Conference 7.286::sports_90

    Nebraska- #1., cause they are undefeated, and to win #1, will have to
    earn it against some good teams.
    
    Washington- #2., cause the Huskies have only one close loss, against
    Colorado, killed two strong teams, Oregon and USC, and have the top
    defense against the run in the country.  

    
    	The one with the best record reguardless of schedule. Or the one
    with the biggest booster club..a.k.a $$$$$.
    
    B.A.

Why do I think this note is gonna turn into a giant rathole....

Until there is a comprehensive playoff set up, we're gonna have
to suffer with the inadequacies of the system as is....  Which
means everyone loses, and no one is truly number one, because of
the constant arguing and bickering that the system creates.

In baseball, you win or lose the Series, in football there's the
Super Bowl, hell, even rugby has its Final Four...
College Football is one of the few sports I know of where it's
#1 comes so into question....

My choice?

Simple, it's

Wesleyan!


'Saw

                    
    The winner of this weekend's Notre Dame-Miami game should vault to the
    top... unless Auburn beats Florida State, then I might go with them.
    
    Unfortunately, what happens on January 1 depends all too much on the
    rankings *now*.
    
    glenn
    

    
    UVa will lost to GaTech... so there's no need to worry about them.
    

    It *is* worth worrying about now, cuz the college game has been
    thrown into a crisis of conscience with the all-too-successful
    craven pandering risk avoidence strategy of the womanly Cavaliers
    (O what a_appropriate nickname!).  It's time the subject was hammered
    out and better guidlines are established to preclude rip-off jobs
    like what happened yesterday, which was tantamount to a pencil-necked
    geek with a cleptomania problem being chosen to artificially inseminate
    the Queen.
    
    Let's take a quick drive down Reality Lane:
    
    1. Nebraska		Best defense in history?
    2. Tennessee	These kids are gooooood.
    3. Michigan		Great young team that got hosed.
    4. Washington	In real world could win it all.
    5. Miami		But cain they win big game on road?
    
    MrT

AP says:
	1	Virginia (38)	6-0-0	1,454
	2	Miami (15)	4-1-0	1,414
	3	Tennessee (2)	4-0-2	1,354
	4	Nebraska (3)	6-0-0	1,258
	5	Auburn		4-0-1	1,238

UPI says:
	1	Virginia (29)		785
	2	Miami (7)		736
	3	Nebraska (13)		712
	4	Tennessee (3)		679
	5	Auburn (2)		584

TTom

Well, here are the remaining schedules for the pretenders to the crown.
Notice the cup cake schedule that Virginia has, the snack cake schedule
Miami has and the big10 loser schedule Michigan has left.  Colorado and 
Nebraska have to play each other, plus Oklahoma, but other than that it's 
cream puff time.  Auburn has Florida State and Florida left, Tennessee
has ND and that's it - pretty cream puff there, and ND has the #2, #4, and #11
teams left on their schedule, plus Penn State.

Virginia:  Wake Forest, Geo.Tech, UNC,Maryland, VA. Tech
Miami:  Notre Dame, Texas Tech, Pitt, Boston College, Syracuse, San Diego St.
Nebraska: Ok.State, Iowa State, Colorado, Kansas, Oklahoma
Tennessee: Alabama, Temple, Notre Dame, Miss, Kentucky, Vandy
Auburn:  Florida St, Miss St, Florida, So. Miss, Georgia, Bama
Notre Dame: Miami, Pitt, Navy, Tennessee, Penn State, USC
Michigan:  Iowa,Indiana, Purdue, Illinois, Minnesota, Ohio St.
Colorado:  Kansas,Oklahoma,Nebraska, Oklahoma St, Kansas St
Florida St: Auburn,LSU,So.Carolina,Cincinnati,Memphis St, Florida

Schedule favors Miami (if they beat ND, they are home free and into cupcake
time_, Virginia (should stay unbeaten), Tennessee (if they beat Notre Dame)
Notre Dame has the toughest schedule by far, having Miami this week, then 
Tennessee at Tenn, Penn State, and USC at USC.

JD

    Couple of baffling facts:
    
    o Virginia hasn't lost.
    
    o Georgia Tech hasn't lost.
    
    o Both teams have played comparable schedules.
    
    How in the h*ll can Virginia be considered a "contender" and Tech
    can't?!
    
    Makes no sense.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    Right now I say Tennessee should be #1. If they can stay undefeated
    then for sure they should be #1. UVA, I have a feeling will lose to
    G.A.Tech. 
    
    If Maimi beats ND this weekend, look for them to leapfrog to the #1
    spot, if they get beat then look for ND to bounce back in the top 5 or
    possibly top 3.
    
    It's too early too say right now. In all reality, I feel University of
    South Carolina should be #1, but that is a biased opinion!! :-) :-)
    Nobody fall off their chairs, I'm only kidding!!!
    
                                               M.J.

Here's the power ratings of JD's Pretenders. They're from USA Today and
they have the power ratings of the teams left on the schedule and the
average of these.

Pretender          PR   Avg PR of Opp.  Pretender          PR   Avg PR of Opp.
--------------------------------------  --------------------------------------
Virginia           98.02   76.25        Miami-Fl           95.43   76.78
   Wake Forest        68.15                Notre Dame         87.79
   Georgia Tech       88.66                Texas Tech         75.98
   No Carolina        72.29                Pittsburgh         76.05
   Maryland           77.16                Boston College     69.24
   Va Tech            75.00                Syracuse           79.25
                                        San Diego St       72.39
 
Nebraska           95.59   76.55        Tennessee          94.68   72.56
   Oklahoma St        67.66                Alabama            80.84
   Iowa St            71.35                Temple             64.49
   Colorado           86.20                Notre Dame         87.79
   Kansas             68.89                Mississippi        77.16
   Oklahoma           88.63                Kentucky           68.73
                                           Vanderbilt         56.35
 
Auburn             85.25   79.97        Notre Dame         87.79   82.78
   Florida St         90.90                Miami-Fl           95.43
   Mississippi St     70.99                Pittsburgh         76.05
   Florida            84.72                Navy               58.74
   Southern Miss      78.83                Tennessee          94.68
   Georgia            73.52                Penn St            83.95
   Alabama            80.84                Southern Cal       87.84
 
Michigan           89.69   77.64        Colorado           86.20   77.78
   Iowa               81.73                Kansas             68.89
   Indiana            86.44                Oklahoma           88.63
   Purdue             65.84                Nebraska           95.59
   Illinois           84.09                Oklahoma St        67.66
   Minnesota          67.29                Kansas St          68.12
   Ohio St            80.45
 
Florida St         90.90   74.90
   Auburn             85.25
   LSU                75.67
   So Carolina        82.49
   Cincinnati         50.49
   Memphis St         70.78
   Florida            84.72

    
    Of course the "remaining schedule" angle omits a couple of very
    important factors-- like the strength of the opponents already faced.
    In Miami's (BYU, Florida St.), Michigan's (Notre Dame, UCLA, Michigan
    St.), Tennessee's (Colorado, Auburn), and Colorado's (Tennessee, 
    Stanford, Illinois, Texas, Washington) cases, that's significant.  It's 
    no mystery that the games up front are usually non-conference games, 
    which to a large extent defines the toughness of schedule, especially
    if you participate in a second-tier conference like the ACC or SWC.
    
    Good question about Georgia Tech's ranking, which I mentioned earlier.
    What we effectively have in the ACC is Virginia, Tech, and Clemson
    playing a three-way round robin to determine which team will reap the
    spoils come New Year's Day.  The toughest non-conference opponent that
    *any* of these three teams play is (take your pick) South Carolina or
    Georgia.  Guess which two of the ACC teams plays both and guess which
    one plays neither?  For all we know all three ACC teams are pretenders, 
    because factors like average height and weight on the lines and times in 
    the 40 at the skill positions become almost as important going into the 
    bowls than actual results on the field (affectionately known as the 
    "Michigan Syndrome", for consistently high rankings based on perceived 
    physical talent over actual performance).
    
    As for Miami, which is a team that *does* need to play a competitive
    schedule in order to make money and generally *wants* to, I'll make the
    point that I've made before: no one wants to play them, so they get
    who they can (and even that isn't exactly a travesty).  Off the top of
    my head, Oklahoma, Penn State, Florida, Michigan, and next year Notre
    Dame (a pretty impressive collection) all jumped off a bandwagon that
    Miami wanted to continue, when those teams realized they weren't 
    getting what they bargained for pre-1980.  I don't like Miami, either,
    but in fairness they're more a victim (especially financially) than a 
    beneficiary of this system.  The practical banishment to this Big East
    football pseudo-conference is more proof of Miami's predicament (a
    possible working relationship with the SWC-- wow!).
    
    glenn
                                                     

    re: .-1  (Why even worry at all, now or Jan 2?)
    
    If this were college basketball I'd totally agree with you.  The polls
    don't mean a dag-blammed thing, cause a tournament selects the
    national champion.  
    
    But in football the same bad method of deciding who's number one now
    will decide who's number one at the end of the season, and hence the
    "National Champion".
    
    Bad.  Very bad.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    College Football - Who's #1?
    
    It's usually a kicker, sometimes a QB.
    
    	--dan'l

ACC, you'll soon be receiving a package from me, marked
"Do Not Open Until Jan 1, 1991"

Place the package in a cool, dark place, and DON'T OPEN IT.

On January 1, 1991, open it, and eat heartily of the SPORTshrooms
you'll find inside.

Sit back, watch the colors flow.  Don't be surprised if a lot of
stuff turns baby blue, that's to be expected.  After a while,
Jimi will probably show up to rap with you for a bit, and lately,
Otis Redding has been makin' the rounds, and occasionally Muddy
Waters makes an appearance....

Invite them to watch the Bowl games with you.  (Don't talk hoops
with Jimi, he doesn't like basketball)...

By the end of the day, if they're still there, have a couple of
beers with them.  When they leave, sit back, and wonder what you
ever worried about anything for....

HTH,
'Saw 8^)

    
    
    re: Sagarin
    
    Sagarin's system is probably as good as it cain be, but its
    major self-correction component is cross-referencing outside
    competition and is thus probably failing badly in the case
    of the 3 Almost Close "quality" teams.  None of them play any
    tough competition apart from each other, and Sagarin's system
    is thereby stuck almost totally relying on preseason seeds, 
    which is more a matter of PR than anything real.  
    
    ACC, the answer to the question you axed is that Virgina had a
    good preseason seed and Tech wasn't so good.  Given that each
    plays a vaccum schedule they're susceptible to the vagaries of
    a system which forms important conclusions based on simple W-L
    records with little or no regard to Reality.  But Tech has no
    room for complaint, for it is very likely that if they played 
    anybody tough they wouldn't be where they are in the first place.
    
    JD, I disagree with your observation that Miami has a cupcake
    walk after Notre Shame.  Texas Tech, sPitt, and SyrExcuse all
    have proven that they cain be quite dangerous against tough
    competition.  SyrExcuse and Tech especially are young but talented
    and represent potential trouble for Miami or anybody, ftm.  
    
    No, JD, a true cupcake walk would be playing the likes of Navy
    and Wm. & Mary and Virgina Tech and Duke and North Carolina...
    You get the picture.
    
    Big10 Tom

    MrT,
    Texas Tech is 1-4 this year, and not playing well.  Pittwas destroyed
    by Oklahoma early and hasn't recovered.  Syracuse is good, but not
    great.  Fact is, Miami plays 0 ranked opponents after Notre Dame.
    Hence my bakery reference.
    
    I do agree that Miami's schedule is tougher than Virginia....
    
    JD

>    Sagarin's system is probably as good as it cain be, but its
>    major self-correction component is cross-referencing outside
>    competition and is thus probably failing badly in the case
>    of the 3 Almost Close "quality" teams.  None of them play any
>    tough competition apart from each other, and Sagarin's system
>    is thereby stuck almost totally relying on preseason seeds, 
>    which is more a matter of PR than anything real.  
    
>    ACC, the answer to the question you axed is that Virgina had a
>    good preseason seed and Tech wasn't so good.  Given that each
>    plays a vaccum schedule they're susceptible to the vagaries of
>    a system which forms important conclusions based on simple W-L
>    records with little or no regard to Reality.  But Tech has no
>    room for complaint, for it is very likely that if they played 
>    anybody tough they wouldn't be where they are in the first place.

     I can't really agree with the above.  I strongly agree that the
     schedules of each of the ACC contenders is weak.  Virginia plays
     no one difficult outside of the conference, even recognizing that
     VPI is an in-state rival.  Tech played South Carolina when they
     were ranked near the bottom of the Top 25 list, but otherwise have
     an easy non-conference schedule.  Clemson also has South Carolina
     on their schedule, but the Gamecocks haven't proven to be tough.
     Weak schedules indeed.

     Nevertheless, both Virginia and Tech have quality teams, no matter
     what T says about them.  Virginia has a very stron offense, especially
     at the skill positions.  Shawn Moore is ranked by most scouts as one
     of the top five QB's in the country.  Herman Moore is projected by
     many pro scouts as the first WR to be picked in next year's draft,
     and is rated by everyone I have seen or read as one of the top 3 receivers
     in the draft.  They are the best of a very talented group on offense,
     and the Cavaliers would score well against just about anyone, I suspect.

     Tech's offensive line is huge, biggest in the ACC, and comparable to
     every line I've seen so far this year on nationally televised games,
     Miami, Michigan, Notre Dame included.  No one pushes them around.  Their
     defensive backfield is exceptionally good, with Ken Swilling as the top
     secondary player in the South, IMO.  They also would have an excellent
     record in any conference they played in, the Big Ten included.  They
     would be competitive with Michigan and Illinois, and would beat everyone
     else the Big Ten.

     Of course, there is no way to prove it, but T's loud (loud-mouth)
     assertion that the teams are fluff is unjustified.  The schedules ARE
     fluff, but the teams are solid teams.  While I don't think Virginia has
     come close to proving they are the best team in the land (they need to
     have a little more competition to prove that), I think both the Cavs and
     Tech are top-10 material as far as the talent and unity on their teams go.
     It's more than just PR; they really are very good teams, and the people
     who vote in the polls are much more knowledgeable than anyone in this
     conference.

Sagarin's system is neutral. It has some flaws and it has some good
points. If other systems are published regularly and if someone would
post these systems, I'd definitely consider them. One feature I like of
Sagarin's is that as a team you've played wins more their power rating
goes up and so does yours. 

As to games outside one's conference, the ACC plays more of these than
larger conferences like the Big10. The rankings of these outside teams
comprises a larger percentage of the power rating for the ACC than for
the Big10. If the outside competition for the ACC is weak, it will, in
effect, lower the overall power rating for the ACC teams.

I'm generally agree with Rick's assessment of weak teams vs weak schedules.

TTom

                                        
    > It's more than just PR; they really are very good teams, and the people
    > who vote in the polls are much more knowledgeable than anyone in this
    > conference.
    
    You're kidding, right?  The history of the polls, Heisman Trophy votes,
    All-America votes, etc. says otherwise.  PR plays a huge role with the
    writers, and the coaches have their own personal agendas.
    
    My major questions with Virginia and Georgia Tech are: 1) could Virginia's
    defense stop a Miami and 2) could Tech's offense score against one?  I
    have serious doubts on both counts.
    
    Kansas' (the only common opponent of Virginia and Miami) coach, when
    asked, answered that "Miami is a *much* better football team than
    Virginia".  Granted, Kansas is so outclassed in either case that it's
    the old question of who left deeper tire tracks, but it is one
    opinion.
    
    If Miami lays it on Notre Dame this weekend look for them to vault over
    Virginia back into the number one spot.  Personally, I have no major
    problem with Virginia or Georgia Tech finishing undefeated and
    participating in a national championship game like West Virginia did
    (although it wouldn't be my first preference), but I'd feel a whole lot
    better if they were coming in from underneath after all the other
    contenders have eliminated themselves, instead of calling the shots
    from #1 and being limited to a choice of independent opponents only in
    the Citrus Bowl (eliminating Nebraska, Tennessee, and Auburn from
    consideration in a championship game).
    
    glenn
     

>    > It's more than just PR; they really are very good teams, and the people
>    > who vote in the polls are much more knowledgeable than anyone in this
>    > conference.
    
>    You're kidding, right?  The history of the polls, Heisman Trophy votes,
>    All-America votes, etc. says otherwise.  PR plays a huge role with the
>    writers, and the coaches have their own personal agendas.
    
     I believe that PR plays a role in boith the AP and UPI polls.  I personally
     have a little more confidence in the coaches poll (UPI), but I do realize
     that some of the coaches in the poll have personal agendas.  Nevertheless,
     I think that few coaches would have much reason to rank Virginia #1 if they
     didn't feel they are a quality team.  While I don't feel that the nation's
     top-ranked team at any time is necessarily the nation's best, I do believe
     that a team ranked #1 by this time in the season is probably better then
     the teams ranked in the #16-#25 range, for example.  The fact that both
     the AP and UPI polls rank them #1 does have something to do with their
     talent level.  People look at BYU in '84, but they tried to have a tough
     schedule (opened with Pitt, for example, who usually was a top 10 team),
     but they were ranked in the #6-#10 range for most of that year, because
     they didn't appear to have as much talent.  Virginia, I believe, has been
     recognized as a talented team.

>    My major questions with Virginia and Georgia Tech are: 1) could Virginia's
>    defense stop a Miami and 2) could Tech's offense score against one?  I
>    have serious doubts on both counts.
    
     Virginia's defense is better than in year's past, but I think they would
     have trouble shutting down a great offense.  However, Virginia might be
     able to outscore Miami, or control the ball game enough on offense to
     keep Miami's offense off the field much of the game.

     Tech's offense would score some from anyone.  As I mentioned, they have
     a huge line on both sides of the ball, and the Tech QB, sophomore
     Sean Jones, is a very good QB.  He's very mobile, has a good arm and good
     touch, very quick and good when running himself, and makes a lot of big
     plays.  They don't have running back's quite as good in the past, however.
     I think Tech would get at least a couple of TD's against just about any
     defense in the country, which may not be great, but enough to win against
     almost anyone.  I have not seen a team this year that could blow out Tech.

    1.  I have read that some (if not many) coaches in the UPI poll
    delegate their vote to the school's Sports Information Director; and
    during the season, a coach is so focused on his own team and its
    opponents he really may not have much of an idea of what other teams
    are doing.
    
    When Dick MacPherson was at UMass, he embarrassed himself at a banquet
    one year for complimenting a coach at a small school on its fine record
    during the season when it actually went 0-8.  The next season, he had
    his graduate assistant coaches prepare a no-money football pool of the
    schools in New England so he would at least have an idea of what was
    going on in New England college football.  That's how focused these
    guys are.  (note I said no money, it was done for standings, bragging
    rights and to keep Mac informed on what was going on)
    
    2.  The Big Ten and SWC teams play 8 league games and 3 non-league
    opponents.  Some PAC-10 schools play 8 league games, some play 7.  No
    other league plays more than 7 league games.
    
    3.  A team's rating in any sort of mathematical rating system really
    depends on two things - the strength of its non-league opponents, and
    the strength of all the schedules of its beaten opponents.  The games
    played within a league all cancel themselves out.  The ACC loses out
    under a mathematical system because they tend to play weak non-league
    schedules.  What that means is if Virginia sweeps through the ACC,
    their opponents outside the league won't do all that well, and with the
    possible exceptions of Tech and Clemson, no one else within the league
    will have beaten a really good non-league opponent.  Under a mathematical
    system, an independent does have a better chance of winning a national
    title since it has a better chance of playing a stronger schedule, than a
    team in a conference that is stuck playing a couple of teams at the
    bottom.
    
    4.  The polls actually track the number 1 team pretty accurately.  From
    1984-1988 (I lost interest last year), I applied a variation of the
    Mass High School rating system to college football.  Using that system
    in 1984 put Florida as the number 1 team in the country even with a
    9-1-1 record based on a brutal schedule.  That was the only significant
    variation.  Where a mathematical rating system points out the inequity
    is in bowl selection, where teams are selected for their marquee value
    and their ability to draw fans than their actual quality as a football
    team, in many cases.
    
    John

    RE:.24 Miami vs Notre Dame
    
    Question: If Notre Dame beats Miami would you give the nod to them
              for first ?
    
    The reason I asked the question is that I have read at least one
    sports column which made the point that you made, but the flip
    side was not made, that is Notre Dame beating Miami.
    
    I thought that I would asked the question BEFORE the game because
    some noters in here hedge their bets. Now knowing you are an
    "Honorable Fan", that would be beneath you.
    
    As for me, I have mixed emotions on this one. I have rooted for
    Notre Dame since I was in elementary school. Being from Miami, I
    rooted for them before they became a national power.
    
    For once I can sit back and relax.
    
    Edwin

    
    Neither Notre Dame nor Miami deserve to be rated number one
    dues to their previous losses.  
    
    Perhaps BYU and Stanford should play for #1.  
    Makes about as much sense.
    
    Bob V.
    

    > RE:.24 Miami vs Notre Dame
    > 
    > Question: If Notre Dame beats Miami would you give the nod to them
    >           for first ?
    
