Conference 7.286::home_work

I have a good friend in Newton who has had a lot of plastering done.  
I'll get the name of his person.

I also suggest you call up Channel 2 and find out who does the 
plastering for This Old House.

- Paul

Someone told me yesterday that I'd be better putting drywall up on the 
ceiling, and then having someone that knows what they're doing put a skim
coat over the whole thing.

Any comments?


-bill

re .2

Most plasterers want to work with "blue board" vs drywall.  If you are going
re-surface the ceiling to receive plaster, I would suggest you investigate this.
                                                                               

Bill --

I thought you'd never ask.  We've recently had a lot of plastering done,
and we're very pleased with the work.  The price -- compared with all the
other estimates we got -- was good.  Since you know where to find us, you're
welcome to come over and take a look at the work.

	Brendan Gormley

I can find his number for you, so I won't bother to post it here.  Get an
estimate from him and see whether you like it.  Incidentally, he put up blue
board before plastering the ceilings; it's not the same as drywall.

---Pete

RE: .4

Where is your plasterer, Brendan Gormley, located?

Did he use blue board or lath on walls?

-- Ward

Our plasterer:

	Brendan Gormley
	29 Ottawa Road
	Arlington MA 02174

	643-1384

Please mention my name if you call him.  His work seems good, the price was
good, and he was punctual and reliable.  Anyone who wants to give me a call
about taking a look at the work, try me at DTN 225-5441, or write me a note.

Ward -- he used bluboard, be for us he did only ceilings.  Do you have an
opinion on the topic?

---Pete

    
    I'm going to be doing some cosmetic work to our bathroom.  Has
    anyone seen or heard of any materials for the ceiling other than
    the basics (i.e., sheetrock, tile, wood, suspended ceilings)?
    It's a small area so cost is no factor. 
    
    I'm tired of washing mildew!
    
    					Steve

    Steve,  I believe I've seen you in other notes.  Hi.
    
    I have a Cape, and I just went thru the mildew washing.  Unfortunately,
    I waited too long, and now I have mucho peeling.  The base material
    seems to be just fine, except for a yellowing.  I can't decide if
    I should try to remove all the old paint ( How is also a decision
    I haven't faced), and then apply new , or replace the ceiling. 
    It seems foolish to re-do the whole thing, but I can't see an easy
    way to remove the old paint for a smooth finish.
    
    I've been told that the major problem with the peeling is that a
    good seal has not been established around the perimeter.  This is
    a definite problem, as I have different wall covering materials,
    and I don't want to seal them in place with RTV caulking.
    
    If you, or anyone has suggestions, fire away, please!!!
    
    Lee

    If you've already got peeling there probably isn't much you can
    do to totally correct that problem.  However, when/if you replace 
    the ceiling, I'd recommend sheetrock and gloss white enamel paint.
    The gloss paint is more waterproof, I think, than flat or semigloss,
    and is also easier to wash if necessary.  I once owned a house in
    which the former owner had used textured paint on the bathroom
    ceiling...a BAD choice!!!
    
    I think you can buy paint with fungicides in them, which might help
    if you have a real mildew problem.
    
    If you repaint the ceiling, be sure you kill all the mildew first
    and wash it down really well.  Regular household bleach works just 
    fine for killing and washing off mildew.  Follow that with a wash
    with SpicNSpan to get off any grease, and you should be okay.
    
    If you do have a mildew problem, look into getting rid of some of
    the excess water in your bathroom that is causing it.  A vent fan,
    or even just a fan to blow the moist air out into the rest of the
    house.
    
    Steve

    
    My house, being less than a year old has none of these proplems.
    I guess it is all a matter of time though.  I think I'll put in
    an exhaust fan before it gets too late...
    
    						.dave.
    

    Well, it's finally done.  And I must say, it looks great
    
    Brendan Gormley did the job, at a very reasonable price.  We removed
    all of the old plaster and cleaned out the lath.  he came in and
    put up blue board, then skimmed it. The price, $295.00 for a 13x13
    room, smooth finish.
    
    AND as an added bonus, we had a large hole in the hallway wall,
    and when he was leaving (guess he had a little extra plaster) he
    fixed that!  (no charge!)
    
    Thankss for the suggestion Pete
    
    
    -bill

     We had our kitchen & MBR ceilings replastered the fall of '84. We shopped
    around for the best price. One local plasterer said he would not
    do it without first hanging a new ceiling. Another local plasterer
    said there is a special bonding material that makes hanging a new
    ceiling unnecessary and is cheaper. The first plasterer said it 
    doesn't work. Guess which plasterer we selected?
    
    There are now cracks in both ceilings!!
    
    			but I won't buy the Brooklyn bridge
    			herb
    

    There is also a novel item called a ceiling button which consists
    of a perforated washer 1.5" in diameter. The washer has a larger
    hole in the center for the insertion of a screw. One locates the
    lath underlying the plaster and then fastens the screw to the lath.
    This will draw up a sag in the ceiling (but do it with some care
    and 6" spacing between the buttons - along the stress point). Then
    you can cover the button with Spackle, joint compound or plaster
    and follow with paint, when dry.
    Ceiling buttons also work well on wall cracks, etc. It is a quick
    and simple repair and I've many that are still holding after six
    years.
    	Mike G
    

    Blue board is necessary when you plan on skim coating instead of
    the tape, compound, paint route used for sheetrock (drywall).
    
    					Steve 

	My kitchen ceiling has got a glossy paint finish that is nice 
and really reflects the light. However my wife would like to cover this
with a flat white. The problem is that we do not know what kind of paint
was put up there (latex/oil base) and whether we can coat it with a regular
flat. Any suggestions....?

							Robert

    Your wife may find out that the flat finish paint is a great grease
    catcher.  That's why they use semi-gloss paint for kitchen ceilings.
     It is very easy to wash if need be.
    
    BTW, speaking of washing walls, ceilings, etc.  If you need to remove
    crayon marks, try using WD-40.  It works GREAT!  I've only tried
    it on semi-gloss though.
    
    Bruce Bretschneider

Can that paint be put over any paint..? What I'm afraid of is putting this 
paint over a paint that is not the same (oil/water based) and have it peel.
We do gather a lot of steam on the ceiling from cooking on the stove. Are 
paints compatible this way...?


						Robert

    Also keep in mind (gee, I seem to have learned a lot through
    experience) that kitchen walls and ceilings get very greasy.  Don't
    skimp on the cleaning.  Do it twice.  Trust me. 
    
    -joet (of the peeling kitchen ceiling)

    I'd hesitate to use WD-40 to remove anything from a wall; I'd be
    afraid of paint peeling the next time I painted.  Have you tried
    painting over it later?
    
    For washing paint, Spic'n'Span is the thing (otherwise known as
    trisodium phosphate).  No matter what kind of paint you end up
    using, wash the ceiling well first.  Peeling ceiling paint, once
    started, seems to be impossible to stop, and kitchen grease seems
    to be a great contributing cause.  Gloss paint isn't a great
    base for painting over under the best of conditions.  There is
    some stuff you can buy that kills the gloss - sort of a liquid
    sandpaper effect - that might be a good idea.  I'm not sure what
    the stuff is called, but it shouldn't be too difficult to find.
    
    I'd advise against flat paint on a kitchen ceiling too.  Semi-gloss 
    at the very least, and gloss better.  Sometimes practicality needs
    to override aesthetic considerations.  But I guess that depends
    on how much you value being practical.
    
    Steve
    

    I have painted gloss oil over gloss latex - the result of some
    monumentally bad advice about how gloss latex was just as good as
    oil-based for covering wood trim - without any trouble.  I was told
    the only problem might arise because the gloss paint doesn't give
    a good surface for the next layer to stick to, so I went over all
    the surfaces with a jitterbug sander lightly.  I would probably
    go after your ceiling the same way.
    
    	HRB

    Re .4   Sears used to sell (don't know if they still do) a product
    called SAND-BAN. Wipe the to be painted surface with it and you
    don't have to sand.  It seemed erode the gloss of glossy paints
    and saves a lot a work if the surface doesn't need sanded for other
    reasons.
    
    I think you can safely put the flat latex over gloss oil if the
    gloss is removed.  However, like the others I would be hesitant
    to do so.  At least examine the ceiling now to see if it collects
    grease.  I have a ceiling with flat latex but also have cabinets
    and a hood.  Mine was flat when I bought the house and we don't
    have any problem.  But I certainly remember my mother washing grease
    off the ceiling and walls of our kitchen when I was a kid.
    
    Marty
    
    
    
    over the stove.

    If you go to a "real" paint store, not Sears, Channel or Grossmans,
    you can pick up a small mildew preventative additive that you can
    mix in with your paint.  This stuff is usually mixed in with house
    and deck stains.
    
    -al

    
    I've seen a bathroom [my brother in-law's] which used sheet "Corian"
    (sp?) on ceiling and walls.  Its a man mand material, comes in large
    sheets of various thickness and is kinda expensive.  The typical
    use is for kithchen counters.  Anyway, looks good, waterproof, minimal
    seams, easy to work with...

You'd have to have a heck of a lot more $$$ than I do to put Corian on a 
ceiling.

Paul

    I've heard a lot about Corian (besides being expensive).  Has anyone
    used the stuff?  Is is really the miracle substance that they claim?
    Is it easy to clean?
    
    As for cost, I've started some preliminary checking and have discovered
    that the price is NOT really prohibitive.  There is a Corian wall
    kit for bath tubs that I saw run for $430 (don't think this included
    Corian on the ceiling, although it is not a bad idea).  Don't
    remember what the cost was for the cast iron tub.  Corian comes
    in large sheets in various thicknesses.  A thin Corian piece for
    the ceiling may be more expensive than other alternatives, but the
    cost may be worth it if it is maintenance free!
    
    For comparison, I saw the single unit fiberglass bathtubs run for at
    least $600 AND they are a pain to clean.  I, for one, want to
    investigate this Corian stuff more before dumping the idea.  
        
    Marlar is another "miracle" polymer used for bathroom countertops
    that is similar to Corian.  It is supposed to be quite a bit cheaper
    than Corian.  I have not heard of it being sold in sheets, so don't
    know if it is an alternative for the ceiling.

    Bill

On the subject of Corian, I priced it for counter tops and a 30" wide strip
(I didn't remember to ask the thickness) was $50/running foot!!!!!

-mark

    I would not use Corian on a ceiling but for a wall in the shower
    or a counter top it is great! I did my kitchen 9 years ago with
    a Corian countertop and it is really easy to work with and finish
    off. Scratches just sand out and if you nick it with a knife, then
    it is not the end of the world. It was expensive but I don't recall
    that it was more than 25% over the cost of formica. The formica
    would be ready to be replaced now, while the corian is still like
    new. 
    
    Caulk your joints with a clear or matching silicone sealer and it
    is waterproof and neat. Use masking tape on both sides of your joint
    with only about 1/32" of edge of Corian showing beside jjoint, then
    caulk and wipe with your finger immediately to work it into the
    joint. Let stand a few minutes, pull up tape and you are done. 

    Maybe I'm just old fashioned, and this maybe it doesn't exactly
    fit, but I have a counter top in the house I bought that was installed
    several years ago, has but minor nicks (all major nicks were avoided
    by using cutting boards). The material was cheap, and ths sidees
    were finished with metal trim. The material looks like just plain
    ole' linoleum (congoleum if you want to get pricey). Assuming
    it was installed when the appliances were installed (in between
    1955 and 1971), that puts it somewhere between 15 and 30 years old.
    
    In some "Home <fixitup>Magazine", they had an issue which covered
    all sorts (well, many types of coverings) for floor, ceiling, walls,
    and of course bathrooms.  Some of the coverings were:
    WallPAPER on the FLOOR, Ceiling, and FLoor coverings on the WALLS,
    CEILINGS, and other sorts of strange but attractive mixes. It
    wasn't what so much what was used where, but HOW it was applied.
    
    The Wallpaper on the floor was totally ceiled with Polyxxx varnish;
    teh bathroom coverings were sealed with a varnish containing a
    fungicide,and the wall coverings were just ordinary sorts of things
    like favorite rugs, cardboard squares, splatterd painting on white
    paper, newspapers, favorite photos, home_stenciled scenes, 
    etc.
    
    The whole key is: How to protect it from unwanted destruction !
    
    The magazine was either "Better Homes & Garden", or "Colonial Homes".
    
    95% sure, anyhow.
    bob
    

    RE: .7
    
    I have a Corian bathroom vanity sink top.  It has worn well, can
    be repaired very easily.....I love it for that purpose.  One problem
    I would find in trying to hang the stuff on the ceiling is that
    it would tend to be heavy, if it comes in 1/4" sheets...maybe lighter,
    but how would you attach the sheets to the ceiling.  More precisely,
    how would you cover the nails, screws, etc?  The other disadvantage
    that I could see is that condensation would form a lot easier on
    Corian that other conventional ceiling materials, and tend to drip
    onto the floor which could create other potential problems.
    
    As far as using Corian for the bath tub walls.....excellent, but
    again, I don't know how you would stick the sheets to the wall except
    for maybe with adhesive....I wouldn't try adhesive on the ceiling
    though.
    
    Just thought I would share my thoughts.....I'm new on the notes
    file and am enjoying this note file quite a bit...a very good resource,
    and very practical with all the "hands on experience".
    
    ROB

    	I have it also in my bathroom and tub enclosure. There is a
    piece on the ceiling and it (just like the walls are 1/4") was
    put on with some sort of mastic compound. It has held up very
    well.
    

    We have painted our kitchen counter (covered with linoleum) with
    epoxy paint. It wears like iron. Good for 5 yrs or more. Would think
    that epoxy paint would be an excellent and cheap alternative to
    Corian for the bathroom.
    
    
    
    		herb
    

    Was the counter covered with linoloeum, as mentioned, or rather
    Formica?  I've got a counter-top that's pretty beat, but don't really
    want to replace it just yet.  Would epoxy paint work on Formica
    as well?  Also, is it easy to find in most paint stores, or do only
    certain specialty stores carry it?  Thanks.
    
    
    Mark LePage
    

    If you are going to repaint Formica, you should be sure to sand
    the surface to rough it up.  You can buy good epoxy paint from
    a boat supply store, but it is very, very expensive.
    
    -al

    What is very, very expensive?  I don't believe I'd be using any
    more than 1-2 quarts as I don't have that much counter space.  
    (Actually, I don't think I could use as much as 2 pints!).
    
    Also, what kind of finish - glossy/flat, smooth/rough do you get
    with an epoxy paint - I've never used them.
    
    Mark
    

    
    	Better check whats in boat quality epoxy paint before using
    it in a kitchen, *ANYWHERE* in a kitchen.  I think the kinds of
    anti-waterlife things I would want in a boat paint are the kinds
    of anti me things that I would *NOT* want in a kitchen.  And if you
    ever sell, well it could be worse than having to remove all the
    asbestos in the basement.

    Re: .17
    
    	Boat paints come in different flavors.  Do not buy the boat
    *bottom* or anti-fouling type of paint.  These types contain nasty
    copper based additives to prevent algae and barnacle growth.  You
    want boat deck paint.  This only comes in high-gloss and stands
    up well to water abuse and UV.  It will probably cost you about
    3-4 times as much as "regular" paint, such as Benjamin Moore or
    Dutch Boy, etc.
    
    -al

    My kitchen counter is linoleum. I also used epoxy paint to *delay*
    replacing our 30 yr old bath tub (it required one helll of a lot
    of marginally useful hard work to prepare the tub. The tub work
    didn't work out all that well but I believe it was caused by my
    poor paint job rather than that it is intrinsically a bad idea.
    
    In each case(the counter and the tub), one "pkg" was enough. The
    pkg comes in two cans, one the pigment, the other the bonding agent.
    I don't remember the size can for sure but believe each can is a
    quart -meybe a pint-  As I remember -it was many yrs ago now- the
    purchase was $25 for the pkg of two cans when a gallon of "standard"
    paint was selling for around $10.00. 
    It is very high gloss and very smooth. Sears carries it, Spags carries
    it of course (not tooo far from the fish and tackle counter), many
    paint stores will carry it too.
    Once the two cans are mixed together the result cures very quickly.
    Make *absolutely* sure you have a gallon of the *correct* paint
    remover/thinner handy before you start the job. You need to specify
    that it will be used for epoxy. Standard paint thinner has zero
    impact on cured epoxy. I did the bath tub late
    on a Saturday afternoon and spilled some of the mixture...
    
    
    
    				good luck
    				herb
    
    p.s. sorry for the delay

    For years I have been planning to do the bathroom ceiling with epoxy
    paint as a result of the experience gained doing our counter top
    twice (at least 5 years apart). Haven't done it yet but am convinced
    it is a fine idea. Requires careful ceiling preparation (certainly
    scraping, probably sanding).  The actual
    application is quick and inexpensive. But have a good drop cloth
    and somebody to watch for splattering who is holding a rag soaked in
    the right "goop" (see previous note). Once you start don't stop
    shouldn't take more than 15 minutes or so for a bathroom ceiling.
    I plan on using a roller then throwing it away.

    			good luck
    			herb 

   My ranch has an "integral"(?) sun porch, with an open area underneath.
i plan to eventually replace the combination windows on the sun-porch with 
conventional windows, and extend the living area of the house out onto the 
sunporch area. the first thing i'd like to do is cover the underside of the 
sun porch floor joists so that there is a ceiling in the enclosed area below.
i've come up with some questions i can't answer while planning for this, and 
would appreciate some advice......


     ____________________________________
    /                                    \
   /                                      \
  /----------------------------------------\
   |            |  ___  ___  ___  ___     |
   |            | |   | |  ||   ||   |    | 
   |            | |___| |__||___||___|    | <-sunporch w/ storm/screen windows
   |            |                         |
   |____________|_________________________|
   | _________  |  ___  ||      ||       ||
   | |        | | |   | ||______||_______|| <- open porch area
   | |        | | |   | ||                |
   |_|________|_| |   | |_________________|

 
    
questions:

what sort of material would be a suitable ceiling covering? (i've considered 
using 3/8" t-111)

   when putting ceiling covering up in the open porch 
area, which now has only exposed floor joists, will i need to provide 
ventilation similar to that provided by soffit vents? This area is exposed to 
the outside at the moment, and it will be some time before i can close it in.
The previous owner of the house had put up some pink fiberglass insulation 
(paper faced), and i've noticed that the paper is decaying due to the moisture 
that collects on it when the air is damp.....  i'd like to put some sort of 
insulation before i add the ceiling covering, in hopes of keeping the floor 
warmer in the enclosed area above, but i don't want to capture the moisture 
inside. 

If insulation can be used here, which type is best?


thanks in advance for your input.....



steve 

    Moisture barrier (the paper) goes toward the HEATED side, in this
    case "up".  From your description it sounds as though the vapor
    barrier is down, which may be most of your problem.  I've heard
    that there is insulation specially designed for this particular
    siituation with some sort of reverse tabs so the vapor barrier can
    be up but you can staple it on the bottom.  I've never seen any
    or used it, but you might check around and see if you can find some.
    If you can't one alternative is to staple polyethelene
    sheets up between all the floor (ceiling from the bottom!) joists
    then use unfaced insulation, held in place with short lengths of
    coathanger wire just a bit too long to fit between the joists -
    wedge the wires in so their natural spring holds them in place.
    Or use insulation with a vapor barrier, put the vapor barrier on
    top, and hold it in with the wires the same way.  That probably
    wouldn't be quite as good a vapor barrier, but I bet it would be
    good enough.  If you are going to redo the floor up above, put down
    a sheet of polyethelene between the subfloor and the finished floor,
    and solve the vapor barrier problem that way.  
    Fiberglass ought to work just fine.  As far as what to cover it
    with, I guess that's up to you.  Vents might be a good idea - perhaps
    one of those 2" round plug vents at the ends of each between-joist
    space.
    
    Steve
    

    thanks for the advice. i think i'll go with the plastic vapor barrier
    and unfaced insulation. 
    
    
    Ske

We are building a post-and-beam home with cathedral ceilings. The post and beam
frame is covered with stress-skin panels with blueboard on the interior. The
house is now being sheetrocked (interior partitions) and the quote included
taping and a primer coat on all the walls, as well as a finish on the cathedral
ceilings which consists of a thin coat of joint compound over the entire
surface (rough finished) and then painted. 

This sounded great to us because it means we will not have to build staging or
whatever ourselves to get all the way up there and finish the ceiling ourselves
in an alternate manner, and the cost for this whole package was not very
much more than quotes for just drywall and taping of interior walls.

Now I am having second thoughts about what this will look like and wondered if
anyone knows what this "rough joint compound finish" looks like (I realize it's
probably a personal taste thing) but I would like to hear any pros or cons
anyone may have about this. 

Carole

    I've seen this inside a closet.  I think that's where it belongs.
    
    Do you have a choice about this?  Are there any exposed beams at
    the ceiling?  
    
    It's a little hard to describe what it looks like, but it's kind
    of like frosting on a cake.  It's very easy to apply and it hides
    imperfections in the ceiling.
    
    Are they covering the posts and beams with stress-skin or are the
    panels just in between the posts and beams?
    

    Our upstairs bathroom had a nagging leak that stained the
    bathroom ceiling and top of the abutting wall below it.
    The affected area is stained, is blistering and has swelled.
    The ceiling is heavily textured - it has those particles of
    plaser? bits suspended in the paint.
          
    I fixed the leak - now it's time to fix the damage.
    
    The affected area is about 8" x 6" - it seems like it is
    going to have to be replaced (versus "touched up") because
    of the blistering and swelling.
    
    I have the following questions that I hope somebody out there
    can give me soe guidance on:
    
    1. can I just cut out the affected area and secion in another
       piece of sheetrock (using mesh, joint compound, etc.)
       or does a much larger section of the ceiling have to be
       replaced (eg. are their recommended minimum sizes of
       sheetrock insertions?)?
    
    2. what's the best way to refinish the new area of ceiling
       to blend in with the rough, rocky-textured ceiling around
       it?
    
    Any tips/suggestions/ideas would be appreciated.
    
    Dick

    As far as replacing the small area of sheetrock you are in the oiece
    of cake category.
    
    You simply cut out the bad and cut a piece of new that fits and
    screw it tto a piece of stapping that is longer than the hole is
    wide, then slip it into the hole and drive a couple of screws into
    the strapping on either side of the hole.
    
    As far as the refinishing goes you're on your own from my end. No
    matter what you do or how good you are you will have a nice fresh
    spot on the ceiling that stands out like a nose on your cheek. If
    you are able to get the texture matched up pretty good then you
    might be able to disguise the fix by repainting the entire ceiling
    with a spray painter.
    
    Have a ball,
    
    -boB

    Thanks for the reply - matching the texture and color of the ceiling
    seems like it will be the biggest challenge.  Do they sell paint
    with the flecks of plaster (or, whatever it is) mixed in it?

    Do you have a choice about this?  Are there any exposed beams at
    the ceiling?  

    Are they covering the posts and beams with stress-skin or are the
    panels just in between the posts and beams?

	*** I can probably just tell them to leave the ceilings 
	*** alone and then we can finish them ourselves; however
	*** we have so much work we are doing already that it sure
	*** would be nice to let them take care of it.  Also, access
        *** to this height will be difficult.

	*** Yes, there are beams exposed every four feet.  The stress
	*** skin is put on the outside so the beams are all exposed, 
	*** sort of like this (only with the slope of the roof):
       ________________________________________________________
       ________________________________________________________
       |__|         |__|         |__|        |__|          |__|   

	So the "skip troweling" as they call it will be on the 
	surface in between the beams.

    I'd prefer not to have this in my closets, thank you. It's no secret
    why contractors recommend it. It's fast and can be applied by
    anyone who has hands. It will also hide gross surface imperfections.
    The net result is a hideous mess that requires new walls to correct.

    Has the textured ceiling in your bathroom gotten mildewed yet? 
    If you have masochistic tendancies you'll love it.
    My personal suggestion is to tear it all out and put in a smooth
    ceiling, now that you have an excuse to do it.
    "Texture" or "sand" paint should be available at any good paint
    store.  Personally I think it's an invention of the devil, put on
    earth to get us ready for hell, but maybe that's because I had to
    deal with a mildewed textured-ceiling bathroom once....
    
    Steve

    The bathroom in question is only a 1/2 bath (no tub/shower) so
    mildew would not be a problem.  The upstairs bathroom has not
    experienced the mildew problem (yet - hopefully never).  I've
    heard of those problems and share your thoughts on its likely 
    origin and intent.

    I've used textured paint in the form of a dry mix you add to
    paint after you get the right color.  You can add just enough
    to get the texture to match what's already there.
    
    Except, I agree you should tear down the whole ceiling and get
    rid of the texture garbage.
    

    Sounds like you have the same kind of ceilings I have.  I put
    6" T&G boards diagonally between the beams.    But sheetrock looks
    good there too.  But my advice is not to let them use rough
    joint compound finish.
    Who's doing this construction?  A post & beam company?
    

While we are on the subject of textured ceilings:

Our living room has a textured ceiling, and I am wondering how to go about
repainting it.  Is it ok to just paint over it with regular non-textured
white ceiling paint?
                                                  Thanks,

                                                  Joe M.

    I swear, sprayed textured ceilings are only for the convenience
    of the installing contractor.  The technique hids a multitude of
    sins and is really quick to apply.
    
    You can roll over these ceiling with ceiling paint, but... when
    I did it I found that instead of the normal roller spatter, I had
    chunks, globs, and a general mess all over the place.
    
    I had an insurance repair on a bedroom ceiling once (a mover put
    their foot through an attic floor).  The repair was done by cutting out
    a piece of ceiling that corresponded to the strapping.  A 4" joint
    compound knife was then used to scrape off the texture spray back
    another foot and a half.  The patch was screwed in, taped, j.c.'d, beveled,
    and sanded.  The contractor then sprayed the patched area.  There
    was a slight color mismatch (clean spray vs. 4 years of aging). 
    
    I had a small bath/laundry ceiling in the same building that I
    repaired myself in much the same way.  However on this one I just
    scraped the entire ceiling (no big deal, but a bit dusty), patched, 
    and rolled with regular ceiling paint.
    
    If the ceiling is stained but not soft, bubbled, or bulging (and
    the cause of the leak is fixed) use a stain killer paint first.  If
    you use latex based paint only, the stain will bleed through.
    
    ..good luck		/roger

    Isn't there a difference, however, between actual textured paint
    and the stuff the contractors spray on?  I've scraped all my
    ceilings.  But I wouldn't call what I scraped of "paint".  Elsewhere
    in this notes file I believe they've discussed this stuff, but I
    forget the name.  The best way to get this stuff off is to use 
    a plastic plant mist sprayer filled with water, a wide putty knife,
    a step ladder and plastic waste basket.  I spray about a 3X3 foot
    section of ceiling.  Then before the water has much chance to soak
    into the plasterboard I scrape the goop off, keeping the waste basket
    under the putty knife so that the goop just falls into the bucket.
    This method produces NO dust and the only mess is when I miss the
    waste basket.  I don't even bother with a drop cloth unless I'm
    working over carpeting.
    
    If you really have textured PAINT on your ceiling, you got a whole
    different problem.

    I've got what I supose is the 'skip trowel' finish in between the
    exposed beams on the ceilings and walls of my place.  The look is
    OK on the ceiling, it's rustic and matches the hand hewn beams. 
    
    The ceilings and walls are blue board which was skim-coated with
    plaster with the skip trowel finish.  I assume joint compound would
    be must softer, but the look would be the same.  
    
    The most redeeming quality of the ceiling is that it's VERY easy to
    repair and match the finish.  
    
    In some areas of the house, this finish has been painted several
    times, still retaining the texture and shadow detail.
    
    The only real negative is having the finish on walls.  It's rough
    in some areas especially if you brush against it.  Cleaning around
    wall switches and where my 4 yr old trails his hands (this weekend
    he was belly sliding in a loam pile) is a real trial.
    
    If it were my choice, skip troweled ceilings are ok (especially as
    compared with sprayed ceilings), but I'd avoid doing the walls.
    
    	/r.b.
                               

This sounds like what I have in my 150-yr old house.  The next to 
last owner before us was a builder, and I suspect he put this 
stuff on ALL the ceilings because it was easy, and he thought it 
looked "rustic" and "Early American."  It really does not go with 
my house and I would love to see it go.  But we have acres of it.

Is there any way to get rid of it?  (I have no idea what's 
underneath it, although I suspect it's old, cracked plaster 
ceilings.)

    There's some discussion of this elsewhere.  If you can scrape your
    fingernail across the surface of your ceiling and have all the
    powdery white stuff fall off, then you got an easy problem, like
    I had.  If, on the other hand, pieces of fingernail fall to the
    floor, you got a different problem.  Maybe somebody else knows how
    to fix this second problem short of tearing out the ceiling.  I
    don't.  If you have the easy first problem then see note 446.8.
    

I've got the hard stuff and it appears to have been applied with 
a shovel.

    On the issue of whether the ceiling has textured paint or something
    else.  The best way I can describe the ceiling is to imagine that
    the contractor basted cans of 2nd-quality Bacos (synthetic bacon
    bits, finely ground) with white paint - just enough paint to cover
    the red dye #2 - then loaded the mix into a spray unit, pointed
    the wand at the ceiling, stood back and let it go.
    
    This evolutionary theory could shed some new light on what many
    people believe to be the cause of mildewing ceilings.  Perhaps
    it's merely a case of fermenting Bacos??  Has anybody ever noticed
    a faint bacon-odor in their bathrooms?
    

    My duplex has sprayed ceilings, and I remodeled the bathrooms, scraping
    the sprayed garbage off the ceilings, that had been collecting mold
    when I bought the place. The texture stuff came off pretty good,
    and with a little sanding and a little touch up with joint compound
    on the seams, then sealer primer and painted it looks great.
    I did paint other texture ceilings in the house using a fussy roller,
    you have to be careful not to get the ceiling too wet or it will
    start falling off in chunks. I wish I could get ambishious enought
    to scrap it of my kitchen dining room! 
    Jean

    I talked with a part-time plasterer the other day about skimming
    over a skip-coat finish with a smooth layer of plaster.  He said
    that they could probably hit the ceiling with a bonding agent and add 
    another skim coat of plaster that was smooth.
    
    He also said that he HATED to do smooth ceilings.  All the overhead
    work was a real killer.
    
    I'm torn.  I don't want my ceilings looking like neo Costa del Sol,
    but on the other hand, the Holiday Inn look is out too.  I'll just
    live with it until whenever.
    
    BTW.  If it's still there, the Warren Tavern in Charlestown, Ma
    has plastered walls that were made to have an aged effect.  They
    hired novice plasterers to get an uneven look, added pigment to
    the plaster to give it an ivory color, and then 'scribed' cracks into 
    the walls.  
    
    
    	/rb

     Well I'll confess that I had a plasterer come in and apply textured
    ceilings throughout my home. He did it in an orderly fashion however.
    It is applied with a trowl and put on very thin (~1/8 inch) . I
    chose this because the house is old and it hides waves nicely. I
    guess it looks swirled but it's not uniform. I really don't care
    for the blown up stuff, and I'm not in to the stalagtite look, but
    this really does'nt look bad. It also costs a fortune to have a
    smooth cieling done.

    In response to .-1
    
    I was once screwed out of a fortune for smooth ceilings, actually
    it was $700 over the cost of regular sand finished ceilings. Not 
    exactly sure why they cost so much. It took two plasterers about 5 
    hours to do them. That was three coats on two ceilings ,one about 24x14
    and one 12x24. It did look awarkward but not $700 worth. The plasterer 
    admitted that they look nice but felt they were only for those who
    'didn't care how things costs'. I care how much things cost but
    still feel it was worth it.

    While the subject is hot, most of my ceilings need refinishing.
    Is it considered "slipshod or "tacky" to just nail up some new
    sheetrock over the old cracked,uneven ceilings and then paint?
    
