Conference terri::cars_uk

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Note 935.3                     VOLVO 440 comments?                        3 of 7
VANISH::BARRON "Snoopy Vs Red_Barron"                24 lines  24-JAN-1990 14:54
                     -< servicing is not cheap..I agree. >-
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Re: last

>That's an interesting comment as the 440 is listed in our local dealer as the
>cheapest of the Volvos to service at under #70 for a 6000 mile/6 month service.
>

That is not cheap or is that what you are implying. They may be the cheapest 
of the Volvos but thats like saying the Fiesta 950L is the cheapest of the 
Fords. Sounds like "I tell no lies but then I don't mention the truth 
either."

For comparision the servicing costs for
	
	a)lease Ford Sierra 2.0i 
	 6,000 - �48  inc VAT (labour rate �30) Main dealer garage
	12,000 - �117 inc VAT		"              "
	
	b) Our own froggy BX14E
	 6,000 - �38 inc VAT (labour rate �25) Main dealer garage
 	12,000 - �72 inc VAT (labour rate �25) Main dealer garage

Do you know what a Volvo garage charges for 12,000 service?

Dave (whos_looking_into_getting_a_Westfield)

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Note 935.4                     VOLVO 440 comments?                        4 of 7
SUBURB::GALEC "Chris Gale"                            4 lines  24-JAN-1990 17:28
                       -< Starts at 130 and grows ..... >-
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    A standard 12,000 mile service on a 360 GLS is about 130 pounds.
    
    Chris. (whos interested in a Fairthorpe but can't face the weather!)

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Note 935.5                     VOLVO 440 comments?                        5 of 7
BRIANH::NAYLOR "Purring on all 12 cylinders"          2 lines  25-JAN-1990 09:01
                 -< Hey, I use quick-change places and DIY!! >-
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Standard service on my 240 usually works out at around 20 pounds - but then *I*
would NEVER use our local Volvo dealer!

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Note 935.6                     VOLVO 440 comments?                        6 of 7
VANISH::BARRON "Snoopy Vs Red_Barron"                14 lines  25-JAN-1990 09:58
                        -< Volvo is'nt the only crook! >-
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Re
>Note 935.5
>Standard service on my 240 usually works out at around 20 pounds - but then *I*
>would NEVER use our local Volvo dealer!

What choice does the punter whos just bought a brand new car have? Its the
same in any service industry. Lock them in with an extended warrenty and
say if you don't use the dealer for a service you could invalidate the
warrenty. 

Has anyone tried to claim a warrenty repair from a dealer whilst using a 
cheaper non-dealer garage?

Dave

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Note 935.7                     VOLVO 440 comments?                        7 of 7
UKCSSE::BUDD "Don't ask me THAT question!"            7 lines  25-JAN-1990 10:30
                                 -< RATHOLE! >-
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    THATS'S ENOUGH!
    
    The topic was for VOLVO 440 comments and all but the first reply are
    going down a service cost rat hole. A worthwile subject for a separate
    note me thinks.
    
    Back to the base topic please.

	Peugeot operate fixed service charges. For the 205 it's

	6000 	Oil Service	�50
	12,000 	Bigger one	�98
	24,000	Bigger still	�170

	It's the same apparently for all 205s.

	What's yours?

	-John

	Nissan 200SX. Cost converted from Dutch Guilders...

	Oil Service	                           = �30
	Oil Service + Inspection                   = �37
	Oil Service + Inspection + everything else = � ? ( Haven't had one, yet)
	

	Gordon
	

    
    
    	Re .7 
    
    	Gorden , you said that you had only got the car 7 weeks ago,
    	thats (putting 2 + 2 together and coming up with 5 ) :-
    	� 67 /7 =  �9.6 per week or �499.20 a year for OIL !!!
    
    	good job it goes 300 km for 1 litre of diesel :-)

    
    
    	Thinking about it, brought back memories of the time I used to 
    	have a Daimler Soveriegn, at one point just before getting it
    	serviced ( I couldn't get it serviced for 3 weeks ) I was getting 
    	19 mpg of oil. Still i guess the underneath never rusted after that.
    
    	Garry

>        Re .7 

         Gorden what are the mileage intervals for the car and do you know
the labour rate the garage charged? 

