Conference hbahba::cam_sports

    
    Cards tried out Waymer yesterday.  Apparently he had a VERY slow time
    in the 40, so it doesn't seem like they are too interested.  with
    Massey still unsigned, and MacDonald in SF, it would have been nice to
    have him.
    
    They've sent ssomeone to Ga. to present a new contract to Hearst. 
    There is a slight chance he'll be in uniform for the game this weekend.
    
    BoC

    Who's Waymer?  I thought they tried out Fulcher.  
    
    Brews, thanks for the compliment (I think), but you better get your
    whiny, sappy crow note ready for 50.  You aren't allowed to go out on a
    limb like a real mainly fan in here.

Who's playing Tight End for the Cards?

TTom

    Yeah, didn't Waymer pass away?
    
    

    
    Waymer, Fulcher what's the diff.  Don't need no steenkin cdrow note
    cause the Cards will drool this year.  They will go undefeated, look
    how they haven't losted yet this preseason, stomping the former
    defending Super Bowl Champs da Bears!!!
    
    Hail, they're so good, look at the graphics I made for them:
    
          _________________________
         <  ____________________||||************|
    
    
ARK!  ARK!! (that's the sound a Cardinal makes, for you uninformed idjits)
    
    
    brews

re: .0

>and will undoubtably when the  SuperBowl.

ok Brews, what does "when the Superbowl" mean

The Crazy Met

    Ok, I'll bite... does Beurlein ROOL!!!!

    
    If I knew how to edit my notes, that would say win the Super
    Bowl.  The Cards have four QB's on their roster now, and that is enough
    for them to win it all!
    
    brews

I can't wait to see Brews entry in the Crow Cafe when the Cardinals
fall far short of his prediction.

The Crazy Met

    
    Beurlein has always been the best QB in the NFL, it's just that others
    didn't know that, so he didn't get a chance.  He should beat out
    Chandler for the starting job, as Chandler's been injured.
    
    brews

    >I can't wait to see Brews entry in the Crow Cafe when the Cardinalsfall
    >far short of his prediction.
    >
    >The Crazy Met
    
    OK, I will go out on the limb here and GUARANTEE that the Cards will
    win the Super Bowl, barring injuries, of course.
    
    boC

    Cardinals = Patriots of the West.
    
    Nuff said.
    
    NAZZ

    Well Nazz has given them the KOD.  They'll win their 9 games and save
    Bugel's job.

What's the latest story I read about Timm Rosenbach retiring because he was
royally pissed at the cards for putting him in the last play of the last game
last year just so the fans could boo him?

His moma says he didn;t retire to ride in the rodeo that's just what the press
decided to print as the angle..

Metz

>His moma says he didn;t retire to ride in the rodeo that's just what the press
>decided to print as the angle..


	Thought I'd go down to Tulsa, to ride in the rodeo
	Red beans and rice sure would be nice, 'cross the 
	   Mississippi River though,
	And it's a long way back to Memphis, Mississippi River is muddy and
	   wide,
	But it don't seem like much with sweet, Lousiana waitin' on the
	   other side.....


Oh, sorry, that's Charlie Daniels, not Tim "Don't Boo Me I'm a Good Guy"
Rosenbach....


'Saw

    
    Timmmmy's mom said that Bugel put Timmmmy in the game to make him look
    bad.  She forgot to mention that Chandler had gotten hurt on the
    previous play, the Cards were losing 7-3, and inside TB's 50, with only
    Tony Sacca (who hadn't ever touched the ball in that, his rookie
    season) as the other alternative at qb.  
    
    Yes, Joe Bugel must be a real bad person for trying to win that game. 
    He ruined Timmmy's life, that Bugel guy, just trying to win a football
    game.  Is that good enough reason to make some look bad in front of
    12,000 screaming hometown fans?  Shame on him!
    
    brews

Aw, hell, it could be worse.

Timmy could be stuck in the well, and everyone is so busy with the
fire in the barn they wouldn't be listening to Lassie trying to tell
them that.....


'Saw

 >   His moma says he didn;t retire to ride in the rodeo that's just what
 >   the press decided to print as the angle..
    
    His mommy should be kinder to the press.  There was another rumor going
    around about Timmmy ('saw, don't forget the extra m) that the press
    didn't pursue, and really would have made his life miserable.
    
    boC
    

    THe talks with Hearst have broken down.  There will be a major uprising
    if they don't sign him, especially with Massey and Hill not in campp,
    and losing MacDonald.  The Bidwells have always been known for being
    cheap, and this would be the straw to break the camel's back.
    
    Tim McKyer (ugh!! is this guy following me around?) had a tryout
    yesterday, probably as a replacement to Massey.  He is such a bad
    lockerroom influence, he's had no offers as a FA.  If they guy is too
    much of a jerk for the Falcons to sign, he must be real bad.
    
    boC  

    boC, for future reference, here's what whiny crow notes look like.
    
                <<< CAM::$1$DUA5:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS.NOTE;1 >>>
                                  -< SPORTS >-
================================================================================
Note 50.52                 The OFFICIAL CROW CAFE note                 52 of 152
FRETZ::HEISER "raise your voice in shouts of joy"     5 lines  21-JUN-1993 15:12
                                -< no big deal >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Unlike some in here, I work and go to school fulltime.  Now that I'm
    back...
    
    I'll take a Chicago pizza with mine.  Congrats to Da Bulls, your
    experience saved you.
    
                <<< CAM::$1$DUA5:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS.NOTE;1 >>>
                                  -< SPORTS >-
================================================================================
Note 50.68                 The OFFICIAL CROW CAFE note                 68 of 152
FRETZ::HEISER "raise your voice in shouts of joy"    18 lines  21-JUN-1993 21:49
           -< attend another Whine Festival, this one is cancelled >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Metz, maybe you should do a global substitution on that reply for
    Chicago->Phoenix and Phoenix->Seattle.
    
>the praise I've been heaping on the Suns all season Chicago is the better team
>and deserved to win.  Pour me some suds and I'll have a side order of polish
    
    But I seriously don't believe Chicago was the better team or that they
    deserved to win.  The play on the court proved that there isn't much
    separating these 2 teams and experience is the only difference.  What I
    posted is sufficient to me and that's all that counts as far as I'm
    concerned.  If you don't like it, deal with it.
    
    BTW - do fans and easterners out there still subscribe to the notion
    that the Eastern Conference final was "the championship"?  Or did
    Phoenix gain a measure of respect for the West?  Or did they just gain
    a measure of respect for themselves?  No baiting, I'm honestly curious.
    
    Mike

    Mac, that's pretty low of a mod to repost notes without the author's
    permission.

It is only mail that may not be posted wothout permission. Notes in
a non-restricted conference may be posted elsewhere.

The Crazy Met

    I'm not a mod (in here) though and wasn't warned of it.  I've had
    plenty crow over this, not to mention abuse.

    If you have the policies you refer to, please forward them to me.  As
    TCM said, the only policies I am aware of are for posting of mail.  If
    you knew about them, then why did you repost some of Tommy's?
    
    As for rebeating the dead horse, I point you to reply number 2 of this
    topic.

    
    Ain't gonna be no need for me to enter the crow notes anyway, as I said
    in .11, where I guartantee a SB victory, just like Joe Willy.  They
    gotta sign Hearst though.
    
    BoC

>    If you have the policies you refer to, please forward them to me.  As
>    TCM said, the only policies I am aware of are for posting of mail.  If
    
    Will do.
    
>    you knew about them, then why did you repost some of Tommy's?
    
    I was testing your command of moderation skills.
    
>    As for rebeating the dead horse, I point you to reply number 2 of this
>    topic.
    
    that's an endless chain.  A good harassment deserves another...

    
    You can't re-post notes *within the same conference*?  I think that's
    what's being done every time a note is extracted for a response...
    
    glenn
    

>    
>    You can't re-post notes *within the same conference*?  I think that's
>    what's being done every time a note is extracted for a response...
>    

I do not believe there are any restrictions within the same conference.

I think the restrictions start when you start re-posting to other conferences.


'Saw
    

no restrictions to other conferences either unless the note is
originally posted in a memebers-only conference.

The Crazy Met

    
    Cards still haven't signed HEarst, Massey, or Hill.  No movement seems
    to be made either.  Cards are the only team NOT to have signed their
    1st rounder and have the most holdouts.  Now for the bad news.  They
    have the fewest guys in the NFL signed through next year, so we'll get
    to see this all again, a year from now.
    
    Bugel should be putting his resume' together now.
    
    boC

      Are you guys going to watch the game tommorrow night in that 100
    degree oven?
    
      Tim

    Yeah, we want to see them repeat their 6 TD - 0 TD thrashing of the
    Donks.

        Oh you must be talking about that simmulated scrimmage.
    
      From what I've heard,  the 1st unit, with the exception of maybe
    zimmerman,  will only play the 1st series or 2.  Of course I'm talking
    about the Broncos.
    
      Phoenix is on a mission this year,  and I don't even think they will
    sit at the bottom of the NFC east this year.  I know,  very bold,  but
    the odds are in their favor.  The jints will most likely bring up the
    rear...
    
      Tim

    Yeah, that was the scrimmage.  I liked the Donk's line about '...we
    didn't know they were going to keep score.'
    
    Phoenix isn't going anywhere without Hearst.  Chris Chandler, if
    healthy, will start.
    
    Tonight will be a mud bowl.  It's been raining since last night with no
    end in sight today.  We're catching the edge of tropical storm Hillary,
    that is currently over Mexico.

re: .37

Compared to Brews prediction nothing else is bold.

The Crazy Met

      True TCM,  I forgot about that.  It going from that extreme heat to
    soggyville that will do it to a person. 
    
      Mud bowl huh,  real mans game!
    
      Tim

Who will it be, Chandler or Beuerlein at QB when the Cards open
the season this Sunday?  Beuerlein's stats looked good from the game the
other night.

Thanks,

Doug

Steve Beuerlein is the starter about mid-season he'll get nailed and Chandler 
will fill in nicely. 

    Chandler is hurt.  Beuerlein will start by default.  Hearst is also
    into the fold now.  Now the Cards should sign Massey and Hill, pronto.
    Cards open in Philly on Sunday.
    
    The Cards shellacked the Donks for a total of 76-19 in their 2
    preseason contests.
    
    BTW - Hearst also had Richard Howell (Emmitt Smith's agent).  Suns
    first-round pick, Malcolm Mackey, is also in the Howell corner.  That
    dude is going to have an awesome year.
    
    Mike

Thrill Hill is holding out?


Metz

    No Eric Hill, the ILB.  It looks like ex-Sun Devil, Brad Wallerstadt
    (rookie), has made the team because of Hill's absence.  Ken Harvey has
    been playing inside.
    
    WR Ernie Jones was made expendable by Gary Clark and was traded to the
    Lams for a draft pick.
    
    Mike

    BTW - they announced today that Hearst won't start, but will play. 
    Rookie Ron Moore will start.  They promised a starting QB announcement
    for tomorrow.

    
>>    Cards still haven't signed HEarst, Massey, or Hill......
    					 ^^^^^^
    
    
    ??????
    
    I didn't know Gin had a second job?  Will she play with the players
    even without (ahem) any financial arrangement?
    
    Will she have to wear underwear or won't they let her out of her room?
    
    This is getting confusing!!!!!
    
    I remain,
    wondering if she has any smelly, unwashed clothes for sale?
    Kev
    
  

    I guess she'll be star gazing by watching the other team's backfield?

    
    Mike,
    
    Who did Phoenix name as starting QB ?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Scott
    

    The Iggles and Cards had a contest yesterday to see who could play the
    worst.  The Cards won.  In their defense though, the refs took away a
    TD off a Herschel Walker fumble that would've stood under instant
    replay.  The Iggles didn't look that great at all.

    
    #$^#$$ing CLEMsuck refs stole a game from MY Cards.  It's obvious that
    Pete Rozelle and Al Davis are in this together to make sure that the
    bested team in the NFL don't win it all.  The foreskins are in deep
    trouble nexted week.
    
    On a serious note, is Joe Bugel the dumbest coach in the NFL, now that
    Handley is gone?  Why the E%^$ did he pull Beulein in the 2nd half, 
    right after he started getting the team moving, then puts in Chandler, 
    who reinjures hisankle.  Late in the 2nd quarter, he brings in HEarst, 
    who hasn't played a down at all in preseason.  It was a P E R F E C T 
    time to try a play action pass, as everyone was expecting them to run 
    Hearst up the middle.  Of course, that's what Joe did, a run up the middle
    with Hearst, and he gained 3 yards (got 0 on his next 6 carries, always
    running straight up the middle).
    
    
    boC
    At least we know, Joe is gone.  

    You know who fumbled the ball that Lorenzo Lynch ran in for a TD?
    

    Re: -1
    
    Which one?  Lynch did that twice, one was called back.  The new rookie
    back for the Iggles muffed the one that did count.  

    The one that did count... thanks... must have been Hebron.
    

    yeah that's the dude: Von? Hebron.

    then there was the blown call in the Oilscum-Saints game, the so called
    sumble, returned fer a touchdown.  Hell, the guy had been down fer
    almost a day when they pulled the ball loose.
    
    Guess maybe replay wasn't so bad after all, eh???
    
    (8^)
    
    JaKe
    

>    then there was the blown call in the Oilscum-Saints game, the so called
>    sumble, returned fer a touchdown.  Hell, the guy had been down fer
>    almost a day when they pulled the ball loose.
>    
>    Guess maybe replay wasn't so bad after all, eh???
    

Refs blew that one badly....really badly....

Gotta get those guys to Lenscrafters....

    I don't get it.  Do they have that much of a turnover in the
    officiating crews?  They shouldn't be that bad from one year to the
    next.

    RE: The Fumble
    
    Under the old rules, the non-call still wouldn't have been a TD because
    the ball was blown dead by the whistle. If they would have gottne the
    call correct the 1st time it would have been a TD. Replay could have
    only given the ball to the Cards.
    
    Other than that, the Cards D didn't do much all day. Everytime the
    Eagles offense stalled, it was because of something stupid they did to
    themselves.
    
    Dennis Faust
    

    
>    Other than that, the Cards D didn't do much all day. Everytime the
>    Eagles offense stalled, it was because of something stupid they did to
>    themselves.
    
    Huh?  The Eagles offense did little all day.  Everytime they scored it
    was because of something stupid done by the Cards defense or the
    Clemsuck refs.  Had the Cards receivers hung onto the ball a few
    times, the outcome would have been different.
    
    boC   

    Brews, bold pre-season prediction is looking better and better all the
    time - NOT!
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    re: .61
    
    I guess that Cunningham's performance was all because of the stupid
    Cardinal defense. Same with Hebron's 6 yds a carry average (when he
    wasn't fumbling). I thought that the stupid Eagles penalties stopped
    the Eagles more than anything the Cardinals did. 
    
    Also, the only Cardinal receiver that I noticed having trouble catching
    the ball was Gary "whoops" Clark.
    
    Regarding the Cards Defense, who the heck is Lynch and what's his deal
    with the cheapshot to Cunningham after his TD run. The first shot
    (trying to drive him into the end zone turf) was marginal, but the
    second shot to his back was blatant and should have drawn a flag.
    
    Dennis Faust
    

    
    Cards proved that they can play with the big boys, it's just the refs
    that can stop them.  Superbowl still is on the horizon for Phoenix.
    
    Hal, er boC 

    I noticed a couple Iggles' linemen dishing out cheapshots to Eric Swann
    & Co. as well.  Additionally, Iggles' coach Kotite called the Cards
    cheapshot artists (i.e., get a clue Rich).  The next game in Tempe will
    not be pretty.
    
    BTW Brews - KTAR reported last night that Regis Philbin has picked the
    Cards to go all the way and win the Super Bowl.  At least you're not
    alone now.
    
    Mike

    The alleged cheap shots at Swann were in retaliation (sp) to his cut of
    Brian Baldinger after a play, when Baldinger's back was turned. (i.e.,
    get a clue Heiser). The league is indeed reviewing the film of the
    incident. BTW- The Eagles got one of their dumb penalties for that
    retaliation. They should know by now that you need to get the first
    shot in to avoid the flag, Swann certainly does.
    
    Dennis Faust
    
    

    Dennis, I think you're confusing the Swann incident with the other
    incident that happened late in the game just before Lynch ripped the
    ball out of Hebron's hands.

    
    	So, what is the deal with Hearst???  Is he going to start this
    week?  Is he going to be the TD man there or what???
    
    	Hal
    
    		Oh yea, I saw that....er...
    

    Yes, Bugel announced Hearst will start.  Garrison told them Monday
    morning that he needed more snaps.

    Hop on to the Cards bandwagon early folks, before all the good seats
    are taken.  You won't see any comments like the following in here this
    week:
    
    
  >               <<< Note 132.62 by 15724::FRANCUS "Mets in '94" >>>    
  >
  >  Brews, bold pre-season prediction is looking better and better all the    
  >  time - NOT!        
    
  >  The Crazy Met   
    
    Or, any whiney Eagles fans complaining about cheapshots (note-NFL
    cleared Swann of Rich Kotites charges, imagine a team with Andre
    'Dirty' Waters complaining about another team's cheapshots).  
    
    At least the Redskins are men enough to admit they got beat, even with
    the refs on their side.
    
    Next week, the Cowgrils.  Would anyone have thunk the defending champs
    being 0-3?
    
    boC

    I only watched the first half, but I swear the Cards and Skins switched
    uniforms.  Whoever was wearing the Phoenix colors sure put on a clinic
    in that half on smash-mouth-ball-control-NFC-East football.  The Skins
    were down and out before Rypien had to leave the game.
    
    If the Cards can sustain that level of play, things are gonna get crazy
    around here real fast as they did for the Suns.  The Cards' history is
    against them though.
    
