Conference noted::ibmpc-95

    The bag checker is back in Natick as well......went down last week with
    my son so he could get Red Alert and they had a guy there with an
    "official" looking security (as in rent-a-cop) shirt. Actually the 
    person was a high school kid who didn't look like he knew what he was
    doing.
    
    Jerry

    It's amazing how the discount works, I've checked prices before
    with discount and found that I could still get it elsewhere cheaper.
    But the other day, checked on the price of the Gyromouse - regular
    price was $69.xx, Digital prices was $47.xx.  So bought it, as
    I needed a new mouse anyway.  BTW works as advertised.
    
    Maybe, they have the bag checker so people think COMPUSA is 
    similar to a warehouse store...... (Sam's...) .  Is kind of 
    rediculous.  Sounds like an electronic checker would be cheaper,
    if I remember correctly doesn't Computer City (across the stree)
    have the electronic type?  

Computer City has someone who watches at the exit, and sometimes they ask to
see a receipt, but not for all purchases.

				Steve

    It would appear that some business grad student probably did a thesis
    on retail stores and thefts.  I suspect that if the cashier knows that
    the receipt is going to be checked, then they are more careful.  It
    also hinders the cashier being a friend of the buyer and deliberately
    ringing something up low or for free.
    
    It still burns me that there's this person wasting resources when they
    could have added another cashier and I would not have has to wait in
    line as long.
    
    The next time I go through the line at CompUSA and he just punches my
    ticket, I'm going to ask "How much was that?  How much should it have
    been?" and then point him to the sign that it's for MY benefit that
    he's doing what he's doing.  The same sign that he pointed to when I
    asked him to justify what he was doing.
    
    Oy, don't get me started.  I suppose that irritating as it is, if it
    cuts down on shoplifting, we all  benefit.

    I asked the receipt puncher at the CompUSA in Nashua why he was there.
    He said that it was to prevent someone from buying a product, leaving
    the store, then returning and picking up another one of the same
    product listed on the receipt and walking out.  The hole in the receipt
    indicates that it was already "used" to get out of the store.  They
    don't check the price on the receipt as far as I could tell, just count
    the number of items or see if they are the correct items.

    ---Phil

    I stopped by the CompUSA store in Nashua yesterday. They had a pair of
    Acer Aspire computers (system box) on their "as is" table. The price
    was $99 each "as is." I opened up one and found a 1 GB Connor hard drive, 
    8 MB of memory memory, a 4X CD drive,3 1/2" floppy, P100 CPU, and 14.4 
    data/fax/voice modem. The ticket on the unit said bad motherboard, no 
    post, no video.
    
    Well, the periphs were worth a lot more than $99 so I bought it. Brought
    the unit home, plugged it in, and sure enough, no vid. I opened it up
    and noticed that the two 4MB simms were installed in slots 3 and 4
    rather than 1 and 2. I reinstalled them in 1 and 2 and voila!
    
    Unit booted right into Windows .... requested a Certificate ID number
    (which I called CompUSA for) and then auto-dialed to register the unit
    with Acer. Not bad for $99! Keep an eye on those "as is" tables!!
                                                 

    BRILLIANT! :')

    Re: <<< Note 341.373 by BBQ::WOODWARDC "...but words can break my heart" >>>

    >BRILLIANT! :')
    
    I assume your *not* talking about the stellar service technicians at
    CompUSA?  :-)
    
    jeb
    

    
    I have an IBM Thinkpad notebook computer that needs repair.  I have
    called around and the only place I can find to fix it so far is 
    CompUSA, although I think that maybe Computer City or a Digital
    Servicenter might fix it too.  The problem is that when I call 
    CompUSA I have to wait on hold for a *very* long time before someone
    answers.  Then when they finally pick up I get very vague answers
    to my questions about how much it will cost to fix or whether they
    could really fix it at all.  They say that they can't really say
    until I bring it in and give them $29.97 to look at it.  This makes
    me hesitate to go to them.  Is there a better place to go?  Or is
    this what I should expect?  (I am in Nashua NH).
    
    thanks......................beth scaer

>>They say that they can't really say  until I bring it in and give them 
>>$29.97 to look at it. 

I think you will find this common practice at many service locations.

bjm

	A couple of good prices, if anyone's interested...

		16MB 60ns 72 pin SIMMs (FP or EDO) - $69.99
		HP693C inkjet - $249.97

	No mail-in rebates necessary. HP's photo kit rebate is good until
	the end of this month.

Larry

    re:-1 {compusa} the HP693C is $249.97, photo kit is $49.95, 
    rebate by mail is
    $49.95.  Now why don't they just give it?  5 year warrentee for $49.
    ed

    I almost bought the HP693C, but then I did some research and found
    out about the new Epson Stylus Color 600 and 800 models that are
    going to be coming out probably around the end of this week.  They
    both do 1440x720 dpi.  The 600 model will be store-priced around $299,
    and the 800 model will be, uh, I forget, somewhere around $449 (?).
    
    The main difference between the two is that the model 800 is faster,
    is rated to last longer, and so on.  Both printers will do photo
    quality output (on special paper, of course :-)) without special
    cartridges (the HP693C requires you to switch cartridges).
    
    See http://www.epson.com and also comp.periphs.printers.  I'm going
    to check these out when they come out.  The Nashua CompUSA didn't
    have them in when I called over the weekend; they figured either
    the end of this week or the beginning of next week.
    
    Chris

In early Dec I mailed in a $20 rebate for some sematec software I 
got in Nov. It was suppose to be good only in Compusa. figured, 
"great!, that will help lower the price of  the new modem I have 
been eyeing".

Finally got the rebate check this week. It is for $20 and good 
only at CompUSA, but it is only good for more Sematec 
software. This was not what the rebate labels said.

To add insult to injury, the check has a use by date that expired 
a week ago.   Talk about scumbags.....

    re 341.376
    
     Ibm thinkpad repair depot (aka ibm easyserve)
     1-800-772-2227
     It's a mail in repair center.They can provide you a container to ship
     it in with which arrives the next morning after a cal is logged with
     them.They do warranty work in which they pay shipping
    costs.Non-warranty calls can be billed via credit card.Service
    turnaround is 4-5 days.I have sent over 20 laptops to them and the 
    turnaround time is accurate...fyi
    

    re: .380
    
    I'd be willing to bet that if you related that story to the management
    at CompUSA, that they'd back it up.  They can't afford to have scumbags
    associated with them.  I don't know if they'd let you loose with $20
    but surely they would let you have $20 off more Sematech software.
    
    But that begs the question: "Would I want to buy anything more from
    these people?"

re .382

    Your last line was my exact thought as I tossed the rebate in 
the trash...   I don't know why they even call it a rebate. It's are 
coupon for the next purchase.

    
    ...If you didn't like the exit inspections
    
    	CompUSA is now taking customer thumbprints for all Check and Credit
    Card transactions.

    For real or is it just gullible Thursday?
    
    Jason

    I think he's a month late...

    
    
    
    
    
    re: CompUSA Thumbprints -- Full Text from LA Daily News Article
    
CompUSA Taking Customer Thumbprints (5/1) <Picture>
<Picture>
BY GREGORY J. WILCOX 
c.1997 Los Angeles Daily News 


<Picture: L>OS ANGELES - When Brian Papworth tried to pay for about $20 worth 
    of computer equipment at the CompUSA store in Burbank on Tuesday night
    he got a surprise. The cashier wanted Papworth's thumbprint in addition
    to his  credit card imprint. 

    Papworth left without making the purchase. 

    ``I just wanted to buy a new mouse pad and armrest for the keyboard but
    when they told me I had to leave my thumb print I said, `No way,''',
    said Papworth, a film director who lives in Hollywood. ``How Orwellian
    does this sound.'' 

    The Dallas-based electronics retailer Wednesday said it is simply
    trying to protect itself - and its customers - from check and credit
    card fraud, which both can increase the cost of merchandise. 

    CompUSA initiated the program in the Los Angeles area Sunday without
    any fanfare. Customers entering the stores are handed a flier stating
    that thumbprints will be required on all check and charge transactions. 

    ``Customers can feel safer knowing no one can use their check or credit
    card illegally,'' the flier reads in part. 

    Carol Elfstrom, CompUSA spokeswoman, said thumb-printing customers is a
    test program being tried in some of the company's 124 stores
    nationwide. She would not say how many. 

