Conference hbahba::cam_sports

    
    > Predicted to win in
    > all in two years when they move into their new stadium.
      
    By whom (besides you, Hal?)?  Long way to go before that...
    
    glenn
                                            

Good report on Charles Nagy on the news last night.  He was back home
to see the recent UCONN game.

Sportscaster figures he might win 20 this year.....


'Saw

	re: winning it all in two years...

	Hal,

	Just for future reference, and I think you'll need it, the Crow Cafe
	is now note 50.

	Bill

    
    	The Indians were 2nd only to the World champs in wins durring the 
    second half of last season.  Things are looking up for the tribe!
    
    
    
    	Chief - WaHooooo!

    HAL,
    
    glad to see you're blind optimism extends past the Brown(spot)s(tm) and
    to the other losers in Clevescum.
    
    The Indiand win it all in two years, yeah right, and I'm Mork and
    you're Mindy.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    
    You wish Jake!
    
    
    	WaHoooo!
    

    I think a lot of people would like to see the Indians do well.  It'd be
    fun to see what Cleveland Stadium would be like with 60,000 to 70,000
    crazy people for baseball.  After all it's been years, nay decades
    since they've fielded a contending team.  While they have several fine
    young players who may form the nucleus of a decent team, it remains to
    be seen if 1) they stay together long enough to have that chance 2)
    these players do eventually develop.
    
    Right now their biggest question mark has to be the pitching staff. 
    They aren't going anywhere in the next two years with this group.
    
    
    Spud

>    I think a lot of people would like to see the Indians do well.  It'd be
>    fun to see what Cleveland Stadium would be like with 60,000 to 70,000
>    crazy people for baseball.  

See the movie "Major League"   8^)


>    Right now their biggest question mark has to be the pitching staff. 
>    They aren't going anywhere in the next two years with this group.

Well, Nagy is good.  
    
    
And he's from UCONN too!


8^)

'Saw

Steve Olin, Tim Crews and Bob Ojeda were involved in a boating 
accident yesterday. Olin died instantly. Crews reportedly died 
this morning. Ojeda is listed in critical condition. The boat 
they were in slammed into a dock which extended out into the 
lake.

daryll

Just got off the phone with a friend in FLA...

He's staying with his uncle in Port Charlotte. He manages the 
condo complex that the Rangers stay at. He's close friends with 
John Barfield. Barfield is with the Indians this year. 

Barfield says that they hit the dock at full speed, CHEST high. 
There were no lights on the dock, so they never saw it coming. 

daryll

Oh, and all the Rangers think Canseco is a stuck up jerk....

dd

    huh?

.14 was a continuation of .13

The Crazy Met

    Olin had twin boys last August, and a three year old girl...
    
    Really sad.  
    
    Nobody said it has to be "fair"...
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

    
    	This is a devistating blow to the Tribe.  A questionable staff
    at best is now placed in a dark hole and no one knows what kind of
    mental effect this will have on the rest of the club.  Hopefully 
    they will use this to bring this team closer together.  The Tribe
    was ready to turn the corner, and now, it seems that another road
    block has been placed in their way.  I hope they can pull together!
    
    
    .........

re: .18

Who cares about baseball at a time like this?

    	Any mention of alcohol? I didn't hear anything last night
    	about alcohol on ESPN.
    
    	Scott

>
>    	Any mention of alcohol? I didn't hear anything last night
>    	about alcohol on ESPN.
    
I haven't heard any, but hey, even if they had had a few beers, I'd
think that something as long as that pier should have been lighted.
From what I heard it wasn't.

But again, I'm sure I don't have all the details.....

What a tragedy.....



'Saw

    	Definitely shoulda been lights. I was just wondering
    	if alcohol or drugs had added to the problem of seeing
    	the pier.
    
    	Scott

    They never should've left Tucson.

    Sounds like alcohol was involved.  The pier should have been lit,
    obviously.  Sounds like it was around dusk.  

    
    	Heard a few different things last night.....true, they did find 6
    full beer cans, 1 empty beer can and 1 nearly full bottle of Vodca.
    This does not substantiate saying that alcohol was involved nor does
    it convict these players of being drunk.  Also last night, it was said
    that this pier was just extended resently.  The pier was only 198 ft
    long instead of the reported 250 ft long.  
    	Other reports are that Tim Crews drove the boat at full power into
    the dock...why, they say that the throtle was wide open....now, here I
    say that the inpact could have caused the throtle to go forward...No
    conclusive evidence here.  Now, this is the biggie, the word is that
    the boat took out two pylons and landed 100 ft further down the lake.
    Well, if the throttle got stuck in the forward direction...it would 
    seem likely that the boat would continue on it way...  Nothing
    conclusive here either.
    	Also saw on TV last night the Indians VP and Coach Hargrove.  Both
    were visibly shaken and said that the Tribe would take care of both
    players families as they should.  Sort of proud to be a Indians fan!
    Good guys!
    
    	Bottom line is that the Indians will take care of the surviors and
    be OK themselves.
    
    
    
    		:-(

>    	Heard a few different things last night.....true, they did find 6
>    full beer cans, 1 empty beer can and 1 nearly full bottle of Vodca.
>    This does not substantiate saying that alcohol was involved nor does
>    it convict these players of being drunk.  Also last night, it was said
>    that this pier was just extended resently.  The pier was only 198 ft
>    long instead of the reported 250 ft long.  

Heard this morning that one of them had a blood alcohol level of .17, but
they didn't say who.


>    	Other reports are that Tim Crews drove the boat at full power into
>    the dock...why, they say that the throtle was wide open....now, here I
>    say that the inpact could have caused the throtle to go forward...No
>    conclusive evidence here.  Now, this is the biggie, the word is that
>    the boat took out two pylons and landed 100 ft further down the lake.
>    Well, if the throttle got stuck in the forward direction...it would 
>    seem likely that the boat would continue on it way...  Nothing
>    conclusive here either.

From being on a rescue squad for a couple of years, one thing I learned
was that what you normally expect any type of vehicle to do in any
kind of accident is highly unpredictable.  That's why the folks who
unravel what happened get paid big bucks...


>    	Bottom line is that the Indians will take care of the surviors and
>    be OK themselves.
    
    
Still a tragedy of epic proportions.......


'Saw    

    
    	To update this file on the boat accident.....the accident has
    shocked baseball and brought up many bad memories for the Indians
    from years past.  This club has certainly gone through alot.  
    	Reports are that a club that was close already has gotten 
    lots closer.  This is a team with the right motivation can be a
    contender.
    	The team will do right by the families of the two dead.  This
    is a determined bunch.
    	Ojeda was released from the hospital Thursday and the Cleveland
    Plain Dealer reported that no alcohol was found in his blood.  Ojeda
    was sitting in the back of the boat as it hit the dock which explains
    why he only received head injuries (sort of a scalp job).  He stated
    that before hitting the dock, he did not see it and also said that
    he could not remember anything afterward.  Blood tests from Olin and 
    Crews have yet to be released.
    	Its been reported that the three were heading across the lake to
    pick up a friend.
    	The Indians have played 2 games since the accident and came away
    with a 2-2 tie in 11 innings and a 6-5 win yesterday.  The clubhouse
    is still very quiet but things are getting back to normal thanks to 
    practices.
    	No word on if the team will try and pickup more piching help.
    	It will be interesting to see what the team and league will do to
    recignize this fatal accident.  The Tribe has already said that they
    will wear arm bands and place a plaqe in the bullpens.  To designate
    the season to the pitchers is probibly another thing that will be done.
    I can also see the league do something in memory of the two fallen
    pitchers on opening day across the league.
    	Most people I talk to want to see the Tribe come out of this and
    rip the league apart.  What a movie this will make someday.  The
    whole senario reminds me of "Major League" already.  What a great
    mixture of players on this team.  All the ups and downs from Joey Belle
    to Wicklander to Olin, Crews and Ojeda.  Can't wait to see Ojeda back
    on the field!
    
    
    
    	Go Tribe!
    		We're all with you!
    
    		May your pitches sizzel and your bats thunder!
    

    
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Very poor taste Jake... A new low for you...
    
    REK

    Thanks.
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

    
    .28 and .30 don't surprise me.
    
    Jake, you'd be singin' a different tune if people were cracking Mario
    cancer jokes.  Like REK said, a new low for even you.
    
    :^(
    
    Mark.

    
    >>Jake, you'd be singin' a different tune if people were cracking Mario
    >>cancer jokes.  Like REK said, a new low for even you.
    
    Wrongo, Oh Marky-Mark, wrongo.
    
    I think that anybody that knows me knows that I'm AWFUL thick
    skinned(and younzes all thought I was fat  (8^)*) and cain take a joke
    about as good as any.  If I would have heard Mario jokes, I woulda been
    the one to put them in here, regardless of the situation he's in.
    Maybe it is tasteless, or for that matter, the word maybe doesn't
    apply, it is tasteless, but, it's a dirty job, and somebody's got to do
    it.
    
    The problem with the world today is ALMOST EVERYBODY has some little
    ship on there shoulder, very precariously balanced, just waiting fer
    the lightest tap to knock it off.  What happened to being able to laugh
    at a situation to remove some of the hurt and help lighten the mood????
    
    JaKe
    

    Nobody was ever called to uphold tasteless "jokes."

    Hence the name, Evin RUDE!!!!
    
    JaKe
    

    Hey Jake I share your feelings, I came up with a joke about the
    situation the day after it happened. Some people thought it was funny
    and others were horrified. I will not put it in here, but for all those
    people who thought my joke was tasteless, my reply was the same as
    yours was- Somebody had to do it.
    p.s. anybody that wants to here my joke send me mail offline.
    WMOIS::FASSETT_E

    What's Evinrude....is that the brand name of the vodka or something????
    
    As far as a new low goes...I tend to dis-agree...it's just more of the
    same stuff we've come to expect from JaKe...ala the Iraq thing, the
    Jeffrey Dahmer thing, etc...etc...and I don't think it's meant to cause
    pain as much as making light of a rough situation....also it kinda
    lends itself to that electronic tavern atmosphere we all love so
    much...just wouldn't be the same without Jakey's jokes! (however poor
    in taste they might be)   :-)
    
    Carlitos
    

    Sorry, Carlos, that doesn't cut it.
    
    It's more like the type of humor you'd expect out of an giggling,
    pimpled-face 8th grader.  
    
    Mark.

    Hey Bill, instead of telling others to get a sense of humor why don't
    jake and you try and get one. Some comments are not funny or called
    for. This was one of them.
    
    REK

	Besides, JaKe dun gradjeated da eighth grade.


	billl

    >><<< Note 63.39 by FDCV07::KING "OH NO!!!! I'm a bubba!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" >>>

    >>Hey Bill, instead of telling others to get a sense of humor why don't
    >>jake and you try and get one. 
    
      Personally, I cain find the humor in just about any situation that's
    thrown my way.  I don't dwell on the morbidity of the situation and
    treat EVERY FREAKIN' THING AS HANDS OFF.  Too many people do.  Too many
    people have forgotten how to laugh.  That's why the world's going to
    hell in a handbasket, and of all the shortages we have, we have no
    shortage of handbasket to go to hell in.
    
    
    >>					Some comments are not funny or called
    >>for. This was one of them.
    
    Purely YOUR opinion.  What's funny to some, ain't funny to others. 
    Plus, we know ALL about "opinions".
    
    
    Leaving all the judgemental BS behind, on wif the subject of the
    Cleveland Indians.
    
    I read this morning where the people investigating the accident called
    a press conference fer sometime today to announce the results of their
    investigation, anybody heard what they said?????
    
    JaKe
    

    
    >>	Besides, JaKe dun gradjeated da eighth grade.
    
    Pssssssssssssst, Bill, don't tell anybody that eight grade was the best
    four years of my life, though.
    
    JaKe
    

    -1, JaKe
    Ah, was that when they voted you most likely to recede(hairline dat
    is)?
    
    8^),
    MikeL
    

    Why would you care about the results Jake, running out of
    things to make jokes out of? Maybe you should sent a joke card to
    Olin's and Crew's families.. 
    
    REK

    MikeL,
                                             
    Nah, that was on the third pass thru 11th grade.
    
    JaKe
    

    The news just said one of them (forget which) was intoxicated.

    
    >>Why would you care about the results Jake, running out of
    >>things to make jokes out of?
    
    Do me, REK!!
    
    As stated, I didn't make the damned thing up.  Secondly, I thought it
    was sick when I heard it, but ALSO funny.  I cain see yer bitchin if I
    was trying to intentionally hurt someone thru the joke, but it was just
    a freakin' joke, not a message to any one person with any intent to
    hurt them.  I cain take a joke, and give it out.  Live a little, why
    not laugh at something sometime off the straight and narrow.  
    
    JaKe
    
    

    It was Crews..... He was over the legal limit for Florida....
    
    
    REK

    Jake, KMA You thought it was funny and sick? apparently you
    have never lost anyone to DWI.......
    
    REK

And Crews was the one piloting the boat. sigh you would think
people would learn that consuming liquor and driving,etc just
don't mix.

The Crazy Met

    yeah Crews was the one, and I agree TCM (there ya go again!).

    
    >><<< Note 63.49 by FDCV07::KING "OH NO!!!! I'm a bubba!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" >>>

    >>Jake, KMA You thought it was funny and sick? apparently you
    >>have never lost anyone to DWI.......
    
    REK, KYOA, yes I thought it was sick, while still being funny.  DWI was
    no part whatsoever of the joke at the time it was put in, either.  The
    DWI part was just announced today, right???????????????
    
    To say now that I'm making fun of DWI is utter bull$hit.  Get a freakin
    life and take it fer what it was, a joke.  Not an attack on anyone or
    thing.  What's next, if I put in a joke about an animal do I get nailed
    from the "Animal Friends" side, or if I put a joke in about an oil
    spill, do I get nailed from the Greenpeace side??????

    Lose the damned chip, OK??
    
    JaKe
    
    Pure and simple

Hey, if youse guys think Jake is rude, you should meet Dick Raditz.  As the 
evening roled on, he got even more rude.

oh goodie a brawl in the tavern; haven't seen one of those in a while.

The Crazy Met

    Crews' blood-alcohol was .14%, Olins was .02(or thereabouts) and
    Ojeda's was .006.  The limit fer driving a car, or a boat in Fla is
    .10%.
    
    JaKe
    

    We've got one guy in here who just lost a son in an accident and I'm
    sure there are others who have lost children (myself included) of their
    own.  I'm sure there are a whole lot of us that have known someone
    who's died as a result of someone driving drunk.  And we've got a couple 
    of f'in p-brains who get woodies making jokes of tragic accidents. 
    
    Now you tell ME who should go get a life.
    
    					Steve

    Thanks Steve, you said what I was feeling...
    
    REK

Okay, folks.

I think we've just about beat this horse to death.   Let's just let
it suffice that some of you feel one way, some of you feel another way,
and that we're all different in the way we deal with things.

Okay?  Okay.


Get the hint?

Good.


'Saw

    Thanks Saw...
    
    If you want to make this a DWI discussion, move it to another note.
    If it's still an Indians discussion, fine.
    
    As much as I feel for the Indians, it seems to me I can only feel so
    bad for Olin and Ojeda if the person the most wasted of the 3 is the
    one doing the driving.  I don't care if it's his lake and boat.  Anyone
    who lets a guy that tanked get behind the wheel takes his/her own
    chances.  
    
    I don't think a joke card is in order, and it's a tragic case, but it
    seems to me that they had the opportunity to prevent this from
    happening to some degree.
    

    re.59,
    
    Waht are you REALLY trying to say, Saw???
    
    JaKe
    

    FWIW, .1% is the legal limit for most states, not just Florida.

>    FWIW, .1% is the legal limit for most states, not just Florida.


In addition, a lot of states are putting in a .07% limit, where you can
be charged for something like driving impaired, which is less serious
than DWI.

Bottom line, it's getting to the point where if you have a couple of
beers, it's best not to drive....


'Saw

    
    	Albert Bell hit the National League Leading 15th home run the other
    day....on the down side...he is protesting a 3 day suspension for going
    after the pitcher after he was hit.  Didn't see this so....your guess
    is as good as mine.
    
    	Tommy Kramer pitched a one hitter the other day also....the one
    hit came in the 4th and it was a home run.  This is only Tommy's 2nd
    start of his carrier.
    
    
    
    	WaHooooo!

�    	Albert Bell hit the National League Leading 15th home run the other
�    day...
    
    Did Bell leave the Indians or have the Tribe joined the Senior Circuit?

    
    	Funny.....sorry...its Albert Belle
    
    	And he did it again....Albert Belle collected his 43rd League
    leading RBI yesterday.....as the Tribe beat Texas.....part in thanks
    to mr. Canseco who used his head to put the tribe on top.  From what
    I read...Carlos Bierga hit a fly ball to center...it hit Canseco on
    the head and bounced over the fence for a hommer.....
    
    
    
    	WaHOOOOOOOOOO!
    

    
    Re .67
    
    Wrong Carlos (it was Martinez).
    
    BTW - You have to see it.  Has to be the funniest baseball play I've
    ever seen.
    
    Joe

    
    	Albert Belle got his major league leading 16th, 17th and 18th
    home run over the last couple of games against the New York Yankees.
    He also collected his major league leading 48th RBI yesterday.
    	The Indians have made resent trades to obtain some pitching.
    One starter and one reliever.  Matt Young still hasn't won a game.
    Seems to only be able to go 4 or 5 innings before getting into
    trouble.
    
    
    	WAAHOOOOO!
    
    

    
    	The suspension of Albert Belle was upheld yesterday.  He will miss
    3 games, starting Today.  
    
    	A mistake was made in the reporting of RBI's for Albert yesterday.
    After Wednesday's game, Belle actually has a major league leading 51
    RBI's instead of the reported 48...
    
    	Too bad he is suspended right now with him hitting the ball so well
    lately.
    
    	
    	WaHoooooo!

    
    	Wanted to stay out of here the last few week because I didn't want
    to jinks the team.  The Indians have been playing some good ball lately
    and after a 9 game winning streak, are only 9 games off the pace.  Good
    pitching and great hitting has been the key.  
    	Albert Belle hit two home runs in the late game yesterday to bring 
    his total up to 22 which ties him for the lead in the Americal League.
    	Kenny Loften got hit in the head after a bunt as the pitcher makes
    the throw to first base.  He shook off the hit.
    	Lots of talk about the Indians and their logo lately.  Now some
    group will try to block the building of the new stadium because of it.
    Team officials say they will stay with the Chief as their logo when
    they move next year.  I read that they are looking for someone to take
    the huge Chief Wahoo sign at the ballpark because they do not plan on
    moving it to the new park.  The baseball hall of fame said that it was
    just too big for them to take.  I hope they don't change the logo.  I
    honestly don't think it is a logo that demishes Indians at all.  In
    fact I don't understand why the Indians don't support the Team in a
    more positive way.  Man, if they were to come up with a team called
    the Hungarians or Hunks, I'd support them.  :-)
    
    	At any rate, with all the pitching problems in Cleveland, they are
    still finding ways to win.  Think about it, Nagy is out for the season
    and practically all the starters that were on the team at the beginning
    of the season are now on the disabled list.  I look for this team to
    play well after the all-star break and surprise many people.  
    
    	Strange how this season has gone so far...lots of streaks...good
    ones and bad ones.
    
    
    	The Chief
    

Not including yesterday's results, the Indians and Red Sox are the two
hottest teams in the AL East.  Both were at 5-2 in their last 7 games.


'Saw

    
    	Not including the Indians last two losses, the Tribe actually
    gained 1 game on the Red Sox.  So, with the Sox winning the last
    12 of 13, the Indians only lost 1.5 games in the standings against
    them.
    
    	
    	The Chief

    
    > In fact I don't understand why the Indians don't support the Team in a
    > more positive way.  Man, if they were to come up with a team called
    > the Hungarians or Hunks, I'd support them.  :-)                  
    
    Yeah, it must be those damn *real* Indians that have made the Cleveland
    bunch stink for so long.  And I'm still blaming the Red Sox' misfortunes
    over the years on the Pilgrims...
    
    glenn
     

    
    I've got a great idea for the Cleveland Hungarians new logo.  We could
    get this gypsy, sorta a Zsa-Zsa look alike with the bandana over the
    head, big earrings, and ripped up clothes, etc. have her hand in
    someone elses pocket, like she's stealing, and in the background have
    six or seven kidsa that are obviously kidnapped.  I don't think the
    Hungarians would mind, they'd have to support the team.
    
    brews

Brews -

Yeah!  Great logo.  If the hungarians did mind, I'm sure another ethnic
stereotype would love to become the symbol of Cleveland's baseball team.

Perhaps a Stephan Fetchit character, or a negro holding a lantern and
call them the Cleveland Negroes.  They'd love it!

JD

    If you wish to replace Chief Wahoo with a Hungarian why not that 90s
    corporate hero 
    
    		Attila the Hun(garian)

>
>    If you wish to replace Chief Wahoo with a Hungarian why not that 90s
>    corporate hero 
>    
>    		Attila the Hun(garian)


Oh, if only Hawk were still around.......

    Just heard the news on the radio coming back to the office..
    
    Indians' pitcher Cliff Young was killed in a car accident last night
    in his hometown in Texas. No other details.
    
    Tragedy continues for the Tribe.
    
    MikeL
    

    
    	Well, the Indians continue to make moves.  They pick up Tony Pena
    for a minor league contract.  He may be in as a backup.  
    
    	So, who is in the Indians division this year.  Do the Indians have
    a real chance at winning something here???  Looks like the Tribe has
    made some moves and picked up some new pitchers.  I don't remember if
    they signed the one pitcher with the scalp or not...don't think they
    did.  Will they???  I would think they want to get that memory out of
    the clubhouse.
    
    
    	WaHooooooo!
    

    
  >  Well, the Indians continue to make moves.  They pick up Tony Pena
  >  for a minor league contract.  He may be in as a backup.  
    
    I hope not... he'd be about my third choice among the players the
    Indians actually have signed, and about my 79th pick among the
    catchers who could be had cheaply...
    
  >  So, who is in the Indians division this year.
    
    Assuming the 3-division system goes through, Chicago, Minnesota,
    Milwaukee, and Kansas City.
    
  >  Do the Indians have a real chance at winning something here???
    
    Sure.  They are significantly better than MIN, MIL, and KC.  They
    are likely not to be as good as Chicago.  Any of the following
    could be enough to give the Indians a shot; enough of them, and
    the Indians should win the division...
    
    1) Two of the high level pitching prospects (Ogea, Lopez, Tavarez,
       Carter, Embree, Mlicki, Byrd) have significant major league
       success.
    
