Conference terri::cars_uk

Best alarm up to �50:  Moss MS705  (�39.95)
Best alarm up to �100: Moss MS715  (�69.95)

Above that you get all sorts of whizzy bits which are probably more expensive
than they are worth...

Scott

    Current WhatCar? magazine has an article. Let me know if you want
    to look at mine.
    
    Steve 7830 3401

An alarm, no matter how expensive and with what features, will not stop your
car being nicked.  Having just bought an alarm and read all the installation
info, makes me realise that a "professional" thief could break into an alarmed
car and silence the alarm in about 15 seconds.  It would then take maybe a
couple of minutes to sort out any "ignition immobilisation", hot wire the car
and drive away.

They are a deterrent only (albeit a useful one).  If your car is parked where
people will notice the alarm (eg not the DEC park car park; how many people
would hear an alarm go off there?), a thief will prefer the unalarmed car next
to it.  Otherwise it's useless.

I think mechanical means of securing a car (large steel steering locks, gear
lever and handbrake clamps, etc), are the best way to stop your car being driven
away.

Number plates etched on the windows are also good, as the thief then has the
cost of replacing the glass to consider.

On the other hand, if your car is more likely to be "borrowed" by joy-riders
than professional thieves, (as with the Moss and other cars with little
intrinsic value in the market place) an alarm would be a very effective
deterrent.  It also stops those people who try to look a little closer than
they really should...

Scott

    I have a Moss MS715. Its very reliable. But as with .4 its only a
    deterent from the causual thief. My only problem is that I have had to
    order two new remote control units. Cases have split on both of my
    orginals - The cost being �26 !!!!!! in total From the manufacture 
    direct. 
    
    Halfords - Brain dead (( YES )) I would see some one in Les Smith. 
    At least they look have human.. (( A to Z )) are reasonable for
    comments. Cheap also..
    
    Stu.

    can I get stickers that say the car is alarmed, even when it isn't ?
    Where ?
    
    My wife's car has had amateurs try to force the lock 3 times this year,
    and her manager *still* won't pay for an alarm  !
    
    Peter

    
    In my old Elf, if I was parking anywhere 'suspect' - I used to take
    the rotor arm out, and take it with me! The door lock and ignition were
    so worn, any key would have done!

    Yes, you can get alarm stickers, dummy keyswitches, et al. Not much
    point, IMHO, cos the tea leaves know where to get them too, and
    what they look like. You can even get little flashing red lamps
    to kid the light fingered fraternity that your non existent alarm
    is armed!
    
    Try any motor accessory shop (Halfords, Les Smith) or even B&Q -
    I think I saw them in there.
    
    Steve

    While an alarm does not deter the professional thief from driving
    your car away, a great deal of auto theft is by amateurs, who are
    only after the contents (stereo, of whatever).
    Krooklocks and the like a ren't going to stop them
    
    If I'm going to be burgled, I'd much rather be 'done' by
    professionals.  They tend to be tidier, and do less damage.
                        
                                            
    
    Ian
    

Argos has a range of "fake" security gadgets.

saw a prog. tv that had an alarm that you could phone up (once you realise that 
the cars been nicked, alarm would warn the 
driver (aka thief) that it knows the car's being nicked & that he should stop
the car & run for it before the alarm shuts down the engine & imobilises the car


...art

    When I was at college one of my friends used to work vacations at a
    garage,   and there was a mechanic who was an ex-car thief 'going
    straight'      but he still liked to have fun...   he would go around
    nicking peoples' krooklocks!!!    he would then lock the car again and
    leave all else untouched.
    
    Huw.

A friend of mine came up with a novel method of car protection. The police were
also very interested but pointed out the legal implications. The specs follow.


Bulk head	  
    |	 /    /   /
    |	/    /   /
    +->	|   / ^ / <--- Steering column
	|  / / /
	| / / /
	|/ / /
	| / /
  	| ^/
	  |
	  |
	  +--  Very sharp pointed stake (wooden)

Underneith the stack was a  gunpowder charge. When the alarm was armed, if
the vehicle was stolen thecharge would go off. This waould cause the stake to 
shoot up the steering column thereby pinning the thief to the seat.

The first time he tried it (in an old scrap car) the stake shoot through the
roof).

Simon

I thought vampires stole glamourous virgins, not cars?

How about a furry crucifix hanging from the rear view mirror?

Or a "Pope Costume" Garfield in the back window?

Any other ideas for making your car vampire proof...?

Scott

RE: .12>
       A few years ago the MG Car Club put out a warning about the legal
       implications of car anti-theft devices.

       One of the members had fitted a hidden switch to the electric fuel
       pump of his MGB. A budding car thief had got in one night, and
       started the car. There was enough fuel in the carbs to get him to
       the nearest main road, but the engine died as he was pulling out
       into the path of an oncoming lorry.

       Not only did the unfortunate owner get his his car wrecked, but he
       was prosecuted and held to be responsible for the accident.

       Ian.

re.-1

I can't imagine the legal arguments that could be used to blame a person, 
who had fitted a fuel cutoff switch, for an accident resulting from a thief 
not knowing how to operate the car! Fuel cutoff switchs are not unknown 
safety devices to prevent fires after an accident.

Also, how come the carbs had enough fuel for anything other than start for a 
few seconds?

Dave.

    I have a Cobra alarm device and will intsall this on the MG B GT
    when it is roadworthy again and this device does not shut the 
    fuel, but interrupts the low tension part of the ignition coil.
    The alarm switch has double functionality:
    1 - Put on the alarm system (including doppler efect interiorsensor)
    2 - Interrupt the low tension part of the ignition.
    
