Conference noted::bicycle

    Are you open to mag-trainers?  For my (very moderate) use of a
    trainer, the mag-trainers seem to work out well.  Good value for
    money; quieter than wind-trainers.  Good aerobic and strength
    workout (or more technical terms).
    
    The Minoura mag-trainers, either under their own name or the
    Performance (or Nashbar?) name, run for $125 to $150 these days,
    plus more with more options.  

    Mine's been reliable enough, portable.  Some people were complaining,
    I think, a few weeks back, that the bearings could go if you really
    pounded the trainer.
    
    -john

    
    There is no comparrison to of windtrainers/Magtrainers to rollers. 
    
    	Rollers help you develop good riding habits such as keeping
    	your upper body relaxed and having a smooth pedaling motion.
	Where the using the trainers can lead to some bad habits.
    
       	Rollers are kinder to your bike since the bike is not clamped
	in and thus applying unnecessary strain on the bike - The 
    	headset in particular.    	

    Rollers are easy to ride so don't be intimidated by them. All you
    need is a little balance - about the same amount you need to ride
    a bike on the street. The first time I tried rollers I rode for
    about 20 min with no problem before having to let the owner back
    on them. I went out the next day and bought a set and I'll never
    get on a windtrainer again.
    
    Paul
    

    
             I agree with reply #2 in part. If your main concern is
    to develop good technique, rollers are nice, and they do put less
    stress on a bikes frame. I feel my technique is good at this point,
    so I'm more concerned with a good solid hour workout where >I can
    stand and do a few sprints, and push a big gear at 110 without being
    concerned about falling off.
            I windtrain on a Vetta Pro Beam which I bought on sale at
    Nashbar about 3 years ago for $95.00. I don't use the bike I race
    on on the trainer however since it does stress the frame somewhat.
            I think rollers and windtrainers both have their place.
    I know a pro triathlete who works out on both each evening. There
    is however no substitute for the road, and the road is where good
    techniques are better developed. I use the windtrainer as strictly
    an alternative sorce for working out.
    
                    My 2 cents worth...............
    
    P.S.   Nashbar off 128 on Highland Ave. has good prices on both.
    I'd go with something used and save a few bucks.....
    
                                           John

I would also suggest trying to find something used for this reason: they are
mind-numbingly boring.  Most normal people just can't stand to ride them and
will soon find excuses to find something else to do to keep in shape over the
winter.

I have one hanging in my garage that I think I used twice this winter.  Perhaps 
my situation is a little different since I live in Northern Cal.  The winters
do get cold and the daylight short but you can get out at least on the weekends
(if not raining).  The past two years I put lights on the mountain bike and
tried to do the commute to work all winter.  After I used it a couple times I
bought a pair of running shoes and started jogging!  Biking it good exercise
and we use it to keep in shape but it should also be fun.  Riding a trainer is
not much fun.  I would suggest that if you can't ride in the winter then find
another sport like running or racketball or basketball.

I've had a Blackburn wind trainer for 4 winters now and under the limited use
it gets it has held up fine.  Rollers are more fun, which may be the best
argument for them, but I would suggest the wind trainer if you can talk
yourself into using it.  The wind trainer does not help your bike handling but
it does build strength.  I liken it to a football player lifting weights in the
off season.

< Note 1022.4 by WEA::BUCHANAN "Bat" >
                          -< And it's almost spring >-

Performance (and a few others, I'm sure) make rollers for which you can buy 
fans for resistance training and a fork mount for times when you don't want to 
worry about form.  I've put a few thousand miles on this setup and am pleased 
with it, with the exception that the fans are vulnerable to being broken if 
you ride off the rollers, which happens when one learns to roll (esp when 
trying to learn to get ALL THE WAY DOWN on Scott DH bars 8^) ).  I ride the
rollers all the time (always with one of the fans) except for my long workouts
(2+ hours).  I would HIGHLY recommend this setup, as well as riding rollers 
primarily.

The key to making these workouts fun is to DO SOMETHING, not just grind it out 
in the same gear for however long you want to ride.  I have a number of 5 
minute sets of different things worked out that keep things interesting.  For 
example, after a suitable warmup (15:00 in 42x21,19,17):

 5 sets of:

	1:00 in 42x19 @100 cadence (active rest)
	1:00    42x17   "          (med hard work)
	1:30	52x15   85 standing (spin up to 100+ before sitting down)
	1:30    42x17  100 seated (simulates hard riding after crest of hill)

	0:30    42x17  100 seated (med hard work)
	1:00    42x19  100 (active rest)
	1:00    42x24   90 right leg only
	1:00    42x24   90 left leg only
	0:30	42x19  100 get back into 2-legged spin
	1:00	42x17  100 (back to med hard work)
	-----	
total  10:00

The above is actually a combination of 2 different 5:00 sets I do separately 
on ocassion).  This example gives 50 min of work and it goes by quickly.  
There's too much to do to get bored.  Last week I did 13 sets of the above 
(with some active rest thrown in between the macro sets (50:00 set as above)) 
for 2 hrs 45 min total.  Its quite a workout!  (of course I am an 
ultra-marathoner and that may reflect on my personality 8^) )

The point is be creative.  You don't ride for hours on the road in 1 gear, at 
1 cadence, in 1 position, so don't do it indoors!