    See .5 for *my* personal opinion.  The prediction in .24 is what I
    think the *AP/UPI* will do.  I do not believe that either poll will 
    elevate ND this early, but because Miami is already #2, they might jump 
    to the top.  Don't ask me why, but if ND does win, I expect that they 
    will only be able to jump back to #1 with another win over Tennessee.  
    Wins over Michigan, Miami, and Tennessee would be too much to look past, 
    in my opinion, especially if you've already established a precedent by 
    placing a puffed-up Michigan with one loss at #1 so early in the season.  
    
    Don't worry, I won't hedge.  Unless, as I suggested in .5, Auburn really 
    has come together under their young QB and goes out and hammers Florida 
    State.  I don't expect that to happen, though.
    
    glenn
     

FWIW, the line has moved to Miami, -3 1/2.

TTom

    That's yet another punk thing about these silly-aced polls: In 
    close cases it comes down to who lost most recently, which means
    that the sequence of schedule plays a role in deciding who's 
    best!
    
    I think it's fair to say that the chilling Virgina saga has brought
    home the dangerously ugly flaws in the polling process and will 
    finally move the better programs to push a playoff system through
    to see that nothing as horribly wrong and unfair as what has happened
    to the sport this week.
    
    MrT

    � I think it's fair to say that the chilling Virgina saga has brought
    � home the dangerously ugly flaws in the polling process and will 
    � finally move the better programs to push a playoff system through to
    � see that nothing as horribly wrong and unfair as what has happened to
    � the sport this week.
    
    "*If* the brain-dead Big Ten referees had bothered to open their
    out-to-lunch Big Ten eyes, then numbskull Michigan and the mighty Big
    Ten would still be Number 1."
    
    Guess this'll be the last time I use this quote since Michigan decided
    they really enjoy one-point losses at home to inferior conference
    opponents.
    
    And Indiana looked just *awesome* against the Golden Gophers.
        
    Bob Hunt

    According to the USA Today/CNN Poll:
    1. Virginia     7-0
    2. Nebraska     7-0
    3. Notre Dame   5-1
    4. Auburn     5-0-1
    5. Houston      6-0
    
    If the top three go undefeated for the remainder of the regular season
    it sets up potentially a # 2 vs # 3 for the National Title. IMHO N.D.
    would be better served by playing Nebraska than Virginia for the
    Mythical National Title. Virginia would play Miami in the Citrus.
    
    Edwin

As soon as you say "better serverd" you know it won't turn out that way.
If all goes accordingly, ND would love to play Virginia and let Miami
worry about the mighty Huskers.

TTom

    I don't know, but the 8-0 Cowboys from Laramie seem to have the best
    record around....:-)

    REGARDING .35
    
    And the mighty Cowboys defeated Divison II weakling Weber State this
    Saturday.   
    
    The Washington Huskies are #6 in the UPI poll.  The Huskies should be
    higher after crushing Stanford 52-16.  Stanford is a quality team,
    having beaten Notre Dame and outplaying Colorado and losing in the
    final minutes of the game.
    
    The rankings should read:
    
    Nebraska-   1
    Notre Dame- 2
    Washington- 3 
    U of VA-    4
    BYU-        5
    
    

    
    re. 36
    
    You are kidding about those rankings, right?
    
    BYU does not belong in the top 10, much less the top 5.
    
    Fortunately, the UPI poll is as follows:
    
    1) UVA
    2) Nebraska
    3) Auburn
    4) ND
    5) Illinois
    

    
>    Fortunately, the UPI poll is as follows:
>    
>    1) UVA
>    2) Nebraska
>    3) Auburn
>    4) ND
>    5) Illinois
    
    Now we can only hope that the AP is as accurate and doesn't jump poor,
    untalented ND over Auburn.  
    
    Joe    

    Geez, Joe, if Miami had been in ND's position, and beaten #2, you'd
    be yelling for them to be #1.   ND takes 2 out of the last 3 from
    the Canes.
    
    JD

    Good thing that the ND-Miami series is history, for Miami that is, eh
    JD?  
    
    I expect to hear much more whinin' before the day is through.....  :-)
    
    Hawk

    
    2 of the last 3 being in South Bend has nothing to do with ND winning 2
    of the last 3 does it???
    
    When was the last time ND won in Miami?  Wasn't Miami something like
    7-3 against ND in the 80's?
    
    I am sure that ND will be #3 in the AP poll since the sportswriters
    tend to kiss ND butt...
    

    IF Virginia and Nebraska go undefeated into bowls. Who do you think
    will be number one??? History goes with Virginia BUT, for this to
    happen the Huskers would beat Colorado and Oklahoma. This is tougher
    than Virginia's schedule and NU is a perinial powerhouse. Virginia is
    not.
    
    Nebraska Marty

>    Geez, Joe, if Miami had been in ND's position, and beaten #2, you'd
>   be yelling for them to be #1. 

    Looks like you're putting words in my mouth, JD.
    
>  ND takes 2 out of the last 3 from the Canes.
    
    Not to mention the TD they took away from Miami 2 years ago.
    
    Joe

      The Nation [daily sports newspaper] believes that the future
      of college football includes a playoff system, probably involving
      16 teams tied to local games. This is the most current update
      of a hypothetical playoff.

      

      Virginia #1                         Nebraska #2
      -----------|                       |-----------
         [Peach] |----               ----|[Hancock]
      Florida #16|   |               |   |Wyoming #14
      -----------    |               |    -----------
                     :               |
      [Sugar]        |               |       [Holiday]
                     |-->[Rose] vs   |
      Illinois #8    |   [Cotton]<---|    Washington #5
      ----------|    |               |   |-------------    
                |    |               |   |
      [Hall-fo-Fame] |               |   |[California]
                |    |               |   |
      Houston #9|    |               |   |Tennessee #12
      ----------|    |               |
                     |               |
                     |               |
      BYU #6    |    |               |   Colorado #7
      ------    |    |               |   -----------
                |    |               |   |
      [All-American] |               |   | [Liberty] 
                |    |               |   |
      Iowa #11  |    |               |   Miami #10
      --------  |    |               |   ---------
                     |               |
      [Gator]        |-->[Rose] vs   |   [Orange]
                     |               |
                     |   [Cotton]<---|
      Auburn #4      |               |   Notre Dame #2
      ---------   |  |               |   -------------
                  |  |               |   |
      [Freedom]   |  |               |   |  [Citrus]
                  |  |               |   |
      Clemson #13 |  |               |   Texas #15
      ----------- |  |               |   ---------
      ---------------          |     |-----------------
                               |
                               |
                           [Fiesta]    

    Enjoy,
    
    Edwin












    

    Marty,
    
    Unfair though it may be, Virginia is probably going to hold onto the
    top spot unless they lose even if the Huskers go unbeaten and even if
    the Huskers play a tougher schedule than the Cavs.  Once a team makes
    it to the top, it's impossible for another team to catch them unless
    they lose.
    
    Sorry, but that's just the way it is.
    
    John

    
    Virginia will lose to the Ramblin' Wreck.
    
    
    
    
    Steve

    
    > Unfair though it may be, Virginia is probably going to hold onto the
    > top spot unless they lose even if the Huskers go unbeaten and even if
    > the Huskers play a tougher schedule than the Cavs.  Once a team makes
    > it to the top, it's impossible for another team to catch them unless
    > they lose.
    
    This may not be the case, John.  I believe that *some* pollsters are
    voting properly: ranking teams based on their performance to date
    against their schedule to date.  If this is the case, and Nebraska 
    beats Colorado and Oklahoma, I think quite a few voters will come 
    around.  Right now, as Mike Franscesca of CBS pointed out Saturday,
    Nebraska fans have no complaint as their schedule to date has been just
    as weak as Virginia's.  (He also flatly stated that Virginia does not
    have the players to compete with a Notre Dame or Miami.)
    
    Right now, and as Miami's loss to ND further clarifies, the possibility
    exists that #1 will *not* play #2 in the bowls if Virginia stays at #1.
    This would be a shame and is another good reason that competition be
    considered in the final rankings.  Both Nebraska and Auburn have better
    chances to remain unbeaten than Notre Dame, and neither could play
    Virginia if Virginia holds onto the #1 spot.
    
    glenn
      
    

    re .48
    
    Coem again Glenn ? UVa has an escape clause in its Citrus Bowl
    contract, and the Orange Bowl will take the Big Eight winner vs.
    whomever. If NU and UVa stay undefeated, then the Orange Bowl matchup
    is set in stone (I hope).
    
    Doc

    If Virginia stays unbeated, Nebraska cannot get to #1 even if they
    finish their season undefeated and win the Orange Bowl, because they
    won't get to face Notre Dame.  ND has a relatively easy schedule 
    remaining and should finish 10-1.  That would rank them no worse than
    third.  Give Nebraska #2, and if Virginia stays undefeated.  That would
    make them #1 and set Notre Dame up to play them in the Citris Bowl.
    The winner of that game would be #1 and Nebraska will be #2.  It's that
    simple.
    
    NAZZ

If Virginia is number 1, the Citrus can force them to stay if they meet
the money that any other bowl would offer. The only one that looks like
it could be close would be the Orange Bowl. The SEC has to go to the
Sugar. Only if Nebraska loses and Auburn wins the rest of their games
would the Sugar Bowl have any part of settling which teams people will
vote for.

TTom

    Unbeated = a new word, made from a combination of unbeaten and
    undefeated.
    
    NAZZ

    UVA does have that escape clause in their contract, but they only get
    out of the Citrus Bowl if they are ranked 2, 3, or 4 by AP.  And if
    Nebraska goes undefeated, they would be tied into the Orange.  What may
    happen though is if UVA finishes undefeated but has some lackluster
    wins and NU beats CU and OU, NU could jump over UVA and therefore UVA
    could get out of their Citrus Bowl contract and meet NU in the Orange
    Bowl.  #1 vs. #2 for the national title, and the hell with ND.
    
    Joe

    Nazz,
    
    How can you say ND has a relatively easy schedule left?
    
    They play Tennessee at Tenn, they home vs. Penn State, then away
    at USC in the last 3 games of the season.  Name another top 10 team
    with a harder 3 games at the end of the season...
    
    JD

                            
    Agreed.  ND has plenty of opportunity left to lose another game.
    
    But if they don't, and they get to play Virginia in the Citrus only 
    because Auburn and/or Nebraska are locked in, chalk another one up in 
    the travesty column.  A lot of ifs, but it could happen.
    
    However, right now, given their performance in the Miami game, I think
    Notre Dame is the best team in the country.  Nebraska has got to show
    me, and Auburn has to play a full 60-minute football game.  Virginia
    has to actually play a football game.
    
    glenn
    

    � Virginia has to actually play a football game.
    
    They have.  Seven of 'em.  Won 'em all, too.  Can't ask much more of a
    team than to win the games it plays.
    
    Bob Hunt

I think you take all the teams that are undefeated playing weak schedules
and have them play all the teams with tough schedules with 1 or 2 defeats..

You'd end up with a schedule like

Virginia vs. ND
Nebraska vs. Miami
Auburn vs. Washington

Then you have a great chance of showing how weak the undefeateds actually are.
You end up with a bunch of teams with 1 or 2 losses and the whole polling system
is exposed as such a scam that you force some sort of playoff system into place.

And then I woke up and realized that this makes too much sense...

Metz

Better brace for it, Bob - like you haven't heard from them yet, right?

Based on what I've seen, ND and Virginia would be a very good ballgame.

TTom

re: .57 If all continues, Washington is stuck in the Rose Bowl playing
Iowa or Illinois, as it looks now.

TTom

re: .388
    
    >I think you take all the teams that are undefeated playing weak schedules
>and have them play all the teams with tough schedules with 1 or 2 defeats..

>You'd end up with a schedule like

>Virginia vs. ND
>Nebraska vs. Miami
>Auburn vs. Washington
    
    I think you will find that Auburn has played FSU and has some other
    tough teams on the schedule.
    
    Nebraska had a weak pre-season schedule but still can prove themselves
    vs Oklahoma and Colorado. Huskers have no control over the rest of the
    weak Big-8 schedule such as Kansas, kansas State etc... Unless they
    move to another conference.
    
    Nebraska Marty

    Penn. State - Lucky to beat BC Saturday, thanks to an incredible
    15 yard "taunting" penalty with 3 minutes left in a 6 point game.
    Not ranked in Top 25.
    
    USC - routed by Arizona 35-26, after leading 17-7 at the half.  Out
    of the Rose Bowl picture already.  Rated a generous #20 by USA today.
    
    Tennessee - lost at home to an uncharacteristically poor Alabama
    team 9-6.  Haven't been able to win a big game all year.  Somehow
    with a loss and two ties still ranked #11.
    
    To sum up - no Top Ten teams left for Notre Dame to face.  Teams that
    looks formidable early in the season or in pre-season are proving to
    be pretenders to national apsirations.  With Notre Dame's depth and
    talent, they should waltz their way to a national championship game
    against Virginia, providing Virginia can stay undefeated.
    
    NAZZ 

>    USC - routed by Arizona 35-26, after leading 17-7 at the half.  Out
>    of the Rose Bowl picture already.  Rated a generous #20 by USA today.
    
    GO WILDCATS!!

    RE:.53
    > #1 vs. #2 for the national title, ...
    
    Could just mean  ND and somebody else.
    
    Edwin

    Personally, I'd like to see ND vs Nebraska in the Orange Bowl for
    number 1. Not because I like ND but because this would be a game
    full of good ole tradition. Huskers and Irish being long time
    college football powers.
    
    Plus, if Nebraska plays the Cav's then after a Nebraska victory people
    would say that it is hollow because of Virginia's schedule.
    
    Nebraska Marty

    .64�    Plus, if Nebraska plays the Cav's then after a Nebraska victory people
    .64�    would say that it is hollow because of Virginia's schedule.
    
    	What would they say after a UVa win? It was nothing, we didn't want
    to win anyway?  
    
    B.A.
    

    I would hope Osborne would be man enough to accept a defeat by UVA if
    that becomes the case. And not be like Switzer and cry after being beat
    by an ACC team(Clemson).
    
    You NU fans may want to think back a few years, when you guy's were
    asking...........CLEMSON, Where the H*ll is Clemson????? Ya'll found
    pretty quick, if I remember correctly.  UVA might do you guy's
    the same way.  I like NU!! I have been to university twice and enjoyed
    my visit, people are friendly and the place is big. I especially liked
    the museum, I spent over half a day in there, the girl I went to see at
    N.U. got mad and left me in there and it was hell trying to find my
    back to her dorm, but I did and all was fine.:-) You guy's have some
    nice women there also. Anyway thats another matter.
    
                                                          M.J.

    Marty, when I was there I got alot of funny stares. I quess it had
    nothing to do with me wearing my University South Carolina shirt. One
    guy came up to me and said that USC was the hardest hitting team he had
    ever seen and we talked for alittle while longer and after he left I
    asked the girl I was with who that was and she said he was the QB. I
    went up there a few months after they played each other. That was a
    good game as I remember.
    
    Sorry people, didn't mean to bore you!!!!!!!!!!!
    
                                                                 M.J.

    RE:.61  Get real pal.. 'Bama has a better football team then their
    record shows. They have had a bunch or injuries to key players, and
    have been hurt by special teams play. Let ND bring their irish ass into
    Knoxville and we'll show them and you why we are still ranked #11. I
    would expect as much from a person who thinks BYU should be in top 10.
    It's obvious you don't know a horse from a mule...
    
    RJ
    
    SEC football is #1

    And on the seventh day.............................. :-) :-)
    
                                                        M.J.

    Re:.61
    
    Remember Stanford???? Vols a much better team. I hope the Irish team
    feels the same as you do. Look for Vols to open it up against Irish,
    they have nothing to lose.

    Virginia reminds me of the West Virginia squad a few years back.  You
    remember same type of team Major Harris at Quarterback a few fleet wide
    receivers and running backs.  Well remember what happened to that West
    Virginia squad, they got there butt kicked by Notre Dame.  I like the
    current pressure in recent years for the #1 team to play a high rated
    team.  Several years ago BYU won the national championship by beating
    a 6-5 Michigan team.  At least in the last few years the #1 or #2 ranked
    team had to play a very high ranked tough opponent.  
    
    Greg
    

    .61�    Tennessee - lost at home to an uncharacteristically poor Alabama
    .61�    team 9-6.  Haven't been able to win a big game all year.  Somehow
    .61�    with a loss and two ties still ranked #11.
    
    
         What do you call the big blowout over Florida (45-3) ??  The two
    ties were with two top ten teams (Colorado,Auburn), with Auburn ranked
    #2 and CU ranked #10.  Notre Dame will not be at home Nov. 10 also so
    there will be no Irish luck that day.  
    
    
    Waiting for ND,
     Dave
    

    � Several years ago BYU won the national championship by beating a 6-5
    � Michigan team.  
    
    BYU won the WAC conference championship that year and were thus locked
    into going to the Holiday Bowl in San Diego.   They had no option that
    would allow them to go to a "bigger" bowl.
    
    The other schools went off to the bigger bowls for the bigger money and
    BYU ended up beating a mediocre Michigan team.
    
    Bob Hunt

   How `bout:

   Nebraska loses to CU and OU
   Wahoos drop to Tech

   Auburn and Notre Dame in the (?) Bowl

   Mike JN

    Let's take a closer look at Notre Dame's schedule.  So far, they are
    5-1, and  ONLY MIAMI OF THE TEAMS THEY HAVE PLAYED THUS FAR HAS A BETTER
    THAN .500 RECORD!!!!!!
    
    	Michigan	3-3
    	Michigan State	2-3-1
    	Purdue (!)	1-5
    	Stanford (LOSS) 2-5
    	Air Force	3-4
    	Miami		4-2
    	-------------------
    	TOTAL RECORD   15-22-1  NOT VERY IMPRESSIVE!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    The teams left on ND's schedule are playing slightly better than those
    they have played thus far, but not by much.  Here are their records:
    
    	Pittsburgh	3-3-1
    	Navy (!!)	3-3  (Lost 24-7 to Air Force!!!)
    	Tennessee	4-1-2
    	Penn State	4-2
    	Southern Cal	5-2
    	___________________
    	TOTAL RECORD   19-11-3
    
    NAZZ

    Auburn would be a real great bowl catch.  Maybe Pat Dye could go for
    another tie.  A few years back he kicks a field goal vs Syracuse in the
    Sugar Bowl and ties, give me a break folks.  
     
      

    Nazz,
    
    What were the records of the teams  when they played Notre Dame???
    
    ANd, who has a tougher schedule, Nazz - back up the bashing - Auburn?
    HawHawHaw.   Florida State?  They've played 2 tough teams and lost
    both times - overrated tothe max.  Florida?/  A wimp schedule. 
    And ND doesn't play any division 1-AA teams, like certain other
    schools.
    
    The 3-3 Michigan team is probably better than a hail of alot of
    4-1 and 5-2 teams that play creampuff schedules.
    
    JD

    Brent Musburger of ABC during the Huskies 52-16 romp over Stanford:
    
    "You know, what I've come to realize is the Eastern bias toward the
    Pac-10.   I don't think the Pac-10 get the credit it deserves.  If
    Washington played Virginia and USC played Georgia Tech, I think
    you'd have to favor Washington and SC."
    
    Brent is correct.  If Brent were privy to this notes file, he'd
    take even a stronger position on this issue.
    
    
    
    
    

    
    Wouldn't a Cal-Minnesota Rose Bowl be great?  It could happen,
    especially if Cal can beat Washington this week.
    
    I guess parity is the nemesis

    
    > "You know, what I've come to realize is the Eastern bias toward the
    > Pac-10.   I don't think the Pac-10 get the credit it deserves.  If
    > Washington played Virginia and USC played Georgia Tech, I think
    > you'd have to favor Washington and SC."
    
    Same would apply to the SEC, in at least as big a way.
    
    glenn (still trying to figure out how Oregon STATE beat Arizona who
           then beat USC in a two-week stretch)
    

>    glenn (still trying to figure out how Oregon STATE beat Arizona who
>           then beat USC in a two-week stretch)
    
    The Wildcats took them too lightly.  Simple as that.  
    
    Mike

    re: .65
    
>    	What would they say after a UVa win? It was nothing, we didn't want
>    to win anyway?  
    
    Well, if the Huskers did loose in the Orange Bowl to Virginia, then the
    only thing we could say is what every good Husker says after Nebraska
    looses...
    
    
    
    	...DAGGUMMIT, another national championship down the drain !!!!!
    
    Nebraska Marty

    What does Brent know???????????????????? Not much!!! IMO!!!!
    
    We need to ask Bo!!! :-)
    
                                                 M.J.

    Mike, Such talk. Brent is a big Cock fan isn't he....
    
    What about Auburn to win it all... They have to go to Florida and
    Alabama and they have Georgia at home. They could be undefeated, but
    who would they play in the sugar bowl ?? Why should UVa want to go and
    play in another bowl and take a chance of being beaten. They can go
    play a 7-4 Oklahoma or Penn state, win and be national champions. 
    
    RJ (Nebraska may have the best hand... lot of football left)

    Yea!!! Brent likes the Cocks, but that don't mean I have to agree with
    the guy. 
    
