Conference napalm::musclecars

    Sam,  
    
    	I've heard that that vet of yours is a 'turtle'!!!!!!
    
    
    Why don't you get a real one???
    
    many ;^)
    
    
    chet white

    Ok, how about a race with the tittle on the line.
    
    Winner takes both cars...
    
    Sam.
    

    Sam,
    
    The L.A.P.D is still looking for you and that Chevette that terrorized
    Culver city for so long.
    
    Dave
    
    PS(What the heck is a tittle? you do mean title correct? or is that a
    female thing?)
    
    

    Sam Sam Sam...........
    
    	Sounds like a plan!   But I have a couple reservations.
    
    FIRST!  Is the race from start to top end?
            I know I can get to My top end Faster than you can get to yours
    
    SECOND! I don't think I could afford the insurance for an 89 Vet.
    
    P.S. I have a '68 350/four speed with a crane cam, Eddlebrock torquer,
         Mallory unilite and 50KV coil, 356 gears in the rear and a holly
    	 aluminum four barrel with Headers.........
    
    NO POWER ANYTHING EXCEPT ENGINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   60 - 130 in about 4
    seconds.
    
    Lets meet and discuss this.  I normally would not think about a
    late model vette,  but for FREE, Id consider it!
    
    Many ;^)
    
    chet

    Ok Chet,
    
    First we have to sign papers with my (and - if you have one) attorney,
    title release forms etc...
    
    This is not a drag race but a road race.
    
    Sounds good....
    
    I'm on vacation but will be back next week.
    
    Sam

    Hey Meuse,
    
    Tittle means something you don't have....like power in
    that white thing of yours that even Regina could leave
    in the dust.
    
    Sam

    Sam Sam Sam........
    
    
    	EVERYBODY knows that a new vette can out manuver an old vet.......
    
    They just can't go as fast 0 to Max in a Straight line!
    
    I'd be as foolish to 'road race' you, as you'd be to Drag race me!
    
    Lets just have a beer and talk VETTES!!!!!!!
    
    I undertstand you work across the highway from Where I live.
    
    We should get together sometime!
    
    later,
    
    chet
    
    
    
    p.s. Have an EXCELLENT VACATION!
    

Well, boys, now that all chests have been pounded black and blue, what say
you two dash up to Epping and see if that '68 is so all-fired fast?

I'll buy the cokes (no beers at Epping), and mix in if you'll let me. I
know a couple of other guys with Mustangs and such would enjoy it, too.

Or maybe you'd rather just eat up disk space? :-)

Bruce

    Hi,,
    Yup... while back , I thought the newer plastic was slow... I drove a
    few and was impressed with the car, but not the speed... Until I came
    up against a couple at the strip... My 76 wasn't stock at the time.
    The 84 I ran was a couple tenths faster. The 86 almost a full second.
    The newer vettes just don't make as much noise. Because they are so 
    smooth and quiet it's deceiving.... 
    	I had to do quite a bit of work to get mine to run with those
    guys... Now I'm about 7 tenths quicker... Looks bone stock at first
    glance...
    	I've also driven a 90 with a 6 speed. Never seen one that new
    drag yet though. The 6 speed is very impressive... The new ones
    are just very refined, impressive performing, great, world class
    cars...
    	In the most fun I've ever had in a vette (while driving) catagory
    the 68 big block I just drove, wins hands down... This 68 has a 472
    cube fire breathing monster motor in it, with a 4 speed. It turns
    12.8's in the quarter, with horrible traction problems. With slicks
    this monster would be in the low low 12's or maby into the 11's.
    All at the 6000 foot altitude we're at... That 68 was just plain 
    rude, crude , fun... It's for sale too....
    
    
    Anyway, the moral to my bablings is , that I will never again bad mouth
    the 84 on vettes. I've seen what they can do, and was humble for at
    least 5 min afterwards...  (-:
    
    
    					Brian...

    > the 68 big block I just drove, wins hands down... This 68 has a 472
    >cube fire breathing monster motor in it, with a 4 speed. It turns
  
    I assume that was a typo and should have been 427...or did someone
    drop a Caddy engine in it?!?...probably still be mean as hell!
    
    /tb/

    nope,,, No typo.... It's a bored out 454... Just a guess .060 over ???
    
    					Brian...

    ....I should know better...my SB is a 357!
    
    /tb/
    

    
    Last Saturday evening in Bedford, N.H. I had
    the privilege of watching a Big Block Mid-year
    roadster run through the gears at or close to WOT.  
    With those bellowing side exhausts WHAT A SOUND!  Made 
    my knees weak.
    
    Tom

June 8th is Corvette Day at New England Dragway. There'll be a show & shine,
a Vette Eliminations in the P.M., and the usual all-day test session, open
to all makes of cars.

Generally, it's $25 to get in if you are testing that day, and $10 if you
just want to watch. This may be a great opportunity for the First Annual
Ceballos & White Duel In The Sun, or other such mix-'em-ups. I personally
would be interested in dueling with a stock early big-block, although I know
I might need some rope to tie my doors back on :-).

In any event, it would be nice to see some DECvettes(tm) up there, other
than just Don Lind and myself.

Bruce

    Hi Guys,
    
    I'll be there.  As far as the Ceballos & White Duel in the sun, I am
    a Cannonboller therefore I race in the road - so if anybody wants to
    race me the startup line will be on Rte 3/93 or 495 and the finish
    line will be at the New England Dragway or at the State Police it
    all depends who gets to who first.
    
    Looking forward to see some of those Digital Vettes.
    
    Sam

...........so it'll be the First Annual Ceballos & White *Unofficial*
Duel In The Sun :-).

Or are you saying you won't be bothered with even turning a wheel in
the 1/4th mile?

I'll tell you right now, your car is *fast*. There is no combination
I know of since the TPI Vettes came out that doesn't run well in the
quarter. If yours has a problem, we can probably diagnose it on the spot.
Aren't you just a teensy bit curious as to how well your car runs?

What is your combo, anyway?

Bruce

    
    	This sounds like fun !!!  I can't wait to see the action.
    I will be Showing my Vette that day, I think if I were to drive
    all the way from Northern VT., and dragged it ...there's probably
    a gaurd-rail with my name on it  :^{   
    
    	I'll be showing a yellow '80/L82 with VT plates 80VET. If you
    have been to many of the Vette shows, you've seen it. Stop by and
    introduce yourself, I can blah blah blah about Vette's forever...
    
    SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY, UNDER THE STARS, it' Corvette day at
    New England Dragway, see Monster Masher blah blah rip up the 1/4
    mile in negative time, in reverse....... Be there !!!
    
    
    							,Franko
    							 80VET

    What is my combo .... it is fast.
    
    I will think about going for the 1/4 mile.  I will be there just
    not showing what is under the hood.
    
    Sam

Bring money :-).

Bruce

    Here is a question for you vette people.I am looking at a vette
    currently.It is my first venture into a car of this magnitude 
    It is a 1968 t top 427 origanal  ever green original now red
    It now has l 89 435 hp motor it is all restored 336 posi 4 spd
    my question is ,is it worth  the asking price of 22,500.Any help
    would be appricated. It is a lot of $$$$ to get taken on.
    

    Hi,,,
    
    Unless it is in perfect shape, 22K is high for the Colorado area...
    68 big blocks are averaging around 12-14K here... A guy here just
    sold his matching numbers 68 BB at an auction in Kansas for 7800..
    He was real desparate to sell though, and told the sellers take
    whatever you can... The only other 68 here, is for sale for 13.5
    non matching numbers,,, but a real real strong running car...
    It hasn't sold yet though... Had a lot of lookers, but no takers...
    	I don't know where you are looking, but both coasts do seem
    to be higher than here...	
    				Brian...

    Howdy,

    My dream is to have a '69 big block 'vette. I realize that there can be 
    large disparities in 'vette prices across the country. My question is 
    how much more is a 'vette worth because it has matching numbers. Please 
    realize that I'm thinking in terms of percentages, not actual dollars.

    Thanks,
    Frank M.

>    My dream is to have a '69 big block 'vette. I realize that there can be 
>    large disparities in 'vette prices across the country. My question is 
>     how much more is a 'vette worth because it has matching numbers. Please >
>    realize that I'm thinking in terms of percentages, not actual dollars.


	Matching numbers are very important to vette value . 22k for 
	a 68 with the wrong motor is way high. In addition, if the car
	doesn't have the original engine, the car must have some paperwork
	proving that it was an original bigblock car. In general the 
	worth of a vette greatly enhanced by having original paperwork.

        You can take 4 or 5 K off the price for having the wrong color too.


			- A.J. 

    A.J.
    
    Thanks for the response. One other quick question. I have heard of the 
    "Black book" mentioned in pricing of vettes. Can you shed any light as
    to where a copy of this little jewel can be had?
    
    Thanks,
    f.m.

The "Corvette Black Book" gives production numbers, codes etc for all
years of corvettes. It doesn't give values. If you are planning on
getting a vette I would suggest getting one. To get a good idea on
vette values buy a hemmings and deduct about 30%. This is what you
can expect to actually pay. You may even do better with the current
soft market. In the latest want-ad (I think) I saw an original 
427-390 68 coupe in nice shape for around 17K. 

					- A.J.

    
    Thanks A.J. I'll pick up a copy. My wife insists that I finish my '36
    Chevy before starting another project. :-(
    
    f.m.

