Conference 7.286::sports_90

    I heard they got burned the other night with pathetic shooting.  To
    have them struggle the way they have, I'm glad they're still playing
    over .600 ball.  They do still have a winning road record.
    
    _Walt

    Walt,
    
    I saw them a few weeks ago vs. the Sonics.  I know they had a tough
    game vs. LA in OT the night before - but they were really pathetic.
    No flow at all.  The front court was totally asleep out there.
    Didn't look like the same Pistons as last year.  They lost by 25.
    In perspective, last year they were down by 22 to the Sonics at
    Seattle, and came back and beat them.  This year, they went down
    by as many as 30, and never came back.  
    
    Daly looked disgusted with the team's play.  Rodman got chucked
    (for no reason, IMO), and many of the players just seemed to
    sleepwalk. The Microwave, Rodman, and Dumars were the only guys
    who gave in 100% IMO.
    
    I expect them, and Cleveland to rise up in the central.
    
    JD

    I heard Isaiah got thrown out the other night.  What happened?

    I understand that the Pistons have lost 3 in a row on the road to
    the Clippers, Jazz and Warriors.  What's happening Walt?  Just
    road woes or other problems?
    
    Bret

    When you have no rebounding and shoot 37% from the field, that's what
    happens. (Clippers)... I'm not worried about it yet...
    
    -Walt

    PArt of it too, is that the NBA scheudle has passed the ridiculous
    to the obscene. Expansion has meant that teams may now play 4 games
    in 5 nights in different cities. That has got to take something
    out of you.
    
    That is one reason why the road/home disparity is so huge. 
    
    The Pistons, with their own jet (a smart and classy move), may have
    an advantage over the long haul. You'll see other teams doing that
    as well.
    
    I also believe that you'll see the NBA adopt an NFL-type layout
    (where some teams may not play others in a given season).
    
    DrM

    re: .7
    
    Just goes to show you the intellect of the Lakers fans... when they
    won it was because they were the better team (regardless of injuries
    to players on the other team)... when they lost (it was because they
    were all banged up).  Wake up and smell the coffee, injuries are all
    part of the game.  The Pistons are NBA champions.
    
    The asterick should be put next to the Lakers championships... they
    play in the girly-mon Western conference...
    

       Hey Hawk, you a laker fan now! Who'd a thunk it?
                                      Denny  ;^)

    Denny, surely you jest!  But I do love that name- Jimmy Clang!
    
    Hawk

    Hey, Paul, it was a joke.  Get it?

    After Friday night's exhibition at the Gahden, you must mean "Larry
    Clang," right?  9 for 27 from the floor as opposed to 13 of 18 for Mr.
    James (most) Worthy.
    
    Laker_Ken
    
    P.S.
    
    Detroit looks like they still haven't gotten over the loss of Mahorn. 
    Scott Hastings was supposed to be the answer, but he's gone from a
    brief period of starting to now playing only garbage time minutes. 
    With V.J. off to an incredibly bad start, their once-praised bench
    looks very lacking in depth these days.

    yeah it is larry clang
    
    laker_sean  :)

    Sorry guys, Clang has been officially (tm)'d here in SPORTS to refer to
    a certain James.  The use of any other name associated with Clang (tm)
    is null and void.  Again, so sorry!
    
    Hope you're happy!
    
    Hawk

    
    	then it shouldn't be Clang (tm) it should be Clang�!!!

    
    Well guys I gave you Jimmy Clang, I now give you Larry Swishless
    as in no swishes......
    
    mike

    Larry Swishless�(TM), I love it!
    
    Bret
    

    How 'bout Larry Clunk? Might work....
    		Raider_Rich
    

    I think the Pistons have the longest winning streak right now at 9.
    Good way to go into the break....
    
    Edwards and Rodman starting have made a difference with Aguirre and
    Salley coming off the bench...
    
    Good to see Dave Bing make it in the Hall of Fame.... Big Bad Bob
    has to be next....

    The pistons have a win streak of 11 and it will be 13 by Thursday. 
    That will be the longest in the NBA this season.  The sixers presently
    have the longest of 12.  Detroit next 2 games are aginst the heat and
    Magic both at home then its on the road to play the Hawks.  The Pistons
    have not lost since inserting Rodman into the starting lineup.  Mark 
    seems to be accepting his role very well.  They are only 2 games off
    the NBA's best record.  I think that there chances of repeating are 
    extremly good.  I think that Daly might just be the best coach in the
    league.   

    I wouldn't worry about that, the Lakers will never get by Portland.
    But when was the last time you herd of two teams playing back to back
    double overtime games like the lakers and Portland.  Portland might 
    just be the best keep secret in the west.  Even though they lost last
    night to the 76er's.  I just hope that the Pistons keep looking towards
    getting better.  I don;t feel that they can beat Portland in a series 
    right now.

    In a seven game series the Pistons would either sweep the Trailblazers
    or win in five,because of experience.
    
    
    
    
    
    O_J
    

    
    	If Portland ends up with the better record and gets home court
    advantage, forget it Detroit.  Clyde comes to play @ home.
    
    sean

    	Portland has been one of the biggest playoff choke teams in
    recent history.  Let's see them get by the first round before you
    start talking about the finals.  If healthy, the Lakers and Pistons
    are still the teams to beat in their respective conferences.
    
    				/Don

    Portland doesn't even have a better record than the Pistons.I gaurentee
    that they'll choke and finish third.
    
    
    
    
    
    `Nuff said
    O_J
    

>    Portland doesn't even have a better record than the Pistons.I gaurentee
>    that they'll choke and finish third.
 
    	Look at the division and conference they are in.  Looks like
    the NFC-AFC arguments will be rising soon.  8^)
    
    sean

    If Portland isn't careful, they'll end up with the #3 or #4 seed in the
    West.  That will sure increase their chances of "choking".
    
    Mike

	Protland slipped the past couple of games due to Drexler being
    out, otherwise they would still have a better record than Detroit.
    I figure Portland will start to pick up the intensity with Clyde
    back.  It's really hard to tell how they will finish with the West
    being as competitive as I've ever seen it:
    
    	1. LA
    	2. Utah
    	3. Port
    	4. Phe
    	5. SA 
    
    	(my prediction)
    
    sean

    Re .30 
    
    The Pacific division is very tough,but the Pistons are cakewalking
    through the BEST DIVISION IN BASKETBALL.
    
    
    
    
    hope this helps,
    O_J

>    The Pacific division is very tough,but the Pistons are cakewalking
>    through the BEST DIVISION IN BASKETBALL.
    
    Which division has more teams playing over .500 ball?

    
    When did Detroit join the Pacific Division?

    	BTW, how many home games vs away games has chicago played vs
    detroit?
    
    hope this helps,
    
    sean

    HAHAHAHAHAHA(tm)!  Let's not start this foolish East Coast/West Coast
    is tougher than the West Coast/East Coast debate again......
    
    And now, for something completely different........  Even though Bill
    Russell has more championships, Wilt Chamberlain was the best center to
    ever play in the NBA.
    
    :-)
    
    H'awk

    re .34
    Which division has more teams with 30+wins??
    
    
    O_J

    	re: .38
                                        
    	I give up.
    
    	Which team has more players with more sons and daughters who
    choose Jiff� peanut butter over Skippy�?
    
    sean 

    Re .36
    
    Detroit has beaten Chicago both times they've played.In the first game
    they held Jordan to 16 points.In the second game without Aguirre in
    Chicago they beat them.
    
    
    BTW Both divisions have 4 teams playing .500 ball.
    
    O_J
    
    
    
    
    

    re: .40
    
    	So what's the ratio of home-away games for chicago and detroit?
    
    	I guess I could get a paper and look it up.
    
    sean

================================================================================
Note 52.37             Official W.C. Detroit Pistons topic              37 of 41
SASE::SZABO                                          10 lines   1-MAR-1990 11:11
              -< Let's be intelligent for once, shall we?  :-)  >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>    And now, for something completely different........  Even though
>    Magic Johnson has more championships, Larry Bird was the best to
>    ever play in the NBA.
    
>    :-)
    
>    H'awk

    
    	All right, so I went and got a paper and it doesn't have the
    home and away records...  Here's a rating of the top 6 teams for w-l
    percentage:
    
    1. LA Lakers 	40-13  WEST
    2. Det Pistons    	41-15  least
    3. Uta Jazz		39-16  WEST
    4. Por Blazers	38-17  WEST
    5. SA Spurs		37-17  WEST
    6. Phe Suns		36-17  WEST                  
    
    	Looks like we have a pretty convincing NFC-AFC argument.
    Lesse:
    
    	LA Lakers : SF 49ers :: Magic Johnson : Joe Montana
    	Detroit Pistions : Denver Broncos :: Isiah Thomas : John Elway
    
    and we all know what happened to Denver 8^) 8^) 8^)
    
    hope this helps 8^)
    
    sean

>    1. LA Lakers 	40-13  WEST
>    2. Det Pistons    	41-15  least
>    3. Uta Jazz	39-16  WEST
>    4. Por Blazers	38-17  WEST
>    5. SA Spurs	37-17  WEST
>    6. Phe Suns	36-17  WEST                  
    
    Notice 3 of the leagues top 6 are in the PACIFIC Division.
    
    Hope this helps,
    Mike
    

    There's no question that the Pacific division is agreat division,but as
    far as overall balance the central is the best.
    
    
    
    O_J

    27. Charlotte Hornets	 9-44  WEST
    26. Miami Heat		11-46  east
    25. New Jersey		13-42  east
    24. Minnesota		15-40  WEST
    23. Sacramento		15-39  WEST
    22. Orlando			16-40  east
    21. Washington		22-35  east
    20. LA Clippers		21-33  WEST
    
    Bottom eight look about even.
    
    19. Houston	Rockets		24-31  WEST
    18. Golden State Warriors	24-30  WEST
    17. Cleveland Caveliers	25-28  east
    16. Atlanta Hawks		26-29  east
    15. Seattle Supersonics	28-25  WEST
    14. Indiana Pacers		30-26  east
    13. Denver Nuggets		29-25  WEST
    12. Dallas Mavericks	31-24  WEST
    11. Milwaukee Bucks		32-24  east
    
    Middle nine are in favor of the East.
    
    10. Boston Celtics		32-22  east
     9. Philadelphia 76ers	35-21  east
     8. Chicago	Bulls		35-20  east
     7. New York Knicks		36-19  east
     6. Phoenix	Suns		35-17  WEST
     5. San Antonio Spurs	37-17  WEST
     4. Portland Trailblaizers	37-17  WEST
     3. Utah Jazz		39-16  WEST
     2. Detroit Pistons		41-15  east
     1. LA Lakers		40-13  WEST
    
    Top ten in favor of West.
    
    By Division:
    Pacific	200-174 .535
    Central	205-182 .529
    Midwest	184-197 .483
    Atlantic	149-185 .446
    
    By Division (taking out the 4 expansion teams)
    Midwest	160-113 .586
    Central	189-142 .571
    Pacific	200-174 .535
    Atlantic 	138-139 .498
    
    What does this all mean?  Judging by the fact that in both cases
    a west division beats an east division (1-3 and 2-4) I'd say that
    the west is slightly better as a whole.
    
    The Wizard
    

    The West is the best.  The West iiiis the best.  
    
    
    

    Lesse:
    
    >	LA Lakers : SF 49ers :: Magic Johnson : Joe Montana
    >	Detroit Pistions : Denver Broncos :: Isiah Thomas : John Elway
    
    
    Problem with this holding water... 
    1) Pistons go on same line as 49ers as defending champs
    2) Portland/Lakers would be the new team from the "other conference"
    3) Dumars was the finals MVP, not Thomas or Magic...
    now that we have this facts in proper perspective, the rest makes
    sense...
    
     
    >and we all know what happened to Denver 8^) 8^) 8^)
    
    >hope this helps 8^)
    
    -Walt

    How can anyone ever compare Thomas to Elway.  But back to the Powerful 
    Pistons.  There game aginst the 76 ers Friday night was a statement to
    the rest of the NBA about who will be in the NBA finals.  Down by 4
    with 5.2 ticks on the clock and to come back and win it is truly a 
    accomplishment that is only done by teams of championship caliber
    (Celts, Lakers).  Detroit is the team to beat nomatter where the game
    is played.  Has there ever been a better defense in the NBA?  There
    is no doubt about it Detroit should have two or three guys on the all
    NBA defensive team.  With Rodman winning best defensive player.

    
    	Detroit did not win that game... Philadelphia lost it.  Detroit's
    ability to convert Philadelphia crucial mistakes does show why they
    are a championship caliber team.  Undoubtedly they have the best
    defense in the NBA.  I still don't think their Bad Boy image has
    been erased.  They play rough.  I like Rodman as best defensive
    player.  He's ferocious and quick on defense.  I'm not sure I like
    anyone else for the all NBA defensive team, though.
    
    sean

    
    Dumars certainly deserves consideration just ask Michael....
    
    
    but what's he doing starting trouble with a nice guy like Rick Mahorn?
    ;^)
    
    mike

    
    	Dumars would definitely be second on my list for Detroit.  I
    think Michael is a better defensive player than him, though...
    The Dumars-Mahorn incident was amusing.  8^)
    
    sean

    CONGRATS, Walt, for Miss Michigan winning the Miss USA pageant!
    
    Hawk

    Its really to bad that a lot of what Detroit does cannot be measured in
    stats.  Detroit took that game away from the 76ers.  How do you think
    Barkley felt after his pointing the finger show at Rodman,  then to
    miss the front end of what should have won the game.  I felt the foul
    call was questionable.  After the halftime show Ricky got he had to do
    something.  But with Dumars?  Look for the Pistons winning streak to 
    continue next is the kings at home and away at Jersey and Charlotte.
    This team has great great chemistry.  Can any one name one aspect of
    the game that the pistons lack in?  With this kind of team, repeating
    may not be out of ones expectations.

    
    The starting five lacks an offensive threat from the forwards. Rodman's
    a dunker and Laimbeer can only shoot from the outside. Neither can
    really create a shot for themselves....
    
    brains?
    
    mike
    

	Detroit getting to the finals is definitely an expectation for
    me.  After winning the WC last year I think they came into this
    season without the "hunger".  I thought for sure this would doom
    them but they were able to turn it around.  Their defense is the
    best, and it helps their offense out a lot.  They can still work
    on their offense, especially their half court game (IMO). 
    	No matter how much I like Chicago I know that beating Detroit,
    especially after watching their previous 2 games together, is a
    far stretch.  We'll have to see if Detroit can keep up the intensity
    as the season winds down.  My bet is they can.
    	As for repeating...  Well, I like LA 8^)
    
    sean  

    Well Mike neither Bill or Rodman have to do those things.  They have 
    Thomas and Joe and Mark and Edwards and Vinnie to do the creating.
    If Bill and Rodman were that way, there would not be enough basketballs
    to go around.  There is no doubt about what Bill and Dennis get paid
    for its rebounding.  Between the two of them they lead the rest of the
    team 2 to 1. Thats the total team.  Bill's outside shot is just an 
    asset.  With Rodman its the way he gets out on the break for his extra
    asset.  Dennis always runs the break to the weak side to draw the
    defense.  This give the ball handler at least two options.  Dennis is so
    fast that the defensive guy must really be on his toes or get burned.
    If the defense commits to Dennis then the ballhandler (usually Thomas)
    takes it all the way, If the Defense commits to the ballhandler then
    its crowd pointing time.  Know what I mean!.  We won't even get into
    Rodmans defense, did you see the Rockets game when center/superstar
    akeem got his game winning (dunk) shot blocked at the end of regulation.
    So really do the pistons lack in this department? 
    I am also concerned that the pistons may lose some intensity.  But only
    if the is some unhappyness (Aguirre) in the team that may deviate them
    from there concentration level.  If Mark is unhappy the whole team
    suffers.  But lets hope Isiah's influence has an affect on this
    potential situation.  Of course baring injuries too.  I don't agree
    that there half court needs a lot of work but it would be nice to have
    another post up style player.  I do think that that is Aguirre's
    biggest potential to help the club and he should concentrate more on
    that game.
    
    Larry 

    
    didn't say they had to score Larry, you asked what they were lacking
    so I gave you my opinion. If they face another good defensive team 
    who can control Isiah, Joe and Edwards what are they going do? 
    If you answer with Mark then you get murdered defensively and on the
    boards, Salley is a better option but still lacks offensive fire
    power. If you answer with Vinny, you loose your best point man or
    your best defensive guard and probably all-around scorer. You could
    go three guard but again you get small and suffer on the boards.
    
    Their defense is their saving grace, I see holes offensively that
    can be exploited by a good defensive team. 
    
    mike

    Boy are you right Mike.  But I feel that in the NBA defense is more
    important than offense.  Then again you can't win games without
    scoring.  If Detroit is going to win another title Sally must become
    more of an offensive threat.  You made a good point Mike!
    Larry
    

    rep .58
    
    That's like saying if you take away the offense from the Lakers they
    can be had.
    
    
    O_J

    
    No it isn't O_J. The Lakers 5 starters all are capable of scoring.
    As are a couple of members of their bench. The Pistons on the other
    hand rely on three starters and two reserves to get the job done.
    Another words seeing you didn't understand it the first time, with the
    Pistons you can overplay the three big guns amoungst the starters
    and shut them down. The Lakers on the other hand can adjust and use
    AC or Thompson to score if you take away the other three....
    
    mike

    
    	The key to shutting down Detroit is to shut down the guards.
    Thomas is a weird player, he always is there in the clutch to come
    through.  He is the big play man for the team IMO and to effectively
    shut him out especially in the end of a game in a pressure situation
    is very key.  Laimbeer is the only weak link I see in Detroit.
    He has on and off games but it doesn't really matter because someone
    else picks up the slack if he isn't there.  Rodman is there to grab
    offensive rebounds and to apply killer defense, there is no way
    to shut him down unless he himself is having a bad day.  Edwards
    is killer with those fall aways (arrghhh!) and so is Dumars from
    the outside.  Detroit just has so many weapons it's hard to focus
    on what you have to do to stop them.  I think effectively stopping
    the guards and fast breaking is a key to beating Detroit.
    
    sean

    There is no doubt that 45 to 50% (conservatively speaking) of Detroits 
    scoring comes from the guard position.  But there is no way to stop it
    either.  If you double team Isiah he can dish it about as good as any
    one in the league.  If you double team Joe he also looks for the outlet
    well.  As for Vinnie he is going to shoot it any way and look for the 
    foul.  I think that Bill Laimbeer has made a career out of people
    double teaming people on his team.  When they do double team one of 
    the guards Bill moves to the outside and gets the pass for the open 'J'
    He might just be the best outside shooting center in the NBA.  In
    stoping the break that too is hard to do aginst the Pistons, due to the
    teams rebounding ability.  Detroit wants other teams to crash the
    boards that opens the gates for the fast break.  If Detroit gets into
    a half court game they are very good here too.  Because of rebounding 
    ability.  Doesn't Detroit lead the league in offensive rebounding.
    For as much as there guards score there combined shooting percentage
    is a few points under 50% .  On paper it is hard to figure out why the
    Pistons win.  So to call Laimbeer a weak link is a serious oversight
    Larry

    
    	I'm the one who said Laimbeer was a weak link 8^)  I still feel
    that way, though.  I don't think he is that great a defender and
    he is very suspect to streakiness/foul trouble/letting his emotions
    get in the way.  He benefits from being the open man on double teaming
    as you stated.  
    
    sean

    
    Lambieer is weak, how much did he contribute last year to their success
    in the playoffs? Lambieer isn't a great outside shooter especially when
    you consider 90% of the time there isn't anyone in his face. He's hot
    or cold period. 
    
    mike

    Well Lamb-beer is an okay player in my book.But the guy is a jerk.You
    can take one player from the Laker's offense and it totally shuts them
    down.Guess who??Try doing that to Detroit.You take away Isaih,you got
    Dumars and VJ.Take away Dumars it's vice-versa.An example of this would
    be when Thomas got hurt in a fight and missed a lot of the last few
    games.What did they do?They went and romped Cleveland AT Cleveland.They
    finished the season the hottest in the league.
    
    
    
    O_J

    Thanks Hawk...
    
    Now... Laimbeer, he scores, but he's important on the boards and
    setting picks. So he's no Ewing... so?
    
    re the Philly game:  Good teams find a way to win...
    
    I think 18-1 stretch shows they have their mind together for right
    now...
    
