Conference 7.286::home_work

    I put in a note awhile back regarding my basement, but now I have
    a new problem. 
    
    I have started digging out the dirt section of my basement with
    the hope of putting in a cement slab crawlspace in there. However,
    as I dig out the dirt, I have found that certain sections of my
    foundation only go down about 2 to 3 feet.
    
    Should I dig to the base of those sections and then put in a 3 inch
    slab or should I leave the dirt there. 
    
    I'm mostly worried about the foundation weakening from the removal
    of the dirt.
    
    Any ideas:
    
    jim
    

    A friend of mine dug completly around the inside perimeter of his
    8ft high basement wall, several inches below the bottom of the wall
    without any problems. This poured concrete wall didn't even have
    a footing. He did this work to solve a basement water problem.
    
    He later filled in the trench with only pipe and stone and has not
    done anything else with it for at least a year. No problems so far.
    He has plans to cement over the top of the trench when satisfied
    that he has solved his water problem.
    
    It is obvious that to UNDERMINE large sections of wall would
    put a lot of stress on your wall. But I imagine it would be OK to
    dig adjacent and below the wall.
    
    I poured the basement floor in my house and I remember that it is
    important that when you pour to come up a couple inches on
    the wall to 'lock' it in place.
    
    Steve

    I don't think I will be going underneath the wall at any points.
    But just in case I have to, would you suggest digging the dirt
    completely away and puttint blocks under the wall to support it?
    
    I would hate to have to break up the cement later to fix any problems
    such as sagging. 
    
    Just for my own information, what would it cost to jack up the house
    and pour a new foundation. Approximately.
    
    jim

     Think about putting black plastic in before you pour the cement.
    Should inhibit water seepage up.
    
    
    			herb
    

    Are you sure you want to go through the hassle of doing it yourself?
    When we had our 3/4 acre ripped up, the 'dozer operator was poetry
    in motion.  Years of experience really show when using heavy machinery.
    It might just turn out cheaper to hire the operator and his rig
    for a day.  Check out the prices.
    
    -joet

    Nat Hawkins Jr. on Neck Rd. in Lancaster is pretty good.  For a
    real artist, call Steve Perry in Harvard (I think).   Both quite
    competent.  I investigated renting some equipment like that once - 
    only marginally more expensive, if at all, to get somebody to come
    by the time I added in the cost of delivering the machine (you
    ain't going to pull a bulldozer on a trailer behind your Honda,
    or even your Toyota pickup truck!) and Steve Perry was, as JoeT
    says of his operator, "poetry in motion."  
    A good equipment operator is incredible.  I once saw a guy setting
    flagstones with a backhoe!  He was showing off, but even so....
    
    Steve

  It's also true that if you rent the bulldozer, you are responsible for
  damages.  I'm told that they allow some general wear-and-tear, but 
  bulldozer are expensive to fix...  

  JP

    The rate around there should be about $40-$45/hour for a
    backhoe, $45-$75 for bulldozers, and probably up to
    $100 for big shovels.  If you don't need much work done,
    your main concern might be finding someone who won't
    charge you for an 8 hour minimum for bulldozers.
    There will probably also be $50 to get it there.
    
    I had excavation done yesterday right up to my foundation
    with a very big bulldozer.  I couldn't believe how well he
    could drive that without touching the foundation wall and
    only getting a little Caterpiller-yellow paint on my deck.
    

Something else to consider in hireing a dozer and operator.
Be realistic about the size of the job, a smaller dozer may
be cheaper by the hour to hire BUT it may take more hours
than a larger machine that cost more per hour. As my 
brother-in-law has always said, "use the right technology
for the job".  
   
bill

    Now that I've rented a Bobcat, I'll change my response to
    this note.  I rented one to backfill my foundation.  They're
    very easy to use and the work goes fast, after you spend the
    first 2 hours getting use to the machine.  The cost was $150 for
    a day, or 1 1/2 days if you rent it for sunday.  Bobcats can
    move boulders up to about 6 feet across and can lift boulders
    about 3 or 4 feet across.  They're a little tippy but after a
    while you get to know how to go up and down hills with 4 wheels
    still on the ground.
    Having done it once,  I now don't think I'd ever hire an
    excavator again.  The cost of having someone do it would have been
    $600.
    

