Conference 7.286::home_work

	I need to install a few outlets, switchs, and ceiling lights in my
house.  The locations are from the attic onto the second floor ceiling, on
the first floor ceiling between the second and first floors and in various
walls.  What I would like is some advice as how to best snake the wiring
into and thru all these locations.  Can anyone help me?

							Thanks,
							Jorge'

Oh, boy.  The main ingredients are good luck coupled with a good 
imagination.  Every situation is different, of course, and the job
of snaking wires can range from trivial to impossible.  It also
depends on how "invisible" you want the finished job to be.  There
are various tricks you can use, and obviously an experienced
electrician knows a lot more of them than I do.  Some I've used
or heard about include:

Take off a baseboard or door molding, rout out a groove in the back, 
and run the wire along the groove.

Run the wire up along a chimney.

Follow plumbing.

Run wires up to an unfinished attic (or down to the cellar) and
go from room to room that way.

If you've got to cut an access hole in a wall that has wallpaper, cut
out a square of wallpaper on 3 sides, wet the square to loosen it, and
fold down the wallpaper before you cut the hole.  After you patch the
hole, reglue the wallpaper to make a nearly invisible fix.

I've neve been able to do it, but people always talk about putting
one snake through one hole, another snake through another hole, and
wiggling them around until the end of one catches on the other, so you
can pull one all the way through and then pull the wire back.  X-ray
vision is a big help for this stunt.

Helpful tools include a  L O N G  5/8" or 3/4" drill, two wiring snakes,
and a keyhole saw.  Plus infinite patience and a helper you won't end
up yelling at.

Steve

	Good luck... I once wired an old house using this method. I
recently purchased another old house that needs rewiring. This time
I'm tearing the walls out and doing it right. Based on my experience,
the time you save (or $$$ if you're paying an electrician to do it,)
will more than pay for the re-sheathing, especially if the walls need
other work, such as insulation or cosmetic fixes.
	However... you asked about snaking wires through existing
walls, so... Things to watch out for are... Wainscoating - there's
usually an impetetrable 2X4 at the top. You'll have to tear out a
section to drill through it. Fire-stops - many old houses will
have horizontal 2X4's embedded in the walls to discourage the
"chimney effect" within uninsulated wall cavities.
	Whether or not you decide to keep your walls intact, you're
probably going to need a good drill bit to go through at least 4" of
wood. I use a 3/4" X 18" bit with a 3/8" shaft for this.
	Not to discourage you, but... I can remember a time when I
spent over 10 hours trying to get an outlet in a specific spot in the
old house. I finally gave up on it.
	When you go to your local electrical supply to buy your tools,
don't ask for a snake... Electricians call it a "fishing line". Also,
if you plan on keeping the walls, make sure you get outlet boxes
which have the appropriate features. Standard boxes are made to be
nailed into the framing. You'll need boxes with "ears" if you plan
on installng them in existing walls.

-Bob B

	BTW... If you're doing your own wiring, make sure you
understand the wiring codes. They're very basic, but sensible...
I'm a bit sensitive on this subject... The first thing I did in
my "new/old" house was to disconnect 3/4 of the existing power
in the house, because the previous DIYer was a total hacker in
the worst sense of the word... Remember... A junction box DOES
NOT consist of a few wire nuts and electrical tape!!!
	And... most of all... Do NOT be a "tightwirer". Do not
assume that you've done such a wonderful job that no-one will
ever want to change it! Leave a couple of feet of slack wire in
all your runs, to allow for additional  junction boxes, and movement
of the current ones.
	Cable staples are not meant to be deeply imbedded in the outer
(and sometimes inner) casing of the wire. If possible, leave room to
thread another wire through in the future.
	I could go on and on on this subject... Every time I look at
a new circuit in this house, I ask myself "how could he be so
stupid???", but I'll give it a rest for now...

-Bob B.

When running wires which may be near the surface make sure that they
are protected from someone accidently driving a nail into them. In
48.1 it was suggested that wire could be run through a routed channel
in a baseboard.  In that case I personally would use BX which has
a protective metal sheath.  I seem to recall that the code says that
if the wire is closer than ~2 inches to the surface it needs some sort
of metal protection.  Anyone know for sure?

re: .4
Yes, I think you're right, and for the baseboard trick BX probably would
be a good choice.  The code lets you get away with things in "old"
wiring that it doesn't allow in new wiring, but I'm not sure whether
the 2" clearance/metal plate business applies or not.  It's been a
while.  Perhaps some more recent DIY wirers will know.  In any case,
BX seems like a good idea, no matter what the code says.

Steve

When it comes to buying a fishing wire, make sure you buy the ENCASED fishing
line. I had the misfortune of buying a fishing line without the case. It is
a son-of-a-gun to put away....But then again I don't rewire that often.

							Robert

As an old electrician (worked my way through college in IBEW) I suggest you
get about 20' of small link stoker chain. This is sold in hardware stores
for such things as hanging shop flourscent lights. Use it to drop into the
wall cavity, and snag it out the bottom with a bent coat hanger. Forget fish
tape (only plumbers call them snakes) they are to stiff and get hung up to
easy. They are fine for fishing through conduit but not in walls. Accurate
location of holes above and below the floor you are fishing is essential.

Most essential is Luck! Id rather wire two new houses than fish one circuit
any day.

Oh boy is right. There are several books in libraries and book stores that
are titled something like (Remodeling an old house, Practical Home restoration)
and some of them contain good diagrams on techniques of using different
"fishing" methods. I need to do "another" old house, and I'm "thinking" about
which technique to use. The first house I did was built around 1890, wired
in 1910 or so , and "remuddled" sometime between, putting the entire
cellar,kitchen,stove,laundry on ONE 20 amp fuse, and 1 outlet on another
20 amp fuse, and the rest were varied. That house was a devil, because
pulling off the baseboard sound fine, until I discovered it was installed
before the hardwood floor was laid, which was installed before the
door frames (dovetailed). I got so frustrated I cut the baseboard off
at the floor line, and then the work began. I got around
some of the firestops by pulling off the upstairs baseboard, and routing
the wires around the firestop, and drilling only when I had too.

My current house (Bless the former occupant) used the soil pipe
to go from the attic (beside it, not through it), and also used some
conduit pipe and ran some of the long runs OUTSIDE the house (I only
have a partial cellar).It deosn't look so bad when you consider the
alternatives (Good Grief Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh), and there's also outdoor
lighting for security.

The only thing I really question is why the H*LL they put the attic access
hole directly over the steep main stairwell, when thay could've put it up
through the bedroom adjacent to the stairwell .

Another access route mentioned in some of these books is an old FHA
heating system, or next to the chimney (check fire codes). Also if
it is possible you might get squirrels, BX rests its case as being
more rodent proof than plastic sheathing ! (Friend recently installed
own wiring, and had a small fire next to the squirel carcass !) THe wire
had been chewed through the insulation. Then he put in BX !!

I bought my "drill extension" from Sears Roebuck (about 18" for the kit),
and it worked ok. Not good for *extensive* work, but adequate (about $5.00
comes to mind).

					Good Luck. Don't drill through
					any existing wire, and use protected
					equipment.

							Bob

    I have rewired 2 old houses from the service entrance on up. First
    buy yourself an NEC code book and read it. The next thing to do
    is plan out all of your runs/reruns. A couple of questions..
    How old is the house and what type of wireing bx vs romex. What
    type of walls horse hair plaster, blueboard and plaster, or wallboard?
    If you are going to replace existing reruns of bx then the use the
    bx as the snake.. ie pigtail your new wire to the disconneted bx
    run lub the wire liquid soap does real good and pull. What type
    of insulation is in the exterior walls? Interior walls on most houses
    do not have fire stops between floor. If rewireing the second floor.
    then bring each run up from the service box up to the attic then
    over to the room you are going to do with that run. Place a junction
    box to the interior of the ceiling joist then make your individual
    runs from that..You can find out wall placement from the attic by
    removing insulation in sections. You will see a 2x4 outline of each
    and every wall. From there go down into the room you are going to
    do, measure from a wall corner to where you want the outlet/switch
    go back up into the attic and remeasure adding 1/2" to 3/4" for
    wall thickness(wallboard/plaster). Drill your hole thru the 2x4
    and do your wire run. To prevent heat lost plug around the hole
    after you are done with it.
    
    
    						Bill
    

    If you have moved into a house with two-prong polarized plugs, I'd
    strongly suggest you check the polarity of the plugs with a volt-meter.
    I got suspicious a few weeks ago when I realized that  some of the
    plugs in my house were upside down.  (Plugged in something with
    a right angle bend plug and realized that the wire should not be
    pointing UP the wall.)
    
    After a little thought I got out the voltmeter and found that
    half the plugs were improperly polarized (according to my wiring
    book, the narrow socket is "hot", the wide socket is neutral/ground).
    Hard to do considering that the sockets had clear instructions as
    to which wire went where.  I guess illiterate idiot-proofing was
    not considered.  (Inconsistent, too - a couple of plugs were both
    right side up AND correctly wired.  Most were either upside down,
    incorrectly wired, or both.)
    
    Since some equipment depends on the polarization to ground the case,
    improper polarization can result in a "shocking" experience.

    How do you know which side is hot and which is not (what would I
    do with my voltometer to tell)?
    
    Gary

Unless the electrician was totally incompetent, the black wire should be the 
hot one.  You could tell with a voltmeter without unscrewing the outlet by 
testing each side of the outlet against the outlet for ground.  The hot wire 
will show a voltage relative to ground.

Paul

    re:.23
    
    If you have TWO holed outlets as mentioned in .21, you most likely
    DON'T have a ground wire or a grounded outlet box to test against (my
    house didn't and in the outlets I haven't rewired, still don't).  So a
    meter will basically NOT show polarity.
    
    -Bob 

    Try touching your common lead on the voltmeter to the center tap where
    the screw for the outlet cover goes.   That is usually grounded since
    two-holed outlets still require the outlet box be grounded (probably
    with BX (armored) cable.)   Most likely the box itself is metal, and if
    the center tap to the screw isn't grounded, then the box probably is.
    Note that the proper installation of the three-to-two adaptors require
    the adaptor be screwed to the cover plate - the ground (third)
    connector goes to that little screw lug.
    

    re .25-dont count on the center screw to be grounded- much work
    was not done with BX, just two wire romex.
    
    To tell the hot wire I use a neon test lamp, hold one lead in my
    hand, the other into the suspected hot wire. The lamp will glow
    feebly on the hot side, not at all on the neutral. NOTE: use only
    a NEON test lamp for this, any other tester could pass enough current
    to be dangerous.
    
    Ron

Two-wire Romex nothin' - I've got knob & tube!

If you don't have a neon test lamp, or otherwise don't care to use your 
body as the reference ground, you can always string a wire to a grounded 
outlet, water pipe, or other known ground.  I suppose this procedure might 
be dangerous if you used itty bitty wire, a great big test lamp, and left 
it running for an hour - but you won't do that, will you?

    Now that I'm about done with my wiring for the addition, here is
    some advice:  don't buy your wire from Somerville.  I'm a big
    Somerville fan (except those da*n Wang POS terminals), but the HOMEWIRE
    brand they sell is crap.  All the wire I bought at Spags (and cheaper
    in $) was better.  I'm speaking in terms of the durability of the
    sheathing, its thickness, and its ability to not rip when being
    pulled through joists, etc.
    

    After having several rooms wallpapered recently, the electric
    outlets in the bathrooms no longer work. 
    
    I checked the switch box, removed the plates and checked for 
    loose wires, and removed the light fixture to check for anything
    funny. I couldn't find anything.
    
    Are there any suggestions before I start the impossible task
    of getting an electrician to come out to the house.
    
    Thanks,
    
    John
    

    I had a similar problem a while back - outlets in a couple of
    rooms wouldn't work.  I checked them over and over - nothing
    was awry.  Turned out that another outlet in the same circuit,
    but in another room, had a loose connection.  This loose connection
    caused the rest of its circuit to lose power.  Check the other
    outlets in the same circuit the bathroom ones are in - you might
    have a bum outlet somewhere...
    
    andy
    

    Adding to .1's reply. One of the outlet within the group feeds the
    others. Take a lamp and plug it into each of the outlets within
    the area [sometimes the outlets are fed from a overhead light or
    a switch, ie tapped off that outlet/light/switch]. Most of the problems
    come from the push in type outlet/switches that were prevalent about
    5-10 years ago. After time, the spring action of the connection
    along with crud build up causes the connection to loosen but the
    whole group of outlets are fed from one breaker.
    
    My sister's newer house has the bedrooms wired into the bathroom's
    ground fault outlet. You might check this out. The outlet usually
    is retangular, with a red button marked "reset" and another button
    on it marked "test"
                                                   
    cal

    	One GFI can handle 9 or 10 outlets after it. Common practice
    is to wire all bathroom outlets, outside outlets and garage outlets
    to one GFI. Mines in the garage.      

    This may be sounding too simple, but I didn't read anything about
    checking the breaker/fuse in the main panel. Perhaps some water
    from the wallpapering job shorted out the circuit. If you have
    breakers, you might want to switch the appropriate breaker on and
    off a couple of times. Sometime when a breaker blows it only partially
    moves toward the off position and is hard to detect. The only way
    to reset it is to switch it all the way off and then back on again.
    If this isn't the problem, I'd start tracing down the circuit for
    the first faulty outlet.
    

    My mother recently had a whole circuit go dead.  She tried everything
    (and asked every relative!) and finally called an electrician. 
    He found that one plug got fried by a quartz heater, and the rest
    of the circuit was caused by a new ceiling light fixture which a
    "friend" installed and forgot to connect the ground wire.
    
    Elaine

    I recently bought a timer switch for my outside light which is
    controlled by 2 switches.  In my haste I ripped out the light switch
    I wanted to replace with the timer and did not notice which wire
    was "COMMON".  On the timer I have a Black, Red, and a Blue wire.
    The instructions says to connect the Black wire from the switch
    to the Common wire "Usually black".  Well I have two black wires
    and one Red wire in the switch box.  Can anyone tell me how to identify
    the "Common" wire.
    
    THANKS,
    Dave

First, the question would be easier to answer if you had ripped out the old
switch with less enthusiasm and more attention.  Always proceed systematically 
when you intend to re-use part of the wiring.  I suspect you realize this now; 
maybe someone else will benefit from this admonition. 

Enough recriminations.  I need some more information, or maybe I'm just nosy: 

- What type of wiring do you have (Romex, conduit, knob-and-tube; grounded?), 
  and how old is it?

- Is the timer switch definitely intended for use in cooperation with 
  another switch?  (often called "3-way")

- Does the switch box also contain two white wires, connected to each other
  with a wire nut but not connected to anything else?  (If the answer is 
  "yes", I can answer your question easily).

- The instructions use the word "common" in a way that seems to be 
  non-standard.  If it's not too long, could you type in the whole text of 
  the instructions?  Maybe I can understand it better in context.

    The switch box has 2 white wires tied together.  After I read the
    directions I noticed on the back of the switch the word "Common"
    was next to where I pulled out one of the black wires.

    Look closely at the wires; you should have two cable [for the lack
    of a better term]. One should have one black wire, one white wire
    and [depending on the age of the wiring] a copper ground wire; the
    other cable should have a black, white and  red wires with the copper
    ground. The whites are the NEUTRAL wires and are connected. The
    grounds are connected. The COMMON wire is the black from the cable
    with only the black/white wires; the other cable's red/black are
    the "runners" to the load [light in this case].
    
    
    	      	       /o------------------red----------------o\
    hot[black]--------/                                         \--[B]light
                        o-----------------black---------------o
    neutral[white]------X-----------------white---------------X-----[W]-
                        
                     3-way switch                            3-way switch
    
                        
    /cal

> you should have two cable [for the lack of a better term]. 

"Cable" is exactly the right term, unless the house happens to be wired in
conduit. 

The rest of Cal's description is good, although this use of the term "common" 
makes me cringe; I learned that "hot" is the right term here, and that
"common" is a synonym for "neutral" (with some hairsplitting differences). 

Anyway, this should be enough information for you to finish the job.  Let 
us know how it comes out.

    The reason I needed to know was, I had a power fail the other day.
    When the power came back on the light came on witch was normal since
    I had the switch installed and working for about 3 weeks.  When
    I went to shut off the light the light would not shut off and the
    switch smoked.  I assume I had the black wires crossed.  I installed
    a toggle switch and wanted to make sure it was wired correctly.
    
    Thanks for the info. Even my Time Life book on wiring talk about
    the Common wire and how you should mark it with tape before removing
    an old switch, but the only way they mention how to identify the
    common swith is to look at the back of the switch and see which
    wire is in the commmon terminal.
    
    
    

    I installed a daylight sensor in my porch light fixture. The fixture
    now turns off if we forget to turn it off. I also installed three
    lights out side the garage; one on either side of the garage door
    and one at the side door. The garage lights have a light sensor
    on it to turn it on and off with the daylight.
                                          
    I added a 1 amp 200 PIV diode in series sos the bulb works at 70%
    power [a 100Watt bulb works at ~70Watts power so the bulb will last
    a lifetime].
    
    If you feel so inclined, send me mail.
    
    /cal

    Test your problem solving skills!
    
      I have an electrical problem that I need/want to solve ASAP so
    I'm looking for any ideas you folks may have regarding this.  I'm
    expecting the electrical inspector to show up this week and I REALLY
    want to get this fixed before then, if possible. 
    
    The problem:
    
      The ground wire in on of my circuits has current.  I deduced this
    from the following:
    
       Voltage between Hot and Neutral       122 volts       (No problem)
       Voltage between Hot and Ground        50-60 volts*    (should be 122)
       Voltage between Neutral and Ground    50-60 volts*    (should be 0)
       Voltage between Ground and Water pipe 50-60 volts*    (should be 0)
       Voltage between Neutral and Water pipe 0 volts (continuity...no problem)
         * I say 50-60 volts because I can't remember if one had 50
           and the other had 60 or they both had 50.
 
        My thoughts on this (ok, so I'm guessing) is that the ground is
    broken and is inducing current from the Hot.  Is this too far fetched?
    This is the problem with all outlets on the circuit except for the
    first one I believe.  I will attempt to see if something is breaking
    the connection between the first outlet and the next (wherever
    that is). 

    -Jim
    

    Yep, I've got a dollar here that says its a broken ground someplace.
    The ground wire in the new part of the circuit is not really connected
    to anything but will still show a current flow between it and the black
    or white wires. I'm not sure if the current flow from the broken ground
    into the air around it or induced back into the black or white wire
    that is next to it. 

    Finding and fixing the broken ground should resolve the problem. 

    Charly

    I agree with the break in the ground line.  Several months ago we
    experienced the same problem with strange readings on the meter.
     At one point the lights would dim and brighten as more of the
    appliences and well pump would kick in.
    
    Trace the ground line/wires once more and chances are you will find
    a break.

It's likely the ground is bad - but let's get some terminology right:

CURRENT = a flow of energy; measured in AMPS

VOLTAGE = a POTENTIAL; measured in VOLTS.

You certainly have AT LEAST an almost 'floating' (not connected to ground)
ground if you can see a Voltage on a ground wire - you might just have
a poor connection to ground. That's what the VOLTAGE you see would tell
you.

Is there a LOAD on the circuit you are testing? If so, is there CURRENT
in the ground leg? If so, then you ALSO have the load neutral hooked to
ground.

Dennis

    Re: All
    
      Thanks for the quick inputs.  I believe I found the problem. I
    managed to trace the problem between the good and bad connections
    and found that some incompetant spliced wires and did NOT use a
    junction box.  I only saw the Hot and Neutral wires spliced. 
    If the ground wires were spliced, a wire nut was NOT used.  I decided
    not to tangle with the mess yet because I need to buy some junction
    boxes to fix this.  Also, the whole mess was wrapped up with electrical
    tape.  I will also need to replace a 2'-3' section where this person
    pulled the wire from the staple to give him room (the staple didn't
    pull out, it broke thereby fraying the wire).  Needless to say,
    I did not get a warm and fuzzy feeling when I saw this.  I will
    have to go back and see what else may be wrong.  There is new(er)
    wire running to this splice so I will have to find where it ends
    to see if he did this again.  This really is a pain because this
    is all in the attic so I have to remove the 9" fiberglass batts
    that I installed (just so I know where to step/crawl as well as rip 
    up the insulation that was there originally.  My next electrical
    project will be to fix what the ELECTRICIAN did who changed the
    service panel approx. 10 years ago...he wired the WHITE as HOT.  
    Finding these problems all started by changing my outlets to grounded 
    outlets. 

    -Jim
    
    Re: .3
       I was saying current but I did mean voltage.

    Re: .3
    
      I didn't understand at first what you meant by having a load
    to induce voltage but someone here explained it to me.  I made sure
    everything was unplugged/turned off on that circuit and checked
    it again.  Result: Still the same voltages.  The electrical inspector
    was there yesterday and I explained what I found. He said
    that he expects me to find another problem (like a short) when I fix 
    what I found so far.  I was afraid he'd say that but others here
    agree.  I also noticed something else last night when I was checking
    the light fixtures.  When the switch is turned off, I read 30 volts
    at the socket. Arrgghhh :^(  Anyway, I now have a permit to fix/replace
    this wiring and now know what I'll be doing this weekend. BTW, I
    also found two more of those splices in the wiring.
    
    -Jim

re:.-1

The underlying reason why one would suspect that a short exists is: for
there to be an INDUCED voltage (a voltage that is present without an electrical
connection to a source) is for there to be a flow of current (AMPERAGE).

Now, you could have a cable run containing the suspicious ground line running
close enough to another power line which has a load/current to create the
induction.

The way an electrician would figure out what's cooking would be to use a
device called a "megger" on the suspicious circuit with power removed. A
"megger" is an Ohmmeter designed to measure VERY LARGE resistances (the
resistance of the insulation in the wiring).

Dennis

    May I tack on another wiring question here?
    
    Right now I have two switches in my bathroom:  one for an overhead
    light, and another for an exhaust fan.  The problem is that the two
    are wired together such that turning off the light switch also turns
    off the fan. 

I'd like to re-wire them so that the fan can be operated even when the light
switch is off.  Pretty basic wiring, I guess, but I'm green, so I need help.


o  How do I re-connect the wires so the fan switch functions independently
   of the light switch?

o  Luxury option:  How would the wiring be different if I put the fan and light
switches together on a new fixture (in the same box)?  Could I use the old
box to add a new outlet?  How would I wire the thing? 


