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Conference napalm::musclecars

Title:Musclecars
Notice:Noter Registration - Note 5
Moderator:KDX200::COOPER
Created:Mon Mar 11 1991
Last Modified:Mon Jun 02 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:182
Total number of notes:5467

114.0. "Torque vs. Horsepower" by ZUR01::SCHMIDTHE () Fri Jul 02 1993 03:59


Hi folks,

can anyone explain me whether a car with more torque or a car with more 
horsepower runs faster.

                                                 Henry

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114.1TINCUP::MFORBESIt's NOT your father's Chevy VegaFri Jul 02 1993 07:587
If by "runs faster" you mean ET, then more torque gets you a lower ET.

If by "runs faster" you mean mph, then higher peak horsepower gets you more mph.

If course, torque and horsepower are directly preportional at any given rpm.

Mark
114.2The short answerSANTEE::AUGENSTEINFri Jul 02 1993 08:2565
Assuming reasonable gearing in all cases, HP *always* wins the top speed
contest, and should also win the drag race.

The reason is, to quote Eric Goehl: "It's better to make torque at high rpm
rather than at low rpm, because you can take advantage of gearing."

As you may know, HP is a calculated item, based on measured torque at any given
rpm. That is, nobody actually *measures* HP. Dynomometers measure torque, and
you calculate HP using the formula:

			Torque * RPM
		HP  =   ------------
			    5252 

Torque is a measure of the twisting force an engine can exert at the flywheel,
so available torque will govern the ol' belt in the back when you punch it. In
any given gear, the acceleration rate will be directly related to the torque
curve, and HP is not relevant.

*However*

Looking at the formula (and maybe messing with it a bit), you will see that, if
you make a peak of 300 ft/lbs of torque at 5252 rpm, you will make 300 HP.
However, if you make your 300 ft/lbs peak at 2626 rpm (exactly half of 5252, for
ease of calculation), you'll only make 150 HP. This tends to be a bit confusing,
because, in any given car, in any given gear, 300 ft/lbs of torque will give you
the identical belt in the back *regardless of whether you're making that torque
at 2626, 5252, or any other RPM*.

So, if torque rules an acceleration rate, why did I say that HP wins?

'Cause of Goehl's golden rule, that's why.

The engine that made 300 ft/lbs at 5252 RPM can use *double the gearing* for any
given car speed, so available torque *at the drive wheels* will be double.
Therefore, the belt in the back makes you laugh out loud, instead of merely
smiling :-).

As a practical matter, you don't get double the belt in the back with double the
gearing, because of flywheel effect, but, you do get a bunch more.

The other way to look at it is, assuming identical cars with identical gearing,
the engine that can extend it's torque curve higher, thereby making more HP (per
the formula), can stay in 1st gear (or any other gear) longer, so it will have
an advantage in a drag race. The example is a late L98 Vette against the current
LT1. The cars are geared identically, and both engines have a peak torque rating
of 340 ft/lbs, so they will each belt you in the back with the same authority
(at peak torque). In a drag race, the L98 driver will have to shift about a
thousand RPM short of where the LT1 driver needs to shift, so the LT1 will pull
away from the L98 at the top of each gear.

The late lamented Plastic Bullet made 370-380 ft/lbs of torque, so it woud pull
*harder* than an LT1. However, I'd have to shift that same 1000 RPM early, so
the end result would be that the cars would run approximately neck and neck in
the quarter mile.

As for top speed, simply messing about with the numbers will tell you that HP
wins when you figure that high-RPM torque gets you a bigger possible gear at any
given car speed, which in turn means you can put more torque into the drive
wheels.

I know this doesn't seem to be the short answer, but I have a draft paper on
this subject that covers 15 pages, and I ain't done yet :-).

Bruce
114.3'pends on if your "fat"..!MKOTS3::BEAUDET_TTom BeaudetFri Jul 02 1993 09:1011
....and Bruce knows about ...torque for sure...I on the other hand
I believe that if you've got a bunch of weight to move off the line...you need
bunches of torque...just to keep it in technical terms. :-)


Nice write up Bruce.  Please let us know when the Swamp Thing will debut at NED?

