Conference 7.286::sports_90

    See also HARBOR::RED_SOX (press KP7 to add to your notebook).
    
    
    py

       According to today's Globe Billy Buck wants to finish his career
    with the Sox.
                                    Denny

    I heard that on the radio this morning.  He must've narrowed the gap
    between his legs since he left the Sox!  :-)
    
    Actually, he's building a house in Middleton, MA right now....
    
    Hawk

    Angels sign Smithson, parade in... any other city!!!  :*)
    
    
    Spud

    
    For the out-of-towners, what the brilliant front office did was
    to neglect/forget to offer Smithson a contract by the specified
    date.  Same thing that sent Fisk on his way.
    
    Granted, Smithson is no all star, but it is another uncompensated
    loss due to an unforgivable blunder.  It's one thing to lose players
    to free agency, and another to see them go because of management
    stupidity.
    
    Gawd, this love-hate relationship is gonna be the death of me yet.
    
    -Dick
    
    

Go Red Sox....

That front office has got to be the dumbest in all of sport.  I cain't
believe it.

Gee, Mr Gumby, I forgot....

Chainsaw

    Re:-1 No way! The Yankee owner and his front office is the dumbest in
    all sports.

    Are you people seriously upset because Mike Smithson is gone??????
    Let's get real----this equals addition via subtraction!!!!
    
    

    I'd half to agree there. Smithson did little at most for the BOSOX.
    He was another arm on an already less than average staff.
    
    -Mike

    Oh come on guys, who is going to be your punching bag now, Reardon??
    
    :*)
    
    
    Spud

    re the last few:
    
    If Smithson makes the Angels' 24-man roster, I'll be surprised.
    
    Smithson's one asset while with the Sox was his ability to fill a few
    different roles (long relief, middle relief, occasional starter).  He
    had some pretty good performances, but overall wasn't that great.  
    
    Red Sox still need a #4 and #5 starter.
                         
    
    py

       I heard a rumour up here in Ottawa about a possible blockbuster
    trade between the Montreal Expos and the Red Sox. The trade would have
    Tim Raines, Tim Wallach and Andres Gallaraga going to the Sox for
    Wade Boggs, Mike Greenwell and Ellis Burkes. Has their been any talk of
    this down there?
    
    Dennis

Never happen...

Aint no way the sox would ever trade Boggs,Greenwell and Burkes at the same time
You might as well just swap names if thye were going to do this.

ALso,

 Lou Gorman is too Skeered to try a trade that big. The Sox need pitching.
They don't need to swap outfielders and infielders for more outfielders and
infielders.


metz

    That trade has been brought up a few times in the Red Sox notesfile. 
    The consensus basically agreed with Metz.  

    
    
    THe latest one
    
    LEE SMITH AND SCOTT COOPER TO THE BRAVES FOR MERCKER-SMITH-GANT...

    Sox wouldn't be stupid enough to give up both Greenwell and Burkes...
    
    -Mike

    Yes, they could.
    
    Lee

    Oh yeah....I keep forgetting about Ruth and Lyle... :-)
    
    
    -Mike

I hear the Red Sox are going to pick up Joe Walton as assistant
GM...lend a whole new meaning to the term "green monster".

Anyway, I can see the Sox dealing Greenwell, but for some reason I 
can't see them trading Burkes...  At any rate, those three guys would
never go at the same time....even if Gorman was that stupid, and
personally I think the guy has ~4 brain cells, he knows he'd never
make if from Fenway to his car alive after the deal was announced...

JMHO,
Chainsaw

                       *** This date in history ***
    
    On this date exactly 70 years ago on 5-Jan-1920, Boston Red Sox owner
    Harry Frazee sold the contract of Boston Red Sox pitcher-outfielder
    George Herman "Babe" Ruth to the New York Yankees who were owned by
    Colonel Jacob Ruppert.
    
    The sales price of the contract was an astronomical and sensational sum
    of $125,000.
    
    Ruth had just completed the 1919 season having hit an astonishing
    total of 29 home runs for Boston.
    
    The 1920 baseball season would feature a much livlier baseball and the
    outlawing of the spitball and other trick pitches such as the
    "shineball" and "scuffball".  Ruth would smash over 50 home runs in
    1920 and would completely and totally revolutionize the game of
    baseball for evermore.  Ruth became (and still is) one of America's
    all-time favorite sports heroes and the Yankees would go on to rule
    major league baseball until the mid-1960s.
    
    Oh, and the Boston Red Sox have, of course, never won a World Series
    since that fateful day.
    
    Bob Hunt

    re .23
    
    The Baseball Encyclopedia lists the date of the Ruth-to-NY sale as 
    January 3, 1920.  
    
    In addition to the $125,000 purchase price, the deal also included a
    $300,000 loan to Frazee.
    
    
    py

    Bob, would you happen to know if the Yankee owner, Jacob Ruppert, had
    anything to do with Ruppert-Knickerbocker beer?
    
    Hawk

    My pleasure, /Don, my pleasure.
    
    And to all the Sox fans, it's okay.  No need to thank me.  I'm sure
    you'd have done the same thing for me.  I'm sure someone out there will
    make sure and remind me that the Phils traded Larry Bowa for Ivan
    DeJesus and then threw in Ryne Sandberg as an afterthought.
    
    Bob Hunt

    Thanks, Bob.  And to think I was just getting over that 1986 film clip
    of Bill Buckner I saw on a 1980's sports recap on New Year's Eve.

First:

< Note 28.28 by VAXWRK::NEEDLE "Fascist moderator asshole" >
                                                  ^^^^^^^
 Please change this to Rectal Pore, since I find it offensive ;^)


re Sox:

	
Ah, a black day indeed.  Very often, I've wonder what life would
be like in that parallel universe that quantum theory often dictates,
where Ruth was not traded to finance a musical.

Would it be that the Red Sox were able to be the dominant force in
baseball?  Would it be that Ruth had even more homeruns because of
the park effect (tm) in Fenway?

Ah, the wonder of it all...

Perhaps even Bill Buckner would have played for the dreaded Yank-mes
and booted the ball in their first WS in 11 years....


Oh well, to dream the impossible dream....

Chainsaw

    Anyone see Yaz on "Good Morning America" the other day?  He was
    promoting his new autobiography.
    
    Has anyone bought/read it yet?
    
    Mike

According to the RED_SOX notesfile, Wade Boggs has started 1990 with
2 straight hits and an RBI in his first AB with a man on base.

1990 = The Boggs .400 Watch 

    
    Is that a new model by Timex?  "The Boggs .400 Watch"
    He'll probably come up with an injury and sit out the season.
    Its the only way he'll ever hit over .400.
    

>    Its the only way he'll ever hit over .400.

Maybe we should start a Cory Snyder/Keith Hernandez .200 watch instead?

Hmmm, .400 sounds more like Cleveland's winning pct.....

daryll

    
    re: -2
    
    Snyder will hit .200 or better... maybe not much better.
    
    re: -1
    
    Atleast there are living people who have seen the Indians win
    a World Series.  Without a #4 and #5 starter, you can count the
    Sox out of it.

    
>    Atleast there are living people who have seen the Indians win
>    a World Series.  Without a #4 and #5 starter, you can count the
>    Sox out of it.

 Hey, my gramps is alive.  He was about 5 last time the Sox won it all.

    >> Atleast there are living people who have seen the Indians win
    >> a World Series.
    
    Yeah, true, but only because of advanced life support systems.
    
