Conference 7.286::home_work

Well, I've checked the entire directory, and don't see anything related 
to SAUNAS. Ideally, I would like to build a suana in the basement of the 
place I'm renting, then dismantle it and move it to the place I'm 
building later, with minimum disruption / wasted material. Suggestions 
for design, materials, sources (so. NH), amount/type of insulation, 
heaters, dos/don'ts, etc. will all be appreciated! 

Best sauna I've been in was a wet sauna, approx 30 x 30 ft, with 
bleachers, and fired by a woodstove. Serious body-baking done there!

                               Thanks all,
                               ken

Question on Best Whirlpools?
    
    
    Does anyone know anything about Whirlpools?  I'm going out to buy
    one this afternoon and I'd like some input.
    
    Andrea
    

>    Does anyone know anything about Whirlpools?  

Do you mean "Whirlpool"  the brand-name of an appliance or "whirlpool", 
the high pressure water jets found in hot tubs and so on?

					>>>==>PStJTT

    I mean Whirlpool as in "tubs".  Sorry for the confusion!
    

	Underneath the spa, I have a crawl space (like a short basement)
	so that the spa can sit below the floor level.  The building
	inspector says I need to ventilate that area so it won't build up
	moisture.  The area is 14 x 22 ft, and I don't think I can put
	vents on both ends.  Will a vent on one end be enough?  Can I
	use a humidifier instead?  If I vent, won't that make my floor and
	spa really cold?  I suppose I could put lots of insulation in
	the floor joist and around the spa, but I still don't know how
	big a vent and if one end of the room is enough.  Can anyone help?

	thanks, ...Karen

    	Good questions. I was thiking of the same things in regard to
    an addition I'm building. But I have a compound problem. 
    	I'm building an inclosed sunroom thats at a 2nd floor level
    (realy the first floor but the basement level is abouve ground),
    and will be insulating the floor which is open underneath. In the
    FUTURE I was planning on putting a hot tub in the area under the
    sunroom and incloseing it.
    	Questions: Should I put a vapor barrier on the outside of the
    Sunroom floor (which is the ceiling of the room below) Before I
    put up the plywood to seal the floor/ceiling or should I just wait
    until I put the hot tub in then put up a vapor barrier on the ceiling?
    	Do I even have to put up a barrier in this area?
    	A friend of mine had a hot tub in his basement one year and
    the moisture running down the walls was so bad he had to take it
    out. I hate to think of this amount of moisture inbetween INTERIOR
    walls.
    
    					...Dave	
    

    Karen, to ventilate a crawl space you really need two (at least) vents
    preferably on opposite walls so that you can get some cross ventilation
    as the wind blows. Stick with the low tech solution, forget about the
    dehumitifier in the crawl space. 
    
    The crawl space is going to be cold in the winter, PERIOD, regardless
    of whether you have vents or not. You can cover the vents in the winter
    as they're primarily needed in the other three seasons. I would also
    insulate the whole floor if I were you. 
    

             Warm moist air + cold basement walls = CONDENSATION

    A spa in the basement is almost asking for trouble. I'm not suprised
    they had to remove it. Was it in a room with bare concrete walls? About
    the only way I would consider a SPA in the basement would be to build a
    tightly insulated and well venitilated room to put it in. 

    Charly

    	The basement in which the spa was placed and then removed was
    actual hafe of a two car garage under the house. It had 1 concreate
    wall, 1 insulated interior wall, and 2 unisulated walls open to
    the rest of the garage area (unheated). And all the walls had lots
    of condensation. 
    	I understand your point though. It's not the vapior barrier
    or insulation thats important as it is ventalation. But, thats a
    lot of hot, moist air to be dumping outside during the winter.
    Kind of gets expencive.
    
    				...Dave 

    Re: .4 Condensation in the cellar.
    
    Actually, for a finished room in the cellar, I think the insulation and
    vapor barrier are VERY important and especially in the SUMMER. You need
    to keep the warm humid air away from the cold concrete floor and walls. 

    I have a finished room in the cellar that is built as you would any
    above grade room. It has a raised insulated floor with poly-vapor
    barrier, stud walls with insulation and poly-vapor barrier all the way
    around. That room is cool and dry in the summer while the unfinished
    part is cooler and damp. I think the key element in that room is the
    insulation and vapor barrier keeping cold from the cement surfaces away
    from the warm air. 

    Charly

	So, sounds like basements definately need a vapor barrier, but
	what about regular rooms?  Has anyone had any problems in
	rooms other than basements?

	thanks, ...Karen

    
    	I am in the process of designing a new addition to house a dinning
    room, sauna and hot tub room with a shower. My question is, how
    do I make the whole floor of the hot tub room water proof. I am
    thinking of having a shower head in there with a drain on the floor.
    I will probably use ceramic tiles on the hole floor. Does a sheet
    of plastic go over the plywood, do I use water proof sheetrock over
    the plywood ??? or is the tile enough to keep the water from the
    sub floor ??
    
    	-Steve-
    

    
    There are many ways to waterproof a floor. Using ceramic tiles is
    just fine. You should use marine grade plywood. This is more moisture
    resistant than exterior grade. Then just apply the mastic to the
    plywood to hold the tiles. Be sure to fill any gaps, or level and
    joints so the tiles don't crack or rock. Then apply the grout as
    per the instructions on the bag. You can use silicon caulk to fill
    and cracks, or around any appliances like pipes or drains. If applied
    right this is very water tight.
    
    If you put plastic over the plywood, then you would end up gluing
    the tiles to the plastic and it would ultimately "float". The tiles
    would move and the grout would fall out in no time at all.
    
    Good luck and have fun in the hot tub
    
    JMB
    

    I'm seriously considering adding a hot-tub to my house. That is,
    remodeling an existing garage, and adding a simple enclosed deck
    at the back, to gain more usable space. I have tentatively looked
    at only one supplier of hot-tubs, for prices and dimensions, and
    accessability, weight-ratios, etc.  The most desired application
    would be to have it available year-round, subsequently locating
    it in a heated area.
    I need comments, pro and con, about DIY installation, horror
    stories, recommendations, installers,(if the task is major) and
    general stuff prior to putting down my hard earned dollars.
    The garage is not presently heated, but the gas heat in my home
    is 21 years old, and may be upgraded to a higher capacity and more
    efficient burner before I begin. I could therefore add the ductwork
    and insulation prior to the tub. I'm not sure I can afford a big
    hunk of change for this project, and would prefer to do a lot of
    DIY, and in stages. Are there any good books that you would rec-
    ommend? Has anybody completed this task in the past few years?
    Should I begin, there will be the additional cost of windows,
    sliders, insulation, subflooring and floors, so the capacity for
    this project to become humungous is obvious. I would also have 
    to dig a trench to the septic tank for drainage. (Permits?)
    As you can see, I'll take any advice at all before I commit to
    this project.   Phil Reilly at Stow, Mass.  CSTVAX::REILLY
    

    	First off, which do you want? A hot tub or a whirlpool/spa.
    
    There is a diffrence although less so now a days. A hot tub made
    popular in Calif. is usually made of redwood and is usaullly about
    4 feet deep. Most of the older ones just circulated and heated the
    water.
    
    A whirpool/spa made famous by Jacuzzi (brand name) is usually only
    about 2-3 feet deep and while the water is circulted and heated
    comes out under pressure from jets on the the side. These are the
    more common type around here and now-a-days are self-contained
    fiberglass units.
    
    	You mentioned the need for a drain. unlees for other reasons
    you don't need it for the spa. You normally don't drain it that
    often. You treat it like a swimming pool and add chemicals to keep
    the water clean. When it's time to drain just pump it out into
    the backyard.
    
    	Price: I haven't priced them lately but 2k-3k for a self-contained
    4-6 person unit sound about right.
    
    ...Dave (who wants one too, but has to finish his other3 projects
    		first)
    

    
    
    I was at B.J.'s Wholesale Club on RT6 in Johnston, Rhode Island
    this past Saturday and right inside the front door they had a hot
    tub/spa on display. 
    
    I forgot the brand name but it was a nice looking unit.
    
    $2300 +tax
    
    single unit fiberglass construction 
    pumps and filter and cover included.
    holds six adults.
    
    You must be a member to shop at B.J.'s but all you need to join
    is proof of membership in a credit union. there are other ways to
    jopin but that is the cheapest. your cost for any thing is 5% over
    WHOLESALE list. only disadvantages arethe traqvel time , (remeber
    its in R.I.) and you must buy specified amounts of a product. I.E.
    15 rolls of paper towel or three cans of shave cream. Advantages
    are you only NEED to go once every couple of months and they have
    everything from soup to nuts and clothing to garden tractors and
    and antennas to zoology books. Picture 3 spags under one roof but
    with room to move around.

    We have a master bedroom suit in our basement [accually split level
    house].  Wd put a 10 person spa in: 8' by 8' square, 4' deep.

    It works for us.  basement is baseically unheated [around 50 degrees
 `  yearround].  on coldar nights we turn on the kerosun heater.
    The unit is insulated, with an insullated cover.
    We keep water temp at 110 in the wintEr, 95 in the summer.
    
    Our neighbors havd a hot tub outsidd and use it yearround.  major
    problem [other than cost!] is ICE.  major problems here in winter.
    
    Cost of operation for us is $30/mo electricity, $20/mo chemicals.
    we enjoy it.
    btw we purchased from NAMCO, and have had good service from them.
    

    One last thing, measure the thing BEFORE you buy it! We had ours
    delivered before we found out it wouldn't fit in the house.
    I ended up cutting a hole in the side of the house 8'2 wide by 5
    foot high to get it in [this was in winter too!].
    You might say its a perment fixture in the house now!~
    
    ed
    

    We put a 5-6 person spa into the family room I have been building
    for the last while.  It is really nice for relaxing.  We got it
    from Namco while my wife was working there.  It was a shade over
    $3000 about a year and a half ago (with her discount).
    
    It isn't all that expensive to operate, but our model did require
    a 220 line of its own.  BTW, one thing to look at is that several
    models will operate at 110 or 220.  The biggest difference is that
    the 220 models heat up faster (6kw vs 1kw heater for 110v) and you
    can have multiple functions going at once; heated air, water heat,
    and jets al going at the same time.  For 110 models, you usually
    have to choose between water heat and the other functions.
    
    - Mark

    One other big thing to look at is the insulation rating 
    of the tub/spa...  I have seen several tub/spas which 
    run on 110, and have an R rating of around 60!!  They are
    generally maintained hot all the time, and thus don't need 
    a high-capacity heater.  The models that I have my eye on
    are guaranteed to not cost you nmore than $20/month to operate,
    and thats using them every day.  The other benefit of these 
    tubs is that you can jump in when you feel like it rather than
    having to plan an hour or so ahead...
    Also, the 110 circuit is cheaper although it must be on GFCI
    (at least around here, but I wouldn't do it any other way!)
              
    Kevin

    Kevin, regarding the 'guarentee' of $20/mo for operation, who is
    going to pay if it goes over?  ;-)
    One would be crazy if they were not planning on using daily.
    What did the dealers guarentee for $ on chemicals?
    Mine was 110 or 220.  I started off at 110, but rewired to 220
    to take advantage of the 6kwatt heater vs the 1.5 in the 110.
    Of course mine iss fully insulated.  real life is the $30/mo
    electric bill for it.  of course its bigger than most people
    would buy.  Its hot all the time.  the 6Kw heater allows it to run
    for a shorter time to maintain temp.
    also we empty about every 3-4 months.  the 6kw brings the temp up
    pretty fast

    
      I appreciate the help from everyone, here's some update;
    
      Dave Burkhart/  I would prefer a whirlpool spa arrangement.
    The place that gave me the initial ad material was Aquatech pools
    in Chelmsford. (home town) They have a spiffy line of pools from
    PACIFIC MARQUIS. -extra-heavy and solid fiberglas, nice colors,
    seemingly well-built, but fairly expensive. Prices start around
    $4200. that includes installation. Seating capacities are from 4
    to 10 bodies, 295 gallons to 490 gallons, all are 110 OR 220 volt
    hookups. I would want to do it myself and save a few bucks on the
    installation charges.
    Steve Caccia/  BJ's Wholesale Club? -How 'bout DEC credit union,
    would that be OK? This place sounds fascinating! I have an 83
    Nissan pickup, I wonder if I could get a tub into the back and
    tie it down securely. (?) Thanx for the tip! I'll find the place.
    ED Badger/  Outside would be nice, but I'm definitely leaning
    towards an interior set-up, for privacy and heat in the winter.
    I can fit this thing through the garage door opening, before I
    close it up with studs and a slider, so that part is OK.
    By the way, where is NAMCO? Sounds familiar, but can't recollect.
    Mark Pilant/   My brother is a master electrician, so no problem.
    I would go to 220 v. and have the 6kw heater. Service is now 110,
    but my brother and I are already planny a 220 service sometime in
    May-June, so I save a separate circuit just for the tub.
    Kevin Farlee/   Good point on insulation! even indoors, I can
    maintain heat longer with less effort on the heater. Absolutely
    yes on Ground fault Connector receptacles and wiring. Too much
    "wet" in the area to use anything else. Also on the other outlets
    in the vicinity. Better safe than sorry here.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    I'm very grateful for the input, everybody, Now, if only I can
    draw up a cost and budget plan for this, and STICK to it!. My
    problem has always been to "spend a few extra dollars for the
    quality" while I'm doing the job. I always exceed my budget by 
    200%, thus slowing everything down while I accumulate the cash
    necessary to finish. I know, I know, I'm the only guy here that
    has that problem, right?  			Phil Reilly
    

    There is a NAMCO located on route 102 in Hudson NH.