    	Steve
    
    

       I've had people tell me that they went over an existing cieling
    with blueboard to save on a mess. It is tough to locate beams and
    ferring though. I also would'nt recommend painting over blueboard
    for a ceiling, unless it's in a closet.

    Re .13
    
    Why wouldn't you recommend painting over blueboard?
    
    

      Re: .14... why?
                        Painting a ceiling without some kind of
                  plaster on it would ( I think) look terrible!
                  Walls are'nt as noticable, But  if  you  do a
                  ceiling, your going to see every seam, nail -
                  /screw hole as soon as you turn light/lamp on.

re .15
        
    The only reason a nontextured ceiling shows flaws when you turn
    on a light is because the light wasn't available when you were
    finishing the ceiling.
    
    The best way to spot flaws while taping/jointing wallboard is to
    have a bright light source close to the surface. While working on
    a ceiling, this means that you should connect a work light to the
    ceiling fixture connection, hanging close to the ceiling. If you're
    satisfied with the finish then, you'll be even more satisfied when
    the paint is on and the real light fixture is installed. If you
    don't have the proper light to spot flaws while you're working,
    you'll usually get a big surprise the first time you flick the switch.

    BTW, this approach also works great for walls. Just keep a portable
    light close to the wall, so that the light shines at a very shallow
    angle to the wall, and the bumps and hollows will jump out at you.

    

    Thanks for suggestions.  I was beginning to feel that whatever
    we decided to do with the ceilings it wouldn't be the right thing.
    
    What we decided was to eliminate the joint-compound ceiling and
    have them tape and paint the ceiling.  Actually there is only one
    seam around the ceiling, about 2-3 feet up from the eaves.  The
    stress-skin panels were huge, so there was only this one seam across
    each panel.  As they finish it off, we will be sure to keep the
    light on the area.
    
    Thanks!
    

    About painting textured ceilings -- maybe a brush is better than
    a roller. I've used a brush to repaint a (small) textured ceiling
    and it worked beautifully.
    
    					Val

    As for painting a textured ceiling, you want to use a long hair
    roller made for just such a purpose.  A short haired roller (i.e.
    for walls, flat ceiling, etc) won't 'get down' to the base of the
    glop on the ceiling.  If it is **REALLY** textured (to the point
    where one cut a finger on or use it as a grater :-) ) you might
    have to use a brush or spray it.
    
    When I had a closet built into my garage off of my enlarged living
    room, the person who did the drywall (I did part of my basement and
    swore never again - I greatly dislike the mess and besides have other
    'fun' things to do) suggested that he put a textured finish on the
    walls and ceiling [of the closet] ostensibly to make it easier for
    me - "you won't have to paint it, it will be all done."  Wrong!
    Nothing like a whole closet full of unpainted textured drywall mud.
    Actually it was easier FOR HIM.  He didn't have to tape any of the
    joints - just covered them with a skim coat and them "textured" it. 
                                     
    -Bob
      

    G'day,
    
    	I am about to undertake the task of painting my house. However,
    some of the plaster ceilings are flaking (peeling,...whatever) and is
    severe in some cases.
    
    	Any suggestions on the best way to approach this problem?
    
    
    		paintingly yours,
    	
    			Stuart Zorbas
    			Sydney, Australia.

If you're ceilings are that bad (only you can really judge), you may 
want to simply sheetrock over them and paint the sheetrock.  If the 
current plaster is chipping out, patching would probably only fix one 
area and later others defects could appear.

-mark

    Our house is 30 years old. All of the walls and ceilings were
    plastered. Apparently as a result of settling, cracks have developed
    over time in every ceiling in the house. I have tried diligently
    to dig out the entire length of the cracks and respackle. In each
    case the cracks have reformed. In two cases we had ceilings completely
    replastered. In both these cases, cracks have formed again where
    they had been before. 
    I believe the only solution is to replace the ceilings as .1 suggested.
    Sure would like to hear some convincing counter arguments
    
    			herb

    My husband just installed a cedar tongue and groove ceiling
    in our bathroom.  The question is, should we put some sort
    of polyurethane to seal it or just to leave it alone????
    
    I don't know of anybody who has a celing like this, so I	
    thought this would be the best place to ask.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Donna

    You didn't mention if the cedar was the aromatic type but I'm going
    to assume that it isn't.
    
    I think I would give it some type water protection, polyurethane
    or equivilent.  I would be mostly afraid of the stains that would
    occur on bare wood from condensation.
    
    If you like the natural look of the wood, maybe you could consider 
    a clear, water repellant, preservative-- ala Cuprinol.
                              
    BTW, if it is the aromatic type of cedar, I wouldn't do anything
    to it.  An occasional light sanding will get rid of the water stains
    and bring back that great smell.
    
    Good luck...
    
    						--Mike

    What does T&G cedar cost?  I was thinking of doing the inside of
    my closet with it.  Is this the stuff that's real thin, like 
    1/2 inch or less?
    

	Wouldn't the ceiling warp if only one side was sealed?
        We did one side of our pine cabinets and that's what 
        happened.   I know cedar is a harder wood, so maybe
	it wouldn't.    How about an oil that will allow the
	wood to breath but also protect?

re: .2

Price ranges from $20.00 - $30.00 per box.  The board is 1/4" thick and
fairly easy to install....

    I think I'd seal it with something.  If you got a mildew infestation
    on unsealed boards you might have a problem getting rid of it.
    Since you'll be sealing the "moist" side of the boards, my guess
    is that if anything sealing them will help prevent warping...but 
    it's just a guess.

    re: .4
    > Price ranges from $20.00 - $30.00 per box.
    
    
    How many square feet is that?
    

    I'm in the process of redoing my living room. I have a 75 yr. old
    house. The problem I have is the ceilings. They have cracks in them.
    I don't want to go with the rough look. I want to keep it smooth.
    How should I hide the cracks so they don't reappear in a year.
    In the past I have tried using plaster to hide them but they come
    through in time. Should I tape the cracks. I really don't want to
    put up new sheet rock.
    
    Art
    

I can't imagine any way other than taping the cracks.  If you do this, 
you'll have to make sure to remove enough to form a trough for the tape 
and jointing compound so you'll have a level finish when done.  I've 
done this before my sanding the crack with a belt sander.  I literally 
remove the paper and some of gypsum.  Then I put in the tape (I prefer 
the mesh rather than paper) and joint away.

BUT -- wanna talk about a mess?  Start sanding and watch the dust fly!

-mark

    If you use the self_sticking mesh, and feather the joint out to
    extreme distances, you don't have to gouge a trough. Besides, if
    you gouge through the paper surface on wallboard, you're proabaly
    removing more reinforcement than the new tape is adding.
    
    I've used this method on butt (untapered) joints with great success.

    
    re:.2 and .4
    
    Watch out.  We priced some cedar clapboards recently.  The cost
    was outrageous!  Grossman's told me that there was a strike going
    on right now.

    Chances are if you live in a 75 year old house the ceiling isn't
    comprised of blueboard or sheetrock, but mohair plaster.  I've had
    the same symptoms you've had and found that you can run a can opener
    along the crack to clean it out.  Just apply joint compound (probably 
    takes about three applications due to shrinking ) to this area, sand
    it down between applications, and presto apply the paint.  I did 
    this 4 years ago to a ceiling and it looks as good as new.
    
    Good luck.

    We're not talking about cedar clapboards here.  If you want cedar
    clapboards, go to Lancaster/Sterling Lumber in Sterling, MA.
    
    I doubt that you'll find any cedar clapboards at Grossmans.
                
    Two weeks ago the price at Sterling was up to 48 cents/bd foot.
    That's a little higher than usual, but not too bad.
    
    How much is T&G cedar per bd/ft?
    

      I bought tapeless joint compound at Plywood Ranch. I used it for
    the seams on a closet I built, and for where  the  sheet-rock  met
    the cieling. I used no tape, and I have no cracks. I would imagine
    that it would work as well on other cracks. It does cost ~7  bucks
    for a gallon container, so it's not cheap but it works great!

    
    We (U.S.) are currently waging a trade war with Canada which involves
    wood products. Expect prices of cedar clapboards, shakes, etc to
    become quite unreasonable.

    Sunday's Manchester Union Leader included a flyer from Somerville
    Lumber.  Their price for 3/8" (I think) T&G cedar was $18.95 per
    17 sq ft box.  I believe each piece is a uniform length/width.

    -Mark LePage
    

re:-1

I'm a little confused about why one would want tapeless compound?  I do 
know there are concerns about paper tape trapping air under it and 
messing up the job.  That is why I bought a roll of the mesh. If I 
recall it cost around 5 or 6 dollars at Spags and I got enough to do a 
14X20 room with a 14 foot high ceiling and still had around 1/3 of a 
roll less.  Wouldn't this be a lot cheaper than spending $7 for a gallon 
of compound?

Or am I missing something?

-mark

      You are right... it is cheaper but where I  added  a  closet
    to an existing room, I did'nt want to have to tape the cieling
    or against the other walls. If I had done it that way, I would
    have had to joint compound over the tape on the walls and  the
    ceiling, hence sanding, painting etc. As I mentioned  earlier,
    it would be good for cracks because you would'nt have to  tape
    the crack and make it look so obvious.

    I'm in the final stages of finishing off the lower level of my
    split entry, and am having some difficulty with the finish work
    on the ceiling.
    
    Specifically, I've decided to texture paint the ceiling. (No
    comments from the peanut gallery!!)  A drop ceiling is out, due
    to clearance constraints, so I've installed sheetrock.  I've 
    primed the surface, and am ready to apply the texture.  Now
    comes the problem:  as I am applying the paint, the texture stuff
    accumulates at the edges of the roller - ridges.  Now, ridges are
    fine for potato chips, but not for my ceiling, thank you.
    
    Any suggestions?  Thinning the texture paint?  Drop back 5 and punt?
    
    - John

    You probably shouldn't be going in the same direction when painting
    a ceiling.  Try going in a north to south direction, then east to
    west.
    
    Also, are you using a roller for texture paint?  They're quite a
    bit different than a regular roller.
    
    					Steve

    A friend of mine show me this, and its kinda neet.
    
    First, take a 5 gallon container of joint compount.  Remove about 2 1/2
    gallons and add white paint.  Then add vermiculite.  Mix this up.
    
    He applies it with a trowel, and uses a 4" paint brush to add swirls.
    Once the surface is dry, take a broom and sweep it.
    
    The result is a plaster-like textured surface.
    
    Phil

    
    I guess a little more explanation is needed:
    
    I picked up some "texture paint" at Somerville Lumber - this stuff
    is a fairly thick concoction, with some sort of aggregate material
    added in.  The instructions on the bucket call for using a 1/2 inch
    nap roller (by the way, I did try the loop-nap roller, to no avail)
    to apply the stuff.
    
    The indicated coverage for a 2-gallon bucket is 120 sq ft +/-, and
    I did half of a 24x14 ceiling with half a bucket!  It seems that
    the material is too thick, so that it won't stay on the roller long
    enough for me to transfer it to the ceiling surface.

    I suppose, worst case, I'm out 18 bucks (plus whatever it costs
    to get some other material for the surface) - but I'd like to try
    using this stuff.
    
    Any more suggestions?
    
    Thanks,
    
    - John    

    BY ANY CHANCE IS YOUR DOWNSTAIRS HEATED OR IS IT COLD.  IF COLD,
    THAT MAY BE WHATS MAKING YOUR PAINT ACT FUNNY.
    
    HOPE THIS HELPS
    BRUCE
    

    
    After creating nothing but a terrible mess with texture paint, I
    finally did all of my upstairs with sand paint (Sears brand). It
    is not as thick as texture paint, so the texture is not as deep,
    but it did hide some minor mistakes quite nicely. The roller for
    this stuff does not look like a shag rug, but has lots of tiny bristles
    that stick straight out (also by Sears).
    

    Go to Taylor rental (or even better, Rheault in Leominster) an rent
    a compressor, hopper gun, 1/2" drill and mixer drill attchment.  This
    should set you back about $25-$50.  Then buy a 40lb bag or two of
    textured ceiling spray.  This contains mostly vermiculite and some
    other powder that disolves in the 5 gal of water that you must add.
    For good measure, substitute a gallon of paint for one of the gallons
    of water.  Then, scoop the goop into the hopper gun and let loose.
    You will find tht it is the easiest job tht you have attempted to
    date.
    
    I finished my entire basement myself and was ready to sub this
    task out to a pro.  With a little caoxing from a friend, I tried
    it myself.  Believe me, it is so simple, it is impossible to goof
    up.  I taped plastic all around the room to simplify cleanup and
    I recommend that you do this.  The pros just spray but it is worth
    the extra time and expense to put up the plastic.
    
    I did two rooms plus a hallway in less than 4 hours.  Most of the
    time was taping the plastic to the walls.
    
    Give me a call if you want to be talked through this.  It takes
    me too long to type. (dtn 225 6625)
    
    Jim Pappas

    
    In trying to keep this in the public arena...
    
    I want to 'popcorn' my family room as well...
    
    I have the compressor, the hopper gun (I think? - can I use a sand
    blaster gun? or do I need a real hopper gun?), and all the rest.
    
    Is it really that easy?  Just mix and spray?
    
    						.dave.
    

    
    re .4 - the paint had sat in some colder weather.  I had kept it in
    the garage for a while, but I brought it into the near-finished room
    a couple of days before starting.  It sat about 8 feet from a fired-up
    woodstove, so I daresay it had warmed up.  Could the stay in the
    garage have affected it?
    
    re .6 - Ah, yes, the popcorn method.  I'd thought of it, but figured
    I could get away with this stuff.  <deep sigh>
    
    
    Hey, Dave - can I borrow your equipment?? (-:
    
    - John

    
    got a 15 amp 220 line?

    re .8
    
    If the paint had a chance to freeze while it was in the garage,
    it's probably garbage now, even warmed up (kinda like trying to
    uncurdle cottage cheese).

    I was at Taylor's in Westboro this weekend renting something else,
    and since I'm considering this same projec{, I asked about their
    prices for the equipment:
    
    1 hp compressor	$26/day
    Spray Gun		$10/day
    cleaning charge	$5/day waived if you cl{an it good enough.
    
    I have a brochure on the equipment, which includes a list of the
    brand names of materials it willhandle - anyone wanting a copy just
    send me mail (but better do it soon{ vacation time is comiing).
    
    BTW, rather than find the old note which talked about using stud
    guns to lay strapping for floor, here is an addendum to that subject:
    
    I forgot to mention that if you are going to rent one of the Remington
    Powder Actuated Stud Guns, you must have a valid FID (Firearms
    Identification card).  You get this at your local police department
    In Shrewsbury all I did was fill out a form.  They do some kind
   {of checking on you (bad news Arlo Guthrie) and you can get the card
    in a week.  They give you an acknowledgement of the application
    - and Taylor's actually accepted that for the FID card.  Taylor's
    is the only place sticky about obeying the law - neither Somerville
    nor Spags ever asked for it when I bought charges.
    -reed
    

    If it was latex paint and it froze, you are almost certainly out
    of luck.  Freezing breaks the emulsion of water and pigment, and 
    as far as I know there is no way to re-mix it satisfactorily.

    I used the originally mentioned texture paint on a closet in my
    house. The area is mostly sloped ceiling so it had to hold well.
    Worked fine with a roller. I did thin it with water and put
    it on in two coats though. Two years later it still looks fine.
    
    						Mark

    
    Whew!  I'm safe!
    
    Over the weekend, I tried a little something:  knowing that I could
    clean up the roller with water, I figured - "hey, this is a rough
    room, I'll try thinning the paint with a tad of water..."
    
    Worked like a charm.  I added about a cup and a half of water to
    a two-gallon bucket of ceiling texture, and voila!  I actually got
    the stuff to apply and look reasonable!
    
    I sincerely doubt that the garage got cold enough to freeze (darn
    close, though...), but perhaps _approaching_ freezing affected the
    stuff.
    
    Anyway, thanks to all forthe suggestions (I know what to do next
    time.).
    
    P.S. - re .9:  220, 221 - whatever it takes.  (-:

    Just found this notes conference.  One more to get me into trouble
    :-)   Anyway...
    
    I'm in the process of adding a family room, with a spa, to our house.
    Because of the moisture that the spa will generate when the cover
    is off, I elected to do the interior of the room with T&G cedar.
    
    The cedar I got was red(wood) cedar, 1x6 T&G.  I got it for $.83
    a bd-ft.  Most places I have seen carry it for between $.90 and
    $1.00 a bd-ft.  BTW, I got my cedar tat East Coast Lumber in East
    Hampstead, NH.
    
    - Mark

    Being really behind in my noting I have just seen this topic.
    Reguarding the first question on sealing... I used "Watco" oil sealer
    for a screened in porch ceiling.  It looks real good. Also easy
    to apply.  I like it much better than poly, at least for this
    application. If you haven't done the ceiling yet and are interested
    I can get the can out of the cellar and gibe you a more complete
    name of the product.
    

     I bought a home in Nashua about 6 months ago, when looking it over
    I noticed two identical stains on the first floor bathroom ceiling
    which is below the upsatirs bathroom. I asked the home inspector
    what they might be and he really didnm't know. The stains have not
    grown since I purchased the house, however this weekend I notices
    another stain in a different area. I can't recall if this stain
    was also there then. I'm concerned and would like to have it checked
    out but don't want to pay big $$ if it'd nothing really bad. Does
    anyone have any advise or know of someone who could come and take
    a peak to see what it may be? I don't see any water leaking in the
    upstairs bath...    Thanks

    Lots of things could cause the stains.  What color are they?  Is
    there a shower in the first floor bath?  Do the stains feel wet
    (is the sheeetrock soft)?  Which raises another question - what's
    the ceiling material.
    
    It could well be that the previous owner had a problem, corrected
    it, simply painted over the spots, and now they are bleeding through.
    

    The stains are light brown, there is no shower in the first floor
    bath, the stains don't feel wet but I was able to chip some plaste
    away. The ceiling material sheet rock I believe with a coat of plaster
    over it.. a swirl type look. 
    
    
    

    With no apparent moisture from either above or below and the light
    brown stains, I'd suspect the problem is minor.  Might just be the
    nails or screws have bled through (especially if the spots are about
    16" o.c.).  My fix would be to go to the hardware store and get
    a small can of KILZ (I think that's the spelling), brush or roll
    it on, and see what happens.
    
    Without going into too many details, I once painted a smoke blackened
    masonary wall with KILZ; one coat made a black wall sort of white,
    the second coat and you'd never know...
    

    I'll give it a try!! thanks...

    Would a spritzing of bleach get rid of the light brown spots?
    
    -al

    Don't recommend bleaching.  My experience has shown that the brown
    stain will keep coming through and attempts to bleach just re-wet
    a material that doesn't like to be wet in the first place.  The
    more you wet it the weaker it gets.  The best technique I know of
    is to seal it with a shellac or varnish like (TM ZAR ??) to stop
    any further bleeding.  Then a coat of paint to match the rest of
    the ceiling or just re-paint the entire ceiling.
    
    As to the cause...leaky upstairs toilet that now has a new
    ring ??  Wouldn't happen to be circular or arc-like stains.  The
    stains on parts of the circumference of a circle ??

I agree with .5 about bleach.  I have a plaster ceiling that had a shower 
leak over it.  I didn't want to paint it because I like the look of the raw
plaster.  A healthy coating of bleach via a plant sprayer did the trick.  Only
problem was I forgot what goes up comes down and I wound up bleaching part of
a chair!

-mark

    
    I had a similiar type of stain, which was, I believe, caused by
    the water pipes sweating in the summer. The ceiling was a different
    material, much more porous. I put insullation around them and the
    stain stopped growing.

    Presumably, the 1st floor bath is on an outside wall?
    Have you excluded ice dams?

    re 446.8
    
    I tried your suggestion last night.  I sprayed the ceiling with
    a water bottle and waited about a minute, then stated scrapping
    with a 3 to 4 inch putty knife.  It worked great.  It got the ceiling
    down to a nice smooth surface and maybe won't even need a final
    light sanding.
    
    My original intent was to use a sander from start to finish.  I
    just got through doing this on my living room walls where I had
    patched with plaster.  What a mess.
    
    Thanks for the suggestion and would recommend it to anyone before
    attempting to sand.
    
    
    Denise
                                       

     The house I recently purchased has the cellar ceiling done over
    in 6" by 6" ceiling tiles. They appear to be compressed "cardboard"
    material. Anyway, I would like to repaint this ceiling. Does anyone
    have any experence redoing this type of ceiling. It appears that
    paint may just absorb into these tiles.
    
    	Questions:
    
    	- Do I need a primer? Laytex or enamel?
    	- Better to roll it or spray it ?
    	- Do I need some type of sealer?
    
    	Any help on this is appreciated.
    
                                     Rick LaBak
    
    I believe these tiles are about 35 years old.
    

    I have these things in my basement too.  I'm considering tearing them
    out to do some rewiring and replacing them with something removable.
    
    As for painting them, after 35 years I'd be worried about getting
    a clean enough surface for the paint to adhere to.  Maybe vacuuming
    and wiping with a damp sponge?  I have seen them painted.  Sprayers
    indoors may be a bit messy.  Never used one, so that's just a guess.
    You could paint the seams with a brush and then roll the main areas.
    Maybe a primer such as BIN would be the best thing to use to seal
    and hide any stains.
    
    Phil

    
    Take precaution when you're painting old ceilings.  Painters used
    to use Calcemine (white wash) to paint ceilings and if you put an
    oil based paint over it, the paint will fall off in globs after
    a few hours.  Be safe and use a latex based paint.
    
    -Ted Salem

    
    
    	My father has that type of ceiling in his cellar and he paints
    it about every 5 years with white latex paint. It looks great !
    
    	-Steve-
    

RE:  .2


You've got it backwards.  Calcimine strips off with water.  Latex paint
over calcimine is a no-no..   Oil over calcimine is OK.

See note 1052.

...bill

     re: .4  DON'T use ANY paint over calcimine. If you use latex over
    calcimine, it will peel off right after you put it on. If you use
    oil paint over calcimine, it can peel off any time it gets water
    on it, such as when you try to wash it or if you strip wallpaper
    nearby. 
      Calcimine is not hard to wash off at all. A little messy maybe
    but not hard.
    
    					Kenny

    
RE: .4
    
    Oops.. You're right.  Glad I didn't paint any old ceilings!
    
    -Ted
    

    I need to have some ceilings taken down and replaced and
    we've decided to have somebody come in and do it as long
    as the cost doesn't break us.  Does anybody have any
    recommendations?  And how about cost?  It's all horsehair
    and after gutting three rooms of the stuff I never want
    to touch it again.  The house is in Sterling, MA (Worcester,
    Fitchburg, Leomister area).
    
    thanks.
    -k
    

You might want to try the following companies in Worcester for
Plastering/Wallboarding

	B&B Plastering		C&S Plastering
                                112 Paine St.
				Worcester,Mass.

Sorry I don't have the phone numbers, they should be in the Worcester
phone book.  They are both pretty good, we went with C&S to have a
few ceilings done.   Price varies from $300 - $600 for a 12x12 room
depending on how much work is done by yourself.


					Joef

Yeah, I have a suggestion.  Don't take down the old ceiling.
Put up the new ceiling over the old.  

1.)  Never do irreversible things in an old house.  Putting up a new
     ceiling is reversible.

2.)  It's simpler, cheaper, looks the same.  

    
    	If you hire someone to put up a new ceiling they most likely
    will put the sheetrock up over the existing ceiling.  They will
    first punch holes to locate the stringers, then just screw it up.
    	One option would be to do that yourself.  It won't be very messy
    just good hard work.  You could hang the 'rock yourself and hire
    a plasterer if you want a great looking ceiling.  Keep in mind that
    you don't have to be as careful hanging the 'rock if you get it
    plastered.  It is the tape route that requires care.
    	A personal opinion....Don't put up a cardboard hanging ceiling!!
    I think they look horrible!!  Yes it is cheap and easy, but it looks
    that way.  I think I'd rip it all out and start from scratch, but
    then again I'm a little strange.
    
    					=Ralph=
    
    		(one room ripped out and redone, five to go)
    

    Nope, I want the old ones down, for a couple reasons.  One
    is that my ceilings are already low enough as it is and most
    all the trim around the doors and windows go right to the
    ceiling.  There are rooms where this has been done in the past
    and half my window trim is covered.  Another reason other is
    that there is so much cover up already done in the house (that
    has taken us hours to undo) that we have this real problem about
    adding to it.  Another thing is that the old ceiling tends to
    crumble on top of the new ceiling and, at least in one room where
    this has been done, the new ceiling isn't bearing the weight well
    on the seams.  We also plan to put in new wiring when the ceilings
    are down.
    
    So...I want someone else to come in and deal with the mess (20
    feet up over a staircase in one place) and take the stuff down
    and put either drywall or blueboard up.  I realize that we could
    do it ourselves but, unfortunately, we've about hit the burnout
    stage on working with this stuff.  We're in the middle of about
    a dozen "projects" (we've been working in panic mode fixing things
    that couldn't wait) and since we've decided to get some help
    finishing some stuff off, the least favorite goes to the hired
    help.
    
    It's an idea that we thought of and decided against.  Thanks anyway.

    Re: .2
    I don't see how putting a new ceiling over an old one can be "reversible",
    unless you have some magic way to hold up the new one that doesn't
    involve drilling/nailing/screwing/gluing through/into/on the old
    one.  
    Besides, what's the point?  I can see preserving fine old woodwork,
    but plaster is plaster is plaster.  

    After a big rain I noticed an approximately 1" x 1" discoloration
    on one place on the ceiling.  What could this mean?
    

"Discoloration", eh?  Is it wet at all?

What's above the spot - the second floor?  attic?  flat roof?

Has somebody been squashing spiders on your ceiling?  :-)

    There is no visible water on the ceiling, but the spot is cooler
    than the surrounding area so I believe it is moist.  Above the
    ceiling is the attic.
    

	At the risk of stating the obvious....

	Maybe you have a leak and water came in during the rain.
	The best way to tell is to go into the attic and look 
	on the floor in the area of the spot.  Usually nail/screw holes are
	the first place for water to come through.  Then look up for
	any obvious potential sources of leaks.  Common ones are chimney
	flashing, vents, etc.  assuming the shingles are in reasonable shape.

    This is a house I recently bought.  The roof is one year old, so
    I doubt the problem is with the shingles.  I hate going up in the
    attic; it has the "loose fill" type of insulation.  I guess I'll
    wear a dust mask.  Because of the insulation I don't think I'll
    be able to see the attic floor.  Maybe the insulation is damp
    from a roof leak and is retaining the water and so just a little
    bit oozed onto the ceiling beneath.
    
    

>    This is a house I recently bought.  The roof is one year old, so
>    I doubt the problem is with the shingles.  I hate going up in the
>    attic; it has the "loose fill" type of insulation.  I guess I'll
>    wear a dust mask.  Because of the insulation I don't think I'll
>    be able to see the attic floor.  Maybe the insulation is damp
>    from a roof leak and is retaining the water and so just a little
>    bit oozed onto the ceiling beneath.
    
correct - except enough oozed onto the ceiling beneath to soak through 
the ceiling -  

I know its no fun - but it would be a good idea to go into the attic 
and find/fix the leak.  If it continues, it will eventually rot a hole 
right through your ceiling board.

After you fix it, make sure you spray some sealer over the stain
before repainting.

    I had the same problem.  I have the gray blown in insulation in
    the attic.  It makes it real easy to find leaks.  Look directly
    above the black spot of insulation.  This was a brand new house,
    of course.  Builders don't care much when they can't build houses
    fast enough.  I expect with the current market some of them will
    get caught holding the bag.  I can think of one to whom I'd like 
    to see it happen.   {:-)
    
    I had to climb up on the roof and squeeze silicone caulking in around
    the roof vent.  Damn near killed myself on that steep roof.  Thank
    god for toilet vent pipes.

    Presumably the insulation is cellulose - not terribly toxic or dusty.
    Make sure you walk (crawl) (staying) on the joists.
    
    If it is cellulose (grey chewed up paper appearance) it is not
    irritating like fiberglas.
    
    Rich

	Could anyone tell me advantage of have smooth ceiling verse rough
	ceiling and which one is more expensive?

	Thanks.

    
    	I think the biggest drawback to a rough ceiling is when you
    have to repair something. It's almost impossible to hide the repair
    marks as you can't feather the new edges into the old.
    
    	-Steve-
    

      I have recently sheetrocked two small bedrooms, and I am now ready
    to paint the ceiling and the walls. I want to put a textured ceiling
    in both rooms.
    
      My questions are, Do I paint the textured ceiling or the walls
    first? and how do you paint the edges of the ceiling to have it
    come out even and not get all over the walls?
    
    Any advice would be appreciated.

    It depends on HOW textured.  If it's the pretty, swirled stuff, .1's right,
it's nearly impossible to patch.  If it's a really rough, stalagtite-type of
finish, I think a repair would be easier than on a smooth ceiling - no
feathering is required, just dab on the plaster/compound.  Even a rolled,
sand-texture finish shouldn't be all that hard to patch.

    I guess I'd prefer smooth only because there's at least a potential for
cleaning a spot or stain without resorting to repainting/refinishing.

One other consideration:

A smooth ceiling will show any tiny cracks caused by the house settling
much more than the rough.

One observation: It is not hard to patch the swirled, rough plaster,
                 it just takes skill (if you do it) or money if you
                 hire someone to do it. [I paid once and learned enough
                 to do it myself afterwards!]

I'd go with the rough again, if I had a choice on the next house.

VCS

    I have never had much luck with painting textured ceilings, they
    never look that even.  A friend of mine rented a compressor and
    spay gun designed to spray ceilings and they came out great.  Most
    rental places have the equipment, he got his in the Lowell area.
    The small amount of spray he got on the walls brushed off when it
    was dry, so I would do the ceilings first.
    

    Paint the ceiling first.  What are you going to use to get a textured
    ceiling...sand paint??  If you use this you will be applying it
    with a roller....a long nap one.  Do the edges first with a smaller
    roller, then do the rest of the ceiling.
    Ric
    

And yet two more:

1. It's been mentioned many times in this conference that the rough texture 
   can be very bad news in damp places such as bathrooms.  Once mildew gets 
   started in all those nooks and crannies, it's nearly impossible to kill it.

2. If you have any interest in an authentic look for an older house, smooth 
   is the _only_ way to go.

    Spray paint indoors?!?  Not me!  I tried it once...paint was
    everywhere!
    Re: painting walls or ceiling first, do the ceiling first, then
    the walls, and ever-so-slightly get the wall paint onto the
    ceiling, just enough that you get the wall 100% painted.  Because
    of the way the sight lines are, you'll never notice the wall
    paint on the ceiling (you'd have to lie down on the floor a foot
    from the wall and look up), but you'll notice any little waver
    of paint from the ceiling onto the wall.

    A couple of ideas:
    
    	1)  My mother (when I was too young to do ceiling work :-) did
    	    a textured ceiling by getting a thick paint and applying
    	    it with a sponge.  Just dip one side of the sponge in the
    	    paint and press it against the ceiling.  It still looks
    	    pretty good.
    
    	2)  If you like the "neat swirlies" on your ceiling, I think they
    	    do it by rolling on the sand paint and then swirling it
    	    with a wisk broom.  I expect it takes a little practice.
    
    Stan

	I had an estimate done last week for my bathroom.  I asked for
	a smooth ceiling and he told me it would be $125.00 more to
	do it that way.  The reason: it's more work to put in a smooth
	ceiling.   At that price, I'll stick with the rough.

	- Linda

>        Spray paint indoors?!?  Not me!  I tried it once...paint was
>    everywhere!

    I sprayed stain indoors once.  Everything in my house is tinted
    brown now.  I wore a mask but was still out sick for 2 days following that.
    I even called the Poison Control Center in Boston since I thought
    I was about to die.  They looked up "Minwax" on their computer and
    it wasn't listed so they told me it must have been from something
    else.

