Conference 7.286::home_work

    
    I've got setback thermostats from Sears that I bought a few years
    ago. My only complaint is that they are mechanically controlled,
    and as such only operate on one set of setback times (up to 3 high/low
    pairs per set). Many of the digital models allow multiple sets of
    setback times, so that you can specify different behavior for weekends
    than weekdays.
    

    	My oil burner service man recommended Honywell set back
    thermostats.  He said they were well built and and replacement parts
    were easy to find.  Does anyone know of a place to get a good deal
    on Honywell thermostats?
    					=Ralph=

    I got the same suggestion from my oil co.  Honeywell was the best,
    and can be had from them (at, they admit, mucho $$) or go to Sears.
    Over last winter, I picked up two setbacks for 2 different zones:
    
    1-	Since I had a circular thermostat and was not in the mood to
    spend a lot, I got a First Alert add-on at Spags for around $29.
    It attaches via a collar to the existing thermostat, has 4 time
    settings per weekday and 4 for weekends.  Works on AA batteries
    and about the only concern is that the step motor that turns the
    setting wheel is noisy.  It has the normal override with a button
    on the outside of the unit.  Press once to go up, release, press
    to go down.  If you're trying to change the setting by only a few
    degrees, it gets tricky.  In short, you get a lot for a little
    as long as the noise is isolated from people.
    
    2- Must have gotten a pay raise or something, because towards the
    end of the winter found a sale at Sears on the Weekender.  This
    beauty runs off the circuit (battery to store settings though),
    has same amount of settings, differentiates with weekends/weekdays.
    Override is via two arrow keys, so easy to override program.  Easy
    to program too, by the way.  Price was about $58 versus a normal
    $90+.  Put this in the master bedroom and no noise to interrupt  
    (separate zone). 
    
    I've been happy with both given the price and location differences;
    of course, we're not talking years of experience here either.  Sears
    will have sales on this stuff from time to time.  There are 2 types
    of weekenders at Sears, varying mostly in the display itself.
    Both units (Sears/First ALert) have LCD displays, with the Sears
    being larger and holding more information.
    
    I was told to stay away from Robershaws, the kind that you can get
    at K-Mart, etc. by the oil co.  There was one when we bought this
    house, and it worked, so can't help there.  Someone else might be
    able to help on this.
    
    	Hope this helps.
    
    				John
    

    At one time, SPAGS handled Honeywell.  I haven't checked lately
    so I don't know if they still carry them.

    I bought a Sears set back thermostat (on sale of course).  It worked
    fine.  Then my wife and I left for Thanksgiving.  We came back to
    a cold house.  The thermocouple on the furnace blew.  Had it replaced
    immediately (it was COLD).  The furnace came on, heated the house,
    and kept on heating.  I couldn't shut the thing off, so I had to
    turn off the furnace directly.  Luckily, I kept the old thermostat
    so I replaced it and things were back to the state they were before
    I installed the Sears one.
    
    When I returned the thermostat, I got my money back.  No one at
    Sears was willing to tell me if I had a defective thermostat, or
    what.  I did follow the installation instructions carefully.
    
                                        August G. Reinig

    In spite of what was said in a previous reply, I have a Robertshaw
    and can honestly say that I would do it again.  I bought the "Deluxe"
    model at Channel last year and it worked great.
                               
    The furnace service man looked at it and said he had the same model
    in his house -- which either says Robertshaw is ok or that the furnace
    guy is no brighter than us poor slobs!
                               
    Anyway, mine allows me to set different settings each day (I only
    have two --weekdays and weekends) with a maximum of one setback
    per day.
    
    Bottom line: It sure makes it easier to get out of bed on a cold
    morning!
    
   

    Some gas furnaces have what is called a powerpile system.  If your
    furnace has one of these you will need a thermostat that works with
    such a system.  Some years ago I purchased a Honeywell set back
    unit from Spags only to find out when I got home that the instructions
    said not to use it on powerpile systems.  I had to return it and
    purchase one through a heating supply dealer.  On a powerpile system
    the thermocouple generates the current that goes through the thermostat
    rather than a transformer.  I have no idea why that should require
    a special thermostat but the book says it does.

    My experience has been with an older Honeywell and with new, digital
    Sear's Weekenders.  The Honeywell tended to make a low level droning
    noise all of the time.  The Weekenders (reg price $99, sale price
    $49) are silent.  They are completely digital and run off of the
    low line voltage from the furnace.  They have battery backup.  I
    have no complaints at all about them and would buy another for my
    third zone when they are on sale again.

    .3
    
    I put a RobertShaw in my house 4 years ago and have been quite pleased
    with it. Yes it goes tick tick tick but we only notice it when I
    first activate it in the Fall. They said the AA battery should last
    about three to four months but last heat season I never had to replace
    it.
    
    To avoid maximum frustration when buying a thermostat try to find
    out whether your current thermostat is a 24 volt or milliamp unit.
    I had to make the trip to the store twice because of nievity. My
    system turned out to be milliamp.
    
    By the way I can't give an exact dollar amount on the savings generated
    by a setback 'stat but I get to eat steak more often now.
    
    -boB

    I used the Robertshaw deluxe unit and had some problems with it.
    It eventually died.  I'm back to my trusty (manual) Honeywell.

    
    For what it's worth, we recently bought a Sears Weekender for our
    new house (gas heat, central air).  I installed it carefully, but
    couldn't get it to work... As soon as my air conditioning triggered,
    it stopped dead. (i.e. it ran for about a second).  Never could
    figure out what happened...  Does anybody have any ideas??

    (No, the heat didn't work either!  Put my old non set-back Honeywell
    back, and no problems...)

    I bought my Honeywell unit from Ralph Pill electrical supply in Nashua.
    I paid $78 last fall.  It is a mechanical unit and comes with enough
    trip pins for 3 setbacks.  Being mechanical, it does not have a
    week-day/week-end feature but this is not a problem for me (wife
    and kids home in the daytime).  It draws electricity from the control
    unit on the burner (no batteries).  It is a good-looking device
    with an easy-to-read analog clock.  The override mechanism is an
    easy-to-operate button.

    It has 2 separate temperate-setting levers for the warm/cool settings.
    As such, it's possible to create a setback of 15 or 20 degrees.
    My uncle, who is retired from the home heating business, told me
    that anything more than a 10 degree setback is a waste of discomfort.
    He says that you will burn as much fuel trying to recover from a
    big setback as you would save during the setback (remember, you have
    to heat the sheetrock, furniture, etc., not just the air).

    Biggest problem with any setback thermostat:  coming home late
    to a frozen babysitter.  If you have children and employ babysitters
    you should be conscientious about either defeating the setback
    before you go out or leaving instructions for the babysitter.

    The Honeywell set back unit I have contains an ~11 hour timer that
    when it reaches 0 the furnace can go on.  I like this type for a
    variable schedule.  Just before leaving I just guess how many hours
    and turn the little knob.  It does have kind of an annoying tick
    while it is counting down.

    I bought a Weather Wizard (the same people who make the Magic-Stat);
    the kind you see advertised in the JS&A catalog.  I bought mine
    from Channel's for $89.  It's completely digital with battery backup
    and runs on a 24 volt system.  It's equipped to handle heat & A/C.
    
    The thermostat can be programmed for 8 different settings per day
    and can be programmed for 7 days a week.  A bit of overkill since
    most weekdays are the same.  The thermostat has alot of smarts.
    For example, if you want it to be 68 degrees by 7am, it senses the
    current temperature and "knows" how far in advance to ask for heat,
    rather than just turning on at 7am.  It also has a "hold" a particular
    temperature, thus overriding the program (for the babysitter).
    It also has a "hold until" setting so that if you go away for a
    week, you can hold 54 degrees until next week on Tuesday when I
    get back at 5pm (and I want the temperature to be 68).  The thermostat
    has a built-in delay cycle to prevent constant switching on and
    off, especially for A/C units.
    
    The only draw back is that the temperature increments are every
    2 degrees so you might have a 4 degree temperature swing before
    it detects that it should go on or off.
    
    The thermostat has worked great and has reduced my oil consumption.
    The best part is coming home to a warm house and waking up when
    it's warm.
    
    P.S. - you might need an engineering degree to operate this thing.
    
    -al

    Re .11
    
    > For what it's worth, we recently bought a Sears Weekender for our
    > new house (gas heat, central air).  I installed it carefully, but
    > couldn't get it to work... As soon as my air conditioning triggered,
    > it stopped dead. (i.e. it ran for about a second).  Never could
    > figure out what happened...  Does anybody have any ideas??

    We have the same configuration (Weekender + gas heat/central air) and
    haven't had a single problem for the 3.5 years that we've had it.  My
    sister just installed one in her house (same configuration) and is also
    very happy with it.  I'd recommend the Weekender (and its on sale now
    too!).   (BTW,  its microprocessor-controlled -- if you mis-wire
    it you'll fry it -- no second chance.)
    
    					- Don

    re: .14
    
    I think that I have the same one that you're talking about.  Got it
    from Heathkit.  It boasts "one-button programming".  What they really
    mean is that you program it in real-time, so it takes a week to set up.
    The ads also don't mention that if you accidentally move the slide
    switch from "manual" to "cool" instead of "auto" (something you have to
    do to override the program) that you have to reprogram it all over
    again. 
    
    I paid about $100.00 for it and replaced dozens of batteries
    in it even though I put it on a brand-new furnace EXACTLY according
    to directions.  Switched back to the 'ole Honeywell standard after
    two miserable years.
    
    If anyone wants to pick it up at WMO, I'll bring it in with all the
    books and such if I haven't used it for target practice.  It's free,
    but I take no responsibility for the pain and suffering it will
    undoubtedly cause you.
    
    -joet 

Consumer Reports recently reviewed electronic thermostats and found
NONE acceptable.  Even the good ones were plagued with bugs and sample 
defects.  Statistically, you may get a good one, but....

Honeywell makes quite a selection and can be bought (at a wide range 
of prices) at electrical & plumbing supply places as well as SPAGS, 
and some deparment stores.  Watch out for older models - some have 
problems with premature battery burnout.  One drawback, honeywell used 
to require that the battery replacement be done by desoldering the old 
one and soldering in the new one.  

    
    I just bought a Honeywell (model #CT300, I think) to replace an
    older Sears unit which had died on us.
    
    The box advertised it as a 2 setback, digital model, but, after
    deciphering the instructions (no easy task, as they consisted of
    incomprehensible examples with no explanation of the principles
    of operation) discovered the following:
    
    1. It is a single-program unit. Secondary programs are achieved
    by overwriting the main program.
    
    2. It is set in real time. You have to be at home and awake at the
    time you want the energy-saving portion of the cycle to begin. You
    then program in an offest (in whole hours) from the current time
    to the time at which you want normal (i.e., full-temperature) operation
    to resume. The problem with that is that it only allows for offsets
    of 15 hours. Our cycle (the unit is for our master bedroom, where
    we want full heat from about 5:30 to about 7:30 AM) is 2 hours of
    full heat, 22 of energy savings. The longest energy saving period
    you can get is 15 hours.
    
    On the positive side, it's real easy to override (for, say, weekend
    operation). There's a single button which inverts the current phase
    without effecting programmed operation.
    
    All in all, though, not an acceptable unit.
    

    
    Honywell 'Chronotherm' setback, in use five years with no problems
    and much satisfaction. Quite, accurate quartz analog clock, three
    sets of tabs for normal/setback, adjustable to half-hour increments,
    runs off thermostat voltage with ni-cad battery backup, puch button
    override.

    RE: .16
    
    The Weather Wizard is NOT programmed in real-time.  You can set
    any program/setback for any day/time at any day/time.
    
    The Magic-Stat is programmed in real-time.
    
    I would recommend that you stay away from any setback thermostat
    that is programmed in real-time.  They are a real pain in the ***.
    
    -al

ok - where can i get a weather wizard?

Re: .12 See note 23.  I was amazed at Honeywell's failure to stand 
behind their product that even they admitted was defective at 
manufacture.

Re: .*
I am also in the market for setback thermostats.  I have looked closely
at the two top Sears units.  They are guaranteed for only a year.  The
"Sears Best" one has four programs for the weekdays and four for the
weekend.  It is very easy to set.  Note that four "programs" is really
not much different than two pairs of on/off trippers in the Honeywell
Chronotherm.  So in order to have a hot period in the morning followed
by a cooler daytime (e.g. when you're working) followed by a hot period
in the evening and then a cool period at night, you *need* all four
programs.  So don't be fooled by the idea that four programs would seem
like more than enough.  I rejected the cheaper Sears one (has red marks
around an analog-like display) simply because it has fewer than four
settings on the weekends. 

I looked at the RobertShaw currently on sale at Channel for $60.  They 
have had no returns on it and people are quite happy.  It has a *3* 
year guarantee that looks to be pretty solid.  I believe that it has a 
separate program for each day (useful to us, since my wife works part 
time).  Model T60-1044

(Channel has the Honeywell CT200A on sale for $70.  That's the one I had
trouble with.) 

I believe the Weather Wizard is the one that the Channel person said 
didn't sell well so they are discontinuing.  It is, I believe $90 and 
there is one left at the Chelmsford store.  

Channel has a new thermostat in called the Energeious by Jameson home
products.  Model E200 looks to be similar to the top-of-the line Sears
in functionality (4 weekday programs, 4 weekend programs).  They have
not had any experience with that company, however. Looks easy to 
program.  I believe it had a 3 year warranty, but you should check.  
$60 not on sale now.

Last week Caldor had the Stanley setbacks on sale.  The top fo the 
line model was $65 on sale and did not look as good as either the 
RobertShaw or the Sears, so I passed it up.  3 year warranty.

I believe that most of the new thermostats are "lap programmable"; 
that is, you can remove them from the wall and program them accoring 
to the time of day (as with the Weather Wizard).  Only the Stanley $50 
model had the problems with not having a clock.

I'm leaning toward the RobertShaw.  I have only heard one negative 
comment here.  Anyone own the T60-1044?

Alex

      In my last house (which I was renting just through the winter
    prior to beginning construction on my new house) there was a table
    sitting below the thermostat, so I took a cheap lamp timer and plugged
    a 7-watt night lite into it, and set it just below the thermostat.
    By playing around with the distance from the thermostat, we could
    lower the house temp about 5 degrees when the nite lite was on,
    and also had a nite lite all night.  If you want to override it,
    just turn the nite lite off.
    
    jim d.

And, for about 40 dollars - many companies will sell you a device
which magically duplicates the action of the lamp.


I added an interesting wrinkle to my set-back thermostat (honeywell, 
w/pegs) that I thought I might mention:  the Honeywell has only
1 set-back temperature.  However, during the day, I dont care how cold 
it gets - so......Since I invested (from DAK) in a BSR home control 
system last fall, I tied one timer into my system to turn the system 
OFF during the day.  So, I get warm in morning and evening, OFF during
the day, and cooler (set-back temp) during the night.  Cut my heating
bills by about 5-10% as apparently the system was running during the
day when the house cooled down to the setback temp.
	/j

    
    	I have a Honeywell (w/pegs).
    	The battery seems to have died, as the clock will not run.
    	(I did follow the charging instructions in the manual)
    	
    	Does anyone know the voltage of this battery ?

    I installed the Robertshaw fancy model sometime ago.  At the same
    time I was having problems with the control relay on my burner.
    By the time I got everything working, both the original relay AND
    the Robertshaw thermostat were fried.
    
    So....I don't really know what caused what.  If I ever find the
    original sales slip, I might try returning it to Robertshaw under
    warrantee, and trying again...
    
    I have no problems with its programmability - it was the most flexible
    unit I found.
    
    __Rich

RE: .22
    
    Alex,
    
    I have the model T60-1044 and am very happy with it (See .6). It
    does have a separate program for each day with a maximum of two
    setbacks per day (up 6am, down 9am, up 5pm down 11pm).
    
    I did have an opportunity to call their service department this
    spring. The unit was "eating" batteries. Much to my embarrassment
    they correctly diagnosed the problem as operator error -- I turned
    off the furnace, which supplies the power for the unit!
    
    But the point is, I called, was passed to a technical expert, who
    took the time to listen to my problem, told me what was wrong, and
    did not make me feel like a jerk.
    
    RobertShaw gets my vote.
    
    
    

I bought the T60-1044 yesterday and played around with it, and decided 
to keep it.  It looks to be much higher quality than the Sears units 
or the Stanley (and the other unit I saw at Channel similar to the 
Sears only has a one year warranty).  

In particular, the buttons have a positive click rather than sometimes
working (as on the Sears) and partially deforming the case when pushed
(Sears).  Additionally, if you are used to the Honeywell Chronotherm,
the Robertshaw programs with a similar concept, except that there are
two setbacks in addition to the normal setting, rather than just one. So
you can set a temperature during the day to cool down to which is warmer
than the temperature you might use during the night.  Also, you can
program both different time periods and different setback temperatures
for each day, so if one spouse is home part of the time, you can
compensate.  The connector for the unit (connects the programming part
to the wall part so that you can program the thing while sitting down)
looks like it is less likely to fail than other units.  Compared to the
Sears, the only thing I could see that it lacks is some LED to tell that
the furnace is ON.  I would have to admit, however, that for
non-computer types, the Robertshaw would not be as easy to program as
the Sears Best one.  Also, to be fair, the Sears does offer four
different temperatures during the day, although to me that is not nearly
as important as having independent programs per day but with three
temperatures. 