    ``Since this is a security-related issue we can't say too much about
    it,'' she said. 

    Customers leave their thumbprint on the check or credit card receipt.
    If the check clears, the canceled document is either returned to the
    customer or the bank. 

    Credit card receipts are stored for three years before they are
    destroyed. 

    The thumbprints are used only if a check bounces or in instances of
    check or credit card fraud, the company said. Otherwise, they will not
    be made available to anyone outside the company. 

    Elfstrom would not say how big a problem check or credit card fraud is
    for CompUSA. 

    ``Fraud is a problem for any company and we certainly want to pay
    attention to it so we don't have any additional costs to our
    customers,'' she said. 

    The fliers being passed out at the stores say the program is being
    encouraged by local police agencies. But the new program was a surprise
    to the Los Angeles Police Department. Nonetheless, a forgery detective
    said it was a good idea. 

    Detective Roy Hunter of the department's Bunco-Forgery Division said
    these kinds of programs can cut down on fraud. For example, about four
    years ago the state began requiring thumbprints when property changed
    hands. 

    ``It's virtually stopped people stealing other people's property,''
    Hunter said of the fingerprint program. ``It's a great idea and I can
    understand why CompUSA is doing it.'' 

    A similar program was initiated by several big banking companies
    earlier this year but so far it does not seem to be spreading to other
    retailers. Representatives of Macy's West and Best Buy said their
    companies had no plans for a similar program at this 

    Not surprisingly, consumer activists oppose the program. 

    Don Haines, the American Civil Liberties Union national legislative
    counsel on privacy and cyberspace issues, maintains there are no
    guarantees that the thumbprints will not be abused no matter what banks
    and retailers say. 

    ``Taking someone's fingerprint or thumbprint is an incredible invasion
    of privacy,'' said Haines. ``It treats a customer, who ought to be
    valued, as a criminal.'' 

    Linda Sherry, editorial director of San Francisco-based Consumer
    Action, said she was ``flabbergasted'' by the CompUSA program. 

    ``It seems to be that retailers ought to be a little bit more concerned
    of their customers' feelings. You don't want to be put across a grill
    when you are buying supplies,'' she said. 

    That's what Palmdale resident Krest Hurley thought after buying about
    $70 worth of software for his employer Wednesday in Woodland Hills. 

    ``I didn't like it at all,'' he said of having to leave his thumbprint.
    ``It's somewhat intrusive.'' 

    But Encino resident Jack Mehlman, who was browsing through the store
    Wednesday afternoon and didn't make any purchases, said he had no
    problem with the program. 

    ``There are just so many thieves and burglars around that I think
    stores have to protect themselves,'' said the retired civil engineer
    

The store takes no risk with credit card transactions as long as they get
an authorization number.  This goes back to the now-outlawed practice of
requiring address and phone numbers on credit card slips.

				Steve

    I had my wallet stolen a while ago.  In the time it took to realize
    that it was stolen and not lost, the thief had a good time.  Charges
    were as follows -

    Home Depot - $2,000 (new tractor?)

    Computer City - $2.400 (new PC, what else?)

    Circuit City - $1,800 (new home entertainment unit?)

    If the person who stole it had to leave prints, they may have thought
    twice about using the cards, or at least the cops would might had a
    shot at catching the person.

    It does raise interesting privacy issues, though.

    Dan  

    

    Hmmm, what an opportunity for a new product, though.
    
    If you've ever watched a game show, you've heard of Lee Press-On
    Nails.  How about slip-on latex thumbprints?  Kind of like the
    finger-cot version of Mission:Impossible masks...
    
    Chris

    An old Batman episode had Alfred with painted-on fingerprints. It's
    gotta be do-able, right!?

    Absolutely... time for a Science Fair project:
    
    
    Materials
    ---------
    1 Acme Junior Detective Fingerprint Kit
    1 Scanner
    1 Copy of ImageMangler Software
    1 Old Dot Matrix Printer (gotta be good for something, right?)
    1 Piece of Paper
    1 Piece of Double-Stick Tape
    1 Bag Pink Balloons
    
    
    Procedure
    ---------
    1.  Make your own thumbprint
    2.  Scan in your thumbprint
    3.  Alter the thumbprint image to resemble that of another life form
    4.  Save the file on some untraceable off-line storage medium
    5.  Take the ribbon out of the dot-matrix printer
    6.  Double-stick a pink balloon, slightly stretched, onto paper
    7.  Set printer impact force to "Gouge"
    8.  Impact-print the mangled thumbprint image right onto the balloon
    9.  Cut new thumbprint out of balloon, glue to thumb
    10. Visit your local CompUSA
    
    
    Extra Credit
    ------------
    After making purchase, simulate the Mission:Impossible "sting"
    effect by smirking at the clerk and pulling off the thumbprint
    as you stride briskly out the door and drive off in your Lincoln.
    
    Chris

The grocery store I used to work at in my youth used to photograph anyone
cashing a check. 

Seems to me a better way to go than thumbprints ...

I guess I'll be using cash there.

I also don't like places like Service Merc. having you sign on an electronic
pad.  I have not used a credit card there since.

bjm

>I also don't like places like Service Merc. having you sign on an electronic
>pad.  I have not used a credit card there since.


    	I dunno, that doesn't seem such a big deal.  It's in lieu of
    signing on paper, so whether it's electronic or paper it doesn't make a
    lot of difference.  I had it explained to me at the high-end audio
    place that I frequent that it's used merely to show that it's really me
    authorizing the purchase.  Doesn't seem like a bad idea to me.
    Although physically writing on the pad is tougher because it's harder
    to see what my hand is actually creating.



    Brian

>I also don't like places like Service Merc. having you sign on an electronic
>pad.  I have not used a credit card there since.
    
    Just tell them you'd prefer to sign the credit card receipt outside the
    pad.  The only effect is that they have to print an extra credit-card
    slip/receipt (with the pad the normally print a single receipt which
    you take away with you; if you refuse it they have to keep the receipt
    with your signature, and print another one for you).  If the clerk
    doesn't know how to deal with this, escalate it to a manager.  They'll
    let you do it eventually.  Both Service Merchandise and Circuit City
    have these things, and I have no trouble refusing to use them at either
    store.
    
    John

>    	I dunno, that doesn't seem such a big deal.  It's in lieu of
>    signing on paper, so whether it's electronic or paper it doesn't make a
>    lot of difference.  
    
    It's simply a way that the store can save the cost of handling paper
    receipts.  I trust a store to protect my credit card receipts (because
    they need them to obtain payment from the credit card company).  But
    I have no way of knowing how they'll protect my digitized signature
    (which can be copied far more easily than a paper version).
    
    
>    I had it explained to me at the high-end audio
>    place that I frequent that it's used merely to show that it's really me
>    authorizing the purchase.  Doesn't seem like a bad idea to me.
    
    That's just how a normal signature on paper is used.  There's no
    advantage to the customer in providing a digitized signature, and a
    significant risk. I guess the long-term effect of these things will to
    devalue signatures as a means of proving ones identity.
    
    John

	I'm with John on this one.  I refused to let Service Merchandise
digitize my signature and they made a second copy and kept the paper one.
(The guy behind me in line liked that idea as well.) I also don't give Service
Merchandise (or any other retailer) my phone number.

	I sure as hell won't leave my thumbprint....

						--Doug

    Frankly, I can see a time in the future where something like
    a thumb print is coded into a credit card, or a thumb print
    is used exclusively for purchases in lieu of plastic. It's a 
    well known fact that no two people have the same fingerprints.
    Once the technology is proven to reliably read/scan finger prints,
    it will likely make cash & plastic transactions obsolete.
    In fact I saw a piece on the 6:00 news last night where some place
    out on the west coast, there is a key fob type of thing that can
    be used in place of a credit card at certain brand gas stations.
    No fumbling needed to dig out a credit card or cash in a public
    place. You simply wave this plastic key fob next to a scan window
    on the front of the gas pump, and your gas purchase is automatically
    billed to an account. It definitely lends itself to a greater sense
    of security, in what are sometimes seen as high risk crime locations.
    
    Bob

>I guess I'll be using cash there.

Be sure to bring a sheet of paper and an ink pad.  Require the COMP USA
staff you deal with to provide THEIR thumbprints :-).  See if they complain
about it (after all, you have no real idea that the person you are handing
your cash to actually works at the store).