>                        They looked up "Minwax" on their computer and
>    it wasn't listed so they told me it must have been from something
>    else.

Maybe you should have told them what color it was.  

					>>>==>PStJTT

    
    The ceilings of my 1890's house were redone with the stalagtites,
    and it makes me nauseous!  If you have an older home, I say go
    with what is authentic.  The neighbors next door to me had all
    their ceilings redone professionally (blueboard with skim coat
    plaster), and it looks wonderful (they were happy to give me a
    tour). They have a 200 year old colonial with Victorian additions.
    Sounds strange, but it was one of those teeny houses that grew,
    like so many on the block. 
    
    I've seem modern homes with the swirls (not stalagtites), and
    they look quite nice.
    
    -tm
    

    re: My new dormer: My downstairs is the swirl-pattern (popular
    for 30-40 yr. old houses) which has a small patch in the dining
    room (corner, T.G.) which, to me sticks out like s sore thumb. 
    So I'm sure it's a bitch to patch.  The old upstairs was a DIY
    smooth ceiling (prev. owner) which showed all defects.  The new
    is rough.  I thought it was too rough, with the aforementioned nooks
    & crannies, but when I painted it the surface tended to smooth out.
    I paid particular attention to filling those Ns & Cs not so much
    for creepy critters but the shadows were eye-catching.  Now I don't
    even notice the ceiling, and I believe the texture helps diffuse
    the light--no dark corners in any of the upstairs rooms.
    
    Oh, yes: I agree about the bathroom ceilings, but if you slop the
    ol' ceiling paint on it and use your bathroom vent fan during
    bathing I would think the M & Ms would have tough going finding
    a foot-hold.   Tylex, by the way, is hell on mould & mildew.  The
    downstairs bathroom fan was busted (since replaced) and the summer
    heat caused significant growth.  I found if I used straight Tylex
    on a damp sponge (no rinse) the black turned white and the residual
    Tylex prevented new growth.  (Read the label carefully.)
    
    							Don

    I just painted my new ceiling.  Used a brush around the edges (walls,
    doors, etc.) and a dripless roller (which, when I got the hang of
    it, worked!).  Except for the spot I missed in the hall, it came
    out great!  Be sure to use good ceiling paint.  The ceiling has
    a rough surface, which is more forgiving, but I also successfully
    did the walls of the closets.                               
    
    							Don

    
    
    
    	Smooth ceilings are $0.05 to $0.10 per square foot more
    	expensive than textured celings.  I personnally perfer the
    	smooth ceilings, it makes the room look bigger.  A smooth
    	finish can look extremly attractive if done properly.
    
    	You can also have then done in a sand paint, which is
    	somewhere in between smooth and textured.  Not nearly
    	as many, or as pronounced nooks & crannies, and hides
    	any imperfections nicely.
    
    
    	Tony Grise
    

    Used a brush around the edges !!! This is the 20th century !! The
    best investment you could ever make is to get one of those SureLine
    pad edgers with the wheels on it. They cost around $2.50 and you
    can edge around a room in about 5 minutes. I wouldn't paint without
    one.
    
    Tim
    

    Mostly a matter of taste.  Personally, I favor smooth ceilings.
    All too often, textured ceilings seem to be a cover-up for
    shoddy and/or incompetent workmanship, foisted off on homeowners
    as more "stylish".  I'm not impressed.  

    
    One thing not pointed out yet is that a smoothe ceiling is a lot
    easier to clean. 
    
    Mike

    
    Smooth ceilings are BORING! Especially in large rooms with cathederal
    ceilings, skylights etc. 

Smooth ceiling rooms are brighter... the ceiling is more reflective.
Rough ceilings, because of the texture, are darker.

I believe that neither one is better (except in damp areas), but each
gives its own disctinctive mood.  In my cathedral ceiling family room,
I have lighting that reflects off the ceiling, so I choose to pay extra
for the smooth ceiling to better reflect light... (the room relies on
reflected light rather than direct lighting). The full baths also have
smooth, but the 1/2 bath and all other rooms have one form or another
of rough texture.

    
    
    I dont like most textured finishes that are made for the DIY'er.
    If I'm doing it my self it gets the 'seemed and taped' smooth finish.
    If I call in a plasterer, I like the sand mix plaster done
    in random swirls.              
    

As usual, I fear we may not be making fair comparisons.  First of all one needs
to consider what the ceiling is made of.  If it's sheetrock and jointing 
compound, you're much better off with a textured look since it's almost 
impossible to get a perfectly smooth finish.  By using the texture, all the
nail heads and seams magically disappear.

As for a smooth ceiling, I think you almost have to go with skim coat to ensure
the smooth look.

Beyond that, it's totally personal.

-mark

    I am rather surprised to hear all this talk about how impossible
    it is to get a smooth finish on a drywall ceiling. I have put up
    several ceilings of this type and have never had a job turn out
    unacceptable. Maybe I don't have the same standards as you folks
    for smooth ceilings. I will grant that if you shine a strong light
    at a small angle and look real close you could find the seams, but,
    in normal light, with the shadows that that implies, they are totally
    un-noticeable. Personally I think textured ceilings look terrible
    and cheap (what are they trying to hide). It doesn't fit in with
    my design philosophy that a ceiling should be an architectural
    focal point in the type of houses we live in which is what I feel
    a textured ceiling is trying to become.
    
    Alan

  Alan beat me to it but I'll post this anyway...

  Um.  Mark, speaking of unfair comparisons, I think you are comparing a
  do-it-yourself sheetrock job with a professionally-done skimcoat job.

  Sheetrock has been around for quite awhile and I really don't think it
  is impossible -- or even that difficult -- to get a nice smooth
  sheetrock ceiling, especially if it is done by a professional.  It does
  require quite a bit of practice to do a nice job of taping and sanding.
  And it is a real pain to work over your head as you have to do with a
  ceiling (the pros do it on stilts and, yes, they do fall off them every
  once in awhile).  For these reasons, I don't consider ceiling sheetrock a
  reasonable do-it-yourself job. (And of course nail heads aren't a
  problem because we are now in the 1980s and drywall screws have been
  invented.) 

  From what I have heard and seen, skimcoat does a beautiful job.  However,
  it is more expensive, many contractors are just now learning how to
  do it, so it's hard to find a contractor, and it generates a lot more
  crud to clean up (this one could be caused by the general lack of expertise).
  I imagine that becoming proficient at skimcoat is at least as hard as
  becoming proficient at sheetrocking (probably more so, since skimcoat
  requires plastering skills, and plastering went away because it was
  easier/cheaper to do sheetrock).  So, if you want a smooth ceiling, you'll
  want a professional to do it anyway...

  I suspect that the textured look was invented and pushed by contractors
  because it takes less time and less skill to do it -- therefore it is
  cheaper.  However, if you like the look and you can live with the
  drawbacks (mostly the difficulty of cleaning and painting it), that's
  terrific. It means that you can do the job yourself (and do it just
  as well as the pros) and save big bucks in the process. 

  JP

    .16 should read " ...SHOULDN'T be an architectural focal point."
    
    Actually, while I was a professional carpenter, I would never have
    passed myself off as a professional drywall mechanic. I hate taping,
    but, if you take your time and do it right it really isn't that
    tough. Granted working over your head is a bitch, but, I never have
    figured out how to do a ceiling any other way (turn the house over?)
    
    The most important points in doing a good drywall job on a ceiling
    are:
    
    	1) Use sheetrock that goes all the way across the room. You
    	   cannot, no matter who you are, get a good joint end to end.

       	2) Use at least 3 ( 4 is better ) coats of compound, each one
    	   wider than the one before. The final width of a joint should
    	   be at least 10 inches.
    	   If you have a joint that is more than 1/4" wide, put in a
    	   filler coat of compound and let it dry BEFORE you put your 
    	   tape on. Else, the compound will shrink out from under the
    	   tape and leave a bubble.
    	   
        3) Use a damp, firm sponge to smooth the compound.
    	   Sand as a last resort, and have a vaccuum handy.
    
    	4) Dimple the nail heads or screws, final compound should be
    	   a good 4 to 6 inches around.
    
    	5) A good coat of a high quality primer followed by two coats
    	   of good ceiling paint, and your done.

    You'll notice that by the time you get all that compound around
    the nails and joints, you damn near have a skim coat.
    Some pros I've seen actually grind their large knives slightly
    concave to eliminate the sanding of the final coat, instant
    feathering. These folks also get LOTS of practice.
    
        Alan
    
    PS If you like this sort of work, I can offer some free enjoyment
    							;^)

    
    Thanks for all the responses, I know now that I will do the ceiling
    first, and I will further investigate the different methods of applying
    the textured paint.

    
    For installing and taping sheetrock on ceilings take two empty joint
   compound buckets turn them upside down and make a few holes in the
   bottom and tie them to your feet. It's a lot easier than using stilts!

   
   Jim 

    re. .19...using buckets for stilts...
    	Your "old house" must have lower ceilings than my "old house"
    or....just maybe you are a *lot* taller than I am.  -) -) -)
    Ric

     I'm 5'10" and it works good on 8 foot celings. If you have say 10
    foot ceilings maybe you could stack up buckets.....


 Jim .-)

back to the original subject...

I pointed out that it's damn near impossible to hide taping marks on a smooth
ceiling and I'll stand by that statement.  However, some tapers are obviously
better than others and I'm sure the experts can indeed do it.  Another factor is
if the ceiling is large or small, flat or cathedral.  A cathedral ceiling shows
every little imperfection as the light reflects off it.

btw - take a look around at virtually any wall in DEC and I bet you'll see tape
	marks.  You may have to look at them sideways or only when the sunlight
	is reflecting just so, but they're there - and that's my point.

-mark

    As was mentioned earlier, too, some people are pickier then others.
    For me, I would rather have a smooth ceiling that "if the sun was
    just so, and you looked real close at the right angle, you could
    see the tape joints", then a ceiling that looked like my 6 year
    old ran amok with the joint compound, from any angle, in any light
    at any time.
    
    Different stokes for different folks.
    
    Alan

re:-1

if you're coming away thinking I'm in favor of rough ceiling because it's too
damn hard to get a good smooth one, you're wrong.  I too prefer smooth to rough.
I was just trying to point out that it doesn't come easy.

-mark

    I have textured ceilings in all my rooms. The first time I painted
    the house, I used a good grade roller with two coats. Still didn't
    look right. This time around, I tried a Wagner power painter. What
    a difference. I did two coats again and it came out perfect! not
    a line to be seen. I always tape up a room before I start anyways
    with templates the size of the windows and doors that are reuseable.
    I then put down heavy plastic drop cloths for the hardwood floors.
    I thin the ceiling paint according to the sprayer's specs. As for
    me, I wear all the grubbiest clothes I can find. I put plastic bags
    over my shoes and hold them up with rubber bands. I then put a
    a painter's hat on and a pair of old glasses in addition to a
    mask from the hardware store. 
    
    My technique is to do 4 foot paths accross the room in a circluar
    motion, and overlay each about 6 inches. When dry (about 30 mins), 
    do the same except at a 90 degree angle to the first time.
    
    Then I clean out the sprayer, pull the plastic drop cloths and
    clean the floor with a sponge and warm water where any sprayover
    has occurred. The results are a perfectly blended ceiling. I do
    not use the sprayer on the walls as it never works as well as
    a good roller.                                           
                                                   
    I can remember taking 2 1/2 days to put two coats of ceiling paint
    on a catherial ceiling in a split level using planks and an 8 ft
    extention handle. What a hassle and pain in my back. I get my money
    out of that spray just on ceilings.
    
    john
    I use latex ceiling paint from Spags of course!
    
    Yes it takes time, but the results are worth it the next morning
    when the sun comes streaming in on those fresh white ceilings!

    We have swirled textured ceilings all over our first floor,
    and we would like to replace them this year with smooth ceilings.

    I am hoping that there is some way to chip the old ceiling stuff
    off the wallboard behind it.  Is there?
    
    Or do we (shudder) have to take down all the old ceiling wallboard
    (with the textured glop) and put up fresh wallboarding, essentially
    putting up new ceilings from scratch?
    
    
    jdr

    re: .25
    I seriously doubt if you can get the old stuff off without ruining
    the board under it.
    You MIGHT be able to get a plasterer to put a coat of plaster over
    the whole thing, but he probably wouldn't like the idea much.  Worth
    checking into, though.
    
    I suspect the only way to do a decent job of it is tear it down.

    Another option might be to put up blueboard over the old ceiling,
    and have a plasterer put a skim coat over that (or do drywall,
    if you prefer).  However, if you're going to all that trouble you
    may as well go the extra mile and tear the old one down; if you
    do the work of tearing it down the job won't cost any more, except 
    possible rental for a dumpster to get rid of it.
    
    And tearing down a ceiling IS a pretty horrendous mess, but so is 
    putting up a new ceiling.

    
    
    	I just finished sheet rocking my dinning room walls and ceiling
    over. The ceiling had 2 3/8" sheets on it with a skim coat over
    the last one. If a pipe didn't break in my upstairs bathroom the
    ceiling wood still be there. It was pretty easy to give the ceiling
    a few taps with the hammer so I could get a good grip on it. Then
    I started pulling easy and here it came, no wait I'll just let this
    piece go down real easy. The sheet rock heard this and said "Get
    out of the way dummy I weigh about a million pounds". Each piece
    that came down came crashing down and looked like a nuclear bomb
    kicking up dust ! The whole job of taking it down took about 1/2
    hour for a 10x10 room but the cleanup took about 5 hours.
    
    	-Steve-
    

I currently have ceiling with swirls in them and when I break out the wall 
between the house and the addition, I want to blend the ceilings together.
The existing ceiling is a skin coat and the key here is it's never been
painted so it's really porous.  I'm hoping I can simply have someone skin
coat on top of the skim coat.  Has anyone ever done this?

-mark

    
    It can be done. A professional plasterer should be able to
    handle this easily. I am in the same situation as you are.
    I have just put on a new family room and will have it skim
    coated.  My neighbor had the same thing done and you cannot
    tell that it wasn't all done at the same time.
    
    However, the palster who did the original work is local, and
    I will try to get him.
    

    A note of caution when tearing down those old pimply ceilings.
    Back in the 60's and 70's they were using asbestos in the 
    'popcorn' ceilings.  I have no idea how you tell if you have
    a hazard over your head, but if the ceiling dates to that period
    you may do better to just cover it over with another ceiling.
    I've done it both ways.  I ripped down one ceiling and replaced
    it and put a ceiling up under a ceiling and found it far simpler
    to just leave the old ceiling in place.  Heck, it deadens sound
    and saves a clean up and disposal problem.  I located the orignal
    strapping with a stud finder and hung new strapping and new ceiling.
    Came out looking great.  Mine is an old house so I could level the
    ceiling by shimming while I was at it and wiring for new ceiling
    fan was a cinch.
    
    -Bob

    The guy I bought my house from was in the process of finishing off
    the basement.  His plan for the ceiling was to have 4" x 6" beams
    spaced a little over 5' apart, with 2" x 4" beams hung between the
    big ones and spaced about 28" apart.  The big beams are notched
    so that the little ones fit in, leaving the top surface flat.  He
    told me that he had planned to put sheets of 5' x 10' sheetrock
    on top of the beams, with the beams covering all the seams.
    	Well, I've finished putting up all the beams, but I can't find
    any 5' x 10' sheetrock. I can't even find somebody who's HEARD of
    5' wide sheetrock.  I could use 4' wide sheetrock, but if I want
    all the seams on top of beams (I do), I can only get one 5' x 27"
    square per piece of sheetrock.  Very wasteful.
    	A co-worker suggested getting some large sheets of the light-weight
    ceiling tiles.  That's a good idea, but where can I get it?
    
    	Does anybody have any suggestions of other materials, or know
    of a place to get 5' wide sheetrock or ceiling tiles?  I'd like
    the ceiling tiles to have a flat surface, or something resembling
    a plastered surface.  I don't like the acoustical tile look.
    
    	Thanx in advance.
    
    Steve

    Uh...I forgot to mention that I live in southern New Hampshire.
    Couldn't you tell from my personal name?  :-)  
    However, I am willing to drive pretty far to get the right stuff.
    
    Steve

    As far as I know, 4' is the standard width for building material sheet
    goods, plywood, sheetrock, paneling. You can get sheetrock in 12' and I
    think 16' lengths, but its still 4' wide. 

    About all you could do is make up your own 5 foot wide panels by
    screwing a 4' and a 1' piece to a couple of pieces of plywood,
    finishing the seams while the panel is on the ground and easy to work
    on. 

    Charly

    re: .0
    
    I think you'll be SOL trying to find 5' x 10' sheetrock.  I have
    worked with 5' x 10' sheets of 5/8" particle board (had the
    pleasure of carrying 30 of those suckers up to the second floor
    of a barn) but that was in Rock Creek, British Columbia.
    
    Out of curiosity, I called a sheetrock supply place for
    contractors here in the Springs and was told, in no uncertain
    terms, that I can get 4' x n' for various values of n, but without
    a million bucks for retooling, I'll never see 5' x anything
    sheetrock.

    Sid

    
    I've thought of doing something similar in my basement (with 4'
    x 8' sheets though) with plywood.  Wouldn't sheetrock tend to sag
    over this unsupported (in the middle) distance?
    
    Phil

    re .4>
    
    The unsupported 'squares' are about 26" x 5'.  Do you think that
    would sag significantly?
    
    reiterate .0>
    
    Anybody ever hear of large sheets of lightweight ceiling tiles?
    
    Steve

    
    
    	26" x 5' squares are significant gaps.  Most sheet rock
    applications are supported every 16" with strapping and screwed
    every eight  inches.  I would look for alternatives like tounge
    and groove pine, or other wood material.
    
    
    

    I have seen 3'X10' prefinished sheet rock used in office construction
    (had a wall paper material finish on it) but havent seen anything
    like it for a home.
    
    /cal

    Do I detect a planning lesson buried somewhere in here?
    

================================================================================
Note 1893.13         Epoxy paint for wet bathroom ceiliings?            13 of 13
CSSE32::NICHOLS "HERB"                               33 lines   8-FEB-1988 09:37
                    -< I declare the experiment a success! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I did the bathroom ceiling yesterday!
    
    As far as I am concerned it is a success! It took about 45 minutes
    to paint. Hardened in a few hours.
    A point that needs reemphasis. Painting with 2 part epoxy SHOULD
    NOT BE DONE unless there is plenty of fresh air. That probably 
    means it should never be done in the winter unless the outside
    temperature is above 50 degress Fahrenheit. This is because the
    fumes are extremely unpleasant and require an open window in the
    work space.  I should have waited for warmer weather! As it was,
    it became necessary to open the bathroom window, but the window
    could not be kept open for long because it was so cold outside -in
    Massachusetts. There are instructions on the can about minimum
    temperature. Don't remember what that temp is, but it was only about
    20 deg F yesterday.
    In summary, the epoxied surface is very hard, should withstand all
    water attacks, cost l.t. $20 to do a 6x8 ceiling, and is quite shiny.
    The epoxy I used came from Sears. It is an off-white color which
    is darker than an oil-based white paint. I would have liked it to
    be whiter. I will be putting another coat on when warmer
    weather comes; because of the fumes, I did not do as thorough a
    job as I should have. The 2 pint cans are enough to do the ~48 sq
    ft twice. The shiny, off white may not be for everyone, although
    the shine is not much more brilliant that oil based paint would
    be.  My conclusion so far is that this is another inexpensive 
    permanent solution to peeling paint in a bathroom. I would do it
    again
    
    
    				herb
    
    

    Thanx for the replies.  I think that I'm gonna go with 4' x 10'
    sheetrock, which will give me two usable pieces per sheet.  I was
    in the building supply store this weekend picking up pieces of
    sheetrock by the edge and checking out the sag.  I didn't look like
    it would sag too much.  Since I'm not planning on plastering (just
    white paint), I'm not worried about a small amount of sag cracking
    the plaster.  Anyway, I'm going for the 'rustic' look here, so maybe
    a little sag will look good! :-).  A backup strategy could be to
    attach stiffeners on the back (top).
    
    Anyway, I'll post a reply later to let you know what happens.
    
    As for the lesson in planning, most of the major beams were up (and
    notched) when I bought the place.  This was more of a lesson in
    gullibility.

    Happy renovations;
    
    Steve

    My in-laws had a living room ceiling done in the same fashion. Beams
    were centered on 2'x4' intervals. No noticable sag in the �" wall
    board layed above the beams, after at least 15 years.

    I'm redoing the upstairs bathroom and have a ceiling question. 
   The bathroom is built from a dormer added on to a cape.  The roof
    of the dormer slopes slightly and inside, the bathroom ceiling was
    framed with 2X4's so that the ceiling is level and doesn't follow
    the slope of the roof.  I'd like to eliminate the level ceiling
    by removing the 2X4 framing and screwing my sheetrock directly
    to the 2X6 dormer rafters.  Is there a structural reason that I
    shouldn't do this?  I believe the only purpose of the 2X4's is to
    provide a grid of nailers to attach the ceiling and that they have
    no structural significance but I thought I'd better ask before I
    rip them out.
    
    Thanks,
    
    George

a couple of quick comments...

the 2X4's could possible be used to tie the wall of the dormer to the house.  in
other words, the weight of the roof tends to push the wall away from the house
and the ceiling joists hold things together.  if you remove them you MAY need to
use something else.  then again, things may be OK as they are, it's hard to say
without actually seeing it.

another comment is insulation. there are several notes currently discussing 
this.  if you choose to go with a 2X6 ceiling, you can only put around 4" of
insulation in it and that ain't very warm.  how are things insulated now?  I 
would assume you have more than 4" in the ceiling now...

-mark

   re: .1
    
    	It looks like there's about 6" of insulation now.  I have to
    take a better look but it appears that the 2X6 dormer roof rafters are
    nailed directly to main roof rafters.  I imagine that this is enough
    to keep the dormer from pulling away from the house.  Would it be
    possible that the ceiling 2X4's are tying the dormers side walls
    together.
    
    	The reason I'm even considering this is because right now I
    have no access to the small space between the roof and the upstairs
    room ceilings (if you can't get up there is it still called an attic?).
    If the bathroom ceiling follows the dormer slope than I can put in
    small door that would at least let me check things out up there 
    occasionally.  I had a carpenter ant problem there last summer.  Even 
    though the exterminator said he could get rid of them by spraying up 
    through the eaves, this year I'd like to have better access if I need it.
    
    George
    

    Suggestion:  If what you want is an access door into the atic, the
    build yourself an access door (or combine it with the framing for
    a whole-house fan -- see some other note).  If you want a cathedral
    ceiling in your bathroom, then build that.  However, don't get the
    projects confused.
    
    Re: Structural integrity.  The top of the upstairs walls of your
    house have a tendency to be pushed out by the weight of the roof.
    Unless you have a load-bearing ridge beam, it is the rafters that
    hold up the roof, and the walls that hold up the rafters, not the
    the rafters that hold up the walls.  The celing joists, stretching
    from one side of the house to the other, are in tension as they
    counteract that tendency.  They can sometimes be removed, or raised,
    or replaces by collar ties, but don't do this lightly.
    
    Most of this remains true for a dormer.   If you are at all unsure,
    take some detailed drawings to a structural engineer ... before
    you get out the saw. 
    
    Re: Insulation.  A catherderal ceiling in a bathroom sounds like
    a bad idea to me.  Hecause that room gets hot andf steamy, you want good
    insulation in the celing, with a vapour barrier, and plenty of
    ventilation above the insulation, i.e., in the "attic".  Also, how
    do you put in something like a ceiling extractor fan?
    
    It's your bathroom, but I would think really carefully about this.
           
    
    	Andrew
    

    Thanks for the replies.  I've decided to leave the ceiling as is
    and sheetrock over the existing framing.  There's enough work to
    renovating a bathroom without throwing rebuilding the ceiling into
    it.  For access to the attic I'll put a door in above one of the 
    upstairs closets.
    
    George

    I am a first-time home owner (novice) and am in need of some advice.
    My husband and I are in the beginning stages of painting the bedroom.
     First of all, the house is 31 years old and we THINK the bedroom
    ceiling has never been re-painted (the previous owners didn't like
    painting!).  Anyway, my husband started scraping the ceiling (we
    saw a couple of places were it was peeling a little) and now it
    appears there is no end to scraping this stuff off!  I appears that
    there is only 1 coat of ceiling paint and it's so old and dirty
    that it looks grey.
    
    Here's the problem.  Should we continue to scrape the ceiling until
    EVERY possible chip comes off and then sand it all down, or should
    we just sand down the areas we have scraped down and start painting
    from there.  We're concerned that all the heavy scraping might damage
    the original plaster and leave marks.
    
    We DON'T want the textured ceiling and can't afford a professional
    to do this, so any advice is appreciated!
    
    Any advice from the "experts"?
    
    Thanks....PG

    If it's peeling "a little", I think your only hope for a decent
    paint job is to scrape it all, then wash the ceiling with something
    like TSP (the active ingredient in Spic'n'Span).  Otherwise, odds 
    are almost guaranteed that your new paint job will start peeling 
    "a little" at some point, and keep peeling "a little" until it's 
    a real mess again.  
    If you REALLY have to work at scraping, if the old paint is REALLY
    adhering to the ceiling, you can probably get away with washing
    it down with TSP to get the dirt and grease off, then repainting.
    
    In painting, surface preparation tends to be about 90% of the work.

    Since your house is 31 yrs old, I will assume that underneath the
    paint is REAL plaster and NOT some form of dry wall. I scraped two
    such ceilings down to bare plaster in our house using one of those
    tools -somebody know the name?- that takes a single edge razor blade.
    A kitchen, and a bathroom.
    Better than 95% of the surface was stripped in about 2 hours completely
    free of paint down to absolutely bare plaster and smooth as a baby's
    tusch.
    What to do about the remaining 5% of the surface area? I made the
    mistake of continuing to use the little tool in an attempt to get
    the rest of the paint off. I did get the paint off but also nicked
    the plaster as well. In one case, that didn't matter since the ceiling
    was about to be replastered (don't ask why i stripped it, was just
    having a kind of perverse fun); but the other ceiling has some
    noticeable nicks.!!
    If you have a similar situation, follow my lead for the 1st 95%
    of the work -if it doesn't come off easy, my advice doesn't help-
    then use some kind of paint remover for the remaining stubborn little
    blots. Make certain you read the instructions carefully when using
    the paint remover. Many paint removers can be QUITE unpleasant and
    typically require good ventilation.

    
    
    				good luck
    				h

    
    Are there any places in New England where I can by the
    meterial for a metal ceiling?  If so where?
    
                              Dave E.

I'm not sure what you mean by metal ceiling.  Do you mean the old patterned tin 
ceilings?

Paul

    Renovator's Supply, in Mass (whose address is mentioned elsewhere)
    is a source of tin panels.  Also, within the last 6 months or so,
    Old House Journal ran an article on installing and maintaing a tin
    ceiling.  I can't remember for sure, but there may have been a list
    of suppliers with the article.
    
    - Mark
    

    The original Post Office in the center of Amherst, NH is up for
    sale. It's been converted to a single family home. It has all the
    original tin ceilings. (I think it's listed for about $325K.)
    
    Doesn't help the author, just an interesting sidebar.
    
    MP

I have plans to texture the ceiling in my bathroom.  Someone told
    me that if the ceiling is painted with a latex paint that the texture
    won't stick.  Anyone know if this is true?
    
    Tom...
    

    
    
    RE:1  yes I'm talking about tin ceilings. 
    
    RE: 2   thanks
    
    RE: 3  interesting
    
                         Dave E.
    

    
      we used to own a home, built by the Dowd family who were partners
    with Benjamin Franklin.  The dining room had an inlaid metal ceiling.
    The room was 26 x 24.  The moldings around the wall were 2' wide
    by 1' thick (hollow of course).  The panels were one foot square
    and were recessed with a raised filagree type edge that was raised
    above the grid.  And a big chandalier in the middle.  What a beautiful
    piece of work.  It was gun-metal blue.  My mother wanted it white.
    Using an oil based primer and paint, it took my father, three older
    brothers and I eight nights to get it white!
    
      Goog luck with your metal ceiling.  With the quality of paints
    today, it won't be toooo bad to paint and will hold its paint
    longer.

    
    Worked for me too, been up for 5 years with no problems.

    	You might want to think twice before texturing the bathroom
    ceiling.  Have you ever tried to clean mildew off of a rough surface?
    				=Ralph=
    
    	(BTW I think the stuff will stick fine)

I've seen ads for it in Fine Homebuilding, every issue.

Paul

Ok,  please clue me in.

When I originally read this, I thought that maybe tin ceilings were 
put in to get pretty patterns, filagree, etc. and would be left bare 
so the effect would show.

then the last reply talked about painting it and blew that theory.

So now I'm confused.  Why would someone put in a metal ceiling?  wouldn't the 
paint fill in any detail and waste the effect?  I'm sure I've seen one, and 
I'm sure it was painted, but at the time I didn't realize it was metal.

This is really interesting !!

    Tin ceilings do have pretty patterns, which may be over an inch
    or two in depth.  A few coats of paint won't obscure this.
    
    However, the idea of painting a real tin ceiling is (to me)
    sacrilegious. 
    
    By the bye, I've seen plastic reproductions of tin ceilings.
    (4' x 8' sheets) Sorry, don't know if/where they're available.
                     
    					andrew

    
    Used a latex primer and then rented a sprayer and sprayed a texture
    onto my kitchen ceiling. So far no problems.
    
    I have a texture ceiling in my bathroom and have no mildew problems.
    I suppose it depends on what kind of ventilation you have.
    
    

I read recently in the Old House Journal that, beautiful as they are, tin
ceilings were usually installed to cover up cracked plaster ceilings.  They 
were seldom installed as part of new construction.

OHJ also stated that tin ceiling panels _need_ to be painted, to keep the 
metal from rusting.  (Remember, the metal from which non-rusting "tin cans" 
are made isn't pure tin - I think it's mostly chromium.)

Several stores in beautiful downtown Maynard have tin ceilings with decades
of paint, and they still show considerable detail.  I suspect that they're 
present in many more stores, hidden above suspended ceilings.

Thanks for all the input.  I just installed a fan in the bathroom so
    I had hoped that would take care of the mildew problem.  Perhaps
    I should leave the ceiling smooth for a while and see if the problem
    still exists with the fan.
    
    Tom...

    Avery's furniture store in downtown Nashua also has a tim ceiling.
    At least, I rembr that the part where they keep the carpet samples
    on the ground floor is tin.
    
    An excellent store for traditional furniture, btw. They've beenthere
    for over a century, but the ceiling may be younger!
    
    	Andrew
    

    
    
    	A friend of mine in Manchester NH installs tin ceilings, ( and
    	other types of suspended ceilings ) for a living.  He does
    	exceptional work and is very busy.  Tin ceilings are becoming
    	more popular these days.
    
    	Tony

I bought a tin ceiling for the pantry of our Victorian farmhouse (built
in 1894), but have never installed it.  Now that we're selling and
moving to a 200-year old Colonial, anybody want to buy a 5' by 10'
tin ceiling?  

To answer the original question, I'll bring in the name and address of
the company I ordered from -- their selection is the largest I've seen
and the prices were pretty reasonable.  The company is W. F. Norman;
I've also seen ads for a couple other companies, I'll try to find them
again too.

Love those ceilings, but I guess they won't really look appropriate
in our new (old) house... sigh.


Jan   who_is_counting_the_days_to_closing

The latest Old House Journal Catalog I have says the following about
W.F. Norman Corp.:

"This company is again producing an 81-year old line of metal ceiling,
wainscotting, wall panels, cornices, mouldings and metal Spanish Tile
roofing.  Patterns come in many architectural styles:  Greek, Gothic, 
Rococo, Colonial Revival.  Unique patterns; made from original dies.
Write for Ceiling Catalog No. 350 - $3.00.  Also, (800) 641-4038."

