Conference 7.286::home_work

    Anyone have any ideas for sturdy, long lasting, outdoor swing/gym 
    sets for kids?  I found a few pictures of some in a do-it-yourself
    book, but didn't see anything that really caught my eye.
    
    Something with a little detail in regard to dimensions, etc., would 
    be helpful.                                                  
    
    					Steve

    Stanley had a set of plans for a swing set and gym about 8 years
    ago.  I build one for my kids and it has been better than the the
    wooden ones you can buy (and a lot cheaper).  I think I still have
    the plans and could Xerox them.  The Stanley design has 3 stations
    on the swing itself (i have 2 swings and a bar).  It is about 12
    feet high which gives a nicer swing arc than something 6 or 7 feet.
    didn't build the gym part but chose instead to add a platform house
    of my own design.
    
    Marty
    

    Try checking out your Library. Black and Decker has a real nice
    book on different projects. One of them is a backyard play config-
    uration like those you find at playgrounds,made from 4X4s with
    a slide,ladder,monkey bars and different levels to climb on,if your
    kids are old enough for that.
    
    Steve McWilliams
    

    If it isn't too much trouble could .1 make a xerox of their plans
    and send them to Al Fisher in the Columbus,OH office. My wife has
    been after me to build something for our kids (ages 2 & 6) and I've
    just started looking. If it would be better to send them to my home
    call me in the office at 614-860-8266 for my adress.
    
    thanks,
    
    Al
    :^)
    

    Re .3 and .4   Will make the copies this week and call/send them
    off.  Does the total copy center do this stuff? <:)
    

    Thanks for the plans from Stanley, Marty.  Since I've been looking
    for as many ideas as possible I noticed an ad in today's paper.
    
    The Great Northern Swing Co. has a catalog which I've sent for.
    They can be reached at 617-372-8554.  They're located in Haverhill.  
    I don't have any idea if these sets come in kits or what but I 
    figured it was worth looking into.
    
    					Steve

    You might want to check Sal's on rt.3A in Billerica.  He's got a
    good parts inventory as well as complete sets, at discounted prices.

There's a place in Holliston, Mass. that makes wooden swing sets, and where
we've bought some swings, rings, and a bar for a set that I made out of 2.5
inch EMT that DEC was throwing out.  We liked the looks of their stuff.  I
can't remember their name.  They definitely (and gladly) will see you the
various pieces of hardware.  We were originally seeking the place because of
an infant swing that they sell which is flexible and appears fairly secure.

There's also a place tucked away in the Shopper's World parking lot that
sells wooden swing sets.

You might (?) also want to consider some of the "pipe" swing sets that I've
seen.  There's a place on the south side of route 9 in Framingham, Mass. near
a Gulf (?) gas station that was selling the stuff.  We've been tempted, but
it's also expensive.  They also make lawn furniture.

						Good luck!
						  Dan S.

p.s.  Just dug the following out of the Framingham-area yellow pages
	under "Playground Equipment".  Also try "Furniture - Outdoor".

	Child Life Play Specialties Inc.
		55 Whitney, Holliston
		429-4639
	The Wooden Swing Co., Inc.
		45 New York Ave, Framingham
		620-1700
	more...

    If you build the playset yourself, what kind if wood should be used?
    
    Is it safe to build a kid's playset out of pressure treated lumber?
    

    There has been some controversy in the past about the saftey of
    PT wood used in children's playthings. I'm not sure if it has been
    resolved but I would (and did) avoid using it for my kids.
    
    Charly
    

    I would not use PT wood for the above stated reasons.  You need
    a wood which is weather resistant in its natural state.  Of the
    commonly available woods, the choices are probably redwood, Douglas
    Fir, or red cedar  (Cypress would be the best but it's become extinct
    for framing lumber).
    
    Redwood is expensive (mainly because of demand for outdoor furniture
    - I think it's overrated) but is very soft and relatively weak.
    
    Douglas Fir is actually more weather-resistant than redwood
    (little-known fact), and is very strong and cheaper, but can get
    splintery which is not great for a kids' plaything.
    
    Cedar would seem to be a good compromise, yet I rarely see it used
    for wooden swings.  Anyone know why?

I built mine out of PT wood.  What I did was go to the Wooden Swing in 
Framington and copy their plans.  All their swings are pressure treated.
The bottom line is essentially build it out of 2X4's and have it last a few
(maybe 5?) years or build it out of PT and have it last "forever".

btw - what IS the controversy over PT wood?  are they afraid the kids are going
      to eat the stuff?  on the other hand if they're just worried about contact
      people better stop using it to build decks, etc...

-mark

    If someone eats PT wood they're going to have more mechanical problems
    from eating wood than chemical problems.  How do you eat wood anyway?
    
    I'd use PT wood.  Just one opinion.  I wouldn't use redwood or cedar
    as they're too soft.  Doug fir is good but can you get it the sizes
    you need?
    
  

    I built a swing set 2 years ago out of presure treated 4x4's. I
    bought all the chains, swing seats and hardware at Child World.
    I sunk the 4x4's into the ground 4 feet and found that when my son
    used it he was able to pull the legs up and down. I had to concrete
    the legs into the ground.
    
    If your child is old enough to swing I don't think he/she will be
    sucking on the wood so I would say use pressure treated all the
    way.
    
    	-Steve-
    

    Because all of you have these great swing sets in your yard, my
    wife now wants to buy one for our yard, so that our 4 year old
    will stop living in our neighbor's yard.  I can not understand
    how these kids can play with the swing sets for hours a day.
    
    Anyway, my wife got some estimates from our neighbors, and it
    seems they all paid around 600 bucks for these swings.  I thought
    she was joking, but note .0 seems to confirm this fact.
    
    Now I have never really tried building anything of this type,
    but it seems like it would be simple.
    
    Can someone who has actually built the PT 4x4 type, and bought
    the accessories, tell me:
    		What is the approx. cost of P.T. wooded needed
    		The cost of swing, ropes, etc.
      		Was it as easy as it looks
    		If you had to do it over, would you still build it,
    		  or buy it.
    Thanx
    Paul 

    There seems to be too many of these high-tech swings around.
    When my wife wanted one for my son I just couldn't justify it in
    my mind. I ended up putting a full dimension rough-cut 2 x 12
    (from Parlees in Littleton) between two large pine trees. A large
    rope with a knot on the end and another large rope with an old
    motorcycle tire (much better than car tires) are all I used.
    It satisfied my son and kept me from having to spend hours trying
    to duplicate one of the ready made units.
    
    Talk to the future operators of the swing set to decide what is really
    important to them. You might be surprised at what they really want.
    
    Nick

It took me a full weekend (two days) to build ours out of PT Southern Yellow
Pine.  The hardest part was sanding! That stuff is harder than oak so you better
have a good belt sander and some good paper.

The cost was around $75 and only because I was impatient and didn't want to 
wait another week to go to a cheaper lumber yard.  Mine was built out of ALL
2X4's, 2 12 footers for the top and 4 8 footers for the sides (2 on each)
and 2 more for the base.

One thing I accidentally found out is that PT is not a very strong wood and is 
NOT rated the same way framing lumber is.  I had an 8 footer resting on a saw
horse and sat on it to take a rest.  The sucker broke!  Closer investigation
showed severl had knots in very stressful places and I went back and CAREFULLY
handpicked new materials with minimal knots.