    You just had to love that hit Chuck Cecil laid on Middleton.  That made 
    your teef rattle just watching it.  The D has been playing like an NFC
    East Defense too.  Stopping the run, pressuring the QB, I was shocked.
    
    And Garrison Hearst showed up.  He rushed 22 times for 77 yards (3.5
    per), and the Cards rushed for 150 as a team against the Skins.  Gary
    Clark got the better of Darrell Green as well.  Total team effort.

    Again, the Cecil hit on Middleton was a spear and illegal...

    I thought he hit him with the upper front part of the mask/helmet, not
    the top.  No flags were thrown either.

    
    
      From what I saw he lead with the crown of his helmet which is
    againts the rules.
    

    Did Doc Rivers get called for a foul when he went after KJ?  That must
    have been clean too...

    
    Even though Brews will be insufferable if the Cards beat Dallas next
    week, I still would love to see the Cowbows suck egg one more time. 0-3
    yeah that would look realy good next to Dallas in the standings.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

      I would like to see Dallas go under .500 for the season.  
    
      Tim

    re: NFL clearinf Swann on the cheap shot
    
    According to the NFL, there wasn't any fumble that the Cardinals
    returned for a TD. They are obviously perfect and necer make mistakes.
    ;*)
    
    Dennis Faust
    

    
     Hello,
    
      Sorry my question is way off the topic.I thought I'll ask here
    instead of RV Conference to get a quick answer.
    What is the driving distance/time from Phoenix to Tucson ? (I stick to
    speed limit (55 mph ?)).
    
    Thanks
    ricardo

    
    Yabbut I really don't know but my map indicates the distance to be
    really close to 90 miles so my guess is you're looking at probably
    2 hours.
    
    I remain,
    wondering how accurate my guess is?
    Kev
    

    
     I'll trust your guess Kev. 
    
      TTFN
      ricardo
    

    
    It's about 1 1/2 hours.  Speed limit is 65 out here in the wild west,
    but you can get away with 70, although ya gotta be careful cause they
    got radar and that new laser crap now.
    
    brews McNally

    re: .83
    
    its folks like you on Interstates that are going through no-mans land
    that make me think about supporting the NRA :-)
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    people won't like you if you drive 55, unless of course, you have blue
    hair and are driving a motorhome with Iowa license plates.  Then it's
    sorta expected that you'll drive 23, everywhere, with your blinker on
    for about 47 miles, and a bumpersticker that says "Ask me about my
    grandkids"
    
    brews on bnowbirds

    
     Thanks Brews. I'll stick to 55 mph though. I'm a wimpy, girlymon
     when it comes to fast driving.
    
     thanks loads,
     ricardo 

    Well if you're gonna drive 55 out here in the desert, stay in the
    breakdown lane with the rest of the idle vehicles!
    
    Brews, that note has me rollin'.  You folks have to live here to
    appreciate the beauty of that reply.
    
    I drive ~65 while trekking through the desert and folks are passing me
    like they're at P.I.R.
    
    BTW - People were talking about Chuck Cecil's hit last night on the
    Joe Bugel show.  The replays show he hit with the forehead of his
    helmet.
    
    Mike

>     Thanks Brews. I'll stick to 55 mph though. I'm a wimpy, girlymon
>     when it comes to fast driving.
>    
>     thanks loads,
>     ricardo 

The fastest I've ever been on a highway was between 130 and 135 on 
my Ninja.

That, of course, was before I turned 30.

The neatest part about it, though, was when I turned off to grab some
breakfast in this little town, I thought I was doing about 40 down the
main drag.  I looked down and was doing 85......


Personally, I hate 55, and tend to do about 70, because that's what
the interstates were designed for and that's about where I gravitate to....


'Saw

    
    Yabbut ya know how to tell when the 'sawmain's really happy ridin his
    motorcycles?
    
    
    
    
    from the squashed bugs on his teeth!
    
    I remain,
    wondering how da ninj' feels about 'saw riding him?  ;^)
    Kev
    

    BTW - Mark Rypien will be out 3-6 weeks.  No surgery was required. 
    They say he's a fast healer and 3-4 weeks is more realistic.

>    
>    from the squashed bugs on his teeth!
>    

There are two very hard and fast rules I've always had about riding my
motorcycles:

		a) ALWAYS wear a helmet
		b) NEVER, EVER drink ANYTHING alcoholic if you're riding.



With some of the other crazy stuff I used to do, I think those two
rules are the reason why I'm still alive......

Lookin' back on it makes me shudder sometimes.....



That being said, I'm hoping the Cardinals whup the Cowboys but good this
weekend.....


'Saw    

    
    
    
    Oh alright. I'll go 65 mph. I got your point Brews. Should be a good
    place to start to change driving habit. From 5 months of snow/ice covered 
    street driving to Desert driving. 

>    BTW - People were talking about Chuck Cecil's hit last night on the
>    Joe Bugel show.  The replays show he hit with the forehead of his
>    helmet.

Lasted night they showed a similar hit that Lott put on some unlucky
Dolphin. Lott was penalized for it and the Jets complained, mentioning
Cecil's hit and how it wasn't flagged.

I think the league outtap put in some kinda mandatory fine for using the
helmet.

TTom

  >   According to the NFL, there wasn't any fumble that the Cardinals   
  >   returned for a TD. They are obviously perfect and necer make mistakes.   
  >   ;*)        
    
  >   Dennis Faust    
    
    The difference is that the NFL had a chance to take the time to review
    tapes in the Swann case, whereas the officials had to make a snap
    decision.  Had instant replay still been in effect, that Cards might
    have had a touchdown (only thing stopping them would have been a
    whistled dead call by the refs, where the Cards would have at least had
    the ball).
    
    boC

    Yea, and when they had instant reply the refs got every call correct,
    didn't they.? At best, thye appear to guess and it is prudent to take
    everything the NFL does with a HUGE grain of salt. The only thing
    they'er consistent about is their inconsistency.
    
    Dennis Faust
    

    
    I was trying to point out the difference between a snap decision and
    one made after reviewing tapes.  After viewing the snap decision,
    EVERYONE who has seen it has agreed it was a fumble.  If you saw the
    tape, you'd probably agree it was pretty clearcut.
    
    boC 

    I saw they game and I agree it was a fumble. My point is that even
    after reviewing a tape that EVERYONE has seen and agreed it was a
    fumble, under they previous instant replay methods the refs still
    screwed it up and called it no fumble (occasionaly). I would expect the
    same level of "professionalism" from the NFL league officials.
    
    Dennis Faust
    

Where did Randall Hill play college ball?  He looked very good in
last night's loss to the 'boys.

Jerry

    Miami

     what else is new
    
    

    I see Jerry Jones wants Phoenix to be aligned with Dallas in whatever
    divisions the NFL realigns them too.  He wants to preserve the rivalry,
    plus take advantage of all the Dallas fans in the southwest.  New
    Mexico and Arizona have always been large Dallas footholds.  The
    Phoenix crowd is always like a home game for them.
    
    All I can say is that there is no accounting for taste.

    Cecil was fined $30K today for what the NFL called spearing in the game
    against Washington.
    
    Dennis Faust
    

    Cecil was also fined for an incident during a preseason game against
    the Bears this year.  He was also fined twice last season while with
    Green Bay.  I hope this doesn't change his style.  I think you have a
    higher chance of injury in football when tentative.
    
    While they're at it, the Cards should send game film of the hold the
    Cowboy DB put on Ricky Proel in the endzone during the 3rd quarter. 
    The Hershel Walker fumble that was run in for a TD in game 1 would make
    a great sequel.

Actually, you have a higher chance of injury in football when you lead
with the helmet. Playing tentative generally only hurts the player
hisself. Spearing can seriously injure both the spearer and the spearee.

The prolbem that Cecil has is that he hits so hard. You get noticed when
you knock the other guys helmet off while causing him to abruptly leave
his feet. That and the hit itself is against the rules.

TTom

    Xref: nntpd2.cxo.dec.com clari.sports.football:6899
    clari.local.arizona:216
    clari.local.virginia+dc:1503
    Path: nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!uunet!looking!clarinews
    From: [email protected] (UPI)
    Newsgroups:
    clari.sports.football,clari.local.arizona,clari.local.virginia+dc
    Subject: NFL fines Cecil $30K
    Keywords: football, men's professional
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    References: <[email protected]>
    X-Supersedes: <[email protected]>
    Date: Mon, 20 Sep 93 17:22:19 PDT
    Location: arizona, district of columbia
    ACategory: sports
    Slugword: fbn-fines
    Priority: regular
    ANPA: Wc: 281/278; Id: z5779; Sel: xxsfp; Adate: 9-20-N/A; Ver: 0/1; V:
    1stld-writethru
    Approved: [email protected]
    Codes: &sfprxx., &sfpraz., &sfprdc., tnrb....
    Note: (cecil will appeal)
    Lines: 27
    
    	NEW YORK (UPI) -- The National Football League on Monday fined Phoenix
    Cardinals safety Chuck Cecil $30,000 for two acts of flagrant
    unnecessary roughness involving the use of his helmet against the
    Washington Redskins on Sept. 12.
    	Cecil said he would appeal the fine.
    	Cecil previously had been fined by the league for flagrant hits
    against Minnesota Viking receivers Joe Johnson and Jake Reed in the
    final regular-season game of the 1992 season, and again last month for
    using the crown of his helmet to hit Chicago Bears receiver Anthony
    Morgan in a preseason game on Aug. 14.
    	``The latest fine is a result of the two plays in the Washington game
    and in light of Cecil's prior conduct outside the playing rules,'' NFL
    Vice President for Football Development Bill Polian said. ``In the same
    series of downs in the fourth quarter of the Washington game, Cecil
    speared running back Ricky Ervins and tight end Ron Middleton of the
    Redskins. On each play, Cecil used the top of his helmet to strike
    intended receivers in the upper body.''
    	Cecil's lawyer, Ted Updike, however, said the safety was playing the
    game the way the rules allow.
    	``We look forward to the opportunity to present our case to the
    commissioner,'' Updike said in a statement released Monday night. ``The
    video tape analysis proves Chuck Cecil is one tough football player
    playing within the rules.''
    	Player fines collected by the league are contributed in equal parts
    the Brian Piccolo Cancer Fund, the Vincent T. Lombardi Cancer research
    Center, the ALS Neuromuscular research Foundation, and the NFL Players
    Assistance Trust.
    

>>                  <<< Note 132.104 by FRETZ::HEISER "AWANA" >>>
>>                     -< NFL refs are questionable at best >-

>>    While they're at it, the Cards should send game film of the hold the
>>    Cowboy DB put on Ricky Proel in the endzone during the 3rd quarter. 

And I'm sure that they would also want to include the tackle on Jay
Novacek, who was attempting to run a pass pattern, on a Dallas 3rd
and long.

The refs blow plenty of calls, but they equal out in the long run.
Quit your whining.

Jerry

seeing he's known as good hard hitting safety I doubt the league will
take action against Dennis Smith of the Donks for that hit he put on
Barnett last night. Kinda reminded me of the "Sailor's Dive: my daddy
taught me.....

mike

    Chuck "Heat Sinking Missile" Cecil (BTW - another Arizonan) is cut from 
    the same cloth as Dick Butkus.  Everyone remarked how the Redskins' 
    receivers wouldn't run his way after that hit.  Harper and Irwin avoided 
    him like the plague on Sunday night as well.

 It really is amazing, the transformation players make from thug to hardnosed,
once they don a Phoenix uniform no matter what the sport.

    Gee Tommy, it's also amazing how you assume every team in this state
    happens to be a favorite of mine.

 Where did I say the Cardinals were a favorite of yours? I didn't. But 
it never fails that whenever a player with a Phoenix uniform commits a
blatant foul, and it happens far too often, you excuse it as either: a)
hard-nosed play or b) just defending himself. Of course, the league always
sees it differenmntly but what do they know?

re-1
	Get real. A ILB of Butkus class has yet to step on the field. No one
since has brought the fear of that man on opposing players.   


 Cadzilla2

>blatant foul, and it happens far too often, you excuse it as either: a)
>hard-nosed play or b) just defending himself. Of course, the league always

    "happens far too often" <> twice.  you exaggerate far too much.

    I don't agree it was a spear.  I don't believe the replay shows it and
    the refs on the field certainly didn't call it that way.  I think the
    league is more concerned with preventing serious injury ala Dennis Byrd
    or even a Daryl Stingley than calling it like it is.  A noble concern
    but not applicable here.  We'll see how the appeal turns out.

It's not twice. This is the fifth time Cecil has been in trouble over
this, including a_incident in pre-season that cost him $7500.

What has to be legislated outta the game is leading with the helmet. Pure
and simple. The NFl can't do it alone. As Cecil claims, and I believe
him, he was taught to do it this way.

And it's totally irrelevant whether or not the refs make the call. I
assume you're not trying to make a case that if'n the refs don't call it
the league shouldn't do anything about it.

TTom

> I assume  ....

that is your first mistake. (.5 :-)

The Crazy Met

>It's not twice. This is the fifth time Cecil has been in trouble over
    
    Tom, yeah I know about Chuck's past infractions.  My reference was to
    Tommy's claims that I defend every wayward athlete with a Phoenix
    uniform, which couldn't be further from the truth.
    
    I haven't seen Cecil's other penalities so I can't comment on them. 
    He's a tough player in a tough sport, that's all I know.  He ain't no
    Andre Waters by a longshot.

Mike, looks like a case of intermingled conversations.

I haven't seen the other hits either. They made mention of his past
transgression in covering this story.

On another subtopic, is Massey playing nowadays?

TTom

    Massey is still holding out.  They need to do something about this
    since he is regarded as their best cover CB.  He would've helped them
    out on Sunday night against the Dallas receivers.  
    
    Eric Hill will be able to play his first game this week.  He was 2nd on
    the team in tackles last year.

 Jack Lambert was certainly cut from the same mold as Butkus.....

 mike

  Too skinny, not to say that Lambert was not a good or even great LB. His
credentials speak for themselves. But for all out mayheim delivering, body 
slamming, down right kickass football, you cannot beat Mr.Butkus!! 


 Cadzilla2

>
>  Too skinny, not to say that Lambert was not a good or even great LB. His
>credentials speak for themselves. But for all out mayheim delivering, body 
>slamming, down right kickass football, you cannot beat Mr.Butkus!! 
>

I think at that point you're getting so close that you'd need a microscope
to try and say who was better.

I've got three or four names of LBs I can think of who were brutal.

		(No particular order)

			Ray Nitschke
			Dick Butkus
			Tommy Nobis
			Sam Huff

Lambert came later, and skinny legs and all he was possessed....


JMHO,
'Saw


PS  While not an LB, Ben Davidson was one mean SOB too.....

  Lambert was fortunate to have played on one of the greatest defenses ever.
 He was hardly in the class of Dick Butkus who could disrupt the entire off-
 ense all by himself. It wasn't until LT that a linebacker with that kind
 of impact and ferocity came into the league. Ted Hendricks and Chris Hanberger
 were two solid post-Butkus linebackers as was Lanier from KC but LT was the 
 next truly great linebacker.

I'm in the Butkus camp on this one.  Nobody, but nobody worked themselves into 
the state of total frenzy that he did.  Nobody has as little regard for his 
body, or  was more of a general animal.

Nitschke was very tough, and had a great team around him.  Nobis was pretty 
close, but may have played his best in college.  I don't remember Huff, except
in his later years with Washington, but there have been a multitude of LDUCs 
over the years on him being overrated.

LT was close to as intense, and probably was quicker than Butkus, but not quite 
as strong.

=Bob=

Butkus was an animal. A great LB? I don't think so but then again maybe
I didn't watch enough games. Or possibly I'm not slanted by highlight
films of the man. Lambert was a shade less mean but an all around better
LB then either Butkus or LT...Just because he played for a great team
doesn't mean he wasn't great by himself..........

mike

Another great from the Central NFC was Chuck Schmidt. 

The one that everyone is talking about in the current college class is
Derrick Brooks of Florida St. He's smaller than most of these we're
talking about but he runs about a 4.3 which might let him start at
receiver for a lot of teams. With the ink he's getting, he might collect
some Heisman votes.

TTom

    Don't be so hasty about Butkus, mike.  Before his debilitating
    knee injuries , he was a monstah.  Vince Lombardi hisself stated that
    Butkus was the most dominating *player* he's ever seen. Of course
    this was befofre Lambert, but I'd take Butkus in his prime. With
    LT and Lambert right nexted to him, Lanier close behind.
    
    MikeL
    

    	RE: Cecil's fine
    
    	Might as well start putting a dress on all the players.  And while
    we're at it we can make the rookies watch Mr. Rogers' reruns for their
    NFL indoctrination, (or World Cup games).
    
    				/Don

LT, although a marvelous physical specimen, had the luck of playing in a
defensive system where he had no responsibilities except to do whatever he felt
like doing. He could rush the passer, pick a Rb to crush, stunt wherever he
wanted or drop back into a zonelike coverage if he felt like it (he almost
never did)...

Give me a dominating inside linebacker that has to play within the system and
has defined responsibilities and can still dominate every play over the
free-lance stat padder any day...

Metz
 

   Butkus roamed where he wanted also. A player of the magnitude of Taylor
  or Butkus has to be given some latitude. LT, much as Butkus did, defined
  his position for the next generation. Every team wants the "next LT" and
  every outside linebacker for the next twenty years will be compared to 
  Taylor the way running backs were always compared to Jim Brown. The guy
  is more than great he was the best that ever played his position. 

    Bob Brunig (another Sun Devil) who played on the Doomsday Defense of
    the '70s Cowboy teams.

    Still can't reach you Mike... I've got about 80% of your list of series
    1... I'll let you know the damage later...
    

    I'm not sure what the problem is.  Others are getting through okay.

