Conference hbahba::cam_sports

    CONGRESS GOES TO BAT:
       Sens. Howard Metzenbaum, D-Ohio, and Connie Mack, R-Fla., 
    Thursday morning will introduce a bill to repeal baseball's 
    71-year-old antitrust exemption. Co-sponsors include Sens. Bob 
    Graham, D-Fla., and John Warner, R-Va. Committee hearings are 
    expected next month.
    
    Some of the quotes I heard had Howard talking about MLB franchises
    unfairly using cities like Phoenix as a leveraging tool in negotiations
    for more money.

    Could someone post a schedule of the A's games the week of 5/3-5/7.
    
    If they are in town that week I may be able to catch a game.
    
    Thanks
    Shawn
    

    Glenn:
    
    I agree that it's not a money thing. Besides the preponderence of late
    night postseason games,baseball is also turning people off with
    too much player movement. 
    
    The marquee names in football and basketball have remained pretty
    much with their original teams,but there are just a handful in
    baseball.
    (Ripken,Sandberg,Clemens,Pucket,Mattingly,Gooden come to mind)-but look
    at the WS champion Toronto team. They are unrecognizable. 
    
    Where money is a problem is all the .230 hitters who are pulling in
    over a $1 million a year.

�baseball is also turning people off with
�    too much player movement. 
    
    Where are all these people who are being turned off?  MLB broke another
    attendance record last year.  ESPN carries more baseball games than
    anyone ever did.  I think one of CBS's problems is that they carried
    too few regular season games.
    
�    The marquee names in football and basketball have remained pretty
�    much with their original teams
    
    Football has fewer marquee names than baseball.  Most football players
    are faceless guys with numbers on their backs.  I would think that the
    movement of marquee players would actually increase interest since
    these are the kind of guys that will draw a crowd wherever they play. 
    In fact, that's a reason why alot of teams sign big names -- not only
    do they have a history of performance, but they will put fannies in the
    seats.
    
�but look
�    at the WS champion Toronto team. They are unrecognizable. 
    
    I wouldn't consider Joe Carter, Dave Winfield, and Jack Morris to be
    unreconizable.  Even if they were, Toronto sold out every game in one
    of the largest ballparks in baseball last season.
    
    

    
>>�    The marquee names in football and basketball have remained pretty
>>�    much with their original teams
>>    
>>    Football has fewer marquee names than baseball.  Most football players
>>    are faceless guys with numbers on their backs.  I would think that the
>>    movement of marquee players would actually increase interest since
>>    these are the kind of guys that will draw a crowd wherever they play. 
>>    In fact, that's a reason why alot of teams sign big names -- not only
>>    do they have a history of performance, but they will put fannies in the
>>    seats.

In my opnion, Mac, you've proven the previous noters point with your reply.
The "faceless guys with numbers on their back" are remembered, because those
numbers are associated to a name to a larger degree in the NFL than in MLB.
For example, any true Steeler fan who passes someone on the street with a
black and gold #32, 80, 88, or 12 knows whose number that other fan is displaying.

Now if the same fan sees someone displaying a Pirate jersey with most any number,
except 21, he may not be sure whose number it is.  This is simply due to what the
previous noter referred to..."marquee names...have remained pretty much with 
their original teams "

Before you say that this would only happen in the 'burgh, think again.  The point
being, I believe, that professional baseball players tend to travel around from
team to team more than football players.  Maybe this is due to the free agent 
issue differences between the sports, but it sure seems to hold true in this 
fan's eyes.

Billl

    The player movement thing is paradoxical.  If you ask the average fan
    whether he likes the fact that a lot of players move around, he'd
    undoubtedly say "no".  Yet player movement sparks interest throughout
    the winter and generates anticipation and hope for the upcoming season, 
    and except for the movement of the few very big franchise players no 
    one seems too bothered by it.  In fact, one of the things many fans 
    have said they miss are the huge blockbuster trades of the past where 
    both the stars and non-stars would get shifted en masse between teams 
    during the winter.  Overall, there's probably *less* player movement 
    today than in the old days, except now it comes at the players' 
    discretion, without the tangible "what'd we get in trade" aspect that 
    the fans enjoy.
    
    I understand where fans get upset when the big stars move and they
    receive nothing in return, though.  That's why more and more teams
    appreciate the value of these players and try to lock them up early.
    I get the impression that the consensus in Pittsburgh was that they
    were glad to see Barry Bonds, go, though.... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

�The "faceless guys with numbers on their back" are remembered, because those
�numbers are associated to a name to a larger degree in the NFL than in MLB.
    
    Yeah right.  I'll bet even you would have a hard time naming the
    offensive line for the Pittsburgh Steelers.  Even if you could, would
    you be able to recognize them off a football field?
    
�For example, any true Steeler fan who passes someone on the street with a
�black and gold #32, 80, 88, or 12 knows whose number that other fan is displaying.
    
    But would someone outside of Pittsburgh?

    	I think if they let the players carry their bats around the
    bases and use them for self defense baseball would bemore fun to 
    watch.
    
    				/Don

    
>>�For example, any true Steeler fan who passes someone on the street with a
>>�black and gold #32, 80, 88, or 12 knows whose number that other fan is 
>>displaying.
    
>>    But would someone outside of Pittsburgh?

Don't know why don't you ask someone?


Billl

    
    >>              <<< Note 7.8 by AXIS::ROBICHAUD "D-FENS" >>>

    >>	I think if they let the players carry their bats around the
    >>bases and use them for self defense baseball would bemore fun to 
    >>watch.
    
    >>				/Don

    I cain see it now, full contact baseball, eh???
    
    JaKe
    
    

    
   > I think if they let the players carry their bats around the
   > bases and use them for self defense baseball would bemore fun to 
   > watch.
    
    I can just see it: "Well, ladies and gentlemen, tonight is the
    long-awaited grudge match between the New York Yankees and the Boston
    Red Sox.  And you know that means-- you're gonna see it live-- the
    designated hitters will be squaring off with bats in foul ground at
    some point during the first inning.  That's how those DHs earn their 
    keep in this league.  Ever since notorious cheap-shot artist Jack 
    Clark put Yanks' star masher Steve Balboni out of action with a direct 
    Louisville Slugger shot to the kneecap, bloodthirsty Yankee fans have 
    been anxiously anticipating the return of da Ripper to Da Stadium.  
    And tonight's the night!  And there's Balboni out onto the field!  What
    a heartstring-tugging story to be played out tonight!"
    
    glenn
    

    The National League would stay purist, though, with the pitchers
    fighting fer themselves instead of being wimps and letting somebody
    else swing their bat.
    
    Cain ya see it, all the infielders wearing catchers garb whilst in the
    field??  And they could institute a rule whereas the batting team is
    allowed to station "attackers" just outside the foul lines, and when
    the ball is hit to the outfield, the race is on to the ball between the
    outfielder and the attacker, trying to disable the outfielder before he
    cain make the play.  
    
    More Balls hit down the line would become inside the park homers,
    that's fer sure.
    
    JaKe
    
    

    Hey that would be nothing new. See Roseboro vs. Marichal
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    HAHAHAHA,
    glenn waugamain, the Vince McMahon of baseball!  8^).
    All ya need is a tux and huge lats!!
    
    Muchos,
    MikeL
    

Baseball.

If there is one thread running continuously through the tapestry of 
American history and culture, it is surely baseball.  Throughout the
world, primitive cultures have handed down their histories, father to
son, elders to youngsters, through oral histories, told around
campfires, or in elaborate ceremonies.   In America, part of our history,
part of the bonding between fathers and sons, is accomplished through
baseball.

Springtime.  All winter long a young child's thoughts have rallied around
snow forts, snow men, sledding, snow ball fights, ice skating, perhaps
even hockey.  But let February pass, and March's Lion roar, and suddenly
that youngster is thinking of nothing but those first few tentative
throws, easily taken under the watchful eye of his Dad, who cautions
"Easy, son, don't wanna throw your arm out."

All winter long the mitt had sat on the closet shelf, a baseball tied
into it.  Every once in a while it was carefully oiled, the ball replaced,
the twine re-tied.

When March gives way to April, and April passes into May, and the sun
starts its age old habit of hanging around a little later in the day, 
those catches in the backyard become almost religious.

"Want a grounder now?  Remember, stay in front of it, keep your butt down,
use both hands....."

"Okay, pop fly coming at you, son.  Use both hands.   That's it...."


One night perhaps, Dad comes home a little early from work, which for
most kids is a treat in itself.   He grabs the bat, gathers up all the
balls, patiently waits for you to find your Red Sox or Yankees cap, which
is probably buried in the bottom or your closet, and off you go to the
ball field for some hitting practice.   Perhaps a little brother is
brought along to shag balls -- it will be his first introduction to the
elaborate dance that is baseball.


Time passes, you grow, your father's hair turns gray, and more wrinkles
appear on his face.  If you're not one of the chosen few who continue
to play ball past Little League, your thoughts turn to other things.
Your Dad no longer feels like playing catch, but he's still up for that
trip to the ball park.  Perhaps your first beer together is shared in
a bleacher seat somewhere, while you talk about a pitcher's ERA, or
whether the guy at first really does have a glove and not just a big 
stick.

You get older, your Dad gets older, you learn more baseball, even though you
don't play.   Now, instead of being participants in the dance, you watch from
the beyond the foul lines, ever vigiliant, ever appraising the abilities of
those on the diamond.

And even still, baseball is there.  You learn things about each other
that you never knew, things that were perhaps not able to be told in
the everyday rush of getting to work, of paying the bills, but come out
between innings of a game, in that idle conversation punctuated by the
slap of the warm-up pitches in the catcher's mitt.


"Did I ever tell you about the time I met Lou Gehrig?"

"YOU met LOU GEHRIG?"

"Yes."

"Where, when?"

"Well, it was at the 1936 All-Star game.  I was younger than you are now,
in fact I was (pause) 19.  Wow, that's over 50 years ago.  Well, anyway,
I was with my Uncle  -- you remember my Uncle Will, right?  Okay, well
I was with him, his brother-in-law, and my cousin Bill.  You've met Bill,
but you were pretty young so you might not remember him.

Anyway, the game was at Braves field in Boston, and I'll never forget it,
because it was the game where DiMaggio had the ball go through his legs.
He was young, then, DiMaggio, and he tried to catch a fly ball right
on his shoelaces, and the ball got by him.   

Now I'm not sure, but if I remember right, Schoolboy Rowe pitched in that
game too, and I had seen him play in Hartford -- minor league ball."


"Dad, what about Lou Gehrig????"


"Oh yeah, well after the game, we went to the Copley Hotel.  Uncle Will's
brother-in-law was friends with Gehrig, and we went over to meet him.
We chatted for quite a while.    Damn shame I never thought to ask him
for his autograph"

"Dad, you got something better than an autograph....."


Suddenly, a feeling that I hadn't had for a long, long time came over me.
It's that feeling that you get on the schoolyard, when your pride hasn't
started to come from your own acts, but still from the acts of your father.
I smiled, and inside my head that little innocent voice that lays dormant
for years at a time said "Wow, MY Dad met LOU GEHRIG".....


As I thought about it later, I could see the thread in the tapestry
of our history.  It carried me back, through HIS eyes, to a game in 
1936, at a field which no longer exists, to a player who, for me,
existed only in the stats in "Total Baseball", and who now has a little
more life than merely numbers on a page.....


And my dad, who I had seen for a long time as getting older, getting  grayer,
needing a hearing aid, to me was suddenly 19 again (an age that even I cannot
sometimes remember clearly any more), young, virile, his whole life ahead of
him, meeting one of the greats of the game.  It is a gift I shall never,
ever, forget.   

It was a moment in my life with all of the clarity, all of the completeness,
and all of the gravity, of a called third strike that ends a World Series
game.....

	Okay smart guy, I hope you got a cure for these permanant goose bumps
	you done raised on me.  

	That my friend will be printed out and framed on the "Wall on Fame"
	in the Long houshold right next to my picture of Roberto.


	Billl

Another crowning acheivement, Mr. Way.

Funny, your protagonist's Lou Gehrig is my Mickey Cochran.  My dad loved to 
relate the story of going into the Philly A's dougout after a game, and meeting
Cochran, who gave him his cap.

Just remember, there will be at least one dad (me) who will be hitting 
grounders to two little league aged GIRLS.  Sure glad they will be able to play.

=Bob=

>Another crowning acheivement, Mr. Way.
>
>Funny, your protagonist's Lou Gehrig is my Mickey Cochran.  My dad loved to 
>relate the story of going into the Philly A's dougout after a game, and meeting
>Cochran, who gave him his cap.

I've received words from other noters with similar stories, which I guess
confirms my theory of baseball being a major thread....


>Just remember, there will be at least one dad (me) who will be hitting 
>grounders to two little league aged GIRLS.  Sure glad they will be able to play.

A League of Their Own. 8^)    Maybe our culture will expand because
of that too.....


'Saw  

    This is to welcome Ernie Harwell back in the announcer's booth in Tiger
    stadium...
    
              <<< SHARPO::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]BASEBALL.NOTE;1>>>
                                 -< Baseball >-
================================================================================
Note 31.203                  The Detroit Tigers note                  203 of 342
CSC32::GULDEN                                        54 lines  24-AUG-1991 08:16
                  -< Ernie Harwell's definition of baseball >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    
  Here is Detroit Tiger's radio announcer Ernie Harwell's definition of baseball
written in 1955.


    
Baseball is a president tossing out the first ball of the season,
and a scrubby schoolboy playing catch with his dad on the Mississippi farm.

A tall thin old man waving a scorecard from the corner of his dugout.
That's baseball.

So is a big fat guy with a bulbous nose running home one of his 714 homeruns.

Baseball is a spirited race of man against man, reflex against reflex, a 
game of inches. Every skill is measured, every heroic, every failing seen and
cheered, or booed, and then becomes a statistic.

In baseball democracy shines its clearest. 

The only race that matters is a race to the bag.

Its creed is a rulebook and color merely something to distinguish one
teams uniform from another.

Baseball is a rookie, his experience no bigger that the lump in his throat, as 
he begins fulfillment of his dream.

It's a veteran too, a tired old man of 35, hoping those aching muscles can pull
him through another sweltering August and September.

Baseball, just a game, as simple as a ball and bat and yet as complex as the 
American spirit it symbolizes. Its a sport, a business, sometimes almost even
religion.

Why the fairy tale of Willie Mays making a brilliant World Series catch and 
then dashing off to play stickball with his teenage pals. That's baseball

And so is the husky voice of a doomed Lou Gehrig saying "I consider myself the
luckiest man on the face of this earth"

Baseball is cigar smoke, hot roasted peanuts, ladies day, down in front, take 
me out to the ball game, the seventh inning stretch, and the Star Spangled 
Banner

Baseball is a man named Campanella telling the nation's business leaders "You 
have to be a man to be a big leaguer, but you have to have a lotta little boy 
in you to". 

This is a game for America this baseball, a game for boys and for men.
    
    
    Wes
    

That's a classic essay there, Walt, that I have saved on disk.....


'Saw

    	Why does baseball inspire folks to write soapy sappy ballads?

    They're both beautiful.  'Saw, you put many of my feelings into words.
    I'll have forever lasting memories with my dad and baseball, from
    hitting me grounders to attending Game 7 of the World Series.  
    
    We both marvel and follow Nolan Ryan and attend his rare appearances
    here.  It'll be a sad day when he retires later this year.
    
    
    Spud

        <<< Note 7.22 by AXIS::ROBICHAUD "UNC-ExcellentLossInWaiting" >>>

>>    	Why does baseball inspire folks to write soapy sappy ballads?


 It gives them something to do instead of watchin the guy scratch their
 filberts per turbo_out_of_control's brillant essay on the state of
 baseball....

 mike

    
    I dunno why I particularly remember this incident since my Dad used to
    take me to many Bosox games when I was a yout'.
    Twas sitting a coupla rows behind the Sox dugout in the mid-60's wif
    Pop when Dr. Strangeglove, Dick Stuart, was playing first base for the
    Sox. Ol' Dick was holding a runner on firsat when this guy who was
    a row behind us stood up and yelled "Stuart, you stink!" and proceeded
    to throw a golf ball at Dr.Strangeglove. Poetic justice indeed as the
    golf ball went sailing through Stuart's laigs unbeknownst to all
    parties on the field.  Not to da ushers tho.. and the lad was un-
    ceremoniously tossed.
    
    MikeL
    

    
    
          Saw you did it again got me all emotional and everything.
    
    Wish I'd get some warning before this happens.
    
    
    Chappy

	Kinda reminds me of a song..."They oughta put warnin' labels
	on them sad country songs."


	billl

Did anyone see the piece on Steve Howe last night on 60 Minutes?

I had such ambivalent feelings afterwards.  I could see ALL sides of the
issue, and I can't firmly come down on any one side.

It's obvious Howe has a disease, and should get some treatment, and I hope
for his sake, and his family's sake he gets some help and stays off coke.

On the other hand, I can't see why MLB keeps letting this guy back in.
I mean, was what Pete Rose allegedly did MORE heinous than what Howe has
done?


The highlight for me was seeing Christopher Mad Dog Russo, from WFAN.
They didn't mention him by name, but they did mention something about
Mad Dog press.....8^)


Comments?  Questions?

'Saw

Am I the only person in the world that has a tough time characterizing addictions
like cocaine, alcohol and cigarettes as diseases?

IMO a disease is a germ or virus that somehow gets into your body and attacks it
or is generated by your body. It's something that happens w/ no recognition
or intervention by you.

I just have a tough time calling addicts that willingly stick stuff into
their bodies as having a disease. Yes, I recognise the need they have for help
but I still think they make the choice to do it..ie they bring it upon 
themselves, it doesn't just happen to them like cancer or diabetes.

Just my opinion,

 Metz
 

     	You got to love all those in the Yankee organization who "care"
    about Steve Howe the "person".  If he wasn't the best lefthanded
    reliever in the American League they wouldn't care if Steve Howe
    the "person" was lying in the alley behind some crack house.  That
    60 Minutes piece showed just about everything that's wrong in sports
    today.
    
    				/Don

Metz,

You could make the case for freedom of choice.  I think you can also
make the case for disease when an addiction of choice becomes a
physical dependency.

Is a diabetic's "need" for insulin a choice thing?  

The opposite side of that argument is that I don't think you can ever be
so into cocaine that your body needs it to survive (but I'm not positive).


At any rate, there are some who would categorize Howe as being a diseased
invidual, even if addiction is a psychological disease....



re /Don,

Agreed 100%.  To them, Howe is just a piece of meat to win ballgames
and make money.....


'Saw

    I assume (that word again) that Howe is getting treatment, failed, is
    trying again.
    
    Rose apparently rejects treatment or even the notion that he ever did
    anything wrong.  Some accounts have him betting not only on baseball
    but on the Reds and even against his own team.  That information has
    not been made public only that Giamati had very damning evidence.
    
    Finally, betting on a baseball game was spelled out in precise terms as
    meaning finito for the offender.  But they are spelling out the same
    message now for drug offenders and the one is as detrimental for bball
    today as the gambling was in 1922.
    
    Those are basic comments.  On the other side I personally distrust any
    and all evidence coming out of gambling allegations, witness the total
    carnage of justice perpetrated in the so-called BC gambling scandal.
    
    And I would like to see both Rose and Cepeda in HOF
    
    oth-bill

>Am I the only person in the world that has a tough time characterizing addictions
>like cocaine, alcohol and cigarettes as diseases?

It's not the personal choice issue it's the usage of the term disease. 
I think it's got a definate medical definition and I don't think that addictions
fit into the definition of a disease.

It's just one of those peeves of mine..like calling the lottery a regressive tax.
In my mind a tax is when the govt takes money off the top of an item you buy
or takes it directly off your income. IMO a regressive tax is when the fed 
govt decides that everybody will pay $25 a year toward reducing the national
debt because it doesn't take into account how much you make and you're given
no choice in the matter...the lottery is state run gambling and has nothing to
do with being a tax. If you don't want to buy a ticket then don't...


Oh well..1 day until a 12 day vacation...

 Metz
 

    Not a comment on Howe's situation, but a part of it, and Steinbrenner's
    situation, too, leads to this question:
    
    	"What, exactly, is a "Lifetime Ban" in baseball?
    
    How many years is that exactly?
    
    For Shoeless Joe Jackson, it was exactly that.  So far, the same holds
    true for Pete Rose.
    
    Lee

 According to some in the know, Alcholism/Substance addiction is caused
 by genetics. If this is so than you can see why they use the term
 diesease. I don't know if I buy that cause to me it's an easy cope
 out and easy to prove as almost everyone I know has a relative who has
 suffered. While there is evidence towards genetics I feel that it's
 more dependant upon one's mental state of mind...

 mike

I'll see if I can't get my brother to take a poll of the docs and see
what we can come up with on the disease aspect.

It is proven fact that the body does become physically dependent on the
drug.   The area I'm not sure of is whether or not removal of the drug
can literally cause death.


I'll also get a good medical definition of the term disease -- just so
we're all on the same page with this.....



As to baseball's lifetime ban, it's a joke.



'Saw

           
    For what it's worth, "baseball" didn't let Steve Howe back in the game,
    per se; it was a labor relations arbitrator who reviewed his case
    versus the Player Agreement and found Fay Vincent's lifetime ban without
    merit. 
    
    > If he wasn't the best lefthanded
    > reliever in the American League they wouldn't care if Steve Howe
    > the "person" was lying in the alley behind some crack house.
    
    I too feel that the characterization of Howe's problem as a disease is
    specious, but my response to the above is, "so what?".  The Yankees'
    attitude towards Howe is pretty close to the same as any other employer
    to a former addict, e.g. we don't much care what your problem is, but
    if you screw up, you're gone without pay.  That doesn't mean that one
    is forever banned from seeking future employment.  I think the only
    difference with baseball is the "role model" moralizing that the media
    loves to use, the very same media that will diligently work for a
    tawdry story (in Howe's case, any hint of a relapse would set off a
    feeding frenzy) in order to splatter it all over a tabloid headline, 
    without a second thought to the effects of such shoddy, cheap 
    "journalism" on those poor kids they seek to protect...
    
    I don't think that Howe "deserves" another chance (in any moral sense), 
    but if someone thinks he can be of use while he's clean, I don't have a
    problem with it.  I think it's a very poor risk that he'll stay clean,
    but that's the Yankees' gamble.
    
    glenn
     

    	Glenn, what I meant was that if Howe were a pitcher of marginal
    ability he would've never had 3 strikes, let alone 7.  And I don't
    believe for one minute that those in Yankee management agonized
    over whether they were doing the right thing for Steve Howe "the
    person".
    
    				/Don

I had a chance to talk to my brother last night (he came over with a 
copy of the MS-DOS 6.0 upgrade he bought for me), and we discussed
substance abuse as a disease.  This is what he told me.


Medically speaking, substance abuse is now classified as a disease, and is
treated as such.  (We didn't get into any legal implications of this).
He said he doesn't necessarily agree with this, but it's getting to be the
position of the medical community.

I told him that I thought it could be a disease considering the dependency
angle, and I asked about withdrawal from the drug being fatal.  What he
told me was really interesting.

He said with Cocaine, your mind becomes dependent on the drug, but there
is not a real physical dependency.  Thus, withdrawal, while painful,
is not a fatal type thing.

However, with heroin (and alcohol too), your body becomes dependent on
having that "fix", and that withdrawal can be very fatal.   That was
something I didn't know.


So, there you have a cut at it from the medical profession......


'Saw

    What about cigarettes, Saw?  There's definitely a physical addiction.
    
    As a side note:
    
    They kill about 1K per day, which is roughly the equivalent of two jumbo 
    jets filled to capacity having a mid air collision.  No survivors.
    
    And we taxpayers subsidize the farmers for the priviledge.
    

>    What about cigarettes, Saw?  There's definitely a physical addiction.
    
Well, we weren't talking about cigs, but I could probably speculate.

Cigarette withdrawal probably won't kill ya.  Continued usage could, I 
guess.....


'Saw

    People don't smoke
    
    The cigarette smokes, the people just suck and blow.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    
    Yabbut didn't lasted year the Fabulous Casey suck Dickstah's face at
    Fenway and make him smoke?
    
    ps-The mention of fenway was to keep it related to the American League.
    Moving it would be a_injustice!
    
    I remain,
    wondering what was on Dickstah's mind at the time?  ;^)
    Kev
    

    too bad Po'T isn't here to celebrate the 20th anniversary of the DH!

    Anyone see that tantrum by Hal McRae?  Wow!
    
    Joe

    I saw it.  That's really out of character for soft-spoken Hal.

    
    I have to believe that the tantrum by McRae was pre-meditated, given
    the innocence of the question that set him off ("did you consider
    pinch-hitting Brett for Miller in the 7th?").  In between all the 
    bleeps and flying dictation machinery, McRae's answer was non-sensical, 
    something about Miller starting against lefties, even though Detroit 
    had brought in a righthanded reliever by that point in the game.
    
    I can understand the frustration with constantly being second-guessed,
    but it comes with the territory on a losing team, and that wasn't
    exactly the ideal opportunity to make a point, when the guy was asking
    you a valid question on game strategy.  In any case, McRae didn't 
    really want the job when it was offered to him, and he's not that good 
    a manager anyway, so I expect he'll be out, maybe in a matter of days...
    
    glenn
     

    I think stress just took its toll... and he snapped.  A lot of second
    guessing and questions about his job have been presented lately...

