Conference 7.286::home_work

Gary

I am also converting my house from electric. But, in my case, I am going
to FHA with a heat pump system This uses ground water as the heat source. In
my case I am using my existing well as the heat source with a closed loop
in the well. 
 
I received estimates for oil (FHA,FHW), gas, heat pumps. I decided on the heat
pump primarily due to future costs (NO fuel costs) and that I would have
air conditioning at no additional cost. The other systems would have incurred
extra costs for the air conditioning. I also will have my hot water off the
same system. 

The initial installation cost for the various types of heating systems were
almost equal and I felt the advantages mentioned (cost, A/C) really swayed
my decision. 

The resale factor is great. Realtors I sopke with indicated I could more
than pay for the system. It seems all electric houses do not sell very well
and homes with an effecient heating ( and cooling) system are an attractive
bonus (especially when new). 
                             
The real benefit with this system is I don't care how cold it gets outside
as the water in the well will remain a constant 51 degrees. With a COP on
the heat pump exceeding 4 (constant) I save an enormous amount of money over
electricity. 

I will let you know the results of this adventure in April......

Send mail if you would like some more info

Merle         

re: .0

A few years back (about 1981) a close aquaintence bought a combination
oil/wood furnace, which uses a single combustion chamber. (He could also
have gotten a coal grate for the furnace). TOtal cost then was $1500 installed.

He was living in NH at the time, and jsut after he installed his furnace,
the local road crew needed a "dumping spot" for trees tehy were knocking
down for a new road widening project. The Long and the short of it was he
got all the wood he needed for a couple of years. 

They'd build a roaring wood fire in the AM (automatic damper),
and if they didn't get home in time (about 6PM) the oil would kick in
 automatically to provide continous FHW. The only "real problem" with tis
set up, is , if the ELECtricity goes off while the wood fire ios burning,
either some "heat dump" for the water is needed, or a electric source for
the water pump so that the furnace doesn't overheat.
            
One of the avantageous of this furnace is that it'll burn any kind of wood.
In this case, since it was "free wood", the quality type was immaterial.

Hurrican season is another nice time to pick up "free" firewood.

 I'm in a position where I have to decide what type of 
heating system I should buy into, FHW or FHA.  I understand 
that FHW is easier to install, thus less expensive. On the 
other hand, FHA lends itself to heat pumps, central 
humidification, etc.,. What's your feelings on this? Which 
system is more comfortable, less expensive to run, comfort, 
etc.,? And for those out there who've made the choice in the 
past, "If you had it to do over again, which system would you 
get?"

Thanks in advance!!

-BD-
  

I'm still new to the area and haven't had much experience with an FHW system.
It would seem that FHA would be cheaper to run since you don't have to keep
the plenum up to temperature like you do a boiler.  On the other hand, FHW
seems to be a little more comfortable since you don't have the drafts that
you get when the blower runs with the FHA system.  I would guess that most
people would consider the FHW the better system since it gives you zoone
control of the temperature and I've never seen that with FHA.  

Disclaimer:  This is all my opinion since I don't have any hard facts to
back it up. 

Bruce Bretschneider

I've lived with both (FHW in my father's house and FHA in my house).

I prefer the FHW.  FHW is quieter, and doesn't have the drafts that FHA has.  I
believe that it also tends to give a more even distribution of heat throughout
the zone being heated.  FHW is also less drying so the need for humidification
may be reduced.

A FHA system can also be set up to supply the whole house with air conditioning
in the summer.  I've read some opinions that it's cheaper to run because
less duct work is needed than the plumbing for the FHW.  Also, the FHA is
less critical about the tightness of joints between pieces.

Rich

	I agree that FHA is noisy, this can be a MAJOR PROBLEM for a
very light sleeper (OK, insomniac) such as myself.  This is my first
winter of trying to run a wood burning stove; I am burning green wood,
which gives somewhat less heat than seasoned wood, but the "central
system" rarely clicks in, more sleeep !  My current belief (naturally) 
is that the convenience features of central systems has been grossly
over sold and I am quite happy to go back to the splitting maul, but
thats another story. 

	The Project_2000/This_Old_House show used an insulating board
material that they cut V-grooves into and then folded and taped to
form insulated ducts, I would guess that somewhat less sound would
travel in such a duct.  Does anyone know anything about this product,
I may be interested ?  It is almost certainly an Owings_Corning
product, since they sponsor the show on Ch 2 in Boston. 

	In Europe it is possible to buy in line thermostats for each
room on a FHW system, essentially giving n zones, where n is the
number of radiators (thin panels, NOT to be confused with the big cast
iron radiators used in a steam system).  To adapt this to baseboard
style would require:- 

	The heating section of the base board would have to be
	bypassed when heat is not required in a particular room, 

	The bypassing line would probably need to be insulated,

	The design of available baseboard radiators probably means 
	that it would not be easy to hide or route the bypassing line.

	This is another system that I could be interested in, if it 
could be easily modelled into the house I already have.  Anyone know 
any details of this ?


	Reg

    I have also lived with both systems (FHW in Mom's house, FHA in
    my current abode) and given a choice would pick FHW. I don't know
    anything about the relative costs of installation or of running
    either system but in terms of comfort and noise the FHW wins
    hands down. The FHW is also easier to tune. My father had put in
    six zones in the house. As such it was possible for my sister to
    have her bedroom 85 while I liked mine (right across the hall) to
    be 65. Even after 2 years with my current FHA system I still
    don't have the dampers tuned to the point where the heat is
    evenly distributed throughout the house. 
    
-mike

I lived with FHW with a couple of zones. Then we built a house, and
had to decide between FHW and FHA. I decided, without much indecision,
that FHA would be much better. And it has... now way would I go the other
way on a new home. We used the insulated duct boards stated in a previous
reply. That way, there is no other sound when the system is on except
for a hardly audible wooosh. On the other hand, the FHW system made
louder creaking noises in the middle of the night when the pipes expanded
and moved within the baseboards. Also, with FHW, you never have an exterior
wall to butt furniture up against... you always have to have it a few inches
away. Our FHA uses metal plenums near the furnace, cut to size, and then
we DIY'ed it. From there, we got these large insulated boards and special
tools to form the other ducts. Analagous to zones in FHW, we sprinkled
a half dozen dampers thru the system. And alot of the room vents are 
adjustable (but beware, if you restrict a room vent, more noise is
introduced). Homes today tend to be well insulated... and we used
non-faced insulation, 9" in the walls, then used a 6 mil polyethelene
vapor barrier that was sealed at overlaps. Thus making a very tight
house... the FHA gave us alot more control of ventilation than FHW.
We had automatic circulation, and controll humidity thru the central
humidifier. A rotary-type air-to-air heat exchanger keeps the
air fresh. For allergics, another plus of FHA is the ability to
install a electrostatic filter to remove pollen. It's no help
when you leave home, but think of the long nights of sleep that become
possible during hayfever season!

Gloves are needed to work with the ductboard... its fiberglass, more
insidious than insulation. Its thick, so use an entire stud space to
go up a wall to get a decent amount of air volume. At accute angles,
vanes are installed inside to help reduce air turbulence. And it sure
is quiet... its noisy in the basement, but no noise travels up the
ductboard. And not only does it keep the air warmer till it gets to
the vent, but it insulates the wall at the same time... metal ductboard
don't do that! 
By the way, the volume within the ducts is less than a corresponding
metal duct, thus air conditioning may not work as well... 

Dave

I have lived with both types of systems. I prefer FHA over the two. Both
have advantages which should be considered. Part of you decision is based
on life style. FHW likes to be set at the same temperature or at the most
changed very seldom. An automatic thermostat is good here so that (for instance)
the termperature can be raised at some time pperiod before you get up in
the morning. The reason is that FHW, because the heat spread depends on natural
air currents set up by the temperature difference between the base board
units and the room, takes longer to heat a room up. If your life style is
such that some one will be in the house all the time, then this will not
be be a problem. However, you cannot expect to get home from work at night,
turn the thermostat up and have the room heat up in short order. The operating
noise of a FHW system is quieter except for when the circulator first starts
up and you get the creaking noise. Another plus for FHW is there is no 
circulation of dust, very important if there are people suffering from alergies
living in the house. Installation cost is going to depend on how many stories
the house has. If it is two stories, you may end up tearing open walls to
get to the second level, if you dont have conveinient closets and other
spaces to go up through. This will be the same case with FHA. The last
installation consider ation is a plumber will also need to be paid (part
of the fee paid to the heating contractor) if he dosn't have one on his payroll
already.
   I like FHA because I believe it is cheaper to operate. Having FHA, you
need a seperate hot water heater, which means you can shut the furnace down
for the summer. FHA systems can come with various options, my favorite being
a humidifier. Air conditioning and dehumidifier are other possibilities.
My only complaint is FHA is generally only one zone, although there are duct
mounted blowers and damper systems which can give more than one zone. This
does not work as well as multizone FHW but there are people that are happy
with it. Another big consideration is the amount of real estate the heat
unit takes up, expecially in a small room. FHA registers are small, while
a FHW baseboard unit is several feet long and will restrict furnature placement
and curtain length and style. As for noise, I found the creaking of the FHW
pipes to be more annoying than the air coming from the FWA register currently
2 feet from my pillow. And the big thing, turn up the thermostat and within
very few minutes, a fan is circulating hot air throught the room.

bill

One good thing about FHA - there's no pipes to freeze up if you lose power
in the middle of winter.

I think a GOOD system of any kind, properly installed, will probably serve 
your needs.
Advantages/disadvantages are your personal preferences.  I had a rather
primitive FHA system in my old house, but I had no real complaints with
the results.  I've got a 4-zone FHW system in the house I've got now and
the flexibility is nice.  I also like the lack of dust and air blowing
around.  However, the problem of "no wall space" can be a hassle.  I've
got old radiators in most of my rooms and I like them better than having
10' of wall occupied by baseboard radiators, the way it is in the "new"
rooms in my house.
My parents have a good steam system and except for the hiss of the vent
valves it's totally silent - no pipe-clanging at all.

All in all, I think I'd choose FHW if I were choosing, but if I got
another kind of system I doubt that I'd worry about it enough to change
it unless it was a real dog.  Like the system some plumbers took out
of a friend's house.  They came up from the cellar with looks of
amazement and told him, "That thing is so old we've never even seen
pictures of one like it!"

Steve

We are making plans for an addition and, having a 40-year-old heating 
system, we believe it might be a good idea to look into updating that 
at the same time.

We have:

American Standard oil unit with relatively new high-efficiency burner.
The system is steam heat, with a single pipe feeding the radiators 
(source and drain in the same pipe).  The house is a two-story cape.

We are considering:

1. A new oil furnace for the same steam heating system (obviously cheapest).

2. Converting to forced how water, using either:

    a. an oil furnace or,

    b. an LP gas furnace (our hot water and dryer are LP gas).  We have 
       a Paloma LP hot water heater and might consider a Paloma FHW unit.

Questions:

1. Does anybody have any experience with using the large (2"?) pipes 
already in the walls for part of a FHW system?

2. Does anybody have any ideas about which of the above systems is 
better (costs less, more reliable, etc.).  Any ideas on brands?

3. Any ideas about who might be good to contact about doing the work?  
We live in the Andover area.

Thanks,

Alex

    	Alex
    
    		I converted from steam to FHW about 6 months ago and
    found it to be a very good move. I was able to use my exisiting
    furnace and burner (because it was cast iron, don't know if this
    is a requirement). However, they pulled out all of the 2" pipe and
    used 3/4" rigid copper for the 1st floor and 1/2" flex for the second
    floor. Needless to say I gained alot of headroom in my cellar. As
    far as using the 2" pipe I found that it was of for steam but was
    not completely water tight, and with the pressure of the water in
    a FHW system I would be willing to bet that you would get leaks,
    My original intent (before deciding to convert) was to install about
    15' of steam baseboard and found the cost to be about $500-$600
    installed, the total cost to convert my entire downstairs and all
    controls for the furnace was $1500. So I was able to cost justify
    by getting rid of all my radiators. Not to mention a more even heat
    throughout the house. I also believe that it is more efficient...
    
    				Steve
    

    I don't know where you are, but if in the area you might try
    Carlisle Fuel Co. in Boylston, Mass.  I've dealt with them for
    about four years now and think they are first-rate.  Phil Carlisle
    will give you straight answers.  Dick Dunn of Dunn Oil Co. in
    Maynard seems pretty good - I've talked with him, but haven't
    had him do any work.  I think he's more willing to try new
    products and systems than Phil Carlisle.  Suggest you talk with
    both of them, Phil to get the conservative point of view and Dick
    for a more "high-tech" point of view, perhaps.
    
    Personally I have no complaints about steam - no circulating pumps
    to wear out, for one thing - but multi-zone FHW sure is nice, if
    you want to spend the bucks.  
    
    Steve

                Another indirect recomendation for Dunn Oil. I have 
        never used them for anything, but a good friend of mine had his 
        heating system completely redone from the cellar up by Dunn and 
        I've heard nothing but praise for the job, the quality of what 
        was put in, and for the always needed "tweaking" to get a new 
        system "just right" (i.e. Dunn was extremely responsive to the 
        slightest complaint). Based on what I've heard, I would go to 
        Dunn to have my system redone (but I live outside his area so I 
        can't).
                
                        /s/     Bob

    I have read a few of the notes on heating system conversions
    and upgrading. My question is, will upgrading a very old steam
    system to FHW uplift the value of the house equal to or greater
    the the cost of the system? The house that I live in is about 
    80 yrs old and I think the heating system is just as old.

    I don't have any figures or anything but I'd bet if you plan on
    staying in that house for a few years, the new heating system would
    pay for itself in savings.
    
    We have an OLD furnace w/steam system in our house too.  When the
    plumbing inspector came out to check out a new water heater he
    told me that 60 cents out of a buck was going up the chimney.
    We haven't used it since.  Strictly wood until we can afford to
    update the heating system, which will probably be FHW.  I can't
    wait to walk through the cellar without ducking under steam pipes
    wrapped in asbestos.                      
    
    					Steve

    Agree, if you stay there a few years the savings will probably pay
    for it anyway; you'll almost certainly be more comfortable in the 
    meantime; and yes, it will increase the value of the house somewhat.
    Whether the increase will be as much as the cost of the system
    depends, I think, on a number of factors such as:
    	a) how bad (really) is the old one;
        b) how good is the new one;
    	c) is the house in a neighborhood where it can reasonably sell
     	   at an increased price, or is its price at the high end of
    	   neighborhood values already
    	d) are their other negative things about the house that are
    	   more important in determining its value than the condition
    	   of the heating system
    	e) etc.
    
    Steve

    My father has been in the sheet metal duct work business for many
    years and I worked my way through high school college making ductwork and
    installing forced air heating systems and airconditioning systems.
    
    I have never liked the use of duct board, it just doesn't hold up
    well. We've had to go into places and put in metal ducts where the
    duct board seams had fallen apart or someone sat on the duct in
    an attic or crawl space. Never did like the idea of fiberglass being
    blown into the living space from the insides of the duct board.
    If it is going to be used I would restrict it to return air ducts
    where the filter has a chance to remove the particles. You can't
    do much better than metal ductwork with an external wrapping of
    insulation if it is installed by a competent metalworker.
    
    As for duct noise much of this can be remove through the use of
    a canvas connection between the furnace or airconditioner and the
    supply and return ducts. They are cheap to put in when the system
    is being installed or replace and work very well. Ducts over about
    12 inches wide on any side should have "crossbrake" bends on the
    side. These are the X bends across the corners that keep the sides
    rigid and stop the ducts from banging when the blower turns on or
    off.
    
    In the area of humidifiers I strongly urge against the type that
    looks like a tray of ceramic plates that mounts directly above the
    furnace. Almost every furnace that we had to replace because of
    burned out combustion chamber was caused by this style humidifier
    leaking water on top of the hot combustion chamber. This leaking
    normally occurs due to mineral deposits in the water and lack of
    cleaning that makes the float valve stick open.
    
    Nick Warchol

Continuing on the same note...

We have decided to go ahead and have the Steam system replaced with FHW.
The 40-year old American standard furnace is about to give out, and the
2" pipes in the basement are quite limiting.  The pipes are asbestos
covered as well, so we have to do *something* in any case (but that's
another story).  Also, extending the existing steam system for the
addition would be difficult. 

We have selected an experienced guy in our area and seen his work, which
is very high quality.  He intends to put in a Weil-McLain furnace and
Weil-McLain baseboards as well. We plan three zones: one for the
upstairs, one for the living/dining/sun room areas and one for the
kitchen and adjoining eating area.  He plans to use circulators. 

He is from the old school, in which everything is verbal (no written 
contracts), but when I mentioned a contract, he was perfectly willing 
to let me write something up to sign.

So...  Do any of you out there have specific ideas about what should be 
in that contract?  Are there specific details about such conversions 
or FHW systems in general that should be specified (i.e., not 
considered normal practice but recommended)?

Also, what about the latest setback controls?  Has anybody had any 
particulary good or bad experiences with the latest crop?

Thanks,

Alex

    	I am considering buying a house down the cape. The house
    has no cellar only a crawl space under the house. My question
    is this, if I want to winterize the house and put in a heating
    system what kind could I put in? I don't want to dig out a
    cellar hole because I'd imagine it would cost a lot of $.
    

    Are you going to be living in the house during the heating
    season?  Or will it be intermittent use, such as on weekends.
    
    [I know I'm gonna catch hell for this one] but you could consider
    electric baseboard heating *IF* you'll only be using the place
    infrequently.
    
    Otherwise you might consider the heating/AC units (forced air)
    that go in your attic [do capes have attics?].  Vent holes are
    then cut into the ceiling and you don't have to rip apart walls
    to install plumbing or ducts.
    
    -al

     Does this house have a bulkhead leading into a small dug-out area
    in the basement? If it does great. If it doesn't, one can be made
    fairly easily and cheaply. All you need is about 6x6 area, to install
    forced hot air furnace and a normal hot water heater. (assuming
    that if this house doesn't have any kind of basement the hot water
    heater is stuck in a closet somewhere)
    
    				Kenny
    

     I agree with .1. For the cost ,simplicity and amount of time in
    use, I would definately go with the electric baseboard.
    
    

    Has anybody run into a problem getting insurance for a home that
    has no central heating source?
    
    The home I moved into had a disaster for a boiler that was really
    dangerous to turn on beside old piping that could give at any 
    moment.  So I shut it down and started removing the old clunker
    cast iron radiators, installing Coal Space heaters, Oil Space 
    heaters, and even a wood stove for back up.  I even have several
    electric oil type plug in heaters for an alternative, waiting to
    hear if Seabrook opens before throwing them in the dump.
    
    I find that coal is the safest, cleanest and warmest for my old
    1840 house that is not insulated and only has cheap storm windows.
    I was recently told that I may have a hard time finding an insurance
    company to underwrite my house under those conditions and am stuck
    with my present company which is jacking up my rates every year.
    
    Comment, suggestions?
    
    GRG

    First a premise. Namely, that it is cheaper to install a system
    designed for intermittent use. If not, my following comments are
    irrelevant.
    
    From an investment point of view it would seem shortsighted to consider
    frequency of use an important criterion. Even if *you* only use
    it intermittently, the people you -eventually- sell it to would
    likely consider such a system inferior.
    Further the rental market may be a consideration. There are lots
    of residences on the Cape that are rented from Sept-June. Putting
    in a system designed for intermittent use might preclude this rental
    option.
    
    				herb

    
    	I have a suggestion, but I don't think you'll like it. You ought
    to start looking around for someone to put in a new central heating
    system for you.  Yes, I know it's going to cost $$$$$, but you'll
    be better off in the long run.  You'll probably have an easier time
    with insurance.  Besides that, if you try to sell the house, the
    prospective buyers probably won't be able to obtain any kind of
    mortgage - unless it's going to be a "summer cottage" type of purchase
    which means a much larger downpayment, less time to pay, and usually
    a higher rate.   This is assuming the house is located in
    Massachusetts, I don't know about other states.  
    
    	Good luck,
    
    	Conni
    
    

re:-1

Yes, Mass does require central heating no matter how many stove you 
have.  I suspect if you wanted to you could probably put in something 
very minimal if you wanted to stay within what's legal.  I do know that 
in NH it IS legal to not have central heat.

-mark

re: 1,2

That's why they made electric baseboard heating.  Cheap to put in, expensive
to run.

Contractor's love'm

    Up here in NH, it may be legal to sell/buy a house without a central
    heating system, but most of the banks and mortgage companies will
    be a bit concerned.  I know of several cases where the seller has
    been required to get the system operational before the mortgage
    would be approved for the buyer.  Another vote for 'doing it right'.
    
    - Mark LePage

      What really bothers me is that the house didn't have a a decent
    water supply (had a artesian drilled and layed the pipe myself
    and repiped the interior), didn't even have a septic system that
    worked (the truck that pumped the tank drove over the leach field
    so I dug it up myself BY HAND and redid that, and had a furnace
    that shook the house every time it switch on (so I ripped that
    out before it blew up).  The bank jumped at our offer and now
    I have a skyrocketed insurance policy because they believe my
    house is four times the purchase price!  
    
        Metropolitan would probably send a team from NYC just to
    tell me they wouldn't insure it or that if I contacted LLoyds
    of London, I might stand a chance.
    
        I agree that I must install a central system, but what kind?
    I still believe oil jump blow through the roof again and the
    house wasn't designed to do oil but coal.  And coal furnaces now
    are usually the conversion type.  I won't burn wood with unlined
    chimneys and gas is my only option.
    
        Looks like I bite the bullet and pay the insurance for a while.
    
        Thanks all
    

    The replies to this note don't really give me enuff info.  I too
    am doing a conversion from electric to FHx.  Anyone have any
    experiences they wanna share with me?  Installers/companies to deal
    with in the Nashua, NH area?
    
    House is custom and well insulated.  Tried to save myself some money
    and went electric when I built it, realizing that I'd pay for it later.
    Now I'm gonna pay for it.
    
    If FHW, I figure on 2 or 3 zones.  One reason to go that way is
    to eliminate the electric water heater (Seabrook is on the way!).
    Cost figures could turn me around, however.
    
    I'm particularly interested in getting a good vendor to do an
    evaluation of my heating requirements.  With my place, I figure
    there will be a lot of options, and I wanna get the best evaluation
    possible.  \ken
    

    Don't know if they work/deliver in Nashua or not, but we used Lorden
    Oil and are very pleased.  They came in under the other two estimates
    by $1000.  When we complained that we were having trouble controlling
    the heat in the kitchen/dining room zone, they split it into two
    zones, NO CHARGE.  We didn't have to pressure them and the agreement
    was for a two zone system.  Now we have a three zone system.  Not
    bad.  We just got our second bill.  For the 7 week period ending
    Nov 11 the bill was $55 for hot water and heat.  We used to pay
    $40 per month for just the hot water.

    My furnace will need to be replaced.  It is FHW by oil with a little
    tank in the ceiling for hot water.  Reasons: I smell oil in the
    basement (just had it cleaned)  
    2.  It spits out black soot
    3.  Vibrates when it comes on 
    4.  Never had enough hot water (small tank in ceiling that provides
    the hot water.
    
    Questions:
    Does the oil company put in the burner or do I get a plumber.
    Where do I go to get information on furnaces (I read through the
    notes file and the two that were recommend were Weil-Maclean and
    Burnham)
    
    Background:  
    The furnace is on contract to be cleaned once a year (I have had
    to have them come back the last few years and have it redone after
    several months).  The repairman who cleaned the furnace last week
    suggested a new burner might be necessary.
    
    Baker Oil in Acton has handled the cleaning & repairs for the 22
    years I have owned the house.  They have tried several times to
    make adjustments so I can get enough hot water but there is nothing
    they can do.  They advised me to get a plumber to flush out the
    tank with acid.
    
    Any advise you can give me will be appreciated.  It's my first time
    around for buying a furnace.  What are the approximate prices?
    
    Do you know of a good plumber in the Acton area.  The plumber we
    used died and his business does only large jobs.  I have the need
    to have some other plumbing work to be done.

    in re plumber I strongly recommend Beaudoin Bros. in West Concord.
    
    In re the rest: Don't consider the following recommendations just
    commentary.
    
    It sounds like you might have a "so called" tankless. They are
    supposedly rated by the nr. of gallons of hot water they deliver
    per minute. e.g 4gal,6gal,...
    Our oil man recommended an acid treatment several years ago, it
    didn't help (done by plumber not by him). 
    He then "discovered" that it is a 4 gallon tankless
    and stated there is no way that a 4 gallon tankless can keep up
    with a modern family. So you might investigate that first. Might
    be a waste of money.
    I now have a 30 gallon holding tank attached.
    It cycles through the tankless and is thermostatically controlled.
    We have all the hot water we need including 4 showers between 6a.m.
    and 7a.m.
    We also have a furnace that burns a lot of oil. It was recently
    measured at 76% efficiency. I understand that new furnaces are up
    to 90% efficiency. In our case that would be a 20% savings in fuel
    costs (76/100 +1/5*(76/100) = 90%) or about 300 gallons of oil a
    year. (a savings of about $210 at current price of 70 cents.)
    So you might want to check on the efficiency as well. 
    
    
    			herb

    
    The oil company I deal with advertises "Burner sales and service",
    so you might want to contact your local Oil/Burner service company
    to see if they can help you get started.
    
    I guess oil prices fluctuate from area to area.  I just had my tank
    filled by People's Fuel in Gardner for $.56/gal.
    
    SJ
    

The furnace is usually replaced by a burner service. They (most of
them) will either handle the plumbing changes themselves or arrange for
the plumber. Get a couple of quotes, make sure that plumbing is included.
22 years on a furnace is good. Yes prices do vary. 

Bill

    In one of my HANDYMAN or HOMEOWNERS magazines there is an article
    on some new oil furnaces that put the so-called efficeincy burners
    to shame.  They not only burn fuel efficeintly but "use" the heat
    more efficeintly also.  One of these funaces comes with a 47gal
    hot water tank.  I'll see if I can find the article and give you
    some more information.  
    
    chris d.

    THANKS EVERYONE 
    
    RE .4 Please do find the infomation if possible.
    
    Also, I did not realize 23 years was good service out of a furnace.

    re 23 yrs of service
    
    Maybe that explains why our efficiency is only 76%. Our furnace
    is 32 yrs old
    
    				h

    MASS SAVE did an energy audit for me, and the efficiency of my 5
    year old burner after a a recent servicing was 82%.  The guy said
    that 86% eff. was about the best you could  get.
    
    SJ
    

    Steve:
    
    Your comment about 86% efficiency surprises me. It takes an awful
    long time to amortize an efficiency increase from 76%(my furnace)
    to 86%! (If my calculations are correct that is only a 13% improvement.)
    I am not disputing it. In fact, I would like corroboration, because
    that suggests that efficiency is a relatively unimportant
    consideration. (I mean what the hell my 32 year old is *still* 76%
    efficient.)
    
    Additional question:
    Are there two separate efficiency measurements
    
    1 for a burner
    another for a furnace?

    				herb

    
    herb,
    
    I'll check the stack of information MASS SAVE left behind, and get
    the guy's name and number.  He said I could call him anytime I had
    a question.  He lives in Athol, MA.
    
    I'll try to answer your question from that info, tho.
    
    Steve
    

    I found the article.  It is in the oct. 1986 issue of Homeowner.
    They named 3 manufacturers: ThermoDynamics Boiler Co., Weil-McLain,
    and Energy Kinetics.  The one they tested was the Energy Kinetics
    System 2000.  They compared figures on retrofits and on new
    instalations and the savings in both cases were 40 to 41% fuel savings.
    If you want more info, here is the address:
    
                     Energy Kinetics
                     Dept. TH
                     RD1
                     Box 103
                     Molasses Hill Rd.
                     Lebanon, N.J.  08833
    
    chris d.

    
    Herb:
    
    The MASS SAVE info didn't say much about the efficiency except that
    they are talking about "combustion efficiency".  I would think that
    this means the burner efficiency.  I'm not sure what "furnace efficiency
    would mean.  Are you thinking about the ability of the boiler to
    retain heat?
    
    "For further information call your MASS SAVE hotline"
                                                                   
    
        Springfield    (800) 322-2754
        Worcester      (800) 252-8672
        Woburn         (800) 792-5260
        Somerset       (800) 642-7542
    
                                                         
    
    If you want the name and # of my auditor, send me mail.
    
    Steve
                                     
    

    re .11
    Somewhere I heard -or read- that there are two different efficiencies
    (ahah it was our oil delivery man who said it)
    one for the furnace, another for the burner.
    In any case, when the "MASS SAVE kind of person" came to our house
    a couple of weeks ago, she stuck some implement into a hole -which
    she enlarged- in the flue between the furnace and the chimney. Several
    minutes later she pronounced the efficiency at 76% and that minimum
    acceptable efficiency is 75%. 
    I don't know which efficiency she was measuring. Matter of fact,
    as I remember, she didn't know.
    
    			herb

    My father's furnace acted the same way. I found that his problem
    was that the asbestos seals between the boiler sections had 
    deteriorated. The furnace "shook" as it ran and there was a bad
    smell of fuel oil. The bad smell turned out to be exhaust.
    
    He ended up converting to gas and getting an entirely new unit.
    The new unit was about one third the size of the old and put
    out more BTU's.

    sd

    
    Herb, he did the same thing with my flue, and this was the COMBUSTION
    efficiency, which i "think" is the burner eff.
    
    Steve
    

    
    I prefer FHW because you don't need a electric water heater, which
    can really jack up your electric bill. And (like someone already
    mentioned) it's not as noisey.
    
    Jack

    re .14  From what I've read, burner efficeincy is how completely
    the fuel is being burned.  Furnace efficeincy is how much heat is
    going up the chimney.  Some of the super high efficeincy furnaces,
    like the one I mentioned in an earlier reply in this note, have
    a "heat purge".  I'm not exactly sure how it works but it has something
    to do with storing remaining hot water after the furnace shuts off
    for later use.
    
    chris d.

As mentioned in other notes, we recently replaced our furnace and 
experienced a lot of the confusion indicated in this note.  As I 
understand it, here are the parameters with regard to oil steam or 
forced hot water systems:

1. Efficiency of burner

2. Design/efficiency of boiler

3. Radiators or baseboard size, design, adjustment, etc. 

4. Insulation of boiler and pipes

5. Flue

1. Burner efficiency is the only thing that Mass Save measures (based on 
our audit, at least).  For oil, if you're getting 81 or 82% that's 
considered quite good.  But that is only a small part of the story.

2. Modern boilers are small and are carefully designed to maximize the
heat input into the boiler, and minimize the amount of water that has to
be heated.  The smaller the amount of water, the faster it can be
heated. The faster it is heated, the shorter time the furnace must be on
(and the more responsive your system is). Also a small volume of water
is easier to insulate and represents less waste of energy when it does
dissipate.  Therefore, simply changing a 20-year old boiler and keeping
the same burner could save you $$, because you take advantage of much
smaller, more efficient, and better insulated techniques. (We kept our
Carlin burner when we converted to the Weil-McLain boiler.)  [For those
of you with gas, Paloma makes a totally tankless heater--it simply heats
a coiled portion of the piping itself; there's no reservoir to insulate
or dissipate.] 

3. Radiators may or may not be sized correctly for your rooms, so that
some rooms can be overheated while others are cold.  An overheated room
is obviously a waste of energy (unless you want it that way).  Steam
radiators can be adjusted in some systems by setting the escape valve to
a slower rate in those rooms that need less heat.  Baseboards often have
a damper type adjustment to control convection.   There are new units
for FHW systems that employ a two-speed fan which can be either left
entirely off (in which case there is very little heat) or left in one of
the other positions.  We use such a unit in our sun room.  At the
"boost" speed, it warms VERY quickly. 

4. Insulation is extremely important in figuring cost.  Old furnaces are
often giant radiators for the basement.  In our case, the furnace
radiated so much heat that the plumber suggested that we *NOT* insulate
our basement FHW pipes until after we see how the basement is in winter
without that furnace.   Sure enough, we *need* those FHW pipes to keep
enough heat in our basement so we don't have to turn on quartz heaters
when we're down there!  (We're down there enough so that the electric
bill from auxiliary heaters could be sizable.)  Insulating the pipes in 
the wall risers could be especially important if the wall is an outside 
one.  But insulating radiator pipes in a room you are trying to heat 
anyway is generally not necessary or recommended.

5. Automatic Flue dampers can be used to minimize the loss of heat up the 
flue.  We had one for our gas FHA system in our other house.   However, 
the information we got was that only one company makes them for oil and 
that they are not very reliable.  We decided against one for the 
moment.  (There's ample info about such units in Consumer Reports.)

Hope the above helps,

Alex

    I am going to wait until after the first of the year to start getting
    prices & sending for the information.
    
    I will keep you posted on what I find out from my search.
    
    Thanks to you all - HAPPY HOLIDAYS
    
    WILMA

    There is a good article on furnace efficiency in the January Consumers
    Report.

    RE: .10 
    
    A local source for System 2000's is Patriot Heating, Concord. 
    Bill Graham is the owner. The 2000 heats only 2.5 gals of water
    at a time to 210 and then circulates it. When I replaced my entire
    heating system, I had several bids. The System 2000 was the 
    most expensive, but only by a little, and it's claims of increased
    efficiency were such that I decided to get it. Also, I felt I 
    could trust Bill Graham more than the other heating contractors.
    My original oil guy turned out to be a jerk, who really didn't want
    me to replace anything. So far, I've been very impressed with it.
    There are only about 35 units in operation in this area, so I know
    not too many people know about it. But in my situation it is going
    pay for itself quickly. 
    
    Someone mentioned that efficiency can mean both how much of the
    oil is burned and how much heat is produced. This is true, just
    because your burner burns the oil with 80% efficiency, it doesn't
    mean you are getting the most heat out of your system. If all of
    the heat just goes up the chimney, it doesn't matter how efficiently
    the oil was burned. MASS Save usually just measures the efficiency
    of the burner, which is easy to measure. 
    
    Technically, a furnace is only used to heat air, as in forced hot
    air systems. In a forced hot water system, the unit is called 
    a boiler, even though the water doesn't come to a boil. 
    
    You can get more info on the System 2000 by calling Patriot Heating
    369-3396. 
    
    

    Alot has been said in this file about the pros & cons of heating 
    systems including how to bleed this... and where do I get this part..
    and how do I add another zone....
    
    But nowhere (can I find) a 'summary' of the EFFICIENCIES of different
    heating systems common in 1&2 family dwellings.
     
    That is...."The ratio of the effective or useful output to the total
                input in a system"
    
    It might be easiest to focus on 2 or 3 of the most common heating systems
    and 2 of the most common fuels since boiler and furnace manufacturers
    usually hire independent test labs (such as Brookfield labs) to
    run efficiency tests with published technical data to back up test
    results. Also, it will be necessary to include 'manufacturers names'
    and system 'model numbers'. Lets not confuse ourselves with heat
    loss factors and oil or gas consumption as this leads to economical
    results. Realize that one system; while less efficient than another
    ---may be cheaper(at a given time) to run because of oil or natural
    gas prices. What we'd like to establish in this note is what is
    the most efficient system? :      FHW-- by-- Oil or Gas  
                                              or              
                                      FHA-- by-- Oil or Gas
    
    Steam also enters in somewhere with boilers.
    
    Also, I realize that the eff. numbers...for instance w/ FHW by OIL          
    are going to differ slightly due to stack temperatures etc. but
    perhaps we can establish a standard to use in coming up with the
    data. What do you own and 'ideally' how efficient is it capable
    of performing?
    
    Mark
    is configured alittle different than for FHW.     
              

    The most efficient system I've seen is FHA by gas with 97% efficiency
    using a secondary heat exchanger.
    
    Electric, of course, is 100% efficient, but will never approach the
    operating cost of the most inefficient gas or oil unit. 

    I think that in many conditions, heat pumps are more than %100
    efficient.  They spend energy to move heat from the outside to the
    inside.  Of course, if it gets too cold, the standard air-air heat
    pumps do no better than electric resistance heating.  
    
    The best efficiency for fueled systems is the 97% stated before
    for FHA by gas.  Is there any reason why the technology which allows
    this for gas can't be used for oil?
    
                                        August G. Reinig

    I think "more than 100% efficient" is a little misleading.  If
    that were really true, you'd have perpetual motion and last time
    I checked all the laws of thermodynamics were still valid.  Using
    the same logic, oil burners are greater than 100% efficiency because
    you put in a small amount of electrical energy and get a a great
    deal more energy out.  In one case the "extra" energy comes from
    burning oil, in the other case the "extra" energy comes from the
    surrounding air.  But you always lose - somewhere.
    
    Gas burners can be more efficient than oil burners because the stack
    temperature can be lower.  With oil, you need to maintain a minimum
    stack temperature of (I think) about 350+ degrees to prevent
    condensation of crud in the chimney, etc.  With gas, the products of
    combustion are all gases and all you need is barely enough heat
    to get the gases up the chimney.  In fact, I guess the new gas furnaces
    cool the gases to just about room temperature before exhausting
    them, condensing out the water vapor in the process and extracting
    all the possible heat.  With them, you hardly need a chimney - just
    a floor drain for the condensed water.