    TAHNKS Guys!
     The vette mentioned in note .20 was at Mass ave motors in fitchburg
    Ma. It was recently sold.For 22k.Iwould imagine you pay more from a
    corvette dealer than anywhere else .where would you look besides
    hemmings and a want ad these dealers seem to find all the vettes cheap
    and make a BIG profit.I know The person who owns mass ave(not
    personally) I also Know 2 years ago the car had a 327 in it .Then he
    wanted 5500 for it  it was real rough white paint shot .needed complete 
    rebuild.It didnt start the day I went up and I offered 4000 for
    it he laughed and said he would restore it and get mid teens for it
    before he gave it away. A year later I saw this awsome red 427 on the
    lot .It happened to be the same vette .I looked a year earlier the 
    car was originally evergreen with a 390 horse 427.So come on guys where
    do they come from .Are they really cheaper down south .Is that where
    they come from .So enough rambling i'm frustrated .Let me in on the
    secret.
        

>     The vette mentioned in note .20 was at Mass ave motors in fitchburg
>    Ma. It was recently sold.For 22k.Iwould imagine you pay more from a

>    personally) I also Know 2 years ago the car had a 327 in it .Then he
>    wanted 5500 for it  it was real rough white paint shot .needed complete 


	1. An original (nice) with documentation 68 427/390 coupe may
	   be worth 22k.

	2. A original (nice) without documentation 68 427/390 coupe is
	   worth less. (assuming motor stamp matches).

	3. A nice 68 427/390 that used to have a 327 in it but now has
	   has a correclty dated 427 and comes with documentation that
	   it was an original 427 car is probably worth around 18k +-.
	   or less in the soft market.

	4. A 68 327 coupe that someone is passing off as a 427/390 is
	   only worth 22K to someone that is stupid enough to buy it.


				- A.J.
				        

      There is a brand new notesfile that caters to Corvettes only.
    
    It is located on 5onflr::corvette
    
    Rich

    I just added the new conference on Corvettes.
    
    When I opened it, I got the message "No such node"....
    
    Has anyone been in that new conference yet ? (I'm thinking my
    N/W guys need to add the node name..)
    
    Jim Stevens, hopefully to soon own a 1968 BB convertable..
    
    

    node 5onflr is in the node registration database, but I'm unable
    to connect.  Its address is 62.263 or 63751 (computed).  You 
    should have been able to figure all that out, Jim.  Losing your
    technical skills, eh  :^)
    
    A BB Corvette in Maine.  A great winter car.  You can always tow
    it with your snowmobile.  Going through a mid-age crisis, Jim?
    Chuckle, chuckle....
    
    Ken P.

Hey Ken you old hound dog, how ya doin ?

Actually, in the winter, I'm going to put the Vette engine
in my snowmobile. Talk about a screamer!!!!!

Mid life crisis !! Naw, did that 10 years ago....My step son
just graduated college and now I have some extra money
to spend...Why not a Corvette !?!?!?!

I'll have to get Bill Morgan to add that node to our database.
I'm no longer in IM, thank god, so I have very little pull 
with the technical wizards..

Thanks..

Jim

      Node 5ONFLR is not area 62 anymore.  The correct address is 9.142.
    
    Rich

    Jim,
    
    In the meantime, you can 
    
    ADD ENT 9358::CORVETTE
    
    and it should work.
    
    Ken P.

Well, last night I took the car out for a ride...

Bottom line is real fast, real tight, overpriced, IMHO.

The engine is from a 68 Camaro, 396 bored out to a 402. Full race
cam, alluminum heads, headers, BIG Holley 4 barrell, new Muncie
4 speed trans, new rear end gears (although the number elude me at
the moment), new heavy duty clutch ( I needed both legs to push it
in). He said the engine is pushing close to 400 HP. The original 
engine was a 427, long gone. 

The car has MANY new parts, all with reciepts and real good documentation.
Interior is ok. New carpets, passengers seat needs some work (perhaps
all new leather would be nice). I thought there was an excessive amount
of heat coming through the console. Is that a problem with BB's ?? That's
what the guy told me anyway.

The convertable top is fairly new (4 years ago). It does not mount
flush with the body. There is an inch gap 3/4 of the way around. 

Paint is 8 years old. There are 3 or 4 good size cracks. So a paint job
within the next year or so is required (about $3K I'm told).

The price is $13,900 firm. 

I'm not going to buy it.

Now I'm looking at an 81 Clifornia Vette....

Jim

    ....was '81 a year when Califorinia 'vettes had 305's installed?
    
    I know there was a year or two in that time frame that it happened...
    either for pulution or CAFE or sump'in like that...
    
    /tb/

    According to the Corvette Black Book, 1980 was the only year the
    305 was installed in the California vette's . Engine suffix will
    be ZCA. 1981 went back to the 350, engine suffix's ZDA (4spd),
    ZDD (auto), ZDB (auto/Calif), ZDC (4sp/Calif).

Just as a point of reference, check the auction results in this
months cars and parts. I believe the results mention 68 427/390
condition 2/3 original block selling for 14K. I really recommend
against purchasing a non-matching car unless you are stealing it.
Be careful with the smog cars too.

				- A.j.

    
    	Jim,
    
    		Although your office is only a couple of minutes
    	walk AND we share a business partnership I never see you.
    	Was that the Vette going down into town at the body shop?
    	If so it looked real good from the street. I also heard
    	of another original big-block that is 'saleable' because
    	of owner financial woes.  It is original and although it
    	too needs body stuff done the 427 is recently redone and
    	is quoted by owner as in excess of 500 hp... new brakes,
    	transmission rebuild, clutch, etc......  price for non-
    	pushy type buyers is rumored to be in the low 10's.  For
    	pushy ones I have from a source that 9+ is not unthinkable.
    
    	Bryan

    I have a few questions of all you corvette enthusiasts!
    
    Does anyone have a corvette book describing just how to replace
    the rear wheel bearings?
    
    Last time I was 'there' we removed the large bolt on the inside of the
    spindle, but could not for the life of me take the spindle off!
    
    Is there a snap ring in there somewhere? or do I really need an axle
    puller?
    
    Anyone with experience they'd like to share?
    
    much appreciated!
    
    chet

    Hello Corvette fans,
      Just wanted to let you know that if your looking for some 
    Vettes. There's a place in Baldwinville Ma. (just outside Gardner).
    called Bill's Used Cars... He is an avid colector of Vettes and others
    alike.. The only problem is there BIG MONEY!!! For instance
    1971 LT1 w/ 10k, paint, int, all original..  $$30-40k
    1977 - 78 Vettes one w/ 6.miles other w/10. miles all original
     ( we're talking sparkplugs, filters, everything!!!!
    He also has a colletion of other Early Muscle.. 
      If you got the money he's got the car!!!
    
       Mike...
    

Article 30366 of rec.autos.tech:
Path: e2big.mko.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!nucsrl!ddsw1!neptune!craig
From: [email protected] (Craig Donath)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.tech
Subject: Re: CORVETTES  "70 and older
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 13 Aug 91 15:25:11 GMT
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
Reply-To: [email protected] (Craig Donath)
Organization: McDonalds Corp., Oak Brook, IL
Lines: 80

In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (copy request account) writes:
>
>          Ok all you 'vette and Chevy fans I can
>      use your help.I have a freind who is looking
>      to buy a older corvette.His just now starting
>      to shop around,and is very curious as to what
>      years came with what options,specificly production
>      figures,motors&HP,prices ect... 
>
> 
Gee, this kind of info could tie up net bandwidth for months. I'd suggest
picking up one of the buyer's guides available (thru the mail order car
book places, or any Chevy meet). For a nutshell listing of production stuff:

YEAR		CONVERT		COUPE		TOTAL

1953		300				300
1954		3640				3640
1955		700				700
1956		3467				3467
1957		6339				6339
1958		9168				9168
1959		9670				9670
1960		10,261				10,261
1961		10,939				10,939
1962		14,531				14,531
1963		10,919		10,594		21,513
1964		13,925		8,304		22,229
1965		15,376		8,186		23,562
1966		17,762		9,958		27,720
1967		14,436		8,504		22,940
1968		18,630		9,936		28,566
1969		16,633		22,129		38,762
1970		6,648		10,668		17,316
1971		7,121		14,680		21,801
1972		6,508		20,496		27,004


I have included the figures thru '72 as these cars are the ones that are
generally considered "collector" cars in the hobby. A few things to note
in general:

Engines: All '53, '54, and most '55s are inline sixes with automatic trans.
         A handful of '55s are 265 CID V8s, some with 3-speed manual trans.
         All '56s are 265 CID V8s with single or dual quads. (auto or 3sp).
         All '57-'61s are 283 CID V8s with 1X4, 2X4, or fuel injection. HP
           range on the '57-'61 was from 220 to 315 (depends on year). The
           trans may be auto, 3sp, or 4sp (after mid '57).
         All '62-'64s are 327 CID V8s. This was also the base engine thru
           1969. I think the 327 was only offered with (various) single
           quads or fuel injection (thru 1965). HP range on these cars was
           250 in base form to 375 with solid lifters and FI in 1965. Trans
           options were still 2sp auto, 3sp, or 4sp.
         The 396 CID/425 HP big block was available in 1965. This is a HOT
           car and in much demand.
         The 427 CID big block became available in 1966 as a 390 HP or 425 HP
           option. The 427/425 is one of the wildest rides available.
         Starting in '67, the 427 got LOTS of options including 390, 400, 430,
           and 435 HP. The "tri-power" 435 is getting lots of attention from
           collectors. Don't even look for an "L-88" (but if you find one in
           a barn CALL ME QUICK!).
         After a late start on 1970 production, the 350 CID V8 became standard
           with the 454 CID V8 available in configurations similar to the 
           earlier 427s. Also available was a HOT solid-lifter 350 "LT-1"
           that is much in demand.

