Conference hbahba::cam_sports

1. Alabama (received all 62 1st-place votes)
2. Florida State
3. Miami
4. Notre Dame
5. Michigan
6. Syracuse
7. Texas A&M
8. Georgia
9. Stanford
10. Florida
11. Washington
12. Tennessee
13. Colorado
14. Nebraska
15. Washington State
16. Mississippi
17. North Carolina State
18. Ohio State
19. North Carolina
20. Hawaii
21. Boston College
22. Kansas
23. Mississippi State
24. Fresno State
25. Wake Forest

       SEC					PAC-10
  -------------				-------------------------

  #1   - Alabama			  #9 - Stanford
  3 in top 10 - Alabama, Georgia,	  2 in top 11 - Stanford, Washington
		Florida			    (#11 with 3 losses?)
  4 in top 12 - + Tennessee		  3 in top 15 - + Washington State
  5 in top 16 - + Mississippi
  6 in top 23 - + Mississippi State


Is it ok now to say that the SEC was the best conference this year,
and NOT the PAC-10?

Jerry

FWIW, I'm not particularly a fan of either conference, although I do
like the SEC better than the PAC-10.  Heck, I'm still mourning the
SWC.

The Black COllege Football 100th year All-Time Team, as selected
by a national panel of media, coaches and others who have followed
black college football. Members will be honored during the Sheridan
Broadcasting Network's Black College All-American Celebration
Feb 19-21 in Baltimore.

OFFENSE

QB:   Doug Williams, Grambling State
RB:   Walter Payton, Jackson State
RB:   Tank Younger,  Grambling State
WR:   Jerry Rice, Mississippi Valley State
WR:   John Stallworth, Alabama A&M
WR:   Charlie Joiner, Grambling State
OL:   Art Shell, Maryland State
OL:   Rayfield Wright, Fort Valley State
OF:   Jackie Slater, Jackson State
OL:   Larry Little, Bethune Cookman
OL:   Ernie Barnes, North Carolina Central


DEFENSE

DL:   Willie Davis,  Grambling State
DL:   Ed "Too Tall" Jones, Tennessee State
DL:   David "Deacon" Jones, South Carolina State
DL:   L.C. Greenwood, Arkansas A&M
LB:   Robert Brazille, Jackson State
LB:   Harry Carson, South Carolina State
LB:   WIllie Lanier,  Morgan State
DB:   Mel Blount, Southern
DB:   Lem Barney, Jackson State
DB:   Donnie Shell, South Carolina State
DB:   Everson Walls, Grambling State

I might have made some mistakes, or just didn't know, but they
all seemed to have had fine careers in the NFL too!


'Saw


OFFENSE

QB:   Doug Williams, Grambling State			Washington Redskins
RB:   Walter Payton, Jackson State                      Chicago Bears 
RB:   Tank Younger,  Grambling State
WR:   Jerry Rice, Mississippi Valley State              San Fransisco 49ers 
WR:   John Stallworth, Alabama A&M                      Pittsburgh Steelers
WR:   Charlie Joiner, Grambling State                   San Diego Chargers
OL:   Art Shell, Maryland State				Oakland Raiders 
OL:   Rayfield Wright, Fort Valley State		
OF:   Jackie Slater, Jackson State                      Los Angeles Rams 
OL:   Larry Little, Bethune Cookman
OL:   Ernie Barnes, North Carolina Central


DEFENSE

DL:   Willie Davis,  Grambling State      		Green Bay Packers 
DL:   Ed "Too Tall" Jones, Tennessee State		Dallas Cowboys
DL:   David "Deacon" Jones, South Carolina State	Los Angeles Rams  
DL:   L.C. Greenwood, Arkansas A&M			Pittsburgh Steelers
LB:   Robert Brazille, Jackson State
LB:   Harry Carson, South Carolina State		NY Giants
LB:   WIllie Lanier,  Morgan State			KC Chiefs (?)
DB:   Mel Blount, Southern				Pittsburgh Steelers
DB:   Lem Barney, Jackson State				Detroit Lions
DB:   Donnie Shell, South Carolina State
DB:   Everson Walls, Grambling State			Dallas Cowboys

    Donnie Shell was a hard hitting safety for the Steelers, too.
    
    Bill
    

>    Donnie Shell was a hard hitting safety for the Steelers, too.
>    
>    Bill


Thanks Bill.  I recognized the name but I couldn't put it to a team....

Of course, it would've been easier if I'd had my football encyclopedia
here, but that woulda been cheatin'.....


'Saw    

    
    Brazile played for the Oilers.
    
    Too many current day stars to suit me.  I'll admit that I haven't
    followed black college football very closely, but I wonder how they can
    honor 100 years of college football, and have 90% of the winners come
    from the last 15 years.
    
    Brews

OFFENSE

QB:   Doug Williams, Grambling State			Washington Redskins
RB:   Walter Payton, Jackson State                      Chicago Bears 
RB:   Tank Younger,  Grambling State
WR:   Jerry Rice, Mississippi Valley State              San Fransisco 49ers 
WR:   John Stallworth, Alabama A&M                      Pittsburgh Steelers
WR:   Charlie Joiner, Grambling State                   San Diego Chargers
OL:   Art Shell, Maryland State				Oakland Raiders 
OL:   Rayfield Wright, Fort Valley State		DALLAS COWBOYS
OF:   Jackie Slater, Jackson State                      Los Angeles Rams 
OL:   Larry Little, Bethune Cookman			MIAMI DOLPHINS
OL:   Ernie Barnes, North Carolina Central

DEFENSE

DL:   Willie Davis,  Grambling State      		Green Bay Packers 
DL:   Ed "Too Tall" Jones, Tennessee State		Dallas Cowboys
DL:   David "Deacon" Jones, South Carolina State	Los Angeles Rams  
DL:   L.C. Greenwood, Arkansas A&M			Pittsburgh Steelers
LB:   Robert Brazille, Jackson State			HOUSTON OILERS
LB:   Harry Carson, South Carolina State		NY Giants
LB:   WIllie Lanier,  Morgan State			KC Chiefs
DB:   Mel Blount, Southern				Pittsburgh Steelers
DB:   Lem Barney, Jackson State				Detroit Lions
DB:   Donnie Shell, South Carolina State		PITTSBURGH STEELERS
DB:   Everson Walls, Grambling State			Dallas Cowboys

Buck Buchannon comes to mind -- he's not on the list.   Alan Page,
Jim Marshall.... all greats.


Perhaps they should make a second team 8^)


'Saw

    twas wonderin'...
    
    Is a "black college" one that only allows Afro-American students or
    one whose student enrollment is predomitly Afro-Americans?  What I
    mean is what determines whether a school is a "black college"?
    
    Bill

>Buck Buchannon comes to mind -- he's not on the list.   Alan Page,
>Jim Marshall.... all greats.
>
>
>Perhaps they should make a second team 8^)


'Saw,

 I think that this is a list of the greatest players from black colleges,
 not the greatest black players who played in colleges.

 Alan Page went to Notre Dame, I believe, and Jim Marshall went to Cal-Berkeley
 (but I could be wrong).

>    twas wonderin'...
    
>    Is a "black college" one that only allows Afro-American students or
>    one whose student enrollment is predomitly Afro-Americans?  What I
>    mean is what determines whether a school is a "black college"?
    
>    Bill
    
    
    Answer.  B.  One whose student enrollment is predominantly
                 Afro-American.
    
    Robert

>
> I think that this is a list of the greatest players from black colleges,
> not the greatest black players who played in colleges.

Oh, okay, I see.  My mistake....

'Saw

    As Tommy says, a school that has been and still is historically black.
    Predominately southern schools, where blacks could not attend the state
    school. (Alabama, Tennesee, Georgia, etc...) Also remember, some of the
    players from earlier either 1) didn't go to Black colleges
    (Brown->Syracuse, Simpson -> USC, Sayers-> Kansas) or didn't get to
    play positions like QB.
     
    A lot of these guys are or will be in the Hall
    of Fame, so I don't have a real beef about them being more current....
    
OFFENSE

QB:   Doug Williams, Grambling State			Washington Redskins
RB:   Walter Payton, Jackson State                      Chicago Bears 
RB:   Tank Younger,  Grambling State
WR:   Jerry Rice, Mississippi Valley State              San Fransisco 49ers 
WR:   John Stallworth, Alabama A&M                      Pittsburgh Steelers
WR:   Charlie Joiner, Grambling State                   San Diego Chargers
OL:   Art Shell, Maryland State				Oakland Raiders 
OL:   Rayfield Wright, Fort Valley State		Dallas Cowboys
OF:   Jackie Slater, Jackson State                      Los Angeles Rams 
OL:   Larry Little, Bethune Cookman                     Miami Dolphins
OL:   Ernie Barnes, North Carolina Central


DEFENSE

DL:   Willie Davis,  Grambling State      		Green Bay Packers 
DL:   Ed "Too Tall" Jones, Tennessee State		Dallas Cowboys
DL:   David "Deacon" Jones, South Carolina State	Los Angeles Rams  
DL:   L.C. Greenwood, Arkansas A&M			Pittsburgh Steelers
LB:   Robert Brazille, Jackson State                    Houston Oilers
LB:   Harry Carson, South Carolina State		NY Giants
LB:   WIllie Lanier,  Morgan State			KC Chiefs 
DB:   Mel Blount, Southern				Pittsburgh Steelers
DB:   Lem Barney, Jackson State				Detroit Lions
DB:   Donnie Shell, South Carolina State                Pittsburgh Steelers
DB:   Everson Walls, Grambling State			Dallas Cowboys
    

VNS TECHNOLOGY WATCH:                           +Mike Taylor, VNS Correspondent+
---------------------                           +Littleton, MA, USA            +

                       Hitachi Football Scholarships

    Hitachi has teamed up with the College Football Association (CFA) to 
    assist a number of students who wish to pursue a career in teaching. 
    The $335,000 "Hitachi Promise of Tomorrow" program is the largest 
    corporate funded scholarship program in college football. It will 
    offer $5,000 scholarships to students at each of 67 CFA facilities 
    who hope to enter the teaching profession. Candidates must be men 
    or women who active in this season's university football program.
    {CACM November 1992}







                              VNS TECHNOLOGY WATCH                              

    Accoring to Sports Washington, Stanford, California and ASU are
    garnering the best recruits in the PAC10, and are doing well, on
    a national basis.  Cal is the big suprise.  Washington, USC & UCLA
    are the net losers. 
    
    Offical signing day is Feb 5.  Between now and then, nothing is solid,
    its all verbal and subject to change and double crossing.
    

Double crossing in the honorable task of recruiting student-atheletes??
I am shocked!

The Crazy Met

    Anyone know where Dick "Night Train" Lane attended college?
    
    Lee

>    Anyone know where Dick "Night Train" Lane attended college?
    
If no one answers this today, I can look it up tonight for you......


'Saw

From USA Today:

Graduation Rates for NCAA Division 1 schools for student-athletes entering
school in 1986, the year Prop 48 went into effect.  Rates are
compared to those of the overall graduating class that entered in
the same year.  Ivy League and Military School not included - because
they do not offer athletic scholarships.  

LEAGUE:  ACC

School 		All athletes 	all students	football only
		85-86	86-87			85-86	86-87

Duke		89%	89%	94%		84%	90%
Clemson		48	47	70		27%	32%
FSU		39%	50%	50		34	35
Georgia Tech	60	57	68		64	58
Maryland	59	54	64		50	48
North Carolina	74	67	82		70	67
NC State	48	57	60		29	50
Virginia	81	88	92		61	80
Wake Forest	68	71	84		71	68	


Big East

Boston College	81	94	88		81	100
UCONN		49	70	68		40	56
Georgetown	97	95	92		na	na (no football)
Miami		42	52	55		52	54
Pitt		55	56	62		38	38
Providence	78	93	95		na	na (No football)
Seton Hall	69	71	61		na	na
St John's 	76	79	62		na	na
Syracuse	55	69	64		59	64
Villanova	79	78	86		79	81

BIG TEN

Illinois	64	74	78		71	75
Indiana		64	63	65		72	50
Iowa		64	63	59		58	63
Michigan	63	79	85		61	80
Mich. State	65	62	69		48	56
Minnesota	53	53	42		42	32
Northwestern	82	77	89		75	62
Ohio State	75	78	54		63	72
Penn State	75	78	77		81	78
Purdue		61	65	70		47	55
Wisconsin	64	69	70		63	81

Big Eight

Colorado	56	58	66		57	52
Iowa State	56	67	64		50	33
Kansas		43	56	55		43	44
Kansas State	37	66	48		22	46
Misouri		60	54	55		56	47
Nebraska	39	64	50		30	65
Oklahoma	47	46	42		46	53
Okla State	28	30	44		31	37

Pacific 10

Arizona		50	54	49		53	57
Arizona St.	40	52	45		24	30
California	62	61	77		57	44
Oregon		57	66	54		60	63
Oregon St.	49	47	52		52	70
USC		53	69	66		60	71
Stanford	89	86	92		84	79
UCLA		58	60	74		55	42
Washington	56	61	63		35	54
Wash. State	53	49	55		38	50

Misc. School (my pick...)

UMASS		63	73	66		69	65
Temple		56	57	43		24	39
Notre Dame	87	84	94		92	82
Louisville	41	54	31		24	48
Alabama		39	57	55		29	54
Auburn		39	46	39		38	29
Florida		48	52	61		47	60
Texas		39	53	63		28	57


There are 287 schools = I'm not entering all of them.

Best Division 1 schools - Grad Rates Sutdent Athletes entering 86/87

Manhattan		100%
St. Mary's (CAL)	100%
San Francisco		100%
Bucknell		97
Georgetown		95
Boston College		94
LaSalle			94
Holy Cross		93
Providence		93
St. Louis		92
Dayton			90
Duke			89
Lehigh			89
St. Joseph's (PA)	88
Virginia		88
Stanford		86
William and Mary	85
Colgate			84
Notre Dame		84
Fordham			84

The Best Division 1-A Football 
(Only Schools with 10 or more recruits listed)
Same criteria as above.

Boston College		100%
Texas Christian		100
Duke			90
Vanderbilt		89
Rice			82
Notre Dame		82
Wisconsin		81
Michigan		80
Virginia		80
Stanford		80
Penn State		78
West Virginia		76
Illinois 		75
Hawaii			73


The Worst 5 Div. 1 schools - graduating student athletes
Same years as above

Coppin State		0
Alcorn State		7
Houston			20
New Orleans		21
Alabama State 		22

    
    
    It would be interesting to look at the above rates in concert with how
    difficult the entrance requirements and performance standards are in
    some of these institutions. 
    
     

With all of the publications hitting the street now, does anyone have
a Syracuse football schedule ?  If so, would you please post it in
here.


thanks,
Joe

    Robert Morris College here in Pittsburgh has taken on the task of
    developing a division I-AA football team and they named their head
    coach over the weekend, and it's none other than
    
    
    
    JOE "BOOGER" WALTON  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                                                                  
    
    Guess JoJ would enroll there if'n he could, eh?
    
    JaKe
    

    OK, it's August and I wanted to post this in here before the obligatory
    anti-ND hot-sellin' crapola hits the fan(s).
    
    According to wire sources,
    Rutgers quarterback Bryan Fortay is charging that his old school, the
    University of Miami, hurt his chances for a pro career by not making
    him the starting quarterback. Miami didn't keep a promise to make
    Fortay a starter, and didn't properly supervise an academic adviser who
    involved Fortay and teammates in a Pell Grant scandal. according to the
    lawsuit, filed last week in a US District Court in Newark, NJ.
    
    HAHAHA. Now far be it from me to defend Miami, but this nitwit has got
    to be kidding if he thinks he can provide a smoking gun against SI's
    dahlins, the Canes. Agreed that the Pell Grant stuff reeked, but
    all we need is mo' lawyers drawing up fine language contracts with
    athletic recruits and universities. As much as I disrespected Miami's
    overall ethics, even I gots to say... BS!
    
    MikeL
    

    Heard a blurb on the radio that Pat Dye got his ol' Auburn Tigers
    two years in the sinbin. Any further details ( no TV, bowl games,
    loss of scholarships??)
    
    Now they's in the same boat as their BBall program, the Titanic.
    
    MikeL
    

>    Heard a blurb on the radio that Pat Dye got his ol' Auburn Tigers
>    two years in the sinbin. Any further details ( no TV, bowl games,
>    loss of scholarships??)
>    
>    Now they's in the same boat as their BBall program, the Titanic.
    
heh, heh, heh....


Roll Tide!


'Saw


PS there used to be a dude in here who was a big Auburn fan, can't remember
   his name, but he's not with DEC any more.  I used to love to joust with
   him a little.....    

    > Roll Tide
    
    This might not be a great time for 'Bama fans to start gloating,
    seeing's how their own athletic department is currently under
    investigation.  The NC2A just completed the on-sight work.  No idea 
    on when The Report will be out.
    
    Auburn, which already has its basketball and tennis programs on
    probation, narrowly avoided The Death Penalty.  If the date that the
    hoops team began its probation were slightly different, Auburn football
    would be toast.
    
    As is, they got off quite lightly, mainly because the Prez stepped in
    and cleaned house.  (New AD; New coach.  Da NCAA likes this kindof
    thing.)  The sanctions include:
    
    o No bowl games for two (2) years.  (Like they were gonna go
      anyway.)
    
    o Ineligible for SEC champeenship.  (See parenthetical comment from
      above.)
    
    o Slight reduction in number of available scholarships. (Big deal.)
    
    o No TV either this year or next year - Auburns choice.  (This one will
      hurt.  Auburn hasn't decided yet which year they'll choose.)
    
    Auburn's Atheltic Department is already in bad shape financially, the
    result of some stadium upgrades, legal costs involved in the NCAA
    investigation ($750K), and the loss of_a Title IX suit.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

Like I said, Roll Tide....8^)


'Saw


PS  I'd hate to see Auburn become "toast" because the rivalry is very
    big.  From what I hear it's almost like the Super Bowl down there....

Their tennis team was cheating?

Aye carumba....

 College sports are out of control. 

Metz

USA Today/CNN Coaches Poll:

	 1. Florida St		11. Washington
	 2. Albama		12. Florida
	 3. Michigan		13. Georgia
	 4. Miami-Fl		14. Penn St
	 5. Texas A&M		15. Stanford
	 6. Notre Dame		16. Arizona
	 7. Syracuse		17. Ohio St
	 8. Nebraska		18. Southern Cal
	 9. Tennessee		19. No Carolina
	10. Colorado		20. Clemson
				21. Oklahoma
				22. BYU
				23. NC State
				24. Boston College
				25. Mississippi St

    ASU should be in the top 20 by late October.  BTW - another Danny White 
    will QB Arizona this year (the original went to ASU).

    #6!! #6
    
    What do these here coaches know anyhoo?? #6?? Hail, if they called
    me I coulda told 'em no way jose, #11 or #12 maybe.
    
    Who do these coaches thunk gonna do it fer the Irish this year,
    the equipment managers?
    
    I gotta consult wif Lou. He's probly practicin' his triple axle
    camel-back, double-reverse yarn right now! How I do admire that
    man.
    
    
    MikeL
    
    
    

MikeL,

I saw the CNN show when this was announced. Concerning Notre Dame, the
guy said the with the Irish is not so much a case of rebuilding but
reloading.

I think ND's a little overrated but since the preseason ratings are
mostly a crap shoot think they should be in the Top 10, along with Miami,
merely because of past history.

If you look at the list, there's not a whole lot of schools up there that
we ain't heard of.

BTW, the Danny White that Mike mentioned is a transfer from another
football factory, Penn St. 

Also, mentioned on CNN, the preseason hype seems to be already in gear.
They touted Charlie Ward, QB from Florida St, Tyrone Wheatley from
Michigan, and Marvin Graves, QB from Syracuse, as the early front
runners.

TTom

    
>>I think ND's a little overrated but since the preseason ratings are
    
    Speaking of Notre Dame, I saw this piece on late night TV about a new
    defensive back they have, who intercepted an average of 43
    passes/season whilst in high school.  the kid, whose name escapes me at
    this point, claims to know what's going to happen each play, thru ESP,
    or just seeing the play in his haid before it happens, enableing him to
    be "in the way" of the passes, most ofthe time.
    
    Lou Holtz says that, even though he's a freshman, he will be starting
    in the backfield, but won't play cornerback, or and of the safety
    positions.  He said that being that he gets a feeling where the play
    will go thru ESP or clairvoyance, he'll just have him play as
    
    the Hunchback of Notre Dame.
    
    
    
    JaKe
    

Roll Tide!

    Problems out in Seattle too... Don James quit...
    

    The PAC10 levied the following penalties on the U of W football
    program:
    
    2 Year exclusion from post-season bowl games.
    1 Year loss of TV revenue ($1.4M estimate).
    Halving of scholarships for two years.
    Reduction in paid visits by recruits.
    Alumni restrictions.
    
    Don James resigned in protest.  No coach or anyone associated with
    the University was found to be involved with, in anyway, with the
    infractions.
    
    Are the penalties in line with the infractions?  Should the PAC10
    conduct its own investigations, instead of the NCAA?  Should James
    have resigned?
    
    

    
    So the consnsus #1 vFSU goes up agin Kansas in the Foosball Classic
    Methinks the 'Noles will roll, unless a_course the athaletes have
    been distracted looking fer girlfriend's to do their upcoming
    homwork ala Casey Welcon and Amp Lee.
    
    FSU 35  KU 17
    
    And can blowhard Johnny Robinson lead Troy back into the limelight
    agin the underachieving Tarheel gridsters. Won't happen overnight
    but
    
    USC 24   UNC 10
    
    MikeL
    

    He's BAAACK!
    
    The new college football season has arrived and so have I!  I have
    been the top service in the country the last 3 years as voted
    on by Sports Monitor Inc. (Mama McKay CEO).  I have won an
    incredible 29 weeks in a row. YES 29 WEEKS IN A ROW.  In the
    tradition of I.M. Jimbo this year we will keep a tally of points
    hoping to accumulate enough to spend the winter in the tropics.
    
    Game 1 - Fl St vs. Kansas
    Take KANSAS with the 27/28 points against the media darling FLORIDA ST.
    No way is this game a blowout.  Look for a game in the 20's with 
    Florida State winning by a touchdown.  Kansas is a good defensive 
    team that will hang with the mighty Floridians.  330 points
    
    Game 2 - USC vs. UNC
    Again I like the dog.  Take UNC with the 8.5.  I think they will
    keep it close in a boring contest.  220 points
    
    I.M.

    Who do you take in the Rebels-Buggs showdown?
    I'd buy a ticket to watch, but I want to be within 30 sections
    in the stadium...

    re I.M. Jimbo
    
    thanks for releasing your losers early..I know Fla St is a LOCK now.
    Theres only 3 things in life you must do they are die,pay taxes and go
    the other way when you speak.
    
    
    Tom

    Inexplicably the UNC @ USC game will NOT be shown in the Atlanta area.
    There's mucho griping taking place on SportsRadio, but three (3) local
    networks all turned it down.
    
    :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris

Hey Knorr, come on up to NC and watch it! I can't believe no one is
showing this cause it's the basic football kickoff game.

I like the Heels in this one. I expect a close game so you gotta like the
points. And I'm going with the ACC on the other and guessing Florida St.
Check out the first quarter score. If'n the Noles have already scored and
Kansas hasn't watch out. That 56 to zip may come true. The only reason
the spread is this close is because Florida St has a tendency to choke
the first game or 2 of the season. If this was being played in week 5 or
so, it'd be in the 30s. Kansas has lost most of its firepower on offense
including the QB that made it all work.

TTom

    1. Florida State
    2. Alabama
    3. Michigan
    4. Miami
    5. Texas A&M
    6. Notre Dame
    7. Syracuse
    8. Nebraska
    9. Tennessee 
    10. Colorado
    11. Washington 
    12. Florida
    13. Georgia
    14. Penn State
    15. Stanford
    16. Arizona
    17. Ohio State
    18. Southern California
    19. North Carolina 
    20. Clemson
    21. Oklahoma
    22. Brigham Young
    23. North Carolina State
    24. Boston College 
    25. Mississippi State 

Which is this? The immoral AP or the highly honorable coaches poll? 

Do coaches of teams on probation get to vote in the highly honorable
coaches poll?

TTom

    This was from the UPI news feed but is dated 8/20.

    
    BC over Miami?
    

    What a return to Pitt it was fer Johnny Majors lasted night.
    
    Beating the 10 point favored Southern Mississippi, 14-10 was a nice
    welcome back fer him.
    
    Proves that he's still a good game day strategist.
    
    Defense played GREAT.
    
    Offense sputtered, blew many opportunities, should have won by 25
    points instead of 4.  They DID benefit by a bad call or two, though.
    
    Lessee if they win anymore this year.  In his first first year at Pitt,
    they tied Georgia 7-7 in the first game of the season, then went on to
    lose all fo the games for the rest of the season.  3 years later, they
    won the national championship.
    
    Go Pitt!!
    
    JaKe
    

	Thanks for the update, JaKe.  I looked all through this weekend's
	paper and couldn't find anything on the Panthers.

	Hopefully Majors will turn the program around (again).


	billl

Roll Tide!

    Washington will pound the slow moving, 70 era, Buckeyes.
    
    Unlike last week versus Stanford, top running back Beno Bryant will
    play. 
    
    The team is on a mission- the top ranking. 
    

    
    re: top ranking
    
    That happened once to a team on probation. In 1974 or 1975 Oklahoma was
    on probation and got the top ranking in the writers poll. coaches poll
    did not include teams that were on probation.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    the Buckeyes have an ex-Drood and local boy at starting QB.

	While channel surfing last night I caught a few minutes of the 
	East Carolina - Syracuse game.   Just in time to see a real tooth-
	rattler of a hit.  A linebacker from Syracuse, #48 Jerry <mumble>
	who happens to be a red-shirt freshman, put a lick on a back from
	East Carolina that must have even made the kid's hair hurt!

	I think his last name was Shaw, or something like that.  If he can
	maintain that kind of intensity, without killing himself, he might
	be one to keep an eye on.


	billl

    Yabbut billl, you were right about the surfing.  Tee vee really
    inhaled big time so I did the same thang.
    
    Despite the announcers gushing all over him, I was impressed with the
    freshman QB at East Carolina.  For a freshman, playing in their firsted
    game of the season, he looked like he's got real talent.
    
    Of course, sincer I could only catch a few plays here and a few plays
    there, my POPB is based on some limited data.
    
    All in all, the game was farley enjoyable!
    
    I remain,
    not too tired from staying up that late!
    Kev
    

While the QBs - Marvin Graves for Syracuse and Redshirt Freshman Marcus
Crandell of ECU - looked good, the players that I was most impressed with
was the Pirate Tight End, Crumpler, and their running back Jr. Smith.
Crumpler consistently beat his man in blocking and looked good going down
the field in pass patterns. Smith ran for 164 yards against what was
supposed to be a pretty good defense.

And of course you gotta like anyone called Kirby Dar Dar.

TTom

>                                 -< Bret Powers >-    
    
>    the Buckeyes have an ex-Drood and local boy at starting QB.
    
    A whiney, quitter, Timmmm Rosenbach-like wimp QB.  Too bad Hoot isn't
    around, even he would be embarassed to have a QB like Powers on his
    team (and look at wehat the Raiders have had lately).
    
    
    brews

Watched a lot o' football on Saturday, while puttering around the house.


	o Regardless of what anyone says, ND looked damn good against
	  Michigan.

	o The place kicker for Penn State should try a different job.
	  Like maybe short order cook.

	o Dick Butkus' son may not play like Dick but he's got a
	  great haircut.

	o That "Big Daddy" feel on the Ohio State defensive line is
	  a load and a half.

	o Could FSU have kicked Clemson's ass any harder?

	o Roll Tide!


'Saw
	

|    >> o Regardless of what anyone says, ND looked damn good against
|    >>   Michigan.
|
|         Who's saying that they didn't look good against Michigan?
|         Mike Leary?

No, I should have said "what anyone MIGHT say".


The QB of theirs can really motor, and the punt return for the TD was
sweet.....


I don't think MikeL would succomb to that "oh me, oh my, we have no talent"
whine, but Lou might....8^)


'Saw

	

>	o Could FSU have kicked Clemson's ass any harder?

Clemson almost scored twice. The first was when they got first and goal
on the 7 and couldn't punch it in.

The second was on the blocked extra point attempt where the guy almost
ran it back for 2.

That was about it for Clemson. Too much Charlie Ward, too much Bobby
Bowden and way too much speed for the Noles.

TTom

>The second was on the blocked extra point attempt where the guy almost
>ran it back for 2.

Saw that.  It looked like a cool play.....

>That was about it for Clemson. Too much Charlie Ward, too much Bobby
>Bowden and way too much speed for the Noles.

Yeah, I couldn't believe some of the plays I saw on the highlights.


'Bama has a nice option play for a TD too, in their game.....


'Saw

    The amazing thing on the blocked extra point was that it was the FSU 
    kicker, the freshman who was on the cover of SI and is supposed to
    guarantee them the national championship, who ran down the CB from
    behind to make the tackle and preserve the shutout.  The kid is a real
    athlete - too bad he's been a rotten kicker so far!
    
    NAZZ

Bama looked a notch - or several - below Florida St on Saturday.

Vanderbilt might be somewhat better than expected but the Tide added them
to the list of win but did-not-cover. They really only had a couple of
drives. One of the passes to Palmer was from a running back. Also, they
had a FG attempt block late.