Re: .25 replacing the batteries may not fix the problem if you have the
CT200, it could be the clock.  Try something like 3-4 Volts to the clock
to see if the clock starts up (when coaxed).  If so, the Honeywell
battery replacement ought to do it.  (I can't remember the precise
voltage of the Honeywell batteries; that's my best recollection.)  If
the clock does work with 3-4 volts but does not work when the new Honeywell
battery is charged, you might try adding a AAA rechargeable cell (Radio
Shack, etc) in series as I did. 

Alex

    Are there setback thermostats available for electric baseboard
    heaters? The typical setbacks I've seen are obviously not made for
    all the current passing through an electric heater thermostat. Even
    though one setback thermostat would only control 1 baseboard heater,
    it would be useful for the spring and fall when temp fluctuations
    are too great to get the woodstove cranking. Anyone ever seen
    one for electric heat? If so, how much do they cost?
    
    Thanks
    - Dave

Set backs for 110/220V systems exist, but they are *big* (like
half of a large shoe box).  At least that's what I think it was;
maybe it was a timer that turned off the water heater.  Talk to
your electrician.

R.

    You can buy a "converter" box at a wholesale heating supplier that
    converts 120v thermostat loops to low voltage. The whole assembly
    is mounted in a utility box about 4" X 6" and is something that
    demands to be installed out of sight, which makes it better for
    older line voltage furnace usage where it can be mounted near the
    burner. If you have multi-zoned electric heat, this unit is not
    for you. 
    
    				/Glenn
    
    P.S. The unit I last installed was made by Rockwell. I'll try and
    find the unit number (buried at home somewhere) and post it here.
    

    Radio Shack is now selling the Weather Wizard under the Archer
    name for $89.  I saw it in the 1987 catalog.
    
    -al

    
    	I also bought the RobertShaw T60-1044.  I ran into some questions
    replacing my old GE thermostat.  The GE answer phone came up empty
    but the RobertShaw 800 number was lots of help.  They put me in
    touch with someone in engineering who quickly answered my question.
    I paid $65 fot the unit at Channel in Weymouth.
    
    						=Ralph=

    I am convinced that its a worthwhile investment and from the notes
    I have read, it looks like Channel has the best selection.  I work
    in Westford Mass and live in Ashburnham.  Can anyone tell me where
    the closest Channel store is?
    
    Also, is setting the thermostat set-back temperature, is there a
    point where the amount of energy to bring the house back to a
    comfortable temp is more that the energy saved by setting it back
    in the first place??  Are there any guidelines on how much and how
    long for maximum effeciency?
    
    Thanks
    
    Bruce
    

    There is one in Chelmsford on Rte 110.
    

    re .25 - the 'Chronotherm battery problem'
    
    I had a Honeywell Chronotherm for a few years. I was pleased with
    its operation when it worked, but for some reason it died on roughly
    an annual basis. Symptom was dead battery, but when I replaced the
    battery, still no workie. So I called the Honeywell Customer Service
    number (1-800-something). They said 'Oh, yes. We've had problems
    with those clocks. How 'bout we send you a new one, and you return
    the old one in the new one's box?' Great idea. I just got used to
    replacing it about once each year, and Honeywell didn't seem to
    mind.
    
    re .34 - how much to set back
    
    I heard a rule of thumb that said you save about 1-2% of your heat
    bill for each degree of set back sustained 8 hours or more. In my
    new house I have 3 zones (2 downstairs in main living area, 1 upstairs
    with bedrooms). I have mine set so the downstairs can drop as much
    as it wants to at night (15-20 degrees some nights), and the upstairs
    drops 5 degrees from 9pm. through 5am. (while we're asleep), and
    from 8:30am. through 2:30pm (while the kids are at school).
    

re -.1 A few years ago - they did have problems with their clocks on a few 
models...which ones?  THe ones being sold (cheap) at caldors and zayres

    I bought a setback thermostat four years ago made by Johnson
    Controls - they make HVAC control units.  I think it cost
    about $75 back then.   It has a temp range from 50 to 95,
    24 hour time range, 4 time selections to change temp within the
    24 hour range (in half hour increments), and 7 rocker switches
    (one per day) to enable/disable setback mode.  No problems with
    it so far.
    
    Mark
    

    You can tell the chronotherms that had problems from the newer models
    by looking for a seconds hand on the clock.  The ones with seconds
    hands are the bad ones.  The ones that don't have a seconds hand
    are the updated ones.  I replaced my old one several years ago with
    a newer one (got it from the Honeywell 800 number) and haven't had
    problems since.

    RE: .34   "HOW MUCH?"
    
    A set back of 10 degrees is the break-even point -- according to most
    sources. With a greater set back, you are spending more getting
    the temp back up to "normal" than you saved during the "set-back"
    period. 
           
    AN INTERESTING THOUGHT:
    Clearly, this is an over-simplification -- since the calculation
    would be different for every heating system and every house. 
                           
    At the very least, the calculations would have to take into account:
    - the operating cost of the heating system per "burn minute"
    - the amount of burn time required to increase the house temp by
      1 degree (a function of the average outside air temp, the rate at 
      which the house looses heat, insulation, infiltration barriers, etc)
    - The duration of the set-back period
    etc, etc, etc.         
                           
    I know someone who has written a program to do such a calculation.
    He does consultation to people who are considering adding insulation,
    better windows, etc. I'll ask him if he would like to share it with
    us!
                                    
                                                        
    

< Note 397.40 by DSTAR::SMICK "Van Smick" >
                       -< SETBACK = 10 degrees or less. >-
.
.
.
    I know someone who has written a program to do such a calculation.
    He does consultation to people who are considering adding insulation,
    better windows, etc. I'll ask him if he would like to share it with
    us!
                                    
The MassSave program is done on a VMS system... they come in with a TI silent 
700 terminal, dial-up (took several tries from Hudson, MA's then-all-mechanical 
telephone switching system), and wizz-bang print out your report.

That's what we need!

-Scott

    1. On the Chronotherm.  The info about the 800 number is very
    interesting.  Honeywell sent *me* a form saying it would cost $39
    for a replacement clock.  
    
    My model is a CT200A.  By the way, I have found that clock is supposed
    to run on two standard NiCad cells (about 2.6 volts) but mine (and a
    number of the others that have failed) needs a bit more.  Three cells
    work just fine.  The $10 or $12 official Honeywell battery failed (one
    cell of it) in about a year.  The Radio Shack AAA battery (about $4.50
    a pair) is still going strong.  I plan to replace the other part of the
    Honeywell battery with a 3rd Radio Shack AAA NiCad when it goes out by
    using the Dremel again to carve out more room. 
    
    As long as the clock continues to work on 3 batteries, I won't try to
    get them to replace it. As long as I can use very inexpensive
    replacement NiCads, I won't complain. 
    
    2. On setback degrees.  The MassSave guy warned us against setting back
    too far on very cold days with our former steam system.  You could
    reach a point where the system could not recover enough to reach the
    normal comfort setting due to heat loss in the house and the slowness
    of steam radiators.  With the new FHW oil system, I think the problem
    has gone away. 
    
    3. On the Robertshaw T60-1044.  I talked to their Product Manager
    (Chuck Little (1-800-421-1130)) and found out some interesting points:
    this little thing is almost too smart!  It remembers from the most
    recent offset period how long it took to cool one degree and how
    long the system took to warm the area one degree.  From that it
    calculates when to enter and leave an offset period!  It readjusts
    according to outside temperature since it is always sampling the
    most recent heating and cool-down cycles.  
    
    The reason I say it may be too smart is that I think they took the
    wrong approach for *entering* the offset period.  They start cooling
    down soon enough so that the temperature will *reach* the offset
    temperature at the start of the offset period (with some maximum limit
    of, say, an hour).  I believe that the start of the offset period
    should indicate when the system *starts* cooldown.  However, entering
    the normal "comfort" range works just fine with this method. 
    
    4. Yes, the Sears units are overpriced.  Sears Best is $110.  On the
    best sale it only drops to $60.  The Robertshaw unit (which I think is
    better) sells normally at Channel for $65 and $60 on sale.  Another
    unit very similar in function to the Sears (I mentioned it in an
    earlier reply) sells normally at Channel for $60. 
    
    Alex

Question to those with one-button programming (the kind that have to 
be set over the course of a week).  Why can't you just fiddle with the
set-time knob to make a week go by real fast and program it in one 
sitting?/j

    re: .43
    
    There is no such knob or adjustment.
    
    -joet

then how do you set the time (like for daylight savings, etc)?

    re: .45
    
    Like, you don't.
    
    -joet

    Re: .45
    
    Yes, I asked that question about the Stanley units and decided not
    to buy one.
    
    I already had experience with one of those intelligent light switches
    that is supposed to give a "lived in" look to your house, and learns
    from a day's worth of on/off sequences.  Each switch to/from day
    light savings time reqires a reset of the thing since you can't
    access the clock.
    
    Baaaaaaaaah
    
    Alex

A note concerning electronic thermostats and zoned forced hot water (hydronic)
systems. Aparrantly the zone valves intermittently interrupt power to the
thermostat circuit when the system is running. This causes problems for some
electronic thermostats which depend on the 60Hz power for the clock. 

The Sears Weekender is one. After buying one I found out I needed a special
relay for $14 to maintain power during interuptions and it was not in stock so
I gave them back the thermostat. It will run on battery backup but does not
keep good time (no quartz clock) and eats the 9V batteries quickly.

I looked at the Robert Shaw T60-1042 (same as T60-1044 but for heat only) at
Somereville Lumber and it says on the box that it is not recommended for zone
type hydronic (FHW) systems so I didn't persue that one any further.

I also tried out a no-name thermostat from K-Mart. Forget it. It's very
difficult to program and has no program overide control. It uses ni-cads for
backup and seemed to work okay but I brought it back because of the lack of
program overide which I consider a serious deficiency. 

I wound up with the Jameson Energenius E200. It doesn't mind the power
interruptions or put undue drain on the 9V backup battery. I installed two of
them a month ago and they work great. They are very easy to program and program
modifications take only a few seconds. They are on sale at Rich's 11/28-30 and
are also available at Channel. 

- Rich 

    Crusin' through this file and found this note.
    
    I tried the timer/night light trick with my "gas log" heater. Now
    I'm getting a 6-8 degree setback while I'm at work. For a total
    of $3. Incredible.        -Tom R.

    
    I'd like to get a definitive answer to a question concerning setting
    your thermostat back twice a day, DOES IT SAVE MONEY OR NOT??
    
    This issue was touched on in a previous Home_Work note, but didn't
    arrive at a conclusion.  I just bought a digital auto-setback
    thermostat (i won't say what brand to keep to the point).
    
    I have set for 70 degrees for the comfort zone (weekeday evenings,
    2 hours weekday mornings, and weekend daytime)  and 60 degrees for
    the economy  (while sleeping, at work)
    
    The stat kicked on (as programmed) at 5 am to bring the house from
    60 to 70 degrees, but when I got up at 6:15, it was only 66 degrees
    in the house.  Granted, it was a pretty chilly morning, about 15
    degrees out.  By 7 am, when it was to shut down to go back to 60,
    the temp still hadn't reached 70 - I have oil fhw heat.
    
               Point is --> the system ran for two solid hours after
                            cooling down, trying to heat the house.
    
    I've heard both sides of the story:  setting back uses MORE energy
    to heat back up.  and setting back saves 5-10% for "2  8 hour
    setbacks of 10 degrees."
    
    Would someone who has the cold hard facts please come forward?
    
    Thank You
    
    Steve
    

    
    If my heating system ran for 2 hours without bringing the
    temperature up 10 degrees, I wouldn't blame the thermostat. I'd
    look to the heating system itself. Is the high temperature on your
    aquastat set high enough (as discussed elsewhere, the HW temperature
    should be set relative to the low outside temp)? Is there air in
    the pipes preventing water flow? Are your baseboards blocked, either
    by furniture or by dust on the fins? Is your system large enough
    for the area to be heated? Are your zone valves/circulator running?
    
    What about insultaion/storm windows/doors? 
    
    In other words, your thermostat did its job. There's something else
    that's causing the problem.
    
    Also, all the models I've seen suggest a 10 degree setback as being
    optimal for this part of the country (central N.E.)
    
    Stu
    

    
    Stu, thanks for the input.  I wasn't necessarily blaming the stat
    for the slow heating.  I do believe that my system needs more work.
    
    Maybe you only get the savings if your system is running efficiently?
    (no air in pipes, fins clean, etc.)  I have the hi-lo temps for
    the boiler at 180/120.  Suggestions otherwise?
    
    Steve
    

    
    The 180/120 sounds OK to me (in fact, the 180 sounds a bit high,
    and so should not cause the slow-heat problem you're complaining
    about). 
    
    If your system is in poor working order, it will be inefficient
    whenever it is working. The thermostat should not be a factor.
    

      Steve,
        
      I'm assuming you have a tankless system from the hi/low temp settings
    you mentioned. My heating contractor said that 200 deg was sufficient
    for my system which is used to heat the house only. My domestic hot
    water is heated in a separate oil-fired unit where the hi setting
    is ~160-180 deg or somewhere in the vicinity.

    A couple of things you might want to consider are:
    
        Air in the system. I understand, from my contractor, that no
    corrosion will accumulate in the pipes as long as there is very
    little air as its the air that causes the copper to oxidize causing
    crud and eventually affecting the heat transfer. This also depends
    upon the amount of 'make up' water required by your system. 
    
        If you do have the TANKLESS system, depending on how old the
    system is, and the quality of the water in your area, perhaps the
    problem lies here......My contractor favored the separate oil-fired
    unit for a couple of reasons.....
    
      1) he has a tankless in his house and didn't like it as he needed
         to clean out the unit after only two years of operation. This
         was because of the build up of 'scales' within the tankless (from
         the well water) which cut down the heat transfer. His input was
         well taken so I opted for the oil-fired unit even though its
         cost was greater than the incremental cost of the tankless.
    
      2) Also, with the tankless you are required to maintain boiler
         temperature year round, the same for all you guys out there with 
         the super-duper Boilermates. I personally favor the separate
         oil-fired unit over the Boilermate but the boilermate would
         be my next choice.
    
     Anyway, the other component you might want to check is the setting
    of the 'heat anticipator'. This setting provides for the amount
    of hysterisis in the heating cycle. That is, the amount of overshoot
    in degrees that the system is told to go to BEYOND the set temp.
    on the thermostat. This setting is located behind the cover of your
    thermostat and is usually set to the current rating of your primary
    control. This is the black cover usually sitting right on top of
    the burner. Remove the 2 screws closest to the boiler (1st make
    sure the power is killed!!) and swing the control back and the sticker
    or nameplate has this number on it. Most data sheets I've seen indicate
    a setting of .4 corresponding to .4 amps fron the primary. My
    thermostats came pre-set to .38 from the factory. Anyway....set
    it a hair greater to extend the cycle. More questions..? this is
    the place.
    
    Mark 
    
     
         

    
    Mark, thanks for the info. 
    
    First, no one has said that setback thermostats DON'T save energy,
    so, I'll assume that people who say that it takes more energy to
    bring the temp back to normal (70) from a low setting than leaving
    it at 70 all the time are wrong. (during 24 hour periods only).
    
    Well, you asked for it, so here it is:  
    
    1.  Bleeding air from system.  The first floor has bleeder valves
        each room.  No problem.  The second floor:  I have not been
        able to locate one single solitary bleeder on the 2nd floor,
        I checked every room, both ends of the heating element.  There
        must be some air in the 2nd floor line, but how do I bleed it?
        Do plumbers sometimes put them in weird places, or simply forget
        to put them in?  The 2nd floor heating pipes make one continuous
        loop around the perimeter of the house, going through walls.
        Unlike the 1st in which each room picks off from the main piping
        just below the floor (cellar ceiling).  This is a 65 yr old
        house.
    
        This may not explain the slo heat problem on FLR 1 though, as
        those have been bled (I'll do it again to make sure).  Each
        floor is a separate zone, run off separate circulators/stats.
    
                                          
     2.  I don't know the difference between tankless and with tank(?)
         boilers.  Does a tankLESS heat the water as it is being pumped
         through a pipe from the circulator and them out to the heating
         zone with no tank per se?  This may be what I have.  I have
         temp and pressure gauges, adjustments for hi(shutoff) and low
         (start-up) water temps. and a third adjustment which I've
         never moved for fear of blowing the place up.  It is adjustable
         from ~10 to ~25 whatever.  This may be what you spoke of.
    
      3. Once I've reached a certain set temp, it holds that temp
         fantastic, with no real swings.  i.e., constantly going from
         68-72-68-72-68, when set at 70.  So i wouldn't think that would
         be the problem.
    
      4. The fins could stand a cleaning for sure, I'll work on that.
         I have storms, there are no major drafts, and I don't know
         for sure what insulation is in the walls.  The cellar ceiling
         is not insulated.
    
    See what you can do with this.
    
    Steve
    
         

    STEVE,
    
    ON YOUR PROBLEM OF HEAT, YES THEY DO SAVE MONEY BUT??????
    IT SOUNDS LIKE A PROBLEM I HAD. DID YOU CHECK THE ZONE VALVES FOR
    PROPER OPERATION. SOUNDS DUMB, BUT I HAD ONE THAT PLUGED AND THE
    HEAT WAS NOT GETTING TO THE PROPER PLACE. ALSO YOU SHOULD CHECK
    THE AIR BLEEDER ON THE EXPANSION TANK. 

    re:.6
    
    I don't have zone valves, at least i don't think so.  What do they
    look like (sounds even dumber, huh?)
    
    Also, please elaborate on the expansion tank.  How does this bugger
    function?  You say it needs bleeding?
    
