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Conference terri::cars_uk

Title:	Cars in the UK
Notice:	Please read new conference charter 1.70
Moderator:	COMICS::SHELLEYELD

Created:	Sun Mar 06 1994
Last Modified:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:	2584
Total number of notes:	63384

863.0. "Electric Cars for the Future?" by VANILA::LINCOLN (Reality is not what it seems) Tue Nov 21 1989 13:14

	Here's a subject to bore you all!

		The Electric Car is on it's way, Slowly!

	Electric cars aren't exactly new, in fact they predate
	petrol cars. One book I once read included the odd fact
	that at the beginning of the 20th century there were
	more electric cars on the roads of the USA than petrol.

	Of course the petrol car proved more amenable to improvement
	and in no time at all the electrics were wiped out. The
	technology of these early cars was that of the lead-acid 
	battery and this hadn't changed much when attempts were
	made to resurrect electrics starting in the 60's. 

	The great problem with EC's is that the sheer size of 
	the batteries needed. Basically it takes about 25kW(33hp)
	to propel a small car at 70mph. If therefore you provide
	enough batteries to provide for a modest 100 mile range
	at full speed then you'll need half a ton of lead-acid
	batteries to do the job, and that's far more than half the
	weight of such a car. In fact the extra weight probably means
	that you'll need more power anyway. Also of course the
	accelleration with such a large load would be abysmal and
	yet you'd need to provide extra powerful brakes - altogether
	A no go situation.

	Designers tried to get around this problem by reducing the
	size of the vehicle and reducing it's maximum speed to make
	the end result tenable. None of these attempts met with any
	success. The most notable failure being the Sinclair C5 which
	followed these lines to the limit and produced a 'vehicle'
	that nobody wanted to travel in.

	The answer must lie in a better battery, and until this comes
	about there's not likely to be any better penetration of the
	market than the milk float.

	Peugeot are going to produce a version of their 205 powered
	by Nickel-Cadmium batteries. These aren't a lot better than
	Lead-Acid and the resultant 60 miles at 60 mph, 11.3 secs to
	reach 30mph isn't going to set the world on fire. But at least
	it's a proper car and might find a niche as a city commuter
	where the merits show to best effect. ie.

	* Virtually silent
	* Vibration free
	* No fuel used when stationary
	* Hardly any maintenance
	* Non polluting at point of use
	* Extremely cheap to run - equivalent to well over 100mpg.

	Remebering that some city centres are getting so congested that
	the authorities are for ever looking for ways to improve things
	they may also be made even cheaper (relatively) by legislation.

	To make a really big breakthrough though there's got to be
	a major improvement in battery technology. Whilst it is now
	possible, if desired, to vastly reduce the weight of cars
	there's still the problem of the great mass of batteries to
	be carried. If say a battery of twice the capacity were 
	available then it could either be used to double the range
	of the car or, in conjunction with reduced weight, to halve
	the acceleration times. Either way this would produce something
	a lot more desirable to the public. Improve batteries 5 times and
	you've got something equivalent to a base level petrol car.

	I came accross a book in my local library on batteries and
	had a look at what it had to say about developements. The
	information included is obviously not secret so perhaps may
	not contain the most promising developments. Most of the
	research is from the US.

	* There are several types being worked on that provide 3x the
	lead acid level. Some of these are similar to batteries as
	we know them but one at least consists of an arrangement
	of a large tank containing electrolyte which is pumped through
	a separate chamber to generate the electricity. This would
	allow for 'instant' refills in a similar manner to fillups
	now except that the used stuff would need to be removed too.
	The chemicals used are pretty inocuous apparently.

	* More intersting it seemed were the high temperature batteries
	of which the main type was said to be the sodium/sulphur. These
	are similar to traditional batteries but have to operate at
	the high temperatures at which the constituents are liquids.
	The sodium sulphur one needs about 550 degrees F to work, and
	the chemicals used can be pretty dangerous they said and there's
	a finite risk of the battery rupturing if misused. It doesn't
	seem impossible to overcome this problem though. Having to heat
	them up before you can get started is another drawback, though
	with good insulation this could be minimised. To set against
	these seemingly considerable disadvantages has to be placed the
	merits which are a storage capacity of 'at least' 10x the lead
	acid model and near to 100% efficiency. (Most others mentioned
	only return some 65%-80% of the energy put in). Quite cheap to
	make too. You could make a real car with these if the problems
	could be overcome.