    One can look at one's schedule and say what they may, but like I said
    before.......ANY team can be beat by ANY team at ANY time. Look at how
    many times this has happened this year. BYU/MAIMI, ND/STANFORD,
    UT/ALABAMA, S.Carolina/CITADEL........clearly lesser football teams
    have been better on that particular day and beat the "better" team. And
    for someone to say that Nebraska and S.Cal are better than UVA and
    G.A.Tech is clearly ones opinion and CAN'T be proven till they play the
    other.
    
    True UVA isn't playing a tough schedule, but h*ll Nebraska hasn't
    played not one ranked team as of yet and they are ranked high 'cause of
    their reputation and until they beat some known teams, i.e UC, Oklahoma
    I think they are overranked. As I feel UVA is, also. But, I'm not
    taking anything away from them, they are undefeated and deserve the
    credit that is given to them and until they are beaten the polls will
    remain the way they are..............F*cked Up!!!!!!!
    
    I also heard that Furman and Wofford University's are going to schedule
    S.Carolina for their homecoming's next year!!! :-) :-) :-)
    
                                                     M.J.

    Say what you want about Nebraska's schedule, and it has been weak, they
    will get the chance to prove themselves Nov. 3 vs Colorado and Nov. 23
    at Oklahoma. I dont think the Huskers should be as high as number 2
    right now. But if they win those 2 games I believe they SHOULD then be
    # 1.
    
    Nebraska Marty

    re -1
    Considering the fact that UVA is ranked #1 with their schedule, Nebraska
    DOES deserve to be ranked #2.
    
    Joe  

    USA TOday listed possible Bowl matchups (IF all the participants
    win the games they must...)
    
    Virgina vs. Auburn in SUgar
    Notre Dame vs. Nebraska in the Orange
    Wash vs. Illinois in Rose
    Tenn. vs. Iowa in Fiesta
    Texas vs. Miami in Cotton
    Florida State vs. COlorado in the Citrus
    CLemson vs. Penn State in Hall of Fame
    Georgia Tech vs. Michigan in the Gator
    
    
    JD

   Although it's great for the `Hoo fans. UV doesn't deserve to be ranked
   #1

   Being unbeaten has little to do with it.

   Wyoming is  8 - 0

   Why not make them #1?

   It won't happen, because A) Wyoming doesn't play a tough schedule
   (although they'll get BYU) and B) They aren't on the East Coast.

   Since UV has a weak schedule, also... I can only attribute the #1
   ranking to reason B).... They are on the East Coast.

   So again we have pinhaided, weevilbrained, comsymp, neoliberal,
   Eastern, bleedin heart-types determining the contenduhs for the
   Mythical.

   This is a sad day
   Mike JN

    
   > So again we have pinhaided, weevilbrained, comsymp, neoliberal,
   > Eastern, bleedin heart-types determining the contenduhs for the
   > Mythical.
    
    Hahaha!  Maybe those 21-12 beatings of your Weber States and your 52-51
    defensive struggles against San Diego St. has something to do with it.
    At least I'll give credit to Virginia for thrashing their competition.
    
    glenn
    

�    Hahaha!  Maybe those 21-12 beatings of your Weber States and your 52-51
�    defensive struggles against San Diego St. has something to do with it.
�    At least I'll give credit to Virginia for thrashing their competition.

Snot the point, Walkman.

   Point tis... they're 8 - 0
   Best record in the nation.
   Since quality of opponent seems to have little or no bearing on the
   ranking.... Wyoming has a legitimate claim.
   Point tis... they're not even looked at as a top tenner.
   Point tis... UV's  East Coast affiliation seems to me to be a key 
   factor in their ranking.

   KnowhatImean, Jellybean?
   Mike JN

  � Point tis... UV's  East Coast affiliation seems to me to be a key 
    
    So now it's the physical location of the school that's the crime.
    
    Sheesh, you guys are amazing.   I guess if that's true, we can all be
    thankful that T doesn't do the rankings because I'm sure that some
    school in Norfolk playing in the SEC would be ranked No. 1.
    
    Bob Hunt

    
    That may be AP logic, Mike, but it's not mine.  I'm trying to be as
    objective as is possible without a playoff.  Agreed, it's far from
    perfect.
    
    Personally, I think 6-0 Houston at #6 is the most overrated team in 
    the country right now.  Undefeated means a lot to the pollsters.  Once
    a lesser-regarded undefeated team that doesn't play the tough
    competition loses, they drop a mile.  Watch and see.
    
    glenn

    
    Anyone have the latest UPI ratings?
    
    Bob V.
    

    regarding note .89
    
    Right on.   Even mush mouthed, East-Coast bigoted Brent, sees the
    errors of his ways.  And you, our east-coast brethern don't.
    Why?
    
    In all the babble, no mention is made of Washington, Houston, Wyoming.
    Wyoming's schedule cannot be much weaker than U of VAs.  Why not
    consider Wyoming as #1?  Nebraska is undefeated?  Dito with Nebraska.
    Washington's only loss is to Colorado, yet they are not considered
    in this file with the likes of Notre Dame, Miami, Tennessee, et. al.
    Football does exit west of the Mississippi.
    
    
    

�    So now it's the physical location of the school that's the crime.
    
�    thankful that T doesn't do the rankings because I'm sure that some

   Bubba Hunt,

   	Yo! You mean T DOESN'T do the rankings?!?!?

   	Hmmmmph!

   PS - The location of the school isn't a crime... but IS a reason, I
   think, for the ranking. I felt the Wyoming analogy is fairly apt. We
   have a perennial `less than a powerhouse' school in Wyoming that
   suddenly spouts an 8-0 record against admittedly weak opponents. We
   have a perennial `less than a powerhouse' East Coast school that
   suddenly spouts an unbeaten record against admittedly weak opponents.  
   The East Coast school is ranked #1 in the country, the Wyoming school
   barely makes the top twenty five. 
   So... yes... I think location is a factor.
   Also... I still like the Hoos. I'm not real fanatic about ANY college
   football teams (kinda like ND,  CU... a few others [love the Seminole
   fight song]) so if Virginia wins the mythical, I'll probably be real
   happy, as long as it's a good game. (But I'll probably still come in
   here and think up a ration of excrement to give you about how they
   didn't deserve it. ;'D)

   Mike JN

    
    Excuse me, but aren't the writers that vote for the #1 team from 
    all over the country? Any one have a breakdown?
    
    
    
    Steve

    Steve,
    
    One of the kicks I get listening to Mr. KNow-It-ALL is following
    the press reports of College Football out here onthe West Coast.
    Last weeks' Miami-ND game was buried deep in the sports section.
    And the hype of Notre Dame is virtually non-existant (amazingly,
    Washington gets all the hype - they must have ND alums in their
    PR department).  And When I was in Oregon, the papers didnt' hype
    the Rocket or the Irish.  In fact, here in Seattle, they dropped
    the Rocket from their "Heismann hopeful" list after the first week.
    
    Ah yes, that coast-to-coast hype that someone insists permeates
    everyone, everywhere.
    
    As for a breakdown of voters:  The AP is writers, and the UPI is
    a coaches poll. 
    
    JD

    
    You mean Dandetta(tm)! 8^) I would put more faith in the UPI
    poll,  I can't imagine idiots like Bob Ryan or Dan Shaughnessy
    voting for the #1 college team in the nation.
    
    
    
    Steve

 Except Steve, not all the coaches even vote. They hand their slips to
 the team manager or one of the assistant coaches. Some coaches do
 vote but what's to keep them from being anymore bias that the writers?
 Writers obviously vote stronger for who they see but hopefully the
 fact they're spread out across the country adds some balance to the
 scales. As for coaches do you really think Jimmy Johnson voted ND
 #1 in 88?

 mike

    
    Gee Mike, can we trust anyone nowaday's? The towel boy is 
    voting for the coach! I love it! 8^)
    
    
    
    
    Steve

You can trust me Steve... ;^)

also Lou Duffy!!!

mike

    
    Did you hear the one this morning? A classic Lou Duffy!
    
    "Steal from ya?" "I can't even find my ass wit both hands!"
    
    Lou Duffy's looking for change...spare change. Lou Duffy for
    govenor! I was rollin'!
    
    
    Steve

    
    IF, and that's a big if, Nebraska beats Colorado next week
    and Virginia continues to win, it will be a crime if they are
    hooked up in a Bowl game!
    
    Notre Dame should play the only other team Stanford could beat!
    
    Bob V.
    

    I'm goin on-line with this right now !!!
    
    Mighty Huskers will beat Colorado this week at Nebraska. After this game
    Huskers * SHOULD * be ranked number 1.
    
    Nebraska Marty

    
    I guess you are assuming that UVA will lose to GT?
    

    Hey Auburn John,
    
    No I'm not Assumeing anything. I used the word * SHOULD * !!! That
    dosent mean they will.
    
    This weeks poll:
    
    	AP      UPI
     
    Virginia   Virginia
    Nebraska   ND
    ND         Nebraska
    Auburn     Aubrun
    
    Is that correct? Auburn 4th in BOTH polls? I'm not tryin to dig at ya
    John, I just cant remember for sure.
    
    Nebraska Marty

    ND jumped over AUburn in the polls even though both teams won their
    games.  They've accomplished this "miracle" many times over the course
    of my college football fandom.  Has ND ever been jumped over in similar
    fashion.  I don't remember it ever happening.
    
    Dan

    
    > Has ND ever been jumped over in similar fashion.  I don't remember it 
    > ever happening.
      
    I'm sure it's happened, but probably never when ND was in the Top 5,
    which is the situation here.  I'm not sure if the pollsters bothered to
    watch the ND-Pitt game, but ND as usual played down to the level of the
    opponent.  Maybe your average voter just caught the score and
    highlights of Ismail ripping off two long runs, but otherwise they
    didn't play very well, in my opinion.  Pitt killed themselves with
    penalties as Van Pelt was ripping apart the Irish secondary, a problem 
    I thought ND had partially solved in the Miami game.
    
    Notre Dame is good, damn good, and probably better than Auburn, but this
    particular team does not seem to have the killer instinct the past two
    have had.  I can see them getting up and beating Tennessee and USC, but
    maybe being upset by Penn State at home if they're not careful. 
    
    glenn
    

    
    > I'm sure it's happened, but probably never when ND was in the Top 5,
    > which is the situation here.
    
    Oops!  If Nebraska really is #2 in the AP as was implied in an earlier
    note, then Nebraska jumped ND even as both won.  And ND beat the
    tougher opponent.
    
    Can anyone confirm?
    
    glenn
    

    I didn't even know that ND played this weekend, let alone won!  I even
    scoured the college football section in the sunday paper and nothing! 
    The Notre Dame hypesters must've taken a day off...... :-)
    
    Hawk

    I placed note .107 in as I remembered hearing it on KOA radio
    this morning on the way to work. Therefore what I wrote in that note
    might not be accurate.
    
    Also, dosent one of the polls normally come out later today? If so
    then how did KOA report on it?
    
    ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
    
    Nebraska Marty

I can't figure why anybody would jump ND after this weeks victory. I'm a ND
f(d)an and I admit they looked pretty lousy. They've been playing up and down
all season to the level of their competition. 

BTW- the paper was full of PItt's praise for the rocket after his 4th quarter
      this week. It wasn't coming from a hype machine, it was coming as 
direct quotes from the opposition. 

Metz - who wishes that the Washington Huskies weren't tied into the Rose Bowl 
       and could play whomever they wanted to on new Years day. The week big 10
       competition isn't going to do anything for them in the Polls.

 

    Hawk, ND at Pitt was a night game and if you got an early edition of
    whatever paper you read, you wouldn't have seen anything.  ND beat Pitt
    31-22.
    
    John

    � The week big 10 competition isn't going to do anything for them in
    � the Polls.
    
    I think you meant "weak Pacific 10" competition, didn't you ???
    
    Regardless, how do you see Washington getting the shaft in the polls
    when their conference brethern are weak but Virginia benefits when
    their conference foes are just as weak, if not weaker ???
    
    I know, I know, it's an East Coast bias, right ???
    
    You guys kill me with your "reasons" why teams are where they are in
    the polls.   On the field in the dirt is where it's at, boys.
    
    Bob Hunt

re .110
    
    >Oops!  If Nebraska really is #2 in the AP as was implied in an earlier
    >note, then Nebraska jumped ND even as both won.  And ND beat the
    >tougher opponent.
    
      What makes you think ND beat the tougher oppenent?
    
      Pitt was blown away by Oklahoma, a team Iowa St beat the week before.
      Iowa State has also played Iowa and Colorado tough.  Both had 3-3-1 
      records going into their respective games.  Who has Pitt beaten?
      Pitt has a big name...I'd think YOU wouldn't fall into that crap trap.
    
      On top of that Nebraska blew Iowa State away 45-13, N.D. could well
      have lost!
    
      Bob V.
    

    
    > I think you meant "weak Pacific 10" competition, didn't you ???
    
    I think the implication was their Rose Bowl opponent won't help them.
    
    > Regardless, how do you see Washington getting the shaft in the polls
    > when their conference brethern are weak but Virginia benefits when
    > their conference foes are just as weak, if not weaker ???
    
    Because Washington has a loss and Virginia is undefeated, which as
    explained previously is magic to the pollsters.  If Washington was
    undefeated with their schedule, they'd undoubtedly be #1.
    
    > You guys kill me with your "reasons" why teams are where they are in
    > the polls.   On the field in the dirt is where it's at, boys.
    
    C'mon, Bob, don't misrepresent us all.  There has been some very
    rational discussion around this issue.  Washington's schedule and
    performance to date arguably have shown them to be as good "on the 
    field and in the dirt" as Virginia or any other team.  If you don't 
    agree based on record completely regardless of schedule, then you at 
    least need to respond to the issue of the Nebraskas, Houstons, and 
    Wyomings.  Virginia has not beaten any of these undefeated teams on
    grass, turf, or any other surface.  Guess what?  Without a playoff,
    they're not going to, leaving the whole thing up for argument. 
    Virginia is not exempt from that argument, and anyone who disagrees
    with the polls is not the conspiratorial dolt you imply.
    
    glenn
      

    I thought Pitt scored a late TD, making the score closer than it
    really was (didn't Pitt score 2 td's in the 4th?)  I didn't watch
    the game.
    
    Re -1:  The Big Eight is just chock full of tough opponents.  yep.
    
    RE:  Washington and Bob Hunt.
    
    The Husky hype here is getting unbearable.  Feel like I'm in South
    Bend.  After all, I thought only Notre Dame had hype.  Anyway,
    Washington has played one tough opponent in my book, Colorado, and
    they got beat.  Colorado shot themselve early by getting the early
    tie, and as others forget, barely beating Stanford the next week.
    Colorado shot themselves early.  
    
    That California was still in the running for the Roses is testament
    to how weak the Pac10 is.  Probably the weakest in the country,
    other than the SWC.  
    
    Talking about the SWC, is there a more overrated team in the nation
    than Houston?  Second straight year of no competition and inflated
    stats.
    
    JD

    �Who has Pitt beaten?
    
    Ohio University.  EwwwAhhh.
    

    
    > Talking about the SWC, is there a more overrated team in the nation
    > than Houston?  Second straight year of no competition and inflated
    > stats.
    
    Like I said in .93, JD, there is not a more overrated team.  Houston has 
    played in some tight games, and when they get up late, they're not happy 
    with just the two-touchdown victory.  They just keep pouring it on with 
    that run-and-shoot.  Very impressive statistically and all that, but 
    you'd think the pollsters would see through it.
    
    An interesting game for Houston (besides Texas) is Arizona St. on Dec 1.
    If the SWC is as generally weak as I think it is, the lowly Sun Devils 
    (2-5) will probably still give Houston all they can handle.  One of the
    games Arizona St. *did* win was a thrashing of the very SWC-respectable
    Baylor Bears.
    
    glenn

    
    re. 113
    
    I think the reason ND jumped over Auburn is obvious.  Auburn
    need a blocked conversion attempt to beat a mediocre Mississippi
    St. team 17-16.
    
    I am not a Notre Dame fan.
    
    Peace/ed

    USA?TODAY POLL:
    
    1.  Virginia
    2.  Nebraska
    3.  Notre Dame
    4.  Houstonj
    5.  Auburn
        Washington (Tie for 5th)
    
    JD

    � If Washington was undefeated with their schedule, they'd undoubtedly
    � be #1.
    
    But they aren't and so they ain't.   If and buts, beer and nuts,
    n'est-ce pas ???
    
    � C'mon, Bob, don't misrepresent us all.  There has been some very
    � rational discussion around this issue.  
    
    *Rational* discussion ???  In *here* ???   On this issue ???   Maybe
    from a handful of people, yourself included, but that's about it.    I
    started out by saying that Virginia had a soft schedule way back in
    August, fer cripesakes, before the season even started.   All I've
    gotten is truckloads of grief for what has transpired.   If it's not
    the schedule, it's the East Coast mentality, if not the East Coast,
    it's the Big Ten refs, if not the refs, it's the other teams losing, if
    not the losses, it's the lack of a playoff system, if not the system,
    then it's the worst thing since BYU and on and on and on ...
    
    Very few people in here have even *dared* to believe that the Cavaliers
    actually might have a kickass team.  Very few.
    
    � Washington's schedule and performance to date arguably have shown
    � them to be as good "on the  field and in the dirt" as Virginia or any
    � other team.  
    
    Apples and oranges.  They don't mix.
    
    � If you don't  agree based on record completely regardless of
    � schedule, then you at  least need to respond to the issue of the
    � Nebraskas, Houstons, and  Wyomings.  Virginia has not beaten any of
    � these undefeated teams on grass, turf, or any other surface.  
    
    And Nebraska, Houston, and Wyoming didn't play Clemson and won't play
    Georgia Tech, either.   Both of these teams were/are undefeated going
    into their games with Virginia.  So what ???   Past reputation doesn't
    score points.   This year's players score the points.   *If* Virginia
    gets to play any of these teams in a bowl, I hope it's a great game. 
    Period.  End of story.
    
    I will say it again.  It is past time that the big boys of college
    football acknowledge that their long-time stranglehold on the game is
    fast disappearing.   Miami was the first team to stake this claim with
    their 1983 national title over Nebraska.  Other schools like West
    Virginia, Colorado, and now Virginia are hammering the point home.  The
    polls have served their purpose.  Back in the days when only about a
    dozen or so schools could have hoped for a title.   Now the polls and
    those schools themselves are out-of-date with the modern realities. 
    The old football "factories" will be the new "Rust Belt" of college
    athletics in the 1990s.
    
    About time some folks in here saw the light, too.
    
    Bob Hunt

If Virginia loses to Georgia Tech on Saturday, how low do you think
they will drop in the polls?   5th?  10th?    It would be hard to 
place Virginia in the top 10 in my view if they lose at home to Tech.

I think Tech has a shot...

    
    Okay, ND did *not* get leapfrogged in either poll after last week. 
    Marty had the order right but the polls reversed.  Nebraska is still #2
    in the UPI; ND is #2 in the AP.
    
    Bob, I'm on your side on this "new order" thing.  Yes, the change has
    been coming since the late 70's when the rules were changed.  However,
    I consider it to be a completely separate issue from the scheduling
    one.  If parity is now the watchword, more than ever schedule
    disparities must be resolved.  I shudder to think what will happen in
    the 90's if Miami continues to maintain a strong program (and given the
    talent in Florida I have no reason to believe that they won't) in their
    Big East set-up.  If the system is moving towards one of superconferences 
    where the emphasis is placed solely on winning one's conference, and yet 
    a poll remains in place, there is little to determine the differences
    between conferences outside of a few big end-of-season bowl games. 
    There are now too many good teams for the bowls to serve this purpose. 
    
    Even given our differing opinions on Virginia's overall strength *this
    year* (in 1987 it was Syracuse, 1988 West Virginia, next year someone
    else), I think you would agree that this could become a problem, and
    one that wasn't there fifteen years ago when each year there might be 
    only a half-dozen legitimate contenders.
    
    glenn
     

    � If parity is now the watchword, more than ever schedule disparities
    � must be resolved.  
    
    I agree.  But it doesn't happen overnight since the two issues are not
    mutually intertwined.   Football schedules are set too far in advance
    for this to happen "naturally".   Basketball schedules, for example,
    are much easier to adjust to talent levels on a year-by-year basis.
    
    Virginia has upgraded its talent beyond its schedule.  Nebraska has
    downgraded its schedule below its talent.   There is a balance
    somewhere between these two "extremes".
    
    � I shudder to think what will happen in the 90's if Miami continues to
    � maintain a strong program (and given the talent in Florida I have no
    � reason to believe that they won't) in their Big East set-up.  
    
    There is no Big East football.   The Big East now has four independents
    (Pitt, Miami, Syracuse, and BC) who will gradually move towards playing
    each other.   Each of these teams will still have 7 other
    non-conference games to line up.
    
    � There are now too many good teams for the bowls to serve this purpose. 
    
    Parity.  Plain and simple.  And Virginia is as good or better than
    anyone else *this* year.  Not year in and year out.  *This* year.
    
    � I think you would agree that this could become a problem
    
    I'm not sure what exactly you mean by a "problem" but I know I'm
    enjoying this year's "problem" immensely.
    