    Steve
    

    re: .0:
    
    Expecting a 10 degree rise in temperature in 1.25 hours is a bit
    much, especially with forced hot water.   You're right in a certain
    respect - the two hours of solid burn time will cost you more. 
    You're better off with a smaller drop back - 3� to 5�.   It's still
    enough to save you money, but not so much that it takes two hours
    to recover.

    with a FHW system it might take 2 hours to bring the temp up, but
    it shouldn't be "solid burn".  It should burn for awhile to heat
    the water, circulate it for awhile, then heat it some more.  Our burner
    never goes on for more then a few minutes at a time.  After all,
    when you turn your thermostat up, the water in the system should
    already be pretty hot.  In fact, depending on when you turn up the
    thermostat, the burner might not even kick in, just the circulators.

    re:.8, .9
    
    Thanks for the input, but I should have been more clear in .0
    
    The system ran for two hours, but it wasn't solid burn time as you
    thought I meant.  The water was circulating for two hours, burner
    kicking on periodically.   I guess you're both saying that fhw systems
    inherently take more time to heat up, as opposed to forced hot air
    which should heat up much quicker.
    
    Steve
    

    If you have air in the upstairs pipes, you usually hear a gurgling
    noise.  Anyway, fewer and fewer plumbers are installing bleed valves
    in a particular zone.  In this case, you need to bleed the system
    from a faucets near the furnace, located directly above the zone
    valves.
    
    OK, so you want to know what a zone valve looks like.  They're a
    solenoid actuated valve within 1-2 feet of the furnace.  Should
    be very obvious since the thermostat (red/white) wires are attached
    to them.  The most common ones have a greenish/turqoise cover on
    them and measure 2"x2"x4"
    
    -al

2 hours is a bit long even for FHW.  However, if it is cycling on and 
off, you are probably saving money as compared to having it on higher 
all night.  

180 degrees is a bit low, according to the fact sheet packed with our 
system.  190 or 200 will heat faster.  (You can get by with lower 
settings if you have warmer outside temperature, better insulation, or 
more radiation area.)

Many modern systems have a float type air vent which is supposed to get 
rid of air in the system without having to bleed.  It should be located 
right next to the pipe that rises from your boiler to your zone valves. 

Alex

    RE:8
    
    	NOT ALL FHW SYSTEMS HAVE ELECTRICAL ZONE VALVES, MINE ARE
    MECHANICAL. ON MY SYSTEM IF I FOLLOW THE RETURN LINE FROM THE BOILER
    YOU WILL CAME TO A JUNCTION WERE THE FEED PIPES COME TOGETHER. AT
    THIS POINT IS WHERE MY VALVES ARE LOCATED. I ALSO HAVE DRAINS FOR
    THE SYSTEM LOCATED HERE. THE VALVES I HAVE ARE INLINE 1/4 TURN TO
    SHUT OFF OR OPEN EACH ZONE. BEING YOU HAVE A SECOND FLOOR THERE
    IS A GOOD CHANCE YOU HAVE ELECTRICAL ONES.
    	THE EXPANSION TANK IS USUALLY LOCATED JUST ABOVE THE BOILER.
    SINCE EXPANSION TANKS VARY THE AIR BLEEDER MIGHT BE DIFFERENT BUT
    USUALLY THEY ARE ON TOP. THEY HAVE A SMALL CAP LOOKS LIKE A CAR
    TUBE CAP. JUST UNSCREW THIS SLOWLY AND YOU CAN HEAR THE AIR.
    

    
    In the process of cleaning out the fins on the baseboard heat, I
    found out why my bathroom doesn't heat up real good.  This is my
    first winter in the house.
    
    You'll get a chuckle out of this.
    
    The fins were installed 45 DEGREES OUT OF PHASE, OR SIDEWAYS!
    Since heat travels up, and not across, it won't supply much heat
    that way.  And the system has been there since 1963, according to
    the papers I found down cellar.  I can't imagine why the previous
    owner(s) didn't notice or fix this!
    
    Steve
    

    The only time I've heard people say that you shouldn't turn back the
    thermostat is when you use a heat pump.  Heat pumps are not good at
    heating a place quickly.  If required to do so, they may kick in the
    auxiliary heat source, usually electric resistance, to do the job.  The
    cost to reheat the house using the auxiliary heat source is more
    than the cost to keep the house warm using the heat pump.
    
                                        August G. Reinig

    DO you remember the Make/Part Number of that RELAY that you were
    told was need for the Weekender Thermostat with Zone Valves? I went
    to SEARS and they had one for 34.95 and it didn't SEEM to be what
    I wanted. Was it? Am I just getting the wrong price? What problems
    will I have with the Thermostat AS-IS, (Providing that I don't mind
    changing the 9-volt batteries every few months)
    
    Any ideas for RELAYS ??
    
    Mark

    in reference to 661.2::
    
     I believe that you may want to reconsider having the low setting
    at 120. I have a high effiecency FHW boiler and it specifically
    states that the low setting should not be less than 140 as extended
    running at temps below 140 can cause rusting of the cast iron sections.
    
    							Dave
    

     With respect to 661.9, what you do want is for the burner to run
    as long as possible, with few stops and starts during the time that
    the thermostat is calling for heat. To accomplish this, a smaller
    nozzle is used on the burner. Hence less oil is burned during run
    time, and less heat is produced when it runs. The longer the boiler
    can run, the better the overall efficientcy.
    

    The recommended relay is listed in the Sears catalog. I'll try to
    remember to look it up and post the catalog number. Other than changing
    batteries and correcting the clock periodically I am not aware of
    any other problems using it as is.
    
    - Rich
    

    re .16
    
    That's interesting, I had it down at 120 because Mass Save recommended
    that you set the lower limit of the water temp down at 110 or 120
    so that as much heat as possible "will be drawn out of the water"
    before it is reheated, for fuel savings.  I also think that both the
    lower and upper
    temp settings are a factor in how quickly your house heats up.
    
    
    
    Regarding the hi-lo boiler settings,
    Maybe, with FHW, you either can have quick heat up (higher temp
    settings)   OR   econo (lower temp settings) but not both at once.
    
    Why would a low temp cause pipes to rust, I wonder.  Maybe some
    subtle chemical reaction which is activated at 120F?
          
    

    It's not the pipes that rust, it's the heat exchanger that rusts.
    My guess is that the low water temp allows condensation to form
    on the cast iron heat exchanger. Rember that water is a product
    of combustion. The higher temp would allow the water to remain in
    a vapor state and thus flow up the chimmney, or at least condense
    someplace other than on the heat exchanger.
    
     From what I have read (with gas heat) the early high efficentcy
    furnaces had lots of problems with the heat exchangers rusting out
    very quickly. This was due to the formation of water and an acid
    (not sure which acid), which as you can guess raised hell. High
    efficientcy furnaces, and  boilers waste little heat up the smoke
    stack. Most of the heat energy is used to heat your house.
    
    
    						Dave Hartwell
    
    PS: I just looked over my literature last night, it stated that
    if a lower than 140 degree temp was used that one should install
    a bypass pipe between the hot water outlet to the return just before
    the circulator. This would insure that the heat exchanger would
    stay hot enough to discourage the formation of water.
    

	I have a Robertshaw setback thermostat (nicad type) which started
smoking and doesn't work any more.

	- Anyone have the manufacturer's address? 
	- Also, what are the warranty terms? and charges for
	  out-of warranty repairs?

Thanks.

    
    
    try:
    
    Robertshaw Controls Co.
    Tennessee Div, Dept G
    2318 Kingston Pike
    Knoxville TN   37916
    (615) 546-0550
    

    I was cautioned in do this as the current rating of the SEARS DIGITAL
    setback was on the threshold of the TACO zone valves... Yes it would
    work, but it might just shorten the life of the Thermostat.
    (thermostat rated upto 1.0A, valve is .9A... very close)
    
    If it works though, great!
    
    Mark

    Just bought a Sears Weekender II on sale last week. Installation
    went fine until I came up with a blue wire ??? The instructions
    said if a B wire was used then the unit couldn't be installed on
    the system or somthing to that fact. Just out of curiosity I went
    down to the furnace to take a look... The blue wire wasn't connected
    to anything!! What a relief, I hate returning things.
    
    Other than waiting for the begining of the weekday/weekend cycle
    to start so it can be put on auto. It's been worth the $$.

    Richard

    I'm looking at installing a setback thermostat, the Sears electronic
    with alternate weekend program.
    
    When you install this with a multi-zone FHW system or gas with 
    elect. ignition, you need a relay -- this is presumably to isolate
    the thermostat electronics from the boiler/furnace control
    electronics (?).
    
    Anyway, the system in question is single-zone with domestic hot
    water coil (yech, but there it is).  
    
    Since the furnace comes roaring on when you draw hot water, I am
    assuming that the presence of the domestic coil means control
    circuitry like a multi-zone, and that I should use the relay.
    
    Any thoughts ????
    
    dq

Sounds exactly like my situation, even the same thermostat.

I installed the thermostat two winters ago. I remember reading 
something about the relay in the instructions. "you've got to be 
kidding" I thought and installed the thermostat anyway. No mods 
whatsoever.

Works fine, no problems.

Chuck

disclaimer: If yours is ruined because you didn't install a protective 
relay I'm not responsible. 

     I installed a SEARS "weekender" several years ago and had the same
    thoughts when I came to the relay part of the directions. I always
    had a bear of a time when I would order something from SEARS so
    I decided to try the thermostat without the relay. The only problem
    that I have encountered is when the furnace is on the power from
    the funace to the thermostat is cut off. This causes drain on the
    backup 9 volt battery and eventually the clock looses time, perhaps
    2 or 3 minutes a week.
    
    
    p.s. I use the word SEARS in past tense only because of their service.
    	 the last straw was when I ordered a chain-saw and they sent
    	 me baby crib! I wouldn't have minded as much but every idiot
    	 working in the store insisted the crib was mine even though
    	 the order slip said differently!

    I don't know if you have purchased the Sears model yet, but I thought
    I would share my experience. The first unit I put in was a Honeywell.
    It cost around $70 and just like in the last reply about the Sears
    model, every time the furnace comes on, the 24v is cut to the
    thermostat and the unit must run off the batteries. This would cause
    this unit to loose time and eat batteries. Eventually, only after
    a month and one battery later, the unit went crazy and eventually
    died. I brought it back and bought the RobertShaw model, on sale
    at $39.95. It has been in for three months with no problems. It
    must draw less current from the batteries because in all this time
    it hasn't lost a minute. I have an OLD (1930's) oil fired boiler
    and thought I would need a relay too. Something about being old
    and drawing a lot of current I guess. Anyway, I installed it without
    one and have had no problems. I tought I would just mention this
    because I think it would be a real pain to constantly reset the
    clock and put in new batteries with the Sears model.
    
    Tim
    

     I bought the Sears top-of-the-line programmable thermostat.  I, too, 
pondered over the relay.  It works fine without it.  I have a 1930's 
converted coal furnace, GHW, with a Beckett burner and old fashioned stack
switch.  In my particular case, the thermostat is powered whether the
burner is on or off, EXCEPT that the power is interrupted for 38 seconds 
after the burner shuts off.  The battery has been riding through these 38 
second interrupts for a couple of months now.

    I purchased a Robert Shaw model for $39.95 at Spag's.  I also had
    to get a Sears relay for the furnace.  The Robert Shaw model is
    designed for 22 ACv to 30 ACv signals (ideal 24 ACv).  I had to get the
    Sears relay because I was only getting a 14 ACv signal from the
    furnace.  
    
    My advise is to buy the thermostat (I like the RobertShaw) and get
    a Voltmeter.  If the signal from the furnace is less than recommended 
    then you will have to buy a relay.  Otherwise, you can save the
    $30.00.
    
    SRG

    I have two Sears Weekenders and had to get the relays.
    
    At first, I only had one thermostat and one zone.   The thermostat
    controlled the circulator pump.   I didn't need the relay in this
    environment.
    
    Then, I added a second zone, and went to zone valves.   This uses one
    circulator pump, and the zone valves open or close to control the flow
    through the appropriate circuit.   In this arrangement, the thermostat
    controls the zone valves, and the zone valves (in parallel) control the
    circulator pump.  In this arrangement, from observation with a
    voltmeter and a little speculation, the thermostat opens the zone
    valve, which stays open for "a while".   While open, the zone valve
    needs the 24V to energize the relay, and thus keeps power away from the
    thermostat.   Eventually, the zone valve relay closes and gives power
    back to the thermostat, which, as far as it is concerned, is still
    "closed circuit", which opens the zone valve again.  This repeats until
    the thermostat opens and the zone valve stays open because the
    thermostat is.   This choppy action results in the thermostat running
    from the batteries about 90% of the time while the thermostat calls for
    heat.   My batteries lasted about a month.
    
    Now, when you put the external relay in the circuit, the thermostat
    thinks its load is the relay, and the relay's load is the zone valve.
    Since the power interruption is on the load side of the relay, the
    thermostat doesn't see it, and your batteries last forever (well,
    at least 1.25 years so far.)
    
    If I were doing it again, I'd just go with another circulator pump.
    By the time I bought the relays, the savings of the zone valve over
    the extra pump was cancelled...

    
     In the spirit of one-upsmanship, or plain stupidity, whichever
    you prefer, I have three RobertShaw programmables for three seperate
    zone valve zones. One is for both air conditioning and heat, the
    other two heat only.  They would eat batteries like M&M's until
    I installed parallel relays.  It took three seperate calls to RS
    until they solved the problem.  I couldn't be happier with the results
    or dealing with RobertShaw.

    When I wrote the original question, I had only seen Sears'
    complicated relay -- a Honeywell originally intended to plug into
    a heating/cooling system, to which you need to add an external
    transformer, etc.
    
    They now have a small, integrated transformer/relay unit for $12,
    which plugs into a wall outlet and is then wired between the
    thermostat and the furnace.  This makes it a 5-minute (or less)
    job.  I put it in -- it *may* not be needed, but will eliminate
    the possibility of an oil serviceman saying the screwy electronic
    thermostat is interfering with his control system!
    
    dq

    To add to this discussion and comparisons, the prices seem to be
    factors when choosing the right way to go:
    
    	Thermostat (ie, Sears or RobertShaw or Honeywell)	$40-80
    	'Sears' Relay for isolation and constant AC to Therm	$12.95
    	Zone Valves						$35-50
    	Circulator Pumps					$35-50
    
    	9volt batteries (8-)					$.60-$1.99
    
    I went with the Sears Digital, Sears Relay, 1 circulator pump and
    two zone valves... Works two years now, not a minute off timing,
    not a day without the proper heat!
    
    Mark

RE: .7 and replies.

It appears that with zone valves, you'd better plan on relays.  I went
with circulators because I was told that it was more reliable.  If a
circulator pump went out, you'd still get heat in the other zones.  Now
that I know that I also saved on relays, I am happier. 

By the way, I wish the note somewhere in this file had been written 
before we had the FHW system installed. Using all circulator pumps has 
an advantage over valves in addition to simple reliability.  You can 
make the following configuration at pump site (ignoring other valves, etc.):

         Zone 1               Zone 2               Zone 3               
          | |                  | |                  | |                 
          | |                  | |                  | |                 
          | |                  | |                  | |
          | |                  | |                  | |                 
          | |______ T _________| |______ T _________| |
          |  ______|X|_________   ______|X|_________  |
          | |    Valve A       | |    Valve B       | |
          | |                  | |                  | |                 
          | |                  | |                  | |                 
          (P) Pump A           (P) Pump B           (P) Pump C
          | |                  | |                  | |                 
          | |                  | |                  | |                 

With the above configuration, if there is a failure in pump A, you need 
simply open valve A and pump B can run both both zones 1 and 2, until 
you can fix the pump.  Even with two pump failures, A��D�


�
'1�
C��7 	| |_ T _| |_ T _| |�7 	|  _|X|_   _|X|_  |�7 	| |    Valve A | |    Valve B | |�H 	||||||

    Another winter passes...
    
    I bought a Robershaw digital last year, with lots of membrane keys
    and two setbacks per day.  Sure it takes a computer scientist to
    program it, I didn't mind.  But when I went away on a business trip
    last month, and the humidity was low (winter dryness), I discovered
    a reason I'll never get another!
    
    Whenever you touch the wall underneath it, where the wire runs behind
    the plaster, the spark from your body zaps the memory!  It gets
    seriously random.  For example, the "day" temperature at one time
    jumped to 83 degrees (in the EPROM) and the offsets to 49, with
    such nice on-times as 49:33 (AM or PM?).  This did not make my wife
    happy...
    
    The new house will get a mechanical one.  Viva analog!
           fred

    RELATIVE TO .9-
    
    1.DO YOU HAVE THE SEARS PART NUMBER FOR THE INTEGRATED
    RELAY/TRANSFORMER?
    
    2.WHEN WIRING THE TRANSFORMER IN, HOW MANY WIRES ENDED UP AT THE
    THERMOSTAT UNIT? WAS IT TWO ORIGINALLY AND YOU HAD TO ADD MORE IN
    THE WALL?
    
    I ASK AS I AM HAVING TROUBLE FIGURING OUT HOW TO ADD THE ISOLATION
    RELAY WITHOUT MORE THAN TWO WIRES IN TOTAL GOING TO THE THERMOSTAT.

                                             THANKS,
    
                                                     NORM
    

    For those of you that have a heat pump as a heating source know
    that this type of heating does not allow you to use a set-back 
    thermostat.  A conventional set-back thermostat would prove to
    be too costly in controlling the heat pump.  A new thermostat
    made for heat pumps is now available.  Below is the info.  They
    are expensive but then again they may be worth the cost.
    
    	Digistat HP2000
    	American Stabilis Inc
    	P.O. Box 1289
    	Lewiston, ME
    
    I am sure that they are available locally.
    