	Well that seemed to be that until I read in the Sunday Times
	last week of something that might revolutionise the situation
	completely. I looked at the article several times thinking it
	might be a spoof (It wouldn't be the first time they've been
	taken in!) but had to contend that I didn't know enough to
	doubt what was written so yertis -

	* The nuclear battery. This device generates electric power
	directly from nuclear waste. Built something like a transformer
	in a state of contiuous electrical oscillation the escaping 
	Alpha particles are converted to electricity as they try to escape 
	through the coils. The result is a small battery that will
	produce power continously for 35 years. The strontium 90 used
	is of course potentially dangerous, but apparently not much.
	It's said that the particles won't pass through a sheet of
	kitchen foil. Also this substance, which is what's left over
	from a normal reactor, is the stuff that nobody really knows 
	how to get rid of anyway. Of course the merits of using something
	like this can, and undoubtedly will, be hotly debated. On balance
	I think I'd take the risk rather than suffer the more certain 
	effects of acid rain, global warming and ozone problems that
	current systems generate. I'll admit of course to not really
	knowing much about things nuclear and have to take best advice
	in such matters, and the article isn't very specific about likely
	availability of usable models - ie it's still in the experimental 
	stage.

	Also the thought of getting a near silent, virtually maintenance
	free car complete with fuel for 35 years might influence public
	opinion too should this become a reality. 