    -Walt
    

    I am with Walt on this one.  I think Bills part in the pistons is
    being very underated in this topic.  His physical presents on the court
    causes other teams a lot of problems.  He is very physical and via his
    style takes many players out of there game.  Bill is always throwing
    flagrant elbows, giving little pushes, stepping on toes anything to
    make the opponent angry thus the opponent doesn't think about
    basketball he wants to fight.  He does this very well aginst the Hawks
    Dominque Wilkens.  I am not saying I proud of Bills style but it is 
    very affective.  He also possesses a strong desire to win, I do like
    that.  He is very hard on himself and expects a lot of himself.  This
    carries over to the rest of the team and you can see it in players like
    Rodman and Sally.  Its like Bills whole excistance is to help his team
    in any way he can.   Bills game will never make a fundamental film but
    is a very important asset to the Pistons.   He is one of a Kind
    Larry
    

    
    Geez Walt where you been? I was wondering when you toss your hat in
    here. Lamibeer's rebounding is important to the Pistons but I think
    if he wasn't there Salley could pick up the slack with some help from
    the Worm. Bill isn't physical he's a cheapshot period. I'd be willing
    to bet Spud could rip him apart in a little fistcuffs.
    
    mike

    re: .66
    >>can take one player from the Lakers's offense and it toally shuts them
    >>down.Guess who??Try doing that to Detriot.You take away Isaih,you got
    
    Are you saying the Lakers are one man offensive team ? If you know who
    that player is how come most other teams don't know about that and are
    still guessing who that player is ? If they do know how come they are
    not able to stop him ?
    
    -- Ram Nori

    I will tell who that Laker player is, its  'Magic' There should be
    little doubt That the entire Laker team is structured around him.
    Everyone but Worthy that is.  When Magic is not in the game the 
    Lakers are no where near the caliber team they are when he is in.
    That has been proven.  Just look at last years Lakers won/lose record
    When Magic was injured.  Magics injuries cost the Lakers home court in
    the finals. Then his injury cost the Lakers the Championship.  Without
    Magic the Lakers wouldn't even be in the finals.  He isn't the entire
    offense, but he runs it and without him the Lakers are just another 
    "also ran"  team.  He if anyone ever did deserves his MVP status.
        As for you Laimbeer critics did you see last nights performence.
    I think Bill is reading this file.  
    
    

>        As for you Laimbeer critics did you see last nights performence.
>    I think Bill is reading this file.  
 
    	It was a "Laimbeer" critic who entered it (me).  And to think
    he did all that against Sacramento! 8^)  Like I said, Bill is at
    best, inconsistent and unreliable.  I never said he was not capable
    of having great games.  He's an average center at best... not to
    be confused with players like Ewing, Akeem and Robinson.  IMO
    
    sean

    The point is, what is needed from Bill is delivered by Bill Last night
    it was scoring and rebounding.  Laimbeer is a better than average
    center.  I will bet that you cannot name more then five that are
    better.  That makes him better than average.  This guy always comes
    to play.  He may be inconsistent but unreliable is totally wrong.
    How many game has he missed in his entire career?  Answer to few to
    be called unreliable.  With that statment your obviously not a 
    Laimbeer fan.  I am and I say that Bill Laimbeer's importantance to
    the Pistons is being totally underated.  I believe that Daly feels
    this way also or Bills minutes would not be so high as far as the
    teams average is.  Chuck knows Basketball!  
    
    Larry
    
    

    
>    Laimbeer is a better than average
>    center.  I will bet that you cannot name more then five that are
>    better.  That makes him better than average.  
    
    	Wow, this is going to be tough:  8^)
    
    	Malone (Atl)
    	Parish (Bos)
    	Olajuwon (Hou)
    	West (Phe)
    	Smits (Ind)
    	Robinson (SA)
    	Ewing (NY)
    	Sikma (Mil)
    	Duckworth (Por)
    	Seiklay (Mia)
    	Thompson (LA) 
    	Bowie (NJ)
    
    	This is of course, off the top of my head. 
    
    	Man, Pistons fans sure are cocky about ALL their players aren't
    they!  8^)
    
    sean	

    re:.71
    
    I agree Magic is their main player but still not one man team as you
    guys are saying. What are Pistons without Isiah ? Don't give me that
    they won few games without him during regular season, when needed he
    makes the right play for Pistons most of the time. Where would be
    Rodman, Salley and compay without him ? The answer is no where. Does
    that make Pistons one man team ? BTW Magic did play in two game in the
    finals without Scott and as you know they lost both those games. Last
    night they lost to Houston without Scott again eventhough Magic played.
    In short both offense and defense in Basketball is a team effort, an
    individual may have better skills and pick up the slack, if someone is 
    out of from but still needs support from rest of his teammates.
    
    Agreed Isiah and Dumars are good, but it was only after Rodman and
    Salley joined the team they reached finals. 
    
    -- Ram Nori

    whoa! I can see why you think all those guys are better there respected
    teams sure do reflect there talents.  If you cannot see Laimbeers 
    importance to the Pistons.  Then your overall basketball knowledge has
    got to be questioned.  Which is going to happen anyway after reading
    your list.  I am not saying Bill is the key to the pistons all I am 
    saying is that in the Detriot system he is exactly what he needs to be.
    Also in winning the championship Bill has played a major role.  One 
    more thing out of all the teams you listed there is not one of them
    that would not welcome a Bill Laimbeer.
    
    Larry  

                                               
    	Who's confused here?  You asked me to name 5 centers that I
    thought were better than Laimbeer.  I did (in fact I think I named
    12 off the top of my head).  Now you turn around and say Bill is
    not the key to Detroit...
    
    sean

    Re:Ram
    
    No one can stop Magic.Period.All I'm saying is if he doesn't play a
    mediocre team can beat LA.
    
    O_J

    No Sean, I am saying that if something happened to Bill Detroit would
    still be a good team.  But with Bill the pistons are a very good team.
    Thats what makes Detroit so much better then other teams.  There is 
    not a player on Detroits team that is a franchise by them self.  But
    every player of the top 8 has something about them that they do as 
    good as anyone in basketball.  This my friend is Chemistry.  Other
    teams in the league cannot claim this like the Bulls,Rockets,Hawks
    etc...  There is only a couple that can they are the Lakers,Pistons,
    Trailblazers and on somenights the Celtics.  This Chemistry that I
    talk of is what Championships are made of.  I am having a hard time
    understanding what it is that you think a persons of Bills caliber
    should have to do to be called a better then average Center.  I feel
    like I'm arguing with a laker fan.  If that is true let me know and
    I will reword my explanation so you too can understand it.
    
    

    
    	What does being a laker fan have anything to do with this??
    8^)  (This makes the second time I've been accused, I feel like
    it's a disease or something!)  All I'm saying is that Bill is an
    average center because of what I've seen from him.  It's true that
    he might be hurt because of the team he is on but being on a team
    of that caliper might even help him out.  What I'm saying is that
    I can't see Laimbeer being the franchise, clutch time player if
    he were transplanted to say some terrible team with no supporting
    cast.  I feel he benefits more from the great players around him.
    This is JMO, of course.  
    
    	Gosh, am I sick of talking about Detroit!!! 8^) 8^) 8^)
    
    sean

    
    
    Regardless of what anyone thinks Bill Lamb-beer is NOT an average
    center.He's no Akeem.......So what??I will say that he has made the
    all-star team and has only missed 2 games in a 10 year span-and neither
    were from injuries.Bill has consistanly been one of the best rebouders
    in the league is a KEY to the Pistons offense.............
    
    JMO,
    O_J

    Nomatter what team laimbeer plays on he would be an asset.
    In other words a better then average Player.
    Larry

    Laimbeer is one of the better high-post centers in the NBA, if that is
    your preference.  He does pose some interesting scenarios for teams
    that don't have enough big people.  That means a guard has to defend
    him rather than throwing a big, agile forward on him.
    
    Mike

    Re: .78
    
    Most teams do have one super star or a leader, without him they can
    loose to any mediocre team, you can make a list of those teams, which
    includes every team in NBA.
    
    Bill Laimbeer, he is cheap shot artist.
    
    -- Ram Nori
    

    Re: last
    You are right.But the Lakers proved last year that even for a short
    period of time that they can't survive without MJ.I bet you that Magic
    is more than 50% of Worthy's offense.When the Pistons lost Isaih last
    year,they actually played BETTER when they had him.......
    
    JMO,O_J
    

    Re. .85  "the Lakers proved last year that even for a short period of
    time that they can't survive without MJ.  I bet you that Magic is more
    than 50% of Worthy's offense."
    
    O_J, when are you going to get off this kick?  I assume that the
    reference to last year is in regard to the championship series.  If so,
    then what you're conveniently neglecting to mention is that the Lakers
    played without Magic AND Byron Scott.  Scott was a 20 ppg, 50 percent
    shooter last year.  What the Hell did you think would happen if ANY
    team lost its starting backcourt?  What do you think would have
    happened if the shoe was on the other foot -- if Magic and Byron played
    but Isiah and Dumars were out?  The answer is obvious.  Would it then
    be fair to say that Detroit is not a strong team because they could
    not survive the loss of their starting backcourt?  Of course not.  It
    would be ridiculous.  As is your statement about the Lakers.  
    
    Oh, and as for your comment about Worthy, come on.  I didn't see Magic
    on the floor in Game 4 when Worthy scored 40 as the only real scoring
    threat for the Lakers.  I'm really getting tired of folks writing off
    Worthy as merely a by-product of Magic.  Worthy would be a star on any
    team.  What percentage of Karl Malone's offense is due to John
    Stockton?  
    
    Re. all this Laimbeer talk, it seems like much ado about nothing. 
    Laimbeer will never be remembered as a notable center.  But who cares? 
    He's a solid defensive rebounder and he gives them a 3-pt threat on
    offense.  He fits in with the chemistry of the team and the team wins. 
    Hell, the Lakers won 2 championships with Kurt Rambis as their starting
    power forward.  He'll never go down in history as a great forward, but
    he was a crucial ingredient to the team's success.  I wish they still
    had him!  Laimbeer is, however, a cheapshot artist, but that's another
    discussion entirely.
    
    Laker_Ken

I own Laimbeer in a rotisserie and he's as inconsistent as they 
come. 25 pts, 10 rbns one night, 2 pts and zip the next.

daryll

>I own Laimbeer in a rotisserie and he's as inconsistent as they 
>come. 25 pts, 10 rbns one night, 2 pts and zip the next.
 
    	Did you pick him?  I agree with you completely.  So Bill had
    a good night against Sacramento, does anyone care to post his stats
    for the crucial Detroit-Philly game?  All I'm saying is that at
    best, he is average.  His inconistency is his primary foe.
    
    sean

    Ken.THINK BEFORE YOU TYPE!!Maybe you should actually READ the reply for
    once.I said when they lost him during the regular season.
    
    
    
    
    Spare me,
    
    O_J

    O_J,
    
    Your reply said, "Lakers proved last year that even for a short period
    of time that they can't survive without MJ."  I can indeed read, and
    this statement does not indicate whether you are talking about the
    regular season or the championship.  I assumed you were talking about
    the championship because during the regular season Magic only missed 5
    games and the Lakers were certainly able to survive.  In fact, they
    finished with the second best record in the NBA.
    
    

    
    Lakers lost because they WERE NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO WIN!  PERIOD!

	re: .94
    
    	are you sure it wasn't because Detroit was not bad enough to
    lose.  period?
    
    just wondering,
    
    sean

Nope, I inherited this team from Al Cote when he left DEC. 
Laimbeer is starting because Ellison is/was on IR. I start him 
every week and pray that he has his good game of the week on the 
night we use his stats...

Meanwhile, Beak is kicking my butt...

daryll

                                *      *      *
                                  *    *    *
                                    *  *  *
                                      ***
                               *****************
                                      *** 
                                    *  *  *
                                  *    *    *
                                *      *      *
    

    re. 98                                                          
    
    	did I miss something, what's the enlarged asterik for?
          
    	Detroit at NJ tonight, 7:35pm 
    
    	Which Bill will we see?  Does it really matter?  It's NJ isn't
    it?  Anyone willing to predict a NJ upset?  I didn't think so.
    Ok, I will.  8^) 
    
    sean

>    	Which Bill will we see?  Does it really matter?  It's NJ isn't
>    it?  Anyone willing to predict a NJ upset?  I didn't think so.
>    Ok, I will.  8^) 

Definitely!  The Nets will thrash the Pistons.  Lester Conner will
steal the rock from Isiah 10 times tonight.  Bowie will dominate
both Edwards and Laimbeer, simultaneously.  Rodman will not
be able to stop Chris Morris.  Gervin and short will score
20 apiece off the bench, exposing Aguirre as a sham of 
a defender.  Cranky Bill will totally outcoach Cranky CHuck.

Even the Nets trainer is better!!!

Dan

Anybody know why when I try to read .92 and .93 I keep getting an error 
message saying that the reply is currently being written?  

    re .101:
    
    > Anybody know why when I try to read .92 and .93 I keep getting an error 
    > message saying that the reply is currently being written?  
    
    A lot of people have been getting "path to network node lost" errors
    lately while trying to reply to a note; the result is the "note is
    being written" message you describe.  Apparently there's a network
    problem on OURGNG...
    
    
    py                  

    Re Ken 
    
    
    Chill out will ya??You miss read my reply because you were so angry at
    what I said and you didn't calm yourself down before you read it.....8^
    
    All I'm saying is that the Lakers in the past have had thier share of
    problems when MJ is out.Show me a record of how they've done and I bet
    it's a mediocre one.
    
    
    
    
    
    Hope this helps,
    O_J

       The * is for all the whining certain Laker fans did last year. Some
    said it should be placed next to the Pistons title in the record book
    because the Lakers played without Magic and Scott.
                                        Denny

    
    What did you smoke for lunch, Dan? Ha ha! The Nets are without a doubt
    the worst team in the league. Charlotte is close but still better.
    

Re. .104

It wasn't whining.  And no, I don't actually believe they should put the 
asterisk in the record book.  But I don't think you can deny the fact that
when people look back at last year's championship, the absence of Magic and
Scott is what they will remember.  And it will always be a subject of debate
as to what would have happened had they played.  

Incidentally, this is not just my, admittedly Laker-biased, opinion.  At
the start of this season, I read all the NBA preview mags.  When discussing
the Pistons and Lakers, there wasn't one that didn't start off by framing 
the article within the context I have described above.  As much as you might
like to think otherwise, that's the way history will look back on it.

Actually, I think it will work in the Pistons' favor this time around.  It 
serves as a motivating tool.  They know that if they lose to the Lakers in
this year's finals, folks will say that last year's title was a fluke.  At
any rate, I think it's going to be a rematch and it should be one Helluva 
series.

Laker_Ken

    Re -1
    
    Nah,Miami would whip the Nets!!!...............8^
    
    
    O_J

    They gave me work to do Mike... that and the network problems makes
    it tough... LDUC's make me shy away when I have limited time...
    
 >  	Malone (Atl)         not any more
 >   	Parish (Bos)         maybe
 >   	Olajuwon (Hou)       ok
 >   	West (Phe)           nope
 >   	Smits (Ind)          getting there, not better
 >   	Robinson (SA)        ok
 >   	Ewing (NY)           ok
 >   	Sikma (Mil)          getting old, I don't think so
 >   	Duckworth (Por)      inconsistent
 >   	Seiklay (Mia)        will be, about the same right now, has to keep
                             proving it
 >   	Thompson (LA)        nope, not the offensive threat
 >  	Bowie (NJ)           not yet
    
 You're missing Daugherty on this list, who I think is even too...
    
    -Walt

    Denny,
    
    Actually, no Laker fans said an asterisk should be put nexted to
    the win. Celtic fans such as yourself started that drivel.  Many
    fans, whether Laker fans, such as Ken, or non-Laker fans, such as
    myself, commented that the series was a foregone conclusion with
    Magic and Scott out - in other words, I felt, as did others, that
    the series was over as soon as they got hurt.  However, many of
    us didn't say the Lakers would have won if the two hadn't got hurt,
    simply that it *probably* would have been a better series.  The
    Pistons still may have swept.  However, Celtic  fans, who are by
    far the largest number of fans in here (and IMHO the whiniest)
    started the asterisk crap.
    
    Later,
    
    JD

    Yes,the Celts fans did start it.But were we whining when we limped our
    way into the `87 finals.Maybe we should put an * next to that series
    `cause if we were healthier we would have taken them to 7,no question
    about it.And what about the `88 finals??Thomas in game 6 hurts his
    wrist,what if that never happened??Let's face it,they lost that game by
    1 point and his injury was the difference.
    
    
    JMO
    O_J

    
    JD,
    
    I think you are way off base with that last reply.  Several LAker
    fans (not all) said that there should be an asterisk next to the 
    Detroit win.  The Celtic fans mostly laughed, and pointed out the
    '86 Finals in which McHale and Parish were injured and the _fact_
    that there was relatively little (certainly less that there was
    from some of the Laker fans) whining.  I distinctly remember being
    corrected that you can only give an asterisk to a team if the players
    are out of the game.  Merely injured and not able to run didn't
    count.  I found the Laker Asterisk Foundation of Rulers
    (LAFR--pronounced laugher) quite humorous.
    
    
    Bruce  

    Bruce,
    
    SInce you are a Celts fan, thats a typical reply.  Actually it was
    more like someone said "maybe their should be an asterisk next to
    the win" (and I think that may have been said by a PISTON fan) -
    and from their all hell broke loose.  And it's still being bandied
    about by the lovers of the Celtics.  
    
    JD

    
    Well JD, from .111 to .114 you've gone from no LAker fan said there
    should be an asterisk to a possibility that someone may have said
    it.  But go ahead and argue that Celtics fans started it if it really
    makes you feel better.  I think we are also responsible for war,
    pestilence, floods, and famine, too.
    
    Bruce

    Bruce,
    
    I said I thought it was a Piston fan - and the way the comment came
    out it was obvious it was meant to be sarcastic (the original comment
    way back lasted year).  From their, the mighty Jihad, always looking
    at a team or opposition player to rail against, started the mighty
    asterisk war.   It doesn't make me feel any better, but to tell
    ya the troof, I'm sick of hearing about the asterisk everytime a
    conversation starts in the Pistons note.  ANd note who brought it
    up this time - not a Laker fan...
    
    JD

>    about it.And what about the `88 finals??Thomas in game 6 hurts his
>    wrist,what if that never happened??Let's face it,they lost that game by
>    1 point and his injury was the difference.
    
    You can add the fact that Kareem is protected by the refs in crucial
    situations.  That call on Laimbeer with less than 12 secs. left
    should've been a non-call.  Considering Laimbeer's rep, it would've
    been a non-call with anyone else guarding Kareem.  It was, if anything,
     a real ticky-tack foul.
    
    Detroit should be working on BACK TO BACK TO BACK!

    See ther's Heiser, a Celts fan, whinig about the refs.  Man, like
    the Celts never, ever received a favorable call?  Give me a break.
    
    All superstars get favorable calls - right or wrong, it's a fack
    of life in the NBA.
    
    JD
    
    

    Gee, I thought Thomas hurt his wrist last year, his ankle in the
    '88 finals... sure other memories aren't clouded?
    
    
    -Walt

    Regardless of what the injury was ,he got it and that was the
    diferrence.
    
    
    
    
    Hope this helps,
    O_J

       So how do you explain the outcome of game #1 last year JD?
                                            Denny

    So Denny, Fairy Bird is healthy this year, what's the Celt's excuse ?
    
    HAHAHHAHAHA
    
    Doc

    Denny,  
    
    I have offered no excuses for the losses.  I've simply said that
    anyone who knows basketball knows that when a team loses Byron Scott,
    and then Magic Johnson, that they are in trouble, and it will affect
    the team's performance.  Some folks have acted like it didn't make
    a difference, and hey, the Pistons still may have swept a completely
    healthy Laker squad - which is something I've said all along, except
    IMO the games, and the series, would have been better to watch -
    from the humble opinion of a Hoops fan.   I figured when Scott got
    hurt, the Lakers would be hurting, but might overcome the loss of
    his 20 points - mainly by Magic turning his game up a notch.  When
    Magic went down, I knew the series was over - and I didn't like
    it cause I wait all year to see good playoffs between the best teams.
    I like to see all series go 7 games.  I always feel cheated by a
    a sweep cause hoop season ends that much earlier...
    
    JD

       Hey Dock, how'd the 6ers do vs. Joe Kleine and the boys yesterday?
                                           Denny

    
    re: .124
    
    Don't know how they did... but I know they're ahead of the Celtics
    and they've played more road games... hope this helps...

    re : .119
    
    Just seeting the record straight. Thomas broke his wrist during the
    regular season and was fit during the playoffs.
    
    -- Ram Nori

    re :.119
    
    I forgot add Thomas hurt his ankel during almost end of 6th game.
    Basically he played hurt just in game 7. I know it could have mattered
    one way or other but they did not get it done in 6 earlier games, why 
    guess what could have happened if he was healthy ? For all you know if 
    Thomas was healthy Lakers would have blown them away. It it just my guess.
    
    Also playing hurt is different from not playing at all. I hope you
    guys know the difference.
    
    -- Ram  Nori
    

    Injuries are part of the game and good teams don't dwell on it (i.e.,
    Celts in the '87 finals).  Some teams just have the heart NOT TO GET
    SWEPT!

    Mike, 
    
    You should know - what did the Suns do last year???  Get swept.
    
    And there is a world of difference between being able to play, and
    not being able to play.
    
    And you claim good teams don't dwell on it - but yet the fack that
    the Celts had injuries in 87 keeps coming up.  Seems like dwelling
    to me - or does it only work one way?
    
