Conference 7.286::home_work

	- What seems to be a good size?  (We intend to store a

    I'd go at least 12x12...you'll never make it big enough!
		(Murphy will see to that)
        
	- What is the cost ratio between building one yourself
		from scratch or purchasing one?

    	Last year I built a 12x24 building (used to house rabbits) for
    	around $500 total.
    
	- Is the increased quality obtainable in a shed from
		an outfit like WALPOLE WOODWORKERS ($3000 for 10X10)
		necessary or desireable (from a resale point of view)?		

    	Probably not. If your considering spending $3000 for a 10x10
        give ME a call!
    
    	- If you currently have a shed and had to buy another, what
		would you do differently?

    	I've never bought one but I'm sure if I had I would build the
    next one myself.
    
	- Where did you get your shed?

    	Materials were rough cut pine from the saw mill and used corrigated
        roofing from a place that sells used materials.
    
	- Is is important to have a cement foundation as opposed to
		wood on cinder blocks?

    	Wood on cinder block vs wood on concrete is probably the same.
    	Ever considered "pole" construction? It's pretty easy as long
    	as you never want to move the building.


    You can build one yourself pretty cheaply. Remember it's a shed
    not living quarters. It needs to be strong enough to hold what ever
    load will be placed on the roof (such as snow) and to withstand
    what ever the worst weather is that you have. You can go from
    a basic shed that has a door and stores your stuff just fine to
    one that has windows, overhead storage, electricity, water, insulated,
    etc. The cost will depend on all of those factors.
    
    Another thing to consider is having it match your house. Can you
    buy one that has the same siding etc.
    
    /tb/
    
    

    In a recent Building Supply catalog flyer, there was an ad for
    enough material (excluding plumbing/elec/found) for a 2 Bedroom
    house for $6500 (twice the cost of your shed), and I believe
    a garage for $2500.
    
    I would be tempted to think if you want a high resale, then consider
    a garage instead of a shed.
    
    There are many "plans" around in DIY type magazines, libraries
    etc for some very cute sheds, which should also guarantee a property
    improvement (resale value), rather than some slam-bang cheap
    construction. Some towns have codes relating to sheds, too...
    particularly if it'll be near your property boundary.
                  
    Bob
    

    Well, you can get a completely built wooden shed with shingled roof,
    window and door, about 10x10 for less than a $1,000 delivered from
    a place in Hudson, NH on 102(?) just before Benson's.

    Grossmans lumber sells plans for for several (about 40 or so) different
    types of sheds in 3 different quality levels.  The budget ones are
    pretty cheap looking but the better ones seem pretty nice.  I am
    planning on building a shed eventually (there always seems to be
    higher items on the priority list).  I have photocopies of most
    of the plans (freind who worked a grossmans) and will probably use
    their design as a starting point.
    
    I could bring the plans into work at Hudson MA some time if that
    is convenient for anyone.
    
    RE: .1
    
    As far as building a garage instead of a shed.  
    
    The reason that building a shed is so low on my priority list is that I
    really have this great shed with an electric garage door opener.  The
    only problem is my car sleeps outside.  :-)
    
    Jim Pappas

    I built one 16x8 last summer with 2x4's 16 inches apart and a salt
    box shape roof, and t-111 siding.  It cost about $700 for the
    materials.
    I'm not sure about this but I believe if you use a poured concrete
    foundation, the building will be included when they come to assess
    your property, but not if its up on blocks because it is not
    a "permanent" structure.
    

    I built a 10x10 to longago to give you a price, but my next one,
    this one is too small will be attached to my garage and be
    about 22x10.
    
    Its the various other items that fill it up.
    
    You may still have to get a building permit reguardless of the
    permanent or "temporary" way that you secure it to the ground.
    You will also have to follow the set_back laws of the town.
    
    Also you can still be taxed on it. In Mass. there is a tax called
    personal_property_tax that can be levied by the town on nonpermanent
    structures.

    re .3:
    
    Are you referring to Reed's Ferry Small Buildings?  They're on Rt.
    111, about 3/4 mile east of Benson's (really close to the Centronics
    facility).
    
    - John

    Personally, if I were to build a shed I would put it on concrete
    piers made by pouring Sakrete or equivalent into SONOTUBEs.  My
    shed, courtesy of the previous owner sits on blocks and when the
    ground goes through its freeze-thaw cycles the door and windows
    stick.  I don't know what the building code says about small buildings
    but the only thing the building inspector warned me about (at least
    5 times) when building my garage was that the footer be 48 inches
    below grade.  My house is not that deep by anywhere from 1 to 3 feet!

                About 6-8 years ago I was in the same position - looking 
        for and trying to decide on a shed. I look at anyplace I saw 
        sheds for sale, and also tried pricing out the needed lumber for 
        a total DIY project. 
                
                As for the DIY - I found that I could get a pre-fab shed 
        (i.e. one partially put together - 7 pieces, floor, 4 sides and 
        2 roof pieces) for the same price as the raw lumber. And that 
        was delivered to my yard!
                
                The best price I found around for a reasonable shed (I 
        bought an 8x10 [no riding mower]) was about $600 and it was from 
        Barber Bros. Florists in Natick. They actually were selling the 
        sheds for a small outfit in New Hampshire. It was constructed 
        with (if I'm remembering correctly) 2x6 or 2x8 joists on the 
        floor and 2x3 lumber for the wall and roof studs/joists. Walpole 
        was made with premium material (2x4's for the walls for 
        instance!)
                
                I installed it on 8 concrete blocks and finished it off 
        with a skirt made of vertical 1x4 spaced about 2" for 
        ventilation underneath (Didn't want any skunks setting up 
        housekeeping under there!) It's been up now for 6-8 years with 
        no problems to speak of (just one minor one - seal the pine 
        knots so they don't ooze! Ordinary paint is NOT good enough!)
                
                /s/     Bob

    I also think it would be a good measure to provide good ventilation.
    I know garden sheds aren't built like houses, but I rented a place
    with a shed once, and everytime I entered it I was almost knocked
    out by the accumulation of noxious fumes from garden chemicals and
    gasoline. 
    					/Glenn Tremblay
    

    Last year My wife and I were asking ourselves this very same question.
    We wanted a combination shed and woodshed.  We checked prices on a few
    dealers in the area and for what we were looking for, Walpole was far and
    away the most ridiculous price that we had seen.  I find it remarkable
    that they are still in the business.  The best that I had seen was $700
    per shed at Mullen Lumber in Sudbury.

    We ended up deciding on purchasing one and building one.  We bought
    it from a dealer in NH who had installed 2 sheds in my neighborhood
    We went up to see them, and they have many models on display.  It
    took about 2 months to get it, but it was up in a day.  They have
    various combinitions (double door, side door, etc.).  Tell em what
    you want, and they'll build it.

    WARDS SHEDS and WOODWORKING 16 rt 125, KINGSTON, NH. 03848 (603) 642-4500

    It is an excellant 8x8 shed with window, double door, and ramp all
    for about $800 delivered and installed.  They built it on the spot,
    shingled it to match the house, and cleaned up when they left.

    The wood shed has a wood pallet floor, studs at 18" and plywood walls
    on 3 1/2 sides. We covered the walls with cedar shingles and stained to
    match the house (we stained the other as well). It cost $250, and is
    slightly larger (9x9). I had torn down some eyesores that the previous
    owners called sheds, so had some 2x3s, 2x4s and enough plywood for the
    roof. 
    
    Afterwards we had huge mess that cost us about $150 to clean up (just
    finished the last of it 3 weekends ago).   To be fair, only a small
    amount of the trash was from building the shed. The rest was from
    tearing down the existing sheds.

    So, for about $1100, I have a attractive, well finished, 16x8
    shed/woodshed combination. Looking back on it, I wish that I had built
    the first one.  I am very happy with Wards, and could probably not
    match the esthetic quality, but I am *very* proud of _my_ woodshed. 
    
    Its probably a wash whether you build it yourself (and maybe more
    expensive), or buy it and certainly less work if you buy, but then,
    what else will you do with your time :-) 

    Best of luck,

    Phil
    
    P.S. I have included below are some hints for the DIYer.
   
                                    Hints:
                                          
    Rough out the area to fairly level and place your blocks.  To maintain
    level, use a straight 2/4 and a level.  In this way, you can set
    each block by laying the 2x4 across 2 blocks and leveling it.

    Have someone help you construct the frame. If you or they're
    experienced, all the better.  We used 2 rows of 2x4 studs, nailed
    together and sitting on 8 cement blocks.  We used a similar setup for
    the top rim.  I had no problem doing the entire shed myself, once the
    frame was up. 

    Nail some strapping between the corner posts and the base as you
    level it, but don't drive it home.  You will remove this when adding
    your outside wall.

    As soon as you have constructed the rough frame, set some plywood on
    the roof rafters to provide initial strength.

    If you plan to finish the exterior with shingles or the like, use the
    cheapest wall material that you can find.  I used 1/4 plywood, and found
    out later that I could have used a composition board for a lot less.

    If you're an experience roofer fine, but I was not.  The shingle is
    built like this.

     +-----------^----------^--------+
     |                               |
     |         +----------^----------^----------+
     |         |                     |          |
     |     |   |        |            |          |
     +----- ---------|-- ---------|--+          |
               |     |            |             |
               +----- ------------ -------------+

    You will vary your pattern every other row. When placing the second and
    subsequent row, always place the shingle such that it lines up with with
    one of the top row spikes.  This will maintain a straight line.  Its
    all very symetrical after a few rows. 

    Whenever I think of building a shed, it is in terms of building
    a "small house". For me the experience in building a "small house"
    rather than a shed would be worth whatever additional cost.

    
    			very subjective
    			herb

    I didn't read al the responses to .0 as the Network was al little
    slow. So, here's my reply.
    
    I built a 12x12 shed from scratch last summer. It cost me around
    $375 to do it. I used cinder blocks for a base as opposed to pouring
    footings of any kind. So far it made it thru the Jersey winter with
    no problems. I priced wooden sheds before I built one myself and
    came to the conclusion that they were way overpriced.
    
    Moral of this story, BUILD IT YOURSELF!
    
    BTW - so far 12x12 has been big enough. I have a riding mower, push
    mower, garden tools , saw horses, a small refridgerator, and other
    assorted junk in there with plenty of room to spare.
    
    Jim

    I AM CONTEMPLATING MOVING A STORAGE SHED ACROSS MY PROPERTY
    APPROX 100 FEET. THE SHED IS APPROX 8' X 12'. THE REASONS WHY
    INCLUDE:
    
    THE SHED DOES NOT SIT ON A CONCRETE PAD ( WOOD ON GROUND ) AN IS
    BEGINING TO SHOW EARLY SIGNS OF ROT.
    
    I WAN'T TO ERECT A SCREEN PORCH WHERE THE SHED IS LOCATED.
    
    MY PROBLEM IS THAT I'VE NEVER TACKLED A PROJECT LIKE THIS AND WOULD
    APPRECIATE ANY HELP FROM THOSE THAT HAVE. THE SHED IS TOO NICE ( I.E.
    WINDOWS, DUTCH DOORS, SLIDING WOOD "BARN DOOR", ETC.) TO DISASSEMBLE.
    
    ANY COMMENTS AND POTENTIAL APPROACHES, ETC WILL ALSO BE APPRECIATED.
    
    GERRY
    

    I would jack it up and somehow attach 2x6 skids to the bottom.
    (You may not need to do that).  Then use 1 or 2 come-alongs
    to pull it, provided there is a convenient tree to tie them to.
    

    I would also jack it up but instead of attaching skids I would place
    logs or round fence posts under the shed and roll it. You could
    use a come_along, a truck, or a few strong men with ropes. when
    you roll it just keep taking the back log that the shed has rolled
    over and put it up front. You'll probably need at least 3 logs but
    4 or more would be better. If you just use square skids you'll
    probably end up plowing up your yard and getting the shed stuck
    in the ground.
    

    
    	Yep, fence posts will typically be more uniform than just regular
    firewood logs.  Also, don't forget to brace the openings, windows,
    doors, etc., should have at least one board nailed across each of
    them diagonally.  But if its already showing signs of rot at the sill
    it may be too weak to move anyway, just a thought.

    

    After reading the last response I realized I've done that.
    We used just 3 big logs and used levers to force the 
    shed along the logs.  It worked well except that the logs
    had some flat spots.
    

    A few planks on the ground  for the rollers to roll on would probably 
    help.  Skids, if you can get something with a nice gradual curve
    at the front, would probably work too - wet the grass first for
    lubrication.
    In general, take it slow and easy, and if something doesn't seem
    to be going just right, stop and work out the solution before
    continuing.
    Brace the shed as much as possible before attempting the moving.
    
    Steve

    I thought I'd respond to my own note , first to apologize for the
    heavy use of uppercase which I understand is irritating to read,
    and second to get a response on my latest brainstorm.
    
    First, I am in agreement with the responses so far and will probably
    follow them as a guide. However I thought that I'd just jack the
    shed up and get a fork lift to do the rest ! I'd like to investigate
    the costs/feasibility of this approach first since it seems so easy.
    The problem is where can I find, rent, borrow, steal, etc a fork
    lift with long forks in the Nashua N.H. area ? Any ideas or comments?

    At 8'x12' I think you're talking more than a forklift could manage,
    at least, any forklift you're likely to find around here.  You'll
    also need one that can run on grass and uneven ground, and most
    forklifts are designed for on-pavement work.  However, that suggestion
    did give me another idea - hire somebody with a large crane to come,
    lift up the shed, and set it down where you want it.  Look under
    "Crane Service" in the Yellow Pages.
    
    Steve

   
      Some body who has a crane might charge you $650 a day as thats 
    what was quoted to me when I was considering building a house.
      On the other hand if you can run a wood track to where you want the
    shed you might be able to rent wheels to move it.
    
    
    						Rick
     
    

    re .6
    Sounds like you're really committed to the fork lift idea. I have seen
    some very large ones (with full size tires) in Lumber Yards,
    moving whole "stacks" of lumber. 
    
    The question, of course, is there a 'yard' large enought in Nashua
    to have such a beast, and whether or not they'll rent it and operator
    to you.  You might try a 'sign' company for crane.
    
    (-BTW- The biggest fork lift" I've
    ever seen was used to lift 'piggy_back_trailers'.. so they
    do come in large sizes).
    
    

    This discussion is getting absurd! I thought it started out to move
    a small garden shed, not we are talking equipment that could move
    a marble mansion. 
    
    Most people grossly overestimate the weight of big things like
    buildings. As I recall this thing was about 8x12. Id guess,
    if of normal construction it consists of about 15 sheets of plywood
    at maybe 20 lbs each, about 50 2x4's at 3 lbs each, and maybe 1sq
    of shingles at 100lbs. The whole thing cant weigh 700 lbs. One man
    can eaisly pry up either end with a 2x4 and kick an old fence post
    roller under it, and push it across the yard. 
    
    Any crane of fork lift operator would die laughing at being asked
    to move something this small.
               

    I recently had a 8x14 shed put in my yard. The crew that installed
    it said they they would move it if we ever wnted it moved. It looked
    like they had a special set of wheels to put under each corner of
    the shed. I don't know what they would charge for this service.
    I imagine that any place that sells and installs sheds would have
    the capability to move ot for you. These people were located in
    Holden Ma. If you want a name and number, send me mail. I don't
    have the information with me today
    
    Mark Hopewell
    MENTOR::HOPEWELL

    I'm currently building a shed and am a little undecided on what
    type of siding to use.  Right now I'm leaning toward using 1x6
    shiplap pine (kiln dried).  I'm concerned about it cupping or
    warping after it's up.  Has anyone used shiplap pine?  How often
    does it need to be fastened (ie. every 2' more or less on each board
    ... the walls are 7' high).  Thanks.
    
    Steve
    
    Other choices were T1-11 or shakes.
    

    
    Bought a ready-made (gasp!) shed three years ago. Shiplap siding
    nailed directly to the framing studs (16'' O.C., two nails into
    each stud). No gaps, warps etc yet.
    

    You might want to check a thing called "novelty siding".  Basically
    it's tongue and groove with one side on the tongue side beveled
    off:       End View:
    
                  ____
                  |  |
                  |  |
             -----|  |
             |       \
             |        \
             |         \
             |          \
             |          |
             |          |
    
    The "groove" side is just a normal groove.  When installed, it slightly 
    suggests clapboards...at least to me.  It gives a definite shadow
    line, unlike shiplap, and (to me) is more interesting and attractive.
    Should be about the same price.
    
    Steve
    
    
    
    

    Actually I though about novelty siding as well but its twice the price 
    (.60/sq.ft. vs. .30/sq.ft.) for 6" wide boards.  I'm trying
    to keep the cost of a 10'x12' shed to around $600.  Going 
    with the shiplap will allow me to do it.
    
    Steve
    

    V-groove Tongue & Groove, or what you called novelty siding
    is always going to be more expensive than shiplap because
    it's planed on both sides and shiplap is only planed on
    one side.
    I've built a shed with T1-11 siding and a big box to hold
    kindling with shiplap siding.  As I'm typing this I'm looking
    out my window at both of them.  They both held up about the
    same and are about 3 years old.
    

    (Unless they make V-Groove T&G with one rough side
    but I've never seen it).
    

    I'm going to start a T-111 Haters Club. That stuff is ugly! (Obviously
    an unbiased personal opinion :-)
    
    I used 1x10 square edge pine, rough sawn on one side, planed on
    one side to give exact thickness to finish my Maine summer home.
    The plan was to go back and put battens on the seams to make it
    board and batten, but before I got around to it the house weathered
    to a pretty grey and I figured the battens would make it look like
    a reclining Zebra.
    
    I nailed the 1x10 on about 2-3 ' intervals, and placed the nails
    along the edges so the eventual battens would cover them. All the
    books I looked at said NOT to put nails on both edges of wide pine
    since the expansion would move them. I installed the siding in the
    fall of 80 or 81. It is still flat, or as flat as it ever was, and
    shows only minor shrinking. I do regret not using shiplap, since
    I now have gaps between every board that show through to the plywood.
    Someday Im going to have to do the battens and then stain the whole
    place one color.  Someday.
    

    
    I am planning to build a storage shed in the next two weeks. I am
    interested in the 12 x 12 salt box type of shed.
    Jim, or any one of you who has copies of the build plan, can you
    let me borrow the plan to make a copy ? or better yet, make a copy
    and mail it to me. Will appreciate your help. Thanks.
    
    My mail stop is NIO/A02, DTN is 261-3028, Enet is MSEE::CHENG
    
    Thanks.
    

    I'm throwing up a steel-tissue storage shed (yeah, I know their
    eyesore potential - I tried to hide it from the neighbors' view
    pretty well.) It's an Arrow brand, and I bought their foundation
    kit which consists of a flat grid of C-channel members made of the
    same rather thin steel. I want to make a fairly sturdy floor, since
    I have thoughts of pulling my wee little sports car into the shed
    on occasion.
    
    My thought was to fill the foundation grid with sand, and put patio
    blocks or plywood over. (BTW, I don't want to use concrete, the
    shed should be somewhat non-permanent.)
    
    I figure about 15 cubic feet of something is required to fill the
    foundation grid. I priced sand at Channel, $2.99 for a 3/4 cu ft
    (70 lb) bag. So, that's a pretty fair chunk of change (plus quite
    a hauling job unless they will deliver); enough to make me think
    about alternatives.
    
    I have a sizable mound of allegedly good (plantable) black dirt left by
    the former owners, which I have no plans for. What about partially
    filling the grid with that? I imagine I would still want sand over the
    dirt; easier to level and would tend to keep moisture away from the
    flooring? Is black dirt worth less $ than sand, so I wouldn't be making
    an economic boo-boo? 
    
    Other things I'm wondering about:
    Pros & cons of gravel vs. sand fill?
    Pros & cons of patio blocks vs. plywood flooring?

    General brainstorming welcome!
    
    Thanks, Chuck

If you have access to a trailer or pickup truck, you can buy sand for about 
$6-8 a ton (roughly 20 cu ft) at any gravel yard.  That's about a tenth the 
cost of bagged sand.  Also, although topsoil is much more expensive to buy than 
sand, the majority of the cost of any fill is the transport costs.  Since you 
already have the topsoil, if you're sure you're not going to want it as soil in 
the future you might as well use it.  Topsoil is more easily compressed than 
sand, so it wouldn't be good to use as fill under a house foundation, but I 
don't imagine that even with a wee sports car you'll put enough weight on it to 
matter.

Paul

    What does the local inspector have to say?  You probably need a
    permit to build the structure you're thinking of.  If so, I'm sure
    that they'll have ideas on what type of floor you should have.
    
                                        August G. Reinig

    A couple of years ago I bought 7 cubic yards of gravel (what I'd
    call "sand" but officially it's "gravel") delivered, for about $35.
    DON'T buy it by the bag!!!
    
    Steve

    OK, I (finally) have a layer of pea-stone laid (five trash barrels
    full for $7, shoveled by yours truly and hauled in my econobox car.)
    
    I've decided that plywood over the stone will be the easiest thing
    to do. The stone should keep liquid water away from the wood, but
    I fancy it will be pretty humid under there, and no doubt bugs will
    be able to find their way in.
    
    What can I do to make the plywood last as long as possible?
    
    Thanks, Chuck

    I suppose Cuprinol would be a good preservative (the green variety,
    with copper based fungicide - don't drink it).
    
    Q:  Where did you buy the small quantities of pea stone?
    
    __Rich

    The pea stone came from Glenview in Chelmsford, MA. They were most
    agreeable to deal with, especially for such small potatoes. I just
    showed the receipt each trip (five trips on two different days.)
    
    Chuck

They do make pressure-treated plywood.  Ask your lumberyard.  It's probably 
expensive, but it's probably worth the money.

Paul

    Would anyone have any suggestions or know of someone who can
    give me some info on putting a walkway in. I have no walkway to
    my front door and want to put one in. I'm not sure if I want cement
    or stone or ????? . Thanks..... 

    
    
    I have a cement walkway to my house....It's nice cause weeds/grass
    won't grown through it like stone.....and it's easy to clean inthe
    winter.....I'd suggest calling a pool company...the do poolpatio's
    and probably sidewalks too.....
    
    good luck with your decision
    

    I'm planning on doing a brick walkway in front of MY house this
    spring.  Might anybody have any info, suggestions, or caveats?

    
    
    reply .2
    
    advice - start saving your $$$$$$ brick is expensive!!!!
    
    hope you don't have a bad back too!!!
    
    good luck!
    

    I put in about 60' of concrete sidewalk this past summer. The absolute
    worst part was digging down deep enough to put in a 3 or 4 inch
    gravel base below the the 4 inches of concrete to be poured.
    
    The area in front of the house was filled with mostly rock and if
    not for my Jeep I never would have gotten the rocks and roots
    out.

    I built my forms out of green 2 X 4's and had a truck come in to
    pour the concrete. The easiest part was finishing the concrete surface.
    
    The results were definately worth it. I had started out planning
    on a brick walk but quickly changed my mind when I got the prices.

    Re: .2
    
    If you plan on using stonedust, putting in a brick walkway is quite 
    simple.  Using mortar is not only MUCH more time consuming, but 
    difficult for a novice as well.
    
    As was mentioned in .3, brick is not cheap.  Depending on what type
    of brick you use, you can expect to pay roughly 50 cents apiece.
       
    					Steve

Is there any places that you can get 'used' brick for such things as sidewalks??

Jim.

    "Home Mechanix" or "Practical Homeowner" or some such magazine had
    a great article on putting in brick patios and walkways last summer
    or spring.  I'll try to find it.  If anyone else has a better filing
    system than me, I'd appreciate it.
    
    -joet

    Bricks that are specifically meant to be used for walks are called
    "pavers", and they are available in many different colors; they
    are standardized size however, and larger than ordinary structural
    bricks (I think the pavers are sized to occupy 4x6", which includes
    1/2" for mortar joints all around).
      As far as cost goes, I bought 600 of 'em a couple months back:
    $.38 if I recall correctly.  There's a place in Leominster Ma. called
    "Quality Masonry" that has a good selection.
      Unfortunately, I didn't get around to starting my walkway and
    entryway for my front door, before the first snow hit.  Oh well,next
    spring I suppose!
     BTW, I plan on laying pavers in a shallow mortar bed directly over
    an existing concrete walk, with mortar between them; since there
    hasn't been any problem with the concrete cracking so far, I think
    there shouldn't be any reason to dig it all up just to put brick
    down.   Anyone have experience with this kind of approach?
    