    
    
    JaKe
    

    
    
    How `Bout the Clevescum Indians!!!Perrenial Paper Champs of the AL!!!
    Cleveland has a snowball's chance in hell of winning the division.
    A 4/5 starter you say???The Indians need a
    1/2/3/4/5...............`Nuff said.
    
    
    O_J

    Let's start the Joooooooosephineeeee Bell Watch : How many days
    before he's sent to the minors ?
    
    Doc

    BOSOX ARE IN FIRST!  BOSOX ARE IN FIRST!  BOSOX ARE IN FIRST!

    true, but only 1 game out of last place.  :*)
    
    Lee

       But Karen, the Yanks now have the highest paid player in Baseball.
    Ol' Spleenbinder has another 'lock' on the title!
                                          Denny

    
    The yankees and indians are both undefeated... until tonight!

    Imagine how much Mattingly would have received if he hit like Boggs!
    ;-)
    
    Mike

    re .31:
    "... two straight hits ... in his first at-bat"
    
    NOT BAAAD!
    
    ...mike
    

    The Red Sox suck!!!
    
    
    
    `Nuff said
    
    O_J

�
�    The Red Sox suck!!!
�    
    
What vocabulary, what rhythmic phrasing, what angst.

    O_J,
    
    Please correct your reply.  It should read "The Red Sox"[sic].
    
    Lee  :*)

    18 to nuthin'...  WoW
    
    Cub_Fan

    re .-1
    
    Forgive the ignorance,   18 to nuthin???   Todays Brewers - Sox score 
    perhaps.?
     

    18 runs, 20 hits, 1 error and no homers for the Brewers.  0 runs,
    2 hits, 1 error and 5 pitchers (Boddicker, Lamp, Kiecker, Rochford
    and Leister) for the Sox.
    
    We had a good time in the bleachers, though.
    
    John

    Yeah, the most exciting part of the whole game was listening to
    'Saw take on five 12-year-olds in a verbal battle.
    
    The kids were from Medford, had it on their jackets.  'Saw says,
    "Where you guys from?"  One kid says, "Mefaa".  The kid then says,
    "Where are you from?"  'Saw, from Hartford, says, "Hafaa."  I was
    roollling.
    
    Seems like there was always someone returning from a beer run, which
    usually took an inning or so.  They'd sit down, look at the board,
    and say "9 to nuthin?  What happened while I was gone?"  Then, "13
    to nuthin?  What happened while I was gone?"  This just kept happening.
    
    Lee

Yeah, those 12 year olds were tough.  I figure I gave 'em a good
handicap after all those beers I put down.

Actually, I wanted the blonde that was chaperoning them....

They did get a kick out of my Bart Simpson (who the hell are you)
T-shirt.

It was great meeting all the noters that I haven't met before.
It was great drinking all that beer and partying a little.

What was even better were the folks from MIT behind us.  Had a lot
of fun with them.  You shoulda heard 'em laugh when I mentioned
Avagadro's Number... (see, us old borderline alky's know a little about
science...)

The game was boring.  Joe "Six two and even" Morgan handled his pitching
staff about as well as a junkie without a fix would handle tying his
shoes, and the pitchers he did use pitched like little league.

Near the end of the game everyone was rooting for the Brewers to make
it 20...

Other highlights:

	The beer line was fun.  Met lots of interesting people, and
	had a good time.

	The Men's 4x100 swimming relay that took place in the bleachers
	Mens' Room was pretty interesting too.  This guys with a BC
	sweatshirt won hands down over this East German ringer on
	steroids...

Great weather, got a little sun, great beer got a little hungover....

Got to do it again sometimes....

Chainsaw (from Harfaa)

    Also, one destroyed beachball in a moment of temporary insanity.
    
    John

    Yeah, you really bit into that one, John.
    
    For those of you not there, beachballs were all over the place.
    
    For no apparent reason, John Hendry went wild when he managed to
    capture one.  He actually bit the nozzle right off the damn thing.
    The crowd lustily booed him.  Then, to make sure his prey was dead,
    he ripped it in two.
    
    Jeff Needle looked like Yasar Arrafat when he fashioned a hat out
    of one of the pieces.
    
    Lee

    What was even better is that the loudest of the Meffa Children's
    Contingent was begging me for the ball.  I then bit into it (and
    I tore the valve completely out of it), then I ripped it in half,
    then I spiked the remnants and then gave the kids my best "Don't
    f**k with me, I'm crazy" look.  That was tough, because I was fighting
    to keep from bursting out laughing.
    
    Someone's got to take over for Bob Stanley now that he's gone.
    
    John

       John es mucho macho!!!
                                                  Denny  ;^)

Yes, I will second that statement.  

Let me caution you folks, Do NOT, repeat DO NOT, misplace your
apostrophes.  John Hendry, our usually calm, steady statistician
can be a wild man.

Hulk Hogan, who was at the game, had this to say:

	I looked into those eyes, brother, and all of Hulkamania
	trembled.  The little Hulkamaniacs from Meffa in front
	of him we're wondrin' brother, what caused a look like
	that...

Mike Tyson, also at the game:

	I saw John Hendry's eyes, when he bit into that beach ball
	and I was scared.  I didn't have my mouthpiece, and I was
	scared that he might hit me and break my teef.

	Then Robin gave me some lithium and I was ecstatic.  I was
	just ecstatic...

The rest of us were quaking in our shoes at the virility, and savageness
of John's eyes...


Beach Balls 0
Hendry      1

(a better game than the Sox....)

Chainsaw

    John was mucho pissed.  I hate beachballs and waves.  I believe
    in day baseball.                     
    
    In fact, I believe in the soul, the c*ck, the p*ssy, the small of a
    woman's back, the hanging curveball, high fiber, good scotch, that
    the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent overrated crap.  I
    believe that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone.  I believe that there
    ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf (tm)
    and the Designated Hitter.  I believe in the sweet spot, soft core
    pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning instead of
    Christmas Eve, and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft wet kisses
    that last three days.
    
    So there.
    
    John

I'm shocked.

First, yesterday I heard the RCASO actuallys resembles a normal person,
and now I'm seeing a John Hendry I've never seen before...

Clearly, John es mas mucho!  Clearly!!!

'Saw

    I tell you, Hendry is a man's man ! HAHAHAHAHA !!!!!!!!
    
    Boy, I never had so much fun staring down a brat in my life !
    
    Heh heh heh .....

    What do you guys expect?  The man's originally from Chelsea!  Do NOT, I
    repeat, DO NOT kcuf with anyone from Chelsea!
    
    					Steve  

>>    John was mucho pissed.  I hate beachballs and waves.  I believe
>>    in day baseball.                     

You've still got a way to go, John.  My bitten beachball count is 6 (and only
once did I think the crowd was going to riot against me).  Now if we could just
find some way to bite the wave.

j.

    Absolutely rollward!!!
    
    Mad Dog Hendry was awesome!  Ripped that beach ball valve stem like a
    true Pit Bull!  Them Meffa boys were skeert $hitless!  And I believe
    that was the moment when A&W finally realized that there was not a
    normal soul amongst us......  :-)
    
    Yes, Mr. Needle makes a wonderful Yassir Arafat!  :-)
    
    H�wk  

�    normal soul amongst us......  :-)
    
Nope, that's a given.

It was really funny.  My brother, Alison and I showed up outside the Rat
at 0830.  It wasn't supposed to open till 9, but the guy opens the door,
says "You all look like boozers, come on in...".  Then he says, "The 
bartender isn't here yet, but I'll draw you a couple"...

