Conference thebay::joyoflex

	I believe there used to be only 10 months in the year so that Sept. 
through Dec. were indeed the 7th through 10th months. Then Julius and Augustus 
Ceaser had months named after them (July and August) which were inserted between
June and September throwing everything off. I hope someone else knows more as 
I'm curious myself as to the why's and wherefor's. I always thought there should
be 13 months of 28 days each. That only adds up to 364 days though. I guess we 
could have a special day, not a normal day of the week nor part of any month as 
a special 'leap day' every year. Every 4th year we could have a 'leap weekend'.
I propose the new month should be put between June and July and be called 
'Vacation'. :^)

Pete

    G'day,
    
    And there was the time when someone - I forget who - who rearranged
    the calendar and in effect 15 days of July went missing.. Hence
    the cry of "give us back our days"...
    
    Also Louis 14(?) of France had a calendar with months called
    Fructier,(the fruit month) Chaudier (?) the hot month and similar.
    
    derek
    ps
    Hope I did not disturb a mouthful of stew ore than thrice with my
    question :-)
    

    As for the numbering of months, April comes from "aprilis",
    which means "the second". "Februare" has to do with clean(s)ing,
    and January, March, May and June got their names from the gods
    and goddesses.
    
    The Julian calendar was introduced in 46 BC. Before that, 
    we had the good old days, when your birthday was every 10 months, 
    and the marketplace had banners announcing "Buy now! Only 46
    years to Christmas!"
    
    Henrik

    
    This must be the first example of decimalisation in reverse .
    
    John J

    
>    This must be the first example of decimalisation in reverse .

    Re .1 (Pete):
    
>I'm curious myself as to the why's and wherefor's. I always thought there should
>be 13 months of 28 days each. That only adds up to 364 days though. I guess we 
>could have a special day, not a normal day of the week nor part of any month as 
>a special 'leap day' every year.
 
    Actually, the most logical calendar ever devised was that used by
    the ancient Egyptians (also one of the most stable cultures).
    Basically, each week had ten days, each month had three weeks, and
    there were 12 months, adding up to 360 days.  The five (or six)
    remaining days were extra-month holidays.  The reason for a 28-day
    month comes from more primitive (than the Egyptian) cultures, where
    a month was indeed a "moonth"; that is, tied to the lunar cycle.
    Without getting into a religious discussion of the phenomenon, the
    sidereal lunar rotation is approximately 27 days; the synodic,
    approximately 29; thus, 28 days was a good compromise.  The four
    lunar phases (one every approximately 7 days) are distinctive enough
    to result in a 7-day week.
    
    Now back to lexing...
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.     

    The Roman calendar prior to the introduction of the Julian calendar
    did start in March, which correctly positioned September through
    December in numerical order.
    
    Julius Caesar decided that January would be the start, apparently
    because of the association with Janus, the two faced god who looked
    both forward and backward. 
    
    He appropriated the first non-deity month available, the fifth,
    and renamed it for himself. Augustus did the same thing when he
    took over, taking the sixth month. I don't know what the exact Latin
    names for the months were, probably Quintius and Sextus.
    
    Lucky for us following emperors did not follow suit. Could you imagine
    Neroinius, Caligularum.
    
    Roger

    The "losing" of 10 days occured during the changeover from the
    Julian to the Gregorian calendar.  In the U.S., er, in the
    Amican colonies, they were lost in the autumn, sometime after 1732.
    
    Sometimes, in financial bookkeeping, it is useful to have an
    extra month.  For M.C.F.I., that little month is centered around
    the Labor Day weekend.  We call it Claudius.
    
    							Ann B.

    Oh goody!  Calendars AND joy-of-lex!
    
    Actually if you've seen my ramblings on this topic in ASKENET or
    DECW$CALENDAR notefiles you can probably skip to the end where
    you get to find out just what an "ide" is.
    
    The story for why the modern months are off by two (December, literaly
    the tenth month, is the twelfth) comes from an act performed by
    Julius Caesar in 46BC, the "year of confusion".  The early Roman Republic
    calendar was very confusing!  It had ten months -- March through
    December -- of 29, 30 or 31 days.  The months of January and February
    were added about 700 BC at the end of the year and the months' length
    changed to 28 (Feb), 29, or 31.
    
    But the time of Julius Caesar, the control of the calendar was in
    the hands of the College of Pontiffs.  The head guy was called the
    Pontifex Maximus.  When Caesar became Pontifex Maximus, he decided
    to stop the endless fiddling with the calendar so he imposed the
    365 day year with a leap-day correction every 4 years.
    
