Conference vicki::boats

Standard Communications makes many VHF radios that range in price from 
about $250 to $750 (discount). Last I heard well over half of all VHF 
radio sold were made by Standard (but the competition has increased 
significantly in recent years). My Standard Horizon 78 is 12 years old 
and still works like new. Skipper Electronics (a big discounter) 
publishes a quite informative catalog. They advertise in most boating 
magazines. I personally would prefer to buy from a major VHF 
manufacturer (eg, Standard, Icom). The features of the Radio Shack are 
found in virtually every VHF radio.

    For a low end VHF you can't beat the Uniden 580. Sale price seems
    to be between $139-$159. I have 3 VHF's 2-Uniden and 1- Icom M-55.
    The Uniden have a much better reciever than the Icom, but the Icom
    has many more features, extera channels, scan, etc. Uniden also
    has lifetime flat rate service charges, ($39.95?). I believe Icom
    and Standard do also. I also just ordered a Standard Titan +, should
    be in next week. 
    
    Steve

    'tho I haven't looked to closely, I'd suspect the Radio Shaft marine
    radio is made by Uniden; they now carry a Ham rig made by uniden,
    and I hear rumors that they have more cooperative ventures in the
    works if these two pan out.
    
    Standard is a longtime maker of such gear; they have a good reputation
    and can be gotten mailorder at a good price.
    
    re: .-1: I'm surprised that the Uniden receivers are hotter than
    the Icom... the Icom VHF Ham gear has top-shelf Rx performance..
    
    ...tom

    I am thinking about buying a VHF radio for my boat. A CB radio was
    previously installed. And I have some questions.
    
    I've looked at the catalog from Bliss Marine and three radios have
    my interest, two Standards and a SeaRanger. The first question is
    Standards cost more, why?
    
    For the virtually the same cost you can buy a SeaRanger 7800 which has
    a touch keyboard with lots of features ("programming to scan,
    prioritize, revert, and more", touch-tone - and a "dial" button, PTT
    mike, and 9 weather channels) for $200, or a Standard Explorer II which
    seems to be pretty basic in comparison with no scan, 6 weather channels
    for $190. It claims it has "1 watt automatic low power on FCC
    restricted channels". 
    
    Are the features of the SeaRanger just gimmicks that'll play with once
    and never use, or are they the kinds of things I'll come to appreciate
    and use more and more as I gain experience? Or, assuming Standard to
    have higher quality to match its price, would I be better off with a
    simpler unit that gets the basics right, leaving the frills behind? And
    how many channels require 1 watt output? Is this a special feature, or
    something they all have? I.e., is this a big deal or not?  Is a
    PTT mike normal, or special?
    
    Finally there is the Standard Horizon Galaxy that costs $100 more than
    the Standard Explorer. For that money you get programmable scanning
    (but not a keyboard like the SeaRanger) and a different chassis than
    the Explorer uses. It also has a mike that has a label (it is hard to
    see in the photo if there is a button to go with it) that says
    "PWR/UP". I can make guesses about it, but I don't know if it is
    meaingful. Also one catalog makes mention the this radio has weather
    channels, others do not.
    
    I realize that catalogs don't/can't list all features of all products
    being offered, but the thing about them that makes buying difficult is
    that sometimes they are inconsistent on what they do say about the
    products. (For example; Bicycle 232X includes 2 wheels in addition to
    all the other features listed! Bicycle 100A includes brakes as part of
    its extensive list of features! Does 232X have brakes? Does 100A have
    two wheels?)
    
    thanks again,
    john 

re .4: 

Go to a marine electronics dealer, look at the various models, touch and 
feel, and ask questions. The VHF radio market is VERY price competitive 
and price sensitive. You get what you pay for. Manufacturers make tradeoffs 
between features and quality (for a given price). Some features are 
more useful than others. I have an ICOM handheld with scanning. Sounds 
like a nice feature, but the normal channels are so busy that the poor 
thing never has a chance to scan. Dual watch (ie, on my ICOM monitoring 
channel 16 and one other) would be nice if 16 weren't so busy. (I find 
the inane noise on channel 16 so annoying I leave my radio off 99.99% of 
the time). My Standard Horizon 78 is now 11 years old and still works 
just fine (in spite of ingesting some salt water many years ago). Any 
name brand is good. Be sure to ask about warranty repairs. Standard does 
(or did) have a flat rate for all repairs (after warranty) for as long 
as you own the radio. Getting house brands (SeaRanger, etc) repaired 
might be a hassle. 

    Like most things you get what you pay for, most of the time.
    I own/owned SeaRanger, Icom, Uniden, and Standard radios. If your
    shopping price/quality and don't need scan, I'd recommend Uniden
    (780?) for $139.00 from Baert Marine, Mass/NH. The SeaRanger I 
    had died after 1 hour out of the box. It also didn't have battery
    backup, which is needed if you shut off the battery.
    As for Standard, I am using two, the Titan + and the Galaxy. Although
    the Galaxy and the Titan have about the same chassis, the Galaxy
    seems to xmit/rec better. I tried swapping antennas. The Galaxy
    is also cheaper.
    Standards are also fairly waterproof. They also have a lifetime
    flat rate repair price $65.00 and allow for addition channels
    to be add. This isn't allowed by the FCC.
                                      
    I hope this helps
    
    Steve

    I did plan to go to at least a couple of stores, but I wanted some
    knowledge before walking in. Stores will be happy to answer your
    questions, but they have their own agendas too.
    
    You (usually) get what you pay for. I'd agree with that, but there is
    usually at least one brand in a field of products that depends on its
    name (usually an old one) to sell at a higher price than its
    competition where people are willing to pay the price based on
    precieved qualitiy when in fact its competitors offer a product just as
    good and as well supported, but lack the old brand name so compete with
    a lower price.
    
    Is SeaRanger a "house" brand like Kenmore is to Sears and Realistic
    is to Radio Shack?
    
    Steve, the Standard Horizon Titan+ has a GaAsFET receiver, highly
    touted as being more sensitive so I find what you say about the Galaxy
    to be very interesting. I am not saying I don't believe you, you've
    used them, just that the Titan+ costs more, has a wiz-bang feature, yet
    you found its lower cost sibling to perform better. Do you know if the
    Galaxy has weather bands?
    
    john 

re weather channels: The only VHF radios without the weather channels 
are very old (mid to late 1970s) crystal-controlled radios. All modern 
VHFs have weather channels (anyway I've never heard of any that don't). 
Once you go to frequency synthesis, extra channels are an almost no-cost 
feature.

    The SeaRanger is a house brand. I believe West Marine sell a radio
    that looks like it, but has the West name on it.
    
    The Galaxy does have WX channels, all VHF's I've ever seen do.
    I've looked at the prints for the Galaxy and the Titan +, the
    only difference I can see is the 10 db att. circuit. It is a
    waste of money. It does what the squelch does. The Titan also has
    a CH 16 p_scan and a seperate WX switch. My Titan might be bad,
    I plan on sending it back after the seasons over.
    
    Also, don't overlook the antenna. I've had very good luck with
    Celwave Pd8-5 8ft, 6db antenna. But the cost is high, around $100.00.
    I can usally talk 30-40 miles. This assumes a clear channel and
    good equipment on the other end.            
    
                                    
    Steve
    

re -.1: 

VHF radio is usually line-of-sight, so that the higher the antenna, the 
better. This is one time sailboats have a big advantage -- their masthead 
antennas are 30' to 50' or more above the water. 

    Thanks Steve, though it may sound strange I hope your Titan+ is bad,
    and that you can get it fixed to bring it up to snuff, cause it would
    be a shame to find out that it really wasn't as good as the Galaxy
    after spending the money on it. You understand what I mean I hope.
    
    Your answers were very helpful. The fact that I meant what I said about
    not knowing much about VHF radios, that the Galaxy didn't have a
    specific weather switch on the front (like I could see on the Titan+),
    and that it wasn't mentioned led me to ask the the question. On the
    other switch, I guess the PSCAN (priority [ch 16] scan) would help to
    you use the radio properly - where we are supposed to maintain a watch
    on channel 16 - but it seems to me that if that is what we are supposed
    to do that all scaning should be implemented in that fashion. As you
    said none of it seems to justify spending the an extra $60 - $100
    (depending on where you buy it). 
                      
    john

    Just a couple of random comments from someone who rarely uses marine
    radios, but does use a *lot* of other radios...
    
    1.) Everybody I've talked to seems to think that scan is at best
        marginally useful. 
    2.) At 160MHz, a GaAsFET front end is pure marketing. Strange as
        is may seem, a typically-designed Silicon FET front-end will
        probably outperform a typically-designed GaAsFET front-end at
        160MHz, because the GaAsFET devices are typically optimized
        for performance at much higher frequencies; it takes some serious
        analysis to get them to shine at 160MHz.
    3.) Be careful of high-gain antennas. Omnidirectional antennas get
        their gain by compressing the radiation in elevation; if you're
        in rough seas you may end up pitching enough that you get poorer
        performance from a 6db antenna than a 3db because the radiation
        pattern ends up alternately pointing into the water and into
        the sky.
    4.) Standard and ICOM are both well-respected names in communications.
        Uniden is probably pretty good, too, although not of the same
        quality as the first two.  Given that your life (or someone
        else's) may someday depend on the radio, I'd be wary of weighing
        price heavily in your decision.. on the other hand, you have
        to be reasonable...
    
    ...tom NE1G

    I have a question about licensing. I imagine that if you buy a new
    radio the dealer has all the proper forms that are required, but
    what if yo buy used? How do you go about obtaining a license for
    your VHF radio?
    
    Someone once told me that licenses can't be transfered, which makes
    sense, but the way it was explained made it sound as if it were
    impossible to license a radio that you bought from someone else who had
    used it on their boat. This didn't make sense to me, and would be
    restraint of trade.
    
    The reason I ask is that I've found someone selling a Standard Horizon
    Galaxy that they claim they used for one month with the antenna for
    $200. It was listed in the For Sale note in this notesfile.
    
    john

re -.1:

A station license is for the boat, not the radio. One station license can 
cover many radios -- VHF, SSB, radar, EPIRB -- depending on which boxes you 
check when applying for the license. Station licenses are not transferable. An 
operator's license is (was?) also necessary.

    re:13
    The person who sells should surrender the VHF licence to FCC (read
    instructions on the back of licence).
    The person who buys should call the NE field office of FCC 
    tel.(617)770-3922 and ask to mail you the forms.
    When the forms arrive fill them as per instruction and send them
    to FCC headquaters in Gettysburg PA.I believe,A copy you keep,as
    per instructions again, serves as a licence till you get till you
    get your regular licence,which usually takes 1-2 months.

    I haven't heard anything official, but I bet the VHF will go
    the way of the CB, no license needed. In fact, I tried to send
    back two licenses I had for past boats that were still valid and
    apply for a new one. They send both licenses back with no explanation 
    along with some other paper work. I filled out the forms, a few
    weeks later I recieved my new license. But under catergory it
    has voluntary. Also a friend who owns/runs a party boat had the
    FCC down to inspect his radio equipment, the guy told him that
    a license is no longer needed. The can't keep up with the backlog.   
    I don't know which license isn't needed, the operator or station.
    
    All this makes me believe that some type of changes are in the works. 
                                                                     
    Steve

    I think you still at least need the Station License. The Commercial
    Operator's licenses have gone through a lot of changes, and I'm
    not sure what the status of the Restricted Radiotelephone license
    is.. I have heard that a Commercial license is no longet needed
    to be the engineer of a broadcast station, but the FCC renewed my
    First Class Radiotelephone (as a Radiotelephone General) last year
    anyway..
    