Too cool.

I know I'm not normal...8^)

'Saw

       who was the kicker for the Brewers yesterday and why did he miss
    all those xtra points?!!
                                          Denny

    Sox were only 2 touchdowns from making it a game!

    Just so happens, Denny, that I was either in the beer line or
    navigating my way through the rough waters in the mens room, so I
    missed the failed extra point attempts after the 2 touchdowns.  I did,
    however, witness the 2 field goals.  Kevin Romine was the holder.....
    
    :-)
    
    H�wk  (who could use a little nap this afternoon)

    ....Way to go, Crash Hendry
    

    Nah.  I'm here.  I'm still savoring my victory over one of the forces
    of evil.
    
    We also have to mention A&W's bright shining moment when she yelled
    at the Meffa contingent in front of us, in her best "Mom" voice,
    to put down their banner so we could watch the game.  Way to go,
    Alison.
    
    John

Romine :== the Biggest Dog-It Player since Dave Winfield...

I couldn't believe the guy.  He takes off after the shot into the
corner, and like all of a sudden he pulls up and just jogs.
Either that or my eyes flipped into slow motion....

Crash Hendry...too funny.

The rough waters in the men's room were exhausting.  Personally, I
entered the Water Polo competition, the Whitewater Kayaking, and
the Individual Medley.  I got a Silver Medal in the Kayaking.

The beer lines were pretty cool, but I kind of liked the Young SS
Security Forces better.  Give some guy with a hokey crew cut
a walkie-talkie and he things he's got a wicked testosterone increase
or something.

It's a good thing Hendry didn't REALLY go as wild as he could have,
because I doubt the Hitler Youth could have contained him....

Gawd, I keep seeing Needle with that beach ball on his haid, and
I'm cracking up.

I need a nap too...
Chainsaw

    	In case the rest of you were to drunk to see it, our little
    Meffa contingent made ESPN's SportsCenter last night at 7:00.
    Charlie Steiner made a comment about Fenway's Bleacher Creatures.
    If he only knew how true it was.
    
    				/Don

I think we should have made the Meffaa Kids honorary noters for the
day, or something like that.  They were pretty funny, and the
blonde that was with their chaperone certainly was nicer to look
at than Kevin Romine's Plate-Stackable Butt....

Where ya from? 

Meffaa, where you from?

Harfaa....

Chainsaw

    I've been den mother to *lots* of groups of crazed sports fanatics.....
    
    That's how I know how to deal with the tribe from Meffa.  
    
    And how do you guys know that *I'm* normal???!!??
    
    
    A&W

    Hey A&W, nobody's accusing you of being normal!
    
    That Mad Dog Hendry sure makes ya wonder about all the quiet types out
    there!  :-)
    
    H�wk, Bronze Medalist, Individual Medley

Well, not only did the Meffa Mafia make the news, so did 
Mad Dog Hendry biting the Nozzle of that beach ball...

In fact, the guys on Sports Channel's Sprotsworld used a telestrator
to highlight John's technique.  Again, they mentioned the crazed look
in his eyes... 

Seriously folks, it was something to behold...

Chainsaw

    > .....it was something to behold.
    
    Tell me about it.  Ah was right nexted to MDHendry, and ah'll tell ya,
    even I was skeert!  That look, oh that crazed look.......  :-)
    
    H�wk

      Hey Doc, using my sunglasses to give those little guys the stare down
      was the key. The kid on the end (the one that looked like a little
      Charles Barkley) behaved for a whole 2 minutes.

      I'm sorry I missed John Hendry act, I think he might have seen that 
      turtle movie that is out now and he refuses to control is aggression.

      Frank Way looks just like one of the guys from the group Alabama.
      It was a pleasure to meet some of you guys and gals (Hawk,\Don,John 
      Hendry,Lee Timmons,A&W,Frank Way). I want to thank my buddy Jeff 
      Needle for introducing me as Ralph Caso to a few people.

      As for myself I have an all-time top 5 hangover today.

Chuck

    Tis true Chuck, thanks for the shades ..... if you think the kid
    was intimidated, you shoulda saw the parents ! They thought I was
    going to slaughter the whole row !

Yes, yes, yes...

I'll tell you, in my time I've looked many crazed maniacal lunatics right
in the eye, and stared them down.  I've looked into the eyes of the
Hellspawn creatures that inhabit the boonies where I live.

Why once, I even stared down Ol' Scratch hisself, but never...never...

Never have I felt such fear when I looked into MadDogHendry's eyes
while his still foaming mouth clutched and shook that recently deceased
beach ball.  It was incredible.

Why, I almost expected him to just cut a swatch of carnage and destruction
right down to the field, and then to battle off a few of the Hitler Youth
SS Security guards while working his way out to the mound...

Scary thought.....

chainsaw

    I don't run fast enough to avoid the security troops while on the
    way to the mound.  Heck, I probably wouldn't have even gotten as
    far as Kevin Romine before being tackled and hauled off to the Charles
    Street jail.
    
    What I really wanted was that football being tossed around.  I believe
    it was one of those foam rubber ones.  If y'all thought the destruction
    of the beachball was crazy, you should have seen me had I got my
    hands on that.
    
    And, I was completely sober too.
    
    John

The esteemed Mr Santos waxes too humble folks.

For a Cowboys fan, he's an okay guy.

You see, he entered the Olympics going on in the baffroom.  Amazing
waters sports athlete.

He took gold in the 200 meter backstroke, and the 100 meter freestyle.
He captained the Water Polo team to a gold medal, and finished 
second in the Grand Prix Jet Ski race...


And he wasn't the only one to have a hangover...

BLAM BLAM BLAM,
Chainsaw

    Gentlemen -
    
    The John Hendry known and beloved of the noters is a man of many,
    many talents.  Factual reporting is but one of them.  So is his
    ability to subdue a beach ball.
    
    Please also consider that JHENDRY was the *only* gentleman there
    to know both women in attendance, and to arrive with one and leave
    with the other :-) .....
    
    A&W

    re .90
    
    Oooooh .......
    
    I tell you, the things John does to impress the women .....

�    Please also consider that JHENDRY was the *only* gentleman there
�    to know both women in attendance, and to arrive with one and leave
�    with the other :-) .....
    
I know who I want for my Tag Team Studding Partner!!!!!

I am impressed.  Duly impressed.

It was quite a day, let me tell you.  A day that will live in Infamy.
From the first call of "Wade, I've got no underwear on" to the
last vestiges of "Romine you stiff, go back to New Britain" we had
an unbelievable good time.

I daresay we had a better time than the players (well, those from
Boston anyway) and it was a nice day weather wise....

Chainsaw

>Amazing waters sports athlete.
>
>He took gold in the 200 meter backstroke, and the 100 meter freestyle.
>He captained the Water Polo team to a gold medal, and finished 
>second in the Grand Prix Jet Ski race...
    
    Water sports?  Gold, as in shower?  Hmmmmmm.  Just what kind of
    afternoon did you gentlemen have.  I was planning on going to Fenway
    while on a business trip in May, but if that kind of stuff goes on...
    
    	--dan'l
    

Dan'l --

It was amazing!  By about the 3rd inning, or the Red Sox trailing
by 9, I forget which, I went to the bathroom.

At that point in time there was about three to five inches of water
on the floor.  There's this old usher in there setting up swimmers'
starting blocks and next thing you know he's yelling "Last call
for Individual Medlay".  So, I says to myself, what the heck...