-John

T.R	Title	User	Personal Name	Date	Lines
863.11	News	VANILA::LINCOLN	Reality is not what it seems	`Mon Jan 29 1990 12:03`	24
	Some more info on Electric Car developments. Los Angeles has ordered 3,000 of the Peugeot 205s to test the feasibility of electric car use. I would imagine that this will make it the biggest selling electric car of all time. General Motors has announced an electric car called the Impact. It's said to have performance close to that of a conventional car and a top speed of 100mph. The range is given as 120 miles but they don't say at what speed. I somehow doubt that it's at such a high speed and would guess it's more likely to be 55mph being in the US. I wonder whether it uses sulphur battery technology?. Volkswagen are experimenting with a hybrid vehicle which runs on batteries to 30mph and conventionally above that. Clive Sinclair hasn't totally given up on electric vehicles and is talking about his small car version. Unfortunately the artists impression showed a rather futuristic vehicle which I can't imagine people buying. The great merit of the 205 version is that it is a 'proper' car. -John
863.12		SAC::PHILPOTT_I	Col I F 'Tsingtao Dhum' Philpott	`Mon Jan 29 1990 13:55`	7
	Seen recently in the press: you will be able to buy an electric motor option for the Audi 100 Quattro - flick a switch and run on electric - on long journeys switch back to the engine and simultaneously charge the electric motor. Only problem is it adds �9000 to the price of the quattro (already �20k+) /. Ian .\
863.13	silent 205	NCEIS1::CHEVAUX	Patrick Chevaux, Nice, 828-6995	`Mon Jan 29 1990 17:50`	7
	re .11 3000 cars for a test ! Sounds more like a real firm order to me. Over here (France) it is known that Peugeot will announce the "205 electrique" later this year and that a number of french towns will use them for urban services.
863.14		VANILA::LINCOLN	Reality is not what it seems	`Tue Jan 30 1990 13:06`	5
	I think the LA purchase is for their 'public works' departments. Perhaps they want to set an example or such like. -John
863.15		BRIANH::NAYLOR	Purring on all 12 cylinders	`Tue Jan 30 1990 15:11`	5
	>> Perhaps they want to set an example >>or such like. you betcha - with the emission laws in Ca the way they are, the electric cars have NO problem passing inspection for the next nnn years!
863.16		COMICS::WEGG	Some hard-boiled eggs & some nuts	`Wed Jan 31 1990 11:07`	17
	There was an item on the Radio 1 news last night about three of the current (:-)) electric cars projects. PEUGEOT 205: Max speed 65 mph. Range 40 miles. A Peugeot spokesman said that it was only to be the 'commercial' vehicle, (i.e. the van) as with this range/speed, it's major benefit would be for in town deliveries. Peugeot did not see any market at the moment for a domestic car with the current limitations in technology. SINCLAIR C15: Sir Clive is pressing ahead with his car design. No firm details, or even extravagant claims. GENERAL MOTORS: Two seater of 'tear drop' design. 0-60 in 8 secs, maximum speed 100 mph, but will be governed to 65. No claims about the range. Ian.
863.17	orginal Sinclair info	NYEM1::MILBERG	Barry Milberg	`Wed Jan 31 1990 12:18`	9
	I had an opportunity to buy one of the original Sinclairs HERE IN THE STATES - someone had 'smuggled' one in! It may still be available - so what is the availability of parts currently and did anyone own one and have any long term ownership comments? It will be for limited, fun use. -Barry-
863.18	On C5	VANILA::LINCOLN	Reality is not what it seems	`Wed Jan 31 1990 13:05`	16
	Well basically what happened was that nobody bought this 'death trap' contraption. Production was soon stopped and it's said that the majority ended up in Holiday Camps - ie off the public roads. No idea if you can get any support but I doubt whether much would be needed either. What I always thought about the C5, was that if it had actually been what it was legally said to be ie. 'An Electrically Assisted Bicycle' it could have been quite successful. It would have been cheaper to run, and quieter than the ubiquitous 50cc bicycle. Trouble is that Clive Sinclair doesn't often have much sense of what the public wants and his hit rate is somewhat erratic!. -John
863.19		SAC::PHILPOTT_I	Col I F 'Tsingtao Dhum' Philpott	`Wed Jan 31 1990 13:18`	11
	I caught a piece on one of the "daytime magazine" programmes recently (I was off sick) about a bloke in the North of England somewhere who has cornered the market in C5s. He exports them to America (as children's toys for the rich and famous), and to Australia (where they put extra motors in them and race them). He already charges more than Clive Sinclair did for them, and hopes to get over �10,000 for the last couple when the supply runs out. Incidentally it appears somebody is hoping to break 100mph in one soon... /. Ian .\
863.20	Ah sweet memories!	SHAPES::STREATFIELDC	Run a Beetle?..IOSG::AIR_COOLED	`Wed Jan 31 1990 14:13`	15
	I had one myself, on loan from a friends shop (advertising purposes) It was great fun, but in a crowded high street, with parked cars, and lorrys pulling out to overtake them, you needed either a death wish, or to be blind drunk (preferably both:-)) They got up to what seemed like quite high speeds when you were in it, but you had to pedal to start off. I managed to roll it once on a towpath along the Thames, much to the delight of a friend who was on his bike, we then proceeded to simulate roll conditions for about �hr until my freind rolled out of the C5 into the reeds in the river (touch�!) Good fun, but not safe on the roads! Carl.
863.21		PEKING::TAYLORG	Bodybuilders do it till it hurts	`Thu Feb 01 1990 08:21`	5
	re-1 I think the C5 had a top speed of 15mph. Grant
863.22		COMICS::WEGG	Some hard-boiled eggs & some nuts	`Mon Feb 05 1990 08:06`	16
	I made one of my regular pilgrimages to the Fernhurst Motor Company this weekend - always a favourite jaunt for a Sunday afternoon. Amongst the collection at the moment are 4 TVR's (including 1 brand new), a Morgan, several Jaguars of various ages, 2 TR6's, a very well kept MGA, several MGB's and an MGC. There was a Triumph Stag with the registration 90 MPH, an American vehicle I couldn't identify and several others I've forgotten about. And standing on the pavement outside the showroom doors: A Sinclair C5! It didn't have a price on it - and having spent some time drooling over the cars above, trying to look like genuine customer, I'm sure you'll forgive me for not asking! Ian.
863.23		VANISH::TALBOYS	Peter Talboys 774-6162	`Mon Feb 05 1990 11:36`	7
	The C5 is up for 795 pounds, or was when I was in there last. You might even have seen my ex TVR up there having the back end repaired _again_ dark BRG with TVR8S plate ... They've got some nice machinery in the workshops at the moment, including a couple of E-types, an AC Ace, and a Cobra replica, an XK120, recently imported from the States, that didn't survive the crossing too well, and a couple of big '30s Lincolns, and of course a few TVR's ... Ho hum, I'm going to miss going up there every few weeks :-(
863.24	News	VANILA::LINCOLN	The sun has got his hat on	`Fri Apr 27 1990 13:25`	13
	Tommorrow's World had a small article on this yeaterday. Main point of interest was that the GM Impact car uses AC drive motors driven by an inverter from the DC battery supply. Although they didn't actually say so it can be assumed that the output from the inverter is of variable frequency since AC motors are essentially constant speed devices normally. They claim it's a breakthrough on accout of the high efficiency obtained. The car will go into production apparently. All they need now is better batteries I reckon since it's got the performance but not the range at present. -John