Conference 7.286::digital

    Noting by managers is the high tech equivalent of MBWA: Management by
    Walking Around (Management by Wandering Around, if you prefer).  I
    feel it's THE critical means of keeping in touch with what folks are
    thinking.  I'm hoping there are more read-only managers than are
    represented by the number of writers.
    
    Marge

    In my small piece of the Digital world, my manager is a strong
    participant in a notes conference restricted to managers only.  Since
    our group is spread across the country (and sometimes the world), these
    managers have found that notes are the only way they can keep up with
    business.  Mail doesn't work for them because they get so much mail
    that they read and delete most of it.  Notes are more economical and
    easier to keep track of.  But we all know that, right?!?

    As to why more managers do not use notes (and there are a number who
    are active in this conference), could the problem be that they do not
    feel comfortable with this method of communication?  Is it too "techie"?
    Do they lose one of the major parts that make them good managers, one-
    on-one communications skills?  Notes do not allow the participants to
    see the body language (except for smiley faces).

    I too have heard the negative comments about Notes but I can usually
    show that the benefits outweigh the "lost time".  Any other opinions??

    Lee G.

    
    How about managers who have forced the shutting down of VAXnotes
    conferences because "they didn't support" such things?
    
    I agree with your assessment.  However, as the concept of VAXnotes
    escalates the peer-to-peer flow of information and new ideas, there
    will grow an ever increasing awareness, which will lead to positive
    change. 
    
    One must look to history to realize that the quest for power has
    always propelled those who wanted control and that the one of the
    major exercises of power is the control of information, be it downward,
    side-to-side, or upward, and whether it be by governments, managers
    or even parents.
    
    Fortunately, most people welcome the interactive exchange of ideas and
    information.  If one just looks to the increased usage of VAXnotes
    within Digital over the last five years, one can easily see an ever
    increasing number of participants out of the potential (?) total of
    90,000 DECies on the Digital network. 
    
    Someday the concept of VAXnotes (perhaps even Digital's technology)
    will be on everyone's television with everyone able to communicate
    DIRECTLY with hundreds of thousands, if not tens of millions.
    
    As the interactive exchange of information, ideas and thinking
    escalates, I foresee greater cooperation versus competition, making the
    need for "professional" managers more and more superfluous, and making
    the need for "leaders" who can really inspire people to greater and
    greater heights of success. 
    
    If one thinks back to the early years of Digital, was not there
    a GREAT espirit de corps and cooperation toward working to a common
    goal of building something great and achieving success where the
    need for supervisors was minimal?  Is it not this type of environment
    that leads to genuine creativity, a necessity within a company within
    a high-tech industry?
    
    But at the other extreme of control of the free flow of information,
    peer-to-peer, namely the USSR, where it is illegal to own a typewriter
    or copying machine, is this not conclusive evidence that controlling
    information and ideas literally kills creativity, leading to stagnation
    of organizations and society?
    
    The precepts of what Digital preaches are sound but the internal system
    fails to teach and coach new (and existing) managers on how to stay on
    the path of the values, ethics and philosophies encouraged by Ken Olsen
    and the culture of DEC of the past.  Where are the "value" DEC courses
    one MUST take before becoming a manager in Digital? Many in management
    feel that a "right" that goes with becoming a manager is the right to
    "control" others, and with that, the flow of information going up or
    coming down -- a right that has been accepted as normal for the last
    five thousand years. 
    
    I agree with Carl (the astronomer) Sagan's observation in his
    television series COSMOS that if society had nurtured cooperation
    instead of competition and control, the human race by now would be
    established on planets within hundreds of star systems.  Instead, we're
    still squabbling about who's in charge and in control with the ones
    doing all the work expected to just say "yes sir! and how high, sir"
    when someone with "manager" after his name says, "Jump."  While this
    may still work in an agrarian "plantation" type of business, I submit
    it becomes detrimental in a high-tech organization that is leading the
    world in the effective application in new information technology. 
    
    If Digital practiced what it preached, and utilized internally all
    of our 'current" technology, some would argue the company would
    be generating as much profit as the "you know who" so-called leader
    in the industry, who many would say creates nothing really new in
    the industry.
    