    
    	The fines against Cecil are BS.  The two hits I saw against
    	the 'Skins receivers were textbook (as I was taught).  You
    	lead with the facemask/forehead but not the crown of the
    	helmet.  If you hit with the top of your head, that's when
    	you get hurt.  
    
    	The next time you watch a football game, watch how they tackle.
    	Pay attention to all the tackles not just the ones that DB's
    	make in the open field.  I'll bet you'll see most of the players
    	using the above mentioned method (if they're not tackling from
    	behind or something like that).
    
    Claybone

>    	The fines against Cecil are BS.  The two hits I saw against
>    	the 'Skins receivers were textbook (as I was taught).  You
>    	lead with the facemask/forehead but not the crown of the
>    	helmet.  If you hit with the top of your head, that's when
>    	you get hurt.  

It's been YEARS since I played football, but I was taught the same
way.  Put your facemask on his bellybutton, and your head is going
to slide one way or the other.  Grab, wrap and pull him down.


>    	make in the open field.  I'll bet you'll see most of the players
>    	using the above mentioned method (if they're not tackling from
>   	behind or something like that).
    
I can't understand why I see so many attempts at armless tackles these
days.  A DB will try to knock an RBs legs out by plowing his legs with
his shoulders, but no arms....  

I'll bet "missed tackles" are way up these days.....


'Saw

    It just seems to me that in today's NFL this stuff about "never use the
    helmet in a tackle" is a big hypocritical joke.  Every once in a
    while you'll actually hear someone still espousing the old Knute Rockne
    leather-helmet 180-pound player method of only using the shoulder and
    sliding the head past the ballcarrier, blah blah blah.  Let's get real.
    The NFL should either do something with the helmet itself or just suck
    it up and openly acknowledge that injury, paralysis or even death is 
    just a potential consequence of the game they want to market.  How do 
    you think Chuck Cecil's fines stack up against revenues from those
    "greatest NFL smash hits" videos and the like?
    
    glenn
    

    
    	You are correct 'Saw.  I failed to mention that once you make
    	the hit, WRAP UP!  
    
    Claybone

>    
>    	You are correct 'Saw.  I failed to mention that once you make
>    	the hit, WRAP UP!  
    
I'm conscious of that because in rugby you HAVE to wrap.  You can't
shoulder tackle like I've seen in the NFL.


As to not allowing the helmet to be used as part of the tackle, the
refs have enough things to watch now, and they do a piss-poor job
sometimes with that.  Now then you add in the no helmet stuff and they
can't do it consistently...

Before you know it they'll all be wearing dresses.....  I say let them
bring back clotheslines and headslaps.....8^)


'Saw

    Cecil also claims that's the way he was taught.  That's also the way I
    was taught from Pop Warner up through high school.

  
    
    And the 'skins, to a man, said both were clean hits.  Notice there was
    no fine for the Philly hits?
    
    boC  

    	After watching the Patriots' defensive backs flail away at people
    with the ball the last two weeks, I think Parcells would pay Cecil's
    fines for him to get Chuck on his team.
    
    				/Don

    Tagliabue is gonna have to worm his way out of this one.  Middleton,
    Cecil's victim, says it was a clean hit.  Other members of the 'Skins
    are saying the same.  

�                        -< Chuck has Paul outnumbered >-
    
    Like it's going to matter.

    
    Jack Ham >~ LT  
    
    
    
    Charlie

>    Jack Ham >~ LT  
>    
    
Yeah, right.  

Now that we've heard the opinion of a minority of one.....8^)


'Saw

    
    two.
    
    SI's Zimmerman wrote an article to that effect a few years ago.
    
    me and Z's opinion are worth about the same, of course.
    
    

    
    Yabbut methinks mebbe Charlie's been dippin into some of DiNz's
    hallugens and 'saw's 'shrooms!
    
    I remain,
    wonderin if he could get arrested for dat?
    Kev
    

>    
>    two.
>    
>    SI's Zimmerman wrote an article to that effect a few years ago.
>    
>    me and Z's opinion are worth about the same, of course.

Just kidding wit ya dude.

Actually, I fall back on my old rule about comparing different eras.
It's hard to compare an OLB from a 3-4 with an MLB from a 4-3.

Both were great, intense competitors, even if one did have the 
skinniest legs in the NFL ;^)


'Saw
    
    

    
>>Actually, I fall back on my old rule about comparing different eras.
>>It's hard to compare an OLB from a 3-4 with an MLB from a 4-3.
    
    So who was the MLB????  Ham played outside LB whilst Lambert was the
    MLB fer the STEELERS.
    
    JaKe
    

     What? Nothing about the Cards this week? Wonder why?
    
    

    
    read the PAts note.  It's not like I'm a scum sucking Cowgirl fan who
    only shows up in notes when the team is doing well.  Besides, I didn't
    get a chance to see the game.
    
    boC

     Well, My team isn't doing well and I still showed up. I'm even one of
    those scum sucken COWBOY fans.
    
    Already read the PAts note. Suppose we should talk about the PAts in
    here.....Naaa.  Then theres Tampa.....

    They made Andre Ware look like Joe Montana.

|    
|>>Actually, I fall back on my old rule about comparing different eras.
|>>It's hard to compare an OLB from a 3-4 with an MLB from a 4-3.
|    
|    So who was the MLB????  Ham played outside LB whilst Lambert was the
|    MLB fer the STEELERS.
    

DUH.  Brain Cramp.  I got mixed up.  Badly.

I probably blew all my brains in that last trouser cloud I made.....


'Saw

    >It's not like I'm a scum sucking Cowgirl fan who
    >only shows up in notes when the team is doing well.
    
    >boC
    
    Bruce, who are you referring to ?  
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.

      re-1
    
      He's probably refering to the 'boy fans that were RON's when the
    'boys couldn't win more than 1-3 games a few years ago, then they have
    a great season and all of a sudden the "'boy fans" come out.
    
      Same goes for the American Football conference!
    
      Tim 

    
    
    Ditto!!!!

I see where Massey finally signed.

When's he due to play? Nexted week after the bye against New Egland?

TTom

    That's right Tom.  10/17 vs. the 'Skins in Tempe.  He also received one
    of those letters so must miss 3 games.
    
    This organization blows chunks from the ownership down.  Bidwill gives
    Bugel an ultimatum to win 9 games this year or he's unemployed.  If
    Bugel wasn't a company man, we would've told them to sign Hearst,
    Massey, and Hill during camp, in addition to the free-agent
    acquisitions.  Instead he played the company man and repeated how
    grateful he was for the $$ Bidwill spent.  If it wasn't for that, I'd
    almost feel sorry for him.  Instead they're full of excuses every week.
    
    Now his days are numbered and the team is playing like they also have
    an ultimatum hanging around their necks.  The ploy has backfired on
    Bidwill and he's in a bad situation now that this team has no prayer of
    going 8-4 with their remaining schedule.
    
    What they really need to do is sell the team to Colangelo so that
    Phoenix can run Bidwill out of town.
    
    Mike

    
    The Bidwell's have owned this team for too long to expect them to sell
    it, and I don't see them moving it soon.  Massey has to miss three
    weeks, and got lucky that one was a bye.  The Cards still have a
    outside chance to win 9, don't forget their last 5-6 games are MUCH
    easier than these first four have been (I doubt anyone has had a
    tougher first four games).  
    
    boC 

    Well Brews, they can only lose 4 of their last 12.  After the Pats,
    they play the 'Skins (who won't be too happy and will be looking for
    revenge), '49ers, and the Saints.  
    
    After 8 games, they could very well be 2-6.

    Phoenix cant possible win 9 games... There 1-3 and like -1 said will
    be luck to be 2-6 at the 1/2 way mark.  They have a very tough schedule
    ahead of them after NE they have Wash, San Fran, NO, Philly, Dallas,
    Giants....I know they beat wash once but realisticaly its not a stretch
    to think that they could lose all those games and be sitting at 2-9,
    they might end up giving NE a run for the #1 Pick.... Of course they
    could win 3 or 4 of there last 5 games....Enough to miss the playoffs
    but too many to get a top 5 pick....
    
    								MaB

    
   > They have a very tough schedule    ahead of them after NE they have
   > Wash, San Fran, NO, Philly, Dallas,    Giants...
    
    
    The Cards have a decent chance of winning 4 of these 7, beating NE (a
    given), one of SF or NO, Philly (got jobbed by the refs and lost in
    Philly), and one of Dallas or NY.  After those games, the remaining 6
    are much easier.  Their schedule is amazingly tough for a 5th place
    team, but that's life in the NFC East.  
    
    boC  

    I wouldn't even count NE as a given.  They're down and out, but a
    Parcells' team will be prepared.  It's a must win game for Phoenix.
    
    On top of Bidwill, you have GM Larry Wilson.  Larry was a great
    football player, but he's no GM (hit his head too many times).  Sorry
    to say, but Bugel is history.  I hope I'm wrong because I like the guy
    and feel he deserves a fair shake.  He's not getting a fair shake
    here from Bidwill.

 What's he had 4 or 5 years of the same ole same ole? I realize Bidwill
 ain't no prize but neither is Bugel....

 If he hadn't the good fortune to coach the "HOGS" he still be an assistant..


 mike

    
    Bugel got lucky with the hogs in that Bobby Beatherd was drafting for
    him, so he had some studs.  Phoenix has had some decent OL talent under
    Bugel, but the line play has generally been poor in his regime. 
    Bugel's play calling is worse than Hanley's, and twice as
    unimaginative.    
    
    brews

    I'd rather judge the merits of a coach with some decent talent on his
    team.  Bidwill and Wilson haven't given him squat until this season and
    it still ain't enough.

 I thought Johhny Johnson had some talent...

    I thought the mark of a great coach was he could do something with
    nothing.

    How is Johnny Johnson doing for the Jests?
    
    It's true that great coaches can do something with nothing, but you
    still need talent if you're going to go anywhere.  Bugel is no
    Parcells, but he still needs the talent to win.  Same with Parcells.
    He's obviously a great coach.  He has the Pats playing competitively,
    but they're still winless.  

              <<< Note 132.172 by PATE::MACNEAL "ruck `n' roll" >>>

>    I thought the mark of a great coach was he could do something with
>    nothing.

I agree. Which is why I could never understand the aura around 
the Sparkster. Two champeenships in a bazillion years and both 
times he did win, he was loaded to the gills with talent.

Go figure.

Simple Daryll, the Sparkster made for great copy. Give them nitwits with a
pen a few choice things to write and you're a genuis.

Johhny Johnson had a great preseason and then mysteriously ended up in the
doghouse in Jesters land. His attitude? Maybe. Or maybe management is trying
to cover it's butt by still trying to make a ballplayer out of Blair Thomas?

mike

    JJ had a great rookie year too.  

    
    Cards first round draft pick and starting tackle, Ernest Dye was scoped
    yesterday and will be out for a few weeks.  Joe Wolf was reactivated
    off the DL to replace him.
    
    brews

    HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! 
    HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! 
    HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! 
    HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! 
    HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! 
    HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! 
    HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! 
    HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! 
    HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! 

    
    Refs steal another from the Cards!  SB still in the sights though. 
    Guaranteed that Phoenix will have a SB by 96!!!
    boP 

    I have to know, I watched the whole game, who did the refs steal
    this win away.  They almost gave it to them on the legel pitch
    back (lateral) they they were thinking of calling back.  4000 replays
    showed it was legal :-).  Phonix threw this one away,  out of the 4
    teams that threw multiple interceptions this week only 1 won (Raiders)
    plus they had 1 fumble lost.
    
    Many times you can look at the stats and make a good guess at who won.
    Low and behold NE outplayed PHO in almost every catagory.  Passing Yrds
    Rushing YRD (and therefore total yrds) first downs, 3rd down eff, and
    time of possesion.  It would have realy stunk if NE lost this one. 
    They had 6 scoring oppurtunities (Blew 1 FG), phoenix scored on all
    there scoring oppurtunites and scored TD on all 3 of them.  Good thing
    the NE Defense kept them from getting another chance.  PHonix had 63
    penalt Yrds to NE's 64, so the refs screwed NE worse :-)
    
    								MaB

    Did Hearst get hurt?  Why was Bailey in down the stretch?
    

    The trainer said Hearst got hurt and was pulled in favor of Bailey.
    Hearst is way too tentative still.  He's to start running like he means
    it.  Those holes close a lot faster than they do in college.
    
    Local critics that were at the game commented on how different the
    teams were in terms of game preparation.  A well-coached team is
    perceived in a completely different light.  Critics could just sense a
    difference between the Pats and Cards.
    
    Phoenix would probably be 4-1 at the worst with Parcells in charge.  I
    still say Bidwill should sell the team to Colangelo.  Then we can at
    least change the name to something that identifies with Phoenicians.
    We have to drive north for 50 miles before we see Cardinals.
    
    Mike

�Then we can at
�    least change the name to something that identifies with Phoenicians.
�    We have to drive north for 50 miles before we see Cardinals.
    
    I noticed that the players do wear the AZ state flag on their sleeves.

    
    Lemme straighten both Mikes out, before I get to the Cards:
    
    1.)  I have cardinals in my backyard every day.  They live here!!  It's
    these namby-pamby newcomers like yourself who don't realize that
    Phoenix is one of only two places in the entire US that has two
    species of Cardinals.
    
    2.)  The Cardinals will NOT be sold to Colangelo, Michelangelo, or
    Angelo Dundee.  Get any foolish hope of that out of your head.  The
    Cardinals are the oldest franchise in football and have been owned by
    the same family for over 50 years.  It ain't gonna happen.  Besides,
    why wuld the Cardinals want Colangelo?  They've got enough problems
    already without adding drug problems to this team.
    
    3.)  Every replay I saw made it look like an obvious forward lateral. 
    I thought it was funny that the ref threw a flag, and then just picked
    it up.  That is not the kind of call that should have to be discussed
    among officials.  Either you see it or you don't.
    
    It's pretty obvious that Bugel will be gone.  His inability to win
    games like Sundays that he should win (another example is the two
    losses to TB last year) is a good example of why he should be gone. 
    With all the Bearsd fans in Phoenix, there is a big push for Ditka
    (yuck!!), but a Joe Gibbs would sure be nice.
    
    boC 
    
    

    Ahh Bruce, every reply I saw showe dit to be quite legal. I was not a
    forward lateral...
    
    REK

    	Quit your soccer-like whining Brews.  The problem with Phoenix is
    that their defensive line too fat.  Cripes they look like a baseball
    team!                     
    
    				/Don

    
    /ere, if'n I can't bitch about the refs, what can I bitch about?  Ya
    want me to fess up and say my team was outplayed or sumfin?  Cheeeeese,
    the whole system would crash or something like that.  I don't think
    we've ever seen that here in ::sprots, and don't think we ever will.
    
    boC
    
    PS  >Quit your soccer-like whining Brews
        boC is doing the soccer-like whining.  brews is a Giants fan.   

>    1.)  I have cardinals in my backyard every day.  They live here!!  It's
>    these namby-pamby newcomers like yourself who don't realize that
>    Phoenix is one of only two places in the entire US that has two
>    species of Cardinals.
    
    I ain't no newcomer.  I've been here at least as long as you and have
    never seen a Gray or Red Cardinal in this city.  The lowest elevation
    I've seen them is at Black Canyon City.
    
>    2.)  The Cardinals will NOT be sold to Colangelo, Michelangelo, or
>    why wuld the Cardinals want Colangelo?  They've got enough problems
>    already without adding drug problems to this team.
    
    I realize that the Bidwill's have owned the Cards since 1907, but that
    doesn't excuse them for pathetic management and a losing attitude. 
    Your association on Suns' management and drug addiction is
    unverifiable.  A winning atmosphere, attitude, and team is built from the 
    top down.  There's only one franchise in town that has it.
    
    Brews, you better behave or I'll enter the "15 Reasons why the Cards
    are glad the Suns are back."
    
>    With all the Bearsd fans in Phoenix, there is a big push for Ditka
>    (yuck!!), but a Joe Gibbs would sure be nice.
    
    Gibbs would be great, but will he come out of retirement?  He'd
    probably make Bugel his line coach too.
    
    Mike

    	Quit your soccer-like whining BoC.  The problem with Phoenix is
    that their defensive line too fat.  Cripes they look like a baseball
    team!                     
    
    				/Don

1907?? was there an NFL, or anything like it,in 1907???

The Crazy Met

    
    Oh great, NAU is 6-0, and suddenly Heiser is a fan.  You are hearby
    invited to my house to see the cardinals.  We have two pair in the
    backyard everyday.  Your kids can play on the playset I built for my
    kid, and will actually come face to face with cardinal poop.  Just
    don't let your boy wear that sissy soccer uniform with the picture of
    My Little Pony on it.  
    
    Dumas, Edawards, Davis... the Suns have had an all-star team of cokers.
    They are legendary. The Cards, with four time the numbers of players,
    have been relatively trouble-free (win-free too)while they've been here.
    
    boC

    
    Thanks /er.  The Cards are the oldest NFL franchise.  They have
    actually played more games than the Bears, but records werewn't kept
    until the '20's or so.
    
    brews

�    3.)  Every replay I saw made it look like an obvious forward lateral. 
    
    The announcers didn't seem to think so.

>    Oh great, NAU is 6-0, and suddenly Heiser is a fan.  You are hearby
    
    how did ya manage to arrive at that?

    
    > Quit your soccer-like whining BoC.  The problem with Phoenix is
    > that their defensive line too fat.  Cripes they look like a baseball
    > team!                     
    