The only hard thing about the construction was making the ladders, having
never done it before.  Depending on how fancy you want to get (and I wanted to
play with a new drill press) you can make hidden joints as shown below:


				|       |
				| 2X4   |
---------------------+		|	|
		     +--+       +--+    |
      rung	        |	   |    |  
		     +--+       +--+    |
---------------------+		|	|
				|       |

When you inset the ring into the 2X4 it doesn't stick out the other end (big 
deal) nor is there a gap where you plug it in.

If I had it to do again, I'd probably just drill a large enough hole straigth
through.

As for the rungs, I used closet pole!  I couldn't find hardwood dowels large
enough and so far the swing is around 4 years old and in tip-top shape.

Finally, as for setting it in the ground, the beauty of these things is that
you don't have to!  The trick is that the base is 8 feet wide and has virtually
no side motion even with an adult swinging on it.  Furthermore, it's portable!


		         ||    ||
		         ||----||
		         ||    ||
		       //||----||\\
		      // ||    || \\
		     //  ||----||  \\
		    //   ||    ||   \\
		   //    ||    ||    \\
              ===============================		
		       8 feet long


enough...

-mark

    See also note 92.
    
    I wonder how dangerous P.T. is when it stands outside and the surface
    is washed by rain. (Dangerous to people who come in contact with
    the wood, not the danger of it leaching into drinking water)
    
    Marty
    

    .10>  I agree with you.  I saw a set up like yours, simply a 4x4
    12 feet long running between two trees.  It had a climbing rope,
    and two swings.   However,  I really do not have two trees strong
    enough to support this type of set up.  That is why I am going
    to have to build something like .11> mentioned.
       
    .11>  I just received some designs like your in the mail.  I was
          really suprised to see that they were made of 2x4 boards.
    
    Most of the ones I have seen were 4x4 but they were the "A" style,
    which do not have latters.         ^
                                      /-\
                                     /   \
                                    /\
                                   /--\
                                  /    \  
      However, they are sunk about 4 feet into the ground.  I like the part
    you mentioned about being able to move your set.  I would hate to
    cement the swing set into the ground, and the following summer have to 
    move it, for whatever reasons. 
   
    .12> for people who are worried about the PT being dangerous for
    the kids, would putting a few coats of polyethylene over the wood
    keep the PT chemicals away from the kids hands, etc?  Or would this
    type of wood cover also be dangerous for kids to handle.
    
    Thanx again,
    Paul

    re: Pressure treated wood
    
    PT wood should be a no-no for anything that kids are playing with.
    I recall hearing about a child who got a slight splinter in their
    hand from PT wood and didn't tell thier folks about it. The next
    day the hand was all swollen and sore and took a long time to heal
    once the doctor had removed the splinter. Seems that some people
    react to the chemicals more than others so you don't know what each
    child would do as a reaction. Something they are playing on, and
    other peoples children are playing on should be of "normal" materials,
    that is, maybe southern yellow pine and galvanized hardware, not
    something that might make a child sick. The lawyers probably would
    have a field day with you over a splinter..... 8^(
    
    Vic

    
    
    If you're worried about PT wood then I suggest that you sand it
    down first and then polyurithane it(several coats, light sanding
    between coats). This will seal the wood, thus rendering it harmless.
    

I seem to recall that the  Child Life Play Specialties  place that I mentioned
in .2 uses fir with about 10 coatings of various paints, etc. applied over it,
sanding in between each coat, etc.

I also neglected to mention in .2 that I bought some special hooks from them
for attaching the swings to the chains (or the chains to the rings).  They are
designed in such a way that it would appear almost impossible to accidentally
unhook them, even though they're open and designed to be unhooked.

							--Dan S.

    I built the Stanley swing set in '77 or '78.  I used fir and covered
    with two coats of Cuprinol semi-transparent stain.  I have recoated
    the swing set 2 or 3 times since.  No sign of decay.  Looks as good
    as the day I finished.  I also used regular plated hardware.  I
    had trouble finding the correct galvanized stuff then.  I Cuprinoled
    the hardware as well and only of few of the bolts/nuts have surface
    rust.

    Marty
    

    RE: PT wood
    
    I have seen a couple of play "things" in public playgrounds made from
    PT wood (if it wasn't PT, it was stained to LOOK like PT wood). I can't
    remember where they were, but I would think that the town or towns
    involved would have taken into consideration the safety and/or legal
    factors mentioned in the replies to this note.  Maybe it was
    clear-coated as mentioned in (I think) .16. 

    Just thought I'd mention it.
    
    -Bob                                                        

    Thought some people might be interested....
    
    Ad in todays Globe for a place that builds swing sets from 4x4 Redwood
    timbers. Supposedly  competitively priced with those of lesser quality.
    Also movable.  Could be a interesting place to get ideas for designs
    and maybe even parts. 
    
    Great Northern Swing Co, in Haverhill, MA.  617-372-8554.
    
          

>    Ad in todays Globe for a place that builds swing sets from 4x4 Redwood
>    timbers. Supposedly  competitively priced with those of lesser quality.
>    Also movable.  Could be a interesting place to get ideas for designs
>    and maybe even parts. 
    
>    Great Northern Swing Co, in Haverhill, MA.  617-372-8554.
    
 

	Before any of you people decide to go out and get a swingset from 
	ANY (and I mean ANY because I spent 3 weeks last year pricing them 
	ALL),  be forewarned that you will pay thru the nose for any of these
	Swing Sets.   They are ALL between $600-$1200 for anything more than 
	one swing & one ladder.  


	Chuck         

	I just happen to have the Child-Life catalog handy. Here's what
	they say you'll get:

	1. Start with clear grain Douglas Fir, hemlock, and yellow cedar.

	2. Wolmanized pressure treatment (Fir and hemlock). 

	3. Double sanded

	4. Prime coat of penetrating enamel.

	5. Sanded again.

	6. Final coat of high quality enamel.

I'm in the same boat as you guys: my wife has decided that we MUST HAVE a
swing set/climbing frame, and now I have to avoid paying $1000 and up ...

There is a lot of good information in notes 92 and 882.  But what I need
are Plans.  Could some of the people who have actually build sets send me
copies of some, or give me references to specific books that I could get
from the library?  In return, I'ld volunteer to do the same for the next
happless father who asks.

Also, given the discussion of PT wood and poisoned splinters, why doesn't
anyone use cedar for these things?

    Andrew

    Someone must have sent something to all our wives; the guy in the
    next cube is doing one and, and next summer is my turn.  I just
    saw a set of plans for $4.99 at the lumber desk at Somerville in
    Westboro.  The guy beside me has done a price comparison for buying
    the lumber and supplies from one of the swing companies, versus
    doing his own buying from the lunberyards.  In either case he would
    to the labor (they wanted $250 for installation including concrete).
    Cost if bought from the dealer is around $750
    Cost if he buys from the yards is around $350-$400.
    The hardest thing to find were pressure treated dowels for the monkey
    bar setup; the swing people must mill them themselves.
    
    What he discovered is that the stock lumber is not the issue - it
    is the swing seats, sliding boards, etc etc, that you really cannot
    build yourself that these places mark up like heck.
    
    His idea for plans, by the way, is to go and look at one in detail,
    and then copy it!  You can see a setup for browsing at Shopper's
    World.
    
