Conference 7.286::home_work

    	1. Why are'nt gutters as common as they were 10+ years ago.

	$$$

    	2. What are the pros and cons of putting them on now.

	Pro - the obvious.  No drips.  If you don't have gutters, you almost 
	have to have a line of gravel or something under the drip line.  It's
	tough to grow grass there, and the dirt will get splashed all over the
	house.  Also, gutters can help keep water out of the basement if you 
	aim the downspouts right.

	Con - $$$ for installation.  You have to clean them periodically too.
	The gravel under the drip line can look very nice, plus once it's there 
	you never have to clean it out like you have to clean gutters (or if you
	do you're on the ground).  And they don't look right on some houses, 
	like mine.  Although they would probably look good on a gambrel.

    	3. What brands (if any) are recommended.
    
	The nicest looking are the solid cedar ones, although these are 
	incredibly expensive and require constant maintenance.  Probably the 
	best are the ones that are put on by contractors who have a roll of
	aluminum and a forming machine on their truck, so that the whole gutter
	is one piece.  The RAINGO gutters would be fairly inexpensive and easy
	to put up yourself.

Paul

    What about ice build up?

    Ice will build up if your roof isn't insulated well; if your roof
    has good insulation so the snow doesn't melt unless it is warm
    enough outside to melt the snow, I don't think ice should be a
    problem.  However, I've never had gutters so this is pretty much
    a guess.
    Personally, unless there were a compelling reason to have gutters
    (water in the cellar, for example) I'd skip them as unnecessary.
    
    Steve

    
    Another reason for not putting gutters on has to do with the advent
    of new home warrantees. Here in the Northeast, gutters are prone
    to ice damming. Builders simply don't want to be vulnerable to
    warrantee callbacks when the gutters you had them install dam up
    and cause roof leakage.
    

    Re: .0
    
    The most practical are the continuous aluminum.  We had a guy come
    out last year for this.  I said I'd install.  He pulled his truck
    up, made the measurements, and bingo a pile of gutters in less than
    1/2 hour.  Look in the yellow pages under "gutters".
    
    					Steve  
    
    p.s. - don't get vinyl, they'll crack if there is ice buildup.

    RE .5
    Aluminum seems a to be popular choice, and I'd probably install
    them myself. Mind me asking how much you paid for the gutters?
    My dimensions would be 48 feet of gutter (across) with probably
    about 100 - 120 feet of downspouts. That's front and back, if I
    did the front alone (south side), 24 feet of gutter with about 
    30 - 40 feet of downspouts.
    Also, what was the installation like?
    
    Thanks for the info,
    	John
    

    If I remember correctly I paid about $1.00 to $1.15 a foot for gutters
    and hangers at Mullen Lumber in Sudbury.  They sell the continuous
    stuff formed to the length you want while you wait.  You might find
    a lumber yard around you that sells continuous guttering.  Remember
    to bring a ladder on the roof of your car to carry these things.
    They are very flimsy and will turn into a pretzel if not supported
    when you put them on a car roof.
    
    Marty
    

    I am going to put about a twenty-foot section of gutter in to contol
    some runoff (particularly onto my deck) and to get water away from
    this portion of my foundation.
    
    I have a couple of question since I've never done this before:
    
    1.  Can I get away with one downspout and if so what should the
        pitch of the gutter be?  If not how many do I need?
    
    2.  Vinyl and aluminum, which is better, or is it preference?
    
    3.  If I do need more than one spout, I am going to have to empty
        one spout into the ground into PVC drain pipe, out into the
        yard into a drywell?  If so, how deep should the PVC be buried
        and sloped?  Should I use solid or preforated, since the downspout
        will be near the foundation, I would think solid.  Am I correct?
    
    Thanks in advance.  BTW, nice idea for a conference; I was pointed
    here from another conference, and think this is a great forum.
    
    /Dave Gallagher

    It's my understanding that you need just a VERY little slope for
    gutters; basically, just enough to insure that it's not going
    uphill.  One old roofer I talked to said "half the bubble in a
    two-foot level".  
    
    Vinyl or aluminum; the continuous-formed aluminum seems to be the
    best, but of course you have to hire somebody to do that.  As far
    as vinyl or aluminum in sections, I'd guess it's a tossup.
    
    No suggestions on the drainage, except I'd think you could get away
    with one downspout; 20' of gutter isn't that much.
    
    Steve
    

    There is a note a few pages back on gutters. That should give you
    some more info.
    

    I used 4" solid drain pipe, buried 12" down.  The pipe is solid
    for 16', then an 8' section of perforated was installed.  Around
    the perforated pipe, I put some crushed stone to prevent the pipe-
    perforations from getting clogged.  The pipe runs about $7.00 per
    8' section.  The fittings cost from $2.00 - $10.00/each.
    

    Some company (sorry I don't remember the name) makes gutters for
    DIYers. My local hareware store just started stocking them. They
    have 10' gutter sections, 90� bends, hangers, down spout connections
    and down spouts. They also have a small brochure that gives
    installation instructions, estimating help etc. The number of down
    spouts can be determined by the roof area and is listed in the
    brochure. Sorry I don't have names and figures.
    
    _Bill

    Re: .5  The name of a company that makes vinyl gutters is Raingo
    and they are available at most home hardware stores.  This month's
    issue of Popular Science has a whole article on the installation
    of vinyl gutters and downspouts.
    
    -al

    I like vinyl gutters made by Mitten. They are shaped like wood or
    aluminum gutters. Raingo are U shaped and I think rather ugly. I
    got mine at Village Lumber in Westboro (True Value outlet). Cost
    for 30 ft. and one downspout was about $55. /Steve

    This month's Practical Homeowner has an ad for RAINGO gutters at
    TRUSTWORTHY stores for $3.99 for a 10 ft. section. The sale runs
    'till the end of October according to the ad.
    
    	Steve
    

    I need to install two lengths of gutter to my home.
    One section is about 15ft. the other 24ft. Since
    having someone come and install these including all
    downspouts and hardware is going to cost about $6.00
    a foot, I think I would prefer to do it myself. My
    question is.... Does anyone know who will come and
    just extrude the gutter for me,(I would rather have
    one seemless lenght) and about how much they might
    charge for this? I live in the Framingham area.
    
    thanks,
    dave
    

    I do not know anyone in Framingham, but I am sure most siding
    contractors do this.  B & T siding from Marlboro made seamless
    gutters for me.  I got lengths from 10' to 32'.  As I recall,
    the cost was 85 cents per foot (2 years ago).
    
    BTW, it is a neat process to watch the flat metal get formed into
    a gutter !
    
    Mark
    

    Ask if they will make .032 gutter for you. Most of these portable
    machines only make the thinner .027 gutter. The heavier stuff will
    hold up to a ladder against it much better and was worth the extra
    cost.
    
    Nick

    If you want to transport them yourself, you can have them made
    to length at Mullen Lumber in Sudbury.  I don't know which gauge
    they sell but suspect it is .027.  Also, I don't know if they
    will deliver; they do deliver lumber at no charge.  I have
    bought gutters there and tie them to an extension ladder
    on my car roof for transporting.
                                
    
    Marty
    

    Check out "All-In_One" in Worcester 617-835-6229.   I had them put
    some gutters on an addition on my house and they were reasonable;
    they'll do a free estimate/quote, so you don't have anything to
    lose.
    	Jim
    

    
    Aside from the potential "growth" of killer icicles in winter,
    and torrents of water gushing off the roof in warmer weather,
    is there a potential for serious problems with a cedar clap-
    board house built <without> rain gutters?
    
    The (new) house we're buying in Leominster doesn't have gutters.
    Nor do any of the other homes in that neighborhood.  I agree that 
    it detracts from the looks of the house, but are we headed towards
    problems?
    
    I don't know if this matters, but the house has a Gambrel roof
    with 2 dormers in the front.
    
    Thanks for any info...
    
    Donna
    
    

     Wait a minute..... I think we have some misconceptions to clear
    up first.
    
     The lack of gutters does not cause icicles to form in the winter.
    Poor or improper insulation is usually the cause of those. The warmth
    from the house rises into the roof where it melts the snow on the
    roof. The water runs down the roof until it gets to the unheated
    overhang where it freezes, either as an ice-dam or if you're lucky
    just an icicle.
    
     Torrents of water don't usually run off of a roof except in VERY
    heavy rain or if you have a valley in the roof which concentrates
    the water.
    
     As far as a house looking bad without gutters, that is a matter
    of taste, but I don't like the appearance of gutters at all.
    
     Gutters are a pain in the neck. They need to be cleaned twice a
    year (unless you live at least 2 mi. from the nearest tree), and
    if they aren't kept clean they can back-up and cause a lot of trouble.
    In the winter, they catch snow-melt from your roof and freeze full
    of ice, which can back up and cause even more problems.(In freezing
    weather gutters don't do anything except hold ice against you house)
    Unless you use gutter-heating cables ect. which is more effort and
    expense.
    
     Gutters are totally unneeded if:
    	You have at least a 10" overhang
    	The ground around the house slopes such that water naturally
    		flows away from the house,( only a sight slope is needed)
    	Not a special condition, like, over a doorway, above a deck
    		or some other place where even a small amount of runoff
    		would be unacceptable. In such a case you install the
    		minimum gutter for the problem and direct the water
    		to a place where it will do no harm.
    
    Gutters are not meant to protect the siding of a house. Normal types
    of siding are naturally waterproof because of their material and/or
    the way they are applied. Gutters are meant to keep the water away
    from places (on the ground) where it could do damage (seep into
    a basement) or cause some other type of problem.
    
    					Kenny                 
    	

    Geesh!  I'm Writer with DEC, and I can't even express myself!  
    I re-read my base note after you replied and I can't believe
    how I worded something... what I meant to say is:
    
    '... none of the other homes in the same neighborhood have
    gutters on their houses.  I think putting gutters on a house
    detracts from the looks...so based on esthetics, I'm glad
    they don't have them.'  I didn't mean to imply that a house
    <without> gutters looked bad...
    
    Well, with that out of the way -- thanks for the info.  I hadn't
    even thought about the possibility of gutters getting clogged
    with ice, having to clean out the gutters 2X/year, etc.
    
    I have, however, noticed that houses/buildings without gutters
    do seem to have more icicles hanging from them than houses
    <with> gutters.  My concern, however silly it may seem, was the
    unlikely possibility of stepping through the front door some
    morning and getting nailed in the top of the head by an icicle...
    
    Thanks again for all your info.
    
    Donna
    
    

    Many houses without gutters have a small, L shaped piece of metal
    tacked onto the roof just over the doorway.  This shunts the water
    that would normally fall onto the porch in front of the doorway
    to the side of the door.  Something like:
    
                                                
                                   /\
                                  /  \
                                 /    \
                       =========================
    
                                +------+
                                |      |
                                | door |
                                |      |
                                             
    
    Some use the inverted V design above, some have just a single piece
    slanting the width of the door.
    
    Gutters are designed to direct water away from your foundation so
    that you don't get water in the basement.  If you have a sufficient
    overhang and your ground slopes away from the house and you have
    good drainage, you don't need them.  If not, you may.  Remember,
    if your house is 20 feet wide and you don't have gutters,  the foot
    of ground directly under the drip line of the house will get ten
    inches of rain in a 1 inch rain storm.  
    
                                                August G. Reinig

    I've had houses with and without gutters.  Personally I like the
    gutters.  A couple of reasons:
    
    	1) Water running off of the roof will cause splashing of dirt
    	and crud onto the side of your house, unless there's gravel
    	or concrete.
    
    	2) If you have a garden that just happens to be under the dripping
    	area, your plants will take a beating.
    
    They are a pain if you live near or under a tree.
    
    -al

    We bought a split-entry 5 years ago, and it didn't have gutters.
    After about 6 months, I had them installed, because:
    
    1. Water would sit near the foundation, and if it was a big rain
       storm, I'd get a bit of seepage near the septic outlet pipe.
    
    2. We have a deck on the back of the house, and a garage and front
       door on the front - all of the rain splashing was going on
       the doors and frames - and years of this might cause wood 
       problems (especially on the garage door).
    
    3. On houses with cedar shingles, persistent splashing of rain
       water COULD lead to excess mildew build-up on those shingles.
       Cedar shingles are made to repel water - but not if they're
       constantly being soaked...
    
    4. I like to go out of my house without running under a waterfall.
       The previously mentioned rain deflectors over a door work, but
       with a full-sized deck and a garage door, the gutters made more
       sense.
    
    
    A suggestion - if you do decide to put gutters up - have someone
    come out and do a seamless installation.  The come with a truck,
    and crank out a single piece of aluminum guttering the length
    of your house!  The aluminum gutters you get from Grossmans, etc,
    need to be put together, and the seams need attention over the
    years to prevent leaking.  There are also RAINGO plastic gutters,
    which are cheap, easy to put up, and look good.  But they're
    still put together with seams in between, and you may have some
    maintenance over the years.  With the one-piece seamless ones,
    they put them up, guarantee a good slope over the length of
    the roof - and hold up very well (stronger than the seamed ones).
    
    Andy

    I, too, had gutters installed after 6 months in our house.  I
    personally don't like the L-brackets over the doorway.  We put up
    gutters for much the same reason as .-1 did.  
    
    Without gutters, our 6-year old house had plenty of water damage:
    
       o The concrete steps had an ugly line across it where the water
         dripped off the roof.  
    
       o The water splashed back against the door and seeped behind
         the step and destroyed the header board.  (I've replaced the
         steps and the header board since then).
    
       o The garage door bottom panel had to be replaced because of
         mildew problems.
    
    I installed gutter screening (plastic variety) and have had NO problem
    with leaves since then.  

    NOTE:  I contracted "Quality Insulation" to do the gutters, since
    they had the best price.  THEY DID A SLOPPY JOB, AND I DIDN'T LIKE
    THEIR ESTIMATES.  IF YOU DO GUTTERS, I'D STAY AWAY FROM THEM!!
    (My dog didn't ilke the scraps of metal they left around the yard,
    and the sharp edges they left on the downspouts, etc...)

    
    
    The only "Quality Insulation" I know of is located in
    Norwich, CT.  Where are you?
    
    

    My house also had problems with lack of gutters letting water splash
    up into the foundation, causing dry rot in the sill beams behind
    the front door.
    
    I put up the plastic gutters in the front (simple gambrel roof-line)
    in about 2 hours.  One advantage of the plastic snap-in gutters
    is that if you have problems with ice dams in the winter, you can
    quickly take the gutters off for winter and pop them back up in
    the spring.
    
    /Dave

    When I had my gutters put up, I went through Sears (they usually
    have at least 20% off sales all of the time).  In the Nashua Area,
    their contract people are (or at least were 3 years ago) American
    Gutter Company out of Derry NH - they did a good job then - and
    if you go thru sears, not only will you have the installers back
    them, but sears will pitch in as well (let's not get into any 
    Sears battles, now...)
    
    Andy
    

    RE: 757.7
    
    "Quality Insulation" is in Nashua, NH.  Silly me, I was under the
    impression that everybody who read notes was in the Southern NH
    area!  

    Last weekend I spent some time shoveling snow off my roof.  I only
    got about 1/4 done because there is so much up there (probably about
    2 feet)!  Since then a couple of people have told me I'm probably
    better off leaving the snow up there than shoveling it off.

    I don't have any leaks or anything... I am just concerned about
    all that weight on the roof, especially in the Spring when it all
    starts melting.  Any comments on this?

            Rico

    Reply #.1 about gutters which "freeze full of ice" hit home last night.
    My son went over to the church last night to chisel away a barricade
    of frozen slush plowed in front of the steps.  When I came by to
    pick him up, he had cleared the stuff on the ground and was up on
    a chair by the entrance hacking away at an ice dam over the door.
    I saw that the ice-filled gutter was pulling loose, and I yanked
    him away from his good deed, but I still got bashed and bloodied
    on the back of my head as the gutter plunged free to earth.  Some
    earnest soul had installed the gutter with nails, and when the gutter
    filled with ice only the ice was strong enough to glue it to the
    building.  I'm taking asprin today and double-testing any code I
    write, but the event could have been really impressive this Sunday.
    
    I won't even consider any theological implications of good deeds
    being rewarded, etc.
    
    Dave
    
    
    
    

    see 736.*
    

    I'm considering adding gutters to my house in Lowell. Would anyone
    care to quote some prices for continuous guttering?
    		Thanks
    		Charlie
    

    Call Herb Rousseau & Sons.  They did an excellent job on my gutters,
    vinyl siding, etc.

	I think I paid $2.25 per foot last year.  The original price 
	I was quoted was $2.10 but when I got the bill .....

	Anyway, downspouts or gutters ... both the same price.

	-- Jim

    Installed gutters/downspouts in this neck of the woods goes for
    $1.50/foot. Seamless gutters, 10 ft. downspout sections.  Each
    corner mitre junction is $5.  Each downspout elbow is $1.50.
    Each funnel juntion is $5.
                     
    When you compare the cost of installed seamless vs. DIY, common
    sense should make for an easy decision.
    
    Randy
    

	I have read through the various notes concerning gutters and they
	don't contain exactly what I'm looking for, so here goes.

	I have to replace the gutters on the house this year.  The house
	is a 38 foot ranch, straight along the back, an 18 inch jog in the
	front.  The back has one downspout in the middle which empties into
	a drywell.  The front has two downspouts, one on each end which
	just dump out near the foundation.  The front is done in 2 sections.
	One estimate to replace the existing system with .032 seamless
	gutters was $380.  The decision was easy.  I'm going to put up
	either vinyl or aluminum sections since the gutters are only about
	10' from the ground.