    							Jim
    

Re: .5

	What is stonedust?  How do you use it?  Where do you get it?  

George - who is also putting in a walk this Spring or Summer or Fall..

Used brick doesn't work very well for a walkway.  The problem is that when you 
buy used brick, they typically vary quite a bit in size.  This is fine when 
you're going to use mortar between the bricks, but that's not the best way to 
do it, particularly outside (unless, as someone mentioned, you're doing it over 
an existing concrete walk.)  The best way is to bed the bricks in sand or stone 
dust (which is available at any gravel yard).  But if you're going to do that, 
you want the bricks all the same size so they'll fit tightly together.  
Otherwise, you'll get grass growing between all the bricks.

Besides, used brick are just as expensive (sometimes more) than new ones.

Paul

    Stone dust is "ground up" stone, very fine grit, charcoal grey. 
    I don't know how to distinguish it from sand, perhaps somebody can shed
    light. In any case, my next door neighbor on one side used stone dust as the
    top-most base of his brick path. My next door neighbor on the other
    side uses stone dust as the top of his unpaved driveway. Packs tight,
    stays neat, a lot cheaper than paving. Should be able to get it
    at any Sand & Gravel Company. Have no idea of price.

    I put a brick walk in my first house.  The toughest part of course
    is the layout.  Make sure that it all fits evenly before you start.
    I put mine down in sand because frost is problem.  I had seen walks
    put in mortar and gravel (2" of each).  After one or two seasons
    they heaved and looked pretty bad.  So I dug a trench 18" deep by
    the stairs (for about a foot) then 12" deep to the end, filled it
    with sand, laid the brick in then filled in the spaces with sand.
    I let the sand settle for a long time before I put the brick down.
    Also when you buy brick make sure it is an SW (Sever Weather) type
    so that it won't crack.
    
    
    					KO

    RE: 680.2
        680.5
        680.8
    
    Here is another input...
    
    Quality in Leominster also sells std bricks for .28 ea.  They are
    fine for walks - despite what some folks feel.  Just so happens
    if you watch "This Old House", they are offering a video tape that
    has - as one of its projects - brick walks!  I don't recall the
    mail/call address but the price is $29.95.
    
    You may wish to consider used bricks - for several reasons...
    
    *	they are cheaper
    *	if you contact a steel erection company (don't laugh) or some
        demolition company (yellow pages) they usually let you "raid"
    	thier "dump" pile for 8-12 cents a brick.
    *	used brick in landscaping is preferred to new - does not create
    	harsh boundaries/contrasts with surrounding areas - generates
        a softer feel - like "Mother Nature" did it!
    
    Anyhow...just a few thoughts...
    
    Good luck.
    

Just a small note on stonedust.

It is a waste byproduct of stone crunching and as such is cheap (that is why
contractors like to use if for driveways.  There is one large disadvantage
I am told.  It is finely crushed (and sharp rock) and when tracked into the
house can cut things like rugs - just a thought.

     My brother and I put in his walkway two years ago and it still
    looks great. We laid tarpaper first to ward off weeds. Then sand,
    then bricks (surpentine layout). We then swept in masonary sand,
    watered it down, swept in and watered again. No weeds, no buckling
    from the winter, and no sinking bricks. He used used bricks for
    9 cents a piece. Good Luck!

    
    I have the article from "Home Mechanix" on brick patios as mention
    by Joe.  If anyone would like a copy send me mail at WILVAX::GALVIN
    or call DTN 236-2849.
    
    I'd also mention that Time/Life books has a fairly informative section
    on concrete paved walkways, can copy as well.
    
    Mike Galvin
    

    re: stone dust I belive the trade name is Breeze.
    It does pack very tightly but is very messy it becomes muddy if it
    dosent have good drainage and will blow around in high winds.
     Wwe had a driveway of this stuff and it was ok until we could
    put in concrete it does make a fair base for concrete.
    
    -j
    

    re: .16
    
    Thanks for finding the article.  I looked, but it must've crawled
    under something.
    
    re: sand and a barrier
    
    Putting something on top of the sand is a real good idea.  I've
    heard people use 10 mil (?) plastic and tarpaper with good results.
    I believe that you can even slit the stuff (if not done excessively)
    if you need to level a brick or two.
    
    -joet

    Re: Stonedust
    
    I just put in a patio this summer with large patio block and stonedust
    as the fill. Dug out 6" deep, cover dirt with 4 Mil Poly sheets
    for weed control, then 3" stone dust and then tamp and level it.
    When it is perfectly level, (use a 4' board scraped all directions
    to smooth the dust out) then lay your brick and sweep in more dust.
    Sweep in dust until cracks are filled (I didn't leave "morter" joints)
    and then wash down with the hose set on sprinkle. Sweep in more
    dust when dry if needed.
    
    I got the dust at Rizi building supply, solomon pond rd traffic
    circle in Northboro. Dust was cheap, maybe a couple of dollars a
    yard, but add $30 for the delivery charge. Don't recall the charge
    for the bricks. Also, allow for a deposit on the pallets your bricks
    come on.
    
    The advantage of stone dust is that it is "sharp" dust, unlike sand,
    and will bond together once wet down, so that is almost like concrete
    it is settled so tightly. Open spaces like morter joints to driveways
    thought would be muddy and dirty, I would think.

Many years ago, I worked a summer job at a place that had stone dust
tennis courts. They were watered every morning after smothing with
what looked like a wide street broom. The surface was hard enough
to play tennis on and any scuff marks smoothed and repaired easily.
I know of several people who have done driveways from stone dust with
good results. When you put it down and water it (spray it) it will 
soak up water for a quite a while. I have seen walk ways in parks
done with it and there is little problem of tracking the stone dust
as it dosnt stick to your shoes well. It is a econamical material
since most of the cost in the project is labor.

bill

    When I had my driveway paved I also had them pave walkways my front
    and back door. It wasn't that expensive since they had all the
    equipment there already. If you could find someone in you neighboorhood
    that is having pavement work being done, you might get them to do
    it. They blacktop so far has made a good side walk. All I had to
    do was put down a gravel base first.
    
    Mark

    Our new house (9yrs old, new to us) has a cement front stoop and
    sidewalk.  Problem is, the stoop droops!  There is no overhang or
    porch, it just sticks out from the front door, but it looks like
    the front of it is sinking and the back is pulling away from the
    house.  We've heard two suggestions: jack it up, and fill in
    underneath, and 2) get a jackhammer, break it up, and redo it the way
    it should have been done.  Also, one of the sidewalk sections is
    sinking, too.  
    
    Hope to get through this first winter without sliding out the front
    door and into the street, but come spring, any suggestions which
    way is better?

    Can't help you with the drooping stoop... I have a follow on question:
    
    For the brick walkway, how far down should I dig the base on which
    the bricks will be layed??  And how much stone dust / sand should
    be put down??  I've heard suggestions from six to sixteen inches?
    Somebody earlier in this file said 6 inches... Is that about right?
    
    Peter

    
    re: stone dust as paving material 
    
    We've had stone dust in both our previous and present houses. In
    the previous house, both the driveway and the walkway were stone
    dust, and whichever reply it was that said it does not stick to
    your shoes was WRONG. Keeping it out of the house was a constant
    chore.
    
    As a driveway paver, though, it is very good. Extremely inexpensive,
    packs down very hard, easy to maintain and renew.
    
    Stu
    

    
    My neighbor used a material called Crushed Bank as a base for his
    brick walk. He also used it as grout to fill in around the bricks.
    His walk looks great and is still in good shape after approx 6 years.
    
    Is this Crushed Bank the same as Stonedust?? or is ti a kind of
    sand?????

    POSTED IN CONSUMERS AS WELL..
    
    I would like to get some information on the following. I am in need
    of a garden/storage shed, something around 10x12 or 12x12.
    The information I need is as follows
    
    1. Pros/Cons of metal vs. wood shed
    
    2. Prices for the two
    
    3. Good or bad experiences with either
    
    4. Places of purchase and prices
    
    5. Names that I could look for 
    
    6. AND I mention it again, the keywords from above "NEW HOUSE",
       I am not interested in pure junk, but, I do not want to
       have to second mortage my house for this shed either.
    
    Any and all comments will be appreciated.
    
    Regards,
    
    Bob Montville
    JUNIOR::MONTVILLE
    262-8291
    
    

    I built a 12X12 shed a 1 1/2yrs ago, plans were from Grossmans,
    I got alot of scrap 2x4's from Grossmans for cheap money, put on
    pine clap board siding. I think it cost me about $400- 500 when
    I was done, the main expense was the P.T. lumber for the floor framing
    
    If you would like a copy of the plans, send me mail at AMULET::TAYLOR
    with your mail stop and I'll ship them off.
    
    My personal opinion, the metal sheds look kind of cheap.....
    
    
    
    Royce

    The only advantages of the metal sheds are (1) easy to build, and
    (2) cheaper.   They're usually scrap metal within a few years.
    
    I've never seen one that I thought looked good.  Don't buy one.
    

        A friend wanted me to help out and repair a metel shed that
        the snow damaged this year. I looked at this so called metel
        shed from snears and rubbish. The side panels were thinner
        than phone book cardboard. 1 10,, storm caved it in.
         I built my shed 12yrs ago and its still there.
         go with wood un less you plan building sheds every year.
    
    
    
    
                                              Lou

    	I put together a Sears 14'x12' shed with a friend a few years
    back.  The ad said that it could be "put together in ONE day",  the 
    first instruction in the booklet was to "start very early in the
    morning.  We got it up in about 10 hours.  Yes they are ugly, but they 
    are cheap.  The Sears shed is still standing and in good condition
    after 5 years.

    The kids in the neighborhood like to toss rocks at my neighbors
    metal shed and play a tune.  It is all dented and ready to be hauled
    to the dump.  Unless you hide it behind a bunch of shrubs, these
    sheds become eyesores with time.

    
    All the people I know who have had a metal shed, myself included,
    are now opting for a wood shed.  
    
    I know 4 people, myself included, who had the doors on their metal
    shed, blow off, break off, or fall off, within a year after putting
    them up.
    
    Ray

    I put up a metal shed 3 years ago. The first year, it was fine.
    The second year, one of my kid bang on the door with the bicycle.
    And ever since then, always have trouble opening/closing the door
    . Fortunately, last year when the big storm ( Gloria ? ) came, a
    tree felt off and colllapsed the shed. I junked it and insurance
    paid the replacement cost. I am now planning to put up a WOOD shed
    this summer.
    

    
    If we wanted to make a brick front walk-way, would we have to
    use mortar, or could we just set the bricks into the ground?
    
    Donna
    

    
    I would like to add to this question. I am planning to build a dry
    brick (no mortar,set in layers of gravel and fine sand) later in
    the summer. I have, however, a drop of about 4 feet in a 40 foot
    run so walk will need intermediate steps or might be dangerous in
    winter. Does anyone have good suggestions/design for single step
    in brick walk without landscape timber edges (walk is curved)?
    I plan about 3 single steps about 5-6 feet apart since walk is on
    a gradual slope.
    
    Thanks in Advance.
    
    Larry
    

    ref. .0  You can set in mortar or sand, sand works well in New England
    because our freeze/thaw cycles don't damage sand joints.
    
    ref. 1  Timbers are common and inexpensive. Their also available
    in dark used RR ties, green PT, etc., but if you don't what to use
    them you could try something like a piece of granite, concrete blocks
    or build the riser out if the same paving brick that your using
    for the walk(you'll have to mortar everything together).
    
    P.S. Where can one get the best price on a paving brick in southern
    NH. Corriveau-Routhier of Nashua has them for about 30 cents each?
    
    Bill D.
    

    If you're putting down a brick walk with sand, be sure to put down
    a layer of heavy polyethelene before you lay the brick. This will
    help to prevent grass and weeds from growing up in between the bricks.
    I have fond memories of digging the little fellows out of our sidewall
    every year when I was a kid. This probably isn't a bad idea to do
    even if you decide to use mortar. Somebody else could probably provide
    more details on the pros and cons of this, as well as what thickness,
    whether to put it down before or after you grade, etc.
    
    - Ram

    Bricks and sand fillers:

    Be careful of the type of brick you use. You need to use a type called 
"pavers" that are properly hardened and will not spalt or chip. Regular 
bricks will break down within a few years, causing no end of frustration 
and expense to replace. I think patio blocks are hard enough to withstand 
our winters and not self destruct, but you should get some professional 
advice before you plunk your money down.

    The second thing to use, instead of sand, is stone dust. It is a by 
product of stone crushing operations and has a mix of grey material ranging 
from chips 1/8" across to a very fine dust. This makes a very good base 
over your heavy plastic sheet, can be tamped and smoothed, and your bricks 
placed on top of this. then sweep more stone dust into the cracks and water 
thoroughly to set it. The stuff will, with a few sweepings into the cracks 
and waterings, set up almost like concrete. You can set your bricks next to 
each other or give them a small spacing and then fill with stone dust.

    Other points, when you put the plastic sheeting down, puncture it with 
a pitchfork every 6-8" to provide drainage. Use landscaping timbers for 
edging and bring the plastic right up to the top of the timbers  and cut 
offthe excess with a razor blade when done. This will prevent most of your 
weed problem from occuring each year and will be a solid walkway for you.

    Any more questions, drop me a line.

    		Vic

    Another reason for using paver is because of their size.  The length
    is exactly equal to the width of two bricks.  From what I am told,
    this is not the case with a brick that was made for a wall.  This
    allows you to create designs like hearingbone (sp?) etc without
    any difficulty.

    Just an aside...
    
    I bought a book last night (at Spag's, of course) by Sunset Press
    entitled "All about Landscaping" (I think that's it) for $7.95 that
    contained a lot of information on almost all aspects of landscaping
    including building walks (brick, concrete, others), building borders
    from different materials, building planters, retaining walls, stone
    walls, etc......  The illustrations are very good. (important to us
    beginners).
    

    I'd recommend an alternative to the plastic weed barrier. It's called
    landscape fabric (I believe made by Dupont). This is a long fiber
    blend of material that allows water to pass through while at the
    same time forming a barrier to any unwanted weed growth. I've used
    it before and it's alot easier to work with then plastic and alot
    stronger. It comes in rolls of varying width and lenghts and costs
    about 2 to 3 times the cost of plastic but well worth it. I've also
    used it to cover subsurface drainage pipes/stone to keep the fines
    from clogging the system, works great!
    

    
    Doing brickwork can be a lot of fun (lot of work too). work out
    your pattern on graph paper to scale.
    
    I would not suggest any plastic under the brickwork in NE...reason,
    Ice will crack the bricks and water will not drain as readily.
    
    one suggestion too - put a slight crown in the walkway...like a
    road. I boardered my walk with old RR ties. make sure you have a
    good gravel base. do not use mortar and you will always be able
    to replace broken bricks. Stone dust is ok, it just compacts more
    than sand. kill weeds w/Isotox or any petroleum product like paint
    thinner. Isotox is better though. a 4' in 40' drop is an easy decline,
    but 2 or 3 steps could look nice. You can get hooked on brickwork,
    so be careful or you'll be doing a lot of it.
    
    				___GM___

    
    How about other material besides bricks? 
    
    I'm considering 2" thick slate for a patio.
    
    pro's and con's ?
    
    				- Joel

    How much should slate (or bluestone) cost per square foot or
    piece?  I'm mainly interested in pieces about 1 foot square.
    Any recommendations on where to get it (between Framingham &
    Worcester)?  I take it that this is one item that is NOT carried
    at Spags.
    
    -al

BTW, slate and bluestone (flagstone) are not the same things.  Slate is much 
finer grained, and I'm pretty sure it's considerably more expensive.

As far as buying it is concerned, go to Precourt in Sudbury.  They have VASTLY 
lower prices than anyone else in the area - and a large area at that.  They are 
listed even in the Nashua yellow pages, because it's worth taking the drive 
down there.  I asked about bluestone last year, and at Corriveau-Routhier in 
Nashua it was $4.00 a square foot, at Precourt it was $2.00.  A mere 50% off.

Precourt is on Union Rd in Sudbury, about 1/10 of a mile from Rt 20.  Union Rd 
is the road with the stoplight across from Sudbury Farms and another new mall.

Paul

    Ditto on Precourt. They will also do custom work if asked - we had a
    bluestone floor put in our conservatory addition four years ago, and
    also designed a built-in pool/waterfall at one end. The waterfall was
    achieved by means of a bluestone slab that is about 4" x 18" x 8'
    (yes, ' - the thing weighs about 400 pounds) with much of the top
    hollowed out to provide a basin, and the front edge of the basin
    ground down flat so the water from the basin cascades over the front
    into the pool - a pump cycles water from the pool up into the basin
    through a hole in the bottom of the bluestone slab. We designed it,
    Precourt cut it for us. 
    

    We made the mistake of buying a metal shed when we lived in the
    city of Rochelle, IL.  Down there, the land is flat to the horizon,
    and we lived right on the edge of town....our back yard bordered
    a corn field.  Well, the winds we got down there would actually
    rip the metal panels that formed the walls from around the screw
    heads that held the whole thing together.  We sold the place a year
    after we put up the shed, but I'd never go with a metal shed again.

    I built a brick walk about 5 years ago. I dug down two feet, put
    16 in. of crushed stone in followed by 6 in. of sand. On top of
    this I layed paving bricks with no cracks between them. So far it
    looks as good as the day it was put in.  I've been told this is
    approximately the technique used in Boston Common. 

    Does anyone know where I might find Cobblestones to be used
    instead of brick?

    Re: .7
    	I have a roll of landscape fabric that I'm planning to put 
    under a path I'm laying.  The path will be gravel or pebbles 
    (~ 2") or brick (the front door path) on a base of stone dust.
    How much ston edust do I really need in New England.  I was figuring
    on 6 inches; someone mentioned 22" which seems excessive.  I don't
    want it to heave, but I don't want to break by back (or the bank)
    by diggeing down more than necessary. 
    
    	Oh, yes: the fabric!  Should I put it under the stone dust,
    or half way up?
    
    	I'm also planning to put 6" or so of crushed rock around my
    foundations to absorb rainwater runnoff (no gutters).  There is
    a french drain about 4' down.  Is it a good idea to put the fabric
    under the crushd stone too - it will stop the weedsd, but is it
    permiable enough to water that I won't defeat the object of the
    stone?
    
    	Andrew
    

    re: .15
    
    The WANT-ADvertiser usually has several ads for cobblestones in
    the building supplies section.  Also check the farm & garden section.
    
    Pete

I too want to build a brick walk, but I'm bothered by the fact that I have a
set of precast concrete steps.  I would love nothing more than to brick it over
(it would certainly make a nice base) but that would raise it several inches
making the spacings all wrong.  As an alternative, I wonder if I could tile over
it, thereby only raising the steps around 1/2-3/4 of an inch.  Then the only
problem is to find something reasonable close to the brick I'd want to use.

Has anybody ever tried this?

-mark

    
    I plan to build a wood storage shed about 8 x 12. I bought a plan
    and it suggests to use 'plywood' as siding. I had bad experience
    with plywood on my deck - it rotten in a few years. Also don't like
    the way it look. I've seen some nice shed with pine wood siding.
    Looks nice, at least those on display. But I've heard that pine
    is not good for outdoor usage. Any comment/suggestions ?
    I also don't like the look of Texture 11 siding.

	When I was a boy I helped my father build a storage shed. We
    used rough-sawn white pine boards for siding. We painted the boards
    with an enamel paint and they looked pretty nice. Fifteen years
    later when we moved the shed was still standing and the siding looked
    as good as the day we painted it. We had to make sure that the ends
    of the boards were painted because that is the first place that wood 
    starts to absorb moisture.                           
    
    	If you would rather not paint the siding, Cuprinol stain is very
    effective against rot when it is applied to all sides of the wood,
    even areas that are not directly exposed to the weather. It may
    seem like a nuisance to carry a paint brush and bucket of stain
    around when you are constructing your shed but you will appreciate
    the effort in five years when your shed still looks brand new.

    	You shouldn't set the shed near the ground because water rolls
    off the roof and splashes against the siding and in addition to the
    water problem the siding would get very dirty. If you don't want
    to bother putting gutters on the roof then you should dig a drainage
    trench around the shed and fill it with crushed stone.
    
    	Did you use plywood on your deck?!? When you build anything, 
    the first priority should be to keep the structure from constantly 
    getting wet. If this is unavoidable (such as when building a deck) 
    then you should make sure that the wood can dry out as soon as 
    possible. Any type of plywood should not be used in a situation
    where it will repeatedly get wet. If the plywood doesn't seperate 
    due to the glue breaking down then it would certainly rot because 
    it will always retain a certain amount of water. 
    
    	Some stores (I don't want to drop names) sell storage shed kits
    that use composition board siding. Most people buy these kits thinking
    that they have all they need and don't bother to purchase any
    additional siding to install over the sheathing. Usually these people
    find that after 2 or 3 years the siding on thier sheds has seperated
    or become soft and mushy (not rotted) that is because the main
    component in the composition board is glue and when the wood swells
    from moisture the glue seperates from the wood and when that happens
    a good stiff breeze will rip the siding off the shed.
    

    Pine siding ought to be fine.  You might consider something called
    "novelty siding".  (Where that name came from I have no idea!)
    It's basically tongue & groove boards with one corner on the tongue
    edge beveled off:
    
    	----		It looks sort-of like clapboards when it's installed,
    	|  |		and for a shed you could use just the novelty
    	/  ----		siding with no underlayment layer.  Keep the
       /      |		shed up off the ground, paint or stain it, and
      /       |		it should be fine.
     /        |
    |	      |   ^
. . . . . . . . . |
    |	      |   |about 5" or 6" boards
    |	      |   v
    |  |  |   |
    ---   -----

    I put pine clap board siding on my shed over the the particle board
    sheathing and stained it. it looks pretty good to me, much nicer
    than using T-111 sheathing/siding.
    
    
    
    Royce

Are you building the shed to match the house? If so, then that should be 
the deciding factor as to the siding you put on. I, too, don't like 
T-111 siding and am in the progress of shingling the house and will also 
cover the woodshed. It looks good and not as if the shed was a total 
afterthought which it would be with t-111 ;-)

Good cedar shingles to cover an 8X12 shed shouldn't cost all that much. 
Of course you'll still need sheathing, but 7/16 waferboard is about 
$6/sheet...

Chris

    No one mentioned it so I will. I suggest you spend the little extra
    money and build the subframe out of PT lumber. A 8x12' shed can
    get by with PT 2x4's for its floor joist (unless you plan to store
    refrigerators in it). The floor framing is usually the first section
    to start rotting and PT lumber seems to retard this aging process.
    I also second the idea about crushed stone around the perimeter.
    On my last shed I set PT 2x4's on edge about 2' out from the edge
    of the shed. I then filled the shed side with 3 to 6" rocks I excavated
    from around my lot and brought the loam and seeded area up against
    the other side. It looked nice and was easy to maintain and trim
    whenever I cut the lawn. 

    Does anyone have any experience with bluestone walks?  I need a
    front walk and I thought bluestone would be a nice change from
    the traditional brick which everyone has, including most of my
    neighboors.

    I am debating whether to do it myself or hire a pro.  Any information
    on where to buy bluestone (other than Precourt and Corriveau-Routhier)
    or who installs bluestone in the Westford, Ma. area would be
    apreciated.

    Carol

    
    
    	Response to 1249.2 (novelty siding) -
    
    
    	   I think you are decribing "Shiplap" siding. I have this
    	type of siding on my 40+ year old garage and it seems to be 
    	holding up very well. This type of siding makes a good choice 
    	for horizontal siding because it is one step sheathing/siding 
    	and it adds quite a bit of strength to the structure.	
                                             
    
    	Glenn

    > I think you are describing "Shiplap" siding.
    
    That sure doesn't look like shiplap to me.  That's V-groove T&G.
    
    

>    Does anyone have any experience with bluestone walks?  

Yes, I've done them.  They take more work than a brick walk, which is probably 
why you see mostly brick walks.  The problem with bluestone is that the edges 
don't fit together tightly like brick, so if you just set the bluestone in sand 
or crushed stone, you'll have a couple of problems:  1) Sweeping the walk is a 
pain, because the broom hits the sand in between and drags it out.  You 
basically have to sweep each stone separately.  2)  The cracks collect organic 
material, and then weeds start to grow there.  You have to constantly keep them 
weeded.

The solution is to mortar the joints, but if you just mortar the joints while 
the stone is on a sand bed, the stones will shift and the joints will all crack 
out.  So that means you have to pour about a 4" concrete slab underneath, and 
then set the bluestone on that.

