Conference terri::cars_uk

    I much prefer a boot.
    
    Why? 
    
    I think they look nicer, smarter and tidier.
    I think a boot enables you to keep the car nicer, smarter and tidier.
    I never know what to do with the parcel shelf if I want to carry
    large loads. And I so rarely need to carry that much anyway (once
    or twice maybe in the life of the car).
    I believe (probably wrongly) that it is a stiffer, quieter car.
        
    My wife (notice the disclaimer!!) also says that the problem with
    a hatch is that  whenever anyone gets anything out of the back of
    the car, cold air blows in to freeze all those in the car.
    
    Cheers, Chris
    
    P.S. I have just ordered a new car - hatchback!!

    Try a mix of both:
    Have a normal boot, but take a car, which allows to have the rear
    seats folded, so you still are able to load massive loads.
    
    Regarding the freezing problem in 1124.1: That can be solved.
    Take the most beautiful hatch: Citro�n XM.
    That car has an extra window rear pane, which prevents the wind
    and rain coming in, when lid is opened.
    
    Hans

    My preference is on the Quieter side.
    
    I had an Escort XR3 and hated it. It was noisy and the body flexed.
    I had an Orion 1.6i and loved it. It was smooth and quiet (and with the
    folding seats could still take timber lengths!)
    
    I had a Sabb 99 Turbo (Saloon). It was quiet and smooth.
    I have a Sierra GLS H/B. It is noisy and rattly. I would have preferred
    a Sapphire.
    
    (I've also had and loved a Ford Capri, and a Sierra Estate. But they
    just confuse the issue (-;))
    
    JK

	Can't see how any DIY'er can manage without a hatch to be honest.

	I managed a full size bath in mine + bags of cement. How many "booted"
	cars can managed that then ?!

	Gordon

    
    I like boots coz they're more secure. You can get into any part
    of a hatchback by smashing a pane of glass. Not so a boot.

    I previously had an Escort hatch, which filled the rear end with
    water whenever it rained, besides lack of space. Next was an Orion
    far more room, now a Jetta GTI one of the largest boots on a 
    production saloon. Essential for a family of 4 & from my own point
    of view alot nicer looking than a Golf, which looks like a cut off
    Jetta!! it is also faster.
    
    For getting rid of junk, simple,I use my trailer on the towbar.
    
    Richard.                                         
    

    
    WHich catagory is the Land Rover in? :-) 

dunno Elaine, but I could just about get a Peugeot 205 (hatchback) in the back
of a long  (129") wheelbase Landy pickup... :-)

For security get one with military style (or ex electricity board) lockable
tool lockers...

Seriously: hatchbacks are an abomination: you either need space (Landy,
Renault Espace, Peugeot 505 Estate, forthcoming Toyota MPV) or you don't (buy
something with a boot). Hatchbacks fall between two stools - they flex, groan,
vibrate, and sometimes leak, but they won't carry a reasonable load (I carried
a stove, two fridges, a microwave oven, and about 10-12 full boxes of personal 
effects inside my Espace with room to spare. 

As for the DIY brigade: I don't consider any vehicle useful unless it can carry
10 8x4 foot sheets of high density particle board or half inch cabinet grade 
plywood (and only the Peugeot 505 and the Landy (109, 110 or longer) have enough 
load space to do that with the rear door shut, and the Pug might have problems 
with the weight...)

/. Ian .\

    
    Re Hatchbacks for the DIYer - I think many people confuse carrying
    capacity volume and carrying capacity weight! Last time I was in a
    garden centre loading up the back of the Landy with paving slabs and
    concrete blocks, there were an alarming number of people trying to do
    the same to their poor little hatchbacks, all driving off with the back
    flaps dragging and headlights looking skywards! 
    