    Yes, imagine my horror when I turned that game on and saw 3 of the
    4 Cardinals' down linemen sporting Alexeyev-like physiques that made 
    Bill Parcells look like Sly Stallone by comparison.  The two biggest 
    guys were listed without the slightest bit of exaggeration at 340 and 
    *360* pounds!  Thank god the conditioning required there doesn't permit
    a postgame beer or two... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

Gray Cardinals?  I have several books on birds and have never seen a 
picture of these.    I have several pairs of Cardinals that hang out around
my house (red ones of course).


Lateral looked good to me, and I'm pretty much unbiased where these two
teams are concerned.


Parcells needs slim-fast again....8^)


'Saw

    OK brews, BoC, Bruce, Sybil whatever 8^)
    
    I'll bite. Where is the second place in the US that boasts two
    species of Cardinals (I've seen plenty_a_Redboids in my backyard)?
    
    MikeL
    
    

    
    
    Yabbut Tommy,
    
    
    
    
    On yer mark.....
    
    
    
    
    
    	Get Set.......
    
    
    
    
    
    
    	OK gentlemen, false start - out of the blocks and remember
    nexted time I'm gonna hold ya!
    
    ;^)
    
    I remain,
    ::Sports official starter (who doesn't have a pistol though)
    :^(
    Kev
    

    I thought female cardinals were grayish... the males were red..
    

    I've always been a little curious as to the attitude of fans of a team
    which has moved towards the teams history eg Atlanta fans vs Milwaukee
    Braves vs Boston Braves.
    
    Now I assume phoenix fans are aware that the cards were once the
    chicago cardinals of ollie matson fame.  I also believe that the
    chicago cardinal team originated in some other locale.
    
    But 1907?  Fill me in.  Was sockelexus(sic) the qb.

�I have several pairs of Cardinals that hang out around
�my house (red ones of course).
    
    Don't count on having any little baby cardinals around then (only the
    males are red).

>    
>    Don't count on having any little baby cardinals around then (only the
>    males are red).

No, I meant pairs.....

I might be mistaken but I believe cardinals mate for life.

It's also kind of rare (or so the bird enthusiasts in this area tell me)
to have two pairs in such close proximity.  They figure I must be
near where two "territories" comes together, because Cardinals are territorial.



As to the Phoenix d-line, I don't think you'd ever see them chasing down
someone from behind like Reggie White.   8^)


'Saw

    Maybe they should give back the Cards to St. Louis and give us a real
    expansion team.

 >> No, I meant pairs.....

    I don't get the distinction.
    
 >> As to the Phoenix d-line, I don't think you'd ever see them chasing down
 >> someone from behind like Reggie White.   8^)

    Eric Swann is one of them +300 pounders and he looks pretty damned
    svelte and quick. It's a little easier to carry 300 pounds when you're 
    6'5" like Swann rather than 5'10" like Kruk.
    

    Brews, what does 3 misguided substance abusers have to do with the rest
    of the sports club administration?  Kudos to them for even giving those
    3 a fair chance.
    
    It's sort of ironic that one of them was a Tar Heel ;-)

    
    Texas also has two species of cardinals (please note the lower case,
    the esteemed team from Phoenix is the Cardinals).  I believe both of
    the species here are red.
    
    boC 

    that and 5� still gives you a poor excuse for an expansion football
    team.

    
    > Eric Swann is one of them +300 pounders and he looks pretty damned
    > svelte and quick. It's a little easier to carry 300 pounds when you're 
    > 6'5" like Swann rather than 5'10" like Kruk.
    
    Swann looks like he's a player.  He was the one guy I was excluding when 
    I made my "3 of 4" comment (he's listed at 295 these days).  A course, 
    he is living proof that you can overrate the skill level involved at 
    some of the positions in football, when like Swann you can be drafted 
    in the top five picks in the country with zero college experience and a 
    little bit of weekend action with the semi-pro Bay State Titans and step 
    right into the NFL and play well.  It is above all else a physical game, 
    as Bill Parcells so often reminds us...
    
    glenn
    
    

�    Eric Swann is one of them +300 pounders and he looks pretty damned
�    svelte and quick. It's a little easier to carry 300 pounds when you're 
�    6'5" like Swann rather than 5'10" like Kruk.
    
    Yabbut, Tommy did you see that 360 pounder who came in for about 1 down
    in 4?  The one with skin tight jersey who jiggled like Jello(TM) when
    he walked back off the field to rest for his next designated play?

    	That 360 pounder would probably make a good rightfielder or
    thirdbaseman and he wouldn't have to come out after only one play.
    
    				/Don

 >> Yabbut, Tommy did you see that 360 pounder who came in for about 1 down
 >> in 4?  The one with skin tight jersey who jiggled like Jello(TM) when
 >> he walked back off the field to rest for his next designated play?
    
    Yeah, I saw him. He reminded me of Jerry Glanville's quote about one
    of his players who has a weight problem, "He could have a long career
    in the NFL if he could just learn two words - 'I'm full'." Still, these
    guys aren't all-stars or even close to it like Kruk. Baseball is still
    the only game where you don't have to be in your best physical condition
    to do well at it but I think I've beaten that to death. Can I get a
    "Amen"?

Amen brother...

If guys with the physical condition of Kruk, Pendleton, puckett and Mitchell
can be all-stars then it can find a place for the William Perry's of the
world...

Metz

    Ferget baseball and football,
    
    When's the last time you saw an outta condition hokey player?
    
    MikeL
    

    Re.-1
    
    Never
    

    Could it be that Pettibone is the only coach worse than Bugel?  All
    those years of coaching together at Washington must have rubbed off.

    
    Cards DOMINATE the Redskins, a team only one year removed from being
    defending SB Champs.  THis meant that the CArds have now swept the
    'skins in the season series, the first time that's happened since
    forever.  Eric Swann was simply HUGE.  12 tackles, seven were solo. 
    Was also putting on a big pass rush.
    
    The bad news is that HEarst injured his knee.  Initial indications are
    that he'll be out 2-3 weeks, but they won't know until the scope it
    this AM.
    
    boC

    	Hey BoC, the Patsies toughened up the Cards lasted week and got
    them ready for the 'Skins.  How did those fat guys (who could be
    baseball players) in the defensive line do?
    
    				/Don

    Are the Redskins really that bad?!
    
    First sweep of the 'Skins since 1974.  Swann was huge with 12 tackles,
    a safety, and 2 fumble recoveries.

    
    Kieth Rucker, the REAL big guy (nearing 1bmen proportions), had an
    awesome hit on Ervins, and was a key figure in carrying Joe Bugel off
    the field at the end of the game.  He shoulda kept on going.
    
    boC 

    Yesterday brings only one thing to mind:
    
    Don't hire a Redskin assistant coach.  They're all dumb, some more than
    their peers.

    Hearst is out 2-3 weeks?
    

    yea, he banged up a knee, which he has had problems with in the past. 
    They should know later today how bad it is.  Fantasy players should
    look for Moore and Bailey (mostly Moore) to get the carries. 
    
    They have a decent chance next week, but Hearst may be missed.
    brews

    
    fair weather fain
    
    boC

    you have to be a fan of there's to begin with to be accused of such
    drivel.

    there/their  police!!
    
    twice in a week or so Mike!!
    
    8^)

    how about that school of yours!!!
    
    8^)

    yep, to the ducks at home in the rain.  lost by about 10 or so.  now
    the worst team in the PAC10.
    
    

    BRING BACK KUSH! ;-)
    
    It looks like you seeded your lawn this weekend.  Nice of you to feed
    the birds.

   >  It looks like you seeded your lawn this weekend.  Nice of you to feed   
   > the birds.
    
    how'd you figure that out?  The neighbor's moved out, so I know you're
    not visiting her anymore.  8^)  I put down a bunch of mulch over the
    seed, so maybe the qual will stay away.  if not, I'll just invite
    Claywad and his shotgun.  
    
    brews

    
    	What's innit fer me?
    
    Claybone

    >how'd you figure that out?  The neighbor's moved out,
    
    A moment of silence please...
    
    
    
    
    Thanks... any forwarding address?

    >how'd you figure that out?  The neighbor's moved out,
    
    I saw the flock of birds heading your way.  BTW - if you're mainly
    enough, spread some manure over the seed too.  Birds don't like it too
    much.

    Hearst's knee injury is a bit worse than first thought, and he will be
    out 4-6 weeks.  The ONLY good news about this is that the knee has
    always been a bit "loose", and maybe they can clean it up.
    
    The Pats guy who hit TE WAre had his fine reduced from $3500 to $1000. 
    Of course Chuck "I'm too tough for the NFL" Cecil's fine was never
    reduced from $30,000 for essentially the same hit.  Ware may have to
    sit out this weeks game, whereas Middleton didn't miss any game time.
    
    For those of you who didn't see the hit, you'll be able to buy copies
    of them on the NFL's greatest hits video.
    
    boC   

    	boC, the league ruled that Corwin Brown did not intentionally use
    the crown of his helmet when he made the hit.  How one can determine
    intent from a videotape is hard to figure.
    
    				/Don

    /er
    
    Ya have to have the ability to think and reason to be able to form
    "intent" in your haid, and, since most Pats players have the iq of a
    pet rock, and I may be a little generous here, there's no brain in
    their haid fer them to be able to form "intent".
    
    Schnorttt Schittt Schleppps
    
    JaKe
    

 Part of me is offended by Jake raggin' on my Pats and another part of
me is glad he isn't still crying over Barry Bonds leaving.

    Just for you, Tommy.
    
    Barry "Wah-Wah I've got a 12 year old menatality in a grown up body"
    Bonds is dumber than a pet rock.  So the PATS player involved is much
    smarter than BB.
    
    (8^0
    
    JaKe
    

    	RE: 132.242 and 132.243
    
    	And the new folks last night in Boston said, "If it was
    	essentially a clean hit, then why the $1000 fine?"
    
    	Good question.
    
    	Scott

> And the new folks last night in Boston said

so tell us what did the old people have to say??:-)

The Crazy Met

    Phoenix needs to band together and run Bidwill out of town.  At least
    if we get a new expansion team, they'll have an excuse for playing like
    one.

    
    Where was the running game?  Thisd game showed how bad the Redskins
    really are!
    
    boC

    Brews, I'm anxiously awaiting to see how an expert puts an entry into
    topic 50.

Well you should ask boC that question.

The Crazy Met

      So has Bidwell started taps on Bugle yet?

They was saying yesterday that Bidwell told Bugel that he had to have a
wining season to keep his job. If'n only the Cards could play the
Redskins 6 more times.

And that New England loss sure helps his cause, don't it.

TTom

   > Brews, I'm anxiously awaiting to see how an expert puts an entry into   
   > topic 50.
    
    In the extremely unlikely case that the Cards don't meet the
    expectations I laid out for them in my official crow note prediction,
    I will be there!
    
    The Card's radio color man (an unpopular job in Phoenix 8^)) was fired 
    by the Card's flagship station on Friday.  Apparently the Cards
    complained to KTAR (the radio station) that Tod Walsh was not _always_
    saying nice things abouth the Cards.  KTAR removed him from that job to
    a pre/post game analyst postition.  Walsh then called Bidwell's
    son-in-law, who he thought was a friend, and jokingly asked for GM
    Larry Wilson's home address so he could fire-bomb his house.  He left
    the message on Bidwell's answering machine.  When Walsh refused to
    issue an apology, he was fire.
    
    boC 

    
    
           .....he was fire.     ??????
    
    
    Brews you better get on that Boc guy!
    
    Chappy

    ...and Todd was the only decent replacement they had for Jude.  No
    matter, I've been listening to Arnie anyway.

    
    Cards blow a 10 point lead and lose to the (S)aints.  Beurlein was
    having a decent game until he went down, and the offense never showed
    up after that.  Eric Swann left the game in the 3rd qtr. 
    
    boC

Brews, boC, or whatever you're calling yourself:

have the Cards been oficially eliminated from playoff contention yet??

The Crazy Met

    nope
    
    boC
    

    they might actually beat Philly here next week.  Then they go to Dallas
    to lose.  The bye week following that is probably when we say:
    
    Adios Joe!

    hey a .500 season is still a winning season, on the next bye week
    they will be either 3-7 or 2-8 (more then likly the 2-8) so he'll
    still have a shot at a winning season :-).  The thing that scares
    me is that they may only win 3 or 4 games for the season, if the
    pats beat cinncy and the indy game and end up with 3 wins, Phoenix
    gets the tie breaker.  Of course if Faulk of the RB from Michigan
    are projected to go 1 and 2, will phoenix trade down seeing they
    have hurst ????
    
    Phoenix is in trouble...(or should I say bugel is).
    
    								MaB

    Ahh.. 2-6, right on the money... :-)
    (To those Phoenix fans, sorry I was right)for once :-)
    ================================================================================
    Note 132.164             Official Phoenix Cardinals Note             
    164 of 263
    MR1PST::CBULLS::MBROOKS                              10 lines 
    29-SEP-1993 14:28
                         -< I Think Bugle is a goner for sure >-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Phoenix cant possible win 9 games... There 1-3 and like -1 said
    will
        be luck to be 2-6 at the 1/2 way mark.  They have a very tough
    schedule
        ahead of them after NE they have Wash, San Fran, NO, Philly,
    Dallas,
        Giants....I know they beat wash once but realisticaly its not a
    stretch
        to think that they could lose all those games and be sitting at
    2-9,
        they might end up giving NE a run for the #1 Pick.... Of course
    they
        could win 3 or 4 of there last 5 games....Enough to miss the
    playoffs
        but too many to get a top 5 pick....
    
                                                                    MaB
    

   > hey a .500 season is still a winning season,
    
    It's logic like this that places you in such high regard in this
    notesfile.  
    
    You were right on the nose about the Giants in -1, weren't you?
    
    boC

    Bidwill wants 9-7, not .500.  I know the Cards won 11 in '84 when they
    last went to the playoffs.  Have they ever won 9 or more prior to that? 
    Anyone know how many times they've done it?  Is Bidwill asking the
    impossible?

    
    Hearst is out for the season, had his knee operated on yesterday...
    
    Interesting rumor going around.  If the Cards lose the next two to
    Philly and Dallas, they'll be 2-8, and no hope for a winning season
    (MaB's log-ick not withstanding).  Bidwell may be considering firing
    Bugel right then, as the Cards have a bye week after they play the
    'boys.  The next six games are relatively easier- Giants twice, Lams,
    Seahawks, Lions, forget the 6th.  Might be a good chance to bring in a
    new coach and let him have some success before the season is over.  The
    only problem is that it seems like Danny White would be the leading
    candidate for the job in this scenario.  If that happens, boC will
    cease to exist.
    
    boC   

    Bidwill has to do something to get fannies in the seats.  A local boy
    like White might do it.  I think Ditka would put more in the seats (as
    well as 1 huge one on the Cards' sideline).
    
    I think they should let Joe finish the year, then look for a GM *AND* a
    coach during the offseason.  There will be more to choose from at
    season's end.

      Danny White?  I take it your talking about the mediocre ex-cowgirl
    QB?  I didn't know he was even coaching at any capacity...
    
      Tim

    Tim, he coaches the Arena League team here (Arizona Rattlers).  At
    least they made the playoffs.  That's more than what the Cards can say.

    So did the Albany Firebirds and I don't hear Rick Buffington being
    named as a candidate anywhere...
    

    Well the Cards prevented themselves and Bugel from falling over the
    edge on Sunday by beating the Iggles 16-3.  First time they've ever
    beaten them here since moving to Tempe.
    
    I originally expected them to get drilled at Dallas this week, and
    losing Swann doesn't help, but with Kosar and Emmitt being
    questionable, who knows...
    
    The Cards have petitioned the league office (and sent game film) with 
    the Iggles dirty tactics.  Because of their chop-blocking, Swann is out 
    3-4 weeks.  First they fine Cecil on a clean hit, then continue to let
    chop-blocking go unnoticed.

      re-1
    
      Got keep them doctors rich...

    BoC must be washing his hands of this team now that Swann is gone for
    the season.  The cartilage damage was worse than anticipated.

    The Cards may actually have a shot this weekend.  Not only are the
    'Girls w/o Acheman, but they're due for a bad game.  Remember, it will
    be a year ago this Sunday, when the 'Girls couldn't hang onto the ball
    and the Lambs beat them in Irving.
    
    No ruling yet on the Swann incident from HQ.

    Aikman's not out yet.  He's got a chip on his shoulder since Bernice
    in 8 games will almost match his salary in 16...

    Rumors around NFL circles are that Acheman's injury(s) are worse than
    advertised.

>>     <<< Note 132.276 by GWEN::ASHE "Les Nessman Live, from the mall..." >>>

>>    Aikman's not out yet.  He's got a chip on his shoulder since Bernice
>>    in 8 games will almost match his salary in 16...


As I recall, Aikman's rookie contract was for app. $11 million over
5 years.  The Cowboys are paying Bernie half a mill (same as they
were paying Millen).  You must be including the money that the Browns
are still having to cough up, in which case Bernie is making way
more than Troy.

Also as I recall, when Aikman signed his rookie contract everyone thought
it was a heck of a deal for him.  Since then, of course, salaries have
gone ballistic and Troy's money seems like small potatoes.  I've never
heard him complain, though.  I even heard him say one time that he felt
like he was over-paid for the first couple of years in the league.

If you have some factual information I would appreciate seeing it
here.  All that I have heard about this is:

 - Aikman's agent has said that he wants Troy to be the highest paid
	QB in the NFL.

 - Jones has stated the Troy probably WILL probably be the highest paid 
	QB in the NFL.

 - Aikman doesn't want to deal with it at this time because of the
	distraction it might cause (I'm shakey on this one.  Could
	be wrong).

What have I missed?

Jerry

    I just read he was miffed because Kosar signed a 1 year, $2.25 million
    contract with Dallas, so prorated to the rest of the season, he makes
    $1 million for the season.  Aikman's getting $1.17 million for the
    season.  This is from today's USA Today...
    

The total numbers for Kosar can only help Aikman.

