Conference 7.286::home_work

    I'm in the process of entirely renovating my kitchen (and I do mean
    entirely! I went all the way down to the studs/joists on all six
    surfaces!)

    I'm about to put the new cabinets in and plan to put ceramic tile on
    the walls between the upper and lower cabinets.

    Tile is an area in which I have no experience. Anyone out there have
    any war stories, helpful comments, or any good sources on this topic?

-mike

As with most home repair jobs, I'm sure Fine Homebuilding has a good article
on it.  If I remember, I'll try to find what issues to look in.

Paul

	I tiled part of my bathroom about two years ago and all the tiles are
still on the wall and looking good.  Color Tile and probably all the other
chains have good instruction brochures on each type of tile work (floors,
countertops, walls, etc.) that tell you just about everything you need to
know.  Here're a few observations from my experience:  As I recall, the tiles
were only a small portion of the total expense.  There's a bunch of tools you
probably have to buy and they kind of hose you on them, plus there's all the
preparations, adhesives, grout, caulking, sealer, etc. that you have to buy.
They do loan you a tile cutter ($50 deposit, I think, but no rental charge)
...be sure they give you plenty of sharp replacement blades...they go fast.
It's very important that your surface is flat before you tile, since tiles
tend to exaggerate any unevenness.  Also, plan on your work area being a mess
for a few days (sounds like you already have).

	Enough rambling...All in all, it was very worthwhile.  I am planning on
doing more tiling in the future (upstairs bathroom, entry room floor, etc).  
Should be somewhat cheaper next time, since I already have the tools.

	Good luck!

						- Rich

Oops, I said that tiles exaggerate any unevenness, but what I meant was *gross*
unevenness, like if a large part of the wall bows inward or outward.  Obvious-
ly small dings will go unnoticed.

							- Rich 

There was a very good article on tiling kitchen counter tops and walls I
believe in last month's NEW SHELTER. It gave directions and provided some
pictures of how it should be done. I can send you a photo copy of the art-
icle if you would like. Let me know your loc/mail stop if you would.

	Steve McWilliams

RE.2

What kind of special tools (other than the rented cutter) are needed ?

Joe

According to the article in NEW SHELTER,the cutter was the only special tool
necessary. 

Steve

I've ceramic tiled two new bathrooms, and a hall floor. I am pleased with
the way it came out, although I *still* havn't finished the hall floor!

here's some .02:
I used these small plastic spacers that make spacing the tiles much easier..
its kind of like painting by numbers. If you are putting tiles on the wall
at the backs of your kitchen counter, you may want to run a line equidistant
from the countertop along the wall (as opposed to running a level line along
the wall). That way, if your lower cabinets are not level, it won't be
noticable by looking at the different size tiles around the room.
I had two cutters... one was rented from Tile City- they come in different
sizes, depending on the tile. The other cutter I bought at a plywood raunch
and looks to me like a strange shaped wire cutter... good for making curved
cuts (I scored the shape I wanted, then used this cutter to work my way to
the scored line giving a decent success rate).

re: .several (special tools)

Sorry it took so long for me to get back to this.  I'm not sure how special
the tools are - some might be used for masonry or other work, also, but the 
ones I can think of are a grout float for pressing the grout into the spaces
between tiles, a rectangular trowel with different serrated edges for applying 
the adhesive, and an odd kind of sponge (almost like a scouring pad, but not 
so coarse) for wiping off excess grout...then there were a few more ordinary 
things like a more normal sponge and a bucket.  I think the kit was around 
$20, which seemed a little expensive for what was there, but it was convenient
and I didn't feel like shopping all over for the coupla things I'd never seen 
before, anyway.  It seems there were a few more things in it, but I can't 
remember exactly what they were (like I said, it's been a coupla years).  

Also, another tip...be sure to wear rubber gloves when you do the grouting.
It contains Portland cement, which will really do a job on your hands.
                                                                      
Hope this helps.

							- Rich

I have moved recently and naturally cannot yet find the issue with the article
in it. Sorry for the delay,but I have been searching high and low. It may
be too late by the time I find it,but will still send anyway when it turns
up.

	Steve Mcwilliams

      

    We just went through the same process.  The only thing is we used
    a solarian floor.  I put the cabinets in after laying the floor,
    much easier.
    
    In your case, you would want to take into account the cost of the
    ceramic tiles, that will never be seen, sitting beneath the cabinets. 
    I doubt it is worth the extra cost.
    
    					Steve

    
    Just to give you an idea of cost, we're putting down some medium-
    quality ceramic tile in our new house, and the installed cost is
    $10/foot. That's a lot of $$ sitting under your cabinets..    

    My understanding is that the tiles should go down last to eliminate
    the possibility of damage to the floor during cabinet installation.
    
    It's easy to crack or shatter a tile by dropping an electric drill
    or Skilsaw during cabinet fitting.  It's also easy to slop
    glue/paint/varnish on your nice new floor before it ever gets used.
    
    -- Ward

    I've been thinking the same thing.  Tile first, and then put in the
    cabinets. 
    
    My reasoning is that the tile is going to be permanent, goddammit.  It
    seems like it would be pretty tough trying to match the tile in any new
    areas you uncover in future remodelings.
    
    Comments?
    
    -joet

    re:.4, even tile is not always permenant! We recently (2 years ago)
    installed tile in the kitchen figuring it would be the last floor
    we ever installed. Since that time, we have had problems with tiles
    cracking (whole rows, even though the installation included the
    proper sub-floor, etc), and now have second thoughts about the
    foreverness of tiles.
    
    I would go for floor last, and in future, opt for a hi quality
    linoleum.
    
    Dave

    We just bought ceramic tile to replace the linoleum in our kitchen.
    Like Tony in .0, we are wondering if we should rip out the cabinets
    and tile under them.
    
    Most of the responses so far seem to indicate that its just too
    much money to tile an area that you'll never see.  (I tend to agree)
    
    However, I have heard a couple of things that are making me think
    twice...
    
    	 - If you tile under the stove/oven you'll have a fireproof
    	   barrier between the oven and the subfloor.   Hmmm, that sounds
    	   good, although I haven't seen any statistics on this type
    	   of grease fire.
    
    	 - Once the tile is in, in many cases, it becomes very difficult
    	   to pull out an under-the-counter dishwasher to repair/replace
    	   it.  This concerns me since with the addition of, lets say
    	   a � inch subfloor plus the tile, we probably couldn't pull
    	   out our dishwasher if we had to.
    
    Would anyone care to comment further on these oven/dishwasher issues?
    
    Also, can anyone recommend a "really good" professional tile installer
    in the Nashua/Tyngsboro area?  While I'm usually a DYI-kinda-guy,
    I'm gonna wimp-out on this one and let a pro do it.
    
    					- Don

    Bill Barrett here in Nashua is good.  He just did our bathroom.
    I like the result.

    You shouldn't really have any problem with removing the dishwasher.
     Dishwasher's usually have adjustable legs.  You can just lower
    the dishwasher and slide it out.  Do the tiling yourself.  It's
    easy!
    
    -al

Another vote for doing the tiling yourself!  I've never done a whole floor, but 
I've done fairly large hearths for wood stoves and have done some tile 
backsplashes in my kitcken.

If you DO decide to do it yourself, I'd suggest buying (not renting) a tile
cutter.  SPAGS (naturally) has good prices on them.  The second thing to watch
out for are any of those strange shapess you have to cut that can't be done on a
tile cutter.  If you have (or have access to) a table saw, a masonary blade does
a real noce job on tiles.

-mark

         Alot of people make the mistake of rolling heavy appliances
    over a newly tiled floor before the cement cures. Tile under all
    appliances, not under cabinets, and for gad sakes....... let the
    damn cement and grout dry! I myself went with a Mannington never
    wax floor in the kitchen, and a mosaic tile in the mud room.

    The problem I had with a tile floor is that I didn't use
    thick enough plywood under the tiles.  I have a 2 foot 
    span between joist and I have 3/4 shiplap over that covered
    with 3/8 plywood.  It seemed pretty solid but the floor
    moves enough for the grout to crack between the tiles.  It
    doesn't sag enough to notice it, other than seeing the
    grout crack in spots.  I used 3/8 plywood because I wanted
    the tiled floor at the same level as the rest of the floor
    which is 3/4 wood over the 3/4 shiplap. (The tiles are 3/8 inch).
    Next time I'd use 3/4 inch plywood under the tiles.
    

    A good tile man is Gary Shostak he work's here at DEC in MK
    He can be reached at tractr::shostak 264-5759

    We had that done two years ago (by professionals).  What they did
    was cut out small sections of the roof along the edge and stick-built
    the new front, rear, and one side wall.  They then installed trusses
    and put the new roof up over the old.  When it was all shingled
    they cut the old roof into app. 4x4 sections with a chain saw and
    tossed it out of the end that thay hadn't built, then closed in
    that end.  This was done in January and the whole process mentioned
    above took about 1�-2 weeks.
    
    Good luck!

    
    I am thinking about putting ceramic floor tile in my kitchen and
    have never layed tile before.  There is linolium tiles on the 
    floor now and have been stuck there good for about 20 years.
    Instead of ripping the linolium up, since I think this would
    take a big effort, I thought I might be able to nail down some
    plywood over the tiles and start form there.
    
    Has anyone tried this?  Does this sound like a bad idea?
    
    Also, when I take the toilet out of the 1/2 bath, am I going
    to have trouble putting it back since the floor will be higher?
    
    - Ted Salem
      A Novice homeworker

    
    
    	Ted,
    
    	I have done this both in my kitchen and bathroom.  What you
    	do is lay 1/4" luan plywood over the linolium.  Nail it down
    	with flooring nails about every 6" or more.  It is important
    	to use plenty of nails.  
    	This will not be a problem in the bathroom, when you replace
    	the wax seal when reinstalling the toilet, you should not
    	have a problem.
    
    	The 1/4" luan can be cut with a sharp utility knife, which makes
    	life easy.  This soft surface gives a good clean bonding surface
    	for the tile.
    
    	Once you've got all your plywood down, snap chalk lines to mark
    	the center of the room.  Once you've got a good straight line
    	the tile is fairly easy to lay.  
    
    	Any tile store can give you good directions on how to put down
    	the tile.  Mine came out very nice.
    
    	Tony

    There's no problem nailing plywood over the squares.  However,
    remember that you'll be adding height to the floor.  If this
    creates a "trip" plate with abutting rooms, its best to rip up
    the existing vinyl and luan.
    
    If you have luan over a subfloor, set a circular saw to cut thru
    the vinyl and luan only.  Then score strips and start prying.  It
    is a bit of work, but for reference, I removed the existing vinyl
    and luan in a 14 x 28 area and layed new plywood in less than a
    day.  The worst part was pulling old nails from the subfloor and
    as usual, cleaning the mess/disposing of the rubbish.
    

    
    	My opinion....rip up the existing floor.  Yes it is a real pain,
    but do you really want to invest  all that time and money putting
    down new tile over a questionable base?  I ripped out *four* layers
    of various stuff off of my floor.  What is the height of your floor
    around the thresholds.  If you add plywood and tile will you need
    a step ladder to get into the room?  If you rip out the old stuff
    your floor will be at the proper level and you can put down thicker
    plywood.
    	Try some selective excavation.  Rip up one corner and see what
    you are dealing with.  If there is not too many layer I'd really
    consider taking up the whole mess and starting from scratch.  If
    you are putting down ceramic tile you want a real solid base.
    						=Ralph=

    I have also layed tile in a couple rooms (kitchen and bathroom).
    In both cases I opted to rip up the existing linoleum.  This was
    fairly easy in the kitchen (12x18) after renting a machine from
    Taylor (although I would imagine that other places would have similar
    machines).  I forget exactly what it was called, but it had a motorized
    blade at the business end that allowed it to get under the linoleum
    and chip it right up.  I had to be a little careful, though, so
    as not to gouge the subflooring.  That left a smooth enough surface
    over which the luan was SCREWED down.

    In the bathroom, I had a slight problem with the toilet, since the
    floor was now about 1/2" higher.  The wax seal wasn't enough.  To
    solve the problem I obtained, from my favorite plumbing supply house,
    a rubber extension joint.  I then cut the pipe (original 4" copper)
    and spliced in, with hose clamps, the extension joint.
    