    Basically the way that this thermostat works is that it ramps the
    temperature up from the setback temperature in 0.5 degree increments
    starting up to 2 hours before setup time.  By doing it this way it
    avoids turning on the backup heating source.

    	I have a total electric house with thermostats in each room 
	and was looking for a set-back thermostat that will work with
	a 220v thermostat but have been unable to find one.
	
	Has anyone had any experience with this.  Earlier in this note
	it was mentioned but never really answered.

	Al 

I believe no one makes a high voltage (110/220) set back thermostat.  There 
are a couple of reasons that make them unfeasable.  For one, there is one 
in every room.  This isn't because the builders wanted you to have many 
zones for your extreme comfort and convenience; it's because the 
thermostats are a dime a dozen and there is no central heating plant to 
control.  At any rate, you'd have to buy too many.  People wouldn't buy 
them for that reason and also because one would have to run around the 
house to set them all or modify the settings.  Another is that high voltage 
doesn't lend itself to being easily contoled with new fancy digital 
controls, relays would have to be used which complicates the many you have 
to buy etc.

Here's the invention that needs to be invented.  A central microprocessed 
unit which sends radio frequency signals to indiviually controlled remote
high voltage thrermostats similar to todays type.  All the technology
exists already but it hasn't been packaged up nicely (and simply) enough to
make a product.  I bet it would sell for big bucks.  Anybody, want to go in 
on this together?  You make it a reality and market it, then send me the 
money.  We'll be partners!

btw, i'm sure this won't work with radiant ceiling heat which is 
agonizingly slow to respond to large temperature differences.

Craig

they do make electronic thermostats that fit over the hi-voltage ones 
with little motorized levers that adjust the thermostat.  no kidding.
now, if someone could figure out a central control system for these...

    The motorized lever devices Jeff mentions are made by First Alert.
    There are models for round thermostats too.
    
    An alternative is a a device made to be used with the X-10 home
    power control system - it consists of a small unit that sits under
    your thermostat and, during the setback period, a small heating
    element warms the air under the thermostat, fooling it into
    thinking it is warmer.  These can be controlled from a central
    console.  X-10 devices (and there are lots of them) are discussed
    in the ATSE::X-10 conference.  (Press KP7 to add it to your notebook.)
    
    				Steve

    A simpler solution might be to replace the 220V electric thermostat
    with a low voltage relay/transformer.  These are pretty commonly
    available since not all installations want to run hefty cable to
    a thermostat and then to the heaters.  The relay mounts in the
    baseboard and conventional low-voltage wiring runs to the thermostat.
    
    If you buy this as a "low voltage electric heating thermostat" you
    might have to take a package containing the thermostat itself, which
    you will then throw away because you want to use a setback thermostat.
    An even cheaper approach would be to buy a 16V AC relay or contactor
    rated at sufficient current @220V for your application plus a cheap
    16V doorbell transformer.
    

I bought my parents a Sears Weekender II to use on their FHA/oil system,
and I couldn't get it to work, i.e., it wouldn't even make the furnace turn on
at all.  All there were were two wires hooked to the old Honeywell thermostat.

I know the unit works, because I tried it on my FHW/oil system.

Does the Weekender need additional hardware to make it work with a FHA system???

Thanks,

Steve

    What DOES it do? Does the display turn on? Does the On/Off light
    come on at a given temp?
    
    More info please...\
    
    Mark

    
    Test the voltage across the wires at the thermostat.  Maybe it's
    different from the voltage that the Weekender is designed for.
    Most thermostats take 24 Volts (plus or minus about 3 Volts),
    but some take 12V or something else.
    
    -tm
    

re .63, .64

All the displays come on, everything works great, except that the furnace
won't kick on.

I spoke to the resident heating expert here in our plant and he recommended 
to check the voltage present at the 2 wires, as .64 mentioned, and see if its
within spec of the Weekender. 

I won't going home to Mom and Dad's till Xmas, so I'll report back in 2 months!

Thanks

Steve

    I have the Weekender II thermostat (this is the "Sears Best" model,
    right?) on my FHA furnace/AC and it works just great.  The instructions
    do warn that some furnaces will need a separate relay that Sears sells.
    This will be if the power to the thermostat is disconnected while the
    furnace is running.
    
    If this doesn't pan out, perhaps you have it wired incorrectly.  Did
    you follow the instructions carefully and label each wire as you
    removed it from the old thermostat?  (I didn't, but guessed lucky when
    installing the new one!)
    
    				Steve

    Yes, temperature setback does save fuel and money.
    
    As an example, if you have a wall which has an insulation value
    of R20 (3 1/2" fiberglass + insulating sheeting + sheetrock + siding
    + air layers) it has a u value of .05 BTU/hour/sq.ft./deg F.   u = 1 / R.
                                                                 
    If the outside temp is 20 deg and inside is 70, the differential
    is 50.  50 x .05 = 2.5 BTU/hour/sq.ft.  If your room is 10x10 with
    8' walls and two walls exposed to outside (a corner room) you have
    160 sq ft of wall.  2.5 + 160 = 400 BTU/hour.  (one cubic foot of
    natural gas is around 1000 BTUs)
    
    If the inside temp is reduced to 60 degrees, the equation becomes
    40 deg x 160 sq.ft. x .05 BTU/hour/sq.ft/deg = 320 BTU/hour.
    
    From this you can see that there is a direct (and proportional)
    relationship between heat loss and inside to outside temperature
    differential.
    
    Granted this is a trivial example since I didn't include ceilings,
    floors, infiltration and fenestration; but the result would remain
    the same.  The smaller the temperature differential, the less heat
    transfer (heat loss) takes place.
    
    

I just bought a variant of the Robert Shaw mentioned earlier in
this note, and tried to install it on a 2-wire heat-only, zoned
by circulator pumps system.  The unit has two 1.5V AA batteries 
inside.  Everything I can see around the funace looks like 24V,
including the documentation. 

So, I installed it w/o a relay.  The result was that when I
turned back on the circuits by the furnace, I get a loud
hum/rattle out of the switchboxes which control that zone.
Clearly something is not right.  I tried switching the wires just
to see if I'd gotten them reversed, but same thing. 

Is this a symptom of needing a relay?  I want to install others
(I bought 3) for the system, but now am not sure what's required
to do it.  I checked the voltage across the terminal wires, and
get 24V when the system is not running, and that drops down to
3-4V when it IS running. 

Now what's weird about this is that I already have a Stanley
hooked up to one of the zones, and it works just fine.  Same
electrical characteristics as the "old" thermostats mentioned
above.  According to the instructions with the Stanley (w/ 9V 
battery), I "should" need an isolation relay IF I see the
above-mentioned voltage drop.  To the best of my abilities, I
cannot see anything which looks lika transformer or relay
anywhere in the circuit! 

So, what gives here?  Why don't the new Robertshaws work?

Thanks for any insights!!

    

    It usually saves money to set back the thermostat at night.
    Although the characteristics of the heating system are important,
    the primary consideration has to do with laws of physics.  Here
    the fact is that the greater the difference in temperature
    between two bodies, the faster heat flows between them.  In the
    case of a house, the two bodies are the house and the outside air.
    The greater the difference in temperature the faster heat flows
    from the house to the outside.  Lowering the temperature of the
    house at night reduces the heat flow.
    
    That the system has to work for an extended time in the morning
    to bring the temperature back up is a distraction.  If you were
    to not set back the temperature you'd find that overall the
    system worked longer to maintain the constant temperature.
    
    With forced hot water there are two forces involved with respect
    to the temperature of the water that circulates.
    
    The hotter the water the more quickly your house will warm up.
    In this case the two bodies are the circulating water and the
    air in your home.  On the other hand, the hotter the water
    is in the circulator, the harder it is for the burner to
    maintain the temperature of the water.  In this case, the
    two bodies are the oil burner flame and the water being
    heated; here, what happens is that the heat that the water cannot
    absorb literally goes up your chimney.
    
    Our heating system attempts to maintain the temperature at 160
    degrees for heating purposes.  I set it back myself from something
    like 200 degrees.
    
    Rich
     

I don't remember my thermodynamics exactly, but heat loss is proportional to 
either the third or fourth power of the temperature differential.  That means 
that if it's 20� out, and you keep the house at 60� overnight instead of 70�,
your heat loss will be cut to at least ((60-20)**3/(70-20)**3)=50%, and, if
it's the fourth power instead of the third, then the heat loss is only 40% at
the lower temperature.  Of course things like air infiltration will alter this,
but the fact remains that the energy necessary to maintain a lower temperature 
is much less.  Also remember that your furnace won't run at all for several
hours while the house drops to to the lower temperature.  In addition, most 
furnaces run at their highest efficiencies when then run continuously, as they 
do to heat the house in the morning.  The only reason I wouldn't set the temp 
way back at night is if the furnace were so undersized that it had trouble 
heating the house up again in the morning.

Paul

    
    Paul, I don't recall any of that third or fourth power stuff.
    
    My Momentum, Heat and Mass transfer book gives the equation for
    steady-state heat conduction in 1 direction
    
    	q = -kA dt/dx (Fourier's equation) = rate of heat conduction
    					     in x direction
    
    	k = thermal conductivity of the wass at a given temperature 
    	    and pressure
    	A = cross-sectional area normal to heat flox
    	dt/dx = temperature gradient in x direction
    
    A quick look at the thermal conductivity of a couple of common
    insulators shows that the thermal conductivity does not very
    significantly at the temperature differences a homeowner is
    concerned with:
    
    Insulator			k at 100 deg. F		K at 200 deg. F
    ---------	        	---------------		---------------
    
    laminated asbestous felt	   .045			    .050
    (20 lam/in)
    rock wool			   .030			    .034

    diatomaceous earth brick       .054			    .056

    I don't have a lot of figures available, but you get the idea.
    
        
    The equation for radiation and convection is similar:
    
    	q = h A (t1 - t2), where h is the heat transfer coefficient.
    
    

    There's a  problem  with  leaving  the furnace off for a few hours
    while  the  house cools to the night time temperature. If you have
    heating  pipes  that  run  along outside walls, the water in those
    pipes can freeze while the house temp.  drops.  

--David (speaking from experience)

>I don't remember my thermodynamics exactly, but heat loss is proportional to 
>either the third or fourth power of the temperature differential.  That means 
>that if it's 20� out, and you keep the house at 60� overnight instead of 70�,
>your heat loss will be cut to at least ((60-20)**3/(70-20)**3)=50%, and, if
>it's the fourth power instead of the third, then the heat loss is only 40% at
>the lower temperature.  Of course things like air infiltration will alter this,
>but the fact remains that the energy necessary to maintain a lower temperature 
>is much less.  

     The idea here is correct.  This is true for one form of heat 
transfer, but I forget which -- radiation or conduction.  Also, the
temperatures must be figured in Kelvin, not Fahrenheit.  That makes this 
form of heat loss about 7% less for a 60F/70F spread.

    re: .25
    If all you're worried about is the difference in temperature, which
    I think you are, I can't see why the units matter.  K, C, or F, the 
    difference is the same.  In the case of K and C, the difference
    is exactly the same number; in the case of F, it's a different number
    but the rest of the equation will then have "English" instead of
    metric/ISO units to compensate; you'll come out with btu instead
    of calories (or joules, or whatever the hell the ISO equivalent
    of a btu is), but it should represent the same amount of heat loss.
    
    Note: if all thermodynamics equations had to be in Klevin, no
    engineering thermodynamics class would ever graduate!  Engineers,
    a contrary lot, work in Fareheit and btus all the time.  Units 
    don't matter, as long as everything is consistent.

It seems that all of the previous replies agree that turning down the thermostat
at night will reduce the heat loss during the night.  This savings is
reduced, of course, by the extra heat required in the morning to bring the
temp of the air (and walls and furniture, etc.) back up.  Except for a general
comment in .21 that there is still a net savings, I didn't notice any other
comments about the extra heat required in the morning.

My wife is home during the day, and she has found that on cold mornings it takes
a couple of hours for the house to be warmed up and that during that time she
has a difficult time getting much done.  Thus, my concern is getting an
estimate on the energy savings during the night and an estimate of the extra
energy required in the morning to restore the temp, so I can decide if the
discomfort experienced by my wife is worth the savings, i.e. how much would I
have to pay in energy costs to provide her a greater comfort level in the
morning.

Anyone willing to write a simple program that would allow the user to enter
room dimensions, amount of insulation, temperatures, etc., and then would
calculate the *net* heat savings/loss in reducing the thermostat at night?
Here is your chance, someone, for instant world-wide fame within the DEC
community :-)

Allen

    If you have/get automatic setback thermostats you can have the heat
    start back on a couple of hours before your wife gets up in the
    morning. You'll still get some of the overnight savings and less (since
    the house hasn't cooled as much) of the warmup costs. I get up an hour
    before the rest of my family to go to work and as I leave I kick on the 
    downstairs heat so the edge is off the chill when they get up.

	RE: .27

>	so I can decide if the discomfort experienced by my wife is
>	worth the savings, 

	Allen!  I hope you're not lowering the temperature too low.
    	I'd hate to be the one to show her the calculation on the
    	cost-benefit of her discomfort!

    	If it were my decision, I'd cut down somewhere else in the interest
    	of better marital relations. 8-)

    	Phil

    
    RE: all
    
    OK, everybody, we have some people claiming they seem to know the
    equation for heat loss.  I've looked up what I could find in my
    tranfer operations book by Bennet and Meyers, and put it in .23.
    
    How 'bout some of you going back to your books, and finding them
    instead of guessing in your heads.  It sure would be nice to
    discuss some known, documented equations, instead of your opinion
    on what the equation might be.  Let's act like engineers! 
    
    RE: .25
    
    You are correct in saying that when dealing with only differences
    in temperature, absolute temperature scales (such as Kelvin)
    need not be use.
         
    RE: .27
    
    > It seems that all of the previous replies agree that turning down
    > the thermostat at night will reduce the heat loss during the
    > night.  This savings is reduced, of course, by the extra heat
    > required in the morning to bring the temp of the air (and walls
    > and furniture, etc.) back up. 
    
    Simple????  We can't even agree on the correct equations for
    simple conductive heat loss.  You wanna guess how many other
    things are involved when you apply it to a real situation?
    

    My husband spoke to the guy from our oil co. about putting in a
    set-back thermostat.  We have the old steam radiators.  He said
    we wouldn't save any money by using it with the steam radiators.
    
    Is anyone currently using a set-back thermostat with the steam
    radiators and oil heat?  Have you saved money with it?  
    
    Could someone please explain why the oil guy told my husband this.
    My husband tried to explain it but somehow it just didn't make any
    sense.
    
    Kathy

    re .31
    
    Kathy,
    
    Your oil guy told your husband this because your oil guy sells oil.
    
    I have steam by oil and use a setback all the time. With similar
    lifestyle between  the year before I put the thermostat in and
    the year when I put it in, I used approx 40% less oil. 
    
        
    Your mileage WILL vary ...
    
    -Bob
    
    

Re .29

>	Allen!  I hope you're not lowering the temperature too low.
>    	I'd hate to be the one to show her the calculation on the
>    	cost-benefit of her discomfort!
>
>    	If it were my decision, I'd cut down somewhere else in the interest
>    	of better marital relations. 8-)

Hi Phil,

Yes, I agree!  I've been lowering the temp about 10-12 degrees and wasn't
aware until she made a recent comment about it taking 2-3 hours to get the
house warm after a cold night.  I left the temp up during the cold spell we
just had, and it was much nicer.  

Allen

    On a recommendation, I just bought a Robertshaw, Model T1-1044 (I
    think) and installed it this weekend.  The best I've seen yet for the
    price ($30. at Somerville Lumber).  All solid state electronic, four
    week day settings, four Saturday settings, four Sunday settings, four
    over-ride settings, 2 AA battery backup, easy to use. 

    
    RE: .31
    
    Kathy, I have oil/steam heat, and I use a set-back thermometer.  
    However, I do not let it get too cold in the house, because I 
    don't want my pipes to freeze, and I don't want it to take too 
    long to heat up in the morning.  As for whether I'm saving money
    by using it ... well, I really can't tell for sure.  This is only 
    one of the many changes I've made to help save energy and make 
    my system more efficient, so it's really hard for me to tell.
    
    --Th�r�se
        
    

    re: several, wrt pipes freezing.
    
    Having to keep your heat higher than you'd like because of pipes
    freezings is indicative of another problem - get your pipe freezing
    problem fixed!!  Even if you never have a disaster, you are throwing
    money down the drain running heat (or hot water) pipes through an
    uninsulated area.   Power or other failures can strike your heating
    system, and burst pipes in walls can be a bigger mess than you've
    ever dreamed of.  Happened to a neighbor once who conceded that
    he'd have been better off if the house burned down! 

    

    
    RE:  661.36 by BOSTON::SWIST
     < Pipe freezing should not be a factor ... >
    
    Jim, obviously it does not pay to run pipes through an uninsulated
    area.  However, even well insulated areas can freeze with no heat
    source around.  Insulation just slows it down. Especially in a
    crawl space which is above the frost line.  Especially when
    temperatures go below zero (sometimes well below zero).  Sure, if
    I designed the house, I would not put a bathroom above a crawl
    space, but it's there now, and I'm not a millionare. 
    
    As for a power failure/heating system break down ...
    
    There is a simple way to prevent pipes from freezing  -- drain
    the system (or the areas which are most likely to freeze).