    Works perfectly!
    
    Hans

	I paid the car radio place down near Zenith to fit a Scorpion
	alarm system to my car a couple of years ago (�250)...

	It was a remote control on the central locking type, and I foolishly
	assumed that meant I could leave the key in the car and just carry
	the control unit.

	It locked me out of the car while it was on double yellow lines; the
	spare keys were in my mother's handbag in Devon, the main key was of
	course in the ignition. A traffic warden broke into the car for me
	with a piece of plastic packing case strip, it took about 30 seconds.
	Not one passer-by even looked up, even though the alarm had been set
	off when the door was opened.

	I then stupidly decided to test the remote control unit while I was
	inside the car, in Sainsbury's car park. It locked the doors, then
	refused to unlock them. When I manually unlocked them, the alarm of
	course went off, I had to open the bonnet and disable it. Bearing in
	mind that this was a crowded car park, the car was a newish Range
	Rover, and I was dressed in my Saturday best jeans & t-shirt and was
	under the bonnet frantically trying to stop a 120-db alarm screaming
	it's head off, it's suprising no-one said anything, but no-one did.

	If you ask me, they're a complete waste of money.

	Jonathan.

    
    I agree with .17 - how often does anyone take any notice of car alarms,
    maybe when only a few cars had them, but now, people are so used to
    hearing them, and assuming that it's been set off accidently, that
    no-one does anything. 
    
    Have you ever challenged anyone doing anything 'suspicious'?
    
    We once did, and after a moments surprise, the person trying to break
    into a car explained that he'd locked his keys in, and showed us some
    ID, he then thanked us for showing concern. Don't know what would have
    happened if he was a car thief - probably bluffed it out, and we'd
    still have gone away feeling we'd done our good deed for the day.....

    Talking about car alarms, has anyone seen vtx fleetnews "burglar
    alarms" where it mentions "Ford motor co. are now fitting
    Burglar alarms as standard on all their vehicles."
    
    Does this really mean what it says? I would of thought there would be a
    lot of press about it as they would be the first manufacturer to do
    this ! 
    
    Maybe it just means the leasing companies are getting alarms fitted to
    fords that are supplied to DEC.
    
    Roy

    Did you hear the one about the police in Liverpool?
    
    They had this fantastic way of catching car thieves....
    
    They had a secure car with hardened glass windows etc. It was generally
    a decent car, they then parked it where it was bound to be nicked. When
    Mr Thief picks the lock, and get's in,then all doors lock and an alarm
    is set off in the police station. Mr Plod rolls up and one thief is
    sat in his locked car, trapped.
    
    I heard from some friends that it was very successful but had to be
    abandoned because it was an infringement of human rights, and humans
    should not be trapped like rats!!
    
    I thought it was a great ides!
    
    Greg

    
    RE -1 
    
    I read about this in Auto Express. As far as I can remember the Police
    are allowed to leave the car locked. The hoorah was over leaving
    it unlocked, as this could be classed as enticement which is a no-no.
    
    Chris

       Re .19> All Ford's now have burglar alarms.

       I had a Sierra Saphire as a hire car a few weeks ago, and that had
       a crude alarm fitted. Though were no stickers on the car
       indicating the fact, and there was nothing in the docs to tell you
       how it worked. It was there, all right!

       Whilst parked in a busy high street, the damned thing went off
       wehn I opened the door to get in. I assumed that it would stop
       when I put the key in the ignition, but it didn't. The only way I
       could silence it was to get out, lock the car and unlock it again.

       BTW, the sound it made was a regular 'hoot' of the horn, not the
       usualy electronic wail of most alarms I've heard. The horn would
       also beep once whenever you locked the door - a bit inconvenient
       in the early hours of the morning.

       Ian.

    .14 & .15,
    
    RE: Fuel Cut-Off Switches and Car Conking Out On Thief...
    
    That reminds me, I must fill up the car tonight so that it has enough
    fuel for a clean 'Get Away'. One would'nt want the poor bugger to conk
    out in front of a lorry. Would one ?  ;-} 
        

    Does anyone know....
    
    ... I remember reading an article about the car that tells you it's
    been nicked.
    
    Apparently it was a system on offer to prestige-car owners when
    they had their cell-phone installed. In effect the car had no outward
    signs that it was protected, no flashing lights or horns, just a
    phone call to a pager that the owner carried - "Hello, i've just
    been nicked" sort of thing. The idea was that the owner then contacts
    police, police look for car, arrest anyone found driving it.
    
    Anyone else see this, or know if it got off the ground. Or was it
    all a dream ?
    
    AMS
    

There are several systems like the one you describe.  My fave is the one where
when the car is nicked, it sends out a continuous radio signal.

A number of road-side sensors detect this, and triangulate to get the position
of the car, which is relayed to a control centre.  Someone at the centre then
'phones the police, and tells them the car has been nicked, where it is and
where it is going!

There's also the one where after a car is nicked, a voice synthesiser in the
alarm tells the thief to stop and park the car as all fuel, electric, etc
systems will be disabled in one minute...

Why it doesn't disable them before the thief starts it is beyond me...

Scott

Where I park my car outside the flat all four *new* cars were broken into and 
their radios removed, mine however had an alarm an wasn't touched - saved me
what it cost already 8*).

Nigel.

	I have an alarm supplied by Nissan, but of indeterminate manufacture.

	It's a remote control type, with a howling banshee under the bonnet and
	a cut off to the fuel pump if it's not disabled. The fuel cutoff is
	particularly effective as the engine won't even start.

	As for people taking notice of car alarms, well they did when I set mine
	by off by mistake on Deck 5 of the Hook - Harwich ferry. The guy in the
	next car spilled about half a can of coke he was drinking down his
	trousers when the it went off !