Here's the current (sic) set up:


FAN SWITCH:
(uses nice new romex I think)

       /black
 _____/
|     |-------\white (nutted)
|  0  |-------/
|_____|\
| |     \black					
| |
\ /
copper (nutted)
					LIGHT SWITCH:
                                        (crusty old cloth-wrapped wires)


     		          		       /black
 					 _____/
					|     |-------\white (nutted)
					|  0  |-------/
					|_____|\
					        \black	

    Here is what I think the problem is:
    
    The switch for the light has the power coming into it and the switch
    leg going out (the cable that runs between the switch and the light).
    When the fan was put in, by whom ever, they came from your bathroom
    light (is this a one piece unit?) and went to the box containing
    the fan switch.  Since your your light only has power when the switch
    is on, that is why the fan goes off.
    
    Diagram:
    
    FAN SWITCH
      -- Black ---------------------------------- FAN - 
      |                                                |
         /----- White ----------------------------------
         \----- White -------------
      |                           |
      \-------- Black -----\      |
                           |      \/-----\

                           |    LIGHT    |
                           |             |
                           \-----/\      |
     LIGHT SWITCH                 |      |
       /------- Black ------------/      |
       |                                 |
          /---- White -------------------/
          \---- White -----------------------------\
       |                                            POWER
       \------- Black -----------------------------/
    
    
    The fix depends on how easy it is to get to the wires that run into
    the light switch.
    
    Where are the switchs located?  Outside the bathroom? inside? Is
    this on the second floor?  What is above the bathroom?  It the
    FAN/LIGHT one unit?  
    
    things to think about........
    mac
    

RE. < Note 1564.8 by CADDLE::MCCARTHY "CADSE software engineering" >
   

Your diagram looks right.  To answer your questions:

The switches are located on the inside bathroom wall.  The fan switch is
directly above the light switch.  Above the bathroom is the attic.  The
light fixture is on the wall adjacent to the switches.  The fan is separate
on the wall parallel to the switches.


Does that help you suggest how to re-wire the set-up?


-Brian

The fact that the attic is above may well save the day, or at least save 
the wall.

You basically want to rip out all of the existing wiring and replace it
with something more intelligent.  However, even with the convenient access
through the attic above, you may have some challenging "fishing" ahead of
you.  So as you pull out each old cable, use it to pull one or more new 
cables into its place.

Here's the new wiring diagram:
                                         /
                         +--------------/ ----------------- hot, switched
                         |           fan-switch           fan
                         |   +----------------------------- common
                         |   |
                         |   |
                         |   |           /
       hot --------------+--(-----------/ ----------------- hot, switched
supply                       |     light-switch           light
    common ------------------+----------------------------- common

One gotcha is that neither switch box might be big enough to hold both the
switch and the two Y-connections comfortably.  The National Electrical Code
has specific provisions for how big a box needs to be to accomodate such
things as switches and junctions.  If you'll measure the dimensions of your
switch boxes and post the results here, perhaps some kind NOTEr will
determine whether you'll have a problem - the algorithm isn't difficult,
but it's confusing if you're not familiar with it. 

Please don't make the Y-connections by connecting multiple wires to the 
same screw on a switch.  Doing so is unsafe and not to Code.

I'm concerned about the lack of a ground in the supply, as your original 
note seems to indicate, especially in a bathroom.  Theoretically, you 
should replace the supply with a properly grounded supply.  If you do 
indeed install an outlet as well, you'll have to get a grounded supply from 
someplace, since bathroom outlets now require GFI.

Plan, plan, plan before you start work, and if there's an aspect you don't 
understand thoroughly, plan some more.  Some key aspects of the planning 
for this project will include how long you can afford to leave the bathroom 
without light and fan, and where you will get light to do the job by.

Please ask more questions here; no question is too dumb.

I had a similar problem to this when trying to "undo" some jerks wiring
attempts.  I had the same funnie voltage measurements; you know, like 50V 
on the neutral wire to ground.  It had me running in circles, and keeping 
me awake nights worrying about it.  The problem was indeed a short from 
HOT to the GROUND wire half way up the cable. Real hard to find, but it 
was there!  It really scared the he%& out of me, 'cause it could have 
burned the house down.  My cable was the old BX junk with a metal jacket.  
The jacket is the ground (now illegal), I guess there was enough 
resistance to keep the breaker from blowing.  Pretty scary; I rewired the 
whole circuit.

...bill

RE. < Note 1564.10 by VIDEO::DCL "David Larrick" >


>If you'll measure the dimensions of your
>switch boxes and post the results here, perhaps some kind NOTEr will
>determine whether you'll have a problem

Both the light switch box and fan switch box above it are 2"x3". As I figure
it, I'm going to have one cable coming into the box from the bottom with my
power feed.  I'll have two y junctions off it (to fan switch and light switch)
and it will continue on to the outlet I want to add on the adjacent wall. 

How big will the box need to be to accomodate all that?

>Please don't make the Y-connections by connecting multiple wires to the 
>same screw on a switch.  Doing so is unsafe and not to Code.

Okay if I use wire nuts?  Or should I have a special junction box?

>If you do indeed install an outlet as well, you'll have to get a grounded
>supply from someplace, since bathroom outlets now require GFI. 

Does this mean tracing the power feed back to the circuit box and replacing
it with 3-way cable?  (There's no other way to install a GFCI using existing
2-way wire?)

- Also, how do I achieve the "pass through" advantage of the GFCI so that my
exhaust fan is also protected? 

- What's the best way to splice wire in the attic?  (The existing set-up
uses wires taped together under the insultation!!)

- What's the best way to get wire from the light switch box to the fan switch
box on the wall above it?


Thanks a lot for your help!!!

brian

    My turn again
    
    
    Don't know the actual limit of wires (I should but I don't). (Dave
    you can answer that!)
    
    
    How old is the house?  Is the "old" wire metal sheathed??  If so, this
    is your ground.   
    
    When you say the existing set-up uses wires taped together under
    the insulation, do you mean that the wire put in for the fan was
    done this way??
    
    A GFI outlet has four connections, (some are wire leads others are
    screw terminals depending on the brand)  one pair is the LINE side
    the other is the LOAD side, to get the "pass through" advantage,
    all you have to do is to feed the fan switch off of the LOAD side
    of the GFI.  This is done alot to have two bathrooms on the same
    GFI without needing more GFI's (those suckers are not cheap!).
    
    The ONLY way to splice wires is within an approved electrical
    "container".  For new construction junction boxes are not usually
    not needed.  For "old" work, (adding wiring to an existing house)
    if splices are needed we (my ex-boss and my self) usually used a
    4" square metal box with a blank cover and screwed it to a convenient
    location (accessable).
    
    
    mac
    This is usually done within a 
    The wires you are describing
    make me think that you have KNOB-IN-TUBE wiring which does not carry
    a ground.   The HOT and NEUTRAL are run throughout the house and
    when a

      Yesterday, I replaced all the wiring containing those splices
    and the problem was solved. What I found is that the wire that was 
    spliced in did NOT have a ground wire.  Since I went this far, I
    decided to find the first receptacle on the circuit and put the
    GFCI there.  Now the whole circuit is GFCI protected.  On a side
    note, after I found the first outlet I decided to check continuity
    on the rest of the circuit to verify that everything was A-OK. What
    I found was 26k-ohms resistance in the line.  To make a long story 
    short, the resistance was coming from the GFCI that was in the
    bathroom. The resistance is there whether or not the GFCI has been
    tripped.  That GFCI is no longer there since I moved it to the
    beginning of the circuit.  
    
    -Jim

    For the past few years, I've noticed dimming in my lights.  I verified
    all connections at the fuse box and checked voltages, ground, etc.
    Everything looked fine.  Now, a new refrigerator has made the dimming
    more evident.  With no other noticeable loads (I'm in bed at night
    reading), the frig kicks in and the bedroom light dims.  Their on
    different circuits.  With 100A service, I don't expect the the
    refrigerator (or even the TV, at times) to make that kind of impact
    on the service.
    
    Should I revisit the problem?  House built in 1962, wiring looks
    decent, I checked all plugs for "push in" connections.
    
    Chris

                First - a question - Is your refrigerator on a separate
        circuit from your bedroom??
                
                I will presume that it is, since it would be abnormal for
        the two to share a circuit. You then have isolated the problem
        back to the connections in one of four places.
                
                1. In the fuse/breaker box - tighten everything,
        especially the ones common to the two circuits (don't forget the
        ones from the meter - CAUTION they are ALWAYS HOT!).
                
                2. In the Meter box (there are connections here that
        need to be tightened periodicaly) CAUTION - ALWAYS HOT again!
        (Theoretically you need to call the power company here as
        removing/installing the meter from/to the box is their
        responsibility.)
                
                3. The connections that tie your meter lead in to the
        edison drop (call your power company here).
                
                4. A bad connection where your drop connects to the
        distribution wires on the street or the distribution wires to
        the transformer. Again, call your power company.
                
                
                That about does it. 
                
                /s/     Bob

                Some hints for localizing a problem of this sort.
                
                If the turn on of an appliance causes light(s) to dim,
        then you need to determine something.
                
                Is the light(s) on the same circuit? (test - pull the
        fuse or open the breaker for the appliance, did the light go
        out? Yes - it is on the same circuit. No - it is on a different
        circuit.)
                
                If it was on the same circuit - check the connections on
        that circuit for "high" resistance spots (push in wiring on
        outlets, loose screws with wires under them on outlets or
        switches, improperly done splices, etc.) and fix them as
        appropriate. If after doing this the light(s) still dim
        significantly, then either you missed a connection, or the
        circuit is too small for the load.
                
                If it wasn't on the same circuit, then the problem is
        more localized as only the parts in common to BOTH circuits can
        cause one circuit to effect another. That usually limits you to
        the situation(s) that I described in the previous note. 
                
                Even if all the connections are properly made and the
        circuits are properly sized, a big enough starting load can
        cause some light dimming. The smaller the service to the house,
        the more likely you are to see it. It should never be such that
        most people will notice it, but some people do tend to notice
        such things more readily than others (I know I do).
                
                
                One other variation. If the turn on of an appliance
        causes a light(s) to get BRIGHTER, then you have a neutral
        problem in the common portions of the two circuits. (I won't go
        into the theory, but the voltage drop can become a voltage rise
        on the other side of a 220 line resulting in the rise of the 110
        line from that side of the 220.
                
                /s/     Bob

    
    
    Is the light that dims on a dimmer ??  These things are extremely
    sensitive to line voltage variations.

>    For the past few years, I've noticed dimming in my lights.  I verified
>    all connections at the fuse box and checked voltages, ground, etc.
>    Everything looked fine.  Now, a new refrigerator has made the dimming
>    more evident.  With no other noticeable loads (I'm in bed at night
>    reading), the frig kicks in and the bedroom light dims.  Their on
>    different circuits.  With 100A service, I don't expect the the
>    refrigerator (or even the TV, at times) to make that kind of impact
>    on the service.

    One possibility not mentioned is a 'fusistor.'  Old cartridge fuses 
that have developed some resistance.  Try changing them.  (Assuming you 
have catridge fuses.)

I had a similar problem.  Any appliance coming on would cause lights to dim. It
got progressivly (sp?) worse.  Finally we called the electric company.  They
found that the crimped connections at the pole were corroded.  They replaced
them, and the dimming problem went away.  This has happened twice over the past
10 years. Probably 'cause the house is close to the ocean.

good luck,
...bill

I have the same problem as .11 (frig cutting in dims house lights,
house built in 1962) I am less likely to suspect my box because I just 
had a modern box and 100A service put in.  Frig is on its own circuit 
- in fact it on the different 'leg' than most of the lights, etc.
i like the idea of checking with the elec. company...any other ideas?

    Phew!  Where do I start?
    
    I've replaced the fuses and the cartridges.  The wire running from
    the top of the house to the fuse box has been replaced.  The frig
    circuit is shared by one other unused plug.  I've tightened all
    the connections in the fuse box (I did find a few slightly loose
    grounds, no change though).
    
    I'm on Hudson Power.  I think I'll call and see if I can get a free
    'consult' on this.  Maybe it's at the pole or in the wire coming
    from the pole to the house.  I'm also going to try to 'catch' the
    voltage drop (if that's the problem!) when the frig kicks in.
    
    thanks for the help, stay tuned...
    
    Chris
    

    Need some electrical advice.....I have a spotlight outside the house
    which has a switch in the garage....now thats OK if there were more
    than one switch but there isnt......so my question is this:  can
    I run some wire from the switch in the garage to a switch in the
    house and if so, will they both work?  Or, what if I went to the
    attic, spliced the wire and tried to put it on a switch in an
    upstairs bedroom?  Again, would both work?
    
    Thanks
    
    Rick

	If you can easily get to the light's wiring from the house, you
	might be better off bypassing the switch in the garage entirely
	and putting a switch by the back door or whatever. This would
	alleviate the need to run another cable to the garage for a 3-way
	switch.

Larry

For the amount of effort involved and the what you get for it have you
considered the remote control X10 system from BSR?  All you would have
to do is spend about $25 and get one remote switch module and one
control console.  Now you can turn this sucker on from the house and
if you want you can add more switches and control consoles to control
as much as you want (up to 16 per console) and where you want.

I had a similar problem in that I needed to control outside floods from
the upstairs bedrooms.  Now with the X10 system I can turn the front and
side floods on from the bed - or I can turn them on with local switches -
or I can turn them on from the console in the kitchen ... etc. 

Once you get to use this system the convenience is hard to live without.
Also, you can get a timer/console which can turn stuff on a predetermined
times.

-peter

    Re: .3
    Sounds good; more details, please, like where are these things sold.
    Is this a wireless system, or a low voltage relay system?  

>    Re: .3
>    Sounds good; more details, please, like where are these things sold.
>    Is this a wireless system, or a low voltage relay system?  


	see note 137

    I had the same problem. I added a photo cell on the light and left
    the light on. I also wired a diode in series with the light so the
    bulb burns at 70% wattage. A 100 watt bulb burns like a 60 watter.
    Now, I leave the switch on and the lights stays on all night; turns
    off when it's daylight.
    
    The photo cell costs about $10-15. If you want to get real fancy,
    there's a infrared switch by RCA that you can add for about $50.
    It turns on when it detects motion and it can turn off 15 minutes
    later after the motion ceases. Check out the Sears catalog for a
    description.
    
    Good luck. If you need to talk to me, I can be reached at DTN 522-2525.
    
    /cal

    Power feeds go from the breaker panel (or fuses) to the first box,
    then the second, third and so on. Unless the outlet you are using
    is the only one on that breaker, there will probably be many
    connections between it and the breaker panel. You'll need to identify
    all the connections in that circuit (kill the breaker and see what
    outlets are dead, perhaps even some ceiling lights too). Then check
    each connection to see where a high resistance or loose connection
    exists. Its a pain but may be the only way to find your problem.
    A loose connection is not only a nuisance, it can be a fire hazard
    (and from your description, your wiring sounds fairly old)!!
    
    Eric
    

    Check for outlets along the circuit that are connected by the
    push-in connectors on the back of the outlet; if you find any,
    take the wires out and use the screw terminals on the outlet
    instead. The push-in connectors tend to get real flakey after 
    a few years.
    

    Re:  .1, .2
    
    As far as I can tell, there are no outlets or junctions between
    the circuit  box and the outlet.  Unless one is sealed inside the
    basement ceiling, which if it isn't illegal ought to be....
    
    dq

Re: .3, if its a direct circuit (it would seem strange, but possible),
    then you still have a neutral connection in the box on the neutral
    bus bar. Wiring may not follow a logical path, so it may take some
    hunting. The kill-the-breaker-and-ck-outlets would still be a good
    idea to map the connections. How many wires does the outlet in the
    kitchen have in the box? Its a lot of work, but possibly your only
    option.
    
    PS-If you ck the neutral bus in the breaker panel, BE CAREFUL. The
    center bus bar connections between the breakers are exposed and
    HOT. Unless you are an expert, kill the main breaker before going
    into the panel!!!!
    
    Eric

re .4:
    
 �  if its a direct circuit (it would seem strange, but possible),
    
    Why?  It's a kitchen circuit, and for a high-draw appliance.  Both
    of these lead me to believe that it's a dedicated circuit installed
    according to NEC suggestions.
    
    BTW, even with the main breaker turned off, there's still live power
    in the box.  Know what you're doing, regardless of whether you're
    an "expert" (whatever that is) or not, or you could end up being dead
    wrong.
    
    Jim

    
      Sounds like the wire Going to the outlet from the box is bad.
    I've run into it before. Just liave the old wire in the wall and
    run a new one whatever way is easiest but still within code. 
      If you try this just cut the old wire off at each end where it
    goes into the walls (or Floors).
    
                                           John C.
    

    The wiring you described is 1930's-40's vintage.  Other than wiring
    done in the past 15 or so years, you can't beat it.  The NEC didn't
    have the codes mentioned a couple replys ago back in those days.
    
    Junction boxes are a no-no but that never seems to stop folks from
    doing it during remodeling.  I'd expect the kitchen has been 
    remodeled sometime (if not multiple times) in the past since the
    original wiring was done.  The code does say that junction boxes
    must be in the open and not hidden.  Look in areas that would've
    been disturbed during remodeling over the years.  You may find a
    nice little rats nest the carpenter (or whoever) made of the wires.
    Since you do have a good ground this may not be the case, it would
    be obvious if you didn't.  The ground comes from the BX case, at
    least the wires aren't spliced somewhere in the walls...
    
    Replacing the wiring is your best bet.  These days you should have
    at least two 20A circuits on your kitchen counters.
    
    Good luck

    RE:7   Old BX wiring is very dangerous. The rubber/ cloth insulation
    rots and breaks down causing a short to the metal casing. This casing,
    unlike new BX wire which has a bonding conductor, has resistance. The
    casing will heat up like a heating element.
    This wiring is a cause of many home fires. I'd rather have knob
    and tube in my home!

    RE: .5, granted, hard wire appliances are usually on their own circuit,
    as would be very high draw circuits (i.e. electric stove), but
    generally, the regular wall outlets have more than one drop, especially
    considering the age of the wiring mentioned. A kill-the-breaker
    and ck outlets and lights is still the best way to trace that circuit.
    Also, short of pulling the meter, killing the main breaker is the
    best way to work within the panel. With it off, the only place where
    voltage should still be present is the input to the main (this assumes
    that its a breaker panel, and not fuses). But you are correct in
    being cautious in working around a panel. If you don't know what
    you are doing, its far better to stay out and call an electrician!
                                                            
    Eric

    
    	Just a quick aside; When doing some rewire work on my fathers
    old farm house it had one neat addition to jumble of wiring I found
    to be very handy. The house had 3 additions onto it in it's lifetime
    and a real mess as far as wiring goes, when the last addition was
    added they had to move the service entrance and rather then moving
    the breaker pannel the just ran the incoming line from the meter
    to a sub pannel with only a main breaker in it then from there to
    the breaker box. That way you just kill the first breaker and the
    breaker box was dead. This came in handy when I opened the breaker
    box and found a mouse that had fried himself behind the main breaker
    in the box.
    
    
    		...Dave
    

    RE: .-1
    
    I believe there is a code ruling on having the main panel a certain
    distance away from the meter socket.  For some reason 6 feet pops
    into my head.  Anything over that and there has to be a disconnect
    placed between the two (within 6' of the meter)

    RE .0
    As others have suggested, the symptoms do point to a bad connection
    between the panel and the outlet. If you're absolutely sure that
    no other light or outlet anywhere in the house is dead when that
    circuit is shut off, there is two possibilities. One is the afore-
    mentioned hidden box (which is against the code) and another is
    the use of an outlet or light fixture box to pass thru the wire
    destined for your microwave. (You probably don't have light fixture
    boxes though.) I vote for disconnecting the offending circuit at
    the panel and running a new 12 guage wire. Happy fishing !

Advice, please, on a different kind of electrical switch:  one that controls 
switched outlets.

As part of constructing a new master bedroom, I installed about a million
duplex outlets, each of which follows a simple rule:  the upper outlet is
controlled by a switch at the door, and the lower outlet is always hot
(unswitched).  This arrangement gives us tremendous flexibility in arranging 
the room:  anyplace we want to put a lamp that we want to be switched, there's 
a switched outlet nearby; similarly for things that we want to be unswitched. 

Since the principal users of the master bedroom outlets - my wife and myself - 
devised the above simple rule, we've had no difficulty remembering it, and we 
haven't found this nonstandard installation to be confusing.  The electrical 
inspector was confused at first - the switch happened to be off when he 
started testing - but he didn't have any official objection to the technique. 

The time has come to design the wiring for the bedroom we're gutting and
reconstructing for my teenage daughter.  Like us, she's interested in having 
the flexibility to move furniture around without rewiring the place or
running extension cords everywhere.  But she objects to our "top = switched, 
bottom = unswitched" scheme - her argument is that she has many more 
unswitched devices than switched ones, and will have multiple unswitched 
devices at any one location.  Quad or hex outlets are out, because they 
would make the room look more like a chemistry lab than a bedroom - except, 
perhaps, at one or two designated locations, which flies in the face of 
flexible furniture placement.

Her counter-proposal is to have the top outlet of _every_other_ duplex
outlet be switched, so one-out-of-four is switched, and the other three are
hot.  Although people can get used to anything, this scheme strikes me as
terribly confusing.  I'm quite aware that this argument could easily be 
applied to my own approach!

I'm at least as interested in the "human factors in design" considerations
of this situation as in the electrical ones.  I'd appreciate your comments 
on switched outlets you've used and/or designed; what schemes have worked 
well; what ones have turned out to be confusing or inconvenient.

    Dave,
    
    	Actually, having more than one outlet switched sounds confusing
    to me, for this reason:
    	Suppose you have 8 duplex outlets in a room (2/wall) now with
    your scheme you have 8 outlets that are on the same switch. What
    are the odds that you want everything that is plugged into these
    outlets on or off at the same time? It seems that you would rather
    quickly start using the local switch and leaving the outlets "hot"
    all the time. The alternative would seem to be that you have
    so many outlets that you don't need to put more than 1 or 2 whatevers
    on the swiched circuit which leads to your chem. lab scenario.
    Another alternative would be two switches, one switch controlling
    the top of every other duplex outlet, and the other switch controlling
    the top of the remaining duplexs.

    	Of the two alternatives you offer I find your daughter's more
    realistic. You could easily put a label on the outlets that are
    switched.