To set the bluestone, after the concrete has set up, mix up a batch of 
stoneless concrete, and make it very dry.  Not quite crumbly, but almost.  Be 
very careful adding water at the end, because an amazingly small amount of 
water will take you from a-little-too-dry to way-too-wet.  Also, at that mixing 
stage make sure the concrete is totally mixed before you add more water.  It 
often seems too dry before it's all mixed together.  Anyway, wet the concrete 
slab, (not soaking, just well dampened), and then dump a bunch of the dry 
mixture where you're going to start.  Set your first stone, using a rubber 
mallet and a level to get it in the correct position.  When you have it where 
you want it, lift it up carefully, and pour a watery mixture of mortar mix (no 
sand) underneath.  Spread it out, and then set the stone back in and give it a 
few whacks with the mallet, and check it with the level again.  Set all the 
stones this way.  After they're dry, make a fairly dry mortar mixture (with 
sand this time) about the same consistency as the concrete mixture you set them 
in, and use it to fill in the joints, using a pointing trowel (a trowel about 
1/2" wide) to pack it in.

That's it.

Paul

    Novelty siding is different than ship-lap and different than V-Groove
    T&G. The previous description is correct, i.e. tongue-n-groove with
    part of the face surface taken off down to the tongue. The novelty
    siding that I've seen usually has about 1/3 the face cut with a slight
    curve in a concave shape. 

    Charly 

    For the record, shiplap is like this:
    
    -----------------------------------------------------
    |							|    
    ----						----
       |						   |
       -----------------------------------------------------

    How does bluestone differ from fieldstone or slate?  I've never
    heard of it.

    
    Thanks for all your replies. To sum up, I think I will do the 
    following : 
    
    1.  I will use pine for siding. It will not require to use sheathing
        or underlayment, just nail the pine to the stud. Right ?
    
    2.  Its better to paint the shed with cupriol. It won't peel like
        latex/oil paint and yet gives good protection to the wood and
        will have the natural wood appearance which I like.
    
    3.  I plan to use PT lumber as subframe to be placed over 16 x 16
        patio block. This reduces the possibility of lumber contacting
    	water.
    
    ref. to 1249.2  Are the boards to be installed horizontally or
    vertically ? Which side on the picture is facing out ?
    I've seen some wood shed with beveled pine siding that looks like
    a " V " between 2 boards and looks very nice. Are those novelty
    or V-Groove ?
     
    

    Novelty siding is installed horizontally.  In the picture I drew,
    the left-hand side is "out".  

>        Novelty siding is installed horizontally.  
    
    Who says?
    
    

    Well, if it's installed horizontally water will run off it better.
    Beveling off that corner on the tongue side has the effect of
    eliminating any horizontal crack where water can sit, so the 
    siding ought to last longer.  If you install it vertically you
    have all those long cracks just waiting for water to seep into
    them.  

    If you're just going to put the pine siding over the studs (DON'T
    put novelty siding vertically, BTW), you probably should let-in
    some 1X4 diagonal braces near the corner.

	In order to set the record straight novelty siding or novelty board
	was (is?) used to get the look of narrow boards without the work.
	It was/is tongue and groove with a shallow V down the center with
	matching bevels applied at the tongue and groove sides.  The final
	appearance would be many 2" or 3" boards when actually it was 4"
	or 6" wide.  I think there are two sections per board, it might
	be three.  Also I think there was single groove and double groove.
	I'm doing this from memory so it might be off slightly.  My house
	is approximately 60 years old and the fromt and back porch use
	novelty board on the inside walls (vertically) and on the ceiling
	painted (horizontally :-); incidentally they used to paint porch
	ceilings sky blue.

	Below are cross sectional views (very coarse I hate drawing with
	ascii characters) of novelty board.  

	   _____________  _____________
	 _/             \/            _\
	|_                           |_		Single Groove
	  |____________________________|

	   _  __________  _  __________  _
	 _/ \/          \/ \/          \/_\
	|_                               |_	Double Groove
	  |________________________________|


	Hope this clarifies things... Randy

>    	In order to set the record straight novelty siding or novelty board
>	was (is?) used to get the look of narrow boards without the work.

    Where is this documented?
    I have a different definition of novelty siding which includes a
    curved surface on one face as described by someone else in an earlier
    reply.  The drawing you provided doesn't include any curves.
    

    Randy, I beg to differ. I have seen the type of siding that you just
    described, and it may indeed be called "novelty" by some people and
    some manufacturers, but the there is a siding as described by myself
    and others that is different and "also" called novelty siding. 
    
    To re-iterate, it is a tongue-n-groove type of siding with a portion of
    the face side removed, usually in a concave shape. The concave area is
    usually 1 - 2 inches wide. It is also used as an outside siding where
    as yours is usually used inside or on porches. 
    
    Sorry to sound like I'm nit picking but the prior note rubbed me the
    wrong way. As far as sidings and other milled pieces of lumber go there
    are many-many-many types, sizes and variations over time and between
    manufacturers. Many may share the same name.

    Charly

1249.18 

    > Randy, I beg to differ. I have seen the type of siding that you just
    > described, and it may indeed be called "novelty" by some people and
    > some manufacturers, but the there is a siding as described by myself
    > and others that is different and "also" called novelty siding. 
    
	Charly-

	   Actually in thinking about this a little more and reading your
	response, basically I agree.  All the people I had talked with
	read "old-timers" called it novelty board.  I have not seen it in
	a lumber yard in recent years; so maybe it was novelty board then
	but novelty board has been redefined to what you described which
	I have seen in most lumber yards.  Be interesting if we could find
	a definition/picture in a book somewhere then and now.

						- Randy

	I have a couple old construction books, I tend to collect these
	as an old house owner, I'll see if I can find anything.
	I know particle board and wafer board aren't in there :-)

    RE: .16
    What you describe in .16 is what all the "old-timers" I've talked
    to called "matched boards".  These days, at least, it's not what
    is generally thought of as novelty siding.  But it may depend on
    geographic location too.  All these terms were pretty vague and
    regional in the past, I'm sure...and sometimes in the current day,
    too, for that matter.

perhaps it's time for a shed keyword?

i need to build a shed.  my problem is that while i have to store
all the usual stuff in it during the summer, i have to store a
car (a small one) in it during the winter.

i'm thinking 4" of gravel with 4" of concrete poured on top for the
floor.  ideally i would like to have the floor surface level with
the ground, but i'm open to having the floor a little higher and
getting the car in with ramps.

my question is this - what is the best way to build on a concrete 
slab without having the wood rot away on me in a few years?  i'm
planning on using pressure treated stuff around the base, but i
have a feeling that it won't be enough.

my idea is to pour some gravel, then build a liner out of pressure
treated 4x6, then fill it with concrete.  i would then stud using the 
4x6 as my base.  something like this:


			concrete	     4x6  gravel   dirt...	
		________________________________
		>			    |   |
		<			    |	|oooooo**********
		>ooooooooooooooooooooooooooo|___|oooooo***************
		<oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo***********************

with the gravel under the 4x6 can i expect it to last 10, 15, 20 years
without rotting?  (remember, this is pressure treated)

should i stud into the 4x6, or should i nail a 2x4 into the concrete
and stud into that?

thanks for all the help.

bs

    
    	It sounds like you are making a simple thing complicated.
    Most pressure treated lumber is rated for 30-40 years, sometimes
    warranteed also, of direct ground contact. If you are going to
    place the shed on a concrete slab, my guess is that you can add
    another 10-20 years to the life expectancy.
    
                    
    Glenn
    

    thanks for the info, and the work of caution.  i don't know as if
    a crack would tear the structure apart, and if it shifts, as long
    as the whole structure shifts...
    
    i didn't realize that pressure treated lumber lasted so long in
    contact with the ground.  i'll probably be dead in 40 years.
    
    thanks again.
    
    bs

>        thanks for the info, and the work of caution.  i don't know as if
>    a crack would tear the structure apart, and if it shifts, as long
>    as the whole structure shifts...


    I didn't say a crack would tear the structure apart.  But a crack
    or cracks could could cause problems with doors and windows.  But
    then again, it's your shed and as my friend likes to say,
    
    
    
    
    		"It looks good from my yard!"

    
    
    
    Then again, I always like to plan for the worst.

    The theory behind building on a slab is that the frost causes it
    to shift, the entire slab shifts. It shouldn't crack as long as
    you put wire mesh in the concrete. If you plan to put a foundation
    around it, you have to go three plus feet down (depending on the
    frost in your area), otherwise the frost will lift the outside shell
    and leave the center. 
    
    I recommend pressure treated sills attached to the slab by drilling
    holes into the sill and putting L shaped bolts into the wet concrete
    and tightening down the washer and nut after the cement is dry.
    Be carefull not to locate the bolts at the 16" on center locations
    where the wall studs will be located.

    I second the advice of .6, you should build on top of the slab.
    The slab should have concrete wire fence installed before you pour
    the floor. I'd recommend installing reinforcing bars in the concrete
    if you don't go with the wire. I like the bars because they have
    better shear strenght and your floor can crack all over(which it
    is likily to do over time) and the whole thing will still float
    around as a single slab. You can usually pick up scap re.rod at
    most metal salvage yards for almost nothing. The only other
    recommendation I have is that you might what to go alittle thicker
    on the slab and gravel base. Either way, make sure you compact the
    sh_t out of the gravel base before pouring the concrete. If you
    don't rent a mechanical compactor, use a tamper and keep wetting
    down the gravel between tampings. 

    Why not just pour the J-bolts into the slab and avoid all that drilling
    and make it stronger at the same time? It is not that difficult
    to determine where the studs will be before starting the pour.
    Just mark on the form where the stud will be and locate the j-bolt
    between them.
    BTW-My parents garage 30x30' was built on a slab(monolithic) 17
    years ago and shows very little sign of cracking or movement.
    
    -j
    

    
    Based on experience of building three sheds, I recommend you go
    with replies .6 and .7.  Definitely wire mesh the floor, use the
    J-bolts (install when concrete is wet, properly placed to not hit
    studs), a footing would be nice depending on the size of the shed,
    and use pressure treated lumber for the sill.  Don't make it more
    complicated than you have to...use the same construction techniques
    employed when framing a house, the person who purchases the home
    after you're long gone will appreciate it.
    
    Mo 

    one more time, thanks everybody for all the useful input.
    
    i'll be pouring the slab in another week, the building the shed
    the week after that.  i'll let you know how i make out.
    
    thanks again.
    
    bs

    What we are talking about is called a "floating slab" where I come
    from and works fine, even tho the frosts are considerably deeper
    in Minnesota that New England.  I've built a couple of double garages
    this way and both floors and structure and done fine.
    
   The trick is for the concrete on the perimeter to be considerably
   thicker and reinforced with at least a couple rebars.  