/tb/



114.4Nice write-up!COMPLX::C_WILLIAMSHammerWed Jul 07 1993 14:102
    
    Bruce, is this paper one you're writing or reading?
114.5SANTEE::AUGENSTEINWed Jul 07 1993 17:107
I'm writing it, sort of.

By that I mean I haven't looked at it since the weather got nice :-).

I'll probably finish it in January or somesuch.

Bruce
114.6The *loooong* answer :-)MROA::AUGENSTEINFri Feb 14 1997 10:19410
    It occurred to me that, although a significant subset of this post has
    been up on the Vettenet home page for at least a year, I forgot to post
    it here. If you can stand it, this is the more complete answer regarding
    horsepower and torque. Corrections and comments cheerfully received.
    
    Horsepower and Torque - A Primer
    --------------------------------
    OK. Here's the deal, in moderately plain language.
    
    Force, Work and Time
    --------------------
    If you have a one pound weight bolted to the floor, and try to lift it
    with one pound of force (or 10, or 50 pounds), you will have applied
    force and exerted energy, but no work will have been done. If you
    unbolt the weight, and apply a force sufficient to lift the weight one
    foot, then one foot pound of work will have been done. If that event
    takes a minute to accomplish, then you will be doing work at the rate
    of one foot pound per minute. If it takes one second to accomplish the
    task, then work will be done at the rate of 60 foot pounds per minute,
    and so on.
    
    In order to apply these measurements to automobiles and their
    performance (whether you're speaking of torque, horsepower, newton
    meters, watts, or any other terms), you need to address the three
    variables of force, work and time.
    
    Awhile back, a gentleman by the name of Watt (the same gent who did all
    that neat stuff with steam engines) made some observations, and
    concluded that the average horse of the time could lift a 550 pound
    weight one foot in one second, thereby performing work at the rate of
    550 foot pounds per second, or 33,000 foot pounds per minute - for an
    eight hour shift, more or less. He then published those observations,
    and stated that 33,000 foot pounds per minute of work was equivalent to
    the power of one horse, or, one horsepower.
    
    Everybody else said OK. :-)
    
    For purposes of this discussion, we need to measure units of force from
    rotating objects such as crankshafts, so we'll use terms which define a
    *twisting* force, such as foot pounds of torque. A foot pound of torque
    is the twisting force necessary to support a one pound weight on a
    weightless horizontal bar, one foot from the fulcrum.
    
    Now, it's important to understand that nobody on the planet ever
    actually measures horsepower from a running engine. What we actually
    measure (on a dynomometer) is torque, expressed in foot pounds (in the
    U.S.), and then we *calculate* actual horsepower by converting the
    twisting force of torque into the work units of horsepower.
    
    Visualize that one pound weight we mentioned, one foot from the fulcrum
    on its weightless bar. If we rotate that weight for one full revolution
    against a one pound resistance, we have moved it a total of 6.2832 feet
    (Pi * a two foot circle), and, incidently, we have done 6.2832 foot
    pounds of work.
    
    OK. Remember Watt? He said that 33,000 foot pounds of work per minute
    was equivalent to one horsepower. If we divide the 6.2832 foot pounds
    of work we've done per revolution of that weight into 33,000 foot
    pounds, we come up with the fact that one foot pound of torque at 5252
    rpm is equal to 33,000 foot pounds per minute of work, and is the
    equivalent of one horsepower. If we only move that weight at the rate
    of 2626 rpm, it's the equivalent of 1/2 horsepower (16,500 foot pounds
    per minute), and so on. Therefore, the following formula applies for
    calculating horsepower from a torque measurement:
    
                                    Torque * RPM
            Horsepower      =       ------------
                                        5252
    
    This is not a debatable item. It's the way it's done. Period.
    
    The Case For Torque
    -------------------
    Now, what does all this mean in carland?
    