	Gordon

	I always wanted to rig my car upto the mains and then watch somebody
	try to nick it!

	Unfortunately I was informed by a friend in the Police Force that it
	was slightly illegal - Oh well one call always dream!

	Paul.

    I prefer the system I saw on TV where you divert the car battery
    into the drivers seat for a few seconds if the alarm isn't disarmed.
    The results on TV were *most* effective.
    As for the `legality' - I can't see a crimm shopping himself to
    report he got a scorched @#$ trying to nick a motor.
    
    M

>    The results on TV were *most* effective.

	Did they actually get a volunteer for this ?!!

	Gordon

    
>     'amps in pants' from car battery.     
                     
       Thought most car batteries were in the 12V - 14V range. Maybe
       Ohm's Law doesn't apply to car interiors ?!  
       
       N.                              

    if you do purchase an alarm and need it installed d.a.p. mobile 
    installations does exelent work and gives a life time garente the #
    is (508)852-0921
       powell
    

Lifetime guarantee against what?   That your car will never be stolen? ;-)

    
    The problem with professionally fitted car alarms is that professional
    car thiefs know exactly where professional alarm fitters fit them and
    subsequently can do an extremely professional job of removing them.I
    know this to my cost!I`ll be alarming my new car myself.
                                                          Dougie

My bosses new car is a BMW convertible (I tried to get
him to trade up for the extra comfort and quality of a
Sinclair C5).. and his car has a feature I did not know
about until tonight 


To let you know that the cars alarm is armed when the
car is parked it has a BRIGHT red light at the rear of
the car and on the drivers door  (about the size of a
new 5p piece).. its quite a bright light.. clearly
visible across the car park on a dark night 

Now its certainly a warning to car thieves .. but these
cars any 'feature' that makes a car stand out when
parked surly leaves it open to vandalism "Look its a
posh car.. lets do it over" 


Does this BMW feature give you a car that is more theft
proof.. but more liable to vandalism ? 

    I think you will find that many car alarms use some form of indicating
    lamp whilst they are armed.  In my car (and many others) that lamp is
    inside, where it is not obviously noticed.
    
    I have noticed that many cars in London appear to have these lamps
    mounted externally, where they are more visible.
    
    In my mind, this would have the important added feature that it
    may stop someone from breaking a window to attempt to steal your
    stereo, as they will notice that it is alarmed and hopefully leave alone.
    
    Trouble is, it could have the opposite effect in two ways
    
    The thief may recognise the alram type and know how to disarm it,
    or they may spot that you have not armed the alarm at some time,
    so they may take that opportunity to 'have a go'.
    
    
    J.R.

    	
    I'm going to attempt to install a MOSS MS705 this weekend.Can anyone
    with past experience give me some advice???????
    
    
    
    cheers
    ANDY.A.
    

    Andy,
    
    Buy a blade fuse holder, 3 fuses, and 25 cable ties.  You might want a 
    little pin-switch to protect your tailgate (unless it already turns on the
    interior light).  If you do buy it, you'll need some brown single-core
    cable to run from the back of the switch to the alarm.  Very thin stuff
    will be fine, there's no real current drawn through it, it's just a
    switched ground.
    
    Fitting's dead simple only about 5 wires, but do thoroughly read the 
    small booklet first.  It'll only take 15 minutes.
    
    Disconnet the negative terminal from the battery.
    
    Ensure the mounting bracket is really secured solidly to the bodywork
    in your engine bay.  This will transmit shock better from say a window
    or door if it is impacted.  Otherwise the shock sensor is very
    insensitive.  Careful of what's behind where you put any holes.
    
    Put the alarm in a crowded area of the Engine bay, in a position where
    it can't be reached or see from below the car.  Route the wires
    straight up away from reach, use cable ties to keep them together and
    neat.  Remember all they have to do is cut these and you've wasted all
    this time and money.
    
    Pass the 3 or so wires to the interior through existing rubber gromets
    if possible.  If you need to drill a new hole, keep it small.  Don't
    forget to pass the wires through the gromet before you push them in the
    hole! (I did once).  Paint the drilled bulkhead metal with some touch-up 
    paint to stop it rusting.
    
    Throw away the free switch that is provided for you to switch out the
    alarm.  Go to a scrapyard or Dealers and buy a fog light switch for
    your car and use that in a currently blank switch position.
    
    Take your alarm supply from somewhere around the fusebox, the further
    from the battery the better.  This will mean the voltage sensing is
    tripped more reliably.  If you take power from the battery nothing
    short of starting the car will triger it!
    
    E.g. My central locking has a supply straight from the battery, I can
    unlock the doors without trigering the alarm, but the interior light
    does triger it.  
    
    Find a similar blade-type fuse holder and buy three of the correct
    rated fuses.  Fix this fuse holder near where you take the suply 
    from the fusebox.  This keeps things looking neat.  Don't go for 
    an in-line fuse holder, it's tacky.
    
    It's best to gently pull back insulation on the selected supply wire.  This 
    should be one which is permanently live regardless of 
    ignition/accessory/light switches.  
    You can probably do this without cutting the wire you're joining to.  (you 
    did disconnect the battery, didn't you!)  Twist both, tin and solder 
    together, wrap a little insulation tape round forming a 'y' shape.  Then 
    put a nylon cable tie round the two wires' insulation/tape to take any 
    strain.  If you're already adept at soldering such joints, sorry for 
    patronising you.  
    
    You can't beat a good soldered connection, avoid scotchlocks unless
    you'd have to spend two hours on a particular joint without one.  
    