	I 'd like to know other peoples' experience with the aluminum or
	vinyl gutters.  What did you use at the connections so the seams
	don't leak.  Any installation tips?  Are the vinyl gutters tough
	enough to withstand ladders and ice?  I'm planning on installing
	some heating cable on the roof to prevent ice dams.  Will this
	affect what I should chose?

	I'd also like to direct those 2 downspouts into some sort of
	drain setup.  I was going to try to run a section of perforated
	PVC into some crushed stone.  Would this be adequate?  I don't
	think I want to put 2 drywells in the front lawn.

	Phil

      I have used the vinyl RAINGO gutters on 3 houses. I have been
    very happy with the results. The vinyl gutters are very easy to
    work with and YES they do withstand ladders and ice. I have used a
    32' wooden ladder against a high section even in sub-freezing temps.
    and have had no problems with breakage. 
      Seams have a special joint with rubber gaskets and allowances
    for changes in length due to temp. variations. The pieces just snap
    together (or apart). I have been very pleased with the Raingo gutters.
    Summerville lumber has them.
    
    					Kenny                       

    If I read your base note correctly, you need about 80' of gutter
    and about 30' of downspout.  I just had .032 gauge alcoa gutters
    installed on my house:  cost for gutters or downspout was $1.25
    per foot, installed.  Each elbow or mitre box was $1.25 extra.
    
    This is the going rate here in Cleveland, OH.  I would recommend
    some further shopping for a job price closer to reality.

    Re: .1
    
    For some strange reason I thought that the seams of vinyl gutters
    would be glued, similar to PVC pipe.  I guess not.  Sounds like
    their system is pretty good.  Are there any other types of vinyl
    gutters around this area.  I've seen the Raingo gutters and
    aesthetically they are less appealing.  Maybe I'm just used to
    aluminum.  If they function well though, I'll go with them.

    Re: .2
    
    And the price didn't even include taking down the old gutters!!
    It sounded high to me.  I was going to go the seamless route but
    if the sectional gutters work well, I think I'll save some money
    and D-I-M.
    
    Can one person put up the vinyl gutters or should you have another
    person to help?  Anybody have any suggestions on what to do with
    the water after the gutter system.
    
    Phil

    I put up vinyl gutters in the front of my house.  Snap-On was the
    brand name, if I remember correctly.  Total cost for about 40
    feet of gutter with downspouts at either side was $85.  It took
    me only an hour and a half to hang them (and I was using more
    than the normal number of hangers, being paranoid).
    
    If you are careful about measuring and placing the combination
    hanger-connectors that seal the ends of gutter sections together
    it is real easy for one person to do the job.  You just have to
    move the ladder around a bit.  I put up the hangers and connectors,
    then dropped the gutter sections in and snapped them into place.
    If you haven't tried putting up sectional aluminum or galvanized
    gutters before, take my word for it - vinyl is MUCH easier!
    
    Under heavy ice pressure this winter they started to deform, but
    I went up and popped the ice out (almost like an ice cube tray)
    and they went back to normal shape.  Many of my neighbors gutters
    permanently deformed or ripped right off the houses under the same
    load.

    /Dave

    Another vote for Raingo vinyl gutters. I put up about 37' of the
    brown colored gutters in about two hours. The installation is fairly
    easy. If you have a cordless drill/screwdriver it makes it alot
    easier. I know the gutters come in both white and brown but I don't
    know if they are available in any other colors. I live in New England
    and these gutters were up all this winter with no ice problems.
    One other reason why I like Raingo is that it appeared to be available
    at almost every lumber yard and hardware store around my area so
    parts (if they did break) were easily available.
    

	I put Raingo gutters up two years ago.  They have stood up to
	a couple years of Vermont winter.  You should have seen the size
	of the ice damn they were holding back.  They didn't even flinch!
	You can practically stand on them.  

	No problem putting them up.  Like noted earlier, just move the
	ladder around a lot.

	I would stay away from the "leaf seperator" though.  It ends up
	getting debri stuck in it then the water ends up running down the
	outside of the downspout.

	-gary

    One more vote for Raingo. I put them on the back of my house this
    past summer and have been very happy. They don't seem to be affected
    by ice. It got pretty bad this winter and I thought that they would
    break from the weight. After the ice melted they were just like
    new.
    
    The leaf guard works great on what it was designed for.
    
    Too bad they don't make a pine needle guard!
    
    Richard.

    How much of an angle, did you people that used the Raingo, have.
    I have a 44' ranch that I am going to use Raingo on. Can you people
    give any hints on what parts did not work? What type of drainage
    you are using for the downspouts.
    
    Thanks Dave
    

re -.1:

	You don't need very much of an angle.  Water will flow downhill.
	A couple of degrees should be adequate.

	Mine drain right into my foundation drain and then out into the
	woods ~50 ft. away from the house.  The excavator who did my
	cellar hole left pipes sticking up so that I could access the
	drain tile around the perimeter of the house.  Pretty handy.
	Kind of hard to do with an existing house tho...

	-gary

    So, to sum up:
    
    1. Vinyl gets a very strong YES vote, especially Raingo.  Skip the
       leaf seperators, though.
    2. They can be put up by one person in a relatively short time.
    3. They can withstand New England winters and ice dams.
    
    
    Now for the drainage:
    
    My foundation does not have any existing perimeter drainage system.
    Is a drywell the only solution?  I don't like funneling the rain
    down the driveway.
    
    Phil

    According to an old guy I talked to a few years ago, you need very
    little if any slope for a gutter.  If you put a level on it and
    it slopes enough so the level says it's not quite level, that's
    enough.  1/4 to 1/2 the bubble off center, maybe.

re: Raingo gutters

It;s a little late after the other kudos, but another advantage I see to 
the Raingo stuff is you can easily take them down in the winter. I was 
faced with large ice dams and was able the thwart the encroachment by 
removing the gutter sections... Next year I'll do that just before the 
first snow of the season.

re: pitch

I called the Raingo 'hotline' and they said to slope the sections at 
1/2" to 3/4" per 10' section. I have 40' sloped at 3/4" per 20' section 
with two downspouts at either end of the house...no leaf separators or 
high-flow connectors

    Randy:
        Where is "this neck of the woods"? I'm about to buy guttering
    and the prices I've seen so far are much higher than what you 
    quoted. If you're reasonably local to Lowell, Ma., can you 
    recommend someone?
    		Thanks
    		Charlie

    I am about to purchase a Raingo gutter system. I have one question,
    how many gutter brackets did you people use per 10 foot section
    of gutter? The flyer calls for one every 2'6". I live in Mason,
    N.H. Where we got a lot of snow. The store was telling me to put
    one gutter bracket per 2'  What did you people do?
    
    Dave
    

    I got paranoid 'cause the snow two years ago ripped my aluminum gutters
    right off the house, so I spaced the brackets every 18".  The gutters
    held through the snow this year - so it's a working solution, if
    a bit overdone.
    
    /Dave

      I have a house near Franconia Notch on which I installed Raingo
    gutters. I spaced the hangers at 2'. Last (this) winter we had
    tremendous ice buildup and icicles in them and no problems with
    the gutters. So I would say 2' is sufficient.
    
    					Kenny

I also put Raingo up with the recommended spacing interval. With the Ice 
dams this past winter I decided that taking them down for the snow 
season is preferable to water leaks...none broke, tho...

    re .5, .6
    
    This neck of the woods is Cleveland, Ohio -- on the North Coast
    of the U.S. -- with the Lake that is Erie and the Tower that is
    Terminal!!!
    
    (Can you tell that I am a hometown boy and proud of it?)
    
    Randy
    

    
    	I am going to put gutters on my home and am wondering if there
    	are any pros and cons to the differnt types available. I am
    	not going to use cedar, mainly because of the cost and weight.
    	Recently I have seen alot of adds for the Vinyl type... wouldn't
    	these suffer from some of the same problems as all vinyl window
    	casings? Any tips on the installation would also be appreciated.
    
    /Kevin

    This is already being/has been discussed in several previous notes.
    Please check note 1111.?? or do a DIR/TITLE="GUTTER".
    
    Phil

See notes 155, 223, 579, 715, 757, and 969.

Paul

    re: .0
    
    What problems with vinyl window casings?

    
    	If window casings are made of pure vinyl they have a tendency
    	to "melt" in the sun. I have seen them bowed and warpped to
    	the extent that the window is no longer useful.
    
    /Kevin

    
    
    I painted the wood gutter a few years ago and the paint is peeling
    off now. It looks like I have to paint it again this summer. When
    I did it last time, I sended the gutter to bare wood but did not
    put a coat of primer before I put the latex on it. Is this the
    reason why the paint peel-off so quickly ( 4 years ) ? Or does
    it really require a coat of primer ? I want to do it right this
    time. By the way, I also painted the whole exterior at the same
    time, and it still shows beautiful. Why ? I used the same brand
    of paint for both the gutter and the exterior siding and did not
    put primer on the siding neither. Don't understand it.
    
    Any suggestion ?

    Just a WAG, but...
    
    From my understanding, one of the prime reasons for peeling paint
    is that moisture gets behind it and pushes it off of the wood. 
    On siding, for instance, if you don't have a vapor barrier in your
    wall, the humidity from inside can cause the paint outside to go
    south.
    
    Now, carrying that thought a bit further, it may be possible that it's
    the moisture migrating through the gutter, itself, that's causing your
    problems. 

    One thought would be to paint the inside also, but from what I hear,
    that would lead to rotten wood pretty quick. 
    
    This whole idea is speculation and, of course, is most likely 180
    degrees out of phase, but I just felt like entering a note.
    
    Comments?
    
    -joet 

>    Comments?

Yup, I've got one....I think you called this one exactly right, Joe.
If the inside of the gutter was not painted it means that it was probably
continuously wet throughout.  That moisture has got to go somewhere and what
doesn't escape through evaporation has got to push that paint off the other 
side.

>    One thought would be to paint the inside also, but from what I hear,
>    that would lead to rotten wood pretty quick. 

It's not clear to me why painted the inside as well would promote rot.  If the
paint prevents water penetration, wouldn't that resist rot?

							--Mike 
   


    

    Wet, dry, expansion, contraction, etc...  That'll do it!
    
    C

    Thanks for the quick response. I think you've just pin-pointed the
    source for the problem. I have skipped oiling ( linseed oil ) the
    inside of the gutter last year. And we've gotten lots of rain this
    spring. The rain probably went thru the gutter and cause the paint
    to peel-off. Does this sound reasonable ? How often should the gutter
    be oiled.
    
    Would it be a good idea to replace the wood gutter with vinyl ?
    Although its a shame to throw away the good wood gutter, but climbing
    30 feet to paint/oil the gutter every year is no fun. Can this be
    done ( DIY ) by one person ?
    

    re: .2
    
>    It's not clear to me why painted the inside as well would promote rot.
>    If the paint prevents water penetration, wouldn't that resist rot? 
 
    By effectively sealing all sides of the wood, the inherent moisture has
    nowhere to go so decay can get a foothold.  Remember that wood's water
    content is constantly changing due to ambient humidity.  If you prevent
    that, you're asking it to do more than cellulose was designed for. 
    
    re: .4  and redoing your gutters
    
    The answer is the result of a formula that takes into account pain,
    expense, aesthetics, morality, and what your personal idea of what
    wastefulness is.  Only you can supply the values for the variables.
    
    A lot of people have had good luck with the new vinyl gutters and
    the installation is DIYable by one person.
    
    -joet

      Yes, you definitely should oil your gutters every year. Use linseed
    oil and really flood it on (don't be stingy). This shouldn't be
    too much extra work because you should be cleaning them at least
    once a year unless the nearest tree is at least a mile away.
    
      Wood gutters are the best looking and if they are in good shape
    why replace them? Especially when you consider that vinyl gutters
    aren't that cheap and you'll still have to clean those.
    
    					Kenny

    there is one problem with those (vinyl gutter deals) that are always
    popping up in grossmans/webbers flyers.....  you know "sale 10'
    section $2.00"........  Is that you need all of the hangers,
    connectors, fittings, elbows, downspouts, etc... etc...  these are
    the things that cost the bucks.... 1 connection (downspout opening)
    goes for something like twice the price of the 10 foot gutter section.
    Theres alot of hidden costs, so be prepared...
    
    Fra

    RE: .9
    
    Yes, you're right.  For about 80' of gutter, the cost for the gutter
    and downspouts were around $75 and all the other do hickies came
    to around $100.  Believe it or not, Sommerville Lumber was the cheapest
    place around for the Raingo stuff!  Half the price of Grossman's.
    They must have marked them wrong...
    
    However, even with all the connectors its still cheaper is certain
    cases.  You'd still need a lot of these extras no matter what type
    of gutters you used, though...
    
    Phil

I looked  in  1111.  but  no  luck with this problem. The rain gutters on my
house  are  a  few years old (they were replaced shortly before I bought the
place).  They are white aluminum, with one down spout on each corner of the
house.  There  does  not  seem  to  be  any pitch to them at all. 

Here's the  problem. The gutters are installed such that there is 1/2" space
between  the  metal  drip  edge  coming  off of the roof, and the top of the
gutter.  Also, the gutter does not always sit completely flush to the house,
but the drip edge is fairly flush. The drip edge sticks down about 1".

The result  is  that  with light rain I get alot of water dribbling off of
the  roof,  onto  the  drip  edge, and between the gutter and the house. This
water  ends up on the siding, in the windows, etc. Yuk. Heavy rain runs off
of the roof with enough momentum to hit the gutter and be carried away.

Here's the question. How do I fix this?

. Somehow get flashing up under the drip edge and stick it down into the
  gutter.

. Remove the gutters and reattach them with the tops forced underneath
  the drip edge (the short drip edge length and positioning of the gutter
  nails make this awkward).

. Replace the existing drip edge with one that sticks down further -
  far enough to make it into the existing gutters.

. Torch the place and move to Arizona where such things are not important 8v).

Any suggestions, comments or wise cracks appreciated. Jim...
    

    Is it possible to caulk the gap between the gutters and the house?
    If you use a good non-latex caulk, you should end up with a good
    seal.  I've done this on ours and it works fine.
               --tom

    My gutter man said that he does not recommend caulking the gutters
    to the wood during installation.  He says that if you don't get
    it exactly perfect, there will be a tendency for moisture to collect
    behind the gutter and it will rot the wood.
    
    Gutters have a tendencey to pull away from the wood due to ice in
    the winter.  Maybe all it needs is to me nailed back on more securely.
    Either that or a little bending of the drip edge may help.
    
    -al

    
    	Well I'm finally getting around to hanging gutters on my home,
    	and had a few general questions about the installation. The
    	shingles on the roof are about 12 years old, and from my experience
    	with them, tend to crack when disturbed much. Are there any
    	tricks to getting the gutter hangers in under the shingles
    	without cracking them? I really don't want to cause myself
    	more problems by breaking shingles to install gutters! Yes,
    	the gutters are necessary as I have water problems in the cellar.
    
    /Kevin

    I had the same problem cited in the base note.  It appears that
    the gutter material warped a bit in several places --  due either
    to faults in the aluminum or in the forming process.
    
    To close these gaps, I used the same type of 1/2" painted sheet
    metal screws used to join the gutter connections to fasten the rear
    of the gutter to the fascia -- paying attention to keep the placement
    of the screw above the low side gutter wall.  These small hex/phillips
    screws were easy to work with and are virtually invisible from the
    ground.
    
    Randy
    

I had the exact same problem.

The current drip edge is 10" wide, so there was no way I could replace it 
without doing serious damage to the shingles.  I got some 4" drip edge and put 
it under the shingles, but above the the other drip edge.  I put a bead of 
silicone sealant between the two drip edges to provide a seal and to adhere 
the two drip edges together.  I placed the second drip edge so that it was 
about a half inch farther out than the first drip edge.  It worked fine in
the rains the past weekend, and doesn't look as bad as it sounds.

I have a concern that any water that makes it under the shingles may eventually 
collect at the intersection between the two drip edges at the silicone, but if 
it does, it will be sitting on top of 6" of aluminum drip edge, which is 
sitting on top of roofing felt.

Good luck

Clay

    I used a 3" FLEXIBLE putty knife to pry off my old shingles.  Work
    the putty knife in at an angle in the middle first.  Then go to
    the outside and work in.  Be careful to push hard enough to cut
    through the sticky tabs but not hard enough to lose control and
    break/cut the shingle.  Usually once you get through one or two
    of the sticky tabs, the others will come apart fairly easy.  Patience
    is KEY here.  Don't go too quick.  It helps to also do this on a
    hot day when the adhesive is loose and the shingle a bit flexible.
    Then just reapply a SMALL amount of roofing cement to the shingle
    to re-secure it.
    
    Phil

    Sounds like the drip edge is mangled or not angled so that it drops
    the water into the gutter.  The objective is to have the drip edge
    over hang the gutter.  You could try placing narrow strapping between
    the drip edge and the facia to push it out over the gutter.
    
    I would also NOT caulk to solve the problem.  I had some old wood
    gutters where that solution was attempted.  After spending all day
    Sat. replacing the picture window below the gutter, I can attest to
    the fact that this is not the way to go.

    

     Many types of gutters have brackets that install on the face of
    the fascia, not under the shingles. If you were to use one of those
    then you wouldn't have a shingle problem.
    
    					Kenny

    re: .2
    
    Some houses don't have facia, too.  There are several ways to attach
    gutters (bracket to facia, hanger under shingles, spike and ferril
    (sp?)).  I was assuming .0 had the gutter hangers which slip up
    under the shingles and wanted to keep that type.
    
    Phil

    (more from the caulk story...)
    
    The aluminum ice-guard that extends under the roofing also completely
    covers the facia board on my house.  The gutters are attached to
    the facia through the aluminum.  I used the caulk to seal the gutter
    to the aluminum sheet.  There is no drip edge in this case
    (unfortunately).  I agree, caulking to wood might allow more moisture
    to build up behind the gutter (how would it get there?) but this
    should not be any worse than any other method of forming a water-tight
    seal between the facia and the gutter (i.e., screws, gaskets, etc.).
    