George

>> 				 I always exceed my budget by 
>>  200%, thus slowing everything down while I accumulate the cash
>>  necessary to finish. I know, I know, I'm the only guy here that
>>  has that problem, right?  			Phil Reilly
    

	'This Old House' wants YOU!   :^)

-Jim

There are "BJ's Wholesale Club" outlets closer than RI. There is one in
Salem NH and one in Medford MA. There may be others too.  I've never 
seen either of the above two require you to buy multiples of anything, 
but I haven't been there for the better part of a year, so maybe it 
changed.  All you have to do to get a membership card is show your DEC 
badge and fill out a form.
					>>>==>PStJTT

I installed a Sonoma hot tub (5' in diameter, 4' deep) outside on my deck in
Vermont. Had an electrician hook up the 220 connection and did everything else
myself. Cost was about 4k and $40/month in heating costs. Chemicals are quite
cheap since I use an aquazone ozone generator instead of clorine/bromine.

This tub is designed for outdoor use and has r45 sides and r23 top.

Dan "who is still skiing because of his hot tub" Buckley

 �   < Note 2077.11 by POWDAH::BUCKLEY "ski fast,take chances,die young" >
 �   I installed a Sonoma hot tub (5' in diameter, 4' deep) outside on my deck..

    Two questions:
    
    1) How did you determine that the load carrying ability of your deck
    was sufficient?  (I'm thinking about doing the same thing)
    
    2) Where did you buy the tub (looking for more recommendations..)
    
    Thanks, 
      __Rich
               

    re:  hot tubs on decks.
    
    Well, since there was no reply for .-1, does anyone out there have
    experience with putting heavy objects on decks?  What are typical
    safe loading parameters?  I suppose that "typical" doesn't exist,
    but I'm interested in any thoughts.
    
    Thanks,
    __Rich

    	Ah, yes. the old live load vs dead load paramaters. I have a
    book that talks about deck loads and beam size and joist spacing
    at home. I'll bring it in tomorrow if I remember and enter the info
    here.
    
    	I'll need to know the weight of the tub fully loaded with
    water and people and how much more weight will be on the deck
    ie LIVE people and DEAD furniture.
    
    			...Dave
    

        
>    	I'll need to know the weight of the tub fully loaded with
>    water and people and how much more weight will be on the deck
>    ie LIVE people and DEAD furniture.
    
 	I suppose 1500 lbs. is close.  Anyone with a tub know it's
    weight (filled)?
    
    __R

    Assuming a circular tub:
    
    		w = pi * r**2 * h * 62.4
    
    	where:
    
    		w  = weight in lbs
    		pi = 3.14159265 (give or take :-)
    		r  = radius of the tub
    		h  = height (or depth) of water (no people in the tub)
    		62.4 = density of fresh water in lbs/cu ft
    		       (64.2 if you use sea water :-)
    
    		*all dimensions are in feet
    
    	This is just the weight of the water.  You will need to add the
    	weight of the tub, hardware, people, etc.
    
    Stan

    If you know the capacity in gallons.
    
    weight (lbs) = gallons * 8.3           is easier

    >     weight (lbs) = gallons * 8.3         
    
    	Yes, and there are about 231 in� in a gallon, fyi.
    
    What I didn't know was the capacity of typical hot tubs and their
    dry weight.
    
    A little research has shown that they run approximately 1500-3000
    lbs. depending upon size.  Add something for occupants and rubber
    duckies.
    
    I'm still interested in loading abilities of decks.
    
    N.B.
    
    If you want specifics, I think my deck has 2x10 joists, 16" o.c.
    The side away from the house is supported by alternating 6x6's
    and 8x8's.  I don't recall the spacing - I can easily measure it
    if someone has the right info.
    
    Thanks,
    
    __Rich

    	Sorry, I'm taking so long for the laoding info but I lent my
    book out to someone and I'm still waiting for them to return it.
    I reminded them again!!!
    
    	Some one else must have one of those charts that talk about
    spans and dimentional lumber sizes and grades and weight. No?
    
    			...Dave
    

One of the things you don't mention is what distance the joists are spanning.
But without knowing anything about specifics, I seriously doubt that it would
be a good idea to plop a 1-ton+ point load on any deck - people just don't
overbuild THAT much.  

Paul

    Hi. MY neighbor has a hot tub on his builder-designed deck, complete
    with 2X8 joists. I chuckle when I see the sag in it! We've got to
    be talking 4 inches at least! That's with 16 inches on center. 
    
    Mike

    One way I have seen used to minimize sag is to position a 4x4 (or
    6x6) post under each corner of the 'tub.  It would rest on a footing
    at ground level, and attach to a joist directly under the 'tub.
    This would mean, in most cases, that the actual span would be under
    8'.  You could set them in (from the parimiter of th 'tub, and reduce
    the span even further).
    
    I just looked up some numbers in a little table I have here at work,
    and for an 8' span (assuming a 40 lb/sq. ft. load), you could do
    with a 2x6,  a 10' span would require a 2x8, and a 13' would need
    a 2x10.  (Note that these numbers are not taken from the latest
    building code books.)  (BTW, these assume Douglas Fir or Southern
    Yellow pine.  For Spruce and most pine, take a foot off the length
    of the span.)
    
    - Mark

    	re .23
    
    	Are those figures for 16 inches on center?  They sound about
    right. Now consider that a hot tub with people is in the range of
    90-130 lb/ft� you would at least cut those spans in half. The other
    alternative would be to double up the joists thus making them 8"
    on center. 
    
    	Dave...   Still_waiting_for_return_of_my_books
    
    

    Remember: Water weighs 62.4 lbs/cu ft.  That means if you have 3'
    depth of water in the tub you are talking about 180+ lbs/sq ft 
    (excludes weight of tub etc.) over the area of the tub.  This is 
    a significant load.  4x4 supports directly under the tub sound 
    like a good idea to me.
    
    Stan

When estimating the load for a tub, you can just use the weight of the tub's
capacity *full* (to the brim).  People are basically the same displacement as
water, and I'd bet the tub (mostly plastic or wood) does the same.

Does anybody know anything more on this "aquazone" stuff?  I'm all for less
chemicals in my soak! 

Jim.

    Portable spas are available with the following power systems:
    
    A)  110 volt.  Requires separate 110 volt 20 amp circuit.  Only
        motor or heater can operate at a time.  Heats two degrees
        Fahrenheit per hour.
    
    B)  220 volt.  requires separate, hardwired 220 volt 50 amp
        circuit.  Both motor and heater can operate at the same time.
        Heats six degrees Fahrenheit per hour.
    
    C)  110 volt plus gas.  Needs 110 volt 20 amp circuit plus
        natural gas.  Heats much faster than 110 or 220.
    
    Already have 110 volt line installed.  Cost $120 to run it 60' to spa
    location.  Would cost $220 to replace the line with 220 volts. 
    Cost to upgrade to gas is $395 plus gas plumbing installation.
    House already has gas service.  Gas line must be run about 40'
    to get to spa location.
    
    Have not taken delivery of spa yet.
    
    My uncle says that when you turn on the motor of this type of
    spa the ambient air is drawn in and in 5-8 minutes flat drops
    the temperature down 10 degrees Fahrenheit and then I will be
    cold and unhappy.
    
    Has anyone had any experience with portable spas?  Is 110V power
    sufficient, or do I have to go with 220V or even gas?  How
    much energy costs savings might I achieve using gas instead of
    electric?  Does the spa cool down so quickly like my uncle says?
    

    you didn't say what size the spa was.
    
    My findings:  I have a 10 person 700 gal spa.  it could go 110 or
    220.
    I couldn't get an electrican to wire me for 220, but he did at 110/20
    amp circuit.  After filling, it took two days for spa to come up
    to temperature.
    
    BTW at this point I'm confussed.  In order to heat the water, mine
    has to circulate it.  motor and heater work at same time.
    
    I wired 220 into spa from box.  NOT HARD TO DO IF I CAN DO IT!
    Spa heats up in 5 hours from fill.  I also get one other option,
    that of heated air.  with 110, the air bubbles are cold.  with 220,
    the air heater kicks in and heats the air another 20 deg.
    I like the 220 system better.  total cost 50$ in parts.
    I paid the electriac $200 for the 110/20 system.
    DYI!
    
    as far as cooling down , it could be open for an hour and not cool
    down 2 deg.
    
    other:  I recently went from chemicals bought at NAMCO, bromine,
    to a chemical system sold by Stove and Spa near Pheasent lane
    MALL IN NASHUA.  Its cut my chemical bills in half, and does a lot
    better job.
    
    
ed
    

    I will be re-doing my outside deck ad in one corner I plan to put
    a "SPA"..the area will be 8'x 8'. This should be enough room since
    most of the SPA's I've looked at fall roughly around 7' square.
      I will have a frame 8'x8' of either redwood or PT 2'x6', my ques-
    tion is should I pour in the frame concrete or can I get away with
    placing doubled joists at 16" apart and place six posts on concrete
    footings  under the joists, then deck the top.
      The deck will basically be on ground level so the posts will be
    as long as needed to go below frost line (2') here in Colorado,
    or can I pour concrete supports and place the post on top of concrete
    
         |                             |
         |                             |= SPA
         |                             |
     ________________________________________
    |________________________________________|= Deck
          | |           | |             | | 
          | |           | |             | |= 4x4 posts
         -----         -----           -----
        |     |       |     |         |     | = concrete
    *******************************************
        |     |       |     |         |     |
        |     |       |     |         |     |
    
    
    Any help, or ideas?    
    

If the moderator wants to move this I believe the topic has been discussed 
elsewhere, but I believe this design is potentially dangerous, so I won't 
wait.
<      I will have a frame 8'x8' of either redwood or PT 2'x6', my ques-
<    tion is should I pour in the frame concrete or can I get away with
<    placing doubled joists at 16" apart and place six posts on concrete
<    footings  under the joists, then deck the top.
    
	There are many obvious problems, PLEASE GET PROFESSIONAL HELP.

	1)  SPAs are heavy.  A 7 ft diameter hot tub with 2 ft of water
	would 5120 lbs.  That would amount to 80lbs/sq-ft extrodinary load,
	plus 40 lbs/sq-ft ordinary load for a total of 120 lbs/sq-ft.
	2x6 @16" O.C. construction and 4X4 post will not support this.

	2)  You can not arbitrarily decide to use PT or redwood for support.
	Redwood can only support about 75% of the load that PT SYP can for 
	commonly available Redwood and more expensive.  Structural Grade 
	Redwood is big big bucks.  Your best bet is PT SYP with Redwood facing.

	3)  The design does not have any beams running perpendicular to 
	the joists.  The entire perpendicular load is being carried by the 
	band joists.  

	4)  I would advise, but there is no requirement to have a post 
	directly under the center of the SPA.  This adds a margin of safety 
	because the weight of the water is not uniformly distributed across 
	the entire deck.  

	Brian

        You mentioned that your deck is near ground level.  Have you
    considered recessing your new SPA into the deck?  My neighbor did
    just that and it turned out great.  
    
    
        It looks somthing like this:
    
    
    
    
                  ____________________________________
                  |                                  |
     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~|             SPA                  |~~~~~~~~~~~ 
                  |                                  |
                  |                                  |
                  |                                  |
                  |                                  |
                  |                                  |
    ***********==========================================**********
   
    KEY 
    
    ~~~~ equals top of deck
   
    **** equals ground
    
    ==== eguals concrete pad

    
        His SPA only stick up about 8" above the deck surface.  All
    of the weight is on the concrete pad and the deck was then built
    around the SPA.  This would eliminate the worry of structual strength
    and you can stick to the red wood which looks the best.
    
        Good luck!!!!
    
    Regards,
    jar
    

<	1)  SPAs are heavy.  A 7 ft diameter hot tub with 2 ft of water
<	would 5120 lbs.  That would amount to 80lbs/sq-ft extrodinary load,
<	plus 40 lbs/sq-ft ordinary load for a total of 120 lbs/sq-ft.
<	2x6 @16" O.C. construction and 4X4 post will not support this.