    Again if you need to connect an (orange?) wire to your radiator fan,
    don't be tempted to use a scotchlock 'cause it's dirty and out of
    reach.  It's worth soldering and insulating as above.
    
    Remember to set the sensitivity for the shock sensor (mine's at max,
    but I guess that's because its on a very solid bit of inner wing panel).
    
    I don't think you have ultrasonics, so remember your protection is
    really around the interior light  (someone picking the lock doesn't set 
    off the scock sensor).  If your sun-roof/ window is left open, try to
    find a way so that the light cannot be turned off or the bulb removed
    before the thief opens the door.  Running a line to a new, small (7
    watt, 12v) bulb in the boot is a nice way around this problem if you
    don't already have one.
    
    Bon chanc�!
    Robert.

Robert,

	my car comes with an alarm as standard, but i found your reply a
	fascinating read, thanks for the info!

	Cheers,

	mb

    	
    Robert,
    
    	You've been a great help,thanks very much indeed.
    
    
    
    	Thanks.
    	Andy.....
    

    
    	Robert,
    		I've just of one small problem.My car is a Nova(no that's
    	not the problem)It's just that connecting the RED Permenant isn't 
    	as easy as it may sound.The fuse box on the Nova is in the interior
    	facia and it's not easy to get to the back of it,so unless you
    	can suggest anything else the only other +12v is the battery..
    
    	Any ideas??????????
    
    	CHEERS
    		ANDY.
    

    Cigarette lighter, horn, interior light.
    
    Richard

    
    	Richard
    	
    		Thanks for the advise,but i have only TWO small problems.
    
    	1)My car (Nova 1.2L)Doesn't have a cigarette lighter.
    	2)The horn only works when the engine is running.
    
    		Thanks all the same!!!
    
    Anyone else?
    
    Hopefully!
    ANDY.
    

Hazard Lights ?

    
    	Thanks that's not a bad idea.But will the alternating voltage of
    	the warning lights upset the alarm???????
    	(I'm not meaning to put your suggestion down I'm just curious)
    
    
    
    CHeers
    ANDY>
    

    I thought GM radios were permanently live, and not connected through
    the ignition (or does'nt the Nova have one ? ;^)
    
    
    Shaun

I wouldn't have thought so. Although, if the alarm was armed, and the Hazards
were on, the neighbours would probably beat you sensless.

As long as you never intend to use both at the same time, I wouldn't have
thought you'd have a problem.

As to -1, my vauxhall appears to have some sort of relay in it so that it is
governed by the ignition normally, but it can be overridden. And if you think
that's weird, you should see the logic behind the electric windows.

    Even if the economy model doesn't have the cigarette lighter, the
    wiring for it may well be there. look behind the blanked off hole!.
    
    Richard

    You will find on the Nova that the Hazard Warning switch has a
    permanent live spade connector pin that is not used for the hazard
    lights. Normally it is used to supply the radio, but if you use a
    pigy-back type spade connector you can very easily connect up your
    alarm.
    
    Neil

does anyone know anywhere around Reading where I could get a _good_ car alarm
fitted?

any recomendations?

any places/makes of alarm to avoid?


thanks,


...art

    Recommended:	STOP-A-THIEF (phone number in yellow pages)
    
    			Slightly more expensive than some other mobile
    			fitters, but he turned up at the time he said he
			would, and did the job in the time he quoted.
    			He fitted a GAMMA alarm to my Golf Gti. (GAMMA
    			are Italian, and have a code of 1 Alpha, plus
    			3 numbers for the key. Giving you a pretty
    			unique sequence - unlike some of the cheaper
    			remote ones on the market.
    
    Tony 'The Wimp' Orchard.

    I rate Sextons, of Western Avenue, Woodley.
    
    I have not had any work done by them, but judging from their attitude
    and post-sales service it must be good.
    
    They stock Crimeguard Alarms.  I was looking round at the 'quality'
    makes while at the In-Car'91 exhibition.
    
    The New Crimeguard range looks impressive.  These British alarms are 
    being marketed as having very high quality control.
    
    Another key is that the unit is designed with all features on-board,
    you don't need to purchase central locking, electric windows,
    ultrasonic modules on-top.
    
    Their top-of the range was around �220+fitting.  Having a radio
    transmitter key ring, central door locking link, ultrasonic sensors and
    an on-board reserve battery.  Interior light operation.  So that when
    you unlock the car, the interior light is turned on for � a minute.
    A nice touch is an led which is attached to the door locks which
    flashes when armed.
    
    When I posed the question of generic decoders around, the salesman
    demonstrated how the system detects an attempted unlock code.  The
    system goes into a second level security (the led flash speed doubles)
    and the exact unlock code must then be transmitted for a full 5
    seconds(i.e. you have to hold the buttom longer).  This makes 
    frequency sweeps pointless.  
    
    Self fitting is not recommended, as it's a little complex.  I explained
    to the guy that I have experience of such things and he said I could
    just buy the alarm and probably fit it myself.  Not too complex, just
    difficult!
    
    I would estimate a 2 hour labour charge.
    
    The only thing which I would change in my ideal product would be to
    have microwave sensing, not ultrasonics.  So you don't have to bypass
    the unterior movement protection just because you want to leave the
    sunroof open.  Also I like scrambled egg!
    
    Robert.

    Robert I have a Sonar alarm inc ultrasonics and central locking
    connection on my RS Turbo. I know that if the sunroof is left open
    (even tilted), or if a window is left even fractionally open that the
    ultrasonics pick up movement. How do microwaves overcome this ? I take
    it you could leave all the windows and sunroof openwhen utilising
    microwave sensors then ?
    