    I think by "efficiency", most people are talking about energy
    *that they have to pay for* vs. the amount of energy derived,
    not the thermodynamic efficiency.
    
    Since you don't have to pay for the "extra" energy from the air/water
    in a heat exchanger, you can get greater than 100% efficiency.
    
    -al

    
      Currently my house is electric, but we heat with a wood stove
    in the basement.  My husband and I wish to convert the house to
    either gas or oil but we don't know the pros or cons for either.
    I guess I am looking for any suggestions, and real-life stories
    from people who have converted and why they chose what they did.
    
      Also please add whether you have FHA or FHW and why you chose
    it.  We really need help for we do not want to go through another
    winter of lugging in wood from the back through the S N O W!
     
      Thanks.
         Tammy
    

      If you currently have gas in the house, go with it.  (It sounds
    like you don't.)  Gas heating systems cost less to buy, use a metal
    flue pipe for a chimney (or plastic for the new super-efficient
    units),  and don't require a storage tank.  Oil systems cost more
    (about $400 more), require a masonry or insulated metal chimney ($1
    per ft.), and need a storage tank ($150 or more).  Check with the
    gas co. to see what it will cost to connect to the main.  We checked
    about ten yrs. ago and Boston Gas wanted $980 plus whatever it cost
    for the trench and pipe to connect the house to the main.  We went
    with oil. ($700 more for furnace/chimney/tank, but $1000 less than
    gas for fuel supply)  I wouldn't even consider bottled gas ($$$).
      I prefer hot air heat (I've had hot air, steam, & hot water) because
    it heats quicker, doesn't have stand-by losses (when you don't need
    heat it isn't running trying to keep 15 gals. of water hot), and
    you can add humidifiers, air cleaners, and air conditioning later.
    Also, if you get a leak in a hot air system it doesn't matter much,
    not so with hot water.  And, if you go to Florida for a week and
    the power in your town goes out for a couple of hours you don't
    come back to a frozen heating system.  If you have a one story house
    this should be easy to install.  If you have a two story house  
    see if you can run ducts up through closets, etc. to a good location in
    each room upstairs.  If you can't get air ducts upstairs conveniently,
    then hot water would be easier to install (3/4" pipe can get through
    places that 6" duct can't).
      I don't think steam heat is a reasonable alternative for a new
    installation.    
      One other thing, hot air heat can be set up to move the heated
    air from a wood stove through the whole house.

    Jim D.

    
    I heated for 7 seasons with wood so I know what you mean about dragging
    it in from he back yard through the snow.  The last 2 seasons we
    used natural gas FHW.  We like FHW over FHA because it seems to
    be a more even heat and much less noisy.  With FHA you need blowers
    to circulate the air creating the noise.  Also there tends to be
    "hot spots" around the registers.  Also I know people that have
    gas FHW with wood.  From what I have "heard" this works very well.
    
    
    						KO

      Good point, I didn't think of multi-fuel systems.  If your wood stove
    is in the basement or if the chimney it connects to extends down
    to the basement then you could remove it and replace it with a furnace
    or boiler that burns gas/wood or oil/wood.  This would save the cost
    of a new chimney and still allow you to burn wood when you wanted. 
      If your wood stove is in good condition and the chimney is not in
    a good spot for the furnace then this would probably not be cost
    effective.
        
    Jim D.

	Carefull with the multi-fuel systems.  If you have an existing
	chimney with only a single flue you may be required to install
	another flue (chimney?).  You should check local codes.  Most
	places won't allow you to run gas and wood (or any other solid
	fuel) in the same flue.

	-gary

    Take the money it wood cost to convert to oil/gas, depreciation,
    maintenance cost, etc., and invest it in some high yield account.
    
    Use the interest to pay the difference in the bill and enjoy the
    convenience of electricity.  It's the wave of the future.
    
    Gerry (all electric and very well isulated house)
    

	I agree with Garry, however there is a very REAL impression by
	people that an all electric house is taboo.  It reflects in your
	appraisal  ... beleive me.  

	I too have an all electric house and purposely went that way.
	The builder wanted 5000 extra for an FHA or FHW with either
	oil or gas.  The design of the house is passive solar with 
	a main heating source from a good (read 75 degrees in the winter)
	coal stove.  I have been in the house for two winters.  Last year
	my electric bills in the winter were Nov/$72, Dec/$88, Jan/$102,
	Feb/$92, Mar/$110, Apr/$105  and this year's electric bill has
	averages about $95 for those months.  The reason the Spring bills
	are higher is that its too warm (40-50 degrees) to use the coal
	stove regularly and the electric heat pops on more.  I burn less
	than 3 tons of coal (@ $120 a ton).  I don't worry about pipes
	freezing or repairing a furnace.   The house is well insulated.


	Chuck    

Sure, electricity is the wave of the future. But I can see you people don't
have to buy electricity from FG&E (Fitchburg Gas and Electric) still the 
"HIGHEST RATES IN THE COUNTRY".


						ROBERT

    Just for curiosity's sake, what are their rates?
    
    In the long run, oil, gas, electric, wood, or coal prices go
    up and down.  When one is significantly cheaper than the other
    everybody starts using that fuel and demand goes up as do the
    prices.  If you can get the fuel for nothing (like I can get wood
    for nothing) and you don't mind the work, then you can save some
    money.
    
    I have the wood but rarely use it.  (mostly in the fireplace which
    cost me more than not using it at all.)
    
    Mr. AMP
    
    Gerry
    

    I just started using my newly installed, FHW baseboard heat, two-zone
    system. I previously has a 1-zone (no valve) setup. A few notes
    worth making for anyone out there planning to do something along
    those lines (only suggestions)
    
    	1. DIGITAL thermostats REQUIRE a relay for operation with a
    		zone valve (most DIGITAL thermostats CANT handle the
    		intermittent and usually .9-1.0A current)
    
    	2. Sears has a nice SIMPLE relay #9207, through the cat $12.99
    
    	3. Be careful NOT to overheat the Zone valve during installation.
    		I OPENed the valve using the manual lever on it to
    		keep the rubber seal from being seated DURING the high-heat
    		sweating of the valve.
    
    	4. Use a cut-off valve on BOTH ends of the loops. Makes your
    		troubleshooting/mainanence jobs easier.
    
    	5. Flush the lines VERY WELL before you finish it up. New lines
    		tend to have resin and debris in the lines that can
    		cause problems later.
    
    
    Mark

We've owned houses using both and, as another noter noted, gas is certainly
the most convenient if the lines exist on your street now; Once you have it
hooked up you can forget about delivery problems (reasonably speaking that
is). During the energy crises/oil embargo of a few years back the house we
lived in had an oil-fired furnace. You can imagine our concern about getting
oil delivered. I believe that gas users, although possibly worried about
getting shut off, weren't affected (anyone care to comment)? 

A drawback with piped-in gas could be that the user is at the mercy of the
supplier regarding cost.

With oil you need space for a storage tank. Is your basement entrance large
enough to accomodate a tank ? Do you have room in the basement for this ?
I'm not familiar with the technology advancements of oil burners, but our gas
fhw furnace measures approx. 3'x2'x2' and heats a 7-room, 2-story house.

If you only have one flue in your chimney you'll have to give up the wood
stove. A recent (possibly a re-run) showing of 'This Old House' included
mention of a chimney-less gas furnace.

The only drawback with fhw is the incredible number of pipes running here and
there. Also, it's simple enough to run pipes to the first floor from the
basement, but if you've a multi-story home this may not be too easy if you
want the pipes hidden.

Our fha system in a previous, 30-year old, home was noticeably noisy. Couch
potatoes (not me) get annoyed with having to turn the TV up/down as required
(mabye it should be wired to the burner). Newer systems are possibly quieter.

Hope this helps.

Russ Gill

I had a close call with my furnace this week. About 5 years ago I had the 
burner converted from oil to gas. I had J.H. Adams Heating Co. of Worcester
Ma. install the burner. They told me that gas burns clean and the furnace 
should never need cleaning. I had the furnace cleaned shortly after that to 
get rid of the soot build-up from when it burned oil. Up until this week I 
haven't had any problems.

About 2 weeks ago I started noticing a funny smell every once and awhile when 
the heat came on. I couldn't find the source. I planned to have it checked, 
but I never got around to it. Tuesday night, (a very cold night), when the 
furnace came on it didn't sound right and the smell was VERY stronge. I went 
down cellar to find flames coming out around where the burner bolts to the 
furnace. I shut off the burner and called the Gas Company. When the guy from 
the Gas company saw the furnace his first question was, "Who installed this 
mess?"

It turns out that they conversion was never done correctly. The vent pipe 
should have been replaced. Gas uses a samller one. The little door that swings 
open (venturi, I think), on the vent pipe was to big and in the wrong 
location. Also the burner had to big a nozzle on the end of it resulting in 
wasted gas. The fire box was destroyed because the flame was to hot, and the
soot from it was plugging the vent pipe. I had to have the inside of the 
furnance replace, a new nozzle on the burner, (I caught it before it damaged 
the burner), and a new vent pipe and venturi. The only good thing was that I
was not sleeping yet and shut it down before the house filled with fumes or 
started on fire.

The Gas company is writing a report for me on the &*%$-up installation. I 
talked to a lawyer and he didn't think my chances of sueing were very good.
He suggested small claims court if I did anything. I will send a letter to the 
heating company and to the Better Business Bureau, once I get the report from 
the Gas Company. The thing that really burns me (no pun intended), is that the 
Heating company has been around for a while and I thought had a good 
reputation. The guy from the Gas Co. saud he sees messed up jobs all the time.
Next time I will get references. 

Have you been dealing w/ J.H. Adams since the change -over installation ?
If so, you'd think that after reviewing the work that was performed....
and if the workmanship was obviously shabby or incorrect, they would tend 
to want to make you happy...seeing you're a regular customer.

In any event, pull the original work order, review it, secure the letter
from the gas co. that SPECIFICALLY states what they feel is shabby or
incorrect....then approach J.H. Adams with your concerns. If they are a 
reputable outfit chances are they will investigate your findings and respond 
in positive fashion. OR > you at that time may choose to proceed with a 
different course of action. Remember, your beef is w/ J.H. Adams Co.....
not w/ the BBB or some lawyer. Do not unvail any of the big guns until you
have given Adams Co. a reasonable chance to respond. They can't check out
all the installations performed by their crews. Sometimes shoddy work
slips by. If you go in talking about lawyers and the BBB... people tend to
take offense and might tell you where to get off before you get a chance
to state your case.

If you 'handle it properly', and they're a reputable firm, and a problem IS
identified....they will go out of their way to please.

Good Luck and let us know how you make out.

MArk
    

    Expensive and more to come!
    
    Any electric heat is the most expensive way to heat a building.
    This is not a major issue for a weekend ski condo, but on a long
    term occupancy, especially at 70+. 
    
    Also, beware of rate shock. The electric rates in NH. and other
    areas to be supplied by Seabrook are going to get hit with major
    rate increases to pay for it! 
    
    There are small highly efficient gas boilers, that can supply
    hot water radiators. Much less costly to operate, and no
    chimmney is needed. More expensive to install, but will pay back
    reasonably fast, especially for a "Hot House"
    
    A oil or gas forced air system will bring up the house temperature
    fast, (air temp, that is). But is less efficient, than hot water,
    and difficult to install as a retrofit.
    
    Send me mail if you have further questions.
    Richard Chase	Morris::chase
    

    Richard, 
    
    Are you trying to say that your house is expensive to heat because
    you are stuck with electric heat? And that to retrofit would be
    too expensive?
    
    May I recommend an energy audit from your local utilities folks?
    We live in Colorado Springs. We get hot, dry summers and sometimes
    chill winters. The city utility folks did an energy audit and
    recommended some caulking, addition to our roof insulation, add
    sofit and roof top vents. Result is that our energy bills is reduced
    and running more effeciently.
    
    Now only if they can reduce our water bill for the lawn, I'd be
    happier. (No, I won't take out the lawn and put in rocks as some
    of my neighbors did.)
    
    /cal

    This was ment as a reply to note 898, but got missplaced. I donot
    have electric heat (Thank Goodness!) But my in-laws do. 
    In New England we have the privilage of paying for Seabrook etc.
    Our electricity cost 11c per KWHr, in the town that we live in.
    
    Sorry for the missplacement and confusion.
    
    Regards
    Richard Chase
    

Why is it that you think that a Hot Air heating system is less efficient
then a How Water heating system?

Jim.

    As stated in the previous reply, the laws of thermodynamics
    do allow more energy to be delivered in your house than you
    pay the power company for.  Heat pumps move energy from an
    outside source into your house and may be up to 3 times as
    efficient as "100% efficient" electric heat. Too bad they
    don't work well in cold weather, thus they are seldom found
    where the temperature drops much below 40 F.
    
    The very high efficiency gas heaters take the normal stack
    fumes and PUMP them through a second stainless steel heat
    exchanger, the heat being exchanged with the return air.
    This cools the fumes below the dew point of the fume mixture
    and grabs all of the heat of vaporization from the water
    vapor which is a by-product of combustion.  These furnaces
    need a drain since they produce quite a bit of liquid water.
    The remaining fumes are generally pumped through a 2" PLASTIC
    vent pipe to the outside.  Oil is much too dirty to try this
    game.
    
    - gerry

The following data was computed via DECalc and is useful in comparing costs
of various fuels.  The unit costs are based upon the 86-87 season in the
area I live in.  To determine the costs in your area look up the multiplier
for your fuel and efficiency and multiply it by your unit cost.

If you wish to use DECalc directly, the next reply is a dump file. Extract
it and edit off the notes header.  Enter DECalc and use the "\ S C" command.
I am not a DECalc instructor so you are on your own. Improvements to the
spreadsheet are most welcome.

Common efficiencies are:


	Coal & Wood (good stove)	50-60%

	Oil (old)			60%
	    (new)			70-80%

	Gas (old)			65%
	    (new)			70-80%
	    (high tech hot air)		95%
            (unvented)			100%

	Propane - same as gas

	Electric 			100%
          heat pumps			200%                          

	Kerosene (space)		65%
		 (unvented)		100%


- gerry

      



Fuel             Cost/Unit     BTU/unit  % Eff  Multiplier   Cost/100k BTU

Coal (ton)         130.000   29,000,000     50      .00689             .89
                                            55      .00626             .81
                                            60      .00574             .74
                                            65      .00530             .68
                                            70      .00492             .64
                                            75      .00459             .59

Hardwood (cord)     90.000   21,000,000     50      .00952             .85
                                            55      .00865             .77
                                            60      .00793             .71
                                            65      .00732             .65
                                            70      .00680             .61
                                            75      .00634             .57

Electric (KWH)        .065        3,410    100    29.32551            1.90
  Heat pumps ->                            150    19.55034            1.27
                                           200    14.66275             .95
                                           250    11.73020             .76
                                           300     9.77517             .63

Oil (gal)             .900      137,400     60     1.21300            1.09
                                            65     1.11969            1.00
                                            70     1.03971             .93
                                            75      .97040             .87
                                            80      .90975             .81
                                            85      .85623             .77

Propane (gal)        1.000       92,300     60     1.80570            1.80
                                            65     1.66680            1.66
                                            70     1.54774            1.54
                                            75     1.44456            1.44
                                            80     1.35427            1.35
                                            85     1.27461            1.27
                                            90     1.20380            1.20
  High Tech ->                              95     1.14044            1.14
  Unvented  ->                             100     1.08342            1.08

Gas (therm)           .650      100,000     60     1.66666            1.08
                                            65     1.53846            1.00
                                            70     1.42857             .92
                                            75     1.33333             .86
                                            80     1.25000             .81
                                            85     1.17647             .76
                                            90     1.11111             .72
  High Tech ->                              95     1.05263             .68
  Unvented  ->                             100     1.00000             .65

Kerosene (gal)       1.350      139,000     60     1.19904            1.61

!DECalc Version  2.2 
! Setting globals for PRIMARY WINDOW
\GC10
\GFLL
\GFVGR
\GFT
\GFU
\GML
\GTC
\GRA
! Restoring individual column widths for PRIMARY WINDOW
\FCA N15
\FCC N12
\FCD N6
\FCE N11
\FCF N15
! Restoring PRIMARY WINDOW box formats and contents
|A1 "Fuel
!"Fuel
|B1 "Cost/Unit
!"Cost/Unit
\FB N R
|C1 "BTU/unit
!"BTU/unit
\FB N R
|D1 "% Eff
!"% Eff
\FB N R
|E1 "Multiplier
!"Multiplier
\FB N R
|F1 "Cost/100k BTU
!"Cost/100k BTU
\FB N R
|A3 "Coal (ton)
!"Coal (ton)
|B3  130
! 1.30000000000000E+02
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|C3  29000000
! 2.90000000000000E+07
\FB N D ZZZ,ZZZ,ZZZ
|D3  50
! 5.00000000000000E+01
|E3  100000/((D3/100)*C3)
! 6.89655172413793E-03
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F3  B3*E3
! 8.96551724137931E-01
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B4
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|D4  55
! 5.50000000000000E+01
|E4  100000/((D4/100)*C3)
! 6.26959247648903E-03
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F4  B3*E4
! 8.15047021943574E-01
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B5
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|D5  60
! 6.00000000000000E+01
|E5  100000/((D5/100)*C3)
! 5.74712643678161E-03
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F5  B3*E5
! 7.47126436781609E-01
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B6
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|D6  65
! 6.50000000000000E+01
|E6  100000/((D6/100)*C3)
! 5.30503978779841E-03
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F6  B3*E6
! 6.89655172413793E-01
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B7
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|D7  70
! 7.00000000000000E+01
|E7  100000/((D7/100)*C3)
! 4.92610837438424E-03
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F7  B3*E7
! 6.40394088669951E-01
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B8
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|D8  75
! 7.50000000000000E+01
|E8  100000/((D8/100)*C3)
! 4.59770114942529E-03
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F8  B3*E8
! 5.97701149425287E-01
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B9
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|A10 "Hardwood (cord)
!"Hardwood (cord)
|B10  90
! 9.00000000000000E+01
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|C10  21000000
! 2.10000000000000E+07
\FB N D ZZZ,ZZZ,ZZZ
|D10  50
! 5.00000000000000E+01
|E10  100000/((D10/100)*C10)
! 9.52380952380952E-03
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F10  B10*E10
! 8.57142857142857E-01
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B11
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|D11  55
! 5.50000000000000E+01
|E11  100000/((D11/100)*C10)
! 8.65800865800866E-03
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F11  B10*E11
! 7.79220779220779E-01
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B12
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|D12  60
! 6.00000000000000E+01
|E12  100000/((D12/100)*C10)
! 7.93650793650794E-03
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F12  B10*E12
! 7.14285714285714E-01
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B13
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|D13  65
! 6.50000000000000E+01
|E13  100000/((D13/100)*C10)
! 7.32600732600733E-03
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F13  B10*E13
! 6.59340659340659E-01
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B14
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|D14  70
! 7.00000000000000E+01
|E14  100000/((D14/100)*C10)
! 6.80272108843537E-03
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F14  B10*E14
! 6.12244897959184E-01
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B15
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|D15  75
! 7.50000000000000E+01
|E15  100000/((D15/100)*C10)
! 6.34920634920635E-03
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F15  B10*E15
! 5.71428571428571E-01
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B16
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|A17 "Electric (KWH)
!"Electric (KWH)
|B17  .065
! 6.50000000000000E-02
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|C17  3410
! 3.41000000000000E+03
\FB N D ZZZ,ZZZ,ZZZ
|D17  100
! 1.00000000000000E+02
|E17  100000/((D17/100)*C17)
! 2.93255131964809E+01
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F17  B17*E17
! 1.90615835777126E+00
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|A18 "  Heat pumps ->
!"  Heat pumps ->
|B18
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|D18  150
! 1.50000000000000E+02
|E18  100000/((D18/100)*C17)
! 1.95503421309873E+01
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F18  B17*E18
! 1.27077223851417E+00
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B19
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|D19  200
! 2.00000000000000E+02
|E19  100000/((D19/100)*C17)
! 1.46627565982405E+01
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F19  B17*E19
! 9.53079178885631E-01
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B20
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|D20  250
! 2.50000000000000E+02
|E20  100000/((D20/100)*C17)
! 1.17302052785924E+01
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F20  B17*E20
! 7.62463343108504E-01
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B21
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|D21  300
! 3.00000000000000E+02
|E21  100000/((D21/100)*C17)
! 9.77517106549365E+00
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F21  B17*E21
! 6.35386119257087E-01
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B22
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|A23 "Oil (gal)
!"Oil (gal)
|B23  .90
! 9.00000000000000E-01
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|C23  137400
! 1.37400000000000E+05
\FB N D ZZZ,ZZZ,ZZZ
|D23  60
! 6.00000000000000E+01
|E23  100000/((D23/100)*C23)
! 1.21300339640951E+00
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F23  B23*E23
! 1.09170305676856E+00
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B24
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|D24  65
! 6.50000000000000E+01
|E24  100000/((D24/100)*C23)
! 1.11969544283955E+00
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F24  B23*E24
! 1.00772589855559E+00
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B25
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|D25  70
! 7.00000000000000E+01
|E25  100000/((D25/100)*C23)
! 1.03971719692244E+00
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F25  B23*E25
! 9.35745477230193E-01
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B26
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|D26  75
! 7.50000000000000E+01
|E26  100000/((D26/100)*C23)
! 9.70402717127608E-01
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F26  B23*E26
! 8.73362445414847E-01
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B27
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|D27  80
! 8.00000000000000E+01
|E27  100000/((D27/100)*C23)
! 9.09752547307132E-01
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F27  B23*E27
! 8.18777292576419E-01
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B28
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|D28  85
! 8.50000000000000E+01
|E28  100000/((D28/100)*C23)
! 8.56237691583183E-01
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F28  B23*E28
! 7.70613922424865E-01
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B29
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|A30 "Propane (gal)
!"Propane (gal)
|B30  1
! 1.00000000000000E+00
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|C30  92300
! 9.23000000000000E+04
\FB N D ZZZ,ZZZ,ZZZ
|D30  60
! 6.00000000000000E+01
|E30  100000/((D30/100)*C30)
! 1.80570603105814E+00
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F30  B30*E30
! 1.80570603105814E+00
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B31
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|D31  65
! 6.50000000000000E+01
|E31  100000/((D31/100)*C30)
! 1.66680556713059E+00
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F31  B30*E31
! 1.66680556713059E+00
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B32
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|D32  70
! 7.00000000000000E+01
|E32  100000/((D32/100)*C30)
! 1.54774802662127E+00
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F32  B30*E32
! 1.54774802662127E+00
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B33
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|D33  75
! 7.50000000000000E+01
|E33  100000/((D33/100)*C30)
! 1.44456482484651E+00
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F33  B30*E33
! 1.44456482484651E+00
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B34
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|D34  80
! 8.00000000000000E+01
|E34  100000/((D34/100)*C30)
! 1.35427952329361E+00
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F34  B30*E34
! 1.35427952329361E+00
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B35
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|D35  85
! 8.50000000000000E+01
|E35  100000/((D35/100)*C30)
! 1.27461602192340E+00
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F35  B30*E35
! 1.27461602192340E+00
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B36
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|D36  90
! 9.00000000000000E+01
|E36  100000/((D36/100)*C30)
! 1.20380402070543E+00
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F36  B30*E36
! 1.20380402070543E+00
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|A37 "  High Tech ->
!"  High Tech ->
|B37
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|D37  95
! 9.50000000000000E+01
|E37  100000/((D37/100)*C30)
! 1.14044591435251E+00
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F37  B30*E37
! 1.14044591435251E+00
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|A38 "  Unvented  ->
!"  Unvented  ->
|B38
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|D38  100
! 1.00000000000000E+02
|E38  100000/((D38/100)*C30)
! 1.08342361863489E+00
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F38  B30*E38
! 1.08342361863489E+00
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B39
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|A40 "Gas (therm)
!"Gas (therm)
|B40  .65
! 6.50000000000000E-01
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|C40  100000
! 1.00000000000000E+05
\FB N D ZZZ,ZZZ,ZZZ
|D40  60
! 6.00000000000000E+01
|E40  100000/((D40/100)*C40)
! 1.66666666666667E+00
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F40  B40*E40
! 1.08333333333333E+00
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B41
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|D41  65
! 6.50000000000000E+01
|E41  100000/((D41/100)*C40)
! 1.53846153846154E+00
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F41  B40*E41
! 1.00000000000000E+00
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B42
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|D42  70
! 7.00000000000000E+01
|E42  100000/((D42/100)*C40)
! 1.42857142857143E+00
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F42  B40*E42
! 9.28571428571429E-01
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B43
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|D43  75
! 7.50000000000000E+01
|E43  100000/((D43/100)*C40)
! 1.33333333333333E+00
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F43  B40*E43
! 8.66666666666667E-01
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B44
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|D44  80
! 8.00000000000000E+01
|E44  100000/((D44/100)*C40)
! 1.25000000000000E+00
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F44  B40*E44
! 8.12500000000000E-01
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B45
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|D45  85
! 8.50000000000000E+01
|E45  100000/((D45/100)*C40)
! 1.17647058823529E+00
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F45  B40*E45
! 7.64705882352941E-01
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B46
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|D46  90
! 9.00000000000000E+01
|E46  100000/((D46/100)*C40)
! 1.11111111111111E+00
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F46  B40*E46
! 7.22222222222222E-01
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|A47 "  High Tech ->
!"  High Tech ->
|B47
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|D47  95
! 9.50000000000000E+01
|E47  100000/((D47/100)*C40)
! 1.05263157894737E+00
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F47  B40*E47
! 6.84210526315789E-01
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|A48 "  Unvented  ->
!"  Unvented  ->
|B48
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|D48  100
! 1.00000000000000E+02
|E48  100000/((D48/100)*C40)
! 1.00000000000000E+00
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F48  B40*E48
! 6.50000000000000E-01
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
|B49
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|A50 "Kerosene (gal)
!"Kerosene (gal)
|B50  1.35
! 1.35000000000000E+00
\FB N D ZZZ.999
|C50  139000
! 1.39000000000000E+05
\FB N D ZZZ,ZZZ,ZZZ
|D50  60
! 6.00000000000000E+01
|E50  100000/((D50/100)*C50)
! 1.19904076738609E+00
\FB N D ZZ.99999
|F50  B50*E50
! 1.61870503597122E+00
\FB N D ZZZZ.99
! Restoring marker to original position
|F1
! End of DECalc Dump file

    Does anyone know how insurance companies react to a new woodstove
    installation?  I'm going to install a new woodstove and chiminey
    pipe (all to code).  Now I'm wondering if my insurance company will
    use it as an excuse to raise my rates.  If I don't tell the insurance
    company, but I do get the permit signed off, will there be trouble
    in the event of a fire.  
    
    (Something tells me your answers will be yes.)

>        (Something tells me your answers will be yes.)

    Sorry, I don't think so.  Your rates shouldn't go up.  
    So I think the question about whether you should tell your
    insurance company is irrelevant.  You should tell them.  They
    want to know so that they can make sure you have the permit.  
    (If that makes sense).
    

    Better to tell them and maybe have a rate change (which I don't
    think will happen) than to not tell them, have a fire and have them
    not pay for the damage.

    I'v owned houses with FHW and FHA.  I would much rather have FHW.
    
    It's more even heat, particularly if you have a lot of radiator
    area.  I use baseboard in my house.  It's great.  The temprature
    extremes also seem to be much less with the FHW system.  when the
    thermostat shuts off, there is still some warmth in the radiators.
    
    But I think the big advantage, is that the radiant heat comes from
    the permimeter of the house, which gives a very warm feeling, with
    no drafts or cold walls.
    
    			regards,
    				steve cloutier
    

now, if you want to add a/c.....
its certainly cheaper if you have FHA, but if you can afford it - my 
experience is that an attic-based a/c system is much more efficient 
and comfortable - so FHW may be the way to go

if you're <building>, and its at all a high-end house, i would put in
the ducts anyway- it shouldn't cost much now, and the next owner may 
want (or pay more for) the hooks for the a/c

    Can someone explain what is meant by the efficiency rating on furnaces,
    specifically gas, FHA?  For instance, my present furnace, which needs
    to be replaced, is somewhere around 60% efficient.  If I replace
    it with a unit that is 98% efficient does that mean that I will
    get 38% more usable heat generated from the same quantity of gas
    burned?  If so it seems like the higher price for the high efficiency
    units is well worth it.
    
    Thanks,
    
    George

    The air is preheated by a heat exchanger from the flue gas and the
    pilot flame is now replaced with electronic [pizzo-electric spark]
    ignition.
    
    Intresting aside, the furnace flue can now be pvc plastic because
    you can put your hand on it.
    
    /cal

There are some newer brands of furnaces (gas) that are 80+ efficient and
are about 3'x2' in size.  The vent is PVC so a chimney isn't needed.  They
are $Expensive$ though.  "This Old house" (ugh) mentioned them in two of
last seasons projects.

    re: .0
    
    Do not expect 98% efficiency.  I think 85% is about the best you
    can hope for.
    
    Elaine

    
    	What is a common price for a furnace servicing? I would think
    	that servicing would include:
    
    			* cleaning flue pipe and firebox
    
    			* checking ignition
    
    			* checking fuel/air mixture
    		
    			* setting barometric damper
    
    	I am assuming that the service person is independent of the
    	company providing fuel service. Any recommendations for service
    	personnel for Frederick FHA burners in the greater Worcester
    	area would also be appreciated.
    
    /Kevin

    I got hit for about $45 for my annual checkup plus minor tuneups
    last fall.  (I have FHW by oil.)  This was done by the fuel oil
    supplier.  This seemed a little high, but I guess it costs $35 to
    get them to your house before they do anything.
                             
    Stan

    $40-$50 is about right for most Oil suppliers that I am familiar
    with.  This is a small price to pay considering that an emergency
    call in the winter can run up to $24/Hr.  The price usually covers
    a yearly cleaning as well as any labor associated with any other
    calls you make.  They should replace the nozzle every year ($2.50
    - $4.00 each depending upon size) as well as the oil filter.
    
    Dan

    My oil dealer does it for $35.00, plus parts.  I don't know what
    an independent service person might charge, probably more because
    he's not getting the profit from selling the oil.
    He also offers a package deal of a yearly cleaning plus 24-hour 
    emergency service for something like $65, but I get the $35 
    cleaning and take my chances on needing emergency service.
    
    This is with Carlisle Fuel Co. in Boylston, Mass.

How about GAS FHA style furnaces?  Are the price estimates the same ?

					J

The big operator (and a class act) in Worcester is Alan Corp - 853 
2900.

For gas FHA - i don't believe any 'regular' service is necessary - 
these are very simple systems - and my advice would be "If it ain't 
broke, don't fix it".

    
    	The reason that I was interested in a tune up and a cleaning
    	is that I am installing a wood stove in the same flue, and
    	when I took off the flue pipe for the furnace to inspect it
    	there was alot of buildup and soot in the pipe. I would suspect
    	that this indicates something less than complete combustion
    	and that a cleaning and a tune up is in order. Better safe than
    	sorry.
    
    /Kevin

    I too was interested in getting my gas FHA furnace tuned up for
    the winter.  When I moved into my house in the early spring, the
    furnace was noted to be not burning efficiently, besides being
    covered with dirt and dust from years of neglect.  Who do you call
    for this type of service, the gas company?  A private contractor?
    Has anyone in the Littleton (MA) area had any luck with the latter?
    
    Jim

BTW, I'm pretty sure it's illegal according to any codes to install a 
woodstove and a gas or oil furnace on the same flue.

Paul

    Try		K W Stidsen Heating Co.
    		226 Sunderland Rd
    		Worcester, MA
    
    		799-7493
    
    
    It's a father and son business.  They installed a new heat exchanger
    for me this summer.  After talking to him, he struck me as a very
    knowledgeable and honest guy.  He VERY helpful to me in my particular
    situation.
    
   Phil

    
    	re .8  I've checked with local codes here in MA and there is
    	NO problem installing a wood burning stove using the same flue
    	as an existing oil burner. The only requirement in Bolton is
    	that the stove be flued lower than the oil fired unit. Check
    	the stoves notes file on KRYSTL:: for more info on this topic.
    
    /Kevin

    For a FHW by oil listen to .2.
    It ran up until the end of the last season...so it will run now.
    Simply change the nozzle on the burner and the in line oil filter.

       As far as the boilers concern, pop the top off and vacumn what you
    can see. What am I takin' about???? > READ your data sheets that
    come with your system (for you who can find it).
    Still sound shakey???? Then hire the serviceman to perform the
    procedures as you watch. Then you'll feel comfortable doing it next
    year. And according to two independant oil servicemen I've spoke
    to: Once the air band and the other air adjustment (can't think
    of the name) is set on the burner...according to the CO2 & damper
    control readings, they're fixed. No need to set them again unless
    your experiencing some type of problems.

    /MArk

RE: .10

	Weird, but when the Worcester Fire department inspected the
wood furnace and fire detectors in our house, they said it is a state
law requiring a separate chimney/flue for a wood stove....

					Confused'

    If you are thinking of installing a wood stove and an oil or gas
    burning device (furnace, hot water heater, etc.) in the same flue,
    please DON'T.  If ever the furnace, or etc. comes on when the wood
    stove is burning and it doesn't ignite, the gas or oil fumes will 
    enter the chimney and the resulting explosion will reduce your house 
    to matchsticks and foul several acres of beautiful local real estate.
    
    Keep America Beautiful!
    Stan

    
    RE .-1   I believe that one of the key reasons not to use a common
    	chimneyis that if you experience a chinmey fire (God forbid)
    	the non-airtight furnace will provide a oxygen source that
    	you may not be able to block by shutting down your stove.
    	I agree with a previous noter about it being illegal in MA.
    
    	Regards
    

    re: .4, .7
    
    I just had my gas FHA inspected and cleaned.  I called the gas company
    (in Nashua) and they came out and did it.  Unfortunately, as a result
    of the inspection I'm now waiting for the delivery of my new furnace.
    :-(

Re .0
> I would think that servicing would include cleaning flue pipe and firebox

I'm not sure what else a tune-up would include, but my flue pipe was cleaned
only when we complained about a fume-y smell in the cellar ... and we've had
tune-ups done yearly.  You may just have to ask for it specifically.

    I have an Oil FHW furnace. I use Coan out of Natick. When I signed
    up with them, I took a 3 year contract which cost $ 128. It included
    yearly tune-up, parts, insurance on the oil tank (if the tank should 
    develop a leak, they will repair or replace), and any emergency
    call.
    
    This year they replaced the firebox and flue-pipes.
    
    I believe that I am ahead of the game.
    
    The only drawback is that I am locked into buying their oil, which
    usually runs about .03 higher than other dealers.
    
    Ken

    re. a few
    I have had a wood stove (Ashley C60) hooked into my common flue
    for over 10 years. It was inspected and OK'd by our local fire
    chief (Westfield, Ma.) Copy sent to my insurance co. too!.
    I keep the flue clean and inspect it regulary. We have had no problems
    at all.
    A set of brushes cost only $29, cheeper than a sweep, and I know
    it's clean.
    
    Jim                                                 

>    The only drawback is that I am locked into buying their oil, which
>    usually runs about .03 higher than other dealers.
    
Let's see, if you burn 1,000 gallons a year for three years, that's 
3� x 3,000 gal = 9,000� = $90.  I think you're still ahead of the 
game.
					>>>==>PStJTT

    
    I just totaled up my fuel usage for all the time I've lived in my
    house. Before I installed the System 2000, average yearly fuel use
    was 1600 gallons. Ugh! Since the System 2000 was installed, fuel
    usage averages 675 gallons a year - and we are warmer. My case 
    might be extreme - that is, even replacing my boiler  with a 
    traditional boiler would probably be an improvement. But nevertheless
    I'm a big System 2000 fan. The installation cost was about 3300.
    So the payback period (dependent on fluctuating oil prices, of course)
    will probably be between two and three years. 
    
    I think this heating system is fabuluous. Anyone interested in info
    about, please feel free to call me.  

    Thanks for this helpful discussion.  And, I seem to agree with those
    who like FHW.  BUT:
    
    Let me put my question more directly....
    The house I am interested in has FHA being installed.  (The house
    is still sticks, but it has been "plumbed" for FHA.)
      
    	- Is that enough of a reason NOT to buy a house?  
    	- I am somewhat allergic to dust.  Will it be so dusty that I 
          ought to not buy it?   
    	- Is there a way to make it less dusty (i.e. humidification)?
   