    For subflooring, I doubt that I will ever use nails again.  It is just
    too hard to eliminate all the squeeks.  Once I started using drywall
    screws, I had no further problems.  (Other than buying them 25 lbs
    at a shot :-)
    
    - Mark

    I am in the process of doing the same thing.  I had carpet, over
    linoleum, over some kind of tile (looked like rubber, about 1/4"
    thick).  I ripped it all up, as well as the plywood subfloor in
    the bathroom since water damage had caused the plywood to rot. 
    
    From everything I've read and heard about tile, the most important
    aspect of a tile project is the support underneath.  Leaving old
    flooring, in my opinion, would not give rigid enough support for
    the new tile.
    
    Removing the old flooring in the bathroom was not as hard as I thought
    it would be.  As a previous note suggested, adjust a circular saw
    to cut the floor just through the plywood.  One tool which I found
    worked *REAL* well was a wonder bar.  That used in conjuction with
    a little hammering at times removed the old tile and sub-floor fairly
    quickly.  Just be careful when hammering around the walls.  You
    might also want to get a pair of nail removing pliers for the real
    fun part, those damn ring nails.
    
    Phil
    

    
    I'm putiing in a ceramic tile floor and kitchen cabinets. Should
    I tile around the floor cabinets or under them? The square footage
    is minimal so the cost of the tile isn't a consideration. Tiling
    under the cabinets will save a little cutting. Are there any other
    considerations? Thanks.
    
       mitch

    Tile around them.  I can't think of any real advantage of tiling
    under them.  You will probably still have cutting to do if you go
    under them.

        IF YOU CONSIDER CHANGING TILES SOME WERE DOWN THE ROAD
        YOU WILL HAVE A PROBLEM REMOVING THE TILE THAT IS UNDER
        THE CABINETS. IT WAS SUGESTED TO ME WHEN I WAS REPLACING
        THE FLOOR IN MY KITCHEN. THIS FRIEND SAID TO ME IF YOU
        PUT UNDER LAYMENT DOWN FIRST WITH CABINETS ON TOP, HOW
        WILL YOU BE ABLE TO REMOVE THE UNDER LAYMENT IF THE
        CABINET IS ON TOP OF IT?
          IT WILL BE EASER TO CUT TILE THAN CABINETS.
    
    
    
    
    
                                        LOU RAYMOND

    Its been suggested to me that some form of waterproof flooring should
    be used under things like the dishwasher, sink and frig.  These
    are the areas that may some day get wet, when things go wrong.
    
    don

    RE: .3
    
    Sometimes designing for the worst case is neither cost effective
    nor practical.  So the subfloor gets wet.  It will dry out.  The
    water has to go somewhere.  You can't waterproof everything.

       The right way to do it is to NOT tile under the cabinets. The
    main reasons are to enable you to shim easily if needed and the fact
    that the cabinets should last as long as the floor so you don't
    have to worry about cabinets not matching the floor later. 
    
     You definately should put the subflooring down first. With the
    cabinets and all, on top of it. If you don't you can into clearance
    problems with the toe space under the cabinets and getting the
    dishwasher under the counter etc.
    
      Do make sure that you tile the space under the refrigerator, this
    will enable you to pull it out easily for cleaning or replacement.
    
      Note that the sequence for tiling a kitchen is quite different
    than for a bathroom.
    
    	Kitchen				Bathroom
    
    subfloor				subfloor
    cabinets				closet flange
    tile				tile
    dishwasher etc.			vanity etc.
    					toilet
    
    				Kenny

    re .5, bathroom tiling sequence:
    
    I thought I read somewhere that the closet flange gets installed
    on top of the *finished* floor (including tile), to guarantee a
    tight fit to the toilet. Anybody got a plumbing code?

If you put tile under the cabinets, how do you plan on attaching the cabintets 
to the floor?

Paul

    
    re .7: I didn't plan on attaching them to the floor. I usually just
    attach them to the wall and let gravity do the rest. An island type
    installation would not be possible without drilling through tile.
    I assume it is this situation to which you are referring?

    Re: .6
    
    I just tore up my bathroom floor and the flange is definitely higher
    than the subfloor.
    

I was going to put down ceramic tiles in the family room downstairs in our
split, there is some kind of tiles under the carpet, I have already got
rid of them all, but my question is: how about the old adhesive? Color Tile
said to remove all old adhesive, is it really necessary? What other things
I have to watch for when laying tiles on cement floor?

Thanks for any advice!

/C.c.

     The closet flange does go on top of the floor, but you have to
    screw it to the subfloor which is best done with an appropriate
    thickness of plywood just under the flange BEFORE you do the tiling.
    That way you don't have to worry about getting screws through the
    tile.
    
      As for attaching the cabinets to the floor; it just isn't done
    except in an island situation. It isn't easy to do even if you want
    to because with premade cabinets there is no access to the frame
    that sits on the floor, except on the outside but that would show.
     For a vanity type of cabinet, 2 to 4 screws into studs in the wall
    and it will never move, and not much more is needed for kitchen
    cabinets.
    
    					Kenny

    I'm not absolutely sure that it is necessary, however it would 
    seem that the cleaner you can get a surface, the better the new
    tile will stick.  In any case, I am doing a similar project, and
    got Color Tile's old adhesive remover.  It is some relative of 
    basic paint remover, and it works GREAT! Comes out as a gel, and
    after spreading around and letting it sit for half an hour or so,
    the old mastic is reduced to a soft putty which is EASILY removed
    with a putty knife.  Any spots that were too thick to completely
    soften can be hit with a second coat.  
    
    One word of warning: the stuff is STRONG, be SURE you have GOOD
    ventilation!! I was working outside, and had to make sure I kept
    my nose a respectful distance away.  (not bad smelling, just strong
    a'la lacquer thinner, or MEK, probably not too healthy to breathe)
    
    Kevin

    It's not even necessary to attach the island to the floor.
    Gravity will do the trick especially when you load up the
    island with stuff.
    
    I would definitely tile under an island.  Who knows, you
    might want to move the island around.
    
    -al

    I just discovered this note and am in the process of laying down
    tile in my bathroom. It had linoleum, and we decided to lay 1/4
    plywood over it instead of ripping up the old stuff because some
    contractors had told us linoleum has asbestos backing and all. So
    we thought it was more trouble than it was worth. The linoleum is
    about 10 yrs old, and the floor was still in good shape, so we thought
    it was alright. 
    
    After reading the last 7 notes, I'm starting to wonder. Did we make
    a big mistake by not tearing up the linoleum? I just put the plywood
    down and just about to start tiling. Should I grin and bear the
    task of tearing everything up? Or will the floor and tiles be allright
    the way we've started?
    

    The name of the game is rigidity.  If the plywood you put down is
    rigid enough to prevent the tile from flexing then you should be
    OK.  The new surface also gives the mastic something to bond to.
    So, it sounds to me like you should be alright.

      Point well taken about possibly moving the island at a later date.
    I would however definitely attach the island to the floor if it
    contains any appliances or plumbing.
    
    					Kenny

      Maybe yes, maybe no. Trouble is, you won't know till it's too late.
    
    					Kenny

    I put hardwood flooring in the kitchen a few years back after ripping
    up the linoleum and the sub-floor.  I moved the cabinets out first!
    I am now very happy that I did.  At the time I felt it would be
    easier sanding.  Now the wife (she has great ideas - no, I mean
    it. It is a good idea) wants the cabinets on the other wall and
    we'll tear down this wall and make the room bigger.
    
    If you ever want to move or change the cabinets, I'd tile under
    them.  Course, that drastic a change might mean a new floor too.
     I'm happy that I don't need to worry about the floor.

    The decision to tile has probably been made at this point but I
    wanted to add my 2 cents as a person who lived with a tiled kitchen
    floor.  Be aware that these floors are verrrrrrrrry cold and nearly
    every time someone drops a dish, glass, etc., the utensil doesn't
    just break, it shatters and scatters.  Getting tiny shards of glass
    out of the grout lines is no treat.  Tile floors also cause a lot more
    leg fatigue for the person who prepares the meals than a vinyl floor.

    
    I am in the process of putting a ceramic tile floor in the kitchen.
    I have a question on how to joint the tile with the wall to wall
    carpet. The kitchen entrance joints the hallway which has a thick
    wall to wall carpet ( approx. 1/2 inch with padding ). Right now
    the edge of the carpet is protected by an aluminum strip that runs
    approx. 3 1/2 feet ( the width of the kitchen entrance ). I already
    put down the 1/2 inch plywood subfloor that goes up to the edge
    of the aluminum strip and already layed tiles on the whole kitchen
    floor but the section that joints the carpet. I talked to a friend
    of mine who says that I should remove the aluminum strip first and
    lay tiles up to the carpet and then re-install the aluminum strip
    so that it overlay the tile to make a nice straight joint. That
    sounds like a good idea. But I already cut the subfloor that is
    just touching the edge of the aluminum strip. There is no way that
    I can have the stip to cover some tile. Also the subfloor + the
    thickness of the tile + motar is approximately 3/4 inch higher than
    the hallway floor. Although the carpet is 1/2 inch thick which is
    still 1/4 inch lower than the finished tile floor. Is there something
    I can use to joint the tile floor with the carpet so it will look
    good + won't give an uneven height feeling when step inbetween the
    tile and carpet with a bare foot ?
    
    

    The best way to join two flooring materials like that is with
    a threshold.  It is best to have the final height of the threshold
    to be slightly higher than the surface of the tile.  That way when
    there is water on the tile, the threshold will prevent it from running
    onto the carpet.
    
    The two materials used for threshold are marble and oak (or some
    other hardwood).  Marble thresholds are available in different dimensions
    from tile stores.  You may have to cut it the width of the kitchen
    entrance.  You can probably buy oak thresholds as well or you can
    make one out of a strip of hardwood flooring.  Get rid of the
    aluminum strip and replace it with a tack strip.  You can even use
    the tongue side to hold down the carpet.  (you have to do a little
    planing to get it to look right)
    
    Put the threshold down first and use masking tape on it before you
    mortar or grout the tiles.

			    	+---------------+ <-- plane off to get
			    	|_		|_	a nice rounded edge
    This side towards tile	 _)		 _)
    Fill grout above groove	|		| Tuck carpet under tongue
			    	+---------------+

    -al

    
                             Ceramic Wall Tile Designs
    
         I am currently planning to tile the area beneath my kitchen
    cabinets and i would like to get some information. I currently have
    a sufficient amount of tile to do the job but I would like to add
    some accents to the tiles. They are all plain white gloss tiles
    3 3/4" x 3 3/4". I am looking for someone to either paint about
    ten of the tiles or to provide decals to emboss on the tiles. I
    didn't buy the tiles that way because Tile City in Nashua would
    only give me a credit slip on some returned materials from a previous
    project. The only way to get my "money" back was to get the tiles
    (plain white) there. The designs I have in mind are along the order
    of an herb (like rosemary,thyme,etc) "painted" on the tile and the
    tiles placed randomly on the wall for accents. Any ideas out there?
    I live in the Southern N.H. area.
    
    thanx
    michael
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    Tile City in Framingham has just what you're looking for.  We just
    bought some about a month ago.  There is a drawback, they're $4
    apiece, compared to $1.50 for a plain almond colored tile.  They
    do have white too.
    
    					Steve

    I'd take one of your white, plain tile and visit a couple of other
    tile shops in the area. If you bought your white tile at the tile
    City on rt.101a in Nashua, there is another tile place heading west
    along the same road. I forget the name but it's in the small plaza
    located across from Wendys. You should be able to match some other
    tile that will offer a design. Painting something on a already glazed
    tile could prove to be a waste of time (rubs off over time). Decals
    may be a possibility but I'd prefer a factory painted and glazed
    tile, they should be the most durable choice. 

>         I am currently planning to tile the area beneath my kitchen
>    cabinets...

You could always just *tell* people there were designs on the tile.  
They probably won't move the cabinets to check.  :-)

RE: .3

I believe they meant under the overhead hung cabinets...

It is possible to repaint/reglaze pottery and refire it, but it is a tricky
business.  Your best bet is to find someone who makes handmade pottery...

Jim.

