Conference noted::bicycle

    look and clipless pedals are discussed in notes 213, 437, 554, 628,
    796, 1052, 1154.4, and probably elsewhere

    Thanks for the info. Note 628 " Toe clip or not to toe clip " had some 
    good info. Let me rephrase my note : I am a novice biker ( commute
    18 miles a day 3-4 times a week ). I am looking for FUNDAMENTAL 
    information on the advantages of clipless pedals and what I should
    pay for the pedals/shoes. I'd rather get the input from veteran 
    bikers instead of trusting a sales rep who may sell me a more expensive
    pedal/shoe than I really need. - ml
    

    The basic advantage of clipless is that they are safer to ride with
    then the toe clips with cleats. This is because you can release you
    foot from the pedals a lot quicker and without bending down to loosen up
    your toe clip straps. Also, it is more comfortable to ride a clipless
    pedal because you don't have the toe clip straps wrapped around your
    foot. This usually causes pain near the pinky toe of your feet. 
    
    The only disadvantage you have with clipless is that you have to wear
    the shoes with the clipless cleat. So if you plan on taking a slow ride 
    with the friends. You will probably end up stopping a lot and
    you end up working around with the cleated shoes on. I usually bring a
    pair of flip flops or change my pedal back to toe clips (if it is a long
    ride) on these occasions. Changing the pedal only takes about 5 min.
    anyway.
    
    As for the type of clipless pedals, there are quite a few selection out
    there these day. If you have any type of knee problem. I would suggest
    you go with the Time system or the new Look Carbon Pro with the 2 
    different cleats. It is not worth save $100 - $150 when your knees
    could be screw up for life. 
    
    Otherwise, I would suggest the Look or Shimano type of system. these
    are the most common and you can almost buy any type of shoes that is
    pre-drilled for look style cleats. As for the cost, it's up to you.
    
    Shimano new 105 SC - under $100
    Shimano new 600 - about $120 
    Shimano new Dura Ace - about $130-150
    
    Look - $80
    Look Sport - $90
    Look Carbon - $140-150
    New Look Carbon $170-190
    
    In the shoes area, I would suggest you try on as many pair as possible
    until you find on that feels comfortable. Also try to fing a pair that
    will hold down the front of you foot with velcro. This will keep your
    foot on the bottom of the soles while you're pedaling.
    
    Anyway, I am beginning to sound look a salesman,
    
    good luck!
    
    Dave
    
    

    	For clip-ins, if you can dare to be different/non-stylish, I'd
    recommend the cheapest of the Looks, the ones that aren't even listed
    in most catalogs. At one time they called them Look ATB pedals: they
    are plastic and can be pedaled on either side - clip-in one side, and
    any flat/non-bike shoe on the other. They are about as light as the
    best of the Looks. They do look odd, though. Should be under $60.
    	- Chris

    A while back there was a question on MKS clipless pedals which didn't
    get any response. Does anyone have any experience with these pedals?
    
    The reason that I ask is that the latest Performance catalog has them
    for a very good price in their "clearance" section...
    
    	Marty Sasaki

They are more comfortable, but safer?  Have you always suspected that you could
pull out of them in a sprint?  Well now you know (kind of) someone who has.

This past weekend we were doing some interval work and I jumped and tried to
accelerate as fast as I could.  Down in the drops, head down.  I was pushing
down on the right foot and pulling up on the left when it released.  I
literally flipped.  First impact was with the *back* of my head.

Now to be fair to LOOK (actually Mavic, but they are just the old LOOP Comps
painted gray) my cleats where quite worn and I didn't have the tension set to
the absolute limit.

I also remember climbing a steep hill (Hicks Rd) once with toe clips.  I was
working so hard that I pulled my foot out of the clips, even though I had then
as tight as I could.  However since I was only going about 5 MPH it was more
embarrassing then painful.

So I guess that the lessons are: 
        1) replace the cleats when they show signs of wear 
        2) keep the tension as high as is reasonable, you still have to get  
           out at stop lights of course 
        3) don't ride too close to me

    re .6
    
    Thanks for the story!  I was looking at my Look cleats the other day
    and noticed that they have worn so they are very thin in the front. 
    I'm going to replace those suckers before I ride again.  I hope you
    didn't hurt yourself in the crash.
    
    Mark

    
    Marty,   (RE: .5 ("MKS"))
    
    Here are notes, recent and other, about MKS clipless pedals.
    What further questions could I (or someone else) help answer?
    
 Topic  Author               Date         Repl  Title
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  1052   KUDZU::ELLIS        17-MAR-1989     2  MKS clipless pedals?
         KUDZU::ELLIS        20-MAR-1989  1052.2  Yes, MKS non-clipless do fine
        SHALOT::ELLIS        17-MAY-1989  1168.2  MKS update - a good bet
        SHALOT::ELLIS        19-JUL-1989  1168.21  MKS allows play
          BCSE::DESHARNAIS   13-FEB-1990  1168.25  Which shoes to use with MKS?
        SHALOT::ELLIS        13-FEB-1990  1168.26  MKS installation details
        SHALOT::ELLIS         3-DEC-1989  1379.16  MKS
    
    -john

I am going to get a new pair of pedals and just can't decide whether to go with
LOOK (or LOOKalikes like Shimano or Mavic) again or be persuaded by all the
advertisements and try the TIME?

My question is whether the TIME system is really an advantage or just
marketing?  Of course if it's just marketing then the new LOOK and Mavic seem
to be playing the same game.

Do the TIME have and tension adjustments that control how easily you slide
sideways and rotate as well as the force necessary to release?

Of course all opinions are welcome but I'd be particularly interested in
hearing from folks who actually own TIMEs.


In the "can you believe it" department, I was going to save the money and just
fix up my old pair ('87 Mavic (LOOK Comps in gray)).  I had striped the tension
adjustment screw and worn the back plate quite badly.  I found out you can get
rebuild kits so I was going to take them in to a shop yesterday.  I was in a
rush to get my kids to school and babysitter and I drove off with them in
a paper bag on the roof of my car.  Driving down a busy road I hear this
"clunk-clunk" sound and look in the rear-view mirror in time to see them
bouncing down the road in the middle of heavy traffic.  By the time I could get
back there is was too late.  So, it's back to the idea of a new pair.

My roommate, an ex-Cat II rider, bought Time Sport pedals and Sidi
Hawaii shoes last season.  He's very happy with his setup, only
wishes the Racing pedals were cheaper.

I'm planning to make the switch myself, since my shoes are nearly
worn out.

Are current Mavic pedals still Look-alikes, or do they now have their
own design?  From what I can tell, only Look's top-of-the-line
has Time-like flexibility.  True?

Thanks,
Dave Buffo

I'm also looking to get my first pair of clipless pedals.

In what ways are the Time and Look Carbon pedals supposed to be
better for your knees?  I've gotten knee problems just about every
spring (mostly from running, not biking), and I'd love to avoid them
when I get back in shape this year.

Ken

From what I've seen it looks like the new top-o-line LOOK comes with 2 cleats,
one allows no movement (like all current LOOK models) and the other allows the
heal to move about 7 degrees.  The new Mavic may not be a LOOK-alike any more. 
It also allows the heal to move but you can set the range of movement, ie where
LOOK is no movement or full 7 degree movement, Mavic allows you to set a little
movement, say 3 degrees if that's all you want.  The Campy model also allows
heal only movement and can be adjusted as well.  The TIME allows 5 degrees of
heal movement but also allows the foot to slide 7 mm left and right.  I don't
think there is any adjustment.

I talked to a few bike shops and the range of opinion is far apart.  Some think
TIME is great, some think it's nothing but marketing hype while others think
that is is down-right dangerous.  This latter group thinks that other
manufacturers like LOOK are simply caving into marketing pressure when they
release their versions of movement pedals.  They suggest that you buy something
like the new LOOK, see that the movement is no good and then switch to the no
movement cleat.

The range of opinions about the TIME pedal/shoe combination is also way across
the board.  Some say you really need to use the TIME shoes with the pedals that 
if you use the adapter then it will screw everything up.  Others say that the
adapter is so thin that even with it your foot is still closer to the pedan
axel then they would be with a LOOK pedal.

    I just bought a pair of Time Sports, my first pair of clipless pedals. 
    They are supposed to be better for the knees because they allow your
    foot to pivot slightly as you pedal.  This is the primary reason I
    bought the Times.  The bike shop where I got them wasn't very impressed
    by the Look Carbons for allowing movement.  The Times give you a
    greater range.  I was quite impressed by the Look Carbon price.  So
    far, I like them a lot.  They are far more comfortable than toe-clips,
    and feel more secure.  If you pay close attention, you can feel your
    foot move on the pedal, but in normal riding, you don't notice it.
    Disadvantages:  The show part of the system seems kind of heavy.  For
    look compatable shoes you install a plastic adaptor, then two metal
    lugs on each shoe.  Time shoes just use the metal lugs.  Also forget
    about walking in them.  I don't know how they compare with other
    clipless systems, but they are much more awkward than the conventional
    cleats were.  I might have more to say after this weekend, which will
    be my first long ride with them.
    
    Barry

    
    
    I used to own a pair of Time Criterium pedals.  I did not have Time
    shoes though.  I had a pair of Axo Turbo's.  This meant that I had to
    use the adapter between the cleats and the shoe.  I came real close to
    braking or spraining my ankle on a number of occasions.  I loved the
    pedals but did not like walking in the cleats.  I problably would have
    bought a pair of Time shoes for them but I now have a pair of Campy SGR
    pedals which are a stainless steel wonder.  The big difference between 
    the Time and the Campy's is that I have less lateral adjustment of my
    foot with the Campy's.  For me there is enough lateral adjustment but
    for someone else who knows.  For my other bike I purchased a pair of
    Look carbon arc's.  The new "bio" pedals.  These will be put on my
    other bike and I will let everyone know how I like them.
    
    						Norm
    
    
    Too bad shops don't let you test ride clipless pedals.
    
    
      

    >>I came real close to braking or spraining my ankle on a number of
    >>occasions.
    
    If you don't mind, could you elaborate on that?  Maybe I should look
    more seriously at getting a pair of Time shoes?
    
    >>Too bad shops don't let you test ride clipless pedals.
    
    Isn't that the truth!  When my toe-clip pedals died, I decided it would
    be a good time to keep up with technology.  It's really hard, though to
    look at a pedal on the counter and try and image what its like to ride
    it!
    
    >>I loved the pedals but did not like walking in the cleats. 
    
    Why walk when you have a bike?  :-)
    
    Barry

    
    
    >>If you don't mind could you elaborate on that?
    
    As I said I didn't use Time shoes.  I had to use the adapter between
    the cleats and the shoes.  The adapter adds about 1/2 an inch under the 
    foot.  Time cleats are narrower than the Look style and I found my foot
    "rolled over" very easy.  If I wasn't careful I would be standing on
    the side of my foot.  With the Time shoes I don't think the problem
    would have existed.
    
    >>Why walk when you have a bike?
    
    They wouldn't let me ride my bike into the ice cream shoppe.
    
    						Norm
    
    
    

    
    I'd love to use clipless pedals, and I'm sure they would be more
    efficient, comfortable etc etc...   The problem is I have 150 metres of
    25% down, followed by 150 metres of 25% up to get onto the main road (I
    say main road - that is 15% slope.  I did go out in my old plated
    racing shoes once, but had to walk up in my socks!
    
    The latest thought is a small lockable 'post-box' at the end of the
    road to keep the plated shoes in and change each time we go out....
    
    Curse this progress !!!
    

FYI - SHIMANO  has introduced a shoe and pedal combo for MT-biking that looks
like it would be a great system for clipless touring. It will let you walk in
the shoes and the cleat won't hit the ground. Also both sides of the pedal
accept the cleat. Also there is another clipless system that allows you to walk
in their shoes is the CycleBinding Sport Shoes and Pedal. CycleBinding also
allows rotational freedom of the foot if you want it.

     I have about 7k on my TIME pedals and shoes. I have had absolutely
    no problems with them. Initially, I had (and still do) a big problem
    with the price tag. 
    
     I will be getting the LOOK PP96's this weekend (I hope). Why? I can
    gain the advanatge of "bio" and the flexibility of shoe choice without
    screwing around with adaptors.
    
     The shoes are defintely "boat anchors" as are the pedals themselves.
    As stated earlier though, Campy is still the heavyweight champ.
    
     The shoes are not over comfortable and are not fun to walk in. I do
    have a spare set of cleats, but have not had to use them.
    
     There is enough diversity of function, price range and type of use
    considerations today where you do have to research and get opinions.
    
      Chip

    It's kind of a risk to buy something this expensive without trying them
    first but what-the-hell?  I ordered some TIMEs yesterday, the racing
    model.  $150 mail order from a place called "Bikes", that's the name,
    "Bikes".  I found a pair of last years TIME racing shoes on sale for
    $83, not cheap but then what shoes are today?

    They should be here by Saturday or Monday.  Report in a week or two.

    I've been out looking for clipless too, and been through a TON of notes
    in here, so let me see if I can summarize:
    
    MKS - allow angular adjustment, not very well known but seem to be
    working well for the people in here that have them, I haven't found
    these anywhere locally
    
    Samson - NOT well liked.  By either the inhabitants (mostly) of this
    notes file OR EITHER OF THE LOCAL STORES I TALKED TO.  In fact, they
    have Samsons on sale in the clearance bin.
    
    Cyclebinding - recessed cleat for good walking, Not compatible with
    anything else, very expensive
    
    Mavic - look compatible, lateral movement adjustable, I haven't been
    able to find these in ANY of the local stores
    
    Look - Only the top of the line has lateral movement adjustment
    
    Shimano - Look compatible, release is adjustable, look "maaaavelous"
    
    Time - lateral movement, not look compatible, very difficult to walk in
    shoes, non-Time shoes require adapter that adds approx. I cm to pedal
    shoe distance
    
    Anything I've missed?
    
    
    I looked at several Look pedals and it seems to me that if you aren't
    going to get the top line pedal with the lateral adjustment, you might
    as well get the cheapest pedal.  Its lighter than the others and seems
    to have the same adjustments...  right?  I also found a pair in a shop
    that doesn't even seem to know what they are...  the guy pulled them
    down for me to look at and didn't even know they were reversible -
    I can get them for less than $50.
    
    I'm leaning toward either the least expensive Looks or splurging and
    getting the Time Sport and Time shoes for arounc $200 (I think one of
    the local shops is selling the Times for less than Nashbar).  Opinions?
    
    I've also heard some references in here to (I think) Modolo bars that
    are supposed to be a more comfortable road bar...  are they just a
    Randenour (sp) bar or something really different?  
    
    Also, has anybody compared the Nashbar Lock cable to the Kryptocable? 
    I've got a Kryptonite lock, but would like to have a decent cable to
    loop through the trunk of my car to lock bike and bike carrier to the
    car when its in the parking lot at work.
    
    Lastly, has anyone actually gotten one of the new Avocet 50 altitude
    units?  If so, how is it?  Are all the functions easily accessible?  Is
    the display better than the one on the Cateye units?
    
    regards,
    Dave Perez

    Your description of the pedals sounds about right although I don't know
    about the reversible LOOKS.  The other LOOKS (excepting the new
    version) are pretty similar, but that's the case with all the other
    brands as well.  The more expensive models tend to be a bit lighter and
    have better bearing and such things but they work very much the same.

    I've had my TIMES for a couple weeks now and like them just fine.  I
    also have TIME shoes.  I've never really had knee problems but I did
    have a lot of leg cramps on long rides.  With the TIMES I haven't had
    any leg cramps yet.  This is unusual since I've done three long rides
    including one of 200 km.  All I can guess is that they allow you to
    move just enough to relieve leg stress.  If your foot is fixed and you
    try to move on each stroke then you are doing isometrics in effect and
    this could lead to cramps (I don't really know it's just a guess).

    TIMES also allow you to move side to side although I don't believe that
    you really do.  I think that you just find your correct left-right
    position and stay there.

    The TIME pedals are pretty light and the shoes aren't bad either, but
    the rear cleat is made of solid brass and must weigh a pound by itself!
    At least it should wear longer than the plastic LOOK cleats.  They are
    kind of hard to walk in because the rear cleat is so high and back
    quite far.  With the adapter adding even more they would be even
    tougher.  Also since the cleat is metal you have to be careful on hard
    smooth surfaces like tile floors.

    Re: Modolo bars.  What they did was to straightened out the bend in the
    bar where your hands are when you are in the drop position, that is in
    a race position or using the breaks.  It's a lot easier on your hands. 
    Modolo's are expensive but SR makes a version that is much cheaper.  I
    just got a pair and they do feel good.  My old pair of bars was a very
    shallow drop, tight hook, and your hands really get sore.

    I don't think that the Avocet 50 is out yet.  Still in beta-test I
    think.

    Dave,
    
    one difference between the bottom of the range Look road pedals and the
    other Looks is that the bottom of the range does not have adjustable
    spring tension.  The others have a micro sized screw head in the middle
    of the platform for turning up the tension when the springs get a bit
    tired.
    
    Richard.

    Re Avocet 50:
    
    This computer is listed in this year's Freewheel catalogue, out since
    March, and the importers are also advertising it in the UK magazines.
    However a US noter told me last week that Avocet in the US say it won't
    be available till August. So I phoned Freewheel here in Britain and
    they said they won't have it in stock until July the 31st.
    
    It's a bit naughty to pre-announce it like this.
    
    
    Rod

    	Dave,
    		I've found the bottom-of-the-line, reversible, Looks to be
    	fine. The other Looks have a higher tension and I have to adjust
    	them looser in order to get out easily. The b-o-l Looks are factory
    	set just about right. Buy 'em and use the money you save to get
    	them RAD'ed, using the Fit Kit.  In fact, whatever you get, I would
    	advise the RAD cleat fitting.  - Chris

    ps. The reversible feature comes in handy at times: At a big bike
    rally, when you are staying on a campus, and the dining hall is 1/2
    mile away, and you don't want to switch shoes 4 times in 30 minutes,
    the regular Looks can be a b!t@# to try to pedal with regular shoes,
    but the reversibles are OK. - C

Re .3


>     As for the type of clipless pedals, there are quite a few selection out
>     there these day. If you have any type of knee problem. I would suggest
>     you go with the Time system or the new Look Carbon Pro with the 2 
>     different cleats. It is not worth save $100 - $150 when your knees
>     could be screw up for life. 

I'm thinking about getting some clipless pedals and I have a history of knee
problems.  Could you expand on how the Look and Time pedals save your knees? 
What do you mean by "2 different cleats" for the Looks?

    re .22:
    
>    I've had my TIMES for a couple weeks now and like them just fine.  I
>    also have TIME shoes.  I've never really had knee problems but I did
>    have a lot of leg cramps on long rides.  With the TIMES I haven't had
>    any leg cramps yet.  
    
    If I get the Time pedals, I'll get the Time shoes so I don't have to
    use adapters.  I don't have BIG knee problems, but I did have some
    problems this winter when skiing, and I want to make SURE I don't
    encounter problems with the riding this summer.
    
>    TIMES also allow you to move side to side although I don't believe that
>    you really do.  I think that you just find your correct left-right
>    position and stay there.

    The big thing I like about the Time's is that ALL the models have the
    movement and angular adjustments, rather than just the $170
    top-of-the-line unit.
    
>    They are
>    kind of hard to walk in because the rear cleat is so high and back
>    quite far.  With the adapter adding even more they would be even
>    tougher.  Also since the cleat is metal you have to be careful on hard
>    smooth surfaces like tile floors.

    Everything I've read seems to be in agreement with you as to how
    impossible the shoes are to walk in.  This is the biggest concern I
    have about the Time pedals.  
    
>    Re: Modolo bars.  What they did was to straightened out the bend in the
>    bar where your hands are when you are in the drop position, that is in
>    a race position or using the breaks.  It's a lot easier on your hands. 
    
    Do these bars do anything useful for those of us who ride with our
    hands either on the tops, the curves behind the brake hoods, or on the
    brake hoods?  I've checked a couple local shops, but nobody here has
    known what I was talking aobut.
    