    Alan

>                         -< Human factors of switched outlets >-
    
    Once you run a switch wire and a hot wire to all of your outlets you
    can randomly make any of them always hot or switched by jumping
    wires.  That's what I did (I got the idea from this file).

    All rooms I wire in the future will be like that.  It sounds like
    you wired it like that, but you need to bypass the switch on the
    upper oulets that you don't want to have switched at any given time.
    
    Usually only 1 or 2 of the outlets in the room will be on the switch
    at any time (probably).
    

re .9:  I love it.  Re-wiring the outlets to select switched or unswitched
operation is easy and quick (if you know what you're doing, of course), and
considerably less traumatic than tearing holes in walls to run cable.  It's
not something you'd want to do every day, but you wouldn't want to move
your furniture around every day either!  (Unless you're my daughter :-) 

re .8:  Do there exist attractive, discreet stickers to indicate which
outlets are switched?  I'm thinking of something like the stickers you get
with GFCI outlets.  Sorry, labelmaker stickers (except in the basement) are
not suitable. 

By the way, while construction work is in progress I find having _lots_ of 
switched outlets to be very handy.  With one switch, I can kill worklights, 
power tools, radio, fans, etc. when I quit for the night.

    I would suggest a simple red dot label to indicate switched outlets.
    There isn't a real need to have the word "switched".
    
    ...  now if only I can figure out the three switches just inside
    the doorway to the master bedroom in my new house, NONE of which
    seem to do anything....
    
    				Steve

   >> ...  now if only I can figure out the three switches just inside
   >> the doorway to the master bedroom in my new house, NONE of which
   >> seem to do anything....
    
    So it's you doing that!!!  Cut it out!   :^)
    
    -Jim
    
     

    Personally, I prefer the hi-tech solution, namely X-10 controllers.
    They're expensive, they've had quality control problems in the past,
    and they're not for everyone.  They have much more flexibility and
    power, especially with the computer interface and the radio remote.
    
    For example, I find that having the wall switch control my bedroom
    lamp doesn't do much good.  I turn off the lamp by the bed at night,
    so the next time I walk into the room, the wall switch doesn't do
    anything.  Eventually, I'll get arount to installing an X-10 wall
    switch, and then I'll be able to use the remote control at the bed
    to turn the lamp on and off, and still use the wall switch for the
    same purpose.  This depends on my not being foolish enough to plug
    anything but a lamp into the switched outlet, but I can live with
    that.
    
    I still appreciate the other advice in this note, and I'll give
    careful consideration to it when doing new wiring.
    
       Gary

    Glad I saw these notes.  I thought that the electrician who wired
    our addition was crazy, stupid, or incompetent.  Never occurred
    to me that there was a method to his madness.
    
    One thing I would suggest is that you document what you did for
    the benefit of future generations, and also explain what any code,
    such as Steve's `red dot' idea means.  Particularly if you have
    the plugs wired in such a way they can be randomized, the next guy
    can either take advantage of what you did, or at least will understand.
    Otherwise, there will be a reply in the "Why did they EVER do that"
    note about the crazy randomized outlets.
    
    Clay

	When I was a young EE to be, I labeled all the outlets in my parents 
	with circuit number, adjacent outlets on same circuit and if they were
	switched/unswitched.  I used label tape on the BACK of the covers.  I 
	also went to the trouble of mapping the location of all the wires.  

	A good way to visibally mark outlets in a kids room is with the stickers
	that are sold in card shops(e.g. teddy bears).  They cost about $1 for 
	twenty stickers and your daughter can pick ones for her personality.  I 
	had glow in the dark monsters.  If her bedroom has a small wallpaper
	pattern you could make your own stickers with pieces of wallpaper.  

	If you do install any atypical convenience wiring please provide 
	the buyers of your house with an as built drawing.

	Brian

	I have a three prong receptacle that was working just fine for a while.
I used to have my surge protector (6 outlets) conncected to it.  Then all of a
sudden the receptacle (both receptacles) stopped working. No circuit breaker
ever blew, and I noticed nothing else unusual. I tested it with a voltabe
tester and sure enough the outlet is dead.  Since its the only three prong
outlet in the room, I am now running a fat outdoor 3 prong extension cord to
another room across the hall.  Before I call an electrician does anyone have
any ideas? Should I just remove the wall plate and replace the receptacle?
I can't imagine why it would just fail out of the blue like that.
But there seems a curious coincedence that it failed right after
using it for about two weeks with the my computer connected to it through
the surge protectector.   Incidentally my computer used to be connected
to it directly with no problems -- then the current drwan per outlet had to be
less as I had one device on each outlet, not two (computer and monitor)
on a single outlet.

Thanks for the help
Avi

	Hmmm.  Could be that the wires were attached to the recepticle
	by pushing them into the little hole in the back of it instead 
	of using the hold down screws.  Those little push in connectors
	are notorious for letting go of the wire over time.

	I'd shut off the breaker and then pull the recepticle and check
	for that.  If they are pushed into the back, try reattaching them
	via the side screws.  If that doesn't work isolate the wire from
	each other (and anything else) and turn the breaker back on and
	use a voltmeter to see if you have any juice there.  If not, you
	have a bigger problem that may be best left to an electrician,
	Although you could do a shorts/open test on the circuit from the
	breaker panel to the outlet if you know what you are doing.

	Good luck,

	-gary

Perhaps its wired using the push-in connectors, and a wire came loose
(or there's an outlet with a push-in connector somewhere upstream, 
and IT came loose.

I would shut the fuse off, open the box, and see if all looks in 
order.  If you know what you're doing, you could also test the wires 
in the box with a voltmeter (with the breaker on of course)

	Thanks for the advice. I'll try it.  But first a question:

	I'll remove the faceplate and examine it to see if its
connected with the push wires or not, and if so I'll check to see
if they came loose and/or rewire to the screws.  But how can I figure
out which switch to throw on my breaker panel?  I've changed receptacles
and switches in the past, and I always threw the breaker switch before
doing ANYTHING.  I used a lamp to figure out which switch to throw.
Are the three other outlets in the room pretty much guranteed
to be on the on the same circuit?  I'm a little nervous about testing 
it (possibly) live unless I absolutely have to (although I have done
this in the past too).
 

Yeah Yeah I know... I should have "mapped" all the outlets/switches
to breaker switches long ago... :-)

Avi

DONT assume anything... 

When in doubt just throw the main breaker or all the circuit breakers.
try replacing the outlet since they are only $.50.
also if you have a tester, put one end in the hot slot and one in the ground
hole to see if that works.  that would indicate a break in the nuetral
wire somewhere.  The probem could be the neutral wire came loose from the
neutral bus bar in the circuit box.

gary

A radical but safe method is to throw the main breaker.

However, with a little extra care, you can probably take the face plate
off and check the wires with your volt meter.  (Be sure to check the 
voltage on a known good recepticle to make sure your meter works!)
If you have no reading on the meter, by checking the wires directly (ie.
not just checking the recepticle, but the actual bare wire), then I would
say you have a pretty dead line.  Now you have to check the recepticles
that are "upstream"...which may take some doing without a map.

Before going through all this, however, I would turn each breaker off and
back on, one by one, just to see if the circuit may have tripped without
you noticing it.  Its a good idea to toggle breakers on a regular basis
anyway, but very few people do it.  (I don't, but I work on the electrical
enough that it usually gets done by hapenstance!)  8^)

Good luck.

	re .4, .5

	Well short of replacing the receptacle I did what was 
suggested. I made sure my voltage tester works.  Then I shut
off the main cicrcuit breaker removed the faceplate and unscrewed
the recpetacle.  The connection was to the screw terminals
not the punch tabs and it was not obviously loose.  I turned
power back on and carefully placed the voltage meter on
the screw terminals and then then bare wires themselves
(they protruded, but I didn't unscrew them from the receptacle
beforehand -- should I have?).  In both tests I got nothing.  So it looks like
its probably in the run somewhere, but I'll  buy another recptacle
and test it to be sure.

PS  Although this a is 3 prong outlet it has no bare grounding 
wire going to the green terminal screw nor a jumper wire.
According to my "Ortho Basic Wiring Techniques" there should be
somehting wired to the green grounding screw.  Also from the picture
in the book it looks like this is an end of the run receptacle
(one hot and one neutral wire coming in) if that's any help.

Avi

	Based on what you found in .6, maybe it is in the same circuit
	that another recepticle is ahead of and the wire feeding to it
	was via the push tabs in that one ...if you follow what I'm
	saying.  If the wires in the recepticle  before it went to the screw
	terminal and then the feed onto the next recepticle (the one you
	are having trouble with) were fed via the push tabs, maybe one of
	those came loose.  In other words, a loose wire from the push tab
	in another box could possibly be causing the problem.

	Ain't electrical problems fun???

	-gary

	Boy is my face red!  I have a switch on the outlet
which I never use because its connected to the computer and not
a light.  The switch is one of those ancient round push button
things so you can't tell from looking at it if its on or off.
Well I must have brushed against it or something... come to think
of it I was giving a tour of the house to my sister and I think
she may have hit the switch then... (someone to blame it on though
it's no excuse :-) )

PS  I didn't have this brilliant inspiration until after I tried every single
outlet in the house with the voltage meter as per .-1 (they all checked out).
This is kinda like debugging software ... it's always the stupid stuff that
gets ya 

Avi

    If you get no current across the hot (black) there is a break in
    the power somewhere down stream.  If you get a hot and the plug
    doesn't work, the white is broken.  To check if the white makes
    it back to ground (or at least that both the ground and white are
    running back to the ground bar)  check the resistance between the
    ground and the white wire.  If infinite you've likely got a break
    in the white.
    
    If nothing is working (neither white nor black) you might have a
    blown breaker.  Toss them all shut and reset them.  Also check
    bathrooms for GFI switches one may need to be reset (this may be
    behind a GFI)
    
    Otherwise you have to isolate the circuit.  If you're game a door
    bell and a battery are lots of fun.  They also sell circuit testers.
    
    Good Luck
    
    

	Re .9

	Evidently you were entering .9 while I was entering .8 and i
 	just barely beat you.  Anyhow, thank god it was just a dumb
   	mistake and I don't have to do all that

    At least it was an easy fix!  This was a useful note anyway, because
    it gave us a chance to repeat the cautions against using the
    push-in connections.  I had exactly the same symptoms you
    described, and the problem was the push-in connections in
    the receptacle in the box "upstream" from the one that didn't
    work.  The receptacle where the problem actually was worked fine.

	Avi!  It was just the switch!  The _switch_!  Ha ha ha ha!
	C'mon, Avi, how dumbo can you get?!

	Sheesh, the only dumber thing I can think of is losing power
	to the light in the garage, digging up 70 feet of wire in the
	lawn looking for a break, and only then thinking to check the
	switch in the garage!  But who could be _that_ dumb?

	Regards, Robert.

    On the  subject  of  push-ins:  I have heard only bad things about them
    here.  On  the  occasions  I have used them, I have had trouble getting
    them to grip the wire. So, 
    
    1) Why are they still made?
    
    2) why no recall?
    
    Any ideas?

    While I was back home (Pittsburgh) over Christmas I saw a new type
    of outlet.  My father was converting a 2-prong outlet to a 3-prong
    outlet.  When he started to push the wires into the back of the duplex,
    I asked him why he was not using the screw terminals.  He then showed
    me a new type of outlet from Leviton.  It has holes in the back to
    insert the wire, but to secure the wire you have to tighten the
    screws on the side (after first loosening them to insert the wire).
    So this gives you a secure connection without wrapping the wire
    around the screw.

    Has anyone else seen these ?


    Mark
    

	The devices (switches, outlets...) that have the hole in the back
	for the wire that is designed to be tightened with the screws are
	(at least around here) expensive and the guy I sometimes work with
	calls them SPEC-GRADE receptacles.  I beleive they are designed for 
	use with THHN stranded wire (otherwise you would have to put crimps 
	on the ends of the stranded wire before going under the screw).  
	I have not seen the ones made my Leviton, only by Hubbell.  
	I just went to the "storage bin" and picked one up:

	Federal Spec WC-596

	Not cheap.  If Leviton has come out with them I wonder what they
	cost (not the .49 that the normal ones go for).

	bjm

re : Avi

You still have a problem to correct!

You have a 3-prong outlet that is not grounded!  You should either run a 
proper ground wire to the outlet, or replace the recepticle with a 2-prong.

My $.02

Bob

    For an amusing bug: The toaster plugged into a GFI stopped working
    suddenly (while it was on.) It worked fine in another outlet. So I
    check  and  there's  no voltage coming out of the GFI. The breaker
    hasn't  tripped. Pull out the GFI, no voltage to it. It's the only
    thing  on  the  circuit.  Check  at the breaker, no voltage at the
    breaker output. It turned out that the Al bus bar had corroded, so
    I  removed  the breaker, scraped the bus bar in the panel, and put
    it all back together.  It works fine.

--David

re .16

>You have a 3-prong outlet that is not grounded!  You should either run a 
>proper ground wire to the outlet, or replace the recepticle with a 2-prong.

I was afraid of that and had reached about the same conclusion.  I can't
believe that it was previously wired with a 3 prong recetacle and
no ground wire.  (is it against the code?)  I'm not sure how to connect
the ground wire to the junction box.   My Ortho book says something about
a bare wire but does'nt give a lot of detail.  Also do I need a permit
to wire the ground? I really want the ground as the 6 prong strip
and most of the prongs going into it are 3-prong.  There's no way I want
to convert to 2 prong because if I do I'll have to run a permanent extension 
cord to another room or move my computer elsewhere neither of which I'm 
about to do.

Avi

>< Note 2907.18 by NEWVAX::SHAPIRO "Dining Philosophers Eat at Fork Ipl" >
                            -< a bit more help... >-
>
>re .16
>
>>You have a 3-prong outlet that is not grounded!  You should either run a 
>>proper ground wire to the outlet, or replace the recepticle with a 2-prong.

I agree. But the best bet would be to rewire (at least) the entire room.

>I was afraid of that and had reached about the same conclusion.  I can't
>believe that it was previously wired with a 3 prong recetacle and
>no ground wire.  (is it against the code?)  I'm not sure how to connect
>the ground wire to the junction box.   My Ortho book says something about>

It sounds like your room might be wired with old BX cable with no ground.
If this is the case don't try and get away with bonding to the metal box.
If per chance you have a romex feed with a bare ground wire, you must locate
the bare wire and connect it with (2) other short sections of bare (or green
insulated wire). Connect the three together with a wire nut of the proper size.
Connect one wire to the metal box using a dedicated screw or clip and the other
to the ground lug on the recepticle. Also, make sure the source end of the feed
has a ground connection.

>a bare wire but does'nt give a lot of detail.  Also do I need a permit
>to wire the ground? I really want the ground as the 6 prong strip
>and most of the prongs going into it are 3-prong.  There's no way I want
>to convert to 2 prong because if I do I'll have to run a permanent extension 
>cord to another room or move my computer elsewhere neither of which I'm 
>about to do.

>Avi

Have you considered rewiring this particular room? 


Ross

    Re. 2907.19 and others

    Ross, Please read note 853.260+. 
    
    Charly

Charly, My appologies for over-quoting. However, I find using edit on the base 
note an easier way to answer. If doing this is against the rules of this 
conference, will the Moderators please state this?

Back to the original problem: I believe there is no easy fix to the Author's
no ground problem, short of rewiring the room. The Ortho book isn't going to be
much use in this. Get an Electrician to do the rewire. Perhaps you can reduce
cost by snaking the romex and have the Electrician make up the connections.

Ross

    Re: (quoting) against the rules of this conference
    
    Ross, Quoting is NOT against the rules of the conference BUT if you
    read note 853.260 and the replies that follow it you'll see that the
    consensus of the READERS, is to use quoting SPARINGLY. 
    
    It maybe "easier" for you to answer by "edit on the basenote note" but
    it's frustrating for ALL OF US to read a 38 line reply to get your 10
    lines of input. 
    
    Ross, you've given this conference some good input! We just want to see
    MORE of it and LESS quoting of the previous replies. 

    Thanks, Charly
    
    P.S. Moderators and readers, Sorry to deal with this here but it seemed
    appropriate. 

I've kept my nose pretty much out of this, but I agree with the consensus in 
853:  Quoting used sparingly (perhaps a phrase or sentence to indicate what you 
are responding to) is useful if you are responding to several points or to an 
older response.  Quoting whole paragraphs for a 1-line response just generates
an uneasy feeling of dej� vu in the readers.  But there are no rules regarding
this, and there aren't going to be any, because I'm sure not going to try to
enforce anything like that.  You can still reply by editing the reply you're
responding to, just delete most of the lines. 

Please don't respond to this issue any more here - use 853 if you must :^).

Paul

>< Note 2907.22 by CHART::CBUSKY >

>    Re: (quoting) against the rules of this conference
   


O.k., I'll refrain from over-quoting in the future.

Ross

      If  there  is no ground wire it ain't a grounded circuit and it is
      NOT providing the protection that your  electronic  equipment  may
      need. Unfortunately the "right" solution, as per previous replies,
      is to re-wire the room, or at least that one outlet.
      
      An  easier solution, if there is an easy (more-or-less) way to get
      a cable to the room would  be  to  install  a  seperate,  grounded
      circuit with only one outlet -- it could even be surface mounted.

      Just a thought...

    OK - here's a highly technical problem for all you would-be
    electricians out there. I have this one light socket which has worked
    fine for years until yesterday. A bulb blew. I replaced it and the
    second one went almost instantly. The third one lasted worked ok
    for a few hours but went on switch on this morning. Whats up ?
    I can just about rationalise a power surge blowing the odd bulb
    but this is just one socket. There are no other bulbs on this circuit
    - Any ideas ?

      Rod

    Well this is pretty weird.  Some (farfetched) guesses:
    
    1) A wiring problem somewhere is putting 240V instead of 120V through
    the circuit.  Try a voltmeter.  What else is on the circuit? - if
    not light fixtures, then must be outlets.  Try plugging in a floor
    lamp and see what happens.
    
    2) Bad batch of bulbs.  It happens.
    
    What else could it be?  Don't tell me freak corrosion in the socket
    is creating semiconductors in just the right way to make a full
    wave bridge rectifier which is stepping up the voltage???!!!  Nah.
    

    

    Just because it doesn't have a ground wire doesn't necessarily mean
    it isn't grounded.  Some manufacturers use a spring clip over one
    of the screw holes that's supposed to adequately ground the outlet.
    Obviously, that's only valid if the outlet is mounted in a metal
    box, AND the box itself is grounded, AND the screw is sufficiently
    tightened.
    
    I don't like these things, and always use a seperate wire, but I
    think the code allows them.
    
    /Don

    
    I had this happen to me in one of my sockets.  Upon close examination
    of the socket, the metal contact was crushed in, so that the bulb
    had to be screwed in too far for it to work.  It was fixable with
    some long nosed pliers.  Take a careful look at the socket, and
    compare it to a "healthy" socket.
    
    -tm
    

>< Note 2907.26 by NRADM::BROUILLET "What's another word for Thesaurus?" >
>                     -< Might be grounded by contact only >-
>
>    Just because it doesn't have a ground wire doesn't necessarily mean
>    it isn't grounded.  Some manufacturers use a spring clip over one
   

No way!  Article 250-74 Connecting Receptacle Grounding Terminal to Box.
An equipment bonding jumper shall be used to connect the grounding terminal
of a grounding-type receptacle to a grounded box.

There is an exception for surface mounted boxes, isolated grounds, special 
floor boxes, and special type recepticles (which I'm sure we're not dealing with
here).
Best bet is to always ad the bonding jumper.


Ross
BTW, How did I do on the quoting? Is this an acceptable level?

	Thanks for all the suggestions

	re .19

	BX wire is the armored cable stuff according to Ortho -- 
        steel or aluminum jacket around wires wrapped in heavy paper.
	When I look carefully at the outlet I think your guess is right.
	But your instructions sounded a bit much for my 
	level of skill/expertise (I was thrilled to be able to 
	replace a receptacle.   If I convert the 
 	outlet I think I'll call a pro (I'll try  to save up till 
	I have other things for him to do).

	re .25

	If I did a raceway wouldn't  I need another three prong outlet
	to plug it into?  Could that be in another room


	Thanks for all the help.  This is a great conference.

Bad batch of bulbs is a good guess. (Especially if they were bulbs 
bought from a fund-raiser kind of affair.)

Other things that kill them off fast are temperature and vibration.  
Is it an outside fixture?  A household bulb trying to survive the 
current cold snap in New England would have a short life.  They make 
special outdoor lamps for that.  Has something changed that would make 
more vibration where the fixture is?  New Laundry machines?  Kids have 
reached the age where they like to stamp their feet in the room above 
the fixture?

					>>>==>PStJTT

>
>	level of skill/expertise (I was thrilled to be able to 
>	replace a receptacle.   If I convert the 
> 	outlet I think I'll call a pro (I'll try  to save up till 


Wise decision, that old BX is bad stuff. Cause of many home fires.

Ross	

re< Note 2907.29 by WOODRO::THOMS "Ross - 264-6457" >

>Wise decision, that old BX is bad stuff. Cause of many home fires.

          Any basis for this statement?

          BX is insulated wire that uses an armored insulating jacket, that
          does double duty by also being the ground carrier.

          Where's the danger???
 

RE:30  Yes, old BX is dangerous. I'm talking about the stuff widely used 
pre-50's, the BX that used conductors insulated in rubber and cloth sheathing 
and with an unbonded metal casing. The wire insulation on that type of wire 
breaks down and "could" cause a short to the metal casing, which usually acts
like a high resistant path to ground. The casing will heat up like an element 
on an electric range. I've seen this stuff burn into floor joists!

Ross

>
>          BX is insulated wire that uses an armored insulating jacket, that
>          does double duty by also being the ground carrier.

 I overlooked this statement in my attempt to not use quotes. The BX wire  
currently available is good stuff. It does have a bonded metal casing and
modern wire insulation.                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
						  

    
    Does everybody else have bad luck with 3-way bulbs?  These things
    appear to blow (at least 2 of the settings) quite frequently in
    my house.  No other bulbs just these.  Anybody experience short
    life on 3-way bulbs?
    
    On the brighter side, I've been using one of these blown 3-way bulbs
    in my clamp on light and it appears to take frequent movement and
    vibration quite well (although it blew 2 of the 3 settings).  I had
    a rough service bulb that lasted about 1/2 hour.  