    So, what might some solutions be?  Perhaps a new Renaissance, bringing
    the "small company, entrepreneur" type working atmosphere back where
    creativity, be it anywhere in the company, could flourish in winning
    and keeping customers, and in developing, creating and delivering
    products and services that optimize technolgy while matching customer
    wants.  How to bring that about?  Better coaching of ethics and
    values of what Digital preaches and other "systems" that put checks
    and balances in place to control bureaucracy and the stifling practices
    of professional bureaucrats.
    
    Just a thought.
        

    As far as I can tell all the managers in my group use Notes to
    some degree. I've only seen one of them post anything though but
    that doesn't mean too much as we visit different conferences.

    I maintain the mailing list for EASYNOTES.LIS (send mail to
    CVG::EASYNOTES to get on the list) and receive quite a bit of
    mail to that account. I don't usually read mail sent there on
    a regular basis, that's a batch jobs job, but from time to time
    I do. One of the things I've noticed is that a lot of the personal
    name strings include the word "manager" or some variation thereof.
    So I believe that there are a lot of managers who read notes.

    I also know that in some of the work related conferences that I
    follow managers and supervisors make a large number of replies.
    I know this because I know the individuals or the organization *not*
    because they identify themselves as managers. Likewise I know that
    there are a large number of middle managers who read *this* conference
    on a regular basis. Many of them don't write though. Mostly, I believe
    that managers believe that if they have nothing to say than they
    don't say anything. This is not bad. Especially if by keeping a low
    profile they can 'listen' better.

    Of course, some managers do reply. They don't usually identify
    themselves as managers though. Why should they? This is DEC were
    peoples words are judged on their merit and not the title of the
    person who wrote/said them.

    			Alfred

    Certainly in Canada we do NOT practice what we preach when it comes
    to computing.  Our internal style is awfully like that other computer
    company's - terminals to central machines.  In fact, they're even
    intending to remove the central machines in the field, giving us
    terminals to a corporate glass house.  (This will cleverly eliminate
    the possibilities of practical VMS services for DOS and LAVC's for
    'stolen' VAXstations - no-one would be able to justify the cost
    of a 2400 mile ethernet.)
    
    As to .1, perhaps we need MBWU - Management by Waking Up - in many
    areas.
    
    With respect to notes:  my manager reads a lot of notes conferences,
    but then again, he's a field person at heart.
    

    I'm not sure what to make of all this.  My paranoia just keeps putting
    all those managers who (apparently) read but don't speak up against all the
    restrictions and removed/hidden notes.  Then again, it might just
    be that time of the morning...

    Did anyone read the interview Digital News had with KO last year?
    They noticed that there wasn't a terminal on his desk.  When they
    asked about it, the reply was, "I make computers, I don't use them"
    (or something like that).
    
    If Digital News says it, it must be true, right?

Here's an alternate view... purely paranoid..

I belong to a group called "IN-DEC" a internal field orginization who's soul 
purpose is the support Digital itself. notes are discouraged not because of 
the exchange of valid information but because of the danger of promoting job 
dissatisfaction. Because we do business so differently there is a liberal 
supply of "Personal interpretation of policy". Notes are free forum's for just 
about any subject from Fleet vehicles to Marketing and any one can present 
cross viewpoints that although they are Corporate they are not In-dec and do 
not provide the conciderations for differing business viewpoints.

	As a DEC employee who thinks notes is great (47 entries in notebook),
 and one who's job and career is now management  I'll now put in my own
 contribution to the DEC way of working.

	I try to manage by wandering around. Only a little difficult because
 my group is spread over 4 buildings on two sites. I try to go on shift to
 see the second and third people on their time. 

	I do a lot of reading of the notes. Most of the time my viewpoints
 have already been stated by someone else and to add the clutter of the
 "I agree", and "me too" replys doesn't seem right. I use notes as an 
 informational tool to make my life easier. I like information not noise.
	I've had a workstation on my desk for the last two years. The 5 
 VSxxx that we ordered how many moons ago finally came in. 
	I don't use all of what we preach to the world. I've no use for
 the commercial office system we sell. The menu's and it's overhead just
 destroy the simplicity of DCL and layered products. 
	I've tried and somewhat succefully (from my eyes) avoided the "it's
 policy so do it" trap. I try to get the people who work with me to have 
 real buy-in to what needs to be done. Not buy-in because I'm the boss.
	