>I also don't like places like Service Merc. having you sign on an electronic
>pad.  I have not used a credit card there since.

I tell 'em No and insist on signing it off the pad.  At OfficeMax here in
Nashua, one of the cashiers will mostly likely start arguing with you about
it and insisting that you justify why you won't sign on the pad.  All those
years of arguing with EDP have really paid off :-).

-Joe

>
>    If the person who stole it had to leave prints, they may have thought
>    twice about using the cards, or at least the cops would might had a
>    shot at catching the person.

This would only be useful if you had a set of prints to compare it to.  Any
idea about many problems this fingerprinting would actually prevent?  And if
it such a good idea, why not fingerprint everybody above a certain age?  Then
crime would really go down... And perhaps quality of life as well.

-Joe

    re: cash
    
    I was just talking about this with someone... I'd venture that
    using cash is indeed probably one of the best ways to fight this.
    Stores hate handling cash, for several reasons.
    
    It'll be good for me, too... I find that I spend less when I have
    to hand over my own actual cash, out of my own actual hand, into
    someone else's hand, gone forever.
    
    Chris

Lifting your signature off a signed receipt with a computer scanner would be a
TRIVIAL  thing. I don't see anything to be afraid of by signing directly into
the computer system. It's a bit unnerving at first I admit but I figure if
they're going to be dishonest they could copy my signature just as easily from
the paper reciept. If it saves the store money, some (not much) might find its
way to your pocket (via lower prices). 

There will be other (better, I hope) ways of positively identifying people in
the near future I'm sure. 

Steve B.

    For those of you who are ultra-paranoid about signing your
    signature on an electronic pad, what do you think your doing
    when you sign for that UPS or Fed-X package? They are all using
    an electronic pad for your signature. Are you not going to sign
    that and then listen to the delivery person tell you, that they
    can't leave that package you've been waiting for unless you sign
    it, no, most of you you're going to sign it and get on with your
    life.
    Some of you folks are way too paranoid....
    
    Bob

	The only time I hit the UPS issue, I hadn't thought it through and
I was pissed off because I'd been lied to multiple times about when & where
I could pick up my item.  In the future, I simply won't sign on the pad.

	I won't call people who won't accept calls from caller-id-blocked
lines either.  I had an argument with a long-time friend of mine yesterday
(I had to call her at the office because she had her home phone blocked) on
that very topic.  If she continues to block blocked lines, I won't call her.

	I permit no automatic withdrawals from my bank accounts.  I don't
surf from my home PC which contains my financial data.  I don't have a check
card although I finally compromised enough to have an ATM card which I use for
withdrawals only.

	I actually believe that I'm only "baseline" paranoid.  I could
probably be more so without feeling weird about it but I'm unlikely to get
less so.

					--Doug

>Lifting your signature off a signed receipt with a computer scanner would be a
>TRIVIAL  thing. I don't see anything to be afraid of by signing directly into
>the computer system. It's a bit unnerving at first I admit but I figure if
>they're going to be dishonest they could copy my signature just as easily from
>the paper reciept. If it saves the store money, some (not much) might find its
>way to your pocket (via lower prices). 
    
    I'm not concerned about "the store" lifting a signature.  I'm concerned
    that, while they most likely know how to protect physical credit card
    slips, it is less likely that they apply proper protection to digitized
    signatures while on the store's computer systems, and in transit
    between such computer systems.
    
    On the other hand, I wouldn't be too concerned about being (ink-)
    fingerprinted when making a purchase, at least not from a privacy
    perspective.  A fingerprint reveals nothing that the act of paying with
    a check or credit card hadn't already revealed (except if I'm using a
    credit card or bank account that doesn't belong to me).  I might object
    on the grounds that it's messy and takes time, but I don't see a
    privacy concern.
    
    John

>    For those of you who are ultra-paranoid about signing your
>    signature on an electronic pad, what do you think your doing
>    when you sign for that UPS or Fed-X 

Fed-X?  Isn't that the place that will broadcast your electronic signature
all over (at least their commercial touting it as a feature says so)?
You know, the commercial where the tracking software lets you see when a
package was signed for AND provides the signature as well? 

>    Some of you folks are way too paranoid....

And some are not paranoid enough.  They are the ones pushing things 
'down the slippery slope'.
    
-Joe

>Lifting your signature off a signed receipt with a computer scanner would be a
>TRIVIAL  thing. I don't see anything to be afraid of by signing directly into
>the computer system. 

To me, at least, one is taking something without my permission while the
other is me giving something with my permission.  It might not be much, but
perhaps it will let any issues of 'intent' be decided in your favor.

>There will be other (better, I hope) ways of positively identifying people in
>the near future I'm sure. 

Sure, when 'they' start requing DNA samples :-).

-Joe

    I'm tempted to go to Comp USA and buy a $2,000 to $3,000 dollar system
    - with cash.  
    
    Or better yet, charge it and refuse to give the print.  I seriously
    doubt that the desire to "protect the consumer" would truly override
    the capitalistic values there.
    
    Re: pictures - I remember those.  They didn't last long.  Problem with
    pictures is that its VERY difficult to match a picture to a name.  You
    can tell if the real card holder doesn't match the picture.  And if you
    somehow catch the person, then you have some level of confirmation they
    did it. But it doesn't much help to find the person who did it without
    other information.
    
    If you were into genealogy, you'd understand this all too well, as you
    sift through hundreds of family photos of "complete strangers".  I have
    a photo of one of my great-great-grandmothers - I just haven't been
    able to find out what her name was!
    
    Isn't it strange that the harder we strive to insure our security, the
    less secure our lives become?
    
    jeb
    

    I'm miffed by the whole signature issue.  I generally sign Micky Mouse
    or J{scribble} D{scribble}.  The sales clerks 'seemingly' compare the
    signatures, which I intentionally make completely different, and
    happily hand my card back and I'm on my way.  This has lead me to
    believe that nobody cares about the whole signature thing.  I've never
    felt empowered by my signature.  Are signatures frequently used as
    evidence in law?
    
    "Mr. DeCarteret, I have this letter signed by you threatening to kill
    the president.  I'm afraid you're under arrest."
    "That's not my signature."
    "Okay sir, sorry to bother you."
    
    Jason

    Well...then maybe you all better invest in some coastal
    property on your own individual islands, because thast's
    the only way you are going to get true privacy. Of course
    you'll have to give up all those other "things" you've come
    to depend on. Good luck to all you paranoid types.
    
    BTW, I too do most of those things you mention about not giving
    out your phone number, signing things unnecessarily, etc. but
    all those things are simply common sense. However it doesn't
    make me paranoid. For goodness sakes, a stinking little fingerprint
    isn't going to do diddly-squat to negatively affect your present 
    level of privacy.
    I think we've beaten the dead-horse on this as I can hear the
    drumming on the aformentioned dead-horse loud and clear.  :-)
    Your points are all well taken, and clearly articulated, but do
    seem to border on the side of over-reaction to the fingerprint
    issue quite frankly.
    Oh, and I'd rather ensure my security than insure my security. :-)
                       ^^^^^^
    
    Bob

>    Oh, and I'd rather ensure my security than insure my security. :-)

If you 'insured' it, you'd have to give your social security number :-) :-).

-Joe

    Has anyone asked the charge card companies what they think about
    requiring fingerprints, and what they will do if you refuse?
    
    I believe credit card companies have refused to let stores charge
    through them when the store did something 'wrong'.  The only example I
    can call to mind is if the store (or more often a restaurant) requires
    a higher minimum purchase to use one credit card than for another, but
    I think there have been other issues.
    
    If anyone wants to try this, go to the store, try to make a significant
    purchase by charging it, refuse to give the fingerprint, and if the
    store won't carry through on the sale without the fingerprint call the
    credit card company and complain.  It would be interesting to see what
    happens.

Coincidentally, there's a story in today's Colorado Springs Gazette
concerning banks requiring thumbprints for non-members to cash checks.
Reportedly First Union cut check fraud losses by 40% in those branches where
the thumbprinting policy was put into effect.

The article starts out by saying that there's now a booming ($615M in 1995)
check fraud business, fueled by scanner and printer technology.