    Phil

    I agree. I've had poor luck with three-ways also. However, I have
    a 50-100-150 that has survived in the TV room for the last year.
    I three ways that don't last seem to be the lower wattage variety.
    
    Comments, Ideas???
    
    Steve

    Strangely enough the second bulb I tried was one of those three
    way jobs with two ways gone already. That fixes the batch problem
    i guess - they were all different types and makes of bulb. They
    also did all work before they blew so that puts pay to the non
    contacting socket theory. My own theory was that maybe the swith
    was arcing ( it is old ) and that would produce some sort of bulb
    blowing spike . I was all set to examine both the switch and the
    socket this weekend but guess what ? the last bulb I put in is still
    OK after two days. Maybe we forgot about Murphy ??
    
    Rod 

       Are these things worth the extra money? I'm tired of replacing
    the bulb in my droplight every time it takes even a mild jolt.
                                                     Denny

    The same thing happened to me last week. We have an outdoor fixture
    in our unheated mudroom. Three bulbs in a row blew -- literally
    blew -- they exploded!
    
    All 3 bulbs were the garden variety, no-name type that I bought
    in a six-pack at Channel. I tried a GE bulb and it's been burning
    brightly for nearly a week with no problems.
    
    Mike

re:.8 (rough service bulbs)

Seems like others in this conference have had problems with them, but I have
one in a drop light thats been burning for over 2 years without a problem.

Prior to that, I used to have to change the bulb often.  I'm satisfied that
the product performs as advertised.

Bob

    Re: 3 way bulbs
    
    The reason that they always blow "2 settings" at the same time is
    because the 3 way bulbs (50-100-150 for example) only have TWO filaments
    in it. Blow one filament and you lose "2 settings" at the same time.
    
    Low setting  = 50 watt filament on, 100 watt filament off
    Med setting  = 100 watt filament on, 50 watt filament off
    High setting = 50 & 100 watt filament on

    So If only the 50 watt filament works you have an the lamp goes
    ON, OFF, ON, OFF as you turn the switch. 
    
    If only the 100 watt filament works you have an the lamp goes
    ON, ON, OFF, OFF as you turn the switch. 

    Re: Lamps and sockets
    
    I also was having trouble with 3 way bulbs blowing in a particular
    lamp. I replaced the socket/switch assembly in the lamp and the problem
    seemed to go away! WHY, I don't know! Maybe weak contacts in the socket
    was causing poor/arching connections with bulb???? The lamp did make
    some snap/crackle/popping noises occasionally before I replaced the
    switch/socket. 
    
    Charly

Hey Charly!

   Thanks!  I always wondered how those worked, but never really knew that
I "wondered" enough to find out!  8^)

Question for the readership... In my entire life, whenever a 3-way bulbs 
blows, it has ALWAYS been the 50 watt filament.  Anyone ever blow the 100
watt ?

Also, as long as we're digressing, how does the bulb switch filiments in a 
3-way lamp?

Bob

    Re. how does the bulb switch filiments in a 3-way lamp?
    
    If you look at the base of the 3-way bulb, you'll see that there are
    three contacts instead of the "normal" two found on a a reguar bulb.
    The third contact is a ring between the center button and the threaded
    base. 

    One is the common (threaded base I believe) and the over two are for
    each of the filaments. The bulb needs a 3-way switch/socket (which also
    has three contacts) for full funtionality but 3-way bulbs will work in a
    regular socket (only one filament though). 
    
    Charly

    Re .8:
    
    Rough duty bulbs are definitely worth it.  I tried replacing the bulb
    in my worklight (after several years use) with regular bulbs.  After
    going through 3 or 4 bulbs in one weekend (any drop or jar would blow
    one) I bought another rough duty bulb.  It is still working after two
    years.  All were Sears. 
    
    Gary

    RE. 3-WAY BULBS
    
    I had recently suffered the same problem with three-ways (short
    life).  I was able to correct the problem in two of three bulbs
    by simply screwing them in tighter.  For some reason (could it have
    been my four year old son running around the room? ;^)) the bulbs
    had become a little bit loose.  So from now on, I'll check to see
    that they are secure before replacing them.
    
    BTW - excellent NOTES file!
    
    Moe

    I have read the code book over and over and my local building elctrical
    fire underwriter of course doesn't want to give me a straight answer.
    The closet is 8x10 but it is a closet. It used to be a bed room so one
    wall  has an receptacle already, but what about the others.?. Does the 6
    foot rule apply to a walk-in closet? Any guidance here would be greatly
    appreciated.
    
     Bill
    
     
    

                It has been my experience that a bulb (three-way or
        standard) is likely to blow more quickly if the bulb is loose in
        the socket. By loose, I mean not making good connection with the
        button contact in the center and/or with the middle ring on a
        three-way. The tightness of the threaded part doesn't seem to
        make any difference except in how it effects the first two.
                
                I have developed a theory (of which I have no real
        proof) for why this happens. Such a loose connection makes the
        connection higher in resistance than normal. Resistance in the
        circuit causes heat. The center contact and the ring have very
        little mass to dissapate this excess heat which is then
        transfered to the post holding the filament. Also agravating
        this is the fact that the same loose connection has added
        resistance to removing the heat from the bulb. We all know that
        a bulb in a place where its temperature is kept higher than the
        manufacturer intended will burn out earlier than one in an open
        socket. As I said before, this is a theory, but I think it has a
        real possibility of explaining the situation.
                
                /s/     Bob
                
p.s. I have noticed that bending the contacts on a loose socket so as to
        apply more pressure usually cures the problem. (TURN OFF THE
        POWER FIRST!!!)

Are you building this room, remodeling two rooms to make part of
the room into the walkin closet, or is this new construction?
The mention of the "former bedroom" implies remodeling.

We had a modular home in California that had a walk-thru closet
with a built in vanity on one wall. There was a duplex outlet in
it for misc grooming appliances.

If they reject the outlet, you could remove the outlet and blank
it off by putting wirenuts on the wires and/or taping them.

cal

	I read somewhere that the major bulb-zapper is the induced
	vibration in the filament as the current rises.  The magnetic
	field makes the little wire gyrate, and tungsten doesn't like
	to flex.  (I saw a slow-motion film of a bulb lighting up once.
	... amazing how much the filament wrenches around.)

	So, if there's an intermittence somewhere, it's like turning the
	bulb on and off a lot.

	Regards, Robert.

    We have a 100 watt clear bulb in the ceiling fixture in our bathroom.
    I pulled it out the other day to wipe a spot off it and the little
    spring attached to the filament came unhooked. I turned the bulb
    over and jiggled it around and the spring popped back into place.
    When I put it back in the socket -- it worked! Are all bulbs made
    this way (with the little spring, I mean?)
    
    Mike 

	I think you are asking two questions?

	1)  Are outlets allowed in closets?

	Unless there is some local ordinance against them, outlets are allowed 
	in closets.  Placement of the outlets can be tricky, due to potential 
	fire hazards, but common sense should help.

	2)  Do I have to follow the 6 ft rule?

	If it is a closet, no outlets are necessary.  But, if it is a dressing
	room then you would require outlets.  How do you tell the difference?
	That would be purely up to your building inspector.  If he won't tell 
	you, then nobody can.  He may want a more definitive plan then you have 
	provided.  For convenience I would follow the following rules, other
	people may have more suggestions.

		For every clear wall greater then 3' (clear walls are any walls 
		with out hanging clothes or storage only built-ins) provide an 
		outlet at normal height.  The 6 ft rule applies for clear wall 
		area.  

		For built-in make-up tables provide an outlet.  Use the same 
		positioning rules that apply for outlets over kitchen counters.

    RE: .18
    
    So in other words the number of on-off cycles has more to do with
    the life of a bulb than the length of on time.  Makes me wonder
    how many on-off cycles are used when these companies estimate the
    life of their bulbs.  My guess is 1.  This might explain why my
    bulbs never seem to last anywhere near the advertised life.  This
    sounds like a strong arguement for flourescent bulbs (they have
    them to screw into lamps now).  Or do those also have inherent
    weaknesses?
    
    Phil

  >  The closet is 8x10 but it is a closet. It used to be a bed room so one
  >  wall  has an receptacle already, but what about the others.?. Does the 6
  >  foot rule apply to a walk-in closet? Any guidance here would be greatly
  >  appreciated.
  >  
  >   Bill
    
     
  This is an interesting question. The code 210-52 specifies kitchens, family 
rooms, dining, living rooms, parlor, library, den, sunroom, bedroom, recreation
room.
Closets are exempt. However, an 8 by 10 room could be used as a bedroom. If not
by you, perhaps the next resident. I would wire it as a bedroom. The inspector
will most likely agree.

Ross 

    On-off cycling is the culprit.  It's the heat cooling cycling that
    kills them I'm sure.  My theory little scientific proof except that
    if you notice - When does the bulb blow ??  Usually when it's turned
    on - the highest stress point.  Ever take a piece of metal and bend
    it and bend it back and bend it ...  It doesn't take very many cycles
    to break it.
    
    The problem with flourescents is the cost.  Not the price of the
    bulb but the price of turning it on.  I've been told that if you
    are going to turn the light back on within 45 minutes, then you
    save electricity by leaving it on.  I think you'll find that the
    time-out periods of automatic lighting control systems in conference
    rooms backs this up.  It's not delays for short periods of inactivity
    but simply the cost of turning the light back on.

    re .21
    	If on-off cycling shortens bulb life, (makes sense) , how come
    refrigerator bulbs don't blow more often? Surely they turn on and
    off more frequently than any other bulb in the house.

    Re:.21
    That it takes 45 minutes worth of electricity to turn on a fluorescent
    tube is an "old wives' tale".  (No sexism intended.)
    
    What has been suggested is that fluorescent tubes wear out a bit
    from cycling, and get dimmer as they get worn, so their efficiency
    may decline a bit.  But that's only an energy-hit if you have a
    perfect servo system to turn on additional bulbs to make up for
    the fading!
    
    Arithmetic:  If a bulb takes 40 watts to run, 5 seconds to get bright,
    and ues 45 minutes worth of electricity to get bright, then it needs
    12*45*40 watts=21600 watts of surge current to start up.  Yeah,
    right.

>    	If on-off cycling shortens bulb life, (makes sense) , how come
>    refrigerator bulbs don't blow more often? 

I wondered the same thing about fridges and ovens.  I'm told that the 
lower wattage bulbs use a thicker, stronger element.  I don't know if 
it's true, but it sounds good.  Maybe you could try sticking a 100 watt 
bulb in the fridge and see how long it lasts for a comparison...

					>>>==>PStJTT

                "The light does go off when the door is shut."

	How do you KNOW?

    re .23
    
    I thiink you're missing part of the equation.  It certainly does
    not take 45 minutes of electric current to turn on a flourescent
    light.  I may be dumb, but ...
    
    There is a certain amount of energy required to startup a flourescent
    bulb.  I won't go into the details.  There is a certain amount of
    energy required to maintain the flourescence, (light).  The energy
    required to maintain a fl over a 45 minute (approx.) period is equal
    to the startup energy.  Therefore, if you shut off a fl light and
    turn it back on in less than the time period then you incur addittional
    energy cost over and above what you pay to maintain the light had
    you left it on.
    
    It could very well BE an old wive's tale.  But it does make sense
    that there is some period of time where you save by leaving it on.
    It could be that it's much shorter than 45 minutes given improvements
    in technology.  It was some time ago that I heard this and not from
    the most reliable of sources.  But your arithmetic says that I was
    not at all clear in what I meant.  It's the DIFFERENCE between having
    it on and (starting + on time).
    
    That clearer ??

re .27:

Go through the math again.  A fluorescent bulb *can't* consume 45 minutes of
electricity in a few seconds without tripping your breaker.  I'll explain:

A 40 watt fluorescent bulb running for 45 minutes consumes (45 * 60) * 40 =
2700 seconds * 40 watts = 108,000 watt-seconds of electricity, or .03
kilowatt-hours. For a fluorescent bulb to use 108,000 watt-seconds of
electricity in the 5 seconds it takes to start it, it must consume 108,000
watt-seconds in 5 seconds, or 21600 watts (108000/5). In order for it to use
21600 watts on a 120 volt circuit, it must draw 180 amps (21600/120).

I think it's a pretty safe bet that the 15A or 20A breaker on that circuit
would trip first.

It *is* true that a fluorescent tube consumes more power upon startup, but
the breakeven period is on the order of a few seconds.

-Mike

    .28 makes sense _if_ a 40-watt fluorescent bulb uses 40 watts to
    maintain fluorescence.  Other possibilities include:
    
    	- 40 watts is the startup energy
    
    	- "40 watts" is a nominal rating, related to either maintenance
    	  energy or startup energy but not directly measureable
    
    	- "40 watts" is a marketing term and has nothing to do with
    	  anything.
    
    Does anybody know for sure?

    I  think the savings in leaving fluorescents turned on are  due  to  bulb
    life   and  maintenance  costs,  when  fluorescents  are  used  in  large
    buildings.   When 4 pin fluorescents are started, the filaments in the
    ends heat up  till  the bulb starts, then the filament turns off.  The
    typical bulb can only be turned on a certain number of times before the
    heater filament breaks.  Lets  presume  the  life  of the bulb is 1000
    cycles (WAG), and you have 10,000  of  them  in your skyscraper.  Every
    day you have to find and replace  10 dead lamps, and pay your maintenance
    people $40/hour (WAG),(what with insurance and benefits) to do it.
    
    At some point, depending on energy costs, it makes sense financially to
    leave  the bulbs on all the time.  It may also have  security  benefits
    for the company and morale benefits for people who work late. 
    
    

    Yep, .30 seems right -- if you've got a HIGH cost of replacement,
    as in some industrial environments, then you leave 'em on just to
    save replacement labor costs.  Not much to do with energy.
    
    I'm pretty sure the power rating is the steady-state power ("to
    maintain fluorescence"), and the startup power is somewhat higher.

    I used to work for Philips and although I worked mostly on Halogen
    lamps, .30 is correct to the best of my knowledge.  On startup,
    a certain amount of the emitter coating is "blown off".  The more
    startups, the less coating and eventually no light.  Also, this
    is particularly important in buildings where you have many lamps.
    
                                           John

    We have a 20w fluorescent light in the basement.
    We have lived in the house 15 years.
    The fixture is on all the time (24 hrs per day, 7 days per w etc)
    The fixture is on its third tube.

    Has anyone had a successful experience putting in a new electrical
    outlet box into an existing wall?  My walls are standard drywall
    nailed to studs on 16-inch centers.  I'm thinking of locating a
    stud and cutting a hole right next to it the size of an outlet box.
    Then nailing the box to the stud.  Is this an easy thing to do?
    

    They make retrofit boxes.  They have "wings" on the side.  You cut
    a hole in the drywall, insert the box, tighten the screws on either
    side of the box, and the wings tighten up against the sheetrock
    and hold the box in place.  Very neat and tidy.
    
    I recommend you look at notes 1111.35 and 1111.36 for a list of notes
    which discuss installing electrical outlets and various wiring topics.
    The notes are too numerous to list here.

>        They make retrofit boxes.  They have "wings" on the side.  
    
    And don't cut the hole right next to a stud, or there won't be
    room for the wings on that side.
    

One other warning - not everyone carries these things.  some people may try to
sell you these aluminum gizmos that you bend around the box to hold them into
the wall.  Don't even think of using them.

btw - there are types with other than wings that will also work.  They basically
	work on a similar principle.  The key is that they can be physically
	tightened with some screws that are integral to the box.

-mark

    
    This is normally a piece of cake BUT it can be a bitch depending
    on your situation.
    
    	Where are you running the power from to feed the new outlet?
    	And are you running anything FROM the new outlet?
    
    	Is it on an outside wall where you will have to deal with
	insulation?
    
    	Is your access to the new outlet from the bottom (cellar) or
    	the top (attic)?

    Some helpful hints:
    
	Having two people will make the job much easier.  One to wiggle,
    	one to grab. ;-)
    
    	Drill 3/4" holes and invest $.99 for one of those 3' long,
    	spring-loaded claw thingies.  They make it sooo easy to grab
    	that wire once you spot it. (If you have to come down the wall)
    	You may not need one in your situation but for $.99 it's worth
    	having one around.


    Good luck!
        	

     The boxes that you need are called "old-work box". The are made of
    metal or plastic. I would advise you to get a metal box as it is more
    impervious to "non-professionals" installing them. This is not a dig
    but it is very easy to break a plastic box if you are not carfull.It
    can be confusing to the average person to wire a plastic box inline
    to a exsisting run and grounding it properly!
    
     Several other questions to ask are,
    	a. what kind of service do you have,15 or 20 amp. Makes a
    difference!
    
        b. is there enough slack in the exsisting run to add another box
    	 without undue problems.
    
     	c. what is running on the circuit now? you should load the circuit
    	 no more that 80% at any one time.
    
        d. How old is the wiring in your house? Grounding did not really
         start untill the middle 60's and was not really inforce untill
    	 very late 60's and early 70's. This makes a difference on how
         the box is grounded.
    
            I know I must sound a bit windy but if it is done wrong,you
    can have some real problems later!
    
    		Wayne

    Somerville lumber has plastic boxes with wings. I installed two
    last weekend and they work great. You can cut a hole in the drywall,
    even right up against a stud, and they work with no problem. I can't
    remember the price, but they were under a dollar each.
                                 
                                               Bill

    Addition to .6...
                           I forgot to add that the boxes come with
    a cardboard template to cut the right size hole in the wall.
    
                                                                  Bill

re .3

>One other warning - not everyone carries these things.  some people may try to
>sell you these aluminum gizmos that you bend around the box to hold them into
>the wall.  Don't even think of using them.

              Why not?

              I think you're referring to "madison strips".  I've used
              these many times when installing new outlets in old houses 
              to hold metal boxes in place.  Never had a problem, they hold
              the box in place just fine....  I think they cost about 6 cents
              each at Spags....

    re:.8
        I use them all the time too. Never had a problem!
                                                     Denny

    
      It has been my experience that the metal strips that you insert
    and then bend around the box work fine - at first, but because they
    are thin metal, they slowly dig into the back of the drywall from
    the force of inserting and removing plugs. After a while, they get
    loose, and the looser they get the faster they dig into the wall
    with each cycle of usage. Besides, you have to buy a box anyway,
    and it's not like we're installing a whole house full of them, just
    a few. The boxes with the tightenable wings are a MUCH better idea.
    The difference in price is nothing, compared with ease of use and
    the more reliable service.
    
    					Kenny

re .10 
     Well, I see your point, but if installed properly, and good wallboard
   was used, you shouldn't have a problem.  At least I haven't. 

     Are these boxes with the wings sold at Spags?  I've never used them,
   but I'll try them next time I add an outlet.

   Steve

    
    If you have to buy a box anyway, get the one with wings it's a much
    better installation. I use them all the time to add outlets and
    switches. It's true what .10 said, they DO have a tendancy to loosen
    up. I've seen it happen a few times.
    
    Bob
    
     

                Never having used the newer old work boxes with wings, I
        can't comment on them, they sound like they should be better
        than using the strips that I've always known as plaster ears.
                
                I have used plaster ears for a number of outlets, some
        of which are heavily used. If they are installed correctly, that
        means TIGHT, then they work well and the installation lasts with
        no problem. If they are installed loosely, then the box will
        move in time (depends on how often something is unplugged and
        how carefully). I've found that the trick is to grab the part
        that you fold over the edge of the box with pliers, and PULL the
        ear tight wile bending it over the edge of the box. If you don't
        do it right, it will be loose. My biggest objection to the ears
        is that you never can get that bent over portion to lie flat
        against the inside wall of the box and thus you increase the
        risk of having a short between the box (the ear) and the screw
        on an outlet or switch.
                
                /s/     Bob

    
    	I've installed both types. I've had the same problems mentioned
    	earlier with the metal strips... particluarly when I used them
    	on a couple of three prong outlets. The type with the wigs have
    	worked best for me (I've installed three in my new house). The
    	wings are on the top and bottom rather than the sides, so they
    	don't hit the studs. Builders Square has plastic winged boxes 
    	by the dozens.
    
    							* MAC *

    
    RE: .11
    
    Spag's only carries the madison straps that everybody doesn't like.
    The old work boxes with the attached hold-downs can be obtained
    at Sommervile Lumber.  I just installed 2 of the plastic ones ($1.15)
    and they work great.  They are large also (3.75"x2.25") which came in
    handy for the GFCI outlet.  One BIG advantage to this plastic box
    is that they could be removed and reused if necessary.  Sommerville
    also carries the metal boxes ($2.19) but they are a lot smaller.
    I've used these before also and they are easy too.
    

    Thanks for the tips.  I tried what I think is new type of box. 
    It's rectangular like the others, but with no ears or tabs sticking
    out.  Instead, it has a sheet metal band that goes from one side
    to the back to the other side; sort of a U-shape.  The U-shaped
    band is held to the box by a single screw that goes through the
    back of the box to the band.  
    
    To install the box, you cut a rectangular hole the same size as
    the box.  A paper template comes with it.  You insert the cable
    through the box and clamp it.  Then you put the box into the hole
    and simply screw the single screw tight.  That draws the metal band
    against the other side of the wall.  The ends of the band (on each
    side) spread away from the box due to a wedging action built into
    the band and the box.  The adjustable metal tabs at the top and
    bottom keep the box from moving into the wall space as the band
    is tightened.  Cost at State Lumber was about $2.55.
    
    It very easy to use.  The hardest part was cutting throught the
    dry wall, which had a skim coat on it.

    I have some boxes in my house with a similar clamping arrangement.
    When the clamps didn't hold so tight anymore, I repaired them with
    - you guessed it - madison bars.
    
    I too prefer the plastic box with wings. However,  I haven't found any
    that are more than one gang. For something like a double switch
    installation I always clamp few metal boxes together and use the bars.
    The wall strain has never been a problem for me with switch boxes. 

    
    An alternative if you have to gang boxes but want good support is
    to locate the box next to a stud and screw the box to it.  The ganged
    boxes should give plenty of room to screw or nail.

After a lot of looking, I managed to find double-gang boxes with wings at
Builders Square.  Theese boxes are indeed out there, but the problem is not
everyone carries them. 

My personal recommendations is to WAIT until you find them rather than do
something you'll end up regretting.

-mark

    If you are using metal boxes, you simply take the sides off a regular
    box and one side of a winged box and put the winged side back on
    the regular box and put the two boxes together. (confusing enough?) 
    