Other stuff:
         While the '56-'62 models were all converts, a hard top was available
           and will add up to $1500 to the purchase price.
         While the convert was more popular than the coupe thru 1968, the 
           opposite was true in later years. '70-'72 converts are desireable,
           especially with a big block or LT-1.
         Fuel injection on ANY '57-'65 is rare and nifty. Once set up, these
           units are reliable and fast. Repair parts are available ($$$).

There is too much to tell here. Prices vary WIDELY. If you are looking for 
a DRIVER, look for something '68 or newer and you should be able to find
something affordable that will probably never lose value. Good Luck!

Craig Donath

    
    
    A year and half from the last entry about corvettes.
    
    time don't wait.
    
    Dave 

    
    
    
    
    	I can't believe how the cost of mid-seventies Corvettes have
    	dropped.  I've seen several for around the 6K price range.
    	It seems once they hit '78 they picked up with the new bubble
    	rear window.  I wonder if they did that specifically because
    	sales may have dropped?  Do you think they would be worth 
    	buying and holding onto for a few years.?  I had a '77 and
    	*loved* it.
    
    	Just food for thought....
    
    	/ab
           

    
    
    prices of vettes have dropped across the board
    the low compression 70's and 84,85,85...
    corvettes can be had for a song...
    
    dave

    "O solo mio..."
    
    ed

    
    
    	I've been considering purchasing a mid 70's Vette.  The prices are
    	so low now I believe I can get the best deal for the money.  One
    	in particular catches my eye.
    
    	'77 Corvette, 80K miles, Black w/red interior, new exhaust,
    	radiator, tires, calpiers, ect.  Repainted 2 yrs ago. They
    	are asking $6500.  They guy said it was stripped prior to 
    	painting which is a must.  It is "Loaded" with all the toys.
    	I had a '77 and all the recent parts listed were the ones *I*
    	had to replace on mine.
    
    	What to you folks think, (Bob Lamothe excluded of course)
    

    Two questions, who is "they" and do the numbers match?
    Wayne

    Sounds like an average driver.  Don't think the "numbers" have much
    to play on it, other than to prove it's the origonal engine (i.e.
    origonal engine got trashed/car beaten).
    
    Haven't priced Corvettes lately.  How does the price compare to
    others for sale in your area?
    
    I looked into a 1970 454 vette, ya, that's what I'd like to buy.
    $25K *OUCH* maybe (much) later.  IMHO corvettes after '73 or so are
    "just cars".  
    
    Regards,
    
    MadMike

    
     
    	>>Two questions, who is "they" and do the numbers match?
       
    	"They" should be "The", typo.  Good question on the numbers.
        That may not be an issue now as the demand for these particular
    	models is not great, but I think the value of these will go
    	up in the future, similar to the second generation Camaros and
    	then matching numbers will be a price factor.
    
    	>>Haven't priced Corvettes lately.  How does the price compare to
        >>others for sale in your area?
        
    	That is the average price for that particular year.
    
    
        >>I looked into a 1970 454 vette, ya, that's what I'd like to buy.
        >>$25K *OUCH* maybe (much) later. 
    
    	I'd *love* to have one of those also, but I could never afford
    	something that expensive.
    
    	>>IMHO corvettes after '73 or so are "just cars".
    
    	I hear where you are coming from, but don't agree.  No Corvette is
    	"just a car".  My reasoning for purchasing this particular model is
    	that first of all it is relatively inexpensive.  I can work on it
    	myself.  It will give a lot of these newer cars a run for their
        money. It is a two seater sports car.  There are a lot of bolt-on
    	accessories available.  Most parts are readily available.  It's made 
    	in America.  It is a fun car to drive.  I'm going to check it out
        this weekend.   
    
    
    
    

    In your original note you used the word "they" as in whomever was
    trying to sell you the car.  In N.H. there are some good
    Corvette/collector car dealers and then there are others.  That's 
    what I meant.
    I also agree with you that a Corvette is a Corvette.  Even if it's a
    mid-seventies small block, it's still going to be worth more in ten
    years than most other mid-seventies cars.  Matching numbers in
    Corvettes is worth alot even if it is only a "daily driver".
    
    Fyi, back in 1975 when I was just getting out of college, my roomate
    offered me his 1964 Corvette Roadster for $1200 because the bank was
    about to reposses it.  Back then it was nothing but a "daily driver".
    Look what it would sell for now.  
    Wayne

Isn't there a Corvette Center type place in Leominster?  if you're in Northern
Mass., it might be worth calling/visiting them...



steve

    
    	I have two lined up for the weekend so far, a '79 L82 and a '77.
    	There is also a '78 Silver Anniversary I want to call about, two
    	tone silver.....  What do the L82 and L48 refer to?
    

    	Steve, I have already been pre approved from DCU and would like to avoid
    	a dealer type situation.  I believe I could get the best deal from
    	a private party.  Thanks for the suggestion though...

	Wayne, I bet your kicking yourself big time for not buying that
	'64!  Hindsight is 20/20.  I passed up a '69 Firebird convertible 
	for $900. in 1978.  It was in nice shape too.
    
    	Speaking of DCU, I was going to get a personal loan at 14.5%
    	because I didn't think this car would classify as a classic nor
    	would it meet the criteria of a standard car loan, having to be
    	paid off by the time it is ten years old.  They called me later
    	and told me that if I gave *them* the title they would give me
    	an 11.5% rate for up to five years!  Talk about creative financing.
    	God I love that place.........
    
    

    
    Re .53
    
    L-82 refers to the top-line Corvette 350, which was a smogger derivative
    of the LT-1.  About 220 SAE Net HP.
    
    L-48 is the garden variety 350, rated at 180 HP or so.  Not so
    desireable obviously as the L-82
    
    To the vette fancier, these numbers are essential.  If you are even
    considering a Corvette -- these numbers should roll off your tongue
    with ease...it's important!
    
    Tom	

    
    Thanks Tom, I'll keep that in mind.  I was told that the L-48 was more
    of a passenger car motor but was interested in the specifics.
    
    /andy
    

>    	Steve, I have already been pre approved from DCU and would like to avoid
>    	a dealer type situation.  I believe I could get the best deal from
>    	a private party.  Thanks for the suggestion though...

	Heck, make up a good story, call them, and see what they'd buy or 
sell <insert your Corvette here> for.

	I'd think you'd do better in a private sale, but having a Corvette-only
shop verify prices/options wouldn't be a dumb thing to do.  Costs nothing...


steve

    Re: prior note about Corvette center in Leominster.  
    
    I don't know of a Corvette place in Leominster.  There was a Camaro
    place near Whalom Park in Lunenberg and there is Mass Motors in
    Lunenberg which deals in alot of interesting things, not just
    Corvettes.  The places I was referring to are in Manchester, NH.
    
    Do I kick myself for not buying the '64 Vette? Sure.  Instead, the same
    week I plunked down $3500 for a used '74 Toyota Celica GT which a year
    later I only got $1000 for as a trade in.  Talk about bad investing of
    one's money!
    
    Wayne

    
    
    
    Well I bought it.  Looked at five of them this weekend.  I couldn't
    believe some of the pieces of crap these people were trying to sell
    for big bucks.
    
    The one I purchased is a 1980.  It has 50K miles!!  And it *is*
    original.  It is silver with burgondy interior, loaded.   Aluminum
    wheels, completely stock except for the stereo.
    
    $5800.00  SOLD!!!!   Needless to day I'm pleased....
    
    /andy
    
    
    
    
    
    

   	Andy, glad to hear you are happy..congratulations! I'm planning to
   take the plunge as well and I'm looking for a mid-year (63-67) roadster
   that is in excellent condition with originality/matching numbers as an
   important but secondary criteria. 
	
   	If anyone knows of one that they would recommend, let me know. I'm
   using word of mouth and looking at the common sources such as HMN, Want
   Add, Corvette/Chevy trader etc.

   Steve

    
       Yes , I think it's on node
    
         KeyChain::Junk
    
       :')
    
    

       I was moderator of the Corvette notesfile, but I shut it
    down due to lack of interest.  I still have a copy of the conference,
    so if there is sufficient interest I can put it back on line.
    
    Rich

    
    
    RE: .62
    
    
    	Hey Bob, why don't you go back to the JRKOFF::COMNTS file.
    
    	:-)
    
    

    
    
    	RE: .63
    
    	Hi Rich,
    
    	I would like to see the file myself but from the lack of respones
    	in this note I tend to doubt it will be greatly used.  If there is an
    	archived version I'd like to gain access to it.
    
    	I'm sure there is a wealth of information I could use in there.
    
    	Rgds,
    
    	/andy
    
    
    
    

>    	I'm sure there is a wealth of information I could use in there.

You mean like how to determine if the odometer on the car you just bought had
been rolled back?  ;-)

good day,
Matt

    
    
    Matt, what was the last thing you rolled?
    