This year he gets 1 mil, guaranteed, from Dallas. Cleveland owes him
another mil in signing money and over 4 mil in salary. He also gets
almost another mil nexted year that was guaranteed by Cleveland.

That about $7 million over the next year or so plus whatever else he can
anybody to pay him. Even doubling Aikman's salary doesn't put him
anywhere near Kosar.

Prediction: Jones will fume and foment, posture publicly, create
disharmony on the team, and then miraculously he'll sign Aikman. Emmitt
Smith's take on this is that when they want to pay somebody, the Cowboys
never have any problems coming up with the money. He used Kosar as
a_example.

TTom

>>     <<< Note 132.279 by GWEN::ASHE "Les Nessman Live, from the mall..." >>>

>>    I just read he was miffed because Kosar signed a 1 year, $2.25 million
>>    contract with Dallas, so prorated to the rest of the season, he makes

I had heard that Kosar signed for $.5 mil.  Guess I was wrong.  Thanks
for the info.    

Jerry

    re-1 Aikman
    
      Aikman saying he was overpayed for the 1st 2 years?  I'v NEVER heard
    a pro-athlete say they were overpaid.  I've heard the opposite.
    
      I think your making Aikman to be a rebel he's not...
    
      Tim

    I've heard Aikman in an interview say that he probably was overpaid his
    first season in particular.  He also made it clear that he hung in
    there and definetly paid his dues the firs couple of seasons.
    
    All of the above is of course to the best of my recollection!
    
    Bob

    close but no cigar once again.  The Cards have lost 6 of their last 7
    to Dallas by a TD or less.  6 of their 7 losses this year have been by
    a TD or less as well.  What would you folks say is wrong with a team
    that loses so many close games?  Coaching?  

    I like Bugels coaching yesterday.  They played well against Dallas, and
    were one play away from beating the 'boys.
    
    You have a great running back in that ex-Bear, unfortunately he likes 
    to fumble and boots allot of kick returns.
    
    It would have helped to have had Beurlin, too.
    
    Chip_BEARS_Bach

    Bugel now has to go 6-0 over the rest of the season to meet the
    ultimatum.  Bidwill's recent quotes already smack of the coming
    separation from Bugel and GM Larry Wilson.

    
    I was out last week.  Say what you want about all the old noters gone,
    but there's a feces load of noting going on in here, regardless.
    
    The Cards have now have _EVERY_ free agent and draft pick they signed
    this year out.  It's amazing how these injuries are piling up.  Losing
    Swann kills them as he is the only guy putting on any kind of pass rush
    (Ken HArvey hasn't looked like the KEn Harvey of old).
    
    Well, guaranteed not to lose this week, and we ain't playing the
    Eagles, so we don't have to worry about cheapshots, so things should
    get better heading into the easier [part of the schedule.
    
    boC

    
    The Cards were jobbed by the officials and the "home field advantage" on 
    this one.  Players on the filed said the wind suddenly changed
    directons a Deluiso lined up for the FG.  Happened about when the
    outside doors to Giants Stadium were opened.
    
    Cards are now 3-8, but have scored more points than they have allowed.
    AMazing.  All but one of their losses is by >6 points and Bugel is
    something like 6-21 in games decided by a TD or less as a Cardinal
    coach.  A good coach wins more of those games than that.  Good
    indication was right after the Giants scored the winning FG.  Instead
    of the offense being ready to go out on the field, Walter Reeves, a TE,
    (why are you using a TE when you have 50 yards to go for a FG and 30
    seconds to do it in, anyway?)  finally got onto the field with about 4
    seconds left on the play clock.  You'd think the offense would've been
    huddled together on the sideline as the Giants are marching up the
    field, and prepared with 4-5 plays.
    
    boC 

>    
>    The Cards were jobbed by the officials and the "home field advantage" on 
>    this one.  Players on the filed said the wind suddenly changed
>    directons a Deluiso lined up for the FG.  Happened about when the
>    outside doors to Giants Stadium were opened.
>    

Uh, Brews, you've been a Giants fan long enough to know that those doors
are always open.  (If you're talking about the one on the far end of the
tunnel).  New Jersey fire laws...


'Saw

�Uh, Brews, you've been a Giants fan long enough to know that those doors
    
    uh, 'Saw, you've been around here long enough to know that wasn't
    brews, that was boC.

    That's right, Mac.  boC is just another whiney Cardinals fan.
    
    brews

    Am not!
    
    boC

    Are too!
    
    brews

    Anthony Edwards said in this morning's paper that he's a BAC and
    doesn't swear.  Everyone is still wondering why he was ejected.

      So has taps started on a Bugel (punn)?
    
      Tim

>    Anthony Edwards said in this morning's paper that he's a BAC and
>    doesn't swear.  Everyone is still wondering why he was ejected.


I only saw the replay once, but this is what it looked like to me:

	Edwards was being held.  As the play ended, the linesman ran
	upfield and Edwards headed over to complain.  Edwards got in
	front of him.
	
	As another Cards player went by to take the field, he brushed
	the ref.  I believe that the ref thought that Edwards did
	it and flagged him.

Poor call.


'Saw

    	Brews, tell boC that there's no shame in succumbing to the genius
    of Dan Reeves.  Many others have this year.  Most No Fun League coaches
    would've been scared to use a non-experienced long-range kicker in such
    a game-deciding situation, but not the GENIUS!
    
    				/Don

    
    Anyone else notice that TCM has been staying outa here the last few
    weeks?
    
    boC

    
    >>Anyone else notice that TCM has been staying outa here the last few
    >>weeks?
    
    The fack he's in Singapore might have something to do with it, eh??
    
    JaKe
    

    
    He hasn't been in Singapore the whole time, and he still is managing to
    get in, on occasion.  But I'm sure that Mutts fan appreciates you
    excuse.
    
    boC

    So what do ya think of Bidwill succumbing to media pressure and
    retaining Bugel for the remainder of this season?

    
    Made sense.  What good would it do to dump him now?
    The jury is still out on Bugel.
    
    boC 

    boC,
    
    either you or your partner in crime
    will still be helping yourself to crow
    fairly soon.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    re -1
    
    NEVER!!
    boC

    Hey there not under .500 yet (for the season).  Think about it they 
    play the barryless Lions, the SeaChickens, NYG and the Falcons.  Id
    say the first 2 are very winnable games, so if they can get lucky
    (And I truly feel it would take luck on phoenix's part) they could
    beat the Giants and be playing Atlanta for a .500 record.  IF they do
    tear off 5 wins in a row to end the season, come within a game of the
    playoffs with the injuries they have include Hearst they almost have
    to keep Bugel !!!!
    
    By the way where does Phoenix fall in the salary cap issue, will they
    have money to sign some free agents.  I hope Sea, NE, Pho and TB all
    scoop some good talant on the Free Agent market...
    
    								Mab

>    say the first 2 are very winnable games, so if they can get lucky
>    (And I truly feel it would take luck on phoenix's part) they could
>    beat the Giants and be playing Atlanta for a .500 record.  IF they do
    
    Luck is kicking a 55-yard FG into the wind with 30 seconds left to beat
    a 3-7 team.  I have to think the Cards will be highly motivated when
    the Giants come here.
    
    If I was Bugel, I'd beg them to can me after this season.  They have 35
    contracts to deal with after this season.  With Bidwill's track record,
    that's a major nightmare.

      The Jury is out on Bugel?  It seems I've heard that for 2-3 years (-)

    Hey BoC, do you think the shotgun formation could've saved the Cards 
    yesterday?
    
    Bugel must be the only coach in the NFL who says the shotgun only causes
    headaches.

    
    A better QB might have saved the Cards.  Notice how all the
    Joe-must-stay folks shaddup?
    
    boC

    I don't get the local media.  Sure he's a nice guy, but he's still
    16-43 since he's been here.

    GM Larry Wilson has just stepped down.  He said, "I've just played too
    many games without a helmet to continue in this position."

    Well the Cards are eliminated from the playoffs. It is now time for
    Brews, and I mean Brews not boC, to mosey on down to topic #50 and eat
    crow until he gets sick. Check out notes .0, .5, .8 all are signed by
    
    Brews
    
    fwiw I and 2 other ::sprotsters have saved notes .0-.13 since we
    figured as a sales sleaziod Brews would delete those replies.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    .0 says they will "when the Superbowl."  Don't know what that means. 
    .5 Says they will go undefeated, but it was obvious from the context
       it meant undefeated against the Redskins.
    .8 says "if I knew how to edit my notes"  and I still don't know how to
       do that.
    
    brews (not boC, who might have some crow eating to do) 

    
    Cards win one they would normally lose.  Beurlein looked good after
    looking horrible early.  Might be the one to put the Cards over the
    top.  Bugel says nexted week's game versus the Jints is the Cards'
    superbowl.   
    
    boC
     

    Metz-
    
    What are they saying up there after yesterday's game?  Cards do very
    well against teams from Washington (State or DC).
    
    boC

your fudging. .5 makes no reference to the Redskins anywhere and even
that discussion thread doesn't refer to the Redskins.

.8 If I knew how to edit my notes, that would say win the Super Bowl.

Looks like an admission that "when" was supposed to be "win"

Your behaving more and more like a sleazy salesdroid.

The Crazy Met

    
    The Redskin reference was an inference.  Ask anyone else, it was pretty
    obvious.  And I don't know how to edit my notes, so it doesn't say win.
    
    boC

    
    	Is Brews dinz'ing(tm) us?
    
    Claybone

waddya expect of a sales sleazoid??

The Crazy Met

  >  Brews is a sleazy wimpy salesdroid
    
    I take personal offense to this degradation of my and and fine
    profession, and will have to demand that the mods delete this note.  
    And I'd rather be that than a Unix-geek MEts fan.
    
    brews 

Brews is a sleazy wimpy salesdroid

The Crazy Met

    Boc,
    
    they are sayign the defense was too banged up to hold off the cards.
    mucho inexperience playing in the secondary this week. I'm saying it
    sounds like the old prevent defense once again prevented a win. The
    game was blacked out here because it wasn;t sold out.
    
    They are mostly gushing about Chris Warren and the "Tough" rick mirer
    who played after getting an injection to numb his back spasms...It
    sounds like he missed quite a few open recievers but they wouldn't pull
    him because ...I dunno why not, He's not Joe Montana out there and Stan
    Gelbaugh could be adequate getting few first downs with a 20-? lead...
    
    Metz
    

    
    Was at the Card-Giants game on 12/26.  Santa brought me some great
    seats, 20 rows up on the 35.  Good game, even though the wrong guys
    won.  
    
    brews
    

Newsgroups: clari.sports.football,clari.local.arizona
Subject: Cardinals fire personnel director, scout

	PHOENIX (UPI) -- The Phoenix Cardinals Monday fired Director of Pro
Personnel Erik Widmark and scout Carl Hairston.
	Widmark was with the Cardinals for six seasons.
	Hairston, who spent 15 seasons and gathered 94 sacks in his NFL
career, was a scout for three seasons with the Cardinals.
	The Cardinals finished the season with three straight victories,
including a 27-10 triumph over the Atlanta Falcons last Sunday.

    
    I don't think anything'll happen until Bidwell gets a GM.  Don't be
    surprised to see Pettibone here, he and Buges are friends.
    
    boC

    Isn't Pettibone a defensive coordinator at heart?  Given the 'Skins
    defenses of the past, I'd rather see him doing that job than Fritz
    "Bend but don't break" Shurmur.

    NFC East twice
    Chicago
    Minnesota
    Pittsburgh
    Cincinnati
    at LA Rams
    at Atlanta
    at Houston
    at Cleveland
    
    ...and they get the 10th pick in the draft.

    Bidwill has contacted 'Canes coach Dennis Erickson.

    The word has been leaked and it appears that Bugel is gone.

Yeah, they confirmed it on the FAN last night.  Bugel is history.....

    
    
    Yabbut not only Bugel, but the entire coaching staff too!
    
    I remain,
    filling in a few missing thangs
    Kev
    

    
    
    	Yabbut Mikel, don't you should give Gil Santo's the credit
    for that one?  I heard the same line thisted am on the AM radion!
    
    I remain,
    j'accuse tu of plagarism!
    Kev
    

>    
>    	Yabbut Mikel, don't you should give Gil Santo's the credit
>    for that one?  I heard the same line thisted am on the AM radion!
>    
>    I remain,
>    j'accuse tu of plagarism!
>    Kev

Not necessarily.  The fact that Letterman used a Imus joke the other night
has been explained as "great comedic minds thinking alike".

It is no doubt in my mind that Mike Leary has a great comedic mind
(to whit, his conversation with his neighbor that time) and he came up with
that on his own....


'Saw
    

    Jeez 'Saw, ah cain't afford another 50 smackers to keep ya
    buildin' me up..8^)
    
    No, I didn't steal this from Gil Santos.. don't listen to BZ.
    However I am not above stealin' material. Berle and Youngman made
    a livin' outta it 8^)
    
    MikeL
    

    
    
    re: "...comedic mind..."
    
    	Yabbut there's another proof point that our ND jihad guy's mind (?)
    is truely a joke!  ;^)
    
    re:  "...not above stealin'..."
    
    	Of course we knew that, just look at yer alma mater and some of
    their other graj_u_ates!
    
    
    I remain,
    also suggesting you keep the day job!
    Kev
    

    Which other ND grajiates is stealin'??
    That's libelous stuff there Farley, be careful
    or I'll have the ND anti-defamation police on yo' doorstep.
    
    MikeL
    
    
    
                      

    
    Curious timing on the firing.  I'm wondering if Bidwell has someone on
    KC (HAckett?) or SF (Shanahan?) in mind, and waited until he could talk
    to them.  Other possibility is Ditka, whose contract ended last
    weekend, I believe.  Don't see Norv Turner coming here, although
    Erickson is still a possibility.  Bidwell is taking heat for waiting so
    long, but with no GM, he may have had to wait in order to have some
    staff around to go to the Senior Bowl and the other scouting
    opportunities.
    
    boC

    I guess the Pony Express is working OT.  It's been said before that all
    the assistants' contracts expired this season while Bugel had 1 year
    left.
    
    If he doesn't hire Erickson or Ditka, I'm writing them off.

    
    Ditka?  That puffed-up, over-rated, scum-bag ass?  If it is Ditka, boC
    goes into retirement, along with this note.
    
    boC

>    Ditka?  That puffed-up, over-rated, scum-bag ass?  If it is Ditka, boC
>    goes into retirement, along with this note.
>    
>    boC

How 'bout Jerry the Jeenyus Glanville.

Then you could have black and silver cardinals uniforms.....(a big travesty
in my opinion....)

	IMO, firing Bugel now is a classless act by Bidwell. It is
customary that coaches get fired the day after the regular season, or
close to it. Look at Atlanta, they have already fired Glanville and
hired a new coach. Bugel might have been considered by Atlanta if he
was available.

Ron

    
    The Atlanta job was a done deal.  Bugel is still under contract to the
    Cards for another year, for which he will get paid.  If I'm Bidwell,
    and I'm paying someone that kind of money, I'd try to get something out
    of it, like a week of scouting.  As it is, Joe still has a chance for
    the two open jobs, and all the assitant coaching jobs he wants.
    
    boC

    I'm listening to the press conference now.  The guy's still a yes-man
    even after getting his butt fired.

    
    If I could get $250K for keeping my mouth shut and doing nothing, I'd
    be yes man too.
    
    boC

    Former Phoenix defensive coordinator, Fritz Schurmur, was just hired by 
    Green Bay.  Bidwill continues to drag his feet in hiring a coach *AND*
    a GM.

>    Former Phoenix defensive coordinator, Fritz Schurmur, was just hired by 
>    Green Bay.  Bidwill continues to drag his feet in hiring a coach *AND*
>    a GM.

A guest on Mike and the Mad Dog yesterday morning went so far as to say
that Phoenix will never get to the Super Bowl as long as Bidwell owns
them.

He said that the expansion clubs have a better chance of getting to the
Super Bowl before Phoenix, given the way that Bidwell handles things....

Pretty scathing.....


'saw

    >Pretty scathing.....

    Reports out this morning say that Bidwill offered Norv Turner the head
    coaching job + the GM reponsibility.  Gee, I wonder why he's the
    Redskins' new coach...

We're hearing that Bidwill wants to go the college coach route, now.

The 2 being mentioned are Dennis Erikcon from Miami and RC Slocum from
Texas A&M.

Of course, Bidwill's a_idiot so it doesn't really matter who he hires. He
shoulda stuck with Bugel because it finally looked like the Cards we're
building something. Look for a lot of people to move so Phoenix can start
all over again, again.

TTom

Erikson would have to be crazy to take the Phoenix job.

The Crazy Met

    Bidwill has no choice but to offer the job to assistants or college
    coaches.  Nobody in their right mind would work for this nancy boy. 
    You have to be hard-up for a promotion to consider career-suicide.

    
    	Buddy to get job with the Cards...mark this down on your calendar.
    
    	hw

    Yeah the locals are all abuzz about it.  At least we know we'll have a
    decent defense (not that it was poor).

    After Buddy is hired, it'll be the first time in 14 years that we'll
    have a coach at Sun Devil Stadium that will beat on the players.

>>   <<< Note 132.361 by FRETZ::HEISER "Hey! Ho! Hey! Ho! Hey! Ho! Hey! Ho!" >>>

>>    After Buddy is hired, it'll be the first time in 14 years that we'll
>>    have a coach at Sun Devil Stadium that will beat on the players.

I thought it was just other coaches that he beat on.  I didn't know that
he hit his players, too.

Jerry

>I thought it was just other coaches that he beat on.  I didn't know that
>he hit his players, too.

Is Buddy from the Woody Hayes school of coaching?????

    Buddy, Woody Hayes, Frank Kush,...