    I thought the reason for metal boxes was so that you could gang
    them together and not have to worry about whether you brought enough
    of the "right" box to the building site.  Am I missing something???

you are indeed missing something...

winged boxes (at least the ones I've seen) only come in plastic and hence
cannot be ganged as can metal ones.

-mark

    .re 21
    
    I bought 4 metal ones with wings 2 weeks ago at Home Depot.  I also
    bought 3 regular ones without wings and made double-gang boxes and
    hybrids. (nailed one side to a stud and put a wing on the other
    side) I like overkill.
    
    I have just the opposite experience, I have never seen a plastic
    one with wings.  Just goes to show that where we shop has a lot to
    do with what we would expect to use.

    Somerville Lumber in Acton has single, double and triple ganged 
    plastic boxes with wings. I bought a single and double on Sunday.
    
                                            Bill

    re .22
    
    Bruce,
    
      I bought 3 of the plastic ones with wings about a year ago at
    home depot on 41.  It just depends on when you shop, or which home depot
    you were at.  I just wish I could find a place like home depot up
    here.     
    
    Al Cook

    re. 24
    
    Thanks Al.  I usually shop at Home Depot on 41.  I will look more
    diligently next time I am in there.

We had an electrician, Russel Electric Inc., came in to do 3 things.

1. put in a cloths dryer outlet in the basement.
2. fix the light by the front door.
3. fix two outlets in the kitchen.

Rus came and did an ok job. He spent quite a bit of time trying to
fix the outlets in the kitchen. Finally he gave up and ran a new wire
instead. He spent about 4.5 - 5 hours total for all three jobs. 
He charged us $300 ($230 labor and $70 parts). He gave us estimate 
just for the first one that it will be $110.

Everything was fine, excepted we found OTHER two outlets in the kitchen
which are on the opposite wall of the outlets Rus fixed not working!
They worked before Rus came in and fixed the two. So my husband called
him up and he suggested that it might be something obvious and asked my
husband to take a look. Well, my husband did and spent all evening, night
figured out that the wires to those outlets were not connected. It took my
husband sometimes because the house is old and the house has the 
"old spaghetti wire" running all through the house. 

Rus did say that he played around with the other two GOOD outlets to 
try to figure out what the problems with the BAD ones. 

We just moved into the house last week and have so many things to do that
we tried to hire someone to do some of the job. 

Questions

- Should we pay Rus the whole amount of $300 ?

We would like to be fair to him since he did a good job on the other tasks.
I am sure he didn't, intentionally, leave the wire unconnected. But then, 
the whole idea of having someone do the job was to give us sometimes
to breath and we ended up have to spend time on the problem anyway.

We probably are going to pay him the whole amount anyway, but thought we get
some opinions.

- Is the $300 too much for the jobs I described ?

This is just for my future reference to see if we could had got away with
someone less expensive. 
    

    Did your husband fix the other two not working outlets??  If your
    husband had to clean up after a "professional" that sounds as if
    the "professional" is not quite so professional.  Giving the
    electrician the benefit of the doubt, it is easy to create problems
    when fixing others.  
    
    Disconnecting working outlets is not generally necessary to fix
    non working outlets.  A professional should check his work after
    all through to make sure that all is put back into place.  
    
    I would negotiate a reduction in the bill.  I would take the time your
    husband had to spend fixing the problem and deduct that time at half
    the rate the electrician gets an hour.  $230/5 hours = $46 hour. $46/2=
    $23 hour for your husband.  Call the electrician and offer him your
    plan.  If he does not go for it, call the Better Business Bureau.  List
    him in the recommendation note and your reasons behind the recommendation. 

    I don't think this should go to court.  Its more trouble and effort
    than it warrants.  Let him know that you have access to a network
    of recommendations and potential customers.  If he is a reliable
    tradesman, he will value his reputation and offer to reduce the
    bill or offer to fix it for free.

    
    Yes, my husband did fix the problem. 
    
    We got his name from this notesfile. More than one person recommmended
    him, that's why we went with him. I did mention to him that I got his
    name from the network at work. He even said, "That's why I got
    a lot of jobs from DEC employees. Wish I got job from DEC itself,
    though." It's not the exact words, but you got the idea.
    
    I like your idea. I will talk to my husband about this. 
    
    Thanks. 

>    Let him know that you have access to a network
>    of recommendations and potential customers.  If he is a reliable
>    tradesman, he will value his reputation and offer to reduce the
>    bill or offer to fix it for free.

PLEASE DON'T **EVER** hold up the threat of a bad recommendation in this file 
as a way to get a contractor to be nice to you, unless you want the net police 
breathing down our throats and potentially closing this file.

Paul

>< Note 3028.0 by XANADU::PIYANAI >
>              -< Electrician fixed two outlets, broke two others >-


I don't know the extent of the installation and the repairs, but $300
is not out of line. The electrician should repair his mistake at no cost.
Count yourself lucky to find an electrician that will do "old work". It
sounds like your house needs more than a couple of wiring repairs, (more
like a complete re-wire). This type of repair work is the bottom of the barrel
for an electrician, with most Homeowners reluctant to pay for proper repairs.

Ross

    
    rep .3
    
    Got the message ! I wasn't sure about the policy. You cleared it up.
    Thanks.
    
    rep .4
    
    You know something... I kind of agree with you. Since we called 4 
    electricians and Rus was the only one that showed up when he said
    he would, at least the second time (He posponed the first appointment). 
    
    I guess, I didn't know what kind of supply and demand out there for
    this kind of jobs.
    
    ....
    
    Thanks all for the comments.

    I'm looking for a sanity check with regard to a similar problem
    as expressed in the base note.  Here's the deal:
    
    I contracted for the service in my 35-year-old cape to be upgraded
    from 60A fused to 200A breakered.  Additionally, I asked for some
    seperate 20A branches to be run to existing outlets in the kitchen.
    The contractor (actually, an electrician for Nixdorf Computer who
    does electrical contracting on the side) quoted, after viewing
    the premises, roughly $950 for the service upgrade, plus
    $175 for the kitchen mods.  He also said he might not be able to
    do all the work in one session...the kitchen work might have to
    wait for the following week.
    
    No problem: the prices seemed fair, he arrived on time for the 
    initial look-see, and he came recommended.  We agreed, and I sent
    him a check for $400 to cover equipment purchases.
    
    Yesterday was the day.  I left a specification and a check for the
    balance of the service work for him.  The $175 for the kitchen we
    had agreed would be handled seperately, when that work was done.
    
    Last night I returned home and was pleasantly suprised to find all
    the work had been done, exactly as requested.  When I tried to turn
    on the TV, nothing happened; a little fault-isolation narrowed the
    problem to the 'cable box' the cable company had installed.  Well,
    I've had problems with this component before, so a quick call and
    subsequent trip to the cable company resulted in a new box, which
    worked great.
    
    Then, I noticed the clock on the VCR wasn't working.  More
    fault-isolation revelaed the VCR was dead, much like the recently-
    replaced cable box.  Now, I'm beginning to wonder if the electrician's
    installation had somehow put a spike of noise on the AC mains in
    my house which caused these components to go south.  It's just too
    coincidental that both could have failed in a similar mode (dead)
    on the same day.
    
    So, I called the electrician.  I said I thought the work was great,
    and that I was satisfied in every respect, with the exception of
    the components that I suspect were damaged as a result of the 
    installation.  I proposed having the VCR repaired and working out
    an arrangement to split the cost of the repair (after all, the VCR
    isn't new).  The cable box didn't cost me anything, so no big deal
    with that.
    
    I was honestly surprised when the electrician got all kinds of angry
    and kept saying, "What am I supposed to do...go and unplug every
    piece of gear in the house?  I'm not liable for that!"  I replied
    that the reason I hired an expert was so that stupid mistakes like
    this wouldn't happen; I claimed he should have warned me to unplug
    any delicate equipment prior to upgrading.
    
    After 'discussing' (he was yelling and I was doing my best to remain
    at least somewhat calm), he basically said: "If you're going to
    be such a jerk about this, then forget having to pay me for the
    kitchen work." 
    
    Here's my questions and comments:
    
    1. What's the opinion (OPINION) of noters on this?  Should he have
       warned me?
    
    2. What is a contractor liable for?  Keep in mind I was foolish
       enough not to establish up front what the action would be if
       problems developed.
    
    3. The moral, as always, is caveat emptor (buyer beware): Unplug
       anything valuable before playing with the juice!
    
    Sorry to take so long to explain this.
    
    Regards,
    John Kelly
     
      
                                                   
    

    I think its reasonable for a contractor to warn you of potential
    damage to sensitive items that people are likely to have.  Most
    households now have VCRs and probable half have cable boxes.  
    
    I'm an EE and I didn't think to unplug my VCR when my electrician
    put in a new service entrance cable.  How would the average non
    technical person be expected to anticipate the need for disconnecting
    equipment? 
    
    I think you were quite justified (and reasonable) handling the
    situation like you did.
    
    Bob
               

Being a software type I'd claim its a hardware problem ;^)

I'd just chalk it up to experience. I've had my VCR and cable box go from power 
outages while I was out of the house. They are sensitive and don't have surge
protection built in. You can't always get a call from the power company when
they spin down a generator at the source.

Unless you can prove that that circuit was improperly powered once (220 vs 110)
then I'd just drop it and be happy you found someone to do a good job and show
up when they said they would.

    I don't understand why the upgrade did anything to your equipment.
     I had the same type of thing done in my house (60A fuse to 200A
    breaker).  I didn't unplug a thing, and didn't have a single problem.
    
    It sounds like the guy gave you a $175 break to cover the damage.
     This sounds like it is more than fair, since you said the VCR was
    old.  It almost sounds like the guy was so angry that he gave you
    more than maybe you should have gotten.  After all, you were willing
    to split the repair charges.  If the repair charges were going to
    be $175, then I might consider getting a new VCR.
    
    Ed..
    

    The electrician left a message on my answering machine yesterday:
    he apologized for getting heated...said he had just finished arguing
    with his wife prior to talking to me and was steamed to begin with,
    that he'd never encountered a VCR-cable box problem like this before,
    and he wanted to make the situation right, whatever it took.  I
    felt much better after getting the message, probably because I feel
    vindicated, somehow.  The best part is that now I feel like I can
    do business with the guy again.
    
    Absolutely agree with -.1: He cut off his nose to spite his face.
    In light of his call, I left a message on his machine (these half-
    duplex conversations are wierd!) saying I'd be glad to go back to
    what I originally proposed: we split the cost of the VCR repair,
    and I pay him the $175.
    
    The VCR cost about $.20 to repair: blown (and I mean BLOWN...there
    was no fuse left!) fuse.  
    
    Regards,
    John K.
    
                                  
    

happy ending i'd say.  you're both happy.  he's still got a good reputation 
here, and now, so do you!  a lot of people would have found the 20 cent fix 
and still told the guy to go packing.  you know i don't mind paying honest 
people what i owe them, but it really burns me to pay $1 to the other type.

craig

Re: .6

If your electrician connected the neutral line last when re-connecting
your house to the supply, the result could be nearly 220V across some of
your appliances.  This is because one "leg" likely has more things
on it than the other-- the one with the more current draw gets less than
110V and the other leg gets more!  If the imbalance is severe, that
could mean nearly 220V applied to some appliances.

This may have happened when he plugged in the meter.  I think it the
electrician's fault, though, since this could be prevented by not
throwing the main breaker until ALL connections have been made
(including putting the meter back in).  Or he may have made a mistake
and not connected the neutral line before first flipping the main
breaker.
                        --tom

    The following notes from the our local facility conference seem
    to be relavent here...
    
    Which way will you install your next outlet?
                     --tom
    
       <<< REGENT::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]WESTFORD_OFFICE.NOTE;1 >>>
                      -< Westford Facilities Conference >-
================================================================================
Note 140.0              Why are the outlets upside-down?               7 replies
HANNAH::PORCHER "Tom, Terminals Firmware/Software"    6 lines   3-MAR-1989 13:43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Normally, the ground pin is on the bottom.  But I just noticed
    that every outlet I have seen is upside-down!
    
    I presume this isn't intentional, but I wouldn't have this
    electrical contractor wire my home!
                     --tom
================================================================================
Note 140.1              Why are the outlets upside-down?                  1 of 7
VIDEO::FINGERHUT                                     13 lines   3-MAR-1989 13:58
                    -< Why the outlets aren't upside down >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>    Normally, the ground pin is on the bottom.  But I just noticed
>    that every outlet I have seen is upside-down!
>    
>    I presume this isn't intentional, but I wouldn't have this
>    electrical contractor wire my home!

        If a plug isn't plugged in all the way here, and a wire dropped on
    top of it, the first thing it would hit is the ground.
    
    In your house, the first thing it would hit are the hot and neutral
    prongs of the plug.  
    
    Good thing you didn't wire this building!!
================================================================================
Note 140.2              Why are the outlets upside-down?                  2 of 7
HANNAH::GLANTZ                                        2 lines   3-MAR-1989 14:50
                              -< The Real Reason >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I recall, from an OSHA lecture I heard at DEC, that the code now
    requires the "upside down" outlet.
================================================================================
Note 140.3              Why are the outlets upside-down?                  3 of 7
REGENT::MOZER "H.C.C. ;-)"                            4 lines   3-MAR-1989 15:20
                             -< Makes sense to me >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    
    I guess that explains why the new ground-fault interrupter I bought
    has to be mounted with the 3rd (ground) pin on top in order for
    the "Test" and "Reset" button wording to be right-side-up!!
================================================================================
Note 140.4              Why are the outlets upside-down?                  4 of 7
REGENT::MERRILL "Take that <frown>, turn it upside " 22 lines   6-MAR-1989 09:37
                             -< thoughts on three >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Lab:  "Sort the ground wire first."
    
    The falling-wire idea sure makes sense for labs and industrial
    applications but less sense for home applications where the "old" rule
    should apply: where people are more of a hazard than are wires: 
    
    Old:  "The ground wire should be the last one pulled out."
    
    This can be interpreted such that if the plug is mounted above waist
    height then put the ground on the bottom; if the wire might be stepped
    on by a passer-by (as in a hall socket) then put the ground on the
    bottom. - that's why most (old) household wirings have "little faces"!
                                                   
    Note that I am just trying to explain why home electricians tended
    to do it that way.  Today, it may be smarter to put the ground on
    top around the house because of the danger to little people who
    like to put paper clips in holes (they are more likely to put something
    in the TOP hole first!) or WORSE to "kiss the little face!!"
       
    	Rick
    	Merrill
    
================================================================================
Note 140.5              Why are the outlets upside-down?                  5 of 7
HANNAH::PORCHER "Tom, Terminals Firmware/Software"   14 lines   6-MAR-1989 12:19
                           -< As The World Turns... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dave, that's a good point, and probably why OSHA has made the new rule.

However, a lot of gadgets assume that your outlets are mounted with
the ground on the bottom-- that includes polarized timers, remote-control
gadgets, modem power supplies (to name those in my house).

I guess the standard will change, and over time, all devices will reverse
their orientation.  Until then, we'll probably see a mix of both ground-down
and ground-up devices.  The first one I ever heard of was in .3.

I guess all new homes will be built with outlets oriented horizontally :-).

As a aside, does it feel better to be ground-down or ground-up?
                 --tom
================================================================================
Note 140.6              Why are the outlets upside-down?                  6 of 7
REGENT::POWERS                                        7 lines   7-MAR-1989 09:50
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

< Note 140.5 by HANNAH::PORCHER "Tom, Terminals Firmware/Software" >

> I guess all new homes will be built with outlets oriented horizontally :-).

But note!  The sideways outlets have their neutral lug up so that if you
drop something on them it will touch neutral before hot.  (Ground is then
to the left.)
================================================================================
Note 140.7              Why are the outlets upside-down?                  7 of 7
REGENT::JONES                                        10 lines   7-MAR-1989 10:01
                               -< OSHA's right >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I would like to cite a personal experience which reinforces the
    new convention of locating the ground prong upwards on three-prong
    electical outlets.  In my home, which is wired the other way, the
    screw holding the cover for an outlet had loosened.  This caused
    the cover to fall.  Being a metal cover, this resuted in a shower
    of sparks, the welding of the cover to the plug and the popping
    of a circuit breaker.  Under some conditions this could have caused
    a fire.
    
    Seems that OSHA may have the right idea.

    Hi,
    
    I've recently installed a switch in a room that controls some
    recessed lighting. The lights are up and everything works fine.
    My problem is putting the swtich inside a box.  The switch is
    a couple of inches from an existing switch, one that is mounted
    on a door frame. I've installed switches before and always used
    the "old work box" with the wings that tighten up against the
    dry wall when you turn the screw. The problem with this mount
    is that the depth of the space behind the wall to the closet
    behind it is only 2.25 inches. The old work box is 2.5 inches
    deep. So my options are: ?
    
    1. don't use a box.
    		Can this be done ? Can I mount a switch to the wall
    		without using a box ? A point to remember: the switch
    		is a dimmer one,so it is going to be constandly 
    		"pushed", i.e. to turn it on and off, as opposed to
    		regular swith, which goes up and down for on/off.
    
    2. use another type of box.
    		I've read that there are plastic boxes available.
    		I've never seen any. Are they "less deep" than the
    		old work box ?
    
    Any suggestions ? The wall around the new box isn't too sturdy anymore,
    as the old work box didn't come out of the wall without a struggle.
    I didn't realize the depth problem until after the box was inserted
    into the hole.

        Is there a way of strengthening the wall from behind the wall?
    
    Thanks.
    
    George
    
    

    I believe that the code will require that the dimmer be enclosed
    within a box. I have seen shallow boxes, but without knowing the
    type of dimmer you have, I don't know if it would fit. The sze of
    a box is governed (besides physical limitations) by the number of
    wires within the box, so if you only have 1 romex in and 1 out,
    it this may not be a problem.
    
    Eric

    They have boxes of varying depth.  But as mentioned in the earlier
    reply, code determines the minimum size box for the application.
    
    Dimmer switches come in different sizes.  I replaced a dimmer about
    a month ago and found they have a "slim" version which is at least
    half as thick as the regular switches.  They also have dimmer switches
    which turn to turn on and continue to adjust brightness level.
    This would help alleviate some of the stress on the weakened wall.
    They also have dimmers which look like regular flip switches but
    instead of a two position they are off at bottom and brighten as
    they go towards the up position.  All of those I saw were made by
    General Electric.  I was shopping in Atlanta Georgia at Home Depot
    so I don't know of any places in the New England area to look for
    these things.
   

    You didn't describe just how the wall is damaged; if it's, say, badly
    cracked drywall, you'll need to cut out a rectangular section, patch,
    and paint.  Don't expect damaged drywall to support your new box very
    securely; a poorly-secured box is almost as dangerous as no box.

I'm still confused as to why you wall isn't a full 3-1/2" thick.  Is there a
hunk of 2X4 in the way (sounds like there might be).  I had this problem with an
outlet I installed so I got out my handy chisel and cut away enough stud to get
the box in.  Might that be an option for you?  

Perhaps if you can describe the obstruction we can come up with a way to deal
with it.

-mark

		From the  description it sounds like he has a closet made 
	using 2x3 construction, a  common  problem with interior walls in 
	DIY remodels. 
		
		Hopefully you  don't have more than 2 wires needed in the 
	box so you can  use a shallow box that would take care of the box 
	problem.
	
		As far as patching the wall a  trick  I've used is to get 
	some 1/4 inch lattice and cut as long a piece as you can fit into 
	the whole in the wall along  either side of the opening and drill 
	screw and counter sink from front.  see diagram below.  This will 
	stiffen up the wall along on either side of the wall enough to so 
	the little wings will not pull through.  And  all  you have to do 
	is patch over 4 screws.
	
					...Dave
					
	
	
		+======+	 +======+	
		|  o   |         |  o   |
		|    l |+-------+|      |
		|    a ||	||	|
		|    t || whole	||	|
		|    t || for	||	|
		|    i || box	||	|
		|    c ||	||	|
		|    e |+-------+|	|
		|   o  |	 |  o	|
		+======+	 +======+

    Hi,
    
    Yes, the obstruction behind the wall is a linen closet. 
    Directly behind the hole for the box is a stud for the
    closet. I only have the 1 wire for the lites going to
    this switch. 
    
    I have yet to see a box that is 2.25 inches deep or less
    in a store that I have looked in. I must not be looking
    in the right stores, but I'll continue to look.
    
    The trick with the lattice seems like something that I
    could handle, I'll have to give it a try. Thanks for the
    tip, it sounds like it should stiffen the wall enough.
    
    George

In my 53 year old 2 family, most of the inside walls are not very "deep".
I don't know why its so shallow in there; the walls are plaster and lath.
But I've managed to fish lots of romex throughout the house.

So I've had to use shallow metal boxes instead of the deeper ones made of
both metal and plastic (with the wings) .  They're available at Spags.

I'll try to remember to measure the depth, but I would say that it's no more 
than 2 or so inches.

Steve

>    So I've had to use shallow metal boxes instead of the deeper ones made of
>both metal and plastic (with the wings) .  They're available at Spags.

    I checked out Spag's last night. They had the shallow metal boxes,
    but they didn't have any shallow plastic boxes. I asked one of the
    guys working there if they carried any of the shallow plastic ones
    with wings and he said the only plastic boxes they carried were
    these big boxes, (i'm guessing they were 3x3x3) which was not what
    I was looking for.
    
    The shallow metal boxes were 2" deep, but didn't have the wings.
    Any other suggestions as to where there might be some shallow boxes
    with wings ?
    
    George

    Any well-stocked electrical supply house should have all conceivable
    combinations of deep, shallow, metal, plastic, wings, clamps, whatever. 
    More expensive than Spag's, but for quantity=one, who cares?  The
    counter help will probably be less patient and helpful than at your
    friendly neighborhood hardware store, so know what you want.
    
    I've bought specialized electrical supplies at:
    
    - Marlboro Electric, on Rt. 85 about 1/2 mile north of the Registry.
      Use the side door - the front door is for the lighting showroom
    
    - Maynard Supply, on Rt. 62 heading toward Concord.  Open until noon
      on Saturdays.

    Also, you can use "madison bars" with a metal box. They are
    discussed earlier in this note. 

    I've just scanned the index and some selected notes from the various
    keywords concerning electrical work and haven't found an answer
    for this yet so I'm assuming that it's a new question...
    
    Is there any sort of device/tool for locating existing wiring runs
    within a wall, sort of like a studfinder for studs?
    