    Final advice:  Can you put it off till next year?  If you can, then
    go to the Home Show (sucha s the one in Worcester), and at least
    one of these companies will be there, with EXCELLANT "buy right
    now during the show" discount prices.  They had their $500-$600
    one selling at the show for $300, and it was the best one I ahd
    seen anywhere.
    
    Now if I can hold this project off for a couple of more months until
    Winter..............!
    
    -reed
    

    I am about to build a swing set for our 'lil darlin'.  I am concerned
    about a break due to a flaw in the lumber.  Is that possible or am I
    being overly cautious?  How would I check lumber for a flaw?  Or would
    it be safer to use doubled 2x4s rather than a single 4x4 so that if
    one breaks the other will be still holding? 

    Also, what is a reasable price for Douglas Fir?  Coldwell's quoted 
    about $9.50 for a 8 ft 2x4. 

    	Here's my 2 cents worth:  I think that the doubled 2X4's would
    be stronger than a single 4X4.  If memory serves me correctly, the
    same principle was used in the construction of the USS Constitution
    and other early 1800's American warship masts.  They would cut the
    masts in 4 and then bind them together with steel bands.  This made
    the mast stronger and less likly to "fail under fire".  Part of
    this was due to interruption of the travel of shock waves (due to
    hits from cannon balls) and part was due to a slight increase in
    flexability.  Also the point you made about the internal flaw is
    a valid one.  This concern can be reduced using the technique you
    mentioned.
    
    Rich
    :-)

    I have been slowly pecking away all summer at an outdoor play gym
    for my kids.  It is of my own design.  Design may by the wrong
    word, in that I started with a design and have been winging
    it ever since.
    
    In any case, I have recently stumbled on the latest add-on
    to the structure: a slide.  It is a very old, school-yard slide
    that is in need of some repair.  The folks I got it from got
    it from a school that was retiring it in 1960.  It is 8' high
    and the run is 16' long.  The ride home with the slide upside
    down in the back of my pickup was exciting (I was clearing
    traffic lights by inches).
    
    The hand rails are in fine shape, as is the ladder and general
    frame of the beast.  The sheet metal that you actually slide
    down on needs replacing.  It is bolted to the bottom of the
    rails, along with wooden slats for support.
    
    Does anyone know what kind of metal one uses on slides?  I
    called a sheet metal place (I am in Colorado Springs) and inquired
    about galvanized steel.  I assumed that I would want galvanized
    steel so it would stand up to the weather.  What I'm not so
    sure about is if it will be slippery enough for a slide.
                              
    Do any of you have any suggestions/ideas/caveats regarding
    replacing the sheet metal?  Are there coatings one could put
    on non-galvanized metal that would protect it and allow the
    surface to be slippery?  If the galvanized steel is not slippery
    enough, could a coating of something cure that?  Would such
    coatings stand up to kids sliding, running, etc. all over it?
    
    Sid

I think if you want to do it right the thing to use would be stainless steel.
I also believe it costs big $$$'s.

-mark

    re: .26 and sliding board
    
    I don't remember ever seeing a galvanized sliding surface.  It was
    always shiny, but I doubt if it was stainless.  I DO remember riding
    down them with waxed paper under us a couple of times to speed things
    up (works REAL well).  Maybe that, combined with use, will keep it
    clean. 
    
    -joet

    Re: .26  I also "designed" and winged-it through a swing set.  The only
    slide advice (from personal experience :-( ) I have is don't use aluminum
    flashing.  Sure it was cheap, but it has scratched all too easily - from
    sand, belt buckles, etc.
    Also, try your best to orient it anywhere but true south.  Ouch!

    re: the last few
    
    Stainless would probably be great but I'm sure we'd be talking
    megabucks.  I don't recall having seen galvanized sliding surfaces
    before (at least any that I recognized as galvanized) and I'm
    sure that constant use helps keep the surface shiny and smooth.
    
    The problem comes with winter.  I suppose I could take steel
    wool to it each spring and let bottoms do the rest for the
    season.  On hot summer days (like today) we'd probably run
    the hose up to the top and keep a slow trickle on.
    
    > Also, try your best to orient it anywhere but true south.  Ouch!

    As fate would have it (dumb luck, actually) it will be facing
    north.  By the way, the last addition was monkey bars (i.e.,
    hand over hand, like a suspended horizontal ladder).  For anyone
    who is interested in construction such an addition, I was able
    to construct it fairly cheaply and easily as follows:
    
    I used four 14' 2x6's and two lengths of 1" thinwall conduit. The
    conduit is not superstrong but in 18" lengths it is plenty good.
    1" conduit is 1.125" in diameter at the outside.  Drill two of the
    2x6's all the way through with 1.25" bit every 16 inches, leaving
    about 2' at either end.  Cut the conduit, with a hacksaw, into 21"
    lengths.  Laminate the drilled 2x6's to the undrilled ones and
    drive the conduit into the holes (a four pound hammer with a piece
    of 4x4 block work well for this).  The result looks like:
    
     _____________________________________________________________
    |_____________________________________________________________| 
    |_____________________________________________________________|
             ||     ||     ||     ||     ||     ||     ||     
             ||     ||     ||     ||     ||     ||     ||
             ||     ||     ||     ||     ||     ||     ||     
             ||     ||     ||     ||     ||     ||     ||
             ||     ||     ||     ||     ||     ||     ||     
             ||     ||     ||     ||     ||     ||     ||
    _________||_____||_____||_____||_____||_____||_____||_________
    |_____________________________________________________________| 
    |_____________________________________________________________|
    
    with the conduit through the inside 2x6's.  It's very strong
    and many kids can be hanging from, climbing on, jumping on,
    jumping from it at any one time and it shows no signs of stress.
    
    It is anchored to 4x4 posts, 5.5' above the ground (my kids
    are 6.5 and 4 years old).
    
    Anyway, thanks for the ideas.  I will price nongalvanized metal
    for the slide and will make inquiries in other places.  If
    I find out anything interesting, I will report it back here.
    BTW, for galvanized, 17' x 20" would run me $38 for 22 gauge
    or $44 for 20 gauge.
    
    Sid

    Check on the stainless steel price before you dismiss it out of
    hand.  It may not be as bad as you think, although it certainly
    will be more.  

I also think you should check the prices on stainless.  Some grades 
aren't that expensive.  I played on galvanized slides as a child.  I'm 
not sure how they got polished as smooth as they were, but I imagine a 
buffer and some jeweler's rouge should do the job.  Most of  the slides 
I played on were just cold rolled steel.  I don't know what they did to
keep it from rusting, but they often had a brownish or black color, so
maybe they used bluing or browning of the sort used on firearms.  Don't 
forget to give metal slides a coat of automobile paste wax once in a 
while.  Makes them go like crazy!!

In these high tech times, I would think you could make a dynamite slide 
with plywood and fiberglass resin.  It would be easy to scratch, but 
also easy to repair.  A thick enough coating should stand up.

					>>>==>PStJTT

    Well, I just called the same joint that quoted me $38 for 22
    gauge galvanized.  The 22 gauge stainless is $117.  Mind you,
    I haven't done any comparison shopping yet (there are a few
    listings in the yellow pages) so I may be able to do better.
    $117 is a bit steep for me.  I had thought about automobile
    paste wax.  I'm not sure how much wear that would take.  If
    it meant waxing once a month, that would be fine.  But it could
    easily be once every few days with use.
    