    Unfortunately, the adoption of the new caused a bit of trouble
    because the old calendar was hopelessly screwed up.  Eighty-five days
    were added in 46 BC so that the calendar could be realigned with
    the traditional seasons.  The length of the months were changed
    to either 30 or 31 days (except for Feb).  These 2 changes were
    good.  The mistake was that the new calendar took effect on
    January 1st instead of the traditional new year's day of March 1st
    because of the Roman Consul had since 153 BC assumed office on Jan 1.
    
    
    The Roman calendar was numbered backwards.  An `ides' was the midway
    point through a month, the 13th or 15th day depending on the length
    of that month.  The `nones' were nine days before the ides.  And finally
    to confuse things even more, the first day of the month was called a
    `calend'.  So one would not count the days past a point as we do today,
    one would mark the current day as being some number of days before
    a calend, nones, or ides.  Today, Jan 5th, is the nones of January
    because it is 9 days before the ides of January, Jan 13th.
    
    Brutus threat to Caesar of "beware the Ides of March" is somewhat
    confusing because it might mean the actual day of ides or the day
    plus the days between the nones and ides.

    The origin of `July' and `August' are interesting too.
    
    July used to be called `quintilus', the fifth month.  August
    was `sextilus', the sixth month.
    
    They had that name, that is, until Julius Caesar and Augustus
    Caesar got their mits on the months.
    
    I've been working on the month of `Bob' without success ...

    For more on dates, time, and calendars, see TAMARA::WAR_STORY topic
    147.*.  Press KP7 or ENTER to add that conference to your notebook.

    I remember coming across a story a long time ago to the effect that
    the year once began in April, and when January was designated to
    start the new year, some people still insisted on celebrating on
    April 1st.  These were called April fools and the day became popularly
    known as April Fool's Day.  Supposedly, the change in question occurred
    in late medieval or early modern times, rather than in the Roman
    era.  Has anyone else heard of this?
    
    					Aaron

    re .9
     
>>    Brutus threat to Caesar of "beware the Ides of March" is somewhat
>>    confusing because it might mean the actual day of ides or the day
>>    plus the days between the nones and ides.
     
     I thought it was some random "soothsayer"'s warning, not a
     threat from Brutus.
     
     Dan

.13�< Note 606.13 by AITG::DERAMO "Daniel V. {AITG,ZFC}:: D'Eramo" >
.13�            -< In the Shakespearean, not the historical, version. >-
.13�
.13�     I thought it was some random "soothsayer"'s warning, not a

    How does one go about generating a truly random soothsayer?
    
    Ian.

RE -1
>                           -< Randome soothesayere >-

Ahe, Iane!
Soe thate ise the waye toe create olde englishe language! :-):-)
Arie (olde englishe fore "Ari")


(did I digress enough? :-))

    Whilst we're talking about Romans, calendars etc. a slight digression
    is the way they measured time.
    
    Apparently the daylight and nighttime were each divided into 12
    equal parts (hours).  So as the seasons progressed the duration
    of an hour changed too.
    
    Presumably the unions made sure that pay was related to some other
    measure than a rate per hour?
    
    Nick

    re .2
    
    You're referring to the "Calendrier r�publicain" which
    was created during the French R�volution. 
    By the way we are celebrating its bicentennary this year. If 
    you live in France, you'll hardly spend 1 day without hearing
    about the R�volution. It's also the centennary of the Effel Tower.
    
    1793 was declared "An 1" (year 1). There were 12 months
    of 30 days, + 5 days vacation for celebration of the R�publique.
    
    The year started on Sept 22nd (a solstice, I think).
    The month names were created by the poet Fabre d'Eglantine:
                                             
    	Vend�miaire (time for grape-picking)
    	Brumaire    (month of fog)
    	Frimaire    (month of cold)
    	
    	Pluvi�se (month of rain)
    	Vent�se	 ( of wind)   
    	Niv�se   ( of snow)
    
    	Germinal (germination)
    	Flor�al (flowers)
    	Prairial (prairie)
    	                      
    	Fructidor (fruits)
        Messidor (harvest)
    	Thermidor (heat)
    
    These are the correct names, I think, but perhaps not in the
    right order. Beautiful names, in my opinion.                               
    
    This calendar was used until 1806, when it was replaced by the
    gregorian calendar.
    French historians still use it when mentioning dates in
    that period, so you may hear about "9 Thermidor" (arrestation
    of Robespierre) or "Les soldats de l'An II" etc 
    
    roger
                                                    

    Re: .17
    
    Was the calendrier r�publicain intended just for France, or for all
    civilized countries?
    