	According to Sunset Books, a spa could realistically weigh 300lbs/sq-ft.
	To calculate the load on the deck, add the weight of the empty spa, 
	the weight of the water for an idle spa(@64lb/sq-ft or 8.56lbs/gal),
	the weight for the maximum number of people(@178lbs/person), the 
	weight of any support equipment on the deck, and the weight of the 
	structure at 20lbs/ft-sq.  For simplicity and safety divide this by 
	the surface area of the base of the spa.  This will give the load that 
	the deck must support.  Below is a table, which I had my computer 
	generate last night, of joist and beam length that should be helpful. 

	Joist and Beams from #2 PT SYP

		150lbs/ft-sq	200lbs/ft-sq	250lbs/ft-sq	300lbs/ft-sq
____________________________________________________________________________
	     |
Joist Length |
	     |
2x6 @ 16 O.C.|	5.40 ft		4.65		4.15		3.80
2x6 @ 12 O.C.|	6.20		5.35		4.80		4.35
2x8 @ 16 O.C.|	7.35		6.35		5.70		5.15
2x8 @ 12 O.C.|	8.55		7.40		6.65		6.05
	     |
Beam Span    |
Spacing= 4ft |
	     |
3-2x6	     |	5.40		4.65		4.15		3.80
3-2x8	     |	7.35		6.35		5.70		5.20
1-4x6	     |	4.60		4.00		3.60		3.25
2-2x8	     |	6.00		5.20		4.65		4.25

	For your particular deck, it looks like 9 piers in a 3x3 grid 
	spaced 4 ft apart should work well.  In general, when designing 
	a deck with a small spa on a large deck, treat the design as 
	two decks, a superstructure for the spa and a regular deck for the 
	rest.  Make sure any common beams can handle the combined weight.
	For decks with three or more parallel beams this is not a problem.

	Some other hints.  The hot tub I helped install in Seattle had a 
	support structure running in one direction.  This support structure
	should be perpendicular to the joist when installed, and blocking can 
	be added between the joists under the supports to add additional 
	support.  Doubling the joist under the center of the spa should 
	make the deck more rigid.  Use 2x decking not 5/4, if you deck under
	the spa.  You do not have deck under the spa, but additional blocking
	maybe necessary.  Minimize height of wood post, and reinforce the 
	concrete piers.


	Brian(I think its time for a vacation.  I'm starting to reply to my 
	own notes.)

    First I would liketo thank you for information given.  What I think
    I will do is probably pour a base of concrete for the SPA. I plan
    about 5" of concrete in a form 8'x8' of 2"x6"x8..hopefully that
    should sovle my problems of weight...thanks again..

    This looks like the best place to add this....
    
    My house was purchased with an unfinished upstairs bathroom.  One
    of my dreams has been to install a whirlpool tub, but I had
    concluded (correctly) that I just didn't have the space or the
    money for a traditional model.
    
    The other day, while browsing through a Channel store, I happened
    upon a line of whirlpool tubs by NoviAmerican called "Bubble Tub
    Premium".  These are self-contained whirlpool tubs designed to
    fit into "normal" bathrooms.  The smallest model is a drop-in
    replacement for a 5' bathtub.  The middle model is oval-shaped -
    still 60 inches, but 10 inches wider (42") than the small model.
    The largest is 72x36, and supposedly seats two.
    
    I can obviously use the smallest model, but some rough calculations
    show the largest one will possibly fit, if I rearrange things a
    bit.  (The oval pool won't fit.)
    
    The tubs are provided pre-plumbed and have 1/2 horsepower motors.
    There is no integral heater.
    
    Does anyone have experience with these tubs or anything similar?
    Comments on things to look for or to watch out for?  Places to
    go (Southern NH preferable) for good prices?  I plan on installing
    it myself (I have built a bathroom before).
    
    I don't have prices on the larger models - Channel wanted something
    like $650 for the smallest.
    
    				Steve

    If I remember, those are acrylic or fiberglass.
    
    When we re-did a bathroom, I talked to the plumber about putting one
    in.  He did not feel it would take the abuse of 2 teenagers - and
    that it would scratch and become dull/dirty easily.
    
    His suggestion was that the old style cast-iron, porcelain tub was
    the most durable.  The whirlpools of that material are Kohler, American
    Standard and Jacuzzi and were in the $1200 an up range.
    
    We went with the standard tub.
    
    Choice of material would depend on use and personal preference.
    
    	-Barry-
    

    The tubs in question are "acrylic/ABS".  To me, that's just fine.
    I'm hoping to not spend much more than $1000 on the tub.
    
    			Steve

    My house came with the model you're describing.  It is the standard
    tub size and material.  I've used it once in the year I've had it.
    Previously (last house) had a large 80 gallon job that we used 
    practically every week.
    
    The first problem we found with the small one was that you need
    shower doors to use it, else you'll spray water all over the place.
    The real problem is that you just don't fit very comfortably in
    these things.  It's either legs in, rest out; or rest in legs up!
    You also get tired of the jets pounding on your sides when its
    you're back that wants the pounding, ever try to lay on your
    side in a standard tub?
    
    

    Re: .6
    
    Exactly why I want to install the large (70 gallon) model....
    
    				Steve

    The large one I had was great.  I had a seperate shower stall in
    the bath to go with it since the tub was a bit deep and you had to
    climb into it.  I can't think of anything I didn't like about it;
    except every time I used it my two kids wanted to come in the "pool"
    too!

Our friends in San Raphael, Ca has a fiberglas hottub. It has
ceramic tile trim around the edge that has come loose. the bug
question is, what adhesive will glue this stuff back? I suggested
weldwood contact cement (green stuff that's industrial, all
purpose glue that stays plyable). It held for about a week.

Does any one know what else?

cal

    It can depend on the bottom of the tile !!! If the tile is flat
    on the bottom then there is a glue made that is brown like contact
    cemet but made for tile. I don't have the name handy but I have
    a buckey of it at home that I could get the name off If you want
    iot. Now if the tile has little nubs on the bottom then like most
    of the large Itailian tiles do then you need to use a powder based
    mixed that is sometimes referred to as a mud. Eithe way the area
    where the tile is being glued must be dry for a good period of
    time and free of any excess, or old glue or grout. There is a place
    in Woburn Mass. called Fitzgeralds that sells tiles, tools, and
    grout. They could also tell you the name of the two glues I listed
    above. 
    
           Good Luck

    Try white ceramic tile mastic or GE II silicone caulk.  

I don't  know  if  this  is  the audience that would know the answer to this
question. If someone knows of a better place to look, please let me know.

I have  a  hot  tub which does not use chlorine to control bacteria. It has a
"ozonator".  This  is  a  gadget that generates ozone and injects it into the
water.  As  I  understand  it,  organic  material is quickly oxidized by the
ozone.  Ozone  therefor  plays  the  same  role  as chlorine, but without the
chemical smell/irritation/etc.

My question  is this. What does ozone do to/for the human in the tub? When I
remove  the  tub cover I get an initial blast of ozone then infrequent whiffs
during use.

Thanks, in advance, for the help. Jim...
    

    
    Eeyah, the laser printers our group makes have restrictions on the
    amount of ozone they release.  I can't imagine that blastes of ozone
    are very good for you.  However, drinking water purified with ozone 
    is much better for you than water purified with chlorine, since
    some of the molecules formed in chlorinated water are carcinogens.
    A few years ago the city of Newport, Rhode Island began to sterilize
    public drinking water with ozone to reduce the chlorine content
    of the water.
                 
    -tm
    

	From Indoor Air Quality (Beat Meyer, Addison-Wesley, 1983)

	7.2.6 OZONE

		Ozone (O3) is a reactive gas that is fully miscible
	with air.  Outdoors it is produced by solar irradiation of
	polluted air.  Indoors ozone is produced by uV light fixtures
	and by electrostatic office copying machines.  Although ozone
	is beneficial as a sterilizing agent against indoor fungi,
	bacteria, and viruses, even at low concentrations it irritates
	the lung and eye tissue and it is responsible for photochemical
	smog.  Ozone occurs jointly with peroxyacetyl nitrate (PAN)
	and is an indicator of other air pollutants (Dmitriev et al.,
	1979).  The EPA has published an extensive review of research
	on ozone done before 1971.
		Shair and Heitner (1974) showed that indoor ozone in
	Los Angeles is largely due to outdoor sources.  Accordingly,
	the diurnal concentration follows the outdoor concentration
	with a time lag of 1 - 3 hr., and increases from 7 a.m. until
	noon.  It drops to the night level around 9 p.m.  The
	concentration range is between 0.1 and 0.3 ppm, depending
	on the weather conditions.  Average values measured in 12 areas
	of Los Angeles ranged from 1 to 7 ppb in 1979 (Sullivan, 1979).
	Indoor O3 levels are 50% or more below ambient levels because
	O3 reacts rapidly indoors or decomposes by surface catalysis
	on aluminum, steel, and other building materials.  The rate
	of decomposition of ozone increases fivefold when the air
	humidity increases from 5 to 55%.  At 5% RH the half-life is
	10 hours; at 85% RH it is 10 minutes (Shair, 1974).  Shair
	and Heitner (1974) gave catalysis rates for various materials
	and found wool and cotton three times more effective than
	plywood and nylon, and 20 times more effective than metals
	or grass.  However, metal oxides are also effective.
		Ozone production by photocopying machines is
	significant.  A freshly serviced machine produces about
	4ug/copy.  After extended use the production can increase
	to up to 131 ug/copy (Allen, et al., 1978) with an average
	of about 40 ug/copy (Selway et al., 1980).  This results in
	breathing-level ozone concentrations of about 4 - 300 ug/m3
	for the operator.  There seems to be a significant trend
	between different makes and models.
		If the U.S. Department of Energy pursues a recent
	proposal for promoting mercury-enhanced indoor light bulbs
	that can be mounted in traditional sockets, indoor ozone
	levels would increase dramatically.  This might stamp out
	indoor microbes, but could cause distress to asthmatics
	and those with sensitive eyes.  Current indoor and outdoor
	O3 levels for an energy-efficient research home in Iowa
	are shown in Figure 7.10.  (See Figure 1.)

		Ozone levels in automobiles are equivalent to
	ambient levels.  Ozone occurs simultaneously with nitric
	oxide and carbon monoxide and forms a synergistic
	mixture.  Hospitals have been studied by Allen (1981).
		A special situation exists in aircraft because
	jumbo jets and supersonic aircraft travel at an altitude
	of 10 - 15 km, which is close to the earth's ozone layer.
	At these altitudes, ozone concentrations change regionally
	and seasonally but can reach up to 30 ppm.  Many people
	can smell ozone at such concentrations, which are sufficient
	to rapidly degrade rubber hoses and similarly sensitive
	materials.  In 1970 the FAA estimated cabin ozone levels
	to be below 0.02 ppm.  In long-distance aircraft ozone
	coincides with very low humidity; this causes irritation
	for people with contact lenses or respiratory problems
	(Higgins et al., 1979, 1980).  Ozone can be removed by
	catalytic decomposition.  This is now mandatory
	(14CFR25.832), as is the provision for nonsmoking sections
	to reduce synergism with smoking (45FR22763); see Section
	10.5.

    I would like to bring this topic back to life.
    
    Does anyone have an opinion on these brands:
    
                Jacuzzi   (Eura model)
                Jason     (Bon Jour model)
                Thermasol (Regency)

    Of course, Jacuzzi is the brand name appliance.  The one I am thinking
    of has four jets mounted in the four corners.  The Jason (which
    was started by members of the Jacuzzi family who split off) has
    six jets -- four on the sides and one on each end.
    
    I wish that I could try each one before buying it, but, I don't
    know if any place set up to do that.
    
    Roger

    There's a new type of hot tub that's been on the market for about 5
    years that you might be interested in checking out.  It is called a
    "Soft Tub"(tm) (I think it is tm'ed...).  Instead of the traditional
    acrylic tub in a box or the old redwood tub, soft tubs are made from
    semi-rigid foam covered with vinyl I think.  Instead of a heater, it
    uses the waste heat from the pump motor which is contained in a
    separate unit that connects to the tub with two pipe connections. The
    cover fits into the tub to form an air lock.
    
    Tub specs:
    
    	24" tall, 72" diameter, 6" walls and floor
    	Empty weight, 50 lbs. (that's right, fifty)
    	Capacity 220 gallons and 4 adults
    
    Pump unit specs:
    
    	24" tall, 18" diameter
    	Weight, 45 lbs.
    	110 VAC with a circuit breaker built into the plug
    
    I was a bit leary of putting 220 gallons of water in a *foam* tub,
    until the salesman stood on the rim of the tub and bounced around a
    bit.  His 180 lbs. pushed the edge down an inch or two...
    
    The price was right: $2200 on sale for $1800.  Not bad considering that
    an acrylic tub runs for $3000-3500.  Also, the manufacturer claims it
    costs less to operate because of the air tight lid and the use of the
    pump waste heat rather than a separate heater.  Since we've only had
    ours a couple of months, I haven't verified that yet...
    