    /b

    I HAVE SOME BUCKET SEATS THAT ARE IN GOOD CONDITION FOR A 68 TO 73
    CORVETTE. THE COLOR IS TAN. 
    IF YOU ARE INTERESTED SEND ME A MESSAGE.
    MPGS::BUJA
    
    

    Hello
     I have a problem with my rearend. The pasenger side where the
    driveshaft goes to the rearend pulls out, On the other side it
    doesnt pull out, I hope  this is some type of clip inside the 
    rearend, but everything on this car that needs fixing seems to
    be big bucks....Any ideas on how bad this will be to fix, and what
    is the best way to fix it......Any help at all, is welcomed...
    
                                                      J.E.E.
    

    Hello Again
     I forgot, My car is a 69 corvette  with the big block engine......
                                                         
    Re: 15.69                                        J.E.E.
    

    
    Would anyone know of a Central Mass. store, Auto-Flea Market Vendor or
    catalog that sells aftermarket replacement decals?  I need to replace
    the Aircleaner decal for a '75 L82.
    
    -John	DCSJCR::JOHN

I recently bought a 67 big block roadster to restore. I'm interested in getting
in touch with folks that (are doing / have done) this.

I'm also looking for sources for parts. The car hit a pole just behind the
drivers side wheel. It's pretty bent.

I could use a good parts car, hopefully hit in the rear, if anyone knows where
one might be. Or I could be a parts source for someone that needs rear stuff.

    
    
    Thanks to a message 'off line':
    
    Corvette Country Used Corvette Parts
    Boscowen, NH
    (603)796-2104 (Brian)
    
    New:
    
    Main Street Corvette Parts
    Grafton, Mass.
    (508)448-5070

    Can anyone give me a rough HP figure for the 72 vette I drive. The
    engine ID number does not exist. Where it should be, its blank. This
    was no problem for me as I was'nt looking for a matching number
    vehicle. Just a nice vette to bring home to England. 
           OK, the vehicle is bog standard apart from a set of headers, and
    is a California 72 with smog emmision 'stuff'. On the centre console is
    a plate stating compression ratio and torque figure, which is 365lb/ft.
    Can anyone identify this lump, assuming its original.
    
    Ta for any info........................Colin.

    L-65, 1971 350 TurboFire 245 hp @ 4800 Gross, 165 @ 4000 net.
    L-48, 1971 350 TurboFire, 270 @ 4800 gross, 210 @ 4400 net.
    LT-1, 1971 350 TurboFire, 330 @ 5600 gross, 275 @ 5600 net.
    
    There are 2 350's offered during 1972.  A 8.5:1 Compression ratio
    and a 9.0:1.  The 8.5 is rated at 270 HP and the 9.0 is rated at
    330 Gross.  1972 is the year the emissions systems came on the scene
    in a big way.
    
    You probably have the L-48 engine in your car.

    The comp ratio is 8.5:1 so going by your info its the L-48 pushing
    210HP @ 4400. Judging by your note I guess you are a Camaro fan, with
    big block power, good stuff. Ta for your help, no one this side of the
    Atlantic knows anything about yank motors.
    
    Later...........................Colin.

    Is there much difference in suspension/spring set ups between small and
    big block vettes. Is it a major job slotting a big block where a 350
    used to sit. Does the extra weight cause problems, is there any
    companies over there offering installation 'kits' for the swap. Wow,
    sorry about all the questions guys. But maybe a 454 under my hood could
    be the way to go, or even a 427, yes.
    
    Later..............................................Col.

>    Is there much difference in suspension/spring set ups between small and
>    big block vettes. 

I don't know the exact spring rates used in different chassis with different
engines but I'm sure the BB vettes will have a heavier spring.  This
would mainly be to tune the handling.  I have the origonal springs in my
Camaro.  The 454 caused it to dip just a little, not really noticable though.
I wouldn't worry about it unless your current springs are worn out.

>Is it a major job slotting a big block where a 350 used to sit. 
You are in a good position because the vette came with the BBC so you know 
it WILL FIT (if you use the correct accessories).  The motor mount location
is the same on a SBC and a BBC, just slap dat bitch in, and CAREFULLY close
the hood the first time.  If you want to install headers it's a TIGHT fit.

>Does the extra weight cause problems, is there any
>    companies over there offering installation 'kits' for the swap. 

No kit required.  *IF* you happen to get a BBC with aluminum heads, it'll
weigh almost the same as a SBC.  Other than that, drop it in and go.

>maybe a 454 under my hood could be the way to go, or even a 427, yes.
Sounds good to me.  ;^)    
                           
MadMike

    
    Col,
    
    If you get a used BB be sure to get all the accessory brackets. I am
    not sure if the Vette has different brackets but I suspect that they
    do. I can be a major pain and expense to finnish the installation with
    out the right brackets. I have a friend that has a '72 454 Vette and I
    will ask him what the scoop is.
    
    Don B
    
    PS Why not just drop in Chevy's new HO 510 Mark V!
    
    

    
      re: .78
    
     Col,
    
    I can give you first hand info. on the swap of a BB for a SB.  My
    '75 Corvette now has a 427 where a 350 used to live.  There are some 
    parts that are specifically made for the BB Corvettes.  The BB radiator 
    is larger, and has a different remote tank.  The SB remote tank can
    be used however.  The Corvette water pump is a different version, (larger
    shaft diameter) and there is a special fan clutch for BB Corvette.  

    The BB Corvette intake manifold is a low profile variant, and there is
    a special low air cleaner base.  Even if you do use them, you will 
    probably end up having to modify the hood.  I *really* like the L-88 
    style scoop.
        
    The accessory mounting brackets used on the BB Corvette are very different
    from anything used on SB Corvettes and if your Corvette has air 
    conditioning, they are the only way to go.  If there is no AC, the small 
    block brackets can be made to work.  Most (if not all) of the BB 
    brackets are still availible from the various Corvette parts suppliers.  
    When ordering from catalogs, remember that the last year GM installed 
    the BB in any numbers in Corvettes was '73.
    
    Headers can be installed relatively easily.  The car must be lifted
    fairly high, since the headers will have to be installed from underneath.
    Depending whose headers and which model you choose, the only clearance
    problem you may have will be with the heater box, which can be cured 
    with some minor modifications to the heater box.  
    
    I'd recommend getting the stiffer front springs.  Without them you may 
    have some strange handling problems.

    Best time through the lights was 13.6 @106mph.

    Tom
    

    Thanks Tom, Don B, and MadMike, for the replies. Its my last day here
    at Digital. Everyones over the club house dinner time for a few pints of
    beer for a final goodbye. Great talking to you guys, and if your ever
    over here and see a red 72 Vette, say hi.
    
    All the best .....................Col.

    Have often thought of swapping out the Borg Warner 4 spd in my '79 L-82
    for a later model Camabird 5 spd with OD. Anyone know if it would fit 
    without modifying the location of the shifter where it comes through the 
    tunnel. I remember reading somewhere that the late model Corvette 4+3 was
    a very tight fit due to the overdrive unit. The 4+3 would probably have
    a better survival rate though behind a 350 than the Camabird unit would. 
    
    I want to avoid doing any non-recoverable changes to the undercarriage
    or interior. @ 65 with 3.23 gears it tachs around 3200, which seems
    overly excessive compared to later model offerings. 
    
    ~jeff 

    re: Note 15.84 by STRATA::BERNIER
    
    A broken cam is always broken.  Pull and check your plugs.  A heavily
    fouled plug would indicate a possible cam problem.  I would assume
    your car would run like crap all the time and backfire a bunch if you 
    had a bad lobe.
    
    As far as the cat, I don't know about that.  I did happen to drive
    a FoRd (rental) truck once (key word, once) which had the cat
    clog up, and let me tell you, when the cat broke it lost power all
    right... and croaked at 11pm in the middle of no-effin-where PA.
    
    My gut says it's something other than the 2 previously mentioned
    items.  Maybe a fuel delivery issue of some sort.  I'd troubleshoot
    the fuel system first.  And saw off the catconverter just to be
    sure :^).
    
    Regards,
                
    MadMike

     re: Note 15.84 by STRATA::BERNIER
    
    Loss of power and overheat could also be the timing chain...maybe it's
    jumped a tooth or two?  Maybe this car has a few more miles than you
    think?
    
    Check both the ignition AND valve timing.
    
    It's pretty easy to check the CAT...take it off. 
    
    Do the exhaust headers/manifolds get red when it's running?  That would
    be another incication of either the chain or Cat.
    
    /tb/

    Re: Jeff
    
    If your car has the ladder bar that runs from the back of the
    transmission to the rear, parallel to the driveshaft, then nobody makes
    a transmission that will fit - that is, nobody is currently making a
    transmission housing that has the bolt-on point for the ladder bar.
    
    If it *doesn't* have the ladder bar, you might want to look into the
    Richmond gear 6-speed. It can be gotten with a 3.01 first gear ratio
    and overdrive 6th, which will work well in your car. I'd be leary about
    the Borg-Warner T5. Although the price is right, it simply won't hold
    up if you tend to use full throttle and bang gears.
    
    Of course, at around a grand a pop (instead of 3 grand for the
    Ricmond), you could keep a spare around :-).
    
    Bruce 

    
    
    Anyone know a source for a wiring diagram for an '80?
    
    /ab

    Call Mid-america and get the build manual and shop manual. It'll have
    everything you need. 
      I just had a belt break and take out all the belts (at nite- barely
    made it home). The shop manuals don't say anything about belt routing
    but the build manual give two full pages of belt setups depending on
    the rpo and build date of the engine. These books are really
    indespensable.
    