	My last comment and then back to lunch and reading....My statements
 are about me and how I work at DEC as a manager. It's neither the right
 way, or the wrong way. 		/jon

	 

    re .9
    
    >  and one who's job and career is now management  I'll now put in my own
    
    Well Jon, you may be a manager now but I'll bet you're still a hacker
    at heart :^)
    
    /Harley_who_hacked_many_nights_(on_an_RCA_Spectra_70)_with_Jon_at_WPI
    
    Oh, yeah...
    
    > 	As a DEC employee who thinks notes is great (47 entries in notebook),
    						     ^^ What a WIMP :^)
    I have more than 47 markers in Hackers alone...

    >With respect to notes:  my manager reads a lot of notes conferences,
    >but then again, he's a field person at heart.
    
    Well, I suppose I could say that this manager is a hacker at heart and
    therefore I don't count.  I think the same can be said for many
    engineering managers.
    
    The cross that I daresay most managers have to bear is information
    overload, and meetings-bloody-meetings.  So many mail messages, so
    little time.  Notes?  Who's got time for notes?  Some managers don't
    even read or send their own mail.
    
    I don't know if anybody would like to debate whether a "management
    resource" would be more effective without a terminal on their desk.
    
    --Simon
    (noting on a local holiday)

    
>    Well Jon, you may be a manager now but I'll bet you're still a hacker
>    at heart :^)
    
>    /Harley_who_hacked_many_nights_(on_an_RCA_Spectra_70)_with_Jon_at_WPI
    
 	My secrets revealed. My alter-ego brought to light.

>    I have more than 47 markers in Hackers alone...
                          ^ not markers- entries in NOTES$NOTEBOOK.NOTE ie
                            numbers of conferences followed/read/used as 
                            information sources.

	/jon_who_on_occasional_wednesday_nights_had_a_beer_with_Harley

    I'm an ex-Specialist who is now a Manager and would like to agree
    with .1's view of notes. I read this conference mainly and I think
    it helps me understand what some people feel about various issues.
    In turn it sometimes helps me develop my own opinions/decisions.
    
    As an aside...I enjoy listening to all the opinions and I find that
    the old axiom "there's two sides to every story" is so true! My only
    dissapointment in general is that there seems to be so many people
    who have  a dis-trust of management as a group. 
    
    It's just a comment that as someone who really does love to 
    manage - it's sad to see.
    
    Phil
            

    re: .13
    
    I have somewhat of a distrust of mgmt probably because I haven't been
    at Digital long enough to lose it.  Because we have hired so many new
    people in the past x (pick some number) years, we have a giant influx
    of people who haven't yet learned to trust mgmt yet, so we get the
    equivalent of the baby-boom bulge in the trust curve. 
    
    Others who have been here for a while may have that distrust because
    things have changed such that they feel that mgmt has lost their trust.
    This feeling can be increased by the large number of external mgmt
    people hired recently.  Until these folks learn to trust their mgmt
    and learn how Digital works, I think this perception will exist.
    
    I find myself moving more towards the trust end of the spectrum,
    but get pushed back towards the other end when things like the Car
    Plan A mess come up, etc.

    First impressions do count and the sense of family I felt when I
    joined Digital has helped me quite a bit.  I must remember to try
    and pass that same feeling along to other new people I meet.
    
    Bob

I'm glad to see some managers perusing notes.  It doesn't seem the case for 
PCSA though (my speciality).  When I joined Digital I was impressed by what I 
perceived as its flexibility and internal commitment to providing the best 
possible solutions.  Let me relate one war story to you (I've got a folder 
full), and perhaps you'll start to see why I'm rapidly losing faith.

Digital is publicly committed to integrating the desktop, and under NAS this 
includes MS-DOS, Mac and OS/2.  The current PCSA product set does many things 
very well, but it also has significant weaknesses.  In terms of the current 
PC-LAN market breakdown we are getting clobberred (we are in the 1% category) 
by the Novells and 3Coms.  Mind you, this is a market all the industry 
analysts say will explode in the next five years.

One of the weaknesses that customers and Sales Support (and to be fair the 
software engineers at PCSG) have been complaining about for years is the lack 
of an adequate PC based mail product.  Customers simply don't see having to 
VT220 TE onto the VMS server to perform mail as integrated.  It means having 
to learn a set of skills outside their comfortable DOS environment (which we 
have promised to preserve).  This lack has been bitterly debated in VAXMATE 
(now write-locked) and PCSA notes conferences for years.  It is one topic 
almost guaranteed to surface periodically, and it runs something like this:

SWS person: "My customer is demanding a full function PC based mail product".
SWS person 2: "Mine too".
SWS person 3: "And mine".
PCSG Engineer: "Love to help.  Talk to the Product Manager".
SWS person: "Who?  You mean they don't read notes?"

