Conference napalm::musclecars

    
    Well TB, you may stir up a hornet's nest with this question -
    but here's my opinion.
    
    I like musclecars because as a kid I clearly remember oggling
    Superbirds, Shelby's and Cougar Eliminators on the roads.  Sadly,
    unlike Skip Readio, I was too young to buy one of these cars new,
    but always dreamed of the day I could.
    
    That day came first in 1984 when a very clean '68 Impala SS427 came my
    way for a mere $1300.  I enjoyed that car to the extent my college
    depleted bank account allowed, and sold it about 18 months later for
    $5,300.  Sure the profits were nice, had I kept the car and sold it in
    1989 or 1990 I probably could have recieved $9-10,000 for it.  The
    point is - the profit was a perk - not the reason I bought the car.
    
    The same applies for my current '69 428cj Cougar.  Sure, it's nice to
    know I could probably double my money on resale, but again , thats 
    far secondary in my mind.
    
    I'd be willing to bet that 90+% of the Musclecar noters feel the same.
    Read the musclecar stories note and you will find common threads in
    each reply.  Love of speed, sense of tradition, etc.
    
    So, buy it, restore it, drive it, enjoy it.  If you make money on
    resale - icing on the cake.
    
    Tom

    
    	The only thing you could lose more money on then buying a muscle
    	car in 1989 would be buying dec stock! Hold that, I forgot
    	about real estate. Of course I bought three cars
    	that year along with dec stock. According to auction sales 
    	results some muscle cars are down as much as 40%. I suppose
    	it could have been worse, I was seriously considering a house
    	instead of the cars :-).   Anyway I agree with allot of what
    	Tom is saying. You just can't be in it for the money. Figure
    	in insurance, gas, upkeep etc. and you really won't make any
    	money unless you find a yenko in a barn for 2 grand.
    	
    	The fact is anyway, the things that end up being the best 
    	investments are the things that you get laughed at for.	
    	Like buying a Hemi Cuda in 1974 for about 1000 bucks
    	because of the oil embargo.
    	Or like Bob Barre (of NH speedway fame) paying 250K for a
    	34 Packard Lebaron V12 DC back in 81. Everyone was chuckling over
    	that, of course the car is an easy 7 figures+ now.
    
    
    			- A.J.

	I agree.  I think the number one reason to buy a muscle car
	is for the fun.  The investment is secondary but A GREAT
	ADVANTAGE.

	I view the "musclecar investment" as having two angles to it:

	1)  Why buy a new car that is going to drop a good percentage
	in value the second you sign all of the paperwork for it?  For
	the same price, and more-than-likely LOWER price, you can get
	a musclecar that is going to go up in value and be more
	enjoyable.  The only arguement for a new car, that I can see,
	is the warrenty.  But I'd still lean towards a musclecar purchase
	since most such vehicles aren't as complicated to work on and
	after the new car warrenty expires, the musclecare will be
	cheaper to work on (well, depending on the car and the rarity).
	I particularly don't like being like everyone else.  Most new
	cars look the same to me and I prefer being different.  Plus
	I like the attention from a good muslecar, the power availability,
	and the bimbo babes they attract!  HA-HA-HA!!

	2)  Another good investment is the musclecar fixer-upper.  You
	can still find some good deals on beaters that need fixing up.
	In this sense, however, you have to weigh your time invested,
	whether or not you're going to do the work necessary or pay
	someone else, parts availability, market direction, etc.  I have
	a friend who has made a small fortune by buying, restoring, and
	selling Ford Shelby Mustangs.  He started out with the basic
	Mustangs and built up from there.  And A.J., this guy once found
    	a Shelby in a chicken coop in #3 condition and bought it from the
    	old lady for $1000!  The best deal I've come across is a '69 GTO
    	Judge Convertible that a buddy of mine picked up for $2,000 from
    	some guy who just had it rotting away in his back yard!  In the
    	condition it was in (#5) it was worth $20,000!!!  Fixed up correctly,
    	it could grab $75K!  He won't be selling this one though.  We have
    	found about a dozen similar vehicles that are worth maybe half that
    	and are in fact running out to pick up a '67 GTO HO Convertible in
    	two hours.  We're getting it for some parts-swapping and it's value
	runs currently from $6K to $22K.  But the point is, you can make
	some good money this way if you're willing to invest the time and
	money.