    There's a Soft Tub dealer in Wyndham.  The name is something obvious
    like "Soft Tub Shop" but I can't remember for sure.  These folks
    delivered the tub and took an hour or two to set it up, fill it, go
    over the instructions, etc. They even provided a couple months supply
    of chemicals and a test kit.  Now, $1800 ain't peanuts, but I was
    pleasantly surprized that they went to that kind of effort especially
    since I live a hour and a half way from their shop...
    
    
    John B.
                                                      

    Is this Wyndham Ma? or NH?  Are there larger "soft tub" models?

    Thanks,

    George

    Ooops!  That's Wyndham, NH.
    
    I do not know whether there are different sizes.  Why, are you planning
    a party?  Am I invited??? :-)
    
    
    John B.

I live in Windham, NH, but as far as I know there is no Wyndham.

Paul

    Sorry no party planned, just looking for spa that hold 4-6.

    Thanks,
    
    George

    
    I am in the process of purchasing a larger home, one part of the deal
    is the spa in the master bedroom.
    
    It is a 4 person tub, the owner says it's around 350 gallons. I say
    four person because there are four 'indents' in the sides for sitting,
    and it's about 5 feet in diameter; however, these four friends ought to
    be good ones because there would be a lot of 'footsie' going on. It is
    made by Kohler.
    
    I have read all the notes under the keyword SPA and a few folks talked
    about care. I see some are using chlorine, some bromine, and others
    have ozone generators. I've never owned a pool or spa and I'd like some
    opinions and advice on how to take care of this thing.
    
    Thanks
    
    Chris
    

    Can't believe no one has replied to this yet.  Aren't there any other
    Finns out there?  :-)   I just added this conference the other day and
    came across this note yesterday, so....
    
    Anyway, The Stephen Greene Press, Brattleboro, VT 05301 publishes a
    nice little paperback (90 pages) that provides most of the information
    you might still be looking for.  They list a number of sauna
    manufacturers and suppliers (some which include plans and construction
    details with their brochures) including:
    
    Arctic Sauna, 976 U.S. Highway 22, Somerville, NJ 08876
    
    Baths International, Inc., 101 Park Ave., NY, NY 10017
    
    Cecil Ellis Sauna Corp., 18 West 56th Street, NY, NY 10019
    
    Heaters:
    
    Finno Company, 15836 Lahey St., Granada Hills, CA 91344
    
    Bow & Arrow Stove Co., 14 Arrow St., Cambridge, MA 02138
    
    Accessories:
    
    Finno (see above)
    
    Normandy Products, 40th and Butler Sts., Pittsburgh, PA 15201
    
    General Info:
    
    Finnish American Chamber of Commerce, 200 East 42nd St., NY, NY 10017
    
    SAFA Planning & Building Standards Institute, Bulevardi 1
    00100 Helsinki 10 Finland
    
    By-the-way:  If you ended up building or buying one, please post
                 the results.   Thanks!
    

    	I am having problems with some of my chemicals.  I am currently
    using Bromine, Activate, and Protect-Plus.  I have been having problems
    with cloudy water and a greenish-yellow scum on the side of the tub.  I
    tried a new bottle of protect-plus after cleaning the filter.  Within
    one hour, the scum started going away from the top of the foaming
    water.  The surface foam and film also started disappearing.  I am
    going to try the old bottle of Protect-Plus again for tonight and see
    if the scum starts coming back.  I will be sure of the Protect-Plus if
    it does.  My question is, "Has ANYONE else out there had a problem with
    Protect-Plus doing this?"

    	Forgot to add, the SCUM and FOAM appeared on NEWLY filled water
    with a clean filter as soon as the Protect-Plus was added the first
    time.

    	As a reply to -.1 and finalization:
    
    Great Lakes Biochemical admitted that they had many returns of the
    Protect-Plus due to a manufacturing defect.  The defect will not cause
    any health related problems, only a GREEN, RUBBERY scum to form around
    the top surface of the water in your tub.  You will be able to use the
    water in the tub by simply changing to a new bottle of protect plus.  I
    DO NOT have the batch number as I took the bad chemical back.  The only
    thing that will happen is that you will have to use more Protect-Plus
    to keep the scum off the tub until you change water.  Also, you will
    need to get your water checked for Calcium Hardness as the defect seems
    to lower the hardness level of the water to a point that foaming will
    be allowed to be rampant.
    
    	

    To open this up again....
    
    	I'm remodelng our bathroom this summer and we are thinking of
    putting in whirlpool tub.  They are relatively expensive and before
    we make that commitment I'd like to get more information.   We 
    are limited by the size of the bathroom to a normal size tub -
    32"X60".  There is one comment in here about the disadvantage of the
    jets being on the side.  Anyone have any other comments on units that
    they have?  Do you use them?  What about maintenance, ease of
    installation etc.?   If you have put one in, would you do it again?
    
    Thanks,
    
    George

    
    There are whirlpool tubs, and there are spas, or hot tubs. they are two
    different things.
    
    Advantages of a whirpool tub:
    
    Can replace an existing tub, no need for extra space
    No need for chemicals
    Cheaper than a spa (relatively)
    You only use it when you want to
    
    Disadvantages of a whirlpool tub:
    
    Replacement size tubs are a little small to get the full effect from
      the jets
    Takes time to fill the tub
    
    
    Advantages of a spa:
    
    Ready when you want it
    Thermostatically controlled
    Larger size gives you room to move around so that you can put the jets
       where you want them
    In general the jets are stronger 
    You can get a bubbler which is a great massage
    
    Disadvantages of a spa:
    
    Needs to be maintained
    Additional chemical expense
    Requires a special area for placement
    
    I can't help you with your questions about whirpool tubs. We have a 5
    foot Kohler spa. I use it every evening. It's on a timer to go on at
    6:00 and off at 11:00. I absolutely would have another one in the next
    house. I can't think of a better way to end the long day.
    
    CdH
    

    We have the tub type, however it is oversize (two people). It is well
    worth the expense. Great for watching tv in. I would put another in but
    again it would have to be oversized.

    Could you tell me the dimensions of a two-person whirlpool tub?
    I'm trying to develop a floor-plan for a vacation home.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Steve
    

    I am thinking of buying a used hot tub, self contained.
    I plan to place it outside next to my deck.  I envision building a
    foundation for it by building a frame a bit larger than the tub
    made of 2 x 8 PT 16"oc.  This would be placed on some concrete blocks
    and the blocks would rest on the ground (maybe I'll put a rock bed
    on the ground).
    
    I'd like a 4 person unit, and I'd like to be able to plug it into
    a standard 110v outlet that I have on the deck.
    
    Has anyone done this or have such a unit?  Can they be plugged into
    a std outlet?  What are the electrical costs of keeping these going
    year round?  Any models recommended or to be avoided?  Any features
    that are nice to have or not to have?  Any price guidlines?
    
    thanks, Mark.
    
    btw, I couldn't find this topic anywhere in here.
    

    I've seen stand alone hot tubs in some spa shops, so what you want dies
    exist. They would probably have to be attached via a GFI for safety. I
    don't have any operating cost numbers, but you could probably get
    plenty of info at any spa store.
    
    Eric

    Hot tubs can be configured for 110 or 220. In Massachusetts you cannot
    plug them into a receptacle, they must be hard wired. In New Hampshire 
    you can, I don't know about anywhere else. I guess in MA they don't want 
    you to unplug the tub while you are wet or in the tub.
    
    It's probably worth checking how the tub would perform with 110v,
    especially if it will be outside. With 110v, if you turn anything on
    like the jets or blower (which both cool down the water) the heater
    cannot kick in to recover from the heat loss. You could have a
    situation where you run outside, take the cover off, unrobe and jump in,
    turn on the blower, and in a couple of minutes you have lost enough
    heat that the tub no longer feels nice and hot. You could turn
    everything off to let the heat come on but with 110 it will probably
    take too long and you might loose your interest. You would be surprised
    what loosing a couple of degrees feels like, 104, 102 is great, 100
    starts getting cool.
    
    It's a very common practice to try out hot tubs before purchasing so
    don't be afraid to ask.
    
    Linda
     
    

    I agree with the 220v.  In the winter I would think the 110 would not
    be enough.  As for costs.  It will depend upon how hot you keep the tub,
    how often you use it, and how long your cleaning cycle and re-heating
    cycles are.  But in the middle of the winter if the tub is completely
    exposed, Don't be surprised if it adds over $50 to your electric bill.

    We got one that has a 7 day timer for the heater and a 24 hr timer for the
    filtering cycle.  I like the fact that I can set the timer once for my 
    schedule that week and know that tub is going to be hot when I want it.

    A 110v tub will also take longer to heat up than the 220, the heater 
    just can't draw as much juice.

    I'd also suggest to go with as much insulation as possible.

    George

    Hmmm, looks like 110 will not cut it.  I definately want to use this
    primarily in the winter and cold seasons.  Like now.  I can't imagine
    using it for more than 1/2 hour most nites.  
    
    How do you set your heater timer if you want to use it once every
    nite, say around 8pm.  How many gallons of water (on average) are
    being heated?  How many watts are they running?  And how long does
    it take your unit to heat up (recover).  Also, is it cost efficient
    to keep the heater on at all times, or just for a few hours before
    you will actualy use it.  In other words does it take more energy
    to heat a cold tub once vs. keeping it going all the time?
    
    I figured the electric cost would probably run me about $1/day.?
    
    I definatley intend to keep the unit covered when not in use.  How
    do you insulate one of these?  I would imagine you'd want to insulate
    under the unit and around the sides.  What do you use, perhaps 6"
    house wall insulation?  If so I'd now have to build a wall around the
    tub.  
    
    This is great feedback, pls keep it coming.  thanks, Mark.

>>    How do you set your heater timer if you want to use it once every
>>    nite, say around 8pm.  

      There is a dial that is divided up into 2 hour segments for every day
      of the week.  Push in the 8-10pm segment on every night, and it will
      allow the thermostat to decide if the heater should kick on durring 
      that period of time.

>>    How many gallons of water (on average) are
>>    being heated?  How many watts are they running?  And how long does
>>    it take your unit to heat up (recover).  Also, is it cost efficient
>>    to keep the heater on at all times, or just for a few hours before
>>    you will actualy use it.  In other words does it take more energy
>>    to heat a cold tub once vs. keeping it going all the time?
  
    My tub is 250 gallons there are some bigger some smaller.  I've got a
    6 kilowatt heater.  I really haven't done timings on how fast it heats
    up but I think it can raise it 20 degrees or so in an hour.  It depends
    on how much heat loss you have through your insulation.
      
>>    I figured the electric cost would probably run me about $1/day.?

    On the average probably.  But in the summer, you don't have the huge
    temp differential.
   
>>    I definatley intend to keep the unit covered when not in use.  How
>>    do you insulate one of these?  I would imagine you'd want to insulate
>>    under the unit and around the sides.  What do you use, perhaps 6"
>>    house wall insulation?  If so I'd now have to build a wall around the
>>    tub.  
  
    They come with little to no insulation or up to 6 or more inches of foam
    insulation.  I ended up buying a model that didn't have too much insulation
    but I insulated the skirt around it.

    I've found that the cover is the weak link in my tub, probably should look
    into modifying it, but haven't yet.  I've insulated the rest of the room
    the tub is in, and it's just starting to get colder, so it hasn't been
    a major priority.

    Do you have propane at your house?  Supposedly the propane heaters are
    more efficient and can bring the temps up faster.

George

    
    Ours is indoors, so it may not be applicable to your situation. It has
    a 110V 1.5KW heater which does a fine job of getting the 130 gallons of
    water to 104 degrees. They key is to put it on a timer, so it's ready
    when you want it, and to get a high quality insulated cover. The cover
    keeps both the heat and water in. Without a good cover, you can plan on
    losing gallons per week to evaporation, if you like the tub hot. The
    unit (Kohler) has a built in GFCI but it failed, so I wired it into a
    new 20A circuit with a GFCI breaker.
    
    When the jets are on, one of the two heater elements are turned off.
    This works out fine for a normal bath, 15 to 20 minutes max. The temp
    wiill stay within a degree. However, outside, that's a whole different
    story. The outdoor tubs I've been in all use propane, and are in the 
    40,000 to 60,000 btu range.
    
    Have fun
    
    CdH
    

    We are helping a friend install his new tub, at 110 volts it requires a
    fifty amp. circuit, so I know his electric bill is going up!
    Sandy

When I lived in San Jose, my lady had a 220V hot tub. I rigged
the dual heaters on a switch so one heater kept the tub at 70+
degrees and when we used it (usually in the evenings, it was set
for the 90's.) the time to heat was a lot less and the bill
averaged a lot less than running it full time. My wiring was not
to conserve energy but to get a quicker warmup.

cal

    I've got a 100v 250 gal hot tub outside. 30amp dedicated circuit.
    
    Brand: Sonoma (R30 cover, R45 walls)
    
    This runs $60/month in the winter, 30$ in the spring and fall.
    