    I have about half an acre of brush and tree stumps to clear out
    so I can plant grass. I would guess a bulldozer would be best for
    the job. Does anyone know of someone in the Dunstable area who does
    this kind of work at a reasonable price?
    
    - Rich

    
    
    I don't know anyone in the Dunstable area but Dick Coke in Ayer
    is EXCELLENT with a dozer.....Maybe he'll go up there!
    
    good luck!
    

    My husband runs equipment for Charbonneau Bulldozing in Pepperell.
    I asked him if they'd do it and he said to call Paul, the owner.
    They do excellent work but you may have to pay a little more.  He
    also suggested another guy but can't remember the name at the moment.
    This other man is also out of Pepperell.  I'll try to get the name
    for you tonight.
    
    Paul's number is (617) 433-2082.
    
    Can't hurt to give him a call.
    
              Cheryl
    

I have hired Dave Butler to work on my lot in Groton, with excellent 
results.  I believe he lives in Groton (and if not, certainly in a
neighboring town -- I could get the phone # if interested).

Bob

    Is there any new house building going one in your neighborhood?
    I needed some quick backhowing, and was able to get a guy who was
    doing a lot down the street to do it for $100.  If you can do this,
    you will save $$ because someone else is paying the travel time;
    most guys are minimum 4 hours.
    -reed
    

    Funny you should mention that Reed. My neighbor is having a ceptic
    tank put in and I need a new/larger dry well....so I was planning
    on approaching the backhoe operator this weekend. Hope I get a good
    deal too.
    						/Glenn
    

    While on the subject, is a dozer the right equipment for turning
    a part time swamp into a real pond (say 5'-6' deep)?
    
    __Rich

    RE:. 6
    		I believe a backhoe would be better, since you want
    dig the swamp deeper to form a pond but also use the dirt removed
    to build up the ground surrounding the pond. I've been considering
    doing the same, since I too have some "part-time" swamp land
    on my lot (Damn those ancient cranberry bogs!) Anyway, before you
    even attempt it, you'll definitely have to contact the DEQE for
    approval. My neighbor was slowly filling in his swampy area
    and the DEQE jumped all over his case. I'm not really sure what
    the DEQE requires of you, but if you happen to find out, please
    let us know.
    							/Glenn
    
    

    
    re: .6,.7
    
    Sometimes, a backhoe won't do it. We're going to have to bring in
    an excavator as the arm on the backhoe isn't long enough.
    
    

    re: excavators .-1
    
    How much do they cost w/ operator?  Have you found one? 
    
    Any comments on the DEQE or local wetlands commissions?
    
    __Rich

    Many town bylaws will allow the contruction of a wildlife pond in
    a wet area on your property. Check the wetland maps for your
    town and the buffer zone amount around which you are allowed to
    do work, this is usually about 100' around the wetlands. If you
    want to do anything within the buffer zone you will have to involve
    the town conservation commision. If you are doing work outside that
    area, DON'T call them. You may run the risk of having them declare
    your property as wetlands in which case things become almost
    impossible.
    
    I know it, happened to me.

    
    Nick

    re .7, .8 - I'm still not sure I understand why the backhoe or
    excavator is necessary - though perhaps I'm being confused by the
    specifics of my own similar project.
    
    If the swampy area is solid enough for the 'dozer to crawl through,
    can't he just scrape the muck up from the bottom of the area to
    become pond, and push it around the adjacent area(s) to be built
    up?  That was what I'd been hoping to do...
    
    and thank goodness I'm now in NH and don't have quite the degree
    of restrictive government to deal with.  I have heard that there
    is some state agency in NH that needs to be advised, but doubt that
    it's as much of a problem as the Mass DEQE - does anyone know what
    regulatory concerns I'll have to face when I try to do this project
    in NH this summer?

    The dozer operator should be able to tell you whether or not he
    will take his equipment in. Bulldozers aren't known for their ground
    clearance and can get bogged down in mud. Once they are stuck the
    operator has to play games using the blade to lift the front end
    and rolling logs under the tracks to try and get traction.
    
    Just pushing the muck out of the way may allow the water to begin
    to fill the hole before he can get the machine out. Most of these
    guys have more than one piece of equipment (dozer, backhoe,..).
    Have them come over to give an estimate of the type of equipment
    needed and the approximate time it will take.
    