       __________________________________________________
~~~~~~~| o   ______________________________________   o |~~~~~~~~~~~~~
       | o  /                                      \  o |
       |___/       tamped fill (sand)               \___|

    The center of the pad should be 3-4 inches deep and reinforced with
    concrete mesh.  Keep pulling it up while pouring to make sure it
    is not just flattened against the bottom.  The perimeter trench
    should be about 12 inches deep and 8 inches wide at the bottom.
     
    Don't forget to wet and pack the fill for a good base.  Reinforcing
    rods and mesh are the key to keeping the slab in one piece.  Even if it
    develops small cracks, its will not buckle and harm the structure
    above.  After all, the build bridges, skyscrapers, and boats out of the
    stuff!! 
   
    Have fun!
    
    -dj-
    
    

RE: -.1

	Hey!  This looks like *just* what I need for the shed I'm building.
        Do you think that I could pour a 12 X 12 version of this in one 
        piece?  Do you see any problem with letting this slab float a bit
        on the high side, keeping the wood part a little farther away from
        the ground?
        
        (Glad to hear from someone who's had experience with these in a 
        cold climate.)
        
        /john

I <think> this is a new question.... 

I need to blacktop a SMALL area, and don't know how.... 

After tearing down my front deck, and having prefab concrete steps delivered,
there is a 1' gap between the end of the stairs and my front walk.   The front
walk is blacktop (asphalt).  It was suggested that, for small areas, I could
purchase some do-it-yourself blacktop that could be spread with merely a shovel
to fill the 1' x 3' area. 

Anyone had experience with this? 

    I have used the Blacktop patch from Grossman's to fill a crater
    that opened up in my driveway.  It has been in place for three years
    in a heavy traffic area with no problems.  It comes out of the bag
    (50 lb) in a lump you won't believe, but break it up with a garden
    rake and it will settle right in.  I placed a 2X10 over it and drove
    the car over the board to pack and smooth it.  For what you described
    it should work fine.
    
    Frank
    

    As an alternative, why not use concrete?  If it is at the bottom
    of the steps, it will look like a continuation of the steps, no?
    I have used some of that blacktop stuff and it is hard to get a
    smooth acceptable finish (maybe .1 has an idea) that looks the same
    as the old stuff.

    I am preferential to brick walks.  I put in one this spring (to
    replace the very messy, temporary stone dust one).  I just went to
    my local NHD and got the Ortho book on masonary.  It had all the
    details I needed.  It didn't suggest putting the plastic under to
    reduce weed growth, hmmmmm.  My beautiful new walk is about 60'
    long and 52" wide.  I set it up with a half basket weave pattern
    to cut the minimum number of bricks, since I had never cut bricks.  
    As it turned out, I rented a masonary saw from Taylor and it worked 
    very well.  (next time I will take on the herring bone pattern!)  I
    put sailors along the edge (bricks on end).
    
    The steps are:
    
    	1) purchase material
    		o bricks (get *modular* pavers 2.25"x4"x8" for easy 
    			 (placment - range from about $.30-.50/ea)
    			 (mine $.38/ea for 1550 bricks)
    			 (assume about 5 bricks/sq ft of area, this
    			 (leaves some room for errors and bricks broken
    			 (in transit etc. - add the number of sailors 
    			 (to this, if you go this route)
       		o stone dust (plan on 3" under bricks $20-25/ton)
    			     (think I wound up using about 4 ton)
    		o pressure treated 6x6 or other material for edges
    			 (if sailors are not used)
           	o tools 
    			tamper - (to tamp stone dust)
    				 (looks like ===========|| handle
    				 (with cast plate on end - $20-25)
    			pick, shovel, wheelbarrow (for excavation)
    			hose (to wet stone dust for compaction)
    			garden trowel, dandelion cutter (for putting
    				 (in the sailors)
    			cheapest 2x3, pegs, chaulk line, 12p nails 
    				 (for layout)
    			2X8 (to make screeds)
    
	2) Excavation - excavate area to 5-6" depth (2.25" for brick 
    		plus 3" for stone dust) and about 1' wider than walk.
    
    	3) Layout - measure and fiddle around until you figure out where
    		you want the walk.  Cut up 2x3 to create pegs about
    		1' long.  Attach to ends of 8' 2x3 and pound into ground.
    		Set these rails so the inside edge of the 2x3 is the
    		outside edge of the walk and the top edge is the top
    		of the walk.  These rails will be used to guide your
    		screed (leveler).  Make two screeds so that when they
    		run down the rails the bottom conforms to 1) the bottom
    		of the stone dust 2) the bottom of the bricks (top of
    		stone dust).
    
    	4) Sailors (can use 6x6 (PT), railroad ties, 1x4 (PT) (not 
    		recommended, since it is not rigid enough. builders
    		do) for edge of walk) - After rails are in excavate along
    		edge and sink these suckers in.  Prepare to adjust one
    		edge of the walk after brick surface is laid.  If you
    		place bricks next to each other, they are rough and
    		add up to more or less than expected.  Layout sveral
    		test widths (width of your walk inside edges) and measure
    		to determine average width.  You will always be looking 
    		for a "long" or "short" or "narrow" or "wide" brick
    		when actually laying out the bricks.
    
    	5) Stone dust - After the sailors or edges are in place, do 
    		final excavation to get bottom down to correct level.  
    		Dump in stone dust screed to correct level, wet, 
    		tamp...repeat...repeat until you have a firm hard 
    		compacted base at the right level.
    
    	6) Bricks - Lay in your bricks.  This is the fun, easy part.
    		Leave holes where bricks are to be cut.
    
    	7) Cut bricks - Rent masonary saw ($30/day + $10/disk at Taylor)
    		I used only 1 disk but it didn't quite cut the last
    		few bricks through.  This takes quite a bit of time.
    		Get the saw as soon as they open, return just before
    		they close.  The saw does a nice job, but cutting and
    		fitting take quite a bit of time (I'm picky).  It took
    		me a whole day and I didn't cut too many bricks)

    	7) Remove rails, adjust sailors (if needed) and back fill to 
    		edge of walk.  Get some sod and fix the edge along the 
    		walk.
            
    	8) Spread stone dust on surface - Spread the stone dust on the
    		surface.  Leave it around long enough to walk in and 
    		get rained on or wet with hose gently to wash into the 
    		small cracks between bricks.  This prevents your bricks
    		from shifting when walked on.  Sweep up excess and wash 
    		off excess.
    
    	9) Stand back and admire for about a week.  Take polaroids and
    		show all your friends and especially your enemys (with
    		stone dust, black top, slate, or concrete for walks).
    
    Now, how much work was this?  Well, for those of you who don't like
    long, hard projects I suggest you quit right now.  I would estimate
    it took me 80-100 manhours.  (one month of every night after work
    and 8-10 hrs/day weekends)  My back got *really* tired putting
    in the sailors and cutting the brick (up, down,up,down) but my lower
    back has never been that good.  It is a pain in the knees too.
    For those of you who want a beautiful walk, get started.  I spent
    most of my time on the layout and sailors step (neatness counts
    here).  The rest was really quite a bit of fun.
    
    Stan

    re: .26
    
    One further note here.  I set each brick individually by giving
    a 2"x4"x8" piece of wood on each brick a couple of good raps with
    a 4lb. masonary hammer.  If the brick sunk too low, I removed it,
    added stone dust and reset it.  I am a perfectionist.  (I used a
    similar approach to set the sailors)
    
    Stan

    Plastic under the bricks works great!  Remembering people use plastic
    for garden rows to stop the weeds I figured it should work for walks.
    Last spring I moved the walk, putting plastic down first.  A few
    weeds grew where I spilled dirt putting in flowers but they popped
    right out.  It may be too early to tell, but the plastic may also
    be inhibiting the moss growth...
    
    							Don

    If you have been watching This Old House recently, you've probably
    seen them putting down these concrete pavers instead of bricks.
    The ones they put down were hexagonal shape with a rectangle off
    of one side. My question is, does anyone have any experience with
    these. Are they really considerably cheaper than brick? I really
    liked the walkways they put down with these things. If anyone has
    any pro's or con's on looks, breakage, etc., I'd appreciate it.
    
    Tim, with spring fever in January
    

    Seems to me they said the pavers were $0.75 apiece.
    
    Sounds like I can get bricks cheaper than that.  Is my memory rotten?

re Note 1191.22 by TOOK::ARN:

> Are they really considerably cheaper than brick? 

Did they say that they were cheaper than brick?

My understanding is that they were more durable than conventional brick, not
that they were cheaper.

Bob

    I put down the hexagonal concrete pavers on my driveway last year.
    750 square feet.  The total job (including gravel, stone dust for
    the base under it, and the rental of the power tamper and block
    cutter) cost somewhere in the ballpark of $1200.
    
    Those things are very nice.  They're also a LOT of work to do right
    (not difficult, just bullwork), I estimate I moved a total of around
    15 tons of gravel, stone dust, pavers, etc. doing the job.

    MRO3 has the hexagonal pavers in front of the door, they're asphalt,
    though, not concrete.

    
    re .25
    
    Where in Nashua did you buy the pavers? Do you remember what they
    cost?
    
    Thanks in advance
    
    Tim
    

    The pavers came from Ideal Block Co. in Westford, MA.  They will
    deliver.
    
    They have a lot of different designs for the pavers as well as a
    lot of different colors.  Go down and visit them sometime if you
    want to see the variety.
    
    As I said before, 750 SF came to about $1200 (plus?), though I don't
    remember the cost of the pavers alone.

    I did my front walk last summer with the cobble pavers.  My cost
    here in Vt. was $.62 per paver.  The total cost of the project
    excluding liquids necessary for re-hydration was $482 which is 
    about $5 per sq. ft.  That includes pavers,gravel,sand,trucking
    fees,tamper and the splitter.  I strongly recommend renting the
    splitter as it is very easy to use.  It also allows you to 
    cut some of the scrap pieces therby reducing waste and cost.
    
      As said earlier, they are easier to put in but require alot
    of muscle.

    I would like to build a shed...
    
    Could use some ideas on size and cost.  Has anyone done this?
    How long did it take?  Any plans available.
    
    I want something large enough for 2 motorcycles, lawnmower,
    and all the other typical things for yard maintenance.
    
    I was thinking 8' by 8'.  I want it as small as possible for
    the above items.  I have a small backyard and do not want it
    to overwhelm (or look like it does) the yard.
    
    I'm not sure on materials but am considering:
    
    2 x 10' for bottom (should I use pressure treated or should I
                        treat the wood.  It may get some wetness
                        for snow buildup).
    3/4" plywood fooring.
    2 x 4" for framing.
    1/2" plywood for walls and roof.
    roof??  can I get premade roof frames (I think they are called
                                           trusses?).
    cinder blocks for shed to sit on.
    
    I don't want windows but will put little vents at top on sides.
    
    Want something simple for exterior finish.  Was thinking of barn
    board.  Would like to put cedar shingles but that is to much work.
    
    Do I have to have this shed so many feet from boundaries (set back?).
    
    Any comments would be much appreciated.  Mark.      
    
    
    

    .0 
    Mark thanks for asking these questions. I am in the same shoes,
    I would like to know to know if anyone has some good plans to
    share. Thank you.
    
    
    Tat

    Look at note 123.
    BC
    

     I've built a couple of sheds and here are some of the things I've
    learned doing it. 
    
    	1. 2X8's are all you need for floor joists up to 12' span.
    
    	2. DEFINITELY make the shed BIGGER than you think it needs to
    		be. I guarantee you'll fill it no matter how big you
    		make it!
    
    	3. 2X4's  16" OC are plenty for the roof unless they need to be longer
    		than about 10'. It's not worth getting any kind of
    		ready-made trusses, it's easy to make the rafters and
    		you'll save MONEY.
    
    	4. If you use plywood on the outside and then add vertical strips
    		of wood it looks like board-and-batten but is faster
    		and cheaper to install.
    
    	5. If you're going to keep anything of value in your shed;
    		don't put in windows for people to see and break through.
    		You can however put in some fiberglass panels

    re. 3, thanks for the advice.  How far apart should the floor
    joists be?
    
    I will figure out this weekend how big I can go.  I have a spot
    in the corner I will stake off.  Then measure the distance from
    the boundary and call the town for setback requirements/permits
    needed etc.
    
    Checked note 123.  Some good info in there.  WOuld like to keep
    this topic going, hear some fresher experiences.  Any recommend-
    ations on suppliers in the Milford MA, Rt. 495, Rt. 9 area?
    
    thanks again.  Mark.

    There are shed plans that you can buy in Somerville Lumber and some
    hardware store chains. They only cost a few dollars.

    Several years ago I bought aa shed kit fro P. F. O'Connor in Merrimack.
    The kit includede all the lumber, siding, and shingles as well as
    a complete cutting kit.
    
    The cutting kit came in a couple of styles and was adjustable for
    sheds of various sizes. 
    
    Driving by PFO. recently they still have the same sheds in the yard.
    
    
    They also deliver the complete kit.
    
    David.
    

      For floor joists, 2X8 16" OC is sufficient for 8 thru 12 foot
    span. You can use 2X4's for the wall studs up to 24" OC. I built
    my shed with 2X4 studs 16" OC because it is stronger, gives more
    places for nailing the sheathing and the difference in cost is small.
      I built my shed as if I were building a small house, just for
    the experience.
    
    					Kenny

    HOW MUCH SHOULD ONE BUDGET FOR THIS PROJECT - TO MAKE A MEDIUM SIZED
    NO FRILLS SHED?

     A reasonable estimate would be $3.50 a square foot. This can vary
    greatly in both directions depending on things like:
    
    			1. Stud spacing, 16" or 24" OC
    			2. Plywood thickness, 3/4 or 5/8 floor, 1/2
    				or 5/8 walls ect.
    			3. Foundation type, concrete blocks on grade,
    				or sono-tube posts below frost line.
    			4. Outside sheating type (shingles are much
    			        more expensive than T111 plywood).
    			5. Type and number of windows and doors, you
    				can make your own doors or buy them.
    			6. All DIY or kit or prebuilt.
    			7. Using rough-sawn wood from a mill vs. KD
    				from a lumber yard.
    			8. If you build it or pay someone to do it.
    
       You can make a list of things that you feel you want or can do to
    bring down the cost vs. others that you are willing to pay for.
                           
    
    					Kenny

    What I am probably going to do is:
    
    Build it all myself.  
    Use P.T. 2 x 8 on exterior floor with 
    regular 2 x 8 on interior floor planks.  
    3/4" plywood flooring
    2 x 4 for wall frames and roof rafters.
    1/2" plywood exterior walls.
    5/8" plywood roof.
    I going to have an attic with 5/8" flooring.
    5' door homemade (this will be (2) 2 1/2 foot doors open from center)
    no windows.
    roof vent on each side.
    regular house roof shingles.
    exterior siding probably this T111 stuff, painted white.
    overall dimensions still undecided but around
        8' x 10'  to a 10' x 12'.
    
    BTW Caldors has an 8' x 8' wood shed for $200.
    Floor kit is $80.  You have to supply the siding
    and paint or stain.
    
    Certainly would not be as nice as a DIY shed though.
    
    Mark.                                  
    

    I built a shed last summer in order to reclaim my garage. I wanted
    it large enought to hold all my toys, yet not kill the whole back
    yard. I made it 10x12, set it on cinder blocks (half sunk), and
    used full 8' 2x4's, 16" oc. for the walls. The peak was 5' above 
    the top plate, giving a total height of 13'. I'm glad I made it tall, 
    the "attic" holds all the patio furniture, kiddy pools, etc. I highly
    recommend T111, as it's fast, easy to work with, and looks good.
    BTW, I used the stuff with grooves on 4" centers--I think it looks
    better on a small (compared to a house) building.
    
    Advise: Make your own "trusses"--there's lots of plates, hangers,
    etc. to make it easier. You'll want to use a 2x6 for the header
    beam. If you decide to use T111, get aluminum screws (available
    in bulk) and a variable speed drill. Make several drawings and "build"
    it in your mind before you start. Shop the sales--Grossmans,
    Sommerville, Plywood Ranch. Don't think you have to buy it all at
    once.                                                         
    
    There's a lot of satisfaction in doing it yourself. Good luck!
    

    I'm planning on building a shed on the side of a slight hill,
    and I'm not sure what to do about the foundation.  The shed will
    be 12 by 12.
    
    What do people think? are 6 concrete blocks adequate for a foundation?
    If I use 6 sono tubes, can my building survive if they go only one
    foot into the ground?
    
    I'm trying to avoid unnecessary work in building the foundatin,
    but I want the shed to survive winters.

    Just build the shed up on blocks.  It's ok for a 12x12 shed to
    move around a little as the ground freezes and thaws.
    Besides, maybe you won't have to pay real estate taxes on it
    since it's not a 'permanent' structure.
    

    As a matter of fact, either do as the previous note suggests and
    let it float on concrete blocks (you will probably have to relevel/shim
    them every couple of years), -or- put in piers to below frost (3-4
    ft)  if you don't want to it move with frost.
    
    But what you DON'T want to do is something halfway.  I've seen some
    pretty silly looking decks/porches where the piers were sunk just
    a foot or so - some heaved and some didn't - racking the hell out
    of the structure.
    

    I recently completed a 1x16 shed and I put it on blocks. I've built
    a number of sheds in my day and they were all supported by blocks
    with no major ill effects. I would make one recommendation, and
    that is if you choose to install sona tubes that are not below the
    frost line you should check out the type of soil there being installed
    in. For example, if the soil is sandy or mostly gravel, in other
    words, well drained, you may get away with shallow sona tube
    installation because the soil will be less likily to retain water,
    which causes heaving during the freeze thaw cycles. On the other
    hand, if your soil is poorly drained, has a shallow hard pan layer,
    or has a high fines or clay content, your heave like crazy.
    Consequently sona tubes installed in these soils must be well below
    the frost lines. If it were me I'd just use cement or multiple patio
    blocks (do not use cinder blocks because they may fail). Good luck!
    

    ref. -.1
     By the way, I should of said a 10x16 shed ......

>        I have a question.  If you put shed on the block, how do you hold
>    it down against the wind?  If the shed doesn't have deep foundation,
>    it will be blow away easily especially it does not contain heavy
>    things.  Do you think I should worry about this?

    On Mt Washington they strap 10" thick chains to the frame of the
    building and bolt them right into the bedrock.  That works pretty
    well. 
    If you won't be locating your shed on top of Mt Washington, you
    might not have to do that.
    Actually, unless you're building your shed out of balsa you don't
    have to worry about winds.  Your shed won't be going anywhere.
    

    
    Thanks for the answer.  I know it was a dumb question.
    But I came from Taiwan.  There are a lot of hurricanes there
    every year.  A put-on shed there certainly will be blown away.
    
    I guess we are safe here in MA - no hurricane, unless ...

    Just for your info...
    Hurricanes in New England are an important part of the meteorological
    scene.
    The hurricane in 1938 was a whopper.
    There were significant hurricanes in 1944 and 1954 also. (i will
    never forget walking on Mass Avenue in Cambridge and seeing a LIVE
    power line bouncing up and down the street like a gigantic
    schizophrenic king cobra.)
    There have been at least 1/2 dozen hurricanes in the last 3 decades
    (probably a lot more) with winds exceeding 100 mph.
    Furthermore, the blizzard of 1978 -the one that closed eastern
    Massachusetts for a week and got the then Gov. Dukakis on national
    t.v.) would have been a hurricane if it had happened in the summer.
    
    
    				herb
    
    

    What's the difference between paving brick and the bricks in 
    my chimney?  
    Also, what are the bricks called that have a beveled edge?
    There's a brand called Boston Colonial Pavers which have this edge.
    Anybody used these, or know a good place to get them?
    

    Paving bricks have been baked longer so they are less porous.
    Fireplace bricks if used outside will absorb water, which will freeze
    in the winter, and slowly self destruct.  Pavers are much more weather
    resistant.

    Boston Colonial Pavers are cement bricks manufactured by Ideal Concrete
    Block Company in Westford, Ma.  They come in two shades - one is
    called Autumn something and is mostly rusts and browns and the other
    shade is called Boston something and looks more like regular red
    clay bricks.  I got a price about 2 months ago - off the top of
    my head I think they were $0.32 apiece.  We are thinking about using
    them for a front walk that we are going to lay next month.
    
    Carol
    



    

 >          -< Boston Colonial Pavers >-
    
    Hi Carol,
    Thanks for the information.  I bought them today. They come in
    5 colors.  I got 'Beacon Hill'.  
    They were $.39 each.

    Dave

> with winds exceeding 100 mph.

Depends. On the coast, it's bad. The farther inland you are, the less you need
to worry about it.

    Re: .30
    I thought that I heard on "Hometime" (PBS series) that regular
    bricks cannot be tamped down with a compactor and that paving bricks
    could be due to the fact that they are made out of a more durable
    material. I think that this would make a major difference in the
    quality of the finished walkway.
    

greetings
    
Hopefully someone out there can point me in the right direction/offer
a suggestion.
My problem is a sunken sidewalk. It has sunk at angle that leaves it
level with one ajoining sidewalk and about 2-3" below the other ajoining
walk. It's town property but all I get is a run around when i try to
get them to come out and repair it..
I've tried to pry it up from my lawn side to no avail....I've been told
that if i try to patch it with concrete the new concrete will just crack...
I've seen "levelling concrete" mentioned in prior notes for basement 
floors. 
    
Will this stuff work outdoors? 

Or is the only solution to break up the sunken walk and pour a new one?

thanx paul

    
    	The problem with patching the concrete in this situation would
    be that you would have to feather the new stuff to make a nice match
    to the high point of the old walk.  The concrete would be so thin
    that it would have virtually no strength, hence resulting cracks
    and breaks in the patch.  If it is possible to chip up the high
    point to allow more concrete and stronger bond you might do better.
    The city might not like you tearing up their property though.

    
    +-------+
    |       |                  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    |  old  |               xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    |  pool |             xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    |       |           xxxxxxxxxxx new pool xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    |       |           xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    +-------+            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
                            xxxxxxxxxx        xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
                              xxxxxx            xxxxxxxxxx

    OK, all you creative-type DIYers.  This is a bird's-eye view of
    part of my back yard.  It's a gentle hill sloping down toward the
    top of the screen (away from the house which is below the bottom
    of the screen).
    
    There's an old 10x20 swimming pool and we'll be putting in a new
    20x40 gunite pool next to it.  At first I thought of decking over
    the old pool and eventually building a building for storage of
    lawnmowers, furniture, etc.  Then I was told that just filling it
    in with dirt and laying a concrete floor would be cheaper that decking
    it with PT wood.
    
    Last night a freind of mine had a great idea:  dig out the back
    end of the old pool (since the ground slopes down and that end was
    backfilled, if I remove the backfill then the whole wall away from
    the house will be exposed entirely) and use it for a cellar-type
    of thing where I could park my mower, etc. and have the whole 10x20
    building above available for storage, cabana, etc.
    
    I don't know why I didn't think of that but given the background,
    I'm hereby soliciting neat ideas (and don't-forget-to's) from you
    people.
    
    Pete

    
    	What is the old pool made out of?  Gunite? Concrete?  What is
    the depth of the old pool, especially on the back side?

    sorry i'm so late in the update...
    
    my shed/garage came out simply wonderful, thanks to the tips i
    picked up in this note.  i used the j-bolt idea, inserted when i
    poured the slab.  i bolted pt lumber to that, and framed from
    that point just like a 'real' house.
    
    the shed made it through the winter and recent storms with no
    problem.  someday i may even finish it (eaves and moldings, no
    big deal).
    
    one lesson - no matter how big you make it, it's never big enough.
    
    it cost me less than $1800 to build the entire thing, that's including
    peastone base, 2x12 home made forms, bobcat rental, 4 yards of concrete
    delivered, framing, sheathing, t111, roof shingles, paint, garage
    door and hardware, and beer for the help.
    
    it took me 1/2 day to dig the hole, 1/2 day to build the forms.
    it took myself and 2 others 1/2 day to work the concrete.
    it took myself and 1 other 1 day to cut and frame the walls, the
    roof, and sheath the roof and put t111 on the walls.
    it took me 1 day to paint it, 1 day to shingle it, and 1/2 day to
    frame and install the garage door.
    
    i estimate it will take about another day for the moldings and eaves.
    
    thats roughly 6 days of work for myself, and 2 days of help with
    the heavy stuff.  not too bad, considering...
    
    a friend likes it and wants one just like it.  he called a couple
    of builders, and the minimum quote he got was $10,000, for the slab
    and complete structure.  so i saved $8200 for 8 days of work.  hmmm,
    at over $1000 per day, anybody want a shed built?
    
    my friend is building at indian meadows complex in northboro.  the
    building inspector would prefer a frost walled foundation, but would
    accept a monolithic slab.  i assume mine is on a monolithic slab
    (one piece), but could somebody confirm that.  also, is anybody
    familiar with indian meadows?  any reason, like maybe it was a filled
    in swamp, that he should go with a frost walled foundation instead
    of a slab?
    
    thanks again for all the help,
    
    bs

    The old pool was poured concrete to a depth of about 4'.  Then 3
    to 4 courses of block was added all around to make the depth about
    6-7'.

 Re .-1 (Boston Colonial Pavers)
    
 �   They were $.39 each.
    
    Hmmmm.....  G. V. Moore's here in Littleton has them "on sale" for
    49� each.  I guess it costs a lot to ship them the 3 miles from Ideal
    Block in Westford to Moore's!
    
    (:>

I would like to do a brick/stone dust walk way.  It's relatively small,
so I don't anticipate needing a lot of stone dust.  Questions:

1. What units is (are?) stonedust sold in.  If it's weight, how do you
   translate from volume to weight?

2. Can you get stone dust in small quantities (e.g. large garbage pails) and
   pick it up yourself without having a pickup?  From prices I've seen in 
   here, it looks like the delivery charge would cost more than the stone 
   dust, if they would even deliver such a small amount.

3. How do you estimate how much you need?

Clay

    
    	When I called my local sand and gravel, they said it was sold
    by the ton, and each ton = apprx. 1 1/2 yards.  (Thats' cubic yards)
    Yes, you can get it by the bucket, in Henniker anyway, but I don't
    know how much they would charge you.  It's only $7 per ton so I
    wouldn't think a couple of buckets would cost that much. 

    Stonedust is free from Keating in Lunenburg, Mass.
    
    Just show up with a pickup truck, a garbage can and a shovel.
    Go in the office and they'll direct you to the pile.
    

    To figure out how much you need, multiply the length of the walk
    times the width times the depth.  If all measurements are in feet,
    you'll end up with the volume in cubic feet.  Divide this by 27
    to get cubic yards.
    
    Length=30 feet
    With  = 3 feet
    Depth=0.5 feet (6 inches)
    
    30*3*0.5=45 cubic feet or 1.67 yards
    
    Bob

    We're finishing up on having our new house built (we're the contractors) and
our "yard" is a mess - mostly sand and mud.  Final plans (next spring) call for
a mud-room to be added off the back door.  Until then, we're looking for ideas
on how to keep the dirt OUTside.
    The existing back-door entrance (main entrance) has a quickie three-step
down to ... mush.  This will, hopefully, last until mud-room construction.
    Any ideas on a quick-and-not-dirty, easy-to-make, temporary walkway that we
can sweep-shovel and keep reasonably clean?

>    Any ideas on a quick-and-not-dirty, easy-to-make, temporary walkway that we