       Bob
    

    Well another noter looking for advise on his firat Vette.
    
    I have an opportunity to pick up a 72 convertable from a friend. The
    body was stripped and repainted 2 years ago. The interior is black
    leather and mint and it comes with the hardtop. The frame is perfect
    with no rot and there has never been any body work done (other than 
    repainting.) 
    
    It was originally an LT-1 but the engine was replaced with a new 350
    rated a little over 300 HP. I'm not sure if the engine is a 72 or not. 
    
    The guy needs a new heating system in his house and will sell me the
    car for $10K. I think this is a good value but am not very well plugged
    into car values. I'm learning but would like to hear form the experts. 
    
    I appreciate any feedback. 
    
    Brian	

    I replied in carbuff, 40.549 & 550.
    My guess is $8-8.5K
    
    MadMike

    I was thinking around 9K.  The non-matching number engine really hurts
    the value of top condition 'Vettes.
    
    Rich

    Thanks for the tips. 
    
    I'll have a friend who knows cars alot better than I do check the
    brakes, frame and body for lines that may ne be just right. Then 
    I'll try and talk him down. If he won't drop I guess I'll walk.
    
    Thanks again.
    
    Brian

    
       Why do "Matching Numbers" Mean anything to a non-collector?
    Its a no-brainer to understand that a much better powerplant can be had
    in the aftermarket making outrageous amounts of power. Yet when
    corvette nuts get together and see that a collecter type vehicle has
    been modified-they want to crucify the poor owner. What a bunch of
    crap!  So I guess you keep the matching number drivetrain in the garage
    and install your mega power setup to go trolling with.
    
        But I agree with the rest in that 10k is too damn much to pay for
    the car being discussed.
    
    -john

    re: Why do "Matching Numbers" Mean anything to a non-collector?
    
    They determine ultimate value.  If you buy the car and don't worry
    about the origonal engine, the origonal engine will most likely be
    GONE.  Forever.  It'll never be origonal again.  20 years down the road,
    it's still a souped up vette.  A 100% origonal '72 vette may someday
    be worth $35,000 for some reason.  But if the origonal engine is not
    available, it's "just a corvette".  (sales pitch)  ya, what else is
    missing?
    
    If you get the origonal engine with the car you can store it.  20 years
    down the road you pull your 800HP 454 out, have the old motor rebuilt
    and reinstalled, and sell the car as 100% origonal - for $35,000.
    
    MadMike

    Sure its a no-brainer, but that does not change the fact that
    the big bucks get paid for originality (especially in the
    Corvette field).  I may not care about the originality of the
    engine when I buy, but there is some rich collector out there that
    does. That is what drives up the price.
    
    Rich

    RE: .91
    
           Well, did you get the car? If so, were you able to talk him
    down?

    Still looking.....
    
    The car is nice but for $10K I think there may be a better deal to be
    had. While I'm not so concerned about having it as a collector piece
    I'd like it to hold it's value. 
    
    I appreciate all of your advise and will certainly let you know when I 
    make the purchase. Work has had me traveling a lot and I havn't had the
    opportunity to look as good as I'd like to. I will have a Vette by mid 
    June at the latest. 
    
    Thanks
    
    Brian

Hi,

I've read through the notes and replies
in this note and haven't really found
an answer to my question.

My brother is telling me to consider
buying an early '70s big block (454) vette.
He said a numbers-matching, mint-condition
one should sell around $12K. He feels it's
a good investment. He said any Corvette in
mint condition prior to '68 (such as a '67 with
a 427) is untouchable for less than $30,000.

What do the experts think on the '70s BB.
I'd like to own a convertible rather than
a hardtop. Is a mint condition 70-72 convertible
well beyond the $10-15K range?

I've never owned a 'vette nor any other musclecar
before. This is my first foray into considering
one.

thanks,

Justin 

}My brother is telling me to consider
}buying an early '70s big block (454) vette.

Good idea.

}He said a numbers-matching, mint-condition
}one should sell around $12K. He feels it's
}a good investment. 

Bzztt.  The price is a little low.  You can probably buy a vette that
"needs work" for that price.  Then again, you may not find many matching
number big blocks that need work.  They're probably all well taken care
of and waiting for a buyer.

}He said any Corvette in
}mint condition prior to '68 (such as a '67 with
}a 427) is untouchable for less than $30,000.

Not so.  Ya, pre 68 vettes with 427's are expensive, but they can
be found for under 30 grand.  The split window (63) vette I know was around
30 grand.  That's a rare car.

}What do the experts think on the '70s BB.
}I'd like to own a convertible rather than
}a hardtop. Is a mint condition 70-72 convertible
}well beyond the $10-15K range?

You may have a hard time finding a big block with the convertible top.
From 1970 - 1973, roadster production never exceeded 7200 cars.
1970 - 6648, 1971 - 7121, 1972 - 6508, 1973 - 5583.
1973 was the year they ditched the front chrome bumper and went to the
platic nose.  The rear bumper was still chrome.
1974 was the last year for the 454. It had plastic front and rear bumpers.
I think your desired years are 1970 - 1972.  Most (all?) vettes had a 
removable top (T-tops), a halfassed convertible without the additional
expense/weight of a 100% convertible.  For that much engine, I'd prefer
to have a top on the car.  I'd assume many vette buyers thought the same,
although I knew someone who had a 68 convertible with a 427.

I think the price range on a big block vette will range from a low
of 9 grand for junk, on up to however big your wallet is.  I'd plan on
spending around 15 - 17 grand.  You may not get a convertible,  You may
want to consider the 68-69 vette with the 427.

Go to the library and look in the sunday papers for Los Angeles, Dallas,
Atlanta, Memphis, Miami, etc... and see what's available.  Get a feel
for the prices.

I'd probably locate a matching number 454 in decent condition and be
prepared to spend 10 - 13,000.  And then spend another $5000 fixing it
(new interior, paint, mechanical stuff) over time.  The cars are out
there if you have the money.  You may not quickly find a 100% origonal or 
100% of all the options you want right away.  Be patient and look around.
You may need to travel too.

There is a place just south of me called American Classics.  Corvettes
from all over the country are sent there to be restored.  The guy
stores vettes for others.  He probably has over $3 million worth of
corvettes sitting on his property.  The next time I drive past the
place, I'll see what he has to say.  You may want to call him up and
chat.  I'll get their phone number too.  This place is located in
Forsyth County Georgia.  FYI.

Regards,
MadMike

Here's what's happening in Atlanta

1963 split window $28,800.  No tire kickers please.  (I just tossed this
in for the hell of it).

1969 Convertible, 427/390hp, 4sp, a/c, PS, PW, tilt.  NCRS top flight.
Numbers match, restored. showroom new.  $34,500.  negotiable.

1970 convertible.  match #'s, 350 engine.  $21,000.  "nice car".

1971 convertible, numbers match, loaded (except has a 350).  restored.
$19,500 or trade for porsce 911.

74 t tops, 8.5K

66 roadster, 427 "both tops".  $30,000.

73  blue.  excellent condition.  $13,000.
71 t tops, very good condition.  $9.5K  (350/ 4spd.)

Wow, lots of vettes in here, many years, prices and options.
Here's one that you may find interesting.

72, convertible.  LS-5 (454), matching numbers, PS, auto.  Very good
condition.  $16,200.

There's a '74 454 for $10,995.  A bunch of split windows.  Many mid 60's
roadsters.

If you got $16,000 and a plane ticket to Atlanta.... you're in bizness.

MadMike

    fwiw:
    
    Also, pick up a classic/antique car mag - AutoTrader
    There are a ton of Vette's to choose from, or go to the web and have a
    gander. 
    http://www.traderonline.com/
    
    

    To clarify .101
    Roadster production never exceeded 7200 cars PER YEAR MENTIONED.  I then 
    went on to list each years specific unit number which obviously totaled
    over 7200 cars, which could have been confusing.
    
    So Justin,  Have you gone to the DCU yet?  :^)
    
    MadMike

MadMike

Thanks for the info. I think I have a lot more
research to do before going to DCU. A friend
of my brother's suggested I attend a road rally
called the summer nationals here in Worcester, Mass.
The friend said talk to Corvette owners there
to get more info.

Do you know of a way to actually drive one of the
older vettes? Also what is NCRS? And were
you able to talk to the owner of American Classics?

I went to a dealer last night to look at the new
corvettes and the Z28 Camaros. Nice but pricey.

JK

}Thanks for the info. I think I have a lot more
}research to do before going to DCU. 

From the looks of things, there are plenty to choose from (at least here)
and the prices are all over the map, so finding one in your budget shouldn't
be a problem.  Financing may be a problem.  (get creative.  33% cash,
33% cash advance on credit card, 33% personal loan).  Then refinance
your cash advance and personal loan in a hurry.  I parked some debt on
a 5.9% credit card.  That's better than a new car loan.  I'll bet the
DCU will laugh you out of the office if you asked for $10,000 to buy
a 1970 vette.

}A friend
}of my brother's suggested I attend a road rally
}called the summer nationals here in Worcester, Mass.
}The friend said talk to Corvette owners there
}to get more info.

