Conference terri::cars_uk

    Should've pulled in as he was going by!!! ;-}
    
    
    Ian.

	The question is though, why was he *able* to undertake
	you and a number of other drivers???

	JJ.

And can I report all those CAREFUL drivers meandering along in the center lane
when there is no obsticle in the inside lane for "driving without due care
and attention"? Driving on the M4 I increasingly feel that 3 lane motorways
are a waste of space.

Terry

re .0 and .2

The oibvious question has already been eloquently posed by Mr Quick... if there
was room for him to pass on the inside, why did traffic not pull over to the
left?

I use the same stretch of road every day, so will attempt to answer the question
myself.

I always try to adopt "good" lane discipline.  However, on this stretch of road
other drivers make it impossible.  Suppose I am in the middle lane, and pass a
lorry, then pull back into the (invariably empty) left lane.  Everyone else will
stay in the middle lane, and close up the gap.  When I get to the next lorry,
and try and pull out, I can't.  There is no room.  I indicate, am forced to slow
down, and have to wait until someone notices and leaves a big enough gap.

And before anyone says I should think further ahead, I do, and pull out earlier
than necessary if I see a gap.  Then I get some GTi/Sri/turbo pillock sitting
on my back bumper as though he owns that lane and my 998cc metro shouldn't even
be on the motorway, even though I'm going faster than 90% of the other traffic.

So what tends to happen is I am forced by other road users to sit in the middle
lane (or occasionally outside lane) in order to "keep my place", particularly
if the distance to the next lorry in the inside lane isn't too great.

Now, occasionally I try and be a bit cleverer.  If the inside lane is empty a
long way ahead, with the other two lanes invariably full, I'll pull into the
inside lane and *gently* pull alongside the car to my right, stay there a while,
then gently ease past him.  I don't find it very clever when as .1 suggests
they try and force me off the road, when they're the ones in the wrong.

Now I'm not a perfect driver by any means, but the amount of stupidity,
carelessness, obliviousness and discourtesy I see on this road every day makes
me sympathise totally with .0.  On many occasions I've been temtped to take
other cars' numbers and report them.  But I don't: to answer the questions in
.0, I don't think the police will do much about it.  Lane discipine/dangerous
driving is such a vague area, I doubt whether Joe Public's testimony would
stand up in court.  It would need a copper to pull the driver over for
something more specific.

I suppose if you comlained about the same car on the same stretch of road every
day at the same time, they might put a patrol car there one day to watch...
Just make sure you're being a good boy that day!

Scott

Not quite the same situation, but...

One of my younger friends STUPIDLY went down a 100 yard 1 way road the wrong
way to get to a road at the other end. He wasn't driving like a maniac if fact
it was sort of like kerb-crawling, but admittedly still in the wrong.

He was reported, by someone who managed to get a full description of the car,
the plate and him.

He recieved a summons in the post about 3 weeks later, but then after another
week he recieved another letter stating that the court appearance was no longer
necessary.

Why? I assume the police sat down and thought about it. With only 1 witness 
could they really prosicute?

He was very very lucky. I guess what i'm trying to say is that the police may
indeed act, but can they see it through. Any opinions?


				Lewis

    re.-1
    
    It's just the same here, though the amount of traffic is 10% of
    yours...
    
    - Jyri from Finland -

    it should've been re.-2
    
    
    Lewis was faster than me....
    
    
    - Jyri -

	Mr Mitchell, you've seen sense at last!

	JJ.

I don't know about in the UK but in the US, a law enforcement official must
personally witness the alleged infraction.  Police are considered "trained
observers" but ordinary citizens are not.  You can report someone and the local
police may choose to talk to the alleged violator, but they cannot issue a
citation based on a citizen complaint. If they could, then everyone would be 
reporting people they don't like for alleged traffic violations (ie: send your
enemies a Christmas present).

Jim 

	I think in the UK one motorist could legally bring a private
	prosecution against another for infringement of traffic laws,
	although the likelihood of him winning would be remote.

	I base the above assumption on an incident where a driver who
	was overtaking up a hill round a blind bend drove into me head-on,
	and the police later asked me if I'd prosecute if they didn't, In
	the event I said "no", they prosecuted, and the driver was done for
	dangerous driving.

	JJ.

    
    My brother and a friend reported someone for what they considered to be
    dangerous driveing. The Police did prosecute, and my brother and friend
    were called as witnesses. The prosecution was successful. (But... bear
    in mind that the person who is 'done' may not appreciate being
    'shopped'..........)

    It DOES happen!
    
    Recently someone in Digital (not from this office) was reported for
    Dangerous Driving and was prosecuted, fined and pointed for it.
    
    But it depends very much on the severity of the offence and how many
    witnesses there are.
    
    Can .0 describe exactly WHY the other driver was dangerous?
    
    mb

    � Can .0 describe exactly WHY the other driver was dangerous?