    2) Mark Clark pitches as well as he did at the end of 1993, Nagy
       pitches as well as he did in 1992, and Martinez pitches at near
       his peak levels.
    
    3) Jose Mesa heads off into the sunset in March.
    
    4) Frank Thomas misses significant time in 1994.
    
    5) Michael Jordan starts the year in RF for the Sox.
    
    6) Manny Ramirez starts the year in RF for the Tribe.
    
  >  Looks like the Tribe has made some moves and picked up some new
  >  pitchers.  I don't remember if they signed the one pitcher with
  >  the scalp or not...don't think they did.  Will they???  I would
  >  think they want to get that memory out of the clubhouse.
    
    They signed Martinez; he at least has been a good pitcher, whether
    or not he's got anything left.  I assume you're talking about
    Ojeda, here; he was signed to a minor league deal elsewhere (NYY?).
    
    1994 should be a good season for the Tribe.  Their offense should
    be better than in 1993, particularly when Ramirez makes the team;
    the defense should be better, too, even with Ramirez in the OF.
    The starting pitching should be better; hopefully, the youngsters
    will be ready to fill the existing holes.  If the relief pitching
    doesn't come apart, the Tribe should be well-poised for ~84 wins.
    
    Joe

    The 3 division /new playoff format did go through a couple
    of weeks ago when the players and owners agreed on how to 
    split the gate from the extra round of playoffs.
    
    Mike

>    Sure.  They are significantly better than MIN, MIL, and KC.  They
>    are likely not to be as good as Chicago.  Any of the following
>    could be enough to give the Indians a shot; enough of them, and
>    the Indians should win the division...
    
    Good list, Joe.  One additional thing that concerns me a bit with the
    Indians this year is the fact that the Big 3 of Baerga, Belle, and
    Lofton all pretty much had monster years (especially Belle) and the team
    still won only 76 games.  I don't know if these three cumulatively can
    be counted on to be so productive this year (I think Baerga can be even
    better; not sure about the other two).  That leaves Ramirez, Thome,
    Murray, etc. to take up some slack.  Obviously the pitching is the
    longterm need...
    
    glenn
    

correct, Ojeda was signed by the Yankees.

How many people does the new stadium seat?

The Crazy Met

    
    	from what I remember...the new Cleveland Statium will seat
    somewhere around 35-40 grand.  
    
    	I figured about the same as Joe...Chicago was going to be the one
    to beat to get to the next level.......hmmmmmmm, seems like I heard
    this before.......
    
    
    	WaHoooooooo!
    
    		Go Tribe!

    
    Re .83
    
>    One additional thing that concerns me a bit with the
>    Indians this year is the fact that the Big 3 of Baerga, Belle, and
>    Lofton all pretty much had monster years (especially Belle) and the team
>    still won only 76 games.  I don't know if these three cumulatively can
>    be counted on to be so productive this year (I think Baerga can be even
>    better; not sure about the other two).
    
    I don't see any good reason to expect _less_ from the three
    cumulatively; Baerga will be 25 this year, Lofton 26, and Belle 27.
    While all three had their best seasons to date last year, none was
    really out of range;  Lofton's was the biggest jump, but with his
    background, he's an unusual case.  Baerga's been constantly improving
    for about 6 years now, and Belle's 1993 wasn't out of line with his
    1991.
    
>    That leaves Ramirez, Thome, Murray, etc. to take up some slack.
    
    True; OTOH, they are _much_ better than the players they are
    replacing.  Vizquel/Fermin is a wash offensively; any additional
    at bats from Alomar will improve the offense output from the
    catchers.  If Hargrove plays his cards right (platooning Vizquel
    and Espinoza, starting Ramirez in Cleveland, pushing Alomar to
    keep true to his statement that he'll try to be more selective
    at the plate, and so on), the Tribe should be able to improve on last
    year's 790 runs scored; I personally wouldn't be too surprised if
    Cleveland is near the league lead in runs scored this year.
    
>    Obviously the pitching is the longterm need...
    
    Seen the latest Baseball America?  The Tribe has continued to
    develop a _lot_ of pitching prospects.  The big four from last
    year are still around; Ogea's the only one still on track, though
    Embree could always come back.  In their place, though, are Lopez,
    and Tavarez, and Carter, and Kirkreit, and Whitten.  I know I'm
    happy with the development so far, even if it hasn't paid off yet.
    I would like to see more position prospects somewhere in the
    system, though...
    
    Joe

    I'm glad to see Cleveland finally moving in the right direction.  They
    have several good young players and the potential is definately there. 
    But until that pitching comes around, I have to disagree that their
    chances are "significantly" better than a Minnesota, Milwaukee or KC. 
    It's Chicago's division to lose right now.
    
    
    Spud

    
>    But until that pitching comes around, I have to disagree that their
>    chances are "significantly" better than a Minnesota, Milwaukee or KC. 
>    It's Chicago's division to lose right now.
    
    I'd have to agree.  I think that Joe is right if you're predicting what
    will happen over the next five years, but right at this moment
    Cleveland is in that pack and not indisputably above it...
    
    glenn
    

       
    Re .87, .88
    
>    I'd have to agree.  I think that Joe is right if you're predicting what
>    will happen over the next five years, but right at this moment
>    Cleveland is in that pack and not indisputably above it...
    
    I'd have to disagree.  Cleveland's clearly superior to Minnesota;
    Cleveland scored 100 more runs while allowing fewer _last_ year, and
    should be better this year.  Milwaukee's closer, with only 50 fewer
    runs scored and a slightly better ERA, but for Milwaukee's an older
    team - Vaughn's 28, Surhoff and Hamilton are 29, and Yount's in his
    late thirties.  There are some players who might improve - Nilsson,
    Jaha, and Listach should be better in 1994 - but the pitching staff
    is no better off and one year older.  Given that Cleveland should
    show marked improvement, they should have no problem staying ahead of
    Milwaukee.  Kansas City was the closest to equal with the Tribe in
    1994 - 115 fewer runs scored, ~80 more earned runs allowed, plus
    some number of unearned runs.  But Kansas City is the most likely
    to fall apart.  Jose should be better, but Brett's gone, McRae
    overperformed in 1993, and the rest of the team is getting along
    in years.  Lind & Macfarlane are 29, Joyner is 31, Gagne and Coleman
    are 32, and Gaetti is 35.
    
    Sure, one of these teams _could_ be better than Cleveland in 1994.
    And yes, Cleveland's chance in 2-or-3 years are better than next
    year.  But Cleveland is (IMHO) clearly above Minnesota, Milwaukee, and
    KC heading into 1994.
    
    Joe

>>    I'd have to agree.  I think that Joe is right if you're predicting what
>>    will happen over the next five years, but right at this moment
>>    Cleveland is in that pack and not indisputably above it...
>    
>    I'd have to disagree.  Cleveland's clearly superior to Minnesota;
>    Cleveland scored 100 more runs while allowing fewer _last_ year, and
>    should be better this year.  Milwaukee's closer, with only 50 fewer
    
    The analysis is generally sound, Joe, but perhaps as with Spud, I only
    object to the terms like "significantly better" and "clearly superior",
    etc.  We're talking about a group of teams all of which won around 70-75
    games last season, except for KC, which played over its head a bit and 
    won 84.  In Minnesota, you're talking about a team that was World
    Champion in 1991, won 90 games in 1992, and then suffered a train-wreck
    disaster of a season in 1993.  They are on the decline (probably not
    for long), but there's a basis for believing that they're not near as
    bad as they looked last season.  Cleveland has hopes, too, but it still 
    comes down to that shaky pitching staff, where there's a question mark
    next to each and every starter's name (including Martinez, based on his 
    second half).  It could be good enough to win at least a wild card, it 
    could be terrible and result in a 3rd or 4th place finish.  
    
    glenn
    

    They're in the right direction?  They signed Tony Pena and Jack
    Morris...

    
    	The Tribe signs.......
    
    
    			J A C K   M O R R I S 
    
    
    			to a one year contract.
    
    
    		WaHooooooo!

    Wahoo is right, Hal.  Jack Morris was only *the* worst pitcher in the
    league last year, and the second place finisher wasn't close.  If the
    Indians give Morris 10-15 starts to "work it out" like the Jays did
    last year, I'd downgrade expectations accordingly...
    
    glenn
     

>>                      <<< Note 63.93 by NAC::G_WAUGAMAN >>>
>>     -< Jack Morris? Indians have filled their quota on aging stiffs >-


	How'd he get by the Red Soxs? Oh Yeah that's right they moved
        buffet table Lou upstairs. Otherwise, Jack would have been in
        finishing out his career in Fenway....

 mike

    
    Re .93
    
>    Wahoo is right, Hal.  Jack Morris was only *the* worst pitcher in the
>    league last year, and the second place finisher wasn't close.  If the
>    Indians give Morris 10-15 starts to "work it out" like the Jays did
>    last year, I'd downgrade expectations accordingly...
    
    But doesn't he make a lovely battery mate for Tony Pena?  B^)
    
    Fortunately, none of his contract is guarenteed.  The really sad
    thing about it is that Morris & Pena could have massive comebacks
    and still stink.
    
    On a less negative note, the Tribe signed Steve Farr.  Farr did
    have a poor year in '93, and is at an age where that could be a
    sign of things to come, but had pitched well for a number of
    years beforehand and came cheaply.  Signing Farr is much like
    signing Martinez or Murray - they probably won't really hurt the
    Tribe.  All I can hope is that Pena was signed to help Levis with
    his defense and Morris was signed to keep Martinez happy (he's
    complained about the lack of other signing) until Dennis actually
    _sees_ how good the kids are.  OK, I guess there's the possibility
    that he's learned to throw a monster knuckle ball and still has
    three years left in him... B^)
    
    Morris - a worse pitcher than Jose Mesa!
    Pena - a worse hitter than Jose Mesa!
    
    Re superiority
    
    Hey, I'm a fan of the Tribe - do you expect me to be completely
    objective?  B^)  (I do believe that the expectations for the Tribe
    should logically be much better than for the Twins/Brewers/Royals,
    but also might admit that my bias plays into that belief...)
    
    Joe

�    Assuming the 3-division system goes through, Chicago, Minnesota,
�    Milwaukee, and Kansas City.
    
    The 3 division system was a done deal a couple of months ago.
    
�    The starting pitching should be better; hopefully, the youngsters
�    will be ready to fill the existing holes.  
    
    One of those holes has been filled by old timer Jack Morris.

    
    
      Did the Indians GM sit to close to Lou Gorman during the winter
    Meetings? :*)

�	How'd he get by the Red Soxs? Oh Yeah that's right they moved
�        buffet table Lou upstairs. Otherwise, Jack would have been in
�        finishing out his career in Fenway....
    
    How soon they forget.  Lou passed on Morris before and signed Viola
    instead.  The Sox are looking for a 5th starter, but so far they seem
    to be looking within the organization at guys like VanEgmond and
    Quantrill.

                                  
>    How soon they forget.  Lou passed on Morris before and signed Viola
>    instead. 
    
    Uh, not quite Mac.  Lou had a very clearly stated preference for
    Morris, but the Blue Jays outbid the field.  Viola was signed after
    Morris, late in the signing period.  If Lou later claimed that he 
    somehow made the right choice while the Jays made the mistake then 
    it's just one more example of Lourevisionism at its finest...
    
    glenn
    

    Joe, it's great to see Indians fans sticking up for their team.  I
    think a lot of baseball fans wouldn't mind seeing them do well this
    year and you know once that pitching comes around they will be tough.
    As Glenn says, it could go either way for them this year.  I think the
    signing of Eddie Murray will help, but didn't they also pick up
    Martinez from Montreal?  If not, who was the pitcher they signed awhile
    back?  I also don't think much of picking up Morris and Pena, but
    you've got nothing to lose really.
    
    Hang with them, they should reward you down the road.
    
    Now for my train-wreck Twins...  :*)  Ahhh, that's another note, but
    hey, if the pitching comes around???
    
    
    Spud

    
    Re .100
    
    Spud,
    
>    Joe, it's great to see Indians fans sticking up for their team.  I
>    think a lot of baseball fans wouldn't mind seeing them do well this
>    year and you know once that pitching comes around they will be tough.
>    As Glenn says, it could go either way for them this year.
    
    That's what I don't agree with.  The Indians should be better
    everywhere but the bullpen; even that could be more productive this
    year if Steve Farr pitches like he did 2 years ago.  I don't
    believe they will necessarily be in contention this year - _that_
    will take some doing - but without anything out of the ordinary
    (such as an Aaron Sele-like preformance by one of the young pitchers)
    85 wins is IMHO a reasonable estimate.  If everything breaks right,
    they win 95 and the central.
    
>    I think the
>    signing of Eddie Murray will help, but didn't they also pick up
>    Martinez from Montreal?  If not, who was the pitcher they signed awhile
>    back?  I also don't think much of picking up Morris and Pena, but
>    you've got nothing to lose really.
    
    Yup, it was Martinez.  And w/ Morris & Pena, my only worry is that they
    will take away playing time from better, but "less proven" players.
    Hopefully they'll either flop in Spring training or come back
    
>    Hang with them, they should reward you down the road.
    
    Hey, I'm a Cleveland fan - I've never seen a championship in any sport
    during my lifetime, and only a couple of runner-up finishes (by the
    Force).  Think I'd give them up just because they don't improve
    fast enough?  B^)
    
>    Now for my train-wreck Twins...  :*)  Ahhh, that's another note, but
>    hey, if the pitching comes around???
    
    Actually, I like the Twins' chances better than Milwaukee or KC.
    
    Joe

    
    	Jack Morris pitched for the first time in an Indians uniform
    the other day.  The old man pitched two hitless innings and only
    threw 17 pitches.  The Tribe is now 4 - 2 in exibition.
    
    
    	WaHooooo!

    
    	I also predict that the CLEVELAND INDIANS will win the Central this
    	year.
    
    
    	Gotta see the movie.....MAJOR LEAGUE II
    
    	My only question is...when did MAJOR LEAGUE come out?  I was
    thinking that I came out the year Synider was on the cover of Sports
    Illustrated.  Does anyone know?
    
    
    	Wa HOOOOOOOOOOO!

�   thinking that I came out the year Synider was on the cover of Sports
 
Sid? 

Major League -- it came out after Sheen was in Platoon.  Platoon was 
in 1986, so I'd be ML came out in 1987 at least.  I don't believe it
came out before Platoon....


'Saw

    It was before Wesley Snipes became big...  I'd say ML was more like
    90 or so... Post LA Law (Bernsen)

 too bad Wesley now feels too big to do the Sequel. He's a great actor
 and will be sorely missed imo........

 mike

    
    	Looks like the Indians are ready to go.  Jack Morris is pitching 
    strong and the Tribe is getting the runs.  
    	Today, the Indians play the Reds in Columbus in the Annual Ohio Cup
    game.  I have no idea of the Annual record.  Anyone???
    
    	WaHooooooo!

    
    	Well, I had to see the movie "Major League II" yesterday.  Before 
    seeing it I went out and rented "Major League" again.  I won't say 
    much about this movie because I know all of you will be going down to
    see it.  I will say that if "Major League" was a 5 tear jerker and 2
    hankies, "Major League II" is a 3 tear jerker and 1 hanky.  My bet...
    there will be a "Major League III" comming soon...the Big one.
    
    	hw 

    
    
    	Yabbut Hal,
    
    Just a nit 'cause you probably forgot but in da ::Sportsbar, we
    describe moovies as "Cindy" movies.  Hankies are used to describe dat
    moovie star, Tom Hankies, son of Mr. and Ms. Kleenex!
    
    ;^)
    
    I remain,
    honking in hankies!
    Kev
    

    I saw the "Joy Luck Club" over the weekend.  

How's the new park?

I saw bits and pieces of it on the Sunday night ESPN telecast, and
it looks fascinating.

I'm really thrilled with this tendency to be building parks more like
the olds ones (ie Camden Yards and now Cleveland and Arlington)....


'saw

    
    	The Tribe has finally started the season on the right foot.  Now 
    	5-1 and going strong.  Good pitching from Clark, Martinez, Morris
    	and Naggy.  The rookie Danny R. is ripping the ball.  
    
    
    	Go Tribe!
    
    
    	WaHooooo!
    
    		The Chief...
    

    
    	The Tribe wins again and has the best record in the American
    League!  
    
    	Go Indians!
    
    		WaHooooo!
    
    			The Chief...

    Hey Hal,
    
    ya happen to see that there's still 150+ games left on the schedule????
    
    JaKe
    

    
    	Ya-but, when the tribes best record at the start of season since
    1966 was 10-9....you have to be just a little excited.
    
    	Wa Hoooo!
    		The Chief...

 but when was the last time you were just a little excited, Hal?

 mike

    
    	Well, it didn't last for long......the Indians lost three in a row,
    in Cleveland against the Royals over the weekend.  But, they are back
    on their winning ways winning last night 7-6 against Minn..
    	I really don't like how these games have gone since the start of
    the season.  Seems like they have been winning in the late innings and
    haven't been getting strong relief work from the bullpin.  
    	
    	Go Tribe!
    
    		WaHooooooo
    
    			The Chief...

    
    Re .118
    
>    	I really don't like how these games have gone since the start of
>    the season.  Seems like they have been winning in the late innings and
>    haven't been getting strong relief work from the bullpin.  
    
    The bullpen will be fine; or at least, Plunk, Lilliquist, and Farr
    (if he stays healthy) will be, and likely Turner as well.  Mesa still
    can't pitch, though.
    
    Actually, now that the season's underway, I like the Tribe's chances
    a bit more:
    
    1) Ramirez is the right fielder.
    2) Nagy is pitching well.
    3) Clark is pitching well.
    4) Most of the AAA staff is pitching well.
    5) Morris is pitching close to 1992 levels, which isn't good, but
       is potentially useful.
    
    OTOH:
    
    1) Vizquel is hitting second.
    2) Hargrove is using the sacrifice _far_ too much.
    
    On the balance, it looks like the Tribe should be able to stay in
    the race, which it wasn't clear they would manage going into the
    season.
    
    Joe

    
    	The Tribe has been haveing their trouble as of late but after
    	sweeping the Tigers they are only 1.5 games back of that other
    	Chicago team.
    
    	As mentioned in the Browns note, the Indians went on a big loosing
    	streak, someing like 1-7 on the road.  From what I
        read/heard/watched, most of the problem has been with the fielding
    	and pitching.  You can't win games when you give up 6 and 7 runs
    	a game.  Things seem to be comming around now though with the 
    	Indians scoring something like 26 runs in three games.  Also lets
    	give Jack Morris some credit, his last game, 9 K's in 6 innings.
    	Something like 16 K's for the game with this new guy getting 4 K's
    	in the 9th.  
    
    	Hopefully the Tribe can keep things together.  Again, as with the 
    	Browns, the Indians will have to win the division to make it to the
    	playoffs.  I just can't see them getting the wildcard spot this
    	year. 
    
    	The rookie Manny Ram...is kicking some but.  Look down the Leader
    	stats and all you see in Cleve, Cleve, Cleve.....
    
    	Average: Loften & Bell....something like 385.
    	Runs:  Loften over 50
    	Triples:  Bell tops in the league.
    	Doubles:  Bell and Bearga are right there.
    	HR's:  Bell and Rameriz (sp) at 10.
    	Stolen Bases:  Loften leads the league.
    	Pitching.....this is the problem!!!
    
    
    	Go Tribe!
    
    
    		WaHooooooo! 

    As for not being able to win by giving up six or seven runs, yes that's
    true over the long haul.  But the Twins have found a way, going 18-19
    so far with a league worst 6.71 ERA.
    
    
    Spud

	I just found out that the name of the baseball stadium in Cleveland
	is "Jacobs Field".

	JaKe, would you care to fill us in on your Cleveland lineage?



	billl

    Jake's ancestors used the sight for their outhouses.

    
    >>Jake's ancestors used the sight for their outhouses.
    
    How'd ya know that Mike????
    
    Actually, Clevescum's new park is "Jacobs" not"Jacob" like my lasted
    name.  It scared me in the beginning that some of my family might
    actually live there, but then I came to my senses and realized that we
    don't have any sh_t shovellers in our fambily.
    
    JaKe
    

    re: 124
    
    I just can't resist this one.
    
    Jake;
    
    No sh*t shovelers eh?
    
    Just sh*theads!
    
    I personally think that Jacobs field is a class ball park, looking
    forward to attending a Indians game there in August.
    
    jeff
    
    

    
    Re .125
    
    > Indians in "94" World Series!!!
    
    Now that's something I can see happening.  (OK, it will take a _lot_
    of things breaking the right way, but it's not out of the range of
    possibility.)
    
    Good luck to you Jeff; sorry to see a vocal Cleveland fan go even if
    I think you're deluding yourself w.r.t. the Browns.
    
    Joe

    
    Worth noting:
    
    1) If the baseball season ended today, the Indians would be in the
       playoffs.
    
    2) The Indians have the best home record in baseball.
    
    Joe

    If "If and But's" were "candy and nuts", what a fine Christmas we
    all would have...
    
    A favorite from second grade...
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

    
    Hey, for an Indians fan "Ifs" are a big step forward.  B^)
    
    Joe

Yabut if the pitching (read Jack Morris) holds up, I think the Indians have a
legit chance to get into the 'offs.

    
    
        Could be worse Joe, Your team might be 75 years w/o a WS
    Championship.

1. Indians getting into the playoffs as a wild-card is one more reason why
the realignment is bogus. If they were finally gonna get into the playoffs
they should have to win the division.

re: .131

2. Indians last won the WS in 1948, pennant in 1954. Fortunately for
their fans since 1954 the Indians have never contended; heartbreaks
happen when a team is soooo close and just can't win. Consider if
the Red Sox had not had any real contenders for 75 years or the Rangers in
54 years the frustration wouldn't be quite the same as it is; probably
not even close.

The Crazy Met

    Try being a Cub fan...
    
    1908 and counting...
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

 po' po' TCS, still trying to convince somebody that his suffering is
 the greatest....

 ;^)

  > po' po' TCS, still trying to convince somebody that his suffering is
  > the greatest....
    
    Kind of tough to argue with him. The poor SOB has to be around himself
    24 hours a day. If that ain't suffering...
    

nah, Red Sox fans have suffered longer and have had worst nightmares - Rangers
have been frustrating but so far nothing quite like 1986; after tonight that
may no longer be the case.

The Crazy Met

    
    >>Hey, for an Indians fan "Ifs" are a big step forward.  B^)
    
    
    "If" yer uncle had t_ts, you'd call him aunt!!
    
    "If" a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his ass every time he jumps!!!
    
    
    "If" a Clevescum fan had brains, he'd root fer a real team from
    Pittsburgh.
    