You buy it, you own it.  But with a vette, if you don't like it, you can
probably unload it for what you paid if you don't get screwed up front
and can wait.  Make sure you're getting what you want up front.  Don't
settle for a small block when you REALLY wanted a big block.  I'd get
info on vettes.  Buy some books.  Buy some vette magazines.  Buy some
autotraders, get some corvette parts suppliers catalogs.  If your
car is not "mint", what are you going to spend to fix it?  Can you
afford the car _and_ the fix?  Do options matter?  Ask me about Camaros
and I'll tell you they are great.  Are you hearing what you want to hear,
what can a corvette owner tell you?  "Ya, my car leaks from the tops,
the brakes don't ever last and the paint sucks. It's for sale"  Ho Ho.
Don't get steered.   Go to the vette event.  Chat with folks, look at the
cars.  You will see things you like, and things you don't like.  Maybe
a vette will be for sale.  The circumstances affect the price.  If you're
wetting your pants over a car, it's more expensive.  If I'm selling a
car because I lost my job/wife/interest, the price is flexible.

}Do you know of a way to actually drive one of the
}older vettes? Also what is NCRS? And were
}you able to talk to the owner of American Classics?

Ya, buy the car.  I'd assume you won't even see the keys until you
put at least 50% cash down.  This weeds out the tire kickers.  If a
buyer is serious that shouldn't be a problem.  NCRS?  National Corvette
Restoration Society?  That's a GUESS on my part.  I'll get the phone
number today for American Classics.

Regards,
MadMike

    Also,
    You say you have no experience with vettes or muscle cars.
    
    See your car as a piece of art.  A tempermental thing that needs
    attention and TLC.  Have proper storage.  Have proper tools to
    work on/maintain the car.  Insurance agencies will see it as a 
    1970 Chevrolet.  If you don't want to play that game, you'll need
    to have the car apraised at $16,200, with the bill of sale showing
    that's what you paid.  Better yet, have the car apraised BEFORE
    you buy it.  Have it inspected by a mechanic.  Thouroghly.
    Don't trust ANYTHING the seller says, until you confirm it.
    Back to insurance, ok, it's not a 1970 chevrolet anymore, it's a $16K
    vette.  Your premium is now $5000/year.  whoops.  Maybe it's an
    antique, or show only, or driven occasionally.  Now the premium drops
    to $2000/year or whatever.  Check into Insurance and Registration
    issues now, before you buy the car.
    
    Parts and maintenance shouldn't be a problem.  It's a BBC, common.
    Vette specific parts... expensive.  
    
    I used to spend more hours under the hood than driving my car.  My
    car sort of went a different way though so I expected that.  If you
    are not mechanically inclined, stay away from some radical performance
    style engine, for example, something with mechanical lifters.  Also, the
    more power the car makes, the easier it gets to destroy parts
    elsewhere.  Keep that in mind. 
    
    I'm not trying to scare you, but these are things to know before you
    spend a penny on something.
    
    MadMike

    Well, sit down y'all.
    
    I was just standing next to 9, count 'em, 9 (nine) immaculate
    corvettes.  two late 50's, 3 mid 60's, a 72 454 (for $20K), a 71,
    a 78 pace car and a 75.  (not to mention the Buick GNs and several
    55-57 chevies).  That's just what was being aired out.
    
    Here's the deal:
    American Classics.  
    6320 Hwy 400
    Cumming Georgia, 30131
    
    Darryl Redd  770 889-5900.  A very nice person.
    They specialize in corvettes.  The fellow is booked solid for 2 years
    and is not accepting new work.  But you may be able to chat with him 
    or bounce an idea or question off him.
    
    re: Corvette prices, Darryl said they fluctuate with the economy and
    stock market.  Corvettes are really investments.  Some folks will buy
    a vette and store it and make 10-20% and sell it.  Right now, is a 
    down cycle, people unloading stuff.  The problem with this is I
    personally wouldn't buy a vette as an investment, it wouldn't be for
    sale.  It wouldn't be bought with the intention of making a killing a
    couple years down the road.  Then again, maybe I could do this.  After
    about 10 years of doing this, I could afford to keep a vette and still
    get another one.  HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM gawd dang it justin, you got
    me to thinking....  my wifes gonna get pissed at me...  :^)
    
    MadMike 

>of my brother's suggested I attend a road rally
>called the summer nationals here in Worcester, Mass.

It's not a "road rally".  It's  a bunch of trailer queens mixed in with a 
bunch of street squirrels and a few die-hard hot rodders sitting under 
trees drinking beer.

>The friend said talk to Corvette owners there
>to get more info.

There'll certainly be Corvette owners there.  Unfortunately, most of them 
are at the same level as you are when it comes to actually knowing 
something about the automobile itself.  Why, you ask?  Well, when you plunk 
down a loan application for one of these things, you don't necessarily 
have to know where the oil goes and where the washer fluid goes.  You ONLY 
have to know where the loan payment goes.

>Do you know of a way to actually drive one of the
>older vettes? Also what is NCRS? And were
>you able to talk to the owner of American Classics?

NCRS National Corvette Restorer's Assn = a bunch of rich snobs.  NCRS folks 
show up at any and all "car shows" whining about who gets the biggest 
trophies.  On the other hand, nobody  -- absolutely NOBODY  -- in anything 
BUT a Corvette can get into one of their shows.  FWIW, MOST Corvette clubs 
harbor this attitude.  They REALLY think their s**t doesn't stink.

Talk to someone who RESTORES Corvettes.  By that, I mean someone who 
actually does the work and has an appreciation for the amount of time and 
materials involved.  These folks KNOW what the car is worth before they 
start and what it's worth after they've finished.  Corvette owners, in 
general, only know what the "going price" is from reading the want ads in 
the back of their monthly newsletters.  They have absolutely no way of 
ascertaining the condition of the vehicle from the 1" ad, yet they will 
tell you anything you want to hear and insist their evaluations are 
accurate.  The person who owns a restoration (that someone else restored 
for him/her) only knows what he/she paid to have the job done.  This dollar 
value will, invariably, be well above the actual worth of the vehicle.  
They probably paid too much for the car in the first place then paid 
through the nose to get it restored in a hurry.  i.e. next day air shipment 
costs, bought from the first guy who had the parts instead of the guy with 
the best price, paid time and mileage for the restorer to spend a week at 
Corvette-Carlisle, etc.

Look in the phone book.  Call a couple of restorers, find a couple that 
restore Corvettes and get a handle on the time and materials (and cost of 
both) involved.  See if you can get a feel for what constitutes a solid 
foundation for a restoration vs. what represents a "parts car" then look at 
the purchase price of a used Vette and figure it's barely more than a parts 
car (worst case restoration project) and see what the bottom line would be.

You'll be shocked.  It's NOT an investment.  It's a losing proposition.

It's also a losing proposition if you buy a 'Vette to simply hold onto and 
re-sell in the future if you buy a poor restoration that deteriorates 
before you can re-sell it.

My kid brother's "into" 'Vettes.  He's constantly bragging about his 
wheeling and dealings.  Since he lives in Maine, I don't get to see him 
very often.  When I finally saw one of his prizes, I told him he should 
have stuck to airplanes instead.  The car was a rat.  Pop riveted and 
Bondo'd front fender, same on the opposite rear quarter, rusted frame, 
hacked up radiator bulkhead, Midas exhaust system (leaking), etc.  And this 
was a car that he was trying to peddle for top dollar.

    
        Hey wait a minute Skip....you mean to tell me that if I buy a
    corvette, that I can't brag to the world that I know everything about
    them?  Gee, this really sucks!   Now I hafta win the damn lottery, go
    buy a pristine resto, and say I did it all myself.  I'll be right back,
    I gotta go get some lottery tickets.
    
    -john

re: -.2

Are you saying that it's impossible to 
get a decent "all-original" late 60s/early 70s vette
in the price range I mentioned: $14-16K. Or are
you just saying they don't appreciate as much
as people think. 

Have you found most vettes out there have had
some kind of restoration work done and aren't
worth the prices the owners are fetching?

I just saw a '72 convertible here in Hudson today.
Looked pretty nice from what I could tell.

JK

    Oh, skips got a hair across his ass again, and I kinda agree with
    him.  I goof on "hot rod" for the reasons he mentions.
    
    When you deal with corvettes you are going uptown.  Lot's of folks
    have big bucks and no brains.  They can write a check for $20,000
    and buy the biggest POS out there and then tow it around the
    country and buy trophies and stuff.  They've bought their way into
    the game.  They don't know jack about what they're doing.  They
    "wreck" stuff.  People like "us" sweat and bust our but.  I and a
    couple friends do my stuff.  Skippys probably got himself a home
    build hot rod.  Something that someone else could write a check for
    like it's no big deal.
    
    There is a lot going on here.  I sort of eluded to it when I mentioned
    about getting steered.  Some corvette owners couldn't tell you where
    to put the gas into the thing, let alone how big the gas tank is on
    a 71 model.  Or how much the tank costs, or even where to get the tank.
    Talking to people like this is useless.  You need to "get a feel" for
    what's going on, not just from some bozo who happens to have a vette.
    
    I didn't think a vette would be a full blown investment.  You said
    you wanted a MINT car.  To me, that car is done.  Price it out, 
    have it scrutinized and buy it.  Don't expect to be getting $20,000
    on a $16K car overnight.  Enjoy the car.  Drive it around.  I'd
    personally get something that "needs work".  I wouldn't mind dropping
    $7,000 on a vette.  I can rebuild the engine, paint the car and
    do whatever else needs to be done.  Maybe I could sell it for $14,000
    and make a couple bucks. Who knows.  I'd probably want to keep it.  Hell, 
    my wife would be mad if I tried to sell it after all that effort.
    