    

    Ian, I think thay you are being a little unfair to hatchbacks in
    general with your somewhat dismissive tone. If we are comparing
    the Pug 205/R5GT/Astra thingies with obvious load carriers like
    the "large" vehicles that you mentioned, then sure the comparison
    is a valid one: but what about a REAL hatch like the Saab 900? Maybe
    that can't take the plywood that you mention or all you houisehold
    belongings, but it sure doesn't exhibit the twisting and general
    lack of strength (and if you don't believe me I'll happily tell
    you off line about the time a SAAB helped me to keep a working 
    set of legs in a bad tail end shunt) that you attribute to hatchbacks
    in general. And if you don;t think that they are a load carrier,
    how come I used to make regular trips to the sand pit to buy sand
    by the 500Kg+ and get it back home in it? 
    
    Question is would you buy a specific vehicle just 'cos you could
    get half a dozen sheets of plywood in the back? How many times in
    the life of a lease car do you expect to want to do that? Maybe
    if the vehicle was being bought with your own money and had to last
    several years more than two it might be a factor to consider.....

Actually I used to have a Saab 900 as a company car... and I did indeed find it
very good. But then again I had a two door (booted version with a fold down back
seat) and whenever I drove a hatch (courtesy car from the garage doing services)
I was *very* conscious of the relatively higher noise and body-flex levels.

Yes I like some big hatchs (Ford Grenada, Saab 900/9000, Citroen XM, Renault 25)
but they are still an uncomfortable (at least emotionally) compromise and I 
would prefer the booted versions (Ford Grenada 4-dr, Saab 900 2 and 4 dr, Saab 
CD, Peugeot 605 (effectively a booted Citroen XM) ...) or I would go for an 
estate (the Renault Espace shares sufficient mechanical elements with the 25
for it to be viewed as a 25 estate, I suspect). Since I would be hard pressed to
exist without the load carrying capacity these days (a recent shopping trip in a 
borrowed Peugeot 309 hatchback resulted in the car load area being full with 
the seats down... and yes we only shop every 5 or 6 weeks, except for fresh 
veggies) so I will stay with the estate option.

As for little hot hatches: well... they won't replace my old (late lamented) 
Lotus 7 as a sports vehicle, and they don't carry enough luggage - even ignoring 
payload weight - with the back seats up to really be considered a four seater.

/. Ian .\

    re.1124.6             
    Care to explain why a Golf which "looks like a cut off Jetta"
    
    and is (probably) lighter (I don't have the actual kerb weights handy)
    
    is slower than a Jetta.
    
    Mine doesn't leak or flex and is alarmed for security. A car boot
    
    is no security when the bar-stewards simply jemmy the lock off as
    
    they did on my wifes Cavalier a few months back.
    
    It has a load space big enough for most odd loads eg. kitchen units,
    
    packing crates or dustbins etc. and for lengths of wood, pipes or ladders 
    
    you can always open the sunroof!

    > Question is would you buy a specific vehicle just 'cos you could
    > get half a dozen sheets of plywood in the back? How many times in
    > the life of a lease car do you expect to want to do that?
    
    Say it's only once or twice.  What do you do when those occasions arise?
    Spend money hiring a pick-up?
    
    As I said in point 0, it's an irrelevant argument for me - the dog
    doesn't like it in the boot :-).  And I've noticed none of the problems
    mentioned with any of the hatches I've had on the lease scheme (Escort,
    Cavalier, Citro�n BX, Renault 21).
    
    With my hatches, I've enjoyed instant flexibility (of load carrying
    ability, I mean!), no problems which could be ascribed to the type,
    and I don't think I'd ever consider a boot.
    
    Jeff.

    RE 1124.10
    
    I've got a BX Estateand people always look, when the car is loaded
    heavily. You see those persons thinking (laughing): "He not going
    away with such a load"
    Then start the enine and have the car leveled perfectly.
    Solves the problem elaine!
    
    Hans

.14�    Say it's only once or twice.  What do you do when those occasions arise?
.14�    Spend money hiring a pick-up?

    No - ask in here, and someone will swap for a day!!

