Conference terri::cars_uk

    Re: .18
    
    Perhaps they've just found a quicker way to get to work :-)
    
    Jeff.

    And, even worse, all those vicious farmers hoarding tons of straw,
    then piling it up onto tractors like the leaning tower of Pisa,
    then waiting for the rush-hour before sending "Old Tom" the deaf
    and blind tractor driver out onto the roads for some commutor-baiting!
    
    ;-)
    
    Rich (driven off his favorite hacking roads and onto the boring
    motorways, dull dull dull)

	My favorite topic, horses vs cars }->

	I hate cars! And what's more I'm going to ride one of my
	horses on the roads tonight. Insured, of course.

	And I _can_ break the speed limit, Abbey (for 'tis her name)
	can muster 40mph or so at a gallop if she's in the mood...
	luckily for you all this will be in Suffolk, where there
	are probably more horses than cars...

	Jonathan.

Re .-1 by Jonathan

>	And I _can_ break the speed limit, Abbey (for 'tis her name)
>	can muster 40mph or so at a gallop if she's in the mood...


Does anyone know if you can be done for speeding on a horse?

I would assume that speed limits only apply for vehicles but there's probably 
some old law like `riding furiously' that you can be done for.  Anybody know
the real state of the law from the horse's mouth...

Jon

RE: 247.22;

Anybody know the real state of the law from the horse's mouth?

Neigh Lad!

I'm told that you can't be done for speeding on a horse, but you can be done
for various other offenses (recklessness etc).

/. Ian .\

    I believe that someone on horseback was recently done for exceeding 
    
    the speed limit in Richmond Park. The Police said she was in full gallop 
    
    whereas the rules of the park say only a steady canter is allowed.
    
     

>	I hate cars! And what's more I'm going to ride one of my
>	horses on the roads tonight. Insured, of course.
>
>	And I _can_ break the speed limit, Abbey (for 'tis her name)
>	can muster 40mph or so at a gallop if she's in the mood...
>	luckily for you all this will be in Suffolk, where there
>	are probably more horses than cars...


	You're not seriously considering galloping on a road are you?

	You could easily end up with the horse having stress fractures, or,
	at a minimum, loosing it's footing.

	Heather

I think horses should be restricted to gaits in which they have at least three 
feet in contact with the ground (walking and standing), as at faster gaits
they apply a ground pressure of the order of 50 psi or more, which is 
indisputably non-eco-friendly and should be banned.

/. Ian .\

(A thoroughbred at full gallop has a ground pressure of ~ 100 psi and does 
substantially more damage to the soft ground of a "green lane" than any wheeled
vehicle...)

    > (A thoroughbred at full gallop has a ground pressure of ~ 100 psi and
    > does substantially more damage to the soft ground of a "green lane"
    > than any wheeled vehicle...)
    
    Perhaps they could claim ancient rights, i.e. that they were there a
    few million years before wheeled vehicles.  :-)
    
    Jeff.

you apear to be several orders of magnitude out.

Man produced wheeled vehicles (carts and chariots) within a few hundred years
of domesticating the horse. In any event the domestic horse only dates back 
about 5-6 *THOUSAND* years...

Indeed it is possible (the evidence is unclear) that man had wheeled - but man
hauled - wheeled vehicles before he domesticated the horse...

/. Ian .\

    Well, maybe eohippus didn't make such big dents ...
    
    Jeff. :-)

    If horses cause so much damage how come most green lanes have muddy
    
    ruts on either side and a nice green bit in the middle (which is just
    
    fine for horses)?

most horse riders don't gallop on muddy ground...

Have you ever compared the depth of a hoof print with the tread mark of a car
both driven over "virgin" soft ground? A walking horse and a typical car both 
indent about the same, a galloping horse about 2-3 times as much.

Cars driven fast throw up mud, but then have you never seen a galloping horse?

Most of the ruts seen on "green lanes" are caused by industrial/agricultural 
machines that either run on high pressure tyres (60-80 psi is not uncommon) or
use "spade tread" tyres actually designed to shift the soft topsoil to allow 
the tyre to grip the substrate.

A friend of mine (he's a game keeper, but he doesn't shoot people, not even
warning shots :-)) staunchly believes that un-metalled lanes should be rated 
not as "footpaths", "bridleways" and "roads" but according to the allowed ground 
pressure: 25 psi for solid, dry ground (allowing walking horses and cars as 
today on a BOAT, but effectively imposing a speed limit on horses*) 10 psi for 
damp/muddy but otherwise undamaged ground (allowing walkers but neither horses 
nor conventional cars) and less than 3 psi for boggy or damaged surfaces - this 
would ban walkers (unless they wore snow shoes :-)), horses and conventional 
cars but allow low ground pressure vehicles like the FlexTrak and Supacat used 
as estate maintenance vehicles...

/. Ian .\

* as a horse moves to a faster gait it keeps less feet on the ground at any 
one time, thus increasing the effective ground pressure

	Don't talk to me about horse's mouths.

	That bloody animal took a chunk out of my side on Sunday
	just because I was dressing a scratch on her leg. Ingrate.

	Jonathan.

	As far as the speeding goes, I believe it is against the law to
	speed on a horse, just as it is in a car or on a bicycle.

	The Richmond park case was won by the rider and *lost* by the
	police, as it was proven that the policeman concerned was not
	competent to make the distinction between a "hand canter" and
	a "full gallop". He also appeared to have some form of personal
	dislike for the rider concerned... don't know if the police are
	appealing (cue for lots or witty comments).

	Re .26, I'd never gallop my horse on hard ground, let alone a
		road... I do actually believe in looking after her.

	Re .27, who on _earth_ measures the psi of a galloping horse's
		hoof? And how? I can just see some little man in a white
		coat lying in the middle of Epsom racecourse with a pair
		of bathroom scales in his hands...

	Jonathan.

    Re: .33
    
    > * as a horse moves to a faster gait it keeps less feet on the ground at
    > any one time, thus increasing the effective ground pressure
    
    Of course, the static pressure only partly determines the depth of a
    hoofprint.  The print made by a horse galloping at full tilt would be
    deeper than that made by a horse at rest balancing on one leg.
    
    Jeff.

	� that made by a horse at rest balancing on one leg.

	Now that I'd like to see...

	Jonathan.

Re .-1

How do you know, Jeff?  When did you last see a horse at rest balancing on one 
leg?

Jon

	Ah but Quick was quicker, you ought to be more on the ball Ball.

	-John

    Re a few back ... why are tracks green down the middle and
    muddy down the edges ...
    
    From what I can remember a horse has legs at 4 corners and
    an eco-friendly ejection device centrally mounted ..
    
    m
    

    You mean the bit in the middle is better fertilized than the bits
    at the edge? - Hmmm, this is a possibility I hadn't considered.
    However the distance between the front two legs is usually about 12 to
    18 inches and nowhere near the width of the the green lane ruts.

modern tracks have two ruts (caused by tractors)

Pre-WWII tracks had three ruts, caused by the wheels of the cart and the horse
in the middle - it is one of the more irritating errors in period dramas on TV
that they show "Britain in 1900" as a sylvan paradise, but have modern country 
lanes...

/. Ian .\