>    I don't think that the Avocet 50 is out yet.  Still in beta-test I
>    think.

    Ah.  I was going by the advertisement in the new Nashbar catalog - it
    doesn't say anything about not being available until summer.
    
    
    re .25:
    
    >right. Buy 'em and use the money you save to get them RAD'ed, using the
    >Fit Kit.  In fact, whatever you get, I would advise the RAD cleat
    >fitting.  
    
    Whatever set I buy, I have EVERY intention of getting them RAD'ed.  I
    have no desire to cause knee problems with the pedals that are supposed
    to keep me from getting them!!!!!!

    Actually, I'm torn.  I've heard from a number of people in this
    notesfile, and even a few people I've been on rides with, about how
    good the clipless pedals are.  But, I'm currently using standard MKS
    pedals and toe clips with Avocet touring shoes.  It has worked well for
    me, but I have this urge to get the clipless pedals in hopes of having
    more comfortable feet and being able to ride longer distances.  Ah,
    well...

>    Do these bars (Modolo) do anything useful for those of us who ride with our
>    hands either on the tops, the curves behind the brake hoods, or on the
>    brake hoods?  I've checked a couple local shops, but nobody here has
>    known what I was talking aobut.

The flats are in "the curves behind the brake hoods" which is what is meant by 
riding in/on the drops.  It is very comfortable, and on a long ride might cause 
less hand fatigue, but how many riders ride in the drops for very long?  (I 
don't... I'm on aero bars 8^) )

It is just a little improvement, and I don't know if I'd buy those bars just for 
that feature.  But if I was buying new bars anyway, I'd definitely get them, or 
ones of that style (SR makes a copy that is a lot cheaper... just put them on
our tandem and they are quite nice.)

Kevin

    >>I've also heard some references in here to (I think) Modolo bars that
    >>are supposed to be a more comfortable road bar...  are they just a
    >>Randenour (sp) bar or something really different?
    
    Dave,
    I have the Modolo bars on my road (racing) bike. They are more
    comfortable (or less painful) when riding on the drops while racing and
    make reaching for the brake levers a little easier (I have broad hands
    with relatively short fingers). They also have a more gradual bend at
    the top, like the Cinelli (I think it's model #66) and some ttt's which
    makes them more comfortable when riding on the tops on longer rides. I
    also raise the stem for long road rides. They were expensive but I got
    the bar and stem "on sale". There used to be two models: heat treated
    and not h.t.
    
    I'll be interested to see what you decide for the pedals.
    Roger 

I've been looking for stores that sell the Time or Look shoes (I'd 
rather not have to get a pair of cleats and an adapter if I can avoid
it.)

I tried Belmont Wheelworks and REI, but neither had them.  Can anyone
recommend a store in the Boston area that might carry them.

Ken

    for Time shoes, Northeast Bikes, rte. 1 North, Saugus, just North of
    Walnut Street, past Augustine's Plaza. Ask for Steve. Tell him "Jack the
    Russian" sent you. tel. (617) 233-2664.
    

When I bought my Time pedals at Belmont a month ago, they had a good stock
of Time shoes.  Are they out of stock in your size, or have they suddenly 
stopped carrying them?

International Bicycle in Brighton was running ads for Time pedals, but I
don't know if they carry the shoes.

Happy shopping,
Dave Buffo

FYI
The NASHBAR outlet in Needham has Time Sport shoes and both sets of pedals.

I was there the other day and tried the Sports on. They were comfortable but
I couldn't get the correct fit without going to a half size, which they didn't
have. $109.00 for the sport pedal and $89.90 for the sport shoes.

Tom

    I don't understand .30    You don't have to have Look shoes to use
    Look cleats. No 'adapter's are needed if the non-Look shoes are drilled
    for Look cleats, usually termed Look compatible.  What did you mean by
    'rather not have to get a pair of cleats and an adapter' ??  - Chris

    I believe in .30 the adapters were for the Time peddle/cleat system 
    since they don't use the standard LOOK drilling.  The adapter adds a
    good 1/2 inch to the bottom of the shoe.  The only way around this is
    to buy TIME shoes but when you add $90 for shoes and at least $100 for
    peddles you're looking at a healthy investment.
    
    Gary

>    <<< Note 1455.35 by 7R7NET::BURTT "Still crazy after all these years" >>>
>                             -< Adapters for Time >-
>
>    I believe in .30 the adapters were for the Time peddle/cleat system 
>    since they don't use the standard LOOK drilling.  The adapter adds a
>    good 1/2 inch to the bottom of the shoe.  The only way around this is
>    to buy TIME shoes but when you add $90 for shoes and at least $100 for
>    peddles you're looking at a healthy investment.
>    
>    Gary


Time shoes are look drilled and can be used without an adaptor.  The only time 
you need an adaptor is if your using non-time shoes with time pedals.

    A week ago on Sunday I came off the bike when I hit the kerb after
    swerving to avoid a dog, and currently my right forearm and hand is in
    plaster due to fracturing a bone in my hand. The reason I mention it
    here is that the other injury I received was a sprained left ankle from
    the wrench involved in pulling my foot out of the toeclipped and
    strapped pedal. I distinctly remember worrying about how my foot was
    going to release as I went over. 
    
    Looking at the shoe, I see I've broken the cleat, and looking at the
    pedal (Dura-Ace) I see that the steel plate at the back of the pedal
    that the cleat lodges on is slightly bent. A lot of force was involved!
    My right foot came out without problem however.
    
    Anyway, I suspect my foot would have released much more easily had I
    been using clipless, so I'm inclined to have a pair by the time I can
    get back on the bike. I'm leaning towards something like the Shimano
    105 pedal.
    
    Do you think my foot would have released more easily, to the extent
    that I wouldn't have received that injury, if I'd been using clipless
    pedals?
    
    
    Rod

I would think that you'd come out of clipless pedals easier (assuming that you
normally really crank down on the toe straps...ouch!), but realize that if you 
apply force in the wrong direction (which is usually up... a seemingly 
instinctive thing to do) with clipless pedals, you don't usually come out of 
them either.  That is what you usually see people doing as they're falling over 
after having stopped without stepping out of one pedal.  Now that I think of it,
its normal with toe straps to pull up to get out... maybe that's why it seems
instinctive.  Despite that disclaimer, I'd still recommend them as being much 
safer in ALL situations.

Hope you heal quickly,

Kevin

RE>>                    -< Don't pull up on clipless pedals... >-

I believe the 105 clipless pedals allow for release when you pull up, or you
can adjust them for standard LOOK style release.

Tom

    Didn't Shimano just introduce a pedal which you could set to release
    either sideways only or both sideways and up?  Seem to remember an ad
    in Bicycling.                                

Seems unlikely to me to have a clipless pedal that releases up.  Since there's 
no strap to hold your foot in on the upstroke, how would anyone pull up on the 
pedals without releasing?  Or are we all to become just gear mashers?

Kevin

>Seems unlikely to me to have a clipless pedal that releases up.  Since there's 
>no strap to hold your foot in on the upstroke, how would anyone pull up on the 
>pedals without releasing?  

To quote the marketing release.

'Shimano PD 1056 Features "Multiple Release Mode" allowing the rider to select
between the standard heel-outward, or *heel-upward/diagonally-upward release.
With Multiple mode, gaining release requires less effort than on other pedal
models. Can also be used in "Single Release Mode" for riders who prefer only
the standard heel-outward release.'

If you look at the back of the 105/PD 1056 pedal you'll see it has another
pivot in the back plate. I guess it works like the heel retention on a ski
binding. In that it holds the foot down until the pressure causes a release.

Tom

    This information on the Shimano sounds interesting.  Does anyone have
    any personal experience with them?  I just got my new Performance
    catalog and noticed that they sell for $87.95....more affordable than
    the TIME system I've been looking at.
    
    Gary B

  >>  I just got my new Performance
  >>  catalog and noticed that they sell for $87.95....more affordable than
  >>  the TIME system I've been looking at.
    
I don't think you can compare TIME pedals with Shimano by price alone. Yes,
they both are clipless pedal systems but, the TIME pedals allow for angular 
rotation. The Shimano 105 pedals are being marketed towards the novice riders
that want an easier release method than the standard LOOK heel in/heel out
method.

Tom
	

    I wandered down to the fairly good local bike store the other night and
    looked at some clipless pedals...  They have Sampson, Look, and Time,
    and they're selling all of them at about the same prices as Nashbar -
    the Times are cheaper...
    
    But, even better I got some good advice from one of the sales folks. 
    In response to my question of "why should I get clipless pedals" she
    said,  "Clipless pedals are good if:"
    
    1.  You use cleated shoes and wear the straps so tight you get sore
    feet, and can't pull out of the straps in an emergency
    
    2.  You are in need of major top performance for competitive purposes
    
    3.  You don't need to do any walking
    
    4.  Alternatively, you can just GET them because you WANT them
    
    If you don't fit at least one or more of these, clipless pedals won't
    be of much benefit.
    
    I wear touring shoes without cleats because I'm out-of-shape so I walk
    up hills.  I wear my straps loose enough to be able to pull my feet out
    easily.  I SURE don't compete!  
    
    So, I'm left with the prospect of either buying clipless pedals just
    because I want them, or saving the money and following her last
    suggestion - "Buy a few more maps of bike routes and go find somewhere
    new to ride!"
    
    D

    Another reason for clipless pedals.  You have an artery on top of your
    foot -- between the two tendons, you can feel the pulse.  Tight straps
    can cut the blood flow to your feet and make them numb.
    
    ed

Speaking of numbness, I'm new to clipless pedals.  My new Trek came with LOOK 
P66 pedals and I bought shimano carbon cleated shoes.  When I ride I noticed
that my toes sometimes get numb.  Now my shoes are not too tight (can move them
around a bit in the shoe) or too small.  Does anyone else experience this?

The other thing, maybe related, is I tend to curl up my toes while riding.  When
I realise I'm doing this I straighten them out.  Strange eh!  Could this be the
cause of the numbness?


...Ed

LOOK made some touring shoes that use the LOOK cleat system, but the cleat was
recessed into a tennis shoe-like sole for easy walking.  NASHBAR has had them in
their catalog.  I don't know if they're still available, but they would seem to 
be a good choice for someone who wanted cleats but does a fair amount of walking
in them.

Kevin

    I've now ordered a pair of Shimano 1056 pedals, so when I get some
    experience with them I'll report back. For �50 they'd better be good!
    
    
    Rod

    Kev,
    	Are you sure they were Looks and not the Cyclebinding system? 
    I've never seen a recessed Look, but the Cyclebinding system has been
    that way since the proto's were shown in '86.
    	Re. a few back: another valid reason for going clipless is for
    help in climbing hills!  Regular cleats with well cinched down straps
    will give a similar assist, but it's easier to go from flat sole
    walkable shoes to clipless than go the same route via regular cleats.
    The Look style cleats are much easier to walk in than regular cleats,
    too.
    	How clipless help on hills: you end up a) putting power into a
    larger portion (greater % of 360 deg.) of each pedal stroke, so the
    peak force exerted can be lower [less tiring], and b) you end up using
    different muscles in your legs during part of the clipped-in pedal
    stroke - this also is good for the usually used pushing-on-the-pedals
    muscles.  For some people who can spin, being clipped to the pedals
    allows them to spin at a higher cadence without their feet flying off
    the pedals. This again allows you to use a lower gear with lower pedal
    pressure, but equal power due to the higher rpm (HP = torque X rpm).
    	- Chris

    re: the look cleated touring shoe
    
    I was thinking about getting these shoes since I have a wide foot, and
    the shoes are a bit wider than standard cycling shoes. I went to
    Nashbar and tried them on and they fit pretty well. The only problem is
    that they are like a tennis shoe with the cleat mounted in it. There is
    very little support given to your foot and the sole is very flexible.
    
    	Marty Sasaki

>The other thing, maybe related, is I tend to curl up my toes while riding.  When
>I realise I'm doing this I straighten them out.  Strange eh!  Could this be the
>cause of the numbness?

I think it's the constant pressure on the foot while pedaling, causes the blood
not to flow as well as it should. And tightening your toe muscles just makes it
worse. Even with my shoes on loose my feet will get numb. I just relax the
muscles in my foot for a short time and I'll be all set for a while.

Tom

>>LOOK made some touring shoes that use the LOOK cleat system, but the cleat was
>>recessed into a tennis shoe-like sole for easy walking.  NASHBAR has had them in
>>be a good choice for someone who wanted cleats but does a fair amount of walking

Kevin
    
    I tried these when they came out a few years ago.  The big problem
    is that the internal cleat is *non* adjustable like the external
    look cleats, so if you tend to have knee problems these cleats
    will relly do a lot of damage.  If you want the internal cleat
    use the cyclebinding shoe/pedal system or try the new Shimano
    Mountain Bike Shoe/Pedal system.
    
    					_Jerry

    Well, I promised in one of these notes I'd let everybody know what I
    bought in clipless once I finally made the plunge...
    
    I read about 30 notes in here on everything clipless I could find,
    asked questions, wandered the local bike shops, talked to people who
    use clipless pedals, and finally decided that:
    
    WHATEVER SOMEONE IS USING IS THE "ABSOLUTE BEST" AND EVERYTHING ELSE IS
    LESS GOOD!
    
    I tried about half a million different shoes, and looked at every
    clipless pedal I could find - even something called a Talon Avanti -
    which is a VERY strange looking pedal.
    
    Finally bought the Shimano 1056 and Nike TC Lite shoes that are really
    light and have a lot of mesh for coolness.  I also took the collective
    advice in here and had the RAD adjustment done.
    
    Some of the best quotes:
    
    "The Time shoes are the TALLEST I've ever seen.  They keep your feet
    further above the pedals than any other setup."
    
    "The Time shoes are the SHORTEST made.  They keep your feet closest to
    the pedals."
    
    My personal favorite - "RAD adjustment.  We don't believe in it.  Trial
    and error is better.  You just keep riding and adjusting until its
    "right"."
    
    "RAD adjustment is a good way to get the setup as close as possible
    without doing a lot of trial and error and possibly hurting a knee."
    
    "Shoes with Time cleats are very easy to walk in, even with the adapter
    plate."
    
    "Shoes with Time cleats are IMPOSSIBLE to walk in with the adapter
    plate, and more difficult than LOOK style cleats even without."
    
    "We sell 5 times as many Time setups as Look setups."
    
    "We sell about 70% Look and maybe 25% Time."
    
    "The Time is the hardest pedal to get into.  It takes a lot of force
    and a lot of people never master it."
    
    "The Time is REALLY easy to get into and out of.  Usually you only fall
    over about 3 times trying to get in or out of the pedal."
    
    ETC!
    
    It was a lot of fun trying things and fiddling around.  I got to try
    some of the different pedals on a Fit Kit machine.  I tried the Time,
    Shimano 105, and the Look PP66.  My TOTALLY UNPROFESSIONAL impressions
    - (NO FLAMES PLEASE)
    
    I liked the Look the least.  They weren't as positive releasing, and
    felt "taller"...  not very precise, but of the three I liked them
    least.
    
    The Time Sports and shimano 105s were both VERY nice.  But, the Time is
    harder to get into.  Also, the release requires more side movement than
    the Shimano.  The 105 was great.  Released like a dream.  Clicked in
    really easy, and I set them for Multi-release and pulled up, back,
    sideways, etc, and they pulled out perfect every time.  We adjusted the
    release pressure until I have to jerk up and out pretty hard before
    they release.  This should keep my feet in them for the amount of
    pressure I exert when climbing (I'm not a gear masher or a
    jumper-on-the-pedals).
    
    I really like the Nike shoes too.  They use three Velcro straps - toe,
    forefoot, and arch, to provide an adjustable,  positive fit.  Some of
    the others didn't feel as precise all across the foot.
    
    I found both the shoes and the pedals for less even than Nashbar sells
    them for.  Pedals $89.95, shoes $49.95, and they included the playtime
    and RAD fitting into the price.
    
    I went home and put the bike on the trainer.  Rode for a little while
    and clicked in and out repeatedly until I was comfortable with the way
    things worked.  This afternoon, if the RAIN stops, I'll go out and do a
    couple miles in the neighborhood.  Tomorrow I'm on a 30-40 miler so
    I'll find out how good they feel.  
    
    Thanks to everybody in here for sharing their opinions and experiences.
    It is GREAT to have a large body of experienced opinion available when
    forking out this kind of money for something as insignificant looking
    as a pedal!
    
    hoping to do miles if the sun ever comes out...
    
    

    Has anyone fitted Look plates to shoes not drilled for them? I'm trying
    to do just that but am worrying about the security of the fixing since
    it seems to me that the plate carries large forces. I'm thinking of
    using self-tapping screws but would welcome any advice.
    
    While I'm here, a completely unrelated question. Handlebars seem to
    come in widths of about 40 to 44 cm. What's the usual width for a
    moderately big person, ie me? (6', well, almost.)
    
    
    Rod

    Look pedals and replacement cleats come with hardware for fitting the
    cleat to shoes which were not drilled for Looks.  You would first drill
    holes in the shoes and then there is a set of female threaded things that
    you would put through the holes from the inside and then mount the
    cleats.  I think you would want to put an insole over the mounts
    though.
    
    (I have never done this.)
    
    ed

	re .55

	I mounted Look cleats to a pair of Vittoria shoes that were not
	drilled for them.  It really wasn't too hard.  I lined up the
	cleats so that my foot position would be the same as with my
	old style cleats and drilled in the center of the adjustment range.
	I never got around to putting an insole over the T-nuts either
	and they don't bother me.  In general, an insole is probably a 
	good idea, though.

	BTW, a "helpful hint":  Once your cleats are positioned, take
	something sharp and scratch the cleat outline into the bottom of
	the shoe.  That way, if the cleats ever loosen up and move, you'll
	know where they were.

	chris

    I worn out or broken several look cleats.  You can mark the outline of
    tHe cleat as a precaution [Murphy's insurance:-)] but if you forget to
    there should be no problem because the cleats have about 10 little pips
    on them which leave an impression in the sole.  You just line up the
    pips on the new cleat with those from the old.
    
    ed

    	I've also mounted Look cleats in shoes not ment for them: They come
    with 'T-nuts', a female threaded gizmo that goes inside the shoe. I had
    to apply some epoxy filler to smooth the edges of the T-nuts inside the
    shoe. Also, be careful that the screws are not too long and stick out
    of the T-nuts. You may have to grind them down a bit. 
    	Thankfully, this is a dissappearing problem since most new shoes
    are Look drilled.  - Chris

    Thanks for the info - now I know what to look for.
    
    Any takers on the handlebar width question?
    
    
    Rod

    Ahh, paragraph 2!  Your handlebar width should approximate your
    shoulder width.  I think the point of measurement is the end of
    you collarbone with your arms relaxed, hanging by your side.
    
    ed

FWIW, I'm 6' tall with broad shoulders and I was measured to need
between 43 and 44 cm handlebars. I bought 44 cm Cinelli but have
just put them on the bike and haven't had a chance to ride much
with them yet.

Greg

I reckon you should not go below 40 cm for your size.  FWIW, John Wilson down
here is about the same and I think has just gone to 42's and found them a great
improvement in comfort and handling.  Personally I use 40's but the main thing
for me is that the reach should not be too long.  Anyone remember League days
and South of France bars ?????

    Well, I got the T-nuts to mount Look cleats to the shoes. The
    mail-order shop said the same things as some replies here, that there
    wasn't much call for them anymore, but they dug up a set nevertheless
    and it did the job fine. They included a photocopy of the Dura-Ace
    clipless pedal instruction sheet which showed where to drill the holes.
    
    I'm very impressed with the Look system; it's a vast improvement over
    clips and straps. It's easier to clip into, just as secure but more
    comfortable, and much easier to release, especially in a hurry.
    
    For handlebars, on a measured 39" chest I went for 42cm bars. They feel
    OK, wider and more comfortable than the bars I had on the previous bike.
    