    The idea of plywood and fiberglass resin sounds interesting.
    Does it splinter like those corrugated fiberglass roofing sheets?
    
    Sid

    Try calling D.B. Cotton in Southbridge, Mass. for prices on
    steel (764-2583).  I don't know how much stainless they have,
    but they have just about everything else.

    > Try calling D.B. Cotton in Southbridge, Mass. for prices on
    > steel (764-2583).  I don't know how much stainless they have,
    > but they have just about everything else.

    I will be in Massachusetts next week but I doubt that American
    Airlines would let me bring the steel back on the plane :-).
    
    I have made progress, however.  I decided that since I only need
    the steel for the surface (the wood provides the structural
    integrity), I can go for real thin stuff.  I now have a quote for
    26 gauge stainless for $69.  This has reached the point of being
    very tempting, especially since the slide itself cost me only
    labor (6 three foot solid spikes driven through holes in plates
    into rocky ground and then welded to those plates; it's a good
    thing I used to make my living with a shovel).  I'll discuss
    it with my wife tonight (this outdoor play gym was her idea to
    begin with, after all). 
    
    I've also thought more about the suggestion of fiberglass.
    While that may be an excellent surface, I have reservations
    for purely aesthetic reasons.  This is a really classy, old
    slide.  If slides were the kinds of things that go into antique
    shops, this would be one.  It has real character.  I think
    a shiny, steel surface fits that character better than fiberglass.
    
    Sid
                                                

    Opps - I missed your comment about being in Colordo the first time
    through.  Yes, if you have something else providing the structural
    strength, 26 gauge ought to do it I would think, if you're careful
    to secure all the edges so they can't lift up.  Aside from bending
    easily, I suspect that the edges could give a *NASTY* cut if they
    got within range of small knees and hands (or even big knees and
    hands, for that matter).  As I recall slide designs though, the
    edges get covered by the side rails, don't they?  You may just have
    problems on the top and bottom.
    

    Yes, the edges get covered by the side rails.  At the top and
    bottom, I will want to bend the steel around and under the
    wood so that the topmost and bottommost bolts go through, in
    order, rail, steel, wood, steel.  My only concern there is
    that the steel may crack when bent that way.
    
    Also, I cannot buy one continuous 17' sheet.  They come in
    maximum 10' lengths.  Where the two pieces join, I plan to
    do the same as at the top and bottom and butt them up together,
    like so (side view, ignoring curves and orientation):
    
    
       rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
       -------------------------  ---------------------------- 
      |wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww||wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww| 
       ----                 ----  ----                    ---- 
    
    where r = rail, w = wood, and - = steel.
    
    Does anyone see any problems with this scheme, or have any
    suggested improvement?
    
    Sid

    One thought for the seam: find a good welder and have him weld
    the two pieces together for you.  You'd want to find a GOOD
    welder, because it's 1) stainless and 2) very thin material,
    but it's certainly within the capability of somebody who is
    reasonably competent.  Just tell him what kind of steel it
    is (the place you buy it should be able to give you the ASI
    number) so he'll know what kind of welding rod to use.  Your
    idea would probably work, but it would also allow water to get
    in under the steel and rot the plywood.  As an alternative,
    I think I might overlap the sheets, bending the sheet on top
    over on itself for about 1/4" to give a finished edge; better yet,
    have a sheetmetal shop do an interlocking seam for you (DEFINITELTY 
    not to scale!):
    
    high end
    ---------------------------------V
    			      >----  V
    			      ^  ----<
    			      ^--------------------------------------------
    
    This would make a small ridge, but I don't think it would be a problem.
    I've not worked much with stainless, so I'm not sure about
    cracking when bent.  I doubt that you'll have a problem.  Welding
    would probably be the best bet though, if you can find somebody
    to do it, and possibly cheaper than getting a sheetmetal shop to
    do the seam.

    Where can I get structural grade Douglas fir 2x4s in the Harvard, 
    MA, area?  I have found interior grade 2x4s (8ft, @9.50 each) and 
    4x4s (8ft, $8.70 for structural grade) at Coldwells, Berlin, but 
    can't find affordable 2x4s.  Splitting a 4x4 does not look 
    practical. 

    I built an A frame swing for our 'lil darling.  The look on her 
    face was worth it.  The legs are D. fir 4x4s and the top beam is a 
    D. fir 4x6.  The legs sit on pressure treated 2x4 so the fir is 
    not in ground contact.  Some bracing is PT 2x4s.  Those I would 
    like to replace with fir.  PT is ugly! especially next to the fir. 

    Next is a jungle gym.  That will be D. fir, if I can find it.  It
    definitely will not be PT. 

    FWIW, D. fir is stronger and heavier than PT, and much easier to 
    work with. 

    FWIW2, I bought a flexible plastic swing seat with chain at Sears 
    for $9.99.  Not a good deal.  It is too stiff for our 2 year old 
    to get onto easily.  I will make a wooden seat, her size. 

    FWIW3, a fellow at Somerville lumber told me that the Japenese buy 
    most of the Douglas fir which is why it is so hard to find. 

    Well, I found a place that would sell me two 10' x 20" sheets
    of 26 guage stainless steel for $55.00.  And I'll tell you
    what, that stainless steel is slicker 'n shit.  I finally got
    the whole thing into finished form and attached to the play
    gym yesterday.
    
    Once again, HOME_WORK has come through.  I doubt that I would
    have considered stainless had I not been encouraged to do so
    by my fellow DIYers here.  And stainless was definitely the
    way to go.  
    
    Unfortunately, tomorrow's task is much less fun -- wallpapering.
    
    Thanks to all.       -- Sid

    I have been reading both swingset notes and found the phone number
    for Great Northern Swing Co. in .6 . They are still there and they
    have an 800 number for outside of Mass: 1-800-642-4012.
    

    I saw a Gym set at the Home show in Boston on Sat. that had everything
    you would want. Rope ladder, rope swing, fort w/ slide swingset
    attached etc. It was by far the sturdiest set I've seen. 10 yr.
    warrantee, made of California (heart) Red wood. The price was a
    whopping $1500 big ones. When I told the guy I might build one myself
    his comment was " THere are 49 safety regulations you must meet
    if you screw up on one of these and a neighbor's kid gets hurt on
    your swing set you're liable." Has anyone looked into this or even
    thought about it? If so could you give me some feedback as to how
    true it is. What good is swingset for your kids if their friends
    can't play on it because you're afraid they might get sued?
    
    Also has anyone bought this set? The company is Rainbow Co. out
    of Montana. From the previos notes I read I can definitely get cheaper
    sets and most definitely build it cheaper myself. This wouldn't
    be a first time project and I have all the necessary tools.
    
    Jay

>    his comment was " THere are 49 safety regulations you must meet
>    if you screw up on one of these and a neighbor's kid gets hurt on

	Sounds like he wants to sell you a $500 swing set for $1500.

	Build it yourself, have fun, & as long as your home insurance
	is paid up !  Why worry ?

	Chuck

    Hmm.  I would be very, very surprised if there are 49 regulations
    on swingsets (even in big-brother Massachusetts).  It is possible
    to pay $69.95 for one made out of thin gauge elcheapo steel which
    I wouldn't bet 25 cents against collapsing within a year.  These
    are just as "legal" as the $1500 jobs.