    Also does anyone have a Sonar, and are they good jobs. Mine was 223
    quid fitted. I have installed Moss 715s on two of my previous cars as
    well as my Mum's and Aunty's (for a healthy profit :-) ). I found that
    my Mum's gives the odd false alarm (and I didn't put ultrasonics on
    her's). No false alarms from the Sonar though, but then I didn't fit it
    :-)
    Anyone had any experience of the new Moss jobbies which set up a sort
    of force field around the outside of the vehicle and warn people (in a
    human voice) that they are encroaching too close to the car, and to
    move away or "I" will sound the alarm ???! I believe it also has an LCD
    display inside which will record ans tell you if there were any alarm
    triggers, and which sensor picked it up - useful if anything is faulty,
    think they also have automatic arming, if you forget......
    
    Gary.

re -1

>    Anyone had any experience of the new Moss jobbies which set up a sort
>    of force field around the outside of the vehicle and warn people (in a
>    human voice) that they are encroaching too close to the car, and to
>    move away or "I" will sound the alarm ???! 

IMHO they are a waste of time. The last ISO SC21 meeting was held in a
'holiday camp' near Arles France. Someone had such an alarm fitted on a Merc.
All it did was encourage people to stand nearby to set the alarm off. Much to
our annoyance, it did not sound the alarm, only threaten to do so. 

Anyone who fits such an alarm to their car needs their head examining.

	Dave

    Ahh, 
    
    You have missed the subtle, fiendish plan of these alarm designers.
    
    With a crowd of people round your Merc, who is going to steel it?
    Rob. "who's now out for a fortnight"
    

    I was talking to a bloke at Jackson, (where my car is in for a circu.
    �260 36000 mile service ouch), and he boasted about how *long* it took
    them to fit a car alarm, rather than how quickly. He said that with so
    much facia work and electrics affected, they tended to take their time.
    
    Hmmm - I'll see what the quote for a fitting is, and see if the labour
    is charged for a loooong time too.
    
    Dougie
    

    I have just read an article in Cars and Car Coversions about car theft,
    alarms and the like.  They have been researching HOW cars are stolen
    with some very disturbing results.  There are the infamous 'slim jims'
    which come in very professional kits now and in their words (Without
    permission) 'The versions wa saw were neatly made with the makers name
    on the handle.  With the set, you also get a little book explaining
    what is necessary to disarm and factory fitted alarm on any model of
    car on the UK market' !!!
    
    They go on to explain how detailed the book is, and it makes very
    disturbing reading !!  With this information apparently so easily
    available, its no wonder peoples cars keep disappearing.
    
    
    Shaun.

    An attempt was made recently to break into my car (in Manchester).
    The passenger door lock has been damaged as well as surrounding
    bodywork.
    
    I guess the would be thieves were disturbed as everything else was in
    tact and nothing was stolen.
    
    I asked my manager if he thought it wise for the company to fit a VSL
    alarm as in the past alarms have been fitted to cars that have had
    breakins or been stolen. He mentioned that he had read that car fleet
    had advised that alarms are no longer considered a deterent and that
    employees should make sure they lock their cars, shut all windows and
    park under a street light ! This is considered to be enough.
    
    Has anyone else heard about this ?
    
    Roy

    re .58;
    
    well, since I left my car locked, with all windows closed, under a
    street lamp in a B.R, car park, with the removable radio removed and
    placed in the boot, and returned to find the car broken into, with the
    radio and the wiring neatly removed, at a cost to insurance of approx
    �300, I'm not sure I consider it enough...
    
    Peter	who hasn't got a VSL alarm, but has lost three radios in
    		three years.

RE: .57

Does the article (or any other article) grade car alarms as to their
effectiveness. I am thinking of buying one and would like some pointers -
spending money on something which is easy to disable does not appeal...

Cheers

Steve

    My car was broken into last night but the thief was scared off by the
    alarm which is just a remote-control current-sensing Sparkrite cheapo.
    Model no. SR70 I think. What really p!$$e$ me off is the sod slashed
    the vynide quarterlight on the soft top when he could have just pushed
    his hand through the gap between the window and the roof. Stupid. 
    I think I'll leave it unlocked with the alarm set in future, but the
    point is a cheap alarm does offer some protection.
    
    Barry. 

Top Gear last week said if you have a cabriolet, remove everything, put
the alarm on, then leave a window open. That way if they really want to
break in they won't slash the roof! I haven't decided whether they were
joking or not!

Greg

    
    I don't think they were.
    
    Someone who shares a house with a colleague here had his Golf's roof
    slashed. There didn't seem to be any intent to break in, it was just
    vandalism.
    
    Whilst Cabriolet's are fun to own on a sunny day, they're not much fun
    when you find the roof slashed on a cold, wet night. Not to mention the
    horrifically high insurance (for once, it seems appropriate too!).
    
    Mark

    Do you really think it would be a good idea to leave a window open !!!
    
    It would be a magnet for every drunk within a 100 yrd radius to come
    and throw-up/urinate onto your seats. You'd also have casual
    pedestrians using it as a convenient litter bin.

    
    I've got my new Nova which has a Vauxhall alarm,this detects intrusion
    by door pins,and vibration.The thing is that there is a fair delay
    between the door opening and the alarm going off,there is no remote to
    switch the alarm off so I have to turn the ignition key to click 3 and
    then disable the alarm.The thing is a crook in the know would be able
    to get in and perhaps disable the alarm without it going off.
    	Has anyone got any experience of the WASP alarm? This is like a giant 
    padlock,and i.m thinking of using this in conjunction with the Vaux alarm.
    
    	Any ideas?
    