If could be  �10 for oil + �20 labour = �30 lube service 

Labour =�20/hr service time = 1 hour OR
Labour =�40/hr service time = 30 mins
Labour =�80/hr service time = 15 mins

or what?

Dave

>        <<< Note 937.8 by UFHIS::GVIPOND "this is my personnal name" >>>
                               -< cheap !! >-

	Now now Garry...!

	Tis a new car, has a cat and needs loadsa oils changes so...

	First oil change is at 1000 klicks which I covered in less thana week,
	and was gratis. Second oil change was at 5000 km's which I had done 
	about 3 weeks later. I've just had the 10,000 Km oil change and 
	inspection, drove down to Austria and toured about a bit when I was
	too knackered to ski at Christmas !

	So I've covered a lot of kilometres in a relativel short time, I
	don't normally travel this much. But yes, this beast does need 
	an oil change every 5000 kilometres.

	So 2 + 2 could equal, just leave out the cost of oil ! 

	Gordon
	

So, putting in a CAT increases the frequency of oil changes?

>So, putting in a CAT increases the frequency of oil changes?


	Yes, by a factor of two !!!. I queried this in the 200SX topic
	and it's an unfortunate fact of life , at the moment anyway.
	The dealer I'm going to has said I can have synthetic oil put
	in at the next service ( at extra cost of course ) which brings
	the oil change period more or less in to line with the non-cat
	version of the car. 

	It's something to do with the cat version "running" hotter.

	Gordon

	Oh, as for the brakedown of the service costs I'll post them
	next week.

    
    Gordon,
    
    I'm suprised that the manufacturers don't insist on synthetic oil
    for a turbo car anyway. It's generally agreed that very few (if
    any) mineral oils are really up to the temperatures generated by
    a turbocharged engine.
    
    Mark

	Mark,

	that's what I thought but. I had a chat with one of their service
	engineers prior to taking delivery about the 5000 kilometer oil
	change period and how about using synthetic oil. 

	He said that the initial running in period, 15,0000 kilometers to
	be safe, had to be done with 'normal' oil. Apparently using 
	synthetic oil doesn't 'bed' things in properly and causes problems
	latter on. He had been on the advanced service_a_turbo course and
	sounded like he knew what he was talking out. But I suppose in these
	matters we have to do as the dealer advises or the guarentee could
	be in jeopardy, and I don't fancy shelling out for a new a 
	engine !

	Gordon

    
    Interesting.
    
    I've not heard that before, but I suppose there could be a danger
    of 'over-protection' during the running in phase when a certain
    amount of wear is desirable.
    
    I also don't know if the 200SX has an oil or water-cooled turbo.
    The Renault has the latter and so may be less suseptible to wear
    due to the wrong type of oil (The Renault also only has an oil
    change every 6000 miles).
    
    Mark

These last few sound like very good reasons for not buying a turbo car, nor one
with a CAT.  I'll stick with the Jag ..... and run the old 240 into the ground
over the next 20 years!

    I'm confused here!, you started off blaming the short service intervals
    on a CAT (catalytic converter - yes?) then switched to blaming turbo's.
    
    Yes I can see that the turbo get hot (though interestingly, the BX
    turbo is 6000mls, the non-turbo 5000), but the cat is located under the
    car in the exhaust system, this shouldn't have a bearing on the cooling
    of the engine?.
    
    Richard

    My car - complete with cat - here in the US requires oil changes
    with service at every 10,000 miles, unless it's being driven in
    bad conditions (unmade roads, lots of salt, etc.) or towing a caravan,
    in which case every 5,000 miles. (I have the big workshop manual
    which specifies this).
    
    I was under the impression that with unleaded fuel (which is required
    if you're going to have a cat) made oil last longer anyway.
                                                    
    Seems to me like it might be the turbo that's causing thermal breakdown
    of the oil rather than the cat, which only gets hot at the
    post-combustion stage.
      
    John

and another statistic to do what you will with ... my RX7 needs an oil change
every 3000 miles, and that's turbo'd and cat'd

    re: hotter running.
    
    Doesn't some of the engine heat escape via the exhaust? Perhaps the
    cat. prevents this to some extent.
    