    JD

    re .125
    
    Thanks Paul. you know 'ole Dennis has to reach for straws when he
    can find them .....

    
    	I agree with JD...  Saying that some teams "have the heart"
    not to get swept is purely ridiculous IMO.  Last year, the Lakers
    were not able to win after losing Magic and Scott early on.
    Good teams don't dwell on past injuries, though.  Usually just the
    fans do.
    	BTW, I'm not sure who started the idea of *'ing the Pistons
    WC last year.  IMO (and being a supreme Laker fan) find it hard
    to believe that LA could have beaten this team even with full strength.
    Detroit earned last years win by combining gutsy play with driven
    emotion... nothing should be detracted from them even though two
    of LA's big men were out.
    
    sean

    JD don't forget the Celtwits got swept too ....
    
    Doc

>    You should know - what did the Suns do last year???  Get swept.
    
    Yeah JD, but they weren't injured so that doesn't prove anything we
    don't already know :-)
    
    Mike

>    	BTW, I'm not sure who started the idea of *'ing the Pistons
>    WC last year.  IMO (and being a supreme Laker fan) find it hard
>    to believe that LA could have beaten this team even with full strength.
>    Detroit earned last years win by combining gutsy play with driven
>    emotion... nothing should be detracted from them even though two
>    of LA's big men were out.
    
    Thanks for the honesty Sean.  Some of us said the same thing back in
    June of '89.  Detroit was too hungry to be denied.
    
    Mike
    

    Mike, you didn't get the feeling the Lakers were kind of hungry after
    sweeping through the conference playoffs (against much tougher
    competition than Detroit faced), to achieve something that no team
    had ever done before?
    
    Laker_Ken       

    HAHAHAHAHAHA(tm)!!!!111(tm)
    
    Stay away from SPORTS for a few days and what do you get?  Deja vued to
    death, that's what!  First, I see the arguement about the "Immaculate
    Reception" has rekindled, then this one again!  Oh well, I guess that's
    what makes SPORTS SPORTS!!!!!1111(tm)
    
    I still love seeing the Lakers fans whine though!!!!1111(tm)  =8^0 (tm)
    
    *H'awk

>                       -< If that ain't hungry what is? >-
>    Mike, you didn't get the feeling the Lakers were kind of hungry after
>    sweeping through the conference playoffs (against much tougher
>    competition than Detroit faced), to achieve something that no team
>    had ever done before?
    
    It was a vast playoff experienced, ex-champion, veteran team playing an
    up & comer, first time on the block, average age of 25 team.
    
    Mike

    
    	Also remember that Detroit lost a heart wrencher to LA the previous
    season.  They were not to be denied.
    
    sean

    Re .135
    
    Who won the toughest division a year ago??
    
    
    Hope this helps,
    O_J

    There is no tougher division in Basketball then the central.   That is
    what makes Detroits current record so impressive.  Even though there
    last few games haven't been aginst central teams they have managed to
    put distance between themselfs and the rest of the pack.  If Detroit
    keeps up this intensity there chances of winning it all will be high.
    But in the NBA all teams seem to hit peaks and valleys.  I just hope
    that Detriot is not peaking to soon.  They are going to have to save 
    there best basketball for the playoffs.  I certainly think that
    Detriots play has still got to be raised another level to win it all
    again.  
    
    larry
     

    	I don't find your argument that the central is the toughest
    division is convincing enough.  Personally, I feel both the Pacific
    and Midwest divisions are tougher.  
    
    sean

    Pacific,maybe,Midwest no.
    
    
    
    
    O_J

    
    Pacific - definately
    
    Midwest - probably
    
    
    Utah = Detroit
    
    Houston = Chicago (one man teams)
    
    Spurs/Mavs/Nuggets > Bucks
    
    the rest : shake and bake

    RE One man teams
    
    
    
    Why don't you add the Lakers in that!!.....8^
    
    O_J

    
    Nah.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Worthy has some help.

    re : .144
    
    Hey, O_J, some of the one man teams are better than the no man teams
    you support in NCAA abd NBA. :-)
    
    -- Ram Nori

    Yeah Ram I can't argue with you there.Derrick Coleman is a nobody,even
    though he is about to become the best rebounder in NCAA history.
    
    
    
    
    O_J

>    Re .135
    
>    Who won the toughest division a year ago??
    
    
>    Hope this helps,
>    O_J

The Lakers of course!
Hope THIS helps!
Bret :^)

    How can anyone say that the western conference is as good as the
    eastern conference.  The Three best teams in Atlantic are better 
    then the three best teams in the midwest.  But the three best teams
    in the Pacific are better then the three best teams in the central.
    But there are more better then average teams in the Central then 
    there are in the Pacific.  Therefor the best devision is the Central
    followed by the Pacific then its Atlantic then Midwest.  Look at the
    playoffs for an example.  The western conference is going to be so 
    predictable.  Unlike the east no one has displayed any dominence.
    Out of the east there are four teams that possibly can win it all.
    N.Y., 76ers, Det, Celtics.  In the west there are only two Port and
    Lakers.  So someone explain how the west is better.
    
    Larry
    

    Re: Western teams winning it all
    
    In addition to Portland and the Lakers winning it all, the following
    could also win it all under the right circumstances:  Phoenix, Utah,
    and San Antonio.
    
    Mike

    
    Oh, I get it, .149 is a joke, right?

    I'd be surprised to see Utah do well in the playoffs.  They seem
    to have a penchant for screwing up when the real money is on the
    line.
    
    Bruce

>    Look at the
>    playoffs for an example.  The western conference is going to be so 
>    predictable.  Unlike the east no one has displayed any dominence.
 
    	This logic escapes me...  If there is no clear dominance in
    the west, how does it make the western conference so predictable?
    Could it also be possible that there is no clear dominance in the
    west simply because it is a tougher conference??
    
>    Out of the east there are four teams that possibly can win it all.
>    N.Y., 76ers, Det, Celtics.  In the west there are only two Port and
>    Lakers.  
 
    	First off, your obvious placement of NY, Boston, and Philly
    OVER Chicago is annoying.  Did you notice Chicago has beaten both
    Boston and NY in the past week??  Secondly, your west coast breakdown
    is very inaccurate.  You ommited such teams as Phoenix, Utah and
    SA.  Perhaps you could explain to me why they do not have a chance?
    ALL of there records are better than the SECOND place Eastern
    conference team!!!
    
>    So someone explain how the west is better.
    
    	Simple, open todays paper and give me a rundown of the top 6
    teams in terms of record in the NBA.  
    
    sean

    I be surprised if the any of the western teams do well other than
    Portland or the Lakers.  To win a NBA championship you must take 
    proper steps, like the pistons did first you win your devision then
    then you win the conference in the following year.  Then you win 
    the title in the following year.  No team ever wins it all in one 
    giant leap.  As for .149 the only joke is that you have nothing else
    to add to change my way of thinking.  No team then the Lakers, Celtics
    Pistons have made these logical steps.  Therefor this years champion 
    will be one of these three teams.
    Larry

    I'm sure that there are teams that have won it all without building up
    to it, ie: Cinderella teams.  How about the Seattle and Portland teams
    of the 70s?  They certainly weren't powerhouses for several years
    before they finally were good enough to win it all.  Sure, the strong
    teams are the ones that survive, year after year, but evry once in a
    while, a weak team will get hot, peak at just the right time, and
    surprise everyone.  It's happened.
    
    Hawk

    	re: .154
    
    	Two questions.  Why do you continually exculde Chicago from
    all your discussions?  Is it because they are in the same division
    as Detroit?  Have they not infact made the *logical* steps from
    just making the quarterfinal round to making the eastern conference
    championship round???
    
    	Also, in the West, no team has really had a chance to progress
    out of the western conference championship besides the Lakers.
    This season, however, there are 5 EXTREMELY valid contenders for
    the *throne* in the West.
    
    	I still don't see how your east is better than west comment
    washes.  Take a look:
    
    	1.  Los Angeles Lakers		West
    	2.  Detroit Pistons             East
    	3.  Utah Jazz                   West
    	4.  Portland Trailblazers       West
    	5.  Phoenix Suns                West
    	6.  San Antonio Spurs           West
    
    	Now take a look at the number of teams in the West with winning
    records against the east and vice versa:
    
    Lakers 	19-5 	      	Detroit 	16-6
    Dallas 	12-6            Chicago		17-9
    Phoenix     14-7            Milwaukee	15-10
    Portland	16-8            NY		15-10
    Denver 	14-8            Boston		16-11
    Utah	17-9
    SA		12-9	
    Seattle	16-11
    Clippers	13-11                     
    
    	Do you still want to argue which conference is better??
    
    sean

    Re last
    
    You make a good argument about the West.But last year there is no
    question that the Central was the best.But let us make a
    comparison,shal we??
    
                           *CENTRAL*
                           
                          Detroit 63-19
    			  Cleveland 57-25
                          Atlanta   52-30	
                          Milwaukee 49-33
    			  Chicago   47-35
    			  Indiana   28-54
    
    
                           **PACIFIC**
    			
    			   LAL 57-25(tied with second place CAVS)		
                           Phoenix 55-27
    			   Seattle 47-35	
                           G.S     43-39
                           Portland 39-43
    			   Sacramento 27-55		
                           LAC        21-61
    
    
    As you can clearly see,the Central was the better division.The average
    number of wins for the Central was 49 while the west was far behind
    with an average of 41.So to sum it up,if the Pistons were playing in
    the Pacific,they would have won 65+ games.
    
    
    Hope this helps,
    O_J  

    Oh,Sean why didn't you discuss all the teams from both conferences so
    we can get a clear evaluation on which conference has the most balance.
    
    
    
    
    O_J

    	O_J, are we discussing balance or the best?   FWIW, I feel that
    both conference are fairly balanced.  In the upper echelon of the
    NBA however, the West is on top by a wide margin.  Here's the overall
    east-west record:
    
    171-144 or (.543) in favor of the West.
    
    Think about, only 5 East teams have winning percentages in the West
    where 9 West teams have winning percentages in the East.  That clearly
    shows that the West is better than the East and is equally as balanced.
    
    sean

    reply .156  
    
         I continually exclude Chicago from my list because they can't beat
    the Pistons.  They are now and only this year making the transition
    from a one player team and still they only have only one go to guy.
    Chicago has a long way to go and its going to have to start by beating
    the Pistons.  Until then they cannot be included.  Granted they will 
    be in the quarterfinals again.  But so what, they cannot beat Detroit
    and untill there experience evolves they won't be able too.  I do like 
    the Bulls and they are a team of the future but they are at least 2 
    years away.  
    
    larry

    	So the Bulls can beat NY, Boston and Philadelphia and they aren't
    a contention team????   Correct me if I'm wrong but what team gave
    the Pistons the hardest time by far during last years playoffs????
    
    sean

    I don't remember him saying that they aren't a contention team.
    
    
    
    O_J

    
    	re: .162
    
    	nope.  it was Chicago who actually led Detroit 2-1 in the best
    of 7 series.
    
    	Just for fun (and I like to play devils advocate).  How confident
    would you east supermists feel if the top 16 teams were taken from
    the league and played without conferences in mind:
    
    1.  LA                  	9.  Philadelphia
    2.  Detroit			10. Boston 
    3.  Utah                    11. Denver
    4.  Portland                12. Dallas
    5.  Phoenix                 13. Milwaukee
    6.  San Antonio             14. Seattle
    7.  Chicago                 15. Indiana
    8.  NY                      16. Houston
  
    	Detroit/Boston/Chicago would have to go through Utah before 
    advancing to the finals.  NY/Philly would have to pass LA and Portland 
    to get to the finals.  
    
    just an observation.
    
    sean

    Sean,I think Mike may have been kidding.Anyhow,Detroit would have to
    pass Utah?I think you meant it the other way around.
    
    
    
    O_J
    

>< Note 52.165 by BAUCIS::SAPP "Chocolate Thunder:The REAL Darkhorse" >
>                        -< Detroit is better than Utah >-
 
    	Says who?   

    I guess you didn't see the game on CBS when they beat Utah by 32
    points.
    
    
    
    
    Hope this helps,
    O_J

    What it would look like with no conferences.  It poses some interesting
    first and second rounds games.  Such as NY-Philadelphia in the first
    or Utah and San Antonio in the second.  
    
    I've put my guesses below, just to show what *could* happen under
    these situations.
    
    LA           	----  LA                         
                            |----
    Houston    		----     | LA
                                 |----
    NY                  ----  NY |    |
                            |----     |
    Philadelphia        ----          | PO
                                      |----
    Portland            ----  PO      |    |
                            |----     |    |
    Milwaukee           ----     | PO |    |
                                 |----     |
    Phoenix             ----  PH |         |
                            |----          |
    Dallas              ----               | PO
                                           |---- Champ
    Detroit             ----  DE           |
                            |----          |
    Indiana             ----     | DE      |
                                 |----     |
    Chicago             ----  CH |    |    |
                            |----     |    |
    Boston              ----          | SA |
                                      |----
    Utah                ----  UT      |
                            |----     |
    Seattle             ----     | SA |
                                 |----
    San Antonio         ----  SA |
                            |----
    Denver              ----
                                
    
    
                             ^^    ^^    ^^
    			     ||    ||    ||
    			  5 west 3 west 2 west
    			  3 east 1 east 0 east
    
    The Wizard

    
    	re: .167
    
    	sorry, missed that game.  I just keep reminding myself which
    conference the two teams are in when I have a doubt at to whether
    one is better than the other.  hope this helps,
    
    sean

    And I also keep reminding myself the record Detroit has against Western
    teams.
    
    
    Hope this helps,
    O_J

    Its nice to see you coming around sean!  Last year the Bulls were only
    a problem until Detroit decided to win.  Lets face it stop Jorden and
    you stop the Bulls.  If the Bulls are ever going to win anything this
    must change.  Nobody ever stops M.J. but the pistons do a better job 
    then any other team in the NBA.
    Utah as good as the Pistons what a joke.  They may be in some areas 
    but other then Malone they have no other forwards.  Utah has no depth
    nor do they have a center that can score.  
    larry

    I totally agree.Utah is strong but they won't beat the Lakers because
    thay have NO depth.While Detroit has 10-that's right!10 people who can
    contribute.That's why Utah would have no chance in a playoff series
    with the Mashers from Motown.
    
    
    
    O_J

    
    You are right about one thing, Larry. There is nothing I can say to 
    change your mind that the West is superior to the East this year. I'm
    not an optometrist, I can't correct tunnel vision. I don't see how you
    can claim NY can win it all. They can't beat any of the top teams. They
    are now 5-18 (may be off by one) vs. teams with a .600 or better
    winning percentage. Chicago may be a one man team but they are still
    the 2nd best team in the East.
    
    
    RE: Celts fans
    
    What is the word on McHale? I heard he injured his knee last night.
    
                                                   HOOT
    

    The only team that can beat Detriot is the 76ers and MAYBE Chicago.
    
    But when Sean talks about the Jazz being in a tougher conference,he
    brings up an interesting point.Does that mean that last year's
    Cleveland Cavs were better than the Lakers??They played in a tougher
    Division and conference and had an identical record.Obviously not.
    That's why he's wrong.
    
    
    
    O_J
    
    
    
    

    Re Sean:
    
    The top 16 teams - right now Houston is #17.  they trail Seattle
    and Dallas for the final playoff spot.
    
    This is a futile arguement, guys.  O_J and Larry are Piston  folks,
    obviously, so they aren't going to accept any other opinions.
    
    Having lived in the East, I know about the "west is always weak"
    arguements, but having seen the Western teams all year, I think
    the east coasters don't give the Portlands and Utah's the right
    respect.  Oh well...
    
    JD

       Kevin played last night Hoot. Hit a 3 again.
                                   Denny

	okay, I give up, could someone tell me why Detroit's winning
    percentage is lower against the West than the East if the East is
    infact tougher??  once again, tunnel vision strikes.
    
    	I think Detroit's refusal to accept Chicago as a team that could
    possibly beat them epitomizes their arrogant cockiness.  Sure, the
    third or FOURTH best team in the east could beat them but NO WAY
    could the second best team.  Wonder what Detroit fans would be saying
    about the Bulls if they were in the Atlantic division...
    	
    sean

>    I totally agree.Utah is strong but they won't beat the Lakers because
>    thay have NO depth.While Detroit has 10-that's right!10 people who can
>    contribute.That's why Utah would have no chance in a playoff series
>    with the Mashers from Motown.


	Gee, is it just me, or does anybody else count only 8 Pistons that
really contribute meaningful minutes. Rodman, Edwards, Laimbeer, Dumars,
Thomas, Aguirre, Salley, and Vinny Johnson. And the Microwave, .406 FG%, has
been leaking radiation all year! :-)

	Bedford, Henderson, Hastings, & Greenwood (all < 8 Min/game) do nothing
but keep the bench from blowing away. 


	And to however made reference to Detroit's 32-point win over Utah,
history shows that one big blowout doesn't predict the winner of a 7-game
series. Remember the Celtics (and Scott Wedman) destroying the Lakers by 
about 40 points in Game 1 of the finals. Guess who won that year.

	I'm a diehard C's fan, but I'll have to admit the Western Conference
is far and away better than the East. Detroit is still the team to beat however.

JimH


 

    Okay, Okay I am agreeing that the West is up and coming and this years 
    stats reflect there supremacy.  But in order to prove true dominancy the
    two conferences would have to play each other more then twice a year.
    But they don't, and there are still significant differences in playing
    styles between the two leagues.  I still think that the best team is
    still in the east though.  I will still stand by my "west is
    predictable"  statement and I don't think there is a team in the west
    that can take the pistons in a series.  But there are three teams that
    have the potential and thats more then in the east.  The west is not
    that much better though with the 6ers win last night didn't Detriot
    tie for leagues best record.
    Larry  
      

    Larry, I realize that you are relatively new to this conference, but
    the one thing that is a tradition here in SPORTS is that, you never
    ever concede anything, no matter how much you are convinced or proven
    wrong.  You always fight your side to the death, and make up all kinds
    of BS to keep the bogus argument going.  These things are called
    FACKS(tm) and DASTISTICKS(tm).  Don't leave SPORTS without 'em!
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    H'awk

    Sean...
    
    Maybe because back when they were struggling early in the year was
    the time of their Western road trip? (Beat the lakers, lost to Seattle,
    Clippers, etc...)  See if they would lose to the Clippers in LA right
    now?
    
    I'd like to see those figures since January 1 and see which teams 
    wound up where....

--- NOV ---
 3 WON  106 103 NEW YORK
 4 WON  95 93 at WASHINGTON
 7 LOST 114 117 at CHICAGO
 8 LOST 74 95 at INDIANA
10 WON  125 121 at ORLANDO
11 LOST 84 88 at MIAMI
15 WON  130 94 MIAMI
17 WON  106 79 MILWAUKEE
18 WON  103 86 BOSTON
21 LOST 96 103 ATLANTA
24 WON  101 82 CLEVELAND
26 LOST 82 102 at PORTLAND
28 WON  93 81 at SACRAMENTO
29 WON  111 103 at PHOENIX

--- DEC ---
 1 WON  108 97 at LA LAKERS
 2 LOST 95 120 at SEATTLE
 6 WON  115 107 WASHINGTON
 8 LOST 101 107 at PHILADELPHIA
 9 WON  121 93 INDIANA
12 WON  121 108 at DENVER
13 LOST 79 83 at LA CLIPPERS
15 LOST 91 94 at UTAH
16 LOST 92 104 at GOLDEN STATE
19 WON  94 77 SEATTLE
22 WON  96 90 at NEW JERSEY
23 WON  106 100 ORLANDO
27 WON  99 82 at CLEVELAND
29 LOST 85 99 MILWAUKEE
30 WON  117 106 NEW JERSEY

--- JAN ---
 2 WON  115 113 at ORLANDO
 3 WON  84 80 LA CLIPPERS
 5 WON  122 99 INDIANA
 6 WON  117 106 NEW YORK
 9 WON  100 90 CHICAGO
10 LOST 97 104 at BOSTON
12 WON  97 86 MINNESOTA
13 WON  111 106 PORTLAND
17 LOST 108 112 at PHILADELPHIA
19 WON  125 118 GOLDEN STATE
21 LOST 97 107 LA LAKERS
23 WON  107 95 at CHICAGO
26 WON  107 103 PHOENIX
27 WON  85 83 at MINNESOTA
30 WON  112 95 at ATLANTA
31 WON  133 109 WASHINGTON

--- FEB ---
 3 WON  105 100 at CLEVELAND
 4 WON  115 83 UTAH
 6 WON  105 96 CLEVELAND
 8 WON  104 101 at MILWAUKEE
13 WON  106 96 DENVER
17 WON  97 79 at MIAMI
19 WON  94 85 MIAMI
21 WON  140 109 ORLANDO
23 LOST 103 112 at ATLANTA
25 WON  98 87 at NEW YORK
27 WON  106 102 HOUSTON

--- MAR ---
 1 WON  99 85 at WASHINGTON
 2 WON  115 112 PHILADELPHIA
 4 WON  111 105 INDIANA
 6 WON  101 91 SACRAMENTO
 9 WON  99 95 at NEW JERSEY
11 WON  98 88 at CHARLOTTE
15  730 SAN ANTONIO
16  830 at CHICAGO
18  700 DALLAS
20  830 at MILWAUKEE
22  830 at HOUSTON
24  830 at SAN ANTONIO
25  800 at DALLAS
28  730 CHARLOTTE
30  730 at BOSTON

--- APR ---
 3  730 BOSTON
 5  800 at ATLANTA
 6  800 MILWAUKEE
 8 1200 at CLEVELAND
10  800 at NEW YORK
11  730 NEW JERSEY
13  800 ATLANTA
14  730 ORLANDO
19  730 PHILADELPHIA
20  730 at INDIANA
22  100 CHICAGO

    JD, I guess Larry proved you wrong.

