Conference 7.286::home_work

I'm no expert at all on chimneys.  I'd be scared to do it myself, but
I do have one comment.  Sheet metal seems awful thin and flimsy for a 
flue.  I'd use tile.

- Paul

If the flues are straight and large enough, an experienced mason can install
a tile liner (in sections) using a device that lowers the sections from the
top of the chimney.

Another techinque I've heard of involves putting a balloon-like device down
the chimney, pouring a morter-like lining material around the balloon,
waiting for the material to harden, and then removing the balloon.

The chimney that we wanted to use in our old house for a wood stove was in
such poor shape (e.g., creosote leaks though old patches) that we had the
old chimney torn down and replaced with a new, lined chimney.  We felt that
the cost (about $1200 in 1979) was a worthwhile investment in our house,
especially when the cost of a metal liner (kludge) was several hundred dollars
(and a lot of hassle).

-- Ward

I recently saw in a CONSOLIDATED DUTCHWEST ( Plymouth, MA? ) catalog a metal
liner that you can slip down your chimney. You can get a copy of the catalog
by filling out the post-paid reply card that accompanies their ad. The ad
can be found in many of the DIY or Woodworking magazines.

						- Bruce -

I had a similar problem, old house, mortar falling out 
from between the bricks.

Royal Chimney Sweep, Merrimack, NH, installed a stainless
steel liner.  Guaranteed for ten years.

We've used it for two heating seasons with no problems.

They also install concrete and ceramic liners


Bill D.

	I have an old center chimney cape-three fire places
	plus BEE HIVE OVEN.  Had the whole thing relined
	using "Balloon" (formers) method mentioned in note
	4.2.  The BIG plus using this method is that it
	strengthens the chimney by filling any void between
	the bricks or old flue liner.  Lots of other info
	too numerous to mention here.  Send mail to

			SPMFG1::FRANCISCO

			or call 243-2472

RE: Brick Chimney rebuild /lining options

 We've been living in our (first-owned, built ca.1920) house for 1+half
 years, taking it very  slowly in the repairs & improvements Dept.

 One of the most major ($) projects so far was getting our Tower-of-Pisa
 chimney rebuilt from the roof up. (BTW, estimates ranged from $200 to over
 $700... we didn't go with the lowest bid 'cause the guy couldn't/wouldn't
 give us names of any people he'd done masonry work for) 

 At the time (several weeks before GLORIA, timely) we asked about getting
 it lined. they told us it wouldn't do any good to just get the top lined,
 and gave us to understand that they weren't too interested in doing the
 whole thing, and we shouldn't be either...

 ? WHEN should one RE-line a chimney? Is there a fire/other hazard to having
 an old chimney without a flue liner?

RE: why line a chimney

If you have a chimney fire in an unlined chimney, you run the real risk of
having the chimney crack, giving the fire access to whatever combustible
material surrounds the crack.  This can mean a very serious house fire
rather than a scary, but less serious chimney fire.

Chimney fire are usually only a threat in chimneys fed by an air-tight
wood stove.  Fireplaces, leaking wood stoves, coal stoves and oil/gas
furnaces don't present a problem.

-- Ward

re: .6 & Esp. .7

re: Reasons for lining an old chimney  :^)

Pardon my naivete, but one of my references is the OHJ (constantly
referenced by others). The situation, as I understand it, is this.
I also knew a person who is on the Mont Vernon volunteer fire department,
who relished telling about harrowing chimney fire stories.

Old houses often had structural members passing through the chimney walls,
forming part of the chimney structure as well. When a fire does occur, these
often exposed beams can ignite, and carry the fire to outside the chimney,
often hidden behind walls and other obscure places.

The chief cause of chimney fires is an accumulation of resins in the
chimney, caused by burning too cool to carry away the residues; green wood;
soft, high resinous woods like pine.

There are burning techniques to reduce these resins, and even to clean out
small accumulations.

The reasons to reline a chimney aren't base on age, but rather the condition
of the chimney (mortar, lost bricks, etc) which provide a void (holes) through
the chimney structure.

I lived in an older home in Nashua (ca. 1900), and the exterior of the 
chimney (exposed in the attic) was coated with black resin from leaks
through the chimney.

From my ol' buddy in the fire dep't; I understand that if a chimney fire
occurs, a superheated chimney can ignite this resin on the OUTSIDE of the
chimney, thereby causing and intense house fire (which may or may not be
easily detected, due to the roaring chimney fire in progress).

If anyone has information to the contrary of what I have just submitted,
I would like to see (read, know) the references so I can look it up
for myself, and set my freinds straight.

						Bob_the_hiker :^)

BTW - Gas furnaces and devices should not share the same chimney with
a live flame device, such as wood stove. THe reason being that the gas
furnace vents its burner to the chimney. So if there's a problem
with gas seeping out, and up the chimney; there's a potential bomb 
situation.

This is what I got from the Medford Fire Department when they learned my
mother had a wood stove connected to the gas furnace chimney.
                                         

I have been a member of the fire department in my town for 12 years and
my father was a member for 23 years before that. I could use up all
the disk space on this system with stories about chimney fires, some
which burned the house as well. In fact my fathers house burned about
12 years ago (yes, it had something to do with my joining the department)
and the cause was a crack in the fireplace. Carbon had built up in the
crack and that night we had a good fire going and evidently the carbon,
which starts to glow and will flow when very hot, got into the wall.
$23K structural damage (1975). There are many house fires started by
a crack in the chimney, lined or unlined. If you burn wood or coal, an 
inspection periodicaly of the chimney is a must. 
  As for chimney liners, be careful because an improperly lined chimney
can give you a real false sense of security. If the linning is done by
lowering liner sections down, the joint between sections must be sealed 
right or, as you may guess, you have another crack. Deposits from the
smoke can build up and if heated, as in the carbon, start to flow.
If there are cracks in the outer shell of the chimney, the over the course
of a few years you could get a path of the stuff that could be the mechanism
to burn you house.
  Many people may have a chimney fire and not know it. We have pulled up
to a house, started to place ladders and have had an irate owner come
out wanting to know why he had people walking on his roof. Some chimeny
fires go out by themselves. In the old days, people let a chimney fire
run its course and only made sure that the sparks didnt start a roof or
barn fire. The risk of course is the chimney may have a fault. If you
read histories of small towns, house fires were common and the chimney
was a common source.
  Something else, in an old hose that was built with a stove pipe holes in
the chimney for every room, many people will block of most off these when
renovating a house. This was the case two years ago. Chimeny fire heated
up the metal plug blocking one of these holes, melted the plug and totaled
the house. Owner was slow to call in the chimney fire because it was only
a chimney fire.
                 

bill

While there are several notes about all these subjects;
I just want to interject a new note about another source of information.

The October issue of COnsumers Reports has several comprehensive articles
about : Woodstoves, Chimney fires, Rebuilding/Relining chimneys,
woodstove catylytic converters (sparse), Household Air pollution, Heat Pumps,
and Heat Exchangers (for woodstoves).
                      
If you can't find a copy in yur local library, then try another library.
Generally the CD don't circulate, anyway, but you might be able to copy
the stuff you're interested in.

Of particular note, is that once a chimney fire starts, the FLue pipe to
the top of the chimney rises to about 1500 - 1700 degrees fahrenheit.

They also have a LIST of chimney relining materials, contractors, and
sources.

The woodstove section is their comparative analysis as with other
types of products. (A is better than B because of reasons a,c,f,g,i) etc.

    During major rain storms like one week ago the front face of my
    fire place gets wet and drips on the fireplace doors. I had that
    happen once before during our hurricane last winter. I thought I
    corrected it by building up cement against the chimney liner at
    the top of the chimney so water would drain away from the liner.
    Could there be that much rain falling into the chimney to cause
    that. Is my best bet to get one of those hoods for the top of the
    chimney??
                                                       any ideas,
                                                       Ed

    
    I think I would check the flashing where the chimney meets the roof,
    and then the caulking between the chimney and the siding. Sounds
    more like rain trickling down the outside than the inside.

    I feel my roof flashing is ok! but I know that my vinyl siding buts
    up against the brick and there is know caulking there. Thanks I
    will have to give it a try.
                                    Ed

    
    
    Sometime it is caused by cracks in the mortar that cap the top of the
    chimney. The water can come down along the outside of the liners but
    inside the bricks.  It is pretty simple to seal the crack, of course
    this could be a tough job if you have one of those long chimney
    that seem to hang up in the air.
    

    I had put additional cement at the chimney cap to pitch the water
    away from the liner after the first leak after last years hurricane.
    It only happens after a driving rain storm. The all day type of
    storm. Caulking between the chimney and the siding sounds like a
    good idea. Is it too cold for silicon caulking at this time of year?
                                                               Ed

    Re: .3
    
    Just in case anyone is going to undergo the task.  Mortar should not 
    be used to cap a chimney!  Portland cement is normally used.
                                                         
    					Steve

    RE: Is it too old to use Silicone?
    
    The temperature at which it is too cold to use Silicone is when
    you are outside and you speak something and the words crystalize
    in mid-air and crash to the ground. Other than this it's ok. ;)
    
    By Silicone, I assume you mean GE Silicone II [Is there anything
    else?] which does remain workable/plyable to -40 degrees or some
    such ridiculous temperature.
    
    Charlie

   Advise needed...my chimney seems to be blocked.  

   For the second time in three weeks, I attempted to light a fire 
   in the wood stove in my basement -- and the smoke would not draft.
    
   Background:
   The house is 9 months old.  Chimney is brick, clay flue lined.  Three
   flues; 1 for the oil fired furnace, 1 for a first floor fireplace,
   and 1 for the stove in the basement.  
    
   I installed the stove 7 or 8 months ago; have used it a dozen times
   (at most); and it (had) drafted excellent.  In the dozen or so uses,
   I have burned scrap lumber (pine/oak/particle board), and a few pine and
   oak 5-7" diameter logs.  I've generally burned the stove hot for
   short (4 to 6 hour) periods; sufficient to heat my workshop. 
 
   Two weekends ago, I lit a fire, and ended up using a fire extinguisher
   to kill the fire as the smoke backed-up.  Yesterday, after cleaning
   the extinguisher residue in the stove, I attempted to burn a single
   sheet of newspaper to check the draft, and it backed up again.
    
   There doesn't appear to be snow covering the top of the chimney.
   I have checked the first floor fireplace both visually (looking-up
   the firebox) and by burning an open fire this past Saturday and it 
   drafts/burns fine.

   My thoughts are; 
     A piece of snow/ice dropped down the chimney and is blocking the flue;
     A dead animal (at least 8" in diameter??) is stuck in the flue;
     or ????
    
   Short of climbing up on the roof (it's a tall 2 story colonial),
   can anyone offer any ideas on how I can check for WHATS blocking 
   the flue and HOW to remove/melt the problem?
    
   Thanks, Jim.
    
    

    
in order to check for blockage, get a small mirror and insert it in
    the clean-out door at the bottom of the flue, or remove the stovepipe
    and insert the mirror through the thimble. if the flu is open/clear
    you should be able to see the sky by holding the mirror at the correct
    angle.
    
    
    

    Thanks for the fast response.  
    
    As I supervised the Chimney construction, I know the basement flue
    tapers to the right about 10 - 12 feet up.  The other 2 flues go
    straight-up.  
    
    Think I'll be able to see sky (light) even with the sharp bend??
    
    

     I wouldn't be surprised if you have no blockage at all. In cold
    weather it is very common to have a downdraft in an otherwise unused
    flue. (the air in it is cold and thus wants to sink)
      Your problem has happened to me. You merely have to get a draft
    started and then it will continue ok. Start by opening a nearby window
    or door a few inches, and then try to create a draft by igniting
    some loosely rolled newspaper and putting it as far into the fluepipe
    as possible. Have your fire ready to light and as soon as the draft
    starts, light the main fire. Then you can close the door or window.
    
     One thing that can contribute to this problem is a long (over 2')
    horizontal run of pipe out of the stove.
     One way that may help to minimize the problem is to install a chimney
    cap of the type that is meant to enhance the draft.
    
    			Hope this helps
    					Kenny

	If your furnace is running when the stove refuses to
	draft, it could be that the furnace is drawing combustion air
	down the stove's flue.  Opening a window or some other vent path
	for the furnace ought to help.

	Have you heard the Northwoods story about the stove that
	drew so well, it shot everything up the flue, including
	the farmer's dog, the farmer, and finally itself, inside-out?

    Re: 3;  I've heard of cold air in the flue affecting draft however,
    I've used the stove on similarly cold days and no problem.  Also,
    if settling of cold air is the problem, why haven't I had any problems
    with the 1st floor fireplace?
    
    Re: 4;  Nope.  The furnace was not running.  Also, I have my inside
    (exterior steel) basement door off...so there's plenty of draft
    sneaking through the bulkhead.  
    
    

    I second .3 opinion on downdrafts.  Stove design as well as room
    configuration and local topography can cause downdrafts.  I've had
    2 woodstoves in my kitchen.  The first model, a Franklin type, never
    was affected by downdrafts no matter how cold the weather.  Our
    new one with its deeper fire box almost always requires pre-warming
    of the chimney with the lighted newspaper roll.
    
    One easy way to see if you have a downdraft is to open the stove
    door and look inside.  If there's downdraft, you'll feel the cold
    air on your face.  Or, light a match and hold it inside near the
    flu damper.  Watch which way the flame blows.
    
    If you want to try pre-warming the flu, I've found that standing
    a roll of newspaper vertically in the flu before lighting it works
    effectively.
    
    Re your fireplace.  I've also never encountered a draft problem
    in my fireplace which is on the opposite end of the kichen.

I read somewhere (here, probably...) that +40 is the optimum temperature to 
caulk -- lower than that it might not stick (even if it is pliable), above that 
the joint you're caulking won't have expanded as much. Good silicon caulk (like 
the aforementioned GE) will "go with the flow" when a joint expands; the cheap 
stuff is apt to crack. By caulking at 40ish, the gap is already at its widest, 
and may compress the caulk, but won't pull it apart.

At least that's the theory :-)

-scott

particle board!!! that's a no-no (at least is was for me!).

I burned a bunch in my fireplace and I guess all that glue vaporizing 
and hitting the cold air near the chimney top condensed and formed an 
actual seal in the flue.  It wasn't until a couple of week later when 
the snow on the roof melted that I went up there and cleared it out with 
my handy-dandy chimney sweeping kit.  If heights/roofs don't freak you 
out, for around $40 you can buy everything you need to sweep your own 
chimney at Spags.  It pays for itself the first time and then you never 
have to worry about when to sweep next.  Just wait for a nice day and in 
around 10 minutes you'll have a nice clean chimney.

-mark

    Thanks for all the good advice!!  I checked my chimney this weekend
    using the "mirror thru the clean-out door" trick, and there is plenty
    of daylight.  Opening the clean-out door, the problem became obvious...
    seems I've got a very strong cold breeze settling in the flue.  Open
    the stove door (or chimney clean-out) and the breeze hits you in the face.

    I tried using newspaper in the flue as a prewarm, but the downdraft is
    too strong, (the colder the outside temperature, the worse the problem).   
    
    Has anyone had any experience with those electric "fan-in-flue-pipe" 
    do-hickies they sell to create draft?
    
    Jim. 

    

See if you can find out where the air that is rushing down the chimney is 
going.  First, check to see if you get the downdraft only when your furnace is 
running, or all the time.  Assuming that it's all the time, look for major air 
leaks in the house, particularly on the upper floors.  We had exactly the same 
problem at my parents' house, and it was a fairly tight, new construction 
house.  We finally figured that the only place it could be going was up through 
the pull-down stairway to the attic.  We bought a sheet of 1" beadboard 
insulation, and made a tight-fitting cap to cover the stairway opening.  Bingo!
The cold draft down the chimney was gone.  To say nothing of the fact that a 
major heat loss was stopped up.

Paul

    Chimney caps are available which causes an updraft when the wind
    blows across it.
    
    -al

    I need to do some work around the chimney, one of things to do is
    some pointing work. I was told that OHJ has an article on chimney
    pointing, could someone supply me with a copy to look at? Thanks.

    Ed
    

	Here's my problem: I need to cut a 6" dia. hole into an existing 
flue-liner. Is there any other way to accomplish this other than a series 
of holes using a masonary bit? This takes too much time and I'm afraid of
cracking the liner.
I'm hoping for maybe some type of file or blade that would fit a saws-all
or something that will fit in there.
	And one more question I have is after this hole is roughened out 
is a mortar seal needed between the stove pipe and the flue-liner?

					All help appreciated,
					Jim 

    You may want to try one of the carbide grit blades availible
    for saws-all they work very well on terracotta drain tiles.
    Cutting is slow and creates alot of heat so go slow and take your
    time to prevent the blade from over heating and failing too soon
    or use a low speed if you have it.
    
    -j
    

There was a discussion not long ago about putting a fireplace on an outside 
wall, but I couldn't find it.  I looked through masonry keyworded notes, and 
basement keyworded notes, but no luck.  Oh well.  That's how we manage to have 
over 800 topics in here.

So.  Suppose you are going to add a fireplace to an outside wall.  You have no 
option of putting it in an interior location.  Is there any way to insulate it?
For example, isn't vermiculite just basically fluffed minerals?  Would it 
withstand the high heat of a chimney interior?  If it won't, is there anything 
that will?  If it would, you could fill the interior chimney space between the 
firebox and the outside wall with it, and it would make a very significant 
difference in the amount of heat lost.  

Thoughts?

Paul

I would think that if you were going to add a chimney, you would insulate it
such that the chimney was inside your house, insulkation wise...

After all, you can't get away from heating the fireplace/chimney, so it might
as well be inside, where you want the heat...

Is this what you're doing?

Jim. 

OK, the case is this:  the chimney in question is for the hall at our church.  
The hall is your basic cinderblock building, and as such is not as homey as one 
could ask for.  One of the suggestions is to add a fireplace along one wall.  
There is simply nowhere to put a fireplace such that it is on an interior wall.
I've been looking into the possibility of putting this thing in this summer.
Since you ask, this is what I've been thinking of:

				(looking down)


                _____________________________________________
                |___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|
		| |   This space filled with insulation   | |
		|_|  ___________________________________  |_|
		| |  |___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___| |  | |
		|_|  | | Air space for heating vents |_|  |_|
		| |  |_|       _______________       | |  | |
		|_|  | |      /\__|___|___|__ \      |_|  |_|
________________| |  |_|     / /             \ \     | |  | |________________
existing| wall	|_|  | |    /\/    Rumford    \/\    |_|  |_|        |
________|_______| |__|_|___/ /    Fireplace    \ \___|_|__| |________|_______
		|_|___|___|_/                   \_|___|___|_|

The only added costs are for the extra wall inside the chimney, which can use 
cheap block or something, and the cost of the insulation itself.  I don't even 
think it will get that hot, given that there's the air space between it and the 
firebox.  What do you think?

Paul

    Instead of putting the fireplace through the existing wall, why
    don't you put it just inside of the wall?  This shouldn't take much
    more space, and should have the same utility of having it on an
    interior wall.  i.e. Change your picture to look like this:
    
    

_____________________________________________________________________________
existing| wall   |        |        |        |        |        |        |
________|________|________|________|________|________|________|________|_____
		     |___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___| |
		     | | Air space for heating vents |_|
		     |_|       _______________       | |
		     | |      /\__|___|___|__ \      |_|
                     |_|     / /             \ \     | |
                     | |    /\/    Rumford    \/\    |_|
                     |_|___/ /    Fireplace    \ \___|_|
                     |____|_/                   \_|____|


    
    
    
    Rich

> Put it inside the wall, not through the wall 

Well, I hadn't thought of that, and it's a good idea, but I don't think it will 
fly.  The intrusion of the chimney into the room would be a problem.  It would 
be fine when the ropom is used as a large hall, but there are partitions to 
divide the room into smaller rooms, and the room that the chimney was in would 
be quite crowded.  Plus, It will make going through the roof much more 
difficult.  Does anyone know of any reason why the vermiculite idea won't work?

Paul

    I hereby nominate 817.2 (and .3 by way of plagiarism) for the "Best
    Descriptive Picture in HOME_WORK Award (VTxxx category)" for 1987.
    
    -joet

    
        the  vermiculite should work ok.  when i had cracked tiles in
    my exterior wood stove chimney in the middle of last winter, i had
    the chimney relined with a stainless steel flue...  the contracter
    filled the space between the stainless steel and the tiles with
    vermiculite, and i've seen no problem until just a week ago, when
    i had a small chimney fire. the stack thermometer on the inside
    pipe reached 900+ degrees before i got the fire out....when i looked
    through the clean-out door outside, i could see that some of the
    vermiculite had melted... i doubt that you'd generate that kind
    of temperature in a fireplace, so your plan should work ok....
    
    ske
    

	I once had an attic insulated with a variety of insulations:
	rock wool, fiberglas flakes, fiberglas blanket, and what I
	think was vermiculite.  Is vermiculite the funny little
	flakes that look like mica, about 1/4" across?  This stuff
	was dark, mostly blackish-grey.

	I tested some of the little flakes with a propane torch to see
	whether they would burn.  They would glow red while in the flame,
	but show no reaction once I removed the flame.  If it was
	vermiculite, it doesn't jibe with .6's seeing some melted stuff
	at what ought to have been cooler than a propane flame.

	I don't remember trying to ignite the fiberglas flakes.

	Anyhow, if you can get a sample of stuff, try to burn it.

	Regards.

	I think I remember seeing an article that talked about the
	"new safe materials" for chimneys and there was something
	mentioned about insulation for between the flue and the
	chimney block.  Would this be what you are looking for?
	I could dig up the article and send you a copy.  Might
	be expensive stuff tho...

	-gary

Yes, Please, I'd love a copy of the article.

Thanks
Paul

    Vermiculite is Mica that has been expanded by the use of steam.
    Really soaks up the water..
    

re < Note 817.9 by BEING::WEISS "Trade freedom for security-lose both" >
                     -< I can always decide not to buy it >-

> Yes, Please, I'd love a copy of the article.

I'll fire you off a copy tomorrow....

-gary

    When I built an exterior chimney a few years ago, the building
    inspector recommended I insulate the space between the liner and
    chimney block with perlite.
    
    
    Mark
    

	Sorry for not getting around to this til now.  (Gotta work 
	sometimes)  The following is a brief summary on the article
	I mentioned -.?.  

	"The World's Toughest Chimneys" by David Lyle, published in
	the 1986/87 issue of "Woodheat" magazine.

	David Lyle is the author of "The Book of Masonry Stoves" and
	owner of The Heating Research Co. of Acworth, NH.  He's also
	a volunteer fireman who writes with the experience of extinguishing
	many a chimney fire.

	He claims that basically american masonry chimneys are poorly
	designed when it comes to being used for the new airtight and
	catalytic stoves.  During a chimney fire the will often be temps
	of 2000 deg F or higher.  This can cause all kinds of problems.
	Materials nearby may get hot and catch fire, creasoste can leak
	through imperfect joints and cause fire to spread along the 
	creasote "trail".

	Your basic chimney is only 5/8" clay tile, 1/2" airspace and maybe
	4" of brick.  During a chimney fire the fire will draw into the 
	flue through the chimney's brickwork and cause the joints to 
	further expand.  Ordinary mortar performs poorly above 800 deg F
	and looses 1/2 it's strength above 900 deg F.

	So much for the problem.  The Europeans started making their 
	masonry stoves idiot proof many years ago.  Things they were
	trying to accomplish were to insulate the flue and contain condensation
	(creasote).  Methods used were:

	1) New safe flue liners.  Using light sand-stone mixtures (pumice)
	   which insulate and keep flue gases warmer than clay tiles.
	   Some of these  liners have also been tested at up to 1800 deg F
	   then doused with cold water and not shown any signs of damage.

	2) Flue insulation.  Three common types are mineral wool, air, and
	   a poured mix of a light aggregate and portland cement.  There 
	   are also precuts which basically are a 1" jacket that slides 
	   in between the flue liner and block.

	There are also some modular units that combine both of the above
	plus have the outer masonry attached as well.

	There, well I hope I didn't get off the subject too far......

	-gary
 

	THE FACTS:
	
	While chipping away the damn ice (or is it ice dam) on the roof
	this winter, I happened to notice the poor condition of the top
	of the chimney.  Specifically, the mortar between the bricks seems
	to be completely falling out and the cement on the top is also
	breaking away.  The condition of the rest of the chimney within
	the house appears to be fine.

	THE QUESTIONS:

	Is this a problem I should tackle? (I've never done masonry before)
	Should the chimney be taken down to the first row of "good" bricks?
	Should I pick out the loose mortar and try to stuff new mortar in?
	Should I practice on my neighbor's chimney first? ;-)

	Any suggestions or recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

	Phil

What's your mailstop?  I happen to have a couple of copies of Fine Homebuilding 
in here at work (to enter the Great Moments stories), and there just happens to 
be an article here on repointing brickwork.  I'll copy it and send it to you.

Paul

    Howdy, Paul.  I have the identical problem and I want to take
    care of it this summer.  Would you mind sending me a copy as
    well?  My mail stop is CXO1-2/N22.  Thanks.
    
    Sid

	I remember a couple of years ago when they went through the Mill
	(MLO that is) and repointed much of the existing brickwork.  It
	came out pretty nice I seem to remember.  It didn't look like a
	very hard job.

	-gary

    
    Re: .1
    
    That sounds great!!!  My mail stop is WFR1-1/H2.  This file is the
    greatest thing that ever happened to us first time home owners.
    
    Thanks,
    Phil

    re .1  ...
    
    i also have that problem... what's the month/year of that issue
    of fine homebuilding?    i can get it at the library.
    
    steve
    

    It is normal for the mortor to fall out as you described and should
    be a preiodic maintence item for anyone with a chimmney.  Not every
    year, but regular inspections are warrented.  Pointing is easy,
    you just have to fill the voids with mortor.  Just don't use your
    fingers as I once did, it wore three layers of skin off.  Pointing
    tools are cheap.

    I tried this in the STOVES conference, but I guess nobody there
    does masonry...
    
    ---
    
    Soon I need to put a cap on the chimney to keep the upcomming monsoon
    out of the stove pipe and from dripping down inside the fireplace.
    
    So, I have a few large pieces of slate, and am going to be getting
    some bricks to finish the fireplace and hearth soon.  What is the
    'best' way to put the cap onto the top of the chimney?
    
    						.dave.
    

>    What are you going to use for the cap?
    
    a very big piece of slate supported by bricks. 
    
    My question is, how far off the top of the chimney should the slate
    be attached (1 brick, 2 bricks,).  Should the bricks be vertical
    or horizontal?  Should I tilt the slate of leave it flat......
    
    						.dave.

    
    Good point - cleaning.  I guess it would be tough to clean with
    the slate in the way.
    
    But, I need to keep in mind that the slate is free, and the bricks
    are really close to free, and the work will be done by myself
    and a friend who has done masonry.  So, I still can not justify
    buying a SScap.  
    
    I guess I'll have to drill through the slate, through the brick
    too, into the chimney (slightly) to install some reinforcement
    rods, and slip the slate over the rods.  This way I can easily
    remove the slate for cleaning.  It shouldn't weigh more than
    a few (20?) pounds.
    
    Hmm.  Something to think about...
    
    						.dave.

    When I lived in N.H.several years ago I built my own chinney and
    used a slate top like you mentioned......
    looks sorta like this
    
    
                  __________________
                 |__________________|----SLATE
                  |___|        |___|
                  |___|        |___| ----HALF BRICK(IF I REMEMBER 4)
                  |___|        |___|
                  |___|________|___|              
                  |________________|
                  |________________|
                  |                |
    PLACE THE MORTERED HALF BRICK W/GOOD FACE OUT AT EACH CORNER,MAKING
    SURE THET TOP COURSE IS LEVEL........PLACE SLATE ON TOP (YOUR DONE)

    
    re .6; No, but another huricane might!
         
    re .5; thanks.  Finally an answer I was looking for.  I was thinking
    of only 2 bricks, but you picture shows four.  Does this give sufficent
    draft?
    