    Nick

I am now digging 10 holes for the footings of a deck, which will be
detached from my house.  For most of the project, I have the help of a
friend who's in the construction biz; after laying out locations for the
footings, we agreed I would dig the holes.  He says I should go down
three feet or until I hit "ledge," or, if you will, bedrock.

My basic question is: how do you know you've hit major ledge or bedrock?
In at least one hole, I'm currently stopped by something that's either
ledge or a DARNED big rock!  Is it enough just to hit a very big boulder
that's not going anywhere (apparently)?  This thing won't move!
I should also mention that the hole in question is about 6-8 inches SHORT of
3 feet.

I am working with a spade and iron bar now, but intend to rent a manual
post-hole digger when I get a bit further along.

Additional information: the site is North of Boston, just about where
the cities of Malden/Medford/Melrose conjoin.  The area is pretty well
known as very rocky--lots of ledge, some of it visible above ground
in my yard and especially in my next-door neighbor's yard.  These out-
croppings are uphill from my deck site.

So whaddya think?  I get the feeling I need to find a Geology major who's
dug for deck footings out there somewhere.  Many thanks in advance for
your input.

				Steve G

    The key is to get below the frostline so that the columns won't
    heave and tilt all over the place.  The frostline is the average
    depth that frost will penetrate in the winter.  This differs by
    locality and severity of the winter (snowcover), etc...You should
    be OK at about 3 feet.  Check to see what the current wisdom is
    with your neighbors or construction people in the area.
    

    
    
     If you have hit a VERY large rock then it is safe to assume that
    the bottom of the rock is below your 3 foot minimum depth. If this
    is the case then it is safe to pour your footings directly on the
    rock/ledge/bedorck.    
    
    
    
    Glenn

Many thanks for all your info and advice.  The holes have turned out
OK--all except one to within a few inches of 3 feet, and that one is
bottomed by good, solid, flat rock which is only a few inches away
from a big outcropping of ledge.  Other places, I've got big, immovable
masses of rock which, fortuitously enough, are just about at 3 feet.

BTW, I can't recommend too highly the rental of a post-hole digger for
this type of work.  I frankly was not sure how well it would work on
my rocky ground, but for 6 bucks a day decided to give it a try.
Unexpectedly (to me, anyway) it actually "tweezes up" some pretty big
rocks--softball-size and larger.

    We have a builder's sink hole in our yard which is widening/deepening
    with each passing year (we've been in our 12 year old house for
    8 years.) It appears to be in the general area where our gas pipes
    and electrical wiring (underground) are coming in from the street.
    We spoke with a landscaper this summer about filling it in and he
    was to return with an estimate.  His estimate turned out to be a
    polite note saying he'd rather not tackle the job! 
    
    Does this sound like it's going to turn into a gruesome situation
    involving the gas company, a backhoe, and big bucks?
    
    All suggestions gratefully appreciated.

Why not just buy a bunch of topsoil and dump it in the hole!  You didn't say
how large it is but it can't be THAT big, can it?  For a couple of hundred bucks
you can get close to 20 yards of dirt which you could spread in a day or two by
hand.

-mark

    Any ideas of why the holes happening, did the builder bury all the
    junk from the construction and site clearing of trees in that area.
    To find out if your utilities in MASS you can call 1-800-dig-safe
    tell them your going to do some landscaping back there and would
    like to know where the utilities are. Both the gas Co and elec company
    will come out and mark the lines coming into the house for free.
    Its a law in MASS that before you begin any type of construction
    digging, landscaping, etc that you do this. I wouldn't go dumping
    more soil on the situation. If it's sinking like you said it might
    be pulling the gas and elec and what ever's there with it more soil
    might cause harm than good. I would get it marked off by dig safe
    then talk to the gas and elec company reps for some advice before
    doing much of anything else. Also, if you have a water main in that
    area have your town mark that off too.
    
    
     
    

    In a past life I worked for a landscaping company and saw a few
    'practices' that could very well be your problem.
    The builder of the development was backfilling the utilities trench
    with whatever scraps happened to be laying around. As you would
    guess within 2 years you could tell where the lines were buried
    from the depression above caused by settleing.
    
    -j

    Anyone care to give a "Soil 101" lecture?  When digging 4' deep
    holes for my deck footings I encountered many different colors
    of "dirt" (along with about a zillion boulders).  Ranging from
    top to bottom we saw black, gray, brown, and orange colors.
    