    The other thing is auto knowledge.  You can't buy knowledge, but you
    may not need all that much.  But you need to be smart.  If you don't
    have someone who's "been around" so to say, you may wind up 
    buying skips brothers vette, and get screwed.  That's why I said
    have a mechanic check it out first.  He could care less if you
    buy it or not.  If it's a POS he'll tell you.  Looking Mint and being
    mint is 2 different things.  Your mint vette may need a new suspension,
    breaks and steering box.  The heaters broken, the convertible roof
    don't always convertible and the power windows stick.
    Well, now you gotta buy parts.  And you're GONNA PAY OUT THE WAZOO FOR
    THEM I'M SURE.  I'll bet the convertible guts on a vette start at
    $1000.  Just a guess.  You need to know this stuff up front, and
    be prepared if necessary to deal with it.  Since we all happen to
    work for DEC I don't think you're at the point where you can
    spend $16,000 and then write joe corvette shop a check for $5000 to
    fix the thing like it's no big deal.
    
    I don't know enough about the vette to be able to say if the
    convertible top is that big a deal.  That's the 1st thing I'd look
    into howerver.  A solid roof or T-top won't break, get stuck or
    wear out though.
    
    So...  you need to do a lot of research and rely on trusted sources
    before dropping some cash on your new toy.  I'd buy the vette with
    the intention of enjoying it.  If after 5 years it skyrockets or some
    ding-dong will pay you $30,000 for it... sell it.  You can look
    back and say "what an awesome investment".  If you can't give the thing
    away, BFD, it's your corevette and you enjoy it, plus (hopefully by
    then) it's paid for.
    
    Regards,
    MadMike    

    Here's another thing:
    
    I mention American Classics.  Give him a call and chat.  See what
    his hourly rate is for ha-ha's.  I have no idea, I didn't ask.
    But forget it regardless of cost because he's booked and you don't
    want to wait 2 years to have something fixed.  The hourly rate
    he charges should be competitive with what's out there.  I'll
    bet it's well over $50/hour.  Maybe closer to $100.
    
    So you need an exhaust.  Sure midas can do it for cheap, but you
    loose points because you don't have the "correct" exhaust on the thing.
    Any moron with a torch can put an exhaust on, but it'll look like it,
    and this is where the whine and cheese guys blow a gasket.  It's
    not 100% correct and your car is a POS (in their eyes).  Plus you
    don't have an enclosed trailer and $150,000 motorhome to tow the
    thing around.  You're a commoner. 
    
    But so what?  What's a NOS exhaust cost?  A bunch probably. 
    Is this what you really want?  You want a vette, not some concourse
    deal.  Look at that '69 vette I put in, the 427 convertible "NCRS"
    for $34,000.  Whatta joke.  The guy probably wrote a check for $20,000
    on top of the purchase price of the car.  Also notice how the price
    is "negotiable".  (I got soaked... bail me out y'all).
    
    I guess 15-17K is ballpark.  There's junk out there and there's
    expensive junk.  And there's some nice stuff too.  I'll also say this:
    having a car restored is not the way to go if you can't do it yourself.
    Your initially low buck vette will lighten you around $30-50K by the
    time you're done "fixing it".  There are also "restorers" or "restored"
    cars that are trash.  I can look at a car and think it looks nice
    (initially).  I have a friend who can simply look at the same car and tell
    you where it was smashed up, then he can look in the right spots and
    tell you how good/bad the thing was put back together.   You need
    someone like this when looking at a "mint" car.  Assuming this 
    happened on the $16,200 vette down here, that could knock the price
    down to $13,000. for example.
    
    Regards,
    MadMike

-
    
    
        If a Vette is what you really want than by all means go for it,
    however IMO,putting up with all the pressure,harrassment,and
    embarassment from the posh Vette crowd because your not 100% concourse
    takes all the fun out of being a classic car owner,and I think I speak 
    for the rest of the guys in that that's what it's all about in the
    first place FUN! I also recomend doing lots of homework,lots of
    magazines,parts catalogs,repair manuals,and picture books,if only
    to be able to recognize yourself what's correct and what is not. I've
    stripped my vehicle of every bolt and I'm in the process of assembly
    and have been researching for six years now and still am. Also I agree
    that there is a HUGE difference in price and quality of NOS vs repro
    parts,found that out the hard way. You should also be able to decode a
    VIN # yourself,recogize the paritcular assembly plant paint swatches,
    decals and wiring tags if your going to invest in a class 1 original.
      If your just going to buy one to drive and enjoy and not show,just
    remember there will always be one of them guys to seek you out and go
    out of his way to let you know whats wrong with your car and how much
    better HIS is and yours is junk and you got ripped off. Personally I'll
    pass on being in the vette crowd,but here are some figures out of 
     "OLD CARS PRICE GUIDE" Vol.19,No.4  August-196.
    
    
                                                 CONDITION
    
    1970                         6       5      4      3      2        1
         Spt Cpe                900     2900   4800   9600  16,800   24,000
         Conv                  1050     3350   5600  11,200 19,600   28,000

               Notes: add 20% for LT-1 option. ZR1 option not estimable.


    1971
         Spt Cpe                850     2750   4600   9200  16,100   23,000
         Conv                  1000     3250   5400  10,800 18,900   27.000

               Notes: add 20% for LT-1 option;20% for LS-6 option.ZR1 and
                      ZR2 options not estimable.


    1972
         Spt Cpe                850     2750   4600   9200  16,100   23,000
         Conv                  1000     3250   5400  10,800 18,900   27,000

               Notes: add 20% for LT-1 option. ZR1 option not estimable.



    The PRICE GUIDE's condition classifications are as follows:

          1.  EXCELLENT- Restored to current maximum professional standards of
                         quallity in every area,or perfect original with
                         componants operating and appearing as new. A 95 point
                         plus show car that is not driven.   
                            In national show judging,a car in No.1 condition
                         is likley to win top honors in it's class. In a sense
                         it has ceased to be an automobile and has become an
                         object of art.It is transported to shows in an
                         enclosed trailer,it is stored in a climate controlled
                         facility.It is NOT driven. There are very few No.1
                         cars.

          2.  FINE- Well-restored,or a combination of superior restoration and 
                    excellent original. Also,an EXTREMELY well-maintained
                    original showing very minimal wear.
                          Except for very close inspection, a No.2 vehicle may
                    appear as a No.1. The No.2 vehicle will take the top award
                    in many judged shows,except when squared off with a No.1
                    example in it's own class. It may also be driven 800-1000
                    miles each year to show or on tours,and simply for
                    pleasure.
                  

          3.  VERY GOOD-Completely operable original or older
                    restoration showing wear.Also a good amateur 
                    restoration,all presentable and servicable inside and
                    out.Plus, combinations of well done restoration and good 
                    operable componants,or partially restored car with all
                    parts necessary to complete it and/or valuable NOS parts.
                         This a "20-footer".That is ,from 20' away it may look
                    perfect.But as we approach it,we begin to notice the 
                    paint may be getting a little thin in spots from frequent
                    washing and polishing. Looking inside we might detect some
                    wear on the drivers seat,foot pedals and carpeting. The 
                    chrome trim,while still quite presentable,may have lost 
                    some of that sharp mirrior like reflective quality it had
                    when new. All systems and equipment on the car are in good 
                    operating order.In general, most of the vehicles seen at
                    car shows are No.3's

          
          4.  GOOD-A driveable vehicle needing no or only minor work to be 
                   functional. Also,a deteriorated restoration or a very poor
                   amateur restoration.All componants may need restoration to
                   be" excellent"but the car is mostly useable "as is".
                         This is a driver. It may be in the process of
                   restoration or the owner may have big plans,but even from
                   20' away,there is no doubt that it needs a lot of help.


          5.  RESTORABLE-Needs complete restoration of body,chassis and
                         interior.May or may not be running,but isn't weathered
                         wrecked,and/or stripped to the point of being useful
                         only for parts.
                                    This car needs everything. It may not be   
                         operable,but it is essentially all there and has only
                         minor surface rust,if any rust at all. While
                         presenting a real challenge for the restorer, it won't
                         have him doing a lot of chasing for missing parts.


          6. PARTS CAR-May or may not be running, but is weathered,wrecked and/
                       or stripped to the point of being usefull primarily for
                       parts.  
                             This is an  incomplete or greatly deteriorated,
                       perhaps rusty,vehicle that has value only as a parts 
                       donor for other restoration projects.


        KEEP THESE IN MIND WHEN WADING THRU THE BS
   
                                                    John
                 

>Are you saying that it's impossible to 
>get a decent "all-original" late 60s/early 70s vette
>in the price range I mentioned: $14-16K. Or are
>you just saying they don't appreciate as much
>as people think. 

It's not impossible by any means.  What WILL be very difficult (on your 
part) is ascertaining whether you're getting what you're paying for.  i.e. 
it's NOT an "older restoration" or a "repaired (minor damage) wreck" etc.

About the only way to know for sure is to buy a one-owner car from an 
honest person.  THAT'LL narrow the field enormously.

>Have you found most vettes out there have had
>some kind of restoration work done and aren't
>worth the prices the owners are fetching?

For the most part, yes.  The trouble with Corvettes is that they're 
(nowadays) just overpriced Camaros and like Camaros, they've gone through 
multiple owners prior toy your entering the picture.