I stripped down to my shorts, grabbed lane 8 and swam.  I didn't 
do that well, so I got dressed, went back out, grabbed two
beers, and watched some of the game.

Nexted time I went in there, they were starting the White Water
Kayaking Event.  I signed up, got this boat, and rowed my a__
off, and lo and behold, I finished SECOND!  I got me a Silver medal.

Since I'd told the guys about it after that first swim, nexted thing
I know there all in there.  Jeez, Chuck was playin' water polo
(the East German team was tough, but we beat 'em) and Hawk was 
doing the backstroke....

By all means, dude, go in May, but get into TRAINING NOW!!!!  The
competition is really stiff, and you've got to watch out for the
Eastern Bloc Countries.....

Hope this helps,
'Saw

EARRTH::BROOKS "The roof is on fire ! ..."            3 lines  17-APR-1990 11:55
�        -< I don't know if the parents were thankful or terrified ! >-

	The sight of you *finally* being able to pick on someone your own
size probably had their parents quite amused, if anything.  8^)

				/Don

	Q:  How many beers did Chainsaw have at the Patriots' Dayu
	    Sox game?

	A:  Avagadro's Number!

    
    Did anyone else read Callahan reply's to little Mikey Greenwall's
    tirade with the press?
    
    forget how it went exactly but Greenteeth (tm) was threating to wring
    a few writers neck and this guy recommend that the writer just pretend
    to be a low and away slider with the bases loaded and Mike would be
    sure to miss......of course his buddy Boggsies back him all the way on
    what beast the sportswriters in boston are....
    
    and Clemens will throw out his arm by June. He still doesn't know how
    to pitch. He still wants to overpower everybody. He really overpowered
    Ventura last night....
    
    ;^)....
    

       Are the sportswriters Dreamwell (tm) is threatening to strangle, the
    same ones he was whining to when he wanted more dough?
                                         Denny

Great line in the Red Sox file I think,

"During spring training, Roger Clemens wore #14 to honor Jim 
Rice, during the regular season, Mike Greenwell will honor Rice 
by playing like him..."

ha ha

daryll

	Enough of this negative talk.  It's the nattering nabobs of
negativism (NNoN) who are causing the Sox to slide.  Not the lack
of pitching, not the lack of a first baseman, not the fact that Mike
Greenwell treats every pitch and every fly ball to the outfield like
a tax audit (to be avoided at all costs), not that thier keystone
combination has the range of a sixpack of Keystone beer.  It's the
writers, it's the fans.  It's the same old story.

				/Don

    Slasher, you got it right.  Them righters is the real problem with
    the Sox.  
    
    Right after them Sox beat my Tigers for the 3rd time, one Globe
    writer commented on how tame the Tigers are, and how they are sure
    to be in the cellar at the end of the season.  Another Globe writer in
    a different column, same page, was touting the Sox as the greatest
    team ever, their having truly stomped that Detroit team. .  Pure
    bullshit, both of them.

    Wonder who was in the booth last Monday?  Boy he sure screwed the
    Bostons that day.  :*)
    
    Lee

�< Note 28.102 by AXIS::ROBICHAUD "CyYoung,SandyKoufax,Sportswriters" >

/Don, clearly you don't mean *THE* Sportswriters (� SportsChannel)
do you?  Those guys are the closest things to Sports Noters outside
of DEC?

You must mean them weenies in the Bahstahn papahs, eh?

Deen to wonk(tm)
'Saw
    
    

    	No 'Saw, after following baseball for all these years I've come
    to the conclusion that any team's sportswriters cain ruin a great
    ballplayer's career.  Their barbs and criticisms cain do more damage
    than any great pitcher could ever dream of doing.  Whenever a team
    or player goes bad who's to blame?  The media.  I'll tell ya, the
    Sox should sign some of these media guys up as pitchers. 
    
    				/Don

Well, then I wanna draft Telendar, because he might not throw a
great barb, but he certainly can get his wit over....

    Hey, I just found out I'm going to run up to Lotus on Monday, April 30
    to deliver some ALL-IN-1 training.  Schedule says the Sox are playing
    Seattle.  True?
    
    Can any of you guys give me hints on how to get two tickets?  Should I
    rely on scalpers or is there a cheaper way?  At Wrigley, they had SRO
    seats for $5.  Does Fenway?
    
    Thanks in advance.
    
    	--dan'l

Dan'l --

Talk to the Hawkstah, but I know you can get bleacher seats for
$6.  

Make sure you visit the Men's Room off the bleacher area.  That is
the site of the Baffroom Olympics, something you shouldn't miss, and
which will enhance your Fenway experience....

Good luck,
'Saw

    A Monday night game this early in the season should be no problem
    for getting tickets anywhere in the ballpark.
    
    Mariners are also here May 1 and 2.
    
    John

    'Saw,
    
    I've already packed my water polo cap.  Yeah, I actually have one from
    my water polo days.  Looks stupid as hell.  Of course, I wouldn't say
    that to the face of most H20 polo players.  They're a mean lot.
    
    John,
    
    Does that mean I can just grab two (tickets that is) at the gate?
    
    	--dan'l

    Yes.  There will be ample tickets available at the gate.
    
    
    
    Nelly

    Make sure you wear a condom over your haid...Cain't be to safe swimmin'
    'round the floors of the Fenway Baffroom.
    
    Mark.

    You can also usually find people selling tickets, especially on that
    big bridge over the Mass Pike right next to the ballpark.  I got rid of
    2 tickets there very easily last monday just before the game.....
    
    H�wk

Nah, ain't no problem.  Just look at me 'n Hawk.  We did it...No
problem....

Seriously, there's a lot of chlorine in that water, so you'd better
bring your swimmer's shampoo ....


chainsaw

    I'll be in the greater NE area between May 29 and June 1. Will the Red
    Sox be home for any of those dates, and if so, who will they be
    playing?
    
    Dennis
    

�
�    You can also usually find people selling tickets, especially on that
�    big bridge over the Mass Pike right next to the ballpark.  I got rid of
�    2 tickets there very easily last monday just before the game.....
    
Yeah, but Hawk, I saw you...you just tossed them off the bridge...

    < Note 28.114 by GRANPA::DFAUST "Sixers=Atlantic Div Champs" >


>    I'll be in the greater NE area between May 29 and June 1. 
    
    Greater NE area?  Sounds like New Hampshire.  :^)
    
>    Will the Red Sox be home for any of those dates, and if so, who will 
>    they be  playing?
  
    Sorry, the Sox will be in Texas getting shut out by Ryan et. al.
    
    Mark.  
    Dennis

    
    re:-1 
    
    Actually, Littleton.
    But that's still far enough away from Arlington, TX to make going to
    the game geographically unattractive.
        ;*)
    
    Dennis

    
    Interesting observation:  The Bruins outscored the Red Sox this
    pasted weekend, and the Sox played two more games!
    
    -Dick
    

Was that Kutcher or Greenwell who bobbled that single in Saturday's
debacle?

I saw the replay on three newscasts and I sure couldn't tell.

At any rate, I have a feeling I might be opening some beers for Beak
this year...

'Saw

    Neither, it was Romine.
    
    Mark.

Oh!  That STIFF again....

    Lamp looked pretty good yesterday.  With the exception of Pena, can't 
    say much for the bats. 

I think the bats were out celebratiing EArth Day, along with
the squirrels, the robins, and the ducks, and the gators...