But, I've learned to not undervalue Bama as long as they continue
undefeated.

TTom

The poop on Bama is that they win but never cover.

I agree, as long as they keep winning, I ain't complaining....8^)


'Saw

    ND's quarterback reminds me of Randall Cunningham.

Nazz,

The guy's name is Bentley and he's supposed to be a phenomenal athlete.
Supposedly, he was penciled into going to Notre Dame but he talked the
powers that be into letting him go to Florida St.

TTom

    Yea,
    Bentley is the real deal according to the pundits and coaches.
    Ask the Colraddy contingent, the kid cain kick and is a_athalete.
    
    And Nd soitanly coveted the lad, but he felt FSU was the best
    environment for him. I guess he felt real comfortable at FSU
    and kinda uncomfy during recruiting visit to ND. Plus he had
    a couple of unflattering things to say about Holtz in the mag.
    (Sigh, yet another detractor!). 
    
    I wish him luck, sometimes your initial "feel" is correct.
    
    
    Now, about McDougal the ND QB. Actually he was not an option
    QB in high school, but passed quite a bit.  He can run with
    the ball obviously but I was more impressed with his passing
    acumen. His style is similar vto Mirer's and not Tony Rice (mostly
    option).
    
    MikeL
    

	Regarding Alabama not covering:

	They ended the game with the ball inside the Vandy 1.  They could
	have covered if Gene Stallings played that way.

>	They ended the game with the ball inside the Vandy 1.  They could
>	have covered if Gene Stallings played that way.

They almost "accidently" scored anyway. On the last play, the ball almost
landed in the end zone. I agree that Stallings has absolutely no concern
for the spread. However, I'm sure he woulda rather beat em up better than
they did. 

Early Saturday was fun if'n you're into watching Heisman Hopefuls.
Michigan, with Tryone Wheatley (sp?), Alabama with David Palmer, and
Florida St with Charlie Ward were all profiled in the early games. 

TTom

    Marvin Graves was on ESPN on Thursday.

    Johny Majors' "homecoming" to Pittsburgh was not pretty.
    
    Beat by Va. Tech 63-21.
    
    Yuuuuuuuck
    
    JaKe
    

        UPI Top 25 college football ratings, with first-place votes
and records in parentheses, total points (based on 25 points for first
place, 24 for second, etc.) and last week's rating.

 1. Florida State (13) (3-0)  349  1
 2. Alabama (1) (2-0)         327  2
 3. Notre Dame (2-0)          302  9
 4. Miami (1-0)               288  4
 5. Tennessee (2-0)           279 10
 6. Syracuse (2-0)            273  6
 7. Nebraska (2-0)            266  6
 8. Michigan (1-1)            258  3
 9. Colorado (2-0)            238 11
10. Florida (2-0)             224  8
11. Ohio State (2-0)          212 15
12. Oklahoma (2-0)            193 16
13. North Carolina (3-0)      190 14
14. Penn State (2-0)          184 12
15. Arizona (2-0)             174 13
16. Texas A&M (1-1)           139  5
17. North Carolina St. (2-0)  125 17
18. Brigham Young (2-0)        99 18
19. Stanford (1-1)             63 23
20. Virginia (2-0)             45 25
21. California (2-0)           44 NR
22. Iowa (2-0)                 36 NR
23. Arizona State (1-0)        35 NR
24. (tie) Wisconsin (2-0)      34 NR
24. (tie) Southern Cal (1-2)   34 21

NR - not ranked

        Others receiving votes: Arkansas, Baylor, Boston College, Clemson,
Fresno State, Georgia Tech, Kansas, Louisville, Memphis State, Michigan
State, Mississippi, Rutgers, South Carolina, Virginia Tech, West Virginia.
        The UPI ratings panel consists of 16 members selected among
representatives of NCAA-sanctioned bowl games.
        Note: Teams barred from television appearances or postseason
play are not eligible for Top 25 and national championship consideration
by the UPI ratings panel. Ineligible this season are Auburn and Washington.

	Typical con job by the Holtz/Notre Dame HypeMachine.  They got 
High School All Amreica talent coming out the wazoo, yet pull the MorT poor 
mouth job when they're ranked in the TopTen.  Then when the talent wins out 
in Michigan the MuscleBoys carry off the GoldenMidget triumphantly on their 
shoulders as if his coaching had something to do with the win.  HAHAHAHAHA�
Once again ND is LOADED and should challenge for a title.

				/Don

And the media laps it up and jumps them all the way up to #3

Metz

Say what you like about Holtz - and I like what you're saying there /er -
but they do play a mean schedule.

They're at Michigan, Stanford and BYU and host Southern Cal, Boston
College and Florida St. All have or are currently in the Top 25. Even
with Navy and Northwestern, this ain't no Nebraska schedule.

TTom

    
    Wanna see a cake schedule?  Look at UA.  I think they get USC and
    Stanford at home, and no UW.  They opened with UTEP and UOP at home. 
    That's the kind of schedule despite their poor play early this year)
    that nathional championships are made of.
    
    brews

    HAHAHAHAHA Slasher, twist away, dat's rollward.
    
    Not edumacate me, me main. Just what did you see in the Northwestern
    ND game that would enable you to think that ND was "loaded". NADA.
    However, it sure seemsd they have a damn good team, surprising (honest)
    to me after witnessing the Northwestern game.
    
    Either Lou and the boys pulled a massive con job on us all (doubtful),
    or the team pulled together as heavy dogs and took it to Michigan.
    Holtz had a dadgum good gameplan vs the Wolverines andf the players
    performed.
    
    Now that they've been placed up at #3, we'll see what they're made of
    now that they will be favs in mosted games.
    
    But congrats to the Irish AND Lou. Well done.
    
    MikeL
    
    

�    Not edumacate me, me main. Just what did you see in the Northwestern
�    ND game that would enable you to think that ND was "loaded". NADA.

	That's easy Mike.  In the Northwestern game the players listened to 
Holtz, in the Michigan game they didn't.  You could clearly see the cotton 
through the earholes of lots of the Notre Dame players on Saturday.

				/Don

I don't know about Bill Walsh but Stanford is having a hard time with the
likes of San Jose St. They had best improved dramatically if'n they want
to take advantage of any coaching edge they might have.

TTom

    
    	Good lawd Tommy, if you yank any harder you'll break MikeL's
    	chain.
    
    Claybone

The problem with evaluating a team's strength of schedule is that for
almost all of the teams, they're locked into some number of conference
games. Certainly every conference has its weak sisters. So it's helpful
to look at the other opponents.

 1. Florida St		Kansas, Miami*, ND*, Florida*
 2. Alabama		Tulane, La Tech, Southern Miss
 3. Notre Dame@		Michigan*, Stanford*, BYU*, Florida St*
 4. Miami-FL		Colorado*, Ga. Southern, Florida St*
 5. Tennessee		La Tech, Duke, Louisville
 6. Syracuse		Ball St, East Carolina, Texas, Cincinnati
 7. Nebraska		No. Texas, Texas Tech, UCLA
 8. Michigan		Washington St, ND*, Houston
 9. Colorado		Texas, Baylor, Stanford*, Miami*
10. Florida		Arkansas St, SW Louisiana, Florida St*
11. Ohio St		Rice, Washington#, Pittsburgh
12. Oklahoma		TCU, Texas A&M*, Tulsa, Texas
13. No Carolina		Southern Cal*, Ohio, UTEP, Tulane
14. Penn St		Southern Cal*, Rutgers, Maryland
15. Arizona		UTEP, Pacific, Illinois
16. Texas A&M		LSU, Oklahoma*, Missouri, Louisville
17. NC State		Purdue, Texas Tech, Marshall
18. BYU			UCLA, ND*, Fresno St
19. Stanford		San Jose St, Colorado*, ND*
20. Virginia		Navy, Ohio, Va Tech
21. California		San Diego St, Temple, San Jose St, Hawaii
22. Iowa		Tulsa, Iowa St, No. Illinois
23. Arizona St		Utah, Louisville, Oklahoma St
24. Wisconsin		Nevada, SMU, Iowa St
24. Southern Cal	No Carolina*, Houston, Penn St*, ND*

	Codes:
	* - UPI Top 25 team
	@ - I've listed ND's Top 25 opponents
	# - Washington is No. 18 in the AP Poll

    Funny how ASU went up to 23 without playing a game last week.

    I'm back...
    
    While I was away I was an outstanding 11-1, but was unable to get to 
    a terminal to type those winners in!
    
    Tally for the season is 1-1, with the followers all down 130 big ones.
    
    BC game of the week.
    Take that scrappy NORTHWESTERN team with the 8 points.  They were
    pasted by BC last year but will hang with them this year. 110
    
    ND game of the week
    Coming off the big win the points look too good.  Take Mich St.
    to cover the 13 against the mighty McDougal led Irish.  110
    
    Lock of the week
    I just love UNC at home with the 18 against Fl. St.  The BIG Johnson
    and Johnson crew will stay within 2 touchdowns in a high scoring
    affair.  Charlie will throw his first INT this week.  220
    
    Total lock of the week
    Take the over 54 in the Nebraska/UCLA game. IS UCLA that bad to be a 
    double digit dog at HOME.  
    
    IM JIMBO  

>    ... Charlie will throw his first INT this week. 

Funny you should mention this. Against the Heels lasted year, Ward has
his worst game o' the season. He threw for a mere 80 some yards and had a
couple of INTs.

Jimbo, where you gettin those over/under numbers from?

TTom

    The over/under numbers for select college games are in the Boston
    Herald.  
    
    Jimbo

>    The over/under numbers for select college games are in the Boston
>   Herald.  

This obviously proves that the Boston media cover Nebraska football
better than the Los Angeles media cover the Braves.

TTom

Article: 6882
From: [email protected] (UPI)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.football
Subject: UPI College Football Rankings
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 93 15:35:57 PDT
 
                              ------
UPI Top 25 college football ratings, with firstplace votes and records
in parentheses, total points (based on 25 points for first place, 24
for second, etc.) and last week's ranking.
1. Florida Stt (13) (4-0)   373 1
2. Alabama (2) (3-0) 357 2
3. Miami (2-0) 340 4
4. Notre Dame (3-0)  337 3
5. Florida (3-0)  304 10
6. Nebraska (3-0) 280 7
7. Ohio State (3-0)  269 11
8. Michigan (1-1) 265 8
9. Penn State (3-0)  256 14
10. Oklahoma (2-0)  238 12
11. Syracuse (2-0-1) 215 6
12. Tennessee (2-1) 207 5
13. Texas A&M (2-1) 173 16
14. Arizona (3-0) 168 15
15. Colorado (2-1)  167 9
16. Stanford (2-1)  129 19
17. North Crln St. (2-0)     124 17
18. North Carolin (3-1)  116 13
19. Brigham Yng (3-0)   107 18
20. Wisconsin (3-0) 99 24
21. California (3-0)  97 21
22. Virginia (3-0) 96 20
23. Louisville (3-0)  51 NR
24. West Virginia (2-0)  20 NR
25. Indiana (3-0) 18 NR
NR - not ranked
        Others receiving votes: Arizona State, Baylor, Fresno State,
Hawaii, Iowa, Kansas State, Mississippi, Oregon, Rutgers, San Diego
State, South Carolina, Southern Cal, Virginia Tech, Washington State.
        The UPI ratings panel consists of 16 members selected among
representatives of NCAAsanctioned bowl games.
        Note: Teams barred from television appearances or postseason
play are not eligible for Top 25 and national championship consideration
by the UPI ratings panel. Ineligible this season are Auburn and Washington.

7. Ohio State (3-0)  269 11
8. Michigan (1-1) 265 8
9. Penn State (3-0)  256 14
20. Wisconsin (3-0) 99 24
25. Indiana (3-0) 18 NR
    
1. Florida Stt (13) (4-0)   373 1
17. North Crln St. (2-0)     124 17
18. North Carolin (3-1)  116 13
22. Virginia (3-0) 96 20
    
2. Alabama (2) (3-0) 357 2
5. Florida (3-0)  304 10
12. Tennessee (2-1) 207 5
    
3. Miami (2-0) 340 4
11. Syracuse (2-0-1) 215 6
24. West Virginia (2-0)  20 NR
    
6. Nebraska (3-0) 280 7
10. Oklahoma (2-0)  238 12
15. Colorado (2-1)  167 9
    
14. Arizona (3-0) 168 15
16. Stanford (2-1)  129 19
21. California (3-0)  97 21
    
13. Texas A&M (2-1) 173 16
    
19. Brigham Yng (3-0)   107 18
    
23. Louisville (3-0)  51 NR
    
4. Notre Dame (3-0)  337 3

    Louisville took ASU's place at #23.  They earned it.

AP Top 25

 1. Florida St (57)	1544
 2. Alabama (5)		1483
 3. Miami		1396
 4. Notre Dame		1374
 5. Florida		1299
 6. Nebraska		1170
 7. Ohio St		1137
 8. Michigan		1067
 9. Penn St		 986
10. Oklahoma		 974
11. Tennessee		 912
12. Syracuse		 904
13. Colorado		 732
14. Texas A&M		 688
15. Arizona		 680
16. Washington		 586
17. Stanford		 563
18. No Carolina		 480
19. NC State		 463
20. California		 375
21. Brigham Young	 360
22. Virginia		 279
23. Wisconsin		 238
24. Louisville		 235
25. Auburn		  63

    Gee,  Pitt sure is a power this year, ain't they??
    
    Lessee, win 14-10, lose 63-21, lose 63-28.
    
    It's so bad that Johnny Majors is advertising in the Pitt campus
    newspaper for walk ons who think they have any football ability at all.
    
    JaKe
    

	I knew someone would jump on this.  I figured some PSU smuck would
	be chiming in here.

	I don't know what the problem is with Pitt this year.  Last year was
	medicore at best.  With the return of Johnny Majors I was really 
	hoping for big things from this team this year.  

	The only BIG thing they are supplying is opponents' scores.

	From what I saw on the tube Saturday, the defense might as well not
	even showed up.  Everytime those "useless nuts" from OSU got the
	ball they marched in for a TD.


	billl

    Billl,
    
    Majors cain't git blood from a stone. Pitt's not been good at all
    for the last few and Gottfried did not recruit well. Also Majors
    got hired at Pitt late, and recruiting was halfway done.
    He needs time and his own players.
    
    MikeL
    

	Yeah, wait 'til next year.  That's the ticket!


	billl

    
    >>	I don't know what the problem is with Pitt this year.  Last year was
    >>	medicore at best.  With the return of Johnny Majors I was really 
    >>	hoping for big things from this team this year.  
    
    The biggest problem with Pitt this year is an almost total lack of even
    halfway decently talented players.
    
    Was reading a column by Majors just before the season started and he
    said that if they were to go 1-10, they'd have done good.  The
    recruiting weaknesses of Mike Gottfried and Paul hackett are finally
    showing up on the field.  It'll take about 3 years before Pitt fields a
    team capable of playing .500 ball in my opinion.  Majors, by name only,
    can attract some talent, but it'll take aggressive recruiting on his
    part to get some players in here who can help to turn this team around.
    
    JaKe
    

    Hey! No stealin' mah material!!
    
    8^)
    MikeL
    

    
   >><<< Note 13.111 by CTHQ::LEARY "Corporate Telecom Technology Solutions" >>>

   >> Hey! No stealin' mah material!!
    
    Actually, yer reply went in as mine was being written and I didn't get
    a chance to read yers till afterwards.
    
    Re my SAT's.  Guess I should go take them then, right, cause I ain't
    never taken them in my life.
    
    JaKe
    

    HAHA Jake,
    Don't take those SAT's yet JaKe. Jest apply to Miami and you
    should be gettin' a recruiting visit real soon.
    
    8^)
    MikeL
    

                                        
    >	I knew someone would jump on this.  I figured some PSU smuck would
    >	be chiming in here.
    
    You mean like your wife does at home, Billl?  ;-)
    
    I've got nothing against Pitt; I root for them whenever they're not
    playing Penn State.  I do think they've got a long road in front of
    them.  They've fallen so far that SI rated them one of the five worst
    teams in Division 1-A, which takes some doing with the likes of New
    Mexico St., etc., kicking around.  After the upset of So. Miss. I
    thought that assessment might have been way off the mark, but now I'm
    not so sure...
    
    Any updates from Pittsburgh on the proposed resumption of the Penn
    State series in 1995 or 1996?  Not to do so would be criminal, in my
    opinion, and I don't care what the Penn State party line on the matter 
    is these days.  In spite of the bellyaching from the likes of Syracuse 
    and Boston College in the Big East, the only one of them that mattered 
    to me (and the only team to hold up its end of the rivalries) was
    Pitt.
    
    glenn
        

I guess Penn St can figger out how to schedule Rutgers and Maryland but
not Pitt despite their Big 10 requirements.

I agree with the sentiment that if'n they're gonna play outside their
league, which they are going to do, they outta keep playing Pitt.

TTom

    
> I guess Penn St can figger out how to schedule Rutgers and Maryland but
> not Pitt despite their Big 10 requirements.
    
    I think somewhere around half of it was Pitt's adherence to the Big
    East's politics.  But over the long haul it's obviously mutually
    beneficial.  Especially to Pitt, which has a hard time selling out
    games in a small stadium in recent years...
    
    glenn
    

    Actually, it were Penn St. who "dropped" Pitt, but there was so much
    ballyhooing and rage over it, they WILL resume their yearly games in
    a few years, don't zactly know when.
    
    Re. the stadium.  Pitt Stadium cain hold in excess of 62,000, not
    exactly small, but not as big as some colleges.
    
    Pitt traditionally sells/sold out Penn State and Notre Dame games.  The
    last year I had season tickets, which was 1988 or 1989, they
    consistently had 45-50k showing up fer games.  I got free tickets
    lasted year and went and they had all of about 22000 people
    there(cain't remember who they played, but they won son it weren't
    anybody good) and that place, on a gray dingy rainy afternoon with
    22,000 in the stadium is more like a morgue than a football stadium. 
    Sorta fitting though, the way Pitt was playing lasted year andis
    playing this year.
    
    JaKe
    

I would think that whatever the politics of the Big East, it would
include Rutgers as well as Pitt. However, Penn St dropped W.Va. this year
as well.

But speaking of the Big East, I noticed that Miami doesn't play Florida
this year. What's the deal with that? I thought they were committed to
playing in the Florida "league" with Florida and Florida St for braggin
rights. Not true, evidently.

TTom

>>include Rutgers as well as Pitt. However, Penn St dropped W.Va. this year
>>as well.
    
    Wasn't that because Penn State wanted to drop the home-away format
    where they played in W.Va one year, and in Penn State the next, all fer
    the cause of playing in sold out Beaver Stadium and raking in the
    donero????
    
    JaKe
    

    
>>include Rutgers as well as Pitt. However, Penn St dropped W.Va. this year
>>as well.
 >   
 >   Wasn't that because Penn State wanted to drop the home-away format
 >   where they played in W.Va one year, and in Penn State the next, all fer
 >   the cause of playing in sold out Beaver Stadium and raking in the
 >   donero????
    
    Yes, that was the sleazy tactic also used against Syracuse, and the one
    thing about the parting of Penn State with the East that didn't sit
    well with me.  I prefer the Big Ten in any case, but there was no
    justification for those plans in a system that supposedly values
    "fairness" in competition...
    
    glenn
     

In the case of WVU, I think it's the Mountaineers who are glad to be
outta this series. WVU never has really stepped up to the top levels of
college football and getting drubbed each year by Paterna didn't help.

I think they should stick to teams like Va Tech which is a better
indicator of where they are which appears to be around the 25-30 slot in
the rankings.

Of course, WVU added Miami when it joined the Big East. Maybe the
rankings suffer less when you're blown out by Miami?

TTom

    Can you believe that they're actually going to allow the use of
    calculators on SAT's now?

>    Can you believe that they're actually going to allow the use of
>    calculators on SAT's now?

Sounds a little bit discrimatory, to me. I mean, the ability to purchase
a calculator obviously varies with economic status.

The whole SAT thang is a joke. The local public school system, which is
also considered a joke by many, got a lot of heat for having very low SAT
scores. Something like 49th. So they went on a big kick to improve the
scores so they went out and hired consultants who are now teaching the
kids how to take SATs. The scores are going up but no one is claiming any
improvement in the overall school system that can be attributed to this.

TTom

    I could understand it if they are going to make the math section more
    difficult.

    WHAP BAM ZAP KAPOW
    
    We took our lumps last week.  A very UNspectacular 1-3 and a -340 for 
    the slumping IM.  Our legion of followers now consists of relatives
    and a few close friends.  We're not totally out of it yet as MTV called
    and I will be a judge on Lip Service next week along with Jerry Cooney
    and Traci Lords!  Total for the year is now 2-4, 470 in the hole.
    Vacation plans have been put on hold!
    
    Not too many interesting games out there this week, a lot of 20+
    spreads.  Nebraska and BC should roll but I won't touch them since
    they both played poorly last week.
    
    I will go with Miami and give the 2 at Colorado.  CU's defense is
    going to have to improve in a week and I can't see it happening.  220
    
    Lock of the week or KOD for Knorr
    I'm going with Tar Heels to kick some Wolfpack butt.  The game is a 
    pick'em but it won't even be close.  330
    
    Total of the week
    Take the OVER 44 in the Miami/Colorado game.  Game will be in the 60's
    220
    
    IM JIMBO

>    Lock of the week or KOD for Knorr
>    I'm going with Tar Heels to kick some Wolfpack butt.  The game is a 
>    pick'em but it won't even be close.  330

Thank you, Jimbo.

Actually, there's a rumor that the Heels are gonna pull a major no show
for this game. As I understand it, they've already written the Sunday
article explaining why the Heels didn't win.

TTom

    	Hey Jimbo, take ND.  They're a mortal lock unless Holtz overcoaches
    his awesome talent.
    
    				/Don

    Speaking of ND, I was watching either a pre game or ESPN show when
    one of the guys comes out and says McDougal will win the Heisman....
    
    I wish I could remember who it was.....any help out there?
    
    Jimbo

I think this was Beano cook. They interview him for his opinion on who
the top 5 teams are and I think I heard him say this. Something to the
effect that the guy who'll win the Heisman wasn't even mentioned in
pre-season.

Actually the guy starting to get some votes is the linebacker from
Florida St, Derrick Brooks.

TTom

    UPI:			AP:
 1. Florida St			Florida St
 2. Alabama			Alabama
 3. Miami-FL			Miami-FL
 4. Notre Dame			Notre Dame
 5. Florida			Florida
 6. Nebraska			Nebraska
 7. Ohio St			Ohio St
 8. Michigan			Michigan
 9. Penn St			Penn St
10. Oklahoma			Oklahoma
11. Tennessee			Tennessee
12. Arizona			Arizona
13. Syracuse			Syracuse
14. Texas A&M			Texas A&M
15. No Carolina			Washington
16. California			No Carolina
17. Virginia			California
18. BYU				Louisville
19. Wisconsin			Colorado
20. Colorado			BYU
21. Louisville			Virginia
22. West Virginia		Wisconsin
23. NC State			Auburn
24. Mississippi			NC State
25. Stanford			West Virginia

    Well it's about time!  It hurts so good!!!
    
    Last week we ONLY went 3-0 as Miami whipped Colorado and the game
    was in the 60's.  Call me Carnac...."Carnac".  We also correctly had
    UNC destroying the baby wolfpack.  Totals for the week were 3-0 adding
    700 to our coffers.  Total for the season has the growing growing crowd
    of followers 5-4 and more importantly +230.
    
    I usually wait until Friday to give away my selections but I just
    couldn't pass up the travesty I saw in today's paper.  
    
    Thursday night lock of the month
    Take those UCLA Bruins and give the paltry 6 to Marshall Faulk's
    San Siego State team.  This one is over at halftime.  Hard to believe
    UCLA still isn't getting respect with the number, but who am I to
    complain about a gift.  I'll risk 300 on the game.
    
    IM JIMBO

    ARMY/NAVY GAMES
    
    Trivia for my son's homework...
    
    How many times has ARMY  won since 1962?
    
    Who won in 1973?
    
    Thanks for the help.
    
    Rich

>    Thursday night lock of the month
>    Take those UCLA Bruins and give the paltry 6 to Marshall Faulk's

Good Call Jimbo (IM, UR or otherwise).

FWIW, the line on this one dropped at the last minute when a couple of
running backs and a_offensive lineman were declared out due to injuries.
'Tweren't needed as the Bruins D stopped Marshall Faulk.

The brightest parts of this game were the wide outs for each team. Both
caught passes for 150+ yards. Neither D could stop them.

TTom

    I'd say it's safe to say we're on a roll! 
    
    Last nights game was a gift EXACTLY as I called it.  A blowout
    over by halftime adding 300 to our coffee can.  Total for the year
    is now 6-4 +530.  The supporters have been calling all day anxiously
    awaiting my picks for the weekend.  Your wait is over, you'll
    bury your man this weekend!  
    
    Some interesting tilts this weekend.  There are some nice 17 point dogs
    out there in Miss St and Maryland, but I'll stick with the sure things
    below!!!
    
    Big East game of the week
    Not real happy with the line moves in this game, started at 9 1/2 and
    is now 7 1/2.  I'm going to stick with my original thought and
    take BC and the 7 1/2.  I hate to touch it but it's in the blood. 50
    
    TV game of the week
    Holtz finally puts to rest all of the Walsh this Walsh that crap from
    last year.  ND romps easily in this one. 110  
    
    HEISER TOTAL of the week        
    I like the over 31 in the Arizona/USC game.  Nobody's defense is that
    good.  I'll guess the game will be in the high 40's. 110
    
    LOCK OF THE WEEK
    You just have to love Texas at home giving 3 1/2 to Rice.  I can't
    ever remember Texas not being a 2 touchdown favorite at home vs Rice.
    This one is over after 3 quarters. 330
    
    IM JIMBO
    

>    HEISER TOTAL of the week        
>    I like the over 31 in the Arizona/USC game.  Nobody's defense is that
>    good.  I'll guess the game will be in the high 40's. 110
    
    That's not polite to associate me with the hated rival.  

Stat o' the week:

BC has never won at the Dome. I think the record is oh-fer-6.

TTom

    I figured AU, ASU same thing 8*)
    
    Jimbo

    BC wins 33-29 at Syacuse.....
    
    REK

    
    I believe this breaks an incredible string by Syracuse.  Until this
    game, when they scored 29 points, they had NEVER lost a game in the
    history of the school.
    
    Marc
    

USA Today/CNN Top 25 and next opponent:

 1. Florida St		vs	Miami-FL
 2. Alabama		bye
 3. Miami-FL		at	Florida St
 3. Notre Dame		vs	Pittsburgh
 5. Nebraska		at	Oklahoma St
 6. Florida		at	LSU
 7. Ohio St		at	Illinois
 8. Penn St		bye
 9. Oklahoma		at	Texas (Dallas)
10. Michigan		at	Michigan St
11. Arizona		bye
12. Tennessee		at	Arkansas
13. Texas A&M		vs	Houston
14. California		vs	Washington
15. No Carolina		vs	Wake Forest
16. Virginia		bye
17. Louisville		at	West Virginia
18. BYU			at	UCLA
19. Wisconsin		vs	Northwestern
20. West Virginia	vs	Louisville
21. Colorado		vs	Missouri
22. Syracuse		bye
23. Fresno St		at	Colorado St
24. Clemson		at	Duke
25. Indiana		vs	Iowa

>> 3. Notre Dame		vs	Pittsburgh

	I hope Pitt is prepared for another sound thrashing.  It's been a
	while since a Pitt football team has eminated such a melodious odor.

	billl

    billl,
    I'll make sure I post the Louisms for this game.
    
    MikeL
    

    
    Why bother?  It's not like EVERYONE of us in here don't know what they
    will be.
    
    

    OK,
    start a contest. Winner gets a copy of Lou and family's videotape
    of "American Family Life".
    
    MikeL
    

Best College Team in Pittsburgh!
A lot better than their record.
... present problems for our [offense/defense/special teams]
Have to win for recruiting
Can't afford to let up, take lighly, look past, etc.

TTom

    
    - PittsburgH's airport is one of the toughest to safely land at in the
    country.
    
    - Last time we were there, the maids short-sheeted us.
    
    - Did you see what Johnny MAjors did at Tennesee?
    
    - Shortage of good bus drivers to get us to the game on tie.
    
    - Shoulder pad straps are causing a severe chafing problem throughout
    the team.
    
    

    HAHA brews,
    
    I'll use reasons #3 and 5 thised year.
    ND plays Pitt at home this year, so's I'll save reasons 1, 2 and 4
    pass them along to Lou for next year!
    
    TTom,
    You ben cheatin'?? Think Lou already said them reasons right after
    the Stanfuhd game. HAHA
    
    MikeL
    

    	I think Lou Holtz should be commended for taking a ragtag bunch of
    accountants and slide rule carriers and putting a big hurt on the
    megastudded athletes of Stanford.  Congrats Lou!
    
    				/Don

    Well, here's a fine how do you do for us Boston-area college football
    fans.
    
    The local ABC affiliate, Channel 5 will carry the BC-Rutgers game
    at noon instead of the FSU-Miami game. No other Boston station
    picvked it up. And since it's not a regional game, tis national,\
    no PPV option. So we gots to watch it on Channel 12 in Providence
    or Channel 9 in Manchester, NH, neither of which is on me cable.
    Have to drag out the B/W and peek between the hazy lines. DAMN....
    