    
    Rod

    Well, I'm convinced...  the clipless pedals AREN'T just for go-fast,
    shaved leg, aero-bodied, double-century, speed demons any more!  Old,
    slow, overweight, balding, rotund, go-slow half-century folks can use
    'em too!  I've had my Shimano 1056s for about 3.5 weeks and THEY ARE
    GREAT!  I've put just over 300 miles on them DESPITE the #$%^&*(%$
    weather, and EVERYTHING Y'ALL SAID WAS RIGHT!!!!!  I've had NO knee
    problems, my speed is measurably higher (second night out of the box, I
    averaged 1.1 mph faster over my training loop), and on long rides (long
    for me - around 50 miles) my legs feel SIGNIFICANTLY better at the end. 
    I can even bend my ankles the day after a long ride - used to be that
    I'd wake up the day after a lengthy ride and they'd be VERY sore - no
    more.  And the feet - AAAAAAHHHHH the joys of having comfortable feet -
    the other night I put my touring shoes on and used the Winwood adapters
    for a 10 mile ride with my wife.  By the end my feet were hot and
    tired, and the soles were numb.  They feel better after 50 miles with
    the clipless than 10 with clips and straps.
    
    NOW, BEFORE Y'ALL GO GETTING A SWELLED HEAD - there is one thing you
    DIDN'T tell me - THE BLOODY SHOES HAVE NO NO NO TRACTION ON PAVED
    HILLS.  On a ride last weekend, I stopped suddenly about 80 percent of
    the way up a short steep climb (guy in front stopped and I had nowhere
    to go), clicked out and put a shoe down - the next thing I knew, I was
    rolling on the ground and the only thing I could think of was to roll
    out of the way of the bikes following me.  NO TRACTION AT ALL.  There
    was no damage to me or the bike - a small bit of road rash on the knee,
    but it was a VERY strange feeling to step down and suddenly be airborn!
    These cleats are like ice skates on a slanted surface.
    
    Oh, and for anybody that's stuck with this for this long - the Shimano
    1056 are GREAT.  I've needed the upward release 2 or 3 times, but
    when I've needed it I was VERY glad it was there.  In a panic, when I
    automatically yanked up and back - HARD - the pedal released.  Very
    comforting when converting from clips...
    
    Dave Perez
    In search of the perfect, flat, bikepath!

 --.65  In search of the perfect, flat, bikepath!

Get in shape for the Cross-Florida Ride.  First Sunday in May, Cocoa Beach to
Crystal River, approximately 175 miles.  Space Coast Freewheelers sponsor.

    re -.1:
    
>Get in shape for the Cross-Florida Ride.  First Sunday in May, Cocoa Beach to
>Crystal River, approximately 175 miles.  Space Coast Freewheelers sponsor.
    
    Um, er, I guess I did leave that a LITTLE open ended...  I meant a
    "BUD" light!!!!!!  I think my wife would have something to say if I was
    to wander off from Minneapolis to Florida for some weekend ride!  I'm
    not sure, but I suspect Digital would like to have me out there having
    that "ALL IMPORTANT REVENUE GENERATING EXPERIENCE" too!
    
    ah, well,

Set up a ride of your own.  Stock it the evening before with appropriate
beverages and food at appropriate intervals and set off the next day huntin'
for them stashes.  Bud Lights on the end of rope at the bottom of a cold creek
bed could be one of them --- please hold the environmental hazard comments,
just makin' like an ad.

Minnesota should have some good rides.  Hit up a local bicycle club.  If it is
like Seattle there are rides nearly every day for the rest of the Summer.

When is the bicycle across Wisconsin (BAW)? ...

    re -.1:
    
>Set up a ride of your own.  Stock it the evening before with appropriate
>beverages and food at appropriate intervals and set off the next day huntin'
>for them stashes.  
    
    Haven't gone to quite this extent, but I've found that with my rack bag
    (the Nashbar one with the hardshell for carrying camera equipment -
    makes a great small cooler) I can carry a couple extra bottles of
    frozen water, several fruits, and some extra gorp...  I've found that
    THE TRUE MEANING OF HAPPINESS is a COLD, ICY, bottle of water after
    about 40 miles on a hot day!  When the 2 in the cages have long since
    attained room temperature there's NOTHING like it...  
    
>Minnesota should have some good rides.  Hit up a local bicycle club.  If it is
>like Seattle there are rides nearly every day for the rest of the Summer.

    Oh, definitely...  There are normally multiple rides on any weekend
    day.  They're VERY big here on the "fund raiser" rides - you know the
    MS150 for multiple schlerosis, the KARE11 for some other charity, etc. 
    
    I've done several AYH rides this year, and several others from other
    bike clubs.  I find that I enjoy riding with people sometimes.  
    
    The thing that has worked well for me this year when its hot is to ride
    to a lake.  I'll map out 45 miles or so with a lake with a beach at
    least half way.  It makes a GREAT way to cool off during the ride!
    
>When is the bicycle across Wisconsin (BAW)? ...

    Don't know about the BAW but the TRAM 250 is coming up soon -
    unfortunately I don't think I'm up to 5 straight days of 50+
    miles/day...  YET!
    
    From what I've seen so far, Wisconsin is the midwest place for really
    nicely set up bike paths.  They have hundreds of miles of old train
    beds with smooth, groomed bike paths.  Often they run along rivers and
    through some really nice countryside.  Very impressive.  Minnesota is
    getting into the same thing and the local clubs are pushing hard for
    more.  

Has anyone tried the new Look Carbon Pro pedals?  They have a Shimano spindle
design and use the new Look ARC cleat.  Other than that they're probably similar
to the older Carbon model (and I don't know anything about that either!).  Any-
way, what I'm interested in is the claim that they have some rotational movement
(8 degrees?) via the ARC cleat.  It's hard to figure out if the claim is valid
from just holding the pedal and cleat in you hands.  The red cleat IS different
from the black one...and, in the box, you also get a grey cleate which is ALSO
different from both the black and the red.  Unfortunately, there's nothing in
the box to describe what the differences are and when to use which pedal (I
guess Look expects you to learn about these things from reading Bicycling
Magazine).

Anyway, I'm planning on buying some pedals soon.  I'm not sure if I want Time
pedals or not.  I've been using a fixed cleat for years and I like the clamped-
in feeling they provide.  The Time's feel almost too loose (on the display case
model they provide in most stores).  Anyway, if the Look ARC has a reasonable
amount of movement then maybe they're the better buy (for me).  I do like the
styling too...and from two bike shops, I understand the Look design is easier to
get into.

Anyway, I'm starting to have knee problems from running and I'm worried about
the long-term affects of non-rotational cleats.  I don't think the knee problem
comes from the cleat but they may exacerbate the situation.  (I pretty sure the
knee problem comes from running and not cycling because my knees sometimes hurt
AFTER running, but never cycling.  Also, this year, I ran during the spring
months and DIDN'T cycle at all, and my knees started to hurt then.  That's when
I went completely back to cycling...and the knee problem went away.)

Dick

    Dick,
    
    After you buy them would you please give us all an update!!!
    
    :-)
    
    John
    

      
    
    I have been using the Look Carbo pros for much of this year.  In the
    past I have used Time Criteriums, original Look, Campy SGR and
    Cyclebinding Pro.  My final opinion is go for the Look Carbo Pros.  
    They are easy to get into and out of.  They do not accidentally release
    (except when the cleats wear out).  The rotational freedom of the
    foot is just right (for me).  I don't have to rotate too far to get out
    and yet there is enough rotation while riding.  Using the red cleat
    will allow you to rotate on the pedal.  The other color cleat does not
    allow rotation.  You can use a red cleat in a regular Look pedal, I
    have done this on a friends bike but there will be no rotation.  
      A close second to the Carbo Pros are the Campy SGRs.  The action to
    get into them is more of a slide in than a step in but it is easily
    mastered.  To get out of them is a bear if the pedal and cleats are not 
    kept very clean.  I had them on the lightest setting one time and could
    not get out because the cleats were getting roughed up from walking on
    them.  I now spray the cleats with furniture polish or parafin and
    don't have any problems.  The Campys also weigh more but they are worth 
    the oohs and aahs they receive.  I am sure the Campys will last
    much longer than the Looks will.
      Finally a plug for Cyclebinding.  I use these on my touring bike.
    I bought the pro pedal (allows rotational freedom) with the Leader
    shoe.  This shoe is half way between a racing shoe and a touring shoe.
    They allow locked in security but also are easy to walk in because of 
    the recessed cleat.  I have used the Cyclebinding a few times on the 
    mountain bike also.  I ended up on my face a couple of times while
    climbing over a log until I learned that building up speed and jumping
    the log was easier.  Jumping is much easier when the feet are locked
    to the pedal.  So far the pedals are fine and the shoes do not seem 
    to be wearing out too fast.
      
    
    						Norm
    
      

     Another vote for the Carbon Pros. I've been using them all season
    and love them. Easy entry/exit and you can't pull out. Plus, they're
    a very light pedal. I used TIME's last year. No complaints other than
    the whole set-up (pedals/shoes) are pricey and very heavy in comparison
    to other offerings. I would advise against TIME's because you are re-
    stricted to their shoes... Yes, you can put adaptor plates on the 
    shoes to make them LOOK compatible, but why???
    
      Chip

	Has anyone had any experience with the new Mavic pedal. It is a
	Look compatible and you can adjust the amount of inward and outward
	rotation.

	Paul

    How about clipless offerings for mountain bike? Anyone have the
    Shimano setup?
    
    John

    Another plug for the CycleBindings. They work well, release when I
    want  them  to,  and  you  can  walk on them. So far they've never
    released  accidentally.  I like the rotational freedom they allow.
    It  felt  wierd at first, but after a couple of hundred miles, I'm
    sold on it.

--David

OK, I decided to buy the Look Carbon Pro's yesterday.  I only had a chance to
test them for 10 miles (before it got dark) and, not being an expert on clipless
pedals, I can't compare them to other clipless pedals.

But!!!

I had no trouble getting in or out.  As a matter of fact, I was amazed at how
easy it really was.  When I use straps I usually have to start with on foot
firmly strapped in place, push off, and then with the right amount of momentum,
try to wriggle my other foot into place.  Sometimes this means pedaling with the
free foot loosely held on the bottom of the pedal.  Well, the first time I tried
the clipless pedal, out of habit, I took the same approach.  I discovered that
there's really no good way to use the pedal without really being clipped in.
So, the SECOND time I started from a dead stop, I modified my approach and tried
clipping-in quickly.  The pedal worked SO smoothly that I was jiggling about
trying to get it in WHEN IT ALREADY WAS IN!  The third time I was an expert.
(I wish I'd made the move to these types of pedals years ago!)

As far as the amount of rotational freedom is concerned, it seems more than ade-
quate.  As a matter of fact, I can't imagine why you'd want more.  having only
observing the Time pedals on someone else's bike, I think the Look's have a bit
less movement overall.  The Look toe is fixed and you rotate about it.  I think
in the Time setup, the ball of your foot is fixed and your heel AND toe rotate.
I'm not sure if one approach is better than another.

I've discovered that when I'm spinning, and NOT trying to intentionally move the
pedal about, I don't have ANY sensation of rotational freedom...nor any sense of
restriction of movement.  It's all incredibly neutral!  It could just be that
I'm so used to a fixed strap/cleat and that my knees are stuck in a grove...
or...maybe the Look pedal is actually keeping me locked in without my realizing
it.  I suspect the former.  If my suspicion is true, I'll bet that I might have
the same neutral sensation with a Time setup.  (This makes me wonder if having
an adjustable setup, as in the Mavic pedal, is worth the extra cost and effort.)

Anyway, as far as Time vs. Look "costs" are concenred...my nephew got Time shoes
and pedals for less than what I just paid.  I guess if he bought the top-of-the
line Time (criterium?) the costs would be closer.

All in all, and with only 10 miles under my belt, I think I'll be happy with the
remaining million!

Dick

P.S.
I also bought some Sidi Genius pedals because my older Sidi's didn't have the
Look pre-drilled holes.  There were rather expensive but they fit the best out
of all the pedals I tried on.  So I bought them both for fit and the gimmicky
ski-binding strap they have!  The reason I mention this is that the binding
ratchets easily - especially as you're riding - so you can make adjust- ments on
the go.  I don't know if there's much call for this, but just within the 10
miles I used this feature once.  Neat!

>>I also bought some Sidi Genius pedals because my older Sidi's didn't have the
                                 ^^^^^^
I think you mean shoes or cleats. 

Re: <<< Note 1455.78 by WAV13::DELORIEA "Jerseys @#%@!& Jerseys" >>>

Yes!  I meant shoes.  Hmmm...maybe I should go home.

Dick

    On the mountain bikes...
    
    I've seen a couple clipless setups that are made for ATBs.  One is the
    LOOK ATB pedals with the clipless on one side and a regular pedal on
    the other.  This is their least expensive - I've seen them as low as
    $50.
    
    Another one is (I believe) from Shimano but I wouldn't swear to it. 
    The pedal was black and VERY small - no platform at all - and had no
    top or bottom.  The clip was the same for both sides/ends and it looked
    like you clipped onto it rather than into it.  If you've seen a picture
    of the Samson Stratics pedal it looked similar but had locking
    mechanisms on front and rear.  The salesperson said it was specifically
    for ATBs - very rugged, and instead of spinning the pedal into
    position, you just clicked onto whichever side was up.  As I recall
    these were NOT cheap - over $140.  
    
    The salesperson said he used Time pedals on his ATB and absolutely
    loved them.  Could get in and out faster than with straps, and the
    pedals were pretty tolerant of the mud and crud he encountered.

    Well, since this note has deviated in the past from clipless pedals to
    1990 goals, I'll do it again...  I just gotta brag - 
    
    		I HIT BOTH MY 1990 GOALS THIS WEEKEND
    
    I passed 1500 miles on Saturday afternoon on a slow, easy ride down the
    Great River Route in Wisconsin, and on Sunday despite DISASTROUS early
    weather I rode the metric century with the La Crosse Wheelmen!  It
    ain't BMB, but this is from a guy that couldn't ride 3 miles 15 months
    ago!
    
    The sunday ride was doubtful since they had MASSIVE downpours and
    70-100 mph winds abour 6 a.m.  We finally got off around 9:30 and had
    to dodge trees that were down as we went through La Crosse, and foot
    deep flooded roads on La Crescente.  I also learned that firetrucks
    with their lights and sirens on don't look for bikes!
    
    Went south to Iowa into a 20+ mph headwind all 31 miles and took it
    easy since I didn't know how my energy would hold out.  But, THE WIND
    STAYED STRONG AND FROM THE SOUTH, and on the way back I hooked up with
    up some folks running about 19-23 mph and we FLEW home!  Energy held
    out great (I think it was all the cookies we had at halfway in Iowa!),
    and even with stops I averaged just over 13 mph going down and about
    17.5 coming back.  I felt great and the Cannondale was marvelous and
    very comfortable.
    
    And, the spaghetti dinner afterward was GOOOOOOD!

    
    And quite a respectable performance!  There are probably a lot
    of more experienced cyclists who wouldn't have persisted the
    way you did, and your average speed is just fine.
    
    What's for next year?  An English century?
    
    -john

    	OK, I'll ask. John, what's an "English century?"
    
    	Scott

    But if you want to go just a little further, you could always try a 
    "nautical century" (nautical miles).
    
    MATT (landlubber)

    
    Matt gave the answer.
    
    Of course, one could also suggest that a true English century
    wouldn't be complete without rain, sheep in the roadway, and
    scones after the ride.  
    
    -john

    As a matter of fact, the full century is my 1991 goal...  assuming I
    don't tear up anything by then - like a knee skiing or something.  For
    the rest of this year I think I'll just keep accumulating mileage and
    work on having fun!
    
    And, since this IS the clipless pedal note...
    
    I've just returned my THIRD set of Shimano 105 pedals.  In each case,
    after approximately 7-10 days, one or the other of the pedals develops
    a clicking sound.  It occurs right at the transition point at the top
    of the stroke just as you START to apply downward pressure.  
    
    Rather than simply replacing them this time, the shop is going to take
    the pedals apart - they surmise that normal grit is getting on the
    pedal and being propelled into the SEALED housing by the RAIN I keep
    having to drive and ride through.  
    
    In the most recent case, the bike was fine until Sunday (the flood,
    monsoon, MASSIVE downpour, sandbar across Southern Wisconsin) I rode
    and drove through for the metric century.  About 20 miles into the ride
    it started - a little click, click, click with every rotation.  Damn, I
    thought I finally had a set that wasn't going to do that!  
    
    Anyhow, they'll check the pedals, repack if possible, and if the
    bearings are gone, they'll either give me another set of the 105s or
    I'll switch to the Time pedals at my option.
    
    Comments?  I DO NOT want to upgrade in Shimano because I LIKE having
    the vertical release the 105 gives me.  The Ultegra and/or Dura Ace
    don't have that capability.  I understand that in addition to the
    lateral movement provided, the Time Sport will also release vertically
    in a panic situation.  But, do they seal better than the 105?  Or am I
    just a jinx of some kind?

    
    Ok, good luck on your century for next year!
    
    I have the Shimano 600's, and the right one developed a click
    after only a couple of months.  This was driving me crazy ...
    especially since my Cinelli stem/bar had started to creak
    violently going up hills.  
    
    I eventually lay the bike on its side (clicking pedal floorwards)
    and dumped some Tri-Flow in it.  After a few more miles, the
    clicking went away, and has stayed away so far.
    
    Alas, the 600's (Ultegra) share the Dura-Ace seals and bearings,
    I think, so your luck with this method may be different.  But
    it is worth a try.  It *is* scientific, after all, relying as it
    does on Newtonian principles such as Gravity. :-)
    
    -john

    I use Time sports, and I don't see how they can release vertically. 
    The rear cleat has a ledge that slips under a plate in the center of
    the pedal, and is held in that position by a spring in the back.  The
    cleat is tapered so that it slides into position going down, but once
    there it is well and truly trapped.  I don't know how the seals compare
    with Shimano, but I have had no problems so far, in 1000 or so miles. 
    The problems I have had is releasing when the cleats have gotten dirty
    from walking in gravel and/or dirt.  I find that I need to clean and
    lube the mating surfaces on occasion.  A couple of weeks ago a broke
    down and bought Time cleat covers, and that has improved the situation. 
    Clicking in is rarely a problem.  Trying to release an hour later as
    you are rolling up to some busy intersection is sometimes a wonderful
    surprise :-(.  Mavic now has Look compatables with lateral movement. 
    They are cheaper than Look's model, and more expensive than Time
    Sports.  I don't know if they release vertically or not.
    
    Barry

     "VERTICAL" release sounds, to me, like the last thing you'd want 
    them to do... Can you explain? I have never heard of this or any
    pedals being described as a release system having vertical capa-
    bility...
    
      Chip

    
    RE: Vertical Release
    
    As you may know, many clipless pedal designs feature a
    spring-loaded type of mechanism.  Some manufacturers have
    been able to increase the spring force so that in "vertical
    release" mode, the pedals actually catapult you off the bike,
    up and over nearby obstacles, and (hopefully) out of harm's way.
    
    This makes it doubly important to have a helmet that's in
    good working order.
    
    -john

>>                        -< Vertical Release explained >-
>>    ...  
>>    This makes it doubly important to have a helmet that's in
>>    good working order.
    
  What a riot! It must be Friday.

    re .87:
        
>    I eventually lay the bike on its side (clicking pedal floorwards)
>    and dumped some Tri-Flow in it.  After a few more miles, the
>    clicking went away, and has stayed away so far.
    
>    Alas, the 600's (Ultegra) share the Dura-Ace seals and bearings,
>    I think, so your luck with this method may be different.  But
>    it is worth a try.  It *is* scientific, after all, relying as it
>    does on Newtonian principles such as Gravity. :-)
    
    John, crazy or not, I'd take your advice any day!  As far as the
    Tri-Flow:
    
    They pulled both pedals apart this afternoon.  The seals were fine,
    innards were clean, green, and looking fine.  There was NO evidence of
    water, grit, infestation of undesirable material, etc.  They repacked
    and overpacked the pedals deliberately to make sure there was a good
    grease film at ALL contact points. 
    