    I believe you are being given an All-American sales job.  The commision
    on a $1500 swing might be $150.  Not bad pay for 15 minutes of
    bullshitting a customer.
      

    If your really worried about the "49 regulations", why not just
    copy the design of the one your thinking of buying?  Just walk into
    the store with a tape measure, pad and pencil, and start taking
    notes.
    
    Jeff

>    his comment was " THere are 49 safety regulations you must meet
>    if you screw up on one of these and a neighbor's kid gets hurt on
>    your swing set you're liable." 

Ahhhh... is the implication supposed to be that if you meet all 49 regs
and a kid gets hurt, that you WON'T be liable?  I'd rate that as a prettly
slim chance.  I agree with everyone else; you were being subjected to 
slimy sales techniques.  The only difference should be that if you buy
one, you can drag the maker into court with you when the kid gets hurt,
if you build it, you go alone.
					>>>==>PStJTT

    Hey - I'd like to introduce that salesman to the folks who were
    selling the "magnetizers" that were supposed to do everything
    from soften water to make your food taste better.....
    
    There is a wooden swing company store at Olde Shrewsbury Village
    in Shrewsbury, MA, that offers a "kit" swingset that you assemble
    and finish yourself, at some savings.  I did not care much for the
    quality of their products, though, but they were about half the price
    of the ones I saw at the show.
    
    					Steve

    Years ago there were two companies making wooden swing sets in Mass.
     One was in Hopkinton and the other in Framingham.
    
    Child Design or something like that.
    
    Local vendors may be cheaper due to shipping, factory pickup may
    even be available.
    
    	-Barry-

    If you have your heart set on redwood, Great Northern Swing in
    Haverhill can probably beat the price you were quoted.  It will
    still be big bucks, though.  Building it yourself is really not
    that hard if you have a little experience.
    
    I used the Great Northern Swing catalog to design my own set of
    plans.  The swings can be bought separately, and other hardware
    is readily available almost everywhere.  
    
    The slide surface can be harder to do if you want it out of metal.  I came
    up with a real inexpensive substitute: Tempered hardboard (masonite)
    with 3 coats of spar varnish.  It is really slick and doesn't get
    hot like metal does.  After 2 seasons of very hard use, It needed
    a little sanding and another couple of coats.
    
    Doing it yourself has a a great payback (unlike some other DIW
    projects).  My unit cost me $250 and 40 hours of time and it's better
    than the $1300 units I've seen advertised.  
    
    As far as regulations go, the other replies are right on.  A kid
    can trip over a stick and you could be liable.  Just make the unit
    with no obvious dangerous defects (eg. don't use nails that could
    pull out).  Good luck
    
    Bob 
                       

    Well thanks for the advice guys. It looks like I'll be building
    my own super duper swing/gym set. I have a picture of the set I
    saw at the Home show and I called The Great Northern Swing Co.
    in Haverhill yesterday to get their brochure. I figure if I start
    now I can be done in time for my daughter's birthday in April.
    I'll let you know how it turns out.
    /Jay

    Update on doing it yourself . . .
    
    Two years ago I completed a Gym Set from a set of plans. These plans
    still appear in some of the building supply/lumber stores in the
    area at approx $4.99!   These plans included :
                         
                      - an 8x8 structure 
                      - 3 multi-level decks
                      - a sliding pole from top deck
                      - a knotted climbing rope from mid-deck
                      - a ground level rope ladder to top and 
                        wood ladder to bottom deck
                      - and sandbox on ground level 
    
    all out of sealed PTW supported by quantity-8 4x4 posts cemented
    4ft deep! Has held up great - no incidents of PTW/Kid problems.
    Approximate cost in "86" $600-650, but is blows away those kinder-
    king-timber-time swing sets!
    
    BTW - has anyone notice the growing popularity of city/town sponsored
    enourmous play structures -- out of PTW -- built by army engineers
    & city/town volunteers! Town's of Lunenburg & Gardner are most recent
    entries!                                                  
    
    Alan
    
    
    
                   
                     
                         

    Wickes on Rt 27 in Acton, Ma now carries a variety of swing/play
    structure hardware, along with free plans for many different types
    of structures.  They range from simple to complex, and can be grouped
    together to make very involved play areas.  
    
    Bob

    I saw a slide at a swing store in Amherst NH this past weekend,
    and the surface was plywood covered with formica. Seemed to be pretty
    sturdy and very smooth.
    
    Has anyone had any experience with this alternative?
    
    Dave

I've seen the formica-(or similar)-on-plywood slide.  Seems nice and slippery
in the store.  It seems to me there may be a couple drawbacks:

	- How well does it stand up to abrasion?  Kids bring any manner
	  of things along with them as they slide, including a lot of gritty
	  stuff.  Yes, metal slides can scratch, but if formica scratches ...
	  (see next)

	- How well are the edges sealed from water?  Formica is great, but if
	  water ever gets under it - between it and the wood it's glued on -
	  it can unglue, and the wood can swell, making the surface unsmooth.
	  And, as I hinted at above, you may get the same results from deep
	  scratches.

    We are looking to build a swingset plus platform.  These are the
    prices from Grossmans (Manchester, NH)
    
    		Expedition model swingset		$239
    		Includes:  2 soft-seat swings
    			5 ft high platform w/ tarp cover
    			
    		Slide					$109
    
    		Upgrade from PTW to redwood		$ 50
                                                       ------
    		Total					$389 
    
    Is this a good price?  Everything but the tools are included and
    poured footings are not needed, they say.
    
    

    	That sounds better then what i just payed for mine. I bought
    	the Expedition at Grossmans in Fitchburg. The kit was $240, and
    	the wood was around antother $100.00. I made a little change in 
    	the design, but the wood wasn't included. The material list
    	calls for 26 2x4x8's and 3 2x4x12's. I ended up with 9 extra
    	2x4x8's and 3 2x4x12's. I didn't get the slide yet because that
    	seems awfull steep for on piece of wood.
    
    
    		dave b

    
    Some additional info on the slide:
    
    Seems that last year Grossman's sold the slide for $50-60.  I went
    looking at them last weekend to add one to a set I made on my own.
    I couldn't believe they had doubled in price!!  I noticed yesterday
    in a flyer from Hancock Lumber (they have several locations in NH),
    that they have slides for $59.  
    
    Another comment on the kits from Grossmans.  I found that buying
    swings, etc. on their own can be fairly expensive.  I ordered swings
    through Sears for about $20 ea.  Now you can get or make the swings
    themselves for much less of course, but I wanted the flexible rubber
    type.  In the end, with the exception of the $109 slide!, I don't
    think the $199 price is too bad.
    
    -Mark
    
    

    re .55:  Why did you pay $100 extra for the wood?   Was that just
    for the changes you were making?  Grossman's tells me that the prices
    I had included all the wood.

    Only the set that wes for 199.00 had the wood included.
    Moores in Leominster had the same deal, only they tell
    	you upfront in the add that the wood is extra.
    
    
    	Overall, its still a good sturdy investment.
    
    dave

    My swing set goes up this weekend, weather permitting.
    
    What can I use for a sliding pole?
    
    And, is masonite a good solution for the slide surface?
    
    Thanks.
    