    	Andy...Nice..Nova...
    
    p.s. Does anyone know whether the delay on the Vaux alarm can be
    adjusted?

>    then disable the alarm.The thing is a crook in the know would be able
>    to get in and perhaps disable the alarm without it going off.


You are not supposed to be able to disarm the alarm without the ignition key at 
postion 3, so, unless the thief has the ignition key or a dummy that acts the 
same way, the thief will not be able to switch the alarm off.....

I don't know this for certain, because I have the remote control version and my 
switch is permanently set to Auto...but that's what the book says.

It's not a bad alarm, except that I wish I could turn the "squeak" off !!

    Has anyone had any experience of persuading Fleet to pay for an alarm
    on their lease car ?  Apparently the current rules say that it has to be
    charged back to your cost centre, and I'm told we are very poor :-( 
    
    Sorry to bring up the topic of stolen cars again, (wait until it
    happens to you !) but as a relatively new starter whose car has been
    off the road longer than on it due to a recent theft -> joy-ride ->
    police chase (!) -> escape -> recovery -> draughty-drive-to-garage ->
    hire-car-for-two-weeks scenario, obviously ** I ** know that the garage
    costs (~ �500) plus the car hire (~ �200) in ** MY ** case costs more
    than putting an alarm on, and I accept that:
    
    	(cost-of-alarm) * (total-carfleet) < (total-loss-to-Digital)
    
    surely this policy needs to be more flexible for
    more-likely-to-be-stolen cars ?  The one I just got back had already
    been stolen from it's former driver and it's a fair chance it will go
    again. (Incidentally, it went off my drive, not from some dark alley or
    car park, and it's dead nice where I live (or at least, that's what the
    Estate Agent told me)). (OK, I suppose someone will put in a note about
    it not mattering where you live these days re car theft !).
    
    Even taking the fuse / rotor-arm / petrol-tank out etc. still means
    lotsa damage while they get in before they work out they can't start
    it.
    
    (Incidentally, the Police look at you in a really pained way when you
    tell them you have a boy-racer-mobile without an alarm (like "why not
    stick a sign on it saying �please steal me�"). Also it's dead
    embarrasing with your mates when your turbo-nutter-b.....d XR999 is 
    replaced by a Fiesta 1.1L). I also fancied the idea of an inflatable
    Rottweiller / tremble-operated-growling-tape for the back seat.
                                                                   

    �charged back to your cost centre, and I'm told we are very poor :-(
    
    Your cost centre will be poorer still if it continues to have to pay
    to costs of your stolen car.
    
    Normally your manager should recognise that it will cost more in the
    long run if no alarm is fitted.
    
    If you can't get any luck there. You should consider paying for one
    yourself if you don't want the hassle.
    
    Roy (I've been down this route myself. I'm still with an alarm-less
         Fiesta turbo).

    
    re .67
    
    I presume you're at Kelvin Close if you're noting from WOTVAX ? If so
    I'd just recommened you speak to your manager about car alarms and
    remind him of the number of cars stolen/broken into at the car parks
    here at K1 and K2 - another Astra went last week.
    
    Paul

    
     As stated In -.2 in a between the lines way (as I understand it) there is
     no cost to car fleet in a stolen/damaged car it's all covered by
    insurance dept/cross-charged to your cost centre so there is no benefit
    to car fleet in you having an alarm on your car, the major advantage is
    to you in inconvinience and your cost centre.
    
    Re: your cost centre being very poor at the moment all good managers
    tell people that all the time....take it with a pinch of salt 8*)
    
    Richard (young)

Why do CC managers let people order these crudy cars with no alarms in the first
place?

I thought all half-decent motors had alarms nowadays.

Dave.

If an individual wants a XR9I, Fiasco Turble, Golf VR6,Cossie, or whatever 
souped up gofaster set of wheels that would be the attraction of every joy 
rider. 

What is so wrong with idea that Digital mandating them to sponser/fund an alarm
and the cost was automatically included into the money they pay. I think we are 
talking in the region of �80/year. If the car is the "what you really, really 
oh so painfully I must have this vehicle" sort of desire. �80/yr is a snip.

Otherwise take the 1.6LS cooking version, save at least �80 and the extra 
cost of the lease.

Dave

    Certainly when (if) I get to order a new car, I will specify an alarm
    and stump up the extra dosh if necc. Unfortunately I am in the "Second
    Hand" market 'cos I'm new. I have also been led to believe that it is
    "policy" at Warrington to order cars with alarms as standard...
    un4tunately my take-over TNB came from BBP.
    
    Incidentally, I did go buy a very nice red flashing LED for 96p on
    Saturday and am happily drilling holes all over the dashboard trying to
    find somewhere where the crooks can see it when the car is parked, but
    doesn't give me an epileptic fit whilst I'm driving.

    re .72
    
    The insurance for performance cars is higher and this extra cost is
    passed on to us in the driver cost. We are already paying extra for the
    privilege of driving a car of our choice.
    
    Part of the attraction of having a company car is that whilst it is our
    responsibility to ensure it is securely locked and nothing left on
    display, it should not be up to us to pay extra to further protect 
    a car that is not our property. 
    
    Sure if you don't want the hassle and if you carry personal belongings
    around worth more than �100 then its worth paying extra yourself.
    
    Roy

My last two cars both "lost" a couple of radios, so this must have cost
�600 or so for each of them. When I suggested to my boss that she pay for
an alarm to reduce this on my new car, she said no, as her cost centre
doesn't pay for this kind of theft, but she would have to pay for the alarm.

Is she wrong? Does the cost of this come back to Insurance, or individual
cost centres?