>    can sweep-shovel and keep reasonably clean?

	Any place nearby where you can get some used pallets?  Seems like they
 would be ideal to lay out as a temporary walkway.  The type with the slats
 close together would naturally be preferable (so little feet wouldn't get 
 stuck!) but if the spaces are too big you could fill them in with pieces from 
 a "parts pallet".

							--Mike

    
    What I have done is rip sheets of plywood in half and nail 2x4's
    to the edge of the plywood.
    
    
    			===========================
    			| |			| |
    			| |			| |
			---			---
    
    Phil    

    re: .2
    
    I agree the plywood/2x4's is the way to go.  We had this type of
    walk for almost a year and a half - got us through two winters.
    It keeps you feet out of the mud and it also is a snap to shovel
    in the winter - just make sure you hammer the nails down flat!
    
    You will probably want to add some cross braces to the diagram shown
    in .2.  We, unfortunately, didn't have the materials on hand to
    make the walk way and had to go out and buy the plywood and the
    2x4's (had asked for 2x3's, but the lowest grade of two by fours
    were cheaper) the "temporay" walk ended up costing us $70.  After
    the first winter we were convinced that it was one of the best $70
    we'd spent!  (May want to add that our walk was also about 30-40'
    long!)
    
    Kathy

We had to do something similar last winter, and since I had a pile of sand, 
some gravel, and a couple of bags of concrete handy, I made a concrete walk.
You don't have to pour it very thick, 1�-2" will do fine for a winter or so.
One wheelbarrow load would do about 5'.  We only had about 20' to do, so it 
only took 4 loads.  I have no idea how much it would cost to buy Sakrete.  One 
thing if you do this - trowel the surface smooth!  I just tamped it smooth, and 
while it was fine for walking/sweeping, shoveling it was a pain - the shovel 
sticks on even very small bumps.

If you have a rototiller, you could try making earthcrete.  Just buy a bag of 
concrete mix (just the powder, not Sakrete), pour it out where you want the 
walk, till it in, smooth it out, and water it.  It sets up nearly as hard as 
concrete, and it's cheaper and easier.

Paul

re: .4  I would think that concrete would be a pain to have to remove... but 
        then again... I've never tried it... 8-)

I agree with the plywood method... but if available, you may consider concrete
blocks instead of 2x4's.   Seems like this would give more suppport, but it 
will take more effort to secure the wood to the blocks, than to the 2x4's.

Bob

    Re:  plywood method.  I'd thought of just throwing some plywood down on
the ground (raising it with 2x4s sounds better).  But wouldn't it be rather
slippery?  And any method I can think of to un-slippery it would ruin the
ease-of-snow-shoveling benefit.
    Sounds like the best/easiest/cheapest of the clean ways of doing it, tho.

    
    Nope.  It's not slippery at all.  But I guess that's kind of
    subjective.  Drilling a few holes for traction might help if
    you really needed it.
    
    Phil

    It's not really that slippery, especially after it has weatherd for a
    bit. When I did mine, I had some scraps of T-111 which made an
    excellent non-slip surface. 
    
    Charly

    I guess all things are relative..........I found that the plywood
    could be slippery, especially when there was a light frost on the
    ground.  But then again I thought our new brick walk way was slippery
    this morning. 
    
    My experience was that the walk way was slippery - ours was in the
    shade most of the day, for most of its lenght - but no more slippery
    than other walks I've been on.  If any water settles on the wood
    ice will form and it will be slippery.  One solution, or a preventative
    step, might be to use three 2 X 4's one running down the middle,
    and to add a piece of strapping to the top of the center 2 x 4 to
    bow the walk slightly so that water would flow off to the sides.
    Not sure if it would work but it might be worth a try and it wouldn't
    cause any shoveling problems.
    
    Kathy - maybe it's the difference in the soles on a man's shoe
            vs. a woman's shoe, also it could be the higher heels! 8^)

We have two estimates for installing about 600 sq. ft. of brick walkways
and encountered the ususal:  two estimates with wildly differing price,
in this case $3500 vs. $5400.  Both would use Boston Pavers and stonedust,
the only other big difference seemed to be in the base:  one would dig 
down 'at least 4", then a stonedust base, compact that, lay the bricks,
then brush stonedust across the top'; the second would dig down 'at least
12", followed by a base of 8-10" of crushed bank run, compact that and 
put down 1" of stonedust followed by the bricks and stonedust on top'.

The second estimate sounds more thorough and is priced to match, but is
it really necessary?  Are we paying for a walk that will outlive the
house, never mind outliving us?  We don't want a shoddy job but then
again we aren't independently wealthy and would prefer to spend no more
than we need.

Can anyone advise as to whether the cheaper estimate is too cheap and
would only result in problems in the next few years?


Thanks for any help, 

Jan

    At 600 sq' and approx. 5 bricks/sq' you'll need 3000 bricks. And
    @ .50/brick that is $1500. I assumed .50 but you may pay more or
    less depending where you live and whom you buy from. The stone dust
    cost was in here somewhere and I can't remember the cost. Even so
    the lower bid even sounds high. I was quoted $400 to install my
    walk which is approx. 300 sq'. I felt this was still too high since
    I am going to do it myself. He then said he did a job for 40 cents
    a square foot. A little arithmetic says thats $120 for the walk.
    He said it would take him a full day to lay the walk. This sounded
    a little quick also. For 3500-5400 you can put on a small addition.
    If you have the time and the patience and the stamina why not try
    it yourself. The places that sell the brick deliver for free. The
    stone dust might cost you $25-$50 for delivery. The tools you need
    aren't that expensive either. 
    
    Somewhere in the notes file there is a list of items to buy and
    steps for installing the walk.
    
    /Jay

Re: < Note 1191.37 by RGB::SWEENEY >
                               -< <sounds high> >-


Thanks for the advice Jay, I always think these quotes sound too high!
But do-it-yourself isn't real attractive, my husband and I have decided 
there is a lot of work we really don't WANT to do ourselves (we figure
we work hard to make enough money to pay someone else to do it).  We
are still finishing off a basement room and painting the window/door
trim in a two room addition, and now we're into vegetable gardening (oops,
wrong notesfile).

What I was trying to find out is what sort of base is really needed/
recommended for the New England area; excavating 12" with 8-10" of
base sounded like overkill, but then again only 4" sounded skimpy.

Anyone care to offer advice?  I'll try to look for one of those Sunset
books on walkways but I welcome any expert advice I can get from this
file!


Jan

Dig down where the walk will be and see what is there.  When you come across 
hard-packed subsoil you've probably gone deep enough.  Just make sure you go 
through all the topsoil.  Given that you hit subsoil, 4" should be plenty - 6"
is the amount usually used for driveways, which have much more weight on them,
and which have much softer asphalt covering them.   12" is outrageous overkill- 
a lot of roads are built without that much base.

Paul

    I agree with Paul.  I put in a brick walk 5 years ago using stone dust
    and just removing the topsoil.  There has been no discernable heaving,
    and if there were, it would be easy enough to correct.
    
    Although the price might seem high, there is a heck of a lot of back
    breaking labor involved.  Digging and removing 10 yards of dirt,
    bringing in tons of stonedust and bricks.  The average keyboard jockey
    will be pretty tired and sore after a job that size.  I know I was 8-).
    
    Bob

    I know everyone leans toward wood but does anyone know a place to
    get a good deal on an 8x10 metal shed in the Belmont/Cambridge/Waltham
    area?
    
    Thanks,
    
    KC

    Although this doesn't address the latest query re. metal sheds,
    I thought I'd share the info for anyone who may be considering purchase
    of a wooden shed.
    
    There's a place called Custom Built Utility Houses on Rt. 101A in
    Amherst, NH (phone 603-882-4062, Douglas Hall & Steven Douglas,
    proprietors.)
    
    I've been driving by this place for several years admiring the sheds
    on the property. Now that I have my own home and find myself needing
    a shed, I finally stopped by yesterday for some info.
    
    I spent some time examining the sheds on the lot and chatting with
    the owner about their construction. While I'm no expert on
    construction, I must say that these appear to be extremely well
    built. They are made of pine, have 2x6 flooring, asphalt roof shingles,
    one window, a flower box, shutters, and a wide door equipped with
    rust-proof hardware and a padlock hasp.
    
    Ramps and aluminum vents can be added for a nominal fee.
    
    The cost includes delivery within 10 miles ($1.00/mile after that),
    set-up on cinder blocks, and leveling. All in all, a decent deal
    considering the pricing. Since the price list I have is quite
    extensive, I'll list the prices for the standard models only. Also
    available are salt box styles for slightly more $.
    
    size:           price:            extras:

    6x8             $575.00           window: $40.00
    6x10            $720.00           door: $40.00
    6x12            $865.00           ramp: $35.00
    6x14            $1000.00          double ramp: $55.00
    6x16            $1150.00          vents: $15.00 per pair
    
    7x8             $670.00
    7x10            $840.00
    7x12            $1000.00
    7x14            $1175.00
    7x16            $1345.00
    
    8x8             $765.00
    8x10            $960.00
    8x12            $1150.00
    8x14            $1345.00
    8x16            $1535.00
    
    10x10           $1300.00
    10x12           $1560.00
    10x14           $1890.00
    10x16           $2160.00
    
    They told me that there's presently about a 3-week lead time required
    as they are swamped with orders. Everything on their lot was sold.
    I don't know how far they'll deliver, but they had a 10x16 loaded
    on their truck while I was there that was on its way to Francestown,
    NH.
    
    They're worth checking out. They build a nice shed.     
    

    About a year ago I built a 8x12 wood shed that included one window and
    double front doors. Contruction was 2x6 floor joist and roof rafters
    (16" OC), 3/4" CDX floor decking, 1/2" CDX roof sheathing, tar paper
    and asphalt roof shingles, 2x4 wall construction (16" OC), and T-111 3/8
    siding. All framing lumber was construction grade KD except the
    floor joists which were PT. Total cost for DIY was $550 and this
    is much more rugged than what I had inspected as "pre-built" for
    delivery.
    
    My only problem was that I pulled a building permit with the town
    of Acton, and they required poured concrete footing 4' below grade
    with bolt anchors to tie into rim joist corner-blocking.  They didn't
    want the shed to blow away in a hurricane or tornadoe -)-)-).
    
    BTW, they would have required the same to pull a permit for a delivered
    prebuilt; and most suppliers delivering to Acton will hold the home
    owner responsible for securing permits and set-up requirements.

    re .11
    
    Permits and footing seem to be a very random function of the town
    you are in.  Westford (MA) only requires a permit if a shed is greater
    than 100 sq. ft. in area OR has a permanent foundation.  So depending
    on the town, you may be able to skip the permit and just use a gravel
    pad base.  Saves a bit more money and time.  (Assuming no tornadoes.)
    
    /Dave

    The condition in my city (Milford, CT) was that the shed not be
    attached to the house.  No attachment -> No permit.
    
    
    Serv
    

    I've been thinking along the lines of building a 12 X 12 shed out of
    blocks, with a stucco finish - It's not in a real visible area, but I'd
    still like it to look decent, on the other hand, I want something
    that's going to stand up with a minimum of maintenance.  Any opinions
    on using blocks for this application?

    I would think that you'd need a standard house type foundation for
    a structure like that. Any movement and your block mortar will crack.
    Certainly will resist the carpenter ants.....and you could convert
    it to a smoker with no problem!!!

    Another consideration is that I'm toying with the idea of doing some
    brickwork - fence posts, and possibly a wall, and this seems like a
    non-critical way to develop/assess my masonry skills.  Thanks for the
    reply.
    						joe

I'm planning an addition for my house.  Part of the work to be done involves 
taking down a screened porch.  My question is, is it ok to use the old joists
and decking to build a shed that will NOT be part of the existing house or
addition.  The shed would initially be used as a combination children's 
playhouse/tool storage shed (with a wall between, of course).  In later years,
the inside wall would come down, creating more storage).  

btw. I have heard, in the past, not to use old wood for new construction, 
because of "don't mix old dry wood with new relatively wet wood", "old wood
is difficult to nail", etc.  Of course, for the shed, I would have to add new
wood (plywood, siding, roofing, etc.)

ps.

I may eventually decide to spend the extra money to have the old porch put in a
dumpster, depending on (please pick one):

  	A. My sudden realization that I don't want to pull out nails out of 
	old wood, or be careful about demolition.  

	B. I don't want to build the shed.

	C. I find out its really not that expensive to carry it away.

	D. All of the above.

    You have pointed out the major drawbacks.  
    
    - The extra effort during demolition to save as much as possible.
    - Pulling all the nails, screws, etc.
    - Destroying saw blades when you hit the nails you missed.
    - The old wood is bug ridden.
    - The old wood is dry rotted.
    - The old wood is dry rotted and bug ridden with hidden nails which
    destroy saw blades.
    - The bugs or dry rot "infect" the new lumber.
    
    During the demolition stage, look closely at the lumber as you remove
    it.  Have at least one person dedicated to pulling all the nails at the
    time you are taking it apart.  You will very soon determine if the wood
    is worthwhile to save (bugs, rot, warped, etc.) and the amount of labor
    to remove the nails.  That way you can either continue to save the wood
    or deciede not to and make the demolition easier.

    Depends on how much your time is worth to you, how good the used
    lumber is, and how good you want the shed to be.  I'd say sure,
    give it a try.  If you pull the nails as you're going, and demolish
    with that in mind, it takes a little longer but it's not all that
    bad.  Even if you eventually decide to throw the wood out, it will
    be safer to handle in the meantime.
    My living room is what I think is a recycled post and beam barn, the
    "back hall" addition off the kitchen is built of recycled lumber, and
    even part of the main house is built of recycled lumber.  It was a
    very common practice in earlier days.
    
    Save a tree - recycle a board!  And save money, too.
    

      If  the  wood  is  rotted  or has insects then by all means do NOT
      re-use it.  Otherwise, if its the right size and not  mechanically
      damaged  it  is  perfectly all right to use it.  Yes, you'll spend
      some extra time sorting it out and pulling nails,  but  you'll  be
      saving  the  cost of new wood AND the cost of disposing of the old
      wood, so re-use is economically desirable.
      
      Yes, old wood has fully dried and shrunk while new wood is wet and
      will likely shrink.  However, you  can  deal  with  this  problem.
      First,  wood  shrinks  across  the  grain; there is no appreciably
      shrinkage lengthwise.   So  you  can  mix  old  and  new  wood  in
      situations  where  only  length  and  not  thickness  is critical.
      However, if you want flat walls and smooth floors you  should  not
      mix new and old studs/joists in the same section of wall/floor.
      
      Personally I'm a real scrounge at things like this. In our ~5 year
      old post and beam home at least 1/2 and maybe as much as 2/3rds of
      the  interior  walls are framed with re-used lumber that was first
      used for bracing of the Post and Beam frame.  We even ripped  down
      about  20  lengths  of  2x6 structural decking to make 2x4s.  As I
      said, our labor saved material, delivery and disposal  costs.   It
      was well worth it!

    Thanks.  Assuming the wood is good, it's just a matter of me deciding
    the tradeoffs between time involved to recycle versus (cost of disposal
    plus cost of replacement wood).
    
    

    To add to an old topic now that I'm going to be building a shed:
    I plan to make an 8'x8' shed. I only have a snowthrower and lawn mower
    to store as well as a few rakes. I plan to use PT 2x4's for the floor
    joists and 5/8 or 3/4 plywood for the flooring. What would be the best
    thing to finish the floor with to help it beat the snow and wet grass
    that will inevitably be dragged in? I was thinking either polyurethane 
    or deck paint, but of course I don't want a slippery surface.
    
    Thanks.

    I went to get some exterior grade plywood a while back and what they
    had available was PRESSURE TREATED plywood!  The same green color and
    health risk warnings.  Since my project was going to have ground
    contact and but limited protection from the elements, (a shelf/floor
    system for the crawl space), I went for it.  

    Well, its been in over a year with no problems.  I took some precautions
    though.  I put down 4 mil plastic between the dirt and the P.T. 2x
    framing.  None of it gets any direct water or moisture other than what
    is left on my garden tools and the natural moisture in the crawl space.

    I also have a shed which has no floor and a large hole in the roof. 
    All the water from the back yard is funneled into the doorway because
    of the grading.  Don't ask.  It was on the property when I bought I
    the house and it would cost more to tear it down and throw it away. I
    don't have the money/time to upgrade it to a more usable state.  I
    built a two tier shelf for the shed from P.T. 2x framing and 1 sheet of
    P.T. plywood ripped lengthwise.  It has been out in the backyard for
    about a year also through the rainy season with water up and over the
    bottom shelf.  No separation of layers, and no visible rot.  Sits on
    the ground.

    To answer you question.  I would use an exterior grade plywood or P.T.
    plywood.  No need to put a finish on it other than Thompson's Water
    seal if you feel you must put a finish on it.

    Re .13
    Somehow using 2x4's for floor joists and plywood for the
    flooring seems to be skimping on the floor, in my opinion.
    I'd suggest using at least 2x6's for the joists.  For the
    floor I suggest 1" pine boards, preferably 2".
    
    When we had our shed built I specified 2" pine boards for
    the floor, and 2x6's for the joists. The pine boards were
    just roughcut from our local lumber mill, but I had them
    planed down on one side.  I stained the floor with a good
    deck preservative.
    
    Consider that the floor is probably going to take most of the
    punishment.  Not only will you be walking on it and tracking
    in snow and grass, but its nearness to the ground will subject
    it to dampness.  Consider the inevitable repairs.  Walls are
    not particularily difficult to fix, but floors can be very
    inconvenient and difficult to repair.  I'd take care now to
    avoid having to make repairs later, so beef up the floor.

I have a similar need.  I have a shed that will be used to store grain and hay
for my fiance's horse.  I was thinking of putting down PT 2x4 with some kind
of boards across.  The plywood idea sounds interesting.  My issues are that
I don't want rats, which I would get if the food was in contact with the dirt.
I want to be able to put the horse in here if ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY.  I don't
plan on using it for a stable, but will in emergencies.

So, would PT 2x4 with maybe PT 1x4 or 1x6 do the trick?

Ed..

    
    2x6's with 3/4" PT plywood is more then good enough for a shed. It will
    probably last forever. And you don't have to worry about insects or
    rats, because the PT wood will keep them out.
    
    Mike
    

    Our shed is on cinder blocks, with 2x4s (I'm pretty sure), then with a 
    plywood floor, and houses 2 motorcycles  as well as the ordinary 'shed
    equipment' (lawnmower,snowblower,bikes etc). We used a good coat of
    deck stain on the floor, and now (5 years later), it's wanting another
    coat.  We were also concerned about it being slippery, but it really
    hasn't been a problem (not like you're moving around a lot in the shed
    anyway), and the deck paint has kept the wood in GREAT shape.  The
    cinder blocks accomplish 2 things .... keeps the shed off of the ground
    so that we don't have to worry about any type of wood-rot, and ALSO, as
    a technicality, makes the shed be a non-permanent structure, so we
    didn't need to get a building permit.  and believe it or not, we really
    ARE planning on moving it when we can afford to build a garage.
    
    If you want more details, I can check it out/ask hubby and let you
    know.
    
    Patty
    
    

    My brother-in-law just finished an 8x12 shed for us. We used 2x8 PT for
    the joists and laid them on concrete patio blocks. The floor is 3/4
    plywood and we covered that with linoleum. Yes, linoleum. It keeps the
    floor clean and dry and it's attractive. Of course, I don't know what
    the winter's cold will do to the linoleum but since we won't be using
    the shed much in the winter, I'm not too concerned. 
    
    Mike 

    Don't forget that if you recycle the wood, you might actually be saving
    a tree. I think that we Americans take too much for granted. Why spend
    the time saving and re-using the old when you can just buy new? Its a
    a pretty sad attitude, but, more and more of us are going for the easy
    way out while our landfills are getting fuller and fuller.
    			  I say
   			 RECYCLE!!!
                         

    Well, I finally got rid of the metal eyesore from my backyard last
    weekend.  45 mintes with a sledge hammer and I had a nice neat stack of
    rusted metal siding and a good site to build a shed. ;^)
    
    I deceided to built my own 12x12 wooden shed from plans I developed in
    my head.  Dangerous but so far things are working out fairly well. 
    Here's how I built my foundation.
    
    Dug nine holes, eight around the perimeter and 1 in the center, 6
    inches across and 18 inches deep.  Filled each with concrete and set a
    4x4 pressure treated post with a 3/8 inch x 6 inch bolt in the end. 
    The bolt extends out of the end of the post about 3 inches.  The post
    was set on to the concrete while it was wet so that the bolt is in the
    concrete and the post rests on top of the footing.  The concrete was
    sloped away from the post to help water runnoff.
    
    I built a frame of 2x8 by 12 ft long pressure treated boards.  Used
    temporary supports to support the frame until I got it level.  Drilled
    holes and used 1/2 inch carriage bolts to secure the joists to the 4x4
    posts.  Each post is at a corner or the junction of two joists, so I
    put 2 bolts in each post, perpendicular to each other.  This helps to
    alleviate racking and wopple.
    
    To eliminate bounce in the floor, the joists are set up such that I
    have 4 around the perimeter, band joists, and 1 running down the
    center.  Then 6 ft joist hang from the band joist and the center
    "beam".  All joists are end nailed and use joist hangers.  The center
    beam is attached to the center 4x4 post as described above, end nailed
    and hung on joist hangers.  I then covered the joist system with
    pressure treated 5/8 plywood.  
    
    The walls and the roof will be framed just like a house using 2x4.  To
    make life easier, I am I am cutting the wall studs to 6 ft.  With a 2x4
    above and below, that will make the interior height 6 ft. 3 in. at the
    outer edges. The center will rise to 8 ft.  This will allow me to use
    T-111 siding while only having to cut the slope of the roof line.  I
    plan on using 2x4's for collar ties which I can later use as a shelf
    for lumber storage.
    
    The roof will be shingled with fiberglass shingles and a ridge vent. 
    The rafters will be standard 2x4 8ft long.  This will give me about a
    15-20 inch overhang.  The overhang will allow me to install continous
    soffit venting as well as reduce splash up on the bottom of the shed by
    moving the runoff from the roof farther away from the walls.  
    
    I have a lot of trees and undergrowth in the area I am building the shed
    so plan on staining it a medium brown with tan shingles.  The lighter
    color shingles will help reflect the sun in the summer and hopefully
    keep it a tad bit cooler.  For fun and to allow naturall light into the
    shed/workshop, I am putting two 2x2 ft skylights on one side of the roof
    which gets all the sunlight.  I plan on painting the underside of the
    plywood roof white to help make it brighter and reflect the light.
    
    Since the plan is to use it as a storage shed and part-time workshop, I
    will be running electricity out to it.  I figure since I have to dig a
    ditch the 120 ft to the shed anyway for the electricity, might as well
    run a water pipe in the same ditch.  I figure I can use an extra spigot
    at that end of the yard and if I need to clean up paint brushes, etc.
    then I don't have to walk all the way back to the house.
    
    So far materials not includeing the ditch, electricity, or plumbing
    have run about $750.  The pre-fab sheds of about the same size cost
    about $480+ not including a foundation.  My foundation, I like to think
    of it as a deck with a building on top of it, cost me $250 of the $750. 
    For $20 more than a pre-fab, I am getting a custom wooden shed with
    skylights that I can say I built from scratch.  
    
    One of the my complaints about the metal/vinyal/pre-fab sheds are that
    "all dimeninsions are approximate".  In reality, a 8x10 is only 7'6" by
    9'6".  My 12x12 is 12x12.

    re .11
    
>    Dug nine holes, eight around the perimeter and 1 in the center, 6
>    inches across and 18 inches deep.  
    Not sure where you're located (ODIXIE, maybe the South?), but 18"
    won't cut in in New England.
    >Filled each with concrete and set a
>    4x4 pressure treated post with a 3/8 inch x 6 inch bolt in the end. 
>    The bolt extends out of the end of the post about 3 inches.  The post
>    was set on to the concrete while it was wet so that the bolt is in the
>    concrete and the post rests on top of the footing.
    I don't believe you want to sink or rest your posts on concrete.
    They'll draw moisture from the concrete, and eventually rot.
    
    John

    
      Just wanted to share some information with fellow noters on an
    alternate way to do walkways and patios etc. I had two walks and
    a patio done.
    
    It's called Stampcrete.It is poured concrete colored to your choice
    and stamped to look like brick, cobblestone etc.
    
    I have looked at walks and patios poured as long as 4 years ago and all
    showed little or no signs of wear and no cracking. My walks and patio 
    were done last month and look great.
    
    For the New England area the process is as follows;
    
    Dig down 6"
    Mix fiberglass mesh in 4000# test concrete ( Eliminates need for
    steel etc. to avoid cracking).
    Pour concrete.
    Trowel in color dye. to approx 1/4"-1/2" deep.
    When concrete starts to set stamp in desired pattern.
    Done.
    
    The contractor I used was from Hamelton, Mass. and did my house in
    Westford, Mass.
     
                             Bill

    Hi Bill,
      
    How does the price compare with a brick walkway?  I imagine it is
    far easier to maintain (and shovel).
    
    Donna

    
    Before doing Stampcrete I got numerous quotes to have brick put down. 
    The installed cost of Stampcrete was at least 50% less. 
    
    
    Installed Stampcrete was actually just a little more in
    price than doing the brick yourself. Depending on the size and difficulty 
    of the job, Stampcrete runs about $3-$5 sq. ft.  
    
    Because the final results look like brick or cobblestone, it has the same 
    irregularities and thus I suspect will be the same to shovel. I do believe 
    it will be far easier to maintain. No weeds, moss, loose sand between the 
    cracks to constantly bother with.  
    
    
      Bill

    Could you share the name and telephone number of the contractor?
    This looks like its what I am looking for.
    
    Thanks
    Bruce

    Re -1
    
    The guy that did my job is Kevin Mc'Guiness, Hea-Mat Construction Co.
    Hamilton, Mass. I'll get the phone # tonight and enter it tomorrow.
    My wife works with his sister so thats how I found about him and
    Stampcrete. Nice guy, fair and very consciencious.
    
    Bill

When you enter it, could you enter it as a reply to note 2007?

Thanks,
Paul

I took the roof off the porch yesterday.  I can save the rafters and ceiling 
joists.  I noticed what appears to be powder post beetle holes in 1 rafter, so
I'll inspect very carefully before using any of the wood indoors.  My carpenter
says I can reuse my 6x8 beam on the new porch, once he planes it down to 4x8.

As for taking the porch down myself, another carpenter gave me 800 good reasons
to do it myself.  And it's not too bad, especially since I don't have to make
any straight cuts.

    Good points in previous reply.
    
    Yes, I am located in the south, Atlanta Georgia.  Frost line is 8-12
    inches.  That means that I am at least 6 inches below frost line so
    should not any problem with frost heaves.
    
    Well the good news is that when the concrete cured it shrank or the 4x4
    rose.  Either way there is about a 1/4 inch gap between the concrete an
    the 4x4.  Hopefully that should reduce the tendency to wick water from
    the ground/concrete.  The 4x4 are pressure treated to .40 which is
    rated 25 years ground contact according to the label on the wood. 
    