Lew Lasher

    re .18
    Well, surely they didn't know a lot about agriculture in the
    southern hemisphere ...     
    
    Note that many of the ideas brought by the R�volution
    were intended to be "universal" (cf Declaration of Human Rights,
    abolition of slavery and privileges etc ...).
    
    In fact this idea of universality of the R�volution
    is still present to some extent. For example, I was told that the 
    heads of state of ALL countries in the world are invited to Paris 
    on 14th July, for a grandiose celebration.
    [I'm almost certain that HM Elizabeth won't have any time available, 
    due to accumulated work, previous committments etc ...]
    
    
        roger
                                                       

    Re .13 (Dan):
    
      >I thought it was some random "soothsayer"'s warning, not a
      >threat from Brutus.
       
    Actually, since Brutus was one of the plotters, it would have been
    foolish of him indeed to mention anything of the sort to Caesar.
    
    Probably, with as many people involved as were, there was some
    gossip around the Senate; a little careful observation and anyone
    could play the part of soothsayer.  If indeed what was supposed
    to have been said really was said, that's probably how it happened.
    
    re .14 (Ian):
    
    >How does one go about generating a truly random soothsayer?
    
    "Soothsayer" means "teller of truth," and is generally applied to
    prophecies.  I believe what Dan meant was "random-soothsayer," meaning
    a prophet who would utter truths at odd times about different subjects.
    Such a sayer would likely blurt out homilies at unexpected times,
    waking up in the middle of the night to say such things as "War
    is Hell" or "Never count your chickens before they're hatched."
    Random-soothsayers are  difficult people to try to hold conversations
    with, because in the midst of a discussion of the Ming Dynasty,
    they're likely to interrupt with a comment like, "Science is based
    on the faith that experiments are repeatable," or "A true philosopher
    would act as he does now even if there were no laws."  On the other
    hand, since sooth utterances are wholly random, there may be long
    stretches where such a person can utter socially acceptable "little
    white lies" just like the rest of us, as in, "You look simply stunning
    in that dress."
    
    Random-soothsayers are not generated; they are touched by Eris,
    muse of discord.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    I read "random soothsayer" in .13 to mean "a soothsayer chosen
    randomly", ie, by chance and with no care given to the nature or
    accuracy of his or her sooths. 

     Can't someone just type in a few lines of that particular
     scene?
     
     Dan

.22>     Can't someone just type in a few lines of that particular
.22>     scene?

that particular scene that particular scene that particular scene that
particular scene that particular scene that particular scene that particular
scene that particular scene that particular scene that particular scene that
particular scene that particular scene that particular scene that particular
scene that particular scene that particular scene that particular scene that
particular scene that particular scene that particular scene that particular
scene 

Is this enough? :-):-)
Arie

    .22 must be the Note Of The Year (so far).  Well done Arie.  It
    certainly left me in no doubt that I was reading Joy Of Lex.
    
    
    Ian. ;*}

    re .18;
    
    I didn't know that the French considered any other countries to
    be civilized :-)
    
    -dave

    Re ,19 (Dave):
    
    Do they today? :-D
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    Soothsayer: Caesar!
    Caesar:     Ha! Who calls?
    Casca:      Bid every noise be still. Peace yet again!
    Caesar:     Who is it in the press that calls on me?
                I hear a tongue shriller than all the music
                Cry 'Caesar!' Speak. Caesar is turned to hear.
    Soothsayer: Beware the Ides of March.
    Caesar:     What man is that?
    Brutus:     A soothsayer bids you beware the Ides of March.
    Caesar:     Set him before me; let me see his face.
    Cassius:    Fellow, come from the throng; look upon Caesar.
    Caesar:     What say'st thou to me now? Speak once again.
    Soothsayer: Beware the Ides of March.
    Caesar:     He is a dreamer. Let us leave him. Pass.
    

    
    I hadn't realised Caesar was so deaf !
    
    John J
    
    

    Not so deaf. When Caesar asked `Who is it in the press that calls
    on me' he was referring not to representatives of the news media
    (who, as we know, would have been respectfully silent) but to a
    noisy throng.  
    
    It isn't until the second `Beware the Ides of March' that Caesar is
    dealing with the sooth-sayer face-to-face; before that, there is one
    `Beware the Ides of March' from a distance and one rather guilty and
    non-commital repetition from a `friend' who hopes that Caesar won't pay
    attention.
    
    b 

    re .14
    
>    How does one go about generating a truly random soothsayer?
    
    Call $RANSOOTH
    
    d
    

    re. 30
    
    Ah! a new feature! tried it straight away.....
    
