Conference terri::cars_uk

    
    I have been looking at buying a secondhand espace to replace my aging
    VW camper - now that they have been around for awhile and people have
    had a chance to see what goes wrong first - can any of you espace
    owners out there give me any information on what to look for.
    
    I have had a look at a 'C' reg - engine looks oily and the charging
    light flickered once when I was driving it but otherwise it looks OK.
    
    Does anyone know how safe the plastic body is in a crash?
    
    Thanks,
    
    John
    

The plastic body isn't safe, but the chassis inside it is.  To produce the 
car, Renault had to crash test it, so it must be at least as safe as any other
mass produced car.  However, I've never talked to anyone who crashed one...

Dave

I crashed one: avoiding an oncoming car on a narrow lane I slid it into a ditch.

It tore the body open from front to rear down the passenger side, put the car 
off the road for 14 weeks whilst they got the frame jigs from Renault to 
straighten the chassis.

However despite the fact that the car was below roof level in a ditch laying 
on the side, I wasn't even pitched out of my seat belt, and once the car was 
pulled from the ditch (it took two two trucks to get it out) the car was
still driveable - technically if not legally, since the lights were gone, and
both passenger side tyres burst.

I wouldn't care for the rapair bill (good old PHH) but the car, and I, survived
the experience.

/. Ian .\

    
    I've never been in an Espace, or even looked very closely at one,
    but what would worry me would be the rear passengers safety - unless 
    I'm mistaken, there are no seatbelts, so in an accident they would be 
    thrown about, as would any loose luggage, which could result in serious
    injury.
    
    ps Ian, I saw your letter in the LRO mag, I used to think that
    magazines made up the letters, now I know differently! :-)

The rear seats have integral lap only belts.

/. Ian .\

(gee I wonder how many other DECcies read LRO? :-))

    
    To continue the LRO rathole, my brother's racer is pictured in one of
    the small boxes on the centre piccy of the Nationals - the white one,
    middle picture on the right. Reg no FFK (or is it FKK?)

    
    To continue the other rear seatbelt rathole...
    
    I have just called Renault and it costs �39.30 + VAT per seat to fit 
    lap and diagonal belts to the outermost rear seats.
    
    Still trying to decide whether to buy this one or not - I took a closer
    look at the mechanics last night - the only thing I could find wrong
    was the oil pressure guage and temp guage weren't working. A pity
    because they are good indicators on the state of the engine. Makes you
    wonder....
    

It doesn't have an oil pressure gauge per se: it has an electronic dipstick.

When you switch on the ignition the oil gauge shows oil level in the reservoir. 
As soon as you actually start the engine the illumination of the gauge goes out 
and the needle drops to zero indication.

/. Ian .\

    
    Ahhhhhhh... that's what it was doing! The guy selling it said it was an
    oil pressure gauge - I just assumed it was broken! He obviously doesn't
    know what he's talking about. Thanks Ian that's a great help.
    
    John

    Getting back to the LRO rathole, I just recently found my very first
    issue in a small country newsagent, whilst out on a service trip. Very
    interesting, but ever-so-slightly biased, and possibly, just-a-little
    pompous. I actually did once own a LR.
    Regards, Ray

    
    Just in case any other Espace owners are interested...
    
    I have just received a recall notice from Renault for my Espace.
    Apparantly the welds holding the front wishbone locating brackets have 
    been known to weaken and crack. They want to check and reinforce them.
    
    That might alter the tracking/camber somewhat!
    
    John.
    

    Has anyone any experience of how the new shape Espace compares with the
    old shape Espace they replaced about two years ago?
    
    I got some glossies on this beast over the weekend. Apart from the
    normal higher levels of spec, I did notice that (probably due to the
    Cat) performance is down on the old models e.g. 0-60 up to 13 secs,
    36 mpg @56 mph, 28mpg @70 mph.
    
    Thanks,
    Angus

    .19�    Has anyone any experience of how the new shape Espace compares with the
    .19�    old shape Espace they replaced about two years ago?
    
    I've driven one for about 200km recently. The one thing I did not like
    is driver's seat. I ended up with terrible pain in my back.
    
    .19�    I got some glossies on this beast over the weekend. Apart from the
    .19�    normal higher levels of spec, I did notice that (probably due to the
    .19�    Cat) performance is down on the old models e.g. 0-60 up to 13 secs,
    .19�    36 mpg @56 mph, 28mpg @70 mph.
    