    If it happens again, they'll try replacing the bearings and such, but I
    tried the pedals tonight and they were quiet.  BTW:  They did Tri-flow
    all the surfaces and tensioners and such.
    
    re .88:
    
>    I use Time sports, and I don't see how they can release vertically. 
    
    Yeesh.  I have 2 people at the bike shop that insist the Time's release
    vertically in an emergency and I don't know how either.  I looked at
    the Times and they look very determined NOT to let you release upward. 
    I'm confused.  Anybody else using Time pedals that release upwards?
    
    re .89:
>     "VERTICAL" release sounds, to me, like the last thing you'd want 
>    them to do... Can you explain? 
    
    The 105 is considered an "entry level" clipless pedal.  So, they give
    you the option of setting them for single release (normal swing out) or
    multi-mode release where you can either swing out or, in the event of
    an emergency pull up and back to release.  There is a tension
    adjustment that lets you set the amount of pressure it takes to release
    sideways and vertically.  It really works nicely - the few times I've
    had a problem like pulling up to a light and clicking one foot out,
    then getting off balance and falling toward the side that was still
    attached, the vertical release has saved me from a fall.  Normally, I
    automatically swing out without even thinking, but in a panic such as
    above my reflex is to jerk up and off the pedal.  The vertical release
    snaps my foot out.  I have the tension set high enough so that even
    when I pull upwards climbing a hill the feet stay firmly attached.  It
    is ONLY in a panic that they release.  At least so far.
    
    re .90:
        
>    been able to increase the spring force so that in "vertical
>    release" mode, the pedals actually catapult you off the bike,
>    up and over nearby obstacles, and (hopefully) out of harm's way.
    
    I'm not absolutely sure the 105s have this important safety feature. 
    It would have to be set up to handle different rider weights - I mean
    the tension that would lightly catapult me over the bars would send a
    150 pound rider into the treetops!  In either caes, I normally try to
    keep the tension on mine just BELOW the level that will shoot me off
    the bike!
    
    BTW: John, you gotta stop telling these kind of stories.  After all,
    some of us less sophisticated riders could be taken in by your
    subterfuge.  I personally spent 20 minutes reading the documentation
    with the pedals trying to figure out how to adjust the "flying time"
    for the catapult!

re .84

You could try an Irish century - where an Irish mile is a mile and a bit, and
sometimes the bit's as long as a mile..........

    Re 105SC vertical release: actually this is a feature for tandem riders
    who don't like their partners. When the chatter gets too wearing, just
    press a big red button on the handlebars and bingo! the chatterbox gets
    flung onto the verge. You'll see this in the next James Bond film.
    
    As to the actual vertical release mechanism: the 105SC pedals have a
    secondary pivot plate on the sprung plate at the back of the pedal. As
    far as I can see this gives way if you wrench your foot vertically and
    releases you. This little feature has saved me from embarrassment a
    couple of times, yet I have never released inadvertently. You can lock
    this secondary pivot so that the pedal behaves like any other Look-type
    pedal, but when I had it like that, I fell over twice because I
    couldn't release my foot in time. So now I leave it in (so-called)
    novice mode.
    
    
    Rod

     I've had TIME's and now run LOOK CARBO PRO and have hammered up
    some steep stuff pulling like the bee-gee-bers on the upstroke
    without a hint of release. I think my ankles would release
    "vertically" from my feet before those suckers would decide
    to let me out.... YEEEEOOOOOWWWW   :-)
    
       Chip 

    Re .93   Maybe that's why I can't get below 1:10 for 25   8-).

    A pedal update...  The regreased pedals didn't make noise for a little
    while...  unfortunately, about 30 miles later the left one started that
    familiar click.  So, back again.  This time they replaced the bearing
    assembly in the left pedal and called Shimano to see if THEY had any
    ideas.  
    
    The surmise from the bike shop is that the bearing assembly that slides
    into the pedal housing has a little too much clearance and that
    although there is no movement that you can feel, it moves enough under
    pressure to cause a slight click.  
    
    In any case, I put 65 miles on the bike today with no noises.  So,
    maybe the new bearings took care of the problem.  
    
    And speaking of 65 miles, it is amazing how much easier it is to do
    mileage after you've done it once.  Now that I KNOW I can go that far
    the element of uncertainty is gone and I just "DO IT"!  But, I have NO
    idea how you people do centuries.  I'm beat after the 65 miles today. 
    I can't imagine having to do another 35 at that point.  

    
    First of all, congratulations on your metric-plus!
    
    It's all (mostly) downhill after that.  I think you're right:
    it's what you think you can do that counts.  I'm sometimes amazed
    at the abstract thought of biking 100 miles, much less more.
    
    It will come with time (and some work, of course).  I think you'll
    be pleasantly surprised. 
    
    One hint, though: when you go for the extra mileage (or extra
    whatever), stack the cards in your favor if you can: get plenty
    of rest, eat right, and choose a day where the weather isn't going to
    do you in.  For example, trying your first century with highs in the
    90's is asking for trouble ... but pick a day you're comfortable with,
    maybe a little cool, so you can push without fear of overheating, and
    then you have a better chance.
    
    Keep up the good work.
    -john

    Centuries ... didn't anyone tell you ... they are always done on a
    motorbike  8-).

    
    I just got some rotational-freedom pedals for $16.  What a deal!
    
    Ok, that's the marginal cost.  I bought the new red Look cleats
    that let feet rotate on any standard Look-like (Look, Shimano, etc.)
    clipless pedal.  
    
    Haven't tried them yet, but they might be worth it.  I'll let you
    know ... if it stops raining long enough.  Anyone else tried these?
    
    -john

     I tried the look red cleats, rotation style, in my look pedals and
      on my look alike shimano pedals. Couldn't feel any difference riding
     however walking without knee pain after a ride is really an experience
     I would recomend. <:*)=


     ray

    re: last 2
    If they work, they'll have my vote for best new product of 1990.
    With my bum knee, I wasn't about to plunk down the cash for clipless
    pedals w/o rotation, and the ones that do allow rotation are not
    cheap.
    That said, does anyone use, or have used the Sampson 902's? There
    available for $60.00 at Colorado Cyclist, by the way.
    
    John

    re: last 3  

Sorry guys. The red cleat only rotates with the new LOOK Carbon Pro pedal. It
will work like the black cleat on the other pedals. 

Tom

    
    Yes, that is what the Performance catalog says, and what the New
    Product piece in Bicycling says.
    
    However, in fact yesterday's ride is testimony that you can shift 
    your feet (rotate them) in standard clipless pedals (mine being the 
    Shimano 600's), and my experience was that this helped relieve some
    fatigue and tension, especially out of the saddle.
    
    On the other hand, these cleats seem to make it harder to clip in
    and snap out of such pedals, and the rotation is not smooth - it
    is more like you can shift your feet.  I'd like to hear from others
    who have spent time with this set-up.  I'll report as time goes on.
    
    (I'm sure the red color makes me go faster, though. :-))
                                                                 -john

    I wonder if there is a way/place to file down the cleats to provide
    *some* rotation in the old style look and shimano pedals.
    
    John_who_needs_some_rotation_next_year_but_does_not_want_to_spend_big $

    
    
      I don't reccommend this but,  when I replaced by old cleats they
    were worn on the inside of the recess that engages in the hinged
    section of the pedal.  This extra wear gave a few degrees of play
    on the lateral axis.  This was not the reason I replaced the cleat
    though.  I replaced the cleat because the toe was worn and in danger 
    of breaking off.  I don't know what you would compromise by filing
    the inside of the cleat but I know it is still usable if you do.
    
    John C.
    

	my latest Performance and Trashbar catalogs (Spring) both list Look
	replacement cleats that do provide rotation with the older
	Look pedals (everything but 1990 Carbon Pro). Up to 9 degrees
	of side-to-side rotation.

	I'm willing to fork out $16.95 (peformance) to try.

	-tom

fwiw - I purchased a pair of the red 'arc' cleats for use with my shimano 105
clipless pedals.  They work fine and do provide a good amount of heel rotation,
much more than the stock shimano cleats which held the heel rigid.
	Greg

    re -.1:
    
    You beat me to it...  I also picked up a set of the red cleats and use
    them on my Shimano 105 pedals.  They do indeed rotate, and quite
    smoothly I might add.  I haven't had any experience with pedals like
    the Time, but these sure seem to do a good job of letting the
    knee/ankle flex laterally.  
    
    Once again, the denizens of the bicycling notes file strike with useful
    information!

    re: red cleats
    Are these compatible with other brands/models of clipless pedals?
    Sampson, for instance?
    
    John

>>    Are these compatible with other brands/models of clipless pedals?
>>    Sampson, for instance?
    
No, there not. They are only used on LOOK style pedals. That includes the
Shimano LOOK pedals also. The read cleat and the black cleat look almost the
same, except for the rear part of the cleat there is a difference. The black
cleat has a flat section where the pedal engages and the red cleat that section
is beveled. They look so much alike that I'm sure it is why the color coded
them.

Tom

    Would there happen to be any difference in the cleat of the shimano 105
    and the Dura Ace?  I was by Gamaches a couple weeks back w/ the idea of
    picking up some of these "red" cleats in order to get some rotation. 
    One of the guys went back, got one and put it in a Dura Ace clipless
    pedal and there didn't seem to be any rotation at all....
    
    Could he have had the wrong cleat? pedal?
    
    thanks
    	-John

At least one of the new catalogs I've just received, Performance or Nashbar, 
lists the new cleats as only working with certain pedal model numbers, and they
are all LOOK.  So it appears that the red cleats may not work with all LOOK 
compatible pedals.

Kevin

    The red Look "ARC" cleats only work with Look ARC pedals.  On other
    Look-compatible pedals, they work like the old black Look cleats.
    
    Ken

    
    RE: .-1
    
    Au contraire:
    
    The red "ARC" cleats *do* in fact work with other models:
    that is, they give rotational freedom (as opposed to the black cleats).
    
    I myself have verified this on Shimano 105's and Ultegra's.
    
    I have not tried them on the LOOK ARC pedals, so the action on
    those pedals may be a bit different, perhaps more ideal.  However,
    believe me, you do get useful rotational freedom using these cleats
    on the Shimano pedals (and presumably other LOOK's).
    
    Ken, do you have actual experience to back up your statement?
    Or is that just from specs?  Just curious.
                                                           -john

    Re: -1
    
    Thanks for the correction.
    
    I checked again.  There are apparently 2 versions of the red Look
    cleats.  The 1990 version gives rotational freedom only with the 1990
    Look ARC pedals.  They still work with other Look pedals, but give no
    rotational freedom.  The 1991 version of the red cleats give rotational
    freedom with all Look-compatible pedals except for the 1990 ARC pedals. 
    Look still sells the 1990 red cleats, so make sure you get the right
    ones.
    
    Ken

    Just talked w/ Performance Tech Dept. and they DON'T advise purchasing
    the new Look compatible cleat for the Shimano clipless.  They say
    they've tried it and that it's very messy.
    
    Supposidly, SHimano is coming out w/ a rotational pedal.  He wasn't
    sure about if they were coming out w/ a seperate cleat for the older
    models of SHimano clipless.
    
    -John

    Re: -1
    I'm not sure what "messy" means, but I tried it at a local shop and it
    seemed to work with Dura Ace pedals.  Getting the cleat out without a
    shoe attached was pretty tricky, though.
    
    Ken
    

>    Just talked w/ Performance Tech Dept. and they DON'T advise purchasing
>    the new Look compatible cleat for the Shimano clipless.  They say
>    they've tried it and that it's very messy.
    
    I'm not sure what they're talking about either, but I DEFINITELY have
    RED LOOK cleats with Shimano 105 pedals and they WORK FINE.  PERIOD. 
    They rotate smoothly back and forth...  
    
    Incidently, I ordered them from Performance...

    
    It was my bike-shop owner who steered me to using the red ARC
    cleats with my Ultegra's.  And they work fine.
    
    When my friend recently bought some 105's at another shop, the
    guy there (who also seems knowledgeable) switched out the black
    cleats that are supplied, with the red ARC cleats.
    
    So that's two bike-shop votes.
    
    PS: Thanks, Ken, for the added info (that ARC cleats for 1991
    are the ones we want).
    
    -john

I ended up ordering a Cannondale SR400 (thanks for all of the
advice in a different note). The decision between the SR400 and
SR600 was based partly on the fact that the 105 clipless pedals
did not provide rotation with the Look ARC cleat. The bike was
$625 for the 400 and is (I think) $795 for the 600.

Now, would I be better off spending $170 or so on Look Carbon Pros
or Look PP76 Carbon pedals or getting the the 600 w/105 pedals
with the 105 group vs the rx100 group? Why or why not?

If I get Look pedals, what are peoples opinions of the three top
end models:

	PP96 Carbon Pro 		400g		$184.95 (Nashbar)
	PP76 Carbon			434g		$154.95
	PP66 Racing			470g		$99.95

Thanks,
Greg

     I have the Look Carbon Pro's. I ran them all last year and love them.
    In fact, I love them so much I bought another set for my new road
    racing machine. Pricey, yup. But you won't be sorry if you you've
    got the money to spend.
    
     I had TIME the year before, but moved off of them because of weight
    and cleat inflexibility (these are pretty pricey too).
    
     Chip

    
    Chip, what do you mean by the "cleat inflexibility" of the TIME
    system?  I might consider using them, but haven't tried them out yet.
    
    Also, do you have any experience comparing the Carbo Pros to lesser
    Look or Shimano pedals?  What is the advantage?  Weight?
    
    -john

Chip,

I read all of the old notes on clipless pedals and began to focus
on Look instead of Time based on notes I read that were written
by you. As John mentioned in .-1, I think that the top end Carbon
Pro pedals sound great but what am I getting for my extra money
over the lower end Looks?

PP66 ---(+$55,-36g)-->PP76---(+$30,-34g)-->PP96
     ----------------(+$85,-70g)---------->

Is the difference only weight? Will a serious rec rider notice
the 70g from the PP66 to the PP96? Is there some functional
difference? Quality of construction? Different design?

Also, I reviewed the Cannondale specs and the SR600 comes with
Look PM66 pedals--does anyone know what the difference between
these and the PP66 pedals are?

Thanks Again,
Greg

    I'm trying to understand the logic of buying a $625 bicycle with $200
    pedals?  Basically, the only difference between the 3 Look pedals is
    weight.  There is also a relatively insignificant difference in the
    spring which I doubt that many people would notice.  So, my humble
    advice is to go for the $99 ones.  You should also look at Shimano
    pedals.  They may be a little heavier but you get better cornering.  A
    pair of Dure-Ace pedals sell for $170.
    
    Eric

     Eric is right. Unless you're into frivolous exotica, with the new
    ARC cleat you get rotation from the entire line. The other stuff,
    for those who are either serious (or want to look serious) are
    lean angles, weight, materials, sealed vs non-sealed bearing
    set-ups, multiple release stages, adjustable tensioning, LOOK
    compatible... etc...
    
     The TIME set up is exactly that. Their cleat to pedal is unique.
    Their shoe to pedal/cleat is exclusive too. You can get an adapter,
    but why? Their shoes are heavy, the cleats are heavy and the pedals
    are heavy.
    
      Chip

Eric and Chip,

Thanks for the advice, what I wanted to do was get the cheaper
pedals but didn't know if I was missing something obvious that
would make that a poor choice. My main desire for the pedals
is for rotation as I have some old knee injuries from other sports
that act up sometimes.

Thanks Again,
Greg

    Greg,
    
    Yea, after reading my reply, I may have sounded abrupt.  I realize that
    many like to buy something because it's the best (like those Merlin
    owners).  I just wanted to make a point that you should look at all
    options (Look vs Shimano vs ??) and see what fits your price and needs. 
    Although pedals are very important, you do start running into dimishing
    returns (I just can't wait to finish this economics course...) and can
    invest the difference into other components/accessories.
    
    Eric

Eric,

No problem, I do appreciate the feedback, though. I'm just trying to
get good value for the money I do have to spend. Since I'm not a racer
I have not idea whether 2 ounces per pedal is significant (expecially
to a non-racer like me). 

Now to following up on your advice re: Shimano, using Nashbar again
to compare: the 105 go for ($95,460g) and Look PP66 for ($100,470g).
Any reason to prefer on of these over the other? Am I over-analyzing
and beating a dead-horse?

Greg

	I read somewhere recently that some of the Look spindles are even made
in Japan, so there goes another reason for buying Look to avoid sponsoring the
Japanese market.  Oh well, I guess I'll have to continue my search for a BSA
chainset and Chater-Lea pedals to go with my Paris-Roubaix mechanism.........

>                     <<< Note 1455.130 by NODEX::OLEJARZ >>>
>
> Now to following up on your advice re: Shimano, using Nashbar again
> to compare: the 105 go for ($95,460g) and Look PP66 for ($100,470g).
> Any reason to prefer on of these over the other? 
    
    Yes. The Shimano 105 has an extra release mode which can be switched on
    or off. This mode is a lighter release all the time, and will also
    allow you to pull your shoe out upwards in an emergency (and it does
    too). Recommended. Earlier replies in this note discuss this in more
    detail.
    
    
    Re Robin: It's a world market, y'know, you can't trust anything these
    days! But remember, Shimano Look pedals are stamped "Product of
    France". Does anyone know whether they really are made in France, or
    does this wording result from some licensing deal?
    
    
    Rod

    
    To reiterate another difference with the 105's (Rod pointed out
    the multiple-release-mode feature): greater cornering angle on
    the Shimano 105 than the Look you mentioned.
    
    -john

    Re: -2
    
    Yes, I noticed the Product of France stamp on the box of my Shimano
    pedals.  My theory is that Japan bought France and has been able to
    keep it quiet.  Qu'en penses-tu? ;-)
    
    Eric_san

	Of course if you want to buy it, France is usually pretty keen to sell
- they sold Delion, Pensec, Bernard, Colotti, Leclercq, Ru�......

	But I'm confused about Eric's note (but then it is Friday after a long
week with the rain p...ing down), I thought the Look pedals had "Made in France"
stamped on them but actually had spindles "Made in Japan".  How long will I be
able to resist this new-fangled technology?  Having seen Mr Wilson hobbling
from v�lo to the infamous PMU bar in VBO last week, I think it will be some
time yet!!
	I love the idea of these pedals but hate the non-riding problems - I
challenge anyone to walk the last 300 metres to my house in them, even hardman
Rowlands had to walk up in his socks.  Anyone got any good news about the Time
TWT versions ????

    Once you decide on the 105 (I did), I believe the best place to order
    them mail order is Colorado Cycling.  I think I paid $69, and I do
    remember they were substantially cheaper (@$20) than Nashbar and
    also better than Performance.  I don't have their number handy, sorry. 
    -kb

    CO Cyclist:
    1-800-688-8600 (orders)
    1-719-576-3474 (info)
    1-719-576-3598 (fax)

    
    The Shimano pedals also have Product of France stamped in them.
    I'm as confused as anyone, as to who manufactures the
    parts, who does the assembly, and how the licensing goes.
    
    It's a strange impression.  Descente (French) clothing is marked
    "Fabriqu� en Japon" - which only adds to the confusion.
    
    Who's the third world country here??  Is France the Taiwan of Tokyo? :-)
    
    -john

Re .135
       > I love the idea of these pedals but hate the non-riding problems 
    
    Right on Robin. To hell with this new technology. Very few of us in this
    notesfile who are old enough to be able to resist it, it seems.
    
    Chris
    
    P.S: To those that think that weight is important - P=Mf (or F=Ma if
    you're really old) and delta M = infinitessimal. Marketing bulls**t and 
    user gullibility. IMHO of course.

    Rod, Robin and John (but mostly robin)
    
    	I like the idea of extra clearance - although I rarely need it when
    you do need it its nice to have.  Conversely I am appalled at the idea
    of a shoe/cleat combination which will release when pulled up.  A man
    could do himself a nasty injury if it released when you didnt want it
    to.  (I often get my back wheel off the ground when forcing myself up
    the nasty little rises they specialise in round here...)
    
