Conference napalm::musclecars

    WANTED: 1969 SUPER BEE
            --------------
    The vette I wanted is gone. So now I want to restore a super
    bee.I dont want it to be to rough .Something between 1500 & 3000
    383 or 440 prefer 4spd but auto is o.k. I am willing to pay 100.00
    finders fee for the right ride. I will travel any where in N.E.
    PLEASE any help will be greatly appreciated.send mail to Val Denine@wmo
    

    
    
    All right guys.  I'm in the middle of driving a hard bargain and I've
    lost the youthfull wimsy that used to allow me to spend fortunes on
    sh*tboxes.
    
    What would you pay for a 69 GTX Conv factory 4spd. Factory Red.
    Factory 440 hipo. Build sheet, tags all there. Missing air grabber.
    decent interior. Original paint. Condition 4. Minimum 5 or 6 grand
    to make it look decent. At least 10 to make it real nice. Let me know
    as soon as you can before I write a check.
    
    		- A.J.

    
    
     If you like it , Price should not matter.  If you are going to Buy
    the GTX to sell to someone else after you have put lets say $10k into
    the car...forget it...YOU NEVER get what YOU put into a car $$$.  I
    have seen so many people trying to sell their cars, show all their
    receits....and ending up Eating their shirts !
    
     4 condition, and it drives...I would offer $1400.00, Since I am a FORD
    fanatic...maybe $999.99 ....
    
    GTX's are scarce , and if a Convertable...Grab it.  They were very
    notorious for ROT !
    
    /Bob
    

    
    
    Bob, I should mention that it's one of 146 hipo 440 GTX convts for that
    year. It's one of 30 Red cars so where talkin a bit more than a couple
    grand, even in the condition its in. I'm probably going to try to make
    a deal, I'm just looking for a little moral support. 
    
    Hey, if anyone is interested in a 69 Judge RAIII, 4spd, original paint
    build sheet. Condition 4. Let me know.
    
    				- A.J.

    
    
      Yea, #1, #2 condition would bring about 16k...just a guess.
    
    /me again
    

    
    
    The price on a #1 car would be undeterminable because I doubt there
    are any in #1 condition. Being factory red (1 of 30) with all documentation
    this car in #2 condition would be right around 20K, maybe a bit more,
    maybe a bit less because of the economy.  There are two problems,
    one the guy wants top dollar in a soft market, secondly the restoration
    costs would out weigh the final product. I'm constantly amazed at how
    few people realize what it costs to do a job right. Especially people
    trying to sell rare but condition 4 muscle cars. 
    
    			- A.J.

  Since you're passing, do you mind me asking his asking price?

    
    
    A.J
    
     That is why I said "If it is what yu like, and you want it because you
    really Love this car, and not afraid of Big $$ restoration Costs
    associated with this car...Then do it !
    
     You have to determine 
    
      1.  What are my plans for the car
    
          A. use it as a daily driver.
          B.  use it Just for Car Shows.
          C.  Do a Complete Frame Off restoration and Trailer the Car.
               (This is National Show Car #1..No driving it)
    
      2.  How much money would it take approx. to restore to my above 
            mentioned goals.
    
      3.  If I ever plan on selling this car....I may never get 100% of
           the restoration costs, and Buying price for which was spent
           on the Car.
    
    
      There is a Guy in Oxford who has a Conv. GTX, he is restoring, but
    all I see is the car just sitting there in the New England Weather, he
    probaly had big dreams...and ran out of the $$ cash !
    
    /Bob
    
    

    
    I agree with you Bob. I love the car, but in general I love everything.
    Last week I loved that Judge. You can only afford to dump money into
    so many things. It's alot easier to justify if you think you might
    be able to unload it and make a buck. This is very tough in the current
    market. 
    
    FYI, The  guy wants 9k, to use his words "absolutely firm". Of course
    he told me he would take 8k. I think 7 or 7.5 cash might buy it.
    I have serious reservations about even giving him 6. 
    
    To make the car a decent driver (show car would be way to much)
    you would have to plan on spending
    
    air grabber hood and mechanism == 600 bucks.
    two new bumpers	== 500 bucks.
    4 tires == 200 bucks.
    new top == 500 bucks.
    New carb == 400 bucks.
    New exhaust == 400 bucks.
    Misc Engine work (not including a rebuild)  == 700 bucks.
    Factory shifter == ??
    factory console == ??
    Redo one seat == 150 bucks
    New rug == 200 bucks
    Rebuild front end 400 bucks.
    Brakes ?
    Tranny ?
    rearend ?
    