    	When I tiled my backsplash and counter top my wife had some
    hand painted tiles made with a flower pattern.  She gave the woman
    the 'plain' tile and the woman painted and fired on the design.
    They were expensive, about $8 each, but they were *exactly* what
    my wife wanted.  Perhaps you can ask the local tile store if they
    know anybody who does custom tile painting.   
    
    					=Ralph=

    This summer I ran across a pottery place that did this.  Aside from
    the tile they also had sinks and other bathroom type fixtures with
    designs.  Some really nice stuff.  Can't remember the name but it is
    on 101A maybe 30 to 45 minutes outside of Nashua.

    thanks for the help. aside from the grammar adjustments, it sounds
    like the ceramic shops would be my best bet. again thanx.
    
    michael

    The plywood is really to supply an even surface for the new flooring.
    One caution when using ceramic tile is that any "give" in the sub-floor
    will cause the grout to fail.  You might have to use thicker plywood
    if the original vinyl floor is solid.
    
    Bob

    Can ceramic tiles be laid over new vinyl flooring without installing
    plywood or ripping out the vinyl tiles?  I have read the replies in
    this note but am unable to determine the risks, particularly given 
    that the current floor is 80 years old.
                              
    Thanks,
    Jim
    

    re: tile over linoleum
    
    Aren't some of the linoleums (linolea?) out these days padded and maybe
    spongy enough to cause the cracking of the grout on the tile layer? 
    
    -joet

My wife heard somewhere that you can re-glaze ceramic tile to change it's 
color.  (She's always inventing work for me)  Anyway, the ceramic tile back 
splash in our kitchen is very dark (ugly) and we would like to change it.
The tile is in great shape, less than three years old, so we can't justify 
taking it out except as a last resort.  So the questions are:

	1) Anyone heard of re-glazing tile and how difficult is it
	   to do?  How well does it come out? How long does it last.

	2) How difficult would it be to take out the existing tile
	   and re-tile the back splash?

-JFK-

    
    >>	1) Anyone heard of re-glazing tile and how difficult is it
    >>     to do?  How well does it come out? How long does it last.

    Are you thinking DIY?  I wouldn't try that unless I had some 
    experience and access to a kiln.
    
    >>	2) How difficult would it be to take out the existing tile
    >>     and re-tile the back splash?
    
    That's a *real* fun job, especially if you are going to reuse
    the same tiles.  You'll have to get all the cement off the
    back of them, before you reuse them.  If it were me, I'd
    look for a good buy on some new tiles, particularly if the
    backsplach isn't that big.
    
    -tm
    

    The Family Handyman had a small article this year about painting
    tile to change the color.  They made it sound very easy, and no
    one has written in to counter the article yet.
    
    It almost sounds too good to be true.
    
    Elaine

somehow painted tile sounds like it would look like painted tile.

I guess it all comes down to what you think will look best.  Assuming a normal
size backsplash (whatever that might be), I'd think you could rip out what is 
there and replace it with new tiles for a reasonable price.

-mark

    Some friends of mine had this done in their bathroom. It looks okay
    but is very sensitive to scratches. One good scrape and the old
    tile color is showing through. They wish they had re-tiled. But
    maybe it was just bad materials or something. 
    

    	Can one take down the old tiles and not have to replace the
    wall?  My inlaws want to change the color of their kitchen from
    70's green to a more mellow yellow color.  After putting up 200
    ft� tile last month, I'm not sure that I could take down the tile
    and not wreck the walls.  When I had to pull out some tile
    that had been set for a couple of days (forgot to put in the TP
    holder!) I took out some of the paper off of the sheetrock.
    	They have skimcoat walls so they're a bit harder.  How does
    one remove old tile?  I was ready to use my trusty hammer and chisel.
                                                   =Ralph=

    RE: .16
    
    Painted tiles look like painted tiles.  They don't look that hot.
    
    
    RE: .18
    
    Sounds like re-glazing is no better than painting.
    

    RE: .19
    
    I'd try a flexible putty knife to remove them.
    
    

    Phil

when I tiled my kitchen backsplash, I had to remove formica that was glued to
skim coat!  the result was a mess.  much of the skim coat and paper came off
with the formica but some didn't.

what I did was simple trowel on some mastic (no notches) allowing it to fill all
the ridges and valleys and dry completely - the instructions said to do this
with a thin coat so I figured I'd just use a thicker coat.  Later I put on the
second coat with notches and then the tiles.  Looks great!

I was always a little nervous about how well the mastic would stick to the the
uncovered gypsum, but so far no problems.  I would imagine you could use the
same philosophy with tiles.  Simply rip them off and put the new ones on top
of what is left (after smoothing it out).  If you have really wide expanses,
couldn't you simply rip out the sheet rock and put new rock down?  I don't even
think you'd need jointing compound so it's be pretty easy.

-mark

    I just bought a condo in an eighty year old building and need to
    do some renovation.  Since I am an unexperienced DIYer, I figure
    my classromm will be the pantry.
    
    The pantry floor is the original hardwood with some adhesive
    from layers of vinyl flooring and it seems solid although a little
    unlevel due to settling.  Anyway, I would like to put in a
    ceramic tile floor and, having read many useful notes, am unsure
    if it is necessary to put down 1/2" or 1/4" plywood.  I understand
    plywood may be necessary for additional support but will it be required
    over the original hardwood floors?
    
    Any assistance or guidance is greatly appreciated.
    
    Jim
    
    

    
    The reason for plywood under tiles is to provide a stable base.
    If there is any shifting or movement in the subfloord, the grout
    will crack and loosen. If the hardwood floor is very stable, just
    put the tiles right on it. I don't believe that 1/4" plywood is
    going to help much. I would say that you would need at least 5/8"
    to really make a difference. That thickness, along with the tiles
    would give you quite a height difference where the pantry floor
    meets the kitchen. (My guess)
    
    It might be easier to consider refinishing the hardwood floor that's
    already there. I would guess that hardwood would bring better resale
    value than tiles. I'm sure there are many notes in the conference
    on refinishing h/w floors. You might also find that a less expensive
    alternative. Don't worry about old glues on the floor. Ir it's really
    hardwood, that stuff didn't penetrate and is usually easy to remove.
    
    Hope this helps
    
    JMB
    

    Another reason for putting down plywood is to give a completely
    flat surface, i.e., no voids or cracks. It also gives the tile cement
    a clean surface to bond to. That's why they make plywood with no
    voids on one side.
    	But, I agree with .1. Why cover up a nice hardwood floor? I
    for one would take a hardwood floor over anything. And, as was
    mentioned, it is a big PLUS to have hardwood floors because they
    are a sought after item.....
    
    just my opinion...
    
     Bob
    
    

         Thanks for the clarification about the purpose of putting down 
    plywood before tiling.  The current floor is reasonably flat and should
    give the necessary support for the ceramic tiles.
    
         I understand your concerns about convering up a hardwood floor
    but I don't think it is a big deal in a pantry.  This room will
    have a washer, dryer and lots of stuff which could make maintenance
    of a hardwood floor a real pain.  
    
         By the way, the rest of the condo has beautiful hardwood floors
    which I wouldn't dream of covering.
    
    Thanks again for the input,
    
    Jim
         

    The professional who put in a ceramic tile floor in a bath for me,
    and gave an estimate for the kitchen, said that he would never put
    tile over anything but a concrete base.  Ceramic tile is too brittle
    to be put over any kind of wood - even a luan - surface.
    
    This was his opinion.  The difference being that a wood base MAY
    be ok and not cause problems immediately or even for a number of
    years or even never.  He insisted on doing it 'right' because his
    reputation is his livelyhood.
    
    FWIW
    
    	-Barry-
    

RE: .4

>    The professional who put in a ceramic tile floor in a bath for me,
>    and gave an estimate for the kitchen, said that he would never put
>    tile over anything but a concrete base.  Ceramic tile is too brittle
>    to be put over any kind of wood - even a luan - surface.

Does he mean that he won't put ceramic tiles on anything but your
basement slab? :-)  Somehow if you want tiles in most kitchens, you are
going to have to work with wood at some point... Perhaps he means that
he uses thinset--a concrete "mastic," which is what our tile store
suggested we use in our recently completed tile job.   

Alex

    thanks for the clarification -
    
    this was a second floor bath and it was a thin (about 1/2 inch)
    layer of thinset.
    
    	-Barry-
    

    I recently installed ceramic tile on a counter top. I didn't do
    a good job in removing all of the grout from the tiles. I have
    some dried grout on the surface of the tile and I would like to
    know the best way to remove it. The tile surface is not smooth.

    If it's a Portland cement-based grout, use a piece of wood or plastic 
    (ONLY!) to scape and chip off the larger remnants.  Then use muriatic
    acid to dissolve what's left.  The acid will not harm the tile.
    And it is not very good at removing large masses of grout, it's
    best for those smears that are never quite completely wiped up.
    
    It is _acid_ and you should be careful with it, but it's not all
    that strong.  Compared to battery acid, for instance.
    
    The acid is available at hardware stores (paint/solvent section).
    
    If the grout is latex-based, I don't have personal experience, but
    water should take it off.
                             

    I used a razor blade (very carefully) and had great results but
    the grout had only set for a few days (cement based).

    
.1>                    -< Use muriatic acid >-
...
.1> It is _acid_ and you should be careful with it, but it's not all
.1> that strong.  Compared to battery acid, for instance.
    
    WRONG!  Muriatic acid is HCL (read Hydrochloric!!!).  The
    solution you bought may have been quite dilute, but hydrochloric
    is an *extremely* strong acid.  Be very careful with it!

Scrub lightly with a moistened Scotchbrite scouring pad. It's tough
enough to get the excess grout off but not enough to damage the tile surface.

    RE .3 (Muriatic acid is HCL):
    
    Yes, I know.  Calm down.  I was talking about the _product_ known
    as muriatic acid, which, as sold in your paint-supply section, is
    "not very strong".  "Dilute", if you prefer.
    
    I was not comparing hydrochloric and sulphuric in the same
    concentrations.  The sulphuric acid in the concentration commonly
    found in batteries is much stronger/corrosive than the hydrochloric
    acid in the concentration commonly found in the consumer product
    "muriatic acid".  That's the long-winded version.

    We had the same problem removing excess grout from the floor
    of our bathroom.  A friend had had that problem and got so
    desperate he got out his belt sander and attacked it,
    and succeeded without scratching the surface of the tile.
    I wasn't quite as desperate (or daring) and found that sanding
    with fine grain sandpaper worked quite well.  Note that if
    the glaze on the tile is not really hard you could scratch
    the surface.
    
    
    

    I used Tile and Grout Cleaner that I bought in Color Tile. It did
    miracles on my bathroom tiles. You might want to give it a try.

    I don't agree with -2 assumptions.   My bath floor tile is set on
    4 inch concrete slab set on recessed floor joists.  The house has
    a 4 ft crawl space under the entire house.  In the bath, the floor
    joists are 4 inches lower than the rest of the house.  Then a 4 inch
    concrete slab was poured over which they tiled.  In my case the
    foundation settled and the slab cracked causing the tile to crack.
    
    Talk about a mess to correct.  The entire concrete slab would have
    to broken up and taken out of the house.  A new sub floor or slab
    would have to be installed and then tile or other covering.  If
    they had used rebar then maybe the slab would not have cracked.
    

I could have sworn there was a more recent note on this but I couldn't find it
(1684 didn't really get into it enough).

I tend to agree one needs a very rigid base for tile.  I'm about to tile a
couple of bathrooms that are currently covered with linoleum.  My problem is
that I have a 3/4" plywood sub-floor and on top of that another layer of 1/2"
plywood.  I really don't want to go with luan over what I've got or it'll raise
the floor too much and I hate to lose the 1/2" of plywood.

My thoughts are to get off the linoleum and try to use some of that adhesive
remover mentioned earlier.  This way I'll retain the solid base.

thoughts?

-mark

    
    Rep .16
    
      I did the same thing you are talking about in my dining room.
    I removed the linoleum and then got off as much of the adhesive
    as I could. I then filled all the gaps in the finish subfloor
    with a product from Color Tile <can't remember the name> and then
    laid the tile. So far <five years> no problems with the grouting
    coming out or cracks anywhere. I would think you should be ok.
    
    -mike
     

>couple of bathrooms that are currently covered with linoleum.  My problem is
>that I have a 3/4" plywood sub-floor and on top of that another layer of 1/2"

>My thoughts are to get off the linoleum and try to use some of that adhesive
>remover mentioned earlier.  This way I'll retain the solid base.