    ...tom

    	I just experienced a problem with my Ratheon VHF (Model Ray 77?) 
    for the first time this weekend. I think its moisture related. The 
    radio was working fine; I shut it off for a while and when I restarted 
    it the LCD display lit up totally. All the LCD bars were activated.
    There was some indication that transmit was still working but nothing
    in receive mode. After trailering home all is well.  
    	My first guess would be moisture, where droplets shorted out
    something and were shaken off during the ride home. Working this
    assumption, I plan to remove the sealed lid and dry it out. What I'm
    wondering is could/should I spray silicone in the set before buttoning 
    it up again?...You know the stuff made for car ignitions. Has anyone 
    had experience doing this? If so what was the outcome?
    	Anyone have similar problems? I know someone else with a Ratheon
    rig who also has the problem but not as severe.
    
    Paul

    
    
    Re .18>
    	I pulled the lid off my VHF last night and gave it a cursory
    inspection. I saw no evidence of moisture, green growth or anything like 
    that, although I didn't disassemble it to its lowest level. The unit 
    appeared to be very well sealed. 
    	I did see something that didn't sit well; a significant amount of
    hand soldered components with lots of flux residues remaining. By
    computer standards this would be an unacceptable unit. We in Mfg are
    always worried about flux deposits and go to great lengths to assure
    ourselves that we have removed them. The problem with flux residues
    is that in a humid environment they can cause corrosion or can create
    conductive paths where they should not be. I can't think of a worse
    environment than that offered by marine application. 
    	I doubt if Ratheon is unique in this area. I think its just part of
    the analog world. I'm sure virtually all brands have a similar number
    of hand soldered wires and caps/resistors/diodes added by test techs for 
    tweeking purposes. I also doubt if they use special flux.    
    	All this rambling has no real purpose except to share my thoughts.
    I think I'll see how often the problem repeats itself and limp through
    the rest of the season. I'll then pack it off to the repair shop for
    servicing.
    
    Paul

    Re. .15, Thanks for the number for the FCC. I called and it was one of
    those ever popular machine recordings with directions (like our own
    IEG). I recorded my name and address as directed for the forms.
    
    Re. .5, I just didn't realize that SeaRanger was a house brand until
    you pointed it out. I saw it at Bliss Marine and never thought that
    they were big enough to have a house brand. Later I noticed that they
    were affiliated with E&B Marine (big catalog outlet I guess) and that
    E&B must be affiliated with Goldberg's since their catalogs are the
    same. So combined there is enough buying power for a house brand. Well,
    I finally found the "real" version, the SeaRanger 7800 is really a Ray
    Jerfferson 7878M VHF radio. I would guess that the SeaRanger would be
    as good/bad and as easy/hard to get serviced as the Ray Jeff. Thanks.
    
    john 

    I'd recommend not removing any of that flux or the globs of solder
    unless you want to realign the unit.  Granted, a vast majority of
    the circuitry won't care, but an extra pF or two here and there
    in the RF/IF will be sorely missed if you remove it..
    
    See, this is my new-found NOTES etiquette. In the past I'd say
      ** do *NOT*, under *ANY* circumstances, muck with it! **
    Probably the best thing to do is clean it all up and realign it,
    but that's not a job for the layman... 
    
    ...tom

    

    Re. .15, .16, .17
    
    I got the forms from the FCC last night. (I called Monday.) Included
    was a Information Bulletin dated August 1987. They checked one item
    to get my attention before sending it to me:
    
    � You need a radio operator license to operate a VHF marine radio
      *only* if you plan to dock in a foreign port, or leave a foreign
      port to dock in a U.S. port.
    
    However it also says:
    
    � Do not operate or install your radio until it has been licensed.
      You can obtain a station license and call sign by....
    
    So, a person doesn't require licensing to operate VHF radio (unless
    they are docking their any where other than the U.S. or if they are
    traveling here from another country), but you must obtain a license for
    the radio station (the boat) itself. Simple. 
    
    The application form, FCC Form 506, includes a temporary license form.
     
    I saw the term "voluntary" on the form at the top where you are
    required to check either A. or B. Checking A means that the ship in
    recreational or that is equiping it with a radio is voluntary on your
    part. Checking B means that it is required for this ship to be equiped
    with a radio. If you check A you will be authorized for VHF and Class C
    EPIRB equipment, any other equipment must be requested for specifically. 
    
    john

    re .21>
    	Tom,
    		I agree. I'm hoping that I'll get by for the rest of the 
    season "as is". I'll send it in to the shop during the off season and
    let them do their thing.
    Paul

    Moved by moderator
    
              <<< VICKI::SIE$DATA0:[NOTES$LIBRARY]BOATS.NOTE;1 >>>
                            -<     PowerBoats     >-
================================================================================
Note 561.0                      Marine radio help                     No replies
HYSTER::COSTES                                        9 lines  29-NOV-1989 12:50
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Marine radio's ????
    
    I'll take any and all advise available on marine radios.  I've been
    told that Icom is the best to buy.  Does anyone agree? How powerful
    of a radio do I need if I'm only interested in venturing out not
    more then 15 miles?  How about antennas, are there real differences
    in antennas.
    
    Tanks in advance
    

    I am an Icom fan (I have 3 of them---2 permanent mounts, 1 hand-held).
    I believe that in VHF radios, you get what you pay for. Icoms are not
    inexpensive, however they are constantly top-rated. Their M56 model can
    be purchased for around $350 or so. The M120 is about $500. Well made,
    lots of features, and well sealed for marine use.
    
    Antennas are important. While I believe that Shakespeare is very good
    quality, Cellwave is generally rated tops. Again the price reflects
    this. Regardless of how far you choose to venture offshore, you want
    your radio to perform when you need it. My advice is not to skimp on
    any of your electronics. When that emergency arises, you'll be glad you
    didn't.
    

    Hi,
    
      I'm in the preocess of purchasing a new boat. As the delivery date
    gets closer I've started to look at the Bells and Whistles that I'll
    need to purchare in the comming season. The first thing on my list is
    to add a good marine radio. So now to my question, The dealer where
    I'm buying the boat carries a brand called Pulstar. He has offered me 
    a pretty good deal I think on his top of the line radio with antenna
    and istallation. I've been looking through several cataloges and found
    no other dealer with this brand.
    
    My question is are any of you folks familiar with the Pulstar brand?
    Would you purchase one or would you suggest going elseware.
    
    Thanks for any help you can provide.
    
    Mike
    
    

What's a "pretty good deal?" Where do you use the boat - lakes? Ocean?
Will the radio be in a radio box?

You can get a marine VHF with all the legal channels and 25 watt output
(plus 1 watt switchable, which the FCC makes them put on all radios),
plus the weather channels, for around $119. You can talk with other
boats and legal shore stations, make telephone calls (via the Marine
Operator), monitor the weather, and call the Marine Patrol or Coasties
when you're in trouble. "Name" radios like Apelco and Standard can be
found in the $159 range 

The only installation is drilling the holes, screwing stuff down and
running wires. If you're reasonably handy you can do that. There's no
tuning involved.

At the other end of the spectrum you can pay $500 for a radio with
the same features as the cheap one above, plus multi-channel watch,
scanning, permanent memory, reversible faceplate, and fully waterproof
construction. It won't have any more transmitter power than the one
above; it may have more receiver sensitivity and better noise rejection.

Antenna and mount recommendations vary somewhat with the application -
that's why I asked where you'll use it. There are some cheap mounts out
there ("zamak") that will be okay for lake use but turn to white crud in
one season in a salt atmosphere. And, a 4' antenna is okay in a lake but
you'd probably want 8' for ocean use.

I believe most of the catalogs (E&B, Goldbergs, etc) have radio and
antenna package deals around $199.

Whichever way you decide to go, there's a lot of experienced boaters out
there reading this NOTES conference and ready to offer advice.

Art

    
    re.26
    
       I think you should have answered your own question when you said
    you couldn't find the brand Pulstar in ANY catalog. Between Boat
    US, E+B, and maybe Goldberg's, they sell ALL of the major brands.
    
      Do you want to buy a brand that ISN'T a major brand???
    
    
    					Kenny

    Kenny's right on...
    
    Jim

    RE: Art,  Thanks for the info. I expect that I'll be asking more
    questions as the season goes along.
    
    RE Kenny, Jim, Thats kind of what I expected but I thought I'd ask
    anyways. Never hurts to asks.
    
    Thanks for the info.
    
    Mike
    
    

      Has anyone had any first hand experiance with Ray Jefferson
    electronics?  I see the name in alot of catalogs lately.

Ray Jefferson has the reputation of low cost, low quality. I don't know 
if the reputation is deserved or not. I've never bought any of their 
stuff. 

I am just wondering if the "Pulstar" in .26 isn't a Uniden Polaris? I've just
never heard of the "Pulstar", that isn't surprising I guess, but the names are
close enough that it seems at least possible that something got lost in the
translation.

john

    
    
    In this month's issue of Offshore magazine there's a large ad 
    for Pulstar.  I don't have it here in front of me, but I seem 
    to remember the ad mentioning that they are a new company/brand.
    They had nothing to do with Uniden or any other brands, and seemed
    to be independent.  The ad listed their dealer network, and there
    were quite a few, including about 12 or 15 places in Massachusetts.
    
    If you'd like more info let me know and I'll bring the ad in,
    or could send you a copy of it.  This is not an endorsement, just
    letting you know that I have heard of them.
    
    Rick W. 

    Hi Rick,
    
    I would be very interested in getting a copy of the article that you
    mentioned. If you could send me a copy to Mike Brophy HL02-2/B10.
    Thank you.
    Mike

    
    Hi Mike,
    It's just an ad for Pulstar, not an article. I'll try to remember
    to bring it in tomorrow.
    
    Rick

    I have a Ray Jeff model 500M, I think.    I've had it for two years
    and it works fine.  Never had a problem with it.  I have a friend that
    has and it works fine.
    
    There's another guy I know of in this conference on node "SEARAY" and
    to the best of my knowledge his works okay too.
    
    I didn't want to spend a lot of money on a VHF because I don't need to
    reach but 10 miles or so.  Since I have an open boat, a waterproof
    radio would have been optimum, but too expensive for my needs.  I just
    tuck it away on rough days or put a cover over it that I made.
    
    /brett
    

I have a PostScript file which lists the approved use of each VHF-FM
channel. It's a decent size to have on the bulkhead near your radio.

For example, it defines the ship-to-ship channels versus the
ship-to-shore channels and so forth.

If you want a copy of the file, send me mail. You can print it on an
LN03R, LPS40, LPS20...

Art

re: .37	: "a guy on node SEARAY" indeed!

I have a Ray Jeff 5000M VHF.  I got it to put it on another boat, but then
bought the Sea Ray and it needed a radio, so...

I've had it on the boat for four years.  The boat's always been kept on the 
water (3 years on fresh, the last year on salt).  The radio is kept on the
boat, in the cabin.  The screws are starting to show some rust, but that's all
I notice (i.e., it still works, and seems to work fine).

Motor Boat and Sailing (or was it Boating?) tested about 10 VHFs (I think it
was last year).  It was a real test -- not just spec comparison (nice for
a change, no?).  The 5000M came out in the middle of the pack on all their
criteria (actually, near the top in some...they were "shocked", as I recall).

It's not the most sensitive rig on the water...but neither is it the most
expensive.  If you're going to be using it for close inshore work, I wouldn't
hesitate to get another one.  I keep looking covetously at ICOMs...but since
this one just keeps on working, it's hardly worth the money to replace it!

Jeff

    I'll give you the short story that I've been told about Pulstar radios.
    There are made offshore to specs approved by the people that used
    to own the President radio line. They sold the President line to
    Uniden. Now they, I believe they are in Maine, want to sell directly
    to stores, not big mail order houses. As for quality, I'd probably
    give them a try. I'm told they offerr close to 1 week turnaround
    on service. The tech comes in one day a week, it appears they get
    very few returns. 
    