    Mike

I would got to a fence supply place and buy the 1 1/2" galvanized pipe.
We had a two 20 footers coupled together on our tree house as kids and
I still have fond memories of the fun we had.  Momentarily releasing your hands
just above the coupling came naturally to everyone on their second trip ;-) 

-Bob

    re .59
    
    If you use masonite (hardboard) for a slide surface, give it two or
    three coats of exterior (spar) varnish.  This should last you a couple
    of seasons, unless your kids use it for a sled launching ramp in the
    winter time, like mine do.  Also, make sure you use tempered hardboard.
    One nice feature is that it doesn't feel as hot as a metal surface
    would when in the hot sun.
    
    Bob

    Most of the swing sets at the home show this year featured Formica
    laminate as the sliding surface.
    
    /jim 

    What about PVC pipe for your sliding pole?  Should be cheaper than
    galvanized and easier to cut and assemble.  Just a thought.
    
    Jim

    If you do choose PVC, get at least Schedule 40 pipe.  Schedule 40
    indicates the thickness of the walls of the pipe.  Schedule 40 is rigid
    pipe and I would guess would handle most kids up to 100 lbs if both
    ends of the pipe are securely fixed in place and the pipe did not
    exceed 15 ft in length.  
    
    You could make the pipe stronger by filling it with concrete.  This
    would reduce flex as the pipe would provide support to the concrete and
    visa versa.

    
    
    	The perfect size(IMO) is signpost.  Talk to a plumper about it, or
    a local Sign company!

    My swing set is half up, but I find I can't drill clean round
    holes for the ladder rungs using a flat bit.
    
    What bit/tool do I need for this job?
    
    Thanks.
    
    Mike

    A forstner(sp?) style bit will drill nice clean flat bottomed holes. 
    Most building supply places carry them for around $10 in the size you
    probably need.  Expensive, yes, but like the difference between a
    Mercedes and a Yugo, when comparing it to a spade bit.
    
    Most come with a 3/8" shaft, and you should use a variable speed drill,
    since they work better at slow speeds.
    
    Bob
    

re.66
	Mike if you can find a friend with a drill press..... It would make
	for a nicer finished product and a lot less labor, if you could jig
	them up and drill thru at the same time.

Good luck
Frank

 	I'm looking for plans to build a garden swing.  The kind that
    has two opposite benches and a foot platform that connects them.
    Anyone know of a publication that has such plans.  I haven't been
    able to find them anywhere.
    
    Thanks,
    
    George

    
    
     Help,
    
      I am planning to build a slide for my childrens pressure treated
    swingset. I have the design figured out, I just need to locate a
    source for the metal sliding surface. I am not even sure what is
    normally used for this application, so any help/tips would be
    appreciated
      I live in Nashua, so I am preferably looking for an economical
     source in the southern N.H., or central Mass area. 
    
                                                          
                                                        

    If you check at a good-sized lumber yard, you may be able to get a
    sheet of aluminum (used for flashing) that is wide and long enough.
    Flashing typically comes in fairly narrow, long rolls, but I have 
    also seen it in sheets - I think one industry standard size is 3' x 8'.
    
    Failing that, a sheetmetal shop ought to have something, and as long 
    as you buy a stock size and don't ask them to cut it, the price shouldn't
    be too bad.  

    Yes, depending on the desired width, you could get some roll flashing
    at most well-stocked hardware stores/lumber yards.
    
    According to some plans I came across in Handyman magazine, another way
    to go would be to use a piece of formica (or similar material). Don't
    know about the ease and/or cost of getting a piece in the proper size,
    but it supposedly has the advantage of not getting too hot when
    subjected to a lot of sunshine. 
    
    Please post an update with your ultimate decision, as this is one of my
    planned projects for this season (after getting the roof vented, the
    house painted, the stockade fence installed, the deck enclosed, etc..:^) 
    
    Freddie
     

When I built a play set for my kids about 6 years ago (from pressure treated
wood) I used aluminum flashing for the slide.  Here's how I did it:

   1)	I routed out a 1/2" deep channel in the 2x4 (slide) rails with a 1/2"
	router bit.

   2)	Cut a sheet of 1/2" exterior grade (CDX) plywood to the appropriate
	width and length.

   3)	Wrapped the flashing around the plywood (complete sliding surface,
	edges, and 1/2" overlap on the back).

   4)	Press fit the rail over the plywood/aluminum sandwich, and used a few
	4d nails from the underside of the rail to hold the rail to the plywood.

Because the 1/2" plywood is undersized, there was a nice tight fit, but not so
tight it split the rail.

This has held up well for the last several years.

One concern I had was with the aluminum oxidizing and leaving black stains
on the kid's clothes.  This proved not to be a problem.  (The sap from the
pine trees above the set proved to be a bigger headache.)

- Mark

re .2:

If you're a yuppie, you could use Corian.

re .3:

Isn't �" plywood half an inch thick?

    
      Thanks for all the advice, including a phone call pointing me toward
    a pre-made fiberglass slide at HQ.
      I am still going to pursue the Wooden/metal version ( at least
    initially) , and I like the idea's in Re .2. Seems simple, yet sturdy.
    I will look for either the flashing or the formica over the next couple
    of weeks.
    
      Only one question: As Re .3 mentioned, isn't 1/2 inch plywood 1/2"
    thick? 
    
                            I will update this note when I am finished    
                                                
                                                                Thanks,
                                

RE: plywood thickness

    All the plywood I have run across lately (except the metric variety) is
    1/32" undersized.  normally this is not a problem...except when you want
    to dado another piece of wood to receive the plywood.  (There is now a
    set of router bits, by Eagle, undersized by 1/32" to allow for this.)

- Mark

    A metal slide in direct sunlight gets very very hot.  Enough to burn
    your kid's bottom or legs.  I would suggest the plastic ones.  You
    also can't get any splinters from the plastic ones.  I don't think
    any of the slides are made out of fiberglass.  There are ones made
    from a plastic resin (looks somewhat fibrous).  These tend to stain
    easily from spring pollen or fall leaves.
    
    -al

    I saw the one at H.Q. and it looks like plastic.
    
    If you come across anything I too am interested in what you did...
    
    Steve

    re .2, others
    
    I did build a slide using plastic laminate (eg Formica) and it has
    worked out extremely well.  I happened to have a large enough piece
    left over from when I did my countertops, but you can buy it in varying
    widths and lengths; like 25" x 8'.  It's usually less than $2 per
    square foot.
    
    It's very easy to work.  You can cut it with a table saw, circular saw,
    or router bits.  It doesn't get hot in the sun, and it has stood up
    very well for 3 years now.
    
    Bob

    I can confirm that plastic laminate will stand up to the weather.
    I made a cover for the back of my pickup truck about six years
    ago.  It's covered with plastic laminate, and still doing fine.

    
       I'm starting to get sold on the "formica slide" concept.
    
       Where is a good source to purchase plastic laminate?
    
                       

    Somerville Lumber stocks a variety of sizes, and the price was was the
    best around when I did my countertops 3 years ago.  It was about $1.70
    per square foot.  A 24" x 7' piece would be about $25.
    
    You might try calling a countertop fab shop.  They may have some odd
    size pieces that would be perfect for a slide, but unusable for a
    counter (less than 24" wide).  You might get a very good deal
    
    Bob
    
    

	This formica idea sounds good. But I have what may be
	a dumb question: Is it "slippery" enough? I hate to
	see kids' slides that don't work because they're just
	not slick enough. Also, what's a good angle for a slide?
	And, does it need to be anchored at the bottom end?