    
    ...Catch the poor reporter who made the painful face save wiff the
    clock radio that ol' Hal hurled?....ouch!
    
    
    Melster

I think he wants to get fired. He's always said he wants the hitting coach
job and not the manager job.

There's got to be some qualified candidates out there that want to be 
managers.


I'm sure Johnny Mac, Bill Plummer and a few others are in need of a job.


Metz

>I think he wants to get fired. He's always said he wants the hitting coach
>job and not the manager job.


This is so unusual for a manager to admit.  I wonder how many DEC 
managers really feel this way????


'Saw

re:.52

And don't forget 'ol Davey Johnson

The Crazy Met

    Chris Chambliss?  What happened to him?
    

    
> And don't forget 'ol Davey Johnson
    
    Always good to have a guy at the controls capable of blowing out the
    arms of the brightest young pitching prospects you're ever going to 
    see (Doc Gooden)...
    
    glenn

    
>    Always good to have a guy at the controls capable of blowing out the
>    arms of the brightest young pitching prospects you're ever going to 
>    see (Doc Gooden)...
    
 
 ouch ouch ouch and double ouch....

 mike

    
    The film of McRae's fit that I saw shows him hangin' onto a 1.75 litre
    bottle of vodka - might'a had something to do with the outburst ?
    
    - acp

    I still have T's address if ya want to send him a "Happy DH 20th 
    Anniversary" card!

    Quite the snafu by Jose last night.
    
    For those who didn't hear about it, Canseco was attempting to make a
    catch at the wall but he missed it and the ball bounced off his head
    (Yes, off his head!) and over the wall for a homer. 
    
    
    Joe

re: Jos�

At least it didn't hit him anywhere he could be hurt.

     I bet the ball was ruined! Flat spot on it!

    
    >> I bet the ball was ruined! Flat spot on it!
    
    Not to mention all the damned GREASE!!!
    
    JaKe
    

    Why do you say that?

    Cause it was probably all soaked thru his hat, by then.
    
    JaKe
    

    Does he wear grease? Or is there some other reason he would have grease
    on his haid?
    
    Ben

>    Does he wear grease? Or is there some other reason he would have grease
>    on his haid?
    

Well, unless he's been working up under his car.

I don't know about Jake, but the last time I saw Canseco, he looked like
an ad for Vitalis.....

hth,
'Saw

    
      A truly rare thing, a good piece by Michael Madden, in today's
     Globe about Sam Jethroe and his trip from the Negro Leagues to the 
     Majors. Worth the price of the paper.

�only the ball was white

Great book on the subject too.  Read it years ago, will have to pick it up 
again.

    
>�only the ball was white
>
> Great book on the subject too.  Read it years ago, will have to pick it up 
> again.
    
    I think the book has also been updated from the time when it was first
    published (1970), with more information, stories, etc.  A lot more
    research on the Negro Leagues has been done in that time...
    
    glenn
    

    I remember the crowd at Braves Field yelling "GO GO GO GO GO" whenever
    Sam got on 1st.  And he did.  Boy, he was fast.
    
    Think I'll ask to get the book for Father's Day.
    
    Lee

    It is ironic that the Canseco ball off the head should be followed by
    the Sam Jethroe note as Sam, National League rookie of the year in
    1950, also had the misfortune of having a ball hit him on the head.
    
    And with all the stereotyping of the period it was the one thing he was
    always associated is much like Pesky's "holding the ball" in 1946.
    
    Must get that globe article

    	There's a great Tank McNamara cartoon in today's Globe too.
    Could you have pictured that vintage 1940's Red Sox team with Jethroe
    and Robinson?
    
    				/Don

            
    > Could you have pictured that vintage 1940's Red Sox team with Jethroe
    > and Robinson?
    
    How about Jackie Robinson and Willie Mays?  The Sox looked at both
    first in fake "tryouts".  Then throw in Pee Wee Reese, who was traded
    from the Sox' system to the Dodgers.  With Ted Williams this could have
    been the greatest team of all time in the early 1950s.  The Red Sox' 
    bigotry and stupidity in this period is mind-boggling.
    
    glenn
     

    That's based on the tribute at the game tomorrow, right?  Anyone going?
    

    
> That's based on the tribute at the game tomorrow, right?  Anyone going?
    
    I'll be there.  With this Negro League tribute it sounds like more
    stars will be there than usual, including Ernie Banks.  I'd like to be
    able to meet Banks and get an autograph, because he's always been
    another family favorite.  Banks used to regularly visit a hunting camp
    (pheasants) that my uncle owned in Worthington PA, and was an mild 
    acquaintance of the family before I was born (this same uncle used to 
    be the grounds manager at Kennywood amusement park, which I suspect is 
    where the non-politically correct JaKe had those poor kids bounced
    from last weekend-- had he still been there I'm sure my uncle would
    have straightened out that mean old JaKe!).
    
    glenn
    

    	I would go, but it's been two weeks since I've been to the track
    and I really got the itch.
    
    				/Don

  � 	I would go, but it's been two weeks since I've been to the track
  �     and I really got the itch.
    
Yea, dem horses have plenty of fleas to take home...
  

    
    >>acquaintance of the family before I was born (this same uncle used to 
    >>be the grounds manager at Kennywood amusement park, which I suspect is 
    >>where the non-politically correct JaKe had those poor kids bounced
    >>from last weekend-- had he still been there I'm sure my uncle would
    >>have straightened out that mean old JaKe!).
    
    Damned straight I'm non-politically correct, and proud of it.
    
    And as far as mean and old goes, a lot on the mean, not so much on the
    old.
    
    JaKe
    

    BTW, re Canseco.  There's a soccer team in Eastern Pennsylvania that,
    after he "headered" the ball over the fence, sent Canseco a telegram
    offering him a position on their team, being as he has mastered the
    head shot.
    
    If he hadn't been wearing a hat, the damned ball woulda stuck in the
    Brylcream-ed hair, and would it then have been ruled an out????  That's
    what I was getting at, the garbage he uses to slick that mane back.
    
    I just wish I had some hair on this haid to us something on!!  (8^)
    What, with shaving the beard off 4 weeks ago, the head looks like
    tundra now.
    
    JaKe
    

     brylcream, a little Dab will do ya,
     Better watch out or the balls will all pursue ya.

�I'd like to be
�    able to meet Banks and get an autograph, 
    
    You shoulda been in my hotel on Friday night.  A friend of mine spotted
    him in the lobby.

    Jose added to his personal highlight film by pitching an inning of
    relief against the Red Sox.  He walked 3 and gave up 3 runs.

>    Jose added to his personal highlight film by pitching an inning of
>    relief against the Red Sox.  He walked 3 and gave up 3 runs.


With guys like Jose pitching, Sam Malone could have made it to Cooperstown!

His ERA is a whopping 27.00.


That was an interesting series, though.  In Sunday's game one of the
pitchers for Texas actually had to bat.


Quick question:  Did WSBK TV-38 have technical difficulties around 5pm?
	        

The reason why is this:  my cable company split TV-38 with the Travel Channel.
At precisely 5pm, in the bottom of the 11th inning, they cut to the travel
Channel.  I was livid.  I called the company, and they told me they were
having difficulties and were working on it.

when the game ended at 5:22, the Travel Channel was still on.  Normally
I'm a very laid back person, but I called the cable company and told them
that if I was as lax in paying my bill as they were in fixing their
difficulties that they'd have shut my service off long before.
The person I spoke with didn't know if it was difficulty at the cable
channel, or at TV-38.

Any ideas?

'Saw

    Since when does Mac own a hotel?
    

    I was at Fenway, 'Saw, and I can personally attest that there were no
    technical difficulties with the live virtual reality feed.  Great game,
    too.  Amazing that you can't even tell it from the real thing.  I think
    you should continue to raise hell with your cable company until they
    get your transponder fixed...
    
    glenn
    

I was livid.  I felt like it was the Heidi fiasco all over again.

Never mind the fact that the Travel Channel was showing scuba diving in the
American Virgin Islands, and that they had some truly bodacious babes in
skimpy scuba stuff.  I was livid.


I'm glad the reality feed worked well.  I'll have to head up that way more
often and check it out!


'Saw

> Never mind the fact that the Travel Channel was showing scuba diving in the
> American Virgin Islands, and that they had some truly bodacious babes in
> skimpy scuba stuff.  I was livid.

Me thinks Saw's been workin' too hard....

mike

Yeah, Mikey, I think I have been.

I've got to get out more I think......8^)

    Well, to make the Hockey fans happy I guess I should point out there
    was a BaseBrawl in Anaheim the other night.  A few brushback pitches
    were thrown in a game between the Angels and the Blue Jays.  Tempers
    were flaring, an Angel hits a homerun right after a teammate got
    plunked.  The guy who was hit says something to the Blue Jays'
    thirdbaseman after scoring and next thing you know both benches are
    empty, the fans are throwing their free souvenier baseballs at the
    players and it took about 20 minutes and 6 ejections to get things
    settled down again.

    HAHAHAHA.
    Free souvenir baseball night?? Combine that with nickle beer night
    in Cleveland.....
    If this was hokey, thev outcries would be voluminous. Imagine if some
    knucklehaid had free souvenir puck night?? Was bad enough at free
    souvenir poster night this year in the Gahden.
    
    Ignoramous feigns is ignoramous feigns no matter the sport.
    I can't wait for souvenir bat night again in Yankme Stadium.
    
    MikeL
    

    
    Why would that make hockey fans happy ? Nothing to do with hockey,
    but rather overpaid ballplayers that like to wait until a teamate is
    behind them before suckerpunching an opposing player. Nothing like a
    bench emptying donneybrook in baseball, Heck even the fans were showing
    thier displeasure by bombarding the players with thier own $8.95
    official souveniers. Now thats pissed. I saw it last night on the news
    and could'nt help but laugh myself right out of the room.
    
    How many fights total in the NHL playoffs so far ?

    I think in Yankee stadium they have HAND GUN night. 

�    Why would that make hockey fans happy ? 
    
    Because some of them have been complaining that hockey has been
    unjustly singled out for the violence and that there is never any
    mention by the media when an incident such as the one in Anaheim
    occurs.

A really good baseball promotion would be "Mace Night".

    There was no suckerpunching going on in that brawl the other night, at
    least nothing like the cowardly cheapshots we saw recently with tough
    guys Hunter and McSorley.  That was actually one of the few *real*
    fights you'll see in baseball, where a whole bunch of guys squared off
    and went at it (as opposed to the pig pile on the instigator).  Very
    ugly...
    
    glenn
     

    Glenn, Do me a favor and take off youe MLB glasses will ya ? What I saw
    on the news clips was a Jay charging into a pile of players and seeing
    an Angel getting bopped on the back of the haid. Unless of course I was
    watching a different fight. 
    
    But then again this was a *real* fight so I guess it's justified.
    
    -TH

    
    > But then again this was a *real* fight so I guess it's justified.
    
    No, the opposite.  That's why I said that it was "ugly".  This was one
    of those rare incidents where rather than having 48 guys and a bunch of
    coaches watching a wrestling match in progress there was actually some
    potential for injury.  But I repeat, I saw nothing like someone coming
    up on a guy from the blindside and using the stick as a weapon to his
    head or neck (not a fight, and not a bench-clearing brawl, so it
    doesn't count, I guess).  When the dust settles I'm sure there will be 
    actual suspensions coming to the guys who inflamed this thing.  The
    lasy guy to do so, Joey Belle, the Indians' best bat right now, is 
    sitting out the weekend.
                            
    glenn
    

    Clevescum has "Fertilizer Night", where everybody attending gets to
    take home a shovelful of infield material.
    
    The night before "Hand Gun night" in NY, they have "Bulletproof Vest
    Night."
    
    Schnorttt Schittt Schleppps
    
    JaKe
    

    Pittsburg(h) has Mannequin Night.  Every fan entering the park gets a
    mannequin to place in the adjacent seat to give the TeeVee audience the
    illusion that the place is more than half full.
    
    Mark.

    
    That BAltimore game was really something ? I think MLB needs a third
    man in rule, would'nt you agree.
    
    I especially liked the part of having to bring security in to break up
    the fight because it was so out of control.
    
    -TH

    > That BAltimore game was really something ? I think MLB needs a third
    > man in rule, would'nt you agree.
    
    It looks like it's getting to be that way, yes.  When the thing looks 
    like it's getting settled down and then a punk like Norm Charlton's gotta
    come in out of the bullpen to get in his own action, something should
    be done.  Highly embarrassing to baseball (and to me) that after the 
    better part of a year without ugliness like this, you see it twice in one
    week...
    
    glenn
    

    Sigh, and I went to the game on Saturday night...
    

�    That BAltimore game was really something ? I think MLB needs a third
�    man in rule, would'nt you agree.
    
    I'm sure TH will be glad to know that 7 players were suspended as a
    result of this brawl.

    
    Dodgers vs. Rockies, what up with dat ?
    
    -TH

    Carlton Fisk passes Bob Boone on the all-time list for games caught.

	Just got finished reading this week's S.I. article about Cal 
Ripken.  It's absolutely amazing that in this day and age where baseball 
players go on the disabled list with ailments that the average Joe has to 
trudge to work with, Cal is criticized for wanting to give a full day's 
work for his pay.  Course the flip side is the idiot GetALifers who dog 
Ripken trying to get his autograph in the hopes he does break Lou Gherig's 
record and increase the value of his signature.  I hope he has a great 
second half and stuffs it back in his critics' faces.

				/Don

    AL All-star team?
    
     C Tettleton Harper
    1B Olerud	 Fielder, Thomas
    2B Alomar	 Baerga
    SS Fryman
    3B Boggs     Cooper
    OF Gonzalez  G. Vaughn
       Griffey   Curtis
       Carter    Belle
       Molitor
    
    P McDowell, Key, Mussina, Olson, Eck, Johnson, Clemens, Montgomery

Clemens??

The Crazy Met

    That  was for Mike...
    
    Actually, wasn't sure if I'd put Cooper over Ventura, and you need a
    Boston rep, and Roger will whine if he doesn't get picked, so...
    

    FWIW, Gammons picks Ranger Dean Palmer for his 3B because of the
    homeruns.

re:.114

Yeah, thats right there is that 1 player per team rule.
They should do away with that rule, with maybe one exception - the host
city should have at least one player represented. At the very least
they should increas the roster since expansion is making it even
tougher to select the team.

The Crazy Met

    My picks (28 players, 1 per team required)

    Starters              Reserves               Pitchers
    c  I.Rodriguez (TEX)  c  B.Harper (MIN)      p  J.McDowell (CHI)
    1b J.Olerud (TOR)     1b M.McGwire (OAK)     p  J.Key (NY)
    2b R.Alomar (TOR)     2b L.Whitaker (DET)    p  M.Mussina (BAL)
    ss T.Fryman (DET)     ss G.Gagne (KC)        p  R.Johnson (SEA)
    3b W.Boggs (NY)       3b R.Ventura (CHI)     p  M.Langston (CAL)
    of J.Gonzalez (TEX)   of G.Vaughn (MIL)      p  D.Wells (DET)
    of K.Griffey (SEA)    of A.Belle (CLE)       p  J.Montgomery (KC)
    of J.Carter (TOR)     of K.Curtis (CAL)      p  R.Aguilera (MIN)
                          dh P.Molitor (TOR)     p  D.Ward (TOR)
                          1b M.Vaughn (BOS)      
                          of P.O'Neill (NY)

    Rodriguez over Tettleton?
    

   Boggs over Anybody????????

    MikeC I am sure that they put Boggs in to see your reaction.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    I don't think so.  Boggs is quietly coming around to his normal spot as
    one of the best 3B in the AL.

    Sigh... yeah I know...

    I'm surprised at you, Tommy.  I didn't take you as a flash over
    substance kind of guy.

    Yeah, but that's what makes the all-star game...
    

    Personality doesn't win baseball games.  Ask Pete Rose or Ty Cobb.  The
    only ones who "knew" Wade could hit 30 HRs a year if he wanted to were
    the Boston media and the sniping fans.

    No, it goes back to the 1987 season when Boggs hit 20+ HR's. But then
    again lots of players hit their carrer high in HR's that season.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
    

    
    I'd figured that the Wade-bashers would at least have the decency to
    lie low for a while until Boggs really has hit the skids (it won't be
    that long, after all, maybe next year).  No, he's not quite the 
    hitting-machine Wade Boggs of old, but the guy is still getting the 
    job done quite reasonably.  Yes, maybe even at a borderline All-Star 
    level for third basemen.
    
    [Non-homerific statement inserted here for the benefit of JD:]  ;-)
                          
    Boston fans have generally struck out without so much as a swing on the
    subject of Wade Boggs...
     
    glenn
    

    No, TCM, that 20-HR season was simply used to justify their
    "knowledge".

    I pretty much concur with Walt's picks except I have to get Devon White
    on the team.
    
    Also, with game at Balt. do they use dh this year?  Else, Molitor can
    be 3b.
    
    In fact virtually the entire team can be Toronto
    (Carter,White,Alomar,Olerud,Molitor), Fryman is okay(Gagne,Guillen?)
    and perhaps Harper at catcher.

    If you put Devo there, who do you drop?  Curtis, Vaughn are there
    because their teams need reps. 

    Assuming 28, not 25...
    
     C Tettleton Harper
    1B Olerud	 Fielder, Thomas
    2B Alomar	 Baerga   Whitaker
    SS Fryman    Vizquel
    3B Boggs     Palmer   Cooper
    OF Gonzalez  G. Vaughn
       Griffey   Curtis
       Carter    Belle
       Molitor
    
    P McDowell, Key, Mussina, Olson, Eck, Johnson, Clemens, Montgomery

    

    	I was just wondering...  All I read about this year was how Carlton
    Fisk was an outcast in the White Sox clubhouse, a loner who the team
    was better off without.  Then why did the players give this big party
    for Fisk?  Why do they wear his number on the back of their caps as a
    tribute?  You damn well know management has nothing to do with it.
    Geez, I mean, the media wouldn't lie to us, would they?
    
    				/Don

    All I know is that regardless of what had been said before from Fisk to
    management or from management to Fisk, that upon the occasion of a 
    future HOFer finally being let go like as Fisk was Jerry Reinsdorf's
    statement of "this move gives the other 45 guys a chance to win" had to 
    be one of the lowest, most classless things I've ever heard from a
    baseball management type (and that's saying something).  You want to
    publicly do battle with a guy over his contract or other business
    matters, fine, but you don't come out and say that Carlton Fisk was
    anything less than a winner on the field of play as he leaves the game.
    Not too long ago there was a time when I was hoping that an old
    traditional team like the Chicago White Sox would finally break through 
    and go back to the World Series, but as long as Reinsdorf is in control 
    of the team I can no longer do that.
    
    glenn
    

    Fisk? winner? Uh lets see, one pennant, no WS, one division title? or
    was it 2 (1983 White Sox?)
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    >Fisk? winner? Uh lets see, one pennant, no WS, none division title? or 
    >was it 2 (1983 White Sox?)
    
    >   -< what planet did you descend from? >-
    
    Hey, if the 1962 Mets had a batter bat 1.000 for the season, they still
    would not have won the pennant.  Are you trying to tell us that the
    accomplishments of the team dictate whether an individual is a winner
    or not?  Pretty dumb statement to make if you ask me.
    
    The point being made was that the management forced a player out of the
    game and said the wrong things.  Whether they are true are not today
    are not the point.  It should have been a cleaner break.
    
    Marc
    

    I am just trying to figure out what was meant by the term winner here.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

>    I am just trying to figure out what was meant by the term winner here.
    
How 'bout someone who wins games when they're on the line.  How 'bout
someone who inspires others and by their example forces others to another
level.

Some of the greatest players to play the game, players who are in the HoF,
never won a pennant or World Series and yet, to me, they can be considered
winners.


Re Glenn:

	Did you see McDowell's remarks on Fisk on the Sunday Night
	chat on ESPN Sport Center?


'Saw    

    
    Get a clue, TCM.
    
    >	Did you see McDowell's remarks on Fisk on the Sunday Night
    >	chat on ESPN Sport Center?
    
    I didn't see it but I did read that McDowell said that some people have
    compared his occasional hard-headedness to Fisk's, and even though
    they're very different people, he considers that to be a high
    compliment.  As /Don pointed out, after the fact suddenly Fisk isn't
    this disruptive clubhouse personality after all.
    
    White Sox' management did make the team take off the #72 caps...
    
    glenn
    

    	Regardless of how you feel about Fisk's accomplishments (personally
    I would take a guy on my team that played through an injury at the end
    of the '78 season that today's sissies would take the whole year off
    for), I got the impression through an earlier S.I. article and other
    pieces I read that Fisk's release would be celebrated by the White Sox
    players because of his bad influence.  Looks like the Chicago owner had
    more than one pundit in his back pocket whoring for him.
    
    				/Don

    
    Yabbut yesterday in the Old Timer's All Star Game, the 'Merican league
    beat the National league.  Considering *That* little gem AND the fact
    that the 'Merican League has won the lasted 5 (? or so) All Star games,
    one cain only arrive at the conclusion that the 'Merican League style
    of baseball (as well as their athletes) is far superior to that faux
    style played in the National League!
    
    nuff said, the fakts speak for themselves!
    
    I remain,
    glad to be a 'Merican!
    Kev
    

    
    
          Unbelievable that Cito did not bring Mussina in in the 9th. I
    thought the Baltimore fans were gonna lynch him.
    
    
    
    Chappy

	I agree, it seems rather classless of Cito to have Mussina warming
	up and not bring him in to pitch.  I guess it was Cito's way of
	getting back at the fans for booing the Jays' players.  I suspect
	they next time Toronto has to play against Mussina in Camden Yards,
	they can expect a very tough game.

Bush league act by Gaston not to bring in Mussina. When even the announcers
come down that hard on a manager it means the guy real f**ked up.

The Crazy Met

    The scuttlebutt I heard was that Mussina went down to the bullpen on
    his own to warmup.  (i.e. Cito didn't axe him to warm up.)
    
    FWIW,
    
    
    - MLB Chris

changes nothing.

The Crazy Met

    	It does Craze.  Mussina damn well knew what the crowd reaction would
    be if he's out there in the bullpen warming up.  Could be why Cito
    didn't put him in.
    
    				/Don

    Cain anybody believe how stupid Bobby Cox was yesterday, telling "his"
    team that the National League was superior to the American prior to the
    game?
    
    Hallooo, Bobby Cox.  Ya've lost the last two (2) WS's (in his case,
    personally!), the last six (6) or so All-Star games.  There ain't no
    way the NL had a better starting lineup last night, and the starting
    pitcher was 9-6.  
    
    Unfortunately these kinds of comments are symptomatic of Bobby's
    inexplicable hard-headedness that have cost the Braves games.  (i.e.
    I'll NEVER pinch-hit for Greg Olsen, *ever*)
    
    
    - MLB Chris

    
    > Hallooo, Bobby Cox.  Ya've lost the last two (2) WS's (in his case,
    > personally!), the last six (6) or so All-Star games.  There ain't no
    > way the NL had a better starting lineup last night, and the starting
    > pitcher was 9-6.  
    
    And it was his own troops once again out there leading the way in
    stinking the place out.  Poor, poor Bobby Cox would like to win one
    for the NL for a change.  Next time try leaving some of your guys at 
    home!
    
    > Unfortunately these kinds of comments are symptomatic of Bobby's
    > inexplicable hard-headedness that have cost the Braves games.  (i.e.
    > I'll NEVER pinch-hit for Greg Olsen, *ever*)
    >
    >           -< Bobby Cox's stock has dropped precipitously. >-
    
    You are so correct, sir!
    
    glenn
    
    
    

    	Got a kick out of seeing CBS pretty boy over at Boog Powell's
    BARBQ pit.  The food there was pretty good, 'specially the beans.
    
    				/Don

    Is that inside the stadium or just outside?
    
    Murph
    

    Mussina, showing the kind of class he had, tried to cover for Gaston
    by saying he was warming up on his own.  Gaston later admitted he
    told him to warm up "in case the National League tied it up, he
    would be ready to pitch in extra innings."
    
    Yeah right, Cito.  Duane Ward was gonna blow that 6 run lead in the
    9th.
    
    NAZZ

    I just have to disagree.  Now perhaps Cito should have brought in
    Mussina in the 9th for the inning.  But, in the absence of any nl
    action in the inning how could he just bring in Mussina to exhibit him
    in front of the home fans.
    
    Now I'm not Bob "Baseball Purity" Costas but stopping an inning like
    that would have been a bit much.
    
    Now if game was in boston and it was Clemons (sic?)
    
    And besides Cito wanted to get outta there.
    
    And Sean McDonough seemed to overplay the whole thing into wwIII or the
    French Revolution (to be topical).
    
    And speaking of the French Revolution it seems that along with Louis
    xvII was Count Thrownbury, his exchequer (the guy with the loot). He
    was guillotined along with Louis and Marie but Robespierre was ticked
    because they hadn't gotten the location of the treasure out of Marvy
    despite torturing him.
    
    So hence came those famous last words of the french revolution...
    