    I must admit I'd prefer a hatch cos' of the DIY get-it-all-in angle
    (including a 3 metre length of kitchen worktop, fit's snugly in the BX
    estate). However, I can count on one hand the number of times I've
    needed to do that. 
    
    I like the look of the new rover, the boot space on the 200 hatch hower
    is only about 60% of the boot space of the 400 saloon. Thus picking the
    car to suite me, the 400 won.
    
    I don't have as dog, and on the odd DIY occasion I'll probably get away
    with it using my wife's hatchback (couldn't do without either, but one
    should be enough :-) )
    
    Richard

The Citroen BX estate has an unladen kerbside weight of about 1 tonne, a listed
towing capacity of 21.6 cwt (a shade over 1 tonne) and [from memory] a payload
capacity including passengers and driver of about 1000 lb.

Now consider you are going to a DIY shop/garden centre. You want topsoil to
put on your garden. Surface area 100 square metres. You want to put 1 cm
of soil (only 2/5 of an inch) over the area. (I once had to put 6 times that on the
garden of a new house - an inch is not a lot, a centimetre is nothing). That is 
a cubic metre of earth.

1 cubic metre of water weighs one metric tonne. Soil is a bit denser - say
one and half tonnes?

So you and a helper (80 kgs each) go to the garden centre to buy the soil.

In a Citroen BX - self leveling suspension not-withstanding - you need three or
four trips (or two if you carry it on a trailer).

In a Land Rover it'll all go inside in one trip. If I take a trailer I can tow 
4 tonnes whilst carrying just over 1 tonne (1 tonne plus crew with a substantial
safety factor before you bottom the springs if you are staying on paved road).

So I got the soil for my new garden in one trip - with the BX you'd need about
20 trips...

Carrying my test load (8x4 wood sheets) you'd have to put them on the roof
or leave the tailgate open (dangerous - fumes can get in) in the BX - in the 
Landy they fit inside...

/. Ian .\

the With the seats folded down the Citreon has a longer load length than the 
Landy has, but only by about 1 - 2 inches.

Simon

    
    Re .18 .....
    
    Agree that you have to match the load to the vehicle, but for most
    of us that aren't able to have a (even small) fleet to choose from,
    the choice ***HAS*** to be  compromise. My contention was that being
    able to carry half a dozen sheets of plywood all at once or a ton
    of top soil once or twice in th elife of a vehicle does not make
    the kind of impact in the choice as you suggest. 
    
    For me, the primary need was top be able to carry six people in
    reasonable comfort. The fact that I also have a load carrier is
    a plus that did not really carry much weight in the argument. As
    soon as son #1 has left home for the RAF, the next choice will be
    of a vehicle that will be able to carry 5 people in reasonable comfort
    which will expand my horizons somewhat, and I'll probably go for
    another SAAB. I'll choose the SAAB (if that is the decision) because
    it accomplishes my primary need, not because it can tote 500Kg+
    of sand without upsetting the suspension too much.
                                              
    Potential rathole?
        
    PS.... Who goes to a garden centre for topsoil? I know a man that
    will deliver by the ton for about �15/ton, and lets be sensible
    nobody puts dirty bulk loads like that in the back of a car, or
    do they? (PS before anybody thinks about it I always put the sand
    into heavy duty plastic bags.....10 off at just over 50Kg each filled
    by myself and measured on the weighbridge)
    
    Money has to come into the picture somewhere as the extra cost
    of a "load carrier" compared to a saloon etc has to be amortised
    over the use th extra funtionality will give. If I was doing upa
    ahouse, for example, and knew that I was going to be doing a lot
    of hauling around, it might be a better choice to buy a second-hand
    banger type pickup or van or something just for that task.
    
    Just a thought..... keep the conversation going!

    I might never want to carry soil in my car;
    You can get 8x4's (only a couple granted) in a BX AND SHUT THE HATCH, 
    I've done it (when I had the hatch). 
    I NORMALLY want to travel in comfort.
    