    First of all, from a driver's perspective, torque, to use the
    vernacular, RULES :-). Any given car, in any given gear, will
    accelerate at a rate that *exactly* matches its torque curve (allowing
    for increased air and rolling resistance as speeds climb). Another way
    of saying this is that a car will accelerate hardest at its torque peak
    in any given gear, and will not accelerate as hard below that peak, or
    above it. Torque is the only thing that a driver feels, and horsepower
    is just sort of an esoteric measurement in that context. 300 foot
    pounds of torque will accelerate you just as hard at 2000 rpm as it
    would if you were making that torque at 4000 rpm in the same gear, yet,
    per the formula, the horsepower would be *doubled* at 4000 rpm.
    Therefore, horsepower isn't particularly meaningful from a driver's
    perspective, and the two numbers only get friendly at 5252
    rpm, where horsepower and torque always come out the same.
    
    In contrast to a torque curve (and the matching pushback into your
    seat), horsepower rises rapidly with rpm, and especially so when torque
    values are also climbing. Horsepower will continue to climb, however,
    until well past the torque peak, and will continue to rise as engine
    speed climbs, until the torque curve really begins to plummet, faster
    than engine rpm is rising. This is a key point. If you mess about with
    the formula, you can see that, as long as torque values aren't dropping
    at a rate that is as great or greater than the rise in rpm, horsepower
    will climb.
    
    However, as I said, horsepower has nothing to do with what a driver
    *feels*.
    
    You don't believe all this?
    
    Fine. Take your non turbo car (turbo lag muddles the results) to its
    torque peak in first gear, and punch it. Notice the belt in the back?
    Now take it to the power peak, and punch it. Notice that the belt in
    the back is a bit weaker? Fine. Can we go on, now? :-)
    
    The Case For Horsepower
    -----------------------
    OK. If torque is so all-fired important, why do we care about
    horsepower?
    
    Because (to quote Eric Goehl), "It's better to make torque at high rpm
    than at low rpm, because you can take advantage of *gearing*".
    
    For an extreme example of this, I'll leave carland for a moment, and
    describe a waterwheel I got to watch awhile ago. This was a pretty
    massive wheel (built a couple of hundred years ago), rotating lazily on
    a shaft which was connected to the works inside a flour mill. Working
    some things out from what the people in the mill said, I was able to
    determine that the wheel typically generated about 2600(!) foot pounds
    of torque. I had clocked its speed, and determined that it was rotating
    at about 12 rpm. If we hooked that wheel to, say, the drivewheels of a
    car, that car would go from zero to twelve rpm in a flash, and the
    waterwheel would hardly notice :-).
    
    On the other hand, twelve rpm of the drivewheels is around one mph for
    the average car, and, in order to go faster, we'd need to gear it up.
    In fact, gearing up (so as to increase the speed of the output), means
    that you lose torque at the output in a proportional manner. That is,
    if you gear up the output for twice the speed, you lose half the torque
    at the output, and so on.
    
    To get to 60 mph would require gearing the wheel up enough so that it
    would be effectively making a little over 43 foot pounds of torque at
    the output (one sixtieth of the direct torque), which is not only a
    relatively small amount, it's less than what the average car would need
    in order to actually get to 60. Applying the conversion formula gives
    us the facts on this. Twelve times twenty six hundred, over five
    thousand two hundred fifty two gives us:
    
    6 HP.
    
    Oops. Now we see the rest of the story. While it's clearly true that
    the water wheel can exert a *bunch* of force, its *power* (ability to
    do work over time) is severely limited.
    
    At The Dragstrip
    ----------------
    OK. Back to carland, and some examples of how horsepower makes a major
    difference in how fast a car can accelerate, in spite of what torque on
    your backside tells you :-).
    
    A very good example would be to compare the LT1 Corvette with the last
    of the L98 Vettes, built in 1991. Figures as follows:
    
            Engine          Peak HP @ RPM   Peak Torque @ RPM
            ------          -------------   -----------------
            L98             250 @ 4000      340 @ 3200
            LT1             300 @ 5000      340 @ 3600
    
    The cars are geared identically, and car weights are within a few
    pounds, so it's a good comparison.
    