    Worst case is that they rot and they need to be replaced.  The longest
    distance from the ground to the bottom of the joists is about 6-8
    inches.  I could dig out a little and put a few concrete blocks under
    to act as a foundation.  
    
    At least right now we don't plan on living in at this address for more
    than about 5 years.   I tried to design the structure for low cost to
    build, easy maintanence and long life.  25 years is short for a
    building but that is only the supports.  They can be replaced without
    too much trouble.

    I'm planning to fill in with stones a dug out & lined with p/t lumber 
    walkway leading to the front and side doors of my house.  The depth 
    I dug down (now w/ lumber border) is about six inches.  I plan to fill
    in, up to about 5 inches, with small rounded stones.  Next will be to put 
    down rectangular granite slabs as "stepping stones" w/ the small stones 
    in between.  A couple questions come up:
    
      1.  Is five inches of small stones enough (e.g. weeds, drainage, etc)?  
      Is it too much, unncessary cost?  Is there an optimum size/shape stone
      or gravel for walkways? (Again, I like the rounded, not crushed stone 
      look)
       
      2.  Is it okay to have soil (rather sandy/clay mixture) right below
      the stones?
    
      3. Any (small rounded) stone retailers in the Framingham/Boston West 
      area that are reasonable in cost and deliver?  My best guess (no
      calculations yet...I hope the dealer can help) is that I will need 
      approx. 3 or 4 sq. yards.
    
    Thanks, GCW
      

    5 inches of pea stone sounds like it would do the job just fine. But I
    would line the bottom of the walkway with "weed block" material first.
    Weed block is a brand name for a plastic type of extremely fine screen
    made for exactly what you are doing. I saw it on sale at a few places
    this weekend for $8.00 for a 3'by 50'roll. Not too expensive and works
    great. I've used it arround my house before with good results. 
    
      Sorry I can't help you with the stone. I've never priced it out but I
    would think that pea stone would be a bit more expensive than crushed
    stone.
    
                                               Take Care
                                                  GUY

    Wouldn't pavers sitting directly on stone be a bit unstable?
    
    John

    You're right (.2), pavers might be unstable on dry gravel/stone.  However,
    I'm using some pretty hefty granite slabs (approx. 3'x 1.5'x 3", about
    80-100 lbs each).  Once in place and surrounded by pebble stone, I don't
    think they will move much.  Any thoughts to the contrary? 

    Yes, that is large. However at 80-100 pounds, a person stepping on one
    end could easily cause the other end to rise, if the surface beneath
    could be shifted. Maybe I'm going overboard, but stone doesn't compact
    very well.
    I'd sink them in sand, leaving an inch or so of granite depth exposed.
    Then use your decorative stone as filler between the pieces. You'll
    get the look you want, and the stability of a nice compacted base.
    
    John

I don't like pebbles anywhere I have to shovel snow.  You may want to consider
this in your design.

Stan

    re .0
    I built a walk similar to what you describe and the first chance I get
    I'm going to redo it with pavers set in stone dust.  I used 4-5 inches
    of pea stone (approx. 3/8 dia) and set flag stones on the stone.  I did
    not use any weed block material and have not had a problem, but for the
    small amount of money, the weed block material seems like good
    insurance.
    
    Yes, the flagstone do move around some, but that is not the major problem. 
    The pea stone ends up everywhere when I shovel snow in the winter and
    when the dog runs across the walk.  It's a major pain.  If you decide to 
    go with this approach, I would advise making the gaps between your paving 
    stones very small (ie minimize exposed pea stone) or go with a heavier, 
    bigger diameter stone than pea stone.

    RE .6
    
    Your problems with the pea stones (getting all over the place!) is 
    exactly why I (4200.0) went with a larger stone (approx. 3/4").  As 
    a matter of fact, the boys at the gravel pit (EH Perkins in Hudson) 
    tried to convince me the pea stone is the way to go, (however, no 
    difference in price, approx.$17.50 per ton delivered...by far the best
    price I could find).  I kept mentioning my concern over the possibility 
    of the (pea) stones being constantly tracked into the house, kicked into 
    the driveway and garden, etc.  Ironically, Perkins had used the pea on
    its own grounds for a walkway and driveway.  Sure enough, although the
    pea packed nicely & looked smooth,  the stones were all over the near
    by paved road and the grass! 
    
    Although I won't have as easy a time "leveling" the granite slabs in
    the 3/4" stones (vs. 3/8" pea), they should stay put better.  Moreover, 
    I liked the look of the slightly larger stone. 
    
                                

    If you make your channel is deep enough between the granite slabs and the 
    PT wood guides then I suppose your large pea stones will stay in place
    provided they are a good inch below the stone and wood edges.
    
    When I moved into my house there was a fine 1/4 to 1/2 inch pea walkway
    with PT timbers for guides and 8 inches of stone dust for the base.
    The pea stones were a real pain in all seasons and did a number on
    womens heeled shoes.  What I am currently preparing to do in early 
    summer is to clear out the pea stone to the stone dust to about 3-4
    inches.  Pour concrete level to the wood edges and then before it
    sets, imbed some of the pea stone back into the top of the concrete until it
    is nearly flush.  This I believe will look nice, give a bit of extra
    traction in the winter and put the old pea stone to use.
    I should also say that I like stone walks but my timbers aren't
    sqare and I don't like the idea of sqaring them all up and then
    buying all the stone or bricks.  I am trying to do the 
    best job with what I have. 
    
    Any comments? 
    
    
    Cheers,
    Paul  

    I saw some professionals pouring a peastone sidewalk one time.  The
    peastone was the aggreate in the mix.  They poured the walk, leveled it
    and did all the typical finishing.  Once it has set up a bit, they used
    a hose and lightly sprayed the walkway with water washing away some of
    the concrete until the pestone was revealed.
    
    I don't see why you could not acheive the same effect by doing what you
    are proposing.  Pour a "normal" concrete base, apply a layer of
    peastone and push it in the concrete so that the top 1" or so is
    saturated with peastone and then lightly spraying the top to wash off
    the concrete revealing the peastone.
    

    RE: .9
    
    I had heard of that technique of spraying the walk to more clearly
    reveal the pea stone and am planning on trying it.
    I've seen some pool walkways like this but not any front door walkways.
    
    Someone also suggested installing rubber or wood expantion joints,
    across the path every 4-6', to help prevent cracking during winter freezes.
    
    Cheers,
    Paul
                                

    
     Just wanted to give an update on stampcrete. Last year I had my front
    walk, approx 70' long, several elevations, and a 18 X 20' patio done 
    with Red stampcrete. There are no cracks or flaws after this past New 
    England weather. It still looks great. I hope to be doing a 12' X 100' 
    driveway this fall.
    
    Stampcrete, by far, appears to have been a better and less expensive
    alternative to brick, patio block or cobblestone.
    
                                             Bill

    
    Has anyone had any experience with a thing called "Parrot plans" (I
    think that's the name)? What they are is cardboard overlays that you
    put over your materials to mark them for size and shape. I just saw
    them at HQ last night and was curious if anyone has ever done one of
    these before. I've never built anything in my life and was kind of
    hoping that this could help me get a new shed built at a reasonable
    cost. It looks like a gimmick though and I was hoping that you
    experienced DYI'ers could tell me if they are worth the $22.00 they
    charge for them. They even come with a materials list so you know
    exactly what you need to build your shed. The plans come for various
    shapes and sizes of sheds.
    
    Steve

	I am reshingling a leaky shed roof which is attached to the main house.
It has a very slight inclination (almost flat) and has vertical walls
with cedar shingles on 3 sides.

	It was recommended that I should consider roll roofing or membrane
roofing for the job as opposed to the other (existing) notched shingles.

	I found when stripping the existing shingles that three of the
sheathing boards (1x12x6) had rather large holes in them and had to
be replaced.  Also there was absolutely no flashing at the top of the
roof where joins the main house.

	I have the roll roofing cut to size and the felt underlayment.

	I am not sure how to go about flashing the three sides.  Should
I put the roof down and flash from under the cedar siding over the asphalt roof?
Or does the flashing go under the asphalt?

Should I use flashing shingles for the slant sides and continuous for
the top? or continuous through out?  What size flashing would be appropriate?

	What extra care should I take when flashing the corners?

	How do you remove the lowest course of Cedar shingles so that the
flashing can be attached to the house sheathing?

	Thanks for any help.  I am pretty new at this home maintenance stuff
but willing to learn.

George	                                  

	

    Basic rule when roofing: imagine a drop of water and figure
    out how to arrange everything so the water rolls off.
    
    If the roof pitch is very low, less than 1:4 or so, then roll roofing
    is definitely the way to go.
    
    On the sides, I'd put the flashing out over the roof.  If you can
    get a continuous strip in under the shingles on the sides, fine; if
    not, do overlapping pieces.  Same for across the top.  There's no
    magic way (that I know of) to get the flashing under the siding.
    You need only an inch or two up under the siding (the more the better,
    but you can get by with not much), so just work it up under as best
    you can.  Corners are a pain; I'd put the side flashing on first, then
    cover it with the flashing across the top, and put a small goop of
    roofing cement in the very corner.

   This is sort of a tangent to this topic, but I couldn't see
   starting a new topic, so here goes...
   
   I live in a place now that has a gravel driveway.  (Its not my
   house, so I won't be doing any major work to change things.)
   
   Anyway, as several people here have already noted, there is gravel
   all over the place in the lawn.  So here's my question - 
   
   Is there any relatively painless way to get gravel out of the lawn?
   I've been raking some of it out, but that is very time consuming..
   is there a better way?
   
   Thanks,
   - Tom

I've been designing a 20'x20' camp with a shed style roof (not peaked).  I need
some suggestions and or comments on the roof design.  The walls are 2x4 frame
with post and beam type support for the roof.  Note the following side view
diagram: 

       -
       -         -
        II       -        -    roof rafters 2x10
         |                -         -
         |                          -        -
         |                         II        -        -
Front    |                          |                 -       -
 of      |__________________________|________________________ -
Camp     |                          |                        |
         |                          |                        |
         |                          |                        |
      13'|4x4                    11'|4x4                     |
         |                          |                        |
         |                          |                        |
         |                          |                        |
         |                          |                        |
         |__________________________|________________________|
                              20'


II = 2-2x12s scabbed together for 20' beam.

In this design, the roof rafters must be about 23'.  I was thinking of scabbing
the 2x10 rafters to give me the 23' length and spacing them 24" apart instead of
16".  Any comments and/or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.  Sorry if
this diagram or description causes any confusion, I'd be glad to answer any
questions to clear it up.

		Thanks,

		  Dave

    
    
    	I would suggest a reversed pitch overhang in the front, that
    extends out 3-4 ft.   and another overhang at the back .  The one in
    front will help keep things clean(you can park wet and muddy
    cloths/boots there)  and the one in bak can be uded as a sort of
    'storage' area for things that you might want out of the
    wind/rain/ice/ect.. but don't want inside with you. Mabey put in a few 
    inches of gravel in these areas.
                        -
    		    -  	||  -	
    	 ->	-  	||   	 -
    		    	||		-	
                        ||                     - -
                        ||                    ||       -  <-
                        ||                    ||
                <- 3-4ft-----------------------
    
               Is this going to be used year round?  What about heat in the
    winter?  I've been playing with a few ideas for a "shack in the woods"
    and thought that double swing out doors, with a fire pit/reflector
    in front might work out.  
    
    		I don't know about the stud spacing.  For one, it seems
    like 16" would be stronger-in case of another hurricane, or heavy
    snow/ice storm.  Second, If you plan on buying anything like cheap
    windows, or cabinets to hang, or even a fising pole or gun rack, those
    all come ready to mount on 16" centers.(I had a heck of a time sticking
    my metal gun cabinet in a closet that had one spot that it fit well,
    but the studs in Only that spot, were 14" apart!)
    
    
    	Keep the note posted!
    
    	
    	

    Does anyone know of a good place to buy a wood shed in the Acton, MA
    area?  I do not want to build one myself.  I'm looking to spend around
    5-8 hundred dollars and I would like to find one with clapboards to
    match the house.  An 8X10 would be a good size.
    
    Thanks

    
    A friend of mine has a wood shed that needs to be moved about 20'.
    Without tearing the thing down, can anyone think of a way to move it???
    I'd say it weighs somewhere in the neighborhood of 1k lbs.
    
    MIKE

    Try Chapin Wood Products.  They have a display lot in North Attleboro,
    but will deliver most Anywhere in Mass.  A variety of styles and sizes
    are available and are all on display.  You can either buy a pre-fab
    shed which they simply back up a truck and simply drop on your lot
    (after they level the blocks) or they will build it on your site 
    from pre-fab materials.  You have to pull your own building permit.
    
    From 495 S. Take Rte 1 toward N. Attleboro.  Chapin's will be on
    the left hand side of the road about 5 miles S.  
    
    

    Re: Moving Shed
    
       I moved my present Garden Shed about 20 ft,by putting logs under
    it,and using a lever to roll it along....kind of like the ancient
    stone builders did. Took awhile,and raised alot of sweat........
    
    Marc H.

>    A friend of mine has a wood shed that needs to be moved about 20'.
>    Without tearing the thing down, can anyone think of a way to move it???
>    I'd say it weighs somewhere in the neighborhood of 1k lbs.

I used to move my chicken coop around from time to time...   :-)
Just hooked a chain to it and pulled it with the Jeep.

I expect you don't have a Jeep and you probably don't want to turn the
back yard into a mud pit so the next best thing is to get a come-along
and drag it around with that. Use a couple of 4x4s as "runners" to slide
it on. Get a decent bit of rope so you can attach the comealong to various
things (the comealong is probably not long enough.)

Mickey.

What a coincidence... I live in Acton too...

I just built a shed. Its 8x12. I can tell you that you will be hard pressed
to find a clapboard shed for under $800. 

As you do, I wanted clapboards to match the house. The materials were about
$1100 total, and the cost of the clapboards was about 1/3 the total! This is
assuming the clear red cedar 6" clapboards. Pre-fab sheds tend to cost a bit
less than DIY sheds, and a good reason is they don't use expensive clapboard.

Putting up the shed was not a big deal... it took me 2 weekends to build,
and now I just have to paint/stain it. If you are so inclined to change
your mind and DIY, you should let me know and come by and check mine out...

d

    How about doing the front of the shed with clapboards and the other 3
    sides with T-111 or such.  We did the front of ours with cedar and the
    rest with T-111.  It was a DIY project though.

    
          Ref: Moving a shed
    
       All you need to do is place a note in this file stating that you
     are buying (or whoever owns he shed) the hamburgers, hotdogs and
     beer for enough people to move it! I bet you'll not only get it
     moved, but you have a great time doing it!
    
                                               Randy

    I just had a 8 x 12 wood shed built by " New England Woodworkers " couple 
    days ago. It uses T & G ( pine ) siding nailed horizontally. The
    quality is at least similar to, if not better then, those made by
    others but at a lower price. For example, they uses 2 x 6 beams instead 
    of 2 x 4's that are commonly used by others. Comes with vent & drip
    edge, which may cost extra by others.
    
    The owner, Ed, is very friendly and is funny to talk to. He and
    his son, John, came to put up the shed. Delivery time is fast, only
    one week after I placed the order.
    
    I highly recommend them if you are planning to buy a wood shed. They
    are located in Tewksbury, and have some display right on RT129 in
    Willmington. Their phone number is 508-858-0282. Ask for Ed, since
    he is the owner, he can decide the final cost. Mention my name if
    you call him, see if he still remember me.
    
    Ken
    
    

    
    	Re: .30
    
    	Ken,                     
    
    	What's the advantage of 2x6s over 2x4s in a shed?  If this was a
    house, then clearly the extra space for insulation is a win, but I
    don't know of too many insulated sheds...  Did they space the 2x6s
    at 16" for extra strength (as opposed to the normal 2x4s at 16") or
    did they space them out further to cut down on the number of boards
    (and thus construction time)?
    
    							-craig

    The 2 x 6s are spaced 16" center. It gives stronger support than the
    2 x 4s. Some people may think it is no need to use 2 x 6s for a shed.
    But I think its a plus, especially it doesn't cost extra in comparison
    with others. The 2 x 6s are used for the supporting beam. The wall
    stud are 2 x 4s 16" center.
    
    

    
    We need to move an 8'x12' shed (not counting roof overhang) from the
    Athol Ma area to Keene NH.  So far we've had no luck finding someone
    who will undrtake such a event.  Has anyone had any luck finding an
    outfit that will move sheds? 
     
    Carol

    
    First of all, how much do you want to spend?
    
    Sounds like "$$$" is the big factor.  Take a chainsaw and 
    cut the overhang off so that its no wider than 8' and save
    some money on pulling an "oversized load" permit.  Rent
    a trailer form U-Haul. (might fit on a ramp truck) Load
    it on, chain it down and your off!
    
    JD

    
    The 8' width isn't a proble at all. The 12' legth is going to be ther
    problem. The 8x12 foot shed should fit on a  flat bed truck with no
    problem. The problem is moving onto the truck. See if you can rent one
    of these trucks someplace. Call a tow-truck outfit. They'll even supply
    thhe driver. 8*) 8*) 
    
    Mike

    I expect a rigger could move it.  Might be expensive though.  Is
    this shed really worth moving?
    
    How about dismantling it (at least partially) and moving the pieces?
    

    A few years back my step father moved his shed to his new house. He
    loaded it on the back of a flat-bed tow truck (that was conveniently
    owned by the car dealership he works for = no cost to him). He attached
    a large eye hook to the foundation of the shed -- the strongest part of
    the structure, and away it went. The operation went well, but because
    the shed wasn't very well built, it didn't survive the move all that
    well and after 4 years, the thing is falling apart. By the way, it was
    moved approx. 20 miles.
    
    If I ever move I want to take my shed with me, too. It's built just
    like a house -- my brother-in-law, a house builder, built it for me. He
    remarked that he couldn't build me a shed cause he'd never built one,
    but he'd build me a little house. The only thing this shed is lacking
    is electricity and plumbing! It's got 40-year roofing shingles, 2x4,
    16"-on-center, PT foundation, linoleum flooring, two windows complete
    with storms and screens, a Morgan 9-lite solid core wood door, a ridge 
    vent and vinyl siding. The whole thing (including labor) cost me $1500 -- 
    I'm not going to leave it behind!
    
    Mike

    
    
    Re: Mike D
    
    Mike, how do you figure the 12' is a problem?  8' is the max width
    you can run over the road.  Length (upto 40'),dosnt matter.
    
    JD

    
    8' for cars. Hell there are tractor trailors that are more then 8'
    wide.
    
    Mike

    re.16
    
    Did he use plans??
    
    	Print 'em up and go into the buisness!  
    
    	:-)
    

    
      I moved a shed once with a snowmobile trailer. It was simple,
     we slid a couple of 4x6s under it than (4 guys) lifted it and
     placed it on the trailer. Drilled three holes through the floor
     and bolted it to the trailer. Drove slow with a vehilce behind
     me as a warning and had no problems. I think that shed was an
     8x10 job. You may need bigger guys or guys on steroids. Anyways
     the snowmobile trailer was perfect. 
    
     Brian 

    We moved a small barn a few weeks ago. We originally tried to do
    it by lifting it up onto a flat bed tow truck. It didn't work,
    as it has no floor. They attempted to strap it and drag it onto
    the truck but couldnt' get enough support underneath it, and 
    part of the side collapsed. It's a 12 x 12 building. The tow
    company was very helpful, and didn't charge us anything as it
    didn't get moved. We only wanted to go 100 ft with it, but were
    told that had we wanted to go down the road the only problem
    would have been the height (it's 18ft tall at the highest point).
    The 12x12 dimension was not a problem. We finally did get it
    moved by literally picking it straight up by the roof with an
    excavator and swinging it around to it's new location. Quite a sight
    it was. We've since rebuilt the side, attached a new section,
    moved in another horse, and it's good as new!
    

This is my inaugural entry into this notes file.  I didn't even know it 
existed until last week.  But now that I know ...

On the subject of yard sheds, I am in the process of purchasing a new home,
and want to put up a shed in the back yard very soon after we move in in
early April.  I'm not as daring as most of you, so I will be buying a shed
from someone like Sears, Somerville Lumber - I'm working on this and deciding
who.  Anyway, the corner of the yard where I want to put the shed -- the only 
logical place for it to go -- has a decline.  If you can picture looking out 
from the back of the house to the back right-hand corner where I want to put 
the shed, I figure that the land where the right-hand part of the shed will
sit will be as much as 8 inches lower than where the left-hand part of the 
shed will sit.  We've already been told that most companies won't do any
levelling beyond just the miniscule stuff on already-level land.

So I've obviously got to do something about levelling things off.  I had 
planned on sitting the shed on cement blocks like I have in my present house. 
Any ideas on how a not-so-handy guy can go about this deed himself, or have it
done by someone else?  The result has got to be safe, for three little kids 
are going to be running around outside and no doubt be tempted by any open 
spaces they may see under a building.  Many thanks!

    
    What you want to do is very simple. 
    
    	. First position the cinderblocks/patiobricks in the position of
          the shed. Get this information from the builder of the shed.
    	. Then get a straight 2x4 and a level and raise or lower the blocks
    	  accordingly. Your best bet is to raise up the low end.
    	. Do step to in all directions. This will take a while, but it's
    	  worth having it done right.
    
    As for the opening underneath...If you're worried about the kids
    getting under there, then put some kind of border around it. Personally
    I'd be more concerned about skunks getting under there.
    
    Mike

>    I don't believe you want to sink or rest your posts on concrete.
>    They'll draw moisture from the concrete, and eventually rot.
 
	    I'm planning on putting a deck/foundation at the edge of a
	hill.  The plan is to set it on 4 6x6 PT supports.  I guess I'll
	have to dig 40" deep holes (New England) to prevent shifting
	from frost heaves.  I know this is going ot be very difficult
	but I can be pretty determined about some things.
	    I was also planning on securing these supports with concrete.
	Now I read that this is not a good thing.  It would probbaly be
	a little easier to fill the holes/posts in with dirt.  What's
	the right and/or best thing to do?
	    Here's a 2D of what I'm planning.  2x6's will make the frame
	and floor joists.


	       ______________________________________________________
	       ||			2x6			   ||
______________ ++--+-----------------------------------------------++
	      	|  | -  _					|  |
		|  |         -  _				|  |
	Under	|  |	             -  _			|  |
	Ground	|  |		             -  _		|  |
		|  |			             -  _	|  |
		|  |		Under		            -  _|  |
		|  |	          	Ground			|  | -  _
		|__|						|  |
								|  |
								|  |
								|  |
								|  |
								|__|

    
    You don't want to submerge the posts in the concrete. Just rest it on
    top. Good PT wood won't rot it it's just resting on top. One thing you
    want to check is what the town will consider if you put it on concrete
    pileons. My town (Goffstown NH) says that if I put in sona tubs and
    poured concrete and rested the shed on it, they'd consider it a
    permenent structure, and TAX me accordingly. I'd also need to get
    a building permit. If however I just put the shed on patio blocks it
    would NOT be considered a permenent structure, and NO TAX assestment,
    or would I need a permit.
    
    Mike

    
>    You don't want to submerge the posts in the concrete. Just rest it on
>    top. Good PT wood won't rot it it's just resting on top. 

	    If I just rest the PT posts on top (of patio blocks or
	concrete), what will prevent my shed from sliding down the hill?
	I'm now considering putting up a retaining wall and just laying
	a shed on that... but I have to investigate the yard some more.
	There's no easy place for me to build one.

					Tim

    Re: .16
    
    I've used a metal post holder that accepts a 4x4 post. It has a bolt
    hole in the bottom that you fasten to a concrete rod. The post is
    held in by nails in the side. They are made by TECO.
    
    They also keep the bottom of the post up about 1 inch from the concrete
    footing, to help the post keep dry. They use to cost around $3.50 each.
    
    Marc H.

    
    If you can level the patio blocks, when you put the shed on the blocks
    it's not going anywhere. With the hill you have you may have to use the
    concrete posts. But you still have to level it. 
    
    Mike

    My next door neighbor has his shed resting on patio blocks and it's
    SINKING into the ground. It probably won't be long before the shed is
    resting on the ground (I seriously doubt it's level ANYMORE). I had
    thought about doing the same thing until I saw that.
    
    Steve

    >    My next door neighbor has his shed resting on patio blocks and it's
    >SINKING into the ground.
    
    Do you live next door to me? ;-)

    
>    I've used a metal post holder that accepts a 4x4 post. It has a bolt
>    hole in the bottom that you fasten to a concrete rod. The post is
>    held in by nails in the side. They are made by TECO.

	    This doesn't sound like it would offer much strength to keep
	the post from shifting.  I'm looking toward using sona (?) tubes
	and 2x6's at right angles to build the frame on, sorta like this:


	_____________	     +-+
	  Joists go	     | |
	 across here	     | | < 2x6
	-------------	+--#-+-+
			|______| < 2x6
			 |    |  
			 |    |  
			 |    |  
-  _			 |    |  < Tube 
	-  _		 |    |  
		-  _ 	 |    |
			-+ _  |
	Under			 -  _
		ground

    Hmm, I wonder if that was a THREADED concrete rod . . .
    
    The TECO post holders which I've used are intended to be used
    on a concrete footing/foundation of some sort.  You insert a
    foundation bolt (J-bolt) into the wet concrete, leaving about
    an inch projecting above the surface; once the concrete cures
    the post holder is bolted to the protruding threaded rod.  A
    couple of nice things about these holders is that they have a
    slot in the bottom which allows for an inch or so worth of
    centering adjustment (in case your footing is off by 1/2 inch);
    they also have a small metal platform which raises the end of
    the post slightly to prevent the end from remaining wet.

    RE: .22
    
    Thats what I was talking about. I've used them on a deck I built,
    they worked.
    
    Marc H.

	    I went to Summerville and the guy I talked to enlightened me.
	I've seen the post holders and found they have two kinds.  One is
	flat and you mount your post to it.  The other is box shaped and
	you mount your post 'in' it.  The latter will offer a little more
	support and will be the style I'll be using.
	    I started digging sona tube holes today.  Once it warms up, 
	I'll be ready to start pouring/building.

				Thanks,

					Tim

    
    I know this note is a bit old but I've been looking at the (Handi Hut) shed
    kits for a possible project (for next summer). It's all precut and even 
    includes an instruction video that shows you how to assemble it. Have any of
    you built one of these things? I know next to nothing about carpentry but  
    I'm really good at following step by step instructions and it looks like