    Therefore, as I can't afford several car's (or have anywhere to park
    them) I go for a comfortable saloon and beg, borrow, or get delivered
    for the FEW times it's ever needed.
    
    Ian, the landy suits YOUR life style, it wouldn't suit everyones, and
    don't compare beetroot with pineapples (the BX and landy are about as
    similar as these two)
    
    Richard
    (P.S. I alway's got what I needed in the BX I even had a load of
    concrete blocks in the hatchback, and yes it still levelled!)

agreed Richard,

but we started discussing compromises, and I simply pointed out that the 
hatchback is not my personal choice of compromise.

That said it is quite possible that I will in the future, as in the past, 
have a hatchback. It will have to be, howver, one of the larger ones.

As for the size of a BX - I was relying on a quote from an advertising campaign
(for the Peugeot 505) that claimed that it was the only estate that could carry 
an 8' load (something about being the only car large enough to take a double bed 
mattress in the load space)...

The size of the load space (as defined by Citroen) with the seats upright, is
1090 mm front to back, and 1100 mm wide. They don't quote the figure with the 
seats folded, but if the diagrams in my Citroen literature are to scale it is 
somewhat less than 2 metres long. (scaling the diagram would give a load length of 1600mm - 63" or only
about 5')

Perhaps you could explain how the figures are so much in error? (8' is 96" - 
over 2 metres...)

/. Ian .\

    Re: .21
    
    WHat do you mean the Landy and BX are very different. They've both always
    been in my mind as Utility vehicles.......
    
    
    JK (stir_and_retire...)

    RE .20
    
    Agree: If I want to have tons of soil into my garden, I'll have
    this delivered. Deliverance fee is quite low at my place.
    
    Hans
    

	� With A 101 all utility problems would be solved

	Do you mean a 110 (as in Land Rover)?



	Pedantic Range Rover owner.

    
    The vehicles often used by the Army for Ambulances -

Yep - the 101 (now discontinued) is a forward control (ie the driver sits ontop
of or in front of the front axle) with a 101" wheelbase, 1.5 tonne rating and a
truck sized load space (over 2 metres long), designed for the military.

However much as I dispute the claim that a BX has enough space to hold an 8x4
with the tailgate closed (with the seat up the hatchback has a load length
of 892mm or 35.1" - and I simply don't believe that folding and tumbling the 
back seat increases this by over five feet! It also has a load width of 1120 mm
or only 44", so it can't take the 8x4 sheet across its width either!) this 
wasn't really my point, even though I regularly carry 8x4 scenery flats and
8' rolls of background paper in my Landy (a 110, though the company has a
couple of 129s to replace the 110s in this role now).

It is often suggested that people who find a booted car too small could use a
hatchback - and DIY is an oft cited case. I simply find this argument breaks 
down too often. True few "normal" cars, hatchbacks or estates have the payload
capacity to handle light construction work (few better 1200 lbs payload), but 
then you could handle those jobs with a trailer.

I have two real objections to the capacity argument for hatchbacks:

1) the shape of the load area: most hatchbacks (yes I know there are a few 
exceptions) have steeply raked hatchs, giving an almost triangular load space,
preventing their use for bulky loads (such as a fridge or cooker).

2) the nature of the load floor: many have soft, semi-flexible load decks over 
the open space of the spare wheel well. Place a heavy load on this and the
feet of the load may well punch holes in the flooring, or the back of the folded 
rear seat.

To this you can add the problems that some have with increased noise and body 
flexing (which they share with estates - but at least the estate has a good
rectangular cross-section load space, and usually a solid load floor.

Yes I can see cases where they are a useful compromise:

1) the DINKY family (Dual Income, No Kids, Yuppy mindset) who need a car for
occasionally carrying a couple of friends, or as a two seater with luggage 
capacity for holidays. For these people (and there are a lot of families, my own
icluded that fit this space to a greater or lesser extent) the hatch is a good
alternative to the 2 seater sports car or 2+2 coupe.