    Conclusion:  Get your drip edge to dump the water in the gutter,
    not down the facia!!  Anything else (like what I have) is just
    second-rate.
                     --tom
    

    This is an easy one to solve. RainGo makes a vinyl drip edge to
    solve this exact problem. They come in white and brown, are 10'
    lenghts and cost only a couple of bucks each. All you do is slip
    them under the edge of your shingles, between the existing drip
    edge and the first row of shingles. They are suppose to anchor
    themselves in place without any other attachment methods, but I
    put a couple of dabs of roofing cement on the top side of the vinyl
    drip edged for added attachment security(without this dab of r.c.
    they worked they're self out after  a couple of really bad thunder
    storms). What these vinyl extension drip edges do is extend your
    existing drip edge out, about 1". It's so easy, you can install
    them about as fast as you can run up and down the ladder.
    

    OK, I went out and bought all the Raingo equipment.  Put up a temporary
    20' section to protect the new bow window and they leaked where
    the sections came together.  Did I screw something up (not much
    to screw up but it's a possibility) or do I have to apply some silicone
    sealer where the sections meet?  I don't see how these seams would
    be water tight without some kind of sealant.  The instructions said
    nothing about sealant.
    

    re: .18
    
    There is a rubber gasket (actually 2, one at each end) in the
    connecting piece.  Sometimes they fall out or get folded over when
    you install them, or sometimes they fall off in the store.  Try
    snapping out the gutter section and checking if the gasket is there
    and positioned properly.
    
    By the way -- I painted mine before I put them up.  Didn't see any
    instructions NOT to, so I gave it a try.  Took two coats and looks
    fine for now.  I'll post a report here if it works long-term or
    not.
    
    Clay

    
    	re: .18 
    
    	Yes you should silicon all the seams. All my books at home do
    address this issue.
    
    	-Steve-
    

    RE: .18
    
    The rubber gaskets are there but they fall nowhere near the seam
    of the two sections of gutter.  Quite frankly, I can't see what
    purpose they serve except to cushion the gutter in the holder. 
    They certainly are not a seal.
    

I don't claim to be an expert on this; perhaps .20 is right and you do really 
need to silicone.  I know that when I first put mine up, they leaked quite 
badly.  I went up and fiddled with the gasket and it worked fine.

The gaskets do not seal the seam.  The water leaks through the seam into the 
hanger.  But once it is on the hanger, the gaskets prevent it from going 
anywhere.

Clay

    RE: .22
    
    That was the only thing I could figure too.  Except the gutters
    must be sloped.  Is it realistic to expect a good seal with a slope
    there?  I'll double check them tonight.  Make sure the gaskets are
    where they should be and dump some water in them.  If they're working
    for everybody else, I must be doing something wrong.
    
    But won't leaning a ladder against the gutters disturb these "seals"
    at the joint?
    

    
    	Wait'll ya see what the Ice does to em this winter. They'll
    	come down faster'n they went up. 
    
    				___GM___
                                                                

re: .23

Yes, they must be pitched at about 1/2 to 3/4" per 20'. There is enough 
clearance at the seal area that will allow this pitch without 
compromising the seal effectiveness.

The silicone's main purpose is to lubricate the seal to allow for small 
expansion and contraction movements and not dislodge the seal from its 
groove.

I put Raingo gutters up last year and have not had any leakage problems 
at all. I also don't lean the ladder against them...

    
    I haven't seen anyone mention the type of fastener to use. How
    long?  Could I use my old standby sheetrock screws?  Is rust a 
    problem?  

    Thanks,
    -dj-

    Raingo also sells rust resistant screws if you want to pay an arm
    and a leg for them.  I bought another brand of rust resistant screws
    and got MANY more for the same cost.

    Your right if we get a lot of ice this winter the hangers 
    just might not hold.  Your best bet if you can do it is to
    use the spike and ferril that reply .3 suggested  because they 
    do hold up better if you do not space them to far apart and then
    you do not have to touch the roof.
               
                        
    

     You may have the gutters installed too far into the connection
    fitting. There is a small bump and an alignment mark to install
    the gutter up to. If you have the gutter over this bump (it's meant
    to be a stop for the gutter) it may prevent the gutter from pressing
    tightly onto the rubber gasket.
      As for silicone; DON'T use silicone SEALER, use a silicone LUBRICANT.
    Raingo sells a special lube for this, but I just use silicone spray
    liberally and it has worked fine for me in several installations.
      Of necessity, I have put large wooden ladders against the Raingo
    gutters many times (albeit carefully) a couple of times even in cold
    weather, and I have not had a gutter break!
    
    					Kenny 

    RE: .27
    
    I used the silicone lubricate they sell for the gaskets.  I was thinking
    about putting the silicone sealer in the seam between the sections
    of gutter.  The "system" of gaskets seems very fragile in that any
    imperfections in the gasket, gutter or hanger would cause them to
    leak.  I still find it hard to believe that these things won't leak
    after leaning a ladder on them!  I'll keep fiddling with them until
    I get them working somehow.

    I haven't read all the replies in this note but I couldn't help
    putting in my $.02. As far as I am concerned, a gutters' main function
    is to channel off most of the water from a heavy rainfall so it
    doesn't get me wet going into/out of doors in a rain, and to prevent
    the mud from splashing on the bottom of the house or the excess
    water trying to find a way into the basement. Does it really matter
    if the gutter isn't 100% leak proof?  If a small amount of water leaks
    from the gutter, so much the better. That way it won't stay there
    as a place for insects to breed and for pine needles to rot in,
    or for melted snow to re-freeze in. 
                       
    Dave.
    

    
    			-< Defective Gutters!>-
    
     I also had bought Raingo gutters from Summerville Lumber about a
    month
     ago.  Mine also leaked.  I called Raingo and told them of my problem.
     I sent them a six inch section of the gutter, they called me back
     and informed me that the gutters were defective.  I had to return
    the gutters and get them at a different store where they were not
    defective.
     It sounds like you have the same problem as mine.
    
     Bill

	re: -what to attach them with...

	I put some up recently and used some galvanized sheet rock screws.
	These were 1 1/2".  Used my trusty Skill cordless screwdriver.
	Didn't even need to drill a pilot hole.  First time I came across
	the galvanized sheet rock screws.

	-gary

    
    I just got some used aluminum gutters from my mother in law,
    and was wondering what the best installation procedure is.
    The gutters were made by Alcoa, and have a bent steel rod fixed
    to them every 18" or so. The end of the rod is flattened with two
    holes in it. My question is... should I secure the rod on top of
    or beneath a layer of shingles, and will nails do or should I use
    small lags?
    
    /Kevin

As best you can without breaking or ripping the shingle attach the flattened 
end of the rod under the shingle.  What is normally used to secure the rods are
inch and a half roofing nails.

    
Jack

I think I'd go with something bigger than 1-1/2 roofing nails.  A gutter full of
ice gets mighty heavy.  I haven't had a whole lot of experience with gutters,
but when I took ours down to add on, I found every bracket nailed in with 2 8d
nails (galvanized, of course).  I would definately not top nail them through the
shingles if it can at all be avoided since water has an incredible habit of 
seeping in through the tiniest of holes.  If you do have to go that route, you
should probably cover each nail head with roofing cement/tar.

-mark

    Can someone tell me who sells RAINGO gutters in the area of Maynard,
    Acton, Littleton, Fitchburg, etc.
    
    I know Sommerville Lumber does but I'm looking for someplace closer.

 I thought I saw them at Maki's in Fitchburg the other day.  The display 
was tucked into a corner, and I wasn't looking for gutters, so I didn't 
pay much attention, but I *thought* it said Raingo on the card.

					>>>==>PStJTT

    Try Plywood Ranch.  I got mine in Acton.  I'm not sure it was
    specifically Raingo brand, but it was basically the same thing.
    
    clay

RE: .9	Plywood Ranch

	That branch still in business?   The Southboro and Worcester
Stores closed due to going-out-business recently.

				:(

    I bought Raingo gutters.  I have a stange fascia board and have
    to use the metal brackets that nail to the roof instead of screwing
    the gutters to the fascia.
    
    Do these have to go into rafters?  I don't even have rafters running
    up the roof.  I don't think there's much chance of hitting solid
    wood beneath the plywood.
      
    Any suggestions?  Will it hold if I just nail them into the plywood.
    Do the nails have to be beneath shingles?
    

      The gutter straps will hold fine when nailed just to the plywood.
    One thing to remember is try to keep all of the nails under the
    shingle. (lift the tab and place the stap under it, nail it, then
    put the tab back down) If you can't nail under the tabs for some
    reason, just put a very small amount of roof cement over the nail-head
    to seal it.
    
    					Kenny

    Re: .11
    
    > I bought Raingo gutters.  I have a stange fascia board and have
    > to use the metal brackets that nail to the roof instead of screwing
    > the gutters to the fascia.
    
    What is strange about you fascia board?  Is your fascia board at
    an angle (non-vertical)?
    
    I installed Raingo gutters on my house last year.  My fascia board
    is at a non 90 degree angle and the salesman who sold the gutters 
    recommended that I use the metal brackets and nail them to the roof.  
    I didn't want to nail them to my roof so I went to other hardware 
    stores to figure out a solution.  At Benson's hardware in Merrimack
    I found a product made by Raingo to solve this problem.  It is a
    plastic wedge that fits under your plastic bracket in order to make
    the plastic bracket vertical.  The wedge can be reversed to give
    you another angle.  My fascia board was at an angle that didn't
    quite match the two angles offered by this wedge, so I added a brass
    washer between the bracket & wedge.  This did the trick and I haven't
    had any problems with this arrangement.  They survived last January
    (50" of snow).  If anyone is interested, I'll dig up the part #.
    
    Ed
    				

    re: .13
    What is the approximate angle of these wedges?  Sounds like just
    the thing for my roof.

>                              -< Raingo's plastic wedge >-

    
    I tried these but they still didn't give me a good angle.  Also,
    the drip edge (overhang) is rather big.  I think I have to use the
    metal brackets.
    
    BTW, another gutter company, I don't know the name - they sell
    it at plywood ranch) makes an adjustable plastic wedge.  You can
    vary the angle that the wedge gives you by sliding 2 pieces against
    each other.
    From looking at them I think they would work with RAINGO.

    re: .14
    
    The plastic wedge is called Raingo Wedgies Bracket Spacer (part
    no. RB112).
    
    The bracket spacer accomodates both a 4/12 and a 6/12 pitched roof.
    
    Ed
    

    > The bracket spacer accomodates both a 4/12 and a 6/12 roof.
    
    That explains why I can't use them.  Mine is 10/12.
    
    (I assume that this assumes the fascia is at a right angle to the
    roof.)
    

    I need to add one of these diverters too.  Do you just place it
    on top of the existing shingles, nail through, and put roof gunk
    (sealing tar) over the nails????
    
    If you done this little task before, I'd appreciate 25 words or
    less on how to do it.
    
    BC
    

I've never done this before, but once you play with any kind of roofing you
discover how cleaver water is at getting under things.  In other words, if you
simply put this OVER your shingles, the water would get under it.

-mark

The way I've done it is to use a thick bead of roofing tar - like 1/4" thick, 
especially where you drop from one shingle to the next lowest one.  Then set 
the flashing in the tar (flashing pointing up the roof, so the water actually 
runs down the flashing), nail through it a few times, and then heavily tar the 
nail heads.  For good measure, I spread the tar that has squished out on the 
up-roof side over the edge of the flashing, and feather it out to help the 
water get up onto the flashing.  With the flashing thus tarred and feathered, 
I've had no problems.  :^)

The flashing that I've found best to use for this is window flashing.  It looks 
kind of like this:
				 _
				|
				|
			________|

The little lip on the upper edge is designed to hang over the top of a window 
frame, but it does a nice job of stiffening the part that sticks up against 
snow loads, etc.

Paul

    I've never installed a rain diverter, but I can tell you, from seeing
    my neighbor's recently installed diverter, definitely seal that
    sucker good!  This guy just nailed it on, and during a rain storm,
    the water just rolls under it like it wasn't there.
    
    John

How about an alternative to the rain diverters - just a piece of gutter
that runs over the door.  In my case, I used a section of Raingo gutter
over my front door.  Works great.  

What I didn't like about diverters:

    - cost, at some DIY supply stores and hardware stores (no, I didn't
      try SPAGS), these little diverter kits cost between $24-$40,
      depending on the length.  My Raingo gutter was $3.49 for a 10'
      section plus 4 hangers @ $1.89 = $11.00.

    - the color.  The rain diverters I saw were your basic sheet metal.
      I would have spray painted them flat-black first. 

    - the look.  Rain diverters are much more obvious to me than a
      piece of gutter.

    - the height.  I'm not too keen on being up high on a ladder
      in the first place, but I rather not have to work above the
      lip of the roof.  

Bill

    Has anyone tried, or know anything about the product that supposedly
    breaks up water from the roof into a `mist', eliminating the water
    line from the steps and garden below?  I wish I knew the name, but 
    it's always advertised (full page) in Practical Homeowner magazine.  
    The theory behind it looks reasonable, but I'm skeptical because
    it doesn't seem to be available `everywhere'.  (I've probably just
    answered my next question).  I'm wondering if it really works well 
    or just a waste of money.  Opinions?  Thanks.
    
    John

-mark

    I want to run rainwater from my gutters underground about 50' away
    from my house.  What kind of hose/pipe/tube should I use?  I want
    something flexible, probably around 2-3" in diameter.  So 4" schedule
    D is out, as is gutter downspout.
    What do you call the hose they use to bring water from a well into
    the house?  Where do you get it and what does it cost?
    Also, I need a way to connect whatever I use to the Raingo Downspout.

    

    
    	Use foundation drain pipe.  It's flexible, and comes in 50'
    lengths.  Probably the cheapest for what you want to do also.

      Raingo has a 2" square to 4" round adapter which you can use to
    connect to sewer type pvc. It's much cheaper than Sch 40 (~$5 for
    10'). The Raingo adapter should be available anywhere that sells
    Raingo.
    
    					Kenny

    
    What should come first:
    a) Siding
    b) Gutters
    c) Roof???????????????????????????/
    
    I'm in the process of having all of these things done.  I want two
    know three things.  What should done first, should the same company
    do all three or get seperate bids and last but not least how did
    you finance?
    
    				Thanks for your help,
    
    				Bart Lasky
    		

    Well gutters come last, the other two are a toss up. Get the best
    price with a quality contractor that you can which may mean one
    or more of them may be needed. Times are still busy, so expect to
    pay top dollar. But be sure to ask for and call references. You
    may even want to stop buy a house that the contractor recently worked
    on to insure that YOU like his/her work.....
    
    
    PS: how's Mary..............  Dave (Harley)
    

    If you strip the old shingles (and I ***STRONGLY*** recommend that
    you do, but that's a religious argument that has already been
    flogged to death in this file...), there might be a slight win
    to doing the roof before the siding.  Sometimes shingles coming
    off the roof "sail" in the air, hit the siding, and leave marks.
    
    Gutters come last, regardless.

    
    
    	I would do:
    
    			1- roof
    			2- siding
    			3- gutters
    
    		I would go with a roofing contractor.  Gutters could
    	be installed by a siding contractor at the same time as siding.
    	Look into the H.E.A.T. program for financing.
    
    	Suggestion...
    
    	Change/upgrade/add any windows before applying siding.  
    	Especially if you may add a patio door to a deck, change of 
    	style from a casement to bay, etc.  (be sure your eaves have 
    	ventilation vents - if not, put them in before siding is applied.)
                    

    Agree: 1. roofing, 2.siding, 3.gutters. My son is a roofing/siding
    contractor and he agrees also. Roofing material sometimes is dropped
    and may damage siding (not realy great damage, may require touch-up
    of paint). Gutters should be last as they get in the way of climbing
    on the roof and get in the way of installing the siding.

    I'd like to install gutters on a house with a gambrel roof.
    
    \<-roof   If I attach the gutter to the fascia with spacers, it looks
     \        as if the rain will undershoot the gutter.  I'm leery about
      \       not spacing it out because of moisture buildup eventually
       \      rotting the fascia.  Has anyone done this with a gambrel?
        \   
         \    BTW, the roof angle is about 70 degrees.
          \
          | <--Fascia               Thanks,
    
    				    Bob
          |

    I used Raingo plastic gutters and don't worry about the fascia rotting.
    I don't think there's enough contact between the gutter and the
    fascia to cause rot.
    
    Wooden gutters would be a different (no pun intended) story.

	I put up aluminum gutters with brackets, and now some  of the 
water manages to get between the facia board and the gutter and drip
down beside the house, a pain.  Can I just use some latex caulk and 
seal the facia board to the gutter, or should I flash it in.  Caulking
would be simpler...

Brad.

gee, this topic hasn't has any use in a LONG time, so...

I'm going to be putting up some gutters real soon (hoping I can find the time).
I committed a MAJOR crime and went inside a Summervill Lumber store.  Quite
frankly every time I go in that store I eventually live to regret it, but let's
not get into that one.

Anyhow, I thought I'd take a look at their gutters which were on sale.  I have
no idea what brand they were but from previous raves about Raingo, I was 
wondering if it was them.  What I saw did look rather flimsy and I have some
rather heavy wooden ladders I'd rather not crush gutters with, however one of
the earlier notes did say Raingo could stand them.  

My real problem is the hangers.  I don't particularly care for the exterior
ones that are highly visible.  Furthermore, the rest of the gutters on the
house are nearly seamless (1 seam in 40 feet) and I don't think it would look
right to have hangers every couple of feet.