    Bob Hunt

    
    > There is no Big East football.   The Big East now has four independents
    > (Pitt, Miami, Syracuse, and BC) who will gradually move towards playing
    > each other.   Each of these teams will still have 7 other
    > non-conference games to line up.
    
    I understand this.  But there is talk of adding others, including West
    Virginia and the likes of Virginia Tech, Temple, Rutgers, etc., and/or
    aligning with the SWC or ACC.  Given the great football I've gotten 
    used to seeing Miami play in the 1980's (ND, Penn State, Oklahoma, 
    Michigan, Florida St., Florida, etc.), neither prospect excites me.
    You would think that the NCAA might have the foresight to start
    thinking about what all these superconference deals will do to the
    overall product and react appropriately (right now it's every man for 
    himself), but then again this is the NCAA we're talking about.
    
    glenn
    

    regarding note .115 
    
    To state that Washington's (PAC10) "conference brethern are weak", is 
    babble, pure unadulterated babble. 
    
    note .118
    
    To state that California is in the running, shows how weak the PAC10 is.
    More true, clear and clean babble, of the highest order.
    
    Please do not compare USC, California, Standford, Oregon, ASU, 
    Arizona State- even WSU and UCLA with Virginia's conference foes.
    Want parity- it exists at the highest level in the PAC10.
    
    The NY Times poll, based on records and opponents records has
    U ov VA ranked 1, and the Huskies #2.
    
    

    JD's hero, Lou Holtz says that Notre Dame shouldn't even be in the top
    10.
    
    Dan

       Right Dan, then he'll whine if he isn't.
                                            Denny

>       Right Dan, then he'll whine if he isn't.
    
    
    Exactly.  If ND's #1 Holtz cries that they're undeserving.  When
    they're not #1 (i.e. after last year's Orange Bowl) he cries that ND
    should be #1.  
    
    Joe          
     

    I fail to see hard logic behind the hate for Notre Dame. As you know
    I am an AVID Nebraska fan so I have my bias. But I fail to see why
    people hate ND so much. Man, ND can do NOTHING right according to some
    of you guys.
    
    I'd even like to see Nebraska vs ND in the Orange Bowl. What a matchup
    and what tradition.
    
    What Gives?
    
    Nebraska Marty    GO BIG RED !!!

    
    WHAT IF:
    
    	Illinois had not played Arizona, the Illini would be ranked #1.
      
    	Notre Dame had not played Stanford, the Irish would be ranked #1.
    
        BYU had not played Oregon, the Cougars would be ranked #1.
    
        U of VA played any of the above, or Wahsington, USC, ASU,
        the Cavaliers would not be ranked #1.
    

    
    >	Illinois had not played Arizona, the Illini would be ranked #1.
      
    >	Notre Dame had not played Stanford, the Irish would be ranked #1.
    
    >   BYU had not played Oregon, the Cougars would be ranked #1.
    
    But let's not forget the most important one:
    
    If Washington had not played Colorado, the Huskies would be ranked #1.
    
    While the Pac-10 may be well-balanced, seven of its ten teams have lost
    out of conference.  The other three are Arizona, with only two games
    outside of the Pac-10, one against New Mexico; Oregon, with two WAC,
    one Big Sky, and one Big West opponent; and USC, which has a game
    remaining with Notre Dame.  All that and only Washington appears to
    have established any superiority within the conference.
    
    The Pac-10 is 9-8 overall against the Big-10, Big-8, SWC, and 1-A
    Independents (no games against the SEC or ACC).  They are, however, a
    stellar 9-5 against the always-tough WAC, Big Sky, and Big West. 
    Obviously an underrated conference, this Pac-10.
    
    Clearly, Brent Musberger doesn't know what he's talking about, again.
                                                                  
    glenn
    

    Marty,
    
    Irrational hate for Notre Dame?  Nope, not me.  I admire the way they
    took an advantage and parlayed it into what they are today.  By virtue
    of their being the premier football-playing Catholic university, they
    captured a natural market and the press in our urban locales.  They
    became one of the first truly national universities along with Army and
    Navy, who also had a natural constituency.  They continue to exploit
    that advantage today and there's nothing wrong with it, it's just good
    business sense.
    
    What I object to about Notre Dame is the perceived overrating at times
    of some of their players and of the program.  I don't blame Notre Dame
    for that, I blame the people who do the rating, but it doesn't make me
    like Notre Dame any better.  What I really object to is the sanctimony
    coming from the school in general, and the whining and complaining from 
    Lou Holtz in particular.  If the place is going to set itself up as
    something special and far above the rest of the rabble then it has to
    expect to not be liked by a lot of people and to hear a lot of
    rejoicing when they fall.
    
    It's kind of like what used to happen with UMass in football when we
    played Harvard.  Being called "barbarians", being looked down upon
    because we were a state university and hearing chants like "you may be
    winning but you'll all be working for us someday" coming from a bunch
    of tweed clad, nerdy looking four eyed dweebs who wouldn't know if a
    football is blown up or stuffed really got under my skin.  Same thing
    with Notre Dame.  They think they're better than everyone else.  In
    some ways they are, but it doesn't mean I have to like hearing about it
    all the time.
    
    John

    Thank you, John Hendry, for another note that is the definitive reply
    to all previous notes in a topic.  Maybe this one should be marked for
    mandatory reading also.
    
    John, you really don't belong in this conference.  You make too much
    sense.
    
    	--dan'l

    Sheesh...you guys aren't gonna swap spit or anything, are you?
    
    Mark.

    John, go to the head of the class!  :-)
    
    Mark, go to the principal's office again!  :-)
    
    Hawk

    regarding .135
    
    Ya, but three of the loses were by Oregon State, the Wake Forest,
    Kansas, (but not William and Mary) of the PAC10.
    
    

    Thanks, Dan'l.
    
    No thanks, Mark, he's not my type.
    
    John

    > Ya, but three of the loses were by Oregon State, the Wake Forest,
    > Kansas, (but not William and Mary) of the PAC10.
    
    Whenever I've made an argument against the Pac-10 being that great,
    it's mainly been based on their weakness at the top over the past
    decade, to which the response has been "yeah, but what about top to
    bottom...".  Unfortunately, Oregon State happens to be at the very
    bottom.  Even Kansas crushed 'em.
    
    glenn
    

    rep .134 You need to get into comedy!!!!!! :-)
    
    
                             M.J. 

    Notre Dame #1...
    
    For a week only till we kick their a$$ Saturday..
    
    UT by a bunch... GO BIG ORANGE
    
    Rich

Many teams were eliminated from National championship contention over
the week-end (Virginia, Auburn, Nebraska, Illinois).

I think it looks real good for Washington right now.  I feel ND will
either slip this coming Saturday against Tenn or at USC but still
win their bowl game.  Washington only has a home game against UCLA
and away at Washington ST with a potential ROSE bowl match with IOWA.


                                                    Alan

CNN/USA Top 10

	1. Notre Dame
	2. Washington
	3. Houston
	4. Colorado
	5. Miami-FL
	6. Georgia Tech
	7. Iowa
	8. BYU
	9. Virginia
	10. Tennessee

TTom

              
    It's starting to look like a Washington-Iowa matchup in the Rose Bowl
    will be as close as we get to a national championship game (if ND loses
    against one of three tough remaining opponents).  It's as interesting a
    matchup as any, too.
    
    Don't worry about Houston, either.  They haven't played their toughest
    games yet (Texas and Arizona St).  It remains to be seen what will
    happen when they run up against a defense.  And how can a national
    championship team give up NCAA-record passing yardage against TCU?
    
    glenn
    

Well as noted earlier Virginia is not all that they where cracked up to be.
    Hey love them or hate them, Notre Dame plays a incrediable schedule and
    comes to play every week.  Tom Osborn proved again how much of a stiff
    he truly is.  Real tough schedule Tom.  Once again it reaffirms the
    need for a college playoff. Looking forward to ND-Tenn, for you Boston
    fans thats channel 7 at 2pm this Saturday!!!!
    
    Greg 
    

    It seems, however, that Georgia Tech is not being given the credit for
    a great win.  Come on, folks, Virginia was "what it was cracked up to
    be."  Georgia Tech beat them.  GT is 7-0-1.  For this team not to be in
    the top five is a crime.
    
    Can someone post the remaining schedules for the top five teams?  The
    whole bowl picture is a mess.
    
    	--dan'l

    
           <<< OURGNG::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS.NOTE;2 >>>
                 -< OURGNG::SPORTS - Digital's daily tabloid >-
================================================================================
Note 388.6                 College Football- Who's #1?                  6 of 149
ROCK::GRONOWSKI "the dream is always the same..."     3 lines  16-OCT-1990 14:32
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    UVa will lost to GaTech... so there's no need to worry about them.
    
    

> Georgia Tech beat them.  GT is 7-0-1.  For this team not to be in
> the top five is a crime.
    
    All true dan'l but that "1" hanging on the end of their record was
    against a North Carolina team that had won exactly 2 games the last 2
    years!  (Both the wins were of the 1AA kind too.)
    
    We've improved, granted, but not enough to beat a legitimate Top 5
    team.  Virginia should've won but (IMHO) they choked in a big game ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris

>    We will try to help you all move higher after we kick NDs a$$ this
>    Saturday in Knoxville.
    
>    Go Vols
    
     You know it!!
    
    Which brings me directly to my point.  With all this talk from the Lee
    Corso and the newspapers about CU and ND meeting in the Orange Bowl, you
    would think that ND had cancelled their game with Tennessee!
    
    Joe   

	Tennessee plays a big game against Notre Dame this weekend in
	Knoxville, and then travels to Memphis to play Mississippi.  That
	game may even be a more important game, as the UT-Ole Miss winner
	will probably be the Sugar Bowl host team.

CNN/USA Top 10 remaining schedules:

 1. Notre Dame	at Tennessee, Penn St, at Southern Cal.
 2. Washington	UCLA, at Washington St.
 3. Houston	at Texas, East Washington, Arizona St (Tokyo).
 4. Colorado	Oklahoma St, Kansas St.
 5. Miami-FL	Boston College, Syracuse, at San Diego St.
 6. Ga Tech	Va Tech, at Wake Forest, at Georgia.
 7. Iowa	Ohio St, Purdue, at Minnesota.
 8. BYU		at Wyoming, at Utah, Utah St, at Hawaii.
 9. Virginia	at No Carolina, Maryland, at Va Tech.
10. Tennessee	Notre Dame, Mississippi (Memphis), Kentucky, at Vanderbilt.

TTom

    Washington should be #1.  They play a reasonably tough schedule, and
    the only loss they have had is to an obviously tough Colorado team.  As
    I pointed out week's ago, the voter's leniency with Notre Dame after
    they lost to Stanford was a clear example of the things that go on off
    the field that annually keep Notre Dame closer to the top then they
    often deserve.
    
    Dan

I like Washington a lot but I don't have a lot of sympathy for PAC10 or
Big10 schools about being no 1. If they weren't tie to the almighty
dollar of the Rose Bowl, they could go to other bowls and win a national
champhioship. 

Also, until the conferences abandon their tie-ins with the bowls, there
won't be a national playoff. The SEC has also suffered from this being
locked into the Sugar Bowl.

Notre Dame has all of the marketing necessary to keep them high in the
rankings. However, they can't win the national championship without
winning on New Year's Day. They also have a talent at doing this.

TTom

    How in the world can CU be ranked behind a team that they beat?
    
    CU has played one of if not the toughest schedule in the country.
    
    Tennessee, Washington, Texas, Illinois, Oklahoma, Nebraska and the
    team that beat ND at home.  
    
    Frank Mendez
    

    And should have lost to Missouri but were given 5 downs to beat them. 
    The pollsters won't forget this.  And if CU should play for the
    national championship, they'll never get the respect of any of the
    media because you'll see the 5th down on TV over and over and over...
    
    	--dan'l

                              
    I can't decide between Notre Dame and Washington and if it comes down
    to both having the one loss after the bowls it'll be a crying shame,
    but I'd have to go with ND on the basis of schedule.  Washington has
    been laying it on teams lately, but other than the one major shocker ND
    has done nothing but win.  If that were to continue against Tennessee,
    Penn State, USC, and say Colorado in the Orange I don't think you could
    question the selection.  Additionally, they convincingly beat what I 
    still consider to be one of the three best teams in the country, Miami.
    Pretty solid credentials.  Dan?
    
    Is it worse to beat all your worthy opponents in the big games but
    suffer a letdown against an obviously inferior team like Stanford or to
    beat all but one of your tough opponents like Washington has done?  I
    lean towards the former.  In the latter case, Colorado can make a
    strong claim to being better than Washington, especially since their
    tie came in an extra pre-season game against one of the toughest teams
    in the country (Tennessee), a gamble that raises additional revenue
    for the program but can only hurt your ranking.  Obviously, Stanford can 
    not make a similar claim against Notre Dame.  Thus far, no one can.
    
    glenn
    

    I have this feeling that the teams who need to lose for CU to end
    up number 1 will indeed lose.  I just hope that CU does not go
    flat against OSU and K State.
    
    Frank Mendez.

I would love to see a rematch of the CU - Washington game. IMHO these are the
2 best teams in the country right now. If ND makes it through the rest of their
schedule undefeated and plays CU in the Orange bowl then I think that that 
game should be for the national championship. 

Everybody has Husky fever around here but the papers say that all they want to
do is go to the Rose Bowl. They aren't playing for a national championship. 
Unfortunately they are tied into the Rose Bowl and will never get the 
opportunity to play for one. I agree with the previous noter that said the 
PAC-10 and the Big 10 have sold out National Championship aspirations for the
$$$$. 

Washington has been killing their opponents and I think that they are a great
team but the only top level competition they have played this year is CU and
they lost to them. I would love to see the Huskies win the Nat championship
but I would rather see them play the best ranked team at the time for it
instead of previously selected conference champion that might not even be ranked
in the top 5 come bowl time.

If Washington wins the mythical championship by beating an unworthy foe in the 
Rose Bowl and watching a team like CU beat ND in the Orange Bowl than I will 
consider it as weak a championship as BYU's was.

Metz

    >If that were to continue against Tennessee,
    >Penn State, USC, and say Colorado in the Orange I don't think you could
    >question the selection.  Additionally, they convincingly beat what I 
    >still consider to be one of the three best teams in the country, Miami.
    >Pretty solid credentials.  Dan?
    
    If they go on winning against that crew of teams, AND Washington goes
    on winning, a lot of credit has to be given to ND's strength of
    schedule.  But will they face a Colorado team that is a much better
    team than last year, or will they search for the overmatched opponent
    come bowl time as they have the last two years?
    
    I don't see, Glenn, how you say it's better to lose to a patsy on the
    schedule than one of the tough teams, as is the case you seem to be
    making for ND over Washington.  You say ND suffered a letdown, which
    sounds more like excuse-making marketing hype, yet don't apply the same
    hype to Washington's loss against a far superior team.   I think what
    you might mean is that ND can force this sort of sleight-of-hand down
    the voter's throats than they could a loss to Miami.  Should good
    marketing decide the National Championship.
     
    As was shown with other teams that lost to much better teams than
    Stanford, a non-ND team which suffered than "letdown" would have been
    dropped to about 15 or worse, and would still be fighting their way
    back up with the other 1-loss teams.  With proper consideration to the
    schedule, and the quality of the team they lost to, we might be talking
    more of a 6-team fight now, with Washington having a clear edge.
    
    Dan

> If Washington wins the mythical championship by beating an unworthy foe in the 
> Rose Bowl and watching a team like CU beat ND in the Orange Bowl than I will 
> consider it as weak a championship as BYU's was.
    
    Not even close.  The Rose Bowl looks like it's going to be for real
    this year for the first time in years.  Iowa (if they can finish off
    strong with three wins against Big-10 opponents) is a worthy opponent.  
    Beating Michigan and crushing Illinois on foreign turf is no mean feat.  
    Only Miami has beat Iowa, in Miami, as I think the Hurricanes would do 
    to Washington if they had to play there.  Iowa's Matt Rodgers can throw 
    the football, folks.  I think Washington-Iowa is a tough matchup.
    
    The Rose Bowl affiliation does hurt, but I wouldn't be so cynical with
    the teams for supposedly "selling out", guys.  The Rose Bowl and its
    tradition with the Pac-10 and Big-10 goes back to the end of the
    WWII, long before the big money poured in.  I have a much harder time
    with the veritable plethora of bowl games that have sprung out of
    nowhere for little more reason than filling TV time from Thanksgiving
    to New Year's.  If a great team from either of the very lucrative
    Big-10 or Pac-10 conferences wanted to break rank and play in a
    TV-sponsored national championship bowl, they'd easy bring in as
    much money as the Rose Bowl offers.
    
    glenn
     

 Also Glenn, Washington lost to CU in Boulder in a close tough game. ND
 lost at home to a weak opponent. I think based on this Washington deserves
 higher marks.....

 If ND looses again do you think they would consider a rematch with Miami in the
 Fiesta? What if all the other teams except Miami loose again as well will they
 go for the rematch?

 Somehow I doubt it but as a fan I'd sure like to see it....

 mike

>Unfortunately they are tied into the Rose Bowl and will never get the 
>opportunity to play for one. I agree with the previous noter that said the 
>PAC-10 and the Big 10 have sold out National Championship aspirations for the
>$$$$. 
    
    You can accuse the conferences of stubbornly sticking to tradition, but
    I think selling out is a reach.  I think the Big 10 and Pac 10 think
    they keep the Rose Bowl important, which is likely a mistaken notion. 
    The Rose would likely be the most promiment bowl in terms of luring the
    national championship teams in, if they were given the choice.  Sure
    the money is the best for the Rose, but it's been that way for a long
    time.  The term, "selling out" would better be applied had those teams
    recently been tied in to the Rose after a long period of being an open
    bowl, or perhaps to a team that feels it needs to be on television
    every week at exactly the same time on the same channel so it's poor
    fans across the country don't have their weekend schedules upset.
    
    Dan

  It looks like the Rose bowl and the Orange bowl will be the 2 most
  important bowl games in deciding the national champion. Washinton and
  Iowa will both be ranked in the top 5. The same goes for CU vs ND (if ND
  continues to win). I've heard that if ND loses before the end of the season,
  Miami may go to the Orange Bowl. But what if Tennesse beats ND. Will they
  have a shot at the Orange Bowl or will they be locked into some other 
  game ? The CU vs Tennesse season opener was a terrific game. A rematch
  would be nice. 

  There is a possible interesting scenario. Washington is ranked above CU but
  CU beat Washinton. What if Washington and CU both win their bowl games.
  Will Washinton still be ranked above CU ?

  BTW, I see that Houston is ranked in the top 5. What tough teams have they
  beaten other than SMU ?

  					Keith 

    
    >                 -< You've been affected by the hype >-
    
    Save it for JD, Dan.  I'm not rooting for ND under any circumstances, 
    believe me (Go Vols, Go!).  Hype has nothing to do with my opinion here.
    
    > If they go on winning against that crew of teams, AND Washington goes
    > on winning, a lot of credit has to be given to ND's strength of
    > schedule.  But will they face a Colorado team that is a much better
    > team than last year, or will they search for the overmatched opponent
    > come bowl time as they have the last two years?
    
    A lot of credit?  Is this a concession to ND's championship claim if 
    they *do* go to and win the Orange Bowl versus, say, the Citrus?  I think 
    that's the way they'll go.  The Citrus will no longer be able to raise 
    the money to compete.  In fact, if Georgia Tech holds on they may walk 
    and give Virginia the Citrus.  We might as well get you on record on this 
    now as opposed to, say, after the USC game.
    
    > I don't see, Glenn, how you say it's better to lose to a patsy on the
    > schedule than one of the tough teams, as is the case you seem to be
    > making for ND over Washington.
    
    It's only a very slight difference at best.  The crux of my argument is
    the competition claim, which you've also conceded to.  Anything else is
    admittedly splitting hairs.
    
    > As was shown with other teams that lost to much better teams than
    > Stanford, a non-ND team which suffered than "letdown" would have been
    > dropped to about 15 or worse, and would still be fighting their way
    > back up with the other 1-loss teams.  With proper consideration to the
    > schedule, and the quality of the team they lost to, we might be talking
    > more of a 6-team fight now, with Washington having a clear edge.
    
    How so?  Notre Dame and Washington both lost their fourth game of the
    season, and remember that it was Michigan, already beaten by Notre Dame, 
    that was the first one-loss team to bounce back to the top.  What about 
    the quality of teams beaten, not lost to, as part of the equation?  Did
    these other teams beat Miami?  Maybe ND didn't fall far enough, but
    they've done more since to make up for it than the others, and have the 
    potential to do much, much more than anyone else (Tennessee, Penn
    St., USC, etc.).  
           
    In any case, let's not worry too much about the weekly machinations of 
    the polls, only the end results.  Does a four-game win streak including 
    the Orange Bowl merit the championship?  Let's have a definitive
    answer.  I think it does, but I must admit that I don't think this ND 
    team is capable of it, either.  That's a very tough row to hoe, but if
    it's accomplished it should be recognized, though.
    
    glenn
    

    >Is this a concession to ND's championship claim if 
    >they *do* go to and win the Orange Bowl versus, say, the Citrus?  I think 
    >that's the way they'll go.
    