Kevin

    
    I recently bought a used Vetta wind trainer for fifty bucks, from
    somebody who used it twice. It was relitivly easy to find a deal
    like this, since so many people buy them and never use them.
    
    I had to modify it a little to fit my Cannondale frame, but I've
    used it all winter (watching MTV) and it has been great. My only
    complaint is I wore out a rear tire kinda quick. They are a very
    good way to stay in shape over the winter if you fight weight 
    problems, its also good because when summer comes, you dont need
    a month to get in biking shape, your on fire and ready to go!
    
    Albert

    re: .6
    
    >>I wore out a rear tire kinda quick.
    
    This is a common problem of both windttrainers and rollers. I have
    a stock of clinchers that I got at a clearence sale for $2.00 @
    to burn up on the rollers. 
    
    Paul

    From experience, Minoura's MagTurbo s*cks. I was going to a Black-
    burn windtrainer but had a problem with securing my bike securely
    enough without lateral movement.
    
    I finally purchased Cateye's Cyclosimulator and have a couple hundred
    miles on it. I am very happy with it so far. It offer a great deal
    of variability in training, is extremely sturdy and doesn't wear
    my tire anywhere near the Minoura. Sorry, no roller experience,
    but from the inputs I consistently hear I probably will end up with
    them at some point.
    
    Chip

                             -< Rollers >-
    
    If you are looking for a good set of rollers, I would recommend
    Krietler Rollers. They are super smooth and quiet. They are kind
    of expensive ($200-$220) but well worth it. All the parts
    including the belt are guarantee for 5 years. I pick up my set
    at Buchikas in Salem, NH. I also have seen them at Wheelworks in
    Belmont, MA and International Bike in Brighton, MA.
    
    Good luck,
                               
    Huey  

        I agree that the Kreitler system is the best.  They also
        sell a variety of accessories for their rollers,
        including a fan and a stand that attaches to the front
        fork.  
        
        I have a set of inexpensive rollers (about $100) that I
        bought many years ago and they work fine.  I'm sure they
        provide more resistance than the Kreitlers, which is what
        I really want.  At least I get a good workout spinning
        with a 52 x 13 and clincher tyres and no wind loading
        attachment.
        
        -Wil

    
    	I'd like to bring this discussion back to life...
    
    	I'm looking for a trainer.  From what I've seen most all are
    	'mag' now a days.  I have seen a Blackburn and a Schwinn which
    	both seemed to be the same.  The rear wheel mounts on to it.
    	Actually, the trainer attaches are the quick release of your
    	rear wheel.  I have had rollers in the past and agree that they
    	are they best, but I'm looking for something I can ride one handed
    	on.  Any inputs are greatly appreciated.
    
    	Melanie

    
    Aren't there fork-mounts for rollers to allow you to ride
    relatively free-handed?  (Kreitler makes them at least.)
    
    -john

    
    	Yes John there are, but I sold my Kreitlers a couple years ago
    and don't want to fork out that much money again when I will probably
    not be using the 'roller only' part ever again.

I have a Magturbo fork mount windtrainer (sans wind).  I bought it a few years 
ago for $110.  I heard that they go for $200+ now (wrong season to buy this 
stuff).

Eric

P.S.  I can ride it with NO hands and haven't fallen off...yet

    
    Well, Melanie, that's a good point - I thought maybe you had
    the rollers still lying around.  Good luck...
    
    -john

    the ad cited in 2.500 indicated that they had cheap wind trainer
    models available.
    
    ed

    
    
       Something crossed my mind the other day that I thought I would enter
    since this note is alive again. How are the miles spent on rollers
    compared to road miles. Does 10 miles on rollers provide the same
    benefit that 10 miles on the road do? Would it be right to count the
    spring roller miles into the spring "base"?
    

    I think you ought to fudge it a bit.  If a mile on your trainer is
    as hard to achieve as .6 miles on a flat non-windy route then
    a mile on your trainer should be worth about .6 road miles.
    