So the questions are:

	o	was what I saw a Raingo gutter?  if not, where do I get them?

	o	if they were Raingo, is it possible to use some kind on internal
		hanger.  if not, does anyone make a DIY gutter without exterior
		hangers?

	o	if the only way to get interior hangers is to have the pros do
		it, does anyone know the 1988 rates?

-mark

>    	o	was what I saw a Raingo gutter?  if not, where do I get them?

    Probably.  I got my Raingo at Slummerville.
    
>	o	if they were Raingo, is it possible to use some kind on internal
>		hanger.  if not, does anyone make a DIY gutter without exterior
>		hangers?

    By 'external hangers' do you mean the metal brackets that nail to
    your roof?
    Raingo gutters go up with either external or internal
    hangers.  The external (metal hangers) are for if your fascia isn't
    perpendicular to your roofline.  I had to use the metal hangers.
    They're not all that visible because you can put them underneath
    shingles.

    >	o	if the only way to get interior hangers is to have the pros do
>		it, does anyone know the 1988 rates?

    Sears quoted me $360 for 2 20' sections with 2 downspouts.  It was
    $140 for Raingo materials.
    

>	o	if they were Raingo, is it possible to use some kind on internal
>		hanger.  if not, does anyone make a DIY gutter without exterior
>		hangers?

>>    By 'external hangers' do you mean the metal brackets that nail to
>>    your roof?
>>    Raingo gutters go up with either external or internal
>>    hangers.  The external (metal hangers) are for if your fascia isn't
>>    perpendicular to your roofline.  I had to use the metal hangers.
>>    They're not all that visible because you can put them underneath
>>    shingles.

Why I ever go into that store I'll never know!  The hangers I saw wrapped
completely around the outside of the gutter so that every couple of feet or so
you'd see the strap marks.  I asked the salesperson (and I use that term very
loosely) if there were any kind of straps that weren't visible and he said no.
I've seen the kind that nail to the roof and that's not my issue since I have
perpendicular facias.  Oh well, next time I'm in the area I'll stop in and try
to convince the salesperson there's another option.

For what it's worth, the display (which shows all the options), only has the
band type hangers.

Should I call a distributer and get the poop directly?  Anybody have a number?

-mark

    Re. .34
    
    If you do call the salesperson ask them why they don't have down
    spout 'Y's so you can join the 1st and 2nd floor down spouts. Right
    now it looks like I must drain the second floor into the proch gutter
    or make my own 'Y's. Both are mickey mouse solutions.
    
    _Bill

>        If you do call the salesperson ask them why they don't have down
>    spout 'Y's so you can join the 1st and 2nd floor down spouts. Right
>    now it looks like I must drain the second floor into the proch gutter
>    or make my own 'Y's. Both are mickey mouse solutions.

    I had to do the same thing.  It's probably because you'd have two
    pipes of one size flowing into a third pipe of the same size, which
    isn't usually done in plumbing.  (If you can call it plumbing)

I think there is some confusion in terms here.  I stopped in a Grossmans (since
I was in the neighborhood) and I figure a Raingo gutter is the same regardless
of the store.  I'm afraid I have to stand by my orignal statement that the
hangers are external as there seemed to be no other type.  I even called a
salesperson over to talk to him about it and he agreed.  The hangers wrap
around the exterior of the gutter and come in two flavors, those that are nailed
to the facia and those that are nailed to the roofs.  BUT both types external
to the gutter itself so I must go back to those who said they were internal
and probe a little deeper.  Do you still say they were internal (ie not visible
from the outside)?  If so, please tell me what kind of hanger you used since
Raingo does not make one.  If they were indeed external does anyone know of a
gutter with internal hangers?

-mark

I beleive there is a type of hanger which consists of a long (5-6"?) nail
which is driven through the top of the gutter from the front, through the
back and into the facia.  I think this may require a special type of gutter.

>    Do you still say they were internal (ie not visible from the
>    outside)?  
    
    No.  I was confused.
    I considered the plastic ones that wrap around the outside to be
    invisible since they're the same color as the gutter.  (Do you really
    think they look bad?).
    When you add the metal strap which nails to the roof, then it becomes
    'visible' and ugly.  But I think you're right that Raingo doesn't
    make internal hangers.
    
    I've installed the ones with the long nails.  You put a spacer inside
    the gutter and the nail (about 6" long) goes thru the gutter, thru
    the spacer, and into the fascia.  I don't think those are Raingo.
    

    Re. .36
    
    >>I had to do the same thing. My solution has an 'or' in it. What
    did you do, run the upper into the lower or build a 'Y'? I think
    I can make the necessary cuts to insert a downspout connector into
    the downspout thus forming a 'Y' but would like to glue it. I don't
    normaly work with plastic and am not sure what type of glue will
    work.
    Other random comments:
    
    They make 'Y's for metal cutters.
    
    If two ds flow into one - so what. It may back up and over flow
    but you should be building an ark and not have time to worry about
    it.  

My question is quite the opposite of the base note.  Would installing gutters 
cause any problems for me later.

My particular situation is as follows:  We have ridge and soffit vents on the
roof and we also have a perimeter drain around the foundation.  The perimeter 
drain was done at the time we did the foundation just in case we did decide to
install rain gutters later on.

Would the installation of rain gutters cause blockage of the soffit vents and
create problems because of it during the winters here in New England?  There is
a particular section at the back of the house where the meeting of two sections
of the roof create a valley that could cause quite a waterfall onto the deck 
in torrential rains, that has me particularly concerned.  I was thinking that 
if rain gutters were installed, they would catch the rain and alleviate the 
problem or would it backfire on me causing others.

Would like to hear some thoughts on this.

    Gutters go on the vertical portion of the roof overhang, facia.
    Soffit implies the hortizonal portion under the roof overhang. 
    Gutters should not block the soffit and not block soffit venting
    if installed normally.  
    
    Gutters will catch water runoff from the roof and funnel it into
    a specific location.  When installing gutters, you need to keep
    in mind the end location of all the water in your gutter system.
    Frequently, people will attach buried flexible black pipe to the
    down spout to direct the water to a drywell or a runoff gulley.
    
    Your perimeter drain is because you DO NOT have gutters.  The need
    for a perimeter drain will diminish with gutters because you will
    have less water around your perimeter.

re: .16 by OASS::B_RAMSEY 
 
Thanx for the clear explanation of where exactly the gutters are installed.  

>>    Your perimeter drain is because you DO NOT have gutters.  The need
>>    for a perimeter drain will diminish with gutters because you will
>>    have less water around your perimeter.

However, the only thing that confused me was the above.  I think what my husband
intended to do, was to have the rainwater from the gutters empty into this drain
via horizontal pipes.  Is that the wrong thing to do?

    Soffit vents aren't always on the soffit.  They can be part of the
    drip edge, which overhangs the fascia (at least, that's the way
    they are on our house).  I'd be somewhat concerned that snow collecting
    in the gutter might clog that type of soffit ventilation.
    
       Gary

    My understanding of a perimeter drain is crushed gravel at the base
    of the foundation with a pipe to take the water collecting in the
    gravel to another location.  Sometimes gravel is put up against
    the foundation about 6-18 inches thick as high as a foot below ground
    level.  The idea being that water travels easier thru gravel than
    dirt.  The water around your foundation then travels to the bottom
    of the foundation to collect in the pipe and flow away from the
    basement thereby reducing the risk of water in the basement.
    
    Gutters collect all the water falling on the roof area and divert
    that water away from the foundation, thereby reducing the risk of
    water in the basement.
    
    If you have your gutter system dumping the water from the roof into
    the perimeter drain, you are trusting that the perimeter drain can
    handle all the water dumped into it.  It the drain cannot handle
    the increased water flow in one spot, all the water from the entire
    side of the roof funneled into one gutter and down a single downspout
    into one localized spot in your perimeter drain, then you may be
    increasing the risk of water infiltration into the basement.

    If my understanding of a perimeter is wrong, than your method may
    be the better way to go.

    Does anyone have any experience with the use of gutters on a house with
    Hicks Vents?  These are the patented vents that are part of the drip
    edge.  Our builder says there shouldn't be any problem installing gutters
    but with our New England winters (as a previous reply mentioned) I don't
    feel good about doing it.  I need something over the front of the garage,
    the front door, and the rear door/deck.

    Kevin

    RE: .19
    
    Perimeter drains I've seen are 4" pipe.  If you backup a 4" pipe
    you've got REAL problems.
    

    	Re: Gutters & Hicks vents
	
		Ho problem  so  far with mine.  I've only had the gutters 
	up for  one  winter season and a mild one at that so it's hard to 
	say for sure.    But  from the looks of the setup it would take a 
	gutter full of ice  plus  2-4 inches on top before it would start 
	to back up into the  vents  themselves and at that point it would 
	start to lift shingles.  If  you  had  that kind of ice I'd think 
	you  had a heat loss / ice  dam  problem  rather  than  a  gutter 
	problem  and  at  that  point  you could do  as  I  have  install 
	gutter/roof heaters.
		
		BTW: The rest of the houses in my subdivision have had the
	Hicks vent & gutter combination for 4 winter seasons and  none of 
	them have had trouble.

				       ...Dave		
			

It wasn't until I read replies .18 and .20 and had gone back to check those on
my house again, that I found I had the same kind of vents they mentioned.

Re: .19
As mentioned in .20, it is a 4" pipe and it dumps all the water into a wetland
area, at a considerable distance from the house.

Re: .22

I suppose that would be the way to go.

All of these replies have been real helpful.  My thanx to all those that took 
the time to reply.

    
    I just had some gutters installed and the installer recommended
    adding a 4 foot section of perforated pipe to the 4 foot section
    of roughly horizontal downspout that currently carries the water
    away from the foundation. He said that the end of this pipe should
    be about a foot and 1/2 below ground level. If the horizontal section
    of downspout were above ground it would be as warm as the surrounding
    air. If there's not enough snowpack the ground could freeze to a
    four foot depth. My question is what happens on the first warm day 
    next winter when snowmelt comes rushing down this pipe and meets the 
    frozen ground? Will it fill up all the drainpipe and overflow or
    would the melted water tend to thaw the ground? 

    
    RE: .3
    
    Sounds like a formula for "Old Faithful" right next to your house!
    
    The set-ups usually terminate in a dry-well.

    I looked at all the gutter notes, and decided that this didn't really fit
    in any of them.

    We have wooden gutters that are in pretty rough shape.  There are leaks
    at corners and at the downspouts.  One contractor said that they weren't
    worth fixing, and suggested replacing them with aluminum, particularly
    because you have to maintain wooden gutters.  However, I really prefer
    the look of the wooden gutters.

    Has anyone repaired wooden gutters?  I know Somerville is always
    advertising them at $4.95 a foot.  Is there a better source?
    Can I just cut out the bad sections and put in new sections?
    Do wooden gutters have standard cross-sections?  Can I just caulk
    the joints, or should I use roofing cement?  How do I attach
    downspouts?  If I attempt this job, will I live to regret it?

    What's the proper way to maintain wooden gutters?

    Another question: the downspouts currently go into pipes that lead to
    the sewer.  I'm assuming this will remain legal (this is in Boston,
    where a major sewage treatment plant construction project is just
    getting underway.)  Due to the recent droughts, I'd like to divert
    all that good acid rain into a barrel in the summer, so I'll be able
    to water my garden (adding lime to neutralize the acid).  In the
    winter, I want to continue polluting the harbor... oops, dumping
    into the sewer.  Any suggestions on how to rig this up?

    I had wooden gutters for about 15 years on a new house and they
    finally rotted into nothing. Don't be too discouraged, they rotted
    because I neglected them - but there are things that can be done
    to maintain them.
    
    Depending on your house-lot location, you may get a buildup of leaves, 
    etc., which trap and hold moisture; sweep them clean Spring and Fall 
    and seal the inside once a year with pentox or something similar.
    
    Downspouts are usually put in from the topside of the gutter through
    a hole drilled just big enough to accomodate the diameter of the
    downspout and to prevent the flange on the top of the downspout from
    going through. (you can use the plumbing part of sink drainage that
    fits into the top of the gooseneck) This is held in place using
    standard weather-seal from a caulking gun. End caps for the gutter
    can use an extension of the gable-boards that runs from the roof-peak 
    down the roof-line over the end of the gutter; otherwise use treated 
    wood and seal the interface with the gutter with the above caulking.
    Regarding a rain-barrel, nice idea and nice touch; I wouldn't count
    on it to provide water for my garden because when it is raining
    you don't need water for your lawn/garden and if it hasn't rained
    for a while the rain-barrel becomes stagnant, algae will build up
    it may be a hazard for kids, animals, etc. and not fit for use,
    and you will need an overflow regardless. For effect, and to keep
    the "old rain-barrel" nostalgia, screen or cover the top with mesh
    and end the down-feed just above the lip of the barrel; this will
    prevent the bottom of the down-feed from sitting in water and rusting
    or rotting.
    Use caution when you are removing the old wood gutter, they are
    very heavy and should be taken down in sections; cut it into say
    4-foot sections while it is still in place and then remove it from
    the house. Trying to take it all down at once can cause broken 
    windows, ladders, torn shingles, etc. I wouldn't recommend replacing
    small sections; if it is bad in one or two spots, the rest will
    follow shortly.
    
    Have fun!!!

    Does anybody know where we can find cream colored downspouts?  (In
    Eastern MA/NH, Lowell to be exact.)  A neighbor said he tried all
    the hardware stores around with no luck.
    							Larry

    WHat about painting them? BTW- These are not the rain-go downspouts
    made of the " no fade vinal" that fades to cream color are they?
    
    -j

    
      There should be a small piece of lead or copper tacked across
    each joint of a wooden gutter. On top of this goes roof tar/cement.
    All joints are normally tarred from the inside. The gooseneck is
    a specially made piece of lead in the shape of a pipe with a flange
    on it. It is inserted from the inside of the gutter, tacked around
    the edge and then tarred over. This piece will hang down about 2"
    and is what goes inside the downspout. You should use roof cement
    to do the joints; it is cheaper and will adhere even if the wood
    underneath is/gets wet (although it should only be applied to dry
    or relatively dry wood).
      Wooden gutters need to be oiled with linseed oil at least once
    a year. (this is easily done at the same time the gutters are cleaned)
    They should be painted or stained on the outside but should NEVER
    be painted on the inside. If they are painted on the inside, any
    moisture that gets into the wood will not be able to dry out properly
    and will cause BOTH sides to peel and the gutters to rot out fairly
    quickly.
    
     That's it. A touch-up with tar at the joints and an oiling once
    a year and wood gutters should last at LEAST 30 years.
    
    					Kenny

    Somerville Lumber is the highest price that I found, the lowest was
    Lamson Lumber in Hudson, Ma at $4.25/linear ft. delivered.
    
    I bought a single forty foot piece and installed it in one piece,
    because wooden gutters tend to rot out first at any joints.
    
    My father has had the same wooden gutters for over 30 years and they
    are still in excellent shape. He treats them every 2 years with used
    motor oil. He does this when the gutters are very dry so that the oil
    soaks in well.
    
    If there is rot where the pipe goes through the gutters, you may still
    be able to salvage them. Instead of the lead pipe that is normally
    used, I used a galvanized 2" nipple about four inches long, that is
    threaded on one end. First, I drilled a hole in the gutter with a
    hole saw smaller diameter than the pipe, and then enlarged it a bit
    with a rasp bit installed in a electric drill. Then I screwed the pipe
    into the hole.
    
    You may be able to do the same thing if the pipe that is already in
    the gutter is smaller than 2" pipe, which I think it is. Since, you
    wouln't have any wood for the pilot bit of the hole saw, first take
    a small piece of plywood and drill the hole in that. Then tack this
    piece of plywood over the place where you want the hole. The piece
    of plywood with the hole will act as a guide for drilling the hole
    in the gutter.
    
    You can easily put up a forty foot section with two people. You will
    need a board tacked onto the house at either end to hold the gutter
    once you lift it into place. You just need a people on either end
    of the house on ladders to lift it. It really doesn't need any support
    in the middle, once it is lifted onto the supports, just put a 16 penny
    galvy halfway down the length of the gutter when lifted into position.
    
    I disgree about the wooden gutters be very heavy, one person can
    easily move them around on the ground, they are just unwieldy. They
    ARE very heavy as compared to aluminium. 
    
    Just last week I put this forty footer into place, and my wife was
    the other person helping me lift it up.
    
    There are other considerations to take in when doing this,
    so give it a lot of thought or do some research FIRST.
    
    	Steve

    No, I'm talking about real live, metal (aluminum, I guess) downspouts.
    I assume that the paint is baked on at the factory or something,
    and hand painting wouldn't last as well as the real thing.  If we
    can't find anything we'll have to get some and paint them.
    							Larry

    I always got the job of painting my parents' aluminum down spouts
    when they painted their house.  Used regular latex, same as for
    the siding.  The only place it didn't stay was where it got scraped
    from the screw on fixtures, but that would happen anyway.
    
    The perfect solution, and it will always match the house.
    
    Elaine

    Sears has several custom colors for gutters and downspouts.  We're
    getting a color called "cream".  They also have another color which
    is close to the cream called "ivory".
    
    Estimate is about $5 per foot installed for guttering.  Add some
    for downspouts and gutter-guard if necessary.
    
    	Ted

Know of anyplace in the Nashua, NH area to get extruded/seamless gutters?
I called everyone in the yellow pages but they all want to install it.  I
remember doing a job for my Dad in NJ in my student days and we drove to
some guys house with a ladder and carted home a 30 foot length he made for
us.