    First, each car will push you back in the seat (the fun factor) with
    the same authority - at least at or near peak torque in each gear. One
    will tend to *feel* about as fast as the other to the driver, but the
    LT1 will actually be significantly faster than the L98, even though it
    won't pull any harder. If we mess about with the formula, we can begin
    to discover exactly *why* the LT1 is faster. Here's another slice at
    that formula:
    
                                    Horsepower * 5252
                    Torque  =       -----------------
                                          RPM
    
    If we plug some numbers in, we can see that the L98 is making 328 foot
    pounds of torque at its power peak (250 hp @ 4000), and we can infer
    that it cannot be making any more than 262 pound feet of torque at 5000
    rpm, or it would be making 250 hp or more at that engine speed, and
    would be so rated (262 foot pounds times 5000, over 5252 = 249 hp). If
    it were making 263 or more foot pounds of torque at 5000 rpm, it would
    be making 250 or more hp, and Chevrolet would likely publish the new
    peak figure. In actuality, the L98 is probably making no more than
    around 210 pound feet or so at 5000 rpm, and anybody who owns one would
    shift it at around 46-4700 rpm, because more torque is available at the
    drive wheels in the next gear at that point.
    
    (Note: This is a side point, but the optimum shift point for best
    acceleration occurs at a time when the torque at the drive wheels in
    the next gear just equals the torque at the drive wheels in the current
    gear. You shift way above the torque peak, and typically well past the
    power peak, because the next gear gives you less mechanical advantage
    (less torque multiplication) than the gear you're in. This usually
    means shifting at an engine speed of 10 - 15% above the power peak with
    two-valve engines, and at the redline in four-valve engines, or maybe
    the rev limiter :-). Any later than the optimum point and the
    decreasing torque in the current gear means you are at a disadvantage
    compared to being in the next gear, but any earlier means that you'll
    give up drive wheel torque, even if you're at the engine's torque peak
    in the next gear.)
    
    OK. Back to the hp vs torque comparison :-).
    
    As we've said, the L98 has dropped way off on torque by 5000 rpm, but
    on the other hand, the LT1 is fairly happy making 315 pound feet at
    5000 rpm (300 hp times 5252, over 5000), and is happy right up to its
    mid 5s redline.
    
    So, in a drag race, the cars would launch more or less together. The
    L98 might have a slight advantage due to its peak torque occurring a
    little earlier in the rev range, but that is debatable, since the LT1
    has a wider, flatter curve (again pretty much by definition, looking at
    the figures). From somewhere in the mid range and up, however, the LT1
    would begin to pull away. Where the L98 has to shift to second (and
    throw away torque multiplication for speed), the LT1 still has around
    another 1000 rpm to go in first, and thus begins to widen its lead,
    more and more as the speeds climb. As long as the revs are high, the
    LT1, by definition, has an advantage.
    
    Another example would be the LT1 against the ZR-1 Vette. Same deal,
    only in reverse. The ZR-1 actually pulls a little harder than the LT1,
    although its torque advantage (385 foot pounds at 5200 rpm) is softened
    somewhat by its extra weight. The real advantage, however, is that the
    ZR-1 has another 1500 rpm in hand at the point where the LT1 has to
    shift.
    
    There are numerous examples of this phenomenon. The Integra GS-R, for
    instance, is faster than the garden variety Integra, not because it
    pulls particularly harder (it doesn't), but because it pulls *longer*.
    It doesn't feel particularly faster, but it is.
    
    A final example of this requires your imagination. Figure that we can
    tweak an LT1 engine so that it still makes peak torque of 340 foot
    pounds at 3600 rpm, but, instead of the curve dropping off to 315 pound
    feet at 5000, we extend the torque curve so much that it doesn't fall
    off to 315 pound feet until 15000 rpm. OK, so we'd need to have
    virtually all the moving parts made out of unobtanium :-), and some
    sort of turbocharging on demand that would make enough high-rpm boost
    to keep the curve from falling, but hey, bear with me.
    