    The water holds at 102 degress for about 45 minutes when I'm in it -
    all seasons. The drop off isn't bad. so we can get 2-3 hours of tubbing
    with guests (an hour is the reccomended max per person).
    
    The heater (I forget Kw rating) recovers at 1.5-2 degress per hour when
    covered.
    
    I shut it down as of New Years - get's too expensive. Also a real
    problem is ice - you get out and drip, and within minutes you've got
    ice!
    
    I'd suggest you put the tub on a concrete pad - 250 gallons of water
    wieghs a lot and even an empty tub is heavy to move if you need to
    replace the floor it sits on.
    
    If I were to do a hot tub again, I'd go with a lp gas fired heater -
    can heat up and recover very quickly meaning that you can set it
    at 40 degress to prevent freezing and then turn it up 2-3 hours ahead
    of time and have it nice and toasty!

    yes I WOULD GO WITH GAS OR LP it is nice of cource our winters in 
    washinton st are not as harsh,however you would be very happy with it 
    quicker to heat,and ask some one about an ozinator cuts down on
    chemical hassels

I was told (ha ha ha) that a hot tub would only cost about as much as
running a pool in the summer.

Our indoor spa runs 5 hours/day from 6 pm to 11 pm. and that costs approximately
75 cents, for all expenses.

CdH

    Hi folks,
    
    One year later, and I am still talking about this.
    
    I am going to go price some tubs, seeing how my electric bill is
    so high as it is, I want to check out the gas ones.
    
    Anyone have one of these?  If so, how large a tank do you recommend,
    and how often do you have to fill it, and what is the cost of filling
    them.
    
    thanks, Mark

    
    
    we have an electirc one, running it for a month ups the bill around
    $70. I'm not sure what we pay for our electricity.
    
    I sure would like to replace it with a gas-heated model
    
    simon

.14>  !!!


$70!  Contrast that with the person who says 75� per day ($22/month).

I'd look into insulation before gas (though do not discourage the gas.
Other factors... are you heating with 110v or 220v?  You'll use more
electricity with 110v.

$70 sounds awful high; prohibitive even!

I have a hot tub installed in an unheated breezeway. The heater is a
small 125,000 Btu gas boiler. The filter runs twice a day for a total
of 4 hours. The tub temperature is between 102 - 104�F. The
heater will come on during the filter cycle or while using the tub if
the temperature drops below the set temperature. My tub holds 500
gallons of water.

The tub also has an insulated cover which cost about $400. They often
get water water logged and take a beating with all the movement and
due to the type of hard form insulation is used. The cover lasts about
5 years. 

I can't really tell the difference in electric costs because the
filtering system doesn't use that much electricity.  The gas usage is
about $45 per month.

I empty my tub once a year and don't use it in the summer. It takes a
few hours to raise the temperature from 50� to 103� with the LP
gas. I understand it takes 2 to 3 times longer with an electric
heater.

I don't know what size LP gas tank to recommend because I also use LP
gas to heat the house and hot water.

I didn't really have a choice as the tub came with the house. If I had
to put in a tub myself I would go for the gas for the quick heating
and low cost.

Robin

Mine also came with the house...and if I had my choice I would have a sauna
instead.

I quoted the $.75/day, remember this is running *FIVE* hours per day, on a 24 hr
timer. On at 6:00pm, off at 11:00pm. If I ran it 24 hours then $70/month sounds 
perfectly reasonable. 

This spa is a Kohler, is uninsulated, has a 4" thick thermal cover, and is 
in the master bedroom, *inside* the house. The power pack is a 110V 20A unit
which is hardwired to an Intermatic timer switch, that is fed from a 20A GFCI
breaker in the panel. The heater has a 600W element and a 1KW element. With the
tub on low speed circulate both heaters run, when the high speed is switched on
the 600W element cuts out, when the bubbler switches on the 1KW element cuts 
out. This keeps the current draw under 20A. The spa holds 135 gallons of water.
It has seating for four but you had all better be real good friends or family,
it's really a two person spa with four seats.

The spa cools down to 85 degrees between cyclings (19 hrs.). It takes about two
hours for the spa to get up to the 102 degree temp, so it's ready by 8:00 pm.
The 600W element cycles via the thermostat. I like it at 105 degrees but my wife
prefers 100 degrees, so we compromise on 102 degrees.

CdH

    I went to a dealer, N.E. Hot tubs and Spas (or something like that)
    on rt. 9 in Natick (at the Wellesley line).
    
    Discussed tubs, gas and electric.  The guy told me that a gas heater
    would run $800 more than an electric, and payback would take years.
    Also, installation of a gas heater would require a plumber, building
    inspector, who may require a stack going higher than the roof of our
    house.  Sounded like a lot of hastles.
    
    On electric units, most came with a built-in 110/220 compatible.  As
    you already know, 220 is more efficient and can run both the heaters
    and the jets, etc. at the same time.  Where as 110 can not.  HE also
    said that 110 recovers about 1 degree/hour, where as 220 recovers
    10 degrees/hour, and 220 is less expensive on the electric bill.
    
    Their main line was Coleman tubs, and they seemed pretty nice.  Prices
    started at about $3800 for a 4 person, 5 jet model.
    
    Electrical requirements was a dedicated 50 amp circuit running 6 guage
    4 wire, 2 hot, 1 ground, 1 neutral.  This is a problem for me.  I think
    I would need to upgrade my service, as I believe I have around an 80
    amp service box running the whole house (30 years old, fuses and
    cartridges).  I wonder what this would cost???  I would also need to
    run this dedicated line from the panel to the tub which will be
    outside.  Anyone know the code requirements, like do you have to have a
    emergency shut off near the unit???
    
    Mark

    Has anyone seen the advertisements in 'The Mother Earth News' for wood
    fired hot tubs?  Does anyone have one?
    
    They claim that it will heat up in one hour.  It sounds really neat
    but I'm a little sceptical.
    
    Jim

    >     They claim that it will heat up in one hour.
    
    ...and then how do you stop it?
    
    Edd

    re.0
    The company is Snorkle tubs....
    
    A friend of mine has one and really likes it. I does heat up in an hour
    as stated and can be dampered down once the water is to the desire
    temp. It uses no chemicals so it is important that all persons using
    the tub shower before getting in. They also have no jets or bubbles
    having spent some time in it it reminds me of a deep bathtub outside.
    
    My impression of it is good if water quality and water jets are not
    important to you but overall I'd prefer a simpler system that hour
    lag time up front would I think in the long run lead to infrequent use
    on my part.
    
    
    -j

    No Jets, No bubbles ????
    
    Sounds like an oversized bathtub to me. 
    
    Listen, I've got a deal for you.
    
    There is an old cast iron bath tub out in a field near my house. I'm,
    sure its reasonable (like free if you haul). Fill it with water, build
    a fire under it, let it heat for one hour, get in and soak, if it gets
    to hot just splash a little water on the fire, if it gets to cold just
    add a couple of logs.    

    
    ......and rent a Witch Doctor, have him dance around chanting
    	  and droping stuff in the water.  Dont forget to have
    	  your hands and feet bound.  An apple stuffed in your
          mouth......

    
    ...and stir constantly, so you don't stick to the bottom.
    

    I just picked up a hot tub, and am in the process of finishing the
    room.  I've got a question on the floor...we'd like to get out of it 
    the most inexpensive way possible, however, we don't want major
    problems (water damage) down the road.  What options do I have for the
    floor?  I realize there's ceramic tile (which can be expensive). 
    Indoor/Outdoor carpet would trap the water and eventually soak the
    subfloor.  Self-stick/linoleum is extremely slick when wet.  Is there
    any "textured" tile that isn't as slick?  How about wood?  (with about
    20 coats of poly or waterseal).
    
    Pros/cons/recommendations?  Thanks.
    

    I'd put down wonderboard over the subfloor, and then ceramic
    tiles on top of that.
    If ceramic tile is too slippery you could get some large rubber
    mats for on top of the tiles.

    I went with ceramic tiles too.  Never regretted it.

    I step out of the tub onto one of those inside-the-house doormats.

    George

    I'd also recommend going the route of wonderboard underlayment and then
    ceramic tiles.  
    
    There are some very nice tile, especially granite "look" finishes that
    have a lightly textured finisg to give a non-slip finish.  I've seen 
    these tiles at Carrera tile in Acton for about $5/SF. Not cheap but
    attractive, #5 durability rating, and good for bath/kitchen
    applications.
    
    JBS

     Anyone out there know anything more about or have any experiences
with SOFTUB brand of hot tubs??  I recently bought one and wanted to
share my experience here.  I shopped around at Bj's, Home depot, and
several other pool/hot tub shops before buying mine from Hot Tub Express
in Salem NH. 

     They are basically "soft" tubs, able to withstand any kind of beating
short of cutting the material.  They only weight 60 pounds for the unit
and another 45 for the heater.  They are therefore truly portable as you
can actually pick them up and put them on your shoulder.(they lent me
their pickup truck and I carried the whole thing into the house and
installed myself)  They don't have
any seats inside but are circular and have a padded bottom(I thought this
would be uncomfortable till I sat in one).  They have one-piece heating
system that you set at a temperature and is much simpler than on the
solid tubs.  It only takes a maximum of 11 amps and therefore only about
$10/month as opposed to $20-$70 for all of the other hard tubs.  It runs
on 110 volts and just plugs into an outlet(it does have GFCI).  The cover
and sides have water running through them by a vaccum and you turn a valve
to put air in the vaccum and start the jets(no separate motor).  The cover
creates a tight seal with no air between the water and cover, and it has
kept the temperatures very steady.  I have it indoors but with no heat in
the room, and it's used about the $10/month they advertised so far.
   
     And the best thing about them is they are cheaper than hard tubs, both
in price, electrical savings, and warranty savings.  It's $2100 for a 4 man
that's the same size as comparable hard tubs.  Home depot had them at
$2700 plus estimated electric at $40(their number) and no warranty on
the motor that costs $400 to replace about every 2 years.  The private
shops cost about $3800 and used about $30 month(their number) and their
motor was covered by warranty for 5 years.  So theirs not much of a
comparison price wise.  Of course the tub doesn't look quite as fancy
as some of the others, though they do have several colors.   Another
good thing is you can move it where you want it, and bring it along if
you move somewhere else(or sell it easier).  They also are designed to
be used outdoors, with excellent insulation.  I have mine indoors right
now, but can easily move it to my deck outside if I choose.  Basically
you just carry it in yourself, plug it into any 110v outlet(gfci is on cord),
and fill it up.  

    Overall, so far it's been the best investment I've ever done!
    
     Anyone else out there have any experiences with these??

Thanks
Tim

>>  <<< Note 2077.33 by BRAT::WELLS "Cakes useless if you can't eat it too!" >>>
>>                                  -< Softub >-

>>now, but can easily move it to my deck outside if I choose.  Basically
>>you just carry it in yourself, plug it into any 110v outlet(gfci is on cord),
>>and fill it up.  

I'd be concerned about safety.  When I put in my whirlpool tub,  it was
required to be HARD WIRED to the circuit box (with GFCI breaker) *AND* had 
to have a separate #8 grounding wire from the motor to the box.  Are they 
bypassing the codes since it's "portable" or is the GFCI extra good?

Garry

    
    
        Don't know what codes your talking about, but  my electrician
    Bill Steinhart looked at it and said everything looks fine.  And
    he installed the outside outlet that I would plug it into if I 
    moved it out there, and didn't say anything about an added ground
    wire.
    
    Tim

    A couple of basic questions re: Spas/Hot Tubs.  Self-contained Jacuzzi
    in a currently unheated room.  (It should be heated shortly).  Anyway,
    it's 110, and since we rarely use it during the week, were wondering if
    (1) is it cheaper (electricity-wise) to turn the heater off during the
    week, and turning it on Thursday PM to get it hot for Friday (it heats
    up at the rate of about 3 degrees per hour), or (2) leave the heater on
    at a constant temp of about 85 degrees, thus it only kicks in when the
    water temp drops below 85.  (We keep the cover on all day, FWIW.)
     
    Also, the water temp currently hits 100, with the heater control on 
    maximum.  That's fine for me, but my wife thinks it's a little cool.
    Is there any way to increase the temp, without replacing the heating
    element?
    

    The directions for the tub probably reccomend running the filter for
    and hour every day to keep stuff from growing in it.  What I do
    is turn it off every night and then turn it on again in the AM.
    The filter and pump get to do their thing while the temp comes up.
    You probably want to check the chemistry every other day or so.
    
    As for your max temp problem - you are probably going to wind up
    replacing your heater-thermostat assembly.  It should let you
    get up to 105 or so at the max setting.  Mine went and the
    cost of the replacement was about $250.  I installed it myself
    as it was just some hose connections and wiring.
    
    Have fun!
    

    Like the discussion on set-backs for home heat, it is ALWAYS cheaper
    to turn the heat off if it isn't being used, because it will lose
    more heat that has to be replaced when kept at a higher temperature
    than at a lower temperature.  The only concern from the heat
    perspective is allowing enough time for recovery.
    