    						.dave.

    REF.875.5 if I remember right it was 4 halfbricks and the slate
    rested right on top w/no problem,,an the wind never bothered it.
    One good result was with a high wind like Jan/Feb nights sometimes
    give us the chinney didn't give me any downdrafts.It did before
    I put that slate on....any questions you can call me at dtn 221-5425
    
    gary reynolds

    Two unrelated questions, but in the interest of disk space...
    
    Will landfills (in my case Stow/Hudson) take old block from a torn
    down chimney?  Given the hassle of loading them up, I'd hate to
    have the guy tell me to turn around.
    
    I'm experiencing some funny electrical happenings in the house(no
    drugs involved!).  I'd like to talk to the local company (Hudson
    Elect).  Has anyone ever traced a problem to their wires and/or
    transformers.  Will they even think  I'm serious?
    
    
    Chris

    Is the torn down chimney brick?  Lots of people like old used
    brick so they may even cart it off for you.
    
    -al

    As for your second question about Hudson Electric they also supply
    power to my house in Boxborough. They have been very helpful and
    curtious. When we had a broken neutral line between the pole and
    our house (didn't know if it was before or after the meter) they
    came out, found the problem, replaced the wire from the pole to
    the house,and surprisingly called back the next day to make sure
    everything was still working OK.

    Nick

    Chris,
    
    If no one wants the bricks and you cannot get rid of them,
    maybe we could work a deal.  I'll be getting a 30 yard dumpster
    in a few weeks.  You could bring them over and toss 'em in.
    
    
    Mark
    

    Chris,
    
    As for the Malone dump, I don't think they will take your bricks
    as a load.  A few at atime yes.
    
    As for Hudson Power And Light.  I had a problem last fall with my
    lights get bright then dim.  This was in the whole house.  I called
    the light dept. and they came out and replaced all the leadins from
    the pole.  A week later they called to see if the problem was
    corrected.  It was for about two weeks.  I called an electrician
    to see what they could find,  they found that the ground into the
    CB panel was just making contact.  He pulled more lead and re connected
    the ground.  That fixed it.  I have been in the house for 8 yrs.
    and lived with this.  The house was built in 1972.  So much for
    the building inspectors.
    
    tom
     

Some quick help with a big problem.

We have a five year old house half way down a hill.  Lots of rock about.
No cellar - slab construction.

As soon as we bought it, we found a lake in the living room (This was
Friday 19th December, 1986, see note 665).  Clearly it was coming *through*
the slab.  There were some shrinkage cracks around the edges, but they
weren't even wet.  Big puddle in the middle and by the brick hearth on the
outside wall at one end of the room.  Adjoining dinning room also very
damp, but not actually pooling.

So, we got in a few "experts", all of whom said that we needed french
drains.  So we sepnd ~$3000 on a 4' trench with perforated pipe round three
sides of the house, crushed rock, a dry well, backfilling, etc, etc.
I also caulked all the shrinkage cracks and put a couple of galons of
Thompson's water seal on the slab, before having the carpet reinstalled
over new foam padding.

So, everything is dandy until the big storm at the end of April.  More
water, but this time only around the fireplace, so far as I can tell.  (I
didn't take the fitted carpet up completely this time, since we have a
grand piano on it ...).  Looking closely, I could see the water seeping out
where the bricks of the hearth met the slab.  We also had water running down
inside the chimney, but since it is straight up to the sky, this isn't too
suprising.

So now I don't know if I have ground-water or chimney leaks.  We DO have a
cracked cap on top of the chimney, and a morter joint that has opened and
needs repointing.  But would that give us GALLONS of water at the base of
the chimney?  It was wet again after last Tuesday's snowstorm, when we had
8 inches of wet white stuff on the ground.

We have had a half dozen contractors look at this, and a couple of house
insepctors.  The drain men say drains, and the masons say bricks, and we
clearly need to caulk the cracks, but it seems like noone really KNOWS.

The town (Westford, MA) building inspector looked at it today.  He
hypothesises that we have water coming up INSIDE the foundations, and that
we need "weepers" in the foundation wall to let it out.  About 2 feet
underground.  He says connect the weepers to "schedule 40" pipe and lead it
away downhill.  What is a weeper?  A 6 inch diameter hole in the foundation
wall made with a *jackhammer*, heaven help us.  (Schedule 40 pipe is some
kind of metal pipe.)  Personally, I'm inclinde to let the weepers empty
into the french drains that are already right there.

Well, presumably this guy (whom my wife spoke with) knows his stuff, but I
am a little reluctant to take a jackhammer to my foundations.  However, if
this is going to be done, I want it done SOON, because we are about to have
landscaping work done ('cause of the the regrading and the drains), and
while they have a digger and crushed rock on site, it'll make sense to use
them.

(If I had a core drill handy, I might feel happier about that, but they
arn't two a penny...)

Do any of you noters have experience with "weepers", chimneys, etc?  Is
there any hope for us?

Singed, 

	Wet in Westford

	Or - We always wanted a pool, but not in the living room ...

    Sorry to hear about your problems... can't help too much there other
    than suggesting doing the cheap things first, re. repointing and
    caulking before more excavation etc...
    
    Re. Schedule 40 pipe, I believe the term refers to the strenght
    of the pipe in regards to crushing. For example the thick plastic
    pipe used for waste plumbing (in my house anyways) is Schedule 40
    where as the plastic drain pipe commonly used outside for drainage
    is probably Schedule 20. You should be able to find it marked on
    the side.
    
    If you have to install weep drains, I don't see why they couldn't drain
    into your recently installed french drains which are probably Schedule
    20 pipe.

    Charly
    

    
    Dear Wet,
    
    	Another suggestion.  Try getting ahold of some THOROSEAL from
    your local hardware store.  It is a product that comes in a powder
    form (like cement) usually in 40 or 60 pound bags.  It is mixed
    with water to a consistency of paint, and is then brushed on like
    paint to the foundation, or slab in your case.  It does a fantas-
    tic job of keeping water out.  I realize of course, that this may
    be hard for you to do since the slab is covered with carpeting or
    other flooring materials, but the cost of the materials is cheap
    and in the long run, the whole procedure MAY turn out to be less
    expensive than jackhammering the slab.
    	In my 'hardware store' days, I had a customer who had a similar
    problem to yours except on a full foundation, and the water was
    entering through the walls.  We talked him into applying the 
    thoroseal to his foundation walls.  He did and when the next
    bad storm came around he returned to the store.  The thoroseal
    worked so well on the walls that the water started entering through
    the floor.  We sold a few more bags of Thoroseal that day, and he
    never had troubles again.  It's good stuff.
    	If your problem IS with the slab, and not the chimney, you
    may want to look into this product.  Sometimes an easy remedy is
    overlooked by profit seeking contractors.
    
    	Good luck.
    	Jon

What color is Thoroseal?  It would have to go around the bottom row of
bricks of the hearth, and the morter joints.  Seems like I migt well put it
on the chimney too.

When I went to the hardware store, they sold me the Thompson's water seal.
Like most such products, it claims to work only when there is no
hydrostatic presure.  Of course, since the slab is above grade, if there
was no hydrostatic pressure there would be no water in the living room :-)

Thanks for the hints.

    	It comes in both white and gray.  Like anything else nowadays,
    the product that has the most advertising gets pushed the most,
    and Thompson's has done some heavy promoting.  Thompson's is great
    stuff when it's used for it's intended purpose (about the best you
    can get) which is, to be applied to an outside surface to keep water
    from GOING through.  Thoroseal is applied to an inside surface to
    keep water from COMING through (ie. hydrostatic pressure) which is 
    the problem your having.

    Re. Weep Drains
    
    A "Weep Drain" is used in a wall to allow accumlated water on one side
    to pass thru and relieve the hydrostatic pressure. Sometimes they are
    large pipes 3-4" in size, you see these in landscaping and outside
    retaining walls. Other times they may be small holes in the cement
    between bricks. 
    
    Due to the nature of the application, transfer water from one side
    of a wall to another, you generally won't see them in a foundation.
    Except if you had a severe pressure problem under a slab home, then
    they might be what you need. 
    
    Will weep drains solve the author's problem...? I don't know.

    Charly

I think that I've ruled out jackhammering the foundations.  Even if it DOES
fix the water problem, it will surely give me other, bigger problems.

I've had one other suggestion:  dig up part of the slab near the livingroom
wall (i.e., inside the house).  Dig down below the level of the bottom of
the foundation wall.  Put in crushed rock, and then patch the slab.
Essentially, one would be building a drywell under the living room.  If
there is indeed a spring under there, the water should then flow thru the
rock and into my french drains.

So my current plan is to fix the cracks on the chimney and waterproof the
bricks (for which Thompson's *does* seem to be the right sort of stuff).  If
I'm still wet, try the Thoroseal.  I'ld have to put it on the brick hearth,
and then do something to camouflage the color - like frame the bricks in wood
(held in place with glue, naturally).  And if that fails, the drywell.

The following alternative was also suggested:  

    Rotohammer a 1/2" hole in the slab in the center of the room, just in
    front of the hearth.  Fix in a length of copper pipe, and connect to a
    bird bath.  Call it a fountain, claim it adds $k to the value of the
    property, and move.

    After re-reading the base note and all of the replies, maybe the
    weep drains would help.
    
    If what the author suspects is true, water pressure under the floor
    in the living room, and that's not too unlikely being on the down
    side of a hill, you need to relieve that pressure. If you are willing
    to go to the trouble of digging up the inside of the house then
    an attempt at weep drains should be cheaper.
    
    If you have a four foot foudation wall in the probelm area, with
    your newly installed footing (french) drain there as well, give
    the weep drains a shot. Dig down 2-3 feet, rent a roto-hammer
    and chisel a 3-6" hole thru the foundation. If you find wet dirt
    on the other side of the wall, or even water, then your on the right
    track.
    
    Charly

    I second the suggestion of investigating the inside section of your
    foundation. The last house I had, had perimeter drains around the
    outside of the entire foundation. These are similar to your outside
    french drains, which work OK for water coming in from beyond your
    foundation/slab. But in my old house, and I bet in yours, the work
    which raises up under your slab may be trapped and the only way
    it can relieve its self is to work its way into your living room.
    The pressure from trapped water was so great in home that it sounded
    like birds singing in the cellar evry spring or heavy rain storm.
    The whistling was generated through small cement cracks in the floor,
    you had to hear it to believe it. I tolerated the problem for a
    because the basement was unfinished. In my new house I installed
    the perimeter drains on the outside and inside of the footing and
    haven't seen or heard anything yet. 
     It would seem logical to me, direct your efforts at relieving the
    internally created water pressure under your slab by poking a few
    holes into it and then draining off the water. Digging a couple
    of feet down along the outside slab section of your problem area,
    then drilling a few holes through the footing/frost wall may solve
    your problem. It's an inexpensive approach to a solution. I'd be
    weary/doubtful that any paint on product would have any lasting
    solution. Water pressure created from a rising water table can be
    substantial (remember my birds in the cellar) and sooner or later
    your water problem will be back. You must relieve that pressure
    buildup.
    
    I'd also suggest you check some other simple items that may be
    contributing to the overall problem:
    
    - make sure you have backfilled such that the ground is sloped away
    from your slab - get the surface water running away from your house
    
    - you said you live on a side of a hill, perhaps you can do alittle
    regrading to divert the drainage water coming off the hill to an
    area beyond your home
    
    - check to see of your gutter (if you have any) dump near your problem
    areas, if so redirect flow away from the house with buried drainage
    pipes or dump the gutter drains at the other end.
    
    Hope this helps!
    
    Bill D.
    

I thougt I'ld give .8 a diagram.  When we had the drains put in we also had
the area around the house regraded.  The end of the house with the wet
chimney faces North, and is sideways-on to the slope.  There are no
gutters, but the chimney wall is a gable end and is about the only side of
the house that does not get rainwater runoff.



                                                         /
           Chimney H                                   /
                   H/\                               /
                   H  \                           __/
                  /H   \                       __/
                 | H    |House              __/
    East <---    || |   |               ___/    Hill        ---> West
                 || |   |           ___/   
               -----------\___     /
             _/                \__/
           _/
         _/

  road  


It is indeed possible that there is a subterranean channel running from
higher up the hill to a point just under our fireplace.  But even if I
drill through the foundation wall, I may miss it.

I'm now inclined to rent a rotohammer and "have a go".  A couple of
questions?  How thick is my foundation wall likely to be? Six inches?  Eight
inches?  How may hours of rotohammering am I talking about?

And, obviously, where can I rent a heavy duty rotohammer in the
Lowel/Acton/Littleton/Nashua area?

    Still wet, but pleased to see the sun.

    Your foundation wall is probably 8 - 10" thick. You can rent the
    electric chipping hammer, AKA rotohammer, AKA Hilti-hammer at
    most rental stores. I recently rented one for about $32 for a half
    day. 
    
    You should be able to chip a 4-6" hole through the wall in about 15
    minutes. I does not have to be anthing neat, just a hole for water to
    escape and then run down the outside of the wall into your footing
    drains. 

    Your biggest problem will be digging a hole big enough for you to
    get down into so that you can comfortably use the chipping hammer.
    
    Charly

Well, I don't have more time to write big note but why not contact
Basement Waterproofing Nationwide/NH INC., person to contact Don 
Kelly 603 625 9309.

No, I don't get any commission. But if wish you can tell him my name.

I have read very fast your note and there reply.

PJ(Pravin)

    
    re:  .8
    
    Is it possible and safe to put a liner in a chimney that also hosts a
    furnace flu?  It seems to me that this could isolate the furnace
    from the fireplace sufficiently.  Just finding space for the liner
    next to the flu might be a problem - how small can a liner be? 
    Which type of liner would work best - tile, stainless steel, balloon?
    
    Finally, how else can you exhaust the furnace besides sacrificing
    at least one fireplace?  A beautiful anitique fireplace that doesn't
    work is extremely depressing to me.  
                                                                  
    /jct
    

re: < Note 4.10 by CURIE::TEGNELL >
>                  -< Fireplace & Furnace Sharing a Chimney? >-

    
What do you have currently?  Is there one existing flue in the current
chimney?  Is there a space for another flue?  I don't think you want to
go any smaller than 6" for a flue.  Also most codes prohibit wood and
any other solid fuel from being vented into the same chimney.

A picture would be worth many word...

-gary

    Been a while since this topic's been discussed.....
    
    I've got a chimney with 3 flues (believe each is a 8"x8" 
    square).  One of the end ones is for the wood stove, the
    other end one is closed off.  The middle one is for the fireplace.
    A couple of years ago I was getting water down the wood stove
    flue, so I got an el-cheapo cap for that single flue.  Now,
    the problem is in heavy rains or melting snow, the water falls
    off of the cap on the end into the fireplace flue, causing
    water down into the fireplace area.
    
    Question I have is this - do they make a cap to cover more than
    1 flue at a time?  To cover the 2 active ones would suffice,
    to cover all 3 would be best.  I'm going to call the chimney sweeps
    next month to clean the chimney, and will ask them, but was wondering
    if anyone knew of the existance of a multi-flue cap - or something
    to solve this problem.
    
    thanks,
    andy
    

    	I also have a triple flue chimney but it is capped with three
    pieces of slate offset from the top with bricks. see below.
    	This might be a bit too expensive for a quick fix. but thought
    I'd mention it.
    
    	While I'm here... does any one know how to remove this slate
    when it comes time for cleaning?
    
    
    		__________  ____________  ____________
    		|         ||            ||           |<-- 3 pieces of slate
    		----------  ------------  ------------
    	        **       ****          ****         **<----bricks
    		**       ****          ****         **
    	        +------------------------------------+
                |				     |<----chimney 
    
    
    				thanks...
    					...Dave
    

    I have recently seen a picture just like this!  It's either here
    or in KRYSTAL::STOVES.  Check that note out.
    
    Elaine
    

	I have the same dilema.  My old house has two inside chimneys with
  four flues each. Each flue ORIGINALLY had a fireplace.  Now only four still
  exist.  One fireplace has been "punched through" with a sheet metal flue for
  the Oil furnace.  Another has a sheet metal flue for a wood stove.

	I am seriously thinking of building a NEW external Chimney with two
  flues.  One for the Furnace and the other for the Gas hot water heater.
  Now I will have my ORIGINAL fireplaces back.  I am in the process of getting
  estimates for:
	1) rebuilding the two old chimneys
      or
	2) relining the two old chimneys

  The house is a two story hip-roofed colonial.  Anyone have any ideas what
  these estimates will come in at.....?

						-=Dennis

    
    I recently had a fireplace installed cost, me $2800. It was a new
    installation and the foundation was poured at the same time at the
    foundation for the addition. We had floor to ceiling bricks inside
    (std ceiling height) and only had to go one story up outside. A
    little higher outside to reach the necessary height above the nearest 
    roof line (garage). 
    
    The biggest cost is labor. The bricks are cheap, anywhere from .25
    ea and up. Regular "NEW" used brick was about .38 ea.  I think we
    used approx 1500-1700 brick (I'll check). Then add the fire brick
    for inside, flue, hearth blue stone, mmantel etc.
    
    This project did not include taking down an old chimney, which 
    would add to the cost.
                
    
    

	The estimate from Royal Chimney Sweeps came in as:

	$1000 to rebuild each chimney from the roof up
	$1200 for a stainless steel liner per flue...

	I found out that there are only three flues/per chimney and
	the are 6" X 24" in dimension.  A strange shape but common in old
	houses?  The poured liner is out because of the unusual size.

	We do not have enough clearance for an 8" pipe and therefore they
	do not recommend the chimneys for fireplace use.  What a shame!

	200 year original fireplaces that can't be used!

						-=Dennis

    This is a little late, but I thought that "our readers" might be
    interested in knowing what happedned in the end.
    
    We finally got hold of a mason who seemed to know what he was doing.
    One morning, when some other joib was delayed and he was at a loose
    end, he actually came and
    	(1) Fixed a "cold joint" in the chimney, which ran right the
    	    way around, about six courses from the top.

        (2) replaced the mortar "crown" on the top of the chimney, which
     	    was badly cracked
    
    	(3) Put a large slab of stone over the top of the chimney,
    	    supported on brick piers at the corners.  He said that this
    	    was much better than the metal caps, which cause the cresote
            to condense and run doen the outside of the chimney.
    
    After that, we 
    
    	(4) painted the outside of the chimney with Thompsons
            water seal-type stuff, and 
    
    	(5) silicone-caulked the cracks between the wood siding and
            the bricks of the chimney.
    
    
    Since then, we have had no more water.  (5) seemed to help most
    (and was the easiest and cheapest thing to do).  I'm even thinking
    about putting the fitted carpet back down (does anyone have a
    stretcher?) but am afraid to tempt fate.
    
    We DO still get a slight musty smell after rain.  Also, for several
    days after we have had a fire, we can smell what seems to be damp ash.
    Nothing in the fireplace is damp to the touch, however.  Also, we get
    some efflorescence on a few of the bricks, at waist hight, which says
    to me that they are getting wet and then drying out. 
    
    So, the situation is livable, although not perfect.  I think that
    I now believe that the moisture comes from above, not below, and
    I'm glad that I didn't take a jack-hammer to my foundations after
    all.
    

    I have squirrels in my chimney.  Well, I'm sure that I have at least
    one, ince we had an eye-ball to eye-ball confrontation this morning
    through the glass doors.
    
    I was reluctant totry and reach in to the fireplcae to catch the
    little bugger, since I was pretty confident of having him slip through
    my fingers and leave a trail of little black footprints all across
    the funrniture, curtains etc.  So I eventually persuaded him to
    climb back up the chimney, and I closed the damper.
    
    I'm guessing that the little blighters have something to do with
    the difficulty I had lighting a fire last night.  I may have a nest.
     What should I do?
    
    Eventually, I guess that I need to put a wire mesh over the top
    of the chimney. How do I fasten it?  I have a bluestone cap over
    the chimney-pot.  But before I do that, how do I make sure that
    the squirrels are outside?
    
    	Andrew
    

    	We had Racoons in our chimney once. The babies made a lot of
    noise. What was recommended to us was to drop a rag soaked in bleach
    down there. Ten minutes after doing so the mother peeked out of the
    top of the chimney to see if the coast was clear. Then one by one
    she brought about five babies out and hid them in the woods. 
    
    	We put a screen on the flue that had flanges that exerted outward
    pressure inside the flue that held it on. Just a little push and
    it was on for good. Then we reached up through the damper inside
    and pulled out the rag and we were done. It took about 20 minutes
    in all.
       

    
    I don't think you want to be reaching in to try to grab a squirrel
    unless you don't care about your fingers.
    
    .1 sounds reasonble.
    

A neat rick for those times that you have to catch a frightened 
rodent: get a tash can (the tall kitchen types are great) and set it 
near the place you plan to flush the little critter from with the mouth 
facing the spot you expect it to come from.  Don't shine any light into 
the trash can, you want it to be a large, inviting dark space.  When you 
flush the animal, it will see the large, dark hiding place, and make a 
beeline for it.  Just slam the lid on, and you have critter in a can, 
ready for whatever you had in mind.

I've done it with mice, chipmunks and squirrels.  Works like a charm.
(The cat likes to bring these things into the house for us to enjoy.) 

					>>>==>PStJTT

    note...... please be careful with squirrels they carry the
    disease ..... rabies..........

                                  
    jim.

    RE .1's solution
    
    We capped our chimney with topper that kept the elements and rodents
    out. Not a rodent showed up in the last year.
    
    /cal

    re:.5
    
    I can see how a ghost will keep rodents away, but, how does he keep
    out the elements?  ;^)
    
    
    
    I assume you meant copper?
    
    Alan

    For your further edification and ammusement:
    
    The evening after I submitted the base note, I had a good blaze
    going in the hearth.  It had actually been burning for a couple of
    hours.  I had just put another log on the fire, and the glass doors
    and wire screen were open.  
    
    Well, I'm sitting in my armchair reading, and I hear some scrapong
    sounds in the chimney, near the damper.  Before I have time to react,
    out pops our friend the squirrel, right through the flames.
    
    We shooed him out of the patio doors on the third attempt.
                                                                
    So, clearly smoke doesn't seem to wory him too much.  I'll try the
    bleach trick this weekend.  
    
    Maybe he like the centrally heated squirrel house, and will bring
    his friends?
    
    	Andrew
    
             

He came through the fire!?!?!  If the bleach doesn't work, call an 
exorcist.

I see no reason why you couldn't use your fireplaces providing they are
used only casually and the flues are in reasonable condition.  That 6"
dimension is a real killer as the smallest formers I know of are 5"
and you still need at least 3/4" of lining material around the former.
That means 5" plus 1 1/2" = 6 1/2" minimum dimension.
And there is only one product that I know of that meets the 3/4"
minimum specification.  That product is Solid-Flue (spelling?).

I suppose you could use duct-work, messy and difficult but possible.

Excellent points by previous noters regarding flowing creosote (carbon).
In a chimney fire the temperature of the burning creosote will exceed
(sitting down?) 2000 degrees F.  The standard clay tile that was and is
used to line chimneys was not intended to resist temperatures of that
range.  Only a properly poured lining, which IS designed to withstand
these temps, will provide chimney fire safety.  As noted previously
a poured lining fills all cracks and crevices (and pours out through
holes long since covered by walls and forgotten) and strengthens the
chimney structurally.

Incedentally, stainless steel liners are ok for some wood-burning
installations, but NEVER NEVER NEVER for coal burners!  A by-product
of combustion of coal is sulphur dioxide (we all know what that is, right?).
When sulphur dioxide combines with water guess what you have.  Would you
believe sulphuric acid?  Guess what that does to stainless.

	Tom_the_chimney_man

		  
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Had my Mass Save audit done today, among other things, they recommended the
installation of a Flue Damper.  This is a mechanical device that closes the
furnace flue when the furnace is closed.  He said it had to be installed by a
professional (building codes?), that it would cost about $75, and would pay
for itself in 2 years. 

That's his opinion, what do the rst of you think? (anyone had this done, etc? 

thanx	/j 

Wouldn't there be a risk of fire if the unit failed one day? 

    
    	Are you referring to the barometric damper?  I have such a strong
    draft through my chimney that my barometric damper is almost continual-
    ly open even when the furnace is off.  I'm sure this is one reason
    my cellar feels so cold, and I can feel alot of air flowing through
    the damper from the inside to the outside.  If this is what you
    are referring to then I would definately go with it.  I've got to
    look into a solution for this problem as well.
    

    first off, i'm a little surprised your second guessing the auditor.
    in my opinion they come with pretty high marks, unless something
    has changed. Don't get me wrong, i'm not here to pass along
    any unnecessary criticism's. 
    
    1st as for the suggestion of installing a flue damperm, he's
    correct.
    2nd. as for having a professional do it, He had no choice but
    to advise you this way. If he said "but you can do it yourself"
    he could have opened himself up to a law suit. Legally you can't
    do it yourself. You decide. A 2 year recovery is pretty dam good.
    
    I had the audit done several years ago, one thing they recommended
    was a set back thermostat, i bought a Honeywell unit, but was
    surprised that it cost $80.00 (not installed) The first year
    i saved $69.00 in fuel. Reason, if you try to manage the 
    thermostat manually, you have all the good intentions,
    but it doesn't take much forgetting to put a hole in that
    theory.
    
    He gave you some good advice, my advice is you follow it.
    
    Jim.

    
    	Are there any kind of dampers for dryer vents?  Even connected
    to my dryer, the hose itelf is very cold and the inside of the dryer
    (when not in use :-) is cold.  (Its gas, so no pointer is needed
    to the "indoor dryer venting" note.)
    
    	Is there anything that attaches to the outdoor vent and opens
    when there is "sufficient" difference in air pressure?
    
    							-c

Most dryer vents I've seen terminate in a spring-loaded (or 
gravity-loaded) flap.  Typically this piece is sold as part of the 
'dryer vent kits' that the hardware stores sell.  Should be able to 
pick one up at channel, slumbervill, grossmans, etc.  Basically, the 
air pressure from the dryer is sufficent to keep the normally-closed 
flap open.

    The flue damper opens up in the presence of heat. The professional
    installation requirement is to ensure that the furnace turns off
    if the damper doesn't open.
    
    You don't have to worry about a fire. If it doesn't open, the house
    will be full of the nasties that should go up the flue, and you
    would sleep through any fire/earthquake/flood.
    

    Those things are designed to "fail-safe", I believe; if they don't
    work they stay open (in theory....)
    Re: .1, no, they are not the same as a barometric damper.  These
    things close off the chimney flue completely, so no air can go up
    the chimney.  
    Is it worth it?  "Probably."
    

    Hello. Since no-one has hit the nail on the head, allow me!
    I've owned 2 of them and think it should be part of all heating
    systems (gas or oil-fired). .6 Says that they close off the chimney
    completely... that's true, which is all-important. Also true is
    that the device fails open. I installed both of mine and have to
    admit to leaving the heating plant in BETTER condition than I found
    it (one new system--new constr, one old system--23 yrs old). They
    cost about $150., and will definitely pay for themselves in some
    time frame. In my first house, the 23-yr.-old, I could stand on
    the roof near the chimney, and 'feel' heat rushing out of the pipe.
    It felt as if the palnt was firing--but it was just standby heat-loss.
    In the coldest part of the winter, when the northwest winds howl
    for days, (this was in Merrimack, NH) My plant's 275-gallon fuel
    tank would need a re-fill every 3 weeks!. The damper, in my case,
    extended the tanklife to 9 weeks!!!!. Simple math shows that this
    unit paid for itself within the first tank-full. This will be similar
    savings for anyone whose Barometric draft stays open on windy days.
    It means that you've got an air-infiltration problem if this occurs.
    (and your damper's draft is in calibration) If the draft  is out
    of cal., then excessive air-infiltration may not be a problem. You
    need some make-up air for the unit (heating plant) to fire properly,
    but in my case, there was simply too much. Remember that what air
    (or heat) goes up your chimney needs to be replaced by make-up air,
    and this is what comes in around your windows, doors, electrical
    boxes, pipe penetrations all over the house (sewer vent pipes are
    famous for this where they travel thru "plates" in different floors
    of your house) and just any cracks in the outer shell of the house.
     