    
    
    Never Hatchet Your Counts Before they Chicken
    
    
    (that's what mr. peabody told me)
    
    Guillaume

    re: Sean McDunuh
    
    It used to be that a Play-by-Play announcer would simply wax_eloquent 
    on a given topic, allowing comparisons to be evaluated by the listener. 
    But last night early on Sean-baby felt the need to tell us that:
    
    A. "Camden Yard Is The Best Ballpark in Baseball."  There was no need
       to debate the matter - it simply "is", just like gravity.
    
    B. "Barry Bonds is The Best Player in Baseball."  On this point Sean
       wavered only slightly, at least allowing that "most baseball 
       experts agree".  (Not sure what poll he was sighting, or who was
       included among the experts.)
    
    I'm not debating either point (although I find it difficult to believe
    I'm gonna like Camden Yard better than Fenway) but the fack is cain't
    these guys at least give us, the listeners, the benefit of the doubt to
    draw our own opinions?!  Must we be led like sheep and told what the
    best park is, who the best player is, etc, etc.
    
    
    - MLB Chris

    Chris,
    	You must excuse us new englanders when it comes to baseball.  We
    are (self appointed) cogniscenti on the subject, assuming we have any
    passing interest in the game at all.  That is, experts on all the
    little things about the game like intricacies of the double play,
    greenness of the grass etc.
    
    	Sean, son of Will, has it in his genes and cannot help himself.  It
    doesn't apply necessarily to basketball and you might find him less of
    an elite authority there.
    
    	Down south I think you would find a similar type of person on the
    subject of football.
    
    Gil'

    > Down south I think you would find a similar type of person on the
    > subject of football.
    
    Or even basketball.  You might even hear such an unabashed unsupported
    unsolicited statement of fack such as "Dean > Wooden" from down there 
    in the right circles...
                                                     
    I don't have a real problem with the second example "Barry Bonds, best 
    player in baseball".  That one goes in the empirically self-evident, 
    needs-no-explanation category.  It's a definite "just is, like 
    gravity".
    
    glenn
     

    1) Camden >> Fenway.  Many reasons including the atmosphere, your knees
    aren't in your ears when  you sit down, there are monitors at your seat
    so you can watch replays and the tv feed, more than one type of beer,
    they serve it to you at your seat, you can get more to eat than cold
    burgers, sausages and an overcooked hotdog, they have urinals instead
    of troughs...
    
    2) Mussina should have pitched part of the 9th.  Ward came in to do it,
    why not Mussina instead?  Do you think Ward's gonna blow a 6 run lead?
    Do you think Ward comes in against the RedSox in a 6 run game in the
    9th?  If he needed an extra pitcher, why not use Hentgen then?  Or was
    he saving him for his own team's benefit?
    

    re: Mussina
    
    One of the classiest things that I saw a manager do was in game 5 of
    the 1988 World Series. It was the 9th inning, LA was leading by a
    number of runs and led the series 3-1. LaRussa made at least one, maybe
    2, mid-inning substitutions in the 9th with no threat by LA so that all
    players on his roster would get to be in a WS game. Gaston should
    have followed that example as far as pitching Mussina.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    I read where Sparky Anderson, who was a coach for the AL, said Gaston
    did the O's a favor in that Mussina will be fresh for a start, and that
    is why he didn't put him in at that point.  Afterall, who knows how
    long he might have had to pitch?
    
    Good point, if true.
    
    Lee

Gaston blew it, and should be reprimanded.  One other beef: MLB says it
can't control who the fans vote in, but it sure as hell can control who
the mgr puts on the team.  The # of Atlanta Braves (most of whom I don't
consider All-Star caliber players) on the NL squad was a disgrace.

Both these mgrs will get their's, as neither is going to win the WS
this year.

    
    > I read where Sparky Anderson, who was a coach for the AL, said Gaston
    > did the O's a favor in that Mussina will be fresh for a start, and that
    > is why he didn't put him in at that point.  Afterall, who knows how
    > long he might have had to pitch?
    
    That's more the reason he didn't use his own starter, Hentgen, who had
    pitched on Saturday.  The same rationale above could be used for *any*
    of the non-relief pitchers who appeared.  The fact is that Mussina got
    up on his own and was practically *begging* to come in.  I suspect that
    Sparky is doing his part and deflecting some of the well-deserved heat
    that is being pointed in Gaston's direction.
    
    glenn
    

�One other beef: MLB says it
�can't control who the fans vote in, but it sure as hell can control who
�the mgr puts on the team.  
    
    Supposedly the league presidents were in on the selection.

                                                                        
    > 1) Camden >> Fenway.  Many reasons including the atmosphere, your knees
    > aren't in your ears when  you sit down, there are monitors at your seat
    > so you can watch replays and the tv feed, more than one type of beer,
    > they serve it to you at your seat, you can get more to eat than cold
    > burgers, sausages and an overcooked hotdog, they have urinals instead
    > of troughs...
    
    Sure, but sadly, "better" facilities and the absence of monitors, catered
    dining service areas, luxury boxes (all of which detract from the 
    atmosphere, imo, and which you pay double for) will eventually be used 
    as justification to tear down the last true dinosaurs Fenway, Wrigley,
    and Tiger Stadium.  I like the Camden Yards of the world taking the 
    place of the concrete monstrosities of the 1960s and 1970s, but the old
    should be able to co-exist with the new.
    
    glenn
      

    Haven't been to Wrigley, but I have been to Tiger and Fenway.  I'm
    leaving the historical significance  (and money incentives) out of it.
      
    As far as the ability of the park to cater to the customer wants, Camden 
    is head and shoulders above what Fenway and Tiger Stadium offer.  
    I would say if the concessions and dining services were upgraded at
    Fenway, Tiger stadium, etc, I'd say stay there, provided it was safe
    and comfortable to go there.  The stadiums you mention should be torn down 
    at some point because the place is becoming unsafe and too costly too
    overhaul.. All of them are what?  75 years old?  I admit I was
    skeptical when they said they wanted to move the Tigers to the 'burbs, 
    but after going last year, you can see where supports are rusting, paint
    cracks (I hope it was just the paint), etc.  I love Tiger Stadium, but
    I don't want to sit 3 hours with my knees in my ears.  Tiger Stadium
    does have the monitors, so they beat Fenway that way.  
    
    I'd never pay to sit in a luxury box, so that argument doesn't do it for 
    me.  I was at Memorial Stadium too, and if you think Camden isn't above and 
    beyond that,  well, that's your opinion I suppose.
    
    But there's other things too.  Went to Oakland Alameida last year.  Did
    you know that once a month, they have 4-5 A's sign autographs (for a $5-10
    a pop, profits go to charity) at the stadium after the game?  At
    Veterans and Oakland-Alameida, they have pitching machines, and play
    areas for kids?  In Royals Stadium, they have a section set aside for
    the Royals hall of fame, with plaques, uniforms, etc?  That's the kind
    of stuff I'm talking about.  It doesn't take a new stadium to provide
    that.  Heck, Pawtucket's at least got a mural with players that have
    passed through there, pizza, fried dough, etc.  That's more exciting than 
    Fenway.  The Sox don't do it because they don't have to.  The fans come
    anyway, why should they make the Park and the team more appealing?
                                             

    > I'd never pay to sit in a luxury box, so that argument doesn't do it for 
    > me.  I was at Memorial Stadium too, and if you think Camden isn't above and 
    > beyond that,  well, that's your opinion I suppose.
    
    That wasn't my point.  You don't have to sit in a luxury box to pay for
    the privilege of having such amenities built into the stadium.  You pay 
    regardless.  Regular seats are now on average, what, close to double at 
    Camden Yards than comparable seats were at Memorial?  It's not an issue 
    if you have the money (and many regulars at Camden Yards do), but 
    otherwise it's a major factor.  As a visiting tourist there's no question
    that I'd prefer Camden.  As an everyday season-ticket holder with a
    modest income and a primary interest in *baseball*, I'd probably still
    take Camden over Memorial, because Memorial wasn't a great park, but
    I'd feel it in the wallet.  For the price of cheap, *good* bleacher
    seats, I definitely prefer Fenway.
    
>    But there's other things too.  Went to Oakland Alameida last year.  Did
>    you know that once a month, they have 4-5 A's sign autographs (for a $5-10
>    a pop, profits go to charity) at the stadium after the game?  At
>    Veterans and Oakland-Alameida, they have pitching machines, and play
>    areas for kids?  In Royals Stadium, they have a section set aside for
>    the Royals hall of fame, with plaques, uniforms, etc?  That's the kind
>    of stuff I'm talking about.  It doesn't take a new stadium to provide
>    that. 
    
    Some of these things they could do, others I consider hokey.  It's all
    a matter of taste.  You've not listed some of the absolute *crap* that 
    goes on in some of these parks.  Dot racing.  Mascots.  Bad music 
    (Fenway wisely implemented some between-innings recorded music, and 
    after a brief fling with a Best of the Monkeys tape that they've since 
    thrown out, they've really come on strong in this department).  That 
    extremely annoying Don Pardo game-show host they've got for a PA
    announcer in Oakland.  And much, much more...
    
    Plus, nothing that the stadium operators can do can match the Fenway
    neighborhood street environment (for me).  It's not under the control
    of the team (which is why it works, at least until the Red Sox can get
    ahold of enough corrupt city councilmen), but it's the best.  Same as 
    at Wrigley. 
    
    For me, the problems at Fenway begin and end with the food.  I bring my
    own or buy it outside, and that takes care of that.  A minor
    inconvenience for someone who goes often and isn't prone to getting
    ripped off.
                  
> The Sox don't do it because they don't have to.  The fans come
> anyway, why should they make the Park and the team more appealing?
 
    So why do they come?  Mostly because of the park's atmosphere for
    baseball viewing.  That's the whole point; the fans aren't coming 
    *in spite* of the park, they're coming because of it.  On the whole,
    it's a great park.  Even if they have to do nothing, Red Sox 
    management is all too aware of the attractiveness of Fenway Park.  
    The crowds confirm it every year.
                
    glenn
                                                        

    
    >    Haven't been to Wrigley, but I have been to Tiger and Fenway.  I'm
    >    leaving the historical significance  (and money incentives) out of
    >it.
    
    Get thee to Wrigley.  It is a real treat.  As far as atmosphere and
    closeness to the field I even had to give it an edge over Fenway.  And
    you can sing along with Harry in last of 7th.  I saw Cubs in
    doubleheader (just got lucky) in '84 against Pete Rose Reds.
    
    Highlight was watching player mgr Rose NOT run out a grounder to short
    (or rather loaf the run to first).
    
    b

Glenn -

If the Sox built a new park, the fans would come, wouldn't they?  Or is Fenway
the real attraction?

I like Fenway, but I'd go watch the Sox play somewhere else.   And so would the
vast majority of fans.  

And what's so great about the bleachers now anyway?  Ever since they did
assigned seating, and starting allowing season seats, the bleachers lost a lot.

They also increased in price dramatically.  $2.00 is what it was.  

JD

    I'd give Fenway the edge over Wrigley, although I did like
    the fact that you could buy draft beers on the sidewalk in
    front of the stadium at Wrigley. 8*)  Atmosphere at both places
    is great before, during, and after the game.
    
    Jimbo  

> If the Sox built a new park, the fans would come, wouldn't they?  Or is Fenway
> the real attraction?
> 
> I like Fenway, but I'd go watch the Sox play somewhere else.   And so would the
> vast majority of fans.  
    
    They'd go to a Camden Yards, certainly.  Would they go to see some of
    these mediocre teams play in a multipurpose artificial stadium out in
    the suburbs, or even worse, indoors as proposed by this ridiculous
    megaplex idea?  I wouldn't, not like I do now.  I suspect the vast 
    majority wouldn't, either.
    
> And what's so great about the bleachers now anyway?  Ever since they did
> assigned seating, and starting allowing season seats, the bleachers lost a lot.
> 
> They also increased in price dramatically.  $2.00 is what it was.  
    
    I've been before and after since 1976, which is the timeframe you're
    talking about the $2 seat.  Sure, it use to be better, but the basic
    reason it was (and was able to be) better is that it wasn't always as 
    crowded, not unless you're talking about 1975 or 1978.  It's the old
    Yogi Berra paradox, "Nobody goes there anymore; it's too crowded".  
    It's still good.  Most of the grandstand at $10 is an excellent deal,
    too.
    
    This last point is pretty much irrelevant, because you can rest assured
    that you're not going to walk up to a Camden Yards on the day of the
    game and buy good (or any) tickets.  Some things do change with the
    times; this is one of them that's not going to come back under any
    circumstances.
    
    glenn
    

    Sox fans come to Fenway because there's nothing better to do in town.
    Boston nightlife doesn't exactly compare to the NY theatre, the
    California sunshine, or the in-town concerts, because there aren't
    many. (you have to drive to Great Woods).  
    
    I appreciate what you say about the street life, but I have a serious
    problem with paying more for an event's parking than for the event.  I
    have a hard time justifying paying $10 for parking for a $7 ticket.
    T cost to Alewife what, $5.70? And then you have to watch the time or
    else you have to walk back or take a cab after the game to get there.
    
    RedSox don't have dot races, they have "Guess the attendance."  What's
    the difference?  Announcers don't bother me, but you can't say that
    Sherm Feller's voice isn't grating.  Mascots?  They're not there for
    the adult crowd, I don't see them being a problem if the kids enjoy
    them.   Bad Music?  Depends on your taste of music I suppose.  I don't
    see how listening to the organist play "Moon River" or "Hello Dolly"
    is significantly better.  Because it's on an organ?  I think if the
    "DJ" is creative enough, it can make it interesting.  The one in Shea
    is an example. I like when he plays "Doctor Doctor" when Gooden pitches
    or the "Hawaii 5-0" theme for Fernandez (from Hawaii).
    
    I think when I went to Camden, we got $12 seats to sit in the LF
    stands.  Forget what I paid to sit in Memorial Stadium, but I think
    it was comparable. If that's double, then fine, but it was about the
    same I paid to see a game in the Skydome, but much better seats...
    

�If the Sox built a new park, the fans would come, wouldn't they?  Or is Fenway
�the real attraction?
    
    Fenway is still a legitimate attraction.
    
�And what's so great about the bleachers now anyway?  Ever since they did
�assigned seating, and starting allowing season seats, the bleachers lost a lot.
    
    What did they lose?  Assigned seating is a plus.  They still provide a
    great view of the game and are reasonably priced.
    
�They also increased in price dramatically.  $2.00 is what it was.  
    
    What hasn't?

Glenn -

I still don't like reserved seating in the bleachers.  Get a bunch of fuddy duddy's
out there then.

I've been told since 1977 that Boston is the single most greatest sports town in
the world with the absolute most knowledgeable and greatest sports fans in the
world.  You mean they wouldn't watch a mediocre team?  I thought they were the
most loyal fans in the world also.  They wouldn't pack a dome like the Blue
jays fans do?

I think that for every diehard - or wannabe diehard - who claims they'd never
go see the Sox in  a dome or out in the burbs, there are 10 wannabe diehards
and casual fans that would flock to it.

JD

�I think if the
�    "DJ" is creative enough, it can make it interesting.  The one in Shea
�    is an example. I like when he plays "Doctor Doctor" when Gooden pitches
�    or the "Hawaii 5-0" theme for Fernandez (from Hawaii).
    
    Ooooo.  Bad music puns.  This rates right up there with Seattle's sound
    effects for foul balls (slide whistles and glass breaking).  Too bad I
    live so far from NY.  I'd get season tickets just for this.  

    > Sox fans come to Fenway because there's nothing better to do in town.
    
    That's a stretch.  Compared to New York, Chicago, and California, sure, 
    but the other 20-odd MLB cities too?  People enjoy Fenway Park on its
    own merits.
    
    > I appreciate what you say about the street life, but I have a serious
    > problem with paying more for an event's parking than for the event.  I
    > have a hard time justifying paying $10 for parking for a $7 ticket.
    
    There's free parking at metered spots all over the Fenway area after 
    6 PM for night and Sunday games, $0.25/hr parking at metered spots on 
    Beacon St. in Brookline less than a quarter-mile from the park for 
    afternoon games.  I *much* prefer it this way to even paying $5.00 for 
    parking in a lot as at other parks, and then having to wait to get out.  
    The Baltimore situation is a huge mess, maybe worse even than what it 
    was up on 33rd St. (talk about inaccessible, Memorial was that).  
    Granted, you have to have a very small amount of familiarity with where 
    the park is to poke around the neighborhood for a parking space.
    
    > Bad Music?  Depends on your taste of music I suppose.  I don't
    > see how listening to the organist play "Moon River" or "Hello Dolly"
    > is significantly better.  Because it's on an organ?  I think if the
    > "DJ" is creative enough, it can make it interesting.
    
    Have you gone lately?  I've heard a wide variety of stuff this year 
    from Spin Doctors, Bob Marley (Buffalo Soldier!), Van Morrison (off
    the top of my head) and a lot more, and they mix it up.  They've got
    somebody who knows what they're doing picking the music now, after 
    John Harrington or whoever did it personally and screwed up badly.  
    They've still got the organ and use it, but your impression here is 
    old news. 
    
    > Announcers don't bother me, but you can't say that
    > Sherm Feller's voice isn't grating.
                                         
    Sherm's a classic.  He's not a Johnny Most, he has a great baritone 
    voice, but perhaps seems to be losing his edge a bit.  In Chicago 
    they put a guy like that in front of a mike for 9 innings and call him
    broadcasting legend Harry Caray. 
    
    > I think when I went to Camden, we got $12 seats to sit in the LF
    > stands.  Forget what I paid to sit in Memorial Stadium, but I think
    > it was comparable. If that's double, then fine, but it was about the
    > same I paid to see a game in the Skydome, but much better seats...
    
    Memorial outfield was still only $6 a couple of years ago, cheaper for
    kids (discounts disappear with the demand).  No argument with Skydome; 
    that place is the biggest ripoff in the history of sport, and no one 
    will ever convince me that we need or want one of those (Toronto had 
    to sell the damn thing because it went into bankruptcy, for one thing--
    how come you don't ever hear about things like that from these megaplex
    financiers and politicians?), Hardrock Cafe or no...
    
    glenn
    

                 
> I still don't like reserved seating in the bleachers.  Get a bunch of fuddy duddy's
> out there then.
    
    Gee, thanks.  I've been through all the stages: the general admission
    day-of-game, the soldout every game so you have to scalp them, finally
    breaking down and buying the season ticket.  I haven't changed.  ;-)
    
> I think that for every diehard - or wannabe diehard - who claims they'd never
> go see the Sox in  a dome or out in the burbs, there are 10 wannabe diehards
> and casual fans that would flock to it.
    
    Maybe they would.  That'd be their choice.  I still don't think that's
    goodness from a ballpark.  We're discussing the relative merits of
    ballparks.  Is this your preference?
    
    glenn
    

    	Hey WaltE, you forgot the best things about Camden Yards...
    
    	They bring the beer to your seats and it's close to The Block!
    
    				/Don

                        
    >	They bring the beer to your seats and it's close to The Block!
    
    He mentioned the first one.  That is a plus.  In Massachusetts I think
    it's some kind of state law that you can't sell beer in the stands.
    
    At Memorial Stadium there was one beer vendor who was an absolute riot
    in his banter with the fans (kinda looked like a bigger Harry
    Anderson, with a better wit), and he was incredible in his ability to
    move up and down those steep upper-deck stairs with a heavy tray in
    tow, empty it in a flash without ever losing track of the money, and 
    be down and back with more.  The guy would shame people in front of a 
    hundred on-lookers into coughing up an adequate tip (and he was well
    worth it).  He was probably making a fortune at that job, and still is 
    if he moved over to Camden...
    
    glenn
      

Speaking of music, John Kiely did this morning. The only man to 
play for the Sox, Bruins, and Celtics...

Re: Parking. Bingo on the meters. With the exception of this 
years Patriots Day game, I haven't paid for parking in 4 years, 
roughly 80 games.
The metered spots are there, you just have to look for em and get 
there early.

daryll

    re: Bad Music puns... wouldn't expect a rugby guy to understand.  Like
    I said, you can listen Dolly Parton if you want...
    
    
  >  That's a stretch.  Compared to New York, Chicago, and California, sure, 
  >  but the other 20-odd MLB cities too?  People enjoy Fenway Park on its
  >  own merits.
            
    Well, Baltimore has the Harbor. Kansas City was a 1-day work trip, 
    so I can't comment on that. Miami has the beach.  Atlanta, Peachtree
    Street, the Underground, and the mansions.  I can't really comment on
    others, haven't been there personally.  They also have smaller markets.
    
    
>    There's free parking at metered spots all over the Fenway area after 
>    6 PM for night and Sunday games, $0.25/hr parking at metered spots on 
>    Beacon St. in Brookline less than a quarter-mile from the park for 
>    afternoon games.  I *much* prefer it this way to even paying $5.00 for 
>    parking in a lot as at other parks, and then having to wait to get out.  
>    The Baltimore situation is a huge mess, maybe worse even than what it 
>    was up on 33rd St. (talk about inaccessible, Memorial was that).  
>    Granted, you have to have a very small amount of familiarity with where 
>    the park is to poke around the neighborhood for a parking space.
    
     Well, since I work until around 6, by the time I get down there, those
     spots are gone, so if I want to park on the street, it means parking
     near the BU bridge.  At stadium lot, I'd pay the $5 for a car load to
     make the walk bearable.  And Camden Yards, it's walking distance to
     the Harbor, so traffic wasn't a problem for us.  I didn't have a
     parking problem at Memorial when I was there, I just carried a map and
     found a side street with a meter.  Maybe it was timing for when I got
     there.  The T is a more appealing option for parking if than ran more
     trains before/after the game.
    
>    Have you gone lately?  I've heard a wide variety of stuff this year 
>    from Spin Doctors, Bob Marley (Buffalo Soldier!), Van Morrison (off
>    the top of my head) and a lot more, and they mix it up.  They've got
>    somebody who knows what they're doing picking the music now, after 
>    John Harrington or whoever did it personally and screwed up badly.  
>    They've still got the organ and use it, but your impression here is 
>    old news. 
    
     So what makes this different from other ballparks that have DJ's?
     Why is Fenway better?
     
>    Sherm's a classic.  He's not a Johnny Most, he has a great baritone 
>    voice, but perhaps seems to be losing his edge a bit.  In Chicago 
>    they put a guy like that in front of a mike for 9 innings and call him
>    broadcasting legend Harry Caray. 
    
     I'm not a Harry/Skip/Chip Caray fan either.   But announcers aren't
    high on my list of what constitutes a park's atmosphere.
    
  >           -< I have a JPEG of Camden Yards from opening day last year >-
    I think /Don's got a chubby from Camden Yards and the block last year.
    We had a miscommunication and so, didn't make the second half or our
    excursion.  Settled for Hooters and the Baja Beach Club.

    
     > I didn't have a
     > parking problem at Memorial when I was there, I just carried a map and
     > found a side street with a meter.
    
    Okay, we're basically talking about the same thing here, except that
    Soldiers Field/Storrow Drive inbound (almost never trafficked after 
    6 PM) from the west, Rt. 2, *moves* and bang, you're there.  BU exit, 
    right onto Comm Ave, first left towards Beacon, left onto Beacon, 
    and there's always some diagonal parking on Beacon with a short walk 
    to the park (some nights longer than others), well inside the BU 
    bridge.  If you're serious about having trouble parking down there 
    for night games, give it a shot.  The cattle drives around the T 
    stations after games are unacceptable; I don't care what our civic 
    leaders say.
    
>     So what makes this different from other ballparks that have DJ's?
>     Why is Fenway better?
    
    I don't know; you guys are the music critics. ;-)  What I've heard this
    year is much better than what I've heard in the past in Oakland, San 
    Francisco, Baltimore, and Pittsburgh on numerous occasions.  That might
    have changed, or could change again tomorrow.  Who knows.
    
    glenn
    

�    Well, Baltimore has the Harbor. 
    
    And Boston has Quincy Market and a big nightclub scene.
    
�The T is a more appealing option for parking if than ran more
�     trains before/after the game.
    
    I haven't had a problem with the T.  I usually park at Riverside and T
    in.  I avoid the crowds at the T stations after the game by hanging out
    at places like the Boston Beer Works.

> And Boston has Quincy Market and a big nightclub scene.

Fascinating article in the Globe last week on Boston having very early
closing times when compared to other cities.

The Crazy Met

�Fascinating article in the Globe last week on Boston having very early
�closing times when compared to other cities.
    
    From what I remember they are comparable to closing times in D.C.,
    Arlington, VA, Baltimore, Dallas, Austin.

If I still have the article I'll double check, but I seem to recall it
was earlier than most places. fwiw I never think of Arlington, VA when
I think of towns with late night options.

The Crazy Met

�If I still have the article I'll double check, but I seem to recall it
�was earlier than most places. fwiw I never think of Arlington, VA when
�I think of towns with late night options.
    
    I'll give you it's earlier than Albany, NYC, Las Vegas, but then again,
    who isn't.  
    
    You obviously haven't been to Old Town in Arlington, then.  There's
    some good partying in the D.C. 'burbs.

    > You obviously haven't been to Old Town in Arlington, then.  There's
    > some good partying in the D.C. 'burbs.
    
    Alexandria, no?  My dad's got a second apartment down there and I can
    confirm that there's plenty to do down there at night.  But then again, 
    I've never had a problem with that in Boston, either.
    