'Saw

    OH NO! You mean to tell me that the Red Flops have actually let Bill
    Buckner back on the team? (saw it on TV last night...couldn't believe
    my eyes) Little wonder that Boston is the perennial goat of the AL when
    they allow the guy who earned them the most infamy to return.This has
    to have a negative impact on ticket sales!
    
    Ken

    
    Apparently all is forgiven with Billy-Buck.  When he was announced
    on opening day he received the loudest, longest cheers (not jeers)
    of all.
    
    Dickster
    

At the game on Tuesday, he came out as a pinch-hitter and received a 1/2 minute
standing ovation before being announced.  After hitting an RBI bloop single, he
got another standing ovation for about a minute.

I've got to admit I admire his gumption.  He deserves to have won the fans
back.  I hope he sticks but don't think he has a chance in hell.

j.

The two preceeding replies are what will happen to you if you
don't JUST SAY NO.  [many many 8^)]

Billy Buck was a stiff, is a stiff, and always will be a stiff.

>> Billy Buck was a stiff, is a stiff, and always will be a stiff.

Yeah, but he's OUR stiff.  

Anyway, didn't mean to start a rathole.  Just wanted to get my opinion in.

j.

    Billy Buck is not a stiff!!!!  It's funny how everyone can remember
    one boot which cost us but can't remember what a great contribution
    he made while a sox player.  I'm sure some stat monger out there can
    supply some info that backs this up.  I think it would be a mistake
    to get rid of him and I also would like to see him as the everyday
    first baseman.  I have the weekend season package and I'd rather
    watch Buckner than the combined Quintana, Robidoux.  He always could
    hit and he always will be able to hit, and he plays adequate defense
    so let him play and dump one of the others.
    
    Jimbo

Yeah, I heard he went to China in the off season, where the surgeons
replaced his ankles with these new bionic things....8^)

Yes, Billy Buck is our stiff, and we all know that everyone needs a 
good stiff one from time to time...

'saw

    
    Speak for yourself, 'SAW!!! 8^)
    
    
    
    Steve_who_hopes_yer_talking_about_drinks

�    Steve_who_hopes_yer_talking_about_drinks


Wiffout a doubt!

    They gave Buckner a standing ovation,huh? The Boston fans kinda remind
    me of the voters in NH who re-elected a guy in jail.
    
    Ken (who's glad he's not a Bosox fan anymore)

    Billy-Buck is perfect for the Sox, the kind of me-first-second-
    and-always kinda guy the Sox have always had on their roster.
    He'd have fit in perfect with those Yaz-Evans teams of "25 cabs
    for 25 players."  I'll bet he and Boggs are best buddies, swapping
    stories about how many hits they have while not moving runners
    along in games.
    
    I hate it when the only reason a player stays in any professional
    sport is to satisfy his ego.  Buckner just had to prove to himself
    that hew could do it, which is fine if you're a marathoner, golfer
    or tennis player.  But in a team sport, even one like baseball where
    individual skills are prized as much as team goals, a player should
    put the needs of the team ahead of personal goals.  Buckner shows
    me no signs of doing that.
    
    NAZZ

    
    Steven,
       I don't think "held down" is the correct term. It was more
    along the lines of "couldn't get up 'cause the fans were look-
    ing for his wallet"
    
    Bull~
     

Well, that Buckner ego cost the Sox a series.

We all know that whoever-the-farg-the-manager was wanted Buck
out.  But Buck threw a tantrum, spread his legs and the
rest is history....

'Saw

    >Billy Buck is not a stiff!!!!  It's funny how everyone can remember
    >one boot which cost us but can't remember what a great contribution
    >he made while a sox player. 
    
    *I* do remember the contributions that Buckner made, and let me assure
    you, they were not "great".  He was fortunate for a time (such as his
    time in Wrigley and Fenway, the 2 best hitting parks) that his stats
    looked decent in some categories.  He wasn't fooling me though.  I
    agree with Frank: Stiff, all the way.  Overrated stiff.
    
    >I think it would be a mistake
    >to get rid of him and I also would like to see him as the everyday
    >first baseman. 
    
    You must dislike the Sox even more than I do.  I'd make great company
    at a Yankee game with those season tickets you have.  That way we could
    both root against the Sox, and for Buckner to get more playing time.
    
    Dan

>>Anyway, didn't mean to start a rathole.

Well, so much for this.

    
    I know of a charity auction this Friday night - May 4th at the Marlboro 
    Girls Club to benefit New Covenant Christian School in Ashland, Ma.
    
	I am helping to co-ordinate it.  Tonight we found out that we are 
        having Carl 'YAZ' Yastremski autograph and  Federal Express
    	a baseball to us tomorrow.  (His daughter is moving to a house
        that one of the auction coordinators currently lives in.)
    
    	We also have 15 shoeboxes full of baseball cards to be auctioned.
    
    The viewing of the items starts at 6pm and the auction at 7pm.
    
    The Marlboro Girls CLub is on Pleasant street which intersects route
    20.

Please contact me, Lisa Lombardo DTN 291-0590 or REJOIC::LOMBARDO for further
    details on any of the above.  thank you.  or at home 508-485-2272 or
    508-485-3630

    �He still doesn't know how to pitch. 
    
    Well, Mikey, I see you are still holding on to your theories even
    though just about everyone who follows baseball disagrees with this
    one.

    	What's the Red Sox record this year anyways?  Is there division
    shaping up to be a Least?

About even to this point, 4 teams over .500 in the East.
3 playing over .500 in the west.

Of course, you could always pick up a paper....

daryll

    dam papers always gone when i get here.  bugs the hell outta me.
    besides, i'm not too much of a freakin' baseball lunatic, just
    wunnerin' what the sit was.  tanks.

    Announced at 510 EDT tonight - Lee Smith to St Louis for Tom Brunansky,
    even up.  Gets rid of the log jam at short reliever, improves the
    right field situation, probably consigns Evans to the bench for
    the rest of his career, does nothing to help the starting pitching.
    But it's a start.
    
    John

    I was hoping this trade wasn't going to materialize. I think StL.
    got the better of deal. Stats anyone for Brunansky for the last
    couple of years?
    
    -Dick
    

I don't like the Smith for Brunansky deal UNLESS the Red Sox also
make a move to trade Greenwell or Burks for a very good starting 
pitcher.  Why?   Well, what hope do guys like Mickey Pina, Phil
Plantier, Carlos Quintana, etc. have of making it to the majors
as everyday players if the Sox keep all three OF for three or four
more years?

I'd like to see a Burks to the Mets deal for Darling and Magadan.  
Or how about Greenwell to the Royals for Seitzer and Montgomery?

>Why?   Well, what hope do guys like Mickey Pina, Phil
>Plantier, Carlos Quintana, etc. have of making it to the majors
>as everyday players if the Sox keep all three OF for three or four
>more years?
    
    Doug, Brunansky will be gone next winter.  I'll predict right now, the
    Sox won't sign him.  Manangement already planted the rumor.  He's from
    California and has expressed an interest in playing there.  Plantier
    and/or Pina will be with the big club next year.  Much cheaper
    salaries.
    
    					Steve
    

    
    that's right Mac, I am. The guy has 3 or 4 pitches but everytime he
    gets in trouble or batter gets to him, he throws the heat. I know the
    batter knows. In the first few innings he gets by with it but by the
    late innings they catch up to him.....
    
    I don't question his physical abitlity just his mental ability...
    
    mike

    A huge "THANK YOU" to John Hendry for helping me aquire tickets to
    Sunday's game at Fenway Pahk.  The Sox stunk, but I got to see a great game
    by Candiotti.  The knuckleballer was at his best.
    