Are you sure you're not making extra work for yourself?  I tiled a luandry 
room right over a vinyl floor.  After chiseling for about 10 minutes and 
getting nowhere I figured that vinyl was down there good enough.  Sure 
enough, I never had problem.  

Rigidity and tiling is mainly concerned with stiffness, not hardness of the 
material immediatly below.  3/4 + 1/2 sounds pretty stiff to me.

Craig

wasn't there some discussion about using dry ice to remove linoleum a couple of
months back?

-mark

    
     Rep .19  <Dry Ice and Linoleum removal>
    
      Yes there was and the person said it didn't work. The way 
     I removed my linoleum for the tile job was a dry iron set
     to warm. I just used the iron to heat up a small area and then
     a stiff blade putty knife to scrape it off. I worked great and
     with two people it went pretty quick. One ironed and one scraped.
                                            
    
     -mike
    

    I am in the process of tiling my Kitchen floor and was wondering as to
    the "best" method for smoothing odd tiles cut with the "nippers"?
    
    Thanks,
    Martin

    
    I turned my belt sander upside-down and used a course belt.  Use
    gloves, the tiles heat up.  You don't have to smooth them too much
    anyways, the grout hides a lot of it.
    

    
     I use an old brick. They are cheap, last forever and remove any
    burrs very quickly.
    
    
     -mike
     

    I used my  cellar cement floor
    

    I just finished tiling a bathroom and I rented a table-top wet saw from
    Warren Rental in Acton, MA.  The saw was brand new and I was the first
    one to rent it from them.  Let me tell you it was well worth it.  All
    the cutting was very simple and the edges very smooth. 

    The wet saw probably cut at least four hours off of the job.  If
    I had to make all of the cuts on a traditional cutter, I'd probably
    still be at it.  The wet saw allows  you to make bevel cuts, which
    would have been impossible if cutting the tiles by hand.
    
    The cost of the rental was around $60 for the weekend.  Which was
    worth it in time saved.  Also you don't waste tile by having them
    break in the wrong place.
    
    

For the obvious dumb question, why bother with nippers at all?  I bought a
tile cutter at Spags and use that for almost everything.  For the one or two
tiles that don't have a straight cut, I use an ordinary hack saw.  I wouldn't
want to cut too many tiles with it (slowww...), but for one or two it's fine.

Why aren't people using tile cutters?

-mark

>    Why aren't people using tile cutters?

    People ARE using tile cutters.
    
    Tile cutters are for straight cuts that go all the way across the
    tile.
    Nippers are for curved cuts, cuts that don't go all the way across
    a tile, and cuts that are too close to the edge of a tile to cut
    with a tile cutter.  
    You can do it with a hack saw.  It's just easier with the nippers.
    

    You can use one of those round, diamond coated hacksaw blades for
    easier cuts. Nippers are ok, but they get a little tiresome and hard on
    the hand if you have a lot to do. 

re: .-1

I guess my earlier point was if you have a lot to do, why are you using nippers?
I just did two bathrooms (that makes for three doorways (one had a closet) and
then tehre were vanities to go around.  Out of around 75 sq ft of tile, I didn't
have to make 8 or so non-stright cuts.

There were some tiles I had to cut as narrow as 3/4"!  I didn't think I'd be 
able to do it on a tile cutter without it breaking, but after scoring I clamped
it in a vise between 2 pieces of wood and gave it a firm rap.  Broke nice and
cleanly...

-mark

    Has anyone used Thompson's water sealer on the grout of a tile
    floor?  We put this on the grout to seal the grout on a new tile
    floor.  There is some sealer on the tiles too which is taking a
    long tome to dry and is tacky when you walk on the floor.  It has
    been 3 days of good drying weather with the windows open during
    part of the day and it is still tacky.  I am worried that it is
    not going to dry.  Does anyone know how long it should take to
    dry or how to get the sealer off the tiles without damaging them?
    Any advise is greatly appreciated!
    
    I would like to use this floor someday soon!!!!!!!!
    Sharon

    The can of Thompson's should list a product which can be used to thin
    the water sealer.  You could buy some of the thinner and wipe off the
    water sealer on the tiles.  This wont help it to dry quicker, just
    remove the problem.
    
    You did not mention if the tile is a glazed (non-porous) or baked tile
    (porous).  The glazed tile would not absorb the water sealer and so the
    water sealer would sit on top of the tile like paint.  The baked tile
    would be porous and so would absorb the water sealer like a stain.
    Could this be the root of your problem? 

    The tile is glazed.  It does seem to be drying slowly.
    

    Hi,
    
    	I was wandering through Sears this weekend and I happened 
    upon aerosol cans of "Epoxy Appliance Enamel" made by Rustoleum.
    The description on the can read that this was not high-heat, but 
    would give you a very tough finish for appliances, as well as 
    wood, metal, and plaster, equal to an original appliance coating.
    
    	My question is, does anyone out there think this stuff would 
    stick very well to ceramic tile? (with the surface scrupulously cleaned 
    and roughed, of course!) given that it advertises it's affinity for 
    plasters?
    
    
    	..or, anyone have any color ideas to complement Aqua-blue tile?..
    BLECH!
    
    - Jim -
    

    <snicker>   THE *only* way to get rid of Aqua-blue tile is to
    

    

    		RIP IT OFF THE WALLS!!!!

    						or....

    

    		I should have saved my stove and sink for you!  

    

    	Seriously, I ripped mine (backsplash) down and installed the
    	DACOR brick.  NOW, of course, the brick is gone....ripped out
    	with the rest of the whole kitchen and I have a brandie new
    	plaster board painted Swedish Snow with Almond fixtures (stove,
    	fridge, and cabinets) and a BLACK octagonal sink and countertop!  


    	Have fun painting....and see what it looks like to you before 
    	investing in anything else....you have nothing to lose but a 
    	minor few dollars and a lot of time!

    	justme....jacqui

    I'm getting ready to put down some 1/2" quarry tiles over a floor
    that previously had plastic stick-on tile.  There is two layers
    of plywood and I have cement and latex additive to stick the tiles
    with.  My question is:  Can I put the new cement over the old mastic
    or should I remove or cover the old stickum?
    
    Mark

I just got done replacing broken tiles over a loose subfloor (in a new house) 
and would recommend putting down a layer of luan plywood over the old floor with
(drumroll) drywall screws to hold it all together. I've found that if it isn't
rock solid, if it moves, they crack.

Jim who_put_it_over_a_contractor's_floor

P.S. I had to screw down the subfloor where it had cracked along the seams. ;^{

    I've torn up my old kitchen floor, (carpeting, two layers of lineoleum,
    a layer of masonite, and the original tile, whew!).  What I had left
    was 6"x3/4" t&g, with a layer of 3/8" plywood underlay over it.  I'm
    putting another layer of 3/8" exterior grade plywood for additional
    firmness and a new surface, but for budgetary reasons (ain't it
    always so!), I won't be able to put down the final floor covering
    till sometime in the future (1-4 months).  Should I seal the plywood
    with something?  We are leaning toward ceramic or parquet tile so
    adhesion to a dirty floor is a concern.

    Why put down the underlayment now??  Wait until you are ready to
    finish the floor and then put down your underlayment.  Then it will
    stay clean and be ready for your new floor treatement.
    

   RE .1 > I've been putting in appliances and cabinets, not to mention
   the fact that my wife was not too happy with the dirty black (from old
   adhesive) plywood floor that is there now.
    
    Dan

    I had a similar problem some years ago.  After putting down the
    underlayment I painted it with something white called, I believe,
    stain sealer.  It's advertised as a base for paint, and keeps
    greasy stuff underneath it from causing problems.
    
    At any rate, we left it like that for a few months while I built
    and installed new kitchen cabinets.  It didn't look too bad, and
    held up pretty well.  We were also careful to wipe up spills
    etc ASAP.  I finally put ceramic tile over it and experienced
    no problems; that was about 8 years ago.
    
    Incidentally, to make sure we had a firm base, I drywallscrewed
    the underlayment about every six inches into the floor joists.

    I have a similar problem with my floor.  I have installed my cabinets
    and dishwasner and counter.  The plastic tile has been removed
    revealing rock hard mastic that is not consistant across the floor.
    I am planning to rent a sander to take it down to the wood before
    I put down my Quarry tiles.  I don't know if paint would stick to
    this mastic or if the sanded plywood surface would supply the best
    adhesion for the cement/latex.  Does anybody have any opinions on
    this?
    
    Mark

    Hi,  It's me again.  I went ahead and used a floor sander on the
    old mastic.  It took about 5 pieces of course sandpaper as the mastic
    gunked up the paper.  It was worth the effort.  I ended up with
    a like new surface and after using 10 lbs of 1.5" sheetrock screws
    had a good surface for my quarry tiles.  To tell you the truth,
    I think the latex/cement would stick to about anything.  Especially
    your skin.
    
    Mark

    I also just finished putting down tile and have not put in my
    thresholds yet.  I was planning to use oak and dato out a space
    so the wood will overlap the tile and carpet but still support the
    weight of traffic.
    
    			-----------------------
                       /                       \
                       ---                   ---
           tile ------->  |                 |  <-----carpet
                           -----------------
    I'm sure something like this could be adjusted for differences between
    tile and carpet heights.
    
    Mark

    Re: Painted tile
    
    There is such a thing as Epoxy paint that can do a nice job on tile.
    A friend used this paint to create a border around the top and a
    design on the long wall of a tub enclosure and it looked great.
    
    On the other hand the previous owner of my house painted the white
    tile grey. Fortunately he used regular paint which will scrape off.
    The bath is next years project, after I get the bedrooms finished.
    
    Marie
    

    I'm renovating my kitchen, and the walls are partially tiled.
    After taking the cabinets down, I'm planning on putting sheetrock
    over the tiles, painting, and then putting up the new cabinets,
    new tiles. Is there any reason I should remove the old tiles?
    
    Thanks in advance, 
    Dave
    

    Well, a couple of reasons come to mind:
    
    1.  Won't you end up with a wall that isn't flat?  I assume the tiles
    have some thickness, or are the tiles flush with the existing wall
    surface?
    
    2.  Can you drive screws through this tile to hold the sheetrock?  What
    kind of tile do you have?
    
    Bob

    Well the first thought is that the next owner of the house will
    probably put a reply in the "Why did they ever do that!!!" note. ;^)
    
    Tile requires a very rigid, perfectly flat surface in order to last any
    length of time.  If the under surface has any flex, the tiles and grout
    will crack over time.  If the sheetrock goes over the tile and beyond
    to non-tiled surfaces, you will have to shim the sheetrock or have a
    lumpy wall.  Neither is considered good building practice as a
    foundation for tile.
    
    As long as your are going to remove all the cabinets and put up new
    sheetrock, why not just remove the offending tile all the way back to
    the studs?  You now have a good surface for your sheetrock.  Or since
    you are tiling, you can put in wonderboard or green board.  It gives
    you access to the wall cavity so you can change any utilites or
    insulate.  You also dont lose that 1 inch of space from the second
    layer of sheetrock and tile.

    Thanks for the help.
    
    Someone had suggested putting sheetrock over the old tile - it sounded
    like a potentially dangerous short cut, and I appreciate the input.
    
    (the tile will come down)
    
    -Dave
    

    I want to tile part of the wall in my bathroom that has been painted.
    Do I have to strip the paint off, or can I just sand a little bit
    before getting started?
    
    Ron
    

Hi,

I know there are alot of notes on the subject of ceramic tile, repair of, 
replacement of, new installation and so n. But, I haven't seen anything on 
painting tile. I've seen several advertisments for companies that do  
refinishing of tubs, sinks, commodes and tiles.  They claim the finish is 
as hard and as durable as the original, and is guaranteed for (i forget 
now) either 2 or 5 years and comes in just about any color you could want.
I have seen samples of the finished product at home improvment shows and it 
looks good, but...

Does anyone know about this process?  Is it any good?  I figure they must 
use an epoxy paint, but how is it applied?  What do they do to prepair the 
tile surface for maximum adhesion?  Do they use an acid to etch the tile or 
do they sand them?  Enquring minds want to know!:-)

Thanks for any help on these questions.