    Stuart
    

    I just replaced my heater as I could only get my 110v Jacuzi to about
    100 degrees.  After replacement it now can run as high as 112 degrees.
    
    The price of $250.00 is correct, but what a major comfort difference
    when it 10 degrees outside and the tub is at ~107
    
    Tom
    

    Could someone please educate me on portable spa's.
    
    I am interested in finding out from anyone that might have one
    
    1.  what are the maintenance requirements
    
    2.  advantages/disadvantages of keeping one outside in the Central
        Massachusetts area
    
    3.  life expectance
    
    4.  anything else you think I should know before making a purchase
        decision.
    
    Judie
    
    

<    1.  what are the maintenance requirements

	- I have a 400 gal portable.  I change the water every 6 months or so.
	- I weekly check/adjust the Ph and Clorine content of the water (takes
	  about 2 minutes.)
	- The Clorine treatment costs me about $8 every 6-8 weeks.
	- I inspect the filter monthly, cleaning it when it's dirty (every 
	  couple months) which takes about 30 min.  This could get VERY 
	  interesting when the temp is down around zero.
	- I clean out the few leaves etc. that get in the SPA whenever I notice
	  them (usually at the same time I'm checking the Ph)
    
<    2.  advantages/disadvantages of keeping one outside in the Central
<        Massachusetts area

	- I live in the San Francisco Area so my comments may be biased.
	- Outside is not a problem IF
		- it's very well insulated (otherwise the electric bill will
		  kill you) I spend about $25/month to keep the spa at 100 deg.
		  The winter temps here occasionally get below freezing here,
		  but usually stays in the mid 40's.
		- My unit is self contained with water in the plumbing which
		  connects the pump to the tub area.  On my unit this section
		  is not very well insulated.  I'd be VERY concerned about 
		  losing power during the winter if I were you. It wouldn't
		  take long for the outside plumbing to freeze (a couple hours
		  maybe)
		- If I find it's getting too cold (air temp) for me to use the 
                  SPA, I can shut off the unit to save some $$.  You won't have
                  that luxury.
    
<    3.  life expectance
	- My unit is 5 years old and has had the thermostat changed (I let the
	  Ph get too low for too long and the copper case around the thermostat
	  was eaten by the acidic water.) And I had a switch on the motor itself
	  die on me.  The thermostat cost about $50 and the switch was about
	  $75. I expect this thing to be around for another 5 to 10 years.
    
<    4.  anything else you think I should know before making a purchase
<        decision.

	- If it's outside, you'll have to deal with the bugs in the summer and
	  with the cold air temp in the winter.
	- When we first got the thing, we were in it a 2-3 times a week.  Now
	  it's more like 2-3 times a month. If you put the unit outside, will
	  you find it worthwhile to have it on during the winter months?
	- What will support the SPA? 400 gal of water weigh around 3200 pounds
	  plus the weight of the spa itself...
	- Where do you have to drain the SPA?
	- Go with an established name brand. It's easier to find parts and
	  service people. Don't depend solely on the place you bought the unit 
          to supply those resources.

	- IF you put the unit inside, you have a moisture/humidity problem to
	  deal with year-round...

    Thanks for the reply.
    
    Another question or two
    
    Is it possibly/practical to turn it off for the winter months, sort of
    like you do with a swimming pool in New England.
    
    And if you had to make the decision over again would you purchase one?
    
    I'm debating about pool or spa
    
    Judie
    
    
    

>      - If I find it's getting too cold (air temp) for me to use the 
>        SPA, I can shut off the unit to save some $$.  You won't have
>        that luxury.

It never gets that cold in Massachusetts.  However, keeping the spa
at the right temperature can be prohibitively expensive.  So many people
do turn them off for the winter.

To some extent, this is backwards.  Why would you want to soak in 100 
degree water when it's 80 degrees outside, the mosquitoes are biting, the 
air is humid, and the night skies are hazy?  On the other hand, when it's 
10 degrees outside, no mosquitoes around, and the skies are crystal clear, 
it's a perfect time to be soaking in hot water, enjoying the elegant 
beverage of your choice.  (Just keep your robe handy, for the dash back to 
the house.)

   Gary

<It never gets that cold in Massachusetts.  However, keeping the spa
<at the right temperature can be prohibitively expensive.  So many people
<do turn them off for the winter.

  10 deg use is certainly an option for those hardy souls that care to, but
realistically how often would you use it between Dec 1 and mid-March? And the
older I get, the less inviting it is...

   Shutting off and draining the unit for the winter would be no problem at
all.  You'd have to be sure to drain everything OR run some of the anti-freeze
thru the plumbing (the pink stuff used in RV's and the like.) 

   The only other concern would be the snow load on the cover which is easily
taken care of with some thick plywood.

   Regarding pool or spa...  The SPA is relaxing on cool summer nights, the
pool is refreshing on HOT days.  If you have kids, I'd probably opt for the
pool, if not then I'd opt for the SPA, if $$$ allows, get both... 

Al

    I have a spa in an unheated 3 season room.  Temps get pretty cold
    in there.  It costs me about $50 a month to run the tub in the winter.

    I tend to use it the most when the sport seasons change and I use new
    muscles.  But the previous notes about the cold air where right on.
    
    Nothing like watching the room fill up with steam and getting out
    of the tub onto the ice covered floor...

    George

    My tub is 600 gal outside in Mass. I turn it off and drain it after New
    Years eve. It get's too expensive to heat. I turn it back on April
    19th.
    
    If I were to do this again, I'd go with lp gas for heating, not
    electric, and I'd have it installed in a three month room (outside
    vents?) versus totally exposed. I base this on slipping on the ice that
    forms from people getting in and out during sub-zero nights!

    
    I have a 4 person spa right outside my back door in southern NH.
    Keep it at 102F and use it all winter.  Great for the back after
    skiing.  During the summer I turn it down to 90F or so so that I
    can sit an cool off at the end of the day.  It was about 5 years
    old when I bought it.  I have replaced the heater, $250, and a
    relay in the controlk box, $25.
    
    The location close to the house makes it easy to hop into when
    its 10 degrees F out.  And after you've been in it a while you
    can stand up and dry off without feeling the cold.  If I had
    put it inside I would have to deal with the moisture.  Outside
    is definitely the way to go.  It does cost more to heat it during
    the winter.  LP gas instead of electric is preferable.  Mine is
    electric, 110V, and I turn it off after using it at night.  Turn
    it back on in the morning.  That way its warm when I use it in
    the evening.  You are supposed to run it one "filter" for about
    an hour a day so letting it cool some and then warm back up
    serves two needs.  In January it adds about $70 to my electric
    bill but the other months are generally much better.
    
    When I move I will take the spa with me.

    OK now that I have the spa installed and have rapidly started consuming
    the chemical starter kit, I know that I can obtain the spa chemicals
    from the dealer but was wondering if there is any place where I can 
    purchase the chemicals at a discounted price.
    
    I live in Marlboro MA and work in Nashua NH any suggestions would be
    greatly appreciated.
    
    Anyone interested in the particulars relative to my spa hunting and
    what we finally purchased send me mail, I'll be glad to share what
    I have learned about spas with you.
    
    Judie
    

    
      There is an excellent mail order pool and spa chemical place called
    Leslie's. I recommend it.
    
    				Kenny

I seem to be having an electrical problem with my hot tub and I was 
wondering if anyone out there has had the same experience, or had any 
answers.  The problem has already stumped the electrician and a hot 
tub repair technician.

The tub is a Jucuzzi brand portable, 110V.  I have owned it for 2+ 
years and formally had it installed in my old house without problem.  
I recently had an electrician install a dedicated, 20A GFCI circuit 
running from the main box to a plug outside which is underneath the 
deck.  He also ran a copper grounding wire from the same box to the 
grounding bar on the hot tub.  

At first everything seemed to run fine, then the breaker started to 
trip every time the heater shut off automatically.  We have replaced 
the breaker three times with no success.

The tub has four cycles (off, blowers, heat & pump, and pump only).  
There is no problem cycling through all of these options as many times 
as you would like.  Everything runs fine until the heater shuts OFF 
automatically, that's when the breaker trips.  It also doesn't matter 
how long the heater has been running, it could have been running for 
24 hours (with the temperature up to 100 degrees) or it could be running 
for a matter of seconds (if I lower the temp to freeze control it
will shut off automatically).

Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions?

bob

It sounds like the auto-shutoff switch shorts out when it shuts down.

My guess,
Stan

    
    I have the same type of tub and have not had the exact problem
    that you have but I would suggest that you check the condition
    of the wiring and relays in the control box.  I have had
    problems with corrosion in the wiring and one burned out
    relay.  The wiring is cheap stuff and in the heat and moisture
    turns green with corrosion at the ends.  The resistance of 
    the wire goes up as it corrodes.  The ground wires and neutral
    AC wires are affected as much or worse than the hot leads.
    I have wound up replacing a lot of the wires with higher
    quality wire.  The new relay cost about $25 and was easy
    to swap in.  I was surprised at the cheap stuff considering
    what they charge for the tubs......

You may want to check out the GFCI circuit, some of this circuit is very sensitive
and they trip often when you the current change is high.  What I meant current
change is from OFF to ON which suddently draw current close to the breaker's
limit or from ON to OFF which suddently 'release' all the current from whatever
max to zero which will trip a very sensitive circuit.  Or ON-OFF-ON... very
rapidly, eventhough you didn't switch it on/off very rapid, but the switch
contact actually bounce on/off very rapidly which may also trip the GFCI.

This happen to my bathroom exhaust fan, once a while it will trip the GFCI,
especially if I rock the switch between on/off, almost trip the GFCI everytime.


You can try to fix it by replacing the GFCI or the switch which will provide a
smooth on/off.

Or, the grounding between the tub and the GFCI is not that good which gives a
voltage ground shift between the two point may also trip the GFCI especially
with a suddent high current shift.

Pak
ps:  It is still possible other problem that causes the trip, I am not an
     electrican...

    Re: 2 - I have looked in the panel box and the wires/connectors look
    very good.  I have also watched the relays working as I cycled
    through all of the settings.  Again everything looks OK.  I even
    tried using some sand paper on the relay that turns the H/F off.
    
    I have noticed some corrosion on the "high temp" button in the
    box which is connected to the heater.  I wonder if this could be
    "frozen" and causing the GFI to switch due to "high temp??"
    
    Re: 3 - We have already replaced the GFI 3 times.  So I don't think
    the breaker itself is a problem.  The ground could be, but why 
    doesn't it happen at any of the other settings, like heater ON?
    

    Hope some of you are still reading this.  I'd like to ask some ?s.
    
    Due to a defect in our upstairs tub we are getting a replacement.
    We have the space and the option of putting in a whirlpool tub.
    
    Choices are probably a 60" x 36" or 60" x 42".  The first being a
    42 gallon, the latter a 52 gallon operation capacitiy.
    
    We have a 52 gallon electric hot water heater.  The specs which will
    be mailed to me (I got a quick look at from the plumber) called for a
    52 gallon water heater for the 52 gallon capacity whirlpool tub.
    
    We may be able to install a 72" unit if we get creative, but would not
    have a water heater capable of supplying it.  (Unless we replace that
    also, and it is only 3 years old.)
    
    From reading the other replies in here it appears that the 36" model
    may be too small and that the placement of the jets should include at
    least one jet facing your back.
    
    I would like to hear from others who own these.  How often did you
    think you were going to use it, and how often do you actually use it.
    Someone said that their unit is so noisy, that they stopped using it.
    Has anyone experienced that problem?
    
    Are these units (i.e. the 60" x 42") suitable for 2 occupants?
    
    Thanks, Mark

It depends on how big the occupants are and the design of the tub.  If
you're "vertically challenged", like the models in the whirlpool brochures,
no problem.

I consider a 72x36 size the minimum plausible for two people, but then I'm
6'4".  A well-designed 60x42 model might be acceptable for shorter (and
skinnier) people.

Having a jet in your back is nice, but only if it's recessed and you don't
have to lie back against the wall of the tub.

				Steve

By the way, you don't have to advertise your entry here - most everyone who
uses the default "next unseen" will see it.

				Steve

    
    dont for get to check and see how much weight you
    adding to the floor...   Looking at a 2person, I 
    found it to be close to 1000#'s with H2O,tub and people....
    
    JD

    
    We put a one piece tub'n shower/whirlpool bath up in the 
    second floor bathroom.   Forget the brand right off hand.
    It's a 60" and kinda shaped like the B inside. Wider on both 
    ends than in the center. This is so 2 people can fit, looking
    at each other.  Has a 3/4 HP pump and 4 jets. 2 of the jets
    discharge straight out (moveable) from the fixture side, and
    the other two come out the sides about a foot from the backrest.
    
    We hardly ever use the thing.  It's noisy and if something along
    the sides begins to leak, you don't see it until a ceiling below
    is stained and dripping!  I've re-mounted the pump and am looking
    (slowly) for some short hoses that are rippled like a flexible
    radiator hose, to try and silence the damn thing.  Might even 
    have to move the pump to fit a longer hose to absorb the noise.
    