    	--dan'l

    I wasn't there.  I got him in contact with someone who had a pair
    of extra tickets to sell.  And Jeff, with all the beachballs flying
    around on Friday night, not one of them came anywhere close to me
    and I was sitting in the bleachers.  They must have all developed
    radar!
    
    John

I got my bicuspids into two of the rainbow-colored demons.  Nearly cost me my
life.  Some ass in the upper deck spent the rest of the game throwing garbage
at my head.  Sure made friends with the people around me who also got pummeled. 
Of course, they were too busy jumping around after beachballs and waiting for
the wave to care too much.  Got 3 cokes spilled on me because these jerks were
going after beachballs.

j.

    
    Yanks spank hapless Sox...  he he he

						W	L	GB

				Toronto		33	27	-
Hapless				Boston		31	26	�
				Baltimore	29	29	3
				Milwaukee	27	29	4
Less than Hapless		Cleveland	26	30	5


	Kind of like that movie on Fox "Less than Zero"

				/Don

    
    Wasn't Cleveland 7 games behind Boston on sunday morning?
    
    
    Less than hapless - last world championship 1948
    ????????????????? - last world championship 1918

    	So the Indians picked up a whopping two games.  Whew, better
    call the Fire Department, that team is smoking!
    
    				/Don

    In my 33 years of living, I've never once heard of Cleveland having a
    respectable baseball team.  Yup, I remember McDowell and Collovito, but
    have any of you Cleveland fans been around to see them win ANYTHING?
    
    And you have to love the way they just pack that stadium every night.
    
    					Steve

    Steve, I'm older so I remember the 1954 Indians.  Truly, a GREAT
    team during the regular season, won 111 games, I believe, out of
    154.
    
    But, come crunch time, they got wiped, swept, zapped by the Giants.
    So, they were a REGULAR team during the Fall Classic.
    
    By the way, the Indians were known for great pitching, rather than
    hitting or defense, during the 50's.  Early Wynn, Bob Feller, Bob
    Lemon, etc.  Not that they didn't have hitters, such as Colavity,
    Rosen, but their forte was pitching.
    
    Lee

       Cleveland fans must live in the past when it concerns ANY sport.
    One of their teams doesn't even have a past.
                                        Denny

	I think the most exciting baseball game to take place in Cleveland
during my lifetime (I'm not as old as Lee :->!!! ) was a promotional night
back arround the early 70's, Nickle-a-Beer night!!! I beleive the riot
squad had to be called in to clear out the stadium!!! I can't remember
who the Indians played or who won however....

JimH

    
    The Indians played the Texas Rangers.....I was there man......
    
    It was something else.....the streaker.........another streaker.....
    A woman who sat just 5 rows down from my Dad and I got up and jumped
    the fence, running out onto the field with her purse in hand, went
    over to the home plate ump and hit him with her purse, several times.
    She was escorted off the field.  You should have seen all the trash
    that landed on the field....  After the game...there police all
    over the place...on horses...billy clubs out!  
    
    I wasn't able to drink then but I do know Good Old Dad had his 
    share of those 5 cent cups.  Lots of the guys around us were trying
    to catch foul balls with their cups...some over a foot stacked.
    It was so funny!
    
    The Chief
    

    
    re: -1
    
    Indians v.s. the Rangers, I believe...  free entertainment!
    

I remember that. The management boys were real morons on that 
one. .05 beer night, what did they expect?

Next it'll be "Hard liquor and handgun" night.

daryll

    < Note 28.165 by SALEM::DODA "Friends don't let friends drive Chevys" >
                         -< courtesy of Marv Albert.. >-

>Next it'll be "Hard liquor and handgun" night.
>
>daryll

    Don't none of you booze-a-holics come messin' around us handgun
    owners.
    
    Mark.

    Wasn't there a game a few years back called "Disco something-or-other"?
    Anyone who brought a disco album got in for 1/2 price or nothing.  I
    also think there was a planned concert after the game that ended up
    being cancelled because of people chucking albums around like frisbees.
    Then there was a bonfire in center field where all the albums were
    burned.  
    
    I can't recall the city this game was played in, but for some reason I
    thought it was Cleveland or Chicago?
    
    					Steve

    It was a Bill Veeck special at Comisky in Chicago.  (I cain't believe
    I know this :-) )
    
    A&W

    
    I believe that disco debacle occurred at Commiskey when Bill Veeck
    owned the team in the mid to late 70's.
    
    Again, my memory isn't very clear, but wasn't it a double-header, and
    the White Sox had to forfeit the second game?  
    
    Brian

    It was an anti-disco night at Comiskey.  The festivities were held
    between games of a doubleheader.  A small riot ensued and the Sox
    did have to forfeit.
    
    My favorite promotion was seat cushion night at Fenway back in 1982.
    It was vs the Indians and the game got out of hand quickly.  The
    cushions were great for clapping together to celebrate a home run.
    They were even better as frisbees scaled onto the field.  A bunch
    of them ended up in the Sox bullpen, and Bob Stanley lit them on
    fire and did an Indian War Dance around the fire.  Needless to say,
    the Sox have never done that again.
    
    No, I didn't destroy any seat cushions.  I kept mine.
    
    John

       Just got some tickets for the DECWORLD set-up crew for the 29th vs.
    Texas, anyone else gonna be there?
                                         Denny

    re promotions. 
    
    In "The Bronx Zoo" Sparky Lyle talks about Reggie bar day. Where
    everyone at the game got a free Reggie Bar. During the game Reggie hit
    a homer and the fans covered the field with the bars. Some kids ended
    up running onto the field and scooped up a bunch of 'em.

    
    re: Disco night
    
    Perhaps this belongs in White Sox note, but it was called Disco
    Demolition.  The Disco records were blown up in between games of the
    double header.  Fans then poured out onto the field tearing up sod,
    bases etc.   The Sox forfeited due to unplayable conditions.
    
    Steve Dahl now a famous and controversial DJ in Chicago was mc for 
    the event.  One of his early claims to fame, and the subject still
    comes up frequently in Chicago.    Disco did Suck, so I suppose it 
    was worth the Sox forfeiting a game.
    
     

    I read somewhere recently that to this day they're still finding
    slivers of disco records in the Comiskey Park turf.
    
    Getting back to the other Sox they better not look back, something
    black and orange might be gaining on them... ;-)
    
    
    py

    Frank Way loved Disco...right Frankwa?
    
    JoJ

Not by a long shot.

During the disco era I was in college.  As a music major we thought
the whole thing was pretty bogus.

What we were doing at the time was cramming four or five people and 
their axes into practice rooms, locking the door, lighting up, 
and playing some of the meanist blues this side of the Delta.

Muddy Waters, B.B. King, John Lee Hooker, Howlin' Wolf...that's
what we cut our teeth on.  Any tune by Willie Dixon was fair
game...  We even had some original tunes, and when this got really
"hazy" we'd just jam for a while.

Learned to play a little harp during this period too, althought I couldn't
come close to some of the dudes we had in these sessions.

"Gypsy Woman tol' my mama, before I was born
Got a boy-child comin', gonna be a son-of-a-gun...."


So, while everyone was doing the hustle, we were tryin' to pay our dues....


Course, rooting for the Sox during that period made it easy to play
the blues!  8^)

    thats cool about harp and all, as long as ya didnt  play any  flutes
      frankie
    
    haaaaaaa
    
    dinz
    

Nah, we left the flute playing for all those Jethro Tull types....