    Roger 
    (NOTE ALSO WRITTEN TO REAL ESTATE NOTES FILE)
    

    Re: .12
    Whether it's reason enough not to buy the house is entirely your
    own judgement.  I don't think it would bother me that much, if
    I otherwise liked the house and its location.  (Location is really
    the big one; you can always change the heating system; you can
    even tear the house down and rebuild it, or remodel it so much you'd
    never recognize it, but you can't change where it is.)  Some people
    really like hot air heat, and it does have some advantages.  For
    one thing, there are no pipes to freeze up if you go away in the
    winter and the power happens to go off.
    I doubt that dust will be any more of a problem with hot air than
    with any other kind of heat.  It may blow dust around, if there
    is any, but it doesn't create dust on its own.  You can also get
    electrostatic filters for a hot air system that supposedly do an
    excellent job of trapping just about everything, so you might even
    be better off with hot air heat on that score.  You can also put
    a whole-house humidifier on a hot air system to offset the drying
    effect.
    In summary, hot air isn't all that bad.  The main thing, I think,
    is the design of the particular system.  My parents have steam,
    I've got hot water, and my wife's parents have hot air.  They all
    work just fine.  There are pros and cons for any system, it all
    depends on what you want trade off, and you might prefer one over
    another, but in the final analysis I expect most people could live
    with any type of heating system if it's properly designed and installed.

The house we are currently trying to sell is vacant (If you are looking for
a nice house in So. NH, see 19.777 in TALLIS::REAL_ESTATE).  It's heated
by FHW, so we have left the oil burner turned on so as to keep the pipes 
from freezing. The problem is this:  The lowest the thermostats (4 zones;
Honeywell thermostats installed when the house was build; 20 yrs ago)
can be set to is 60 degrees. So, each time I go over to check the house (about
2wice a week), the boiler is running, and the house is (too) warm.
We are using more oil this winter by not being there then last winter
when we were there and used the woodstove constantly.  I can't simply
turn off the oil burner, so what would be the best way to cut down the 
temperature/oil consumption.  Should I:

	* Install new thermostats that can be adjusted to say 35-40 degrees?
	  How much would these cost?  Are they fairly easy to install?

	* Drain the system so that we can shut the boiler off completely?
	  Is this a hassle?  Something I can do myself?  If not, how much $
	  will it cost?

	* Hang in there for a couple more months at which time warmer weather
	  will be just around the corner?

	* Any other suggestions?

Thanx for any advice,
-Jim

Here's an idea. 

While at K-mart looking for a new ice scraper to replace the one I 
broke Saturday I noticed these plug-in electrical sockets that are only 
energized at or below a set temperature (the one I saw was for 35F). 
They look kind of like a plug adapter or extender. It plugs into a 
115V outlet and the device you want to come on above the set temp. is 
plugged into it.

I believe they are primarily intended for barns, water trough heaters 
etc... but might be just what you're looking for.

Perhaps you could rig the thermostat transformer to be powered from the 
load side of one of these.

It's a lot cheaper than buying a new thermostat anyway - these were 
only a couple of bucks.

Chuck

    How about finding a short-term tenant? Chances are, if you *do*
    find a buyer, that person will be in the same boat ("well I can't
    buy it until I sell..."), so you may wind up having an empty
    house for a while.
    With a tenant, at least you can heat your house and have somebody
    *pay* you for it!
    Talk to some r/e agents, there are a lot of folks in need of short
    term housing while thier house in being built, etc, etc.
    
    John
    

>    	* Hang in there for a couple more months at which time warmer weather
>	  will be just around the corner?

    You don't want to turn the heat down so low that your water lines
    and drains will freeze.  I've only seen thermostats go down to 50
    degrees.
    
    You could "winterize" the house.  Drain all the water lines, heating
    lines and put antifreeze in the toilet and drain traps.  This might
    be impossible to do if you're in the process of selling though.
    
    Phil

    You might try "faking out" the existing thermostats by placing a
    source of warmth (a light bulb turned on by a timer) near each
    thermostat.
    
    You've probably got some lights on timers there anyhow, so use the
    lights to make the thermostats think the house is warmer than it
    really is.
    
    BC
    

    	There is a reason why most thermostats don't go below 50. The
    inside of the house may be 50 but the space between the inside and
    outside wall where the pipes are may be 20 or lower. I've seen the
    result of people turning there temp down to low in poorly insulated
    houses. It's not a pretty sight. 
    	
    	If you want to get down to 50 with your 60 degree thermostats
    try this:  Depending on the type of thermostats.
    	Most are mercury swithes on a peace of bi-metalic coil. remove
    the cover and observe the switch operation to find out which way
    the mercury tilts in the off position. Now find the 2 mounting screws
    which hold the thermostate unit to the mounting bracket on the wall.
    The unit is made so there will be some adjustment possible tilting
    clockwise or counter-clockwise for calibration purposees. Just loosen
    the adjustment screws and tilt the unit so as to force the unit
    MORE off so as to have to turn the temp up higher to get it to come
    on. Now all the settings will be off on the dial so push the thermostat
    up until the heat just comes on say at 60 (real temp) and see how
    this corilates to the setting on the thermostat it should be something
    like 70 so now you can turn setting to 60 and get a real temp of
    50. 
    	This is a neat trick for those of you landlords, the tenant
    thiks they set the temp at 80 to waste your heat but they only get
    70.
    
    					...Dave
    

    	I would not suggest winterizing the home dramatically.  Given
    the slow housing market, you want to give a prospect the "warm and
    fuzzies" that you r home is a very comfortable, liveable place.
     Being cold with antifreeeze in the toilets will probably not do
    this.  Sure, you could save some heating money, but if your sale
    is delayed by even two weeks, how much will you lose in mortgage,
    property tax, insurance, tieing up your equity, etc?
    
    						-craig

>    	I would not suggest winterizing the home dramatically.  Given
>    the slow housing market, you want to give a prospect the "warm and
>    fuzzies" that you r home is a very comfortable, liveable place.
>     Being cold with antifreeeze in the toilets will probably not do
>    this.  Sure, you could save some heating money, but if your sale
>    is delayed by even two weeks, how much will you lose in mortgage,
>    property tax, insurance, tieing up your equity, etc?
>    
   Disagree, a vacant clean house isn't any less attractive than new 
construction, and might look better than something that looks 
'well-lived in'.  When we were househunting a year ago, there were 
indeed a few houses we looked at that required coats inside.  I really 
didn't consider this a minus, but spent more time looking as I didn't 
feel I was 'imposing' on anyone.  I vote for turning off the water,
opening some faucets, but let the realtor run the heat on weekends if 
she expects heavy traffic.

    The house I bought in N.H. was vacant and winterize. The house was
    total electric so is wasn't toooo much trouble to winterize.  The
    only complaint I have is when the owner had the house recharged
    all the toilets were stained from the antifreeze they poured in
    and one of the universal shower controls was put on backwards so
    to get hot water you turned the control to cold etc. I agree with
    .7  I spent more time in the house looking around because I didn't
    feel like I was disturbing the owners.  It also gave us more time
    to come back with the realator to measure for drapes, carpets, and
    to set up my workshop in the basement. 
    
    
    Just another opinion.
    
    Don
    

    I think you're crazy to spend more money to on a house that is
    costing you money every day for being empty! Gets some tenants
    in there - that house may be empty longer than you care to think
    about!
    Another thing, you're less like to accept a lower price with some
    income coming in. A few more months with an empty house will
    probably be enough to take a price you may not have accepted one
    after one week on the market.
    My sister is having a house built. They sold their condo, but the
    house won't be ready till March. Another condo in their area hasn't
    sold in months. They are renting that in the meantime. All parties
    benefit.

    RE: renters
    
    How many renters do really think are going to want to move into
    a house that they know is going to be sold soon??  Only somebody
    that loves to move!  Anybody know somebody like this?  I certainly
    don't.
    
    RE: antifreeze stains
    
    Maybe they used car anti-freeze.  There is another kind which is
    non-toxic that is around $3 a gallon.  Never used it myself, but
    can't imagine it would stain fixtures.  Anybody know differently?
    
    Phil

    RE: Antifreeze
    
    	They used a special kind of antifreeze because they left a jug
    of it behind.  The stains after 2 1/2 years are still visible. 
    One of these days I'll get around to replacing the toilets.
    
    Don
    
    P.S. If anybody has any ideas to get the stains out ( I have a septic
    system) I sure would welcome any comments.
    
    Don
    

    re .10
    No one *likes* to move more than the have to. The fact is, sometimes
    you *have* to. Like I said im my note - My sister sold her condo,
    but the new house will not be ready. The P+S had a rental agreement
    in it, but this builder is way late. They are forced to find temporary
    housing until the house is ready. It is not that uncommon. By making
    the house in question available to this type of situation, you're
    not only solving the heat problem - YOU'RE GETTING INCOME FROM IT!!
    
    John

    Don't mess with the heat........... If anything get some thermostats
    that go to 55F, don't go below 55F, with FHW. Here's what happens.
    
    The heated water won't circulate enough, and on these cold nights
    it will freeze, not the entire system, but one of the lines,
    the furnace can't tell the difference and will try to pump
    the water thru. WE KNOW THE FURNACE IS CONNECTED TO THE MAIN
    WATER SUPPLY. And we also know that once we have an "open"
    in one of the heating lines, WE know we're gonna have a
    big mess.    New thermostats are cheap compared to this,
    not to mention the fact your house won't be in show condition
    until you clean it up and make the repairs. You must have known
    this would be an additional expense, before you moved.
                                                  
    
    If you decide to winterize, the non toxic antifreeze your
    looking for is sod under the product name "Winter-Pruf"
    its good for -60F. It does not have to be mixed with water,
    and it does not stain the fixtures. Its used on boats and
    rv's. I've been using it for years. Winterizing your house
    would cost about $250. a friend of mine has a house on
    Cape Cod and has this done every year. 
    
    My strong recomendation is to do one of the other, but nothing
    in between.
    
    Jim.

    re: .11
    
      I have one possible solution to getting the stains out: GEL GLOSS.
    It's been mentioned a few times elsewhere in this file and as far
    as I'm concerned, it is a miracle cleaner.  It is the only thing
    I found that could clean my bathtub.  The bathtub had many dark
    stains from hard water and who knows how many years of neglect.
    I tried so many cleaners including abrasive cleaners like AJAX that 
    I thought my only option left was to have it resurfaced. GEL GLOSS
    worked like a champ. It is one of very few products I have found that 
    work as claimed. The surface does need to be dry as the instructions
    indicate! You then pretty much use it as any other cleaner however
    with a little bit more rubbing if the stains are very bad.  For
    $2.19 at Spags, it's certainly worth a try.  I haven't been able
    to remove the copper stains in the tub with it but then again I
    haven't really tried.  I'm just pleased to have a white tub look
    reasonably white again.

    -Jim

To get blue copper stains out of the tub:  Scrub-Free (use in ventilated area)
To get brown mineral stains out of the dishwasher:  Tang

    
    		I have to make a decision on a new heating system.
    	Could some of you please list some pro and cons of oil
    	forced hot air systems vs. oil fired hot water systems.
    
    				Thank You,	Peter
    

If you look in the directory, note 1111, you'll find separate directories 
devoted to Forced Hot Air and to Forced Hot Water.  1111.31 lists about 25 
notes on Air, and 1111.32 lists over 30 on Water.  In a quick look I noticed at 
least a couple that were comparisons.

Paul

    I have forced hot air...very dry (you need a built-in humidifier)
    and unevenly distributed heat.

    
    reply to 1909.1
    
    			Thank You, I found everything I wanted to know.
    
    						Peter
    

    Having had both types, I can list a few comparisons.
    
    Both are dry, but hot air allows you to put in a central humidifier
    or air conditioning.  Hot water doesn't.
    
    Hot water provides smoother, cleaner and quieter heat.  Hot air
    tends to be dusty and have higher temperature swings.
    
    Creating zones is easy in hot water, but hard with hot air.  For
    hot water, it takes a few valves and maybe separate circulators.
    For hot air, there is no easy way in an oil fired set up.  For gas
    hot air, separate but smaller systems are usually used.  I have
    three furnaces!  In my case, hot air allowed me to cut in a forced
    hot air wood furnace quite easily.
    

    With FHA you can have separate zones, but you must plan for them
    when the system is initially installed. Separate supply lines are
    run with motorized dampers between these lines and a single furnace.
    A simple control box takes inputs from the different thermostats,
    opens the correct dampers and turns on the furnace.
    
    Nick

    As mentioned, FHA lets you avoid winter dryness through the use
    of a central humidifier. Electrostatic air cleaners give you a clean,
    relatively dustfree house.
    
    FHA also avoids the temperature stratification that FHW yields (cold
    floors, increasing temp the higher you go). You either live with
    it or buy ceiling fans if you have FHW.
    
    Temperature swings can be avoided by properly sizing the furnace.
    Too large a furnace yields large temperature swings.
    
    In a few years, air conditioning will be standard in new houses.
    If you ever have to sell, FHA permits you (or the new owner) to
    easily air condition the house. You just can't do it properly if
    you don't have FHA.

                                            
    I have lived in 3 or 4 houses with FHA heat (without the
    humidification), and I *hated* it.  I got Strep Throat frequently, as
    well as many colds/sore throats.  I was determined not to buy a house
    that had FHA.  I have a steam system right now (which has had a
    few problems, but not because it's steam), and I have not had 1
    cold this winter!  And that's pretty amazing for me.
    
    About the Humidified FHA:
    
    I used to think it was a good idea, but lately I have been hearing
    a lot of bad news about humidifiers.  Apparently, bacteria and mold
    can develop in humidifiers, and can cause some serious illnesses
    when the moisture (and bacteria) is distributed.  Legionella (remember
    Legionaire's Disease?) is one of the bacteria that can be spread
    this way.  I heard a doctor recommend that humidifiers should be
    cleaned out with bleach, EACH time you use them, to kill any bacteria.
    Also, she recommended for those people buying a humidifier to buy
    the kind that BOILS the water (to kill the germs).  Apparently,
    their is still some debate as to whether or not the ionizing vaporizors
    are good or not.
    
    If it were me I would go with hot water.
    

      I have FHA and like it but the built in humidifier is not all
    that it's cracked up to be.  I have mine set to 100% which only
    means that it will go on every time the furnace blower is on but
    this still is not adequate.  On very dry days, I use a vaporizer 
    in addition to this.  
    
    -Jim
    

    I agree that the built in humidifier is not all its cracked up to
    be, but I did make an improvement.  Having a three speed blower
    on my FHA system, I added the ability to humidify when the furnace
    is not on.  This was especially important in my case, because I
    heat mostly with wood, not the furnace.
    
    When the humidifier senses low humidity, the blower comes on at
    the lowest speed.  When the furnace is on, the flower increases
    its speed to the max.  This took only a relay to do and appears
    to help. 
    
    I also run a standard room humidifier in the basement where the
    furnaces (3), including the wood fired FHA unit, are.  Because the
    wood furnace makes the basement very warm, I opened up the cold
    air return, cut an inch or two off the cellar door and let it circulate
    air through the cellar.  The room humidifier works the best in this
    situation.  Best of all, I can fill it with a hose, which I couldn't
    do if it were in the living room.
    

>    In a few years, air conditioning will be standard in new houses.

Hey! I remember that prediction from the 1950's!  All houses will be 
air-conditioned; they will use efficient radiant electric heat -- no 
cost because each house will have its own small nuclear pile in the 
basement -- we'll have cars that fly; space liners to the moon colony; 
there will be a single large computer that controls everything 
world-wide; telephones will all have video screen/camera combinations so 
we can see who we're talking to...

>telephones will all have video screen/camera combinations so 
>we can see who we're talking to...

	Which it, I saw one of these babies in Lechmere while Christmas
    shopping!  But for over $1000, they may still be a "future" purchase.
    
    Phil

>    Because the wood furnace makes the basement very warm, I opened up the
>    cold air return, cut an inch or two off the cellar door and let it
>    circulate air through the cellar.  
    
    You may have the potential for a serious problem. If you 'opened
    up the cold air return' in the same room as the furnace, the fan
    can pull combustion gases (that should float up the chimney) into
    your cold air return and thus into your house!
    

    	The "dryness" of a house has nothing to do with whether you 
have FHA or FHW. Neither one adds water to or subtracts water from the
air.     The moisture level in the air is a function of (1) the amount
of dry     outside air which infiltrates into the house displacing
moist inside     air and (2) the efficiency of the vapor barriers in
the walls of the     house. Both systems consume some air in the
combustion process and this     has to be replenished with outside
air. They both are therefore     slightly "dryer" than electric heat,
everything else being equal. The     reason that FHA has a reputation
for being dry is that many     old houses used gravity hot air
systems. These old houses had no vapor     barriers in the walls and
allowed a lot of air infiltration around the     doors and windows.
Modern systems are actually forced warm air (FWA)     and if properly
installed provide excellent heat as do properly designed FHW systems. 

Re: .13

>>    	The "dryness" of a house has nothing to do with whether you 
>>have FHA or FHW.

  I disagree.

>>Neither one adds water to or subtracts water from the air.

  I agree. 
    
  
 I disagree with the first not because of the design of either system but 
because of function.  FHA, at least in my case, draws air from the basement (or 
adds it to its circulation loop) as well.  That air in turn has to be replaced 
with air from the house.  I believe that the moisture from this air is 
condensing in the basement which is much cooler.  I also believe that if I 
heated the basement, I could get some (or a lot) of this moisture back into 
the loop.  

-Jim

re .7:

	   I heard a doctor recommend that humidifiers should be
    cleaned out with bleach, EACH time you use them, to kill any bacteria.
    Also, she recommended for those people buying a humidifier to buy
    the kind that BOILS the water (to kill the germs).  Apparently,
    their is still some debate as to whether or not the ionizing vaporizors
    are good or not.
    
I heard this reported on the radio, but our own pediatrician insists
that cool mist vaporizers are less dangerous than electrolytic ones.
I didn't ask her why, but perhaps it is because bacteria grows better
in the warm (not boiling) water that is always present in an electrolytic
vaporizer.  A vaporizer that boils all of its water has another problem - 
fire hazard if it becomes empty.  Anyway, if the doctors disagree, what 
are we poor mortals to think?  

I'll add one more random bit to the dialog and mention sick buildings -
buildings with high rates of illness, not due to any chemical contaminant,
but due to molds in the forced air heating system.  There's a vetinary
college in (I think) Florida that has had to nearly abandon a new building
because of this - the repair will cost millions.

	Larry

    If I may quibble a bit with Larry, in .15:
    
    I'm not certain that ALL electrolytic vaporizers are fire hazards
    when empty.  The one I grew up with had a design consisting of a
    bakelite (or some such) cylinder with a water inlet at the bottom,
    enclosing two metal electrodes which appear to be hooked each to
    one side of 120VAC.  After so many years of service (in salted water,
    yum!), the electrodes are showing some signs of wear;  and I don't
    know if this design is still used.  But if it runs out of water,
    it stops consuming power completely.
    
    Dick
    

    Our son's pediatrition recommended the cool mist humidifiers for
    two reasons:
    
    	1 - saftey, no boiling water to scald in case of accident.
    
    	2 - claimed that the cool vapor works faster than the steam.
    
    Another 2 cents worth .......
    
    Kathy

Obviously, FHA vs FHW is a religious issue.  However, I believe there 
are some facts that can't/shouldn't be ignored:

1. As in the Florida case (or the hotel in PA), is is a known fact that 
bacteria and molds can grow in ductwork and be a source of problem 
especially to allergic individuals.  

2. You can put an electrostatic air cleaner in a FHA system that helps
with dust and smoke, but (unless there is one is at each and every outlet
grill) it will not positively control bacteria and molds downstream from
the cleaner. 

3. Any humidifier you put in a FHA system (that I am aware of) is a 
cool-water type; hence, the problems are similar to other kids of 
humidifiers.   Note that for many people, the need for a humidifier is 
increased with FHA as compared to FHW.

4. CU and others have indicated that a properly cleaned ultrasonic 
humidifier does have less bacteria than a standard cool-mist variety 
but that the steam variety is, of course, the least contaminated (and 
dangerous due to scalding not due to problems when the water runs out).

Opinion:  having lived with a new, high-quality version of both, I 
believe that FHW with ultrasonic humidifiers cleaned regularly is a 
more satisfying solution than FHW with humidifier and electrostatic air 
filter.  (My wife has bad allergies and found that even with the air 
cleaner, the FHA system was irritating.)

Alex

>2. You can put an electrostatic air cleaner in a FHA system that helps
>with dust and smoke, but (unless there is one is at each and every outlet
>grill) it will not positively control bacteria and molds downstream from
>the cleaner. 
>

Well, my humidifier is in the return, BEFORE the fine-grain air 
filter.  Thus, the molds have to pass through the air filter, and 
withstand the 200 degF heat at the furnace, to make it into the 
airflow of the house.

re .16:

Sorry, I didn't mean that an electrolysis humidifier is a fire hazard -
as you say, when they run out of water they turn off.  "When I was young"
steam humidifiers boiled the water with a heating element - that's a
fire hazard when empty.  On the other hand, with all of the water at
212 degrees F, it's probably the cleanest. 

    Most humidifiers installed in FHA systems do not work on the same
    principle as cool mist or ultrasonic humidifiers. They work on
    evaporation by passing hot dry air over plates, screens or some
    other membrane that has been saturated with water.
    
    If you are concerned about growth in FHA ducts then by all means
    stay away from the fiberglass duct board that has become popular. This
    Old House was boasting about it on one show but they neglected to
    warn you that it will not only spread fiberglass dust but will collect
    dirt and odors over time. I would imagine that this would be haven
    for mold to grow in.
    
    Now don't get me wrong, I like FHA, but my bias is mostly due to
    the fact that my father has been doing sheet metal work for 40+
    years and he taught me the trade when I was working my way through
    college. I've lived with steam, FHW and FHA, they all seem to get
    the house warm. 

    Nick

re: .19, .21

I was not just speaking about the effect of humidifiers.  Yes, the two 
kinds of humidifiers I saw for FHA had either a spray or some kind of 
plate/surface from which water evaporated.  At the time, I was told not 
to put the humidifier before the furnace (in the return) because of the 
chance of rotting out the heat exchanger.  But putting the humidifier 
before the electronic air cleaner would seem to remove the possibility 
contamination from the humidifier.  

However, humidifiers aside, you can still have mold growth in ducts 
(especially perhaps fiberglass).  Since the electronic air cleaners are 
traditionally placed near the furnace, there is a lot of ductwork 
*after* the air has been cleaned where molds can be picked up.  And 
nobody proposes putting an electronic air cleaner at each outlet vent!

I grew up with FHA and hated the feeling of cold as soon as the fan
turned off (on those sub-zero Chicago days).  We used to have steam in
our current house. Steam had the advantage of adding back some of the
humidity automatically. But it was an inefficient, old system and it
took ages to get anything hot, and was hard to balance, especially since
we wanted to keep the house cooler to save on heating bills. Our 
current FHW system seems to be the most satisfying.  It can get the 
chill off in seconds and the heat seems to persist after the 
circulators have turned off. Of course, we don't have/need central air 
conditioning, so we don't need the ductwork.

Alex

    the FHA system in my house (built in the 50's but heating/ac system
    updated ???? by previous owner) has the electronic air filter installed
    in the return plenum and the humidifier after the furnace - with
    the humidistat in the return side.
    
    as long as we are on the subject-
    
    any ideas how to clean the ducting (rectangular sheet metal)?  we
    just moved in 6 months ago and my step-son has allergies and the
    dust builds up in the house within 3 days of cleaning the house.
    
    have washed the electronic filters monthly and am now using a standard
    filter (with electronic system turned off) for a while to try to
    trap as much as possible.
    
    	-Barry-
    

    RE: .23
    
    Short of taking it down and cleaning each piece by hand?  I can't
    think of any.  Something like a chimney sweep set-up might work
    but I've never heard of it being done.
    
    Let us know what you find.
    
    Phil

    My wife and I will be moving from our appartment, were we paid no
    utilities, to our first home. It's a duplex townhouse (condex).
    It's heated by gas, has an electric range/oven, and a hookup for
    an electric dryer. My question is, would it be to our advantage
    to switch to "all gas"?  Since we must by a dryer, should we go
    with gas.  My thought was to have a hookup for a gas stove installed
    at the same time as the dryer and then sell the electric stove.
           (I do prefer gas for cooking, but would this be a savings
                for us in the long run?)
    
                                      Jim.
    

Since you already have gas in the house, it could be an economic advantage,
as well as being what you want to do anyway.  I can't provide specifics
for your situation, but I do know this: burning gas or oil to make
electricity, which you then use to make heat, has a built-in 33%
efficiency loss over buring the gas or oil to directly make the heat you need.
That's why electric heating is so expensive - it is inherently wasteful.
Only by finding a cheaper fuel to burn to make electricity (or an
alternative that doesn't burn something), or by artificially raising
the cost of gas & oil, can electric heating come close to the cost of
heating by burining gas or oil.  This applies to heating food and clothing
as well as heating your house.  

Of course, the fixed cost of converting to gas may be too high to get
a reasonable payback time.  But gas heat is fundamentally cheaper than
electric heat.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

	Boy .... I'll tell ya I am SICK & TIRED about everyone knocking 
	the hell outta Electric heat !  I have Electric heat and love it !
	If you have a well insullated house the difference between heating
	with oil/gas is minimal (perhaps $30 a month in the winter).  
	Figure the cost of a chimney & pipes & boiler into your cost and
	Electric heat is a bargain !  You'll have to go quite a few years
	before you'll make up the intitial investment of 6-8 K for the 
	essentials in a gas/oil system for your home.


	Lay off Electric Heat will ya !


	Chuck

    .10:
    
    After having used gas stoves, and those electric tools of the devil,
    I'd suggest that you should check the costs of bringing in a gas
    stove.  Given that you already have a gas line in your house, it
    seems very likely to me that you'll find the cost of converting
    well worth the improvement (in your cooking, or your temper, or
    both).
    
    Dick
    

re .12:

If you'll reread the initial request, you'll see that this person 
already has gas heat for his house; he is wondering about using
gas to heat his clothing and food.  So he already has a chimney and 
(almost) everything else he needs.  Retrofitting an all-electric house 
to use gas or oil is certainly a major cost and probably not worth it.

But that doesn't change my point that the laws of physics dictate
a major efficiency loss when you use heat to make electricity which
you then use to make heat.  That's just the way it is - not intended
as an insult to your all-electric house, nor as a suggestion that
you ought to be unhappy about your electric heat.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    I did just what you describe about a year and a half ago.  I replace
    the electric stove and dryer with gas.  Now, I had to run the gas
    lines in from the edge of the house and have the meter installed,
    but to me it was worth it since I knew I would have to replace my
    furnace (oil-fired) soon and wanted gas for that and the water heater.
    
    Anyway, what I saw with just the stove and dryer was that my electric
    bill went down about $25 a month and my gas bill ran about $6 to
    $8 a month.  Now that is a savings.  The installation depends on
    the number of feet of pipe they have to run plus a standard hourly
    charge.  Mine was not cheap, but paid off this winter when the furnace
    went and I did that conversion.
    
    For the record, I have 3 kids plus I do laundry for a friend.  I
    bake weekly but don't cook supper in the oven too often - usually
    use the stove top for that if it makes a difference.
    
    Ellen

    (Couldn't find a keyword for GAS or NATURAL GAS)
    
    We recently received a flyer from COMGas pitching gas heating against
    oil.  One of the statements on the flyer said that in most cases,
    if a house needed to be attached to the street gas main (i.e. no
    gas presently piped into the house) they would take care of it for
    free.
    
    Can this be true?  Anyone have any experience with this?  It seems
    to me that digging a trench below the frost line from a foundation
    wall, possibly through a lawn and sidewalk, and into the street
    would be a fairly expensive proposition...
    

    I ould suspect that they mean at the street and up to the property
    line, not all the way to the house, but only a phone call to them
    would get a definite answer.
    
    Eric
    

>    (Couldn't find a keyword for GAS or NATURAL GAS)

Where did you look?  By either doing a SHO KEY or (preferably) by looking at 
1111.1, a quick look would turn up HEATING_GAS.  The directory for this keyword 
is at note 1111.37

Paul

    Woops!  Sorry about that. Didn't see HEATING_GAS.
    

>>    We recently received a flyer from COMGas pitching gas heating against
>>    oil.  
    
      Only one?  Did you only recently move there?  :^)  I seem to get
    those about every other month.  I personally have no desire to convert
    from oil to gas for heat.  If you don't act now, I'm sure the
    opportunity will knock again (and again). I don't think they will do 
    it for free unless several people in your neighborhood want to convert
    also, unless of course, gas is that expensive. 
 

    -Jim

    
    Re: .0
    
    	Are you sure that the gas line has to be below frost level?
    If it isn't, what freezes -- the gas?  It might get a little cold,
    but I doubt it would get cold enough to liquify and then freeze
    the natural gas!  (Well, at least I hope not.  But 'ya never know in
    New Hampshire, right? ;-)
    
    							-c

    If it's not below the frost line, the heaving of the ground from
    freezing and thawing cycles could put stress on the line, with the
    potential of rupturing it.
    
    Bob

The electric company brings their line up to your house.  The phone 
company brings their line up to your house.  The water department brings 
their line up to your house.  The sewerage department brings their line 
up to your house.  Why don't you think the gas people would?  

Or are you just confused about them rolling the cost into the service
and not making you pay a one-time charge up front?  That sort of thing 
gets worked out with the public utilities commission.  Many public 
utilities are required to spread the cost of installing services over 
a number of years by putting it into their monthly service/connection 
fee.  The reason for this is that the house usually changes hands a few 
times during the life of a service connection, and it's difficult to 
apportion the cost at closing time.  This way you pay your part of the 
cost while you're a customer, and the next owner takes over when they 
buy the house.  No fighting over how much life is left in the service.

					>>>==>PStJTT 
				(former water company owner.)

    My neighbor (Hi, Jim!) converted from electric to gas heat.  Boston
    Gas showed up in the street one day with a backhoe and a utility
    truck.  They ripped a trench across the street, through some trees
    on the property line, across his lawn (over the meadow and through
    the woods), and under a fence.  From what he was saying, I guess
    they installed the feed right up to the outside of his basement wall.
    From there, he had to have a plumber come in and bore through that
    wall and make the final hookup.
    
    Maybe ComGas will do the same?
    
    BTW, the line was flexible plastic; it came off a big roll.  It looked
    like it could stand up very well to freeze/thaw heaving cycles, even
    though it was buried probably 2-3 ft. deep.
    
    Jim

We just had a conversion done from oil to gas for our tenant, it was 
amazing.

There was already gas to the house, but they split it out to two, put 
in the extra meter, and ran the new gas line to the furnace being 
converted.  

they came and evaluated the system, ordered the parts, and delivered all 
the stuff.  The day of the conversion people just showed up in 
rotation, it was incredible.  There were plumbers, heating people, the 
elec inspector, on and on.... everyone on time.

They converted the heat and hot water from oil to gas.  We had to 
decide whether to lease or buy the burner and the water heater.  The 
conversion didn't cost us a penny.  They even pulled the permit.

As I am accustomed to not getting anything for free, I was sure there
was a catch, but none.  There weren't even any costs as implied
earlier like a service charge, monthly fee, or whatever.   We pay for
our leased equipment since we chose that, the tenanat pays for the
gas, as usual. I guess they make enough money over the long haul for
the gas that they it's to their benefit to get them to convert. 

Karen

                The only that they don't do it free (at least that I
        know of) is when there isn't a gas line within some number of
        feet of your property. I could get gas to my house only under
        two conditions, either I pay for the line from the nearest
        "source" (about a 1000 feet away), or I get a bunch (not sure of
        number needed in "bunch") of my neighbors to also sign up in
        which case the gas company would do it all for free again.
                
                /s/     Bob

    	Boston Gas wanted me to pay.  I had a *live* �" rusting line
    in my house that I discovered soon after moving into the house.
    I wanted to use it for a gas stove, dryer and water heater and
    maybe, in the future, heat.  They would only replace the line and
    move the meter outside for free if I converted to gas heat.
    	Lucky for me they broke the old line trying to hook it up and
    flooded my cellar with gas.  They mobilized the leak team and replaced
    the old line with a new 3/4" pipe and moved the meter for free.
       
    					=Ralph=

>    	Lucky for me they broke the old line trying to hook it up and
>    flooded my cellar with gas.  

Gee, when I have that kind of luck, I don't call it luck.  But for you, 
I guess it was a lucky break, huh? (ark, ark.) 
						>>>==>PStJTT

    You're definitely better off if there is already a gas line coming up
    to the house.  When we bought our house in Exeter, NH in January, the
    sellers told us that Northern Utilities, the local gas company offered
    incentives to reinstate service.  We called a Northern sales representa-
    tive to discuss it.  They made us an offer we couldn't and didn't refuse.
    
    Northern Utilities paid the first $200 to plumb the house for gas.
    Actual cost was $215, we paid $15.  Northern made the arrangments with
    the plumber, all I had to do was be there when he showed up.  Northern
    GAVE us a 40 gallon gas water heater, which the contracted plumber
    hooked up to the gas, water and chimney.  The gas man showed up just
    before the plumbers and installed the meter.  

    The only problem:  the original 80 gallon electric is still in our
    cellar.  The pig is too big to get out of there.  BTW, we are now
    paying <$15 a month to heat our water.

    -Dan Hall    

    
    re .8  - Boston Gas came to my house too with their subcontract
    team and bulldozed the street, through my stone wall, front yard
    right up to the house, brought a gas line from the street to the
    house and charged me ~$950 in Aug-Sept, 1987. Did your neighbor pay 
    for the work they did?  When was it?
    
    re .9 Karen Dunn - Which Gas Company provided you with all that
    service for seemingly nothing?  
    
    It really stinks that your only choice on which utility company
    you use is determined by where you live within the state.  In the 
    Worcester area I had Comm Gas and Mass Electric. I never had a
    complaint with either.  In the Boston area we have Boston Edison and 
    Boston Gas. I haven't really had a complaint with Boston Gas except
    that they took a long time do the installation but it was a busy
    time of the year and they were very pleasant to do business with.
    I think Boston Edison should be electrocuted.
    
    Kathy
                                                  

    re .13
      Why don't you make use of the old electric water heater as a holding
    tank!  What you could do is have the water come into the old tank
    then feed into your gas heater.  By doing this you will be getting
    the water in the pretank to warmup to house temp. and making the
    gas heater not have to work as hard and so long.  
    
    
    Just a suggestion,
    Mike B.
    

	re .14  We have COMgas in Maynard.

    I was at the home show in Framingham a couple of weeks ago.  COMgas
    was there.  They were handing out flyers about interest free loans
    for energy-saving home improvements and (if I remember correctly)
    converting from oil to gas.  I'll have to find out if COMgas does
    offer free conversion.  
    
    Kathy

I am in the process of negotiating purchase of an 11 year old house with FHW
oil-fueled heating.  I was disturbed to see a large rust stain on the floor
(where large means about 6 foot diameter, oblong-ish) around the boiler.  When
we asked (through the agents) what the explanation was, the answer was that the
relay and transformer had burnt out at one time.  

I am dubious of this as an explanation of a hugh rust stain.  But I hope
someone out there knows why rust stains might occur on the floors of this kind
of furnace.  It isn't the first home we saw with that kind of stain (just the
first with one that large).

There was one panel on the furnace which looked completly rusted, I might add.

\bob

    I'd have questions about the explaination too I've never heard of
    a bad relay/transformer or any electrical componet causing rust.
    My memory is vague but I always thought water caused rust when
    in contact with iron. 8^) 
    I think you need a better explaination the other one I dont buy.
    
    -j
    

    I have a large rust spot on the floor caused by a leaking valve.
    There is a lot of rusty water sitting in the bottom of the boiler.
    Look for where the concentration of rust is the greatest and it
    will point you to the leak. The worst case is that the boiler is
    cracked and leaking. Or, it could just be a leaking component.
    You could always put it in the P&S agreement that you want to have
    it checked out before you buy, if you really like the house.
    
    Tim

    re: .21
    Add my vote to the "not likely!" crowd.  It doesn't necessarily
    mean that anybody is deliberately lying to you - maybe whatever
    really did go wrong caused or was caused by a burned-out transformer 
    and relay and that's all that the people can remember, but there 
    has got to be another part of the story you haven't gotten yet,
    namely, What Leaked.
    
    Ask for the name of whoever services the boiler and call them up
    to get the real details.  

	We had our house converted from oil to gas a few years back,
	and everything was free, except about 10 feet of pipe to our
	tenants furnace.  I think we paid about $17.00 for that.
	Karen's right, though.  They all come in one right after the
	other, all the way through to inspections.  

	I'm glad we converted, prospective tenants always reacted
	negatively to oil heat.  

	- Linda

    A bad control could cause the furnace to stay on and overheat. This
    could have caused a safety valve to let go and dump all that rusty water
    on the floor. I'd have it checked out before purchasing.

    Nick

    Okay, I am going to bite the bullet and convert my house to oil
    heat.  (I happen to like ceiling panel radiant electric heat, but,
    it seems that I will never be able to re-sell my property if I don't
    convert.)
    