    
    
    JaKe
    

    
    	Indians on the war path!  Takes game two from Toronto.  Mesa gets
    the win and the Tribe is on a 4 game roll.  First place all by
    ourselves.  What a deal!
    
    	Go Tribe!
    
    		WaHooooooooo!
    
    	The Chief
    

    
    	The beat goes on in the Rock n Roll capital.  The Tribe sweeps the
    Blue Jays winning the final game in 13 innings, 4-3.  This makes 6 in
    a row and something like 15 straight at Jacobs field.  The 14 or 15
    straight is the best ever for the Indians since 1957.
    
    	WaHooooooo!
    
    	Looks like another sweep may just happen this weekend with the Red
    Sox comming to town.  And with the way their playing, it looks like the
    streak may go on.....and on.......and on.......and on.
    
    	The Chief

    
    
    
    
       Yo Chief.....
    
       About the Red Sox comming to town and the possibility of a sweep. 
    Would you care to back that statement up?????
    
    Jerry

re: .140

that is the Hal we all know, never here when the going gets tough.

The Crazy Met

    
> that is the Hal we all know, never here when the going gets tough.
                                                    
    Well, even as bad as the Sox are playing right now, if he has the
    cajones to make such a blatant KOD prediction as a four-game Indians' 
    sweep, he better have his butt back in here Monday if it doesn't
    happen... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    
    	Clemens is washed up!  It will not be him that beats the Tribe if
    they lose.....one game.  The way the Indians have been playing at home
    (best in the majors), the possibility is certainly there.  You can bet
    the park will be sold out each and every game!
    
    	WaHoooooooo!
    
    	The rookie goes tonight and this will be the sox only chance for a
    win in Cleveland!  Lets ROCK!
    
    	GO TRIBE!
    
    		The Chief

>    	Clemens is washed up!  


Yes, folks, there you have it.  Objective Baseball Analysis according
to Hal.....

>                 -< What are you willing to do if they do??? >-
    
    Are we talking my one Boston win to your Cleveland sweep?  How about a
    week of "Morris/Clemens can't sniff Clemens'/Morris' jock?"  (They're
    not going head-to-head, alas, but it'll do).  Granted, the risk on my
    part isn't that great, but those who know me will vouch that the 
    chance would be the most personally distressing result possible, so 
    the payoff's big.  And since you're the one flapping your gums about 
    a sweep...
    
    glenn
    

�    Are we talking my one Boston win to your Cleveland sweep?  How about a
�    week of "Morris/Clemens can't sniff Clemens'/Morris' jock?"  (They're

	Better watch it with those quotes Glenn.  One slip of the Caps Lock
key and the ::SPROTS community gets in a lynching mood...

				   /Don

    
    
          Hal you can't really believe Clemens is wahed up do you? He's
    better than any tribe pitcher including Mr Clark. It's his team that
    sips not him.
    
    
    Chap

    
    Re .147
    
>    Hal you can't really believe Clemens is wahed up do you? He's better
>    than any tribe pitcher including Mr Clark. It's his team that sips
>    not him.
    
    Including Mr. Clark?  Clark's the third best pitcher on the Tribe
    right now, _maybe_ second best, and that's only if we don't include
    the prospects.
    
    And while Clemens is doing better than Nagy this season, I wouldn't
    be terribly surprised if Nagy has a better career from this point on
    (though, career-wise, he's obviously not going to catch Clemens).
    
    Risking the wrath of the Baseball Gods, I'll join Hal in his
    prediction for a Tribe sweep.  Knowing how poorly my predictions
    come out, this is almost certainly a KoD, but what the heck...
    
    Joe
    

    Maybe I'm bold or maybe not, but it seems to me this would be the time
    for Boston to rebound a little.  They've gone through a bad stretch
    (especially at home) and it will do them a world of good to get away
    from Fenway now.
    
    I look for Boston to at least split.  Then my Twinners can take over
    first!  That's if we continue our winning ways.  :*O
    
    
    Spud

    
    
    
       OK Chief and Joe.....
    
      I am willing to make any type of non-monitary wager ie pname bet with
    either or both of you.  Cleveland will not sweep and my guess is a
    split.  Please let me know if either of you are interested I would be 
    glad to take you up on it.  And as far as Clemens and being washed up
    I will say that game will be won by the sox.
    
    Jerry

    
    	I think I would rather play this series for a buck a run........
    
    	and I still don't think the sox will turn it around in Cleveland.
    	The Tribe is ROCK'EN right now.  Murphy is killing the ball.
    
    	Did anyone see Suwey (SP) pitch the other night??  What a wild man.
    	But he can surely throw one hell of a fast ball!  No control
    	though.  At the end of the game with guys on 2nd and 3rd, 1 run
    	lead and its..........STRIKE THREE!  You see him comming off the
    	mound with this wild look in his eyes...F__K YEA! he says....if you
    	read lips.....
    
    	Ok, which games are on the tube this series???
    
    		WaHoooooo!
    
    	The Chief

Okay, who slipped the LSD into Hal's coke again?

>                   -< Swindell > Clemens >-
    
    The correct spelling and case for this comparison is SWIDELL > CLEMONS.
    As expressed above, it just doesn't make any sense.
    
    Funny, I didn't see any response to Jerry's or my p-name bait...
    
    
    glenn
    

Folks this may be the only time you ever see Glenn offer a p_name
bet - I know I can't remember another time that he has done that. Take
him up on it, don't lose out on this unique opportunity.

The Crazy Met

 can I take you up on it?????????

 ;^)

    
    Re .153
    
    I took Jerry up on his offer via email.
    
    Joe

 It's Glenn or nothing for me.........

;^)

> It's Glenn or nothing for me.........
    
    For you MikeC, substitute Maddux' name for Morris' and you've got a
    deal.  You really think that the Indians are going to sweep?
    
    glenn
    

    
    	AAAAAAHHHAAHHAAHAHA!  I was laughing my butt off last night and
    almost woke up the whole family when the game ended.  Why should I
    expect less???  Not this year, the Indians have gotten where they are
    right now because of the late inning heroics just like yesterdays game.
    With the Tribe playing this well, this early in the season...anything
    is possible.  Cleveland, for the last several years always seemed to
    start the season bad but end playing some of the best ball in the
    league.  I hope the trend continues this year.
    	I thought it was great watching that game.  How many people were
    there?  At many parks, going into the ninth down two runs, the stadium
    would be half empty.  Oh NO!  Not in Cleveland!  I don't think one fan
    left the game.  Here we were, bottom of the ninth, two outs, down by
    one run, winning run on 2nd, the best hitter on the Tribe at the plate,
    1st base open,..........the crowd is standing and going crazy, the song
    "WE WILL, WE WILL, ROCK YOU" is playing in the background.........the
    pitch.........the swing..........SMACK!!!  Albert Belle lines a single
    to left center......one run scores......Carlos Bearga turns third base
    and slides head first to home plate......the throw is wide and the 
    place goes wild!!!!  Man, it was like we just won the world series.  I
    really wonder how we will handle the playoffs this year.....Its going
    to be one hell of a ride!  YeeeeeHa!
    	Looks like I'll be taken out the broom this weekend.......
    
    
    	WaHooooooooooo!
    
    Did ya see the resturant out in the left field corner?  Looked nice!
    
    
    		The Chief
    

    did you really say, first base was open, winning run on second and he
    pitched to albert belle?!!!!  Two outs???
    
    I was gonna let butch break .500...

    
    
     Hey yo Chief.....
    
       I still see your talking trash why not show a little guts like Joe
    and back that prediction of a sweep up.  I quess what Jake says is true
    about people from Clevescum.
    
    Jerry
    

    
    Re .161
    
    Can't really blame Hobson too much for that one.  If you pitch around
    Belle, it's only to get to Murray, who still eats up righties.  And
    Belle _hasn't_ hit Russell historically.
    
    I was impressed with Grimsley's outing.  He was striking batters out,
    not walking batters, and not giving up many hits.  Sure, you don't
    want to see the home runs, but I can live with that from a fifth
    starter.
    
    Meanwhile, Sele was living on the edge; if it weren't for his control, 
    the game would have been a blowout.  Perhaps he's coming back from
    his overuse.
    
    That had to have been the most enjoyable game I've seen in a while...
    
    Joe

 Glenn, I'd root for just about anybody to hang a pname on ya, but I do
 like the Indians. Simply because they've been so inept for years and
 I like Joey Belle......

 anyways if you still want to bet let me know today before 11:00 as I'm out
 here around then...but I get choose the pname you wear if by some miracle
 they do sweep........

 mike

    
    Testing, testing...
    
> anyways if you still want to bet let me know today before 11:00 as I'm out
> here around then...but I get choose the pname you wear if by some miracle
> they do sweep........
    
    What the heck, you're on, if you don't mind waiting behind Joe Huber if
    the Indians do sweep (geez, still nothing from Hal).  I have it on good 
    authority that Roger's grandmama is going to be at the game Saturday,
    which gives me renewed confidence... ;-)
    
    glenn
     

>    the Indians do sweep (geez, still nothing from Hal).  I have it on good 


C'mon Glenn.

You've been in this file for years.  You KNOW Hal.

He talks trash when the team is winning, disappears for weeks when they
finally turn belly-up and glassy-eyed, and then comes back crowing for the
start of the next Cleveland season.

Would Hal EVER back up his predicitons with a p-name bet?  Not on yer
life.  Take it to the bank.....


'Saw

    
> He talks trash when the team is winning, disappears for weeks when they
> finally turn belly-up and glassy-eyed, and then comes back crowing for the
> start of the next Cleveland season.
    
    ...but you gotta love him...
    
    
    glenn
    

>                               -< He is a *fan* >-

A fan sits here and takes it when his team takes the gaspipe.

    
>    ...but you gotta love him...

Wouldn't be SPORTS without him!    

    
    	WAAAAHOOOOOOOOOO!
    
    	GAME 1:  TRIBE 7 - 6
    	GAME 2:  TRIBE (FILL IN ANY NUMBER YOU WISH)
    	GAME 3:  TRIBE   "          "           "
    	GAME 4:  TRIBE   "          "           "
    
    
    		The Chief
    

    	At least Hal is main enough to give the points when his team
    is favored, unlike another one who talked trash about how his team
    was going to crush and demolish the Pats then refused to give a
    lousy 10 points...  8^)
    
    				   /Don

    
    In case anyone misses it in light of the (at this time) ongoing
    OJ saga...
    
    The Tribe won 8-1 tonight.  Halfway to a sweep - the toughest one
    comes tomorrow...
    
    Joe

    
    3/4 of the way home.  Wasn't so tough after all, I guess; unfortunately
    I missed the game but I do understand there was some controversy about
    something.
    
    Nagy vs. Finvold tomorrow.  My personal name is now safe; the same
    can't be said for Jerry and Glenn.
    
    Joe
    
    P.S. Now with no "if"s - the Indians _have_ the best record in the AL.

    I can't wait to see the p_name's that some folks will be wearing.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    Re .173
    
    Any and all suggestions may be mailed to TRIBE::HUBER.  B^)
    
    It was Morris rather than Nagy today; which, now, I'm glad for, since
    Nagy will pitch the next game.
    
    I think Hobson could get fired as a result of this series; from what
    I saw and listened to of the games, that's not really fair, but that's
    baseball.  And I do like Wathan as a manager.
    
    Hargrove really seems to have the Tribe together now; while I'm
    not convinced that he's the best manager in the world, he seems to
    do a number of things well - use the running game, manage personalities
    and egos, get _everyone_ work (though he does have a doghouse for the
    bullpen), and other than Baerga he seems to be getting the young
    hitters to walk.
    
    9 in a row overall; 18 in a row at home.  I don't remember the Indians
    ever being in such a good position in June.
    
    Joe

    
    	As I said.....
    
    
    		SHOOSH		SHOOSH		SHOOSH
    
    
    
    	Next.....Detroit
    
    
    	WaHooooooooo
    
    
    		The Chief

    
    
    Go away Cheif....If you had any faith whatsoever in your team you'd a
    steped up to the plate and took the pname bet.  Crawl back under the
    rock or better yet take a swim in that river that catches on fire....
    
    Jerry

    
    	Funny how you want to give me crap but where were you when I
    offered the buck a run deal???  Don't feel bad bud, the Tribe is
    the best in the American League!  Why would you expect to do any
    better than just making a few games close?  Get a new team!  Join
    the waggon, jump on board for the ride of a lifetime.
    
    	WaHoooooooooooooo
    
    			SHOOSH	SHOOSH	SHOOSH	SHOOSH
    
    		The Chief

    
    As I can't yet get into my mail account on another node to receive my
    punishment from Joe, the above is a preview for Childsey...
    
>    3/4 of the way home.  Wasn't so tough after all, I guess; unfortunately
>    I missed the game but I do understand there was some controversy about
>    something.
    
    Well, it was 1-1 with two outs in the sixth before Belle hit that 
    two-run HR.  As is often the case with this sorry-assed bunch, the
    first mistake Clemens makes will often be enough to cost him 
    the ballgame.  The controversy came an inning later when Baerga 
    hooked one foul past the RF foul pole, which was ruled fair by Greg
    Kosc (not that it mattered by that point).  Apparently Kosc's 
    blindness continued into Sunday on a play at the plate, but I didn't
    personally see it as, fortunately, I was not able to torture myself 
    watching any of these games (just heard some of Saturday's)... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

>    	Funny how you want to give me crap but where were you when I
>    offered the buck a run deal???  


Where he should have been.  You know the rules about monetary wagering 
in here....

 I sent you mail Glenn hopefully you'll get it soon and wear it proudly...

 ;^)

    
    Jerry & Glenn,
    
    After going over various ideas (Clemens put downs, Hobson & Russell
    deification, and so on), I've decided instead to go with the above.
    Short, sweet, and to the point, if not as nasty as some would prefer.
    
    Hal,
    
    Try the above pname for a week.  If we've got 4 people - just 4 people
    - using this personal name, they'll think it's a movement.
    
    And that's what it is.  The End of the Curse of Colavito Movement.
    
    Anyone else is welcome to join in... B^)
    
    Joe

                                                              
    You're a class act, Joe.  While vultures like TCM interrupt their
    Simpson suicide watches to revel in another's personal misfortune,
    we still have such stand-up guys as yourself and Mike Childs (I 
    think; I'm awaiting that mail message-- I thought we had a deal on 
    that grotesque "jock" thing) to whom I don't mind losing a p-name bet.
    Fortunately, my fortunes weren't left in the hands of Hal, the Great 
    Stoneless One... ;-)
    
    Of course, there's always the risk that once you've got Red Sox fans
    doing this, a massive August/September choke and collapse are sure to
    follow.  But I'm not complaining!
    
    glenn
      

 well Glenn, I did ask to pick the pname of my choice but if it's too much
 for you when you see it you're welcome to use the 'jock' think except
 replace Morris with Maddux naturally.......

 ;^)      

                                                              
|    You're a class act, Joe.  While vultures like TCM interrupt their
|    Simpson suicide watches to revel in another's personal misfortune,

I told you Huber was OK!

    I dont think it matter's that much this year what the Indians do in
    the regular season.. If you look at cleveland as a whole you have the
    Cavs that cant get by Detroit, The Browns that cant be by Denver and
    now the Indians... Whats Clevelands tallies for Championships in the 
    last 25years (2 and 1/2 Decades, lets not drudge up things from before
    I was born :-)...)
    
    								MairB

    
    Re .185
    
    Cleveland itself has one championship in the past 25 years - the
    '93-'94 Cleveland Crunch.
    
    NE Ohio has a few more - the Canton Invaders dominated the NPSL for
    the first 7 or so years of its existance.
    
    It should be pointed out that (1) the Indians have never lost a
    non WS playoff game, and (2) the Indians have a winning record in
    the WS (both in individual games and in series).  B^)
    
    It also should be pointed out that the Indians have won not one,
    but two World Series since the last time either Chicago team won
    one.  B^)
    
    Joe

    NO Offense but who the hell cares about the Cleveland Cruch or the
    Canton Invaders or for that matter what they hell are they a Tittly
    Winks and Chess Team :-)
    
    I was only talking about the 4 real sports, you know the big leagues
    I dont care how many little league titles theyve won.
    
    Just seems to me (Of course I only watch Basketball/Football) that
    Cleveland seems to be better at choking in the big games then winning
    them... Since Im a youngin and have only watch Football/Basketball
    since the late 70's I cant recall a dominating team in either Football
    or basketball (Of course Im not one of those guys that reads/buys the
    Football/Basketball Digest/record books each year either).
    
    This year in baseball you need to go thru a few rounds of playoffs
    before the world series (YES ???) so the regular season has lost a
    little bit, this was the one thing that made the WS so exciting only
    2 of the best 4 teams had a shot at it... Hockey I consider the reg
    season as pre season, although with expansion I dont know the exact
    % of teams that make the playoffs but at one time it was 72+%....
    
    Not That Im a Bears fan but they won it all less then a decade ago,
    and we know what the bulls have done in the past decade.  Did the
    Indians win the WS in the past 25 years (Shows what I know :-)..) ?
    I watch baseball when Im at my Inlaws House (they dont miss a sox's
    game)... other then that I'll watch the world series...
    
    I just dont think you should be calling the Indians the best based on
    what they do in the regular season.. Look at Seattle in basketabll alot
    of good being the best in the regular season did for them :-)
    
    								MairB

    More like Joe is a wimp
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    	Glenn, Glenn, Glenn...  You should know better than to bet anything
    on the Red Sox!  It would've been better to take the PawSox against
    the Charlotte Knights.
    
    				  /Don

    
>    NO Offense but who the hell cares about the Cleveland Cruch or the
>    Canton Invaders or for that matter what they hell are they a Tittly
>    Winks and Chess Team :-)
    
    Soccer.
    
>    I just dont think you should be calling the Indians the best based on
>    what they do in the regular season...
    
    But I didn't; I just noted that they have the best record in the AL.
    In fact, I'm not at all convinced that they are the best team in the
    AL; I'd have to pick the White Sox, to be honest.  Baltimore's up
    there as well; the Indians, Yankees, and Blue Jays are a step behind...
    
    Joe

    
>    Glenn, Glenn, Glenn...  You should know better than to bet anything
>    on the Red Sox!  It would've been better to take the PawSox against
>    the Charlotte Knights.
    
    At this point, 11 in a row, only one loss away from the franchise
    record for a losing streak (it'd be a real shame if they won tonight
    and Butch didn't have his name and his name alone associated with 
    that record for posterity), I deserve... no, I *want* to suffer.  
    It's only right...
    
    And MikeC, as for your p-name above, it's so preposterous on the face
    of it that I'll proudly wear it as a paean to His Greatness.  One
    cannot help but read that p-name without applying the heaviest of
    sarcasm.  I'd stick a haughty "Ha!" at the end of it but I wouldn't
    want to violate the letter nor the spirit of the bet... ;-)
    
    glenn
     

 that maybe Glenn but Mike JN and few others agree with me.......

 ;^)

    
    	The Tribe once again dominated the game from start to finish and
    beat the slumping Detroit Tigers in Detroit by a score of 7-1.  This
    makes 10 straight wins as the Indians remain the hotest baseball team
    in the Major Leagues.  
    	In last nights game, the Indians stold 6 bases.  Charles Nagy got
    the win.  Yes this team is hot and now hold a 4.5 game lead in the
    Central with the best record in the American League.  
    	What a deal, I really don't think I was ever this much into 
    baseball this late in the season.  Usually the season is already over
    by now.  The people back home are going crazy.  From what I heard the
    other day, the stadium is now sold out for their next home stand of
    11 games which is to start after this series.  If the Tribe sweeps
    Detroit....watch out....the city will be going crazy with the Indian
    fever.
    	
    	WaHoooooooooo!
    
    	The rookie Grimsley goes tonight.  
    
    		The Chief

    
    Re .194
    
    Hal,
    
    Grimsley's not a rookie - he's young, but he first came up with the
    Phillies, walked as many as he struck out, and pitched just as poorly
    for the Indians last year.  He did pitch very well in AAA this year,
    though, and looks to have turned the corner.
    
    Joe

Hal, you better get a roll of Bounty, else you're gonna make a mess.....

    
> Hal, you better get a roll of Bounty, else you're gonna make a mess.....
    
    At least he has the decency to keep going to the closet... ;-)
    
    
    glenn
    

    They better slow that bandwagon down some before it passes my house,
    an out of shape ex-soccer player could get hurt when trying to jump
    on that puppy...
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

    So, are the Indians going to break the Red Sox' 1988 record of 24
    straight wins at home?  P-name bet, Hal?  ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    
    
      Glen.....
    
       Hal aint got no guts to make a pname bet like that.
    
    Jerry

    
    	HaaaHaaa,
    		I'd really have to be a fool to accept a bet like that. 
    The possibility is there for sure and they will surely get the support
    from the fans but to win 6 more games straight is going to be tough to
    accomplish.  If any team can do it, it will be these up and comming
    Indians.
    		BTW, in my closet....I keep the broom!  One down and two
    to go....
    
    		SWOOSH.....
    
    
    		WaHoooooooo!
    
    	I wana go home!
    
    			The Chief
    

>    	HaaaHaaa,
>    		I'd really have to be a fool to accept a bet like that. 
>    The possibility is there for sure and they will surely get the support
>    from the fans but to win 6 more games straight is going to be tough to
>    accomplish.  If any team can do it, it will be these up and comming
>    Indians.


HAHAHAHA yerself Hal.

You'll crow about your team in here, but when the hottest team in the
majors is on the line for something important, you start sandbaggin'
just like TCM.

I'm thinking that Hal is out-sandbagging TCM here.....

    
    Saw,
    
> You'll crow about your team in here, but when the hottest team in the
> majors is on the line for something important, you start sandbaggin'
> just like TCM.
    
    Something important?  I didn't realize the record longest home
    winning streak was important.  A nice accomplishment, certainly,
    but how is one loss followed by 25 wins followed by one loss any
    better than one loss followed by 13 wins, 1 loss, and 12 more wins?
    
    Joe

>    
>    Something important?  I didn't realize the record longest home
>    winning streak was important.  A nice accomplishment, certainly,
>    but how is one loss followed by 25 wins followed by one loss any
>    better than one loss followed by 13 wins, 1 loss, and 12 more wins?
>   


More sandbaggin.....


It goes to all the crowing about how great the Tribe is.  If they're
so great, they should easily be able to run that little streak out and
set the record.  


'Saw

> A nice accomplishment, certainly,
> but how is one loss followed by 25 wins followed by one loss any
> better than one loss followed by 13 wins, 1 loss, and 12 more wins?
  