    I'm sure the colors indicate the soil composition - can anyone
    explain (for example) what causes the orange color?  Some kind
    of iron oxide compound?  Any particular aspects of each type of
    soil?  A better conference in which to inquire?
    
    Not sure if the taste varies between colors . . .

    There was an article about soil color in a back issue of Fine
    Gardening a while ago...no idea which issue though.  I don't
    recall too many of the details, but one major point was that
    color of soil is no indication of how well things will grow in
    it.
    
    The orange may well be from iron oxide (rust).  The darker colors
    near the surface are probably from decaying organic matter.  The
    actual fundamental soil color may be the same, but it may have been
    dyed a darker color from pigments leached out of the organic matter
    (if it's not the organic matter itself).  Gray tones may be the
    basic color of the powdered rock and sand that make up the bulk of
    the soil.
    

You might try LDPSCI::GEOLOGY or PICA::GARDEN.

    re.0
    
    As far as a different tast. Before the days of scientific soil
    analysis, soil was tasted. A sweet soil had a hoi PH, and acidic
     had a lo PH (I beleive). Read it in Organin Gardening

    	 i'm shortly going to start an addition on my home. Today
    i called "Dig Safe"....they informed me that i'll be allowed to dig,
    start construction in 3 days. I'll be the General Contractor, and i
    do have the building permit from the town. my question is, what happens
    if i start earlier ? i do know where the gas and water enter my home,
    they are located on another side. I will not be near any Electric or
    Telephone Lines...
    	can they inform the town and Mr Building Inspector ??
    
    
    
    frank 

    
    No, they won't tattle to the town -- but you might be liable for a big
    repair bill if you happen to hit anything.
    

>    No, they won't tattle to the town -- but you might be liable for a big
>    repair bill if you happen to hit anything.

I would imagine that you'd still be liable for a repair bill if you hit some-
thing even if you wait 'til the appropriate time.  A permit to build/dig is 
just a license to do so ... It doesn't exonerate you if you do damage.

    
    Not according to the contractor who built my addition. He said that if
    he digs where Dig-Safe tells him it's OK to dig, and hits something,
    the damage is covered.
    
    A Dig-Safe blessing is not a permit -- it is indeed an exoneration if
    you do damage where they told you that you wouldn't.
    

Wow ... I've never heard of such a thing ... That's great ... What does it cost?

>>Wow ... I've never heard of such a thing ... That's great ... What does it cost?

Dig-Safe is free.  I called right after I moved into my house (Merrimack NH). 
Even though I had pictures of every underground service that was put in, I
wanted to cover my ass.  I ended up not coming near the marks they put down.

bjm

    The City of Colorado Springs has a like service as does the telephone
    company both free of charge. The phone number for the city is located
    in the blue pages the telco number in the first few pages of the book.
    
    
    -j

In New Hampshire, you call one number and they take care of notifying all the
utilities.  The number is published in the phone book on the "Doing Business
With Us" pages in the front.

			Steve

    Looking for updated opinions on this topic.  To DIY or to rent
    the  machine&operator...that is the question.  We found one rate
    to be $190 per day (no operator) plus delivery @ $50 an hour 
    for a John Deere 350.  Of course that sounds outrageous to me but
    does anyone have any ideas on what IS reasonable for a fee?  We're
    located in Wilton, NH which is about 12 miles west of MKO.
    
    carol 

    My though would be hire it done. A good operator can do in a few hours
    what may take you days. If you are trying to grade a lawn you can
    easily end up with a wash board. Rough clearing would be a different
    story.
    
    I've used a person here in Merrimack who gets (or was getting)
    $50.00/hr for a John Deere 550. He regraded the rear of our lot. Did a
    great job. Not sure I could have done it as flat and smooth by hand.
    
    He also has a backhoe (Ford 750?) and small excavator about equal to a
    CAT 215.
    
    Peter Duke
    
    
    This person is not a relative nor is there any compensation for me for
    recommendations.

    
    What about puchasing a used piece of equipment, using it for
    months/years (weeks or days probably wouldn't be $$$ concience),
    then selling it to recoup the initial cost ? 
    Theory :   Purchase a used <whatever> for $9000.
               use it for 1 year (fuel &
               maint costs ??)
               Sell for                       $8500
                                           ---------
               net cost                       $ 500
               (plus fuel & maint)
    
               or about $1.37 a day (assuming 365 day/year)
               plus maint & fuel. 
    
    if it takes you a week to learn how to use it - so what (except the
    weeks lost time of 'practice').  Is that weeks time worth $100 - $200
     or $300 and hour to someone else ?   if you have a lot to do (that 
    this particular piece of equipment can handle), it _might_ be worth
    your while to consider something like this.
    