Bill Musselman, Bobby Knight...
all very politically uncorrect (a trait I often admire, but not in these guys)

dr.a

    Now it turns out that Bidwill offered Turner $100K more per year (than
    Cooke offered) as well.  Norv said he was leaning toward Phoenix before
    he arrived in Washingotn.  "When I got here (Tuesday), I was thinking
    in another direction.  After I met with Mr. Cooke, he told me to 'wise
    up,' and I accepted the job."  Turner pointed to the Redskins' winning
    tradition as a factor and also the uneasiness of working with Bidwill.
    
    BC Coach Coughlin was approached but didn't want to leave New England. 
    Likewise for 'Canes coach Erickson.  
    
    Buddy Ryan said, "I always believed you could win there...If they want
    a new coach, I'd approach *them*."  The key will be on how well he gets
    along with Bidwill.  Current rumors are that there will be a press
    conference this afternoon.
    
    MoC

�The key will be on how well he gets
�    along with Bidwill.  
    
    I don't think Buddy really cares about how he gets along with the
    owner.

    I take it Mike H. has jumped on yet another Phoenix sports bandwagon.

    Well it's official (just watched the press conference):  Buddy Ryan is
    the new head coach & GM.  He has a 4 year contract, saying that's all
    he wanted.  He said hopefully it won't take that long to win the Super
    Bowl and that this will be his last coaching stop (yeah right). 
    However, this may be exactly the coach the Cards need.  Bidwill will be
    happy too since the season ticket office phones must be ringing off the
    hook.  BTW - Bill Walsh and Mike Ditka were also contacted and both
    were't interested.  Buddy was the only high profile guy interested and
    he contacted Bidwill first when the job opened up.
    
    Phoenix used to be such a quiet, calm, laidback city.  First Barkley,
    now Buddy in the same city.  Folks haven't been this psyched since
    Charles rolled into town.  With these 2, lots of Philly fans are now
    Phoenix fans.
    
    Look for Ryan to grab some coaches and players out of Houston, not to
    mention Philadelphia too.  Seth Joyner, Clyde Simmons, Richard Dent, 
    and Dishman are free agents and were specifically mentioned by Buddy.  
    
    When asked about his offensive philosophy, he said that offenses that
    mix it up are the hardest to stop.  He will be using a 2-back set
    (Hearst and Moore, which fans are screaming to Bugel to use),
    4-receiver sets, double tight-ends, lots of motion, etc.
    
    Finally, and most importantly, he is 8-0 against Jimmie Johnson and we
    all know there's no love lost between the two.  Ryan brashly stated,
    "I'm looking forward to playing the Cowboys twice per year."
    
    MoC

    >    I take it Mike H. has jumped on yet another Phoenix sports bandwagon.

    The new head coach and general manager of the Cardinals has been
    introduced --- James David "Buddy" Ryan.
    
    The press conference was carried live on the all sports station here in
    Philadelphia. The agent for Clyde Simmons and Seth Joyner (both are
    represented by the same guy) has said that as soon as they are truly
    free (I think it's Feb 18), he (the agent) will be in touch with Buddy.
    
    Dennis Faust
    

    Dennis, careful or Mac will call you a bandwagon jumper.
    
    It's funny, people that stick to their eastern allegiances are
    chastised here for not supporting the locals.  In SPROTS, you're a
    bandwagon jumper.

    Ryan will make it alot more interresting to be a Cardinals fan. If Mac
    would like to call me a bandwagon jumper, that's fine. I look at it as
    being consistent. I've been a Ryan fan for a while now. Buddy will
    probably put some fannies in seats in Phoenix, and I'm sure that was
    one of the reasons Bidwell hired him.
    
    It's going to be a tough call for me when the Cardinals and Eagles play
    next season. Bet you the first one is a MNF game, or at least a national
    broadcast.
    
    
    Dennis Faust
    

Yeah, and Buddy will prolly take the Cardinals to at least
as many Super Bowl as he did the Iggles.

Well, Buddy might not take the team to the Super Bowl, but he'll make
it damned interesting for them to watch the action going on on the 
sidelines......


'Saw

    
>>    It's funny, people that stick to their eastern allegiances are
>>    chastised here for not supporting the locals.  In SPROTS, you're a
>>    bandwagon jumper.


	Mike, it really isn't that tough.  Being the transplanted 
	Pittsburgh native here in New England I've learned to adopt a
	dual fan method.  

	1) My first allegiance will always be to the teams from the 'burgh.
	However, I don't hesitate to support the local teams, too.  I
	attend all the local pro sports teams games I have the opportunity
	to as well as watch them on the tube whenever possible.  

	2) I do not go out of my way to bash these local teams when they 
	are doing poorly, nor do I go out of my way to hoot and holler when 
	they do well.

	3) I draw the line at wearing the latest in trendy fashion displaying
	the logos of the New England teams, though.  I mean a guy has to
	draw the line somewhere.

	4) The only time I have ever rooted against one of the local teams was
	when the were playing a team from the 'burgh.  See rule #1  

	It works for me, but, of course, your milage may vary.


	billl

    
    It's not so much that MikeH is jumping on a bandwagon as that he's
    doing so after banging on the Cardinals unmercilessly for years (and
    not out of any genuine caring for the team).  Frankly, I didn't think 
    guys like Gene Stallings and Joe Bugel were such bad coaches; Bidwell
    has been the problem.  So why get fired up about Buddy Ryan?
    
    The hiring of Buddy Ryan is just another quick-fix approach with some 
    grandstanding to the yahoo contingent thrown in to sell tickets.  It's 
    something a team like the Patriots would have tried in the old days 
    before they smartened up.  The Cards would have been much better off 
    with a Norv Turner or a Dennis Erickson or any number of young guys 
    who would be patient in building a winner.  Those guys were too smart 
    to have anything to do with Bidwell.  Look for Ryan to have some brief
    moderate success (this isn't a bad team right now; they were very
    unlucky this season under Bugel, but progress had been made), followed
    by the explosive, flaming, train-wreck of a departure.  Signing all
    those old Eagle defenders to big contracts will be mistake #1...
    
    glenn
    

    Mike is a big Celtics fan until Charles Barkely comes to Phoenix.
    
    Mike is a big non-Phoenix Cardinals fan until Buddy Ryan comes to
    Phoenix.
    
    I apologize for seeing a pattern here.
    
    Mike, you do a disservice to Dennis Faust with your remark.  

>>   <<< Note 132.369 by FRETZ::HEISER "Hey! Ho! Hey! Ho! Hey! Ho! Hey! Ho!" >>>
>>                             -< Buddy is the man >-

>>    Finally, and most importantly, he is 8-0 against Jimmie Johnson and we
>>    all know there's no love lost between the two.  Ryan brashly stated,
>>    "I'm looking forward to playing the Cowboys twice per year."
    
I can't believe that people are making such a big deal out of this.
Sure he's 8-0, but so what.  He was able to beat JJ when he was coaching
one of the best teams in the NFL, and JJ was rebuilding.  Heck, everyone
was beating Dallas at the time.

Let's see how he'll do against JJ now that the 'Boys are back.

Jerry

�    something a team like the Patriots would have tried in the old days 
�    before they smartened up.  
    
    You mean like signing Bill Parcells?

>�    something a team like the Patriots would have tried in the old days 
>�    before they smartened up.  
>    
>    You mean like signing Bill Parcells?
    
    I mean like they signed Bill Parcells when they were serious about
    winning.  Bill Parcells is a very knowedgeable football man, and unlike
    Buddy Ryan is actually a stable human being!  Please don't tell me you're
    still in the Mac-got-screwed-by-mgmt stage of denial, Mac.  Parcells,
    Bill Walsh et. al. are proven coaches of ability and *stability* who
    wouldn't give a Bill Bidwell the time of day...
    
    glenn
    

    Looks like Buddy has already put Bidwell on the spot with all this free
    agent talk.  Now if bidwell doesn't sign enough to please buddy and
    cards continue to lose, ryan has his excuse.
    
    But ryan has enough to qualify for playoffs with a few draft choices
    and the weakening of wash,nygiants (you'll see),philly,chic.  That is
    the old power structure is not as dominating.
    
    bill

�    I mean like they signed Bill Parcells when they were serious about
�    winning.  Bill Parcells is a very knowedgeable football man, and unlike
�    Buddy Ryan is actually a stable human being!  Please don't tell me you're
�    still in the Mac-got-screwed-by-mgmt stage of denial, Mac.  Parcells,
�    Bill Walsh et. al. are proven coaches of ability and *stability* who
�    wouldn't give a Bill Bidwell the time of day...
    
    I never said I didn't like what Parcells has brought to this franchise. 
    I simply questioned some of his decisions and the hero-worship that
    surrounded him.  And do you really think that the Pats did not sign
    Parcells knowing that he would be a big drawing card.  Do you think
    that big wave of season ticket purchases that followed the announcement
    that Parcells was hired took the Pats' front office by complete
    surprise?

    
>    And do you really think that the Pats did not sign
>    Parcells knowing that he would be a big drawing card.  Do you think
>    that big wave of season ticket purchases that followed the announcement
>    that Parcells was hired took the Pats' front office by complete
>    surprise?        
    
    It doesn't matter.  It was a very sound football decision.  If the ticket
    sales follow (and they should), so be it.  I question that this is a
    sound football decision by the Cardinals.  That's my opinion.  If
    ticket sales are the motivation rather than the logical result then the
    interest will be short-lived (per almost the entire history of the
    Chicago/St Louis/Phoenix Cardinals). 
    
    glenn
    
                                       

    Obviously, the season ticket office has been busy, but Ryan's head
    coaching record doesn't sound too bad.  His last 3 years at Philly 
    saw him win 10, 11, and 11 games.  He was 0-3 in the playoffs, but his
    teams were banged up in round 1.
    
    Turner, Walsh, Erickson, Coughlin, and Ditka were all contacted.  They
    also all refused to work with Bidwill.  He had no choice to hire Buddy. 
    He was the only high-profile guy out there that would make the team
    move competitive and put fannies in the seats.
    
    This year's schedule is an interesting one too:  outside of Ryan's NFC
    East ties/rivalries, Phoenix plays in Houston.

    
    Picked a bad week to be gone....
    
    I'm not excited by the pick, but neither am I surprised.  As this
    notesfile's #1 Cards fan, I guess I'll have to support the pick.  Until
    the first bounty, that is.  It coulda been worse, it coulda been Mike
    Shanahan.  With what Bidwell has left himself with, this is probably
    the best pick, especially if he can bring in some good FAs.  What I
    don't agree with is making him GM.  Ryan was never known as a great
    judge of talent or organization (he's admitted he's stupid), so why put
    him in aposition that requires those skills?  Fred Ackles did a very
    good job in the last year, and I'm wondering what's going to happen to
    him.  I ws hoping to have him named GM.
    
    boC
    

    *Bob* Ackles has already interviewed with the Eagles.

    Why is it Bruce......
    
    That when Buddy Ryan speaks his mind he's considered an a**hole and
    when Buddy Ryan kicks a team when he's got them down he's considered
    an a**hole BUT when JJ speaks his mind and when JJ gets tough with a
    team he's considered a good, innovative, motivating, breath of fresh
    air coach.  Hmmmmm
    
    Personally I like Buddy...and I hope he kicks some nfl east butt.
    
    
    Frank Mendez
    

�    That when Buddy Ryan speaks his mind he's considered an a**hole and
�    when Buddy Ryan kicks a team when he's got them down he's considered
�    an a**hole BUT when JJ speaks his mind and when JJ gets tough with a
�    team he's considered a good, innovative, motivating, breath of fresh
�    air coach.  Hmmmmm
    
    JJ is the head coach of a 2 time Super Bowl Champ.
    
    Actually, I've seen a**hole tag on JJ quite a few times around here,
    even recently.

An asshole who's accomplished nothing as a head coach is an asshole.

An asshole who's earned two Super Bowl rings as a head coach is an
asshole with two Super Bowl rings.   

BIG difference......

IMO it's the best thing that's ever happened to the Cardinals. Buddy is a
players coach and will have the team  doing back handsprings for him. He'll
sign some good defensive free agents and get the defense on track. Phoenix has
enough talent right now to be a contender and Buddy knows how to use his talent
effectively.

I don't agree with his cheap shot and bounty tactics but he will improve the
team. 

The cards truly have a chance to do something now.

If he can avoid self destruction he'll have them in the playoffs next year and
in the NFC finals in 3 years....


Metz

    reply to the last few...
    
    So clarify for me.....Its okay to be an a**hole as long as you win?
    
    Frank Mendez
    

>    
>    So clarify for me.....Its okay to be an a**hole as long as you win?
>    


No, it's never okay to be an asshole.  Well, an asshole is useful and does
have a purpose, but aside from that no, it's not okay.

It's just that assholes with SB rings are a little more palatable I guess....

hth,
'Saw    

    >It's just that assholes with SB rings are a little more palatable I guess....

    I don't recall even JJ ever taking a swing at another coach on the
    sidelines.  Who's going to work for Buddy Ryan?  Only someone willing 
    to be completely subservient to His Absolute Authority.  And as brews 
    pointed out this now applies to both the front office and the 
    sidelines.  For better or for worse, it's now The Buddy Ryan Show
    playing in Phoenix.  I think the guy's tremendously overrated.  He is
    an excellent defensive coordinator and a good motivator but that
    doesn't mean I'd want to turn the entire operation over to him.  To
    have some success over the long haul requires organizational 
    cooperation.  Buddy doesn't know the meaning of the word.  I think if
    he's going to make an impact it had better be this year, because in the
    3 years that Metz referred to Buddy will be either fired for outrageous
    insubordination or dead, or maybe both.
    
    glenn
    

    >    sidelines.  Who's going to work for Buddy Ryan?  Only someone willing 
    
    He says he has his own staff already.  He claimed they're just waiting
    for him to give the green light before they start packing.  His defensive 
    coordinator is probably a yes-man or at least thinks like Buddy.  The key 
    now is the offensive coordinator's position.

I'll bet he doesn't try to hire Kevin Gilbride as offensive coordinator.

Regarding the Jimmy Johnson vs. Buddy Ryan debate, I don't see how
you can even make the comparison.  Buddy goes out of his way to
irritate people, even those on his side.  At least Johnson uses some
tact.  I can understand how SF fans can be upset with him after the
NFC Championship guarantee, but I've never heard him make any derogatory
remarks toward other teams, coaches or players.  Most of what he
says is in praise of his own players, not to slur the abilities of
players on opposing teams.  Maybe you don't see the difference, but
I sure do.

Jerry

    reply to .395
    
    People were calling Buddy an a**hole long before he threw a punch at
    a coach.  And besides,  nobody knows the real reason Buddy threw a punch
    at Gilbride.
    
    I personally believe that Buddy is a winner and will lead the Cardinals
    to a playoff appearance.  He may not be liked by some people but his
    players like him and will play hard for him.  I seem to recall Buddy 
    taking the Eagles to the playoffs a few times.  Granted they did not
    win, but he got them there and perhaps with more time could have gotten
    them further.  He did not have an offensive powerhouse at Philadelphia.
    
    Frank Mendez

    JJ praised Buffalo and their accomplishments after the last SB.

	JJ will always be an anal cavity to 9er fans!

 Cadzilla2

    I am a 49er fan and was not real upset with JJ's prediction.  Not
    a real big JJ fan but have stated in the past that he is a good
    coach with talent at all positions.  I was just wondering why JJ's
    style is considered good and innovative etc etc etc but Buddy with
    basically the same kind of attitude is considered an a**hole.
    
    Frank Mendez
    

    Frank, JJ has had his share of detractors.  As is usually the case they
    either go silent or get drowned out when championship rings get passed
    out.

If you want to look at personalities, just look at Marv Levy.  I've
never heard anyone say anything bad about his style, mannerisms or
any other personal characteristics.  And it's hard to fault his
abilities as a coach.  Just look at what he's done.  4 consecutive
super bowl appearances ain't exactly chopped liver.

But after the last two super bowl losses, I've heard my share of
criticisms about his play calling and game day coaching in general.

My point?  It doesn't matter one whit whether you're the nicest guy
in the world or the biggest jerk, or if you win or lose.  If you're
in there doing it, and in the public eye, someone's gonna find fault 
with what you do and the way you're doing it.

Of course, some guys give you more reasons to dislike them than
others, so I guess it's all just a matter of degree.  Kind of like the
punchline to the old joke "We've already establish what you are, we're
just haggling over the price."

Jerry

    Buddy just hired Ronnie Jones (from Oilers) as the DC and Dave Atkins?
    (Askins - running back coach from New England) as the OC.

    Bob Ackles was appointed to Assistant GM yesterday.  With Ackles' and
    Butthead's player evaluation abilities, the Cards should be in good
    mid-term (5-6 years) shapes.  I'm feeli8ng better about Butthead,
    thinking that he can get them going for the next 2-3 years, until he
    gets fired.  By that time, the personnel will have improved, and we can
    get a real coach.
    
    Apparently Parcell's wasn't happy about his ex-backfield coach who got
    named OC leaving to come here.
    
    BoC  

    
    Saw that Butthaid hired Butthaid Lite, his son, to the defensive
    coaching squad.  The kid probably never gave Buddy any lip his entire
    life... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    
    One of his sons was head coach at some small college somewhere.  I'm
    not sure if this is the same one.  Butthead did say that the only
    advantage this son had is that he was more accustomed to Butthead's
    rantings.
    
    BoC

>    One of his sons was head coach at some small college somewhere.  I'm
>    not sure if this is the same one.  Butthead did say that the only
    
    It's the same one - Moorehead State

    
    I figgered it was.  With all the nepotism in pro coaching nowadays
    (Shula, Phillips), it shouldn't be that big a deal.  My onnly concern
    is that they made him the DL coach.  In my opinion, that is an
    important area for the Cards, especially with a rookie pro coach.
    