I can easily see why stores are trying these security measures.

http://www1.gazette.com/gtonline/archive/97-05-02/nat060.html

I was in COMPUSA in Nashua, NH last night, paid for my merchandise (>$175)
with a check, and was administered no such check. 

By the way, the amount of discount varied widely. $20 versus $34 for some
Koday high-gloss inkjet paper, to $120 versus about $130 for a ten-pack of
ZIP disks.

Art

Credit card companies have, in the past, clearly stated that they do not want
merchants to collect additional identifying information for charge transactions,
such as drivers license numbers, phone numbers, etc.  If proper authorization
was received, and it can't easily be shown that the merchant committed fraud,
there should be no chargeback.

I have had cashiers ask to see my drivers license when my signature looked a
bit "too strange", as it has been lately...

				Steve

    So far, I've refused to sign for charges on electronic pads.  But I'm
    considering doing it with a signature different from my regular one and
    with the date written within it.  If that signature turned up in
    another transaction on a different date, I'd be able to deny it, and
    editing it would probably be a sufficient nuisance that forgers would
    just skip it.
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

    I wrote the CompUSA CEO about how the "bag checker" is annoying and
    insulting.  I got a response from the local store manager saying they
    will be switching to a "professional service".  Oh, goody, no customers
    will be professionally annoyed and insulted.
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

    re .417
    
    I've considered something similar- adding a serial number to the
    signature.  So far, I've just avoided doing business with Service
    Merchandise and not had to deal with this issue.  I wonder if anyone
    there cares that there are people who have not done business with them
    since they added the electronic signature pads.
    
    - M

>    signature.  So far, I've just avoided doing business with Service

  I went back on one occasion for a cache transaction.  Never thought about
  the serial number idea.  Wouldn't use any part of my Social Security number
  though 8^)

>    Merchandise and not had to deal with this issue.  I wonder if anyone
>    there cares that there are people who have not done business with them
>    since they added the electronic signature pads.

  If it has mattered at all, their management hasn't seemed to have noticed
  and the store personnel probably wouldn't think of it.

  	mikeP

I'm finding myself very amused at this whole topic, which seems to have
drifted somewhat off the track of CompUSA in general to privacy in 
particular.  The caller who won't call phones that block the caller-id 
blocked lines seems the most amusing.  I see that as, she wants to block
anonymous harrassing phone calls, so you call her at work to harass her
about why she won't accept your anonymous phone call...   The most paranoid
wins, eh?

Not that there aren't security concerns, of course.  I got an interesting
phone call at home a little over a week ago.  Women on the phone asks for
me, so I say, yes?  "This is not a solicitation, we're just working for
a company doing promotional such and such and you could win free software
etc, we just need to check a few facts.
Ok.
Your full name is Peter M. Thompson...
Yes
Your address is (and she read off my address)
Yes
You own your house?
Eh?
You own your house?
Yes...
You sign your name (I forget if she included the middle initial, which I never
use)
Yes... 
And we need you to verify your social security number...
Yes...
silence
No, we need you to verify your social security number...
At which point, having been somewhat suspicious through out this 
whole thing I tell her that I am not giving out my SS#, but if 
she has it I may or may not tell her if it's correct.
At which point she says, thank you, have a nice day and hangs up.

Still seems fishy to me.  I've alternatively thought I should have
either given her a totally bogus SS# to see what happened, or
told her that the word verify meant that she was supposed to 
tell me what my number was and I would say yes or no (which I 
sort of did but with a bit more baggage.)  Or maybe I should
just have asked them if they prefered my credit card number instead....

PeterT

    <-.1
    You show more patience than me... I just keep a portable marine air
    horn next to my phone for those calls.  K

    Heh, I use a referee's whistle.....the caller addresses me by name
    or worse uses the new "personal" ploy of addessing me in a casual
    way, as "Hi Bob, I'm so-&-so and I represent the "Ugly Insurance Co."
    I have a real sweet deal. I'll then usually stop him long enough 
    to ask him to hold while I get the person who he really wants to 
    talk to, I'll put down the phone somewhat noisly, wait about 10
    seconds, and then blow the whistle as loud as I can near the
    head-set or microphone, If I happen to use the speakerphone.
    These dudes at the other end of the phone are usually wearing
    one of those headsets that give then hands-free operation. I can
    just visualize them ripping off the headset rather quickly when
    the whistle blows. That's about as extreme as I get. Usually
    I'll just tick them off a little by just saying "just a moment"
    and walk away from the phone until they eventually hang up.
    
    Bob

>  I went back on one occasion for a cache transaction. 
    
    What's this -- where you buy the same thing a second time, and it's
    right there waiting for you?

>>  I went back on one occasion for a cache transaction. 
    
>    What's this -- where you buy the same thing a second time, and it's
>    right there waiting for you?
    
    Nope! You give your signature or fingerprints once. If you come back in
    time for another purchase you don't have to give it again. It's much
    more secure...
    
    Guenther

    Re: .411
    
    >Oh, and I'd rather ensure my security than insure my security. :-)
    >                   ^^^^^^
    >
    >Bob
    
    Wow.  14 years of noting, and I *finally* get my first *incorrect*
    nitpick, so I can flame on it with even more authority than usual. :-)
    
    According to the New Merriam-Webster Dictionary, 1989 edition:
    
    en-sure \in-'shur\ vb en-sured; en-sur-ing : INSURE, GUARANTEE syn
    assure, secure
    
    in-sure \in-'shur\ vb in-sured; in-sur-ing 1 : to provide or obtain
    insurance on or for : UNDERWRITE 2 : to make certain : ENSURE
    
    I make a habit of using insure, even when tempted to use ensure (for
    esthetics more than meaning) because for want of a dictionary, people
    often somehow mistake the meaning of the word ensure to mean something
    it doesn't.
    
    But while I'm here...
    
    >BTW, I too do most of those things you mention about not giving out
    >your phone number, signing things unnecessarily, etc. but all those
    >things are simply common sense. However it doesn't make me paranoid...     
    >Your points are all well taken, and clearly articulated, but do seem to
    >border on the side of over-reaction to the fingerprint issue quite
    >frankly.
    
    What I seem to hear you saying is that we all have to maintain a degree
    of healthy skepticism (or mild paranoia) for our own safety.  However,
    those that dare discuss it publicly are overly paranoid, while those
    that keep it to themselves are okay.  Hmmmm.  Which is less paranoid? 
    You decide.
    
    I plan to keep on doing everything I can to INSURE my privacy, to delay
    the slippery slope as long as possible.
    
    However, naive as I am, I have less problem with the electronic
    signature devices than some.  I figure a signature tucked away in the
    bowels of a computer is a lot less likely to be used against me than
    the carbon imprint on my credit card slip at a restaurant.
    
    The thumbprint thing is just irrationality on my part.  It "feels" too
    private to be thumbprinted at a checkout, even though I leave my
    thumbprint all over the place in the course of the day.  Guess it has
    overtones of "being arrested" or something.  Anyway, I just plain don't
    like it, even if it discourages fraud that might otherwise hurt me.
    
    And, as for the validity of signatures, it seems like the whole
    Bene-Ramsey thing is going to hinge on handwriting samples, so they
    obviously still play SOME importance, even if it isn't for validating
    charges.
    
    jeb
    

re: .421

	I'm hardly harassing her - we've been friends for more than half our
lives.  

	The phone call you got sounds suspiciously like fishing for info as a
setup for a scam.

						--Doug

    To all last replies... (or so)
      I do block calls as well and have found it to be to my benefit.  I
    personally could care less if someone chooses not to call me because of
    it.  In fact... I hope that they don't ..  That way I keep my privacy. 
    I've found that by blocking the calls that I get far fewer "bogus"
    dinnertime calls.  It's worth the privacy. 
    
    l8tr..
    Steve m..

    > en-sure \in-'shur\ vb en-sured; en-sur-ing : INSURE, GUARANTEE syn
    > assure, secure
        
    That is odd, my 1989 Websters New World Compact School and Office
    Dictionary has the following def for ensure. :-) (and it's the way
    I've always known for it to be used).
    
    ensure    1. to make sure 2. to protect
    
    
    If you had said..... "I'll make sure that my security is insured",
    then I wouldn't have made a mention of how I perceived that you used
    the word "insure" in place of where I would have used "ensure". :-)
    
    Oh well, you do it your way, & I'll do it my way. :-) I already have
    insurance for other things. As for those things & aspects that I
    don't have "insured", I'll "ensure" by virtue of my actions that they
    are protected. :-)
    
    Bob
    
    PS: The thumbprint thing is getting curious, based on what a subsequent
    reply mentioned about going back to a store where you have previously
    made a purchase and left your thumbprint. is the store policy clear
    on this? Does the purchaser have to have another thumbprint ever, or
    is only on the same day as another purchase?