    If you raced a stock LT1 with this car, they would launch together,
    but, somewhere around the 60 foot point, the stocker would begin to
    fade, and would have to grab second gear shortly thereafter. Not long
    after that, you'd see in your mirror that the stocker has grabbed
    third, and not too long after that, it would get fourth, but you'd
    wouldn't be able to see that due to the distance between you as you
    crossed the line, *still in first gear*, and pulling like crazy.
    
    I've got a computer simulation that models an LT1 Vette in a quarter
    mile pass, and it predicts a 13.38 second ET, at 104.5 mph. That's
    pretty close (actually a bit conservative) to what a stock LT1 can do
    at 100% air density at a high traction drag strip, being powershifted.
    However, our modified car, while belting the driver in the back no
    harder than the stocker (at peak torque) does an 11.96, at 135.1 mph -
    all in first gear, of course. It doesn't pull any harder, but it sure
    as hell pulls longer :-). Of course, per the formula, it's also making
    *900* hp, at 15,000 rpm (315 foot pounds times 15000, over 5252).
    
    Of course, folks who are knowledgeable about drag racing are now openly
    snickering, because they've read the preceeding paragraph, and it
    occurs to them that any self respecting car that can get to 135 mph in
    a quarter mile will just naturally be doing this in less than ten
    seconds. Of course that's true, but I remind these same folks that any
    self-respecting engine that propels a Vette into the nines is also
    making a whole bunch more than 340 foot pounds of torque.
    
    That does bring up another point, though. Essentially, a more "real"
    Corvette running 135 mph in a quarter mile (maybe a mega big block)
    might be making 600 or more foot pounds of torque, and thus it would
    pull a whole bunch harder than my paper tiger would. It would need
    slicks and other modifications in order to turn that torque into
    forward motion, but it would also get from here to way over there a
    bunch quicker.
    
    On the other hand, as long as we're making quarter mile passes with
    fantasy engines, if we put a 10.35:1 final-drive gear (3.45 is stock)
    in our fantasy LT1, with slicks and other chassis mods, we'd be in the
    nines just as easily as the big block would, and thus save face :-).
    The mechanical advantage of such a nonsensical rear gear would allow
    our combination to pull just as hard as the big block, plus we'd get to
    do all that gear banging and such that real racers do, and finish in
    fourth gear, as God intends. :-)
    
    The only modification to the preceeding paragraph would be the polar
    moments of inertia (flywheel effect) argument brought about by such a
    stiff rear gear, and that rather massive topic is best addressed
    through a document of its own, though I'll take an abbreviated poke at
    it in the next several paragraphs.
    
    Suffice it to say that rotating objects tend to resist either
    acceleration or deceleration, and engine components are no exception.
    Gearing up (by either selecting first gear, or in fact tripling the
    final drive ratio) means that the engine and other rotating components
    have to speed up by a greater amount for every mph the vehicle gains,
    so more energy is expended in accelerating these items to gain a given
    amount of speed, and thus less energy is available to actually belt you
    in the back.
    
    As an operating example, measured with a Vericom, my old '85 Vette
    would pull .50 Gs at peak torque in its 1.91 second gear. With a 2.88
    first gear, one would expect it to pull around .75 Gs (2.88 over 1.91 =
    1.51, times .50 Gs = .75 Gs). It would actually pull a peak of .66 Gs
    in first gear. The difference can be attributed to a tad more tire slip
    (maybe sucking up .01 or .02G) and the fact that first gear is
    marginally less efficient than second in most transmissions, thereby
    sucking up another .01 G (or less), but the main reason that first
    won't pull as hard as you'd expect (in *any* car) is that the engine
    uses more energy accelerating itself in first than in second (to gain
    the same amount of speed), so you get less energy at the drive wheels
    than you would expect.
    
    As a by the way, that means that what I said about shift points awhile
    back needs to be modified a tad for flywheel effect, since actual
    available drive wheel torque is lessened a bit from what you'd expect
    while accelerating in the lower gear. As a practical matter, one might
    drop the one-two shift point by 5% from the calculated optimum, and
    less than that in subsequent shifts.
    