    MikeL
    

�                                  -< Idjits >-
�
�    Well, here's a fine how do you do for us Boston-area college football
�    fans.
�    
�    The local ABC affiliate, Channel 5 will carry the BC-Rutgers game
�    at noon instead of the FSU-Miami game. 
    
    Last time I checked, BC was a Boston-area college football team.
    
    Everybody in the world carries ND games, so quit your whining already.

    My complaint is there is no alternative to be able to get the
    FSU-Miami game somewhere in the Boston vicinity.
    
    This has nothing to do with BC or ND.
    
    Are you implying I should be happy that my only alternatives are
    BC-Rutgers and ND-Pitt??  What's yer point?
    
    If so, I'll be at your house at 11:30 to watch the FSU-Miami game.
    Living near Woostah, you must be able to pick up Channel 9.
    
    MikeL
    

�               -< I'll take Spanish Peaks Black Dog Ale, please >-
    
    Would you settle for Big Mac's Hoppy Labor Day IPA, or Big Mac's Leaky
    Peachy Ale instead?
    
�    Are you implying I should be happy that my only alternatives are
�    BC-Rutgers and ND-Pitt??  
    
    Yah!  Back in the old days you'd have had to go to a game in person or
    be trying to pull in the game on your old tube radio.
    
�    If so, I'll be at your house at 11:30 to watch the FSU-Miami game.
�    Living near Woostah, you must be able to pick up Channel 9.
    
    I do get Channel 9 on the portable TV upstairs.  Unfortunately I won't
    be home.  I'm reffing the WPI/Framingham State rugby game at 11, and
    from there I'll be going over to the Worcester/Newport matches and
    playing in one of them.

    Mac Homebrew??
    
    Loves it. Just finished mah MikeL Australian Cooper Lager, gonna
    bottle me Irish Stout, then plan me IPA and English Bitter.!!
    
    Yowsa!!
    
    

	MikeL,  You sure about channel 9 on Saturday?  That station usually
	carries the UNH game.  That is unless UNH is not playing this week.

	Just don't want you to break into Mac's house fer nuttin'


	billl

    
    FSU-Miami is supposed to be carried on channel 27 starting at noon.

                       <<< Note 13.161 by TOOK::BKWAL >>>
                      -< According to this morning Globe >-

    
    FSU-Miami is supposed to be carried on channel 27 starting at noon.

 
   Confirmed Worcester Telegram and Gazette.....

    FSU-Miami is on Channel 9.  UNH is away at Dartmouth and apparently
    that intrastate rivalry will not be carried by Channel 9 as it has at 
    times in the past.
    
    We went through this same thing last year over the very same game
    (FSU-Miami) and the simple fact is that Channel 5 is making a business
    decision.  The ratings for a BC-anybody game around here are going to
    be higher than for any other game not including Notre Dame, especially
    early in the season and especially with a noon start time (this was
    borne out last year when the BC game outpolled the FSU-Miami game on
    Channel 25 by a factor of 10-- this year Channel 25 wanted no part of
    the game).  Some people (myself included) lament the relative lack of 
    interest in college football in this region, but the fact remains that 
    even though a lot of people don't like them, BC is the area's only
    Division I football school and they do have their devoted followers... 
    
    glenn
    

    
    I would prefer personally that Channel 5 bump BC in favor of the
    national matchup, however I understand the business decision
    and have no major beef with Ch 5. In fack, as much as I hate it, the
    demographics prove glenn's point; this is not a college foosball
    market. Even Ch's 56 and 38 (movies) and Ch 25 (wrasslin') pull in
    more audience share by running their insipid schedules on Saturday
    afternoon and wouldn't bite on picking up the ABC feed( now I want
    to know who the hail is watchin gladiator movies and wrasslin on
    Saturday PM!! 8^). I understand their decision.
    
    If PPV were offered in this circumstance, everyone would make money.
    I know PPV is only offered for regional feeds, but why not make an
    exception??
    
    BTW, kudos to Ch 27 (ah thinks I get this one on my cable), even tho
    I think they'll lose money. Hey, maybe they can keep their audience
    if they broadcast in Spanish!!
    
    MikeL
    

�    FSU-Miami is supposed to be carried on channel 27 starting at noon.
    
    But will the commentary be in English or Spanish (Ch. 27 is Worcester's
    Spanish speaking station).

    Englaish.....
    
    REK

    The faithful have been rewarded!
    
    Last week was EXACTLY as predicted.  I promised 4-0 and DELIVERED!
    BC played great O, ND crushed, AU/USC was an easy over, and Texas
    rolled over Rice.  That brings the season totals to an impressive
    10-4 record and more importantly a +1080 greenbacks.  The supporters
    have been calling in from all over the globe.  My following and 8-0 streak 
    has reached Vegas as Jim Feist and Kevin Duffy each called me this
    morning to see who I liked in this evenings Nebraska/OK St. tilt.
    I made them call me back on my THURSDAY GOLD SHEET TRIPLE LOCK PLAY
    PHONE and then gave them each a loser.  I can not be bought, if they
    want my picks they must find this note!!!
    
    Let's examine this game in depth.  What's the use Nebraska is going
    to give OK ST a crush job any way you slice the data.  I hate to
    give those 20 points but I will because NU is the real deal....again
    this year....I hope.  Game will be over by halftime but we'll have
    to keep watching as Tom plays his second and third stringers.  110
    
    IM JIMBO
    
    
    
     

    
    
         Thanks for the advice Jimbo!!! (he says sarcastically)
    
    
    Chappy :-(

    After watching some of last night's Nebraska-Oklahoma State game, I 
    can only conclude that once again Nebraska is living a lie this 
    season.  They may indeed be better than Colorado and Oklahoma, but
    considering their generally uninspiring play so far against Texas Tech,
    UCLA, and OK State, there's no way they should still be ranked ahead of
    the likes of Ohio State in the coaches' poll, for example.  Why do the
    pollsters never learn and annually overrate Nebraska as they do little
    more than pile it on against the hapless competition they schedule?
    I say move them down to the very bottom of the undefeateds and make 
    them earn their progress...
    
    glenn
    

 Cause Dr. Tom doesn't cheat? Maybe this is his reward? Maybe Dr. Tom gives
 good ____?

 MIKE    

    I think the most surprising thang about last night's game was the
    fack that the lineman that presented the 200th victory game ball to
    the Quack sounded erudite.
    
    Wonders never cease
    
    MikeL
    

    	Hey MikeL, size (or lack thereof) is not necessarily inversely
    proportional to intelligence (or lack thereof).
    
    				/Don

    
>    Hey MikeL, size (or lack thereof) is not necessarily inversely
>    proportional to intelligence (or lack thereof).
    
    Yes, but the ability to play football for the University of Nawlej 
    usually is...  ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    thanks Jimbo........I made some pocket change by going the other way
    again....
    
    I hope you like Miami tomorrow.....that line should be 25...........its
    a gift at 12 .............Fla St will win somewhere in the neighborhood 
    of 45-10.
    
    :')  :')
    
    Tom

    The streak is over!
    
    Now I'll have to hype with, I've hit 8 out of my last 9 plays!
    Nebraska did not look like the powerhouse I hope them to be
    each week.  Anyone who watched the end of the game though had
    to jump out of their seat when OK St fumbled the kickoff at the
    5 with 2 minutes to go.  That ball was just rolling around screaming
    for a Husker to jump on it.  Oh well record is now 10-5, +970.
    
    
    
    The GAME
    Take the 12 1/2 points and run.  I think Miami has a good shot to win
    this one outright.  Having that 12 point cushion is a bonus.  I'm
    looking for Fl St to not cover due to their own mistakes.  Ward
    is NOT the QB of the century everyone is making him out to be.  Look
    for at least 2 int's.  200
    
    Big East game of the week
    I'm going to ride those BC Eagles again this week.  Rutgers should
    have a let down as their backup QB Fortay is due to have a bad game,
    otherwise he wouldn't have lost his job!  Foley is on a roll. 100
    
    Total lock of the week (or the OVER lock of the week, I never go under
    because I hate to root for nothing to happen)
    I'll go with the over 46 1/2 in the Florida/LSU mismatch.  Look for
    Florida to score that many themselves. 100
    
    Lock of the week
    You have to LOVE Washington giving 3 at California.  Cal is going to
    get pummeled after that emotional victory last week.  How can you
    be losing 31-0 to the DUCKS!  A gift from Vegas on this one. 300
    
    IM JIMBO
    

    Proportion, whether inverse, converse, concave, or convex, has
    nothing to do with intelligence or lack of or size or lack of,
    it's the surprise of Nebraskan erudition.
    
    Huh?
    MikeL
    
    

>    it's the surprise of Nebraskan erudition.
    
Watch Roger Welch on CBS Sunday Morning.  There's some Nebraska erudition
for you.  He's COOL.


'Saw

    Sigh.

    
    
    Jimbo Jimbo Jimbo.....
    
    Boy am I glad I didn't listen to you thised weekend. 
    2-2 (2-3 counting Nebraska.)
    300 down.tsk..tsk...
    
    
    Chappy

    Chap,
    	we all have to come back to mere mortals eventually 8*)
    
    This week the NEW streak will start!!!!  I don't think their is
    a Thursday night game due to the NFL game though, so it will
    have to wait until Saturday. 
    
    Very suprised how tough of a time Wash had with Cal.  not so
    suprised about Miami but I felt the game could have gone
    either way spreadwise.
    
    Jimbo

    money management!  That's the topic I wish we had covered in
    my last seminar in Vegas, "So you want to flip a coin and charge
    $10 a call"
    
    Last week was a respectable 2-2 but a -350 where it counts.  Totals
    for the season are 12-7 +620.  A respectable +100 a week average.
    Could be cruising in the Islands come February.  Hopefully not Block
    Island!
    
    Great week for college football, with some great conference matchup's.
    While many of the games will be great to watch (OK/COL, ND/BYU,
    UCLA/WASH) stay away.  In my ever evolving role though, if you must I
    like Col, BYU, and UCLA......  
    
    Battle of the undefeated in the ACC
    I don't care how good Fl St looks, I'm going against them every week
    due to the number being ridiculous.  Give me Virginia with 25 points.
    One of these weeks they have to at least cool down a bit!!!!  200
    
    SEC battle of the week
    Take Bama and give the 6 to the Tenn. Volunteers.  Yeah Shuler is 
    this and that but they haven't played a D like Bama's yet.  UT's D
    will make Bama's O look like Fl St.  100
    
    OVER game of the week
    I like the over 41 in the Mich/Penn St game.  Both teams O's are
    much better than their D's.  AS far as the game goes I kind of expect
    Mich to bounce back as they were looking ahead to this game anyways.
    100
    
    Chris Knorr LOCK of the week
    Someone tell me if it's a misprint but my paper has UNC favored by 
    a mere 3.5 points @Georgia tech.  WOW!  Jump all over it, UNC
    will pull their starters with a 28 point lead.  300
    
    IM

    
    > OVER game of the week
    > I like the over 41 in the Mich/Penn St game.  Both teams O's are
    > much better than their D's.  AS far as the game goes I kind of expect
    > Mich to bounce back as they were looking ahead to this game anyways.
    
    Not Penn State's.  I might re-think this one if you're expecting Penn
    State to score many or give up many points, Jimbo...
    
    glenn
    

    Penn St will give up 28 in that game minimum!  Hopefully they'll
    score 14.  8*)

    I think there will be a few upsets this week, especially in the Big 10.

      Shouldn't that be Big 11?  Or did one of the other no-name schools
    drop out?
    
      Tim

    well yeah. But the official name of the conference does not have a
    number in it, and it is easier to keep it as Big 10.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Betting rule #1:
    
    ALWAYS bet a streak, not against one.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
    
          Tough week again huh Jimbo?
    
    
    Chappy

>    Betting rule #1:
>    
>    ALWAYS bet a streak, not against one.

Actually betting against a streak is often a very good wager. The
classical example of this is in NFL wherein it is very difficult to win
or lose 4 or more bets in a row. Occasionally, you'll see it by a hot
team or a very cold team but that is exceptional. As an example, there's
only one active even as long as 5 games and that's the Giants who have
won all 6 bets this year. Even Cincinnati, who's lost all their games
actually won a bet.

An in our own ::SPORTS we saw Jimbo on a major streak and we all know the
more recent history ;-).

TTom

    I'm certainly not in your betting league TTom, but it steal seems to me
    that, even though we all know a streak will eventually end, yer still 
    playing the odds *better* by going with a streak.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
    > I'm certainly not in your betting league TTom, but it steal seems to me
    > that, even though we all know a streak will eventually end, yer still 
    > playing the odds *better* by going with a streak.  
    
    Naw, streaks on the whole are meaningless either way.  If everyone bet
    a streak as you suggest, the odds or spreads would become prohibitive to
    winning.  Any streak that a hot team is experiencing is accounted for 
    and built in, and if anything there's probably an overcompensation on 
    the part of bettors to keep riding the favorite.   If I were a betting 
    man, I'd stick with the underdogs who shouldn't be (like this weekend's
    Colorado vs. Oklahoma, for instance) because those teams at least have
    a built-in incentive to cover because they have an incentive to win 
    the game...
    
    glenn
    

    
    	Anybody have the scores from this past weekend?
    
    Claybone

michigan 21, PENN ST 13
FLORIDA ST 40, virginia 14
syracuse 24, PITTSBURGH 21
ALABAMA 17, tennessee 17
no carolina 41, GEORGIA TECH 3
wake forest 20, CLEMSON 16
VA TECH 55, temple 7
MARYLAND 26, duke 18
rutgers 45, ARMY 38
AUBURN 38, florida 35
georgia 41, VANDERBILT 3
wisconsin 42, PURDUE 28
NEBRASKA 45, kansas st 28
KANSAS 35, iowa st 20
MISSOURI 42, oklahoma st 9
minnesota 28, NORTHWESTERN 26
illinois 49, IOWA 3
colorado 27, OKLAHOMA 10
MISSISSIPPI 19, arkansas 0
tulsa 23, MEMPHIS ST 19
HOUSTON 28, smu 28
TCU 14, tulane 7
UCLA 39, washington 25
OHIO ST 28, michigan st 21
SOUTHERN CAL 34, oregon st 9
LOUISVILLE 35, southern miss 27
WASHINGTON ST 34, california 7
MISSISSIPPI ST 23, so carolina 0
KENTUCKY 35, lsu 17
notre dame 45, BYU 20
texas a&m 34, BAYLOR 17
TEXAS TECH 45, rice 16
SAN DIEGO ST 30, colorado st 3
utah 45, TEXAS-EL PASO 29
ARIZONA 27, stanford 24
oregon 45, ARIZONA ST 36
FRESNO ST 33, air force 20

    Always go with the streak.  In TTOM's case the streak is go the
    other way on the 5th game.  You can do anything you want with stat's
    8*)
    
    I'm in a little lull but we're still playing with their money....
    
    As long as you can keep the streaks all positive, and basically
    split the rest of the time you'll come out a winner.  The problem
    is those damn streaks work both ways and you go from toast of the
    town to iceman QUICK!
    
    IM - missing my Thursday night college football!!!!

TTom, can you post the standings for the Ivy League. thnx

The Crazy Met

			Conf		All
			W  L  T		W  L  T
	Penn		2  0  0		5  0  0
	Princeton	2  0  0		5  0  0
	Brown		1  1  0		2  3  0
	Cornell		1  1  0		2  3  0
	Dartmouth	1  1  0		2  3  0
	Harvard		1  1  0		3  2  0
	Columbia	0  2  0		1  4  0
	Yale		0  2  0		1  4  0

    UPI				AP
    ----------------		----------------
 1. Florida St (7-0)		Florida St
 2. Notre Dame (8-0)		Notre Dame
 3. Ohio St (7-0)		Ohio St
 4. Nebraska (7-0)		Miami-FL
 5. Alabama (6-0-1)		Alabama
 6. Miami (5-1)			Nebraska
 7. Tennessee (5-1-1)		Arizona
 8. Arizona (7-0)		Tennessee
 9. Texas A&M (6-1)		Auburn
10. Florida (5-1)		Florida
11. West Virginia (6-0)		Texas A&M
12. Penn St (5-1)		Penn St
13. Oklahoma (6-1)		West Virginia
14. UCLA (5-2)			Oklahoma
15. Virginia (6-1)		UCLA
16. Louisville (7-1)		Virginia
17. No Carolina (7-2)		Louisville
18. Indiana (6-1)		No Carolina
19. Wisconsin (6-1)		Washington (5-2) (ineligible for UPI)
20. Colorado (4-2-1)		Colorado
21. Michigan St (4-2)		Wisconsin
22. Michigan (4-3)		Michgian St
23. Kansas St (5-1-1)		Indiana
24. Wyoming (6-1)		Michigan
25. Boston College (4-2)	Kansas St

    
    
    	Yabbut did anybody else hear about the homecoming game that was
    scheduled for Saturday but
    
    
    
    
    
    	They forgot to tell the league office to schedule the refs?
    
    ha ha ha ha 
    
    Sounds like the school administrations are run by management of a
    certain hi tech company!
    
    ;^)
    
    I remain,
    a i/c thank you very much
    Kev
    

which team??

The Crazy Met

 Some Mr. Wizard you are....

 ;^)

    

Since some of us are pretending to not talk about schedules, here's the
AP Top 25 and their opponents' record. Note that the opponents of Notre
Dame, Ohio St and Arizona have combined losing records. 

    AP Top 25			Opponents Record
    ---------			----------------
 1. Florida St (7-0)		30-15-0
 2. Notre Dame (8-0)		22-26-0
 3. Ohio St (7-0)		20-22-0
 4. Miami-FL (5-1)		29-05-0
 5. Alabama (6-0-1)		21-21-0
 6. Nebraska (7-0)		19-16-2
 7. Arizona (7-0)		19-26-0
 8. Tennessee (5-1-1)		22-20-0
 9. Auburn (7-0)		17-17-1
10. Florida (5-1)		20-14-3
11. Texas A&M (6-1)		20-21-2
12. Penn St (5-1)		18-20-0
13. West Virginia (6-0)		20-16-1
14. Oklahoma (6-1)		21-18-2
15. UCLA (5-2)			30-14-0
16. Virginia (6-1)		24-22-0
17. Louisville (7-1)		23-22-0
18. No Carolina (7-2)		28-28-0
19. Washington (5-2)		25-17-0
20. Colorado (4-2-1)		24-15-2
21. Wisconsin (6-1)		19-22-2
22. Michigan St (4-2)		25-14-0
23. Indiana (6-1)		23-21-0
24. Michigan (4-3)		25-15-1
25. Kansas St (5-1-1)		22-16-0

ttom,

I assume that is their oponnents records excluding the games against the
given team, right??

The Crazy Met

Here's what it says:

	Opponents Record: "combined record of all 1993 opponents,
		excluding their games against non-Division 1-A teams.

So, for instance, Miami played Georgia Southern whose record is not
included since they're 1-AA.

It's from the AP, printed in the local paper (which may mean all bets are
off).

TTom

    Hey,
    I ain't talking about ND's and FSU's relative schedules.
    If ya gonna jab me git the record straight, me bucko.
    
    ND's opponents is 35-39!!
    
    (AH discounted two of Navy's wins, vs Div 1-AA E. Illinois and Colgate)
    
    8^)
    MikeL
    

    WOW, the thing that grab's ya is Miami.  IF that is correct then
    Miami's 5 wins have been the only losses for 5 teams (so otherwise
    undafeated) 29-5-0 combined...Imagine if they had beat florida :-)
    
    Miami should still be #2 florida #1, ND#3 pending the outcome of
    the ND VS Florida Game...
    
    The TOP 25 usually has many, many surprises, and how an Undefeated team
    is not consider to be #1 always boggles my mind.  I definatly think
    they should play some sort of playoff for the #1... Oh well, what I
    think doesnt even get ya a free coffee :-)
    								MaB

actually since 1-AA teams are not included in that, one of Miami's opponents
has also lost to someone else. fwiw: I'm pretty sure Syracuse lost to BC.

The Crazy Met

Right you are, Crazy. 

BC beat 'Cuse, 33-29. And of course, FWIW, BC lost to Northwestern which
ND beat but didn't cover, which is the same result ND had with Purdue.

TTom

    .211
    No, TTOM's "some people are not talking schedules" was meant fer me
    THAT"S the jab. I take no offense at those facks. Facks is facks.
    
    Whaddya want me to do, put a TommySpin on it??
    
    MikeL
    
    
    P.S. What reasoning is there fer Miami to be #2?  They whupped a
    woefully overrated Syracuse team, and in translating Ericksonspeak,
    "wanted to send a message", they poured it on HoustonKlingler-style.
    I thunk I liked JJ and Schnellenhotdog better. At least they made
    no bones about their approach to 'Cane foosball.
    
    MikeL
    
    
    

I went through recent history and here's what I come up with. I've got
the records for the teams that Florida St, Miami-FL and Notre Dame have
played. For grins, I've also got their records against the spreads.

FLORIDA ST:
               Games:      Spread:
Team              W   L   T   W   L   T
---------------------------------------
Kansas            3   5   0   4   3   0
Duke              2   6   0   4   4   0
Clemson           5   2   0   1   4   0
No Carolina       7   2   0   4   4   0
Georgia Tech      3   4   0   4   2   0
Miami-FL          5   1   0   4   1   0
Virginia          5   2   0   4   2   0
           Tot:  30  22   0  25  20   0

NOTRE DAME: 
               Games:      Spread:
Team              W   L   T   W   L   T
---------------------------------------
Northwestern      2   5   0   3   4   0
Michigan          4   3   0   3   4   0
Michigan St       4   2   0   3   2   0
Purdue            1   6   0   1   4   1
Stanford          2   5   0   2   4   0
Pittsburgh        1   6   0   3   4   0
BYU               4   3   0   1   6   0
Southern Cal      4   4   0   5   3   0
           Tot:  22  34   0  21  31   1


MIAMI-FL:
               Games:      Spread:
Team              W   L   T   W   L   T
---------------------------------------
Boston College    4   2   0   4   2   0
VA Tech           5   2   0   2   2   1
Colorado          4   2   1   3   4   0
Florida St        7   0   0   7   0   0
Syracuse          4   2   1   1   5   0
           Tot:  24   8   2  17  13   1

Now you can start subtracting what they records would be if'n they hadn't
lost to the team in question. Not sure what to do about poor Miami and
FSU who had to suffer the ignominy of playing each other. It sure would
be nice if ND played Miami then at the end we'd really  have something
to talk about.

And Yeah, MikeL you picked up on the drift. But remember it twas you who
said you weren't gonna talk about this anymore. For myself, I think it's
a pretty good 'un.

TTom

well for FSU it works out to 30-15 and for ND 22-26
Miami take away one win (FSU) and 4 losses) which
works out to 23-4

What is Georgia Southern's record without the Miami
game? Is it 6-1??

The Crazy Met

Yes, Ga Southern would be 6-1 without Miami.

And of course Miami would be 5-0 without FSU.

And don't forget, nexted week we throw Navy (ND), Maryland (FSU) and
Temple (Mia) into the mix. Some real powerhouses there.

TTom

Right, adding in Ga Southern, taking away the wins against their 4 opponents
and the loss against FSU and it works out to 29-5.

The Crazy Met

    Yeah, ah said I wouldn't talk aboit it, cuz I thunk we done
    beaten it to death. But do you expect me to sit here and watch
    y'all innuendo me to tears?? 8^) I gots to defend you know...
    
    Sure ND's schedule looks like cake this year, and that's the way
    it turned out didn't it? What about all them experts that picked
    Michigan to be near the top? Or USC, MSU, BYU, BC, Stanford as well
    as FSU to be in the top 25? I supposde ND knew thewy was all
    overrated so that's why they scheduled them.
    
    And TTom's jest defending FSU cuz they joined the ACC. He's miffed
    cuz ah dissed the ACC as * in general*  a foosball so-so. 
    Point is, dat's a fack *today* 
    
    Anyhoo, I'm done ( comparing FSU's and ND's schedules) OK?
    
    MikeL
    

>    And TTom's jest defending FSU cuz they joined the ACC. He's miffed
>    cuz ah dissed the ACC as * in general*  a foosball so-so. 

This is exactly the point on which you depart from reality. I have never
ever presented or supported this argument.

Personally, I am glad that FSU did happen to join this particular
conference but I am not and have not "defended" anything.

Remember, I was the one who posted the data that you are now touting as
"proof" that FSU is a faux power.

And as far as football goes, I'm on record throughout this and other
incantations of ::SPORTS as stating that until such time as No Carolina
and Virginia quit playing the likes of Ohio U and all the teams quit
playing 1-AA teams, the ACC will never be able to make any claim about
how good they are.

And while we're at it, I never said ND sucked cause they scheduled weak
sisters. I think I generally lambast all the ND's and Nebraskas who play
Navy and the like but ND gets no particular attention other than to bait
you.

TTom

	MikeL,  I think the crucial point they seem to be missing is that these
	schedules are agreed upon years in advance.  It's not as if a team can
	wait to see if a team is going to be a cream puff then schedule them
	for that same year.  Remember, Pitt, a virtual "cream puff" this year,
	was not so several years ago, and may not be 5 years down the road.


	billl

Billl,

I think you're missing a crucial point. MikeL started the whole diatribe
attempting to prove the point that FSU was a faux football power.

And considering the fack that No Carolina won another basketball
championship this is just another LDUC until Dean chokes again.

But of course somebody will win the ND-FSU game. MikeL probably will
quote me as saying I think Florida St will win, which is precisely
another thang I aint ever said. In fact, I'll go so far as to say the
home court should give ND the edge although I expect the 'Noles to be
favored in THE LINE.

TTom

FSU-NDmight be a pick 'em game. FSU might be a 3 point favorite on a neutral
field. 3 points is standard for home field.

The Crazy Met

About the only thing to go on for how well Florida St is doing on the
road is the No Carolina game. In that game, the Noles coasted through the
first half and then poured it on to drub the Heels. I don't think you can
make much of the win at Duke.

But in any case, it should all come down to how much pressure ND can put
on Charlie Ward who has both the MNC and the Heisman to lose in this
game. If'n he plays his game, it'll be a long afternoon for the Irish.

TTom

    I did begin the whole diatribe, not so much against FSU's
    supposed "toughness", but against those who point to FSU as
    having a "traditional" monstah schedule, which they surely
    did not. I don't believe ah stated that FSU was a faux power
    cuz I really believe they are legit, but that they could not
    lean on their schedule in the past (recent) to prove it
    tested its mettle agin the "powers". That's all. And I've given
    credit for them playing UM and UF.
    
    And TTom... ah ain't arguing with you, something to do with
    with "baiting".... 8^)
    
    Latah,
    MikeL
    

baiting Leary

someone else is baited breath

all kinds of uses for this verb.

=Bob= any others??


The Crazy Met

> someone else is baited breath
    
    The use of 'baited' above is incorrect.  The correct phrase is 'bated
    breath.'
    
    Sid for =Bob=

    =Bob= guess you got another recruit. wait until he find out what it's
    like to be a plebe.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

TCM, I could make Sid the Cadet in charge of correcting your notes alone.  
Certainly would keep him in business. 

Nah I'm not that bad - I usually get those apostrophes and their/there/they're
right. How about assigning Sid to MAir's notes??

The Crazy Met

�right. How about assigning Sid to MAir's notes??

There is hoppe thyat, with a little guidance, patience and remedial care, you 
TCM will be able to communicate in English.  MAir, well when he misspelled 
Willie Mays, I lost all hope for him.

=Bob=

    There is what, =Bob=?

hope, as in hope springs eternal - well maybe not for Mac, but wrt everyone
else.

The Crazy Met

�    There is what, =Bob=?

OK, I'll blame that one on my new PC.  The terminal emultor stinks, so letters 
get inserted in words at random.  Really.

    Sigh......
    
    Sure ND has some patsies, but did ya see all the tough teams they
    have scheduled also. Tell me, what college team (no not even thast one)
    schedules a murderous year?? No one.
    
    I'll tellya what I don't like about ND's schedule AGAIN
    
    1. Continuous schedule with Navy
    2. 5 yr deal with Northwestern
    3. Scheduling Navy and Army in the same year.
    4. Scheduling Miami of Ohio at all.
    
    OK, now let's hear you talk about your dahlins' cupcakes and there
    are many. You haven't stood up like a main yet. And to imagine
    that you excoriate po' Heiser for the same thang you're doing.
    Hypocrittin' dat's it!! But what am I wasting my breath for, 
    
    
    MikeL
    
    

My 2 cents about cupcakes is that one a year is fine and hopefully it's a
school that has some relationship of history with the contending team.
The cupcake should be a 1-A team, fer sure.

After that, you gotta get them others off the schedule. You can't do
anything about conferences where there are rules on who and how many
others you have to play.

So what's left is a measure of how far you want your program to go. FSU's
schedule for this year is about what you want to see. Not bringing up any
previous or current ratholes but except for the conference, they play
Kansas, Notre Dame and Miami-FL.

TTom

    I had to take a week off to change the slipping downward spiral
    that had begun to develop.
    
    Tally as it stands now is 13-10, with a positive 480 cash flow.
    The goal this week is to at least double it!
    
    A couple of good matchups this week and a couple of crush jobs.
    