    Okay, if the Tribe wins the 25 out of 26, Hal wins the bet.  The 1988
    Red Sox under General Joe Morgan were men enough to win 24 out of 25 
    (Clemens lost the game before the streak of 24 started, and lost the 
    game to end it, believe it or not...)
    
    glenn
    

    Isn't it interesting that the sox fans have to drag up an old
    meaningless record to try and hide the pitiful performance of the
    current red sox.  Its nice to see the Indians finally have a reason
    to be interested in baseball this late in June.  Whether the Indians
    swoon or not they did sweep the Sox over the weekend.
    
    BTW I am a fan of the "pitiful" A's.

>>    Something important?  I didn't realize the record longest home
>>    winning streak was important.  A nice accomplishment, certainly,
>>    but how is one loss followed by 25 wins followed by one loss any
>>    better than one loss followed by 13 wins, 1 loss, and 12 more wins?

> More sandbaggin.....

    How in the world was I sandbagging?  I didn't voice _any_ opinion as
    to whether or not they can do it; I just questioned the importance
    of whether or not they do so.  To be honest, I think they _can_
    do it; they are on a great roll right now.  But if I was given the
    choice of a win to give them the streak and 2 losses later or a loss
    to end the streak and 2 wins later, I'd take the 2 wins.
    
> It goes to all the crowing about how great the Tribe is.  If they're
> so great, they should easily be able to run that little streak out and
> set the record.  
    
    Easily?  Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the '94 Indians
    are the best team ever.  (I'm not claiming this, and never have, BTW.)
    To be the best team ever, they'd have to win games at a something
    approaching a .750 clip; let's farther assume that this requires 
    winning 90% of their home games.  (I'm fairly certain no team has
    ever won 90% of its home games in MLB, or anywhere near that.)
    
    A team that wins 90% of its home games (going 73-8 at home) has a
    7.2% chance of managing a 25 game home winning streak.
    
    A team that wins 90% of its home games has a 48% chance of extending
    an 18 game home winning streak to 25 games.
    
    So even for a better team than baseball has ever seen, taking an
    18 game streak to 25 isn't easy.
    
    Joe

Boy, you Tribe fans sure are a TESTY bunch!  Someone piss in yer cornflakes
this morning?


>    How in the world was I sandbagging?  

How about humor?  How 'bout "I was kidding you?"



|> It goes to all the crowing about how great the Tribe is.  If they're
|> so great, they should easily be able to run that little streak out and
|> set the record.  
|    
|    Easily?  Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the '94 Indians
|    are the best team ever.  (I'm not claiming this, and never have, BTW.)
|    To be the best team ever, they'd have to win games at a something
|    approaching a .750 clip; let's farther assume that this requires 
|    winning 90% of their home games.  (I'm fairly certain no team has
|    ever won 90% of its home games in MLB, or anywhere near that.)
|    
|    A team that wins 90% of its home games (going 73-8 at home) has a
|    7.2% chance of managing a 25 game home winning streak.
|    
|    A team that wins 90% of its home games has a 48% chance of extending
|    an 18 game home winning streak to 25 games.
|    
|    So even for a better team than baseball has ever seen, taking an
|    18 game streak to 25 isn't easy.
    



JEEZ, Joe, do you have to take the FUN out of EVERYTHING?  I was just
joshin' around (no offense Josh from Vancouver_eh) and you're throwin
all of these here dastisticks at me.....

I'm going to go get a soda because my mind is all boggled now......



[8^) in case you missed it!]

'Saw

    
    Saw,
    
> Boy, you Tribe fans sure are a TESTY bunch!  Someone piss in yer cornflakes
> this morning?

    That's what happens when your team stays in the basement for 34
    straight years and then starts winning... B^)

    Sorry about the statistics; your note made me curious just how easy
    it might be, so I had to figure it through...
    
    Joe

>
>    That's what happens when your team stays in the basement for 34
>    straight years and then starts winning... B^)

heh heh heh


>    Sorry about the statistics; your note made me curious just how easy
>    it might be, so I had to figure it through...
    
Well, I was fascinated by it all, but I didn't want to give you the
satisfaction after the spanking your bad boys gave the Red Sox this
past weekend....8^)

    
    
       Joe.    Get a life!
    
    
          Joe get used to them Sox fans wanting to make bets and calling
    you a Sandbagger and all, they did the same thing to TCW when he was
    just rooting on his team. When you haven't won something for 76 years
    you gots to make up things to hide your own teams inadequacies.
    
    
    Chap

    In case anyone couldn't tell from my p-name, I am a bored-again Indians
    fan, and I hope they take the AL pennant after the Yankees suffer the
    embarrassment of losing to the wildcard team, or better yet the AL West
    champions...
    
    glenn
    

    
    
    Bandwagon Jumper!!!

    
    	The winning streak ends at 10.  The Indians lost this game in the
    9th.  Up 5-1 going to the bottom of the 9th, the bullpen couldn't throw
    a strike.  Grimsley pitched a near perfect 8 innings but Shuey and
    Lindquist could hold the lead.  Another stolden base for Loften.  
    
    	Home streak still alive though.  Game today at 1pm.  Hopefully we
    can be updated in here...
    
    		WaHoooooooo!
    
    	The Chief

 I'm not surprised Glenn....

 ;^)


 Joe, the Celtics in the glory years of the 80 went 40-1 one year at home
 loosing only to Portland. That's ungodly .975 winning percentage. What's
 even more amazing is that they did it without any help from the refs....

 ;^)

    
    Mike,
    
    Even a team that plays .975 at home would only have a 53% chance of
    putting together a 25 game streak.  Of course, no baseball team is
    going to play .975 at home (winning 79 games) unless the game of
    baseball goes through some terribly unlikely changes...
    
    Joe

 I just figured it was my duty to point out to you that some team somewhere
 had gone over 90% at home. Given it was the C's made it more enjoyable for
 sure. 

 mike

 Did also mention how enjoayable it was to remind TCM about it?????

 ;^)

re Chappy:


	Man, you must've been beaten as a child. 8^)

	Red Sox fans don't look to hide the inadequacies of their team.
	We revel in it, we rejoice in it.  It's a given, like Tantalus
	reaching for the grapes which always receed from his touch, that
	the Championship will always be just out of reach.

	In that angst there is purity, a crucible as it were that burns
	away impurities of faux fans, and leaves behind a tempered, pure
	fan.

	It's easy to be a fan of a team that's won a lot of world series.
	It doesn't tax the mind, strain the heart, and raise a lot of
	questions in the Id.

	To be a fan of a truly bad team, like the Boston Braves, or the
	Washington Senators (first in the nation, last in the American
	League), is almost as easy, because oft times there's humor
	in the consecutive losses, the inept play, and the gimmicks
	they try to use to win.

	Ah, but to be a fan of a team that teases you, that beguiles
	you with its charm only to turn on you with the fangs of
	a Black Widow.....that takes a special breed.

	You know from the start the way it will go, you know from the
	moment the last note of the Star-Spangled Banner fades away
	on Opening Day that you'll be watching football in October
	and not the Red Sox sipping champagne.  Do we complain?
	Not so seriously.  Do we wail in ajbect misery?  No too much.

	The fact that it's been 76 years is not something we shrink
	from, that we hide or are ashamed of.  No, no, quite the
	opposite.   What you would so easily deride and make fun
	of we wear as a badge of honor...  What appears ignominious
	to you is glorious to us.

	For one day, perhaps when Glenn and I are old and grey, we
	will taste the nectar from the Promised Land.  We'll know
	the ultimate joy.   And that joy will be all the sweeter,
	and all the warmer for all the waiting....

	And in that moment, I'll actually feel sorry for the Yankee
	fans.  For no victory is so sweet as that tasted by one
	accustomed to defeat.........


'Saw

    
    
       sniff sniff,

>       sniff sniff,

Whatta you mean, sniff, sniff?   

I'm proud to be a Red Sox fan....  

    
    
    You brought a tear to my eye.
    
    
    Chappy

>    
>    You brought a tear to my eye.
>    
    
Oh, well, maybe Tito can get you a tissue.....8^)

    
    	Another victory, another series win, another streak begins.  The
    Tribe beats Detroit with the long ball and takes the series 2-1 and
    begins another winning streak.  Dennis Martinez gets the win going
    6 1/3.  Thome hits two homers and Kenny Loften gets another stolden
    base.  
    	The Indians are off today and start a 11 game home stand playing
    New York on Friday.  With 19 straight home victorys, the Tribe needs
    to win its next 6 games to break the record.  Playing the second best
    team in the American League this weekend will be a good test for these
    hungry band of wild men.  
    	Loften and Belle are eating up the league this year.  They
    collected 5 hits in their win yesterday as they battle each other for
    the batting title.
    	Look for Cleveland to be Indian crazed for the next two weeks. 
    Fans will be comming out of the woodwork.  Just look around....the guy
    pumping gas...has an Indian hat on.  The guy at the bar with all those
    women on his arm....has an Indian hat on.  The boy playing catch with
    next door neighbor....both have signed Indian gloves.  The girl with
    the bikini over there.....has the Chief tatooed on her A$$.
    
    	Yes, this is a different team and a different city with people
    realizing the Indians with the Chief (Wahoo) is real and ready to
    contend....THIS YEAR!
    
    	Go Tribe!
    
    		WaHoooooooooooo!
    
    	The Chief

    
    
        Whatta ya say Hal or Joe. A little P-name bet that the Tribe Does
    not sweep? :-)
    
    
    Chappy
    
    
    

    
    Chappy,
    
    I don't think the Tribe is likely to sweep; the Yankees are deep in
    lefthanders, who the Tribe has more trouble with.
    
    Watch out for Ramirez this weekend, though - he's eating lefties
    alive...
    
    Joe

    Belle and Lofton battling each other for the batting title? They first
    have to catch Frank thomas and Paul O'Neill. I wouldn't be surprised
    if the Yankees came in and swept the series like they did in NY last
    month.
    
    Indians may miss facing Key. They should be able to light up
    Mulholland. Abbott is inconsistent.
    

    
>    Belle and Lofton battling each other for the batting title? They first
>    have to catch Frank thomas and Paul O'Neill.
    
    Catching Paul O'Neill will take care of itself; he started the season
    playing way over his head, and is already coming back down to earth.
    
    Frank Thomas is another matter altogether; it's really scarry that,
    as incredible a year as Belle has had (if he stays on his current
    pace he'll have the best offensive year since a guy by the name of
    Ted Williams), Frank Thomas still has a .075 SLG lead and .046 OBP
    lead.
    
>    I wouldn't be surprised if the Yankees came in and swept the series
>    like they did in NY last month.
    
    I would be very surprised if they did; that's a pname bet I'd take
    any day.  The Indians have played much better at home, are hot, have
    a fifth starter now, and won't be playing against the park by having
    their righties in the lineup.
    
    Joe

    
>    Frank Thomas is another matter altogether; it's really scarry that,
>    as incredible a year as Belle has had (if he stays on his current
>    pace he'll have the best offensive year since a guy by the name of
>    Ted Williams), Frank Thomas still has a .075 SLG lead and .046 OBP
>    lead.
    
    For as much attention (deserved) as Griffey's getting for the HRs,
    forget about him being the biggest offensive force in baseball, Frank
    Thomas is once again the man, and it's not even close...
    
    glenn
    

    
    Re .232
    
>     <<< Note 63.232 by NAC::G_WAUGAMAN "Valdera-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha" >>>
    
    Did the week end when I wasn't looking?  B^)
    
>    For as much attention (deserved) as Griffey's getting for the HRs,
>    forget about him being the biggest offensive force in baseball, Frank
>    Thomas is once again the man, and it's not even close...
    
    Of course, Griffey's season is _all_ the HRs.  Belle is only .047
    behind Griffey in SLG, and more than makes up for that by being
    .052 ahead in OBP.
    
    Joe

    
    
    Glen....
    
      Who is this Jeff Bagwell guy?  Sox fans keep bringing him up and a
    mistake was made by mangement.  This couldn't be true.  I refuse to
    believe that guy in Houston was ever in the Red Sox organization, 
    no way.  :*)

    
    Oh well...
    
    I saw nothing of the games this weekend, but 2 were played, and 2 were
    lost.  Had to happen sometime, I guess...
    
    Time to start a new winning streak, I guess... B^)
    
    Joe

yabbut where is Hal????

The Crazy Met

    As expected.
    
                <<< CAM::$1$DUA5:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS.NOTE;1 >>>
                                  -< SPORTS >-
================================================================================
Note 63.230                     CLEVELAND INDIANS                     230 of 236
OPTION::LAZARUS "David Lazarus @KYO,323-4353"         8 lines  23-JUN-1994 11:00
                              -< Streak will end >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Belle and Lofton battling each other for the batting title? They first
    have to catch Frank thomas and Paul O'Neill. I wouldn't be surprised
    if the Yankees came in and swept the series like they did in NY last
    month.
    
    Indians may miss facing Key. They should be able to light up
    Mulholland. Abbott is inconsistent.
    
    

    
    OK, so it was a good call (though only playing 2 games certainly made
    the task easier).  If they hadn't put Shuey out there in the 8th
    yesterday, the Tribe might have even won one.
    
    A disappointing weekend, yes.  The end for the Tribe, no (though
    probably the end for now for Shuey, and Morris seems to be back to
    throwing batting practive).
    
    Still enjoying this season,
    
    Joe

    
    	Both loses this weekend were caused by poor pitching.  Yesterday
    Morris had 6 walks and the Friday extended game I think we had another
    5 or 6 walks.....you can't win games by giving them runners that they
    don't deserve.  
    	Must have been a hell of a game yesterday though.....12-11.  Thats
    the way you like it....lots of runs....
    	Belle hit two homers over this last weekend with the one yesterday
    being a 3 run shot.
    	Baltimore tonight.....should be another tough series.
    
    	WaHoooooooo!
    
    		The Chief

    
    
        :-)
    
           Indians can't play with the AL East.
    
    Yanks 6-0 against the Tribe this year!
    
    
    Chappy

    
    	Hey, Hey, Hey...
    
    	None of this now.
    
    
    	WaHoooooo
    
    		The Chief
    

    
    Re .240
    
    Chappy,
    
    Isn't that 4-0?  If I remember correctly, the Indians only played
    two in NY, and they just played two in Cleveland.
    
    And they can play with the AL East - they've done fine going up
    against Detroit, Boston, and Toronto, and haven't played Baltimore
    enough to matter yet.
    
    It's just the mighty Wade Boggs that gives 'em fits... B^)
    
    Joe

    
    
    
        Your probably right Joe, thats what I thought too but I could of
    swore I saw 6-0 on that screen???
    
    
    
    Chap

    Yanks swept 4 from Tribe in NY so they are 6-0.

    
    	The tribe is on a bad streak....loosing in the last inning.  This
    makes two of three games lost in the last inning.  They did however 
    win game two in the last but it shouldn't have even gotten to that
    point.  The relief pitching may be in trouble...Shuey was just placed
    on the Dis list the other day.  Let hope the Indians can pull this 
    game out tonight and split the series with Baltimore.  The Twins come
    to town over the weekend and this will even be another good series.
    Nothing comes easy for the Tribe.
    
    		WaHooooooooooooo
    
    	The Chief

    
    	The Tribe is on the WAR path again...now winning 5 straight and 6
    of their last 7.  No need for the bull pin lately with the pitching
    staff starters completing 4 of the last 5 games.
    	The Indians picked up pitcher Jeff Russell from the Red Sox.  Can
    see nothing but good out of this trade.  Thanks very much!
    	Albert Belle is terring up the league the last week hitting 4 HR's
    and ready to take the batting title lead being just a few points off
    the pace.  Kenny Loften has moved into 3rd place just behind Belle.
    Hmmm, who was saying there was no way these two guys would challenge?
    	On the road to Texas today.....hope the good pitching and great
    hitting keeps up!
    
    
    		WaHooooooooooooo!
    		
    	The Chief
    

>    	The Indians picked up pitcher Jeff Russell from the Red Sox.  Can
>    see nothing but good out of this trade.  Thanks very much!


Yeah, if you like cancer.....

    
    	The cancer was that known as the Red Sox Blues!!!  With the Tribe,
    	different chemistry, a real team and something more than hearing
    	everyone moan.....Russell will prove to be more of a gain than a
    	loss.  I don't think Russell has even pitched yet for the Indians.
    	The way I see it.....Russell will can only make this Indian team
    	better.  With Shuey out for 15 days DL, Russell will be this teams
    	closer for awhile.  Honestly, I hope he doesn't see much work.
    
    	Good job Cleveland front office! 
    
    	This trade will go down like the others....take a chance and give a
    	player a good team, good coaches and run potential....they will go
    	far....ie:  Morris.....Martinez.....Russell.....
    
    	With Albert, Kenny, Carlos, Eddie and the rest of the crew, you 
    	can't go wrong.
    
    	What did the tribe outscore the Twins by this weekend....something
    	like 32-12.
    
    		WaHooooooooo!
    
    	The Chief
     

    
    You never know, Russell might pull a Jack Morris and (1) pitch well
    while (2) being positive.  At least that's what I'm hoping happens.
    
    Hal - the bad thing that can come out of the trade is Nabholz regaining
    his 91-93 form while Russell continues to blow up.  Farr's no loss
    even if he does come back, really, but Nabholz could be.
    
    Nice to see the Indians push the Twins farther back - it's worth
    noting that the Twins and Indians finish their season series this
    weekend.  Cleveland's won 7 of 9 so far.
    
    1st place on the 4th of July.  If the Tribe can stay ahead of just
    one of NY/Baltimore/Chicago, they should make the playoffs... B^)
    
    Joe

    
    
    	Yabbut on Saturday, double eue eee eee aye talk radion was doing a
    wonderful "glad yer outa here" thang on Russell.  So were the callers.
    The guy was a Class "A" malcontent (so they said).
    
    I remain,
    keeping my POPB outa thisted
    Kev
    

|    	Yabbut on Saturday, double eue eee eee aye talk radion was doing |a
|    wonderful "glad yer outa here" thang on Russell.  So were the callers.
|    The guy was a Class "A" malcontent (so they said).

Yabut they've said that about him on every stop he's made in his career.  HAL,
just hope tha the can pitch, because it is almost guaranteed that he will be
a bad influence.

=Bob=

Russell was a classic case that was similar to a Project leader we had
in my group who fortunately is not with the company any longer.  (He knew
he was layoff meat).

His modus operandi was to blame everything that went wrong because of his
own ineptitude on everyone else.  It destroyed morale and basically sucked...

Russell was the same way.....


'Saw

    
    	I really don't think the rest of the Tribe will let Russell do
    anything to upset the chemistry of this team.  It will be hard for him
    to do with him not knowing really anyone else on the team.  I think he
    will have to prove himself to the Indians first before he can do any
    damage.  Do you really think he will be there next year???  I don't. 
    He is here to do what he can untill Shuey comes back and to give Mesa
    some rest every now and again.
    
    	YES!  1st Place at the All Star break I can honestly say I've
    never seen before.  Ahhhhhhh, this is nice!
    
    
    	Go Tribe!
    
    		WaHooooooooooooooo!
    
    	The Chief

    
    
     
     Chief
    
      I'm sure all the A's thought the same thing.  You'd be surprised how
    fast a cancer can spread when you don't pitch when given the ball.  IE
    my tummy hurts, gotta hangnail, the moon is full......
    
    Jerry

    
    
           What does everyone who leaves Boston via trade or being released
    a trouble maker?
    
    
    
    
    Chap

    
|           What does everyone who leaves Boston via trade or being released
|    a trouble maker?
 
Assuming you mean "Why..."

Uhh, other players have left Boston besides Russell and Boggs.

    
      Bruce Hurst wasn't a "troublemaker". Quite the opposite.

    
    
    
       Boggs, Plantier, Fisk (The 1st year he left I heard this) Burks,
    (clemens mentioned it),now Russell?
    
    
    
    Chap

Hurst, Boddiker, Anderson, Bagwell, Quantrill, Hatcher, Valle...

    Perry, Casey, Wickford, Hamilton, Thornton, Howard......
    

I don't remember Eckersley being tagged as a trouble maker either.....

    
    
         O.K not everyone. :-)
    
     

    Bagwell wasn't a RedSox yet.
    
    Add Oil Can Boyd to the list...

Can says he can still pitch, yet, even with the sad state of 
pitching in baseball today (Can you say Dave Righetti?), no one 
wants him. Either he's lyin' or the Sox just may have been right 
this one time.

daryll

    Not when he was traded...
    

True.

    
    Give it up, Chap.  Two weeks ago you yourself would have gladly labeled
    Russell the cancer of the century (as you did with Boggs when he was on
    the Sox).  The notes in here attesting to Russell's attitude were
    piling up at a record pace *before* the trade...
    
    glenn
    

    
    
        I loved Russell playing for the Sox? He was one of the opposing
    teams best players?
    
         And for the 93rd time "READ MY LIPS" I still hate Boggs and I
    always will!
    
    
    Chap

    Madea road trip to Cleveland with my son coupla
    weeks ago to visit my Dad and check out Jacobs
    Field.  Nice park, clean, spacious, everything, in fact,
    that Fenway ain't.  Great sound system - the place rocks
    when Omar Vizguel comes to the plate.  They sell beer
    throughout the game (Sam Adams, even!) Easy downtown access,
    easy egress after the game to the east, south, and west.
    We has seats on third base line, so my son was excited about
    getting Sox autographs.  But the Tribe sit there, they make
    the visitors stare into the sun from the first base line.
    Worked out well, though, 'cuz none of the Sox even peeked
    out of the dugout, while Baerga, Lofton, Pena, and Eddie Murray
    were signing anything that was offered.  One exception -
    Kenny Lofton with wraparound shades and game face firmly
    in place stared down my son and his Red Sox regalia and skipped
    to the next kid.
    All in all, a fun place to go and a fun team to watch.
    I hope they can survive the addition of Russell.
    Then again Jack Morris isn't exactly Mr Chemistry either.
    
    dr.a
    

>                              -< Jacobs > Fenway >-


Well, considering they had the best of the past 80 years to choose from.

I saw the park on TV the other night and it looks nice.   

But it doesn't have any ghosts yet.....

    
    	Russell pitched 1 inning the other night.......
    
    
    		stats
    
    		INNINGS PITCHED: 1
    		HITS:  0
    		RUNS:  0
    		EARNED RUNS:  0
    		WALKS:  0
    		STRIKE OUTS:  2
    
    
    	Good Job Jeff!
    
    
    		WaHoooooooooo!
    
    	The Chief
    

    Ironically form wise Russell seemed to have come around just before the
    trade.  I managed to catch him vs Toronto and he looked very sharp.
    
    Unfortunately pitching is very much a mental thing and there he had
    probably lost it with his approach to Duke's activities.  Some players
    let things like chemistry bother them, some don't.  It's the type of
    thing a millionaire athelete might have a problem with but a guy in
    1953 making 8700 and knowing there's a dozen guys who want his job
    doesn't necessarily care about.

