Conference 7.286::home_work

    I had something bizzare happen the other night, and thought I'd
    get some opinions on the situation...
    
    Sunday night, I suddenly noticed that the electrical outlets in
    my son's room, and in the hallway were not working.  I went to
    the box and checked all of the breakers, and none were off or
    tripped.  I shut power to the whole house, and turned it back on,
    and still no juice to these outlets.  Well, thoughts were then
    running through my mind of "frying" wires behind the walls or
    some such thing, and I started thinking about calling in a
    professional.
    
    I then tried to remember the steps I had taken before I noticed
    the outlets being dead.  And, lo and behold, I remembered I had
    just filled the console humidifier, and plugged it back in to
    a hallway outlet (at the end of the hall, and it was still working.)
    Just to check it out, I unplugged the humidifier, and the bedroom
    outlets started to work again!  I then plugged the humidifier back
    in, and it worked, and the outlets were still working.
    
    Things are working fine, and I played with the humidifier plug to
    see if I could cause the problem again, and it works without a hitch.
    
    Question is - should I worry about it?  I'm a bit concerned because
    it happened once.  But I checked the wiring in the humidifier (only
    3 weeks old) and it appears fine, and as I said it's working ok
    now.
    
    Any thoughts would be appreciated - I've never seen an appliance
    cause the rest of the circuit after it to go dead.
    
    Andy
    

    There may be a loose wire in the outlet that the humidifier is plugged
    into. When you disturbed it you could have disconnected the other
    outlets. Wiggling it again could have made the connection. If the
    outlets are of the type that you push the wires in from the back
    I would replace them with outlets with screw terminals. At any rate
    I would remove the outlets and check the wiring completely, if there
    are loose wires and arching begins you're asking for a fire.
    At least turn off the breaker on that circuit until you get it checked
    out.

    Nick

    Good point - I remember a problem with another outlet a couple
    of years ago (would go in and out) - when I pulled the outlet,
    I noticed the wires were simply stuck into the back of the outlet.
    These outlets also had the screw terminals on the sides, so I just
    moved the wires to these terminals, and things have been fine
    since.  I'll check the outlet when I get home tonight and change
    it around as well.
    
    Does anyone else agree with this, or think I should look more closely
    at the humidifier?
    
    thanks,
    andy
    

I've had the same thing happen too!

It was the same dreaded push in connectors.  Moving the wires to
the screw terminals fixed the problem.

R.

    
    Some weekend in the middle of February, when cabin fever is starting
    to set in, pull all your outlets and rewire to the screw terminals,
    clamping everything down nice and tight. You'll save yourself a
    lot of future headaches. The slip-in connections are a great source
    of high-resistance connections which cause down-line voltage losses
    and, in the presence of a heavy load, heat and fire.
    
    There's nothing wrong with the humidifier.

I agree.  I can't conceive of a way that a fault in the humidifier itself 
could cause the symptoms you describe.  The problem is in the outlet. 

Caution, prejudice ahead:  the type of workmanship you see in your 
electrical system may go hand-in-hand with the use of aluminum wire, and 
any sloppy workmanship with aluminum wire would be very bad news indeed. 
If you have any Al wire in the house, you should inspect its fittings
closely and regularly. 

    Well, one more vote with the rest. When we build our house 11 years
    ago, the electrical sub-contractor used copper throught the whole
    house, but used the push in connections. My problem was just exactly
    the opposite, plugs down the line didn't work unless the outlet
    was used. Disconnected the breaker and saw the "arc" on the wires.
    Used the screw terminals and the problem went away.
    
    As a side note, being that WE are all concerned with safety....
    
    I went to a dog and pony show given by a man from OSHA, at OGO.
    The life of a new construction outlet is only about< 5yrs. These
    are the cheepies that you buy for home use. The major issue the
    man had about the outlets was that the tensile strength of the
    retaining connectors (outlet itself) was only as good as the correct
    use of the outlet. IE pulling out a line cord by the strain relief,
    straight out, not at an angle.
    
    He also covered bladed line cords adn grounding type line cords.
    He was also very high on GFI circuits in the kitchen.
    
    Good program, go if it is offered as a community service in town.
    
    dana

    .6 mentions the GFI outlets, we recently had a problem somewhat
    similar in nature to that described in .0 which was finally traced
    to GFI.  Problem was, all power to the upstairs bathroom was off.
    Checked the breaker, normal.  On the next sunny Saturday I killed
    the mains and opened the affected circuits, found nothing so I opened
    the breaker box and discovered the breaker labeled "upstairs bath"
    had no wires attached (clue!).  The house is new so I called the
    electrician who wired it for me, he asked if I'd checked the GFI,
    to which I replied there was none in the upstairs bathroom.  So
    he had me check the downstairs bath, there was a GFI and it was
    tripped - resetting it fixed the problem!  He told me that they
    sometimes wired all the protected circuits beyond the GFI outlet
    together, so that was why the breaker was labeled but unused.
    Later, my wife reported hearing the GFI kick out when she turned
    on the downstairs bathroom fan, and the upstairs was again dead
    - but the fan does not always cause this!  Guess I'm ready to start
    troubleshooting the next round...

    I guess it depends on the same types of things involved with indoor
    lighting.  Such as;
    
    		How large an area to be illuminated.
    		Spot light specific areas or entire driveway.
    		Where do you plan on attaching the lights? Poles,
    		house or garage?
    

    
    If you're interested in security (bright light burning all night)
    of course you should try to find the largest lumens for the least
    lira, and the technology you mentioned is appropriate. However,
    if you're interested in seeing your way around puddles, finding the
    car lock without scratching the paint, and greeting guests warmly,
    nothing beats one or two good old post-mounted incandescents.
    
                        (...he said in a whisper...)

    You also ought to look at light color and starting time.
    
    Quartz halogen is essentially an incandescent.  They use quartz instead
    of glass and there's a halogen atmosphere inside the lamp. This causes
    the metal on the filament to replate back on the filament instead of on
    the inside of the glass.  You get a brighter lamp since you can run
    hotter without problems.  They last longer cause the filament doesn't
    get eaten away as much. You also get more consistent light output.
    Incandescents turn black on the inside of the lamp due to the filament
    depositing there - at the end of their life, they don't put out as much
    light as early on (a real problem in stage lighting for example). 
    
    I don't think mercury vapor and sodium lights are white light.  They
    also take a bit of time to start up after power is applited.  Depending
    on application, this may or not be a problem. 
    
    Steveg

    ref: 1082.2
    
    sorry, i didn't know i was talking so loud, now i understand!

    Sodium vapour gives the most light for the energy spent; they're
    the most expensive to buy. Fixtrur runs $75-$120 and a replacement
    bulb runs $39. The Sodium vapour runs at lower voltage and has no
    starting problems in the winter; mercury vapour sometimes have a
    harder time starting in temperatures below zero (F).
    
    Halogen fixtures are cheap and a little cheaper than incadensent
    to energize for the same wattage output. Oops, incandescent--^
    
    /cal

    re.0
    High-pressure sodium is about the cheapest over the long run.
    Low-pressure sodium avoids all of the problems that the high-pressure
    has including the starting problems in cold weather. The major
    difference between the two is the color of the light and the
    wattage requirements.
    Metal-halide lamps are very effecient and work well outside
    the light color is somewhat more white than than mercury vapor
    lamps. 
    Mercury vapor- is the cheapest to buy in the beginning but over
    the long run costs more due to the higher electric use.
    
    A 30 watt high pressure sodium lamp will give the same lumens
    as a 160 watt mercury vapor. 
    
    I would vote for the sodium lamps if the following apply:
    1. you want to save money over the long run and dont mind spending
    more up front.
    2. the light will be on all the time during darkness.
    3. you can stand the yellowish light color.
    
    
    If this is just to light up your outside entertainment area for
    use at night go with the quartz-iodine lamps as they have the whitest
    brightest light and are more pleasing to the eye.
    
    
    -j
    
    p.s. this info is based on my work in lighting in a former life.
          ( before DEC)
    
    

    After re-reading the base note I would look into either the merc-vapor
    or hi-pressure sodium lights.
    A 160 watt merc or 30 watt  sodium will cover about 100' diameter
    circle mounted on a 30' pole.
    
    -j
    
    

    I saw a high-pressure sodium fixture (pretty sure it included the
    bulb, too) on sale at K-mart a couple of weeks ago for somewhere
    in the $60 price range, if I remember right).  Keep your eyes open
    for another sale (or for a box that they forgot to pull the sale
    price sticker from)
    
    -db

    Don't recall anyone mentioning, as a criteria, neighbors.  Which
    light you choose may also be dependent on how much you care to p*ss-off
    your neighbors.  There's nothing like the impact of one of those
    high intensity, ugly green or yellow lights seeping through every
    crack and crevice in your wall and window treatment :})
    
    Dwight    

    Re: -.1  Good point!
    
    Geez, whatever happened to simple light bulbs, flood lights and
    spot lights?  That's what I've got and it seems to work.  Does
    everything have to be hi-tech?
    

    re.9 Amen! I dont know how many times I've considered shooting out
    my next door neighbors light. I use just the quartz flood light
    to light up my yard and shut it off when I'm not using it.
    The light shines right thru my bedroom window. Funny I never
    had a shade on my window until he put in his light. I only use it
    at night.
    
    -j
    

What's even worse is when the light has a defect and keeps going on and
off. There is a business down the street that has a lite on a 30 foot
pole pointed in his yard and the lite comes on, slowly reaches full
capacity, stays on for about 3 mins and goes out. Right thru the bedroom
window and into my eye...

    It would do that not long at all I would shoot it out.
    I stayed in a motel that had a light out side that did the on/off
    all night once. I dident sleep all night everytime i started to
    fall a sleep the light would come back on. 
    
    -j
    
    

<-- re -.1
I got a .22 and I thought about that. However, since I wrote that reply I
have decided to talk with the owner to see if he realizes it is doing
that, and ask him to fix it. It's just become a problem again since the
heavy insulated curtains have come down and the light ones have gone up.

    I didn't see any notes concerning this ... so..  I will be installing
    3 outside pole lamps along my driveway.  I understand that I can
    use underground wire with no conduit.  But since I know nothing
    about wiring...what does the wiring look like?   Is it like this?
    
        house_______________light________light_________light
             |___________________________________________|
    
    Also, how does the pole attach?  Is it cemented ?  rocks ?  etc.
    
    Any other pointers would be helpful..
    
    thanks..bob o.
    

RE: 1338.0 


    > I didn't see any notes concerning this ... so..  I will be installing
    > 3 outside pole lamps along my driveway.  I understand that I can
    > use underground wire with no conduit.  But since I know nothing
    > about wiring...what does the wiring look like?   Is it like this?
    
	Should be like this:

        house_              light        light         light  <- ground
             |               ||            ||            |       level
             |_______________||____________||____________|
    
	It is acceptable, generally to use underground wire i.e. type UF,
	in most locales, be sure to check you local code.  If you are
	coming through a basement wall then be sure to use conduit through
	the wall this is a NEC code requirement.  

	These will also have to be GFCI protected.  Consider putting a GFCI 
	outlet on your first pole and connecting the rest of your lamps to
	the protected side. On that note you will also have to decide whether
	you want the outlet always on or just when the lights are on, this
	will affect your wiring setup.

    > Also, how does the pole attach?  Is it cemented ?  rocks ?  etc.
    
	Unless you plan to dig below the frost line 3 to 4 ft. for your post
	(cemented) use dry fill, (rocks), otherwise your post will heave.

    > Any other pointers would be helpful..
    
	Consider using conduit the new plastic kind are easy to use and
	if you decide to make changes/repairs later you'll be glad you did.
    
	Hope this helps - Randy

> But since I know nothing about wiring...

This frightens me, Bob.  Do you intend to learn about wiring, or just to 
muddle along and see if it works?  Outdoor wiring is not very forgiving of
mistakes, even innocent ones.  There's probably not much that would catch
fire, but incorrect installation of a metal light pole would represent a
potentially fatal shock hazard for yourself, your family, your guests, and
passersby. 

Based on a quick scan, .1 is true and correct as far as it goes, but (as I'm
sure the author would agree) it isn't enough information for you to wire from.  
You need to consult the appropriate sections of the National Electrical Code
for the required materials and dimensions, and also read some how-to books
for the right techniques.  Even then, I'm uneasy about your choosing this
outdoor job as your first-ever electrical project; the materials (especially
UF cable) are too unwieldy, and the stakes are too high. 

Under the circumstances, I would respectfully suggest that calling in a
licensed electrician would be cheap insurance. 

    You could just use a center drilled wood light pole instead of
    a metal one.  That way no one would get shocked from leaning against
    it (if it was wired incorrectly).  Anyway, a GFI would (should)
    prevent fatal shocks.
    