    My problem is that I need to relocate a couple of outlet boxes that
    were originally placed in inconvenient locations (like, where I
    want to mount a medicine cabinet in the bathroom) and I'd like to
    know if any of the possible new locations might be convenient to
    the existing wiring run.  Given that there is some flexibility in
    the new location, I would rather be able to choose an intended spot
    that minimizes hassle, like fishing wire, if at all possible before
    cutting holes in the walls to find out what's inside there.  So,
    lacking x-ray vision, I'm hoping to be lucky and find that there's
    a tool to help me out.
    
    Can anybody give me a pointer, or suggestions for solving my problem?
    
    Thanks - Bruce

    I've seen some ads for a gadget that might help. It locates wires in
    the wall by detecting electric fields. Problem is, I can't really
    remember where I saw it advertised: probably Leichtung's catalog, or
    possibly either Sharper Image or Brookstones. Someplace like that. 

	I've searched through old ELECTRICALly-keyworded notes, found
	some that touched on this topic, but from the point-of-view
	of having some basic electrical knowledge. I think it deserves
	its own topic.

	Is upgrading grounded two-prong outlets to three-prongs something
	that can be done easily and safely by someone with no electrical
	knowledge whatsoever? Any unusual/potentially dangerous situations
	to look out for (i.e., wires the wrong color)? I believe that
	it's just a matter of 

	A. Test the outlet to make sure it's grounded (just because the
		few our inspector tested were grounded doesn't mean they
		all are)
	B. Turn off the circuit-breaker for that outlet (we've already
		mapped the circuits)
	C. Take out the old outlets and put in the new ones, making the
		appropriate connections (explanations in simple one-syllable
		words welcome:-).

	If it's really that simple I'd hate to pay an electrician to do it,
	but my wife's a little uneasy about doing our own wiring. Also, I
	know the permit rules in Mass are excessive, but something this simple
	wouldn't require a permit, would it?

	Thanks, Mike

I'm pretty sure this matter has been discussed in several places, but I couldn't 
find any of them.  I seem to remember that they're scattered tangents from other
discussions, which is reason enough to start a new topic.  If anybody finds 
those existing discussions, please point to them here.

Actually, I found 2907.19 ff, but that discussion is almost entirely content-
free.  (My apologies to those who contributed to that discussion; perhaps I was
put off by the tangent-within-a-tangent about over-quoting in replies!)

Re wires the wrong color and other hazards:  anything's possible.  Guard against
errors in your circuit map by not trusting it:  use it to decide which breaker
to turn off, but then use a circuit tester (one that you know to work!) to make 
sure it's dead before you remove the faceplate.

Assuming that your predecessor followed Code, the rule is white (-insulated) 
wire to silver screw, black (-insulated) wire to gold screw, and bare wire to
green screw.  If the existing installation doesn't follow these rules, you
should change it to do so if possible.  The goal is _both_ to have the proper 
side of the circuit connected to the proper holes in the outlet (for the safety
of people who plug things into that outlet), _and_ to use the proper-colored
wires inside the walls (for the safety of people who will work on the wiring in
the future).

An interesting problem occurs with knob-and-tube and other old, pre-colored-
insulation wiring technologies:  no color coding!  If you're looking at 
grounded service, though, you don't have that problem.

Re "testing the outlet to make sure it's grounded":  as a matter of curiosity,
how are you going about this?

Re the actual connections:  color coding as above.  Use the screw terminals, not
the push-in connections.  If you're lucky, the way the wires are bent for the
screws on the existing outlets will match the screws on the new outlets, and all
you'll need is a screwdriver; otherwise, you'll need needle-nose pliers and wire
cutters too.  Ah, another hazard:  cut-off wire ends can fly into your eyes.  If
you can't remember to cut away from yourself, wear eye protection.

I assume there's already a (bare) ground wire to the box.  You need to ground
the green screw as well; if there's enough slack, just loop the wire under, but
there probably isn't, so you'll need to cut the existing wire, add an additional
length of bare wire to the green outlet screw, and connect all three (the two
cut ends and the new one) with a wire nut.

If you encounter anything you don't understand, STOP.  Don't guess; figure it
out, or get help.  Make an accurate diagram of how things are connected, so you
can put things back if necessary.  Sometimes making a diagram will make you slow
down enough that you'll figure out what's going on by yourself.

Testing:  the first thing you plug into your newly-rewired outlet should be a
circuit tester to make sure everything's OK.  You can buy a nifty three-prong
tester that lights up in various ways to indicate various faults.  Or you can 
use a regular two-legged tester; it just takes longer.  The three-pronger is
cheap, quick, fun, and it's what the Maynard electrical inspector uses.  It also
makes a great Christmas present for your electrically-active friends...

re permits:  technically, I believe that this work does require a permit in 
Massachusetts (but I don't know for sure).  In some towns, homeowners may pull 
permits for electrical work they do in their own houses, and an inspection is 
included in the permit fee.  (Note that an official inspection might make your 
wife happier about the whole process.)  Other towns don't allow anyone except a
licensed electrician to pull an electrical permit.  (What town are we talking
about here?  Maybe somebody knows what the situation is there...)

I've deliberately used a rambling approach here (rather than a step-by-step one)
because I can't predict what you'll find inside those boxes.  You'll be better
prepared to deal with the unexpected if you understand the underlying reasoning,
rather than relying on a cookbook approach.  Besides, rambling is more fun.

	Thanks, Dave. I did run across those tangents, but since they
	were all tangled up with other topics, and not very clear to
	someone not already versed in electrical terms, I felt it should
	have its own topic.

>An interesting problem occurs with knob-and-tube and other old, pre-colored-
>insulation wiring technologies:  no color coding!  If you're looking at 
>grounded service, though, you don't have that problem.

	Don't be so sure:-). I do know of a couple of places with knob-and-
	tube in the house. Presumably any grounded outlet is not going
	to have knob-and-tube, though, correct?

>Re "testing the outlet to make sure it's grounded":  as a matter of curiosity,
>how are you going about this?

	Our home inspector used some gadget that touched to the screw
	to test if our outlets were grounded - presumably we could easily
	find the same thing at a hardware store (along with the circuit
	tester you mention, which I assume is a different gizmo).

>(What town are we talking
>about here?  Maybe somebody knows what the situation is there...)

	Pepperell.

	Thanks, Mike

    Do I understand correctly that so far this discussion assumes the
    wiring going to the outlets is 3 wire?
    Suppose it is only two wire? (this is what I assume to be the case for
    my 35 yr old house, but I don't really KNOW!)

    If the feed is 2-wire then you'll have to run a separate ground
    wire to EACH outlet.  This is possible, but somewhat expensive.
    This was the method used in building a 1950s-era house in which
    I lived when I was in Michigan.  Apparently the builder/electrician
    had lots of 2-wire cable to use up but wanted everything grounded,
    so they ran the separate ground to each box.
    
    If the feed is 2-wire DO NOT put a grounding-style outlet in
    unless you run a ground wire to the outlet.

.2>  Presumably any grounded outlet is not going
.2>  to have knob-and-tube, though, correct?

The only way I know of that know-and-tube could produce a grounded outlet is if
somebody later ran a separate ground wire as in .4, 


Re your (inspector's) method of testing a 2-prong outlet to see if it's
grounded:  there are several conditions other than a proper ground that would
satisfy this test.  Maybe I'm excessively fussy, but if it were me, I would want
a few other indications that the ground wires in the house are correctly
installed.  I would start at the breaker panel/fuse box, and examine the
condition and workmanship of the ground bus.  Then I'd check the integrity of
its connection to earth ground (a large, bare wire connected to a water pipe or 
to a ground rod).  I would trace the wiring to a few outlet boxes to ensure that
there's an unbroken ground path.  And I would look around for secondary earth
ground connections, which somebody might have thought would be easier than 
running all that wire around (but which are in fact a bad idea).

As I say, maybe I'm excessively fussy.  I also have a turn-of-the-century house
that contains every conceivable wiring technology, mostly with excellent 
workmanship and materials but with some inexcusable shortcuts here and there.

I am also in this situation.  Many of the outlets in my new house seem
to have been wired with cable that had no ground conductor.  The house is
23 years old.  At least one of the boxes itself does not appear to be
grounded.

Somewhere in this conference I saw a discussion of how one could use
a GFCI to allow a three-prong outlet.  Can anyone provide a pointer?

			Steve

                One kicker in this is that it is not always possible to
        tell looking inside a box if there is a ground or not. 
                
                In my 50's style ranch, the wiring is grounded, but the
        ground wire never enters the box. Evidently, a reasonable way to
        do the grounding in those days was to wrap the bare wire from
        the romex around the end of the romex and capture the wrapped
        part with the box cable clamp. Sometimes you can see the ground
        wire, but you often can't. This does make the box an integral
        part of the ground system and requires that the box clamp be
        tight! Not the best of all possible worlds, but better than
        nothing.
                
                The invisibility would also be the same if the grounding
        depended upon old fashioned bx cable which was proven to be a
        not so good ground and is now used mainly for mechanical
        protection. (There is special BX that properly carries a ground,
        but that only confuses the issue unless you know that is what
        was used.)
                
                /s/     Bob

      My  understanding  is that using a separate ground wire with a two
      wire cable does NOT meet  code  for  new  construction.   I  don't
      understand  this  fully,  but apparently if the ground wire is not
      run close enough to the cable with the hot and  neutral  wires  it
      may not work as well as it needs to for safety.

      I  don't  know  what  the  code says about retrofits for existing,
      ungrounded, two wire circuits, but the above seems to suggest that
      there  are special rules to follow and special test to ensure that
      the resulting ground does work properly.

      Perhaps  one of the more code-knowledgeable people who follow this
      file can offer an explanation. My only retrofit experience in this
      area  involved  running  new  "2+ground"  cable  from  the circuit
      breaker to re-modeled bath and kitchen areas.

    Hi, maybe I can shed some light on this subject:
       
    The NEC covers this subject in article 210-7, receptacles and cord
    connectors. I will point out the particular paragraphs for reference
    if some of you have an NEC book handy.
    
    210-7a, receptacles on 15 and 20 amp branch circuits shall be of
    	    the grounding type and shall be installed only on circuits
    	    of the voltage class and current for which they are rated,
    	    except as provided in tables 210-21(b)(2) and(b)(3).
    	  
          (exception: Nongrounding type installed in accordance with
           210-7(d), exception.
    
     210-7b, To be grounded. Receptacles and cord connectors having
    	     grounding contacts shall have those contacts effectively
    	     grounded.
    
    	   (exception: recep. mounted on portable and vehicle mounted
    	               generators.....250-6
    
    	    (exception: Ground fault circuit interupter replacement
    	                recept. as permitted by section 210-7(d),exception
    
    	210-7c, Methods of grounding. ( this paragraph explains where
    	        the ground contacts are to be connected to the equipment
    	        ground conductor, also includes three fine print notes.
    	        It really should be read through to fully understand
    	        it.)
    
    	and now for the important one......
    
    	210-7d, Replacements. grounding type receptacles shall be used
    	        as replacements for existing nongrounding types  and
    	        shall be connected to a grounding conductor in accordance
    		with (c) above.
    
    		(Exception: Where a grounding means does not exist in
      		 the receptacle enclosure either a nongrounding or
    		 a ground-fault circuit interupter type of receptacle
    		 shall be used. A grounding conductor shall not be
    		 connected from the ground fault circuit interupter
    		 type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the ground
    		 fault circuit interrupter type receptacle.
    
    newly added : Existing nongrounding type receptacles shall be permitted
    1990 code   : to be replaced with grounding type receptacles where
    		: supplied through a ground fault interrupter type
    		: receptacle.
    
    			
    I tried to be as accurate as possible in typing this from the 1990
    NEC code book. But a person should be very familiar with the electrical
    industry in general, before trying make interpretations directly
    from the NEC. I have been working with this and other similar
    documents for 15 years and have come to one conclusion, it is very
    difficult to interpret this document, it was never intended for
    an audience not trained in this field, and I have even hard a hard
    time getting two professional electrical inspectors to agree on
    an interpretation at the same time! Which should say something about
    the way this document is written.
    
    	I hope I have not been too long winded, and also hope this helps
    some of the homeowners here do some of their own work safely. 
    
    	Although I am a licensed electrician, I do believe it is a
    homeowners right to be able to perform their own repairs!
    
    Paul 
    
    			 	 
    

    
    Re: ground wire and clamp
    
    My last ranch was wired this way. I upgraded to grounded outlets by
    straightening out this wire, attaching a screw to a threaded hole in
    the metal box (NOT the clamp screw, this is against code), looped the
    wire around this screw and then attached the end to the green screw on
    the duplex outlet. That way the box AND the duplex are grounded.
    
    CdH
    

    This discussion applies to 115v circuits only.
    
    My understanding is that the code prohibits using 20 amp electrical
    outlets (the kind with the "T" shaped slot) on 15 amp circuits.  I can
    understand this except for two things.  First, I have never seen an
    appliance with the special 20 amp plug (even my large 115v air
    conditioner has a regular 3-prong plug, although it is intended for a
    20 amp circuit).  Second, the 15 amp sockets are inferior to the 20 amp
    versions -- I've had to replace some in which the blades lose their
    ability to make good contact. 
    
    Are there any 15 amp sockets made with the same heavy duty contacts
    as the 20 amp versions?
    
    Tony

    Your understanding is correct.  The keying is intended to prevent
    insertion of a 20 amp appliance plug into a 15 amp branch circuit
    outlet.  Sure, the 20 amp appliance would probably blow the fuse/
    breaker, but in the case of fuses Joe YoYo would probably stick a
    penny behind the fuse.  The overload could result in a fire.
    
    The 69-cent duplex outlets sold at Sommerville and etc. are worth
    what you pay for them.  You can buy higher quality units (such as
    Hubbel) but be prepared to pay several bucks for each one.

    Spec-grade outlets are one step above a generic outlet and hospital
    grade are one step above spec grade. A spec grade outlet should
    be fine for heavy duty use.
    
    							Chris

Moderators: I looked for a note on this topic, but failed to find one.  I'm
pretty ignorant when it comes to wiring, so just let me know if
I simply missed the information.

I have a water bucket heater for my dog's water bucket.  This thing has
signs all over it that say things like "plug into properly grounded outside 
outlet. don't use an extension cord.  have an electrician install an outlet
if you don't have one".  Well, why can't I use an outside extension cord?
What's the difference between an extension cord and a wire attached to a
wall?  

You can buy outlets and conduit.  Can I run conduit from an inside outlet
to an outside outlet that I install?  What is so hard about this that it
takes an electrician?  From my trip to the hardware store, it looks a lot
easier than replacing an improperly wired light fixture (a task in which
I eventually triumphed).

    For one   thing,  outside  outlets  must  be  GFIs  (Ground  Fault
    Interrupters).  They're  almost  as  easy  to  install as standard
    outlets, so that shouldn't bother you.  

    Extension cords  shouldn't be used permanently, as they tend to be
    exposed to abuse.

    Before installing a new outlet, check that the circuit that you're
    adding it to has enough capacity.

--David

    RE-1 	
    	Correct.
    
    RE-2	
    	Don't forget to test the GFI monthly. They tend to go
    bad quicker (wont trip) if installed outside and not tested properly.
    The importance here is when the heater goes bad it may ground out.
    If you dog goes to get a drink after it has grounded out, your dog
    would stand the risk of electrocution.
    
    	Remember with a heating ground it will probably happen
    in the middle of the element. This will not trip on a standard branch
    circuit.

    
    				CB

    The caution to use an electrican is probably to legally cover the
    manufacturer that they warned you to properly install a GFIC outdoor
    outlet and recommending a "professional" to perform the work serves to
    strengthen their position about offering the most likely correct way to
    fix potential problems.
    

    I've done a number of outlet upgrades in two different houses,
    experiencing several different wiring technologies....
    
    
    - NOTE: If a 3 light tester only lights ONE light, then the outlet is
    not grounded and the indication is not to be trusted.
    
    You have to mentally dissect these testers to understand... 
    It's basicly three two prong testers;
    
    		[hot]---(green)---[neutral]
    		   \		    /
    		  (green)	(red)
    			\	/
    			 [ground]
    
    If there is no ground connected (eg: only the hot-neut green lights)
    then you cannot detect a reversed hot-neutral situation  (because
    the neutral-gnd light cannot work.
    
    When useing one of these on a two prong outlet, make sure that a
    three prong adapter is used and another light comes on when you touch
    the grounding lug to the cover screw.
    
    This got me in my rental house, where the landlord has self upgraded
    many outlets, didn't use grounds, and got them consistently WRONG.
    
    I've since learned how to quickly use a two prong tester  (they're 
    cheaper to buy when you cannot find your others)
    
    
    - RE Testing for Ground:
    
    I've seen false ground indications when a number of grounds are
    connected to several outlets but not tied back to a real ground.
    (eg: a floating ground circuit)
    You have to be careful when testing to make sure all appliances are
    unplugged.  They might provide a ground path through themselves.
    
    In my experience, a floating ground will show a "dim" indication on the
    neon bulb. (this is easier to see on a two prong tester)  As opposed
    to the "bright" indication you will get from hot-to-neutral.
    
    - BTW: when testing a three prong from the outside  (or a two prong
    polarized) the Hot prong is the smaller slot.  The Neutral the larger.
    
    	Dave.

    Not the absolute _best_ method, but much better than a neon bulb
    that fires at who-knows-exactly-what voltage, is a meter.
    
    If you can't easily physically trace each branch here's what to do:
    
    Get a VOM with at least 5Kohms/volt on the AC scales.  A Radio Shack
    cheapie should work.  With the meter on the 120 VAC scale, probe 
    between the grounded (large slot) and grounding (screw or U-ground slot). 
    There should be no measureable voltage.
    
    With the meter still connected to the same two terminals, start
    dropping the AC range down.  Somewhere around the 0-3 volt scale
    you should get a reading.  It should _not_ be more than 0.25 to 0.3
    volts AC to indicate a good ground continuity and a properly bonded
    service panel.  Remember, hot (black) goes to copper (the small
    slot in the outlet); neutral, or grounded (sic) to white (the longer
    slot).  The green wire is called grounding (sic), if you have it and
    it's either the screw or the roundish hole on the wiring device.
    
    Remember, this method doesn't prove everything but can certainly help
    you interpret results better than an idiot bulb.
    
    Erick
                                                                    

This note has the right title, but the wrong end of the subject matter, so 
bear with me.

The Digital Electricity Police are complaining about my incandescant lamp
being "non-grounded or not double insulated".  How can I take a conventional
1930s, non-polarized household lamp and rewire it such that it will be either 
grounded or double-insulated?  

I have a feeling that they want to see a three-prong plug on there because 
the ticket they issued complains of a "two-wire lamp".  

    Re: .13
    
    You can't in a manner that will satisfy the DEP.  However you might
    ask them if using a plug-in GFCI will satisfy their fears.  (Probably
    not.)
    
    				Steve

Do ungrounded appliances present a fire hazard, or are the DEC Elec cops
worried that Tom will electrocute himself?  Are grounded lamps even *made*?
I bought a new floor lamp about 3 years ago, and it just had a polarized
plug.

                This sounds rather strange to me. I've been with DEC for
        over 16 years and have had numerous lamps supplied to me by DEC
        including the one now lighting my desk. NOT ONE OF THEM HAS BEEN
        GROUNDED! As for double insulated - I can't tell. Most have had
        at least part of the casing metal.
                
                /s/     Bob

    You could get a 3-wire cord and plug and attach the ground wire
    to the metal of the lamp body, I suppose...but like the others
    have said, this seems pretty silly.  I've got an incandescent
    desk light here with a 2-wire cord, and nobody has ever complained
    about it.  I don't think any of my lights at home have 3-wire
    cords.

I believe that the "DEP" are insisting that certain OSHA rules be followed
for electrical devices in offices.  I had them complain about the coffee
mug warmer plate I had (though I'd agree that this could indeed become a
fire hazard, that wasn't what troubled them.)

All of the appliances in my office, including the desk lamps, are grounded.

What I would suggest doing is asking what specific regulation needs to be
adhered to, and ask to take a look at it.  You may be able to find a
solution.

				Steve

Steve, I followed your suggestion and asked what regulation they were applying.
They went back, studied up on it, and DECIDED TO CHANGE THE RULE!

They've determined that all I need to do is replace the plug with a polarized
plug and I'll be in compliance.  So now my question is, which wire gets the 
fat side of the plug and how do I identify it?

I'd rather do this in my office.  I can borrow a VOM, if that's what I need, 
but I've never used one before.

    You want the "hot" lead of the cord to be the center terminal of
    the bulb socket.  I don't know which prong of a polarized plug
    is "hot", but you can figure that out with a VOM at the outlet.

    Like a U.S. grounding plug, the narrow blade is "hot" and the
    wide blade is "neutral".

    
    FYI, here in the U.S.A. the wires are like this:
    
    	"Hot" = black = short blade slot
    
    	Neutral = white = long blade slot
    
    	Ground = green = "D" shaped slot
    
    				Joe

Is there a standard orientation for the outlet?  Or maybe one called for by 
the code?

It seems that all the outlets in my house are oriented so that any device that 
has an angled plug (one that lets the cord be parallel to the wall instead of 
perpendicular), gets plugged in with the cord going up the wall instead of
down (all except the outlet in by bedroom that I use for the ac... that goes 
down... but of course that cord goes up to the ac!).

Re: .23

The code doesn't, that I have seen, specify which way the outlet should
be aligned.  I have always favored having the grounding pin on the bottom.

			Steve

    RE: .23

    I've heard (but cannot confirm) that it was code (at least for
    commercial buildings) for the Ground hole to be up.  Theory being that
    if the plug isn't in all the way, if something is dropped across the
    exposed plug, it would hit the ground lug first instead of shorting out
    across Hot and Neutral.

    I've noticed this to be true in just about any building I've gone into.

    -Bob

Guess I'll have to look it up when I get home...

		Steve

    .last several:
    
    That may well be the case in commercial buildings, but I cannot
    remember seeing the ground pin on top in any of the residences I have
    been in (at least, not in the past 8 or 10 years...)
    
    Dick

    	I would think that having the ground prong down would be most safe:
    The plug tends to rotate downward due to gravity/cord weight. If the
    ground were above the power prongs, you could lose ground and still
    have power. If the ground were below, you would loose power before
    losing ground.  I think the plug tilting failure mode is a lot more
    common than dropping stuff from above, landing on the exposed prongs.
    	- Chris

I pored through my copy of the 1990 NEC last night, and found no reference
whatsoever as to the desired orientation of the outlet.  It merely said that
the plug and outlet must be designed so that the ground connection was made
first and broken last.