    Wow... it looks like Usenet in this thread... :-)

    Re .426:
    
    > I figure a signature tucked away in the bowels of a computer is a lot
    > less likely to be used against me than the carbon imprint on my credit
    > card slip at a restaurant.
    
    You might think so -- but why do thieves rob banks?  Because that's
    where the money is.  Similarly, the electronic collection of signatures
    results in a repository of valuable information.  Professional
    criminals might find a disk drive full of signatures more tempting than
    a dumpster with credit card receipts.
    
    Even though there is more money in a bank than in a cash register or
    your wallet, your money is safer in the bank.  This is because the bank
    is careful about security and guarantees your money.  Do you expect
    that CompUSA or Office Max have proper security or that they will
    guarantee us against theft of our signatures?
                                         
    As reported in the Risks Digest, there have already been cases where
    computer hardware containing tens of thousands of credit card numbers
    was stolen.  It is only matter of time until a disgruntled employee
    walks off with a back-up tape containing signatures.
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

Reading the last couple has been a hoot. My only question is what's next??

clerk "Yes Mr Smith, we accept that McDonalds Gold-Arches Visa, but we need 2 forms 
        of ID,  one of which is in the form of DNA"

Customer " Huhhhh???"

Clerk  " Oh yes, to help protect you, we have the latest in security.  We find the 
            photo not as effective, as people grow beards, dye their hear etc. Instead
            we check your DNA and match it to the master databank along with a 
             real-time 3D visualization to show what you ought to look like along with 
             any genetic diseases whose symtoms you ought to be showing about now"

Customer  " Your kidding right??"

Clerk   "Oh No, I am being perfectly candid with you sir. This system is foolproof, well 
	except for twins and a couple of dozen test tube babies. but statistically, they are
	unimportant"

Customer  "So how do you do this test?"

Clerk   " Oh, it is so easy, We originally tried blood samples but between our risk creating an 
	infection, transfering AIDS, or worse of all, gumming up our A/D converter to the 
	cash registar, we found the easiest method is through a urine sample"

Customer "No way"

Clerk   " Oh yes sir, and as a benefit to our Corporate customers, we can run a complimentery 
	 drug test for any  transactions involving the use of their corporate purchasing card
	at  no extra charge"

Customer "I don't know. Like is that thing safe?"

Clerk   "Oh my of course!  It is both UL and OSI approved . And it is endorsed by the association of 
business against check kiters.  All you have to do is give us a 'sample' ".
         
Customer "well I still don't like this"

Clerk  "Sir,    Sir, please try and hurry, the queue  is starting to backup behind you"

Customer "But I just took a wiz and nothing wants to flow if you know what I mean"

Clerk  "Well , we really don't need a big sample as this new machine is very sensitive. But you
              really must hurry,the line is getting longer and the store is about to close
              Please Do try harder..."



As the 3 stoogies used to say "For Duty and Humanity!!!". Then again remember the 
episode when they tried to sell a ball point pen that wrote under whipped cream to 
investors? Looks like another solution looking for a real problem.

Back to the signature pads.  It would seem that if anyone attempted to
reuse a signature that was recorded from one of these devices it would
be bit for bit identical to the original and I wonder if anyone can 
sign their name anywhere close to consistently enough to be the same
on one of these.  It would seem to me that it would be rather easy to
prove that one capture of you signature had been used more than once.
Am I missing something here?  Obviously there is the potential hassle
factor but proving fraud ought to be not all that hard.

Chris

    Re .433:
    
    > It would seem to me that it would be rather easy to prove that one
    > capture of you signature had been used more than once. Am I missing
    > something here?
    
    Yes:  Even if the signatures are identical, how would you prove it? 
    You don't have the bits.  Usually, you don't even have the paper
    signature.  So somebody forges your signature, and you know it is
    bit-for-bit identical with one of your past signatures, but you don't
    have those past signatures to use as proof.
    
    This is why I intend to incorporate the date into my signature.  That
    will enable me to identify exactly which signature it is from the
    records I keep in Quicken, from the paper receipts, or from the credit
    card statements.  If I make more than one credit card purchase in a
    day, I may write the store initials in the signature too.
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

    
    Re: Signatures and other pieces of info...
    
    	Thumbprints and signatures are just little pieces to your personal
    puzzle. Factor in your buying habits, time of day you buy, you like to
    buy things with big store mail-in rebates, but never actually mail them 
    in. All of a sudden a simple name on a credit card such as "K.D. Lang"
    starts to show gender, a yuppie zip code, kids software for a third
    grader, and the type of personality that use circles instead of dots for
    a periods.
    
    	One of the local TV stations just had a little series on how
    employers use signatures to evaluate personalities. Imagine being
    turned down for a job, because you failed the signature personality
    test from some receipt in electronics store....
    
    	Its not Big Brother watching you, its Big System with its disk
    farm.

>>    This is why I intend to incorporate the date into my signature.  

Do you intend to do something like sign, then print the date right over 
your signature?  

If so, although I can see some store clerks being confused I can see it as 
being a reasonable attempt to make the signature dynamic.

bjm

    Actually, I think we are seeing the future (at least in New England) in
    the form of the key fobs that automatically credit your account at gas
    stations.
    
    In terms of actual effort, I don't see that the fobs are any different. 
    Instead of inserting your credit card into the pump, you just wiggle
    the fob at the pump.
    
    Perhaps in some ways its more secure than a credit card (although the
    advertisement wishes otherwise) you can't use the fob (right now)
    anywhere except at gas stations that are a part of the chain that
    developed the fob.
    
    And perhaps if the fob catches on for other things, security will
    become an issue (take it with you when you valet park!).  But there
    must be a better way than taking various body
    images/imprints/secretions.
    
    jeb
    

    Re .436:
    
    > Do you intend to do something like sign, then print the date right
    > over your signature?
    
    Yes,  The date and signature will cross at at least one point, so that
    they cannot be separated with trivial editing.
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

>              <<< Note 341.437 by PCBUOA::BAYJ "Jim, Portables" >>>
>
>    Actually, I think we are seeing the future (at least in New England) in
>    the form of the key fobs that automatically credit your account at gas
>    stations.
    
    Really? I like that. Getting paid to fill up -- now, there's a concept.
    Normally I have to pay _them_.

    Well, technically, I was referring to credit cards, and in accounting   
    terms, a credit to an account associated with a credit card typically   
    refers to something that eventually results in a net decrease in your   
    personal net worth (that is, credit cards are "credited" by the amount   
    that you must now pay the credit card company, which becomes a debit to   
    YOUR checking account).
    
    A credit "adds to" and a debit "takes away".  Adding to a credit card
    balance means that much more you have to pay.
    
    It used to be when you called a credit card company to complain about
    an incorrect charge, they would respond "we will debit your account",
    which sounds bad, but actually means, in more generic terms, that they
    are "giving you credit" for the item.  I suspect they changed their
    terminology because it confused the public.
    
    Terminology has also become more confused with the arrival of debit   
    cards, which debit your checking account directly, rather than   
    crediting an account that then has to be paid off.    
    
    But admittedly, getting paid to fill up is a great idea.    
    
    jeb
    

    Nice "deep water two-step", Jim ;^)

    I think Jim is an anonymous member and graduate of "Spin-Doctors 
    Institute". :-)
    That was an excellent execution of a side-step maneuver to avoid
    the rattling of the thrusting sabre if I ever saw one Jim. :-)
    
    BTW: When I mentioned in an earlier reply the use of the special fobs, 
    that I had seen on TV being used in either Oregon, or the State of 
    Washington, I didn't realize that they were out here on the right
    coast already.
    
    Bob

    It's Mobil which is trying the fobs.  They're tied to a Mobil credit
    card.  I don't see the point, really - according to the newspaper story
    about it, you save all of about 4 seconds over inserting a credit card
    in the pump's reader.
    
    					Steve

    Steve, clearly you've been working way too long for a company that
    regards Marketing as a mystical - perhaps even mythical - practice...
    