Game wasn't on the line was it?

daryll

    
    	No, the game wasn't on the line.  The Tribe was leading 13-4 in the
    	ninth.  Just a confidence builder.  But, since first writing today,
    	another guy just told me that he lost a game for the
    	tribe...when??  Last night?  The Indians lost 6-4 but I haven't
    	seen a box score yet....anyone???
    
    		WaHooooooooo!
    
    		The Chief
    

>    
>    	No, the game wasn't on the line.  The Tribe was leading 13-4 in the
>    	ninth.  Just a confidence builder.  But, since first writing today,
>    	another guy just told me that he lost a game for the
>    	tribe...when??  Last night?  The Indians lost 6-4 but I haven't
>    	seen a box score yet....anyone???
>    

I don't know about him losing a game, but it is vintage Russell to
do it when there's nothing at stake.

Put him in a tight situation and he breaks down like an old car.....
    

    
    
        Yeah and Ryan did a great job last night huh?
    
    
    
    
    Chap

Nope he got hammered, but you already know that.

Did Ryan chalk it up to "lack of chemistry" afterwards?

Geez, Quantrill must be walking around like he's the 2nd coming 
right now the way that Russell (Is that your ERA or area code?) 
makes him out to be the vital cog in the sox drive to 
contention. 

Puh-lease.

daryll

    
    	Russell pitched in two games over the weekend.....
    
    	In a 4-3 victory on Saturday, Russell got his 12th or 13th save
    	by pitching the last inning.....
    
    		1 inning
    		0 hits
    		0 runs
    		0 earn runs
    		0 walks
    		0 strikeouts
    
    	In a 9-1 victory over the Twins on Sunday, Russell pitched the
    	last inning...
    
    		1 inning
    		0 hits
    		0 runs
    		0 earn runs
    		0 walks
    		0 strikeouts.
    
    	Total with the Indians, Russell has given up no hits!
    
    		3 innings
    		0 hits
    		0 runs
    		0 earn runs
    		0 walks
    		2 strikeouts
    		1 save
    		0 wins
    		0 loses
    
    	Great Job!
    		Keep up the good work and keep saving those games!
    
    
    		WaHooooooooooo!
    
    	The Chief
    
    

    
    	At the All-star break....
    
    		THE CLEVELAND INDIANS ARE IN FIRST PLACE!
    
    		THE CLEVELAND INDIANS ARE THE BEST TEAM IN THE 
    			AMERICAN LEAGUE!
    
    		THE CLEVELAND INDIANS HAVE THE BEST HITTING CLUB 
    			IN THE AMERICAN LEAGUE!
    
    		THE CLEVELAND INDIANS HAVE THE 5TH BEST PITCHING CLUB
    			IN THE AMERICAN LEAGUE!
    
    		THE CLEVELAND INDIANS HAVE THE BEST HOME RECORD IN THE
    			MAJORS!
    
    		ALBERT BELLE AND KENNY LOFTEN ARE JUST PERCENTAGE POINTS
    			AWAY OF HAVING THE BEST BATTING AVERAGE IN THE
    			AMERICAN LEAGUE!
    	
    		KENNY LOFTEN HAS STOLDEN MORE BASES THAN ANYONE IN THE
    			MAJOR LEAGUE!
    
    		KENNY LOFTEN HAS THE MOST HITS IN THE AMERICAN LEAGUE!
    
    		ALBERT BELLE HAS THE 3RD MOST HITS IN THE AMERICAN LEAGUE!
    
    		ALBERT BELLE IS IN THE TOP 3 IN DOUBLES!
    
    		KENNY LOFTEN IS IN THE TOP 3 IN TRIPLES!
    
    		ALBERT BELLE IS IN THE TOP 3 IN HOMERUNS!
    
    		AND THE LIST COULD GO ON AND ON AND ON............
    
    
    	This is the best Indian team that I have ever seen in my short life
    	and boy is it nice seeing it happen.  The Tribe has just barely
    	held on to 1st place with the White Sox comming on strong.  
    
    	Going to the All-star game on Tuesday....
    
    			*ALBERT BELLE*
    			*KENNY LOFTEN*
    			*CARLOS BIERGA*
    			*SANDY ALOMAR JR.*
    			
    		Guys that should be on the list.....
    
    
    			*MARK CLARK*
    			*EDDIE MURRAY*
    			*VASQUELL*
    
    	Should be an interesting All-star game tomorrow.  I'll watch this
    	game only because of the amount of Indian stars on the team and...
    	I'd like to see Albert smack a HR, Kenny steal a base and to hear
    	what everyone has to say about the TRIBE!
    
    
    		WaHooooooooooo!
    
    		The Chief

    
    	Are you sure about that???  I thought they were alternates...
    
    
    	WaHooooooooooooo
    
    		The Chief
    

When Russell is in a pressure situation, when the games really matter,
you'll see.  And then watch him spread the blame around like someone
spreading margerine on a TV commercial......

    >		ALBERT BELLE AND KENNY LOFTEN ARE JUST PERCENTAGE POINTS
    >			AWAY OF HAVING THE BEST BATTING AVERAGE IN THE
    >			AMERICAN LEAGUE!
    
    Who isn't?
    

    
    Belle and Lofton are having truly had amazing seasons so far.  If it
    weren't for the superhuman year Thomas is having with the bat, Belle
    would be my pick for MVP (yes, over Griffey), and Lofton would be
    my fourth choice.
    
    7 of the Tribe's starting 9 are now in double digits in home runs -
    Lofton, Baerga, Belle, Murray, Thome, Alomar, and Ramirez.  Sorrento
    will make it also - somehow I don't think Vizquel will, though...
    
    The one player the Indians could most afford to lose to injury:
    Eddie Murray.
    
    The one player the Indians can least afford to lose to injury:
    Charles Nagy.
    
    Charlotte (AAA) is in first place; Canton-Akron (AA) is lagging
    behind though.
    
    And the Columbus and Kinston teams have some serious prospects.
    
    Wahoo indeed!
    
    Joe

    
    Was listening to some random call-in sports show last night, when
    the topic of 1st half awards came up.  (My picks: MVP - Thomas,
    Cy Young - Cone, ROY - Ramirez, MOY - Hargrove.)  Their picks were
    largely the same, and mostly irrelevant, until they came to Hargrove.
    After praising him for the job he's done, the announcer said
    something to the effect of "of course, re-alignment has really
    helped Cleveland" to which the caller replied something to the effect
    of "yeah, if they were still in the AL East they'd probably be about
    4 games back."
    
    Huh?  Can someone explain this?  With the same schedule they would
    have had without realignment, Cleveland has a 1.5 game lead on NY.
    In either the East or central, the Tribe would have had teams
    breathing down its neck (NYY & BAL or CHW, KCR, and MIN).  How can
    it be said that realignment _has_ helped them?
    
    Of course, _will_ help them is another matter; instead of trying to
    stay ahead of NYY and BAL, they just need remain in front of 1 of the
    3 teams chasing them.  But why would anyone expect the Indians to be
    46-39 instead of 51-33 just because of realignment?
    
    Joe

    
    	Jake must have been on the other end of the phone call.......
    
    
    
    		WaHoooooooooooooo!
    
    	The Chief
    

    
    	Big series starts today and won't end untill next weekend is over.
    	In the next 11 games, the Tribe plays the White Sox 8 times. 
    	Should be very interesting.  Nagy goes tonight in Chicago.  4 games
    	in Chicago this weekend and 4 games in Cleveland next weekend.
    
    	Hope Albert gets back on track tonight...he has been in sort of a 
    	slump as of late.  Something like 2 or 3 games without a hit.
    
    		WaHooooooooooooo
    
    	The Chief

    And here I thought Hal might have turned a page; Indians lose a big
    game after leading 3-0 nary a sign. Joe could be on vacation, yeah
    that's it.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    	The Indians split the series with the White Sox and remain in 1st.
    
    	On Friday, Jeff Russell picked up another save as the big closer.
    
    		2/3 Inning
    		1 Hit
    		O Runs
    		0 Earn Runs
    		0 Walks
    		0 Strike Outs
    
    		ERA with the Tribe = 0.00
    		2 saves
    
    	Keep it up!
    
    
    		WaHoooooooooooo!
    
    	The Chief

    
    And where is TC*?

    Huh, why in the world would I have to show up here? Enjoy Brews, I'm
    outta here for a week.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    	So what is Belle's average now that he's not using a corked
    bat?  Those Indian players aren't very good at B&E.
    
    				   /Don

    
    	Yea, I heard something about his bat being conficated over the 
    	weekend.....
    
    	The Chief
    

    Confiscated and then switched a time or two...
    

    
    	From what I heard on the TV last night.....they took his bat over
    	the weekend and placed it in some umpires office.  Over night
    	someone broke in through the roof and stold it.  A different bat
    	at put in its place...the next night, the original bat (suposably)
    	was put back.  The bat was x-rayed and found to be loaded with
    	cork.
    
    	Question is:  How does this help his batting?  Does anyone know?
    
    	The Tribe lost last night 6-5 to Texas.  Don't know how the game
    	was lost seeing that the Indians were up 5-3 then tied 5-5 in the
    	seventh.
    
    	Farr, who was traded to the Red Sox said he could believe that the
    	bat of Belle's was corked.  He said that at one practice, someones
    	bat broke and the insides came out.  May not have been Belle's
    	though.  Who knows...  How many guys in the big leagues use corked
    	bats???
    
    		WaHoooooooooo
    
    	The Chief
    

Well, I don't know the physics of it all, but a corked bat will be lighter,
giving you more bat speed.   There's got to be a limit to how light a
big bat can be (ie, if it's 34", it cannot physically weigh under a certain
amount, because of the amount of wood it must contain).  If you cork it,
you get the same dimensions, with much less weight.

Frank Howard used to start out with a 34oz bat, go to a 33oz, and by
the end of the season was way down under 30oz.  The fatigue of a season
makes it harder to get around with a heavier bat.

Then too, I wonder if changing the structure of the bat from a solid to 
what is effectively a cylinder filled with a lighter material might give
more "pop" to the ball as it comes off the bat.


This is all speculation.  If I knew all about it, I wouldn't be sitting
here, I'd be one of baseball's best hitter (illegaly, like Belle)....


'Saw

    Either Belle or whoever is responsible for this has to win baseball's
    Big Dummy of the Year Award (no mean feat there).  Albert Belle needs a
    corked bat like Nolan Ryan needed a knuckleball.  Seriously, there's a
    very marginal benefit to using one (physics-wise).  If the Indians
    slump over those 10 games, heads could roll.  As it is, for what is
    considered a major cheating offense, he got the minimum penalty...
    
    glenn
    

    
    	If this is as big a deal as its made out to be....why not have 
    	x-ray machines at every stadium and require all bats to go through
    	it prior to the game with an ump as witness?
    
    		The Chief
    

    
    
    	Yabbut doncha know that the x-ray rays cause a fracture in the
    chrystalline lattice structure and make several pockets of high
    dislocation densitty??????   Ya know what happens when a 90 mph
    fastball comes in contact with one of those sites???  Believe me, it's
    not a pretty sight.
    
    	Besides, isn't x-raying baseball bats without a warrent in
    violation of the 4th amendment or somthin??????
    
    
    I remain,
    Kev_for Perry_Mason_and_Fermi
    

>    	If this is as big a deal as its made out to be....why not have 
>    	x-ray machines at every stadium and require all bats to go through
>    	it prior to the game with an ump as witness?
    
    Because everyone's not a cheat, requiring hired moles to work the stadium 
    infrastructure on espionage duty...
    
    glenn
    

                          <<< Note 63.301 by CSTEAM::FARLEY >>>
                        -< rats!  How'd I miss that?????  :*( >-
    
    

    
    	If you think that ole Albert is the only one in the Majors that
    	use the cork.........I remain mistaken.
    
    	The Chief
    

>    	If you think that ole Albert is the only one in the Majors that
>    	use the cork.........I remain mistaken.
    
    Well, okay, Hal, everyone but Albert should be suspended, because he
    was the only one honest enough to admit to having sent the clubhouse 
    boy through the stadium duct work to break into the umpire's locker
    room...
    
    glenn
    

  Just out of curiosity, what would you think would be the minimum number
of people both in and out of the Indian's organization that would have been
likely to know about Albert's bat being corked? 

  Somehow I doubt he did it himself in his basement.

  Do you suppose the umpire spotted it himself or was he tipped off?

  George

    Twas "suggested" to the Umps by White Sox Mgr. Gene Lamont.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    	No doubt that durring the All-star game, someone asked him about it
    	and then it was brought to the attention of the White Sox.  Big
    	series between the teams and they thought they needed all the help
    	they could get.  Too bad they only won a split.  
    
    	Strange thing I heard on the radio on the way into work is that
    	after the bat was taken from the umps office.  An Indians official
    	returned it.  Now, how do we know this is the real bat?  Why even
    	return it at all?  I also read in the paper yesterday that Albert
    	said he is innocent of all charges and will prove it in his
    	hearing.  Also, the company that sells the bats said that they do
    	make these kinds of bats but do not sell them to the major
    	leaguers.
    
    	I think the team can still win without Albert for 10 games just
    	because of the great hitters on the team.  The Tribe will have no
    	trouble filling in for him in the field.
    
    	On a side note.....The Tribe beat the Texas Rangers yesterday 13-3.
    	Belle hit his 27th home run...was the bat corked???  Did see
    	several signs at the stadium...couldn't read them
    	though...something like 'Belle corked'.  Jeff Russell pitched the
    	last inning.....
    
    			1 Inning
    			2 Hits
    			0 Runs
    			0 Earn Runs
    			0 Walks
    			1 Strike out
    
    			No save....
    
    	What a job this Russell fellow has done for the Tribe.  Just don't
    	understand why the Red Sox let him go...must have something to do
    	with the team chemistry.  What do ya think?  
    
    	Indians still have something to play for in the middle of July.
    	Red Sox still looking forward to Patriot season.  8-)
    
    
    		WaHooooooooooooo
    
    	The Chief
    
    

>    
>    	What a job this Russell fellow has done for the Tribe.  Just don't
>    	understand why the Red Sox let him go...must have something to do
>    	with the team chemistry.  What do ya think?  
>    


Hal, 

You can print all the Russell stats you want, till you're blue in the
face, but why don't you just save it all up and wait until something
IMPORTANT comes along. 

Those are the ones that Russell blows.  He can close all he wants
in a situation where he won't get a save, and what does it matter?


'Saw

                                                       
>    	What a job this Russell fellow has done for the Tribe.  Just don't
>    	understand why the Red Sox let him go...must have something to do
>    	with the team chemistry.  What do ya think?  
    
    I think you're heading for a big and painful fall, pal.  Any reasonably
    sane Indians fan (like Joe Huber) should have a bit more trepidation
    and humility than to be pushing all his chips across the table on this
    turd.  After all his yapping about Red Sox "cancers", our friend Chappy 
    learned the hard way, and very quickly, about Russell's chemistry lab 
    partner in crime, Greg Harris.  Your turn awaits, my friend... ;-)
    
    Fact of it is, I'm quite happy to have gotten Chris Nabholz for
    Russell, as I've always liked Nabholz (commended the Indians for
    picking him up in the first place), and if he rebounds from some 
    elbow problems he can be a very nice young lefthanded starter.  
    Thanks for the Nabholz two-hitter the other night, Chief.  Lemme 
    know the next time Jack Morris throws one a those...
    
    glenn
    

    	Chainsaw sez:
    
>Well, I don't know the physics of it all, but a corked bat will be lighter,
>giving you more bat speed.   There's got to be a limit to how light a
>big bat can be (ie, if it's 34", it cannot physically weigh under a certain
>amount, because of the amount of wood it must contain).  If you cork it,
>you get the same dimensions, with much less weight.

>Then too, I wonder if changing the structure of the bat from a solid to 
>what is effectively a cylinder filled with a lighter material might give
>more "pop" to the ball as it comes off the bat.

    The was an article in today's Worcester T&G about the advantages of
    'corking' a bat. Including the points 'Saw makes above, after the
    cork is inserted into the bat it expands. The expanded cork exerts
    pressure on the surrounding wood, making the wood more dense and thus 
    giving the ball a little more pop off the bat.
    
    The expert in the article (from Louisville Slugger) said cork will give
    you about an extra 10 feet on a fly ball. The goal is to turn 370 foot
    fly-outs into 380 'cheap' homeruns. Its not going to make a weak hitter
    capable of 500+ foot shots....
    
    Jim
    

>    
>    I think you're heading for a big and painful fall, pal.  Any reasonably
>    sane Indians fan (like Joe Huber) should have a bit more trepidation
>    and humility than to be pushing all his chips across the table on this
>    turd.  After all his yapping about Red Sox "cancers", our friend Chappy 
>    learned the hard way, and very quickly, about Russell's chemistry lab 
>    partner in crime, Greg Harris.  Your turn awaits, my friend... ;-)
>    


IMO, this paragraph is one of the most outstanding paragraphs I've seen
since I've been reading SPORTS....


Just had to say it.

    
    
        Don't move to fast Glen. You don't want to break Saw's nose off in
    your Butt! :-)
    
    
    
    Chappy

>                  -< Did I say I liked Harris Glen????????? >-
>
>    
>    
>        Don't move to fast Glen. You don't want to break Saw's nose off in
>    your Butt! :-)
    
    
    
Hey, I can just appreciate a witty turn of phrase, and Glenn certainly
did that in that paragraph.

He's still on my sh*t list for his crack about my main Jurgen Klinsmann
though 8^)

    
>            -< Did I say I liked Harris Glen????????? >-
    
    No, but it was absolutely beautiful how within a week of your "everyone 
    who leaves Boston is a cancer" speech, Harris flamed out in New York 
    under a hailstorm of dissension with his manager.  Harris came in 
    whining about misuse and Buck Showalter's response was "I don't want 
    to hear any of that crap".  Two shellackings later, Harris and his 
    'tude were gone.  How come everyone Buck doesn't like is branded a 
    cancer in New York? 
    
    If the Red Sox can just continue to strategically place these Trojan 
    Horses around the league, they just may get somewhere...
    
    glenn
    

    
    
    
          Oh Thanks for clarifying that for me Glen.
    
    
    
    Chap

>                -< We don't need no stinkin Butt Monkeys...... >-

Interesting choice of words considering all the problems the Yanks are
having referencing primates these days.....

    refresh my memory Sox fans
    
    Didn't Bagwell use to play for Boston??  
    
    

    
    
     No Jeff Bagwell NEVER played for the Boston Red Sox.
    
    Jerry

    
    A few quick back-from-brief-vacation thoughts...
    
    1) Assuming it really was Belle's bat, or Belle knew it was corked,
       this has to rate (as Glenn noted) as one of the stupidest stunts
       of the year.  Thankfully, the loss of Belle for 10 games shouldn't
       make a huge difference (a game or less).
    
    2) It now seems certain that Baerga will reach double digits in
       walks.  If he could make that _triple_ digits, he'd be an MVP
       candidate; OTOH, he's doing wonders for his eventual HOF
       chances by getting every hit possible...
    
    3) Other than Baerga and Alomar, the batters are slumping (or at
       least were until last night).  I think it's mainly Chicago
       pitching that's the problem...
    
    4) Hargrove's clearly worried about a strike; otherwise, Ramirez
       wouldn't be sitting down so often for the immortal Wayne Kirby.
    
    5) I'm not going to argue too much with Russell if he can at least
       act like a closer for now.  The downside to the trade (losing
       Nabholz) wasn't huge, though it seems most Indians fans totally
       dismiss Nabholz, who I think can pitch.
    
    6) There is no #6.
    
    7) If Hargrove allows Grimsley to throw 130 pitches again this year
       he should be shot.  OK, maybe just winged with a boomerang, but
       hopefully he's learned his lesson.
    
    8) Eddie Murray is now 6 for 8 in stolen base attempts.
    
    9) If Alomar can finish the season healthy, it will be a great
       season for him, even given the general offensive increase
       around the league.  I'm really curious, though, why he's
       hitting over 100 points better (.306 vs. .175) versus
       _righties_.
    
    Joe 

I damn near wet my pants watching Jeff do it to someone else for 
a change.

daryll

    
    
     Hal/Chief.....
    
      How'bout that Jeff Russell game on the line pressure situation whoa
    whata pick up.  Headline in the Plain Dealer (I think thats the one)
    will read "Russell not able to concentrate cat has flu".
    
    Jerry

    
>           -< Or maybe it was Hargroves terrible use of the 'pen >-
    
    Huh?  I can argue with some moves, but the use of the pen wasn't
    bad (if, as Hargrove has to, you assume Russell is a real closer).
    
    BTW, wasn't Russell's demise supposed to be a bit farther off?  B^(
    
    The one move I really have trouble with was _not_ having Murray
    sac bunt in the 11th.
    
    Now, I hate the sac bunt 99% of the time - it's a one run strategy,
    and one run strategies invariably decrease the number of total
    expected runs by giving up outs.  But in the 11th inning of a tie
    game at home, with the leadoff runner on base and two very hot
    players following... doesn't this scream sac bunt?
    
    Highlight for the Indians: Derek Lilliquist remembers how to pitch.
    
    Lowlight: Mark Clark out 4-6.
    
    Hopefully one of (Ogea, Tavarez, Lopez) will finally be given a real
    shot, rather than sending out Mesa or something...
    
    Joe

    
    
    Joe...
    
     I was just making excuses that Russell will use for his shortcommings.
    No dig at Hargrove intended.
    
    Jerry

Russell's demise comes anytime there's a pressure save situation, whether
it's opening day or what.

All of the little stats that Hal has been posting go right out the window,
mainly because of Russell blowing it last night.....


'Saw

    
    A very low-pressure _easy_ save situation too, I might add.  I also
    flipped the game over at 11 PM just in time to catch the main event.  
    Russell was fortunate not to have given up 6 runs, much less 3, but 
    he still got the job done as far as the Rangers were concerned.  It's
    the same Jeff Russell I saw with the Sox:  wild, no control of his
    breaking pitches, forced to bring in the meat.  Gawd, that didn't take
    long at all, did it?
    
    glenn
    

    
    No, not nearly as long as I'd hoped... B^(
    
    Joe

    
>    No, not nearly as long as I'd hoped... B^(
    
    Better now than in the World Series, as happened with Trojan Horse I, 
    Jeff Reardon.  The Yankees got rid of Trojan Horse II a bit too quickly
    for my tastes and now we're down to everyone's favorite human being...
    
    glenn
    

    Matt Clark(11-3) suffered a broken wrist and is out 4-6 weeks. The
    Indians,last night,again proved that no lead is safe with their bullpen
    and blew several big leads on the was to a 13-11 11 inning loss.
    