My catalog is the 1983 edition, if you are really interested you might
want to give them a call and see if the price is still $3.00.  They
have a much wider selection than Renovators Supply but they aren't
exactly located in New England!

W. F. Norman Corporation
P.O. Box 323
Nevada, MO 64772



Jan  

    Well, the panels are all up (but not painted yet).  I like having
    each panel cut separately.  I can move them easily to get at the
    pipes and stuff that is up in the ceiling.  Besides, there's no
    way in h*ll that I would be able to lift a full-size piece into
    place.
    
    No visible sag, at least not yet.
    
    Steve
    
   

    
    
    RE: 13
    
       THANKS JAN
    
    

    I've just had a room about 30 feet by 12 plastered and we used both
    techniques mentioned earlier in this note.
    
    We left the old ceiling where it was and nailed up to it new board
    ready for plastering.  This is an awkward job so I cut the board
    into about 3 foot lengths as I could handle these.
    
    On some walls we wanted to plaster over bits of existing plaster
    and over some cement that the previous plaster had come away from.
    Solution was a proprietory glue that we splashed all over the walls.
    
    No point in me mentioning products by name as I used local products
    which presumably are by firms not trading in the USA.  Have a word
    with your building material supplier.

	I have a very bad situation in my bathroom that I'll be doing over
shortly. I have a flat latex paint that is starting to chip over by the
shower. 

	Do I:


	A.	Chip and sand the ceiling and wash with TSP or Spic n' Span.
		Then apply an "OIL" based paint over this with the mildew
		resistor mixed in.	


	B.	Chip and sand the ceiling and wash with TSP or Spic n' Span.
		Then apply an "LATEX"  based paint over this with the mildew
		resistor mixed in.	


	C. 	Do it another way....

I would simply chip off all the bad spots.  Patch with joint compound, 
and paint over with oil-based semi-gloss paint.  That's worked in
our bathrooms for a year now (check out the Touraine triple-white for 
ceilings).

    
    Some idiot painted my shower surround with a glossy oil-based paint.
    It seems to have help up surprisingly well (although it looks
    terrible), so I think oil-based semi-gloss would probably work 
    well for a bathroom ceiling.
    
    -tm
    

    I have a couple of water stains on my ceiling (the bumpy, stucco-type
    ceiling, white) which I'd like to remove without have to paint the
    whole ceiling. If try to do a paint touch up, I'm afraid that the
    freshly painted area will stand out too much.
    
    My building inspector had reccommended spraying bleach on it. I
    tried this which didn't work too well and made me ill from the fumes.
    
    Anyone have any suggestions? Thanks.
    
    Mathew Taylor
    

bleach almost always works for me.  did you put it on heavy enough?

-mark

    A contractor told us to use something called BIN.  

BIN is a white stain sealer - you may have a color match problem for 
your application

its used to SEAL stains before painting over them - keeps them from 
bleeding thru

    	Chlorox bleach sprayed on will remove the stains.
    
      	Wear goggles and a surgical mask and the fumes won't bother
    you (too much).  Don't forget a dropcloth !!  And a good shower
    afterward.
    
    	I've heard of a product called KILL-X (?) that is a bleach that
    won't leave chloride salts behind (you should brush the ceiling after
    using Chlorox) but no one seemed to know where to find it when I
    needed it.
    
    -mike z

    This is a little after-the-fact (all these replies are pretty old),
    but as we have used a couple methods, I wanted to add my 3 cents.
    
    Someone mentioned ceiling buttons.  We did that in two rooms, they
    worked well & it came out great.  It was, however, hard work and
    time consuming to get the ceilings real flat and smooth after.
    
    Just recently we had this guy from Somerville in to do two more
    ceilings.  He built staging to bring him up closer to the ceiling,
    put up sheetrock (blue board?) right over the old plaster, and then
    skim coated the whole thing with a smooth finish.  Total cost? 
    $185.  It's beautiful work, too.  I don't have his name & phone,
    but if someone is interested, send me mail, and I will look into
    it.  A friend of mine arranged for him to come down and do the work
    at the same time his was being done.  Oh, by the way, it only took
    him a couple hours....he was really fast.  Did almost the whole
    house for my friend in one day!
    
    						Sue

    >> Just recently we had this guy from Somerville in to do two more
    >> ceilings.  He built staging to bring him up closer to the ceiling,
    >> put up sheetrock (blue board?) right over the old plaster, and then
    >> skim coated the whole thing with a smooth finish.  Total cost? 
    >>$185.  
    
    That's *really* cheap for just sheetrock (I can't beleive he put
    up blueboard that fast or that cheap).  Please put him in the
    contractor referral section if you can find his name.
    
    -tm
    

I'm getting ready to hang some sheet rock on a cathedral ceiling and am looking
for tips for securing it to the peak.

			/|
		       / |
		      /  |
		     /   |
                    /    |
                   /     |
                  /      |

The slope isn't really this bad (only 30 degrees).  I think if I were to put
up the wall first I can use the ceiling cavity to hold teh screw gun and 
therefore get a tight fit.  As far as the ceiling, there's really no way to get
at the very top, but if I wedge the rock into the notch, wouldn't that hold?

How do the pros do it?

-mark

    Mark,  When I did my bedroom, which has a 10' cathedral ceiling,
           I did the ceiling first, my father and I used 2 step ladders,
           to get the sheetrock up there and then I screwed it into
           place, one end butted to the wall and the other to the carrying
           beam, I left about 1/2" gap at the carrying beam end nad
           when the sheetrock was in place and painted, I boxed the
           beam (4 2x12's) in with pine and then trimmed it with 
           3/4" cove molding. Personally, I would hang the ceiling first
           and then the walls...
    
    
    
    Royce

    
       Don't be afraid to use sheetrock nails on the part that you can't
    get to with the screw gun. Put as many screws as possible in and
    then secure the rest with nails, You can get a hammer in to spots
    where a screw gun is too long to fit.
    
                                               John C.
    

    I agree with putting the ceiling up first.  This is going to have
    more downward pressure than the wall.  Therefore, it will need more
    support.  The wall, when wedged into the corner and nailed as far
    up as you can go should only have downward pressure straight down.
     This is better than pressure away from the studs.
    
    Ed..

    There is a dandy appliance/tool that you can rent to help raise
    and hold the sheetrock.  Cost was about $25.00 for the day when
    we used it several years ago.  I don't recall its proper name, but
    when we described what we were doing, the rental store provided
    just what we needed.  
    
    P.S.  Another vote for doing the ceiling first.

    I would also do the ceiling first. You can screw in a piece of
    strapping as a ledger board to take most of the weight of the
    sheetrock. All you have to do is hold the sheetrock against it.
    if you want to get really fancy take a couple of scraps of strapping
    about 6" to a foot and screw them together overlapping the top piece
    about an inch. When you hoist the sheetrock in place place this
    offset jig under the sheetrock and screw it with 2" screws to the
    roof rafter. You will need a couple of these. They will support
    the sheet and the offset will keep it in place. When I get to the
    top of the ceiling I switch to a Makita right angle drill with a
    #2 bit in the chuck to drive the screws, it only takes up about
    3" of room.
    
    						Chris

    Without starting a new note, I figured this would be the best topic
    to place this question under.
    
    I'm in the process of re-doing the entire kitchen, and the ceiling
    looks pretty bad.  It's wallboard, and the tape is starting to yellow
    and there's almost more cracks than ceiling.  Instead of tearing
    it out and putting up new wallboard and then have the enjoyment
    of dust ALL over, as well as the mudding and taping and sanding
    and dust and sanding and dust, etc..., We've (she's) decided on
    a suspended ceiling.  Does anyone have any advice regarding a suspended
    ceiling as far as the process, is it relatively easy, and cost?
    
    Thanks for all answers.
    Gene
    
    (BTW - the room is about 11'6" x 15'3".)
    

    Suspended ceilings are inexpensive, easy to install -- and look
    like suspended ceilings.  I've put them up in basement rooms; the
    job is easy if you do a little measuring first.  Check some homeowners
    books for complete description of the job.
    
    Anothe alternative would be to simply add new sheetrock over  the 
    existing ceiling -- just run sheetrock screws through both layers
    and into the ceiling rafters (you'll have to locate the rafters,
    but poking some holes through the old ceiling is no problem).  You
    still have to tape and sand, though.

    
    Or you can use sand paint, it covers the nasties
    
    CdH
    

    RE: .6, a suspended ceiling doesn't have to look that way, it all
    depends on what you want to spend. Cheap tiles will look like typical
    "suspended ceilings", but there are many better grades. I did a
    family room with a top of the line Armstrong a few years back that
    looked like carved plaster. The key to making it look good is to
    use hangers (supports, or whatever the proper name is) from the 
    same manufacturer as the tiles. Though they may be twice as expensive
    and often hard to find, they are a perfect color match and (at least
    with the Armstrong units), much better built. 
    
    Eric
    

re: .6

Kitchens generate a lot of grease.  I would be very concerned
with how easy it is to keep the surface of the tiles clean.
The ones I am familiar with are very porous and would trap
grease and odors.  Anyone out there have any experience with
using a suspended ceiling in a kitchen environment and want to 
comment?  Personally I don't think they sound like the right
solution for a kitchen or bathroom; other rooms would probably
be fine.

-JFK-

    Well, to further complicate matters.....
    I stopped @ Grossman's last nite and the "specialist" was extremely
    helpful.  Suspended ceilings are easy and inexpensive, however,
    they often look that way, unless I want to spend $$$.  He didn't
    recommend them in a kitchen, however, because of the grease buildup,
    etc., and tho the panels say they're washable, he's yet to see one.
    
    Anyway, he recommended putting up new sheetrock right over the old,
    using 2 1/2" screws, then taping and mudding the seams and using
    textured paint to eliminate the mess of sanding.
    
    I checked the ceiling last nite, and it isn't really _that_ bad.
    The majority of cracks is actually the old tape becoming brittle
    and cracking and yellowing.  The ceiling is solid; I pressed at
    the seams and got very little, if any movement.  I'm thinking of
    re-taping and mudding and using textured paint on the existing ceiling.
    I would be the cheapest way out, and we don't plan on living there
    forever, so if it cracks again in 3 to 5 years, let someone else
    worry about it.
    This does present a slight problem, however.  I'm replacing the
    wiring in the entire house, and I planned on running the kitchen
    lite on 3-way switches.  I can connect the 3-way wire easiest by
    running it under the floor, in the basement.  I use a few extra
    feet of wire, but it beats ripping out a wall where I don't have
    to.  My question is, if I do stay with the existing ceiling, how
    can I run a wire from the wall switch to the light?  I realize I
    may have to punch a little hole @ the top of the wall, but how about
    from the top of the wall to the light, a distance of 6-8 feet? 
    I was thinking of cutting a trough in the ceiling and running the
    wire to the light, pushing the wire in as deep as possible without
    chopping out the joists, then mudding and taping the trough, so
    the wire essentially runs through the wallboard.  Is that possible?
    I realize it may not be up to code, but is it the easiest way? 
    Does anyone have a better idea?  ( I can't tap into the existing
    wire at the light and pull the new one through, because the wiring
    is mis-mash now, the light is a pull chain, not a wall switch, and
    I don't have the vaguest idea where the light draws its juice. 
    It may come from the bedroom above it.)
    Thanks again for all advice.
    Gene
     

two suggestions:

one other possibility for the ceiling is a staple up type which is NOT 
those ugly 12" square tiles.  Grossman's sells a type which looks like 
random length and random width tougue and groove boards but is white.  it's 
really quite acceptable in the looks dept.  but i think it costs more than 
sheet rock.  you might want to check though.

regardless of how you cover the ceiling the time to snake wires is before
you do it.  if you are running wire with the ceiling/floor joists you are
in luck. if not maybe you should go that way anyway and then run across the 
basement ceiling.  anyway, cut open a hole near the wall above the switch. 
you should be able to fish a wire from the lite to that hole.  then getting
from that hole to the switch should also be managable.  there are about 6
ways to wire up a three way switch, sometimes a way that requires more wire
is easier than the most apparant way. 

craig

    We are planning to install a T&G ceiling in our country kitchen.
    We have not decided on what type of wood yet, but have a more basic
    question.......
    
    Our current plan is to sheetrock the entire room, including the
    ceiling, then install the T & G wood over the sheetrock.  Does this
    make sense or is it over kill to install the sheetrock?  
    
    What is the proper method of installation for the T & G?  None of
    the DIY books we have at home address this.  Thanks for the help
    - all opinions welcome!
    
    Kathy

    I have just finished a ceiling with 1"x8" Cedar tongue and groove.
     I used the cedar in an ouside application (a gazebo), but it wasn't
    that difficult.
    
    As to the question of sheetrock, I don't know why you'd want to do
    that.  The T&G presents more that a reasonable stiffness on a normal
    installation, that is where the joists are 16" on center.
    
    Installing the T&G is a reasonable, but a fairly time consuming
    process.
    
    1.  Make certain that the end of each plank is square.  If it isn't,
    you can throw the whole installation off.  You can square it with
    your table saw or with a hand square.
    
    2.  When you go to install, you only need a rubber mallet to butt
    together the boards.  Be careful when hitting the edge, because
    it is fairly easy to break and/or crack.
    
    3.  When nailing, you don't need to nail on an angle from one board
    to another, because the T&G really makes a nice fit.  It is up to
    you, as to what kind of nails to use, but finish will be real nice.
    
    4.  Don't completely drive the nail, but go almost to the end. 
    Finish driving by using a sink.  If you hit the cedar with the hammer,
    you will mark it.
    
    I hope this helps.  For my money, I like cedar.  It is stain resistant
    and fairly odor resistant too(good for a kitchen).  One of the nicest
    things about cedar, is it can continually be sanded down to release
    the preservatives so special to cedar.
    
    Questions?  Give me a call             
    

    The family room I built (20'x24' with a vaulted ceiling 8' to 14')
    is almost completely done with 1"x6" T&G red cedar (walls and ceiling).
    
    The biggest pain was installing all the 1"x3" stapping; because
    the cedar was parallel to the studs and rafters.  I went the overkill
    route and screwed all the strapping in, because I didn't want to
    worry about it becoming loose (and I also had 25lbs of drywall screws
    to use up :-).  The actual cedar was put up using 8d finish nails.
    
    I'll second everything mentioned in .1, and add an additional comment
    about squaring the ends.  You should definitely insure that the
    end is square with the width of the board.  However, I have been
    told that it is also a good idea to back cut when cross-cutting.
    (Instead of having the blade perpendicular to the table, make it
    2 or 3 degrees off, i.e., 87 or 88 degrees).  This is supposed to
    allow the ends to butt with a minimal seam.  Note that I found out
    about this technique after I had finished, but I'll keep it in mind
    to try out in the future.
    
    Also, make sure that you have a *good* (carbide) cutoff blade in
    your saw.  (I used a Freud LM85M10, 80 tooth 10" carbide, blade
    in my radial arm saw.)  It will minimize tearout, and limit the
    amount of finish work needed to the cross-cut end.
    
    - Mark

I have just completed my 12'X11' breezeway which connects my house and garage.
I am putting in a cathedral ceiling but I have a question about where to place 
the collar ties.  How high up should collar ties be placed?? The roof pitch is
11/12, rafters are 2X6 and i plan to use 2X6's for the ties.  I thought 1 to
2 feet down from the peak.

gary

    How high is the ceiling?
    Are you going to sheetrock the ceiling?
    Do you want the collar ties to show after sheetrocking, or are you
    going to attach sheetrock to the bottom of the collar ties?
    

room in 12' wide with 11/12 pitch gives about 8' + 5' = 13' to peak from floor.
I will sheetrock ceiling and under collar ties.  

What I need to know is structural requirements...  I may have a couple exposed
beams but for the most part the collar ties will do all the support which would
normally be done by joists.

    If you'd used 2x10 you'd have been able to do the rafters 2'0" o.c.
    The collar ties would be at joist level every other rafter (e.g.
    one at 4' and one at 8').  
    
    With 2x6 rafters I'd guess you went 16" o.c.  The collars need to
    be at least on every other joist.  
    
    If you wanted completely open you'd need to have a supported ridge
    beam. 
    
    If you want to put the collars up high you might get a 10' ceiling
    out of it.

    

>    If you'd used 2x10 you'd have been able to do the rafters 2'0" o.c.
>    The collar ties would be at joist level every other rafter (e.g.
>    one at 4' and one at 8').  

    yes, as I said the cathedral ceiling was an afterthought. Originally I
    was going to put ceiling joists (2X6) 16"oc
    
>    With 2x6 rafters I'd guess you went 16" o.c.  The collars need to
>    be at least on every other joist.  

    yes 16 oc
    
>    If you wanted completely open you'd need to have a supported ridge
>    beam. 

    yes the construction is 2x6 rafters, 16" oc, with a 2x10 ridge pole.  The
    room connects the house and garage so one end (the house) has ridge pole
    supported via joist hanger and the first rafter pair nailed to house, the
    other end angles onto garage roof.  So the chance of ell roof sagging or
    spreading I think is minimal.  But I think its still good to put the collar
    ties in at the peak.  
    
>    If you want to put the collars up high you might get a 10' ceiling
>    out of it.

	thats what Im looking for is where they must be placed to meet 
	"common building code".  too high and they may not serve their
	purpose, too low will make room look less "cathedral".  I heard once
	that the general rule of thumb is 1/3 the way down from peak to 
	top of wall but that was a generealization and I want to keep them
	as high as possible.

    

    Suggestion: Why not run one support beam across the whole thing,
    and skip the collar ties. You can support one end of the beam
    with the house and the other with the garage.  
    
    When I put on my addition and garage this is what I did. (Or the
    contractor did at my request). A notch was cut in the side of the
    existing house to fit the beam. 2x? support was inserted in the
    wall cavity to support the beam, and get it to the right height.
    The other end was supported by a 2x6(?) beam that ran straight
    down to the foundation.
    
    The beam can be added even though your rafters are already up.
    
    Steve
    

Collar ties are relatively light weight tension members (often only 2x4 or 
2x3) that keep the rafters from spreading.  The higher they are, the less 
well they work.  Building codes should be clear on whether you need them
at all (but I don't have building codes).  If you have a cathedral ceiling,
do I understand that you don't have normal ceiling joists?  In that case
I would expect that you need some transverse tension members to keep the 
walls from falling over into the yard, and low, heavier collar ties would be 
needed.

I don't understand .5 at all.  Where does the "beam" you mention connect
to keep the roof from spreading?  From your description, I infer that
this beam runs parallel to the ridge pole.  Is this what you meant?

- tom powers]

    I doubt if your building code specifies the location of collar ties.
    Usually, the code will state the live load (snow, wind, etc) that
    must be carried by the roof.  You add to this the dead load (rafters,
    decking, roofing, and plasterboard) to determine the total load.
    Typical examples are live = 30#
                         dead = 10#
                        Total = 40#
    The area of your roof is 11' X 12' or 132sq'sq'  This time 40# per
    sq ft =  total load of 5280 pounds.  One half of this load is carried
    by the outside walls leaving 2640 lbs to be supported by a beam
    in the center.  This assumes you want to place a beam parallel to
    the ridge board, directly under it and fasten the rafters to the
    beam (a very reasonable thing to do).  The next part of the calculation
    requires knowledge of what material (southern yellow pine, western
    douglas fir, eastern hemlock, etc) you will use for the beam.  From
    the shear and elasticity of the wood, you can calculate the size
    of the beam to carry this load over the given span with an allowable
    deflection (typically 1/240th).  The equations can be found in 
    "Architectural Graphics Standards" amoung other places.  If you
    give me the above information, I'll do the calculation for you and
    calculate the size of the posts needed at each end to support the
    beam.
    

    Yes, the beam is the Ridge pole. It runs parralel to the ridge.
    Not my relatives, the roof ridge.
    
    Steve Ridge

	To provide adequate support the collar ties should be in the 
	middle third of the rafters.  Typically, the collar ties are 1/3
	the way down to provide maximum headroom.  1x2/1x3 strapping should be 
	nailed across the collar ties at 16" O.C.  Sheetrock should 
	then be attached to the strapping.  

	Brian

re -.1

Thanks, that was tho info I was looking for, but one other thing, I plan
on putting up 1" rigid insulation before I sheetrock. should the insul go on 
before or after strapping and can I get by without the strapping altogether?

Strapping is an interesting subject.  I recently put up lots of strapping.
Personally, I think it's a good�idea for a couple of reasons.  For  I would
think it would help keep the rafters from twisting - in my case I have 2X12's.
Then, in my case I found that the afters didn't line up perfectly - If I put
a straight edge across them there might be some gaps that varied by as much as
1/4".  I know that that's not really that much but my fear was that with smooth
ceiling, I might see ripples.  Strappign gave me the ability to put in lots of
shims and get a real level surface.

-mark

> Thanks, that was tho info I was looking for, but one other thing, I plan
> on putting up 1" rigid insulation before I sheetrock. should the insul go on 
> before or after strapping and can I get by without the strapping altogether?

If you hang strapping from the collar ties (if you use them), why limit
yourself to rigid insulation?  Put fiberglass batts or equivalent
between the collar  ties, on top of the strapping.  That's the way
ceilings are insulated on traditional ceiling joist/strapping systems.

If you're talking about strapping to the rafters all the way up
to the ridge, that's a different matter.  Do the ventilating requirements
of an open attic apply to such an installation?  Is there room
for airflow from eaves to ridge if you used, say, 6" fiberglass
between, say, 10" or 12" rafters?  Again, between strapping and roof.

- tom]

PS: I understand .5 now (per my question in .6).  You are suggesting
what amount to a humugous ridge pole with vertical support at the ends.

re .12

I plan on installing propa vents between rafters, insulating between 
rafters with 6" insul and THEN putting 1" rigid over everything.

    I'm planning to install a suspended ceiling in my basement this
    winter. I would appreciate any comments and hints on the pit falls,
    watch outs and so on. Also where is a good place to buy tracks and
    panels in the Nashua area?
    

Would you believe 2887 notes without one on suspended ceilings?  I already had 
it locked because I was sure it was already here, but then I looked in the 
directories and found nothing.

So what do you people know about suspended ceilings?

Paul

    The nicest touch I found was to use the hangers that are made by
    the same manufacturer as the ceiling tiles. A few years back, I
    did a ceiling with Armstrong "Victoria" tiles and Armstrong hangers-it
    was a perfect color match. The hanger grid was more expensive that
    the regularly stocked brand, but it was MUCH stronger and matched
    the color perfectly.
    
    Eric

    I saw something go by yesterday about using 1 foot clearance for tile
    installation/removal ease. This is fine with 10 foot ceilings but in a
    basement it could become a problem. You may suddenly feel MUCH taller.
    Not everyone opts for a full 8 foot basement so your mileage may vary.

    I've done several of these, professionally and otherwise.
    
    Some tips.
    
    Getting something that big level is tricky.  A spirit level is way
    too short.  It's easy to trace around the perimiter of a room and
    be 6" off due to cumulative error.  Try using a water level (hose
    full of water) or even better, if you beg or borrow a builder's
    level (transit), it will make life so much easier - just put it
    in the middle of the room and swing it around.
    
    On the same subject, do NOT assume the bottom of the ceiling joists
    are level.  They are probably not even close.  Use an independemt
    reference (like the floor or the method in the previous paragraph).
    
    Cutting cross tees and edge angles is problematic. Tin snips distort
    them too much. Hacksaws are better but painfully slow.  For a large
    ceiling I put an abrasive cut-off wheel in a table saw and that worked
    great.
    
    Note that you need at least some clearance upward to insert the
    panels and then drop them down onto the grid.  I made the mistake
    once of putting the grid flush against some ductwork and found I
    couldn't get the panel in without incredible gyrations.
    
    The translucent panels they make for lights are incredibly chintzy
    and will fall out and break very easily.  Look for sturdier ones
    (like the ones you see in DEC offices).
    
    Don't buy cheap panels.  The whole system depends on the weight
    of the panels holding things in place.  Light, cheap ones never
    lay flat correctly.
    
    Suspended ceilings are a necessary evil for situations where you
    need access to the infrastructure.  In the best of circumstances
    they have an amateur DIY look to them (usually helped along by the
    1/64 thick embossed fake wood paneling that appears in conjunction
    on the walls).  If your expectations are set properly and the rest
    of the room is finished in a decent manner you will be ahead of
    the game - it's not really hard stuff to do.

I am redoing a small room in my house.  I would like to raise the
ceiling a few inches to make the room less claustraphobic.  The
existing ceiling is about 6 1/2 feet.  The house is a one story and
the area above the room is just a crawl space which is inaccessible.  
The roof is pitched with about 4 feet between the ceiling and the
ridge.  

I would like to know how difficult this is, if it is at all possible.  
Can I remove the ceiling (which appears to be wallboard) and raise the
ceiling joists or is there a lot more to it?

Any suggestions or personal experiences would be appreciated.

Steve

	Is there any wiring in the ceiling?
	Is there any plumbing in the ceiling?
	Do you have blown in insulation?
	Is your roof made with roof trusses?
	Are there any bearing walls supporting the middle of the ceiling?
	Did you have trouble understanding any of these questions?

	The more "yes" answers you have the more difficult the job will be.

	I started to write a long reply to this question, but decided what you 
	really need is a drawing, and I need the answers to these questions.
	
	Brian
	P.S.  Using a system account is poor notes etiquette, unless your name 
	is Steve System.

    If you have 4 feet croll space, I assume that you also have roof
    and ceiling rafters. In this case you are talking about a major 
    job to raise the ceiling regardless to what you have from electric 
    wiring, plumbing and insulation.
    What we are talking about here is:
    
    	o removing all the elect, plumb, and insulation
    	o removing the roof
    	o removing the existing ceiling
    	o raising  the walls (optional)
    	o use the inside of your roof as the ceiling
    
    The reason I recommended removing your ceiling and also your roof
    is because your roof is supported by the ceiling rafters, therefore
    you can not just simply remove the ceiling.
    
    I recommend that you think about rebuilding the whole floor if you
    are going to spend all this money on just removing all these parts
    of your house. 
    Or simply just live with it the way it is now...
    
    Can you tell me if I gessed correctly about your ceiling and roof
    rafters?
    Good luck if you are going to go trough it.
    
    Regards
    		Abed

	I need to jack up a ceiling so that I can remove a bearing wall and 
replace it with a beam to open up two rooms.  Never having done this before I'd 
like to check what I plan to do before proceeding.  My plan is to use a jack 
and 4X4's about 2 1\2 feet out on each side of the bearing wall. I'll jack up 
the ceiling 3/8", build temporary walls 2 ft out from each side of the wall to 
be removed and lower the ceiling back onto the temporary walls.  The temporary 
walls will provide 1/2" of claearance for me to place the beam and I will use 
plywood or some other material between both the the 4X4's and temporary walls 
and the ceiling to help distribute the pressure so that I don't damage the 
ceiling (I hope).  Once the bearing wall is removed and the beam placed and 
secure, I'll jack up the ceiling again, remove the temporary walls and lower 
the ceiling onto the beam...Voila!  open living.

	Now for some questions:

	Is 3/8" to much to jack things up?  Should I go for a lesser amount?
If necessary I can leave less than 1/2" to place the beam, maybe only 1/8th.

	The span I want to remove is 11' 10".  Should I use 2 jacks per side?

	Is this the best way to		__________  ceiling
	jack things up or is  		 ======== 
	there a better way to place	    | ^
	the jack and 4X4's?		    | |
					    |<-- 4X4's
					    =<--jack

	How strong do the support walls have to be?  Should they be built like 
normal bearing walls (double plates etc)?

	Am I out of my mind for doing this?

Thanks for any insight.

George

    
    Well, jacking up the ceiling could cause problems for whatever is
    above it!
    
    I did a similiar thing a few years ago. I just used a floor plate,
    a ceiling plate and 2X4 s about 16" oc for the temporary support walls.
    I made the temporary studs a smidgeon long (~1/16") and drove them
    in place. So I didn't really raise the ceiling much at all. I then
    put in a beam and took out the temporary walls. When I sold the house 
    about 10 - 12 years later, no cracks or anything like that had ever 
    shown up.
    Mine was in the basement so there was no ceiling finish to worry
    about. You would have to be luckier than I am to do that and not
    damage the ceiling finish somewhat. 

    You probably need a permit to do this but it is fairly straightforward.
    
    

    I go for the permit today.  The building inspector has already checked
    beam sizing, support placement and whatnot.
    
    George

	Re:  2894.2 
>	o removing the roof
	If the the roof is stick built, then the roof does not have to be moved,
	IF the ceiling joist will be in the lower 1/3 of the height of the 
	roof.  If the height is 4 ft then the roof could be raised upto 
	8"-10" above the side walls taken into account the depth of the joists.
	The key is to put up the new joists BEFORE removing the old.  	  

>    	o raising  the walls (optional)
	The side walls do not have to be raised.  If there is a center bearing
	wall, it would have to be raised to support the new joists.  The details
	would depend on the height, if you are raising the ceiling on both sides
	and how you insulate the attic.

	I have done this in a garage and barn(not in a house that was occupied).
	Also TOH 2nd or 3rd season(the Woburn Ranch) had a similar situation.
	I might have a copy of the shows at home(2 or 11 repeated it this 
	summer).  They spent part of a couple episodes talking about how to 
	raise the ceiling and some of the pitfalls.  It was actually very 
	informative, unlike the current TOH.

		BOB:  This ceiling needs to be raised 2 ft.

		NORM:  Hi, Bob.  We have to do it to meet the codes that they
		       keep changing.  But, it is a job that any homeowner 
		       can do themselves, if they know how.

		BOB:  Thats nice Norm. While Norm raises the ceiling, lets take 
		      another look at those $5M apartments in the Trump Towers.

		[5 minutes later]

		BOB:  Well, Norm has finished the ceiling and the plasters
		      where here this mourning.  That it for today......

    You might just want to pick up to ajustable posts, any lumber yard,
    they will take the load and allow you to raise or lower as needed
    while you work. It can get to be a problem if something is 1/4 inch
    higher then you planned for, forcing it can do more damage then
    gently raising it.

    re: finding a true level...
    
    An old carpenter friend showed me a trick he used when installing
    suspended cielings in some older homes.
    
    He had a 'contraption' made from an old coffee can and a 20 foot
    length of clear plastic hose.  The hose was connected to the 
    bottom of the coffee can.  He then filled the can and hose with
    water from the kitchen sink.  After this, he placed the filled 
    coffee can on a stepladder which was placed in the center of
    the room.  Holding the end of the hose he would walk to each
    wall and make a mark on the wall when the water in the hose
    reached the end of the hose.  Since water always seeks its own
    level he ended up with all the walls marked at the same level.
    From this he would measure "up" to where his final marks would go.
    
    Seemed real simple and worked every time.
    
    Dave Vedder

	Do not jack up the ceiling.  You want to keep the ceiling in place, 
	no higher, no lower.  Build a temporary wall.  The trick is to make 
	the studs a little longer then a perfect fit.  Then gently pound 
	them between the top and bottom plates.  Alternate leaning to the left
	and leaning the studs to the right.  This allows for any small 
	variations in the ceiling or the 2x4.  

	How many studs to use?  If it was my house, about 16" O.C., but
	I have seen old carpenters use only 4 over a 12' span, usually longer 
	at about 60 degree angles.  

	Another hint:  take down the wall plaster and place the beam near 
	the wall before erecting the temporary walls.  (Embarassing story not
	included)

	Brian

>>	Do not jack up the ceiling.  You want to keep the ceiling in place, 
>>	no higher, no lower.  Build a temporary wall.  The trick is to make 
>>	the studs a little longer then a perfect fit.  Then gently pound 
>>	them between the top and bottom plates.  Alternate leaning to the left
>>	and leaning the studs to the right.  This allows for any small 
>>	variations in the ceiling or the 2x4.  