    Chris

Yeah!  You should feel the blast from the fantail on the E-type after a quick
run from Glasgow to Ayr.  Fry your breakfast on it!!

CATs *need* heat to work efficiently, and the catalytic action will generate
more, but I'm still totally confused as to why this should have any effect on
the engine oil.  We run a VW Rabbit in the US and it gets oil changes every
5000 miles and it comes out pretty clean - indicating to me that it's the
fuel impurities that cause some of the problem.

Confused-of-Ayr

This sounds like the usual b/s from garage reception desks.  Adding a cat will 
in no way affect the life of the oil.  The engine may run slightly cooler due 
to the richer mixture necessary, but I doubt it will run hotter.  The 
difference will be insignificant.  The fact that the cat runs at about 300�C 
just means that the bottom of the car gets hot!

The turbo is the culprit here.  It's interesting that manufacturers still take 
quite different views on the frequency of oil changes considering that all 
their products are basically similar.  Perhaps its differing views of where 
the marketing (long service intervals) vs engineering (clean oil is better) 
tradeoff lies.

Mike.

    
    But isn't Gordon comparing a Non-Cat 200SX turbo with a Cat version?
    
    How do you explain that?
    
    Mark

    
    I think its the impurities in old oil that damage the platinum in
    the catalytic converter.
    
    The older the oil gets the more impurities the dirtier the exhaust
    the more likely you are to damage the converter.
    
    Chris.

	The lack of hard fact in this column suggests, not 
	surprisingly, that the majority ie. lease car users
	aren't actually interested in this subject. Can't
	blame them for that but do they actually know what's
	being paid?.

	-John

   Re .26 
    
    Oil in the exhaust?..... do you burn that much? I thought that the
    days of the cars engine that was expected to burn oil as a matter
    of course went out with the dodo.
    
    The catalyst CAN get poisoned, that's why you have to use Lead-free
    petrol. The lead kind of "smothers" the active compounds (usuallu
    palladium and platinum on a zeolite base, making it incapable of
    activating the NO---->NO2 and CO--->CO2 reactions. 

Re: .27
>        The lack of hard fact in this column suggests, not 
>        surprisingly, that the majority ie. lease car users
>        aren't actually interested in this subject. Can't
>        blame them for that but do they actually know what's
>        being paid?.
>
>        -John

I'm interested because as well as having a lease car, I also run a car for
my wife's use. I always check the invoice even on the lease car after a 
service. It helps to know the service costs of different vehicles as
we will have to change it at some point. Probably when the cost of repairs
and unreliability become an issue. 

Dave.

    re .27
    
    by BX DTR Turbo averages about �35 for the 6,000 mile oil change,
    and about �80 for the 12,000 mile service.
    
    It only jumps above that if it needs a new headlamp or whatever.
    
    Front tyres still have plenty of wear after 31,000 miles.
    
    Peter.
    

	Re. 200SX cat/non-cat.

	Yes I (aka Nissan NL) did blame the cat for the frequency of oil
	changes. Sorry if I seemed to jump to blaming turbo's in the next
	breath but the two factors, according to Nissan, are inexorably
	linked. I can't present a technically precise explaination as to
	WHY the oil changes must be twice as often, only that is what 
	the dealer INSISTS !

	I'll be in over in England the coming weekend, if I pass a Nissan
	dealer I'll drop in and see if he can explain any better, in English.

	FWIW As this is not a lease car but mine, albeit my company's, I
	     really would like to know the facts, as I'm paying the bills.

	Gordon
	

Re .30	>>by BX DTR Turbo averages about �35 for the 6,000 mile oil change,
    

Bit steep just for an oil change - or do they do other service things at the 
same time?  If anyone charged me more than about #10-12 for an oil change I'd
wonder what kind of gold alloy was in the oil!

Mind you, the E-type takes 10 litres of oil in the engine so I'm happy if it
comes to less than #20!  Ahhhhh - maybe the Citroen takes 30 litres?

>>       <<< Note 937.32 by BRIANH::NAYLOR "Purring on all 12 cylinders" >>>
>>                         -< May be semantics but ... >-
>>Bit steep just for an oil change - or do they do other service things at the 

    Don't forget that they also have to charge for labour (�25-�35 per
    hour), and VAT on top of it all. (plus the oil's charged at top-whack)
    
    You NEVER get something for nothing, especially at a garage!.
    