    Steve

    RE: Ray Jefferson
    
    I bought a Ray Jefferson VHF in 1987 and kept it on our sailboat in
    saltwater. Never had a problem with it. The sensitivity was excellent,
    especially considering that we used a transom mount antenna. I never
    had a problem with other boats not hearing me. I feel that the
    value/dollar was quite high.
    
    	Howard

    I've got 2 of them, one is down at my lower station (hard wired)
    to 12 volt) the other is a hand held. With the hand held, i've
    been at cuttyhunk and talked to westport. ma. bout 8-9 mi.
    
    as for how they work, just fine. the fixed unit is at least 
    4 yrs. old, the handheld 3 yrs. old. far as i'm concerned
    they're good product...
    
    
    Jim.
    

    Lots of good discussion about VHF radios in general but not much
    specific to hand-helds. 
    
    I have a stinkpot I use for fishing - my friend has a ragtop. On a 
    typical weekend we will use my boat one day and his the next. At the
    moment we don't have a radio on either as we have never ventured more
    than three or four miles off-shore and always seem to have other
    traffic around (you know what Cape Cod is like on a weekend.)
    
    This situation is likely to change in the near future, when at least
    one of us will be using the boat (or boats) mid-week when there is less
    traffic, and will out by himself. We both think a radio is in order.
    
    Given the above scenario, I think a hand-held would be ideal for 
    switching between boats as I am told that a good range assumption for
    almost any brand is 10 to 15 miles (with rubber-duck antenna.)
    
    Any comments on this would be appreciated. In particular:
    
    	prefered brands (ICOM, APELCO, FURUNO, SITEX, etc)
    	features to look for (waterproofing, scan, programmable memory)
    	benefits (or otherwise) of a fixed antenna on each boat
    	minimum power (most say 5W - some reducable to 1W)
    
    Tks in advance.
    
    (By the way - am I right in thinking that APELCO is now part of
     RAYTHEON?)
      
     

    Well, as far as I remember from my FCC permit, the radio can be
    operated from only the boat to which is registered with. My permit has
    my vessel name and registration number on it. My unique call sign
    uniquely identifies my vessel. If there was an emergency and my call
    sign was heard and cross referenced with registration information a
    brief discription of my boat could be given to rescue crews. Of course
    each boat could have its own FCC permit.
    
    Now of course the question is how likely are you to be given trouble
    for operating a handheld from different vessels. Since most people
    never give their call signs I'd say not very.
    
    Hand-helds do not have the power of a "fixed" radio, they can be
    stepped on just when you need it most. I'd go with a fixed system. Once
    the antenna and power supply are established on each boat, and the
    bracket installed, it is easy to move a radio between boats. Given
    the cost of a good  hand-held is high I'll bet that a fixed radio, two
    antennas and an extra bracket could be had for about the same price and
    give better performance.
    
    One person's opinion,
    
    john

    Good input - I hadn't considered the registration issue. Of course, 
    nor had half the people I saw on Old Silver Beach two weeks ago 
    looking at the Bermuda Star and listening in to the conversations 
    between the work boats and the coasties. I talked to one guy who said
    that he lived fulltime at a campground nearby and left his handheld
    plugged in to the mains and scanning whenever he wasn't doing anything
    in particular. 
    
    Maybe the day when they are treated just like CBs isn't too far away 
    (which is a shame because then everyone and his dog will be crowding the 
    airwaves and legit users will have trouble getting help when it is needed.) 
    
    Ah well - that's progress, I guess.
                                                            
    
     

    
      The Coast Guard has set up *their base* antennas to be able to
    receive a 1 watt transmission at 10 miles. I bet they have built
    pretty good sized antennas for this. VHF is pretty clean, and will
    transmit a long way, but don't expect to reach another boat 10 miles
    away or another handheld even closer than that with a handheld. 
    
       Handhelds are nice, but I wouldn't trust one to *reliably*
    communicate over 5 miles. They are good for a backup and for use
    around the marina. The reply in .44 is probably correct; you can
    probably get 2 antennas and a normal/cheap VHF radio for ~$200
    which would still put the total only in the middle of the range
    for handhelds. And that extra 20 watts or so of power would sure
    feel much better.
    
      Most VHF radios will come out of the boat as easily as a depthfinder;
    all you'd need to buy is an extra mounting bracket and power wires
    to make the switches *real* easy.
    
    					Kenny

The range of a VHF depends on the height of the receiving and 
transmitting antennas, the transmitter power, and antenna efficiency. 
The efficiency of the short antenna on a handheld VHF isn't very good. 
Worse, it is only a few feet above the water. The dependable range of a 
handheld VHF is a very few miles -- maybe as few as five miles. I agree 
with the previous replies: Get a 25W VHF, get a good, efficient antenna, 
and mount the antenna as high as you possibly can. Remember, VHF is 
essentially line of sight. The higher the antenna, the better, which is 
why virtually all sailboats have their VHF antenna at the top of the 
mast. 

    To continue the "VHF is line-of-sight" thought, I add this....
    
    Coast Guard stations usually have TWO separate VHF setups.... the
    main one is connected to a REMOTE antenna, mounted HIGH on something
    nearby....  Cape Cod Canal station has theirs on the smokestack
    of the power station nearby.  Newport RI station has theirs on
    one of the Newport Bridge towers.  And so on....  making for
    marvelous comunications with EVERYthing in their areas.  The
    backup set is connected to an antenna on their building (or
    on the lawn outside it), in case the main one fails.  This set
    can do an adequate job for most if not all of the station's area,
    but it's not as good as the remote antenna.  
    
    Murphy (as in "anything that CAN go wrong, WILL go wrong...")
    work in the Coast Guard, too.  The time you get in serious trouble
    just might be the day that lightning has taken out the remote
    antenna, and the backup set just can't quite pick your set up....
    
    By all means, go for a permanent antenna setup.  If you REALLY
    like the idea of a hand-held, how about getting one that can
    connect to a permanent antenna on the boat?  It would be better
    than the hand-held alone....
    
    				- Ed -

    The explanation of the Coast Guard set-up is appreciated. However
    their transmitting power is not limited to 25 watts....
    
    Out there if you have a problem, the best thing to do "isn't always
    to call the Coast Guard" 
    
    Reasons:
    
    1. If your disoriented they won't give you any directions, for
       liability reasons.
    
    2. They are usually too far away if you need help immediatley,
       you may be better off trying to reach someone in the vicinity.
    
    
    This doesn't mean you should never call them, but most times
    they can't help....
    
    
    JIm.

A previous note mentioned this, but to repeat: you'll have to license each 
vessel you're going to use a VHF on.  The only exceptions are dinghies of
vessels that are already licensed. The operator of the radio must be competent,
but doesn't need to be licensed in the US.  To use the radio in Canada, the
operator *must* be licensed.  (That's true for CB too...except in Canada, the
vessel must also be licensed for the CB, which isn't required anymore in the 
US.)  (Note that you're not allowed to transmit from the radio on shore unless 
you're licensed as a shore station.  This includes from the dock!)

For some reason, I seem to remember that you're not allowed to use a handheld
VHF as the primary radio on a boat.  Sounds wierd, but 'twer I you, I'd call 
the local FCC office (when you call to ask for the licensing application!) and
ask.  (How 'bout posting the result of the query here?!)

Myself, I think the far best choice is mounting an 8' antenna as high as you
can on each boat (they make swivel mounts, which makes it trivial to lower
the antenna when you trailer the boat, go under *low* bridges, and the like),
and move an inexpensive VHF between boats.

Jeff

The only requirement regarding the specifics of the VHF Marine radio's size/
power, etc. is that it must be FCC Type Accepted. This deals with radiated
power levels, limits on off frequency radiation, etc., but not that it is or
is not a handheld.

This means that you could use a handheld as your sole radio......but I agree
with the earlier comments regarding limited effective range caused both by
lower power (1-5 watts) and less efficient antennas.

Providing a good quality 6db antenna and a means of connecting to the vessel's
12 volt power source would greatly improve the handheld capabilities.

Seperate licenses are technically required, but now that the FCC is charging
$35 for each new, renew or modify license application........draw your own
conclusion.

Boat safely,
Jerry

    For those of us with small open boats, a handheld is a good relatively
    cheap insurance policy.   I don't care if anybody but the coast guard
    can hear me.   

    We sailed our 17 footer last year with only a hand held. 
    
    Found that 3 miles to be about the limit for boat to boat and still be
    understood. That was at 5 watts. This year the 22 came with a 25 watt
    unit with a base loaded 36inch whip mounted at the top of a 27 foot
    high mast. That makes the base of the antenna something over 30 feet
    above the water line. Have not had the opportunity to establish a
    range, but I know we have been heard in Gloucester while sailing in
    Salem Sound.
    
    We still use the hand held for local boat to boat at 1 watt.

re .52:

But with just a handheld, the Coasties may well NOT hear you. Given that 
25W VHFs are not significantly more than a handheld, I think that the 
higher power radio is the better option. 

    I have a hand held vhf and have found the range limited to about 3-4
    miles on local lakes (ie Quisig). I've been looking at permanent
    antennas to increase my distance. I saw in BASS PRO shops catelog a
    short 36" antenna from Shakespeare that claims to be equal to or better
    than the average 6db 8'antenna. It sells for about $50. I'm pretty
    skeptical but the idea sounds great that way I wouldn't have to dodge
    the antenna when I cast my lures. Any feedback on these antennas ?
    
    Also I called the FCC number and had them send me a licensing kit. it
    look to me like i didn't need a license but it was also pretty clear
    that we couldn't use the radio from shore. Have I misread the data ?
    
    thanks, Don
    

    Be warned that a high-gain antenna may not be the best idea if you're
    going to be in any kind of rough seas.. omnidirectional gain antennas
    get their 'gain' by compressing the radiation pattern in the vertical
    direction; at 15 degrees off the horizontal plane a 6db antenna gets
    pretty deaf.. the result is that if you are rockin' and rollin',
    signals are going to fade in and out.
    
    Of course, how much this affects you depends on how much your boat
    rolls...
    
    A 3db antenna is usually a good bet; if you can get it up high it will
    help out *a lot*. The rubber-duckie antennas on handhelds have very
    poor performance (probably like -6db), so any fixed antenna will be a
    dramatic improvement.
    
    I'd recommend a full-power fixed-mount rig, and a quick-disconnect
    bracket with a mating half in each boat. The controls on fixed units
    are generally much easier to use, and the last thing you want to be
    doing when you are in trouble is fumbling with itty-bitty switches..
    A back-up GelCell is a nice idea, too, but may not be worthwhile if you
    have a dual-battery system in your boat.
    
    You have to get a station license for each boat.
    
    ...tom

    I'm still confused on all the antenna tradeoffs.
    
    If you look at the Shakespeare line, which seems typical you find 
    
    1) A standard 8' 6dbi antenna.
    2) A  5'         3dbi antenna.
    3) A  3'         6dbi antenna.
    
    I don't go very far offshore (5 mile max) and that huge 8' antenna
    seems like overkill.
    
    The 5' antenna seems more in proportion to the boat (20') but is 3dbi.
    
    And the last antenna is only 3' high but has the same gain as the
    first.
    
    Is it a safe assumption that the difference between 1 and 3 is that (1)
    will be 5 feet higher, which is goodness in VHF?
    
    But at least two notes in ths topic (plus something I read elsewhere)
    say that 6dbi is not necessarily better than 3dbi on a small rolling
    boat due to radiation pattern shapes.
    
    So I'm tempted to go with (2), is this reasonable?