After on particularly acrimonious session I mailed one of the PCSG engineers 
(part follows, names removed to protect the guilty):

"Perhaps we can sort this out once and for all.  Who are the product managers,
and how do I find out?  You see, not only am I not in Massachussetts, I'm not
even in America!  Why don't we have a functional directory?

"You see, I've noted time and time again that people in the field, like myself,
make criticisms or complaints or suggestions, and the developers insist that
we contact the relevant pm.  However, outside the States we don't have a clue
who they are, and that is why everytime someone from PCSG or NAC suggests this
you'll almost always get the question back.

"I'd dearly love to bend a few product manager's ears, if only I could get to
them.  I do LOTS of PCSA presentations, installations and the like, and I (and
apparently heaps of others) am fed up to the back teeth with having to say No,
we can't do what Novell/3Com/Banyan etc have been doing for years.  Like mail.
It seems strange that in a company with such an extensive network internal
communications are so poor.  

"As an aside, I find it very strange that pms don't monitor the notes files.  
EM is all well and good, but after all it is in the conferences that all the
interested parties get together and natter about what they can/can't/would like
to do.  That's probably why field people keep coming back and talking about
things that developers/managers etc keep telling us we shouldn't be talking
about - the conference is our major source of support, both technical and
moral.  For example, I'm one of only two PCSA specialists in my branch, and
regional support is interstate (and interstate in Australia means a LONG way
off.  Ever been to a country where we could throw several Texas' into the 
outback and never know they were there?).

"To finish, I do understand the developers' concerns.  I have been a programmer
(TP/database applications, network, PC applications) for years, and I do 
understand project life cycles, with their inherent delays and so on.  I have
no wish to dump on the developers.  Its just that like so many others, I'm
using the communal forum of the conference because there is (seemingly) not
much else I can do.

"I hope this missive clarifies some of the frustrations of trying to provide
the best possible support to customers when you're 10 000 miles away from
the centre of things."

His answer (in part):

"Wow...point taken.  I spent a half hour this morning trying to find
out just who our product managers are.  You see, we don't even know.
All we know is that occasionally if we make a statement that is
'inappropriate' for a public notesfile, word leaks to above and
someone comes down and tells us we can't do that.  We always ask why
not, but the pat answer is 'questions like that should be sent to the
product manager'.

"I have posted answers to questions people had (such as [deleted]) and was 
told to hide them.  You've probably seen some of my hidden or deleted notes.

"Note that we do not ignore anything that is posted in the notesfile.
Even when we come back with the 'contact PM' answer, we keep our own
wishlist and try to implement what we can, when we can.

"You might be interested to know that we get LAD/LAST, LAT and a VT220
emulator running under OS/2 as midnight hacks almost a year before
Management decided 'lets support OS/2'.  We've also done numerous
things that were never 'sanctioned' such as adding support and
workarounds so our stuff will work on 'unsupported' clones.  

"We do listen, but we have to play the politics as well.

"Best bet is to contact them about futures and special requests.  If
no luck there, post your attempt in the notesfile and let other
people know of the problems with PMs."

Now, just to raise our hopes high enough to have them thoroughly dashed, with 
the PC LAN Server 2000 came PCMAIL.  A PC based mail product!  Great!  (Then 
we saw its functionality).  I've had prospects take one look at PCMAIL and go 
blech.  The crazy thing about this is that all the time we've been losing 
sales we've had an internal hack called MAILSTUFF.  Written by a PCSG 
engineer, it is not only functionally superior to PCMAIL, but actually 
precedes it.  I think its up to Rev 6 or something, and is certainly well and 
truly field tested!  But, there's someone in the ivory tower resolutely 
resisting all efforts to get MAILSTUFF released as a product.

Is PCMAIL going to get better?  Not in the near future.  Here's something from 
one of the engineers working on it:

    "As I said earlier, I hope to add the ability in PCMAIL to attach
    binary files in V2.2. Management didn't want any new functionality
    added for V2.2, so I can't unilaterally add it."

Draw your own conclusions.