    What's with the metal conduit through the house?  I had a licensed
    electrician set up for an outdoor lamp and he just took his very
    long drill bit and drilled a hole right through the sill.  The UF
    wire was just snaked through and caulked.
    
    -al

RE:> But since I know nothing about wiring...

	I guess I glanced right over that line.  As stated in .2 yes this
	is a fairly involved job for a first electrical project.  And much
	more information than is shown in the sketch is required to plan
	and wire correctly.  Outdoor wiring can also be very frustrating
	to the uninitiated, not to mention the initiated :).  You shouldn't
	let that put you off too much though; we all have to start as 
	novices don't we?

	My recommendation to you would be to pick up a few books: Sunset,
	Time/Life etc. on wiring and read them through to get familiar
	with planning out the job, wiring techniques, GFCIs and what 
	they are all about.  Then pick up Richter's Practical Home Wiring
	for a reference, it looks formidable but really is quite readable.
	
	Try a couple small projects first.  If you can, get a friend 
	(preferably in the electrical trade, mill wright etc.) who has
	done wiring before and be the gopher, you can learn an awful lot
	from watching.

	After you've tried a few small projects then it might be time, to
	think about some outside lighting, maybe just an outside receptacle.

	If you need the lights right away go for the electrician, you
	can save some money by digging the trenches yourself.  (To the
	electrician's specs of course).

	ONE THING TO REMEMBER IS NEVER, EVER ASSUME A LINE IS DEAD EVEN
	IF YOU TURNED THE BREAKER OFF.  Always check the line with a meter.
	At best a live line will give you a cheap thrill that will probably
	make you bloody your knuckles, at worst ... RIP.  Treat it with
	respect and you'll do just fine.

	DISCLAIMER:  The information contained herein is free and you get
	what you pay for;  better get out my asbestos suit now!

						Good Luck - Randy

	

    	A question for the more experienced DIYer. I've wired a single
    wood pole outdoor light, no trouble. But in a multiple light circuit
    where would the connection for the feed to the next light be made?
    Seems to me you would have to use conduit and boxes under/near the
    poles as there is little or no room in a wood pole for 2 cables.
    	
    		Just a thought..
    				...Dave
    

    another timely subject!
    
    i've been thinking of installing one or two outside lamps along
    my front walk.  definately one, two if somebody can tell me how
    to get conduit underneath my front walk, which is poured concrete.
    
    while i haven't actively looked for lamps, i haven't seen any.
    where is a good place to buy one, on a metal pole.
    
    also, may i recommend putting a switched outlet outside the sill,
    then running your conduit down from that, underground, to the lamp.
    it saves drilling through the foundation, and the outside outlet
    comes in very handy.
    
    bs

    To tunnel your way under your front walk try the following approach.
    Dig your trench from the house to the walk (this should be a minimum
    of 18" deep 24" is even better) and then start the trench on the
    other side of the walk.  Then take a piece of 3/4" tubing (long
    enough to go under the walk) and a garden hose and run water through
    the tubing and continue to work it under the walk.  After the tubing
    is thhrough leave it in and slide your wire through it.  
    
    
    Ernie

    RE .6
    >>        where is a good place to buy one, on a metal pole
    
	The light is purchased separate from the pole.  Poles come
    in metal, plastic and wood.  Wood ones are available from most
    lumber yards; the others come from lighting supply stores.
    
    The lamps are at any lighting store and where else but Spags.
    
    -al

    For the lazier, wealthy folks who must have a lighted drive way,
    Sears is selling a solar-charged battery powered lamps that will
    light the drive way also. Priced to sell at about 249$ per unit.
    Remember that this requires just planting the pole; no wiring, ever.
    And best of all, you don't pay the electric company for the energy.
    
    name and mail node witheld at writer's request. don't send hate
    mail to me, i just entered this note for him/her

    My intention was to wire the lamps up to the house.  I was/am planning
    on having an electrician check it out and connect it to the house
    wiring.  thanks for the help.
    
    bob o.
    

    re: .8
    
    >>The lamps are at any lighting store and where else but Spags.
    
    
      And a couple of them happen to be on sale at Spags too.  Spags
    electrical sale is in the tent. 
    
    -Jim
    

    How about low-voltage? Is'nt that safer and easier, especially for
    the first-timer? 
    I'm no expert, but I remember seeing something about it regarding
    light a deck and stairway leading to a driveway. Is it worth looking
    into?
    John

    If you use hollow metal posts place in cement, take note.
    
    1. Place post in hole with stone or at least sand for drainage in
    bottom of hole.
    2. Now pour cement into hole.
    
    If you don't follow the above procedure the following will happen.
    
    1.  The little cross shaft at the top of the pole (for hanging name
    or number from) will start to bend down at the ends.
    2.  You will ask the paper boy not to swing on the cross shaft.
    3.  He will look at you strangely.
    4.  When the weather again get above freezing you will notice the
    lamp post is full of water and the resulting ice column is what
    bent the cross shaft.
    
    5.  Very embarrassing.
    

    re: .9
    
    Are you sure that those solar-powered lights are $249.00 apiece?
    I seem to remember seeing them in a Yuppie catalog for around $50.
    
    -joet

    re .14
    
    I don't know about the Sears one, but from the description of
    the Yuppie (aka Sharper Image) ones, I wouldn't consider them
    for a driveway - they provide dim light for UP TO 5 hours after
    dusk in the summer - less (for which read "maybe 15 minutes if
    you're lucky") in the winter.
    
    Maybe I'm just too suspicious.

    Regarding the solar lights: They are now down to $49.00 each
    mail-order.
    
    Mark
    

RE:1338.3 

  >  What's with the metal conduit through the house?  I had a licensed
  >  electrician set up for an outdoor lamp and he just took his very
  >  long drill bit and drilled a hole right through the sill.  The UF
  >  wire was just snaked through and caulked.
    
	I checked my copy of the National Electric Code Handbook (McGraw-
	Hill) by McPartland and:

	Though the code, at least what I can find, does not clearly state
	the requirement of using conduit through a concrete wall though 
	many of the diagrams show it used (which does not in itself mean 
	required).

	It does require conduit when used with type UF cable under two 
	conditions:

	1.) If the conduit goes through a concrete floor across the space
	under (i.e. under the building) and then through the wall then it
	must be protected through a continuous piece of conduit.
	  < This would appear to affect mainly new construction >

	2.) Type UF cable must be buried at least 24 inches below ground
	without and at least 18 inches below ground with supplemental 
	protection.  Where the cable comes up out of the ground the cable
	must be protected from 18 inches below the ground to 8 feet above
	the ground by conduit (specific types of conduit depend on the
	application)
	  < This is one we must be concerned with >

	NOTE: References taken from Article 300-5 (wiring methods) and 
	article 339 (Underground feeder and branch-circuit cable).

	Al does your installation have this protection where it goes 
	underground?

					Hope this helps - Randy

	DISCLAIMER:  I make no claim to understand the local codes for 
	any area but my own (Plainville, MA).  When in doubt check with
	your building/wiring inspector.	

    WHEN I SPOKE TO MY ELECTRICIAN 'MONTHS AGO' ABOUT THIS SUBJECT...HE
    INFORMED ME THAT ONLY 12 INCHES DEEP WAS REQUIRED.  MAYBE I SHOULD
    CHECK AGAIN IN CASE IT'S CHANGED.
    
    BOB O.
    

    Nope, my wire comes right thru the sill of the house and down into
    the ground.  Where it comes out of the house it is covered with
    some piece of metal (and caulked) to prevent water from following
    the wire back into the house.
    
    -al

    
    
    	I put an outside metal pole light outside my house 10 years
    ago. I dug down about 2 feet and cemented the hole with an 80 pound
    bag of sakrete. I used outside wire and drilled a hole in my foundation
    to the cellar. My light still looks brand new and have had no problems
    other than my horizontal pole being ripped off in the first 5 minutes
    by my son !
    

    When I dug up a flower bed next to my house I discovered the wires
    to my pole light.  The wires (2 singles, seperate wires) were merely
    run from a junction box, through the concrete foundation, out into
    the flower bed (no more 12" deep).  No conduit, no GFCI.  I guess
    I'll add this to the list of "To Do" items.
    
    Are there special conduits for underground burial that are water
    proof?  What attaches to the foundation where the wire comes out?

RE: 1338.21

>    Are there special conduits for underground burial that are water
>    proof?  What attaches to the foundation where the wire comes out?

	Yes there are special conduits/techniques for underground installation
	and fortunately for us DIYers there is plastic conduit.  To pass
	through your foundation enlarge the hole so you can pass the conduit
	through and mount a box on the adjacent (inside) side.  Depending 
	on your basement you may or may not have to run conduit from this
	box up in to your floor joists, this would be the case in an
	unfinished basement; in a finished basement you would just fish the
	wire to the box.  This does need to be GFCI protected and you may
	want to consider a switch at the junction box.

	McPartland's book is a good reference for conduit installations.

	Good Luck Randy

I was talking with a (20yr exp.) electrican friend of mine (no axe to
grind, no services to sell), told him that I have voltage drops on a
given circuit when a high-current device (A/C, vacuum) cuts in.  Told
me something interesting:

He says that part of my problem is that the outlets in my house were
wired by pushing the wire in the hole in the back.  He says that the
spring connection is far poorer than the screw connection.  The spring
connection is a high-resistance connection - this contributes to my
voltage drop, and can cause a fire because of the IR drop.  Not only
should I rewire the hi-draw outlet with screw connections, but I
should rewire ALL my outlets, because any outlet in the run from the
box to the hi-draw outlet is connected with spring type connections.
He says the push-in connectors sould be outlawed.

My Fluke 73 couldn't detect any measurable different in the resistance 
per se.

Comments?  Flames? (:-})

    (Hi, Jeff..)
    
    Yup, I had to do that when I put an air conditioner in my fanily
    room (before I decided to bite the bullet and add a separate circuit..)
    A standard multimeter won't show the resistance difference for a
    couple of reasons: first, the resistance is so low anyway (my fluke
    8021B always shows "0"), and second, the resistance goes up as the
    connection heats up -- thus there is a snowball (fireball?) effect.
    In my case, there were five (!) back-wired connections between the
    outlet of interest and the breaker box..
    
    On any new work I do, and whenever I have to re-wire an existing
    outlet, I change it from back-wire to side-wire... I just haven't
    had the time to go over the whole house top-to-bottom yet (which
    I eventually will..)  So far, I've only done the circuits that get
    some use (like total loads over about 4 amps..)
    
    ...tek

    Using the back-stab method (that is what my old boss used to call them)
    only saves installation time.  The connections loosen up over time
    and screw other things up.  I just replaced four outlets in my sisters
    house that had been back-stabbed.  I may get around to do her entire
    house because it was all done that way.
    
    	I have never back-stabbed when doing wiring because of the problems
    it causes after you leave (and maybe years down the road). 
    
    mac

This issue has already been discussed in this conference, and the discussion 
agreed with the comments made here.  I did a large-scale wiring job a couple 
of months later, and I would have done it the easy way if it hadn't been for 
that discussion.

Finding that old discussion is beyond my skill and/or patience.  If somebody 
finds it, would you kindly post appropriate pointers, or send me MAIL so I
can do so?  

    				Yours for a more useful HOME_WORK,
    					DCL

I remember reading something awhile back that suggested that screw 
connections can come loose over the years - is this b*s* - or just a 
lesser hazard?

      Even if that is true, how could that be worse than the push-in
    connection which isn't even tight to begin with? I'll stick to using
    the screw terminals.
    
    					Kenny

RE: .0, .1

>    A standard multimeter won't show the resistance difference for a
>    couple of reasons: first, the resistance is so low anyway (my fluke
>    8021B always shows "0"), and second, the resistance goes up as the
>    connection heats up -- thus there is a snowball (fireball?) effect.
    
	Agreed; however there is also a third effect which you forgot to
	mention, a multimeter measures dc resistance and what you have is
	an ac circuit.  The heating effects not only the resistance but
	also the capacitance and inductance of the connection.

	Did anyone else ever notice that the better grade outlets don't
	even have the back connections on them?  Personally I always
	hated the feel of pushing a wire into one of those back connects
	you get very little contact, two edges of spring metal instead
	of full contact between the screw head and baseplate.  

	RW

The push in connections in my parents house lasted about 7 years.  Some 
of the outlets became intermittent, but most just plain failed.  Over the 
last year, I've rewired essentially every outlet in the house.

BTW, the existing outlets were so cheap, most of them broke when torqueing 
the screws.  The push-ins corrode; they're not very reliable.  I think the 
"code" should bannish push-in connnections.  

My electrician says he'd never use the push-ins. 

...bill

Ok, ok, - so push-ins are the pits.  Now, before the 98% of us who 
never touched our wiring and thus probably have push-ins panic, can 
anyone quantify the danger, the warning signs, which outlets to give 
the most attention to?