     A 5' 3db antenna may be a reasonable choice, but it will *still*
    be of limited range and more important have less *apparent* output
    than a 6db one. That could be important to you 8even* when close
    to shore if you are trying to get through to some one but keep getting
    clobbered by some one with a stronger signal.
    
      Yes, marine VHF is pretty much line-of-sight, so the higher your
    antenna - the better. If you could find a 5' 6db antenna you may
    have the better compromise.
    
      EB Marine lists a 44" 6db SS antenna for $29.88
    
    				Kenny
    

    Well, this past weekend I upgraded my handheld to a real 25W VHF
    (Apelco 5120 - based on my good luck with other Apelco products).  
    Installation easy and the thing works *almost* great (could be heard
    for miles at 1 watt!),  BUT....
    
    1) When I run my LCD depth/fish sounder at the same time, the radio
    makes a loud rushing noise which drowns out any signal. Yeah, the fish
    finder is in the same general vicinity as the radio, and the antenna is
    on the right side of the boat near the drivers seat and thus also in
    the same general area, but 9 out of 10 boats I look at have the same
    configuration.   Any ideas?  
    
    2) (Maybe this is related to #1).  It says I should ground the the
    radio chassis.  To what?  This is a fiberglass boat.  What's ground?
    -12V?  Couldn't be - or they'd have connected the chassis to -12V
    internally?   Don't tell me I've gotta buy one of these copper hull
    mounted grounding plates (big bucks, drag, difficult installation,
    yuck).
    
    3) Every so often, the radio turns itself off.  There is nothing in the
    manual about what might cause this, but I'm suspicious it's low supply
    voltage or something like that since I could make this happen when I
    was practicing the radio controls out of the boat on a couple of 6V
    lantern batteries in series - 25W transmit would turn the set off. 
    Maybe I should run the DC lead directly to the battery with heavy wire
    (although I wasn't attempting to transmit during the random shutoffs).
    
    

    I've been trying to solve the noise problems on several boat and
    three different type of radios, Standard, Icom, and Uniden. My
    radar and color sounder cause lots of noise. The only thing that
    has helped is better antenna cable. I don't believe the noise is
    DC coupled, DC filters on the 12 volt supply won't help.
    
    AS for the second problem, voltage drop at the 5-8 Amps while
    transmititng on 25 watts will cause a problem. This is easy to check
    with a DVM. If you need to run the new wire, 14 gauge min.

    Played with it some more.   Curious that if I loosen the antenna
    connector at the back of the set such that only the center conductor is
    making contact I get no difference which leads me to wonder what the
    shield on the antenna cable is doing!
    
    re: .-1 Better antenna cable?  What kind?  The antenna end of my cable
    is permanently hooked to the antenna and the whole length couldn't be
    more than 5 feet.  How do I make the cable "better"?
    
    I was going to try a DC filter but .-1 makes me hesitate (they want $20
    for them at boat/us).

    Well this file is pretty good on advice, but there seems to be a
    lack of fixes for your problem. As for different cable I think I
    cut all but a foot of the rg58 that is molded into the antenna off.
    Soldered on a connector, then used a jumper of rg8, RS sells it.
    It won't fix the noise problem, but it helped some. You will add
    some DB loss during xmits, but you'll never see it.
    If you want to try a DC supply fix, then use a different battery
    and run only the radio off of it. This test will tell you if a filter
    will cure the problem. 
                                                      
    good luck
    Steve

    I don't necessarily expect to be told a magic solution, but it would be
    helpful in troubleshooting to know if users of 25 W VHF radios with an
    LCD depthfinder mounted in the same general area (2' apart) experience
    
    1) Some noise from the depthfinder, but radio still usable.
    2) No problem whatsoever.
    3) Enough noise to make the radio useless (if I have to put the squelch
       in position 9 (out of 10) I'm not gonna hear real traffic unless
       it's *extremely* strong.
    
    If I could get a few replies in I could figure out whether I'm after a
    bug or a fact-of-life.

    re-1: Funny, I'd forgotten all about this but I have a similar problem 
    - but with a handheld.   I've located my handheld vhf (SMP..?) on one side 
    of my console while the lcd fishfinder (Hummingbird) sits atop.   
    
    Now that I think of it, I dont really like either unit.  
    
    But in any event, when I'm running the fish/depthfinder - which is pretty 
    much all the time on the cape- the radio is usless.  I get a loud 
    hiss/whine that seems to vary with the scan of the transducer.   
    Turn the fishfinder off and the radio works fine.   
    
    My boat is fairly small, and the radio is strictly for emergencies, so 
    the issue "multivendor compatablility" isnt a big problem for me.  
    I suspect if I took the radio up front the noise mignt diminish.  I also 
    suspect shielding the depthfinder and/or its' cables would reduce the 
    noise as well.  
    
    But I also suspect I'm not likely to do much about the problem as well.

    
    
      The noise may be radiating from the Depthfinder box itself.  
    
      Why not try placing a grounded steel box (like a toolbox) over
    the depthfinder, and see if the noise diminishes?  If so, then
    you need to look at improving the shielding on the depthfinder 
    itself, rather than some problem with the radio installation.
    
    
    							-al
     

I have a cheap Humminbird LCD fishfinder (the LCR 400) mounted on the right side
of the helm. I have a Standard Horizon Galaxy that is mounted on the left side 
of the helm. I haven't measured the distance, and maybe it is just fair enough,
but I haven't experienced the problems reported here. I'd guess that they are
about 24" apart. both are simply connected to +12V with no filters.

john

     I have an Eagle Ultra Plus LCD depthfinder mounted on the right
    side of my helm. I keep a handheld in one of those handheld pockets
    only about 8" from the depthfinder and I have never had ANY
    interference between the two.
    
      My father has a *video* depthfinder mounted about 1' away from
    his VHF and he does not have any problems even though they share
    the same power source and there is no special wiring or filter 
    installed.
    
      My father's old boat has a Hummingbird LCD depthfinder mounted
    about a foot away from the VHF and there was no interference there
    either. Again with no special wiring or other precautions. 

     I had not answered before because, while I can imagine a problem
    like this, I had never seen it. I would *guess* that your depthfinder
    is causing the problem, but I wouldn't know if your depthfinder
    is broken, or if it's normal for the type you have. (poor shielding)
    
					Kenny

    I got a suggestion that the radio should be grounded - that DC- is not
    internally connected to chassis since the boat may have a separate
    ground circuit.    That would explain why the antenna coax outer
    conductor appears to be doing nothing (it connects to chassis, not
    DC-).    Seems logical.   Will try it next week.
    
    Thanks for the help so far.   I'm getting the impression that the
    situation is *not* normal.

    re: .63
    
    I think you have a ground problem with you're radio.  I don't think it
    has anything to do with your Depth Finder.
    
    I have a Humminbird LCD depthsounder mounted on my console.  My cheap
    Ray Jeff VHF is mounted inches away.  I keep the squelch on about 2.5
    or 3.  I get no interference, whatsoever, when the Humminbird is on.
    
    /brett
    

    FWIW, I have similar problem with my Apelco (the compact model) Radio.
    Sometimes it just shuts itself off for no apparent reason.  Very
    random and very intermittent.  It hasnt been anything more than a
    minor nuisance and I'll check out the wiring etc after the boat
    comes out this fall.
    
    It's also mounted inches away from a Humminbird 60 flasher type depth
    sounder.  There is no effect on the radio from the flasher
    
                                                        Tom

    Well this is getting frustrating...
    
    Spent 4 hours working on the problem.
    
    1)  First checked out all grounding and ran separate heavy wire from
    battery to VHF, as recommended.  Checked out everything with an
    ohmmeter.  No improvement.
    
    2) Called the Apelco customer service number.  He thought problem
    was that DC for radio and depthsounder transducer cable were too close 
    together. Indeed they were bundled together for over 6'.  Moved the
    DC lines to the bottom of the gunwale thus keeping 1' separation at all
    times - no help.
    
    3) Powered VHF from independent battery.  No help.
    
    4) Powered Depthsounder from independent battery.  No help.
    
    I'm left with the conclusion that the antenna is picking up the
    interference because (a) it goes away when I disconnect the antenna,
    (b) the transducer cable and the antenna cable do run together for a
    couple of feet.  
    
    I'm also suspicious that I have this low-profile Shakespeare 36"
    antenna with this loading coil at the base.  Everyone else I've checked
    out has an 8' antenna.  So much for all the careful antenna location
    planning and all the drilled holes etc.
    
    Next time I get up there I'm going to hook up a temp longwire antenna
    nowhere near the depthfinder cable and see what happens.
    
    Oh yeah, as part of this waste-of-time on the boat, I decided to
    replace my slightly nicked prop with a new one and make the old one the
    spare.   Always thought I should carry a spare.   After getting tired
    of the above electronics fiasco, thought I nice boat ride would
    compensate.    45 minutes later I totaled the new prop on a lobster
    trap.  $105 down the toilet in record time.  

I am sure you have everyone's sympathies on the new prop, and I am sure that I
am not the only one who's first reaction was "I am glad that I am not the only
one that this happens to."

I hate to say it, but it sounds like you've maybe isolated the problem with the
tranducer and antenna cable running beside each other. Seems like a logical
place to look to me. I know that they operate at different frequencies, but you
have one system's transmitting cable located next to other system's receive and
transmit cable and it seems possible that the VHF is picking up/being interfered
with, by the depth sounding signal. Is this the first time you've mentioned that
these cables were located closely in parrallel or did I miss it? Seems like we
have concentrated on power and grounding connections.

john

Do "local" Coast Guard stations act as repeating transmitters on occasion? 

Yesterday while out on my boat in Pleasant Bay in Chatham (on the eastern end of
Cape Cod) I clearly heard the Coast Guard trying to reach vessels that had 
called with emergency situtations - there were several. While this is normal of
course, what caught my attention was the locations given by the Coast Guard
stations. Castle Hill and New London, locations far from me. There was another 
strange one, but I did not catch it. I am certain that under normal circum-
stances I can't hear these stations broadcasting - the radio would never be 
silent if you could hear all stations within 100 miles. How was it that I heard
these signals?

john

    I don't believe that you were hearing a 'repeater'. I believe that you
    were hearing the broadcasting station(s). The shore based VHF of the
    Coast Guard are usually on very high antenna towers and they may use
    more than 25 watts of power (somehow 30 watts sticks in my mind). This
    combined with fewer boaters (and noise on ch.16) could result in your
    hearing them. I keep my boat in Hingham, Mass. and frequesnt Boston
    Harbor and Massachusetts Bay and I have heard similar transmissions
    from Castle Hill, New London, Portland Maine, etc.
    

    The air must have clear yesterday...I was on stellwagon and heard
    Castle Hill and Long Island Sound coast gaurd stations.
    
    Bruce

VHF is usually line-of-sight. Not too infrequently, you do hear stations 
well beyond this. I think that the signals are bouncing off the upper 
layers of the atmosphere. These signals are usually rather weak and are 
normally clobbered by stronger, nearby transmissions. And, of course, 
the Coast Guard antennas are much higher than most. We once talked to 
the Yarmouth, NS, Coast Guard at a range of fifty miles. Having our 
antenna 45' above the water helped.

    One of the guys in this plant was in the Coast Guard (lifer)
    and was stationed at a few of the Coast Guard stations here
    and there.
    
    He says:
    
    1. in most cases the antennas are mounted on extremely high objects.
    
    2. the transmiting watts, is "what they want it to be"
    
    
    you heard them, no reflection.
    
    JIm.
    