    I don't understand.  By making the studs longer than a perfect
    fit and pounding them into place, arent' you in effect raising the
    ceiling?  It sounds much less controlled (not to mention more damaging)
    than gradually jacking it up.  The point about removing the sheetrock
    and having everything close by before the wall is removed is well
    taken.  
    
    The adjustable post idea is also a good one.  Never even thought about
    it.  Can these posts be rented?
    
    George

    Probably can be rented. They cost somewhere around $15-18 each.
    Where are you located because I have 5 at home that are loanable
    (from a prev job I did at my last house). I live in Nashua, NH and
    work in LKG.
    
    Eric
    
    

    I do not know about rental, but the cost is under twenty dollars per,
    as low as 12.00 on sale, and I have seen them in the Want Ad for
    five per, worth the money if your planning any additional projects
    later on.  I have four and they all seem to be in use for something.

    re .6
    
    The water level works great and is easy to make.  One tip: put some
    red (or whatever color) food coloring in the water.  Makes it easier
    to see.
    
    Bob

    Ref -2. Water levels have been around a long time, some varities
    are 2 clear tubes that screw on the end of a garden hose and allow
    you to use as many hoses that you need, self contained units that
    hold the resevoir of water and a length of small diameter tubing.
    Spags sells my favorite, the Water boss, it has 2 graduated cylinders
    at the ends,so that you can take off measurements directly. There is 
    also an electronic version that beeps when you raise the hose to a 
    position level with its resevoir. Next best thing to a transit or
    dumpy level.
    							Chris

	Re:  .5

	I should have been clearer.  You do not pound the studs completely 
	upright, only pound them until they are snug and at an angle.  Since 
	you can not cut studs to a perfect fit, and there can be slight 
	variations in the ceiling and floor, it is better to have the studs 
	too long then too short.  If the studs are to short the ceiling can 
	settle.  The advantage of this method is that you can build the 
	temporary walls out of cheap material(2x4) and the bottom plate will 
	distribute the load across many joists, not concentrating it like the 
	jacks do.  

    Ah Ha!  Dawn Breaks.  I wasn't planning to leave the jacks in place.
    I was going to jack up the ceiling, build the temporary walls out
    of 2X4's and then remove the jacks letting everything sit on the
    temporary walls.  Once the beam was in place I would then rejack
    up the ceiling, remove the walls and let everything down to rest on the
    beam.  It seemed that having the walls in place would be more sturdy
    than the jacks if the supports had to be left in place for more
    than a day or 2.  Also, I want to be able to raise the ceiling about
    1/8 inch to allow for shrinkage of the beam since it will most likely
    be green.

Isn't it amazing how everyone had a different opinion?  I guess just to confuse
things I'll toss in mine as well.

What I did a couple of months ago when I removed a 12' section was to cut my 
supporting suds about 1/4" *shorter*!  Then I sat them on interlocking shingles
which I could tap together, thereby raising the stud.  I originally was going
to take a longer stud and pound it into place when my father-in-law said why
work so hard when the shingles will do it all for you.  Also, pounding can
crack plaster etc...

One key point though, if you have something like a 2X8 or 2X10 handy, use this
as a plate on the ceiling to better distribute the load and thereby reduce the
chance of cracking whatever is up there.

I guess me general feeling (and apparently other replies as well), is why bother
renting jacks when you really don't need them.  For what you'd spend on them
you could buy a pile pf 2X4's and when you're done you'd have the extra material
to do with as you please.

-mark

I almost forgot...

Whatever you do, be sure you understand how your ceiling is constructed - is 
there strapping onto which the sheetrock (if that's what you have) is nailed?
Be absolutely SURE than you're supporting something solid and not putting the
temporary wall up under thin plaster!  You've probably already thought of this
but I thought I'd toss it in just in case.

-mark

    The reference to using shingles is similar to the recommendation
    found in one of the Readers Digest DIY books.  Another thing I'd
    try and do is line up the temporary wall directly under the concealed
    strapping (removal of a bearing wall implies joists running
    perpendicular, strapping running parellel), and, if possible, the
    temporary studs under the ceiling joists.  
                                      
    Now, I've got a naive question: Why get a building permit?  Is it
    related to the cost of the job (Exceeds some amount?), or the
    complexity of the job, (bearing wall modification), or what?
    
    -Stan

    Forgive me if I missed this point in the preceding discussion,
    but be sure the *floor* you are jacking off of is solid.  If
    this is in the basement, no problem, but if you're on the first
    floor jacking up the first floor ceiling, you probably ought
    to put some support posts in the basement directly under where
    you plan to put the supporting posts, or walls, or whatever,
    on the floor above.

    Thanks for all the suggestions and tips so far.  Using the shingles
    as shims is certainly easier than trying to cut all the 2X4's to
    exact lengths.  Of course there's that new Ryobi miter saw that
    santa gave me :-).
    
    	As far as a building permit goes, the building inspector has
    proven to be an invaluable resource.  Generally, for non-structural
    work I don't bother but since I'm using an exposed wood beam I had a
    lot of questions about materials, stress loads, shrinkage, how-to
    etc.  So far I've taken up about 2 hrs. of his time getting answers.
    I suppose I could have hired an architect for a couple of hundred
    dollars to do the same thing but for $15 I have a person I can call
    on anytime and I have the piece of mind that I'm doing it right.
    
    George

    I may be paranoid or something but I've always taken out building
    permits for the stuff I've done.  The reason for this is that insurance
    companies have this annoying habit of not wanting to cough up the
    money when something goes wrong.  In my view, the building inspector's
    imprimatur will quickly shut up the insurance representative who
    tries to balk at making a payment.  Of course, I don't do things
    expecting something to go wrong and insurance to bail me out but
    it sure provides peace of mind (and of health, too, since my wife
    would skin me alive if something went wrong and the insurance co.
    refused to pay).
    
    Anyway, I'll be doing something similar to what George will be doing.
    I'll be replacing a header which allows the kitchen in the old part
    of the house to open up to the family room, which is an addition
    to the house.  The header has 4 support posts, 2 of which straddle
    the kitchen sink.  I'm looking to replacing that header with a steel
    I beam that will span approximately 15'.  The temporary wall will
    have the carry the load of the 2nd floor joists (which support the
    bathroom upstairs) plus the load of a section of the roof.  I'm
    planning to set up the temporary wall in the kitchen and will also
    set up a temporary support wall in the cellar, directly below the
    kitchen's temporary wall.  This, I think, should do it while I go
    around trying to remove the header and all the stuff surrounding
    it and replacing it with the steel beam.
    
    Needless to say, I'll be taking out a permit and will have the bldg.
    inspector come in and check out the whole show, including the adequacy
    of the size of the beam.  I'll be sure to sponge off as much info
    as I can from the guy.  
    
    If you folks out there have any handy advice that will help me in
    this task, I will greatly appreciate it.
    
    ALfonso

Sorry about not giving enough detail.

The room is about 12' X 10'.  It is an addition that was stuck to the
side of the house.   Right now it is used as a mudroom/storage with
no heat. I am planing to make it into a livable space by adding heat,
carpeting, etc.

The ceiling will have to be replaced.  Part of the ceiling is actually 
the soffit of the house (like I said above, an addition that was STUCK
to the side of the house).  The other part of the ceiling is sagging
and needs to be replaced anyway.   There are no load bearing walls
in the middle of the room.  There is no plumbing.  All electricity to
the room comes in through the ceiling.  The walls in good condition
and have fiberglass insulation in them.  I'm not sure about the
structure roof above the ceiling.  

I do not intend to touch the outside roof.  What I was planning to do
(and I'm sure this is very nieve) after removing the ceiling, was
one by one, remove each joist, cut it and move it up about 6" - 8".
Continue to do this for all the joists.  When the ceiling goes in, it 
would start at the top of the walls, follow the slope of the roof for 
about a foot or so and then finish off, parallel to the floor.

Thanks for the replies so far.   


Steve (System) Chenetz

    You may need sheetrock underneath the T&G because of fire code reasons.
    In Georgia, you have to have a fire proof barrier underneath paneling
    and T&G is just paneling (granted Very Nice paneling) and sheetrock is
    accepted as fireproof. 
    

    
    
      I have a question for those of you who have sprayed a ceiling:
    
     Is it possible to match an exsisting sprayed ceiling? I need to
    redo a 4'x8' section of my ceiling and I am hoping to match it in
    with the old ceiling. What do you think? Can I get away with this
    or am I going to have to redo the whole thing? ( 20'x40' )
    

    Can anyone recommend a good white ceiling paint, that spreads and
    covers easily?  My ceiling is semmi-rough.  Any suggestions would
    be appreciated....

SHERWIN WILLIAMS AND PAINT PADS, THATS ALL I HAVE EVER USED.
    I MADE A SMALL PLATFORM 24"X24" TO STAND ON TO MAKE IT EASIER.
    

    Ceilings / Muralo Paints - Easy to work with.
    
    Interior / Benjamin Moore
    
    Exterior / California Paints

    I agree with .2   All are good quality paints.
    
    I like California Ceiling White.
    
    I learned the hard way to buy the best paint you can find.  It is
    cheaper in the long run.
    
    Peter Duke
    

    You might also consider that some paints can serve as vapor barriers.
    I believe that the Benjamin Moore Alkyd White is in this category.
    Other alkyd paints (as compared to Latex-based paints) may also
    create a vapor barrier.                      
                                                 
    This would be a consideration if you were painting a ceiling just
    below an unheated, uninsulated attic, or if the attic insulation
    did not have a vapor barrier. 
    
    

    re .4

    Glidden makes a vapor barrier paint.  I've never used it, so I can't
    vouch for the quality.  I've seen in at Grossman's and PF O'Conner.

    I use Sears Best (scary huh ?) and have had great luck ! 
    
    I also used the "Wagner paint tube" rollers. These are rollers on the
    end of large tubes. You pull back on a plunger to suck up paint into
    the roller about 1/2 quart at a time. To operate, you press the plunger
    forward as you paint, feeding paint to the roller. Sort of a manually
    operated power roller. Gives you about 3' of handle also - good for
    ceiling work. 
    
    Saves A LOT of time reloading the roller. Comes complete with
    anti-spray shield for about $ 18. Get a longer nap (Wagner) roller
    cover if the ceiling is very rough. 

    I highly recommend Pratt & Lambert.  They make a special ceiling
    paint which is VERY splatter free.  My grandfather-in-law was a
    professional painter for a 'long' time and used nothing but P&L.
    
    We also have textured ceilings and have had good luck applying the
    paint with a 3/8" nap roller, I'm sure your success will depend on the
    'roughness' on your ceiling.  I don't think a paint pad would do
    a good job on a textured/rough surface.  Pads work fine when running
    along a groove, but cross a sharp bump and the paint will glob (does
    that make sense?).  If you do use a roller, be sure to buy an
    extension handle, it'll make it much easier for you.
    
    

    I agree with .7..... Use pratt and Lambert. It cost $$$ but it's
    the best paint I've used to date. 
    
    
    						Dave
    

    Do I need to take anything special into consideration when painting
    the ceiling above my tub/shower due to the humidity? The ceiling
    is 1/2" greenboard...
    
    Edd

    
      I just had somebody give me quote of plastering a cathedral ceiling
    using blue board with a low stucco finish for $1500 the room dimension
    are 14x14 this seems to be too high has anybody had any ceilings
    done lately?
    

    I just received the following quote:
    
    1.  Install blueboard on all walls and semi-cathedral ceiling.
        Room size is 14' by 17'.   Lots of windows, etc.                                
    
    2.  Plaster ceiling ( rough coat) and walls ( smooth coat)
    
    3.   Completely refinish ceilings in two bathrooms.
    
    Total Price    $ 850.00
                               
                                                          
    I live in Milford, Mass.  Contact me by mail if you want
    any further info.
    Sorry, I didn't ask for seperate prices.

    
    -1
    
    Use a exterior paint for the ceiling.  It'll hold up much better
    in a area such as the bathroom that has a lot of moisture.
    
    Cal.
    

    
    
    I looked in 1111 but found nothing on this. I weely did!
    
    shortly I will be painting the walls and ceiling in the
    stairway to the 2nd floor. I have 8ft ceilings so it is
    approx. 12ft from the middle step to the ceiling.
    
    I'd like to hear some ideas for makeshift staging that will
    allow me to reach the ceiling and the top parts of the
    walls.
    
    I have a 4ft and a 5ft step ladder and an 18ft extension
    ladder ...
    
    
    ace (who's not to crazy about high places)
    

    I taped a paint brush onto a broom handle when I had to do this one -
    it isn't much fun (except for my cats - they thouoght it was a riot,
    for some reason!).  You can buy rollers with very long extendible
    handles, but they are hard to control.  At least I was painting the
    ceiling the same color as it already was (white, of course), so a less
    than perfect job wasn't real obvious.  I didn't need to paint the
    walls, except in one little area that had a water stain, but I could
    reach it all from the steps.

    I took my extension ladder and leaned it from the steps against
    the wall (the one you see when you are walking down the stairs).
     This allowed me to climb the ladder and do the trim.  Then I was
    able to run a plank from the steps to the step of the ladder.  This
    allowed me to reach the wall and ceiling without too much trouble.
    
    The only difficulty I had was painting the spot where the ladder
    was.  For this I had to move the ladder.  I tried to lower the ladder
    enough that I could reach the area above it.  Here I was careful
    around the walls and ceiling.  Then with the ladder removed, I used
    a broom handle on the roller and did the rest of the area.
    
    Ed
    

    One way is too put a step ladder at the base of the stairs.  Slide
    planking between the rungs of the ladder and match it to a step
    in the stairs.  The goal is to have a level plank.
    
    attempt at picture to follow

				+---+    
          /\			|
         /  \		    +---+
        /    \ 		    |
      =/======\=========+===+   <---Plank 
      /        \        |
     /          \   +---+
    /            \  |  
    

    As an alternative, you can use the extension ladder as the plank.
    Not as safe because you can step thru the ladder and some ladders
    can NOT stand that kind of pressure on that direction of the ladder.    

    Here is a little different angle on the same thought.
    
    Put a part of the extenstion ladder on the stairs and rest it against
    the back wall of the upper stairway.  Slide a plank between the
    ladder and the stairs resting on top of a matching height step.
    Attempt at picture to follow:
    
       	        |    			
     Back Wall  |                   
     Stair well |\     	            
         -------+ \             +--------  <---Second Story Landing
                   \            |
                  ==\=======+===+  <---Plank
 	             \      |    
  Extentsion ------>  \ +---+    
  Ladder               \|    
    	            +---+    
		    |     <---Stairs
                +---+

    I forgot to add be sure and put padding on the the end of the extension
    ladder so that you do not mar/scatch the wall.

    
    
    .2 and .4 are they easiest and best way to do it.

    Paint the ceiling the same color as the wall and use a four foot broom
    stick as the roller handle. It was easy.

    - Attach can of paint to end of a stick long enough to
    reach the ceiling.
    - Ignite a cherry bomb and drop it into the can.
    - QUICKLY lift into place and close your eyes.

    Re: .5
    
    Pad the ladder by putting a pair of old socks on it.  In a pinch
    you can also use it to wipe your hands.
    
    

    I`m new to this note file and I think 2995.8 haves you on the  
    way it should be done.....GOOD GOING MAN FRIDAY..............
    
    The way is get someone else to do that part of the house.....
    
    
    
    
    

    
    
    Thanks for all your replies (even .8 but my 9 year old already had
    a similar one).
    The one that solves my problem is to put a step ladder on the 2nd
    floor landing and the extension ladder against the wall and a
    plank between them. Now I just have to find some planks.
    
    ace 
    

    Official staging planks, as used by the pros, are a special high grade
    of lumber.  They look beat up because they're used outdoors and get
    things spilled and dropped on them, but underneath they're free of
    knots and cracks.  They're fairly expensive (and HEAVY), but well worth
    it when you're betting your life on them.
    
    I have one (~12'?) in Maynard that you're welcome to borrow.

    I used a nifty ladder that works as an extension ladder, step ladder,
    or un-even surface ladder...
    
    
                           \  /_____ hinged
                           /\ \ 
                          /  \    
                         /    \ |\
                        /      \  \ - slides up and down
                       /        \  \|
    
    
    	and it fit on the stairs real nicely for stairwell painting...
    

    
                                              \
                                               \
                                                \ stand
                                                 \ here
                                                  \
                                                  /\ 
                                                 /  \
                                                /    \
                                               /     ___|
                                              /     |
                                             /   ___|
                                            /   |
                                           / ___|
                                          / |
                                         ___|
                                        |
                                     ___|
    

    It cost about $80 or $90 as I remember, but it was worth it.
Steve

I just re-painted my stairwell, too.  The walls and ceiling were a different
color, so getting a straight line was important.  Of course, I had to strip off
two layers of wallpaper, clean and patch the walls first!

I think the maximum reach I needed was about 9ft since the ceiling
follows the slope of the roof (this is a Cape).  Since it would take
many passes for this, I bought a $4 2ft wood stepladder and sawed off
the two back legs exactly one stair height.  This made a good, solid step
with enough reach to get everywhere.

When I painted, I painted the ceiling first, then taped the ceiling with
that "painting tape" (it's kraft paper with 1/2 of one side with the
3M "Post-It" glue).  Since I was at the end of my reach (and vision) the
tape was essential.

If you need more reach, you can get a 4ft wood stepladder and saw off
2 or three steps worth.  Or even a 6ft, but then the cost may get hard to
justify, since it will only be good on steps!
                     --tom

    I recall my father doing this job using an old wooden extension ladder,
    which he fed through the opening to the attic, which happened to be
    above the stairs, from the hallway at the top - making a slanting but
    stable painting platform - I didn't have this option since the pulldown
    to my attic is in the hallway rather than over the steps (which is a
    pretty silly place for it to be, but Dad didn't construct it there, it
    already was).
    
    This isn't a fun job, no matter how you do it, but it is a lot easier
    if the walls and ceiling are the same color like mine.

    
    
    gee thanks for all the encouragment !
    
    I keep looking at the task at hand and it looks like such an
    awesome one! As I stated I have 8' ceilings and the house is
    a Garrison Saltbox so the stairwell wall goes straight up to
    meet the ceiling (no slant). I have to paint both the walls
    and the textured ceiling(different colors). I don't have an
    attic opening there either.
    Another thought I had was to spike a double 2 X 4 to the wall
    you would face going down the stairs level with the 2nd floor
    landing and lay planks across there, this would extend the floor
    right across and being 6'3" I can reach everything !
    then just patch where the board was.
    
    ace
     

    re .16
    
    But why damage your walls?  If you have plaster, you could end up
    cracking the plaster and really have a mess.  The staging that has
    been described throughout here (in various cuts and colors) will
    work just fine and you will not have any additional patching to
    do.
    
    Ed..
    

well I guess I might as well chime in...

I have an arrangement identical to what you're describing and I've managed to
reach the ceiling with an ordinary stepladder.  What I did was put some blocks
on the one stair tread at the location of the ladder and raise it up around
9".  Then I simply leaned the ladder against the stair well and stood on the top
step.

				*WARNING*

	I wouldn't recommend this unless your around 6 feet tall AND don't get 
	nervious standing in a very precarious situation.  Bending down to 
	refill your brush can also be a real pain.  Fortunately, you only 
	really need to stand on the top run for around 5-10 minutes. 

As for cutting legs off a stepladder, DON'T!  This is a neat idea, but why not
simply take a couple of huncks of 2X4 and clamp one to each side of the ladder
with C-Clamps.

If all else fails, just buy an 8 foot stepladder (or better yet, rent one for
a couple of hours!).

-mark

    The latters mentioned in by 2995.13 are available at SPAGS, I have
    two, 6 foot and 8 foot. they will do about anything you ask.  Well
    worth looking at if you are close.

            <<< JOET::DUA1:[000000.NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;2 >>>
                         -< Better living through DIY >-
================================================================================
Note 3018.0     Drop ceiling in stairwell to make painting easier     No replies
BTO::CHARBONNEA_G                                    18 lines  14-FEB-1989 17:12
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    To the hard time person in 2995.......
    Why not rebuild the stairwell with a slant so if you got to do this
    again it won`t be that hard a job?
    You could use a few 2x4`s and some ceiling tiles the color you want.
    I for one don`t like painting let alone doing it the way and I think
    of if I got to do this again later.
    A slanted ceiling looks more like the 1980`s,or do you want the
    old look.
    If your walls have place were the ceiling joints to the ceiling
    down stairs,build a shelf for small things and for you to place
    a plank for the future.
    If you have the shelf right you can put up a floor across it fast
    so you can work from it with a small ladder and take it down at
    well.
    
    Use your extention ladder from shelf to stairs with 2x6`s---good
    and strong.
    

    I am doing a  kitchen ceiling over and I had to scrape and sand
    down the old paint to be somewhat uniform well the old paint is
    a litlle bit darker than the plaster and it looks like hell after
    2 coats. somebody my grandfather knows said to use spackle, now
    I never heard of this but I'll try anything once. does spackle come
    in powder and can you mix it so it is very thin and roll it on.
    any others suggestions welcome.
    
    paul

    yes spackle comes either pre-mixed or in powder.

    re: .6, .7
    
    But it doesn't sound to me that spackling is the solution to this
    problem.  Spackling is normally done to fill holes, not to skim coat an
    entire ceiling.  As far as I know, any spackle you get in powder form
    is going to be old technology, and will suffer from shrinking and
    cracking over an area that large.  The premixed stuff would be too
    expensive to use on that large an area.  I would guess that joint
    compound would be better for that purpose. 
    
    Wouldn't a good solid primer or base paint really be the correct
    solution?  You may need to go with a better quality paint -- something
    guaranteed to hide what's underneath.  
    
       Gary

    I can live with the primer but what do I do with the large and small
    areas that have been scraped away the ceiling right now looks like
    a map. I just thought that if the spackle was thin enough I could
    just brush it on. 
    
    paul

    You could use something like texture paint to get a uniformly rough
    finish on the whole ceiling. It may or may not stick well
    to your new paint: you'd proably have to try it out.

    it is in a kitchen and I do not wanty a texture ceiling. talk about
    making somebodies life miserable, your looking at painting it at
    least once a year. I'll try to skim coat it with something.
    
    thanks
    paul

    I just helped some friends redo their bathroom.  They had similar
    problems with their ceiling.  One friend in the group, who is a
    carpenter by trade, said they were plaster ceilings, and had he
    tried a heat gun?  They hadn't, but did.  The heat gun got some
    old gooey stuff off (is that paint?), and they got back down to
    the plaster and started fresh.
    
    Perhaps you have the same situation?
    
    Elaine
    

    
    Did you try sanding it?

    The heat gun idea might work. sanding hardly made a dent. I think
    I will try that this weekend. The paint has been up there for at
    least 20 years and probably oil based or alkyd, There is no horse
    hair plaster underneath. thanks paul

    My impression from .6 was that your only problem is a difference in
    color - something about the old, un-scraped paint being a different
    color from the spots where scraping exposed the plaster, and that
    difference was showing through two coats of paint.
    
    If that's the case, then the right fix is primer, better-quality paint,
    and/or more coats of paint.  Paint should be able to cover color
    differences, and if yours can't, get different paint.
    
    Spackling, skim-coating, heat gun work, and more scraping are only
    appropriate for various types of problems with texture.

    
    Sanding hardly made a dent?  What grit were you using?  Did you
    try a palm sander or doing it by hand?
    

    I just reread the base note, and I have a question.  Our house is
    30 years old, and when I went to paint the ceilings, I found out
    that the original "paint" was not paint at all, but a process to
    make the skim coat look like paint.  It's called Calcimne (?), and
    if there is a layer of paint on top of it, that layer will stick
    for a while, but will eventually peel.  If you try to paint over
    the first coat, your paint and the first coat will peel right off.
    So is your ceiling treated like this?  If it is, then if you or
    anyone else have put paint over it then you have to scrape. :-(
    Otherwise you can mix up a STRONG HOT batch of TSP, and wash it
    off.  It's not fun work, but it will come off and the next coat
    of paint will stick.  I just finished a bedroom like this, and it
    turned out good.  I did put a primer on the ceiling before the paint.
    
    Ken (Three rooms down and only 5 to go.... :-( :-( :-(

We used Muralo's "Calcimine Cover" ceiling paint.   It is an oil 
based paint.  Went right over the calcimine, is a nice white, and has 
not budged for 2 years.

Smells like an oil based paint, but beats scrubbing the ceiling by a 
long shot.

    
     Painting over Calcimine may be easier in the short run, but the
    paint that is put on over the calcimine is ONLY stuck to the calcimine.
    If the ceiling EVER gets wet, for more than a VERY short time -
    this year, next year, or 20 years from now, the calcimine will
    dissolve. Since the paint is ON the calcimine, and the calicimine
    is dissolved, the paint will peel - and in VERY big pieces. In fact,
    a good way to strip a ceiling that has calcimine which is painted
    over, is to apply wallpaper paste to the ceiling. The paste holds
    the moisture on the ceiling for a longer period of time than plan
    water. The calcimine under the paint softens, and the paint bubbles
    off! I have seen paint over calcimine peel from just quickly WASHING
    the ceiling!
    
    					Kenny

    just to let everybody know I picked up spackling powder mixed rather
    thin an applied it by brushing along all the edges of the old paint.
    then sanded it smooth worked great applied a coat of primer and
    a fresh coat of paint looks great, it can be done     
    
    paul

I have the same problem (as note 553) in my Kitchen. The house was built in 1940
everything is plastered. The ceiling is peeling quite badly and I have feathered
the areas that seem to be adhereing but after painting, areas that have not 
begun to peel, start. I am planning on blasting out an outside wall in a few
years (at which time I will want a 'tin cieling') so I do not want to install 
a new ceiling now.

My question then is; Can the paint be stripped off the ceiling down to the
plaster?  I would then seal ther plaster and paint. (my guess is that there are 
5-7 coats of paint on the ceiling. The plaster (under the paint) is in excellent
condition. Please, if anyone out there has another solution or answer other than
ceiling replacement, I'm anxious to hear from you.
							DIY'r 
									Roger

	First up, I'd like to comment on how usefull this notes file was 
	regarding my plastered ceiling in my kitchen. As a result, I'm back 
	for more! 	(I have cancelled my subscription to handyman 
			 magazine as a result of this conference) 

	I have searched the notes file using the keywords ceiling and plaster	
	and have not been able to find the answer to this question.
	I have steamed the calcimine off my ceiling and now am at the plaster.
	In the process of stripping the calcimine with a 4" razor blade, I
	have lots of nicks in the plaster. What I would like to know is, with
	the ceiling properly washed and prepared, CAN I SKIM COAT THE CEILING?

	If I can, this would save me lots of time as the other alternative
	would be to attack it with a wide blade and joint compound.	

	Also,
	Where do I find the contractors reference notes? I have searched with
	no luck. I need a good plasterer and electrician. (I'm juggling 
	all kind of projects here!) tis the season isn't it?

	thanks alot!
				Roger 

    I've done an *awful lot* of old ceilings and plaster and find
    that you don't need to skim the plaster. It's much easier to
    patch with a putty knife or, if there are so many nicks that you
    think you'd go nuts, do two thin coats with a squeegy (sp?). If
    you need to, wipe with water later.
    
    I once had an 18th Centruy wall that had been used as a dart board
    and this worked great. After two years, you still couldn't see a trace
    of the dart damage. (I used wallboard compound, but other stuff might
    work, too.) The squeegy lets you cover a pretty large area and even
    out cracks, general bulges, etc.

    I have a ceiling that I'd like to try this on.  But all my previous
    patching work has just been with a putty knife.  If I use "wallboard
    compound" and a squuegy (the rubber bladed thing I have for my car
    windows?????), is there anything I should know?  How do you keep from
    getting lines at the end of the squeegy?  How thick should the coat
    be?  (The problem with the ceiling is that it is slightly uneven all
    over, due to the house settling over time I guess.  I patched the cracks
    with spackle a couple of years ago and it hasn't recracked, but the 
    patches show and I'd liek a smooth finish.)
    

re .0:
>	I have steamed the calcimine off my ceiling and now am at the plaster.

    How did you do this (I don't think any of the calcimine notes mention
    steaming)?  Just a wallpaper steamer and a scraper?  How fast is it?
    I've tried a solution of Spic and Span, and found it very frustrating,
    even when I used saturated paper towels taped to the ceiling.

	RE .3

	I steamed the calcimine off with a walpaper steamer with a large mit.
	It takes about 45 seconds for the steam to loosen up the calcimine
	before you scrape it. (I was also going therough several coats of paint
	so in some spots you would have to go over it twice. You need to use
	a 4 inch razor blade scraper (its called a wallpaper scraper in the 
	stores.. made by HYDE) It will probably go much quicker than the washing
	method. I did a 14 X 22 ceiling in about 8 hours. you should have at
	least 2 people (one scraping the other steaming) 3 would be great 
	so you can switch off taking a break. Its real hard labor!
	
	good luck
			Roger

    I've used very hot water and DIRT-EX to remove calcimine. You have to
    keep the water hot and rinse several times. A drop cloth on the floor 
    let's you slog it on, which is what you need to do. If you don't get it
    *all* off, paint or even skimmed on wallboard compound will come off.
    Not very pleasant stuff.
    
    Anyway, I use a putty knife to glob wallboard compound onto the
    squeegy. I lay on about 1/2" the length of the squeegy, but leave the
    last 1" or so free of mud. That seems to give me fewer seams, so
    there's
    less washing up to do later. My squeegy is about 15" wide and I use a
    smaller one for tight places.
    
    The technique works well if you're doing large-ish areas, but it
    doesn't work really well if the entire wall or ceiling is sagging
    and cracked. If you thought of using the squeegy as a way to really
    skim coat the plaster, you've got the wrong tool.
    
    And, yes, by squeegy I mean the kind with the rubber blade that's
    used to clean windows. But unlike cleaning windows, you don't want
    to apply lots of pressure. Use enough pressure to float the compount
    into the cracks, but not so much as to have the rubber dip into the
    cracks and scoop out the compound on a second wipe.

    What do I do to skim coat the entire ceiling?  It's not sagging, and
    the cracks seems to be "permenantly" filled by the spackling I did
    a few years ago, but the surface is somewhat uneven.  It seems to be
    very stable, so all I need is to level it.  I take it I put a thin
    layer of wallboard compound on with what, one of those giant putty knives?
    

    re .6:
    
    I tried that a while back and it worked pretty good.  Picked up one
    of those really wide (almost a foot) flexible spreading knives and a
    bunch of wallboard compound.  Raised up the dips till it all looked 
    smooth to eyeball, then did a bit of touchup sanding once it dried.
    Came out looking pretty nice.  You have to work the compound a good
    bit to get all the air bubbles out though.
    
    /Dave

    There are a couple of "fasteners" protruding slightly from a hallway
    ceiling in my house.  There used to be a smoke detector there, and it
    was held in place by screws that went into these fasteners.  Now
    that I've moved the detector, how do I get the fasteners out?  They
    are small but very noticeable cylinders not much bigger than the diameter
    of the screws. They protrude about a 1/4 inch down from the ceiling.
    I am assuming they are some sort of gizmo that expands behind the
    ceiling surface once it's installed, so I hesitate to resort to more
    brute force lest I bring down several square inches of plaster with
    the fasteners.  They protrude too far to just spackle over them.
    

    1. Put the smoke detector back up there.
    
    2. Paint the cylinders the same color as the ceiling and forget them.

    re.0 lightly hammer the fasteners that protrude into the ceiling and
    then spackle over them. 
                
    Dave Carlson

    re - 1
    
    I was thinking on the same lines, but file/sand down the ends of
    the fasteners and then spackle over them, or drive them totally
    through the sheetrock and repair the small holes they will leave.
    
    I still like the responce by -2 who said to replace the smoke alarms.

    The alarm has been moved to a better place.
    

>    The alarm has been moved to a better place.
    