    	I don't know of a sure fire way to tell where to start but be
    prepared to replace any "push-in" outlet that you come across. 
    Every time I come across one of those %#*@ things it breaks off 
    while removing the outlet/switch from the wall.
                              
    Glenn

    I good indicator is the FIRST sign of blinking or any sound
    or "electrical" odor.  This applies to any outlet, if these
    occur find out what is wrong.
    
    I believe that the chance of fire is much less than the kind
    of problems due to Aluminum branch wiring used in the 60's
    and early 70's. The problem with push in outlets is exactly
    the same as a lose fitting, worn out outlet. A poor copper
    to copper connection.
    
    If anything seems strange, check it out, if you open up a
    box and find push ins, replace them, if an outlet is worn,
    do the same. 

    - gerry

    Ditto to all the above.  I had an outlet that wasn't working, and
    finally traced the problem to the push-in connections on the outlet
    in the box it was wired from.  
    I've never noticed screws loosening up if they were reasonably
    tight to begin with, even when undoing old (50+ years) outlets when
    rewiring.  In any case, screw connections have so much more surface 
    area I think the wire would have to be practically falling off to
    give as poor a connection as the push-ins.

    Might the use of these push-in outlets be the cause of static
    on my TV (and sometimes, a quit and ever so slight dimming of
    the lights) when a light or a small appliance (mixer, hair dryer)
    is turned on?

    This is in a brand new home with 200amp service.  I'm pretty sure
    the electrician used the quit push-in connections on the back of
    the outlets/switches.
    
    Another question.  From some of the replies, it sounds like the
    push-in outlets were replaced with different ones versus simply
    rewiring these outlets to use the side screws.  If so, why? 
    Isn't it just as good to use the side screws on the original
    outlets?
    
    Thanks,
     Bill
    

    I put a pole lamp in a couple of weeks ago and I ran the wire thru
    conduit (UF wire too) thru the foundation to the junction box
    that goes to a switch near the front door.  I bought a Sears Best
    pole to mount the light.  It has a weatherproof outlet which I
    plan to use when trimming shrubs.  It also has a photocell on it
    that automatically turns the light on at dusk and off at dawn.
    I basically leave the inside switch on all the time now.  The
    switch controls the all power to the pole so you can turn off the
    outlet if you want.  Last week the lamp was turning on at about
    8:30 PM.  Just about the right time for the light to go on.  The
    photoswitch also has a delay on it so car lights and kids cannot
    play with it.  You have to hold your hand over the photocell for
    about 2 minutes in the afternoon before the light will turn on and
    then it will extinguish itself in about a minute.
    
    There you have it!
    
    Gerry
    

    RE: .14
    
>        Isn't it just as good to use the side screws on the original
>    outlets?

    I think this is what was meant.  I think all of the push in outlets
    also have the screw terminals.

RE: 14

Some outlets are just plain cheap.  I replaced my pushins with new 
outlets because the old ones were falling apart.  The house was less 
than a year old when this first happened.  Use good quality outlets in 
high use areas like a kitchen. They won't break or get loose.

bill_who_HATES_push_ins

    They did (and maybe they still do) make outlets/switches without
    terminal screws on them. 
    
    At that point you have no option but to replace!
    
    mac

Re .14:
    
>   Might the use of these push-in outlets be the cause of static
>   on my TV (and sometimes, a quit and ever so slight dimming of
>   the lights) when a light or a small appliance (mixer, hair dryer)
>   is turned on?
    
    Probably not.  Because of the finite yet small resistance in the
    house's wiring, the turning on of an appliance causes a ripple in
    the voltage delivered (motors and other larger appliances will also
    cause an inductive component to be briefly introduced).

    Jim

    
    
    	Just to play Devils Advocate for a minute.
    
    	Would not U.L. have picked up on the fact that these outlets
    are a hazard ?
    
    	Wouldn't wiring inspectors say NO to them if they are a problem?
    
    	Wouldn't manufactures discontinue allowing these push-ins if
    they did not work and saving the extra cost to build ?
    
    	It just sounds like alot of talk about something that really
    isn't a problem.......
    
    
	Any comments ??????   (Like I really don't expect to get any !!!)

    	-Steve-
        

    
>    	Would not U.L. have picked up on the fact that these outlets
>       are a hazard ?
 
    It takes a while for problems so show up, the world loved
    aluminum wiring in the 60's, the big problems started showing
    up 10 years later.
    
    As I mentioned before, I don't believe this is much of a
    fire hazard since you get the same situation (poor copper
    to copper connection) in any worn outlet. The biggest problem
    is poor connections interrupting the power.
    
    - gerry

    I think UL and the NEC are worried primarily about safety, not
    quality per se.  The push-in connections aren't a fire hazard,
    so UL and the NEC accept them; whether they work or not after
    5 or 10 years is inmaterial.
    

    I have to re-wire my pole light.  Currently there are 2 seperate,
    unprotected wires going thru the foundation about 10 feet to the
    light.  Eventually this wire will have to pass under or thru a
    concrete walk.
    
    I just saw some metal sheathed, pre-wired electrical conduit at
    Somerville Lumber (12/2) that looks ideal for this application.
    Has anybody used this stuff before?  It looks like aluminum sheathing
    on the outside.  It says it is UL approved and meets NEC Article
    334, whatever that addresses.  Do I really need this outside sheathing
    or is UF wire adequate for this application?
    
    It is currently on sale $13.99 for 25' (reg. $18.99) and $24.99
    for 50' (reg. 33.99) until Aug. 15th.  This sounds pretty steep
    but I guess you pay for convenience.

    re .19
    
    Actually, I didn't want to stick my neck, but since you brought it up,
    I was somewhat surprised to see this topic come up. I have installed
    and used electrical outlets for years, have almost always used the
    push-in connectors, and have never had any problems of this kind. Of
    course, if you have one bad experience like this it is going to sour
    you on the idea. My experience, on the other hand, has been problems
    with screw terminals. I have often removed old outlets (installed by
    somebody else) that shorted out because the screw terminals came in
    contact with the side of the box. This can easily happen because by the
    time you wrap a good sized wire around the post the screw head sticks
    out somewhat, and if its not pushed into the box carefully, could come
    close to the side. Any slight shift in the outlet, and you have a
    potential fire and life hazard. For this reason I have always screwed
    all of the screws all the way in, and used the push-in connectors.
    
    Obviously this wouldn't happen if the work was done carefully. But
    since I never had a good reason not to use the push-in connectors
    before, why take the risk of using the screw terminals?
    
    Having read the previous replies to this note I'm unconvinced,
    but uncertain. Any other opinions?

Push in connections don't work well.  I've spoken to two contractor 
friends and both of them will not wire a house with pushins.  They only 
save installation time..   As I mentioned in an earlier reply, I had outlets 
stop working within a year after installation because of push in corrosion.

If you're still not convinced, you can come to my house and I can show you 
4 or 5 outlets that DON'T work right now, 'cause I haven't changed them yet.

pushins stink, plain and simple,
...bill

    RE: .22
    
    I think the discussion here is that everything being equal (ie, both
    connections done correctly mechanically and procedurally), the push-in
    terminals MAY cause more problems than screw terminals.  Push-ins
    may be safer in the ways you suggest, but cause problems in another
    ways.

When I moved into my house, I had a well-recommended, old-timer type
electrician put in GFIs in the bathrooms, as well as a lot of other
work.  My impression (and the impression of some others who have
looked) was that he slightly over-did his work in that he used more
classic methods as opposed to newer cheaper ones (ran wiring in a tube
as opposed to just running romex in unfinished areas). Certainly he
was in no real rush to finish his work. 

I took a look last night, for all the GFI's he used push-ins. 

Not a justification, just a note that even if you think your house was
'carefully' done, push-ins may be more commonly used than we think. 

    
    	About the screws working loose and shorting against the box.....
    
    		Am I the only person who wraps electrical tape around
    the screw terminals before putting it into the box?
    
    						=Ralph=

    RE: -
    
    	No you are not, I do this when using old-work boxes and 12-2
    wire.  I also use a BIG screw driver to put alot of torque on the
    un-used terminal screws.
    
    mac

    According to my electrician, UF wire is ok for underground work...but
    he does recommend using some type of conduit if you go under a walk
    way or driveway...  just in case you have to remove it some day..you
    can slide the wire in and out easily.
    
    Bob O.
    

re: .28

	I've used the tape around the terminals idea for some time now,
after seeing my uncle use that method for the past 20 years he's been
an electrician....

    Someone a few back asked if push-in problems could cause TV
    interference - definite *yes*. My parents had exactly that problem.
    TV would snow up, a lamp on the same circuit would dim a bit, and
    if you listened at the breaker box, you could hear the breaker hum
    every time it happened. I looked for a short, it took the electrician
    to finally find the bad push-ins - next time I'll know.  -Tom R.

    Sears was marketing some post lights of the same variety; looks
    better built.
    
    /cal

My experience reading mail order catalogs (and we get 4 or more every day
in the fall) is that nobody can touch the prices in The Sharper Image -
every item that I've seen in another catalog was more expensive if
ordered from The Sharper Image. 

	Larry

    If you read the find print in some of the ads for the solar
    walklights, it seems they're good for a maximum of 5 hours after
    a full day of sun. In the winter, I would interpret that as meaning
    you'll be lucky if they're still on at 9pm.
    
    Besides, I'd be nervous putting them anyplace I really needed
    to be able to light, regardless of the weather earlier in the
    day.
    
    They're certainly intriguing. I'd be more interested if I had
    some indication that they stayed lit longer (8-12 hours on a
    so-so day would be more like it).

Only problem with these solar lights is that they only have a small, flashlight
type bulb.  Don't know the wattage, but it is pretty dim.  Not sure how well
it would illuminate a walkway.  My mom has one in her flower garden to show
off some of her favorite flowers during the evening hours.  She only uses it
during the summer.  To maximize the area lighted, we connected the light to
a larger pole, so it stood farther from the ground.

Bill

    
    	Also, consider how many of the lights you would need to install.
    At $49 a piece, it could quickly become cheaper to have an installer
    put in regular lights for you.  (I don't know the figures for the
    various options to calculate the break-even point, but $49 a light
    sounds high to me, especially given the other problems mentioned
    in the other replies.)
    
    							-craig

    I've got what I hope is a real simple wiring question...if it's
    "legal."  One outlet, with 2 outlets to run off it.  Can it be done
    and how?
    
    Due to the fact that I don't want to tear out walls to put in new
    outlets, I have one outlet with power and I want to run 2 outlets
    from it.  How could I do it?  An outlet has 5 screws - 2 black,
    2 white and a green (ground.)  The power wire to the outlet is simple
    - White wire to a white screw, black to black and ground to green.
    How about the 2 wires coming off?  Can I splice the 2 blacks and
    run them to the other black screw, splice the white wires to the other
    white screw, and splice the ground wires and ground them to the box? 
     
    Any help is appreciated and is this "legal?"  Thanks.
    
    

    Provided that the circuit can handle the additional outlets, no
    problem.  No more than 3 outlets on a 20AMP circuit in a kitchen.
    I don't know abuot the other areas fro 20A or for 15A.
    
    Don't wire like you propose though.  Wire the outlets in series.
    i.e.  Run a black wire to a new outlet then a black from that to
    the second additional outlet.  Same goes for ground and the white
    wire.  Don't forget that for metal boxes, the box itself must be
    tied to the ground wire.
    

    .1's way is the simplest, but you can do it out of the same box
    if you really have to.  You'll need three short lengths of wire:
    black, white, and ground.  Twist all the black wires together
    (incoming black, outgoing black #1, outgoing black #2, and the
    short pigtail lead) together and put a big wire nut on the end;
    same for the white and ground.  Use the short pigtail leads to
    wire the outlet in that box, and the other outgoing wires to the
    other two boxes.  However, you'll need a pretty big box to get
    all those wires and splices into it.  If you can string everything
    along from one box to the next, as .1 suggests, it won't get as
    crowded.
    
    Note: if you have a metal box, you should have TWO short pigtail
    ground leads, one to go to the outlet and one to go to the ground
    screw on the outlet.  The theory is that you should be able to
    remove the outlet without disturbing the grounding of the box or
    any of the wires coming into or leaving the box.

    The amount of wires in a box is not simply a quesation of how many
    will fit, but the Electrical Code specifies the amount for each
    box size! Unfortunately, I don't have my code book with me, but
    any book store with a home improvement section should have a copy
    of the NEC book. Going from box to box as in .1 is the usual way
    for designing a service.
    
    Eric
    

re "is it legal?"

You (.0) don't say where you're located, and that may make a difference.  
Some states and localities have their own, modified versions of the
National Electrical Code.  Furthermore, different states and localities
have different laws about whether homeowners can perform their own wiring,
and about the permit and inspection requirements.