    Comfort has improved. The new version is quieter than old one BUT it is
    heavier, which explains your observations above. For a car of this size
    acceleration and speed are still OK.

>    I've driven one for about 200km recently. The one thing I did not like
>    is driver's seat. I ended up with terrible pain in my back.
    
    What was causing the pain in your back? Was it the design of the seat?
    
    On a different tack. Can someone post some specifications for the
    diesel version of the Espace e.g. 0-60, fuel consumption. Peter are you 
    reading this?
    
    I phoned up a local Renault dealer. A UK diesel version is due to be
    built in March. Delivery expected some time at end of March. He was
    able to tell me it has a turbo charged 2.1 Litre (bummer) engine and the
    first models will essentially be RTs. The price is �17595 inclusive of
    VAT. He mentioned a additional �490 key in hand charge i.e.number
    plates, petrol, insurance, etc.
    
    I guess Renault are hoping (or may be they know) that Lawson will
    introduce the new car charges this next budget.
    
    Angus 

	In case you haven't..

	Lawson stepped down as Maggie didn't agree with him. So, she appointed
	this grey chap called Major.  Finally there was a big falling out and 
	Maggie got ousted.  Major now became Prime Minister and appointed one 
	Norman Lamont (Lament to his enemies). Oh and they won the election 
	last May...

	Dave

    I knew the g*t's name began with L but I forgot which one it was. Must
    be nearly home time.
    
    Maggie? Isn't that the dear sweet silver haired old lady who ruled the
    country? Or am I confusing her with the one who's little home in the
    country just caught fire.
    
    Angus

	Maggie was more steel haired than silver, she wasn't the queen
	but she thought she was...

	...now back to Renault Espaces

	Is the new vehicle heavier to reduce roll on corners?  Plus
	how does the bodywork fare after 2-3 years?  I presume that it's
	a painted gell coat (GRP).

	Dave

    .21� What was causing the pain in your back? Was it the design of the seat?
    
    It was the relative position of the seat vs pedals and steering wheel. 
    I tried the whole range of possible seat adjustments with no better
    result. Maybe the Espace is designed correctly and I'm not ... 

On Saturday 13 Feb my family and I had a test drive of a RT Turbo Dsl. One
of the first on the road I would think. It had 50 miles showing. 

First impressions were excellent. The driving position whilst not the best  
was ok and certainly an improvement over the old model. 
                       
The garage Wheelers at Newbury, well they had the car, but no specs. It's 
thought to be 2068cc and they had no idea as to origins or power output, mpg 
or performance figures. Anyone care to stab a guess at any of these questions? 

Although it is quite large and had a small amount of mileage under its
belt, the impression I got was a smooth, quite, quick and a comfortable ride 
that lasted about 20 miles.
                                                            
We haggled over the money and I bought it at a saving of approx �550 off 
the discounted price. Typically the discount these days seems to be half the 
dealer margin which is around 5%. I also got the tailored Renault mats thrown
in and finance at 5.9%APR over three years.

One snag is how does one get a quote from an insurance company if the
ABI  hav'nt rated it yet? I had one quote but told them to p**s off - �768.
Finally got a quote for �484 through Orion. I'll hopfully have more choice
next year.

We picked it up a week later and after a weekend driving of about 200 miles
the first impressions are brilliant.

I first filled it up on last Saturday and reckon on 35mpg for the first tank.
This holds 17 gallons/77litres. This might be out by a small amount due to 
the fact the tank was'nt quite full when we picked it up.

I'll write more after the first service which can occur between 700 and 2,000
miles. My initial intention is to delay it until about 1500 miles. Anybody 
have a alternate view on this?

Dave

    chaps,
    
    Dave might now have one of the most recent of espaces, but I must have
    one of the orginals (sigh).
    
    I need to get the dashboard out to remove the heater. In this case the
    dashboard is the flat tray that extends to windscreen (not just the
    front panels)
    
    The problem is that having removed everything at the passenger end, it
    still seems to be firmly fixed under the windscreen. From under the
    bonnet it looks like it would be a strip out bodywork panels to remove
    any forward screws.
    
    I have a basic workshop manual that says something like 'strip the
    interior of the car and then lift out the dashboard' but this doesn't
    seem to work.
    