    Well he was obviously dangerous because he was suffering from the
    mistaken idea that you're supposed to drive on the *left* hand side
    of the motorway, rather than the *right*. He must clearly be stopped,
    and made to stick to hogging the outside lane like everyone else. Leave
    the inside lanes for us horseriders!

    JJ.

    In my view, the person hogging the middle lane is being just as 
    "dangerous" as the person overtaking from the left. I also heard that
    you can be prosecuted for careless driving if you hogg the middle lane,
    when the left hand lane is empty. (not showing care and attention for other
    road users).
    I have every symphathy for the Granada driver.
    

re .15

In this instance, the "undertaking" driver probably wasn't doing "wrong" (I use
inverted commas as technically he was breaking the law), but
consider this interesting true story.

A while back now, I was driving along the A329(M).  For those who don't know,
this is a two-lane motorway.

I was in the inside lane, a Volvo (OK, don't groan yet...) was behind me, going
at the same speed as me.  We approached a slower car ahead.  Right hand lane
empty, so as we got close (about 70 yards, I suppose) I pulled out to overtake.

Volvo driver suddenly speeds past me in the inside lane, until he's on the
back bumper of the slower car.  He's now in front of me, and has to brake hard
to avoid hitting the slower car.  I'm still travelling at the same speed, so
quickly catch up with the volvo.

Just as I'm about to start passing him, (ie front of my car level with back of
his) he suddenly, with no warning or indicator, pulls out in front of me.  I'd
been expecting it, so managed to avoid any bent metal.  It was at this point I
noticed him on the car phone, not hands-free variety...

I suppose it's to stop pillocks like this that overtaking on the left is
generally considered a no-no.

Scott

    
    Re .0
    
    I was charged with 'driving without due care and attention' about four
    years ago - apparently because I'd pulled out in front of a learner,
    who panicked wildly and the driving instructor reported me. 
    
    The police called round to charge me and basically tried to persuade
    me to admit my guilt there and then - in front of my wife and then
    young daughter. I managed to hold out - mainly because I had no
    recollection of the supposed offence and the matter was eventually
    dropped, six months after the supposed offence.
    
    I suggest you leave these matters to the police and let them catch
    people in the act, rather than try and bully a confession out of them,
    just because you were in a mood to try to score points off other
    drivers.
    
    
    Paul                

    Re: .5
    
    The reason for this is probably pretty much as you guessed, however one
    point; the police don't prosecute anyone anymore, they pass on a file
    to the CPS (Crown Prosecution Service) who make the decision. Saves the
    police having to be experts in weighing up the finer points of the law.
    
    I got this info from watching "The Bill" on ITV one night.  :-)
    
    .Stevie.

� Saves the
� police having to be experts in weighing up the finer points of the law.

After all, we wouldn't want our police knowing too much about the law, would we?

JJ.

    
    
    re: lane 1 undertaking...
    
       according to the highway code/road traffic act amendment 1990 is it
    LEGAL on a multilane carriageway to pass a vehicle that is on your right
     if the vehicle is in aqueue that is moving slower than is permitted for
     that particular stretch of road. It is ILLEGAL to manouver from a slow
    moving queue to a faster moving left hand lane..
    
    Problem: what is a queue ??
    definition: line or sequence of persons or vehicles etc. awaiting their
                turn.
    My understanding: if more than 1 vehicle (2+) are in lane 2 moving
                      slower than my vehicle I can LEGALLY pass 1 or both
                      vehicles via lane 1 (risky I know), and if either
                      vehicle attempts to utilise lane 1 during my manouver
                      they shall be held resposible for the outcome..
    
     I drive safely and hold an I.A.M. certificate, but I also use the law
    to it's full meaning. I don't exceed the speed limit, I just maintain
    ultimate progress :-)..
    
    
    Al.
     

re .21

Ah yes, the old "what's a queue" debate...

The police take a different view of a queue to you, I"m afraid...  If there are
cars in the middle lane doing 60, and you try and pass them in the inside lane
at 70 claiming they're in a queue, the police will shake their heads and nick
you.

A "queue" on a motorway would be a stream of traffic moving at (roughly)
20 (or less) mph.  You might get away with it at 30, depends on the
circumstances and what mood the police were in...

... all this is from a police driving instructor.

Scott

    Would .0 please come back and define what the Granada did that was
    dangerous?  There's not enough information in the base note.
    
    Jeff.

    The author of .0 is probably a life-time member of CLOC.
    
    Laurie.

re.22:

Who cares what the police think, what do the courts think a queue is?

/Dave.

    The point of what the Granada was doing is just an example is not
    really the point here.
    
    The point is that dangerous psyco-Darrens should be removed from the
    roads as they are a danger to lives.
    