    Is Citrus the one with the ACC commitment?  I keep track of teams
    better than Bowl contracts...  Anyway, if ND continues with their one
    defeat and plays a worthy NYD opponent, like CU, then I've got to give
    their schedule a strong consideration.  I'm bad with commitments...
    
    But I don't think examining whom a team lost to is splitting hairs.  I
    find it significant that UW lost to a high-quality team like CU, at CU,
    while ND lost to a low-quality team like Stanford, at South Bend.  This
    argument is part and parcel of a strength of schedule argument.
    
    >What about 
    >the quality of teams beaten, not lost to, as part of the equation?
    
    Of course!  I've never said anything but that.  But it doesn't wash
    away losing at home to a patsy.  Had ND lost, to say Michigan, and
    matched that up with Washington's loss at the hands of CU, there's no
    doubt that strength of schedule would be the only determining factor
    without a game to decide differences.  But this isn't the case, and so
    the quality of the loss must be factored into whatever equation will
    determine the myth.  RIght from the get-go, this factor was ignored by
    the voters, unfortunately and typically.
    
    >Does a four-game win streak including      	
    >the Orange Bowl merit the championship?
    
    If Washington and ND both continue without another loss?  I don't
    know.  It's my opinion (and I've only seen them play once) that UW is
    tops now, as I said earlier.  Would it be fair to knock them off the
    top rung if they continue undefeated?  If their was no Notre Dame
    factor, I'd have a hard time answering that.  But I'll join you in
    predicting that if ND continues unbeaten, they'll win it all, and they
    don't need the Orange Bowl for that.  They could play Houston, or
    Wesleyan, and still win that vote.
    
    Dan

    regarding note .161
    
    metz-  You have gotto be one miserable Jose, living in Seattle and
    disliking the Dawgs as much as you do.  All the Rose Bowl and Number
    One hype must make your day a long one and difficult one.
    
    Regarding your assertion that the Huskies have had only one 'top
    flight' opponent, I disagree.  What was USC ranked, at the time they
    played the Huskies- it was in the top 10.  Oregon was and is a Top 25
    team as was Arizona.  California, the Rodney Dangerfield of the
    conference, is no weakling either.  Colorado was lucky to beat 
    Stanford- who beat you know who.   Why is it that the Dawgs schedule
    is rated by USA and other polls to be one of the toughest?
    
    
    
    
    
    

    
    This "strength of loss" is a new one on me.  I'm still more impressed
    by a team that takes on all comers and beats all other scheduled 
    contenders to the title but loses to one patsy, than a team that loses 
    its *toughest* game and hasn't played a real tough one since.  I didn't 
    hear the "strength of loss" argument last year when Florida State
    dropped not one game, but *two*, to patsies and then made a claim to
    the title based on its victories over eventual #1 Miami and thrashing
    of Nebraska.  They had a pretty good argument, too (but not good
    enough).
    
    Under the same logic, how do you rate Washington over Colorado?  And 
    how does Washington, with victories over Arizona St., Oregon, Stanford,
    California, and Arizona since the loss to Colorado in their toughest 
    game have any greater claim than ND to the current top spot?  With USC
    again showing their relative weakness with Saturday's tie to Cal, I
    don't think Washington's claim is as strong as you think.  Washington's
    non-conference performance has been lackluster at best, too (Wash 20, 
    San Jose St. 17; Wash 20, Purdue 14; Colorado 20, Wash 14).   
    
    > If Washington and ND both continue without another loss?  I don't
    > know.  It's my opinion (and I've only seen them play once) that UW is
    > tops now, as I said earlier.  Would it be fair to knock them off the
    > top rung if they continue undefeated?
    
    You're succumbing to the system at its worst.  Like I said, I may have 
    a hard time deciding between Notre Dame and Washington at this time, and 
    the matter will likely decide itself anyway.  But if ND beats Tennessee,
    Penn St., USC, and Colorado I'm convinced, regardless of Washington's
    current ranking.  Why wouldn't it be fair to knock Washington off? 
    You've been critical of the polls, and now appear to be wedded to
    the idea that rankings shouldn't change unless losses are incurred. 
    Isn't this what you were criticizing ND for just last week (who would
    have been leapfrogged had Nebraska won, by the way, whether you believe
    it or not)?
    
    glenn
       

    Would be an interesting scenario if CU and Washington were to win the
    rest of their games.  Washington's only tough game left is the Rose
    Bowl against (probably) Iowa.  If CU plays and beats an Irish team
    ranked #1 in the Orange Bowl, it is going to one heck of a close vote
    and could even be split polls.  
    
    The other factor involved is Houston.  The Cougars play Texas this
    week in Austin.  It'll be interesting to see where Houston is ranked in
    the AP Poll tomorrow.  If they're ranked second, I don't see anybody
    jumping over them if they keep winning, even after the bowls.  Then again,
    the pollsters may slight them because they are on probation.
    
    Now, let's look at what should happen.  ND loses to
    Tennessee and Houston loses to Texas.  Then if Washington wins the Rose
    Bowl convincingly, they win the national championship.  But if UW
    barely wins the Rose Bowl or loses, the winner of the Miami-CU Orange
    Bowl will be national champ.
    
    Bottom line is this weekend could clear things up even more.  But as
    much as I hate to say it, if ND upsets Tennesee this week, I don't see
    the Irish losing to Penn State or USC.  
    
    Joe  

    >I didn't 
    >hear the "strength of loss" argument last year when Florida State
    >dropped not one game, but *two*
    
    Sure you did.  From Miami, remember, who only lost to Fla St.  Are they
    supposed to be embarrassed by a loss to Florida State?  Not if you ask
    me.  Was ND supposed to be embarrassed by a loss to Miami?  Uh-uh. 
    (OK, they should be embarrassed for begging for the National Title
    anyway, but that's ND for you...)
    
    It's always been important who you lose to.  The worse the team you
    lose to, the worse it should be for you, when comparing to teams with
    only one loss, all other things being equal (esp. schedule strength).
    
    >With USC
    >again showing their relative weakness with Saturday's tie to Cal, I
    >don't think Washington's claim is as strong as you think. 
    
    'SC was playing much better ball then.  THey've really fallen on hard
    times since.  THey've had two key injuries to the defense since then, a
    defense that was missing 2 of the top 5 in the NFL draft from the year
    before.  It's really thin now.  
    
    >how do you rate Washington over Colorado?
    
    Well, I'd say that Colorado is playing the best ball of anyone now. 
    How can they be denied after impressive back-to-back wins against Okie
    and Nebraska?  But there is a matter of the loss and the tie, and the
    other loss to Missouri.  In my head now, I think they'd win the
    imaginary playoff, and I could forgive them the tie for that.  But that
    Missouri game...no slack.
    
    >Why wouldn't it be fair to knock Washington off? 
    
    My statement has nothing to do with the system you've accused me of
    succombing to.  Rather I've succombed to logic.  If Washington is the
    best now, and they don't lose the rest of the way, including a
    non-patsy Rose Bowl, what evidence would I have of them getting
    relatively worse?  I can't assume ND will choose to play Colorado, I've
    given up hope for 'SC beating them, Penn St. isn't that impressive this
    year.  We could be talking one tough game the rest of the year for ND
    instead of the 4 in your presentation.  What's Washington's remaining
    schedule?  Is it so much poorer than ND's that it offsets the Stanford
    loss and my current personal ranking?
    
    Dan

    ND will lose to USC not Tennessee.  Don't underestimate the Trojans.
    California is a tough team, the tie should not be viewed as showing
    that USC is weak but that Cal is a strong team.  
    . 
    
    
    

I never stated that I disliked the Huskies. In fact I think it's great that they
are doing as well as they are. I'm a happy camper that they have had such a
successful season. I might even go to the game next week. I think that they
have an excellent team, but I don't think that they have proven that they
are the best team in the country and I'd rather see them play the highest
ranked team they can on Jan 1 rather than being locked into the Rose Bowl.

Iowa is a decent team but I think CU or Miami or Nd would be a better test of
Washington than Iowa.

I actually expect Washington to go into the Rose Bowl ranked #1. I think ND will
lose 1 of its last 3 games. I also think that Houston will lose 1 also. 

I like to see the #1 and #2 teams in the country go head to head on Jan 1 and
the whole thing gets settled on the field (relatively) instead of relying on
a whole bunch of "reporters" and "coaches" to decide matters. With Washington
playing in the Rose Bowl we're not going to see this.

As far as their strength of schedule goes....The Pac 10 as a whole is pretty
weak this year. A lot of the PAC 10 teams get voting points based on past
history rather then present performance (USC especially). I think the Huskies
may have the best team in the country...the quotes from other coaches make it
seem like they do...I'd just like to see them prove by playing the best
competition on Jan 1....


Metz

    Tennessee WILL beat ND Saturday....  Knoxville has been waiting for
    this game all year. That's all everybody is talking about. We will be
    ready, and we will kick ass. Watch and see.
    
    Colorado may be the best team in the nation. Right now... You don't
    never know what that month off from December 1 to Janurary 1 will do to
    a team. A coach makes his money that month of the season.
    
    Vols by a bunch...
    Rich

Tennessee has moved to -4 over Notre Dame. It should be a very pivotal
game for both teams. If Tennessee wins, they're in the #1 picture, big
time. If ND wins, it will make them the de facto champ - assuming they
win the rest - going into the bowls. 

TTom

    
    > What's Washington's remaining
    > schedule?  Is it so much poorer than ND's that it offsets the Stanford
    > loss and my current personal ranking?   
    
    Absolutely, if, and I stress *if*, ND plays Colorado (I included this
    condition in my challenge to you; you've apparently ignored it).  I'll 
    give you USC, although I wouldn't give up all hope in that game yet 
    (maybe Marinovich can get his head screwed on in time), but Penn State 
    is still fairly strong.  You'll recall the game they gave to USC when 
    USC was still all together, and they've gotten tougher defensively if 
    anything.  Tennessee at Knoxville is as tough a game as anyone can play.  
    With the Colorado game, I see two very tough games, one moderate, and 
    one fairly weak game.
    
    By comparison, Washington has UCLA (at home), Washington St., and
    probably Iowa.  That totals one tough game (maybe; Iowa's got a way to 
    go) and two very weak ones.
    
    You are obviously weighing the strength of teams lost to much more
    heavily than the strength of teams played overall, and I'm not sure
    why (either that or you mistakenly believe that Washington's road is 
    as tough as Notre Dame's).  While you appear to like this specific 
    criteria *this year*, it has never been considered the most important
    one.  Oklahoma won it all in 1975 when their only loss came to Kansas, 
    late in the season no less.  USC took a piece of the title in 1978 in 
    large part because their only loss was to weak, first-year Pac-10 
    member Arizona St.  Penn State did the same with unranked Alabama in 
    1982.  In an otherwise tough schedule, dropping a supposedly easy one 
    has not historically been grounds for elimination, nor should it be.
    If I see two teams with one loss that don't have the opportunity to 
    play each other, I'll go with the tougher schedule, regardless of who 
    the loss came to.  You disagree?
    
    > In my head now, I think they'd win the
    > imaginary playoff, and I could forgive them the tie for that.  But that
    > Missouri game...no slack.
    
    Firstly, not only *should* the tie be forgiven, it should be credited.
    When you add a pre-season game with Tennessee to your already tough
    schedule, and you don't come away with a loss (the Vols played for
    the tie, too), that's in your favor.  This is opposed to Washington
    opening with San Jose St. and coming close to losing, 20-17.
    
    Secondly, the Missouri thing has become a false rallying cry for
    do-gooders nationwide.  The game was played *at* Missouri, with a
    Missouri down-keeper, Missouri scoreboard operators, and Missouri
    statisticians in the press box.  Then, when the Big-8 officials screw
    up, I read in here how it was *Colorado* that sneakily let the game go 
    on with knowledge of the number of downs, all while the clock is running
    and they're trying to run a hurry-up offense.  To honest observers, if
    anyone outside of the officials is at fault for inaction during those
    final seconds, it's the Missouri coaching staff, who have the right 
    *under the rules* to ask for an officials' time-out and a conference to 
    straigten things out.  
    
    Unfortunately (and I *do* have a major problem with this), the entire 
    situation was exacerbated by a post-game performance of unabashed
    whining by Bill McCartney.  Otherwise, especially since Colorado wasted 
    a down anyway under the officials' mistake, I don't feel they have 
    anything to be sorry for, and have been unfairly penalized because of it, 
    in part due to the ungraciousness of their coach.  The sentiment of a
    bad taste left in the mouth by a pompous coach should not enter into the 
    polls, though.   Otherwise, we could count out Notre Dame before the
    the first down is played.  ;-)
    
    glenn
     

Those who are touting Houston for the National champs don't get any help
from the Cougars schedule. Hosting East Washington on Nov 17 might
further Klingers stats but it won't help him in the Heisman and won't
help the team in the polls. Playing a weak team at a critical time ain't
gonna get it done.

TTom

    I don't know, Glenn.  I still have a hard time reconciling giving more
    credit to a team for losing to a bad team than a good one.  You've
    given evidence that teams have lost to bad teams and gone on to the
    title, but what was the competition they faced?  Was it a team with the
    same record?  With a reasonably difficult schedule?  Whose only loss
    was away to a very good team?  Those are a lot of mitigating
    circumstances which, to me, amount to more than the splitting of hairs. 
    If we assume (a stretch, based on past choices) that ND deigns to play
    CU in the bowls, has the strength of ND's schedule off set the HUGE
    difference in the quality of each team's only loss?  All I can say is
    that it's possible, but not definite.  At that time, I'd put some stock
    into how each team looked on New Year's Day in their (assumed) wins.
    
    >You are obviously weighing the strength of teams lost to much more
    >heavily than the strength of teams played overall, and I'm not sure
    >why
    
    No, I'm weighing them nearly equal.  They have the same record, ND
    plays the tougher schedule, but it's no landslide.  Washington's loss
    came to a much, much tougher team.  If I were weighing the loss in the
    way you state, there would be no dilemma.  But I also look at what's
    been happening recently.  ND beat Pitt, but it wasn't a very convinging
    win, the same Pitt that was just destroyed by Miami.  ND squeaked by
    Michigan and should have lost to Michigan St.  But Washington, since
    some early season jitters has been positively been destroying
    opponents!  By the end of the season, who are the common opponents for
    the two teams?  I know USC...Did Washington play Stanford?  Will ND
    play CU?  
    
    The more you've made me think about this, the further I'm engrossed in
    the conclusion that it's not as cut and dried as you seem to believe. 
    But again, if all the assumptions take place I know that what you say
    will come to pass.  And it won't even be close.  Such is the sway on
    the voters.
    
    >Secondly, the Missouri thing has become a false rallying cry for
    >do-gooders nationwide.
    
    I've said what I had to say on this subject in the Big 8 topic.  The
    officials made a mistake; CU directly benefited from it.  I'm not going
    to blame Missouri, nor give CU credit for a legitimate win.  It was
    tainted, and would have been a likely loss otherwise.
    
    Dan
                                                         

FYI

Washington crushed Stanford...


Metz

    I have a hard time seeing Virginia at #11 only because they lost a
    close game to a very tough team while Miami is considered to have a
    great shot at winning the Mythical.  Everyone seems to be debating over
    the difficulty of the 1 loss that many top teams have experienced,
    meanwhile, Miami will wind up with a sneak job while having been blown
    out twice by 2 weaker teams!
    
    I agree that Miami is one heckuva great team, but let's face it, they
    lost twice.  IMO, they should not be allowed in the Top 10, and they
    should not be invited to a bowl that has possible Mythical written all
    over it.  Also, Virginia shouldn't have dropped any lower than #5-6. 
    I'd say they're at least #4..........
    
    Hawk

    re .130
    
    Dan,  Lou Holtz ain't my hero - if he is, then Wade Boggs is yours.
    
    re .132
    JOe, yep, just like Jimmy JOhnson cried the year before.
    
    Tata
    
    Without reading through, I feel ND isn't #1, nor is Washington.
     No matter what Matt says, the Pac10 is woefully weak.
    
    jD

    
    jD
    ^
    ^

	Well guys he definately married. Notice how he's dropped the
        capital J cause he don't wear the pants no more?

         ;^) congrats, welcome back and how about them GIANTS!!!!!!

mike

    Here we go again - strength of schedule.  Interesting to note that
    the power ratings in USA Today have Washington #1 and Notre Dame #17.
    
    Will you all allow me the privilege of debunking the myth of the
    tough Notre Dame schedule once again?  Thank you.
    
    Here are the schedules of Notre Dame, Washington, and Colorado - for
    now the top three teams in the running for #1.  Let's compare each
    school's opponents won-loss record:
    
    NOTRE DAME 7-1	WASHINGTON   8-1	COLORADO    8-1-1
    
    Michigan   5-3	San Jose St  6-2-1	Tennessee   5-1-2
    Mich State 4-3-1	Purdue       1-7	Stanford    3-6
    Purdue     1-7      Southern Cal 6-2-1      Illinois    6-2
    Stanford   3-6      Colorado     8-1-1      Texas       6-1
    Air Force  4-5      Ariz State   3-5        Washington  8-1
    Miami      6-2      Oregon       7-2        Missouri    3-6
    Pitt       3-5-1    Stanford     3-6        Iowa State  3-5-1
    Navy       3-5      California   5-3-1      Kansas      3-5-1
    			Arizona      6-3        Oklahoma    6-3
    						Nebraska    8-1
    TOTALS:   29-36-1               45-31-3                51-31-4
    
    From these totals, and looking at the teams played, it is quite
    clear that Colorado has played the toughest of the three schedules,
    Washington's is a close second, and Notre Dame's lags far behind.
    
    Let's examine the one common opponent of all three teams, Stanford,
    and see how each team has done against the Cardinal.
    
    Colorado defeated Stanford 21-17.
    Notre Dame lost at home to Stanford 36-31.
    Washington destroyed Stanford 52-16.
    
    On any basis you want to compare, Notre Dame should rank third
    when compared to Washington and Colorado.  I would give Washington
    a slight edge over CU as the top team in the country.  However,
    if Notre Dame defeats Tennessee, Penn State, and USC, I would
    consider them to be on a par with the other two teams.
    
    NAZZ
    

                                   
    Clearly, San Jose St. at 6-2-1 is better than 5-3 Michigan.  A very
    faulty way of measuring strength of schedule.
    
    The Sagarin power ratings are better, but nowhere close to perfect.  For 
    instance, they rank Michigan at #7 and Notre Dame #17.  Because Sagarin
    does not publish his algorithm, I can only guess that he assigns a
    disproportionate amount of credit to offensive and defensive statistics
    (weighted against the competition) rather than the old-fashioned W's and 
    L's, which are most important but provide very little data.  Don't
    forget, Sagarin is a handicapper and he uses these power ratings to 
    set point spreads.  The system is not necessarily well-designed for
    national rankings, where head-to-head wins and losses are more
    important.  Notre Dame apparently loses out because they've won ugly, 
    even against weak competition, but at least they've won.
    
    In any case, I haven't said that Notre Dame is #1, nor that their
    schedule has been the toughest *to date*.  I was only trying to
    lay the groundwork for an end-of-season consensus with Dan in the
    unlikely event that ND does finish off the season with wins over their
    very tough remaining opponents, in order to prevent unnecessary and 
    unwarranted complaining about the polls and ND's bowl selection
    process come January 2.  He didn't bite, so it's up for grabs, I guess.
    
    The more *I* think about it, the more I think Colorado should be #1
    right now.
    
    glenn
      

    >Clearly, San Jose St. at 6-2-1 is better than 5-3 Michigan.  A very
    >faulty way of measuring strength of schedule.
    
    I'll be the first to admit that W-L % isn't everything in rating a
    team, but Glenn you've been beating me about the head and shoulders
    with Notre Dame's schedule strength.  Now that we take a look at it, I
    see that 5 of ND's 8 opponents have sub-.500 records.  No matter how
    you slice that, it's none too impressive.
    
    The only title-worthy game ND's played this year is the impressive win
    over Miami.  The squeaker over Michigan and the luck job over an
    unimpressive Michigan St. round out their over-.500 competition.
    
    Shades of 1973, when ND lied about their competition to swindle a
    national championship from Alabama.  After NYD all you heard was
    schedule strength, and the voters were moved.  it turned out that year
    that ND had a sub-.500 schedule as well.
    
    Dan

    > I'll be the first to admit that W-L % isn't everything in rating a
    > team, but Glenn you've been beating me about the head and shoulders
    > with Notre Dame's schedule strength.
    
    End of season, Dan, at the end of the season, I said.  Don't distort me.  
    I said after Tennessee, Penn State, USC, *and* Colorado *if* they play
    them (and barring losses by either I see no reason they won't, as
    Colorado represents the highest-ranked available opponent in the
    biggest-money game).  These games differentiate the schedules.  There 
    are no more Air Forces, Navys, or San Diego States left.
    
    > Shades of 1973, when ND lied about their competition to swindle a
    > national championship from Alabama.  After NYD all you heard was
    > schedule strength, and the voters were moved.  it turned out that year
    > that ND had a sub-.500 schedule as well.
    