-Bob    

    
     I can't tell you where in N.H. to buy, but you might want to try
    a company called "The Grillco Corp" in Woburn Ma. at 617-935-7890.
    They supply most of the boston area with Gutter making machines
    and supplies. They might be able to tell you where in Ma or NH you
    can get what you need. They might even do it for you.
    
      Good Luck
    
      Ed
    

    Harvey industries is one place that you can get gutters made up.
    There are several locations in Mass, I assume they would have
    some locations in N.H. Harvey's can sometimes be tough on its
    "non-trade" customers, they like you to have an account. Talk 
    to the guy at the counter first, some are better than others.
    
    							Chris

    I, too, have those Hicks vents on my addition, and have been wondering
    about gutters, so thanks for all the input.
    
    Lee

While on the subject of drip edges...

I own a cape with an aluminum drip edge approx 10-12" wide running along
the perimeter of the roof.  I personally, do not care for the look of them
and am considering removing the drip edge - at least in the front of the house.

Questions:

1.  Do these things serve any real purpose?

2.  Any problems with removing them?

Thanks.

-jim

Those aren't drip edges, they are ice dam barriers.  They are there to make ice
dams slide off the roof, and to ensure that even if an ice dam forms, water
will not leak in.  The possible consequence of removing them (without checking
to see that ice dams are not a problem) is a leaking roof.  

In any case, to find out more about this, check the directory for the keyword
ROOF looking for information on ice dams - there's quite a bit here. 

Paul

I'm going to be using white stain  on redwood siding.  Do I need to use any
primer first?  The stuff I'll be using is stain, but since it is white it is
described as semi-transparent (or something like that).

Allen

    If it's really a stain, you won't need to prime it.  In fact, you must
    not prime it.  
    
    Bob
    

Need help on a semi-tricky (to me, anyway) gutter downspout design:

Just moved into a 3-year-old house that's got gutters pretty much all the way
around, EXCEPT for a ~20' section on the back of the house over the deck.  Not
having a gutter here is very annoying, not to mention damaging to the door onto
the deck.  

Gutter installation looks pretty straightforward, but I'm not sure where to
route the downspout. Attempted bird's-eye drawing of house, showing deck
location, is below.


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		|		________________	|	
		|		|		|	|
		|		|  deck		|	|
		|______________	|		|_______|

I need to install the gutter along the "edge of roof" indicated in the drawing. 
But where can I send the water w/o running a downspout across the deck? Should
I cut into the decking and aim the downspout under the deck? This may be
cleanest, except the deck is built very close to the ground and I won't be able
to climb under it if such an installation requires it.

Or should I make the downspout follow the roofline of the wall on the "left"
side of the deck somehow?  

Thanks for any suggestions. 

re: .12

	I would go with under the deck if I could. If the deck area is not to
deep (< 20 feet), I would attach 2 downspout sections together plus a 90 
degree corner and fish this under the deck. You can attach them easily with
pop rivets or sheet metal screws. on either metal or plactic downspouts.
Requires helper. See picture. If deck is less than 10' deep, use one
secton of downspout.

                   Deck                               helper grasp here
             -----------------------------------------------------||--
   grasp here           (downspout)                               ||
     =============================================================++

             ground
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\\/\\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\


	When you have fished the downspout up though the hole in the deck.
You can attach the vertical downspout to it (use either the screws or rivets).

	Dont attach the vertical downspout to the gutter until last!!!!

	You can then just let the downspout sit on the ground and place a
gutter wash plate at the outlet end (prevents dirt washout).

				Bill

    I have a senerio which needs some input/please help.
    
    I want to install gutters on my home but the shingles overhang the
    facia (?) board to much. Problem is there is a moulding in the corner
    between the angle made up of the roof overhang, and the facia board.
    
    Sort of looks like this:
    
    \
      \   <-----------roof
        \
      ___ \
     | /<-----------moulding is angle like this    
     |
     | <-------------facia board
     
    
    The molding prevents a "flush" mounting of the gutter, and the over
    hang would allow the runoff to go by the gutter. I was thinking of
    removing the moulding, and cutting back the shingles (oh no!)
    and re-installing the drip edge......
    
    Any gutter ahnger type hardware, to attach it to the rooftop ?
    Any idaes.......?
    
    thanx/Bob
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    We had a similar problem on our house, where the builders didn't
    bother to trim the ends of the roof rafters to vertical, so the
    fascia board is 90 degrees to the plane of the roof.
    
    We had seamless aluminum gutter, 32 feet long, professionally 
    installed.  They simply attached 23 triangles of wood to the fascia
    in line with the hidden rafter ends, at an angle which brought
    the gutter level.  The triangles were long enough in the horizontal
    to exetend the gutter to the proper relationship with the drip edge.
    
    pbm
    

    Re. .15: What did you pay for your seamless gutter job?
    
    Thanks,
    Mike

    Re .16
    
    We had seamless gutters installed front and rear of the main section
    of our gambrel.  In addition to the work described for the rear,
    it is important to note that the rear gutters are 2 1/2 stories up,
    or about thirty feet.  On the front, it was necessary to space the
    gutter away from the house and hang it from the bottom of the gambrel
    overhang by adding two lengths of p.t. wood the entire length of
    the house.  One downspout front and rear, runoff extensions ten feet
    from the house.  $650.  Two days.
    
    pbm
    

    I will be putting an alum. gutter in the next couple weeks. There will
    be a 90 degree bent at the front entrance. Does it require special
    tools to cut the alum. gutter to form a 45 degree angle ? I have a
    portable circular saw, jig saw and a rad. arm saw. Will any of these
    tools do it ?
    
    Ken.
    

    I believe you do not cut the gutter, you join pieces with a 90-
    degree adapter, just like plumbing.
    
    pbm
    

    Just tinsnips will work fine, if you do need to cut it; it's pretty
    thin.

    Question: How to verify source of leak on a hard rain ?
    2nd Q: Where is the leak coming from (any experience on his ?).
    
    
    Old Wooden house (ca: 1820)
       Major remodel to "wet floor area about 1920?????)
    
       Currently we're having a "wet floor" problem, on the  first floor
    of a old two story house.  Their is no obvious leak, and I've pulled
    the  old  wainscotting  of  the  adjacent  wall and kitchen chimney.
    There is no obvious (wet or stains) on the interior of each.
    
       I've taken up the finish floor, and found that the subfloor
    (18 - 24" subfloor boards are "soaked" on the wall ends.
       The cavity between the floor board ends and the (2 x 4s) to which
    they are nailed and "the sill" (about  a  4  -  6  "  cavity ..  the
    debris appear wet, but is not easily reached for confirmation.
    
       There is no cellar. Crawlspace (judging by base of chminey)
    looks to be about 8 - 10" high (deep ?).
    
       Near this area (2 feet away, under the  floor)  is  allegedly and
    old well dating back to (????). As a curiousity factor, there is a
    vent of some sort (made from a clay tile  with a steel cap) external
    to  the  house also near this same area (would a  well/cistern  have
    been vented for any reason ??)
    
       Also,  their  was a hole (in the ground) some 15 feet  from  this
    same  area  with  a  "clay pipe" feeding it, but no clear reason  or
    ouflow from it, which I also backfilled (for safety).
       
       Obvious wet floor is  on  every  "hard  rain", but not so much on
    light rains.

    
    Note: On another part of the house I had a "gutter" overflow leak
    coming into the house, but the leak was on the second floor right
    near the gutter itself.
    
       This leak is not so  obvious  (as  to  the  source),  but is very
    obvious  by  the  wet floor and  subfloor  (even  the  tips  of  the
    wainscotting is getting "soft" due to the frequent wettings).
    
       Gutters are in sad shape, and the structure of gutter, facia, and
    soffit is that they are integral to each other, (side view below).

                 // Roof Line  
                //  
               //

    |              | Gutter 
    |              |
    |      _       |
    \_____| |_____/ 
          | | Embedded Facia in recessed groove in old wooden gutter
          | |
          | |-------------------------------|
          | |                               |    
          ----------------------------------| Sidewall of house   
                   Softwood (solid) Soffit  |  (Weatherboard?)
                                            |
                                            __    
                                                Old Clapboard  on  remainder
                                                of outside wall
    
    
    -BobE.
    

    RE:.18
    
    	HAY! That's MY house your'e talking about!
    
    	I have seen rainwater do the following:
    
		Run down the top of a rafter to the sidewall, then run
    between the floor and the subfloor, cross the room, down inside
    another wall to the bottom of the house and rot out the sills
    and timbers. I found the leak when I was trying to figure out why
    the kitchen wall moved down 2 inches. That leak had been going on
    for years without any outward sign of trouble.
    
    	In order to have a problem like mine you have to have the right
    combination of bad workmanship in the house. First the ends of too
    many roof boards were all butted on the same rafter, this made a
    spot where was almost a water pipe on the rafter. The subfloor extended
    under the wall, finished floor was butted against the wall. the
    subfloor was old wide board flooring and badly cupped, the space
    that resulted was another pipe. The end of the floor away from the
    leak was about 2 and a half inches below the point where the water
    entered the flooring. Then the top of the foundation wall is at
    ground grade. Under that part of the house there is no celler or
    crawl space. The addition was built right on the ground. There was
    no way to see the leak.
  
    	My first order of business was to hire a roffer, quick! 
    With luck by next week I will have a whole new roof (without
    water pipes).
    
    	How is the overall condition of your house? Mine is BAD.
    I have to drill a new well, get rid of old well (under kitchen floor)
    re-side, re-wire, replumb, re-plaster, re-paint, replace windows,
    insulate, and install a heating system. 
    
     Kirk

re: -< Sounds like home >-

>spot where was almost a water pipe on the rafter. The subfloor extended
>under the wall, finished floor was butted against the wall. the
>subfloor was old wide board flooring and badly cupped, the space
>that resulted was another pipe. The end of the floor away from the
>leak was about 2 and a half inches below the point where the water
>entered the flooring. Then the top of the foundation wall is at
>ground grade. Under that part of the house there is no celler or
>crawl space. The addition was built right on the ground. There was
>no way to see the leak.

    Ditto ... ditto ...
    
    Turns out  the  gutter  was  so  full of moss and growth ...  (i had
    thought it was  just mildew growth that had covered a portion of the
    sidewall) .. it was about 1" deep in the gutter .
    
    PLUS ...  I  had  had  the  foresight to install a debris dam (drain
    screen) to keep the leaves,  sticks  and  other debris from clogging
    the drain pipe ...  it  worked  very  well.   It formed a dam in the
    gutter itself, and .. well . after I cleaned it out AND we had this 
    torrent of rains this past weekend all  looks  wwell again.  No more
    water on the floor (as of now).
    
    I also removed the screen ....
    
    -BobE
    

 

I've just had my house reroofed and am having new gutters put on some parts,
but in the front of the house I don't want a traditional gutter because I
don't have a good way to drain the water.  All I really need is to get the
water to all a bit farther away from the house - the overhang was cut back
a bit during the reroofing and I find the rain now splashes the house.

I remember seeing ads for a type of "gutter" that is actually slats like
venetian blinds.  It doesn't carry the water away, but breaks up the stream
and guides it a bit away from the house.  This seems to be just what I need.
But I don't know what they are called or where I can get them.

Does anyone have experience with these, and/or can name the product and
a supplier?

				Steve

I guess I ask hard questions....

Anyway, Greg Morris was kind enough to drop off some literature he had on
the topic.  The company is Weather-All and the product is their "Rain
Disperser System".  Greg says that they received a favorable mention
in Consumer Reports a few years ago, but couldn't find the reference.

The basic price is $19.95 for a five-foot section with brackets.  Shipping
is 10% of total.

The contact info is:

		Weather-All
		Quail Run #31
		Madison, CT 06443
	
		In CT: 203-421-5500
		Elsewhere: 800-942-3004
		FAX: 203-421-5501

    I went ahead and ordered seven five-foot sections to do the front of
    my house, and installed them this afternoon.  They went up easily and
    are indeed nearly invisible.  When I get some experience on how they
    behave in the rain, I'll update this note.
    
    				Steve

    Steve, I'd be very interested in your review.  I've been thinking about
    getting these "slats" for the front of my house also since I do not
    want gallons of water on either/both sides of my house......
    
    John

They're cheaper than having continuous aluminum gutters installed.  Consider
that the "Rainhandlers" are $4/foot and the quotes I got for gutters was
$5-$6/foot installed plus downspouts (which the Rainhandlers don't need).
They are also cheaper than good quality vinyl gutters and look better
(I had priced Raingo and though the gutter sections themselves were not so
bad, they get you with the brackets!)

Some more information - the five-foot sections attach to vertical soffitts
with three brackets per section.  The "ideal installation" is a 1x6 vertical
soffitt with a 2-inch roof drip edge.  If you have shorter or non-vertical
soffits, or a shorter or longer drip edge, they have adapters to compensate
(at extra cost).  They also sell a V-shaped diverter to use over a door.
They come in several colors and can be painted.  The sections snap into the
brackets and can be easily snapped out again if necessary.  They claim to
hold up well under ice and snow, and if leaves or pine needles accumulate on
top, you just hose them off from underneath.

I had put up the first section and had asked my spouse to come around and
look to see what she thought.  She looked all around and had to ask me where
I had installed it, as she hadn't spotted it.  Now this is not to say that
you can't see them at all, but like a good seamless gutter, they are very
un-obvious until you get right on top of them.  From any distance, you can't
tell they're there.

Delivery took four weeks, and they carry a 25-year guarantee.

					Steve

    I didn't realize that gutters were more expensive, especially the vinyl
    Raingos......
    
    I understand that these Rainhandlers "convert" the strong stream of
    water coming off the roof into finer "droplets" which doesn't cause a
    splash when it hits the ground.  I wonder how it handles the stronger
    stream of water coming off of a V section which totally diverts the
    water from over doorways?
    
    Good info here.....
    
    John

Re: .5

You have it right.  The price difference isn't great, so I wouldn't use price
as a basis for choosing Rainhandlers vs. gutters.  In my case, I didn't want
gutters because I don't have a good place for the downspout, and I just want
to spread out the water so it doesn't form a trench at the foundation, and
the Rainhandlers are just the ticket.  I have a diverter over my door
so I'll be able to see how it handles a stronger stream.  My prediction
is that it will do quite well.

The other stated advantage of Rainhandlers is that they don't clog up with
leaves and needles.

				Steve

    How far out from the house does the water get spread by the
    Rainhandlers?

Don't know yet.  It would depend on how high up they were.  I'd estimate that
they'd turn a thin sheet of water into a spray about 8-10 inches wide, and it
would be directed away from the house.  The slats are shaped like this:


					| | | | | | |
					/ / / / / / /
				       / / / / / / /

with about 1/2 inch spacing (maybe a little less).  The theory is that
at any normal distance above the ground, you'd get the drops scattered
much like a direct rainfall.  There are more slats than I drew above (I
think about 12 or so total).  The "ideal installation" has the edge of
the roof above the fourth slat in.

				Steve

Wouldn't it be cheaper and simpler to just put a layer of crushed stone on
the ground under the eaves?

   Gary

re .9:

Not if you want to plant stuff there.

Right - I have shrubs and plants there.  Also, that could lead to seepage 
problems in the basement (something I already had in the back of the house
before I installed regular gutters there). 

I'm not suggesting these are best for all situations.  But they appear to
be just what I needed.  Now it looks as if it's not going to rain for a while!

			Steve

    Pardon me if this is discussed somewhere else but I couln't tell from
    note 1111.
    
    Do gutter guards work? A couple times a year we have to get out there
    and clean the gutters. It's mostly leaves that clog up the gutters,
    especially this time of the year.
    
    Are there different kinds of gutter guards? Which are the best ones to
    use?
    

    Besides getting rid of the splash-effect, the other reason I need
    something like this is that all that water coming off my roof has
    drowned every bush/shrub that I've planted below it.  The water tends 
    to sit in that particular area.  I've read that the Rainhandlers
    disperse the water some distance away from the house, I forget exactly
    how much, but in my case, I remember that it would wind up on the lawn 
    in front of where I'd like to plant new bushes and shrubs.....
    
    John

I suppose if you have a large overhang, that makes sense.  In our case, the
water from the roof lands about 8-10 inches from the house.  Our bushes are
planted further away than that, and even then, the house inspector (Cornell)
said that they were closer than they ought to be, and that we should keep
them trimmed (though I'm not sure whether it's to prevent root damage to
the foundation or allow for air circulation in front of the house).  Either
way, rain on the shrubs isn't a problem.  (Snow on the shrubs is another
story.)

   Gary

    Why not take a hose up on the roof to test them?  That way you would
    know the disperment pattern.
    

    We recently put a large addition on our house, and extended the deck so
    it had access to a new door in the addition.  
    
    The roof now forms a valley which funnels rain water onto the deck, not
    a good situation.  The deck is not covered.  
    
    I've wondered about the most effective way to protect the deck (and
    people entering the house thru the new door) from rain water.  Would
    something like this slatted thing help, or should I install gutters and
    a down-channel?
    
    tony

re .11:

Will the slatted gutters disperse the water widely enough to prevent seepage?
How's the grading near your foundation?

re .13:

When one of Cornell's people (Rich Volpe) inspected our house, he mentioned
termites as the reason not to have foundation plantings too close.

    re: .15
    
    It sounds like you pretty much have answered your own question......
    
    The *most* effective way to protect your deck would be with gutters
    since the channel of water where your new addition and house meet will
    be dispersed by Rainhandlers, but *all* that water will still wind up on
    your deck.  However, don't forget to consider where the guttered water
    will wind up going, and weigh the differences.......
    
    John

Re: .15

I agree with John in .17 - you want gutters.  You'll also want a roof valley
diverter to spread out the gush of water down the valley and prevent it
from overloading the gutter.  (Rainhandler offers these too, since they
are even more necessary with valleys if you've got the Rainhandlers installed.)