    I guess I just don't understand this fascination with crapping all over
    the place you've chosen to work and build a life if it doesn't happen
    to be home.  I'm not a native New Englander and I've lived in many
    other places around the country and with rare exception I've taken
    plenty of good from them all...
    
    glenn
    

    
    Now Glenn, you've just set yourself up for the requisite, it's not
    where I want to live, but it's where my job is....bs

    I don't get to the park much but I recall parking at longwood and
    taking tee from there.  parking "was" free.

�    Alexandria, no?  
    
    You're right.  Old Town is in Alexandria.  Arlington has some good
    spots too.

Mac -

Boston's night life ain't too great.  THe club scene ain't too great.  Even Seattle's
was light years ahead of it.  Austin's, from the few times I've been there, blows
Boston away.

Boston has some good clubs - especially, IMO - the smaller neighborhood clubs
that have live entertainment.  But its a sleepy town.  

jd

    	I agree JD, Boston ain't been the same since they closed down the
    Combat Zone.
    
    				/Don

    
    >	I agree JD, Boston ain't been the same since they closed down the
    > Combat Zone.
    
    ...and the fuddy-duds moved in...
    
    glenn
    

    	That's true Glenn.  Even though Boston and New England are more
    puritanical than most of the rest of the country, BeanTown used to have
    a pretty good nightlife in the early 70's.
    
    				/Don

    
     >   I agree JD, Boston ain't been the same since they closed down the
        > Combat Zone.
     
    Some would say Sculley Square.

    What's Sculley Square?  Is that something old people like Lee and /Don
    know about?
    

    Charlie boarded MTA at Sculley Square Station
    
    It wasn't quite before my time but the goings on were.  By today's
    standards it was good clean fun.
    
    b

    Scollay Sq was generally located where Government Center is now
    (area near Camb St near present Gov't Ctr and Bowdoin Blue line stops).
    
    Was a beehive of bars and "entertainment centers". Most famous of all
    joints was the Old Howard, where luminaries such as Gypsy Rosew Lee
    and forebears took it of, took it all off.
    
    Da Slash refers to the general Kenmore Sq, Beacon, Comm Ave area in\the
    early 70's where nightlife was GREEEAAST. Familiar names like
    Copperfields, the Cask had great dance clubs like KKKKaty's, Lucifers,
    Lucy in the Sky, The Garage(present Paradise), Great Scotts, Fathers
    Too, and Daisy's down the strasse. Those were the times.....
    
    MikeL
    

    Ahh yes... Lucy in the Sky... Luciers... Brothers 4... Daisy
    Buchcanons... The fun places in Boston in the 70's where you could go
    and "meet" the college girls.......
    
    REK

    I have to agree Boston's nightlife leaves a little to be desired. Very
    few good neighborhood bars compared to Chicago, anyway. Chi-town closes
    at 2 am or 4 am depending on how much you bribed the liquor comiish
    when you got your license. It's great to see the crowds pile out of the
    2 am places and into the 4 am places at 2:15 or so. 
    
    Another problem with Boston late at night is a profound lack of late
    night food joints... I'd kill for a great 3 dollar mega Burrito or a 99
    cent Chicago dog and fries place.   Nemo's and Buzzy's just don't float
    my boat.
    
    Third problem is the T shutting down at 1. Ugh.
    
    Following another old thread - reserved bleacher seats. The GA seating
    in Wrigley has the major advantage of that if you have 4 tickets and a
    5th friend rolls into town, you can all still sit together. But get to
    Murphy's at 10 AM and be in line by noon for the 1:05 start.
    
    Murph
    

Did Griff Jr. get his record last night?

�Did Griff Jr. get his record last night?
    
    Nope.  He went 2-4 with a single and a double (the double was off the
    wall).  Since the Ms were winning, he didn't have a chance for another
    try in the ninth.

>    
>    Nope.  He went 2-4 with a single and a double (the double was off the
>    wall).  Since the Ms were winning, he didn't have a chance for another
>    try in the ninth.


Too bad.  It would have been neat to see it.....

Oh well.

fw

    He sent the double to the wall, and his during his last at bat the
    pitcher hung a curve.
    
    I was already saying; "SEE-YUH", but little Grif popped it up...
    
    He got his pitch.  But hey, 7 in a row is quite a feat.  The guy is
    playing ball for a living, coached by his dad, and batted .500 for
    the day.
    
    I still has to go down as a damn good night!

    The legend in his own mind, Reggie Jackson gets inducted into the HoF
    Sunday.
    
    IMHO, he's the most overrated player since Ralph Kiner to get into the
    HoF.  Sure, he hit 500+ HR's, but he also led the AL in errors for 5
    straight years, holds the NL record for most career strikeouts(more
    strikeouts than hits) at 2600+, and batted a truly mediocre .262
    lifetime.
    
    JaKe
    

�and batted a truly mediocre .262
�    lifetime.
    
    Lowest career BA of all outfielders inducted into the Hall of Fame. 
    You have to admit he did bring his game up a notch when it counted. 
    For example, his World Series BA is almost 100 points higher than his
    career BA (.357).  Sounds like your kind of guy, Jake.
    
    Big trade in the AL just before the deadline.  The Oakland A's Rickey
    Henderson to the Toronto Blue Jays for a minor league pitcher and a
    PTBNL.  Rickey has a no trade clause in his contract and had to approve
    the trade.  Apparantly the Jays agreed to grant him full free agency
    next year instead of going through arbitration in order to obtain his
    approval for the trade.  Rickey "at $12 mill over 3 years I'm not
    appreciated" Henderson is once again having a big season in the last
    year of his contract.

    1.  From the distant past.  When Dale Long originally set the record
    this was a big, big deal with heavy national coverage and talked about
    by non sports fans (like my mother).
    	
    	The Griffey "watch" is casual and Who Knew... that Mattingly had
    	tied the record?
    
    	I mention this only to point out differences in emphasis on sports
    	events these days - coverage has to be sold to certain network
    	producers before action occurs.
    
    2.  What is HOF if "Famed" ball players are not there .  Who is more
    	famous/notorious than Mr. Articulate.  And as has been noted the
    	post-season is the thing today.  I recall another note saying that
    	the RedSox accomplished nothing in Pennant and Division wins if
    	they didn't win WS and Reggie is undeniably the premier post season
    	player of all time (besides I had money on '77 series).
    
    b

    
>    IMHO, he's the most overrated player since Ralph Kiner to get into the
>    HoF.
    
    That's pretty rough coming from a Pittsburgh guy, JaKe.  Kiner's one of
    these players that's almost underrated now because so many people busted 
    on him for his defense after he made the Hall, leaving the casual fan
    with the false impression that he was some kind of a .220-hitting
    circus act who could do nothing but hit home runs and strike out, like 
    Dave Kingman.  Offensively Kiner was one of the greatest of his era for 
    a solid decade before back injuries forced him out of the game 
    prematurely and deprived him of 500+ homers and a number of other 
    accomplishments.  Leading the NL year after year in HRs and RBIs is no 
    small accomplishment...
    
    I can't call a guy who hits 500+ home runs and maintains at least a 
    .260 BA overrated.  Batting average is what's overrated, as a matter 
    of fact.
    
    glenn
    

    	You know, much like a certain Ex-Noter used to rag on THE GREATEST
    WINNER OF ALL TIME, certain folks will try to use statistics to measure
    MISTER OCTOBER.  Well much like with William Felton Russell, GeekyStats
    don't measure what Reggie was to the months of September and October. 
    He belongs in the Hall Of Fame.  Period.
    
    				/Don

I was never a Yankee fan, in fact, like all true Red Sox fans I've a 
healthy hatred for those girly-men in pinstripes 8^).

But seriously, there is a list of Yankees that I deeply respect as a fan
of baseball.  One of those Yankees on my short list is Reggie Jackson.

Reggie Jackson was a player who, at any moment, could break a game wide
open.

The three homers in the Series game in 1977 were an accomplishment of
the highest caliber, at the time only having been done previously by the
Immortal Babe.

500+ homers is almost a ticket itself to the shrine in Cooperstown, but
Reggie was much more than that.....


'Saw

    
    	Anybody catch ole Nolan Ryan whup up on Robin Ventura?  He
    	taught that young whippah snappah about charging the mound!
    
    Claybone

>                               -< uppercut city >-
>
>    
>    	Anybody catch ole Nolan Ryan whup up on Robin Ventura?  He
>    	taught that young whippah snappah about charging the mound!
    

"C'mon baby, finish what ya started...."


Okay, Clabyone, fess up, what happened??????

Ryan threw a pitch about 3' outside and hit Robin Ventura. 

Ventura then charged the mound and Nolan put his haid in a lock and bagan 
whopping up on Robins haid like it was a melon. Ventura finally broke free 
when the benches cleared. 

Ventura and the Sox manager were thrown out of the game. Nolan wasn't ????

Jeff

�Ryan threw a pitch about 3' outside and hit Robin Ventura. 
    
    What the hail was Ventura doing 3' outside?

Nolan threw right at his right side.

    Someone better give those Coloradoans a lesson in baseball now that
    they have a major league team.
    
    If it hit him, then it must have been an INside pitch, or he was in the
    on deck circle (which is more than 3' away).

    
    > Ryan said after the game that the
    > last time someone charged the mound he was passive and paid the price.
    > He said he knows now that when these guys charge the mound they intend 
    > to hurt him. 
    
    That "last" and only guy to charge Ryan was Dave Winfield, who
    understandably even Nolan Ryan might not want to mess with.  But
    Ventura is going to have to live with this one for a long time.
    Starts a fight and gets solidly whupped by a 46-year-old man!  More
    power to ya, Nolie...
    
    glenn
     

    
    	Was that good enuff 'Saw?  :*)
    
    	You'll have to forgive Riggo, Mac.  To him, batting left handed
    	is batting on the outside of the plate.
    
    	The last punch by Ryan to Rockin' Robin's teef was a good shot.
    	The punches to the top of his haid looked like Ryan was giving
    	him a noogie.
    
    Claybone

Baseball players are not known for their pugilistic efforts, but I'd
not want to go a round with Fielder, Kruk, Winfield or the like.

More power to Nolan for takin' the guy out.  I can picture him whopping
the guy's haid like a melon and then going to get some Advil....8^)


'Saw

    
    I heard the report this morning, and thought, since it's Ryan, he'll be
    made out to be a hero.  Imagine if Clemens had done the same thing. 
    People would be all over his case.

Well Clemens would deserve having people all over his case, right MikeC?

The Crazy Met

    	Looks like Ryan might have a hokey career after he hangs up the
    baseball spikes.  Oh yeah, they don't allow bench clearing brawls in
    hokey, only baseball.
    
    				/Don

    
    Hahahahahahah.
    
    -TH

 Clemens is a Bob Barker wannabe. he wouldn't hurt a fly.....

 ;^)

 mike

    Aw, you hokey fans are just jealous because this was a real,
    spontaneous fight that wasn't cleared by the league office beforehand.  
    Coming after Nolan Ryan is like picking a fight with Wayne Gretzky; it 
    just wouldn't happen in the NHL...
    
    glenn
    

    I saw the replay on espn last night after breaking down on 495 and
    getting my wife to come down from Nashua to pick me up - upside was I
    saw the "fight"  
    
    1.  Ventura should have got out of the way - it was just inside a bit
    
    2.  Is Ryan stupid or looking for early retirement?  Hitting a guy on
    the head with his pitching hand?
    
    3.  So Ventura is getting poked on the top of the head.  He then twists 
    	his head up so he can get hit in the face.
    
    4.  Robin V decides to charge, runs out, stops like he saying "what in
    	'ell am I doing out with Nolan Ryan; I can't punch him he's almost as
    	old as breen??? - Ryan has no problem mixing with the youngster whose
    	probably his son's age
    
    b

    I really didn't expect TCM to stoop to trying to bring up something
    totally irrelevant in order to take the heat of his beloved Mets.
    
    I hear Foreman's next fight is going to be against Ryan.  It'll be the
    heavyweight bout of the aged.

Correct me, last I knew Clemens pitched for a team in the AL, right? :-)
Anyways I didn't start the Clemens thread. Then again why should I be surprised
that Mac is at it again.

The Crazy Met

	SDUC ALERT!!!!

    
    The thing that scares me about Toronto is that in the last few starts, Stew
    seems to have found whatever it was he had 3-4 years ago.  If Morris
    does the same thing, the Jays shouldn't have much trouble.
    
    brews

	RE: Nolan

	Venturra was just suspended by the legue for 2 days.

	Nolan got nothing.  Classic superstar call.  There is no room
	
	for it in pro sports, officiating(sp) must be unbiased.

	BTW Gretsky would not bang a stick on someones head on purpose,

	As Nolan threw at someones head (career ending injury, don't blame

	Venturra for being upset, even though my sister could whup him in a 
	fight)

	RE: Jays

	Stuart went 8 innings of 5 hit ball last night.

	Morris has won three in a row and seems to be returning to form.

	Most sports columnist love to bash the Jays for no apperent reason.

	Their staff is O.K. (Morris, Stuart, Guzman, Heitken (15 wins), and 

	Lieter), and closer is GREAT (Ward).  Even though the Jays don't

	seem to move from fisrt, I think the one who gets HOT in late Sept. 

	will win.

	Nadeem
 

�	As Nolan threw at someones head (career ending injury, don't blame
�
�	Venturra for being upset, even though my sister could whup him in a 
�	fight)
    
    Ventura was hit in the ribs with a pitch he should have been able to
    get away from.
    
�	Morris has won three in a row and seems to be returning to form.
    
    Or are the Jays scoring runs for him again?

    Ryan through a pitch in the back (ribs), not at the head, it was a
    message pitch, but not an attempt to injure.  Ventura shouldn't
    have rushed the mound.  I don't think Ryan deserved to miss a start
    for that.
    
    If the league presidents took more action against the person storming
    the mound, this would go away sooner.  Or if the pitcher head hunts
    (which wasn't the case here).
    

    I have a great idea for the batters to "get back" at pitchers
    who hit them on porpose.. Nexted time up take a really hard swing and
    let the bat "slip" out of their hands towards the pitcher.....
    Whoops... need some pine tar...
    
    message to pitcher.....
    
    REK

In the old days, real men with no batting helmets would stand in
there and the pitchers would pitch inside, and it was like two WWI flying
aces -- no punches pulled but a lot of respect.

Nowadays, you've got all these weinies who rush the mound.  I say, hey,
get some gonads.



This is changing the subject, but did anyone else see the videotape of
the hurler from Seattle who took the line drive right in his haid?

Whoa man!


'Saw

>In the old days, real men with no batting helmets would stand in
>there and the pitchers would pitch inside, and it was like two WWI flying
>aces -- no punches pulled but a lot of respect.

>Nowadays, you've got all these weinies who rush the mound.  I say, hey,
>get some gonads.

Absitively. It's true in all sports - particularly football and hockey. 
Put these super-plasticized-crash-dummy helmets on and the game changes,
cheap shots in both directions, whining, lack of respect, lack of sports-
manship, etc. Going for the head becomes standard practice, respect 
disappears.

I don't even think it works in terms of avoiding injuries - so many more
cheap shots get taken that it all evens out.

josh

re: .241

what complete and utter balderdash! forget about the number of injuries for
the moment and consider the severity of the injuries. Injuries to the head
can kill and paralyze; protecting the head minimizes - though does not
eliminate - life threatening and disabling injuries.

The Crazy Met

	One of the announcers mentioned last night that Clemens threw an
	inside pitch to <mumble>, the Yankees' catcher, either earlier
	this year or last year.  The Yankee caught it with his bare hand
	and fired it back to Roger.

	My question is this...was he awarded first, hit-by-pitch, or was 
	the pitch ruled a ball.  My guess is that it would depend on whether
	he was defending himself or reached out to snag the ball.


	billl

Awarded 1st base. actually ball hit him, he then caught the ball and threw
it back.

The Crazy Met

Last man not required to wear a helmet at the plate?

    Don Zimmer?
    Yogi Berra?
    
    REK

                      <<< Note 7.248 by NAC::G_WAUGAMAN >>>
                    -< Bob Montgomery, and it shows... ;-) >-

    

	Do you think that the DH rule makes it easier to go 'a head huntin'.

	Let's face it, if you have to stand at the plate yourself, you might 

	not want to go at someones head.

	Nadeem

If the DH really made a difference than the NL should have significantly
fewer incidents and I'm not sure that is really the case.

The Crazy Met

I hate the DH, but I have to agree with TCM.

'Saw

    
    Re .251
    
    I don't have the numbers in front of me, but the NL _has_ had
    measurably smaller HBP numbers since the DH was adopted in the AL.
    The AL this year is reaching historic levels - ~50 HBP/100 games,
    which is bad as things have been this century.
    
    Joe

    
    And now the numbers...
    
    Since the DH came into being, the AL has had HBP rates about 25%
    higher than the NL.
    
    HBP rates (per 100 games), 1984-1993:
    
    NL - 29, 32, 36, 38, 33, 36, 38, 41, 50
    AL - 37, 44, 43, 49, 43, 45, 37, 52, 56
    
    Highs since 1916 - NL 50, AL 56
    
    Joe

    But both have been gradually increasing...
    

>what complete and utter balderdash! forget about the number of injuries for
>the moment and consider the severity of the injuries. Injuries to the head
>can kill and paralyze; protecting the head minimizes - though does not
>eliminate - life threatening and disabling injuries.

Frankly, I do not believe that the number or severity of the injuries is the
issue - we are talking about professional athletes making big bucks, they're
paid for whatever risks they take. I never advocated banning helmets in
Little League or college sport.

BUT...it seems to me that helmets (and the DH rule) make it easier and more 
acceptable to throw at someone's head - or spear in football, or get yer 
sticks up in hockey - and that *definitely* affects how the game is played in
playgrounds and schools. Hockey in particular is MUCH more violent now than 
before the helmet (I'm in Canada, lots of serious injuries every year). Foot-
ball is also rediculous - every tackle is with the head. You almost never see
a solid shoulder tackle any more. They sure didn't tackle that way in the days
of the leather helmet. Nowadays you can see kids spearing each other in the park.
Their heads don't break but their necks do.

Kids imitate the big boys. It is essential to keep a reasonable level of sports-
manship and clean play alive in the big leagues. Helmets do not contribute to
that goal. 

I say ban 'em.

josh

    I question Bob Montgomery as the "last person" who did not wear a
    batting helmut. He wore a modified baseball cap with a liner inside.
    It was the same as a batting helmut.....
    
    REK

    
    re .256
    
    	You ever been hit with a baseball?
    
    Claybone

    The hockey and football arguments around increased violence due to 
    helmets don't hold with baseball.  In those sports the close proximity 
    of the defender to his opponent makes the presence of the helmet critical
    (the helmet can even become the weapon itself).  That's not a big deal
    in baseball.  If the presence of the helmet makes the hitter slightly
    more confident at the plate, so be it.  It's still a fact that the
    career-ending baseball head injury has almost completely disappeared
    from the game (and the game hasn't changed so much that it was ever
    the case that a severely dehabilitating head injury due to a pitched
    ball wasn't a legitimate fear-- they occurred in any era, including in 
    1920 with Ray Chapman's death).  Even if helmets are the cause of
    batters digging in, getting hit more often, and causing a few more 
    fights, it's a small price to pay.
    
    glenn
     

I was watching the Sox game saturday vs. the Jays on CBC (much better coverage
than the american networks :-)

and I don't blame the hitters for digging into the box 2 inches from the plate
if the umps are  going to give the 6 inches outside the plate strike like that
guy was doing. You'd have to have oliver miller arms to reach that ball without
being on top of the plate....

Of course other umps have been known to have a strike zone the size of a pea.

I can't believe the Sox couldn't do anything with Hentgen. He was wild with the
curve all day and could only put the heat over the plate...I did get a chuckle
out of Pena trying to bunt his way on in the 3rd inning....

Metz

    
    Man, I'm gonna apply for a job with the Boston Herald as haidline
    writer. Thumbing through the sports in da library, I happen upon,
    "Cone Heads Victory" (Royals win!).
    
    Lessee,
    Pirates jollygreen Giants
    Jays stonewall Yankees
    Red Sox cleave Indians
    
    I gotsta be qualified.
    
    MikeL
    
    

    After lasts night KC- Minny David Cone spoke to reporters about how
    he was booed last night when he was on the mound. Cone lite into the
    fans about not supporting KC and all that jazz.... After Cone
    bad-mouthed the fans some one told him that the game he just played
    it and was complaining about was played in...
    

    Minnesota..... He apologized right after being told......

    REK

    
    Figures. Must be a_ex_Mutt
    
    MikeL
    

    Can someone please decode .262 for me?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Mark.

    Mark,
    I translated .262 to mean that Cone had been booed off the field
    and was complaining, post-game that the fans were not giving him and
    the team the support he felt they deserved. I guess he thought, as a
    Royal, he was playing in KC and was getting booed at home... He
    musta lost a synapse cuz the announcer correctly pointed out that he
    was playing *in Minnesota*, thus *on the road*.
    
    MikeL
     

Funny, I decoded it as saying that Jim McMahon had gotten traded...

	If the Yankee vs. Sox series is a prelude to the
	post season, the yanks might want to lose it
	on purpose.

	Nadeem (Jays up by 2.5)

    Abbott of the NYY threw a no hitter today against Cleveland...
    
    REK

    It never ceases to amaze me how professional athletes like to insult
    our intelligence. Last night Dave Winfield becomes the 19th player in
    basbeall history to get 3000 hits. He does so in a meaningless gamme
    between the 6th place Twins and 7th place A's but only wants to talk
    about the hit as being important because it would help the team win.
    
    C'mon Dave,be serious.
    
    BTW here are the other 18 if you're interested:
    
    Cap Anson
    Nap Lajoie
    Eddie Collins
    Honus Wagner
    Ty Cobb
    Tris Speaker
    Paul Waner
    Stan Musial
    
    Henry Aaron
    Willie Mays
    Roberto Clemente
    
    Pete Rose
    
    Al Kaline
    Lou Brock
    Carl Yazstremeski
    Rod Carew
    
    Robin Yount
    George Brett
    Dave Winfield

Dave should now hang it up after this season before "Mays" 
disease fully sets in.

daryll

    He's hitting .260 with 21 HR's... that ain't so bad... better than
    guys like Dawson...
    

    
    Interesting question on the radio on the way in---what uniform will
    Winfield wear when he gets in the HoF?  Given the mess in NY, I'd be
    surprised to see him in pinstripes.
    
brews
    

who has he played for?

San Diego
N.Y.
Toronto
Minnesota


Do you ever think we'll see the day when a HOf player has played for so many
teams that he can't decide on a uniform to enshrine?

I wouldn't be surprised with the way rent a players are being used via free
agency...

Metz
 

    	Winfield also played for the Angels.
    
    				/Don

    He'll go in wif a Blue Jay uni. That's the only one he got a Ring
    in, n'est-ce-pas?
    
    MikeL
    

    
    Yabbut naww, I think ol George Steinbrenner's gonna lay some cash on
    him and that's how another yankmee pinstripe gets in da Hall.
    
    I remain,
    havin a premonition
    Kev
    

    just from the list of 3000 hitters (notice all not on list let by
    Ted,Babe,George Sisler,Lou...,Rogers) look at all the teams many of
    them played for.
    
    Actually Hornsby played for so many I wonder what uniform his hof
    picture shows.
    
    So when ball players were chattels the owners moved them when the price
    was right now players go to new owners for same reason.
    
    All in all free agency has helped the game mainly by avoiding another
    1936-1964 yankees hold on a league and to a certain extent avoiding the
    trapping of major league talent at minor league level.
    
    

         <<< Note 7.271 by ROYALT::ASHE "Rock Babes Are People Too" >>>

>    He's hitting .260 with 21 HR's... that ain't so bad... better than
>    guys like Dawson...
 
Other players have put up similar numbers and were deemed to have 
hung around too long....

daryll   

    re: Kev
    
    Hell will freeze over before Steinbrenner lays cash to get Winfield
    into the Hall in a Yankee uniform.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    I'd say Toronto or San Diego, although he is from Minnesota...
    