    The cards should name the remaining to assistants in the next few days. 
    That will give them ten.  While not quite Brownsian heights, it seems
    like a boatload of coaches.
    
    BoC

    
    Well, as a remote Cardinal fan (since Neil Lomax) who roots for the
    team when the Pats aren't playing them, I'm psyched about the decision!
    
    And re. Parcells:
    
    I'm a *die-hard* Pats fan.  I really hope Bill is our saviour.  But to 
    play devil's advocate a little here...  Bill had a mostly crappy first
    season - worse than Mac's.  And but for *one* stubborn decision (Scott
    Sisson), he very likely would have gotten a Wild Card (lost the first 
    game, but made it nonetheless).  And there is little doubt in my mind that 
    the 2nd choice for the Pats last year (Buddy) would have had the Pats in
    the Wild Card.  I'm not saying he's the best.  But Parcells ain't 
    perfect either.
    
    I'm glad Buddy's out there coaching somewhere.  To see him sweep NY and
    Dallas would truly be sweet.
    
    - Sean
    - Sean

    
    Cards named Eric Hill and Luis Sharpe their fanchise and transition
    players.  The big news on that is that Ken Harvey is now an unfettered
    FA.  The guess is that they didn't want ot pick up the $2.5M option. 
    Might also mean Buddy has someone in the wings...
    
    boC 

    yeah, probably someone from Philly or Houston or both...

>    Cards named Eric Hill and Luis Sharpe their fanchise and transition
>    players.  The big news on that is that Ken Harvey is now an unfettered
    
    exactly what is the deal with this (haven't been paying attention).  Is
    this for expansion draft protection or something?

    
    It's the NFL's limited version of free agency.  Each team gets to
    protect two players, the franchise player cannot be signed by any other
    team while the transition player can have his contract matched by his
    original team.  Any other palyer whose contract expires is an
    unrestricted FA.
    
    brews

    The rub is that there are draft choices connected to signing these
    "free" agents.  I am truly curious as to what the nflpa actually got
    out of that last extended bargaining session with judgements (against)
    nfl already in their pocket.

�I am truly curious as to what the nflpa actually got
�    out of that last extended bargaining session with judgements (against)
�    nfl already in their pocket.
    
    When a lineman can get $2.5 million/year for 4 years (see Bruce
    Armstrong, New England Patriots), it's safe to say they got something.

    Mac,
    	Armstrong got a great deal and I'm happy for him.  And you and I
    would be ecstatic over a million/per (I know you're worth more).  But
    the jury is out and my implication is
    
    1.  NFLPA won case in court and were in a buyers market
    
    2.  NFL has survived tv scare, have expansion bucks coming in, sales of
    teams are at all time high (exhibit a. ne patriots neepatsies)..blah,blah
    
    3.  I want to see where average salaries after this round of free
    agents etc become noticeably higher and start to approach the other two
    sports.

    Cards have announced a press conference in one hour.  There's all sorts
    of speculation since Sean Jones and Seth Joyner will be in attendance.

    Monday's press conference was a real faux pas.  It was as bad as Reggie
    White's whirlwind tour of the NFL: "Yeah I'm here and I'm interested,
    but will visit other cities too."
    
    As Buddy continues his addition by subtraction, speculation abounds. 
    Garrison Hearst and Rich Camarillo ($.5M punter) may be traded so that
    Buddy can hire his old buddies.

    
    Camarillo getting dumped makes since.  The Cards saved $300K by
    bringing in a cheaper, yet poorer punter, freeing up some bucks for
    FA's.  I hope they aren't giving up on Hearst this early though. 
    Everyone is talking about Ron Moore like he's the greatest.  While he
    had a good season, he isn't in the Barry Sanders class, which Hearst
    may be.  
    
    It seems that this salary cap has affected teams much more than the NBA
    cap did.  I think it was set too low, and may end up really hurting the
    game.  Can't believe the NFLPA went along with it.  Or did they?
    
    boC

    >    bringing in a cheaper, yet poorer punter, freeing up some bucks for
    
    they say Feagle's net yardage is only 2 less than Camarillo's.  They
    signed Feagle for 4 years, he was on KTAR last night.

    
    The dumb thing about this is the wasted a lot of time in signing
    Camarillo before he became a FA, and didn't have the time to get some
    of their current FA signed.  I'd rather see them signeing a Massey or
    Hill back then, and worry about hte punter later.
    
    boC
    

    
    � >    bringing in a cheaper, yet poorer punter, freeing up some bucks for
    � 
    � they say Feagle's net yardage is only 2 less than Camarillo's.  They
    � signed Feagle for 4 years, he was on KTAR last night
    
    Dueling Patriot rejects.
    
    (actually, that's a compliement, given the performance of most of our
    giveaways)

�    they say Feagle's net yardage is only 2 less than Camarillo's.  
    
    Replacing one ex-Pat for another.  I never understood why the Pats let
    Camarillo go.

   > Replacing one ex-Pat for another.  I never understood why the Pats let   
   > Camarillo go.
    
    Didn't make sense to me either, Mac.  At least the Cards decision makes
    some sense.
    
    boC

    Clyde Simmons was here today.

    At your site?  That's pretty cool.  I know ML Carr has been to our site
    before.
    

    No actually the Cards office is a couple miles from me.

    Buddy gambles and loses as the 'Skins sign Ken Harvey.  He was one of
    the linebackers Buddy actually wanted to keep.  If Phoenix signs
    Joyner, they'll forget about Harvey.

    the Cards have called a 1:30 press conference and rumor has it they're
    changing their name to the Arizona Cardinals.

    Are there any cardinals in Arizona?

Must be an alphabetical order thang...

    I heard that Phoenix would switch divisions with Atlanta.

    >    Are there any cardinals in Arizona?
    
    Only 2 states have more than 1 species of Cardinals: Texas and Arizona.

    [email protected] articles by Thu, 17 Mar 94:

--------
Subject: Cards Dump Phoenix For Arizona
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 94 16:00:07 PST
 
	TEMPE, Ariz. (AP) -- The Phoenix Cardinals will change their name
to the Arizona Cardinals to reflect the statewide presence they've
achieved since moving from St. Louis in 1988, owner Bill Bidwill
announced Thursday.
	``We've been listening to the Arizona fans. We believe this is
what they want the team to be called,'' Bidwill said at a news
conference.
	The Cardinals conduct preseason training in Flagstaff, play
their home games at Sun Devil Stadium in the Phoenix suburb of
Tempe and sell tickets throughout the state, Bidwill said.
	``We are an Arizona team. We've worn the Arizona flag on our
white (home) jerseys since 1989,'' Bidwill said. ``This is really
just part of the natural transition that we've been going
through.''
	The name change requires approval by the NFL, but Bidwill said
that will come next week during the league's annual meeting in
Orlando, Fla.
	``I don't think the NFL is going to say `no,''' Bidwill said.
``It's a formality, I believe.''
	In a statement released by the Cardinals, NFL commissioner Paul
Tagliabue said he supported changing the name and was sure the
owners would go along.
	The Cardinals also unveiled a new logo with the new name below a
sideview of a cardinal's head in front of red and yellow rays of a
setting sun, the latter elements coming from the state flag.
	When the Cardinals arrived in Arizona, they drew some criticism
for their decision to replace St. Louis with Phoenix, not Arizona.
	In hindsight, Bidwill said Thursday, ``We might even,
facetiously, have a contest to see who writes the best `I told you
so' column.''
	When Bidwill announced in January 1988 that he was moving the
team from St. Louis, Phoenix-area lawyers, politicians and
university officials donned red-and-white unofficial ``Arizona
Cardinals'' hats to celebrate.
	However, Bidwill soon revealed that Phoenix would be the name.
	Ironically, the Cardinals had to fight to use the ``Phoenix
Cardinals'' name, reaching a settlement in 1989 in a court fight
with a Scottsdale decal company that had incorporated in 1985 as
Phoenix Cardinals Inc. A lawyer for the team said the settlement
included paying the decal company's legal fees but not a settlement
payment.

    
    Cards signed Simmons.  Is Joyner next???
    boC

    re .436
    
    A turd by any other name is still a turd.
    
    Schnorttt Schittt Schleppps
    
    JaKe
    

And remember,

	You can't polish a turd....

    Arizona Cardinals sign Clyde Simmons-5 yrs 14.5 million.

    There seems to be a couple reasons behind this new name, both cemented
    in revenue and not state identity.  One is that they are last or 
    next-to-last in NFL merchandise sales.  They redesigned the logo to 
    include more black so all the gangs in South Phoenix have a new team color 
    to wear.  Secondly, now their core group of fans have to go out and buy 
    new shirts and hats.  

    
    Joyner was in town yesterday, saying there was only a couple things
    that needed to get taken care of before he signed a contract. 
    Apparently things have broken off in Philly, and it sounds like Joyner
    should be here by weekend.  
    
    McMahon is here also, talking to Buddy.  I expect him to sign on as the
    bacvkup (Chandler is gone).  He says he wants to settle down, in one
    last place.  He's a pretty good family guy, and Phoenix would be good
    in that regard.  
    
    Keith Jackson is also be talked about.  Don't know where they'd find
    room under the cap, but it would be fun to watch Clark, Proehl, and and
    Jackson with Hearst in the backfield.
    
    boC

    The D is shaping up, but the O is a question mark.
    
>    McMahon is here also, talking to Buddy.  I expect him to sign on as the
>    bacvkup (Chandler is gone).  He says he wants to settle down, in one
    
    When these guys are being replaced, like Chandler and Camarillo, can
    the Cards apply their salary spots toward free agents?  Or is it like
    the NBA where you're still responsible for their salaries until they
    join another team?
    
    >Keith Jackson is also be talked about.  Don't know where they'd find
>    room under the cap, but it would be fun to watch Clark, Proehl, and and
>    Jackson with Hearst in the backfield.
    
    I thought I heard Miami wants Hearst for Jackson?!  Is Keith a FA?

    
    >When these guys are being replaced, like Chandler and Camarillo,
    >can    the Cards apply their salary spots toward free agents?
    
    The cap is new enough that you just have to be under it, you don't have
    all the exclusions and funny rules like in the NBA.
    
    Hearst for Jackson?  No way.  Ron Moore proved a serviceable running
    back, but not a franchise player, the way Hearst could be.
    
    
    boC

    There was a strong tremor in Tempe about an hour ago with the epicenter
    around the Arizona Cardinals' HQ.  The Cards' bandwagon had stopped and
    the tremor was caused by all the Cowgirl fans jumping on.

    Sorry Mike.  Things aren't nearly that bad in Big-D!
    
    - Rope
    

    Well we'll certainly find out who was more important in Dallas: Jimmy,
    Troy, or Emmitt.

    
    	This is rich.  The most important guy in Dallas is Jones.
    	He's got the money!
    
    Claybone

    They were 0-2 last year w/o Emmitt and Jones' $$

    
    	So, you really think Emmit is gonna sit out (ie not get paid)
    	cuz JJ got canned?
    
    Claybone

Regarding Emmitt, the quote I read was "If the fire Jimmy, they fire
me."

Jimmy didn't get fired, he resigned.  This should make a difference to
Emmitt, and at least give him an out regarding his statement.  


Jerry

    C'mon, Emmitt isn't no idjit.  Based on his performance last season
    after returning to the team, he can force Jones to renegotiate again
    and really cramp the whole organization.

    
    	Damn right Emmit ain't no idjit.  He'll play and cash those
    	paychecks (from Jones....the man w/ the money).
    
    Claybone

    The way the 'Boys played with him and without him, Emmitt is underpaid.

     He's got a new contract.
    
     He will play. Said so himself. Said after his talk with JJ that he
    would give Berry a chance.
    
    

    The Cards have offered Garrison Hearst + their 10th pick to Cincinnati
    for their first pick.

    
    Joyner should be signed today or tomorrow.  I know, I've said that
    before, but this time I mean it.
    
    brews

    Rumor mill said he was waiting for his divorce to be final so he didn't
    have to pay alimony on the new deal.

    That's what has been reported in Phiadelphia, as well.
    
    Dennis Faust
    

    Gotta love the last paragraph in this one:
    
    [email protected] articles by Fri/Sat, 1/2 Apr 94:

       : Lance Smith Signs with Giants

--------
Subject: Lance Smith Signs with Giants
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 94 6:50:15 PST
 
	EAST RUTHERFORD, N.J. (AP) -- Offensive guard Lance Smith is
leaving the Arizona Cardinals and coming to the New York Giants as
a free agent.
	Smith and the Giants came to terms on a three-year deal
reportedly worth $4 million. He made $725,000 last year with the
Cardinals.
	Smith played at Louisiana State when Giants offensive line coach
Peter Mangurian was on the coaching staff at the school, and was
selected in the third round of the 1985 draft by the Cardinals.
	The Giants are acquiring the 6-foot-3, 286-pound Smith to fill
the gap created when Bob Kratch left to sign with the New England
Patriots.
	The club is also close to re-signing tackle Doug Riesenberg to a
four-year, $8 million contract. Both contracts would help solidify
the team's 1994 offensive line.
	The Green Bay Packers, New Orleans Saints and Atlanta Falcons
were interested in signing Smith, and he even received a late bid
from the Cardinals on Thursday.
	``He originally was a St. Louis Cardinal,'' said Peter Shaffer,
his agent. ``That means he does not know how to spell the word
`playoff.' He is a competitor and he has been dying to play for a
winner. That was a huge factor in his choosing the Giants.''

>  Gotta love the last paragraph in this one:
	
>>``He originally was a St. Louis Cardinal,'' said Peter Shaffer,
>>his agent. ``That means he does not know how to spell the word
>>`playoff.' He is a competitor and he has been dying to play for a
>>winner. That was a huge factor in his choosing the Giants.''

    
coming from a Pats fan the statement at the top is truly precious.

The Crazy Met

    
    The divorce thing ain't right.  As his agent said "it ain't like the
    judge don't know what's going on, he reads the papers."
    
    boC

�coming from a Pats fan the statement at the top is truly precious.
    
    Being a Jets fan, TCM I would have thought you'd know about the several
    Patriot playoff games in the 80's, including a Super Bowl berth in '85.

    Well now I know why Buddy wants to move up in the draft.  I figured
    maybe he wanted to do something smart with the offense and go after
    Faulk, especially when he's using Hearst as bait.  But NO, he wants
    Wilkinson, the Big-10's Defensive POY.  He says Wilkinson reminds him
    of the late-great Jerome Brown and that players like him come along
    once every 10 years.
    
    MoC

    
    I thought that was obvious, MoC.  why move up by trading Hearst to get
    Faulk?  
    
    boC

hey would you two get your signatures straightened out??

I mean either have 'em as MoC and BoC or moC and boC.
Lets get some consistency here!


The Crazy Met
 

    I've always been boC, except in .457 where I screwed up.  
    
    bOc

>
>I mean either have 'em as MoC and BoC or moC and boC.
>Lets get some consistency here!
>

Well, that's better than Com Cob..... 

    It wasn't obvious to me, I guess.  I don't see Ron Moore as the back of
    the future.  They still need an all-down, breakaway back like Hearst
    and Faulk and I figured they wanted to dump the damaged back for a new
    one.

Buddy Ryan don't want no steenkin' offense. 

The Crazy Met

    To his credit though, the new rule changes will make a great D even
    more important.

Didn't Buddy make some comments about Hearst not being very good, etc?

Bet he wishes he had kept his mouth shut, now that he wants to use him
as trade bait.  But everybody knows that Buddy is his own worst
enemy.

Jerry

    
     re his own worst enemy
    
     Buddy'll come into Phoenix as a savior and leave an obnxoious,
    glad-to-get-rid-of-him big mouth. Inside of the first month of
    the season, he will have offended the city (easy to do), the owner
    and at least six players. Buddy's a good defensive coordinator
    and knows defensive talent but he doesn't have the organizational 
    skills or the diplomacy to run the whole show. I give him two years
    in Phoenix and then Bidwill will be sick of being publicly embar-
    assed and can Buddy.

   > I give him two years in Phoenix and then Bidwill will be sick of
   > being publicly embarassed and can Buddy. 
    
    As long as he gets them to the playoffs, as he did in Philly, that's
    fine with me.  Then we can rehire a nice guy like Joe Bugel.  
    
    Buddy said that he wasn't happy with Hearst working out in Georgia, and
    not here.  Didn't really put him down too much--yet.
    
    boC

    I also wouldn't put too much stock in what Ryan says he will do in the
    draft. When he was with the Eagles, he said that the Birds wouldn't
    draft Keith Byars (called him a medical reject), Jerome Brown or Keith
    Jackson. He sends LOTS of smoke screens so no one is sure what he'll
    do.
    
    DENNIS fAUST
    

    I *like* that in a GM.  That's what Red used to do before Oletimer's(tm) 
    set in.

    Even I can't figure this out.  Buddy says he can't give Hearst away
    because nobody wants him.  Then he says he wants Wilkinson *BAD*!  
    Then he offers Hearst to the Bengals so that he can draft Wilkinson. 
    It's probably his way of conning everyone since he really wants Faulk
    ;-)

       Cardinals and Joyner finally come to terms.  The really interesting   
    thing about this deal is that, according to Joyner's agent, Seth was   
    offered more money by both SF and Philly.  I can't think of a time when   
    the Cardinals didn't have to outbid everyone in order to sign a FA.   
    
    Now that Joyner is off the boards, look for SF to concentrate and sign   
    Norton.  It'll also give Buddy a chance to sign a few other FAs who've
    been in limbo until this deal got worked out.    
    
    boC

>    Now that Joyner is off the boards, look for SF to concentrate and sign   
>    Norton.  It'll also give Buddy a chance to sign a few other FAs who've
>    been in limbo until this deal got worked out.    
    