However, I've been told that the Massachusetts code wants (but does not
require) the grounding pin to be on the bottom.

The question of which way it goes if the outlet is mounted sideways is
also of interest....

				Steve

    re: last couple
    
    I've been told by a fairly reliable source that the ground plug was to
    be up to meet mass code.  It may not be code yet but inspectors
    apparently feel it will.
    
    The idea is that anything dropped on a loose plug will hit the ground
    first and then short if it's flexible enough to hit both.
    
    As far as the loose plug leaning out of the wall in .28, the ground
    connector is long enough to maintain contact in the majority of cases
    so that the ground is connection is made first and broken last as Steve
    noted in the .29
    
    I'll see if I can get more datail from this guy tonight.

    How come 18 months ago? The Code changes come every 3 yrs with the
    most current being Jan 1 1990.
    
    	I am not sure what the Mass. code requires and I can't look it
    up right now because I don't have a current Mass. book, but I do know that
    ground pin orientation is not mandated in the NEC. The only time
    the pin orientation is shown in a consistent manner is on the 
    NEMA charts and drawings for wiring devices. Which shows the NEMA
    5-15R and all of the U-ground type devices with the ground blade
    up.
    	I suppose if you wanted to follow the code to the letter you
    would have to install the device as shown in the drawings and prints.
    The NEC covers this by requiring the listed or labeled equipment
    to be installed in accordance with any instuctions included in the
    listing or labeling. ARTICLE 110-3(b)of the 1990 NEC and previous
    issues also. In 15 years I have not had an inspector even comment
    on the orientation of the wiring device, and I have worked in
    a variety of states, counties, boroughs etc around the country.
    	
    	Just another electricians point of view	:")
    
    	Regards,
    	
    	PL 
    
    	

    It's been my observation that on most outlets if the manufacturer's
    name or trademark is oriented to be read, that the ground socket
    is down.
    
    	Dave.

    I have a sump pump whose plug orientation makes it awkward in an outlet
    with the ground up. The wire leaving the plug is not parallel to the
    floor, ie horizontal. The wire leaves the plug paralell to the wall. So
    to put this in an outlet with the ground up, the wire would exit the
    plug toward the ceiling. Doesn't feel right, and if there is an
    appliance where you would want a correct ground it might be a
    submersible sump pump. 
    
    Pump is about 6 years old, maybe the new ones are different.
    
    Steve

    
    I have the same types of plugs ... the cord goes up toward the ceiling.
    
    What we are seeing here is a very disconcerted effort to establish a
    standard where one does not exist by a few.  Even though there is a
    defacto standard with the opposite orientation i.e. the sump pump plug
    and outlets with lettering assuming the ground plug is on the bottom.
    
    I'm not agreeing with either orientation - only relaying what I heard
    from a reasonably reliable source.  This guy is a building manager type
    who has had to deal with many mass inspectors as the buildings have
    come on-line.  er, office buildings that is.

  I'd like to see a standard if for no other reason than the one which
  prompted this discussion: certain plugs end up pushing their wires up
  the wall. Unfortunately, we have appliances with plugs that go both
  ways, so even if I oriented all of our receptacles the same way, it
  wouldn't solve the problem. I've actually re-oriented a couple of
  receptacles (when it was convenient to) to make the wire run down to
  the floor.

      I  have  seen  cords  and/or  extension cords for AIR CONDITIONERS
      which indicate on the box or accompanying literature that they are
      designed  so that the cord angles UP from the outlet.  (Reasonably
      idea, since air conditioners are usually above the outlet!)  These
      plugs work when the ground prong is DOWN.
      
      I  believe that in general cords for home use either come straight
      out or angle DOWN when the ground prong is down.  On the other had
      a  partial  survey  here  at  ZKO3 found ALL plugs with the ground
      prong UP, except for those in a horizontal orientation.  
      
      These horizontal plugs had the ground prong to the left. Obviously
      this is so that a bare wire coming from the left will  strike  the
      ground  prong first.  The conservative right would never do such a
      ridiculous thing, but you can't trust the liberal left!

      Seriously,  this  is the type of thing that causes people to loose
      respect for the code -- or maybe for Massachusets.   This  is  sad
      because  most  of the rules contained in the NEC are important and
      do work to make things safer.

    All this reminds me of the VR290 I have in my office, which I inherited
    with a line cord with a right-angled "jack" to connect to the VR290...
    which made the cord run UP... (I eventually found a more suitable
    replacement.)
    
    Dick
    P.S.  Outlets in "real" walls here in MR4 have the ground pin on the
    bottom, too (so that's one commercial building).
    

As I mentioned elsewhere in this conference, many of the older outlets here
in the Mill are dual boxes, with 2 pairs of outlets.  One of the duplex
outlets is installed with the ground pin up, the other, down, so you get to
pick and choose.

However, the new 'clean' power recepticles they recently installed have only
one duplex outlet (despite being a double box), with the ground pin up.

-Mike

	Don't know about the GFI's in your homes but those in mine
all have the ground at the bottom.  Since the GFI's are such that the
orientation of the outlet can't be changed, I suggest 	| |
                                                         .

is acceptable in MASS, whre I live, and is believed to be either the
most convenient arrangement, best arrangement, easiest arrangement from
the manufacturing/assembly persepctive of the manufacturer, or just the
way some IE designed them because they had to be designed.

Douglas

Re: .40

Why can't you change the orientation of a GFI?  Though they look the best
with the ground pin down, some are designed to look ok either way (or sideways).

			Steve

Re: .41

<Why can't you change the orientation of a GFI?  Though they look the best
<with the ground pin down, some are designed to look ok either way 

	Don't know about the GFI's in your home but those in mine:

	.  have writing on the top where the test button is (dictating
	   orientation to me - don't believe writing is suppose to
	   be upside down or on its side)

	.  have the outlet built in - the outlet can't, in and of itself,
	   be reorientated

Douglas

    
    	Some GFI brands have the TEST and RESET written both ways so
    that it does not matter which way you install it.
    
    PL

How many angels can dance on the head of a ground pin?

Re: .44

None - The NEC requires permanent grounding for dance hall environments. :-)

				Steve

        Does anyone have information about brands of incandescent bulbs
    which work best when the voltage is below 120 volts?  We have re-
    placed the outside wire, meter box, and installed new circuit breakers
    inside the house.  The electric company has checked their connections
    and our ground without finding anything wrong.  When they test the
    voltage in the circuit breaker box, it is 117 or 118 volts - never 120
    which is best for incandescent bulbs.  Our lights appear a little dim
    and have a yellowish glare throughout the house.  Other neighbors have
    the same problem but haven't complained to the electric company.  Their
    customer service representative said they have to supply customers with
    at least 114 volts (it's a Massachusetts law) and they are complying.
       We've used Sylvania and GE soft-white bulbs.  We don't have dimmers
    and can't switch to higher voltages.  Any suggestions?
    
    Mary
    
    

    
    Next higher wattage bulb?
    
    Flourescent replacements?

>                   <<< Note 2915.35 by TOPDOC::MACDOUGALL >>>
>    voltage in the circuit breaker box, it is 117 or 118 volts - never 120
>    which is best for incandescent bulbs.  Our lights appear a little dim
>    and have a yellowish glare throughout the house. 
    
    I really doubt that you'd be able to notice a difference in light
    intensity from the same bulb running at 2 or 3 volts higher.  More
    likely it's the type of bulbs you're using -  are they "soft white"?
    
    FWIW, I've had good luck with the brightness and longevity of Philips
    light bulbs.  And, BJ's Wholesale Club (Westboro MA, Salem NH, + several 
    other locations) carries them at very reasonable prices.
    
    /Don

    Low voltage should ADD life to your bulbs, not blow them faster. I use
    GE clear bulbs in most of my fixtures, I like the effect.
    Sandy
    

re .35:

117V-118V is "normal", not a problem.  120V is the high end of the normal
range, anything above 120V is considered excessive.

It is the nature of the beast for normal incandescent bulbs to be a little
yellowish.  They do have halogen incandescents which are whiter, and, of
course, fluorescents.

-Mike

                Actually the "nominal" line voltage has changed over the
        years. It is now (at least in this part of the country) 120V +/-
        5% which makes the normal range 114 to 126vac. 
                
                It's interesting looking at older appliances to find
        that the nominal voltage has changed from 110 to 115 to 117 to
        120 over the last 25 years. 
                
                /s/     Bob

    
    
    
    	I am wiring 2 new bedrooms in a basement.  The rooms are framed
    and next comes the drywall...
    
    Instead of installing a light on the ceiling I decided to wire a 
    receptical (outlet/plug) to a light switch.  Just like a lot of
    new houses use an outlet to plug a lamp into which is controlled
    by a wall switch.
    
    
    Typically new houses have the top part of the duplex outlet connected
    to the wall switch and the bottom part of the outlet continously
    live.  I decided to dedicate one duplex outlet to the switch, hoping
    that wiring it would be easier.
    
    I tried a couple variations and haven't had any luck.  At the moment
    I have the power source coming in to the outlet.  I would rather keep
    it that way, but if I have to bring it into the switch I can drill
    a couple more holes in the 2x4's....;'((((
    
    Do I need to you 12-3 wire ???  
    
    Can someone complete the following diagram, with labeled wires please:
    
                               
    		    Outlet			switch
 Power source
       |
       V	     ___
     		    /   \                      _____
  ______________   |  O  |                     |   |
B --------------    \   /                      | | |
    	 	    /   \                      | | |     		  
  ______________   |  O  |                     |   |
W ______________    \___/                      -----
 

    2-conductor wire is sufficient.
    
    Run a length of xx-2 wire from outlet box to switch box.  Connect
    the WHITE wire from SOURCE to the WHITE terminal on outlet.
    
    Connect the BLACK wire from SOURCE to the WHITE wire leading to
    the switch box.  Mark this white wire, either with a black or blue
    magic marker, or a strip of electrical tape, to indicate it is an
    "identified" conductor.  Connect the BLACK wire leading from the
    switch box to the BLACK terminal on outlet.
    
    At the switch, connect the two wires to the switch terminals (either
    wire to either terminal).  Mark the WHITE wire as noted above.
    
    Tie the bare grounding wires together at the outlet and connect to
    the green screw (use a "greenie" or some similar type of wire nut
    so you only have ONE bare wire under the green screw).  Connect the
    single bare grounding wire at the switch to the green screw.  (If
    you are using metal boxes you'll have to also run a jumper from the
    bare grounding wires to the metal box.)
    

    What you need to do is run 14/2 from the receptacle box to the switch.
    At the receptacle tie the black wire (power feed) to the white 14 GA going 
    to the switch. Connect the white wire (power return) to the silver screw 
    on the receptacle. The 14 GA black wire heading to the switch gets
    connected to the brass screw on the receptacle. Connect  the black wire
    at the switch end to one screw and the white wire to the other. The ground 
    wire (bare copper) is tied to the green screw at the switch and connected 
    the receptacle end to the all the other ground wires at the receptacle box.
    
    This will severely limit the layout of the room I'd go for wiring the
    top half of all the receptacles. All the different is you run 14/3 and 
    break the little shorting bar connecting the 2 brass screws together.
    Top screw gets the red wire and the bottom one gets the black. Switch
    the power to red wires at the receptacle box closed to the switch. The
    receptacle box size will have to accommodate 13 or 14 wires depending if
    its metal or plastic  3/red, 3/black, 3/white, 3or4/ground and
    1/receptacl.  
    
    See if this makes any sense, Sorry about the box size but it's been
    awhile. I know the plastic boxes have the numbers stamped right on them
    something like 12/7  14/10  first number=(wire gage), second number =
    (max. num. of connections).
    
    Good luck and please get your work inspected.
    
    /Jim 

    Slight divergence here from the original question, but in reference 
    to .2's idea about wiring each outlet of a duplex receptacle on a 
    separate circuit, it occurred to me the other day that one would 
    therefore have to switch *two* circuit breakers to kill the power 
    to a given outlet.  No problem as long as one knows about it, but
    it could be a nasty surprise to somebody who didn't know...plug in
    light, flip circuit breakers until it goes out, begin to take outlet
    apart...ZAP!

Just an addition to the slight divergence that may be obvious,
but should be mentioned: A good way to have the top
outlet in your duplex receptables switched, and the lower ones
hot is to bring 2-wire romex to your switch from the breaker panel.
From there run 3-wire in series to all your outlets. At the switch box,
connect 2-w. black to 3-wire black *and* the switch. On the other side
of the switch connect the 3-wire red. Connect 2-wire white to 3-wire white.

At each outlet, use red for the top outlet, and black for the bottom.

Thus, avoiding the problem of .-1. Only one circuit is thus used, and
killing the power leaves no boxes with any hot wires.

I recently relocated from Europe (i.e. the Netherlands), and brought European
electrical equipment with me. The part of Europe I'm from has single-phase 
230V /50Hz as standard service, and three-phase 380V /50Hz as power service. 

I also brought a number of 120V/240V step-up transformers that enable me to run 
my 230V equipment from standard 120V outlets. Fortunately, most of my equipment
doesn't mind the 60Hz, nor the 230V-240V difference. 
The transformers do the job well, but are a bit awkward. They are heavy and 
noisy, and of course only provide 240V service where they are located.

The home I bought has two-phase 240V /60Hz service (i.e. 120V on either side of
neutral). 

Now the first question:

In order to get rid of the step-up transformers, I like to wire up some 
European-style electrical outlets using the 240V service. Is there a way
I can do that without violating the NEC? 
The equipment I'm talking about is a vacuum cleaner, a stereo, a home 
computer, etc., so not really stuff that takes a lot of electrical power.
European 230V outlets are totally different from their U.S. 120V counterparts,
so there is no way somebody could accidentally plug in a 120V appliance in 
a 230V outlet, or vice versa.

Second question:

I also brought a European 230V washer and dryer. I can't run these appliances
from a step-up transformer because they take too much power. Both washer and
dryer take about 3200W.
I have hooked up the washer and dryer as follows. I have connected a main 
switch to the dryer outlet in the laundry room. The main switch has 30A fuses
in both hot wires, and controls both the washer and the dryer. The circuit 
breaker in the panel that controls the dryer outlet is also 30A.
Even if they are working at the same time, the washer and dryer together 
don't take 30A (although they get close). So, overload is no problem.
Is this situation OK, as far as the NEC is concerned?

Your feedback is much appreciated!

Date  

    Since you are now in the US, forget the European receptacles.  They
    will be hard to find and useless to anyone else.  There are standard
    US (NEMA type 6-15R) receptacles and plugs (6-15P) rated 15 amps
    250 (ok for 240) volts, which are available in any hardware store.
    
    Installed on two pole breakers with normal US wiring techniques
    they meet all code requirements.  You can even using existing wiring
    if you change all receptacles and the breaker on that particular
    circuit (be sure you get *ALL* receptacles).  If you are unconfortable
    with this work, I suggest an electrician.
    
    Your washer outlet is a code violation.  A 15 amp circuit needs to
    be protected with 15 or 20 amp overcurrent protection.  You might
    be able to feed both from the wiring to your dryer, provided the
    connected rated load does not exceed the 30 amps.  The washer however
    would need to be fed through a small box with a 240 volt two pole
    15 amp breaker.

I'm not sure I understand exactly *why* my washer outlet is a code violating?
If my washer outlet violates code, then I guess my dryer outlet is also a
code violation, since bother washer and dryer both run from the main switch,
and are both protected by one pair of 30 amp fuses?

Does the NEC say that *every* connected 240V appliance needs to have its own 
two-pole circuit breaker?

I guess what I have to do is installing a subpanel in the laundry that is fed
from the dryer outlet, and has two two-pole 15 or 20 amp circuit breakers.

Date

    The code problems would be clauses 210-20 and 210-21 in the national
    electric code, requiring the receptacles and wiring to have ampere     
    ratings not less than that of the branch circuit.  In this case,    
    with a 30 amp circuit, I suspect you are not using receptacles and  
    flexible cord to the washer rated 30 amps (unlike the dryer).  If you 
    are using 15 or 20 amp receptacles you must protect them at no more 
    than 20 amps.  The 30 amp circuit will also do a poor job of
    protecting the washer against motor overloads or burnouts.

I have wired the washer and dryer directly to the main switch. The flexible
cord I've used is rated at 16 amps. Both washer and dryer have internal 16 amp
fuses to protect them against overload. I have no receptacles wired from the
main switch.

I see your point. I will replace the main switch with a subpanel, and wire
the washer and dryer to 15 amp circuit breakers. I will feed the subpanel
from the dryer outlet using a standard dryer cable. I guess then I'm OK as
far as the NEC is concerned. 

Thanks a lot for your response! Very helpful!

Date

  We've added several 240V 20A circuits to our house wiring (in kitchen,
  living room and family room) exactly for plugging in European
  appliances. We used standard 20A 2-hot-plus-gnd NEMA receptacles (no
  neutral), and wired the circuits with 12-2+gnd. This is all strictly
  to code, and works fine. Using the NEMA 4-pin receptacle would've
  provided the extra flexibility to use those sockets for 120V
  appliances, as well, but I didn't think that was necessary, and
  would've cost the price of 12-3+gnd.

  Now, so as not to have to replace the European plugs on the
  appliances, a bit of foresight was necessary: before we left Europe,
  we bought several heavy-duty extension socket strips. I replaced the
  plugs on those with the NEMA plugs and everything's fine. We run hifi,
  kitchen appliances, sewing machines, u-name-it. All the appliances are
  fine on 60Hz (and, in fact, are so rated). And, of course, we have the
  benefit of more than one socket available at each outlet.

  The only bad part was that these circuits (3 of them) each take up two
  poles on the service panel. We're flat out of slots on our 100A panel,
  and have even had to use a couple of slim-line breakers, too. Perhaps
  a sub-panel would have been a good idea, but I just dislike sub-panels
  for some reason. The better (and more $$) solution would be to upgrade
  to a nice big 200A panel.

Re: 5

I think wiring extra 240V 20A circuits is a good idea. I brought European
240V receptacles for this purpose, but I think I will use the NEMA receptacles
instead, so everything will be according to code. One could argue that the
European receptacles are safer (they are recessed, so one cannot touch live
wires when plugging in appliances), but I rather have my installation according
to the NEC. 

You're right about the extension strips! I brought some as well, and I wouldn't
know what to do without them!

Since at the time I didn't know where I would be living in the U.S., 
I shipped 120V/240V step-up transformers when I left Europe. (Originally those
were 240V/120V step-down transformers to run U.S. appliances in Europe. I
converted them into step-up transformers). The home I bought has a fat 200A
two-phase 120V service, so wiring the extra 240V circuits should be no
problem, and an excellent way to run my European appliances!

About the 60Hz: most European equipment doesn't the 60Hz. However, I made the
mistake of shipping European clock radio's. The radio part of it works fine,
but the clock is 20% fast! Probably the best use is to get rid of boring guests:
"gee, time really flies!".

Hi,
	I have a condo and all the outlets have two prongs, no ground prongs.
The place is pretty old maybe 30 years, I do not know if the wiring has
ever been touched. I would like to put in the three prong outlets, because I 
hate using adapters all the time. In a two prong outlet, what do they do with 
the ground? groud to the box? and do I just have to put the new outlet in 
and connect the ground to the outlet? Any help would be apreciated.
		Thanks
		Bob

    
    some parts of my house are the same, and the generally there isn't even
    a ground wire!
    
    so when I turn my attention to redoing the sockets I'm going to need to
    re-run new cable. Conduit? whats a conduit? 8-{
    
    simon

Notes 1980 and 2412 have lots of replies on this subject.  I'm sure the
moderators will tell you so shortly.

				Steve

    use gfi outlet

    I have a question about the power strips with surge protection that you
    can buy for $15.00-20.00.  Do those strips have to be turned on (some
    have an on/off switch on the strip) in order for the components plugged
    into the strip to be protected against a sudden voltage surge?  Or, is
    the surge protection there for components plugged into the strip even
    when the strip is turned off?
    
    Thanks.
    
    Diana

Most of those strips just have one MOV across the hot and neutral lines.  The
on-off switch isolates the hot line, so I suppose the answer is that there is
no less protection with the switch off than there is with the switch on.  
Either way the equipment could get zapped by a spike between neutral and
ground.

			Steve

    
    
    I'd like to install an electrical outlet in a bedroom on a
    wall that separates the room from the bathroom. On the opposite
    side of the wall is the back wall of the tub.
    
    Does anyone know if there are any code restrictions in Mass.
    that do not allow an outlet to be placed between this type
    of wall?
    
    
                           Bathroom
    
    
                           tub
                    ===================  wall
                             |
                          outlet                            
    
                          bedroom             
                                   

I don't believe there is any code restriction on what can be on the
opposite side of a wall that contains an electrical outlet.  It's
worth checking to see if there are pipes in the way, of course.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    
    In fact, I have one just as you describe.
    

                      Explosive Proof Socket?
    
    
    I have just had a brick walk put in.  Toadd a bit of flair, we had a 
    fieldstone wall built in the middle of the walk.  The brick walk splits 
    apart, goes around the wall (shaped like a diamond), and then meets again 
    and continues to the end where it stops at the entrance to the gazebo.
    
    Before doing all the brick work, we did the wiring for lights,
    receptacles, sprinklers, etc.  We have 2 wires for lights, and one for a 
    receptacle inside of the wall.  We have yet to add lights or
    receptacles.
    
    The question is, is it possible to bury the receptacle (outdoor one of
    course), and when needed, move a little dirt to get to the it?
    
    Is it acceptable to use an explosion proof receptacle, and bury that in
    the ground, if a standard GFI outdoor receptacle is not OK?
    
    I would like to get away with the standard outdoor GFI receptacle for 2
    reasons:
    
    1.  Cost.  An explosion proof receptacle is 6-8 times the cost of the
    outdoor receptacle.
    
    2.  Size.  An explosion proof receptacle is about 4 times the size of
    the GFI receptacle.  
    
    Comments are welcomed.
    
    Rgds,
    
    Andy

    
    The question is, is it possible to bury the receptacle (outdoor one of
    course), and when needed, move a little dirt to get to the it?
    
>>    Is it acceptable to use an explosion proof receptacle, and bury that in
>>    the ground, if a standard GFI outdoor receptacle is not OK?
  