    Anyhow, the more air infiltration you have, the more you have to
    gain by installing a flue damper. The unit interferes with the normal
    primary control circuits of your Oil Burner unit in such a way as
    to interlock the boiler from firing up when the damper's closed.
    the damper is spring loaded and must be shut electrically by a 28
    vac control circuit which can only supply the required voltage if
    the boileer isn't firing. The motor that closes the damper is a
    low-geared small motor like found in rotiserrie units for BBQ grills.
    The control unit has a programmed 3-minute delay after unit firing
    which allows the combustion chamber to purge with fresh air prior
    to closing the damper. This is necessary mainly because of the fact
    that fuel continues to spray into the chamber after oil-burner shut-off
    while the motor is spinning down and this fuel doesn't burn since
    the ignition transformer is shut down at this time. The resultant
    is a nearly explosive gas at high temperature in your combustion
    chamber. This must have a chance to purge! 
    
    One other thing to add about how much performance/fuel savings you
    can get is that your system may already have a built-in version
    of this device which works as an aperture on the air-inlet to the
    oil-burner, and opens and closes centrifugally, by the spin of the
    motor. This relatively inexpensive part keeps the heat in your
    boiler/furnace with a limited ability for make-up air to enter the
    unit during idle periods. Look for a longer payback period if you
    have one of these and also a relatively tight house. 
    
    In summary, if you close off a seven-or-so-inch hole which vents
    your heated air to the outdoors, you are going to save $$$$$$. 
    
    BTW, in case you are wondering, the skill levels needed to do this
    installation are comperable to a combination of being able to do
    automotive work (shocks, minor tune-ups, brakes, oil changes) and
    home electrical work (new lighting installs, receptacles, various
    home entertainment wiring..), and you mustn't be intimidated by
    soot-faced oil-burner men asking you what the thing could ever be
    used for. (The dudes that installed my heating system actually had
    never seen one of these before.. theyonly do 60-or so new contructions
    annually)
    
    Any Qs on availablilty ( don't you want one yet??? ) just send me
    VAXmail, as seen by the name above. (Sorry for the windage)
    

RE: -.1
Do you install them?  Do you get the same quick 'win' if you have gas 
heat (FHA or FHW)? and the biggie:  Is it worth it if you expect to
replace your furnace in 2-3 years 

    Re: .8
    
    I specialize in knowing my business, which is not any gas applications.
    
    I'd have to say that a gas person should be able to honestly answer
    that. (watch out for these guys, gas doesn't leave much soot!)
    
    Sears catalog lists these devices, and I have seen them at somerville
    lumber. I am not sure what savings they offer on a given unit, seeing
    that a gas unit with a pilot needs venting, though, I'd have to
    guess that they leave a little bit of the damper cut out, in order
    to maintain a constant draft, however small. 
    
    Again, the savings depend on YOUR level of air infiltration. If
    your flue pipe is always warm on an oil burning unit at a distance
    of 3-4 feet from the unit, chances are that you are losing heat
    up the chimney. On gas, you have a air-mix arrangement above the
    furnace that will always lower the apparent temp of that pipe, so
    that test would not be usable here. 
    
    Give the gas folks a call and let us all know how they responded.
    
    Mike

    
    
      Since the topic has started I'll enter my "Problem" here.
    Last night I opened up my cleanout to my chimney as I was in the
    process of cleaning it (wood/oil combo). I found a piece of flue
    liner approx 6" long by 2" wide. Is this a MAJOR problem? What/who
    do I contact to "repair" it?   
    
    
                            Thanks for any help.
    
    
                                  Mike

    re .16
    Losing part of your lining can be a problem.  Creosote is very potent
    and will quickly eat away a masonry chimney.  Chimneys can be relined,
    check the yellow pages. 

Does anyone know if it's possible to build a brick chimney that isn't
supported on the ground?

I'm thinking about putting a fireplace (zero-clearance) in my new bedroom but
the looks of a metal chimney just won't make it and I don't want wood either.
I was thinking I could run stove pipe and then surround it with real brick.
Since the actual brick part would only be around 6-8 feet high (I haven't 
actually bothered to measure it) it wouldn't weigh THAT much and it would sit
on a roof framed with 2X12's.

Another possibility I also thought of was maybe to use some kind of fake brick
but I don't know how well that would handle the weather.

What you're looking at below is a jog in the second floor (a common practice on
a lot of colonials).  The back roof-lines match and the front roof is recessed
around 8-feet back.  The chimney would sit on the smaller roof.


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-mark

    An approximate weight estimate for a 6' to 8' chiminey 16" outside
    (8" inches inside) would range from 1000 lbs (6' assuming 125 lbs/cu
    ft density for brick) to 1600 lbs (8' assuming 150 lbs/cu ft density
    for brick)  This is for brick and mortar.  I have made no estimate
    for a clay liner, etc.  As I haven't weighed any bricks lately, this 
    is a ball park estimate.  I am not sure you want to add a point load 
    of 1000-1600 lbs to a roof not structurally designed for it.
    
    Stan

>                         As I haven't weighed any bricks lately, this 
>    is a ball park estimate.  

You know your ball parks... The Wiley Engineer's Desk Reference (no 
relation to the coyote, I hope.) lists the nominal weight of bricks 
as 100-150 lbs per cubic foot and hard mortar as 103 lbs per cubic foot.

					>>>==>PStJTT

    Well, I confess, I did get a Civil Engineering degree and still
    remember some densities roughly.
    
    Stan (BSCE, MSOE) (OE => Ocean Engineering)

    
    I would check with the local firedepartment. What you are doing
    I'm sure does not meet any firecode.
    
    Mike

I didn't realize brick weigher THAT much.  Oh well, it was just a thought. 
Thanks for the feedback.

As far as the firecode, I'd be suprised if that was a problem since lots of
houses have wooden chimneys.  I was simply going to go one better and face it 
with brick.

-mark

    	One of my neighbors built a wooden box around his chimney and
    faced it with 1/2"-thick brick. It almost looks real if you use the 
    right type of brick.
    
    
    Glenn

	I would like some recommendations on upgrading my chimney. I have
   scoured all the books but my problem is not mentioned. 

	I would like to take my old block chimney down below the roof into
   the actic. Then start up again with red brick. I know this can be done
   since I have seen new ones do just this. 

	any suggestions ? techniques etc would be helpful. 

	Is there a special last block to buy BEFORE starting the red brick.

	I have been trying to picture this first layer of brick resting on
   the block, but it would seem too unstable. The old chimney is about 30
   years young, and now supports an oil burner and lp gas water heater.
   And it also has a liner. 

	Thanks in advance to all.

	al

    ? I don't see why you think brick on block would be unstable.  The
    chimney blocks are solid concrete, assuming you have what I think
    you have.  Just start laying up the bricks.  By the way, the tile
    flue liner should be free-floating; it should *NOT* be mortared
    into place.  It has to be free to expand and contract with heat
    and cold, or it will crack.  You can fill the space between the
    liner and the concrete or brick with Vermiculite, to hold the liner
    steady, if you need to.

    Be careful about using Vermiculite, it is not legal in some towns.
    The alternative is to use a product called Thermix which is vermiculite
    bound with an adhesive.  The reason for straight Vermiculite not
    being up to code is due to fire codes.  It seems that if a flue
    tile cracks and falls, the vermiculite can pour down the chimney,
    blocking it and causing the smoke to enter the house.
    
    Dan

    What is this caused by?
    Yesterday, I looked up at my chimney from outside my house and saw
    smoke coming from between the flashing and the shingles around the
    chimney.  I had my woodstove going.
    I thought that seemed strange since usually the smoke comes out
    from the top of the chimney.
    So I went up in my attic, and there was smoke pouring out from
    between 2 cinder blocks which enclose the flue.
    One of the blocks was cracked.  The blocks above the crack were
    very warm.
    My guess is that the chimney liner cracked, and smoke got
    to the cinderblocks, heated it up, and cracked one of them.
    
    Is this going to require tearing down the chimney to the point
    of the crack?

    I don't know if it requires a complete rebuild, but you have 1 hell
    of a fire hazard existing! I would suggest repairs asap or at least
    stop using the wood stove.
    
    Eric-watched a neighbor's house roast that way
    

    .1 is right - under no circumstances use that wood stove again
    until the problem is corrected. Fortunately, we're past the main
    heating season for woodstoves.
    
    The problem might have been caused by a small chimney fire -
    do you use the "run it real hot occasionally to burn out any
    buildup" technique of chimney maintenance?
    
    In any event, you've definitely got a cracked flue, and if you
    were to have a chimney fire, you can view your roof rafters as
    readily available kindling...
    
    Not to mention the fact that as wood is heated over time, its
    flash point decreases. The crack in the flue means more heat
    escapes the flue to warm the cinderblocks; the crack in the
    cinderblocks means the adjacent wood is being heated, and if
    it's heated enough, it dries out more, its flash point decreases,
    and it takes less of a spark to get it to ignite.

>        My guess is that the chimney liner cracked, and smoke got
>    to the cinderblocks, heated it up, and cracked one of them.

    Do you think I can get insurance money for this?  Assuming it
    was caused by a small chimney fire (I'm sure it was) then
    it's fire damage.
    Any experience with anything like this?
    

    
    I had my chimney re-lined courtesy of homeowners insurance... 
    probably depends on your company and/or policy.
    
    

    RE: .4
    
    What were the circumstances?  Did you actually have a fire?
    
    Phil

    I have a similar problem and am fighting Metpay about this right
    now.  We also have a block chimney that has a crack running from
    the point where the stove pipe comes out of the house up to the top
    of the chimney.  We had a small chimney fire late last year.  Metpay
    is trying to say that it is a structural problem.  My argument against
    that is why did it take five years to come about?  It seems awful
    strange that the crack developed right after the chimney fire.
    
    They have sent out 3 adjusters.  The first guy came out and said,
    "I don't know why they sent me out here, I only look at cars!"
    I complained about this and they sent someone else out, who in turn
    said that it was structural.  Once again, I complained and asked
    to have a supervisor come out.  He came and concluded that it was
    structural, but he would be willing to have a builder come with
    him next time in an effort to prove this to me.
    
    The mason who built the chimney has said there is no way it is a
    structural problem.  I am still awaiting their verdict.
    
    Needless to say, do not use the chimney until it is fixed.

    					Steve

    Steve,
    Call Lisa Kane the Digital Corp. Personel leison. She has a direct
    line to Metpay. I got a problem solved quickly thru her.
    dtn 251-1232
    
    Jim

>                            -< Metpay is giving us trouble >-

>    I have a similar problem and am fighting Metpay about this right
>    now.  

    OK. Well, I'm about to call Metpay to claim the exact same thing.
    I'll know what to expect.  I'll let you know what happens.
    

>        RE: .4
>    
>    What were the circumstances?  Did you actually have a fire?
    

    Well..... I thought I heard a fire in there.... (external chimney
    built from chimney blocks with tile liner).  I called my agent 
    to ask about coverage, and they said "yes, you're covered", and
    sent an adjuster out... the adjuster looked at the chimney from
    the driveway, and somehow decided that we WERE entitled to have
    it re-lined at their expense.  My only mistake was that I went with
    the stainless steel liner inside the blocks, and the space between
    the liner and the blocks filled with vermiculite....  Having now
    spent two seasons with this arrangement, I'm sorry I didn't have
    it done with insulcrete... especially since it was at the expense
    of insurance.....
    
    
    

    You can usually hear a chimmney fire as they build a tremendous
    draft in just a few seconds. I once put one once and I could hear
    it over the firetruck engines when we pulled up. Water is not used
    either dry chem or co2 is discharged into the fire box and is drawn
    up the chimmney works real good too. BTW- The stack on top of the
    house looked like a fountain cone on the 4th of july.
    
    -j

    
    RE: Metnopay

    Good luck!  They don't pay money as easily as they take it out of
    your check.  Of course the crack is structural!  But what was their
    explanation for the CAUSE of the crack?  Did they say your basement
    floor is sagging (dig under it and install lally columns ;-)) or that
    a very large pigeon landed on the top???
    
    Maybe you can get a statement from the fire chief about the fire.
    
    Phil

>                               -< Typical Metpay BS... >-
>    Of course the crack is structural!  
    
    The appraiser is supposed to call today or monday.
    Ok, I'll assume he's going to say it's structural.  Isn't there
    some office you can go to that handles complaints about insurance
    companies not paying?
    
    If my house burns down I will also have structural problems.  Will
    they pay then?

    One more vote: Don't try the bricks supported by the roof trick.
    
    The fool that built our house "forgot" to put footings under the
    family room chimney.  Now, this is buggert than yours, since it
    goes up two floors and through the roof, matbe  20 feet in all.
    But it was sitting on a concrete slab with compacted (well, maybe)
    fill beneath.
    
    Suffice it to say, the slab cracked, the interior walls sank, and
    the whole lot - chimney, slab, walls, bathroom - had to be torn
    out and started over.
    
    Why is there never time to do it right ...
    
    	Andrew
    

    I had a similar situation: chimney fire -> cracks in the chimney
    My approach was to call out a chimney sweep who could tell immediately
    that there had been a fire; the creosote looks much different
    afterwards. He wrote up a statement saying that 1) there had been
    a fire. 2) The fire caused the cracks in the chimney. 3) The cracks
    could cause the house to burn down.  And an estimate of the cost
    of relining the chimney.
    I took this to my insurance agent who had no problem with it.
    
    I think the important points are: providing evidence that a FIRE
    (which is covered) caused the damage, providing evidence that the
    damage occurred during the coverage of your policy, and pointing
    out that a chimney is a hell of a lot cheaper to replace than a
    whole house!!
    
    Since I have a wood stove, the relining consisted of running a piece
    of insulated stovepipe down the length of the chimney and hooking
    it up to the stove rather than letting the stove just dump into
    the chimney.  That way no stonework was required, and there was
    minimal disruption of my life.  Also this makes a woodstove
    considerably more efficient.  Total cost was around $600.
    
    Kevin

    I wanted to update the problem that was described in reply #6. 
    Got a call this morning from the Metpay supervisor that was handling
    our case and it seems they've had a change in heart!  They've agreed
    to compensate us for the chimney.  Even though it took 108 days
    to settle this, I'm still relieved.
    
    I'd like to thank Jim for suggesting to call Lisa Kane (although
    as it turned out it wasn't necessary).

    					Steve

    Did a search of Chimney and brick; no such note so here is at least
    one.
    
    The top of the chimney is capped with a layer of cement which is
    starting to crack. My question is what can I use to "chink" up the
    cracks? I have heard there's a silicon caulk that looks like cement
    in texture and colour.
    
    cal

    Silicone caulk would probably work well...and on top of the chimney,
    who cares what it looks like?  Nobody will ever see it.

    
     MY father has the same problem with his chimney.He has a cinder
    block with cement coating.None of the cauking compounds worked
    that well.The best was a silcone compound made for mason work.
     
    				Wayne

    I thought I would use this note as a spring board for a somewhat
    related problem.
    
    We have a chimney that leaks.  All efforts to stop the leaks have
    failed.  An example of the leak is a slow drip...drip in the woodbox
    and the fire box during heavy and prolonged rain.  There is no (in 
    theory) direct connection between the woodbox and the outside or the 
    woodbox and the flue.  In addition, during heavy and prolonged rains 
    the cinderblock base of the chimney becomes wet from leaking water.  
    The sills (even I know this is NOT good) near the base of the chimney 
    get damp.  This has happened on both sides of the chimney.  The roof 
    is slanted so that the water from the roof pours on the chimney.  The 
    chimney has a nice fuzz of green moss on it.  Of the 7 houses in
    our immediate are constructed by this builder, at least 2 others
    have these same problems (here is a chance for you to help me and
    all my neighbors!).
    
    So far I have used silicone caulk in an attempt to stop the leak(s).
    I have found a few cracks that I have closed.  I have run the silicone
    caulk down the 'V' between the house siding and the chimney stack.
    These efforts have seemingly slowed and reduced the leaks.
    
    I have talked to the original mason and found out the following:
    
    	1) The builder was a cheap SOB (there is other evidence of this
    	   fact) and used cheap brick.  The brick used is porous and
    	   the leaks are caused by the brick absorbing the water and
    	   allowing it to pass inside.
    
    	2) The chimney was built in January.  Antifreeze was added to
    	   the mortar and a plastic enclosure was made in an attempt
    	   to get the mortar to set properly.
    
    The mason made the following suggetions:
    
    	1) Gutter to prevent the water from running on the chimney from
    	   the roof.  (this will be done)
    
    	2) Clean (moss removal) and seal the whole blasted chimney with
    	   a masonary sealer.
    
    I have several quetions for the DIYers:
    
    	1) Do you believe the mason about the bricks being porous enough
    	   to pass the water?  In other words, will his approach cure
    	   my problem?  These bricks are naturally the ones with 3 holes
    	   in the middle.
    
    	2) Is the chimney itself sound given the conditions under which
    	   it was constructed?  Should I sue the pants off the builder?
    	   I seriously consider doing this once a year when I find some
    	   screw-up.  The screw-ups are adding up and I may do this
    	   at some point anyway.
    
    	3) Any other suggestions the DIYers may have will be appreciated.
    
    Thanks,
    Stan

    Yes, there are really cheap (soft) bricks that might be porous
    enough to absorb water; if you have them, they will probably
    disintegrate in a few years from the freezing of water in them.
    A good masonary sealer would help postpone that, and also (maybe)
    help your leak problem. At any rate, putting on a coat of masonary
    sealer is a pretty cheap thing to try, and probably worth doing.
    
    It's not clear to me how you can put up a gutter to stop the rain
    pouring onto the chimney; is the chimney somehow under the runoff
    from the roof???
    I assume you have something like this (abysmal graphics coming up):
    
    		^     _____	and you get leakage at point X where
    	       / \    |   |	the water runs down the roof and gets
              /   \   |   |	backed up behind the chimney.  If
    	     /     \  |   |	that's the case,you can build what is
    	    /       \X|   |	called a "cricket", which is sort of
    	   /         \|   |	a miniature little gable roof between
	  |	      |   |	the main roof and the chimney, at 90
    	  |	      |   |	degrees to the main roof.  It would
    				fit in at point X and divert the water
    				to the sides, out around the chimney.
    You'd have to shingle it and flash it into the chimney and the
    main roof.  Does that description make any sense to you?

    I agree that your brick is possibly soaking up water. Sealing your
    bricks may solve the problem all together. This can be easily and
    inexpensively done by yourself. Pick up a a high quality masonry
    sealer at a masonry supply store and just spray or brush it on.
    Make sure the product you choose does not effect the glass on any
    adjacent windows, Some masonry sealer, if splashed on your windows,
    can be very difficult to remove.

    Thanks guys.  I was trying to get a sanity check here.  I thought
    the mason was probably right.  I do have a cricket.  The builder
    and I have checked it and it is probably OK.  Steve, your abysmal
    graphics were correct.  More abysmal graphics coming up! From the
    side it looks like:
    
    				_______
    				|     |
    	------------------------|     |--------------------------
    	|			|     |                         |
    	|			|     |		Roof		|
    	|			|     |				|
    	|			|     |				|
	|			|     |				|
    	|			|     |				|
    	|			|     |				|
    	|			|     |				|
    	|			|     |				|
    	|_______________________|     |_________________________|
    	 |			|     |				|
    	 |		________|     |________			|
    	 |		|	|     |       |	  <slanted	|
    	 |		|	|     |       |   bluestone	|
    	 |		|_______|     |_______|			|
    	 |		|		      |			|
    	 |		|		      |			|
    	 |		|		      |			|
    	 |		|		      |			|
    	 |		|		      |			|
    	 |______________|_____________________|_________________|
    
    So the rain runs off the roof down the slanted bluestone (over some
    silcone sealed joints at the end of the bluestone :-) and down the
    body of the chimney.
    
    Stan

    	re .6
    
    	Gutters should take care of 99% of your problem. I have a simaler
    setup on my house except without the slanted bluestone area, (tripple
    chimney instead) and I get some seapage between the house and chimney
    where the water runs down the left/right sides. If/when I put up
    gutters the only water I should be getting there is the normaly
    amount the falls from the sky and not the additional 10x running
    off the roof. Even if your cheap or can't afford full gutters just
    putting up some gutter sections to divert the water so it does not
    hit the slanted bluestone cap should do the trick.
    
    		Hope this helps...
    
    	...Dave
    

    Try painting on a clear coat of thompson,s water seal over the bricks.
    This most likely will work as I have done it myself. Bricks do absorb
    water that is why masons soak bricks before laying them so the mortar
    doesn't cure too rapidly.

    In February we were still getting the musty smell.  We figuredf
    that it had to be coming from the brick.
    
    Working from tthe inside, I:
    
    	 rolled back the rug, 
    	 removed the previously soaked tack strip again,       
         filled the nail holes with silicon caulk, 
         wire brushed the brick, and 
         gave the whole dam thing two coats of Thompsons water seal.
    
    Since then, no more smell.
    
    	Andrew 
    

    See note 1107, parlicularly .last and .last-1, for what we did to
    our chimney.
    
    	Andrew
    

    I ended up with a CLEAR siliconized calk that can be painted. I
    tried a mortar calk and the grey color was a lot darker then the
    cement mortar. The clear hardly showed for the 1/16" crack.
    
    cal hoe

    I noticed a couple of bricks that were cracked in the firebox section
    of my chimney.  Once I started knocking out cracked bricks, it turned
    into about 20 - 25 bricks that had to be replaced.
    
    Being a fairly new homeowner, I've never done any work with bricks
    before.  Is this something I should do myself??  If yes, can anybody
    recommend a good book or source of information.  If no, can anybody
    recommend a good contractor in the Manchester, NH area.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Doug

    
    
    DOES ANYONE KNOW WHERE I CAN BUY A CHIMNEY CAP ????  THE DIMENSIONS
    OF MINE ARE 10 1/4" X  6 1/2".  DO THEY COME IN ADJUSTABLE SIZES
    OR DO YOU HAVE TO BUY EXACT MEASUREMENTS ???  I LIVE IN THE MASON
    AND NASHUA N.H. AREAS.
    
    THANKS
    DON
    WOODRO::DHOULE
    

    If you live in the MASON area, you should have no trouble finding
    a chimney cap (snark! smirk!).
    
    Seriously: Corriveau-Routhier in Nashua, if you can't find one at
    the usual building supply centers.
    
    pbm
    

    
    Channel Lumber had them on sale this week.
    

    The Stove barn on 101A in Amherst has then also. And the one's I
    saw were adjustable.  Be advised they are not cheap!!!!
    
    Don
    

    A couple others...
    
    	Ames Dept. Store (surprised?) 
    	County Stores (in Milford, NH)
    
    Brian

    Our chimney is built on top of a concrete pad that is a couple of
    inches wider than the chimney, leaving a lip.  From the side, this
    looks like: 
    
    
    		House     | Chimney  |
    			  |	     |
    			  |	     |
    			  |	     |
    			  |	     |
    			__|__________!__ <- lip
    			  	        |
    		  Foundation and pad	|
    			  	        |
    
    Our building inspector (John Cornell) suggested will fill the lip
    at an angle, to prevent water from collecting and eventually damaging
    the chimney.  He suggested that we might even be able to find
    triangular bricks, ready made for that purpose.
    
    We've checked the large masonry supplies place in downtown Nashua,
    and they said that such an item would have to be special ordered,
    in large quantities.  So, does anyone know whether such a brick
    can be found, and if so, where?
    
    If we can't use that idea, then what's the best way to fill this lip.
    Should we try cutting brick to fit (possibly the most elegant, but also
    the most labor intensive solution)?  Should we get some thin
    rectangular bricks, and install them at an angle with a large quantity
    of mortar underneath?  Or should we just fill the lip with cement
    or mortar, and if so, exactly what type of compound should we use?
    (The last is clearly the easiest solution, but also the least elegant.)
    
       Gary 

    	My fireplace/chimney was made the same way. The mason took
    	mortar and filled it in on an angle. It came out vey good
    	but, it has cracked and is needed to be done again. 
    
    	ps. its also 9 years old.
    		dave

    Mine was the same way.  I just filled it with mortar.  This was
    3 years ago and noone notices (including myself) how inelegant it
    is.

    You could always rent a masonary saw (the kind that has the water-
    cooled blade) and cut the bricks yourself.  I've never used one, 
    but I gather that they cut quite rapidly and it shouldn't take
    too long to cut enough brick to do what you want to do.
    
    However, I wouldn't bother; I'd just fill the angle with mortar.
    As .2 says, you'll never notice and neither will anybody else.

I know this is unrelated, but I couldn't find  a good note to post this as
a reply.  I will be building a hearth later this week for my wood stove, and
I plan to use quarry tile for the floor part of the hearth.  My question is
what would be a better material to fill in around the tiles for a finished look,
grout or mortor??  Is one easier to clean than the other, the reason I ask is 
because I have never used grout, so I don't know what it is like to work with.

Brad.

    RE: .0, .3...
    
    The masonry (sp) saw is the best idea for the "elegant" look, however;
    you may not want to spend that much time on the sawing if you want
    a fast job.  The saw cuts fast but it takes a few bricks to get
    used to the action on the saw.  Also, use the pre-formed side to
    face out from the wall so that the sides are all uniform.  When
    you cut brick, sometimes it chips and leaves some holes, and if
    they are on the back side, you can fill them with mortar/grout and
    no one will know the difference.  
    
    Good luck!
    
    Patrick

    We had a chimneysweep out today to inspect the chimney in our new
    (to us) house.  He suggested putting a cap on the chimney to prevent
    deterioration of the flue and to keep raccoons out.  His price was
    $250 for capping the chimney and doing some minor mortar repair
    (he said it didn't need pointing, some silicone would do the job).

    Is this price reasonable?  Yeah, I know, get some other quotes.
    Don't suggest DIY, I'm not fond of heights.

    Re .12
    
    Sounds a bit high.  Prevent deterioration of a (clay liner) flue?
    What's to deteriorate?  When's the last time you had a raccoon in
    your chimney?
    
    A cap would be a good idea if you live in a wooded area and use
    a woodstove; it will prevent sparks from flying out of the flue.
    If it's your normal furnace flue, a cap won't add any value.
    
    Somewhere in this file there are comments on chimney sweeps and
    chimney repair specialists.  Check the keywords.            
    
    Yes, get another quote.
    
    pbm
    
    
    

SEE Note 2017.16                         

I had a chimney cap installed and re-pointed some masonry damage to
my chimney as well as had the chimney sweep chisel out a floor
to ceiling crack in my foundation while he was there.

I think it cost something like $120 total.  We picked out
the chimney cap from a book he had (~ $45). and the rest was
labor and $10 for re-pointing materials.  This was last April but it
should give you an idea of prices.  Course I don't know
your chimney - does it have more then one flue?, need a special
type of cap?

I would find out how much of your quote is for the cap and how
much is labor.  Can't be much more than 5 minutes labor putting
on the type of cap we bought.  

-JFK-

    
    That's out of line!  
    

    We probably won't cap the chimney (at least for now, and certainly
    not for $250).

    According to the sweep who inspected, there was some deterioration
    of the flue lining near the top (the house is 54 years old).
    The previous owners didn't use the fireplace, but we intend to
    (for atmosphere, not for heating).

    We do have very aggressive raccoons in the area, and a friend of
    a friend (elsewhere) had to have a wall ripped apart to get
    a nest out of his chimney, so it's not unheard of.  I even noticed
    an ad in the yellow pages under "Chimneysweeps" that said "Raccoons
    removed."  But I assume we can smoke 'em out if they decide to live
    there.