    As for ``non-riding problems'', I'm afraid I dont understand - I find
    walking in look shoes *much* more comfortable than trad cleats and you don't
    kacker the cleat  (as I always did) by getting stones etc into the slit -
    the only risk is wearing out the tounge (yes this happened to me) of
    the look cleat.
    
    Finally I have to agree with Chris that unless you can justify *any*
    expense on a bike dont do it...  (I `justified' my looks in terms of
    not loosing 30 seconds when a race start - I have since justified them
    in terms of safety and comfort)
    
    rod
    
    PS Robin - its a lovely sunny day here and only one car tried to run
    me off the road today....

	Yes Rod, but you only walked from the car to the bike and from the
bike to the cafe!!  I have no problems with the idea for the bike, but having
seen people fall off in front of me during L'Epervier and also some trying to
walk the steep bit of Le Bouquet (20%) in them, I remain un-convinced.  During
both these I rode with conventional shoeplates and the Bobet saw me in shoes
without shoeplates - the main problem with that was the rubbing on the toes, I
think the toenails may just recover before the "Portes" !!

	Yes, you do get stones in conventional plates, but then that's what you
carry a car key for - I find the VW ones ideal for the purpose, but to really
look the part I suppose you could go and buy a Porsche blank and key fob.

	My latest shoes are French, and Carnac.  They have a shoeplate sunk into
the sole and a reinforcement along the sole to stiffen them up.  You can walk in
them easily, and they are great on the bike.  You can fit a Look plate, but this
would stick up and defeat the whole object in my opinion.  I'm afraid they are
no good for posing though, they are leather, black, with laces, and only have a
very small "Carnac" logo on them      ;>)

PS They squeak when you walk, but this means my wife can hear me walking up the
road and can have the tea ready to drink when I stagger in the door.

    Re .140: No need to be appalled. First, the upward release only occurs
    in drastic situations, such as "Omigod I'm falling over and my foot's
    still locked!" YANK and it releases. That's happened to me once, and
    never when I didn't want it to. Second, you can switch upward release
    off. Third, the 105 is the only Look-compatible pedal that can do this.
    
    As for walking, I found Look cleats less of a hassle than old-style
    cleats. Anyway, if there are 20% grades to be walked up, why not carry
    a pair of really light slippers?
    
    
    Rod

re .142

As a true individualist, I love the idea of getting to the bottom of Mt Bouquet,
and stopping to change into carpet slippers for the 6 km stroll up.  Preferably
the old style in faded check with bobbles on the front....... I can't wait to
see the video!!

    Well well well, a man tries to make HELPFUL comments, and all he gets
    is sarcy comebacks. Was it me who was complaining about walking up a
    20% incline? It was not. Can a man who lives on the Cote d'Azur find
    cheap and fashionable canvas shoes? I should imagine he can.
    
    
    Rod

	Well yes, I admit it.  I did carry my old gardening trainers with me
while riding the cols of the C�te d'Azur, just to make it hard.  I remember
Jean Robic saying to me in the good old days..�Aaah oui, fill your bidons with
lead shot, it makes you very fit going up and very fast going down...�  Of
course that was another method of getting lead poisoning... Then there was that
Belgian guy who bolted lead plates to his pedals because he found training too
easy......

	To return to sanity, no-one came back on my original question, Velo
2000 has a blurb on 2 pairs of Time shoes for "Cyclos" which claim TWT (Time
Walking Technology) - the "Century" @760FF(say $150) and the "Action" @570 (say
$115).  They look (and sound) like my Carnacs but you get the advantages of no
clips and the disadvantage of having to pay the price for Time pedals.  

Yes I saw those ads too and am (only slightly) beginning to regret buying
that pair of garish LOOK shoes - being one of those who walked up the Bouquet
in Clipless pedals last year...aha! but will have a triple this year!

I recall seeing somehting about either Shimano or Look about to introduce
the same kind of thing. Should make walking to the cafe much more enjoyable.

    I got the 91 Freewheel catalogue recently, which is produced by the
    British importers of Shimano. Anyway, it's full of stuff about
    Shimano's new off-road clipless pedal system (which is not compatible
    with Look). The pedals are double-sided and the shoes are designed for
    both serious walking and cycling. The cleat appears to be no hindrance
    at all, not sticking out in any way.
    
    Could be a way to go.
    
    
    Rod

    Is anyone familiar with the Look PP26? They're on sale for 40 bucks.
    I've wanted to try clipless pedals, but worried about knee problems.
    With the new cleat, I hope to avoid this.
    Would this pedal be a wise choice for a non-racer? (maybe in a year
    or two?)
    I'm sure these don't offer what the $150+ pedals have, but I'm not
    convinced I need that (I relatively happy with clips).
    
    John

    John,
    
    I think that I've seen the $40.00 pedals (PP26).  Depending on the type
    of riding that you do, they may be fine.  They certainly will give you
    an idea on what's it like to riding clipless.  Another factor to
    consider is converting your shoes over.  A Fit Kit may be a good idea
    so you have the right positioning.  It adds up...
    
    Eric

John,

I've got these pedals on my bad weather bike and our tandem, and they are fine!
My bad weather bike has fenders, lights and is not as stiff or light as my 
Marinoni but there's not much difference in my performance on either bike.

They're durable, have reflectors on the back (good for night riding) but just 
aren't as stylish as the other models.

Do have the cleats RADed if you get them.  Nault's in Manchester NH does a good 
job.

Kevin

ps.  You still at DDD?

    I passed on them. After comparing the rest of the Look line, I decided
    to resist the urge for a bargain. 
    Hi Kev. I'm at NQO now. BMS IS moved here last December(more may follow).
    The facilities don't compare, but at least there's a couple of showers.
               
    John

    I just bought a pair of PP26, on sale at Sportino in Geneva for SF60
    (about UK#24). Well, fashionable they aren't! Ugly big white things you
    might say. However, now that the racing bike is going back together,
    the Shimano clipless have to go it, so it's convenient to keep a pair
    of Look pedals on the touring bike. The pedal body is plastic, they
    have reflectors both sides, and the bearing quality seems high.
    
    And "convenient" is the operative word. You can flip the pedals and
    ride with normal shoes if you're just going for a jaunt into town, or
    use Look shoes for longer rides. Suits me fine.
    
    One thing though, I find the release setting rather high. I don't think
    it's the PP26 in particular, just that I've grown used to the light
    release of the Shimano 105 pedal on the 'multiple release' setting.
    When I've set the 105 pedals to 'single release', I find them just as
    stiff. Ho hum.
    
    
    Rod

    I've got a question about the release tension on my 1-month old
    Look PP66's.  I was just noticing today that my left foot releases
    a lot easier than my right.  Since I don't do track stands (yet),
    I end up releasing my left much more than my right.  Are they
    supposed to get easier to release the more you use them?  Both the
    pedals and the shoes (Shimano T100's) are only a month old, so they
    shouldn't be wearing out yet, should they? (only about 350 miles on
    them).

    I'm using the Look cleats that allow a few degrees of lateral motion
    (the red ones).  Looking at them, they don't appear to be twisted or
    loose.

    Thanks for any insight.
    Sue

    They shouldn't really get noticeably easier with age. 
    
    Have you tried adjusting the release tension on the left pedal? You
    should find an adjustment screw on the pedal somewhere that will
    tighten the spring to increase the release tension.
    
    
    Rod

     Sue, how's the wear on the cleat? I just replaced my ARC cleats
    and find a major difference in getting out (than with the old/worn)
    ones. Funny... you don't really notice the difference until there
    is one - Kinda sneaks up on you...
    
     Chip

    Well, taking a closer look, it appears that the left cleat might be a
    *tiny* bit more worn...  Should they wear out so fast? (where's that
    note on aluminum cleats...)  Granted, I have been walking out to the
    carport in them, a few hundred feet of asphalt.

    re. -.2.  There are three screws on the bottom.  Will adjusting them
    change the tension?  The cleats don't appear to be loose at all.

    Thanks,
    Sue

    Sue,
    
    You may need to adjust the cleats slightly.  Go for a ride and try to
    get the feel of where the cleats are position with respect to the shoes
    and pedals.
    
    Also check the tension screw on the pedals.  I don't think that the
    cleats are worn especially if you can't notice a difference (plus if
    the walking was the cause, BOTH would be worn).  Invest in a pair of
    cleat covers.
    
    No, I think that it's the position of the cleat that may already
    keeping the pedal slightly "open".  My humble opinion...
    
    Eric

    As .157 mentions, the tension adjustment screw is on the *pedal*. Sorry
    I didn't make that clear. You'll probably (I'm not familiar with the
    PP66 pedal) find a single large screw on each pedal. Turning it one way
    will increase release tension, and turning it the other way will reduce
    the tension.
    
    If there's any reason to suspect that the cleats on your shoes are
    badly placed, you should find some knowledgeable person to take a look.
    All us noters can do is speculate!
    
    
    Rod

>   As .157 mentions, the tension adjustment screw is on the *pedal*. Sorry
>    I didn't make that clear.

Rod,

Oops.  I just reread your note (.154)  You were abundantly clear.  For some 
reason I missed the word "pedal" twice in your note!  All I could think of were
the screws on my shoes. 

Thanks for the advice.  I'll check that the tension is the same on the *pedal*
adjustment screws, and I'll also watch my foot position to see if my cleats are 
keeping the pedal open.

Thanks,
Sue

    Try swapping the cleats, right to left. If the "looseness" moves, then
    you have a pretty good indication that it is cleat wear.
    
    	Marty Sasaki

    I haven't seen any mention in here of the "new" Nike Ultra shoes.  I
    tried a TON of different shoes over the past 2 weeks, and had trouble
    finding one that felt comfortable.  The Ultra did.  It uses a sock type
    inner shoe and straps on the outside. It has a strap heel counter so it
    can be adjusted quite a bit.  I also got the rotational cleats - which
    rotate around the ball of the foot instead of at the toe like the red
    Look cleats.
    
    These things are very expensive from Nike - $145.  From Nashbar they're
    $134.  BUT, at Cycle Goods, a mailorder place here in Minneapolis they
    were $89.  The cleats are another $20 and a worthwhile investment.  
    
    I've got about 50 miles on the shoes and so far they're a whole lot
    more comfortable than my old Nike TCs.

    Anyone have any comments on the new clipless pedals for use with shoes
    with recessed cleats?  The advantage of these systems is that you can
    walk normally; the cleats are small enough to recess into the sole of
    the shoe.  The 2 most popular systems seem to be the Time TWT and the
    Shimano SPD systems.  Are there any major differences between the 2? 
    Both systems have a cheaper pedal and a more expensive one.  Are the
    more expensive pedals worth the money?  A friend of mine is considering
    these for road/touring use.  Thanks.
    
    Ken
    

    I don't know much about them, but I also don't know about "walking
    normally" just because the shoe is flat on the bottom.

    Those shoes are so stiff that you really can't do much walking in
    any kind of comfort regardless if the cleat is there or not.  My
    own experience with "touring" shoes which were possible to walk in
    without pain, was that they didn't provide enough support and my feet
    would hurt when riding, sort of a catch 22.

    - Jim

Walking normally to me means being able to make it from the curb to the
caf�/restaurant/bikeshop without slipping over or doing a Silly Walk that even
J Clees would be impressed by.  I think if you expect to do both serious biking
and serious walking then you have to use two different pairs of shoes.

My Carnac "Grand Tourisme" have a conventional plate recessed into sole, you
can use normal pedals, they are stiff enough for the 240 km and 3 major cols
of the "Coppi" and I can walk as far as I need to (say 50 metres max!).

I would love to use clipless but find them impractical for my current riding.

    Well, I walked up 1.75 km of the Cayolle (right near the top where it's
    at 10%) this summer, in Look pedals, pushing a laden bike.  It was more
    the embarrassment than the difficulty of walking which affected me....
    
    But, for the most part I agree with Robin.  One rarely needs to walk
    any distance in cycling shoes.

I tried out a pair of TWTs this summer.  Although they provide the same 
functionality as the rest of the Time system, they are definitely for more
casual riders and touring.  Personally, I wasn't impressed but I tend to look
for high performance.

Eric

When I was at the trade show in Anaheim, I checked out these new pedals called
Bryne by Speedplay (San Diego).  The pedal looks like and is about the size
of an Oreo cookie.  The spring action is in the cleat instead of the pedal.

Let me give you some comparisions with other top of the line pedals:

Model		Double-sided	Degrees	  Weight 	Cornering	Retail 
		Entry		of Float  grams/pr	Lean Angle	Price

Bryne		Yes		33	   215		37o		$149.95

Look
Carbon Pro	No		9	   400		32o		$179.95

Mavic
646		No		10	   480		29o		$179.95

Sampson
Stractics TI	No		15	   170		36o		$199.95

Shimano
Dura Ace	No		Optional   416		34o		$179.95

Time
Titan Mag	No		10	   336		29o		$295.95
Criterium	No		10	   480		35o		$175.95


So the pedals are one of the lightest (next to Stractics TI) and have the best
cornering angle but the biggest features are the 33 degrees of float (5 degrees
inward and 28 degrees outward) and are the only ones with the double-sided 
entry.  After playing with them for a while, I found that the entry system
was practically idiot proof (good news, Chip ;-))

The cleats have 2 layers: aluminum over plastic.  The are of regular size cleats
and fit Look-compatable shoes.

The only negative comment that I can make is that it doesn't have the lateral
float that Time has.  

The bottom line:  I've ordered 2 pairs (for the Merlin and the Marinoni tandem).
They should be here in about 1 month.  Keep you posted - may have a couple of
pairs of Dura Ace pedals for sale...

Eric

    The cleats sound more complicated. How much are they?
    
    John

    I've toured  with  just  a pair of Bata Bikers for both riding and
    walking,  and  found  them satisfactory for both. I was not riding
    fast, but I was averaging 50-60 miles/day through the Rockies, and
    walking several miles some days.

    I now  use  CycleBindings,  which are no longer made, and find the
    racing  version  a bit slick to walk on, and the touring version a
    little  soft,  but  more  than  acceptable  for  riding,  and very
    comfortable for walking.

    As a tourist, I wouldn't consider a shoe which I can't walk around
    in comfortably.

--David

    
    I have used the Shimano SPD pedals with Diadora shoes for most of the
    season on my MTB.  They have been used for numerous races.  Most every
    ride packed them with mud and saw them slammed against rocks.  They
    still function perfectly.  I can't say the same for my Diadora shoes.
    On one ride my foot came off the pedal, but I knew the cleat had not
    released in the conventional way.  I looked down at the pedal and saw
    the cleat and part of the shoe still attached to the pedal.  
      Just for the hell of it I tried them out on my road bike one day.  
    My impression at the end of the day was that they would make great
    touring pedals.  When I am at the MTB races I tend to wear the shoes
    all day and do not suffer discomfort.
      During the early season when the Specialized offroad team was
    training by doing road racing they used their SPD offroad pedals and
    shoes.  
    
    						Norm
      

Re:.16

John,

The cleats, which has a thin 11 mm height, comes with the pedals.  Since I 
bought 2 pairs and since the outer layer is made of aluminum (which should lst),
I haven't worried too much about the replacing cleats.  I assume that the price
of replacement cleats may be more than Look or Time but not much more.  I'll
give them a call to get the price.

Looking at a picture of the cleat, it looks like a plate with a round hole in
it to fit the pedal.  The pedal as grooves or notches on the front and back 
outer edge where, when stepping in the pedal, spring loaded rigid wires (like a 
wire coat hanger) recessed in the cleat open up and snap close in the grooves.

Another nice feature of the pedal is that its body does not project below the
spindle where it may scrape the road while pedaling through tight corners.

Eric

    
    The table a few notes back gave the price of the pedals, not the
    system price, or the price to get into the system.  That's what's
    unfortunate about built-into-shoe cleat designs.  You have to purchase
    a new shoe, and you (generally) have to go with the pedal mfr's choice
    of shoe ... which may not fit your foot well, may not have the closure
    system you find best, etc.  
    
    These are problems that could be solved if recessed-cleat designs
    become standardized (like the Look 3-hole pattern) and even more,
    if recessed cleats can be replaced easily.
    
    I know if I spot a shoe on terrific sale (say $40 or $50 or $20/pair)
    that agree with my foot, I can go out and buy them, stick on some Look
    cleats, and go.  So the *incremental* cost of replacement shoes is even
    more telling with the "imbedded" schemes (shoe wedded to the pedal).
    
    I'm not saying, stay away from Time or Bryne or SPD or TWT, just be
    aware of the entry-cost and the incremental cost over time.
    
    -john

John,

Yes, I do agree with you.  When friends ask me if they should go for clipless 
pedals, I warn them that the cost of the pedals is not the only thing to 
consider.

Re: Bryne.  You may not have noticed but I did mention that the cleats fit Look
compatable shoes so my full cost is the pedals minus whatever I get for my used 
Dura-Ace pedals.

Eric

    
    Eric,
    
    No, I overlooked that point about Bryne & Look-compatible pedals.
    That does make them much more attractive for the reasons you gave!
    
    	-john

    
    I have SPD pedels on my mountain bike and use the Shimano M-100 shoes
    (I believe that is the right model #), and find the shoes very
    comfortable.  Since I have Look pedals on the road bike, that is 
    two pair of shoes, but due to the beating the MTN shoes take, it is
    worth it.  
    
    john

    Like Eric, I was intrigued enough by Bryne to buy a couple of pairs.
    They remind me of Time in reverse -- a heavy metal spring clamping 
    around another piece of medal, only in the case of Bryne, the metal
    is the pedal, not the cleat.
    
    With the @#$%&*! riding weather we've had in New England for the last two 
    weeks, I need more practice getting into the second pedal, but otherwise, 
    Byrnes seem great (and they're nowhere near as hard to get into as
    the Strat's).
    
    The lightness is noticeable -- I lost close to half a pound shifting
    from Ultegras.  Mechanically Brynes are so simple, I wonder why it took
    so long to introduce them (I talked to Speedplay, and they claim to
    have tested them for 2+ years).  
    
    Separating the clip-in mechanism from the pedal makes the function of 
    the spindle bearings the only real mechanical concern for the pedal itself.
    However, placing the springs in the cleats does make you more vulnerable to
    what you're walking in.  A pair of department store rubbers provide a
    temporary solution, if you have to walk in cycling shoes mounted with
    Bryne cleats.
    
    The cleats are supposedly Look-compatible, but that depends on your
    shoe.  I use Look shoes, and unlike Eric, mounting was *not* a breeze.
    I had to machine a couple of wedge-shaped shims in order for the cleats 
    to mount properly.
    
    As Eric mentions, a Bryne cleat is 3-layer:  the first is to supposedly 
    follow the contour of your shoe's sole; the second carries the spings and 
    mounts on top of the first layer (which *must* be flat, or the springs jam);
    the top aluminum layer acts both as a protector for the lower plastic
    layers and a final retainer for the springs.
    
    The cleat is also Time-compatible, and the mounting on a Time-style
    shoe is much easier.  Time soles already provide a flat surface for cleat 
    mounting, so you discard the lower Bryne layer and mount the second,
    spring-bearing layer directly to the sole.  I would say Brynes
    are *most* compatible with Time shoes.
    
    Diodara is now advertising a Time-compatible plate to be mounted
    to Look-compatible soles, and this might be a better bet than the
    first layer of the Bryne cleat, depending on the brand of shoe.
    
    I have a couple of hundred miles on my Brynes, but with ten pounds of
    clothing and below freezing temperatures, I'm not sure I'm fully 
    appreciating them.  Here are some of the things I've noticed:
    
    o I had to lower my seat 1cm to achieve the same position I had with my
      Ultegras.
    
    o My heels were all over the place the first few times I rode with
      Brynes, but as Speedplay promised, the feeling has begun to go away,
      with no special effort on my part.  My feet just seem to do the right
      thing.  The exception is an all-out, uphill sprint, which isn't
      too graceful under any circumstances.
    
    o When I want to pop out, it's a cinch, but I never pop out by mistake.
    
    o There is no "give" when yanking up hard.  The effect is kind of
      similar to yanking on a doorknob when the latch is in place.
    
    o Whatever the physics be, I find it easier to put power into the pedal
      stroke for the entire 360 degrees, particularly when I'm pulling back
      at the bottom of the stroke.
    
    o Speeplay advises that you lube the pedal and the cleat to make popping 
      in and out easier.  This is true, but it also attracts unwanted crap.
    
    o You can still pedal fairly effectively if you miss your kick-in.  This is
      important to me, since I'm interested in fast criterim starts, which
      obviously puts me in a minority of potential buyers.
    