Peter.

    re: back a couple
    
    The red flashing LED won't give you a fit whilst driving if you rig it
    with a concealed OFF switch....8*)
    
    Richard
    

Roy,
Re:.74

    >>Part of the attraction of having a company car is that whilst it is our
    >>responsibility to ensure it is securely locked and nothing left on
    >>display, it should not be up to us to pay extra to further protect 
    >>a car that is not our property. 

Your argument is fine by me. If you wish to take the risk and the car gets 
stolen, Digital supplies you with a alternate vehicle. 

Will you mind having a standard group C car. Serria 1.6lx or whatever and
having to continue paying out a lot of money for your (stolen) choice? If 
the car is recovered and repaired it might not "feel" right again. If it is 
deemed "lost" how long before you get a new car?

Also managers that take the (limited) view that "I'll have to pay for the alarm
but I don't have to if you have 10 write offs or have the car stolen 15 times" 
are looking at the problem too personally. Digital have to pay for the alarm 
cost AND insurance repair costs (except in total loss arrangements, can't 
remember what the Digital excess is but it is very high �3k? It is REAL $$
that leave the company coffers.

I think a bit more give and take from both parties is called for on this 
point.

Regards

    I guess the point that the Red Barron is trying to make is that if we
    have super-duper cars that are popular with tea-leafs, then as well as
    the additional insurance cost, we should also have to pay the extra for
    an alarm if one isn't fitted.
    
    I still disagree on principle. It _is_ the cost centre that has to pay
    for accident repairs and any other costs associated with thefts.
    It is up to your manager if he decides that fitting an alarm would save
    his cost centre money or not.
    
    Your point about a low spec hire car replacement is well taken. As I
    said in my previous reply, if you don't want this hassle pay the extra
    for an alarm yourself.
    
    Lets face it though, most popular performance cars on the scheme these
    days come with an alarm as standard anyway.
    
    Roy
    

    Well it lasted nearly a week; at least this time, it got broken into in
    K1 car park at Warrington, so I don't feel too guilty. Fortunately
    someone had showed me how to immobilise it (won't say how here as it's
    the only advantage I have over the crooks !) but it looks like it'll be
    off the road for at least another week for new glass, locks etc.
    
    Can I just point out to anyone who saw me sat in the Police Car outside
    K1 reception last night that I was filling in the report, not being
    taken away. (It's not true what they say about me, and even if it was,
    they can't prove anything...)

    What exactly is this car that is so desirable to unsavoury types?
    
    Phil Gill.

    � What exactly is this car that is so desirable to unsavoury types? �
    
    A black Ford Fiesta RS Turbo. At time of writing, it's back at BCM
    having new glass and locks; in fact I "haven't" had it longer than I 
    "have" had it. (the car I mean (oo-er, sounds a bit rude)).

    Thats a coincidence. I also have a (non-alarmed) black Fiesta RS turbo
    and the only time I've had it broken into was when I was in Warrington.
    
    Roy

Roy,

If it makes you feel any better before I gave my RS up, mine was stolen from 
Reading. I wonder if the alarm does make that much difference, my current car
( a takeover car) was stolen and recovered ( before I had it); that has an 
alarm.



Shaz 

    I live in Warrington and have Spare RS Fiesta if you'd like it :-)

    Does anyone know where I can get a new remote unit
    for a Scorpion alarm system ?
    
    Mine has become very temperamental.
    It can be rather inconvenient to set the alarm on your
    car and then find you can't disable it !?!
    
    Thanks,
    
    	Jeremy.

�    Mine has become very temperamental.
    
    Have you checked/replaced the battery in it ?
    
    J.R.

    Yes I did try a new battery, but it seems the microswitch
    inside the unit is not working.
    
    So Mark (Sparky) Watkins managed to bypass the switch by
    shorting out contacts on the circuit board with a Yale key.
    Ingenius or what!
    
    But I agree it would be a good idea to keep a spare battery
    (or unit) handy.
    

    I've been thinking that a dashboard LED indication of an armed alarm
    is probably a bad thing as it warns a potential thief that they have to
    disarm something before they break in (most alarms are fairly easy to 
    disarm if you know what to do).  If you want the alarm to go off, don't 
    tell anyone it's there in the first place.
    
    Comments ?
    Pete

I'd rather have the deterrent effect of the light.

I've had my car broken into and THEN the alarm went off.  Scared off the 
thief.  Still left my door in a mess.  

My vote goes to a big "IMMOBOLISER/generic Alarm" sticker, nice flashing 
LED.   Link it to the parking light circuit, then it won't operate when the 
engine is running.


Rob.

    Of course, the trouble with car alarms (house alarms too) is that they
    don't prevent theft. It just means that someone elses car gets stolen
    instead !  That's the trouble with the government "Crime Prevention"
    schemes - window bolts aren't going to prevent crime.
    
    Steve.

    �It just means that someone elses car gets stolen
    
    So if my car gets nicked from outside my house nad doesn't have an
    alarm then its my neighbours faults because he has an alarm fitted to
    his car !
    
    The whole idea of making your own car more secure is so 
    that the thief moves on. The Crime Prevention schemes
    are making people more aware. This is a good thing.
    
    What you appear to be saying is forget about alarms and security,
    you'll never stop theft so why bother even locking your car.
    
    Royston

    >>So if my car gets nicked from outside my house nad doesn't have an
    >>alarm then its my neighbours faults because he has an alarm fitted to
    >>his car !
    
    That's exactly right. There is no escaping the fact that the more cars
    that becom alarmed, the more at risk are those cars that don't have
    alarms. Unfortunately it ends up with the people who can't afford such
    luxury suffering the most.
    