    I appreciate all the suggestions in this file.  Based on the
    recommendations, I called Shattuck-Malone Oil and Lorden Oil.  My
    house is in Nashua.
    
    Shattuck came by today and suggested an AMTROL boiler in an FHW
    system.  They would also connect it to my electric water heater.
    I have seen no reference to AMTROL in the file.  Are there
    any comments?
    
    Also, should I be asking any other questions about the installation
    such as type of pipes, quipment etc.?  Is there anything that I
    must make sure is in the contract?  (I never have done anything
    to my house on this scale before and am a total novice.)
    
    Finally, is there another company that somebody thinks I should
    contact before signing on the bottom line?
    
    Thanks in advance for all your advice.
    
    Roger
    

    There are so many ways to get screwed by a contractor, at some point
    you just have to trust the guy to do the right thing.  I think your
    best defense is to make sure you choose a heating contractor with
    a good reputation, who has been in business for a while, whom you
    feel comfortable in dealing with.  You can write contracts 50 pages
    long, specify all the best materials,  and still feel as though you 
    got ripped off when the job is done.

    I would insist on a cast iron boiler.  Steel boilers are a little
    cheaper, but they are not as durable as cast iron boilers.  You
    could very easily replace a steel boiler in 15 years.
    
    Bill

    
    My oil/furnace man recommends Peerless boilers (for hot water or
    steam).  I respect his opinions very much.  He said that the 
    Well-MacLane (sp?) boilers are very popular now, but he feels they
    will begin to fail in the future, due to the fact that they use
    rubber gaskets rather than the steel nipples (used traditionally)
    to connect the sections.  Rubber decays, you know.  Incidentally,
    in case you think he might have a better deal going with Peerless,
    he told me that he could install either one for me at about the
    same price.  
    
    -tm
    

	I have had great luck with the Weil Mclean cast iron boilers.
I have installed > 50 over the past 10 years and have never had a
problem with the sections leaking.  It is interesting to note that
my own boiler has a bad section in it now.  It is the front section which
on the Utica boilers, contains the tankless water heater.  I had
considered replacing the section but feel the chances of sealing the
steel nipples that join the sections together could be nil.  This would
probably not be problem to do on a Weil Mclean boiler with its rubber 
gasket seals between sections.  The only warning that I would heed to the
owner of a Weil Mclean boiler is the use of chemical water treatments for 
the boiler.  These treatments, which are a common practice in steam boilers 
but of less use in FHW boilers, could deteriorate the rubber gaskets.  This 
summer, I will replace my neglected Utica with a new 3 section Weil Mclean.

	The Weil Mclean boiler is an efficient boiler to run.  Typically,
combustion efficiency runs at 84% with a Beckett burner.  I would suggest
that you request the Beckett burner over the Carlin and certainly over the
Riello.  The Beckett and Carlin use standard high speed pumps and motors but
the Beckett appears to hold its efficiency between cleaning's.  You can't
lose by choosing either the Beckett or Carlin.

	I have never installed a Peerless boiler but I have cleaned a few
in my time.  It is a restricted boiler (gases have a difficult time escaping)
that runs poorly with a burner that cannot burn cleanly.  This situation is
true with any boiler combination, but is especially true with the Peerless.  
When the Peerless boiler is matched with a smokeless burner it is a tough 
combo to beat.

Bill

    
    Re: .5
    
    How long has Weil Mclean been manufacturing the boilers with the
    rubber gaskets?  As a boiler should last for a *long* time
    (my father's boiler has been going for almost 30 years), I'm not 
    sure they have withstood the test of time.  As for their efficiency,
    they are quite good.  And, as for the burner, my heating guy 
    recommends Beckett.  They are efficient, and the company has been
    manufacturing good products for many years.
                                               
    -tm
    

RE: .*

I have heard that the boilers that are the best are Weil-McLean and 
Burnham from the plumbers I know.  The guy who uses the Burnham says he 
doesn't trust the gasket on the W-M.  I also agree about cast iron 
boiler and Beckett or Carlin burners. 

The Amtrol they are referring to is probably a brand of boiler mate for
hot water.  Essentially, it uses an extra zone to heat your hot water.
It is very efficient and I wish I had sprung for the extra money in our
house. With a new system, where they are already installing everything,
it shouldn't cost much more than other hot water systems.  It costs
about $500 (including circulator), is guaranteed for 15 years, has a
40-gallon tank (apparently plenty of hot water) and is more efficient
than almost anything else.   Look under hot water.  I have entered notes
on it. 

Make sure you get enough zones.  We got three for our relatively small 
cape (less that 2K sq. ft.).  I prefer circulators to circulator +
zone valves.  If you can get a plumber to do it, install the bypass 
circuits across zones (described a year or two ago) that allow you to 
pump two zones with the same circulator in the event of a failure 
(while you wait for repairs, you're not cold).  

Hope this helps,

Alex

    
    	Hi,  I just moved into a new house in september and it has an oil
    burner fhw system in it. My question is: should it be serviced only
    after the first year? ie cleaned.  or is this an every other year 
    schedule? 
    paul
    

    I get mine cleaned once a year, and it's amazing how much crud comes
    out of it each year.  My guess is that the increas in boiler
    efficiency more than pays for the cost of getting it cleaned,
    and the bit of preventative maintenance they do (new nozzle, new
    tank filter, etc.) may keep you from getting stuck with no heat 
    some bleak January night.  I consider the yearly cleaning to be
    cheap insurance.

    My furnace service company always leaves a tag with the date of
    the last service.  If you can't find the tag and don't know when
    the furnace was last cleaned, get it done before winter.
    
    Also, your home insurance policy will cover damage done by a faulty
    furnace only if the furnace was properly maintained.  

    Steve

    I need help determining wether or not I should replace my very
    old, oil-fired, forced hot water furnace with electric heat.
    
    So that we don't get hung up on too many details, just let me
    say that due to remodeling requirements this replacement would
    involve 1. removing old chimney, 2. building a new chimney, 
    3. buying a new furnace with hot water heating capability or a
    seperate hot water heater, 4. digging up and disposing of old
    oil tank, 5. buying and installing a new oil tank in the basement,
    rewiring for furnace, and 6. all new heating registers in the
    house.
    
    There are two main reasons I am considering electric heat; 
    1. I would have much greater flexibility in the type and location
    of the new electric heat registers, and 2. I would hope to eliminate
    most of the needs listed above, but in particular the building of
    a chimney (big $). Correct me if I am wrong, but if I have electric
    heat and an eletric hot water heater I have no need for a chimney??!
    Is that correct?
    
    Any other comments pro or con on electric heat would be appreciated.
    
    							Thanks, Art
     

    A major consideration for electric heat is the COST OF ELECTRICITY
    at your location. Here in New England, electric heat is viewed
    as a negative if you decide to sell your house. Electricity is just
    too expensive! Maybe if you pay 4 or 5 cents/kwh, it might make
    sense, but usually it doesn't work that way. Calculate your costs
    carefully before deciding.
    
    Eric

    Thanks for the input. I realize that this would be a more costly
    alternative for the electricity itself VS oil etc., but considering
    the initial savings in the chimney, oil tank, furnace etc. we can
    spend more for the electricity for a long time and still be ahead.
    The main thing, however, that I had not mentioned in my original
    note is that my primary heat source is a wood stove and my oil
    fired, forced hot water system is my secondary heat source. Having
    a wood stove as a primary heat source would more than likely be
    more of a negative to a potential buyer than electric heat so I
    already have that problem!
    
    							Art
    

    You don't need a Chimney for oil Heat! Check with your local
    Heating Company, for Power Venting. Power Venting vents the fumes
    outside via Duct work. Much less expensive than installing a
    Chimney.
    
    

>        There are two main reasons I am considering electric heat; 
>    1. I would have much greater flexibility in the type and location
>    of the new electric heat registers, and 2. I would hope to eliminate
>    most of the needs listed above, but in particular the building of
>    a chimney (big $). 
    
    Sounds like the reasoning I used 6 years ago when I built my house
    and installed electric heat.  I have wood as my primary heat too.
    I'm now looking into what it's going to cost to replace my electric
    heat with something I can afford to use.
    
    I think you'd be making a mistake if you replaced oil with electric.

    
    
    Art
    
    If we're talking about the same house you've been working on for
    x years (dig) how about oil forced hot air, the house is wide open
    and you could put vents in the floor, you would have to buy a hot
    water heater anyway, and use outside ventilation re; .3. your only
    added expense is an oil tank.
    
    Randy
    

		-< Affordable electric heat >-

Yes friends, you too can heat your house with ECONOMICAL electric heat!

Or so the ad goes...

I live in Sterling and the municipal light company is looking at ways of
lowering the cost of electricity(they have to with a recent hike in rates
the average is 14 cents/KWH...oouch.... due to Seabrook and the Duke).

Anyway there is a company in Vermont that sells (imports from Europe) thermal
mass storage devices. The idea is that most power companys have cheap (e.g
5 cents/KWH) electricity that can be bought from 11PM to 7AM. This company's
system uses a temperature sensor that attempts to predict how much heat you'll
need the next day and turns on the electricity at 11PM. This electricity is
then converted to heat and stored in special "storage bricks" that will slowly
give back the stored heat into the room the next day using only a small fan
to circulate the heat. Depending on how much heat you need (based on the
sensor reading) you turn on the electricity for a varing period of time 
starting at 11PM until 7AM. The size of the stoage devices varies (larger
stores more heat for a longer time) but they generally are the size of a 
radiator (e.g. 9-10 inches deep, 25-35 inches tall, 40 inches long).

Since you only "use" electricity at night when rates are cheap, electric heat
becomes affordable...

Of course since the electricity being converted to "storage heat" takes hours
you need to use something else to heat your house during the night or after
the "stored heat" has been exhausted but that's where the woodstove and a few 
strategically placed (and timed) thermostats come in.

Sounds worthwhile enough to investigate further...

    I realize there are many notes on converting to oil heat, but I
    believe this is a new question.
    
    The house we just bought has a foundation for a garage.  We're planning
    on completing the garage next year, with a new bedroom over the
    garage.
    
    The question is: does it make sense to convert to oil heat this
    year, allowing for an extra large furnace/boiler in anticipation
    of the new living space?  Or should we wait until we know exactly
    what the new space will be?  How much more will it cost to have
    the plumbing/heating contractor come out a second time, to complete
    the heating in the addition?
    
    Does the situation change if we leave the new bedroom unfinished,
    and hence unheated, for a few years?
    
       Gary

    I think you'd be making a mistake going to electricity. You may
    even have to upgrade your main electrical panel to accommodate the
    electric heat(need a 200 amp service). I strongly suggest you
    reconsider the oil, gas alternative. As mentioned earlier, so newer,
    high efficiency boilers/furnaces don't require a chimney, only a
    vent. You also might get away with a less expensive metal chimney
    or dropping a liner down your existing chimney. What's wrong with
    your chimney anyway? Another consideration besides the drawbacks
    of trying to resell a house with electric heat/wood primary, is
    that we aren't getting any younger and lets face it, heating with
    wood is alot of back breaking work. I use to have a home that was
    set up with a wood furnace primary/electric backup and I had to
    dedicate all my spare time to chopping and getting wood stacked
    away. My new house has oil FHW heat and I'll never go back! I'd
    rather spend my spare time fishing, bike riding or swimming with
    my family. Another thing about renewing your FHW system is that
    most boilers come with a tankless hot water heater, so all winter
    your hot water is indirectly a byproduct from your making of heat,
    thus it could be considered a very inexpensive source of hot water.
    let us know what your decision is but give my vote to anything but
    electric.

I would think that it would be more a factor of your financial situation.
    I do know that if you know the approximate size of the new room,
    how many windows, outside doors, etc., the heating company could
    easily estimate your additional heating needs and recommend a suitable
    furnace/boiler. You don't have to wait until the room is built.
    If you add the system now you could also zone off the proposed addition
    and tie it in when the heat is needed. On the other hand, with an
    addition in the works it might be good to have a few extra dollars
    tucked away incase some unforeseen expenses pop up and if they don't
    you can proceed to revamp the heating system. Just remember to make
    allowances during the construction phases to accept the heating
    system at some later date.

    I used coal stoves has primary heat and electric as secondary. After
    2 years of this we switch to forced hot water by oil. I sold 1 stove
    and use the other occasionally. The main reason I got my house at
    the price I did was due to the fact it was total electric and the
    previous owners used wood stoves.  I believe my house would sell
    easier now that it has an efficient heating system.
    
    My 2cents worth.
    

      I  think  you  can  figure out what to do by asking yourself three
      questions.  
      
      QUESTION 1. Are you financially able and willing to do both at one
      time?  If your ARE then it will probably be more convenient to  do
      both at once.  i.e. only get your house torn up once, etc.  If you
      are NOT able or willing, then one must come first.  See question 2.
      
      QUESTION  2.  Does  your  present heat system have the capacity to
      heat your addition? If it does NOT then you must upgrade your heat
      before  (or concurrent with) adding your addition; If it DOES then
      you can do the heat upgrade before or  after  the  addition.   See
      question 3.
      
      QUESTION  3.  Adding the garrage and bedroom will make your home a
      more pleasant place to live.  Upgrading your heat will  also  make
      your  home  more pleasant plus (probably) saving you money on your
      heat bill.  Which is more important to you?  Do that first.
      
      This  logic  is  based on the assumption that the dollars saved by
      having it all done at once will be minimal. I think that this is a
      good  assumption,  but  it  does  depend  on  your present heating
      system.  I'd suggest that you put this question to one or more  of
      the heating contractors that you're thinking of using.

Re 2466.6
> Yes friends, you too can heat your house with ECONOMICAL electric heat!

"Thermal mass storage devices": now there's a mouthful. In UK they are known 
by the more descriptive name of "night-storage heaters."  

Let me tell you that these things are bad news. The Electricity Boards (the 
equivalent of the US electrical utility companies) push these in the UK for 
the same reason - making use of cheap off-peak capacity. The theory is 
attractive but the practice is less attractive. 

The main drawback is that if you "charge up" the bricks overnight you have
paid for the heat whether or not you need ANY or ALL of it the next day. The
devices are well-insulated but there is SOME heat loss so you can't charge up
the system and then just draw on it a few days later and still expect to have
the "full charge" available.

Unlike say, a conventional electrical fan heater with a thermostat, you can't
use these devices to quickly heat up a room and then keep it at a temperature.
"Heat-up" times are comparatively slow and keeping an even temperature in the
room is not as easy: they are pretty inflexible.

The heaters are best suited to houses where there is a requirement for
continuous heating throughout the day  e.g. mother and infants at home.  They
are pretty inappropriate for a working couple.  At the risk of generalization
let me say that most users of this form of heating find it comfortable but
expensive.

To avoid the problem of depleting the "charge" during the day you need to be
sure that you have adequate capacity, and the capital cost of these things 
becomes a very relevant consideration. Having said all this the attraction of
these heaters will be critically dependant on the differential between peak
and off-peak electricity costs.  I can't remember what the differential in
costs is in the UK. I don't think it's as large as the 14cents : 5cents ratio.
I _think_ the ratio is more like 2:1 

I suggest that if anyone wants to pursue this further they try canvassing
opinion in the RDGCSS::GREAT_BRITAIN conference, where you will be certain
to find further testimonials and probably a nice little rat-hole.  :-)

Henry Gillard - TSC Sydney

    RE:: .7
    
    	Since you asked so many questions in your note that other readers
    	may be interested in seeing a response to, I am answering them
    	here rather than directly. 
    
    	I am installing 200AMP service anyway for othere reasons.
    
    	My chimney is a real KLUDGE (sp?) setup, but besides it is in
    	the way of a small addition to the house so it goes!
    
    	I am looking into the furnace vent in case we stay with oil.
    
    	I HATE gas and would NOT have it in my house or anywhere near
    	me if I can help it. I don't trust gas, period.
    
    	Chopping wood is not a chore for me. I find it good exercise,
    	I love watching the flames, it is romantic, it is quick and
    	HOT! I love it!
    
    	Yes, we have our water heater in a tankless unit today and
    	indeed in the winter I use less oil than if it were seperate,
    	but I also run my furnace all summer to have hot water. I now
    	resort to completely shutting it down during the day and back
    	on at tnight. It is real quick so I can do it.
    
    	
    RE:: .9
    
    	From what I have read here about Thermal Mass Storage units,
    	I have not seriously considered it.
    
    
    To all noters who have responded to my plea for help - THANKS!
    

    Anyone have any experience with the following FHA by oil furnaces?
    
    	AIRCO hiboy 115000btu output  $849 DIY
    	DAYTON hiboy 115000btu output $882 DIY
    	
    	HALLMARK hiboy 112000btu output $2100 installed
    	Williamson hiboy 115000btu output $2350 installed
    
    I am considering these units to replace an existing hiboy FHA by
    oil unit which is 30+ yrs old. If I install it myself I will use
    the existing plenum and old air return. The installed price includes
    removal of the old unit replacing the plenum and cold air return
    which the dealers insist on doing.
    

    Be sure that the openings on your new unit are the same as your
    old unit, or you will have to order a new plenum and return. Which
    will cost you about $20.00 - $30.00 each to have made Other than
    that I have no experiance with these brands of oil furnaces. 
                                   
    

            <<< JOET::DUA1:[000000.NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;1 >>>
                         -< Better living through DIY >-
================================================================================
Note 2499.0                 Electric to oil heat ???                   4 replies
USADEC::KWILSON                                      77 lines  27-JUL-1988 13:02
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I have searched through most of the notes regarding heating
    system conversions and couldn't get all my quesions answered
    there so here's another note on the subject. I recently got
    a quotation on the cost to rip out my electric heat and replace
    it with FHW by oil. My house is a 30 x 24 colonial with an
    unfinished basement. I received 2 estimates, one with a tankless
    water heater and one with a conventional water heater. The 
    quotes are as follows:
    
    Tankless water heater set up. 
    
    Weil-McLain P358WT w/Beckett AFG      $1581.18
    
    Backflow, mix valve, smoke pipe,
    expansion tank complete, draft
    regulator, feed valve, relief
    valve, ball valves, sheetrock,
    misc piping and fittings.              $460.70
    
    Oil tank complete with line            $400.00
    
    3 Honeywell zone valves, 3
    Honeywell T-87 thermostats.            $252.00
    
    80' slant fin #30, 25' dummy #30,
    end caps and corners                   $728.51
    
    600' 3/4 type M copper                 $576.00
    
    Removal and permit                      $75.00
    
    Labor                                 $2000.00
    
    Tax                                    $199.92
                                          --------
    Completed job price                   $6273.31
    
    The quote with the separate water heater was $5885.48 and the
    only difference from the above was a Weil-McLain P-268W instead
    of the P-368. In addition to this is the cost of the water heater
    which is as follows:
    
    Amtrol 41 g boilermate with circulator,
    aquastat and relay                       $803.52
    
    3/4" type L piping and misc fittings      $82.80
    
    Labor                                    $150.00
    
    Tax                                       $44.32
                                             -------
    Completed job price                     $1080.64
    
    As for venting the system(s) I have a flue in my chimney
    available for this purpose so no additional charge will
    be necessary. My questions are:
    
    1. Any feedback on tankless hot water systems? There are only
       2 adults in the house.
    
    2. Any experience with Weil-McLain units?
    
    3. Any experience with Amtrol water heaters?
    
    4. Does the price seem reasonable considering the amount
       or work?
    
    5. How would you set up the 3 zones in a colonial type house
       given the situation that there are 3 bedrooms upstairs
       and only one is used, which is on one side of the house?
    
    Thanks for any and all suggestions. This is something I have to
    do as I live in Hudson and am tired of the ever increasing electric
    costs.
    
    Keith
    

            <<< JOET::DUA1:[000000.NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;1 >>>
                         -< Better living through DIY >-
================================================================================
Note 2499.1                 Electric to oil heat ???                      1 of 4
TLE::MEIER "Bill Meier - VAX Ada"                    35 lines  27-JUL-1988 14:37
                                 -< Comments >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I have a very similar configuration that was installed in the house
    that was built for me.
    
    1. I think tankless hot water systems are fine. Our house currently has
    2 adults. You can get hot water for a shower forever. The temperature
    may osilate a little until the burner catches up with the demand, but
    thats pretty quick. My installer told me the efficiently of the
    tankless system does decrease a little with age, and of course yearly
    cleaning of the boiler is important, and if I had a problem with demand
    in the future, its easy to add on a well insulated 20 gallon extra
    storage tank, and that should not cost much, and provide plenty of
    reserve capacity. 
    
    2. I believe Weil-McLain units are one of the better [best?] units
    on the market.
    
    4. Mine was a package deal as part of the house construction, and
    I don't know the actual price to be able to comment.

    5. I was quoted a flat price of $300/zone when they were building my
    house. I went for 3 zones. Its basically a two level house; no basement
    per say. The upper level has kitchen, dining, living, and master
    bedroom with bath. The lower level has two bedrooms, bath, family room,
    and shop/utility area. I put all bedrooms/bathrooms on one zone, the
    remainder of the upstairs on another zone, and the remaining downstairs
    on the third. For the extra $300 bucks, I wish I had added another zone
    or two. Primarily for comfort and energy savings (in that order).
    
    So, I'd go with a zone setup that gets you the most flexibility.
    I don't think having a separate zone for the single used bedroom
    is silly or wasteful.
    
    Yes, I had an all electric house in Hudson myself; those $350/month
    winter electric bills are killers! (and thats with no on home during
    the day). 

            <<< JOET::DUA1:[000000.NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;1 >>>
                         -< Better living through DIY >-
================================================================================
Note 2499.2                 Electric to oil heat ???                      2 of 4
USADEC::KWILSON                                       5 lines  27-JUL-1988 15:53
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I see from your last statement that you know exactly why I am doing
    this change. Thanks for your comments, keep 'em coming.
    
    Keith
    

            <<< JOET::DUA1:[000000.NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;1 >>>
                         -< Better living through DIY >-
================================================================================
Note 2499.4                 Electric to oil heat ???                      4 of 4
SSPENG::ALINSKAS                                     10 lines  29-JUL-1988 09:06
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thats a great price for the Weil-Mclain! I had several quotes to replace my
old coal-converted furnace. I got quotes for $3000 for a 3 section Weil-Mclain
ONLY. I went with my present oil company that quoted 2900 for 4 section Weil
Mclain, Carlin burner and new oil tank and all the extra plumbing. 

There alot of bad press for tankless, but this one works great. There is 
unlimited hot water. I have the auqastat set at 130. If you need much more 
hot water you can always raise it I guess, but I have plenty of hot water 
at 130. 

    The detailed estimate in .8 now has me wondering.  We just got our
    first estimate, and it came in at about $6600.  The problem is that the
    dollar amounts aren't itemized.  The estimate lists things like the
    boiler, slant fin radiators, etc., but with no dollar amounts next to
    eacy, and no quantity amounts (number of feet, etc.) where appropriate.
    I believe it also omits items like the type of zones (circulator vs
    compressor), etc., but I'm not sure -- I don't have it in front of me.
    It does say that permits will be extra. 
    
    Is this normal for a first estimate?  Do I need to nag contractors
    to get all the details, or should I expect any competant place to
    put it all down in writing, without my asking for it?
    
    I'd prefer even more details, such as locations of radiators, where
    they plan on getting them up to the second floor (closet or wall),
    location of oil tank, etc.
    
       Gary

    re -1 It may be that my estimate was in such great detail because
          I'm applying for the interest free loans being distributed
          by PERC. The oil company I got the estimate from routinely
          includes the interest free program in their ads and probably
          have to provide a detailed estimate in order to get approval.
          State Oil of Framingham did the estimate if that's of any
          interest. I meet with PERC this week so hopefully I can get
          the work begun before the snow begins to fall.
    
          Keith
    

    I met with PERC yesterday to discuss my conversion and all went
    well except for the tankless hot water set up. They wouldn't go
    for this since it requires the boiler to be running constantly?
    and is less efficient than the separate water heater. I guess 
    I'll be going with the AMTROL water heater set up at a cost of
    (gulp) about $6800. They then give you a list of banks and other
    lending institutions who will work with the program and off you
    go. DCU is one of them.
    
    Keith
    

I've looked through a few of the heating_gas keyword notes and this 
seems to fit here as good as anywhere else.

Received a letter from my local gas & electric, Fitchburg G&E, (MASS)
stating that their records showed inactive gas service to my house.
It's true, the line comes up to the side of my house (but not into the
house) and as far as I know it's never been used.  Neighbor said the
gas company came by a few years back asking everyone if they would like
gas service, previous owner said sure, why not but never actually used
any. Anyway, the letter goes on to state that, by LAW, they are
required to disconnect and seal unused gas service at the house and at
the street and that unless I contact them they will indeed do just
that. 

I have currently a 30+ year old oil-burning American Standard furnace 
feeding a fhw heating system and providing me with "tankless" hot 
water. Last inspection showed it as 85% efficiency (stack?) and for the 
last three years I've been burining about 600 gallons per (and I don't 
keep the house cold in the winter either).

Now, I come from Texas where natural gas was (past tense) cheaper than
dirt, an unwanted, and often flared off, byproduct of the oil
(pronounced "awl" down there) drilling process. Lately it's become more
valuable but still by far the best fuel for heating, HW, and cooking
down south.  Anyway, I'm biased and, even if I don't use it, I like to
know it's there. 

Now here's the kicker.  FG&E says they will "give" me one of the
following if I will reinstate service: 1) A free gas conversion burner
for my furnace, or 2) a free 40-gallon HW heater or 3) a $600 rebate
towards the purchase of a new gas furnace. 

I've been thinking about installing a gas HW heater as I don't feel 
it's too efficient for the existing furnace to fire up everytime I turn 
on the hot water in the kitchen, furthermore, it would be nice to turn 
that big sucker off in the summer as it is a fairly major source of 
heat sitting there in the basement. On the other hand, the thing has 
been operating for these last 30 years. What might happen if I shut it 
down for months at a time? Potential problems? 

Secondly - efficiencies are relative here. 600 gallons of fuel oil a 
year vs. how many therms of NG. I mean, is gas so expensive here in New 
England? Fuel oil isn't that cheap and the price is very much dependant 
on world events. At least NG is abundantly availble in the US and NG 
producers, transporters and resellers are all regulated by state and 
federal agencies (PUCs, ICC, FERC et. al).

Thirdly - is it really just a simple matter of converting a furnace to 
gas by changing out the burner or somesuch? 

Comments?

I will have a gas co rep out to get his (naturaly unbiased) opinions 
but I would value yours much more.

Chuck

    I vote for the gas.  no oil company to call up every month to fill
    the tank. no constant inspections to go thourgh.  no hassels with
    oil smell.  and when your neighbor calls up because they are cold
    and the truck can not get trough then you can offer hospatility.
    
    I just had the leak in the front of our house fixed and they were
    very nice.  did not cost me anything.  the foreman said it would
    normally cost about $1000 just to put the gas in.  and if it is
    not an active service and I was not using it they would have charged
    even more.  By the way they also were nice about putting the gas
    meter on the outside of the building.
    
    Also the cost of heating my house over the same at the neighbors
    was less last year.  we have the same amount of square feet and
    but a lot less insulation.
    

Well, I went with the water heater - a 40 gallon model with a 10 year 
warranty. The installation didn't cost me a cent and the plumbers even 
helped me carry an old, 400 lb. stove out of my basement and into my 
truck.

The catch? From my standpoint there isn't one. It is in the gas 
company's best interest not just to sell me gas, but to avoid having 
to dig up the street and cut and cap the service as required by law 
here in Mass.

Such a deal, as I have been considering doing this anyway.

Chuck

        Anybody know  differences of  Propane  versus  Natural Gas  heat ?

        -  Is propane or natural gas more expensive ?
        -  Does one or the other provide more warmth during the winter
           at less cost (More Efficient)??
        -  How does the propane gas get supplied to the home usually?
              By underground tank or by piped in from some central source ??
        
        THNKS

LPG (propane) is usually pretty safe. They are supplied by an
external tank and plumbed into the house. LPG is heavy and is
hard to dissipate so a leak is almost disasterous.

Usually, where there's natural gas, LPG are little or low demand.
Volume wise, LPG has higher BTUs than natural gas. The utilities
companies are constantly adjusting the cost of our gas bill but I
think the problem is by consumer volume over the ability of the
gas to heat.

hope this helps.

cal

    1>  LPG is more costly mainly because of the individual delivery.
    	Whereas nautural gas is plumbed underground directly to your
    	home LPG has to be delivered to your home via tank truck, 
      	similar to an oil truck.
    
    2>  As in .1 LPG does have a better BTU rating than natural gas
    	but I don't believe it is enough to offset the price difference.
    
    3>	As described in 1>

    
    	If I remember correctly one main difference is that natural gas 
    from the street is methane and is lighter than air.  A leak is
    dangerous but the gas will dissipate.  LPG, is propane, and is heavier
    than air.  A leak can fill up the cellar and the gas is tougher
    to dissipate.
    	The heat value of propane is over twice that of methane.  Methane
    is 1,000 BTU/ft� while propane is 2,500 BTU/ft�.  I agree with .1
    I don't think the heat rating will offset the difference in price
    due to the delivery costs.
    	Remember that if you switch from one gas to another that the
    jets in your gas appliances must be changed.
    
    				=Ralph=
    
    	(while I've got my reference book out, LPG weighs 4.2 lbs per
    gallon)

    
    I believe, too, that the price of LP gas is tied to the price of
    crude oil.
    

    
    IF NATURAL GAS IS AVAILABLE USE IT..  There is a difference in BTU
    value between LPG and natural but it is not significant enough to
    offset the difference in cost. If natural gas is not available LPG
    or LNG (liquified natural gas) are fine but I don't think I would
    want to heat a house that way. 
    
    just a gas stove for cooking = ~$10-15 mo.
    gas stove and water heater = ~$25-35 mo.
    
    These are my figures from the three houses that I lived in that
    had bottled gas. Bulk delivey is much cheaper than by the bottle
    plus there is less hassle. there are several types of home gas 
    installation. 
    
    2----100lb. bottles
    1----200 lb bottle
    1----500 lb bottle
    1----1000 lb bottle
    
    The 1k bottle must be enclosed in a fenced area and a certain distance
    away from any buildings. The rest can be up against the house but
    must be below the level of any window or three feet away from any
    window or door.
    
   

        Is there  any  simple  way  of determining the jetting on a gas
        cooker?  By that, I mean whether it's set up for natural gas or
        for propane.  I  recently  bought  a  house  with  propane  for
        cooking only (two tanks by  kitchen  window), but even with the
        cooker control on the 'WARM' position  (lowest  possible),  the
        gas flame is enough to boil liquid  in a saucepan.  Could it be
        that the cooker is set up wrongly?
        
        Andy.
        

    
    
    RE: .6 not true in MA.
    
    You are probably right . Although there  could be local codes also.
    I was in Conn. with 500# next to the house. The installer almost
    wouldnt put it where I wanted to because there was a window right
    next to where the tank was but because of the grade it wound up
    where the sill was above the level of the tank top.
    
     

    re.7
    If I understand you correctly you're saying that the stove burns
    too hot in which case chances are the stove is jetted for natural
    gas. I'd pull one out and replace it with a new one made for propane
    and see what difference it makes they are very inexpensive probably
    less than $1.00 each.
    
    -j
    

        Thanks - I'll give it a try and see what happens.
        
        Andy
        

    Propane can be a problem in VERY cold climates.  It is happy to
    remain liquid at atmospheric pressure and -40 degrees.  Even if
    your climate doesn't get to -40, heavy demand can lower the temperature
    of the gas tank to -40 due to the boiling action as the gas is used.
    The result is that the pressure approaches zero and so does your
    ability to heat.  A burried tank would be useful and the earth could
    act as a heat source and/or large thermal mass around the tank.
    
    P.S.  Four years in Messina, New York proved that -35 was typical
    and -40 was not uncommon.  Propane was quite unreliable in that
    climate
    

    I'll have to second the notion in .11
    
    Two years ago there was a 2 or 3 day "cool" spell of -15~ DAYS.
    A very chilling way to find out that gas can freeze.
    
    Although, one pan of warm water did thaw it out in a few minutes.

    
    
    The town I live in (Goffstown NH) says that if you have natural
    gas in the street then you CANNOT use propane. The only people who
    can use propane are those who don't have natural gas available to
    them.
    
    Mike

.-2>    Although, one pan of warm water did thaw it out in a few minutes.
                  *******
       
       One pan of water on _what_ ?  The gas bottle ? how big was it ?
       
       Since I'm planning on living at an elevation of over 9000+ ft and
       using LP as a backup to a wood source, I'm very interested to hear
       about the potential problems of LP.
       
       Thanks.
       Scott (who just signed the p&s on a DIY'ers dream in the mountains
              and is waiting for the bank to make up its mind on the sale).

    I just finished installation of a Magic Chef gas fired, forced hot
    air furnace (I had to do the conversion from natural to Liquified
    Petroleum Gas - a simple job).  The input BTU rating is 100,000
    BTU per hour (this is the amount of gas required), the output rating
    is 96,000 BTU per hour (heat available at the plenum).  Would you
    believe this give 96% efficiency.
    
    I installed a 3" schedule 40 PVC exhaust vent (no chimney required).
    The exhaust gasses are so cool, that a fan is used to exhaust them
    because they won't rise sufficiently.  After 3 days, I'm very happy
    with the system.  I used to heat with electric radiant ceilings.
    I expect to save considerable.  If you are interested, the costs
    were approximately:
    
    Furnace          $1100
    Ducts & Plenums    800
    Air Conditioner   1300
    Thermostat (Pgmbl)  70
    Electical          120 
    Gas pipe           100
    Gas tank              no charge (loan agreement)
    TOTAL            $3490                 
                      
    I did all the labor myself. 

    The Boston Fuel Consortium is an organization which purportedly
    obtains low oil prices for its subscribers.  The idea is that a
    lot of home owners buy oil from the firms to which BFC assigns them.
    BFC negotiates a low price with its member companies presumably
    using the large amount of customers as leverage.  The oil companies
    benefit by having a good source of customers.  I'm not sure if BFC
    takes a cut anywhere.
    
    Anyway it costs nothing to find out what company you would be assigned
    to or the price of BFC members' oil.  You can find out the oil price
    by calling.  To join you would fill out a BFC application and they
    mail back a fuel company assignment.  
    
    I don't know if the BFC is limited strictly to Boston.  They have
    a separate form (and a better rate) for owners of multiple unit buildings.
    
    The phone number is 617-524-3950.  You can call and ask them what
    the BFC rate is.  I have no stake in this other than more customers
    conceivably could mean more leverage and lower oil prices.
    
        Mitch    

    I just called, got a price of .77/gal for COD, .81/gal for credit.
    Not the worst, not the best.
    
    gjd

	I've looked thru most of the HEAT-..... notes and can't
	find anything on how to size an HVAC system.  I am building
	a highly insulated home in Westford, Mass.  Does anyone 
	know how I can calculate (SIZE) the system for the 2100sq ft.
	home?  I know the R-Values for all the walls, roof, windows,
	and the volume of living space.  

	There is a solarium but I don'e know how to calculate the
	amound of solar gain I will have.  Being New England I'm
	not relying on this for heat so will size the system without
	regard for solar gain.  I DO plan on air conditioning and
	an fresh air exchange system as well.

	Thanks for any help you can provide.

	Frank

    What the heating contractors do is give the numbers to their suppliers
    who plug them into their computer.  If you're a good talker, you can
    probably get them to do the same for you.

    You might also try "PERC - the peoples energy resource coop" They're a
    state group funded by several millon $'s in utility company $'s. I know
    they do this sort of thing for additions and changes to an existing
    house with a computer - I would assume they could do the same for new
    construction. I think they're in Framingham, MA. I'll dig out the phone
    # if you're interested. 

    Does anyone out there know where I can go to get info on converting
    a relatively new (6 yrs old) steam furnace to forced hot water. I 
    know I need some components, circulator, expansion tank etc and some
    controls but would like some sort of guide on how to install them.
    Thanks.

    
    Re: .5
    
    Out of curiosity, why would you want to do this?  A well tuned
    steam system with a new boiler is probably more efficient
    than hot water (faster heat transfer).  If there are problems
    with your system it may be easier to fix them than to convert
    to forced hot water.
    
    -tm
    

	re: .8  Thanks I did contact PERC 879-8572, Rob Slade.
	He's sending out a worksheet which will help determine
	the heating needs for the house.  Once that's been calculated
	I shall continue to persue duct sizes for the SUPPLIES and
	RETURNS.  Thanks for the PERC and still hope to hear from someone
	with knowledge of sizing the ducts.

    Anyone ever have a hot-air heating system fitted to an existing house?
    What did it cost when, and what were the attendant problems; is it a
    worthwhile thing to do? 
    