				Steve

 The best guards I've seen is the wire mesh type.  The plastic mesh type isn't
that great, and after a good wind, it's gone.  The Fair deparment stores were
selling 3' sections of gutter screen with the clips to fasten, for $1.99
section, a while back.

    I bought some of those $1.99 screens, installed them, and removed them.
    Yeah, they kept the leaves out, but they gently arc in a fashion that
    made me think I'd end up with a big ice dam when the temperature
    bounces above and below 32F.
    
    In a one story house cleaning gutters is a 15 minute job for me.
    Frankly, I'm more concerned about the buildup of debris that makes it
    through the screen.
    
    Edd

I used the plastic mesh.  Any wind that can blow this stuff away will probably 
be strong enough to take the gutters with it.  So far, it's kept all the leaves
and 90% of the pine needles out.  Also, I can't imagine how this stuff could 
cause ice dams.  It is something to keep an eye one this winter, though.

    Steve, unless you're out-of-state over the weekend, I expect a full
    report on Monday on how well your Rainhandlers work!  :-)
    
    John

Yeah - when it rained Monday night and early Tuesday, I was disappointed
that it stopped before I got up.

I can tell you at least that the Rainhandlers don't trap leaves and pine
needles.  My regular gutters have been cleaned out twice since I put up the
Rainhandlers, but they only have one or two leaves stuck between the slats.

			Steve

    Well, we did indeed have plenty of rain yesterday.  By and large,
    the Rainhandlers worked as claimed.  But I wasn't able to really
    get a good feel for their performance because I had overlooked
    something during the installation.  Though my roof edge does come
    just about where it's supposed to, the shingles end right at the
    drip edging, and the drip edging comes down at an angle back towards
    the house (perpendicular to the roof), so what the water did was
    flow back along the drip edge and drop off there, behind the
    Rainhandlers!  I suppose I need to put in some of the drip edge
    extenders to get the water to come out and fall over the
    slats.
    
    But some water was falling on the slats, and it did break up the
    stream into a finer spray that was directed a bit further from
    the house.  The primary effect was to spread out the water over
    a wider area, not to move it away.
    
    				Steve

    Steve,
    	If you find any kind of drip edge extenders (or a good method of
    doing this) could you please post your solution here? I am having the
    same problem with my gutters. Thanks.
    
    Barry
    

    Raingo makes what they call a "No Nail Drip Egde" that is a drip edge
    extender.  I had the same problem with the water running behind the
    gutters.  One thing though, they lie.  If one wants the drip edge to
    stay in place, one has to nail them down.
    
    They come in 10' lengths and I don't remember the costs (but it wasn't
    TOO bad).
    
    -Bob 

The makers of Rainhandlers offer drip edge extenders in 5-foot sections
for $6.something each.  They have an adhesive backing to apply to the
sheathing and slip under the bottom shingle.  I only need about a half
inch or so - just enough to stop the water from following the original
drip edge back towards the house.

			Steve

    Would you like an El-cheapo solution to the rain gutters not getting
    the rain?
    
    Buy 18 inch wide aluminum rolled stock (~$35.00/100 feet. Comes in
    white also.)
    
    Cut in 10 foot lenghs (or so) 
    
    Cut lengthwise into 3 strips 6 inches wide. (use razor knife)
    
    bend at about 30 degree angle 1 1/2 inch, so that you have something
    like this:
    
                  4 1/2
              ----------------
                              \             1 1/2 inch
                               \
                                \
    
    
    Slide under shingles and nail every 4-5 feet. NAIL MUST BE UNDER
    SHINGLES - NOT THROUGH SHINGLES!!
    
    This worked fine for me on a ranch house. Your angles and widths are
    likely to be different on a Cape.
    
    P.S. The cutting process goes quickly if you have some 2X4's, clamps.
    
    
    Bill.      

    re -.1
    
    	I just put up a raingo gutter and have the same problem.  The
    solution in the previous reply is a good one but it would be even
    easier to just buy a roll of 6" flashing and eliminate the cutting.
    
    George

    George:
    
         You mean it comes in six inch widths? I didn't know that!
    
    Yes, buy 6 inch widths. Then the bending is a piece of cake.
    
    
    Bill.

    	Thanks to one and all. The solutions presented here are much along
    the same lines that I was thinking. Now that I know that my idea is not
    all wet (no pun intended) I can proceed. Thanks again.
    
    Barry
    

Hi,

I have an ice problem.  The snow is melting off my roof into my new gutters.  
Then it goes into the downspout and freezes.  Right now I looking at the
downspouts and the seams have burst and a half inch of ice is coating the
outside. The ice covers almost the entire downspout.  Is there a way to prevent
this from happening next year after I replace then again?

Jerry

    Re: .26
    
    Your downspouts must be clogged, then.  I can't imagine how under
    normal conditions there would be anything but a fraction of an inch
    of ice on the inside, and none on the outside.
    
    			Steve

    You can run an electric heating wire down the downspout, if need be,
    to keep it clear, the same as you'd put along the edge of the roof
    to prevent ice dams.  (Like .27, I'm rather surprised a downspout 
    would freeze up without some provocation, but I believe I've heard
    of it happening.)

    re .26
    
    I had the same problem and the drains were not clogged. It does not
    take long for drip water from the roof to freeze along the inside of a
    downspout leading to an eventual blockage.  I also had a problem with
    ice dams at the edges of the roof.  I looked at solving both problems
    by installing heating wires in a zig-zag fashion along the edges of the
    roof and then running heating wires along the gutters and down the
    downspouts.  
    
    After I added up the total cost of new gutters, downspouts and heating
    wires, I removed the gutters and downspouts and installed the heating
    wires.  When it rains, we get dripped on walking to the front door.  We
    also get MONSTROUS icicles hanging down from the roof edges where
    melted runoff goes based on the zig-zag heating wires.  I do not have
    unsightly gutters and downspouts that require upkeep.
    
    Dave

The real solution is proper ventilation and insulation in the roof so you
don't get melting when it's below freezing outside.  If you've got icicles
forming, you've got trouble.

			Steve

    I've got an adequate amount of ventilation/insulation.  What happens is
    on a relatively warm day (above 32) and the snow begins to melt it then 
    freezes inside (now outside) the downspout.  The sun warms up the roof 
    enough to melt the snow but when it reaches the cold already frozen 
    downspout that it freezes again.  I think the heated wire is a
    solution.  The only problem with that however is unsighlty wires coming
    from somewhere inside the house to the roof then down again through
    several downspouts.  By the way this problem only occurs on the south
    side of the hous.  Confirming the sun warming case verses the lack of
    ventilation/insulation.
    
    Jerry

I got a card from Rainhandler advertising a sale - buy three, get one free.
It also says that accessories have been reduced by as much as 43%.  The
sale ends Feb. 15.

See reply .2 for address/phone.

			Steve

I was only interested in 3 or 4 feet of the stuff and that wasn't an option.

Sorry, no.

    There are a number of factors that lead to ice buildup.  First is
    the insulation problem, second is normal melting that gets blocked
    as in the gutters and then backups under the roofing, and a third
    factor is the slope of the roof.  I had a reasonably insulated house
    in upstate New York and we had a big problem with ice buildup. 
    Whenever the sun melted some snow it would drip into the gutters and
    downspouts until refreezing took place, then it would backup.  
    
    The first part of the remedy was to take down the gutters everywhere.
    That worked for a while, but a few years later the right conditions
    occurred where the buildup problem returned.  I had the roof redone
    and what we did was install 36 inches of 90lb rolled roofing along the
    roof edges and a double layer in all valleys before shingling.  That
    cured it.  
    
    I thought that taking the gutters down would cause some water problems,
    but that did not occur.  The only drawback was that we got dripped on
    when it rained.
    
    The thought of spending money to heat a roof was less appealing.  I
    prefer to spend on money on more enjoyable pursuits.  The point is that
    with some planning for the problem, the roof can be constructed with
    the problem in mind and by eliminating obstacles you can eliminate the
    problem.

    Steve Lionel, it's been over 2 months since your last reply.  Care to
    update us on the Rainhandlers?  Did you fix that problem that you
    overlooked during installation?  How well do they divert the rain?
    Are you happier with them as opposed to having gutters?
    
    Thanks,
    John

I don't have any more info yet.  They don't catch leaves, that I can tell you.
I haven't yet added a drip edge.  I'll have to stand outside during a good
rainstorm to really see how they perform.

			Steve

    To resurrect this topic again...
    
    I've read all previous replies, and the thumbs up over Raingo vinyl,
    except for the fact that the hangers were external (visible)...
    
    I did some calling around and was surprised at how many different
    manufacturers of vinyl gutters there are, and that I cou;dn't find
    anyone that carries the Raingo!  Ok, I didn't call Sommerville
    Lumber...  :-)
    
    Before I considered the DIY option, I priced contracting-out for
    continuous aluminum, which averaged about $125.  This was for 36' and
    one downspout from 2 stories high with a bend due to a 2' overhang...
    
    After pricing each and every piece at a local lumberyard/hardware
    store, the vinyl sectional came to ~$119.  What was real nice was that
    they (Esty's, Groveland, MA) let me into their warehouse to inspect the
    materials, which btw, was called K-Snap made by a Canadian company
    called Plastmo.  Since I was a bit taken back by the cost, I decided to
    shoot over to another lumber yard whose over-the-phone prices were a
    bit cheaper.  And, no wonder, the stuff they had was garbage, which
    made me appreciate the quality of the K-Snap even more.  I then had the
    decision- for $6 more I could have someone put up aluminum or I can DIY
    with the vinyl.  Since I liked what I saw in the K-Snap, I went with
    it.  The vinyl appeared much more durable than aluminum plus I liked
    it's appearance, especially the downspouts and elbows- no accordian
    type ridges...
    
    Installation was easy, but tedious, and it didn't take me only a couple
    of hours like many have claimed with the Raingo.  I found the most
    difficult part being determining the sloping line across the 36' on a
    very uneven facia board(s).  Installing the hangers at 2' apart wasn't
    too bad, but moving the ladder was a pain.  Once the (18) hangers were
    up, the gutters snapped into place, completely hiding the hangers.  The
    gutter seams were joined by a connector that snapped over, and was
    cemented.  The downspouts and elbows fit together perfectly, as long as
    I cut accurately, and no cementing was needed nor recommended.
    
    All in all, after about 8 hours of labor, I was finished and very
    satisfied.  Aesthetically, it looks great, and in my opinion, it looks
    much better than aluminum.  It was worth the work.  Actually, it
    probably would've gone much faster had it not been for the intense
    heat, especially on friday.  Boy, what a sunburn I've got!
    
    John

Does anyone know if anyone in Central MA sells K-Snap gutters?  They sound good
to me!  If Groveland IS in central MA then boy am I embarrassed!

Thanks

    
    Don't forget an umbrella..... :-)  
    
              
    

Well, I forgot the umbrella but watched them during a rainstorm anyway.
Besides getting wet, I realized that the Rainhandlers didn't disperse the
water anywhere near as much as the advertising would have you believe. 
Possibly if they were installed on a higher floor, it would be different,
but overall I'd say that they don't make all that much difference in the
way the water falls off the roof.  However, if you have a high location
and don't want to worry about leaves, they would probably work well.

			Steve

    No need to be embarrassed- Groveland is in the very north-eastern
    section of MA!
    
    I can post a phone # for Plastmo (K-Snap manufacturer) tomorrow. 
    Unfortunately, it's not an 800 number, and they're located in
    Baltimore, if I remember correctly.  I called them during assembly just
    to make absolutely sure that the downspout/elbows do not get cemented. 
    They reassured me that the pieces all fit snug enough that cementing is
    not required.  Sure enough, they were right!
    
    Again, I am very impressed with the apparent quality of this product,
    and especially it's looks.  I've gotten many comments from neighbors
    who have the aluminum gutters/downspouts on their homes on how nice it
    looks...
    
    John

    RE:
    
    .40
    
    WHAT COLORS DO THE K-SNAP GUTTERS COME IN?  ALSO, CAN THE AUTHOR
    OF .43 POST THE PHONE NUMBER FOR PLASTMO (K-SNAP MANUFACTURER).
    
    THANKS.

    Very sorry, I keep forgetting to bring in that phone #.  I will make an
    extra effort to remember to do so tomorrow...
    
    Regarding colors of K-Snap, the only colors that I'm aware of are white
    and brown.  In fact, most of the vinyl gutter manufacturers offer those
    2 colors only also.  However, according to Plastmo, the K-Snaps are
    paintable.  I assume you'd need to clean the surface prior to painting
    with that surface prep stuff you use before cementing (but I could be
    wrong)...
    
    John

    			Plastmo Inc.
    
    			920 Shelley St. #D
    			Springfield, Oregon 97477
    			(503) 747-3330
    		or
    			8246 Sandy Court #B
    			Jessup, Maryland 20794
    			(301) 776-0200
    
    And, yes, according to the K-Snap brochure, these gutters are paintable
    using oil or latex-based paints.  However, as I suspected, they
    recommend that all surfaces be cleaned with "Plastmo Bond Prep", which
    is nothing more than a pcv cement prep.
    
    Also, if you're considering going with the K-Snap, get a brochure
    beforehand.  It includes step-by-step assembly/installation
    instructions as well as a complete parts guide so you can plan for
    every piece you need to buy.  Needless to say, this brochure is very
    handy (and necessary!)...
    
    Hope this helps!
    
    John

    Has anyone seen Plastmo in southern New Hampshire?

    John,

    Your first note in this string (back 5 or so) described your setup. 
    You went 36 feet with one downspout?  I vaguely remember that the
    instructions I got (from Raingo?  I forget) recommended that any length
    longer than 15 or 20 feet required two downspouts.

    Anyone-with-36-foot-or-so-runs,

    Does one downspout satisfactorily handle this length?

    Jon

    > Does one downspout satisfactorily handle this length?
    
    Judging by that torrential downpour we had this past Monday night, the
    answer is yes, no, and maybe!  Let me explain...
    
    First of all, I had the misfortune of being away from home at the time
    of that downpour, however, my wife carefully observed how the 36'
    gutter with only one downspout handled it.  She said the only time
    there was any `overflow' was only when the downpour was at it's peak. 
    We're talking buckets here.  And, only a roughly 10' section seemed to
    be overflowing, a section in the middle of the house where the roof is
    a wide-open space in between 2 oversized gable dormers.  However, the
    end where the downspout connects to the gutter did not overflow (back
    up) at all.  Now, a couple things to take into consideration.  1- The
    roof overhangs the facia board that the gutter is attached to by about
    four inches, so that about 2/3 of the gutter is actually under the
    edge of the roof, leaving only about 2 inches of gutter to actually
    catch the water.  2- The house is a 2-story Cape, meaning the roof is
    *real* long and steep.  Taking these 2 things into consideration, and
    the fact that *only* in the wickedest downpour there was just a
    *slight* overflow from the middle/wide-open section of the roof, I'd
    say that the 36' length with only 1 downspout works just fine.  As far
    as that bit of overflow, considering how minimal it was and that it was
    under the worst of conditions, I can live with it.  I could solve that
    by bringing the gutter out about an inch using a spacer behind each of
    the 18 brackets on the facia board, but it's not worth the extra work
    to me.  I'm perfectly satisfied with the way it is.  Also, with the
    gutter tucked in and under the roof the way it is, aesthetically, I
    couldn't ask for anything better looking and less revealing...
    
    BTW, when I asked contractors about installing their aluminum gutters,
    they all agreed that I could get away with just the one downspout. 
    Also, other homes in my neighborhood with similar length roofs get away
    with 1 downspout (although some do have 2)...
    
    Quickly scanning my K-Snap brochure (which is very detailed), I don't
    see a spec on maximum gutter length per downspout, nor do I recall
    seeing one when I read it thoroughly a couple weeks ago.  However, it
    does state that an expansion joint must be installed for every 25' of
    gutter.  This expansion joint blocks the flow of water therefore, 2
    downspouts would be needed with this configuration.  I did not install
    an expansion joint, so I suppose I'm taking some kind of risk here, but
    I don't think I'll have any serious expansion/contraction problems, if
    any at all...
    
    If I can be of further assistance, please ask...
    
    John

    We have 38' on our garage and 47' (thereabouts) on the house with no
    problems. Just make sure you check for debris in them ( we do have a
    problem with pineneedles...)
    
    Lynn
    
    

    Re .47
    
    We have 32 footers front and rear with single downspouts; no problem.
    
    PBM
    

    I just found a pamphlet put out by Raingo.  It recommended one
    downspout per 1250 square feet of roof.  Actually, its recommendations
    concerned its downspout *connectors* - those thingies that connect the
    gutter to the downspout.  Its "normal" downspout connector is
    recommended for no more than 700 square feet; its "high volume"
    downspout connector handles 1250 sq.ft.

    This look like the best place to ask this question.  We are having
    gutters installed.  In one of the sections we want to put a rain barrel
    under the downspout as the runoff would go right into our leach field
    if we just let it go.  I also figure the rain barrel will be a good
    source for watering the garden.  So, I need to know where to get a rain
    barrell.  The gutter installer said they usually are along the lines of
    an old oaken barrell with a spigot.  Even if I could get a hold of a
    barrell we could put in our own spigot.
    
    Thanks for any recommendations.  I live in Merrimack, NH
    
    Linda

I'd try Verifine (sp?) juice company in Littleton, MA.  They have 30-40 gal
plastic barrels that will last you forever, and you could always build a wooden
facade-type thing if you don't like their white or blue color.  Last time I
checked they were $5-$6 each!

Pete

  We have an oak barrel under our downspout -- got it for a few bucks from
  a small cider pressing operation in town.