But man, I'll tell ya, we had some guys who played harp that if you
closed your eyes, you'd have thought it was Little Walter or 
James Cotton!

As the late Sammy Davis Jr woulda said "Those cats could really play...
and I really mean that...."

'Saw

    C'mon Frank, admit it, you were a Disco Boy.
    
    JoJ

Not by a long shot, JoM!

You have to remember at that time I was heavily into music.  It
occupied probably 80% of my day in school, and I got heavily into
many types of music, from medieval stuff right up through the most
far out avant garde stuff you can imagine.

Disco, musically speaking, had about as much substance as tissue
paper, so we just passed it off.  We really were into much more
complex stuff, or blues...

Never did like disco, nope.

'Saw

    Clemens got slapped around last night....  
    
    Never got out of the second inning.  7 H, 6 R, 3 ER, 2 BB, 3 SO.

 Must have been Phil Oneil's columun in the sunday Telegram Karen ;^)...

 was the mound too high last night? perhaps he was getting squezzed?

 Frank, cmon Disco was great. the music stunk but boy the heavy bass beat
 used to get the women hot and the clubs were filled with em'' ;^)

 mike

    mike,
    
    me gots to ask.. 6/20 the lawn.. fill me in?
    

Well, Mike, we did make a distinction between what we called 
Funk (stuff like Brick House by the Commodores and stuff by 
Earth Wind & Fire) and pure Disco (Bee Gees, KC and the Sunshine
Band etc).

Funk was cool, especially if the band had horns.  The Phoenix Horn Section
from Earth Wind and Fire was highly ranked by the brass majors I hung out
with, as was the Tower of Power Horn Section.  Commodores were a hot
commodity.

"Cause she's a brick house, she's mighty mighty, jus' lettin' it all hang
out!"


As far as the Sox last night, Roger had an off night.

BTW, I heard Rich Gale (pitching coach of the New Britain Sox) talking
about really tall pitchers having an advantage based on angle of 
delivery etc.  It was quite informative.  I guess if the pitcher
is tall enough, his delivery is so angled relative to the batter that
it's almost like trying to hit slow pitch softball.....

'Saw

    Funk?  Frank go home and listen to Van Halen. You'll be ok.

Debil Dog -- I do that too!  I just happen to have the *most*
eclectic tastes in music in the Western world.


'Saw

    Frank, you really have to narrow your musical tastes. Funk is Junk. 
    
    Any of you guys see how much Frank sweats? Maybe that explains it.
    
    JoJ

Like people, every musical genre has something to offer.

Open yourself to the music.  Expand your stream of consciousness.

Eat some of Chainsaw's Magic Mushrooms, wait for the White Rabbit,
bring a towel in case you sweat, and let it be.


Chainsaw

    
  >    I just happen to have the *most*
  > eclectic tastes in music in the Western world.
    
    Hey 'Saw, have you been taping all 17 hours of VVagner's "Ring of
    the Niebelungelubblelied" thisted week?  It's simulcasted in stereo,
    too.  It's more filling, and it sounds great too.  A better cure
    for insomnia you won't find anywhere.
    
    Dickster
    

Gee, I almost asked in that reply who'd seen Das Rheingold lasted night.

I haven't been taping it, but wished I'd known about it.  The stories
that are being portrayed are based in some of the neatest mythology
known to man.

People don't know it, but Richard Wagner also wrote a pornographic
opera cycles called the Ring of the Niebelunglabia(tm), which is
very rarely performed...

It's hard to believe that the lush sounds of Wagner's orchestrations
were considered controversial in the world of late 19th century Romantic
music...

'Saw

28.190� Gee, I almost asked in that reply who'd seen Das Rheingold lasted night.

	Save the effort Frank.  I can speak from experience and tell you it's
a lousy beer.  Red White & Blue is better.

				/Don

    
    I switched to the opera lasted night after Rocket Roger was getting
    the SLOF(tm) beat out of him.  I can't say I could watch the whole
    freakin' thing right up until the fat lady sings, but VVagner does
    have some stirring overtures.  "Die Valkeries(sp?)" always reminds
    me of either the Bugs Bunny cartoon where Elmer Fudd sings "Kill
    da Wabbit", or that Helicopter scene from the 'Nam movie (Apocolypse
    Now (?).
    
    And how come they sing, like, 68 bars of music in German, and the
    subtitle on the bottom is only about three words?
    
    Dicksterlungelieb
    

    /Don, now there's a beer, good 'ole Red White and Blue.  Is it on
    sale yet?  Works better than Drano.
    
    Lee

    >> or that Helicopter scene from the 'Nam movie (Apocolypse Now (?).
    
    "(Sniff, sniff)  Ahhh, I love the smell of napalm in the morning."
    
    	- Robert Duvall as "Colonel Kilgore" in "Apocalypse Now"
    
    Bob Hunt

"Smells like victory"


The reason is that the German language has this tendency to make
works up out of small words.  Ausgang, which means exit, is really
Out-way, or something like that.

At any rate, German can take up a lot more room than english. (YOu 
should see the word for Factory Automation 8^)).  Add to that the
fact that a lot of the libretto reads like poetry, and you get
the extra stuff.

I wish I had a good command of the language because then I wouldn't
need the subtitles.

The way Roger was pitching last night you've thought it was Twilight
of the Gods anyway....

'Saw

> was the mound too high last night? perhaps he was getting squezzed?
    
    Well two or three starts ago, when he wasn't impressive, but got the
    win anyway, he blamed it on the 150 pitches or so he threw 6 days
    earlier.  This mornings Globe said that the mound in the bullpen was
    too low, and the one in the field was too high.
    
    Maybe he's saving the squeeze for next time?
    
    Dan

    	Dan, you master of misinformation, Roger did not say any of
    those things.  Pena did.  Roger's only comment was that he pitched
    poorly.
    
    				/Dom

    >This mornings Globe said that the mound in the bullpen was
    >too low, and the one in the field was too high.
    
    Hey /Don, cancha read???  What does the above say?  No misinformation
    there.  BTW, this wasn't quoted from Pena either.  It was obviously fed
    to the writer.  One can only wonder why...
    
    Dan

    >Well two or three starts ago, when he wasn't impressive, but got the
                                   ^^^^ ^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^
    >win anyway, he blamed it on the 150 pitches or so he threw 6 days
    
    Dan, either your information or memory is bogus.  Not counting last
    night, Clemens' ERA in his last 3 starts was 1.96.  The game you're
    talking about, he gave up two runs.  What a shitbum, huh?
    
    					Steve
    

    	RE: Dan
    
    	I'm rubber and you're glue.
    	Everything you say bounces off me and sticks to you.
    
    				/Don

Yes folks, it'll be here soon....

The all new, all improved, all VHS (we got rid of Beta)

	
	/Don Schoolyard Rhymes, Rivalries and Retorts Video.


In this video, /Don examines that time in our lives when our lack
of inhibitions caused us to be quicker on our feet, quicker with
our fists, and quicker with our wits.

/Don expounds in detail upon the art of the retort, covering in
large part that body of knowledge known as schoolboy illogic.
He also calls in his expert partner Dinsdale to show the latest
pugilistic techniques to help you in your own fisticuffs.  Never mind
what Tyson's doing, ask /Don the expert...

Call, now, and we'll send you free of charge, the informational booklet,
"Schoolyard Scoring - or How to Make it With Beautiful Women!"