	Hammer
                 

    
    
    Hammer,
    
    	I agree that you can still find the deals. But the chances that
    	the average smuck is going to be able to find a car and make
    	money are slim.  Most people wound't know what to look for, or if
    	they did they wouldn't know wether they were actually being taken
    	for a ride or not.
    
    	I have to disagree with you on the primary transportation argument.
    	I put about 30K a year on my car and a musclemobile just wouldn't
    	hold up. Plus the 10mpg would really start to hurt. That argument
    	makes more sense in the context of buying a 91 vette or buying
    	a 67 where your really getting the car for enjoyment.
    		
    	Oh yeah, I must have told you guys about my buddy who bought the
    	the Boss429 last year for 5K, complete but in baskets. He sold
    	it within 4 hours for 10K. He could have made more.
    
    				- A.J.
    
    
    				
    

    
    
    	Ya, good point.  As a "daily driver" you don't want a musclecar.
    	I neglected that point - a big point.
    
    	And yes, the average shmuck will find it hard to get great deals.
    	BTW - this weekend I found a '63 389 SD Tempest w/ the aluminum front
    	end.  I believe there were only 8 made, and 8 wagons.  This idiot
    	that has it is parting it out and sold the aluminum pieces for
    	$5K.  He could have made $30K on them and $250K on the whole car
    	if it's an original (I'm still trying to find out if it is but the
    	aluminum definitely was).  To give you an idea of what these cars
    	are worth, I know another guy that has an aluminum front end with
    	a butchered hood (some dufus put a scoop in it) and he is selling
    	it "as is" for $20K - just the aluminum pieces!!  He also has one
    	of the original 8 Tempests in mint condition and just turned down
    	an offer of $380,000!!!  YOW!  I also found a connection to what
    	sounds like the 8th (and assumed lost) of 8 '69� Trans Am
    	Convertibles.  Unfortunately, the guy who owns it knows what it's
    	worth.  Still worth seeing.
    
    
    	Hammer.

    
    
    Hammer,
    
    	I would think you could fabricate the aluminum parts with out 
    	a whole lot of difficulty. The toughest part is documenting
    	the originality of the car.
    
    	As for those prices of 380K or 250K, take everything with a grain
    	of salt. Every once in a while a single car that is special for
    	some reason hooks up with a fool at an auction that establishes
    	some ridiculous upper extreme that immediately becomes the price
    	for everybody else. This very rarely happens. Also, ignore anyone
    	that tells you stuff like "yeah, I was offered 50K last year 
    	but I want it to go to a good home, so you can have it for 40". 
    	
    
    					- A.J.
    

    
    AJ,
    
    Doubt that the aluminum pieces could be easily fabricated!
    We're talkings fenders, hood, and bumpers!  Some aluminum brackets
    or trim, sure, no sweat -- but panel fab takes experience and
    big dollar equipment.  
    
    Tom

>    
>    	Ya, good point.  As a "daily driver" you don't want a musclecar.
>    	I neglected that point - a big point.
>

What's wrong with driving a muscle car as a daily driver?  I bought mine 
brand new in 'February of '68 and drove it every day until January of '72 
when I took it off the road w/ 122,000 miles on it.

When it goes back on the road it'll have valve seat inserts and I'll run it 
on 93 or 94 octane unleaded and drive it like I used to when I first got it.

Points, plugs, filters, oil changes, lube jobs and frequent washing is all 
it takes to make it last another 100,000 miles.  It's just another 
production line automobile.  The only difference is the drivetrain and all 
factory-stock musclecars would outlast the standard warranty if they 
weren't beat on all the time.  They'd even outlast the warranty if they 
were beat on in a sensible manner.  Mine got raced on Sundays at Lebanon 
Valley and that never took any toll on the drivetrain.  I didn't let the 
car spend it's time dealing with excessive wheel hop like a lot of others I 
knew back then so I didn't break things.  Too many people didn't know how 
to extract the performance and they tended to destroy their cars.  Me, I 
beat most of them at the track and I wasn't back at the dealer on the 
following Monday getting me car fixed.

...now, my roller-cammed hemi is a different story.  That engine needs a 
lot of frequent mechanical maintenance (valve lash adjustments).

    
    
    Skip, if only because the 10 miles to the gallon will kill ya, I don't
    	think muscle cars make good daily drivers. I'll qualify that and
    	say "muscle cars don't make good daily drivers if you have to drive
    	any distance to work, like me!"
    