    The fob is nothing more than a marketing "gimmick". But more importantly, 
    the fob appears in something the outside world calls "advertising" 
    (which is regarded as taboo here)...

    The segment I saw on this on the evening news last week
    interviewed an individual using it, and a gas station owner.
    This gas station was situated in a northwest state city urban area, 
    also known for its high rate of crime etc. Both the station owner 
    and the driver using it seemed to emphasis that the fob being
    attached to a key chain was one plus about it, it wouldn't readily
    get lost. The other factors mentioned were the fact that a driver 
    didn't have to reach into a pocket to get out cash, or a credit card 
    and the  risk of either getting blown by the wind, or snatched by a 
    robber was a plus for them. They also said that late at night, anything
    that limits the amount of time spent outside the safety of their
    car is a plus. So, being able to quickly wave a fob over clutching for
    cash, or tugging at a credit card in a wallet was seen as a plus.
    The station owner liked them because he didn't have the worry of
    a station attendent being robbed because a lot of cash hanging
    around, and also the concept of a station that didn't require a
    person to be on duty, all things that lower risk to people being
    subjected to crime.
    
    Bob

>    also known for its high rate of crime etc. Both the station owner 
>    and the driver using it seemed to emphasis that the fob being
>    attached to a key chain was one plus about it, it wouldn't readily
>    get lost. 

Of course, some people lock their keys in the car :-)

>The other factors mentioned were the fact that a driver 
>    didn't have to reach into a pocket to get out cash, or a credit card 
>    and the  risk of either getting blown by the wind, 

How big a problem is it for things being blown away in the wind?

>or snatched by a 
>    robber was a plus for them. 

And of course, with the fob, a robber will not grab that?

>They also said that late at night, anything
>    that limits the amount of time spent outside the safety of their
>    car is a plus. 

Of course, they did not suggest refueling during the daytime :-)  Yes,
I know that sometimes it is necessary to do it at night. 

>    around, and also the concept of a station that didn't require a
>    person to be on duty, all things that lower risk to people being
>    subjected to crime.

With fewer people to witness and/or call police about a robbery in progress,
I would think the risk is greater.

-Joe
    

re -.446

Geez, now I've read everything.

Well, I suppose one advantage of the fob is that it can be used for gas only,
whereas a Visa card could be used for most anything.

				Steve

    A couple of years ago, my Corporate Card was cloned (the magnetic
    information copied onto someone else's card), and was used exclusively
    at gas stations, where the crooks, presumably sold "bargain gas" for
    cash.  Part of why this worked was that the automated readers don't
    require a signature (or even notice if the name on the front doesn't
    match the date imprinted on the strip).
    
    I see no reason why the Mobil quick pass won't end up the same way.
    
    tom
    
    Now can we back to discussing CompUSA?

    >With fewer people to witness and/or call police about a robbery in
    >progress, I would think the risk is greater.

    This is actually quote valid.  I saw a news report recently that they
    are trying out putting gas pumps on the same lot as the local
    McDonalds.  The idea is to minimize property and facility expense, and
    yes, to place an unattended pump in a location with a lot of traffic
    to reduce the liklihood of robberies (of the customers).
    
    Of course to me, thats just one more reason *not* to go to McDonalds.
    
    Now if they put gas pumps at CompUSA...  I still wouldn't go there cause
    then they'd want my fingerprint when I filled up!
    
    jeb
    

    RE: .446
    
    Gee Joe, thanks for shooting the messenger. You seem to have a grasp
    for being able to rip things apart. How about some substantive
    constructive arguements in place of the ripping-apart diatribe???
    
    ---

    re .446 & .451
    
    Somebody got shot?  Somebody wrote a diatribe?  I'm either being dull
    today, or others are a little too sensitive.  
    
    It's Friday -- Don't worry -- Be happy.
    
    Tony

    <----- RE: -1
    
    Oh I am. Didn't you see my smileys? :-)
    
    The pot shots were just getting a bit comical that's all.
    
    Bob

    From my dictionary:
    
    fob - A short chain on a pocket watch or an ornament attached to a
    watch chain.
    
    With all imagination...what is this Mobil's fob alike?
    
    Thanks
    Guenther

    
    RE: -.1
    
    I just got mine this week, haven`t tried it yet....
    
    It is 5/16"(8mm) dia, 1-1/2"(3.37cm) long with a hole through one end
    to slip into a key ring.  There are 3 ornamental rings molded around the
    other end.  Color is black with a serial number stamped on one side.
    You get an '800' number to call to activate or deactivate it.
    
    	+---------------|-|-|-+
        | O             | | | |
        +---------------|-|-|-+
    
    
    CompUSA -
    
    Went in the Framingham MA store last night, security guard was there
    not only checking the slip, but verifying the entries on the check-out
    slip to the contents of the bag.  You (not him!) have to empty
    your bag so he could do this!!  I was a little put off by this as
    I only had 1 item which you easily could see in the clear bag you got at
    checkout.  The other thing I don`t understand is what I could possibly
    put in the bag along the way from checkout to the exit....
    I don`t usually go into these types of computer stores anyway, it will
    be a longer while before I go again.....
    
    
    R.M.
    
    
    
    
    

    Boycott them if you like, but as long as I can get things like Category
    5 twisted pair cable for a small percentage above their cost, I'll keep
    going back despite the hassles.
    
    re: fobs
    
    I'm a "glass is half empty" kind of guy.  ;-)  I can just see having a
    pocket full of fobs for different purposes, much as we have remote
    controls for different appliances.  Will there be a market for the
    "universal" fob?  ;-)
    
    Bill

    >Will there be a market for the
    >"universal" fob?  ;-)
    
    Sure.. and the 'programmable' one, and the 'learning'one.... :-)
    
    I can't resist a comment, being a European, still living in Europe:
    How about the really novel concept of using plain old-fashioned cash?
    At least it's anonymous, widely accepted, and none of the risks
    regarding signature pads and what have you exist.
    

>                    <<< Note 341.451 by NETCAD::BATTERSBY >>>
>        -< What did I do to deserve .446??? Anything else to say? :-) >-

>    RE: .446
    
>    Gee Joe, thanks for shooting the messenger. 

I do not recall shooting the messenger at all.  Each point I brought up was
directed at the procedure, not any person.  Don't you agree?


>You seem to have a grasp
>    for being able to rip things apart. 

Must be my physics background :-).  It would be nice if more people (this
is NOT directed at you) would consider such 'negatives' BEFORE coming out
with procedures that will only have to be band-aided or abandoned because
of obviously problems.

>How about some substantive
>    constructive arguements in place of the ripping-apart diatribe???
 

Ok, fair challenge.  And I rise to it by suggesting that the fob can be used,
with appropriate lockout mechanisms, to open the bathroom doors at such
stations :-).

-Joe

>    <<< Note 341.452 by DANGER::ARRIGHI "and miles to go before I sleep" >>>
>
>    re .446 & .451
    
>    Somebody got shot?  Somebody wrote a diatribe?  I'm either being dull
>    today, or others are a little too sensitive.  

Some people would get annoyed if you told them that dropping a heavy object
on their foot might cause injury. :-)

I am sure they would prefer to hear it phrased in a postive fashion, such as
'Gee dropping that heavy object on your foot will give you a chance to take off
from work and lie around the house doing nothing" :-).

I consider NOT pointing out problems with procedures (especially BEFORE they
are implemented) etc to be a big cause of problems at Digital right now.
The reason for pointing them out is they can be avoided or worked around before
a procedure gets out in the world.  Surely a time saver for everyone, right?

-Joe

Friday Comp-USA had two rent-a-cop people waiting to greet people as they 
left the store.

RE: last few billion

Why doesn't everyone just order their computing needs via mail-order, where
they don't require a signiture, thumb print, nothing. Or use cash.

>Why doesn't everyone just order their computing needs via mail-order, where
>they don't require a signiture, thumb print, nothing. 

I certainly will not be giving CompUSA any of my business.

>Or use cash.

I suspect the rent-a-cops will still be there, harrassing store customers.

    Re: .457
    
    Cash has several drawbacks, probably the two largest being that it has
    to be carried in pretty large quantities to be useful (I'd like to see
    you buy a computer or printer with cash, or even an expensive meal,
    nowadays!) and when carried in large quantities, it makes the carrier a
    target for theft from which it is very difficlut to recover the lost
    money.  
    