    As for the amount of water vs your heater, if you know you're going
    to use the bath that day, turn the heater temp up 20 to 30 degrees.
    You won't be jumping into anything over 105 degrees anyway. Once in
    and your body is used to the temp, you can raise it by adding pure
    hot water. 
    
    I've been in the hot tubs in Japan, and the water in those tubs is
    circulated thru a boiler. But you dont' get in at the same temp as
    when you get out.  :^)
    
    Honestly, if we had to do it ovr again, we'd've put the extra
    money into something else.
    
    Fred
                                                             

My father put a hot tub/spa in his house that he built 4 years ago.  He 
did a lot of research and asked lots of folks that had them how they 
liked them etc.  One thing that he concluded:  If he was going to use
this thing, it had to be the type that stayed full and had a heater of
its own.  Most folks that he polled that had the type that you are
describing (as did Frank in -.1) that you fill when you use it DO NOT
GET USED more than once or twice a year.  My dad bought a Jacuzzi
brand with an electric heater.  He soon found out that he was going
broke paying to keep the thing warm and retrofitted it so it is an
additional range on his furnace. It's slick.  It comes up to temp much
faster, and he has it on a timer and is in it soaking every night!

Personally, if I had to fill up a 50gal tub with my electric hot water
heater every time I wanted to soak, I'd never use it.

-Brian

    Thanks so far.  This is just the kind of input I was hopping to get.
    
    Fred, you said if you were to do it again you would have spent the
    extra $ elsewhere.  Did you mean for the bathroom?  I was wondering
    what you would have done differently?
    
    I agree with Brian about having one filled all the time is more
    advantageous for use.  But this (like Fred's) is a 2nd floor bathroom
    and would probably be unable to support the weight of a spa filled with
    water all the time.
    
    My situation is that I will very likely get the unit and installation
    paid for by the manufacturer due to the defect in the tub/shower we now
    have from the same manufacturer.  I will have to pay  for the tile work
    that will be involved as these units do not come with surround walls
    and we will have to purchase tile to do the surround areas.
    
    It seems like we may lean towards the 60" x 42" whirlpool tub set into
    a traditional tub/shower area with tiled walls and I would also put in
    a sliding glass door.  It will basically be like a wide tub and shower
    unit with the ability to be a whirlpool.  I think this may also help in
    the re-sale value of the house in the future.
    
    So.  Given that it may cost me a nominal outlay to upgrade to this, and
    given that they may be receptive to other choices (non whirlpool), does
    anyone have any suggestions on what they may do differently?
    
    Our current unit is a 60" x 32" 2 piece fiberglass tub/shower unit.
    
    So, no one out there seems to like their whirlpool tubs???
    
    Thanks, Mark

    	If you've read the previous replies to this note, then you probably
    realize that there are two different opinions about whirlpool tubs. 
    I believe that each school of thought has some valid statements, however, 
    you asked about specific tub sizes and first hand experiences so
    here goes.  
    	We installed a Kolher whirlpool when we had our house built a 
    couple of years ago and we love it.  First, let me clarify a minor point...
    Jaccuzi is a trademark name for a whirlpool tub.  Just like most people 
    will refer to an office copier as a XEROX machine, most people call a 
    whirlpool a Jaccuzi.
    	Anyway, the house came with a standard size tub, 60" by 30"(????),
    with a 1/3 hp motor and 3 jets.  The pump and plumbing take up some of
    the tub space so the interior of the tub is small and only useable by 48" 
    tall, 80lbs kids.  We opted instead for a 72" by 42" Kolher tub...I'm doing
    the measurements from memory so don't hold me to the exact inch.  Our
    objective was for both of us to fit comfortably in to the tub with most of
    us underwater.  I'm 5'11" at 210 lbs.  My wife is 5'7", 115 lbs.
    	The particular tub we have can be purchased at Home Depot for about
    $2000.  Our tub is rectangular shaped(inside) and holds 124 gals of
    water. It has a 2 speed p0ump with an electric water heater.  NOTE: the 
    heater only maintains water temp, it does not heat up the water.  There
    are 7 moveable jets with aircontrols on each jet.  We purchase a
    "Tender Grey" colored whirlpool so that it would match the rest of the
    fixtures in the bathroom.  I believe they come in 12-15 colors.  The tub 
    material is an ABS color impregnated plastic, NOT a color coated
    plastic.   The difference in material is critically important. Our tub
    starts out as a 1/4 inch thick sheet of solid "Tender Grey" plastic and
    is is heat/vacuumed formed to a finished shape.  If the tub is
    scratched or damaged, you buff out the scratch with 600 grit dry
    sandpaper, then 600 grit wet sandpaper.  If you decide to put a bullet
    hole through the tub, Kolher will repair it on site by patching the tub
    with a color matching liquid resin.  They say the finished patch is 
    undetectable.  A color coated tub will scratch and lose it's color
    over time.
    	Concerning the water...heating cost, water useage, floor loading,
    frequency of use etc.  As I stated, we have a nice deep(16") 124 gal model.
    The 124 gals is the total amount of water the tub holds until water
    flows out the overflow drain.  When you put a couple of people in the
    tub, it holds less water.  We have a 40gal water heater off of the oil
    fired furnace and it runs out of hot water before the tub is full.  We 
    really should have put in a 60 or 80Gal water heater.  We fill the tub
    up till we're out of hot water, wait 15 minutes and fill the tub up the
    rest of the way.  Don't worry about the water cooling off while you
    wait as the sides and bottom of the tub are pretty good insulators.  
	For cleaning, we were told to run about 1/4 cup of dishwasher
    machine detergent(not soap) through the whirlpool twice a year. 
    Susposedly. it will keep bacteria from forming in the plumbing.  We
    usually do this while were in the tub...we come out sparking clean with 
    no water spots :-) 
    	Water weighs 8.3 lb/gal and since there are 7.5 gals/cubic foot,
    that's about 63 lbs/cubic foot. The absolute maximum weight of the tub 
    is 124 gals x 7.5 lbs/gal equals 930 lbs.  Divide this weight, 930lbs, by 
    the floor area of the tub (approximately 4 ft by 6 ft or 24 squre feet) and 
    you end up with a floor loading of < 40lbs per square ft.  Since
    residential building requirements are 40lbs/sq ft minimum floor
    loading you won't have any problems with weight.
         When we first got the tub we used it 4-5 times a week.  After 2
    years, we use it probably 4-6 times a month.  It's absolutely great
    after a day trip of skiing to jump in whirlpool for a hour or two(we
    have spent 2 hours in it).  We don't use it as much in the summer unless
    we do some heavy yard work, then it's great for the sore muscles.  
    Noise from the tub isn't much of a factor.  Our house is very quiet so the
    tub seems a little loud when your in it but we can talk very easily,
    listen to the radio( in the bedroom) and of course, the real test is the
    neighbors haven't complained.		
    
    	I would highly recommend a whirlpool just make sure it's large
    enough for two people, deep enough to satisfy you, it has a built in water 
    heater, and is color impregrated.  Also, buy the 1.25 inch diameter
    drain kit.  That will allow the tub to drain in 3-4 minutes.   A good
    whirlpool will be expensive, but I think it's worth the cost.
    
    
                                        regards
    					Bob
    
    

    
    Just in case, let me clarify the description of my setup.
    
    I have a regular, one piece, fiberglass tub and shower encloser.
    To this is added, at the factory, a pump and the necessary
    piping and fixtures.  
    
    What we would've put the extra money into, I couldn't answer
    that right now. Might've been extra fill out in the yard.
    When you're building, what money don't go to "X" is for
    darn sure used at "Y".  :^)
    
    I'm sure we do not get even a small percentage of the benefits
    people get from a large hot tub/spa.  It feels good when your
    in it, but I doubt like heck if it feels any different than
    if you bought one of those units you hang on the side of
    the tub and it circulates areated water.  
    
    Let me put it another way.  After a good day out in the woods
    getting fire wood, cutting it to size, and stackin' it in the 
    cellar, this thing after 45 minutes of "TIMED" run, don't 
    take the "ache" out.  :^)   4 bottles of BECKS dark'll do
    a better job.  :^)  And it don't disrupt those watching TV
    either.  :^)   
    
    Had I listened to one and tried it before letting the novelty 
    of owning one make up our minds, we'd've bought a plain tub'n
    shower enclosure like we have on the first floor.  
    
    You're welcome to come down and look it over if you'd like.
    
    Fred
                                                                   

    
    Fred.  Do you add the Becks to the water before or
    after you get in??...:):):):)
    
    I take it most of the "spa's" are installed in the Master 
    bathroom..??   
    
    1. Would you, if installing one again.  Build a larger "Hot tub" 
       in an area dedicated to that tub or even outside rather than 
       in the bathroom?  
    
    2. Keeping it up and runing like a pool or have to fill it 
       every time you used it?
    
    JD

    One other thing to be aware of whe considering a whirlpool...
    
    When I remodeled the downstairs bath we wanted an extra large tub.  The
    only way to get it was to order a whirlpool tub without the jets and
    electronics.  I just had the house appraised for a re-financing and the 
    evaluator said that if we had the whirlpool it would add about a $1000 to 
    the appraisal.  I retrospect I think I would have gone with the whirlpool.
    Compared to the total renovation cost it wouldn't have been that much
    more.
    
    	George

    
    The BECKS DARK is more theraputic when mixed 50/50 before'n
    after a hot shower.  :^)))))
    
    No, where this thing is located now, we would not consider
    putting a larger "SPA".   Talked about one in the basement
    in the future, that's about it.
    
    Fred
                                                              

    Hmmm...  Looks like we are not going to get a whirlpool tub afterall.
    
    The manufacturer wants to "repair" our existing tub unit.  Their
    warranty gives them the discretion to "repair" or "replace" any
    defects.  
    
    Time to find another conference on "repair to fiberglass tubs".
    
    Thanks, Mark

    
    If you get your choice of a repair person to fix your tub,
    catch me on "mail".  
    
    Fred

    We do not have a choice on the repair person.  It is the manufacturers
    regional guy.
    
    Thanks, Mark

    FWIW
    
    You didn't say what kind of defect they are repairing but if I were you
    I'd make sure that the manufacturer agrees, in writing, that the repair 
    must be completely invisible and permanent.  If after it's done it's 
    functional but the repair is off color or something like that the 
    manufacturer should spring for a new unit.
    
    George

    Earlier in this conference someone mentioned the "add-on" spa that just
    sits in the bottom of a regular tub and turns your tubinto a whirlpool.
    Consumer Reports had a report on these in their July 1989 issue.  If
    you haven't read the article, basically it says "save your money"

    
    :^)  That's the point I was making about the setup we own..
    
    Fred

>    You didn't say what kind of defect they are repairing but if I were you
>    I'd make sure that the manufacturer agrees, in writing, that the repair 
>    must be completely invisible and permanent.  If after it's done it's 
>    functional but the repair is off color or something like that the 
>    manufacturer should spring for a new unit.
    
    The top of the dam needs to be leveled off.  This is described in more
    detail in note 5152.0
    
    The said that if we are not completely satisfied with the job they
    would "replace" the tub.  The work has a one year guarantee.
    
    They said we would not see any difference in color.
    
    All of this remains to be seen.  We are sort of at their mercy as the
    warranty states that they will "repair" or "replace" defects for up to
    3 years from the date of installation.  We are right at the end of the
    3 years.
    
    Mark

    
    	Just to add to the noise here..... 8*)
    
    	We're near the end of finishing our 2nd floor.  Made it into 2
    	bedrooms, and a master bath.  I'm 6' and around 160lbs, but mostly
    	because of my height, can't fit comfortably into a normal 5' tub.
    	We went with a Jacuzzi brand tub without the whirlpool stuff.
    	Cost was about 1/2 of that with the whirlpool.  The tub is 6'
    	by 3' rough measurements.  I think it's 20" deep.  We had been
    	given the clamp on whirlpool for a gift, and have set the tub up
    	to use that.  Our hot water is oil fired, tankless.....
    
    	The bath isn't finished yet, so we still haven't gotten to use
    	the tub, so can't comment on filling times, etc.  We have a well,
    	so we do understand that filling will take a bit, but made a
    	decision that we can live with that....  The main thing is that
    	it looks like we'll both be able to get into the tub together....
    	Soft lights, homebrew, a bit of music...... uuhhhhmmmmmmmmmm.....
    
    	Glen(n)
    

    Question:
    
    My spa (110v) just recently dropped it's temp down to 102F.   The only
    variable that I know of is the that our area (3 towns) got a nasty
    power surge that took out power for about ten minutes.  I replaced the
    heater core about a year and half ago.   My question is "Could a surge
    damage the heating element while the tub was  running?"
    
    Thanks,
    TC
    

>    heater core about a year and half ago.   My question is "Could a surge
>    damage the heating element while the tub was  running?"
    