    these kits are pretty idiot-proof.   
    
    Steve B. 

       I built a shed kit I bought at Grossman's a couple years ago. It's
    still standing, and I was a novice. It didn't have a video (then) but
    the instructions were pretty good. I even did the shingles okay.
                                            Denny

I'm considering building a brick walk for my nephew who's in a wheelchair.  The
walk can not have steps and must drop 33" over 33 feet (8% grade).  Will a brick
walk be feasible here, or will the bricks slide down the slope over time?  
Would a 6"x6" pressure treated railroad tie at the bottom of the slope prevent
the bricks from sliding down?

Any thoughts or, better yet, first hand experiences would be appreciated.

Phil

An 8% grade sounds mighty steep for a wheelchair.  Interstate highways are
all 6% or less.  There's an 8% grade near my house that my car can't
maintain speed on an that they're considering spending several million on to
reduce it to 6%.  I would heartily suggest that you consider if there is any
way to reduce the slope (make the path longer by curving it, thus reducing
the slope).

To directly answer your question: I've seen this type of walk done fairly
steeply by putting a 4x4 every six feet or so.  The 4x4 had landscaping
spikes driven through it.  I'm not sure if this would result in a
sufficiently smooth surface for a wheelchair.

I have been wanting to pave the path from the front of the door
to the front of the door with granite or concrete or some other
way.  The builder if giving us  a scattered slate tiles which we
dont wish to take.

Anyone has any idea of the price to do it with concrete ?  Is it
easy to do it myself ?  The size is about 20' ling by 3' wide.

Will it be cheaper to do it with granite ?  Or prefabed concrete
blocks or something like that ?  WHere do I get these materials ?

Thanks much in advance

Mahendra

    Have you checked the directory of this conference?
    
    Marc H.

    I did my front walk with pre-fab'd concrete slabs. approx 2x2' x 2" -/+.
    leveled the walk, put donw a bed of sand leveled it and thru in
    the slabs.  worked great, not expensive, forget how mush tho,
    and didn't take a lot of time.  bought them from Chase precast in
    one of the Brookfields, they're in the book.  you can call for
    $$$.  they delieverd them.  the blocks come in other sizes.
    Did it about 6-7  years ago, they still look great (no problems)
    
    
    Judi

    
    I'd like to put in a walkway from my side door to the driveway,
    which will curve, then drop a few degrees as you hit the driveway.
    
    I looked in other notes on the subject of brick walkways and such,
    but none ever discussed a curved walk, or the need for a few steps
    because the grade will be too steep to walk on in winter...I can
    see me sliding into my car holding my baby with in one arm and 
    dragging my 2 year old behing me...ouch...what a scene.
    
    Right now, there is a walk, patio tiles, ugly, that go straigh
    down to the street.  This we would remove and instead curve
    to the right into the driveway.
    
    Any ideas?  I have one...but masons are sooooo expensive...I
    mean it can't be rocket science...just hard work from what I
    can tell.
    
    Thanks,
    Deb

    Be extremely careful of letting the slope of the hill dictate the 
    size and spacing of the steps.  Basically, don't do it.  I have a
    beautiful front walkway that flows down the slope of my yard like a 
    mountain stream, but the spacing of steps is all wrong and you have to
    continually shift from leading with your right foot to leading with
    your left to walk up the damn thing.
    
    Make sure that the combination of flats and steps works with human
    legs.
    

	   I put stairs down a hill made out of pressure treated wooden
	boxes.  I dug out the dirt where I wanted to place a step, set
	a box in to it and filled the box up with dirt.  I started at 
	the bottom and worked my way up, overlapping the boxes so as to
	hold them all together.
	   The stairs are holding up fine, so far.  They were fairly 
	simple and cheap to build.  They do conform to the landscape,
	meaning you have to adjust your stride when walking on them. 
	But they look good and they make going up or down the hill much 
	easier.

					Tim



	  +------------------------+-+
	 /			  / /|
	+------------------------+-+ |
	|			 | | |--------------------+
	+------------------------| |/			 /|
			      +-----------------------+-+ |
			      |			      | | |
			      +-----------------------| |/
					    	   +---------------------+-+
						   |			 | |
						   +---------------------+ |
									 +-+

Fishless and I planned the same type of steps for his front walk. We did
however plan out the grade to be evenly spaced risers and tried to lay things
out to match a 'normal' stride. We planned for 3" of the riser to be below
grade of the prior tread so that things would be locked in real good. Fishless
made his treads out of brick and deadmans' sand. Got the brick at some brick
mill (as opposed to retail @ 2 for 1.29) for something like 27 cents apiece.
I haven't seen the finished steps yet but I'm told they came out real well.
---

Joe Whittemore - From where the Westfield
                      Meets the Westfield
                         By the Westfield
                            In Huntington, MA.        [in SPIRIT anyway.....]

                            busy::jwhittemore
                      [email protected]  

    
    	re -1
    
    	Fishless? 
    
    	And what is deadmans' sand?
    
    	Bricks at Corriveau-Routhier range in price from .29 to .59 each;
    	can I do better at a brick mill? Do you know of any in No. Mass.
    	So. NH area?
    
    	John

John,

    Fishless - it's my friends well earned nick-name.

    deadmans' sand is what I know the fine grained sand such as that used
under an above ground swimming pool as.

    I suspect .29 is a good price. Fishless lives in Hubbardston.... if
you want me to find out where he bought his I will....

jw

    I thought I would re-open this note to see how everyone made out with
    their decisions on type,size and any additions they would of liked to
    have. After reading all the replies I still have 1 and only 1 major
    concern. This is it........
    
    If I build a permanent structure type shed (which I will do myself
    using all the best materials) what will happen to the wooden Pressure
    Treated Floor in say 15 years? This is the only part of the
    construction that is only somewhat protected to the ill effects of
    weather by the Pressure Treating. The rest of the structure should last
    100 years.
    
    I would absorb the cost of a cement floor with a footing but the area
    has a high water table (3' maybe) so this is not an option.
    Over time the floor will rot out from under the building (say 20 years)
    and the building will have to be destroyed or disassembled to replace 
    the floor......just like a patio deck..HHMMMMMMM??
    
                                 -Steve
    
    

    RE: .26
    
    Simple solution. Raise the floor one to two feet above the ground.
    Lasts for years........(works for me).
    
    Marc H.

    
    Mount it on wheels and forget paying property tax.
    Just an unregistered trailer.  :^)
    
    Fred

    	I built one 9 years ago and didn't even use a pressure treated
    floor. It sits on concrete blocks and the floor has no sign of rot
    anywhere. Is there some reason why it has to sit on the ground vs. 8"
    up off the ground ?
    
    	Ray

    RE: .29
    
    Moisture.
    
    Marc H.

    When you say no rot in the floor,,,you mean inside floor. I am refering
    to the underside of the floor along with the floor joists. Untreated
    underside (even on cement blocks) will get moisture rot and bug damage
    just like a patio deck (maybe even worse because a deck is at least
    stained every few years). Remember,,,,the sun never shines under
    the shed so the aging process of the wood will increase.
    My neighbor's shed floor is beginning to rot after only 8 years. The
    rest of his shed looks like new. Fortunately for him,,,he only has a
    few hundred invested in the building. I'm looking at a couple thousand.
    
    I was just thinking if there was something ALMOST as good as a concrete
    floor with a footing,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,ASPHALT MAYBE???
    
          Steve-who-likes-to-only-do-some-things-once

    
    
      If the floor of the shed is at least 6" off the ground and you have a
    good roof on it and keep it stained/painted just like a house, it will
    last, just like a house.
    
    				Kenny

   Well, since it sounds like you're already planning on going all out on
   this project...
   
   How about designing the floor such that it is made up of multiple
   panels of pressure treated wood that are removable from the inside.
   They could be secured to the floor supports with the same sort of
   bolts they use to make those large wooden swing sets - I don't know
   what they call it, but its a 2-piece bolt - one part is the bolt
   itself, and the other part is threaded and fits into a hole on the
   other side of the support beam.
   
   That way you can pull up the floor every so often to stain, or air it
   out, or check for damage, or even replace a panel or 2 as needed.  And
   if you don't want to use wood supports either for the same reasons,
   then maybe you could space cement pilings close enough to support the
   entire floor, and then secure floor panels into the cement somehow...
   
   Just an idea...
   
   - Tom

    Stain the underside???
    
    6" is too tight for me to slide under....

    	I actually built my shed on a sloping area. One side of the shed is
    just over 8" above the ground, the other is about 24". I was under
    there just last year as I relocated my dog houses under the high side
    of the shed (that's where they wanted to be anyway.)
    
    	When I crawled under there, everything (joists and flooring) still
    looked like new. There's no vapor barrior, stain, or preservative of
    any kind. It even has some standing water under there in spots once in 
    a while (after heavy rains.)
    
    	Ray

>                     <<< Note 123.34 by SALEM::ORLOWSKI >>>
>
>    Stain the underside???
>    
>    6" is too tight for me to slide under....
>

   Me too... but that was the point of the removeable floor panels - so
   that you could treat the shed the same way you would treat a deck, by
   regular maintenance to the underside as well... 
   
   - Tom
   

    
      I still don't understand the problem. If the floor doesn't get wet
    due to the presence of a roof and walls, how will it rot? A house is
    outside like a shed too, and it doesn't rot.
    
    					Kenny

    	My shed floor was approx. 1 foot off the ground and still rotted
    out twice in 7 years.  This spring I ripped out the floor for the
    second time and put about 18 inches of fill then 5 inches of 
    reinforced concrete.  Lets see how long this lasts.

    Joe

    re.36  The removable panels sounds like something to experiment with.
           This would leave access for maintenance.
    
    re.37  The sides or roof or inside never rot because the sides have
           overlapping siding of some kind with paint etc,,,,,
           the roof,,,shingles,,,the inside,,,dry,,,,,,THE BOTTOM,,
           moisture,,bugs,,mold,,,mildew. A house has no exposed or
           unprotected wood (well,,,most don't).
    
              "A chain is only as STRONG as it's WEAKEST link"
           Do a DIR/TITLE=SHED and read some of the rotten floors on sheds.
    	   I did read one about Floating a cement floor on the surface with
           bars in the cement.........................
    
    
    
                                                 -Steve
           

    re.38  Was your first and second floor Pressure Treated Wood??
           Sounds like you floated your slab of cement without a footing.
           Sometimes this works well if you pour the cement like this:
    
               --------------------------
              /  \--------------------/  \   
             /    \                  /    \
    
           Thicker on the edges in trenches
           
           What size shed do you have?
    
                                         -Steve

    	I must have gotten lucky. Maybe because I built my shed on a slope or 
    something ? At any rate, I'm coming up on 10 years with no problems
    (knock on wood ;-)
    
    	Ray

    
      I don't believe it. I have owned two houses with OLD outdoor porches
    that had no problems and have built three sheds over a period of 14 
    years at three houses. None more than 1' off the ground and NO parts 
    were PT. Even the oldest shed is still in perfect shape. If the wood
    doesn't get wet and if there is some air circulation under it, it will
    not rot.

        RE:.40

    	Neither floor was pressure treated.  The shed is 12' X 16' and is
    sitting on cinder blocks.  The shed is sitting on a slight grade so 
    I had a friend with a small dozer level a spot for me just before I
    built it and as most free deals go he went a little to far so I put a
    little fill back around the edges to put the blocks on  and built on
    that.  This spring I jacked up the shed and replaced the box that sits
    on the blocks (with pressure treated this time) shoveled about 8 yards
    of fill then put the 5" of reinforced concrete on top of that.  I
    believe the problem was there was no way for air to circulate under
    there.  One corner of the shed the blocks where even with the ground
    and the opposite corner was completely exposed.  Good or bad I'll have
    to live with it now.

    Joe  
    

    
    Whewww!! I started my Shed this weekend by renting a Power Auger and
    brusing my way into the earth to ready 6 -8" Sonnatubes. I'm not sure
    who got more brused,,,the earth or me. It took me from 10:00 am to 5:00
    pm to get the holes drilled and 1 day to fill the tubes with Sakrete
    Mix.........................
    
    I will build my 12' x 20' Shed in the spring.
    
    What a WORKOUT!!!
    
                                           -Steve

        I am planning on building a shed, and have some questions. The
        previous owners of the house must have had some plans for doing
        this, as they poured a foundation (approx 20x14). The interesting
        part is that it is poured into a grade, and surrounded by railroad
        ties on three sides. The front is level with the ground, with the
        grade rising on the sides, and is about 3 feet at the back. The rail
        road ties are about 4 feet in the rear, and slope with the grade on 
        the slide (4' in back, level in front).



                | |                                      | |
         ~~~~~~~| |                                      | |~~~~~~~~~~~
         Ground | |                                      | |
                | |--------------------------------------| | <-RR ties
                --------------------------------------------
                          Cement foundation
                          
        
                                FRONT
        
        
                               |-------------|
        ground level ----->    |------------------|
                               |-------------------------|
                               |---------------------------------|  <---ground
                                
                                SIDE
        
        

        My questions revolve around how to best situate the shed on this
        foundation, and what problems do I need to be aware of considering
        the unusual setup. My first thought was to put PT sils bolted to the
        foundation, with about 12 to 18" of clearance between the walls of
        the shed and the RR ties, and using the cement foundation as the
        flooring. Then I started thinking of the all the stuff that would
        get trapped between the walls and the RR ties in the back, and on
        the side. As well the moisture that this would retain.
        
        So, I'm not sure I want to go this route yet, and looking for any
        alternatives, or ideas on how to minimize the acumulation of leaves,
        plant matter, and other moisture holding junk between the ties and
        walls. I'm failry open on design ideas, want it large, and built to
        last.
       
        Steve
        

    What is your town's (tax) view of sheds?  Do they treat a permanent shed
    differently than a temporary one?  Sounds like the previous owners had
    poured a "parking space" for a "temporary" shed (unless they had a boat
    or RV that was parked there).

    Depending on how heavy your shed is, you may want to try to figure out
    whether there are footings under that slab, and where...

>    What is your town's (tax) view of sheds?  Do they treat a permanent shed
>    differently than a temporary one?  Sounds like the previous owners had
>    poured a "parking space" for a "temporary" shed (unless they had a boat
>    or RV that was parked there).

    I actually think they were going to put in a 'large' dog house with a 
    fenced in area. I'm not sure about the tax situation for permanent vs
    temp. I will find out.
    
>    Depending on how heavy your shed is, you may want to try to figure out
>    whether there are footings under that slab, and where...
    
    My guess, is no footings. This is just a guess based on what their
    intended use was. I can contact the owners, since they live just down
    the road from me and find out.
    
    My shed should be average weight for one its size appx 12x16 or so. If
    there are no footings, what would be the best approach?
    

    I'm going to build my own shed.
    
    I need some help on how to figure out the roof pitch and moreover how
    to cut the wood so that it meets at the top at the correct angle and
    also how to cut the wood so that it sits on top of the wall studs
    appropriately with a few inches of overhang.
    
    The shed size will be 10' X 16'.
    
    I've got a right angle tool, but just don't know how to use it.  Anyone
    got any "simple" instructions on how to make these cuts?
    
    Would appreciate your advice - thanx..... Dan

    Re: .22
    
    I bought a Swanson "speed square" once. It came with the Swanson
    "little blue book", which told you how to use the speed square
    to do what you want. There are instructions included with sears
    framing squares to help you do just what you want.
    
    The instructions are O.K.....the basic idea is to use the framing
    square to make cut angle, then transfer it to the wood.
    
    When I built my addition and cut lots of roof rafters, I could
    whip out a "birds mouth" before you could say boo!
    
    Marc H.

>    The shed size will be 10' X 16'.
>    I've got a right angle tool, but just don't know how to use it.  Anyone
>    got any "simple" instructions on how to make these cuts?

    Sometimes the simple approach is the simplest approach!! Layout
    your wall and roof rafters on the ground. You should very quickly 
    be able to come up with the proper angles and cuts to suit your
    needs.

    Charly

	    How's your trig?  The Pythagarean Theorum (a�+b�=c�) will give
	you a good idea on the length.  The rafter length would be c�, or
	the hypotenuse.  Measurements are made on the center of the board.
	The corner of your birds mouth cuts the centerline.  
	    Marc mentioned the booklet that comes with the speed square.
	That will give you the info on pitch angles.  I glanced through
	it and realized that there is some excellant infromation in there.
	Maybe someday I'll figure out how to use it(?).  Time Life has a
	very helpful book (Decks & Patios?) you might look for.
	    Cut a board to the measurements you calculate.  Use that as
	the pattern for your next board.  Take these first 2 and size them
	up for fit.  If everything looks good, use the first board to
	trace the pattern for all the rest of your rafters.

					Tim

    
    I got one of those books with the Johnson speed square, but found
    a mitre bevel to be a useful addition, especially working with a mitre
    box.    

    I'm roughing out a plan for a shed, and it seems to work out something
    like the following, although I plan on using smaller dimension timbers.
    
    With a typical gable pitch for the shed, and a baseline of 5' (b)
    the height is 3.5' (a) and the slope 6.10'(c). The angles would be:
    35deg (A) and 55deg (b):
      
                            B
                           /|
	sin A = a/c      c/ |a
	sin B = b/c      /  |
                        /___|
                       A  b
			
    Assuming 8" nom roof timbers, and 6" wall timbers:

	Rough cut to 7' (84")

	dim a = 77.75"        Angle at w = 125 deg (180-55)
	dim b = 64.5"                  x = 55 deg
	dim A-z = 3.5"                 y = 145 deg (180-35)
	dim A-y = 11.5"                z = 125 deg
        Top Plate Notch: (size to timber)
        dim z-x = 4.75"
	dim x-y = 6.75"	
                           x
	                  /|
                        /  |
                      /    |
                    /      /
               a  /      /
                /      / b
              /|     /
            / x+----y
          /w   |     
	  |   z|
          |   /
	  | /  
          / 
          A

    You might want to work out your precise measurements on graph
    paper first, using this as an example.

    I'm building a shed.  I'm contemplating using 3/4" Fir Plywood for the
    floor and would appreciate any recommendations on how to seal the wood
    for moisture protection (as it will be exposed to the weather for some
    time while I build the stucture), and I'd like whatever I use on the
    floor as a sealant to be practical for the abuse that it must endure
    with temperature changes and the storage of lawnmowers, snowblowers and
    the like.
    
    Any obvious choices come to mind?
    
    Thanx ...... d.

    Use pressure-teated ply.  The difference in price will be less than
    the cost of sealers and preservatives.

    Personally, I'd never use any type of plywood for a shed floor.
    
    Our shed's floor joists are pressure treated.  The actual floor
    is made of 2x8s (maybe they're 2x10s), directly from
    the mill, smooth on just one side, so they're really almost
    a full 2" thick. Those floor boards are not pressure treated.
    
    All I did with the floor to finish it
    is put on a really heavy coat of a
    good deck stain that I happened to have around.
    
    After several years and much abuse it's as good as new, and
    I don't expect to ever have any problems with it.

    RE: .0
    
    Paint
    
    
    Marc H.

    	After it's painted stained or whatever you end up doing make sure
    there is ventilation so air gets under it.  If moisture can't get out
    it'll rot from underneath.

    Joe

    First of all I would like to say that the information in this file is
    excellent.  I resently purchased a home and with all the projects I
    have going on I can look in this file and get answers most of the time. 
    Thanks for that.
    
    My question is this.  Is there anyone out there that has recently built
    a garden shed for the mower, snow blower etc.  My house doesn't have a
    garage and won't for at least another year.  I need a place to store a
    rider lawn mower, snow blower, shovel's rakes....
    
    What should I expect to spend to build a 10 X 18 shed?  I realize that
    it will depend on the materials I use but I'm not thinking of anything
    fancy. 
    
    Has anyone done the build vs buy on this?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Mark
    

    	Not sure where you live, but an ex-neighbor of mine bought a used
    one from Kidder wrecking in Plastow for less money than it would have
    cost to buy the wood. I believe they even delivered it. Some assy.
    required.
    
    	I don't have a number handy but I'm sure they're in the book. 
    Might be worth looking into.
    
    	Ray

    
    rent a trailer or ramptruck for the day and pickup
    the shed in the "forsale" section and just drop it
    off in the back yard.....
    
    jd

    I just completed a 12'x20' Garden Shed this summer,,,,well almost
    finished. I only need to make/buy the big door. Next year I will finish
    the inside and run the electric and water. It is 2x4 construction with
    pressure treated 2x6 floor/joists/ramp and T11 siding with asphalt roof
    shingles. Total cost so far is $2122. I rented a power auger for the
    holes. The window I had from when I installed a Bay Window on my house
    and the door I also had when I built my attached 2 stall garage.
    
    You get what you pay for as they say. 
    
                                       -Steve

I'm building a shed right now.  It's 12' x 8'.  2x4 walls 24" oc.
T1-11 siding,  pressure treated 2x6 floor and 3/4 PT plywood. Roof is
2x4's 16"" oc. 1/2" CDX plywood, 20 yr shingles.  I'll be using 1x4 and
1x5 pine #2 pine for trim and Behr solid stain (4-5 gallons for 2 coats).

It'll end up costing around $800 which I think for the size and quality
would have been around $1200+ bought finished.

Garry

	You might try gettin a shed kit.  I did works good for me.

					Tim

    
    Pre-made 8'x 12' vertical pine shed with double center doors and 2
    windows cost me $1050 last fall.  This price was 20% off the asking 
    price and was bought in Danvers at one of the roadside shed spots on 
    Rt114.  It was delivered in two weeks and assembled in around 3 hours.
    
    It is a very strong construction and you can't beat the assembly time.
    
    Cheers,
    Paul 

    I built an 8 X 12 Post and Beam shed about a year ago. For the
    deck I used 2 X 8 pressure treated joists topped with 3/4 inch 
    pressure treated plywood. For the frame I used 6 X 6 posts, joined 
    with 4 X 6 girts, plates and knee braces ( 45 degree diagonal supports ). 
    Roof rafters are also 4 X 6 and are 23 inches on center (12/12 pitch). 
    The whole thing is shelled with 1 X 12 pine, with board and batten 
    construction on the walls. Roof is topped with 25 yr shingles. I built 
    the windows out of wood from my scrap bin and plexiglass I had on hand 
    (Hey, they look good!) Put on a coat of light gray stain and painted  
    the trim white. I'm very happy with the results.
    
    All wood, beams and boards, were white pine straight from a saw mill. 
    Paid 30 cents a board foot for the boards and 35 cents for the beams.
    Delivered. Can't beat a sawmill for great prices. I know this method
    of construction was tremendous overkill for a small shed. But I plan to
    build a traditional center chimney cape sometime in the future and this
    was a "practice" run. Now my parents and 5 brothers/sisters all want
    similar sheds. Looks like I'll get a lot of practice!
    
    Regards,
    
    ~Dick D.
    
    

I just got finsihed building a 12' x 8'.  I did the siding in cedar, and trim to
match the house.  I built the a 6' x 6'5" door for the rider mower, and also
have a normal entry door and 2 double hung windows.

The price for all of the materials was about $1300.

-Al

    Yipes,  I figured I would spend about $500.00 bucks.  I have so many
    different projects going on I just can't afford to drop $1000.00 to
    1,300.00 on a shed right now.  
    
    One thing I know is that you can't build one too big.  You always seem
    to fill them up!
    
    Maybe I can build some kind of ramp system out of my walk out for now. 
    
    I mostly want it for the rider lawn mower.  It has to be out of the
    weather and I know throwing a tarp over it isn't going to cut it.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Mark
    

    Mark, I saw an ad in the back of a motorcycle magazine for a thing
    called "Cover It".  It is an instant garage, they show the smaller
    version for bikes, starting at $199.00, a medium sized one with a car
    in it then a larger one with 2 cars in it, steel frame dupont zip cover
    , withstands high winds, sun, sap and heavy snow.
    
    1-800-932-9344 ext 211
    
    Jt 

    Thanks JT.
    
    My big concern is to keep the stuff dry.  I'm wondering about dampness
    if it is a cover.  
    
    Thanks again,
    
    Mark
    

	    A metal shed would be in your price range.  

    Thanks for your reply's.  I think I'm all set.  There is a rumor that
    HQ will be having a sale on sheds the end of August and they fall into my 
    price range.
    
    Thanks,  
    
    Mark
    

Be aware that those "handy huts" could stand some extra bracing.  If you end up
spending your entire shed budget on one, you may have to kick in some extra to
be sure that its sturdy enough.

I haven't built a kit one myself, but have heard this from those who have.

-Al

> I haven't built a kit one myself, but have heard this from those who have.

	    Brands could vary.  My kit shed seems to be holding up well.
	The advert for it showed a car resting on the roof.  Not that that
	proves it will stand up to wind and weather, but it looked good.
	    I do think it's worth spending some bucks to make sure you
	mount the shed on a sturdy foundation.

					Tim

    I built one of the metal sheds about 8 years ago.  It still standing,
    and has served it purpose well.  My advice would to be make sure you 
    have a solid floor, and make sure you add extra bracing for the roof, or
    shovel all snow off the roof as it snows.
    
    About 6 years ago we had a real intense snowstorm with heavy/wet snow.
    It seemed that every backyard with a metal shed in Merrimack had roofs
    collapsed into the shed.  I'm not kidding , it was like every house. 
    Mine suffered the same fate.  That February, my Brother-in-Law and I
    cut 12 ft 2x4's at an angle to simulate pitch of roof, used as new
    ridge beams, (metal ridge beams were bent so bad they could not be used
    again, and supported with 2x4's in corners and cross 2x4 beams.  I have
    not had any problems since, however, I do keep a close eye on the shed 
    when it snows.  An awful lot of Merrimack residents with no handy-man
    skills took down their metal sheds that winter.
     
                                                                  

    We are purchasing a wooden shed kit from Home Depot in Nashua, NH, this
    weekend.  We have already constructed the floor in advance as that does
    not come with the kit.  We cannot pour a permanent floor as we are
    renting and that would be considered a permanent building and the
    landlord would be taxed for it.  So we have put down patio blocks and
    cinder block and have built the floor out of 2X8 PT wood and 3/4 CDX.
    For what the finished product looks like, it was a bit of work to get
    it done for novices like us (and all the hard work doesn't even show :)
    
    Anywho...this shed will be an 8X8 with a 4' extension to make it 8X12.