    Richard

OK, so an oil change takes about 15 minutes max - and the local Jaguar dealer
In ayr (the most expensive) charges #20 per hour, so that's #5.  Oil is usually
Mobil or some other "brand" and even at top whack is not more than #2 per litre,
EVEN on forecourts!  Adding up we get to #15, assuming 5 liters, and with VAT it
comes to just about #18 - half of what the Citroen costs.

Last one I had done was on the Volvo - at Smileys.  Oil AND filter changed, 
while I watched - cost #9.80 incl VAT.  Full service with plugs and so on and
a FULL inspection worked out at under #30.  And if you know what should be done
there's no risk as they invite you to watch them do it!

    Re: .32
    
>    You NEVER get something for nothing, especially at a garage!.
    
    Oh yes you do.....you just have to find the right garage/mechanic etc.
    
    I regularly get things like fan-belts tightened for nothing...
    
    :-)

    
>    You NEVER get something for nothing, especially at a garage!.
    
     I would amend that to say "from a main dealer" - everything they do has
    to be  'accounted for' - ie on a time sheet, or booking spare parts out
    of stores etc. Also, many of their customers will have company cars,
    and whose business they will have anyway, regardless of service and
    cost.
    
    Small business's (I've found) are usually more willing to give some 'free' 
    help, hoping that you will come back to them when something more serious 
    goes wrong.
    
                                         

Re: .36

>>    You NEVER get something for nothing, especially at a garage!.
>    
>     I would amend that to say "from a main dealer" - everything they do has
>    to be  'accounted for' - ie on a time sheet, or booking spare parts out
>    of stores etc. Also, many of their customers will have company cars,
>    and whose business they will have anyway, regardless of service and
>    cost.
    
I cannot agree with that.  I have had many things supplied by a "main dealer"
free of charge.  Once I queried why a bill seemed very low and it was kindly
suggested that there was no error and I shouldn't ask more.

jb

My wife had the exhaust fall off the Golf in Oxford. She went to the main 
VAG dealer there, who fitted a new back box on it for �99. 

She was not charged labour - the guy at the service desk said that they made
enough money on the parts as it was!

Steve

    The warranty on my Pug 405 GLDT Estate has just expired. Up to now,
    it's been dealer-serviced, and has a full service history. I have done,
    so far, 70K miles in it, so servicing comes round quite quickly, and as
    I plan to sell it next Feb (the 806 arrives), I expect to need at
    least one more service. Servicing costs are quite high, and I'm happy
    to just change the oil, filters etc on the "little" services, just
    having a "big" service done at the dealer, which should save me some
    dosh.
    
    The question is, how valuable is FSH? Would the 100quid(ish) I'll save
    in 2K and 8K miles miles be negated by a drop in value when I come to
    sell or P/X the car in 3 months? Does the panel think I should keep up
    the FSH or will the dealer not really care about it?
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

Well, you could always spend 3 quid or so and make up an official 
looking stamp ! No, thats fraud.....

As a buyer, I would not be worried about missing the minor ones. But 
then dealers are quick to spot anything that would save them money.

So, I guess it depends if you are selling it privately or in p/ex.

Alan

    
    On a 'special' car I wouldn't look at it unless it had a FSH, on
    an ordinary runabout (no disrespect meant) the fsh is marginal imo.
    If you've already agreed trade in on a new Pug I suspect the garage
    wont even look at your old car before they hand over the keys 
    as long as they get your new money.
    

    The garage I'm trading it into is the one that does 95% of the
    servicing; they already know the car well. They've said they'll pay me
    a minimum of 7K, which is on the low side for a Nov. '93 GLDT Estate in
    VGC, with FSH and 70K of "long" miles on the clock. Mind you, by the
    time Feb arrives, it'll be more like 78K!
    
    Laurie.

    
    Why not sell it privately ? and get a bigger discount for cash ?
    
    
    
    
    

    Well, it's Channel Islands registered, and I'm living in Brussels. The
    dealer has agreed to register it for me. I suspect I'll have to pay the
    tax... I may ring HM Customs and Excise and see that they say about
    importing it.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.