So, the managers don't read notes, at least half of them don't answer their 
mail, Digital keeps losing sales (and credibility), and people in the field 
(like me) start wondering whether it's worth while.

By the way, did someone earlier say something about managers having too many 
meetings?  According to the Master's Thesis on Notes (in 735) notes are 
supposed to complement and reduce the number of face-to-face meetings, not 
compete with them.

Sorry to have been long winded.  I won't even mention Mac or OS/2 connectivity 
(oh dear, I promised myself I wouldn't start on them).

d

    re .14
    
    You can't learn to trust someone/something.  Trust is something
    which must be earned over time.  In the meantime, however, you can
    learn to tolerate and cooperate.
    

     re 15.

    Not being able to find a product manager sounds unbelievable,
    his name is on a front page of any phase review document, something
    engineer use all the time. If not, CSSE engineer for a product will
    certainly know. To get to right one, ask any CSSE engineer for help.

    re 0.
    There are few managers that occasionally contribute to our local 
    conference, so, it's not that black and white.
    	

        re .15
        
        Of course, your regional resources, who are only a few hundred
        miles away, and are on the same extended telephone system, and
        computer network, know exactly how to get in touch with Product
        Managers. If you elevated issues through your own organization to
        allow them to gather support and momentum (or are yu the only
        person that finds a problem here), you would find they go where
        they are going a lot faster and with a lot more chance of success.
        
        
        Just because a Product Manager, does not choose (they are busy
        people) to actively solicite your input doesn't not mean  they are
        doing any less fo their job...
        
        q
        

    re .-1
                 
>        Of course, your regional resources, who are only a few hundred
>        miles away, and are on the same extended telephone system, and
>        computer network, know exactly how to get in touch with Product
>        Managers.                                                     
                                                                       
    I only wish life was as simple as your dream world.  Have a chat   
    to John Koole about it.  I did.  I put very similar points to him  
    that I put in my EM, and his response (being a regional product    
    manager, unlike yourself) was not nearly so blase.                 
                                                                       
>        If you elevated issues through your own organization to
>        allow them to gather support and momentum (or are yu the only
>        person that finds a problem here), you would find they go where
>        they are going a lot faster and with a lot more chance of success.
                                       
    Oh I have, and many other people besides.  Even when we gather the local
    support and our needs head over the pond they founder on the
    rocks of managerial insensitivity and narrow-mindedness.
    
    Obviously it can't all be like this, or we'd be going nowhere, but
    in my area it certainly is the case.  I chose the mail example because
    it's international.  Just peruse the relevant conferences.  Perhaps
    more than any other topic I can think of relevant to PCSA the mail
    issue is the one that generates the most bitterness in the field,
    everywhere, because the management simply refuses to acknowledge
    or ratify that we know what our customers need better than it does.  

    re: finding the product manager.  A good place to start is to check the
    author's name on the relevant Sales Update articles.
    
    No one in this corporation is required to read notes or to respond to
    them.  It is a forum for exchange of information and ideas, but it is
    not a formal escalation process.  Once it becomes a formal escalation
    process, there will be rules and regulations which govern its use,
    something none of us wants.
    
    MBWA, yes; escalation, no.
    
    Marge

    In the past when I had a need to find a product manager I have always
    gone to the Option and Module List, or "The Dick Best book".  I don't
    have one around me know, but in the field FS logistics always tend to
    have it.
    
    If you look  for  a  model  no.    there is a product mgr column with
    his/her initials.  At  the  beginning  of  the  book you can find who
    those initials belong to.   Even  in  the case when the name is wrong
    usually that person can direct you.
    
    /OLD
    

        For a person out in the field who doesn't ALREADY know how
        to track these things down (say, for instance, someone who's
        only been with DEC a couple of years and spent most of that
        time on site delivering PSS services), how do they learn all
        these wonderful tricks?
        
        The Option/Module List is an extremely helpful resource for
        existing products, but is worthless for figuring out who is
        responsible for the development of future/new products, esp.
        so for software products.  (You can sometimes at least get
        to the right organization by looking for a similar hardware
        product.)  Looking at articles in Sales Update works when the
        product manager's name is published on the article.  In the
        recent issues announcing the desktop products, DECwindows,
        and so forth, NO NAMES WERE PUBLISHED for any of the articles.
        The suggestion to talk to CSSE is a wonderful one, and works,
        if you can find the name of a CSSE person in the right product
        organization.  And so on..
        