Mark



Moderator: If this is already under discussion, please move this note to the 
proper place.  Thank You.

Hi again,

Well to my suprise nobody has yet offer an opinion on how to prepair tile 
surface before painting. With all the notes on tiles and painting i would 
think someone knows how to do it. So I'll ask again; What would be the best 
method for prepairing a tile surface for painting?

Thanks Again

Mark

    
    
    Well, I'm no expert but I have at least done this once...  and I asked
    around at the local hardware and paint stores for advice.  What I 
    ended up doing was lightly sanding the tile and then applying a coat
    of a special 'paint' made just for this purpose.  The applied the paint
    of my choice.  I turned out just fine and with the exception of 
    behind the stove - where we didn't sand... there has been no problems
    with chipping or peeling for 6 years.  
    
    Unfortunaly I don't remember the name of the special paint, and if
    doing it over I would have used a semi-gloss, not a flat finish for the
    final coat... but that's another story...
    
    Allison

    I just picked up Muriatic acid to try it on my white polyblend "sanded"
    grout. The grout has been dry 2-3 weeks. I will let you know  how it
    works for me. By the way, The acid I picked up at Dale Hardware in
    Fremont Calif lists the contants as "32% HCL". I read this to mean
    about a one parts acid to two parts water strength. That seems pretty
    strong to me since I know what 100% concentartion does (from my old
    college days...)!
    
    I will see how it works and follow up here
    
    Mark

    That 32% figure doesn't imply anything about the concentration of
    the HCl solution which went into the muriatic acid.  It could start
    with a fairly weak solution of HCl.  There should be some indication
    of the molarity of the muriatic acid solution on the container,
    which would be a better indicator of the "real" strength.

    32% HCl is full strength acid - the water won't hold any more HCl in
    solution, and in an open container will fairly quickly fume off to
    around 20% (2 to 3 hours).
    
    For a first pass on grout, dilute one part of the 32% acid with 49
    parts of water (you want what is called a 2% solution) - if that doesn't
    work, or works too slowly try a 5% solution, which is the strength
    normally recommended to clean brickwork - most professional
    brickcleaners use a 10% solution (works faster) but this requires
    neutralisation afterwards. In any case, flush well with clean water
    when finished.
    
    regards,
    Michael Watts.

    
    I think this problem is unique enough for a new note.  Mr. Moderator,
    please feel free to move if you disagree.
    
    I have a problem that doesn't seem to be referenced in any tile notes.
    
    We are renovating our Kitchen.  New floor, new counter-top, painting
    cabinets, and a new tile backsplash.  I ripped down the old tile, cut
    out the old drywall and put up new green board.  No problem to that
    point.  
    
    The new counter got delivered and we put that in yesterday.  Fits
    pretty good, with one exception.  The gap between the side wall and the 
    counter top varies from 1/4" to almost 3/4".  The 1/4" is fine, because
    the glue/tile will cover it and make the tile flush with the top of
    the counter.  The problem is what to do with the larger gap?  
    
    The gap is not sudden.  It seems to be related to an unsquare wall.
    What I need is some help figuring out how to close the gap in a way
    that will leave all the tile backsplash flush to the counter-top.
    
    So far people have thrown out everything from another layer of 
    drywall (doesn't seem to help the gradual nature of the gap), to simply
    layering joint compound on the greenboard until it fills the gap.
    
    Can anyone offer any ideas on how to do this?  I will also add that
    I am a novice at this stuff.  I'm willing to try anything, but I'm
    no genius when it comes to home improvement.
    
    Any help would be greatly appreciated!!
    
    Ken
                                                               

        The best fix would have been to put furring strips up to square
        off the wall BEFORE you hung the greenboard :-(

    Even the best of walls aren't perfectly square and plane, so it
    is frequently necessary to scribe a line on the countertop which
    follows the curvature of the wall, and then trim the excess so a
    close fit is obtained.  With a narrow gap often simply holding a
    pencil flat on the wall so it marks the top of the countertop
    (or backsplash when one is used) is sufficient; larger gaps may
    require use of a cheapie compass (or dividers).
    
    The problem in .0 is that trimming the edge next to the wall may
    result in the opposite end being too short to overhang the top of
    the associated cabinet.  CHECK BEFORE CUTTING!
    
    .1 had it right; do the prep work BEFORE putting up sheetrock if
    the walls appear that far out of plane.

I'm in this same predicament so I'll jump in here too...

re: -1

>    .1 had it right; do the prep work BEFORE putting up sheetrock if
>    the walls appear that far out of plane.

Good advice but not always possible or reasonable.

If I read the base note right, the corner of the room is not 90 degrees.
Shimming out an entire wall or major subsection of one just to fix the
described problem is, well, a major waste of time.

The solution to the problem is probably to cut a wood shim that fits between
the counter top and the wall. Attach the back splash tile and use the grout
to make up the difference between the counter and the bottom of the splash.

It depends on what color every thing is but I think this would work. Is the
counter top tile?

Another method, if you have enough counter top material to work with, is
to "dig out" a portion of the sheet rock at the the back corner. The counter
top slides into the hole in the wall at the rear - thus bringing the front
closer to the wall. Like it or not, this method is frequently used and works
so well most people can't detect it even if they look for it.

One point - don't use mud to fill the gap. The cabs and the wall will move
relitive to each other over time and crack the mud.


Mickey.

    
    Re -1
    
    The counter is white and the tile will be a pale blue.
    
    If I understand your suggestion, I should attach a shim to the entire
    wall to get it closer to the counter and then tile directly over the
    shim?  Or should I cover the wood with joint compound or some such
    material prior to the tile?
    
    Thanks in advance for the help!!!
    
    Ken
    

    
    I would consider any scheme that fills the wall out to square using
    *plaster* -- but NOT *joint compound*.
    
    Joint compound, when introduced to even the smallest amount of
    moisture, turns back into what people usually call it -- mud. Not a
    good base for a tile job.

    I cannot find this subject addressed anywhere else. Moderator,
    please move it if another topic applies.
    
    I want to resurface my kitchen countertops. What I would like to do 
    is cover the FORMICA with CERAMIC TILES.
    
    Is this possible? I would also like to do the same with the backsplash.
    
    Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated.
    
    Mark
    
    

re >                     <<< Note 4530.0 by LJOHUB::M_GAGNON >>>
>                       -< CERAMIC TILE OVER FORMICA???? >-

    Just score (gouge) the formica in a crosshatch pattern to allow the
    mortar to stick to something.
    
    Most places that sell the tiles will also stock the oak trim to put
    around the edges.
    
    from my wife: Do yourself a BIG favor, don't do it.  The grout WILL
    stain from all kinds of food stuff, no matter how much of the
    anti-stain snake oils you buy. Of course, if you are using a colored
    grout that is darker than coffee grounds you won't care.
    
    If you are not to be swayed by this advice, purchase bleach and save
    your old toothbrushes.
    
    The installation is easy, fun, looks good and is rewarding; but the
    maintenence is a chore.
    
    Dave

    You don't need to use toothbrushes. Just buy Soft Scrub with bleach,
    pour it on the counter and then use a sponge to move the Soft Scrub so
    that it covers the entire counter. Wait about 5 minutes or so and then 
    clean up. You will need to use a little bit of elbow grease to get all
    the stains out. I have off-white grout (the worst!) that had not been
    bleached for over a year. I just bleached it (using Soft Scrub) - what 
    a difference!
    		Cindy
    

I am installing some task lighting over our sink in the kitchen.  I want to 
put the switch for the lights beside an existing outlet in the wall 
underneath the cabinet.  (Running power to the switch is also a problem; but 
thats for another note).  Problem is that there is an existing ceramic 
backsplash and my wife will kill me if I crack the whole tile.  What's the 
best way to cut the tile in order to accomodate a double outlet box.

Any help will be appreciated,

Tom

    re: .26
    If you get a carbide burr from your dentist (or wherever you can get
    one) and put it in a Dremel tool and go at the tile slowly and
    carefully, you can (eventually) cut any shape you want in a tile.
    Once you get through the glaze it's easier.  It takes patience,
    but it's not all that difficult.

I cut through ceramic tile in my shower to put in a larger soap tray.  I
used the cutting disk that came with my Dremel tool.  Have lots of cutting
disks on hand (they wear quickly) and get a breath of fresh air
periodically.  Total time was about 20 minutes for about 6" of cut.  Hold
the tool firmly or it will try to skip out of the groove and gouge
neighboring tile.

re: 34.26

>I am installing some task lighting over our sink in the kitchen.  I want to 
>put the switch for the lights beside an existing outlet in the wall 
>underneath the cabinet. ...  Problem is that there is an existing ceramic 
>backsplash and my wife will kill me if I crack the whole tile.  What's the 
>best way to cut the tile in order to accomodate a double outlet box.

      Maybe the best thing is NOT to cut the tile.
      
      Do you need a duplex outlet? (two sockets) Or can you do with only
      one outlet at this location? If you can do with one outlet you can
      buy  a  wiring  device  which has 1 outlet and 1 switch, and which
      will fit in the same space as a duplex outlet.  i.e. in  a  single
      box  --  a  standard  duplex  outlet  plate  covers it.  These are
      available at most hardware  stores,  at  least  the  larger/better
      ones.
      
      If you can afford to loose one outlet this will be a LOT easier.

    I'm about to tile a tub enclosure.  The walls of the tub area are
    Wonderboard, the rest of teh bath walls are greenboard.  Ok, here are
    my questions.  My only previous experience with tiling is on floors
    using mastic.  Is there any difference between applying mastic and
    applying thin set mortar on cementboard which I'll use in the tub area? 
    By difference I mean technique-wise.
    
    	Second, the greenboard is thicker than the Wondeboard by maybe
    1/8" so where they meet there is a ridge.  The tile will stop right at
    the edge of the Wonderboard.  Are there tried and true ways to handle 
    this ridge or do I just improvise.  I'll be going to the tile store
    tonight to see what I can do with edge tiles but thought I'd also tap
    the vast resources here.  
    
    Thanks,
    
    George

    Well, in view of the overwhelming response to the last question I 
    guess I'll ask another.
    
    	What's the recommended procedure for going around an inside corner
    with a tile that has a repaeating pattern?  For example I am starting in 
    the center of the wall with a band of tiles that has a geometric pattern.  
    When I reach the corner do I stop there and start a new pattern on the
    adjoining wall or do I cut the tiles and wrap the pattern around the 
    corner?
    
    George

    What the heck - I've never done any tiling, but I'll give you an answer
    anyway.  
    
    I think it depends mostly on what "looks right".  Also on your ambition
    level (do you want to cut all the tiles to "wrap" the pattern?) and
    perhaps on how vertical/square the corner is, which will affect the
    appearance of the pattern as it goes around the corner or stops/starts
    at the corner.
    
    In other words, I'm not sure there is a "right" way to do it - do
    whatever you like best, I'd say it's purely a question of aesthetics.

OK ,here is how I put ceramic tiles on a wall.

First, pick out the tiles you want.  Then tell the dealer the kind of surface you
are putting them on and he will provide the appropriate goo, a trowel with the 
correct sized notches, and the appropriate grout (get it in a tan color to
extend time between serious cleaning). Make sure you get a ton of those little
plastic spacers to assure uniform tile spacing.  Also get a hard rubber trowel
(or whatever its called) for grouting.  The dealer can loan you a tile cutting
machine.  Also, if you have pipes to go around, get a "nibbler" and a glass 
cutter.  Make sure the bloody things are sharp.

Then, decide how high up the wall you want to go and run a level line all around 
the room. Start at the point that you will readily see. It will be IMPOSSIBLE to 
have the job be completely level all around and you might as well have the most 
level section be what you first see.  

Most people get real smart and measure up from the floor in even 
tile-height-increments so that they do not have to trim off. That works only for
the wall where you first measure.  Murphy rules that floors are uneven after
turning a corner; that's what molding is intended to cover up. Note, if you are 
tiling from floor to ceiling, run your level line at EYE LEVEL.

Put your first course at the level line - even if you are tiling floor to 
ceiling.  I generally put the first course in and let it set making sure to 
adjust any individual tiles that slip out of level.  If the first course is not
perfect, everything else will look lousy. Tile from the level line down, even if 
you are going floor-to-ceiling.  Let everything set for a day (I am, perhaps,
overly cautious) and then remove the spacers and apply the grout using the hard 
rubber trowel.  Clean up DAMP grout from the surface of the tiles with a wet rag
(not a aponge) being careful not to dig up the grout from the spaces between the 
tiles.