Article 9890 of clari.local.texas:
From: [email protected] (UPI)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.baseball,clari.local.texas,clari.sports.top
Subject: Ryan's career ends early
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 12:51:54 EDT
Location: texas
Lines: 57

	SEATTLE (UPI) -- After 27 years and 5,714 strikeouts, the task of
saying goodbye to Nolan Ryan was left a scoreboard operator.
	As the remaining members of what had been a crowd of more than 40,000
filed out of the Kingdome Wednesday night, they saw a message on the big
board which spoke for millions of fans who have followed Ryan's
legendary creer.
	``Nolan, Thanks For The Memories.''
	The last of those memories was not a happy one. Ryan's 27-year major
league career came to a premature end Wednesday evening when he tore a
ligament in his right elbow throwing a first-inning pitch to Dave
Magadan.
	Ryan, who played the final five years of his career with the Texas
Rangers, said prior to the season this one would be his last. It was a
disappointing year from start to finish -- one in which he made three
trips to the disabled list and won only five games to run his career
total to 324.
	``All this year has done is confirm what I felt like was the case,''
Ryan said in a news conference after the Mariners had finished off a 7-4
victory. ``It's taken so much for me to compete now, my time and effort
and sacrifices I have to make.
	``Prolonging it one more year isn't going to accomplish anything. The
time has come for me to go on into something else. My body is telling me
that every day.''
	Ryan's career came to an end with him holding more than 50 major
league records, chief among them being for strikeouts and no-hitters.
His 5,714 strikeouts are 1,578 more than second-place Steve Carlton.
Ryan's seven no-hitters are three more than anyone else has ever thrown.
	Among big-time team professional sports in the United States, Ryan's
27-year tenure is the second longest in history. Only Gordie Howe played
longer -- toiling 32 years in the National Hockey League and World Hockey
Association.
	George Blanda played pro football for 26 years, as did baseball's
Tommy John and Deacon McGuire (a catcher whose career began in the
1800s). The NBA longevity record of 20 seasons belongs to Kareem Abdul-
Jabbar.
	The painful way Ryan exited the game made his departure difficult for
those who saw it. Ryan walked the bases loaded, gave up a grand slam
homer to Dann Howitt and then threw the fateful pitch to Magadan.
	``This whole year has been a nightmare,'' Ryan said. ``All I've dealt
with all year is frustration. Not only the physical aspect of it, but
from the standpoint of not being able to help the club in a pennant race
when they really needed it.''
	Ryan worked only 66 1-3 innings this year, his fewest ever in a full
season.
	As Ryan left Seattle for Texas, his immediate future was cloudy. He
said he hoped to be able to avoid surgery on the elbow since he would no
longer be throwing fast balls.
	For the long term, Ryan has a contract to work in the Rangers' front
office. But the exact capacity has never been specified. Ryan has also
contemplated running for state agriculture commissioner and has not
ruled out a try at political office in the future.
	His career numbers will eventually be listed in the Hall of Fame, but
for those who saw his final pitch, the last memory of Ryan will be a
painful one.
	``It's a shame for a great pitcher to have his career end that way,''
said Seattle manager Lou Piniella. ``He has nothing but Cooperstown
ahead of him.''

    The new stadium in Texas has it's official name: The Ballpark in
    Arlington.
    
    So, is Minnie Minoso (a real live hoochee coocher...)   playing this
    week or not?
    

    Nope, Minni M got shot down by the players....
    
    REK

    	White Sox over Blue Jays in 7.
    
    				/Don

    White Sox in 5.
    
    NAZZ

    Sox in 6.
    
    JaKe
    

    Jays in 6

    
    Yabbut,
    
    Oooo Ooo Oooo!
    
    After 6 innings, da Jays are leading by 2.  Score is 5-3.
    
    For a guy who don't really care for bazeball, thi shas been a pretty
    neat game.  0-0, sox score a couple, next time J's match.  Nexted
    inning sox look good, jays do better.
    
    I remain, 
    a guy who if I had any $$$, I'd go with the Sox
    Kev
    

     Is it snowing there yet?

    Jays win game 1. 
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Nice managing, Lamont!  Why doncha leave McDowell in FOREVER!?!?!?!
    
    Black Jack obviously didn't have it, but you you let him get assaulted
    until the game was out of reach.  What are you saving Belcher for,
    1994?!?!?!?!
    
    McDowell gave up all 7 runs and 13 hits in 6 2/3 innings, for those of
    you who didn't see the game.  He gave up the last two runs in the 7th
    on a Paul Molitor hoimer, when he should have been resting in the
    dugout.
    
    NAZZ

 maybe it's not too late to cast those Cy votes for Roger???

 ;^)

    	In fairness to Lamont NAZZ, it was only 5-3 and BlackJack is their
    best pitcher.
    
    				/Don

McDowell was their winningest pitcher, but (IMHO) Fernandez
and Alvarez were the two most effective pitchers for the
Chisox entering this series.

    McDowell had great run support in the regular season.  There were
    several other pitchers in the league with better ERAs and worse W-L
    records.  McDowell may be the ChiSox version of Jack Morris.

    Still, I cannot see how you allow him to pitch the 6th inning (never
    mind the 7th!) with the team down only two runs when it is obvious
    McDowell simply doesn't have it.
      
    The White Sox bullpen is supposedly strong and deep - use it!
    
    NAZZ

    
    Yeah, when a guy is taking the beating that McDowell was and is still
    only down two runs when it should have been much worse that's exactly 
    when you cut your losses and give yourself a shot to come back and win
    the game.  The score should only matter for strategic reasons (if the
    deficit is large enough then you might just want to save the bullpen)
    and not as a measure of the guy's effectiveness.  We debated this
    before about McDowell and his reputation-- in spite of the gaudy W-L
    record the guy pitches batting practice almost every other time out,
    and last night was one of those nights...
    
    glenn
     

 Didn't they also say he thrived on Big Game Pressure???? 

 mike

Joey Cora's throw pulls Dan Pasqua off the bag in the top
of the first allowing Rickey Henderson to reach bas leading
off.  Henderson scores on Alomar's fielder's choice, Jays 
lead, 1-0.

    the Sox knocked off the Blow Jays tonite, 6-1.
    
    JaKe
    

    White Sox win games 3 and 4. Series even at 2-2.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Jays win game 5 to go back to the windy city up 3 games to 2..
    
    REK
    
    Score 5-3......

must be slow if I'm posting baseball stuff but anyways here goes...

Given that there's no DH in PHilly, people are naturally wondering what
happens to Molitor. Possibilities are he could play 3rd, 1st or left.
They talk to all the repective players and of course Molitor, Sprague
and Olerud took the company line and said "gosh Shucks of course I want to
play but I'll do what's best for the team".

Good ole Ricky though

	"We'll do what's best for the team. I want to win. I may have had
 a bad series, but I'm too good not to play."


 easy to see why he's 'Saw's idol   ;^) 

Heard a rumor that Sid Fernandez signed today with the Orioles.  Guess they 
want to use he and Fernando as bookends (this is a refernce to each person's 
considerable girth).

=Bob=

    Wow, how did he get by the Red Sox?  I guess kicking Gorman upstairs is
    starting to pay off already.

�    Wow, how did he get by the Red Sox?  I guess kicking Gorman upstairs is
�    starting to pay off already.


I'm glad he DIDN'T sign with the Red Sox.  Just the kind of guy to drive 
their payroll up, contribute little, and stop them from "rebuilding".

Anyone know if Game 6, 1975 WS is scheduled to be shown on SportsChannels
"Greatest Games EVer" series?


'Saw

    Don't know.  I've seen the 78 playoff game on there before.  I've seen
    other championship and WS games (game 5 69 series I think) too, but I
    don't get Sportschannel here.  (Dad does in Albany).
    

    Here's a list I got from a friend at Sportschannel:
    
    Next Tuesday:  1952 World Series, Game 7:  Yankees vs Dodgers.
    
    Friday, DEC. 31:  1968 World Series, Game 1:  Detroit vs St. Louis
    (Bob Gibson strikes out 17 Tiger batters!)
    
    Still to come (dates TBA in 1994):
    
    1969 World Series, Game 5:  Baltimore vs NY Mets (ugh!)
    
    1971 All-Star Game:  Reggie Jackson goes rooftop; Also Home runs by
    Henry Aaron, Roberto Clemente, and Frank Robinson.
    
    1971 World Series, Game 7:  Pirates vs Orioles
    
    1975 World Series, Game 6:  I forget who played in this one  ;-)
    
    1978 AL East Playoff Game:  The worst experience I ever had at a
    sporting event.  Zimmer pinch-hits Bob Bailey for Jack Brohamer with
    Goose Gossage coming into the game?????  AAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHH!!!
    
    1978 World Series, Game 4:  Yankees vs Dodgers
    
    NAZZ
    
    

>1969 World Series, Game 5:  Baltimore vs NY Mets (ugh!)
                                                  1918! 1918!

The Crazy Met

    They should pick up more regular season playoff games or even
    pennant/division clinching type games.
    
    for example one great game would be Atlanta - Cinnci in '91 with
    Justice hitting gamewinner off of Dibble after great comeback.
    
    That was when I was rooting braves on before they got good.  Once they
    became perennial NL favorites I figured ACC-Chris could handle it on
    his own

    Whatsa regular season playoff game?

    1978 yanks-sox; yaz vs gossage

    Tiger-Jays last day of the 1987 season is another that comes to mind.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

Thanks Nazz.

I'll be keeping my eye out for that 1975 game, and have the VCR all warmed
up.

As long as I live I will never forget that game from the 8th inning on....


'Saw

    Michael Jordan will report to camp with the White Sox to try out for
    the RF position.
    

    
    
    	Yabbut won't that put a cramp in his golftime?
    
    I remain,
    thinking he couldd be a pretty good volleyball player, though
    Kev
    

    Re: Jordan playing baseball
    
    He said he was doing pretty good on the pitching machine so he'll
    tryout.  Yeah right, Mike.  You owe Reinsdorf and he's making you
    embarass yourself so that you'll have to come back to the Bulls to save
    face.

This will be a fascinating case study in whether a super athelete can
switch to another sport - at the highest level - and be successful at it
without having had any real experience in playing the game.

The Crazy Met

Uhh, is it April 1st already?

    A rightfielder has some of the longest throws to make as well and he
    couldn't even reach the plate when throwing out the first ball in the
    ALCS.

    Hey Glenn,
    	Now that I'm in (close) the right note, did I skim over something
    about you fessin up to your series pick of Philly.  I'd forgotten about
    that and missed your snack of crow.
    
    	I also forgot to gloat about my picking philly,jays,jays.  I even
    won $5 on phils, $10 on jays but I've yet to see that sawski.
    
    	But Philly did a great job against the pros from Canada.
    
    

    Jordan and baseball is a non-item.  Baseball is his first love, but
    that's about it.  As Kirby Puckett said, he may be able to hit some
    straight ones off a machine, but he hasn't seen a curve ball yet.
    
    As of last night on the local Chicago news, other than Michael killing
    3-4 hours of spare time at Commisky, this is not a story.  Michael
    appears he has too much time on his hands already.  IF he ever went to
    spring training, it'd only be because the owner lets him as a favor.  
    
    Sorta like attending a fantasy camp... without paying.  
    
    
    Spud

    Hmmm....  Becoming a professional baseball player with little to
    no experience...  Yeah...  Thats a good way to stay out of the "Super
    Mega Star" spotlight...
    
    _GSH_

    El Tiante didn't make it into the Hall of Fame on this ballot.  One of
    the Boston baseball writers (Shaughnessy?) makes a good case on Tiant's
    behalf.  Tiante's career numbers compare favorably with Hall of Famer
    Catfish Hunter.  Tiant pitched for some pretty weak Cleveland and
    Boston teams for most of his career while Hunter pitched for strong
    Oakland and NY Yankee teams.

    
    Unfortunately, you really have to do better than stack up against
    Catfish Hunter's regular-season career, because it's not all that
    spectacular.  Hunter is in the HOF justifiably or not based on his
    post-season accomplishment, and not even a clutch pitcher like Luis 
    Tiant measures up in that department.  Shaughnessy's argument is the 
    same least-common-demoninator rationale that puts about a 1000 players
    in the Hall.  That includes latter-day Red Sox such as Tiant, Rice, 
    and Evans, none of whom quite make the grade, in my opinion.
    
    glenn
    

Did Rice or Evans have 400 HR?

That would probably get them in eventually.

The Crazy Met

> Did Rice or Evans have 400 HR?
    
    Nope, they both fell just short.  Both are in the ballpark with Cepeda. 
    Didn't quite hit .300 lifetime, didn't quite hit 400 HRs.  At least
    Evans had the glove (Rice was okay for awhile; Cepeda, forget it, even
    when he was young and relatively healthy), but he wasn't quite as good
    a hitter as the other two, either.
    
    glenn
    

�Did Rice or Evans have 400 HR?
    
    I think Rice ended up with 382 and his lifetime BA dipped to .298. 
    Those extra HR and 2 extra BA points would have made him a shoe-in. 
    Who ever would have thought a guy could decline so rapidly.

    If guys like Sutton or Niekro don't get in, don't hold your breath
    on Tiant.
    

    The argument against Sutton and Neikro was that their only claim to
    fame was the career wins which were more a factor of longevity than
    talent.

    But then they deny Cepeda because of his stats (no magic numbers
    (.300,400hrs)
    
    I wonder if this puts Rice in jeopardy
    
    billb

�    I wonder if this puts Rice in jeopardy
    
    Rice's rapid decline (which prevented him from getting .300 and 400)
    and his unpopularity with the Boston media (and media in general),and
    the injury that cost him a WS appearance will probably over shadow his
    MVP year, and his reputation as the one of baseball's most feared
    hitters in his prime.

Then again an MVP year in itself does not qualify someone for HoF.
Neither does being a feared hitter for a number of years.

The Crazy Met

    Jim Ed Rice belongs in the HOF!
    
    					Steve

    >>Then again an MVP year in itself does not qualify someone for HoF.
    >>Neither does being a feared hitter for a number of years.
    >>
    >>The Crazy Met
    
    Exactly the case with the Cepeday turndown.
    
    b

    Dwight Evans in the HoF is a joke.  He is a .272 lifetime hitter, with
    no speed.  He never led the league in any category, except home runs
    in the strike season - with 22.  He never had as many as 35 home runs
    in a season and only had more than 100 rbis twice.
    
    Rice on the other hand had more than 200 hits in a season 3 times (led
    the league once), led the league in HR 3 times, RBI twice, and slugging
    pct twice.  He had over 100 RBI in a season eight times.  Had 39 or
    more homers in a year four times.  He batted over .300 seven times;
    Evans batted over .300 once.
    
    The argument for Tiant is more compelling.  Here are his numbers,
    compared to Catfish Hunter, who is in the HoF:
    
    		 W   L   PCT  ERA    G   CG    IP    H    BB   SO   ShO
    Hunter	224 166 .574  3.26  500  181  3448  2958  945 2012  42
    Tiant       229 172 .571  3.30  573  187  3485  3075 1104 2416  49
    
    
    And in the post-season, first LCS then World Series:
    Hunter	 4   3  .571  3.25   10   3    69    57   18   37   0
    Tiant        1   0 1.000  0.93    2   1    9.2    4    3    8   0
    
    Hunter	 5   3  .625  3.29   12   1    63    57   17   33   0
    Tiant        2   0 1.000  3.60    3   2    25    25    8   12   1
    
    The numbers are remarkably similar, and both pitchers were the kind
    of performers who you wanted to see with the ball on the mound in a
    must-win situation.  When you consider that Tiant compiled his stats
    for far inferior teams than those Hunter played for, it's a mystery
    why Luis is not in the HoF.  I hope it's not a bias due to his heavy
    accent or his Cuban origins.
    
    NAZZ

    >>Then again an MVP year in itself does not qualify someone for HoF.
    >>Neither does being a feared hitter for a number of years.
    
    Try adding them together.

�    Dwight Evans in the HoF is a joke.  He is a .272 lifetime hitter, with
�    no speed.  He never led the league in any category, except home runs
�    in the strike season 
    
    You (like many) are overlooking his defensive contributions.  The guy
    has a pile of gold gloves at home.

                                                       
>    Dwight Evans in the HoF is a joke.  He is a .272 lifetime hitter, with
>    no speed.  He never led the league in any category, except home runs
>    in the strike season - with 22.  He never had as many as 35 home runs
>    in a season and only had more than 100 rbis twice.
    
    Check out Evans' lifetime OBP compared to Rice's (Evans was a patient
    hitter, an excellent tablesetter with power when he batted out of the
    #2 spot, as opposed to Rice, a free-swinger who had some problems with 
    good pitching, particularly breaking-ball artists).  Then consider that
    Evans was legitimately one of the greatest defensive RFs in history.
    I don't think he measures up to the HOF, nor quite up to Rice, but in
    the complete package, credentials like Evans' with his ~10 Gold Gloves 
    and ~400 career HRs are certainly not a joke.
    
    Tiant's numbers compare favorably to Hunter's but Hunter pitched almost
    4 times as many innings in the postseason, and those 9 postseason wins 
    that contributed to three WS titles are what he's remembered for
    (that's what I meant when I said "justifiably or not"; not everybody 
    gets that opportunity, and Hunter certainly had a lot of help).  The 
    ~3.30 ERAs, 225 wins that these two put up mostly in a pitchers' era 
    just aren't that incredible.  They're both way back of Seaver, Palmer,
    Gibson, Koufax, etc., even Jenkins, Perry, imo.  If anything, Hunter 
    is very fortunate to be in, because he's just about on the last rung of
    the ladder.  Just depends from which side you look at it.  I tend to 
    support the position that the HOF should be *very* exclusive...
    
    glenn
     

                 
    Just to support the comments I made about Evans' overlooked offensive
    contributions, for his career Evans had a BA/OBP/SLG of .272/.370/.470
    to Rice's .298/.356/.502.  He drew 1391 walks, helping him to score 
    1470 runs to Rice's 1249.  He also had four 100-RBI seasons and his
    career total of 1381 isn't far behind Rice's 1451.  So in spite of not
    quite leading the league in this category or that category or only 
    hitting 30 HRs instead of 35, Evans was right up there year in and year 
    out.  After about 1980 the guy really was an offensive force if you 
    properly account for his ability to get on base and score runs in 
    addition to hitting for power.  It just most likely took him too far 
    along in his career to get going in order to make the HOF, and he never
    had that one great and memorable year...
    
    glenn
    

    
    
       OK
    
        So 
    1 Feared hitter
    2 MVP
    3 League leader in something.
    
    
         Does this mean That in about 10 years when Donnie Baseball is
    eligible, you guys will be supporting me right?
    
    
    Chappy

    And it goes to show you why Thurman Munson will never make it to the
    HOF..
    
    REK
    
    Donny MAtt... HOF... HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    

    
    
        Well if Donny won't make it. Than save your fingernails boys cuz
    Rice and Evans aren't on the same planet.
    
    
    
    Chap

    Donny can't hold Rice's Jockstrap.....
    
    REK

    Yeah, that Donny Mattingly... 209 career Yankee Stadium rightfield
    porch home runs and counting... if that cranky back holds up for
    another decade he might even hit 300.
    
    glenn
    

    When did Donbo win the MVP?

    
>    When did Donbo win the MVP?
    
    1985...
    
    
    glenn
    

    
    
    
        1985 MTFM
    
    
          He also won it in 86 according to the Sporting news but the idiot
    writers gave it to some pitcher.
    
             

�             -< What was Yaz's lifetime BA??????? Bahhhhhhhhhhhh >-
    
    How many Triple Crowns did Donbo win?  How many WS appearances does
    Donbo have?
    
�          He also won it in 86 according to the Sporting news but the idiot
�    writers gave it to some pitcher.
    
    Sorry, Chappy.  Just another excellent loss.

    	Hey Chappy are these the same "idiot writers" who gave the MVP
    award to Mattingly just one year prior?
    
    				/Don

    Chappy is juts admitting that Rice over Guidry in 1978 was the right
    choice.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

>               -< Two weeks till pitchers/catchers report!  ;-) >-

Kinda makes you tingle all over with anticipation, don't it?

cain't wait!
    

    
    Drove by ASU and saw them practicing last week.  THAT makes you feel
    like spring is almost here.
    
    brews

I'm surprised no one (especially MAB) has been in here gushing over
Mikey Air-Nathan-Detroit Jordan signing a Triple A contract with Chicago
yesterday.

It was the talk of the FAN last night, and the general concensus is as
follows:


	1. White Sox outfield prospect in their farm system are
	   abyssmal.

	2. Jordan isn't really stepping over anyone, since there's
	   no one there to step over.

	3. Jordan has been hitting 50 mph batting practice pitches
	   but probably won't do squat when he faces real pitchers
	   with movement on the ball.

	4. Jordan probably won't hit his weight.

	5. A few ballplayers called in to talk about Jordan's swing
	   and the word is that he's a) lunging and b) bailing out.
	   [I haven't seen footage on him so I don't know]



For my money, this ranks right up there with Bill Veeck signing a midget
to play.  It'll fill seats perhaps, but that's about it.....


'saw

    I heard that Jordan can hit a curve now, but only if he knows 
    it is coming.  
    
    Saw a clip of Ted Williams discussing Jordan this morning.  Ted
    says that hitting major league pitching will be the hardest thing
    Michael has ever done.
    
    I'd still like to see him in there against some real pitchers, not
    the Sox GM.
    
    Mike

>    Saw a clip of Ted Williams discussing Jordan this morning.  Ted
>    says that hitting major league pitching will be the hardest thing
>    Michael has ever done.
    
That coming from one of the greatest hitters of all time......


It's probably clich� by now, but that old adage about hitting a round
ball with a round bat, and being considered excellent if you can do it
successfully 1/3 of the time really comes into play here.


I've heard that the difference between and 85 and a 90 mph fastball
is like the difference between driving on the highway and going light
speed.


Hitting a baseball has to be one of the hardest things in all of sport......

    
>	2. Jordan isn't really stepping over anyone, since there's
>	   no one there to step over.
    
    Tell that to a guy like Warren Newson, a lifetime minor-league 
    .300 BA/.400+ OBP man, who was first passed over by a couple of
    has-been stiffs like George Bell and Bo Jackson, and now by the 
    attention surrounding Jordan.  Believe me, there is no shortage 
    of reasonably qualified players in the White Sox' system who have
    devoted their lives to get this kind of opportunity.  Actually, I 
    still don't think it's much of a concern *if* Jordan starts by 
    working out and playing with the minor-leaguers in spring training, 
    but if the White Sox do go in for the full-fledged publicity stunt 
    by giving Jordan most of the playing time in RF, they'll be hurting 
    themselves by denying the needed ABs to players like Newson and 
    Darrin Jackson.  Then again, with Jerry Reinsdorf calling the shots, 
    anything's possible...
    
    glenn
    

>    Tell that to a guy like Warren Newson, a lifetime minor-league 
>    .300 BA/.400+ OBP man, who was first passed over by a couple of

I don't think they mentioned him on the FAN last night.  They did mention
one guy who was like 33 and who's been around the league a bit.
I didn't catch his name.

>    Darrin Jackson.  Then again, with Jerry Reinsdorf calling the shots, 
>    anything's possible...
    
Again, I'm reminded of some of Bill Veeck's "stunts".


'Saw    

    
>>    Tell that to a guy like Warren Newson, a lifetime minor-league 
>>    .300 BA/.400+ OBP man, who was first passed over by a couple of
>
> I don't think they mentioned him on the FAN last night.  They did mention
> one guy who was like 33 and who's been around the league a bit.
> I didn't catch his name.
    
    That's not Newson; he's only 29.  Darrin Jackson is 31 and was a fairly
    decent ballplayer before he contracted some kind of viral infection
    that set him back last year; he should be okay now although he's no
    great hitter.  Sounds like WFAN was talking about the over-the-hill 
    non-candidates like Mike Huff or Dan Pasqua.  These are not the guys
    likely to be playing RF for the Chisox this year, and not because of
    Michael Jordan...
    
    glenn
    

    I bet Newsom makes the big club and Jordan starts in the minors and
    gives up by July.
    

    >Hitting a baseball has to be one of the hardest things in all of sport......
    
    especially with a Kruk-sized gut in the way.
    
    Re: chin music
    
    Ainge said recently that Roger Clemens told him the same thing on his
    last Boston trip.  The Rocket was wondering how Michael would react to
    it.

I can't think of anything that would pump up a pitcher more than facing
Wanna-Be....

I can just hear some catcher like Crash Davis looking up at Mr Three-Rings
and saying "C'mon Meat, let's see what you got...."

    
    Jordan's biggest problem (on the field, other issues like his age
    notwithstanding; he's 31 next week) with the bat is going to be that 
    at 6'6" he possesses a *huge* strike zone.  It'd be tough enough to
    learn to hit without the disadvantage of having to cover that strike 
    zone against all kinds of breaking pitches.  It's no coincidence that 
    there are very few non-pitchers with that kind of height in baseball, 
    and that those hitters who are that tall are almost always guys who 
    can hit the ball over the fence as opposed to for average.  Jordan's 
    speed helps, but in baseball terms he's more Dave Winfield than Deion 
    Sanders, and at his size that's really the style he'd probably have 
    to adopt to be successful...
    
    glenn
    

Or try and hit from a Rod Carew-like crouch.....

NOT 8^&)

    	Everyone keeps focusing on Jordan's ability (or inability) to hit
    pro pitching.  Since when is baseball a one dimensional offensive game?
    Pitchers hit .050, shortstops hit .200 or less.  Outfielders with
    blazing speed are very valuable regardless of their bat.  Base stealers
    are also very valuable.
    
    	If Danny Ainge can play both sports doesn't Jordan have at least a
    small chance ?
    
    	Also, lets remember baseball is really an entertainment business.
    Sorry to offend any pure sport entusiasts, but baseball is
    ENTERTAINMENT.  Don't you think Jordan will put a few more fans in the
    seats, regardless of whether he hits or not ?
    
    	Chicago has TWO pro baseball teams competing for fans. Michael
    Jordan is the most popular person in Chicago, if not the world, and
    will definitely put more fans in the stands.  Thats the bottom line.
    
    D_Don

Hey, he can't be any worse than Minnie Minoso right?

Puh-lease. Ainge was a .200 hitter and would've been out of 
baseball in another year or two. 

Jordan isn't a pitcher or ss. He's attempting to make the team as 
an OF. A position that where offense is expected. How many .200 
hitting RF are starting in baseball?

Fans will come to watch him play, not ride the pine. He should 
concentrate on being the next Herb Washington, at least we know 
he can run.

daryll

Yeah, Jordan -- if he makes it through spring training, will
pack 'em in no doubt.  And that's why he was hired.