    I have a honeywell set-back thermostat with a clock that is losing
    time,  the thermostat is about 4 years old and I was wonderering
    if the maybe the clock wore out.  Also, is it repairable.  I also
    have one of the sears digital thermostats which I would buy another
    to replace the honeywell with if it cannot be fixed.  thanks
    
    
    Saul
    

    I'm no expert...but I suspect your battery is gone in the
    Honeywell thermostat..  I think they are the nicad type, and
    if I'm not mistaken they are 'hardwired' to the device...not
    an easy chore to change!   You may do better (read it may be
    easier and cheaper) to just replace it!
    
    

    My setback thermostat is a Honeywell, too, and after several years, one
    cell of the double-cell nicad inside it went, so the clock was not
    always running (worked sometimes and not other times).  You can get a
    replacement nicad from Honeywell by calling the 800 number in the
    booklet that came with the thermostat (they will try to give you a list
    of local stores that might have the thing, but don't bother - I spent
    two whole evenings visiting all the places they suggested and none of
    them actually carry the nicad pack).  It was real easy to replace.  If
    you don't mind kludging a bit, you probably could buy a pair of little
    nicads from Radio Shack (or similar), tape them together, attach wires
    to the ends, and put them in instead - I didn't bother with that, since
    I wanted to be sure that the box would close over it neatly.  Works
    fine now!

    THE way its done is to use a 24V set back thermometer and use a
    220V relay. I am getting a quote one one now. 

    Re:  .35 (impact of setback thermal changes on house and furnishings)
    
    It's hard for me to accept the idea that a shift of 10 degrees
    causes significant additional stress to the things in your household.
    
    Summertime temperature swings are greater (unless you constantly 
    run whole-house air conditioning).  
    
    But I believe the greatest source of stress on furniture and pianos
    is caused by humidity cycling over the year -- humidity varies from
    nearly 100% at times in the summer to something like 20-40% during
    the winter, depending on the charcteristics of the house.
    
    dq
    

RE: << Note 661.38 by AMUSE::QUIMBY >>>
>
>    But I believe the greatest source of stress on furniture and pianos
>    is caused by humidity cycling ...

      In the summer the humidity is almost always high enough that there
      is no significant drying out of pianos and other furniture.
      
      In  the  winter  this is not so.  The swing of 10 degrees or so in
      temperature can cause a significant change  in  relative  humidity.
      Much  more  significant  than  similar  and even large temperature
      swings in the summer.

      But your correct in any case; the best thing to do is to keep your
      whole house heating/cooling system running year round.   (O.K.  If
      you  really want to you can cut it off for a few weeks each spring
      and fall.)
      
      My opinion remains that set back thermostats address a symptom and
      not the real problem. In a properly sited, properly insulated home
      they aren't worth the bother.

    
      I bought my set back thermostat for the convenience more
    than energy savings. I like to sleep in a cold room and my
    wife was always complaining the that the house was too cold
    when she got up in the morning. So instead of me getting out
    of bed at 5:30am to turn the heat the thermostat does it for
    me. I have a very tight house so I'm probably saving zilch
    but the convenience of having my heating/cooling system
    automated was worth the cost.
    
    -mike
    

    re: affect on wood
    
    It's the lack of humidity in centrally heated buildings that causes
    musical instruments (and other wood things) problems.  Temperature
    swings are not relevant (except to tuning, as noted).
    
    There are several documented cases of old organs from Bach's time
    (ca 1700, whose mechanisms are all wood) working fine to the present
    because they are in unheated churches in Northern Germany (climate
    similar to New England). Similar/identical instruments in the same
    climate have all but been destroyed in other churches who installed
    central heat.
z

    After reading all these replies, I've finally got to put in my .02.
    
    When we converted from oil to natural gas (It's a forced hot water
    system), Fitchburg Gas, who did the conversion, gave us a "set back"
    thermostat.  We believe that it does save a little because the furnace
    isn't running as often during the night; although it has to make
    up for it in the morning.  My house is well insulated and was always
    cheap to heat.  Our biggest savings however is by letting the sunlight
    come through our big windows which are on the south side during
    the day.  We have a full view storm door that is also on the south
    side.  The entrance has a ceramic floor.  When we open the door
    to let the sunlight hit the tiles, they get very warm.  Even on
    very cold days, they warm up from a strong sun.  Sometimes we even
    have to run a ceiling fan to circulate all this free heat.  Now
    if I could save all this heat for at night.
    

>          <<< Note 661.41 by BOSTON::SWIST "Jim Swist BXO 224-1699" >>>
>
>    There are several documented cases of old organs from Bach's time
>    (ca 1700, whose mechanisms are all wood) working fine to the present

      I  suspect  that "many" is more accurate than "several".  I'm also
      reasonably certain that this results from the type and quality  of
      wood used.

    HELP!!!!!
    
    I HAVE ELECTRIC BASEBOARD HEATERS IN MY HOME--THEY ARE CONTROLLED
    BY THERMOSTATS IN EACH ROOM--SO EACH THERMOSTAT CONTROLS A SEPERATE
    ROOM OR ZONE. I WOULD LIKE TO BE ABLE TO TURN THESE DIFFERENT ZONES
    ON OR OFF AT PRE PROGRAMMED TIMES VIA A PROGRAMMABLE THERMOSTAT--
    SO FAR I HAVE BEEN UNABLE TO FIND ANYTHING ON THE MARKET THAT WILL
    ALLOW ME TO DO THIS. I HAVE USED PROGRAMMABLE THERMOSTATS IN THE
    PAST ON CENTRAL HEAT AND AIR SYSTEMS BUT THEY WERE CONTROLLED BY
    A 12 VOLT SYSTEM--THESE BASE BOARDS ARE 220V AC. DOES ANYONE KNOW
    OF SUCH A DEVICE OR AM I GOING TO HAVE TO BUILD BY OWN.
    
    THANKS FOR ANY HELP!!!
    
    RIVERS
    

    I think you're SOL.  You are attempting to control a ditributed heating
    system the same as a centralized one.  I think they are too different
    to do that.
    
    [please don't shout all the time with uppercase - me ears are hurting]

Let me rephrase .0's question, since I'm looking for the same type of
device...

Does anyone know of a manufacturer that sells programmable thermostats
for 220 volt systems?

Also, re: .1, I don't think the original request was for centralized control,
as much as for SOME control.  Even if it meant buying a few of the devices,
one for each zone, it would be better than nothing.  

Bob

    Surely this question has come up before.  There must be answers
    elsewhere.
    
    I know of two solutions, both hacks:  First Alert markets a programmable
    thermostat controller that operates by manipulating the control
    on your existing thermostat.  It comes in two flavors, one for
    thermostats that are controlled by a lever, and another for thermostats
    that are controlled by a knob.  I don't know whether they can fit
    all existing thermostats, so you might have to replace your existing
    ones, as well.
    
    X-10, the people who make all the nifty devices for remote control
    of electrical equipment (lights, etc.) make a small heater that
    you mount underneath your existing thermostat, and plug into a standard
    X-10 appliance module.  Using your existing X-10 timer or computer
    controller, you turn the heater on and off as desired.  The heater
    fools your thermostat into thinking that the desired temperature
    has been reached; really you're trading off the massive heat and
    electric consumption of your baseboard heater for the small amount
    of heat and consumption of the X-10 heater.
    
    Or you can do what we're planning on doing: putting in oil heat.
    
       Gary

    I believe I have a catalog at home that has the thermostats
    you are looking for. I'll look tonight and contact you tomorrow.
    
    Electric baseboard heat can be set up for two types of thermostats.
    One arrangement is to use a standard thermostat to control a
    relay supplying the 220 VAC.  The other type uses a thermostat
    that directly controls the line voltage,ie, no relay.
    Do you know which type you have ?   If you have a relay, then
    any regular programmable thermostat should work.

    RE: .3
    
    For more info on the X-10 controllers...
    
    		RSTS32::X-10
    
    (�SELECT� or �KP-7� to add conference)
    
    Aaron

    
    In case anyone's interested, the following was the problem:
    
    The thermostats are bsically incompatible with the heating system.  Not
    just MY system, but nearly all systems in the Northeast.  I took them
    back to the store where I got them, and was told that they've gotten
    ALL of them returned by customers.  Same problems.  No fix available.
    
    The sad part is that they're STILL selling the things....

    Berko makes a whole house control system that will give program
    ability to zone (electric) heat systems. It does this by using
    the controls in the room and load shedding(disabling) the heater
    during programed heat down periods. Check American electric on
    west moreno they used to sell them. BTW-this system will probably
    require a rework of your present heat wireing layout.
    
    -j
    

    The Cadet Manuf. Company makes several models of setback thermostats
    for electric heating.  I have their catalog at work.  Send me mail
    and I'll send you a copy of the page with model numbers and
    descriptions.  The catalog does not list prices.
    
    Cadet Manufacturing Company
    2500 W. Fourth Plain
    P.O. Box 1675
    Vancouver, Washington 98668
    206-693-2505

    RE -.1    Which Thermostat are we talking about? 
    
    	 I bought  what  at the time seemed like a real good deal on a 
    RobertShaw at  Channel,  $19.99  on sale.  I didn't catch the part 
    about certain applications  until  I got it home but gave it a try 
    anyways.  But no go.  
    
    	 My symptoms seem a little different from what  everyone  else 
    described.  I have  a  gas  fired FHW system with a pilot ignition 
    and 2 24v Taco zone  valves.   These things say they draw .9 amps.  
    The thermostat says it will handle  up  to 1.0 amps.  I'm not sure 
    what the rest of the heating plant's electronics draw.  Well after 
    I got the thermostat hooked up (easy 2  wire  connection) I turned 
    on the override and the zone valve clicked on the furnace fired up 
    and the pump started pumping, all OK for about 45  seconds.   Then 
    the system shut down.  I figured it couldn't have warmed  up  from 
    70 to 80 in 45 seconds.  I let it sit for  a  while  and  about  5 
    minutes  later  the system came on again.  But once again for only 
    45 seconds.    This  continued until I disconnected the RobertShaw 
    thermostat and put the old one back in. 
    
   	 I never got  around  to  returning  it figuring it was just a 
    problem with compatibility with my system.  An figured I'd give it 
    to some friend or relative for a present.  I just hope it's not as 
    you  say a defective unit.  I still have  my  receipt  all  but  2 
    months old.
    
    	 Any thoughts?
	 
	...Dave  Who_wants_a_warm_bathroom_in_the_morning

    
    My Robert Shaw thermostat is guaranteed for 3 years, so if it's
    defective you can get it fixed/replaced.  In fact I may use it 
    myself, since I have found a minor bug in the thermostat, but
    I'm going to wait until summer.
    
    -tm
    

    Quick Comment:
    I called Robertshaw regarding the T60-1042 Setback Thermostat. It
    won't work on a Zoned Hydroponic system because the "zones" typically
    use a single 24v transformer.
    
    If the T60-1042 is used on its own dedicated 24v transformer; it
    would then work ok.
    
    I haven't worked out the details yet on "How To".
    
    Bob
    
   

    re: .72
    
    Ok, I called Robertshaw on their "tol free" support line, and this is
    what I learned. NO, the T60-1042/1044 CANNOT be used on zoned
    hydroponic systems. BECAUSE there is a prblem with putting TWO
    electronic setbacks on the SAME power source.  
    
    Person A at Robertshaw said that if a separate 24VAC source is used
    for each thermostat, then it is possble to use this type.
    
    Person B (on a second call) told me that the switch (for the control
    line) is rated at 1.5 amperes.
    
    The TACO zone controllers require 0.9 amps (900 milliAMps) at 24VAC to
    control the solenoid. 
    
    Based on this information, each 24v xformer would need to be 24VA
    rating (output). 
    
	Bob    
    

    I've got a real baffling problem with my setback themometer and
    gas heater.
    
    We used to have the standard Honeywell thermostat running our 1974
    circa gas heater.  Everything was fine.  Heating bill was high.
    
    We replaced the thermostat with (in order) 2 Robert Shaws, 1 *noisey*
    mechanical Honeywell and finally a Jameson set back thermostat.  The
    problem I am experiencing I perceived to be in the new thermostats,
    but I am coming around to think differently.  Here are the symptoms:
    
    The set-back will work fine for a week to a month.  No problems.  Heat
    comes on a designated heating windows etc.  Then, out of the blue
    one day, the heat will not come on when the thermostat tells the heater
    to go to work. 
    
    I've found that I can go to the heater where there is an electrical switch
    mounted in the wall (light switch type) that turns off the flow of 
    electricity to the heating unit.  Everything looks normal....pilot is
    lit, etc.  I flip the switch up and down about three times (on and off)
    and then on the fourth time, I leave it off for a couple seconds.
    Then I flip it on and wait.  After about 10 seconds I hear the whoosh 
    of increased gas flowing and igniting and everything is fine for the
    rest of that programmed heat period.  
    
    Sometimes this problem occurs more frequently.  For example, right now
    I currently have to go through this every time the heat is supposed
    to come on.  I don't think it is the thermostat's fault, but I could
    be wrong.  In all honesty, I have no idea what the problem is except that 
    the power surge seems to solve it.  
    
    Any ideas?
    
    Many thanks in advance.
    
    /brett
    

    
    Re: .17
    
    Brett, I tend to agree with you.  I doubt it's the thermostats.
    If you want to be sure, you could try putting your old one back.
    It sounds like it might be the controler on your burner, but 
    that's only a guess.  Next time it happens try pushing the reset
    button on your burner and see what happens.
    
    -tm
    

    Are you sure you have a 24VAC thermostat circuit. Many gas systems
    use millivolt circuits that won't work well if at all with electronic
    thermostats. Another way to check is to put a jumper wire across
    the 2 thermostat wires. If the system comes on, it's the thermostat.

    It has a transformer on the system that I assumed was 24 V.
    The transformer is definately fed by a 120 circuit from
    the breaker box.  I will check to make sure that the transformer
    is 24 V.
    
    I had a standard thermostat on it until I bought the set back
    type.  It always worked fine with the normal type.  If I put a 
    normal thermostat on, it will work fine.  If I touch the wires
    together (there are only two), I am fairly certain that it will
    come on. (will check)
    
    The only time the heat does not come on is at the beginning of the
    programmed heat period.  Once it come on at the beginning of the
    period, it will always come on when the temperature drops down
    to the bottom of the anomalie.
    
    Again, sometimes it works for a month or more without a glitch.
    I am really confused.
    
    Why does flipping the switch that controls the electricity to
    the unit make it come on???
    
    /brett
      

re:Note 1995.17             Relay for setback thermostat ??                17 of 20

    
>    We used to have the standard Honeywell thermostat running our 1974
>    circa gas heater.  Everything was fine.  Heating bill was high.
 
    Was this the "standard" mercury bulb type ?
       
>  We replaced the thermostat with (in order) 2 Robert Shaws, 1 *noisey*
>    mechanical Honeywell and finally a Jameson set back thermostat.  The
>    problem I am experiencing I perceived to be in the new thermostats,
>    but I am coming around to think differently.  Here are the symptoms:

    One thermostat or two ?
    
    If TWO setbacks are used, each one (Robert Shaws) needs to have
    its own 24VAC Bell Transformer source supply. 
    (There'd another note on SETBACK Thermostats where i explained this
    already.)
        
>    The set-back will work fine for a week to a month.  No problems.  Heat
>    comes on a designated heating windows etc.  Then, out of the blue
>    one day, the heat will not come on when the thermostat tells the heater
>    to go to work. 
    
    I had  a similar problem to this. Turned out to be  the relay driving
    the furnace motor was defective. Another time it was a defectve
    FHW pump relay (contacts).

>    I've found that I can go to the heater where there is an electrical switch
>    mounted in the wall (light switch type) that turns off the flow of 
>    electricity to the heating unit.  Everything looks normal....pilot is
>    lit, etc.  I flip the switch up and down about three times (on and off)
>    and then on the fourth time, I leave it off for a couple seconds.
    Then I flip it on and wait.  After about 10 seconds I hear the whoosh 
    of increased gas flowing and igniting and everything is fine for the
    rest of that programmed heat period.  
    
    Sometimes this problem occurs more frequently.  For example, right now
    I currently have to go through this every time the heat is supposed
    to come on.  I don't think it is the thermostat's fault, but I could
    be wrong.  In all honesty, I have no idea what the problem is except that 
    the power surge seems to solve it.  
    
    Any ideas?
    
    Many thanks in advance.
    
    /brett
    

   Just paging thru the latest copy of DAMARK catalog (Sept '89),
   I found a programmable thermostat on page 33 by a company
   called "Water Resources International, Inc." 

   This unit looks pretty nice, with automatic heat/ac switch-over,
   and a feature called "Automatic Duty Cycler", shown in the
   picture, but not explained.

   Is anyone familiar with this company?  If so, is the Auto Duty
   Cycler something like a pulsed gas feature?  The price is $29
   with a suggested retail of $79.

   Maybe if I can find out where this company is located, I can give 
   them a call with some questions.

   We presently have a Hunter programmable thermostat, but it is 6
   years old, and it can be "accidentally" programmed to a 3 digit
   setting (as a result of "key bounce") such as 667 degrees, if
   the 6 key "bounces".   The furnace tries to reach 667 degrees! (scary)

   Any other current/state-of-the-art models to consider???

   Thanks for the help...   Paul Gallo

    
    I like the Robertshaw brand, good quality, Spag's sells them for around
    $50.-, there are different models (with/without AC capability). A
    little involved to program (as bad as a VCR), but good brand (I've
    had mine a few years, and no problems).
    
    Fred

    I agree re Robertshaw.  I picked up a 7-day programmable with separate
    settings (4 per day) for weekdays, Saturdays and Sundays, plus three
    over-ride settings for $29.00 at Somerville Lumber about a year ago. 
    It works great.  There are other notes here that discuss programmable
    thermostats.  I suggest you do a dir/title="thermostat".