    Good one, Dan!  A big underdog ND beat Alabama in the national 
    championship Sugar Bowl that year.  Some swindle!
    
    glenn
    

    >End of season, Dan, at the end of the season, I said.  Don't distort me.  
    
    Okay, okay.  But then right now, who would you rate higher, Washington
    or ND, and why?  Do you factor the relative strength of the loss in? 
    That's how I can't understand how you give ND preference for losing to
    a patsy.
    
    My point with 1973 was that we've heard the strength of schedule
    argument used before describing a sub-.500 record.  And I'm sure we'll
    hear it again next season when Miami is substitiuted for by one of the
    Big 10 weak sisters.
    
    Dan

                   
    > Okay, okay.  But then right now, who would you rate higher, Washington
    > or ND, and why?  Do you factor the relative strength of the loss in? 
    
    Right now, I go with Colorado, Notre Dame, Washington.  My main reason
    for ranking ND ahead of Washington is that I feel they've beaten (not
    crushed, not destroyed, just beaten) two teams, Miami and Michigan,
    better than anyone Washington has beaten.  I give bonus points for the
    win against Miami, who I honestly felt was the best team in the country 
    at the time.  The combination, for me, outweighs the relative strength
    of the loss to Stanford versus Washington's loss to the *only* superior 
    team they've played.  Washington has played more middling teams to ND's 
    mediocre-to-poor ones, but I'm less concerned with games that either 
    would win than with the real big ones.  ND is 2-0 in the big ones;
    Washington 0-1.  
    
    Can I explain the loss to Stanford?  Honestly, no.  Can I explain 
    Washington's to Colorado?  I think Colorado is better. 
    
    > My point with 1973 was that we've heard the strength of schedule
    > argument used before describing a sub-.500 record.
    
    This is the first I've heard of this argument being used in 1973.  Why
    would it be?  An undefeated Notre Dame beat an undefeated Alabama in a
    game that was set up as the national championship.  You're not making
    this up, are you?  (I would have believed you if you'd said 1977, but
    since you're the one making the claim...)
    
    glenn
    

    I follow your rankings of CU, ND, UW.  I don't necessarily agree, but I
    follow.  I'd just like to point out that earlier you seemed content
    with the record, and strength of schedule, and awarded ND relative
    bonus points for getting beat at home by a patsy.  Now your defining
    ND's ranking by its wins over the superior teams on the schedule,
    Michigan and Miami.  I'm not criticizing that, but illuminating it as a
    factor that previously wasn't cited.
    
    I may, in fact, mean 1977.  I don't remember the records of college
    football as well as you do.  I recently read an article which mentioned
    ND's bragging about strength of schedule before in trying to appeal to
    the voters, when in fact their schedule was sub-.500.
    
    Dan

    I'm thinking of starting a petition - the petition will be to close
    Notre Dame down as a college, or if that can't be achieved, to ban
    them from playing college ball.  And it goes further, all records
    will be washed forever from the books.  ALl National Championships
    rescinded.  All Heisman's returned.  
    
    The school sucks.  No one who ever went there, played there, or
    is stupid enough to root from them should be allowed into society.
    The beating should commence now.  Shock therapy.  Sterilization
    to clean the gene pool.   
    
    That will make lots of people happy.  There will be no more overrated
    college players or teams.  World peace will happen.   Crime will
    drop.   There will never be another arguement over who's #1.
    Everything will be black and white.   The voter's will not be swayed
    by the media or other intangibles.   Dan and Joe and Nazz will be
    happy.
    
    JD

    
    Ya gotta have mighty big lats to yank a chain that big, JD!
    

    Who's chain yanking?  Where do I sign?
    
    Mark.

    Don't equate the win/loss records of the PAC10 teams as measures of
    strength.  The PAC10 a balanced, powerhouse balanced.  Thus teams like 
    Oregon, Arizona, California, and USC have blemished records.  Look how
    Stanford, Oregon, Arizona have faired against top 5 teams.  Get out of
    your SCC, Big 10, Big 8 mind-sets.
    
    A sports writer for a Houston newspaper said it best:
    
    "All you have to do is look at the scores to see how good the
    Huskies are".  And Don James is no Tom Osborne or Barry Switzer in
    the run-up-the-score department.  
    
    I will stick with my consistent message:  The Huskies will prevail.
    Too bad there isn't a playoff!
    
    
    
    

    JD, I'll sign only on 1 condition, that UMiami be nuked also.  Then,
    there won't be anymore of that ridiculous dancing after every play.
    
    Hawk

    I'll tell ya what.  Regardless of who's really number 1, isn't this
    conference an lot more fun than it was during baseball season?
    
    Thank God for Mom, Apple Pie, Harvey Gantt, and SPORTS!
    
    	--dan'l

    
    > I'll tell ya what.  Regardless of who's really number 1, isn't this
    > conference an lot more fun than it was during baseball season?
    
    That's why I sign off come January and re-enlist when the college
    gridiron season kicks off...
    
    glenn
    

    And, the Apostrophe Police have had lots of opportunities to jump in
    but have kept their mouth shut ....

    When ND bit the bullet against Stanford 2(?) weeks ago, Holtz stated
    that they couldn't possibly be ranked #1 again this season. 
    More smoke or honest insight? Of course that's another topic but
    after last saturday's tumbling from the top ranked teams, 2-3 more
    weeks of these surprises could cloud the picture even more. 
    In any event, it's good to see the Rose Bowl mean more than a parade
    and a 'filler' game between the meatier contests. Hmmmmmmm......
    Then consider an Iowa upset there. It all has me throughly confused. 
    (Wyoming would have been in great shape if they wouldn't have lost 
    saturday too.)
      
    BoB
    

    
    All the talk about Notre Dame being #1 will end Saturday with their
    second loss of the season.  They are going against the best defense 
    they have faced all year and the quickest receivers they have faced
    all year, which adds up to a big loss for ND.  Volunteers by 10!!!!
    
    
    
    Dave
    

 I'll sign too. Heck. I'll evne make a contribution, carry the petition
 door to door. Anything to get rid of Lou Holtz and Digger Phelps....

 mike    

    Give me that pen - I'm with ya.  In fact, I'll propose that only
    state-run schools can field interscholastic programs.  Bye-bye, BC!
    See you later Georgetown!  Sayonara, BYU!  
    
    Or, have all private schools compete in a non-scholarship,
    no-recruiting league - Division B.
    
    NAZZ
    
    PS - As for this weekend, ND will run for over 300 yards against
    Tennessee and win 34-21.

    YOU GUYS AMAZE ME!
    
     All of a sudden Colorado is a SUPER team after having played just ONE
    fantastic quarter against Nebraska. From what I have seen I'd put
    Washington ontop and pick the next four out of a deck of cards to
    round out the top 5. Could be CU,ND, Miami, Ga. Tech, UVA,Houston!
    Any of the six teams mentioned could end up being #1. Depends on who is
    playing consistently at the end. Hey, CU is good and could be in the
    driver's seat if ND makes the Orange Bowl at #1.
    
    
    Prediction; Irish 21,Vols 17 as Irish rise to the level of their comp
    once again.
    
    
     

    Re. .184
    
    OK, Nazz, now that you have compared CU,WU, and ND, opponents records.
    
    How about adding the current records of each team's future opponents.
    
    Does the fact that ND closes with Tennessee,Penn St and USC make
    their opponents records comparable to Washington's( UCLA and Wash St.)
    and CU's ( OK ST and K St.) overall?  I think so    
    
    Let's draw the whole picture, not one that suits your purpose
    
    
    
    
    ML
    

    Has everyone forgotten that it took CU five downs to defeat Missouri? 
    For weeks that was the biggest note topic in this conference.  Now
    a lot of you are saying they are #1.  If that wasn't a legit win four
    weeks ago, why is it one now?
    
    	--dan'l (who has nothing against CU, just against your
    		forgetfulness)

    Dan'l,
    
    Can you imagine the uproar in here, especially from one Buff rooter,
    anti-ND rooter, if the 5 down fiasco had happened to hand Notre
    Dame a victory?  We'd never, ever hear the end of it.  But, that's
    hypocrisy for ya...
    
    JD

    
    1) Colorado 
    2) Washington
    3) Notre Dame
    4) Tennessee
    5) Miami
    6) Georgia Tech
    7) Virginia
    8) Iowa
    9) Florida
   10) Nebraska
    
    						 glen j.

    
    If the 5th down fiasco happened to ND, Lou Holtz would have made
    Bill McCartney (CU's coach) look like the epitome of class...
    And ND would have probably gained in the rankings, instead of
    CU who dropped in the rankings 3 weeks in a row despite winning
    every week...
    
    Peace/ed

    Also peculiar, are the references to the CU 'preseason' tie with
    Tennessee. Of course being 'preseason' game, this should count less
    (or not at all) in the consideration of CU as the top team in the
    nation.  Was the Miami loss to BYU, a preseason game also?
    
    
    
    

I don't know if any of this is addressed at me - I put CU at the top -
but I'm not disputing anything about their record, including ties -
preseason or otherwise - or 5 down TDs. All I'm saying is that right now,
they're playing the best and I'd favor them against any other team, with
the possible exception of having to play at Washington.

TTom

    REP: .202
    
    Nazz - How much money you got to bet ???  NO WAY does ND run for 300
    yards. That's bull and you know it. Come on down Saturday and I'll GIVE
    you a ticket to watch the big orange "D" shut down Rocket and Co...
    Once again Tennessee by at least 14 or worse...
    
    I also agree with TTom. CU may be playing the best ball in the nation.
    Right now.
    
    Go Vols,
    Rich

    This should be a good game. 300yds is alittle steep,but could happen.
    Not saying it will, just that it could happen.  I say............
    
                             UT 31
                             ND 23
                                                      M.J.

    Rich, I sure hope you're right about UT kicking a$$ on Saturday.  The
    Vols have a bunch of people pulling for 'em this week.  We expect to
    see a lot of Tennessee celebrations taking place on those checkerboards!!
    
    Joe

	If Bill McCartney had any class he wouldn't have stated his team
*would've* forfieted the game had Missouri not cheated by somehow tampering
with the field.  He would've stood up and said it was to bad, but a win's
a win.  But instead he hinted that his team would've forfieted (something 
they couldn't do under present NCAA rules) if ol' Mizzou wasn't such a
bunch of cheaters, making it *appear* he was such a moral guy.  His false
piety was enough to make anybody puke.

				/Don

    
    > Also peculiar, are the references to the CU 'preseason' tie with
    > Tennessee. Of course being 'preseason' game, this should count less
    > (or not at all) in the consideration of CU as the top team in the
    > nation.  Was the Miami loss to BYU, a preseason game also?
    
    I didn't refer to the game as a "pre-season" game in the sense that it
    shouldn't count because it was early and they weren't ready.  I 
    explicitly stated that it was an extra game that they didn't have to 
    play, and that a tie in such a game against a team as tough as
    Tennessee works to Colorado's favor, not to their detriment.  I opposed
    this with Washington's non-conference schedule of San Diego State,
    Purdue, and Colorado (loss).
    
    glenn
      

    regarding .215
    
    Lombardy is rolling over in the grave.  A tie isn't a blemish?
    
    "A tie is like kissing your grandma." Lombardy.

    >Can you imagine the uproar in here, especially from one Buff rooter,
    >anti-ND rooter, if the 5 down fiasco had happened to hand Notre
    >Dame a victory?  We'd never, ever hear the end of it.  But, that's
    >hypocrisy for ya...
    
    As one who spoke out strongly against Colorado, I know you don't mean
    me with the accusation of hypocrisy, but let's not forget that a
    similar situation did happen in favor of Notre Dame two years ago, this
    one at home, this one which also led directly to a Notre Dame victory
    over arch-rival Miami.
    
    On the play in question, the official ended up awarding Notre Dame the
    ball on their own one yard line on downs, despite the fact that Miami
    only had three downs.  This particular call, and Notre Dame's later
    refusal to rematch Miami in the bowls (the game everyone wanted to see)
    enabled ND to win the Mythical.
    
    Dan

    Don't remember that one Dan. Are you sure that you are not just
    wishing so hard that ND would cheat that it has become reality
    for you?  
    
    By the way, in '87 I remember Miami refusing a rematch with FSU under
    similar circumstances. Miami already had beaten FSU,was ahead of them
    in the polls and played Penn St. I believe who also was rated ahead
    of FSU. I'd have done the same if I was Miami in '87 or ND in '88.
    
    
    ML
      

    
>    Can you imagine the uproar in here, especially from one Buff rooter,
>    anti-ND rooter, if the 5 down fiasco had happened to hand Notre
>    Dame a victory?  
     
    
>    I'm just *tired* of *seeing* anti-ND *stuff* in *every* **freakin'**
>    note by *a* _particular_ noter who *doesn't* have a *life* after
>    *ND-hatred* *.*
    
    These guys couldn't be talking about me, you think?......Naaaahhhhhhh.
    
    Joe    
 

    
    When are you guy's going to quit whinning about this damn fifth
    down BS. They played what the damn down marker said. The QB would never
    have downed the ball to stop the clock if he had known it was Fourth and
    two. The game is History. I doubt there'a a coach in this country that
    would turn around a give up a win because the Ref's made a mistake. 
    It was a very hard fought game for both teams, but CU came out ahead,
    end of story.
    
    Cadzilla

    RE -1
    
    Thank You.
    
    Joe

    >Don't remember that one Dan. Are you sure that you are not just
    >wishing so hard that ND would cheat that it has become reality
    >for you?  
    
    You really don't remember that decisive play of the Miami-ND game of 2
    autumns ago?  The back, was it Highsmith?, took his body to the one
    yard line, and reached over with his hand and the ball into the end
    zone.  The ball striking the turn caused him to fumble it and ND
    recovered in the end zone.  It was a 3rd down play.  Here's what could
    have been called.
    
    - Highsmith was down on the 1.  4th down, Miami.
    
    - TD Miami as the ball crossed the plane of the endzone in possession.
    
    - ND ball touchback.  Bad call, since it means the ball crossed the
      plane (TD) and the ground caused the fumble (no-no).
    
    To the best of my recollection, the refs resolved this by giving ND the
    ball on the one.  They claimed no fumble but Miami lost it on downs
    when pressed for information after the game.  When pointed out it was
    only third down, the ref in question admitted making a mistake.  He was
    subsequently told from above that he didn't make a mistake and not to
    comment on the issue anymore.
    
    Dan

    
>    To the best of my recollection, the refs resolved this by giving ND the
>    ball on the one.  They claimed no fumble but Miami lost it on downs
>    when pressed for information after the game.  When pointed out it was
>    only third down, the ref in question admitted making a mistake.  He was
>    subsequently told from above that he didn't make a mistake and not to
>    comment on the issue anymore.
    
 I think Dan if my memory serves me correctly that it was a 4th down play
 but that by spotting the ball at the one they ignored the fact that it
 should have been 1st and goal for Miami....

 mike

    There are two reasons I think ND will gain lots of yardage on 
    the ground vs. Tennessee:
    
    1) They won't be able to pass effectively against the Vols.
    
    2) ND will get on top of Tennessee early and play ball control.
    
    NAZZ

    
I think Dan, if my memory serves me correctly, that it was a 4th down
play, but that by spotting the ball at the one, the refs ignored the
fact that it should have been Notre Dame's ball at the 20. (recovery of
an opponent's fumble in the end zone).

Mike JN

 >I think Dan if my memory serves me correctly that it was a 4th down play
 >but that by spotting the ball at the one they ignored the fact that it
 >should have been 1st and goal for Miami....
    
    I think you're right, Mike.  They ignored that Miami got the first on
    the advance of the ball.  Of course, they only came to whatever
    conclusions they did after the game was over.
    
    MikeJN.  The refs couldn't give the ball to Miami.  If they call it a
    fumble, they have to admit their was a touchdown first.
    
    Dan

    Re:225
    IF ND gets on top of Vols early, that would give the Vols the
    opportunity to open the game up. The ND secondary can't keep up with
    the Vol recievers. This should give the Vols the edge. Secondly, the
    Irish will not be able to control the ball all day. Vols defense is the
    best that ND has faced all year. Vols will win by 7 or more.

    	Dan,
    	     I had forgotten the mini controversy. After the smoke cleared
    was the first or second ND offensive play of the subsequent series
    an interception by Miami? I remembered the fumble(which by the way I
    had mentioned earlier in Note 59 that I thought it was a bad call
    against Miami) but didn't recall the down controversy.
    
    
    ML
    

    

    The running back was Cleveland Gary not Alonso Highsmith. It should
    have been ruled a TD. Jimmy Johnson had the cubes to go for the 2
    point conversion and for the win, late in the game, but the attempt
    failed. He should have gone for the tie and won back-to-back national
    titles (87 & 88). Miami under coach Erickson won last year. Miami is
    one call from winning the National title 3 years in a row.

Chuck

    Chuck,
    Do you mean the call to go for two at the end of the game or the
    non-call on the fumble.
    
    Had Miami gone for the tie, I believe it would have hurt them in the
    polls. As far as the fumble goes,Yea, Miami should have been awarded
    the TD. But, remember, ND threw an interception, right after the
    "fumble" and Miami scored in two plays anyway,so six or half-dozen
    Miami got the TD they deserved. And still lost, which is the
    bottom line.
    
    
    
    
    
    ML
      

    
    The running back *was* Cleveland Gary.  I thought the fumble call was
    inconclusive myself (both from the standpoint of Gary being down and/or
    being in the end zone), and Jimmy Johnson's claim that one referee said 
    they had turned the ball over on downs only served to confuse things 
    later (the NCAA and their officials said nothing, per policy).  I
    honesly don't believe the officials did turn the ball over on downs,
    even if one official did mistakenly say that.  Additionally, there were 
    at least two other controversial fumble calls in that game that went 
    Miami's way, too, if you really want to turn a classic game into an 
    officiating pissing contest.
    
    What Dan really doesn't want to acknowledge is that even if it were a
    bad call occurring during the course of an intense back-and-forth game, 
    the game didn't hinge on the call.  As mentioned, Miami got the ball 
    back right away, maintaining field position, and eventually did score 
    the touchdown they needed with less than a minute to play, making the 
    two-point conversion the almost-forgotten key to the game.  At *worst* 
    the call only knocked a couple of minutes off the clock.  The whole 
    affair ranks right up there with Irving Fryar supposedly "blowing" the 
    national championship by dropping a TD pass in the 1984 Orange Bowl, 
    when in reality Nebraska drove and scored anyway and lost on the failed 
    conversion.  In the final analysis, the fumble call did not cost Miami 
    the game.
    
    Maintain your dignity, Dan.  Don't cast your lot with whiners like
    Johnson *or* Holtz.  It was a great game that was only tainted by the
    crying that came from Jimmy Johnson, which I believe only occurred in 
    the first place because he was politicking for a rematch he wasn't
    going to get.  I have fairly strong feelings that the Irish wheedled
    their way into national championships in 1966 and 1977, but not 1988. 
    
    glenn
         
                                             

    ML,

    I Mean JJ should have gone for the 1pt conversion not the 2pt conversion.
    Before the attempted conversion I was glad he was going for the 2 pts.
    Isn't hind sight wonderful.
 
    Miami was #1 going into that game a tie wouldn't have dropped them
    below ND, because the game was in South Bend. Maybe West Virginia
    would have jumped to #1, but Miami would have gotten a shot at them
    in the bowl game not ND. Besides the way the polls favor Miami and ND
    we might of had a rematch between Miami and ND on New Years Day that
    year.

    Fumble/non-fumbles/bad calls are all part of the game, I don't bother
    to dicuss them.
      
Chuck      

    
    Notre Dame will win it for Tommy Clancy. The Wild Colonial Boy always
    loved ND. 

    >           -< This officiating nonsense is beneath you, Dan >-
    
    Oh, c'mon.  Let me make that decision.  It clearly cost Miami the
    single most important game of the year, and then was covered up in
    bixzarre fashion.
    
    >What Dan really doesn't want to acknowledge is that even if it were a
    >bad call occurring during the course of an intense back-and-forth game, 
    >the game didn't hinge on the call.  As mentioned, Miami got the ball 
    >back right away, maintaining field position, and eventually did score 
    >the touchdown they needed with less than a minute to play, making the 
    >two-point conversion the almost-forgotten key to the game. 
    
    This is illogical.  A turnover shortly followed, we can agree on that,
    and a TD followed the turnover.  Had Miami scored the touchdown,
    instead of the refs handing the ball (and the game) over to Notre Dame,
    the possibility of the same ND turnover and TD is still there, isn't
    it?  You're saying Miami should be content, because they scored again
    anyway.  What you should be saying is that they may have scored twice
    with any call, but the absolute absurd one offered, and won the game.
    
    >I have fairly strong feelings that the Irish wheedled
    >their way into national championships in 1966 and 1977, but not 1988. 
    
    I hope youdon't feel that it's undignified, but I think that Miami
    would have pounded Notre Dame on any field other than South Bend in
    1988, and Holtz knew it too, which is exactly why ND ducked a chance at
    the rematch and went against an over-matched and overrated West
    Virginia.
    