  JP

    Only problem I can forsee with rain barrels is that your providing a
    perfect location for mosquito breeding...  ever notice little insects
    flipping around in the water???  mosquito larvae.
    
    Have any of you using rain barrels noticed this???
    
    Fra
    

The usual solution is a screen on top.

    I thought of mosquitos also.  Maybe if the downspout went all the way
    into the barrel and we covered the top and around the downspout with
    some type of screening?  
    
    Thanks for the Cider pressing idea.  I can call Currier Orchards here
    in town and see if they have anything to offer.  
    
    We already have a large black plastic barrel and we did think of using
    it (it's really ugly though and my husband will NOT be happy if I ask
    him to build something else this year).  But, in a pinch...

    re: mosquitos...
    
    My grandmother had rainbarrels under the downspouts on the farm
    and a goldfish in each of them there weren't any mosquitos to speak of.
    As kids we used to catch flies pull their wings off and toss them in
    just to see the fish come up and eat em. 
    
    -j

    40 feet with one downspout both front and rear on a 40' x 24'
    cape.  No problems.  I think the real problem is maintaining the
    downward pitch from one side to the other without it looking noticeable 
    non-symmetric.  With 40 feet and one downspout there is 3-4 inches
    difference from one side to the other.  I actually cheated and didn't
    slope the gutter the recommended amount because the mounting surface wasn't
    wide enough to support the recommended slope.  I have had no problems
    for the four years I have had them.   (These are Raingo Gutters) 

What's the best method to re-seal seams of old metal gutters?  Is there
a special product on the market for such repairs?

  Steve

While in the roofing section of Builder's Square in Nashua Saturday I saw
a caulk for sealing aluminum gutters.  They made some claim that it would
handle the expansion and contraction and stuck to aluminum.  I didn't compare
closely enough to see if the only difference was the packaging and price.

-Bob

    
    
    Well I've looked under Gutters, primer, and Paint ANd I cannot not 
    find anything related to my need.  
    
    I need to take and strip down the gutters which apear to be galvanized.
    They were painted two years ago by the builder and aparrently they
    did not use a primer of any kind.  The paint which was used is a 
    latex paint and it apears to have shriveled and shrunk in many places
    I don't know if it shrunk due to lack of the primer or the ambient
    temp when the house was painted, which was in arount the 1st week in
    november and the evening temps were droping to the mid 30's.
    
    What can I use to strip down the latex and then prime the gutter.
    
    Ben
    

    Well, when you do get the paint off, you should wash the gutters
    down with vinegar before painting.  That will etch the surface
    slightly so the paint will hold.  Rustoleum sells a special primer
    for galvanized surfaces, but it may be hard to find.  Lacking
    that, I'd use regular Rustoleum (or similar) primer, followed by
    a top coat of Rustoleum (or similar) gloss.  A good paint store,
    if you can find one, ought to be able to help you out with proper
    paint selection.
    

Zinnser also makes primers which can be used on galvanized metal - I think
their "1-2-3" is one of them.  It is indeed very important to use a proper primer
on galvanized metal.

				Steve

    
    
    THANKS.....
     
    
    
    Ben,
    
    

       Does anyone know of a contractor in the Central Mass. area
    (Leom,Fitch) who will clean gutters and do some small repairs? I DIY
    mostly around the house but don't like roofs. Thanks.
                                      Denny

    I'd like to have gutters put on my house and I have a few questions
    about what to use.  The house is a new colonial (in Mass.) with a front
    porch all the way across the front.  The base of the house is 26'x36'
    with an 8'x36' porch.  The main roof is 8 pitch and the porch is 6
    pitch.  This works out to a main roof area of 605 square feet per side
    and a porch roof area of 342 square feet.  Bad terminal drawing
    follows:

                               ^
                             /   \
                           /       \
                         /           \
                       /               \
                     /                   \
                      |                 |
                      |                 |
                      |                 |
                    / |                 |
                  /   |                 |
                /     |                 |
              /       |                 |
              |       |                 |
              |       |                 |
              |       |                 |
              |-------|_       ---------|
              |        |       |
                       |       |
                       |       |   <-walkout basement door
                       |       |     with retaining wall.

    I'd like to get seamless aluminum gutters.  I'll get three 36'
    sections.  Here are some of the questions that I have:


    1. Support type.  Should I use the hangers that wrap around the gutters
    and are nailed or screwed to the fascia board?  A company that came out
    and gave me an estimate wanted to use the method where a 7" spiral
    stainless steel nail is driven through a spacer in the gutter and into
    the fascia.  This is of course very difficult to ever remove.  Which
    leads me to another question...

    2. When are gutters removed?  Do you need to paint behind them often?
    Should they be easy to take down and put back up?  Do you only take
    them down after 15 years of use to replace them?

    3. How much can they handle?  Due to land sloping and other site
    considerations, I want to have one downspout for each gutter.  The
    installer suggested that the main roof gutter over the porch be drained
    down a short downspout to the porch roof, then the water would flow
    across the porch roof and into the porch gutter.  This makes me
    nervous.  It should be much better than having the water drip the 6-7
    feet from the main roof onto the porch roof, but is this concentrated
    "river" going to wear the roof abnormally in one area?  Running the
    main roof gutter straight down a downspout may be a problem as there is
    a large rock retaining wall at the base of the house.  Using the other
    side of the house is not an option due to slope/driveway/other.

    4. I have a strange fascia board:


                        /  roof
                      /
                    /    drip edge overhangs 1"-2"
                  /
	           | | |
                   |_| |    1x6 with 1x2 on outside
                     | |
                     | |
                     | |

       The drip edge from the roof hangs over the fascia about an inch. But
       the fascia is not all one board.  There is a 1x6 in back and then a
       1x2 on top next to the drip edge.  I'll probably have to add a 1x4
       to even out the fascia.  Since everything that's there is already
       painted, how should the new board be added to minimize rot? should I
       paint all 4 sides of the new 1x4 or just the 2 exposed sides?  The
       gutter company said that they would add these painted boards for
       $120, but I didn't ask how many sides would be painted.

    5. Will the long nail method split the fascia?  Should they try to nail
    into the ends of the underlying studs?


    The gutter company (out of Nashua, don't remember the name now) says
    that they guarantee the material and labor for five years.  (Fine, as
    long as they stay in business).  They claim that the method of using
    the long spiral nails allows them the attach the top of the gutter
    close to the fascia to get a good seal, which can't be done using
    hangers.  They also claim that the two ridges which run along the back
    of the gutter allow air to circulate (from below) and keep water from
    building up behind the gutter.  I asked the salesman about removing the
    gutters to paint and, of course, he said that you'd "never" have to
    remove them as the gutter will protect the paint on the fascia.

    Or is this all too much to worry about?  Should I just have them put up
    the gutters and check 'em every 5 years to see if they're still there?
    :-).

    Thanks for any advice.

    ---Phil

    I guess my previous note (.21) was too complicated since nobody has
    answered it, so I'll ask a couple of simpler questions:

    - Should I paint all sides of a board nailed over another painted board
    on the fascia or should I just paint the exposed sides?

    - Is it safe/normal to have an upper roof downspout drain onto a lower
    roof so the water runs across that roof and into the next gutter?

    Thanks,

    ---Phil

Firstly, I would use a pressure treated board to nail over the fascia and paint
it only on the exposeds sides.

Secondly, running the water from one roof onto another is quite common, and yes
it does help wear the aggregate off the shingles.  I can't say whether this will
have a significant effect on the life of the roof.

Would it be possible to have the gutter on the front of the porch continue 
around one end?  This would allow you to bring a downspout from the main roof
down into the porch gutter, rather than onto the roof.

>Would it be possible to have the gutter on the front of the porch continue
>around one end?  This would allow you to bring a downspout from the main roof
>down into the porch gutter, rather than onto the roof.

    This is certainly possible and may be a good way to go.  I'll look into
    it.

    Thanks for the reply,

    ---Phil

	Although I have been absent from this file for quite some time, please
	consider my reply.

	First off as your house is 36' wide, you only need a downspout on one 
	side of the main roof. 40' or over requires two downspouts, accorging 
	to code. You should however consider a complete continous piece to 
	relieve the area where the stone on the shingles could take abuse 
	from the roof water onto the porch.

	The drip edge on a roof is designed to deflect the water away from
	exposed wood. The 1x2 on top of the 1x6 helps ensure that this happens.
	As a matter of fact, this is a very common design and has been 
	incorporated into roof construction for many years. Some older houses
	have decorative moulding, instead of 1x2.

	While I am not aware of a specific code requirement calling for a 1x2 
	on top of a 1x6, defeating it design purpose is not a wise idea, IMHO.

	Putting a 1x4 into the space will do several things, painted or not.
	It will create an additional vapor barrier between the current surface 
	and the new piece. This will trap moisture no matter how hard you try 
	for it not to happen. If you use PT material, I'd suspect that the 
	facia itself would be the one to have the problem, rather than both
	if standard pine material were used. Moving the facia out even with 
	the 1x2 will also increase the chances of water going behind the
	gutter in front of the facia. Not good.

	While continous gutters are good, you should find out just what a five
	year warrantee includes BEFORE you buy, in writing. A person selling
	services will tell you anything to make a sale and sales/service 
	company will say what you want to hear to make a sale.

	Be informed before you buy and get a couple of written bids before 
	you buy.

	Dana May

        Dana,

        Thanks for the reply, I've been out of the file for while, too.

        You seem to be saying in your reply that I shouldn't add a 1x4 to
	fill in the gap along the facia under the 1x2.  If I don't add that
	board, will the gutter have enough support?  will the long nails
	that are driven through the top of the gutter hang it okay without
	the base of the gutter bowing in toward the facia?  Since I need
	to go 36' and keep a slope, I'm worried about splitting the 1x2.
	Or should the gutter be mounted below the 1x2?

        I agree on checking out the company and the warranty (in writing)
        before buying.

        ---Phil

    
    The house I am in the process of buying has wooden gutters.  The
    problem is that the gutters on the porch and bays have been covered
    over with replacement roofing.  These areas have no gutter system at
    all now and I want to remedy that situation ASAP.  What I really want
    to do is put wooden gutters back on these areas so as to match those
    on the main slate roof.  Any suggestions?  
    
    I've thought about extending the eaves by boxing in over the existing
    covered gutters and then putting gutters on this new boxing.  What do 
    you all think of that idea?
    
    Thanks in advance!
    
    Stu

    
    
    May be a can of worms but I'd find out why the gutters were covered
    

    
    Re: .5
    
    As I understand it, this seems to have been a fairly standard practice
    when putting roled roofing or asphalt/fiberglas shingles on an old roof
    with wooden gutters.  I guess people feel it's easier to cover wooden
    guttes and retain the visual properties with out having to maintain the
    wooden gutters.  I've seen this done alot and have read about it in Old
    House Journal too.
    
    It is a real waste though and will cause me a lot of time and money to
    deal with.
    
    MHO...
    
    Stu

    I too have wooden gutters. You can find them at a hardware store in
    Weston, Ma. called Oligilvie's (617)894-1265. Make sure you hang them
    off of the fascia board so that air can circulate around them. This can
    be done with something like lath or other type of dental moulding. You
    may also want to put a sheet metal drip edge on the roof.

>    I too have wooden gutters. You can find them at a hardware store in
>    Weston, Ma. called Oligilvie's (617)894-1265.

If by "them" you mean the gutters themselves, you can also get them at
Somerville Lumber (and probably at other lumber outlets as well).

It appears as if it has been some time since there were any new entries in this
note.  I am looking for some information and advice about seamless gutters.

We are currently shopping around for seamless gutters for our house.  We need
two gutters (one along the front and one along the back) as well as two
downspouts.  We live in Maynard, MA and our house is a "typical" split-level
style house.  The house has cedar shingles and is stained the "typical" red
colored stain that is used quite a lot in this area.

I am wondering if anyone can give me a ballpark price for the the installation
of one-piece seamless gutters for our house.  Any recommendations as to good/bad
installers would be appreciated (feel free to reply via e-mail if you prefer).

Also, I need some advice.  The house is all stained the same color including the
trim.  We would like to have the gutters match the color of the house so they do
not stand out.  While one-piece seamless gutters appear to come in several
different colors, none of the colors are even close to what we would need.  What
many different installers have told us is to get either a gray or brown colored
gutter; put them up; and let them weather for a while.  Then in the spring,
simply paint them the color of the house.

I have some concerns as to whether or not this is really the right way to go.  I
am worried that the paint (actually the house is stained with an Olympic stain)
will not stick to the gutters and I will be into having to get them painted very
ofter.

Any advice would be appreciated.

    I had seamless gutters installed on my house in Nov 92.  We had the
    front and back done along with 4 donwspouts.  We wanted the gutters to
    match the trim, but couldn't find gutters in the correct color, so we 
    roughed up the gutters with steel wool and then painted the gutters
    before installation.  We didn't rough up the downspouts, we just
    painted them.
    The clerk at the paint store assured us that Oil based solid color stain 
    would work on metal so that's what we used(we painted the steel cellar 
    bulkhead with it 2 years ago and it's held up great)
    The saleman at the gutter company said that starting this year, their
    supplier would be offering primed only gutters.  These are specially
    coated to be painted by the customer.  You might want to check this
    out.
    	We used Minuteman Seamless Gutters in West Roxbury Mass(they alsoi
    have an office in Framingham.  The gutters are made in one piece at
    your house using 0.032 Alcoa aluminum.  That's the thickest and best
    material available.   Installation took 1 day.  Cost was about $650
    for 130 ft of gutter and 90 ft of downspouts, elbows, brackets etc.
    	We were satisifed with the work/materials and very satisfied
    with the price.  The usual disclaimers apply...no conection with this
    business except as a satisified customer.
    
    	Minuteman Seamless Gutters
    	Chip Newman(owner) 
    	617-469-2709
     
    
    
    
    

> Also, I need some advice.  The house is all stained the same color
> including the trim.  We would like to have the gutters match the color of
> the house so they do not stand out.  

Another alternative is to get white gutters and paint/stain the trim white.
That would probably be about the same amount of work as painting the gutters.
Take a look at houses around you that have differently colored trim -- you
might decide (as I have) that contrasting trim makes the house look nicer.

There's a trick to making it easier to make trim boards and clapboards
different colors:  paint/stain the front face of the trim boards the
contrasting color, but paint/stain the exposed sides (that the clapboards
butt up against) the same color as the clapboards.  

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    
    
    	Hi, just wanted to repost this here.  I keep forgetting that I
    	had put it under misc. contractors when I entered it.  My
    	recommendation for these folks still holds.  Almost two years
    	later, and the gutters are still great.  I was on a ladder this
    	year to clean them, and everything is still nice and tight, and
    	the colors are still good, no chipping, etc.
    
    	Glenn
    
    
           <<< 12DOT2::NOTES$STUFF:[NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;1 >>>
                                 -< Home_work >-
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Note 2034.26    Misc contractors - if it won't fit anywhere else        26 of 53
SOLVIT::GROY                                         32 lines  12-NOV-1991 13:27
                    -< East Coast Gutter - Merrimack, N.H. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

	Recommendation for rain gutters for your house.

	EAST COAST GUTTERS
	Merrimack, N.H. 03054
	(603)-429-0739

	We have a new house, and had water problems in the basement.
	I heard about East Coast, and called them.  Jules Menard came
	out, and looked at the job site.  He came with color samples,
	and we found that he had a grey and blue that very closely
	matched my vinyl and trim colors.

	Because we wanted colored gutters, he had to special order the
	material, and it would take a week to order.  We agreed on time
	and money, and about a week later, they came out and installed
	them.  I was out of town, and my wife didn't notice the new
	gutters until Jules called that night asking about the work done.

	From the EAST COAST flyer:

		- New 5" Gutters
		- Available in a Variety of Colors
		- Completely Seamless
		- 25 years guarantee on material
		- 5 years guarantee on labor
		- In the business for over 10 years

	Conclusion:	work done on time, in time, good quality.
			no hesitation recommending them.  $250.00

    I'd love to throttle whomever installed my drip edge and gutter system.
    
    In many places the drip edge was not brought up to level and instead of
    forming a good drip corner, the water doesn't drip off the edge.  It
    just continues to run on the surface back and down behind the gutter.
    Dripping down the side of the house.  (in this wonderful winter weather
    forming icicles on the side of the house!)
    
    Also the gutter is not well sloped in places forming pools of water
    that never drain. eg: become moss forests.
    
    Is it practical to pull off the gutter (this spring) and reattach it?
    Any tips or techniques?  (aluminum gutters attached by those big
    through nails/spikes)
    
    It's hard to do anything about the edge.  Presumably it's attached in
    too many places to remove and reattach.  I'll check how far it does
    behind the gutter, and see if I can reasonably caulk the joint (as
    suggested in an earlier note)
    
    	Dave.

    
    Regarding the drip edge... been there, fixed that... two solutions 
    depending on how they are installed:
    
    	1. If nailed to roof and facia:
        A quick look at the back of the house will show you WHERE the drip 
    	edge isn't level and these areas can be fixed by tapping them down 
    	with a rubber mallet.  If you're careful you won't be able to see 
    	the slight bends.
        
        2. If nailed only to roof (common):
    	Often builders will nail them to the roof, but not bother to secure
    	through the tail on the underside, crude drawing of preformed 
    	drip edge follows:
    
                          #\          (# = House)
    			   #\         (Thin line = ventilated drip edge)
                            #\   
                             #\
                         ##  ##\
                         #______\
                         #|          <--- Often NO nails here.
                         #|
                         (a)
    
	   If you push up on the drip edge at point (a) and secure with
    	   roofing nails, the drip edge will distort slightly so the
    	   underside slopes slightly UP towards the house. This will force
    	   the water to drip off properly.
    