    I personnaly have never been able to find a flat non-windy
    stretch of road and am still seeking the magical fudge quotient.
    
    ed

    .6 might be a little stingy.
    I would imagine that most people train on courses which end where 
    they began. That'll give you a net altitude change of zero. The
    wind factor is probably a wash too. If it's blowing North, riding
    south will slow you down. When you turn around, you're aided by it.
    Granted, riding flats all day doesn't help you on the hills, but
    it's certainly good for base training.
    I'd say the best way is to compare it with a heart monitor and a
    speedometer. Take an average outdoor course, and record your
    average h/r and mph. Now do the same mileage on the trainer
    getting your h/r at that of your outdoor course. Comparing
    the two average speeds will give you the fudge factor you're
    seeking. Say, for ease of computing, you do your outdoor
    course at 20.0 mph average. On the trainer, you're doing 25 to
    before your h/r reaches the level achieved outdoors. That means
    trainer miles are worth 80 percent of outdoor miles.
    
    John

    
    I remember reading in Consumer Reports some time ago that the trainers
    were easier to get your heart rate up to a recommended point and hold
    it for a certain period of time..  I believe they recommeded a heart
    rate of (220 - age X .70 for twenty minutes)...   Of course, the
    problem noted in the article was that most people don't use their
    trainers because of "boredom"....  
    
    jim o.   
    
    

    
    In fact, yes, I was going to say... for short sessions (� hour) or
    disciplined people, trainers cost more effort than most outside riding.
    
    Exceptions: long, long climbs or going into the wind or keeping up with
    a fast pace line -- in fact, these conditions simulate the constant
    elevated effort typical of using a wind trainer.
    
    (Rollers of course are used for other purposes, too -- cadence &
    balance training, rather than aerobic and power training.)
    
    So it's hard to come up with a hard & fast comparison.  You'd be
    surprised how much coasting and less-than-max pedalling you do on
    the road... and you find out on a resistance trainer!  At least I did.
    
    I like the heart-rate-monitor approach (mentioned earlier) best.
    
    -john
    
    PS: But what price psychological trauma? (.-1 et al.)

Re .20:  The longest I managed to stay on a trainer last winter was 35 minutes
and that felt like an absolute eternity. Ah well, soon I'll be looking to
set new records... 36 minutes at the most.


Rod

    	I've read where Lon Haldeman would ride for 8 hours at a
    	time on a trainer. No comment.
    
    	I've lasted 65 minutes, but that was like a lifetime.
    
    	I have one, I ride on it, but it is the most boring thing
    	in the world.
    
    	As John mentioned, you'd be surprised how often you are
    	just soft-pedaling and taking it easy.
    
    	On a recent 130-mile ride to Maine, I wore a heart monitor.
    	Most of the time, unless we were climbing or into a headwind,
    	my heart rate was around 120. I thought that interesting.
    
    	So, you do have to work (at times) to keep the ticker really
    	ticking fast.
    
    	Scott

    I recorded large amounts of TdF (90 hours to date !) to alleviate the
    boredom of the turbo trainer; does it work - hard to say:
    
    	- I was nervous of rotting the carpet in the rented flat where I
    lived last winter
    	- My flat mate complained about the bellows of pain I let out
    towards the end of the 6th Aerobic session (I do 8x 2mins `on' 1 min
    `off')
    	- I need to connect headpones up so I can listen above the noise of
    the fan.
    
    More seriously, I find that at the pain-level involved from about 20 minutes
    (I have never been near 36 minutes let alone an hour) I cannot
    concentrate on the television.  Music is nice tho'.
    
    	rod

    The prospect of any prolonged us of resistance trainers gets
    me strongly considering
    
     - taking up mountain-biking (for messy conditions)
    
     - finding *lots* of challenging cycling partners.
    
    Pain on the road is somehow more rewarding than in the livingroom. :-)
    
    -j  (and no smart remarks!)

    re:.19 [on a closed circuit with constant wind] Any wind at all is always
    worse than no wind since the tailwind componenet can never cancel out
    the headwind component.  Xmph headwind always hurts more than Xmph
    tailwind helps.  West winds become headwinds whether you're going
    north or south.
    
    As for the magnitude of the fudge factor, different units have
    different resistances.  As I said many moons ago, it's your log
    book do what you will with it, you can only cheat yourself out of
    training.  I sure hope noone is impressed by statements like "I rode
    6000 miles on mi trainer this winter."
    
    ed

    
    	Well, I was spontaneous and purchased a Minoura mag-trainer last
    night.  It's got what I'm looking for.  And it's either those or the
    rollers.  I don't know what my record time will be, but at least I'll
    be able to ride!  Hand surgery < 2 weeks away...
    