      Now, on top of that your looking at a minimum of 3K to do the body and
    paint. That would be for just a decent job.
    
    Also, there is a ton of little time consuming things that would have to
    be done. You could dump 500 hours in easy.
    
    Hey! I see why I talked myself out of it.   - A.J.
    
           
    

    
    
     Good choice.  Now if the Guy was to ask 1K....then I would grab it !
    
        /Bob
    

    
    
    I talked to the guy who owns the GTX again today. He's a nice guy but
    like you or I he wants to get as much as he can for the car. The 
    thing that he said that was funny was that He had just recently had
    offers for 8K but he would let me have it for 7.2K cause he wanted
    it to go to a good home. I said thanks but I would have to pass.
    
    		- A.J.

    Getting a car such as this for 1K is a dream - somebody pinch that guy
    a few notes back. Some rotten old Ford maybe, but we're talking a real
    car here !!
    
    So much for starting a war, now back to the "X"
    
    8k is steep for this car needing this much. If it was at least "complete"
    but needing TLC it wouldn't be so bad. I think too many people figure
    the buyer will do most of the work and keep the cost down. These days,
    with all the good resto's around and all the documentation, it's just
    not possible in most cases to do the work yourself and crank out a
    platinum resto to compete with the millionaire's down the street that
    was done by a pro. I'd estimate this car to be worth in the 20K range
    after a decent resto, given the rarity and the fact it's a ragtop. Knock
    off 4 - 5k without the ragtop. When I say "decent resto" I mean one
    that can compete in events such as the Mopar Nats, place well and then
    be driven home. I see no point in pouring money into a car and then not
    driving it.
    
    So much for my 2 cents.
    
    A few years back a friend of mine was trying to sell a 68 440 auto GTX
    ragtop. He was asking 4k with all new FACTORY sheet metal - and I do
    mean "ALL" - and a spare ragtop Satellite for parts. He had bought it
    off a guy who had planned to restore it, bought the sheet metal while
    it was still available and had then lost interest. Anyhow, my friend
    had a few nibbles but no takers. Now that he has his law degree and is
    raking in the $$$ in commercial real estate he has no need for the cash
    so the car's sitting in the barn awaiting the day "his" interest
    returns and the day the value of the car exceeds the cost of the resto. 
    
    
    Stan
    

    
    I'm lookin to convert a 1970 Ply Road Runner from an automatic to a
    4-speed. Any fans out there done such a conversion. What all is
    involved. What I know:
    
    	1. Need to add pedals and linkage under dash. (I believe that this
    	   is a simple bolt-in)
    
    	2. need to add linkage (clutch torque rod???) that connects clutch
    	   pedal rod to linkage to throwout bearing. (Any welding here)
    
    	3. Need to add section to floorpan tunnel to support 4-speed
           shifter and boot. (so it's not a hack job)
    
    	4. Need the usual stuff such as flywheel, clutch, bellhousing, Etc.
    
    
    What I don't know:
    
    	1. Any welding required? (other than tunnel)
    	2. Any got'cha's to watch out for?
    
    I once converted a 69 baracuda from an auto to 4-speed and it was
    more or less painless. I have heard some rumbles that B-bodies have
    some Z bracket or something that needs to be welded in. But at the
    moment I do not know what there talking about. Thanks for any help
    
    
    
    
    						/Dave
    

    B bodies with manual transmissions have a frame mounted bracket to
     hold the pivot ball for the clutch "torque rod" you mention. Auto cars
    do not have this bracket. Also, if youve got a 440 with steel crank, 
    you could end up with a balancing problem. Seems to me that 440 steel
    crank engines were externally balanced and changing to flywheel, clutch
    and pressure plate from torque converter could affect balancing. 
    
      

I think the 440 steel crank is neutral balanced.  The cast crank may be 
externally balanced.  The damper will usually have a protrusion on one side 
if it is externally balanced.  I have it written down someplace.

The 400 uses external balancing, and the 383 is neutral balanced.

    The 440 steel crank balancing procedures involve using "bob" weights.
    Does this make it neutral or externally balanced? BTW, the cast 440
    crank uses the damper with the lump on one side.

>    The 440 steel crank balancing procedures involve using "bob" weights.
>    Does this make it neutral or externally balanced? BTW, the cast 440
>    crank uses the damper with the lump on one side.


I believe you're referring to the bob weights that simulate 
piston/connecting rod weight.

The lump on the cast crank means external balance.  The lump *is* the 
external balance weight.