        Tom

    Finding the people responsible for a product isn't easy, even within
    engineering.  But suppose it were easy, ...
    
    Personally, I find listening to Notes somewhat akin to listening
    to customers at DECUS.  (I didn't miss a single DECUS symposium
    from Fall 1976 to Fall 1980.)  You have to remember that DECUS isn't
    representative.  Likewise, neither can you depend on notesfiles
    exclusively for product feedback.  You learn a lot by listening,
    though.
    
    I can't make any comments about PCSA because I know nothing about
    it.  But on general principle I believe that when (or if) product
    managers are ignoring what the market says, then following notesfiles
    of their products probably wouldn't make much difference anyway.
    
    The signal-to-noise ratio in notesfiles may or may not be worse
    than in any other medium, but it's depressingly low in general-purpose
    product-related notesfiles. 
    
    For product requirements, if we're to use the Notes medium, then
    products should have Phase 0 input notesfiles.  I'm not too sure
    though about the success rate of this type of notesfile.  The only
    thing I'm sure it can be used for is to identify the product managers
    to whom to send the product requirements in whatever form they prefer. 
    
    --Simon
    

    Re: .22
    
    It's funny you should mention this Tom.  Last Friday at our local
    Software Delivery Unit meeting, one topic came up that I think somewhat
    surprized the UM's.
    
    That is that we specialists in the field often do not know how to
    get certain pieces of information when we need them, or don't even
    know where to start!
    
    What we did was begin the construction of a local reference manual,
    that discusses everything from how you get put on distribution lists
    to all the support center numbers.
    
    In my opinion, in general it is not super difficult to get information
    from within Digital (depending upon what you are looking for and
    if you are allowed to have that information of course).  But there
    are times, when it would be easier to drive your car to the moon
    than to be able to get certain bits of info you really need, or
    let certain people in charge know what's going on.
    
    So much for my $.02,
    
    Doug

    
        
    Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe Noting is the
    corporate way of information/feedback gathering. That task is exactly
    what the escalation process is there for! A formal channel where
    questions, flames, ... can be channeled to wherever appropriate
    AND TRACKED. Your feedbacks thru the escalation process is supposed
    to be numbered and there is some mysterious mechanism whereby some
    poor soul will ensure that it doesnt disappear down a blackhole.
    
    The Notes conferences are just interested people getting together
    to share informations/ideas... I don't know if it applies elsewhere
    but in my list of BMS codes, it is specifically stated that "Browsing
    notes conferences are NOT self-learning. ie it is G time. Just goes
    to show how informal Noting is.
    
    So if you want to use Notes to obtain information, don't be fustrated
    if you don't get what you want, cos no one's is obliged to read the
    notes conferences much less respond. Even if you send Email to
    individuals, they have no obligation to respond either. Can you imagine
    how many mails some people get? However the escalation process ENSURES
    (supposedly) there will be an answer. I'm not saying escalation works
    all the time, but it is SUPPOSED to. If yours doesn't work, let your
    manager handle that. 

    Cheers,
    Heng-Wah Choy_who_is_definitely_not_a_manager_but_whose_boss_does_notes
    

    re: .25
    
    What is "G time"?
    
    	- Jerry

    re .25
    
    I know that Notes is not currently an approved or authorised
    information or problem solving resource.  The question in .0 is
    whether it, and similar peer-to-peer products should be.
    
    I know we supposedly have a set of escalation procedures, but again,
    the question is whether, because they're tied into a hierarchical
    management structure, they're part of what's holding us back.
    
    The question, with notes used purely as an example, was: DOES DIGITAL
    WORK THE WAY WE TELL OUR CUSTOMERS TO WORK (flat structure, horizontal
    information flows, etc, etc)?

    
    Escalation as such doesn't solve any problems, it's a problem management
    process, it just make sure that we do important fixes first.
    Once it's in place, we do use and accomplish lots of work via notes.
    In few cases, these are the official way to exchange information 
    between support, engineering and CSSE.

    Lots of real , high level technical work gets accomplished with the
    help of notes conferences. Our network architects are spread all over
    the planet, notes is one of their more important tools.

    			wlodek

    RE: .26
    
    >  What is "G" time?
    
    "G" Time is work performed by anyone in the company that will be
    charged in the Cost Center Expense Report to Administrative Activities.
    This can be sick time, training, departmental meetings, etc.
    