    Some friends of mine had their flue sealed by the contractor/installed
    putting a large tube/balloon down the chimney and pumping mortar in
    around it. This left an oval flue (which they claimed to have better
    draft - no dead air in corners) and strengthened the chimney top to
    bottom. They found out about this at a home show and it was all done
    from the roof and basement (the only outlets that existed).
    
    There's probably more info on this process elsewhere in the file (I
    just haven't gone looking for it myself).
    

Just had New England Chimney Sweeps (located in Fitchburg) out to clean
and inspect ours. I asked him about a cap at the request of the wife
(who had listened to one bird too many thrash about on the fireplace
smokeshelf). 

He quoted me $45 for the black or $65 for the stainless cap plus $20 
for labor (I don't do work off the ground unless it's an emergency, $20 
is NOT an emergency). FWIW, the flue is 12" X 12".

On the other hand, our chimney needs no repair/repointing.

Chuck

    Similarly, I have had to get one too many birds out of the wood
    stove, so asked the chimney sweep about  a new screened flue cap..
    he said $35 plus $10 to install IF he was already out to clean
    the chimney anyway...
    so, i would think you could get the repointing, cap etal done
    for MUCH less than the $250 you were quoted!
    

    Re/ .16:
    
    Racoons definitely do get into chimneys.  I had a least one big one in
    mine this past summer.  Among the suggestions I got were:
    
     -	drop a Clorox-soaked rag down the chimney.  (This was suggested
    	somewhere in this notes file, I believe.)
    
     -	put a radio in the fireplace and play loud rock music.
    
    I wouldn't suggest smoking them out, or even opening the flue while
    they're in there.  Mine finally left by him (her?) self.

    I've checked keywords all over the place, but I couldn't find this
    discussed anywhere....forgive me if its a duplication.
    
    I'm considering adding a fireplace onto the living room of our new
    Cape.  Has anyone out there done this or considered it and upon
    investigation decided against it?  I want to get a better understanding
    of what I'm really talking about when I say I want to do this....
    
    The few things I know already are:
    * It would be on the outside wall and it would require movement
      of the radiator running the length (24') of that wall
    * The floor layout is not typical cape - the L.R. runs front to
       back.  Where there would traditionally be a wall dividing the
       space in half, there appears to be a supporting beam instead.
       Could a fireplace be an interference to this support system?  
    * The tax assessor in town has already told me it will add $2100 
      onto his estimate of the value of the house, (I consider this 
      both a pro and a con).  
    
    Where would I find a reputable person to do the work (I've checked 
    ads and yellow pages under construction, etc - no one mentions this 
    skill specifically)  Are there any cons other than the expense that 
    I should be considering?  How much might the cost be (aside from
    the arm and a leg the plumber will undoubtedly want to charge for
    moving that radiator)?                                          
    
    Your inputs will be appreciated.....
    
    Tamison

See note 817 for a discussion about how to insulate an exterior chimney.

See note 2017 for recommendations for masons.

Paul

>   Where would I find a reputable person to do the work (I've checked 
>   ads and yellow pages under construction, etc - no one mentions this 
>   skill specifically)
    You would look for Masons for the chimney work (I can recommend one,
but the farthest south he comes is Nashua, NH).
    The $2100 added value sounds low to me, or, rather, I *think* it'll cost
more than that just to build the chimney, assuming it'll be at least 20' high
or so.
    Knocking a hole in the wall sounds like a great DIY job!  Gimme a sledge!
Oh, yeah, assuming you get some expert's OK regarding the load-bearing thingies.

    
    I too, think it will cost more than the 2100...like two to three
    times more!  depending of course on the type of stone/brick,
    mantel work, and whether its floor-to-ceiling, etc...
    I had a full brick fireplace quoted at $5k last year, so I went
    with an insert instead--$900 plus labor (maybe $500???)
    Don't know about your other issues...
    
    

    re: .2, .3
    
    The base noter said that the value of the house would increase by
    $2100, not that it would cost $2100.  There are very few home
    improvements that increase the value of the home by an amount even
    approaching the cost, and some that actually decrease the value
    (such as painting it fluorescent orange).
    
    Clay

>        The base noter said that the value of the house would increase by
>    $2100, not that it would cost $2100.  
    
    No he didn't.
    He said the tax assessment would increase by $2100.  
    
    Although there are several "home improvements" you can do that will
    actually decrease the value of your home, there aren't many that
    will decrease the assessment.  

    For example, it's possible that adding a swimming pool will decrease
    the value (the amount you can get if you sell your house), but it
    will always increase the tax assessment.

    This is a good topic.  I am considering the same thing - adding
    a fireplace to my older colonial.  If you would, please keep up
    posted about your progress, pitfalls found, costs, etc.  This will
    be helpful to myself and probably others.
    
    As for the cost.  The base noter did say that the assessment would
    increase, not the value of the house or that it would cost that
    much.  It would be worth $5K to me to have a NICE fireplace.  For
    that, I would want to make sure it was as nice as I could.  Somehow
    a wood stove doesn't seem as nice.
    
    By the way, what is an insert.  I thought they went into EXISTING
    fireplaces.  Do they have some that are standalone also?
    
    Ed..
    

    I didn't want to reply tothis topic but I'm so frustrated with my
    fireplace I can't bite my toungue.
    
    All my life I wanted a fireplace in my house.  Now that I have one
    it's a royal pain.  It adds negative heat value.  The room you're
    in is radiantly warm but every other room suffers.  That's where
    the air comes from to feed the fire.  Where does that come from?
    All the little holes in the walls - thus very high air infiltration.
    Now my house was built in '68.  They weren't too concerned about
    heat back then.
    
    So my lesson for today is make sure the draft for the fireplace
    comes from outside.  The venting wraps around the firebox so that
    it's preheated when it reaches the fire.  Plan on using an insert
    or a wood stove with a glass/screen door so that you get a fire
    effect.
    
    On second thought, since you're building a new fireplace, you build
    it like you do an airtight stove.  Tight insulated doors, air from
    outside, well fitting damper.  I've got to 'fix' mine.  The easiest
    way is to go the wood stove route.

    re: insert...
    
    I suppose I should have said "zero clearance" fireplace...which
    I think is what they are technically called.  Typically the kind
    of thing they put in a condo, where it doesnt have to be on an 
    outside wall, isn't as heavy, etc.  They usually have gray
    interiors (brick look) with black steel-like exterior, and
    glass doors.  once the mantel is installed it looks much like
    a standard fireplace...except of course its not real brick....
    
    well, anyway it was just a thought...but I agree that if one
    has the money to "do it right" a full masonry fireplace vented
    from the outside with appropriate circulating fans, full mantel,
    etc is the way to go. !! 
    

The advantage of an insert is that you will not suck air from all corners of
your house...(see earlier reply)...

The air for cumbustion comes from outside, and the air from the room 
circulates around the outside of the firebox...THE ROOM AIR, AND THE FIRE,
NEVER MIX.

Crude drawing follows...

   ________________
      <  <   <  <  \
   ______________  |       The air in the chamber can move passivly, via 
                | ^|       convection, or can be moved activly, via a fan.
                |  |       I recommend the fan.
                | ^|
     fire box   |  |  <---  Enclosure
                | ^|
                |  |       The firebox is connected to the chimney, and an
   _____________| ^|       outside air intake, and has tight fitting glass
     >   >   >  >  |       doors on the front.   With the doors closed, all
   ________________/       of the air for cumbustion comes from outside.


The biggest mistake people seem to make with these systems is to leave the 
doors open while the fire is burning.  While this does seem to generate
more heat (its warm in front of the fireplace!)... it actually is very
inefficient, sucking all of the heat from the rest of the house, and blowing
it up the chimney.

Hope this helps...

Bob_who_made_fires_for_3_months_with_the_doors_open_before_someone_explained
_this_to_me!  8^)

In .18 I was mistaken on the cost of a cap (I just got my bill 
yesterday).

>He quoted me $45 for the black or $65 for the stainless cap plus $20 
>for labor 

The black one was $25 and the stanless steel was $45. Installation was 
$20. This for a 13" by 13" flue.

Chuck

     Fireplaces (that draw air from the room) are energy efficient above
about 20F and inefficient below about 20F.  

     If you don't want the rest of the house to get cold, open a window in 
the fireplaced room a little.  If you don't like that, then open the 
door to the basement stairs.

     In my case, with an established, hot fire, the living room will warm
up with the window open and the outside temperature above 15F.  The rest 
of the house stays warm.

    Thanks to .6 - I didn't know what an insert was, either
    and to .7 - because your response is exactly what I'm looking for.
    Any time I think of a project I _think_ I want to do, I go off and
    call 3700 professionals from out of the phone book, interview/get
    estimates from 700 of them - all to understand the
    associated costs, risks and benefits, options/choices, etc
    of whatever project I'm considering at the time.  I thought this
    time I might be able to save myself some time and draw on you folks'
    experience......
    Anybody else got a "things to consider" list about this?

re: Inserts, Zero Clearance Fireplaces, vs masonry

A zero clearance fireplace (ZCF) can look EXACTLY the same as a "real"
brick, marble, slate etc fireplace from the inside of the house and
it has some very significant energy advantages over a traditional masonry
fireplace.

There are two basic styles of ZCF. The most common is the one that was
described in earlier notes. It has air passages between the firebox
and the exterior of the fireplace and vents on the top/bottom or sides
 of the firebox. This allows air from the house to circulate around
the firebox and back into the room. External air is provided to the
box to eliminate the loss of heated air up the chimney. The major
disadvantage of this style is the exposed black metal on the front or
sides of the firebox where the vents are located.

The second style of ZCF has no vents, and therefore has no black metal
which needs to be left exposed. It has real firebrick lining in the
firebox, and it has external air supply to keep it from sucking heated
interior air into the fire and up the chimney. From the inside of the
house, it is impossible to distinguish this fireplace from "the real
thing". I installed such a unit with a marble facing and hearth and
a wooden mantel. When the building inspector and fire chief came over
to do the final inspection they did not believe it was a metal fireplace
until they touched the underside of the top of the fireplace. From the outside
of the house, it is easier to tell because I built the chase out of wood
and covered it in the same siding as the house. 
                                                
My reason for describing this is that from an energy perspective, the ZCF is
superior to even the best built masonry fireplace on an outside wall. You can
insulate a ZCF on an outside wall such that it will not conduct the cold from
the outside into the house. The typical brick fireplace passes the cold of the
outside into the interior of a house because there is no insulation between the
layers of brick. Brick is not a good insulator. 

    If you are talking about a fireplace in the interior of a house, where the
    bricks can radiate heat to the surrounding rooms when the fire is going,
    the energy issues become much less. 

In addition, the cost of building a tight, masonry fireplace with a external
air supply, with a manual shut off for the vent, good tight fitting glass
doors, etc is going to cost 3 to 4 times as much. 
    
Even if money were no object, I'd go with the ZCF to save the energy and
make the house more comfortable. But that's just my $.02 worth!

I was going to get into this later in the winter when it better aligns with my
plans, but...

I too plan on putting in a zero clearance fireplace.  My main reason is I want
to put one in a second floor bedroom and don't want to go through with the
expense of building a chimney AND giving up the real estate in the first floor
to do it.

I plan on putting the ZCF into an existing closet and running stove pipe up 
through the attic.  However, my big hangup is I want a real brick exterior to
better blend in with the roof and my answer is something like a BRICKMASTER
finish.  I even talked to one of these folks at a shopping mall.  The good news
is they can do it, the bad news is they estimated it would cost close to $700!
I assume that on such a small job they need to get a lot to make it worth their
while.  Anybody know if you can get the materials and DIY?

My second issue is over preventing water from entering the chimney where the
stovepipe enters.  Since a lot of houses already do this I suppose there's some
sort of gasket, but I haven't bothered to look for one yet.

I was tempted to write this as a separate note titled - INSTALLING ZC 
FIREPLACES but elected to drop it in here.

-mark

    
    RE: .22
    
    Wake up, Bob!  Reread note .21
    
    -tm

Re> Re: >$20 too high

Yes, I was serious. However I think if you re-read it will be clearer. I 
entered a reply (.18) in which I gave (incorrectly, from memory) a quote. 
Turns out that it was $20 higher than what I was really charged. So I
entered a subsequent note saying so. 

So, what "$20 too high" meant was that the first $ amount I gave was 
$20 more than what was really quoted. It did not mean that I thought $20 
was too much to pay. I suppose I could've titled the reply "oops, made 
a mistake, the real quote was $65 not $85" -  but there wasn't room, or 
was there let's try it.

Chuck

    NE Brickmasters will save you weight but when we got quotes from a
    place like them and a regular mason to do the same with real brick the
    difference was minimal. Check real brick out too. It's cheaper than you
    might think (or the Brickmaster stuff is more than you might imagine).

>>        The base noter said that the value of the house would increase by
>>    $2100, not that it would cost $2100.  
    
 >   No he didn't.
 >   He said the tax assessment would increase by $2100.  
    

     Whilst we're nitting...
    
     He is a she
    
     :-)
    

    I have just moved into an unfinished house that I'm building.  I
    was originally planning on putting in a real nice woodstove/hearth/
    chimney but began to consider a ZCF instead.  In my original plan
    I wanted to put the chimney outside on the south wall and insulate
    it.  When I began to consider the ZCF I learned that the ZCF and
    all fireplaces require that there be no angles/bends between the
    ZCF/fireplace and the chimney.  I understand that some gentle
    angles are permitted but nothing like 90 degree bends.  In order
    to do the ZCF in my house, I would need to do two things, either
    place the ZCF inside the house as well as the chimney which then
    impacts the living space on the second floor. This also means a new
    pad in the cellar and possibly much greater masonry work inside.
    Or cut a larger hole in the wall, build a bump out to house the
    ZCF outside the house, with additional masonry etc.  I'm now
    considering the woodstove option again.                      

re: using brick instead of brickmaster

I'd LOVE to use real brick, I'd probably even take a crack of putting it up
myself.  However, this is purely a case of weight.  I've gotta believe to go
with real brick above the roof would require serious structural work below
probably including footings in the basement to hold it all up.

re: no bends in ZCF stovepipe

I admit I hadn't looked into this, but it sounds surprising to me.  Isn't a
ZCF not a whole lot more than a fancy wood stove (sort of)?

-mark

RE: 2878.13                   

On the brick chimney, how tall a chimney are you planning? If I understand
your plans, the metal chimney will pierce the roof, so the brick is only
for the section above the roof. If the chimney is close to the peak
of the roof, you are not talking about a tall chimney. I'd think you could
do that yourself with the 1/4" bricks that are sold at Brewsters or other
home building supply places.

>My second issue is over preventing water from entering the chimney where the
>stovepipe enters.  

The is a metal flange/gasket sold with the stove pipe that will take care
of this.

Note 2878.16 

You can have upto a 30 degree bend in a ZCF chimney. That is enough to allow
you to have the fireplace in the house and get the chimney outside in the
first story.

Here's a crude drawing of what I mean:

             ++
             ||
             ||
             |+-------------------------------------------+
             |+-------------------------------------------+
             ||
             ||
             \\ <-- 30 degree
              \\
              |\\
              | \\  <-- 30 degree
              | ||
              |++++
              ||  |
              ||  |
              ++--+---------------------------------------+
              +-------------------------------------------+

    You owe it to yourself to consider the option of putting in a large
    wood stove that also functions like a fireplace; something like
    the Vermont Castings Defiant. The point of a fireplace is to be
    able to view a burning fire. You can do that very well with a
    Defiant, which has large doors in the front. You can also close
    those front doors, like when you're getting ready to go to bed,
    and the stove will continue to make good heat without sucking the
    heated air out of your house.
    
    Finding a good mason who can put in an exterior chimney is one
    thing. Finding a mason who can build a fireplace, with the attendant
    firebox, smoke shelf, etc., and do it all right, is something else.
    If it isn't done properly, it will suck a tremendous amount of air
    out of your house and throw little heat. Getting the proportions
    of the firebox, smoke shelf, flue angle, etc., right, is a combination
    of art and science, requires large amounts of brick, and with the added
    weight, requires a larger footer so the whole thing doesn't settle.
    There was this Brit, back in the late 18th century, named (I think)
    Rumsford, who made an exhaustive study of fireplaces and why most
    of them didn't work very well. If you're determined to build a masonry
    fireplace, look this guy up in the library and make sure your mason
    has heard of him and knows how to build fireplaces according to
    his formulas.
    
    Or you could have the mason just lay in the chimney, the thimble,
    and a nice brick hearth on which you set something like a Defiant
    and be happy forever.
    
    Just an opinion.
    
    Charlie

    Wow.  A ZCF!   Never heard of it but it seems to be the answer to
    my problem (retrofit without massive masonry and foundation work).
    
    What is not clear to me is what one does on the outside wall?  I
    assume you have to cover the back of this thing.  Is regular framing
    with sheathing/siding adequate?  What do you use for insulation
    - is fiberglass adequate for contact with something hot.
    
    The flue pipe must run up the outside of the house.  I'd need a
    hole in the roof eave overhang, I presume, or else I'd have a lot
    of funny bends in the pipe.    What kind of pipe is used?  Can it
    be encased with standard framing/sheathing/siding, too?
    
    What do typical ZCFs cost? (uninstalled)
    
    
    Jim
    

    
    I added a ZCF about 2 years ago (on an interior wall).  I faced
    it with marble--people are amazed when I tell them that the fireplace
    was added (the house was built in 1908).
    
    Zero Clearance means that the sides and back can be placed next
    to combustible materials (studs, etc); so for an outside wall, you
    would build a chase and insulate it.
    
    I paid $600 for a 36" wide ZCF; the stove pipe (I used triple wall,
    but double wall is ceapter) cost another $600 (I needed about 30').
    
    I have been extremely happy with this solution; particularly when
    the alternative was a mason who wanted $5,000 AND insisted that
    the main carrying beam of the house would have to be cut in two!!
    
    

    Why do you need n-wall stove pipe if the pipe runs up the outside
    of the house?  I guess if the outside chase encloses the pipe also
    then you might need some fancier interior pipe, but if the pipe
    is out in the open on the outside, do you need multiwall?
    
    Jim

    If single-wall pipe is run on the outside, the hot gases condense
    against the cold walls of the pipe and creosote builds up rapidly.
    Poor draft, a leaky pipe (due to rusting surfaces), or a chimney
    fire are some likely results.
    
    Jim

    
    	I to have looked into the ZCF and almost went with it.  My problem
    was getting someone to install it.  I called masons and was told
    that carpenters usually do the installations.  When I called the
    carpenters, most of them weren't to knowledegable about them.  Then
    I went the route of having a real masonary fireplace put in and
    getting several estimates.  I had 7 masons come and write estimates.
    They ranged from $3800-7200.  That's for a 38" wide, 28" high full
    masoned fireplace and chimney.  I chose a mason whose estimate was
    $4000.  He is licensed, which most are not and will be taking me
    to some of the jobs he has done.  He has also been in business for
    over 25 years, learned from his father.  I would of spent almost
    the same for the ZCF because I would of needed a footing for the
    stove going through the wall, a chimney to cover the pipe and the
    bricks to cover the inside wall (our choice).  So the amount of
    masonary worked needed would almost be equal, so we chose the real
    thing.  The only outside cost is the glass front, the tools, the
    wood grates.  I didn't see much of a benefit with the ZCF except
    the heat efficiency.  
    
    just my views,
    
    DAN STEWART
    

    ZCF have many styles.  There are a set of them that are designed
    for energy efficiency.  I'm building a new house and just put two
    Majestic's in.  With the fan they'll produce over 50K BYU's.  No
    special framing or support is required.
    
    The stoves are about 25"x42"x54".  3/4" space to framing members
    behind and above, 7/16" to the side.  The triple pipe requires 2"
    air clearance.  Up to 3 elbows needed (w/ supports).  No addtional
    brackets needed up to 30 ft (straight shot).
    
    Internal or external piping is fine.  Outside air intake is easy
    with a metal dryer venting kit. 
    
    You can make a nice formal fireplace in as little as a space 6'6", by
    framing a 5" face wall (+1/2" spacing) on either side of the opening
    and running the face to the ceiling.  This leaves enough room for a
    6x8" tile border and a mantle (using 1/2" sheetrock) 
    
    You need 28" on either side to combustable walls by most every fire
    code.  Metal fire stops are needed between floors (but not the roof).
    Outside a plywood box (17"x17" min) sided to match the house (doesn't
    weigh much so angled 2x4 bottom bracing is more than sufficient.
    
    If you wanted to put it flush with an existing interior wall you make a
    support foundation from piers joists and plywood (a 1" piece of rigid
    foam would be a good idea as well) and rest the stove on that (weighs
    about 250+ lbs).  Build a balloon frame to a point 3' heigher than the
    roof eave (2' over nearest projection etc), snap on the flue pipe, box
    it in and side to match the house.  Not a time comsuming DIY job. 
    
    I set one diagonally in a room with a cathedral ceiling and another
    boxed in between the entry and bathroom doors in a master suite.
    Only work needing more then me was a couple of people to carry the
    damn things, and someone to steady the chimney box while I tacked
    it in place.
    
    -kevin
    
    
    

><<< Note 2878.25 by SYSEFS::MCCABE "Mgt is still your best entertainment value" >>>
>
>    Outside air intake is easy with a metal dryer venting kit. 

      Careful,  there.   The  dryer vents I've seen all have a flap that
      gets blown open by the dryer exhaust.  But the air for a fireplace
      or stove will be moving in the other direction and will just close
      that flap tight! So, you'll need to remove the flap. Probably good
      to  put  some  screen or wire mesh to keep out insects and various
      critters.

      I  looked  into this about a year ago for a project which is still
      on hold. (Hope DEC stock goes up soon!) The appropriate components
      for  an  external  air  source  are  available  from  the stove or
      fireplace  manufacturer   and/or   from   a   stove   pipe/chimney
      manufacturer. A "damper" to enable shutting off the air intake was
      recommended.

      I   advise  consulting  with  the  dealer  or,  even  better,  the
      manufacturer of your fireplace or stove.

      Another  though  on Dryer Vents for air intake.  Most of these are
      aluminum or plastic.  Thats fine for the temperature that is found
      in  dryer  exhaust.   However,  neither  of  these  materials  are
      appropriate for any part of an air intake that will be close to  a
      fireplace or stove.  Use steel pipe where it will or even might be
      exposed to high heat.  Better yet, use steel for  the  entier  air
      intake. 

    Watch This Old House this Thursday, Saturday, or Sunday (12/29,12/31
    or 1/1).  They will be installing a ZCF.
    
    Kathy

re: .-1

Don't expect much from "This Old Bob".   If the latest shows are any indication,
they won't show you how to do the install, but they'll give you a nice tour
of a ZCF manufacturing plant!  8^)

    I saw TOH last night. I thought they did a nice job explaining
    the ZCF and its installation.
    
    The thing that really turned me on, though, was that $26,000. whirlpool
    tub! I want one!!
    
    Mike

Gee, Mike... we musta saw different shows!  8^)

I thought they did a sh*tty job explaining how to install the ZCF... if fact,
they didn't explain the installation process at all!  They explained the 
operational principles involved, but we already knew those!  8^)

I wanted to see them put it in.

Is it me, or has This Old Bob turned into nothing more than a 30 minute 
commercial?  Seems more and more like they are using nothing but state-of-
the-art new fangled wizgizzies...

I guess I'm just jealous because I can't get Dr. Bose to wire my stereo for
me, or afford the closed circuit television over the jacuzzi to answer the
door from.  8-)    I really don't care to know all about the particular
product that they use, I want to see HOW YOU DO IT!  But if they just told
you how to do it, the manufacturer wouldn't donate the product, and the
poor homeowners wouldn't be able to afford the Bose sound system, custom
granite walls, high tech security system, motion activated light switches,
$26,000 jacuzzi you can fill from your car phone, et al aud infinitum!

Sheesh... (disassemble soapbox, sulk away tail between legs, and hope 1989
           brings us a real honest-to-goodness DIY home improvement show)

    
    RE: .31      Ditto!
    
    From what was said, I concluded that ZCF = ZCWS (wood stove).
    The cost was about $900, installed.  But I suspect the installation
    is the same as a wood stove.
    
    But one thing caught me.  When Big Bob asked why the air intake
    was insulated, the guy said it was so it wouldn't make the floor
    cold.  Am I missing something here?  Was he serious?  It sounded
    like hi-tech triple overkill to me.

    Phil

re < Note 2878.31 by MISFIT::DEEP "Sometimes squeaky wheels get replaced!" >

    I watched TOH last night, and agree with .31 that they did a shitty job
  of explaining the installation.  The thing I was waiting for them to show
  was how to connect the flue to the outside, what precautions must be taken,
  tips, etc.

    I also agree that TOH has gone downhill this year.  Bob is now a yuppie
  who never gets his hands dirty.  At least Norm still does some work.

    And the current episode is all about new construction, hardly what the
  name of the show implies.

    

So when are people gonna call channel to and complain?  I've already done it and
perhaps is enough people call in they'll start getting the hint.

-mark

    
    Just what I was going to say!  If the station isn't getting complaints
    from the viewers, they'll continue the direction they're going.
    If the people stop watching they'll have no market.  The dealers
    certainly aren't going to complain!

Station address and telephone number please?

    I think that TOH is deliberately going after a  different audience.  In
    the  beginning, TOH showed you how to do things yourself.    Now,  they
    show you what you can buy, and give a very superficial  explanation  of
    how to do it.  I suspect Channel 2 figured out that  most of the people
    who give them money have lots of money themselves, but not much time or
    interest  in  DIY.    So, they moved to a program style which gives the
    Beefy and  Buffet  types  lots  of "concepts" and just enough technical
    info so they don't feel like dorks when they talk to contractors.
    
    Flame off, etc.
    
    I saw something in Fine Wood  Working  which might be good for shutting
    of an outside air inlet.  It  is  called  a  gate,  used  in  shop dust
    collection systems.  It looks like a guillotine  valve,  and  is made of
    cast aluminum.  A 4" one lists for $15.00  from Wilke Machinery.  (FWW
    Jan/Feb issue, page 87)

    Well, I guess we all get different things out of TOH. I certainly
    don't watch it for a DIY show. I watch to be entertained. I love
    work, I could watch it for hours.  ;-)
    
    Perhaps the ZCF explanation was lacking, but for what I wanted,
    I was satisfied. I guess I really don't belong in HOME_WORK since
    I'm the type who likes to keep my hands clean and pay someone else
    to do the dirty work! 8-) However, I still enjoy learning from this
    conference and do enjoy TOH. Who knows? Maybe someday I'll become
    one of the real people and actually try a DIY project, then I can
    join y'all in making my dissatisfaction for TOH known to Channel
    2.
    
    Mike

    In the January issue of the Channel 2 program guide, there's a short
    blurb about a new show that's coming on starring...Norm!  He's
    going to show how to build several projects, including a blanket
    chest and some other things along that line. There are going to
    be 13 segments.  It sounds promising.  
    
    

    
    ....to continue the tangent...
    I saw the GBH blurb too....starts 1/26 and will air before TOH on
    channel 2...sounded pretty good!
    

    Well I just bought a ZCF (at Cambridge Alternative Power Co).
    The price breakdown was approx:
    		Basic unit (36" firebox)      $450
                Brass surround w/glass doors   250
                Blower                          50
                Grate                           35
                Pipe, flashing                 230
                Chimney cap w/spark arrestor    50
    
                Total                         1200
    
    This is a circulating kind, so I get room heat plus fireplace all
    for the above.  Seems reasonable.  I'll report back on how the
    DIY installation went.  First perusal of the instructions indicates
    they are pretty cryptic. For one thing, this unit weighs 250 lbs
    and most of that weight is toward the back of the unit (firebrick
    etc), so it's going to need reasonable support underneath.  Since
    it's going on an outside wall, it can't just be cantilevered out
    with only the 3-1/2" house framing to hold it in around the front
    perimeter!  So I gotta do something clever out there.
    