So put up a fake one.  An alarm looks like it's SUPPOSED to be there.  :^)

Paul

    Sounds like these are plastic screw anchors in which case you can
    either file the heads off as suggested in an earlier response or
    use a drill that is about the same diameter as the protruding anchor
    head. Just drill the head off (same as filing) and then knock the
    anchor inward until it falls inside your ceiling. The remaining
    hole is likely to be about a 3/16 - 1/4" which can easily be filled
    in SEVERAL applications of spackle. The first application will likely
    get sucked in a little during drying.  If the ceiling is textured,
    you can blend the spackling by taking a small paint brush, wet the
    tip and "dab" the wet spackle patch gently with the brush tip. This
    will texture the patch.  

    
      They're probably plastic; so just cut the tops off with a razor
    scraper and the rest will then push into the ceiling. Then you can
    spackle and paint just like any other hole.
    
       I *used* to hammer them in, but it can easily cause more damage
    in the area - I wouldn't do that.
    
    					Kenny

    re: .6
    
    The latest in spackling compounds don't shrink.  One dab of spackling
    should work just fine.  
    
       Gary

    
    So to re-cap. Drill them as .6 points out, and then spackle them
    with NON-SHRINKING spackle. Then blend it in as .6 points out.
    
    Sounds great !
                   
    Disclaimer :
    
     You might have to paint the ceiling. If the ceiling is dirtier
    than the spackle you may have spots that stand out.
    
     Now were still not sure here if the anchors are metal or plastic.
    Most likly plastic because they protrude like all good plastic anchors
    do. For those in the future that have to deal with metal anchors.
    You have a few choices also, spackle over them and blend as in .6,
    or tighten the screw till the anchor heads are pulled in a below
    the surface of the sheat rock where the can be totaly covered with
    spackle.
    
     One last thought, most of the plastic anchors I've worked with
    can be pulled back out with a pair of pliers and just turning them
    out gently, then they can be filled and spackled and painted to
    match.
    

    If the spot needs to be color blended afterwards try dabbing it
    with a wet teabag after the spackle is dry, go easy, the tea works
    quickly. This worked well after I touched up a cople of holes in
    a textured ceiling, my wife couldn't find them and when they finally
    were painted they did not show any bleed thru of the tea stain.
    
    
    TPV

I've said this before, and I'll say it again...

If these are the 'standard' plastic anchors, just screw a screw slightly into
them (just enough to not pull out, and if it does pull out, screw it in another
turn) and pull.  With less effort than it'll take to damage the ceiling, the
anchor will pull out in one piece.

This method has *never* failed me.

Pete

    Re: .11
    
    This is a lath and plaster ceiling.  Have you tried the just pull
    method on one of those?
    

    
    Lath ??? Lots of thin stips of wood that has the plaster applied
    to them. Is this horsehair plater ? How old is this house ? 50+
    
    Any event sounds like lots of great ideas, drill, sand, pull, twist,
    hammer. Sounds like we've just about beaten this to death. Which
    method do you like? and let us know how it turns out.

In answer to note 3258.12, yes.  I had a 150-year-old house with horsehair
plaster throughout and many of these things in use (not by me, I don't think
they work well in that situation).  As a matter of fact, I think taking them
out using the 'pull' method was easier then than it is now that I'm in a
30-year-old house.

Are we talking about items that look like this?

             
            <====\ /====>          < Anchor behind the wall
     ============| |=============  < Wall
               --   --             < Plastic 'Plate'
                  ^
                  |----------------< Screw goes in here

My interest is that I have 50 to 70 of them sprinkled liberally to hold
a previous owners desk/shelving combination.  I certainly want the easiest
method of removing them.  My walls are conventional wallboard.

Lee

    If they are plastic, take a drill bit and drill them out and then
    spackle the holes, and repaint.  You will have many holes to do
    and it may take a couple of hours to finish, but you will have a
    nice, clean, "smooth" wall.
    
    Have fun...
    
    Pat

    re .15

    What I've done in the past with molly bolts is carefully scribe around
    the outside of them with an Exacto knife, then drive the bolt *into* to
    wall cavity, rather than trying to pull it (expanded anchor ribs and
    all) back out. Makes for a smaller hole to spackle.

    A slight digression, on acquiring these plastic anchors.

    I would like to find a supply of the plastic anchors, OTHER THAN
    the stores (Sears, most hardware stores) where they are packaged
    12 to a box, or somesuch small quantity.  No store seems to know
    where I could get these in quantities of say 100, 250.  Do any of
    you know of a way to order them in quantity?  I live in Nashua
    by the way.

    This note has some good ideas on removing the anchors.  I may try
    several.

    Thanks - Lee

    Lee,
    
    We have overlooked one of the simplest methods available to you
    for the removal of the anchors.  You have a 2-year old, give her
    a hammer and tell her to have at it...I'm sure your wife won't mind.
    
    Lotsa 8^)
    
    Will Builders Square give you a break on a quantity of these things?
    
    See you tomorrow ??
    
    Al
    

re: .18 

I have boxes of at least 50 (anchors and screws included) that are available at
Somerville Lumber (at least they were when I bought them).

Pete

This was discussed several years ago and I'm surprised nobody put in the real
answer.  What it looks like when is place is a washer sitting over a hole,
right? All you do is carfully pry up an edge of the washer enough to grab it
with some pliers and it will easily break off (I've gotta believe it's by
design since it's so easy).  Now you simply push what's left into the wall and
proceed with your favorite spackle.  

As I said before, this is the ONLY way to go...

-mark

    
    Opening up a long-dormant note here, but I have a question about
    ceiling materials for a screened-in porch.
    
    I'm planning to put a shed roof over a PT deck.  It will come out 10'
    over the deck from the house, and the question is - what to cover the
    roof joists with for finishing?
    
    I've seen tongue-in-groove pine ($$$), and have heard suggestions for
    aspenite and T-111.  We're after something simple as a finished
    product.
    
    Can anyone suggest other sheet products which might be appropriate?

    Mine has a plywood ceiling (I assume exterior grade) that has been 
    painted.  It looks fine, although certainly not fancy.  We don't spend
    too much time looking up when we're out on the porch. 8-)
    
    Bob

    I used 1/4" luan and painted it. I would also suggest running firring
    strips to ensure that the ceiling will be level. 

    I installed an new roof and ceiling on my porch two summers ago.
    The original porch has a homosote ceiling, which I hated.  I replaced
    it with latticework.  Before you install it, I would recommend painting
    the inside of the roof a dark color so the ceiling joists "disappear"
    behind the latticework.  I painted the lattice parchment to match
    my window trim.  I also wired up the ceiling with outlets and installed
    an inexpensive ceiling fan before I enclosed the ceiling with the
    lattice work.  The lattice ceiling gives the porch an airy feeling
    and the fan helps keep the roof from holding in an heat.
    
    This was one of the better ideas I've had for my porch and we've
    been most happy with the results.
    
    Chuck

    You guys sure like complicated solutions.
    
    Use 5/8" T1/11 as roof sheathing - apply with the groove (good)
    side down.   You now have sheathing and a nice looking visible-joist
    roof on the inside all in one application.   Spray paint/stain the
    joists the same color.

>                           -< I'd recommend lattice >-

Chuck,
Is your porch enclosed? If not, don't you get a rich diversity of 
insect life above the lattice?

John H.

    Re: .8
    Yes, my porch is enclosed with screening.  It was enclosed before
    when I had the Homosote ceiling.  Now that was Bug-City, Caprenter
    ants destroyed the entire porch from the ceiling joists upward.
    
    This is a bid improvement.
    
    Chuck

We are getting ready to redo a bathroom.  Running through the bathroom is a 
large air duct.  Covering the air duct is a thin layer of what I assume is 
plaster.  This thin layer is peeling quite badly in places.  

My questions:

1. Is it likely it is plaster, or is it something else?  Our house is roughly
   32 years old.

2. Assuming it is plaster, are there any tricks or things to watch out for 
   when replastering or patching over metal ductwork?

3. Any other options? 


Thanks,

Clay

    I recently remodeled my bathroom and applied a coat of latex paint to the
    ceiling. During the process of painting with a roller some of the
    existing paint peeled off down to the sheet rock. Other cracks and flaking
    has occurred in other spots as well. I have the following questions:
    
    Is there a particular type of paint (mildew resistent) I should use for
    the bathroom ceiling?
                 
    
    Is a bathroom ceiling fan the end to my problems? How diificult is one to
    install?
    
    
    Thankyou for help.
    
    Rick

This is the structural side of the question from the previous note (3420).

To recap.

We are having an addition built consisting of a garage with a family room
above. The family room has a cathedral ceiling. Our contractor submitted the
plans and received the permit before starting construction. Shortly afterwards
the town (Westford, MA) got a new building inspector. This new one in the short
time that he has been here has acquired a reputation of failing everything, and
sure enough at the inspection at the end of framing he failed the construction
because the ceiling does not have a central beam across the roof.

Now, I tend to trust my contractor and to think that our new inspector is just
a bureaucrat. (I will not mention the terms that my contractor used.) My
contractor talked with the building inspector in Chelmsford, and both he and
the previous Westford inspector thought that this style of construction was OK.
However I know nothing whatsoever about structural engineering - it is possible
that the inspector is actually protecting my best interests. Do any of you have
any experience or opinion?

The ceiling is about 18' high with 2x10 rafters, a 2x12 ridge pole and 2x6
ceiling ties near the apex.

Tim
  

    
    
    
    My next door neigbor has the same exact construction, family room,
    2 car garage under, and a couple of skylights one facing front and
    one facing back. The last step to the framing of the room was to
    place a beam under the ceiling ties, and toe nail each tie into
    the beam. I would guess it provides some extra support. The building
    inspector (wilmington) cam in or inspection and it was the first
    thing he looked at. The beam also has a ceiling fan hanging from
    it. Its works great because he has a large fireplace that he uses
    in the winter and all the hot air rises to the ceiling. The fan
    pushes the warm air back down. I would also think that having the
    beam at the peak would eliminate an uneven peakline in the plaster
    that I've seen in many houses, and also allow for expansion and
    contraction of the roof behind the beam, which if it was a plastered
    ceiling it might show.
    

All resolved now. See 3420.5

    (After running a keyword search on ceilings and not finding what I am
    looking for, I am posting this.  However, if someone can direct me to
    some related NOTES (if they already exist), I would appreciate it.)
    
    The ceiling in one of the rooms seems to have a light white coating on 
    it, one that scrapes off fairly easily with a putty knife.  Somewhat
    powdery when scrapped.
    
    Since we want to paint, what is the coating, and do we need to first
    remove it prior to painting, or just paint on top of it?  If it has to
    be removed, how should we go about doing so?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Art

    If it comes off with water, it's probably the dreaded calcimine.
    (See 1111.whatever for info on removal).  Whatever it is, if it
    comes off easily, you've got to get it off before painting.

    I removed my horsehair plaster ceiling - it had problems. 
    A "construction crew" of two installed a plaster board
    ceiling - well they put up each panel but never returned
    to finish taping and plastering over the screws. It's been
    two weeks (sound familiar?) and I don't want to wait any
    longer. My budget is limited, so I'm planning to finish
    the job myself, with a friend. Can anyone tell me what I
    have to do? I think I can figure out the taping part, but
    do I have to put a skim coat of something on the ceiling
    or can I just paint over it? The surface is like a gray
    cardboard.
    
    Also, I haven't paid for any of the materials or the
    labor yet. Thank heavens. How should I handle payment
    if the "construction crew" comes back and asks for
    money? Also, I cleaned up after them each time. They
    never bothered to do anything as far as cleaning up
    after themselves. 
    
    Thanks!!!

I've looked around in Home_work and haven't found what I'm looking for, so I'll
post it as a new note. As a winter project (I'm a strange puppy), I'd like to
open up my bedroom ceiling to create a cathedral ceiling with one major
difference. I have a full attic above the room, so I want to open the ceiling
up to the roofline and create a balcony overhanging the bedroom, which will
have a stair case up to the balcony area and give me access to a as-yet un-
finished attic room. A quasi-drawing follows:


                     x
                   x   x
                 x       x  /___________ roofline
               x xxxxxxxxx x\
             x             x x
           x               x   x
         x  /__new ceiling x     x
       x    \              x   /___x_____ cathedral ceiling area for bathroom
     x                     x   \     x    (already exists)
   x x  balcony____\ Xxxxxxx          x
     x             /       x          x x
     x                     x          x    x=walls,roof
     x                     x   bath   x    X=beam
     x                     x          x
     x --------19'6"------ x          x    Due to limitations on VT240, drawing
     xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx        is not to scale
     x                               x
     x         first story           x


     The existing ceiling is hung from joists supporting the attic floor and
are attached to joist hangers from the beam shown on the inside and sit on top
of the outer wall on the outside. The existing joists are 2 X 10 and the
rafters are also 2 x 10.

What I want to do is remove the joists that run from the beam in the attic to
the front wall, so that the ceiling can be opened up, re-enforce the rafters
where necessary, and open the ceiling up to the roofline. The balcony would
actually be the portion of the attic floor running rearward of the beam up to
the portion of the 2 floor bath that has the cathedral ceiling already.

I plan to contact an architect to get the exact requirements for the above, but
would appreciate any input from someone who has done this before. Thanks for
any info.

Eric

    I think it depends on the dimensions involved.  Assuming your house is
    conventionally framed, the joists below the attic floor serve the
    purpose of keeping the roof load from pushing the walls out.  (They
    complete a triangle formed by the two roof slopes plus the attic
    floor).  Some of the considerations involved include the roof pitch
    as well as the width of the area involved (i.e. the number of joists
    involved).   The architect may recommend either collar ties and/or
    some additional stiffening system in the wall (the wall the roof snow load
    is trying to push out).  Maybe nothing is required depending on the
    above and/or the configuration of the other framing in the area.

re:.1

I was going to say the same thing about the collar ties, in fact I was going to 
lock the note and point him to one about removing ceilings and the need to put 
in collar ties, but then I noticed that the drawing shows that the cathedral 
ceiling in the bathroom is already there, which means that the attic floor over 
the bedroom cannot be functioning as a collar tie.

Paul

    Met with the architect this morning to discuss this. The way we're
    going to get around removing the floor joists (which are also the
    effective collar ties for the roof) is to run a new beam below the
    ridge beam, which will pick up the roof load for the 14 odd feet that
    will be opened up, and run a support down from both ends of the new
    beam. Since my stairs are all in a vertical line on one side of the
    beam, the supports are there down to the basement main beam. Though the 
    lally columns in the basement are fairly close to the point load area, he 
    suggested that I add a new support right at that load area. So one side of 
    the beam will carry its load down via the outside wall and the other side 
    via interior load bearing walls. Once the beam is in, the floor joists will
    no longer have to carry that outward load from the roof.
    
    The architect will be getting back to me with some formal drawings for
    this and possibly another project in this area (a contemporary dormer
    which will allow mucho light in in the southern exposure of the roof,
    but will blend in to the house's style).
    
    Eric

    As a continuation of .3, does anyone have an idea of what Architects
    get these days for that type of design work?
    
    Eric

    This note hasn't been opened for a year, but it seems like the best
    topic for me to put my question under:
    
    My house has done its settling and due to the amount of STUFF the
    previous owners kept in the kitchen cabinets and dining room cabinets the
    kitchen floor is slightly bowed.  More noticable is the fact the the
    cabinet/ceiling joint shows a crack and floor to ceiling dining
    cabinets have shifted down almost 1/4"".
    
    The inspector suggested that in the basement we place a 4X4X? across
    the kitchen floor beams and secure it up with an adjustable lally cloumn.
    We should crank up the lally one turm every week until the dining room 
    cabinet is back in place.
    
    I'm wondering if I should wait until spring when things are thawed out.
    Would the beams be more supple then?  Or is it best to do now that everything
    is the area is frozen stiff? 
    
    aud...
    
    

    RE: .16, I think that a full turn/day is too much. When I jacked a
    floor in my previous house, I did 1/4 turn every few days so that
    nothing would crack. Its slow, but you'll get better results.
    
    Eric

    Has anyone ever seens plans for "trey ceilings". I would love to build
    one in my master bedroom but need the plans to do so. For those who are
    not familiar with this, it is not a "cathedral" or "vaulted" ceiling. It
    is hard to explain what it looks like. Picture a square are centered in
    the middle of the bedroom ceiling. this area is higher up (maybe 6-10
    inches) than the rest of the ceiling. A smaller square is raised higher
    than the first. I live in Georgia and this is very popular in new homes. I
    had one in my last house but just moved to a 20 year old house and I want
    to give it a little pizzaz! I gave an exmple of squares but the shapes
    do very.
                                                 

    RE: .16, 

	Unless the floor beams are wet or have ice on them; the time of
year to do this project will not matter. Dry wood is not more brittle cold
than warm. I would only crank it up the slower rate as stated in .17.

    Bill

    	Hi, I know just what you mean, my son just bought a new home
    in Powder Springs, Ga. and I believe the master br has one of those ceilings
    and I agree that they do look very nice.  In fact I may try to do
    it in my cottage that we're doing over now in Plymouth,Ma.
    
    

    It is just standard framing.  I thought about doing this in my house
    and have included the steps here which seem the easiest way to get
    a finished product.

    Draw an outline on the existing ceiling.  Transfer these measurements
    to the ceiling joists in the attic.  Remove any insulation and re-route
    any utilities which pass over the area.  Build a support for the ceiling 
    1 foot back from the "tray area" towards the supporting wall.   Cut and
    remove sheetrock from tray area.  Cut the ceiling joists in new open
    area.  Box in the hole with 2x same size as ceiling joists. Install
    diagonal rafters joined to the existing joists up to the point where
    the tray will become level.  Box in upper hole.  Install new ceiling
    joists.  In essence, you are creating a new roof with rafters inside
    your existing roof.  Sheetrock the new framing.  Replace insulation in
    new framing.  Remove supports for ceiling.

    Visit some new developments and look at how some are built.  Most John
    Wielen (sp?) homes have the tray ceilings.  

    If you can't find any information, contact me and I will get you the
    builders name and contact information from my dad, he has a 3 tray
    ceilings in his home.

    Probably the best way would be to get a visual concept by visiting
    a new development. I have 4 treys in my home yet each one was
    built differently due to their shape and sizes. most homes in
    N. Fulton are open and you can go take a look. Best bet is to get one
    before they do the sheet rock.  My builder was FUQUA and he has a
    number of homes in progress in Windward, Aviary and Tuxford (all
    in Alpharetta).
    
    

    Help.  This is in regard to textured ceilings but really it's about
    repainting (if possible).  Hope I'm in the right place!!
    
    I swear that every home in California has textured ceilings and they
    are uuuuggggggllllllyyyyy.  Picture a ceiling put up 15 years ago
    and then sprayed with small curd cottage cheese.  The ceiling has
    now been drying for 15 years.  The cottage cheese is petrified and
    all you have to do it touch it or sneeze close to it and large pieces
    fall on you.  They make a mess on the rug.
    
    Short of pulling the whole ceiling down, is there anything I can do
    to get rid of the cottage cheese?  Is there some kind of stripper
    that can be applied and then you scrape this stuff off??  Is there
    a way to spray paint it so it is permanently SEALED in place??
    
    It never snows in So. Calif. except when I try to remove cobwebs 
    from my ceiling.  Then it snows in my home, all over the rug and me.
    
    Sandie

re-.1
That's perlite even though it does look alot like cottage cheese it is non-dairy
... My parents recently un-textured their ceilings the proceedure is
get some big drop cloths a 4" wide putty knife and scrape till you're done.
Not a fun job....


-j

    re: -.2
    
    Boy, are you in luck!  You have a removable textured ceiling.  We did
    too.  We learned the hard way what the easy way is to remove them. 
    Take a plant mister filled with water.  Spray the water onto about
    a square yard of the ceiling.  Take about a 3 inch putty knife and
    scrape off the stuff holding a plastic bucket under the putty knife
    to catch the scrapings.  We got to where we could do this without
    even putting down a drop cloth.  Don't get the stuff too wet or the
    plasterboard will tear.  With a little practice you'll get to where
    you can tell how much is the right amount.  Don't leave any residue
    behind, ceiling paint won't stick to it, it will flake off.
    
    					- Vick

Reminder:

	If it's really 15 years old, be aware that back in the '70s they
put asbestos in that stuff.  It only looks like dried vomit.

-Bob

     PSE help before they write lock me or delete this, I have a guy
    comeing out this weekend to wallpaper my bathroom  and want to 
    get it fixed! 
    
    -Dean
              <<< SERENA::DUA2:[NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;1 >>>
                         -< Better living through DIY >-
================================================================================
Note 3702.0                      Ceiling problem                         1 reply
DELNI::MCGORRILL "Its your turn anyway.."            10 lines   6-FEB-1990 17:15
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    My bathroom ceiling looks like it was made from a textured paint which
    was sprayed. Around the vent moisture has seeped in and about
    a square foot has peeled off.  I painted the whole ceiling over 
    the white ceiling paint only the flat area looks very bad. 
    
    My question, is there a way I can easily patch the area with 
    a textured paint with a brush and then paint over, or am I stuck
    with having to remove entirely the old paint?
    
    tx Dean
    

>< Note 639.16 by DELNI::MCGORRILL "Its your turn anyway.." >
>                              -< ceiling help!! >-

Dean, I went through this about 2 years ago. My sprayed ceiling was starting 
to peel around the bathroom fan. What I did was to get a drop cloth, 
putty knife and then proceeded to strip the ceiling clean. You would be 
surprised on the ease in which that stuff came off. About 15 minutes and it 
was clean. I then rejointed the ceiling, primed and painted (with a mildew 
inhibitor).


Ross

     Tx Ross, panics over.  I gave this notesfile plenty of qio's searching
    some note entries and nothing really applied.  I took the advice
    from a somerville lumber salesman. 
    
     First I scraped off any loose material.  Next I applied a alcohol
    based stain block.  Next I applied a similarly grained textured paint
    over the entire ceiling, building up a bit more over the old
    flat area.  Came out great, never know it had peeled before!
    
    -tx Dean

>< Note 639.18 by DELNI::MCGORRILL "Its your turn anyway.." >
 >                                   -< tx >-

Looks like you lucked out Dean. Mine came off so easy, I doubt any textured
repair would of lasted long, (with all that humid air).

Ross

Soon, I'll be sheetrocking a ceiling.  The house is 94 years old

The distance between the ceiling joists, that once held up a plaster and lath
ceiling, are a mixture of 16" and 17".  I've heard that if the distance is
greater than 16" you screw up strapping then screw the sheetrock to the 
strapping.  

But, for a meager inch, is it worth putting up the strapping?

Opinions?

Thanks

Steve

    I never heard about strapping distances greater than 16 inches, but
    have several other reasons for doing so.  Strapping lets you level
    the ceiling with shims (might be useful in a 94 yo house).  Strapping
    gives you a wider target for the screws than does a 2 by whatever.
    Strapping provides a complete backing board behind the seams. 
    Strapping serves like blocking or bracing to keep the joists from
    twisting.  Strapping increases the ceiling R value by providing dead
    air space.
    
    With time, I could think of a few more reasons, but the answer is yes
    you should strap the ceiling regardless of the joist spacing.
    

RE                       <<< Note 445.19 by SMURF::AMBER >>>

  So, should the strapping be spaced 16" apart on the ceiling?

  What should be used to attach the strapping to the ceiling?  Screws or nails?

  Thanks

   Steve

    RE: .-1
    
    Depending upon your preference, you can place the strapping at 12" or
    16" apart.  For the difference in cost, which was minimal, I placed the
    strapping every foot.  Double nail using 6D nails into each joist.
    
    Dan

    re meager inch:
    
    Divide the dimensions of your sheetrock sheets by 16 (inches), and by
    17.  Unless you've got some means of stretching the sheet, you could
    wind up with one end hanging out between two joists...
    
    Dick

    RE .20
    
    I agree with the 12"OC, however I prefer to fasten with 1 3/4" drywall
    screws. This way you can screw/unscrew as necessary if you plan
    to shim the strapping level.

Re  last few

   Thanks for the info.  I'll be using the strapping, or, furring strips as 
 some people call them.  I realize now the importance of the spacing wrt the 
 size of the sheetrock sheets!  Good info!

   The building inspector recommended the strapping, and my carpenter did as
 well, levelling being a major reason, and one more not mentioned is that
 screwing into those old ceiling joists would be tougher, since that old wood
 is harder than the wood used in today's construction.

   Steve


   PS  If anyone needs a recommenation for very good carpenter in the
       Northbridge, Mass area, send mail.  Does very nice work, and is honest,
       somewhat of a scarce commodity.

Another reason for furring strips... Have you ever tryed driving a nail into 
94year old kiln dryed lumber? I won $10 bucks off a friend by betting him 
that he coulden't drive a nail thru a 2x4 (35 years old) removed in a 
remodleing project. I bent  a dozen #16 concrete nails before deciding to 
use new wood.

-j

    One thing to consider, also, is the type of floor joists that you might
    have.  I am renovating my living room, and found that there were only
    2x6 floor joists holding the second floor on a full 26 or more foot
    run.  These were one piece joists.  What I am doing is sistering 2x6s
    onto the old floor joists.  This will stiffen the floor joists, as well
    as give me some new wood to screw the sheetrock to.
    
    We just got finished removing two walls, and putting in two massive
    beams to hold the complete house.  It is really going to look nice.  I
    don't have any plans on putting furring strips up, though.
    
    Ed..
    

    I'm removing the plaster of the walls of my family room so I can dry
    wall and paint. The plaster and lath on the walls came down easy, but
    the ceiling is another story. 1st the plaster, then what's making it
    almost impossible 2nd chicken wire, and 3rd of course lath.
     The chicken wire has made this an almost impossible task, I have
    tried pounding down on it from the attic, even jumping on it and I
    weigh 160lbs. and still makes very little progress. If you are
    wondering if I used a sludge hammer, yes even that wont bring this
    stuff down. The chicken wire is nailed to the rafters and lath so as 
    you can prob. imagine It's extreamly tuff to distroy.
    
    
    ANY SUGGESTIONS WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED.....
    
    
           I WONDER "MAYBE A STRONG EXPLOSIVE"......
    

    
    
       Borrow or buy or rent a sawzall. Since you have access from the
    attic, drill a hole in the plaster,c-wire, lath, stick the saw blade
    through, fire it up, and run it along the joists. Basically, just
    cut along the joists until the pieces drop out. You'll have to go back
    and clean up whats left on the joists from the family room. Make
    sure you use a blade that won't get hung up on the chicken wire.

Somebody put up a drywall ceiling in my living room (probably because of
water damage) but didn't bother removing the old lathe & plaster ceiling.
I know this because the LR ceiling is several inches lower than the
ceilings of adjacent rooms.  But it is still high enough -- it is still
a higher ceiling than one finds in most new houses.

So maybe you shouldn't bother taking down the plaster/chicken wire at all.
But if I had to do it, I'd use a sawzall, even if I had to buy one.  
It's a *great* tool for ripping out parts of houses.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    Re:  Sawzall:  I've tried doing this,  cutting out drywall with 1/2" of
    plaster on it.  It was slow going and  the blade dulls quickly.  While I
    agree that a Sawzall is worth owning, I found it  easier  to remove the
    plaster/drywall using a small axe.  For added effect, you can  yell out
    "Honey,  I'm  home"  when  you  first break through the ceiling from the
    attic.  ;^)
    
    gjd
    
    PS:
    Also be aware that you will create an enormous volume of debris in  the
    process, which may be a pain to dispose of.  You may save hassle if you
    just cover the existing ceiling.

    re -.1  Great line. I laughed so loud I'm sure they heard me 
            across the room. 

    re-1-1
    I've done that............my foot slipped off a rafter and broke
    thru the ceiling above my wife..........What a scream! from
    both of us.......hers in horror........mine in pain!
    
    
    Jim

    I guess I'd just start at one side with a prybar and work my way
    across the room, pulling nails/staples/whatever that hold the whole
    mess up.  Slow going, but you'll have to pull all the nails sometime
    anyway so why not do it as you go.
    It sounds like a dreadful job; removing one ceiling's worth of
    horsehair plaster and lath was bad enough for me.  You have my
    sympathy.

     Is it really chicken wire, or is it metal lath?  My kitchen had a 
second ceiling under the original one; they nailed the metal lath up and 
then put the second layer of plaster on.  Once I cut one line parallel to 
the rafters with the sawzall, the wrecking bar could be inserted between
the two layers to bring down the metal lath and the second layer.   Then 
rip out the first layer and wood lath with the wrecking bar.  It was fairly
fast and fun!  But note that it will take you longer to clean up than to do
the wrecking, wear heavy boots because you'll be stepping on nails, and
watch out for pipes and wiring when you cut out the one section with the
sawzall.  I trashed my doorbell wires and tried to cut through the tub
drain!

     Thanks for all the replies, it makes my job much easyer. By the way
    it turns out my roof is a hip roof and is self supporting. You see,
    my whole intention was to open the ceiling up and create a vaulted.
    I was going to talk to an engineer and have him/her tell me how much
    bigger the beams would have to be to support the roof if I were to take 
    out existing 2x4 ceiling joist. Obviously the 2x4 joist should have
    beena clue that they played no role in support of the roof there for
    could be taken out completly.
    
     So people, I have been wasting my time sweating over jumping on
    ceilings. By the way, it's chicken wire, Idont know what the gauge is
    but it very tuff.....
    
    
    
    Thanks for tha all the input and please dont be shy, any more input
    would be greaty appreciated....
    
    Matthew....
    

When I removed plaster on metal lath, it was the "ceiling" undernearth a
stairs.  I used the sawz-all with a metal cutting blade and cut through through
the whole mess, plaster, lath and joists and took it out in huge pieces.
But when I redo ceilings, I cover them over.

    
    I checked several notes but didn't see this problem before. 
    
    We got some kind of bugs on our bathroom ceiling. They are tens 
    of them. They are black and small. Not sure what to do to get 
    rid of them.
    
    My husband said it might be becuase it's too humid in the bathroom.
    
    Any suggestions ?
    
    Thanks in advance.

    	no answers, but a kinda similar problem-  last year: flat oval
    shaped little bugs, kinda like mini centipeads. I used a Sulfur
    fumagator (NEVER AGAIN!) and got rid of them. This year: kinda
    spherical black micro-beetle bugs. Suspected entry point: medicine
    cabinet wall cut-out.  This year's plan of attack: a non sulfur
    fumigator on a warm day.  - Chris

    I just baught a house in Old Col. City. I also had bugs, sounds like
    the same kind. When I went up to the attick I found small openings in
    my fascia boards. I found leaves (very dry) thet are able to sneak
    through these openings and the bugs that live in them. Check it out and
    see if you don't have the same prob.
    
    
    
    Matthew......
    

    I have a sand texture paint on my bathroom ceiling. A few months ago
    I put a coat of ceiling paint over it (not textured). Then a few weeks
    after I painted I noticed a small bubble near the shower. Since then
    its grown and started pealing. Just in one area but it keeps getting 
    bigger. Does anyone know if this can be patched? or do I scrape the
    whole ceiling and start over? or any suggestions?
    
    Thanks in advance for any help.
    K.C.                                       
    

    re: .21
    Now you know why I hate textured ceilings.  I think you're in
    for it.  I think you'll have to scrape the whole works - including
    the textured paint - and start over.  You *might* get by with
    a primer coat of something like Kilz (sp?) shellac-based pigmented
    primer on that spot, followed by more paint, but that would fix
    only that one spot.  You say it's "spreading".  I think the only
    way to really fix it is to go back to zero and start over.

    now you also (probably) know why textured ceilings are frequently used!
    
    (that is to say, the prior occupant covered the defect with a textured
    paint)
    Happened to us many years ago.
    
    agree with the last comment
    
    in re bathrooms in general, some while ago (coupla years) i wrote a
    note on painting a bathroom *(plastered) ceiling with epoxy paint.
    I still recommend it!