    For those not required to account for their time, all work hours
    are charged to "G" time.
    
    For those who must account for their time (regardless of wage class),
    time is reported against specific project numbers which have the
    form ANNN-MMMMM where:
    
    		A = G for Adminstrative time
    		    M for manufacturing products
    		    E for Engineering projects
    		    etc
    
    	      NNN = a General class of projects.  E097 for instance
    		    is advanced development work in manufacturing.
    	
            MMMMM = is the specific project that you are recording time
    		    against.
    
    Ken

        Perhaps it's important to "note" that the conferences that are
        part of the official support mechanism are clearly labelled as
        being for that purpose, and are usually sponsored by the group
        that uses them, and closely monitored by that group.
        
        There are a number of general conferences, such as this one,
        that are NOT necessarily effective as support mechanisms. 
        While you *MAY* get accurate and timely information from them,
        you can't *ASSUME* that you will.  Anything you learn from
        them should be double-checked with official sources, and if
        you intend to share the information with a customer, it *MUST*
        be approved by official sources.  Of course, you can do what
        you believe is right in any situation, but it's your neck that
        you're sticking out.
        
        Tom

re .25:

I agree with Tom Blinn (.28) that you shouldn't rely too heavily on "unofficial"
conferences like this one. But "too heavily" is an interestingly vague phrase.

Is the MARKETING conference unofficial? How about OSF? Or ANALYSIS_AND_DESIGN?

To put it another way, if I see a message from Marketing that contradicts what
I saw in the MARKETING conference, I certainly wouldn't assume that the
Marketing message was necessarily right! (btw, the ASIMOV::MARKETING conference
has been described as the marketing forum in which everyone but Marketing
participate - with a few honorable exceptions).

Here's another way of looking at it. OK, so NOTES isn't official, reliable,
authorised, etc. So let's imagine the whole Notes scene goes away tomorrow
at 0900 GMT (all right, you Yanks, EST). What happens to our business? It would
take quite a fall. A thing can be important (or even vital) without being
officially sanctioned. The volume of information that goes through Notes
would swamp official channels. And of course it would be blocked, misrouted,
garbled, attenuated, delayed, and have power games played with it en route.

If anyone is into Crosby's ideas on quality, I think that a Crosby-type
organisation where everyone did what was right and expected to deliver 100%,
would not need much in the way of "escalation" and formal channels. If you
know something's wrong, you fix it, right? Why wait for a writ or a threatening
letter?

--Tom

re .25:

>    The Notes conferences are just interested people getting together
>    to share informations/ideas... I don't know if it applies elsewhere
>    but in my list of BMS codes, it is specifically stated that "Browsing
>    notes conferences are NOT self-learning. ie it is G time. Just goes
>    to show how informal Noting is.
 
Just goes to show how unrealistic your manager is. Not that he's alone in that.

I believe that the one most important feature of our industry today is the
huge AND GROWING information load that needs to be collected, stored, filtered,
indexed, distributed, and maintained. As an exercise, look at some of the
problems we have - failures and foul-ups in internal and customer situations -
and ask "was this caused by ignorance or misunderstanding?" The answer is
usually "yes".

Profits from selling hardware are levelling out - we're already seeing this,
with more demand for low-margin workstations and PCs, less for high-margin
top end systems such as 88x0s. Profits from selling software products in
isolation are also under pressure, because there's a lot of competition, and
customers no longer come and shop for it - we have to win their confidence
in our expertise first. There is some doubt whether we as a corporation really
understand our own business and product set any more, because it's become so
huge and complex. Yet we can't afford to hire more people - anyway that would
make the communications problems even worse.

What follows from this? Just that people must work smarter, more effectively.
To do that they need to be aware of all the major trends in the market and in
Digital, and have a deeper knowledge of a variety of topics that impinge on
their own specialties. This cannot be accomplished by training courses.
Periodicals and papers can help, but NOTES is by far the most efficient,
effective way of allowing our people to understand our products, services,
business, customers, strategies and visions. And all this happens whenever
they have time to fit it in, or whenever they need it!

And all this "is not self-learning, it's just G time"?

Well, G time is loosely defined as "overhead". For some reason, a lot of
people feel that overheads are bad. Well, that's trying to get something for
nothing. If you're honest, you can't do that in the long run. You can do it
for a limited period - that's called "eating the seed corn", "lack of planning",
or "asset stripping". If a manager wants to adopt the policy that when his
people are on a project, their learning time is billed to that project, fine!
But he shouldn't try to bury it, pretend that they don't need to learn. You
might as well try to live without eating or breathing.