Realistically, local NEC modifications shouldn't affect the project
described in .0 (assuming I understand it - it's not very clear).  And
worrying about permits and inspections seems like overkill for a one-box
circuit extension.  But you did ask about legality.

    I'm not one the experts that the previous reply-authors are (I keep seeing
their names on replies concerning electrical questions), but I don't recall
seeing wire capacity (correct term?) mentioned in their replies.  The service?
(15 or 20 amps) must correlate to the capacity? (gauge?) of the wires used.
Mixing and matching can be risky.
    For example, using 14 guage wire on a 20 amp circuit - plug in a toaster
and an iron or something and the wire can overheat and be a fire risk before
the circuit trips.  Also, extending an existing 14 guage wiring setup with 12
guage may cause problems between the new outlet and the main box.
    Experts - are these illustrations correct?  

    Usually, wall outlets are 20 amp service, but anything is possible.
    You must match the extension wiring to the existing service capacity
    and size (14 guage-15 amp, 12 guage-20 amp) for both code and safety.
    Another factor is the number of outlets already on the branch service.
    If I remember right, you were usually limited to 6 by code, so if
    .0 is there already, he may have to run a new service.
    
    Eric
    

    re: last few
    My experience is that wall outlets are usually 15 amp, but the trend
    may be to 20 amp in newer houses, I'm not sure.
    The points raised are well taken though - there's more to adding
    outlets than simply connecting up a few wires.  We've responded
    to the question asked: "Is it legal?", and the answer is "Yes."
    However, "yes" assumes one follows all the other rules in addition
    to the description of how to connect the wires.  None of it is very 
    hard, but there ARE rules concerning just about every detail of
    wiring.  Wire sizes.  Box sizes.  Types of staples.  Where to PUT
    the staples!  If you're unfamiliar with the details, study some of the
    wiring books recommended in other notes in this file.  (Also read
    the other wiring notes in this file - lots of good information!)

    Speaking of outlets, I have a question.
    
    We just moved into our first house (it's 30 years old.) We wanted 
    to hook up the DECmate in the spare room, but it had 2-prong outlets 
    with 2 white, 2 black, and NO ground wire. My step-father replaced 
    them with 3-prong but I need to know if the outlet is grounded now 
    that I've installed one of those 6-outlet surge suppressor power 
    strips. Is it safe?
                            
    Also, is an outlet technically grounded after installing one of
    those ground adapter plugs (that attach to the screw on the wall
    plate?)
    
    Thanks,
    Mike
        

Questions about upgrading 2-prong outlets to 3-prong have appeared elsewhere 
in this conference, usually buried in other discussions (as this one is). 

The key question is whether the box is grounded:

    - If the service to the box is old 2-wire Romex, for example, then the
      box is not grounded.

    - If there's a special grounding wire to the box, say running from a 
      nearly water pipe, then the box is probably improperly grounded.
      There's some disagreement about whether this situation is better or
      worse than nothing.

    - If the service to the box is BX (armored cable) without a grounding
      strip, then the box is poorly grounded.  This situation is probably
      better than nothing.

    - If the service to the box has a dedicated ground wire, grounding
      strip, or properly installed solid conduit, then the box is almost
      certainly well grounded.

It's not a trivial matter to determine which of these cases you're facing.
You can use a test lamp, or better still a voltmeter, to get some clues.
Personally, if I can't tell how good the ground to a box is, I won't work
on that box (I'll replace the service first).

If the box is properly grounded, then the use of standard wiring techniques
and materials (including the ground adapter plug .8 mentioned) will bring a
pretty good ground out to the device.  If the box is not properly grounded,
all the techniques and materials in the world won't do you a bit of good. 

Some of the above comments only apply to metal boxes, not plastic ones. But
has anybody seen ungrounded service in plastic boxes? 

See topic 1980 for more information on grounding.

    After reading .0, it's obvious at least to me that the author has
    a very limited knowledge of wiring, and perhaps has never done any
    wiring before.  Thus, before getting into a long discussion about
    wire sizes, number of wires per box, the legality of what's being
    done, etc., I'd strongly recommend the author purchase and read
    one of the many good books available on wiring.
    
    Let's face it...  if you ignore the first rule (which not a single
    reply has yet stated), namely turn off the power before working
    on the circuit, how many wires of what size you have in that box
    isn't going to be your biggest problem!
    
    Any good book should answer your question, which is really quite
    basic.  Something else you may wish to look into is the "on the
    wall" type wiring packages, which provide a metal strip which is
    fastened to the wall's outer surface, and through which the wires
    are then pulled.  As an earlier reply suggested, try to scan the
    other wiring notes -- one of them talked about this type of wiring
    extension system.
    
    Jim

      Re: .7
    
      Great idea!  I needed to go under my walkway but didn't want to
    dig it up. I didn't use a tube but just used a hose pipe with
    the nozzle giving a high pressure stream of water.  I just guided
    the hose and it dug the hole under the walkway for me.  Sure I got
    a little dirty but now I don't have to repair the walkway!  Thanks
    for sharing that idea.
    
    -Jim

Given you're new to wiring:

1. YOU CAN KILL YOURSELF IF YOU DO IT WRONG.
2. YOU CAN CREATE A LIFE-THREATENING HAZARD TO OTHERS IF YOU DO IT WRONG.

(Just so there's no confusion)
                                        
Doing it "right" is comparatively easy.

    I have two questions about outdoor wiring, and after reading all
    the applicable notes I did not find the necessary information.
    
    All wiring will be inside PVC conduit, so can I use regular romex
    cable, or is the UF (outdoor or direct burial) cable still required?
    
    I'd like to put a spotlight in a tree.  Is there anything in the
    code that says I can't surface mount a weather-proof box w/light
    fixture in a tree?  As stated above, I'll be running everything
    in PVC conduit, including the run from the bottom of the tree to
    the light.
    
    This is an extension of an already existing GFI'd circuit.
    
    Thanks in advance for any answers.
    

    I doubt there are any code restrictions on mounting the light in
    the tree at least not here in colorado as I have one and recently
    had an electrical inspection done with no problems.
    If you use UF wire you shouldent have to use the conduit unless
    you want to note that UF wire is not the easiest thing to work with
    and all that pulling sounds like work.
    
    -j
    

    
    
    	The best answer(s) should be obtained from your building
    	inspector or (town) Wire Department.
    
    	However, now in the process of completing outdoor wiring
    	I'll tell you what my town Wire Dept told me:
    
    	a.  ANY vertical run must be made with rigid style conduit
            not EMT/thin wall or PVC.
    
        b.  UF cable MUST be used underground/outside.  Depending
            upon what is used for tubing, burial depth is different.
          
    	Note:  since I was wiring both outside outlets and a shed, I
    	       was also told it was possible to install "overhead"
               wiring - vertical rigid at the house with UF suspended
               to the shed, with vertical rigid on the shed (and any
               associated weather grommits, seals, LB fittings, etc.)
    	       But I wasn't interested.
    
    	Again, maybe someone in this file can help you but a quick
        call should provide you the correct "legal" information.
    
    

      RE .2:
    
      >        Note:  since I was wiring both outside outlets and a shed, I
      >	       was also told it was possible to install "overhead"
      >        wiring - vertical rigid at the house with UF suspended
      >        to the shed, with vertical rigid on the shed (and any
      >        associated weather grommits, seals, LB fittings, etc.)
      >	       But I wasn't interested.
      
    Where do you live?  In most towns around my area (Quincy MA) I have
    been told that the only overhead wiring allow was that done by the
    Electric companies.  If you had to go to a shed you had to dig (18" I
    think). 
    
    brian

    is the tree still growing?  if the light is permanently mounted
    in the tree, won't that pull the wires out of the ground?
    
    bs

    re .4
    
    Trees don't grow from the base, they grow from the top.  A branch
    that is 6 feet above the ground at the trunk will always be 6 feet
    above the ground.
            
    Bob

    
    
    	<<.3>>
    
    		I live in Leominster.  Requirements are 6" min for
                Rigid conduit (galvanized steel pipe).  Although I
                did not "clear" the overhead wiring option with the
                Wire Department, a licensed electrican (who I had
                consulted) stated it was a legal option and how to
                do it correctly.  It seemed more work than running
                the trench, so I chose the trench.  He told me that
                there were applications though, like crossing a
                driveway...
    
               	By the way, 18" depth was required for PVC where I
                live.
    

    Does anyone know of any books on outdoor lighting?  I would like some
    ideas and techneques for designing and installing.  Any help would
    be appre.
    
     Rick
    

RE:2428.0 by MAGIC::COTE >

	Hi Bill-

>    All wiring will be inside PVC conduit, so can I use regular romex
>    cable, or is the UF (outdoor or direct burial) cable still required?

    You must use either UF type cable or approved single conductor type
    wiring inside a sealed conduit.  Depending on the lengths of your
    runs it may be worthwhile to use conduit where it exits and enters the
    ground and direct burial elsewhere.  i.e.

                                                                /---||##
                                                              _/ /_ ||##
                                                              |   | ||##
                                                               \_/  ||##
                                                                    ||##
                                                                    ||##
                                                                    ||##
                                                                    ||##
             (at pool)                        (at fence)            ||##
                                                                    ||##
              [ O O ]                          [ O O ]              ||##
               || ||                            || ||               ||##
               || ||                            || ||               ||##
       ==================================================================
               || ||                            || ||               ||
               // \\                            // \\               ||
              //   \\                          //   \\              //
             //     \\                        //     \\            //
       ------+       +------------------------+       +------------+

      Existing   |    New   ---->
    
	|| conduit  + bushing  --- UF cable  === ground level  ## tree

     If you added a box at the tree and ran three wire to there you
     could have a service outlet and a switched wire for your lamp,
     your going to run the wire anyway so the difference for 3 wires
     isn't much.

>    I'd like to put a spotlight in a tree.  Is there anything in the
>    code that says I can't surface mount a weather-proof box w/light
>    fixture in a tree?  As stated above, I'll be running everything
>    in PVC conduit, including the run from the bottom of the tree to
>    the light.

	This is a definite check with the local wiring inspector because
	towns do vary quite a bit.  I expect you can do this but one
	inspector might allow plastic while another requires rigid steel.

	Except where the wire needs to come out of the ground to connect 
	to an outlet or light I'd keep it buried.  Don't attach a run to
	the back of a fence or anything that is semi-permanent if possible.

	The more you can bury the less conduit you have to buy, the more
	its protected.
    
     My personal experiences with the local inspector have been very pleasant
     and helpful, he actually saved me some work.  The key is to have a plan
     with fair detail worked out and specifics duly noted, he hasn't the time
     to map the project out for you; But he will check and comment if you
     have something to work from.  Also get yourself a copy of Richter's
     Practical Wiring this is not the paperback sold at Spag's (paper is a
     condensed version) but a hardback covering all that you ask and much more.

					Happy wiring and good luck - Randy

I am looking for suggestions on heat insulating material.  I have
a set of incandescent floodlights mounted close to a wood frame and
I'm afraid after a while the wood will start to smolder and possibly
catch fire.  The floodlights are kept on all night.  Instead of moving
the lights I would like to slip some insulating material between the
light and the wood.  

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Steve

    
    	Try some of the fiberglas heat material sold in hardware stores
    and plumbing supplies to retard soldering flames used by plumbers.
    It is about as thick as thin cardboard.  Aluminum sheet metal also
    does a good job of dissipating heat.

    Aluminum sheet metal does not do a good job of dissipating heat.
     Rather, it conducts the heat once it becomes hot.  For the sheet
    metal to be useful, it must NOT be touching the wood.  I doubt this
    would be either feasible or desirable.
    
    Ed..
    

I am looking for wholesaler/retail outlets in the southern NH area, or 
catalog companies, that carry brass/copper colonial/early american style
outdoor light fixtures.  Ive tried quite a few places but havent found the
right one yet.  

thanx

    Yankee Craftsman on Rt. 30 in Wayland, MA specializes in antique and
    reproduction lighting.  They have a barn full of antique light fixtures
    (both indoor and outdoor), an amazing collection of lamp parts (from
    which they can make up reproductions and hybrids), and an encyclopedic
    knowledge of the history of lighting.  You don't need to wait to talk
    to the old guy; the kids know their stuff too.  A world-class
    operation, in my opinion.

    LOOKING FOR COPPER AND BRASS COLONIAL OUTDOOR LIGHTS, TRY THE HARBOR
    LIGHTS STORE ON ROUTE 1 IN HAMPTON NH.
    

    For high quality, hand-made copper, brass and pewter indoor and
    outdoor colonial lighting fixtures, contact Heritage Lanterns in
    Yarmouth, Maine.  They have a catalog they will send you - or if
    you are in Yarmouth, they have a small showroom.
    
    There stuff is top of the line - I bought both indoor and outdoor
    fixtures when building my house and the quality is excellent.  But
    ... as I said, they are not cheap.  Every October, or thereabouts,
    they have a 15% off sale of anything in the catalog.