    Thanks for the inputs.
    Melanie

    Hand surgery!?  Did you mention this earlier and I missed it?  Is it
    serious?  What I'm thinking is that using the trainer with only the
    other hand could overload it to a point where carpal tunnel or some
    other problem becomes significant.  Be careful.  Don't be a victim
    of overuse syndrome.  Rest the good hand too.
    
    ed

>    re:.19 [on a closed circuit with constant wind] Any wind at all is always
>    worse than no wind since the tailwind componenet can never cancel out
>    the headwind component.  Xmph headwind always hurts more than Xmph
>    tailwind helps.  West winds become headwinds whether you're going
>    north or south.
    I thought it was just my laziness thinking I never was truly
    aided by wind as much as I was hindered. I don't feel so bad
    now! :-)
    
>    As for the magnitude of the fudge factor, different units have
>    different resistances.
    True. I wasn't hoping to come up with a magical number that would
    work for every body and every trainer. It's how hard you work for
    how long, not distance that counts.
    
    John

    	While riding to Maine, Bill's chain broke. Actually, one
    	of the pins worked its way outa the link. We stopped at
    	a shop in Dover, NH, for a new chain and a chance to meet
    	his dog, Champagne.
    
    	He said he usually rode about 6000 miles on the road and
    	3000 miles on a wind trainer.
    
    	Fella did seem to have his wits about him, so I guess
    	long miles on a trainer are not mind threatening.
    
    	Scott

    
    
    	 Of course,  If I lived in Scotland with the weather conditions
    that have been reported in this file....  I would "only" use a trainer...
    
    big :-) 
    
    jim o.
    

    
    RE: .28  
    
    	Ed,
    		Yeah it was related to a bike accident.  It's described
    	in 900.38, but it didn't end there.  I've had a reconstructive
    	surgery, and one to remove fracture fragments, and now they have
    	found another fracture and will put a screw in along with some
    	other cleanup things.
    		Riding one-handed I'm not too concerned about I've got
    	stock in 'spenco' or at least I should have.  At least there aren't
    	bumps in my carpeting and I don't have to worry about stopping :)
    
    	Melanie
    
    

    >	 Of course,  If I lived in Scotland with the weather conditions
    >that have been reported in this file....  I would "only" use a trainer...
    
    Funnily enough we have gale to severe-gale winds for tonight - anybody
    fancy some out-and back training ??
    
    Anyone for some out and back training ?
    
    /rod

    
    Well, Melanie, that explains the hand-reference in your original
    request.  (And I thought you just wanted a free hand for drinking
    Gatorade or reading a book.)  This is really a shame, that you are
    still dealing with your crash from last year.  Good luck with the
    operation.
    
    RE: Ed's concern about putting too much strain on the other hand:
    consider aero-bar clip-ons.  Then you could rest both arms (not hands)
    on the armrests.
    
    At this juncture, dare I mention that the UMCA has a Roller Game
    division in its National Points Challenge.  Ed, do you recall if that's
    just for rollers, or resistance trainers, too?  If the latter, then
    Melanie might possibly be interested.

    I think the "Roller Game" was just a listing of how many hours can you
    log with your heart between certain ranges of theoretical maximum.
    
    Btw, I have discovered that my heart would be goofing off if I let
    it idle along at 80% of theoretical max.  I'd really like to see more
    scientific data on the subject.
    
    ed

    
    	Well I am hoping to do some racing next year, but I have to get
    through the next couple weeks first.  My HMO is giving a hard time now.
    I went 'out-of-plan' for this surgery, but they haven't approved it
    yet.  I'm a nervous wreck.
    
    /mjf

    
    	I used to do a lot of roller training. I used to do 1� to 2 hours
    regular. However, on your own it was a soul-destroying job so we (my
    bike club) used to hire a room at the local sports institute and it in
    a group of 8-10 riders. There wasn't much conversation, but there
    seemed to be something in suffering together... We used a hi-fi to
    relieve the boring warm up, but it was switched off for the hard work.
    	As far as balance is concerned, after practice, you don't notice
    the diference. I used to be able to take my jersey off while riding.
    
    Graham.

    I went to a talk on virtual reality last night.  It appears that one of
    the problems is that you have to cannot move too much.  So I chirped up
    with the obvious idea for an application (Mag trainer, fan (for wind),
    video disk (for the scenery) and so forth).  Reply `its been done
    already'.  Apparantly one of the best VR systems is Henry Fuch's
    Pixel-planes 5 system at the University of North Carolina and they have
    a bicycle system..  John, do I have a deal for you....
    
    Given that you don't need the glove (about �8k) and that the bike bit
    exists already I reckon a current system would be a snip at about �50k,
    say $80k...
    
                       	rod

    
    	Anyone tried roller racing? We did a small competition in the local
    shopping centre ('mall' to our friends over there) to try and gain some
    adverising for the club. Good fun, although, having finished, me
    running out to be sick in the bushes outside, probably wasn't a good
    idea...
    
    Graham.
     

    Better than not running outside to be sick.
    
    Shows you have manners.  :-)
    
    ed