    The hope Temple runs the ball and stays in bounds game of the year
    I love Temple getting 57 against Miami.  It's not that I think 
    Miami shouldn't win by that much it's that there won't be enough
    time for them to score 60!  100
    
    Big Eight showdown 1
    As mentioned in another note, Nebraska will walk over the Buff's.
    Remember last year's score Colorado fans (52-7).  Nebraska will
    be playing for the national championship against Fl St in the 
    Orange Bowl.  200
    
    The revival of the Flip of the coin special
    I'm going to go against the grain on this one.  I like Penn St and
    the 3.5.  100
    
    Total lock of the week
    Go ove rthe 36.5 in the UCLA, Arizona game.  I agree with Mr. Heiser
    in that UCLA should roll also.  100
    
    Lock of the week
    Mich 4-3 is still going to hand Wisconsin a smack upside the head.
    They'll easily cover the 4 on the road.  300
    
    
    IM Jimbo

> I love Temple getting 57 against Miami

I thought they didn't even publish a line for those kind of spreads.

The Crazy Met

    They publish them, but getting actual cash down would require
    a trip to Vegas.  The highest I've seen people get is around
    30ish
    
    Jimbo

Some are putting a line on Temple and some have quit. I use the USA Today
for The Line but even the local papaer has them listed as "Off".
Generally, there's no problem with quoting 50 or more points.

TTom

    Any word on the condition of the Wisconsin spectators caught in the
    student rush at the end of the game? I saw some footage of it
    yesterday, man was that scary. Looked like England all over again.
    
    Puts everything into perspective. I caught a glimpse of one Badger
    player kneeling on the ground and sobbing uncontrollably. 
    
    Sobering.
    
    MikeL
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    All were out of critical last I heard... A couple were in serious
    condition.
    

    	So who do we blame because the students decided to rush the field?
    Security?  The school's administration?  They who have the deepest
    pockets?  Something tells me we'll find out soon enough.
    
    				/Don

    The student Newspaper printed that if the Badgers won the stedents
    should run on the field afer the game.....
    
    REK

What for? It's not like Michigan is a great or even good football team this
year.

I could see a cause for celebration if the M go blues were on the way to
another rose bowl or any bowl but that isn't going to happen...

It's sort of like rushing the field after a Cowboys victory over the Pats...


Metz

    It's the first time in 20 years or so they beat them.  Plus it's the
    name and reputation.  I don't blame them for having a party. 
    Michigan's been up for so long than even beating them in a down year
    is sweet.  The result was really tragic and not worth the jubilation.

    22 years is a long time for anything, Metz...
    
    >             -< too many dairy farmers in the same place >-
    
    Too bad MrT ain't still around to regale us with more stories about
    Madison, WI, Mike.  Far from dairy farmers; more like too many
    anarchists and displaced proletarians...
    
    glenn
     

    Re: MrT
    
    {sniff} the name brings tears to my eyes {sniff}.

    Actually Madtown has had a party reputation for as long as I can
    remember.  A friend of mine was at the game and brought me a few
    Madison newspapers yesterday.  
    
    Let's clear up one thing, the student newspaper put an ad in their
    Wednesday edition that read, "What are 75,000 Badger fans going to do
    Saturday that Tyrone Wheatly won't?  A- Rush the field
    
    In the student section they have general admission seating.  Apparently
    a lot of students like to migrate over there from halftime on and it
    can become overcrowded.  As the game ended, security was told to
    attempt to keep fans off the field not by force, but hand gestures.  A
    push from the back rows ensued and there was a wave of people pushed
    forward.  Because of the fence and locked gates the students in front
    were pinned helplessly in and bodies piled on top of bodies as 70 rows 
    condensed down to about 30.  Finally the force broke down the fence.  
    As many weren't aware of what was happening and cluttered the field - in 
    an attempt to tear down the recently installed non-removable goal posts 
    the PA announcer said, "We have non-breathing, no-pulse bodies, this is 
    not a joke.  Please clear the field for ambulences."  Shortly afterward 
    the crowd stood around in stunned silence and paramedic directions could 
    be heard shouting to one another.  A few of the remaining Wisconsin FB 
    players saw what was happening and began lifting bodies out of the pile.  
    I read where at least of couple gave mouth-to-mouth resusitation to the 
    woman who was probably most seriously injured.  They said she had turned 
    blue and wasn't breathing.
    
    The articles were quite moving and emotional, both scary and heroic. 
    There was some initial blame from both sides - students claiming
    security physically pushing people back in the stands and security for
    the initial surge by the students in the back.  But that has been pushed 
    out of the picture for the moment.  People are more concerned about 
    healing and helping each other.
    
    BTW, I know some are joking, but Wisconsin (like the other Big 10 and
    major schools elseware) in not made up of a "bunch of farmers"  If you
    honestly believe that, do yourself a favor and get some education on
    that.
    
    
    Spud

Ain't Madison the Liberal Capital o' the Free World?

And didn't they blow the place up back in the olden days protesting
Vietnam?

In any case, them Badgers better have their act together this week
against Ohio St. With the fade by Michigan, it looks like Wisconsin may
be the last real chance for someone to beat the Buckeyes.

TTom

> Ain't Madison the Liberal Capital o' the Free World?

First try Berkley, CA; upper West Side of Manhattan; Massachusetts; San
Francisco;

Then maybe you can put Madison in a second tier.

The Crazy Met

    No, I think(from people who actually live in the Midwest) that the
    People's Republic of Madison is definitely in the first tier.
    And don't forget the People's Republic of Corvallis.
    
    Now I wouldn't categorize all of Mass (specially west of 128) as
    first tier. Now concentrate on EMASS and you get two flaming reds:
    The People's Republic of Brookline and even more so Craze, yer
    adopted home town... The King... The People's Republic of Cambridge.
    
    MikeL
    

That's how I see it too, MikeL. Just look at the Queen High Priestess of
Social Architecture, Donna Shelayla.

Of course, back in the 60s and early 70s, Ann Arbor wasn't any slouch its
own self in terms of student type leftists.

I wonder if Joe Paterno knew about all this scandalous Big 10 stuff when
he joined up?

TTom

> Of course, back in the 60s and early 70s, Ann Arbor wasn't any slouch its
> own self in terms of student type leftists.
    
    Hey!!  I resemble that remark!!  Madison, Cambridge, and Berkeley were
    our 'sister' cities.  For gory details, be at the Grounded Round in
    Chelmsfuhd on Tuesday. :-)
    
    Sid (Ann Arbor, '68 - '72)

    Wow Sid - you're old...

    Ah so Sid,
    
    You musta been there when Dierdork attended BoU!
    
    ND, I heard, was still conservative in the late 60's ( ah matriculated
    there from 71-75, and we had occasional protests, marches, but nothing
    inflammatory). 
    
    I do knowe that ND had some anti-war demonsrations in 68,69,
    culminating in a massive protest after the 70 Kent St tragedy.
    However when a group of protestors threatened to burn their student\
    ID's in front of the admin building in '70, Fr. Ted Hesburgh the Prez
    told 'em, " You burna da ID's you outta da school". Don't think
    anyone burned their ID's.
    
    MikeL
    

    Last week was another below average week for me.  Tally was 3-2
    with a net of -40.  Michigan SIPS, don't even bother watching 
    them the rest of the  year.  Total fo rthe year puts us at 16-12
    with a plus 440.  Somehow we've managed to stay afloat...
    
    BIG EAST GAME OF THE WEEK
    I'm going to do it.  I'm taking the BC Eagles.  A bunch of data
    points the so called experts the other way, but I like BC at home
    giving the 3.5.  100
    
    Big Ten game of the week
    Will Wisconsin summon up the strength to beat Mich, Ohio St in back
    to back weeks?  I don't think so.  I'll give the 6.5 on the road
    and take the Buckeye's. 100
    
    The TOTAL LOCK OF THE YEAR
    Expect a high scoring UNC/Clemson tilt with the game easily covering
    the 42 point line.  
    
    IM Jimbo

>    You musta been there when Dierdork attended BoU!
    
    Yup.  He was in my History of World War II class.  The prof was this
    ancient guy name Rickenbacker.  All the jocks took his course 'cause
    his exams were nothing but lists.  If you had all his past exams, all
    you had to do was memorize a whole bunch of lists (e.g., list 4 types
    of weapons used in the Peloponnesian War; yes, you heard that right. 
    Old Man Rickenbacker spent the first ten weeks of the eleven week
    semester working his way up to WWII).
    
    Anyway, Rickenbacker, who had to be in his eighties, took attendance
    (the only course I ever had where that was done).  On the first day of
    lecture, everyone put their name on a seating chart that he passed
    around.  Everyone but Dierdorf put their first name first and last name
    last.  Each lecture, when Rickenbacker called the role, it sounded
    like:  John Smith, Mary Jones, Dierdorf Dan, George Meteskey, . . .
    The class would chuckle and Rickenbacker never noticed.
    
    RE:  =Bob= and "you must be old"
    
    I wasn't old then.  :-)  When I went back in '82 to finish my
    undergraduate degree (I had withdrawn in '72 as a second semester
    senior in protest of the University's funding of chemical and
    biological warfare research at Willow Run Laboratories) and then do my
    Master's degree, I was old.  I'm younger than that now.
    
    Sid
    
    P.S.  Bonus points for anyone who can finish the quote that I started
    in the title of my last reply.

    Tide die. No consecutive MNC.
    
    Nebraska barely escapes with their lives. 1 pt win over Kansas.
    
    Miami could move to #3.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

Miami has moved in front of Nebraska in the poll that counts, the Bowl
Poll. I think this is a composite of the AP and UPI. In any case, Miami's
impressive win at Pittsburgh and Nebraska's near fall to Kansas caused
Miami to go from #6 to #3. At this point, that puts the Hurrcanes in the
driver seat for playing in the MNC against the Florida St-Notre Dame
winner.

The other scenario being spread is what if Florida St loses by very few
after playing very well. In that case, the Noles end up as #2. This would
force a rematch.

Supposedly, if'n the Big 8 is shut out because of this, they plan on
leaving the coalition. Nebraska, losing the last 5 or 6 bowls, doesn't
help their cause.

And what a lovely way to win a conference title! Ohio St settles for a
tie against Wisconsin. "Let't tie one for Cooper" is apparently the
rallying cry for the Buckeyes.

TTom

�And what a lovely way to win a conference title! Ohio St settles for a
�tie against Wisconsin. "Let't tie one for Cooper" is apparently the
�rallying cry for the Buckeyes.
    
    I wouldn't call putting the ball in the air in the closing seconds
    "settling for a tie".  Now if the OSU QB took the snap and took a knee
    you might have a point.

How about a 2 point conversion attempt to actually win the game? If'n
they were good enough to score or at least set up 6 through the air, how
about pass for 2 to win?

As it is, Cooper's 2 biggest games in his career have been ties. Hail,
they declared lasted year's tie with Michigan a victory!

And it wasn't exactly the closing seconds. Wisconsin had enough time to
move down the field and attempt a field goal.

But in any case, the message is clear: why try to win when you can tie.

TTom

re: .265

Cooper made the right call to go for the PAT. There were 4 minutes left
in the game; plenty of timw to get the ball back and score.

What I still can't understand is why UW didn't keep running the ball and then
using their timeouts. OSUcouldn't stop them on the last drive.

The Crazy Met

    I think Cooper made the right call with 4+ on the clock.
    With three timouts the Bucks had enuf time. The defensive calls
    Cooper and his Defensive coordinator made during UW's last
    drive are suspect. They blitzed half the time leaving room for
    draws and traps. I think Wiscsonsin converted at least twice
    on third and long (over 10 yds) with draw plays. 
    OSU was sending six or seven on first and second downs, obvious
    Wisconsin running plays. Hail you coulda driven a truck through
    some of them Trap holes.
    
    Oh well, OSU is on to Ann Arbor to tie one on
    
    MikeL
    

    What was the outcome of the UNC vs Clemson game played last weekend?
    The result  didn't get reported in the Sunday papers here in Mass.
    (apparently a late game).
    
    Thanks,
    
    KG

�How about a 2 point conversion attempt to actually win the game? 
    
    Oh yeah, I forgot the 2 point conversion was still in the college game.
    
�And it wasn't exactly the closing seconds. Wisconsin had enough time to
�move down the field and attempt a field goal.
    
    The play I was referring to was the one after Wisconsin missed the FG.
    
    So considering UW had enough time to move down the field, perhaps OU
    was thinking they'd tie the game and let the D get the ball back to
    give the O the chance to win it.

    
    There's not a coach in the country that would've gone for two in that
    situation with almost 4 minutes to go in the game, even if you didn't 
    consider what was at stake (which you have to).  With all the timeouts 
    remaining there was time enough to get the ball back *twice* if your 
    defense does the job.  The percentages show that the 2-point conversion
    is suicide.  It's a last resort.
    
    glenn
      

That musta been the reasoning.

But almost quietly, Cooper has stepped in and filled the void left by Pat
"Tie" Dye.

I realize that going for the win has a_upside and a downside. If
successful, it's the best of all worlds. If unsuccessful, it can be seen
as wiping out the merits of coming back. I ain't a coach but I'd think
taht with 4 minutes left, that would be a good time to go for it. If'n
the logic is that they'd still have time to kick a FG then this would be
the fail-safe on not getting the 2 point conversion: you can always win
it with the same FG you have time to kick.

I think playing for the tie is something that should be left to the
underdogs. If'n you're favored to win, it seems that you oughta go for
it. But then again, Ohio St has shown how they reward playing to win.
Just ask Earl Bruce.

TTom

    With the effect that a loss can have on the standings in the polls (and
    as a result the Bowl bids and $), I can understand why coaches get
    conservative.

>As it is, Cooper's 2 biggest games in his career have been ties. Hail,
>they declared lasted year's tie with Michigan a victory!
    
    no his biggest was with ASU beating Michigan in the '87 Rose Bowl ;-)

I can understand it also but I don't have to like it.

This should be right up there with what's wrong with college athletics. I
ain't addressing per se what Cooper did, but's it's a pitiful state of
affairs that has a team not trying to win because they can't afford to
lose the rating and the money that goes along with it.

Standings and bowl bids, and the almighty dollar that comes with them,
is now the most important thing. Screw trying to win when it might cost
you money.

TTom

    It ain't the money specifically.  The Big-10 splits the bowl and TV money 
    equally amongst all members and even Northwestern gets its share each and
    every year.  Prestige and whatever that's worth is another matter, but
    it can be argued that if your coach pulls enough gutless decisions
    (like Cooper truly did in last year's Michigan game) then you sacrifice
    the prestige anyway.
    
    I still fail to see your logic in this, TTom.  At what point should a
    coach be obligated to cede the advantage to the other team just to 
    prevent the possibility of a tie game?  Five minutes left?  10?  The 
    entire 4th quarter?  Even then it's not unusual to see an entire
    scoreless quarter.  It doesn't make sense.  Ohio St. has a much better 
    chance to win the game if they tie it first than if they miss the 
    conversion (the 75% chance result of this decision).  Wisconsin has to 
    take chances in order to try to win the game (which they did).    
    
    I've never thought it fair that the team that scores first in these
    situations is asked no questions but the team that scores second is
    somehow obligated to toss the game away (in most cases) when both teams
    accomplished the exact same thing.  That's why I've always favored the 
    one overtime period while retaining the 2-point conversion (if a team 
    likes their chances going that odds-against route).
    
    glenn
    

I think it's more a matter of Big 10 (11) teams playing for the
Rose Bowl rather than for the MNC.  It seems like Lee Corso was making that
same point last year.

Jerry

    The coach whose strategy really should be questioned is not Cooper, but
    Alvarez.  He was gobbling up the yardage aginst Ohio State, then
    decided to pass - WHY?!?!?!?!?  And why not use your time outs?  You
    can't carry them over to the next week's games!!!
    
    NAZZ

The only time to go for the 2 pointer instead of the tie is when you have
nothing to lose and everything to win. Like 2 seconds to go during a bowl game
or when a tie would knock you out....

Of course if you have a david Palmer in your arsenal of players than you can 
afford to gamble more on the 2 pointer....

Metz

> Like 2 seconds to go during a bowl game
> or when a tie would knock you out....

So should Nebraska have kicked the PAT against Miami in the '83 Orange Bowl?

The Crazy Met

    That's a good point met.  btw why don't you have a "knicks in 94" pname
    until baseball season.
    
    Oh, btw; I am one of those who watch Michigan - Auburn that night and
    switched to Miami after Auburn held off w's and will still claim it was
    the better game
    
    And Bo says it was toughest and best game of his career
    

> btw why don't you have a "knicks in 94" pname

tradition; you know how we baseball fans feel about that :-)

The Crazy Met

I have to agree, Alvarez made some dumb calls in that last drive, run the ball
and pick up a few yards. He wasted 3 plays in passing the ball, gained no yards
and forced a longer field goal attempt.

Re. Miami v. Nebraska , one of the greatest games Iv'e seen. Coach Osborne
madethe right call. The pollsters would have been all over it. You go for
broke in that case, not in the case last week.

I remember Auburn V. Syracuse a few back, Dye kicks the PAt for the tie on the
last play and everyone walks away shaking their heads, like why bother play for
the tie. If you get the 2 points you win if not you gave a great effort to
win. Ties are boring..


Mike 

After much encouragement from fellow noters, I take back all them thangs
I said about Cooper being so bad a coach that the best he ever did was
tie a couple of teams.

Seriously, 4 minutes to go ain't the time to go for 2.

As for Alvarez, it's hard to fault his season even if'n he choked down
the stretch as some have opined.

And I still wanna see the Buckeyes beat the Bruins afore I'm on any
Cooper bandwagon.

TTom

    Oh, I'm on no Cooper bandwagon believe me.
    He's shown squat before this year.
    
    I thought Wisconsin should have beat the Bucks and I'm still not
    so sure OSU has what it takes to beat Michigan at Ann Arbor.
    
    
    Doesn't OSU git Indiana at home next?
    
    MikeL
    
    

Ohio St has Indiana at Columbus and then Michgigan in Ann Arbor.

Indiana has shown that it can be competitive with the big boys. From the
looks of the Penn St game however, it looks like their D was a bit
overrated after a couple of shutouts.

TTom

�After much encouragement from fellow noters, I take back all them thangs
�I said about Cooper being so bad a coach that the best he ever did was
�tie a couple of teams.
    
    I think we are seeing SPORTS history being made here folks.  I can't
    recall anyone ever having their mind changed in here.

After much encouragement from fellow noters, I hereby take back what I
said about taking back what I said.

I've become convinced that it is a very "dangerous" precedent to
simultaneously make this type of admission and to give credit to anything
to do with ::SPORTS.

TTom

Can't we all just get along??????

> Can't we all just get along??????

REK sue 'Saw for plagiarism!

The Crazy Met

    TTom, when you're losing an argument in ::SPORTS, you either
    argue louder or change the subject or insult the opposition. 
    You don't do something as civilized and rational as admit that 
    you may have been wrong. When swimming with the sharks, it's best
    not to look like food.

    Saw, my lawyer (Rook, Snook and Crook) will be at your doorstep
    when you get home tonight!!!!
    
    REK

	Based souly on 13.295 I hereby nominate Tommy Brydie for NOTY.

	That note should be included in the introduction note of this
	file so first time readers will be fore warned.


	billl

>    Saw, my lawyer (Rook, Snook and Crook) will be at your doorstep
>    when you get home tonight!!!!
    
Good.

I'll beat them all like a red-headed stepchild.  Then I'll stomp on
them, and beat them some more.

I'll show them how to get along.....


When I'm done with them they won't be moving from my door step, unless
it's on a stretcher....


(Wow, I'm kind of liking this "violence" thing)


8^)

>	Based souly on 13.295 I hereby nominate Tommy Brydie for NOTY.
              ^^^^^

Holy Cow! That's some kinda endorsement.

Following the rules:

1. COOPER TO BLAM!
2. Dean shoulda played for a tie in 84.
3. Y'all are sissies.

TTom

Bill, for NOTY we need a 1-on-1 face off between Tommy and JD. One
who is most annoying gets the title.

The Crazy Met

	TCM, that's for NOTY not A(nnoyance)OTY.  If it was AOTY you'd
	have a real good shot at it.


	billl

> If it was AOTY you'd have a real good shot at it.

thanks billl. But, Tommy and JD truly made this into an art form - something
we needed after T-man left.

The Crazy Met

    JD is an idiot.............
    
    REK

    Can he say that in here?  haha

    San Diego State didn't play for the tie.

I liked it. Going for the win! That's what college is all about.

Of course, the play they called was less than impressive. What was the
part about dribbling the ball? Was that really in the play that was
called?

You don't wanna lose but you don't wanna not go fer it, either.

TTom

    Oh No!
    
    The tally stands at 17-14, +100 for the year.  I can't even get a
    bus package to Foxwoods with that kind of coin.  This week will
    change all of that!
    
    THE GAME
    Don't even think about not taking FL St.  Give the 6.5 and laugh all
    the way to the bank.  ND hasn't beaten a quality team this year period!
    Look for a high scoring game with Fl St doubling up the Irish. 1000
    
    The Brydie/Heiser PARADOX IN PASEDENA 
    I don't know how the other school in Arizona can possibly stop the
    #5 in some polls powerhouse UCLA Bruins, but I'll take Heiser's State
    to cover the 11. 200
    
    BIG East tilt
    I like the Orangemen to win outright against V. Tech.  Graves should
    rip apart the Defense in a high scoring game.  200
    
    IM JIMBO

>    The Brydie/Heiser PARADOX IN PASEDENA 
>    I don't know how the other school in Arizona can possibly stop the
>    #5 in some polls powerhouse UCLA Bruins, but I'll take Heiser's State
>    to cover the 11. 200
    
    I think you're safe here Jimbo.  ASU isn't the same team it was at
    season's beginning.  UCLA is without their starting QB.  ASU whooped in
    20-0 in L.A. last season.  ASU could win outright, nevermind cover.

Welcome to the 1993 College Bowl Topic.

You'll get the schedule, matchups, who's who and maybe even another
nexted annual bowl contest.

TTom

Article: 1526
From: [email protected] (United Press International)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.football.college
Subject: College Football Bowls
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 93 14:35:06 EST
 
                             ------
                             Dec. 18
                           Silver Bowl
                       at Las Vegas, Nev.
        MAC Champ vs Big West Champ
                             Dec. 24
                        John Hancock Bowl
                        at El Paso, Texas
        Coalition vs Coalition
                             Dec. 25
                           Aloha Bowl
                           at Honolulu
        WAC-2 or at-large vs Big Eight-3
                             Dec. 28
                          Liberty Bowl
                        at Memphis, Tenn.
        Louisville (7-1) vs Big 10
                             Dec. 29
                           Copper Bowl
                        at Tucson, Ariz.
        WAC-2,3 or at-large vs Big Eight-4
                             Dec. 30
                          Freedom Bowl
                       at Anaheim, Calif.
        Pac 10-2 vs at-large
                             Dec. 30
                          Holiday Bowl
                          at San Diego
        WAC Champ vs Big 10-3
                             Dec. 31
                        Independence Bowl
                       at Shreveport, La.
        at-large vs at-large
                             Dec. 31
                           Gator Bowl
                      at Jacksonville, Fla
        Coalition vs SEC-3
                             Dec. 31
                           Peach Bowl
                           at Atlanta
        ACC-3 vs SEC-4
                             Dec. 31
                           Alamo Bowl
                         at San Antonio
        SWC-3 vs PAC 10-4
                             Jan. 1
                          Heritage Bowl
                           at Atlanta
        Southern U vs MEAC Champ
                             Jan. 1
                        Hall of Fame Bowl
                         at Tampa, Fla.
        ACC-4 vs Big 10-4
                             Jan. 1
                       Florida Citrus Bowl
                        at Orlando, Fla.
        SEC-2 vs Big 10-2
                             Jan. 1
                           Cotton Bowl
                            at Dallas
        SWC Champ vs Coalition
                              Jan 1
                     Carquest Sunshine Bowl
                            at Miami
        Big East-3 vs SEC-5
                             Jan. 1
                           Fiesta Bowl
                         at Tempe, Ariz.
        Coalition vs Coalition
                             Jan. 1
                            Rose Bowl
                       at Pasadena, Calif.
        PAC 10-champ vs Big 10 champ
                             Jan. 1
                           Orange Bowl
                            at Miami
        Big Eight champ vs Coalition
                              Jan 1
                           Sugar Bowl
                         at New Orleans
        SEC Champ vs Coalition

    Thanks for the double reverse sandbaggin' KOD there Jimbo!
    
    I really feel confident now
    
    MikeL
    

>  Mike Heiser and Jimbo McKay both agree on ASU. Watch the line go up
> to 13 or 14 as noters all across the country load up on UCLA.
    
    Hey KJ, last I looked, you and I were *TIED* in the NFL_POOL
    conference.

    But guess who is number 1.....  :-}
    
    REK

    
    >>But guess who is number 1.....  :-}
    
    Yah,yah, there's still a long way to go, though.
    
    JaKe
    

    I er um meant to take ND last week!!!!
    
    Can you say payment plan....
    
    Tally now is 18-16 with a -1020 figure.  Just as a comparison to my
    esteemed Boston writers.  IM Bettor is at -1855 and Gerald Strine (Globe)
    is at -90 playing the pro's.  I guess I could pick the pro's with the
    pro's then!!!
    
    We're going crazy this week.  I want it all back in one week!
    
    Irishmania
    I'm going with BC and taking the 14.5 points.  I'll even go so far
    as to say they are going to beat them outright.  Why you ask?
    I'm going to bank on the big game letdown and BC growing up a bit
    after that pasting they recieved last year.  200
    
    ACC game of the week
    I haven't picked the right side of a FL St game all year, but yet
    I must TRY.  I'll take NC St and the 31.5. 200
    
    Second tier bowl ramification game
    Wheatley's back and so is Michigan.  Mich by 2 touchdowns easily
    covering the 1.5 line. 200
    
    My one and only under game of the year
    Take under 45 in the USC/UCLA game.  I don't care if UCLA's QB is back
    200
    
    Lock of the week
    I'm going with BYU giving 7 to Utah.  Herald says BYU has covered
    12 of last 13, good enough for me.  500
    
    IM JIMBO
    
    BTW after watching the UMASS game lsat night it's very obvious
    that UCONN > UMASS !!!

>    My one and only under game of the year
>    Take under 45 in the USC/UCLA game.  I don't care if UCLA's QB is back
>    200
    
    I heard this morning that USC is 9-0 against UCLA with the Roses at
    stake.

Hail, Cooper aint never beat Michigan. Case Closed.

TTom

    >Hail, Cooper aint never beat Michigan. Case Closed.
    
    once again, this is false.  Cooper was the coach when ASU beat Michigan
    in the '87 Rose Bowl.  
    
    Unless that doesn't count since the Big 10 always loses in Pasadena.

Nothing to do with Arizona counts, dontcha know ;-).

Yeah, I keep forgetting that afore they ran Big Earl outta town, Cooper
used to win such things a conference titles.

Watch the Buckeyes lose and the Illini beat Wisconsin and Cooper will
back into a final.

TTom

    I need to add 2 more games to this weeks coffers.
    
    I'll take Miami giving the 5 over the Wannabee's West Virginia.
    Time to smell the coffee boys. 200
    
    I'm also going to flip the coin and take Alabama with the 1
    for 200 also.  
    
    IM JIMBO

    
    
        Anybody out there?
    
    Stuck here in NQO (movin ya know) without no Radio. My Wife says its 24
    14. BC at Halftime. Is this true? GO BC......
    
    
    
    Chappy

    Yes, it was 24-14 BC at halftime.  The game is now over.  It was won
    with a field goal with no time left on the clock.  The score was 41-39.
    
    
    BC!!!

    Joy in the Hub. So lets see if I got
    this right.
    
    ND loses to BC
    Florida State massacres NC State
    Miami loses to WVU
    Nebraska doesn't play
    Ohio State loses 28-0 to Michigan.
    
    I will guess that FSU moves to #1, Nebraska to #2. WVU
    to #3,4 and ND to #3,4? If FSU beats Florida, and Nebraska
    beats Oklahoma then its off to the Orange Bowl for #1 vs. #2.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
    
    
    

    All hail Glenn Flutie, errrh, Foley...

Yabut NEBRASKA is #1 in the polls!  Geeze!

won't last.
huskers will be exposed new years day.
seminoles will have more trouble getting by
gators than they will with nebraska.

dr.a

    
    	Seminoles don't deserve to be #1 or #2 IMO.  They lost to a team
    	that lost to BC fer crissakes!  :*)
    
    Claybone

which nu is number 1 claybone?
must be northwestern...they beat mighty bc
;-)

dr.a

    Are the 1-4 rankings the same in both polls?
    
    The Crazy Met (laptops and modems do have dvantages)
    

    Yea BC certainly deserves all the credit. They done put a physical
    whupping on ND fer 3 quarters and came back with a solid drive to ice
    it. No excuses, better team on Saturday won. Period. 
    BC was able to control both lines of scrimmage and dat was all she
    wrote.
    
    Great win for Coughlin and the BC football program. Congrats it
    was well deserved. And Coughlin and his staff certainly did devise
    a great game plan and outcoached Holtz and company, just like
    Holtz and co. did to BobbyBloat last weekend.
    