    
    Tom, I guess that I was mixing allot of thoughts at once which gets 
    	 dangerous. I'm fairly sure I could have one of those front ends
    	 exactly dupilcated for around 20 large ones, maybe less if
    	 I want to have a few of them made.  So if you don't pay allot
    	 for the car to begin with, say 10K, and its legit worth 100k or
    	 more, than your doin all right. You'll note that this is depends
    	 on picking up a legit car with no front end for cheap bucks.
    
    
    	 Hey, did any of you guys get over to Endicott yesterday? If you
    	 happened to see the Duesy, thats the same guy thats doin my
    	 Shelby. If your looking for perfection, I would recommend him
    	 to anyone. Problem is most people aren't, (and shouldn't) be
    	 looking for it to be perfect.
    
    			- A.J.
    	 

    
    RE .6:  AJ - yes, some people do run up the prices.  I even paid
    	about 30% more for my firebird than it was worth.
    	    As for the Aluminum pieces - no, they are very tough to
    	fab.  Hoods in general are not easy.  Even worse, this car had
    	some headlight/grille bezel that took the entire width of the
    	car for both headlights and was very tricky.  I don't know what
    	the piece is called.
    
    RE .8:  If my firebird were in good enough shape (I need to rebuild
    	the tranny), I'd use it as a daily driver.  But since this topic
    	is about investments, I would note that I don't consider my 'bird
    	as an investment.  I wouldn't even think of driving something
    	like the Judge convertible as a daily driver though.  That would
    	be crazy.  Besides the wear and tear, as an investment vehicle,
    	you couldn't afford to have anything stolen or broken off of it.
    
    RE .9:  Endicott, New York?
    
    
    	Hammer.

    
    
    	Hammer,
    
    		You know, the more I think about it, you guys might
    	be right about the aluminum. I've seen allot of fab work for
    	fenders and bodies. But this was all pre-40's stuff. A hood
    	that is a two piece press with creases and stuff might be a nightmare.
    	I guess the fact that they get so much for the original stuff
    	only illustrates that.
    
    	As for paying to much, don't sweat it. Thats were the enjoyment
    	factor makes up for it. If it was stocks or something like that
    	its hard to make it up on fun.
    
    		- A.J.

    
 (.9)    
>    	 Hey, did any of you guys get over to Endicott yesterday? If you
>    	 happened to see the Duesy, thats the same guy thats doin my
>    	 Shelby. If your looking for perfection, I would recommend him
>    	 to anyone. Problem is most people aren't, (and shouldn't) be
>    	 looking for it to be perfect.
    
    
	Is there a town "Endicott" in Mass?  I grew up in Endicott, New
        York.  That's where my buddy is that restores the Shelby's.    	 

      If you have a special rare musclecar I would not recomend it for
    a daily driver, but otherwise why not?  There will be wear and tear,
    and the mileage can be lousy, but when weighed against the cost of
    new vehicles I feel it is worth it.  I drive my '70 Grand Prix every
    day, and I travel 32 miles to work one way.  I don't have radical rear
    gears (3.23) though and that can make a world of difference.
    
    Rich

>    	 happened to see the Duesy, thats the same guy thats doin my
>    	 Shelby. If your looking for perfection, I would recommend him


...and who might that be?

    
    
    The Endicott estate in Dedham Ma. Nice Place! There had to be
    at least 800 or more cars.
    
    Skip,
    		The guy's name is Byard Libbey. The name of the
    	shop is Libbey's Classic Car Restoration Center. Its
    	in Shrewsbury down on the lake. He's a 
    	close friend so you gotta figure I'm biased, but I would
    	his work up against anybody. He's big on this "if its worth
    	doin once its worth doin right" idea. Which I know most of
    	us would agree on except his idea of 'right' most people
    	have no conception of and don't really need to.
    
    			- A.J.

I thought it might have been Al Rogers from Charlton.

    
    Skip,
    
    Musclecars sure may have been fine drivers in the late sixties,
    very early seventies -- but I sure as hell wouldn't want to drive my
    Cobrajet on a daily basis.  The fuel consumption would kill me, and
    frankly the car isn't as comfortable as my late model drivers.
    
    Tom

    
    Oh yeah,  I think that panel referred to a few back is called
    the header panel.  Tough to fabricate even with a wheel.
    
    However, I have been able to reproduce some smaller trim for the
    Cougar -- and it's better than original if I might say 8^)
    
    Tom

    
    Skip,
    
    	nope. Al Rogers has an incredible shop, though. I can't attest
    	to any of his work but he sure advertises like crazy. 
    