    The major thrust of the rathole has been gas stations.  That is the
    place they are trying most strenuously to get away from having
    attendants and cash exchanges.  For years, there have been joke
    sketches about places that take anything *but* cash, but its often
    true.  I challenge you to purchase *anything*, even $50 worth of
    anything, at a (so-called) convenience store with a $50 bill.  Which
    reminds me of a third problem - they can be counterfitted.
    
    re: .459
    
    >I consider NOT pointing out problems with procedures (especially BEFORE
    >they are implemented) etc to be a big cause of problems at Digital
    >right now. The reason for pointing them out is they can be avoided or
    >worked around before a procedure gets out in the world.  Surely a time
    >saver for everyone, right?
    
    The way I heard it is "there's never time to do it right, but there's
    always time to do it over".  Actually, I think it should be "its always
    easier to postpone it till rev. 2 than to do it right for rev. 1".  And
    since no one wants to buy a defective product, you don't even have to
    worry about the second revision - the product gets EOL'd long before it
    even has a chance in the market place.
    
    We had this argument over and over and over on a product that I worked
    on.  The team leader, a non-technical guy, swore constantly that the
    *only* thing that mattered on a product was time to market, while the
    techies aregued that if the quality s*****, that beating the
    competition to market by years wouldn't matter.  VERY religious.  I've
    come to accept its a combination of both, but I still err on the side
    of quality.  BTW, the product died a very ugly death before we ever go
    to do a second rev.  It didn't have the stuff in it the marketers
    needed to sell it - but it was on time!!!!  :-(
    
    Re: .461 - mail or on-line ordering
    
    First off, there are definitely security concerns with using the
    internet, and security is the issue that started this string.  Also,
    mail order can sometimes be quite a hassle, especially if there are
    large shipping charges.  Sometimes a shipper will only use UPS, and UPS
    often will not deliver some items without a signature, which can be a
    hassle.  Its often very important to touch an item before buying, and
    to have a face to talk to when there are problems.
    
    And of course, to tie two unrelated issues together, you can't buy gas
    through the mail or over the net!  Meaning some things really need to
    be purchased in person, so you are back to how to convey payment
    between two parties.
    
    jeb
    

    �(I'd like to see
    �you buy a computer or printer with cash, or even an expensive meal,
    �nowadays!)
    
    Join me next time... I definitely bought my computer with cash (a
    fairly long time ago, about $2000), my printer (not so long ago,
    ~$470). I've bought a car for cash (over $10,000) etc... but then again,
    I don't live in US.
    
    Of course, I don't usually carry such large amounts of cash on me - and
    I doubt whether I look so different on the few occasions I do, that it
    would make me a more likely target for theft. The 'default' amount for
    ATM withdrawals here is DM 400 (~$235) and that tends to be the largest
    amount I carry in everyday life.
    

    
    
    	Try paying for a plane ticket in the USA with cash. Watch how
    quickly you become "popular" with the authorities on site. 
    
    
    

    re .464
    
    When I was in Munich (Germany for those across the water) I too found
    it perfectly normal to buy things like a computer for cash. In fact, in
    the cash-oriented German consumer market I'd have to puzzle to try and
    work out how else you'd pay for it. As for flights it was probably
    75-25 cash v credit card, but then only because some places are quite
    happy taking credit card.
    
    Cheers,
    Brian

    Question #1 - do we have a language snafu?  Perhaps its my US
    background, but I can't imagine carrying $10,000-$20,000 cash ANYWHERE,
    and LEAST OF ALL to a car dealership!  (1/2 :-)  Do you perhaps
    consider checks, for example certified bank checks, to be the same as
    cash?  In the US I would not.
    
    Well,  suffice to say the mindset in the US is very different.  I'm
    guessing that perhaps the infrastructure is different in Europe to
    support a cash-based economy.  
    
    For example, if I decided that today is the day I'm going to buy a
    computer with cash, and this being a weekday, my first step would be to
    spend lunch going to the bank to withdraw the money.  There is no way
    I'd find a bank open after my regular working hours (5:00 at the
    latest, typically they close more around 4:00), and teller machines are
    typically limited to $100-$300.  I'd also be limited to a couple of
    hours for shopping after work, and if the amount I estimated was off by
    more than $300, then the purchase would be postponed, while the money I
    pulled out would be sitting in my pocket losing interest (and hopefully
    nothing else).
    
    On the weekend, I'd have more time to shop, but most banks are open
    even fewer hours on Saturday (giving rise to the term "banker's hours",
    meaning significantly less than 8 hours a day), typically 10:00-12:00,
    and you of course would be completely out of luck on Sunday, because
    banks are NEVER open then.
    
    On the other hand, when I go to the grocery store, I almost never pay
    cash.  Instead I use a "check card" that debits (not "credits" :-) from
    my bank account, so there is no credit card bill to pay at the end of
    the month.  I routinely pay for purchases of less than $10 with the
    check card.
    
    As for automobiles, I like to find the 2 year, 0 down, 0% interest
    deals, which lets *me* collect the interest while I drive the car, so
    there isn't even any money exchanged at all.
    
    jeb
    

RE: cash

And don't try to grab that much money from a credit union on short notice.  DCU
was "short of cash" one Saturday morning.  I really didn't think 1200.00 was a
large amount to ask for....

sigh...

bjm

    re .467: Yes, I _am_ speaking of cash, not checks or something else.
    
    Of course, I don't buy cars every day, and the last one I bought I paid
    for with a check, but as I said, I've paid for cars in cash.
    
    A friend of mine just tried to sell his BMW - he hand an ad in the
    Saturday newspaper. The first person who came to see it offered him DM
    22,000 (which he didn't accept as he wanted a bit more) - in cash.
    (That would be ~$13,000). It's quite normal to deal in cash when cars
    are privately sold and bought. (The car I paid for in cash was from a
    dealer).
    
    ATM's usually give up to DM 2000 which might be sufficient for a
    computer nowadays...
    
    Not to give a completely false impression, I think a high percentage of
    larger transactions aren't done in cash here, but not with credit cards
    either (most Munich computer shops won't take them anyway). What's left
    are checks, and some stores accept Eurocheque cards for payment (sort
    of like a debit card). On the other hand, I consider anything below,
    say, $300 a small transcation, and usually pay in cash (unless I'm
    traveling abroad, when I tend to use my credit cards more frequently,
    especially on business travel). On the other hand, I can get cash from
    most ATMs even in US with my German card nowadays, so even there I pay
    mostly cash.
    
    And, I can console you, I didn't pay for my house in cash.... :-)
    

    still chasing the rat downthe hole... ;')
    
    these 'computer fairs' that I attend here in Oz - virtually every
    transaction is cash - be it for a $5 mouse through to several hundred
    dollars for memory or motherboards, to up to a couple of grand for a
    system. Most of the dealers are set up to take credit cards, etc - but
    the deals are _really_ done when the gold of the $50 notes is waved ;')
    
    H

    Look, in the parts of Europe where they care most about margins you get
    the best deals with the "best" credit cards (American Express is
    excellent) and a wallet-full of cash. First offer to pay with credit
    card (*not* the wrong credit card or it might be accepted). There
    should then be a display of reluctance on the shop-owner's face which
    is the cue to ask how much the discount is for cash.
                         
    Even here in France (less cash oriented than Germany, more oriented to
    debit cards) my wife routinely asks for and gets discounts for cash for
    large purchases.
    
    The problem is that Europe is, compared to the States, a relatively
    crime-free area and that rapacious credit card companies charge large
    commissions. Shop owners also pay commission on Eurocheques. The
    conclusion is obvious. They much prefer cash.
    
    When I was working in Munich I often cycled passed a couple of Ferraris
    parked on the street on my way in to work. A colleague here in Paris
    was heartbroken after an incident with his car (which he used to spend
    about 3 hours polishing every Sunday). He got back to the long term
    carpark at CdG airport after 2 weeks holiday, paid his parking ticket,
    walked up to his car and felt in his pocket for his keys. After the
    numbing shock of not finding them there, opening his bags and searching
    in vain there also, he despairingly pulled on the door handle. It
    opened. He looked at the ignition. To his shame there were his keys. Yes,
    he'd left his pride and joy for 2 weeks with the key in the ignition
    and nobody stole his car. Fortunately his ego was strong enough to take
    the blow and he didn't immediately go out and commit suicide. He did
    sell the car, though.
    