    Does anyone have a decent manual for this or better still, experience
    of doing it?
    
    thanks for the thousands of replies that I now await.
    
    peter
    
    PS, I'll post the diesel performance figures tomorow.

    Dave,
    
    Figures courtesy of 'L'autombile'
    
    Renault RN/RT/RXE 2.1 dT
    
    Engine		4 cyl in-line
    Cylinder size 	2068cc (86x89)
    Power		88ch DIN @ 4250 rpm
    Torque		18.8 mkg @ 200 rpm
    Compression ratio	21.0 to 1
    Power/weight	15.3 kg/ch
    Max speed		160 kph
    0-100 kph		15.0 secs
    consumption		5.6l/100km @90km/h
    			7.9l/100km @120km/h
    			8.3l/100km urban cycle
    Drag factor (cx)	0.32
    weight		1350 kg
    
    I'm afraid you'll have to do your own translations into real numbers
    
    Peter 
    

Peter

Thanks for those numbers. I take a copy to Wheelers on Saturday when I 
pick up the floor mats. They might be interested.

Regards
Dave

    Using 1 metre = 1.094 yds and 1 litre = .220 gallons and 100Km = 62 miles
    I get
    
    Max speed		99.4 mph
    0-62 mph		15.0 secs
    consumption		50 miles/gall  @56mph
    			35 miles/gall  @74.5 mph
    			34 miles/gall  urban cycle
    
    Angus
    

re:.28

Derek

I just spoke to Dick this lunchtime.

Looks like he's brought a 2000-1 Quadra :-)

Dave

    I'll have been driving the latest model for the last year and i am very
    pleased with it.
    I have mine with a luggage deck in the back and only 5 chairs including
    de front two.
    I'am driving the petrol version RT 2.2i and drove it for approxemently
    40k kilometers nearly problem free. The first problem occurred last
    week the internals of one of the silencers in the exhaust pipe came
    lose and makes now a terrible noise but my dealer ordered a newone
    and wil replaced the old one under warranty.
    Ther are a vieuw remarks and those or the seat behind the stearing
    wheel, being 1 meter ninety tall, isn't quiet room innuf for my legs.
    I'am looking into this problem by replacing the wheel with a smaller
    one, but couldn't find one that fits at the moment. Still looking for
    one if somebody has an option for this problem i'll be very interested.
    An other thing is de seat itself it's rather small, it could be a
    little higher and the part where you really sit on could be a little
    longer.
    Overal the car is nice to drive and handles very easy. The available
    space inside is very useful for work and hobby purpusses.
    The feul consumption is good considered the size of the car, it does
    about 10 km on a liter or 10 liters to 100 km i don't know how to
    convered this to miles anf gallons or what ever.
    An other very possitive point is that it handles very easy an trailer
    without raising the feul consumption a lot.
    The maintenance of the car or rather good priced if you look at the
    price of the car.
    An other simmilar car what is very popular at the moment in Holland is
    the American Chrysler Voager they have sold a lot of those in Holland
    because it's much cheaper to buy, to maintain it's a little more
    expencive then the Renault. 
    
    
    Regards Sieds Eitens
    	    Digital Service Holland

	I think that they're a good shape for getting people into, but
	a bad one for moving through air.  Really, how much power is ok
	is up to the individual (otherwise why would people drive 2cv?).
	I suggest you test drive one.

	Dave

    Keith,
    
    I have an original (1977) GTS. It's the 2 litre without even injection.
    
    I cruise it at 140kph (c 85mph) and it has no problems doing this.
    Around town/country roads it goes fine, but is not a hot hatch!
    
    Cornering is impressive to me, provided that you bear in mind that it
    is a people/setee/mountain bike carrier. Ride is better than most
    french cars. 
    
    Fuel consumption is heavy around town (expect 20mpg = not very much)
    and much better on a run. The aerodynamic bit must do something as when
    you drive at speed through rain, the windscreen stays dry.
    
    Changing the heater is a bugger and the wheeltrims keep falling off!
    
    I've not found anyone who has owned one and been disappointed with it.
    
    If you need the convenience get one of these, if you need the fun get
    a TVR.
    