    Dan

    By the way, Glenn, did you see ESPN's Campus Report with Chris Fowler
    the other day?  He said the Notre Dame bowl committed is seriously
    looking at two other bowls besides the Orange, the SUgar and Cotton and
    prospective opponents Mississippi and Texas.  The question he thinks
    they're considering is can they market this so the public will accept
    them "ducking" (his word) Colorado.
    
    Dan

    ND 34, Tennessee 29 - ND keeps top spot(in AP/UPI polls at least)
    UCLA 25, Washington 22 - Huskies can say goodbye to the mythical
    CU 41, Okla. St. 22 - Buffs gear for possible showdown with ND
    Ohio St. 27, Iowa 26 - Rose Bowl trip on hold for Hawkeyes
    Georgia Tech 6, Virginia Tech 3 - Ramblin Wreck survives 
    
    
    						 glen j.

Is this Dan guy for real!!


The past two years ND has played the highest possible rated team.  
Both teams were undefeated.  In ND didn't play WV in 88 and both
teams went undefeated, you would say ND ducked VW.  

As far as this year is concerned, why shouldn't ND check out all
possiblities.  There was (is) a good change they might lose before
the bowls and they might want alternatives to the ORANGE (MIAMI was
to replace ND is ND lost to Tennessee).

If Miami has gotten "the fumble" call ND wouldn't have been on the 1
yard line and wouldn't have been so trapped in.

How the top ten - plus or minus - faired (all scores in SCOREBOARD):

1. Washington - lost to UCLA, played poorly at home.
2. Colorado - beat Oklahoma St, but did not cover, for what's that worth.
3. Notre Dame - beat Tennessee at Tennessee.
4. Miami - bye
5. Iowa - lost to Ohio St at home, folded down the stretch, big time.
6. Florida - beat Georgia real bad in Jacksonville.
7. Tennessee - failed to comeback all the way at home against ND.
8. Georgia Tech - squeezed by Va Tech, no TDs.
9. Houston - got beat up in Austin by Texas.
10. Virginia - politely did away with No Carolina, did not cover.
Others:

Florida St - scored 70 against happless Cincinnati
BYU - won big at Wyoming (first WAS loss at home).
Nebraska - drubbed Kansas on the road.
Michigan - held on to beat Illinois in Ann Arbor.
Texas - very impressive against a_overhyped Houston.
Auburn - lost in last minute to Southern Miss.

TTom

    To Nazz - Boy did you know what you were talking about. ND's offensive
    line played very well, and those big backs ran down our throats. We did
    miss a bunch of tackles. It was a great game... We should have won the
    football game.
    
    Sorry to all the CU fans. Tried to help you all out. I was hoping we
    would have made the two point conversion, that way after we recover the
    kick we don't have far to get into field goal range and Johnny gets his
    tie. 
    
    Crow is not bad with a lot of Jack to wash it down...
    
    Let's go beat Ole Miss
    Rich :-(

    A tough loss for UT, a good game though from what I saw,alot of action
    and never got boring. Again, I think Majors got "TOO" conservative when
    UT was up by 3pts and went away from his pass. At the end I thought
    Kelly should have put that ball in front of his reciever(Pickens?), led
    him deep in the end zone to where if Pickens couldn't get it then
    nobody could. But, thats easy to say if your sitting on the couch and
    watching the tube.
    
    It made my weekend to see Houston and Washington get beat. Houston
    shouldn't even be in the top 25.
    
    And Hell, My GameCocks even managed to win one against S.Illni :-)
    
                                                        M.J.

    
    Major's too conservative?  They threw the ball 60 times!! 
    Good game, Kelly had a field day with the ND secondary but
    it wasn't enough and the Irish prevailed. Notre Dame's running 
    game was the key to this win. And I don't care how over-rated 
    some of you think Ismail is the kid can just fly! Rickey Watters
    had a big day as did Pickens, this Pickens looks like he'd be 
    a good pick. (no pun intended)
    
    Steve

    
    > By the way, Glenn, did you see ESPN's Campus Report with Chris Fowler
    > the other day?  He said the Notre Dame bowl committed is seriously
    > looking at two other bowls besides the Orange, the SUgar and Cotton and
    > prospective opponents Mississippi and Texas.  The question he thinks
    > they're considering is can they market this so the public will accept
    > them "ducking" (his word) Colorado.
    
    Looks like the gig is up for you, Dan.  ND is going Orange, rumors or
    no.  They will make the right bowl decision for the third year in a
    row.  (And don't be giving me that re-match logic.  Under the
    system that rewards head-to-head performance the ND-Miami comparison 
    had already been decided, while an undefeated, untied West Virginia
    would have left questions, and at least as much criticism as ND
    received for "ducking" Miami.  The fact that it was an even year,
    meaning ND had home-field advantage is just too bad.  More than any
    other team of the 80's, Miami benefited from their home field, given
    the Orange Bowl set-up.  That's just the way it goes.)
    
    If you didn't see the game, or even if you don't like ND, their effort
    Saturday against Tennessee was heroic.  Simply heroic.  (See: Zorich
    in the dictionary under "courage".)  This is a very flawed team that 
    just keeps on winning, even under hostile conditions, while all these
    supposedly superior teams like Washington come up against a little
    adversity and roll over and die.  If you can't appreciate what ND did
    Saturday, you can't appreciate college football.
    
    glenn
    

    > To the best of my recollection, the refs resolved this by giving ND the
    > ball on the one.  They claimed no fumble but Miami lost it on downs
    > when pressed for information after the game.  When pointed out it was
    > only third down, the ref in question admitted making a mistake.  He was
    > subsequently told from above that he didn't make a mistake and not to
    > comment on the issue anymore.
    
    And, for the record, please substantiate this wholly re-created version
    of events.  After the first sentence, it's all news to me.
    
    glenn
    

    
    You guy's are worse than Clemson fans.
    
    
    
    
    Steve

    Amazing interception to save the game for ND.  I thought for sure that
    Tennessee would pull it out.  I also thought Washington would pull it
    out, but UCLA hung tough.
    
    Say what you want against Lou Holtz, but the man has filberts and is
    not afraid to shuffle his players around to new positions in the middle
    of the season.
    
    Great call, Mike JN, on the Texas-Houston game.  Houston finally got
    the spanking they deserved.
    
    Penn State wins it's 7th in a row.  Next week- Notre Dame.
    
    Hawk

    
    Tennessee worked that on-sides kick to perfection! They had the right
    man (pickens) on the end and the kicker hit he ball perfectly, nice
    play.
    
    
    
    Steve

I was at the Husky game this saturday. It was my first div 1 game and it is
quite an experience to be surrounded by 71,000 fans wearing purple..

to put it clean and simply the Huskies were outcoached this weekend. UCLA
came out with the shotgun and ran it almost the entire game. The defensive
coordinator for Washington should have his head examined for failing to make
any adjustments to stop UCLA. The Bruins must have ran the same play 20 times.
It's almost a variation of the R & S. 3 wide receivers and two backs. One of
the backs delays and blocks before going out and the other goes across the 
middle. Two receivers either runs curls or deep routes...The TE goes down the 
middle...and 1 guy was not covered almost everytime they ran the play.

As soon as the UCLA QB (maddix who looked very good) saw the WA was in zone
coverage he audibled and UCLA ran this play. The only time the huskies stopped 
it was when they went to man coverage....

On offense The huskies were gaining around 6-7 yards a pop running right
up the gut of the UCLA defense..but did they stick with it ? Noooooo...
They tried several sweeps which were squashed and in the second half the average
offensive series went 1st down..attempt 30 yard bomb...2nd down attempt 20
yard bomb...3rd down try some way to pick up a 1st down...This was all done with 
a QB that showed in the 1st half that he couldn't pass and receivers that showed
that they couldn't hang onto the ball....The wind was gusting 30 mph all over
the place and the field was wet. The only consistant drives they had all game
were ones in which they pounded the ball up the middle on the ground....

the players deserved better than the coaching they received this week....

and once again the Rose bowl means nothing....I said last week that the 
quotes were the like of " we are happy going to the Rose bowl..we aren't 
even thinking about a nat championship" it showed this saturday.....

Too bad.......


Metz

    GLenn,
    
    My sentiments exactly.  The ND - Tennesse game was what college
    ball is all about.   The second half was explosive.  I was almost
    pulling for Tennessee to pull it out, because it would have been
    thebest comeback I'd seen in a long,long time.  Both coaches went
    for it.  Holtz going on 4th down, Majors having Kelly air it out
    all day long.  Stonebreaker really hunkered downin the 4th, and
    teh VOls goal line defense was one of the best I've seen.  Simply
    *HUGE*.  And the Rocket did perform when needed.  After the big
    Fmble at the goal line, he returns the punt to about the 10,
    guarenteeing ND a chance for a FG at least (which they got).  Then
    on the next punt, the Vol punter was so concerned about him, that
    he shanks about an 11 yard punt, setting up the go ahead TD.  And
    then of course, the run that was the game-winner.   ND had good
    field position all day because of the Vols fear of kicking to him.
     They kicked short on the kick offs, and ND consistently had good
    position (in the second half this was plainly evident).
    
    Classic matchup.  Good game.   
    
    
    RE Steve D. and Denny - Pickens looked great.  That onside kick
    was amazing.  
    
    re Metz;
    
    Boy did it get quient in Seattle after the game....
    
    
    JD

    Despite the fact that we will probably have #1 vs. #2 in the Orange
    Bowl, I am still strongly in favor a playoff.  One of the biggest
    problems with the current system is that there are top teams that
    deserve to be in a playoff but have no chance at winning the mythical,
    such as Texas, Virginia, FSU, Nebraska, Michigan, Washington, etc. (Not
    to mention Florida, which I assume wouldn't be allowed in a playoff
    because of their probation.)  
    
    Right now the frontrunners are obviously ND and CU, but there is a slim
    hope for Miami and maybe Ga Tech if ND were to lose one of their last 2
    but beat CU in the Orange.  Even then, ND would have the argument that
    they beat the #1 team in a bowl, therefore rising them high in the
    final polls.  But right now I don't see ND losing to Penn St or USC
    because after being down for the count, the Irish have come back the
    last 4 weeks with big wins over Miami & Tennessee and seem to have the
    momentum again.  Of course maybe justice will prevail and ND will
    finally lose one of those close ones.
    
    Joe

    College Football- who's number one?
    
    Last I heard Eastern Kentucky University...
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach (EKU Class of '86)
    
    P.S. Does anyone have scores from the 2A division?

    The Heisman appears to be headed down to the wire, although if you
    listen to the media enough you will get the feeling that Ismail is the
    favorite at this point.
    
    Here's how the top 4 did this week:
    Ismail-Pretty much held in check, but had the big game-winning TD
    Bieniemy-Had a good but not great day against Okie St.  Rushed for 148
             yards and still leads the nation in rushing.
    Shawn Moore-Had another good day and still leads the nation in passing
    Detmer-Passed for over 400 yards again.
    
    I still can't believe that Bieniemy isn't the favorite right now with
    such impressive stats on the nation's 2nd ranked team, but then again
    he really didn't start to become noticed until mid-season, and it was
    CU's first 4 games which were on national TV.  And of course he didn't
    play against the Vols, and won't be on national TV this week in his
    last game before the votes are counted.  Therefore, I say he's out of
    the running.  Ismail definitely has the inside track, especially since
    his next 2 games are on national TV and against top-20 teams.
    
    Gee, I used the term 'national TV' quite a bit when discussing the
    Heisman trophy.  Must just be a coincidence.
    
    Joe

    
    > P.S. Does anyone have scores from the 2A division?
    
    EKU just held on against #18 Marshall, 15-12.
    
    glenn

    Time to go to the crow cafe, Rich Jones!
    
    I hate to pat myself on the back (yeah, right!), but I did predict
    Notre Dame would run through Tennessee for over 300 years, and they
    did - 316 to be exact.  And if Tennessee didn't score that last 
    minute touchdown, I would have predicted the score exactly right.
    
    Notre Dame, amazingly enough, always seems to do just enough to win.
    Tennessee had 100 yards more total offense, but one vital interception
    and the Irish escape once again.  I can't call it luck anymore - it
    happens too often to be luck.
    
    My prediction for this week:  Penn State's offense does next to
    nothing, and its defense collapses late.  20-7 Notre Dame.
    
    NAZZ

    Rich, I apologize for missing your earlier note.  Saw that you
    already chowed down with your favorite beverage!
    
    One tip I had on the Tennessee rush defense was that I listened
    to WFAN from New York a week ago Saturday, and they had on the
    Temple play-by-play guy after the Tenn-Temple game.  He said that
    Temple was running at will on Tennessee until their QB went out
    with an injury early in the 3rd quarter, then Tennessee took over
    control of the game.
    
    FWIW, I was pulling for Tennessee, but Notre Dame has some type
    of karma in their corner this season.  
    
    NAZZ

    � but I did predict Notre Dame would run through Tennessee for over 300
    � years, and they did - 316 to be exact.  
      ^^^^^
    Gawd, I thought that game seemed to go on forever ...
    
    Bob Hunt

Penn State has a pretty smart coach at the helm. if anybody can devise a game
plan to win a specific game it's Paterno. I predict that this one will go down
to the wire and the Lions will win by 2.

Just remember it's not who you lose to it's when you lose....


Metz

    Paterno had better come up with a better strategy to defense the run
    than last year, or it'll be a long afternoon again.  Penn State's 
    offense has yet to get completely untracked, with QB Tony Sacca showing 
    little or no improvement from one week to the next (I think his best 
    game was against USC early), so PSU can't give up more than maybe 20 
    points if they want to have any shot at all to win. 
    
    Penn State is my home team, and a win would go long way towards a 
    possible top 10 finish, but I just don't see it.  ND 31, Penn State 17.
    
    glenn
    

    Nazz, What do you see in our future Saturday in Memphis against Ole
    Miss. Am I wasting a trip???  Will we cover the points ??? My wife has
    TOLD me to check with you before placing any bets. Also, how many yards
    will the Rebs rush for this weekend. Speak great swami if only a few
    words of wisdom..
    
    This Vol needs help...
    Rich

    
    Is it true what I hear that U of Tennessee isn't real well liked in
    Memphis and that this game is actually more of a home game for Ole Miss
    than the Vols?  If so, could make a difference in the outcome (but I
    doubt it)...
    
    glenn
    

    
    
    .260�    Is it true what I hear that U of Tennessee isn't real well liked in
    
    
    When you go west in the state you will find less and less UT
    supporters.  Memphis State and Vanderbilt has a larger following west
    of Nashvile.  Mississippi will have fewer hours to travel than
    Tennessee to get to Memphis, but I suspect the Volunteers will have
    just as many fans there as Ole Miss.  Knoxville to Memphis is about an 
    8 hour drive.  I hope Tennessee can stop the Mississippi ground game or
    the Vols could be in for a high scoring game.  I'll still take the Vols
    by 7.
    
    
    Mississippi chose to play in memphis.  The game was going to be played
    at Mississippi,  but the Rebels thought they could get a bigger crowd
    in the Liberty Bowl.
    
    Dave
    
    

    Unfortunately Rich, I cain't help you out, since I don't know
    diddley about Mississippi.  Tennessee I suspect should overpower
    them offensively, though.  If I were a betting man, I'd take the
    over!  
    
    Thanks for your confidence in my prognostications, but even a 
    blind squirrel finds an occasional acorn.  My elimination in the
    fifth week of the King of the Hill contest is more my speed.
    
    NAZZ

    It was told on Sports Center tonight that Mississippi was holding some
    sort of Pep-Rally and they were gonna sell slugs at t.v.'s with a
    hammer that had ESPN on it, something about ESPN said UT would win this
    match up and Miss. didn't take it too kindly. Oh well!!! I say it
    should be a good game with UT winning by atleast 11pts. 
    
                                                           M.J.

    CU 64, K. State 3 - reserves score 24 points in 2nd half, will be #1
    Penn State 24, ND 21 - the Rocket blew a gasket, ND never recovered
    USC 45, UCLA 42 - wild & wacky game from longtime Pac-10 rivals
    Maryland 35, Virginia 30 - Moore injured, Cavs will still get New
                               Year's Day bowl appearance.
    
    						 glen j.

    General question -- has any team with two losses ever won the national
    championship?
    
    
    py

    Paul,  
    
    NO.
    
    Regarding today's poll (in USA Today) - how can Miami be #2?  They
    lost to BYU and Notre Dame, both of whom are ranked lower.  Last
    year, many noters used the arguement that Miami beat ND, therefore
    ND could never be ranked higher.  Seems that the pollsters are leaning
    towards handing Miami the champeenship.  
    
    Didn't watch any games this weekend, but was glad for Paterno -
    he's got the Lions playing good ball right now (8 straight wins)
    and I think they shold be in the top ten.  I see CU romped on some
    hapless requirement, but Houston takes the cake for classless piling
    on.   They really needed to keep Klingler in the game throwing against
    Eastern Washington - I'm not impressed by his 11 Td's...
    
    I think CU should be #1, with Georgia Tech #2, BYU #3, Texas #4,
    ND #5, Miami #6...
    
    JD

Re: .266 -- RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JO "School dat rookie"

>    I think CU should be #1, with Georgia Tech #2, BYU #3, Texas #4,
>    ND #5, Miami #6...

And if ND beats CU in their upcoming matchup?

-Andy (waiting to see who's gonna say GA Tech should be #1)

    Andy,
    
    No way shojuld ND or Miami be #1.  If ND beats CU, and Ga. Tech
    wins, then Ga Tech shold be #1.
    
    Simple as that.
    
    JD

    Nice, nice win for Penn St. and Joe Paterno.  And, if I'm not mistaken,
    ND had a 14-0 lead!
    
    Although I'm very happy about PS's big win, I'm also kind of
    disappointed that ND won't be pissing people off this year now.....
    :-)
    
    Hawk

    
    Yes, in the absence of a playoff if forced to choose between the lesser 
    of evils, I'd take Georgia Tech if they polish off Georgia (not a given) 
    and Nebraska, assuming an ND victory over Colorado.  Miami has done 
    little more than get their losses out of the way early and then coast 
    home against some light competition.  They will beat Texas, but if ND 
    beats Colorado I don't see where Miami has any more claim to the national 
    title than do the Irish (which is to say not much claim at all).
    
    The only teams I can see that deserve a shot at the title are (in
    decreasing order of preference assuming they remain unbeaten the rest 
    of the way) Colorado, Texas, and Georgia Tech.  But in reality if 
    Colorado doesn't come through the title probably goes to the Cotton Bowl 
    winner (Miami-Texas) or even BYU (Holiday joke with Texas A&M) if 
    Nebraska beats Tech, either of which would be a little hard to take.
    
    This year's post-season is easily the biggest mess since 1984, when
    only two teams came out of the bowls with less than two losses-- BYU
    and Washington.  (In 1960, Minnesota did win the title with two
    losses, but only because the final polls were taken before the bowls in
    those days.)  A post-bowl, four-team playoff (which is the format I've
    favored, as not to compromise the bowls entirely) looks like it would
    be suitable, and very interesting, this year.
    
    glenn
      

    
    While CU probably deserves to be #1 due to strength of schedule,
    The Ramblin' Wrecks definitely deserve consideration for their
    undefeated status. If Tech remains undefeated they should be #1.
    Even though they didn't play as tough a schedule as some others
    it wasn't that easy either. A case could even be made that Tech's
    schedule was tougher than Miami's.
    
    

    It looks like last year all over again.  If Colo beats ND, they are #1. 
    However, if ND beats Colo and the Canes beat Texas, the Canes are #1
    AGAIN.  For once I would like the #1 team in the land to win and dont let
    any other team slip through the back door.  Unlike last year when the
    Colo/ND and Ala/Mia where being played at the same time, the Cotton
    Bowl will be final before the kickoff of the Orange Bowl.  Looking
    forward to a very interesting New Years day.
    
    Greg
    
    

    1. Colorado (45)	10-1-1
    2. Miami (3)	7-2-0
    3. GA Tech (8)	9-0-1
    4. BYU (2)		9-1-0
    5. Florida (1)	9-1-0
    6. Texas (1)	8-1-0
    7. Notre Dame	8-2-0
    8. FSU		8-2-0
    9. Washington	9-2-0
    10. Nebraska	9-1-0
    11. Penn St.	8-2-0
    12. Houston		9-1-0
    13. Iowa		8-2-0
    14. Tennessee	6-2-2
    15. Michican	7-3-0
    16. Clemson		9-2-0
    17. Virginia	8-2-0
    18. USC		8-2-1
    19. Ohio St.	7-2-1
    20. Louiville	9-1-1
    21. Mississippi	8-2-0
    22. Illinois	7-3-0
    23. Auburn		7-2-1
    24. Michigan St.	6-3-1
    25. Southern Miss.	8-3-0
    
    Others receiving votes: Texas A&M, Oklahoma, San Jose St., Oregon,
    California, Colorado St., Alabama, Baylor, Wyoming , Arizona, Syracuse,
    Central Michigan, Loiusiana Tech, Maryland, North Carolina
    

    Just to sum up some of the frustration that we've been lamenting
    about:
    
    - Colorado has a loss, a tie, and a disputed victory and is #1
    - Twice beaten Miami is #2, two spots ahead of BYU, which has only one
      loss and which beat the Hurricanes early in the season
    - Georgia Tech is #3 even though it is the only major unbeaten team 
      in the country
    - Penn State, which just beat top-ranked Notre Dame and has the same
      record as the Irish, is ranked four places below Lou Holtz's team
    - Clemson is ranked ahead of Virginia but the Cavs beat them in the
      first ACC matchup of the season
    
    This settles it.  It's time for a playoff system!
    