    K-

    One thing wrong with that.....  you end up keeping everything!
    Now I have a dump truck,hoe,dozer and started another house
    project!!!!!!  But it sure is nice to finish something and figure
    it would had cost you $500 or the neighboor has a little side
    job....
    
    JD

    I suspect .8 is right; you can probably find somebody who can do
    a much better job than you could, in about a quarter of the time,
    for about the same money as renting.  It may take a bit of looking
    to find a good price, and I suspect this is the busy season so
    prices may be higher, but I'd certainly explore that option.
    
    Of course, if you want to rent one just so you have an excuse to play
    with a bulldozer, don't let me discourage you...!  ;-)

Depending on what you want to do, track length plays an important part in 
your selection process.  Don't use a short dozer to grade a yard, no matter 
how good the operator says he is....because he isn't good enough to do it 
right with the wrong equipment.

    
    
    Ohhhhhhhhh.....I wouldnt go as far as to say cant....  I did a lot
    of yard work with my MC, which is a short and small machine.  Might
    have taken a few more passes, but I just had to rake out the small
    stones later to finish out the job...
    
    JD

    I was taught by an old timer on how to grade with a short tracked
    machine. Drink as much of a 6 pack and don't recycle it. You'd be
    surprized how your kidneys can tell you if something is level....
    
    That was with a Model 10 cat. The D6 was a little easier to level with
    but it was a little too big for grading around the house..
    
    TMW
    
    

A stint as an oiler on a Gradall gave me an appreciation for what one can 
and cannot do with a short track dozer.  The number of grades the Gradall 
had to fix after the short track dozers had done their level best was 
orders of magnitude above those where a decent sized machine had been used  
ESPECIALLY AFTER IT RAINS ONCE and things settle.

    A lot depends on your standards of "level", too.  With my lawn, 
    almost anything would make it more level than it is...but to
    me it's acceptable, bumps and holes and all.  I can't get too
    worked up about lawns.  It's flat enough so the tractor doesn't
    get stuck mowing it.  

>    worked up about lawns.  It's flat enough so the tractor doesn't
>    get stuck mowing it.  


How often does the mower scalp the top corners of the holes?

If you're going to spend money to rent heavy equipment, the incremental 
increase in the rental cost for the appropriate equipment will save you 
many dollars worth of aggravation in years to come.

Then, again, you can always go back next spring and fill in all the 
depressions with hand raked loam and start your lawn all over again.

Your mileage may vary......

    Protecting against breathing polyurethane:
    
    Anyone know what kind of mask might work to
    help filter polyurethane fumes?  There will
    be floor work going on next door in my building
    and I am super-sensitive to the fumes.
    
    Thanks...

    If you are that sensitive to them, leaving for a while is the best
    option... I treat the masks as a way to help problem air, not eliminate
    it. 
    
    If you really want to go with a mask, get a good industrial quality
    activated charcoal filter mask. American Optical makes a good dual
    canister unit that I've used and like. It is not comfortable for long
    term use, though... Few are.
    
    Good luck. 
    
    Chris
    

    Thanks, that's the info I need!
    (I am vacating the premises for the 5-7 days but
    need to stop home for a short while each day)
    
    --Blue

	If this is a neighbor that you are on good terms with maybe you can
suggest that they use water based poly.  The fumes are much, much less intense.
And, it dries faster so maybe they can finish up quicker.

George

    If it was a neighbor I was on good terms with, I'd ask
    that it wait until summer   :*)
    
    (unfortunately, this is a neighbor with an attitude.)
    
    thanks for the suggestion...

The neighbor is probably unlikely to switch to water-based just for this
reason.  There are many who feel that the water-based products are inferior
for floors (I like them for other work, haven't used them on floors.)

					Steve

    Water based poly does not stand up on floors anywhere as well
    
    
    				/Dave

    re. : -1
    
    Are you saying this based on personal experience, or heresay? I just 
    refinished 300 square feet of wood flooring using the water-based
    urethane. The can said that it was as durable as the solvent based, so
    I am anxious to see how it will fair.
    