     Patti Bros. on Rt. 20 in Wayland also has a very nice selection
    of high-quality lighting 
    

    I'm trying to figure out the best way to mount a couple of 4"x4"x6'
    sq. wooden patio lamps on my concrete patio.  Right now I considering
    deck post mount hw, (will require gouging out a couple of holes
    to anchor mounts), but I'm concerned that there isn't enough support
    at the lamp bases to keep them steady and straight.  I've also
    considered adding a couple of L brackets in addition to the mounts
    for added support.  The alternative is to anchor the the lamp posts
    themselves in the cement, but if I ever want to move or repair them
    it could be a real bear.  Maybe some kind of sleeve to slip the
    posts into?  Lamps are red cedar.  Any ideas folks?
                                                   

    If they are semi-permanent, you might give some thought to building
    them into planters made of the same material. This would provide you
    some stability, avoid digging into concrete, and add a nice touch
    to you patio. Cross/support members could be covered with soil and
    would not show, size and shape could be your choice.

    Bernie

    Why not try what Norm did on TOH? (kinda)
    
    Mount them onto the patio using the deck brackets that you use when
    installing a form seat for deck "legs".... then creat 'cap' with
    mitered cuts aroung the bottom to conceal the bracket?
    
    If the post is only 6', I see no problem with this holding.
    and with the baseboard style cap, you could always remove  it and
    easily remove the pole for whatever reason.
    
    I am not sure if I said this correct, so if someone else can state
    it more clear, feel free.
    
    AL

    Why not pre-drill the base of the post(s) to accept a length of
    pipe? After all, the wiring will be inside the pipe, protected,
    and the pipe will offer substantial support for the posts.
    If you change anything in the future, the pipe which is set into
    the patio, can be removed, and the hole filled.
      Even if you reduce the size of the pipe to be comfortable
    with the remaining thickness of the posts, (after drilling) a
    galvanized pipe will out - last wood set into dirt. Also, the
    base of the post(s) can be raised a number of ways, just to
    clear the patio so as to allow any rain, wash water, etc; to
    minimize rotting.
      If the post is raised, the previous note has a fine solution
    to give the post(s) a flush fit appearance.
                                Just 'nother thought,,,,,,
                                                        Jim
    
      Be sure to use a G.F.C.I. breaker.          
                    Just  another thought!
                                                     Jim

Hello electrical experts,

Please excuse my ignorance for the following questions as i did not
see this topic addressed before...

I am planning on installing an out door light on a pole in front
of my house.  Where would i find a wood light pole?  I checked
Sommerville and they only had one PT pole which looked alright.
Is the obvious answer to check a lighting store?  Do they also carry
poles?  I've seen all kinds in people's yards.

Upon perusal of the pole from Somerville, i noticed that the hole (top of pole)
for the wiring apparently does not go all the way through.  
How do i run the wire from the pole to the house?  Does it come
through the pole above ground or underground?   Should i use
conduit or just bury regular 14/3 outdoor wiring?  Is this the correct
wiring to use?- seems like overkill for only one light.

How deep should i bury the wiring?

How about the linkage through the house?  Should i drill through the 
sill (terminology?)?  If so then do i use any sort of wiring 'brace'?

Please help this amatuer.

Thanks.

-jim

    JIM, I HAVE JUST RECENTLY GONE THROUGH YOUR FRUSTRATION MY PROBLEM WAS
    THAT I HAVE BUILT A 1800 REPRO.  BUT ANYWAY TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION YOU
    SHOULD BE ABLE TO PURCHASE LAMP POST AT A LUMBER YARD, AND YES THE HOLE
    IS DRILLED ALL THE WAY THROUGH THE CENTER TO THE BASE.  THE UNDERGROUND
    WIRE IS SUFFICIENT AND I HAVE ONLY PUT MINE DOWN ABOUT SIX INCHES BELOW
    THE SURFACE JUST REMEMBER WHERE THE CABLE IS SO NOT TO CUT IN THE
    FUTURE.  AS FAR AS CONNECTED INTO THE HOUSE JUST DRILL THROUGH THE SILL
    AND USE A SILICON CAULKING TO SEAL THE HOLE. IF YOU HAVE ANY FURTHER
    QUESTIONS CALL ME AT DTN. 282-1129
    
    GOOD LUCH IT'S NOT THAT HARD, BELIEVE I DID IT.
    LEN

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DCL [Moderator]

    re .17 and .18
    
    
    12 inches is deep enough. NEC 300-5 exception #4 says <300 volts, <30
    amps, residential, 12 inches is OK
    
    JB

re .27:

>    12 inches is deep enough. NEC 300-5 exception #4 says <300 volts, <30
>    amps, residential, 12 inches is OK

Is that "<30 amps" really "less than 30 amps" or "thirty amps or less"?
I'm planning adding a 30 amp service to a barn.

-Mike, who wonders if anyone sells a 29 amp circuit breaker...

    
    
      It has been over two years since anybody has discussed solar power
    lights. Does anyone own them? I want them for my front and back
    walkways. Both areas do get plenty of sun on sunny days. What brands
    are the best? How well do they work? If you get a couple of cloudy
    days in a row what's the outcome?  What else should I know about
    them?
    
    
    

    Re .6
    
    We bought one to try it out and thank our lucky stars we didn't spend
    money on any more of them.  The illumination is inadequate and the
    light fades out after a couple/few hours.  That would be frustrating
    if you had guests leaving late in evening, etc.  We ended up with 
    the low voltage ones and are really pleased with them - we put them
    on timers and now the lights are on when we want them to be on.
    
    The only way I would consider them would be for a very remote part
    of the garden where it wasn't practical to run the wires.
    
    ep

    
    Re:7
          Thanks for the info.!

    Ditto .7, however our light only gets about 4 hours of sun.  I have
    seen good write-ups about the Arco solar lights if you do decide to
    buy.

    Ditto on .7. Ours gets full sun most of the day and the illumination
    isn't even equal to that of a flashlight and it lasts only a few
    hours. Waste of money.
    
    Mike

I need to improve the lighting in our backyard.  Right now, I have 2 standard 
150W floods mounted in a box directly over our walkout basement door.  Since 
the solution is temporary (position will change in a year or 2 with an 
addition), I would like to avoid repositioning the box.  What I want to do 
is to replace the 2 floods with 2 halogen ($10 specials at BJ's) security 
lights (these are about 6x9 rectangular jobs).  BUT, they bump into each other
when mounted on the box.  

Questions:

	Are there 1-2" pieces of extension tubing that I could use?  Screw 
	these in the box, and screw the lights into the extension tubes?

	Am I going to run into trouble with 600W of lighting in the box 
	instead of the current 300W?  

				-JP

JP

So far, you spent about $14 for the incadescent bulbs. When you
replace them with two $10 halogen lamps, that'll be $34 so far.
If you had gotten a high pressure sodium vapor 50watt lamp for
$49, you'd been ahead of it all and used a lot less power.

pay up front or pay later.

cal

Correction:

I paid $20 for 2 halogen lights.  These lights will be moved to 2 locations.
Compare this to spending $50 for the sodium light now plus another $50 later
for a second unit???

I'll pay up front, and save $80 to boot.

Anyone know of any parts that would help me solve the problem for under $80?
(I suppose I could get regular pip and thread the ends, add a female-female
coupler.)

    I disagree.  You may save money up front, but you'll spend more
    each month due to the higher power consumption of the halogen
    lamps compared to sodium ones with the same light output.
    
    And you're not paying up front, you're paying for the remainder
    of the life of the fixtures.
    
    And as electric rates continue to rise, you'll pay even more.

re last two. It is possible of course that he woulden't like the color rendition
of the sodium lamps depending on wether they are used only for security or
for lighting patio or game court. Most colors fade to a off yellow color under
the yellowish sodium whereas the quartz light give pure white light. I have a
quartz lamp I use in my garden even though it is bathed in light from my 
neighbors Hi pressure sodium light for free.

Now to the problem. Yes you could get away with a couple of 1/2"(I believe thats
the size maybe 3/4") pipe nipples and a coupling between be sure the threads
match. You might also be able to run a nipple over to another weather proof box
mounted beside the old one(is that a surface mount? if not you can get an 
extension box to mount to the front of the old one) and mount the 2nd light
on a new box. Total price $10-12 with new boxes.


-j 

re-.1
Quartz= halogen lest anyone be confused.

>> What I want to do is to replace the 2 floods with 2 halogen 

I replaced a pair of 150 watt flood lights with ONE Quartz-Halogen 
fixture and I found that the ONE Q-H light did better job of 
iluminating the driveway than the pair of flood lights. I was using a 
300 watt Q-H bulb, I can replace it with a 500 watt bulb if I want
more light, but I haven't found it necessary.

Charly

    >>Note 1082.15                
  >>	Are there 1-2" pieces of extension tubing that I could use?  Screw 
  >>  these in the box, and screw the lights into the extension tubes?

    
    To answer your original question, yes, these little  pieces  of tubing
    do exist.  I have seen them called offset nipples, and they are sold at
    Spag's in a little wooden cubbyhole in the electrical department.  They
    are  on  the  same  set of shelves as the oil burner  safety  shutoff's
    (firestats??) and the romex clamps you screw into junction boxes.

    Offset nipples will have the wrong gender at the end you need to put
    the lamp on (lamp is female, offset nipple is female on both ends).  
    You could add a 1/2" threaded coupling to the end but....   Depending
    on the length of the pig tails that come from the flood lamp holders
    you could do several things:
    
    	If long enough, you could use a short piece of threaded 1/2 pipe	
    (a nipple) and a 1/2 threaded coupling.
    
    	If the pig tails are too short you need a place to put the wire	
    nuts and what is refered to as an LB can be used.  A 1/2" threaded LB	
    with a gasket and cover ALONG with 1/2" nipple about 2" long	
    minimum will be needed (and a few 1/2" lock nuts).  You will need the
    nipple to connect the LB to your existing box.  I have used	this to
    offset lamp holders myself.
    
    bjm

    
    I just added a 1/2" couple and short 1/2 nipple to keep the lights from
    touching. I needed the two lights to better spread the light ( more
    coverage). I also put the two lights on a dimmer switch to set the light
    according to the need or my mood. Crank the dimmer way down and you got
    a nice night light and security. Crank the dimmer way up and you've got
    a great spread of 600 watts for night time activities.
    
    Bill                            

    re: .-1
    	Make sure that the dimmer will handle the 600 watts.  Some are only
    rated for 300 watts.

    RE: -1. Right. Forgot to mention that the dimmer MUST be rated for 600
    watts.
    
    Bill

    I've seen several different qualities of solar walk lites.  We got some
    from one of the liquidators (maybe Damark) that were pretty good, with
    relatively large solar panels, gel-cell batteries, and good solid
    construction.  We gave them to my parents for an island in the BWI
    (where electricity is 50 cents per KWHR!) and now they want some more!
    They don't shed a lot of light, but if all you want to know is where
    the path is, they work just fine.
    
    On the other tentacle, I've seen some in the same price range with
    about 1/4 the solar cell area, lower quality construction, NiCad
    batteries, etc.
    
    Willie

 
    
    Getting back  to  efficient  lighting, I ran across this little chart on
    page 511 of  the  latest  W W Grainger Catalog.  I found the comparison
    surprising, even though the chart does not compare equal light outputs.
    
    
    Type of lamp     2 x 150 Watt        500 Watt        70 Watt
                     par 38 floods     Quartz flood    High pressure sodium
    
    Power Used         300 w              500 w             70 w
    
    rated lumens
    light output       3480               10500             5400
    
    rated lamp
    life, hours        2000               2000            24000+
    
    relamp 
    requirements      4 lamp/year       2 lamp/year      1 lamp/6 years
    
    annual lamp
    cost               $12                $38              $6.67 *
    
    annual electric
    cost               $91.98            $153.30          $25.14
    
    
    total annual
    cost               $103.98            $191.30         $31.81
    
    
    * based on $40 lamp cost extended over 6 year life cycle.
    
    Above info based on 4380 burning hours per year at 7 cents per KWH
    
    Grainger sells a 70 W HP sodium fixture, complete with bulb, for $125.
    
    A quartz fixture costs about $15, I guess.
    
    After 2 years, it seems one will spend 191.30+191.30+15=$397.60
    on the quartz fixture, and 31.81+31.81+125=$188.62
    for the sodium fixture.
    
    
    

    Where do you get power for 7 cents/KWHR?  I'm moving! :+)
    
    Willie

    2 questions:
    
    Does the sodium lamp work around corners?
    
    And seriously, is the sodium lamp as white as the quartz?  or does it
    give off that hideous pink orange color that makes it impossible to
    find red cars in shopping center parking lots?