    Gerald Henderson is a proven veteran who has given them a lot of
    stability in their guard rotation.William Bedford is a guy that has
    been trouble for some teams but has played very well for Detroit.
    
    Anyhow,all I'm saying is these guys can contribute when asked to do so
    and have at given times.
    
    
    
    
    O_J

    Ah yes, Gerald Henderson.  I bet he'd look good in Celtic green!
    
    :-)
    
    H'awk

>    Gerald Henderson is a proven veteran who has given them a lot of
>    stability in their guard rotation.William Bedford is a guy that has
>    been trouble for some teams but has played very well for Detroit.

And you can be sure that in any big and/or close games, both
Henderson and Bedford will have a DNP-CD next to their
names in the box score.  The aren't part of any mythical
10 man rotation the Pistons are using.  They've played bit
parts this year, mostly in blowouts.  

Dan

I'd have to disagree with you O_J.  Read the Pistons' boxscores.  Unless it's
a blowout, they stick to the 8-man rotation.  It's not like last year where
they regularly played 9 guys.  There's nothing wrong with going with 8 guys.
In fact, I think that's about the perfect number for the playoffs.  Henderson
would be OK to fill in if one of their guards got hurt, but they don't play 
him night in and night out.  Bedford?  Come on.  Get real.

Laker_Ken

	The only time I've seen Bedford contribute this year, was to a Celtics
win. Dailey sent William in for a second Celtic FT Attempt, in the closing
minutes. All he had to do was block McHale off the boards. Instead McHale got
the rebound and Bedford fouled him!!!!

JimH

    re .187
    
    Okay fine,than they have a nine man rotation.
    
    
    
    O_J

	Sorry O_J, I still count 8. Henderson averages 8 minutes a game, in
the games he plays. He's only played in 43 games this year...

JimH

    I guess you're right,as of now it's 8,but come playoff time they'll
    need his championship experience.
    
    
    
    
    O_J

    I got to agree with O_J on this one.  Gerald can and has been a
    asset for the Pistons.  During the playoffs his experience will
    be a plus.  The guy his good outside range and is capable of leading
    a team.  Mix that with playoff experience and he will be a significant
    contributor.  I'm glad he is on Detroits bench and that does make a
    nine man rotation.
    Larry

	Actually from what I've seen, I'm surprised that Henderson hasn't
played more for the Pistons. I agree that he *could* be a significant
contributor. So far he hasn't...

JimH

    You could say that about a number of *veterans* lanquishing on the
    bench.  Jay Vincent could be a great asset to the Lakers.  
    
    Could be's and might be's are like ifs and buts....
    
    Also, a few other teams have good 8 man rotations - I think Woolridge,
    Divac and Cooper aren't too shabby.  Mchale/Pinckney/Smith/Kleine
    aint to shabby either....
    
    JD

    There isn't a team in the league that wouldn't want a player with 
    Hendersons talents that deep into the bench come playoff time.
    I would much rather have a Gerald than a one Dimensional player
    like Orlando Woolridge.  
    Larry
    
    

    Henderson is insurance.  He gets minutes, I think he'll play in the
    playoffs, but it won't be a whole lot.  I don't think Bedford will
    see a lot of time, unless people get in foul trouble.
    
    -Walt

    Henderson will play alot because he's played for a winner.Period.
    The guy can play.People say he hasn't contributed,but that's becuase he
    hasn't gotten the time to do so!!!I beleive he will be content in
    sitting on the bench until playoff time when they call his number.
    
    
    
    
    
    O_J

    O_J,
    
    How often does a team not play a guy all year, then suddenly, come
    playofftime, crunch time, say - Hey, you at the end of the bench,
    get in there....I'll tell ya how much - NEVER.  Why would they all
    of a sudden need to use Henderson?  He's a nice ballplayer, he's
    a veteran - but like I said, other teams have the same type of guy
    - and Henderson won't play mucho minutes in the playoffs.
    
    Larry,
    
    Henderson has more worth than Woolridge?  Haw haw haw.
    
    JD

    
    
    Wrong,do your homework.When the Pistons aquired Henderson they got him
    because VJ was struggling.Daly said that Henderson was going to get KEY
    minutes come playoff-time.
    
    
    Oh, the Pistons won again last night and sport the best record in
    basketball.They beat the Spurs;you know,the team from the `far
    superior' Western conference.They led by as much as 16.
    
    
    
    later dudes,
    
    O_J

>    Oh, the Pistons won again last night and sport the best record in
>    basketball.They beat the Spurs;you know,the team from the `far
>    superior' Western conference.They led by as much as 16.
 
    	Remind me again, was this a home or away game?  BTW, how has
    Detroit done against Portland, Utah and SA away from home?  hope
    this helps.
    
    sean   

    Well,let's see,they beat the Lakers by11 in the forum,they haven't SA
    in SA yet,they've beaten Phoenix at Phoenix.They lost to Utah and
    Portland.So what's the point??You keep trying to prove that they're not
    as good as their record would indicate;right??As far as road/home
    goes,what is their record against .500 teams on the road??What is their
    record against Western teams??Well it's 17-6.Their road record is
    19-12.So again they've done better against the West than they have the
    East.Their record against the east a'nt too shabby either.That record
    is 31-9.People keep trying tosay this team isn't that great,yet they
    have the best record in basketball.Gee,how did they ever get to the
    championship last year???
    
    
    Silly me............
    O_J 
    
    
    
    O_J

    
    	BTW O_J, how did Chicago beat Detroit earlier this season at
    Chicago if they can't beat them?
    	
    	Also, Detroit's West record is WORSE than their east record.
    Take another look.  All I'm saying is give some credit to the West,
    there are several LEGITAMATE teams(I count 4-5) in the west that CAN
    beat Detroit.  This is not troo in the east.  Put Detroit in the
    West conference and they are just another Utah.  JMO of course.
    
    sean

    Explain their record against the West.When I said Chicago can't beat
    Detroit I meant in a playoff series.Look at the last two times they
    played.Jordan had 16 points in one of them.Correct me if I'm wrong but
    who has the best record in `90??They've beaten Chicago the last two
    times they've played.I know it's tough to face for some of you Detroit
    bashers that they're just as good as last year's team probably better.
    
    
    
    
    BTW-Explain their victory in LA??
    
    
    O_J

	O_J,
		Take a look at last night's Spur's-Piston's box score. Piston's
had 8 players with 22 minutes or more. Henderson played two minutes. Face it
he's a vetern player, but he's not contributing anything but cheerleading right
now. Unless somebody gets hurt, that's all he'll do this year....


JimH

    O_J,
    
    Explain their loss to the LA Clippers!
    
    Bret

    Explain when the Lakers got blown out by the Clippers.
    
    
    
    
    Hope this helps,
    O_J

    
    	OJ, explain Detroit's home loss to LA, which happened later
    on in the season when they were on a roll...
    
    sean

    	Explain to me just what the hell you guys are arguing about?
    I lost track.  8^)
    
    				/Don

>    	Explain to me just what the hell you guys are arguing about?
>    I lost track.  8^)
 
    	We're arguing whether Laimbeer is better than Akeem.
    
    sean   

    Re .208
    
    Wrongo.They went on a roll after that.Since then they've won 22 of
    23.They've had a 13 and 9 game winning streak sandwiched in between
    that.Like I said,you guys won't admit this team could very well win it
    all.IMO there are only 2 or 3 teams that can beat
    Detroit.Portland,Phoenix and the Lakers.Two of those teams don't have
    the experince to do it this year.They might win it,but I don't think
    they will.
    
    
    O_J

	You forgot Utah. 8^)

    Hope this helps
    
    
    O_J

    re: .204
    
      >> BTW-Explain their victory in LA??
    
    Explain their lose to LA Lakers in Detroit ??
    
    -- Ram Nori
    

    Geez, I thought I was the trouble maker... You guys can keep your
    LDUC's to yourself.
    
    Henderson gets time, but he's still insurance.  If VJ goes south
    again, they have Henderson.  If Dumars or Thomas gets hurt, they
    have Henderson.  If it goes to a game 7 and Thomas has 3 fouls
    the first 5 minutes, they have Henderson.  That's insurance.
    Ok, maybe motivation for VJ too, but not much else.
    
    Why is it so hard to think the Central division is as good as any
    other?  Dallas is a good team, but they hurt with Tarpley and
    Dantley out, right?  Cleveland had Nance and Daugherty out for
    a long time.  Now they're back, they beat the Lakers.  The Hawks
    have had no consistent line up all year.  Bulls had a new coach
    and new key players.  And with them playing each other, their
    records go farther south.  Sorry, for interrupting.  You guys
    can go back to the mudsling.
    
    Detroit differs from the West teams like Utah on one account.
    They're defending champs...  and only the Lakers and Detroit
    have been in the finals the last 2 years... All the West fans
    can downplay the Piston accomplishments all you want, but I
    would think a defending champion that has gotten over the fact
    that every team is now after them should get a little more respect.
    
    -Walt

    Re .215 
    
    Well when you loose your starting small-forward I think it would be
    difficult to win.
    
    
    Hope this helps,
    O_J

    
    	One problem, Aguire don't start.  hope this helps
    
    sean

    He did at the time... Rodman became the starter as a result of the
    Aguirre injury...

    Sean explain this:After the loss to the Lakers,without Aguire,they go
    into Chicago and beat the Bulls.Explain that??
    
    
    
    O_J

    	I doubt Aguire had anything to do with it.  He's a bad player.
    Chicago probably had a bad night.  It happens.  Please explain to
    me again how the #2 team in the east is not a team for Detroit to
    worry about... I bet Daly has a different view.
    
    sean

    I never said that Detroit shouldn't worry about them.BTW Chicago isn't
    the #2 team in the East,New york is.
    
    
    
    Hope this helps,
    O_J

    
    	re: .222
    
    	Insert foot in mouth, again.  Chicago just beat NY this week,
    and has the better record.  (40-21 vs. 39-23).  Keep tryin'
    
    sean

    Do your homework,buddy.If you know anything about basketball division
    winners get the #1 and #2 seeds.
    
    
    
    
    Need any water to wash down the foot???  8^
    
    O_J

    Walt,
    
    I don't think anyone is downplaying the Pistons - I think it is
    more of wanting certain folks to realize that their are some good
    teams out West.  All we ever hear is how superior the East is, and
    Sean has posted some records, and still gets crap for it.  The Pistons
    are defending champs, and are, arguably (as evidenced in here) the
    best team in the NBA.   Since they are the defending champs, in
    my book they are still the favs to win it all.
    
    O_J,
    
    How many minutes, per game, barring injury to a key player, do you
    honestly think Gerald Henderson is going to play in the playoffs?
    If he averages more than 6-8 minutes I'd be totally shocked.  You
    make it sound like Daly is all of a sudden going to play him 20+
    minutes because he has 'playoff experience' - but then again ALL
    the Piston guards have playoff and champeenship experience.
    
    JD

    Re:last
    
    I'm not saying he is contributing now,all I'm saying is that when they
    need him he'll deliver.
    
    
    O_J

>    Do your homework,buddy.If you know anything about basketball division
>    winners get the #1 and #2 seeds.
 
    	Did I say seeds?  yawn....

    No,you said the #2 team in the East and they're not.New York is.They
    may not have a better record,but they are the #2 team in the east-the
    team Daly would worry about the most;and the team that he would
    potentially he would meet in the conference finals.
    
    
    
    O_J

    You guys must be drinking an awful lot of coffee to keep this LDUC
    going at its current pace.  Take a break will ya!  :-)
    
    O_J, just be happy with the fact that the Pistons are the team to beat!
    There should be enough satisfaction there for you.  These guys seem to
    be dragging down the entire eastern conference, including Detriot (tm).
    Let 'em say what they want, the results will be in soon enough.
    
    					Steve

    re: .224
     
    May be they are two but if they are to meet the Bulls in the playofs, then
    Bulls have home court advantage. So, rank means nothing, except in the
    first round of playoffs. Hope this helps.
    
    -- Ram Nori

    	Does that mean I won??? 8^)
    
    	My last words on this subject.  In the past two years there
    has been a total reversal in the roles of the east and west
    conferences.  Today, Detroit has become the LA of the past.
    Everyone expects them to win the conference easily which they will.
    To disallow the inclusion of teams like Utah and Chicago in the
    same category as LA and Detroit is as unfair as to disallow the
    Milwaukee Bucks and Philadelphia 76ers of the past when Boston and
    LA were so dominant.  To ignore the potential threats of these teams
    is the equivalent of signing your death warrant.
    	O_J's refusal to accept Utah as a viable contender is very
    saddening. 8^) Although Detroit beat Utah at home +32, the fact remains
    that the series ended and tie.  Barring home court advantage I don't
    see the clearness in Detroit's supremacy over this team and several
    other teams in the West.
    	JMO of course.  I'm tired of arguing 8^) 

    The Bulls would NOT have homecourt advantage if they met.And yes,rank
    means a lot.The Division winners get homecourt over everyone else.
    Take for instance last year when the Cavs had a 57-25 record;second
    best in the conference.They would have had to go to NY against the
    Knicks.The Cavs were 5 games better than NY.
    
    
    Hope this helps,
    O_J

    	BTW, what happened to the 57-25 Cavs last year?  8^)

    
    
    Sean,
            
            I am tired of arguing to(Gee hasn't been 33 replies?8^).No I'm
    not ready to consider Utah as contenders to the THRONE.I think they can
    win their conference,though.I say this because of last year.Everyone
    thought they were going to beat the Lakers and they got swept by GS.So
    right now I think that Phoenix,Portland and LA are going to come out of
    the West.(one of them I mean)
    
    
    
    O_J

    	The Division winner would *not* get the home court over a 2nd,
    3rd, 4th, etc place team from another division if that team had
    a better record.  The Cavs, had they beaten Chicago, would've had
    the home court advantage over the Knicks.  I just wanted to give
    you guys something else to argue over.  8^)
    
    				/Don

    	O_J,
    
    	ok, I guess I can live with that 8^).  (man are my fingers
    hurtin'!)  Let this be a lesson to you other noters!! 8^)
    
    BTW, is the *game* on TNT tonight???  I hope I can watch most of
    it while watching the NCAA's..
    
    sean

    I don't think the game is on tonight.Too bad.....
    
    
    O_J

                                                                
    	TNT decided Yankee Doodle Dandy (in color!) would be more exciting.
    Oh well...
    
    BTW, anyone else seen the Minute Maid Orange soda commercial with
    Ewing and Wilkins??  I wish they kept the tape running at the end.
    Made me so mad I had to throw my foam brick at the the tv repeatedly.
    8^)  

    The game is on TNT tonight, Bulls-Pistons that is.  
    
    Walt, I agree with JD, nobody is taking anything from the Pistons
    or downplaying their championship.  They won it, they deserved it
    and are the team to beat.  But I have gotten real tired of this
    "the east is better than the west" nonsense.  Who cares who's 
    better?  The Pistons are currently the best, they have the best
    record, and are the champions until the Lakers take it back this
    year!  :^)
    
    Bret

    As long as you guys have toned down, I think everyone will acknowledge
    there are quality teams in both conferences.  Ok?
    
    Why did they beat Chicago?  Because they had to prepare for Chicago
    without Aguirre?  Because the Bulls didn't play as well as the Lakers?
    Who knows...
    
    I agree with JD.  Henderson won't see more than 6-8 minutes in the
    playoffs.
    
    -Walt

    	I thought the game would be on TNT (looked at the TNT schedule
    yesterday) but today I looked in the Globe and the TNT section just
    lists movies...  So is it on for sure?  thanks.
    
    sean

    Didn't AFC have a better record vs. NFC this year?

>   <<< Note 52.202 by BAUCIS::SAPP "Chocolate Thunder:The REAL Darkhorse" >>>
>    Well,let's see,they beat the Lakers by11 in the forum,they haven't SA
>    in SA yet,they've beaten Phoenix at Phoenix.They lost to Utah and
    
    Detroit beat the Suns at Phoenix early in the season when KJ was out
    hurt and the team was struggling.  It didn't surprise anyone here.
    
    Mike

    Gee I missed all this fun this morning?!
    
    I'm sure the Celts would drool over getting Henderson back if they
    could hide it from Red!  Maybe they can trade Red to Detroit for
    Henderson?
    
    Mike

       According to my paper the Pistons-Bulls game is on WGN.
                                   Denny

>    Didn't AFC have a better record vs. NFC this year?
                        
    	What?  Can you name the top 4 teams in the AFC without laughing?
    
    sean

    re: trade Red....
    
    What an excellent idea!  But, trade Red to the Lakers instead!!!!111
    Haw haw haw......
    
    And take Johnny Most with him!!!!1111  Haw haw haw.....
    
    :-)
    
    H'awk

    After the Pistons thrash the Bulls tonight,we can lay to rest who the
    beast of the east is.
    
    
    
    Haw Haw,  8^
    O_J

    My point was, I think (maybe I'm wrong) was I think the AFC had
    a better record in the regular season vs. the NFC, but when it
    was over, the NFC won it.  Did the regular season really matter?
    No... did it prove anything?  Not really....
    
    Now, apply this to west vs. east, and I think you can see the point.

    	re: .251
    
    	I'm still confused about that analogy.  Are you saying that
    the West's better record vs. the East does not matter??
    The difference between the NBA and the NFL was that the AFC had
    a better record against the NFC, but the NFC clearly had the superior
    teams.  Ultimately the conference with the superior teams won out.
    
    I'm probably missing the point, huh?  8^)
    
    sean

    RE: last few
    
    Besides, the fact is that the NFC won more games than the AFC
    by 28 to 24.  I posted this and many other cross conference things
    somewhere (probably the NFL note)
    
    The Wizard

    TASTE GREAT
    
    LESS FILLING
    
    TASTE GREAT
    
    LESS FILLING
    
    TASTE GREAT
    
    LESS FILLING
    
    TASTE GREAT
    
    LESS FILLING

    Just watched Detroit pound the Bulls.  Gotta admire the hell out of
    them, they're something else even if I do hate them.  They're playing
    mighty good ball.  Extremely tough mentally and physically.  It's hard
    to imagine any other eastern team beating them out of the finals.  Now
    a western team, we'll just have to wait and see...
    
    Bret

    Yep,the Pistons absolutely demolished Chicago 106-81.Get this;they
    outscored them something like 32-11 in the fourth quarter.Yeah they're
    another Utah.
    
    
    Haw,Haw....
    O_J

    Oh,another thing,the Pistons became the first team to clinch a playoff
    spot and are tied with LA with the best road record.
    
    
    
    
    O_J

    	Funny how O_J failed to mention Philly's loss to Chicago.  Guess
    it only works one way?
    
    	Lesse, Chicago beats NY, Boston and Philadelphia in the past
    two weeks and loses to Detroit.  I guess by logic they aren't the
    number 2 team in the eastern conference...
    
    sean

    My point was it really doesn't matter.... and arguing over which
    conference isn't worth it...

    Detriot can tie there longest win streak of season with a W in
    Milwaukee.  Then a western swing with three games Rockets, Spurs,
    and Dallas.  If Detroit can make it through the next four games 
    with the leagues best record then they should be able to keep home
    court the rest of the way.  They are playing extremly well!
    Larry

    re; .233
    
    I think you are wrong. If Bulls have a better record than NY and NY
    is ranked number 2, Bulls will have home court advantage. I read this
    somewhere in the Celts notes file.
    
    -- Ram Nori

    
    	You're right Ram, originally I thought that Chicago would get
    the #2 seed but remembered the divisional sectioning that guaranteed
    the #1 and #2 spots to the 2 division winners.  However, to be fair,
    the home court advantage goes to the team with the better record.
    If Chicago ends up with a better record than the Atlantic winner,
    they will be guranteed home court advantage at least up to the finals.
    
    sean

    Alright,Chicago beat Philly.All I know is that Detroit creamed Chicago
    by 25 points.So if they are the #2 team in the conference,that tells
    you how superior the Pistons are over everyone.
    