    You won't hear any whining and media manipulation for these here
    ND parts about polls. Looks like ND had their shoy at MNC in their
    hands and blew it ( er, BC blew it apart). I say make WVU and
    the Huskers #1 and #2 right now and let the chips fall where they
    may. I wish a certain team and coach from da panhandle would
    shut their whiny yappin mouf.. take your defeat like a main did
    up in northern Indiana and git out the way for undefeated teams.
    
    Congrats BC, I thought you'd be higher than #11.
    
    MikeL
    

Saturday has to rank right up there as one of the greatest days in college 
football. I can't recall when so many big games were played and so many high 
ranking teams fell. BC ND was a great game, WVU and Miami also a thriller.
As for the polls, I should be NU #1 and WVU #2, the pollsters hands wree tied
thsi week for the # 1 spot as far a I'm concerned, they had FSU too high 
after lost last week.

If NU and WVU both finish 11-0 , should should play for #1, it's only fair.
Both ND and FSU had thier chance and couldn't hold it, so give the other schools
their fair chance. next weeks games will decide though once and for all who 
the tops 1-4 schools are.


Mike

                 
> Anyone who thought the Buckeyes 
> were top ten material obviously wasn't paying attention.
    
    Somebody better let the coaches of America in on this, as Ohio State
    is still #10 in that poll (#12 in the AP), with Wisconsin taking their
    place in the top 10 and likely in the Rose Bowl, Penn State hovering
    just outside that rank and Indiana, Michigan, and Michigan St. rounding 
    out the total of *six* Big-10 teams in the Top 25.  You may call those 
    rankings and the result of a such a huge traditional Big-10 matchup as 
    UM-OSU "vindication" (I wasn't surprised that Michigan won; I was 
    surprised at the ease at which they did it as OSU apparently didn't even 
    show and blundered their way into a rout), but I'm holding on for the 
    bowl games to see just how good this conference really is.  Wisconsin 
    and Ohio St. still have only that lone numeral "1" under the "L" column, 
    a pretty fair accomplishment considering the strength of the conference...
    
    glenn
    

    I think BC will beat West Virginia this Friday to put an end to their
    ride.  If WVU wins; I agree, they should get a title shot, but it looks 
    like they could get shut out in favor of Nebraska-FSU anyway.  Then
    again, when it comes to the #1 and #2 spots and the matter of a
    national championship game, the pollsters appear more and more to be 
    guided by moral arguments than by reason.  How else do you explain 
    Nebraska's sudden resurgence in both polls vis-a-vis FSU when Nebraska 
    was idle and FSU knocked the stuffing out of NC State?  It appears that
    a week's contemplation on the Mythical Power of the Undefeated #1 
    (regardless of schedule) changed a few minds.
    
    Notre Dame is burned badly on the "He Who Loses Last Loses Most" theory.
    They're fatally damaged because they have no games left.  Swap the FSU
    and BC games on the schedule and the arbitrary difference of one week 
    would have ND ranked ahead of FSU.  It's a very bizarre logic being 
    practiced around the top spots in these polls, with the Alliance bowl 
    tie-in only further muddling the thinking...
    
    glenn
      

    Letting Nebraska play West Virginia for the MNC is a farse cause it
    *encourages* teams to play a lousy schedule.  In this case, the
    Mountaineers schedule looks plenty beefy enough, but the Cornhuskers?! 
    Bank on them getting toasted by Notre Dame, FSU, Miami, or, for that
    matter, West Virginia.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
>    Letting Nebraska play West Virginia for the MNC is a farse cause it
>    *encourages* teams to play a lousy schedule.
    
    You are so correct, sir!
    
>    In this case, the
>    Mountaineers schedule looks plenty beefy enough, but the Cornhuskers?! 

    Not really.  So far, WVU's entire schedule of quality opponents is 
    comprised of an off-year Miami, at home (watching the second half at
    this game I was fairly unimpressed, especially by Miami, but maybe WVU's 
    defense is better than I think it is-- we'll see).  If they beat a
    red-hot BC in Boston then I'll concede my total respect, and demand
    WVU's representation in a championship game.  I want to see this team
    stop BC's offense first, though.  Thus far I don't see them having any
    real argument against a Nebraska team that has beaten three Top-20
    teams in UCLA, Colorado, and Kansas State, to tell you the truth. 
    Nebraska's performance in the Oklahoma game will be telling, and I have a
    feeling the Huskers are going to romp.  At least there's major incentive
    for Oklahoma.  Friday afternoon with NU-OU and BC-WVU is going to be a
    great afternoon of football. 
    
    I still think the best two teams in the country are FSU and ND, in that
    order.  If I had to vote those would be my picks.  Quality of schedule 
    should be a much higher priority than it is... 
    
    glenn
     
     

    Never whined in my life Brydie.
    
    We're out of it. I didn't say one word last week about FSU
    whining about another shot, cuz the coalition decides who's #2,
    be it FSU, NU or WVU. All I've heard from BB and FSU is how they
    deserve a second chance blah blah blah. You won't hear that sorry
    tripe from either me or South Bend.
    
    Stand aside like a main that you ain't.
    
    MikeL
    
    
    

    TCM,
    	The coaches poll slides BC down to 12th behind Penn St. and Ohio
    st.
    	In AP BC moves above these two but down a notch because of the true
    number 1 team Auburn which though ranked in AP is pyschologically
    dropped by the reporters.
    
    	All was not a complete success for BC as Doug Flutie and his
    Calgary team lost to Edmonton.
    
    	As for the game apparently someone reminded Lou how he won last
    year (using the middle of the field) and ND did "roar back" but
    apparently the big battle was being fought by the ghosts vs the saints
    or something with the laws of physics finally being suspended to change
    the direction of Gordon's kick.
    
    	And was it my imagination or when they showed "the candle" did it
    seem to go out - that was my omen of the day.
    
    	Finally of the cars damaged by students jumping on them one of them
    was Coach Coughlin's 

                                                           
    >   Isn't this contradictory? You're waiting until the bowl games
    >   "to see just how good the conference really is" BUT you want
    >   to give OSU and Wisconsin credit for having such good records 
    >   in a strong conference. 
    
    I think the conference as a whole has proven itself to be very good 
    based on its non-con games (right down to a team like Northwestern which 
    was absolute 0-8 flat *winless* in the Big-10 but beat Boston College-- 
    no excuses, please; the fact that the result is even plausible speaks
    for itself-- and played Notre Dame very tough), but I want to see
    just how good.  They'll get that chance.  They have 7 bowl qualifiers
    and it looks like at least 6 will go bowling.
    
     >  I'll give you Wisconsin, they've got a 
     >  good squad but the Big 10 as a whole and OSU in particular
     >  are overrated but I don't hold out any hope of you ever admitting
     >  that even after OSU got the dog snot slapeed out of them.
      
    No need to hold out any longer: Ohio State *was* overrated at #5.  I
    don't think they're overrated at around #10.  But if you want to feel
    "vindicated" after an entire season of banging on the Big-10 by Ohio
    State losing on the final day of the season to their traditional rival 
    and finishing at 9-1-1 (the record of the conference's rep in the Rose 
    Bowl either way) while pegging the excuse-o-meter for the likes of an 
    8-3 UCLA with its clunker losses to Cal and Arizona St., feel free.  
    Take this note as my entry into the crow note.  Once again, Ohio St.
    didn't get it done when it counted, against Big Blue.
    
    glenn
                             

    >    8-3 UCLA with its clunker losses to Cal and Arizona St., feel free.  
    >    Take this note as my entry into the crow note.  Once again, Ohio St.
    
    that's where you'll be heading after ASU beats Michigan in the Freedom
    Bowl.

    HAHAHA
    
    Fact is I also believe ND and FSU are the two best teams, I just think
    all the whining is classless.
    
    Seems to me that the BC-ND and FSU-ND was eerily similar. BC had, yes,
    whupped BC, and basically let them back into the game and survived
    at the end. Didn't ND "let" FSU get back into the game last week.
    Seems like FSU was getting whupped in that game also.
    
    So a #17 teaqm comes in and beats ND at home. What did the then #1 team
    do?
    
    Anyway, the best news Tallahassee got was ND losing. Now they don't
    have to worry about losing to ND again, and should romp to the MNC.
    
    See, the squeaky wheel do git the grease.
    
    MikeL
    
    
    
    

    
    
       Hey Chris. Did ya notice how many Big East teams are rated in the
    top 12 of this weeks poll.
    
    
    Chappy

    	Lost in all the BC hoopla is the fact that BU without it's starting
    quarterback and best player beat James Madison to clinch a playoff spot
    in Division II.  The backup quarterback set a school record for yards
    passing.  Boston University has a home game this Saturday at Nickerson
    Field against Nothern Iowa.  A remarkable one season turnaround. 
    Kudos!
    
    				/Don

Let's not down play WVU schedule they beat Miami, ok Miami is not that strong 
this year . FSU beat Miami, so then that game looses merit with Miami as an
opponent. FSU loses to ND which lost to BC, now WVU beats BC, so that has
tremendous weight in favor of WVU, now FSU's schedule begin to lose weight.

Th Big 8 has been down for some years now , so NU has an inflated stature. But
please let's get the right matchup if we end up with 2 11-0 teams.

Suppose ND held on to it's 17 pt. lead, FSU surely drops to below #2, but they
didn't, so why did ND drop 3 spots.


Mike
     

�Suppose ND held on to it's 17 pt. lead, FSU surely drops to below #2, but they
�didn't, so why did ND drop 3 spots.
    
    Because FSU lost to the #2 team while ND lost to the #17 team?

    > Hey Chris. Did ya notice how many Big East teams are rated in the
    > top 12 of this weeks poll.
    
    Any "league" that has a different rag-tag collection of schools in its
    basketball and football conferences doesn't exactly get me all fired up
    Chappy.
    
    Sorry.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
    
        I know nothing gets ya fired up unless Deano's name is in it.
    
    
    Chappy

    What's the deal with Auburn in the combined AP/USAT poll?  Why do they
    belong in there, since it's supposed to be for bowl considerations,
    for which they are ineligible?  It appears that the AP vote is simply 
    doubled to determine Auburn's ranking, and because some yahoo didn't
    vote this week in the AP and that will surely get straightened out by
    next week, Auburn really stands to be #3 ahead of WVU in the combined 
    poll.  I hope Auburn doesn't somehow climb to #2 in this poll next week,
    cancelling out a mandatory #1-#2 matchup.  If something like that
    happens you never know if Notre Dame might get "drafted" by the Orange
    Bowl to play Nebraska over a WVU if FSU loses to Florida...
    
    glenn
    

re 13.344:

>>       And the voters agreed. That's why we're #2.
					   ^^^^^

	How did ACC Chris get into Tommy's account?????

	

	billl

    > How did ACC Chris get into Tommy's account?????
    
    Aw shadup-up billlllllllllll.  We've been over this a million times and
    it's now politically acceptable (if not "correct") to say "we" when
    refering to yer team, providing you've demonstrated the necessary
    loyalty and haven't been bandwagon-jumping.
    
    I'll give Tommy the benefit of the doubt on the later point.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

	Hey acccccchris, pfffffft!

	Yunz can be PC all you want, I still think it sounds a little sckitzo
	to me.


	billl

    Yea, it's especially stupid for you Tommy, seeing's how you've admitted
    to never even been in the state of Florida.  
    
    Haw!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    re: Brydie
    
    So can we assume then that you'll never use that stoopid "we" thing
    again, when referring to you and FSU?
    
    I sure hope so.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

�We've been over this a million times and
�    it's now politically acceptable (if not "correct") to say "we" when
�    refering to yer team, providing you've demonstrated the necessary
�    loyalty and haven't been bandwagon-jumping.
    
    We have and it is?

    Nuttin' personal Chris, but I kinda like that Ack-ptooey!!
    
    Kudos Tommy!!
    MikeL
    

>        I have no emotional stake in either team or either conference but 
>        if you want to see a good competitive Rose Bowl you'd better hope 
>        Wisconsin makes it and not OSU.
    
    Well, now that it's almost certain that Wisconsin will be going to the
    Rose Bowl instead of Ohio State, you can hedge all you like now around
    the Badgers and make whatever boastful claims you wish about how UCLA 
    would have annihilated Ohio State with the confidence that the matchup 
    is unlikely to come off.  It don't much matter now.  Ohio State appears 
    to be headed for the Citrus Bowl where they (or Penn State if Wisconsin
    loses to Michigan St) will actually face a much tougher team than UCLA 
    in the SEC runner-up.  If that's Tennessee or Florida even I don't like 
    their chances too much.
    
    I still don't see how the 9-1-1 team that has largely gotten the job
    done this season is the one that's overrated, validating some critical
    point when it loses (once), but the underachieving 8-3 team's losses 
    to weaker opponents somehow makes their victories all the sweeter.  
    Whatever, like I said before I can't argue with that kind of logic, but
    I concede the point if Ohio St. doesn't meet the criterion for reaching 
    the goal of the Rose Bowl (which UCLA did accomplish).  It's not that big 
    a deal; I'm a fan of the Big-10 but not particularly Ohio St regardless
    of what I might think of their team... 
    
    glenn
    

    Trying to decide if Auburn could make a case for #1 after the bowls.
    
    Tennesseee is 9-1-1(tie with Alabama,loss to Florida)
    Florida is 9-1(who beat them?) 
    
    Is Auburn's biggest win of the year over Alabama? What happens if
    florida beats FSU ,and Alabama in the SEC championship? Would they meet
    ND in the Sugar Bowl.
    
    I agree that FSU is probably the best team in the country on a warm day
    with a dry field. Bobby B panicked bigtime at ND and Lou had a perfect
    game plan,but the Noles would win a bowl game rematch. 
    
    If FSU can win at florida they are probably home free to a national
    championship because they would clobber WVU or Nebraska. But if Florida
    wins and Nebraska and WVU leach lose one of their remaining games,then
    Auburn would have to be #1. 
    
    Any disagreements?
    
    

    
    > Florida is 9-1(who beat them?) 
    
    Auburn.  A very strong quality win for the Tigers.
    
    > Is Auburn's biggest win of the year over Alabama? What happens if
    > florida beats FSU ,and Alabama in the SEC championship? Would they meet
    > ND in the Sugar Bowl.
    
    Only if WVU beats BC, forcing Nebraska-WVU.  If BC wins that game, then 
    it'd be Nebraska-ND.  Florida might be ranked higher than ND but the Orange 
    Bowl would still have first shot at the #3 team (or #4 including Auburn).
    
    As I was just telling MikeL, though, because this SEC championship
    stands a very good chance of pitting two 2-loss teams in Alabama and 
    Florida (if FSU wins) over more highly-ranked Tennessee, it's more
    likely that ND will get drafted by the Cotton Bowl to play the
    overrated SWC conference champ, Texas A&M.  I think I'd rather go to 
    the Citrus Bowl, all things (except probably money) considered.
    
    > If FSU can win at florida they are probably home free to a national
    > championship because they would clobber WVU or Nebraska. But if Florida
    > wins and Nebraska and WVU leach lose one of their remaining games,then
    > Auburn would have to be #1.
    
    Not necessarily.  Florida would have very strong credentials at 12-1 if
    they finish up beating FSU, Alabama, and winning the Sugar Bowl (of
    course Auburn would howl about this having beat Florida, but overall
    their schedule would be nowhere near as impressive).  And if it's Notre 
    Dame that beats Nebraska under these circumstances look for them to steal 
    away with both titles on the strength of two victories against #1s.
    Either of these possibilities would be tough to argue with with Auburn 
    sitting at home not getting a chance to show itself on Jan 1.
    
    I think Auburn needs Nebraska and WVU to take a fall right here and now
    to totally prevent the big "National Championship Game" on New Year's 
    Day.  That kind of thing carries a lot of weight...
    
    glenn
    

    My only disagreement is that NO team on probation should even
    be considered for the national championship. Hey I feel bad for
    the players, but you do the crime, you do the time. Sorry Auburn
    y'alls out.
    
    When is anyone gonna give credit where it's due? ND whupped FSU
    period... The team executed and had their way with FSU, why the
    hail is it because it mighta been bad coaching by Bowden. Give
    ND credit, they kicked FSU's butt physically all over the field.
    What's this with this dry field and warm weather? Is that the only
    conditions football are played? Are you going to excuse the ND win
    away by twp or three "slips" by the FSU people? Hail, the field was
    damp from a rain in the AM and the temp was near 70!! In November
    in South Bend fer crissakes! Give it up. ND matches up well with
    FSU.
    
    The best news FSU had was that BC whipped ND; now they can waltz
    their way to the MNC cuz they ain't gonna have to meet ND and get 
    beaten again.
    
    Period
    
    MikeL
    

    
    Once again you don't have a clue.
    
    I'm talking about the FSU-ND game. Am I incorrect in my analysis
    of the game and the subsequent excuses why FSU lost?  Am I incorrect
    in my assumption that FSU is ecstatic that ND is out of it?
    Have I whined for another shot at the MNC even if I think ND
    is in the top 2? Have I given credit to BC for winning? Have
    I criticized ND and lamented the fact that they blew it themselves?
    
    Everyone who "excuses" FSU for various lame reasons for the loss to
    ND could learn something about class by reading my notes. Not brag
    just fact. 
    
    I've faced the facts that ND blew it themselves. Face the facts
    about FSU... they couldn't beat ND in a rematch but we'll never
    know... our own damn fault. Enjoy the national championship FSU,
    we gave it to ya.
    
    MikeL
    

FSU hasn't won anything yet. If both NU and WVU both win this weekend, they 
should play for the NAtional Title, not FSU. If both WVU and NU lose then
FSU v ND is the ticket. If either NU or WVU lose it's FSU v the remaining
11-0 team.

These are the only valid options in my mind. Ant team in the country would have
had a let down following a 1-2 match. ND happened to go against a very hot 
BC team with a hell of a lot to prove. Heck whose to say BC isn't the best team
in the country right now. Regardless of their #17 ranking they are a very
high qualty team.


Happy Thanksgiving 


Mike

  

                <<< CAM::$1$DUA5:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS.NOTE;1 >>>
                                  -< SPORTS >-
================================================================================
Note 13.373                     College Football                      373 of 373
MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!"            29 lines  24-NOV-1993 11:29
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   >> Am I incorrect in my assumption that FSU is ecstatic that ND 
   >> is out of it?

>>>      How the hell do you know?!?!? Do you think that ND wouldn't love 
>>>      another shot at BC right now?!!? Or is ND so chickenpoop that they
>>>      know they was outplayed and outcoached that they'd rather play a
>>>      real patsy like they have most of the season. FSU ain't afraid to
>>>      play anybody and for you to keep saying that they are is just plain
>>>      dumb.
   
    You're avoiding the question as usual. Answer it. That is my opinion
    and I think I'm allowed that. Of course ND was outplayed and
    outcoached, just like FSU was the week before.  
     
   >> Everyone who "excuses" FSU for various lame reasons for the loss to
   >> ND could learn something about class by reading my notes. Not brag
   >> just fact. 
    
>>>      These kinds of statements are why so many people piped in and said 
>>>      that they were ecstatic that ND got their heads handed to them by a 
>>>      team that doesn't have all the advantages that ND has and they did
>>>      it AT ND. How sweet it is, Baby! And I don't think it's very classy
>>>      to label folks who criticize ND as "drunks" or "vicious" or constantly
>>>      degrade anothers good fortune just because your team failed so miserably.

    
    HAHAHA, for a man who constantly uses double entendre and sarcasm, you
    sure can't recognize it when it's thrown back at ya. Point fer moi.
    Plus, I felt your note was vicious. Read it yourself. You don't think
    so. OK so I threw a insult at George Kimball, same kinda insult he
    threw ND in his feeble journalistic way. So sue me.
    
   >> I've faced the facts that ND blew it themselves. Face the facts
   >> about FSU... they couldn't beat ND in a rematch but we'll never
   >> know... 
      
   >>>   Again, how the hell do you know? Do you think that there's no way
   >>>   ND could beat BC in a rematch? Of course, you don't. The same emotion
   >>>   won't be there, different game plans, different field conditions, etc.
   >>>   Like I said before take it to the Whining Sore Losers note.    
    
     I'm allowed my opinion. And who is talking BC-ND? Do you require
    any other team's fortune (BC) tio degrade another's (ND) when your
    own team (FSU) couldn't do it.  (Refer to your own words above).
    I've stated that I believe FSU is one of the top two teams in the
    country (this AFTER the loss to ND) so good luck to them. Bemused
    I sat as I saw all the "excuses" pouring in why FSU lost to ND
    (wet field, too cool, at ND, neutral field, panicky decisions,
    bad day,balah, blah, blah, and btw I don't mean you personally
    cuz you mained up, after a while). I offer no excuses about
    ND-BC. We was whupped period and offer up no excuses (week after
    FSU, letdown, bad day, panicky coaching decision, etc). 
    
    And I ain't whining and you know it. I'm pissed at ND.  Do I think
    BC would win a rematch.. no. Do I think FSU would win a rematch.. no.
    My opinion and I'm allowed.
    
    
    MikeL
    
    

    I think last week Tommy made the case pretty eloquently for Florida
    St. being hard up against it in any rematch with Notre Dame.  Considering 
    all of that stuff I heard about ND's superior talent and with ND 
    holding a head-to-head decision in hand, I'm assuming that he'd still 
    rank ND ahead of FSU at this time.  No jab here; even though I myself 
    thought that the case for ND's talent was exaggerated, Tommy was 
    essentially honest about the comparison.  Unfortunately, he ain't one 
    of the voters.  ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    
    
    >> so sue me....
    
    
    
    Ahem, Mr. Leary?  Allow me to introduce myself.  I'm Ur Nightmare,
    associated with the Firm of Dewey, Sooem, and Howe.  It seems
    we're beet retained by a Mister Thomas Brydie..........
    
    
    

	Hey take this to the Notre Dame note.  The one exclusively set up 
for a school with its own television network, its own "mystique" (see 
Saturday's call negating a B.C. touchdown) and its own video collection 
documenting the greatest moments in Notre Dame lore (full set available 
for $59.95).

				/Don

�It seems
�    we're beet retained by a Mister Thomas Brydie..........
    
    Sounds like they're going to take it easy on you, Mike.  Good thing
    Dewey, Sooem and Howe weren't radish retained.

    
>    You assume wrong, Marshall Faulkner. ND had an obvious talent advantage
>    over BC for all the good it did them. Stick to your role as resident 
>    apologist for hire and don't be putting words in my mouth.
    
    Hey, no problem, like I said it wasn't a jab.  I was half-defending you
    by pointing out that last week you were honest about FSU's chances, and 
    that it has nothing to do with your opinion either way that the 
    pollsters regard FSU as the better team, in all likelihood knocking ND 
    out of the picture.  If you'd rather feel defensive about an apparent 
    lapse where you let your lack of faith in FSU show for a moment, be my 
    guest.
    
    glenn
    

    	Florida State and West Virginia have to lose in order for the NDC
    coalition to get their dream matchup game of Nebraska vs. Notre Dame in
    the Orange Bowl.  Maybe the REFS� at Chestnut Hill and Tallahassee can
    shake down the thunder from the sky?  I wouldn't bet against it.
    
    				/Don

    Fortune may finally be shining on two teams that have done their share
    of gagging in recent years: FSU and Nebraska.
    
    I am in no way trying to make excuses for FSU,they were beaten by ND in
    a game that shouldn't have been so close. Even if the ACC is overrated
    and weaker than the Big East,the Noles still have an impressive
    non-conference record:
    
    42-0 against Kansas which lost 21-20 to Nebraska forsaking a tie.
    28-10 against Miami which barely lost to WVU.
    road loss to ND and the defining game of their season at Florida. If
    they can beat the Gators they should play for number 1 against one of
    the 11-0's-probably Nebraska. 
    
    Nebraska has had a few decent wins and should be able to win at home
    against Oklahoma,but Osborne's teams have not done well in big games at
    home in recent years.
    
    WVU is being hurt by several things:
    1)Being unranked for several weeks.
    2)Being blown out by ND in the 1989 Fiesta Bowl when they were 11-0.
    3)Unimpressive results in the first part of the season-especially a
    close call against mediocre Lousiville.
    
    What we must remember-and thei is frequently forgotten-is that the MNC
    should be handed out to a team for it acheviements throught the season
    and not just on New Years Day and in November.

    Well, geez, Tommy, I guess you're just going to have to keep breaking
    it down for dummies like me who have a hard time distinguishing an
    opinion like this one:
    
>       Could FSU have beaten ND 
>       on New Year's Day? No doubt about it.
    
    from an opinion like the following that was registered only a week ago:
    
> I entered a note
> in here after the UNC game and said that I was scared that ND was going to 
> be able to run all over us. Of course, Leary immediately accused me of sand-
> bagging but I was being genuine. We're too small upfront. Unless we execute
> perfectly we'll get stomped by teams that run as well as ND does...
    
    I guess I see your point if it's that anybody can beat anybody if
    things go perfectly, but there's not a whole lot of meaning to that,
    now is there?  Hardly a reason to level a vicious attack at someone who
    merely was trying to help out in a flamefest that was headed nowhere...
    
    ;-)
    
    glenn
     

    Yer right
    
    This flamefest is heading nowhere. Tommy cain't remember what he
    said one week to the next.
    
    Well let's see how mighty the 'Noles are this weekend. They are 10+
    point favorite at Florida. That's says a mouthful there. Actually
    FSU should cover, they have so much coaching splendor and talent
    (this, well half, ain't sarcasm, guess I have to point it out).
    
    Slash, sometimes good things come for those who wait. I'm waiting
    for NU, FSU, WVU to go down; any 2 out of 3 will do. But alas,
    I'll probably be waiting till next year..
    
    Hey speaking of Auburn, can't you tell the close family bond
    between the haid coaches of Auburn and FSU.  Why one team drops
    its time-honored rivalry with Samford and the other one picks
    it up. I love loyalty. ( Umm, do I have to flag this?).
    
    And Kev, I'm not worried, I've retained the services of that
    famous barrister firm  Fleecem, Cheatem, and M.B.U. Lance Chaser.
    
    HTH
    MikeL
    

    No time to add up last weeks folly, but it was around a -1000!!!!
    
    BC will stomp West Virginia.  1000
    
    Nebraska will romp over Oklahoma securing our bid for the MNC.  500
    
    ASU is going to send AU home weeping.  500
    
    SorryExcuse rebounds to paste Rutgers.  500
    
    Florida scores late to cover against Fl St. 500
    
    IM JIMBO

�    What we must remember-and thei is frequently forgotten-is that the MNC
�    should be handed out to a team for it acheviements throught the season
�    and not just on New Years Day and in November.
    
    Notre Dame certainly remembers.  Otherwise why would they be dropped
    below a team they beat just a couple of weeks ago?

�Couple that with the fact that Marshall
�      hadn't been on national tv all year and I think you get my point.
    
    Gee, then who did I see playing for San Diego State on a Thursday night
    at my local watering hole?

    >    ASU is going to send AU home weeping.  500
    
                              ^^ this should be Nogales Tech

>      Can the good samaritan act, you just wanted in on the action.
>      And it wasn't a vicious attack. I was just letting you know
>      that I'm hip to you.
    
    And a Happy Thanksgiving to you too, Thomas!
    
>      I read your note touting Marshall Faulk
>      as the Pats picks, saying things like "can do it all" and
>      "even if he isn't in the Heisman race" et cetera, et cetera,
    
    You mean that you have to read the Globe to get that kind of startling
    information, that Marshall Faulk has been eliminated from the Heisman
    race, or that he even exists before he's been on national TV?  Thanks 
    for the tip.  I'll continue to look there for the kind of extensive 
    college football coverage that only the Boston Globe can deliver.
    
>      Kind of made me wonder why you were so high on Drew Bledsoe last 
>      year when he hadn't been on tv either.
    
    Hmmm, who did the Patriots pick, many months after I said I'd prefer 
    to see a prototype franchise QB in NE like Bledsoe, before any of the
    draft experts had made their official proclamations?  Similar to the
    situation with Bledsoe, with Faulk I only made the innocent point that
    he's a similar franchise-caliber player that shouldn't be passed over 
    *in response to an on-going, unrelated discussion* that the Patriots 
    shouldn't look at running backs because they're all set there with
    Leonard Russell and Co.  It appeared that you actually agreed with the
    opinion, but still couldn't pass up the chance to take a swipe with 
    this fabrication.  In any case, I take this month-old Faulk obfuscation 
    as an admission that you're coming up dry on any relevant mud to sling
    today.  He's defending Notre Dame (not really), and he likes Marshall 
    Faulk 'cause the Globe says so!  Huh?
    
    You see, Tommy, I can derive an opinion from a variety of sources 
    combined with a little bit of common sense, which is my right.  You
    disagree, that's fine, no problem.  Unlike yourself, I don't place 
    much emphasis on any single game on TV, reach a conclusion, then watch 
    another game the next week and turn that opinion upside-down, 
    alternatively insulting anyone with the audacity to question either 
    one.  Sure, I'll have my fun like everyone else with a jab here and
    there, but I don't think you really do know me so well.
    
    glenn
    

    When does "it" become official?
    
    Is there another poll that can change the standings for the coalition
    or should we all prepare for another Orange Bowl blowout?
    