    
    /brian

    I used it twice, 2 different brands (Aqua fabulon with catalyst, and
    parks the second time) BOTH times this stuff did not hold up as well
    as poly. My new house with hardwood floors used poly, and will continue
    to use poly
    
    						/Dave
    

    More experience that water based does not hold up as well. I've
    had it in my kitchen for about 3 years and it wears very fast
    and does not seem to resist stains as well. However, I wanted
    the lighter color it provides on oak and it is easier to sand
    and do a spot touch-up
    
    Saul
    

I don't find anything in topic 1111 that points to "site preparation"
beyond the matters of surveying, and a 'dir/tit=site' didn't turn up anything
relevant to my question so....

What process do people follow to do site prep for an undeveloped site.
I own a half-acre lot adjacent to my own house lot.
This is in a finished neighborhood.  This lot was set aside but never
developed when the rest of the neighborhood was built, about 28 years ago.
The lot is currently listed as "not buildable" on the town rolls
because of uneven terrain and inconclusive perc testing.
This has had tax advantages for me since I have owned it, but I recognize
that it could complicate my development of the land.
The land is overgrown, even wooded (if you can imagine a half acre
"wooded" lot).

Where do I start to consider how to develop this land?
It will need to be surveyed, cleared, regraded, and permitted (not 
necessarily in that order) before I can even THINK about development.

Who does one call to get an initial estimate for this type of thing?
Since I'm doing very early prep work, I can't even offer a deal to a 
general contractor ("build me a house here - you take care of the details").

Anybody got a guess as to what it costs to clear a half acre
and haul the trees and bush away?

- tom]

    I would start off by checking the local zoning by-laws to make sure
    you have a conforming lot?  Are you sure the "not buildable" on the
    plan is there because of perk issues?  That designation often appears
    on lots that do not meet the zoning criteria.
    
    Assuming you pass that hurdle, the next thing is to make sure the
    lot can accept a septic system.  I don't know where you are, but in
    Mass that involves both a deep hole test and a perk test.  The deep
    hole test has to be done within a certain time window in the spring.
    So you only have a limited amount of time to pursue this unless you
    want to wait till next year.
    
    If you get past both these steps you can be fairly well assured that
    the site can be developed.

>    If you get past both these steps you can be fairly well assured that
>    the site can be developed.

I know the permitting process for development.
What I don't know is the mechanics of who I need to hire to prep the lot,
and what permitting is needed to prep the lot.
For example, the terrain is quite uneven, and the whole lot will have 
to be graded.  To do this, do I need an "earth removal" permit, since
changes to my lot will affect drainage on abutters lots?

And, of course, I need to know everything in advance to decide whether
any of the steps are worth taking.  Grade first to prep the site to take 
a perc test,  or do a perc test and then grade the lot if it passes
and perc it again to demonstrate that the new land contours still
meet water table and bedrock/ledge clearances?

Point question:  what discipline (suggest a yellow pages heading)
do I need to call to discuss the services I need?

- tom]

    Contact your local Board of Health with regard to the what/where/when
    of perc tests.  Check with the Building Inspector as to whether any
    permits are needed are pushing dirt around on your own property.  I
    would guess not, but certainly this can vary from town to town and
    state to state.  In my town you only need an earth removal permit
    if you are trucking stuff off site (and maybe not even then, if its
    done as part of necessary regrading for a project).  Finally, if
    there's any chance of wetland issues, check with the Conservation
    Commission.
    
    If you're looking for someone to worry about all this for you, I'd
    suggest checking the yeloow pages under "surveyers"
    

    	The first thing I would do is talk with the local town officials
    (building inspector I believe) to see if the land is listed as being
    watershed land.  The Cohen bill (Title V) takes effect next month, and
    it has many restrictions on what changes can be made to existing
    undeveloped land if it is located within 400' of any protected watershed
    land.  Every town has 'the list' for their town, and I've been told
    that this will affect something like 40% of landowners in the state 
    who are planning on building/developing land from now on.  (Memory is 
    fuzzy on that %, no flames pls.)
    	We ran into this only when applying for a building permit for our
    house after over a year's worth of planning, it never came up during
    the title search while buying the land or during the perc tests, etc.
    And our 'stream' is not even existant in the summer, it is only a
    trickle during the spring thaw.  In our case it was not a problem since
    that area is over 1500' away from where the house site is....
    
    /Tom