    Brews, who else are they interested in?  Anyone on offense?

    McMahon will be signed after June 1st.  Buddy doesn't seem to be
    worried about the OL (I am).  After June 1st a bunch of money can be
    freed by cutting some vets--bye bye Chris Chandler.
    
    boC

    who cares about McMahon!  Remember Derrick Kinnard, who the Cards
    traded for Massey?  the cowgirls just signed him for a measly $800K. 
    Why Buddy didn't grab him is beyond me.  He's expecting the rookies from
    last year to step in, but they couldn't even stay healthy all year.

    > Now that Joyner is off the boards, look for SF to concentrate and sign      
    > Norton. 
    
    
    Boy, boC, since so one else will say it, let me.  You hit that one on
    the head.
    
    I remain, an admirer of your awesome NFL figgerin,
    Brews

    The Niners have no choice with their defense.  On top of Norton,
    they'll have to trade up in the draft to get a blue chip linebacker
    as well.
    
    how's that for NFL figgerin,
    Mike

    Buddy on trading next year's first-round pick: "I'd do it because next
    year it will be down in the 20's."

    Cards have sold 40K+ season tickets so far this year.  That's 40%
    increase over last year's number with several months to go.  Seems to
    be a combination of last year's finish and Buddy ball.
    
    boC

 you mean it isn't cause they all want to meet BoC??? Maybe Brews' former
 neighbor has something to do with this......

 mike

    
    Bad news for Glenn.  The Cards cut yet another mistake from the George
    Boone days.  Their first pick of the '92 draft, Tony Sacca is gone. 
    This clearsd room for McMahon and leaves Wil furrer as the 3rd string
    QB. 
     
    
    brews

>    Bad news for Glenn.  The Cards cut yet another mistake from the George
>    Boone days.  Their first pick of the '92 draft, Tony Sacca is gone. 
    
    No skin off my butt.  I was more or less a member of the "string up
    that stiff Sacca" club, at least until his last PSU home game in 1991 
    when he lit up Notre Dame, at which point I jumped on the bandwagon...
    
    glenn
    

    
    What about Toad Blackledge?  or was he Pitt?  (my apologies if he was).
    
    

    
>    What about Toad Blackledge?  or was he Pitt?  (my apologies if he was).
    
    Naw, he was Penn State, and far superior to "Sack-a (insert your
    favorite waste product here)", but didn't do much in the NFL, certainly
    less than one of the all-time greats like Plum... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    >one of the all-time greats like Plum...
    
    Okay, I just noticed that smiley ;-)  - You were kidding
    
    But I still think Miltie had that games sans interception record before
    Starr

Hey, Milt led the league (or close to it) in 1960 I think....

>                        -< did they wear helmets then? >-

Yeah, they did.

1960 was the year of the last iron-man two-way player, who I believe
was Chuck Bednarik of the Eagles.

Helmets were worn in the 1950's, w/o facemasks, and I think by the
early 60s they had masks, but someone like billte would have to help
me out on that....8^)

    

      Hey Moderator,  shouldn't this topic name be changed?  The people
    from Flagstaff might get o-ffended...
    
      Tim

    
    I tried to change it once, but wasn't a technoweenie enuf.  
    
    brews

    Brews, log into LAGUNA and go to 132.0
    
    then do a MOD NOT/TITLE="Arizona Cardinals"
    

YOu're welcome.....

8^)

	They had facemask's long before the 60's . Heck we had'm when I was
playing on YMCA teams in the 50's back home in Texas. The cage mask for linemen
came around about 63 or so. Most backs and ends had the single bar.


 Cadzilla2

    Problem was as soon as helmuts were made of plastic, their use as
    offensive weapons rather than defensive protection became more and more
    prevalent.
    
    Hence the expanded facemask, also useful for spearing.
    
    The game became much worse as entertainment with the advent of plastic.
    
    Hockey is going the same way, basketball will follow.
    
    But re. the original question; 1954-58 saw the change.

Reminds me of that Shel Siverstien ditty about "It's All Plastic".

Or maybe, "The Graduate", where the future's in plastic.

TTom

    Cards grab Jamir Miller in round 1 and local Chuck Levy in round 2. 
    Buddy says Miller is ahead of Joyner at the same stage.

      Thanks 'Saw

    I say we change it back.  Nobody outside of Phoenix/Tempe goes to the
    games.

    re.504
    
    Or WOULD want to.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    Chuck Levy in the 2nd round?  Bring back george Boone!

This sorta reminds me of the Panthers. All along everything was done to
convince everyone that the team belong to the Carolinas and not just
Charlotte. 

To date, in terms of season tickets, the fans are almost exclusively from
Charlotte. In fact the response by Raleigh and Columbia has been very
weak.

TTom

    Except in this case, it was done too late.  As far as Tucson is
    concerned, the damage has been done.
    
    boC

    The Cards opened up the pre-season Lost Wages odds at 25:1 to win the
    Super Bowl.  They are now down to 13:1.  Biggest jump of any NFL team.

      Cards still need an offense, right?
    
      Will Buerlin be QB?
    
      Maybe Buddy will go to a R & S offense (-)
    
      Tim

>      Cards still need an offense, right?
    
    They were the #7 rated offense in the NFL last year.  The defense was
    #21 and that's what they have addressed the most.
    
>      Will Buerlin be QB?
    
    so far, yes.
    
>      Maybe Buddy will go to a R & S offense (-)
    
    from what I've heard, nope.
    
    They're having a Select-a-Seat thing tomorrow as well as a mini-camp
    open to the public.  Season tickets sales were at 23,000 last year and
    are now up to 40,000 already.
    
    Mike

Buddy will win in the regular season, but can he win a playoff game ?

      #7 offense last year?
    
      I only watched maybe 2 cards games and both times they seemed to be
    lucky to get past the 50.
    
      Tim

    #7 based on total yardage.  Must've been because of the 2 Redskin games
    ;-)

    
    The offense was OK last year, especially towards the end, after Gary
    Clark came back.  If they keep Hearst healthy, and he is what they
    thought he was when they drafted him,  the offense could be very good. 
    They've got three very good recievers, the offensive line is the only
    thing I'm concerned about.
    
    boC

	It's also easier to be #7 when you play a #5 schedule. Stat's have to be
taken with some scheduling subjectivity.

   Cadzilla2

  >        It's also easier to be #7 when you play a #5 schedule. Stat's
  >  have to betaken with some scheduling subjectivity.
    
    You are right.  And when you consider that six of their games were
    against the Giants, Eagles, and Cowboys, all among the leaders in
    defense in the NFL, that #7 is misleading.
    
    boC

  boC!
	Giants played basically the same schedule. Having gone 3-13 or the like
the year before the Giants proably had a easier schedule than the Cardinal's.
The Giants lack of solid D was evident against the 9er's. They had a great game
against Dallas at home, but thats nothing unusual. 

	The Cardinals offensive stats do not match its season record. With the
NFL's #7 offense I would expect to win more than 6 or 7 games. 

 Cadzilla2 

>	The Cardinals offensive stats do not match its season record. With the
>NFL's #7 offense I would expect to win more than 6 or 7 games. 
    
    The Cards, like the Pats, lost about 5 games by a total of 12 points.

    re-1
    
      So did alot of other teams

    
    Cad, go look where the Giants finished in D.
    
    The Cards are the most popular bet in Vegas for the SuperBowl.  Odd have
    dropped from 25-1 to 12-1

Brews 

  No matter were they finished in the NFL, they did it playing a last place
schedule. If they play a first place schedule I do not see them having the
same stats on "O" or "D".  Look at the NFC Central all of the teams other than
Tampa had top 10 defensive stats most of the year. They got that way playing in
a no offense division.  Did any of their teams make it past the first round?

	Now look at Dallas and SF. they both play a first place and had
defensive stats around 15th in the league. Are you going to tell me that their
defense is that weak, I think not. 

 Cadzilla2

    
    SF's defense was not a great defense.  Look at what Dallas did to it. 
    The last place schedule is overrated, imo.  You are talking about a
    schedule based on the previous year's record.  In these days of free
    agency and injuries, teams change quite a bit from one year to the
    next.  Look at the Redskins, form defending SB chanps to doormats last
    year.
    
    boC

    re: as few back.
    
    I read somewhere that Hearst will start behind the guy who started most
    of the games (I forget his name & he was in my FFL team !) Article said
    that Buddy liked his guts & grittiness and the fact that he's a proven
    starter.
    	    Davie.

 Ron Moore was the starter I believe......

    IMO, Buddy is saying that to get Hearst ready for training camp and
    out of rehab quicker.  You can't believe evrything Buddy says.
    
    boC

re: Hearst

I've seen several reports that claim the Cards are shopping him around.
Maybe buddy thinks he shoulda played hurt lasted year or something. Moore
is definitely Ryanesque, too.

TTom

    The rumored offer was Hearst for Keith Jackson since the Cards need a
    decent TE.  I don't think they should give up on him until they give
    him a legitimate chance.
    
    I gotta kick out of Ryan's comparison of Eric Swann and Reggie White
    the other day.  He said both are physical punishers and very similar
    playing styles.  The differences is that "Reggie will pray for you and
    Eric will just plain kick your ass."

    Gary Clark has taken a pay cut to stay employed.  They are trying to
    sign Jim McMahon (in honor of Hawk) now.

    Chuck Cecil and John Booty were just waived.

>    Chuck Cecil and John Booty were just waived.
                     ^^^^^^^^^^

Walt, you out there?

Are you going to take this one?



'Saw

    It's John "Big" Boot�...
    

    
    Cards are talking to Wilbur MArshall.  He's said he'd like to play for
    Butty, and willing to take a paycut to do it (but is he willing to take
    as big a cut as the Cards need him to?).
    
    boC

    Cards dealt LB Tyrone Stowe to the 'skins a couple weeks ago.  It may
    be a move in an attempt to sign Wilbur Marshall, one of Buddy's faves.
    
    boC

    Jamir Miller hasn't signed yet either, if he's smart he won't jerk
    Buddy around.
    
    Speaking of which, I ran into an old friend this weekend.  He's gonna
    be tending bar at Buddy's new sports bar next to Majerle's.

    
    Cards let go of Fatboy yesterday.  They're pretty thin on the dl, now.
    
    boC 

re: .538

Roooollllward!

    Cards kicked 49ers butt all over the field on Friday.  Wonder if brews
    or 49er Frank will show up here.  Defense looked good, and the offense
    moved the ball in the air, but not on the ground.  Simmons and Joyner
    both looked VERY good. 
    
    Cards have not yet signed their two top picks, JAmir Miller and Chuck
    Levy.  Miller is making noises about going to Canada.  If he does, with
    Hearst out for a while and in Butty's doghouse, Tony Sucka out of
    football, and the Randall Hill waste of a deal with Miami the Cards
    have wasted a bunch of LOW first round picks in recent years (Swan
    being the exception).  It's amazing they have a decent team (thank you
    mediocrity in the NFL).  
    
    Andre Waters signed with the team.  That brews guy called him Andre
    dirty Waters, so I ain't too happy about the pick up.  He knows his
    football.    
    
    boC

    re-.1
    
    Hey, Repeat three times after me:
    
    IT'S PRESEASON, IT'S PRESEASON, IT'S PRESEASON!!!
    
    And it don't mean squat.
    
    JaKe
    
    

      Oh, I thought I saw the Eagles out there.  HaHa
    
    

    It's preseason, but unlike past Cardinal teams, this one obviously has 
    a whole different attitude.  I also found it interesting how fast SF
    got Steve Young out of there since they don't have a backup QB.  The
    Cards D was getting after him pretty good.  The score was 14-0 after
    the half that had starters from both sides in there.
    
    Buddy said Jamir Miller should go ice fishing in Canada.  He'll
    probably grab Wilber Marshall to replace him.  Buddy's also playing the
    head game with Garrison Hearst to see what motivates him.  Ryan said,
    "He'll probably be on the PUP list all season.  I watched film of him
    when I got here.  I told you the guy can't play."
    
    Mike

    
    Cards and Miller may be moving closer.  Regardless of whether they sign
    Miller, look for Wilbur Marshall to sign with the Cards next week.
    
    boC

    Brews, what have you heard to make you think Miller is moving closer? 
    I think they should sign Marshall anyway since he already knows the 46.
    Let Miller learn behind him.
    
    Funny thing about Miller looking to the CFL...  They say they also have
    a salary cap.  Each team is allowed to sign 1 blue-chip player outside
    the cap and pay him as much as they want.  Doug Flutie is an example of
    this.  The rest of the team under the cap averages around $60K/year. 
    Sounds like Miller is wasting his time looking to the CFL since every
    team already has a blue-chip player outside the cap.
    
    Overall, Miller & his agent is pretty sorry to be haggling over $50K.
    
    Mike

    brews doesn't usually note in here, maybe I can help 8^)
    
    Miller's agent brought a new offer to the Cards.  Ackles said they
    haven't a deal yet.  Miller's pissed that they are making less than the
    picks drafted after him, but with Levy now in camp, maybe things will
    change.
    
    boC

    If this doesn't exactly illustrate my point about the unfairness of
    current drafting and the vacuum open to ncaa or someone to take
    advantage of it...

    I heard about the "slotting" and what the picks after him were signed
    to, but they offered Miller $5.5M for 5 years.  There can't be much a
    difference between that and what the #9 and #11 got.
    
    Mike

    
    Miller and Marshall will both sign this p.m.  Am I a genius, or what?
    
    boC 

    Way to stick to those KGME reports, Brews!

    BTW - a very good Cards' D, but without any depth, just got a lot
    better *AND* deeper.

   > Way to stick to those KGME reports, Brews!
    
    Brews wasn't the one to break the story.  I broke it yesterday, and you
    knew nothing about it then.  Now you act like you knew it all along. 
    Better be straighten up or I'll blow your cover on your Bidenesque
    reports.
    
    boC  
     

    You said they *should* sign both.  It was all over the news by 4pm
    yesterday afternoon.

    go look at .544
    
    boC

    Yeah so?  They've been talking about signing Marshall for the past
    month and you were in doubt about Miller.

 I guess you put this in by accident, yesterday, then:
    
 >               <<< Note 132.545 by FRETZ::HEISER "Maranatha!" >>>   
 >   Brews, what have you heard to make you think Miller is moving closer?   
    
    brews

    you claimed that you predicted he would be signed.  
    "moving closer" <> "signed"

    Cardinals get shut out over the weekend by the lowly Chicago Bears.
    This game must've put even the most die-hard fans to sleep.
    
    Where's the World Cup when you need it?
    
    NAZZ

    I'd sure hate to being doing double sessions with them this week.

    Whatever they did didn't make any difference. 
    
    
    

    I thought you just said the preseason doesn't matter?
    
    Ooops, I forgot, being a Cowgirls feign you aren't accustomed to
    sticking to anything you say.
    
    boC

    Team members admitted that they didn't prepare much for the Lions and
    are concentrating on the season-opener.  With the Cards being
    undefeated in preseason over the past few years, this may be a welcome
    sign.

      			It doesn't matter, its preseason. It also doesn't
    matter what Buddy does during his workouts which is what I was referring
    to.
    
    You know and I know that the Cards will disappoint their fans as
    usual. How many years have we heard that the Cards were supposed to be
    ready to kick some butt in the NFC East and every year they disappoint. 
    

    
  >> You know and I know that the Cards will disappoint their fans as
  >> usual. 
    
     All eight of them.
    

  >  How many years have we heard that the Cards were supposed to be   
  >  ready to kick some butt in the NFC East 
    
    Uh, are you talking about since the seventies?  That number is equal to
    the average Cowboys fan's IQ minus their shoe size.  THat's zero for
    the mathematically challenged.  This is the first year in a while they
    are even expected to have better than a .500 record.  
    
    In Friday's game, the defense started looking better about halfway
    through the 2nd quarter.  Both teams still had their starters in at the
    time.  It seemed like in Philly and in Houston, it took a while for the
    defenses to pick up the 46, and the Cards are still grappling with it. 
    Withh all of Buddy's recruits, it'll take a bit, but the learning curve
    should still be shorter.
    
    boC 

   Yo brew's   How many NFL Championships games  have the Cardinals played?


 Cadzilla2

    
    brews doen't go into this note, but I'll answer it for him.
    
    More than the Cowboys.
    
    boC

    >     All eight of them.
    
    in their defense, they doubled their season ticket base this summer (as
    did the Pats).  

re 567  List the years!

    They won it all once in the 40's or 50's.  Cowboys never played in the NFL
    Championship.
    
    boC
    
    PS sorta proves my Cowboys fan IQ-shoe size theory, huh?

	Can you say Ice Bowl for a start 1966/67 Green Bay-Dallas

  SB's. 5, 6, 10, 12 ,13, 27, and 28

 Cadzilla2

  PS Stick that theory in your horno and smoke it

    
    That's one NFL Championship, vs. a few for the Cards.  (they lost 2-3
    in the 30's).  Theory is still intact, but what's a horno?  I figgered
    Cowgirl fans chew, anyway.
    
    boC

  >>  This is the first year in a while they are even expected to have better
  >>  than a .500 record.
    
      I can't believe you said that. Just go back a read your own note at
    the beginning of this topic where you predicted an undefeated season
    based on an undefeated preseason and 4 QB's. 

  >       I can't believe you said that. Just go back a read your own note
  >  at    the beginning of this topic where you predicted an undefeated
  >  season    based on an undefeated preseason and 4 QB's. 
    
    I thought it was pretty obvious that I was Haling around in a Heiser
    sort of way.  But then there is that Cowfirl fan IQ/shoe size thing
    that I forgot about when entering those notes.
    
    boC
    
PS for cowgirl fans only: expect me to do a similar thing this year-but I'll 
    only be kidding.