    
    

Thanks, I didn't get into the details of my location. I wouldn't have been as
surprised if I was out on Nantucket Sound, but I was behind the landmass of 
Chatham and in the immediate shadow of an island (a fairly tall and big one)
at one time and a hillside in a cove at another time. My antenna is not mounted
high either as I have only a simple, small boat. So I didn't think that I was in
any line-of-sight with those distant CG stations. And they weren't so far away
that I'd guess at atmospheric skip either. Good information!

john

    
      At VHF frequencies, Tropospheric Ducting would be  far more
    likely than Ionespheric skip, so you might very well have 
    seen better than usual propagation from the stations you
    heard...
    
    
    						-al
    

Re .73 and others

High sites are the key to achieving long distance comms. The Coast Guard here in
New England (First Coast Guard District) has several "high sites" which are also
operated at high power. As was pointed out, the power can be what ever they want
it to be....they are a goverment station.

One feature which can appear funny to the listener is that most high sites are
associated with several CG stations....each can gain access to it by dedicated
land lines. In Narragansett Bay for example the high site is located on top of
the Newport bridge tower, well over 200 (?) feet in the air. 

If CG Station Castle Hill needs to "reach out and touch someone", they use
a selecter circuit at the station to command the high site to switch to
the required freqency and a leased audio line completes the link.

CG Station Castle Hill is part of CG Group Woods Hole and the group (over on
the Cape) has equal access to the Newport Bridge high site.

Although you're not likely to ever hear it, it is possible for CG Group Boston,
especially the RCC (Rescue Coorodination Center) to use Newport as well.

This tieing together of VHF sites is very important for Search and Rescue i.e.
monitoring VHF chan 16. Most often "listening range" is greater then the
range for two way communications and listening from a high site is impressive!

One final item is that when operating in routine mode, all CG stations have
local equipment which should give coverage of their own area, but prevent
interference with adjoining areas. 

I've seen notices that beginning in 1991 we'll have to have the VHF radio
license on board the boat, and that CG boardings will include an
inspection for a current license. 

Here comes a new industry market -- plastic holders for radio licenses,
and plastic stick-on plackards that say "Don't dispose of trash
overboard. Take it ashore with you."

Maybe I should just make up a notice in PostScript and post it here.
Guess I will.

Art

    
    Art,
    
    BOAT/US already has the trash warning sticker for about a buck
    or two.
    
    And last year I picked up a nice zip-lock clear plastic pouch 
    for my boat registration at L.L. Bean for about 4 or 5 bucks.  
    It would also work great for carrying the FCC license.
    
    Speaking of which, I guess I'd better get around to finally 
    registering my handheld.  35 bucks for the FCC license, another 
    $25 federal "user fee" for being a fat cat boat owner, I'd 
    better start saving up for it now!  Does anyone know, is that
    FCC fee for one year or what?  If it's yearly, there's an extra
    60 bucks a year to the feds for using my boat and radio, where
    before there was no (direct) charge at all.  What a deal...
    
    Rick
    
    

re .82:

>>>    Speaking of which, I guess I'd better get around to finally 
>>>    registering my handheld.  

Scofflaw behavior such as this is precisely why the FCC and Coast Guard
are cracking down. Once again, the many suffer because of the sins of 
the few. As I recall, a license is valid for 5 years. 

    re .83, i think .82 was joking......
    
    JIm.

    
    
      Why do VHF boat licenses cost money?  Aircraft station licenses
    are free, and I think are printed on the same form as the marine
    ones!
    
    
    						-al
    

RE: Note 294.83
>> Scofflaw behavior such as this is precisely why the FCC and Coast Guard
>> are cracking down. Once again, the many suffer because of the sins of 
>> the few. As I recall, a license is valid for 5 years. 

Alan you are just so funny!  Now that I've stopped laughing, I have to ask
you, you don't really believe that do you?  They're charging $35 for one 
reason, for the the money!  If not, why do they charge a second $35 fee if 
you make a simple error on your application and have to resubmit it?


RE: Note 294.85  
>> Why do VHF boat licenses cost money?  Aircraft station licenses are free

See the previous discussions about "Fat Cats".

Still laughing,
Rick

re            <<< Note 294.86 by GOLF::WILSON "Closed for the season" >>>
>                          -< Please don't turn me in >-

>   See the previous discussions about "Fat Cats".

>  Still laughing,
>  Rick

	Gee Rick, did I hear you whisper  "sails tax" ?

	R

    The reason for the $35 is, of course, taxe$.  It hit$ harder for
    eclectic people with a herd of older boats...

    You have been a knowledgable participant in the notes file Rick, so I
    find it difficult to believe that what I hear is what you meant. It
    sounds like you are saying that the need for a VHF station license and
    the $35 fee are new requirements. While the $35 fee is indeed new the
    need for the license isn't. If people had properly licensed their
    stations previously the only people who would be complaining about the
    new fee are those due for renewal and those initiating a station on
    their boat.
    
    Yeah, I can be smug, cause I was one of the "lucky" ones who followed
    the rules and have a ($0) current license, so I won't see that fee for
    several more years. If others had done the same they'd be in the same
    boat.
    
    Now if you ask me if I think that it is a coincidence that the FCC and
    CG are "cracking down" on license-less VHF operators at the same time
    that a new fee is implemented, I'll tell you I may be naive, but not
    THAT naive.
    
    john

RE: Note 294.89

>>              -< Those without license only have selves to blame >-

>>  I find it difficult to believe that what I hear is what you meant. It
>>  sounds like you are saying that the need for a VHF station license and
>>  the $35 fee are new requirements. 

Hi John,
I re-read my previous reply, and I don't think I said that the license 
requirement is new.  Just the $35 fee and Coast Guard enforcement of it.
Sorry if that's how you interpreted it.  But I don't think it's fair to 
say that folks without licenses have only themselves to blame.  With a 
5 year expiration period, 20% of the licenses should be up for renewal 
every year, as well as any newcomers.  Are those people at fault?

I have no problem with the fact that my radio needs to be licensed, only 
the fact that every time we turn around there's another new "fee" or some
other form of "revenue enhancement".  But as George said, "no new TAXES",
only because they never call them that.  Seems to me if it walks like a
duck and talks like a duck....

Over and out,
Rick

    I did say that those with 5 year old licenses and new applicants should
    be the only ones complaining about the new fees now. These people
    aren't at fault and are right to curse their luck and government. I am
    in agreement that the fee is wrong. A cost of processing fee I could
    live with, IF it was applied to all types of licenses, and IF the fees
    were used to support radio communications, and IF there was some
    accounting of the monies that are now saved as a result of new fees.
    
    This isn't finger pointing, but the people who have had VHF radios and
    no license, and who now must get one or run the risk of fines, really
    can't complain in the same manner as those in the luckless group above,
    since if they had their license as requried, and most seem to know that
    it was required, they wouldn't be facing that $35 fee right now.
    
    One can complain about the fee, one could even work to reduce or
    eliminate it, but one can't complain that they have to pay it now when
    if they had gotten a license earlier (and they weren't up for renewal)
    they would be all set for a few more years.
    
    That's all I meant. I am just lucky this time. Next time I won't be I
    am sure.
    
    John

    When does the $35. licence fee go into effect?
    
    Can we sneek in for $0 if we file prior to Dec. 31st?  All increases
    have an effective date.
    
    /MArk

    
    
      Not to split hairs or anything, but I'm pretty sure that a license
    is only required to *OPERATE* the station.  Simply posessing radio
    equipment is not a crime.  Hence, (IMHO) unless the Coast Guard actually
    sees (or hears) you operating the station,  they really don't have
    any grounds to cite you for a violation...
    
    
    							-al
    

    
    Posession of a radio that is not installed is NOT illegal-but if the
    radio is installed ona recreational vessel or a commercial vessel, it
    must be liscenced. A radiotelephone operators liscence is NOT required
    for recreational vessels, but the person responsible for the station
    liscence assumes responsibility for anyone who uses the radio.
    
    ON commercial vessels a radio telephone operators liscence is required
    and a radio call log must be kept and be availble at any time for
    inspection. NO such log is required on a recreational or pleasure
    vessel. These requirements are not new, but they have become a lot
    clearere since the FCC  will now charge for liscences and the C.G will
    start to check liscences. 
    
     The abuses by uneducated, unliscenced operators are getting to be a
    real problem and the FCC is having to increase their monitoring and
    surveillance and enforcement. the are collected by the FCC- and as far
    as I am concerned, we users of the radio frequencies ,should be willing
    to pay for the ability to have the convenience and security of a
    reliable monitored system. We need to get discipline on the air-I have
    heard people try to break in on CVh 16 during a Mayday and get livid
    with the CG when they were told to get off the air. I have heard 
    ship to ship conversations on the CG working channels duyring bonafide
    emergencies.
    
    The cost of a liscence is less than two 6packs/yr-that is a samll cost
    for the safety and security of clear , monitored channels or use in
    emergencies. The problem has been so great with abuse and some
    unfortunate instances(like the three fisherman who drwned last year
    necause some clown mimiced a genuine MAYDAY and caused the CG t think
    it was a false alarm), that there is legislation on the table to
    require all radios to transmit on a side band a serial/registration #
    so that all calls can be traced and abusers be apprehended. Thsi will
    mean all new equipment and I suspect will result in Majior fines for
    non-liscencisng in the future.
    
    AS an added note- if you think our costs are high- go to the rest of
    the world- I lived in England where all radio RECievers and television
    receivers required an annual liscence- and it weren't cheap.
    
    Dick (holder of FCC commercial 1st & 2nd class kliscences and commercial
    R/T operator's liscence (and yeas, I will be happy to pay liscence fees
    to kepp the air waves clean)
    
     

re .94:

Three cheers for a voice of sanity and reason!

    
    
    			seconded.
    
    However it'll be a long time before dopes are gone.  
    

    
    	I'm gonna hate myself in the morning ... but
    
    	Didn't they state that all monies collected will go into the
    	General Fund and that no $ will reach the CG or FCC.  Same
    	goes for the CG user fee ?  
    
    	I have to admit the fee doesn't bother me as much
    	as the fact that we get nothing in return for it and neither 
    	does the FCC or CG.  
    
    	The FCC killed the fee schedule because the paperwork to track 
    	wasn't worth the effort so they simply handed out the license 
    	hoping a free license would make more people aware of the fact 
    	that these things aren't walkie talkies or party lines.
    
    	Check with your local CG and ask if they are getting any new
    	radio direction equipment from these monies to help them find 
    	radio jerks and/or assist in rescues.
    
    	I checked my licenses, they have a 92 and a 94 expiration.
    	Thankfully my radiotelephone permit is good for my lifetime.
    
    	Ed - who thinks paying for services is fine ... but tell me ...
    	what am I getting.
    
    
    	(oh - I can't find the article stating where the money goes - 
         but if I'm wrong I'll come back and delete thing note.  I hate
    	 having to wade through misinformation ... )

    Ed, your correct, the fees are going to the General Fund.
    
    The latest user fee as well. (Ref. the last publication by Boat
    U.S.
    
    On getting rid of the jerks. You are EXTREMELY NAIVE if you think
    that liscences will get rid of them. 
    
    I despise having to pay them a dime. We the "boaters" are getting
    RIPPED OFF, in the name of being a good citizen.
    There havn't been any improvements on the waterfront, law enforcement
    is at its lowest level. Go into New Bedford harbor, spend a couple
    of hours inside, you'll see what i mean.
    
    JIm.

Also since getting a license for a VHF radio station requires no radio specific
knowledge it will only be useful for identification purposes. Since no test or
training goes along with mis-use of the frequencies will likely continue. 
Especially after someone paid $35 to use them. "I paid money for this, I'll use
it however I want.!"

john

    Hi, I called the FCC recently to see how to get a license. They sent me
    a couple of forms which talked about the need to take a test. They also
    gave me the phone number for the America Radio Relay League in Conn. to
    see what the test schedule was. I called them and was told this has
    alway been a requirement ????????
    