You can't put the kids in the back, they suck in the winter, they ride hard, 
etc.  They're just not a practical car so they get traded after a few 
months/years.  All you need is some poor (no money) bozo who decides 
patching is better than replacing and you have a Corvette that's not worth 
as much as a Chevette of the same vintage....because the patch will have to 
be removed, the damage repaired and the correct part(s) installed.  THIS is 
not cheap on a Fiberglas car.  You just don't bolt on a fender with one of 
these like you do with a Camaro.

>I just saw a '72 convertible here in Hudson today.
>Looked pretty nice from what I could tell.

Bondo and wax can make anything look good for the first season.

>Are you saying that it's impossible to 
>get a decent "all-original" late 60s/early 70s vette
>in the price range I mentioned: $14-16K. Or are
>you just saying they don't appreciate as much
>as people think. 

BTW, an "all-original" late 60s/early '70s Vette in that price 
range WILL need work as will.

The only thing in your favor is the "all-original" aspect.  That'll raise 
your investment value as it'll keep your total cost (restoration/
maintenance + purchase cost) vs. restored-value spread a bit wider.  You 
won't have to "fix" other people's screwups.

Something that came up in conversation last evening is pertinent to this 
discussion.

"Award winning"

DON'T be taken in by this foolishness.

Whose awards?  Sheraton-Leominster cruise committee?  Mayor's Choice, 
Exalted Ruler's Choice, League of Women Voter's Choice?

These award winning cars aren't what they're cracked up to be.

To begin with.....to be an award winning car, the award must be justifiable.

With Corvettes, it's NCRS, ISCA, VMCCA (Hershey) or any of the 
nationally-recognized and professionally-judged meets.  An award from the 
local Chamber of Commerce show or (like in Littleton a couple of weeks ago) 
a Rotary Club sponsored show is worthless when it comes to evaluating a 
car's value.  All it tells you is that the vehicle was, indeed, in 
attendance at that show.

If you're going to base your evaluation on an accumulation of trophies, 
weed out all of the superfluous awards and concentrate on only those where 
the judges actually knew something about the vehicle type they were 
judging.   ...and don't be suckered in by someone who insists that a local 
chapter NCRS show is a valid award-giving entity.  Unless they hired the 
judges from Bloomington, they're nothing but a popularity contest.

These folks who trailer their cars to cruise night after cruise night and 
display their "awards" on an easel in front of their vehicles crack me up.

I've done NSRA safety inspections on some of these vehicles.  They're 
TOILETS and a good portion of them are unsafe as well. ...but they're 
dragged around on a trailer so it's no big deal (the safety issues)

    
        I don't know if this is funny or not, but at last years yearly
    Street Rod and custom car show in Pueblo...Someone cut a bunch of valve
    stems off a whole bunch of trailer queens the night before the show.
    All the People who actually DROVE their street rods from every corner
    of the earth, seemed to have a good laugh about it.  Me too!
    
    -john

That happened at our motel in Memphis during the 1980 Street Rod Nationals, 
too.

We went out on Sunday morning to leave for home and there wasn't a single 
trailer tire with air in it in the whole parking lot.

BTW, A lot of the trailers were from Florida.

It's really amazing.  Those folks consistently (Fla) show up in trailered cars 
yet they can drive all year long on roads w/o a lot of frost damage.  ...
and they're the royalty of the trailer queens.  go figure!

        re: 15.118 <cut stems>
    
    <warning - on the soap box>
    
    Nope, under any circumstance I can think of, it ain't funny
    
    Perhaps someday down the road - it might seem funny if not ironic but..
    I'd almost bet money: some of the folks you speak of that 'seemed to
    have a good laugh', probably pitched in and helped these folks that had
    their tires flattened, before the chuckles.  

    For the weenies that cut stems; to bad they didn't get caught! You can
    probably bet these weenies, that did this, did not a: do it in plain
    sight of the owners, b: pay for the repairs, or c: admit to it......am
    I correct?  IMNSHO: This behavior is wrong, unjustified, and paramount
    to vandalism! and if caught, do the time for doing the crime (either
    in  fines/restitution) period.         
                                  
                                  rich boren

Well, I had no part in the valve stem cutting but I must say, I was quite 
pleased with the results.

You see, a LOT of us drove a long way with our cars to get to Memphis.  I 
had driven out to Regina the week before and this was a LOOOOOOONG trip for 
me.  What I didn't need to see when I got to Memphis was a motel parking lot 
filled with crew-cab dualies and motorhomes with tandem axle trailers 
taking 7 parking spaces apiece.

These folks don't know the meaning of the word "consideration".  They got 
what they deserved.  They commandeered the entire parking lot from late 
Tuesday until Sunday morning.  There was no place for paying guests to park.

When everyone drove their street rods off to the fairgrounds during the day, 
these Bozos would slide another truck/trailer combination into another group 
of parking spots.

....and, like I said, the majority of these folks were from Florida.

    
        I think this all started with the "copycat" lifestyle that the
    current crop of snobs are involved in. For the Motorcyclist they go
    to daytona sturgis laconia et all and show up with custom trailered
    Harleys and the bikes only get local mileage put on them.  This kind of
    started in the late seventys and gets worse every year. They want no
    part of the REAL biker lifestyle, but they have a longing to be
    "something", so its copied.
        Now its migrated to Street Rods, Early english classics,
    Porsheophiles. ANYTHING money can buy....so that they can be a part of
    a lifestyle they cannot exist in for real. I feel sorry for them, their
    lives are truly empty.
    
    -john

    I'm with you, Skip. I'm so sick of the trailers and especially the
    trailer cars at the NSRA events that I just may not go to these
    anymore. 
    These events are for "street" rods as the association's name clearly
    indicates. Why does NSRA allow this? Why do they allow trailer cars to
    enter into the judged competition at these events? Its quite obvious
    which cars are trailered and which are not.
    I've driven my blown '33 Willys all over the country. Thats what its
    all about. I think I'll go back into drag racing!
    
    Dick
    

    seems this 'corvette' thread has gone elsewhere.  it's interesting
    though...and my note a few back, simply was to point out vandalism is
    vandalisim. that said, the whole trailer queen thing is part of the
    program (even though most don't like it)....there are all kinds of
    justifications for both camps.  
    
    <imho>
    not to generate controversy, rather food for thought: I think it's a
    bit like any other association: if something can be changed that's
    undesireable...then work to get it changed, and  if it can't be
    changed, it's choice time. Either tolerate it and play or move on to
    some other club/association that's more along your expectations
     :^)    
    
    my $.02 worth: It may not have any bearing on the Street Rod and
    trailer queen problem.... But, for sure, that's why I drag race... I
    belong to NHRA, NMCA, MMCI, IHRA, and The Goodguy's Nostaligia Racing.  
    As the target is performance only, driver and car :^) All the
    parameters for how it gets done is up to each member :^)
    
    
    

MadMike, Skip, et al

Well, I went to the Summer Nationals this 
weekend (had the misfortune of having my
car broken into) and talked to a couple
of corvette owners. One guy with a '67 327/350
'vette told me that I should look at the
body on the car and see if there is a straight
line from rear to front. He said a lot of Corvettes
came from the factory with the bodies improperly
bolted on. If the line isn't straight, he said
you'll know there was work done to the car and
the car isn't original. Also, he noted that the
Corvette tends to rust out near the lower part of
the rear tire well. I noticed this on an early '80s
vette that was for sale in someone's front yard.

Have you found this to be the case?

Incidentally, the two owners
I talked to both said their cars were worth at
least $40,000. Although the woman I spoke with had
a '67 327/300 that was not modified like the other guy's.

There was also another '67 427 hardtop that had never been
repainted. This one supposedly belonged to Reggie Jackson.
The owner wanted $40K.

Justin 

    That reg Jackson Vette was in last weeks Want- Ad FYI
    
    		Dean

    It didn't burn up in the fire he had a few years ago?  Or maybe that's
    why it's still for sale.  "Slight fire damage"
    

.. I heard the new 1997 Corvette is going to be hard to get. A dealer in
Nashua,NH told me only 9 were coming into the state and about 600 would be
made this year. Anyone heard the same?

   I'd guess that there would be a waiting line for this new model given 
all the great positive publicity it's gotten in the Rags.
   I can't imagine that Chevrolet would build anywhere fewer than about 40K 
of these things this year. They couldn't justify only 600 being built to 
the big brass at GM. After all they are not Ferrari, they are in business 
to make money and at the price they are asking, they'll have to build quite 
a few to get the returns expected.
  If this guy was getting 9 and there were only 600 being built, there 
would be an awful lot of dealers that would get nothing. I don't think they 
would stand for one guy getting so many.
   I understand that they are also building an export model. At last! That 
could boost production by 25-50% and keep per unit costs down.
  Has anyone heard about the call back? Apparently they found that their 
suppliers improperly heat treated one of the suspension links and it could 
break under heavy load.
  I'd love to get my hands on one but I'll have to wait a few more years 
and be satisfied with my '77.

  Bob

    
        Shortages?  yea right!  Both dealers here in town, have one each
    on the showroom floor and they been there for at least a month.
    Daniels Chevrolet even has 2 leftovers from last year.
        The reported "shortage" is just to artifically inflate the price.
    I even get a better laugh when I drive by Winslow VW BMW and see all
    those new V6 James Bond sports cars (i dont know the model name) they
    have not moved in over a month! I drive by every day and all they do is
    keep washing the dust off of them.
    
    -john

I also heard there was a recall on them(?) Something wrong with the
transmission?