    
    
    
    O_J

    re: .263
      Or, how weak the rest of the teams in that conference are. :-)
    
    -- Ram Nori

    Sorry,Ram.Chicago is not a weak team;they're just no where near as good
    as the Pistons.
    
    
    O_J

    I'd rate the Lakers, Utah, Portland, and Phoenix head and shoulders
    over everybody in the eastern conference except Detroit.  Barring
    serious injuries, the Pistons should cakewalk through the conference
    playoffs.  The only team in the east that has a chance to beat them is
    Philly.
    
    Laker_Ken

    Boy that is for sure.  I have said it before Chicago is a good team but
    they will never be a contender until they can beat the Pistons.  
    Friday night the Pistons were Unstopable.   They beat chicago by
    out playing Chicagos bench.  After Jordan the bulls have no instant O.
    Larry

 
>    I'd rate the Lakers, Utah, Portland, and Phoenix head and shoulders
>    over everybody in the eastern conference except Detroit.  Barring
    
    
    Which is why Philly beat them and why Cleveland smashed them,right??
    
    The Lakers are better than all the teams in the Eastern
    conference except  Detroit but
    to say those four teams are heads and shoulders ahead of them is crazy.
    
    
    
    Outta here,
    O_J

    re: .269
    
    Why is it crazy ? Utah, Portland and Phoenix, so far have better record 
    than every team execpt Detroit in the eastern conference.
    
    -- Ram Nori

    
    	forget it Ram, Detroit fans *HAVE* to believe that the their
    conference is better than the West or else it ruins their credibility.
    It's pretty sad.  BTW, we'll see how Chicago does against Detroit
    in the playoffs (that is, IF Detroit makes it past the first round).
    Many smiles.
    
    sean

    
    	re: O_J
    
    	so tell me again what Detroit's record is against the top 3
    teams in the West?  hope this helps.
    
    sean

    Yawn...

    what's the Lakers record against Europe?  what's Detroit's record
    against the NFL?  is the AFC better than the NFC?
    
    

Re: Sean
    
    
    Yawn............
    
    What's the Lakers record against the top three teams in the East??
    
    
    Hope this helps,
    O_J

    Lakers against the top 5 Eastern teams:
    
    Pistons	1-1
    Nicks	2-0
    Bulls	1-1
    Sixers	1-1
    Celts	2-0
    
    Just a scosh better than .500, but hope this helps anyway O_J.
    
    Bret
    

    Wrong.The top three teams as of today are Chicago,Detroit, and Philly
    who moved into first.Their record against those teams are 3-3.Hope
    this helps.......
    
    
    
    O_J

    
    Lakers won't get past Phoenix, SA or Portland in the playoffs... so
    those who used the INJURY excuse last year, will have to come up
    with a new one this year...   The Lakers will not make it to the NBA
    finals...

    Boy, are you reaching washerWOMAN .....
                                
    I guess you feel that if the Cads won't make it, the Lakers won't
    eh ?
    
    Get a life.
    
    The Lakers ae the team to beat until one of the pretenders such
    as the Puns (Cleveland-West (tm)), SA (Phoenix-South), or the
    FurTrappers (Blazers) prove otherwise.
    
    But don't hold your (bad) breath .....
    
    Doc
    
    

    re: .278
    
    For that matter what's Detroit, Chicago and Sixers record aganist the
    top three teams of West ?  
    
    -- Ram Nori

    
    	Well, the one dimensional, undeserving of praise, unconsiderable
    playoff contending Chicago Bulls won again last night.   The only
    player on the team, (you know, bench player Stacey King) led all
    scorers will 24 as usual, followed by Pippen with 24 and Jordan with
    21 (i know what you're saying... them last 2 "Stacey King wannabee's"
    musta had a lucky night).  
    	Don't you just hate them one player teams?
                        
    sean

    O_J, I was just posting the Laker's record against the top 5, get that
    FIVE teams and not in order, so chill out a little.  You can get 
    statistics to prove whatever you want, and the win record doesn't
    mean a whole lot now does it?  All that matters is making it to
    the finals and winning, even if they lost all their games to the
    eastern teams.  So what's the point?  Your head I assume!  :^)
    
    Bret

    
    I wouldn't get too hopped up about two guys outscoring Jordan against
    the powerful Bullets. Seems like a good time to spread the wealth to
    me, i.e. against a bunch of stiffs.

    >I wouldn't get too hopped up about two guys outscoring Jordan against
    >the powerful Bullets. Seems like a good time to spread the wealth to
    >me, i.e. against a bunch of stiffs.
    
    
    No, it's a lousy time.  With Chambers hamstring hurting and Reggie
    Miller having a really off night, I needed Micheal to come up big for
    my rotisserie team.
    
    Dan

    Dan, I'm glad to see you have a Sun on your team :-)
    
    Mike_who_also_has_Chambers

    Bret,I was just replieing to Sean's statement on Detroit's performance
    in the West.I just shot him down by saying the Lakers are doing no
    better against the East.....
    
    
    O_J

    Detriot has 16 games left 8 at home and 8 on the road.  With last
    nights victory they tied there seasons longest win streak record.
    A victory in Houston tomarrow night will eclipse that.  There well
    on there way to beating last years won lost record.  They should 
    beat the rockets but look for trouble with the spurs.  Then its on
    to dallas.
    
    I'm proud
    Larry
    

    The game with the Spurs will be VERY intersting.Do you think they'd
    show this clash on TNT???
    
    
    
    O_J

    re .289
    My schedule says no.  I will see this game via satellite
    Larry

SPORTS!    

       	/Doc, yeah, the West.  It wasn't really a decision though, it
    was more like a givens(tm).
    
    sean

       No /Dock it was the East, definitely the East!
                                        Denny

    
    	sorry /Don.... to many do's and don'ts in this conference. 8^)
       
    	West is best.  East is least.  8^PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP!
    
    sean

       East is Beast,,,West is the Rest!
                                    Denny

    	So Denny, did you order a serving of crow for after the game
    tonight? 8^)
    
    sean

       What game's that Detroit-Houston?? ;^)
    As the old sage once said...Make no predictions,eat no crow!
                                       Denny

	Since I love eating crow:
    
    	Akeem will smother Edwards, Houston will apply a sticker dee
    than Sue Bee, Thorpe will tower over little bill and radman,
    Floyd will show Thomas who the premier point guard in the NBA is.
    Dumars will ask Daly if he can be traded to Houston during the post
    game aftermath. 8^)
    
    	Final score:  116-89
    
    many smiles,
    
    sean

   Piston fans think Shish-ke-bob is a flaming arrow through a garbage can.

Mike JN

    
    Piston fans think Sandinistas are a Pepperidge Farm cookie.
    
    -David Letterman
    

    Detroit is only going to lose one game on this road trip.......
    
    
    
    Hope this helps...
    O_J

    The Pistons lost last night 115-110.............
    
    
    
    
    Gee Sean,I guess thier season over now since their record against the
    West dropped to a "mediocre" 18-7.......
    
    
    Later,
    O_J

So O_J, when did you become a Pistons' fan?  

    Ken, I've liked the Pistons ever since Isaih came into the league.I've
    liked the C's ever since Bird came into the league.
    
    
    
    Hope this helps,
    O_J

How can you like a no-class, scum of the Earth, stab you in the back, spit
on your mother's grave, cheap shot, bad poet, bugger of a player like
Isiah?

    Because he's one of the best point guards off ALL-TIME!!
    
    
    
    
    P.S. How can you like a bunch of Pond Scum like the LA Lakers and a
    cocky self centered  slimy wore like Pat Riley ????
    
    
    
    
    
    Heh heh heeeeee
    
    O_J
  

    
    	hehe.... hope all you detroit fans got a hearty serving of crow
    last night!  munch munch!! heehehehehhheh!!!
    
    sean 8^)

    Hey, you win 12 in a row, you deserve a night off!  :-)
    
    H'awk
    

>    Because he's one of the best point guards off ALL-TIME!!

	Gee, thanks a lot O_J, I just spewed coffee all over my workstation!!!!
I had to double check to see if I was reading the Sports.Joke note!!!

	ALL-TIME my *ss!!! Hell I can think of 4 active point guards better than
Isiah - Magic, Stockton, KJ, and Porter. And in a year or two I'll add Hardaway
and Sherman Douglas!!!

	Thomas is one of the better point guards in the league, but please
spare us the ALL_TIME garr-barge'!!!!!


JimH

    

>How can you like a no-class, scum of the Earth, stab you in the back, spit
>on your mother's grave, cheap shot, bad poet, bugger of a player like
>Isiah?
    
    ain't it the troof!  No way is he one of the best point guards of
    all-time.  
    
    Pat Riley and some of the Lakers have more class than Detroit could
    ever dream of.
    
    Mike_who_is_a_Celtics_&_Suns_fan

	Thomas = college dropout who couldn't hack it then, and still
    can't hack it now.  love them fake injuries BTW (guess somebody's
    got to have a backup excuse)...
    
    sean

    Excuse me Sean,didn't Magic dropout of College??[yes]Didn't Jordan drop
    out of college??[yes].
    
    
    
    
    
    O_J

    The great point guards don't have to step on opponent's shoes to gain
    an advantage!

    	O_J, a good psychiatrist could probably help you out. 8^)

    Explain.

    Excuse me O_J, but aren't Magic and Air Jordan just a tad bit 
    better than one of the all time whiners, ie Isiah?  No comparison.
    Thomas is good, but nowhere near Magic and Jordan. 
    
    Thanks for the nice reply about the Lakers Mike, must have hurt
    to type that! :^)
    
    Bret

    I never compared Magic to Isiah.

    HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!111(tm)  I cain just picture Walt Ashe sitting back
    reading all this crap and having a good laugh (maybe even a
    fahrvergn�gen!)!
    
    Hey Walt, why don't you start a W.C. Detroit Pistons note so you cain
    discuss your favorite pro basketball team?  :-)
    
    H'�wk
    

	Hey O_J, how about that 10-deep bench of the Piston's Last night!!!
Henderson, Bedford & Co. really contributed alot in a tough, close fought
game didn't they.... :-)

JimH

    Yeah, H'awk, but it was a piston's fan who started this whole
    LDUCing with those *outrageous* comments and akkusations!! 8^)
    I'll settle for an apology.  8^)
    
    sean  
    
    
    
               <<< OURGNG::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS.NOTE;1 >>>
                 -< OURGNG::SPORTS - Digital's daily tabloid >-
================================================================================
Note 52.33             -Official W.C. Detroit Pistons note             33 of 326
PHILEM::SAPP "Get the point??Good,let's dance!"      10 lines   1-MAR-1990 10:42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Re .30 
    
    The Pacific division is very tough,but the Pistons are cakewalking
    through the BEST DIVISION IN BASKETBALL.
                
    hope this helps,
    O_J

    At the beggining of the season the Central was the best with
    Detroit,Miwaukee,Indiana,Atlanta and Chicago all seemingly 2 games
    between each other.Now,most/ALL of those teams have tailed of and the
    Pistons are in cruise control.I t seemed at the beggining of the year
    for a time these teams had identical records,but that has changed.
    
    
    
    
    
    O_J

Walt, don't say I didn't warn you.  You were feeling a little down that
Laker hamstrings got as much press as Piston wins, so you threw
open the doors and let Celtic fans come to your defense.  And I 
warned you of the pitfalls that bad decision could lead to.  And
here it is flourishing.  I suggest you try to impeach this guy or
just throw him off the bandwagon.

Imagine, a Celtic fan who claims to be a Piston fan.  Oh, that's rich.

Dan

>> I suggest you try to impeach this guy or
>> just throw him off the bandwagon.

>> Imagine, a Celtic fan who claims to be a Piston fan.  Oh, that's rich.

My sentiments exactly...........
    
    Ha Ha Ha Haaaaa!!!!!!!!
    
    O_J

    	There's old Tailgunner Dan trying to suppress someone's right
    to free speech again.  Tsk, tsk tsk...
    
    				/Don

    >HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!111(tm)  I cain just picture Walt Ashe sitting back
    >reading all this crap and having a good laugh (maybe even a
    >fahrvergn�gen!)!
    
    >Hey Walt, why don't you start a W.C. Detroit Pistons note so you cain
    >discuss your favorite pro basketball team?  :-)
    
    Sigh... it was good for me too...I'm tired of this sh-uh stuff.....
    you have GOT to be kidding me...
    
    re: Isiah=dropout... he has his degree, does Magic?  Isiah went back and
    got it... he left school to provide for his family.  He did finish IU
    though.
    
    re: Isiah being a blah-blah-blah jerk... Gee Bird makes off-the-record
    comments and no one lays into him.  Teammates don't hustle, I don't get
    the ball enough... Oh, sorry, Larry is worshipped, sorry he's a winner,
    sorry....
    
    I don't think Isiah will wind up on the all-time list,but he is up
    there in the top 20 or so in assists already, and does have more than
    10,000 points in his career.  He'll probably wind up in Springfield.
    
    Pistons lost on the road... yup... I guess I'll take a 25-2 stretch
    instead of 25-1...
    
    re: Dan... I'm in quality control where I am... I like the Pistons,
    good or bad.  Just like I like the Tigers good or bad.  The diehards
    know better than to taunt the other conference or teams because we had
    to deal with teams with George Trapp, Eric Money and Leon Douglas. 
    I'll take the good right now, but all I asked for then and now is the
    same respect C's fans wanted when they were on top and the Lakers did
    when they were.  I don't say "in your face" when they win, and I don't
    sweat when they lose... I'll let their record the last 3 years speak
    for itself...LDUC'ing I can live without...
    
    I NEVER would have created 335 messages on them... there's not that
    much there to talk about. 
    
    You boys have fun...

    >I don't think Isiah will wind up on the all-time list,but he is up
    >there in the top 20 or so in assists already, and does have more than
    >10,000 points in his career.  He'll probably wind up in Springfield.


	Actually Walt, Isiah was #9 on the all time assist list before the
season started. With 600+ assists already this year he's moved up another
three places past Jerry West, Norm Nixon, and Tiny Archibald. He's a full 2,000 behind
Magic however. Yes, Isiah will be in the HOF someday. But there is a big 
difference between Isiah and the likes of Magic, the Big O, and Cousy.

	I can't argue that the Piston's are not a great team right now and THE
team to beat this year. But some of the crap coming from O_J's keyboard just
cannot be ignored....


JimH

    
    	Walt, I don't think the problem is Detroit getting respect.
    They convincingly won the WC didn't they?  They are tied for best
    record in the league and have mostly wrapped up first place in the
    east, haven't they?  They have the best defense in the league, no
    aruguments there.  I, for one, not liking them, have given them the
    same respect I gave Boston when they had a great team.  
    	As I stated way back in the .40's I definitely feel that there
    are areas of the game that Detroit could improve.  I believe that
    Bill Laimbeer is one of those areas.                           
    	I definitely feel that now Detroit is the team to beat that
    _some_ of their fans lack the respect of other teams that are in
    the position they were several years ago.  Chicago is one, Utah
    and Portland are others.  Why is it so inconceivable that these
    teams could not give Detroit a run for their money?  Is it because they
    never won it all before (or at least in a while?)?  Is that really
    a fair assesment?
    	
    	When I started noting in this topic I wanted to offer some insights
    into what Detroit could do to improve their game and what teams
    they shoud look out for.  I patted the real Detroit fans on the
    back for the great team they had and the great seasons they've had
    as of past.  I then started talking about the uprise of the western
    conference and the weaknesses of some of the Detroit players and
    BLAMMO, everything fell apart.  Maybe I misunderstood but is this
    topic only supposed to be used for positive assesments of the Detroit
    Pistons?
    	The LDUCing that has taken place since then has come about
    primarily because I'm sick of shelling out insightful comments and
    getting back sarcastic garabage about who the number one team in
    america is...  Respect is a two way street.
    
    anyways, enough said on my part, i'm outta here 8^)
    
    sean

    re .333
    
    Well said Walt, but there are flies (the size of vultures) all over you
    bud - I know better ! :-)
    
    re .334
    
    Jim, a lot of this anti-Isiah crap came from the brouhaha a couple
    of years ago with Bird. Plain and simple. I'm not going to trigger
    that rathole, because I could say some heartfelt things that would
    set some people off ....
    
    Anyhow, if it wasn't the Bird/Rodamn/Thomas deal, then it was the
    thing about Isiah "being selfish". Many said that he would never
    win a title until he became a "pure" point guard (whatever that
    is). Well, Zeke has a ring, and consecutive conference titles, and
    regardless of what anybody says, he made the adjustments in his
    game needed for the good of the team. 
    
    Anybody who knocks that simply has a "Facts-be-damned-I-have-an-axe
    to-grind" menatilty, and are not worth responding to.
    
    I've heard the Jihad's favorite God, Bob Cousy claim that Isiah
    isn't a 'real' point guard, because he shoots too much.
    
    1) Cousy was a 38% shooter from the floor - career - so I'd take
    his views on shooting with a grain of salt. A large grain.
    
    2) Thomas was often his team's best offensive option, so why not ?
    Nobody complained when Jordan played the point and did the same
    thing ?
    
    To wrap this up, I'll simply say that I don't think that Thomas
    is perfect, not by a long shot, not as a player, and probably as
    a person. Who is ? 
    
    But he is one of the best in the game, certainly in the Top 5, Top
    7 at worst. It isn't his fault that he's so talented, that he can't
    be cubbyholed the way many would like to.
    
    DrM

>>	I can't argue that the Piston's are not a great team right now and THE
>> team to beat this year. But some of the crap coming from O_J's keyboard just
>> cannot be ignored....


    My sentiments exactly.God forbid that ANYONE says Isaih is a great
    player.Hell,he doesn't even come close to players like Charles Smith of
    the Celtics.
    
    
    Oh well........
    O_J

    re: "Facts be damned, I have an axe to grind" mentality......
    
    Am I to believe this coming from one who lives for belittling the
    Boston Celtics in any way, shape, or form?  (ie: The Official
    Anti-Celtics Bash Note, Gooney-Bird, etc.)
    
    Maybe you should put an * on the notes that you want us to take you
    seriously, Dock.....  :-)
    
    H'awk

    re: .319
    
    BTW Jordon and Worthy went back to school to get thier degrees. Isiah
    while growing up wanted to just play ball and be on streets. 
    
    -- Ram Nori

    I'm not saying that they couldn't hack it,I was just replying to Sean's
    statement about Isaih not being able to handle it.
    
    
    
    P.S.-Worthy left school early also
    
    
    O_J

    
    	Oops, forgot one thing in my last note:
    
    	Concerning Isiah Thomas...  Since a few of my relatives are graduates
    of IU, I started following them back in like '79.  When Thomas came
    on the scene I thought he was a player of great potential.   I was
    very happy the year they won the championships, but was saddened
    to see Isiah leave during his sophmore year.  Isiah did go back
    and get his degree and I commend him for that.  Being a college
    graduate really has nothing to do with player ability so I shouldn't
    have brought that up.
    	Isiah is the type of player who you love to hate.  He is the
    most dangerous player on the court in a close game.  Put him in
    the top ten _clutch_ players of ALL TIME.  I don't know how many
    games I've seen grasped from the clutches of defeat by him.
    It just makes me mad that he always seems to do this against my
    favorite teams.
    	I'm not sure I'd put him in my top 10 current players list,
    however.  Partly because of the team he plays on (no outstanding
    stars) and partly because I think he lacks some abilities that other
    players have.  His is a great player, however.
    
    now i'm done,
    
    sean

    Sean, would you put Isiah above or below Hank Finkel in your alltime
    top 10 clutch players list?  :-)
    
    By the way, why does everyone call him I-zAY-ah?
    
    This still has me rollward (from the lasted ASABET::SPORTS):
    
    		Isiah + bow tie = Pee Wee Herman!
    
    H'awk

    >Jim, a lot of this anti-Isiah crap came from the brouhaha a couple
    >of years ago with Bird. Plain and simple. I'm not going to trigger
    >that rathole,..

	Well Doc, I didn't trigger either. So why bring it up? Its old news and
its got nothing to do with Isiah's merits as a point guard. So far I've called
Isiah one of the 5 best in the game today, given him proper credit for his standing in the all-time assist list (He's
top 10 in career steals BTW) and agreed with Walt that he'll be inducted into
the HOF someday. I just disagree with O_J's 'ALL_TIME' greatest statement.

	Assists should be designated the 'Official NBA stat of the 80s'. The
game evolved into a wide-open, fast-break style, that lends to more assists.
Isiah's contempory rival, Magic, has outclassed him. Younger point guards, like
Stockton, KJ & Porter will probably bypass Thomas' stats, given their careers
aren't shortened by injuries. The ALL-TIME tag is hard to justify, when he's
only 5'th best (IMHO) material in his era.

JimH

�    Jim, a lot of this anti-Isiah crap came from the brouhaha a couple
�    of years ago with Bird. Plain and simple. I'm not going to trigger
�    that rathole, because I could say some heartfelt things that would
�    set some people off ....