All sodium lights are orange-yellow in color, so the "hideous pink-orange
lights" that hide your red car are likely sodium lights.  High pressure
sodium lights are a little different color than low pressure, but both are
oranges.

-Mike

    Can anyone recommend a source for cast iron colonial light fixtures?
    
    Thanks.

    There is a lighting store on RT 20 in Sudbury (towards the eastern side
    of Sudbury).  It is in front of the Country Curtains store.  There's
    also a Mobil gas station nearby.
    
    -al

I think they're called DePatty's or something close to that, and they have a
*wonderful* stock.  If it's colonial, and it exists, they'll probably have it.

    The name is Patti Brothers.
    
    Bo

       I received a Northern Hydraulics catalog this week that has a good
    selection of solar light. The ones that really caught my eye had motion
    detectors in them so they only turn on when needed. Another feature
    they had was the ability to place the collector panel up to 12' away
    from the light. I may get one as the pricing was reasonable.
    
         Bob

    re. .12: Bob, could you post the address for Northern Hydraulics here?
    
    Thanks,
    Mike

    
     Here it is.
    
    Northern
    PO Box 1499
    Burnsville, MN 55337-0499
    
    800-533-5545
    
    
    		Wayne

    Builders Square  has a 70 watt high pressure sodium light fixture (bulb
    included) on sale for $37.50.  the fixture is made by General Electric,
    and it has a photoelectric cell on top so it only goes on after dark.
    
    I put one up, and it is bright!  fwiw, I have no problem telling colors
    apart in this light, red is quite obviously red, etc, etc.
    

    Also, there  was  an  article  in the wall street journal about 2 weeks
    ago which said that Boston edison was going to be selling those special
    energy efficient light bulbs  (uses  15 watts to provide the light of a
    100 watt tungsten bulb) for $3.00 each.  According to the article, these
    lights last much longer than normal  bulbs.    The writer added:  These
    light bulbs are not a free lunch, they are a lunch you are paid to eat!
    
    
        gjd

    Re .31, efficient INDOOR lights
    
    $3.00 is indeed a bargain, since these usually cost anywhere from
    $10 - 15.  The gotcha is that these are unfortunately much larger 
    in length and/or diameter than a normal lamp, which prohibits
    their use in the majority of light fixtures.
    
    Take measurements before you buy.
    
    pbm
    

    Where can one get these energy-efficient (15W gets you 100W) bulbs? 
    The only ones I've seen are the (15W gets you 60W) variety, but I want
    100W bulbs in my shop (though incancescents blow fuses...)
    
    Willie

    RE: .33
    
    The Lions (fraternal organization) are selling them for $3.00 apiece,
    (list price is around $20.00 each), and $2 of that will go to eye
    research.
    
    Bo

    There was  an  article  in the Home section of the Boston Globe on
    Friday  (in the column about various home products) on flourescent
    lights  that  were  about 4 times as efficent as incandescents and
    fit  in  incandescent style sockets. The company is in California,
    and I've asked them to send a catalog. Their lights do go up to 25
    Watts,  which  should  be  equivalent  to a 100w incandescent. The
    bulbs cost $20-$25 each.

--David

re .33:

I saw some of the lights of the type Boston Edison had a couple years ago at
Somerville Lumber in Acton.  They are also available (with lots of other
energy-concious stuff) at a place on Day St. in Fitchburg.  I don't know their
name, but these people are the ones the electric companies contract with for
their home energy audits.

Personally, I think their claims that an n watt light produces as much light as
an x watt incandescent are optimistic, but they still produce much more energy
per watt than the incandescents.

-Mike

    I bought a couple of them for experimentation.  I feel they are 
    particularly good for places where you leave the lights on alot.
    I put one in the basement where I had had a 60 watt incandescent and
    it was definitely brighter.  It claimed to be equivalent to a 75
    watter, so that should be about right.  It claims to be 18 watts
    itself.  
    					- Vick

    re: .33
    
    Lions, what Lions?  The number for the only one in the Boston phone
    book (in Chinatown) has been disconnected, and directory assistance has
    no number for them in the greater Boston area...
    
    re: .35
    
    Let us know what you find out about these bulbs...
    
    Willie

    P.S.  I bought mine for $9 on sale at Richs, normal price something
    like $12.

    The Audobon gift shop at Drumlin Farm on Route 117 in Lincoln, Mass
    has them for sale also.  Buy a light and support the Audobon
    Society....
    

I have one, I forget the brand, that I bought at Somerville.  It is a
self-contained flourescent that draws 18 watts but has the output, they say,
of a 75-watt bulb.  In my experience, it puts out as much usable light as
a 150-watt bulb.  The light is a bright, relatively warm (for flourescents)
white, and the large glass diffuser on the bulb seems to spread the light
out more than from an incandescent.

I paid about $25 for this one - I'd be astonished to see anyone selling them
for $3.  One thing is that they are much longer than a standard incandescent
and heavy.  They also can't be used where they might get wet.

But I am very happy with the amount of light it puts out for so little
electricity!

				Steve

    they also can't be used where the temp goes below 50 degrees...

    Re: .42
    
    I disagree - mine is in my front door light and it works fine in
    cold temperatures.  It just takes longer to start and to come up to
    full brightness.  I have used it at temperatures below zero without
    problems.
    
    				Steve

re: .42

	I disagree too. I have been using the small 7 watt models (the ones
	with the tiny tube) in my post lamp for more than 4 years. It is turned
	on every night from dusk till 11pm. It looks great. By having a frosted
	bulb cover you can't even see the flouresent tube.

	I even have a flouresent "jelly jar" lamp for the deck. (12 watt model)

Boston Edison was offering energy efficient lights at very good prices a while
ago.  I guess they figure it's cheaper to spend a little encouraging people
to conserve than it is to spend a lot increasing capacity.  Call your electric
utility and ask if they subsidize energy-efficient lights.

As it happens, we had a free energy audit done yesterday and were given a bulb
as part of it.  We were also givem a list of what's available at what price
from someplace in Worcester (I think).

The list is at home; I'll try to remember to post it tonight or tomorrow.

Pete

    RE: back a few (under 50 degrees)
    	This does hold true for normal fixtures, and I would have also
    believed it true for these small incandecent replacements but they must
    build similar to the "high-output" tubes so they can work in cold weather.
    I never would have even tried one of those replacements in an outside
    lamp.  
    
    bjm

OK, here's the scoop that I have.  There's a company in Worcester (Ecological
Innovations, 72 Cambridge Street, #210, Worcester, MA 01603 Tel. 508:753-5583)
that sells this stuff.  Their prices are under the "EI" column, and they sell a
lot more stuff, too.

The people who did our audit are the Energy Federation, Inc., 354 B Waverly
Street, Framingham, MA 01701 Tel. 800:752-7372 and if we buy through them then
the prices under the "EFI" column apply.

I have no idea precisely what these things are, what normal retail prices are,
and am not responsible for any mistakes I made while typing:


                                             EI             EFI
                                             =====          =====
        Magnetic Ballast Products:
LCFGE15 15w Tube Style Capsule               15.50          14.10
LCFP15  15w Globe Style Capsule              15.50          14.10
LCCP15  15w Circlite                         17.00          14.10

        (Not sure about ballast:)
LPCQ9   9w Quad Tube w/ center ballast       19.00          17.25
LPLQ13  13w Quad Tube w/ side ballast        20.50          18.25

        Electronic Ballast Products:
LCFP18  18w Capsule                          25.00          23.00
LCFP27  27w Quad Style                       27.50          25.25

re: .36

The store/agency in Fitchburg is Fundamental Action to Conerve Energy, better 
known as FACE.  In addition to bulbs, they carry a variety of items to improve 
energy efficiency, recycled paper products, and so on.  They have an offshoot
project going to support recycling in the North Central MA area.

> produce much more energy per watt 

If they can produce more energy per watt, they've solved the energy crisis
for all time :-)  I trust that "more light per watt" was your intent.

   Gary

    As usual, the place to buy is Spags. About a month ago I picked up
    one  of  each  of  two  types  there.  Each  fits  in  a  standard
    incandescent  fixture,  and  claims to provide as much light as an
    incandescent  of  four times the power consumption. They were both
    rated for 10,000 hours of use.

    So they  cost  20  times  as  much as an incandescent, and last 10
    times  as long, using 1/4 the electricity. You can justify that on
    economic  grounds,  even without adding in the savings in nuisance
    value of having bulbs last much longer.

    One was  a  quad tube where the tube (one piece of glass with four
    parallel  tubes)  is  replaceable. Ballast and tube cost about $10
    for  an  18  w version. The light is quite warm for a flourescent,
    and  with a lamp shade very good. It's supposed to be as bright as
    a  75 w incandescent, and I think it may be a little brighter than
    that.  It's  substantially heavier than an incandescent, so when I
    put  it  in an adjustable lamp which uses springs to counterweight
    it,  the  lamp  didn't hold position well. It's also larger, so it
    may  not  fit  in  some  areas.  They do provide some extenders to
    standard harps, and we're using one under the lamp shade.

    The other looked like an incandescent on steroids, but didn't work
    when  we got it home. I'll return it for a replacement next time I
    go.  It was  a similar price.

    The catalog I mentioned in .35 has still not arrived.

--David

I have been looking around and have been unable to find long posts.  I am
trying to put up some lighting outside my house.  I have a motion sensor
light that I want to put up.  I have found 10 foot 4x4s at Builder's Square.
This would give me 2 feet in the ground and 8 foot above.  I figure I can mount
the post beside an outdoor outlet I have currently.  Then I can run outdoor
wiring (or conduit) down and using a regular plug I can plug the light into the
outlet.

The problem is I don't think that having the light only 8 feet high will be very
useful.  What do you all think?  I would have liked to found a post more like 
14 feet.  This would allow me to put 3 feet in the ground and have 11 feet
above.

Does anyone know of sources of inexpensive posts.  I have a need for some others
elsewhere, so if I can find a source, I will be able to do some things I have
on my project list for next summer.  I really need one post for this winter.

So, what does everyone think?  Is 8 feet high good enough for giving a reasonable
amount light from the sensor light?

Ed..

    Lumber yards, not home owner stores, carry em in 8, 10, 12, 14, and
    even 16 (a tad rare).
    

    re: big posts
    
    When building our swingset, Somerville delivered a 16' 4x6 post
    to our yard.  I agree with the previous reply that most lumber
    yards carry up to 16' in most post sizes - and I believe that
    Somerville does for 4x4's as well as the 4x6 (which I know firsthand).
    
    andy
    

    Instead of a lumber yard, try a lumber mill.  There's one down the
    street from me (Garner Brothers in Hopkinton,MA) that will cut you
    almost anything you want.  Their prices are alot lower than Somerville.
    A 6x6 actually measures 6 inches on a side.  The only drawbacks are
    that the edges are a bit rough (but that's OK for a lamp post) and
    it's not pressured treated.
    
    -al

re .0

I'd go a little deeper than you indicated - at least 3 feet, perhaps 4.
A tall pole tends to work the hole it's in unless it's done in cement or
something.

If you can't find or get the longer pieces, try joining two together with
a lap joint. A little sanding, a little paint ....

        How about the local power company?  They might give you
    all or part of an old or broken pole.  If you live on "their
    way home" from the job you might persuade them to drop it
    off.  Who knows, for couple of six packs or so they might
    even drill a hole a set if for you.  That is expecting a lot,
    but some of the crews are pretty generous.  Keep your eyes
    open for pole work.


    Peter Duke

...another idea that might even save some money and look better.

Use 6-8' PT 4x4 in the ground and "build" the rest of the pole out of 1x4
nailed as a box. Run the wire up the center. Use one of those tin fencepost
hats as a roof.

Only drawbacks I see are the need to cut the PT 4x4 to attach the built
up box and the need to paint.

    
    
    
    	HQ was advertising 6, 8, 10, 12, 14 and 16 ft PT 4X4 posts
    	a couple of months ago....
    
    
    					Mike
    					----

        Another question.  Is this a security flood light?  I
    looked through a couple of lighting catalogs and found a
    couple of generals rules for mounting height.  It appears
    that the effective hozizontal 'reach' of a flood light is
    about twice the mounting height.


    Peter Duke

Thanks for the ideas.  I really like the boxed post idea.  With the cap, it could
look pretty good.  If I used an 8 foot post with 3 foot down, that would leave
5 foot above ground.  Now, if I were to box for a total height of 14 feet, that
would mean an upsupported box of about 9 feet.  How sturdy would that be?  I
have not actually paid attention to how sturdy long, narrow boxes tend to be.

If the light reaches twice the height, would that mean I would want to put the
light as high as reasonable?  If I put it 13 feet high, it would reach 26 feet
out?  This is a light to light up the back yard, around the barn.  It is on the 
other side of the yard from the barn, but there is no light over there.

Ed..

    
    
    
    	Why not just attach it to the barn ?