	...Robert

    Some people wax their slides to make them slippery.  They use whatever
    they use for their car.
    
    -al

Or do what I did when I was a kid...slide down on waxed paper...sure could get
going fast that way :-) :-) wheeeeeee..


- Mark

    The directions from the swing set I bought for the kids
    specifically recommended rubbing down the slide periodically with
    a sheet of waxed paper.  Working very well!

    My "Formica" slide is set at about 35 degrees (7 foot long slide, 4ft
    elevation).  Any steeper, and it would provide quite a jolt at the
    bottom (very abrupt transition).  At this angle I don't need any wax.
    
     It's not anchored at the end and it doesn't need to be.
    
    Bob

    Silicone spray is the slider's product of choice...you might want to
    install air bags at the discharge end tho...

    I helped a freind build two slides for his kids (a short straight one,
    and a longer undulating one).  We got the laminate for free...  Spent
    about half an hour digging through the dumpster outside a laminate
    manufacturers building one Sunday afternoon.

                                                              
      As the originator of this note, I thought I would share with others how
    I finally decided to build a slide.
    
      I resorted to the plans that came with the original swingset. It was
    a very simple design that basically consists of a 1/2" thick exterior
    plywood base ( 8' long by 16" wide), Aluminum flashing for a sliding
    surface ( I substituted white formica, as recommended in this file ),
    pressure treated 2 by 4's (for rails and legs) , and some 1" by 2"s 
    and a short piece of chain to connect it to the rung on the swingset
    ladder.
       I had the 1/2" plywood left over, so the major cost was the
    laminate, and the lumber. I ended up spending $40 ( and most of
    Saturday ) vs $80 for one of the ready made yellow plastic slides.
    Cost effective? Probably not, but more satisfying, and I think it looks
    better. I also don't mind substituting sweat for cash (it doesn't show up
    on the American express bill! :) )
       
       Bottom line, it turned out great, and the kids think its wonderful
    ( thats all that matters, doesn't it? ). The laminate was a definate
    upgrade from the aluminum, its plenty slippery, and will make the
    slide much more "user friendly" :)
    
                          Thanks again for all the suggestions,
               
                                                          Dan
       
                      
    

      I too put together a slide out of plywood and laminate last
      weekend, and my daughter seemed very pleased with the results.
      So thanks for the ideas, folks.
      I waxed the formica surface with car wax before final assembly
      (a job my 4-year-old was able to help with, to her great joy).
      I don't know how much that helped but it didn't seem to hurt.
      And if I hadn't screwed up measuring and cutting the laminate 
      first time, so that I had to go buy another piece (standard 
      procedure on any Noble project), it would have worked out 
      pretty inexpensive.

      ...Robert

    
    MR MODERATOR, if this is not appropriate for this file, please feel
    free to move/delete it.
    
    
    Playground Question:  I am trying to figure out what material is best
    to put on the ground, beneath my daughter's swing set??
    I am outlining it (2' beyond swing legs) with 6x6 PT timbers and 
    want to fill it with sand, mulch, sawdust, etc......
    
    What do you recommend and why ??
    
    
    
    thanks
    Don
    
    

    
    I believe it was HOMETIME that did a show on this. They recommended
    material for under kids playsets is pea stone. Sand compresses and
    (especially when wet) becomes very firm with very little give on
    impact. You can buy the full length version of the show on playscapes
    at most home centers for about $10.
    
    								- Mac
    
    		
                                              

	The previous owners of our house had a swingset with some sort of
	coarse sand under it. It's still quite loose and soft, after bing
	there for 2 years. I don't know what the technical term for it woudl
	be, but it's coarser than beach sand.

	In fact, if you want it, you can take it away for free. All it's
	doing in my yard is looking stupid until I get the chance to do some
	grading and filling.

	Roy

Sand is very good, but you have to keep it clean.  For example, neighborhood
cats will think you've set up a giant litterbox for them.  A few inches of
mulch also works, but needs to be replaced every year or two.  What you
DON'T want is grass!

There are books on the subject of building your own play structures that
have extensive discussions on what the surrounding material should be.
You can find these at most building supply stores.

				Steve

    Stone?  Sand?  Gee, I'd hate to fall down in that stuff.
    
    Handyman magazine had a front-cover article on building a SAFE
    play area.  They recommended six inches of material like bark
    mulch (their recommendation was based on recommendations from
    playground safety engineers).
    
    I'm fairly sure this issue was published within the past year;
    you may be able to find it in a library.  The cover had a picture
    of a playhouse-like affair on legs.

I second pea gravel.  They use it on the plagrounds on the local schools.
When you fall on it it displaces out from under you, providing a "cusioning"
effect.  In addition, it doesn't get tracked into the house like sand.

Six inches appears to be a good depth.

I was just involved in a job using peastone in a play area for a day care/
kindergarten. The State of NH inspects these and peastone was approved. believe
it had to be x" deep. I want to say 12" but I'm not positive but of course for
your home use it can be whatever depth you want anyway.

Paul

�What you
�DON'T want is grass!
    
    Why not?

Because grass is extremely abrasive, and the soil it's in becomes compacted
and hard as concrete.  All of the advice I have read about playground
areas has warned that grass is about the worst you can use.

				Steve

    Hi,
    
    I have unwashed sand:
      works fine does get a little compacted, cheap by the yard, makes a great
      big sandbox, does track in the house some, did see a cat in there 
      yesterday.
    
    My brothers used a crushed stone as small as pea stone but jagged edges
      works fine (never seen it cut/skin knees) probably better than the
      sand for absorbing impact, cheap by the yard, can't use it as a
      sandbox, the kids bring it everywhere (pockets, slide, EVERYWHERE)
    
    
    2 or so cents
    paul

    RE: a few
    
    Be careful of terminology though.  I too have used peastone, but found
    that a finer grade was available.  What I expected as peastone is
    called rice-stone here in southern Ma.  Peastone here is considered to
    be 1/4" crushed stone.  Ricestone is smaller than that.
    
    Dan

    Also, grass will magically dispappear within weeks of the installation
    of the play set.  I have seen this happen many times at friends'
    houses.  We recently put up a playset and elected bark mulch, about 6"
    deep.  I think I've seen it recommended that 8" is about right for
    impact absorption.  It may be that the depth recommended would depend
    on the material.
    
    Anyway, the bark mulch compacted fairly quickly, perhaps 12" would be
    better.  We plan on renewing it next summer.  It does get trapped in
    clothes and brought into the house, so does the sand from the sand box. 
    And the one neighborhood kid perfers not to step on the bark mulch with
    bare feet.  So far, there have been several falls, but no bruises or
    stop in the play.
    
    I think pea stone would have been best, but we elected not to use it
    because we were thinking of moving the playset in 1-2 years.  Bark
    mulch would mulch into the ground, pea stone would have to be moved.
    
    One other thing about grass (and dirt) is that it will be remain muddy
    for a longer time after a rain storm, just when you want the kids to be
    outside.  Pea stone and sand drain very well.  And so far, our bark
    mulch has not been a problem directly after the rains.
                     

Get yourself some peastone. It's like sand except that the granules are
approximately 1/8" in diameter. As mentioned in a previous note, it
dosen't pack when wet, and in fact encourages better drainage, and absorbs
a fair amount of energy when fallen upon.