    I'm asking because most of the houses are hot-water systems, which tend
    to get upset if driven for a long time without letup, as is the case
    when the system has to bring the temp up from a very low night/day
    setting.  I've had to replace the pump twice now because of the leaks
    caused by overload, and it'd be nice to find a way to get around that.
    It occurs to me that installing a hot-air system either to replace or
    supplement the existing hot-water system would solve the problem:  heat
    the house with air, which is quick, and then maintain it (presuming the
    dual system) with the water, which is quiet and dust free. 
                           
    						=maggie

    Yup - did it last fall.  I had a electric system in a 30x50 ranch,
    and had a FHA system installed.  I don't, however, think that you
    have to replace your whole system - could be very $$y.  You will
    also have to get a water heater.

re .0:

>    I'm asking because most of the houses are hot-water systems, which tend
>    to get upset if driven for a long time without letup, as is the case
>    when the system has to bring the temp up from a very low night/day
>    setting.  I've had to replace the pump twice now because of the leaks
>    caused by overload, and it'd be nice to find a way to get around that.

    Perhaps the boiler is undersized, or the pump is wimpy.  A new boiler
    will cost much less (and be much less disruptive) than a FHA retrofit.

    How many degrees lower do you have your thermostat at night?  You have
    to balance fuel savings with comfort.  The dollars you spend on a FHA
    retrofit will buy a lot of fuel.

    What kind of radiators do you have?  The more massive they are, the
    longer they take to heat up and the longer the stay hot.  If you've
    got large cast iron radiators, you may want to shift the day/night
    cycle earlier to take this into account.

    How well insulated is your house?  Adding more attic insulation, or
    even blowing insulation into the walls, has a pretty fast payback.
    If the windows are drafty, interior plastic storms will help.

    FHW has many advantages over FHA, and while multiple fuel heating
    systems might make sense, I don't see any reason for having both
    FHW and FHA.

    <--(.1)
    
    How much did it cost?  Did you wind up with poor headroom in the
    cellar?  Did the ductwork get carried to all rooms, or do you
    fundamentally leave the bedrooms to shift for themselves (which
    is what I would prolly do)
    
    <--(.2)
    
    No, the problem comes because the radiators (reasonably modern finned
    tube baseboards) simply can't transfer heat into the environment as
    fast as the furnace can heat the water.  At some point, the thermal
    overload switch cuts out and the pump sits there and shifts this *very*
    hot water around the system.  The amount of heat and pressure involved
    is what gets the pump seals upset.
    
    I keep the house at 10C (ca. 50F) at night and whenever I'm not home,
    as during the day.  The attic is fully insulated, snow doesn't melt
    off the roof.                     
    
    One alternative I've considered is fitting additional radiator
    sections, essentially doubling the capacity.  But it's not clear to me
    that that would even solve the problem because I don't understand the
    physics of radiation and convection well enough to know whether I would
    get a 1:1 increase in the transfer rate by increasing the radiator
    capacity, or even if it did whether the new rate would be sufficient to
    absorb the furnace's capacity to heat water.  Plus it's unclear whether
    a doubling of capacity could even be achieved within the current
    cosmetics.                      
    
    (I should probably make clearer that I rent the house I'm living
    in now; this question is a lookahead)
    
    						=maggie

    The way you describe FHW systems has some flaws in it (at least
    any system I know of). The temperature of the water (which controls
    the furnace cycling) is controlled by water temperature. The water
    is only heated high enough for the limit switch to make (which is
    normal). If there is an overtemp shutdown, then the furnace isn't
    being controlled properly.
    
    The circulator pumps turn on in response to the thermostat requesting
    heat. Assuming a single pump system with multiple zones, when the
    zone thermostat requests heat, the zone valve opens and the pump
    turns on, circulating water. The seals on the pump shaft should
    take any normal water temperature that they are exposed to. There
    should be a guage on the furnace so you can see the actual temp.
    A problem that can blow seals is over pressure. Under normal
    conditions, the feeder valve will only allow more water into the
    system if its pressure is too low (below 12 PSI on my prev house
    system). As water warms up, it expands and its the job of the expansion
    tank to absorb this pressure. If the tank is defective, then the
    pressure can go too high (again, my old system would only increase
    to 15-17 PSI normally). If it gets too high, the pressure relief
    valve should open to relieve the pressure (if it gets somewhere
    around 30 PSI in the above example).
    
    So if your pumps are blowing seals, first check that the water temp
    is normal, then the pressure (compare cold to hot pressure) and
    then the pressure relief valve (if your furnace pressure is above
    the value on the relief valve, you have a problem that requires
    IMMEDIATE attention. There still is the possibility of 2 defective
    pumps or no or low oil in the pump resevoir.
    
    Eric

    I had a friend of a friend help me.  The cellar has plenty of head
    room - I'm 6'3".  I think the whole job, including the furnace
    (140 btu hiel) and oil tank was about $3,600.  I also had all the
    duct work insulated so that I can add central air if I so desire.
    The fellow I had help me works for a heating company and can get
    all the material including the furnace at wholesale - I had some
    one else quote the job at over 5k.  For example, my furance cost
    only 700 - the same unit at sears was $1200.  He works weekend and
    nights and might be looking for work if you are interested in having
    someone do the work.  If you want, I'll give you his name etc off
    line.  I'd rather not put it here without asking him first.
    
    I have a supply and return in every room - two in the larger rooms.
    this includes the bathroom.          
    
    I'm very happy with the whole system - sure beats electric,
    but I'm not sure that it would be better than just replacing your
    furnace.   Are you just sold on FHA??? 
    
    Hope this helps!
    
    /Brian  

    
    I think .4 is on the right track.  The system sounds screwed up,
    but fixing it would probably be a lot more cost effective than
    replacing it.  I have been around several hot water systems, 
    and this is definitely not the norm.  If you don't own it, I 
    would talk to the landlord about having it fixed.  A qualified
    technician (sometimes not easy to find!) should be able to
    find the problem.
    
    -tm
    

    I agree with those who say check out your system a little more first. 
    All the hot water systems I have had have run OK even when running for
    a long time.  In fact, I now live in a house that has some insulation
    problems in a couple of places, and on a really cold windy night the
    circulator can run continuously.  Its seals are fine.  The only time I
    have ever had seals leak around a furnace was when the furnace got
    cold, like during a power failure.  Everything then cools off and
    shrinks and the seals can leak considerably.  When it gets hot again
    the problem goes away.
    
    Recommendation: verify the various temperature settings in the furnace
    and check the guage that shows temp and pressure.
    
    Typically there are 3 settings for a FHW furnace:  Low temperature
    boiler turn on, high temperature boiler turn off, and miniminum
    temperature circulator turn on.
    
    It sounds like you may have two separate problems:  The seals go, and
    it takes too long to heat up your house.  The second problem should not
    cause the first.
    
    It is almost always possible to speed heat-up time by one of two
    methods.  First, check the high and low limit temperature settings on
    your furnace.  A lot of furnace installers, repairmen, etc. will set
    these settings down "for you" in the summer when all you are using is
    hot water for showers, etc.  Settings that are too low will cause long
    slow heat-up cycles during the winter heat season.  I have always kept
    mine set at: Low turn-on - 190, Hi turn-off - 210 or thereabouts.  The
    dial goes up above 220, which is above the boiling point of water
    (212), but it does not boil because of the pressure.  Nevertheless I
    don't like the thought of raising it higher than 210 for myself.  The
    low and the high settings should be at least 20 degrees apart for a
    reasonable on-off cycle of the flame.
    
    The circulator pump temperature turn-on switch (if there is one)
    should be somewhere below the low turn-setting of the furnace.  When I
    bought my house the previous owner had it set higher than the low
    turn-on setting, so as the furnace cooled off the circulator would shut
    down, then the furnace would stop cooling down, and it took a loooong
    time for it to come on again.  It had to lose heat to the air in the
    basement before everything would cycle again.
    
    If you get domestic hot water out of your furnace also, there will be a
    thermostatically controlled mixer valve at the output of the furnace to
    control the hot water temperature.  It mixes some cold water with the
    hot so as to prevent dangerously hot water from going to sinks and
    showers, and to even out the up-down temperature cycling as the furnace
    turns on and off.
    
    If settings don't correct the problem, then adding more baseboard will. 
    A lot of new installations lately seem to have minimal baseboard
    installed (it's cheaper that way).
    
    One house I lived in would not bring the kitchen temp up to the
    thermostat temp the first winter in the house, even though the heating
    system was brand new and the house was well insulated.  That problem
    turned out to be the hi/low temp settings on the furnace (150 & 170)
    set up by the furnace installer when he installed the system.  I set
    them to 190 and 210 and the kitchen heated right up just fine.
    
    In another place we lived we did not have enough baseboard in one room,
    and adding another piece dramatically increased the heating capacity.
    
    On the other hand, hot air can be centrally air-conditioned, centrally
    humidified, centrally filtered and electrostatically cleaned, the house
    can be kept under positive pressure to slowly change tha air to keep it
    healthy and prevent radon infiltration, etc.  I would put in hot air it
    I were starting from scratch.

    I am building a house now, and my builder says FHA w/gas is a good
    alternative and will give me the option for central air. I have FHW
    w/oil now, and its okay, but the pipes do make noise. Does anyone have
    special opinions on FHA w/propane?
    
    					Thanks, Donna R.

    
    
      My house is FHA w/propane and w/central air. I would do it over
    again if I built another house. The only disavantage of propane
    I can see right now is the price which is about $.10 per gallon
    more than oil. The reason I went with propane was that gas wasn't
    availible on my street and I refuse to cook on an electric stove.
    <Real chefs only cook with gas IMHO!!!> I prefer FHA over FHW but
    again that's my opinion and I heard all the arguments for both.
    If you have specific questions feel free to send me mail.
    
    -mike
    
    

    In my last house, I too had propane for cooking - I too refuse to cook
    on an electric stove. We had FHW w/oil for heating, but we did not
    choose that, it was just done. Thanks for the input, if I have any
    questions - I'll send you mail...
    
    					DR 

    Thanks to all for your rxs.  It has given me a considerable amount
    to think about.
    
    						=maggie

    =maggie,

    I have lived with forced hot-air heat for the last 20 years!!
    I am planning on having all the ductwork professionally cleanned
    finally to see if it will cut down on *ALL* the dust that is 
    generated throughout my house!

    We have a multi-staged thermostat that is programable for the days
    you work and the days you are home with several changes in bringing
    the heat up and down in the morning and again at night.  

    We are thinking of installing baseboard hot water heating units in
    the near future unless the duct cleanning takes care of our dust
    problem efficiently at a low cost.  My neighbor just gave me the
    number of the Metrowest Cleanners for getting an estimate.  Has
    anyone had this done and how expensive is it so I won't pass out
    from the shock!

    justme....jacqui

    In one  house I lived in there was an electrostatic air cleaner on
    the  output  of  the  furnace  (forced hot air). We had remarkably
    little  dust in the house. In fact when we were doing a dusty job,
    we would turn on the fan and the air cleaner would reduce the dust
    level very quickly. I don't know what the air cleaner cost, but it
    was  certainly  impressive.  Maintenance  was simple, whenever the
    elements  got  dirty  just  hose  them  off  or  put  them  in the
    dishwasher. 

--David

    I just got off the phone with the BFC.  Their current price is 74
    cents a gallon COD and 78 cents credit.  My oil company just filled
    my tank for over 95 cents a gallon so I'm getting an application.
    
    Michael

  re:.2
       Where do you live? I haven't paid over $.77 for well over a year
    or more!
    I live in Leominster.
                                           Denny

I stayed in a house once with an electrostatic air cleaner right down the
hall from my bedroom -- it was like trying to sleep under a bug zapper!
I guess they are quieter when they are hidden in the attic or basement.

	Larry

    The bug  zapper  sound  tells  you  that  it's  time  to clean the
    elements. Whenever we started to hear zaps we'd clean it. It would
    stay quiet for quite a while afterwards.

--David

    I have a questions for you noters and I wasn't sure where exactly
    to place my note. It has to do with a gas leak at the apartment
    house i live in that occured this weekend so I figured i would place
    it here. If it is unappropraite here just let me know. My story
    goes like this:
    
     I live in an old three family house with three units of eqaul size
    that line up side by side(like townhouses). My wife and I live in
    one end unit with our three daughters ages 8,2 and 1. The other
    end unit has a family in it and the middle unit had just been rented
    to a young(19 year old) couple less than a month ago. Anyway to
    try and make a long story short here is what happend. This past
    friday night the middle apartment was getting to be its usaully
    noisy self. the guy who lived there always had his young friend
    over drinking etc... and they did get a bit loud. Any way at about
    midnite I hear a knock on my front door and its the guy next door
    yelling that there is a gas leak and to get out quickly. Well the
    wife and I flew upstairs and grabbbed the kids and we all got out
    safely as did all other tenants. know here is where I have the
    questions. both parents of the couple in the middle were at my door
    when the guy knocked on my door  indicating to me that they weere
    called first. I know that both of their parents live in hudson and
    we are in Marlboro so by the time they got the call and arrived
    to my apartment I figure at least  15-20 minutes had to elapse.
    Then the fire dept. was called. So I figure that from the time the
    gas leak fist occurred to the time I was notified and the fire dept.
    was called the gas had been leaking for about 20-30 minutes. Does
    everyone follow me? Now for the gas leak. In the young peoples quest
    for good times with alcohol a fight had ensued in the kitchen. One
    of the guys got shoved into the stove and the gas pipe broke at
    a point where the shut off valve couldn't stop the leak.. my question
    is this. Exactly how much danger were my family and I in??? I had
    just read in the paper about how the home in sherborn had blow up
    when a gas main had been broken on the outside. I know this is much
    smaller scale but I am still concerned as to how much danger we
    were in. People I have spoken with have said all it would have taken
    was a cigarette and the place would have gone up. Can anyone shed
    some light on this for me. I'd like to get some info so I can hopefully
    get the wife calmed down as she was and still is a bit upset. 
    for what it is worth the landlord evicted the tenants saturday morning
    for what he says was endangering the lives of his other tenants.
    
    What do you all think of this incident.... thanks for any replies.
    
    Does anyone know the node for the fire notes file??
    
    al

    You were at risk of life and limb. Evacuation is the *only* correct
    action to take. My father works for the local gas utility and has
    on occasion had to inspect former home sites after the home was
    destroyed by an explosion. One a few years ago leveled a 2 story
    home the blast threw clear a 13yr old girl clear she woke up in
    a neighbors tree 15' off the ground. Bits of the home were found
    as far as 2 blocks away. In proper air/gas ratios the mixture can
    easily equal several sticks of dynamite with static electricity
    being the only neccessary fuse. I would have gotten the hell out
    of there and have let the fire department handle clearing out the
    gas as they have breathing equipment and fans that are rated for
    use in a hazardous atmosphere(i.e. spark proof).
    FWIW- The city of Colorado Springs recently issued a bulletin regarding
    a type of flexible pipe used to connect stoves,ect to the source
    and their tendancy to break at the fittings.
                                                    
    I think you used good judgement, Jerry
    

While house-shopping, I was looking at a house in Fitchburg, and there was a
fairly nondescript house across the street.  I went back to look at the same
house, but this time, I noticed that across the street was not a house, but
half a chimney, a few charred beams, and a rubble-filled basement.  I found out
later there was a gas leak, and BOOM!!  I don't believe anyone was injured, but
I don't know for sure.  I was told the cat survived somehow, but wasn't found
for two weeks, and was still in a daze.

Propane is more dangerous than natural gas when there is a leak, since propane
is heavier than air and will settle in the basement and stay there, while
natural gas, which is lighter than air, will tend to rise and dissipate.

-Mike

    This also brings up the importance of knowing where the main gas
    shutoff is. Most people know where the main breaker and water shutoff
    is, but I wonder how many could find the gas shutoff.
    
    Eric

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe one step to take prior to
    evacuation is to open windows, to let the gas out.  It may not reduce
    the risk of igniting the gas (it might even increase it), but it
    will reduce the risk of the gas concentrating to explosive levels.
    As pointed out earlier, this won't work with propane.
    
    Personally, I'd be asking the police whether this incident constitutes
    grounds for charges of reckless endangerment (a crime in some
    jurisdictions).
    
       Gary

    With regards to the last note,
    As the train is barreling down on you, do you stay on the track
    long enough to read the number on the engine?
    EVACUATE. LEAVE. OPENING A WINDOW COULD CAUSE THE BIG BOOM.
    Best to get the heck out while still alive.

    
    I saw a house about 45 minutes after a gas explosion.
    It was literally a pile of slivers of wood.
    (no sign of fire...wierd)
    This leads me to a question:
    
    I've seen gas detecters, which look/act like fire detectors except
    for gas, at the local plumbing shop. These seem good for piece of
    mind for knowing you are 5 minutes from an explosion. 
    
    Is there some type of valve that can detect sudden surges of gas
    flow (like from a break in the line) and shut off the line?  
    
    After seeing the house that blew up, Im nervous.
    My house has gas lines over 50 years old. The gas man
    looked at them when they installed a new water heater and said
    they "looked" fine, but having some automated protection would
    be real nice. The gas man said he'd never heard of the type of
    valve Im describing.
    
    Pete
    
    
    

    Here in Atlanta, the Gas company is updating the old lines with pipe
    inserts.  We have iron pipes but they are sticking a continuous, bright
    safety orange, plastic pipe inside the iron pipe.  This has a snazzy
    connector at each end. The plastic pipe is one piece and flexible so
    less chance of leaks and breaks.  The gas company is only responsible
    for the line up to the meter at the house.  Once the pipe leaves the
    meter to come into the house, it is the homeowners responsibility. 
    I watched while they updated the line from the street to my meter.
  
    This is reducing the number of leaks and potential leaks in the
    system but not directly in the home.  You might check with your
    gas company, they may be able to give you a list of contractors
    who can put this "pipe insert" in your home.  
    

    RE .6
    
    I have seen a safety shutoff for propane systems.  It reacts to
    a surge, and cuts off the flow.  I think it was called something like
    a gas fuse.  I can't remember where I saw it though.
    
    Ken

    Re .6
    
    Gas detectors are available at most large hardware and plumbing stores.
    The ones I have seen carried the First Alert brand name.  Around $30.
    
    pbm
    

    .53 in Western Mass.
    
    
    
    Jim

    I had a safety valve on the gas line in my condo. I found out because
    it malfunctioned and partially shut off my gas. I was informed that
    it was designed to turn off the gas in the event of a fire. Don't
    think that this is what you are looking for though.
    
    
    
    					Mark
    

    Okay, I'm zeroing in on a house.  Unfortunately it has steam heat so I
    would certainly want to swap that out at least for FHW but preferably
    for FHA since as I said in my basenote I'd like to be able to get a
    sharp rise in temperature early in the morning and then in the evening,
    and HA is better for that than HW.  Plus there's the issue of a/c.
     
    Anyway, it's a two-story house (LR, DR, K down; 3BR + Bath up) which
    means that the ductwork would have to be brought up inside the walls,
    which in turn sounds as though it might be a bloody expensive
    proposition.  Anyone have any experience of what that might cost?
    
    						=maggie 

    
    .13> Okay, I'm zeroing in on a house.  Unfortunately it has steam heat so I
    .13> would certainly want to swap that out at least for FHW but preferably
    .13> for FHA since as I said in my basenote I'd like to be able to get a
    .13> sharp rise in temperature early in the morning and then in the evening,
    .13> and HA is better for that than HW.  Plus there's the issue of a/c.
    
    I don't understand the complaint about steam heat.  If the system
    is in good condition, it's a wonderfully efficient method.  And
    the radiators heat up the house faster than hot water.  You might
    want to have the system evaluated by someone familiar with steam
    heat.  If the pipes are not clogged with rust, the pipes are tilted 
    properly, there is no significant banging when the heat goes on, and
    there are not too many leaking steam valves, then the system could
    be fine.  Steam heat is wonderful if the system is in good shape.
    Problem is that some of them have not been installed or maintained
    properly.
    
    -tm

  Re: .13 (=maggie)

  I don't think I'd replace a heating system unless it really needed
  replacing.  And you can always get room-sized air conditioners.

  But to each her/his own.  If it's your dream house and you must have FHA
  heat, you probably wouldn't run individual ducts through the walls to
  each upstairs room.  Instead, you'd run one large duct up to the attic
  and branch off to individual rooms from there (at least that's the  way
  they did it on a recent 'This Old House' episode).  You'd probably
  have to insulate the attic ductwork heavily.  

  Sorry, no idea what it would cost.  It's probably a slow time for
  heating contractors, though.  With a few phone callse, you could
  probably find one who was willing to discuss the matter...

  JP

    A lot of modern, new houses (like the one I HAD in Atlanta) had
    two complete, separate systems.  One in the basement for the first
    floor and one in the attic for the second floor.
    
    It was VERY energy efficient - since you controlled heat (and cool
    with central air) where and when you needed it, one of the fe{ ways
    to do that with FHA.
    
    I am considering switching over to the two furnace system here in
    NJ, instead of the single furnace (old an...). 
    
    Installation should not be too bad, since you have access to the
    basement and the attic.
    
   {	-BARRY-
    

    A few questions on converting from oil to gas.  I have a Oil fired FHW 
  heating system, and get hot water from a tankless unit on the boiler.  I'm 
  considering converting for 2 reasons:  I may have to pay $600.00 to replace
  a leaky oil tank,and,We're getting hooked onto town water, and I'm afraid that
  the hot water will suffer, due to the increased water pressure, i.e., the
  water will flow through the coils faster, using the heat quicker than can
  the burner can supply it.  I'd like to go to a gas fired hot water heater,
  which are inexpensive to run and to buy.

   But,
   o How efficient are the gas conversion units they attach to your oil boiler?
     The gas co claims 80%.  They'll charge me 10 bucks a month rental.  Anybody
     have one of these?
 
   o The gas co will do all the hookups (free), so I think they should know what
     they're doing.  This is Commonwealth Gas.  Any comments about this?

   o  Will the heating system be able to push out the BTUs as quickly as an
      oil fired system?  Will the house take longer to heat up when cold,
      or after the heat was turned down?

   o  Any other gotchas with such a scenario?

   o  What is the current cost per BTU for gas vs oil?  I think they've been
      pretty close for a while....

  Thanks

   Steve
    

    
    Steve,
    
    I converted to Gas, Comm Gas, about 3 years ago, and I never regret
    it.
    
    I also had a tankless water heater, but I switched to a Hot water
    heater. The tankless worked great, but I wanted water hotter.
    
    I never notice a difference between the gas or oil except it's much
    cleaner, and always there..
    
    And rent both the burner and the heater..  It's still cheaper then
    oil.
    
    Cal.
    

    
    Re: .2
    
    What's all this about getting rid of the Tankless when you get higher
    water pressure?  Can't you just get a water-saver shower head, or
    a flow-restrictor for the shower-head?
    
    --tm
    

    
    A Watts pressure reducing valve is about $30 at Spags.
    
    CdH
    

    MIght as well put this queston here...on page 65 of the sep/oct
    '89 issue of the Old-House Journal is a advertisement for Hydro-Sil.
     This is a heating unit that uses a "harmless silicone fluid" in
    a sealed copper tube (closed system) with a "hydroelectric element"
    running through it to heat the liquid when the attached thermostat
    turns on the electricity.  It comes on various lengths and in both
    220 and 110 volt power attachments.  
    
    Has anyone had any experience with these units?  I have a sunroom
    that will need to be heated this winter (at least at night) and
    am looking into various alternatives.  This looks like the cheapest
    at the moment.
    
    Mike

     Is there anybody out there that has a high-tech heating system
    installed and has had it long enough to comment on it's ability
    to do the job ? I'm in the process of converting from electric
    heat to FHW by oil and many of the contractors (Nashua area)
    don't want to touch high-tech furnaces/boilers until they've
    been around for ten or so years to prove their worth. I'd like
    to get a boiler that can be vented through a wall, rather than
    add to the expense of the conversion by having to get a chimney.
    
     Thanks for all/any comments--Jeff
    

    The trade name for that type of heater is hydronic. They are quite abit
    more effecient than the regular element type heaters partly due to the
    oil heating up then continuing to radiate heat for some time after the
    element has been shut down by the thermostat. Berko is one brandname
    that has brochures explaining the advantages over other types of
    electric heaters.
    
    -j

>     Thanks for all/any comments--Jeff
   

Most boilers and furnaces can be vented through a wall. You just need a double
wall stainless venting hood. No big deal, inexpensive, and meets code.

Ross

    RE: .30 :Ross
    
>Most boilers and furnaces can be vented through a wall.
    
    Without a chimney ?
    
>You just need a double wall stainless venting hood.
    
    Is this something new ? Is there a blower inside of it ?
                 
    --Jeff

    Re .29
    
    What do you mean by "high-tech" ?
    
    pbm
    whose 17-year old boiler snickered as he walked past it last weekend
    

    RE: .30 & .32
    
     Maybe you can direct me to the air-shredder note !
    
     --Jeff_with_foot_in_mouth

    I was interested in a high-tech boiler, and every heating contractor
    I spoke to discouraged it.  The telling argument was the lack of
    availability of parts and expertise when your boiler breaks down
    on Xmas eve.  Also, the payback period (price difference/savings per year)
    was long.  We went with a (very) standard Burnham boiler.

>... They are quite a bit more effecient than the regular element type
>heaters partly due to the oil heating up then continuing to radiate heat
>for some time after the element has been shut down by the thermostat. 

     If you put 1500 watts in, you will get exactly 1500 watts out, 
regardless of how it works.  All electric heaters have the same 
efficiency - 100%.

     The advantages of one type of electric heat over another have to do 
with how evenly warm they are, how constant or variable the heat flow is,
and how difficult it is to start fires with them.

    fyi 
    
    Yesterday,(and the day before, and the day before) I had a new Peerless
    boiler & Beckett burner installed  for our oil fired hot water heating
    system. 
    
    cost: $2880.34

    I just finished my DIY summer job of installing an oil FHA system
    and taking out the electric baseboard. We had the Fuel oil guy in
    to check over the system. He says that I need BNX on the 110v wire
    that is inside the cabinet (for lack of better word) that runs to the
    burner. Is this right? Can anybody check the code for me?
    
    Ben

	the code for burners is about the same as the standard electric code.
Although, you may get asked for more stringent requirements by the local
inspector. The code says that you must have metal covered wires. You can
use standard plastic romex. I don't know if you could use the metel pipe or
that you must use the flexable pipe.

	I had the same problem last year, my self and
I was required to use solid pipe on the outside of the system. I used
flexable pipe on the inside. It was easier to route in to.

	The outside pipe is required till the fire cutoff switch
located above the furnace.

	You are also required to have an emergency power off switch located
at least a door away from the burner. Most houses locate this on the
wall next to the basement door.

Bill

    Thanks. Well, I didn't get the reply till today and the inspection was
    yesterday. He looked pretty closely, but didn't mention the wire... (?)
    
    re: switch
    
    Yah, I have one of those, and a thermo-cutout over the furnace and a 
    smoke dectector, and cemented the oil pipe into the corner of the
    foundation. I had a check-off list I got from the Fire Dept. before
    I began and it listed everything I needed to do except the BNX 
    question.
    
    So if anyone is wondering, "Can I install a FHA furnace myself?" You
    probaly can! I did!

    
    I looked in all the heat related topics, and I could not find one
    where I can put this question, So here it is
    
    I have FHA by oil heating system and I have a humidifier build in to
    the system, But I normally do not trun it on, because the fan noice
    from the humidifier drive me crasy at night, So I just leave it off.
    
    My question is By having the humidifier on, Do I save on heating?
    What would be the approximate saving and why? 
    
    

    This isn't quite an answer but, the home inspector who went through my
    house with me before I bought it  pointed out the humidifier that was
    attached to the FHA furnace.  He explained that it would be best if we
    didn't use that humidifer because it could cause moisture and rust in
    the furnace.  He said that if we found the air in the house to be too
    dry it would be better to run a separate humidifier upstairs in the
    living area.
    
    Before DEC I worked in Boston in a concrete & glass tower.  It was a
    very cold building to begin with...during one severe winter HVAC found
    they could make the offices feel warmer by increasing the level of
    humidity (also made lots of condensation on the windows.) 
                     

    Moist air feels warmer than dry air.  Dry air will tend to draw the
    moisture out of your body and contribute to dry skin.  A humidifier
    will increase the moisture in the air and make the temperature feel
    warmer. 
    
    The savings come in to play when you have the moister air, you feel
    warmer, so you turn the thermostat down so it "feels" like the same
    temerature but you are actually using the furnace less.
    
    The discussion about humidifiers causing rust out is discussed in
    other notes.  They discuss putting the humidifer before and after the
    furnance and they results of each.  Check 1111.49 for a listing of FHA
    topics of which humifiers is one.  1077 and 1865 are two which deal
    with humifiers.

Also check out notes 467 and 533, found using AIR_QUALITY_CONTROL

Paul

    But, I still do not understand the saving of $$,
    
    When I turn the thermostat down, let say about 5 degrees, and turn on
    my central humidifier, Not knowing much about the electricity, 
    
      Do You mean, The amount of energy spend on hudifier to raise the
     humidity in the house is less than the amount of energy used to
     raise temperature 5 degrees??? 
    

    Don't get humidifying and *de-humidifying* mixed up. 
    
    Humidifying is as easy as blowing air across something wet. Like a 
    pad.
    
    Dehumidifying requires making something cold, and that gets condensation
    to form, thereby removing the water from the air. It's the getting
    something cold that is expensive. (like trying to refrigerate your house)
    
    I think the humidity is a mixed blessing. It may make you feel warmer,
    but the frost on the windows will add to maintenance costs. 

    .15 
       I am not confuse about humidifying and de-hudmidifying,
    
    I just had a question humidity and temp.....
    
    
    Oh well....
    

From a mechanical engineering viewpoint, I'd say you need to calculate
it out to see which is cheaper.  The reason for this is (if I remember
my thermodynamics) that it takes more heat input to raise the temperature
of moist air than dry air.  I think you'd have to calculate the
energy savings from dropping the air temperature and the extra cost
of heating air that is say, 50% RH instead of 30%.

Gary

Anyone know anything about a Yukon EX-95 furnace?  This is one of those
"high tech" oil furnaces, which is 91% efficient and vents through the wall
through a 2" PVC pipe.  I believe it has something like 3 heat exchangers.

How good a unit is this?
How much does it cost?
Is it worth the added cost over a "normal" furnace?

-Mike

    Seems like a good place for this..
    
    
    I'm adding a 2nd story to my house, I currently have FHW heat and
    a seperate central A/C for the 1st floor, the heating/cooling system
    for the 2nd floor is FHA heating the air by a hot water coil in
    the FHA system in the attic, the question is, my current gas furnace
    is too small to handle both floors, so I have a choice, I can either
    upgrade my furnace from 77,000 btu to a 125,000 btu or I can add
    another 77,000 or so btu furnace and use the 2nd one for just the
    2nd floor. adding the 2nd furnace will save me about $600-$700
    most of that due to installation, but according to both the plumber
    and the heating contractor will use more gas, thus cost more to
    run, right now I leaning towards just upgrading the old furnace
    which is 10yrs old and will only have to worry about one furnace
    possibly having problems instead of two.
    
    Does anyone have any thoughts on this, I have to make some
    decision in a couple of days. I was also planning on calling
    the gas co. in Nashua to ask their opinion...
    
    
    
    Royce

    2 furnaces, that's intriguing.  If I were going to do that I would
    investigate allowing one to serve the needs of the entire house
    whenever the excess capacity from the second is not needed.  As for
    perhaps the first 6 weeks of the heating season and the last 6.  I
    don't know anything about the codes in this matter but that sounds like
    it could save money over using 2 at partial output.
    
    One would have a slower response, as when you return from a long
    weekend and turn on the heat, but I'd still investigate it.
    
    ed

    Two heating plants is becoming a common building techinque here in
    Atlanta for houses with 2000+ sq ft.  The idea is that with two
    thermostats controlling different portions of the house, the less used
    areas of the house can be kept cooler thereby saving money.  My dad's
    house is about 2500 sq. ft. single story built in the past 3 years and
    he claims that the utility bills are very reasonable.  He attributes this
    to having dual set-back thermostats, which run his dual heating plants.

    I talked to the Gas Co. yesturday and they said that using two furnaces
    will use quite a bit more gas than using one large on, I'm going
    with the one.
    
    
    Thanks for the replies
    
    
    Royce

I have a new, large sq ft. (3000+) home. The heating system consists of 2 
FHA oil fired furnaces, one for the downstairs, one for the upstairs (bedrooms).

Because we have a wood stove in the cathedral ceiling family room, the upstairs
furnace very rarely (2-3 times/year) comes on. If we keep the bedroom doors
closed, the rooms stay cool the way we like them. And our heating costs 
stay fairly low.

I'm sure it would be different if we weren't running the stove but our costs
for the past two years for heat (not including water) have been < $600.00

								Mark

I'm thinking of getting a high-efficiency oil-burning heating system.
This is for a two zone, pumped hot water to baseboard radiators system.
Systems that condense the liquid out of the exhaust seem to have
the highest efficiency ratings.  Do any of you have such a system?

Do they last as long as more conventional systems?  Are the guarantees
as good?

Comments about good brands would be appreciated.
How long have you had it?  Do you actually get the advertised efficiency?
Has it ever broken?  How much normal maintenance is needed.

I read in Consumer Reports that some brands burn out early from
even minute quantities of clorine in fuel or air. This might be caused
by using a clorine bleach in a washing machine on a different floor.
Can anyone confirm or deny?

I've also heard they are louder than ordinary systems.  Is the sound
noticable, bothersome, or what, and how far are you from it?
It would be installed in the basement under the family room.

Have you had any problems because of the acidity of the condensate?

The system to be replaced includes a tankless water heater.
What arrangement for hot water is best with the high efficiency boiler?
(It is too shady for solar.)  I'm inclined to go with the well insulated
holding tank, heated by an extra zone from the boiler.  Two good brands
were mentioned in this conference.

Any other benefits or gotchas?  Finally, if you are happy and near
Acton Mass, I'd appreciate knowing who did the installation, or
supplied the major components.

Thanks in advance.

I thought this would be a duplicate, but there are currently no notes 
specifically about "High Efficiency" oil burners.  There are at least a dozen
about oil burners, though.  I don't know diddly about oil burners (having a
solar house), so I don't know if "High Efficiency" is a common burner type that
is already discussed in another note, and I'm not about to go back and read 
them all to find out.  If one of you furnace gurus think there is such a note,
which might deserve to be renamed to mention High Efficiency, then send me mail
and I'll think about closing this note and renaming the old one.  I do think it
seems appropriate to have a note that specifically mentions "High Efficiency"
to concentrate discussions about that type of burner.

If you can, please confine discussions of hot water heaters to reasons why one
or another might be specifically better with a high efficiency system.  There
are plenty of other notes about tankless hot water systems for more general 
discussions.

Paul
[Moderator]

    What distinguishes a "high efficiency" system from a conventional one?
    
    pbm
    

These furnaces try to extract every bit of heat possible from the fuel, often
using multiple heat exchangers and condensing the water vapor in the exhaust
to liquid water.  The exhaust of many of them is so cool they can be vented
outside using plastic sewer pipe, instead of needing a chimney.

-Mike

    I have a Weil-McLean VHE gas fired boiler.  They also make an oil fired
    version.  W-M have been in business a long time, and are fairly well
    respected.  Some of the features are;
    
    a heat exchanger (or separate boiler chamber, I suppose) on top of the
    main boiler.  The return water is preheated, and the flue
    gasses condense from this part.
    
    a blower (this is on a gas unit) because the flue gasses are too cold
    to create their own draft.
    
    a damper setup to hold heat in the boiler when off, and to prevent
    cold air syphoning back down the flue.
    
    electronic ignition.
    
    3" s/s flue pipe out the sill plate (looks like a dryer vent).
    
    
    Because I have natural gas, I have a fairly conventional direct vent
    domestic hot water heater, as this was lots less expensive than setting
    up a tank on a separate zone.
    
    I spend 800 - 1000 bucks a year for heat and hot water in a two story
    3000 sq ft. house.  (about 20 windows 3'x5', two pic windows 6'x6', two
    terrace doors 9', in other words tons of windows.)  I have three kids
    who like 15 minute showers.  If I had installed a conventional unit, I
    estimate it would cost close to double that.
    
    I don't store paint, thinner, gasoline, nor do I paint in the cellar.  
    The laundry is on the second floor.  I've had the unit for about 3
    years now with no problems so far.  The gas fired model that I have
    makes as much noise as a conventional oil fired unit.  I don't believe
    an oil unit would be any noisier.  There are some forced hot AIR
    furnaces that use pulse combustion that are noisier than usual, but I
    don't believe there are any boilers that use pulse combustion.  
    
    One of the benefits of high efficiency boilers is that they're fast,
    almost as fast as electric heat, because the boilers hold very little
    water, about a gallon or so.
    
    By the way, when the boiler is running full tilt, you can't put your
    hand on the hot water outlet (180 degrees) but you CAN put your hand on
    the s/s flue pipe where it comes out of the unit!!
    