    MikeL
    

    I'm not sure who was more unimpressive (and lucky) this weekend, 
    Nebraska or West Virginia.  As has been their habit during the Gary 
    Gibbs regime, Oklahoma controlled the OU-NU game pretty well through 
    three quarters but were completely unable to get out of their own way.
    Nebraska's defense was adequate considering the weather, but their
    offense and particularly their running game were near-nonexistent.
    BC's dominance of WVU was greater, though, I suppose.  Big East 
    commissioner Mike Tranghese has it exactly right: the argument should 
    be between Nebraska and WVU (and even Notre Dame and probably a couple
    others if there were no bowl commitments) for the right to face 
    Florida St.  The vote has gone the way of Nebraska, and I'm not
    completely sold on that, but the crying about FSU and even personal 
    insults from Don Nehlen (mainly directed at Lee Corso for stating the 
    obvious about FSU's firepower) are ridiculous.  You may indeed have 
    gotten screwed, Don, but such a superior team as FSU with their schedule 
    and performance ain't the culprit.  Suck it up and devote your energies
    to strengthening your program and your schedule.  I haven't seen that 
    side of the much-respected Nehlen before, and it wasn't pretty.  
    
    I'm also surprised at the number of sportswriters (obviously not the 
    majority from the AP poll) who are willing to toss their objectivity 
    aside and scream that bowl politics are working against these great 
    undefeateds like WVU (or Nebraska, had they finished #3) in favor of 
    the system's darlings, Florida St.  As if after all they've done in 
    laying it on the line out of conference, there wouldn't have been any
    politics involved in sending the Seminoles home.  Sorry guys, but for
    my money the vote should go with the team willing to risk an occasional 
    loss while providing the big game entertainment during the regular
    season.  The voters are supposedly bound to give their opinion of who
    the best teams are, and charity shouldn't be a factor.  Some of the
    guys who scream about mismatches and creampuff scheduling in college
    football are the same ones feigning outrage over this (why not? 
    controversy keeps them employed... Mike Lupica's name in particular 
    seems to keep coming up when "Righteous Indignation" is the Final 
    Jeopardy topic of the day...)
    
    glenn
    

    Yabbut glenn,
    
    I got a huge kick outta Nehlen's emotionalism, displaced or not.
    His diatribe agin Corso was great "FSU grad who couldn't win a
    g$*damn game in his life". Much better than hearing a Lou Holtz-type
    syrupy BS session.
    
    And having watched the Nebraska-OU and BC-WVU game, I've changed my
    mind. The hail with these two teams; FSU, ND and mebbe Tenn and Auburn
    would mop 'em up.
    
    MikeL
     

There's no question that FSU has a legit calimn at #1. But in going what been
some what stats quo , there should be a game between the 2 undefeated's.
In my eye's it's a plain old case of discrimanation against WVU. Each fall
each time starts at 0-0, so by right each school has a chance to become
national champs. NU and WVU did all they had to, win each game. FSU did not.
So now the god's say WVU's performance means squat. What gives here. If this
was U Miami, they'ed be no questions .

Who decides the schedules, NU and WVU beat all teams in there conf. What did
FSU 's schedule consists of otehr than a game against ND.

Mike

FSU, also had plenty of luck in their corner as well. One catch by the ND 
linebacker in hte BC game instead of zipping thru his hands and FSU watches
from home.


MM

      I agree with the undefeated teams going head to head for the
    chumpeenchip.  FSU and ND had their chances, and both lost big games. I
    believe that both those teams are better than NU,  but they still lost
    1 game.  WVU is getting screwed!  To bad Auburn is on probation, 'cause
    they deserve a shot as well.
    
      Of course a playoff system would resolve all of this...
    
    
      Then again,  this is only college football (-)
    
      Tim

	I agree with the previous noter.  WV had their chance and got
totally dominated by BC and was very lucky to emerge victorious.  With 
no championship game, the way you win DOES make a difference and WV knew
that.  Also, Look at the schedule and how they did against the bowl teams.
Fl St played 6 bowl teams (lost to one) and won by an average of 25+ points.  
Nebraska played 5 bowl teams and won by an average of 12+ points and
WV played 4 bowl teams and won by an average of 5 points.  These numbers are
from memory but can be checked in the Monday globe.

	WV is actually very lucky that they aren't in Nebraska's shoes.
Nebraska will lose big time to Fl St (as would WV) and if WV wins their
bowl game they might get a share of the national title (coaches poll).
I don't think they would have a chance if they played Fl St.

    Meanwhile, BU stages a come from behind victory and advances to the
    next round.

 Are we seeing the effects of "UNder a Tarnished Dome" this year? I can't
 think of any other season in my life where ND wasn't sittin' where Fla St.
 is when they've shared equal records and ND has a victory over said "team"..

 Even if the book is Rubish as MikeL claims, I can't thank the authors enough.
............

 ;6)

Word is that West Virginia is passing up the Cotton Bowl to play in
the Sugar Bowl.  The Sugar Bowl payout is $4.15 mil as compared to
$3.0 mil for the Cotton.  If this happens, then the Cotton Bowl will
most likely be a rematch of last year.  That is, Notre Dame and Texas
A&M.

As I'm an Aggie, this is bad news.  I think A&M would hold their
own against WVU, but I don't think we can handle Notre Dame, in
spite of what Lou Holtz will say.  No doubt, it will be the best
Texas A&M team that ND will face this year.  It's sort of an unusual
thing, but I think that ND is getting shafted in the ratings
this year.  IMHO, they should be ranked ahead of FSU, but that's
another issue.

If WVU does go to the Sugar, there is a chance that they will play
16th ranked Alabama rather than 9th ranked Florida.  I wouldn't think
that beating a 16th ranked team will do much for their MNC hopes.  On
the other hand, if they could soundly trounce the 6th ranked Aggies,
it might give add some credence to their #1 claim.  I guess you pay
your dime and take your chances.

Jerry

    If there were a 16 team playoff, like every other college football
    division plays, there would be some great opening round matchups,
    going by the AP poll.  This year, #17 would play #1, since #4 Auburn is
    ineligible.  Here's how the matchups would be:
    
    #1 Florida State  	\
    #17 Arizona	        /
    #10 Wisconsin	\
    #9 Florida		/
    
    #6 Tennessee	\
    #13 Penn State	/
    #14 UCLA		\
    #5 Notre Dame	/
    
    #3 West Virginia	\
    #15 Boston College	/
    #12 North Carolina  \
    #7 Texas A&M	/
    
    #8 Miami		\
    #11 Ohio State	/
    #16 Alabama		\
    #2 Nebraska		/
    
    There are some great first round matchups, not the least of which is a
    BC - W Va. rematch.  This would be a lot of fun, so of course it would
    never happen.
    
    NAZZ

    Yea,
    Just what every ND fan wants, a rematch with A&M in the Cotton.
    Actually this isd one year that A&M would welcome the Irish. What
    the hell does ND gain besides dinero in playing A&M? Wail I'll tellya.
    We think longterm in South Bend and the HS market in Texass is
    supposed to be richer than Calif and Florida thised year. Cain you say
    "Y'all will have a good time playing fer the Irish, son... 8^)
    
    All this BS points to a playoff system definitely. It looks like
    me Irish arte gettin' the shaft, but they was #1 and lost so we'll
    shaddap.
    
    BTW, not that it matters, but ah wouldn't be pattin' meself for
    a montrous-type schedule if I was the Noles... No doubt it was
    the toughest in the nation with non-con games agin UF, Miami and
    ND but their 9 conference games were all cake (including faux
    UNC and Virginia). What was their margin of victory agin ACC foes,
    30+ points? Definite kuodos for their non-con games, but they wasn't
    exactly playing the '72 Miami Dolphins for their 9 conference games.
    Not a criticism cuz FSU is the best in the country(with me alma mater
    8^), but let's not get all genuflectin' over their schedule...
    Jest a dose of reality. Sure beats NU's and WVU's IMO.
    
    
    
    MikeL
    
    Yo childsey, mebbe Lou's act is wearin' thin on the coaches. Methinks
    a vote agin ND is a vote agin Holtz's lame act 8^)
    

    The posting of those delicious 1st-round NCAA College Football games we
    won't get to see (FSU vs. Nebraska for a Title?!  Gimmee a break.  The
    Noles will win by 3+ TD's.) makes me sad.  [Sniff, sniff]
    
    The sickening part is the old, blue-haired, dinasours with all their
    old money who have their greedy, grubby tentacles in a vice-like grip
    on the status-quo.  
    
    Sickening.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

�  What I want to know is, who is that one coach who keeps voting ND #1?
� Could it be...? Naaaah.
    
    It couldn't possibly be Holtz.  He has come out many times on TeeVee
    and said that ND isn't a good football team.

A playoff system is a must. I wouldn't go wth 16 teams, maybe 8 tops.

Looking back to recent years how many undisputed title games have there been.
Maybe every few years we get some turmoil like this year. But in general there
is usually a 1-2 matchup.

It's a shame teams like BYU and Colorado with that unforgetable 5th down game
and seeing a game winning TD get called back on ND, still reap a Natl. Champ.
While WVU gets nutta for their work.

Mike
 

    Why is a playoff needed for a bunch of student atheletes?  Why make
    these students miss even more class time to play a bunch more games
    just to make a few sportswriters, alums, and alum-wannabees happy?

> It's a shame teams like BYU and Colorado with that unforgetable 5th down game
> and seeing a game winning TD get called back on ND, still reap a Natl. Champ.
> While WVU gets nutta for their work.
    
    Now Mike, why are you going and busting on another undefeated team in 
    BYU that did "everything that was asked of them" when WVU is in a very
    similar position, boasting these wonderful victories over bowl teams 
    like Louisville and Virginia Tech, not to mention squeakers against the
    likes of woeful Maryland and the generally weak Big East?  I think WVU 
    is going to get their heads handed to them in the Sugar Bowl to make 
    all this a moot point, but if they don't and they manage to win, you 
    don't have to worry; as has been mentioned they will probably get
    theirs in one of the polls just as BYU, Colorado, and Georgia Tech did.
    
    glenn
     

    re: .417
    
    Small nit:
    
    FSU played 8 ACC games. Their fourth out of conference game was a 42-0
    win over the same Kansas team that refused a 21-21 tie at Lincoln to go
    for the win and came up short,21-20.
    
    Of the ACC teams:Maryland,Duke and Wake are horrible.
                     Georgia Tech was weak
                     Virginia faded badly after the FSU game but was 5-0
                     going in
                     Clemson and State were 8-3 and UNC was a strong 10-2,
                     I don't know who else they lost to.
    
    Isn't ND going to the Sugar? or is it WVu's choice? 
    

My, point in BYU was that we all know they were not that strong but one a 
title anyways, yet WVU won't be as fortunate. Double standard I guess. Gotta
vote that undeated team # 1 , back in what 84 - 85 ???.


Let's decide it on the field not on paper. In any game any day anything is 
possible.

mike 

                <<< CAM::$1$DUA5:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS.NOTE;1 >>>
                                  -< SPORTS >-
================================================================================
Note 13.409                     College Football                      409 of 415
MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!"             3 lines  29-NOV-1993 14:59
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>  What I want to know is, who is that one coach who keeps voting ND #1?
>> Could it be...? Naaaah.
    
Could be.... Bobby Bowden
    
    MikeL
    
    

    
    	The big thing is that FSU played a tougher schedule than UWV. FSU
    out of conference games were Notre Dame, Florida, Kansas, and Miami.
    All 4 of those teams are going to bowl games, out of 11 teams FSU
    played 7 are going to bowl games. The bottom tear of the BE is not strong
    and UWV played only 4 bowl teams (Miami, BC, Virgina Tech, ?),. Another
    thing to look at, (which I don't have in front of me.) Is look at the
    winning percentage of the teams FSU played compared to UWV. FSU
    opponents won around 58% of there games, while UWV opponents winning
    percentage was down around 43%.
    	It stinks that UWV played there schedule and won't get a shot at
    the MNC. I'm glad that the voters are reconizing the tough schedule of
    FSU. I hated in the past when a team like BYU can play an easy
    schedule. Then because there conference plays the holiday bowl or
    something, getting an easy bowl win, and the MNC along with it.
    
    Ron

Las Vegas			Dec. 17	Big West champ vs MAC champ
					Utah St vs Ball St

John Hancock			Dec. 24	Coalition vs coalition
					Texas Tech vs Oklahoma

Jeep Eagle Aloha		Dec. 25	WAC #2 or at-large vs Big8 #3
					Fresno St vs Colorado

St. Jude's Liberty		Dec. 28	Service academy or at-large vs
					at-large
					Louisville vs Michigan St
					(Service academies did not qualify)

Weiser Lock Copper		Dec. 29	WAC #2/#3 or at-large vs Big8 #4
					Wyoming vs Kansas St

Thrifty Holiday			Dec. 30	WAC champ vs Big10 #3
					BYU vs Wisconsin/Ohio St
					(Ohio St if Wisonsin wins)

Freedom				Dec. 30	PAC10 #2 vs at-large
					Southern Cal vs Utah

Poulan/Weed Eater Independence	Dec. 31	At-large vs at-large
					Va Tech vs Indiana

Peach				Dec. 31	ACC #3 vs SEC #4
					Clemson vs Kentucky

Outback Steakhouse Gator	Dec. 31	Coalition vs SEC #3
					No Carolina vs Florida/Alabama
					(loser of game)

Alamo				Dec. 31	SWC #3 vs Pac10 #4
					Iowa vs California
					(SWC #3 did not qualify)

Hall of Fame			Jan. 1	ACC #4 vs Big10 #4
					NC State vs Michigan

CompUSA Florida Citrus		Jan. 1	SEC #2 vs Big10 #2
					Tennessee vs Penn St

Mobil Cotton			Jan. 1	SWC champ vs coalition
					Texas A&M vs Notre Dame

Carquest			Jan. 1	BigEast #3 vs SEC #5
					Boston College vs Virginia
					(SEC #5 did not qualify)

IBM OS/2 Fiesta			Jan. 1	Coalition vs coalition
					Arizona vs Miami-FL

Rose				Jan. 1	PAC10 champ vs Big10 champ
					UCLA vs Wisconsin/Ohio St
					(Wisconsin if it wins)

Federal Express Orange		Jan. 1	Big8 champ vs coalition
					Nebraska vs Florida St

USF&G Sugar			Jan. 1	SEC champ vs coalition
					Florida/Alabama vs West Virginia
					(winner of game)

    	Doncha just miss the old days when it just used to be the Sun Bowl,
    Liberty Bowl, Sugar Bowl, Orange Bowl, etc before corporate sponsers
    stepped in? 

Stoopid question time:

What happens if Ohio State beats Wisconson?  Will they win the Big10?  Is Penn
State #2 no matter what happens?

Confused =Bob=

    if Wisconsin loses Ohio St. goes to the Rose Bowl.
    
    TTom, can you post the AP and UPI top 5 rankings
    with point totals. thanks
    
    The Crazy Met
    

All I gots is the USA Today/CNN Coaches poll which is one half of the
Bowl Coalition.

1. Nebraska (43) 1525
2. West Virginia (8) 1477
3. Florida St (10) 1448
4. Notre Dame (1) 1367
5. Tennessee (0) 1276

TTom

> What happens if Ohio State beats Wisconson?  Will they win the Big10?  Is Penn
> State #2 no matter what happens?
    
    Somehow Penn State finagled their way into a guaranteed Citrus Bowl
    date with Tennessee, regardless of what happens in the Mich St-Wisconsin 
    game.  This is even though they're #2 in the Big-10 if Wisconsin loses 
    and #3 if Wisconsin wins, by conference record, overall record, and poll 
    rank.  Ohio St. is getting screwed over here but good if Wisconsin wins,
    receiving a date in the Holiday Bowl against a weak BYU or Wyoming team,
    while Penn State gets a shot to redeem itself against one of the
    strongest teams in the country.  I don't expect Penn State to win, but
    if they somehow pull it off (like they did against Tennessee in the
    Fiesta in 1991, with a much stronger team though), they'll land in the
    rankings somewhere near #5-#7, which is preposterous considering that 
    they got whomped by Ohio St and Michigan and didn't play Wisconsin, but
    which is the way things work with the post-bowl fallout.
    
    glenn
      

    Penn State should not have gotten the auto bid over a superior Ohio
    State team(assuming Wisonsin wins),but the Nittany Lions bring a huge 
    guaranteed throng to any bowl game and of course this is the first
    thing the promoters look at.
    
    Tennessee should win by two touchdowns.

>    Penn State should not have gotten the auto bid over a superior Ohio
>    State team(assuming Wisonsin wins),but the Nittany Lions bring a huge 
>    guaranteed throng to any bowl game and of course this is the first
>    thing the promoters look at.
    
    Sure, but Ohio State can guarantee the very same throng, if not a
    bigger one this year with a 9-1-1 team.  I really don't git it.  "The 
    Alliance" billed this game all along as a matchup between conference 
    runners-up from the SEC and Big-10, but obviously yet another "escape 
    clause" was invoked.  Perhaps they felt they had to announce the 
    matchup this week, and with the late Wisconsin-Mich St game fouling
    things up, went with the best team with no possible Rose Bowl chances.
    That's the only thing I can figure.
    
    glenn
    

As the Citrus Bowl is billed, Tennessee shouldn't be there either. It
claims to have the SEC #2 team. Seems to me that's the loser of the
Championship game between Florida and Alabama. The winner's the champs
and the loser's the runner up.

TTom

       
> As the Citrus Bowl is billed, Tennessee shouldn't be there either. It
> claims to have the SEC #2 team. Seems to me that's the loser of the
> Championship game between Florida and Alabama. The winner's the champs
> and the loser's the runner up.
    
    Yeah, you've got that divisional mess, though, with Alabama clearly
    sitting in 4th place overall right now (behind ineligible Auburn, 
    Tennessee, and Florida) by almost any standard that accounts for the
    imbalance in the SEC.  I don't know how the SEC makes the official 
    determination, but I don't have a problem with Tennessee being 
    designated as runner-up, and they are certainly more attractive 
    than the loser of the SEC championship game.
    
    glenn
    

This year's it's called the Carquest.

TTom

Just heard that Alabama defensive back Antonio Langham has been declared
ineligible. It seems that he contacted a_agent, which is a no-no.

TTom

    I heard he signed a contract with an agent just after the Sugar Bowl
    last year. Anyone corroborate?
    
    MikeL
    
    

>>   <<< Note 13.433 by CTHQ::LEARY "Corporate Telecom Technology Solutions" >>>
>>                                    -< ?? >-
>>
>>    I heard he signed a contract with an agent just after the Sugar Bowl
>>    last year. Anyone corroborate?
    
MikeL,

I just read a copyrighted UPI article that confirms this.  According to
the article, Alabama cornerback Antonio Langham has been declared
ineligible for signing with Washington-based agent Daryl Dennis in
January.  The signing took place after the Sugar Bowl game.

The article also states that his eligibility could be restored by the
NCAA.
    
The question that this raises in my mind is what about the games in
which Langham played?  He should have been ineligible the minute that
he signed the contract, so shouldn't Alabama be forced to forfeit all
of the games in which he played?  If this happened to one of the teams
on the NCAA's hit list (Auburn, Oklahoma, any SWC school, for example),
I wonder if the situation would be treated differently.

For example, Texas A&M may still face further sanctions because some
of the players were payed, by A&M alums, for work that they didn't do.
Even though all of these players have re-payed the money, and have
either been suspended for several games or kicked off of the team,
and it's been proven that A&M had nothing to do with this, the A&M 
program is facing charges of not exercising adequate supervision
(or some such wording) over it's student athletes.  Seems like
this situation with Langham ought to fall into this same gray area.
    
Oh well, off of my soapbox.  But it will be interesting to see how the
NCAA deals with this.

Jerry

I just read a copyrighted UPI article that claims that "Notre Dame will
reportedly pull out of the college football bowl coalition due to
dissatisfaction over the lack of control over its post-season destiny."

The article further states that WSCR Radio in Chicago is reporting
that Notre Dame will make the move after this season's bowl game.  The
station is quoting sources close the the athletic department.

Jerry

Subject: Notre Dame reportedly will pull out of bowl coalition
Keywords: college football, football, men's college
Copyright: 1993 by UPI, R
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 93 16:27:07 PST
Location: illinois, indiana
ACategory: sports
Slugword: fbc-irish
Priority: daily
Format: daily
ANPA: Wc: 161/161; Id: s1673; Src: upi; Sel: ns--s; Adate: 11-30-N/A
Approved: [email protected]
Codes: ut, upi1355, o., to, upi, ysfcdxx., &sfcdil., &sfcdin., //ns--s/,
	ns--s
Lines: 15

	CHICAGO (UPI) -- Notre Dame reportedly will pull out of the college
football bowl coalition due to dissatisfaction over the lack of control
over its post-season destiny.
	WSCR Radio in Chicago is reporting Tuesday that Notre Dame will make
the move after this season's bowl games. The station quoted sources
close to the Notre Dame athletic department.
	The Fighting Irish (10-1), who are ranked fourth, are expected to
play in either the Cotton or Sugar Bowl on New Year's Day depending on
what West Virginia decides to do.
	Notre Dame was set to play in a national championship game after its
victory over Florida State Nov. 13, but fell out of the title picture
when it lost a home game to Boston College the following Saturday.
	The bowl coalition was formed to determine a picking order for the
bowl games and help insure that there would be a national championship
game.

    Those whiners think they should win it when they have 5 losses.

    
> I just read a copyrighted UPI article that claims that "Notre Dame will
> reportedly pull out of the college football bowl coalition due to
> dissatisfaction over the lack of control over its post-season destiny."
    
    Sorry, but it really is pathetic that Notre Dame is pulling out
    with a justification that reads pretty much like the charter of the 
    coalition in the first place.  The thing was designed to promote better
    bowl matchups and prevent early inside deals, and as such take some 
    control away from both the bowl committees and the Notre Dames of the
    world.  From purely a competition standpoint (obviously not an economic
    one) it was bad enough that Notre Dame would be guaranteed a top-4 bowl
    slot regardless of record, but apparently even that wasn't good enough.
    You have to take the good with the bad, boys.
    
    What's happened here is that little ol' West Virginia has put a major
    crimp in the designs of the powers that be.  The Cotton Bowl prefers 
    WVU (but doesn't mind ND), the Sugar wants ND, ND wants the Sugar, but 
    of all schools, apparently WVU was the one to invoke one of these 
    poorly-advertised sell-out clauses to gain a berth in the Sugar and
    foul things up for everybody but themselves.  This wasn't supposed to 
    happen.  With the "bowl draft" and the exception clauses, it was 
    supposed to be the bowls and the Notre Dames that would set the 
    matchups (after the mandatory #1-#2 matchup that makes sense for
    everyone).  Hence the fall-out...
    
    Hey /Don, what's the deal with ND causing trouble for NBC by not
    wanting to go to one of their bowls (again) and publicly saying so?  ;-)
    
       
    glenn
    

    While understanding ND's dissatisfaction on not controlling their
    own destiny (media, coaches polls, home loss), I don't understand
    the timing of this announcement if true. Does them no good publicity-
    wise to "take their ball and go home" at this time.
    In fact, Idon't know what they're *that* dissatisfied with.
    True, I believe they're getting squeezed, and the coalition is outta
    whack, but the timing is awful
    Re-address it after the bowls, ND.
    
    
    MikeL
    

    MikeL, they very much controlled their own destiny -- or is it the
    coalition's fault they lost at home to a team 16 places below them in
    the rankings?

    I heard yesterday that ND was STRONGLY denying the story.  Supposedly
    it originated from Chicago Radio Station.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

I just read another UPI article on Alabama LB Antonio Langham.  There
is a passage in this article that I just have to quote.  Here it is.

"The school has asked the NCAA to restore Langham's eligibility,
contending that he unknowingly signed the contract with the agent
and took $400."

The article also states that the NCAA has stated that "the Crimson
Tide's record and right to play in the postseason will not be
affected by the case...".

Jerry

	You vill sign zee papers!

	I can't sign the papers.

	Ant vy not?

	Cause you have broken both of my hands.



	billl

	Notre Dame has decided that if it can't win they will take their ball 
and go home.  At least this exposes the facade that Notre Dame is all that 
is good about college athletics.  Notre Dame is all about power & money 
and they are shamelessly flaunting that fact with this latest power move.
My guess is the CFA will put as much pressure as possible on all the 
networks not to sign an exclusive deal like the one that NBC now has when the 
current contract expires.  They will probably try to persuade the bowls not 
to sign with any network that does deal with Notre Dame.  Course Notre 
Dame could sign with FOX and host their own bowl.  Hey maybe they could 
call it the Whiney Sore Loser Bowl.

				/Don                         

yeah...Notre Dame vs. either Arizona team....every year...



If this gem doesn't squash the idea that Notre Dame isn;t the most self
serving school ever than nothing will.

Metz

    ND won't schedule us during the season, why would they want to play us
    in a bowl?

    I mainly disagree with bthe timing of this notification, if true,
    which I have a hard time believing.  If ND has issues with the
    coalition, it should bring them up after the bowl games.
    
    After all, which school in the country is NOT self serving in
    principal. Please step up. 
    
    And Mac, while I can understand ND's concerns about "controlling
    their own destiny(re. being able to position themselves for a
    bowl game to win the MNC), I disagree with the premise mostly.
    They were #1, and lost it. I have heard rumblings, not whining, that
    ND would like to be given a second chance ala FSU, but it is
    mostly understood it will not happen. This year, FSU is the media/
    coaches darlin', and ND has knowingly been in that position before.
    I think most ND people who bitch about this are pissed at lost
    opportunity, and refer to thex 1989-90 season and post season where th
    circumstances are very similar.
    
    And I do wish ND would table this for now and voice their concerns
    with other coalition members AFTER the bowl games.
    
    Yo Heiser,
    Why would ND be skeered to play "you" whatever the hell that refers
    to in this case (ASU?). We'd have to play the dominant Arizona team
    first located down the road a spell, or have you forgotten yer
    geography?
    
    MikeL
    

Wail, it turns out that the bowls are gonna wait until nexted weekend's
vote before formally extending invitatoins.

The Coalition wanted to settle everything before this week's games. The
Sugar Bowl balked at accepting the proposal that would have locked them
into West Virginia versus the SEC champ, Florida or Alabama. The lure
there is the possibility of somehow the Sugar Bowl can move into a
position to invite Notre Dame. For that to happen, Florida, currently
#10, would have to beat the begeezus outta the Tide and leapfrog #7 
Texas A&M. 

The net effect is that there will be one more vote in the polls after
which no one expects any changes from what is being predicted.
The question that I have is can't the voters now change their mind? 
Can't somebody who voted for Florida St switch to WVU realizing that no
one wants to see the Noles wallop the Huskers again?

TTom

    
    don't laugh me out of this conference, but somewhere in the
    cobwebs that is my brain, I seem to recall a team with the
    name "Boilermakers".....do they exist and who are they?!?!

>    don't laugh me out of this conference, but somewhere in the
>    cobwebs that is my brain, I seem to recall a team with the
>    name "Boilermakers".....do they exist and who are they?!?!

Sure.

Purdue Boilermakers....


Shot and a beer is better though.....


'Saw

>>                     <<< Note 13.450 by AIMHI::CORRIGAN >>>
>>                      -< not the shot and a beer variety >-

>>    name "Boilermakers".....do they exist and who are they?!?!

The team/school to which you refer is Purdue University.  They're
in the state of Indiana in the the Big 10/11 conference.

Jerry

    
    thank you both. could you get me an answer a little quicker next
    time!!!
    
    ;^)
    
    Joe

    Boliermakers???  Hmm... Where are they???
    
    Hanging out in the College Basketball note with the Illini.
    
    Murph
    

    Notre Dame Offensive tackle Aaron Taylor was named the recipient of
    this year's Lombardi Trophy.
    
    
    MikeL
    

>    Notre Dame Offensive tackle Aaron Taylor was named the recipient of
>    this year's Lombardi Trophy.
    
    
#75, right?    

>     I don't think that they've given out nearly that many.

No, actually, this is the 23rd they've given out, since Lombardi died
in 1970 and that's when it started.

But, since ND don't wear names, I know the guys by number, and I was
wonderin' if it was that huge, fast dude, who looks really scary, who
wears #75.....


'Saw

    Yea, #75, that's he. Kinda looks like a_athletic Uncle Fester.
    
    MikeL
    

    Let mesee if I have this straight, based on the papers
    over here and CNN.
    
    FSU vs.Nebraska in the Orange Bwl. FSU is #1  NU is #2 but FSU 
    actuallly was #3 in one of the 2 polls?
    
    Florida is in the SUgar Bowl but Texas A&M ranks higher than Florida.
    So the Cotton Bowl gets first choice. They want WVU who choose to go to
    the SUgar Bowl for 1.? million bucks more. Cotton gets ND
    and a rematch from last years Cotton Bowl. WVU pulss the kind of thing
    that ND considers its god given right. TD Jesus and the Cotton Bowl
    and the Sugar Bowl (who waned a higher ranked Florida so they could get
    ND) are ready to make a pact with the devil. hahahahahahahahaha.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Cain't take offense to somefin' i cain't decipher.
    
    What the hell you trying to say Craze?   Is it this?
    
    Ah don't blame WVU. It's their perogative to go fer the cash.
    ND would have liked the Sugar but they'll jest beat the hail outta
    the Aggies..
    
    MikeL
    

    Boston University's Cinderella season ends in Idaho.