    Home Depot is having a 'special purchase' sale on the shed they call
    the Seville.  The kit is around $300 and the extension is around $135.
    You also need to buy shingles for the roof and any venting or windows.
    Lastly, we need to buy wood for the ramp.
    
    Should be an interesting project.  We have no garage, so this will
    house the motorcycle, bicycle, garden stuff that doesn't fit in the
    1/2 basement we have!
    
    It will truly be a LABOR DAY weekend for us :)
    
    Lin
    
    

  Hi Lin,


  Dan told me about the 'adventures' of building the floor/foundation!  :^)  
I hope the rest of the shed goes up easier!!!!


            Jim

    follow-up of 5401.17
    --------------------
    
    Well, we got the shed and it's UP and still standing today :)
    
    Even though it was a kit, there was quite a bit of work involved in
    getting it built.  It did have a very useful video that we watched
    before starting.  We spent about 8 hours at in on Saturday and got the
    whole structure up including roof.  We started the shingling on Sunday
    and got 1/2 of the roof done by the time we ran out of energy....so we
    covered it with a tarp (expecting rain) and called it quits for the
    day.  Monday we finished the shingles and got 3/4 of the caulking done
    and got one of the vents in the front installed.  It looks great!  Now
    all we have to do is finish the caulking and get some paint (oops, we
    have to put a row of shingles down the middle of the roof to finish it
    off) and install the other vent and it'll be done.
    
    I wouldn't want to build another one in a big hurry, but we sure would
    know how.  It will be well used and should withstand anything winter
    brings along....a good investment, I'd say :)
    
    Lin
    

    
    This past summer I installed 2 brick walkways. These past few cold
    weeks I've noticed that the bricks seem to swet. The condensation
    then freezes, which becomes quite a prooblem. Is this a common problem?
    
    steve

The bricks are porous so they absorb some water.  I could see that after
a rain if it got cold that you'd have problems with water seeping out and
freezing - indeed, I saw the same on my concrete paver walkway this weekend.

				Steve

    
    Isn't that part of difference between bricks and brick pavers? I seem
    to recall that bricks had a lesser life expectancy (when used in walks)
    due to being more porous and getting damaged by freeze/thaw cycles.
    
    								-Mac

    
    What grade of brick did you use?  About 15 years ago as a green
    homeowner on a new development, I salvaged hundreds of bricks from
    the building site to make a walkway.  These were "common" grade
    and even in the relatively mild UK winters they soaked up water
    which expanded during frosts, glazing the surface wth ice.
    
    The walkway only lasted a few winters as the bricks just flaked
    away and cracked.  Now I know that you're supposed to used
    "engineering grade" (high-temperature fired) brick - graded "sw" for 
    severe weathering" in the US.  Especially in the northeast. 
    
    Colin
    
    

>>    away and cracked.  Now I know that you're supposed to used
>>    "engineering grade" (high-temperature fired) brick - graded "sw" for 
>>    severe weathering" in the US.  Especially in the northeast. 

I use "pavers" - as sold by a local (Nasuha, NH) supply house.  They are
designed for outdoor vertical surfaces (so I'm told).  They have been down for
three years and I have not had this problem.

bjm

They are generally called pavers or paving bricks. If you used 
other bricks, they will absorb water and flake to bits pretty
quickly. 

Some people call concrete pavers "pavers" and outdoor paving
bricks "paving bricks".

Margaret.

    
    I used `boston pavers' as described by the co that sold them to me.
    Their designed use is for walkways.
    
    

I'm planning on building a 8'x12' shed this spring. I don't want to spend a lot
of time on the foundation and I think I'd like to use concrete blocks. My
neighbor has his shed on patio blocks and it is sinking into the ground. My shed
will be in the same general area so I would think that the ground is just as
soft. If I were to use wider (more surface area) blocks and use more of them
could I expect to avoid this? I figure if I distribute the weight over more
blocks, the shed would be less likely to sink. The ground is actually pretty
firm most of the time but it gets a bit soft when we get a lot of rain. 

Also, does anyone know if you need to get a permit to build a shed in Shrewsbury
Mass.? I'd like to avoid that hassle (especially if it results in a revaluation
of my property). 

Steve B.

   re -.1
    	I'm planning on building a 8 x 12 shed this spring too and I have the 
    same concern as you.  How to prevent a shed from settling unevenly in
    soft ground?  At present, my thoughts are to spread out the load by
    using 6 x 8 PT beams lying on the 6 inch side at the 8 ft ends of the
    shed instead of cinder blocks.  I don't know how expensive that would
    be but it should work.  Perhaps it's possible to sink aboit a 2 foot PT 
    6 x 8 post a couple of ft onto the ground at the corners(even with the
    grade) and then lay the beam on top of the post.  I don't want to put
    in 4 ft sonotubes/concrete because the shed will be in among trees and I
    don't want to take a chance damaging the tree rooots by digging a deep
    footing.  Besides, I may want to move the shed some day.
    
    	Where did you get your plans?  I'm looking for a set of 8 x 12
    plans with a barn roof and double side door.  
    
    					regards
    					Bob
    
    	
    
    

    I set my 8' x 12' on (6) cement filled sono-tubes sunk 2' in the
    ground. After 5 years it hadn't budged, admittedly it was dry ground. A
    lot more work than placing cinder blocks down but it works much better
    too.
    
    ~jeff 

    Hi Steve,
    
    Each town is different in regards to building permits so you should
    check with Shrewsbury's building inspector.  Also, it could also affect
    your assessment depending what you set the shed on.  If you put it on
    footings/slab, in N. Reading it's considered a permanent structure and
    adds to your assessed value (so you pay more in taxes).  If you put the
    same shed on block, in N. Reading it's not considered permanent so
    doesnt increase assessment.
    
    Rhonda

    and if its consider permanent then you have to place it with
    the setback laws. Put in blocks and you can abut the nieghbors yard.
    

    I've always been told that I could not have a shed within the setback
    distances even if it was temporary -- under 100 sq ft and on blocks.
    
    ed

>>    I've always been told that I could not have a shed within the setback
>>    distances even if it was temporary -- under 100 sq ft and on blocks.

Four years ago you could.  The town "suggested" that it be 6' away from the
line.  

The setbacks in Merrimack, NH are 60' back line, 30' sides and front.

My 96 sq ft shed is 6' off the back line, which happens to be the side of
another lot and their house is 30' away so my shed is 36' away from their
house.

Anything over 100 sq ft required a permit.

bjm

I gotta believe there's a note in here somewhere about this, but I didn't see
anything in the index.

The time is finally drawing near to build a brick walk and entry way.  This
taks actually breaks down into three categories, each of which could almost be
a topic on their own!

	1 - I have a cast concrete front step which I want to replace with 
	    brick.  While the easy thing to do would be to break it up and start
	    from scratch, has anyone successfully faced one of these with brick?
            I would start by lowering it 4 inches and then bricking it over. I'd
	    think this would be both quicker AND cheaper than doing it from 
 	    scratch.

	2 - I have a second entry that has a BIG poured concrete step, about
	    4X8 and about 14" think, which I also want to brick over.  My 
	    though here was to get a hammer drill and drill down maybe 6" or so.
	    Then I could break things up and then face this with brick.  The
	    thought i smashing this up seems more work than worth it AND since
	    it's a nice solid base, why not keep it.

	3 - The walk itself.  I assume the standard technique is to dig down 
	    a few feet (is three enough?  do I have to get below frost line?),
	    throw in a pile of stone, put some sand on top of that and then lay
	    the brick, taking care to put 'soldiers' (vertical bricks) around
	    the perimeter for strength.  What should the thickness of each layer
	    be?

-mark

    	Mark,
    
    	The index, from what I understand, has not been updated in some
    time. A DIR/TITLE=xxxx is probably a better way to find things. A
    DIR/TITLE=BRICK yielded the following. You'll probably find a lot of
    what you need in some of these notes.
    
    	Hope this helps.....Ray
    
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   376  MRMFG1::A_PEIRANO    10-SEP-1986     8  Removing Z-BRICK from skimcoated sheetrock??
   599   MAGIC::MURPHY       24-NOV-1986     6  ?  Looking for a brick mason ?
   680  LEHIGH::SUKIEL        6-JAN-1987    34  How to install Brick/Stonedust Walkways
   791    YODA::FAY          11-FEB-1987    23  Removing paint from brick
   825  BARNUM::CHENETZ      24-FEB-1987    13  Brickfacing a cinder block wall
   933  DONJON::BRAVER       26-MAR-1987    12  Chalk on brick walls?
  1069   LILAC::MAYO         24-APR-1987     1  Facing brick chimney with fieldstone
  1191  CHAPLN::ROSENTHAL     4-JUN-1987    47  Brick walk-way advice...
  1217    NSSG::LOTT         12-JUN-1987     5  cutting patio bricks
  1398  FACVAX::MALONEY       6-AUG-1987     8  Brick cleaning??
  1428     BMT::MISRAHI      18-AUG-1987     9  Fixing up brick walls
  1590  AMULET::FARRINGTON    1-OCT-1987     6  Cutting brick ?
  1630  RUTLND::LAIDLAW      21-OCT-1987     8  Cleaning fireplace bricks?
  1941   MECAD::MATHEWS       3-FEB-1988     6  Glass Brick
  2113  USMRW4::RRIGOPOULOS  14-MAR-1988    12  Brick Patio Suggestions !!!!!
  2163  NETMAN::SEGER        29-MAR-1988     7  Brick chimney above the roof only?
  2167   27769::BUTLER       31-MAR-1988     2  chimney BLOCK to BRICK
  2233  GRANMA::GHALSTEAD    19-APR-1988     4  Need help cleaning brick?
  2400  USMRW4::RRIGOPOULOS  16-JUN-1988    13  How to Cut Bricks??
  2414  MARUTI::PGORDON      23-JUN-1988     4  Brick walls and ivy
  2515  DECSIM::DEMBA         1-AUG-1988    12  Source for INTERLOCKING bricks
  2912  HPSTEK::JORGENSEN     4-JAN-1989     8  Brick Suppliers...
  3025   DELNI::MCCONNELL    16-FEB-1989     1  Building Shelves into Brick?
  3087  PMROAD::CALDERA       9-MAR-1989    13  Removing Mortar from Bricks
  3257  AKOV11::KUMOREK      22-MAY-1989     4  Pulling brick off the front of a house
  3489     RAB::MEHRING      18-SEP-1989     8  Whitewashing/Painting Brick Fireplace???
  3490   SMURF::PIYANAI      18-SEP-1989     2  Tiling over brick on face of fireplace
  3991    NSSG::FEINSMITH    27-SEP-1990     1  Framing openings for a brick wall
  4211  NOTIME::SACKS         3-MAY-1991     1  Repairing brick stairs
  4235    MARX::FLEMING      16-MAY-1991     7  bricks breaking up
  4460    MPGS::MCNALLY      10-DEC-1991     6  mortar off bricks
  4529  CNTROL::KING         19-FEB-1992     0  Caulk in the pores of bricks
  4717   GLDOA::SIEMBOR      14-AUG-1992     5  Brick Pavers over Concrete?
  4809  BENONI::MI            1-DEC-1992     1  Refinish a red-brick wall
  4896    SAHQ::DERR         22-MAR-1993     0  Brick Fireplace Renovation
  5009  NIOMAX::QUATTROCHI    6-JUL-1993     2  Expansion Joint For Brick Steps?
  5111  ASABET::POMEROY      22-SEP-1993     7  How many bricks????
  5378  GEMVAX::ROSS         22-JUL-1994     2  Brick vs "Pavers" ???
  5536  NOTAPC::SEGER        20-MAR-1995     0  Building a brick walk and entry
    

Mark

I can't speak for the steps, but I put in a brick walkway 6 years ago. Still
looks great.  Three feet down would be overkill...big time.  I have
approximately 6" of mansonry sand under mine.  It does heave a bit in the
Spring thaw.  But after the frost is out, it settles down again to the
same state as the previous year.  This is the advantage of mortarless joints.

Feel free to come by and take a look.

						Mark

Wow, did my wife contract you to do our brick projects this year?  

I have plans to do EXACTLY the same 3 things - Brick over a small concrete 
stair, brick over a 4x8 concrete porch landing and create a brick walkway.

We should stay in touch offline...if for nothing more than moral support.

    
    Check out note 3952.  Just another option. I had my walk installed
    almost 5 years ago, cost me about the same as doing it myself and
    the walkways and patio still look great.
    
    Bill

I actually made a miniumal amount of progress this weekend.  I started to draw
a rough sketch.  I'm starting to think about just building a front stoopp from
scratch - what the hell, 1/2 the reason for doing this sort of thing is for the
fun, isn't it (groan...).

Anyhow, one of the immediate things I realized is that one needs to be REAL
careful about laying this stoop out so that the top (and each step) are exact
multiples of brick/mortar so you don't have to cut any bricks.  The same goes
for the height of the thing.

I guess what you do (from watching one being built) is lay down some footings
and build a 3 sided box out of cinder blocks.  Then you just face it with brick,
right?  I also imagine you fill the middle with a bunch of rocks/concrete so you
have a solid/level surface on which to start setting the bricks.

The only thing here, though, is that since several feet of stoop are
underground, I don't want to waste the brick (or is this a requirement?).  One
thing I thought might work would be to offset the layer of cinder blocks just
below grade level so that the botton brick could sit on that course.  Sound
reasonable? 

Anybody ever do this before?

-mark

>>> Anyhow, one of the immediate things I realized is that one needs to be REAL
>>> careful about laying this stoop out so that the top (and each step) are 
>>> exact multiples of brick/mortar so you don't have to cut any bricks.  The 
>>> same goes for the height of the thing.

    My [un]common sense tells me that either the height or the width of the
    step has to be a multiple, but not both, since one can be tucked in 
    under/behind the other.

	      |		          |
	- - - |	    or	    - - - - 

    and as my mason pointed out when I met him: "Mortar comes in all sizes"
    Not quite but good to remember.
    
    ed

    
    	Any updated info on wooden sheds ? 
    
           Where to buy ? N.H., Ma.
    	   Prices ?
    	   Quality ?
    	   Advantages of one type vs another ?
    
    	Other "shed" info in Notes is approx 2-3 years old.  
    
    
                                       

    
    
    I'm interesting in getting a shed built or buying one already
    built... Anybody got any recommendations, beware-of, or must-have's with 
    their purchases/experiences ?
    
    I thinking of getting one the size of 8x10 or 10x12.
    
    I'm located in Chelmsford.

    
    	I've no recommendations except make the shed as large as you can
    afford.  When I built mine about ten years ago I originally wanted an 
    8x10 well I let a neighbor talk me into a 12x16 and it seemed big at
    the time.  Well now I wish I had made it even bigger as I'm out of
    space to put things and I'm contemplating an addition.

    Joe

     I'd second  .2's advice. I built an 8x10 shed years ago. Could
    use two more of them for all the junk my family accumulates.
    
     On the other hand, if I were to get rid of all of the junk that
    I really don't need and probably never will use, I'd have room
    enough in the shed that I have.
    
    As far as the PT issue, use it for the floor framing and possibly
    the plywood flooring. Keeps the bugs and moisture at bay.
    
    signed,
    Pack Rat in Wilmington

    	I built one and put what I believe is called a shed roof on it
    instead of a standard pitched roof. This design lent itself well to a
    loft type arrangement, so I actually got almost a story and a half of
    usable space. I had doors on the upper leval for outside access and
    only ran the loft about 1/2 way back on the inside, so this gave me
    inside access too.
    
    	The house that the shed was near had T-111 siding, so that is what
    I used on the shed. In the event I had clap boards or vinyl siding, I
    would have used that instead. I couldn't believe how easy it was to
    vinyl side something with good results on the first attempt.
    
    	Unless the bottom timbers are going to be in contact with the
    ground, I can't see why you'd need any PT. Mine sat on cement pillars
    and, over 10 years later, still looks as good as the day I built it.
    	
    	Ditto on the size thing. Build it as big as you can afford it. My
    next door neighbor bought one from Kidder Wrecking in Plaistow, NH. He
    got a 12'x16' I believe, and paid $500 for it a few years ago. The
    walls, floor, and roof came completely assembled and the cost included
    delivery. Might be something to consider.
    
    	Ray

    I'm looking to build a 12x12 and looking for a blueprint of differant
    styles and materials that I need to order.. Any ideas out there??

    Does anyone know of any lumberyards that have programs to print out
    diagrams and materials list with costs for sheds?  (Similar to the deck
    programs that many places have.)
    
    I thought I had heard of some, but calls to HD, HQ and SL have left me 
    wondering. 
    
    -don mac

    Just got back from Somerville lumber and picked up a
    	"UCANDO BARN STORAGE SHED KIT" 
    
    	This Kit is what I was looking for which was.
    
    	1. Large, professional easy-to-follow blueprints
        2. Complete list of Materials
    	3. Dimensional drawing of every detail.
    
    Well now I have something to do this weekend.. :-)
    
    	They had all sorts of HOw to kits/blueprints from birdhouses to 2
    car  garages..
    
    Just an f.y.i.

I'm looking to build a 12X16 shed at my new house this summer. 
This time I'd like to go with a salt box roof, shro roof at front, 
long roof to back.

Any suggestions on the roof angles to get that "classic" colonial
line?  if I build the fron wall 8' high, back wall 6' hing, and a front overhang
of 2 or 3', how do you handle the cieling joists??

anybody have a design/plan similar??

I also like the curve trim under the long overhang in the front.

thanks


gary

    One "classic" roof angle is 108 degrees included angle...from the
    practice of using a pentagonal ridge beam.  I've got that in the
    oldest part of my house.
    
    Note that in the true saltbox, the front and rear angles are the
    same.  The saltbox roof comes when you put a lean-to shed addition 
    on the back of an already existing 2-story house and tie the two
    roofs together into one roofline.

    FWIW, the house we're building is a saltbox ... the pitch is 6/12. 
    it's not as authentic (perhaps) as the original saltbox architecture,
    but we're able to truss (with a standard truss) instead of stick-frame
    or custom-truss.  keeps the costs down.

I'm getting around to designing and building my shed, 12X16.   The bldg
inspector wants 6 sonotubes (3 front, 3 back along the 16 side), 4 feet
deep (thats another story).

I was planning on building the deck out of 2X6 PT and using joist hangers.
My question is that I plan on storing an antique Jeep (small but weighs 2,000
pounds) in the shed.  Any ideas if a 2X6 with a 12' span will be sufficient?


Also, I'm still looking for a great saltbox, carriage shed style design 
for my shed,  The rof angles, and overhang are the key.

thanks

gary

    	Gary,
    
    	I don't think that a 2x6 is rated for a 12' floor span. There are 
    tables that tell you what the max. span is for various kinds of woods.
    Just about any carpentry book that includes framing should have it.
    
    	Seeing at how you're planning to put a jeep on it, I'd want to go 
    at least one size up from the minimum size required, which I'm pretty
    sure will be at least 2x8's. Just out of curiousity, why not just pour
    a slab ?
    
    	Ray

I hadn't even considered a slab.  My thought would be it is too expensive 
and over-kill for a garden shed. but I'm always open to suggestions.
are you suggesting a prepared gravel bed with a slab, or a concrete
block frost wall with a slab on top?

gary

BTW, I gree, the 2/6 porbably wouldn't handle it. 2x8 should.

    You might check with your local lumber yards.  I know in my
    area, Moore's Lumber can size joists for you (at least for
    houses - don't know if they'd do it for a garage.)
    
    Vince
    

    I have a 10 x 18  fully frammed shed with a loft that sits on a 
    4-5 inch slab and it's been fine for 11 years.  There are no 
    cracks whatsoever but it probably couldn't because of all the iron
    I through in.  The soil conditions were ideal in that drainage was
    not an issue.  
    
    I didn't use a frost wall figuring that everything could move from
    season to season as a whole.
    
    Going from memory here but once you factor in the cost of sonotubes,
    concrete, pt lumber, etc.  you might as well have poured it.  And
    it's a quick job ie.(ground work, rough frame and smouth it out.)
    you can be a fussy as you want, or leave it rough.
    
    FWIW
    Dick

> I hadn't even considered a slab.  My thought would be it is too expensive 
> and over-kill for a garden shed. but I'm always open to suggestions.
> are you suggesting a prepared gravel bed with a slab, or a concrete
> block frost wall with a slab on top?

> BTW, I gree, the 2/6 porbably wouldn't handle it. 2x8 should.

    2x8 would be the minumum that I'd use, but since you plan to park
    a vehicle in there, I'd go to 2x10s.

    A slab would not be a bad idea for this application. It might even
    be the same cost or cheaper. A 12' X 16' by FULL 12" thick slab
    would only be about 7 yards of cement, or about $420. How much are
    the 6 sona tubes, all of the floor joist (pressure treated lumber)
    and floor decking (PT again) going to cost?

    For slab design, I probabaly go for maybe a 6" slab with
    integrated and deeper walls/ footings. Dig about a two foot deep
    trench for the walls. 

    You better check with the Building Inspector on this though. The
    poured floor/foundation may also affect your tax base as well. In
    some towns a free standing shed on blocks is taxed less then
    something with a more substancial foundation.

    Charly

>> BTW, I gree, the 2/6 porbably wouldn't handle it. 2x8 should.
>     2x8 would be the minumum that I'd use, but since you plan to park
>     a vehicle in there, I'd go to 2x10s.

	don't forget to check out engineered lumber (wooden I-beams, and
	the various laminated beams) and/or engineered joist systems.

	the prices appear to be very competitive.  and you don't have
	to do the whole job with engineered lumber, you could just use
	one down the middle (and maybe one down each side?) which would
	reduce your span for the joists in 1/2 and then you can use
	conventional dimensional lumber with a much smaller width.

	or if you are going to be digging/pouring 6 sonotubes anyways,
	what's another 3?  then you could use conventionial lumber
	for the main beam down the middle .....

>	don't forget to check out engineered lumber (wooden I-beams, and
> 	the various laminated beams) and/or engineered joist systems.

    How does engineered lumber hold up in close proximity to the
    ground? I would consider the underside of a shed to be a damp
    place. I know what plywood looks like after it's been damp for
    awhile. I wouldn't want that happening to my structural beams.

>	or if you are going to be digging/pouring 6 sonotubes anyways,
>	what's another 3?  then you could use conventionial lumber

    9 sona tubes located within a 12'X16' space doesn't leave too much
    gound untouched! A trench and a slab sounds easier if it'll pass
    with the local building inspector.

    re: over-kill for a garden shed
    
    	How many jeeps do you see, antique or otherwise, in garden sheds ;-)
    I've never poured a concrete slab, but I do know that concrete is
    relatively inexpensive. The 2x8's I mentioned were what I thought the 
    minimum would be for that span. If you went with wood, you're probably
    either going to want 2x10's, and/or another beam across the middle.
    
    	The slab will take the place of both the 2xX's and the plywood
    floor, which would also be substantional to support a cars weight. I
    think you'll find a 6" slab to be right around the same price as a
    wooden floor, but a lot more durable for your purposes.
    
    	The only drawback is, as someone mentioned already, you are taxed
    at a different rate because the slab is considered permanent, where a
    pier type can actually be moved (actually either can if designed for
    it). I believe there is already a wealth of information in here about
    doing slabs (see note 141 for starters).
    
    	Ray

    	One other thought. You could build the walls on pressure treated
    4x4's in direct contact with the ground. Then you can have a dirt, or 
    peastone, or gravel floor. Simple, easy, cheap, and will support a jeep.
    
    	Ray

> How does engineered lumber hold up in close proximity to the
> ground?

	well the truss joist system can be made out of pressure treated
	as well I would imagine (the metal pieces holding the truss together
	you'll probably want to make sure are galvanized pieces then).

	the laminated strand lumber, while not pressure treated, is made
	with lots of glue, and under very high pressure.  I believe that
	would be ok close (but not touching) the ground, but it would
	most definitly be something to ask the lumber yard/home center.

After sketching out the design, I've determined that I need to increase the 
depth of shed to 14'D by the 16' long.  I also figured out how I could use
all 8 foot joists by arranging the deck as follows:

       8'     8'
    o------o------o
    |------|------|  jeep enters here
14' |------|------|
    |------|------|
    o------o------o

        16'

This still requires only 6 sonotubes, and the floor joists are only 8' long.
I'll check the engineering tables but I would think that 2X8 would support
the weight ok.  

As for the concrete... I'll have to go meet with the bldg inspector.  There
are some advantages to the concrete.  However if it requires a frost
wall with footing (even 2 ft) then it seems like a lot more work and cost.
with the sonotubes I can dig and pour them one day (self mix) and build the 
next.  

good ideas!

Gary

    I'd say go with sonotubes and a packed gravel floor.  You could
    put wooden decking around the area you want to store garden tools
    on etc.  You could incorporate barn-type sliders for doors also.
    We put in this type of garden shed/storage shed (terms decided by
    which end of the street one approaches house from ;*) ) but it
    is the underneath portion of an extension to the existing house.
    The other half is for a covered patio with crushed stone and
    black and red squares forming a giant outdoor checker/chess 
    board.  Hopscotch layout can be done with natural cement pads
    as part of a walkway.  

    justme

    lsl - laminated strand lumber - requires constant bearing to be used, 
    therefore its typical application is as rim joists and posts but not
    as joists (wood I-beams or lvl) or headers (lvl) where point loading
    occurs.

    I'm in the market for a shed.  With all the projects I have
    going right now, including landscaping, painting the house,
    insulating and sheetrocking a garage, wallpapering a room, etc.,
    I don't have the time, or energy, to build a shed, not to mention
    a baby due the end of May.  However, since I have a two car garage
    full of everything but cars, I'm looking to purchase a shed and
    have it moved/assembled on site.
    
    I'm off this weekend to start pricing them, ie: at the Mill Store
    in Amherst NH, and any other place I can find.  I'm looking for
    other locations in NH preferably, near Brookline/Nashua. 
    
    I'm also not sure what I can expect to pay for various sizes.  Has
    anyone priced these out lately?  I'm looking for something larger
    than the 8X10 or 8X12 sizes.  probably in the range of 12X12, 12X16,
    etc.  I've got a ride on tractor, snowblower, lawnmower, yard cart,
    2 wheelbarrows, 3,448 rakes, and 1,223 shovels and miscellaneous
    garden tools... thus the reason I'm looking to buy as big as I can
    afford.  I'm guessing an 8X10 is about 1K, and a 12X14 is nearing
    the 1.5K range...?
    
    Thanks,
    Tim
    

    Pricing will depend on the siding -- several years ago I saw prices of
    roughly $1100, $1300, and $1400+ for an 8x12, depending on whether the
    siding was T-111, pine shiplap, or cedar shiplap.
    
    Dick

    I was at the Home show in Boston this past weekend.  I was looking at
    10X12 sheds and they ranged from about $1200 to $1600.  There's an
    awfull lot of variables involved in the price and prices are
    negotiable(at this time of the year).  Assuming you want reasonable 
    quality and are willing to stain it yourself.  Expect to pay $1600 for
    a shed that is delivered and assembled on a site that you have already 
    cleared.   In the local area, I thought that Reeds Ferry buildings made a 
    good quality shed for the money.  List price for the 10x12 was $1995, the
    "show" price was $1595.  However, the vendor stated that due to the
    competition at the show, I could buy the shed for $1495.  Check out
    Reeds Ferry, I believe they're in Merrimack or Bedford NH on Daniel 
    Webster Highway.
    

    	There's a place on Rt. 28 in Hookset that does pre-fab structures.
    I believe they're on the left hand side coming from exit 8 (?) on Rt.
    93N. They also do garages and houses. They had a nice 2 car garage for
    around $8K ;-)
    
    	I think the place is called Woodmasters. They're listed in the
    phone book at 800-242-1650. Might be worth a call.
    
    	Ray

    After much searching, I've settled on a 10X16 from Reeds Ferry small
    buildings in Hudson, NH.  The average cost at 3 other locations for
    this size with the option I wanted was about 2150.00.  I wanted
    pressure treated floor joists, vents, optional 5' side door in
    addition to 3' center door and two windows, and ramps.  I wanted
    pine versus cedar or t-111.  I told him I wanted to purchase one
    this weekend, and that I had a price of about 1999 (ok, so I 
    creatively interpreted the other bids..)  he said no problem,
    he'd deliver what I wanted on 4/1 fully installed for $1839.
    
    I was impressed with the construction.  Walls/floors and roof was
    all 16" on center, with 2x6 for the floor joists.  Some locations
    had 24" for walls and ceilings, and the Mill store even had 2x4s for
    floor joists...
    
    Tim