    I'm not saying don't bother to lock your car - obviously everyone wants
    to take as much care of their property as they can. My point is that we
    get misled by the term "crime prevention". Car alarms deter thieves
    from stealing a particular car - they don't reform their character.
    
    Steve (who has an alarmed car after two others were stolen from near
    his house).
    

    
    If my car thought it was going to be stolen, it wouldn't be alarmed. 
    
    It would be flattered.
    
    Richard
    

A friend of mine was passing some guys working on the phone lines. The alarm
of her car and the 2 cars in front immediately switched on (as they were 
driving!). It wasn't Apr 1st. Can anyone shed some light on this?

	jf

    Has it Radio remote control?. I've often notice radio break-over onto
    the FM radio when I'm near BT vans.
    
    Richard

re:
�    Has it Radio remote control?. I've often notice radio break-over onto
�    the FM radio when I'm near BT vans.


Have you. I would report it to the DTI as this could be a breach of licensing 
conditions, interference to broadcast.

It doesn't surprise me though BT use 85.137 - 85.200 Mhz, very close to the 
88 - 108 Mhz broadcast band. It could just be that the front end of your 
receiver is either too sensitive or not selective enough. Although I would 
expect more interference in the first harmonic ie. 170.270 - 170.400 Mhz.

Radio car alarms are around 418 Mhz. This is between the 4th and 5th harmonic, 
there shouldn't be any RF transmitted at this frequency.

The complete Telecom frequency list is:

71.512 - 72.787 WATER BOARDS/TELECOM/LOCAL AUTHORITIES
76.962 - 77.500 CUSTOMS/TELECOM
85.012 - 86.287 WATER BOARDS/TELECOM/LOCAL AUTHORITIES/COMMUNITY REPEATERS
85.137 - 85.200 BRITISH TELECOM
450.000 - 451.000 TELECOM FIXED LINKS
464.000 - 465.000 TELECOM FIXED LINKS

    Shouldn't a remote control BT van be in the "seen in passing" note :-)
    
    Jc

    It is a pihrana remote alarm. Doesn't say much for 'security' when this
    kind of thing happens. Surely they use something more sophisticated
    than a simple FM signal...?
    
    	jf

    Heres a tip for folks with VSL alarms fitted to lease cars from Oct
    '93.

    These are the type with the red (on/off) and grey (panic) buttons on
    the remote key fob.

    You may have noticed that if you press the test (panic) button just
    after priming alarm that only the indicators flash and the alarm does
    not actually sound. This is in fact a 'feature'. When you do this it
    disables the interior sensers allowing you to leave a window open or
    sunroof open but leaves all door switches active.

    Of course you may know this already but I didn't find out until a VSL
    engineer mentioned it to me when I had an additional door switch
    fitted to the hatchback.

    Royston

re.99:

It's in the documentation you get with the alarm.

Dave.

    RE: .100
    
    I didn't get any documentation on my VSL alarm when I took the car
    over.  I'm still finding new features with it.
    
    tp

	I don't remember any documentation coming with any of my VSL Alarms, not
even with the VSL (Diesel) Engine Immobiliser on my Xantia.

				Malcolm.

I didn't get any documentation for the VSL when I got my car, just a couple
of warning stickers.  Took me ages to figure out what that mysterious keyhole
in an obscure part of the dash did!

Chris.

    re .100
    
    Dave, your one liner suggested to me that because it was 'in the ****ing
    manual' it was not worth mentioning.
    
    This notesfile is for sharing information whether its documented or
    not.
    
    Royston

re.104:

How was I to know that the VSL manual was a secret that nobody could have
guessed existed unless presented with one?

Now you know it exists, you can go ask Fleet where your copy is!

Dave.

    I've had VSL alarms on 3 of my lease cars and never had a false alarm.
    
    Last night my car alarm went off around midnight for absolutely no
    apparent reason. It wasn't raining, th ewind had died down, all the
    windows were shut, there was no sign of break-in (the cars was parked
    on a gravel drive and we have a very alert dog).
    
    Has anyone had probs with false alarms with their VSL alarms at all ?
    I'll see if it happens again before I get it checked over.
    
    Royston

>    Has anyone had probs with false alarms with their VSL alarms at all ?
>    I'll see if it happens again before I get it checked over.
 
There was a fault on the early Frontera Estate cars concerning car 
alarms. Water used to seep through the rear light fittings when
it rained and used to run along the wires to a circuit junction box.
This would spark and force the car alarm to trigger.

The fix on the later models was not to prevent water from seeping
through the light fittings, but to tie a loop in the wire 
before the junction box so that the water would drip 
off the wire!

Grant.

    My Peugeot 405 alarm was destroyed by water (I drove through a deep
    flood and being diesel I didn't worry :-)
    
    A few weeks later I had lots of problems with the alarm doing things
    that Hadleys said it couldn't - at one stage they even replaced the
    computer inside the alarm.  Turned out to be water in the door swtches
    making an intermittent contact that looked as if the doors were opening
    hundreds of times a second!
    
    Jc
    

    Ahhhhh! You may well have hit the nail on the head.
    
    That evening I (accidentally of course :) ) went storming through
    a flooded road. I guess it could well have been the water.
        
    Royston

    If the alarm goes off again tonight, whatever you do, don't switch the
    alarm off.
    
    Am I correct in remembering a note in here about a car that was stolen
    on the third night ?
    
    Graham

    Thanks for the advice. The alarm never went off this morning in the
    car park so I think its ok now.
    
    I'll keep the MP5 with M203 grenade launcher on standby tonight in case
    theres any action.
    
    Royston

    Was it the night they were testing Channel 5.
    
    Cheers Nick