    Or better yet look at note 1111.54.  This is the listing of all
    notes with the keyword HEATING-THERMOSTATS.  No waiting for a search
    thru 33,500+ notes for a listing.  

    
    	First off - Please forgive me if theres a place this should go that
    	I dont know about 
    
    
    	I just bought a nice 60 year old center hall colonial.
    
    	It has a HUNTER programable thermastat.  Ive been programming
    	computers for about 10 years and I cant figure out how to program
    	the thing.
    
    	Does anyone have a manual for a hunter programmable termastat?
    		( I know - When all else fails read the manual)
    	Could I get photo copy?
    
    	any help would be appriecieted
    
    
    	thanks 
    
    	tom
    

    	I have three hunter thermastats in my home. I have 4 zones but
    these things get expensive. There are several models but the all
    work about the same. The access door has the basic info to program
    it...some of the other stuff maybe in the manual only.....BTW you
    can pick up the Hunters at Builders Sq. in Nashua. I'll look for
    my manual tonight when I get home. Assuming I find it I'll send
    you a copy through inter-office mail.
    
    

    Anybody recall seeing programmable thermostats at BJ's?
    
    John

    Can anyone comment on Stanley setback programmables?
    
    Caldor's has Stanley thermostats on sale this week at 50% off. 
    In the sale paper, two models were mentioned.  One was just a simple
    2 temp changes/day while the other had no description other than
    "Deluxe" model.  The first one is on sale for roughly $24, while
    the deluxe is $34.
    
    I'm curious about the deluxe.  (I'd assume it has 4 temp changes/day
    with independent 4 temp settings for the weekend.  Yes, no, maybe?)
    
    
    Thanks,
    John

     re: .74

>    Can anyone comment on Stanley setback programmables?

     I bought a Stanley (can't recall the model #) a few years ago and
     didn't like it for a number of reasons, the most significant being 
     the "real-time" programming requirement.  If you can do it right
     the first time, getting up at 4 a.m. to set the program and have
     a warm house by 5 a.m., it's not so bad but when you screw it up
     (as I did a few times) and have to do it several times before you
     do it correctly, it can get old.  Then there's having to adjust
     your schedule to allow you to get home an hour earlier than usual
     to program it again.  Perhaps they've changed this feature by now
     but if they haven't, I'd recommend staying away.  

     I bought a Robertshaw (model t60-1042 I believe...for heating only..
     no cooling) at Spags last week for around $35.00 and unlike the 
     Stanley, I can program an entire week's cycle at one time.  So far 
     it seems to be working fine and if given the choice (especially with 
     the price being about equal), I'd go with the Robertshaw.

     Milton

    Well, I went to the Methuen, MA Caldor at lunch only to find at
    least 2 dozen of the cheaper thermostats (Model 300) and zip of
    the deluxe (Model 600) type.  I briefly scanned the Model 300 box
    and saw what BUFFER::CHOW was talking about.  It seemed to imply
    the fact it had to be set at real time, but I find it hard to believe.
    Heck, even the cheap timers people use to turn on/off living room
    lights don't need to be set at real time!
    
    I wonder though, if Caldor actually had any Model 600 thermostats
    at all at the start of the sale (yesterday).......
    
    Still very curious about that Model 600......
    
    John

    If anyone is interested - Somerville Lumber has an Emmerson set back
    for A/C and heat, with weekday and weekend programs on sale for $39.95
    + tax.
    
    We originally had a Honeywell (cost us approx $60 4 years ago) which
    gave out plus we lost some of the pegs.  So, we've been looking around
    for a new one, that didn't have pegs!  The Emmersons that we found at
    local True Values were  from $97-$107. 
    
    When I saw the add for Somerville, I checked it out.  We bought the
    thermostat and installed it last night.  It was really easy to install
    and program.
    
    joyce

	Well it's almost that time again - time for another heating season to
start. However this heating season I figured that a set back thermostat might
be just the thing my townhouse needs to cut those heating bills down just a 
little. After reading through quite a few of the notes in this conference, they
all seemed to indicate that if (and I do) you had all-electric baseboard heat,
there are no set back thermostats which could run on line current. 

	This is NOT true. Honneywell makes a line current thermostat which
should work great for anyone out there with electric baseboard heat. The unit
came out about 1-1/2 years ago, and should do the trick. There are two models,
one for 2 wire homes and one for 4 wire homes. The model number (from memory)
is something like 948s-1017 (this is a 2 wire unit). Anyway all you have to do
is give an electricial supply company a call that sells Honneywell - and they
should be able to get it for you....

	If your stuck will electric heat (Condo/Townhouse) this might be the
way to go.

								-mike-

> re: 397.73                   Set-back Thermostats                      73 of 77

> the T60-1042/1044 

Problem:  Going through 9v "backup" Alkaline batteries about 1 per month

I  called  Robertshaw  support  line,  and asked them about the Thermostat
"eating" backup batteries.

What they told me was that I could expect the batteries to last "about" 24
hours in normal service.

They then asked me whether or not the  main power was ever turned off.

Well, in my area, we  lose power "about" one to two hours per month, a few
minutes here and there.  Their  response  was  that  if  my  power is that
unreliable, then in their opinion I should  use  a  mechanical thermostat,
because the power is "off" too much.

I had a heck of a time trying to have  them understand that 1- 2 hours per
month does not equal 24 hours per month, but to no avail.


In my estimation, it seems that the power supply (AC to DC conversion
circuit got fried), and it "runs" off battery power for the timekeeping
functions.

-Bob

    
    
    When my steam boiler runs low on water it shuts off the AC to 
    the burner and the thermostat.  If you have any kind of automatic 
    shutoff device on your boiler that could be the problem.  I assume
    that your thermostat runs OK without the batteries when the power
    is on, right?
    
    -tm
    

There are some kinds of furnaces/boilers that cut the power to the thermostat
when it is on.  Often a hydronic system with zone valves will do this (though
the one I just had installed apparently doesn't).  Also, I believe that
so-called millivolt systems won't supply enough power to run the thermostat
so that you use the batteries all the time.

Sears sells for about $14 a transformer-relay that can be used to provide
24VAC to the thermostat at all times, for such situations.

				Steve

I've had a similar problem with my thermostat, I can't offhand
remember the brand name.  It turned out to be that the order in
which you install the battery and hook up the voltage from the
heater was critical, get it backwards and the stupid thing thinks
the battery is the heater and vice versa.  The manual does not
give this warning, it only says to follow each step carefully.
Took several batteries to figure this one out.

I've been very happy with the Sears "Weekender" thermostat, which is actually
manufacturered by White-Rodgers.  I had one in my old house and just installed
two in my new home.  They've changed it a bit and lowered the regular price,
but it retains all the features of the earlier model.  Very flexible and
reliable.

				Steve

Steve,

I was looking at the Sears thermostat. It now has a seperate
memory for cooling. You can program the thermostat for heating
and cooling so when the warm season comes, you just switch the
control to "cool".

It now runs on three AA batteries instead of the old 9 volt.

Cal

     I've misplaced the manual for my Sears thermostat, and forgotten how 
to set the amount of time it keeps the burner running after the setpoint 
has been reached.  Can somebody tell me?  It has something to do with 
holding TIME-FWD and TIME-BACK at the same time, maybe?

Re: .83

Exactly.  It used to be that you had to change the program when you switched
modes.  I don't care for the change that moves the mode and fan controls from
slide switches to the membrane buttons, but that's not a big deal.

Another change which I wish hadn't been made is that in the new model, when
you use the up and down buttons to temporarily alter the temperature from
what the program says, it resets to the program setting after two hours.
In the earlier model, it would switch at the next program change.  Of course,
in "hold" mode it keeps the temperature steady.

I like the programmable anticipator and the built-in compressor protection
circuit.  It's just a nice, easy to use thermostat.

				Steve

Re: .84

Yes, that's the one thing that's not obvious.  You press and hold the
TIME FWD and TIME BACK buttons simultaneously.  The anticipator setting will
be displayed, and as you hold the buttons, it will advance through the settings.
The defaults are HEAT 5 and COOL 11.  They recommend a setting of HEAT 15
for FHW systems, which seems to work well.  I haven't found it necessary
to change the settings on the FHA system.  The higher the number, the longer
the system will run.  I recall it also said that a cooling setting lower
than 10 is not recommended.

			Steve

    re .7
    Someone recently contacted me by mail looking for some info
    from the Cadet catalog I mentioned in the previous reply.
    I could not locate the catalog at that time, but since have found
    it.  So, if that individual reads this and wants to try again, I
    am holding the catalog for you.
    
    Ernie Mondou
    Mighty::Mondou

    Honeywell makes a programable line voltage setback thermostat. I used
    one this winter and was very satisfied. Just got 2 more. I got them thru
    McNally Supply in Worcester. They have to be ordered. 1-2 week
    delivery. They cost about $70. I think the model no is 487. The one
    I got was for a 4 wire installation. I installed it myself. It took
    about 5 minutes to replace the old one. It's very attractive to boot!!
                                                     

    I have a Minivector thermostat made by Chatham Brass Co. The problem is 
    the battery for the timer is drained. Where can I get a replacement
    battery or get it recharged?? It is a Sanyo Cadnica N-100AA 1.2V 100ma
    
    Help??
    
    Dave

    Sounds like a standard AA Ni-Cad battery.  Try Radio Shack.
    
    I presume that the thermostat recharges the battery under normal
    conditions (I once had a RobertShaw that did this).  But after a
    few years, the NiCad loses its ability to keep a charge and has to
    be replaced.
    
    			Steve

    
    	But I think you'd want to try and match up the current rating
    	as closely as possible to the 100mA that the batteries are
    	rated at.
    
    	Looking at the RS catalog, they only list 600mA batteries.
    
    							GTI
    

    Check some of the local hardware stores, I have seen the replacement
    Nicads for the Honeywell set back thermostats hanging in the same
    racks.  It seems that the batteries don't last much beyond 2-3 years.
    The batteries for the Honeywell unit has wire leads that you can
    splice in to the Honeywell (and Robert Shaw) units.  I don't
    remember the voltage rating.
    
    1.2 VDC and 100 ma sounds like a AAA rechargeable.  Typically the
    AA's are 1.2 VDC and 500 ma.		
    
    Ed
    

    I tried Radio Shack - but no luck.
    I also tried Sommerville Lumber to no avail - Someone told me to try 
    Newtonville Camera, so I will give that a bid.  
    
    Keep those suggestions rolling in.
    
    Dave

    When you say "no luck", are you trying to find an identical (that is,
    Sanyo brand and model number) battery?  You won't find it.  I would
    use a standard AA Ni-cad cell, such as Radio Shack sells under their
    own brand name.
    
    				Steve

    If you are in the Newtonville area try You do it electronics, they are
    usually high in $ but at least you will get what you need.  Bring the 
    battery with you the people there will cross reference it for you.
    

You-do-it is actually in Needham.  According to their ad in the yellow pages,
they're off 128 ("take exit 19A, turn left at Gulf station").  (617) 449-1005.
No, I've never dealt with them.

    You-do-it is in Needham at the Newton Falls(?) line. Very visable
    from RT128 (1 exit south of Rt 9). Open 9 to 9 last time I was there.
    And ss an earlier note stated, there's a good chance they'll have 
    the part you're looking for, but not at a discount price.
    
     - John

    Not to put a stop to your search for the battery locally, but I never
    did find one that fit my setback thermostat; I eventually ended up
    calling up Honeywell and ordering it from them (it solders into the
    thermostat; I didn't take the Honeywell shrink covering off to see what
    kind of batteries are actually in it), after wasting several evenings
    trying various central and eastern Mass. places.  I did NOT think of
    trying U-Do-It (which we usually call You-Blew-It because they often
    don't have in stock stuff that they do have in their catalog, causing a
    wild-goose chase).  Honeywell mailed me one in less than a week.  The
    setback thermometer has been in place for about ten years, and that is
    only the second battery pack, so they seem to last for quite a while.
    
    /Charlotte

You-blew-it has lots and lots of stuff in stock, but I have never gotten any
advice, help, or customer assistance from them.  The average Rat Shack
employee is more helpful.  If you know exactly what you need, You-blew-it 
*may* be able to supply it, but if you don't know exactly what you need, 
neither do they.

    This seem to be the right place to ask this -

    Does anyone know of a Set-back thermostat for a HEAT PUMP?  Every
    set-back thermostat I've seen says it cannot be used with a heat pump. 
    A friend of mine just bought a condo that has a heat pump with aux heat
    and would like to put a set-back on it.  Is one made?

    Thanks!

    -Bob

Set-back thermostats are usually a bad idea for heat pumps, as large
swings in the set temperature can cause you to use the resistance element.

			Steve

    Those of us that are into radio control, cars, planes, helicopters etc
    have come in contact with a company called SR Batteries, Box 287,
    Bellport, NY 11713,  phone 516-286-0079.  They specialize in Ni-Cads of
    all sorts.  Give them a call and I'll bet they cal help you out.
    
    Chuck
    

      The  following  information is/was posted elswhere in this or some
      other notes file.  I copied it on 18-oct-1988, but edited out  the
      info on note number and conference.

           A  new  setback  thermostat  made  for heat pumps is now
           available.  Below is the info.  They are  expensive  but
           then again they may be worth the cost.

                Digistat HP2000
                American Stabilis Inc
                P.O. Box 1289
                Lewiston, ME

           Starting up to 2 hours before setup time this thermostat
           ramps the temperature up from the setback temperature in
           0.5  degree increments This way it avoids turning on the
           backup heating source.
  

    Thanks for the information!
    
    -Bob

    We have an ancient steam boiler and old thermostat (no labels we
    can find to identify the brand). We bought an Emerson EQT-170
    1F70-353 setback (mechanical) thermostat. Our system was clearly
    not on the main list of systems the thermostat could not be
    used on (millivolt, heat pump, etc.). My father-in-law (a
    carpenter) was going to install it, but when he checked the
    voltage on the existing system he got 29 volts. So, first
    set of questions - is a five-volt difference enough to worry
    about? It was enough to stop him... Does this mean we have
    some unique type of system, or a 24-volt system operating at
    less-than-optimum?

    Anyway, I took a look myself today. The instructions include this
    note:

    Your old thermostat may have terminals marked B[...] If B is used
    (wire connected to it) this thermostat cannot be used. [...]
    Exception: on Honeywell Series "10" thermostats, with R, B, and W
    terminals only, combine R & B leads together and proceed as if
    it were a single wire.

    What I found included two terminals on the left with wires connected
    to them, with labelling indicating they were for the clock. There
    were also B and W terminals with wires connected, and a R label
    near a couple of holes in the plate but no terminals. There was
    also a fifth wire not connected to anything. So, my other set
    of questions - assuming the voltage difference isn't a problem,
    is this thermostat compatible with the system? Since there's no
    "R" lead to combine with the B, can I just use the B? Or should
    that unconnected wire be used?

    Thanks, Mike

Mike,

The 29 volts is open circuit voltage so 29 volts when loaded will
probably read in the range of 23-25 volts. Most of the set-back
thermostats have voltage regulators that ensures correct
operating voltages at the electronics. Mechanical devices are not
subject to the voltage sensitivity.

cal

>    What I found included two terminals on the left with wires connected
>    to them, with labelling indicating they were for the clock. There
>    were also B and W terminals with wires connected, and a R label
>    near a couple of holes in the plate but no terminals. There was
>    also a fifth wire not connected to anything. So, my other set
>    of questions - assuming the voltage difference isn't a problem,
>    is this thermostat compatible with the system? Since there's no
>    "R" lead to combine with the B, can I just use the B? Or should
>    that unconnected wire be used?
    
    B is used on Heat pump systems for teh heating changeover valve
    or on some conventional systems with a Damper control.  What
    the thermostat probably does with this is by the reverse use of
    the anticipator, close the damper a short while after the
    burner turns off.  Joining R & B would close the flue damper
    as soon as the thermostat stops requesting heat and teh burner
    shuts off, not allowing any remaining gasses to go up the flue.
    So, I cannot really see that this is a good idea, even if the
    thermostat allows you to do it.  Presumably, the current rating
    to drive the burner relay and the damper control would be too
    high, which is why most thermostats say not to use B.
    
    So, presumably, on this existing thermostat, they are using B
    in place of R, and my reaction would be to use R & W.  Check
    that your furnace does not have an electrically controlled flue
    damper.  If it does, then presumably R & B were effectively
    joined at teh furnace and called B.
    
    
    
    After a little under a year of using a set back thermostat made
    for Canadian Tire, when I came to use it this year, I found that
    when the stat called for heat, the furnace fan would come on and
    not the burner, so I went back to my trusty manual round stat.
    Ha Ha!  The anticipator was up the creek on that and, even if
    you turned the temperature requested up some 15 degrees, the
    anticipator would turn the burner off before the furnace reached
    the fan on limit setting of 130 degrees!
    
    For the set back stat, this was the second one of the same model
    installed.  They use alkaline batteries, and the first one would
    apply about10V ac to the batteries.  Ever seen an alkaline battery
    leak?
    
    Anyway, I looked at a similar model, made by Hunter, to discover that
    the innards were identical to the Canadian Tire model (these are all
    relatively cheap compared to the top names).  The neat thing about
    these stats was that they actually monitored the heat on time, and
    you could display the time the burner ran for today and yesterday.
    
    It turns out that, particularly in the case of furnaces with
    high voltage ignition (most oil) or electrostatic ignition, you
    could get spikes induced on the thermostat lines which would
    fry the uProc.  Apparently to operate the heating safely, you need
    another 24V transforrmer and an isolation relay.
    