    Got elevator music (I guess it was supposed to be soothing).
    
    ..klaas..
    

    Re .31
    
    Klaas,
    
    it sounds like you may have forgotten to check the return
    status of $RANSOOTH.
    
    Ian.

    Speaking of month names, though not for some time, what is the
    etymology of the day Tuesday?  Is it to do with a deity or something
    called Teuh?  Who knows the secret of Tuesday?
    
    Ian.

    
    Ian, a *very* hazy memory connects Tuesday with a Norse goddess 
    named Tiew.  Can others elaborate?
					Dave

"Tuesday" is from a prehistoric Western/Northern Germanic compound 
represented in Old English as "Tiw daeg" (Tiw was a war god); in Rome
and Greece it was "Martis dies" (Mars) and "hemera Areios" (Aries).
(From _Webster's New Third International Unabridged_.)

We do like to cling to our old gods!

Perry

    That's interesting, and also explains why tuesday is 'mardi' in
    French.
    
    Does anyone know any more about this god Tiw?
    
    Ian.

    As I recall, in traditional Norse mythology, the name was Tyr (perhaps
    a more recognizable form).  Both Bulfinch and Hamilton have some
    stories about him.
    
    	- Win
    

    
    Tyr is correct scandinavian mythology. Tiw might be german variation.
    Note that Tyr is not the same as Tor (Thor). I haven't heard of any
    gods called Bulfinch and Hamilton; maybe they belong to the anglo-saxon
    mythology.
    
    �ke

    �	    Note that Tyr is not the same as Tor (Thor). 
    
    Of course. They're as different as Tuesday and Thursday.
    

.37�    a more recognizable form).  Both Bulfinch and Hamilton have some
    
    
    Win,
    	  What are/is Bullfinch and Hamilton?
    
    
    Ian.

    Edward? Bulfinch was the author of _Bulfinch's Mythology_, which
    is a romantic collection of myths, particularly from the Greeks.
    Edith Hamilton's _Mythology_ is the classic book on mythology that
    some people read in high school as an overview.
    
    Cat
    

    In Japanese, the names of the months are
    
      (ready for this?)
    
    1 moon, 2 moon, 3 moon, ..., 12 moon.
    In ancient times the months had real names, but I don't know them.
    
    The names of the days are more interesting.
    
    Sun sun (the same as in any language, eh?)
    Moon sun (again the same as in any language)
    Fire sun
    Water sun
    Wood sun
    Gold sun
    Ground sun (Earth sun, but only one of the meanings of Earth I think,
                unfortunately for all us punsters)

Re: < Note 606.42 by TKOV04::DIAMOND >
>    In Japanese, the names of the months are
>    1 moon, 2 moon, 3 moon, ..., 12 moon.

  It's simple and very convenient, isn't it?

>    The names of the days are more interesting.

  All the Japanese names of the days come from the name of stars.

     The Japanese names   The Japanese names                     In English
        of the days          of the stars         Its meaning

  Sun   Nichi-youbi(*1)       Taiyou, Hi                             Sun
  Mon   Getsu-youbi(*2)       Tsuki                                  Moon
  Tue   Ka-youbi              Ka-sei      The Star of Fire           Mars
  Wed   Sui-youbi             Sui-sei                 Water          Mercury
  Thu   Moku-youbi            Moku-sei                Wood           Jupiter
  Fri   Kin-youbi             Kin-sei                 Gold           Venus
  Sat   Do-youbi              Do-sei                  Earth (Soil)   Saturn

  *1) Nichi is another pronunciation for the Kanji "Hi."
  *2) Getsu is another pronunciation for the Kanji "Tsuki."

  I believe the origin is Chinese.

  Dolby SHIMONO
  Tokyo Deconstruction Kid

The Korean names are also based on the same Chinese characters.

		Korean Name	Meaning

Sunday		Il-yoh-il	Sun
Monday		Wul-yoh-il	Moon
Tuesday		Hwa-yoh-il	Fire
Wednesday	Soo-yoh-il	Water
Thursday	Mok-yoh-il	Wood (Tree)
Friday		Kum-yoh-il	Metal (Gold)
Saturday	Toh-yoh-il	Earth

It's interesting how the pronunciation of the same characters differs from one
language to the next.  It would be interesting to see what the Mandarin and
Cantonese pronunciations are.

Re: .43 - Star names

Do you mean planets?  Mars, Jupiter, et al. have been known to be planets for a 
while now though Venus and Mercury are often called morning or evening stars 
depending on when they are in the sky.

Wook