	There was no brouhaha *with* Bird.  Bird's only involvement in
the whole incident was to save Isiah's neck from the corporate sponorship
chopping block by backing Thomas' flip-flop statement.  Had Bird not done
that, you wouldn't see Isiah selling sneakers, soda or anything else on
a national level, because the corporate crew would've dropped Isiah like
a hot potato.  And let's not forget the statement Rodman made that Isiah
agreed with.  That Bird was just another guy if he wasn't white.  

	Not "Larry gets more publicity because he's white".  A statement
that would've been true.  But that he's just another guy.  Not a good
player, not an All Star, and certainly not a Hall of Famer.  But just
another guy if he were black.  I don't buy that.

	It was probably a statement made out of frustration, but as 
a professional, making tons of money because you're in the public
spotlight, you have to realize the uproar such a statement will cause.

    
    				/Don

    /D�n, have you nothing better to do than to be so sensible?
    
    :-)
    

    Re. today's point guards ....
    
    Isiah ranks significantly below Magic, Stockton, KJ, Fat Lever (OK, not
    a true point guard, but he plays on on TV), Gary Grant, and Terry
    Porter according to statistics used for the FBA.  Isiah is in amidst
    a group that includes Darrell Walker, Alvin Robertson, Mark Price, Tim
    Hardaway, Doc Rivers, and Muggsy Bogues, and ahead of another group
    that includes Nate McMillan, Vern Fleming, and Johnny Dawkins.  I would
    wageer that you could not get more than three or four of the guards in
    the top two groups straight up in a trade for Isiah.
    
    Here's a list of what I mean.  Isiah for the following:
    
    Magic - no
    Stockton - no
    Kevin Johnson - no
    Fat Lever - yes (Fat's older and has been injured)
    Gary Grant - no (unless medically proven unhealthy)
    Porter - no
    Walker - yes
    Price - no
    Harper - no
    Rivers - yes (medically questionable)
    Bogues - yes
    Hardaway - no
    
    So, as of right now, I estimate that Isiah is in the top ten point
    guards in the league, but not the top five.  And next year, he'll have
    to struggle to stay in the top ten, as Pooh Richardson, Sherman
    Douglas, and perhaps some rookies could move past him.
    
    NAZZ

>    most dangerous player on the court in a close game.  Put him in
>    the top ten _clutch_ players of ALL TIME.  I don't know how many
>    games I've seen grasped from the clutches of defeat by him.
    
    Like THE PASS, in Game 5 of the '87? Eastern Conference finals.
    One of Bird's ALL-TIME best assists ;-)

    re .344
    
    Slasher, I think that's exactly what Rodman and Isiah was trying
    to say, (ie. Bird gets more pub, because he's seen as a White Hope
    ....) but look at the compostion of the media. Not many players
    can say it, and be strong enough to expound on the issue and survive
    the media assualt. 
    
    I was frankly disappointed in Isiah's back down - esp. since many
    players (Kareem, Wilt, and Russell, even your boy Red A., to anme
    a few) have said simular things.
    
    The media s--tstorm will probably silence those who would make anything
    remotely resembling a meaningful provocative statement.
                      
    Anyhow, enough on that ....

    re .346
    
    Nazz, you've been too deep into the numbers. Isiah plays on a team
    that : 
    
    1) Stresses defense, hence few points will be scored in a Pistons
    game, hence fewer assist opportunties to be had.
          
    2) Has another point guard in Joe Dumars. And a damned good one
    at that. The Pistons start two point guards in reality. Yet another
    reason why Thomas will not rack up a ton assists any more.
    
    Hell, if you switched Stockton and Isiah, Thomas may average 20
    assists a game, because Stockton is a fine PG, but he monopoloizes
    the ball for Utah. KJ does the same for Phoenix.
    
    I truly believe that Thomas' game is a lot more respected by players
    than fans, and can not be quantifed into numbers as easily as you
    try to Steve.
    
    Hardaway is good, but he's no Thomas, not yet. Bogues is
    one-dimensional in true Doug Ross-fashion. Doc Rivers can't hit
    the open J consistantly, and got his a** kicked by Isiah in the
    playoffs two years ago. Darrell Walker ? HA !
    
    Nazz, you can't be serious ......

    re .347
    
    Oh, Mike, you mean Larry Clang, who choked the other week against
    the mighty Bullets ?
    
    Skip the ancient history Mikey - the only way Bird will be part
    of a championship is via time machine to the early 80's ....

    
    I might have bought Isiah's comments, and your opinion, too, DrM, had
    Bird not been the best player on a team that won three championships 
    in the decade.  Debate all you want about MVP's, All-Star appearances,
    etc, but you don't PR your way to championships.  Championships gain 
    you publicity, not the other way around.
    
    I don't think anyone can say that both Bird and Isiah were not great
    players of the 80's and maintain any credibility.  Let's take the
    blinders off and let a little objectivity shine through...
    
    glenn
    

    Spurs beat Pistons in San Antonio. Terry Cummings lead all scores with
    40, Robinson chipped in with 24 points and Srtickland dished out 19
    assists.
    
    O_J :
    Not counting this road trip Pistons were 18-7 aganist the Western
    Conference teams, where as Lakers were 19-6 in their first 25 games
    aganist Eastern Conference teams. Currently Lakers are 19-7 and Pistons
    are 18-9. So, best in the West (so far Lakers) has done better aganist 
    the East than the best in the East (Pistons) has done aganist the West.
    
    -- Ram Nori

    RE: Ram
    
    
    So what's your point??It only proves that the West is better than
    the East.I'm not going to deny that.Their record against the West
    is still pretty impressive in my book.
    
    
    
    
    O_J
    

    re: .353
    
    The point was to make you understand that West is better than East
    atleast this year. Guess what ? I am successful.  :-)
    
    -- Ram Nori

    Pistons loose to Mavericks in OT 98-96. This is Pistons third straight
    lose. I heard this on ESPN Sports Center (11:00PM), after Pistons won
    their game aganist Mavericks in Detroit, Mark Aguirre went into Dallas
    team bus and taunted Mavericks about their lose and showed them universal 
    sign of disrespect. Apparently the Mavs were waiting for the Pistons to
    visit Dallas, It was a gusty performance by the Mavs, in OT they tied
    the score with less than 20 secs, and with about 11 secs to go Herb
    Williams stole the ball and passed it to Harper for a 2 point lead.
    Pistons without no timeouts left could not make the shot go in the
    last 8 secs. Pistons deserved to lose the game not beacuse of their
    performance but what Aguirre did to the Mavs in Detroit. This Pistons
    team has some players without any class.
    
    -- Ram Nori

    Herb Williams and Derek Harper double-teamed Isiah with about 18
    seconds left.  Isiah tried to dribble through the double team, lost
    the dribble, and Herb Williams stole the ball.  He passed to Harper for 
    the easy layup.  Pistons have one final shot.  Isiah clangs up a
    3pointer with three seconds still left on the clock.  Pistons lose
    again.
    
    I stand by my statements regarding Isiah.  He's very good, but not
    great, and there are several other point guards I'd rather have.
    
    NAZZ

    
    Agreed, Nazz. You left out one point guard that I think is also better
    than Thomas, Michael Adams.

    re .336 - as I said, Isiah got his degree, so what's the point?
    .347 - don't bring up that pass anymore, please?  ha ha...
    .346 - Nazz, I'll admit I'm biased, but working with someone like
    Dumars, which has to be considered, here's who I would take over
    Thomas (who has been known to play some d too, but is overshadowed
    by Dumars)
    
    Magic - yes
    Stockton -  yes (because of age)
    Kevin Johnson - yes
    Fat Lever - no 
    Gary Grant - no (has potential, not there yet)
    Porter - yeah, but that's tough.  I'd have to see him more...
    Walker - no
    Price - no
    Harper - no
    Rivers - no (medically questionable)
    Bogues - no
    Hardaway - give him another year...
    
    
    I think he's one of the top 5 point guards, on a team that's not known
    of a "go to" type guy.  No real stars, just the team concept.  Granted,
    he's not in Magic's category, but I think he's a good player.
    
    Re Bird saving Isiah:  I still don't really see him in the same number
    of ads that you do Larry or Michael.  I know they're better players,
    but that despite the attempt to make things better, it hurt Isiah in
    the long run.

    
    The Pistons have go-to guy Walt, it's Isiah just ask him, better
    yet just watch him. Good guard one of the best when he's on but
    can be a detrimental hog to the team at times. 
    
    Everyone knows Dumars should be the go to guy....
    
    mike

    Not true... sometimes it's Isiah... sometimes it' Dumars, sometimes
    it's Laimbeer... I've even seen it go to Edwards down low... it's
    not a sure thing like Bird or Michael...

    
    Lever is not a point guard.

    
    Well Walt, I can only talk about what I see and anytime I have seen
    them trailing late in a game Isiah tries to take over unless of
    course someone else is hot. To his credit Daly will ride a hot hand
    until it goes stone cold....
    
    mike
    

>    < Note 52.305 by BAUCIS::SAPP "Chocolate Thunder:The REAL Darkhorse" >
>                            -< Probably the Spurs >-
>    Detroit is only going to lose one game on this road trip.......
>    
>    Hope this helps...
>    O_J
 
    sorry, couldn't resist.  8^)
    
    sean

    Dumars is out with a broken hand for next 4 weeks....is this true?
    

    re:  -< well? >-
    
    Don't be so pushy, Dee!  :-)
    
    H'awk

    He didn't play last night...

Dumars is out 4 weeks with a broken bone in his left hand:

DETROIT PISTONS - *Starting shooting guard Joe Dumars (broken bone
in left hand) missed Sunday's game and will be sidelined a minimum
of four weeks. *The extent of the injury was discovered in an X-
ray taken Monday. *Dumars had the injured hand placed in a cast but
has yet to be placed on the injured list. Rookie power forward
Anthony Cook, a first-round pick, signed with a team in Greece.

As for Lever, if he's not the point guard, who is?

j.

    There's your Henderson for insurance argument coming through I guess...

    opps....your right, sorry about that. Just was anxious to find out the
    facts and I knew you guys would have them. Good job
    
    
     

    And we will see Isiah's greatness, eh Nazz ?

    
    or lack there of, eh Dock?
    

    Isiah's greatness will be tested, for sure, but I think the
    key for the Pistons is how well Vinnie plays as a starter.
    He's not the ballhandler or the defender Dumars is, and I
    suspect he won't be up to the task.  Which means Isiah will
    put the burden on himself.  Isiah's numbers will be impressive,
    but the Pistons will never make it out of the East if Dumars
    is out of the playoffs.
    
    NAZZ

    Vinnie has had an off year too.
    
    Didn't Dumars break a bone in his hand a year or two ago?
    
    Mike

�    Didn't Dumars break a bone in his hand a year or two ago?
    
    Last year, same bone.

    Nazz, expect Henderson to eventually step in at starting guard,
    and VJ can come in off the bench .... I think Hendrson will definetly
    pick up a lot of the slack. I'd also exepct Mark A. to step up his
    scoring ...

    
    And we get to play them twice in the next week. Too bad I guess I'll
    **** the W's we're going to get.......
    
    mike

    re.376
    
    There you writing off the Pistons because one player goes out.  Well 
    I think that this situation will prove that the Pistons are not a ONE
    demensional team.  I think that the scoring will be picked up by
    another player or players.  Joe will be missed but the Pistons will 
    still be able to perform at a level far better then that of the likes
    of the Celtics.  Even with Joe gone the Pistons will be able to floor
    a better back court then any other team in the east.  Gerald will show
    his presence.  Don't look for the Pistons to falter because of this
    injury.
    
    Larry

    I doubt it.  Who is going to pick it up?  Aguirre hasn't been a threat
    since leaving Dallas.  Rodman & Salley don't know what score means.
    
    Dumars is probably the best all-around athlete/player, on both ends of
    the court, next to Jordan.  To say they won't miss him is amusing.
    
    Mike

�    I doubt it.  Who is going to pick it up?  Aguirre hasn't been a threat
�    since leaving Dallas.  
    
    Aquirre was the Piston's leading scorer the other night (against the
    Spurs I think).  He still isn't getting much playing time, is he?

    
    	As much as I hate to say it, I don't think Dumar's being absent
    is going to have too much of an effect on Detroit.  If anything,
    it is going to make them play harder and come playoff time when
    he comes back will give the team extra incentive to win it all.
    
    sean

    Agreed.

    Wasn't it last year that we were writing of the Pistons after Isaih
    broke his wrist.That was when we found just how GREAT of a player
    Dumars is.They seemed to rall y around him.I expect Isaih to come
    through.
    
    
    
    RE: Heiser
    
    I don't think Larry said that they wouldn't miss him;he just said that
    they can prevailif they play as a TEAM.
    
    
    
    
    O_J

    re : .381
    
    What's the matter with you O_J ? You are agreeing with Sean ! :-)... :-)
    
    -- Ram Nori

    Hard to believe isn't it!!!  8^)
    
    
    
    O_J

    
    	Guess it's too late to plead temporary insanity??
    
    8^)
    ^
    |__________________ Hey, who put those Piston bloo glasses on me???
    
    sean

    Lets talk about one man teams now with the set backs of both the Lakers
    and the Pistons.  I will bet that the lakers will miss Magic a lot more
    than the Pistons miss Joe.  That was shown last night by the whipping
    the lakers took from Portland.  Tonight the lakers play the Clippers
    and without magic look for a real close game.  On the other hand the
    Pistons play Charlotte and its time for the Pistons to start
    winning again.  The winner of the laker game is questionable but the
    Piston game is predictable.  What fate with Magics injury Detroit still
    has a shot at the leagues best record.  I don't know how bad Magic is
    hurt but without him they are not the same, not even close. If his
    ankle is any thing big look for Portland to overtake them fast.  Mean
    while Detroits got there hands full with there schedule playing the
    Celts,76ers twice and no Joe. 
    
    Should be exciting
    Larry  

    	Magic's loss is much more crippling than Dumars.  Detroit does
    not center it's play on one man, rather on who's hot at a given
    time.  This allows for more flexibility, such as when injuries occur
    or a player is having an off night.  This "rotation" of dependency
    is the key to Detroit's success, IMO.
    
    sean

    Magic will miss one game; Dumars is out for the season and part
    of the playoffs.  Which injury is more crippling??  C'mon, be real!
    
    Dumars is the heart and soul of the Pistons.  They are thin in the
    backcourt.  If they get Clevelnad in the first round of the playoffs
    and Dumars can't play, it will be a very close series, and I would
    not be surprised to see Cleveland win.
    
    NAZZ

    LA entertains Portland on Friday & Utah on Sunday.  How many games
    is Portland behind LA?
    
    Mike

    
    	re: Nazz
    
    	I disagree.  Dumars will be back for the playoffs and that will
    give the Pistons the extra lift to take the conference.  I still
    don't feel his absence is going to be that much of an effect on
    Detroit.  They should beat Boston twice.
    
    sean

    The playoffs are still a long ways away.  I agree that Detroit won't
    miss Dumars much for the short term (rest of the regular season), but
    where they'll need him the most, Conference Championship and Finals,
    will he be ready/prepared/100%?  Remember, Dumars was they key to the
    Pistons champeenship last year.  Given the advantage of not having
    Magic and Scott in the line-up, without Dumars, I'm not so convinced
    that Detroit still would've won it.......  [Please, no ratholes about
    last year's Detroit win/Lakers injuries/asterisks]
    
    H�wk

    Simply put, Magic is one of the greatest basketball players of all
    time.  Joe Dumars is a good player for now.  Kind of makes sense
    a team would miss Magic more.  Doesn't take a PHD to figure that
    out.
    
    JD

   <<< Note 52.394 by RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JO "He had hallugeon(tm) headlights!" >>>

    Simply put, Magic is one of the greatest(crybaby) basketball players of all
    time.  
 
   You left out one word!!

Hope that hurts!!!

Monty

 re:  .394
    
    You are just envious. That's the sentence to describe you.
    
    Hope it hurt !
    
    -- Ram Nori 

    It will hurt the Pistons in the playoffs... It will be a lot tougher
    to get home court advantage throughout the playoffs with Dumars gone.
    That affects the finals...

>    What would the Pistons chances be if they lost Dumars AND Isiah?
        
    	They'd still win the division most likely...  Microwave would
    be king of the sandbox, though.  8^)
    	
    	I still don't think Dumars loss is going to hurt Detroit.  I
    expected them to lose all 3 western games.  They were due.
    Watch for Detroit to kill Boston twice, finish 1 game behind LA
    and a rematch in the WC game, with a once again, heatlhy and raging
    Dumars.
    
    sean

    Answer = middle of the division, but would need to pick up a decent
    guard from somewhere... not a championship contender...
    
    See shade better than Atlanta now...

>    Answer = middle of the division, but would need to pick up a decent
>    guard from somewhere... not a championship contender...
 
    	Is that from the beginning of the season or now??????
    (this is KEY!!)  From here on without Isiah and Dumars they could
    probably make it to the conference finals fairly easy (whipping
    Cleveland/Atlanta and Boston).
    
    sean

    Answer = the same result as for the Lakers last year, a sweep in the
    finals, except the Lakers would have the broom.  This of course
    assumes the Lakers would make to the finals again which may or 
    may not be true.
    
    Bret

    	Answer.  Their backcourt would then only be slightly better
    than Boston's.  Michael Smith.  UUGGHH!  I cringe every time I think
    if him being the 13th pick.
    
    				/Don

    I thought about it, but I got a DEC league playoff game... I'll
    catch the end on sportchannel...
    
    My answer was based on from the start of the season... now, they
    shouldn't look back at the 76ers... if both went down..

    C's and Pistons at the Gahden!!!
    
    
    
    
    It's gonna be a
    war!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
                 O_J
    

So whom are you rooting for, O_J?

    Actually I was hoping for tie.........8^
    
    
    O_J

    re:.409
    
    That means you are not a true and loyal Celtics fan. Boy ! you are in
    trouble with the Celtics fans.  :-)
    
    -- Ram Nori

    Re: last
    
    Nah.I'm a loyal C's fan.......when they get rid of the old stiffs and
    learn how to play D like the Pistons they'll be more fun to watch.I
    just admire the Pistons because they're one of the best Defensive teams
    I've ever seen!!!!!
    
    
    
    O_J

    With a minute  and 13 seconds left the Celtics are up by 13 points!!!
   
    REK
    
    Listening to the game while noting...
    
    And have a nice day!!!

    The C's won 123-111!!Good win for the men in green,but they still suck 
    -:)
    
    
    
    O_J

    
    who's going to slow down that Philly express?

	Detroit's remaining schedule.. Doesn't look like Chicago is
    going to catch them.  Shouldn't lose more than 1 game looking
    at the schedule:
    
--- APR ---
 3  730 BOSTON
 5  800 at ATLANTA
 6  800 MILWAUKEE
 8 1200 at CLEVELAND
10  800 at NEW YORK
11  730 NEW JERSEY
13  800 ATLANTA
14  730 ORLANDO
19  730 PHILADELPHIA
20  730 at INDIANA
22  100 CHICAGO
                                                                 
    sean

    
    I see atleast 4 losses....
    
    mike

    This note has been quite for a while. It was a bad weekend for the
    Pistons they lost both the games they played, one at home and other
    on the road. Pistons have lost 6 of the 9 games they played without
    Joe Dumars, their leading scorer. Besides Joe Dumars, Dailey has a
    problem with John Salley. In the game aganist the Cavs, Salley wasn't
    too pleased with his coach and looks like he had few choice of words
    for his coach. Salley didn't see much time in the game and also in the
    limited time he was on the court, Salley was there only physically.
    
    -- Ram Nori

Hey O_J, if the Lakers are a mediocre team without Magic Johnson, what
are the Pistons without Joe Dumars?

Laker_Ken

    The Pistons are better than the Lackers without Joe(and LA doesnt have
    Magic)Face it,Magic is more important to the Lakers than Joe is to the
    Pistons.
    
    
    
    You got help on this one,son.
    
    O_J

    Correction:Losing Joe is WORSE than loosing Worthy..........
    
    
    
    
    Later,
    O_J

    Who was it that said Dumar's loss wouldn't affect the Pistons?
    
    As I said in here before, they'll continue to slide without Dumars and
    won't recover in time for the playoffs.  Cleveland proved yesterday
    that they can beat them.
    
    Mike

    
    Price sure proved Nazz'z points about the little princess (tm).....
    
    ;^)
    
    I'm almost enjoying these poundings the pistons are taking as much
    
    as when the Lakers get shallaced...
    
    mike

>           -< Pistons/Bulls Eastern Finals the way it will be... >-

    	The fine line between fantasy and reality... 8^)      

    Re. .420 
    
    Well O_J, I see that you're not facing up to it, eh.  Can't admit you
    were off base in your previous assessments of Detroit.  Perhaps a
    memory refresher is in order.  I never disputed that Magic is more
    important to the Lakers than Dumars is to the Pistons.  However, prior
    to the Pistons' recent slump, we heard all kinds of boasting from you
    about how the Pistons are different than any other team in the league
    because of their depth.  You said that they didn't rely on one guy and
    therefore could survive the loss of a starter better than other teams
    could.
    