    I have a line on a 69 road runner.Yes the one listed in the for sale
    note.I have a deposit on it.but haven't picked it up.Heres the question
    I just found out from a friend, that a common practice for mounting a 
    4 spd to a 440 motor, that doesn't have th provisions for a pilot
    bearing would be to lob off about 1" on the input shaft of the tranny.
    So I guess what I am asking is?How do you tell if the crank is drilled
    for a pilot bearing.The car supposedly needs a clutch.I don't have a
    problem with this .But man I'd be more than stewed if I brought the
    car home from a 6 hr journey just to find.I have a junk tranny and
    there wouldnt be a way to hook up a 4 gear because the crank isnt
    drilled for one.The actual problem he says is that the bearing falls
    off of the clutch fork.All that is needed is a new fork and maybe a
    clutch.What do you guys think?should I get my deposit back ?Are all
    cranks drilled for pilot bearings?If not is there an adaptor available
    to link a 4 gear to that motor ?
    Thanks   
                                                                                      

    I'm getting ready to convert my Runner to a 4-speed. I asked many people
    many questions, before I decided to do it. What I learned is that if
    you have a 440 block that is a 71 or older, the crank is all set to
    accept the pilot bearings. So if you have an older 440, you should be
    all set. The codes to look for which are stamped on the top of the
    block, forward of the intake manifold valley pan, driver's side are:

                                 A = 1965
                                 B = 1966
                                 C = 1967
                                 D = 1968
                                 E = 1969
                                 F = 1970 
                                 G = 1971


    Hope this helps.

    Thanks,That helps me a great deal.The motor is an "E"coded motor.
    I am not really up on the mopar stuff,so when I heard about  the crank
    stuff I got a little nervous .
    BEEP! BEEP!
    

    This morning at the Meineke Muffler shop in Acton at 
    Routes 27/111, saw a nicely restored or original Superbird.
    Talk about visual impact......
    
    Tom

    If the problem you are discussing is the bearing falling off the cluch
    fork then you are discussing the "throwout bearing" the bearing that
    resides in the crank is the "pilot bushing" The two are totally
    separate and provide different functions. If the transmission is in
    the car then it all fits. You may have a tranny with part of the
    pilot shaft chopped off. As long as it was not chopped off too short
    all should work. When I recently pulled the transmission out of my
    GTX I was surprized to find that it had the shaft chopped off. God
    knows why but since this is not the original tranny or motor, 23 years
    can summon up a lot of hackery.
    
    
    
    						/Dave
    

    
    I would be suspicious of any "clutch related" problems. The pilot
    bushing supports the front of the transmission input shaft and insures
    that the clutch plate is centered on the flywheel. If the pressure
    plate clamps the clutch plate when it is not centered then the input
    shaft will orbit. This will wipe out the transmission input bearing in
    a hurry. The good news is that the repair process is not that
    difficult. Any good machine shop can drill the crank (removed from the
    engine) for a pilot bushing and you can replace the input shaft to the
    trans easily. I would ask that the seller prove that this "clutch
    problem" is not a hack job or maybe adjust the price acordingly.
    
    my $.02
    
    Don B
     

>    separate and provide different functions. If the transmission is in
>    the car then it all fits. You 

Not necessarily.  The Road Runner 383 I bought (came out of a '69 and was 
a correct 383 magnum engine for that car) had a 4 speed behind it.  The 
input shaft had been hacked off  --  but not enough was removed.  
Result:  Thrust bearing on the crank was shot and the crank was blue.  The 
hole in the end of the crank was blue as was the end of the pilot shaft. 
(but that could have been from the fine torch work)  The transmission input 
bearing was blue as well.  The crank was bent, too but it's hard to tell 
what caused that to happen, probably an accident.  In any event, the pilot 
shaft wasn't cut short enough and everything was bound up.

    Cutting the nose off the pilot shaft is a cheap and stupid way of doing
    things. As someone already alluded to, this serves a purpose of lining
    things up and KEEPING THEM THAT WAY under operation.
    
    If this shaft has been hacked off, it is NOT a simple thing to correct.
    On a standard A833 tranny, the front bearing is smaller than the gear,
    hence the gear cannot be removed from the front, the whole tranny has
    to be disassembled. On the Hemi tranny (which I doubt you have) its a
    different story - the bearing is slightly larger than the gear and
    subsequently can be removed from the front by removing the retainer and
    pulling out the gear.
    
    However, while the standard gear is harder to remove, they are more
    readily available (used) and probably cheaper. The Hemi one, while
    easier to remove will run you big bucks new or used (if you manage to
    locate either).
    