    They wanted $55 for the outside air vent.  You can do better with
    dryer vent parts, as noted, if the unit is mounted in an outside
    chase since it is only inches from the exterior.  The $55 buys you
    this long length of fancy flexible insulated hose which you might
    want if you had to go a ways between the zcf and the exterior vent.
    
    I got contradictory input on whether the chase should be insulated.
    Since the zcf itself is quite insulated, it boils down to the effects
    of running the first 7 feet of flue (double wall) through a cold
    or warm space.  Any takers on this one?
    
    Jim
    

I thought that insulating the chase gave you hotter gasses up the 
stack, and less creosol (sp?) buildup in the flue, but thats just
based on what I read here, which is usually entered by people like
me who have experience on somethings, but an opinion on everything!

8-)

Bob

RE: .41

>    it's going on an outside wall, it can't just be cantilevered out
>    with only the 3-1/2" house framing to hold it in around the front
>    perimeter!  So I gotta do something clever out there.
 
I had the exact same installation and I built a platform out from the
house, supported by three 2x4s at a 45 degree angle.     
                                                          
              +--------------+                            
          H   +-+------------+		The top frame was screwed into
          O   | |        //             the band joist with 6" bolts.
          U   | |       //                                          
          S   | |      //               Then the 2x4 for a chase were
          E   | |     //                attached to the platform and
              | |    //                 house.                            
              | |   //                        
              | |  //                         
              | | //                          
              | |//                           
              | |/                            
              | |                             
              | |                             
              +-+                             
                                              
By the way, you might want to consider how your design will look from the
outside. After I built the design above and enclosed it with insulation and
plywood, by SO said "That looks ugly. Let's continue the chase down to the
ground so it will look like a regular fireplace." Needless to say, I wish
that decision had been made before I went to all the work. I admit it
does look better now with concrete blocks and siding all the way down
to the level of the surrounding house.
                                      
>    Since the zcf itself is quite insulated, it boils down to the effects
                                      
The reason a ZCF is insulated is to keep heat from the fire from causing
combustion of nearby materials. You still need to insulate between the ZCF
and the outside air!  Otherwise when the ZCF is not in use it will conduct
the cold from outside into the house. (I wish I had put 6" of unfaced
fiberglas instead of 3" on mine, because I can still feel the coldness
when I touch the firebox.) 

>    I got contradictory input on whether the chase should be insulated.
                        
The dealer I dealt with recommended multiple wall flue and an insulated
chase to keep the pipe warmer and thereby prevent creosote build-up. I
don't know if it was really true, but I did it. A side benefit was that I
could make sure that the cold air would not sneak down an uninsulated area
of the chase, onto the top of the metal firebox and thereby chill the
house! 
                        

    Whoa.  
    
    Hitch Number 1.
    
    This thing is going into a chalet (45 degree roof).  It's going
    on a non-gable outside wall.  So the chimney pokes through the eave
    fairly close to the edge of the roof.  BUT the instructions say
    the top of the chimney has to be AT LEAST two feet higher than the
    nearest roof surface ten feet away in a horizontal direction.
    
    Well with a 45 degree roof and the flue at the lower end, that makes
    the pipe 12 FEET OFF THE ROOF!!!    Is this right?
    
    
    
                         /\
                        /  \         | 2'
                       /    \---10'--|
                      /      \       |
                     /        \      |
                    /          \     |
                   /            \    | 10'
                  /              \   |
                 /                \  |
                /                  \ |
               /                    \|
              /                      \
    

re .44
    
>   Well with a 45 degree roof and the flue at the lower end, that makes
>   the pipe 12 FEET OFF THE ROOF!!!    Is this right?                  


    It's right ! Every code I've heard of requires this height to keep
    the sparks off the roof. Tough on the Capes and Chalets ... 

    The extra height is not so much for keeping sparks off the roof as it
    is for getting a good draft up the chimney.  If it was just for sparks,
    a simple spark arrester on the top of the chimney would take care of
    that problem.
    
    Jim

    Inspection is not an issue.  This is a cabin in a dink town with
    no inspections (except plumbing, and then only drainage).
    
    It will have a spark-arrestor cap.  So that's not an issue either.
    
    If the roof were flat, it would only need to be 2-3 feet high. 
    I was planning on about 6 feet.  This seems a reasonable compromise.
    
    Is that roof peak nearby really going to kill my draft?
    
    At any rate, I can always add in more flue sections, but unless
    someone is fairly sure it won't work, I'm starting with 6'.
    
    Jim

  Re: .47 by Jim Swist 

  >    Is that roof peak nearby really going to kill my draft?
    
  It certainly could do that.  If the wind comes across the roof ridge
  from the side opposite the chimney, it can blow a strong downdraft
  _into_ the chimney:

    wind direction ===>-->--->\
                            ^  \
                           / \  
                          /   \
                         /     \   |=|
                        /       \  | |
                       /         \ | |
                      /           \| |


  Which way is the prevailing wind direction?

  JP

    re .47  > ... can always add in more ...
    
    The usual "rule of thumb" for height is about 15' total including whats
    below the roof.  Some people have made due with less. Trees or adjacent
    roofs often play havoc with drafts but it's a case of your total
    situation - stove/fireplace size, flue size, trees, roofs, wind,
    compass direction of house, etc. You never know until you try. 
    
    re .46  > ... extra height for a good draft ...
    
    I agree that additional height helps draft. However, I think that
    the code requirement of " 3' above the roof at exit and 2' above
    anything within 10' " relates to spark control as much as it does
    to draft. Otherwise the code would have also have a minimum height
    requirement. I've never seen one of those. Doesn't really matter
    to me anyway, with my 30' stack ... (8-) !

	Re: .47

	You say that inspection is not an issue, so that instead of using the
code-mandated 12 foot flue you'll use 6 feet unless someone is fairly sure it
won't work.  In your opinion, why does the code exist in the first place?  To
give the inspectors something to do or to protect you from some perceived
danger?  Even if there were no inspectors watching over my shoulders, if the
code told me to use 12 feet, I'd use 12 feet.  Just my opinion -- especially
since I don't have to build or look at this 12 foot flue. :-)

								-craig

    Re: .50, Re: .47 and
    Re: attached garages and
    Re: and others....
    
    EXACTLY!
    
    When are you people going to realize that the Building, Electrical and
    Plumbing codes are there to protect YOU and YOUR property! 

    Charly

<Speaking as a contributor to this conference>

re: The almighty codes

Some parts of the code are common sense.  Some are not-so-common sense.  Some 
are nonsense.  Not blindly following codes is not in itself irresponsible.

<Speaking as a moderator>

re: Validity of building codes

This topic has the potential of becoming a major rathole.  If you want to 
discuss the validity of building codes, see note 1111.61 for an appropriate 
place.  Any more replies to this note about the validity of inspections and 
codes will be deleted.

Paul

    My 1976 (ok, so it is old but they selm downgrade requirements)
    UBC states in chapter 37 section 3703 titled "chimney general"
    part f. HEIGHT and TERMINATION says: 
    Every chimney shall extend above the roof and the highest elevation
    of any part of a building as shown in table 37-b. For elevations
    above 2000' the bulding offical shall be consulted in determining
    the height of the chimney. [here in colorado springs the required
    is 2' above the highest point of the home]
    Most of the A-frame construction here has the chimney exiting thur
    the roof 2-3' to either side of the peak. FWIW- I think this would
    make cleaning from the top a ladder job vs cherry picker job too.
                                                   
                      [picture wonderful graphic here]        
                    [sorry but this terminal lacks a bit]
                  
    Table 37-b  says 2' for home heating appliances and fireplace min.
    above the highest point.
    
    This means nothing of course if the inspector decides he likes it
    different 8^)
    
    Hope this helps, -J
    

	Jim, I know what it's like in a small town with little in the
	way of inspectors.  Matter of fact, I was discussing almost
	the same sort of situation with a wood-stove-person.  What HE
	said was: 
	
	"Sure, it's not upto code but that wouldn't stop me
	but I strongly advise you to contact your insurance company
	and ask THEM, since it's ultimately their responsibility to
	pay the bills when the house burns down."

	Let us know what you decide.
	Scott.

re .55 and others.

Excellent point on the insurance aspect. I guess it boils down to this 
(in what I consider the order of priorities):

	1. Is it safe?

	2. Will the insurance company accept it?

	3. Will it work?

With wood stoves/fireplace you can/should talk to the local fire chief 
in the absence of an "official" building inspector.

chuck

    Based on all this input, I'm going to add another 3' section of
    pipe (this will also require some kind of bracing system - what
    does one use these days - guy wires?).
    
    That will put the top of the chimney 10' away from the nearest piece
    of roof in a horizontal direction.  I'll call that "close enough".
    
    By the way, the code I was quoted (the one with the 10' horizontal
    in it) does not agree with the UBC fragment quoted in an earlier reply.
    The latter implies that the top of the chimney must be 2' above
    any other part of the roof - this leaves lots of ambiguities.

When I put up my stovepipe I needed to brace it and I noticed all those nice
metal poles I've seen used by many people on theirs.  Silly me - I simply got
some electrical conduit and some metal straps from the local lumber yard and
built a very nice (and SOLID) brace for around $10!

When the time came to sell the house, the home inspector told me that since the
conduit is not UL approved, it had to go!  That was the most retarded thing I
ever heard!

I guess my suggestion is  long as you don't have a jerk looking at it, it's a
pretty cheap way to go and still get a good job out of it.

-mark

    re.57
    I dont recall anything about horizontal clearance but I'll check
    later this AM when I get home and enter any requirements listed.
    Sorry for any confussion..
    
    -j

    I haven't seen a code yet that wasn't " 2' above any structure w/in 10'
    and 3' above the point of exit ".  
    
    The companies that sell chimney pipe sell a bracket that attaches to
    your chimney and is secured to the roof via lengths of -earlier note
    acknowledged - supply it yourself conduit. A support is recommended
    for every 5' of pipe above the exit point. 
    
    BTW, Consolidated Dutchwest has a nice "installation planner" guide
    included in their catalog that has all of the information in this note
    and then some. The prices are a little high but it's still a good
    reference. You could probably get one by calling the store in Plymouth
    MA. 

    With reference to insulating the chase...
    
    I got the instruction manual for the ZCF.
    
    It explicitly states NOT to insulate the chase - the theory being
    that it will cause the inside of the chase to get too hot due to
    inability to disappate heat from the portion of the flue which passes
    through the chase.
    
    Comments?
    

    I'm not necessarily adding a fireplace, but attempting to finish
    a fireplace.  Figured this might be the place to get help.
    
    What I have now is a fully operational fireplace with chimney
    etc.  It is constructed of cinder block.  This not the most appealing
    material in the world.  The fireplace sits firmly on the concrete
    slab.  The structure is sound.
    
    Basically, I'm looking at the face which is 8' tall by 6' in width.
    All I want to do is put a decent looking brick appearance on it.  I
    don't want to go to the hassle of getting bricks, cutting them up
    and laying them.  Instead, I simply wanted to get some of those real
    thin bricks with the mortar-like glue and stick them on there.  I've
    seen these before and could not tell they weren't real brick.
    
    I live in the Seattle area.  When I ask around here I get, "Oh, you
    you mean Z-brick, they don't make that anymore."
    
    Is this true?
    
    Is there some way I can accomplish my goal without having a bricklayer
    come in?
    
    I've constructed the entire 1,000 square feet of interior living
    space on one floor by myslef, yet this fireplace problem remains
    unresolved and I've finished the walls etc etc etc.  This is no
    time to hire expensive labor.
    
    By the way, I don't think we have brickmaster around here.  From
    what I've read here, I'm not gonna save any money with them either.
    
    Anybody have any good ideas on this?  National Z-brick like
    distributors?
    
    Help.  I'm going to sheet rock right over the &%^^%^%( if I can't come up
    with something.
    
    Thanks,
    
    /brett

    I put up a whole bunch of z-brick about 3 years ago.  It may not be in
    all the places it used to be, but it is still around (unless something
    happened in the last 3 years).  I found it at a building supply place
    in Maine, but if you check with enough building supply places they
    should be able to find it.  It might be easier to ask a builder or
    carpenter, since they usually know where to find stuff.  It's not the
    cheapest stuff in the world, but it is cheaper and easier than real
    bricks and mortar.  There are a couple of brands around.  Z-brick looks
    and feels a lot like real brick.  Some others look and feel like
    genuine plastic - I don't personally care for them, but they may be
    easier to find.

    How would I get a new water heater vent into an existing chimney?  Would
    it be as simple as banging a hole in the bricks, putting the vent in
    and patching around the hole with some substance (what?)?  Thanks.
    
      Mitch

I don't know too much about chimneys, but I think that's a definite
NO WAY, JOSE!

Seems to me I recall reading that if you try to vent two devices into the
same flu, that you may create a vacuum effect, and draw the fumes back 
into the house, which could be fatal.

Of course, that's the extreme case.

Best to check with an expert.

Bob

See notes 2638 and 3183 for discussions of the problems inherent in putting two
devices on one flue.  Both of those, however, are discussing cases where either
the two holes already exist, or the chimney is not built yet.  There is no
existing discussion about banging a hole in an existing chimney. 

I imagine it will be impossible, because I'm sure that code will require you to 
tap into a ceramic liner, and it would NOT be a good idea to try to break 
through an existing liner - they are often free-standing within the chimney.
If you knocked it over, you'd have a major avalanche within the chimney (which
may take off your hands if they happen to be protruding into the chimney
interior), and which would then require the entire chimney to be demolished and
rebuilt. 

Paul

re .2:

Depends on what is being vented into the chimney.  Certain combinations are
allowed, others are dangerous.  Gas and oil into the same flue are OK (according
to a home inspector), but I believe wood and anything else is forbidden.

Check local zoning, certain areas have their own rules.  Some require a separate
flue for everything.

-Mike

Oh, brother, here we go again.

Re: .-1
> Depends on what is being vented into the chimney.  Certain combinations are
> allowed, others are dangerous.  Gas and oil into the same flue are OK (according
> to a home inspector), but I believe wood and anything else is forbidden.
I'd heard that it's _gas_ that can't share a flue with anything else.  One mason
I talked to has his wood stove and oil furnace on one flue (no claims about it
being inspected and approved, tho).

> Check local zoning, certain areas have their own rules.
Ditto.  Final authority.

    
    
    To reply to the original question, use a cold chissel to break
    through the chimmeny. Scroll out the approx. size hole you want
    and work from there. It's a slow process where you gradually chip
    away the cement and don't hit it too hard. If you have a large
    drill you could put some pilot holes in with a cement bit.
    As mentioned before, take extra caution with the tile liner, drill
    holes in a circle then chip away the remaining tile.
    
    first, check with the building inspector for the codes
    
    ace
    

re .5:

>I'd heard that it's _gas_ that can't share a flue with anything else.  One mason
>I talked to has his wood stove and oil furnace on one flue (no claims about it
>being inspected and approved, tho).

I hope you're wrong, as I have an oil furnace and gas water heater on the same
flue.  The home inspector (John Cornell) said this was OK.

I personally can't see a problem sharing gas with oil.  Gas and oil basically
just produce carbon dioxide and water, while coal and wood produce carbon
monoxide and (in the case of wood) creosote.  Any cooling (air from another
flue) causes creosote to condense risking chimney fires, and we all know what
carbon monoxide will do if it escapes.

I'll check this out, however.

-Mike

In Nashua I was told I could connect the two gas hot water heater flues
together outside the stack and then run that into the chimney exhausting the
gas furnace. That was quite an improvement over the former arrangement where
the previous owner ran them into a chimney that was completed blocked with
wood ash from its former use as a wood stove chimney.  I can't imagine that
they ever vented anywhere but into the basement.

There was no liner in the 85 year old brick chimney.  I used a carbide bit
to drill a circle of holes and punched out the hole with a cold chissel.
There was collar fitting for the flue pipe that fit into the hole which I
cemented in place with some glop I bought at the plumbing/heating supply 
house for that purpose.

I think I have a real problem. Confirm it and I'll act real soon.

This is my first year in a sixteen year old house. The previous owner had a large
fireplace installed in the family room. Inside the width of the brick is 10ft.
It was installed within the last 5 years.

I noticed this spring that outside most of the fireplace is about 1-2" from the
house. That is, from about 4 ft from the ground I can see behind the fireplace
and the stack. I also can see mortar attached to the outside edges that look like
it once "filled" the space between the fireplace and the house.

So I'm worried that I might "lose" my fireplace; The relatives are afraid to
stand next to it!

Do I have a problem? If nothing else I should somehow fill/block off the space
so the NH snow/ice don't get in and push!
Recommendation for mansons in my area? (Amherst NH)


Thanks for your help,  steve dtn:264-4429

    Sounds like the foundation for the chimney was not sufficient and has
    settled which is causing the chimney to pull away from the house. Can
    you say many $$$ to fix properly?  I knew you could.  In theory, you
    could hire someone to jack up the low side, and pump concrete under the
    low side, thereby creating a new foundation on the low side. 
    
    But what is causing the low side to be low.  Was the foundation for the
    chimney built on fill dirt and the dirt is still settling? Or is the
    foundation settling because of water?  Or is the foundation settling
    because it is broken because it was insufficient for the weight of a
    brick chimney? 

    How well will the chimney take to this kind of action?  Well it might
    lean back towards the house and be fine.  It might break and tumble.
    It might crack the liner and cause a fire hazard. 
    
    Should you fill in the gap between the house and the chimney?  If
    the chimney is not going to pull away from the house anymore, then
    I would say yes.  If you are going to have the chimney straightened,
    then wait until it is in its final resting position before filling
    in the gap.  
    
    Sounds like you need to have an structural engineer and a mason come
    out and look it over.  You might also want to have a "foundation fix-it
    company" look it over. 

    
      Chimneys are NOT supposed to be attached to the house (code is
    usually around 2" clearance from wood), but the siding is usually
    brought right up to them for asthetics. However, your case sounds
    extreme. It may be that the unit settled to this position 4 years
    ago and will not move any more, but the best thing you can do at
    this point is to follow the advice in .1 and have a structural engineer
    check it out.
    
    					Kenny

    
    I had a chimney built 2 years ago. The national code (that's what
    the fire inspector went by) called for the chimney to be at least
    1" from the house but no more then 2". And it WILL be attached to
    the house every 4 feet by way of metal tiebacks. I don't think the
    code has changed that much in 2 years.
    
    Mike
    

    
      re: .3
    
       You're right about the metal ties going from the mortar joints
    back to the framing. What I meant was that the BRICKS are not really
    attached to any wood. 200 years ago, the (center)chimney was a
    structural member of a house. Beams went through parts of it, rested
    on it, in short, it held up the house around it. That isn't done
    anymore because of the risk of fire from heating up the surrounding
    wood. The point being that the chimney is just "there" it doesn't
    really hold up anything, and the ties are just to help insure that
    it doesn't fall over! (though if it really wanted to it would probably
    pull the wall down with it if allowed to)
    
    					Kenny
    

We *almost* bought an old [30+ yrs] house that had a similar problem.  Our
nifty home inspector saw it, and pointed it out.  Seems that the man who
built the house took alot of shortcuts, including one less support in the
basement than he was supposed to have.  When we stripped the wallpaper off
in the master bedroom, we saw major cracks in the walls.  When you walked
on the floor, you saw that it was sort of lopsided.  

The inspector recommended a jack/lally [sp?] column to support that part
of the house.  He said that we could never make it better, but could pre-
vent further damage.

                      THE HAPPY ENDING TO OUR STORY:

Fortunately for us, the title of the house was a total legal mess, in the
courts for well over 1.5 yrs. due to deceased relatives haunting all at-
tempts to buy the house!!!!  We never bought it, and we're glad of it.  

Good luck with your chimney; I hope you're able to enjoy many cozy fires
this winter!  

P.S.  We bought a wonderful house, complete with fireplace & chimney, and
no sagging floors or leaning chimneys!

hi,
  I'll have someone come look at it. Also, I'll ask the previous owner.
   I'll respond with my results.  Thanks to all of you.   steve

re .5:

You didn't buy it, yet you stripped the wallpaper?  How would you like to
come to my house and look for cracks in the walls?

    I am going to install a single chimney cap so that
    it covers three flues. One is a 8X8 for a woodstove
    in the basement, the second is a 8X12 flue for the
    fireplace on the first floor and the third is a 8X8
    flue for the oil burner.
    
    The two chimney caps manufactured by this company are
    made of stainless steel or copper. Both have lifetime
    warrantees.
    
    The copper appeals to me more because of color, I have
    a copper roofed portico on the front of my house, so
    I understand what color it will turn and about the risks
    of copper stains. Price $100 stainless, $130 copper.
    
    Copper roofs will last upwards of 75 years. 
    Taking into consideration the acids involved with 
    woodsmoke, does anybody have any data to the life of
    a copper chimney cap as compared to the stainless?
    
    Or what amount of time either of these caps will 
    last? 
    
	thanks, Steve
    
    

One problem with a chimney cap and a woodstove is that creosote will tend to
collect on it, often running down the outside of the chimney and on the roof,
leaving a black mess...

-Mike

    The life time of  the  SS  will  depend on what alloy it is.  There are
    very  corrosion  resistant  grades  and    then    there    are    less
    expensive/easier  to  work  grades.    I    suspect  it  will  be  very
    difficult/impossible to find out what grade of  SS  is  being  used  in
    theses  chimney  caps.  If the copper sheet  is  really  solid  copper,
    without  alloying  elements (and this may be easier to  verify  by  the
    color) Then I would guess you are better off with  the  copper.  If you
    are  really  into  corrosion  resistance  you  may  want to have a  cap
    fabricated out of titanium sheet.  It is not as expensive as  you might
    think, I bought some Ti sheet a year ago and paid about $20  a  square
    foot or so.    The working properties are similar to working stainless.
    It can be cut/drilled with normal tools, but use lots of oil and a slow
    cutting speed.
    
    gjd
    

re: .0

which company is it you're dealing with?  i should be in the market for one 
of these also.

craig

    re: .3
    
    It is a wholesaler. They haven't asked for a dealer number
    in my calls and said that they would take MasterCard so
    I believe they will sell to me. I will let you know
    there name and 800 number when I get mine.
    
    By they way, I have been told that there is a special
    paint (only in black) that will cover stainless. I will
    probably go stainless now, and because it is not as soft
    as copper.
    
    So far, from what I gather, there is supposed to be 4"
    of space between the highest flue tile and the lid of the
    cap. But this seems to apply for only well drawing chimneys.
    
    My highest flue tile is 3.5", so an 8" high cap will probably
    do. When I call around and confirm this from one or two
    more sources, I will order mine. I am hesistant because
    I have a really good draft and don't want to screw it up.
    Also, I think the 12" cap would look strange, along with
    letting a lot of wind blown rain in.                                   
                                          
    	Steve

hi again,

well i didn't have the inspector come for the chimney. The previous owner said
the space between the chimney & house occurred one year after it was done and
hasn't moved since (3 years).  Sooo

Now that winter is soon to come I would like reccommendations on what I should
do to seal off the space on either side of the chimney (about 15 ft each side
with a 2" space.

I want the easiest solution.
I thought of flashing screwed into the house and glued (liquid nails) to the
chimney. Then clauking the edges.
Any ideas,  thanks,  steve

How about some locations in the marlboro/northboro/central mass areas
for purchasing cimney caps.  i checked out sommerville but they did not
have what i wanted.  i also looked in the yellow pages but all i could find
was a ton of chimney sweepers.  thanks.

-jim

    I just bought a stainless steel one from Feens Country Living in Twin
    City Mall in Leominster. It was about $45.00. 

    Spags carries the black ones. They don't always have 'em, tho..
    ask in the grill aisle.
    
    Delgreco Masonry Supplies in N'boro carries them too, for about
    twice the price.
    
    ...tom

RE: last few.

Thanks for your help.  I succumbed and bought
one at Grossman's for 30 bucks.  I didn't see them
at Spag's lately and couldn't wait any longer.  It's hard
to shop anywhere but Spag's, these days.

-jim

Anyone have any ideas on how long a tile chimney lining should last in a flue
that is only used by an oil burner?  We were told our's needs re-lining but the
house is only 30 years old -- is this timing about right? Or was the tile 
probably installed incorrectly to begin with?

I am having a water problem with my fireplace.  The house is over 2 years
old and did not exhibit the problem until this past spring.  I was getting
water in the fireplace when it rained.  I had a chimney sweep come and inspect
the fireplace, flue, etc. He did not find anything wrong except a few small
holes at the top of the chimney (which he patched) and recommended a chimney
cap (which I installed).  That solved the problem of water IN the fireplace.
However, I am now (I think I did before as well) getting a very large, very
wet spot on the outside of the chimney.  The chimney is made of concrete 
blocks and I am afraid that if I don't find out what the problem is quick,
it could freeze and heave.  I've had several people recommend that I seal
the outside of the chimney with Thompson's or something.  Others have suggested
it could be a flashing problem.  There is a gap along the side of the chimney
that probably should be caulked as well.

What I am looking for is a recommendation for someone in the Nashua area
who can solve this problem.  I'm not sure if I should call a mason or a
roofer or what.  Talking to the builder or the mason who built it is like
talking to a wall. Any ideas?

Dave

    First thing I'd do is to have an inspector look at the effected
    area and have him make a recommendation. A Town/City inspector may
    also be willing to offer a method for having the original builder
    fix the problem (I say maybe).
    
    It does sound like your house is settling.... your chimney one way
    and your house another. You may also want to have someone check
    the base of the chimney (ground level) to insure it is not shifting.
    
    While figuring out a perminant solution, you might want to go with
    the caulking/tar to get you through the wet/winter season.
    

    It should last as long as the mortar holds things together.......

    Sorry if this is A) obvoius to the experts in the aduience or B)
    addressed elsewhere. I looked, but found no direct references...
    
    TRUE or FALSE:
    
     The flue liners in a two-flue chimney (one for the oil burner, one for
    the fireplace) must be separated all the way to the top of the chimney.
    
    That is, Must the flue liners for both flues run the full height of the
    chimney to conform to code? 
    
    When up on my roof last week to clean the chimney in our two
    year old house, I discovered that the flue liners ran only up to the
    eves. Above that, was nothing but the inside of the chimney.
    
    Curiously, the very top of the chimney is capped much as you would
    expect it to be, with two liners, side by each set in cement.
    
    Am I illegal?  
    

    Are you illegal?  I would guess that you are.  But the authority on this
    is your local building inspector.  If he says that you are illegal, you 
    should be able to get the builder to come back and fix it :-)
    
    It sounds to me that the mason ran out of flue tiles when building the 
    chimney, and couldn't be bothered to come back the next day ...
    
    	Andrew
    

I've looked at a number of the "leaks","flashing" and "chimney" notes, 
but didn't find much of anything on "stopping leaks due to gaps in the 
chimney flashing", so...

I have a new house, and the stone chimney is flashed with lead (?) 
sheet. The roof has settled a bit, I guess, and the flashing has pulled 
away leaving daylight showing inside the house. Oooops. I have heard 
that the flashing is applied by hammering the lead so that it conforms 
to the stone; should I just go up there and repeat that process? Should 
some form of caulking be used in conjunction/instead? Should I let a pro 
go after it?

           ken- tired of having the rain & snow & cold air in the house...

>                -< Repairing leaks in stone chimney flashing? >-
re: .0
Gee, nobody's ever done chimney flashing????

Oh, well, I guess if I figure out how to do it I'll report back here...
                                         ken

    Bend the flashing back and goop the hell out of it with asphalt-based 
    roofing compound available at any hardware of homeowner's store.
    
    Piece of cake.   Except don't get that black goop where you don't want
    it!

    "Goop" can lead to "Oops" if you're not careful.  The goop cracks when
    the when the weather gets cold or it gets old and dry. 
    
    The A-#1 method is to STEP-FLASH the shingles to the side of the
    chimney, then COUNTER-FLASH the step-flashing with the lead flashing.
    Wish I could draw a picture...  A good flashing job needs no tar, goop,
    or "monkey-dung".
    