    One little ad in VeloNews is what got me interested, and I'm glad I saw
    it (it hasn't appeared again).  The design isn't dirt-proof, but
    otherwise it's as close to perfect as any system yet made.
    
    Justin
    

    
    
       Yep - Bryne sure caught my eye too.
                                                                        
       So what are the axle bearings made of in the Bryne, are they
    conventional type sealed bearings? By the way I think I heard that 
    the Sampson Stratics have a different type of axle bearing- is this
    true, do they last?
       Reason why I am concerned is that one bearing in my Time pedals is
    starting to sound pretty horrific. After the fight I had with Time re-
    placing a broken pedal I can imagine how hard getting bearings from
    them will be. Who ever said pedal bearings have an easy life anyway?
    
    
                                                          /regards
                                                          Wayne V

    re: 177
    
    I broke a spring in my Time's (circa 1989), and O'neils Bike Shop just
    shipped it back for free spring replacement.  They said Time has been
    very good honoring warrantee stuff.  It did take 3 months...good thing
    it broke in December.
    
    steve
    
    

    
    Comments about pedal bearings reminded me that I have never done
    anything  to my shimano clipless pedals....  Should I??
    
    They came with a toothed plastic ring to take them apart with.
    I tried to open them this winter, but the plastic ring started to strip
    so I stopped.
    
    The pedals have ~15,000 miles on them, and there is a little bit of
    play in the bearings.  They turn smoothly though I guess they would
    since they seem a little loose.
    
    Soooooo,
    
    What to do?  
    
    	Don't fix it if it ain't broke?  
    
    	Am I riding on borrowed time?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Terry

I took apart one of my Shimano 105SC clipless pedals last year. The plastic
tool worked fine for me.

The grease inside the pedal has a very sharp smell, I must say. The bearings
were in good condition (fairly new). I cleaned everything and put new grease
in. Since the bearings looked pretty good, I couldn't be bothered doing the
other pedal, and haven't done either of them this winter.

After doing this, the bearings in the one I serviced didn't feel quite as
smooth as the unserviced one. But you can't notice that while you're cycling. 
Both continue to run well.


Rod

    
    thanks for your reply.  It sounds like I will do fine if I just leave them
    alone.  There is nothing wrong with the pedals, so I'll just run them
    till they ... (what?,... fall off!!!???  Miles from  home, the sun
    setting, cold and hungry, ..)  Oh well, I'll see what happens.
    
    
    Thanks again,
    
    Terry

    Speedplay has a complete parts price list for the Bryne pedals,
    so replacement parts are available, at least in theory.  However, 
    before dealers are going to stock parts on anything other than a 
    special order basis, the pedals must:
    
    o Be popular enough
    
    o Need spare parts
    
    My source still has part of his original order of a dozen sets, so
    Bryne hasn't taken the market by storm yet.  However, Leonard Zinn 
    will be doing a piece on Bryne in his VELONEWS Gadgets column, probably
    sometime in April.  This should help create some demand, at least among
    those who race and who follow racing.  I wouldn't be surprised to see
    them featured in the New Products column in BICYCLING before long.
    
    I suspect that Zinn's article will be mostly favorable, given that the 
    only problems I've had after 400 miles are:
    
    o Installation (because they can't make a cleat that's compatible with
      all shoe soles).
    
    o Grit getting into the cleats (which can be at least partly solved 
      with a set of cheap, department store rubbers).
    
    As for the bearings:  sealed roller bearings at one end of the spindle,
    needlepoint bearings at the other end (ask me which is which, and I'll
    consult the literature Speedplay sent me, now sitting at home).
    
    Justin

    I serviced my Shimano 105 pedals this year at the same time I was doing
    the rest of the bike..  I pulled them apart just to check the innards,
    grease condition, and to make sure there wasn't any visible wear. 
    Everything looked good and I suspect they can go quite a while before
    servicing again.  
    
    One thing I learned about these pedals is that if the bearings are not
    adjusted JUST RIGHT, the pedal will click with every stroke.  The tale
    of woe is in here someplace, but in short if you are getting a noise of
    this type, check the pedal bearings before you tear the bottom end of
    the bike apart!

So far, so good...

I bought 2 pairs, one for the Merlin and the other for the Marinoni tandem.  I
really haven't had the problems that Justin shared with us.  I clip in and out 
so easily that I have trouble believing that I'm in.  I haven't got the dirt
in cleat problem but I don't play in the mud with them (was that a shot, 
Justin?).  Although I can see how this could happen and am looking forward to 
seeing some cleat covers on the market (they'll have to get real popular before
that happens...

As with Justin, it did take a while for me to get used to the floating sensation.

Hot off the Press:

Speedplay is coming up with:

cleat covers (in 3 months)

ATB version pedal

Ti version: 150-160 grs a pair (ugh!!)

economy model (a la Time Sport)

and....

a full suspension road bike that "doesn't look like anything you've ever seen"
quoted by Richard Bryne to me 5 minutes ago...

     Re; The Ti version: Does this mean we'll see some "older" model
         Bryne pedals on the market soon??? :-)
    
         Chip_just_checking

    Probably means we'll be seeing Brynes for $150 and Brynes for over
    $200.

    Chip,
    
    Errrr... I don't think so but maybe 1 pair!!  I'll be just happy to get
    the covers.
    
    Eric_not_TiED_up_like_Chip

    Complete cleat assemby (set of two)			$35.00
    
    Fastener set (screws & nut inserts)			$ 5.00
    
    Sliding washers (set of six)			$10.50
    
    Pedal bodies (set of two)				$70.00
    
    Cartridge bearings (set of four)			$27.00
    
    Needle bearings (set of two)			$18.00
    
    Springs for cleats (set of four)			$ 6.00
    
    Spindles (steel, set of two)			$70.00
    
    Bottom plates (set of two)				$20.00
    
    Time shoe adapter kit				$ 8.00
    
    Contoured base plate				$ 8.00
    
    Spring housing (set of two)				$ 8.00
    
    Dust caps						$ 2.50
    
    Speedplay
    3880 Begonia Street
    San Diego, CA 92121
    (619) 453-4707
    	

    RE: .180
    
    Every once in a while, a Shimano pedal starts to click, and so I
    put some lubricant in it and it stops clicking.  I've never disassembled
    the Shimano pedals, and in the case of pedals, my motto is to leave
    well enough alone.
    
    Today I did notice that my older Shimano pair (Ultegras) have noticeable
    play (maybe a millimeter) - of course they also have hundreds and
    hundreds of miles on them.  I still will continue using them as they
    are.  So there!  Besides, maybe this is a way to get freedom-of-movement
    for free!  :-)
    
    -john

John,

re:     Today I did notice that my older Shimano pair (Ultegras) have noticeable
    play (maybe a millimeter) - of course they also have hundreds and
    hundreds of miles on them.  I still will continue using them as they

Hundreds and hundreds of miles, eh?  So these are a week or two old, right? :^)

Kevin

    Now that Look offers rotation in their pedals, is their any functional
    difference between Look and Time pedals.  I believe that Look has 5%
    rotation and Time 10%, is the extra 5% on Time pedals significant.
    
    Also, I just read that Time is coming out with a low end model, Sprint.
    Has anyone tried it?
    
    Jim

    
    I wouldn't say that Time's extra 5% rotational freedom is significant,
    unless you have an unusual joint-structure - in which case Time may
    provide an "orthopedic" effect.
    
    My understanding is that Time provides a "floating" system - the foot
    floats freely within the range of rotational freedom during the pedal
    stroke.  The Look ARC cleats don't "float" - you can move your foot,
    but it requires a slight force (a natural force when pedalling, but
    still a force) - rather, your feet tend to find their optimal angle
    and then stay put, during normal riding, with Look.
    
    Racers say another difference with Time is that the foot is a little
    closer to the pedal-axle, because the mechanisms (cleat and pedal)
    are more tightly integrated.  Is this a big deal?  Matter of opinion.
    
    -john (who has in fact changed back to Look black cleats from red)

Thanks to Fusberti's special offers at Christmas, I took the unbelievable step of
buying a pair of Look shoes and pedals.  The two Rods are now looking for another
old-timer to make the butt of their "stone-age" jokes...

At the time I thought I would be better off with the red plates to give me a bit
of leeway with adjustment, and I must say that I really felt unsafe - my feet
felt as if they would spring out at any time.  After 3 weeks I decided to try the
black ones and have felt much happier since.

As a matter of interest, with the great "Longo scandale" at the moment, Velo 2000
has a good article on the differences between Time and Look, with some
assessments on changing from current pro's.  It's all in French of course but if
anyone facies a copy, let me know an internal address.  The major arguments from
Longo are (1) because of the narrowness of her pelvis, Look pedals form too wide
a base, (which corresponds to a previous note saying the Time ones are nearer the
crank) and (2) that she pedals "heel-in" with her right foot which makes it
worse.

The interesting thing about (1) above is that she has been known to use a triple
chainset for the Women's Tour - I would have thought that if she was so sensitive
then the extra width there would have upset her as well.  I think one has to be
very careful about "endorsements" - the same Velo 2000 has a blurb that GL has
changed to Carnac because they suit his feet better, but I read in a "Cycling"
that the shoes he wears are specially made and bear as much resemblance to those
in the shops as they do to a pair of Green Wellies.  Also many of the pro's have
whatever they fancy and just use the requisite advertising sticker...

    
    Robin, I wasn't aware that the Looks sat farther out than the Times.
    Something else to consider, then.  Yes, please send the article to me
    @OPA.  Longo got a good write-up here of course for her Ore-Ida
    appearance.
    
    Did you need to refine the cleat-adjustment with the blacks, or were
    they right the first time?  
    
    -john
    
    (PS: To be precise, my pedals are Shimano, but they should have the 
    same fit as Look.)

    Looks offer rotational free float.  Times offer free float both
    rotationally and laterally.  The lateral float (side-to-side) is small,
    but noticable.  Riders used to sliding their slotted cleats side to
    side along the pedal cage will probably like this feature.
    
    A couple of other differences between Look and Time are that Time shoes
    mount the cleats pretty close to your foot, theoretically giving you a
    better pedal motion and lowering your seat a little for more stability
    in turns.  Also, Time has metal cleats which don't wear out as fast at
    the plastic (and not real cheap) Look cleats.
    
    Ken
    

    So how fast do Looks wear. I'm suspecting my Arcs of being
    done after about 2500 miles. Should I replace my cleats whenever
    I lubricate the chain ?
    
    ---alan

    
    Alan, it seems about that bad. :-( That's one reason I went back
    to black cleats - the red cleats really do seem to where quickly -
    a month and a half and that's it.
    
    -john

    
    
    John, let's put this into human terms. A month and a half for you is
    the equivalent of 3 years normal riding to us. :*)
    
    Graham.

    
    
      The difference between the red ARC cleats and the black cleats is
    simple.  The red cleats have a wider rear recess. (The place where the
    rear plate of the pedal engages the cleat.)  I found that after a
    thousand miles or so the black cleat become something like the red
    cleats through normal wear.  The wear thar you want look out for with
    look cleats is the toe.  If you walk on your cleats at all the toe
    will become thin very quickly.  If this part of the cleat becomes to
    thin it can snap.  To check this look at the cleat sidways and then
    compare to a new one.  You'll be able to notice a worn one very easily.
    
    John C.
    

    	I'm glad somebody mentioned that about the routine wear on
    black Look cleats.  My pedal stroke doesn't have any "abnormal"
    side play at the feet, but what _is_ there is "soaked-up" by the
    worn corners of the cleats.  I always thought the new rotational
    features were for people who didn't have the patience to wear down
    their cleats or those who have a need for what runners call
    "motion-control" devices/orthotics.  Since I've never tried them,
    I'll admit I probably don't understand what utility they offer.
    
     2
    r
    

     Wear from use or wear from walking? I've been using the red cleats
    for a couple of years without any problems. Granted, they are a little
    thin in the front, but no failures...
    
     Then again, I'm not pedalling a heavy ferrous type configuration 
    around either... :-)  Sorry...
    
        Chip

    
    >> Wear from use or wear from walking? ...
    
    The wear in my cleat(s) comes from putting down my foot (toe) at stops.
    I have worn out several cleats on my right shoe (the foot I use for
    balance), the left one goes on and on.  Since I can't put my foot flat
    on the ground while in the saddle I end up balanced on the point
    of the cleat, the part that eventually breaks off while hammering up
    some hill crowded with traffic.  Always a surprise!
    
    My cleat lasts about a year, which I guess is consistent with John's
    month-and-a-half or whatever he said.
    
    I have learned not to drag my foot when stopping.  I used to let the
    shoe touch gently on the road just before stopping; eliminating this
    habit greatly extended the life of the cleat.
    
    Terry
    
    p.s. No I don't do track stands.

    
    I too found the right cleat wearing out far faster (from putting
    that foot down at stops).  I don't think walking has a big effect
    in my case.
    
    But... with the ARC cleats, I also noticed them developing vertical
    play in a relatively short time.  This is troublesome!  I attribute
    this to the rotational freedom - that rotating wears down the underside
    of the cleat.  The black ones - which have been on for at least a 
    couple of months - shoe cleat-toe wear, as described, but no vertical play.
    
    -john

    re : "... not pedalling a heavy ferrous type configuration ..."
    
    Yeah, you should try a Randoneur bike sometime.  I've worn through a bunch
    of look cleats.  Pedalled 80 miles with a broken one in BMB 90.
    
    ed

In a week or two, I'll need to pick pedals for my new toy.  I'm presently using
Time Sports, with Time shoes, so I need to decide which Time pedal would be best.
I'll continue to use the Time Sports on the current bike.
I'm mostly looking at the Time Magnesium race vs. the Time Titan (Ti spindle).
One of the catalogs indicates the the Ti is for time trials.  My question is 
would it also be suitable for day-to-day normal riding?   Should I expect a
longevity or reliability problem with the Ti spindle vs. steel?  BTW, the bike
is a Klein Quantum with 600 Ultegra STI.  The weight advantage of the Ti is
very attractive, but I don't want to sacrifice reliability.  Opinions?

Thanks,
Barry

    My solution to the cleat wear problem was to go to the Nike rotational
    cleats.  They are a couple bucks cheaper than the Look ARC cleats AND
    the rotation is at the ball of the foot instead of the toe of the
    cleat.  I haven't tried but I suspect they'd work on any of the
    standard shoes that take a Look type cleat as long as the bottom is
    flat where the cleat goes!

    
    
    
       I was in a bike store this weekend and I found out that Time now
    makes a light magnesium version of there cleats. All 4 cleats now 
    weigh only about as much as one old style rear cleat. At $30.00
    Canadian I though they were a bit pricy but ......
    
    
    
    /regards
    Wayne V
    
    
    
    
    

    re: 1455.205
    
    Barry,
    
    Suggest you look into the Speedplay Bryne if you want a very
    light pedal that doesn't burn (much of) a hole in your wallet.  
    
    As for Ti vs. steel for a pedal spindle, my thoughts are similar
    to those on bottom bracket axles:  the manufacturers themselves
    don't seem to encourage "heavy duty" usage of these parts.  If
    one of them snaps on a downstroke, you could be in serious pain.
    
    On the one hand, simply because a material is good for a frame, 
    stem, or seatpost does not make it suitable for bottom bracket 
    or pedal spindles.  If that were the case, then we would see 
    spindles made from aluminum alloy.
    
    Campy's Super Record pedal was available in the late 70's with a Ti 
    spindle.  When pros were issued bikes equipped with these, one of their 
    first acts was to have the spindles changed back to steel, because the
    Ti spindles broke.
    
    These days, however, the industry is using much less brittle Ti alloys 
    than back in the late 70's.  I have yet to hear of a Time Ti spindle 
    breaking.  Then again, the Time Ti/Mag pedal/cleat costs $295 and weighs 
    roughly 200 gm more than the Bryne, which costs $150 (steel spindle).
    
    Justin
    

    SPINDLES
    Heat treated, chrome plated 4130 chrome moly with ground bearing
    surfaces.
    
    PEDAL BODIES
    Machined 7075 T-6 aluminum hard anodized.
    
    BEARINGS
    Each pedal has three precision bearings.  The bearings consist of one
    15mm wide needle bearing on the inboard side (sealed with an O ring)
    and two side-by-side stainless steel cartridge ball bearings on the
    outboard side (sealed with a replaceable dust cap.)
    
    CLEATS
    For Look-compatible shoes:
    
    Two layers of glass-filled nylon, the second recessed for pedal and
    springs.  A third layer of machined 7075 T-6 aluminum hard anodized
    protects the nylon layers.  Screws are pre-treated with Loctite.
    Springs are full-hardness stainless steel.
    
    For Time-compatible shoes:
    
    The lower nylon cleat layer is eliminated, and the spring-holding
    second layer is bolted directly to the sole, followed by the aluminum
    top layer.
    
    

    
    Bryne pedals are featured in the "What's Hot" column of June's "Bicycle
    Guide" (Vol. 9, No. 5).  Text of the article follows (the column shows
    pictures of the pedal and of the cleat mounted on the sole of a shoe):
    
    
         Compact Disc:
    
         Although bike shops are already crowded with endless
         varieties of clipless road pedals, the new Bryne X/2 Clipless
         Pedal System is worth making room for.  The Bryne pedal has a
         flat, circular body about the size of an Oreo cookie, with a
         pair of shallow grooves around its circumference.  When the
         pedal is pushed into its matching cleat, a pair of
         spring-loaded bars grip one of the grooves.  This arrangement
         holds the pedal and cleat but allows them to rotate freely
         through five degrees inward and 29 degrees of outward
         movement before disengaging.
    
         The advantages of the Bryne system read like a roadie's wish
         list.  Both sides of the pedal are the same, so you don't
         have to worry about which end is up--you just step on it and
         go.  The system is also extremely light:  A pair of pedals
         checks in at a mere 215 grams (the cleats and hardware add
         another 120 grams), about 250 grams (a half-pound) less than
         most clipless set-ups.  In addition, the cornering clearance
         is exceptional (approximately 37 degrees), and the
         low-profile cleat is easy to walk around on.  The low profile
         also means the distance between the pedal and the sole of
         your shoe is small--just 12 mm--so you don't have to raise
         your seat when switching to Brynes.
    
         The Bryne system's cleats bolt directly to either three-bolt
         Look-style or four-bolt Time TBT shoes.  Angular adjustment
         is unnecessary because of the ample range of rotational
         freeplay, although you can adjust the cleats side to side and
         fore and aft.  Another big draw is the look--they're cool. 
         The Bryne Pedal System sells for about $150.  For more
         information, contact Speedplay, 3880 Begonia St., San Diego,
         CA 92121; 619-453-4707.
    
    What the article fails to mention is that you remove a layer of the
    cleat when mounting to TBT shoes, reducing the distance from the sole
    of your shoe by another 3 or 4 mm (and reducing the weight of the
    "cleats and hardware" by 40 kg).
    
                                                       -- Mike

     George Gamache tells me he'll have a pair in soon (Bryne). I'll
    check them out.
    
     In the mean time I just picked up the Foster alloy replacement cleat
    for LOOK pedals. I haven't mounted them yet. They are gauranteed for
    a lifetime  (free replacement if they break or wear out).
    
     I just hope the things don't do a job on my pedals. Scott Kinsman
    (main mechanic at Gamache's) has been using them and really likes
    them.
    
     I'll report them when I get some history.
    
       Chip

>>    What the article fails to mention is that you remove a layer of the
>>    cleat when mounting to TBT shoes, reducing the distance from the sole
>>    of your shoe by another 3 or 4 mm (and reducing the weight of the
>>    "cleats and hardware" by 40 kg).