But, bottom line, most folks who know don't think he'll hit
his weight, and quite frankly, they expect outfielders to
hit -- either for average, with good speed on the basepath
or for power.  I doubt Mikey will do either....

'Saw

and Danny Ainge played both baseball and basketball in college. Jordan
hasn't played baseball since the age of 15. 

The Crazy Met

                                                                  
>    Everyone keeps focusing on Jordan's ability (or inability) to hit
>    pro pitching.  Since when is baseball a one dimensional offensive game?
>    Pitchers hit .050, shortstops hit .200 or less.  Outfielders with
>    blazing speed are very valuable regardless of their bat.  Base stealers
>    are also very valuable.
  
    Pitchers hit .140 on average.  What shortstops hit .200 or less and
    last more than a season? (no, not even Mark Belanger was that bad). 
    Outfielders with blazing speed are not valuable at all unless they 
    can at least hold their own with the bat-- the bush leagues and bone
    yards are full of players like that.  Besides, you're making a huge 
    assumption that just by putting on a mitt Michael Jordan will 
    immediately become a great defensive outfielder.  That's not going to 
    happen.  I'm not even sure of the "blazing speed" part, for starters.
    
>    Also, lets remember baseball is really an entertainment business.
>    Sorry to offend any pure sport entusiasts, but baseball is
>    ENTERTAINMENT.  Don't you think Jordan will put a few more fans in the
>    seats, regardless of whether he hits or not ?
    
    For about five minutes, until the next sideshow comes along.  If
    Michael Jordan were allowed to embarass himself over a prolonged
    period, after a while he wouldn't draw flies (not that either he or the
    White Sox would allow this to happen-- I hope).  The White Sox really
    don't need a big short term attendance boost; they look to be pennant
    contenders for some years to come.  Jerry Reinsdorf might need Jordan
    to sell the Bulls down the line, though, no contesting that...  
    
    glenn
    

> and Danny Ainge played both baseball and basketball in college. Jordan
> hasn't played baseball since the age of 15. 

  Err, no, he didn't.  Ange played professional baseball during his college
  years, first with Syracuse, then with Toronto.  His last year with the
  Blue Jays was his senior year in college.

    Ainge is just a great all-around athlete.  He's also an excellent
    golfer.

Belanger was a lifetime .228 hitter.  Low, but not .200...

His best year was 1969, with .287 and 1976 with .270

His worst year (that he played more than 100 games) was .167

Definitely a glove man, but a glove man EXTRAORDINAIRE....


Jordan just doesn't have it....


'Saw

re: .377

ok I got the details wrong, but Ainge was playing baseball all along.

The Crazy Met

      jordan will be trying the golf tour next year since he won't make it
    in boring-ball

    Yeah right, he'd starve to death even if he made the PGA cut.

Boy I really hope he makes it big so you guys can shovel some SLOF....

;^)

    You guys have got it right.  The Chicago media is just giving this an
    incredible amount of attention.  In yesterday's Sun-Times they went so
    far as to list pitch by pitch of his cuts against this college kid. 
    The kid said he was only throwing in the sixties and from the accounts,
    Michael didn't get good wood on much.  As for him hitting the curve,
    pul-eeez.  They only way he has hit a curve is when Schuler told him
    before hand and threw about half-speed.  I'm sure Schuler is getting
    direct orders from Sox management to let this thing grow.  I'm sure he
    would have told Michael to take a hike by now otherwise.
    
    This is defiantely all about money.  On Monday after Jordan signed the 
    minor league contract with Nashville, the Sounds sold $65,000 worth of
    season tickets.  Poor Mike, he thinks they Sox actually believe in him.
    
    They're just using him for all he's worth - which, cha-ching will
    probably be pretty significant. 
    
    I hope Michael doesn't embarrass himself too long.
    
    
    Spud
    

    I've really tried to avoid commenting on the Michael Jordan to baseball 
    situation, but I can't keep still any longer.  Just a few points:
    
    1) Most of the media complaints from Jordan's effort seems to be
    steeped in pure jealousy.  Many of these reporters are sports has-beens
    or wannabes that are living their fantasies out by covering sports that
    they weren't good enough to compete in, so they naturally resent Jordan
    even trying to be successful in two sports.
    
    2) Basball "purists" (what a joke) say that his trying out is a
    travesty to the game.  No - artifical turf, the DH, expansion,
    three-tied playoffs, Pete Rose, Marge Schott - those are travesties to
    the game.  If Michael can make it, best of luck to him.  If he can't,
    it will be a travesty to him and Jerry Reinsdorf, but no one else.
    
    3) Saying spring training will become a circus is ludicrous on the face
    of it, since spring training is already a circus.  At least this will
    give bored writers stuck in Florida for six weeks something else to
    write about than the obligatory "Rookie phenom looks sharp in debut"
    and "Old pro readies for another go-round" stories that sicken them to
    write and us to read.
    
    4) I'm not a big fan of Jordan personally, but if his ego can accept
    failure (which is most likely the outcome), then everyone who is now on
    his case can say I told you so.  But until that time, back off, let him
    compete, and let the chips fall where they may.
    
    NAZZ
    

�    4) I'm not a big fan of Jordan personally, but if his ego can accept
�    failure (which is most likely the outcome), then everyone who is now on
�    his case can say I told you so.  But until that time, back off, let him
�    compete, and let the chips fall where they may.
 
Haven't put that much thought into this whole thang, and I'm no big fan of 
Jordan either, but I did like his quote.  Wish I could remember it exactly, but
it was somehting like "I'm not afraid of failing, it's not trying that I can't
handle".  More profound language, but that's the gist.
 
=Bob=

The only reason that Michael Jordan got a tryout
at his age and with his ability is because of who he
is.

That's what I have a problem with.....

Any other regular joe with that talent level wouldn't
even get a tryout.....

'Saw

    It's all in how it's handled.  I don't begrudge Jordan his "tryout", if
    he indeed means what he says by "I'll do what everyone else has to do
    to make it" and spends his time as necessary in the minor-league camp 
    and in the minor leagues-- even though there is no question but that
    extra-special treatment has already been granted to allow a 31-year-old
    even this much.  If the intention is to bring him north and have him 
    sit on the end of the bench for publicity purposes (again, I seriously 
    doubt that either he or the Chisox would go this far), then it's a joke.  
    To this extent at least the "baseball purist" argument is a red herring.  
    No basketball fan would be happy about seeing Barry Bonds ride the pine 
    and play exhibitions to sell tickets; no football fan would be happy to 
    see Shaquille O'Neal do the same.  Basically (*if* it comes to this) no
    one who is a serious fan of any sport likes to see a completely 
    unqualified player carried on a roster for publicity purposes.
    
    If it doesn't get carried away, I don't mind the brief initial exposure
    for baseball.  I was delighted to hear the greatest basketball player
    in the history of the game state that while he was most suited for that
    game, that baseball always was his (and his father's) true love.  Very 
    politically incorrect, Michael ('course Larry Bird has said the same
    thing, too).
    
    glenn
    

    (")If the baseball owners don't keep Michael Jordan away from baseball
    they'll have nothing but sold out stadiums everywhere he goes...(")
    
    I just wonder what kind of hitting tutoring he is getting?  "Dr.
    Hriniak" is still around I presume.  One advantage may be his not
    swinging the bat in organized games since his peewee days - he may not
    have irremedial bad habits.
    
    The other thing that may help is that players have excellent quality
    batting helmets and though some brushbacking is still prevalent there
    are no serious beanballs anymore.  The ability to get out of the way of
    a fastball on the chin when expecting a curveball takes a type of
    muscle memory that's best learned young.
    

Hriniak is working with Jordan.

daryll

    The only thing different between what Michael Jordan is doing and what
    any other White Sox draft pick or non-roster spring training invitee is
    doing is that he is Michael Jordan -- he attracts the attention of the
    sporting world no matter what he does.  
    
    There is no arguing that the guy is an outstanding athlete.  There is
    an argument that he might not be a good baseball player.  That's why
    he's trying out for the team and not simply being handed a glove and a
    uniform.
    
    'Saw, even you can try out for the Red Sox.  They usually have some
    kind evaluation camp held in various spots throughout New England.

�    	If Danny Ainge can play both sports doesn't Jordan have at least a
�    small chance ?
    
    But Danny at least played baseball in college.  Jordan didn't.

Did Ainge actually play both sports at once? Didn't he quit 
baseball before he began playing with the Celts?

daryll

> Did Ainge actually play both sports at once? Didn't he quit 
> baseball before he began playing with the Celts?


 seems to me Toronto made him play a few games the year the Celts
 drafted him in order to say they were abiding by the contract and
 Ainge should also. Forcing Red to go to court and waste a lot of 
 unneccesary time and money. Then Red had tha audacity to run
 Gerald out of town to play the bum....

 Ainge did serve a purpose though. You could always count on him for a
 few turnovers to keep the spread close...

 mike

    
>    The only thing different between what Michael Jordan is doing and what
>    any other White Sox draft pick or non-roster spring training invitee is
>    doing is that he is Michael Jordan -- he attracts the attention of the
>    sporting world no matter what he does.  
    
    Not true.  Only 35-40 players get a chance to make the big club, and
    most of the draft picks and non-roster players do not (and they had 
    to demonstrate long before that they were even worthy to become draft
    picks and non-roster players).
    
>    'Saw, even you can try out for the Red Sox.  They usually have some
>    kind evaluation camp held in various spots throughout New England.
    
    Also not true.  Even these token tryout camps have a maximum age 
    requirement, usually 25.  Beyond that even individuals with some talent
    are not even worth the investment in minor-league roster space, time,
    and expenses.
    
    Tommy, to each his own.  If you wouldn't mind seeing that stuff just to
    have a celebrity around that's fine.  The Barry Bonds example was only a
    hypothetical.  Make it Reggie Jackson in his prime.  I have my doubts
    that a pro's pro like Nazz would have looked fondly on Reggie Jackson
    getting a serious training camp tryout with the Celtics based simply on
    his fame and some very remotely related athletic ability. 
    
    glenn
     

                                                                  
>     If Reinsdorf wants to reward Mike
>     for all those world titles and all the money that Mike has made him
>     by letting him fulfill a fantasy, how is that a travesty?
 
    Yeah, I know, I've already said that I agree that if that's all it is 
    I'm not violently opposed.  I'm not outraged or offended or anything.  
    I don't take it *that* seriously, just a little bit sometimes. ;-)
      
    Believe it or not I always have been a Jordan defender in here.  I have
    and still believe that he's a decent person at heart.  This is not a
    cynical "Jordan's ego" thing for me, per se...
    
    glenn
                                        

    As a matter of fact, I enjoyed it a few years back when David DuPee of
    USA Today spent three weeks with the Celtics at camp, going through
    every drill at double sessions, partaking in the scrimmages, and even
    getting to play in one exhibition game.  He held his own, although it
    was obvious that he wasn't an NBA-caliber player.  There certainly was
    no harm in it, he got an insight into what it takes to compete for a
    spot at that level, and got to write about it and share his insights.
    
    As for other sports stars trying out fo rthe Celtics, bring them on!
    Mike Greenwell could give Sherm a run for the point guard spot (right!), 
    Chris Slade could take on fellow ACC-alum Rick Fox at off-guard,
    but I think Mo Vaughn would have trouble at power forward at only 6-2.
    If Delano DeShields wants to try out with the Clippers next season, I'd
    be the first to applaud him.  He was an All-state HS basketball player
    who had a scholarship to Villanova before he opted for baseball.
    
    NAZZ

    	Hey Tommy, how would you feel about Nancy Kerrigan trying out
    for the Red Sox?
    
    				/Don

    Hriniak?!  He'll never hit now.

    How long before Jordan and Harding get a shot at Holyfield?

    
>    Hriniak?!  He'll never hit now.
    
    If there's a person in baseball who can take a lousy banjo hitter and
    make him a passable hitter, it's Hriniak, though.  I wouldn't want the
    guy messing with a great natural power-hitting talent, but for getting
    something out of the Ozzie Guillens and Joey Coras of the game,
    Hriniak's the man...
    
    glenn
    

    
    Cain't be too far away now.  This AM I was at a meeting with customers
    and could see them putting the foul lines down at the Angels' Cactus
    League field.  That and the fact that I've had to turn the A/C on in my
    car the last three days in a row means undoubtably that Spring is in
    the air.
    
    brews 

>    Cain't be too far away now.  This AM I was at a meeting with customers
>    and could see them putting the foul lines down at the Angels' Cactus
>    League field.  That and the fact that I've had to turn the A/C on in my
>    car the last three days in a row means undoubtably that Spring is in
>    the air.
    

This time of year, even though there is a foot of snow in my back yard
and the driveway is barely wide enough to drive down, I can't help but
think of the title of that book by Tom Boswell -- "Why Time Begins on
Opening Day"......


I'm 35 years old and I still have that fever that I used to get as a
little guy.  I'll still pick up the glove every now and again during the
winter and smell the leather, close my eyes and imagine the feel of the 
sun on my skin, imagine squinting up into that blue, almost white
hot sky trying to track a fly ball, imagine feeling that first and
most satisfying hit work it's way up my forearms as I head to first
base....

It's coming, man....It's coming......


'Saw

>    car the last three days in a row means undoubtably that Spring is in
>    the air.
    
    yeah tell me about it.  The weather has been great!
    
    >I'm 35 years old and I still have that fever that I used to get as a
    
    yeah but that's in dog years. 

    After the Pete Rose incident, should the AL investigate Jordan and
    clear him of any gambling accusations before he's eligible to play?

    
    Mike,
    
    Yer listening to Arnie too much.  Rose was canned 'cause he gambled on
    his team/his sport.  All Mike did was make a golf wager, which is
    probably pretty universal among the MLBers who golf.
    
    brews

    
    	Oh no!  Now they'll never let MJ into the Baseball HOF......
    
    Claybone

    What accusations?  Is Mike betting on baseball now?

    No, but was Mike ever cleared of betting on basketball?  Did he really
    retire because he wanted to or was he forced out?

	Here's a quote from a clarinet article about Jordan's latest
	attempt at being a baseball player...

>>	``You have to be patient. I think it's going to be gradual
>>	improvement for me,'' he said. ``The last thing I want to be is a
>>	sideshow.
 
	Yeah, right!


	billl

    Phil Rizzuto and Leo Durocher named to the Hall of Fame.

�   Phil Rizzuto and Leo Durocher named to the Hall of Fame.

re: Scooter

Decent ballplayer, although I can't say for sure, he was before my time.  
Without a doubt, the WORST announcer I've ever heard.

=Bob=

    Bob= Phil is likely to make broadcasters HOF next year. He is not an
    announcer for everyone. I'm sure Red Sox fans hate him.
    
    

    I kinda like da Scooter as an announcer. Of course he's a blatant homer
    but we've had our share of them in Beantown. He can be so
    unintentionally funny. I holwed at Rizzuto telling the story about
    how he was hoodwinked by Meatloaf into doing 'Paradise by the Dashboard
    Lights'. Musta taken a full half-inning. Both Bill White and
    the other announcer(not Seaver or Murcer but the older guy) were
    roaring. Thank God for TV cuz nobody woulda known what the hell
    happened in that half-inning. And of course Scooter closes with"
    Meatloaf, that huckleberry." 
    
    MikeL
     

    Leo's family was given instructions upon his death, notifying them that
    they should not allow him to be inducted into the Baseball HoF. I
    wonder if any of them still care about that and if they'll turn it
    down.
    
    Dennis Faust
    

    Well at least we won't have to hear that Yankee fan whining over
    Rizzutto not being in the Hall anymore.  But that might also mean we'll
    have to hear double the whining about Munson now.

    
    
        What Yankee fan whining about scooter?
    
    
    
    Chap

    Rizzuto makes it and Maz don't, what a travesty!!!
    
    JaKe
    

Yea, aside from having no clue how to use the English language, being 
about as quick as a Red Sox baserunner, and as objective as Johnny Most, 
Scooter is a great announcer.

If he didn't say "holly cow" every two seconds, he wuldn't have anything to say.

Sorry David, but if he deserves to be in broadcaster's HOF, then then you and 
I deserve to be in the T&F Hall of Fame.

=Bob=

    When do you guys go in, Bob?  :*)
    
    
    Spud

    
    
    >> Yea, aside from having no clue how to use the English language,
    
      sheet, he could've been SPROTS NOTY of the Year [sic]
       
     

    These two are mostly before my time except for Rizzutos last few years.
    Phil lost time to the war like many.  He was considered the best a.l.
    shortstop overall for a decade and extremely respected.  Not a
    Belanger nor even a Durocher in the field but made the plays perfecting
    the ability to throw quickly to overcome below average arm.
    
    Bunting was his specialty.  His induction is the reward of winning
    since teams he led won all but two pennants (48,54) and were defense
    oriented with emphasis on always making the big play in the field,
    sacrificing ones ab's for the good of the team, clutch hitting vs
    average (eg opp. of our sox).
    
    Yankees had many fine candidates to play short and were not hesitant to
    replace even the popular Rizzuto the minute he was no longer the best
    and did with McDougal and he in turn Kubek (who retired before they
    could replace him).
    
    As an announcer he was no Johnny Most.
    
    Durocher of course as previously noted should have been in the hall at
    least right after his final retirement.  His was one of those
    non-baseball blackballs.  The combination of his clutch play and
    managerial success put him way ahead of the majority of hof'ers.
    
    

    I wonder what happened to him as a kid?  Get cut from his Little League
    team?
    
    
    Spud

    > -An excerpt from Chris Wohlwend's scathing
    >  piece in yesterday's Globe on baseball and
    >  the deep pruple prose written about the game. 
    
    I read that, and even though the piece contained some tongue-in-cheek 
    exaggerations (which you excerpted; the article was more humorous than
    "scathing"), I wholeheartedly agree with this guy in principle that 
    baseball gets a bad name from bad writing.  The fundamental problem is 
    that the writing concentrates not on the sport itself but on these 
    emotional sidelights with all the ridiculous life metaphors thrown in.  
    As a bonus, there's usually excessive, distorted reminiscing about the 
    past and one's boyhood ad nauseum that the game couldn't possibly live 
    up to.  History is great; nostalgia sucks.
    
    The guy's #1 on the bad baseball writing list was George Will's "Men at
    Work".  I couldn't agree more.  I couldn't get through this book; I
    really couldn't.  Hell, I couldn't get through the opening Tony LaRussa
    chapter, perhaps because there you have two overinflated windbags "at
    work".  The only author on the list that I had to disagree with was 
    Roger Angell.  Angell actually knows enough about the sport to provide 
    content (in article form, so no one topic becomes overbearing) *and* 
    can write reasonably well.  This is a rare combination in sports
    writing indeed.
    
    glenn
     

    
>    I don't think that when he writes, "Are you listening, Vince Coleman?
>    Lenny Dykstra? Jose Canseco? Wade Boggs, Jack Clark, Oil Can Boyd, Rob
>    Dibble, Roger Clemens? And Pete Rose and Steve Howe and Denny McLain
>    and Dwight Gooden?" that his message is baseball gets a bad name from 
>    bad writing.  It seems to me that his point is that baseball is an
>    over romanticized game with few redeeming qualities.
    
    Fair enough, but the subject of the article *is* the baseball literature, 
    not baseball, and it presents the stark contrast between reality and what 
    one would believe if he had nothing else to go on but this romantic pap.  
    The title of the article was "Prose Strikes Out", and the ten worst
    examples were listed.  I didn't read anything in there to suggest that
    beyond this bad writing that baseball was any different than any
    other pro sport with regard to the behavior of its players (do you 
    believe there is such a difference?) or that baseball is a sport with 
    "few redeeming qualities".  On the contrary, I have no doubt but that 
    this piece was written by a baseball fan, albeit a bitter one.  He was 
    too knowledgeable and too dead-on with those lists to be otherwise.  
    Anyone even familiar with (much less having read) an obscure piece of 
    crap like George Higgins' "Progress of the Seasons" (another book I
    couldn't finish) couldn't be otherwise.
          
    glenn
       

    
> Yet every year we get books about the kelly green fields and the 
> azure sky and blah blah blah.
    
    I think the critical point here is the difference between the game on
    the field (at any level), and the game represented by MLB off the 
    field in particular.  For a number of reasons that there's no point in 
    recounting here, I believe that baseball is a great sport.  There's
    nothing inherent in the game that has invited all the ugly examples
    that have been cited.  Even the romanticists would acknowledge these
    problems, in fact, more often that not they'll overdo it by contrasting
    them (I think unfairly) with "the way things used to be" (when the
    field really was kelly green and the sky azure, etc., etc.).  
    
    That still doesn't excuse the fact that the writing generally stinks, 
    however.  The real problem is that everyone and his brother who had 
    baseball as a part of his childhood (Will/Halberstam/Higgins/etc.)
    and then went on to become a successful author/essayist thinks he has 
    to write a damn book about it, and the book ends up being more about
    Joe BigWriter's childhood than baseball.  You'd think that the idea is 
    so tired that it'd represent an embarrassing career decision for the
    author, but apparently not.
    
    The better baseball books are the relatively unknown ones by relatively
    unknown, unegotistical writers who shut up about themselves, take a
    topic that can be handled, write simply and get out of the way by just 
    reporting on what they see and on what is *actually happening* (!).  
    David Lamb's "Stolen Season" about minor-league baseball and 
    Winegarten's (?) "Prophet of the Sandlots" about an aging baseball 
    scout are two examples... 
    
    glenn
    

RE         <<< Note 7.437 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!" >>>

>    I really tend to wonder whether Al Campanis and Marge Schott,
>   Albert Belle and Vince Coleman, Denny MacClain and Pete Rose 
>   occurring in the same sport are mere coincidences or indicative
>   of something wrong with the way the game is run and/or the pers-
>   onality types that the game requires. 

  Hardly. You've named 6 people including players and management from a time
span that covers at least 20 years. When you consider that there are 700 guys
per year playing in the majors there had to be at least 12000 minimum during
that period counting players and management. Six bad apples out of 12000 doesn't
mean there is something wrong with the game. That's 1/20th of 1%. 

  George

�Jim Bouton's Ball Four.

"I don't read THEM kinda books."

	Willie Mays - 1970
	(I said he was my favorite, not that he was the brightest)

    
    Tommy, it's probably no solace to you that the two sports commonly
    considered to be worth writing/making movies about are baseball 
    and... boxing.  I suspect that part of the reason is because both 
    sports have histories in mainstream America that go back decades 
    before even the invention of other sports (much less their ascendance 
    to popularity).  With boxing instead of the green field, azure sky 
    it's the smoky, sweaty gym where the "sweet science" is taught and
    learned.  I'm not really aware of what they are but the conventional 
    thinking is that there are several "good" boxing books.  I could be 
    wrong but again the translation for "good" could be the overly artistic 
    description of something that's actually quite simple and brutal and
    probably quite a bit different to the participants than those who think
    they know what they're writing about (I'll give Hemingway a break
    here; at least he knew what it was like to take a shot in the mouth
    in the makeshift ring from time to time).
    
    glenn
        

RE         <<< Note 7.441 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!" >>>

>      Wattaya want me to name every single screw up in baseball in the
>      last twenty years? Pulleeze.

  Look, you named 6 people then made the generalization that baseball has
problems. How many more incidence like that are there? Are you beating up on
baseball because every once in a while someone loses their temper and charges
the mound or mouths off a bit? The cases of blatant racism, gambling on the
game and the like are pretty rare considering the large number of people
involved. 

  George

>    had the audacity to speak his mind. You don't see that kind of 
>    behavior as often (if at all) in basketball or football.


But each sport seems to have their different sort of "flakes".

Football is a different animal all together, I think, due to the inherent
violence of the game.  When your body hurts all the time you don't 
pull as many pranks, I'd bet.  In football, I think a lot is swept under
the rug and never comes to light.   The stuff that does shows up
as things like the Zeke Mowatt/Lisa Olsen incident, the Jeff Alm drunk off
my ass let's blow my brains out incident, and things like that.   I think
there's a ton of steroid use that goes on and related things that never
make the light of day.


I can't really speak to basketball, as I'll be the first to admit that
I don't follow it all that much, but things that come to mind are
Mikey and his gambling (be it true or innuendo) and James Worthy and
his "two-to-go lunch"....


I think all sports have their incidents, the nature of which are truly
dependent upon the sport itself, the length of the season, and the
differing demands of the different sports...

JMO,
'Saw
    

RE         <<< Note 7.443 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!" >>>

>    Can you name a parallel to the Campanis or Schott incidents in
>    either football or basketball? Or Vince Coleman,

  These are isolated events and not in the same league as the other things
you mentioned. They are real problems but you are talking about a very small
number of people, hardly a representative sample.

>Albert Belle,

  I missed this one, what did he do?

>    Roger whipping hamburger buns? 

  Missed this one too, what are you talking about?

>Even Deion ... Tim McCarver ...
    
  McCarver deserved what he got for the terrible job he did as anchor at the
1992 Olympics at Albertville. I have no sympathy for the guy what so ever.
Neon would have dunked his head in the water and held it there for a while
except that those dumbo ears got in the way.