    The problem with "doing it right" means that you'll have to dig out the
    old step flashing and that can be a bummer, so  GOOP it! :-}
    
    Don

    Your copper color would not last long....it will turn green
    after a while, unless you get up on the roof and polish it.
    
    The stainless that is used for most of these kind of parts will
    last much longer than you, there should not be any need to treat
    it with anything....use flashing as an example....which would likely
    be of thinner material than that of the cap.

I just had Master Chimney Sweeps clean out my flue for $80. They also sold me 
an 8x12 SS Cap for an additional $135. The only reason that I bought it was 
that there was evidence of rust on the damper. I figured that $135 spent now 
was cheaper than contracting the services of a mason.


Question: Is $135 outrageous for one of these babies?


Chuck_who_knows_alot_about_home_fixup_but_nothing_about_chimney_caps

    If you bought the cap because of rust on the damper I think thats the 
    wrong reason. The damper is going to rust to some degree if you put
    the cap on or not. The cap will keep water out of your chimney and
    will help minimize downdrafts but moisture will still settle on the 
    damper and assoc metal parts so rusting will probably still happen. 
    As far as the price of the cap, I spent $47.00 on a S.S. cap that's 8"X8" 
    and I had to install it. 

I bought a single S.S cap for 2 12"x12" flues (right next to
each other) for $145 installed. I forget the exact size of the unit,
but it was something like 14"x30"

>    The problem with "doing it right" means that you'll have to dig out the
>    old step flashing and that can be a bummer, so  GOOP it! :-}
    
Tanks, folks! Maybe I'll have at it when the weather gets balmier - I was
fired up before, but this last snow has drowned my enthusiasm molecules...

                                   ken

	I am having my chimney relined, can any one tell 
	me which is better?

	1. Using clay tiles.
	2. Using stainless steel.


Thanks a lot for your time.

M-

I would think clay tiles are better, longer-lasting, and, correctly made, better
able to withstand potential chimney fires.

I would also think stainless steel would be cheaper to install.

I can't imagine how anyone could reline a chimney with tile, though, without
tearing apart the original (maybe tile itself).

There are notes in here (ancient memory) about stainless relining, including
the method whereby "stuff" is poured down all around a stainless chimney,
completely filling the existing chimney space.  This method, I think,
practically guarantees a chimney-fire-proof chimney.

    
    We just bought a house with a fireplace.  The previous owner had
    blocked the chimney when they were frightened by a squirrel coming
    down the chimney.  In addition, they snubbed the chimney at the
    roof line, (I guess you could say they "capped it") and they 
    covered the area with the slate roof tiles.
    
    my question is : Who do I call to put the chimney back on ?
    DO I call a roofer or a mason ?
    
    ..rke
    

A mason.

    
    Great !  Will the mason be able to put the slate tiles back on
             the roof ?
    
    

    
    
    		You will have to ask the Mason. When you start getting
    		the qoutes ask the mason then....be sure they can do the
    		roof. The one I know is very good and his skills cover
    		more than mixing mud and laying bricks.


                                                                        
    		Gary

    Possibly but you may have to have a roofer skilled in installing slate
    roofs come out and patch/fix your area.  I agree that for chimney
    repairs, a mason is your best place to start.

    
    
    	Has anyone else done this ? 
    
    	I'm finishing my basement and want to build a brick hearth for 
    	my wood stove. I have a cinder block chimney sitting on a the
    	concrete slab in the basement.
    
    	I want to plug up the old opening and open up another one 
        a couple of feet lower.
    
    		1. Can it be done without collapsing the whole
    	  	   chimney ?
    
    		2. Can I do it myself ?
    
    
    							Mike
    							----

Mike,
	You shouldn't have any trouble with the hearth.


  >	I want to plug up the old opening and open up another one 
  >     a couple of feet lower.


		Why? Is it because you can't get the upper clearance..

    
   >		1. Can it be done without collapsing the whole
   >	  	   chimney ?

		Yes it can. It is a lot of work. Mainly in trying to re-seal
		the old opening you got. You have to cover that with another
		peice of flue tile. To do this you would need to match the 
		current hole in the tile with a new peice. 
    
   > 		2. Can I do it myself ?
    
		Yes it should be. It will mainly depend upon whether or
		not you feel you could cut the hole, and do cement work.
		If you have built a block or brick wall before you
		should be able to do this.	


		If it were up to me I would assess the need to lower the hole.
		If I absolutely need to have that hole lower, clearance
		problem, I would do it myself.


				Bill   

    
    
    	I currently have the a PVC soil pipe running about 7 inches 
    	above the flue opening. I want to hide it with a drop ceiling
    	inorder to do that I need to either drop the opening or mar a 
    	potentially attractive part of the room with a white PVC pipe.
    
    	One of the other DIYers who happens to work on the other side
    	of my building has read this note and graciously offerred to cut 
    	the openning for me and show me the "proper" way to lay brick 
    	too.   
    
    	Thanks for your response Bill.
    
    	This file is great !
    
    						Mike
    						----

    RE: .-1
    
    Not to burst your bubble, but...  You need 18" of clearance from the
    top of the pipe to the ceiling.  Having a PVC pipe over this is not a
    good thing either.  Prior to any work, talk to the local fire dept. 
    They are responsible for the fire end of code inforcement.  Also,
    setting up the system with their approval will eliminate any problems
    with insurance coverage later on.
    
    Dan

    
    
    	I gave the building inspector for my town (Winchendon, Ma.) a 
    	call. He's not aware of any minimum clearance from the top of 
    	the waste pipe to the ceiling. He suggestted I speak to the 
    	plumbing inspector if I wanted to be real sure, but since I'm
    	not planning on moving the wastepipe that shouldn't be an issue.
    
    	I asked about boxing the pipe in with a drop ceiling and he 
    	said that shouldn't be a problem either.
    
    	BTW. I'm concerned about the insurance issue also that's why
    	I took out all the proper permits consequently all proper the 
    	inspections.
    
    						Mike
    						----

    I believe .5 was referring to 18" of clearance for the FLUE PIPE,
    not the PVC PIPE.

    RE: .-1
    
    Sorry if I wasn't clear.  The 18" clearance required is for the STOVE
    pipe not the waste pipe.  I am assuming that the pipe exits the stove
    and goes into a thimble which extends from the chimney.  The highest
    point of the pipe must be at least 18" down from the ceiling.
    
    Dan

    
    
    	Well... Either My house was built in violation of code or
    	that can't be right.
    
    	The house was built in 1988.
    
    	I've also been running a woodstove since then using the existing
    	opening. Inorder for Metpay to insure the house with the wood-stove
    	I needed to have a copy of a signed inspection to make sure the 
    	everything was done properly.
    
    	This was done. There was never a mention of the PVC pipe being to
    	close, however, I did hang a 16X16 inch sheet of stainless steel
    	between the woodstove pipe and the PVC pipe for my own peice of
    	mind and I remember the inspector commenting that it wasn't necessary.
    
    
    						Mike
    						----

    
    
    	.8 snuck in as I was writing.
    
    	I'll make sure the new flue opening will be at least 18 inches 
    	from the the drop ceiling. (It'll also be the fire retardent type )
    
    	Thanks for the info.
    
    						Mike
    						----

    re: .9
    
    The 18" requirement was in effect as of the 1987 code, I think.  Since
    each town must adopt the code it wishes to enforce, I think its safe to
    say that your house was built under the 1984 standard.  My house in NH
    was.
    
    Dan

    To open up an old topic with a slightly new twist...
    
    How important is it to seal the bricks on your chimney?  My Chimney
    sweeps seem to find something else to try to sell us every year.  A
    few years ago it was a new stovepipe, which we installed.  For a few
    years, it was a chimney cap (which we finally installed after finding a
    flying squirrel in our woodstove).  Now, they want to put some sort of
    sealant on our chimney - and they said explicitly NOT to use Thompson's
    (because we would have to reapply every year).
    
    So, how important is it to seal the outside of a brick chimney, and is
    there anything we can apply ourselves? 
    
    					Mair
    

    I have a fireplace in my living room that has a dedicated flu. I do not
    use the fireplace anymore and would like to close off the flu because I
    feel that warm air must be excapeing from the house. I have closed the
    dampers in the fireplace, but there must be a more air tight method.
    I would like to keep the option of using the fireplace again in the
    future so a permanent solution is not what I am looking for.
    
    Are there products available ?
    Is it legal?
    Is it dangerouse?
    Is it easy?
    
    Any thoughts will be appreciated. Thanks.........Jim

There is - when I was at the Home Show in Boston last month I saw a clever
chimney cap which had a chain running down to the fireplace.  You pulled
on the chain and the cap closed tightly against the flue with a rubber seal.
I have the brochure at home and will enter more info about it.  I want
at least one of these, but the installer who was promoting it was Boston-area
only.

You can also get foam blocks which push up into the flue opening to seal it 
off, but I like the cap idea better.

				Steve

    I did something for my parents that works quite well.  I got a sheet
    of .1" acrylic plastic at a glass store (it's the stuff they put in
    storm door windows now) and cut it to fit exactly inside the wood trim
    around the fireplace.  I painted the back of the area that corresponds
    to the opening black, and secured it in the opening with some heavy
    clear tape around the edge.  I needed to make up a wood block to
    go across the bottom of the opening behind the plastic; I didn't have
    to attach the block to anything, I just put a strip of wood across
    the front of the opening, with a couple of strips going back to the
    back of the fireplace, with a couple of bricks on them to keep the
    whole assembly from sliding.
    
    Anyway...it's pretty unobtrusive, and it certainly seals a lot better
    than the flue damper.  When the wind blows, the plastic buckles in and
    out. Now that I think about it, I think I might have been able to slip
    the top edge of the plastic under the edge of the moulding around the
    bricks, but I'm not sure about that.  

When I bought my current house, the previous owner had placed a piece of
plywood over the chimney, held in place with a couple of concrete blocks.
It seemed to block the chimney pretty well, was unobtrusive, and you can't
beat the cost.

    
    Re .3:
    
    There something about that much mass, that high, and loose, that makes
    me cringe.
    
    Of course, it also has the advantage of keeping the rain from
    compacting the air in your chimney :-)
    

    Possibly one could suspend a weight from the sheet of plywood so
    the weight was inside the chimney, rather than sitting on top.
    (I share .4's apprehension of the whole thing blowing off at some
    inopportune moment.)

    Our chimney is rather large - 3 feet by 4 feet.  The 12" square flue
    ends flush with the top of the chimney.  For the past two non-heating
    seasons (our primary-heat wood stove is in the fireplace) we've covered
    the flue with a piece of leftover particle board - a bit denser/heavier
    I think than plywood.  I leave a crack uncovered in case we
    accidentally start up the stove but forget to remove the board.

    You can't see the board from anywhere except when you're on the roof,
    so it's not ugly.  I'd guess that any wind wouldn't be enough to
    "catch" the board, since its edges are "inside" the edges of the top of
    the chimney.  Yes, even a small-ish board like that - if it ever *does*
    fall - can cause damage, but ... weigh the risks and costs.

Here's the info on the "Lock-Top Damper" made by Fireplace Technologies Inc.

	Fireplace Technologies, Inc. has created the Lock-Top fireplace
	damper to function both as a damper and chimney cap.  A durable
	construction of cast aluminum and stainless steel guarantees you
	many years of usage.

	Installation is simple and the damper can be easily controlled from
	your fireplace.  Six sizes are available so the Lock-Top can be
	used with any chimney opening.

	The Lock-Top damper will put an end to constant chimney problems and
	is a necessity for your home.

	- Non-restrictive - will not inhibit draw

	- Seals out mammals, birds and insects

	- Constructed of cast aluminum

	- Easy to open and close

	- Serves as chimney cap when open

	- Prevents Heat and Air Conditioning loss

Sizes are 8x8, 8x13, 8x17, 13x13, 13x17, 17x17

The national distributor is Copperfield Chimney Supplies, 800-247-3305.  If
you call them they'll put you in touch with a chimney sweep in your area who
does installations.  I don't think they sell directly to the public.

The manufacturer is Fireplace Technologies Inc., 1715 Dixie Highway,
Louisville, KY 40210, 502-772-1067.  I called them and spoke to a charming
woman named Laura who gave me the info about the distributor.

Also, if you're in the Boston area, "Boston's Best Chimney Sweep",
617-527-6777 installs them.

The damper cap is aluminum with some sort of soft seal, supported by
stainless steel spring wires.  When you pull on the chain, the cap pulls down
against the wire spring tension and seals against the aluminum base.  There
is a bracket which mounts inside the fireplace which latches the chain in
place.

    re .4
    
    >>>Of course, it also has the advantage of keeping the rain from
    >>>compacting the air in your chimney :-)
    
    Seems to me an air shredder would be a perfect solution to that
    problem. :^]
    

	I hesitated entering a note about this since I figured I would have
to resurrect the infamous air shredder note. But since someone else broke the
ice...

	I own a large colonial home with a center chimney. The chimney is
probably about 5' by 3', with 5 flues configured as;


	-------------------------------------------------
	|						|
	|	    +-----+ +-----+ +-----+		|
	|      +---+|	  | |	  | |	  |  +---+	|
	|      | A ||  B  | |  C  | |  D  |  | E |	|
	|      +---+|	  | |	  | |	  |  +---+	|
	|	    +-----+ +-----+ +-----+		|
	|						|
	-------------------------------------------------

		A = Oil/furnace flue
		B = Living room fireplace
		C+D = Large hearth family room fireplace
		E = Propane fired water heater flue

	My problem: We have had a woodstove in the family room for three
		    years, attached to flue D. It is a Consolidated Dutchwest
		    stove connected to the chimney via a stainless steel duct
		    inserted into the flue. The duct goes several feet into 
		    the flue and then there is a collar which closes off the
		    rest of the hearth opening.

		    Starting this year (month) I have had water running 
		    down the left hand side of the family room hearth. 
		    Any time it rains or snows, and the stove is operating,
		    this happens. Didn't seem to happen during the summer.

		    It appears that it is running down flue C. During
		    my annual flue cleaning, I checked the chimney cap.
		    No cracks or changes since last year.

	So... 	Any ideas why this would start happening now?
		Any idea why it seems to be related to the use of the stove?
		   (Especially since it seems to be in the non-used flue. I'm
		    trying to avoid pulling out the insert to inspect because
		    it is a royal pain to install.

		Finally, because of this and minor drafting problems when there
		is a small inside/outside temperature differential, I have been
		considering installing a cap. What I had in mind was building
		pillars 3 or 4 bricks high on each corner, and in the middle,
		then caping them with a piece of bluestone (better ideas
		welcome) which is somehow bolted to the pillars. Is this
		a crazy idea?
		
			    				Mark

	P.S. My air shredder, purchased at the now-defunct tackle counter at
	     Spags is working fine but does not seem to be helping.	

    
    Regarding the basenote,  unless this is a traditional brick fireplace
    there might be air inlets beneath or around the firebed which can also
    cause drafts and allow heat to escape.  In this case, sealing the
    entire front with plexiglass is probably the best solution.  One
    problem with just capping a chimney is that there is potential for
    moisture to condense inside the flue - a possible cause of wet rot in
    the flooring members.  try and seal it both ends if you can.
    
    (condensation could be the problem in the previous note, depends on
    how much water you are getting and when.)
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin

> Here's the info on the "Lock-Top Damper" made by Fireplace Technologies Inc.
>
> The national distributor is Copperfield Chimney Supplies, 800-247-3305.  If
> you call them they'll put you in touch with a chimney sweep in your area who
> does installations.  I don't think they sell directly to the public.

No Need to pay a Chimney Sweep's inflated price. I just purchased one
of these myself (a different brand) this very afternoon! 

Most masonary supply places seem to carry them. I got mine at Risi's
in Northboro Mass. The damper fits an 8"x12" flue and cost $70. Other
sizes are available. The brand I got fits the same description as the
previous one but is made by Lyemance International, Jefferson Ind.
Phone (812) 288-9953. 

Installation looks pretty straight forward. Cement the cap to the top 
of the flue and then drop the cable down to the fireplace. Down below, 
you mount a bracket to the firebrick, attach pull chain to cable and 
cut off the excess and you're done!

Kesseli & Morse in Worcester also had top dampers available but wanted 
$90 for an 8X12".

Charly

    Re .9
    
    We have similar problems - four-flue chimney, two fireplaces, furnace,
    one "spare" and the spare leaks onto the living room hearth.  If the
    leak is external to the flue, it probably originates at the flashing.
    If internal, you'll probably have to cap it, like we did.  Rain only
    entered when the storm came from a partcular direction.
    
    PBM
    

    re: .0

    	How about just stuffing some fiberglass insulation into the chimney 
    	flue from the fireplace?  It's not so elegant, but who cares? I've 
    	seen this done many times.  It's simple, cheap, out of the way, and 
    	whenever you want to use the fireplace just pull out the insulation 
    	and fire it up.
    
    
    	agb

Brookstone sells a foam block which you push up into the flue opening to
seal it off.  It has finger holes for easy removal.  The cost is a bit higher
than I am willing to pay for a piece of foam (about $30, I think), but it's
simple and elegant.

				Steve

Fiberglass does a terrible job of insulation if air is flowing through it.
Some research lab did a test of the R value of a wall in which fiberglass
insulation was suspended between the walls, not touching either one.  They
found that the effective insulation was about half the rated value, just 
from convection currents inside the sealed cavity.  If there had been gaps
in the wall and a pressure differential, the effective R value would have
probably dropped far more.

So if the air pressure inside and outside your house is different (which
is often the case), I don't think fiberglass won't do a lot of good in the 
chimney.  The best thing is to find a way to stop air infiltration, or at
least limit it to the level of, say, a reasonably tight window.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

PS -- As a side issue, fiberglass fibers are not such a pleasant thing to
have floating around in the living space.  At least, they bother me.

    I have a split level 4 years old with a recent chimney problem.
    I have creasote (SP?) and water mixed, at least that's what it 
    looks like, leaking into my downstairs. It also is leaking through 
    on the outside of the house as well. It seams to be soaking right 
    through the mortar where the bricks meet the foundation. Also it
    is coming through where there are slight cracks in the foundation.
    
    Now like I said the house is 4 years old and never did this before.
    I've been cleaning it out the same as last year. I run a chimney
    brush through it every other month. Usualy taking out about 3+ gal.
    of crap. I also use that powdered SAFE-T-FLUE a couple times a week.
    
    If anybody has seen this stuff it is like maple syrup and black like 
    tar. Worst of all it smells like creosote and I don't know how to 
    clean it off the foundation walls. 
    
    I don't have a chimney cap, if this makes any differance at all. I 
    have a fireplace on the first floor and a wood stove on the ground 
    floor. Each uses it's own flue in the same chimney. I rarely ever use
    the fireplace. The problem is only on the side of the chimney which
    the wood stove is on. The wood stove is burnig almost always.
                                                  
    1. What is causing this?	2. How do I stop it	3. How do I clean
    
    up the mess?     4. Why me?    Thanks,  Jim - the new home home owner 

    Whoops!  Sorry about that. My question should have been the original 
    note and not REPLY .3
    
    Hang with me, I'm new at this.           Jim

Jim, just a couple of thoughts;;;
                                                      
   �� 1. What is causing this?	
      Since the stove is burning almost always it does sound like it is
      creosote.causes=== low flue temperatures;;; wet wood. this could be
      just from having sat out in the rain and gotten soaked not
      necessarily green or unseasoned. (hint does your wood fell a little
      damp and is it real heavy?) 

      LEAKING THROUGH THE MORTAR::::::: Shut off the stove let it cool get
      a chimney sweep or better yet the builder in there NOW to inspect for
      cracked or missing liner. No way should it leak through anything if
      it was done right.

    2. How do I stop it? 

       PUT OUT THE FIRE�!�!� then see para 2 above.

    3. How do I clean up the mess? 

    Check with a chimney sweep. It will be be more cost effective
    (considering a nervous break down as the alternative) 

    4. Why me?   Lucky I guess 8*)

      Good luck. I had one OOLLD house where that started to happen on the
    inside of the chimney in the attic. solution--- clean the
    flue - repoint the mortar - install flue liner. ignore stuff on attic
    chimney.  

    Well....
    
    I had a profesional chimney sweep come by and check it over. He told me
    I was probably not burning hot enough. I've been going by one of those
    woodstove magnatized thermometers that is supposed to show when your 
    burning good, too hot, or creating creasote. He basicaly said the thing
    is junk and should not be put on the stove pipe like the directions 
    say you can but should only be placed on a stove top surface. The dial
    says I'm o.k. to burn at about 225 or so. He says I should always burn 
    between 375 and 450. 
    
    Wet wood may also have alot to do with it. Although it doesn't seem wet
    it does weigh a TON.
    
    He explained that what was coming in onto the floor was a mixture of
    condensation from inside the flue and creasote. He told me it is a pain
    to clean up. I used speedy-dri and then oven cleaner and a wire brush.
    He said the flash point on it is so high that where it was leaking
    through wouldn't have created a problem. What was still in the chimney
    on the other hand was another story. 
    
    I also had him clean the flue and chimney pipes from the stove.
    
    To reply to RE .5   The leak isn't coming through the chimney but from
    where the chimney ends and meets the foundation. Inside at that point
    is where the collection is for all the ashes. On the inside is the
    clean out door. It's only leeking at the end of the brickline on the
    outside of the house and at the seam where the foundation wall meets
    the floor on the inside. Luckily this is in my workshop and there are
    no rugs or sub flooring.
    
    Thanks for the info,  Jim

    OKAY!!  Don't you feel better now?
    based on what you described I agree with the chimney sweep. And guess
    what???? wet wood will burn a little cooler than good dry wood. If you
    can hear it hissing like steam when it starts to burn it is wet. This
    could cause some of the condensation . Stuff leaking out of the
    clean-out is bad enough but at least it is not likely to burn because
    it is below the level of the hottest part of the flue or chimney and
    yes it does have a very high flash point there. 

    
     I cann't help but throw my two cents in for what its worth . 
    
    I have be burnning wood in two stoves for 15 years so I do have
    some experience . 
    
     Without a doubt wet wood increases the amount of cresote produced.
    I only burn wood that has seasoned for at least one year. 
    
     Second is I use the thermoeter on the stove pipes , not for a
    indication of creosote but for when the flue temp is getting too
    hot and its time to shut the dampers down . I don't believe they
    are junk at all but a cheap saftey device.  
    
    John

    Back when I was burning wood, I found a stack thermostat to be very
    useful indeed.  I'd also advise keeping the temperature over 300,
    at least.  400 may be better.  You need to ensure the moisture doesn't 
    condense out all the way to the top of the chimney.  

    Another alternative might be to get a catalytic converter for your
    stove.  I too heat entirely by wood, but have minimal problems with
    creosote through the use of the catalytic converter.  For about $125
    you can get one for 8" or 6" stove pipe.  It looks like a round honey 
    comb with a handle on it sitting in a short section of stove pipe.  You
    leave it open until the stack temperature reaches about 200f and then
    turn it on.  The stove surface temp goes up to about 600 to 700f, but
    above the converter the temp remains about 200 and is almost all steam
    with very little of the smell of smoke.  According to the manual you
    can actually burn all green wood.  It actually makes a load of wood go
    alot longer since you can close the damper down quite a bit and still
    get the heat, as you are really only burning the smoke.  The creosote
    is converted to gases with lower flash points.
    
    I still clean my chimney about every 2 months, but there is almost no
    build up.  I do have to brush the converter out though, because ash
    builds up in it.  The manual says that it will burn up to 95% of the
    creosote.
    
    So far, I have heated since the second week of Nov. on just over 4
    cords of wood with the average temp about 68f.  This is in New England.

    Tell us more about the "catalytic converter". How's it work?
    Does it use electricity or some kind of fuel? I hear that some
    day we may all be required by &*^$%*^&*^ LAW to install one.
    
    To cut down on creosote: burn dry wood and free burn twice a day.
     (Old school)
    
    					Jack

    
    The catalytic converter works just like the one in your car. It's a
    chemical reaction. The exact process I'm not sure of. As to it being
    required, that's not true. The Fed's are/have required new stoves to
    meet a certain smoke/polution cap. But this can be met with either a
    catalytic or by some other means. I know of at least 2 stoves that meet
    these requirements that don't have catalytic converters.
    
    Mike

    Sounds like alot of wood, 4 cords, already. I have a three bedroom
    split level, good size, in New England, and I only need 4 cords for
    the whole season. That's without any other means of heat.
    
    I'ld be interested what some of you other noters burn in a season.
    I always felt I burned alot. My wood stove is a 55 galon drum which 
    has been converted with one of those kits they sell in the mags. I
    didn't make it but it throws a TON of heat! Best part is I can load
    in some VERY long logs.
    
    Thanks for all the info,  Jim

We've gone thru about 1.5 cords heating a 24x32 cape.  My stove is a 
Consolidated Dutchwest catalytic/convection stove with blower.  When the 
blower is on, we balance the temperature by opening a few windows.  The
catalyst is a platinum/ceramic unit that is in the stove.  We rarely burn at 
full tilt.  As far as creosote buildup is concerned, it's really noticeable
inside the stove, however, we have our chimney cleaned every other year, and
the sweep is always amazed at how clean it is compared to what he thinks
it should look like after 2 years.  On of the things I've noticed, too is that
when I walk thru the neighborhood, our chimney has the cleanest smoke around
(except when we forget to engage the catalyst).

    We go thru ~ 4 cord a year, heating a 30x45 split finished both floors.
    I am "always cold" but this seems to keep the house toasty enough for
    me. The oil is back-up, and we go thru about 400 gallons a year. That
    figure is just a guess since we fill it 3 times during the year when 
    it's half down.
     
    The stove is 13 year-old All-Niter, and we use fans to push the air
    upstairs and to the other end of the house.
    
    Lynn
    

    
    I own a duplex. My side is 1500/sq ft with 4 bedrooms and 1 & 3/4
    baths. The house is only 7 years old. It was build with electric heat,
    so the house is well insulated. I added 9" of insuation to the attic
    for a grand total of 15". My total wood usage is 2.5 - 3 cords a year.
    I keep the house at 65 - 70 throughout.
    
    Mike

    
    
    I have a 24x50, 20yr old ranch that I havnt totaly finished 
    referbing yet.  A 10yr old Shannindowa (SP?) wood furnace and 
    an oil backup hot air system.  I'm down to 4to5 cords during 
    the winter months and 3/4 of a tank of oil.  I try to keep the 
    stack temp about 300'.  The flue gets a once a year cleaning but 
    the 6ft of pipe gets it once a month.  The wood is seasoned at
    least 1 year if not more.  I dont get much of a build up this
    way and it cut down the amout of clean time.
    
    JD
    

    This seems the right place to ask this since I have not seen it
    elsewhere (yet).
    
    I have a woodburning fireplace that has a single, lined flu up a brick
    chimney.  I am going to use the flu for my oil burning furnace.
    I am going to run the vent pipe up from the basement through the floor
    of the fireplace.  The fireplace is then defunct and out of usage.
    (Only the oil furnace will be making use of this flu).
    
    My question is, after I run this vent pipe up through the brick floor
    of the fireplace, up past the ledge/damper (sorry I don't know the
    right names) of the fireplace and into the flu,
      - how far do I run the vent pipe
      - how do I secure it/seal it in place.
    
    Background:
    Bought a house with a 5 year old power-vented oil burning furnace.
    
    Oil burning furnace gave it's all but power venter/poor maintenance
    forced oil burning furnace to roll over and die.
    
    At one time this now dead oil burning furnace was vented up said flu
    through the floor of the chimney.  Someone converted this to
    power-venter and patched the floor of the chimney to make a, yet once
    again,  working flireplace.
    
    Power venters have their place and mine ain't one of them.
    
    This is a temp solution until I win megabucks and at that time build
    another flu for the furnace.
    
    Thanks -Tim

You might want to look into some modern flue components.  You don't need to
use masonry anymore.  Some stainless steel pipes used for wood stoves and the
like might allow you to put in a second flue for a few hundred dollars.
(compared to a couple of grand for a brick chimney.)  Check with your local
wood stove shop and/or furnace people.