    Well you're wrong.  Sure, you can throw Vinnie Johnson into the lineup
    and he'll score some points, but this group ain't the interchangable
    parts team you've been dreaming about.  The past two weeks have shown
    just how much they do depend on Dumars to run their offense.  And
    where's this team that goes 9 deep we heard so much about from you? 
    You would think that with Dumars out, Henderson would see some real
    significant time.  Well perhaps Dailey didn't consider Sunday's game
    against Cleveland very important then because Henderson only saw 5
    minutes of PT.  More likely is that Dailey did, of course, realize how
    important the game was and therefore decided to use Henderson
    sparingly.  Why?  Because Henderson has not seen much action all
    season, has not been a regular contributor.  This year Detroit does not
    go 9 deep; they go 8 deep And as the past two weeks have shown, when
    they lose a key starter like Dumars, they suffer as much as any other
    team that loses a key player.
    
    Laker_Ken

    Give me a break.I never said that the Pistons wouldn't be affected
    if one player in their lineup went out.I said they could survive
    a lot better than the Lakers.Get some cold,hard facts to back up
    what you say before making comments like that.Lets not light any
    fuses for effect.
    
    
    O_J

Dumars returned last night in a win at New York. He looked good on D but
was obviously off his offensive game: 2 points in 23 minutes.

TTom

    Ah, O_J, perhaps Ken doesn't have the exact quotes, but IMO, he
    summed up what yo were saying very well.  For instance - where has
    Henderson been - you know, the guy you claimed would see significant
    time in the playoffs or if a key player went down?
    
    You give no answer - just a "I never said that".
    
    JD

    SO THERE, BABY!!

    RE .428
    
    He will see signifigant playing in the playoffs with Dumars hurt.He
    already has gotten time with Dumars out,so what are you talking about??
    
    
    
    O_J

    re: .430
    
    O_J, Henderson didn't get significant playing time at all. Unless if
    you consider playing 5 minutes is significant in Dumars absence. Last
    night he was just stuck to the bench. I agree the season is not over
    but for Hendeson it was over even before it started.
    
    -- Ram Nori
    
      

    RE:LAST
    
    Over before it started??Whatever the hell that means...........
    
    
    
    O_J

>    Over before it started??Whatever the hell that means...........
    
    It means that they needed him to keep a spot on the bench warm for
    when Princess needed to catch her breath!
    
    hope this helps,
    Mike

    Need I say more??

	Hey O_J, come on admit you were wrong about Henderson playing
significant minutes if injuries hit. Hell during Dumars absensce, the Pistons
even played Aguirre at guard before giving Henderson more minutes!!!!!

JimH

Hey, don't blame O_J.  He was right about Henderson.  It's not O_J's 
fault that Chuck Daly doesn't realize his team goes 9 deep.  Hell, 
make that 10 deep; I forgot about William Bedford.  Yeah, that's it.
This team is 10 deep.  Hey, somebody tell Daly!  He thinks there are
only 8 guys on the team!  :)


Laker_Ken

    Talk about heirs to the "Ralphie Stiff" Award, Bedford has to be a
    favorite.
    
    Can't believe Phoenix picked him 6th in the first round.
    
    Mike

Unfair comptetive advantage: Didn't Bedford do drugs?

TTom

    re: .438
    
    Hey Mike, Phoenix picked Easy Ed 5th in the first round, didn't they?
      
    -- Ram Nori

A stellar crop that year, huh?

Bias, died on drugs.
Washburn, banned for drugs and picked up against just
last week.
Bedford, suspended for drugs.  At least he's playing again.

A lot of righteously upset Celtic fans have said "What if Bias
had lived?"  Well, there's two distinct possibilities.

Dan

>    Hey Mike, Phoenix picked Easy Ed 5th in the first round, didn't they?
      
    -- Ram, he was the 9th pick in another year (other than Bedfords year).

    Re: .437
    
    Well said.

    
    Hawks beat the Pistons 115-111. There were 7 Ts on Pistons including
    3 for illegal defense, the other Ts were on Rodman, Johnson, Aguirre
    and the gangster Daly. With the loss Pistons are only a game ahead of
    the Bulls in the loss column
                                
    -- Ram Nori

    
    Pistons beat Magic 111-107. This will not come as a surprise but Bill
    Laimbeer took a cheap shot at Jerry Reynolds. I mean it was a cheap shot
    with an intent to hurt, he was ejected and so was Reynolds. Bill
    Laimbeer has been getting away with murder. This guy should be banned
    from playing basketball for a while. 
    
    -- Ram Nori 

    Yawn...

Go ahead, Walt, deny it.  Deny that Daly is a gangster.  Everybody in the
league knows he is.  :)

       He even wears suits like a gangster would wear. He's jist too
    skeerred to wear the black shirt and white tie!
                                          Denny

    
    Hey Walt, was truth that bitter ? I don't blame you I would yawn too if
    my team player are thugs like yours.
    
    -- Ram Nori

    Nice try... call me next time Magic goes after KJ... I think
    Laimbeer and Magic have the same number of ejections this
    year...
    
    At Kurt Russell can sell the Pat Riley look as a gangster instead
    of the way he did in Tequila Sunrise....
    
    Ok, I officially deny Chuck has any underworld ties... happy?
    
    -Walt

  >>                            -< Truth Is Bitter >-
    
  >>  Hey Walt, was truth that bitter ? I don't blame you I would yawn too if
  >>  my team player are thugs like yours.
    
  >>  -- Ram Nori
    
    
    First of all,your English is horrible -:) (I've been dieing to say that
    for ages ! Was truth that bitter ? Not to nitpick or anything..........
    
    
    As for the comment I have the same sentiments as Walt......
    
    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
    
    
    
    
    `Nuff said
    
    O_J

    
    Hey O_J, would you quit picking on my typos ? You not only have to
    learn your mother tongue ( why don't you read some of your own notes ?)
    but have to grow up also.  Just to remind you, you were told in the
    Lakers Conference file to learn how to spell.  Hey, my English can not
    be any worse than yours. 
    
    -- Ram Nori
    

Cool it, guys.  This isn't the grammar conference.  These comments belong in
mail.

j.

    > These comments belong in mail.
    
    Or, in the Laker conference.  :-)
    
    H�wk
    
    P.S.  Nori, you started this bull.  My guess is that you've recently
          turned 18, no?

�Cool it, guys.  This isn't the grammar conference.  These comments belong in
�mail.

Jeff, I don't mean to nitpick, and you are correct about personal differences
being best handled by mail, but I think this raises an issue here.

Quite often, people don't realize that someone writing in this file
might be writing from the other side of the world, or be in this
country on an international relo.

Three years ago I had to attend a training course in Munich.  I learned
a very important lesson there.  All of the instructors, who were German
engineers, taught the course in English.  Okay, it wasn't the "King's
English", hell, it wasn't even close to our slang, but to have the
balls (excuse my language) to stand up there and give a course in 
a language not your own native tongue is extremely commendable.

So, before anyone goes picking on anyone else's English, especially
people who are in here by someone else's good graces even though it's
not exactly the letter of the law, they might just stop and think
about the fact that maybe that person's native tongue isn't english.

Now I'll get off my soapbox...

'Saw

    re: .455
    
    Thanks ! Actually writing English is not a problem at all but typing
    is a big problem, and I do make mistakes while typing. I didn't realize
    that noters like O_J, do take advantage of others mistake to insult them.
    
    -- Ram Nori

    Yeah, but Daly STILL isn't a gangster... (or is capitalizing in the
    middle of a sentence bad grammar?)... I agree with Hawk, and no,
    I'm not getting in the middle of this...
    
    -Walt

    If I've ever offended anyone by being the Apostrophe Police (tm),
    I apologize.
    
    John

    Its' about time, Mad Dog.  I accept you're a'pology.
    
    :-)
    
    H'�wk

    
    what's a matter John feeling quilty over the beachball?  ;^)
    
    Cmon now John your too nice of a guy to offend anyone....
    
    mike

Mad Dog, don't forget, you have the appellation Police there.

Now, Police might "offend" someone, but it comes with the terroritory.
For example, I am heartily insulted when a State Trooper pulls me
over for speeding, but quite honestly, he has the right, and thus
my being insulted doesn't enter into it.

But, if you were just plain John Hendry, and didn't have a Ninja
Action Figure, and didn't carry a_apostrophepolice badge, why then,
I'd be right insulted....

Chainsaw

    I have zero guilt whatsoever over the beachball.  It got what it
    deserved.  I was just apologizing in case I'd inadvertently insulted
    someone whose native language isn't English.
    
    The beachball crusade continues!
    
    The 'Police

I didn't mean to indict the entire non-English speaking world.  My point was
that childish name calling belongs in mail and Ram and O_J were engaging in
that.  I'm just getting a little fed up with all the crap cluttering this
conference.

j.

    
    That a boy John glad to hear, the ninja figures should sell like
    wildfire.....
    
    mike

    Speaking of Ninja figures, I can think of 4:
    
    The Apostrophe Policeman, probably dressed in a policeman's uniform,
    holding an English Grammar book.
    
    The Beachball Basher, big teeth, big claws.
    
    The "stud", dressed to kill, a babe on each arm.
    
    The statistician, carrying a bookbag (holding crucial sports research
    material), a calculator on the belt, nerd pack in the shirt pocket,
    heavy thick glasses.
    
    Names?  Costumes?  Fire away!
    
    John

I'll tell ya, it'll be great:


	The scene:  Tigermania, August 4, 1990


	In the Centerfield bleachers the Wave starts.  Suddenly a 
	figure in a black ninja suit, white crash helmet with
	a_apostrophe on it runs and crashes head-on INTO the wave.

	Bodies fly, the Wave dies.

	The Wave starts anew.  Again, the figure in black dashes
	his body against the Wave, smashing it to smithereens...


	John Hendry, Wave Killer Extraordinaire....

re .466:

	John, don't forget the one I just mentioned...

	Black Ninja Suit, White helmet w/ apostrophe.  the Wave Killer!

    	The 'Vane.  Has polyester cap with velcro patches of every team.
    
    	Giantsmaniac.  To gruesome to describe.
    
    				/Don

    The Bambi-Blaster: Red and black plaid hunting coat, orange "Fudd"
    cap, green wool pants, Sorel pac-boots, Winchester Model 94 in a
    .30-.30.  Add the commemorative Ninja head-band and voila!
    
    The Schneider Daid Haid: Red and White bandanna 'acid helmet', Greatful
    Dead tour t-shirt, tie-dyed jams, sandals, colored socks, wire-framed
    glasses, long hair, beard, frisbee under one arm, bong under the
    other.  Add the commemorative Ninja logo on the acid helmet, and
    voila!
    
    Mark.

    The Chuck Santos Hangover: New York Port Authority Bag Lady outfit
    w/A&P shopping cart including cardboard mobile home.  Add the
    commemorative Ninja logo on the moth-eaten Jets ski hat and voila!
    
    :-)
    
    H�wk 

    Dumars ripped out the valve stem from the game ball the other night
    during the second quarter.  You shoulda seen that crazed look in his
    eyes.  Shocked the hail outta everybody.  He later walked off with a
    different babe than he went to the game with.....
    
    :-)
    
    H�wk

      The Ninja Stare_Down doll, a Doc Midnight doll with sunglasses 
      ripping apart "New Kids on the Block" dolls.

Chuck

    I likes Chuck ... I likes ..... I will be dressed in all black of
    course ...

WHOA!!
I AM HEAVILY ROLLWARD!

	You guys are a kick. This is beginning to look like the Broncos Note!
I usually pay no attention to this note (except for occasionally wishing the
Detriot(tm) Basketball team would move to Albania).

		WHAT has happened to you John Hendry?!?!?

	The once staid and reserved statistician is `bashing' in a conversation 
that has no bearing on the note in which it is found. The discussion is totally
out of control. Jeff has sent up the Bat signal for reserve moderators. 

I love it! You've become JN� :: the JOLLY NINJA JUNK NOTER!!!

MIKE `ALWAYS A HOME FOR SPARE BABES' JN

    In all fairness to the Detroit Pistons fans, we should probably
    move the discussion back in the direction of basketball.
    
    Mark.

Yes, Mike JN, much as Christ lived a quiet life for 30 of his 33
year, then "came out" so has John Hendry.

I'd like to think that the catalyst for this change in John was his
exposure to this freakin' lunatic called Chainsaw, but for the 
change to be complete it had to be there, beneath his normally
staid, reserved self.

Mike, it was something to behold.  The sky suddenly got brighter, 
and over the left field wall I could see Moses looking down.  
Elvis was watching from the sky boxes, and Muhammed was in the
reserved seats behind first base.  Then, with a bolt of lightening
flashing, John ripped that ball apart, jumped up, ripping off his
shirt, pounding his chest.....

The Ultimate Ninja Warrior Statistician was born.

I was sore afraid.....

>>    In all fairness to the Detroit Pistons fans, we should probably
>>    move the discussion back in the direction of basketball.
>>    
>>    Mark.

BACK in the direction?  It hasn't been in the direction of basketball yet.

�BACK in the direction?  It hasn't been in the direction of basketball yet.

Well, not to appear stupid or anything, but I've been discussing
Baffroom Olympics.  Now, the title of this note is the 

	Official W.C Detroit Pistons Note

Now, WC does stand for Water Closet, right?

�    In all fairness to the Detroit Pistons fans, we should probably
�    move the discussion back in the direction of basketball.
    
   	I think you're absolutely right, Mark. And I feel kind of ashamed of
maseff.

	JOHN JN�HENDRY! How many seconds would it take you to chew your way
into a Detroit Pistons Basketball??

Mike JN

    re: .454
    
    >>P.S.  Nori, you started this bull. My guess is that you've recently
    
    What bull ? If you are taking about my comments on Laimbeer, then yes
    I did put a note but if are taking about my response to O_J then I
    didn't start that one.
    
    -- Ram Nori

    
    Let's try...
    
    tonight's matchup is Philly. Who's healthy who's not? I see Philly 
    winning by about 5. I think besides being too strong for Rodman
    this year's MVP has the quickness to offset the Worm's fine skills...
    
    Will Lambieer play or take a powder tonight as both Mahorn and Sir
    Charles would love to hand him his head?
    
    Is it on th boobtube???
    
    mike

    	Personally I hope Philly wins.  The Celtics would have a much
    harder time with Indiana than the Knicks.  The Knicks have a tendency
    to beat themselves, and the Pacers match up well with Boston.  Plus
    the Boston/New York rivalry aspect would make it interesting.  The
    Pistons shouldn't be challenged until the Conference Finals.
    
    				/Don

    
    Celts will take them out in the second round Don you'll see.
    
    
    mike

    	No way, Detroit will roll like they always do with the home
    court advantage.  Celtics can't win in the Palace.

    	No way Brother Jihad.  The Celtics guards stink!  Had they kept
    Shaw and drafted the kid on Golden State we would be talking a
    different story.  Michael Smith is a "waste of skin".  8^)
    
    				/Don

    
    Celtics-Indiana is a mute point.. Cavs will finish in the 7th spot,
    Indiana 8th.  
    
    

    
    Reggie Lewis stinks? Paxon's been playing better but once the
    pressure's on who knows. DJ doesn't make too many bad decisions
    but just doesn't have the legs left to play 40 minutes. Bagley's
    lucky he's got a frontline to work with. Pistons are not a fast
    break team which plays into the Celts hands. They only have to win
    one at the Palace, they can do it. This is assuming they get by the
    first round. One thing is for sure I won't be surprised to see them
    in the finals and I won't be surprised to see them fishing the first
    week of may....
    
    mike

    	Reggie Lewis is really a small forward and not a guard.  Every
    team they see in the playoffs will make Reggie handle the ball as
    much as possible.  He's a helluva small forward though.  8^)
    
    				/Don

    
    but teams have done that during the year. yes they'll probably
    step it up in the playoffs but with Bird also being able to
    handle the ball the Celts should be able to withstand the pressure.
    
    the only drawback is the old legs.....

    
    
      Nah, they both walk out to center court, turun around and face 
    opposioote baskets, put their hands on their knees and
    rub butts.
    
    
    
          Steven
    
    

       Larry won't be rubbing butts with anyone for a while after his visit
    to the Dr. yesterday.
                                         Denny

< Note 52.489 by AXIS::ROBICHAUD "AudieMurphy,Sgt.York,RayBourque" >
                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Devine,TrumanCapote,RayBourque....

hope this helps, Slasher...

    re: .484
    
    Hey Jeff, if you know when to drop it, why did you respond to my note ?
    Looks like you don't know when to let something drop either. Relax
    Jeff, will'ya ?
    
    -- Ram Nori

�Devine,TrumanCapote,RayBourque....

�hope this helps, Slasher...


	It does, but you made a typo 'Saw, should read:

	Devine,TrumanCapote,KevinDineen...

	Much better...

				/Don

�	It does, but you made a typo 'Saw, should read:
�
�	Devine,TrumanCapote,KevinDineen...
�
�	Much better...


Oops /don, you're right.  I did make a typo.  But you didn't
get it quite right either...

	Devine,TrumanCapote,Liberace,RayBourque...

That's much better....

(Gee, this sounds kinda like the Cleveland thing, eh?)

    500 replies... I didn't know the Pistons were this popular.... sigh...
    I'm touched, really... sniff...
    
    
    re .484  Shouldn't attacks or comments like this be taken care of in
    mail?
    
    glad to see there's some hoop content stuff in here.  Maybe good times
    are associated with the Pistons...
    
    Let's go Hawks!<

>    500 replies... I didn't know the Pistons were this popular.... sigh...
>    I'm touched, really... sniff...
    
    Walt, that doesn't include all the garbage notes that have nothing to
    do with Detroit!
    
    Mike

    	You know someone was telling me that the Doc was always on Bird's
    butt.  Do you think...  Nah...
    
    				/Don

    Don't mention garbage and the Pistons in the same topic... it's not
    becoming of a most civilized World Champion....
    
    -Walt

ClayBone...  YOu might just be right.  I mean, JHendry used to be
reserved, scholarly, upright...

Now he's a freakin' lunatic like me...

FRAN WAY YOU AR TOO BLAM!

    
    Pistons were soundly beaten by the Sixers. Laimbeer and Magic have same
    number of ejections this year ? Not anymore. Pistons thought they can
    intemidate the Sixers, but got intemidated instead. First it was Isiah, 
    he took few swings at Mahorn, and was ejected out of the game. With few
    minutes remaining in the game Laimbeer tried to vent out his frustation
    by shoving Mahorn in his face, and Mahorn's friend Charles Barkley
    didn't take that very kindly and went after Laimbeer and decked him
    flat. Laimbeer deserved every bit of what Charles Barkely gave him.
    Long time ago Barkely said Laimbeer starts a fight and then backs out,
    this time Barkley jumped all over Laimbeer before he could back out.
    
    I don't condone fighting on court, there is no place for it on BB court
    but at the same time you can't  break iron with a stick and somebody
    had to teach Laimbeer a lesson and Barkely was the right person. I
    won't be surprised, if Barkely is suspended for a game or two. 
    
    Walt, did you watch the game ? What's your opinion ?
    
    -- Ram Nori

    	Mike Childs.  Carnac for a day.  Someone here at work said it
    was one helluva brawl.  Could be interesting if these two meet in
    the playoffs.
    
    				/Don

    Ram,
    
    Although I was happy as hell to see Barkley go after Laimbeer, he did
    not "deck him".  They might have ended up on the floor together in a pile
    but that's about it.  After Barkley landed a left hook, the stiff Laimbeer 
    went after him, and didn't go down until the other players jumped in.
    
    					Steve

       Isiah was a riot. He was junping up and trying to 'punch' Mahorn.
    Rick was just standing there with his arms down and laughing at him. 
    Isiah, Barkley and Laimbeer should all get the boot for 2 or 3 games.
    We'll see what kind of Filberts Stern has. Will he make the goons miss
    some playoff games?
                                     Denny

    Hey Nori, what, are you on a crusade, or something, to get the whole
    world to agree with YOU and say with YOU that the Pistons are a bunch
    of dirty players, and then, just like YOU, become a blind fan of the
    Lakers?  And why constantly do YOU have to single out a particular
    noter just because he's been a *life-long* fan of a team from the area
    in which he lived a good part of his life (unlike you I would guess)?
    
    Your act is getting old, Nori.  Get it?
    
    respectfully,
    H�wk

    
    I was amazed that the refs didn't get a better handle on this from the
    get go. Lambeer was pushing and shoving after the whistle for most ofd
    the game,. At one point, when he was taken out of the game for a
    substitution, he tried to push Barkley out of the way when he was
    walking off the floor. Also, there appeared to be no security in the
    arena. Barkley was attacked by two fans as he tried to leave the floor
    after the ejection. It put a little bit of a damper on the celebration
    after the game.
    
    For anybody who watched the games, what about Rodman-Barkley going at
    it in the low post. To be any more intense, they'll have to let them
    use baseball bats on each other next time.
    
    Dennis
    

    YEAH SIXERS !!!!!!!!!!
    