    Thanks for your comments. I guess I'll be scraping this weekend, and if
    it does'nt come out as good as I hope I'll probably be putting some
    textured paint back up.

    
    I am currently having the unfinished basement of a split entry 
    built. The framing, insulation, plumbing and electrical is almost completed.
    
    The downstairs consists of an area 28x24 which connects to the garage.
    It will have a family room, bathroom, hallway, utility room and another
    room for an office or something.
    
    By this week, I will have to make a decision on what type
    of basement ceiling to go with.
    
    
    Wallboard ceiling
    	All that needs to be done is put some furring strips up and
        then it can be sheetrocked and plastered. I really would like
    	this type of ceiling since it looks nicer. 
    
    Hung ceiling
        I planned on going with this originally until i found that
    	a wallboard ceiling was feasible.
    
    The electrician has warned me that it is preferrable to go with
    a hung ceiling because the electrical and plumbing can easily
    be got at. He said, he had seen what can go wrong and i would
    be sorry in 5 or 6 years when a connection fell out.
    
    A carpenter recommended I go with a wallboard ceiling.
    
    The plasterer recommended a hung ceiling. In the last 3 years,
    he only saw one basement with a wallboard ceiling.
    
    Most of the plumbing is located in the utility room in
    which i planned on just having either no celing or a hung
    ceiling.
    
    In all the houses I ever lived in, I never had a problem with
    any electrical outlets or lights or heat etc... never.
    
    If something does go wrong, does breaking into the ceiling really
    become a messy and expensive thing.
    
    Can anybody lend there experiences and opinions.
    
    Should I go with a wallboard or hung ceiling?
    
    Darryl
    

    Speaking from experence, go with a hung ceiling.  My sister's house has
    a finished ceiling in the basement and when they added a whirlpool tub
    on the second floor, I had no choice but to run a pipe on the outside
    of the house to get to the electrical panel.  They also want some more
    switches added to these lights, I can't do that without a lot of luck
    or making some holes in the ceiling.  Plumbing is the same thing, you
    limit your future modifications (or at least add to their cost) if you go
    with a  finished ceiling.
    
    Brian

    
    I second the hung ceiling. My whole house has 'em (I didn't install it,
    bought the house this way). I spend a lotta time up inside the ceiling
    running wires, and I'd be having big problems if I has a regular ceiling
    (I'm installing a key phone system, alarm system, and various other
    stuff, it's a BIG house!). I enjoy the easy access. :^)
    
    Fred

    I'd go for the hung ceiling as well .... BUT, if you insist on the
    plasterboard, make SURE that you draw yourself a REAL good diagram of
    what's up there, and where it is, before you cover it up.  That way
    when (note: not IF, but WHEN) you do need to break through the ceiling,
    you'll at least do it in the right place.

    Another vote for "hung" ceilings. We had this is our old house and
    found it very useful when we had to break up an overloaded circuit so
    the breaker wouldn't trip if the fridge came one when the dishwasher
    was running. And running speaker wires from the stereo under the floor
    to speakers at the other end of the living room, and in the basement.
    Remember, there is no such thing as a "finished" house, you will always
    find yourself making changes!
    Sandy
    

If you have the space, go for the hung ceiling.  I'm faced with the prospect
of tearing down the finished ceiling in my basement to run new wiring and
plumbing.

As an in-between notion, Armstrong has a "snap-in" tile system, where you
attach a grid to the joists and snap in the tiles.  This is not meant to
be readily removed, but I think you could pull it apart with a lot more
ease than a wallboard ceiling.

			Steve

    I go the other way.  You will probably gain a few inches of head room
    by having a plaster ceiling and this can make a basement alot more
    comfortable.  As far as access to plumbing and rewiring, maybe well
    planned access panels or limited use of drop ceilings in some areas
    would do the trick.  
    
    I just hate walking into a basement where the ceiling is lower than I
    am used to in other parts of the house.
    Good luck, Ken

    	I'd also go with the hung.  I don't think it's a matter so much of
    things failing but more of the ease of doing future additions and such.
    
    And, the way things go, I'll guarantee that no matter how well you
    plan, the place you put the access panel in a wallboard ceiling will be
    exactly the farthest distance it can be from where you will actually
    need it when the time comes to do the work :-)

    When we finished off the cellar we installed the Armstrong ceilings in
    evry room but the laundry and workshop, excluding these two due to
    moisture, dust and low pipes. In the other rooms we don't find the
    height a problem, the ceilings being a shade under7'( course I'm only
    5' so what do I know??) The family room one is great as he put speakers
    up inside two of the tiles, great when you watch the "movies"! The only
    drawback is that if the humidity gets high the ceiling will start to
    smell "damp".   Other than that, I'd do it again. It's a lot easier to
    take down a tile to do plumbing or run new wires than rip out a nice
    ceiling or snake wires.
    
    Lynn

    We, too, are finishing our basement (creating a family room and
    installing a new 3/4 bath), and are debating the pros and cons
    of a suspended ceiling. I've got a couple of issues that I need to
    decide:
    
    	- In the proposed family room, our FHA heating ducts run down the
    	middle of the room, lowering the headroom there to approx 9" below
    	the bottoms of the joists. I was considering boxing them with
    	blueboard, and installing a 2x2 suspended ceiling closer to the
    	joists. (I hoped that the boxed ductwork would provide a visual
    	break in the room, which is large at approx 24x20 feet.) The contractor
    	is suggesting installing the blueboard ceiling, framed down from
    	the joists by 9", evenly across the entire room. Any comments or
    	opinions? Will my way work? (Or, as a 3rd alternative, is it possible 
    	for me to hang the suspended ceiling 9" below the joist bottoms?)
    
    	- If I go with the hung ceiling in the family room, what should I 
    	do in the bathroom: blueboard or suspended? The bathroom will be
    	ceiling-vented, but I'd still be concerned about moisture ruining
    	a hung ceiling. Again, any thoughts?
    
    Thanks...
    
    Freddie

    It depends on the ceiling height.  Would you miss those 9 inches?  I
    would.  I would recommend boxing in the duct work.  Then choose whether
    to hang sheetrock or suspended ceiling over the rest of the room.
    
    With a suspended, you could lower the entire ceiling at a later date if
    you wanted by lowering the grid.  The cost would only be the wire
    holding up the grid.  YOu could reuse the grid and ceiling panels.  
    
    If you put up bluerock, then you would have to have two ceilings or
    tear out the sheetrock, frame, apply new sheetrock and finish.  You
    also would not have the access for utilities maintanence/upgrade.
    
    If ceilings are the same height as the rest of the house, it does not
    feel like you are in the basement as much.
    

    If there are any plumbing fixtures (traps or clean outs) or any
    electrical junction boxes I believe it is illegal by code to cover
    so as to make unaccessible. It makes it much easier to add wiring
    or plumbing in the future.
    
    As for covering the duct work it would break up the room and you
    can make it look like a beam to add looks as well as hide the metal.

>    If there are any plumbing fixtures (traps or clean outs) or any
>    electrical junction boxes I believe it is illegal by code to cover
>    so as to make unaccessible.

  Is this recent code, or something that applies only to basements? All
  of the bath plumbing in our house, as well as numerous electrical
  boxes, are all walled in. Stupid design, if you ask me, but evidently
  met code when the house was built in 1965.

    
    I decided to go with a hung ceiling.
    
    Junction boxes can not be in an unaccessible location. You must
    move it if you want to cover that area.
    
    A house built in 1965 would not meet the standard building codes
    of today.
    
    I plan on going with mineral board ceiling. That is what an experienced
    installer of commercial buildings told me. 
    
    Another carpenter told me that the closest to the ceiling he would
    recommend I place the hung ceiling is 6 inches. He suggested I might
    be able to eek out another inch or two. Since I want to avoid a low
    ceiling - I am about  5'2" - and avoid the claustrophobic feeling
    a low ceiling may give. The joists are 7'10" high.
    
    What would be the minimum distance I would need ?
    
    Darryl
    

    I would choose something besides mineral board; that stuff is
    a real pain because it crumbles so easily.  The slightly more
    expensive stuff with a fiberglass backing doesn't have that
    problem.
    
    I think we wound up at 6 inches below the joists; we had to
    move a few pipes which were in the way of where I wanted to
    hang lights.

I installed a hung ceiling using the fiberglass panels and got away
with a 2" clearance. That's 2 INCHES from the finished face of the
panel to the bottom of the joist. 

The 2" clearance makes is a little more difficult to install the grid
work and the panels, BUT it CAN BE DONE and the added head room is
well worth it. Even a couple inches height can make a big difference
in how a room "feels". 

Charly

	
	Not really knowing what I'm talking about but certainly willing
	to look silly,  here's an idea.....
	
	How about making a ceiling out of 1/2 to 3/4" thick by 6" wide
	boards?  You could screw them into the joists and then either
	stain then or paint them.  Since they would be screwed in,  you
	should be able to easily remove a bunch and get to the pipes and
	wires.  Has anyone every tried this?  I imagine the wood would
	be more expensive but it might also look nice.  You might even
	be able to add recessed lighting in between the joists.
	
	Feasible?  I'm hopefully going to have a basement to finished
	someday.  They just poured the footings for the foundation today.
	
	Garry

    I think you have plenty of height down there to work with.  I'm 5'3", I
    don't feel at ALL claustrophobic and all of our ceilings are about 7'2"
    high.  That's just the height the builder made them.  It never occurred
    to me that the ceilings were 'short'.  My husband's 6'3" and it doesn't
    bother him at all (and it's pretty easy for him to change the ceiling
    lights too! (-; ).
    
    Anyway, it seems that 7' 2" is some 'new' kind of standard height,
    because it's what all the houses <all new> on my street have.  That
    would give you 8" for the ceiling space.  A better part of the trick is
    making sure that you keep the walls painted a light color and the
    ceiling a shade or 3 lighter.  One of the ceilings in 1 of the rooms we
    finished upstairs has a darker shade ceiling texture/color (almond),
    and the ceiling APPEARS shorter, though it's really the same height.
    That optical-Dillusion stuff!
    
    Patty

    7'2" is what you get with 7' studs.  If your rooms are smallish anyway,
    then the short ceiling height isn't as noticeable.  If you're talking
    rooms that are larger, you'll need taller (8' stud) walls, or you'll
    end up with the cave look.  Also, if you want ceiling fans, or
    elaborate overhead fixtures, 7'2" doesn't work well.  I'm about 5'9",
    but prefer the openess that 8'+ ceilings have
    
    Carl

    
    
    	That's the reason I went with a wall board ceiling in my
    	basement. I wanted ceiling fans. I'm 6'2" and with a ceiling 
    	hugger and lightkit I make it under the fan with only a few 
    	inches to spare.
    
    
    						Mike
    						----

A 7'2" ceiling height is TERRIBLE!  Doesn't anybody ever raise their hands
over their heads?  I'm 6'3", and in my last house, I was all the time banging
my knuckles on the approx 7'6" ceilings.  It didn't help that the builder 
had mixed sand into the plaster for a textured look -- I left blood on
the ceilings in a couple of places.  

When I built my garage/workshop, I made sure it had 8'2" ceiling heights.
Partly that was so that I could jocky around 4x8 plywood and wallboard
sheets with less trouble, but it was also to give myself a ceiling that I
never touch by accident.

In conclusion, make the ceiling as high as you conveniently can (within
limits, of course).  You won't mind having it half a foot higher, but if 
you spend a lot of time down there, you (or the next owner) could mind a 
*lot* having it half a foot lower.  Don't emulate the tricks of builders 
who want to save money and don't have to live in what they build!

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    re:  .20
    
    That's great - when you can build!
    
    My 'olde' house is 6'11" from concrete floor to bottom of floor joists
    - plan shows 7' for basement.  The main beam takes off another 9 1/2"
    (it measures 6 x 9 1/2) and there is some FHA ductwork and waste pipes.
    
    What is the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM clearance needed for a suspended ceiling? 
    
    I am worried about sheetrocking it - for access purposes, but cannot
    afford to lose much height.  May have to go with sheetrock in the 'main
    playroom' no pipes above there, but go suspended in the darkroom and
    office with resultant lower ceilings.
    
    	-Barry-
    

    >>What is the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM clearance needed for a suspended ceiling? 
    
    I think to be safe, and to make it easy on yourself, two (2) inches. 
    You may have to play with the grids to put up the last few panels but
    quite a few years ago my father and I put up a 2/2 suspended ceiling
    only lowering it by 2".  The grid itself takes up about 1" and then 1"
    more for tilting in the panels.  You may need more if you are putting
    up 2/4 panels.
    
    bjm

>my knuckles on the approx 7'6" ceilings.  It didn't help that the builder 
>had mixed sand into the plaster for a textured look -- I left blood on
>the ceilings in a couple of places.  
    
    you'd better avoid houses with ceiling fans.  :^)  - Vick

RE: .20

	Larry,
	You better not come over to my house. ALL the ceilings in
my house are 7'2". I also have some ceiling fans too.

	Although I didn't build the house myself, I like that height. It allows
me to paint the ceiling without being on a ladder.

	Bill (I'm 5'9" btw)

    7'2" seems quite low.  The ceilings in our new house are about
    7'7" (approximately); built with a 2x4 sole plate, a doubled
    2x4 top plate, and an 88" 2x4 stud (total 92-�", but knock off
    1-�" for ceiling strapping and drywall).
    
    The 88" 2x4s came from the lumber yard in that length; I doubt
    they were cut specially for this builder.  I've also heard of
    92-5/8" 2x4s for 8' ceilings.

Thanks for everyone's concern for my welfare!  Actually, I can deal with
being a guest in a house with a low ceiling, just not living in one.
Provided I don't have to go near any ceiling fans -- a fan hanging down 
from a 7'2" ceiling would make my hair stand on end... literally.

However, my main point was not whether 7'2" is or isn't acceptable under
some circumstances.  It was that a 7'8" ceiling is almost always as good
or better than a 7'2" ceiling.  Painting the ceiling is one of the few
exceptions, and I don't suppose many people do that often enough to matter.
But mostly, I was reacting to the idea that if builders do it, it must be
the right way.  No siree!  If you have a choice, I think the ceiling 
height should be a lot more than 7'2". 

	Enjoy,
	Larry

 We live in a 94 year old house with 8'7" ceilings.  We recently toured some
"new construction" in our town, with ceilings about 7'2" and we felt
clostrophobic.(sp)

Steve

ps:  I'd go with the suspended ceiling.  You'll always want to add a phone
     jack here, a cable TV jack there, add outlets, stereo speaker wires, 
     have a plumbing problem, want to remodel a room on the 1st floor,
     and others too numerous to mention.

    7'2" is unacceptably low to me.  My current house has 7'6" ceilings,
    and I still find them low.
    
    		Steve (who at 6'4", is the shrimp in his family)

    I have seen this set up in a renovated office building that was once a
    school, in Norwood, Ma. (now a Doctors office building)
    
    On the top floor, looking up at the rafters, they had installed some
    material between the rafters. Looked like they had cut 4x8 sheets
    down to 16" x 72" (or close) and put them between the rafters. I
    assume that the material had some insulating value but that was a guess
    on my part. They had run cove molding the length of the rafters and the
    fiberglass sheets sat on the molding. The rafters were stained and
    poly'd as was the cove molding. 
    
    I thought that this would be a good idea for a basement ceiling. You
    would loose no height at all. You could run wires etc, between the
    ceiling material and the subfloor above, lights could be recessed
    possibly. 
    
    One drawback, I saw was that stained rafter ends would be dark. So,
    they could be painted white.
    
    		------------------------------------------------
                    |  |               |  |               |  |
    		    |  |               |  |               |  |
    		    |  |               |  |               |  |
               =====|  |===============|  |===============|  |=========
    		   \|__|/             \|__|/             \|__|/
    
    	\ = COVE MOLDING...could be put in at any desired height between
    			   joists
    	= = Ceiling material...sheet rock, fiberglass material, whatever
    
    
    What do you think?
      

    It sounds like a feasible idea.  As long as the joists/rafters are on
    even spacing with no special placement to make the pattern disturbed I
    think it could have possibilites.  
    
    As a twist on the idea...  Instead of using molding, use the wall L
    shaped grid support for a suspended ceiling.  It is already painted
    white and it designed to hold up ceiling panels.  You could use ceiling
    panels cut to the width of the joists.  Since panels now come in a
    variety of patterns and insulating abitiltes, you could in theory use
    the insulated variety as a sound proofing agent.

re .29,.30:

I know someone who's done what you suggest -- ceiling tiles flush with the
bottom of the joists.  It doesn't look too bad.

    I think it is a clever idea too.
    As a matter of fact, it looks like it turns a potential liability into
    a asset. The exposed rafters and beam(s) become decorative.
    
    
    					

I have two rooms in my house done similar to those discribed in .29, with the
exception that the supports are done with 1/4 round attached to the rafters
about 1 inch up, and the actual tile material is 1/2" sheet rock cut into strips
about 3/4' narrower than the spaceing between the rafters to alow them to be 
inserted on an angle.

I find this set up simple to install and maintain, when it is time to paint
the tiles, you simply lift one side and insert either blocks or paper, and 
paint, eliminateing the need to cut in all of the edges. As for finishing the
exposed portion of the rafters, the choice of finish is up nto the installer,
I chose to stain and urithane mine.

1/2" sheet rock comes in 8' and 12' lengths about every where, and in 14' and 
16' lengths by special order at outlets that cater to builders.

    re.-1
    What room did you use this method in? I thought it looked great in the
    cathedral ceiling where I saw it, but I wondered how it would look in
    an application where the ceiling was normal height. Also, in a basement
    there are few windows and I thought that all that wood on the ceiling
    running across the room might contribute to that trapped in feeling
    some basements have.
    
    Also, since sheet rock is a heavy material, compared to the ceiling
    panels made of fibreglass, have you ever had one fall due to someone,
    or a child messing around with the ceiling?
    
    Since you raise the panels to paint, I assume you did not seam the butt
    ends of the sheetrock. How did you finish off the butt ends? The
    ceiling I saw did nothing with the butt ends, however, they used
    fibreglass panels, not sheetrock, and the panels were installed tight
    up against the roof rafters, so there was no play in the ceiling
    panels.
    
    Steve 

    Or you could simply fasten 1 x 3 rough cut strapping along the bottom
    of the joists, like an inverted "T".  They'd provide about 1/2 or 3/4 
    inch lip for the (wallboard, ceiling tile, whatever) to set on.  Need 
    a recessed flourescent?  Need to butt two panels?  Run a piece of 1 x 
    3 across a pair of joists.  Want that massive look?  Use 2 x 3 or 2 x
    4 instead.  Want rustic?  Slather joint compound on the sheetrock, and 
    roll it with a rough paint roller, or stipple it with a sponge.  
    
    Carl  

re .34

What room- I have a duplex, and on my side two small bed rooms, and on the other
side the main room (kitchen, liveingroom) which is 14 x 36 is finished this way.

Yes sheet rock is heavey, but since it has been up (since 1975) there has not
been a problem with a pannel falling.

Butt ends- I have no but ends, sheet rock is available in lengths to 16ft so I
found no need to butt sheets together.

The house is located in Salem NH, if you want to take a look for your self, send
me mail, and we can arange something.

    
    I have some simple questions on how putting up a hung ceiling.
    
    Must the main runners go perpendicular to the joists or is it optional.
    I originally thought the cross cuts came in 4 feet only but now I
    realize they come in 2 feet also. I have the wall trimming up and 
    am now going to put up the main runners. 
    
    Do I tie the main runner ends to the wall so it is tight and there is
    no shifting.
    
    The instruction sheets are not explicit about this.
    I just want to be sure before I proceed.
    
    The ceiling will be around 7'4" when finished which is about 6
    inches from the joists. 
    
    
    darryl
    
    p.s. before i mistakenly said i was 5'2" but i really am 6'2". That
    	 is why i am concerned about ceiling height. If I was a foot
    	 shorter, my house would seem very spacious.
    

RE: << Note 3940.37 by MARX::ANDERSON >>>
    
>    Must the main runners go perpendicular to the joists or is it optional.

      No,  but  it  is  a  *LOT* easier to tie them up if they cross the
      joists rather than running parallel -- and most likely between two
      joists.
      
      Note that this does NOT control which way the 4' and 2' dimensions
      go.  Diagram follows:
      
      ---------------------------------------------------------
      |      |      |      |      |      |      |      |      |
      |      |      |      |      |      |      |      |      |
      |      |      |      |      |      |      |      |      |
      |      |      |      |      |      |      |      |      |
      |      |      |      |      |      |      |      |      |
      |      |      |      |      |      |      |      |      |
      |      |      |      |      |      |      |      |      |
      ---------------------------------------------------------
      |             |             |             |             |
      |             |             |             |             |
      |             |             |             |             |
      |-------------|-------------|-------------|-------------|
      |             |             |             |             |
      |             |             |             |             |
      |             |             |             |             |
      ---------------------------------------------------------
      
>    Do I tie the main runner ends to the wall so it is tight and there is
>    no shifting.

      No.   Just cut the main runners to rest in the wall channel.  When
      all of the cross T's and tiles are in  place  it  will  stay  just
      fine.  
      

    I'm in the process of planning out a small study in the basement of my
    home.  I need to install a ceiling which meets the following requirements:
    
    * Must not take up any head room.  2 or 3 inches is too much to sacrifice.
    * Must be inexpensive.  This is just a study, I'm not looking for anything
      fancy.
    * Must install quickly.

    Any suggestions?  I may end  up going with drywall if nothing else will
    do.

    I saw a relatives house in Canada, which actually had a sort of panelling
    for the ceiling!  It didn't look like wall panelling, but was the same
    weight and thickness.  It was white and had a smooth texture.  There was
    some type of molding that ran along the seems.  Believe it or not, it
    didn't look bad at all!

    Has anyone seen anything like this sold in New England?

    Thanks,
    Denis

    

Re: .39

Armstrong sells a "snap-in" grid tile system where the grids nail directly
to the joists - shouldn't take more room than drywall and it's a lot easier
to install.

			Steve

      This  reminds  me  of  what  they say about software:  Good, Fast,
      Cheap; choose any two...
      
      You don't say what the existing ceiling is. Open joists? If so, be
      carefull what you put up so that you  maintain  access  to  pipes,
      wires, ducts, etc. for future maintenance.
      
      My  first  thought would be to use 1/2" drywall, but the finishing
      work might conflict with your "must install quickly" requirement.
      
      You  can  use  ordinary  pannelling  on  a  celing; check with the
      supplier or your building inspector  or  comments  in  theis  file
      about  how  to fasten it.  The nails that you use for panneling on
      walls probably won't be enough.  You could glue to the joists, but
      then  you  cant  open it up to get to utilities.  The other choice
      would be screews, which may be an objectionable appearance.
      
      I think that there are some panneling paters available which would
      look O.K. on a ceiling.  In fact, there's nothing wrong with  wood
      grain panneling on the ceiling.  You probably want to stick with a
      fairly light color for appearance.
      
      You could also use 1/8" luan plywwod, which you could pre-paint in
      the color of you choice. You'll have to touch-up nails/screws, but
      that should be quick and easy.
      
      If  you  do decide to use pannelling or plywood, you might want to
      facte the joints with battens -- 3/4 by 2 or 3" strips of wood.  

    re-.3
    I know the material you are referring to. I put it in the bath ceiling 
    down the cape. I belive it is called Homasote. It is made out of pressed
    paper. Takes paint excellent, and cuts with a utility knife, easily ;^)
    handled by one person. You run lattice molding over the seams. 
    
    It runs around $12 for 4x8x 1/2 vs sheet rock  $4-5 4x8x 1/2
    So, it is not cheap, but no sanding etc.
    
    
    Homasote is also being used as carpet underlayment. I guess it would be
    ok as long as it does not get wet. 
    
    Steve
    
     
    
    

We have some water damage to a porch ceiling and the builder agrees there was 
sloppy work on the roof that caused it.  One 4x8 sheet of plywood is effected.
He's going to re-flash and fix the roof and told my wife he'll re-paint the
ceiling...  The house was built last January so has had 1 year of dripping water
on it.  My feeling is to get them to replace the plywood, not just cover
up the stain with paint.

If the leak is going to be fixed, and the plywood doesn't get wet anymore, does
it really need to be replaced?  The top of the ceiling is exposed to the attic
and when I went up there a month ago I didn't see any water stains on top of
that peice of wood, they just appear on the bottom.

Dave

>If the leak is going to be fixed, and the plywood doesn't get wet anymore, does
>it really need to be replaced? 

      If the stains left by the water are superficial, then it should be
      O.K. to just re-paint it.  But take a close look at  the  plywood.
      Ignoring  the stains, is the wood still smooth?  Or does it appear
      to have places that have swollen?  Check particularly  around  the
      edges  of  the sheet.  Any sort of swelling would suggest that the
      plys of the plywood have [begun to] become  de-laminated.   For  a
      ceiling,  this  is probably not a structural problem, but it is an
      appearance problem, and it may well get worse over time.

    Would Homasote represent a fire hazard? If it is what I'm remembering,
    it looks highly flammable.
    
    - Hoyt

    I'm currently (groan) involved with a cathedral cieling that is a
    "popcorn" textured ceiling. I'm having trouble with rolling the paint
    on - it is picking up the little "popcorns" and making a terrible mess.
    I tried last night to put on a 1st coat very lightly and will see if I
    can roll on that 1st coat better tonight. Meanwhile any suggestion on
    what approach might lessen the pain?
    JR

    I'm sort of glad it is your place and not mine! - I have a textured
    ceiling, but not THAT textured.  You are supposed to be able to get
    rollers with VERY long cover material, sort of like a shag rug, which
    is supposed to make the job easier, although you will still end doing
    the edges and corners by hand.  (If it were a wall, you could try
    spraying it instead.)             

    I didn't see any notes discussing this so a new note seemed in order. 
    If I missed something the Moderators can send the obligatory Knuckle
    Rap note and I'll move it.  ;-)
    
    	I need to install a ceiling paddle fan.  Well, I don't actually NEED to
    but I'd like to.  Running electric to the location is no problem, the
    problem is the support for the fan.  This is a finished ceiling on the
    first floor of a cape so I don't have access to the top of the ceiling
    from an attic to install the box.  Running the usual support between two 
    adjacent joists to take the weight of the fan will be difficult unless
    I cut a fairly large hole in the ceiling.  I really don't want to do
    this because then I have to patch and mud and paint and it's not going
    to match the rest of the ceiling so I have to paint the whole living
    room ceiling which means painting the dining room because there is no
    wall between the two and... well you get the idea.  
    
    	Anyone have any ideas?  Can a box screwed to the side of a joist take 
    the fan weight and vibration?  Have any old work type boxes been developed 
    to make fan installation easier in a finished ceiling?  Am i just going
    to have to cut the big hole?
    
    Thanks,
    
    George

    There are boxes available with an expandable screw "shaft" which
    wedges between adjacent joists; once the "shaft" is expanded it
    is locked in place with a locking nut.  These can be installed
    through the hole required for the junction box; it might be a
    bit of a tight fit, but they are designed for old work.
    
    Any store selling fans should have these, otherwise check out an
    electrical supplier.

    I used one of these expanding braces to install a fan the kitchen of my
    last house.  I replaced an existing light fixtures, so the electrical
    box was already in place but I needed the added strength of the
    support.  It was very easy to do.  The brace easily fit through the
    small hole required for the junction box.

There are a couple of notes listed under VENTILATION (1279, 1847, 2745), but a 
note specifically discussing the problem of supporting it seems like a good 
idea.  I changed the title to reflect that.

I wish I had some ideas to offer.

Paul

    
    If all else fails, I'd cut the hole and then cover over it with some
    finish woodwork -- perhaps an octagonal piece, with some nice molding
    detail.
    

I put one of the expanding braces in a ceiling last week to support a heavy
chandelier.  It worked wonderfully - I was impressed with the design and
sturdiness.  I got mine in the ceiling fan department of Builders Square.

				Steve

    I'm remodeling my bedroom ceiling which has a textured ceiling.  My wife 
    and I both dislike textured ceilings so I tried to scrape the texturing 
    off.  This worked fine in the kitchen, was fast and left nice smooth 
    sheetrock to paint but in the bedroom, after an hour and a half of 
    scrapping I have a 3 foot square area that is pretty much clean and 
    has some digs in the sheetrock.  So, I'm giving up and will re-texture
    the ceiling.  I have feathered the edges of where I scrapped and have
    sanded off the really rough texture on the rest of the ceiling so that
    the new stuff comes out as even as possible.  I plan on spraying on the
    texture paint because I don't think painting it with a roller will
    merge the scrapped/unscrapped areas correctly.  If never used texture
    paint before so anyone have any pointers on how to spray texture a 
    ceiling?  
    
    Thanks,
    
    George

Before you give up you might want to try some stuff called
Texture-Off. I think it's made by Zinser (the folks who make
BIN). It comes in a gallon can and is citrus-based. You roll it
on, let it sit for an hour or so, and then scrape off the texture.
Worked real well for me.


Mark

I know that as late as the 70s they were putting asbestos in a lot of that 
stuff.  So what's Homer Owner supposed to do?  Best bet is to just cover the
stuff up.  With the laws around disclosure and liability when selling real
estate, I've heard you're better off if you can honestly say you don't know
so many folks opt not to test and instead cover it up.

    
    re .14: Where is this Texture-Off available?
    

I have old horse-hair plaster ceilings and walls.  The previos owners used
the flat ceiling paint that would last about a year before it would start
massively chipping away.  I did the first ceiling with the texture paint that
is premixed (about $50 for a 12X12 room) and it still looks like new.  I rolled
it on with that room (non-sand mixture), but started using the sand type for
the other rooms and the roller didn't work.  
	Now I use a 9" pad and it's great.  It takes technique mind you, but
you can do it quite easily.  Use a paint tray and only do one stroke per pad
full.  The trick is to get it just right with one stroke and (in my case) put
it on about 3/8" thick.
	I think I'll get another 10-15 years out of ceilings that were literally
falling down.  And speaking of falling down,  I used the sheet metal corner bead
(pounded flat) and dry wall screws to put the falling down stuff back in place.
I just screwed into a joist and joint compounded over it.  Can't tell it's 
there.

Good luck what ever you decide,


					Phil

I found it at Hugh M. Woods in Colorado Springs, and also at Home Club.  I
would expect any reasonable home center type place to have it (including
Spags, of course!).  Hugh M.  Woods is the same chain as Sommerville Lumber,
so you might want to look there.

Re: .16

Builders Square carries Texture-Off, I think Somerville does too.  It goes for
about $20/gallon.  See also note 9.

			Steve

                We just tore down a lowered ceiling in the cellar of our
    20 yr old split. Just moved in. I would have preferred to buy an
    unfinished celler hole....
    just wanted to let you know I have a bad attitude problem! We bought
    the location. But back to the ceiling.
                We are in the process of gutting the downstairs, redoing all
    the wiring (before it burns to the ground. I am going to find out who
    the building inspector was when the house was built so if I ever run
    into him in any house dealings I can ignore anything he says). When this
    is done (the orange shag is gone - the cats had the same opinion of it
    that I did) , the floors are shored up so they don't bounce and crack
    tile and we can put in hardwood on the main floor, we will be redoing
    the celler.
                After having tons of mouse turds and seeds fall on my head
    while pulling out the old lowered ceiling, I am wondering if there is
    any reason we can't just stain the joists and subfloor white? I feel
    much more secure knowing I can get at the wiring and plumbing. The
    plumbing is pretty neat and unobtrusive, and since it looks like we
    will be redoing most all of the wiring we can dress it up neat. 
                This will be used as "living" space (this is my bad
    attitude showing) but I want to get the most head space out of it and
    lighten it up as much as possible. We may eventually do a more
    traditionally finished ceiling for resale value of the house, but for
    our needs we want to gain the illusion of height.
                Anybody else done this? Any hints on dressing the wiring?
    How's it look?  How do the different ceiling choices affect heat(we
    have two zone FHW - one up, one down) and noise(family room is right
    under bedrooms, great floor plan!). Maybe if I'm lucky it will burn
    down......
                  Mary
    

    
    How about white washing.  Covers everything in the barn..........
    