Or, you could go to a local bookstore and pick up a general how-to book.  I use 
the Readers' Digest (big yellow book).

Luck,

Dave

re: 34.33                    Ceramic Tile on walls                     33 of 33

>I use  the Readers' Digest (big yellow book).

I don't have the "big yellow book", but I do have a complete set of 
Readers' Digest's spanning the last 15 years. Which months was it in ?

Funny .. I've never seen the DIY sections .. only "Life in the United
States and Humour in Uniform" ...

/Bob


:^)  :^)  :^)  :^)  :^)  

... sure .....

Perhaps you were not tongue-in-cheek, so.....

Readers' Digest is a LARGE publishing house.  The monthly digests are only a part
of their empire.  They sell books, recordings, etc.  One of their offerings is
a homeowners guide to repairs.  It is a GREAT DIY guide covering tools, materials,
techniques, etc.  It is available from Readers' Digest and I have seen it on the
shelves in some bookstores.  It is a BIG, yellow book.

Dave

    Hopefully someone has painted over their tile in last 21 months!
    
    In renovating my bathroom, I would prefer to paint over the
    black-and-grey ceramic tile rather than replace it with new tile.
    Cost and convenience seem to be the major pluses in going this route.
    
    Has anyone done this themselves?  How about hiring an outsider?
    I heard positive remarks for a company named Bath Genie in the Central
    Mass. area but want to hear other people's experiences.
    
    - George

Zinnser's 1-2-3 brand primer claims it will stick to tile without sanding.  You
may want to give it a try.  I have been very pleased with all the uses I've
found for 1-2-3 so far.

				Steve

    
    I am looking into redoing my mom's bathroom, and am trying to 
    figure out a way to keep the current tile AND have it look
    nice!  she has a grey wall tile all around the bathroom with
    a *maroon* border all around.  She has a white tub and sink,
    so I'd really like to get rid of the maroon border.  If I
    can't get rid of it, then I'd rather rip out ALL of the tile
    rather than have to decorate around it.  
    I thought about recoloring the maroon, and called a refinisher.
    He quoted approximately $200 to recolor just the border (I guess
    there would be a lot of masking off of the other tile, so it's
    time consuming.  
    
    1) has anyone done this themselves recently, and does it look
    	like regular tile afterwards or does it look like painted
    	tile (i'm thinking of painting it white).
    
    2) If it doesn't look all that great, is it possible to remove
    	border tile without wrecking the tile around it?
    
    Thanks!

Like the base noter, I'm renovating my kitchen, which involves removing
existing wall tile and replacing with new tile.  Rather than chip away at the
old stuff, I just removed the entire 16" high piece of wallboard all across the
kitchen where the tile had been glued. Now I've spliced in new wallboard and
have taped the joints and applied a first coat of joint compound.  

I've actually never hung sheetrock before, so could someone advise me on the
proper way to finish a wall that will soon have tile installed on it? E.g., how
tidy do I need to make the seams if they'll be covered with tile? Do I need to
apply a "skim coat" over the entire sheetrock surface prior to installing tile? 
Do I really need one of those extra-big (10-inch) sheetrock trowels to do these
joints right?

Thanks-

Brian

I will be putting down some ceramic tiles in a high traffic area in our home. It 
is currently carpeted. It will be retangular in shape with one side up against a
wall/baseboard, one up against carpet, and two butted up to linoleum. The
problem I see in finishing the edges against the linoleum is the trip edge.
Since the linoleum was place directly on the subfloor by the home builder I will
have the height of the 1/4 luan plywood plus the height of the tile. The lip
will be at least 1/2 inch for people to step up from the linoleum floors to the
tile walkway. Seems to be a prime target for chips.

I am looking for recommendations that will not only look good but will reduce
chiping and people triping.

	I had a similiar situation when I ripped up the carpeting in my
	bathroom, only a single guy would carpet a bathroom, to see if
	the hard wood floor extended under it. Well to my surprize and
	delight it was tiled, and in great condition. The tile was just
	under a 1/2 inch higher than the hard wood floor. I bought a piece
	of marble threshhold from home depot, they cut it to fit, and used
	it to block off the tile. It's less than a half inch rise and creates
	a nice transition fromn wood to tile. Haven't had any problems tripping
	over it or stubbing toes, even my 1 year old daughter walks over it
	without trouble. The marble piece was cheap, less than 5 dollars. 

I had a spot where the tile ended and dropped 3/4" to linoleum.  I got
a piece of 3/4" oak quarter round molding, finished it, and nailed it in
place.  

Garry

    Ditto the oak molding, but if the quarter-round seems abrupt, try
    a piece that looks more like 'casing' (i.e. wider, with a more gradual 
    taper.) We used it to 'feather' a quarry tile floor down to an oak
    parquet floor. Looks good and has lasted 8+ years without having
    tripped anyone yet.
    
    Found ours, prefinished to match the parquet, at Color Tile, but any 
    good lumber supplier should have it.
    
    Good luck.

    Fine steel wool works great on removing excess grout. That's what the
    installer used...
    /bd

    There are scattered notes on this topic but none talk about ceramic tile
    over chip board(moderator, move this if appropriate).  
    
    I recently ripped up the linoleum(sp?) in the kitchen and replaced the
    chipboard in front of the sink and cabinets with 1/2" underlayment.
    
    Under this is 3/4 tongue and groove yellow pine(very old and
    unrestorable).
    
    The rest of the kitchen has perfectly fine chip board and I'd like
    to know if ceramic tile can be placed over this?
                                                         
    Will the thin set damage the chipboard and cause this to delaminate?
    
    Should I seal the chip board with a water sealer and then tile?
    
    Or should I rip this area up as well and install the underlayment?
    (this is a pain cause the chip board is installed with 4" long 
     hardened screws that break upon removal from being in so long).
    
    The last question is how thick can you go with thinset?  
    
    
    Thanks for any input,
    
    Dale

>>                     <<< Note 5035.0 by LEDS::ROBERTSON >>>
>>                       -< ceramic tile over chipboard? >-

No,  you shouldn't put ceramic tile over chipboard.  When I had my house 
built,  they put down 3/4" chip board.  In the area where tile was going,
I requested another 1/2" for support.  They did that but used only
chip board again.  When the tile installer came,  he had them put down
1/4" luan over the chip board as he said the tile mastic either wouldn't
stick or would eat the glue in the chip board.

Garry

Question: Are we discussing "chipboard" as in Aspenite or similar products
as opposed to "particle board"? I know I've had great success installing
ceramic countertops on "particle board", although I don't think I'd even
want to consider "chipboard" as a base for either a counter or a floor
(for tile).

-Jack

    It is chipboard for sure.   I am aware of problem of the chipboard 
    getting wet( even from the mastic) and then delaminating.   The next
    question is there anything that can be applied to the chipboard that 
    will seal it from the moisture and the delaminating problem?
    
    
    Also, on the area of the floor that has the underlayment, what should
    I use to clean it prior to tiling?  It's been down a while and sort
    of grungy.
    
    I'm starting to lean towards ripping up the chipboard and going the 
    underlayment route, but I just wanted to be sure I needed to do it.
    
    
    Thanks,
    
    Dale

    Re: .3
    
    Rip out the chipboard, and do the job right.
    
    Marc H.

Hi,

You'll give yourself grief if you put ceramic tile over chipboard.  We put
a ceramic tile counter over chipboard 5 years ago in a small bathroom and
are regretting it. Any moisture that can manage to get under the tiles (or
under the counter) is, and the base is warping in spots.  As it warps, it
pushes the tiles up and makes the countertop wavy....  It's impossible to
fix.

What a big, big mistake that was.

Diana

    	I know someone is going to say that there are no shortcuts, but if
    the chipboard is in good shape right now, you could lay down a poly
    sheet and nail 1/4" luan over it.
    
    	This would give you a vapor/moisture barrier, minimally raise the
    floor, and be a lot easier (not to mention cheaper) than ripping out the 
    whole floor and replacing it.
    
    	If you're putting sheet vinyl in, that would give you yet another
    vapor/moisture barrier between the finish floor and the chipboard.
    
    	Ray

    If I put the luan over it, it will be 1/4" higher than the area of the
    floor that has the 1/2" underlayment.   I guess I'll rip it out.
    
    But I need to know what to clean the old underlayment with before
    putting down the tile?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Dale

If ou can't cover the 1/4" height increase with a carpet edging or a oak 
threshhold tread, and are really in the mood to rip up the old underlayment, 
just make sure that you have enough thickness in the final floor to provide
enough stiffness to keep the tile from cracking.  I don't think 1/2' by
itself is nearly enough.

As far as what goes directly under the tile - use any A sided material like
A/C plywood or luan, screw it into the underlayment (NOT THE JOISTS) at 
6" intervals, fill the holes and cracks, then sand smooth.  An alternate
is to use cement board (glasscrete is brand name) as the final surface, but
it is expensive and may be overkill for you.

Wayne

    Under the subfloor  is 3/4 tongue and groove souther yellow pine.
    
     Dale

    I went with wafer board on my kitchen floor about 4 ys ago.  I put down
    1/4" over the 2 sheets of 5/8 sub flooring.  I used the milk additive
    in the adhisive and the same in the grout to get a nice flexible and
    waterproof floor.  I think the most important part of doing a new floor
    is the attachment of the subfloor to each other and attaching this to
    the joists with nice long (3.5") screws.  I used a 1.5" screw every
    5" all over the floor to attach the subfloor sheets together.  I
    haven't got any cracks in the grout and we're talking a 23 foot long
    kitchen and hallway and bathroom.                         

    Anyone found a responsible way of disposing of broken ceramic wall
    tile?  I have 2 barrels full and feel bad about sending it to a
    landfill.  Is there any company in the area that might recycle this
    somehow?
    
    Thanks, Mark

I'm confused.  You're objective is to reduce the solid waste going to your
landfill, is that right?  Then look for someone else with a hole to fill.
Its clean stuff right?  This is the sort of junk that ought to do nicely
under somebody's driveway I would think.

    Yes I was looking to recycle.  Its gone to the landfill now.
    
    Mark

    
    
    Can carpeting be installed over ceramic tile?
    
    How is the carpet held in place?
    
    Can a pad be used?
    
    Thanks for any advise,
    BobF

Well, as is always the case, you _can_ do just about anything, regardless
of whether or not it's desirable. If you sense that the ceramic tile might
come loose at some point in the future, you'd probably want to ensure that
it didn't do so underneath your carpet. By removing it first.

-Jack

re: .0  Yes, you can install carpet with pad over ceramic tile, as was the case
	with my bathroom. Why anyone would fully carpet a bathroom is beyond me
	but I was pleased to find ceramic tile under my bathroom carpet. It was
	put down using carpet stays, those strips of wood with the brads stick-
	up through. The only difference in the application seemed to be that
	instead of tacking down the carpet stays, they were glued down. I was
	able to pull up the stays and remove the glue with a solvent. Tile was
	still in great shape.

    
    The other option is to have one of those rugs that you throw down and
    cut to fit. We have old, discolored tile in our bathroom and my wife
    doesn't like to walk on tiles in her bare feet so we got one and it
    doesn't look too bad. The other advantage is that it didn't cost much
    and it can be thrown into the washing machine when it starts to get
    dirty (I would think that would depend on the size of the bathroom though).
    Color selection is limited though and it's a bit hazardous to vacuum
    with an upright vacuum cleaner. Other than that we like ours (at least
    until we decide to remodel the bathroom).
    
    Steve B.
    
     

    I didn't see this topic anyplace so ..
    
    I am looking for advice regarding the removal of Italian Tiles from a
    kitchen floor.  We want to replace them with other tiles but I'm not
    sure that all the glue/adhesive is removable.  Of course once I start,
    I'm committed.
    
    Anyone ever remove them ?  How did you do it ?  Did all the glue come
    off ?  How much time did it take ?  
    
    THANKS
    
    Bob O.
    