"Knowledge decays exponentially" - James Martin. Go on a course, and you'll
have forgotten half of it or more within weeks. Within a year or two, what you
learned will have become obsolete - worse than not knowing anything is thinking
you know something - and being wrong.

--Tom  

    
    Re: Self-learning time....
    
    I'm one of the FEW technical "heavies" at our site. At a minimum,
    a third of my knowledge comes from notes (unfortunately, all during
    OFF hours). I can attest to the USEFULNESS of NOTES.
    
    							Warren
    

    I can also attest to the usefulness of Notes; I don't know how many
    times that I've been able to solve a problem using information that I
    picked up from this or that conference. I work with a Tech Support
    group and I'm ALWAYS preaching to the rest of the group (and anyone
    else who gets within ear/mail shot of me :^)) on how useful Notes can
    be...
    
    F'rinstance, today I was trying to figure out how to get to Tymnet from
    TSN. The only docs that I could find were old, and they had the wrong
    access codes in them. I got into the TSN conference, dir/title=tymnet,
    and I had my answer in no time.
    
    I consider myself very fortunate that my boss agrees 100% with me...
    
    /Harley

    re: the last few,
    
    don't get me wrong guys! I'm a staunch supporter of notes and I
    too believe that I should have a BMS code for Notes Browsing. However
    it is just unlikely to happen (and don't blame my manager 'cos he's
    in the same boat as I am), Notes browsing is just NOT in my job
    description. I think EVERYONE knows that Noting is useful,
    important,... but it is just NOT an official channel. 
    
    btw, if I don't noting is important enough I wouldn't be hanging
    around off hours to do my noting (besides some level of automation).
    I'm in Singapore and it is now 2030 hrs. People here do not get
    terminals at home, so you needn't tell me how dumb it is that noting
    is G time :=(
    
    Heng-Wah Choy_who_really_wanted_a_TTY_at_home_so_I_can_Note!

    For the VAX and MIPS architecture group, our notes conferences are an
    official channel. About 75% of the information we convey to the rest of
    the corporation is done via notes. The rest is mail messages, telephone
    calls, group presentations, and the slowest means of all, by
    publication of DEC STD 032.
    
    For example, if you want to find out what the "official" changes are to
    the VAX architecture since DEC STD 032 was updated last, see the
    Eagle1::VAX notes conference, topic 127.*. (Press KP7 to enter that
    conference in your notebook.) We also use that conference to
    "officially" answer questions concerning the VAX architecture.
    
    Whether notes is "official" or not depends on the group using it. Some
    groups are with it, and some are not.
    
    Tom Eggers
    VAX Architecture Manager (title to make it official)

    
    In response to the original question, I think more managers don't do
    notes merely because they have no time.  As an Executive Secretary, I
    work a lot with high-level management, and I see how their jobs are run
    from an administrative standpoint.  Many high-level managers will
    receive 50-100 electronic mail messages PER DAY!  I can't imagine
    sifting through all that, then having to do Notes (and hardcopy mail)
    on top of it all.  There's just so much information that passes the
    desk of a manager that it can be completely overwhelming.
    
    In relation to notes, I've also known senior managers who will have their
    secretaries monitor important conferences, and the secretary will pull
    out important topics.  So, I think many see the value of Notes, but
    simply do not have the time to keep on top of it all.
    
    FWIW, 
    
    Ruth
    

>     Many high-level managers will
>     receive 50-100 electronic mail messages PER DAY!  I can't imagine
>     sifting through all that, then having to do Notes

I tend to think that is Notes was used more, Mail would be used less.

In the restricted product-related  conferences that I moderate, I end up
     doing  a periodic dump of relevant mail  messages  into  the  Notes
     conferences  for  future  reference and easier look-up.   If  these
     messages originated in the conference, there would not have been  a
     need to email them.

/Mitch

    You don't need to be a Manager to get that number of mails/day.
    
    Andy

    And you don't need to be a manager to not have enough time
    or to be overwhelmed by information, in fact technical folks
    have it worse in the latter area (Not to start another rathole)!  
    
    As the old saying goes 
       ``The person who says s/he is too busy usually has the most time!''