  George

    I really don't think there's any great difference in the psychological
    makeup of those involved with baseball, Tommy.  Marge Schott may be an
    exception; in today's world she appears to one of the last openly
    public racists, and hopefully she will expire as one of a kind.  As for 
    the rest of it, the boorish behavior et al, I don't see how you can 
    draw the distinction.  What about the Lisa Olsen incident (even if you 
    go by the tamest of versions)?  Furthermore what about Victor Kiam? 
    The papers on almost a daily basis have an athlete of one sport or 
    another involved in a rape, assault, or shooting.  If baseball writers
    are so bored that a player showing up for camp late or throwing some 
    food in the lockerroom becomes a big story in comparison with some real
    problems involving athletes then they're just missing the boat; I'm not
    alarmed by it.  I don't think that the average locker room scene is any
    too pretty in any sport, but with the 162-game season baseball writers 
    do seem to run out of creative ideas...
    
    glenn
    

>    >> McCarver deserved what he got for the terrible job he did as 
>    >> anchor at the 1992 Olympics at Albertville. 
>    
>       Teacher: George, hat is to head as shoe is to?
>       George: Cling peaches!
>    


Yeah, talk about a non sequiter.....

  Hey, what can I say, I like Sanders, I don't like McCarver.

  As for the topic, I don't see anyone discussing baseball here, this seems to
be strictly a discussion of the personal habits people involved with baseball. 
My rat hole is no deeper than anyone else's rat hole.

  George

	Maybe Marge is the last overt racist in baseball, but using 
front office minority hiring as a measuring stick, baseball has a track 
record that would make David Dukes proud.

				/Don

    
> Maybe Marge is the last overt racist in baseball, but using 
> front office minority hiring as a measuring stick, baseball has a track 
> record that would make David Dukes proud.
    
    As does the NFL.  Per a USA Today study published last year, the NFL
    had minority management hiring only a bit better than MLB, and relative
    to on-the-field representation quite a bit worse.  The NBA has done
    very well in this department, though...
    
    glenn
     

�        -< Project onto boxing and you'll see where I'm coming from... >-
    
    Let's help Tommy out with this projection.  He brings up Rose, Schott,
    et.al.  From boxing we have the likes of Mike "I can't fight cuz I'm
    behind bars" Tyson and Don King.  We have allegations of gambling and
    fixing orders of magnitude greater than Pete Rose and the Black Sox. 
    We have champions taking on patsies in order to prove to the world that
    they are the best at their sport.

    Jordan went 0-3 today against real pitching.  Struckout twice and lined
    out to the outfield.

I think it was in here the other day that we were talking about writers who
feel that they have to write a book about baseball blah blah blah.

Well, I got to thinking about it, and decided that the best writers who
write about baseball are sports writers or baseball writers.  The other
guys just like to masturbate with words, you know...

Now, of course, I'm excluding novelists, who use baseball as a vehicle
for their works of fiction (Kinsella and Malamud come to mind).  

(Another question to discuss -- why didn't Hemingway pen a baseball
novel.  He obviously knew the game, just look at _The_Old_Man_And_The_Sea_)

Anyway, that's my 2� on the subject.   


fwiw,
'Saw

>    
>     Refresh my memory - what was the baseball connection in
>    The Old Man And The Sea?
>

The old man kept thinking and talking about baseball.  When he'd get the
paper he'd want the baseball scores.   Also, a couple of real major
leaguers were mentioned -- I forget who, but I did look them up
in the Baseball Encyclopedia....

I'd have to pull out my copy to get specifics for you.


That was a GREAT story, btw, I literally could not put it down.....


fw

>      Hmmmm. I forgot all about that part. It's been twenty years since
>     I read it and that part obviously didn't make much of an impression
>     on me. What I remember most was his fight with the fish and what
>     happened afterwards.

Well, I read it immediately after a bunch of W.P. Kinsella short stories
that dealt with baseball, so I guess I was in that frame of mind.

The fight with the fish was CLASSIC, and of course, what happened on
the way in was something that just reached out and grabbed me....

Sometime later this year I'm going to pick up _A_Farewell_To_Arms and
read that.  But first, a friend recommended I read _Jane_Ayre_  (I know
I just misspelled that) so that's coming up sooner on the list....

But of course, _Jane_Ayre_ has nothing to do with baseball at all ;^)


'Saw

    Wasn't there a classic passage in the Old Man in which he went on about
    how none of them match up with DiMaggio?  Again, it's been a long
    while...
    
    glenn
    

actually I preferred Rebecca to Jane Eyre. Another book from that
era worth reading is Pride and Prejudice.

The Crazy Met

>actually I preferred Rebecca to Jane Eyre. Another book from that
>era worth reading is Pride and Prejudice.

If Rebecca is the one I'm thinking of (by Daphne DuMaurier?) I'm almost
ashamed to say that I've seen the movie, but never read the book.  The
movie was SUPERB, actually.

Same thing with _East_of_Eden_ by Steinbeck.  I saw the movie in freshman
english in HS and have never yet read the book, although it's sitting on 
the bookshelf right next to Kafka's _The_Metamorphesis_ .


Who wrote _Pride_and_Prejudice_?   I can't remember off the top of my
head..

'Saw

  ... and guys were complaining because we talked about figure skating in
the Olympics note.

  How about Wuthering Hights and Nancy Drew, I've heard tell that those are
pretty good reads as well although I'm not sure that the American League
gets mentioned all that often.

  George

>  How about Wuthering Hights and Nancy Drew, I've heard tell that those are
>pretty good reads as well although I'm not sure that the American League
>gets mentioned all that often.

Nancy Drew?   What's she got to do with any of the aforementioned?

I thought she hung out with the Hardy Boys -- which were good reads when
I was like 11.....

The Hardy Boys always reminded me of the Dean brothers.....


'Saw

    	I had to read Wuthering Heights back in high school.
    
    	Oldest daughter is reading it for a college class she's taking.
    
    	Just happened to tape the movie (Laurence Olivier and Merle
    	Oberon version) just the other day.
    
    	Dark love story about Catherine and Heathcliff.
    
    	I enjoyed the book. Might just read it again.
    
    	Scott

    In Jordan's defense, the other outfielders also dropped fly balls. 
    They had 25mph winds.

>    In Jordan's defense, the other outfielders also dropped fly balls. 
>    They had 25mph winds.
    
    This one looked pretty lame, though.  He was there to make the catch,
    went to the basket style, and the ball clanged off his mitt.  Jordan has
    all the tools to be a fine defensive player but it's not as easy as it
    looks, especially to be really good as opposed to just adequate.  If
    Jordan were ever to get serious time in a ML outfield this year (he
    won't) I think we'd see plenty more examples to refute Metz' theory that
    defense is an afterthought in baseball and that all you have to do is
    strap a glove on a good athlete and he'll be just fine (not that there
    haven't been plenty of other examples of that already...)
    
    glenn
      

The sad part is that if he'd just use the fundamentals he might be
okay in the outfield.   Why this basket sh*t?   Just catch it with
two hands.....


'Saw

    
    
    Whoa, get out the record books.  
    
    Somebody dropped a fly ball!!
    
    Has that ever been done? 
    
    Wisht I'd a seen it.
    
    Once in lifetime event, yessir.....
    
     

>    Somebody dropped a fly ball!!
>    
>    Has that ever been done? 
    
    I'm not sure, but I believe that there were news reports that John
    Elway dropped a few fly balls when he was a Yankee farmhand.  Other
    than that, not to my knowledge...
    
    glenn
    

    
    >Somebody dropped a fly ball!!
    
    >Has that ever been done?
    
    
    >> Other than that, not to my knowledge...
    
    
      Seriously?
    
    

Hey. fly balls are pretty small, and it's easy to drop 'em.  That's why
those good outfielders get so much money when they hang onto 'em....


'Saw_for_Jake....

    I think it's still strange seeing him in a baseball uniform.  He still
    looks like a hoopster (i.e., athlete) and we all know athletes don't
    play baseball.

He looks kind of gawky.

How tall is Jordan?  I don't believe I've ever seen a ball player over
6'6" tall -- there might have been a few, I'm just saying I've never
seen them.....

Anyway, he looks awfully gawky....


'Saw

    
>    I think it's still strange seeing him in a baseball uniform.  He still
>    looks like a hoopster (i.e., athlete) and we all know athletes don't
>    play baseball.
    
    Right now he looks pretty awkward in the baseball setting, actually.  
    It's that height.  A week or so ago they showed him shagging flies
    and on one he made a long run, caught the ball, then made a beautiful
    full-length dive with the ball already tucked away.  The rest of the
    Chisox rode him like a rented mule for the rest of the practice.  A
    couple of the little guys like Guillen and Cora were putting away routine
    pop-ups and then sprawling to the ground.  At least most of the players
    seem to be in pretty good spirits, and Jordan is able to laugh at
    himself (I really don't believe this is an ego-gratifying thing with him;
    he wants to give it a shot and have some fun).
    
    glenn
    

    Randy Johnson is 6' 10"  He's the one who caused Kruk to bail out
    at the all-star game.  Winfield's 6'6", right?
    

Yeah, someone mentioned pitcher's height in mail to me.

I can see a pitcher being that tall (probably generate a lot of power
I'd think) but I don't know of that many fielders taller than Winfield.

'Saw

�How tall is Jordan?  I don't believe I've ever seen a ball player over
�6'6" tall -- there might have been a few, I'm just saying I've never
�seen them.....
    
    Surely you've seen Randy Johnson and Dave Winfield.

>    Surely you've seen Randy Johnson and Dave Winfield.

Yeah, I have.

I knew Winfield was tall, but I didn't figure him over 6'6", which is
what he is....

Read a few more replies to get what I most recently said....


'Saw

    There's no point in comparing Jordan with pitchers unless he's going to
    try to be a pitcher-- the physical requirements to be a pitcher are so
    different than to be an everyday player that you might as well be
    talking about an athlete from a different sport.  And indeed, I read
    somewhere that the tallest everyday player in basebal history is 6'6",
    which is Dave Winfield, Frank Howard, and maybe one or two other
    short-timers, and that's it out of thousands of players.  It's not
    trivial; it's not impossible either but that kind of height is a
    disadvantage.
    
    glenn
    

    Right now, the Phillies have more 6'6" players than the 76ers do!
    
    BTW- They're all pitchers (the Phillies players, that is)
    
    Dennis Faust

>    Right now, the Phillies have more 6'6" players than the 76ers do!
>    
>    BTW- They're all pitchers (the Phillies players, that is)
    
    that's pretty funny.  Would probably win you some bar bets too.

    How tall is Mark McGwire?
    

I wasn't comparing Mikey to pitchers.

I guess my point was that, off-hand, I didn't know that many tall men
who play the field in baseball.

Winfield comes to mind, and I know Frank Howard was a big boy, but other
than pitchers I didn't know many.

Boog Powell was large.  Was he tall too?

Anyway... that was my point.....


'Saw

    
    
     Didn't Manute Bol play some left field back in...ohh, '88 or so?
    
    

    the phillies could put out a basketball team if they wanted too. and
    what a strretch that would be at first base...
    
                 stig

  Michael Jordan made a pretty impressive catch in the outfield yesterday. He
ran one down making a leaping catch in the gap just in front of the warning
track. I believe he's still looking for his 1st hit.

  I hope he hangs this up soon and goes back to the Bulls. It's great watching
him play basketball.

  George

>  I hope he hangs this up soon and goes back to the Bulls. It's great watching
>him play basketball.

We almost agree here George -- I'd rather watch him play hoops than
watch him play baseball....8^)



>  Michael Jordan made a pretty impressive catch in the outfield yesterday. He
>ran one down making a leaping catch in the gap just in front of the warning
>track. I believe he's still looking for his 1st hit.

Well, even *I* can make a great outfield catch once in a while....;^)

    I thought I heard he got an RBI the other day.

>             -< well at least he's making contact, that's a start >-

Nexted thing you know, he'll be gambling with those Space Aliens!

8^)


    

>           -< but then we'd find Elvis again and we don't want that >-

Good point, there Mike....  I never thought of that....

Unless the Aliens jettisoned Elvis above our atmosphere, in which case
he'd be a
	
	hunk-a-hunk-a re-entering burning love.....


;^)

    

Hey Chappy, if you're out there.......


	Does Jimmy Key still pitch for the Yanks?


'SAw

Key is still on the Yankees

The Crazy Met

    SI supposedly has Michael Jordan on the cover this week in baseball
    uniform with a title of something like "Give it Up, Mike".  Somewhat 
    hypocritical of SI since they have used every, and I mean every, 
    opportunity to put Mike on the cover to sell that magazine, including 
    Michael trying to play golf, Michael selling Nikes, Michael paying off 
    gambling debts, etc.  The guy's got to have been on there at least 
    25 times.
    
    Jordan's making some contact in these early games, but again, swinging
    defensively to just make contact and hitting nothing but weak grounders 
    and popups is not as difficult as it might seem, except maybe against 
    the hardest throwers.  Even the RBI sac fly was a pop-up to short CF 
    that was, er, dropped by someone not named Michael Jordan.  At this 
    stage I think you'd rather see him even striking out more if he'd 
    show just a little pop in the bat; apparently there is none.  What 
    you're seeing is the equivalent of a talented high school player 
    trying to step in against big leaguers.  This will be a joke even if 
    it continues into the high minor leagues.
    
    glenn
    

>    trying to step in against big leaguers.  This will be a joke even if 
>    it continues into the high minor leagues.
    
The sad part is that until Jordan says "I give up", the Chicago front
office will keep him there, probably at AAA level, mainly becuase his
mere presence will put asses in the bleachers....

'Saw    

but that still would not justify putting him on the cover so many times
for non-athletic stuff (gambling, Nike, baseball-atheletic, but not best
at it).

The Crazy Met

    
>     If they really feel that he ought to
>     hang it up, they'd be wrong *not to* say so.
 
    Oh, I agree, I just don't think that it's worthy of a cover story,
    except by the standard of what sells the magazine (I understand *why*
    they're doing it).  As a sports story, I don't think it's advanced to
    that level.  Where the hypocrisy comes in (in my opinion) is not that 
    SI might be mildly critical of Jordan, but rather that they've always
    marketed themselves as the serious sports magazine, serious about not
    only sports but even societal issues including obvious commercialism
    and hype.  With Jordan they've always been major contributors to that.
    As a reader, I think the standards of the magazine have slipped in the 
    last 5 years or so, but that's another issue I guess.
    
    glenn
    

RE                      <<< Note 7.504 by NAC::G_WAUGAMAN >>>

>Where the hypocrisy comes in (in my opinion) is not that 
>    SI might be mildly critical of Jordan, but rather that they've always
>    marketed themselves as the serious sports magazine, serious about not
>    only sports but even societal issues including obvious commercialism
>    and hype.  

  Whooo glenn, get a grip. This is the magazine that gives us the swim suit
issue each year.

  Talk about commercialism and hype, do you really suppose that they are
concerned that female sports fans should understand all the latest fashions
before going on winter vacation? 

  Don't get me wrong, I don't object, but there's one and only one reason for
us seeing Kathy and Christie splashing through the Pacific each winter and it
has nothing to do with serious commentary on sport or societal issues. 

  George 

exactly Tommy, so it is not solely because:

> he was universally acknowledged as the best athlete of his time.

The Crazy Met

�  Don't get me wrong, I don't object, but there's one and only one reason for
�us seeing Kathy and Christie splashing through the Pacific each winter and it
�has nothing to do with serious commentary on sport or societal issues. 
    
    Right -- those writers, editors and publishers need to kick back once a
    year so they can get a fresh start on those sports and societal issues.

    I have a grip, George.  I didn't say that I have ever thought that SI was
    a shining beacon of virtue in an otherwise vile and dirty sports world.
    I just said that I thought it was "somewhat hypocritical" for SI to
    capitalize on the hype surrounding Michael Jordan, especially if
    they're going to criticize Jordan himself for doing so in the article 
    (I don't know that they will, it seems to be implied from the cover, 
    though).  I'm not going to go out and kill myself over it or anything...
    
    glenn
    

  I didn't see the article, was SI criticizing Jordan for capitalizing on the
hype or were they just talking about it? 

  If they were criticizing Jordan, then yes that is hypocrisy since they
capitalize on hype all the time. If they were just talking about it, saying
that he was doing it and giving the details, then it's just an attempt at
passing on information. 

  George 

they could also talk about it and state that they think Jordan should
give it up because he does not have the necessary skills to play 
Major League Baseball. They can criticize him based on what he has done
on the field and not for the hype.

The Crazy Met

    Glenn,
    	I agree that over and above all the "societal issues" that SI
    writing has slipped.  And I think it is as much an editor/publisher
    approach issue as writer quality.
    
    	Root problem is probably that they have found that top-notch sports
    journalism doesn't make the profit for them that catering to latest
    commercial trends does.
    
    Bill

> They can criticize him based on what he has done
> on the field and not for the hype.
   
    From my vantage point what Jordan is doing on the field and the hype
    are pretty much inseparable.  No one believes that he is out there
    because there was ever the remotest of chances that major-league
    baseball abilities would suddenly come to light.  Is SI really doing a
    cover story so that they can give a point-by-point critical analysis of
    Jordan's baseball skills?  Let's be serious.  They've got Michael
    Jordan in a ML baseball uniform and they may never have that chance
    again.  I was just kind of surprised to see a rather harsh byline like 
    "Hang it Up, Michael" being used to plug what will undoubtedly be a
    nice little puff piece.  If any words like "sanctity" or "purity"
    get used in there I'll make sure I report back... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    Jordan even met with the players and assured them he wasn't there to 
    take away their jobs.

>                        -< so why IS he there then? >-
    
    Prob'ly so that Sir Charles wouldn't be the first...
    

>                 -< You know, the undisputed king of hype... >-
    
    yeah he needs to focus more attention on his job before he loses the
    respect of those that have to defend him during games.

On our sports here last night, they played a clip from the Yankees-White Sox
game on MSG that Trautwig and Kubek called.

Kubek launched into a real commentary on why he felt Jordan shouldn't even
be there.  He and Trautwig actually had words over it, on the air.

Time didn't permit them to play the whole thing, but you could tell that
Kubek was pretty passionate about it....


'Saw

PS  I still think it's to put asses in the bleachers. 8^)

 Perhaps the Chicago brass are hoping that Michael fails so miserable that
 his ego will force him back to basketball to prove he's still the greatest.

 Me, I'd love nothing better than to see him make as a baseball player. Man
 the price on crow would sky-rocket.....

 ;^)

    The SI cover actually reads "Bag It, Michael".  Judging from his
    response in a clip I saw, it is critical of him, as I suspected. 
    
    Michael himself summed it all up pretty well for me with his quote of 
    "I think everybody should get this opportunity... I think anybody to 
    come in off the street who knows Jerry Reinsdorf should have this
    chance."  That pretty much says it all.
    
    glenn
    

�                         -< so why IS he there then? >-
    
    To have a good time?
    
    To see if he could really do it?
    
    To fulfill a childhood dream?
    
    To tick people off that would normally have to pay out of their own
    pocket to attend a Fantasy Camp with a bunch of other MLB Wannabes and
    old timers?

    
    Those are all good questions from Jordan's end, Mac.  I don't blame
    Jordan for doing what he can get away with.  How about the questions
    from the White Sox' end?  I'll bet they don't come out sounding so 
    altruistic.  Not unless you've read too many of Saw's Gil Thorpe comic
    strips... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

>    
>     Here's a kookie idea: why don't people wait and see what the
>     SI article actually says and then post an opinion?
>

That's a great idea.  We're all just acting loopey (to steal a phrase
from Dave) and we should be kookey like Tommy says.

So, someone read that mag!

'Saw

    Free publicity?  Appease Michael?  Versatile batting practice dummy?
    
    		-or-
    
    To show the youth of America what is really possible if you just put
    your mind to it ("gee, dad, if Michael's willing to give baseball a
    shot, I'll try to do better on my homework")?  To save the dying game 
    of baseball with the occasional infield hit?  To steal away Nancy
    Kerrigan's *undeserved* attention?
    
    glenn
        

>    To show the youth of America what is really possible if you just put
>    your mind to it ("gee, dad, if Michael's willing to give baseball a
>    shot, I'll try to do better on my homework")?  To save the dying game 
>    of baseball with the occasional infield hit?  To steal away Nancy
>    Kerrigan's *undeserved* attention?
    
Minor nit....

It's the kid's step-dad.  The kid's real Dad died in Desert Storm shielding
the rest of his platoon from a hand-grenade, with his body, and won the
DSC for it.


hth,
'Saw

    >> Free publicity? 
    >
    >   There's a crime. Let's string the bastards up.
    
    Well, at least you show a remarkable consistency on what does and 
    doesn't merit publicity, and what is and isn't worth whining about.  
    Let the public decide, sometimes.
    
    I'll admit that I have an agenda as far as Jerry Reinsdorf is
    concerned.  Hell, I like Jordan, but Reinsdorf is one of the worst
    owners in baseball.  Blackmail the politicians to get his stadium and 
    perks, toss out the commissioner when he threatens personal interests,
    alienate the players, pander to the media and the publicists at every 
    opportunity; the guy has done it all and in my opinion represents all 
    the worst things in sports franchise ownership.  If the bond of 
    friendship with Reinsdorf is among the reasons for this I'm not
    impressed.
    
    glenn
    

>On our sports here last night, they played a clip from the Yankees-White Sox
>game on MSG that Trautwig and Kubek called.
    
    yeah we heard it hear too.  

    Jerry Reinsdorf is cool.  He's on the newly-formed MLB expansion
    committee and will get his buddy, Jerry Colangelo, a franchise.

    
> The whole story
> was a big soap opera - the bitch queen vs. the dim bulb. Big difference.
  
    I agree that it was pure soap opera, at least until the competition.  
    I just think that the Jordan story is almost at that point.  It looks 
    to me that the answer to whether the guy can play baseball at a ML 
    or even a minor-league level (if there even was a question for some) 
    has become obvious.  Now the fun starts.  What does Jordan want?  What
    will Reinsdorf give him?  Where do *you* draw the line? (Rhetorical; I 
    know you've said that he could be carried by the team forever; I 
    respectfully disagree, and consider that to be total soap opera-- a 
    player carried based only on personality and star appeal.)  

    You mock "purity"; I call it "quality", in any sport, where at least for 
    my entertainment value it's a fundamental requirement that the players
    in competition are "qualified" and are playing the game to win.  If that's 
    not a requirement for others, if a show-biz presentation is enough,
    that's fine...
                                                
 >> I'll admit that I have an agenda as far as Jerry Reinsdorf is
 >> concerned.  Hell, I like Jordan, but Reinsdorf is one of the worst
 >> owners in baseball...
 >
 >   This all sounds like it's on a par with the big to do you made about
 >   Phoenix fans missing ten games - much ado about nothing, an excuse to
 >   get all wound up and climb up on a soapbox and vent. If Reinsdorf wants 
 >   to flex his muscles so be it - he's got them.
    
    That's a legitimate difference of opinion.  "Business is business,
    that's all that matters" is one viewpoint.  I can accept that.  I had 
    thought that in some instances that you had felt differently about it,
    especially where private franchise business intersects with public
    interests (as it has with Reinsdorf in the past).
          
    glenn
             

    
>    Michael isn't going to play. At least not unless the game is a laugher.
>    If I were the Chisox manager, with a contending team, I'd resign in
>    protest before I'd play Mike. No one but none is getting hurt here which 
>    is why I don'tunderstand all of the fuss.
    
    Okay, we're not in major disagreement.  I'd even extend it to AA or
    AAA play based on what I've seen, which is also legitimate professional
    competition.  Yeah, as you get further down there is more gray area
    where development goals totally dwarf competitive ones, and it's no big
    deal, even for a 31-year-old if his motives are good (I think they'd
    have to be for Jordan to accept playing ball in South Bend IN...)  
    
>    Don't kill the owner - change the rules - because that's the only way
>    you'll stop owners from holding cities up, playing one city against 
>    another and abusing fan loyalty. I think you have to go on the ass-
>    umption that these guys are acting out of self-interest. It shouldn't 
>    shock anyone when greedhead owners behave like greedhead owners.
    
    There's even less disagreement here.  Maybe you're a little more
    philosophical and less passionate about the realities here, but at the 
    same time if you don't like what some of these guys are getting away with, 
    then the problem and the beneficiary are almost the same (I still 
    don't think it "whining" or "getting up on a soapbox").  The fact is that 
    Jerry Reinsdorf, even relative to the other baseball owners, has abused
    fan loyalty.  Not everybody has held a 90-year-old franchise circling
    over St. Pete until the state legislature bent over... 
    
    glenn
    

>    fan loyalty.  Not everybody has held a 90-year-old franchise circling
>    over St. Pete until the state legislature bent over... 
    
There seems to be a history of butt-headed ownership with that franchise....


'Saw    

  I don't think the Michael Jordan side show is all that big a deal. Baseball
survived the Black Sox scandal, strikes, lockouts, and many things much worse
than this. 

  I remember once predicting that the last lockout would be forgotten by the
end of the season and it was. I'll now predict that by July if you remind the
average baseball fan about this you'll get something like "Oh yeah, Jordan did
try his hand at baseball didn't he, was that last year or the year before?" 

  No big deal,
  George

    Boston Globe columnist Bob Ryan predicted this AM that Michael Jordan
    would make the Chicago White Sox team out of Spring Training.  Ryan
    contended that the Sox are looking for any opportunity or reason to keep
    him.
    
    According to Ryan, statistics show that the 25th man on any MLB roster
    is capable of putting up the same (non?)numbers as Jordan. So, why not
    keep him?  He won't hurt the team, and he'll sell tickets. Something no
    other 25th man in baseball can do.
    