    The White Sox are poised to blow things open this weekend.

    
    
         Seeing you Sox fans are so quickly to mention Jeff Russell's night
    last night. How did your saviour Nabholz due last night Huh?
    
    
    
    Chappy

    
>                     -< Look for Indians' bubble to burst >-

    How so?  There's nothing, save Clark's injury which _might_ be
    offset by the callup of one of the kids, that indicates that
    the Tribe is anything other than what they appear to be - one of
    the top four teams in the AL this year, though not quite as good
    as Chicago.
    
>    Indians,last night,again proved that no lead is safe with their bullpen
>    and blew several big leads on the was to a 13-11 11 inning loss.
    
    Actually, the bullpen took one big step _forward_ last night,
    as Lilliquist was in '92-'93 form.  Mesa and Plunk were fair at
    best.  Only Russell was truly bad; Casian only threw two really
    bad pitches (the HR by Gonzalez and FO by Palmer).  Overall, I
    was somewhat encouraged by the performance of the non-Russell
    bullpen.
    
>    The White Sox are poised to blow things open this weekend.
    
    Could happen.  I think a split is most likely, but that hurts the
    Tribe.  If they can win 3 of 4, they're tied; a sweep and they're
    in good shape.
    
    Go Tribe!
    
    Joe

    
    
    Hey Chappy...
    
     No Red Sox fan I know of called Nabholtz a savoir.  A 5th starter
    yes, savior hardly.
    
    Jerry

    Unlike say Lee Smith who is consistent but never exceptional, Russell
    can be both very good and very bad.  He had an excellent season for sox
    last year until arm injuries cut the season short.  He also had an
    incentive contract.
    
    This year he's been very insonsistent until just before being traded
    when it looked like he finally came around.  He voiced frustrations
    which I'm inclined to believe are more prevalent on sox (vs duquette) 
    than some want to believe (non whitefield clique of globe sports fe.)
    
    Considering the market the indians made an excellent deal and I wish
    them well in there attempts to beat out Orioles for the wildcard spot
    (but don't count the jays out completely).

    	So has Russell instructed the Cleveland front office to take
    chemistry lessons yet?
    
    				   /Don

>                     -< Look for Indians' bubble to burst >-

About a month ago I mentioned that the Indians pitching staff looks like
one that will have a hard time maintaining a good level of performance
through 162 games.  I think they will have to out-score people (it may
be happening already) to keep winning, and the bullpen may get burned
out.  They look like a late-80s Yankees team.

The Indians will hold a press conference this afternoon to announce a 
contract extension for Mr. Hargrove.  No surprise here...  I didn't
hear any details as to bucks or duration. 

    
    Hargrove's been signed through '96.
    
    On the Cleveland Sports Mailing List, I did a quick little review
    of Hargrove as a manager, focusing on what I consider to be the
    most important aspects of managing - player development and team
    building.  (As a game day manager, I'm mixed on Hargrove - he was
    smart enough to have Plunk pitch to Frank Thomas in a critical
    situation this weekend (Thomas is 0-for-13 lifetime vs. Plunk),
    and doesn't give up intentional walks or overuse one run strategies,
    but some of his handling of pitchers really irritates me.)
    
    It's hard to judge the team building front impartiality, but to my
    eyes it looks like Hargrove has done a wonderful job - there is
    a sense of being a team in player quotes that I've never seen among
    the Indians before, despite the adversities the team has faced.
    
    As far as player development goes though - wow.  Since Hargrove
    took over, he's turned the following players into regulars:
    Alomar, Belle, Baerga, Thome, Ramirez, Kirby, Sorrento, Whiten.
    About the only talented player he hasn't managed to make a regular
    is Mark Lewis.
    
    The pitchers are much the same case - Nagy, Clark, Lilliquist, Plunk,
    Olin, Mesa, and Grimsley have all become regulars under Hargrove.
    
    I'm really glad to see that his contract's been extended.
    
    Joe

    
    Re .330
    
>    The White Sox are poised to blow things open this weekend.
    
    They didn't, and now the Indians have moved back in front, even
    with Baerga & Clark out...
    
    I just realized this morning that the Indians have, realistically,
    6 potential future HOF in their lineup - Murray's a lock; Belle,
    Baerga, and Lofton all have nice starts, and Thome and Ramirez
    have the potential (the Brock2 projection of Thome, for anyone
    who's read Bill James, show him retiring with over 500 HR).
    
    It's been an incredible season so far.  The Tribe needs a good
    series in NY - they really could use 2 wins - but the White Sox
    have cooled off (finally) and the Tribe has a 4.5 game lead on
    the Orioles now.
    
    Joe

>    the Tribe has a 4.5 game lead on the Orioles now.

This is the one to focus on (IMO) more than the White Sox.  The way
I see it, winning the division isn't that important.  The 1st-round
playoff format gives the division winner 3 home games in the 5-game
series.  BUT, they're the last 3 games !  The baseball rulers claim
this is the home-field advantage.  Tell that to the division winner(s)
who drops one or both of the first 2 games at the other team's park,
and goes back home needing to win 2 of 3, or sweep all 3.

The pennant race is happening now (through 8/12).  If they come
back in Sept, anyone more then 5 games back is probably cooked,
especially if they don't play the team they're chasing.  Hopefully
the whole season doesn't get thrown out.  It's nice to see Cleveland
in the hunt.  Although I hope they continue to have problems with
the Yanks.

    
    
    
         Yanks own the tribe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    
    Chap

    
    	for now..........
    
    		WaHooooooo!
    
    	the Chief
    

    
    ...and for no particularly good reason.  B^(
    
    Very disappointing series; the pitching was OK, but the hitting went
    South.  1 run?  Exceedingly impressive performance by Key.
    
    Thankfully, the Indians only face the Yankees 3 or 4 more times this
    year, and in Cleveland at that.
    
    Joe  

That is you hope the Yankees and Indians meet again this season.

The Crazy Met

    
    You really think Eddie Murray's a lock HOF?  He has been a good player
    for many years but I'm not sure as a HOF (especially a lock). I put
    Murray in a class of great players (but not HOF) such as Garvey,
    Parker, Rice, ....

    
    
    I have to agree.  But with the water'd down HOF now does it really
    matter?  Murray, Rice, Evans (both Dwight and Darrell) all had very
    solid and in some cases Rice in '78, outstanding career's, but HOF
    I wouldn't vote them in.  They have let some below HOF'ers in but
    its not like it has just started to happen it has been that way all
    along.  6 years after Ripken retires he will most certianly go to 
    Cooperstown but really, does his numbers warrant it?  The streak
    included.  Yea it is remarkable and truely a (in todays world of
    sissy athletes) a superhuman feat but does that make him HOF material?
    I don't think so and I'm sure I'm not alone.  I stongly feel that
    the streak should be in Cooperstown as in a special wing like the
    no-no's perfect games, 20 K's ect but not with the Williams, Mantles
    ect.  If someone was a solid .250 hitter should they be in the Hall?
    I say no but what it someone went 162 for 648 in one season.  Not
    a great year by anyone's standards but....what if they went 1 for 4
    in every game.  Breaking Joe D's hit streak does that make one
    a Hall of Famer?
    
    Jerry

    You've got to be kidding about Ripken's HOF credentials. Even without
    the streak,he's been the dominant shortstop in the AL the past 13
    years. He's won 2 MVP's and has solid career stats.
    
    Murray has a long career of consistency that has built into numbers far
    superior to Rice and the Evans'. He's up around 460 HRs,2900 hits, and
    1700 RBI's. Nobody with those numbers has ever not been in the HOF.
    
    The HOF'er I may question,and this is unspoken around NY(pure heresy)
    is Phil Rizzuto. We have been bombarded with two straight weeks of 
    "Don't look at his numbers,he was the glue on great Yankees team
    etc",but what gets me is that he was eligible for 15 years and then has
    been on the veterans committee for so many years.
    
    Only when the Veterans Committee stacked the deck with good friends like 
    Yogi Berra,Bill White and Pee Wee Reese did he make it. I think one of
    the big reasons he made it was his announcing career which kep his
    "injustice" firmly in the public eye.
    
    I guarantee if you called up a sports talk show with this viewpoint you
    would get hung up on pretty quick. If I was in the NY media,I wouldn't
    dare mention it either.

    
>    You really think Eddie Murray's a lock HOF?  He has been a good player
>    for many years but I'm not sure as a HOF (especially a lock). I put
>    Murray in a class of great players (but not HOF) such as Garvey,
>    Parker, Rice, ....
    
    Garvey in the same class as Murray?  Only if you ignore the little things,
    like walks and home runs...
    
    Murray strikes me as easily the strongest candidate among (Murray,
    Garvey, Parker, Rice), and I do think he'll go in without a problem
    (the HR and RBI will look really nice, and the decent walk total won't
    hurt).
    
    Joe

Murray could probalby DH another year or 2 - yuck (about the DH part) - and
get to 3000 hits and incerdibly close to or past 500 HR. Those are automatic
qualifiers for HoF unless the criteria that seem to be used are radically
changed.

The Crazy Met

>    Only when the Veterans Committee stacked the deck with good friends like 
>    Yogi Berra,Bill White and Pee Wee Reese did he make it. I think one of
>    the big reasons he made it was his announcing career which kep his
>    "injustice" firmly in the public eye.

The biggest reason for Phil Rizzuto being in the HoF is Pee Wee Reese.
Once he got in, Rizzuto had to be elected.  Former players say they
were the best SS's in MLB at that time (defense is part of the game, a
part nearly everyone forgets).  Ted Williams says Rizzuto was the best
SS he ever saw.

I never saw the guy play, but he played with a team full of HoFs
and STILL won the AL MVP award.  That alone tells me he wasn't some
average player.

Being a Yankee fan I've always taken Rizzuto-bashers as really doing
Yankee-bashing more than anything else.  Maybe that's why it took so
long for him to get his just reward.

RE                    <<< Note 63.350 by USCTR1::GARBARINO >>>

>Being a Yankee fan I've always taken Rizzuto-bashers as really doing
>Yankee-bashing more than anything else.  Maybe that's why it took so
>long for him to get his just reward.

  It's also announcer bashing. In basketball Bob Cosy had a lot more respect
before he started announcing games. 

  Also, wasn't Rizzuto the one who did some really obnoxious and sleazy
commercials for some sort of furniture company? That sort of thing wouldn't
help.

  George

Yea, the only bashing of the Scooter from this corner is as an announcer.  The 
few clips I saw of him as a ballplayer, he was pretty slick.  As an announcer,
he's the worst I've heard since Johnny Most.

=Bob=

    =Bob=:
    
    Rizzuto has definitely regressed in recent years. He's a pain to listen
    to even if you live near him and know what he's talking about. From
    1956 to about the early 80's he was a decent announcer.
    
    Joe:
    
    I don't deny that he was probably deserving compared to many they have
    let in in recent years. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth to see 
    someone get so many chances and only when the deck is totally stacked 
    does he get in. 
    
    Now Scotter is trying to get Richie Ashburn,Nellie Fox and some other
    contemporaries in. Cheapens the Hall of Fame,IMO.

      I guess you'd have to see those guys play to appretiate them being in
    the HOF. As far as the gripes against the Scooter I think that if guys
    like Ted Williams say he's the best SS he's ever seen then you can be
    pretty sure he deserves to be there. It's the Hall of Fame and the
    scooter is famous for being a great SS.
    

On this subject, check out Bill James' recent book, _The_Politics_of_Glory_.
In addition to a history of the Hall and its selection processes (and the
repeated cheapening of membership by the Veterans' Committee), he attempts
to analyze the de facto criteria for membership and to rate current and
potential future members according to those criteria.  Highly recommended.

Steve

    IMO the active eligible (> 10 years) most likely HOF'ers:
    
    1) Cal Ripken- Even without the streak,two MVP's and great numbers for 
    a shortstop. The streak makes him one-of-a-kind.
    2) Dave Winfield - 3000 hits and almost 500 HR's
    3) Dennis Eckersley- the best releiver in last 10 years and a fine
    starter for first 10 years.
    4) Tony Gwynn-The best hitter in the last 20 years
    5) Wade Boggs-The second best hitter in the last 20 years
    6) Ricky Henderson-Best base stealer and leadoff hitter ever.
    7) Ozzie Smith-maybe the best at his position ever
    8) Roger Clemens-The best pitcher of the last 10 years
    9) Eddie Murray-never great,but he's going to wind up in the top 15 for
    almost every major category.
    10)Paul Molitor-His last few years nail down the HOF.
    Borderliners: Don Mattingly,Joe Carter,Andre Dawson,Tim Raines,Jack
    Morris,Kirby Puckett,Lou Whitaker,
    
    Might have beens: Darryl Strawberry,Doc Gooden,Eric Davis
    As long as they get 10 years they're in:
    Barry Bonds,Frank Thomas,Ken Griffey jr,Greg Maddux,Jose Canseco
    
    I'm certain I've missed some names but this was done quickly.
    Glenn,fill in the errors.
    
    

    
    Getting back to the Indians (and off the HoF rathole I started)...
    
    Disappointing series against the Sox this weekend.  I was at the
    2nd game on Saturday, which was fun, though I would have liked to have
    seen Thome.  Ramirez's shot was beautiful to watch.
    
    Down 1 game for the division, up 2 & 2.5 (KC and Baltimore,
    respectively) for the wild card - it's been a great season so far...
    
    Joe

Yabut

I guess the Indians were glad to get Albert "Corky" Belle back.  Dinger in 
his firsted at-bat after his suspension - how about that!

=Bob=

    
    Re .358
    
    Decidely.  Even a team w/ as much offensive power as the Indians
    is going to be better when the 2nd best offensive player in the 
    league (3rd best overall) is back...
    
    Joe

    
    	Ya gotta love Belle when he took those two foul balls and threw
    	them over the fence.  HaHaHa.  
    
    	WaHooooooo!
    

>    
>    	Ya gotta love Belle when he took those two foul balls and threw
>    	them over the fence.  HaHaHa.  
>    
>    	WaHooooooo!
>

Yeah, I know.  It gave me a stiffie......    

    
    I _believe_ that the Indians have now clenched the if_the_players_and_
    owners_refuse_to_move_an_inch_until_October wild card, and remain just
    1 game behind Chicago.  When Ruben Amaro is producing runs (but not
    generally starting), you know the team's doing OK... B^)
    
    Joe

    
    	Lets......
    
    		Celebrate
    			Celabrate
    				Selabrate
    					selebrate
    		Sellebrate
    			Sellabrate
    				Cellabrate
    					
    
    		Ahhhh forget it.   Lets have a beer!  or two  or three...
    
    
    		WAHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
    
    

    Keep beating that drum...
    

    
    Good news first:
    
    The Indians released Jack Morris yesterday.  I have to say, he had more
    left than I thought.  He still stunk 75% of the time, though, and
    given his recent habit of heading to Montana between starts, the
    move makes a lot of sense.  This provides another opportunity for a
    young starter (probably Ogea) to gain a foothold in the majors.
    
    Also, Chicago lost.
    
    And the bad news:
    
    The Tribe was trounced by the Blue Jays last night.  DiPoto and
    Casian were awful; Stottlemyre wasn't much better, but _was_
    better.
    
    Joe

Timing seems funny on the Morris release, but I guess there are several factors:

1. He is approaching a_innings pitched bonus in his contract. 

2. He apparently was spending more effort on his farm in {mumble-mumble} than
   on the ballclub.  Of course this may have been on of those sour-grapes
   things that ball clubs sometimes do.  Kinda a_"addition by subtraction" 
   thing.

I suspect that at 39, and with a big contract, Morris will now have plenty of
time to spend on the farm.

=Bob=

    Jack Morris was one of baseball's best pitchers in the 80's. He had a
    fabulous world series for Minnesota in 1991. His game 7 performance
    clinched his place in baseball lore.
    
    His behavior since then could be used as an exhibit in the public's
    case against spoiled baseball players. Remember how emotional he was
    after the 1991 WS? "All I ever wanted to do was play for Minnesota.
    This is my home" ... And then two months later,taking Toronto's money..
    
    Unfortunately,there are a lot of Jack Morris types running around.

    
>   Of course this may have been on of those sour-grapes things that ball
>   clubs sometimes do.  Kinda a_"addition by subtraction" thing.
    
    "Sour-grapes"?  If he was pitching in his '91 form, or even '92 form,
    I don't think the question of realeasing him would have ever come up.
    But he wasn't; with the exception of a half dozen starts, he's
    been horrendous this season, and the Indians have a _lot_ of pitchers
    who they're going to have to give a chance to sink-or-swim in the
    majors in the next year and a half.  (Certainly Ogea, Tavarez, Mlicki,
    and Lopez; possibly Kirkreit, Carter, Lynch, Crawford, Byrd, and
    others....)
    
    Joe

    Morris was like that before he left Detroit.  That's why they didn't
    make an effort to resign him before he went to Minnesota...
    

Yabut you have to at least consider that the Indian's major decision point here
was not his attitude, but the combination of that an the money he was about to 
get.  I wouldn't be surprised if they had planned this all along - unless he
was doing remarkably well, they would release him once he approached his 
"innings bonus".  This is what the Red Sox did with Greg Harris.

Also, what David said...

=Bob=

    Doesn't this pay Morris regardless of strike wheras he would not be
    paid during strike.
    
    He not only carried Detroit and won a world series for Minny but he was
    invaluable to Toronto.  He was perfect example of a guy who returned on
    the investment.
    
    And Indians are doing pretty well with Jack, wonder how they'd have
    done without him.  Pena was a great move for the tribe and a very
    stupid release by the sox.

RE      <<< Note 63.367 by OPTION::LAZARUS "David Lazarus @KYO,323-4353" >>>

>    His behavior since then could be used as an exhibit in the public's
>    case against spoiled baseball players. Remember how emotional he was
>    after the 1991 WS? "All I ever wanted to do was play for Minnesota.
>    This is my home" ... And then two months later,taking Toronto's money..
    
  Well I wouldn't say it's the "public's case" against the players, more like
the radio call in crowd's case against the players. I'm part of the public
and I have no gripe against the players at all.

  As a Red Sox fan I'd love to see a guy win game 7 of a World Series for the
Sox. From that point I wouldn't care where he went. At least we'd have a
championship. 

  George (1918 and waiting)

    
    Re .370
    
    If money was the main concern, why not just wait until after the
    seemingly unavoidable strike?  Morris already passed at least one
    innings bonus - I believe the first one was at 90 innings - and
    wasn't pitching all too well up to that point.  I honestly don't
    believe, if he were just showing 1992 form (which was below average,
    but not unredeemable), they would have kept him on.  He wasn't.
    
    Re .371
    
    Morris contract is not guarentee; the Indians will owe him no more
    or less than they would if they'd kept him until the end of the
    first game after Aug. 11.
    
    And yes, the Indians were doing pretty well with Jack.  They're
    also doing pretty well with Alvaro Espinoza, but that doesn't mean
    Espinoza's any good either.
    
    The fact is, Morris is through.  It appeared that way before the
    year started; it seems quite clear now.  He had a few good outings
    this year, scattered among hoards of bad ones.  The Indians have
    a lot of young pitchers who, after working through their initial
    adjustments to the major leagues, should be miles better than the
    1994 Jack Morris.
    
    And Pena was _not_ (IMHO) a stupid release by the Sox.  The Sox aren't
    going anywhere this year; they might as well play guys who will be
    around when the team does have a chance to go somewhere.  The
    Indians have a chance to win this year; signed to a bargain contract,
    it was felt that Pena could help more than Levis or Merullo (a bad
    assumption, in my opinion, but one that had provided decent
    results).
    
    Morris' stats:
    
    141.1 innings
    163 hits (35 doubles, 4 triples, 14 HR)
    67 walks
    100 strikeouts
    OBA against - .369
    SLG against - .444
    ERA against - 5.60
    
    His numbers last year were even worse...
    
    Joe

�  As a Red Sox fan I'd love to see a guy win game 7 of a World Series for the
�Sox. From that point I wouldn't care where he went. At least we'd have a
�championship. 
    
    Well said,I agree with you. As a Ranger fan,I feel the same way about 
    Keenan. He brought a title and now he can do as he pleases.

    joe,
    	I never see it reported and it appears not to be accepted by
    current gms today like it was 'in my day' but I still observe that
    successful teams start with the catcher, then a dependable 2nd baseman
    and finally a centerfielder with range.
    
    	I would add "lefthanded defensively skilled first baseman". Exhibit
    A: Don Mattingly the mvp on American League in terms value to
    team/league standing.  I cannot watch 10 minutes of yankee play without
    him doing something that 90% of the rest cannot do.
    
    	But to the point:  Indians seem to have the three prime ingredients
    and the results show it.  Pena is part of the catching team.
    
    	Marty Barrett was the single most critical factor to redsox success 
    from 86-90 and his loss is biggest factor to decline and Pena kept sox
    in contention for two more years.
    
    billthe

>    2) Dave Winfield - 3000 hits and almost 500 HR's
>    9) Eddie Murray-never great,but he's going to wind up in the top 15 for
>    almost every major category.

How do people feel about longevity as a significant factor in HoF
membership ?  And the reverse side of that:  players not getting
in because they didn't play long enough, but were clearly among
the best when they played ?  (eg:  our beloved Thurman Munson)

  I don't know if I can go along with the idea that teams rise and fall based
on their catcher, 2nd baseman and center fielder. Sure those are important
positions but they are not everything. Pitching is at least half the game. 

  I like the Bill James school of thought which bases everything on runs
created and runs prevented. To be successful a team has to win games which can
be predicted based on the runs they score and the runs they allow. 

  When you start looking at how runs are scored, power seems high in the list.
Total bases and on base precentage are important factors. When it comes to
preventing runs, hard throwing pitchers kill rallies with strikeouts more often
than you get saved by a double play. 

  Yes it's important to have strong defense up the middle but Marty Barret did
not make the Red Sox into a pennant winning team. Good pitching and lots of
offense by Boggs, Barret, Rice, and others resulted in all those wins. 

  George 

    three that made it without longevity were dizzy dean,koufax and joltin
    Joe DiMaggio, the latter missing three war years.  George Sisler had a
    shortened career also.
    
    I'd prefer judging by best 10-12 years and I'd consider the factor of
    how many years the player was in the top 5-7 of his peers such as
    Orlando Cepeda.
    
    I'm surprised more writers just don't simple consider "Fame" as a prime
    requisite and vote im Mazeroski(sic).

    
>    Well said,I agree with you. As a Ranger fan,I feel the same way about 
>    Keenan. He brought a title and now he can do as he pleases.
                ^^^^^^^ 
                       spelling? shouldn't it be bought?