    	--dan'l

    	I have absolutely no problem with Colorado being ranked #1.
    Their one loss was definitely a_excellent loss and their tie was
    a_excellent tie.  Matter of fact since both Tennessee and Colorado
    didn't want to win the game, and the objective was a_excellent tie,
    and since that objective was met this almost qualifies it as
    a_thigh_shuddering_excellent tie!
    
    				/Don

�    a_thigh_shuddering_excellent tie!

Yes, but /Don, since a tie is like kissing your sister, aren't
we talking a little incestuously here?

    Also, dan'l, since I sense objectivity in your last reply, you must
    also consider that Miami is ranked 6(?) places higher than ND, even
    though ND beat them convincingly PLUS, they have 1 more in the win
    column......
    
    HTH.
    
    Hawk

    
    
    	Actually, all this No. 1 stuff is great if you are for a playoff
    system.  One of the best things to happen was that ND lost to Penn
    St. and now has everyone scratching their heads wondering how do
    we figure out who is No. 1.  
    
    	This year is a joke as far as the bowls and the rankings go.
    Another year like this one (with many top teams having 2 or more
    losses), and the NCAA will have to adopt some sort of playoff system
    to determine a *real* national champ.  That is if they (NCAA) want
    to retain any kind of integrity.
    
    								bill..g.
    

    Hawk, good point.  I copied most of my reply from an AP story.  Even
    they neglected to say ND beat Miami.
    
    	--dan'l

    >Also, dan'l, since I sense objectivity in your last reply, you must
    >also consider that Miami is ranked 6(?) places higher than ND, even
    >though ND beat them convincingly PLUS, they have 1 more in the win
    >column......
    
    Hawk, you need deprogramming...
    
    I think 72 shots of beer, one every minute ought to do it.
    
    Dan

    The Orange Bowl totally screwed up by extending the invitation to
    ND so early when ND still had to play Penn State & USC. Because of
    their greed and impatientce there will be no "championship game" for
    #1.
    
    This stupid poll thing only works when there is an obvious single
    dominant team in a given year such as Nebraska of '83, Miami some
    years etc... If there is no such team in a given year then this thing
    is a travesty !!! A total joke !!!
    
    Nebraska Marty
    
    P.S. Dont consider GT an automatic VS the Huskers. NU will show up
         ready to play !!!

    re: my own -1
    
    What I mean by "Championship game" is #1 vs #2 head to head.

 >> The Orange Bowl totally screwed up by extending the invitation to
 >> ND so early when ND still had to play Penn State & USC. Because of
 >> their greed and impatientce there will be no "championship game" for
 >>  #1.

The Orange Greed is still very much intact. By scheduling the Home team 
in the Orange bowl (Miami) the area loses big $$$. Miami residents and UM 
students allready have a place to stay. Where as ND-CU matchup the students
and supporters come from South Bend and Colorado. This means Big Business for 
the area Hotels, and travel industry. 

ALL BOWLS are for the $$$$$$ vs the National Championship.  

Jeff

    
    This game could determine the national champion. Colorado has
    every chance of winning the mythical thised year. ND does not
    however. Yep just think of all those Coloradians spending all 
    those hard earned nuggets in beautiful Miami! Not to mention 
    the "evil ones" who will also spend multitudes of cash! Should be
    a good game!
    
    
    Steve                                                    

    So what's the big deal with determining a national champion?

    > 72 shots of beer, one every minute.....
    
    Dan, you must've seen that Happy Days episode where Richie goes to a
    bachelor party with a bunch of Marine Corps dudes........
    
    I don't think I can handle shots of beer.  After the 2nd shot, I'd be
    downing the rest of the can out of frustration!
    
    Hawk

    	Hey Dan, go quaff another six pack of that sissy yuppie beer,
    then we'll talk "excellent losses".
    
    				/Don

    >Dan, you must've seen that Happy Days episode where Richie goes to a
    >bachelor party with a bunch of Marine Corps dudes........
    
    Yowza! Yowza! Yowza!  Girls!  Girls! Girls!  Six!  Count 'em. Six!
    
    Dan

    >	Hey Dan, go quaff another six pack of that sissy yuppie beer,
    >then we'll talk "excellent losses".
    
    Yes, you're right.  The world *should* know that you finally paid off
    that bet.  I fully enjoyed that 6-pack of Dos Equis, and the best part
    is that Jim came to visit me and got your six of Sammies.  So there we
    are watching football, drinking great beer, and knowing that you bought
    it for us.
    
    Dan

    	You and old "pink tank top" eh.  Boy there's a pair that could
    beat three of a kind.  AND, if you were watching that sorry S Jests
    team, you certainly weren't watching what passes for football!
    
    				/Don

    The AP pollsters swapped Georgia Tech for Miami at #2 in this week's
    poll, apparently giving Tech the inside track at the national
    championship if they continue to win and Notre Dame beats Colorado.
    Just like when they swapped Miami for Michigan last year when both
    teams were inactive, I guess a lot the voters thought hard about 
    where they had placed Tech and moved them up (Georgia Tech had eight
    first-place votes to Miami's three last week, but were ranked much
    lower on a substantial number of ballots).  The voters also swapped
    Texas for Florida at #5, which made a lot of sense. 
    
    Anyone know if the UPI coaches' poll left Miami at #2 (it's listed in
    USA Today)?
    
    glenn
    

    Add BYU to the list of the unwashed (again)...  If that drubbing to
    Hawaii, complete with a mediocre performance by Detmer, had happened 
    two weeks ago, Ismail would probably be holding the Heisman right now. 
    
    For those who saw the Miami-San Diego State game, do you agree that
    this team has no business making even a long-shot claim to the national
    championship?  Once again, a very lackluster effort on the road.  I
    don't think Miami was even able to make a first down on their last 3-4
    possessions, and their defense was not up to stopping SDS's run or
    pass in the same stretch.  On SDS's last four possesions, they drove 
    the ball deep all four times, resulting in three missed field goals 
    and finally a touchdown.  For wont of a kicker or coach (attempting a 
    55-yard field goal on 4th and 6 while 10 points down with less than a
    half-quarter left?  C'mon, coach...)
    
    As I expected, Florida State did a number on Florida in their grudge
    match in Tallahassee.  I'm convinced that for big in-state and
    conference rivalry games the home field advantage counts for more than 
    the usual 3-point edge assumed by bettors.
    
    Texas did a decent job in coming from 14 points down early to hold off
    A&M in another in-state game, and Georgia Tech didn't have as much
    trouble with Georgia as I expected.  Both teams did nothing to damage
    their title hopes.  I would hope that Texas finally moves in front of
    Miami this week, to where they rightfully belong.  With their
    reasonably tough schedule and only the one loss, I'm not sure why it 
    has taken this long for Texas to receive the respect they've earned.
    
    With the season complete, I only see Colorado, Texas, and Georgia Tech
    with legitimate claims to the throne.  It's too bad that Tech isn't
    matched up with one of the other two.  If they all lose?  Either Notre
    Dame or the Penn State-Florida State winner, depending on how those
    games shake out...
    
    glenn
       

    Miami will drop.  I'd lay money on it.  Texas will take over the number
    two spot.
    
    As far as I'm concerned, Miami is a disgrace to college football.  I
    can never remember another team being involved in so many fights. 
    Someone needs to straighten that program out.  
    
    What I want to know is who the hey is voting for Colorado?  I've
    watched four or five sports shows recently and everyone who addresses
    the "Number 1" issue says they did not vote for CU because of their
    disputed victory.
    
    Penn State should at least be in the top 5.  Maybe with BYU and Florida
    losing, that will happen.  
    
    	--dan'l

    
    > Miami will drop.  I'd lay money on it.  Texas will take over the number
    > two spot.
    
    Georgia Tech was at #2 in the AP last week...
    
    glenn
    

    
    What were the results of the BYU-Hawaii game?  
    
    Bob V.
    

>><<< Note 388.295 by MILPND::VLASAK "I went to a fight and a Miami U game broke out!" >>>
>>                                -< BYU_Hawaii? >-

    
>>    What were the results of the BYU-Hawaii game?  
    

	Hawaii  - 59
	BYU     - 28

    Glenn,  
    
    Agree with ya.  Miami is not deserving.   Hey if Tech goes 11-0-1
    they deserve the champeenship (providing ND beats the Buffs).  I
    won't in the States for the bowl games, but I'll go on record as
    saying that if ND beats the Buffs, they don't deserve the #1 (same
    with Miami if they win...) - despite the whining Lou will do.
    
    Dan'l
    
    Remember, Miami is just misunderstood.  Fighting and stuff like
    that isn't bad - overhype is (like in ND).  You should know that
    by now ;-)
    
    Also, agree Penn State should be higher...
    
    JD

    Detmer's stats against Hawaii were 3TD's and 4 int's.  However, he did
    set the all-time NCAA passing record for yards.  On the
    highlights, they showed a Hawaii player posing like the Heisman trophy
    after he scored a TD.  I thought that was pretty funny.
    
    Joe
                                                    

    
    > Detmer's stats against Hawaii were 3TD's and 4 int's.  However, he did
    > set the all-time NCAA passing record for yards.  On the
    > highlights, they showed a Hawaii player posing like the Heisman trophy
    > after he scored a TD.  I thought that was pretty funny.
    
    That was great!  ESPN made it sound like another example of poor
    sportsmanship that might have future repercussions, but compared to
    your average end zone dance I thought the pose was rather clever.
    
    David Klinger made a valiant try at the season passing yardage record
    by throwing for a single-game record 720+ yards in Tokyo against
    Arizona State (final: 62-45), but fell short as Detmer played in 12
    games to Klingler's 11.  Not surprisingly, the single-game record 
    setting pass by Klingler was a 95-yard TD with 1:30 to play and 
    Houston up, 55-45. 
    
    glenn
     

    I'm going on-line to say that Tech will most likely beat Nebraska.
    
    Now, if BYU could get #1 after beating a 6-5 Michigan IN A NON-New
    Years day bowl because they were the only undefeated team left, when
    why would Tech not deserve #1 considering the records of the other
    teams. Including Colorado who has 1 loss, 1 tie, and 1 asterics.
    
    I'm not puting down CU or any other team. I'm just saying there is
    precedent for an undefeated team with a weak schedule winning the
    mythical national championship.
    
    Go BIG RED
    
    Nebraska Marty

    	It would be a real shame to see a sissy team (read Georgia Tech)
    from a sissy conference (read ACC) beat a Patriot like patsy (read
    Nebraska) and win the National Title.  It would be enough to make
    me stop watching college football.  8^(
    
    				/Don

    re .300
    
    Marty,
    
    Two wrong do not a right make!
    
    BYU should not have gotten when they did and GT will have to win
    big and have other pieces fall into place to make it.
    
    Bob V.
    

    re: -1
    
    Bob, I agree, I'm just saying that the precident is there. Actually,
    if you look at the situation this year, no one has a solid argument
    for number 1.
    
    Nebraska Marty

    
    In glancing at the paper tonight I noticed that some teams play more or
    less equal number of home and away games, while others build up a good 
    record by staying home.  Check out the teams home and away records.
    
    Home and Away records as of 11/26: (From The National top 16)
    
                 Home   Away
       Colorado  5-0    5-1-1 
       BYU       6-0    4-1
       Miami     7-0    1-2  
       Texas     4-1    5-0
       Florida   7-0    2-1
       GT        6-0    3-0-1
       ND        4-2    5-0
       Wash      5-1    4-1
       P.St      5-1    4-1
       Clemson   4-2    5-0
       FSU       6-0    2-2
       Tenn      5-2    1-0-2
       Hou       6-0    3-1
       Lvlle     6-0    3-1-1
       Mich      4-2    4-1
       OK        5-1    3-2
    

    
    Go Miami... what a team...  with equal # of home and road games (6)
    the Raindrops would have finished at 8-4 (based on home and road
    winning pcts).
    

    What's Miami's home vs. away record of pre- and post-game fights?
    
    	--dan'l

    Miami was one of the first schools to go to the almost all home
    game schedule.  Theyreally are tough, ain't they.
    
    JD

    	Plus if Miami had played all of their games at home none of
    their losses could be considered "excellent losses".
    
    				/Don

    What's this about Miami fighting again, etc.?  Did they resort to it in
    their last couple games?  I haven't seen or read anything about Miami
    in the last few weeks, so I really don't know how they behaved.....
    
    Hawk

    re Hawk:
    
    A brawl broke out with about a minute left in last week's Miami-San
    Diego State game.  The fracas was triggered by a late hit on SD State QB
    Dan McGwire (brother of Mark) during a two-point conversion.
                                                                          
    
    py

>    The fracas was triggered by a late hit on SD State QB
>    Dan McGwire (brother of Mark) during a two-point conversion.
    
    More like a late body slam.
    
    	--dan'l
    

>    Miami was one of the first schools to go to the almost all home
>    game schedule.  Theyreally are tough, ain't they.
    
    You mean like how ND had 7 home games en route to their national
    championship season 2 years ago?
    
    Joe
        

    Whaddya expect from the 'Canes anyway......  BTW, what was the score of
    that game?  Were they their usual classless selves like I saw during
    the Syracuse massacre?
    
    Hawk

    Joe,
    
    Never claimed ND didn't, however ND followed the lead of other schools,
    most notably Miami, in doing the home schedule thang.  I wish I
    could dig up the article I read a few yers back, which described
    the changes that schools, led by Miami, have undertaken in the last
    few years.  The major ones were the heavy home schedule, the second
    being the sacrificial lamb schedule, as schools like East Carolina
    were willing ot prostitute themselves for big bucks, and the honor
    to get humiliated by the Miami's of the world.
    
    The article correctly predicted that other independents, (namely
    ND and Penn State) would go the heavy home route and start to make
    easier schedules.  
    
    The author said that it wasn't too far-fetched to think of a future
    college football season that resembled the lions vs. the Christians
    every week, with lots of undefeated vying for the mythical and HUGE
    payoffs in the bowl structure....
    
    Another tactic pointed out was the strategic use of the BYE before
    big games, much like Miami last year prior to ND.
    
    JD

   � The author said that it wasn't too far-fetched to think of a future
   � college football season that resembled the lions vs. the Christians
   � every week, with lots of undefeated vying for the mythical and HUGE
   � payoffs in the bowl structure....
    
    Sorta like this season when Virginia briefly made it to the top
    whereupon all the traditional Big Few "lions" started resenting the
    unholy intrusion.
    
    Bob Hunt

    	I was waiting for Dan to blame the Miami/San Diego State fight
    on Notre Dame and Lou Holtz.
    
    				/Don

    
    re /'r
    
    If anyone could come up with an hypothesis 'ol Dano could! 8^)
    
    
    
    
    Steve

    Lets not be naive here.  College football is first and foremost a
    business.  It has little educational value and its main purpose is to
    make money for the university.  With that being the case, a school
    which doesn't do the most possible to maximize its profit is not just
    being naive, it's being stupid.  This includes such things as
    scheduling as many weak teams as possible, scheduling as many home
    games as possible, making the best possible deal it can get for a bowl
    game, having open dates before its biggest game and so forth.  There is
    nothing wrong with this, and the schools with the most leverage call
    most of the shots.  (scheduling weak teams comes with the caveat that
    if the schedule is too weak, it will work against you)
    
    It's a hard, cold, cutthroat business where the bottom line is "just
    win, baby" and no school should be bashed for doing all it can to
    better its position.  I do however agree that a school should not bend
    its admission standards so far that they are ridiculous and a school
    has a moral obligation to not treat its athletes like pieces of meat.
    
    John

                           
    If anything, television has resulted in the scheduling of tougher
    games, not easier ones.  There's always the bowl game if a team wishes
    to schedule nothing but cupcakes, but foregoing any regular-season
    television income probably produces a net loss at most schools from 
    scheduling at least a couple of big games.  Anyone noticed the drop-off 
    in undefeated teams per year from the late 60's and 70's?  Television 
    and parity brought on by the rules changes have improved competition in
    college football.  Of course television generally doesn't care if the 
    games are played home or away, so that decision is still dependent on
    gate receipts. 
    
    What JD has continually refused to acknowledge in the special case of 
    Miami is the number of teams that have dropped them from their 
    schedule like a hot potato in spite of Miami's wishes to continue the
    series.  Seeing that Notre Dame was one of them, you'd think there 
    would be some reluctance to throw stones.  At least I'll give credit 
    to Steve Spurrier, who restored the Miami-Florida rivalry upon his 
    arrival in Gainesville after his predecessor Galen Hall dropped it 
    in a fit of cowardice.
    
    glenn
     

Unfortunately the NCAA still tries to propogate the myth that College football 
is still being played by Student - Athletes. The college game can't have it both
ways. Either admit that it is a business and make the game a minor leagues for
the pros or bring it back to it's previous days of real students playing the
game to win one for the good old U of xxxx and make a real minor league 
business enterprise for feeding into the NFL.

This fancy two step that the NCAA tries to do with the business of college 
football and the old time ideals of students playing football for the 
university can't go on forever.

Metz

    Glenn,
    
    Miami has had more cupcakes on its schedule then most other teams.
    Yep, ND and Miami no longer play.  So, will Miami go with another
    tough team, or is another San Diego State or Cincinnatti, or Div.
    1-AA in their future???  The article, which must have been about
    3 years ago, since I was living in Andover at the time, was in one
    of the sport mags.  It constantly named Miami as a school that started
    the home loading and the strategic scheduling of cupcakes.
    
    I also don't believe your comment about TV actually fomenting more
    tough games - many of these games were *always* there - TV just
    adds to the hype.  Most of these great games are long standing
    rivalries - Nebraska-Oklahoma, Ohio State-Michigan, USC-Notre Dame.
    
    The fact that there are less undefeated teams can be attributed
    to a better pool of players, more equally spread out then in past
    years, increased pressures brought about by hype and I'd guess
    increased travel, etc.  
    
    JD

    > Miami has had more cupcakes on its schedule then most other teams.
    > Yep, ND and Miami no longer play.  So, will Miami go with another
    > tough team, or is another San Diego State or Cincinnatti, or Div.
    > 1-AA in their future???  The article, which must have been about
    > 3 years ago, since I was living in Andover at the time, was in one
    > of the sport mags.  It constantly named Miami as a school that started
    > the home loading and the strategic scheduling of cupcakes.
    
    I believe the article you are referring to was in Sports Illustrated.
    I read it.  It was one of your irresponsible, the world-is-coming-to-end,
    everything-in-intercollegiate-sports-reeks style story.  Bottom line is
    that the product on the field (in spite of what's going on behind the
    scenes) is as good as it ever was as far as I'm concerned.  The number
    of great games I've seen on television this year has again verified that 
    to me, and a great number of those were inter-conference games.
    
    Miami had home-and-home series in the 80's with Notre Dame, Michigan, 
    Florida, Penn State, Oklahoma, and others which generated tremendous 
    television and revenue interest for Miami.  How many of these series 
    were discontinued by Miami's volition?  (I do know that both Florida 
    and Penn State have restored Miami to their schedules in the 90's, to
    their credit.) 
    
    The fact remains that Miami *especially* cannot economically rely on
    loading up on patsies at home.  Does it mean anything to you that 
    neither the SEC (who picked up So. Carolina and Arkansas) and the ACC 
    (who picked up Florida State) had no great interest in Miami?  Miami 
    does not automatically sell out games in a 80,000-seat home stadium 
    like many of your major state universities.  In spite of a three-year-
    old article that did not foresee the emphasis now being placed on 
    conference alignment, Miami is joining up with the Big East schools 
    and *will* be playing balanced home-and-home schedules with its members.  
    The Big East games might not be incredibly competitive (a fear of mine
    all along), but it wasn't for a lack of Miami trying.
    
    glenn

                 
    > The fact that there are less undefeated teams can be attributed
    > to a better pool of players, more equally spread out then in past
    > years, increased pressures brought about by hype and I'd guess
    > increased travel, etc.  
    
    Oh, and one more thing.  How is increased travel partially responsible
    for parity when you're accusing the teams of disproportionately loading 
    up on home games?  Same with all that hype around games with nothing
    but 30-point-underdog patsies...
    
    glenn
     

    Glenn,
    
    I said I guess about the traveling, but you're right.  Hey, I guessed
    wrong...
    
    jD

    Home and Away records todays USA today.

                                                  1-A opponents
                 Home   Away    Neutral  Final      winning %
       Colorado  6-0    4-1      0-0-1   10-1-1     .550
       Texas     4-1    5-0      1-0     10-1       .567
       Miami     6-0    3-2               9-2       .570
       ND        4-2    4-0      1-0      9-2       .582
       GT        6-0    3-0      0-1      9-0-1     .495
       P.St      5-1    4-1               9-2       .570


    What's all this stuff about Miami playing an all home schedule?
    They played 6 home games and 5 away just like everybody else.

Chuck