    So, after messing around with these cheapies, I spent some bigger
    $ and bought a Honeywell CT4000A.  It offers 4 programmable time
    periods per day, labelled on the stat as Morning, Day, Evening and
    Night (Easy for the wife to understand :-)).  One program for
    weekdays, one for Sat and one for Sun.  And then the same thing
    for cooling programs.  This stat runs off 3 AA cells and has internal
    relays buffering the stat from the furnace circuits.  No more
    fried uProcs for me!
    
    It also offers deg F or C and 12 or 24 hr clocks.
    
    A similar stat is the CT2400E which they claim can be used for heat
    pumps without aux heat.
    
    Stuart.
    
    

I have a dead Sears Weekender II.  It worked well for 4 seasons.  Anybody
ever try troubleshooting one?  Of course, you'd need a schematic.  I'm wondering
if it's worth it, since I can buy a new one for $45-50.    

Are these things meant to be disposable, and not repairable?

Would Sears charge me more than the cost of a new unit to repair it?

Steve
    

    .93:
    
    Is the Honeywell model you mentioned roughly squarish, something like
    5 to 6 inches on a side, and very inobtrusive in appearance?
    
    Dick

    It is still rectangular, but less so than say the Sears ones ... it
    has rounded over ends and a swing out door which hinges on the left.
    It's got a "softer" appearance than some.
    
    You say "was considering" ... something make you change your mind
    (apart from price ???) ?
    
    Stuart

    It was indeed the price.
    
    A Honeywell, of unremembered model, featuring 3 setbacks/day and
    "decorator styling", costs $89.95 at Spag's (where else? ;-) --
    a Robertshaw with 2 setbacks costs $44.95, if I remember the prices
    correctly.
    
    The amusing thing was that they carry the Robertshaw T-1044 (heating &
    cooling) for $45, and the T-1042 (heating only), for the amazingly
    lower price of $42!  I suspect that the difference is that the heating-
    only simply uses a single-throw controlling switch, and may omit a
    couple of other components.
    
    Dick

    Well, I didn't mind the price too much after running the cheapo's
    back twice and there being very little on the market inbetween the
    cheapies and the expensive ones.  Not to mention the fact that while I
    could have had others for aroudn $100, the additional transformer and
    isolation relay would have set me back about an extra $40.  Sears
    Weekender up here was around $100 and the Weekender II was $149 ...
    they wanted isolation relays too ... There are a few private
    brands for around $75-100, needing an isolation relay, so the $139
    Honeyuwell made somwe sense.
    
    There was also the matter of my heating contractor putting a disclaimer
    on faulty non-name brand thermostats which cause furnace problems.
    
    
    
    Stuart

    Had there not been some satisfied Robertshaw users commenting here,
    I would have ponied up the additional bucks for the Honeywell.  (And
    if mine proves less satisfactory than theirs, I doubt that I'd want
    to risk another go-round...)
    
    Dick

    I have a Sears Weekender II I just installed.  It works fine except for
    the fan control switch.  It works fine in "AUTO" but the fan does not
    come on when you switch it to "ON"  (constant run).  There were only two
    wires for me to connect, red and white.  Any ideas?
    
    Thanks 

    With only two wires, the fan control switch on the thermostat cannot
    possibly work.
    
    I would imagine the only fan control on your furnace is provided by
    the limit switch on the furnace (which will usually have a fan control
    lever poking out of it, or some other way to get manual fan control).
    
    To wire for full fan control, what you would need is a 24 V
    transformer (or confirmation that the load on the burner control
    transformer is low enough to give you manual fan control), a 24 V
    fan control relay in a case.  The fan control relay will be wired in
    parallel with the limit switch, and the relay coil will be driven 
    Switched by the therrmostat.  Note that the fan motor 110 V cannot be
    switched directly by the thermaostat.
    
    So, to put it simply, if you want remote fan control at the thermostat,
    unless you know what you are doing, you would be well advised to call
    in a heating contractor.  Beware that incorrectly connecting wiring
    to the fan limit switch (which also contains the furnace over-
    temperature cut-out could accidentally disable a furnace safety
    feature.
    
    Stuart

    If you only have two wires coming to your thermostat, you
    probably have a heating-only system, as opposed to a combined
    heating/cooling system.  (Then again, perhaps you have a heat
    pump of some flavor?)
    
    Most of the Sears setback thermostats I've seen will work
    with either a heating-only or a combined system.  The 'stat
    usually has two switches, one labeled AUTO/OFF/ON for the
    fan control, and another to select the system (HEAT/COOL).
    
    In the last Sears 'stat I installed on a heating-only system,
    the instructions said to place little stop pins (supplied) in
    certain holes of the backing plate which would block movement
    of the fan switch into the "AUTO" position and the selection
    switch into the "COOL" position.
    
    As .-1 said, you need more than two wires to control the temp
    and the fan.

    Thanks for the replies.  I only have two wires and heat only (FHA Gas).  
    I can live without the constant-run fan, the system and thermostat work
    fine in the "HEAT" and "AUTO" settings.  There was nothing in the
    manual mentioning that the fan "ON" setting would not work on heat only
    two wire systems, so I thought I'd ask about it here.  
    
    Another question though on the anticipator feature.  It doesn't seem to
    make a whole lot of difference what this is set to as far as how long
    or short the furnace runs.  The manual is real vague on this too.  What
    I'd like to do is set it so that the cycle -between- runs is a little
    longer.  Right now the thermostat is keeping the temperture dead-on,
    but the short cycles between when the furnace goes off, and then back
    on again is a little annoying.  I could live with a 2� variation in
    temperature if it meant a little longer time between on cycles.
    
    Thanks
    

Anticipator is the duration between the thermostat turn-off the
flame and when the fan stops. If the anticipator is set too
short, the furnace-fan will shut off and come on again. The
preset will work fine in the Weekender (as in the one that I
have).

calvin

    Almost, Cal ...
    
    The anticipator in the thermostat allows the thermostat to turn off
    the burner before the air has reached the actual requested temperature,
    because there will still be some usable heat for distribution because
    of the thermal mass of the furnace and the ducts.
    
    If the anticipator is set for too much anticipation, the temperature 
    will not reach the requested temperature, and will thus tend to short
    cycle.  If the anticipator is set for too little anticipation you will
    tend to overshoot the requested temperature and the burner will tend
    to run for longer periods, and then off for longer periods.
    
    The fan on/off controls are set by the fan limit switches on the
    furnace itself (usually a small box near the top of the actual
    furnace).  What this switch will do is turn the fan on when the
    temperature in the furnace reaches a pre-set temperature (usually
    about 150 F) and turns it off when the temperature in the furnace
    falls below the lower limit (usually around 120 F).  These only
    determine how long the fan is on.  The temperatures above are what
    are called the high range, and tend to waste a lot of heat up the
    chimney, and put a lot into the basement.
    
    Modern practice is to set the limit switches at about 120 for on, and
    90 for off.  THis extracts far more usable heat from the furnace,
    although towars the end of a run the air from the registers may tend to
    feel a little cool.  The reason for not turning the fan on until about
    120 is two fold ... one to avoidblowing too much cold air, and also
    to ensure that the stack temperature increases quickly to ensure a
    good draught and thus safe and efficient burner operation.
    
    .-2
    
    The setting that you are thinking you are adjusting when you talked
    about the anticipator, is actually called swing or hysteresis.  On
    most thermostats this is not adjustable.  This is the temperature
    that you allow the temperature to fall before turning on the burner
    and is generally about 1 to 2 degres F.  Larger swings will tend to
    make the burner run for longer periods, but can be uncomfortable.
    Too small a swing will cause short cycling as well.
    
    Stuart

    I'm having a problem with my Sears Weekender II.
    
    The problem is when heat is called for the display on the thermostat
    goes out and the heat stays on until I manually shut it off by
    switching the switch to off. After a few seconds in the off position
    I can turn it back on and the display returns showing the current temp
    but the programmed temp is not displayed until I press either of the
    temp up/down buttons.
    The obvious problem/danger here is the fact that it keeps supplying
    heat until the heater melts down, house burns down or I stop it.
    (the first time this happened was in the middle of the night I woke up
    chokeing it was so hot in the house 90 dgrees and climbing!)
    
    I have replaced the BBU with no change in symptoms.
    
    Per the owners manual it says if the display goes blank the unit is
    loseing voltage from the limit?  If so what is the limit and would the
    problem be the limit or transformer for the furnace/limit?
    
    The furnace is a signature 75,000btu FHA roughly 13 years old.
    
    ADVthanksANCE, gort
    

My electronics knowledge is limited but voltage loss usually implies bad 
connections in my mind.  Try cleaning all available connections.

Stan

    
    rep.106
     Why worry about it?? Take it back to Sears. They will replace it
    with a brandy new one that works.

Does sears have a lifetime warranty on their programmable thermostats, like
craftsmam tools?  

Re: .109

No, they don't.  I believe the warranty is for one year.


The thermostat is clearly losing power.  Some control systems don't
provide 24V to the thermostat while the furnace is running; for these, you
need a control relay.  Sears sells these for about $15; they look like a 
plug-in transformer, you run wires from the thermostat to the relay, and
another set to the control box.  The relay does the switching and makes
sure the thermostat is fed 24V continuously.

I have this particular thermostat, and it has worked well for me for two
years.  It does have the peculiar attribute that when it is calling for
heat, the "on" LED will cycle on and off, but this doesn't seem to affect
it otherwise.  I do have zone valves, which can cause some thermostats
problems.

				Steve

    Have you checked the batteries or tried a new set?
    

    I haven't checked the connections yet but will try to do that asap.
    
    The thermostat is well out of the warranty period I purchased it 7
    years ago though I imagine that if I really wanted to push it they
    would replace it. It has worked fine for the whole time it has been in
    use up to the end of the last heating season. 
    Replacement of the battery diden't change anything(FWIW-the one I
    replaced was 7 years old) I thought I might have drawn duds when I
    bought the replacement but a 2nd new battery failed to effect a fix.
    
    Other than the fact I have to manually turn the heat off the rest of
    the system seems to function normal the burner cycles on/off, the
    blower blows and the thermostat keeps proper time.
    
    Somehow I'm inclined to believe the problem is not the thermostat
    rather the thermostat is being effected by a failure elsewhere in the
    system.
    
    Thanks for the replies, -j
    

    
     .109 is probably correct. I would take it to them and try. I 
    exchanged mine w/o a receipt and the new one has been working w/o
    a failure for about 3 years now.
    
     I just purchased two more of the to use in our addition. I think that
    they keep the temp. very well regulated and I didn't want to have to 
    remember how to program more than one kind.:-)

    A colleague suggested that I post this...  It Works!
    
    Problem: Auto set back thermostats are expensive and I couldn't find
    one that works on my 110 volt system.
    
    I live alone in a large victorian house... empty from 7:00 am to 6:00
    pm.  I don't like to be cold.  (I'm also cheap)
    
    Solution: Put a night light under thermostat on an extension cord to a timer
    
    Set it to go on at 8:00 am off at 5:00 pm  on at 11:00 pm and off at
    4:00am.  Results: the house is warm when I am up and about and colder
    otherwise (the thermostat thinks the house is warm when my 4v light is
    on)  the savings Tremendous! Heck even the lack of the frig going on as
    often pays for this quickly..  
    
    This is a money saver... not to mention the environ.
    
    Bob

    Actually, this is the way that the early Heathkit programmable
    (mechanical) setback worked. It had a small bulb in the thermostat
    housing that "fooled" the unit.
    
    Eric

    That's the trick we used in government buildings after good old Jimmy
    Carter had all the thermostats locked at 78 degrees in the summer. 
    Kept the offices nice and cool!

How would it work in the summer?  I can see in the winter, the heat just wouldn't
come on and the outside cold would cool the house.  But in the summer?

Ed..

    it would make the AC stay on longer by warming the thermostat above the
    ambient temperature

    re:.0
       What's so expensive about a set-back thermostat? I got mine at Sears
    for $50-$60. I don't think that's too bad. It even has a different
    program for weekends.
                                   Denny

        Hi -  I  have  inherited  a couple of Sears Weekenders with the
        heating system in  the  house we bought, but the seller left no
        manuals for anything.   The  Weekenders  are the type where you
        hold the Time Forward and  Time Back pads to change anticipator
        settings (can't remember which model this is) and they have the
        rectangular  quartz  digital  display  with  the  heat  up/down
        buttons  on  the right side of the display and  the  fold  down
        panel concealing the controls.
        
        Question - would anyone please care to photocopy/let  me borrow
        the manual/instructions for the thermostats?
        
        Thanks in advance!
        
        Andy Fraser
        MKO1-2/D04

    Andy if you can't get them here, call Sears.  They'd probably be
    willing to send you a copy.

I've got two, I'll send Andy one.

		Steve

       Sears will 'sell' you a copy. Haven't yet had them offer to give me
    one free of charge for anything.
                                     Denny

        Thanks for the replies folks, including the very helpfull Email
        from Chris.
        
        Steve - that's very kind of you - much appreciated!
        
        Andy
        

    For future reference, the Sears part number for the Weekender
    thermostat owners manual is 37-4477A.
    
    			Steve

    I have read the whole string of replies here but still have a few
    questions about these foreign heating devices... (I'm Swedish)

    I just moved (I'm renting) into a place that has a Gas furnace and
    radiators that is heated by steam. They make sounds...

    Anyway, the place has one of these little round thermostats on the wall
    (one) and I would like to replace it with a gismo (I like those!)
    preferable the fancy programmable one. Now, what do I have to do to
    minimize my trips to the HW store? I know I have two wires going into
    the gas furnace but that's all I know. It seems to me that the ones
    that fits on the existing thermostat is the easiest to install but
    there was almost no mentioning of those in this string. Do they come
    with the 4/day/weekend programming?

    Another question is, how do you get the old one off the wall? I didn't
    see any obvious screws?

    Peter

    Pry off the surrounding bezel ring; the screws will be underneath.
    Almost any of the setback thermostats will work.  Be sure to read all
    the instructions before disconnecting any wires!  Remove one at a
    time, note which terminal it went to on the old thermostat and mark
    it with a piece of tape.
    
    				Steve

    
    The other thing you might need is a small spirit level to level
    up the replacement thermostat.  Check the furnace to see what type
    of ignition it has.  Some of the setback thermometers are not
    recommended for spark-ignition - the Robertshaw model for example.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    

    Once upon a time, I was also renting an apartment with one of those
    round thermostats and paying way too much for heat.  I went to the
    hardware store, with the brand of the thermostat and the furnace.  One
    of the salespeople showed me what there was to pick from, given the 
    thermostat I was replacing.
    
    THe instructions in the setback thermostat included every detail of how
    to get the old one off, and keep track of the wires (after shutting off
    the fuse).  It also told you really really basic things like how to tell
    that you shut off the right breaker.  This  was an extremely easy
    project.
     

    re Spark Ignition ...
    
    Yes, this has the habit of doing in electronic programmable stats.
    I have a Honeywell programmable stat that will work with spark
    ignition.  It has small isolation relays that actually do the
    controlling.
    
    I blew up 2 regular programmable stats until I discovered the problem.
    The spark ignition transmits too many "spikes" on the 24V tyhermostat
    wires than the electronics in the stat can handle.
    
    Stuart

    Sears sells an inexpensive ($15) transformer/relay which can be
    used to control troublesome furnaces from programmable thermostats.
    The transformer supplies 24V to the thermostat and switches the
    relay as the thermostat wants.
    
    				Steve

    Hi!
    	Has anyone heard where I can purchase an intelligent thermo-stat
    	which will generate a phone-call to me if the house goes below
    	50 degress ?
    
    Thanks
    Pete

    I've heard of such a thing - not a thermostat, but a separate device
    that will call preset numbers under certain conditions, one of them
    being low temperature, and play a recorded message.  I haven't seen
    it advertised in a while, though.  Not much help, I realize...
    
    			Steve

     
    There are home security systems that will contact you for various 
    reasons including water in the basement and temperature drop.
    
    								- mac

    Radio Shack had such a device for a while, then discontinued it.
    It could autodial under pre-programmed temp conditions (high,low)
    and give you a voice synth. message.
    
    Another vendor may have picked up the design.
    
    	Dave.

All you need is an autodialer and a thermostat.
If you want to alarm for high temperatures, use a thermostat
for heating and cooling.  That provides a contact closure on temperature rise
as well (you need two thermostats for to get both).

    Northern Hydrualics, a mail order catalogue company has both autodial
    freeze sensors......I believe they were in the $50 range. If I can
    remember, I'll bring their catalogue in tomorrow to post the part
    number and NH's 800-number.
    
    Jonathan

    
      I HAVE that unit from Radio Shack. It is perfect for keeping track of
    a vacation house when you aren't there. It will call you (and up to
    three MORE people) if the temp goes too high, too low, if the power
    goes out, or if there is a break in (If you connect it to door switches
    or such). All of the parameters are easily set and you can even call it
    up and IT will answer the phone after some number of rings (Also
    setable) and TELL you the current conditions.
      It works great. Its made by DuoPhone and I have seen THOSE
    units for sale in other places. Its too bad Radio Shack stop selling
    these units. It was the best $100 dollars I ever spent.
    
    				Kenny

    DuoPhone is Radio Shack's brand name for its telephone products.
    The unit was made for Tandy by someone else.
    
    				Steve

    
    Ah, sorry! The correct name is NUtone. They are the folks who have been
    making house electric/electronic stuff forever. Lighting stores carry
    their stuff.
    