 ;^)

MikeC, if anything it is Neil Smith who bought the title - and thanks,
we'll take it.

The Crazy Met

    tcm, I can't send you mail... got an alternate node?
    

>    10)Paul Molitor-His last few years nail down the HOF.

Dave,

A lot of people say this, but I'm not convinced.  He has been hurt
so much in his career.  Can you post his #s that put him in the HoF ?

    
    Re Paul Molitor
    
    I don't have the numbers handy, but Molitor is on pace for 3000 hits
    now; he wasn't terribly close a few years back.  Given his other
    plusses, I think he's a decent bet.
    
    Joe

    His run from second to home on a missed double play clinched it for me

>Yabut you have to at least consider that the Indian's major decision point here

=Bob=,

Am I to assume, for the record, that you've taken over proprietary use 
of "Yabut" from Kev, now that he is gone?

Just curious,
'Saw

Yabut in this age of "open" systems, I suspect that Kev would want his "yabut" 
to become public domain, open to anyone who would like to use it.

I remain,
Keeping the spirit alive,

=Bob=

    
    There's an interesting discussion going on on USENET suggesting
    (and, for the record, the suggestion was not made by and Indians
    fan, and is primarily being supported by an A's fan) that Lofton
    should be the MVP this year, or if not loses to Thomas by an
    eyelash.
    
    The thrust of the argument is that while Thomas is 33 runs better
    offensively, Lofton's defense, based on previous performance (the
    numbers for this year won't be out until after the season), can
    be expected to be 28 runs better defensively, and given (1) that
    Lofton plays CF, a more important defensive position than 1B, and
    (2) that Lofton is almost certainly better in all the things that
    aren't measured in the 33 run offensive difference above (scoring
    from 2nd on a single, and the like), Lofton is probably the
    better overall player this year.
    
    I wouldn't have thought so, really, but the argument (in full) is
    fairly convincing...
    
    Joe

    1. Runs preserved is a statisitcal category that is not accepted by
    everyone and different people calculate it differently.
    
    2. The better player (whatever that means) in a given season does not
    always win the MVP. See NL MVP 1988 as one example.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

 with the Skanmees in first you expect someone outside of NY to win it?
 hahahaa.....

 While I think an everyday player should win it, my opinion means squat..

 Jimmy Keys all the way..........

 mike 

    
    	Sunday's paper mentioned that Lofton was in the top 10 in 10
    seperate categorys. He was second in total bases, which is
    outstanding for a CF.
    
    Ron

    
>    1. Runs preserved is a statisitcal category that is not accepted by
>    everyone and different people calculate it differently.
    
    Absolutely.  The exact number doesn't really matter, though, so
    long as it's agreed that (1) Lofton's defense, relative to a league
    average CF, is better than Thomas's, relative to a league average
    1B, and (2) CF defense is more important/more difficult than 1B
    defense.
    
>    2. The better player (whatever that means) in a given season does not
>    always win the MVP. See NL MVP 1988 as one example.
    
    No doubt about that.  Of course, arguing who _will_ win the MVP
    is never as interesting as who _should_ win the MVP.  B^)  Take
    the RBI leader, and you'll have the MVP 2/3 of the time...
    
    As I said, it wasn't an argument I was expecting from a non-Indians
    fan.  Not having really spent time thinking about it, I was happy
    w/ the idea of Belle as the Indian's MVP - after all, he's got a
    higher OBP, and a ridiculously high SLG.
    
    That the Indians would have two such fantastic players on the same
    team in the same year is incredible; that they'd have three other
    players performing at star levels as well...
    
    Joe
    

    
    reply .389
    
    Mr C, little bitter about the Yankees, Jimmy Key should win the Cy, but
    the Yanks play as a team so the MVP should go to the team if possible 
    no one there really stands alone like Lofton, Thomas, Griffey, etc...
    
    But what do you know, Your a Red Sox fan........keep praying that the 
    strike continues, thats the only way they won't end up in the cellar..
    
    /kevin *)
    

    Mr W lets not forget David Cone..as of right now he's the front runner
    for Cy Young.......he's got Ke yuin every category...IP,K's,ERA,SO
    
    Roger
    

    
    
        How about wins and where his team will finish?????????
    
    
    
    Chap

    
    Re .394
    
    Pitcher's wins are essentially a worthless category for comparing
    pithcers, because they are heavily dependent upon how well the
    team a pitcher throws for hits when he pitches.  Jack Morris won
    10 games for the Indians this year; however, that doesn't mean he
    pitched well - he didn't, by a long shot - it means that the Indians
    scored so many runs for him (an average of over 6.5 a game) that
    the team won those 10 games he got credit for, often in spite of
    his pitching performance.
    
    And where Key's team will finish is largely irrelevant to whether
    I'd vote for him for the Cy Young award.  If I had two equal
    pitchers, it might be the deciding factor, but that's about it.
    
    Would you vote for Hill over Maddux?  I mean, Hill is on the best
    team in baseball currently, while Maddux is on a team fighting to
    make the playoffs...
    
    Joe  

    
    One more "more interesting than the strike" thought...
    
    Cleveland's outfield this year had to be one of the best ever
    offensively in a single season...
    
    Belle - .437 OBP, .714 SLG
    Lofton - .415 OBP, .536 SLG
    Ramirez - .361 OBP, .521 SLG
    
    Given their ages, they certainly have a chance to earn the distinction
    of being the best outfield ever over the next few years.
    
    Joe

    
    Great to see a team do something nice for a player...
    
    The Indians released Matt Turner yesterday.  Turner had been
    diagnosed with Hodgkin's disease early in the season, and was
    still undergoing chemo when the strike began.  On top of that,
    his wife is pregnant.  But since the players are on strike,
    he wasn't being paid.
    
    By releasing him, the Indians are now obligated to pay his
    salary through the end of the season.  When the strike ends,
    the club will resign him to a 1995 contract (he wouldn't have
    pitched again this year anyway).
    
    Really nice to see - the only possible benefit for the Indians
    is PR, whereas for Turner this has to be a big lift.
    
    Joe

    My daughters met Matt last year when he pitched for the marlins and
    they both became Matt Turner fans (as did I). I hopr he's doing better
    with his treatment. He was a class act to my kids, which is something I
    haven't seen a whole lot of in big league players. Do you think it
    would be possible to get a letter or card through to Turner by way of
    the Indians?
    
    Dennis Faust
     

    
>    Do you think it would be possible to get a letter or card through
>    to Turner by way of the Indians?
    
    I strongly suspect so.  Everything I've heard says that they do
    intend to resign him as soon as they can do so and still pay him,
    so they undoubtedly have kept some way to contact him.
    
    Joe

>    Belle - .437 OBP, .714 SLG
>    Lofton - .415 OBP, .536 SLG
>    Ramirez - .361 OBP, .521 SLG
>    
>    Given their ages, they certainly have a chance to earn the distinction
>    of being the best outfield ever over the next few years.

Joe, please.... best OF ever ?

>                           -< Cone is teh Cy winner >-

Sorry, given the Cy Young IS the pitchers' MVP award, W-L and where
his team finishes DOES mean something.  Key is presently the favorite
for the award.

    
>>    Belle - .437 OBP, .714 SLG
>>    Lofton - .415 OBP, .536 SLG
>>    Ramirez - .361 OBP, .521 SLG
>>    
>>    Given their ages, they certainly have a chance to earn the distinction
>>    of being the best outfield ever over the next few years.

>Joe, please.... best OF ever ?
    
    Yes, best OF ever.  They aren't _now_, but with typical development
    Ramirez will be pushing .400 OBP, .600 SLG in a less offensively
    based year - and that plus Lofton & Belle means _no_ holes - and
    the problem with finding the best OF is often finding a good-or-
    better third outfielder.
    
    How many OF can you name where the low OBP was .361, and the low
    SLG was .521?
    
    Joe

    
> Sorry, given the Cy Young IS the pitchers' MVP award, W-L and where
> his team finishes DOES mean something.  Key is presently the favorite
> for the award.
    
    No, W-L record is fairly meaningless.  Unless you believe that a
    pitcher can make his teammates score more runs...
    
    Good clue that W-L is meaningless - nearly every statistic in baseball
    for a given year is most closely related to the previous year's
    performance.  For example, to predict a player's batting average, the
    best piece of data was his batting average the previous year.  However,
    for W-L records, that's not the case.  The best predictor for W-L
    record is the previous year's ERA.
    
    I'm willing to accept team W-L record as a differentiator, as I
    said.
    
    I guess the problem here is that I believe that the Cy Young should
    go to the _best_ pitcher, as determined by matters for which the
    pitcher has control (ERA, SLG allowed, OBP allowed, and so on); you
    apparently don't.  Key's a fine pitcher, and worthy of consideration;
    Cone, on the Yankees (and with Key's run support) would have a better
    record - why penalize him for pitching on a less good team?
    
    Stats...
    
    Key - 17-3, 3.19 ERA, 161 IP, .370 SLG vs., .326 OBA vs.
    
    That's great - a wonderful season, by any measure.  But good enough
    for a 17-3 record?  Only when you see...
    
    Run Support - 6.92 runs/game.
    
    Wow.  With 7 runs of support per game, and only 3.5 allowed - no
    wonder he's won 17.
    
    Now to...
    
    Cone - 16-5, 2.94 ERA, .332 SLG vs. .277 OBA vs.
    
    That's incredible.  He's one win short of Key - despite only 
    receiving 4.91 runs of support per game.  Two whole runs/game
    less than Key.
    
    Another comparison...
    
    The average hitter facing Key has a .370 SLG, and .326 OBA.  What
    kind of hitter is that?
    
    Tim Hulett - Wes Chaberlain - Jim Edmonds - Ozzie Guillen - Lance
    Johnson - Chris Gomez - Greg Gagne - John Jaha - Jeff Reboulet -
    Pat Kelly - Rich Amaral - Felix Fermin - Dick Schofield
    
    An OK mix of players.  Essentially the whole group should be back
    to play again next year, except maybe Hulett & Amaral.  No stars,
    but you wouldn't mind filling a hole with a Johnson or Edmonds.
    
    The average hitter facing Cone has a .332 SLG, .277 OBA.  What
    kind of hitter is that?
    
    Mike Devereaux - Scott Fletcher - JT Snow - Damion Easley - Gary
    DiSarcina - Vince Coleman - Doug Strange - Ed Sprague Jr.
    
    Other than Snow (who might still be young enough to snap out of
    it) and Easley (who did put up better numbers last year), this
    group is in trouble.  Devereaux's fallen apart this year, and
    Coleman's average is quickly approaching the Mendoza line.
    Other than possibly Sprague, none of these guys hold a sure job
    for next year.
    
    Joe

    Joe, a better example of how misleading W-L is would be a comparison
    between Jack McDowell and David Cone for 1993. I don't have the
    stats but if you do take a look at them.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
>    Joe, a better example of how misleading W-L is would be a comparison
>    between Jack McDowell and David Cone for 1993. I don't have the
>    stats but if you do take a look at them.
    
    Here goes...
    
    Cone - 11-14, 3.33 ERA, .343 SLG vs., .312 OBA vs.
    
    McDowell - 22-10, 3.37 ERA, .379 SLG vs. .314 OBA vs.
    
    In this case, however, I would have voted for McDowell.  Why?
    Because they're very similar in the most important category (ERA),
    and McDowell pitched for a team that won the AL West.  A
    good example of a case where team's performance would make a
    difference for me.
    
    Of course, it wouldn't have mattered, since I would have voted
    for Key (18-6, 3.00 ERA, .382 SLG vs., .279 OBA vs.) over either
    of them...
    
    Joe

    what was the run support per game for those 3??
    
    The Crazy Met
    

>>    How many OF can you name where the low OBP was .361, and the low
>>    SLG was .521?
    
    
    I'm not sure but check out the OBP and SLG of the 1990 and
    1991 Pirates with Bonds, Bonilla and Van Slyke 

    
    Re '93 run support...
    
    Cone - 2.97
    Key - 5.79
    McDowell - 4.88
    
    Re '90-'91 Pirate outfield
    
    I could be wrong, but I don't believe Van Slyke has ever had a SLG
    over .500.
    
    Joe

    
    Yes, Rice, Lynn, and Evans comprise an outfield to shoot for to be
    considered the best ever.  The Yankee outfield of the late 20's is
    another one of particular note.
    
    As I said, though, the Cleveland outfield has a _chance_ to be the
    best ever.  They aren't there yet, and lots of things would have to
    go right for them to earn that distinction, but they certainly
    have the possibility...
    
    Joe

The subject was CY YOUNG winners !!!!!!  W-L and where your team finishes
ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY makes a difference in who is selected for the
Cy Young award.  YOU can look it up.

I'm not arguing about the merits of W-L as a general indicator of pitching
performance.

    re: .411
    
    where the team finishes does make a difference, no question about it.
    it is not the determining factor but could tip the balance if it is a
    close call. Carlton '72, Seaver '75, Jones '76, Jenkins in ??,
    Gooden '85 all won Cy Young and were not on 1st place teams. There are
    others as well.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

Unfortunately, the Cy Young voters almost always overrate the W-L
numbers in making their decision, just as the MVP voters overrate
RBI.  I have to agree with Joe:  at this moment, David Cone is a
clear winner on my ballot; last year, I too would have voted for
Jimmy Key.  I'm resigned to Key winning this year.

I suppose it's unrealistic to look for any sort of mathematical or
statistical literacy in a sportswriter.

Steve

    
    Re .411
    
> The subject was CY YOUNG winners !!!!!!  W-L and where your team finishes
> ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY makes a difference in who is selected for the
> Cy Young award.  YOU can look it up.

    And I wasn't arguing that it doesn't make a difference as to who wins
    the award - I agree with you completely on that front, it does.  All
    I was arguing was that, if I were voting, I wouldn't look at it. 
    
> I'm not arguing about the merits of W-L as a general indicator of pitching
> performance.
    
    And I'm not arguing about the fact the W-L tends to be the most
    significant factor in detemining the Cy Young award.
    
    So I guess we'll just have to agree to agree on that... B^)
    

    Indians must still think that the baseball season will eventually
    continue. They traded with Minnesota for Dave Winfield in exchange for
    a PTBNL.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    Well, the Stats, Inc. simulated season ended with the Indians
    finishing 94-68, and making the playoffs as the wild card.
    Belle ends up three HR short of the triple crown, and the
    Indians hit 247 HR - a new major league record (and one you
    heard very little about them aiming at, when there wasn't any
    reason to simulate the season).  Belle's simulated season
    looks incredible - .372 BA, .451 OBP, 52 HR, 153 RBI and .743 SLG.
    Baerga hit 30 HR, Ramirez 26 (with a .275 average - I like it),
    Thome 29, Murray 23 (with a .246 average - I don't like it).
    Nagy finishes 16-9, with a 3.37 ERA; Ogea is the only youngster to
    come through (4-3, 4.80 ERA).  The Tribe scores 927 runs, second
    only to the Yankees (w/ over 1000).
    
    Joe

    
    	Are you sure 247 HR's would have been a new record? I thought
    the '27 Yankee's had over 300 HR's?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Ron

    
    No, I'm not sure, but it sounds right - the current record was given
    as 240 by the 60 or 61 Yankees, and that sounds right.
    
    Joe

yup 1961 Yankees have the record at 240. One of the Reds teams also had
something close to that back in the 1960's.

The Crazy Met

    Only in Cleveland can someone get excited by a simulated season.
    
    Mark.

    
    Excited?  Nah...
    
    What the Indians, and Albert Belle, were doing was exciting.
    The simulated season is mildly interesting.
    
    Joe

    
    	I'm excited!!!  Can't wait for the simulated playoff.
    
    	The Chief...
    
    		WAHOOOOOOO

|    Contest - name your favorite invention since the Red Sox last won
|    the world series.

the .357 Magnum

  This from the team that hasn't won since the year Truman beat Dewey. 

  Now there's a recent memory. 

  George 

yabbut, HAL before anyone finalizes a p_name bet with you they better make
sure that you agree to note at least once a day during the week that
you are paying up. You do have a notorious habit of ducking out of ::sprots
when the going gets tough.

The Crazy Met

    favorite invention... television, flourescent light?  The 440 cubic
    inch engine...

Cleveland -- City of Champions


NOT

  Actually the tribe has won twice since 1918. Of course they may have still
been the "Blues" when they won it back in 1920. 

  Oh well, Boston won the 1st one and they don't have the World Series any more
so what difference does it make anyway. 

  George 

    
    Ro .430
    
    No, in 1920 they were the Indians.
    
    Joe

    
>>> This from the team that hasn't won since the year Truman beat Dewey. 

>>> Now there's a recent memory. 

>    Now now, George. The glory days of the mid '80s Celtics, the
>    scintillating World Series of the '67 and '75 Red Sox, the
>    Super Bowl appearance of the Pats and the continuous solid
>    play of the Bruins all pale in comparison to the Cleveland
>    Whogivesadamns winning the NASL championship. Yep, that'd
>    be a real source of pride for any major league city but 
>    especially one with Cleveland's record for churning out
>    winners year after year.
    
   Same here in Pittsburgh. Of all the World Series, Stanley Cups and Super
    Bowls Pittsburgh won during my lifetime (31 years), only the
    championship of the Pittsburgh Golden Triangles (indoor tennis leauge
    in the 70's) can be compared to the might achievmant Cleveland has made
    winning the NASL.     
    

RE NASL.
    
  Less'e

  National Athletic Scholastic League    no
  National Autdoor ...
  National All Size Llll ...
  National Aviation Sky Llll ...
  Naval Aviation S... Lake ...

  I give up.

  George

  The reason I jumped back on the Patriots band wagon had more to do with the
owners than the players or the fact that they were winning. 

  I couldn't stand Pat Sullivan and Victor Kiam was even worse. Every time I
tried being a fan the owners would do something so sleazy I couldn't stand it.
They were always being sued by some employee, front office people fighting with
line backers, firing coaches during the playoffs, yuck!!! And then along came
Kiam and the Lisa Olson thing. 

  The new ownership is a breath of fresh air. I can be a fan of this team
regardless if they are winning or not. Of course if they are winning, so much
the better.

  As for the Sox, I was born a Red Sox fan, I've lived all my life a Red Sox
fan, and I'll probably remain a Red Sox fan for life. That is, if they ever
play again.

  George

    
    
    
    
          Face it both cities Sip!

    
    Actually, I'm rather fond of Boston...
    
    NY city, however, I could live quite well without...
    
    Joe

    
    Rumors from Cleveland:
    
    Vizquel might not be resigned...
    
    Lopez & Tavarez for Randy Johnson...
    
    Larry Walker signed 1 day after strike ends...
    
    Felix Fermin to be signed to fill in until Jackson's ready...
    
    (OK, I made the bit about Walker up.  The rest really have been
     rumored.)
    
    Joe

    
    
      Joe give it up Walker is commin to Boston.
    
    Jerry

>                -< Where would they play him over Ramiez??? >-
    
    Let one of (Walker, Belle, Ramirez) DH.  OK, if Walker's healthy,
    Ramirez has to DH usually (Belle does not like to DH, and doesn't
    play very well when asked to DH).
    
    It's a problem I wouldn't mind having...
    
    Though keeping everyone happy, given the contract Walker would
    require - that's a job I'd just as soon pass on.
    
    Joe

    hmmmmm??
    
    Re> Randy Johnson to Cleveland rumour.
    
    In the Seattle area there is no word of this
    
    But then again in Seattle, The M's treat us like mushrooms....
    
    Keep us in the dark and sh*t all over us ;*)

    
    The Indians have acquired Burnitz & Roa from the Mets for three
    pitching prospects (Mlicki, Byrd, and DiPoto) plus the infamous
    PTBNL.  I like the deal - Burnitz is a useful player in spite of his
    low BA (which will undoubtedly be less low in Cleveland), and Roa is
    younger than any of the trio of Tribe pitchers, with a similar
    record of success.
    
    Any thoughts TCM?
    
    Joe

    
    Peter Gammons must really enjoy driving Indians fans up the wall...
    
    First, there's the Randy Johnson -for- Manny Ramirez and Julian
    Tavarez rumor.
    
    Now, there's the "Indians very interested in Andre Dawson" rumor...
    
    Yuck.
    
    Joe

Just now saw .446 and I have to say the Andre Dawson part of it is
at least plausible.  They went for Dave Winfield, didn't they?

On the other rumor:  Joe, wouldn't you do Johnson for Ramirez and
Tavarez?  If I were the Injuns, I sure would.

Steve

I guess I'm having trouble adjusting to the 90s.  All I was thinking about
were the 20 ballgames the big unit was going to win.

Offhand I don't know the state of Johnson's contract.  I can't remember
having read about him signing recently, so maybe he'll be available on
the open market (whatever its nature turns out to be).

In any case, he can pitch for me any time.  As long as I live, I will not
forget John Kruk batting against him in the 1993 All Star Game.

Steve

    
>On the other rumor:  Joe, wouldn't you do Johnson for Ramirez and
>Tavarez?  If I were the Injuns, I sure would.
    
    Not a chance.  I'd love to have Johnson, sure, but not for Ramirez.
    Maybe for Tavarez.
    
    Joe

RE    <<< Note 63.453 by ROCK::GRONOWSKI "STEELERS Best in the AFC Central" >>>

>    Indians > Red Sox

  Not very likely. As it now sits, John Harrington is the lead negotiator
for the owners and Clemens seems to be one of the key players for the Union. 

  George

    
    
    Re> Must be the officiating...naw, there wasn't any missed grabbing the
    face mask calls....
    
    The Browns were the better team on Sunday..NO doubt!
    
    BUT....
    
    Cavs> Celtics?   Take a look up at the ceiling in the Gahden next time
    your there!
    
    Indians>  There as pathetic as the Red Sox...no advantage
    there....Atleast we make it to the World Series...When's the last time
    the Clevescum Indians did?
    
    Browns?  Advantage here this year....but that is going to slip away
    fast!!
    
    No bandwagon jumper here!

  Problem is that the Indians are peaking right now while the Sox are an
up and coming team. By the time the regular players get back on the field,
the Indians may no longer be better than the Sox.

  George

>  Problem is that the Indians are peaking right now while the Sox are an
>up and coming team. By the time the regular players get back on the field,
>the Indians may no longer be better than the Sox.
    
    Interesting idea - why do you believe this?   The core of the Tribe
    is still mostly pre- or early- prime...
    
    Joe

    
>    When you look real close, the Boston area has had the Celtics and
>    that's about it... and now that the dynasty is over, they have nada.
 
    The Bruin's have made the post season play EVERY YEAR since 1967. 
    During that time they have won 2 Stanley Cups, and have made it to the
    finals on at least 3 other occasions.  How's Clevescums hockey team
    been doing???
    