    I just sent for forms 506 and 506A to see what I will get when they
    come in. I also asked the ARRL to send me an info packet on the test.
    
    It isn't bad enough that they will take our money but they sure make
    you work hard to do it !!
    
    Can anyone tell me what the UNbureaucratic process is ? are these the
    right forms I need, is taking a test (which includes knowing Morse
    Code) really a requirement.
    
    Thanks, Don

    Somebody got you mixed up with the requirements for a HAM radio
    license.
    It requires morse code, etc.
    

    reply to .100
    
    Call the FCC- tell them you want an application for a STATION liscence
    for a recreational MARINE VHF radio (I forgot the form #)
    
    You must be a US citizen to get the liscence
    
    
    

    Hi, you could have hit onto something for me. I wonder if the FCC has
    been assuming that I want an operators license vs a station license. I
    will give your suggestion a try.,
    
    
    Thanks, Don

    re: .103
    
    Don: Even a radioteleophone operator's liscence doesn't require all the 
    stuff you seem to have- I suspect they sent you an application for an
    amateur's liscence (HAM Liscence) for that you need to take an exam and 
    have to passa code test. Even a commercial marine radiotelephone
    liscence doesn't require all that stuff.
    
     "your tax dollars at work"
    
    
    Dick
    

    Well, I finally got things straight !  I called my local FCC office
    (617) 770-3922 and asked for forms 506 and 506A. THey were what I
    needed 506A you keep, its a tempory permit and 506 you send to the FCC
    with $35. ( no money - no process). There is no test and the license
    does last for 5 years. You were right its a station license and I was
    asking for a ham radio license by using my previous FCC jargon. THANKS
    
    Don

    Well, I'm impressed it only took the FCC a couple of weeks to process
    my license. I'd guess it would take longer in the "heat of the season"
    but the previously mentioned forms were the correct ones.

    The latest issue of BOAT/US Reports says that the FCC has
    dropped the requirement of a second $35 fee if you make a 
    mistake and need to rsubmit your application.
    
    Apparently they took some serious grief about this...
    
    Rick

    I just noticed that my station license says it goes with the boat and
    has to be returned if the boat is transferred  (the bow numbers are on
    it).  I've been using it with a different boat for some time now).
    
    Does anyone care (i.e., the coast guard)?  The new owner got his
    own station license - it's not like the call letters moved...
    
    If so, anyone know specifically what I need to do?

    Jim,
    	You do have to return the old license or at least apply for a 
    new one in order to meet the letter of the law. Most likely no one will
    ever know if you don't but a spot check by the CG could uncover it if
    you're the unlucky type. 
    
    Paul

I think that it is a long shot, and a scenario not likely played out, but the
information on the license could be used in a search and rescue mission (if your
call sign was the only way to identify you), and if they don't match they might
not know you are you.

john

    
    What about my handheld VHF?  Am I limited to using it on my own 
    boat or can I *legally* take it with me on someone else's boat?
    
    Rick
    
    P.S. Not that it matters - being the FCC lawbreaker that I already
         am...  8*)

    The letter of the law on handhelds makes them less useful than might
    appear.   They need a station license which goes with the boat.  The
    only thing I know aboout that gives you some flexibility is that they
    are allowed to be used on tenders and dinghys but only when commuting
    to/from the licensed boat.   If used in this way you must stick
    "station 2, or, 3, or 4..." after the call sign to indicate they are in
    an auxilliary vessel.

    Back about 30 replies is a discussion I started last Summer about my
    VHF picking up tons of depthsounder noise.   Since its never too early
    to start Spring commissioning I fiddled with this problem a bit last
    weekend.   
    
    Where I left off was (1) the noise was not DC coupled as proven by
    various experiments with independent batteries, (2) the noise appeared
    to be coming in the antenna lead, (3) the depthsounder cable and the
    antenna cable are close together , (4) lenghtly experimentation
    with various grounding techniques made no difference, and (5) some
    other people have similar problems but there are also many who have no
    problems with the units/cables even closer together than mine.
     
    Latest experiments.
    
    (1) Separated depthsounder and antenna cables min 2 ft apart.  Slight
    (VERY slight) improvement.
    
    (2) To eliminate antenna itself as a problem, replaced antenna with a
    temp longwire antenna running toward the front of the boat completely
    away from the depthsounder and transducer cable.   No help.
    
    (3) Brought my (cheap Shipwright) VHF handheld onto the boat and tried
    it instead of my permanent VHF.   ZERO problem.  I can shove the
    handheld antenna into the transducer, rub it against the cable or the
    depthsounder itself and not one bit of interference....
    
    (4) No problem either with the Loran (whose operating frequency of
    100khz is a lot closer to the 256khz depthsounder frequency than the
    VHF is).
    
    
    Conclusions:
    
    1) The VHF is NFG.   Bad design or broken filter somewhere in the front
    end.
    2) I'm going to call Apelco and see what they have to say.
    
    Is it possible to buy external notch filters that I can stick on the
    VHF antenna lead?  Curious that none of the boat supply catalogs list
    such things (even more corroboration that I'm seeing a bug rather than
    a fact of life).

    re .111
    
    	A portable VHF can be registered as PORTABLE and as such
    	does not need a boat registration # and carries it's own 
    	call letters.  You just need a reason to request such
    	a rating (unassigned to a specific boat).  My real VHF
    	goes with the boat and my portable is "safety gear used on
    	several different vessels".  Still need to be on a boat
    	to xmit legally ...
    
    	and expect the CG to do radio license checks this year
    	along with their safety checks if they see a VHF on board.
    	
    
    						- Ed

    A second possibility is noise from the depthsounder is getting into the
    first IF in the radio.  The noise maybe from the micro processor xtal
    oscillator.  Something between 5 and 20 mhz.  The usual first IF
    frequency of a low cost VHF is 10.7 Mhz.  The noise maybe phy xmitted
    by the ant lead into the set's IF.  A simple check would be to check
    the squelch setting on each channel.  If it the same then ther is high
    probelity of IF interferance.  If you do have problems with the
    Intermeadiate Frequency pickup then the only real solution is a new
    radio.  
    
    Also the second IF frequency is usually 455 Khz.  This is very close
    to the second harmonic of the sounder frequency.  
    
    Another check would be to borrow a portable SW radio and check the
    radiated frequencies from the fishfinder.
    
    Good luck.
    
    Ken C
    

    The CG is also reporting lack of a valid VHF station license to FCC
    this year, I seem to remember that the resulting fine is on the order
    of $1K.
    
    Don't screw around, get the proper license.
    
    J

================================================================================
Note 801.0                   VHF License Requirement                  No replies
USRCV1::FRASCH                                        9 lines  28-FEB-1991 12:05
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I've been told the C.G. will be looking for VHF radio station licenses
    being POSTED this year. I'ts always been a requirement to post the
    license, but untill now, no one has really checked it.
    
    So -------- beware, and be sure your station license is both up to date
    AND posted on your boat. Otherwise, "you gonne PAY"! (if you get
    boarded)
    
    Don

MOVED BY MODERATOR...

================================================================================
Note 801.0                      Post Your License                     No replies
RCODLF::FRASCH                                       15 lines   1-MAR-1991 09:50
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Rumor" has it (from a good source) that the C.G. will be checking this year to
see if boats equiped with a VHF radio have their Station License posted.

What that means is you are required to have the license stuck on a bulkhead or
some other spot where it is visible to anyone comming on board. What I do is put
it in a zip-lock bag and tape the bag to a cowling right next to the radio.

I also understand there is a fine involved (don't know how much) if you don't 
have it posted!

Soooooooooo --- Be sure you have a valid license and keep it posted!!!

Think Spring!

Don

	The posting requirement is new to me. Does anyone have the wording
of the requirement? I keep a lot of my documentation stuff in the cuddy out 
of the weather...commercial fishing license, tuna permit, boat registration 
etc. My radio license is in a clear plastic pouch with the other stuff. The
pouch is stuck to a bulkhead and, as luck would have it, the license is on 
top and is visible. Would this meet the posting requirements?

    i don't think this is new... its been around for awhile.
    
    but i'd bet very few post it.
    
    JIm.

    Since the coast guard will actually begin checking for the station license 
    this coming season during routine saftey inspections aboard recreational 
    vessels,  I doubt that they will be sticklers on it being posted as long 
    as you have it.
    
    If you carry passengers for hire aboard your vessel make sure it's
    posted.
    
    /MArk

    I have mine posted in a plastic picture frame on the cabin door.

    
    
    the write up on the laws I saw, was it HAS to be posted on board the 
    vessel, I think thats bogus I mean where am I going to put mine on a
    15 ft closed bow boat?
    
       The penalties are $1,000.00 fine, Possible imprisonment, and 
    confiscation of the radio till you pay the fine, and get the license.
    
      All you do is call the FCC in Boston Mass. and tell them you want
    form 506 for an FCC vessel license and they will send out the packet
    and its pretty self explanetory. and then you can send them the 35.00
    fee for a 5 year license.
    
       I was asked a question about this in the fishing file, YES you DO 
    have to license portable VHF radio's. in the application there are
    several different class's of license's available you have to choose the
    one that best fits your needs.
    
                                             Good luck,
            may everyone have a safe and enjoyable boating season.
    
                                                     Lee
    
         My boat will roll off the trailer 6am 3-29-91 on lake ontartio.
    
    

    well Just got off the phone with the us coast guard station in oswego,
      I was told that all previous note (123) info is correct, also to not
    have the license on the boat is a 600.00 fine! I asked about the
    posting and was told that as long as its on the boat it shouldnt be
    a problem. but if the fine is 600.  I will make sure its in view.
    
           hope this helps.
    
                                 Lee
    
    

Apelco (A Raytheon Company) have a few radios under $200 packed with features
and they work well.  They can be bought anywhere (mail-order is the cheapest)

Does anyone know if I can change one of the channels on 5 channel VHF marine
portable radio to a non marine channel (freq).  I would like to use the radio
for other leisure activities as a cheap 2-way.

    Moved by moderator...
    
================================================================================
Note 825.0                        Radio License                       No replies
ICS::FERNANDES                                        9 lines  18-APR-1991 09:40
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I recently received the Spring issue of the E&B Marine Supply cat.
    and on the inside front cover was a message stating that effective this
    year all boats with a VHF radio must have a FCC license. If the Coast
    Guard should board your boat and you do not have one you are subject
    to a $1,000 fine. The cost is $35 for 5 years.
    It did not mention where to purchase this license, can anyone help
    me on this?
    
    Thank You

    After reading through some of these notes I called the FCC in Quincy
    tel number 617-770-4023.
    They will send you form 506. It contains a temporary license (90 days)
    you have to send $35 to a place in Pittsburg(address appears on form)
    and they will send you permenant license.
    
    Thanks for the help

    Anyone know of a repair placer that fixes VHF radios preferably
    in central mass or southern N.H.

    Try Sawyer's Cellar in Berlin, Mass. It is just off Route 62, about 3-4
    miles west of I-495. Dick Sawyer is the owner and he repairs most of
    the Fire and Police comm. gear in the local area. I don't have his card
    handy, however the number should be available from information.
    

    	A proposed FEE for holders of FCC licenses.  If they end up using
    the money to do what they say I would not mind paying it.