Because there is no power to the barn.  I would love to have power there, but
I haven't figured out what size wire (and what kind) to run.  There is a second
breaker panel in the patio (a sub-panel).  From here, there is an outside outlet
about 50 feet down the yard.  I figured for now I could take advantage of that.

I will put a note in the appropriate note, though, asking this question.  Maybe
it would be easier to just run power out to the barn and wire it up.  I would
only need the light outside, a light inside, and a switch (maybe two lights
inside).  I wouldn't expect this would need a terribly large wire.

Ed..

>               <<< Note 4335.11 by KAHALA::FULTZ "ED FULTZ" >>>

>       Because there is no power to the barn.  I would love to
>   have power there, but I haven't figured out what size wire
>   (and what kind) to run.  There is a second breaker panel in
>   the patio (a sub-panel).  From here, there is an outside
>   outlet about 50 feet down the yard.  I figured for now I
>   could take advantage of that.

        Isn't there a note abour your barn wiring a few hundred
    back?  I seem to recall it.  I think we finally settled on a
    50 Amp. 240 Volt line for the barn because of the possibility
    of water heaters for animals or something like that.

No, the note that I entered before was for a real barn.  What we have is a shed
that is being used to store feed, and hay, and has 1 stall in it.  I have no 
power in this now, and was thinking of ways to do this easily.  I did not
intend to branch this conversation down that path.  I guess I was thinking
out loud.  Our dream barn is a bit off, unfortunately.

Ed..

        Sorry, the question abouat the barn did sound a bit
    sarcastic.  No offense intended.

        How about going overhead to the shed?  Sounds like the
    shed may be temporary.  Not as attractive, but it sure beats
    digging.  If you need a pole along the way, put your light on
    it.

        ELF says you are at DDD.  You might check Merrimack
    Metals behind Post Road Plazza for wire.  It will be a lot
    less than new.


    Peter Duke

  Last year I put in some lighting for the driveway basketball court.  Rather
  than using a 4x4 for the whole post, we put in a 4-foot section (2 feet
  buried, and mounted an electrical box on it.  The electrician cobbled up
  a light pole out of a 10-foot length of standard electrical conduit, and
  screwed on a 300W halogen lamp (which came with a threaded mount).
  We then drilled a 1-inch vertical hole in the top of the 4x4 and inserted
  the conduit into it.

  The cord from the light fixture just dangles down to the electrical box
  and to switch it we just plug/unplug.  But I think it still looks better
  than having a 12-foot 4x4 post.  It is easy to remove and having power
  out in the garden has come in handy a couple of times, too.

  JP

    I need a spot light installed.  I have the spot light, but
    need someone to install it.  
    
    Anyone interested out there??
    
    Thanks,
    Jane

    No, but after watching the Hometime Video on Lighting (which I got from
    my library) I'd suggest that you do it.
    
    P.S. Motion detectors are also a great device to use with outdoor
    spots. They provide a deterrent that is much less expensive than a full
    alarm system.

Re:  .1

You've got to be kidding.

I installed a motion detector spotlight for my wife for
Valentine's Day (imaginative gift :-) ).  What a pain!
(Your milage may differ.)

The hardest part is the electrical connections.  I had to
drill three holes, run the wire through what seemed to be
the entire house, install the light in the soffit vents
15 feet above the ground (at night just for fun :-) )
and make the electrical connection into a junction box
that has 8 other wires already going into it (after first
running it through a switch).  I figure it took me about
8 hours.  Next time I could probably do it in 5.

Of course, if you're simply talking about *replacing* a
floodlight, then it may not take long.  It turns out that
our floodlight stopped working about 3 months after we put
it in and I finally tracked it down to being the floodlight.
It took about 1-1/2 hours just to replace it and check
it (not including the time to track down the problem and
return it to the store for a replacement which was probably
another 3 hours).

Collis

>and make the electrical connection into a junction box
>that has 8 other wires already going into it (after first
>running it through a switch).  I figure it took me about
>8 hours.  Next time I could probably do it in 5.

	    It sounds feasible that you've exceeded the maximum capacity
	of your junction box.  If memory serves, a standard octagon box
	can hold a maximum of 7 #14 conductors.  A square box can contain
	up to 10.  Ground wires (I believe) are now being counted where 
	as you used to count them all as only one ground wire.
	    Your junction box likely has #12 guage wires in it.  The
	larger the wire guage, the less wires allowed in a given size
	electrical box.
	
					Tim

I'd be interested in knowing if indeed it does exceed
what is proper.  I did buy an extender so that the junction
box is twice as deep (so the wires are not getting in
the way of each other too much).

If the current setup is really improper, I could add a
second junction box and put connect some of the wires
through it.

(Almost all if not all of the wires are 12 gauge.)

Collis

I just noticed on the back of the "Family Handyman Magazine" that Siemens is
making a new Solar security light. The bottem of the advertisment indicated
that you can get them at HomeDepot, Sears, Leachmere etc... So far I have not
found one. 

The advertisement indicated that these lights will last up to two weeks without
Sun because of a High Efficiency solar cell and storage battery. 

This seem ideal to me because I would not have to deal with any wiring.  

Has anybody try one of these yet?

dave
           

I just noticed on the back of the "Family Handyman Magazine" that Siemens is
making a new Solar security light. The bottem of the advertisment indicated
that you can get them at HomeDepot, Sears, Leachmere etc... So far I have not
found one. 

	   You may be talking about a model that uses a motion detector.
	The batteries hold their charges so long because the lights only
	come on when something triggers the detector... after dark.  I've
	seen these on sale for >$60.00.
	   I opted for a good quality motion detector/lights that burn
	regular electricity.  It cost less than $20.00 and the lights are
	only on a couple of minutes a day.
	
					Tim

I have an outdoor fixture, wall lantern type. This is to be mounted flush 
against the wall. However, this fixture was given to me with no mounting
hardware of any type. I can rig something up, but wondered if I need some
sort of gasket between the lantern and the piece of wood it will be mounted 
on.

Thanks,

Joseph
        <<< Note 1047.20 by N1BRM::GETTYS "Bob Gettys N1BRM 235-8285" >>>
                              -< light is a box >-

	My understanding is that a flourescent fixture is considered to be a box
in and of itself. Thus there is no need for a separate box to feed it from. You 
use the same cable clamp that you would put into a box that doesn't have a built
in one and install it into a knock out somewhere on the fixture. I have installed
fixtures in that manner and it works out just fine.

	/s/	Bob

Are you mounting on the side of the house? If so, you'll need a junction box 
behind it. Make your splice in the junction box. Mount the fixture to the box.

As for the bracket/mounting hardware. Go to an electrical supply or lighting 
showroom with your fixture and they can fix you up with the right mounting
hardware. Should cost less than $10 for everything you need including the 
junction box. This stuff is pretty standardized between manufacturers.

Typically the junction box gets recessed into the siding of the house and the 
fixture gets connected to the recessed box via 8-32 machine screws and a mounting
bracket. Usually no gasket is required. But if you want to install a gasket it 
won't hurt anything.

If there is an older existing fixture already there don't be surprised to find
it doesn't have a junction box behind it. In this case you really should install
one before putting up the new fixture.

(Remember to ground the box and the fixture if the existing wiring allows.)

Later

Paul 

	Also, if you are mounting on clapboard siding, there exist wood
	mounting plates that will make the light mount vertically - they
	compensate for the "slant" of the clapboards. It's a little touch
	that makes the light look so much better.

	Roy

Thanks for the advice. The carpenter inset a piece of wood to provide for
a flush mounting.

After re-examining the fixture, I may opt to just buy another one that 
matches what is elsewhere on the house, and use this one inside somewhere.
(It's pretty nice, and a shame to waste it as a back door light).

Joseph

    I have a question for this forum...Last night I discovered that there's
    an obvious wiring problem in my new house.  A light that hangs above a
    stair well has switches at the top and bottom of the stairs.  The
    switch at the top of the stairs will only turn the light on and off if
    the switch at the bottom of the stairs is in the  'on' (up) position.
    
    I assume this is not 'unsafe', but can it be fixed without pulling
    wires in the walls and if so, how?
    
    tim
    

    
    	Re: .23
    
    	Roy...
    
    		Any idea where I can get one/some of these mounting plates
    	in the Northern Mass./Southern N.H. area?  I need to replace two
    	that are badly split, plus install another light.
    
    	Thanks..... Ed
    

    RE: .25 stairway light
    
    I would assume that some novice "electrican" replaced your lower switch
    with the wrong kind.  It should be a three way.   I would also assume
    that it was wired correctly originally, but stranger things have
    happened.
    
    To debug this, I would power off the circuit at the breaker box and
    check if the lower switch was 2 or 3 terminals, and if there is a
    disconnected or doubled wire in the box.  Tell us what you find.
    
    Someone else might draw you a wiring diagram of how this _should_be
    wired.
    
    	Dave.

    Re .26 - Try either M&M or Johnson's, both in Nashua.

    I'm having some landscaping done to my property.  A new front walk 
    is being built as well.  My question concerns lighting the 
    walkway.  We had a power line (low voltage) running along 
    (underground) the old walkway providing electricity to the old 
    walkway lights.  These lights are now gone, but the power line 
    remains.  My question is when I buy new lamps should I get the 
    battery operated ones or stick to the a/c powered ones?

    I have no idea how expensive either is, nor do I know any of the 
    pros/cons of using either except the obvious (no power line in one 
    case).


    Thanks.
    -Phil

See note 2107.

>   <<< Note 5068.1 by NOTIME::SACKS "Gerald Sacks ZKO2-3/N30 DTN:381-2085" >>>
>
>See note 2107.

Thanks for the pointer.  That note discusses solar powered lamps.  
Aren't battery powerd ones available as well?  I haven't found a note 
discussing that topic yet.

/Phil

    Before the ground freezes solid for the winter, I'd like to install an
    outside light on a wooden lamp post.  I've scanned a number of home
    improvement books for pointers, but I've come up empty.  I'm
    specifically interested in advice about ...

	*  underground wiring

	*  sources for wooden (cedar?) lamp posts in the Nashua area

	*  minimizing lamp post rot

    -- Ward

	   DIR 1111.* = ELECTRICAL WIRING directory is located in note 
	1111.36.  That shows this topic was covered in note 1338.

    I am trying to figure solve an electrical problem and I am hoping that
    you folks can offer suggestions.
    
    All the electric outlets in my family room are on one circuit.  I know
    because I wired the room myself 7 years ago.  Everything was done
    according to code and everything has worked fine until this week.  
    A few days ago I discovered that some of the electric outlets are not
    working.  I checked them all and discovered that the outlets in one
    half of the room still work fine, and then the rest do not.  
    
    I used a test list to check the outlets. It's one of those gizmos with
    2 metal probes wired to a small test light.  You stick the probes into
    each slot of the outlet and see if it has power.  The test light 
    confirmed what I already knew about which outlets work and which
    don't.  I also checked the ground on each outlet with the test light.
    The light should glow when you stick a probe into the ground hole and
    the small slot of each outlet.  This tested correctly with all the
    functional outlets, but with the dead outlets it did something
    different.  That is, it glowed when I tested it as follows:
    
    A) one probe in the small slot and one probe in the ground hole
    
    	*and*
    
    B) one probe in the *large* slot and one probe in the ground hole
    
    
    Now, I know that it is not supposed to glow in this second instance. 
    It seems like the white wire has somehow gotten to be "hot."  I tried
    replacing a few outlets to see if an outlet has developed some kind of
    short, but it didn't make a difference.
    
    The weird thing is that everything worked fine for years, and no
    wiring changes were introduced  into the system to cause this problem.
    
    So I am trying to figure out what happened and how to correct it.
    
    Any ideas?
    
    	Thanks,
    	Willy

    It sounds like you have a loose connection in one of the outlet
    boxes. When you wired these outlets did you use the screw
    terminals on the sides or the push-in connections? The push-ins
    are notorious for causing problems several years down the road.

    Checking the connections and fixing ALL outlets in the room may
    solve your problems. Don't forget, the problem connection may also
    be in one of the "good" outlet boxes. 

    Charly

    Remove ALL loads from ALL outlets and try your test light again.  I'll
    bet the test light doesn't glow in the "B" test then.  What you're
    seeing is current flow through one of the loads.  To the test light (or
    a meter), it is essentially a "short".
    
    The problem?  There has got to be a break either at a connection to one
    of the sockets (most likely) or a break in a wire (unlikely).  I'd
    start be looking at the first dead socket and going back towards the
    source.
    
    A good question to answer yourself is, does the source come in at one
    end of the string or in the middle somewhere.  It's trial and error
    troubleshooting from here on.
    
    \Lou
    

    OK, I'll unplug everything from the circuit and test the outlets again.
    Then I'll rewire each outlet to make sure all the connections are
    solid.  I did *not* use the push-in connections.  Everything is screwed 
    down.
    