                                                         
    I love the guys like Dale Arnold who are now beating up on WVU because
    "they took the money instead of playing the higher-ranked team" but 
    then turn around and in the next breath say "besides, everyone knows 
    that the SEC champ is much better than Texas A&M, and WVU is
    unnecessarily putting that undefeated record at much greater risk".  
    Nice logic at work there.  Like WVU should pay $1.5M for the privilege 
    of being craven about their bowl opponent.  And heaven knows that if
    I'm the average Mountaineer supporter, I'd much rather spend New Year's
    in Dallas than New Orleans.  Sorry, guys, the Sugar Bowl is the real
    enchilada here.  The Cotton Bowl has become nearly akin to the WAC's
    Holiday Bowl, something to be avoided if at all possible...
    
    glenn
     

    Yup,
    Idaho was better. Geez that "stadium" they played in must house
    arena football at some point. Either that or billiard parties.
    
    What a weird place.
    
    MikeL
    

    re: Glenn
    
    oh I agree completely; but it is much more delicious in that
    it is ND that gets stuck in the Cotton Bowl while WVU does
    the kind of thing that ND loves doing.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Let's call it like it is thwn Craze.
    
    If ND does it, it's blatant self-service. Anybody else, it'sd their
    right and privilege.
    
    MikeL
    

    MikeL you're a real piece of work.MrT would have been proud of your
    logic.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Dale Arnold does interesting hockey but doesn't seem to have much depth
    otherwise.
    
    WVU goes out and beats every team it plays, is told "Sorry, not this
    year you haven't earned your dues to be numero uno".  So it takes the
    bowl with more cash which it can legally do.
    
    And Arnold criticizes the choice by pulling his holier than thou act.
    
    Bill

    I think Wheatley and Taylor(ND lineman) were the other 2
    
    Jimbo

What is the advantage of going to the Sugar bowl over the Cotton bowl:

1. More Cash - 1.5 million 

2. Play Florida instead - At lease now they are playing a team who played FSU. 
   WVU is probably thinking this would be a good comparison. 
  
3. They might have a better shot at the title - If they beat Florida by 
   a huge margin, and FSU just squeaks by Nebraska. The coaches Poll might 
   pick WVU as #1 by a large enough margin to over come the bowl coalition
   count and get the title.
  
This is a no brainer. I don't think there would be another team if they were 
in the same situation as WVU wouldn't pick the Sugar bowl.

Huey

    -1,
    Just shows ya how screwed up the rankings are. ND should beat
    A&M with one hand tied behind back (sorry Jerry). And they
    would beat UF and WVU with a slightly better effort.
    I don't BLAM WVU. Thery git the cash, better opponent, and a
    rowdy lowlife atmosphere fer them Heelbillies on Bourbon St.
    
    
    It don't matter. Nebraska and WVU going down. FSU and ND will
    dominate. Take it to the bank.
    
    MikeL
    

    re: .471
    
    The coalition adds up the points each tema gets in the Ap and UPI polss
    to determine the rankings.
    
    The final #1 ranking s done by each poll - no combination. So that is
    why there can be co-champions.
    
    The Crazy Met
    If FSU and ND bth dominate, FSU will end up as #1, especially if WVU
    beats Florida. Even without WVU winning FSU would be #1. ND has to hop
    over too many teams while playing a fairly weak team in the Cotton
    Bowl.
    
    

	Did anyone else happen to see the article (I think it came of the 
	AP wire) in yesterday's paper about Major Harris, the ex-WVU QB
	who left school early to enter the NFL draft?

	The gest of the article was about the lure of the big bucks that
	gets guys like Harris and Faulk to leave school without getting
	their degree.  It seems that after bouncing around the CFL and
	arena football for a while, Harris has grown to regret his 
	decision.  This all came out in a presentation Harris gave for
	a speech class he is taking as part of his requirement towards
	the degree he is currently pursuing at WVU.


	billl

    
>	The gest of the article was about the lure of the big bucks that
>	gets guys like Harris and Faulk to leave school without getting
>	their degree.
    
    I didn't see the article, but there's going to be just a little bit of
    difference between these two's situations.  Starting at about $15M...
    
    glenn
    

�    Just shows ya how screwed up the rankings are. ND should beat
�    A&M with one hand tied behind back (sorry Jerry). 
    
    You don't need to apologize to Jerry.  It's Lou's forgiveness you
    should be begging for for uttering such sacrilige.

�	The gest of the article was about the lure of the big bucks that
�	gets guys like Harris and Faulk to leave school without getting
�	their degree.  
    
    Big difference between Harris and Faulk.  Faulk is guaranteed to be a
    top 5 draft pick which will land him a signing bonus of about $4
    million.  There was no way Harris was going to be drafted that high and
    command that kind of money.  If Faulk is a flop he'll have a bundle of
    money in the bank and plenty of time to finish his degree.

    Hey, what about Minnesota winning the College Football Championship lasted
    night over North Texas State in Coach?
    
    REK

    Talk about pure fantasy... course that's Minnesota State I believe.
    
    
    Spud

    REK, I thought the Pioneer Bowl was played on Tuesday, not last night.

>>   <<< Note 13.472 by CTHQ::LEARY "Corporate Telecom Technology Solutions" >>>
>>                                 -< Co-champs >-

>>    Just shows ya how screwed up the rankings are. ND should beat
>>    A&M with one hand tied behind back (sorry Jerry). And they

No problem.  They should have beat BC, too. ;-).

FWIW, R.C. Slocum, A&M's coach, agrees with Lou that ND is the best
team in the nation.  And I agree with R.C.    

Jerry

    
    
    	Yabbut is anybody suprised that FSU's QB Charlie Ward won the
    Heisman?
    
    btw-5th year senior Glen(n) Foley at BC came in 4th or 5th.
    
    I remain,
    wondering which sport he'd make more $$$ in Footaball or Basketball?
    Kev
    

    Oh Oh,
    
    Lou, RC and Jerry thunk ND is da best. I'm being set up!!
    
    
    MikeL
    
    

    Why isn't Johnson thought of more highly in the class of a
    Wheatley/Faulk?
    

    Maybe.  Maybe because they HAVEN'T seen him play they haven't put him
    on the list too.  He was named the UPI back of the year.  Payton came
    from a small school too.
    

    Mel Kiper's a jerk anyway...
    
    Swann didn't have a bad year until he got hurt.  Better than say, Keith
    McCants...
    

Those draft gurus have made plenty of bad predictions over the years. These
guys also have Shuler and another QB rated higher than Ward as an NFL qb. In
this day and age of the QB usually being a sitting target for 290lb defensive
lineman I'd think that more teams would be looking toward mobile QB's.

If you are going to go with the big,strong armed QB than you have to build a
good offensive line before the guys career is over due to sack disease or he
has to be able to get rid of the ball quick like Marino. The Big mobile guys
like Elway are a once in 10 years find.

I think Ward will be a good NFL QB. He's already got a head start reading
defenses, throws accurately, has a passable arm (Rick Mirer strength, not
Bledsoe cannon type), and will stand in the pocket if needed but can  also get
out of the way....He's played in a pro style offense (NFL guru comments about
the shotgun are ludicrous) against good competition (not racking up huge
numbers vs chumps like Ware of Houston)...

He's got to declare for football if he wants to go in the 1st round though...

Metz

>    Not to reopen old wounds but I don't understand how people get all
>    juiced over guys they've either seen or have seen play once or about 
>    whom they've read glowing articles. 
    
    You mean like Errict Rhett?  (Marshall Faulk has been regarded as 
    NFL-material since midway through his freshman season.  You don't lead
    the nation in rushing in both your true freshman and sophomore seasons
    at ages 18 and 19 and not get noticed...)
    
    From the very few clips I've seen of him and a scouting report that 
    SI published a few weeks back, LeRon Johnson looks/sounds like a 
    straight-up-and-down-the-field speed burner.  It may be even more 
    difficult than usual to grade his NFL potential based on his college 
    career, because with that kind of speed at Division 1-AA it's man 
    against boys.  Pitch it outside to LeRon and watch him outrun the 
    slow defenses on his way to the end zone.  Physically, he does not 
    look like the kind of muscularly-built, durable back the NFL favors 
    at halfback, a la Payton, Sanders, Smith, etc.  I don't have the
    specs but he looks taller (or at least thinner) than those guys... 
    
    glenn
    

Article: 1519
From: [email protected] (JEFF SHAIN, UPI College Football Correspondent)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.football.college,clari.sports.top
Subject: As it turns out, LeShon Johnson's father is a pretty good career counselor.
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 93 15:09:40 PST
 
LeShon Johnson: UPI Back of the Year
	Having taken his dad's advice that carrying the leather is better
than trying to ride it or rope it, Johnson darted to one of the most
prolific rushing seasons in NCAA annals in 1993.
	Now owner of the fourth-best single-season rushing total in NCAA
history, Johnson was named Friday as Back of the Year by United Press
International.
	The Northern Illinois senior from Haskell, Okla., ran for 1,976 yards
on the year, the highest total since Barry Sanders' record 2,628 yards
in 1988. His per-game average of 179.6 yards led the nation by more than
20 yards per contest and was 16 yards better than fellow All-American
Marshall Faulk put up in leading the country last season.
	``I've said all along LeShon is the best back east of San Diego,''
Northern Illinois Coach Charlie Sadler said. ``He might be the best back
east of Hawaii now -- better yet, make that Japan.''
	He certainly will go down as one of the top performers in NCAA
annals. Only Sanders, Marcus Allen and Mike Rozier posted better single-
season numbers, and his career per-game average of 150.6 yards ranks
only behind Ed Marinaro, O.J. Simpson and Herschel Walker.
	``It's a great feeling to be mentioned with those guys,'' Johnson
said. ``It's something I've always dreamed about, and everything is
coming true.''
	Johnson's punishing style produced five 200-yard games this season,
the only back in the nation to accomplish that feat. Of the top eight
rushing performances in Division I-A this season, Johnson owns five of
them, including a school-record 322-yard outing against Southern
Illinois.
	``I'd compare him a lot -- and he's not as big as Herschel (Walker)
was -- but he's the same type of runner that Herschel was in college,''
said Southwestern Louisiana Coach Nelson Stokley, who watched Johnson
rip his team for 173 yards and two touchdowns.
	Pacific linebacker Grant Carter added: ``Marshall Faulk is the
quickest back in the country, but LeShon Johnson is harder to bring
down.''
	But for all the accolades aimed his way, Johnson doesn't appear awed
by his accomplishments.
	``Before the season started, I told people I was looking for about 1,
800 yards this year,'' Johnson said. ``I'm the kind of person that once
I set my mind to do something, I have so much confidence in myself that
I don't think it's going to be a problem (reaching my goals).''
	About the only goal Johnson didn't reach this season was his effort
to become the fourth running back to top the 2,000-yard mark in a
season. He fell short when injuries and a stubborn Mississippi defense
kept him under wraps in the season finale.
	``At first, I was feeling like, 'Man, I was that close and I didn't
reach it,''' he said. ``But everything happens for a reason. I guess it
wasn't meant to be.''
	Johnson had 35 yards on his first seven carries against Ole Miss, but
suffered a hip pointer late in the first quarter and was limited after
that. He finished the game with just 59 yards.
	``I got hit with a helmet and that kind of slowed me down,'' said
Johnson, who also played much of the season with a slightly separated
shoulder. ``That's the first time I had one of those. It's a feeling I
can't describe.
	``I kept trying to play on it, but it started to tighten up. They'd
call a play for me to get the ball, but when I tried to run I had no
acceleration. They pulled me out for some rest and stretching, and I
tried to go back out. But I was only 75 percent; I couldn't do anything.
''
	But for those who may have doubted the caliber of Johnson's
competition in the Big West, they only needed to look at his performance
against Iowa the previous week.
	Johnson broke loose for 306 yards in that contest, including TD runs
of 26 and 81 yards, to break the Kinnick Stadium record held for 25
years by Ed Podolak.
	``When he ran, he was just like a blur,'' Iowa Coach Hayden Fry said
of Johnson. ``I've never seen anyone with that great burst of speed once
he sees daylight. His legs are like pistons. You will probably never see
a better running back in Kinnick Stadium.''
	Johnson appears destined to become a first-round draft pick in the
NFL, with draft experts rating him only behind Faulk among running
backs. That's quite a leap from the career he once envisioned for
himself on the pro rodeo circuit.
	Johnson, who goes by the nickname ``Cowboy,'' rode his first bull at
age 7 while growing up on his father's Oklahoma ranch. When he wasn't
recruited by any colleges despite earning all-state football honors in
high school, he considered trying to make a living as a bull rider.
	But his father, a 23-year rodeo veteran, counseled him to pursue
football first.
	``Bull riding ain't going nowhere,'' Luther Johnson told his son. 
``You've only got one chance at football, so snatch it.''
	Johnson walked on at Northeastern Oklahoma A&M, a junior-college
power, and dedicated himself to becoming the best football player he
could be. When he came up three credits shy of admission to Tennessee,
Northern Illinois stepped in.
	``I come from a family that didn't have much,'' Johnson said. ``Once
I saw football was my way out, that's when I started dedicating myself
to doing what it takes to be successful.''
	Johnson still likes to ride horses in his free time back at the
ranch, but he's staying off bulls -- for now.
	``Maybe when my football career's over -- not too soon, I hope -- I've
been thinking about (rodeo),'' he said. ``Maybe something like
bulldogging.''

    >     LeRon Johnson play. Unlike Mike Heiser who probably hasn't seen the 
>     guy and would draft him just because he (Heiser) has a numbers fetish.

    for someone who reads so much, you're as observant as a stone.  

    >has to be able to get rid of the ball quick like Marino. The Big mobile guys
    
    Speaking of which, how many of those "experts" pooh-poohed Marino in
    his class?  As I recall, he made a lot of "experts" look pretty dumb.

>    slow defenses on his way to the end zone.  Physically, he does not 
>    look like the kind of muscularly-built, durable back the NFL favors 
>    at halfback, a la Payton, Sanders, Smith, etc.  I don't have the
>    specs but he looks taller (or at least thinner) than those guys... 
    
    LeRon compares himself to Payton, his boyhood idol.

    But the burning question is:  Is it LeRon, or LeShon?

    I'd go with LeShon...
    

>>    slow defenses on his way to the end zone.  Physically, he does not 
>>    look like the kind of muscularly-built, durable back the NFL favors 
>>    at halfback, a la Payton, Sanders, Smith, etc.  I don't have the
>>    specs but he looks taller (or at least thinner) than those guys... 
>    
>    LeRon compares himself to Payton, his boyhood idol.
    
    Okay, LeShon says Payton, an opposing coach says a smaller Herschel
    Walker.  Quite a difference between those two types.  Like I said, my 
    impression was of the latter, the straight-up-and-down breakaway track 
    star type.  But, I did have the level of competition screwed up.  No. 
    Illinois is minor 1-A and that is a solid notch above a total 1-AA
    schedule, but Johnson still didn't face much competition from the major 
    conferences...
    
    glenn
    

	All these draftniks/get a lifers are so concerned with times in the 
40 yard dash, how much iron one can lift, percentage of body fat and all 
the other meaningless statistics that never measure anything other than 
will the guy look good on the cover of muscle magazine, usually forget the 
most important question... can the guy play football?

				/Don

    ND beats Texas A&M 24-21. FG with about 5-6 minutes left.
    FSU beats NU on a last minute FG. NU gets one more shot and misses a
    FG. FSU wins 18-16. NU once again comes within inches of an undefeated
    MNC season.
    
    AP and CNN/USA poll rank FSU #1. ND can cry for another year; heh heh
    heh.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Oh I don't think Holtz whined. Obviously he wasn't thrilled.
    Before the Cotton Bowl, Holtz said that if there were *no*
    undefeated teams, his opinion was that ND was #1.
    
    Basically what he said after the game was that in '89, head to head 
    competition 
    was the main determining factor, while in '93 it was not. No
    consistency and it all points to a playoff.
    
     MikeL
    

>    Oh I don't think Holtz whined. Obviously he wasn't thrilled.
>    Before the Cotton Bowl, Holtz said that if there were *no*
>    undefeated teams, his opinion was that ND was #1.
    
I saw the press conference on ESPN yesterday.  I thought that Holtz was
very gracious in defeat.

While this is not really a "disputed" championship like some have been in the
past, I think that some of the late season voting etc etc etc really proves
the need for some sort of playoff format.....


'Saw

    And I have to give Nebraska a huge amount of credit. IMO, they
    controlled most of the game. 
    
    As I said, you could toss a coin between NU, ND and FSU. Bowden
    got what he wanted but man did he look like he had a case of
    quivering anus on the sideline. IMO, FSU won despite him. He
    looked lost on the sideline. But they won, and the Seminoles
    deserve a share of the MNC( shoulda been co-champs).
    
    MikeL
    

Orange Bowl Halftime Flash:

Nell Carter sings, "I'm losin' all sense of gravity."
I think not.  Seems to me we'd have satellites spinning
wildly outa orbit.  People could get hurt.

dr.a

>Orange Bowl Halftime Flash:
>
>Nell Carter sings, "I'm losin' all sense of gravity."
>I think not.  Seems to me we'd have satellites spinning
>wildly outa orbit.  People could get hurt.

Whoa!  Thank God I wasn't there.....

Walt, were YOU there????

    
>    As I said, you could toss a coin between NU, ND and FSU. Bowden
>    got what he wanted but man did he look like he had a case of
>    quivering anus on the sideline. IMO, FSU won despite him. He
>    looked lost on the sideline. 
    
    Mike, I got the same impression. He looked old, frail and vulnerable
    in those shots. It was like he was in a dream and he could see the
    Holy Grail, that he had had been chasing his whole life, through the 
    thick fog and that he was trying to touch it but couldn't quite reach it.
    I'll never forget those shots of Bowden. NBC did a good job. And how
    about pullin up a replay of goalline fumble in a USC game from 20 years
    ago. You've got to be impressed with the technology that enabled them
    to display it with such a short notice.    

    I don't think that there is any question about it. College football is
    much more entertaining that the NFL. The ND-FSU, ND-BC and the Orange
    bowl were all much more entertaining than the NFL's best game
    this year. Sure, there is a lot of controversy, but sometimes I fell that
    the controversy adds to the excitement and interest on gameday 
    Saturday.

	Keith

    I was seeking cover in case she tipped over...
    

�                -< Can't ya hear Holtz whine "it's not fair!" >-
    
    Regis Philbin was whining this morning about ND getting jobbed out of
    the title.

    -1,
    Whaddya doin' with a TV at work, Mac...8^)
    
    Regis is jest waxin' emotionally. I ain't whinin' even if I think
    there's legitimacy behind ND's claim
    
    MikeL
    

�    Oh I don't think Holtz whined. Obviously he wasn't thrilled.

	Puuuhlease Mike!  His sing-song whining at the press conference 
on Sunday was pathetic!  Get up like a man and say I deserve to be #1 but 
don't start that "I don't understand", "That game meant nothing, I guess"
lisping.  I almost felt bad for Notre Dame, almost mind you, until I saw 
the clips of that press conference on ESPN.

				/Don    

> I almost felt bad for Notre Dame

Give back your card in the anti-ND club!

There is nothing that happens on the sports field that should make you
feel bad for ND. By that I obviously exclude things like the accident the swim
team had, etc.

The Crazy Met

New Years day was great as expected. It's time for the playoff for the title.
FSU get's the nod based on schedule alone, they looked very shaky against NU.
ND also looked very timid  against A&M. While I thought NU played above their
heads except on the last drive where they gave FSU 30 free yards. ND came within
of interception of beating BC , while FSU survived NU's last field goal attempt.
Otherwise ND would've played for the title. Also the ranking system seems totally
out of control these days. Prior years we see a weak BYU team win it, a 3rd
ranking Miami overtaking ND , this year all sorts of things happened.

The field is where is should be decided not in the press rooms. A teams whole
season shouldn't hindge on one play in a game 3 weeks ago. The top teams
from the bowl alliance should battle it out in a 2 or 4 team playoff system. 


Later

>>FSU get's the nod based on schedule alone

>>The field is where is should be decided not in the press rooms. 
    
    Don't you think these statements are quite contradictory?
    Your firsat point should be the #1 differentiatir IF there is no
    head to head comp as your second point indicates, no?
    
    MikeL
    

    Texas A&M has been put on probation for 5 years.
    

what limits on bowls games/tv/recruiting were put on them??

The Crazy Met

>    Texas A&M has been put on probation for 5 years.
    
  Wow !! Could you plez provide us with some details ? What were the
  infractions ? I guess they can't go to bowl games or be on TV for 5 years.
  How about recruiting ? What else.

	Keith

>>FSU get's the nod based on schedule alone

I was saying that must have been the deciding factor in the minds of the voters.
That is not my view at all. Teams float in an out the ranking all year.

On the day ND beat FSU , Nd was certainly # 1, and at the time BC beat ND 
BC was what #15, yet they were playing like a top 10 team. So on any day any
week a Team can Play like a number #1 team or a number 20. Suppose ND was 
ranked around 7-8 when they played FSU and not #2, certanly FSU would have
fallen more than 1 spot.     

Please wake up the old croanies that run the bowls and use a playoff system
to determine #1.

Besides I think it will add more meaning to the bowls if they use them as 
a determinant for who goes on to a national championship playoff.
What's all the hoopla around a Fiesta Bowl with a number 10 v 8, yet it could
have considerable impact if the winner could qualify for a playoff spot.

Mike 

  

what were the top 10 teams in the coaches poll?
what about the top 11 in the writers poll (they included Auburn)
also the point totals in each poll if someone has them.

The Crazy Met

    There was a press release on the news server today.  I'll see if I can
    find it again.
    

only one I saw on the news server was UPI.

The Crazy Met

Article 16595 of clari.sports.top:
Xref: nntpd2.cxo.dec.com clari.sports.football.college:1859 clari.sports.top:16595 clari.local.texas:11332
Path: nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!looking!looking!clarinews
From: [email protected] (UPI)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.football.college,clari.sports.top,clari.local.texas
Subject: NCAA places Texas A&M football program on probation
Keywords: college football, football, men's college
Copyright: 1994 by UPI, R
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
X-Supersedes: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 94 10:44:33 PST
Location: texas
ACategory: sports
Slugword: fbc-aggies
Priority: regular
Format: regular
ANPA: Wc: 493/477; Id: z5277; Src: upi; Sel: xxsfc; Adate: 1-5-N/A; Ver: 0/5; V: 2ndld-writethru
Approved: [email protected]
Codes: ysfcrxx., &sfcrtx., //ns--s/, tnrb....
Note: (updating)
Lines: 46

	OVERLAND PARK, Kan. (UPI) -- Texas A&M University avoided the ``death
penalty'' Wednesday but was placed on probation for five years by the
NCAA Committee on Infractions for major violations in its football
program committed from 1990 to 1992.
	Texas A&M's football team also will be excluded from playing in a
bowl game or appearing on television during the 1994 season. The NCAA
did not take away any football scholarships, however, or place limits on
the recruiting program.
	The violations cited by the NCAA include the paying of athletes for
work that was not performed, providing financial aid for prospective
athletes and providing extra benefits to athletes.
	Several players, including star running back Greg Hill, were
suspended during the 1993 season for receiving pay for work that was not
performed. Hill missed the first four games of the season.
	David Swank, an Oklahoma University law professor and chairman of the
Infractions Committee, said the NCAA's harshest sanction -- the so-called
death penalty for repeat violations -- was considered because of similar
rules violations concerning the summer work program in 1988.
	However, the death penalty was not imposed, he said, because only one
representative of the university's athletic interest was involved in the
case, and the university conducted its own ``prompt and thorough
investigation'' and cooperated with the NCAA enforcement staff.
	``We discussed it (death penalty) but decided there were enough
unique factors that it was an inappropriate penalty in this case,''
Swank said in a teleconference with the media. ``But for the strong
action taken by (school officials) the penalty would have been more
severe. One can only hope that the alumni of Texas A&M will follow their
example.''
	Swank said A&M officials had made a commitment to comply with NCAA
rules, but those efforts ``have been thwarted'' by a prominent alum who
paid athletes for work that was not performed.
	According to the NCAA investigation, Dallas booster Warren A. Gilbert
paid nine Aggie players a total of $27,000 for their summer jobs at
several apartment complexes in Dallas. Investigators determined that
$18,000 of that amount was unearned.
	The NCAA barred Gilbert from involvement in the Texas A&M athletic
program for five years, which means he will not be allowed to help
recruit players, donate money to the program or provide direct or
indirect financial aide to players.
	Texas A&M is only the third school to receive five years' probation
since 1988 and one of three schools to receive seven NCAA sanctions
since 1952.
	The Infractions Committee cited A&M for a lack of institutional
control regarding the jobs program, the same as in the 1988 case.
	Swank said the school knew there had been problems in 1988 and should
have provided more monitoring and control of the program.


    

    So it's basically one year ineligible, with no loss of scholarships.
    That's not that harsh, considering the prior infraction.  I believe
    that Oklahoma was one of the other schools that received the 5 years'
    technical probation, they got two years ineligible even with no recent 
    prior infractions, and they didn't have the money involved, certainly
    no $27,000 (hey, these boosters are well-known, and previously in the
    SWC the freakin' state governor approved payments through them-- the
    school has got to be aware of what's going on).  In Oklahoma's case the 
    "lack of institutional control" came down mainly for embarrassing the 
    NCAA with the continued off-the-field, not-NCAA-violation criminal 
    arrests.  And they deserved it, rules or no...
    
    glenn
        

  I don't understand. They can't play in a bowl or be on TeeVee for one year
  and there is any changes to recruiting or scholarships. It sounds like
  a minor 1 year probation to me.

	Keith

    Keith,
    I must be missing something also..does this mean that they can't do
    this sort of thang during the additional 4 years? Maybe it's double
    secret probation from DeanNCAA.
    
    ??
    MikeL
    
    

    It means that if they do anything during the 5 years that leads to
    another probation they get the "death" penalty. SMU lost football for 2
    years and the program is still trying to recover.
    
    SWC in general was a rogue conference (how many SWC schools were not on
    probation in the last few years?). Now they're paying for it.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

Rice and Arkansas are the only teo SWC teams who have not be on 
suspension for a period of time in the past 10 years.

daryll

Article: 1563
From: [email protected] (JEFF SHAIN, UPI College Football Correspondent)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.football.college,clari.sports.top
Subject: Revising history to reflect new standards
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 94 13:55:52 PST
 
Commentary
	The voters have spoken, and no amount of righteous indignation coming
from South Bend is going to change the results. Florida State can clear
off a big space for that national championship trophy that has proven so
elusive.
	Bobby Bowden will get to show off that big piece of hardware, but
what kind of mandate will we take home from The '93 College Football
Vote? Just like everywhere else you look these days, the mandate seems
to be one for change.
	The old ways of deciding national titles apparently is no longer
valid. We must look beyond mere wins and losses in bestowing the title
of the No. 1 team in the land.
	No, it goes much deeper than that. It involves talent level, name
recognition, TV exposure. It involves the coach's likeability quotient.
It involves point spreads and style points.
	Call it reinventing the ratings.
	What the results tell us is that maybe we've been going about this
all wrong for the better part of a half-century. Mistakes might have
been made, teams undeservedly given a national title they had no right
to claim.
	Therefore, we must go back to rectify these errors, to make
restitution on some of the well-intentioned goofs of our forebears.
	Hey, if baseball can put an asterisk next to Roger Maris' 61-homer
season for nearly 30 years, there's no reason why college football can't
do the same thing to denote tainted titles.
	As such, we offer belated congratulations to:
	-- 1989 Notre Dame. By now, you've probably heard Lou Holtz's
arguments ad nauseum. But let's go over them again anyway.
	Notre Dame finishes the season 12-1, Miami 11-1. Both win their bowl
games. The Fighting Irish played a brutal regular-season schedule that
included eight bowl teams. The Hurricanes played only four teams that
reached postseason play.
	But Miami wins the title based on its 27-10 victory at home over
Notre Dame. As one AP voter wrote after the final tally: ``All else is
sawdust.''
	Sorry, but head-to-head meetings no longer qualify as tiebreakers.
Strength of schedule and qualify of opponents do. Therefore, we are left
with no choice but to let Notre Dame add the 1989 title to the
championship it won the previous season.
	Call it revenge of the sawdust.
	-- 1983 Nebraska. The Cornhuskers steamrolled all comers that year,
from the inaugural Kickoff Classic to highly ranked UCLA and Syracuse to
plowing through the Big Eight schedule unchallenged.
	Several observers considered that Nebraska team one of the all-time
greats. Among the members of that Cornhusker unit were Heisman Trophy
winner Mike Rozier; wide receiver Irving Fryar, the No. 1 draft pick
overall by the NFL the following spring; and lineman Dean Steinkuhler,
winner of the lineman's double by taking both the Outland and Lombardi
awards.
	But their unbeaten hopes were dashed in a 31-30 loss to Miami in
perhaps the greatest Orange Bowl ever played. Nebraska attempted a two-
point conversion with 48 seconds left, but Ken Calhoun batted down a
Turner Gill pass to give the 11-1 Hurricanes their first national title.
	Not so fast. Miami was beaten pretty good, 28-3, by Florida in its
season opener. And the Hurricanes' lineup of opponents included such
cupcakes as Purdue, Duke, Louisville, Mississippi State, Cincinnati and
East Carolina. Sure, they had a 20-0 shutout of Notre Dame, but the
Fighting Irish were coached by Gerry Faust back then, so it doesn't
count.
	The Hurricanes may have won the game, but Nebraska was threatening
right at the end. Under the new standards, that's just as good as a win.
(Right, Charlie Ward?)
	Remember, you have to consider the whole season. No way those
Hurricanes had a better team than the '83 Cornhuskers. Ten years after
the fact, we must award coach Tom Osborne with his first national title
in an illustrious career that now has reached 21 years.
	-- 1977 Alabama. When unbeaten Texas fell 38-10 to Notre Dame in the
Cotton Bowl, voters boosted the Fighting Irish all the way from No. 5 to
No. 1. Somehow overlooked was the Crimson Tide, which entered the bowl
games ranked No. 3.
	The Tide, which featured such standouts as receiver Ozzie Newsome and
defensive lineman Marty Lyons, ripped Ohio State 31-6 in the Sugar Bowl.
Alabama finished the season 11-1 after playing a tough Southeastern
Conference schedule.
	Notre Dame also was 11-1, but played only three ranked teams during
the regular season. And its loss came against Mississippi, of all
people.
	Apparently Joe Montana's mystique got to everybody back then, too.
	Sorry, Irish. You win some, you lose some. This title gets taken away
and awarded to the Crimson Tide, giving them two titles in the span of
three years. Rest in peace, Bear.
	And those are just the tip of the iceberg. There are other
championships that may demand review: Oklahoma over Penn State, 1985;
Brigham Young over Washington, 1984; Oklahoma over Ohio State, 1975;
Alabama over Michigan State, 1965.
	Clearly, the polls have outlived their purpose. Once a nice way of
sparking discussion in college football, they have turned into nothing
but a popularity contest.
	One ESPN commentator went so far recently as to pull his wallet out
of his jacket, shake it vigorously and say: ``Here's why Florida State
is No. 1. Who would you put your money on between Florida State and
Nebraska?''
	I would have loved to seen him sweat things out New Year's Night. And
I'm sure he made a financial killing by betting Notre Dame over Boston
College.
	Taken to another level, can't you just envision the ``USA Today/CNN
Bookmakers Poll,'' with Danny Sheridan and Roxy Roxborough among the
voters?
	Enough. The NCAA needs to do more than just examine a playoff system;
it needs to put one in place. And not for 1995, for next season.
	The poll voters have shown they no longer can be entrusted with
deciding the fate of college football, not with reputations and millions
of dollars in financial rewards at stake.
	It's time to end this travesty. Now.