    Back to reality!  Sounds like maybe you'd be better putting up
    a drop ceiling.  Hanging it close to the floor joists.  That way
    if you need to get up into it, just pop a tile out and pop it
    back in after your done.  And it looks better than trying to
    cover up wiring and exposed frame work.  It will also keep the heat
    in somewhat better seeing you have bedrooms above.
    
    JD

I can apprecaite the point of view of someone who can't bear to lose even
1" of ceiling height (and surely a dropped ceiling would need at least
that much).  I took down a basement ceiling that was just above my head
(for other reasons) and found that the area was much less unpleasant.
I think it has to do with the feeling of looming menace one gets when a
large object (like a flat plane) just above my head.  Removing the ceiling
added only 1/2" below the joists, but in between the joists it adds 10",
which helped a lot.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

                We like it much better with the 10" between the joists
    exposed. It's definetly the "looming menace" aspect that bothers us.        
                I had another idea last night if we deceide to go back to a
    hung ceiling - pressed tin. I just sent away for some info and
    suggestions on how this might work. It comes in all different patterns
    and finishes and can be painted. If you needed to space it away from
    the joists some sort of screw in spacer should be easy enuf to find.
    If the sheets are available in say 2'x 3' dimensions I wouldn't think
    they'd be to heavy. They might even overlap 1/4" or so and not need a
    "seam cover". My first thought as to the best way to secure them might
    be to just screw them up. Anybody ever worked with tin ceiling. I'm off
    to check the keyword dir.
                               Mary

    One idea that I have seen used quite effectively is to place 1x3s onto
    the joists and laying suspended ceiling tiles onto those.  See an
    attempt to diagram this below.  Using 1x4s or 1x6s, you can get the
    effect of a wooden beam and have the tiles placed closer to the floor. 
    Just leave enough room above the tiles for pipes, wires, etc.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    	|  |		 |  |		 |  |
    	|  |		 |  |		 |  |
    	|  |=============|  |============|  |
    	|  ||		||  ||		||  |
    		^	   \
    		|	    \
    		|	     Joist
    	    Ceiling tile
    
    
    
    
    Dan

   
    	|  |		 |  |		 |  |
    	|  |		 |  |		 |  |
    	|  |=============|  |============|  |
    	|__||	^	||__||		||__|
    		|	   \             \
    		|	    \            1x3 strip
    		|	     Joist
    	    Ceiling tile
    
    
    

A similar idea is discussed in .29 - .31.

    
    
           I am planning on putting a 24'x16' addition on to my house
      this comming spring, I would like to make the ceiling into a
      cathedral style with large beams to tie-in to my adjoining
      walls.  I consider myself to be good with most house construction
      techniques, but I am concerned with the structual integrity of
      my roof. My calculated pitch is 5" to every foot. I am having
      carpenters quote me on doing just the shell and or roof, but
      if I felt comfortable with a design, and one that I have the
      ability to do with limited help, I would then do it myself. This
      gives me two advantages 1)I have the satisfaction of doing it,
      2) I could save valuable money. But if I dont feel at all
    comfortable, I will have an expert do it.
    
           So my  question to you is , 1) Have you done this before,
    if so how did you do it. 2) If you have one, how was it done.
    
        I have read a number of manuals on this subject, but beleive
      that there is a better technique.
    
         Thanks,
    
           Scott

    
    I put a cathedral ceiling on my 16X18 addition two years ago. I bought 
    pre made sissor roof trusses, spaced them 16" apart, spec said 24"
    spacing.  Even put in two skylights. Real easy job. I paid $28 for each 
    roof truss X 16 trusses = $448.

I put on a 24 x 16 addition to my house last fall (actually, I'm not done yet -
see my 5 year plan for details).  We also wanted a cathedral ceiling, but needed
some type of collar ties because of our 5/12 pitch - just like yours.  One
carpenter wanted to put up a tray ceiling, which involves putting the collar
ties up high, then putting the ceiling up against it.  The design we ended up
with (suggested and implemented by a carpenter/builder with post and beam
experience), used exposed collar ties of 4x10 fir beams placed on every other
rafter (32" o.c.), with the ceiling installed around them.

if you're interested at taking a look, you can come over. Just send me mail and
let me know (I live in framingham, btw).  My addition was to expand the kitchen.
So, if you're doing that, you (plus your s.o., if any) could possibly get
additional ideas. 

I acted as the general contractor, subcontracted most of it, but did (am doing)
things like finish carpentry, flooring, painting, etc.

	            

    
    
        Thanks for the info.
    
            I did look at using scissor roof trusses but wasn't
     sure if I wanted a tray ceiling, yet it would be nice to
     have someone else build these trusses for me. Where did
     you buy them, and what dimensions did you give? Also, did
     you use any exposed joists to prevent bowing of the walls,
     or did the scissor trusses give enough support? Did these
     prefab trusses come with 2"x3" construction with mechanical
     joint fasteners?
    
          In reference to the exposed collar ties, I didnt even
     think of this, the exposed larger beams would look nice, and
     still give me the full cathedral look. Did you also go with
     large exposed beam joists, and if so, how did you have these
     tie into the top of the supporting walls. My concern is that
     I could have potential bowing of my outer walls if the joists
     are not adequate due to size, spacing, or placement.
    
          Would it be better to secure the joist beams( I believe
     that I would use 8"x10") by means of a mechanical brace, or
     with a lag screw thru to the top of the walls sill plate.
     Since the frame of the addition will be conventional stick-
     frame, I am not familiar with all the techniques of attaching
     beams to 2"x6" construction. I will have a double top plate
     of 2"x6" for my walls, and I am looking at using(if I build
     my own trusses) the mechanical brackets instead of cutting
     the V groves.
    
          I have received a note from another DEC builder, who has
     used the prefab insulated ceiling panels. This wold eliminate
     alot of work, and give a better insulation factor for the
     cathedral. I was thinking of using 3-8"x10"x16+' for the joists.
     I believe this to be adequate for large snow accumilation, and
     I think that I will go with the exposed collar ties.
                     
        Thanks for the info,
          Scott

    The house I built back in '86 had a "Great Room" across the middle that
    was 19' X 31' such that the roof trusses had to span the 31'.  I used a
    sissors truss with a 4-in-12 pitch with no exposed beams to tie the
    walls.  The trusses held the walls together with no problem and
    provided enough space for insulation and a nice cathedral without any
    beams in the way.  I don't think you need to be concerned about bowing
    walls with manufactured trusses.  If you want the exposed beams for
    style, okay, but you don't need them for structural intigrity.
    
    John
    

The collar ties are the only exposed element, everything else is standard frame
construction - 2x6 walls, 2x10 joists, 2x12 ridge beam.  we user 8" lag screws
to attach the collar ties to the joists.

>>          Would it be better to secure the joist beams( I believe
>>     that I would use 8"x10") by means of a mechanical brace, or
>>     with a lag screw thru to the top of the walls sill plate.

My carpenter mentioned that he usually used 6x10's for his post and beam stuff -
8x10 might be overkill (my fireplace mantel is a piece of 6x10 fir that i
salvaged from my old screened porch).

As for attaching...My new screened porch, behind the addition, is timber frame
construction - using 4 x 10 fir beams.  the joists are attached to the sill
plate with 1" oak or birch dowels (birch after we ran out of oak).  We also
placed some gussets on the outside, where they are covered with facia.  where
the posts meet the upper sill plate, i have knee braces with 4 or 6" lag screws
that are covered by birch plugs. The collar ties on the porch are attached with
half lap joints with 2 dowels per side. The ceiling is 2x6 t&g spruce, the
ceiling joists are 4' o.c. with a 14' span.  it looks nice, and saved me money,
since I didn't have to finish the ceiling afterwards.  and, as I recall, the
spruce was only $.62 per linear foot, and I was paying $.59 per linear foot
for 1x6 t&g pine.

Harmony Exchange (800-756-9663) sells timber trusses.  I found their ad after I
was done, so I have not called them.  This looks like the type of truss for 
exposed ceilings.They could probably tell you what size truss you would need 
for your application (example from ad: 24' span, 6/12 pitch, 4' oc, in pine,
$375 each).  It probably takes around 42 lineal feet of wood to make the truss
(depending on how high the collar tie is), labor cost might be lower and 
appearance is probably better.  You might need a crane to get the things up.

There are a couple of articles in past FH magazines.  One is on a truss roof
on top of a stress skin panel wall system, the other is on combining post and
beam components in a stick frame wall system.  I know i have the former, maybe
the latter.  I see if I can find the articles.

    
    
        The new info was gretly appreciated. As of 8am this morning
     my design has changed. My wife saw a two story addition shown
     in a local realestate ad. She is now considering a two story
     addition with a cathedral on the top floor. No matter how I
     go, I will use the ideas given to me through this file.
    
        Keep the ideas flowing since I will not start this until
     march or april when taxe money arrives.
    
          Thanks,
            Scott S.

    
    
          She changed hr mind again!!!  We are back to a singel story
      addition. Still the 24' x 16' as before.  I have found  a company
      that makes 2"x4"x24' Trusses, these are dry wood trusses, so no
      or limited shrinking is expected, the cost is around $60 per
      truss, these are scissor trusses as you mentioned to me before.
      
         I calculated that I would need 8 regular, and 1 gable. The
      lumber yard that I went to stated that I would be better off if
      I bought 9 regular, and made one into a gabel by shuring it up
      with 2"x4" myself, this will save some money to put towards
      windows.
    
         Question?  How would your run a ridge beam to tie all the 
      trusses together for a scissor truss. Since the scissor truss
      already has the 2"x4" construction running into one common
      peak point, there is no room for running a ridge beam. Am I
      out to lunch here, and is there a diffrent way of doing this?
    
         I have taken your advice on the size of my exposed beam and
      now will be using a 8"x8", instead of a 10"x8" this is to much
      over kill for a beam that doesnt do anything. I will use two
      beams going the 16' width, and will have them spaced 8' apart,
      this will give me 8' space, beam, 8' space, beam, 8'space.
      My wife agrees with this so I am going to make her sign the 
      contract with this clause in it, so that she cant change her
      mind in mid-stream of the building.
    
    
        Scott

re: << Note 4461.7 by NAVIER::SSULLIVAN >>>

>         Question?  How would your run a ridge beam to tie all the 
>      trusses together for a scissor truss. ...

      I  think  the  general  answer to this is "you don't."  At least I
      don't think I've ever seen a ridge beam  with  roof  trusses.   As
      they're put up they're generally temporarily braced with pieces of
      2x4 spanning several trusses at right  (more-or-less)  angles  and
      nailed.   Then,  as the roof sheathing is installed, the temporary
      braces are removed.  
      
      You  can also nail 2x4s on the under side of the top member of the
      truss and/or on the upper side of the bottom member.  In this case
      these  braces can be left in place.  I think it IS common to leave
      these 2x4s on the upper side of the bottom members. The people who
      framed  my garage called them "rat races".  They add a good amount
      of rigidity, especially if there is no  ceiling  attached  to  the
      bottom or the trusses.  They're also a good place to run wiring.

      You  should, however, ask the truss supplier to advise you whether
      or not you need any  permanent  2x4  (or  other)  bracing.   Their
      engineer's  opinion  is  worth a lot more than all the comments in
      this notes file.

My guess is that I have seen some, maybe even all of these styles but I do not
reconize the names:

scissor trusses
collar ties (wood right?  Not metal...)
tray ceiling

re: .4:
    A 31' span ?  Wow.

Brian - one who notices but just doesn't know the name of the 'technique'.

    I looked in 1111.1, and I didn't see this topic. Correct me if wrong.
    
    I'm in the process of fixing up a bedroom.I removed the old ceiling,
    as it has "lost its key" in many places. After removing the old 
    plaster and lath, I'm wondering about furring strips.
    
    Some of my reference books show the ceiling blueboard attached directly
    to the ceiling joints. Other books show the use of furring strips,i.e
    1x3 wood strips nailed to the underside of the joists with a 16 inch
    spacing to provide a nailing surface to attach the blueboard too.
    
    Question, do you need to use furring strips? Are they just to "shim out
    " old sagging joists?
    
    I have post and beam construction, with sister joists nailed along side
    the ceiling joists, to level out the ceiling; the house was built in
    1830 with "salvaged" materials.
    
    
    Thanks.....
    
    Marc H.

    I can think of a few reasons why furring strips are useful
    (which might answer your question).
    
    1.   If you install fiberglass insulation, the furring strips will hold
    the insulation in place prior to drywall installation.
    
    2.   The furring strips provide an easier nailing surface (2-1/2" wide)
    than a ceiling joist (1-1/2") ... particularly at the joints.
    
    3.   Furring strips are relatively easy to install versus
    backing-boards at the walls (to support drywall on the edges).
    
    You may also consider installing the furring strips 12" OC rather than
    16" as you indicate.
    
    Bottom line ?  I can't say for sure if you MUST install them but they
    may make the total job easier...
    
    /Russ

    
    Also furring strips make it a lot easier in running wiring. You don't
    have to drill though any of the joists.
    
    Mike

   I would use furring strips for several of the reason listed in (.1). 
 
   However I would still drill out the joists if you are going to run wires (.2).
If you miss with a sheetrock screw and have just run the wire along the furring
strips then you could hit the wire. If your drill out for wiring in the center 
of the joists then you don't have to worry about hitting the wire with the 
sheetrock screws.  It is a much neater job, and with a descent 3/4" drill bit, 
really doesn't take to long. 

>>   However I would still drill out the joists if you are going to run wires (.2).
>>If you miss with a sheetrock screw and have just run the wire along the furring
>>strips then you could hit the wire. If your drill out for wiring in the center 

Thats why you don't run the wires next to the strips << EVER >>.  It may seem
"tidy" to run the wires right next to the wood, but even the best miss every
once in a while with the screws. 

A lesson taught to me long ago.

bjm

    Thanks so far fro the info. My wiring is in place....through the
    joists.  Is the furring needed for any structural strength?
    
    Marc H.

         The furring strips also help to give a level surface for
    the new blueboard. If you run a line across the joists from one
    side of the room to the other you'll probably find quite a bit
    of variation in joist height. When I hung blueboard in my basement
    I found quite a bit of variation. So I shimmed the strapping
    to create a fairly level surface.
         The furring will undoutedly add structural stregnth as the 
    strapping will act like bracing tying the joists together.
         I used a screw gun with drywall screws to secure the strapping
    to the joists which made the job go pretty quickly.
         I would start by finding the lowest spot of the joist bottoms
    and shim out from there. I ran a series of lines across the room
    to find this spot.
         Sounds like a lot of work but really wasn't that big a job.
    Good luck.
    Bob

I'm looking for info on how to repair a stained ceiling. The problem is that
one of the kids was playing too much in the tub. The spill over from the
bath room upstairs now shows a water stain on the ceiling in the kitchen.
There also could be a slight bulge as well. Not sure if this can be fixed
with out ripping the entire ceiling out and re-doing it.

The kitchen ceiling is one of those blown textured ceilings. You know,
the ones you touch and the stuff crumbles off.

Any ideas?

-barry

    
    get some Kilz paint which is designed to seal such stains, then get a
    paint sprayer to apply it. Since you will never actually touch the
    ceiling it should minimize anything flaking off.
    
    	As far as the "bulge" goes, I don't know. If it is really bad I
    might try to put in a few sheet rock screws with great care, then
    spackle over them with a bit of artistry before following the advice in
    the previous paragraph.

    You might try the following approach before you go to the time and
    trouble of spray painting your ceiling.  It worked for me.
    
    Dilute some household bleach with an equal amount of water and put it
    in a spray bottle.  Using eye and skin protection, lightly spray the
    stained area with the solution.  It may take several applications, and
    it may not even work well enough to satisfy you, but it's worth a try.
    
    Good Luck,
    
    Bob

    Special paint rollers are made for those kinds of ceilings.  They are
    basically sponges with deep groves.  I repainted an entire kitchen
    ceiling similar to yours with one of these rollers and didn't lose too
    much of the texture.

      How  big is the "bulge"?  That is, is the area that "bulges" a few
      inches wide?  Or a few feet wide?  If it is measured in feet,  you
      should  consider  replaceing  the ceiling, or at least the damaged
      portion of it.
      
      Explanation:   When  sheet rock becomes wet it looses its strength.
      The strength does NOT return when it dries. So a large "bulge" may
      indicate that the ceiling or a portion of it is about to come down
      on your head.  
      
      Now  don't  panic.  A bulge, particularly a smallish bulge, can be
      just the result of the swelling when the sheet rock becomes wet. A
      small  weakened  section is not a big problem.  BUT, if you have a
      large area sagging, fix it.
      
      If  I  were fixing a ceiling like this I would consider putting up
      second layer of sheetrock without removing the  existing  ceiling.
      This would save the bother of removing the existing ceiling.  Less
      dust, less disposal problem.  Just be  sure  to  use  screws  long
      enough  to  go  through  the original ceiling and grip the joists.
      (Knock a few holes to find where the joists are.)
      
      Before  doing  any  repair,  I'd be sure that the water problem is
      eliminated.

    Hi Charlie,
    
    I would say the bulge is about 1� feet by 7 or 8 inches, right next to
    the wall. Again it is a very slight bulge. However I wonder if it would
    be noticed if the stain was gone. I don't think it need replacing, but
    your idea is great and worth filing away.
    
    thanx
    
    barry

    I just fixed one almost the same size.  I used the technique called out
    in .1 but before I put in the screws I pushed the bulge up with a board
    to hold it up onto the joists.  This prevented the screws from going
    through the sheetrock and allowed the screws to share the load.  After
    applying the stain sealer I rolled on some ceiling paint.
    You can't tell where the stain was.
    
    Mark

    When I was re-painting my ceilings, I tried using straight Shellac to
    cover the stain prior to the paint. Worked great and was cheap.
    
    Marc H.

I am replacing a ceiling in an old house. I have taken down the plaster, and
have been able to ascertain that the lath and the joists are ok. I plan to 
leave the lath in place, and use either sheetrock or blueboard. I don't 
want to remove the lath, since the attic has poured insulation, which will
come down with the lath, and make for much cleanup. To get to the point,
should I put some sort of barrier (such as Tyvek) on the lath before I
put up the board? The house is not used or heated in the winter at this 
point, although it is a year-round house.

Any other problems with this plan?

Thanks

Joseph (doing one room at a time)

    
    The only reason for the barrier would be to stop moisture exfiltration.
    Tyvek will not do that. I would apply a 4-mil or better plastic sheet
    before the wallboard. Decent building suppliers have this stuff in
    10'x100' rolls. Thinner than 4-mil tears pretty easily. You can also
    get clear tape for joining sheets; duct tape also seems to work pretty
    well.
    

    I know that fiberglass insulation usually has a foil type backing, and
    since the insulation I plan to add on top of what poured insulation
    will not be backed, there should be something between insulation and
    the ceiling (there was no barrier put down when the previous owners
    poured insulation in the attic). If this barrier will not serve a
    purpose, I will save a step; but if it is useful, now is the only
    chance I will have to do it.
    
    Joseph
    

    What about taking out the lath( nice kindling), putting up furring
    strips, and then adding fiberglass insulation ? More work....but
    you will be set for life.
    
    Marc H.

    re: .14, wot he said:  
    
    Yes.  Get some 6-mil poly and put it over the lath, then put up the
    board.  If you overlap the joints in the poly by a couple of feet,
    you don't even need to tape it (my opinion, anyway).

    I am planning to add additional fiberglass insulation over the poured
    in insulation; I don't relish the though of all this poured insulation
    pouring down on me if I remove the lath. 
    
    Also, the plaster dust was bad enough; I don't want to spend my whole
    summer vacuuming whatever else comes down.
    
    Will the plastic cause any condensation problems for me in the ceiling?
    
    Thanks
    
    Joseph
    

If the poured-in insulation is cellulose, it's got a slightly higher R-value
than the equivalent amount of fiberglass.  In addition to the mess created
by getting rid of it and the question of what to do the stuff, that's another
good reason to keep it.

    re: .18
    Nope, you put the plastic on the warm (the room) side of the insulation
    to keep the water vapor in the warm (room) air from getting to where
    it is cold enough to condense (someplace in the middle of the
    insulation, perhaps, or in your attic).
    
    You'll want to use unfaced fiberglass insulation on top of the poured
    insulation.
    
    Good luck; I have to do basically the same thing sometime in my
    upstairs, and I dread the mess.  You've gotten through the worst
    of it though, getting the plaster down.

    When I have removed old ceilings....the time to rip down the plaster
    and the lath is maybe...30 mins. tops.
    
    
    Clean up is 6 hours, though.
    
    Marc H.

    Cover the floor with old sheets.  Manually remove the big pieces.  Fold
    up the sheets and take all the little junk out at once.  Your cleanup
    is now about 1 hour.

If most of the old ceiling is intact, don't take down the old plaster.

Go right over it with sheetrock and 2 or 3 inch drywall screws.  Find the studs,
mark the walls, place sheetrock in place, tack with a few screws, then snap
chalk lines the finish screwing in.

Saves 7 hours of work, plus dumpster charges, if you don't have a landfill
in town.

Just recently I sheetrocked over plaster and lath that had a 30 year old
tiled ceiling glued to it.   Just rock right over everything!  put few
extra screws in to support the extra weight they may have to support if the
plaster loosens.

SJ

    In my case, I needed to remove the old ceiling because:
    1. Since the old joists are on two foot centers, I wanted to add extra
       support from furring strips...placed every foot.
    
    2. Ceiling is at 7 foot height now,I don't have much space to loose.
    
    3. I wanted to add a closet and some wiring too.
    
    4. Ripping Down the ceiling is fun! The clean up is....well....
    
    Marc H.

    OK folks south of the border ... out of curiosity, what is a typical
    price down there for 2' * 4' fibreglass suspended ceiling tiles, and
    the tracks and cross pieces ?
    
    Wondering if a trip 60 miles south might save me sufficient money
    considering our rip off prices up here for many things ...
    
    Stuart

  Is there any concern in putting up blueboard on the ceiling directly over the
old horsehair plaster?  Such as what happens if the ceiling has to be opened 
due to getting wet or rewiring and all the old stuff comes out.  I don't want
to take down the old plaster because of the potential lead/asbestos it contains,
and would prefer to encapsulate it.
  Can skimcoats of plaster be put on over horsehair plaster walls?  Does it 
adhere well?  Anyone have any recent contractor referrals for this type of
work?
	Linda

    You can put blueboard directly over the old plaster, sure.  It would
    save a *LOT* of cleanup.  If the ceiling has to be opened...when did
    a ceiling last have to be opened?  Sure, IF you ever need to, then 
    you'll have to deal with the mess then, but how many times is that
    going to happen?
    Personally, I wouldn't do it because I see it as somewhat of a "patch"
    job and I'd rather do it "right", but that's actually just my own
    notions of "patch" and "right," mostly.  
    
    Well, not entirely.  A couple of reasons not to do it include:
    1. You'll have to redo all the trim around the windows and doors to
    compensate for the extra thickness.
    2. You'll have to space out all the electrical boxes, although I
    think there are collars you can buy for this that just screw on the
    face of the existing boxes...not sure though.
    3. You lose the opportunity to see what's in the walls and perhaps
    add insulation, do rewiring, etc.
    
    The big reason TO do it is to save making the gawd-awful mess that
    old plaster makes when it comes down.
    
    I don't think you could skimcoat over old plaster very well, although
    it probably "all depends."  If they've been painted a zillion times,
    almost certainly not; the plaster won't have a rough enough surface
    to key to.  If the existing walls are cracked and/or loose, there is
    no point to doing it; the skimcoat will crack in short order and the
    plaster will still be loose.
    
    

    In one of the rooms of the old house I have, I skim coated some of 
    the horsehair plaster walls (after applying a bonding agent). These
    walls were in better condition than the ones I ripped out and re-did
    entirely. I still just see this as a holding action, until I have the
    time to rip those out as well, but they look better and match the new. 
    
    If the house is very old, and the plaster is un-keyed, I like to rip
    the wall open to see what is going on, in terms of structure, possible
    insect damage etc. I also insulated at this time.
    
    
    
    Joseph
    
    

  I am only thinking of putting blueboard over the ceilings, not the walls.
The thickness change shouldn't be noticable there.  For the walls, I don't think
they have ever been painted.  This house has been in the family for _years_ and
the wallpaper looks like it has too.  I saw elsewhere in this file the
suggestion to surface coat walls with joint compound, and I am comparing that 
option to having a plaster skimcoat put on.  I would think  the horsehair
plaster would be a rough enough surface (provided it isn't painted and any 
wallpaper glue is washed off) to bond plaster?  Otherwise I may have to put
up new wallpaper everywhere, but I prefer the look of paint over plaster.
	Linda

Our walls are never-painted horsehair plaster and they're smooth as the
proverbial baby's bottom.

  So you don't see any advantage to a skimcoat for longterm wear and tear?
Did you paint them as is?
	Linda

If your ceiling's in good shape, why skimcoat it?  Our walls needed a little
spackling, but have generally been in good shape.  Some have been painted,
one room's awaiting paint, two others still need stripping.

�    Well, not entirely.  A couple of reasons not to do it include:
�    1. You'll have to redo all the trim around the windows and doors to
�    compensate for the extra thickness.
    
    Only if the door and window trim abut the current ceiling.
    
�    I don't think you could skimcoat over old plaster very well, although
�    it probably "all depends."  
    
    Isn't this done "all the time"?

�Our walls are never-painted horsehair plaster and they're smooth as the
�proverbial baby's bottom.
    
    That's probably because they had a finish coat put on them.  After
    stripping wallpaper in our house, we horsehair plaster walls that had
    never been painted and were fairly rough.  Apparently knowing they were
    going to be wallpapered over, the builder opted not to put on a finish
    coat.  We smoothed the wall over with joint compound in the real bad
    spots.  If I had to do it again and had the money, I would have hired
    someone to come in and skimcoat the walls.

    
    Where does the "potential lead/asbestos" problem come from with
    hair plaster? It would be pretty rare that the ceilings were painted
    with lead paint, which at least in this country was used for oil based 
    gloss paints. Plaster paints were usually calcomine, because oil based 
    paints typically don't stick. And where does the asbestos come into the 
    picture?
    
    Plasterboard can be installed straight over the original plaster
    ceilings without any problems - one needs to make sure to screw right
    through to the joists, though. If the problem is just that there are
    cracks in the ceiling, the least work solution is to paper the ceiling
    with kraft backing paper.  This is like thin cardboard (maybe 0.5mm)
    and has a lightly textured and a smooth face - choose the side you want
    for the finish.
    
    If the ceiling is loose,  rather than just cracked, then it will be
    better to remove the plaster, as eventually it will give up and bow the
    plasterboard between fixing points and you will have a "wavy" ceiling.

	Thanks for all the (if somewhat conflicting) advice!  We just want
	to take the approach that will give us an attractive and long-lasting
	interior.  Re the lead/asbestos problem, my partner is working on a 
	state study of lead paint and health effects so we are more paranoid
	than the average person.  The horsehair plaster walls can be hazardous
	to your health if you generate a lot of dust from them such as when
	they are torn down.  There is a note on the subject in this file
	somewhere and I'm not remembering the exact facts at the moment.
	Even "natural" woodwork is not necessarily safe since lead was
	sometimes added to the varnish as a drying agent.  You really can't
	win.  But anyway something like 30% of the lead poisoning cases in
	Mass. right now are from DIY home renovations.
		Linda

    
    I just had a screen porch built off the back of my house.
    Dimensions are appx. 10 X 14 with a gabled roof/open ceiling.
    
    The screens are about 5 feet high on top of a 3 foot wall around.
    When it rains unless its a windy rain the floor stays fairly dry.
    
    I am going to finish the inside myself. I'm gonna cover the walls
    with rought cut ship-lap pine and the ceiling with probably 4 inch
    v-groove pine or something like that. THE QUESTION I have is ......
    
    What would be the best finish for the ceiling. I would like to stain
    it a light color then polyurethane. BUT like I said the inside of 
    the porch doesnt get that wet but just with screens there is plenty 
    of moisture. Im concerned will the polyurethane hold well, OR is
    there a better finish for this case?
    
    DH
    

Use "Spar Varnish" which is available in urethane formulations (for example,
Minwax "Helmsman" Spar Urethane).  It is designed for exterior use.

			Steve

    
    Thanks Steve - I have seen that stuff in the stores and when you
    mentioned it I remembered.
    
    DH

    
       Would it be cheaper to use T1-11 (4" or 8" spacing) instead
     of ship-lap?  It would give that rough finish effect.
    
                         Mark

    While staining and urethaning around my fiberglass tub area I
    (or my husband) dripped either or both on the tub.  I've tried
    using turpentine, paint thinner to get rid of the drip marks, but
    nothing worked.  I even tried Skin so Soft, (mineral spirits), but
    that didn't work.  So I cleaned the tub and applied Gel Gloss to
    coat and protect the tub. Is there any hope of getting the stain
    and/or urethane drips off the tub now?
    
    

    
      It would be cheaper but I want to give that Indoor finished look.
    
      T1-11 is great for siding and such. 
    
      Dave

    
    Do this just like you would do a boat.
    
    Get some fibreglass paint remover (save to use on Pibreglass) and
    remove all the drips
    
    clean up any stains with Fibreglass rubbing compound
    
    use a good fibreglass polish - one of the ones with "POLY" in it
    
    
    all materials availabnle at most boat delaers/ marinas/maruine supply
    stores.
    
     
    

    Try a product called Pentoff.  It's a paint remover designed to protect
    the gelcoat.

    
    We are having some work done to the house we just bought.  We are
    having some electical work done first and then intend to have a
    plasterer come in and replaster some ceilings.  This way he can touch
    up some places the electrician had to damage.  But if we want to have 
    some recessed lights installed by the electrician, would that pose a
    problem if we have that ceiling replastered?  In other words, is it
    better to have the recessed lights installed first and then replaster
    the ceiling or is it better to replaster and then install the recessed 
    lights? 

ALWAYS lights first.  If the electrican can not get a wire snaked to an area,
this give him/her the option of making a bigger hole to get it in!  I love to
hear "Don't worry about the celing , I am having it re-done after your
finished"!

Brian J.

	This is  my  first experience painting a contemporary cathedral-ceiling
	room (and painting period).

	Since the entire room basically feels like one giant ceiling, I decided
	that  I  should  only use one paint for the entire room (instead of one
	for  the  walls  another for the ceiling) so it's all the same shade of
	white.

	Where I  might  have  gone  wrong is that I decided to use Behr ceiling
	paint  to be my one paint for the whole room.  I'm painting ultra-white
	over  white,  I  used two gallons for half the room (so I'm not sparing
	the  paint,  I  think),  and  it  still  comes out looking splotchy and
	non-uniform.  I washed the walls beforehand so that can't be it.

	It seems  to  go on a little watery (even though it's mixed well).  And
	I'm  going to have to give the entire room a second coat (a rotten task
	with  all  the  wood  work  the  keep  clean  and  difficult  height of
	ceilings).   I think I should have bought a different paint that's good
	for needing only one coat (I thought I had already bought that). 

	Is it  the  fact  that I'm using ceiling paint (how does it differ from
	wall  paint?)  or is it that this not-so-cheap ultra-white Behr ceiling
	paint is poor quality for painting already-painted drywall? 
                                                                                 
	I need  to buy another two gallons, should I finish with the same paint
	or  did I really miss it by using ceiling paint & I should do the whole
	room in wall paint? Sigh...

	-Erik

	PS- I  bought  cheapo wall paint for the closets, and that went on fine
	in  one coat.  I have a feeling that ceiling paint is just watered down
	wall paint (then why is it just as expensive?).