    
    
    I don't regret having bought it.
    
    Carl

    Oh, yeah, Eugene Douglas Plumbing and Heating did mine, he's a super
    plumber.  In Pepperell, Ma.

    Yes, I saw that one too - looked like a great possibility for reducing
    our dependency on home heating oil! Also heard the 23 cents per hour
    figure. Was that a CNN (Cable News Network) item? If so, they'd
    probably be able to give you the information.
    
    BTU considerations etc would be important - also I'd wonder if you
    could get any more heat out of the beast than 23 cents worth of
    electricity could generate from some standard 'resistance' type unit
    like a toaster. Seems like there must be some type of thermodynamic law
    that would limit that.
    
    I remember a few years back, there was something being sold in Nashua,
    New Hampshire I think consisting of a revolving drum inside a drum
    claimed to generate more heat than the energy put into it - got a lot
    of 'press' for a little while and then faded away along with perpetual
    motion machines, etc.
    
    If you get any details, please post them here - should be interesting.
    

$.23 an hour is $5.52 a day is about $165 a month, which doesn't sound like all
that great of a deal to me.

It's amazing how cheap something can sound if you break it down into small 
pieces.  Only 1/3 of a penny a minute!

Paul

    
>   BTU considerations etc would be important - also I'd wonder if you
>   could get any more heat out of the beast than 23 cents worth of
>   electricity could generate from some standard 'resistance' type unit
>   like a toaster. Seems like there must be some type of thermodynamic law
>   that would limit that.
 
        A basic law of physics limits the amount of heat.
    'Energy can be neither created not destroyed, only changed in
    form'  Resistance heating is nearly 100% efficient conversion
    of electrical energy to heat at the heating device.  It is
    all of the inefficiencies in creating the electrical energy
    that makes expensive.  Fossil fuel or nuclear to heat, to
    steam, to mechanical, to electical, and finally after
    transmission losses to the heater.


    Peter Duke

    re: .2
    
>$.23 an hour is $5.52 a day is about $165 a month, which doesn't sound like all
>that great of a deal to me.
    
    Is your current heating unit "ON" 24 hours a day?   I think this is
    an unrealistic comparison unless you keep your temperature above 85�F!
    
    -Bob

No, my heaters are not on 24 hours a day.  But I'll bet nearly anything that
the $.23 an hour figure is an average, not a peak value.

Think of it - they're trying to convince you that it is cheap.  Since you are
right - heating is only on a small percentage of the time, which figure do you
think they'd use?  If the heating is on 25% of the time, would they say $.23
an hour (peak) when they COULD say $.06 an hour (average) and still be not 
lying?

Or think of it another way.  Figuring an average cost of ten cents a KWh, $.23
an hour is only 2300 watts.  Since your average hand-held hair dryer puts out
1200 watts, don't you think the furnace is a bit more than twice the power of
a hair dryer?

Paul

Since, as the base note points out, the capacity is unknown, it doesn't
matter how you figure the cost per hour -- is it for a doll house or a
200-room mansion?

    re: .5

    Paul,

    Yes, it would be logical to think that the furnace would be a bit more
    than twice the power of a hand-held hair dryer, but we are talking
    about a new (and at lease to me) unknown technology.  Maybe they've
    figured out a way to change the laws of nature and extract more BTUs
    per watt.  Just think of it.  A 500% efficient heating system.  You'll
    be selling electricity BACK to the electric company. :-)

    Instead of wild and foolish speculation (like mine) perhaps some more
    facts are in order.  I'm sure your $165 a month figure would be heaven
    to someone paying $300-600 a month now for heat in the winter (and can
    look forward to PSNH's constant rate increases to pay for Seabrook).
                                                               
    But 2300 watts DOES seem awfully low.

    -Bob

    Sorry Bob, but the world doesn't work that way, there are only so many
    BTUs per watt, and nothing anyone can do will change that. 
    Thermodynamically you would end up with 'perpetual motion' if you could
    get more, and I hope you realize that's impossible.
    
    Willie

Just to be a pain ;-)

When I took thermodynamics, the professor asked what was the highest
efficiency a heating system could have, and we naturally answered "100%".
The professor pointed out that efficiency was a relative measure; a
resistive heater is 100% efficient (all the energy consumed by the device is
converted to heat), but a heat pump system can easily be 1000% efficient
(the energy consumed by the device results in ten times the heat).  No
thermodynamic laws are broken, because the heat pump didn't create heat, it
just "moved" it.  However, it is ten times more efficient than the resistive
heater in terms of how much electrical energy you have to put in to get a
certain amount of heat out.

Maxwell's demon is infinitely efficient (Maxwell's demon allowed only hot
molecules to pass a point; cold molecules were blocked.) ;-)

    Re: .9
    
    True, but Maxwell's Demon doesn't exist, or at least nobody has
    managed to build one yet.
    
    			Steve

re .10:

>    True, but Maxwell's Demon doesn't exist, or at least nobody has
>    managed to build one yet.

No it doesn't, but there is something called the Vortex something that does
something close.  Compressed air is pumped into the thing, and it sends cold
air out one end and hot air out the other.  It actually separates low energy
(cold) molecules from high energy and sends them in different directions.

-Mike

    re: .8

>   Sorry Bob, but the world doesn't work that way, there are only so many
>   BTUs per watt, and nothing anyone can do will change that. 

    Well, I agree and disagree.  Man used to think that the Sun revolved
    around the Earth at one time too. That's the way the world 'worked'
    then.  I agree that as we known things NOW, that there are only so many
    BTUs per watt, but that doesn't mean that someday this law may be
    proved wrong.  I know I've read of some other "laws" of nature that are
    being challenged today, but for the life of me I can't remember what.

    You seem to have missed the tone of the note anyway as it was meant
    facetiously.

    -Bob

    Or you can move BTU's from the earth to your house, this is what my
    ground water heat pump does. The end result is 3 BTU's of heat for each
    BTU of electricity used, 300% efficent!
    Sandy
    

Wellllllllll......


It's only 300% efficient in terms of the electricity you're using. 
That's kind of like saying that a gas furnace with electric ignition is
thousands of percent efficient because of all the BTU's that come
pouring out for only pennies of electicity used on the igniter.

Of course, you can see why that's false, since you pay for the gas.  It
"seems" less false with a heat pump, since you usually don't pay for
the water you're stealing the heat from.  But from an efficiency
standpoint, the robbery can't be ignored.
					>>>==>PStJTT

    re: .8
    
    The problem is that Watts of electric power and BTUs of heat aren't
    something that we've discovered, they are just engineering units, and
    the relationship between them is defined somewhere.  In fact, if you
    follow them both back, you will find Joules or Ergs or something. 
    Actually, there are units of time in there too, but that's not
    important.
    
    It's like saying that if we moved en mass to the metric system that
    since kilometers are shorter than miles, we can go further for a gallon
    of gas, and all get better mileage!
    
    It all comes back to the law of conservation of energy: Energy cannot
    be created or destroyed.  This means that one joule of electrical
    energy _cannot_ be converted to more than one joule of heat energy
    (where would the extra energy come from?).  Since electrical resistance
    heaters are (neglecting energy which escapes due to electromagnetic
    radiation, which can be made insignificant) 100% efficient, it doesn't
    matter if you use a toaster, a hairdryer, or an electrical baseboard
    heater (or some fancy oil-filled electrical heater or an electrical
    'turbine' heater or a clothes dryer) one joule of electrical energy
    still gets converted to one (and only one) joule of heat energy.
    
    It doesn't sound illogical to try to get [I'll make up a number,
    because I don't have any references handy] 284.3 BTUs/hour from a
    'turbine electrical heater' when a $25 electrical heater only gets 150
    BTUs per hour for the same 1000 Watts of electricity.  But what if you
    do the conversions and find out they are saying:
    
    	"While cheap electrical resistance heaters only get one joule
    	of heat from every joule of electric power, our 'turbine electrical
    	heater' gets 2.3 joules of heat from every electrical joule!"
    
    Willie
                                                              

    re .14
    We are only stealing the heat from the water, and I am counting the
    electricity used the pump it out of the ground. The water is returned
    to the earth ten degrees colder and 100 feet from where we brought it
    up. I am not creating BTU's or joules, just moving them from the earths
    temperature to my house, via ground water. The same water supply is
    used for drinking etc. the heat pump uses 4 gallon per minute while
    running. My house is also super insulated, so the heat pump is only
    28,000 BTU's.
    Sandy
    

   <<< Note 4013.11 by RAMBLR::MORONEY "Shhh... Mad Scientist at work..." >>>

re .10:

>    True, but Maxwell's Demon doesn't exist, or at least nobody has
>    managed to build one yet.

No it doesn't, but there is something called the Vortex something that does
something close.  Compressed air is pumped into the thing, and it sends cold
air out one end and hot air out the other.  It actually separates low energy
(cold) molecules from high energy and sends them in different directions.

-Mike

>it's called a "Vortex Tube", and was developed in the 1970's I recall. I
>recall NASA used it in some space applications.
>
>/Joe

>    It all comes back to the law of conservation of energy: Energy cannot
>    be created or destroyed.
      
      This  is  false  and has been known to be false for more than four
      four decades.  It is possible and practical to  create  energy  by
      destroying  matter  --  as  is  done  as  Seabrook.   It  is  also
      theoretically possible to destroy energy by creating matter, but I
      know  of  no practical implementations.  
      
      This is what E=mc� is all about.  

Well, if you want to get really picky...

Matter and energy are really the same thing, they just seem different to us.
So Seabrook isn't creating anything, it's turning the "matter" form of the 
stuff the universe is made of into the "energy" form.  There is no way that
we know of to create more of this "stuff".

Actually, entropy states that not only can't you create any of this stuff, but
every time you do anything you actually destroy a little bit of it.

Paul 

re .19:

>Actually, entropy states that not only can't you create any of this stuff, but
>every time you do anything you actually destroy a little bit of it.

Actually entropy states that everytime you do something some energy gets
converted to a form that you can't convert back.

E=mc�, while true, doesn't factor at all in the efficiency of any home heating
system (unless you have a Mr. Fusion or something...)

-Mike

    
    RE a couple of replies back:
    
    	Sounds like you are happy with the ground water heat-pump, any
    chance you might be able to forward any info to concerning the one
    you have or point me in the direction of some good reading you have
    run into? I have sorta been interested in them for some time but
    never spoke with anyone who had one. 
    
    	Send me mail rather than continue on line, I'd like to hear
    your comments.
    
    Paul L.
    
    
    

    There is some information in this conference under the keyword
    HEATING-OTHER.  You might want to check note 1111 for a listing by
    keyword to find the specific notes.

Re: .16

No, it is not really 300% efficient.  It is not 100% efficient.  But it
does cost you less to run than if you were paying for all the energy
you're using. But efficiency isn't a financial unit, it's a ratio of
input .vs. output. To come up with the efficiency of a heat pump, you
have to consider the input of energy from the electric wires AND the
input of energy from the ground water.

A heat pump is cost-effective.  It's not necessarily efficient.

As a side note -- I wonder how long it will be before heat pumps com
eunder fire (so to speak.)  Dumping cold water into a warm water
environment, no doubt wreaking havoc with the micro-climate where they
operate.  And if enough people get heat pumps we'll have global warming
of the air mixed with geo-cooling of the earth.  Yup, ten years --
twenty at the outside -- and heat pumpers will be up to thier eyeballs
in Greenpeace (Greenwar?) activists.

                                           >>>==>PStJTT

Re: .23

That reminds me of a recent letter I read somewhere where the author, in
apparent seriousness, asked why we couldn't just use a bunch of air conditioners
to combat global warming.....


					Steve

>As a side note -- I wonder how long it will be before heat pumps com
>eunder fire (so to speak.)  Dumping cold water into a warm water
>environment, no doubt wreaking havoc with the micro-climate where they
>operate.  And if enough people get heat pumps we'll have global warming
>of the air mixed with geo-cooling of the earth.  Yup, ten years --
>twenty at the outside -- and heat pumpers will be up to thier eyeballs
>Greenpeace (Greenwar?) activists.
      
      
      Whether  you're  pumping  heat  from  the air or from ground water
      you're not effecting the overall heat  content  or  planet  Earth,
      just  moving  things around a bit.  Even in terms of micro-climate
      the Earth is a pretty heavy-duty heat sink. You need something the
      size of at least a small city all heated/cooled with heat pumps to
      begin to get an effect on the climate.  
      
      It  is  engergy  use  that is the big unbalancer in the ecosystem.
      Heat pumps use ~50-75% LESS energy than fossil  fuel  or  electric
      resistance  heat.   Ergo  they  are much kinder and gentler to the
      ecosystem. 

    Back a few:
    Vortex tubes have been around since before the 70's; back in the late
    '60s, a friend of mine in engineering class was talking with the
    resident machinist about building one.  I expect they've been around
    a laboratory curiosities for a lot longer than that.
    
    Perhaps NASA was the first to put one to any kind of practical use.
    If anybody is interested, you can buy one from Reid Tool Supply in
    Muskegon, Michigan. They sell them for cooling work on machine tools.
    I quote from the catalog:
    
    	"Compressed air is passed through a spin chamber creating a vortex
    	within the unit.  Hot air is exhausted from one end while air
    	cooled 50 degrees lower is directed to the work piece or tool.
    	Allows cooling in operations and testing where the use of liquid
    	[cooling] is unfeasible or undesirable.  Effectively removes
    	heat and chips from the work.  Because expensive coolants are not
    	used, it is clean and won't obstruct vision during the operation.
    	...it can easily be used anywhere there is shop air (80 psi minimum
    	for best results)."
    
    	Kit is $160; includes base unit, flexible hose with threaded
    	adapeter, round and flair nozzle, 12' coil air supply line,
    	storage tube, and instructions.
    
    	Vortex tube only is $140.
    

Re: .25

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the line we heard about fission reactors too.
Harmless. Interact less with the environment.  And how could a tiny,
little reactor possibly affect the thermal profile of a great, big lake
(or river, or ocean depending on where you live)?  Years go by and we
have the current mess.

I'm not pushing for studies on the subject, but I'll bet that at some
point someone is going to check out the thermal profile of the earth
around the latest condo housing projects which have heat pumps in every
home and they'll find groundwater cooling is affecting some micro-beast
neither of us give a rodent's hindquarters about and there'll be a new
"issue" to rally around.  Just wait for it....

                                >>>==>PStJTT

Damned shame Professor Pons took a powder.  I was planning on going down to the
basement once a year and adding a quart of water to my cold fusion input tank
and staying toasty for another year.  (eat waste helium Sadam!)

Stan

    So it's been about 2 weeks and we've all shown whether or not we
    remember high school physics and the base note's been deleted anyway.
    
    What about the Electric Turbine Furnace?
    
    ed

    Hi D.I.Yers
    	I am looking for suggestions concerning energy savings.I own a
    four bedroom house in the R.I area,my concern is I have heat on all 
    3 utilities OIL GAS ELC. I am thinking of converting my oil heat to 
    gas,this will eliminate one.Then I will stuck with the other two.
    How much do you think this might cost to change the system? 
        Any idea will be appreciated.
    		Thank you all 
    
    	Frantz
    

    What "system"?  Do you have FHA, FHW, or what?  Hard to say
    without some details.  Swapping an oil burner to a gas burner
    on a FHA/FHW system isn't prohibitively expensive in some
    cases, but it others the whole plant needs to be replaced.
    
    More info, please.

    Your base note leaves too many questions un-answered for a productive
    discussion to be carried on here.  We would like to suggest that you
    review 1111.47  Heating-Combinations-Comparisons-Coversions.  
    
    Standard Write lock follows...
    
This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

This subject is already under discussion in this file, in the topics listed in
the title.  Please look at these notes; you may find that your question is
already answered, or you may find a note where your question is an appropriate
continuation of the discussion.  These were found using the keyword directory
(note 1111), and you may find other notes relating to this subject by examining
the directory yourself.  Nearly all the people likely to respond use NEXT
UNSEEN, so a response to an old note will get the same exposure as a new note. 

We do welcome new notes if they explore a specific aspect of a problem that may
be under general discussion.  And moderators do make mistakes. So if after
examining these notes, you wish to continue the discussion here, send mail.

Bruce [Moderator]

    I am thinking of converting radiant electric heating to gas FHA but
    my problem is that the family room downstairs is a finished room with
    radiant heat also and so the ducts can't be put in.
    
    The contaractor is recommending putting the furnace in the attic and
    run the ducts in the attic and cutouts in the ceiling for heating the 
    rooms upstairs and somehow get to the family room through a closet or 
    something like that.
    
    Now  (1) how safe is a furnace in the attic,
    	 (2) how easy is the regular maintanance on the furnace
    	 (3) how noisy is it to have a furnace in the attic
    
    I would appreciate the views and experiences of the valued readers of 
    this conference before I commit myself to doing this type of conversion.
    Any ideas would be very much appreciated.
    
    Regards,
    Bhushan
            

I have an all-electric home in the mountains of Colorado. I've had estimates
done for a conversion to natural gas. I know the direct benefits and cost
savings etc...

What I don't know about is what, if any, tax benefits there are to this now
a days.

Anyone have any info on this?

Marty

Oops, I forgot something. What can be done by me. I know that certain things
must be done by a licensed person.

What part of this can I do to try to save money. Is it worth it? Will
contractors turn down the job if I attemp cetains things myself ????

Marty

    re.0, .1 Nope. I would hazard to guess that your home is either in
    Black forest or was built in 1972 when the city of Colorado Springs
    woulden't allow any gas connects. If you wanted a new home in 1972
     electric was your *only* option.
    
    -j
    

There are plenty of notes about the process of conversion from electric heat -
see note 1111.47 which is a directory listing of all notes about combining and
converting heating systems.  You'll probably find some useful information, and
you can ask any further questions about the conversion in one of those notes.

Please restrict this note to a discussion of the tax implications of conversion.

Paul
[Moderator]

I don't think there are any tax implications, other than it could be
considered a "capital improvement" which would affect capital gains when
you sell the house.  Years ago, there were "energy tax credits" which
you could take advantage of if you made certain energy-saving improvements,
but that disappeared in the early '80s.

						Steve

When you improve your home, your property tax assessment may go up.  I've
never heard of this happening based on a heating system conversion, but
anything's possible when municipalities are scrounging for money.

re: .2

You have 2 strikes !!! 

It's in Woodland Park. Northwoods subdivision. House was built in 1984.

     Well this looks like the right note!  I need to put in a heating
    system, going oil, want it relatively cheap.  I'm also going to put a 
    HELP WANTED ad, in case someone in here does systems part time, cuz
    I havn't the foggiest idea how to do it.
    
     Goal - Heat one 2400 Sq foot house 
    
     1> which cheaper, FHW or FHA?
     2> Who, if any, inspects the system, fire chief, building inspector?
     3> need a permit?
     
     
    
    /Dean
    

Also,  what are the opinions on models and companies?  I have to replace my
4 year old Burnham furnace because the low-water shutoff didn't shut off the
furnace.  The thing literally melted.

I will be checking out Burnham, obviously.  But, what about others?  How is
Weil-McClain?  Are there other GOOD brands out there?  I need to get the
insurance guy estimates.  I want to get this done by the middle of October if
possible.

If anyone has suggestions on contractors, that would be helpful, also.  I live
in Chelmsford, Mass.

Ed..

Weil-McClain is considered one of the best makers of boilers and burners.

			steve

Try calling Marchand Oil in Chelmsford. Their estimate was the most
reasonable several years ago when I had my boiler replaced.

I know that FHW is not from a furnace, but I couln't find a not on "Boiler
Advise".  

I'm currently looking into putting in a central heating system in my fairly
new (been building for the past 7 years) house.  I want to go with FHW.  I
have a plumbing/heating company giving me an estimate right now and he is
recommending a Peerless Boiler.  The model is from their new "high efficiency
MCB series.  I was wondering if anyone was familiar with Peerless boilers
and particularly the MCB serie?  I am looking ata  gas-fired boiler. The
"rated seasonal efficien"y(AFUE) is 81.5%  Is this good?

_gary

The Kohler Company (Kohler, WI) is coming out with a Gas fired Cogeneration unit
for the home.  It has an electrical efficiency of 26% and an overall system
efficiency of 87%.  It generates 5kW and uses a 9hp engine whose efficiency is
fairly flat past 3.5kW.  Says it will produce electricy at 4�/kW-hr.  Waste heat
is stored in a hot-water tank.  The article goes on to say:

"In this way, recovered engine heat can be recirculated for use in heated pools,
spas, water tanks, and forced-air or hydronic heating systems. Kohler engineers
say their cogeneration system produces 45,800 BTU of recoverable engine heat
each hour.  They say that thermal output can heat a 2.000-sq-ft home."

This is from an article in Design News/9-9-91/pg. 107

The unit is slated for introduction in 1992.  They figure it will pay for itself
in four years.

    Re: .45
    
    Gary, a seasonal efficiency of 81.5% seems pretty good. Operational
    efficiency of modern boilers is about 84-86% if I remember
    correctly. But, in order to maintain those high numbers, the
    boiler requires good maintenance. Note, operational efficiency
    is when the boiler is operating and seasonal efficiency takes
    account of the total performance, running and not running.
    
    Several years ago, there was a study made on boiler efficiency by
    the Brookhaven National Institute. That study explained how
    efficiency was measured for a layperson to understand. They
    also conducted measurements on various boilers and ranked
    them according to their performance. I had a copy of their
    report but it was lost long ago. You might try calling them to 
    get a copy of their work. Unfortunately, I don't know where
    they are located but for some reason, I thing they are
    someplace in NY. Others responding to this note may have additional
    information.
    
    
    Joe

    
    A couple of the notes made mention of an electrostatic filter to trap
    dust. Our house has FHA. We have alergies and it seems to me that
    the heating system gives off alot of dust. I change the filter once
    a month but it seems we still get alot of dust. 
    Does anyone know what this electrostatic filter looks like and
    where it would be located on the heating system.
    Does anyone know where I could purchase one and the approx. cost? Is it
    something I can install myself?
    				Thanks, Roland 

Re: .17

I've seen them at Sears (no flames, please).  They fit in where your filter
normally goes.  I recall them costing about $200.  I would need two, so I
passed on it for the moment.

If you can't afford an electrostatic filter, look into the new 3M Filtrete 
filters which I've seen advertised (though I haven't spotted them in the stores).
These supposedly do a much better job of filtering than ordinary filters.

				Steve

    There is also a filter that is not electrostatic that cuts down the
    dust.  The one I installed was an Air-Bear and I'm pretty happy with it. 
    It also has the capability of being upgraded to an electrostatic unit
    later on if that is what you wish.  Don't remember the exact price but
    it was less than electrostatic.
    
    George

    
    The air filter which your interested in is made by Honeywell its about	
    2x2x8 and sits between the return and the side of the furnace, at least
    thats the way it would sit on our furnace.  The other advantage of this
    particular brand is that you can take two elements out and wash them
    in the dish washer or hose them off. the cost is around $250
    
    Ben,

	    For my FHA, I can fit 2 filters piggyback.  I bought a high
	efficiency corrugated filter that is supposed to trap 95% of the
	dust, pollen, etc. that passes through it.  To extend the life
	of this, I (barely) fit a standard filter on top of this.  I'm
	going with the presumption that this will trap the brunt of the
	dust.  I'll replace the cheapos on a regular basis and not have
	to replace the more expensive one (Purolator) for months at a 
	time. 
	    I haven't really decided how much of a difference this makes
	yet because it hasn't been installed for very long.  I'm sure
	that there are years of dust build up inside the ductwork, so it 
	may be a while before any real improvements are noticed.

					Tim

    
    	I'm in one of the most expensive areas for electricity and my
    home is all electric. I've had the so called "off peak" meter
    installed, but basically to no avail - I still cant get my monthly
    payment under $250! At 17 cents and 13 cents a KWH (for the OP), it's
    easy to understand why...
    
    	I've read through most of the notes in here, on the various
    forms of energy; oil, gas, electric...FHW, FHA et al. Some of the
    notes are old and the pricing may be out of date. I'd hate to spend
    a few kilobucks and end up with virtually the same bill! However,
    I'm considering a strategy to "unload" some of my electric consumption.
    
    	I've been considering converting to bottled gas for _some_ heat
    and the hot water, gas dryer, range top and oven. Advantages I expect
    are:
    
    		- Appx 900 KWH @ $0.13 /month unloading off the electric bill
    		  for the dryer and hot water.
    
    		- Appx 500 KWH @ $0.17 /month unloading off the electric
    		  for some of the heat
    
    		- Faster clothes drying times - on the order of 1/2
		  the time taken by the electric dryer.
    
    		- Faster, easier cooking.
    	
    		- Identicle warming performance of the bsaeboard heaters.
    
    	This is a multi-thousand dollar project and requires cutting
    up the house for plumbing, for FHW baseboard heater replacements.
    A quick calculation using the 1KWH = 3400 BTU info says I'm using,
    oh, 5 million BTUs / month. Divide the 93K BTU factor for a gallon
    of Propane and I get, oh, 54 gallons. At, say, $1.50 a gallon, this
    is $81 - vs $200 for the electric - provided my gas stuff is nearly
    100% efficient. Saving $100 /month, I could pay off the multi-thousand
    dollar investment in a few years, providing my calculations are
    correct. Anyplace I've messed up here?
    
    	Another strategy I'm exploring is a "severe" energy management
    scheme. Cut in half the wattage of all non critical (hallways,
    outside ornamental, etc) incandescent lighting, replace incandescents
    with florescents wherever possible, install motion sensors/timers
    wherever incandescents may "accidently" burn for hours, etc. In
    addition, install timeclocks on all zones of baseboard electric
    heating, setting each zone to come on only when the area is in use.
    Example; preheat bedrooms, shutdown in the wee hours, preheat for
    wake-up. Preheat dining area for morning breakfast, shutdown during
    the day with everybody gone to work/school, preheat for dinner.
    Etc. Also, install a timeclock on the HW heater, so that hot water
    availability is maintained only when hot water is needed.
    
    	I realize with a judicious application of self and family
    responsibility, I could achieve "the same thing" as lights can be turned
    off, individually zoned electric heating can be turned down. But, at
    $0.17 a KWH, a child's "forgetful mistake" of leaving the bedroom heat
    on all day is costly. Nobodys going to be that responsible, all the
    time, in reality. And, nobodys going to get up at 1:30 am and 4:30 am
    to save, oh, perhaps a few hundred KWHs over the course of a month.
    
    	As a minimum, this system would consist of a number of the kind
    of timeclocks sold for HW heaters, one for each zone needing control.
    Maxed out, it could be computerized, including seperate time settings
    for weekends, variable heating duty cycles depending on outside 
    temperature conditions and time of year, instaneous and daily KWH
    monitor/logger and emergency heating functions. 
    		  
	Since the maxed out system probably doesnt exist, I'd start
    off with the timeclocks, at appx a $250 expense for parts, for six
    clocks covering the HW, and 5 heating zones - plus wiring and
    installation labor.
    
    	If you've read this far, you can probably see what question
    I'm leading up to. I can spend X thousands on retrofitting a lot for
    more economical gas operation, or, I can spend only several hundred
    on a bunch of those timeclocks and getting them installed, for quite
    possibly a substantial savings as well. I realize there's dangers
    in each scheme; "what if there a gas leak and my house explodes"
    or "what if all these timers are off and it gets *really* cold
    and pipes start freezing" etc etc. I guess what I'd like to know
    is 1) if there's any severe flaws in my thinking/calculations and
    2) comparing the scenarios, what would you do? I'm an electrical
    engineer so the "electrical" part of the timeclock scheme is
    easily understandable.
    
    	Thanks,
    
    	Joe

I don't know the particulars of your area of the country, but here in central
NY, the local utility will provide you with estimates of savings by converting
from electric to gas.  A few years ago, I owned an all electric townhouse. The
payback from electric to gas domestic hot water alone was less that 1 year.

Bob

P.S. ...  I have a 240 volt timer for an electric hot water tank that you can
have for $25.

    	One alternative you didn't mention is one I see a lot of here in
    N.H. - supplement your heat with a wood stove. It can be cheaper in the
    long run if you don't mind heating with wood and if heat is the bulk of
    your electric energy cost.
    	I have gas FHW heat. It is definitely the most efficient
    alternative although, starting from scratch, it's also the most
    expensive to install. However, not only is my heat gas but my hot
    water, dryer, and stove are all gas. All the gas appliances, in my
    opinion, work better than their electric equivalents (which is what I
    had in my previous house). My current house is about 2100 square feet
    of living space. Yet I pay under $600 a year for gas, divided equally
    over the year! It's even hard for me to believe. So it definitely will
    pay for itself over the long haul...as well as make the house easier to
    sell if you're ever in that boat.

>                                                     So it definitely will
>    pay for itself over the long haul...as well as make the house easier to
>    sell if you're ever in that boat.

It might be worth trying to quantify the effect on resale value -- perhaps
you could contact a few RE brokers (they're probably not too busy these days).
I doubt if a complex electrical control system would have much appeal to a
buyer, unless the buyer's an EE.

    
    	Re .1, .2, .3
    
    	Thank-you.
    
    	Well, I'm definitely in for the long haul - no plans to move or
    sell out soon. I didnt mention that any savings I reap by converting
    will also have to cover interest on a loan for the gas-fired equipment.
    
    	Oh, I *do* use wood for some heat now - it's been shown to put a 
    dent in my bill for the month of December of last year, when I kept it
    going constantly over the Xmas holidays. Alas, the stove's not at the 
    bedroom end of the house...
    
    	One of the things that is a near constant over both summer and winter
    is the Dryer/Hot water expenses. I have a pool and a whole house
    fan, so what I save in the summer on heat seems to get burned up
    pumping water and moving air around. ;'( I'd guess appx 50% of my energy
    usage is open to the opportunity to save with an alternative, this
    probably approaches 100% in winter.
    
    	I've heard that gas dryers can actually completely dry a full
    load in a 60 min cycle - versus the two and *three* cycles the electric
    dryer has to go through to get heavy towels and jeans *completely*
    dry. This in itself translates to better Quality-Of-Life (less work)
    if true. Likewise with the cooking facilities on gas...
    
    	I'm not sure that the time switch control system would be a
    detriment in selling; just take the dogs off the timing mechanism
    and no switching - it'd be as if it wasnt even there.
    
	Joe

    Just a coupla suggestions....
    What is the condition of your dryer---My GE dries towels or hub's heavy
    work clothes in one 60-70 minute setting-??
    Have you tried dying some clothes on racks near the stove? Not real
    esthetic, but saves and fixes the dry air problem caused by woodstoves.
    
    Lynn
    

    
    Joe,
    
    Before you get a Propane Tank, check with the town to make sure you can
    get one. In my town, I can't if I have gas in the street, which I do.
    One alternative you might want to look into, is to just put in forced
    Hot-air in the basement and first floor. It'll be much cheaper, and it
    should heat the upstairs if the house is well insulated.
    
    Mike

My current house is all electric, with a wood burning stove.  My husband (and my
upbringing) doesn't allow me to use the dryer more than half time.  In the
summer it is easy and delightful to use an outdoor clothesline.  Put the wash
on the liner before work, take it off after work.

In the winter, I have lines strung in the basement, where the laundry room is.
The laundry room is open to the area where the wood stove is.  Our dryer has 
one of those things on the vent hose that lets you direct the warm air inside
or outside.  I take the clothes from the washer and put them in the dryer for
10 minutes, then hang them on the lines.  Wash done after dinner is dry in the
morning.  The time in the dryer takes out some dampness, reduces wrinkles and
fluffs the towels.  As a previous reply said, it balances the humidity to the
ideal 40-50%, and the heat from the dryer stays in the house in the winter.

This area isn't finished, so fluctuations in humidity don't matter.  My next
home (currently under construction) won't have this setup.  I'm not sure how
I'll live without it.

Some thoughts that may work for .0.

Elaine

re: Note 4469.4

>    	I've heard that gas dryers can actually completely dry a full
>    load in a 60 min cycle - versus the two and *three* cycles the electric
>    dryer has to go through to get heavy towels and jeans *completely*
>    dry.

      If  your  electric  dryer  is  taking  2-3  hours  to  dry a load,
      something is wrong!  Our electric dryer takes at most 1-1/2  hours
      for  full  loads  of  heavy  items like towels.  Check a couple of
      things.
      
          1) Is the dryer properly vented? Is the vent properly open? Is
          there a clogged  air  filter  that  needs  to  be  cleaned  or
          replaced?   If your dryer vents into your basement rather than
          outside, then the build up of moisture in  the  basement  will
          cause the dryer to be less efficient.
          
          2) Is your washer spinning properly? If you run it on "gentle"
          or if it isn't spinning fast enough it will leave an excessive
          amount  of  water in your clothes.  (Reserve the "gentle" spin
          cycle for delicates and perma-press -- which you  should  wash
          separately from jeans and towels.)
          
      Could  it  be time to replace the ole' dryer????  A new dryer will
      probably have one or more automatic cycles,  rather  than  just  a
      timer.  These cycles sense the amount of moisture and stop as soon
      as the clothes are dry.  No wasted electricity (or gas); no damage
      to clothes from over-drying/over-heating.
      
      Mind  you,  I  can't  say  for  certain, but it just might be that
      spending some money to replace  an  electric  dryer  (and  maybe  a
      washer,  too)  could  be much more cost effective than changing to
      gas, at least in the short run.
      
      Actually,  there  is  a  maximum  amount  of heat that a dryer can
      produce without  damaging  clothing.   Any  good  dryers,  gas  or
      electric, should produce this much heat.  So good gas and electric
      dryers should take about the same amount of time to dry any  given
      load of clothes.

    We have had an electric dryer for over 20 years, no problems other than
    a noisy motor.  I had an opportunity to pick up a gas dryer for $0.00
    that was only 4 years old.  So I did. We already use gas (natural gas)
    for heating, cooking, water. 
    
    We notice that the gas dryer does larger loads in less time than the
    electric. Since we have only had the new dryer operating for a little
    more than a month, it is difficult to accurately compare costs. 
    However, since I have all of our utility bill data for the last 15
    years, I can estimate closely.  It looks like our electic bill has
    dropped by about $30 with the gas bill up about $10.
    
    Dave

    
    With a family, a lot of your energy cost is in heating and using water.
    I just moved out of a rented place (we were there for one year) that
    had solar heating for water.  In the summer we used very little energy
    to heat water and even in the spring & fall the system saved energy
    by boosting the water to within a few degrees of required temperature.
    I don't know if it's still available, but the owner of the house
    mentioned that there were tax breaks available for installing such
    systems.  It was serviced by a company called Eastern Solar in
    Mass. Might be worth considering if you are there for the long term.
    
    Another thing to consider - many home appliances are just sitting there
    drawing current until you hit that remote "on" button.  Put these on a
    switched circuit unless you really need permanent running features
    such as timers/clocks in VCRs or on microwave ovens.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    

re: .9    A 20 year old electric dryer isn't representative of todays electric
          dryers in terms of heating efficiency, so your drying time comparison
          may be affected by that.  Gas dryers tend to be more economical in the
          long run because gas is cheaper (area dependant) than electricity, but
          the drying time is about the same with contemporary technology.

re: .10   Ronald Regan did away with the Solar Energy Tax incentives in 1986.

If you've already got gas, I don't think anyone could argue that it doesn't
pay to get a gas dryer rather than an electric one -- gas models are only
about $50 more than electric ones, and the plumbing shouldn't run more than
$100-$200.  I'd guess the payback is less than 5 years for practically
anyone.  But if you have to get a gas hookup or propane, I don't know...

    re .11
    
    Huh ????   Electric dryers improved in heating efficiency ?
    
    For any electric heating element efficiency = 100%.
    
    i.e.  Power input (watts) = Heat output (watts)
    
    Can't be any different -- laws of physics.
    
    
    So, how does a dryer work ?  Take house air in across heating coils
    pass it through the drum and wet clothes and exhaust hot humid air
    outside.
    
    The dryer efficiency may have improved by reducing the power input
    as the clothes dry, and by sensing the humidity of the output air
    to determine if drying is complete rather than rely on timed cycles
    which may be too long, and by setting an optimum air flow through
    the dryer, so as not to exhaust too much heat to soon, and too much
    heated room air.
    
    But, I doubt whether any of these changes would really reduce drying
    costs by much more than 10%, unless you used timed cycles and really
    over-dried the clothes.
    
    Stuart

    Does anyone have any good ideas on determining the cost of running an
    electric dryer?  I have an old Maytag that, perhaps unfortunately,
    won't die.  I'd like to know how much I'm paying to dry clothes.  I
    asked the local power company for the loan of a meter, but they tell me
    that they don't have one for 220V circuits.
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    Ken

    Determine the number of amps the dryer draws. This should be marked on
    a plate somewhere on the back. Multiply by 230 volts to get the number
    of watts. Then multiply the number of watts by the drying time in
    hours. Divide by 1000 and you have the number of kilowatt/hours
    required to dry your clothes. Multiply by your cost per kilowatt/hour
    and you have your total cost per load. Your cost per kilowatt/hour can
    be found by dividing your total electric bill in dollars by the number
    of kilowatt/hours consumed. You'll probably find it costs in the range
    of 50 - 75 cents per load.