    
    My exterminator said NOT to use bark/wood chips.  All sorts of nasty
    critters wood then join the kiddies on the play set (scorpions here,
    wood ticks in the NE, I'd imagine).  He suggested sand.
    
    
    Bruce

    
    Thanks to everyone whom replied.  For my application I am going to 
    look at peastone.  I was swaying towards mulch as my 2nd alternative.
    Again, thanks.
    
    
    Don
    
    
    

Just called the number referred in -.1 and got some doctors office
who'd inherited the swing 800 number.

I am in the process of putting together a metal swing set for my three kids.  I 
wish I could have afforded one of those fancy wooden sets, but it just wasn't in 
the cards.  Anyway, is there something I can apply to all the metal surfaces 
which will eliminate/reduce eventual rusting, as well as prevent/get rid of any 
sharp edges or burrs?

	I'd think that note 92 or 882 would be adequate, rather than
	starting a new topic...

	Roy

Be pretty very throrough cleaning up the swingset - I have a scar
from a metal jungle gym.  The injury occured oh, 25 years ago.

      Does anyone know where I could find wood lock-washers, in the 
    southern N.H. area ?  This type of lock-washer digs into the wood
    with four prongs when tightened on carriage bolts, used on swing
    sets.  I checked Home Depot and Sommerville Lumber with no luck.
    
                                                              -Jeff

Try Hammar Hardware or Osgood's.

    Steenbeke's in Salem, on rt 97, just off 28 has a large selection of
    hardware and they do carry the nut/washer combo item you're looking
    for.
    
    ~j

    I have just purchased a swing set for the kids and need to anchor it to
    the ground. The groung in real hard and rocky so the Auger anchor I
    tried did not work and I've had trouble trying to locate another kind
    (cork screw/stake type). I think I am going to go with pouring cement
    around the legs. (This was mentioned in the manual as an alternative).
    I have never worked with cement so I need some pointers/hints on wow to
    mix it, pour it, etc. The holes are 12" in diameter and about six
    inches deep. I have the legs resting on a brick in the hole (for
    support). Also, I don't have a wheel barrel to mix cement (and would
    like to avoid purchasing one for such a small job). Is there something
    else I could use to mix this amount of cement?
    
    
    
    Thanks in advance
    Mark

>     I have never worked with cement so I need some pointers/hints on wow to
>     mix it, pour it, etc. The holes are 12" in diameter and about six

    Buy bags of ready mix at your local hardware, garden or home
    repair center. Quite easy to use, just follow the instructions on
    the bag. Biggest bit of advice is to add water SLOWLY! It doesn't
    take much water to go from a too dry of a mix to a too soupy of a
    mix. You want a fairly stiff mix anyways and cement is always
    wetter than it looks.

>    support). Also, I don't have a wheel barrel to mix cement (and would
>    like to avoid purchasing one for such a small job). Is there something
>    else I could use to mix this amount of cement?

    A wheel barrow IS the ideal tool to use for this job, along with a
    hoe to mix the cement. You could use a 5 gallon bucket, but you'd
    have to split the cement bags into 2 - 3 batches and it would be
    difficult to get a good mix.

    If you gonna play the homeowner game, you've got to have to tools.
    Projects are an EXCELLENT excuse to buy more tools! ;-). 

    But then a wheel barrow is a pretty basic tool for a homeowner to
    have around. What did you do with the dirt/rocks that you dug out
    of the hole? Haul it away shovel full by shovel full. A wheel
    barrow would have been handy to have for this part of the job as
    well.

    Charly

Most big building supply places that carry Quikcrete and similar
products will also carry plastic masonry tubs. They measure about
2.5' x 4' x 1', and are constructed of black medium weight poly-something.
They work almost as well as a wheelbarrow for mixing and normally
cost under 20 dollars. Easy to clean and they last quite some time if
you're careful not to damage them. Empty the bag of ready mix into
the tub, spread it out with a hoe, add water and mix with the hoe
and a trowel.

You'd do well to buy a short length of 12 sonotube and cut rings of
the right depth to line the holes around the legs, put some gravel
in the bottoms and then shovel the concrete into the sonotube rings.
If you pour concrete directly into the soil, it will dry out too
quickly as the soil absorbs the water, and you'll end up with weak
concrete. You can backfill around the rings before you pour and tamp
it down good.

Re:  .0

                           < some text deleted >

>
>    inches deep. I have the legs resting on a brick in the hole (for
>    support). Also, I don't have a wheel barrel to mix cement (and would
>    like to avoid purchasing one for such a small job). Is there something
>    else I could use to mix this amount of cement?
>


As an alternative to the wheelbarrel and as an anchor you could find four
5 or 7 or 10 gallon pails such as bulk grout, Spackling, foundation tar,
etc. etc. come in (check construction sited)  [you could buy any kind of
5 gallon pails...].  Buy the Redi-Mix and mix it up in the pails, set the
pails down in the ground and set the swing-set legs into them.  Once the
cement is thoroughly cured (~48 hrs) fill the holes and tamp the earth firm.
Watering the dirt after filling the holes will help it to compact tightly
'round the anchors.  Let the ground stabilize b4 using the swing........

-jw

    I just did this the other day, and I was considerably less exacting in
    my methods. I put the swing set where it was going and dug holes for
    each of the six legs with a post hole digger. I went perhaps 8-11" into
    the ground. I mixed two bags of Quikrete in my wheel barrow, (used a
    shovel, didn't even think about using the hoe, duh!), moved the swing
    set into the holes, and poured a shovelful or two into each hole. Now
    the swing set is, as my grandfather would say, "tighter than a bull's
    ***." And I really would have only needed to use 1 bag of cement for
    the 6 legs (maybe a little more). I ended up with quite a bit of extra.
    The swing was ready for use the next day and is extremely solid. There
    were 4-5 kids all going to town on it yesterday, and it didn't move at
    all.

    On monday I poured the cement and after 3 days I let the kids go at it
    on the swing set. The manual for the swing set said I should wait 7 days
    before it should be used but it seemed to be solid so I let it go. I
    just noticed yesterday that one of the legs was sliding back and forth
    into the cement about a quarter of an inch. This is not much
    considering that I have 5 other legs that are solid. Anyway, I was
    wondering if there was a way (short of breaking up the cement and
    re-pouring) I could seal that leg up again so it does not move at all.
    
    
    
    Mark

    Given that there is likely little for the concrete to 'grab' on any of
    the legs, I would think that each leg should have something added to it
    to enable a better grab to the concrete. Like drilling holes and
    inserting a long bolt, or piece of re-rod through at right angles. I
    would extend this to include driving cut re-rod through the wet cement
    into surrounding soil. I have seen swinging swings pulling large
    concrete blocks out of the ground.
    
    But, that's something that should have been done earlier. If I were
    you, I would go buy a half inch masonry bit and a half inch standard
    bit and drill some holes diagonally through the concrete, to and
    through the legs, and out the other side. Insert steel spikes and drive
    into the probably-still-not-set-concrete. Might be overkill, but it
    will anchor it better.

              <<< Note 5650.6 by MRKTNG::BROCK "Son of a Beech" >>>


	If you're going to do anything to the concrete, do it
FAST.  Concrete gets harder the older it gets - reaching full
strength at about a month, if properly cured.  It's getting tougher
as we write and read...