    They are the people who will consume 14 pints of Lager and a vindaloo
    and then barge people of the road. As far as I'm concerned reporting
    someone is probably a good idea if only to give them a hard time from
    the Policeremember the Police don't have to give them your name. If the
    case goes to court then they are as good as in the bag anyway.
    
    The big problem is not to retaliate against one of these nurds and
    attempt to take them of the road (or whatever). I know that in the 
    A329(M) example with the Volvo I'd have set of after the guy probably.
    
    The next step is that I make a stupid manoevere and get myself in court
    instead.
    
    People who drive like this should get not points but bans.
    
    In other words report them (if you can).

	Re .26

	I've noticed several childishly inflammatory notes entered in
	various conferences recently from anonymous accounts. Personally,
	I consider someone who can't enter a wind-up note under his/her
	own name to be a coward. Can't moderators have a policy of
	deleting anonymous notes?

	JJ.

    Ok, not entirely relevant I know, but what *is* a "psyco-Darren"?

    JJ.

    Thank you .29 for explaining what happened.  Now we can agree with you,
    and not make incorrect assumptions.
    
    Jeff.

re .29

CLOC = Centre Lane Owners Club

>> Great reply, why can't some of the other noters grow up any have this
>> attitude?
 
and

>> I agree, this is a serious discussion, noters who cannot respond
>> accordinly should not bother entering their facile, pathetic,
>> responses.

Huh?  On the one hadnd you say .26 is a great reply, then you agree with .27 and
say it's a pathetic response

I sympathise with the situation described in .29.  If you're drving down the
motorway in the (empty) inside lane, then come across a "queue" stuck behind
a slow vehicle overtkaing an even slower one, what should you do?

a) Carry on in the inside lane and then force your way into the next lane at
the last second, � la Granade driver?

b) Sit in inside lane just behind last car in right lane, but then someone else
pulls up behind that car in the right lane, leaving you no room to pull out
when the time comes.

c) "Take your place" in the queue in the middle lane, technically "wrong" as
there is room in the inside lane.

In this situation, none of the options are very satisfactory...

Scott

>> What is a "psycho-Darren"?

Someone who is called Kevin and drives a 3 litre Capri :-)

Scott

PS Personally I like capris, it's a shame they've got a poor image

.29�    Yeap, agreed, except that undertaking at whatever speed is still
.29�    illegal.
    
    I didn't know that (although it is contrary to the Highway Code). What
    is the actual offence, please?
    
.29�    Beacuse he forced his way back into the fast lane without signalling
    
    Ah! The fast lane! Now I understand the problem!
    
    K.

>>
    During a busy Saturday afternoon in the middle of Reading you don't see
    people pushing into queues, elbowing others out of the way, gesturing
    with two fingers at each other, invading each other peoples personal
    space, being dangerous to themselves and others, and generally being
    rude to each other.
>>
    I disagree with this - maybe it's not as blatant as you say, but you do
    get pushed/bumped into etc, and certain shop assistants are often
    off-hand and rude........
>>
    My discussion centres around the argument that if dangerous drivers
    were not sure that they could get away with the stunts then they wwould
    be less likely to do it.
>>
    I thank many people drive badly because of ignorance and insensitivity,
    and even if they knew they may be reported by members of the public it
    wouldn't make any difference to the way they behave. People deliberatey
    'bad' are not going to be put off by the thought of being reported.
    
    Anyway, EVERYBODY makes mistakes when driving - and I'm sure that _if_
    Mr Plod was to come round to see most people, they would be able to
    justify to themselves that it was a 'one-off' incident - and that they
    are normally excellent drivers, polite, considerate, forward
    thinking...... ,     
        
    

	What a *good* idea, reproduce the whole of the note you're
	replying to, makes things *really* readable.

	JJ.

�           <<< Note 1487.42 by FORTY2::QUICK "Bliss is ignorance" >>>
�
�
�	What a *good* idea, reproduce the whole of the note you're
�	replying to, makes things *really* readable.
�
�	JJ.

    
    	I absolutely agree with you there, its quite difficult to read isn't
    it. When will people learn how to note correctly.
    
    Garry

    
    
    
    Ford Granada 2.4 Qjumper (1990) G regd.
    
    19,000 miles (mostly motorway)
    
    Regularly serviced
    
    1 Careful owner from new (and 1 real bastard)
    
    Any vehicle undertaken in part exchange
    
    Reason for sale : imminent undesirable interest
        
    
    
�    I agree, this is a serious discussion, noters who cannot respond
�    accordinly should not bother entering their facile, pathetic,
�    responses.

       

    I was going to enter a "serious" response here but I don't think I'll
    bother. I'll go and kick the dog instead. Excuse me..
    
    Colin

Should I report people who kick their dogs to the police?

/Dave.

    should I report people who report people who kick their dogs to the
    RSPCA to the police..??