    
    This is a reply to original note posted:
    
    
    Have you considered a gradual/mixed approach to energy cost reduction.
    For example you can do it in following steps:
    
    1. Think through where your house most of the heat loses are in the
       winter. Consider all 4 major ones: convection, conduction,
       radiation and mass transfer ( drafts ). Drafts are especialy 
       costly, they both lower room temperature AND they make you feel extra
       cold by a "windchill" effect. Eliminate all the drafts you can.
       Large windows/sliding doors should be covered at night to reduce
       radiated heat loss.
    
    2. Add motion sensors to outside lights. If you leave the lights all 
       night, the savings could be easily calculated.
    
    3. Install gas or oil heating. If you have 2 story house ( colonial or
       cape), consider doing forced hot water on the first floor only at
       first. The pluming cost should be much lower, since all the pipes
       could run in the basement, with the simple feed thru hole for 
       baseboards. The heat tend to rise anyway. The cost of running pipes
       upstairs may not be worth the savings. You add second floor 
       at a later date.
    
    4. Replace electric apliances with the gas ones. You do not have to 
       do them all at ones either. The payback of replacing the stove 
       depends on how nuch cooking is done. It may make sence to wait 
       until you have to buy a new ones anyway. Washers and dryers 
       and hot water tanks do not have infinite life anyway.  
      
    
    
    
       Whatever you decide on...  GOOD LUCK.
    
       Felix
    
    

Hi,

  I am considering converting my electric heated house to oil and I 
would like to know how much oil people use for heat and hot water.

  Crurrently I am paying around $117 a month average for heat and hot water
with electric. This is around $1400 per year. We do keep the house cool
(~62 degrees) and tend to turn the heat even lower at night on the main floor,
low during the day on the sleeping floor.

 The house is an 8 year old garrison 34 ft. X 24 ft. with 6" insulated walls
12" insulation in ceiling.

  I calculated from the BTUs we used that to get the same amount of BTUs
from oil (assuming a furnace of 70% effiency) that we would need around
500 gallons of oil to produce the same amount of heat.

My wife thinks I must have calculated wrong (besides being crazy) Perhaps I'll
add my figures to this note for confirmation, they are at home now. Since  she
claims "all" her friends use around 800 gallons of oil a year (don't know how
warm they keep their house). Could this be due to the typically lower number of
zones with a oil heated house vs an electric heated house?

 So, I'd like to know what kind of cost I might expect if I converted to oil,
How much oil do you oil heated people use?

Thanks,
Larry
 

    Well, we use about 3000 litres of oil a year to heat a 1600 sq ft
    bungalow, with uninsulated basement to about 70 day and 65 night.
    We have about R32 ceilings and R12 walls ... and LOTS of double paned
    glass.  Our furnace is about 70% efficient.
    
    We are in Ottawa....  Where our winter temp goes down to -20 to -30 C
    regularly.  I cannot remember how many heating degree days we go
    through.
    
    Now 3000 litres is around 750 gallons ... so 800 gallons sounds like
    an awful lot of oil given that your house is a two sorey with the same
    square footage and in a much warmer spot!
    
    500 gallons probably wouldn't be far out for a 70% efficiency furnace.
    
    But what about a modern high efficiency unit ?  They get up to about
    90% with oil now.  Thats 28% less oil ... or around 360 gallons !
    Now I pay an average of 30 c per litre, so my oil bill would only be
    $432 per year !
    
    Stuart

Of course, I forgot an important detail, I live in Sothern N.H.

As for the calculations here they are:

From the Electric bills I totaled for the year:

7073 KWH for heat
6494 KWH for hot water
-----
13,567 KWH total.

Now from note 1184 I have the BTU's contained in a KWH to be 3,410.

13,567 KWH * 3410 BTU/KWH = 46,264,834 BTU

It is documented that electric heat is 100% efficient, not so for oil burners,
so now we calculate the expected BTU per gallon of oil when burned in a furnace
(I guess there are more efficient furnaces out there, and I will certainly
consider them, but how long are they that efficient? How durable are they? I
will probably consider a popular durable burner with good efficency, not sure
what the run of the mill models get, but again I am using the figures from note
1184 which state that a modern burner is 70-80% efficient, and I like to
be a bit conservative when making these calculations. If I make the
decision to buy I will look here for recommendations)

137,400 BTU/Gal * .70 (efficiency of oil burner) = 96,180 Actual BTUs/gal

Now to figure out how many gallons of oil the amount of electric BTUs represent:

46,264,834 BTU / 96,180 BTUs/Gal = 481 Gallons of oil.

So, are these calculations resonable?

Now It occurs to me I don't have any Idea what oil costs these days, Just a
moment, I'll check the local paper............. Darn!  (that's not too strong
language for the notes file I hope!) some oil companies have ads but no prices!

So if some of you oil people out there woul also include what oil costs,
I'd appreciate it.

Thanks for the reply so far,
Larry

    I paid something like 87 cents for oil last fill-up...

    
    But, in the dead of winter, I have seen it go as high as $1.50 in Mass.
    I'd figure in the vicinity of $1.00 to $1.20 as an average for the
    year.
    
    

    I haven't been at my new house a full year yet but since December
    I have consumed approx. 900 gallons.
    
    3000 sq. ft.
    FHW with 4 zones
    hot water
    dishwasher
    temp during the day (6am - 11pm) 71 degrees
    temp during the night (11pm-6am) 61 degrees
    
    prices for oil in Ma. that I paid;
    hi of $.895
    lo of $.795
    
    I also burn wood on the weekends.
    
    -TB

Hi,
	I need to replace my forced hot air furnace. My local heating contractor
	recommends a brand called ThermoPride. They've been in business for
	around 40 years. The burner they use is made by Beckett. Their product
	literature looked good and was informative but I don't have any expertise
        in this area.

	Has anyone had any experience with ThermoPride products?

	Thanks.

	Pat

    	When I replaced the hot-air oil furnace in my previous home, I
    replaced it with a ThermoPride. I was a little on the expensive side,
    but it appeared to be a highly-reliable, highly efficient (86+%) model
    compared with others of similar price. Compared to the previous furnace
    in the house, this thing was built like a tank. A nuclear missile could
    have landed on my house, and this thing would have still been standing.
    It was quiet and as efficient as advertised for the two years I lived
    there with it.

	I'm once again in the market to convert my $350/month electric
	heating bill to a high eff oil system. I live in Dudley, south
	of Worc and Auburn, and I'm looking for suggestions on burners
	I can by that don't need a chimney, and an installer that won't
	burn me as well.

	Suggestions? I've looked at a "system 2000" burner but I'm
	concerned it won't last. Any info on these systems would also help.

	Bob

    I checked for the same type of thing......couldn't find a high
    efficency oil system, and now I'm getting a propane system.....
    plastic chimney!
    
    Marc H.

	I have a question regarding recommended maintenance
	for a gas fired forced hot water heating system. 
	Someone from the gas company came by recently and 
	was saying that these should be cleaned and checked 
	yearly. I was not aware that this need to be done that 
	often. The gas company offers a yearly service contract ($42/yr) 
	that covers yearly cleaning and check plus parts and labor on
	burner itself, relays circulator pump, thermostat and some
	other stuff if any of these fails. My experience is that these 
	things very seldom fail but I'd like to hear other folks options
	and experiences.

	If these things almost never fail, what it boils down to :^) 
	is how often should this type of a unit be cleaned and checked 
	(adjusted?) 

					Thanks,

						Lew

    re .48
    When my circulator pump failed, they came over to verify that it was
    the pump (I have a maintenance contract with the gas co.). The man
    said, "Yup, it doesn't work," and arranged for a contracted plumber to
    change the pump. The plumber came and changed it.
    
    My FHW system is about 25 years old and, short of a leaking boiler,
    almost everything is covered under the service contract. I plan to keep
    the contract current because I typically have one or two service calls
    a year and I have been satisfied with the service delivered to me.
    
    FWIW,
    ERIC

    
    42$ a year sounds pretty good for all that coverage, plus the peace of
    mind of getting an annual burner check.    Just to change the
    thermocouple is about $50 a visit.
    
    Regrds,
    
    Colin
    

    re.48  I converted my oil fired hot water system to gas a number
    of years ago and I have a rental conversion unit.  The gas
    company tells me they almost never need cleaning or adjusting...
    Do you suppose their story is different because they are
    responsible for the maintenance of the burner and I don't
    have to pay  ?  

re .48:

I've had a bad experience with my gas company's service contract.  I've
recounted that experience elsewhere in this conference.  Needless to say,
I didn't renew.

    
    	$42.00 .. sounds like cheat insurance to me! Like any other
    	insurance, you hope you don't have to use it, but it's nice
    	to have if you need it. If you don't think you will use it,
    	gamble and don't get it.
    
    		Jerry
    

    
    I have a question about having a 2-zoned house.
    
    Is there a way to "synch-up" the two zones so that when one zone kicks
    on the furnace, the other zone runs, too?  
    
    I'm making the assumption that when the furnace is running to heat one
    of the zones, the other zone may as well benefit from the firing of the
    furnace.  Is this accurate?  Or does the addition of the second zone
    "drain" the efficiency of the other zone (by 50%)?  If not, then
    wouldn't having two zones be *less* efficient than one?
    
    I imagine zone 1 kicking off the furnace which burns oil for a while. 
    During that period, zone 2 is cooling off.  A few minutes after zone 1
    is brought up to temperature, zone 2 forces the furnace on yet again.
    
    Do I imagine this right?  If so, wouldn't I be better off disabling the
    second zone and have the entire house fired off of a single zone?
    

    RE: .54
    
    No matter how you divide it up.....heat is heat. If you want all of
    the house to be at a certain temp, use one zone. If you want to 
    heat only the area you are using, zone it....and save money.
    Your heat analysis doesn't make sense.
    
    Marc H.

    
    > Your heat analysis doesn't make sense.
    
    Tell me which part didn't make sense, and tell me what you thought I
    meant.  I'm probably not doing a good job of explaining what I mean.
    

The thought (I'm guessing) is that there are inefficiencies with the head and 
tail of the burn cycle (one long burn cycle is more efficient than many short 
burn cycles).  If this is so, it would make sense to provide heat to any zones 
that could use it.  (Their temp is above their minimum, so they aren't calling for
heat; but below their maximum, so they could use it.  I believe that thermostats 
have an temperature range, or window (is this the anticipator setting?) around 
the temperature selected.

								-- Chuck Newman

The design proposed sounds like:

	1 zone, 2 thermostats.

    
    You're boiler is sized to add X amount of BTUs of heat to raise the
    temp of the water up to a set point whenever it falls below that point.
    
    If the total heatloss of your house is 100,000 btus at zero degrees
    outside temp your boiler should be sized for an output of at least
    10% above that for a "fudge factor".  Now then, if zone one has a 
    loss of 60K btu, that's all the boiler is going to use in fuel to
    to keep the water at it's set point.  If zone two is a second floor
    and the first floor heat rises and has an influence on the thermostat
    on the second floor and keeps it from starting the pump - you're a 
    little ahead of the game.
    
    The main reason for zoning is to provide a more equal temp in a 
    bldg.  Calculations for sizing so much baseboard per room can come
    pretty close for a single zone home. BUT - let it get down to 10
    degrees with a 30 MPH wind from the west and you'll feel the difference
    because the north side is where a wee-bit more heat is added due to 
    where the cold winds come from in N.E. most of the time also the sun
    doesn't hit there.
    
    My suggestion is to leave the system as is if it's performing ok for
    you.  Don't attmept to fix what ain't broke.  :^)
    
    Fred

    RE: .54 two zones and synchronization
    
    - I will ignore the heat efficency point, except to point out that
    depending on the technology/media in use (eg: gas vs oil, FHA vs FHW) 
    the energy tradeoffs of frequency and duration of heat cycles will be 
    different.
    
    - My FHA gas furnance with two zones, has a control panel option to have 
    it either way.  That is, the furnace can run both zones if either
    thermostat calls for heat, or only run the zone that calls for heat.
    They call the former OPEN and the later CLOSED.
    
    I have currently switched it to CLOSED as I am running one zone at a
    fair bit lower than the other, and it's a lossy zone.
    
    	Dave.

We have 2 zones.  One upstairs one down.  Usually we leave the upstairs zone off
and heat by convection.  Sometimes, when it's really cold, I open the valve for
the upstairs, and leave it open, and just use the programmable thermostat on the
downstairs zone.  It works fine for me.  Then again, I usually heaat with wood.

	Are there any rules of thumb for estimating heating capacity
	as a function of house area and house volume?

	E.g. given 2000 sq. ft. and 16,000 cu. ft., what's a reasonable
	guess for a furnace's BTU rating?  ... assuming modern insulation
	and windows, never mind all the refinements for window area, etc.

	rd

    RE: .1
    
    Check 1111
    
    Marc H.

	RE: .2

	Checked 1111

	DIRd for "btu" and "estim" in titles.

	(Found a note about estimating air conditioning load.  2839, I think)

	Any other thoughts?

Yeah, drop by Somerville lumber, if they're local to you, with a rough floor
plan.  For free they'll run a heat loss analysis and its worth the price, but
that's probably all you're looking for. 

    RE:2
    
    I have read formulas for needed baseboard radiation many times in here.
    Check more under heating...baseboard/furnace size/etc.
    
    Marc H.

    How rough do you want it? If you live in NE say between
    Boston/Worcester/Manchester NH 100K btu will do it for sure.
    Assuming a 'standard' house. (Average amount of windows and reasonably
    insulated)
    
    				Kenny

	Re .5: Thanks!

	I suspect 100K is a pretty good number, +-40K ...

	My burner is labeled 105K, and I have only 5 of 12 registers open.
	My house is not hermetically sealed, but it is well insulated, with
	double-pane windows.  I guess it needs about 70K.  So we can scale:
	an older house with weak insulation might need 130K.  Rough, but
	scaling to 130K is better than misscaling to 200K.

	(Turns out I don't need a new furnace.  Sears told me mine was still
	warranteed.  They replaced the heat exchanger for labor cost: $275.
	Two guys for about 3 hours: $45/Searsguyhour.  One of them knew what
	he was doing.)

	rd

    I just got quotes from two companies on replacing our boiler and
    burner.
    
    One company quoted a Weil-McLain with a Beckett burner.  The other 
    company quoted a Liberty boiler by Slant/Fin with a Beckett burner.
    Both quotes were roughly equal.
    
    I had never heard of Slant/Fin before, but the heating contactor said
    he likes them better than Weil McLain because the Slant/Fin uses metal
    push nipples to join together the sections of the boiler together
    rather than a rubber gasket.  He said this approach was less likely to
    leak.
    
    Has anyone heard of Slant/Fin before?  Or do they just offer their
    dealers better margins than Weil-McLain :-)
    
    		Thanks in advance,
    		Derek
    

    I have no idea what the quality is, but I saw Slant/Fin boilers
    at Home Depot in Nashua yesterday.  I hadn't thought it was
    a brand but a design.
    
    Weil-McLain boilers are very good, though.
    
    				Steve

Slant/fin is well known for hydronic heating products. They make some
of the most popular baseboard heating units. 

I personally didn't realize they made boilers too. Maybe they recently expanded
into that market. 

I've also heard that steel nipples (any relations to buns of steel?) are better
than neoprene nipples.  Our Burnham boiler has steel.

    In the May issue of my CONDO Management magazine there is an article
    titled, "Beat the cost of electric heat, get a Monitor". It goes on to 
    officially call this a Monitor heating system, a direct-vented heater 
    that is enjoying a word-of-mouth reputation for delivering warmth at 
    a fraction of the cost of electric heat. There are 2 models, a 22,000
    and a 43,000 BTU/hr and they are about as large as a standard suitcase. 
    Also for you sceptics out there these carry the seals of approval from
    both the Underwriters Laboratory and the Mass. State Fire Marshalls
    Office. Does anyone know anything about these? It almost seems to good 
    to be true but who knows...
    
    Barry 
    

What fuel does it use?  Electricity?  Gas?  If it is vented, it is 
probably not electric.  And if it is not electric, it probabably costs
much less to run than an electrical resistance heater.

The seals of approval probably mean that it has been tested to see
whether it is likely to electrocute anyone or set the building on fire.
That wouldn't have anything to do with its efficiency as a heater.

	Larry

It's a gas heater.  I have one of that style (not a Monitor) in my house,
but don't use it.  It's basically a room or area heater, not something you'd
replace a whole house system with.  But if you've built an addition such as a
family room and want to heat it, a direct-vented (through the wall) gas
heater can make a lot of sense.

					Steve

    
      The monitor heaters have been out for a while. They are kerosene
    fired heaters. They get both their air for the fire and vent their
    exhaust outside. They are quite efficient and fully automatic. And
    since they are sealed (like any furnace has the fire chamber sealed)
    and vent outside, they have no odor in the house. You can even have
    them fed from an outside tank. Their efficiency rating is fairly good,
    something on the order of 75 or so per cent, I think.
    
    				Kenny

    I've been heating my house with a monitor for the past 2 1/2 years
    and have been very pleased.  I believe the manufacturer's literature
    claims an efficiency of 90% or so.  It's definitwly high tech, with
    a digital readout, up to 4 temperature settings per day, and selection
    of BTU output based on the difference between the actual & desired
    temperature, and I suspect also based on the past history of how 
    rapidly the ambient temperature has changed.
    
    As a previous note mentioned, its probably intended mainly for space
    heating, but with a superinsulated house (which I have) it can do
    the entire home.  I have the 20,000 BTU model, but it rarely burns
    at that level.  Normally it operates (when its running) at 10,000 BTU.

    I like mine, too, and I use it to heat my entire house. (I do have 
    a *small*, one-floor house, though.)
    
    Since I got the monitor, my fuel bills have gone way down.
    I have a 275 gallon kerosene tank, which I filled twice last year,
    and once this year. The year before I got the Monitor, I went through
    three-and-a-half 275 gallon tanks of oil.
    
    I love being able to set four temperatures everyday.
    
    

How much do they cost?

tim

    I paid $1200 for the heater itself.  I only found one place that
    was willing to deal in kerosene heaters, so I didn't have the
    opportunity to compare prices, so I don't know if 1200 is a good
    price or not.  I also paid another 500 for the external tank and
    installation.  The installation was very straightforward and could
    easily be a do-it-yourself project.
    

	Hi,

	After doing dir/title for such words as "heat", "conserv",
	"energy", "efficient", "economy", I could not find what I'm
	looking for.  I'm sure that my question has been asked before
	so I would appreciate any pointers to relevant notes.  If not,
	well, here goes:

	I am looking for inexpensive ways to make my home more heat
	efficient.  The house is three years old, has forced hot air (gas)
	heat and gas hot water heater.  The windows are double paned
	Malta windows.  There are no storm windows for some reason.
	I'm not sure if this type can use storm windows!

	Anyhow, the house seems kind of drafty.  I've made curtains
	for most of the windows but I didn't see any change in the gas
	bill after the curtains were made.  I'd prefer not to cover my
	windows with plastic but I am aware of this as an alternative.

	Some other things we did... I closed the ceiling vents (heat
	ducts) in the bedrooms that we do not use.  The house has only
	one zone and I wonder if closing the vents makes any difference.
	After all, the heat has to travel all the way to the closed
	up vents, sometimes through 30-50 feet of duct work.  The rooms
	were certainly cooler, maybe 40 degrees.  I'm not sure that
	it helped our heating bill however.

	Another thing we did was to layer insulation over the attic
	stairs (we have a pulldown into the attic).

	Anyhow, any suggestions for making a home more heat efficient
	would be appreciated!  We are expecting our first child and
	would like to keep our house a bit warmer next winter than
	our standard 65 degrees without going broke in the process!

	Karen	

    
    Forced air equipment is designed and sized for a specific heat 
    transfer.
    
    If you have the literature for your furnace, find out how many
    CFMs (cubic feet per minute) it is designed to move. Next check
    the temperature rise spec.
    
    Example:  If your home has a 100,000 btu heat loss at zero degrees
    outside air temp while maintaining 70 inside, and the furnace is
    designed to move 1000 cfms and have a 50 degree rise (example only)
    across the unit, then each rooms amount of air is balanced to it's
    heatloss. The fan is designed to put a certain amount of pressure
    in the duct for the 1000 CFMs. Lets say .05" water column. 
    Now you decide to throttle off a couple of rooms. No problem there.
    BUT!  By restricting the design flow, it first off slows down the
    air across the heat exchanger making the air hotter. Could even
    have the unit tripping off on a safety stat. (Possible, not likely.)
    Then it increases the pressure inside of the duct so what goes out to
    to the remaining rooms is warmer than design, and has more velocity
    comming out of the diffuser, gets to the thermostat faster and
    shuts down prematurely, not allowing the "MASS" of the structure
    to absorb heat. Then it's back on again shortly.   
    
    Also, if the air gets hotter from slower travel across the unit,
    the heat-x does also. This shortens it's lifespan.  Plus, if the
    motor has been loaded to it's maximum recommended ampere draw,
    it's possible for the increase in duct pressure to slightly
    overload it.  I say "possible", depending on the fan specs.
    If the fan was at it's peak capacity before, the amperes could
    drop off a little.  Can't say without the data sheets and testing.
    
    I'm not suggesting you "DID" heavily upset the balance of "YOUR"
    system. Just bringing out what happens to some systems when
    thier operation is modified by someone other than a qualified 
    tech.
    
    Fred

Instead of dir/title, look in note 1111.1.  It's an index.
I don't recall whether specifically gas heat issues are discussed
anywhere else, but I do know that there are lots of notes about
various insulation issues.  A couple of ideas for your situation:

1)  Air exchange usually costs more heat than the wall insulation.
Look for places where air can get through.  Don't forget bottom to
top air leaks, e.g. into your walls from the basement and out into
your attic -- or around the edges of your attic trap.

2)  Insulation voids.  You fixed the attic trap, but are there
other places where there is no insulation?  They lose heat out of
apparent proportion to their area.

3)  Insulated ductwork.  Is all of your FHA ductwork in heated spaces?
I've seen houses where the duct passes through the garage, without
any insulation.  If so, you are probably losing a lot of heat here.

4)  Storm windows.  You could add these, but since you already have 
double pane, storm windows won't help much, except to reduce air
infiltration.  And if your windows are good and new, that's hopefully 
not a big enough problem to be worth adding storm windows.

5)  Unheated rooms.  I don't think shutting vents will have much effect, 
since there isn't insulation in the interior walls and doors.  Are those
rooms much colder than the rest of the house?  It's worth doing,
since it is cheap and simple, but I wouldn't expect much from it,
unless you also seal the unused rooms against air infiltration.

	Luck,
	Larry

    
    I don't know about all this heat energy math stuff, ;-) but you should
    have balance baffles in at least some of the ducts.  There's a lever at
    the bottom of the duct that allows you to restrict or close off airflow
    close to the furnace rather than at the register. We used these to
    reduce, rather than cut off flow to the unused bedroom and the result
    was simply an increase in airflow at the other registers.  The unused
    bedroom was kept about 20deg cooler than the rest of the house.
    
    The other effective thing in the baby room was thermal blinds,
    magnetically sealed over the windows.  These are great, cost about $40
    each to make but keep the nursery very warm and free of drafts.
    
    There was a lot of cold air coming through the windows even with storm
    windows, so we also used plastic barriers in the unused bedroom ( not
    aesthetic objections there).  Works out about $1.50 a window. A
    surprising amount of cold air comes in through the  electrical outlets
    too.  You can get a "Frost King" sealing gasket or use foam sealant.
    
    There's a useful note somewhere about building an EPS (styrofoam)
    box to cover attic steps or whole house fan outlets.
    
    Other things are, check and change the filter regularly and if
    it can be done easily, pipe in outside air for the furnace to burn.
    Check main door seals and draft excluders.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    

	A few, perhaps overly obvious questions:

	1) How much insulation does your attic have? Increasing the R value
	up there may be your easiest, cheapest bet.

	2) Do you have an automatic set-back thermostat? We have ours timed
	to set the heat down to 62 degrees at night, and to start warming up
	about 1/2 hour before we get up in the morning. You can buy set-back
	thermostats for as low as $30.

	3) You don't have storm windows - what about a storm door? How
	well-instulated are your exterior doors? Are they weather-stripped?

	4) Is the basement heated? Is the basement ceiling insulated? This
	can make a big difference too.

	Roy

    Call your gas company.  They might be able to put you in touch with an
    energy survey company that will take a look at your house and suggest
    ways to conserve energy.  In Massachusetts there is a group called Mass
    Save which is funded by the utility companies and will come to your
    house free of charge.

	    You can check to see if you have insulation in the cellar
	between the foundation and the first floor (along the walls).
	You could probably fit 6" of fiberglass all the way around 
	your whole house.
					Tim

    
    Its difficult to say what your problems are without seeing whats
    going on.  It could be as simple as slowing down the blower fan
    or caulking around window frames.  I have FHA and noticed when
    the wood furnace blower comes on (drawing celler air only, I have
    to leave the celler door open) I tend to draw cooler air from
    under doors and other holes in my walls.  Take advantage of any
    free energy audit programs.  That will give you a head start.
    
    JD

>	Anyhow, the house seems kind of drafty.

	I went back and read the base note again, and this is the only
	indication of the problem that you seem to have. Unfortunately, this
	is difficult to quantify. Do you have excessively high heating bills
	(we were as high as about $150/month for forced hot water gas heat
	this winter, in a ~2000 square foot split, and we know that we have
	to add some insulation in the attic, caulk around windows, etc.)? 

	In other words, is it an actual heat loss problem, or just the
	perception of draftiness? I would think that some level of draft
	must accompany any forced hot air heat. Have you had forced hot air
	before, so that you know what it feels like?

	Also, forced hot air can often dry out a house, making it feel
	cooler. A whole house humidifier (you can get units that attach to
	your furnace) might help a lot.

	Roy

Here's what I learned when we were considering converting a porch on the south
side of our house into a 3-dimensional solar space to "save" money heating the
house.  It turned out that this method was about the most expensive, with the
slowest rate of return (unless the 3-d solar space was designed into the house
initially).

The basic thing you want to do is to keep the heat, for which you've paid your
hard-earned money, inside your house as long as possible (obvious, yes).  Heat
leaves your house thermally (is this the term?) and through leaks.  Insulation
helps to retard the former and, to retard the latter, you've just got to plug
the leaks.  Basically, this is conservation: applying money here to conserve
is much cheaper and has the quickest rate of return on your investment than any
other approach.

You've already been advised to add insulation in your attic.  I would suggest
getting a "blower-door" test to discover where the leaks are; then you can
just plug them (caulking and weather stripping are CHEAP).  What they do in a
"blower-door" test is basically stick a big fan in one of your doors and turn
it on.  This pressurizes your house (or creates a vacuum if it's blowing out
of your house).  Then they go all over the inside checking doors, windows,
outlets, etc., looking for the leaks with little "smoke" devices.  This kind
of test runs a few hundred dollars but, again, the rate of return on this plus
the leak-plugging is the quickest there is.

Your local home heating company might be a good place to start to find an
outfit that does this sort of test.  Otherwise, look in the Yellow Pages under
some variant of "energy" for names of companies.

-Chris Allen

    We had a similar problem when we bought our house, and drafts were the
    most noticeable symptom.  
    
    Since you have a pull-down access to the attic, pull it down, get the
    biggest fan you can find, put it so that the blades are level with the
    attic floor and blowing FROM the house into the attic. Close all doors
    and windows in the house.  Then take a large candle with a large/long
    flame and move it around the edges of all windows and doors and in
    front of all electrical outlets/switches on the outside wall.  The
    flame movement will give you an indication of where drafts are coming
    from and relatively how bad they are.  
    
    The most serious are likely around the frames of doors and windows.  If
    that's the case, you can pull of the mouldings and fill the space with
    an expanding foam.  And there are pre-cut foam pads to put behind
    outlet/switch plates.  Our heating bill dropped by 1/3 the 2nd year in
    the house after we did all that; I used about a dozen cans of foam.  By
    the 3rd year we had a furnace mounted humidifier running all the time
    the furnace fan was on.  The bill dropped by another 1/3.
    
    Luck,
    Dave

I find it hard to believe but I couldn't find a note in here discussing oil-to-
gas heating conversion.  I did dir/titles and dir/keywords...If anyone can point
me to such notes please do.

Here's my situation...I currently have a 38-year-old oil FHA furnace that needs 
replacing ASAP (heat exchanger is rusting through and soot is starting to come
through the vents).  I just bought the house 2 weeks ago.  We got an estimate
awhile ago for an oil furnace replacement and the seller agreed to give me half
of that amount to go towards a new furnace.  I'm trying to decide whether to
get another oil furnace or switch to gas.  There isn't gas in the house but I'm
going to be bringing it in for my gas dryer so that's a given (it's cheaper to
run gas lines to the dryer than to buy a new electric dryer.  Plus I'll get a 
$200 rebate from the gas company which will actually cover the cost.)

So oil or gas furnace???  I got one estimate and am waiting for a second from
the gas company (for the gas option obviously).  This is what I have...

New oil furnace:
	York Oil fired furnace (100,000 BTU/HR output)
	Beckett burner
	duct work modifications, new flue pipe, fire code sheet rock or sprink-
	ler head above unit, new oil filter, electrical wiring

$1475

Hi-efficient gas fired furnace:
	York 93% efficient condensing furnace
	gas piping to meter, elec. wiring, condensate drain piping, pvc flue
	exhaustand combustion air piping, duct work modifications

$2350

Mid-efficient gas fired furnace:
	York 80% efficient gas furnace
	Hart and Cooley Ultra-vent direct vent flue
	Duct work mods, gas piping, elec wiring

$1700

I can't vent the mid-efficient gas furnace out my chimney cause they'd have to
put in a sleeve for it and I'd then loose the use of my fireplace.  I don't know
what the break down is for the actual furnaces vs the rest of the stuff.  I'm
waiting for that info.

I also don't know about operating costs.  Since I've just moved in, I don't know
what the oil costs are for the house.  I'd like to get an idea about operating
costs of oil vs gas to determine if I'll make up the initial extra money for a 
gas furnace.  Also, any other thoughts on oil vs gas would be appreciated. The
house is a ranch/cape.  There are 6 rooms on the first floor and the basement
(there is a finished family room in the basement) heated by the furnace.  Two
rooms were built into the attic but they have electric heat which I will leave
as is since they won't be used as often.

Thanks!!
Barb

> I did dir/titles and dir/keywords...If anyone can point
> me to such notes please do.

If you'd looked at note 1111, you'd have found lots of notes listed in 1111.47,
among others.

None of them talk about oil-to-gas conversion though - at least not by the sound
of the title.  I looked at some in that listing that I thought might have info
but they didn't help me any...

If you're running gas in anyway, go for the high-efficiency gas furnace.
It will be worth it in the long run, not only economically but 
environmentally, and will make your home more attractive should you ever
sell it.

				Steve

    I'd go for gas too, and probably the high-efficiency furnace.

What's the availability of parts and service for the high-efficiency furnace?
When I was considering a high-efficiency boiler, it was pointed out that no
one stocked parts or knew how to fix one.

    When I bought my Weil-McLein High Efficiency boiler (not a furnace) a
     few years ago, they sent out two reps to guide the plumber on 
    installation, as that plumber had never installed one before.  W-M 
    were very anxious to make sure that it went in right, and they promised 
    factory support to the plumber, if  necessary.   I have the installation 
    manuals for the boiler, and they're pretty well written, the unit isn't
    too tough to trouble shoot.  (The electrician mis-wired it, due to
    slight lack of clarity in the inst. guide, but I was able to figure it
    out and fix it myself.  
    
    The hi efficiency units are recondensing, and require a drain. 
    
    I appreciate the hi-eff unit every month when I get the bill.
    
    Carl

    When I bought my house I wanted to reconnect the gas line to run a gas
    stove.  The previous owners had switched from gas to oil for the
    furnace.  Because the gas line from the street to the house was over 30
    years old I would have had to pay around $1500 to get reconnected.  If
    I switched my heating system over to gas and added a hot water heater
    (I'm tankless now), I wouldn't have to pay for the connection.
    
    Since the furnace was only a couple of years old I opted for an
    electric range.

    I would like to learn of your experiences with the following forced hot
    air gas furnace manufacturers.  Small size 60 -80 BTU/hr unit.
    
    Amana HMT Plus
    Lenox
    Bard
    Heil Energy Marshall
    
    
    Any advice would be appreciated.  
    
    thks - Tom

    
    hey Tom, can you tell me some prices for that size furnace? I'm building
    an extension and not planning on puttitng a furnace in yet, just the
    pipes etc. If prices are AOK, perhaps I'll do it all at once.
    
    Thanks ! Simon

I'd like to add some to Tom's list - what do people know/think of Rheem and
York?

A regular Rheem furnace is $580.  A high-efficiency Rheem is $1020.  I don't
have the York prices with me.

Thanks,
Barb

I am in the process of installing a complete heating/cooling FHA LP system.
I went with a Comformaker 81% efficient system 80K BTU in 65K out.  It looks
to me to be a well constructed system and have been pleased with the specification
that I am using for the system design.

Wayne

	I'm planning on having a house built and am looking for the PROs and 
	CONs of having a FWA heating system -vs- a FHW heating system.

	If there is a base note which address this can someone supply
	me a pointer?  If not, anyone have an opinion?


	-kg

    You can start with these - then do a DIR/TITLE=FHW and find the topic
    your looking for.
    
      49  TRACTR::DOWNS        22-JAN-1986    22  WHAT KIND? FHW vs FHA
        85  THORBY::MARRA        10-MAR-1986     9  FHA ducting and basement ceilin
       593  FRSBEE::PAGLIARULO   22-NOV-1986     4  Tying woodstove into FHA system
      1063  MORMPS::WINSTON      23-APR-1987     6  FHA air filter
      1077  GNERIC::FARRELL      27-APR-1987     8  FHA Humidifier Needed
      1137  WELFAR::PGRANSEWICZ  14-MAY-1987    18  Oil FHA furnace Replacement
      1491  SERPNT::THULIN        4-SEP-1987     6  Gas FHA furnaces &installation
      1578   MKFSA::STEVENS      26-SEP-1987    31  FHA duct work??
      1624  FGVAXZ::BEISTEL      19-OCT-1987     5  ?LP GAS-FHA,Flues and Returns??
      1626  BARNUM::JORGENSEN    20-OCT-1987     9  FHA Efficiency Check
      1634    STAR::SWIST        23-OCT-1987    10  FHA furnace blowermotor source
      1637  LOONMT::PAGLIARULO   23-OCT-1987    13  Gas FHA Fan Limit Controls
      1826  PARITY::GALLAGHER    27-DEC-1987    20  Boosting the FHA flow?
      1865  MANANA::BENNETT      11-JAN-1988    13  How to fix humidifierin FHA sy
      1882  TALLIS::LEMIEUX      18-JAN-1988     9  FHA oil
        71  CADDLE::MAHLER       24-FEB-1986    13  Air trapped in FHW pipes
       129   SSVAX::SARAO        16-APR-1986     2  FHW Gurgles
       187  STOWMA::ARDINI        3-JUN-1986     2  STEAM TO FHW $$$
       291  MENTOR::LEITZ         6-AUG-1986     5  Oil FHW Boilermakers?
       305  STOWMA::ARDINI       13-AUG-1986    26  FHW and Hot watertrouble! Help

There is also a keyword custom made for this:

HEATING-COMBINATIONS-COMPARISONS-CONVERSIONS

    RE: .3
    
    I would say that you would benifit more by viewing the comments
    as helpful. "Thanks for nothing...." will certainly stop any
    helpful comments I would want to make.
    
    Have you read the replies sited?
    
    Marc H.

    
    OK, I'll give you an opinion.  If you want to get central A/C installed
    with a FHW system, it will cost you an arm, leg, and then some.
    Presumably the cost is so high since you need to have ducts installed.
    It is a lot cheaper to have A/C retrofitted to a FHA system since
    the ductwork is already there.
    
    With FHA, you can add a humidifier to the system and not to each room
    as with FHW.
    
    With FHW, you can easily define zones (can you do this with FHA? I
    don't know).
    
    FHW systems seem to me to give a cozier heat than FHA but it could be
    my imagination.
    
    Maybe someone else can comment on efficiency.
    
    Phil

    There hasn't been much action in this note lately...
    but I just called BFC and got a COD price of .75 (average).
    
    There is $10 yearly membership fee for this service.
    
    Question is, could we beat this average just by tracking
    numbers ourselves. I live in metrowest and the rates
    around here a month ago were .89 My problem is
    that most of these companies offer reduced rates
    via coupons and schemes. I just want the lowest COD
    price in the area. So anybody getting oil for
    less than 75 cents per gallon in Boston metrowest area?
    