>    I didn't see this topic anyplace so ..
>    I am looking for advice regarding the removal of Italian Tiles from a

	    Are Italian tiles different from American tiles?  Do we really
	need to start a new note?  
					Tim

    Is there a product that you can seal ones entire room, instead of doing
    the monotonous
    		"paint each grout line w/ sealer and buff off anything that
    		 gets on the tile immediately."
    
    
    This is a fairly large room (27'x12') so I'd rather not do it line by
    line.  Also, it's very difficult getting the haze off this
    tile(uneven granite-like surface) so I'd rather avoid that too.
    
    thanks
    -John

    I searched this and all notes re: floors for "remove" and a few other
    keywords, but didn't find anything related to the following:
    
    I'm in the process of removing terra cotta tile overlaid on a maple
    floor and am finding it very time consuming (and back breaking). I'm
    trying to keep the maple floor underneath and am using pry bars and
    various other tools to pry up the tile. I'm looking for a tool that
    will make my job easier without detroying the wood floor underneath.
    Is there such a beast?
    
    The tile is overlaid atop a wire mesh "pad" that has been nailed to
    the floor. It is the nails which is making my life difficult; there's
    usually three or four nails per square foot. When I pry, the tile
    breaks up in small pieces and the wire mesh pad pulls away from the
    nails. I end up having to cut away at the mesh with tin snips and 
    remove the tile a small piece at a time. The good part is that I have
    not damaged the floor and will only have to fill the small nail holes
    when I refinish the floor.
    
    Anyone else shared in this experience in the past? Any advice? I'm
    halfway done and it took me all day and night Sunday to get where I
    am now.
    
    Thanks,
    BC

   Sorry if this has already been discussed.

   question: Is cement board worth the extra cost ? (compared to
   1/2 inch plywood)

   My tile contractor says "absolutely!!" as an underlayment for
   expensive ceramic tile. (or even cheap ceramic tile)

   My builder (the GC) says I'm absolutely wasting my money with
   the cement board. He says he'd install it but it's about 100%
   more than the 1/2 plywood.

   Note that there's already the standard 3/4 inch tounge/grove
   plywood for the standard flooring.

   any comments are appreciated!

   thanks, Paul

    
    
    I finished our tile floor 6 months ago. I put down 1/2" plywood
    I believe it was AC ( need to have the plywood that has exterior
    glue used in it ( re-sists water better ). Anyway it should be
    screwed down with drywall screws. I used 1 1/2". I was going through
    1/2 " plywood + lino + luan into the 3/4 T&G. Takes a while with a
    screw gun, nut well worth the effort floor is nice and tight now.
    
      If it's really expensive tile I'd go with the cement board. Home
    Depot recommends it also. My neighbor had a real mud job ( tar paper
    mesh, mud, and then the tile)
    
    

     Also don't let them put the tile on the standard 3/4 T&G. Most
    likly the floor was shot with nails, those can push back up through
    your tile floor and cause cracking. You need something on top of
    it screwed down. If this is a new house you may want to consider
    waiting to put down your tile floor for a few years. The house might
    go through some settling, and the floor could move. I know my floor
    did.

    
    I want to finish one of our bathrooms with tile 1/2 walls and floor.
    The question is which is done first. Should the floof butt up to the 
    wall or should the wall sit on top of the floor.
    
    steve

    My experience has been walls first, floor butts to tile.
    
    JBS

hmmm, I've always gone floors first, then walls - to help cover up any
screw-ups with the cut tiles along the walls.

Tile installation book cites floor first, then wall.  Easier to waterproof
the edge and a cleaner looking expansion joint.  My installer said he's going
to do the floor first.

    
    Going on 3 years we moved into our new/old house. First order we gutted
    the bathroom and remodeled. One of the few jobs we farmed out to a
    professional was TILE. We socked down a new subfloor with drywall
    screws. He tiled. Today I could spit on it. I had cracked grout 1 1/2
    yrs later, 2yrs later the toilet was loose enough to cause a small leak
    luckly I noticed it when it occured, but have a few loose tiles near
    the tank. The Tiles are 12x12. I do have an extra box. So now if I
    wanted to redo this floor, I'd have to rip up my baseboards, which I 
    am sure will make a mess of my new walls. I'd love to rip it all out 
    and re-do it with vinyl.
    How big a project/mess is this to do? It kills me to see all the hard
    work we put into this ourselves..spoiled by this floor. Granted the floor
    isn't that bad, but its there, I see it, I mumble under my breath.
    Any one have an experience on replacing a TILED floor? 
    thanks/Dave 

    Why not rebed the loose tiles and regrout?  If your tiles are 12 x 12
    you have far fewer grout lines to do than mosaics etc.  Might be worth
    a shot and far less expensive/hassle etc.  
    
    Brian

	I'd start by trying to figure out what the problem is.  Cursing
the installer is one thing to do, but not too useful.  
	First, your 12" square tiles are LARGE - this type often calls
for a mortar bed or thin-set bed as a minimum, due to possibility of
rocking tiles cracking the joints.  What did you use?
	Second is the base - how rigid and sturdy is the floor?  What
was there before, how much subfloor did you add, and what's the house
structure itself?  'Give' in any of these areas will cause flex, which
is relatively fatal to tile, especially large tiles.  Use of an additive
to mix the grout (instead of water) can result in a more flexible grout,
which can help - the new epoxy grouts are even better, but a real pain
to mix and install.
	I also can't see how a loosening toilet can be blamed on a tile
job...perhaps the flange bolts were loose, or the flange itself loose.

    re: .227
    
    Dave,
    
    It sounds like there has been some additional settling in the house.
    Tiles that are 12x12 are a bit more sensitive to this.  I have used
    grout mixed with a latex solution rather than just water to combat 
    this type of problem.  The latex provides just enough "give" to
    prevent cracking.  
    
    If the toilet is leaking close to the floor, I'd look at the flange
    hieight rather than the tiles.  If the height is not correct, then
    there may noe be sufficent pressure on the wax donut to provide a good
    seal.  Try getting a thicker seal at a plumbing supply store.  There
    are a number of non-standard heights available.
    
    Also, as a general note:  Never re-use the wax sealant.  Once used, it
    can not be reformed to provide a good seal.  Anyways, they are cheap,
    usually $5 or so.
    
    Dan
    

    I also heard that you should use TWO wax rings to prevent leaking after
    putting tile over an existing floor.

    	Ditto on the double wax seal, and last time I bought one at Home
    Depot (~2 months ago), they were under $1.
    
    	Ray

    
     Yes, I have a supply of waxrings..even used one with and extender
     deal on the end.
     I don't blame the toliet leak on the tile job. He did use latex add.
     to the grout. I think alot had to do with the uneveness of the floor
     and instead of laying a bed and leveling that off and then setting
     tiles was the installation mistake. I had 1 bath, couldn't throw him
     off the job half way thru (my mistake now) and wanted it done. Was
     told over and over..nothing to worry about. You learn from your
     mistakes, and sometimes you do know better than the "professionals".
     He leveled tiles as he went I guess.
    
     thanks for the input/Dave

I put down 13"X13" tiles in my front hall.  Fear of cracks made me double the
floor joists underneath it (also the fact that they had a 14' span).  I was
also a little scared because I only used 3/8" underlayment to keep things lined
up with the adjacent hardwood floors even though the tile store suggested
1-1/4" under the tiles.  Anyhow, it's now as solid as a rock after almost 3
years and I haven't seen any cracks (and hope I never do). 

I'm not sure what all this discussion is over floor levelers, though.  I put my
tiles down with thinset and when one presses down the tiles one gets a very
tight bond.  Perhaps the leveler is needed if you use a mastic which is put on
much thinner.

-mark

    	The leveler is just that. If the floor is uneven in spots, the
    leveler fills in the low spots. There is also a mud job. Not exactly
    sure, but I think it's just morter mixed a little thinner so that it
    flows and levels the floor. It's left to harden then the tiles are 
    bonded to that using thin-set morter.
    
    	If the floor is uneven, the tiles will follow the contour; Especially 
    the 1"x 1" or 2"x 2" tiles in the 1' x 1' sheets. Trying to level these
    as you go (with the thin-set) is difficult at best.
    
    	Ray

	Sounds like we've hit all the possible problems
and solutions!  Since I'll be doing this from scratch myself
soon, we'll see what works...I have planned ahead for some
extra floor thickness, and lowered the appropriate joists
during construction.  There's already 3/4" T&G subfloor down,
and I plan on adding a layer of concrete board, 'taped' and
sealed with thinset.  The large tiles will go over this on 
a bed of thinset, not mastic (which I've used successfully
with small tiles on ply subfloor/luan ply beds - I think the
latex additive is the real key).  I'll grout with epoxy or
grout-with-additive, and see what happens.

	It all makes vinyl pretty attractive, doesn't it?  

    	We just went through this exercise of vinyl vs. tile. Premium
    vinyl can run some serious $$$. My wife picked out an inlay pattern 
    she really liked. It was on sale for $35 a sq. yd. (not including 
    installation). We went with bone 1" x 1" tile that comes in 1' x 1'
    sheets. At $1.79 / sheet, it turns out to be just over $16 sq. yd., not 
    including the thin-set or grout.
    
    	One thing to take into consideration with tile is the amount of time 
    the room will be out of commision. If you're doing a mud job, I'd
    expect this will take at least 24 (if not 48) hours to dry. Then the
    thin-set for the tiles is another day or so before you can grout.
    After you grout, the instructions on the box of grout recommended staying 
    off the floor for 3 days. The grout can't be sealed for at least 10 days, 
    if you planned to do this.
    
    	Ray

    
    Well, if the tile job is done right and if the choice of tile
    is right, ceramic tiles looks great forever with minimal care
    (one can get by with just water unless grease is involved) - 
    so the due is paid up front. Vinyl deteriorates and has to be 
    redone every so often. Besides, if the property is ever going 
    up for sale, ceramic tiles is a one up over vinyl. A tile job
    is messy indeed, but, IMO, it is worth the effort. 
       
    
    Eva

I'm still a little baffled by "mud job" because I guess I still don't know what
this means.  At the very minimal, it sounds like some kind up layer you put down
BEFORE you put down the thinset and I guess I don't see why.  At minimal it's 
going to add extra thickness to what you're doing and that either going to raise
the floor or cause you to reduce the thickness of the subfloor.  Assuming this 
is something you need to do to help level the floor, I'd think it's the
exception rather than the rule.  I've done a number of floors and this topic
never even came up.

As a quick comment about grout - even though it wasn't asked - be SURE you clean
up with a VERY DRY sponge or towel and never let any water get on the grout once
it starts to dry.  In my earlier days I noticed how much quicker it was to
clean the drying grout off the tiles by using a WET sponge and once everything
dried I realized I had  leached all the color out of the grout! Fortunately
there is a paint on the market you can paint the grout with, but at something
like $40 for a small bottle, this was an expensive lesson. 

-mark

    Re: Grout color leaching
    
    	This must be grout specific, because the instructions on the grout
    that I just put in a couple months ago said to keep the grout wet the
    first 3 days after it's installed. I believe they recommended a using a
    spray bottle to do this, which is what I used.
    
    	Also, the color of my grout is the same color all the way through.
    It does get much darker when it's wet, even though it has been sealed 
    with a silcone sealer. The color shown on the outside of the grout box 
    is the color of my grout when it's dry.
    
    	The directions also said to start with a damp sponge or cloth to
    get the big stuff up, and then use a dry cloth or sponge to get the
    haze off after it drys. Worked for me, but then again, perhaps different
    grout manufacturers have slightly different products and recommended
    procedures.
    
    	Ray

    
    Regarding mud jobs being the exception and not the rule.
    
    "Mud jobs" are generally considered these days to be the elite of 
    tiling. You rarely see them done new anymore in anything but the
    highest scale houses (at least in this area). They are more labor
    intensive, much more expensive. Years ago, if you had tile, you 
    had a mud job... it is no longer the case.
    
    A mud job is typically not done post-construction. It is planned for
    and built for. The base layer of a mud job can be 1" or more thick and
    frequently has embedded wire mesh. Mud jobs have nothing to do with 
    floor leveling... they are about creating the absolute most solid, 
    unmoving, non-cracking, waterproof, stable tile job there is. Jump up
    and down on a good mud-job floor in a second floor bathroom, and it 
    feels like you're jumping on a tiled floor in the basement.
    