    /joe

>    Boston Globe columnist Bob Ryan predicted this AM that Michael Jordan
>    would make the Chicago White Sox team out of Spring Training.  Ryan
>    contended that the Sox are looking for any opportunity or reason to keep
>    him.
    
    Hmmmm, interesting.  This wasn't in my edition.  Did Ryan cite some
    reasons why he believes this or is he just guessing?  I hadn't 
    previously heard any indication of which direction the Chicago 
    braintrust was leaning.
    
    Needless to say, if it happens, I think it's a ridiculous joke.  If 
    the Chisox carry the normal 14 position players they have only 5 
    reserves, 4 non-catchers, and on most teams (including the Chisox, 
    who are not Murderer's Row on offense) that 25th man means something, 
    especially if it's an OF because that man is a primary pinchhitter.  
    Use of statistics to show how poorly other 25th men have done in 
    limited samples is pretty specious on Ryan's part, which is unusual 
    for him.  On the Chisox Jordan most likely displaces Warren Newson, who
    was a .300 hitter in limited action last year and a legit big-league LH
    swinger.
    
    glenn
    

  I still say big deal. Most likely if he plays it would only be for a few
weeks while the teams are not playing every day due to being rained or snowed
out on occasion. Let him freeze his butt while the real 25th guy gets some
playing time in AAA. 

  The White Sox figure to be a contender this year. They are not likely to risk
losing that by carrying Jordan too long. By letting him play for a couple weeks
they keep him happy which means he's more likely to return to the Bulls and
they bring in the fans during the cold weeks.

  As soon as it looks like it's going to be a problem they can tell him "Ok
Michael, we gave it a try now do you want to play in the minors or do you want
to talk more about sailing on our American Cup yacht.".

  This is really much ado about nothing. A few months from now no one will
remember that it happened.

  George

>they keep him happy which means he's more likely to return to the Bulls and

This is one of the biggest non sequitars you've ever come out with in your
short tenure here in sports.



>  This is really much ado about nothing. A few months from now no one will
>remember that it happened.

I doubt that very much.  There's few things about Michael Jordan folks
don't remember.

If people still remember and talk about Ed "Too Tall" Jones abortive 
boxing career (and Jones was hardly in Jordan's league) then folks will
remember Jordan's rather inept (so far) attempt at baseball.....


'Saw

RE        <<< Note 7.541 by CAMONE::WAY "Fire at will!....(Will who?)" >>>

>>they keep him happy which means he's more likely to return to the Bulls and
>
>This is one of the biggest non sequitars you've ever come out with in your
>short tenure here in sports.

  Doesn't the owner of the Bulls also own the White Sox? If so, then this
is obviously an attempt to keep Jordan happy so when ... excuse me if ...
he returns to basketball he won't be pissed off at the management and ask
to go somewhere else.

>>  This is really much ado about nothing. A few months from now no one will
>>remember that it happened.
>
>I doubt that very much.  There's few things about Michael Jordan folks
>don't remember.

  They won't remember the details. Only the small vocal group of easily worked
up sports fans give a rip about it now beyond the novelty level and most of
them will be on to flaming about something else within weeks of him hanging up
his spikes. 

  By late summer it will be in the "oh yeah" category and by next year it will
be a trivia question. Almost no one will care all that much about this once he
moves on to sailboats, tennis, or whatever else he tries before going back to
basketball ... uh excuse me again ... if he goes back to basketball. 

  George 

Where did Ryan come up with those numbers? At the most basic level 
Ryan does not have numbers for how Jordan has perfomed to even do
a comparison with.

The Crazy Met

>  Doesn't the owner of the Bulls also own the White Sox? If so, then this
>is obviously an attempt to keep Jordan happy so when ... excuse me if ...
>he returns to basketball he won't be pissed off at the management and ask
>to go somewhere else.

Why are you so sure he's going back to basketball?  Or is that just one
of the George Intangibles?


>  They won't remember the details. Only the small vocal group of easily worked
>up sports fans give a rip about it now beyond the novelty level and most of
>them will be on to flaming about something else within weeks of him hanging up
>his spikes. 

Hey, if it's so unpalatable here for you.........


>  By late summer it will be in the "oh yeah" category and by next year it will
>be a trivia question. Almost no one will care all that much about this once he
>moves on to sailboats, tennis, or whatever else he tries before going back to
>basketball ... uh excuse me again ... if he goes back to basketball. 

I doubt that very much.  

If you mean details like how many at bats, or how many strikeouts, or
chances in the fields, yeah, folks probably won't remember that, unless
they are stats freaks.

But, folks will remember that the (arguably) greatest athlete of the time
tried to play baseball and came up short, in a somewhat embarassing failure,
just as they remember Ed "Too Tall" Jones attempting to Box, Chuck Connors
playing baseball and hoops, and Bill Veeck signing a midget....


'Saw

RE        <<< Note 7.544 by CAMONE::WAY "Fire at will!....(Will who?)" >>>

>Why are you so sure he's going back to basketball?  Or is that just one
>of the George Intangibles?

  I believe it's just a mater of time. I guess we'll just have to wait to see
which one of us is right. In any case, if it's the same owner, then I'm sure
that he's going along with this just in case Jordan does decide to return to
the court. 

>Hey, if it's so unpalatable here for you.........

  Hey, I never complained about my palate. I'm talking about all the guys who
normally call in to sports programs on the radio getting worked up about things
that most people hardly even notice. They may be flaming about Jordan now but
by summer they'll be flaming about something else and none of them will go out
of their way to mention this unless they are answering a trivia question to
try to win a trip to Hawaii.

>But, folks will remember that the (arguably) greatest athlete of the time
>tried to play baseball and came up short, in a somewhat embarassing failure,
>just as they remember Ed "Too Tall" Jones attempting to Box, Chuck Connors
>playing baseball and hoops, and Bill Veeck signing a midget....

  I haven't heard anyone talk about Ed "Too Tall" Jones for years. In any case,
once Jordan goes back to the Bulls people will remember him for how his come
back goes, not for his attempt at baseball.

  George

    George, there's no way to predict when or whether Jordan's presence 
    will "look like it's going to be a problem".  It's not cliche but fact 
    that an April game counts as much as a September game.  Baseball 
    doesn't allow free substitution, and in fact what you do or don't have 
    on the bench often decides a game.  I can't agree with such a 
    categorical conclusion on how this would play out if it were allowed to.

    There's little *practical* difference that I can see between knowingly 
    carrying a player much less qualified than an alternative (and where
    there's no tradeoff against future gain-- and I don't mean for another 
    team run by the same damned owner!) and losing a game because of it, 
    and losing a game because you threw it outright.  Hey, no big deal, 
    it's one game and it won't likely affect the pennant race.  No argument
    there.  Like I said before, I don't care about the financial or PR 
    benefits when you've gotten to this point; you're messing with the 
    essence of sport: honest competition.  It may have happened before, 
    and sure, baseball can probably survive almost anything up to and 
    including the bankruptcy of MLB, Inc. (that's irrelevant), but I still 
    don't want to see the actual competition messed with.
    
    glenn
     

>  I haven't heard anyone talk about Ed "Too Tall" Jones for years. In any case,
>once Jordan goes back to the Bulls people will remember him for how his come
>back goes, not for his attempt at baseball.

I have.

RE                      <<< Note 7.546 by NAC::G_WAUGAMAN >>>

>    George, there's no way to predict when or whether Jordan's presence 
>    will "look like it's going to be a problem".  It's not cliche but fact 
>    that an April game counts as much as a September game.  

  That's true, but in April in Chicago the weather is pretty awful, the
schedule relatively light and they miss a fair share of games. As a result
they don't need as many guys as they do in August when they are scheduled
to play 6 days a week with double headers and make up games.

  It's not at all clear that the real 25th guy will be better off in April
freezing at the end of the bench in Comsky rather than starting in AAA. And
if you can make Jordan happy by letting him play while putting a few extra
fans in the seats during the cold weeks it's not at all clear that you are
hurting yourself all that much.

  I don't think they will lose a single game because of Jordan,
  George

Then again the White Sox could end up in a number of long extra-inning games
in April and who is on the bench becomes a critical factor.

The Crazy Met

RE               <<< Note 7.549 by METSNY::francus "Mets in '94" >>>

>Then again the White Sox could end up in a number of long extra-inning games
>in April and who is on the bench becomes a critical factor.

  Yes, a calculate risk, but not very likely.

  And it's possible that the extra money they make from people buying tickets
in April may help them sign a free agent next year but that's not very likely
either.

  What is likely is that it will have no impact,
  George

    Ryan's comments about Jordan & the contributions of the 25th man at the
    end of the bench were made on the radio this AM.  He calls in every
    Thursday am to a local Boston FM station.

    
    
     I'm of the mindset that given that Jordan just hasn't had enough 
    time yet.
    
     The expectation is that he'll step right and start hammerin' 
    the ball, going 3-4 each time out.
     
     He seems to have the natural ability, he just needs to develop
    them.
    
     If everybody that went 0-4 against Rick Sutcliffe quit the game,
    there wouldn't be anybody left to play the game.
    
    
     

    The problem is that he's wasting their time learning things now that he
    should've learned in high school.

      <<< Note 7.553 by FRETZ::HEISER "impeach the President and her
    husband" >>>
    
        The problem is that he's wasting their time learning things now
    that he
        should've learned in high school.
    
    
    Nah, Legion yes but around hear high school isn't where much is
    learned.  Maybe I'm out of date again but most high school players have
    learned all they need by age 14.  Unless h.s. coaching today actually
    is trying to teach kids something.
    
    'Saw
    
    >But, folks will remember that the (arguably) greatest athlete of the time
    
    Jim Thorpe?
    
    >just as they remember Ed "Too Tall" Jones attempting to Box, Chuck Connors 
    >                                                             ^^^^^ ^^^^^
    >playing baseball and hoops, and Bill Veeck signing a midget....
    
    Chuck was a genuine athlete who turned to acting which he wan'twasn't
    necessarily better at but better paid at.  Bill Sharman of Celtic's
    rafter fame was in baseball about that time.[EOB]
     

This is the real deal folks a person that holds a autographed Jordan
White Sox rookie card will have something of great value and the set 
with the Fleer rookie Bulls card will command top dollar in the ever 
increasing card show swap meets. 

It's a ploy to get the people in Florida away from the MTV bikini waxing
parties and over to the White Sox vs. Whoever in the grapefruit league during 
spring break. 

Jeff  

>    Chuck was a genuine athlete who turned to acting which he wan'twasn't
>    necessarily better at but better paid at.  Bill Sharman of Celtic's

>                            -< porno ain't actin' >-

You've seen that one too?

    The SI Jordan article is indeed a complete rip job.  First installment 
    of "Bag It Michael", "Jordan and the White Sox Are Embarrassing Baseball",
    "Err Jordan":
    
    "To hear the crowd cheer every step that number 45 takes on a baseball
    field or to watch the fans walk around in their Air Jordan apparel
    purchased from the special Nike van at Ed Smith Stadium is to instantly
    understand why the White Sox are letting Jordan do this.  So shame on
    them for their cynical manipulation of the public.  And shame on them
    for feeding Michael's matchbook-cover delusion-- become a major leaguer
    in just six weeks!"
    
    
    There's a bunch more from scouts, etc., describing just how bad Jordan
    is on a baseball field, especially at bat ("They are right about one
    thing: he will never, ever hit. 'It's called bat speed-- and he ain't 
    got it'") but also in the field.  This is the stuff I was more 
    interested in reading, the actual non-White Sox scouting assessments of 
    what Jordan possibly could have become if he were about 10 years younger.  
    It's not pretty.  As I've read before, the guy was a .280 hitter in his
    last year in high school and there was no, none, zero interest in him
    as a potential college player and two-sport athlete.  There's nothing
    unseen or anything that we might be missing here.  It's a complete hoax.
    
    glenn
    

    Glenn:
    
    Thanks for the summary. SI is right on target. 

    I've read the article as well.  While the Chicago media refers to the 
    article as "scathing" I would call it brutally honest.  The author
    writes it the way things are and how ridiculous the situation is.  
    
    As more and more players are coming out with negative comments, today
    it's reported that several Sox prospects are upset with the situation.
    
    Even the Chicago media, which will look for anything positive Michael 
    does (Michael took that walk nicely) on the field, has started to turn
    a little.  Today's paper talked about his first AB yesterday vs.
    Nabholtz as being the worst of the spring.  He took a called strike,
    then "feebly" swung and missed at the next two.  
    
    Good morning, good afternoon, good night.  
    
    Other managers are feeling sorry for Lamont now and what he has to put
    up with.  It's funny, the catch box on the back page says MJ will
    "probably not" make the final roster.
    
    Probably not?  Probably not??? PROBABLY NOT?????
    
    Bah haaa haaaaa!
    
    
    Spud
    

  Well he was entitled to a try I won't fault him for that, but if he's that
bad then the White Sox should not put him on the team. And they probably won't
if they have any sense, any added ticket sales would be negated by the bad
press this seems to be generating. 

  I agree, however, with the statement made earlier that SI is being a bit
hypocritical. If they are going to do their swim suit issue as a publicity
gimmick they shouldn't criticize the White Sox for their publicity gimmick.

  He's had his shot, it's time for him to move on to tennis, sail boats,
ballet, or what ever else he feels he needs to try before going back to
basketball where he belongs. 

  George

>    Probably not?  Probably not??? PROBABLY NOT?????
    
    No one seems to be really certain of what Reindorf's intentions are,
    and Reinsdorf is the boss.  It sounds like the coaches are downplaying
    it but Lamont won't come out and say that he's been given complete
    autonomy on the decision.  So who knows?
    
    glenn
    

    Jordan is already contemplating a new career in Women's figure skating.
    Look out Tonya! He will do the first quadrupal lutz. Robin Williams
    will donate the warddrobe.
    
    Film at 12:35 -after Letterman.

    I'll say this for Michael, though, that judging from a Peter Gammons'
    article (and other sources) on how generally well-liked he is by the
    White Sox coaches and players, it makes you wonder about his supposed
    problems with Grant and Pippen and most of that other "Jordan Rules" 
    crap.  Not that I thought that book was anything but your usual cheap
    journalistic trash job anyway, and of course in Jordan's absence some
    of those Bulls players have gone on to cover themselves in shame just 
    the same.  Baseball *players* get a bit of an image boost out of all 
    of this.  Jordan showers them with praise and the favor is returned,
    and in the public eye the average ballplayer chumming with regular-guy
    Michael contradicts this negative but fallacious image of baseball
    players as a inferior breed of humans apart from other athletes.
    
    glenn
    

    I liked the movie
    
    Jimbo

Tommy,

	Look at the play for the interaction between the characters
	and the life experiences they are going through.  Baseball
	is just the body that holds the soul of the play, as it
	were....




Personally, I like baseball.  I like all the aspects of the game (except
for plastic turf and the DH).  For some folks there *IS* something
mystical about the game, if only for the fact that it intertwines with
a lot more American history than many other games do, and serves as
a commonality between generations.  (I think that hoops has moved into
that arena now too).

But, I know you don't.  Hope you have a good time at the play, though.


'Saw

    
>     "I bought tickets to 'Bang The Drum Slowly', she says. "I 
>     don't even like baseball", I think to myself but don't have 
>     the heart to tell her.
    
    Hold onto that one, Tommy.  If that's what you're talking about; you
    may have lost me somewhere...
    

    "The point wasn't about *me*, the point was respect for baseball and
    the athletes who play it.  Believe me, I understand.  This has been
    very hard at times, because I'm not built for baseball.  People who
    DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT [emphasis added-- ed. ;-)] equate
    bodies with athleticism.  Sure, there are guys here that don't look
    like athletes, but they are... Look at baseball players.  Their fingers
    are strong.  Their hands.  Their arms are like bricklayers... my hands
    and my arms and my legs are so tired some nights..."
    
    --Nancy Kerrigan (just kidding, Michael Jordan)
    
    
    glenn
    

>    
>      I read that. He may as well have *been* calling bricklayers
>     athletes.
>

I know some bricklayers.  Personally, I call them whatever they want me
to call them.....

'Saw

|  >> Look at the play for the interaction between the characters
|  >> and the life experiences they are going through.
|
|     Duh, really? So I should leave my scorebook at home?

Hey, I was just trying to be helpful.  Didn't mean to insult you.



|  >> Baseball is just the body that holds the soul of the play, as 
|  >> it	were....
|
|     This is exactly the type of thing that I'm talking about.
    

Yeah, but you can say that about any place.  "Street Car Named Desire"
could be set anywhere (well, except maybe Alaska) and still be a 
great play.   "Much Ado About Nothing" is often set in different times
and different places (and I think it's kind of neat to see how they
do it), and is still a lot of fun to watch.

"Bang the Drum Slowly" is about a guy who's dying.  It could be
about football ("Brian's Song") or about Basketball ("The Dallas Mavericks
1993-1994) or even about rugby ("I'll Bash Your Head in You Bloody Twit")

So concentrate on the dying part and not the baseball ;^)

Or, do what I do when I'm at a horrendously boring thing that a date has
dragged me to:  a) learn to sleep with your eyes open b) blow in her
ear every five minutes or c) feign an attack of diarrhea


Hope all this helps...

fw

    hey Tommy, you trying to show us today that you reall didn't mean what
    you said about Glenn lasted night??
    
    :-)
    
    The Crazy Met
    

>> Hold onto that one, Tommy.  If that's what you're talking about; you
>> may have lost me somewhere...
>   
>    Stay lost, Waugaman. Baseball is boring and depressing enough.
    
    I meant "hold onto that girl", if that's indeed who bought the tickets.
    I didn't mean to imply that your girlfriend could be more boring and 
    depressing than baseball... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

�"Bang the Drum Slowly" is about a guy who's dying.  It could be
�about football ("Brian's Song") or about Basketball ("The Dallas Mavericks

Bang the Drun Slowly = baseball/life story with semi-beleivable characters.

Brian's Song = the mother of all Cindy movies

    
>>      I read that. He may as well have *been* calling bricklayers
>>     athletes.
>
> I know some bricklayers.  Personally, I call them whatever they want me
> to call them.....
  
    One of the guys vying for the Red Sox' fifth starter spot, Tim
    Vanegmond, is a bricklayer (spent last year in New Britain, and has
    pitched very well so far this spring).  From the looks of his gangly 
    body, he hasn't laid too many bricks in his career.  But at least if 
    he doesn't make it, he'll have an athletic career acceptable to Michael
    Jordan to fall back on...
    
    glenn
    

>             -< I liked the Gene Krupa piece in Maddog and Glory >-


Gene Krupa ROOLZ.....
    

    Jordan got his first hit of spring training (a grounder down the third
    base line) and stole a base.  Latest word that I've read is he will be
    assigned to the minor league camp when the White Sox make their cuts
    this week.

    Heard this one yesterday:
    
           How do you convince Michael Jordan into quitting baseball?
    
                       
    
          Kill his mother!

	re 7.585:

	Wow!  Mike, you are going to find yourself labeled a sadistic
	slob with no feelings (kinda like JaKe) if you keep that up.


	billl

    Aw shucks Billl.....tweren't nuthin'!
    
    

Path: pa.dec.com!decwrl!wupost!looking!bass!clarinews
From: [email protected] (AP)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.baseball
Subject: Playoff Home-Field Edges Named
Copyright: 1994 by The Associated Press, R
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 94 16:40:14 PST
Approved: [email protected]
 
	NEW YORK (AP) -- The winners of the AL East and Central divisions
will have the home-field advantage in the new round of playoffs
this year, as will the winners of the NL Central and West.
	Under the agreement signed Thursday between the players' union
and the owners' Player Relations Committee, the AL East and NL West
winners will have the home advantage in the League Championship
Series if they advance that far. If a wild-card team wins in the
first round, the home field for the LCS would switch to the winner
of the other series.
	While no tiebreakers would be used to determine which teams
advance to the playoffs, tiebreakers would be used to determine
home-field advantages.
	``We didn't want a wild-card team to have the home field against
a division champion,'' said Eugene Orza, associate general counsel
of the Major League Baseball Players Association.
	Milwaukee Brewers president Bud Selig, chairman of the ruling
executive council, said he didn't think the new system was too
complicated.
	``It's worked out great in the other sports,'' he said. ``I
remember last year, when the Green Bay Packers were in it, it was
so complicated I had no clue what they were talking about. But
everyone was excited about it.''
	The new system was necessitated by the clubs' decision last
September to double the number of teams in the postseason to eight
this season. While the teams agreed Jan. 19 to the union's demand
for 80 percent of the ticket money from the first three games of
each new series, it took two months to put the deal in writing and
determine the complex series of details on how the playoffs will
work. The agreement must be ratified by the players, which is
expected to take place shortly.
	The rules eliminate playoff games for first place in a division
if the second-place team will qualify for the postseason anyway as
the wild card. In that event, the tiebreakers would be:
	--1. head-to-head record.
	--2. winning percentage in intradivisional games.
	--3. winning percentage in the second half of the season.
	If teams are still tied, the home field would go the team with
the better winning percentage over the last 82 games. If that
doesn't break a tie, it would be over the last 83 games and so on.
	In the event of ties which determine which teams advance to the
postseason, playoff games would be held in the current manner, with
home fields determined by coin flips for two-way ties and drawings
of lots for three- and four-way ties.
	If there is a tie for first in one division and a second-place
team in another division has the identical record, the two teams
tied for first will play to determine which advances to the
postseason.
	If second-place teams are tied for wild-card spots, playoff
games would be used to break those ties.

    
      Doesn't it make more sense to give home field advantage to
    the two division leaders with the best records?? (ala football)
    What if two teams win 105 games (Philly + San Fran) and Houston
    wins the central with 90 wins. That doesn't seem right that Houston 
    would get home field; does it?
    
    
                                  Clark C.

  Major league baseball has never had a tradition of giving home field to the
team with the better record. They have always alternated from year to year.

  In the World Series, the NL has home field advantage in even numbered years
and the AL has home field advantage in odd numbered years. The ALCS and NLCS
have also been alternating between the East and West of each league respectively
since they started.

  So it would seem that they decided to pattern it after their own tradition
rather than using the better record as it's done in the other sports.

  George

    Any scores from today?
    
    NAZZ

Yankees 5-1 in the  5th?
Mets 9-5 in the 5th (wind blowing out at Wrigley)

The Crazy Met

    Re: Mets 9-5 in the 5th (wind blowing out at Wrigley)
    There is a 40 MPH wind blowing IN at Wrigley!
    
    Murph
    

                                                    -< Unbelievable, eh,
    TCM? >-
    
        Re: Mets 9-5 in the 5th (wind blowing out at Wrigley)
        There is a 40 MPH wind blowing IN at Wrigley!
    
        Murph
    
    Cuz the game is at Shea...
    
    Murph
    

nope, Mets home opener is next Monday; sorry bub game is at Wrigely

The Crazy Met

    You're right, my buddies smoked me on this one. Told me we had openers
    for middle of next week...
    
    Murph
    
    Hillary is helping Harry, apparently.
    
    

>  Hillary is helping Harry, apparently.
    
Don't make REK jealous :-)

The Crazy Met

    I know we had realignment this year, but I didn't think the Mets and
    the Cubs moved to the AL.

re: .598

Folks, that is true GENIUS at work. What a mind!

The Crazy Met

    Lots of close ones in both leagues thus far.  BoSox win 9-8, Cleveland
    beat Seattle 4-3 in 11, a few NL games are tied in the bottom of the
    9th as well.

    Didch see Hillary-Babe lead the Cubbie Fans in "Take me out to the
    ballgame"?....  What a born leader!!!!!
    
    REK
    
    I'd play home-run-derby with her *ANYTIME*!!!

    you mean Hitlary.

        Bo Jackson cracked a bat over his right knee after wiffing big time
	yesterday.  I can see all the little leaguers now trying to imitate
	Bo and busting their legs with them damn aluminum bats.


	billl

�                           -< a new trend starting >-
�
�        Bo Jackson cracked a bat over his right knee after wiffing big time
�	yesterday.  
    
    Hey, billl.  Have you been getting your news via Phoenix lately?  Bo
    ain't the first to break his bat over his knee. 

    Has anyone noticed that the early season baseball schedule has...
    
       ...some warm weather clubs opening in cold weather cities
       ...teams like Florida and L.A. opening up playing each other
       ...teams like Detroit and Boston opening up playing each other
    
    One would think that the schedulers would have...
    
       ...cold weather teams opening up on the road in warm weather cities
       ...early April games played in domed stadiums
    
    The Yankees had 5K people at their game yesterday and I know it was
    cold for the Cubbies this week. Anyone who went to Fenway yesterday
    was a bit colder upon leaving than when they arrived.
    
    Imagine being a player and spending two months in FLA and then playing
    games that count in Winterlike temps.
    
    Maj

	Come on, Maj, don't be a wuss.  It was down right toasty on 
	Opening Day.  Never figured you for an indoor-baseball-artifical-
	turf kinda guy.


	billl

It was warm on Opening Day.  I was ready to nude up, but /Don wouldn't
let me.   He told me I'd start sweating and folks would think I was on 
drugs, like Dominique.

I got some sunburn, and was pretty sweaty by the end of the day.



Is the Major League baseball schedule still worked by hand by that couple
from Sheboygan?  (Well, is it still worked by hand?)


'Saw