The coaches poll and the writers poll both had the same teams in the Top 10 - if
you take away Auburn. I would guess that this close to true jut about every
year. In fact, I doubt that they have disagreed about the top 4 teams (in
some order) in very many years. Have the bowl games. Take the top 4 teams from
the ratings and then have 2 more games as a playoff.

Only hitch will be scheduling it so it does not conflict with the NFL
playoffs. But then again they could play a Friday night and Saturday night
for the semis and then a Saturday night final.

The Crazy Met

    
>	-- 1977 Alabama. When unbeaten Texas fell 38-10 to Notre Dame in the
> Cotton Bowl, voters boosted the Fighting Irish all the way from No. 5 to
> No. 1. Somehow overlooked was the Crimson Tide, which entered the bowl
> games ranked No. 3.
> 	The Tide, which featured such standouts as receiver Ozzie Newsome and
> defensive lineman Marty Lyons, ripped Ohio State 31-6 in the Sugar Bowl.
> Alabama finished the season 11-1 after playing a tough Southeastern
> Conference schedule.
    
    And Alabama had also beaten a previous #1 that season, USC, but didn't
    move to #1 (ND also beat USC, later on).  The thing that amuses me in 
    all of this is that somehow when they've got the same record as one or
    more other teams, ND always supposedly holds a tie-breaker consistent 
    with precedent, as if there has ever been such a precedent with 
    these polls (not that every other school doesn't try to make the 
    same arguments, but they usually don't get the attention).  Now I
    understand that Lou Holtz says that he's seen the light on the head-to-
    head thing in 1989, but damned if I ever heard a word of this
    transformation until now.
    
    glenn
      

Penn State in 1969 also comes to mind. Who were the 2 other unbeaten
teams that year? One was Texas, the other??

The Crazy Met

                            
> Penn State in 1969 also comes to mind. Who were the 2 other unbeaten
> teams that year? One was Texas, the other??
    
    That was it for unbeaten, untied in 1969.  Penn State was also unbeaten, 
    untied after the bowls in 1968 (Ohio St) and 1973 (Notre Dame).  In 
    those days there was a stigma about Eastern football, somewhat 
    justifiable if you look at the overall competition, but on the other 
    hand in hindsight if you look at some of the talent that went to the 
    NFL from those PSU teams, I think such a playoff would have been
    interesting... 
    
    glenn
    

Didn't Nixon make some statement about the Texas-? game being for the
MNC? Who was that other team - I think they were undefeated until the
Texas game.

The Crazy Met

    Probably Arkansas.
    
    BTW - There was a great special on ESPN last week - the 10 greatest
    college games ever. They had to be distinguished by something
    incredible - Rivalry, for a title (MNC, conf, whatever) unbelievable
    play, etc...
    
    I'll reconstruct the list here...
    
    Any guesses??? There are some surprises. This was done by a vote
    of sportswriters and coaches.
    
    Murph
    

>    BTW - There was a great special on ESPN last week - the 10 greatest
>    college games ever. They had to be distinguished by something
>    incredible - Rivalry, for a title (MNC, conf, whatever) unbelievable
>    play, etc...
    
    I saw most of this program, and it was very interesting.  In between the 
    10 best they also highlighted other notable games, so you got a lot of
    college football history in one program.  And it wasn't heavily loaded 
    up with just recent games where there is more existing video footage, as 
    is typical of these things.  I know that Nebraska-Oklahoma Thanskgiving 
    Day 1971 was still listed as #1, a game that was played when I lived in 
    Norman and which my mother attended (wish she'd kept the ticket stub).
    Wasn't #2 the Miami-Nebraska Orange Bowl?  That was a great one but 
    being embedded in my childhood memory I prefer the 1973 Notre Dame-Alabama 
    Sugar Bowl game, for some reason.  The successful comeback, especially
    by the underdog, beats out the build-the-lead-and-then-hold-on kind of
    game... 
    
    glenn
    

    
    1977
    
    The reason #3 'bama did not get the MNC that year was that they played
    a #8?? ranked Ohio St team in the Sugar while #5 ND beat #1 Texas
    in the Cotton. Good argument either way.
    
    glenn,
    We all know Lou is too self-serving (as most coaches are) to be
    a convert to any criteria. In '89 he was the most vociferous
    proponent of the " tougher schedule,beat 8 bowl teams including #1
    CU, lost AT Miami, #1 throughout most of the year" '89 Irish as #1.
    Lou was told, no way Jose, head to head comp roolz, 'Canes #1.
    So this year he figures precedent's been set, so head to head
    comp roolz, ND is #1. Wrongo again. So he and ND want to know,
    which one is it? Simplistic, yup, but I believe the pollsters
    get too wrapped up in all different tie-breakers (which is why
    I disagreed with Lou in '89 and grudgingly agreed with da Canes).
    
    BTW, Lou, in his weekly show, come out and said ND got screwed,
    thought it was an anti-Holtz(ND) thang rather than a pro-Bowden(FSU)
    
    
    MikeL
    
    P.S.
    I remember the stink emanating from State College in '73, glenn.
    Unfortunately for the Lions, PSU was lumped into Eastern football
    prowess; minor league along with the BC's WVU's Army, etc.
    I believe it was after this year that Paterno decided to expand
    his schedule to a little more national scope, no?
    
    
      

    Given this:
    
�The successful comeback, especially
�    by the underdog, beats out the build-the-lead-and-then-hold-on kind of
�    game... 
    
    Why this?:
�                     -< Also, 1993 BC-ND > 1984 BC-Miami >-

    
>    Why this?:
>�                     -< Also, 1993 BC-ND > 1984 BC-Miami >-
    
    BC 1993 was a big underdog against #1 ND, built a lead, lost it, then 
    mounted an improbable comeback.  Miami 1984 just wasn't that good.  I 
    think they finished 7-5.  1984 BC-Miami was a very good game that would 
    be sitting with hundreds of other very good games if not for one 
    miraculous play...
    
    glenn
    

Greg Hill, Junior running back for Texas A&M, has announced that
he will forgo his senior year and declare himself eligible for the
NFL draft.  Hill reached 2000 yards rushing faster than any other
SWC back, and broke Earl Campbell's freshman rushing record.

Hill is also one of the Aggie players that was suspended for taking
money for work he did not do.  One of the results of this was that
A&M is on probation and will not be televised, nor allowed to play
in a bowl game next year, which would be Hill's senior year.  I
pretty much suspected that he would turn pro this year, but the
NCAA sanctions had to be a big factor in this decision.  It's kind
of ironic (for lack of a better word) that it was his actions that
spurred his decisions for this.

I've watched Greg play, and don't really understand how he gains so
many yards.  He's fast, and shifty, but doesn't really seem to be
a great runner.  I also think that he has benefitted greatly from
A&M's run-oriented offense and from playing in a weakened SWC.
In other words, it won't surprise me if he doesn't make it in the
NFL.

Jerry

    Jerry,
    Morris and Sam Adams also declared for pro...in a way, I can't
    blame seniors to bem let's hope these guys opt to come back to get
    their degree (ala Rocket, Bettis and Tom Carter at ND).
    
    Looks like recruiting could be hurt severely. That would be a shame
    because I was surprised and impressed by A&M's play in thev Cotton.
    
    MikeL
    

>>   <<< Note 13.539 by CTHQ::LEARY "Corporate Telecom Technology Solutions" >>>

>>    Morris and Sam Adams also declared for pro...in a way, I can't

MikeL,

Morris plays (played) for Texas Tech, not A&M.  Hill and Thomas are
A&M's tailbacks, and Hill has declared for pro football.  With the
NCAA rulings on no TV, I expect that a lot of A&M's juniors will
turn pro.
    
Jerry

    
    Is there another cap/rookie rule coming down in 95?  Seems that there
    are more underclassmen than ever coming out now.  Some of them don't
    eve n make sense.  Mario Bates?
    
    brews

    Supposedly some NFL scouts told Mario he was a first round pick.  I
    think he just hurt his chances big time.  He should've tried to play a
    full healthy year at ASU first to improve his draft position.  Unless
    you wants to take the money and run before he takes it in the knee
    again.

    
    
    With his injury history, and all the others coming out, I see him as
    2nd-3rd round at best.  He's a good risk for a team that needs a rb
    though.
    
    brews

    { reprinted w/o permission from "Inside Sports" }
    
    this came out before this year's bowls.
    
    Schools with longest bowl streaks         Coaches with most bowl wins
    ---------------------------------         ---------------------------
    USC           9   1923-45                 Bear Bryant   15    15-12-2
    Florida St.   8   1985-93  *active        Joe Paterno   14    14-8-1
    UCLA          8   1983-91                 Bobby Bowden  12    12-3-1
    Georgia Tech  8   1947-56                 Don James     10    10-5
    Alabama       6   1975-81                 John Vaught   10    10-8
    Syracuse      5   1989-93  *active        Bobby Dodd     9     9-4
    Notre Dame    5   1973-79                 Lou Holtz      9     9-6-2
    Arizona St.   5   1970-75                 Johnny Majors  9     9-7
    
    3 of the top 8 are PAC-10 teams!

    [same source]
    
    Conference                   Record              Pct.
    -------------------------------------------------------
    Independents                50-41-5              .547
    PAC-10                      75-62-6              .545
    ACC                         67-57-5              .539
    SEC                        123-122-13            .502
    Big West                    10-10-1              .500
    WAC                         33-35-3              .486
    Big 8                       57-61-1              .483
    Mid-American                12-13-0              .480
    Big East                    39-44-1              .470
    SWC                         58-68-6              .462
    Big 10                      48-57-1              .458
    
    read'em & weep!

    
    
    Yes 3 are PAC 10 schools.  BUT Arizona state's streak occured when they
    were a part of the wac.
    
    Jerry

    Mike,
    	did you make one of your patented typos on the 1923-45 9 game win
    streak.  In 1945, btw, the rose bowl was cancelled(*) because of war-time
    restrictions (this incidently prevented Indiana all-american Ted
    Klusewski from joining Jacky Jensen as Rose,all-star, world series
    performers).
    
    Bill
    
    (*) No Tcm, I did not have tickets to the game

    >    	did you make one of your patented typos on the 1923-45 9 game win
    
    Bill, I posted the sources for this reason.  

�                                -< READING 101 >-
    
    I guess you need to go back to Reading 100 then.  Just because you
    posted the source, doesn't mean you didn't slip with the fingers while
    typing, thus Bill's question regarding the typo.

    nope, checked it twice before I entered it.

    Okay Mike, I believe you;
    
    	Now how do you explain what IS posted?  I mean 45 minus 23 = 9 ?????
    
    $2b

    It's probably the fact that USC won 9 straight bowl games over that
    time period, but didn't go to a bowl every one of those 22 years.

    Coughlin just dumped BC for the Jacksonville Jaguars.
    
    I have no respect for the man.  3 years into the program
    and off he goes.  Building and sustaining a College football
    program takes years and years.  Looks like BC will end up sideways
    again.
    
    So much for big-time college football excitement in this region.
    
    doug

    With Coughlin and Foley leaving, BC could have a big dropoff.
    They have a pretty tough schedule next year, and if they turn
    in a sub-.500 year, it could kill the recruiting improvement 
    they've had.
    
    Mike

I caught bits and pieces of some sports show this weekend that was
rating the recruiting classes of the various universities.  It was
on one of the sports channels (not ESPN).

Anyway, I missed most of it but did catch the following.  A partial
list of the top ? classes is

 1. Tennessee
 2. Michigan
 3. Ohio State
 4. Florida State

 8. Texas A&M

That's all I caught of it.  Does anyone else see this, or have
any additional info?

Jerry

    
    	OK Leary, let's have it.  I wanna see the stats that show Ara
    	dominated the Bear.  You've woofed it twice now.  Give it to me!
    
    Claybone

    Not Leary,but:
    
    1973 Sugar Bowl ND 24 Alabama 23. ND wins MNC
    1974 Orange Bowl ND 12 #1 Alabama 10 -ND prevents alabama from winning
    MNC.
    
    Need more?

    
    	Definitely biggies, but I'd like to see the overall record
    	between Ara and the Bear.
    
    Claybone

    That's it 'Bone.
    
    Ara 2  Bear 0 by a whopper of three points. 
    
    Now I could be wrong about the following but here goes
    
    Devine 2  Bear 1
    
    In '76 ND hosted Bama and ND won 21-17 or somefin' like that
    In '79 Bama hosted the Irish and ND won agin in an upset.
    In  '80 Bama hosted the Irish and kicked their butt to get Bear
    his onliest victory against ND.
    
    Now I'm not positive about the last two games I mentioned but I'm
    pretty sure Bear was 1-4 agin ND (0-2 against Ara).  After the Bama
    victory, Bear said he didn't want an epitaph on hias grave that
    said "Couldn't beat ND" 
    
    Now 'Bone you also know that I have nothing against Alabama.
    All them ND wins coulda gone either way. All ND fans have a healthy
    respect for Alabama's football history and I certainly wish that
    it was ND that coulda laid that Sugar Bowl whupping on the Canes
    that the Tide managed to do.
    
    However facks is facks; Ara 2  Bear 0.  Said without dissin' intent.
    
    MikeL
    

>    respect for Alabama's football history and I certainly wish that
>    it was ND that coulda laid that Sugar Bowl whupping on the Canes
>    that the Tide managed to do.
    
Oh, that was a game I'll NEVER forget as long as I live.

I have to be honest and say that I didn't think that Alabama would
beat them.  I figured it would be close, but figured that the vaunted
Miami offense would prevail.

I'd helped my brother move that day, and I was cold and tired when
I got home to sit down and watch.

What a pleasant and uplifting surprise....


Kicked some serious butt, did the Tide.  To use an Imus term, they
bitch-slapped 'em....

Ranks right up there with the Irish-FSU game this past season ;^)


'Saw    

    
    	Fine.  I guess I'll just have to live with it.  No flies on
    	Ara.
    
    Claybone

	Oh come on Claybone, face it you really think Ara was a stiff!!

 
 Cadzilla2

    Er Cad,
    
    Ara managed a 1-1 vs UT~....ah suppose the Irish was lucky in
    the WooWooWoostah rematch..
    
    And Devine won the EarlCampbellized tiebreaker.
    
    MikeL
    

    
    	Relax Cadzilla, Leary has gotta take solace in something, might
    	as well be the past!
    
    Claybone

Can't we all just, you know, uh, get along?

I think we should all get together and sit down to a nice meal of
Corned Beef, Cabbage, Grits, Fried Chicken, Bushmills and Jack Daniels.

When we're all good and toasted we can talk about something we all
agree on -- like how much North Carolina Tarheels suck.....


'Saw

    Nah,
    
    I cain't let these southron-type football power-wannabees try to
    browbeat me Irish. If da troof hurts 'em, well they just practice
    revisionist history. 8^)
    
    I'll just have to root for Auburn and A&M now.....
    
    8^)
    MikeL
    

>    I'll just have to root for Auburn and A&M now.....
                                ^^^^^^


Don't push me, Mike.  Them's fightin' words.....8^)
    

	Yo Mike UT loosing a few games to the Irish never bothered me that much,
they were all great games.

	Being another fan of Bear Bryant is another story all together. The man
and his record speak for themselves. Only one mans teams have won more college
football games in the NCAA's 100+ years. You put ND in the SEC and I doubt this
no win situtation would still be a matter of discussion for the Irish. 

	You can root for A+M all you want. Bear Bryant coached them before going
to Tuscaloosa. The current Bama coach Gene Stallings played for the Bear at A+M
in the mid 50's. Bryant's "two a days" in mid august at College Station are
fabled as being one step short of Hell. 

  Cadzilla2


  

    
    	Now why would MikeL compare his fave ND coaches to the Bear?
    	Because he recognizes greatness!
    
    	Bama a football power wannabe?  Heh heh, your arms ain't long
    	for that reach.
    
    Claybone

    Hey I like the Bear really!
    
    If it wasn't fer his great coaching in the two bowl games agin ND,
    the Tide would be 2-0 against Ara...8^)
    
    Ah you boys prolly et a bad batch (is there such a thang) of grits
    for breakfast; yer so ornery this AM.
    
    BTW Cad, ND plays a home and home with UT beginning in 95 I believe.
    Let's both try to get tix and I'll treat ya to a nice South Bend
    whupping in '95 and you can buy me Texass BBq in Austin in '96.
    Don't be too sad when we waltz away with two W's..
    
    
    MikeL
    

	Sorry Mike, if I had a chance to go to see them play it would not be
against ND. Oklahoma or A+M maybe. ND games have no meaning, little or no
rivialry. I would not doubt your two W's. Horn's have been having their problems
the last few years. Can't keep the good ones home any more. No Earl Campbell
types around anymore.

  
	I believe your right about the Bear and UK, He played the oppsosite end
from Green Bay great Don Hutson.

  Cadzilla2

    Understood Cadzilla2,
    
    I know there's not much rivalry but it actually offers ND the chance to
    play against varying styles of football. ND likes the cross sectional
    rivalries to build up expertise asgin prospective bowl opponents but
    more importantly to keep the name recognition alive for recruiting.
    And ND has fared vewy well in the state of Texas recently, thus their
    willingness to play A&M in the Cotton.
    
    BTW does 'Bone know that mah new hero is Shug Jordan??
    
    8^)'s
    Mike
    

    What you mean who Clay...
    
    Shug Jordan.. wasn't he the legendary Auburn coach who losted to the
    Bear all the time? Or am I thinking of some other Mussle Shoals
    raidneck..8^)
    
    Go WarEagles!
    
    8^)
    MikeL
    

	Ah yes... Auburn-Alabama football.  The teams that can't decide 
	what there nickname should be so they come up with several.

	Auburn:  Tigers, WarEagles
	Alabama:  Crimson Tide, Elephants

	Spent three years in that area and never could figure out why they
	did that.


	billl

	Re-1


   Not sure about the Elephants. Bama has always been the Crimson Tide. Auburn
does have the two names, have no idea why. During my short hitch with Uncle Sam
in the area you mostly hear of War Eagle as part of their fight song.

 Cadzilla2

	U Alabama calls themselves the Crimson Tide, but has an elephant as 
	their mascot.  Go figure.  I always thought the "crimson tide" refered
	to the elephant's mentrual cycle.



	billl

    My alma mater, Worcester Polytechnic Institute, calls themselves the
    Engineers and has a goat as their mascot.

 >>   My alma mater, Worcester Polytechnic Institute, calls themselves the
 >>   Engineers and has a goat as their mascot.

	Gee, Mac, that explains everything.  Thanks for the insight.



	billl

    
    	Coulda been MikeL.  I don't pay much attention to the losers
    	from Auburn!  :*)
    
    	I believe a radio annoucer (a long, long time ago) came up
    	with the phrase "Crimson Tide".  They were playing Southern Cal
    	I believe and Bama was running roughshod over the SC defense.
    	The announcer said something like, "The Alabama offense is rolling
    	over the Southern Cal defense like a crimson tide".  Bama adopted
    	the phrase.  I don't know when.  And, I don't know where that 
    	stoopid elephant came from either!
    
    	And Billlll, you're pretty funny, for an OLD MAN!
    
    Claybone

>    	I believe a radio annoucer (a long, long time ago) came up
>    	with the phrase "Crimson Tide".  They were playing Southern Cal
>    	I believe and Bama was running roughshod over the SC defense.
>    	The announcer said something like, "The Alabama offense is rolling
>    	over the Southern Cal defense like a crimson tide".  Bama adopted
>    	the phrase.  I don't know when.  And, I don't know where that 
>    	stoopid elephant came from either!
    
That's similar to the way the New Zealand All Blacks got their name.

They were playing against the Aussies (or somebody) back in the early
twenties, and their team was very fast, even the big lumbering forwards
weren't really lumbering after all, they were fast, and so were the backs.

So a newspaper reporte wrote that they played like all backs.  However,
the typsetter made a typo, and the sentence came out "They played
like all blacks".

The team adopted the name, and they've been the All Blacks ever since....


Roll Tide!


'Saw

"they call Alabama the Crimson Tide
"call me Deacon Blues..."

    Deacon Blues?  Did y'all lose to my mighty Terrapins this year?
    
    I am a U of Md. grad ('77) living here in Atlanta.  I have to put up
    with Ga. Tech and *UGA* fans (ugh).
    
    Just wait till we get some D!
    
    Dan 

    Does anyone have any information on the allegations against
    the Miami Hurricanes?
    
    MikeL
    

>    Does anyone have any information on the allegations against
>    the Miami Hurricanes?


This is the story of the Hurricanes, the team the authority's came to blame,
For somethin that they hadn't done,
but at one time, they coulda been the greatest in the world!!!!!    

	Previous alums and football players were giving players money for
performance on the field. Like $50 for a touchdown etc.. These activites are to
have taken place during JJ's reign as coach. Current coach Dennis Erickson
has not been implicated at this time. 

 Cadzilla2

    Someone told me that ESPN reported, as an example, that some
    UM gridsters were offered $500 to take out either Tony Rice or
    the Rocket during the '89 ND at Miami tilt( UM won aqnd neither
    Rice or Ismail were "taken out"). And that was Erickson's first
    year.
    
    MikeL
    

    	Pay for performance.  Nothing wrong with that.
    
    				   /Don

    I told you those guys were pros when playing for ThugU!
    
    MikeL
    

    
      Trash-talking, under-acheiving ND and their tunnel antics
     ain't got no business calling anyone ThugU. This constant
     harping on pre-Erickson irregularities smack of jealousy.
     Yes, jealous! Jealous that the 'Canes play anyone anywhere!
     Jealous that their coach and their fans ain't so pansy-assed
     that they say things like, "If we don't take Navy seriously..."
     Look up them future ND schedules that I posted sometime ago
     Mikey and then hide your face in shame.

Tough two weeks for Tommy. First this scandal with Fla. St., now
this stuff with UofMiami. But, in the grand grand tradition of ::sprots -
as defined by Tommy elsewhere - he is changing the subject and blasting
another team. Well done!

The Crazy Met

    
       Craze, I realize that as Big Mama Sandbagger, your primal
      instinct is to come running with nostrils flaring whenever
      one of your little sandbaggers is threatened but I did not
      change the subject. I merely pointed out that each and every
      incident that Mikey harps about is/was pre-Erickson and that
      Mikey is obviously jealous of a team that lives up to its
      potential unlike ND. So you can quit baring your fangs. 

�But, in the grand grand tradition of ::sprots -
�as defined by Tommy elsewhere - he is changing the subject and blasting
�another team. Well done!
    
    Well done indeed, Tommy.  That is high praise coming from the master
    practitioner of the art.

    HAHAHA
    Tommy ain't no ThugU fan and he/I know it. These supposed allegations
    took place in 89 and beyond during the *Erickson* years. I heard
    a report that none of these alleged payoffs took place during Johnson's
    reign. Hmmmm and I thought Erickson was a step up. Yea looks like
    a step up in the merde dept at HurricaneU. From Schnellenpooper to
    Jimmy"I only kept mah wife at Miami cuz it was good PR" Johnson
    to Dennis "We don't do that here anymore"Erickson. What a progression.
    
    Better stick to TallahasseeRationalizations afore they take that
    trophy away and leave the real pros(Miami) alone.
    
    MikeL
    

Well they've come up with a_Almost National Championship (ANC) to replace
the Mythical National Championship (MNC).

The way it works is that starting after the 95 season (1/1/96), the ANC
game rotates among the Fiesta, Orange and Sugar Bowls. This has been
agreed to by the ACC, Big East, SEC, Big 12/8 and Notre Dame. The idea is
that the 2 highest rated teams will play each other.

Of course, the Rose Bowl will still feature the PAC10 vs the BigT1E1N so
you still may not get a 1 vs 2 mathcup.

The Fiesta gets the first pick in the rotation having paid the most money
to join the fun, $116 mil. The Orange will pay $101 mil, and the Sugar
will pay $100 mil. A minor nit with the Fiesta pick: Phoenix hosts Super
Bowl XXX a couple of weeks later that year.

Also, this leaves the Cotton Bowl is a very bad way.

TTom

    So this means that the Orange no longer automatically gets the Big8/12
    champion and the Sugar does not automatically get the SEC champ?
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    The Cotton Bowl was finished when the SWC was all but dissolved. This 
    is a slight improvement,but is meaningless if a Rose Bowl team is #1
    at the end of the regular season. Why couldn't the Rose Bowl buy into
    this?
    
    There's several unanswered questions:
    
    Can the at-large teams come from the ACC/BE/B12/SEC cartel?
    Like TCM asked,are the conference/bowl alliances dead?

  What do you bet that this is a stepping stone to a system that will result in
a College Superbowl game? Considering the money a game like that would make I
don't see how they can stop it from happening. 

  I heard of a system proposed about a year or so ago in which there would be 4
teams selected after Jan 1 to play a couple rounds to determine a national
champion. That sounds like a good idea to me.

  The football world is crying for an early game on Super Sunday. It's no
coincidence that we see bear bottles go at it each year, we need a 2nd game. A
College Superbowl in the early afternoon followed by the pro Superbowl would
work really well and would make $millions$. 

  George 

I aint got all the details but it sounds like it's a rotating rotisserrie
thing where each year the order of picking moves among these big three. 

For this year, the SEC goes to the Sugar, Big 8/12 goes to the Orange,
and the ACC and Big East champs go somewhere under current contract.

After 1/95, the Fiesta gets to choose its matchup, then the Orange, then
the Sugar. Everybody else gets the leftovers except for the Rose which
gets the PAC10 and Big 10/11.

The question I have is what about the second place teams in the PAC10
and Big10/11. Can they play at the ANC?

TTom

    Building on TTom's question. It's not hard to envision Penn State hgiher
    ranked than Michigan but Michigan going to the Rose Bowl. With these
    conferences approaching garganutan size will we be seeing the end of
    regular season interconference games?

The several scenarios that can really screw up the ANC.

For one, you've still got the issue of the bowls want to win the TV
ratings game as well so they're gonna be looking for the best matchup in
those terms as well. One combo that probably won't play too well is a
repeat of a regular season matchup.

TTom

    
    Phoenix could have the ANC and the SuperBowl in the same month.  Don't
    think they will, but they could if the Fiesta Bowl folks want to.
    
    brews

    IM starts the season RED HOT again.  Nebraska kicked the eers off
    West Virginia.  Score could have been 55-0 easily.
    
    Tonight another laugher on the slate.  Ohio State is going to cream
    Fresno St.  The line is 13 and the Buckeyes will win by 4 touchdowns.
    
    IMJIMBO

    If I stay this hot I might expand into Arena ball. 8*)
    
    IMJIMBO

    Better hurry, the season's ending soon.  How about Roller Hockey?
    

    IM likes Arizona -9 against Georgia Tech tonight. 9 might seem a
    bit high on the road, but if Tech can't score on desert swarm then
    9 is a bargain.  Look for a 20-3 game or thereabouts.
    
    IMJIMBO

Hail, I kinda like another game tonight with them Jayhawks going down to
Houston. Kansas should drub the Cougars.

Kansas was making some progress but slipped a little lasted year. Look
for them to return with a vengeance. Meanwhile, Houston isn't even a
shadow of its former bad self and it's payback time.

Right now it's they're giving 15.

TTom

    Take Tech at -9. Almost all their offense is back. Plus there's the SI
    jinx factor. 
    
    An unbiased source.
    
    GTChris