Stan

I looked thru the notes but didn't see and notes that answer this question
although the answer to this might be obvious, please excuse my ignorance,
first time home owner...

Do I need to have my chimney cleaned if its only being used for exhaust
of my gas water heater & gas FHA system?

Thanks..


				John

PS. The house is about 30 years old and to the best of my knowledge never
    has the chimney been cleaned!

    My chimney (furnace and HW exhaust only, 30+ years) showed no sign
    of any build-up when I knocked it over.
    
    Edd 

    RE: .0
    
    I would clean it once.....unless you know *WHAT* the previous owner
    burned. Gas, in itself, shouldn't leave behind any "crud", but
    you should check/clean the chimney if you don't know it's history.
    
    Marc H.

    I wouldn't bother.  If it makes you feel better, pull the pipe out
    of the chimney and look in to see if there's any buildup.  If it's
    been used only for gas, there won't be.  

I hope this is a good note to post this request in -- have been rumaging
through the chimney notes and could not find any references to masons.

I am trying to find some recommendations for masons to rebuild a chimney. The
chimney is in an 1812 house and needs to be rebuilt from the firebox up.  I
had once mason come out and give me an estimate, but I was not enthusiastic
about either the mason or his price.

Any referrals would be appreciated, either in reply to this note or via mail.
I live in Brookline, NH.

Thanks.........

dana

    Best bet may be to inspect from both the top and at the bottom trap
    door for removing ashes. The main thing to look for are bricks that
    have fallen to bottom, and dead animals (squirrels) that may have
    slipped down the chute. In fact, I've been advised that it is good
    practice to but a cap on the chimney (such as chicken wire).
    
    Last week I had 3 English Sparrows fly down my woodstove chimney! This
    is the second of 3 bird squadrons. 

	    Your chimney should have a clean out door at the base.  On a
	bright day, place a hand held mirror inside the chimney and aim it
	so you can see along the chimney walls.  You will probably be able
	to see the seams between the ceramic liner sections and the walls
	will look pretty much smooth.  If not, call a chimney sweep.

					Tim

I could not find a discussion under 1111.chimney, so here is the question:

There is a central chimney for the fireplace in my cathedral-ceiling
family room.  When it rains hard, the ceiling area abutting the chimney
as well as the chimney bricks near the ceiling get wet.  I had noticed
some stain when I bought the house.  I got two suggestions of how to fix
the problem:

1) One roofer diagnosed the problem as follows: the chimney is big
   (approx 2'x5'?) and there is a single flue.  The rest of the area
   on top of the chimney is sealed by concrete.  The theory is that
   the concrete had been poured during colder weather and subsequently
   developed cracks.  The suggested solution was to apply some
   water-proof stuff to seal the top of the chimney.  

2) The inspector and another roofer (both are highly recommended in this
   notes conference) diagnosed the problem differently.  They told me
   that the problem is with the flashing around the chimney.
   The inspector said that there was no counter-flashing, whereas the
   roofer said the counter-flashing was already there, but the problem
   was with the flashing not laid down properly.  When asked about the
   condition of the concrete on top of the chimney, the roofer said
   that he could not see any cracks.  The suggested solution was to
   fix the flashing.

At the time, I trusted (2).  Part of the reason was that (1) was quoted
at $300 whereas (2) quoted at $120.  From my point of view, I could see
no reason for them to differ by that much - so I concluded that (1)
was probably over-charging.

Several months after the repair, during the rain storm of December 92,
the leak occurred again and was even worse than before.  My questions are:

a) What is the responsibility of the roofer who did the repair?
   I have called him several times and he promised to take a look at
   it and has not gotten back to me.  What can I expect from him?

b) Should I try (1) now.  Have others had this kind of problem and
   tried doing (1) to fix it?

If you have cheap bricks (and you can bet the contractor probably didn't use
the highest quality) then they may be porous.  They have to be sealed to stop
them passing the moisture.  The more rain, the more wetness you should see.

You can get a masonary sealant and (if you have aren't prone to acrophobia) 
do-it-yourself for about $20.

Stan

    
    I'm working on a similar problem with my "new" house.
    
    So far I've had two masons look at it, and I'm looking for a third
    opinion (and good weather) before I commit to an attempted fix.
    
    RE: .1 
    	Sealing the bricks was suggested by the first mason.
    BUT properly sealing a good sized chimney will cost more than a mere
    $20 for a can of masonary sealer!
    
    See the other notes in this file about the relative merits of some of
    the "cheap" silicone-based masonary sealers.  They will not last more
    than 5 years and will have to be redone.   A good permanent masonary
    sealer will cost a bit more per gallon and depending on the amount of
    chimney to sealed may easily run more than a $100 in material cost
    alone.
    
    -------- 
    In my case, the first mason would seal the bricks, and redo the chimney
    cap (to seal any cracks and add some slope to the mortar) 
    
    The second mason wasn't so sure that mere sealing was the best solution
    and also wanted to check and repair all of the roof flashing (pull up
    the shingles, etc.) to his statisfaction before he would garantee the
    repair.  He also suggested a chimney cap, and spent some time looking
    for possible flue problems.   (the mortar on my chimney is poorly
    raked, with many voids... water can get between the brick and flue and
    cause problems)
    
    With the recent heavy snow and rain storms causing more leakage than
    ever, I'm inclined to have the mason try "everything" when I pay them
    to come out.  Hopefully then, I can get them to come back if they fail.
    
    The only reason I won't try to DIY is the lack of proper laddering and
    scaffolding to work on the roof.
    
    	Dave.

    Even if the brick is very porous, the flashing should extend between the
    courses far enough to stop any water coming down the interior face of
    the brick. The flashing also serves as the damp course for the chimney.
    
    What's possible is that the chimney has moved in relation to the wood
    frame and created a gap somewhere between the two.  Normally, the
    interface between brick & wood allows for a gap and a bit of movement. 
    A two-part flashing compensates for the movement.  Could be that the
    builder used prefabricated one-piece flashing (no counterflashing)
    and it's no longer forming a complete seal.
          
    Problems like this can be hard to diagnose and fix, but I'd go along
    with 2.  The fact that the brick is visibly wet below the ceiling
    seems to point to the flashing.  A problem with the concrete cap would
    allow water to enter the *inside* of the stack and you should be able
    to find evidence of it at the bottom - if you can get to see between the
    fireplace and the stack.  

    [Go into the basement, underneath the fireplace and remove the
    insulation below the fireplace.  You may see some indication that water
    is penetrating - damp patches or dried stains possibly with a brown
    residue.  If this is the case, then the cap is suspect and water is
    coming down the inside.]

    Another possibility is that the flashing is OK, but the severe rain
    is getting in at the edge of the roof because some shingles are lifting
    in the wind.
        
    $300 seems reasonable putting on some quality sealer, whereas $130
    seems too cheap for doing a thorough job on a flashing.  I suspect he
    simply went up there and squirted some roofing cement around.  Wave
    goodbye to that cash unless you want to take him to the small claims
    court. 
    
    If it is an incorrectly laid flashing the job is pretty substantial and
    may involve removing some roofing shingles and possibly even cutting
    the existing flashing out of the brick and pointing in a new flashing.
    I'd expect it to be several hundred $ worth.  You should also be sure
    that you tell the roofer that you want the *leak* repaired - not the
    flashing *or* the cap.  That way, you have some recourse.
    
    Any chance you can talk to the original builder about the construction
    method?

    regards,

    Colin
     

    I had a similar problem with a chimney that went through the roof.  It
    had both step flashing and counter flashing. The cap, pointing, bricks
    and flashing appeared to be in good condition.  However driving rain 
    sometimes resulted in wet bricks on the inside and occasional dripping.
     
    Some sources recomended sealer.  Some sources recomended against
    sealer.  I contacted sealer manufactures and they would not state that
    their sealer would do no short or long term harm.  Therefore I chose
    not to seal.
    
    One of the masons suggested that temporarily wrapping the chimney with
    plastic to, but not over, the flashing would define whether the
    moisture was seeping in through the masonry or around the flashing.
    
    With the plastic on the interior remained dry suggesting that the
    moisture path was through the masonry.
    
    My solution was to have the masonry torn down to the point where the
    chimney passes through the roof. A single sheet of lead flashing
    covering the masonry plus one foot around the perimeter was installed.  
    The lead was turned up inside the flues to catch rain on the flue walls.
    Weep holes were provided just above the flashing to drain any moisture 
    in the masonry.  The chimney was then rebuilt approximately as original
    height with new "used" brick.
    
    Hope you find something useful in this account.

Thanks for the replies.  Some more questions:

RE: .2
I notice you got "masons" to look at the problem.  What is the difference
between masons and roofers?  (in terms of applying their stills to
solve this kind of problem) Where do you look for them?  Can you send
me some recommendations?

RE: .3
>    A two-part flashing compensates for the movement.  Could be that the
>    builder used prefabricated one-piece flashing (no counterflashing)
>    and it's no longer forming a complete seal.
I went up with one of the roofers and saw the there was some
counterflashing which is flashing that start from chimney and hangs down
towards the roof, right?  (The reason that I am not sure is that the
inspector had told me that there was no counterflashing!)

>    Problems like this can be hard to diagnose and fix, but I'd go along
>    with 2.  The fact that the brick is visibly wet below the ceiling
>    seems to point to the flashing.  A problem with the concrete cap would
>    allow water to enter the *inside* of the stack and you should be able
>    to find evidence of it at the bottom - if you can get to see between the
>    fireplace and the stack.  
>    [Go into the basement, underneath the fireplace and remove the
>    insulation below the fireplace.  You may see some indication that water
>    is penetrating - damp patches or dried stains possibly with a brown
>    residue.  If this is the case, then the cap is suspect and water is
>    coming down the inside.]
I am not sure what you are suggesting me to look.  In the garage, which is
below the room with the fireplace, there is a small door for collecting
fireplace ashes.  Anyway, I will take a look and see if there is signs
of wetness in the fireplace or underneath it.

>    $300 seems reasonable putting on some quality sealer, whereas $130
>    seems too cheap for doing a thorough job on a flashing.  I suspect he
>    simply went up there and squirted some roofing cement around.  Wave
>    goodbye to that cash unless you want to take him to the small claims
>    court. 
>    If it is an incorrectly laid flashing the job is pretty substantial and
>    may involve removing some roofing shingles and possibly even cutting
>    the existing flashing out of the brick and pointing in a new flashing.
>    I'd expect it to be several hundred $ worth.
The roofer explained to me that the problem was incorrectly laid flashing,
and he was going to take it apart and put it back properly.  He charged
by hours ($25/hour) and estimated 4-5 hours of work.
I do not understand what is involved to apply the sealer.  From what I
naively imagine, it is similar to painting?  If the sealing material costs
$100, as Dave suggested, is it reasonable to pay $200 for labor?

>    Any chance you can talk to the original builder about the construction
>    method?
I tried to find the original builder (for something else) and was told
that he has gone out of business and cannot be found.  My house was built
about 5 years ago during those crazy years.  I bought it second-hand.
     
RE: .4
>    One of the masons suggested that temporarily wrapping the chimney with
>    plastic to, but not over, the flashing would define whether the
>    moisture was seeping in through the masonry or around the flashing.
>    With the plastic on the interior remained dry suggesting that the
>    moisture path was through the masonry.
Good suggestion, except how do you know when the rain is coming.  For
small rains, I cannot visually observe any leak.  Also, how long can
the wrap stay up there?  How ugly does it look?
   
>    My solution was to have the masonry torn down to the point where the
>    chimney passes through the roof. A single sheet of lead flashing
>    covering the masonry plus one foot around the perimeter was installed.  
>    The lead was turned up inside the flues to catch rain on the flue walls.
>    Weep holes were provided just above the flashing to drain any moisture 
>    in the masonry.  The chimney was then rebuilt approximately as original
>    height with new "used" brick.
How much did this rebuilt chimney cost you?  Sounds like a BIG job.
Can you elaborate a bit on which sealer manufacturere you talked to and
what did you found out.  I am not a perfectionist, and would be willing
to live with a solution that protects the house for a sufficiently long
time.  Thanks.

    
    Yes - the flashing that comes down from the stack is the
    counterflashing.  Note .5 describes exactly how it should be correctly
    installed to prevent water finding its way down the stack below the
    roof level. 
    
    I was suggesting that you check inside the base of the chimney to see
    if you can find any evidence of water coming down the inside, to
    eliminate the possibility of water getting in through the cap. You
    probably won't see anything in the ashbox, more likely between the
    brick exterior and the firebox (if you can see in there).  Anyhow, I'm
    less inclined to think that you'll find anything. The suggestions in
    notes .3 and .5 are probably the way to go. 
    
    Sounds like you need to consult a mason.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    

    RE: .5
    
    - Most of the work is masonary involved.  Masons can do simple roofing,
    but I don't trust roofers to do masonary work.
    
    - Sealing the brick would be "merely" painting it with a sealer.
    The sealer may run about $10-$20 /gallon.  It would depend on the
    amount of chimney to be covered how much this is going to cost in
    material and labor.  In my case I have two chimneys: one on the side
    of the house, and one that goes through a roof.   I was quoted $500
    to seal both at one time.
    
    - I may of confused two issues around the top of the chimney.
    Both masons have been concerned with the "finish" of the top of the
    bricks around the flue.  The mortar should not be cracked, and should
    have a slope, so that rain and snow doesn't just sit on the top.
    Additionally, one said I should consider a chimney cap, a metal thing
    that blocks the rain from directly falling down the flue.  This is
    more obvious if you do observe wetness in hearth or ashbox (as
    previously noted).
    
    Crude diagram follows:
    
    
    		       =========== Chimney cap
    			|	|<- expanded metal screen (also keeps out
    			|	|			   birds and squirrels)
    		       /----------\
    		  /----	|	|  ----\  mortar should gently slope away 
    		/	|	|	\        from flue pipe to edge of
    		+------------------------+	 bricks
    		|   |    |    |   |   |  |
    
    	FWIW: 
    	Dave.

    Re .5 Questions
    
    how do you know when the rain is coming?
    I didn't. I wrapped the chimney for a year.
    
    how long can the wrap stay up there?
    At least a year.
    
    How ugly does it look?
    At first more different than ugly.  As the plastic weathered, turned
    white and was shreaded by the wind it became less attractive.  But I
    was fortunate that the chimney is not very visible.
    
    How much did this rebuilt chimney cost you?
    $1500 
    Tear down old chimney, Construct new chimney 6hx6wx2.5d, cap, lead,
    clean up, provide and install new flue top damper for one flue, remove
    old damper. 
    
    which sealer manufacturer?
    Two, Thorough seal and another (cant recall name)  both had products
    intended for exterion application on masonry/brickwork.  Both supported
    the application.  Neither would comit that, properly applied, their
    product would do no harm.
    
    
    Comment:
    Counterflashing does not extend very deep into the masonry therefore
    seepage through a large cross section of masonry is possible if the
    cap, bricks or mortar permit the passage of water.  Pan flashing or bell
    flashing is essential, IMHO, for through the roof chimneys. 
    Falshing/counterflashing is, IMHO, best used where pan flashing or bell
    flashing is not possible.  
    
    Hope you find an effective and economical solution.
    
                                                       

Some followup to the original discussion.

As suggested, I got three masons to look at the problem.  Of course,
they offered different opinions:

Mason #1: a young guy, after looking at the problem, said "you need
	a roofer to fix the flashings

Mason #2: wearing clothes with company label and claiming to be the
	designated mason for "This Old House", recommended
	a) remove the current half-rusted cap and put in a big
	   stainless steel cap that is slightly bigger than the
	   cross-section of the chimney (like an umbrella): ~$500
	b) apply sealant to external portion of chimney: ~$250
	c) tighten up the flashing around the chimney: no additional charge
	stops short of giving a guarantee, but says the only other
	possibility for leaking again would be for water to travel
	down along some beams behind the ceiling.

Mason #3: an old-timer living in the neighborhood, will
	a) seal the external portion of chimney
	b) repair the mortar cap on top of the chimney which has
	   chipped a little bit around the edges
	c) tightening up the flashing
	d) help me clean the brick chimney inside the house (remove
	   the white stuff with Muriac (sp) acid)
	all for ~$650.  Will not give a guarantee.  When asked why
	not put up a S.S. cap, he said it will make starting
        the fireplace hard; he recommends just using a S.S. mesh
	at the flue openning to stop racoons getting into the chimney.

After talking with these masons and having gone up to the roof myself
three times, I learned the following:
1) there are some noticeable gaps between the chimney and roof;
   so I think get the flashing tight is important;
2) the bricks for my chimney the new "used" bricks, so they are not
   the extra porous old bricks;
3) there is no crack on the mortar cap, although the edge is a bit
   chipped
4) the current metal cap is half rusted, hence need replaced or
   removed sometime soon to prevent rust wash down the chimney to
   the roof.

My personal judgement is that the leak comes from a combination of
the loose flashing and the mason, probably more from the former
factor.  I am almost ready to go with Mason #2 at this point.  The
only reservations are:
- should I worry about not being able to start the fireplace?
- am I going to find someone who would give a guarantee if I shop
  around more?
I like to hear some comments on these.

For others who have had similar problem, a useful advise I got from
one of the masons is to get the insurance company to look at the
damage.  In my case, they refunded me the cost of painting the whole
ceiling and cleaning the bricks, which is actually higher than the
$500 deduction.

    
      I need to line two old brick chimneys.  One is used with a wood stove
    and the other with an oil/wood furnace.  Both are old.
      
      The choice is should a stainless steel liner be used or should a liner
    be poured (such as Superflue)?  What are the pros and cons of stainless
    verses poured?  Anyone have experience with this?
    
      One of my greatest concerns is long-term quality and long-term easy
    maintanence.   I have heard that stainless steel  looses its favorable
    stainless properties if exposed to high temperatures.  Alternately, I
    have heard that the poured liners can crumble and begin to break down.
    
      I am getting quotes from three businesses.
    
      All responses appreciated.
                                                                          

    Have you considered relining with flue tiles? I did to my 160 year old
    house. Worked fine.
    
    Marc H.

    
    Marc.  How did you seal the tiles together or get the
    aligment correct??   Like, let them down with a rope and
    hope for the best????
    
    re:  I would think the steel would be a good DIY project....
    The cement lined would seal everything up good and might
    last longer?   But I would be guessing on the price.  Wasnt
    there something in the file somewhere about the cost??
    
    JD

    RE: .25
    
    JD
    
    Well, in my case, one side of the chimney was removed about 5 feet.
    This was done in the attic and second floor (two story house). 
    With a side removed, the tiles could easily be aligned and cemented
    together by reaching into the chimney.
    
    Messy and lots of work....but...I like fireplaces!
    
    Marc H.

    Ah!  The old slide it in the side trick! A!!
    
    Sounds good..

    
    The S.S. will surely be less expensive. However, according to the 
    contractor who relined one of my flues with "THERMOCRETE"(tm), 
    a creosote fire with a good draft going up will get hot enough 
    to melt the S.S.  Please, no debates.  
    
    The thermocrete is poured in place, one piece, smooth, gives 
    an excellent draft and provides protection up to 6000 degrees F.
    
    For 34 feet of it, it cost me in the neighborhood of 3K.  It is
    easy to clean too.
    
    Fred
    

    
    I just had my chimney capped (two 12x12 flues): total was $180..
    The chimney guy also fixed some bent/leaky flashing and repaired
    some spots that the mortar had broken away (no charge).
    
    I thought the price was reasonable.
    
    Paul C 
    
    
    

    oops ... I forgot to mention that the caps are stainless steel.
    

    Can you tell me where you are located and who you had do this work?
    
    I need some chimney work done, fixing some loose morter and have been
    having a hard time finding someone who is willing to do such a small
    job.
    
    Judie
    
    

    
    
    I used CHI @ 1-800-367-6743.  
    
    I believe they are in Nashua.  I don't know how far they travel.
    
    Paul C
    

    I have a friend Karl Janhunan that recently rebuilt my chimney 
    from the roof up.  Before this he rebuilt my in-laws chimney 
    from the ground up.  My in-laws chimney has two flues and is 
    over two stories high.  Both came out very nice ! and were 
    completed in short order.  For big jobs Karl has his brother,
    and father (also masons) help him.  He lives in Gardner but I know
    he has traveled as far as Seabrook NH (don't know if he'll do that 
    all the time though) His phone number is 508-632-4939.
    
           Dean   

    
    Is it worth it to waterproof a chimney?  I am having some repair work
    done on my chimney & the company is recommending I also have them
    waterproof the outside to keep further erosion from happening to the
    bricks.  They said the stuff they use allows the chimney to "breathe",
    but will keep water from damaging the bricks.  It costs $1/square foot
    - estimtated around $100 for the entire chimney & is guaranteed for ten
    years.  I have never heard of this, but if it makes sense, I'd like to
    get it done.
    
    Thanks for any info,
    
    - Cindy

Yes, I've also had this recommended to me, though $1/sf is awfully
expensive!  You can do it yourself with a masonry sealer such as Thompson's
Water Seal.  However, if you're not comfortable on a ladder, it may pay
to have the repair firm do it for you.

				Steve

    
    
    	Hmmm...I just finished having a house built and wonder if it
    	would be good 'preventative maintenance' to seal the chimney.
    	Any opinions? 
    
    	John
    

I think it would be a good idea.

	Steve

    Thanks for the responses - I think I will have it done while they are
    doing the work.  I have enough painting to do already - I'll leave this
    job for the professionals!
    
    - Cindy

    
    Not REALLY a chimney cap problem... more a a chimney TOP pronlem. ;-}
    
    I have a contemporary house with a wood framed chimney that encloses
    the actual metal pipes. The very top of the chimney is a slightly 
    domed slab of what looks like mortar... through which the metal pipes
    pass.
                                     __
    	                      ___   /--\
                             /---\  |  |
                             |   |  |  |
    			  ________________	
             Mortar ->   /________________\
    	Wood Frame--->	|                  |
                |        ------------------
		|	 |		  |
                |        |                |
                v        |                |
    
    The mortar layer seems to be crumbling and allowing water to run down 
    the inside of the wood framed chimney, where it eventually leaks out
    where it is attached to the foundation (inside and out).
    
    I would like to replace most if not all of the "mortar slab" myself 
    and I was wondering what material I might use. Is there any problem 
    with using some patching concrete like Thorocrete?  Is there a reason
    that it seems to have been done with some crumbly form of mortar?
    
    								- Mac

    Hi All,
    
    Now I've had the chimney fire and cracked all my tiles.  I need to
    decide between Ahrens  poured and HomeSaver SS linings.  Anyone with
    experience with either specificly or with benifits of poured versus SS
    liners.
    
    Need to make the decision soon the house is cold and Mass Electric is
    making a bundle.
    
    Paul

    Speaking of Consolidated Dutchwest; does anyone out there own one of
    their stoves?  I have the Adirondack model and have been unable to use
    it with the doors open since I bought it.
    I've talked to their "engineers" but they could not tell me why the 
    stove smoked with the doors open.  I suspect the 6" flute has something
    to do with it.
    
                    Steve P.

    Ask in PORI::STOVES.
    
    			Steve

	New question on chimney liners

	I have a single flue chimney, with tile insert about 8" square.

	Currently I have an oil furnace tied into it.

	I would like to put a wood stove in the basement also, and would
	like to use the chimney (instead of exterior SS triple wall pipe).

	Q.  Are there any liners that are double flue to fit into an exisiting
		single flue? 

		I imagine something like this:

		---------
		|\	|		
		| \	|
		|  \	|
		|   \   | tie in furnace here
		|    \  |
		|     \ |
		|______\|
		
		  tie in 
		  stove here

		Anybody seen anything like this, or something to fit the bill?

	Thanks

	Bob

    *IF* the remaining cross-sectional area was still adequate for the
    oil burner, you could run a single-wall stainless steel flue for
    the stove up inside the existing flue, but that's a big IF.  I
    doubt the numbers would work out.
    

Depending on where you live (Massachusetts allows this for example), you can
tie a woodburning stove into the same flue as an existing oil furnace.  
It has to enter the flue x number of inches below the oil burner entrance
and I think the flue has to be big enough to support both.  We did it this 
past winter and were very satisfied.

PeterT

Any issues around increased risk of chimney fires with both heat sources?

> Any issues around increased risk of chimney fires with both heat sources?

	    If you burn (wood) properly and clean the chimney every year,
	there is very little to worry about.  Chimney fires start because
	creosote builds up from a wood stove that consistently burns too 
	cold.  Then one day the stove is run too hot; hot enough to ignite
	the creosote.
	    Questions about wood stoves could be directed to PORI::STOVES.

					Tim

  I also installed a wood stove using my oil burner flue this past winter.
The wood stove must tap into the flue at least 6 inches BELOW where the oil
burner taps into the flue.  And it MUST be an OIL burner...gas is out of the
question!

  One thing I did notice is that the wood stove would sort of flare up when
the oil burner kicked on due to the increased draft.  Not a big problem unless
you've already got the stove cookin' at high a temp. and the oil burner stays
on for a while.

  BTW - I'm in Northboro Mass.

  And have any installation properly inspected by the town!



                   Jim

    I'm not sure if this would fit better here or in 3512, which seems to
    be discussing caps which cover multiple flues, but...
    
    I've a chimney with two flues, using 8" x 13" and 8" x 8" flue tiles.
    The occasional smokey odor from the fireplace during wet periods was
    annoying, but recent incursions by the local fauna made screening or
    capping the chimney imperative.  So I went out and bought two chimney
    caps, of the appropriate dimensions.  Paid the premium for stainless
    steel because the flues are close enough that the abutting overhangs
    would probably have to be bent so they'd fit, which might easily crack
    an enameled finish (not to mention that the cheaper black ones weren't
    available in one of the sizes I needed).
    
    The way these caps work is that you position them on the top of the
    flue tile, and in the part that hangs over are 4 screws which you
    tighten against the side of the tile.  Quick and easy, done in 15
    minutes, nothing to it...
    
    My chimney has nothing for them to hang over, or to engage the screws.
    The tiles extend something like 2" or so above the topmost course of
    bricks;  the mason put a nice coat of mortar on them, sloping down from
    the very edge of the flue tiles.  So there's nothing to engage the
    screws of the commonly available (over the counter) chimney cap -- at
    least at a big local purveyor.
    
    So now I'm wondering what to do (besides returning the unsuitable
    goods).  Would anyone have seen any kind of cap which would be designed
    to slip into a flue?  Would the best thing to do be to have a cap
    custom-made to fit the entire chimney?  I suppose I could cut hardware
    cloth to go over the top and down several inches, and hold it in place
    with a wire running in the mortar joint, but that strikes me as asking
    for trouble when the snows come.
    
    Dick

Corriveau-Routhier INc in Nashua sells a hardware kit the goes inside
the flue tile.

Ross

    
    I bought a stainless chimney cap at Home Depot in Nashua which fit
    inside the flue pipe.  It wasn't quite as easy to install, but still
    went on fairly quickly.

    you could always make an angleiron bracket that fit into
    the flue and bolted to the inside of the cap if you
    couldnt find one......
    
    

    re my own question:
    
    Home Depot in Nashua had (as recently as 25 July) the kind which
    require something like 1.5" of exposed flue tile to bolt onto.
    
    But Somerville Lumber in Acton had the kind described by .32 (I think
    it was), with sturdy metal elements that push against the inside of the
    flue.  Had to work at getting it in, because it was meant to be used
    with tiles up to 9" x 9" O.D., but it didn't require anything more
    complicated than some squeezing and bending, and pounding with the palm
    of my hand.
    
    The overhang of the top covering is easily 1.5", and that's about the
    separation between the outsides of the two flues, so I hope none of the
    local fauna tries getting into the fireplace's flue...
    
    Dick

   Well, this seems to be the most likely place to ressurect this
   conversation..  
   