    RTG   
    

RE    <<< Note 63.457 by ROCK::GRONOWSKI "STEELERS Best in the AFC Central" >>>
    
>    Are we talking about ancient history or present.  I'm talking about
>    present.  RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW THIS SEASON OR THE RECENTLY COMPLETED
>    SEASON...

  What recently completed season? No one completes seasons any more. Some
times they don't even start seasons.
    
>    When you look real close, the Boston area has had the Celtics and
>    that's about it... and now that the dynasty is over, they have nada.
    
  By the time the real players return to the field, the Indians will have
peaked and the Red Sox will roll over them easily.

  As for the Browns, they just managed to get away with their hide this time
but next year the Pats will grind them to a pulp.

  George

RE<<< Note 63.458 by ROCK::HUBER "Most folks call them green onions, but they're really scallions" >>>

>    Interesting idea - why do you believe this?   The core of the Tribe
>    is still mostly pre- or early- prime...
    
  You're taking my comments out of context. This isn't a rational debate, it's
a rabid fan debate.

  GO PATS!!!!
  GO SOX!!!!!!!

  George

.460:
    
>  By the time the real players return to the field, the Indians will have
> peaked and the Red Sox will roll over them easily.

In other words, George, you don't figure the strike will be settled until
Belle and Lofton have retired.

Of course, that would mean that the Red Sox have somehow built up a farm
system in the interim.

Sounds pretty unlikely to me.

Steve

    
    
    Past Present ...whatever..
    
    Let's say "overall" the past upteen years...
    
    What's Cleveland WON?  
    
    How many Championships compared to Boston?  Don't blow your horn about 
    Clevescum unless you got solid facts. One season into the playoffs in
    F-ball and One uncompleted season in baseball does hold water!
    
    Again, the Celts aren't gonna win it this year on next or etc but, I'LL
    still be a fan....NOT a wagon jumper!   

RE          <<< Note 63.462 by MUNDIS::SSHERMAN "Steve Sherman @MFR" >>>

>In other words, George, you don't figure the strike will be settled until
>Belle and Lofton have retired.

  I don't think you are following the spirit of this discussion.

  George

    
    I don't care if the Browns win the Superbowl; Cavs win the NBA; and the
    Indians win the pennant, I'd rather sleep on a sidewalk in Chelsea than
    live for a day in Cleveland.

RE    <<< Note 63.467 by ROCK::GRONOWSKI "STEELERS Best in the AFC Central" >>>

>    The only good thing that ever came out of Boston was an EMPTY BUS!
    
  I've seen this before and it looks like it's suppose to be funny but I don't
understand the joke.

  What's the significance of an Empty Bus?

  George

    
    
    
    Who cares about buses....back to the point....
    
    Cleveland hasn't won S***!  

  If I were a Cleveland fan I'd keep rubbing Bostonians nose in 1948 when they
ended up tied with the Red Sox and beat them in the playoff game then went on
to beat the Boston Braves in the World in 6. 

  That was probably Cleveland's proudest moment. For Boston I don't know. You
could point to the start of the Revolutionary War and the birth of our nation
but then that's not really anything to do with sports.

  George 

There were all those World Series wins in the teens.

BTW, today is the 75th anniversary of the sale of Babe Ruth to
the Yankees.

Steve

>> Interesting idea - why do you believe this?   The core of the Tribe
>> is still mostly pre- or early- prime...
    
> You're taking my comments out of context. This isn't a rational debate, it's
> a rabid fan debate.
    
    OK, I see now...
    
    (Though, I must admit, I originally misread your note as touting the
     superiority of the _White_ Sox.  Had I realized quickly enough that
     you were referring to the _Red_ Sox, I wouldn't have found the idea
     quite so interesting, save from a psychological perspective... B^)
    
    Joe

    
       Over the past five years neither city has won a title in football, 
      basketball or baseball. If you want to hang your hat on divsion or
      conference championships then go ahead. You really have to because
      it's all you have. If you want to talk world championships then
      throw your hat on that chair over there because you haven't won any.
      I'd venture to guess that you weren't even alive when the Browns 
      won those titles in the '50s. I however can remember vividly the great
      Bruins teams ofthe early '70s, the three Red Sox trips to the WS in
      the last three decades, the great Bird-led 'Tics teams and some very
      good and yes, some very bad) Patriots teams. Cleveland hasn't even
      gotten to the Big Dance in the last 30 years much less taken home
      the blue ribbon. 

    
    
    Re:63.475
    
    
    What he said.....

    
    
    I guess I should have said what that note said..

  Boston's biggest sports accomplishment in the last few years is the silver
medal that Kerrigan won during the Olympics. 

  Boston's only national level win in the last couple years was Kerrigan's 1st
place at the Nationals year before last. 

  Better rethink this "figure skating is not a sport" stuff. 

  :*)}
  George 

Ah, memories of Swindell vs Clemens....

daryll

    
    I was both alive and clearly and vividly remember The Drive, The Fumble,
    and the Good-Old-Fashioned-S^&%-Kicking-Behind-the-Woodshed ...
    
    glenn
    
    

    
    Rumors are that the Indians are close to signing Tom Gordon &
    Kent Mercker.
    
    Great moves - much better way to spend $ than taking a chance that
    Swift will be healthy, IMHO.
    
    Joe

    
    It all depends upon how the bullpen comes together...
    
    The offense isn't going to get any better, but with luck shouldn't
    be any worse.
    
    The starting pitching has a chance, with the possible signings,
    to improve significantly.
    
    The bullpen does to, _but_ will Grover go w/ the young (and very
    good, IMHO) arms of Ogea & Lopez over half-baked vets?  Wettleland
    sure would look nice in the Tribe's bullpen...
    
    Joe

    
    
     Nice try Joe but Wettleland is going to be a Sox.
    
    Jerry

    
    Possibly.  He'd still look great in the Tribe's bullpen, though... B^)
    
    Joe

    
    Indians made a nice pick up yesterday, signing Gregg Olson (the
    one who pitches, not the one who catches) to a minor league
    contract yesterday.  Olson has a higher upside than most, if
    not all, of the other names that the Cleveland papers have named.
    Certainly Beck or Wetteland would be better, but at least Olson
    has been excellent when healthy, and isn't old enough to make that
    case too unlikely in the future.
    
    The Indians are also said to have Kent Mercker and Tom Gordon
    locked up.
    
    As much as I'm looking forward to replacement-ball, the Indians
    should have a really good team when the regulars return...
    
    And the replacements aren't doing too bad in their absence (9-6)...
    
    Joe

  Atlanta didn't have all that much luck with Gregg Olson last year. He had
an ERA around 9.5 and walked 13 guys in 12 innings.

  Any reason to believe that he's going to turn back into the old Gregg Olson?

  George

    
>  Any reason to believe that he's going to turn back into the old Gregg Olson?
    
    Not particularly, but given his age a recovery isn't out of the
    question.  And the Tribe's not out much if he doesn't...
    
    Joe

    Personally I would never Raise my Family in any city, and I hope to
    never have to work directly in one either (That major city's I dont
    consider a city Like MARLBORO as a major city, although I don't 
    think I'd want to Live there either).
    
    -1, been there seen it and really its not better or worse then boston
    just doenst have the history of boston... but then again no city does
    
    								mab

    
    
      Any Clevescum fans interested in a PNAME wager for this weekend
    series?
    
    Jerry

    
    sure.............

    
    
    
       Seeing it is a 4 game series Sox have to win 3 for a week anything
    less than that and its a week.  If either team sweeps its two weeks.
    
    Jerry

  I've tried parsing Note 63.494 in everything from English to FORTRAN but I
keep coming up empty. 

  What are you talking about?

  George

    
    what's left to say but you're on....but I'm generous 2-2 is a tie and
    no one wears a p-name of the other's choice............
    
    mike

    
    Just how many weeks do want to sign up for, Jerry?
    
    Count me in...
    
    And Paul, who's to say that working in Hudson with such a plethora
    of Indians fans hasn't rubbed off on Mike?  Maybe he'll even be
    rooting for the Cavs soon...
    
    Joe

    
    
    re George...
    
      Seems everyone got it but you.
    
      Two weeks for a sweep is fine Joe, Paul, Mike.  Is Paul the only one
    taking the odds thing.  Mike sees a split as split.
    
    jerry

    
    Paul, I have rooted for the Indians for as long as I've been in the
    file. No bandwagon jumping for me. I blew off the soxs in the
    seventies when I became old enough to make my own choices.
    
    ;^)

RE     <<< Note 63.499 by AD::HEATH "Pitchers and catchers report when???" >>>

>      Seems everyone got it but you.
    
  Everyone?

  George

    
    
      Paul...
    
      I was refering to Mike taking a split as being even.  What I meant by
    odds was the 3 games to 1 for me to pin a pname on you.  If you want a
    month for a sweep so be it.
    
    Jerry

    You know Eisenhower had the DDay invasion plan settled faster than you
    guys are getting this bet beteen division runner-ups down.
    
    But I'll tell you one thing, if there's a sweep it's the tribe being
    swept and you can pin "Rosemary Clooney sips" on me for a month if the
    opposite happens

    
>    You know Eisenhower had the DDay invasion plan settled faster than you
>    guys are getting this bet beteen division runner-ups down.
    
    OK, the Sox are more likely than not not going to finish above the
    Yankees this year.
    
    But just whom, pray tell, do you expect the Indians to finish behind?
    And will you back it up with the pname bet I offered?  The only team
    taken so far is the Yankees; if the Indians don't finish first in the
    Central someone else is going to have a better record...
    
    Joe

    well does that mean your taking my pname bet on the indians not
    sweeping?  I'm putting a lot up on that one cause ol' rc is one great
    babe.
    
    As an opinion I'd think you're dismissing the White Sox awful early
    what with some pure hitting out there to be bought if Reinsdorf
    chooses.  And Cleveland vs Redsox straight up for season record is a
    stretch with all the ifn maybes still connected to our pointed toward
    97 redsox.  See me for an ALC bet when they go head to head.

    
    Not that it is real important or anything, but it is actually 
    2 * (�*�*�*�) or 1 in 8 or 12.5%
    
    Marc
    

    Okay, add me in opposite Joe Huber to make this even, since you're not
    going to make me mess with Rosemary
    
    Didn't Jim Thorpe play for Cleveland?

    
    Correct, but in your original statement you said that "either" team
    would sweep.  Whereas it is a 6.3% chance for each team.
    
    Marc
    

    
    >>    my mistake... when my brain is going 90 mph
    
    Groaner, something that small definitely isn't safe at that speed, in
    fact, like the Corvair, it's UNSAFE AT ANY SPEED.  Please belt it in
    before it falls out your ear and blows away in the breeze.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    
      re -1		Dooooooooooooooooooogh!
    
    
    		My icecream sangwich almost came outta my nose after
    	that one.
    
           					Shark

    
    
    
      Sox take game 1 on an 8th inning blast from Mcfarlane.  Didn't 
    have to good of a feeling about this game when Pierce game in
    followed by Lilliquist.  But Belinda got it done and Mcfarlane
    added his 2 game winning HR of the year.  Clark and Smith tonight
    should be a good match up.
    
    Jerry

Don't feel too bad about trading Mlicki - the guy never really did much.
Two wins does not a career make.

Now trading him and someone else for an *outfielder* - that's another matter.
The Tribe are *loaded* in the outfield - if they wanted a little depth, they
could have signed any of a number of free agents on the cheap.  And depth is
what Burnitz is - he won't be pushing Belle, Lofton, or Ramirez out of a job
anytime soon.  (Although I haven't seen much of Ramirez's fielding - I hear
it's not Gold Glove caliber...)

You're right, though - Lewis for Costo was totally useless.

Roland

My b-i-l lives in Baltimore and the papers down there are 
blasting the Orioles for letting a prospect like Eshelman go.
The team response is that they have plenty of prospects and 
couldn't keep all of em. Problem is, he's a lefty and even they 
admit they're lefty prospects are thin.

Nice move DQ.

daryll

    
    
    Ryan sucks.  Will never amount to a reliable closer.

    
    Expecting something of a White Sox surge...
    
    September 22nd, clinch w/ a Tribe win.
    
    Joe

  Can we have a look at their schedule for the last 2 weeks?

  George

  Ok, Sep 26 -- at Minnesota, the Indians will beat the "Twinkies" to win the
division. 

  George

    
    
       Paul...
    
      How many times can the Tribe come back in the late innings?
    
    Jerry

    Paul,
    Gammons wrote Sunday that the Tribe is seriously thinking of starting
    Tavarez and another kid and kicking Clark and Black out of the
    rotation. 
    Your wish may come true.
    
    Mike

    
    While Ogea or Tavarez are better than Grimsley, Grimsley's no stiff.
    He does need to be used w/ care - he can't go over 100 pitches and
    come back strong - but he can pitch.  The real problem is that Hargrove
    seems to think a lefty starter is necessary, rather than just nice to
    have if you've got one.  A starting staff of Nagy, Martinez, Hershiser,
    Tavarez, and Ogea, with Clark coming back once he's regained his 
    effectiveness in Buffalo, would be fine.  Assenmacher, Poole, and Plunk
    provide nice support for Mesa (who's really surprised me - as a starter
    he was a stiff, as a reliever he's been quite good) in the bullpen...
    
    Meanwhile Ramirez is the MVP-to-this-point, and with help from Thome &
    Sorrento & Baerga has made the relatively poor starts by Belle & Lofton
    hurt less.
    
    It's going to be a fun season...
    
    Joe

    
    ] How many times can the Tribe come back in the late innings?
    
    Probably about as many as they can build an early lead.
    
    Joe

  Isn't that because Cleveland has more seats than the Red Sox?

  George

    When's the last time the Indians outdrew the redsox - 59?, 66?  Last
    year doesn't count.
    
    I was interested in the tribe but they're about 3 years behind
    schedule.  I still question the pitching but perhaps there's no one to
    challenge them except KC if they get going.  I don't know what's going
    on with chi-sox, you tell me.
    
    Good luck Indians, you'll have to do it without me but it's a long way
    to tipperary.

Benes has been getting pounded regularly hasn't he?

           <<< Note 63.543 by SALEM::DODA "Chairman of the Bored" >>>

>Benes has been getting pounded regularly hasn't he?

   Name      ERA   W L  SV   IP    H  BB SO  ER  HR  G  GS  CG  GF   SH
Andy Benes  5.625  0 4  0   32.0  40  12 30  20   5  6   6   0   0    0 

  George

    
    >When's the last time the Indians outdrew the redsox - 59?, 66?  Last
    >year doesn't count.
    
    What a joke!
    
    When is the last time the Red Sox won the World Series, none of the
    championships prior to 1919 count.
    

Re    <<< Note 63.545 by AKEEM::GRONOWSKI "The dream is always the same..." >>>

>    When is the last time the Red Sox won the World Series, none of the
>    championships prior to 1919 count.
    
  When was the last time the Indians won the Series? Championships prior to
1949 don't count.

  George

    
    George, have a clue pal.  Cleveland's going all the way this year and
    Boston AIN'T!  Bottom line, the Sox will not win a WS championship
    before the Indians!

    >>Boston AIN'T!  Bottom line, the Sox will not win a WS championship
    >>before the Indians!
    
    
    Hey Groaner, you should find someone to bet on that lasted line, there.
    Only problem is, neither of ya would be alive to see who wins!!!!
    
    
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    
    JaKe
    

RE    <<< Note 63.547 by AKEEM::GRONOWSKI "The dream is always the same..." >>>

>    George, have a clue pal.  Cleveland's going all the way this year and
>    Boston AIN'T!  Bottom line, the Sox will not win a WS championship
>    before the Indians!

  Maybe and maybe not. Just about everyone was saying back around 1991 that
Atlanta was going all the way but Braves fans are still holding their breath.
They came real close staying alive past game 6 against the Twins then staying
alive past 9 innings of game 7, about as close as you can get but no cigar. 

  Baseball's a funny game. As Yogi says ... 

  George 

Some scout was quoted recently as saying that SD's front office is
convinced that Benes is no more than a #3, and an innings horse...gives
up lots of hits.

>    there as the #4 or Bud Black?

I can't believe Black is on any ML roster.

Has Cleveland had any serious injuries yet ?  Given the way they're
dropping around MLB, it's bound to get them sooner or later.  Tough
to get too excited when we're not even 20% into the season yet....

RE                    <<< Note 63.552 by USCTR1::GARBARINO >>>

>Has Cleveland had any serious injuries yet ?  Given the way they're
>dropping around MLB, it's bound to get them sooner or later.  Tough
>to get too excited when we're not even 20% into the season yet....

  Indian fans get excited at the prospect of winning over 60 games per year
which looks pretty good at this point. 

  George

  I agree that on paper the Indians are the best team in the A.L. but it's
a long road from being the best team going in to June and winning the World
Series. To get into the playoffs they have to:

   - avoid injuries through June, July, Aug, Sept.
   - avoid protracted hitting slumps.
   - not get overtaken by some hot team in their division with a knack for
       winning 1 run games down the stretch.

  Once in the playoffs, they have to have some luck to avoid getting knocked
off by one of the other division winners or the wild card. If they accomplish
all that, then they have to go head to head against the N.L. champion who
unlike the other A.L. teams may well be as good as them on paper. 

  It's not like basketball or hockey where the stronger team almost always wins
a 7 game series. Two or three untimely slumps and/or sore elbows and a ball
that just won't drop on the right side of the foul line and suddenly the best
team loses a playoff in 5 or 6 games. 

  George 

    
    
        Don't know why I'm doing this but!!!
    
              Groaner if the Yanks are healthy, they are the best team in
    the AL! Cleveland might have the best hitting team in baseball but
    after Nagy Cleveland's pitchers don't scare anyone! Jose Mesa is a 
    Ken Ryan Closer clone! 
    
         In a 7 game series I'd bet the farm on the Yanks with a healthy
    Key, Mcdowell, Perez, Kam, Hitchcock, Wetteland, Howe and Wickman over
    Nagy, Martinez (40) Hershiser (?) Black, Tavarez, Assenmacher and Mesa.
    
         With that Pitching staff of yours I wouldn't get fitted for the
    ring yet!
    
         Remember it's only May and Pennants are not won in May!
    
    
    Chap

Oh for the glory years of Greg Swindell.....

daryll

and just last year Cleveland was 0-9 vs. NY

    
    
    0-13 before they beat us 1 game so far this year???

    
    
         And I told you I'd bet on who goes to the series not on regular
    season records! Unlike Cleveland the Yankees have won a few
    championships (22) and regular season champs don't mean as much. 
    
    
         So put your P'name where your mouth is!
    
    chap

    
    OK, Chappy, how about this...
    
    I'll bet you one week of pname for who has the better regular
    season record & one week for who goes further in the post season.
    
    Joe

>    I'll bet you one week of pname for who has the better regular
>    season record & one week for who goes further in the post season.

don't bite Chap...hold out for the AL pennant winner...with Cleveland
the odds are in your favor....

    
    
       Another Front runner heard from?
    
    
       Nope it's the pennant or nuttin! whatsamatta Indian fans no
    confidence in your rattlesnake bitten team?
    
    
    chap

    The Yankees led by Donny Baseball, Wade Boggs and Jack MacDowell are so
    far superior to any other AL team that it's sickening. Red Sox and all
    other AL teams fans should be content right now if there team comes in
    second to the mighty Bronx Bombers. All Hail King George.
    
    :^)
    
    Mike

    
    
        Mike,
    
          I knew you'd come around!!

    
>    Another Front runner heard from?
    
    Yup, that's right, I certainly have _never_ rooted for the Tribe before
    this year... B^)
    
>    Nope it's the pennant or nuttin! whatsamatta Indian fans no
>    confidence in your rattlesnake bitten team?
    
    Sorry, I thought who went farther in the post season was what you
    wanted.
    
    OK, then, a week for regular season record & one week for the pennant,
    then.
    
    Joe

    
    
        I don't want anything to do with a regular season bet. It's like
    getting your second choice to go to the prom with you!
    
    
    chap

  Well actually, 2nd choice for the prom is probably someone pretty good.
Regular season is more like getting stuck taking someone assigned to you by the
Guidance Counselor. 

  Although I will say that I was grateful for the efforts of Mrs. Bottlefry on
my behalf.

  George

    
    
        BTW Joe I know you are an Indian fan but I was corresponding with
    mr groaner and thats why I called you another front runner. I know you
    wouldn't have took this bet last year?
    
    
    chap

     >>  I don't want anything to do with a regular season bet. It's like
     >>  getting your second choice to go to the prom with you!
    
    
     >> chap
    
    Chap,
    Any personal stories you'd like to share with us? I heard your second
    choice was one of your cousins? Not that I'd believe that.
    
    :^)
    Mike

    How come you make attendance statements and when someone compares the
    last 25 years you then retreat to 1948, the great Cleveland lighthouse
    in the sea of futility (with a few buoys called All America conference
    championships).
    
    And I suppose if the Indians fold you'll trot down the freeway to
    neighboring Kansas City to root for the Royals.

    
    Chappy,
    
    OK; I was willing to take your bet if you were willing to take mine,
    but if you'd prefer neither...
    
>    BTW Joe I know you are an Indian fan but I was corresponding with
>    mr groaner and thats why I called you another front runner. I know you
>    wouldn't have took this bet last year?
    
    It would have depended upon what mood you caught me in last year.
    Last year, the Tribe had significantly worse pitching, and was less
    willing to go with young pitchers.  They've improved this year, and
    are (along w/ the Yankees) one of the best teams in baseball this 
    year.
    
    Joe

    
    
    
         I agree the Tribe is very strong. Just with groaner making them
    out to be the 27 Yanks someone had to try and shut him up!

    
    In 144 games?
    
    I'll be quite happy w/ 100...
    
    Joe

  No I don't think so. As I recall the Cincinnati Redstockings were undefeated
back around 1869.

  George

    
    	Which team has the biggest division lead in all of baseball? 
    :^)
    
    Ron

    
>    AL Central Race:
    
>                 W   L   GB
>    Cleveland   21   9   --
>    Chicago     11  19   10
>    Eliminated:
>    Milwaukee
>    Minnesota
>    Kansas City

I have no doubt that Cleveland will take the division, but how
did KC get eliminated while Chicago is still alive?  Is this the
advent of GroanerMath?  :-)

Roland

RE    <<< Note 63.583 by ROCK::GRONOWSKI "The dream is always the same..." >>>

>    Exactly, anything less than a WS ring for the sox is a choke.  
    
  Which Sox are you talking about? I don't think either the Red Sox or White
Sox are in a position where losing would be a choke. Both have some fine
players and could make the playoffs if they got/stayed healthy but neither
is a lock.

  George