    In the example I used of the 900 hp LT1 using 10.35 gears, the car
    would drop into the nines for a quarter mile, but in so doing, the trap
    speed would climb to about 148 mph (in the computer model), because the
    car is essentially putting more average power to the track with the
    stiffer gearing. However, drag race nuts are snickering again, because
    any self-respecting car that can get to 148 mph in a quarter mile ought
    to be able to do this somewhere in the mid eight second bracket.
    
    Sigh.
    
    The reason this fantasy car doesn't get into the eights is that, in
    order to get it to effectively use its power, we had to gear it so
    stiffly that flywheel effect took a major toll from its relatively
    paltry 340 foot pounds of torque, and flywheel effect is most
    pronounced in the lower gears, so elapsed times suffer, while trap
    speeds are affected less.
    
    You can see why drag racers think torque is what wins races. It isn't
    strictly true, but high rpm, low torque cars are at a disadvantage in a
    drag race (as opposed to lower rpm, high torque cars) as long as
    overall power to weight is similar. This is because they either only
    start getting effective somewhere down track (thus crippling elapsed
    times), or they suffer greater flywheel effect if you gear them
    aggressively enough to create high torque at the drive wheels off the
    line (thus crippling elapsed times).
    
    What's really needed in a drag race is high torque (for that massive
    belt in the back) *and* high horsepower (extending the torque curve),
    so you can take advantage of gearing.
    
    Of course, looking for top speeds, it's a different story......
    
    At The Bonneville Salt Flats
    ----------------------------
    Looking at top speed, horsepower absolutely wins, in the sense that
    making more torque at high rpm means you can use a stiffer gear for any
    given car speed, and thus have more effective torque *at the drive
    wheels*. Remember, there isn't any flywheel effect at top speed because
    you're not accelerating.
    
    Finally, operating at the power peak means you are doing the absolute
    best you can at any given car speed, measuring torque at the drive
    wheels. I know I said that acceleration follows the torque curve in any
    given gear, but if you factor in gearing vs car speed, the power peak
    is *it*. An example, yet again, of the LT1 Vette will illustrate this.
    If you take it up to its torque peak (3600 rpm) in a gear, it will
    generate some level of torque (340 foot pounds times whatever overall
    gearing) at the drive wheels, which is the best it will do in that gear
    (meaning, that's where it is pulling hardest in that gear).
    
    However, if you re-gear the car so it is operating at the power peak
    (5000 rpm) *at the same car speed*, it will deliver more torque to the
    drive wheels, because you'll need to gear it up by nearly 39%
    (5000/3600), while engine torque has only dropped by a little over 7%
    (315/340). You'll net a 29% gain in drive wheel torque at the power
    peak vs the torque peak, at a given car speed.
    
    Any other rpm (other than the power peak) at a given car speed will net
    you a lower torque value at the drive wheels. This would be true of any
    car on the planet, so, theoretical "best" top speed will always occur
    when a given vehicle is operating at its power peak.
    
    "Modernizing" The 18th Century
    ------------------------------
    OK. For the final-final point (Really. I Promise.), what if we ditched
    that water wheel, and bolted an LT1 in its place? Now, no LT1 is going
    to be making over 2600 foot pounds of torque (except possibly for a
    single, glorious instant, running on nitromethane), but, assuming we
    needed 12 rpm for an input to the mill, we could run the LT1 at 5000
    rpm (where it's making 315 foot pounds of torque), and gear it down to
    a 12 rpm output. Result? We'd have over *131,000* foot pounds of torque
    to play with. We could probably twist the whole flour mill around the
    input shaft, if we needed to :-).
    
    The Only Thing You Really Need to Know
    --------------------------------------
    Repeat after me. "It's better to make torque at high rpm than at low
    rpm, because you can take advantage of *gearing*." For any given level
    of torque, making it at a higher rpm means you increase horsepower -
    and now we all know just exactly what that means, don't we :-).
    
    Thanks for your time.
    
    Bruce