	    I don't see how.  The heater element is just a large resistor.
	Current flow through the element generates heat.  Either it works
	or it doesn't.  The amount of heat from the element is probably 
	maintained by pulsing the voltage on and off.  This would be con-
	trolled be the thermostat electronics.
	    Is there an indicator lamp that shows when the heating element
	is energized?  You need more information.

					Tim

    The only light is an indicater light for on or off as far as heat goes. 
    My only other thought is that my water quality could be scaling on the
    element itself, reducing the heat transfer.  I just don't like the idea
    of shelling out $250.00 a year and a half later for a new element, if
    it's something simple to correct!
    
    TC
    

    Thermostat?

    Is your thermostat reporting the right temp?

    Try taking the thermostat sensing bulb out of the tub and, placing it 
    in some cold water, turn on the heater and see if the temp of the water 
    rises.

    You might be able to just ice the copper lead going to the thermostat.
    
    My tub used to vary the temp of the water based on the outside temp,
    the temp reported at the thermostat was different than the actual temp
    in the water.

    George

    I use a floating thermometer to measure water temp.  The tub was
    running at about 108f until last week, now I can't get it higher than
    102f.  I guess I'll call and get a price on the thermostat vs. the
    heating element. 
    
    Thanks,
    TC
    

    TC,

    Does your tub have a HEATER ON light?  Is the light staying on?
    But the tub not getting to temp?  If so it's not the thermostats
    fault.  But if the heater is getting turned off at 102 then it's
    probably the thermostat.

    George

    Thanks for the tip!  It in fact has a heater on light so I'll check it
    tonight.
    
    Thanks,
    TC
    

	We're looking into buying one of these portable spa's..  
	Unfortunatly I cannot find the pamphlet/salesman's card
	(He works for Digital out of Conn - We saw him at the
	Brooklyn, Cn fair).

	These tubs are round, and weight around 75 lbs.  We want
	to get the 6 person (300 gallons?), and it runs off of
	110 power.   We would like to try leaving it outside
	this winter -  Does anyone have any advise/inputs on
	what to watch out for/etc when we do buy one and get it
	setup?

	thanks/robin

    	I went back through and read all the notes on these. What I've
    gathered so far is this -
    
    	o Order of preferrence seems to be gas, 220V, 110V
    	o Make sure it's a brand name
    	o Get one that's well insulated
    
    	One of the things that I was thinking of is to have one in my back
    yard just outside a sliding glass door. I was going to use patio blocks
    set in crushed stone, so support shouldn't be an issue.
    	
    	Now comes the hard part. I obviously want it outside, and it would
    be nice to be able to look up at the stars on clear nights. I would
    also like a roof of some kind over it to keep the snow/debris off and
    out of the spa. I'd also like to shelter it from wind/cold somewhat.
    
    	I was considering a 3-season porch with a skylight over the tub.
    For those that already have them, any ideas/thoughts on the ideal N.E. 
    spa room/setting ?
    
    	Ray

    My Spa is in a finished breezeway that connects the main part of the
    house with the garage.  The room has a 10 foot slider to the backyard 
    and two skylights.
    
    On clear nights I can see the stars and moon from the skylights.  
    
    Other suggestions include:
    
    o Get a good insulated cover for the top
    o Have the pump on a timer to filter the spa twice a day
    o Have people shower before going into the spa if they are dirty,
      are wearing oils, body creams, or perfumes
    o Change the water four times a year and have the new water tested 
      by a spa company, the tests are usually free
    o Test the water at least once a week and after heavy spa use 
    
    
    

    .12 where are you located?  If it is New England, I would highly
    recommend getting something other than a 110V variety if you plan to
    leave it filled for the winter.  Reason being that you are limited to
    using one or the other BUBBLERS or HEATER with this variety.  From
    experience I know that when using a spa outside in a New England winter
    you need both the BUBBLERS and HEATER going.  BUBBLERS for fun and
    HEATER in order to be comfortable (you would be amazed at how fast the
    water temperature drops).
    
    .13 Ray, mine is installed off of a deck right outside of my 3 season
    room.  It is definitely nice to be able to look at the stars.  We have
    one of the heavily insulated covers on it to keep the heat in.  It is
    really nice to sit out in it in a snow storm......but tough on the bear
    feet walking the 5 steps across the snow not bad getting out though
    because because you are all warmed up.
    
    Judie
    
    

    
    has anyone had any type of water problems resulting 
    from having  one of these units in a closed in area
    during the year, more so winter????
    
    JD

    	re:15
    
    	I have some friends that have their's just outside a slider on a deck.
    They seem to really like it there too and have about the same number of
    steps to get back in the house from the tub.
    
    	As you say, you come out real warm, so it's not too bad getting out.
    I was wondering if it might be better to get out of the elements (i.e. 
    wind/rain/snow) though ? It'd definitely be nice not to have to shovel yet 
    another thing out in the event of a winter like last year :-(
    
    	re:16
    
    	I don't know about the water, but I looked at a house that had one
    inside. The room had baseboard heat and metal light fixtures, both of
    which were corroded pretty bad. I assume this was from the humidity and
    chemicals from the hot tub. The downside of the indoor tub was pretty
    evident.
    
    	One of the things I was looking at was building a patio block pad
    set on stone dust and put a roof over it and a waist high wall around
    it. The roof would have a skylight and the area from the wall to the
    roof would otherwise be open. This would keep the snow and rain off, 
    block some of the wind, and hopefully still allow a view of the stars. 
    
    	If I could pick up a couple sliders cheap, I would consider putting 
    those in, but they'd probably have to be wood or vinyl so they wouldn't
    corrode. I guess this would be considered a 3-season patio. Any minuses
    with this kind of set-up that I might be overlooking ?
    
    	Ray
    	

    
    Ray,
    was the room to small for the tub or just that it
    acted like a steam room??????
    
    JD

    RE: .17

    I just thought of two other suggestions.  My breezeway floor is made of
    concrete and has indoor/outdoor carpet over it.  Water will get on the 
    floor and the carpet is not moldy and dries fairly quickly.  The other
    suggestion is a fan.  I have a ceiling fan which helps circulate the
    air and if I need to I can open the slider to introduce more air.
    
    Robin

    	re:18 The room seemed to be more than adequate size wise, so I'd
    have to assume the steam from the tub must have caused the problem.
    
    	Whatever the case, an indoor tub would have to have the room designed
    for it to eliminate future maintenance problems. The biggest thing would 
    likely be the elimination of as much metal as possible (i.e. lights,
    base-board heat, wall plates/hangings, etc.). It probably takes a while
    to happen, but worth considering in the room design.
    
    	In my case, I'm trying to get the best of both. Last winter, I lost
    power for 50 hrs. with the highest temp during that whole time only
    reaching 0 degrees. If that happened with an electric outdoor tub I'd have 
    a mini-skating rink. For this reason, I'd probably try to go for a gas
    unit.
    
    	Ray

    .20 
    
    Even with a gas heater you still need a pump to circulate the hot
    water.
    
    Robin

    	re:21
    
    	I realize that I'll need a pump, but I figure that the generator I
    bought can handle that (and the other things I sized it for). I doubt
    it would handle heating elements on top of everything else though.
    
    	Ray

    	Just out of curiousity, has anyone ever thought about hooking a 
    hot tub up as a seperate zone on an existing FHW system (gas or oil) ?
    Aside from not being able to move it easily once installed, is there
    any other drawback ? Would it be any more or less expensive than a self
    contained unit using electricity or LP ?
    
    	I was thinking that with oil being as cheap as it is (for now
    anyway) that this would be a reasonably cost effective way to run one
    of these, especially outside.
    
    	Thoughts ?????
    
    	Ray

>    	Just out of curiousity, has anyone ever thought about hooking a 
>    hot tub up as a seperate zone on an existing FHW system (gas or oil) ?

    Hmmm... Not a bad idea assuming that your heating system has the
    excess capacity. But then most systems are sized to heat a house
    in the coldest weather expected for the local. I don't imagine
    that you'd be using the hot tub in the coldest weather but rather
    when it's a bit more moderate. If this is the case, then a
    properly sized boiler should be able to handle the additional
    load.

>    anyway) that this would be a reasonably cost effective way to run one
>    of these, especially outside.
    
    You'd definately want to consider freeze protection for the
    heating system water. Either properly located/insulated/heat taped
    pipes or anitfreeze solution in the boiler water itself.

While at the Home Show last weekend my wife and I were talking to a Thermo Spa
dealer (dreaming mostly) and there was another guy there (not from Thermo Spa)
that said he had done just what you were talking about. I don't know how he did
it though.

Steve B. 

    	For the set-up I was thinking of it would lend itself fairly well.
    I want to locate a tub right up against an outside wall of the house.
    The pipe would go through the wall and right into the tub. The tub
    itself would be in a 3-season porch.
    
    	This would minimize the chance of freeze up and the amount of
    any heat tape used. This would only require the less expensive 110V 
    connection since the pump and lights are the only thing needed for
    the tub itself.
    
    	What I'd most likely have to do is look into expanding my boiler (I
    think that's an option ?) or split off one of my existing zones. To do
    that, I was thinking I'd only need a zone valve controlled by a
    temperature switch (thermostat) at the tub. 
    
    	I'd probably want to have it so that the heat thermostat overrode the 
    tub thermostat in the event both wanted to come on at the same time.
    I was thinking of something like this -
    
    
    					    ------- Heat-------
    					   |		 	|
    	 --- Tub -------Z. Valve ----------			|   
    	|				   |			|	
    	|				 -----			|
    	|				|Circ.|			|
    	|				 -----			|
    	|			           |			|		
    	|				   |			|
    	|				   |			|
    	|			         ------			|
    	|			        |Boiler|		|
    	|				 ------			|
    	|				   |			|
         -------------------------------------------------------
    
    	Ray		

Folks;

  I got some bad new about the rebuild on my spa motor/pump.  The unit is 
approximately 12 years old an the impeller needs to be replaced.

  My source here cannot locate a distributor for SPECK pumps. The major 
Canadian distributors stopped importing them from Germany about 6 years ago.  

One of the local guys thought there may still be a distributor in "Florida" 
(gee that narrows it down). If someone could supply a telephone number and
address it would be appreciated. 

  The pump is mounted to a two speed 1 - .12 HP motor.    

			Regards...

			Neil Baxter @CTH
			DTN-640-7066
			
    

    Anybody???
    
    I'll have to make up my mind soon.....
    
    		new pump   vs   new impeller
    
    				thanks in advance
    
    						Neil

    The impellor may not be unique to the brand of pump.  If you can
    extract the impellor, take it to a purveyor of impellors and see if
    they can match it.  Industrial hardware stores like Dayton etc. may 
    have generic impellors.  
    
    Brian

I'm starting to look into different spa manufactures in preparation for 
installing one next Spring.  I'd like to hear what types (manufacturer)
of spas people have and if they are happy, unhappy, problems, good 
vendors, vendors to stay away from etc., pretty much any information I
can get.  And, would you buy that brand again? So far we've looked at 
Coleman, Sundance and HotSpot (not sureif the last name is correct).

Thanks,

George

We have a Sundance spa - now two years old.  The only problem we've had was
a flaky control panel which was promptly replaced at no charge.  I have yet
to see a line of spas that is more "intelligently" designed regarding placement
of jets, control features, etc.

I'll also comment, though, that the quality of the individual dealer is just
about as important as the quality of the spa.  Since you're in the Nashua
area, I can recommend the dealer we bought through, Sundance Spas and
Solariums, Amherst, 882-2600.

				Steve

    	I'd recommend that you talk to Al (sorry, don't know his last
    name), the owner of Spas Etc in Merrimack.  He did a custom
    installation job for me...  Spa in the sun room, all the noisy stuff in
    the basement.  He buys the raw shells and then puts all the jets and
    such where ever you want them.  His prices are quite a bit lower than
    all the places with the fancy show rooms.
    
    Brian
    

    re:169
    
    	A couple of months ago, I bought a used 2-3 person Sundance. The 
    control panel is a bit flakey, but the price was right (found it in
    classified_ads). Other than that, I've been happy with it so far.
    
    	Looking at the price of new vs. used, it seems these things
    depreciate quite a bit. Average price for a new one seems to be about
    $5-7k for a 5-6 person tub. Average price used seems to be about $1-2k 
    for the same size tub.
    
    	After you narrow it down to a brand or two, I'd suggest considering a 
    used tub. Let someone else take the depreciation hit, especialy if you're 
    not sure if you'll really like it and use it in the long-run. Either way, 
    you can probably get most of your money back reselling the used one. You 
    can always buy a new one.
    
    	Ray
    
    BTW - I think the name of the last one is Hot Springs and I have some
    friends that have one and really like it. They have a spring loaded
    rigid fiberglass top (looks like a turtle shell) that swings up and out
    of the way. It looks like it will last the life of the tub and it is
    better suited for exposed outdoor use.