    [From the September issue of Boat/U.S. Reports]

    "House Panel Slaps 'User Fee' on VHF Radios"

    In a setback for boaters who own VHF radios, the House
    Telecommunications Subcommittee approved the collection of $65 million
    in so-called "user fees" for holders of Federal Communications
    Commission licenses - in addition to the $35 licensing fee that went
    into effect last year.  The bill, H.R. 1674, will be taken up by the
    full House of Representatives when Congress returns in mid-September. 
    If this bill becomes law, owners of VHF marine radios would pay $50 in
    "user fees" over five years to pay for traditional FCC functions such
    as enforcement and rulemaking.  To oppose this plan, boaters should
    write or call their congressman and senators, as well as the House
    Telecommunications Subcommittee at 202-226-2424, Chairman Edward Markey
    at 202-225-2836, and the Senate Communications Subcommittee at
    202-224-9340.

    	Just what we need...another user fee. Boating is becoming a rich
    man's game even for small boats. My 22 footer which I use a half dozen
    times a year must cost over $1,000 in fees, taxes and insurance. I
    don't remember the details but when you think of the fees its
    rediculous; such as
    
    		Excise tax
    		Registration (boat)
    		Registration (trailer)
    		User fee
    		FCC License
    		FCC user fee 
                Commercial Fishing license (If you want to dream about Tuna)
                Insurance
    
    Did I miss any?  I think I'll start chartering someone elses boat.
    It'll be cheaper.

    
    Yes, I'm sure you did, but it would apply to those who keep
    them at slips, and cannot take them home.
    
    Slip fees
    winter storage fee
    launch & haul
    maintenance expense
    transient slip expense  (optional)
    fuel (rip off)
    Water use fee
    FCC fee(s)
    
    Its pure BS. You might be better off chartering..
    
    JIm.
    
    

    Don't say your going to charter because then they will come up with 
    a charter fee and a charter users fee and anything else they can 
    dream of.Seems to me when the colonials got taxed like this they 
    had a big tea party in Boston Harbor.And they thing Russians have
    problems.

    
    Don't forget the monthly payments, and the sales tax you paid when
    you bought it.
    
    Even though out of pocket expense for a day on the water may be 
    only ~$40 for fuel, lunch, etc, I figure each day on the water
    costs me about $200 when all expenses are figured in.
    
    Rick

    The only way to beat this is to use the boat more often.  The more you
    use it the less it costs per trip.
    
    $35/35 trips = $1 per trip
    
    This is the logic my wife uses when buying a new dress, shoes, etc.
    
    We boaters can also rationalize anything!
    
    Gordon

Do we need to pay the fees and licenses if we just have it installed and 
only use it to listen?  How about if I take my mike off?

     If you have a VHF radio on board your boat that is capable of transmitting
and receiving, removing the microphone, will not get you off the hook.

 Jim Duffy
 USCG AUX

    Mr. Duffy,
    
    I'm not to sure of that, it would then become a scanner, which
    requires no license.
    
    "capable" is not part of the equation..
    
    JIm.

The mike is just an input signal source.  The actual transmitter is
inside the radio box.  You would have to remove the transmitting
circuitry from the radio box and be able to demonstrate to the CG's
satisfaction that it was removed.  You might even get to "Tell it (show
it) to the judge".

Now for the gotcha: you need a license to work on a transmitter.

    You got some documentation that supports this statement.
    
    JIm.

re last several:

Gee folks, let's not get carried away here. Having a VHF radio (receiver
and transmitter) aboard is both prudent and wise, and I for one wouldn't
risk my life by not having a VHF just to save a paltry $35 or whatever.
I don't like the fee either, but I like having a (legal) VHF a whole lot
more. It's a big ocean out there. 

Alan 

    re: .141
      Talk to the FCC. Disconnecting the microphone on a transcevier
    doesn't stop it from being a trancsciever. Marine radios transmit
    on a bandwidth controlled by the FCC, and the FCC is not a body
    to muck with.
    
     - John
    

    Moved by moderator.  For additional info, see notes 301, 313, and 599.
    
================================================================================
Note 958.0                        Marine Radio's                      No replies
JUPITR::JJOHNSON                                     22 lines  19-MAR-1992 07:08
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    				Radio's 
    
    	I'm in the process of buying a VHF Marine band Radio
    	for my Boat wich is used in Fresh and Salt water. 
    
    	I would like to know if there is anyone out there who can
    	tell me what features they like the most. For ex. all 
    	scan channel capability through all Domestic and International
    	channels. 
    
    	What antenas are prefered ?  Is going with a top of the line 
    	Shakespere worth it ?
    
    	Also on the base on the antena  stainless steel ? Nylon ? 
    	or chrome over brass ???
    	
    	I want to stay around the $300.00 range.
     
    
    
    
    

Re -1>
    	When I bought my VHF I got everything but a built in hailer. Its
a Raytheon (RAY 77?) and it has select scan, all scan, 1w/25w, weather etc.
I do like the ability to monitor at least one channel and 16 (dual scan) but
beyond that I don't find the scan mode worth the bucks.
	Having the speaker facing you is another thing I looked for but
I think they all face that way now. I also considered waterproofness. That
may be an issue depending on your boat configuration. I went for the sealed
keypad vs knobs etc. 
	The antenna is at least as important as the radio itself...don't 
skimp there.
	They don't make my model anymore so any comments about it would 
be moot, although I will say that its the only piece of electronics 
that I have that failed to meet my expectations.

Paul	

    Get the more expensive Shakespeare antennae, you won't be disappointed.
    
    I replaced my antennae this past season with the expensive Shakespeare
    (about $90.) and am very pleased with the results. Range seems to have
    increased tremendously. My old one was very long and worked well but
    even though this one is shorter, it works much better.

    If you fish at all, you might want it to scan. BUT be sure it can 
    'lock' out channels that are busy. 
    Its sort of been said here already, but the antenna is the only
    variable to most of these. (Generaly) Be sure to put the $$ into 
    a good antenna. Do a good job of connecting the coax from the antenna
    to the radio. Make friends with a ham who knows how, etc.  Cut off
    the excess coax too.

	The following article came from April '92 Offshore (page 99)and is
reprinted without permission.  I question if this is a news article or a
joke because of spelling errors.  For what its worth here it is.

		Channel 9, VHF
		maien redesignated
		as secondary calling
		channel for
		First Coast Guard
		District waters

	To reduce congestion on channel 16, channel 9 will replace channel
16 as a general purpose calling channel in the area primarily served by Offshore
(Tom's River, NJ to Eastport, ME, including Lake Shamplain) as of April 1, 1992.
	Based upon the success experienced in Boston Harbor last summer, the
FCC has granted a timporary waver of the Maritime Services Rules to permit the
use of VHF channel 9 in the area.
	The waver states "...marine VHF channel 9 (156.450 MHz) may be used
as anon-distress calling channel in the 1st CG District...by non-commercial
users in lieu of marine VHF channel 16 (156.800 MHz)" and "...vessels using
marine VHF channel 9 for routine calling in the 1st CG District may 
alternatively monitor channel 9 in lieu of channel 16"
	Although the Coast Guard will not monitor channel 9, it will make
emergency marine distress broadcasts and announce marine information broadcasts
on both 9 and 16 in the District.  Channel 16 will be reserved for distress
and safety communicatiins only and will be monitored by the Coast Guard.

    
    Antennas,
    
    Do not waste your money.  I was always under the impression
    that the more $$$ you spend the better the antenna.
    
    EX. the more expensive ones come with a brass ferrule,
    usually chromed. The less expensive a plastic ferrule.
    
    whoopy, but it has nothing to do with the antenna's ability
    to do its job.
    
    the other drawback, in my case was, my old antenna had the
    brass ferrule, and a metal mount, (Rick, the previous noter)
    and i had to destroy it to get it off.
    
    my new plastic ($29) antenna works just fine. Got some doubts,
    call boat u.s. they will tell the same thing.
    
    Oh, there is 1 major difference between the more expensive
    and less expensive....  MORE PROFIT..
    
    JIm...

    I'm somewhat in support of my old buddy Jim's suggestion
    on antenna cost. BUT-- I strongly recommend that you buy
    an antenna with high gain. For example, a 6db antenna will
    double the apparent gain found in a 3db antenna. That works
    both for receiving and transmitting.  
                                 
    I have a sail boat and I changed my mast mounted antenna to 6db
    2 years ago. The difference in performance is noticeable. If I could
    have fit a 9db to the mast, I would have. There are those who will
    say sail boats (or for that matter, power boats) should use
    3db antennas because the boat doesn't remain flat in the
    water. I find that to be nonsense.
    
    Joe
    

    
    	I want to thank all you guys for the info....
    	2 things left get a good price and,...should let the 
    	wife know..
    

    Antenna - best and $$ usually equal higher gain. Go with plastic
    and cheap if thats your choice, but consider whats its worth WHEN you
    really need it..

    
    	As far as the gain goes I thought a 6db was pretty good. I looed at 
    	a Shakespeer 6 db 8' antenna for $29.00. Now in your opinion a 6db 
        8' $90.00 antenna would make a big differenc ?
    
    Like you said. When ya need the Coast Gaurd ya need them !   
    
    I have to agree with the individual that wrote the note about the
    scanning feture on the Radio, It could be a pain if you did not have a 
    lock out channel feature.  I'm looking at mre tonight.
    
    
    			John
    

    I have found that the lower cost antennas will only hold up for
    a year under normal use. You have to consider where the boat is 
    being used. If you tend to fish 20-40 miles offshore and have 
    to beat through a 3 foot chop to get in, the low cost antenna
    just won't hold up. Some fail at the plastic ferrule from wave 
    action or because someone grabbed it. Others fail by having the 
    coax support inside the antenna break. 
    I have a Celwave and the better Shakespeer on my boat now. Both
    will be going on their forth season.
    
    Steve
    

    
    RE: .147,
    
    "cut off the excess coax too"
    
    Why do you recommend doing that...  and should you leave some
    slack.
    
    JIm.

    Coax loses some of the signal, both in transmitting and receiving.
    The kind of coax used on VHF Marine radios is not as good as it COULD
    be. The 1/4 inch coax supplied on all of them are not as good as
    the >1/2 inch. (RG58 vs RG213 say)
    Anything to get the signal TO (and from)the antenna and NOT lost in the 
    coax is better. (Basiclly, you dont want the 6db gain lost in the coax..)
    Shorter is better. Ya you bet - leave some slack, and DONT make sharp turns
    with it. You will deform the dielectric/center conductor. 
    You dont have to trim it down to the last inch, but if your going to 
    leave 12 feet coiled up under the dash because the antenna is 3 feet 
    away from the radio, cut if off before you solder on the connector.
    

    
    Hows this sound, if you need 3 ft. of coax, add say 10" as a service
    loop or say at some point you need to replace the connector.
    
    
    Cause i installed a new antenna last season, and left the balance
    of the cable coiled up.
    
    Guess i'll trim off some, and remake the end.
    
    thanks for the info..
    
    
    JIm.

    I believe that in the vhf band, with the better (RG8/U) coax,
    the loss is about 3 db per 100'. With the smaller RG8X it is
    5.something db per 100'. A foot or two you will never see. Tens 
    of feet coiled up will be noticeable.
    
    Bill

    Moved by moderator...
    
================================================================================
Note 977.0         Looking for depth finder and ship to shore         No replies
WMOIS::LEBLANC_DEN                                    3 lines   4-MAY-1992 15:53
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Looking to purchase a ship to shore (built in) and a depth finder for
    ocean use.  Any idea on used or good priced new??
    

    I heard somewhere that the experiment in Boston with using ch 9 instead
    of ch 16 as the "calling" channel was successful hence they are
    switching to this system in the entire NorthEast.
    
    1) Correct?   If so, what's the specific area?  Does it include the
    Maine Coast.
    
    2) So what channel do you keep your radio on?  If you pick 16, you'll
    miss someone calling you.  If you pick 9, you'll miss distress calls,
    pan-pan calls, securite calls and other useful USCG info?
    