    Cheers,
    Brian

    I can't avoid thinking of the Monty Python "Money Programme" sketch...
    
    But I love money.
    All money.
    I've always wanted money.
    To handle! To touch!
    The smell of the rain-washed florin!
    The lure of the lira!
    The glitter and the glory of the guinea!
    The romance of the ruble!
    The feel of the franc!
    The heel of the deutschmark!
    The cold antiseptic sting of the Swiss franc!
    And the sunburnt splendor of the Australian dollar!
    

    re .472:
    
    �The problem is that Europe is, compared to the States, a relatively
    �crime-free area
    
    I'm not sure I'd describe this as a problem...  ;-)
    

    But if you spend cash in the USA the IRS is notified.  It is also
    illegal to carry lare sum of cash into and out of the USA ( I last time
    I check $5,000 was the limit in 1980).  If you depoisit or withdrawn
    more than $1,000 in cash from a "banking" institution, they must report
    it to the IRS. 
    
    If you get the drift, the IRS thinks if you are using cash you not
    paying taxes. Maybe that is why Europe likes cash.
    
    p.s. the $1,000 in cash from a "banking" institution is an old number I
    am sure the amount has changed.
    

Cash is not king in the USA.  You can cancel a credit card
when its stolen or lost. You cant cancel $250 if its stolen or
lost.

Also, there are laws about carrying large sums of cash
in the USA. You'd be looked upon very suspiciously by the 
local police if you got stopped and they discovered you had
a $10,000 bank roll in your pocket.  Suffice it to 
say, large cash transcations require appropriate
documentation.  Selling drugs is typically a cash only 
venture, if you see my point.

On a smaller cash note, ever walk into a convenience
store with a sign 'no bills larger than $20 accepted"?
Many dont keep more than that in the open cash
drawer in case of robbery.....its all locked in
a safe they dont have access to.

Most days I'm carrying large if I have $5 in my pocket.
If a place of business doesnt take a credit card I usually 
go elsewhere.  That doesnt happen very often

I never buy computer goods cash.  I get double the
warranty when I use my credit card, plus I get 
charge dispute if the vendor wont deal with me
properly after the sale.  Cash == no leverage.

--Bert

Deposits over $10K are reported to the IRS.

    Re .475:
    
    > If you depoisit or withdrawn more than $1,000 in cash from a
    > "banking" institution, they must report it to the IRS.
    
    The limit is $10,000, and it can be set higher if the bank has a
    "relationship" with the customer, e.g., a merchant who regularly makes
    large deposits.  Also, I think the report is made to the Treasury
    Department, not necessarily the IRS.
    
    
    Re .476:
    
    > Also, there are laws about carrying large sums of cash in the USA.
    
    No, there are not.  There are laws about reporting large cash
    transactions, but not about carrying cash.
    
    > Suffice it to  say, large cash transcations require appropriate
    > documentation.
    
    Banks and car dealers (and maybe certain others) must report the
    transactions.  The customer does not.  The report asks for some
    information about the purpose of the transaction, but the bank or
    dealer only reports whatever the customer says.  Someday I'm going to
    move $10,000 in cash from one bank branch to another and tell them the
    purpose is "whimsy".
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

> Also, there are laws about carrying large sums of cash in the  
>USA.        
>>No, there are not.  There are laws about reporting large cash    
>>transactions, but not about carrying cash.

Federal laws about seizure of drug profits (cash and otherwise) 
are used very liberally.  Maybe too liberally for a country that 
proclaims innocent until proven guilty.  That's another note 
though.

If you want to test it, load up 15k in 100's and drive 100mph 
down I25.  You will have to prove where that money came from 
after they get done searching the car and arresting you..if 
you want it back. I'm not sure if its federal law, or state 
law that's enacted in these cases, but I see news about
the confiscation of money all the time.  My point was, I 
would carry some documentation about where the money came 
from and what you intended to do with it, to avoid such a 
situation.  Driving the speed limit helps, too.  8^}

Certainly carrying $15k in cash is not an everyday
occurance in the USA unless you are the Amored Car
pickup guy....and then you get to strap on a .357 
magnum.

--Bert (48 cents in my pocket)

    >Someday I'm going to move $10,000 in cash from one bank branch to
    >another and tell them the purpose is "whimsy".
    
    :-)  :-)  :-)  Thats great!  I like it!
    
    I guess I'm getting a picture here.  In the US, there tends to be a lot
    more concern over the quality of goods and the ability to get
    compensation when merchandise quality isn't as expected.  Lechmere is a
    good example of a store that will take back anything (except opened
    music or software).  Nordstrom (do I have the right store?) supposedly
    will take back things that weren't even bought there.  In the US,
    warranties and extended warranties are BIG business.
    
    On the other hand, the European trend seems to be toward minimizing the
    initial outlay.
    
    Tentatively, I'd attribute this to the concept of responsibility.  I
    heard the other day that a golfer is sueing a golf course because he
    got hit with a ball.  This attitude of wanting to make someone else
    take responsiblity for your actions creates large markets for
    warranties, insurance (I understand a firm now offers insurance against
    alien abduction - can't wait till someone submiots a claim!) and of
    course, litigation.
    
    My impression is that Europe is not so strongly oriented that way. 
    
    On the other hand, in Europe its harder to find restuarants with no
    smoking sections!  :-)
    
    jeb
    

Right.. Extended warranties are Big business.  Mostly because they are 80% 
profit!  They charge you a LOT (often overlap the non-extended warranty) and
if it is a good product they never have to do anything.  The only time these
things are good are if you use a product more than the MFG expected you to do
I.E. someone who uses a VCR for 20 hours per day.

re: return policy

Hmm, if I bought a 10K system at CompUSA with cash and returned it, the odds of
them having my cash are slim.

bjm

    I was at the COMP USA in Nashua this afternoon and by using the Digital
    discount I save from 20% to 55% on the items I brought. I paid for them
    with a check and only had to show my driver's license. On the way out
    the "cop" just punched my receipt and didn't look to see what I had in
    my bag.
    
    If I have to show some id to use a check and save from 20% to 55% on my
    purchase that is fine with me.
    
    

    re .483
    
    If you're happy, that's great.  I'd suggest, though, that if you're
    going to use more than one check a day at one or multiple COMP USAs,
    you do it during banking hours.  Otherwise you'll find out that while
    you think you only have to show your driver's license, your checking
    account number is going through a screwy approval system they have, and
    you'll be rejected.
    
    Your savings will range from 0% to well over your figure of 55%,
    depending on what you buy (hint: buy a lot of cables and stuff like
    floppy drive cleaning disks).
    

    Interesting....I was told by my local CompUSA store that Corporate
    discount rates are determined on a regional basis! Now, I would have
    thought that a corporate discount would be the same no matter where in
    the USA you might be.
    
    Is this REALLY true, or was I getting some story to justify a lesser
    discount?
    
    /jim
    

I went to the CompUSA here in Colorado Springs about two weeks ago, and was
shown the entry in the discount book.

	Software: 0%.
	Hardware: 0%.
	Accessories: 12% over cost.

This is different from the discount that I was allowed last December, and
different from what folks are mentioning in this conference, so pehaps it is
regional.

Could there be an issue with the definition of "hardware" and
"accessories"??

In the Nashua NH store, for example, you buy hardware items like disk
drives, tape drives, CD Writers (including Zip disks, writable CD discs
etc) and so forth in the "Upgrades" section of the store. I've never had
a 0% discount quoted to me.

Art

In December I bought software at 12% over cost.
In May I was shown "no discount" for software.

    I just purchased the MS Greetings package (Hallmark) at a COMPUSA in
    Atlanta. The shelf price was $29.95 and my discounted price was $21.xx.
    Must be a store to store translation of the discount agreement.

    Within the last 2 months I've purchased hardware, software and
    acessories at the Colorado Springs CompUSA.  The only time I haven't
    gotten a discount was on purchases less than $25. On occasion I have
    found that sale items were already at a lower price than the corporate
    discount price.  Just take the item to the corporate sales desk and ask
    what the Digital corporate price is.  If you don't like the answer, try
    it again later when there is a different person at the desk.
    
    Jerry