    
    Stern might 'get tough' on the Sixers and Pistons - after all no
    Celtics are involved ....

    I wonder why the Pistons went after an ex-teammate?
    
    Mike

    
    Every Sixer/Piston game this year has had several scuffles involing
    various Pistons with Mahorn. I guess they're out to prove to him and
    everyone else that they are still the "Bad Boys". The funny part about
    that is that they certainly haven't proven it against the Sixers , with
    three losses against the Sixers this year. The one victory they have
    against Philadelphia was an overtime squeaker.
    
    Dennis
    

Typical Thomas routine.  He finds himself losing a big ball game so what
does he do?  You got it -- scalp massage one of the opposing players.
Class act by Laimbeer all the way.  Mahorn goes in for the dunk and the
Pistons are history; better jam the ball in his face.  These guys, Mahorn
included, are doing their best to turn the NBA into the NHL.  No class.

Laker_Ken

    re:-1
    
    I think you're off base with the Mahorn comment. This year, for the
    most part, he has been alot more under control than from what I've seen
    in previous years. Last nights attack by Thomas is a good example. He
    just laughed it off, even though Thomas hit him in the back of the
    head. I think he feels a need to keep Barkley under control and stop
    Charles from getting thrown out. Mahorn has everything he does put
    under a microscope by the officials. He has gotten several Ts this year
    for swinging his elbows after grabbing a rebound. Rodman did the same
    routine last night after every rebound, but there was no problem with
    that. Also, Mahorn has gotten several fouls called on him for setting
    moving screens. I cann't think of anybody else in the NBA who gets that
    called on them. Of course, I've seen about 60 of the Sixer games this
    year, so I've seen alot more Mahorn this year than before.... and he
    has made the Sixers a _much_ better team.
    
    Dennis

And besides, all them big guys just LOVE to get a_Isiah Scalp Massage!

    Nope, didn't see the game, looked for it, but it wasn't on my cable.
    Was it here or in the news that Mahorn and Barkley said they'd
    be waiting for Laimbeer?  I can't remember, I think it might have
    been Mahorn on Letterman, but anyway, I'm not surprised.  I heard
    it started because Barkley got fouled by Rodman.  Laimbeer stepped in.
    Doesn't sound like a wimp to me, sounds like same stuff Mahorn did
    last year.
    
    We'll see what kind of fines get sent.  I can't comment until I see
    the clip or have time to read about it.  Same with Thomas.  Don't
    know what led up to it, can't comment on it.
    
    Good to see this at least is talking about the team and back off the
    beaten path...

    
    Walt, I read it in TSN about Barkley claiming that Lambieer is a
    troublemaker who starts it then runs.
    
    mike

    Walt, et al -
    
    I didn't see the game, but here is the report from MacPaper:
    
    "The Rick Mahorn-Charles Barkley tandem frustrated and intimidated
    Detriot, and the result was a bench-clearing brawl that Pistons'
    assistant Brenden Suhr called "the worst I've ever seen."
    
    The fight broke out with 14.8 seconds left.  Mahorn went up for
    a dunk on a fast break and was fouled by Dennis Rodman.
    
    As Mahorn glared at Rodman, Laimbeer jammed the ball under Mahorn's
    chin.  Barkley went after Laimbeer, connecting with three punches
    to the face.  Laimbeer caught Barkley with an uppercut as both benches
    emptied and players tumbled to the floor across from the Detroit
    bench, wrestling, punching and scalp-massaging."
    
    So that's the story.
    
    BTW Philly 107, Detroit 97
    
    Laimbeer, Hastings, Thomas, Barkley and Mahorn were ejected.
    
    Barkley scored 36 wif 15 boards.
    
    JD

Could it be that Barkley was not wearing his Gillette Sport Stick
Anti-Perspirant?

Could have been allowing a malevolent aroma to be intruding upon
more gentlemanly play.  (i.e. did his pits stink?)

Might this have contributed to the tactics of Lambier.

Is there any truth to the rumour that the Rangers are thinking of
hiring Lambier as a "Goon Consultant"?


Is it true that Lambier does not wear a jock when he plays, preferring
instead to let Isiah carry it?


HOpe you can provide some answers....

    
    re: McPaper
    
    Mahorn was definitley _not_ ejected. I think in the past he would have
    jumped into the fray, but this year is a kindler, gentler version of
    Rick Mahorn.
    
    As far as Barkley goes, I remember him making the remark about Lambieer
    starting the ruckus and running away. I think that Last night Charles
    wanted to make sure Bill didn't get too far away from the action after
    he started it.
    
    Dennis
    

    re: Last Few
    
    Actually it all started after Mahorn's dunk, Mahorn stared at Rodman
    and meanwhile Laimbeer shoved the ball into Mahorn's face, I don't know
    why the refs didn't call a T on Laimbeer at that point. Anyway after
    the shove Mahorn went after Laimbeer but was restrained but Barkely 
    immdediately jumped on Laimbeer and threw few punches. As I said earlier 
    it was totally Laimbeer's fault, and also Charles should not have jumped 
    on Laimbeer, at the same time I can understand why Charles did that to
    Laimbeer.These player had enough crap from Laimbeer. Laimbeer does it
    on purpose to frustate his opponents ( I heard this on TBS/TNT during
    a Pistons game). I don't know what provoked Isiah to throw punches but
    from the clip it looked like Mahorn stood there like a punching bag.
    
    -- Ram Nori        

    How can it be totally Laimbeer and partially Barkley?  Sounds like a 
    contradiction right there.  Maybe Laimbeer heard the quotes and decided
    not to run?  I don't know, like I said I didn't see it...

    re: .530
    
    Walt, It is not a contradiction, what we said is Laimbeer started it by
    shoving the ball in Mahorns face, so if anyone had a legitimate right
    to beat on Laimbeer it is only Mahorn, but Charles helped him out,
    there for Charles is at fault only partially ( He was protecting
    Mahorn). If Laimbeer had not shoved tha ball in Mahorn's face nothing
    would have happened. So, Laimbeer is the one who started it and hence 
    it is his fault.
    
    BTW how come whenever Laimbeer is invloved in a fight and it is
    Laimbeer's fault, you claim you have not seen the clip ? It happened in
    the past (remember Pippen ?).Looks like either your loyality is preventing
    you from speaking the truth or you don't care about Pistons to know
    the result of an interesting game.
    
    -- Ram Nori

    
    The penalties that were handed down by Rod Thorn:
    
    	Lainbeer	$20,000 and 1 game suspension
    	Hastings	$10,000
    	Thomas		$ 7,500
    
    	Barkley		$20,000 and one game suspension
    
    Both teams were fined $50,000 and all of their players that left the
    bench were fined $500.
    
    Rod Thorn said that the fight was premeditated on the part of _both_
    teams. I think he watched "West Side Story" one too many times. Jake
    O'Donnell, the ref for the game, said that there was nothing the
    officials could have done to prevent the situation from occuring.
    That's laughable. Laimbeer was trying to start a fight for much of the
    evening, and finally started to attack Mahorn as Rick was being held
    off by Rodman. 
    
    BTW - Laimbeer said on the Pistons 900 telephone number that he would
    "take care of Barkley" during the game last night. What a sportsman.
    
    Dennis
    

    re: .532
    
    Who said Laimbeer was a Sportsman ? Actually he is a disgrace to any
    sportsman. With his comments he put his own foot in his mouth. Now
    refs will watch more closley than ever.
    
    -- Ram Nori

    
    I can't believe I'm going to do this but as far as the 900 number
    conversations that Lambieer had the day of the game, what was he 
    supposed to say? He's talking to his fans, who obviously where asking
    him what he was going to do about Barkley whom two months earlier
    basically threaten him with his statements that given the opportunity
    he was going to get Lambieer because he felt Lambieer always started
    trouble than ran.
    
    Now I'm as happy as the next guy to see Billy take a pop (wish someone
    would lay the little princess out cold, preferable Joe Dumars doing it
    to straigthen out Zeke's act) Barkley is definately to blame for this
    one getting out of hand.
    
    Cost Sir Charles 51K in lost pays and fines, too bad he'll hardly
    notice it.......
    
    mike

    re: .531
    
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!(tm)(tm)
    
    So much for who's "totally" at fault and who's "partially" at fault,
    eh?
    
    And, yeah, Walt, you're loyalty to your Pistons is really slipping to
    just casual fandom cause you just don't seem to be watching them
    anymore.  But, it's nice to have a life, ain't it!
    
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!(tm)(tm)
    
    Unbelievable.
    
    H�wk

    	Yeah Walt, start watching these Piston games or we'll ban you
    from notes.
    
    				/Don

    Let me start getting Piston games on Sports Channel instead of the
    lowly Celtics and I'll get to see this stuff... Don't have access
    to Prism or PASS, Ram.  TNT and CBS didn't carry it?  Tell you what,
    you buy me a dish, I'll watch every game.  Or you can tell the
    Boston TV stations to stop showing Bruin highlights and just
    show Laimbeer's greatest hits for 5 minutes....Deal?
    
    I saw the clip.  Laimbeer shouldn't have rammed (no pun intended,
    maybe... ha ha...) the ball into Mahorn, but he could have got a
    T, maybe kicked out or whatever without Barkley going after him.
    See what Mahorn got fined?  $0... Because he kept his cool.  That
    would have been the end of the incident.  Charles took it upon himself
    to throw a couple of punches, so it's his fault as much as Laimbeer's.
    That's why they both got fined?  So it wasn't only Laimbeer's fault.
    Does that make sense?  Didn't say it wasn't Laimbeer's fault, just
    said it wasn't "totally"... 100%+50% doesn't make it all one guys'
    fault, does it?
    
    I promise I'll try to pirate the Piston games in the future if you
    by me a dish...  Better yet, get me season tickets and a plane so
    I can see all of them in person... thanks...

    	Hey Walt, the SportsChannel was going to pick up some Detriot�
    games, but an FCC ruling said that due to the excessive violence
    the broadcasts would be rated R and not be allowed on basic cable.
    
    				/Don

       The Sportschannel already has hockey, getting the Pistons would burn
    out the vile-o-meter.
                                      Denny

    Non-conference records:
    
    Pacific Division	103-79
    Midwest Division	 95-87
    
    	Western Conf	198-166
    
    Central Division	 97-99
    Atlantic Division	 69-99
    
    	Eastern Conf	166-198
    
    By this measure, balance of power in the NBA has shifted west. 
    I'm not sure whose argument, if any, is supported.
    
    John

    Re: .538
    
    Walt, while not apologizing for Barkley's antics, he did just what he
    said he would do.  He didn't let Laimbeer get away with his hit and run
    tactics.  And for that we all should be grateful.  Maybe Laimbeer will
    think twice about starting up again.
    
    /Ed 

    	Lyndon Byers, noted Bruins pugilist, gave Charles high marks
    for style and technique.
    
    				/Don

Quite...

    Didn't say Laimbeer didn't have it coming.  My only point it took both
    of them to turn it into what happened.   Both were to blame.
    
    Ok, /Don, put Detriot(tm) on after 11... I could live with that....
    better than watching the old folks in green...

    	PAD - Pistons After Dark.  I like it.  Of course we would have
    to carry some sort of Surgeon General Warning about how excessive
    violence could be hazardous and a disclaimer for young folks not
    to try these things in the schoolyard, but it could work.
    
    				/Don

    re: .545
    
    Walt, nobody said Charles was right. It takes two to fight. But
    if Laimbeer hadn't started nothing would have happened. Actually the
    foul was committed by Rodman, I don't understand why Laimbeer shoved
    the ball in Mahorn's face when he wan't even looking at Laimbeer (
    cheap shot). I know why Charles went after Laimbeer, he was just
    protecting his teammate. Was Chalres right in going after Laimbeer ?
    That is a different issue.
    
    Regarding the tickts I'll have my guys talk to 'Don' Daley and see what
    we can do about that ? :-)

    I like it /Don.  Or how bout Mayhem at Midnight (MAM).    They could
    show the games earlier, but they'd have to edit 'em.  Could show
    the complete, unedited, parental discretion recommended, full-mayhem
    version on PAD.  
    
    JD

Still haven't heard any explanation for Isiah's scalp massage attack
on Mahorn.  That was hilarious.  

Laker_Ken

    Ken,
    
    That was a funny moment.  The look on Mahorn's face is priceless.
    
    jD

    I STILL haven't seen that one.  I guess all the Celtic lovers felt it
    wasn't worth showing when they could show Laimbeer getting his butt
    kicked...
    
    re: Ram
    
    There's no need to keep this going.  You said in a reply that it was
    totally Laimbeer's fault.  I just disagreed.  How come Barkley can
    stick up for Mahorn (like he needs it) and Laimbeer can't for Rodman?
    I'm sure my tickets must be in the mail.
    
    Motor City Midnight Mayhem has a nice ring...

    	Hey Walt, it wasn't just Celtic fans who enjoyed seeing Laimbeer
    getting a beating.  8^)
    
    				/Don

    Hey Walt, its lonely at the top.

Chuck

    Can be at the bottom too... it's all perspective... Can we have
    a Probert or Jack Morris LDUC too?  I guess that's what happens
    when you're at the top...

    Is this a takes one to know, uh, never mind, Slasher... geez we
    need someone to bash with Gibson and Guillermo gone... Urbano
    Lugo?  Cecil Fielder?  Johnny Parades?  If that ain't depth, what
    is?

    re: .551
    
    I don't want to go on either but you are making me write this. You ask 
    how come Barkely can stick up for Mahorn and Laimbeer can't for Rodman ?
    
    Looks like you posed that question for argument sake. Going by the
    facts, Laimbeer shoved the ball in Mahorn's face and Barkely helped out 
    Mahorn, What has Mahorn done to Rodman to warrant Laimbeer's help ? You
    tell me. You mean Mahorn is not even supposed to stare at the guy who
    fouled him ? Give me break. You can be loyal to your team that is fine
    but justifying what Laimbeer did by saying he was sticking up for
    Rodamn sounds, like your loyalty is overshdowing the plain facts.
    
    -- Ram Nori

>  Rodamn sounds, like your loyalty is overshdowing the plain facts.
   ^^^^^^
    
    	Quick, (tm) that sucker..  Oh by the way, I was right 500 notes
    ago when I said "West issssss best" and O_J said I was full of it
    (just for the record) 8^)
    
    sean

    Whatever... I think Mahorn outsizes Rodman.  Laimbeer shouldn't have
    done it.  

Watch The Sportwriters discuss this.  TOOO funny.  They called it
like it was a boxing match.

I love watching basketball players fight.  The all look so freakin'
funny.  The only thing funnier is football fights, since who can
hit anyone wif all that equipment on.

Anyway, Telender and Co. had some interesting insights into how the 
fines/suspensions could have been handled etc.

WAtch for it....

'Saw

    Lamebeer(tm) is a girly-mon. Looked to me like he was trying to get the
    hell out of the way after he hit Mahorn wif the ball. Sir Charles
    wasnt about to let Lamebeer get away with his garbage again.
    How about the fairy punch Scott Hasting threw? Did any of you guys
    catch that? I didnt see the game but from what all you guys have 
    said the Pisstons(tm) were frustrated. Sixers are tough--look out
    for them in the playoffs!!! Go 6ers!!
    				Rich
    

    Look at it this way.  Clearly, Mahorn was not interested in a fight
    and Laimbeer's shoving of the ball into him did not provoke the
    slightest reaction to retaliate from Mahorn, right?  Laimbeer senses no
    retaliation and simply backs off instead of further provoking a fight,
    right?  So, up to that point, no fight and, more than likely,
    resumption of play, right?  But, Charles says "No way are we gonna play
    ball cause I gots to proteck ma main man Mahone cuz  ah said the
    nexted tahm this boolshid happens ah gots ta teach dis asshole a lesson
    he ain't gonna foget!", right?  [obligatory :-)]  RIGHT?
    
    And, just so we all get this straight, once and for all (HAHAHAHAHAHA),
    	1.  Laimbeer did instigate a fight with Mahorn that was over before 
    	    it even started.
    	2.  Barkley, unprovoked, initiated the fight between him and Laimbeer.
    
    Sure looks to me like Barkley was 100% at fault here.
    
    But please, lets forget the facts here.......  :-)
    
    H�wk 

    
    re: -1
    
    Nice fiction. Barkley was 100% at fault... HAHAHAHAHAHHA that's a good
    one. I guess the next thing that Piston Revisionist History will show
    is that it was really Barkley that shoved the ball in Mahorn's face.
    Yeah.. that's it....That's the ticket.
    
    Wake up and smell the toast burning.
    
    Dennis
    

    Well, at least we know now that there is also another Jihad amongst us-
    the Barkley one!
    
    May I humbly apologize for suggesting that the almighty Sir Charles may
    have done something wrong!  {as I kneel in the direction of
    Philadelphia, PA, head bowed, clenched fist striking chest}
    
    Long Live The Sir Charles Barkley Jihad!  Let no one bring false gods
    or Larry Bird woodies before him!
    
    :-)
    
    H�wk
    
    P.S.  My p_name should read "Ghandi,AbbyHoffman,SirCharlesBarkley!"

    
    I pretty much agree with you, Hawk. Barkley is a dirty player. So is
    Laimbrain. Just because Barkley has more talent, his cheap shots get
    glossed over as "intensity", or "hard-nosed", or "blue collar", or
    "intimidating", or "pick the trendy-kinder-and-gentler phrase of the
    day that actually means cheap shot".

    
    re:-1
    
    Do you have any specifics, or do you only have sweeping generalities
    that are impossible to disprove. I'll agree that Barkley isn't the best
    example off the court and his attitude toward opponents leaves
    something to be desired, but as far as being a dirty player, I think
    your way off base.
    
    re:-2
    
    I never said that none of it was Charles' fault. But somebody said it
    was all Charles' fault. Either of those statements would be bullsh*t,
    but you propbably wouldn't understand that. I gues if you instigate
    something like that it's never your fault.
    
    Dennis
    

See, I don't know much about this, since I don't often watch
hoops, but I did see the replay lasted night on Sportswriters.

Maybe I'm wading into this fray totally unprepared, but if I may
present a pretty unbiased viewpoint, here is what I saw:

	Lambeer shoved the ball into Mahorn's face.  Mahorn
	said something back, and Lambeer started to move away
	to his left.  Enter Barkley, taking a shot at Lambeer.

	The next thing I was able to see, after the pretty ineffectual
	flailing by those gawky fellows, was a pile of players.

	The next thing was Hastings doing a little scalp massage
	of his own.  I don't remember seeing Isiah at all...

From my point of view, I'd say that both Barkley and Lambeer started
it, with their own separate actions.


Telendar, of the Sportwriters stated that Barkley got fined the equivalent
of $200 for someone who make 30K a year.

I wonder what would happen if I suddenly decided to take a swing at 
Chuck, the dude who sits near me, and then if Paul, the other guy I sit
near, decided to join in.  Do you think DEC would fine me in the same
proportion?

Who knows...

'Saw

Saw, the reason you didn't see the Princess in that fracus is because
he was tossed from the game 4 minutes earlier for initiating an unin-
vited scalp massage on the head of Mahorn.  That was far and away one
of the funniest NBA scenes I've witnessed all season long.  The Princess
was bouncing up and down like a little kid trying to reach Ricky's head.
Mahorn just had this look on his face as if to say, "You've got to be
kidding me.  Get out of here with that slapping crap."  If you ever
get a chance to see that replay, don't miss it.  It's a classic.

Laker_Ken

    Revisionist history :== Danny Ainge bit Tree Rollins

Okay, I'll have to watch for the Scalp Massage of the Year in
the highlight films...

Gawd, if you coulda heard the Sportswriters go at it last night.

They were saying "Did you see Lambeer go for the body.  How often
do you see a basketball player go for the body..."  I was rollward.

If you guys can catch that episode, by all means, do so...

'Saw

    > Revisionist history :== Danny Ainge Bit Tree Rollins
    
    Don't forget to paint the whole picture here.  Not only did Danny bite
    Tree, but he bit his whole arm up to his ebbo.  :-)
    
    H�wk

       According to Sundays Globe Danny isn't a complainer, "I'm a whiner"
    said Mr. Ainge.
                                 Denny

    right Hawk.  Laimbeer gets a T, maybe tossed, walks away, no all-out
    brawl... end of story...  this is almost like saying Laimbeer should
    have been tossed after Parish cold-cocked him in the playoffs a
    couple of years ago... (not Laimbeer shouldn't have been tossed
    or fined, but that it was all his doing).

>    Revisionist history :== Danny Ainge bit Tree Rollins

Or...

Revisionist history :== Danny Ainge was innocent in the fight with Tree Rollins.

Dan

    re -1              
         
    I believe that may be a bit innaccurate, Dan.  I can't recall anyone
    ever saying that Ainge was innocent in the fight.  However, many
    people have said that Ainge did bite Rollins.  Of course who could
    expect you to lay off a [cheap] shot at an ex-Celtic.
    
    Bruce (waiting for Doc to come scurrying to your defense)