	For comparision, my oil co. in Nashua (McGlaughlin) just quoted
	me a cash price of $.649.  I can prepay X number of gallons and
	lock in at a rate of $.749 (if not all used by April, balance
	is credited).

    We just had our tank filled in early September in Pepperell, MA.  The
    cash price if paid within 10 days was $0.699 from Shattuck Oil.
    
    							John

Below is a chart of heating systems costs vs fuel cost using that was sent to
me by someone at Littleton Light & Water when I inquired recently.  

Energy
Cost
Index
($/million BTU)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
. . .
29|                                                                    .10-|
  |                                                                        |
28|                                                                        |
  |                                                                       -|
27|                                                            .14-|       |
  |                                                                |       |
26|                                                               -|   .09-|
  |                                                                |       |
25|                                                            .13-|       |
  |                        1.70-|                                  |      -|
24|                             |   1.60-|                        -|       |
  |                             |        |                         |       |
23|                        1.60-|        |                     .12-|   .08-|
  |                             |       -|                         |       |
22|                             |        |            2.00-|      -|       |
  |                            -|        |                 |       |      -|
21|                             |   1.40-|                _|   .11-|       |
  |                             |        |                 |       |       |
20|         200-|          1.40-|        |                 |      -|   .07-|
  |             |               |       -|            1.80-|       |       |
19|            -|               |        |                 |   .10-|       |
  |             |              -|        |                _|      _|      -|
18|         180-|               |   1.20-|   2.00-|        |       |       |
  |             |               |        |       _|        |   .09-|       |
17|            -|          1.20-|        |        |   1.60-|       |   .06-|
  |             |               |       -|   1.80-|        |      -|       |
16| 200-|   160-|               |        |        |       -|       |       |
  |     |       |              -|        |       -|        |   .08-|      -|
15|    -|      -|               |   1.00-|        |   1.40-|       |       |
  |     |       |               |        |   1.60-|        |      -|       |
14| 180-|   140-|          1.00-|        |       _|       -|       |   .05-|
  |    _|       |               |       -|        |        |   .07-|       |
13|     |      -|               |        |   1.40-|   1.20-|       |      _|
  | 160-|       |               |        |        |        |      -|       |
12|    _|   120-|  200-|       -|    .80-|       -|       _|       |       |
  |     |       |     -|        |        |        |        |   .06-|   .04-|
11| 140-|      -|  180-|        |        |   1.20-|        |       |       |
  |    _|       |     -|    .80-|       -|        |   1.00-|      -|       |
10|     |   100-|  160-|        |        |       -|        |       |      -|
  | 120-|       |     -|       -|        |        |       -|   .05-|       |
 9|    _|      -|  140-|        |    .60-|   1.00-|        |       |       |
  |     |       |     -|    .60-|        |        |    .80-|      -|   .03-|
 8| 100-|    80-|     -|        |        |       -|                |
  |    _|       |  120-|       _|       -|        |            .04-|
 7|     |      -|     -|        |        |    .80-|
  |  80-|       |     -|        |        |
 6|    _|    60-|  100-|    .40-|    .40-|
  |     |             -|        |
 5|  60-|           80-|        |
  |                         .30-|
 4|
. . .
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     Hard   Soft-   Coal    Natural   LP Gas   Kero-    Fuel    Elec.    Elec
    woods   woods             Gas                sene     Oil    HeatPmp Resist
  ($/cord) ($/cord)($/ton)($/100cuft) ($/gal)  ($/gal) ($/gal) ($/kwh) ($/kwh)

  21 mill   17 mil  25 mil   102,000  94,000   135,000  139,400  3,413  3,413
 BTU/cord  BTU/cord BTU/ton BTU/100   BTU/gal  BTU/gal  BTU/gal BTU/kwh BTU/kwh
                                cuft

   60%       60%     65%       70%      70%      80%      65%      150%   100%



Bottom 3 rows are (no room for labels above):  Source (Cost Unit), 
                                               Energy Content, 
                                               Seasonal Efficiency


For example, if you are paying $.07/KWH for electric (resistance) heat, looking
in thetable, that's equivalent to fuel oil costing approximately $1.85, or
Natural Gas costing $1.40 cuft.  Presumably, if you know your annual heating
bill, you can divide by the rate to get usage and see how much you'd save by
converting (if you are considering it, as I am).  

(Note: The costs may not appear perfectly linear due to the resolution
       limitations of the character cell output.)

								_Mike

    
      Thanks Mike. That's a great chart and one that easily and clearly
    shows the price relationships between the various fuels. I would like
    to add that if you know how much you spent in dollars last year for
    fuel, you can find out how much it would cost with a different fuel
    with this table.
    
    				Kenny

If you are looking at a new furnace, the efficiencies listed for non-electric
tend to be low.

My LP gas furnces is 94.6% efficient, no 70%.  Makes a big difference.

You should check the available appliances and recalculate.

Tom

    	Re:.4
    
    	I was going to ask about the same thing. My oil furnace is 85%
    efficient. I think I've seen that chart quite a while ago. It's a nice
    chart, but in need of some updating.
    
    	One thing I did notice, electric resistance heating will require a
    special (averaging) calculation for PSNH customers (and probably
    others) as the first 250 KWH are at $.9+ and anything above that is 
    $.13+ per KWH. 
    
    	At the upper price, electric resistance is right off the top end of 
    the scale. With what I'm paying for oil (~$.70), I'm off the scale at the 
    low end.
    
    	Sometimes I find electric companies a little weird. They sell a
    product and then give you praise and support when you try to use less
    of it (conserve.) In this case, there almost screaming at you to switch
    to something other than electricity for heat.
    
    	Ray

    RE: .5
    
    Keep in mind that the 85% number is converting oil to heat, not oil to 
    heat (hot water).
    
    Marc H.

    
     Also keep in mind that still the vast majority of furnaces in use
    today are of the more average efficiencies. For Gas it IS 70% and for
    oil it is about 65-70%. I believe even new installs are still less than
    50% of the high efficiency type.
    
      The chart is great. Its easy enough to modify a number if your
    situation is not exactly the same as the charted numbers.
    
    				Kenny

	    Wood stoves are usually better than 60% efficient these days.
	I think 80 to 85% is normal.

					Tim

    
      Sure, new ones. Care to guess what percentage of furnaces and
    woodstoves out there are more than 5 years old or just of the lower
    efficiency?

    	My Weil-Mclain boiler/Beckett burner was installed in 1988. The
    technology is likely older than that. Last month, my furnace was tuned
    up and listed as 85% efficient. 
    
    	You can sort of tell by looking at the chart that it is probably 10
    or more years old. Wasn't it the late 70's and early 80's that the big
    OPEC fuel crunch occured ? That may account for the oil prices
    approaching $2 while resistance electric stops at $.09 /KWH.
    
    	Ray

    re .10  Yeah, those burner technicians can get pretty imaginative at
    times. I think the highest high tech oil burner you can by is only some
    where around 88-90% efficient and expensive.
    
    				Kenny

I need help in understanding the differences between a GAS based furnace and
an OIL based furnace that have been quoted to me as a replacement for my
current oil based furnace.  My main concern is that I do not understand how
to make sure that the furnaces have comparable capacity.

Both furnances quoted are manufactured by the Burnham company:

                         Oil furnace    Gas furnace
Model                       V-76            IN6
DOE Heating Capacity MBH    221             144
Steam MBH                   166             108
Steam sq ft                 692             542

The GAS based furnace numbers sound quite low compared to the oil based
furnace numbers.  Is that bad, or is that because gas based systems need
less to heat the same house.  [OK, I'm lost in all this thermo stuff]

Would someone be willing to point me to a book or enter a short tutorial
on how to compare these two systems.

Thanks,
Arnold

PS: Anyone know a 800 number for the Burnham company that I can call?

    Well, they don't have the same capacity.  The gas unit looks to
    have about 65% of the capacity of the oil-fired unit.
    
    The source of the heat is inmaterial.  A BTU is a BTU, whether
    from burning gas or burning oil.

    I have a question with regards to my trying to determine the "average"
    cost of heating my cape.
    
    We recently purchased the home and this was our first winter in it as
    well.  We're using a 100,000 BTU FHW natural gas system to heat our 
    ~1900 sq.ft. home.
    
    Currently our costs are averaging well over $200 per month, which does
    include our gas hot water tank as well.
    
    We normally maintain a temperature of ~70 degree, as my Wife is normally
    at all day with the children.
    
    Could someone please compare this with a similar scenario and let me
    know if this is relatively close or not to being a good number?
    
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    Scott  

We have a cape with about 2000sf of heated living space.  The wall insulation
is pitiful - R8.  We have FHW heat with a "BoilerMate" attached for hot
water.  We also run a gas cooktop and clothes dryer.  Our monthly gas bill
peaks at around $110 in the winter months, dropping to under $20 in the
summer.  However, we don't keep our house as toasty as yours; the main
floor thermostat goes to 64 when we're home, 50 otherwise.  The upstairs
thermostat tends to stay at 50.

Under your conditions, $200/month in the winter doesn't seem unreasonable.

If you want to reduce costs, try bringing the thermostat down a few degrees.
It's healthier for you and the kids.  Get a setback thermostat which lowers
it down further, say to 60, at night.

				Steve

Our cape is about 1300 sq. ft. with a full dormer on the north side (in back),
and we have gas everything.  Three kids, ~63 at night, ~68 in the day. 

Summer bills are $20/mo, winter bills were $170 (220 therms) two years ago, and 
are about $50 (40 therms) this year with our wood furnace (~4-5 cords of wood).

Pretty standard insulation.

								-- Chuck Newman

    
    We use gas for FHA and hot water.  During the month of December the
    bill was $157 with the setback thermometer set to:
    
    	11:00pm - 60
    	6:30am	- 70
    	8:30am	- 55
    	5:00pm	- 70
    
    For January, we reset it to:
    
    	11:00pm - 58
    	6:30am	- 65
    	8:30am	- 55
    	5:00pm	- 65
    
    With the provision that anyone could hit the override button and allow
    it to rise to 69 degrees.
    
    The bill for January was $97, even though the average temp was a degree
    or two lower.
    
    Colin
    
     

    Thanks to everyone for the information.
    
    This will help us to determine what steps need to be taken during this
    spring and summer to get things in shape for the next go around.
    
    We're also looking closely at our furnace, which is an ~8 year old 100,000
    BTU Bryant, and wondering exactly how fuel efficient it might be.  From
    what we've been told, the real efficient models came into being around
    5 years ago.
    
    So, we'll be doing some tightening up with the windows, doors, insulation,
    and installing a set-back thermostat with hopes for a better next (less
    expensive) next winter.
    
    
    Thanks Again,
    
    Scott
                                             

I doubt that replacing the furnace is cost-effective.  The setback thermosat
is likely to make the biggest impact, as would learning to live with the
heat set a few degrees lower.

				Steve

    Ditto on .5.  Replacing a furnace/boiler/whatever, if it isn't
    *really* old or in some way broken, is not likely to be cost-effective.
    
    Turning down the heat, even only a few degrees, is a big win.
    
    Minor improvements like tightening up windows, caulking cracks, etc.
    can also make an incredible difference.  A layer of insulation in
    the attic (if there isn't any) can do wonders.  Make sure there isn't
    something incredibly stupid in the house, like a hole through the
    wall or under the sill.  When I moved into my house, I wondered where
    all the cold air in the cellar was coming from.  I took down a piece
    of sheetrock hanging from a ceiling joist next to the wall and found 
    a gap about 4" high and 6' long under one of the sills!  The previous 
    owners of my house used about 2,000 gallons of oil a winter.  By not 
    doing much of anything spectacular, just taking care of details (and 
    fixing the incredibly stupid stuff like that hole under the sill!) I cut 
    that to 1,200 or so.  That may be extreme - it's not likely you're as
    careless as the previous owners of my house were - but the point is,
    the little details that don't cost much can be a big win.
    

    We shut our oil furnace off three weeks ago after installing a gas water 
    heater.  Last week, the guy came for the annual tune up and said that
    due to the humidity we had had recently, much of the works were
    severely gummed up.  the cleaning took about 3 hours.  So my question
    is, should we never turn this beast off?  i had hoped we could turn
    it off during the summer months now that we have the gas water heater.
    
    c

Do you have an oil-fired furnace or boiler?

I have an oil-fired boiler which we shut down about
mid April and don't turn it on untill mid-October
every year as we live off solar heated water during that time.
On long spells without any sun, we turn the
boiler on. Starts fine.

Never had problems except the very first time
when the tankless water heater gasket started leaking
when the boiler was turned off for the summer.
My friend the plumber said this was normal in that
the gasket had been kept hot and when it cooled,
it contracted. Tightened it up and no more problem.

Gummed up furnace? 3 hours!

In fifteen years on this Burnham boiler, I had one
tune-up person work on it (three times). I only called him
because it hadn't been tuned in 12 years. The boiler 
worked fine before he touched it and was lousy for a year after.
My friend the plumber told me the tune-up procedure, I had the specs,
so I work on it and it runs clean and efficient. BTW, the tune-up
person had installed the wrong nozzel, and thus the adjustments
where also wrong.

Dan

    re:67
    
    > and it runs clean and efficient...
    
    	Just out of curiosity, is there some way that you can determine
    the operating efficiency without the little giz they use, or are you
    just basing it on your fuel consumption ?
    	
    	Last year we had someone in to do the service. He described the system 
    (which was new to me), replaced the fuel filter at the tank, replaced 
    another filter at the furnace, replaced the nozzle, and bled the line. He 
    also used some sort of giz to determine the actual efficiency before and 
    after the servicing. He bled the FHW heating system and wound up replacing 
    the pressure relief valve that went in the process of bleeding the lines.
    
    	We had some sort of coupon, so the whole thing only cost $50 for
    everything except the expansion tank, which wasn't too bad as I recall. 
    He replaced the expansion tank with a larger one (the old one was
    completely full of water and was undersized for our house). All in all,
    just the time he spent explaining all the components in the system was
    worth the $50 to me.
    
    	Ray
    	

There's a gadget that they suck exhaust in from the flue pipe
and observe the soot level. The goal is to have the burner operating
JUST below a certain soot reading in this glass tube.

Dan

    
    Actually to measure the over all health and efficiency of the burner
    and boiler/furnace combination, they measure three things.  
    
    First they suck smoke through filter paper and compare it to a 
    reference sheet to measure the amount of soot (not fully burned 
    oil) the burner is producing.  The soot level can be adjusted by 
    varying the air intake to the burner.  
    
    Then they measure the % CO2 in the exhaust and the exhaust 
    temperature.  The stack temp is measured with a high temp
    thermometer (it can be hundreds of degrees).  The % CO2 is
    measured with an instrument containing a CO2 absorbing liquid
    which you draw exhaust into.  The amount of liquid displaced is
    proportional to the %CO2.  Again referring to charts these two 
    values indicate the over all efficiency of the unit.  The C02 and 
    exhaust temperature are affected by the air intake to the burner, 
    the nozzle chosen, the design of the furnace and a little by the 
    draft adjustment. You're goal is to get the highest % C02 and exhaust 
    temp for your heating unit, while getting the soot just right.
    
    There is a tradeoff.  If you adjust for a very clean burn (low soot)
    then you actually lose effiency because of the excess air you're 
    drawing in.  If you have too much soot, then the efficiency also
    goes down, and the excess soot accumulates in the boiler/furnace
    and chimney.  The % CO2 is also affected by the air intake and
    draft adjustment, but I think is more a function of the burner and
    boiler/furnace design - and the nozzle you use.
    
    I think this is all correct :^)
    
           Jim D.

    re:-1
    
    	Now that you mention it, I do seem to recall seeing those steps
    taken on my unit when it was tuned. Since then I have changed over to a
    power vent. The burner guy said that these usually increase the
    efficency. I'll have to have him back this year to make sure all the
    adjustments are correct again.
    
    	Ray

     Steam Heat works with oil fired burner, I want to change from oil to
    Gas. My Thanking was  I will buy the gas burner and replace the oil
    burner. My question is: Can this be done without changing the whole 
    system. Is this yes how much the gas burner will approx. cost
    
    Any ideas will be appreciated
    
    Members of the DIY
    
    Frantz
    

    	Have you looked at note 1111.47. There appeared to be some topics
    on this already.
    
    	Ray

    
       I'm looking to have my 20+yr FHA (gas) furnace replaced.  Any
    recommendations on a company that will remove the old furnace and
    install the new one?  I've already received several qoutes but they
    ranged from $1900 to $3500 for the same BTU and energy effeciency.  I
    did not get the brand name from anyone.  I'm looking for a 90+%
    effecient system.  Any suggestions on brand names?  
    
    Thanks!

Thanks to 5741.1 for pointing me to 1111.52...  This is where this note
    should go,... however, there hasn't been any activity since 1987.
    
    Any new recommendations would be appreciated!
    
    John
    
    
           <<< 12DOT2::NOTES$STUFF:[NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;1 >>>
                                 -< Home_work >-
================================================================================
Note 5741.0              Recommended FHW/boiler Services                 1 reply
LANDO::OBRIEN "Give it a TRI"                        19 lines  12-DEC-1995 15:36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Looked in 1111.50 and couldn't find a note related to:
    
    Recommended FHW/boiler Services
    
    I'm looking for someone reputable and a fair price to do a yearly
    service on my boiler(clean, adjust, new filter, new nozzle, measure its
    effeciency, etc).  First year in the house, Concord Oil came out as a
    promotion for free, if we filled up w/ them.  This guy was excellent. 
    However, they're VERY expensive.
    
    The past 2 times I've had it done by someone else, and they were not
    nearly as thorough.
    
    Looking for recommendations in the Boxboro/Acton... area.
    
    thanks  
    
    John
    
    

    Yesterday I attended an open house at Intelligen Energy Systems
    in Hopkinton, Mass.  Intelligen manufactures a home-size cogeneration
    heating system that in the process of heating your house also
    generates 5kw of electricity.  If you're using more than 5kw, more
    comes in from the power line; if you're using less, the excess
    goes out onto the power line and runs your meter backward.  Very
    roughly, the amount of oil required to heat a typical house turns out
    to be about the amount of oil required to generate the amount of
    electricity used by the house, subject to individual variation,
    of course.  In effect, the electricity becomes free, since it becomes
    a by-product of the oil you'd be burning anyway to heat the house.
    You end up with very low (possibly negative!) electric bills.
    
    It's a neat package.  The unit can just replace an existing FHW boiler,
    or it can replace a FHA furnace by putting what amounts to a radiator
    in the plenum and extracting the heat that way.
    
    Mechanically, it's a very high reliability 2-cylinder 11 hp diesel
    engine coupled to a generator, with a microprocessor to control it,
    all enclosed in a sound-deadening enclosure so it's very quiet.  
    
    It WILL NOT RUN if there's a power failure.  This is for a couple of
    reasons.  One, for safety of linemen working on power lines they
    think are dead; they don't want your generator suddenly coming on.
    (Same as with a regular generator, you need a disconnect switch).
    Two, the unit uses the generator as the engine starter motor, so
    there has to be electricity coming in to start it. Three, by not
    running during a power failure they solve the synchronization problem.
    While I understand why they did it that way, I was hoping it could
    act as an emergency generator during a power failure, and it can't.
    
    Maintenance is minimal.  Once a year oil and filter changes.  They
    use a supplemental oil sump of 10 gallons (!) to help achive the
    long service interval, so the oil change costs quite a lot, but
    there's nothing difficult about it, apparently.
    
    The exhaust goes through a heat exchanger and emerges at 150 degrees,
    so it can exhaust through PVC pipe.  Overall efficiency of the unit
    is around 93%.
    
    Cost is $8,000, plus installation.  Yeow.  Quality, however, is high, 
    and if you have high electric rates the payback could be within a few 
    years, and net savings from then on.
    
    IF I needed a new boiler...I'd seriously think about getting one.
    As it is, I have a perfectly servicable boiler, so it's even harder
    to justify the big up-front cost.  If I were going to spend $3,000
    on a new boiler anyway, it would be easier to justify.
    
    Anyway, I was intrigued.  It's a well-done package.  
    
    Intelligen's number is 508-435-9007, and they're at 98 South St. in
    Hopkinton.  Exit 21B off 495, then first left.
    
    (Usual disclaimer: I have no connection to Intelligen, etc.)
    

    Do they have lots of satisfied customers?
    
    How complex does the system appear?  It seems to me that the more
    complicated the thingie, the more service it will need.
    
    Mark

>    Mechanically, it's a very high reliability 2-cylinder 11 hp diesel
>    engine coupled to a generator, with a microprocessor to control it,
>    all enclosed in a sound-deadening enclosure so it's very quiet.  
    
    How does it provide the domestic heat? Is that a by-product of the
    electrical generation? Is it primarily a heating unit with a
    by-product of extra electricty or the other way around?

    re:468
    
    	The cogeneration systems I've read about use the water cooled
    engine block to generate the heat. FHA roughly equates to a fan blowing
    on the radiator, and FHW uses the coolant itself.
    
    	While they would be somewhat economical in the winter, the cost 
    to run would be more expensive than using a conventional electrical
    service connection, if you weren't using it to heat your house. 
    
    	Electricity generation is one of those things where economy of
    scale comes into play. You'll be hard pressed to be able to generate
    cheaper than what you could buy it for, even with Seabrook.
    
    	Ray

re .470:

>    How does it provide the domestic heat? Is that a by-product of the
>    electrical generation? Is it primarily a heating unit with a
>    by-product of extra electricty or the other way around?

An engine/generator is really a device for generating electricity with a
byproduct of heat, but in this case it's being used as a heating unit with a
byproduct of electricity.

An internal combustion engine is something like 25% efficient at generating
mechanical energy.  Most of the rest shows up as heat.

Mechanical energy (in this case converted to electrical) is more "valuable"
than heat energy.  The idea is to use a system that generates 25% electrical
energy and 75% heat (neglecting other losses) rather than an oil burner
that generates 0% electrical and 100% heat.  As long as everything else is
equal and the price of electricity is more than that of oil, this method comes
out ahead.

    Yes, they get the heat off a heat exchanger on the engine exhaust and
    the engine coolant.
    They were pretty clear that it should be viewed primarily as a
    source of heat, not electricity. The electricity is a bonus by-product
    of heating your house.  
    
    As for complexity; well, it's certainly more complex than your average
    home boiler.  Is is sufficiently complex to be worrisome (i.e. will the
    complexity lead to problems?)  Dunno. It seemed to be extremely well-
    built, with a lot of attention paid to high reliability and longevity.
    They project a lifespan of approximately 20 years.  They've had one
    running 4 years now, with no problems.
    
    The numbers do sum almost exactly to 0 for me.  We use roughly 1200
    gallons of oil a year and 11,000 kwh a year.  From 1,200 gallons of
    oil the unit wil produce
    
    1200 gal.
    -------- => 2222 hours running time X 5Kw/hour => 11,111kwh produced/yr
     .54gph
    
    So, if the numbers were really those numbers, I'd actually have a
    surplus of 111kwh for the year, instead of a ~$1100 electric bill.
    
    Cost per kwh generated actually isn't all that high, either; it's about
    $.10/kwh, which is about what Mass. Electric charges.
    

    re: last
    
    > Cost per kwh generated actually isn't all that high, either; it's about
    > $.10/kwh, which is about what Mass. Electric charges.
    
    	Based on a fuel charge of what ? This sounds pretty low. Since this
    is a direct function of how much you're paying for diesal fuel, it would be
    interesting to see a range based on different fuel costs. At $.10/kwh,
    that's lower than what I'm paying now for PSNH. I suspect they're using
    fuel oil to run the generator, but even still, $.10/kwh sounds too low.
    
    	If you didn't need the heat, it sounds like you'd be swapping an 
    electric bill for a fuel bill. I have FHW with a tankless oil-fired 
    boiler. In the non-heating season, I go through less than half a tank 
    to supply hot water, so that wouldn't be much of a savings in my case.
    You'd also need to factor in the maintenance costs of the generator
    engine to get the complete picture.
    
    	Even still, it sounds very interesting and worth looking into. Sort
    of gives you some control rather than getting manipulated by the
    electric Co. monopoly, assuming it winds up being cheaper.
    
    	Ray

    Like I said, look on it primarily as a heat source, not a generator.
    It runs only when your house needs heat, and does not run otherwise.
    Anytime it's running, you need the heat.
    
    Figure fuel oil at ~$1/gallon.  It runs on regular #2 home heating
    oil, which is equivalent to diesel fuel without the tax. (My oil bills
    say something about it being "undyed diesel fuel.") The engine burns 
    .54 gph, so a gallon will last a bit less than 2 hours.  For simplicity, 
    say $1 worth of oil will last two hours. 
    
    It generates 5kw, so in two hours it will generate 10kwh, for a
    fuel cost of $1.  That works out to $.10/kwh.
    
    Mass Electric's policy at the moment is to credit your account
    in kwh, back to a yearly net of 0.  If you generate more than
    you use during the year, they pay you wholesale ($.035/kwh or
    something) for the surplus.  So, they credit you to 0 at retail,
    in effect, then pay you wholesale for the surplus.  Unless your
    local rates are *really* high, including the wholesale rates, it
    probably wouldn't pay you to set up a bank of radiators outside
    to dump the excess heat and just run it as a generator!  But for
    getting rid of your own electric bill it seems like a pretty good
    setup.
    
    I think I said the yearly maintenance was 3 filters + a 10-gallon
    oil change...about $60 or so.  That assumes, of course, nothing
    else goes wrong.

> Cost per kwh generated actually isn't all that high, either; it's about
> $.10/kwh, which is about what Mass. Electric charges.

	For comparison PSNH on my last bill was $.10938/kwh for up to
	the first 250 kwh, and $.14903/kwh for kwh's over the first
	250 kwh's.  Plus a monthly customer charge of $8.68.

re .474:

Remember the electric cost isn't just for the energy.  You also have to pay
for upkeep on all the poles, wires transformers etc. between you and the
power plant.  Oh, and Seabrook :-)

re .475:

>    Figure fuel oil at ~$1/gallon.  It runs on regular #2 home heating
>    oil, which is equivalent to diesel fuel without the tax. (My oil bills
...    
>    It generates 5kw, so in two hours it will generate 10kwh, for a
>    fuel cost of $1.  That works out to $.10/kwh.

Remember this calculation is for the equivalent of all the waste heat being
dumped.  You should include in the calculation you're getting free heat.
Actually since you'd be using the thing for heat and getting electricity as
a byproduct you should calculate how much it would cost to heat your house
and figure out how much "free" electricity you'd get.  (don't forget you'll
use more oil since some of the energy shows up as electricity and not as heat,
unless you use the thing to run space heaters which sort of defeats the
purpose...)

    	Was the .54 gph at peak load ? Generator advertisements seem to
    have this nasty habit of showing fuel consumption at 1/2 the rated
    load. Assuming it was linear (which it probably isn't), this would
    raise the cost/kwh to $.20/kwh at $1/gal. if in fact this were true.
    
    	Of course, the $1/gal. is currently a high figure to use too. From
    what I've read though, allowing for $.70/gal. for fuel and the 1/2 the
    rated load consumption rate, this starts to get close to what I recall
    seeing for cost/kwh for a typical diesal generator. If you burned 1 
    gal./hr to generate 5kwh, that would be closer to $.14/kwh using $.70/gal.
    
    	This is very attractive when you're essentially getting your heat 
    for free. Like you said though, as a generator it's not the cheapest
    way to go. At an $8k installation cost, the return on investment is
    going to be way out there.
    
    	Ray

    re: .477
    
> Actually since you'd be using the thing for heat and getting electricity as
> a byproduct you should calculate how much it would cost to heat your house
> and figure out how much "free" electricity you'd get.  
    
Exactly.
    
    (don't forget you'll
> use more oil since some of the energy shows up as electricity and not as heat,
> unless you use the thing to run space heaters which sort of defeats the
> purpose...)
    
    You'll use about 10% more oil (according to Intelligen), although that
    depends on how efficient your present system is I suppose.  This unit
    is over 90% efficient; exhaust temperature is such that you can use
    PVC pipe.  
    I guess if you ran 5kw worth of space heaters,  you'd effectively be
    back to a heat-only setup.  
    
    If anybody is really curious about it, give 'em a call.  I
    expect they would be glad to show you around.  They aren't 
    at the giant uncaring multinational corporation stage of
    development in their corporate life yet.  ;-)  

    re: .478
    I think it's .54 gph, always.  Remember, this thing is hooked up
    to the power grid.  The load is constant, for all practical purposes.
    

> re .477:
> Remember the electric cost isn't just for the energy.  You also have to pay
> for upkeep on all the poles, wires transformers etc. between you and the
> power plant.  Oh, and Seabrook :-)

	The upkeep of the infrastructure you mention is not part of the
	kwh (usage) charges.  In NH that's that the "Customer Charge"
	is for.  My guess is this is part of the government regulations
	that dictate this ...

> This unit is over 90% efficient; exhaust temperature is such that you can
> use PVC pipe.  

	... but not just any PVC pipe.  If it's anything like the 90%+
	effecient direct/power-vented [natural] gas boiler I had installed,
	it's a special PVC piping (and also special caulking for joining
	the pipes).  I believe it cost me $150 for the "venting kit" for
	my boiler which was no more than 10 ft of pipe, plus a couple of
	elbows, the caulk and the double walled thingy that you run the
	PVC pipe though the wall.  Plus the city inspector also had me
	put up some sheet metal, offset from the surface, whereever the
	vent pipe was closer than 6 inches or so from a combustable
	(ie. wood) surface.

    re: .482
    
    I have no idea about that.  It certainly *looked* like regular
    PVC pipe, and they didn't seem to be taking any particular pains
    about clearances on the unit I saw running.  The pipe was also
    cool enough so I could put my hand on it, so I don't see any reason
    for heat shields.  They even had a flexible rubber coupling, with
    hose clamps, joining the PVC pipe to the exhaust outlet from the
    heat exchanger.  Whether all this would actually pass muster with
    a building inspector I don't know.
    
    I suspect you may have had a somewhat tradition-bound inspector
    who just wouldn't believe any heating system could have a flue
    that cool.

Maybe this was mentioned and I missed it, but does this unit cycle? In
other words, does it start up when a zone calls for heat, and produce the
electricity as a byproduct just during that time? Or, does it run full
time? (If it's the latter, do you throw away excess heat?

By the way, I asked John Deere if I could run heating oil and/or kerosene
in my diesel tractor. They said I could in an emergency, but did not
recommend its use full time. It seems heating oil and kerosene lack some
additives that are put in diesel to prolong diesel engine life.

That being said, you can still buy diesel fuel that is not taxed, if it's
going to be used off road. Farm implements, heavy equipment, generators
and boats are in this category.

Thanks,

Art

>> re .477:
>> Remember the electric cost isn't just for the energy.  You also have to pay
>> for upkeep on all the poles, wires transformers etc. between you and the
>> power plant.  Oh, and Seabrook :-)
>
>	The upkeep of the infrastructure you mention is not part of the
>	kwh (usage) charges.  In NH that's that the "Customer Charge"
>	is for.  My guess is this is part of the government regulations
>	that dictate this ...

If they can pay for all the equipment for $8.68/customer/month that's a real
bargain.  On the other hand, the utility should be making money hand over fist
by generating/buying it at $.035/kWh and selling it at $.10+/kWh.

I suspect the answer is somewhere in between ($8.68 is your share of a minimal
power line as far as your house, a certain $/kWh pays for a big power line
instead of an itty bitty one, because people actually _use_ power)

    re: .484
    
    I think I mentioned it back there somewhere, but perhaps not
    explicitly enough.  Yes, the unit runs when a zone calls for
    heat and shuts down otherwise.
    
    Before I went I was wondering how they controlled the heat output 
    too!  I had visions of an external radiator somewhere.  I'd assumed 
    starting and stopping the engine like that would be a problem, but 
    apparently it's not.  
    
    Somebody at the open house (with a JD tractor!) questioned the use
    of home heating oil in a diesel engine and asked about additives.
    According to Intelligen's best information, it is not a problem
    and you don't need additives.  They've had a unit running for
    several years now, and they had a "satisfied customer" on hand who's
    also been running a unit for several years with no problem, so
    it seems to work okay.  This is also a pretty well-defined and
    unchanging environment for the engine too, which may help.  Within 
    very narrow limits it's constant speed, it sits in a constant-
    temperature environment (your basement), and because of the way
    it's started (with the generator acting as the starter motor
    spinning it nearly up to full operating speed before starting), the 
    oil is already up in the engine before it starts. Of course, if it
    worries you, you can buy any number of diesel fuel additives...but
    I doubt you'd really need to.
    
    I was generally impressed by the level of engineering that's gone
    into this thing.  The founders/designers of the unit are a couple
    of MIT grads and high-tech refugees (the president of the company
    used to work for Digital), and they seem to know what they're doing.

I've got a 10' x 20' sunroom with a concrete floor, 8 windows covering the
south-facing side and 2 windows covering the west-facing side, and, underneath 
all of those windows are old-style (no fins or anything), hot-water radiators
that some previous owner installed but aren't currently hooked up to our 
heating system.  The windows are old windows  but there are storm windows on
them.  There's a door between the rest  of the house and this room.  We're
trying to figure out the best way to  heat the room and make it usuable space
in the winter.  With all of those  windows on the south side, we really don't
have a problem except during  the coldest months.

We're debating between hooking up the radiator as a separate zone and getting 
some kind of space heater.  Overall cost (installation/purchase cost plus
operating  costs) and effectiveness are both considerations.

One plumber estimated the hookup of the radiators to be $800 and I have 
no idea what the impact on my gas bill will be.

I'm guessing that a space heater would be much cheaper but I don't really 
know what type would be best or if a space heater would stand a chance of 
warming up that room with all of those windows.  No idea about the operating 
cost of various types either.  I understand that some are good at warming 
up what's close to them but not the whole room and perhaps that's the best 
that we can hope for in that room.

We're also considering installing some kind of carpeting in that room to 
make it a little nicer and hopefully to have some warming effect.

OK, that's the problem.  What would you do?  Thanks in advance.

Walker

    My vote: hook up the radiators as a separate zone.  You can turn
    the zone down when you're not in there.  Most of the time it won't
    run anyway.
    

    	If you decide to go the space heater route anyway, there was a 70k
    btu one listed in the want ads the other day for $375. We had one half
    that size installed in my rental property, and it does a good job.
    
    	The unit I saw in Classified_ads was for propane. Not sure what you 
    have, but most units can be switched from one to the other with only minor 
    mods.
    
    	Ray

    if you're concerned about operating expense (i.e. long term), heating
    with gas/hot water is a lot less expensive (in terms of operational
    expense) than electric heat.  this is highly dependent, however, on
    your installation.  for example, if connecting the radiators means
    simply piping it into the main circulator route (or if your house has
    only one thermostat), the area could be a heat sink (depending on how
    airtight this space really is).
    
    incidentally, i think that $800 is pretty stiff - unless it includes a
    separate zone/thermostat and a good radiator flushing and pressure
    check.  those things were disconnected for a reason, after all.  if
    they're old and the lines are run in the concrete floor, there's a good
    chance of a leak.
    
    electric heat is expensive to operate but relatively cheap to install.
    i wouldn't try a space heater for a 200 sqft area; your heat will be
    uneven and *very* expensive.  instead, i'd use 2 pieces of baseboard -
    an 8-footer under the windows on the long wall and either a 4 or
    6-footer under the windows on the short wall.  if you do buy baseboard,
    make sure you get the kind with the steel elements, not the cheapie
    aluminum ones that some DIY places sell.  of course, you need to make
    sure your service panel can support the additional circuit, and you'd
    need to remove the old radiators.
    
    if the $800 includes the right stuff and the radiators don't leak, i'd
    be inclined to go with the hot water route.

    gee - 3 notes at once.  8-)
    
    one personal comment regarding ray's propane/space heater suggestion: i
    know two people who have done this and have been very surprised (and
    disappointed) by the amount of condensation caused by an unvented gas
    heater.  in both cases, the units were removed within a year of
    installation.
    
    another idea: put in a small wood stove.

I suggest looking into radiant floor heating.  It is the most efficient
for this type of situation.  You would have to lay down tubes on the
concrete floor and then either bury them in another layer of concrete or
subfloor.  The floor would always be warm.  Since you already have hot
water,  this should be possible.  Radiant floor heating could also run
off a domestic hot water tank.  This option probably would cost the most
upfront, probably $1000-1500 for parts plus some kind of new subfloor.

Garry

    re:513
    
    	In my case, the heater was direct vented through an outside wall.
    This may change the technical term from "Space Heater" to "Furnace";
    I'm not sure.
    
    	We had no condensation problems with the unit. I almost wished it had
    put more moisture in the air though. Typically, most houses are dry in
    the winter. 
    	
    	We purchased the unit through Petrolane (now Suburban I think) for 
    $500 as a turn key operation. It included the unit and installation,
    including the thermostat, and all the plumbing. The only additional
    cost was for the propane, which we did not have to start with.
    
    	Ray
    	Ray