    Peter

    I have a 1990 2000-1 Injection Quadra - it's the series II, old shape.
    The ride is good, and I find it really enjoyable cruising on the 
    autostrada/autoroute, with reasonable peformance and fuel consumption.
    Top speed is only 170kph for the Quadra, yet 140-150 is a good cruising
    spped.
    
    Regarding comments about the driving position - I have problems with my
    back, yet have no discomfort on long-ish journeys (say from Valbonne to 
    Switzerland (Chur or Neuchatel which is 4hrs plus).
    
    The only problems I've had are the result of somebody trying to steal
    it.
    
    Maintenance costs seem ok, although I'm comparing with Alfa prices.
    Ken

    Keith,
    
    I don't know, but I thought there was only one carb version. As far as
    i know, the 'E' versions are injected and have a couple of horses more,
    but not a great deal.
    
    Anyway, I'm sure mine is down on the hp due to too many kilometers and
    too little servicing (previous owners of course).
    
    Peter
    
    

    re. performance & fuel consumption
    
    The original Espace was (one of) the lightest 'monospace' cars on the
    market. As noted above, acceleration and cornering were pretty good.
    Version II Espace got heavier but still is much lighter than say the
    Chrysler Voyager or the Toyota Previa.
    
    The Espace although sold under the Renault name is in fact a Matra
    design. Matra's core business is missiles, rockets, satellites ... so
    they know what weight and performance to weight ratio means ...

    re .35 where it was stated that the espace has the aerodynamic
    qualities of a brick....
    
    If I recall, the CoD factor is .32, which for a large vehicle is pretty
    damned inpressive.  Given all the hype about the Audi 100's .30 Drag
    factor at its time of release, Im sure you can appreciate that .32 is
    impressive.
    
    What annoys me is that at the time my lease expired for my old car (dec
    92), no Renault dealers could tell me when a Diesel version would be
    available...I was told Summer 93, and couldnt wait that long.
    
    Anyone know of a way of swapping cars, part way through a lease period
    ?????
    
    Cheers
    paul

    The drag factor is drag proportional to frontal area.  It's actually
    easier to get a good Cd with a bigger vehicle...
    
    Richard
    

    .42�    The drag factor is drag proportional to frontal area.  It's actually
    
    The French version is:
    
    Cx		=	Drag coefficient, no dimension (depends on shape)
    S		= 	Frontal Area, in sq m
    
    SCx		=	Drag coeff x Frontal Area, in sq m
    
    I guess SCx is what you call Drag Factor. Right ?

    Sound like the same thing.  If you have Audi 100's in Geneva 8*),
    that's what's printed on the rear quarter light...
    
    Richard
    

    Re last couple.
    
    Im almost certain that the Cd factor stated in car brochures etc is the
    Aerodynamic properties or the total vehicle shape, regardless of x-sect
    area.  As I recall Audi made a big deal about the flush fitting windows
    helping greatly in achieving the .3 value, while admitting that the
    front of the car wasnt particularly aerodynamic.
    
    Now that i dont subscribe to Aerodynamics Monthly ( :-) ),I would need to
    check with Aerodynamic contacts in Aerospace to confirm for sure.
    
    Didnt Renault make a big thing about the fact that Matra designed the
    Espace in the wind tunnel ie designed for good aerodynamic properties
    ??
    
    Cheers
    Paul 

    My understanding is that the Cd describes how efficiently the vehicle
    is streamlined.
    
    For instance, contrast the ideal drag-reducing shape (a teardrop) with
    a flat plate.  The frontal area is the same, but the drag for the flat 
    plate is much higher. So if you, say, divide the amount of drag by the
    frontal area, you get a higher resultant for the flat plate.
    
    Now suppose that you substitute a smaller flat plate that has a drag
    force equal to the teardrop.  If you divide drag by area for this
    plate, the resultant should be the same as for the larger plate.
    
    Drag-reducing enhancements that don't reduce the frontal area will
    reduce the Cd figure.  As will, for the cynical amongst us, increases
    in frontal area that don't increase drag...
    
    Richard
    

    Does anybody have a feel for what price a dealer should ask for a second
    hand, 3 year old, H-reg, old body style TXE Espace with 38,000 on the  
    clock and in good nick?
    
    Angus

	'The motor trade guide to used car prices', June edition says...

	1st class	11,180
	Good/Aveerage	10,455
	Below average	 7,730	
	Trade in	 9,680

P.