    I'm still open to other ideas if you have them.
    
    	Thanks,
    	Willy

    Is there a GFCI outlet in the run that may need to be reset?
    
    Reason I ask is my family room has that situation every now and then
    as I wired an outside GFCI outlet in the run, which results in half
    the rooms outlets not working when it is tripped.
    
    Mark

    
    Didnt happend to nail someting close to the wires did you?
    
    You cold pull everyone out of the box and reconnect and check
    one at a time.  The would tell you between what outlets the 
    problems is....
    
    
    JD

    I did check the GFI outlet (which is located in the garage) even though
    I didn't think it was on the same circuit. It was fine.  This didn't
    help.
    
    And I didn't nail anything in any wall of the family room at any time
    in the last few weeks.  
    
    I was going to go through the room and rewire each outlet one at a time
    over the weekend, but I never got the time. I'll do it sometime this
    week.
    
    	Thanks again,
    	Willy

I have a simple electrical question:

	I have an outdoor motion-activated spotlight on one side of 
the house. I have another spotlight which I would like to mount on the 
rear of the house, but want it to be activated by the same motion 
detector as the light on the side.

	Would it be within Mass. code to simply run romex through a piece of 
conduit attached to the house right under the overhang from one box to 
another?

	Thanks,
	John

		   ____________________________________
		  /				      / \
		 /				     /   \
		/				    /     \
		-------------------------------------------    
	  	|	light->	XX==================|=XX <---light+motion
		|			   |	    |      |		
		|			conduit	    |      |		
		|				    |      |		
		|				    |      |		
		|				    |      |		
		|				    |      |		
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Whether it is according to code or not is another matter that I can't answer,
BUT the motion sensing "switches", like timers and dimmers have low switching
current ratings ... typically about 300W ... and they really do seem to
have a much higher failure rate when operated near that capacity.  (I've had
2 dimmers and a remote switch fail when operated at abou 275W when they
were rated at 300 ... other dimmers of the same type operated at about
150W have not failed.)

Since outdoor lights tend to be higher power ... eg 150W ... this could
be a problem ... e.g. 2*150W

Just a "beware"

Stuart

>	Would it be within Mass. code to simply run romex through a piece of 
>conduit attached to the house right under the overhang from one box to 
>another?

	    Is there a reason why you couldn't run the wires inside the
	attic?  Conduit on a house will detract from it's appearance.  Or
	better yet, why not install a second motion detector; they're cheap
	enough.

					Tim

The makers of my modular home made it close to impossible to get into 
the attic. The bedroom closet (wife's territory) must be completely 
emptied, including removing shelf from wall.  Then I would need a 
sizeable ladder that would still somehow fit into the closet. Obscene amounts 
of insulation make it impossible to get around once in the attic - you can't 
tell where the joists are.

Yes, motion lights are cheap enough, I suppose I could do that - I was trying 
to make use of the equipment I had which included a motion light on which 
heat from the 300W halogen bulb had toasted the motion sensor.

Although the conduit would detract from the appearance, what are the 
other options?  If I were to install another box coming from the 
basement or existing outside outlet, I would still need conduit running up 
the side of the house, right?

Thanks for the responses so far,
John

re: .-1

> The makers of my modular home made it close to impossible to get into 
> the attic.
> [etc.]

I hate to tell you this, but this is one of those instances where you really
should go to the trouble. That's what the access is there for.

>The makers of my modular home made it close to impossible to get into 
>the attic. The bedroom closet (wife's territory) must be completely 

	    Maybe it's time to call in an electrician.  It would cost more
	but it the installation would be quick and safe.  And you wouldn't
	have to go in the attic.  The electrician might have to (maybe not)
	but that's what he gets paid for.

					Tim

    
    
    
    
    
      
    I', thinking about installing lamp posts along my dirveway (250 ft long)
    
    I have seen at Home Depot lamp post poles that have motion detector
    eyes?? for lights that come on automatically ... How do these work ?  
    
    What are the pros and cons of having motion detector eyes ?
    
    Are they reliable ?
    
    Does anybody feel they are worth the extra $'s or are they a waste of
    money ?
    
    
    Thanks in advance

    
    Hi!
      
    I'm thinking about installing lamp posts along my driveway (250 ft long)
    
    I have seen at Home Depot lamp post poles that have motion detector
    eyes?? for lights that come on automatically ... How do these work ?  
    
    What are the pros and cons of having motion detector eyes ?
    
    Are they reliable ?
    
    Does anybody feel they are worth the extra $'s or are they a waste of
    money ?
    
    
    Thanks in advance

    	One of the problems with motion detectors is that they can pick up
    extraneous events. For example, if there are bushes/trees nearby and in
    view of the sensor eye, the light will go on and off on a windy day.
    
    	If you can point them so that this won't occur, they're great. I
    have one on the side of the house and it's nice to be able to go out
    and not worry about whether you left a light on should you return after
    dark.
    
    	Ray

Most of the so-called motion detectors are really passive-infrared detectors
and tend not to respond to wind-blown bushes, not to say that that doesn't
happen on occasion.  The detectors themselves are fairly reliable - I love
having one on my driveway lights.  You do have to take some time to set them
up so that they have the sensitivity you want.  Also keep in mind that they
detect motion across their field of view, so they don't really notice something
coming straight at them.

					Steve

    Mine works fine and the wind does not bother it.  Another thing
    you can do depending upon the brand and settup is a manual overide
    to keep them on all the time.  and then back to motion only. This is
    done simply by shutting the power off at the source and then back on.
    
    I wired mine from the breaker panel in my barn to an outside switch on
    the barn for ease and also placed an outside outlet for other things,
    and then to the lights.
    

    	Guess I either have an old one or one out of adjustment. I have a
    light mounted fairly high up on the corner of my house. On windy nights
    it's forever going on and off. Probably a lot less likely to be a
    problem on a lamp post. Time to pull out the ladder.
    
    	Ray

    
    Can some of you folks explain how you placed the poles in the ground ?
    
    Here is what I was thinking of doing ... pole is metal and hollow
    center.
    
    1. Dig a 18 inch hole.
    2. Fill will rocks, press rocks firmly against pole.
    3. Then, fill with cement
    4. Then fill with topsoil
    
    My concern is it heeving in the winter thus tilting.
    
    Will this work ?  Has anybody done this successfully!
    
    
    

Please clarify what you mean. By my reading, you're "filling" the hole
three times - first with stone, then with concrete, and finally with
topsoil. (?!?!?!)

    
    
    re .-1
    
    I hope this helps ....
    
    
    Here is what we want to do ....
    
                 Pole
                   ^
                   |
                   |
                   |
    ______         |         ______________________ Ground
     Rest \  Dirt  | Dirt   /       ^
     Dirt  \ Dirt  | Dirt  /        |
            \ Dirt | Dirt /         |
             \Dirt |Dirt /          |
              \****|****/          18 inches deep
      Cement-> \***|***/            |
                \OO|OO/             |
      Rocks ---> \O |O               |
                  \|/            ___|___

    to -1
    Your diagram implies the pole will be in contact with the dirt. Bad
    idea.
    Go down about 30 inches, lay a base of rock, then do about 24 inches of
    concrete - concrete to about one inch above ground level. Smooth the
    concrete in such a way that water runs AWAY from the pole.
    
    Depending on your installation, make sure you have done any required
    wiring first. Often the wiring enters the bottom of the post.

    RE: -.2
    
    Another thing to consider is how you dig your hole. Your diagram shows
    it in the shape of a "V". You'll be better off undercutting the hole
    somewhat (sort of "A" shaped) before pouring your concrete. 
    
    Another trick to consider would be to anchor the pole into a cinder
    block before pouring your concrete. I just pulled such a pole out this
    past weekend, and the block really helped keep that sucker anchored...
    
    Good luck...

	    My motion detector sometimes turns on on very windy nights.  I'm
	guessing that there are warm currents of air that fool the sensor.
	Either way, it hasn't really been a problem.
	    As for mounting the poles, I would use Sona tubes.  They're large
	card board tubes designed for pouring concrete footings.  They make
	for a nice neat pier and save on how much concrete you have to mix.

					Tim

    
    Re .35 - .39:
    
    10-12 years ago, I installed two light posts (hollow metal) along my
    driveway. I just dug a vertical hole about 18" deep, threaded the wire,
    set the post vertical, backfilled with sand and tamped with a 4x4.
    
    Once in a great while the post at the top of the driveway gets a little
    wobbly because the kids knock against it; mayby an inch of horizontal
    play at tht top of the pole. I've retamped two or three times in the
    ensuing years to fix this. Otherwise, they're still there, still
    vertical. When they rust out, I figure on a 2-hour job to replace both,
    and the posts are relatively inexpensive. How much time will it take to
    excavate all that concrete?
    

    
        I had a problem (nearly) identical to .0. Three wall outlets in
    three different baths went dead (wife was ironing in bath/laundry room
    when it happened). I figure the breaker had popped (GFI at Panel) as I
    had seen that same breaker pop a couple times within the last six months
    or so (clue?). Checked breaker, was not tripped. Checked for voltage out
    of CB, fine. Pulled all three outlets and checked connections. Quick
    (push-in) connections were used on all three (these ought to be outlawed
    if they  haven't been already!!!) I moved all wires to screw terminals, but
    still no go. Drats.
    
        My basement (where bath/laundry is) has a sheetrock ceiling making
    tracing the wire for this circuit (from CB Panel) impossible. I was
    *guessing* that the basement bath was the first outlet in the chain.
    However the problem would have to be a bad wire if there is voltage at CB
    Box end of the wire and none (used voltmeter) in the bath. My thoughts,
    copper wires just don't go bad (open) in a 20 year old house, at least I
    would hope not. I  haven't been hanging any pictures with railroad spikes
    lately either.  :^)
    
    
        I was really figuring to find a loose connection.I had checked all
    the other outlets/lights INSIDE the house and they all worked fine (with
    the problem circuit CB turned off). Wait a minute, I forgot about the 
    OUTSIDE outlet on the back of the house (I almost never use it)! The
    builders crew probably used Quick (Yuck) connections outside too.
    Removed faceplate/outlet to find quick-connects on a corroded outlet AND 1
    wire nearly pulled out the back. Replaced (weatherproof) box/outlet,
    probelm solved.
    
        I can only repeat the earlier replies to CHANGE ALL YOUR OUTLETS TO
    SCREW TERMINALS IF YOU HAVE THE PUSH-IN (QUICK CONNECTIONS). *DON'T* 
    FORGET ABOUT ANY OUTSIDE OUTLETS TOO!!! 
    
     /Charlie

  In line with the new policy re new topics, I am posting this as a reply.
Please copy me on your reply.
  Is it possible to buy long-life floodlight bulbs, the ones that screw into
an outdoor floodlight fixture? I have some outdoor floodlights that are on all
night and are hard to get at. The standard bulbs last only a month on average.
I need a bulb that is good for at least 2000 hours.
  If such a thing exists, what kind of store sells them? (I am in the greater
Maynard area.)

    There are halogen PAR floodlamps available that last longer than
    regular PAR lamps - and use less electricity to boot.  A 90W 
    halogen is equivalent to a regular 150.
    
    I got one at Maynard Supply on route 62.
    

    	Perhaps I bought long life bulbs without realizing it, but I have
    some on my motion-sensor controlled flood light that have lasted over a
    year. They are 150W each.
    
    	Are yours on continuously at night ? Sounds like there may be
    another problem (i.e. surges on the lighting circuit line ?).
    
    	Ray

>    	Are yours on continuously at night ?
  Yes

>  Sounds like there may be another problem (i.e. surges on the lighting 
> circuit line ?).
    
  This is possible, but the indoor lights on the same circuit don't seem to be
burning out unusually fast.
  I will look into the "halogen PAR" bulbs.

    
    I have outdoor motion detection lighting. When the ccontractor
    installed the fixtures he must have trashed the manuels. 
    I'd like to either adjust the "ON" time or disable it altogether. 
    Can anyone explaine how this is done?
    
    thanks in advance
    steve

    	It probably varies by manufacturer, but my sensor light has two
    adjustment knobs (dials) on it. One is for sensitivity, the other is 
    for the amount of time the light stays on for.
    	
    	On my light, these adjustment knobs are clearly visable from the 
    underside of the unit. Yours may be different. Mine also has an annoying 
    feature in that if the power flickers, the light will stay on until you 
    turn it off. It also goes on by itself on windy, rainy, or snowy days. 
    The point being that if it's anything like mine, you WILL want to connect 
    an on/off switch to it if it doesn't already have one.
    
    	Ray

>    The point being that if it's anything like mine, you WILL want to connect 
>    an on/off switch to it if it doesn't already have one.

Yah, a neighbor had one of those on her garage, at the last house we were in.
Apparently nobody ever set it correctly.
On..........off...........on.........off..........on...........off, all
night, every night.