    In the long run it would probably be cheaper to replace the whole
    tranny. Standard A833's have been running under $200 at swap meets.
    Make sure you get the right one. You'll want the long one for a
    "B" body and the correct tailstock for a '69 Plymouth. E-bodies and
    Dodges have a different crossmember mounting location and/or shifter
    mount. If necessary though, the tailstocks are easily interchangeable.
    
	To ensure proper operation when things are going back together you
    have to check the runout of the tranny hole in the bellhousing using a
    dial indicator mounted to the flywheel. If things aren't lined up
    within tollerance, Chrysler sells offset dowels of varying offsets to
    get things right. These are the 2 pins sticking out of the back of the
    block. Chrysler manuals detail how to do this alignment and what the
    tolerances are.
    
    Good luck.
    
    Stan
    

	Anyone happen to have any details on the 68-69 Ragtop "B" body
sitting beside New England Speed equipment? It's visible from 495 south.
I assume it's a Satelite and not a Road Runner, although it looks like it's
got a Runner hood on it.

Rick

       I was just down there last week checking out the
    '68 Firebird next to it.  I believe it belongs to Ed,
    from Ed's Auto Repair, located in the building behind
    N.E. Speed.  I did not look at the car closely, but
    the firebird is for sale so maybe the Mopar is too.
    
    Rich

    
    Re: .26 The car is a Satellite. I called about it last year and it
    	sounds like it needs some work. After thinking about it I decided
    	it wasn't worth the effort/time for me. There's not many of them
    	around though - take a look see if you're interested.
    
    	Lucky Higgy
    

	I took a quick look at the Satellite ragtop the other day.
It's rough, real rough... Doesn't help that the driver's window is
left open. The guy says $1300.00 for it. It looks like it could
be saved with a very large amount of work. My problem with that is
that even after all the $$$, it's still a Satellite and not a Roadrunner.

	I was surprised to see the car had electric windows.....

Rick

ps. The '70 Charger R/T in the same lot sure looked like it had potential!

    re: -.*
    
    I ran across a 1969 Road Runner Convertible for sale that is probably
    in a 2.5 condition; the qtrs are rough but the interior, top, and drive
    train are in great shape! a lot of new parts! he's asking $6500 numbers
    match and I believe it's under 80K miles! I doubt he'll go under that
    either - the car's worth more and he knows it! 
    
    It's a 383 car  T727
    
    If anyone is interested, send mail (BSS::BOREN) and I'll give the phone
    #
    
    rich
    
    Memphis TN
    

	Driving down 495 south the other day, I noticed that Ed of
Ed's Auto behind New England Speed has placed prices on the windshields
of the cars he has facing 495. The '70 Charger R/T had 3k plastered on
the WS, and yes I managed to keep my vehicle on the road! :-)

	Isn't the market value of a real Charger R/T of this vintage
in nice shape up in the 15k range? If I remember correctly the body on
this car was in pretty nice shape. Don't know if it runs.... Anyone 
know?

thanks,

Rick

ps. Of course even this would not cure my Challenger/Cuda ragtop jones!

    
    
    it sounds awful cheap...is it a roller (no M/T)? However there are many
    things that de-value a ride such as this.
    The $15K chargers are condition 1 ready for show ;-)
    there are a lot of 68-71 Chargers around for 4-6K depending on 
    their combinations/model - in good shape.
    my 2� worth
    
    rich
    73 Cuda' black on black (original 318 just rolled over the 100K mark)
             
    

	I just could not stand it any  longer... Forces beyond my control
sent me to Ed's Auto repair on my trip from MRO to MKO yesterday.........

	I took a look at the '70 Charger R/T that now has a price of $2500
on the windshield. Here's the scoop/.....

	It's a real R/T, original 440, Auto. It runs VERY well. I was truly
amazed how nice the motor sounded. Those are the good points... Bad points
are the underside! A real mess.. My quick glance on a previous visit was
completely wrong, cuz what I thought might be a half decent body is actaully
a rust/bondo bucket. The quarters and the doors were filled, the rear pan
is non-existant, the subframe in the rear resembles swiss cheese. It's not
that the car could not be saved, but the work would be immense. If someone
had the time/tools/inclination and a parts donor car like a Coronet the end
result could be real nice... Lotsa work... A real shame for that wonderful,
lumpy 440...

Rick

Still looking for a BB Challenger or Cuda ragtop project!

>>> Still looking for a BB Challenger or Cuda ragtop project!

	Didn't help at all, that after writing this note on my way
back to the office at lunchtime I saw an absolutely gorgeous, Plum
Crazy Cuda ragtop cruising along on Continental Blvd!