    	And I still don't believe you can really use a musclecar as
    	an everyday driver. Especially if your really driving 60, 70
    	miles a day like me.
    
    	Now, a 289 Mustang you could probably get away with, but a 428
    	Cougar is gonna hurt.
    
    	- A.J.

    
    	I agree for that kind of distance.  I have to run 94 octane
    	leaded that costs me $1.65 right now.  Assume something like
    	10 miles per gallon and 50 miles per day to and from work...
    	...that adds up to $165 per month JUST for going to and from
    	work!  Then add in the weekend little girl hunts, cars and
    	parts hunting, lunch driving, etc, etc!  Man that can run
    	some dollars!  THEN add in the wear and tear on such a vehicle
    	such as "gee, why does it sound like everybody in this notes
    	file rebuilds their engines so much?"  I guess there would
    	have to be a median of when a muscle car would be worth it
    	(it would then also depend on the value of the car, i.e., the
    	cost of the wear and tear) or when a new car would be worth
    	it.  I also guess it would have to be up to the individual to
    	add in the fun factor and the comfort factor.
    
    
    	Hammer.

    
    	Good topic !  I recently bought a '79 Trans Am with 56,000 mi.
    	for a very good price.  It is gold (only 2 years for this color),
    	and the body has no rust, zero, noda, none. It was a southern
    	car.  It has the honeycomb wheels and 6.6 litre, 403 Olds. It
    	will need paint someday and some TLC on a very good interior.
    	It will need tires next summer. It's an auto, no air, no t-tops.
    	I bought the car to make money on but have fallen in love with
    	it.  Anybody care to estimate its value, not book, but real
    	value/worth.  The car is a lot of fun to drive, and turns a lot
    	of heads.  Is this car worth keeping, I already have 2 Vette's
    	one show, one driver.  Its cheap to insure, and doesn't owe me
    	anything, but I have been offered a good price on it.  It is
    	an all original car, down to the hose clamps. Never been hit,
    	runs great and shifts like a dream.  Should I keep it or sell ?
    	Any suggestions/oppinions welcomed.
    
    							,Frank

    
    
    Three years ago I sold a 1980 Z28 with 350-4spd. Loaded with everything
    but t-tops and option interior. The car had 68K miles on it. It was
    nice. I ended up getting 3600.00 for it. I'am not sure if prices have
    gone up or down since then. They probably haven't gone up much since
    most musclecars are down.
    
    
    			- A.J.

    
    
    	Welcome to the world of Pontiacs, Frank!     8-)
    
    	Frankly, Frank, if I find a good deal and know I can unload it
    	for some bucks, I get rid of it before I have that bug to keep
    	it.  Tough to do sometimes.  Unless it's an extremely rare car
    	then I'd hold it until I NEED the cash.  Look into Hemmings Motor
    	News and see what other people are pricing them at.  I'd like to
    	know myself.
    
    
    	Hammer.

    
    		Thanks for the replies guys.  It's tough to do, but
    	I'm going to sell it.  I will make a decent profit on the car,
    	but the guy buying it is making a good deal also.  I looked in
    	a magazine called " PONTIAC " and saw some of the prices this
    	car is going for, HE'S GETTING A GOOD DEAL !  But he is a 
    	friend, who will take good care of it, and give me visiting
    	privilages.  I can take the profit and put it into other play
    	cars.  This car buying/selling stuff can be an emotional problem
    	when you "fall in love" with the cars.  I guess both of us will
    	end up with a good deal, but I'll kick myself if this turns out
    	to be one of those " I never new it was going to be worth THAT
    	MUCH, I should have kept it."  But I have a long list of previous
    	cars that I wish I still had, I would need an acre to store all
    	of them....
    		Thanks again.
    
    		I wonder how much they want for that blue Firebird down
    	the road...........................hmmmmmmmmmmmmm   ;^}
    
    							,Franko 

    
    
    The latest find:
    
    	  a '69 GTO RAIV CONVERTIBLE (one of 47 or so), for $1000 !!
    
    
    	8-)

    My parents have a 1980 Turbo Trans Am Indy Pace Car.  
    No decals on the sides.
    Original miles: very low 30k's.
    Automatic trans, t-tops, air-conditioning.
    
    They'd sell it if they can "get enough for it".

    Anyone have a clue to value ?
    Should I find a copy of the Hemming Motor News?
    
    Bill