	Regardless of whatever method you use to mount or contain the receptacle
	it will still have to be protected by a GFI device of some sort. If it
	is for general use outside of a residence.

	Explosion proof devices are not necessarily designed for direct
	burial or for that matter wet locations. Investigate the particular	
	product thoroughly before simply deciding to use explosion proof 
	items in that environment. (BTW there is more than one class of
	explosion proof devices class 1, 2, 3 all are designed differently)  
  
>>    I would like to get away with the standard outdoor GFI receptacle for 2
>>    reasons:
    
>>    1.  Cost.  An explosion proof receptacle is 6-8 times the cost of the
>>    outdoor receptacle.
    
>>    2.  Size.  An explosion proof receptacle is about 4 times the size of
>>    the GFI receptacle.  
    
>>    Comments are welcomed.



	Try this:

			Buy a PVC hand-hole like the type used for sprinkler
	systems and utility power connections. They come in diff. sizes. 
	Mount a standard wet location box & receptacle cover in it and when you
	need the receptacle you just pop the cover off of the hand hole and
	use the receptacle. I've seen the hand holes at Builders Square.
				
		I would protect the line with a GFI device located inside
	out of the weather. They just don't do well outside in the damp. You
	could use a breaker(expensive) or an in-line GFI(cheaper) receptacle 
	mounted somewhere in the circuit inside where its dry.  
		
		Of course be sure that the location you install this does 
	not allow the hand hole to fill up with water and submerse the 
	receptacle. 
		

    We have several electric outlets that are controlled by an equal
    number of wall switches thoughout our house.  Unfortunately, each 
    switch controls both outlets (of an outlet pair).  How do I unswitch 
    one outlet of a pair?
    
    Thanks
    -Phil

    RE: .0
    
    Remove the little jumper wire that connects the outlets together. Then,
    wire the open outlet to your new unswitched line.
    
    
    Marc H.

    
>    Remove the little jumper wire that connects the outlets together. Then,
sounds simple

>    wire the open outlet to your new unswitched line.
there are other outlets in the room that are unswitched.  
I could wire the open outlet to that line?    
When I expose the switched outlet, will the other unswitched line be visible?

    
-Phil

Whether or not you can do this depends on how the outlet is wired.  If the
unswitched feed comes into the outlet box, and the hot lead goes off to the
switch and comes back to connect to the outlet, then you can break the 
jumper lug on the hot side and hook it up to the hot feed.  But if it's
like most cases where the feed comes into the switch and only the switched
feed goes to the outlet, it's much harder.  I don't think you can "legally"
hook one part of the outlet to one circuit and another part to another
circuit.  I'm even doubtful that you can run a feed from another outlet on
the SAME circuit and hook up only one half of the outlet; at the least, you
wouldn't be allowed to hook the grounds together, I don't think.

If you're lucky, the hot feed comes into the outlet box, and it's easy.  
Otherwise, you're probably out of luck.

			Steve

    RE:
    .3
    
    It can be done legally. No problem.Why couldn't it?
    
    Marc H.

I'd be concerned about ground loops and varying potentials between circuits.

		Steve

>     <<< Note 4839.3 by QUARK::LIONEL "Free advice is worth every cent" >>>
>I'm even doubtful that you can run a feed from another outlet on
>the SAME circuit and hook up only one half of the outlet; at the least, you
>wouldn't be allowed to hook the grounds together, I don't think.
    
    Sure you can (at least in MA).  I have two rooms (family room and
    living room) wired like this, to make it easier to switch endtable
    lamps as you enter and leave the room.  The electrician who wired my
    house recommended this.  Nothing worse than fumbling around in the
    dark, tripping over the kids toys, trying to get to the switch on the
    light.  The inspector just checked it all out last night, was happy,
    and signed off the permit.
    
    /Don
    

I didn't say you couldn't have half switched, half unswitched.  I wondered
about having the two portions on separate circuits.  Imagine your surprise
when you throw a breaker, the lamp goes out, but the other half is still
hot and you get a jolt.  

This is perhaps just my paranoia....

		Steve

    RE: .7
    
    I think you are overly concerned Steve. Sure, it can happen,but
    then again if a DIY'er thought about what "could" happen, he/she
    wouldn't.
    
    I would strongly recommend, though, that the same circuit that feeds
    the switched side, should also feed the un-switched.
    
    I have many in my house wired this way. Works great in a bedroom
    to have the light on the switched and the clock on the un-switched.
    
    Marc H.

    RE .7, yes, you have a point.  Mine are on the same circuit.  Don't
    know if that's a requirement, but it does sound like a good idea.

When I built my house, I wanted to wire the outlets in the kitchen with the
top and bottom halves on separate circuits to help prevent overloading.  The
inspector recommended I do this but he required that the circuit breakers be
tied together so they would both be tripped at the same time.  Since I decided
to only run one neutral for both circuits, the two circuits had to be taken 
from diferent poles.  All of the above was accomplished by using a normal
240v breaker.

Tom

    RE: .10
    
    With 20 amp lines, what are you pluging in that takes that much?
    
    Just curious
    
    Marc H.

4 slice toaster,
Electric griddle
Coffee Pot
Microwave

That is probably the max load at breakfast.

I belive the code requries all Kitchen recepticals to be 20A.  Its been that
way for several years.  I'm not sure if they changed the code to require all to
be GFI'ed (they were thinking about it) but last I knew it was within 6' of 
sink/water (excluding dishwasher, but that is usually right next to a sink
anyway).

bjm

    RE: .-1
    
    Code requires that the CIRCUIT be 20A.  Within 6' of the sink the
    outlets should be GFI protected as well.  Typically, you will see
    either a 20A GFI breaker for the kitchen or individual GFI outlets.
    
    Dan

Code also requires: No more than 48 inches between outlets on a continuous
stretch of counter, at least two "small appliance" circuits that serve
counters with nothing else on them except a clock.  A microwave ought to be
on its own circuit.

			Steve

> ...at least two "small appliance" circuits that serve
>   counters with nothing else on them except a clock.

      According  to my understanding, the circuit described in .10 meets
      this requirement  for  "two  small  appliance"  circuits.   Again,
      according to my understanding a "small alliance" circuit is just a
      20A circuit that feeds nothing except outlets.  (Maybe a clock  is
      an exception.)  

>    A microwave ought to be on its own circuit.
      
      An  interesting  comment.   There  are certainly an awfully lot of
      microwave ovens plugged into shared circuits in kitchens all  over
      America and probably beyond.  Certainly built-in units should have
      their own circuit.  Its hard for me to  see  that  this  would  be
      necessary form smaller, counter-top units. The larger size counter
      top units may be a gray area.  The way they're sold  it  ic  clear
      that they will be used on shared circuits.

>    A microwave ought to be on its own circuit.
      
	I would think so too or at least on the 20 amp small apliance
	circuit.  I just finished installing a over-the-stove
	unit.  I took out the existing light/fan and used the line that
	it was on.  When trying to determine which circuit that it was 
	connected to,  I found out that it was on the "1st floor overhead
	lighting" circuit.  On that circuit is also the stove (Gas).
	It should be sufficient since, there's only a bunch of 60 watt
	bulbs for all the overhead lights.
	
	Garry
	
	

The instructions that came with my full-size microwave said that it should be
on its own circuit.  In my view, any appliance that is used in a fixed location
and draws over 10 amps should be on its own circuit.  But I realize that most
people plug microwaves into shared circuits.

				Steve

    Technically my microwave is not on it's own circuit since due to space
    (or lack thereof) my toaster plugs into the same outlet.
    
    In practice it is on it's own circuit since the toaster and microwave
    will not operate at the same time.

OK, home electricians. I'm stumped!

I have had a pool filter plugged in to an outlet that I installed, no
problems at all for years, until this morning. I checked the outlet
and I have 110v on the correct wire, everything's connected per stds,
but the filter won't run.

However, the filter will run if I plug it into an extension cord! The
main differences that I know of are (1) the extension cord doesn't
have a proper ground, and (2) the outlet I installed is downstream
from a GRCI plug.

Any ideas on how to TS this?

Pete

The plug is likely not making contact with the conductors in the outlet -
you may want to try replacing the outlet with one of a "higher grade" to
see if that helps.

				Steve

    
    
    why dont you "reset" the gfci plug...

I traced problems all the way back to the GFCI outlet, so I replaced
*it* and now all's well.

Not much of a safety device, IMO, if it can fail shut, that is,
leaving 100v supplied downstream. I have never liked them anyway.

Pete

    Hm. Interesting. When we bought the house we're living in now (about 2
    years ago) I noticed that there was some black staining around the edge
    of the wallplate of one of the kitchen GFI's; plugged my GFI tester in
    and sure enough it had failed closed. Took it apart after I replaced it
    and it was a huge mess inside; I don't know what happened to it but it
    sure must have been exciting..
    
    ...tom

GFIs can and do fail, which is why you are supposed to test them monthly
(but almost no one does.)  (You're also supposed to flip circuit breakers
off and on yearly, as they too can "fail shut".)

				Steve

So what test should be done? To see if the the 'test' button causes
the 'reset' button to pop out? Or to see if the 'reset' button stays
in when depressed after having popped out? What does any of this tell
you?

The evidence leads me to believe that these things don't work as
advertised and might lead to dangerous complacency. I think it's all a
crock, same as lightbulb life reduction.

Pete

<So what test should be done? To see if the the 'test' button causes
<the 'reset' button to pop out? Or to see if the 'reset' button stays
<in when depressed after having popped out? What does any of this tell
<you?

    Go to your favorite hardware store & spend $25 on a GFI tester. This little
gadget allows 5ma leak across the appropriate leads (hot??? to ground???) and 
should cause the GFI breaker to trip...  If it don't trip, then it's broke..... 

Al

GFCI's when used in accordance with the manufacturers instructions save lives.
The instructions say you have to test them every so often. If you don't do the
test then you leave yourself wide open to the situation you recently had.

Just like the previous noter mentioned, you can buy a tool to test them or you
can use the little button on the GFCI device itself. They both do the same thing.

re back a couple of replies: That GFCI that was smoked, probable cause was some
kind of surge induced on the line. Most likely one of the following; lightning, 
wind damage to the powerlines, car hitting a pole somewhere etc. GFCI receptacles
for whatever reason don't handle these impulses too well. The small impulses will
trip them the big ones smoke'em and at the same time nothing else in the house
seems affected. I replace a lot of them this time of the year.

(I suspect it won't be too many years into the future when the NEC requires that
all branch circuits for lighting and convenience outlets in residences are 
required to be protected by GFCI.)  

My point is that I did test it, repeatedly, and it seemed to pass. It
seems as if such a device should be designed to fail open, not shut.

Pete

>>My point is that I did test it, repeatedly, and it seemed to pass. It
>>seems as if such a device should be designed to fail open, not shut.

They are designed to fail open, but if a short takes place they may be stuck
shut - that is why they say they should be tested monthly.

bjm

In other words, they should be tested monthly, but the "test" button isn't
a sufficient test, since it doesn't show whether they are shorted open.
Right?

    You are supposed to plug a light or something into the outlet, push
    the button, and see if the light goes out.  If you have one of the
    special testers, you can try it in any outlet that is "downline"
    from the GFI to make sure that the protection extends.
    
    				Steve

	I've been doing a little bit of new wiring and have been
	using the blue plastic boxes due to their extremely low
	price.  While watching a recent episode of "This Old House"
	however I noticed the new wiring in the kitchen and the
	outlet boxes were the more expensive metal ones.

	Are there code requirements that dictate what can be used?  
	I'm assuming they wouldn't be selling the plastic boxes if
	they didn't meet code???

    note 1768 discusses the issue.
    
    my own preference is for metal because i want the circuit to trip if
    some wire comes loose inside the box. i just did an addition with
    6 new circuits... all with metal boxes.
    

> note 1768 discusses the issue.

	Thanks!  I searched on a couple of keys but somehow missed
	the existing topic!

    Trying to daignose how I killed 2 live outlets.
    
    In kitchen, plugged in heater to warm frozen pipes, then moved heater
    to next outlet along counter.  Suddenly a dead outlet--in fact 1st one
    eas now dead. Heater worked fine on another circuit.
    
    Everything elase on circuit was OK--refrig., light, no blown fuses.
    So I replaced both receptacles to no avail--still dead. All is
    side-wired, no GFCI.  Any thoughts about where problem lies?
    Thanks, Ernie

>    side-wired, no GFCI.  Any thoughts about where problem lies?
>    Thanks, Ernie

	   The junction box is probably in the ceiling light fixture box.
	You should use a meter to see if you are getting power there.

					Tim

    
    	My brother had a similar problem at his house.  turned out that
    outlet was wired into his second floor bathrooms GFI outlet... just
    pressing the reset button fixed everything.
    
    hope its that simple for you.
    -Brian
    

The answer to this may be in here but it's probably an easy one so I'll
just take a shot at it in this topic.....

I attempted to add a receptacle next to a workbench in my garage. I figured
I'd get the power from the double switch that controls the garage and basement
lights. 

One switch operates the garage lights and is connected to another switch
at the other end of the garage. I used this switch. The other switch operates
the basement lights and is connected to another switch at the top of the
stairs. Both switchs have 12-3 wires connecting them.... Black, White, Red.

1st attempt.... (I used 14-2 wire to the receptacle, ~ 3 foot run)

I connected the white wire to the white switch post and the black wire to
the black switch post and twisted the ground wires together.

result...

When the switch is on, I get a dull glow from the receptacle on my tester
but not enough juice to light my work light.
When the switch is off, my work light will light but there is a dull glow
in the garage lights. If I turn off my work light the garage lights go out !
(Boy did I take alot of crap from the wife)

2nd attempt...

I changed the white wire to the red post.

result....

A dull glow from the tester with the switch on, no power when it's off.


Do I need to use 12-3 to the receptacle ??  Can someone tell me how to wire
this ???

thanks

Randy

You seem to have wired the outlet into the guts of a 3 way switch setup. You
need to wire the black to the outlet to unswitched "hot", and the white to
neutral.  They may not be available in the particular box you're using.  If you
don't know how to find them, best that you get someone who does to do it
(electrical fires are not fun) 

Also if the switch is using 12 gauge wire it's probably on a 20A breaker
or fuse.  If so, using 14 to the outlet is underrated, this can cause
trouble under the wrong conditions.

-Mike

    about 4289.5, Randy

      1st I am not an electrician, but here goes.


    Basically I think you are asking for trouble. Why ? Sounds like you
    are trying to tap into wiring for a multi way switch. It can be done
    but you should know what you are doing. Can the garage
    lights be turned on and off at more than one switch ?? If so
    be careful.

    The 14 gauge wiring definitely does not have anything to do with the
    your problem. But like Mike said, if breaker is 20AMP then used
    12 gauge wire.

    Do not randomly wire in multi way switches unless you know what you
    are doing. 


    ....basic multi wire diagram for load, I believe !

    from power          
    source

                   S1          w2            S2
          w1         ------------------------        w4    
    HOT ----------             w3               ----------------------+
                     ------------------------                         |
                                                                    garage
                                                         (load)   lightbulb
                               w5                                     |
    RETURN -----------------------------------------------------------+
 

    GRD  --------------------------------------------------------------GRD

    the 12-3 wire used because they need 4 wires running from switch to
    switch. 1 ground, 1 return, 2 switched hot, only 1 hot at a time

    w1 = hot wire from source, 115v always present here

    w2/w3 run between 2 multiway switches, at anyone time
          1 is hot, other is not, depending on switch
          positions

    w4   is hot when switches s1/s2 are in same position

    w5   is the return from the bulb

    If you are at the S1 end connected to power source the wiring should
    be straight forward. If at S2 end then you will have to
    have your plug outlet as a switched outlet only unless you can
    get access to another non switched hot wire. So your outlet will 
    probably only be on when garage lights are on. THe hot at S2 is really
    switched hot. 

    I do not know the color convention for these hook ups.

    If at switch end then you could determine what is what with a meter.
    Two of the wires on the switch will be switched power feeding the
    switch, one will be the switched power out of the switch to the load
    (bulb etc.), this is the one you want for hot to plug box (w4).

    The load output one will be the one that has power when garage light is on
    for """BOTH""" combinations of switch positions which keep the light
    ON. You have 4 switch combinations with two switches,
    UP/UP, UP/down, down/UP, down,down. Two combinations are off, two are
    on.

    The return line for your box must be hooked to a return, which I do
    not believe will be connected to the switch at all. Probably is
    twisted together with wire nut.

    I believe you affectively wired the new load in series with the
    garage lights which is not what you want to do.

    Unless you are comfortable figuring out then get someone who knows
    what they are doing.
    
    
    				Harold



    

Rereading .5 tells me the place is wired with the feed from the breaker box
going to either a junction box or the light's box, and the switches are off
12/3 single drops from this box to the switch boxes.  (is there only one 3
conductor (+ground) cable to the switch box?)  If so, there is no neutral in
the switch box, so you cannot use it to feed an outlet.  Run the cable for the
outlet from a different source (perhaps the junction box if nothing better)

-Mike

Thanks for the replies .....  I think .8 summed it up.

There is only the single wire into the switch, there is nothing tied
off in the box as mentioned earlier.

The whole garage is sheetrocked so this was the easiest place to get power
since it was right next to where I wanted the outlet.

I'll just have to run the wire from one of the outlets at the other end
of the garage and conceal it best I can, or I could take it from the
light box on the ceiling.

thanks again

Randy

    re:8
    
    	The neutral would be there but it would be in series with the light
    bulb. If the bulb blew, there would be no neutral. There would also be
    no consistant hot-wire if you were in box 2 as that would be determined by 
    the position of the other switch. I'm assuming something like the following 
    exists -
    			      -------            ------
    		box	     |	 orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrro    |
    	      --------       |	/    |		|  \   |
    bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbo     |		    oww|
     	     |	       |     |	 obbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbo   w|
    Feed     |         |     |       |		|     w|
    wwwwwwwwwwo light owwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww|
    	     |_________|     |_______|		|______|
    				box 1		  box 2
    
    	Legend: bbbbb = black wire
    		rrrrr = red wire
    		wwwww = white wire
    		o     = terminal
    
    		o
    		 \
    		  o   = 3-way switch
    		o
    
    	The reason that you got less power out of the plug is because no
    matter what you do in box 1 or 2, you'll have the voltage drop of the
    series connected light bulb through the neutral.
    
    	Ray

I'm about to wire a new house.  I'm considering putting outlets in two
(large, not huge: 3x8 foot) closets.  I can't imagine why anyone would
want an outlet in a closet, but it's so easy and cheap to add now that
I'm thinking of doing it.

Anyone have an opinion about the wisdom of doing this?

    Sure. You could have one of those new-fangled night lights in there
    (so there's always some light when you open it up), or you could
    have one of those heaters designed to retard mildew buildup, or you
    could hide in there with a TV when the in-laws drop in
    unexpectedly...

    You could store/charge a dust-buster or rechargable flashlight in
    there. 

    You could also set up a ironing board in there, ready to pull out
    into the room with the iron all set-up and ready to go. 

    Charly

>>want an outlet in a closet, but it's so easy and cheap to add now that
>>I'm thinking of doing it.

Building inspector in Merrimack NH said its against the code.  I can think of 
several reasons why it would cause a problem - mostly having to do with really
stupid people - but then again - the vast majority of changes to the code over
the past 10 years have been because someone, somewhere, did something really
stupid and the code what changed to protect the rest of the world from doing
the same thing (IMHO). 

Me, I have an outlet in one closet - because, in the future that closet will be
a hallway.  He mentioned it at the final inspection and I said, I'd remove it
and put a blank cover over it.

You could ask who ever is doing the electrical work to wire one in and blank it
off but I don't think they will be able to actually put an outlet in there
(unless of course the inspector does not agree with the rule and they anything
can happen !).

Brian J.

    
    Why not just put in conduit to a blanked-off box and leave a
    pull-through in the conduit?  That way, the box could be anything - 
    phone, cable, network or power.  After the final inspection sign
    off, you are free to do what you like.
    
    Colin
    

    If you have any possible reason for power anywhere, put the wires in
    now. It's a whole lot easier and cheaper than a retrofit!
    
    I've got a garage and basement that are without outlets, and it's going
    to be a real pain to run all the wires now....
    
    Sigh....
    
    

>    I've got a garage and basement that are without outlets, and it's going
>    to be a real pain to run all the wires now....

If the basements not finished, then it shouldn't be too bad.  If it is 
finished, well, why was it without outlets???

PeterT

>>    If you have any possible reason for power anywhere, put the wires in
>>    now. It's a whole lot easier and cheaper than a retrofit!

That is why .9 said "run conduit" (well EMT or some sort of pipe).  No snaking
of wires through insulated-filled walls - just pull the THHN through and hook
it up.  It will cost you a good deal more though.

bjm

    	One of the few things I've yet to do is install an outside outlet.
    I know about the GFI breaker and I've seen the normal outdoor boxes. My
    question is do they do anything special to mount the box to the outside
    of the house (i.e. gasket, caulking, etc.) ?
    
    	Ray

>    question is do they do anything special to mount the box to the outside
>    of the house (i.e. gasket, caulking, etc.) ?
    
	    Drill your hole from the inside.  Caulk the back of the 
	box and mount it to the wall.  Piece of cake.

					Tim

  We are planning to install brick veneer between our kitchen
cabinets and the counter and I have a question about the outlets
that are there.. The fake brick will build out the wall about 3/8"
thickness.  
   
    The house if 4 years old and has plastic boxes nailed to studs.. 

a) Is there some kind of box extenders available to bring the box out to 
   the "new" wall?  

b) buy another plastic box, and cut the 3/8" off the front and glue? it 
   to the existing box,
 
c) build out the outlet itself (with washers) to get the outlet flush with 
   the brick face..  (the outlet would not be fully in the box)

any ideas??

Thanks,
Dave
 

    Yes, there are extenders - available where you buy electrical boxes. 
    
    			Steve

  Thanks Steve,     I'll track some down..

Dave

It is my understanding that the code has an exception allowing boxes
to be recessed to allow for the reality of situations exactly like
this.  i.e. box mounted too deep in wall to allow for full thickness
of sheetrock/plaster/panelling etc.

The box extenders I've seen would be too thick for a mere 3/8".

Personally, if the outlet was secure -- not loose -- I would not worry
about the 3/8".  If it is loose, then that's a problems.

But since I'm not an electrician, a call to your local building inspector
might be in order.