    								     - Mac

re: mud jobs

thanks mac. the way you described it makes perfect sense and matches what I
thought a mud job is.  I have done a mud job as you described for my shower and
was most puzzled how it could have applied to someone replacing a floor with a
tile one.  the obvious answer is it doesn't!

re: grout

I still stand on what I said about leaching.  it's certainly ok (and required)
to keep the grout moist by spraying but DO NOT get it wet via pools of water
during the initial cleanup phase which I guess I wasn't clear on.  Even though
the grout is a solid color and even if it is damp, a single drop of water
pooled on the grout as it's beginning to dry will suck the color out.  a sponge
that is too wet will also do this. try it if you don't believe me  8-) 

I suspect once the grout has dried for a few hours the color has set enough
that it won't leach out, but it's during that first hour or so that it's the
most fragile... 

-mark

    
    
    >Jump up and down on a good mud job on the second floor bathroom
     feels like ...
    
    	It feels like the house is shaking if you're not the one
    doing the jumping. Not sure if that's better than the tiles 
    cracking ;-)
    
    	We had mud job for all the tiled areas (3 baths, kitchen
    and foyer). We were told by the builder that since the kitchen
    was big (kitchen + foyer accounts for almost 1/2 of the downstairs 
    living space in the main house), he had to put in extra structural 
    support in the basement to support the extra weight of the mud job
    + tiles (more than what building codes spec'ed out). Not sure if 
    this is really necessary, just a heresay. 
    
    
    Eva                     

I am doing some work on my bathroom and the adjacent laundry room.
They measure six foot by eight foot each.
I will be putting down new floor finish, and had a couple of questions I was
hoping might get answered here.

My choice is ceramic tile first, linoleum second.
I am confident the subfloor will be rigid enough for tile, but my questions
are:

1) I assume it is best to remove the toilet, then lay the tile, then reinstal 
the toilet over the tile.  
This will cause a toilet to sewer pipe seal mismatch (vertical sewer exit).
Do I need a spacer, or will a new standard seal (wax ring?) still work?

2) The vanity is currently not instaled, should this go in first, or tile first
and vanity on top?

3) If I put tile in the laundry room, will the washing machine slide around
more when it does it's spin cycle waltz, and will it's leaping around damage
the tiles?

4) How does all this change if I use linoleum?

Paul

    Tile shoudl go under the toilet but not the vanity.  Remove the toilet
    and install the vanity.  If there was tile down before, the closet
    flange should be elevated already to the correct height.  If not, you
    may need to remove the closet flange and reinstall it or a new one.  
    
    If your washer is sliding aroung now, there is a problem with how you
    are loading it.  It should not move around at all beyond a little
    vibration.  This has been my experience at least.  
    
    

    
    Regarding the toilet-over-tile issue:
    
    	Although sometimes you can "get by" with double wax rings, or
        wax rings with extensions... the best approach is to correct
    	the level of the closet flange. Take out the screws securing 
    	flange to the floor and you may find that there is enough play
    	to raise the flange and shim it up (especially if the waste 
    	pipe is pvc). There are special half circle shims for just this
    	purpose.  If you can't raise the closet flange, consider cutting
    	it free and installing a new one.
    
    Regarding the tile under the vanity issue:
    
    	It's really just a matter of opinion and... 
    
    	I'm of the opposite opinion than .245.  Since the floor will
    	likely out last the vanity, tile under the vanity. That way you
    	won't limit your options should you decide to change the size/
    	shape of the vanity or switch to a pedestal sink. 
    	
    
    								-Mac

I'll second .246:  Put the floor under then vanity, it will outlast the floor.

bjm

    
    Our washer and our dryer do dance around a bit on tile, but it
    has been almost 9 years and there is no damage done. Now, I am
    sure I can get the machines to stay put if I want to, but it
    hasn't been a problem. I mean I can put them on top a rubber
    mat or something like that. And no, I don't pay attention to 
    the load (not too interesting), but that certainly can explain
    the locomotion.
    
    
    Eva

    
    I'm doing a repair job on our ceramic tile kitchen floor.  The
    floor is made of 8x8 tiles, and they're installed on a base of 3/4"
    plywood with I believe an additional 1/2" on top of that.  The joists
    are probably 2x10 and span about 12'.  I can't say how the plywood 
    was attached - nails? glue? screws?  There is then a heavy gauge 
    steel mesh layer, followed by latex enhanced mortar and the tile.
    
    When the house was built the floor was installed, and then the framer
    had to adjust a support post in the basement _up_ about a 1/2" right at
    the edge of the floor.  A few months after that, a single line of grout
    cracked approximately under the post, parallel to the direction of the
    floor joists.  I attributed the crack to the post adjustment, and never 
    got a satisfactory repair from the builder. (the new grout to fix the 
    crack cured funny and sort of eroded).  I let it go for three years and
    it didn't get any worse - but I recently got an urge to fix it (she
    can be very charming :^)!!
    
    So I removed the cracked/eroded line of grout (about 4-5ft) and 
    discovered a crack in the mortar under the cracked grout.  I popped 
    up a tile on either side of the crack and found that the crack also 
    corresponded to the place were two sheets of wire mesh met. So it 
    was a weak spot to start with - and I finally had a reason for the 
    cracked grout.  
    
    The two tiles I popped were "spongy".  They moved vertically ever so 
    slightly when stepped on right at the crack. With considerable effort 
    I was able to pop them off the mortar.  The reason for the vertical 
    movement was  the crack in the mortar due to the discontinuity in the 
    wire mesh, and a loss of adhesion betwwen the mortar and the plywood.
    The mortar in this area was only about 3/8" thick - I think it's at
    least 1/2" thick in other areas.  According to the bag - the mortar 
    is supposed to be 'flexible'.  I'm guessing it needs to be because \
    there's probably  no way to make a totally rigid wood floor under 
    the tile.  
    
    I chiseled the mortar out of the wire mesh, stapled the mesh to the
    plywood, and cemented the tiles back down.  All other tiles along
    the fault are solid.  I'll float new grout in with a latex additive, 
    and hopefully be done.  
     
    Now I'm wondering....  It it "normal" for the mortar to 
    loose adhesion with the plywood?  Plywood doesn't seem like an ideal 
    thing for mortar to stick to.  What is a normal thickness for the
    mortar layer?  Does the original installation seem like it was 
    done well?  Think my repair will hold up OK?  I would have liked to
    lift all the tiles along the fault - but it would have taken a week
    of 2 hour/night chiselling - and we have company coming this weekend.
    Any opinions?
    
    Thanks,
    
       Jim D.
    
    PS _ Foley & Sons in Maynard MA were very helpful and have very 
         knowledgable staff who _know_ tile.  Matched my special grout
         color no problem.
    

Is this a mud job (tiles floated in thick layer of mortar) or thin set (thin
layer of mortar spread with a notched trowel - looks like a plowed field)?

It sounds like mud, based on the thickness and the wire mesh.  The
installation seems fairly normal. Everybody has their own way of doing it,
and yours sounds typical. "Flexible" is relative when we're talking about
cement, and it sounds like you pretty much pinpointed the problem. The usual
reason for mortar letting go is water, and it doesn't sound like you had a
problem with that, just a little too much movement at a weak spot that one
time.

It took me 3 mo to find a ceramic tile I loved and that matched my kitchen
perfect, I was so happy when I found it.  The tile place (Foley & Sons) of
Maynard Mass - told me that it would be in in 3 days.  So I paid for it in
full.

Almost 2 weeks went by and I didn't get a call, so I called them.  They
said it was stuck in customs (coming from Italy) and it will be there in
4-6 weeks.  

I was upset that they could not call me and tell me this, but since I just
loved this tile, I decided to wait.  But I did go down and they all about
$100.00 of my money back (why should they collect the interest)

6 weeks come and go, and I still get no call from Foley.  I call them and
they tell me that they just talked to the people and my tile is on the
container and it is in customs right now and I will have it by the end of
the week.

2 weeks come and go and I get no call.  I call them on a Saturday at 11:00am.
They tell me that the container came in on Thursday, and the sales man made
a *special* trip over to their store to tell them that my tile is 
Discontinued!  But they still want my business and they will help me find
a new tile.

At this point I snapped!  I left them have it, and they could not understand
why I was mad.  I told them they better have a check ready for me when I got
down their is 20min - well, they did have my check ready, but they wanted the
sample tile back (I left $5 deposit for it) - I asked them why do you need it
if it is discontinued??  They really didn't have an answer.  I want to keep
it a while longer, so I can try and match it or find it somewhere else.

I don't believe that it is discontinued.  I don't know what their problem is.

I have told some people about Foley and they all tell me this is what they are
like and they don't know how they stay in business.

I took my tile to every tile place you can think of, and no one can match it.
and no one has anything I can live with. :-(

---

so now, I have been floorless for 5 months!  and I don't think I will find
a tile I like - I have a VERY hard kitchen to match. At this point I may
stoop to vinyl- ewu, it's just not my style.  I know allot of people love
vinyl, but I just don't.  

Oh well, I have gotten used to my card board kitchen floor.

Louisa

> At this point I may stoop to vinyl- ewu, it's just not my style.

DON'T DO IT!!
Sorry, it slipped out... I'm with you, can't stand vinyl. It looks like what
it is - a plastic floor. My wife concurs.

Have you considered putting in some fairly bland, match anything color, like
off white? We did that in the kitchen, so we could put in any color scheme we
might want later on.

    
    I might go with a light gray tile, but that will be a last resourt.  An
    off white would be nice, but I have 2 dogs and no mud room attached to
    the kitchen.. off white, you'd notice to much dirt.
    
    It's just so hard to have to change your mind once you have it all set
    and your happy.
    
    lou

  RE: .288

    Have you tried Nashua Tile?  (I think that's the name).  They are on DW
    Highway right about even with the Home Depot near the Pheasent Lane mall.
    They are kind of old fashioned in that they don't take credit cards, have
    limited store hours, and only a barely acceptable return policy.  On the
    other hand, they have some interesting tile, are very helpful and honest.
    They are an independent store, not part of a chain.

    Good luck,

    ---Phil

    
    I've been given a recommendation for Leamar Tile in Marlboro,MA.  I
    haven't been there but the recommendee said they carry upwards of 250+
    tile varieties.  You might try them.  Anyone ever been there?
    
    I believe they are east on Rt20 from 495 towards town on the left hand 
    side.
    
    I'll let you know what I find as I'm headed down in the next two weeks.
    
    We're looking for a black granite with good depth and mica flecks.
    We found some material we like at a store in Milford, NH  but they
    mainly do slab work (although they have bunches of tile samples and
    can get it if I want).  
    
    

re: its on the boat

I got that from the now-gone Tile City on 101A (and several other locations).
They ended up putting together all the stores inventory to make up my order.
Left me with EXACTLY the number I needed - well as long as you don't mind 1/2 
pieces in the closet :-(.  Several months later they shut their doors.

bjm

    
    re tile from italy
    
    Anything sourced from italy is a crapshot at best. Delivery schedules
    mean nothing other than to pacify the consumer. I'm supprised you were 
    not informed of this from the sales person. 
    As for holding the supplier responsible, don't. They want to sell you 
    a product. I'm sure they did their best to get the tile you wanted. 
    One thing to consider in choosing a tile. I'd try to pick something 
    off the shelf. That way should you need more in the future, you have
    a better chance of being able to locate a match. 
    
    A house I recently sold had a nice white Italian sourced tile in the
    entry way, which was installed 10 yrs ago. I had planed to expand the 
    tile to the hall. I looked everywhere in the North East trying to match
    a 9x9 nothing special white tile. Ha, not a chance. It was from Italy.   
    
    

    re: I'm sure they did their best to get the tile you wanted.
    
    	The beef that I saw was that the store selling the tile did nothing
    to keep the customer informed. I'm sure they did their best to get the
    tile too, because it was money in their pocket. Had they, however,
    prepared the customer for the obvious realities, they probably wouldn't
    have lost a customer.
    
    	Ray

    
    Ray, you hit the nail on right on the head.  
    
    Louisa

    Has anyone used K.M.T. (Kevin) out of Northborough for ceramic
    tile installation.  He seems very knowledgeable but any experiences
    would be helpful.
    
    Thanks
    
    Tracy
    
    PNDVUE::JUSSAUME