2) the family + pet scenario. Surely this is what they were intended for? :-)

And of course larger hatchbacks extend the DINKY case to the family of 4/5 with
the occasional need to carry a lot of luggage.

I didn't really suggest the 8x4 sheets or tonne of soil/sand/cement as a use
for an estate: this is the role of the utility vehicle or "full size" pickup
truck. I suggested it to point out that the extra space of a hatchback doesn't 
really equip it for bigger tasks - merely extends its usefulness as a family
car.

In the case of the question posed by the base note, I don't find the hatchback
a useful alternative to the booted car: in all the cases where I could see
the extra space of the hatchback as useful I would see the space offered by
an estate as more compelling. If you don't need the space often enough then
put a tow ball on the saloon, or hire an estate or light van to do the job.

/. Ian .\

The next note (by me) is a DDIF import. If you do not wish to see it then
skip it.

It is a picture of a F.C. 101 without the tilt on.


Simon

    The 8x4's fitted into the BX at shelf height (where it's widest AND
    longest, running from the rear window right up to the front seat
    headrests!. 
    
    The number you can carry is dependent on their thickness as the width
    tapers off rapidly towards the roof.
    
    Agree'd, at floor level, between the wheel arches, and with the seat
    squab in the way, and with the tailgate lock protruding, the useable
    rectangular area is a lot less, but then again it probably is at floor
    level in the landy (don't nuke me I'm only guessing :-) ).
    
    Don't alway's rely on the books giving the EXACT sizes :-).
    
    Richard

In a truck cab Landy floor level is longer than just above floor level.


                        +------+
                        |      |
	                |      |
	+               |      +----+
	|               \           |
	|                \          |
	+-----------------+---------+
           /   \               /   \
           \   /               \   /
            ---                 ---

Fig. Cut away Landrover.

As you can see, there is an increase in length at floor level. 

Simon. 

    but is the floor full width around the wheel arches (just asking, not
    accusing :-) )
    
    Richard

There is a box section. The next reply is another DDIF. It is a quick pickie 
of the back end of a Landy truck cab...

Simon

Sticking pictures in notes like that is really nifty!

Would you mind saying how you do those?

Jon

    ... and there's me thinking that he had lapsed into Serbo-Croation
    or Upper swahili.......

    What am I supposed to do with it?  All I see is
    
    		<< Graphic content appears here >>
    
    Jeff.

In DECwindows notes on Vogon the pic appears immediately you read the note - no
extract is required.  Are you still using vanilla notes, Jeff?  Or maybe Nearly
has an older version installed. 

Jon

This is the IED notes conference isn't it?

:-)

Jon

    I don't like the DECwindows interface to notes, so I don't use it.
    I might like it if I could still use the keypad commands.
    
    Jeff.

You can use keypad commands, you just have to make sure your input focus is in
the right window... (notes isn't very good at setting input focus itself!)

Scott

    	Thanks for pointing that out Jeff!!! I had the same problem but was
    too timid to say anything...
    
    Colin

    
    You can use all the keypad type commands in DECWindows note. The only
    difference is that there is no "type-ahead" in DECWindows Notes...that
    can be a wee bit annoying when waiting for 650 lines worth of note to
    be mapped into memory !

amazing... all I did was to enter a relevant note (all be it a picture) or two
and the entire topic has been rat holed into a discussion on the virtues of 
DECwindow notes V. normal notes.

Jamie Anderson would be proud of me.

Simon   ;-)

    
    Well, it's better than the Landy rathole, which falls into neither
    category !

ahem...

A Land Rover County is a [trail] car with a tailgate, and as such is as much
a hatchback as, say, a Reliant Scimitar or an Audi Avant (which the makers
insist is not an estate, but a 5 door touring car).

/. Ian .\