	40 kg! This must really improve your climbing ability. ;^)

RE: .212

Well, maybe not, but if we're talkin' grams, let's talk grams.  Actually, to be
truthful, the weight loss is probably not all of 40 kg, since on TBT shoes you
use longer bolts and two pair of thick washers as shims, but I'd say that they
weigh a lot less than the adapter-plate, short-bolts and nuts that they replace.
Whatever.

This weekend, I measured the thickness of the pedal to be 17mm.  Since the cleat
shims the top of the pedal off the sole of your (TBT) shoe by less than a milli-
meter, I'd say that distance between the sole and the center of the axle is a-
round 9mm (the same as Time's top of the line "Racing", "Titan" and "Equipe" 
pedals).  Time makes a big deal of this metric, claiming that the closer you get
your sole of your shoe to the center of the axle, the greater your pedalling
effeciency.

                                                            -- Mike

    
    
    	Or 7.9 of Chip's bike...   :*)
    
    Grham.

    
    I _meant_ 40 *grams*.  I think we all know that 8^).  40 kg (about 90
    lbs) is well over 4 times the weight of *my* bike.  The guy whose bike
    weighs 40 lbs (90/2.25) must be in pretty good shape.
    
    Actually, the plates and all the hardware for mounting them weight 60
    grams.  But you add some new hardware for mounting to TBT soles (eight
    screws and 8 washers), so 40-50 grams difference is probably correct.
    
                                                            -- Mike
    

    I have a pair of Look PP66's that I took off a bike I sold.  I've
    been thinking of putting clipless pedals on my Mtn. bike.  Would
    it be possible to use the PP66's on the mtn bike, or do I need to
    go with pedals made for off-road use?

    What's the difference between the off-road pedals and the road
    pedals?  I know that the cleat mechanism is different, but what is it
    about this difference that makes one more appropriate than the other?

    Thanks,
    Sue

    
    Sue, the main difference is that off-road clipless pedals are designed
    to hold up under wet, muddy conditions - (amazingly) the Shimano
    off-road pedals, and successors, allow you to snap in and snap out even
    in real muck.  The pedals are designed so that the muck oozes right
    through the pedal.
    
    The other difference is walkability: the Shimano SPD system, for
    example, has a recessed cleat which fits over/around the pedal,
    allowing you to hop off your bike, climb over a log or hibernating
    large animal, and then hop on again.  This is important in hard-core
    off-road use.  (Also nice for touring.)
    
    So you can certainly use your "road" pedals and cleats; you'll just
    be at a disadvantage in mud and on foot.
                                                             -john

    
    > Climb over hibernating large animal.....
     You are a brave man John! :-)

For offroad use, the Shimano SPD system works great.

To reiterate what John said, I don't think you even want to consider a Look
road setup on the dirt, when you have to get off the bike, that usually means
it is too rough to ride and trying to walk and push a bike in these conditions 
with a Look type cleat is going to be next to impossible (some of us have a 
hard time with Look cleats on the tiled floor in the kitchen, much less pushing
a Mtn Bike up a rocky slope ;-)

Getting used to a clipless setup on the Mtn Bike takes some time, its not
like when on the road and getting out of the pedal is infrequent and can
be considered ahead of time, like "Here I am coming up to a stop light, time
to twist out"  Off-road its more like, "Oh sh*t, my front wheel is stuck on
this root/rock and I am gonna crash now!"  twisting out has to become really
second nature, this takes some time (I have the scars to prove it ;-)

It really is amazing how well the SPD system handles the mud, the only complaint
I have heard is in ice/snow conditions they will ice up.

Walking with the SPD shoes is a real pleasure, for this reason I am really 
considering the new SPD road pedals for the road bike just for that 
kitchen floor traverse ;-)
   Greg

    
    In addition to john's reply (.219), the Shimano SPD system also 
    allows you to clip in from either side of the pedal, and to clip 
    in back-to-front or front-to-back.
    Mountain biking often forces you off the bike a lot more than 
    road biking. Steep hills, sandy rock faces, uphill mud, an unfamiliar
    course (burn out early and not able to make those last hills) all
    force you off the bike.... usually in a place where you really don't
    want to walk on a cleat. You are also more likely to walk due to 
    broken wheels, broken shifters, broken derailleurs. 
    I think that Look-type pedals would be fine for thrashing a trail 
    that you are very familiar with and that you (almost) never have to walk. 
    
    Someone asked about Shimano SPD pedals a few weeks back. I've had mine
    for 6 months now and really like them. For the first couple of months,
    I was ready to toss in the towel and sell them off. I fell 10-20
    times (I never fell even once with Shimano 105's on the road bike). It took
    a little longer, but its finally second nature for me to clip out in
    tight spots.  It also took a while to learn to clip into them on a 
    really steep hill while navigating a single track. Recently, though, 
    the pedals have become "invisible", and I never have to think of them
    or make a conscious effort to clip in or out. 
     

    Thanks for all the great replies.  You all confirmed what I suspected,
    but I thought it would be good to get the straight poop from the
    experts.  I don't think I can justify buying the SPD and the required
    shoes right now, but if I sell my PP66's I'll be part way there!

    thanks again,
    Sue

	Does anyone know of any clipless shoes that
	come in wide widths for Mountain Bikes?

	-dick

    ...or for that matter, ANY clipless shoe that comes in widths?

    Keeping in line with all of their other shoes, New Balance makes a
    bicycle shoe that can take a cleat that comes in widths. I don't know
    where one can buy one, but I've seen advertisements for them...
    
    	Marty Sasaki

    Few cycling shoes come in widths.  Each brand is a different width,
    however, so you should try several to see which fits you best.  Puma
    and Specialized, for example, are much wider than the Italian brands. 
    Also, some shoes (e.g., some Nikes) have very flexible uppers and can
    accomodate a wide variety of foot widths.
    
    Ken
    

    ...(althought that is exactly what I'm going to do... :^))
    
    Over the 4th we went to Indiana (ancestral home) and did a few bike
    rides with my brother- and sister-in-law.  They both recently converted
    to LOOK PP66 clipless pedals (on sale in Indy for $49) and they haven't
    been out on the road much with them.  I remember reading in this notes
    file that the average new clipless pedal user falls 6 times while
    getting used to the pedals...   Well, over the course of two days I got
    to watch one or the other of them fall over 5 times.  No damage to
    rider or bike - only pride.  I must confess an apparent cruel streak -
    it was absolutely hilarious!  For anyone old enough to remember
    Laugh-In - there was a character that sat on a tricycle and would pedal
    to a stop then topple over - IT LOOKED EXACTLY LIKE THAT!  He or she
    would pull up to a stop, realize they weren't getting out of the
    pedals, get the most amazing look on their face (calm resignation?),
    then topple over sideways.  It got so bad that by the second day
    everybody on the rides were yelling at them at every stop point to
    "click out"...  And, in my defense - I always went over and helped pick
    them up (Especially the sister-in-law!)
    
    So, new users take heart.  Apparently, everyone periodically makes a
    spectacle of themselves as they lay there on the ground flapping their
    arms and trying to free their foot from the pedals!
    
    I wonder if my expression was the same as theirs on the occasions when
    I've done the same thing?

    
    I wonder if this embarassment quotient was the motive force behind
    the multi-modal release in Shimano 105's.  Anybody avoided the
    half-dozen fallover break-in period by using 105's?
    
    -john

    
>>    I wonder if this embarassment quotient was the motive force behind
>>    the multi-modal release in Shimano 105's.  Anybody avoided the
>>    half-dozen fallover break-in period by using 105's?
    
	I've avoided the HdFoBiP by using the Sampson Stratics.  And the
	only time I have fallen, was when I broke the back of the cleat
	off and didn't realize it.

Paul

    
    -.1
    
    I have 105's and have never fallen over, so I guess they worked for
    me.  However, I released once while pulling up a hill, and the
    resultant pain and embarrassment made me lock out the easy release.
    
    I guess there's always something that can go wrong ...
    
    Terry

    re .229:
    
    Yup...  ME!  That was one of the principal reasons why I bought the
    105s.  I've never fallen over since when I forget to click out and
    panic the resultant jerk is enough to release from the pedal.  I've
    come close a number of times though...
    
    I've never pulled out on a hill, although I had to set the release
    tension pretty high - initially it wasn't high enough and I had to keep
    increasing it.  It takes one hell of a panic jerk to release, but when
    needed I've never had a problem generating the necessary force.  Of
    course, I'm also a wimpy climber so pulling out isn't a big danger.

     It only happened to once, during a century, in Vt at a small
    convenience store, during a stop... The locals loved it, but
    I got up very quickly and proceeded on my way. We were way up
    in Vt in a small town (hamlet?) and didn't want to be mistaken
    for road kill.
    
    I had Carbon Pros
    
        Chip

    	Kinda off the subject a bit, but...
    
    	In this year's Longsjo Classic criterium, going for the last
    	bonus sprint, Davis Phinney's left foot released from the
    	pedal. As Dick Ring mentioned, pretty scary. Especially when
    	you think about how hard and fast he was pedaling. Phinney
    	stayed up, but, he could have just as easily gone down.
    
    	Scott

    I made the clipless conversion without falling over (yet!) and without
    105s.  I bought used (Ultegra or Dura-Ace) non-panic-release pedals and
    started with very low click-in tension settings.  Sure enough, I forgot
    how to kick out once, but managed to rip out of the pedals anyway.  One
    cleat twisted slightly on the shoe.  I haven't forgotten since...
    
    One interesting side-effect of going to cleated pedals is that I get to
    the top of hills I might have walked previously, simply to avoid having
    to click in while starting uphill.  I also have to keep reminding
    myself that one can pull on the pedal as well as pushing on it.  I've
    had some leg cramps resulting from pedalling one-legged across an
    intersection or up a slight hill to get up enough momentum to click in
    the other cleat.
    
    On the whole, though, I love 'em.  I'll probably try the black cleats
    next to see if I prefer pedalling without the angular compliance.
    
    Andy

    
    I read through all the notes in this topic, but couldn't quite work out
    the answer to the following question:
    
    Is anyone out there using Shimano A525 (SPD) road pedals, or the
    Dura-Ace version ?
    
    I've got a pair of SPD-capable shoes, which I'm currently using with
    standard 105 clip/strap pedals. However, these tend to make my feet go
    numb if I have them done up properly, so I'm considering getting the
    A525 pedals. How do these compare to the other clipless road systems ?
    
    Trevor

    
    	Interesting article on Peiper's in Cycling Weekly. He prefers
    Shimano Dura Ace clipless because he can guarantee the quality. He
    doesn't like the systems that allow any movement of the foot, and says
    that those who complain about sore knees should look at the amount of
    play on the spindle that seems inherent on a lot of systems...
    
    Graham.

    Re: .236
    
    The Dura-Ace clipless pedals (at least the ones I have) are not SPD. 
    They are Look-compatible, which is not SPD-compatible.  They are very
    nice.  You can use the black cleats for 0 rotation or the red cleats
    for several degrees of rotation.  There is no lateral float as in the
    Time pedals.
    
    The SPD road pedals look cute.  They are a little lighter than the low
    end SPD mountain bike pedals.  I think the only major difference is
    that they only have a binding on one side of the pedal.  Personally, I
    think the 2-sided pedals are worth the extra weight and I have a set of
    these on my hybrid.  You can just stomp down and go.
    
    Ken
    

    I've had the Shimano SPD (A525) road clipless pedals for about a month now.
    I can't compare them to other clipless pedals but can tell you what I
    think of them.
    
    They are white and purple and look at little odd on my bright red trek
    1400 but I like them. There is a bit play in them in that I can 
    deliberatly move my ankle a little to the right or left if I want to. 
    Otherwise they stay in the same position. 
    
    I have no problem popping out of them but it must be by turning out the
    ankle to the side. When climbing I can pull up on them hard and don't pop
    out.
    
    I bought them for 2 reasons. #1 I had a pair of Shimano mountain biking
    shoes and didn't want to spend more money. I made a deal to have the
    A525 put on the trek instead of the Look pedals that normally come with
    the bike. #2 They are lighter than a lot of the other clipless pedals
    that I was looking at. I think they weigh 390 grams. 
    
    -- Mark
    
    
    

    I have a birth defect that caused my right foot to be turned outward at
    about a 20 degree angle.  Because of this, I can't participate in any
    sports that require both feet to be straight forward and parallel
    (i.e., skiing, skating, etc).  With my toe clips, this isn't a real
    problem as I can just put my foot in at an angle.  I do have a lot of
    grease on the inside heel of my right shoe where I hit occasionaly hit
    the chain on the upwards part of my stroke.
    
    Is there a clipless pedal made that will work with my foot?
    
    Bob

    Bob,
    
    Certainly!  I can only speak for LOOK compatible bindings. Depending
    on the shoes, they usually have a wider range of adjustments than
    "strapped-pedals".
    
    r�

The sampson stratics allow for significant foot rotation (15 degrees).
I think that is as much and maybe more than all the others.
Personally I dont like them as much as the LOOK cleats because the
cleat is very pronounced and difficult to walk on.   
-Larry Cohen

    re: .241
    
    >Why not?
    
    Well, I've never looked at clipless pedal systems closely to see just
    how tightly they hold ones foot.  I sort of envisioned something
    equivalent to a vise that prevented your foot from moving left or
    right w/out clipping out.  I read all the stories about people falling
    with their bike until they learn how to clip out properly and figured
    they must limit your motion a lot.
    
    Bob

    Actually, it's force-of-habit.  With straps, you bring your foot to
    the "top" (closer to your hand) to get out of the binding.  With
    LOOK's, it is the opposite; you pretty much lock-out your knee and
    twist from the hip.  People get distracted and forget until their
    bike is at a full stop and....

re. the last few on the A525 and new converts to clipless.

I bought the A525 and the A100 road shoe about 700 miles (3 or so months) ago.
Prior to that I was riding with clips and straps.  

I've found that the conversion to clipless was painless (cross my fingers, no 
falls yet).  Once you get used to clicking out, it becomes second nature.  I 
nearly fell once, when I was getting used to the system and somehow couldn't 
get out of the pedal.  I made a quick (and probably stupid) panic decision to 
bolt across the street rather than stop when I couldn't release.  Since that 
one time, I haven't had any problems getting out.  

You do get some rotational movement prior to release (probably about +/- 5 to 
10 deg) but the spring tries to recenter your foot.  I find that in normal 
riding, my heel is locked in place but if I want to wiggle it, I can.  After the
about 5 degree movement, you hit significantly more resistance which is the 
beginning of the release stage.  

In my recreational/light touring type of riding, I think that this is an
excellent system since I can get off and walk.  Also, my toes don't go numb
on long (for me >40 mile) rides.  I can easily walk for moderate distances in 
the A100 road shoe.  The sole is too stiff for really extended hikes, but the 
curvature of the sole and the recessed cleat make walking almost natural.  The 
only problems that I have are shop keepers that think that I have on normal 
LOOK/TIME type shoes and will be scratching up the floor.

I like the A525 pedal except that the paint is easily scratched by the metal
cleat.  When I first got the pedals, I had some problems getting clicked in and
both the top and bottom of my pedals have the lack of paint to prove that.
Once I mastered getting in (about a half a dozen rides), the serious scratching
was limited, although I probably still add a new scratch every now and then.

For you weight hungry types, the pedal is much lighter than the 105 that I was
comparing it against.  The shoe is heavier than LOOK road shoes due to the 
thicker outsole so the sum is probably equivalent.  The shop owner that I bought
the system from hinted that he had heard rumors that Shimano was going to offer
SPD as an option on a DuraAce system next year.  My guess is that they might
give up something in walkability for the racing set and end up with a 
signicantly lighter system.  (Just add Ti spindles and look out :-) )

    re: 240
    
    Bob, (with Looks) you can set your shoe/cleat up to give your 
    right foot the desired 20 degree from center initial location. 
    If you use the red cleats, they will allow your foot to pivot 
    a few degrees left and right of that initial location. 
    The cleat itself is not bolted straight forward on the shoe. It 
    offers a wide range of forward/rearward/sideways and angled
    positioning.  I don't think SPDs give you quite as much adjustment
    possibilities due to the recessed cleat, but I'd have to take
    a closer look at mine to verify it. 
    
    
    doug
     

    
    Thanks for the information on the A525 - I'm definitely off on a trip
    to the bike shop to have a look at some in the near future. I'll also
    bear in mind the comment about using the MTB version. 
    
> the system from hinted that he had heard rumors that Shimano was going to offer
> SPD as an option on a DuraAce system next year.  My guess is that they might
> give up something in walkability for the racing set and end up with a 
    
    I was looking at the latest Freewheel (UK mailorder co.) catalogue
    recently, which contained some '93 Shimano component details. This was
    where I first saw the A525, and there is also a Dura-Ace pedal listed,
    but I don't remember the number. There is also a new top-of-range SPD
    racing shoe that does not have a recessed cleat, and they explicitly
    say it is not designed for walking.
    
    Trevor

    re: clipless pedals and crooked feet...
    
    Thanks for the info.  I guess November might be a good time to start
    looking.
    
    Bob

    What does 'RAD' mean in reference to clipless pedals, etc.  I know what
    a Fit Kit is.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Bob

Bob,

The RAD for pedals is designed to align your cleat to your natural toe in/toe 
out tendency.

They put your bike on the windtrainer and put these weird pedals on the bike.
The pedals have two rods that come out from the side of them. One rod is the 
pedals axel axis and the other rod is for the cleats axis. Aligning the two
rods while peddling normally will align the cleat so your knees will be happy.

T

						-- Tom

    
    I went into a shop today to check out the A525 pedal and compare it
    against the same-price M525 mountain-bike equivalent, and the more
    expensive MTB pedal (XTR ?).
    
    I liked the A525 a lot - they are much smaller than Look pedals, and
    also look really neat. The M525 and the XTR model have the advantage of
    being double sided, but they look really clunky.
    
    So, I'm going to order myself a pair of A525s !
    
    Trevor

    
    I've now been using my SPD pedals for over a week (every day too, due
    to some antisocial git having nicked my car...), and they've lived up
    well to my expectations.
    
    Like Ron, I had a bit of difficulty getting the feel of clicking in,
    and my pedals also have a few scratches to demonstrate this, but I
    think the worst is now over. The cleat is not very big, and completely
    hidden by your foot, so it takes a bit of practice to know where to
    stand.
    
    I haven't fallen off yet, and I don't think I'm in any danger of doing
    so (famous last words there). I actually find them much easier to get
    out of than clips and straps. They seem to be very secure, even though
    I've got the release tension fairly low. 
    
    In terms of riding, I find being able to pull up hard on the pedal when
    out of the saddle a big help. What's more, my numb toes seem to be a
    thing of the past. I've even been wearing the shoes round the office in
    comfort. All in all, a well spent 40 quid.
    
    
    Trevor

    Let me state the obvious...Only certain combinations of clipless pedals
    and shoes will work together.  The way most people in here seem to
    solve this problem is by picking their pedals and then trying to find
    compatible shoes that fit well.
    
    Are we maybe doing this backwards???  I have wide feet.  I wear a size
    8.5/9 D shoe.  In fact, if I put my feet together, the result is very
    much like the foot of a duck.
    
    Can anybody think of a reason why I shouldn't find the shoe that fits
    the best and then pick a pedal that is compatible with the shoe?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Bob

Bob,

Most people take the pedal first route in order to get the features that that 
system offers. Such as the rotation/freedom of movement allowed by TIME. TIME
shoes save a lot of weight with the TIME pedal system, otherwise you have 
to add more weight to a LOOK compatible shoe.

Shimano's SPD system is another design that requires a special SPD compatible
shoe. SPD pedals have a very small cleat. This cleat is put into a cut out in
the bottom of the SPD compatible shoe. This system allows you to walk without
the cleat hitting the ground. Walking in Look or Time cleats can be an adventure
if you're not careful. SPD shoes/pedals are great for touring and MTB riding.
I have a set of Shimano SPD pedals and the Shimano SH-M051 shoes. They are 
really comfortable.

LOOK style pedals have the most variety of shoe's that will be compatible. 
As in the TIME system LOOK pedals and shoes are used by riders that are not 
looking for a shoe that they can walk in, but the LOOK cleat is not as bad as 
some other style systems for waking a short distance.