    				Kenny

    I saw a product to do this in the new catalog from Global Computer
    Supply.  I don't have the catalog here, but it's usually not too hard
    to track down one of them.  The device was expensive, $280, but did all
    that you want and more.

    ---Phil

    Has anybody done research evaluating the current models of programmable
    thermostats. I was at Home Depot yesterday and saw:
    
    Honeywell - $54 - $83
    Robert Shaw - $32 - $54
    Hunter $23 - $54
    
    I'm basically looking for something compatible with a two wire FHW
    gas fired heating system, to replace the round manual Honeywell 'stats
    that are >20 years old. The primary finctionality I need is:
    
    - 4 or more set back during weekdays
    - 2 or more setbacks weekends
    - vacation overide
    
    Any input on acuracy, reliability, price value would be appreciated.
    
    JBS

I don't have any of these (we have a cheapo no-name brand).

My brother bought a Hunter this summer for his gas FHA and AC system.  It was
less expensive than the others ($27?) and he has not had any problems with it.

My mom has a Robertshaw, I think the 1000 model, around $30 at Spag's.  She has
it on an old FHA system, has had it a year, and has not had any problems at
all with it.

Hope this helps.

Elaine

    
    I've had the basic $35 Robertshaw for about 5 years now with no
    problems.  It has all the features you mention and performs fine.
    Batteries last about 18 mos. 
    
    One thing to watch out for is that not all of these are compatible
    with spark-ignition systems and only work with pilot-light ignitions.
    
    Colin
     

    We went through 2 hunters in our place before I put
    back the regular thermostat. During the winter
    there would be so much static electricty from walking on the
    rug that touch the hunter cuased some major static discharges
    when I touched it. I actually blew out 2 units from the
    shocks. Pretty cool if it wasnt such a pain. 

	FYI, Consumer Reports rated thermostats at some point during the
	past year. Probably worth a trip to the library to check it out.

	Roy

    We have Hunter Seat-n-Save II thermostats.  We installed them 2 years
    ago and think they do save money over the manual Honeywell thermostats.
    I haven't had a battery die yet so batteries last atleast 24 months.
    My one gripe about the Hunter is that it will maintain the set point
    temperature only to within 3 degrees.  This is a fairly wide
    temperature variation.  For example, if you set the temp to 66, it'll go
    to 63 before cycling the furnace and warm  the room to 69 before
    shutting off.  The higher end Hunters are accurate to 1 degree. Of
    course they cost motre and have more features but I didn't want to
    spend that much on thermostats.(we have 4 zones)
    
      
    
    	The 1995 Consumers Reports annual buying guide has a short listing
    of setback thermostats.  I think the full listing and report is in some
    94 issue.  I believe a Robertshaw($90) was rated #1.  Our Hunters cost 
    about $35 this time of the year.   You'll be paying for the number of
    setbacks and the temperature accuracy.  The programming is very simple
    and I like having the time displayed on the thermostat.  There is an
    "up" and "Down" button for manually increasing or decreasing the temp.
    and the "new" temp only lasts till theend of thecurrent programming
    cycyle.  If I raise the temp to 70 at say 8PM, it'll automatically go back 
    to it's setback temp at the end of the current cycle.  For us, that would 
    be 63 at 11:30PM.  I think most setback thermostats have this feature.
    	  

    
    We have the Robert Shaw's, but my situation is a bit different than
    most in here.  I live in Arizona, and get a special rate to not use
    electricity from 9am to 9pm.  What I try to do is cool my house to
    about 68 by 9am, and my AC won't go on until 2 or 3 pm, when it's set
    to 82.  
    
    The thermostats were about $65 each.  I have two heat pumps, so they
    were a bit more, and I figure I saved myself just on the cost of
    foregetting to reset the thermostats once before going to work.  They
    did seem to save about 30-40 a month in the summer, just by being able
    to pre-cool.
    
    Bruce

    
    
    > about 68 by 9am, and my AC won't go on until 2 or 3 pm, when it's set
    > to 82.  
    
    Do I really want to hear this on a freezing new England Morning? :-)
    

�    I'm basically looking for something compatible with a two wire FHW
�    gas fired heating system, to replace the round manual Honeywell 'stats
�    that are >20 years old. The primary finctionality I need is:

Let me know if you're planning on pitching your old round manual Honeywell.  I'd
like to replace the manual control on my wood furnace (but not so much that I'd  
be willing to spend any money on it.

								-- Chuck Newman

    I also installed Hunter Set-n-Save II thermostats, and we also see the
    wide temp variation.  And I would prefer to have 4 set points for 
    weekends, at least for the bedroom.  But, they do the job.
    
    General gripe - on both this and an electronic timer for our porch
    light, I feel that the versions we had in our old condo were better -
    those older generation units had slightly better user interfaces, and
    the subtle differences are annoying.
    
    You probably ought to consider each zone separately - I've got 5 zones,
    and only installed them on 2.
    
    \chuck

    
    We have had a Hunter set and save??  for 2 years also.  Ours
    goes on when it is 1 degree low and off when it is 2 degrees
    high...
    
    Set at 68, on at 67, off at 70.
    
    My Father's works the same way.
    
    Amy

    I have the Hunter set and save II. Heating system is forced hot water
    fired by gas. Simple 2 wire hookup. Works just fine. I notice about a
    1 degree low/2 degree high difference from the set point. Don't
    consider it a problem. Thermostat placement has alot to do with it.

    According to Consumer Report, the HoneyWell is more accurate. It has a
    temp swing of 1 degree. The Hunter has a temp swing of up to 5 degree.
    All others has temp swing of 2 to 4 degree. The HoneyWell Magic Stat
    was their No.1 choice. I bought one at Home Depot yesterday for $58 and
    installed it in less than 10 minute. Setting it up is quick easy. I
    wish it has 4 programs instead of 2 for the weekend.

> We went through 2 hunters in our place before I put
> back the regular thermostat. During the winter
> there would be so much static electricty from walking on the
> rug that touch the hunter cuased some major static discharges
> when I touched it. I actually blew out 2 units from the
> shocks. Pretty cool if it wasnt such a pain. 

	Hmm, interesting.  When I first got my hunter set&save II
	i never blew the unit, but the static electricity did
	cause the unit to reset (and hence forget all my programming).
	After I started using a humidifier in the winter time however
	I haven't had a problem since (and the more humid air makes
	it feel warmer than dry winter air).

> My one gripe about the Hunter is that it will maintain the set point
> temperature only to within 3 degrees.  This is a fairly wide
> temperature variation.  For example, if you set the temp to 66, it'll go
> to 63 before cycling the furnace and warm  the room to 69 before
> shutting off.

	Wow, that's a 6 degree range!  Like the previous noters, I
	have a Hunter Set & Save II that has a range of 2.0 degrees.
	Ie. if set for 66, it will kick on when it reads 65, and off
	when it reads 68.

	That may sound like a 3 degree range, but remember that when
	the room is cooling down and the unit first reads 65, the actual
	temp is probably more like 65.9.  And the same when heating and
	it reaches 68, the temp is probably like 68.0 (of course however
	even after the heat turns off, it warms up slightly more as
	the rest of the heat radiates from pipes/fins).

	What I really like about the Set & Save II is the usage monitor.
	It keeps track of the "on time" for the current day, previous day,
	and since it was last cleared.  Tuesday for example I know that
	the themostat called for heat 3 hours and 41 minutes in that 24 hour
	period.

    My setback thermostat had such a wide temperature range that it made
    things pretty umcomfortable - I would believe that it had a 6 degree
    variation.  We found ourselves putting on and taking off sweaters as
    the thing cycled the furnace.  I guess this was some designer's idea of
    how to make the furnace run more efficiently - it is gas-fired forced
    hot air anyhow.  We took the thermostat apart and found that it had an
    uncalibrated control for the temperture range before it cycled the
    furnace on or off.  We tweaked that a couple of times and life became a
    good deal more comfortable.  I have a very old, very simple setback
    thermostat, made by Honeywell.  It has NiCad batteries to keep its
    clock running (we've had to replace the battery, which is an oddball
    one available only from Honeywell but not expensive, twice over the
    yars), and little pegs you plug into pins on the clock face to control
    whether the furnace is in warm mode or no-one's-awake-anyhow mode. 
    There is an override button on the bottom you can push to switch the
    current mode.  I leave it set for 60 degrees at night and 68-70 degrees
    when it is in "warm" mode, which is from 7-8:30 in the morning and from
    5:30-10:30 at night.  The furnace very seldom comes on at all when the
    night time setting is in use - the house is very heavily insulated.
    
    /Charlotte

	Went to Builders Square today looking for a programable thermo for 
	my house, I have FHA, with a heat pump. The Square only had 
	Honeywell "Magic-Stat" type programable thermo's, and *none* were
	compatiable with heat pumps.

	I went to HQ, they have Hunter "Set-n-Save" type, only one model was 
	compatable with heat pumps (the $98 unit) but they have not had them 
	in stock for over 7 months.

	Basically I've got two questions:

		What is the big deal with using a programable (set back) thermo
		with a heat pump?

		Why are they so hard to find?

		And why....Okay 3 questions, I have 3 questions...

		And why are they so expensive...?


	Steve T.

Heat pumps have more control signals.  Also, with heat pumps, the best setback
approach is to increase the setpoint slowly, rather than jump as a normal
setback thermostat will do.  Otherwise the heat pump will decide that you
need the resistive heating element on which will cause you to use MORE
energy than you would have without the setback at all!

I've often seen it suggested that setback thermostats are rarely a win for
heat pumps due to their slow temperature recovery.

					Steve

    You'll probably find lots more choices in September.  
    These are considered a "seasonal" item  - at  least
    that's what I was told at Home Depot.

>>I've often seen it suggested that setback thermostats are rarely a win for
>>heat pumps due to their slow temperature recovery.

	I guess that this suggests thats its better, in a heat pump application,
	to maintain a constant temp, rather than allow the temps to rise 
	during the day when no one is home, and cool the house prior to 
	someone actually being home?

	I've noticed on weekends that the A/C will cycle on and off to maintain
	the requested temp quite frequently, and I don't really want that to 
	happen all day while no one is home. Since there are some programmable 
	thermo's that allow use with heat pumps, I assume that the problem of 
	gradually changing the temp (increase/decrease) has been addressed by 
	the maker?

	On my current system, the only way I can make the resistive element 
	kick in is to move the selector to the "aux heat" position, which kicks 
	in the resistive element, am I correct to assume there is no method of 
	auxiliery cooling? In other words no resistive or auxilery element for 
	cooling?

	The need for more advanced controls explains the added expense to the
	heat pump approved units, but not the lack of availability.

	Steve T.

You may have better luck if you go to any electrical supply house, rather than a
homeowners lumber house like BS, HQ or HD.  You may also get higher quality and
more knowledgeable salespeople.

Elaine

    and perhaps even better prices!
    
    ed

	Thanks, I have looked at electrical supply houses, and prices are not
	substanially better, but the units are avialable.

	I'm still trying to decide if this the way to go, in a heat pump 
	application, any Heat Pump users out there with "set back/programable"
	thermostats?

	I'm still unclear how this type of thermostat will affect the air-
	conditioning. I don't believe there is a seperate "resistive" element
	for cooling, so programable thermo's should not be a problem with
	the A/C, only during heating, correct? And if the thermo is designed 
	with the heat pump in mind, then it will raise the temp more 
	gradually, correct?

	Right now I'm leaning towards getting one, but would like to hear some
	opionions prior...Thanks again

	Steve T.

    
        Hi,
    
        I did a dir of this topic and read lot's (not all) of the replys.
    
        Like a lot of the replies I'm replacing an older round honeywell
        mecury switch thermo.  with a digital programmable unit.
    
        The one issue that I'm wrestling with is the batteries.
        
                -  What happens when they die (If for some reason  I
                   don't have a replacement handy, - do I pull the
                   thing off the wall in order to switch my heat on?)
    
               -   How often are people finding they need to be
                   replaced (the batteries).
    
        Thanks.
    
      

The unit I have (The White-Rodgers sold as Sears "Weekender") has a fail-safe
mode where it will revert to a preset program if the batteries fail.  The
manual controls work regardless - the primary power comes from the furnace,
not the batteries (which serve as a backup of the program and clock in case
of power failure.)  I would expect most other units to be similar in this
regard.

				Steve

	Thermostats typically get their power from the
system itself - they use battery power to run the electronics
and clock, and as long as they're LCD display types, this won't
be much of a load.  I use an older mechanical-clock honeywell that
has a nicad in it, and it works fine as long as it's not turned off
for very long times, like an entire summer.  My Sears electronic
unit has a low-battery light that'll warn you if it's getting low,
but mine's been running for years without trouble. 

>                 -  What happens when they die (If for some reason  I
>                    don't have a replacement handy, - do I pull the
>                    thing off the wall in order to switch my heat on?)

	My Hunter programmable uses two batteries.  Supposedly I'll
	get a low-battery indication and you can change one battery
	at a time as to not lose the programming info.
   
>                -   How often are people finding they need to be
>                    replaced (the batteries).

	I've had mine for about 3 years and have yet had to change
	the batteries.

    re .145                                          
    
    A good programable thermostat for a heat pump system can't help but pay
    for itself.  Both by making sure that emergency heat comes on when it
    should, and by permitting setback without resistance heat comming on
    during recovery.
    
    We have had our heat pump now for one heating and cooling season, and
    are now ready to finalize the control system.
    
    Our heat source is a drilled well (1100 feet, ouch!), and the heat pump
    is a five ton unit, we can either dump the water to a leaching pit, or
    return the water to the well.  In addition to the heat pump we have a
    water coil in the return air duct where raw 55 degree well water can
    cool the air to about sixty degrees.  For cooling this brings the total
    to about seven and and a half tons of cooling.  For emergency backup
    there is 20 KW of resistance heat.
    
    The programable Tstat can be programmed for four periods a day, seven
    days a week.  I would not want any fewer periods for heating.  For
    cooling I use the programability very little.  We found that we could
    set back to 64 at 10PM, increase to 66 at 6 AM, 68 at 11 AM, and 72 at 
    4PM, at not use any resistance heat.  Using this schedule also worked
    for the well as we could dump all the water in the leaching pit,
    providing the warmest water for the heat pump, about 54 degrees during 
    the coldest part of the winter. 
    
    
    Attempting to recover more than about four degrees at a time would
    cause the resitance heat to come on, and for the well pump to run about
    twice as long.
    
    We actually had more experimentation for cooling as we could cool with
    just by pumping water and air, use the refridgeration, or both.  The
    well was a consideration as we knew we could remove 6 GPM 24 hours a
    day seven days a week, but with both the water coil and refridgeration
    we needed 20 GPM.  The solution was to adjust the dumping to the leach
    pit to about 8 GPM and return 12 GPM to the well when both were on.
    
    The EERs were about 22 for water and air, 12 for both, and about 9 for
    just the heat pump.  At the start of the cooling system, I tried using
    just the water and air, and this worked OK if it was left on all the
    time.  But running 1.5 KW 24 hours a day adds up too.
    
    By the end of the season our method of operation was turn the
    system off when we were out of the house, and run both with the
    compressor set to turn off at 76 when we were there and wanted cooling.  
    Shortly after the system is turned on, about 10 minutes, the dew point 
    drops dramatically so that 76 is comfortable.
    
    We needed the thermostat to turn on emergency heat a couple of times
    during the winter as one of the water valves was plugged by sand, and
    a safety on the compressor would trip.  The algorithym used is if the
    actual temperature is more than four degrees lower than the set point
    or if the temperature is more than two degrees lower and has been for
    thirty minutes then the resistance heat comes on.
    
    In summary a good thermostat will allow a heat pump system to use set
    backs, and turn on the emergency heat when the compressor fails or more
    capacity is needed.  The last place to save any money on a heat pump
    system is the thermostat.  Also the thermostat has a four minute time
    that will not permit the compressor to restart after it has shut off.
    
    

>     <<< Note 397.150 by QUARK::LIONEL "Free advice is worth every cent" >>>
>
>the primary power comes from the furnace,
>not the batteries (which serve as a backup of the program and clock in case
>of power failure.)  

Actually, the batteries power the thermostat while heat is pumping.

In a simple two wire system (heat only, no separate fan or A/C),
the two wires feed a high impedance 24 volt level to the thermostat.
When heat is called for in the room, the two wires are shorted together.
(This is exactly what happens in a simple bimetal, mercury activated
passive thermostat.)
The shorting signals the heating system to provide heat, but it also shorts 
out the 24 volts, leaving no system power to run the thermostat.
(The "high impedance" aspect of the 24 volts is to current-limit the effect
of shorting the wires at the thermostat.)
So the batteries take over, holding the clock settings and the program.
I have had occasions when my batteries have been weak and didn't fail UNTIL
the heat turned on.

Steve is right - when batteries fail, the thermostats (that I have seen)
do go into a fail safe mode - normally 70 degrees, with no clock or
setback ability - just like a simple passive thermostat.

- tom]

re .154:

>>the primary power comes from the furnace,
>>not the batteries (which serve as a backup of the program and clock in case
>>of power failure.)  

>Actually, the batteries power the thermostat while heat is pumping.

Not necessarily.  My setback thermostat gets power from the furnace
even when calling for heat.  It has a step-up transformer in series
with the furnace contacts which supply it with power when heat is on.
The result is the circuit as seen by the furnace is not a simple on-off
switch, there is a 1-2 volt voltage drop when calling for heat from the
transformer winding, but this doesn't affect anything unless the supply
voltage was marginal to begin with.

It works fine with the battery totally removed, other than instant programming
loss if the power goes out for more than a microsecond.

-Mike