    3) Which channel will ship-to-shore radio use for calling?
    
    4) Does ch 9 apply to everyone you call (except the CG, obviously)?   
    
      - Bridges?   
      - Marinas?
    

    re .74
    
    Coast Guard antennas can get extremely high.
    
    When I was in the Bahamas in April where we had chartered a Grand Banks
    42, a sail boat was outside the barrier islands in six to ten foot
    seas, without charts, had a GPS, and could not speak English.  The
    BASRA (Bahamas Air Sea Rescue Association) called the Coast Guard for
    help.  The CG came on the frequency speaking from 11,000 feet in a
    Falcom jet.

    
    	Lake Champlain (1st District) is affected by the Ch 9 use too
    
    	Sez the Coast Guard in the press releases I saw AND the
    	announcements they have over the VHF occasionally :
    
    	Ch 16 is to be used for distress / hailing CG etc
    
    	CG will NOT monitor Ch 9
    
    	environmental and security announcements will be made on
    	ch 9 AND 16  (not sure if it's simulcast) telling you like 
    	always to switch to 22A   
    
    	CH 16 is of course the channel we're still suppossed to monitor
    	while we're out there to aid our fellow boat tax payers 
    
    	Right now I see goodness in this, since I won't monitor ch9
    	when traffic gets to be like a sunny Sunday, yet I can still
    	stay on 16 like a good person.  
    
    	The local fisherpeople must be tight though ... ch9 was their
    	baby and now that have to share.
    
    	Listening to ch 16/21/22A here and for a few daze in Maine
    	I didn't hear anyone yelling at boaters for improper channel
    	use of 16 .. but it's early in the season, CG probably still
    	have a sense of humor
    			
    					fwiw here in Vt
    
    						- Ed

    Moved by moderator.
    
================================================================================
Note 1034.0                    RADIO NEEDS REPAIR                     No replies
HURON::ECK                                           10 lines   4-JAN-1993 12:48
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I HAVE A PULSAR MARINE RADIO THAT NEEDS SOME VERY MINOR REPAIRS TO IT.
    I PULLED OUT THE MIKE WIRES BY ACCIDENT AND THEY NEED TO BE SOLDERED
    BACK. I TRIED DOING THIS BUT DON'T HAVE THE WIRING DIAGRAMS AND PERHAPS
    HAVE MISSED WIRED. IN ANY EVENT I WAS LOOKING FOR A PLACE THAT WOULD
    NOT CHARGE ME MORE THAN 1/2 HR TO FIX THIS. I BELIEVE THE UNIT COST
    AROUND 150 A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO. IT WOULD BE A SHAME IF I HAVE TO
    REPLACE IT FOR SUCH A MINOR REPAIR. ANY HELP WOULD BE GREAT
    
    -TED-
    

    Does anyone know where I can pick up a VHF license application?  Does
    the FCC have an 800 #?  
    
    Jim

��    Does anyone know where I can pick up a VHF license application?  Does
��    the FCC have an 800 #?  

    (717) 337-1212  

    Last time I called, it was an automated phone-drone. 
    Eventually you can leave a recording of what you want.
    I did, and got an application in about a week.

                <<< CVG::WORK3:[NOTES$LIBRARY]HAMRADIO.NOTE;2 >>>
                               -< Amateur Radio >-
================================================================================
Note 5520.0                 Morse Code era nears end?                  3 replies
TOOK::MCCARTHY                                       14 lines   5-AUG-1993 17:39
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	SHOCK...HORROR...IS MORSE CODE DYING?

    An article on page 29 of the Boston Globe reports the end of the
    Coast Guard monitoring of the 500 kHz Morse Code distress frequency.
    The last message, sent at 0000z Sunday from the Coast Guard station in
    Marshfield read...

	"WE WISH THE MARITIME COMMUNITY FAIR WINDS AND FOLLOWING
	 SEAS.  NOW CLOSING DOWN CONTINUOUS WATCH."

    It was answered, IN MORSE, by hundreds of ships... 

    Sigh...
    --... ...--   -.. .   .-- .- .---- ..- .- .-.

<    It was answered, IN MORSE, by hundreds of ships... 
<
<    Sigh...
<    --... ...--   -.. .   .-- .- .---- ..- .- .-.

       7     3      D  E    W   A   1    U   A  R

  Okay I understand the 1st 2 characters (73), but what does the rest mean
(DEWA1UAR)

    re -.1
    
    73 - general HAM closing remark.  It may have a meaning, but it escapes
    me at the moment.  (HEY! I'm only a novice!)
    
    DE - from
    
    WA1UAR - Amateur radio callsign
    
    
    -Rick 
    KC6NWH

    73 means "Best Wishes" 
    There are a large number of common phrases that were given
    numbers so they could be sent in a standard message format
    quickly.
    Another one is 88, which means "Love and Kisses". It always
    cracks me up to hear truck drivers say "Threes and eights
    to ya'" on a CB set. I guess that's CB lingo for 73 and 88!
    
    Theo - NU5A

    Well, I finally heard the ultimate yesterday p.m. on Lake Winnipesaukee
    on VHF channel 16:
    
    	"Breaker one-nine, for a radio check"
    
    Bill
    

    As an timely followup to my last reply of hearing "Breaker 19" on VHF
    channel 16, a week ago, this Sunday's Concord Monitor had an article
    (page B3 I think) where the USCG Auxilliary has established a presence
    on Lake Winnipesaukee (with the N.H. Marine Patrol's blessing) and has
    begun a broadcase campaign to curb the channel 16 abuse.
    
    The article went on to say that the USCGAux is trying to get enough
    interest to start a USCGA Flotilla in the Lakes region and is looking
    for volunteers who are interested in participating. It does require
    a "year's worth of training" before one would be turned loose on
    the lake as an Auxillary member. 
    
    Their goal is also to "clean up" the other large lakes after they have
    made singificant progress with Winnipesaukee.
    
    The Auxilliary does not have any authority to arrest or give citations
    but acts only as an advisory / assistance organization.
    
    If anyone wants more info, send me mail and I'll see if we still
    have the Sunday paper at home.
    
    Bill
    

    
    Does anybody know why the renewal fee has jumped so high? They want
    115.00 American dollars to renew this license. It was either "free" or
    15.00 dollars when I got it 5 years ago?

>>>    Does anybody know why the renewal fee has jumped so high? 

Yes, this is called fee-for-service, or, we're not gonna raise taxes, 
but we're gonna raise fees instead. Same reason NOAA charts are now
$13.50 when they used to be $7.25 or so. Expect more of the same.

I'll refrain from any further political commentary.

    I think your right Alan...we got that absurd boat tax turned around
    and now well come in through the back door with an outrageous fee.
    The sad part about this is this kind of fee will stop a lot boaters
    who dont have a lot of money from renewing and maybe paying an
    outrageous fine to the FCC down the road....or worse yet people
    wont get into buying VHF radios, which is probably your biggest safety
    device next to your life jacket...
    
                             Bob

    The license is now good for 10 years ( cuts the cost a little). 
    Boat/US is trying to lobby to get the cost reduced because of the
    safety factor.
    
    Dennis

    I bought a radio last year and never used it, I like haveing
    on the boat for safety reasons, weather reports , and maybe
    talking to other fishing boats.... I planned on register it
    this year, You mean to tell me I have to pay $110 bucks to do it..
    
    thanks
    Mike

While the license is good for 10 years, it is tied to the boat (and
radio I believe).  So if you get a new boat (or radio) within 10
years, you're facing the full fee again.  Clearly a rip off.

But I thought this hadn't gone into affect?

License is for the boat, but not for any specific VHF radio(s). You can 
have as many VHFs as you want and replace them whenever you want without 
having to get another license. 

Note that ANY transmitter must be licensed. This includes SSB, radar,
and EPIRBs. 

And yes, the new higher fee is in effect and has been for several 
months.

I didn't realize radar's were licensed.  Do I use the same form as for
a VHF?

Paul

    re -.1
    
    Yep.  Same form for both EPIRBs, VHF, SSB, all frequencies of RADAR. 
    To change or add an endorsement costs the same as starting from
    scratch.  That's why some of us check everything when it is time to pay
    the fee.  You can get endorsements for equipment not yet installed.
    
    djc
    

One of the BOAT US publications a couple of months ago stated that the fee 
would be reduced to $75 ($30 license fee and $45 processing fee).

Has any one experienced the reduced fee or is eveyone waiting for them to 
reduce it further?

Fred whos-current-5-year-ships-license-has-expoired

    > One of the BOAT US publications a couple of months ago stated that
    > the fee would be reduced to $75 ($30 license fee and $45 processing fee).
    
    That's half of the story, Fred. That's what the FCC is proposing.
    At the same time, there are a couple of congressmen who have figured
    out that  radios are important safety  equipment for both boats and
    planes and are sponsoring a bill  to make the (non-commercial?) FCC
    licenses from each to be free.
    
    I believe that was in the latest Offshore magazine.
    
    Bill
    

    
    	Also according to the FCC in May the proposal to drop the rate has
    not gone through.  I just wimpered and wrote the check.  At $115  it is
    awful tempting to just say forget the license.
    
    
    forrest

    OK, someone started a rumour in the Fishing notes file that the FCC has
    finally waived the $75 fee for registering a VHF radio. Dad said
    never trust a rumour, no matter how good it sounded, so I called the
    FCC. Here's the scoop:
    
    In consideration of the Telecommunications Act of 1996, the FCC is
    examining whether to continue to require the registration of shipboard 
    radio systems on pleasure craft, and to collect the fees thereof.
    
    In the interim period prior to the final decision on this issue, the
    FCC is waiving the requirement to register shipboard radios on
    *pleasure* craft (ie: non-commercially operated vessels, non-tow
    vessels, vessels under 300 tons displacements, etc).
    
    The USCG will no longer have cause to determine the existence and/or
    validity of an FCC licence to operate a ship board radio on any
    pleasure craft operating *within US waters*, until such time that the 
    FCC makes a final determination (that resumes the registration 
    requirements, presumably).
    
    Note that this interim position includes VHF radios and EPIRBs as well.
    It does *not* include SSB radios, however (although it wasn't clear
    what an SSB operator has to do at this point. If you operate an SSB
    radio you should contact the FCC)...
    
    This is welcome news - I managed to scoot through the tail of last
    season with a temporary license in the boat (never sent the other half
    of it in - figured I'd wait until I got bagged ;^)
    
    Hopefully this will become permanent, or if not, the fee will be a lot
    more reasonable than the $75 they wanted to whack us for...
    
    Cheers!
    
    /dave

      
     DAVE,
    
    	While you were talking to the FCC did they mention what you are
    to use for a call # if you do not have to register your radio.  IT
    would figure that they would elimate it this year, now that my licence
    is good for ten years.
    
    	George (JOY III)
    

    George: 
    
    None of this is "permanent" yet. They could eventually decide to
    return to the prior "status quo" and charge us the same $75 (or more or
    less) for the 10 year station licence. Look on the up-side: if they 
    decide to go back to the $115, you're ahead of the rest of us ;^)
    
    Since making that phone call, I've received the latest Boat/US
    newsletter and it confirmed that the FCC isn't processing any station
    licence requests for pleasure craft/US-only waters. The article points
    out that this is indeed a temporary "cease fire" and the permanent 
    outcome could go either way.
    
    As for what to use for a station call-sign: I didn't think to ask,  but
    I'd say that you should stick to all the rules, regulations, and
    procedures that you'd have followed with the exception that (a) you
    don't send in the application/money, and (b) you aren't *required* to
    show a station licence to the USCG (for the time being, anyway). So,
    your station call-sign would be K, followed by your state registration,
    just as it would have been otherwise...
    
    Cheers!
    
    /dave