    								- Mac
                              

    
    When I did my roof over, I used wooden shingles for a Drip Edge.
    You overhang them about an inch.  Seem to work great.  
    
    JD

    I had the same problem. Went out and bought a roll of 4" brown aluminum
    flashing. Gently lifted the shingle near the drip edge and placed
    flashing under shingle. Used a few dabs of silicon caulk to insure
    that it stays in place and voila' all fixed and been workin fine
    for the last 5 years.
    
    
    PS: I'll NEVER use drip edge vents again. I'll pay the extra $$$ and
        use soffet vents.

    Is there really such a thing as a heating cable placed INSIDE the 
    gutter?  We're going to need to install a new gutter this year where
    one has never been before and since that section of the roof is 3
    stories high .... it seems like there could be a real problem if ice
    builds up.
    
    c
    

While I was at the Home Show in Boston recently I picked up information on
a new kind of extruded aluminum gutter called Englert LeafShield.  It was
unusual in that it had an integral solid leaf guard that curved down in
such a way that water entered the gutter but leaves (and, it claims, ice and
snow) falls off.  I have separate similar leaf guards from Brookstone and
I can verify the part about leaves and water (not sure about ice, but the
designs are a bit different.) 

The really interesting part of this is that because it is one piece, ice
which DOES build up in the gutter can't push its way into the soffitt; there's
no seam or opening there.  Also, the trough is shallower than traditional
gutters so there is less of a snor or ice load possible.

I was told that the cost per foot ranged from $6 to $10; supposedly they'll
be contacting me for an estimate, as I am VERY interested in this product.

				Steve

    RE: .55 Heating cable in gutter
    
    Sure, the roof de-icing cables can be put into a gutter.
    The Frost King (@HD) cable box recommends it.
    
    Of course they also suggest that the gutter be grounded and the cable
    be on a GFCI protected circuit.
    
    	Dave.

    
    Last year I read an article about a new product on the market that
    does a better job than metal mesh and plastic gutter guards but
    I can't remember the name of the company that makes them.  From the
    description, it sounds like a metal sheet with long holes at strategic
    places along the gutter guard to allow water to flow into the gutter
    but leaves just flow over the guards onto the ground.  Additionally,
    ice is not expected to build up on the guards.  I've looked for these at
    the usual home stores (in Massachusetts) but no one could help me
    out.  Probably due to my not remembering much about them.
    
    Has anyone heard of these newfangled contraptions?  Any pointers
    appreciated.
    
    Thanks.
    
    Phil

Gutters let snow, and ice, build up on them.  I don't understand how anything
you would put above a gutter would not let snow build up on it.  We had the
plastic mesh this year, and it sure let snow build up.

Elaine

I've tried a number of such products, both plastic and metal.  All of them
still allow pine needles to fall through as well as debris to pile up on
top.

My favorite guards so far are the solid kind sold by Brookstone.

				Steve

    I recently inquired about gutter guards for my house.  The contractor
    told me that the weight of the ice dams will push most wire or mesh
    guards down INTO the gutter itself thereby making it useless.  He
    said that you'd have to climb up and fix the guards.
    
    				-John

I haven't found that to be the case; I have mesh guards in front and they
are fine through the winter.

				Steve

A slightly different scenario, but I'll use this topic anyway.

I'm installing plastic gutter (runoff has been doing bad things to the 
driveway) and I'd like to paint it to match the trim.  Last time I put up 
plastic gutter over a small section over the deck, and I used a couple coats 
of latex directly over the gutter.  It's held up pretty well, but it's 
chipped off in a few spots.

Is there some sort of primer that will make it adhere better and prevent 
chipping?

Clay

Zinsser 1-2-3 primer is what I would recommend.  You can find it most anywhere
paint is sold.

				Steve

    What about vinyl dyes like those used to change car seat colors
    would that be better (no chips) than paint...
    
            Curious

    RE: .56
    
    Did they ever come out to your house. I am also very interested in this
    gutter. However they come in much higher than the other traditional
    style gutter estimates I have gotten. The other thing is they are an
    exclusive dealer for ENGLERT LEAFGUARD gutters and have just gotten
    started installing these gutters. 
    
    There are no customers to question whether they really work and since
    they just started no one has gone through a winter with them on the
    house. I also am concerned about having my house be a training ground
    for their installers.
    
    If the gutter really performs the way they describe it may be worth
    spending the extra $$$. They are supposed to come out to our house soon 
    and demonstrate the gutter and give us some comparisons of 
    LEAFGUARD vs. TRADITIONAL.
    
    We'll see...
    
    Dennis 
    
    

Yes, I managed to get someone to come out last month (!) - apparently there
were no NH distributors last year.  I didn't meet with the guy - he came out
and measured the house and sent me a quote - in line with traditional gutters.

They offer a "lifetime guarantee" against clogging, in that if it ever
does clog, they'll come clean it out for free (good thing, as it looks to
be a bear to do on your own.)

I'd probably have gone ahead and replaced my current gutter with the 
Englert but I have too much else going on in negative cash flow (landscaping,
etc.) and will defer it for a year or so.

				Steve

    I have a question regarding rain gutters. The gutters that were
    installed on my house (prior to my purchasing it) are "perfectly level" 
    making them excellent water troughs and lousy gutters. The water just fills
    up and runs over the sides. Somewhat defeating the purpose of having
    the gutters in the first place.
    
    My question is: Is there a rule of thumb to use for determining the
    correct pitch of a gutter (e.g. .xx" of drop for every x' of run)?
    
    The gutters appear to be screwed directly into the facea (sp?) board.
    What I thought would work is to determine how much I need to drop the
    far end of the gutter an either drill new mounting holes or elongate
    the existing holes (and use caulking to fill the change in the holes).
    Does this seem doable?
    
    Your recommendations on both questions is greatly appreciated  

>    My question is: Is there a rule of thumb to use for determining the
>    correct pitch of a gutter (e.g. .xx" of drop for every x' of run)?
    
    1/8" to 1/4" per foot is the general plumbing rule for slope. But,
    that can be hard to achieve on a lengthy gutter run. For example,
    a 40' gutter run would have to drop 5" to 10". That'll probably
    take the gutter off of the fascia board. 

    Put what ever slope you can in, but even if the gutters were
    perfectly level, they should drain most of the water out. If you
    have water flowing over the sides, you have either reverse slope
    and/or low spots, OR, you have dirt and junk clogging either/or
    the gutter it self or the down spouts.

    Charly

The gutter rule is not the plumbing rule.  I'm pretty sure the gutter rule
is mentioned in one of the many gutter notes.  You did look at the index,
didn't you?

    I just knew someone would point this out!!! :^)
    I tried Dir/key=gutter and dir/key=drain to no avail. What did I do
    wrong?? Or better yet, how about  sharing the gutter rule with me.....

See 1111.46

    An old roofer I once talked to said he used "half a bubble" on 
    his level.  You shouldn't need much slope.  If your gutters are
    truly level but are overflowing on a regular basis, most likely 
    either your downspouts are clogged or the gutters are too small
    for the size of the roof.

FWIW, contrary to popular belief, GUTTERS DO NOT CAUSE ICE DAMS.  All the 
trash on the evening news is uninformed weather forecasters messing with a 
topic for which they know absolutely nothing about.  Their college degrees 
are in meteorology, not architectural design or civil engineering.

If anyone cares to drive past my house you can see 78 feet of gutter across 
the front of my garage and not a hint of an ice dam or any ice on the eaves 
at all, for that matter.

My house is a different matter.  While there are no ice dams, there IS ice 
buildup on the eaves.

Ice dams are the result of a warm roof melting onto a cold eaves.  Ice forms 
on the eaves and a dam begins.  My house roof is heated, my garage roof is 
not.  It's that simple.

Gutters don't help the matter, but they're, most certainly, NOT THE CAUSE 
OF ICE DAM OCCURRENCE.

>Gutters don't help the matter, but they're, most certainly, NOT THE CAUSE 
>OF ICE DAM OCCURRENCE.

	Peter Hotten (of the Boston Globe) just clarified this, too.
He put it well - in the winter the gutters may freeze up and be useless,
but they still do their job the other 3 seasons.  If your house has ice
dam potential, it'll occur whether or not you have gutters, and the gutters
won't make it any worse.  In some special cases, gutters in conjunction
with combined drip edge/soffit vents can contribute to additional water
in the soffits, but it's an incremental effect, and not serious in
itself (I speak from experience, as my house is like this - until I fix
it next year...).

	We've just had a two day partial thaw, with temps hitting 40 degrees,
and sunny, and in addition to my extensive ice buildup...I had water running
down all the downspouts, proving that my gutters were helping.  Without them,
and the underground drains they dump into, that much additional water would
be dripping onto the snow mountains surrounding the house, worsening my
already damp basement.

	While on the topic of gutters - This Old House just showed a gadget
designed to avoid gutter cleaning - another variant on the cover-the-gutter
theme.  This one comes with a life-of-the-house guarantee that you won't
have to clean the gutters ever again - but at a cost of (in this case)
NINE DOLLARS per foot.  My gutters cost me $1 per foot to install, and this
metal sheet gadget can't cost more than 50 cents per foot to make - so that
guarantee must be covering lots of possible claims...or enormous profits.
It does look like it'd work in most cases, but it's an expensive way to 
avoid ladders, in my opinion.  But I'd love to try it for a more reasonable
price....

    The TOH guy installing the gutter thingie also stated that ventilation
    problems, rather than gutters, cause ice dams. 
    
    					andrew

>>              <<< Note 49.233 by PCBUOA::TARDIFF "Dave Tardiff" >>>
>>                             -< Gutters are Good >-

>>NINE DOLLARS per foot.  My gutters cost me $1 per foot to install, and this

That was $9/foot INSTALLED including cleaning of the old gutters and checking
alignment. There's a little bit of labor there.

Garry

He also stated that the mfr "guaranteed" that the gutters would never need
cleaning ever again...

My background with warranties shows that the cost of making a statement like
that is fairly low and spread over a wide base.  In turn, prospective customers
will pay more for a higher comfort level against failure - especially if it's a
"gadget".

Of course, we noters wouldn't fall for that!


/Chris

If this was the Englert Leaf-Guard, they guarantee that if the gutters do
clog, they will come clean them for free.  Given the design of this gutter,
it is a low-risk proposition for them.  I was very impressed by what I saw
of these at a home show and am likely to have them installed on my house
this summer.

					Steve

Unfortunately, the design of the "guard" is such that heavy rains simply 
splash over the gutter onto the ground below.   ...and ruin your garage 
doors or flood your basement or.....

No, it doesn't.  I have similar guards (separate) on my gutters already.  They
handle a very heavy flow - I've watched them during downpours.

				Steve

    
    On TOH they simulated heavy rain by using a garden hose... and nothing
    splashed out of the gutter. Seemed like reasonable way to test it.
    
    								- Mac

><<< Note 49.232 by CSLALL::NASEAM::READIO "A Smith & Wesson beats four aces, Tow trucks beat Chapman Locks" >>>
>                       -< Gutters DON'T Cause Ice Dams >-
>
>FWIW, contrary to popular belief, GUTTERS DO NOT CAUSE ICE DAMS.  All the 
>trash on the evening news is uninformed weather forecasters messing with a 
>topic for which they know absolutely nothing about.  
>...
>Gutters don't help the matter, but they're, most certainly, NOT THE CAUSE 
>OF ICE DAM OCCURRENCE.

Well, this blanket statement needs some moderation...

Gutters might not CAUSE ice dams, but they CAN surely (but not always!) 
make them worse.  Furthermore, I have seen instances where I am fairly sure
that an ice dam WOULD NOT HAVE FORMED without a gutter in place to hold
the initial ice.

When the melt water from a snowy roof gets to the edge, it will either
fall off or freeze.  Now if you say that only snow melt counts as the cause
of an ice dam, then the gutter has no part in the story,
but since most of us don't live in a glacial climate, all the snows that fall
on our roofs eventually will melt off, so whether the initial melt is caused
by poor insulation and  ventilation or normal solar heat, there will be melt.
On a 28 degree day, the roof will warm in the sun and some water will run off.
At the edge of the roof, this melt will fall into a gutter.
If the gutter is full of 28 degree snow, the melt water will not drain.
The snow will turn to ice.  As more melt lands atop the snow/ice, 
some of it too will freeze, some will fall off, and some will form icicles.
There will be buildup.
Look at the guttered roofs around you.
MANY will have ice build-up that extends up to the roof edge.
If this isn't an incipient ice dam, what is it?

Gutters have their purposes.  If you need to control water run off from your
roof because of grade erosion, or cellar seepage, or splash from the ground,
or runoff over your doors, then use gutters.
If you don't need to control the runoff because you have good drainage
or you don't care where the water falls, you are better off without gutters
on at least that part of your roof, in part BECAUSE of the effect
that gutters can have on ice dams.  
They may not cause them, but they can make them worse.

- tom]

>Gutters don't help the matter, but they're, most certainly, NOT THE CAUSE 
>OF ICE DAM OCCURRENCE.

> FWIW, contrary to popular belief, GUTTERS DO NOT CAUSE ICE DAMS.  All the 
> trash on the evening news is uninformed weather forecasters messing with a 
> topic for which they know absolutely nothing about.  Their college degrees 
> are in meteorology, not architectural design or civil engineering.

	What makes you think they even have college degrees at all,
	never mind in meteorology?  The major part of weather forecasts
	come from the Feds with their big computer models.  Local forecasters
	I believe just massage the data and give it some fluff (entertainment
	value).

	In any case I don't believe I've heard too many (if any, that I
	can recall that is) say gutters cause ice dams.  As .241 (Tom)
	said (btw, what happened to .242 and .243?), while gutters don't
	cause ice dams, they do cause other problems and/or aggrevate the
	ice dam problem, depending on the circumstances (trying to extrapolate
	from your one data point is something only polititions do :-).

	On my parents house the gutters on the front of he house only
	cause water to backup from the gutters (after they are filled
	with a solid chunk of frozen ice) to into the soffit.  For the
	first 5+ years or so after they got the gutters they never had a
	problem on that side of the house.  It was that winter a couple
	of years ago or so that saw the problem the first time (and they
	went 15 years before the gutters with out ever a problem there).

	Jeff, who is still trying to convince my parents to re-roof their
	25 year old roof BEFORE IT FAILS, not AFTER, and to convince them
	to put down ice&water shield two widths up the roof, not just 1 .....

    
    >	Jeff, who is still trying to convince my parents to re-roof their
    >	25 year old roof BEFORE IT FAILS, not AFTER, and to convince them
    >	to put down ice&water shield two widths up the roof, not just 1 .....
    
    And not use Hicks vents... which gutter ice can backup and plug,
    thereby defeating ventilation and seriously aid (yet not cause entirely
    by themselves!) the creation of ice dams.
    
       - Mac
       
    (Whose removed his gutters this year because of his Hicks vents)
    

>	What makes you think they even have college degrees at all,
>	never mind in meteorology?  The major part of weather forecasts
>	come from the Feds with their big computer models.  Local forecasters
>	I believe just massage the data and give it some fluff (entertainment
>	value).

Well, a couple of storms back, when they were predicting the Cape Cod Canal 
to get whacked and the rest of us hicks west of 495 were to get a token 
accumulation, channel 56's weatherperson had us in the 12-18 range.

>        - Mac
>     (Whose removed his gutters this year because of his Hicks vents)

	Speaking of which, I had told my folks to remove the dam gutters
	before winter starts ....

	Anyway easy way to remove gutters so they can be put back on again
	in the Spring?

    
    >	Anyway easy way to remove gutters so they can be put back on again
    >	in the Spring?

     Most aluminum gutters are driven in with gutter spikes and designed
    NOT to come back off. Most vinyl DIY gutters are snap-in models. They
    leave a series of hangers attached to the soffit. If you REALLY want 
    to remove the gutters before winter and put them back up in the spring, 
    go with the snap-ins. 
    
    Personally, I always thought that someone should invent smooth
    half-pipe gutters suspended on a lengthwise shaft... that way you could
    just invert them in the winter. ;-)
    
                                                                  - Mac

    	Having thought about what I saw on TOH about the gutter covers, it
    appears they tried to create an angle where they could get as much
    money as possible out of it. That's the nature of business, so I'm not
    really knocking them too much. 
    
    	If what they said about the costs including the cleaning out of the 
    gutters, then they should apply a discount when installed over brand new 
    gutters. They would incure less labor on a new installation and it
    should be reflected in the price.
    
    	Few things that you can do to a roof are as easy as this installation 
    appeared. At $9 a foot, the vast majority of this is profit and potential 
    warranty work. Even at that, I suspect the warranty was actualy worded
    something like "for as long as *you* own the house". The installation of 
    the gutter itself is much more labor intensive and material intensive, yet 
    it costs less to install than the shield.
    
    	Ray

$9/foot is rather typical for an installed price for seamless gutters.

				Steve

    Anyone know where I could purchase some Yankee gutters?(the sheet metal
    things that divert the water over doorways).  Home Depot doesn't carry them.
    
                     /\
                    /  \      Yankee gutter
                   /    \
      ---------------------------------- roofline
    
    
    
                    _____
                   |     |
                   |     |
                   |    o|
                   |     |
                   |_____|
    
    
    thanks

    	I saw them at HQ in Manchester, NH. Can't remember the exact price, 
    but they were expensive for what they were (two pieces of sheet metal with 
    a 90 degree bend).
    
    	Ray

    Why not just use 2 pieces of angled sheet metal. I did this many years
    ago and its worked just fine. I just tarred them to the roof without
    nails to avoid any possibility of leaks.
    
    Ray

Says he found that people weren't willing to pay as high a price as they needed
to sell them at. Also said nearest distributor is down in Lynn, Mass. and that
he doesn't come up to southern NH.

						Trace