Most smaller pedal manufactures use the LOOK compatible shoe bolt pattern 
so they don't have to manufacture their own shoes. Also the buying public
will have the wide selection of shoes to buy.

So first question you need to ask is, will you want to be walking with the 
same shoes you ride in? Then you might want to stick with looking at SPD 
compatible shoes. 

If you just plan on using the shoes just for riding, then the systems that are
compatible with LOOK drilling are everywhere. You have so much variety that
you should be able to find a shoe first and then decide on what LOOK compatible
pedal you want.

Tom

    re: .255
    
    I'm leaning towards the SPD since it will allow me to walk thru the
    house to my bike without my wife killing me for scratching up the tile
    floor:-)  On the other hand, can you drive a car with a manual
    transmission while wearing the SPD shoes?  I would also like some
    rotation.
    
    I also thought that several brands of shoes could be drilled for a
    variety of cleat types, with the exception of SPD since it is a
    recessed cleat.  Am I wrong?
    
    Bob

    
>     floor:-)  On the other hand, can you drive a car with a manual
>     transmission while wearing the SPD shoes?  I would also like some
    
    Dodgy, I would say. There's too much risk of the shoe catching on
    something. I drove a couple of times in my SPD shoes before the I put
    the  cleats on, and that was bad enough.
    
    Trevor

Bob,

The SPD system does not have rotational freedom like TIME or ARC Look. 

>> Regarding walking in the house and driving...

That really is not a strong case for a `walking' system. Walking systems are 
used more in the instance that you are riding to a place where you'll be doing 
a lot of walking and you don't want to carry another pair of shoes. It is also
good for mountain biking, for those cases when you don't quite make it to the 
top of the hill fall over and need to walk the rest of the way up. 

SPD Positives:

	Walking without any problem.
	Shoes look like shoes, not some sort of elf shoe.
	Shoes fit like a sneaker.

SPD negatives:

	Not as much selection, yet.
	No rotation yet.
	Shoes tend to be more off road in design, so far.

SPD is just starting to make the scene. I believe that Shimano will explore the
use of SPD design more and more for road use. They are coming out with a 
Dura Ace SPD version soon. Will it use the same cleat as the previous design?
Will we see the SPD road shoes starting to make it big? 

SPD will be big, but I doubt the road cleat and the MTB cleat will work together
Shimano loves planned obsolescence. Getting rid of the LOOK patent rights at the 
same time is a bonus. 

    I think SPD will be big.  Many companies are now making SPD compatible
    mountain biking shoes.  Look and SPD are now the only clipless systems
    supported by the shoe companies.
    
    The walkability feature makes SPD very versitle.  I recently used it on
    a 2 week bicycling tour of Europe.  The stiffer (more efficient) SPD
    shoes aren't comfortable enough for extensive hiking, but there are
    more than adequate for tromping around castles and restaurants.  Yes, I
    could have used toe clips and touring shoes, but I like the comfort and
    convenience of going clipless.
    
    Of course, the biggest win of SPD is for mountain biking.  On steep
    terrain, getting into toe clips is almost impossible, but engaging SPD
    is easy.  The walkability is important when you have to push your bike
    up steep sections or carry it over trees and boulders.
    
    Ken
    

    I do strictly road riding.  When you say that the SPD shoe is more
    sneaker-like, does that mean that it is more comfortable?  It seems to
    me that with my wide feet, a softer shoe would be more comfortable.
    
    I currently use toe-clips with Avocet riding shoes.  If I keep the
    straps tight, but not squash-my-foot tight, the outside of my feet
    start hurting from the straps after about 8-10 miles.  Maybe the Avocet
    shoe isn't rigid enough on the side to prevent the strap from digging
    in.
    
    Bob

RE:> more comfortable

Yes, I find the SPD MTB shoes to be very sneaker like in the way they fit. 
Does this mean I would rather ride a century in them?  No way. My feet would 
over heat and you lose a bit of power in a soft shoe.

BUT!!!!!

Shimano is coming out with a Dura Ace road pedal that will use, (according to a
part owner of LANDRY'S) the same cleat as the MTB pedal. That means you'll find
a large selection of road only shoes coming out soon with the bolt holes for
SPD cleats. 

If you where to buy the SPD road pedal and use the MTB shoe, you could later
upgrade to a hardcore road shoe if you wanted.

Tom

I think that in 93 and beyond you'll probably find that SPD may offer the widest
range of choices in shoe design (for the hard to fit).  Look compatibles will 
still probably have more road/racing models to choose from (and if you have a 
non-traditional shaped foot you'll probably still be out of luck!). The SPD 
lines will go all the way from nearly hiking boot type shoes to non-walkable 
super light road racing shoes.  That'll probably mean that you could find
completely different fits by trading off the diffent options (weight, lugged
sole, uppers, etc.)

When I bought my SPD shoes back in June there was really only one road choice
but several MTB/Touring choices.  The latter ranged from very stiff and 
heavily cleated shoes for the serious MTBs to lighter less stiff shoes that look
and feel more like sneakers.  I think that even the least stiff of the shoes
are significantly stiffer than sneakers, probably comparible to low end touring
shoes used with clips.

My road shoes (Shimano A100) fit exactly like the low end Look compatible
Shimano shoes.  The only difference is the built up sole that surrounds the
cleat.  I think that they're probably as stiff (maybe more) than the low end
Look shoes.  With the Dura Ace line offering SPD, I'd bet that there'll be 
several other manufacturers offering SPD compatible shoes which may or may not 
offer walkability.  The downside of the walkability is the extra weight of the 
shoe.

As for planned obsolesence....   There are already two types of SPD cleats.
The normal cleats use a heel outward release, while the other type allows 
releasing using various diagonal out and up motions as well.  The road folks
obviously probably don't care about the diagonal modes so they'll probably
stick to the normal cleats.  At the moment, I believe that all cleat types/
shoes/pedals are interchangeable.  Could Shimano mess this up??? Probably...

    I decided to take my advice and select my shoe first.  I went to the
    bike shop and explained the problem with my wide feet, and that I also
    have sweating problems, so I was also interested in a shoe that had
    good breathing.  So, Jim only showed my his widest shoes with leather
    and mesh uppers.  The New Balance (I think) shoes were reasonably
    comfortable and had a well padded sole.  A Shimano shoe had less
    padding in the soles, but was slightly wider.  I tried the next size
    larger New Balance shoe, but it was too long.  It resulted in about 1.5
    thumb widths of room in the toe box.  That meant that the Shimano shoe
    was probably the right one for me.  I thought that the choice of a shoe
    would solve the pedal-system problem for me.  Wrong.  The Shimano shoe
    comes in a style for LOOK-compatible pedals and a style for the SPD
    pedals.  It's basically the same shoe, with a different bottom for
    the appropriate pedal system.  I was only interested in the
    bottom-of-the-line pedals in either system.  (I can't see putting $200
    or $300 pedals on a $400 bike.)  The price of the pedals for each
    system was within $5 of each other, so I opted for the SPD pedals.

    So, here's what I'm going to be getting:

    	Shimano A525 pedals @$104.99
    	Shimano A100 shoes  @$ 89.99

    Merry Christmas (or whatever holiday you may celebrate) to everyone.

    Bob

    FWIW,
    I also have the wide foot problem and ended up with the Shimano 110(?),
    about $125... (on top of Shimano 105 clips, but I would have thrown those
    out for a shoe that fit).
    
    Come to think of it, the Shimano shoes should have been on my list
    of mondo cool '92 purchases.  Kratz
      

I went and picked up the pedals and shoes this weekend.  I keep forgetting that
they give me (and everyone who is a member of Plano Bicycle Association) a 10%
discount on parts and and accessories.  This made the total price, including tax
$189.??.

Bob

    Had some problems with ice build up on my cleats (Shimano M737) while
    mtn biking this week end.  Is this a common problem that everyone has
    or is it just me?  I couldn't get my foot locked into the pedals more
    than once and it's real hard to ride over trails like that.

    You should remove the cleats in the winter and replace them with
    pedals/straps.  Non-retractable light plane owners take the 5mph
    hit and remove their wheel fairings for much the same reason (their
    "feet" get clogged with slush, freeze aloft, and make for interesting
    landings).  I'm too lazy to change mine and just leave pedals/straps
    on all year long.  Lots of Cessna 172's are still missing their wheel
    pants in July, too.  ;-) kb

    re: .266 freezing SPD problems
    
    Yes, if you ride in snow, and occasionally have to step out of the
    pedals (into snow), the snow on your cleats gets packed into the SPD
    pedals.  The pedals freeze up and you can't click in.
    
    I experienced this a number of times last weekend on a 4.5 hour ride
    thru snow over some rugged terrain.
    
    My advice: dab as little as possible; bring a small screwdriver with
    you and keep it handy to clear ice out of the pedals.  I would not
    recommend clips/straps unless you are totally annoyed with the
    freezups/clearings (depends how often this happens I suppose).
    I also had some luck with this technique: before you attempt to click
    into the SPD pedals, whack your shoe laterally on the pedal; this
    removes snow from both shoes (cleats) and a bit from pedals thereby
    reducing freeze-up.
    
    Don't give up; SPD blows away clips/straps for comfort and convenience.
    
    My $.03,
    Mark

    
    
    	I'm looking for a little advise about pedals. The nashbar catalogue
    has a sale with the LOOK PP96, PP76 and the Time sprint pedals.The look
    pedals I gather are of older vintage, but will this be a problem? Is
    there any major compatibility problems?
    
    	The PP96, being at the high end of my budget, is $99.99, while the
    PP76 $79.99.
    
    	thanks,
    mike

    
    >>has a sale with the LOOK PP96, PP76 and the Time sprint pedals. The
    >>look pedals I gather are of older vintage, but will this be a
    >>problem?
    
    This should not be a problem. Except for the 1990 model PP96 , 
    all LOOK cleats are the same. I really doubt that the PP96 pedals
    on sale are 1990 vintage, but you might want to double check when
    ordering.
    
    doug
     

    
    
  @      This should not be a problem. Except for the 1990 model PP96 , 
  @  all LOOK cleats are the same. I really doubt that the PP96 pedals
  @  on sale are 1990 vintage, but you might want to double check when
  @  ordering.
    
    
    	Oh, I just assumed that the pp96 was superseded by the pp196.
    	Wrong eh?
    
    
    

The PP196 DOES supercede the PP96
Similarly the 156/56 166/66 etc....
Functionally they are the same, except at the low end, the 156 has no adjustment
for the retaining tension whereas the old 56 did have.   As they say a LOOK
plate is a LOOK plate is a LOOK plate........

>    	The PP96, being at the high end of my budget, is $99.99, while the
>    PP76 $79.99.

are you in metro boston? if you are, go to the bike nashbar (aka. bike snakbar)
on wexford st. (off highland ave). they are selling the $79.99 ones for $69.99.

     Here I am again... A few more questions on the Speedplays;
    
     1) Do any local shops have them in stock? I live in Gardner, Ma
    
     2) Now that people have them - know people who have them, how's the
        walking/cleat wear?
    
     3) What are these babies going for?
    
     4) Are there different models, e.g. steel axel vs Ti?
    
     Given the input so far, I'm leaning heavily toward another mortgage
     and grab these for this season.
    
     Chip

  Franks' Spoke and wheel has them in Framingham.  (not very close I know)
  I don't know how many but he does have them.  He also owns the Bicycle Barn
  in Westboro which would be a little closer to you.  You could probably get 
  them there as well.

  There will be a titanium spindle version coming out soon. The wieght on these
  is something rediculus like 150 grams per pair.

  The cleats are basically a metal plate on top of a few plastic plates with
  a hole in the center.  Its fairly tough to wear out steel by walking on it.

  I know 3 people who use them.  Then only even remotely bad thing I've heard
  about them is that you have to keep them well lubed.   I can handle that.

  I'm very seriously considering buying a pair myself when my looks completely
  give out.  (sometime soon)

  Don't quote me on this but I think that they run for around $110 per pair for
  the steel spindles'

  John C.

I think the suggested retail is about $150.00 I remember sell a couple pairs
last year and I remember seeing them in a magazine. You might be able to get
them a little cheaper since they have been out for awhile and the demand is not
high.

Dave

	   I bought mine last year for $110 at Belmont Wheel works on sale.
	Everywhere else I looked they were $150.  Last Summer I spoke to 
	a sales rep. at Bryne's, who makes them, and was told that production
	was way behind demand and they were only sending ~6 sets to each
	store.  May have caught up by now.  I was told that a Ti spindle
	and Mountain bike version were in the works for this year.
	   They aren't the best for walking in, ie. wear/dirt, and it does help
	to keep them lubed.  Very prone to dirty cleat problems.  The greater
	performance, (light weight, easy release, plenty of lateral rotation,
	and close distance to rotational axis), is worth it to me.  
	   Good luck on which ever choice you make.

	Ted

     Thanks for all the inputs... This won't be a surprise to anyone, but I
    think I'll wait for the Ti version to come out.
    
     Thanks again...
    
            Chip

    	Chip,
    
    	You're becoming too predictable! 8-)>
    
    	Scott

    Well, after a few months off for skiing, I'm back in here again!
    
    BTW:  HAPPY BIRTHDAY CHIP from another O.C. - 41 on 11/26 (I saw it in
    the "SACRILEGE" note)!  
    
    I had a problem at the end of last season with my Nike Ultra shoes - I
    pulled a couple cleat mount screws out of one shoe.  I used the Nike
    rotational cleats which I like a lot, but you can't screw the on TOO
    tight or they won't rotate (so I used locktite).   I called Nike and
    they had me return the shoes for examination. 
    
    The other day I got a box, and in it were a brand new pair or 1993 Nike
    Ultra riding shoes...  GREAT!  EXCEPT for one thing!  My old shoes were
    LOOK compatible.  The new ones are SPD!  
    
    I called Nike and we talked for a while.  They said they'd change my
    shoes for the Nike TC, but I rejected that immediately since that is
    what I went to the Ultra from (the fit is completely different).  Or
    they'd see if they could a pair of the old Ultras in my size, but since
    my riding is just road touring and goofing off I thought I'd
    investigate SPD pedals instead...
    
    So, after checking prices in Nashbar and Performance, I sauntered down
    to my local shop where I bought the SPD A525 road pedals for $74!
    
    One question I have though is on the cleats...  I have a little
    rotation in the SPD cleats (enough to keep my knees happy), but I had
    my Shimano 105 pedals set to multi-release mode because even after 2
    years I periodically forgot to click out at stops (although I NEVER
    released when pulling upward while climbing)...  I was going to buy the
    multi-release cleats for the SPDs but the sales person indicated that
    there have been problems with them releasing undesirably...
    
    So, anybody had any experience with these?  Do I buy the multi-release
    or will the regular cleats release when I do something stupid?
    
    Anybody want a pair of Shimano 105 clipless pedals?

I don't have any experience with the multi-release cleats.  The shop owner
where I bought my pedals also recommended against them for roadies, but I 
think it was more paranoia and "why bother with the expense".  He did mention
that in his opinion, they're a must for offroad.  

The standard cleats will not normally release except with heel-out (or possibly
heel-in if you can figure that out!).   I haven't crashed, so I don't know if 
a massive upwards/diagonal might free you.  I do have my release tension set to
middle-high..  You might try setting the tension looser to see if an
"up-and-out" works, but looking at my pedals and cleats, I seem to doubt it...

I've only gotten into trouble once in a panic mode.  I nearly toppled, but 
then decided to jump on the pedals and sped across the side street in front 
of the oncoming car (a very stupid move, since the car would have hurt a whole 
lot more than the pavement!!!)... Fortunately, the car was slowing down
since the driver had paniced too.... :-)


/Ron

>I don't have any experience with the multi-release cleats.  The shop owner
>where I bought my pedals also recommended against them for roadies, but I 
>think it was more paranoia and "why bother with the expense".  He did mention
>that in his opinion, they're a must for offroad.  

    GREAT (*&^%$#@! My shop said that the multi-releas cleats should NEVER
    be used offroad but were possibly OK for on-road, although they didn't
    recommend them because of the possibility of releasing when pulling up
    on the pedals!  
    
    I love it when the bike shops don't even agree!

Does anyone know the full details about the new Dura-Ace road SPD
pedal ?

I have read various things about it, such as:

- the pedal is supposedly not compatible with the existing MTB
cleats/shoes. I did read in a magazine that they had tried it out,
with an old cleat/shoe and it actually worked fine.

- the recommended cleats/shoes are not walkable like the original SPD,
although by ommitting some part of the shoe mounting hardware, they
can be made more walkable.

- the system allows more rotational freedom than before (provided by the
cleat ??).

Can anyone provide any hard facts ? I am wondering if I can buy a pair of
the new Dura-Ace style cleats; use them with my A525 pedals and MTB shoes,
and get some rotation...

> Can anyone provide any hard facts ? I am wondering if I can buy a pair of
> the new Dura-Ace style cleats; use them with my A525 pedals and MTB shoes,
> and get some rotation...
    
    To belatedly answer my own question, someone reported in
    rec.bicycles.something that they had tried this, and it doesn't work.
    There is very little movement with this combination, and the shoes
    interfere with what movement there is.

I mentioned in another note that I was still having trouble getting into my
SPD A525 pedals.  Two things have helped this:

1) I'm riding more, so the old 'practice makes perfect' adage applies.

2) The second thing that helps is starting out in a higher gear.  With my toe
clips, I'd start out in my lowest gear, slip my last foot in and get my cadence
up to the low 90's in the first fear gears, real quick.  Part of my problem
starting out in low gear was that it wasn't providing enough resistence when
I put my foot on the pedal, to allow me to click in.  Now I start out in 3rd
gear on my small chain ring and most of the time, I can click right in.  I
still sometimes find myself chasing the pedal, but I suspect #1 above will
help solve that problem.

Bob

    Yeah, I know that problem.  Start out in my 20+ in gear on a steep hill
    and not be able to get enough momentum to flip the other pedal and
    get my foot on it.  Makes me feel like I'm kick-starting a dirt bike.
    
    I essed a four lane road once to solve that problem. :-)
    
    ed

I find that you can get the pedal to flip rightside up by a bit of a trick
when starting out

1) click into one pedal


2) with this pedal at the top of the stroke (in a small gear), quickly
	crank to the bottom and stop (sort of the natural motion when starting
	out anyway), this brings the unclipped pedal to the top, normally, you'd
	put your foot on the pedal as it's coming up... If you wait until the
	pedal hits the top of the rotation, it will quite often flip forward
	due to the inertia it has when the rotation stops... You can then 
	quickly put your foot down, on the correct side of the pedal... 

	Failing that I just crank a revolution unclipped on the wrong side
	and then flip it upright the usual way.


/ron

    IN THE CASE IN .286, I was on a hill steep enough that the bike came to
    a dead stop when I "crank to the bottom and stop."  Otherwise .287 is
    just about what I do.
    
    ed

With Look pedals, if I have to start on a steep hill I point the bike downhill
(with the brakes on so I go slowly) until both feet are engaged, then do a
U-turn and get back to work. This only works on quiet roads, but it avoids 
me falling off the bike. Wimpy, I know.


Rod

    Question for Ritchey pedal owners.  How do you service them?  One
    of mine is making noise and sticking and my girlfriend's have that
    loud screeching noise that bearings make in protest for being run dry.
    :-) I took hers apart last night and cleaned out the body, sort of, and
    regreased the spindle and everything else I could see inside.  Is
    that all there is to maintenance for these?  Is there a set of needle
    bearings in there or something?  Are they serviceable i.e. replaceable?
    One of her spindles looks like it is toast.  It was discolored and
    starting to pit.  I think the seal was breeched as the body where the
    seal goes was bent presumably from getting whacked on a rock so I am
    sure water got in there.  No dirt though but the spindle was kind of
    dry.  Okay, it was bone dry.  I know the spindles are replaceable which
    is probably in order but for now, I would just like to make the noise
    go away. :-) Thanks for any pointers or hints. 
    
    Brian
     End of note