   [ And no, I am *not* willing to install an air shredder! ]

   I have a fireplace that I am not using.  I currently have a piece of
   plywood propped against the opening, held in place with some big
   boxes, but I'm planning on moving the boxes, and want to close off the
   fireplace with something a little more secure (and not as ugly
   looking).
   
   I want to use something that will be weather tight - I don't want too
   much heat drifting away this winter, and I've been noticing the smell
   of wet ashes lately.  Given the weather we've had lately, its probably
   nothing more than downdraft and moisture, but I still don't like it
   much.

   So... here's my task - I want something that I can secure to the front
   of the fireplace opening.  I am considering something simple and
   fairly cheap like plywood with some sort of wood trim to make it look
   nice.  I already know how I can secure this cover to the wall, so that
   part is not a problem.
   
   My biggest challenge, I think, is what to use for insulating material.
   The cover (plywood, or whatever) will be larger than the fireplace
   opening, of course.  I want something that I can put between the cover
   and the brick face of the fireplace to act as an air block.  
   
   I also want to make a "plug" for the fireplace opening - it will be
   the same size as the fireplace opening, several (maybe 6" or more)
   inches thick, and will be attached to the inside of the fireplace
   cover.  This, I believe, will do the following:
   
   o cover the fireplace opening in an atractive manner - keeping the
     kids out of the fireplace without using random plywood and big
     boxes.
   
   o create an air block sufficient to keep random fireplace odors out of
     the house.
   
   o insulate the fireplace opening itself to help cut down on heat loss
     for the winter.
   
   So... here are my questions..
   
   - Any suggestions for what material to use for the fireplace cover?
   
   - Any suggestions for what to use as an air block material, between
     the fireplace cover and the brick fireplace facing?
   
   - Any suggestions for what material to use as an insulating plug, to
     fit snugly into the fireplace opening, and to be attached to the
     inside of the fireplace cover?
   
   Thanks,
   
   - Tom

    	If you're going to use plyood to cover the hole, you could probably
    cut one (or more) solid pieces of styrofoam and attach it to the inside
    of the plywood.
    	
    	You may also want to consider using a silicone caulking to make a
    more air-tight seal between the cover and the brick on the fireplace.
    
    	One other thought. If you get the styrofoam, you may be able to cut
    a piece to fit at the top of the chimney (under your cap). This would
    help keep some of the cold air/moisture out in the first place.
    
    	Ray

   re: .17 - Ray,
   
   Thanks for the ideas... I have some more questions...

   - I was thinking a plywood cover because its solid, fairly
     inexpensive, and easy to work with.  Any other suggestions as to a
     material that would work as well?
   
   - Solid styrofoam sounds good - Is it possible to glue solid styrofoam
     to plywood (or anything else), or should I start thinking about some
     other was to keep it in place - maybe some sort of harness or strap?
   
   - Silicone caulking sounds like just the thing, but how hard is it to
     clean off of bricks?  While I want this cover to be solid, I'm not
     ready to permanently plug up the fireplace.  Is it possible to get
     some sort of (silicone?) "gasket" that can be cut large enough to
     fit around the opening of a fireplace?

   - Plugging the top of the chimney sounds like it would help... would I
     have to worry about moisture buildup inside the chimney if/when I
     plug up both ends?
   
   Thanks,
   
   - Tom

    
    I would use:
    
    o  Plywood sufficient to cover the opening
    
    o  styrofoam to fit into opening
    
    o  foam carpet padding
    
    o  onstruction adhesive
    
    Trim the styrofoam so that when it is lined on all sides with the
    foam padding, it will fit snuggly into the opening. Attach foam padding
    and plywood with construction adhesive; wrap foam padding slightly
    around back of styrofoam to facilitate force-fit. Then, you should be
    able to just shove it.
    
                     XXXXXXX
                     XXXXXXX <- brick
                    |XXXXXXX
                    |====. <- foam
                    |****
                    |**** <- styrofoam
          plywood ->|****
                    |****
                    |===='
                 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
    

    
   -> Solid styrofoam sounds good - Is it possible to glue solid styrofoam
    > to plywood (or anything else), or should I start thinking about some
    > other was to keep it in place - maybe some sort of harness or strap?
    
    Yes - liquid nails works well for this and does not attack the
    styrofoam.  Used it to glue EPS foam blocks to the back of my attic
    trapdoor.  How about if you cut the styrofoam slightly oversize so it
    will "press fit" into the opening, holding the board in place and
    sealing the airgaps?
    
    As an alternative, maybe you could tack vinyl weatherstripping to the
    rear of the plywood as a gasket - I saw this stuff on sale in HD, used
    for garage door weather seals. 
    
    
                            

I remember seeing in the list of products offerred for energy conservation
by MassSave, a product for stuffing up by the flue to avoid heat loss. I think
it was called a chimney pillow.   I don't recall if it said what it was
made of or how much it cost.

I also recall that it had some feature to ensure that it got removed prior
to lighting a fire.  

    	I've used the 100% silicone on brick before and was able to peel
    most of it off and wire brush off what was left. A clear silicone
    should do the trick, or you could go with the foam adhesive backed
    weather stripping too.
    
    	Ray

   Thanks, folks.  This is good input, and will give me a good place to
   plan from.
   
   - Tom
   

    
    I am looking to get alittle information about "real" fireplaces.  I
    would love to add a fieldstone fireplace to my living room.  I know
    that I need to start saving now so I can get one in a few years, maybe
    less.  -I have a full cellar, what needs to be done down there?
    	   -The fireplace would be on the tallest side of the house,
    	    how far above the peak does it have to be?
    	   -There's a huge oak tree about 15' directly across from where
            I want it, would that have to come down?
    	   -Are there actually people who could build a fieldstone fire-
            place? And do they supply the stones?
    
    I know these questions are very simplistic but I hope somebody can
    shed some light for me.			Sue

    There will need to be a foundation built for the fireplace and
    chimney, right down to ground level and probably a footing below
    ground.
    
    The top of the chimney has to be 3' above the peak, I think, but
    I'm not sure.
    
    Your best bet is probably to start looking around, now, to find a
    mason to build it and get their feedback on what needs to be done.
    You want to go to some pains to find somebody who is truly competent
    to build fireplaces.  "Anybody" can build a fireplace that looks
    good; it's a little harder to find somebody who can build a fireplace
    that works well.
    
    You might want to hunt up the book, "The Forgotten Art of Building
    a Good Fireplace," by Vrest Orton.  I think he's rather pompous
    and certainly no better than he thinks he is, and the book is *not*
    the final authority that he pretends it is, but it does have some
    good information in it.

	    A friend of mine had a house built a few years ago.  He wanted
	a fieldstone fireplace built but couldn't find any masons who would
	build it for him.  His house is in Fitchburg.

			Good Luck,

					Tim

    If you would like the name of a good mason who just rebuilt my chimney
    and put in a beautiful field stone fire place for my brother send me
    mail and I'll give you his name and number.  He will be able to give
    you a good estimate on what you are looking at.  This guy doesn't
    excellent work.
    
    Of course this is all assuming you are in Massachusetts.  This guy is
    located in Northboro, MA.
    
    Mark
    

    Ever since we had a chimney cap installed we can no longer leave both
    doors open to the woodstove.  Smoke starts coming into the house.
    
    I suspect the cap and was wondering if this was a common problem and
    if perhaps adjusting the height of the cap may correct the problem?
    
    thanks, Mark

    DUHHH...
    
                                                    This guy doesn't
    excellent work.                                              ^^^
    
    :-)
    
    ed

    haven't had a problem with mine, just capped it this year.
    I don't leave the doors open though.  I would guess if you
    had a marginal draft to start with capping could contribute
    to the problem.
    
        Dean

    
    	We've got a brand new house, and have had serious smoke problems
    	with the first two fires we tried to have.  The second fire 
    	set off the (hard-wired) smoke alarms, and we had to open 3 doors
    	to clear it out enough for them to shut off.
    
    	We had the builder over to discuss this, and he suggested that
    	a cap would help RESOLVE the smoke problem.  
    
    	.36 and .37 suggest it could make it worse. 
    
    	So, does anyone have suggestions ?  
    
    	Does anyone know what could be causing the problem, and how we
    	could resolve it ?  We know how to build fires; we had 2/week for
    	five winters in our old house without a single smoke incident.
    	We pre-warm the chimney with a lighted paper before starting the
    	fire, too.
    
    	Thanks in advance,
    	Karen
    

    A cap can help, but it depends on what the original problem is
    and what kind of cap you get.  How airtight is the house?  Does
    cracking a window help?
    
    				Steve

	Cracking a window seemed to help the first time.  The second
	time, we still set-off the alarms.

	There is a draft near the front door, but things seem relatively
	tight around the windows.

	Could the intake grate for the forced-hot-air system cause
	the smoke to be drawn into the house ?  It is in the smae
	room...

	Karen

 > 	Could the intake grate for the forced-hot-air system cause
 > 	the smoke to be drawn into the house ?  It is in the smae
 > 	room...
    
    I would see this as a real possibility, especially if your chimney
    has a weak draft. If there is more "suction" into the room than
    there is up the chimney, the smoke will follow the path of least
    resistance. Your options would seem to include covering up the
    intake grate while using the fireplace (not a guaranteed fix if the
    forced-air system has other intakes in the house and it's running)
    or improving the draft in the chimney (by using a cap -- which will
    generally only improve the draft sometimes, based on outside
    conditions) or reducing the diameter of the flue (if you've got a
    two-story 12x12" clay fireplace flue, for example, you've got a slow
    chimney).

It sounds to me like the suction of the fha is sufficient
to interfere with the chimney draft.  We have this problem
if the outside air intake is closed and the kitchen fan is 
running (venting air out) while we are trying to start a fire.

The solution is an outside air intake for the fireplace.  
It should be simple to install.  You cut a hole in the floor of 
the fireplace (towards the front), about the size of one brick,
and put a flip up lid thing on it (up is open,down is closed).  
Then you cut a hole in the side of the base of the chimney, 
and run pipe from there to the outside.

This improves the draft of the chimney, and fuels your fire
with cold outside air instead of warm inside air.

If the fireplace doesn't work, your builder should install 
this.

Here's a crude picture. The part below your fireplace is hollow.

	|	| chimney
	|	|
	|	|
	/	\
       /	 \ 
      |	          | fireplace
      |           |
      |---     ---- gap represents intake in floor of fireplace.
      |           |___________________________________________
      |	             pipe to outside, exiting house at sill
      |	          |---------------------------------------------
      |	          |
      |----basment floor, ash cleanout

	Well, the builder shimmied up onto the roof yesterday and
	installed a cap (pleasant surprise - he'd asked us to get
	buy one, and he'd install it).

	We'll try a small fire tonight, along with opening the 
	casement window beside the fireplace while we get it
	started.

	Thanks for the suggestions!

	Karen

I'm buying my first house.  

The inspector Paul found that the chimney wall was wet when he got to the
attic.  He said that the flashing needed to be adjusted.  

After Inspector Scot went up to the roof, he reported that the chimney needed
to be re-crowned because of cracks.

The sellers agreed to get someone to take a look at.  That's 2 weeks ago.  Last
night he claimed that he hasn't heard from the 2 places he called.

What do you think?  Can it be more than adjusting the flashing and re-crown the
chimney?  I need your more educated/knowledgeable guess before I sign the P&S,
which is supposed to be today.

Thanks.
Ming

    Ming:
    
    If the inspectors were of your own choice and you have confidence in
    their work, put wording in the P&S that the sale is contingent on the
    owner(s) successfully completing (to your satisfaction) the actions that 
    you want them to complete (be specific and reference the inspectors and 
    the date of their report).  If possible, state a date (be reasonable) and 
    add "time is of the essence".
    
    Many items listed in inspection reports are give and take on whether
    the buyer or sellers take on the chore (or do nothing).  The chimney is
    definitely something that you should get the seller to handle.  It's
    not a big job for them to contract out.  I'm guessing on your job, but
    it's probably $200-400.
    
    Also, ask your inspector if any of the brickwork needs repointing.  If
    so, have them specify that in their report.
    
    BT

    What does YOUR lawyer suggest as far as protecting you in the
    P&S agreement? Is there even the remote possibility that this 
    could cost A LOT OF MONEY to fix? 

    
      Sounds like a older house. I had a 1890 Victorian, The flashing
    around the chimney had to be replaced, and the caps on the chimney
    had to be re-pointed. The chimneys were high enough that they took
    off about a foot of the brick, and re-pointed the top. 
    
      Hopefully there's no cracks from the top of the chimney down to where
    it meets the house. Then they would have to take it down to the house
    level, and build it back up.
    
      Make sure the wood around or near where the chimney meets the house
    hasn't rotted from the water running down. May need to be replaced.
    
     and don't believe everything an inspector tells you.  The house I was
    buying had a slate roof, the vallys were leaking. I knew both those
    things. When I got the inspection report it saif th ASPHALT roof will
    last approximently 5 more years. I asked the inspector what he meant,
    he told me about shingles, then I asked him if he noticed when he
    climed on the roof that it was SLATE.
    
     I'd get you own brick person on the roof to look at the chimney, ask
    friends for references. You may have to pay someone to look at it and
    give a price. But, if you really want the house. It's a small price
    to pay to know what you might be getting in to.
    
    

Re:  166.474, .475 & .476

Thanks for the suggestions.

This problem is not mentioned on the P&S.  The sellers said the house was being
sold "AS IS".  I have no idea if this problem should be considered "AS IS" or
beyond.  Again, since the sellers had agreed that they'd get someone, I kind of 
let it go.  (I know, I know, I shouldn't have truested them.)

I made several phone calls this morning and managed to find 3 chimney places
interested in taking a look at it (at my expenses, of course.  2 of them asked
for $29; the 3rd one, $50.)  The broker, however, hasn't been able to reach the
sellers; so...
    
	> ask your inspector if any of the brickwork needs repointing.

The inspector did not mention anything about brickwork verbally or in writing.

Thanks.
Ming

    >being sold "AS IS".
    
    Excellent!  Now you can reduce the price by the estimated amount of
    repairs.  Write up a list of things that you feel are needed repairs
    and guesstimate the repair costs.
    
    Where is your lawyer?  Just because their lawyer is drawing up the
    agreement, don't let the seller call all the shots.
    
    Mark

>                       <<< Note 166.477 by POWDML::CHU >>>
>
>Re:  166.474, .475 & .476
>
>Thanks for the suggestions.
>
>This problem is not mentioned on the P&S.  The sellers said the house was being
>sold "AS IS".  I have no idea if this problem should be considered "AS IS" or
>beyond.  

There is no "beyond."
"As is" is usually intended to mean "in its current condition, regardless
of seriousness, urgency, or anything else."
You could have a 4' hole in the roof that leaks to the cellar, and if 
you bought the house "as is," you've bought yourself a house with 
an indoor swimming pool - no recourse.

Do YOU have a lawyer?  No, I don't mean are you paying your bank for THEIR
lawyer.  YOU should - nay, MUST - have a lawyer to help watch out for your
interests.  If you've already signed the P&S, it may be too late for a 
lawyer to help.  You've already agreed - in writing, via a contract -
to the terms and conditions of your sale.  There will be penalties
due to the seller from you if you back out or change your mind or try to 
change the deal for any reason not outlined in the P&S.

- tom]

OK, now, I'm back from the inspection.

Chimney Inspector A:
	1. flashing seal - $35
	2. waterproof - $250
	3. cap - $275

Chimney Inspector B:
	1. flashing seal - $75
	2. waterproof - $375
	3. cap - $168 for one flue and $128 for the other, or over $500 for
	   multiple flues.

Based on the water sign, both inspectors concluded that the water problem was
caused by the flashing.  (What a relief!  :-)  But, #2 and #3 need to get done
in the near future too.

Re:  166.479

> "As is" is usually intended to mean "in its current condition, regardless of
> seriousness, urgency, or anything else." ... you've bought yourself a house
> with an indoor swimming pool - no recourse.

Isn't "as is" wonderful?  I think all sellers should add that into their
contract.  :-)

I do have a lawyer ($350 for 3 hrs and $150/hr after that, btw).  I haven't
signed the P&S because I didn't feel comfortable with the chimney water
problem.

Thanks.
Ming

    Good work and you're getting some good advise from the others here.
    
    "As is" should be seen as a red flag.  The owners are signaling that
    you take all the risk of any existing conditions.  Is there anything
    else that may be lurking behind the walls or under the ground?  
    
    While a disclosure sheet "requires" the owners to state the condition of 
    the house as they know it, they may omit something important.  There
    may be nothing.  But it will be up to you, your attorney, and the court to 
    later determine if they intentionally meant to omit an expensive 
    preexisting condition.  "As is" can be used as a defense that any 
    liabilities of conditions (ie. roof/basement leaks, pests, bad water,
    septic condition, radon, electrical, etc.) were accepted by you, prior to 
    sale.
    
    Again, the advise of your attorney is crucial. 

	Houses, whether new or old, are large complex devices
designed, assembled, and maintained by many people, and affected
by many things (weather, building codes, etc.) I worry whenever
I hear of someone with an issue like this, because life as a 
homeowner is FULL of things like this.  If you don't feel that
those sort of things are the things you want to deal with, then
you'd be better off renting, not buying.

	It's just a fact about homeownership. There's no perfect
house (or perfect previous owners...) and all you as a buyer
can do is check for the big issues.  In my opinion, no government
laws regarding 'full disclosure' or warranties can possibly help,
because THINGS WILL HAPPEN.  Yes, sure, perhaps the previous owners
didn't tell you about that leak - perhaps they didn't know.  Even
if they told you absolutely everything they do know, by reviewing
their entire lives there ('there's a car that drives by every March
13th and blows the horn...watch for bad mosquitos in April...we once
had a bat in the attic...etc....) NEW, UNEXPECTED things will happen!
And perhaps there might be things that seemed 'wrong' to you that
they took for normal (traffic, neighbors, 'wildlife', leaks...)

	Oh, and everything costs more than you expected to fix.  If
you fix things yourself, there still seems to be a quantum effect - 
there's a minimum of $100 for anything.  If you pay others, triple
that.  First house for you?  Have you planned for buying a mower, rakes,
shovels, mailbox...a homeowner has to deal with much an apartment renter
never thinks of, and there's not a builder or previous owner to turn to.
It's now your responsibility, and whatever fate deals out, you deal with.
You also get the fun of deciding what to do - no landlord decisions.

	All you can really do is watch for the big stuff that they
might be aware of - like a future Walmart across the street, burial
ground, etc.  Even though present laws often claim it's deceitful not
to 'fully disclose', the sorts of things that might matter cannot 
possibly all be covered, and some are very tricky legally these days,
especially those regarding past crimes of neighbors...I can guarantee
you'll get more little stuff anyway, so problems like a little leak
now shouldn't be an issue.  You can always lower your bid price, but
then again they can always reject it, too.  Look at the big picture,
and see if you really like the whole house, current and future flaws
and all.  You've checked out this one properly, so you know it's not
out of line - it shouldn't be a deal breaker, because you WILL have
to deal with many similiar issues in the future.

>                       <<< Note 166.480 by POWDML::CHU >>>
>
>Re:  166.479
>
>> "As is" is usually intended to mean "in its current condition, regardless of
>> seriousness, urgency, or anything else." ... you've bought yourself a house
>> with an indoor swimming pool - no recourse.
>
>Isn't "as is" wonderful?  I think all sellers should add that into their
>contract.  :-)

They probably don't have to, it's probably implicit in any contract
that will be presented.  It's normally only the things that WON'T be given
or taken as "as is" that need to be itemized.  Home buying is "the next level"
by many measures.  You can't legally RENT a house without hot and cold
running water, but you can BUY one (or SELL one).

I'm glad to hear that you're more in control than the urgency of your
earlier replies seemed to indicate.

Good luck....

- tom]

    and be sure to specify conditions about any unknown underground oil
    tanks. maybe also require a statement about what condition the house IS
    in, because 'as is' can change over the few months between P&S and
    closing. Get a written statement describing as much as you can because
    you don't want to argue at closing about what 'as is' means if the
    house's condition changes. For example, if the second bedroom window
    has a crack now, say so. If it does not now but it does just before
    closing, their argument that 'as is' means just that. Insist on a 
    walk-through inspection a few hours before the closing. 
    
    A clause that says 'as is' can be a moving window of opportunity for
    the seller. Close that window as quickly as you can. 

Well, I closed my eyes (just kidding) and signed the P&S along with that big
deposit check yesterday afternoon.

Re:  Note 166.484

	> maybe also require a statement about what condition the house IS
	> in, because 'as is' can change over the few months between P&S and
	> closing. 

Ooops, it's too late now.  I signed the P&S yesterday.  I truly hope that "as
is" won't change too much in the next 3 months.

Thank you all so much for your quick response and good advice.  I knew I could
count on you!

Ming

along the lines of 166.24x

I had an addition put onto our house 8 years ago. At the time, the contractor used asphalt roofing cement to 
waterproof the chimney to the new roof. With periodic examinations and renewals, it has worked well.

We are not selling the house and the buyers inspector wants the
roof/chimney joint flashed.

1. Where does one get lead flashing?
2. Where does one get a bit to knock out the mortar between the bricks?
3. How deep does one cut into the mortar?
4. Does one hammer the flashing into the joint,or does one use mortar 
   to hold it?
5. Is this a job for a pro, or can a DIYer handle it (the roof doesn't
    have too steep of a pitch?

thanks

john

>    <<< Note 166.486 by 26031::ogodhcp-124-40-169.ogo.dec.com::Kalinowski >>>
>                          -< More flashing questions >-
>
>along the lines of 166.24x
>
>I had an addition put onto our house 8 years ago. At the time, the contractor
>used asphalt roofing cement to waterproof the chimney to the new roof. With
>periodic examinations and renewals, it has worked well. 
>
>We are not selling the house and the buyers inspector wants the
>roof/chimney joint flashed.

Congratulations, if this is the worst problem that the inspector could point
out, you have demonstrated that you have a very sound house and a very 
picky potential buyer (I'd bet that this is their first house).

Of course, the chimney should have been properly flashed when it was built,
but if it has caused no problems and isn't likely to in the near future,
I'd push back on the buyer and tell him/her that this is the kind of repair
that THEY should probably take responsibility for, since they will be living
in the house and would probably feel more confortable having a person of their
choice and who will answer to THEM if there's a problem with the repair.
You probably shouldn't have to accept a price reduction of more than 
a couple of hundred dollars to have them take on the work.
Seriously, you don't want the buyers coming after YOU if there's a substantial
leak in the first really heavy storm after the work is done and they move in.

If that doesn't work (and if it's their first house, it might not),
get a pro to do it, and get a statement that YOU will be absolved
of any problems that arise.  This is a situation where a "repair" can 
do more harm than good.

Your questions are all easily answered, but you didn't ask any questions 
about the need to remove the current asphalt or how to integrate the new
flashing into the existing roofing, which suggests that the job is more
complicated than you understand right now.


>1. Where does one get lead flashing?

Chimney and masonry supply store

>2. Where does one get a bit to knock out the mortar between the bricks?

You need a cold chisel and a small sledge hammer (3 pound?).

>3. How deep does one cut into the mortar?

About half the depth of the brick?

>4. Does one hammer the flashing into the joint,or does one use mortar 
>   to hold it?

Both - you clear out the mortar, fold the lead into the space, and repack
the mortar over the fold.

>5. Is this a job for a pro, or can a DIYer handle it (the roof doesn't
>    have too steep of a pitch?

It's a job for the new owner, but I've covered that.....

- tom]

Thanks Tom

   You got it. First time buyer, and yes all the faults are minor.  No 
need to rattle them to save a couple of bucks and jeopardize the 
sale. 

    Cutting loose the old shingles should be a breeze, as I already 
replaced a couple that looked worn prior to the inspection. I 
have spares to redo a section if need be.

     I will price a pro this week as time is getting short, but if need 
be, I now think I can handle this, I just wasn't sure what the 
tricks were, or where to get the materials. Now I do... 

    this topic just reminded me,,, as i'm looking for a place to purchase
    a chimney cap. NOT the type you purchase in Home Depot for just to
    cover one flue,,, but a custom size to cover the entire chimney.
    i know somthing like this wont be cheap, but thats why i'm looking for
    a supplier myself to keep the cost down and install it myself.
    
    i'm looking to deflect as much water off the top, and eventually the
    sides, of the chimney... i believe the masons that built it did not
    use a quality mortar mix,,, and i'm trying to prevent further
    damage/and or complete pointing or replacement of the chimney...
    (btw my house is only about 20 years old)...
    
    jim

    	You didn't say where you're located. If you happen to live near
    Manchester, NH, you might want to give Courveu Routhier (sp?) a try.
    Another thought is to look in the phone book under roofers. Many of
    them do their own sheet metal work. If you can take the measurements
    and draw up what you want, you could probably get someone to make it
    for you.
    
    	Ray

    
    A couple of things come to mind.
    
    1. A simple chimney top using plate steel and threaded rod.  Local steel 
       fab places are best bet.  A  rectangle of 1/16" or 1/8" steel plate 
       w/ 4 holes is fab'd.  Holes drilled into mortar cap and lead anchors 
       inserted.  Thread in rod and use threaded pipe nipples (6-9"?) for
       standoffs and nuts to hold the whole thing done.  Sounds like you'll
       need to oversize it, normally it only covers the opening of the flue
       plus an inch or two and it sounds like you want to protect the whole
       chimney top, mortar cap and all.  This is probably the cheapest 
       solution -- but its not a cure.  Only cure is to redo the brick
       work.
    
    2. clay tops such as http://www.bricknet.com/Superiortops.html.  But
       again the clay tops are mostly to deflect water from getting into
       the flue -- not to protect the exterior chimney brick/stone work.
    
    3. redo the brick work and have a colar around the top of the chimney
       added.  The brick colar should project out 1-2" and this will help
       keep the rest of the chimney drier but dripping water out away from
       the face.
    
    But all of the above will only reduce the amount of water getting to
    the face of the chimney in light rain where there is no wind.  Any wind
    or heavy rain and rain deflectors over the chimney just won't work very
    well.  Besides wind driven rain, you've get quite a bit of splashing
    off of the roof surface onto the chimney face.  This means that you may 
    be able to slow the progress of water damage -- but you won't be able 
    to eliminate it.
       

    	Just a thought, but would a masonary sealer help here (i.e. like
    Thompsons ) ? I suspect it will just delay the inevitable, but it might 
    delay it enough to make it worth while.
    
    	Ray

    >Would a sealer help 
    i had the same thought... if only to prevent the water from 
    penetrating the cement...they talk about it for driveways, so why not.
    
    anyone have any other thoughts ??
    
    re: others, thanks for the input.
    
    jim

Yes, applying masonry sealer to a chimney is a good idea.  But it's best to
use one which allows inner moisture to escape - something like Thompson's
Water Seal won't.

				Steve

|                               <<< Note 166.494 by QUARK::LIONEL "Free advice is worth every cent" >>>
|
|Yes, applying masonry sealer to a chimney is a good idea.  But it's best to
|use one which allows inner moisture to escape - something like Thompson's
|Water Seal won't.
|
|				Steve

Hmmm.  When we got our house inspected by <I'm drawing a blank on his name, but 
there are about a gazillion positive recommendations on him in this notes file>,
he specifically suggested Thompson's Water Seal for our brick chimney...

								-- Chuck Newman

    regarding   .491   option 1  
    
    	threaded rod + steel plate soon rust and stains chimney + roof
    making it very unattractive.  Parts should be made of material not
    subject to rusting.  

    
    Do any of the Chimney company's clean the ash dump?  I had this company
    in Maynard, MA and they told me they clean the dump, but when I dropped
    something down the dump and I went down to get it, it was plain to see
    that the dump has NEVER been cleaned?
    
    louisa

re .488

     after the many recommendations for the Complete Sweep in 
Dunstable, I had Mike take a look at flashing the chimney,  and 
in the end do the work the following week..
For $135 it wasn't worth my aggrevation.  The work came out 
excellant.