Call 1-800-YOR-MAMA

    Latest flap from the Red Sox camp has to do with players being upset
    with the travel arrangements the team has set up. Seems that the
    team got hung up at BWI airport after the Orioles game by Customs.
    The Toronto airport closes at 11:00 so they had to fly into Hamilton
    and then take a 50 minute bus ride. Team didn't get into their hotel
    rooms until 4:30 AM yesterday morning. Clemens and Evans walked
    off the plane in Baltimore, spent the night there and flew to Toronto
    yesterday afternoon.
    
    Seems travel was one of the complaints Clemens presented to management
    two years ago. Tony Pena said the Red Sox travel arrangements are
    the worst he's seen. One player claimed that if the Sox don't clean
    up their act on travel, Clemens and Brunansky will leave the team
    when their contracts expire simply for that reason. Kutcher and
    Greenwell were also outspoken about this.
    
    What exactly is wrong with the Sox travel arrangements? My first
    reaction was "Here go the whiners and belly-achers again" but when
    Pena said this was the worst he's seen, I'm thinking perhaps there's
    more here than meets the eye.
    
    Rich
    

    
    I don't care how bad the travel arrangments are, when you're making the 
    kind of money these guys do, I really don't think they should complain.
    
    I didn't think these issues surfaced when a team was winning!  
    
    Oh, that's right, it's the Red Sox!  

    The players really don't have any right to complain on this one.
    Yes, they charter.  In most cases, it's not a problem.  I believe,
    however, there is some sort of flight restriction going into Toronto
    at night.  There is also a time problem in clearing Customs.
    
    The only alternative would have been to stay in Baltimore an extra
    night and fly up Tuesday morning.  Would have probably taken just
    as long at Customs but would have avoided the bus ride.
    
    John

    Yes, but why is Pena saying the Sox travel arrangements are the
    worst he's seen?
    
    Rich
    

    	Maybe Rico Petrocelli got the team banned from some of the
    airlines.
    				/Don

    It could be the hotels, there may have been problems with buses
    meeting teams at the planes, it could be the baggage handling, it
    could be the flight times, it could be any number of things.  Some
    of these things are in the control of the team, some are not.
    
    In defense of Jack Rogers (Red Sox Travelling Secretary) team travel
    is a pain in the neck no matter what level it's on.  You are dealing
    with a very fussy clientele and you want things to go perfectly,
    no matter what.
    
    In defense of the players, when you fly as often as they do and
    at such odd hours as they do, little things are very important and
    what may seem to be a minor annoyance to us becomes a big annoyance
    to them.  They work under an awful lot of pressure and it's especially
    difficult after a loss.  I'm not trying to excuse misbehavior, either.
    
    John

    One area where the Red Sox could be criticized is for not sitting
    down with the players before the season and saying, "we have a charter
    going from Baltimore to Toronto after the game.  As you know, flying
    into Toronto is a pain in the neck because we have to go through
    customs, we have no idea how long it will take, if we complain we'll
    get held in Baltimore for 24 hours, we have to fly into Hamilton
    because Toronto's airport closes at 11 and that's an extra hour
    bus ride."  Communicating the source of the problem no matter how
    many times the guys may have heard it before at least covers the
    team.
    
    Travelling with the Patriots gives me some perspective on the problem.
    The team has to arrange for a charter flight from Boston or Providence
    to city X.  The team has to arrange for buses to bring the team
    to the airport and a truck to bring the team's equipment.  If it's
    a two week trip, then the truck also has to handle the personal
    luggage from everyone in the travel party.  The team gets a special
    menu on the plane.  The buses and the equipment truck not only have
    to be able to get to the plane at whatever airport the team is flying
    out of but they damn well better be waiting at the other end.  Hotel
    rooms, meeting rooms and meals have to be arranged at the hotel
    at whatever city the team is playing in.  The personal luggage has
    to be there (with any sport, the preliminary arrangements must be
    made far in advance and with football, someone goes out in advance
    of the team (2-3 days), part of his job is to make sure everything
    is OK on that end, have room keys ready, clear the way at the airport
    and so forth).  Buses have to be ready at the right time to get
    the team to the stadium.  After the game, they have to get the team
    and the gear onto the transportation, get to the airport, onto the
    plane and back home.  Everyone is tired and wound up at the same
    time and pissed off if they lost.
    
    Someone from the airline travels with the team and the hotel and
    bus people bend over backwards to make sure this all goes well.
    Continental handled the Patriots flight needs last year for the
    first time and I was impressed with just how eager they were to
    please on the trip I took with the team.  The person who is in charge
    of the travel is responsible, but a lot of what he's responsible
    for is in the hands of someone else and no matter how prepared he
    is, no matter how many times he checks, something is going to go
    wrong and he is going to get blamed.
    
    In baseball, the players get meal money rather than having big team
    meals, and there's always personal luggage to contend with.  Baseball
    teams tend to fly at more odd hours than football teams and I think
    baseball players are much less gentlemanly.  I've travelled with
    the Patriots on 3 road trips and have never seen them give anyone
    a hard time.
    
    John

       What's wif all the 'hidden' notes? Is Crunchster back?!!
                                            Denny

    
    Frank, you naughty boy!! You musta said a no-no.
    
    Bull~
    

    
    Are these Sox predictable or what?  A chance to move into first
    place lasted night, and "when the going gets tough, the tough get
    going--in reverse."
    
    Pinning their hopes on future Hall-of-Famer Wes Gardner (1-4 record,
    ERA left out intentionally to preserve disk space), the loyal Sox
    fans went scurrying for the "Fold File" before the evening was through.
    
    Next victim, Jeff Gray, who had turned grey by the time he finished
    his embarrassment, went 1 1/3 innings, giving up 3 runs on three
    hits.
    
    Then came fireballer Tom Bolton, who turned into "Furballer" Tom
    Bolton, and choked most heinously while coughing up 1 inning of
    6-hit, 5-run ball.
    
    Does anyone out there know anyone who can throw a ball 60' 6" (in
    the air, that is), and looks good in tight baseball pants?  I know
    where we might be able to get him (or her) a cushy job for $600K
    per year.
    
    By the way, I read that Toronto had some kind of broken water main
    problem in and around Skydome lasted night.  Those baffroom olympics
    must have been wicked awesome!
    
    Dickster
    
    

    Hey Dickster, what's your problem? Wes Gardner's ERA is 6.28. Better
    than the +7.** of a certain Yankee starter. 
    
    And Jeff Gray is a closer. He retired the first 4 batters he faced.
    Bolton is another story, in my opinion, and deserves to be lambasted.
    
    The Sox are not expecting great things from Gardner. But he got
    the Sox into the 6th inning only down by 3 runs. Against what many
    people feel is the 2nd best team in the American League, this ain't
    as bad as you make it seem.
    
    Gray is a 1 inning pitcher. He has said it and Fischer says it.
    Perhaps Morgan deserves some heat for leaving him in. To be honest
    I expected Lamp to come in.
    
    But I am looking on the bright side. The Sox went to New York,
    baltimore and Toronto and were trailing by 1 1/2 games when they
    left. They come home with a 5-4 record and are out by 2 games. They
    split an away series with the Jays. Nobody said the Sox are the
    class of the East. I think they are doing better than many expected.
    As are the Tigers.
    
    Rich
    

brrrrr.. cold in here :)
    

    Ya wanna know the funniest?  The Barely Heard this morning reported
    that Bolton came in and "saved the bullpen"....   Now, I'm optomistic,
    but even _I_ couldn't write that wiffout gaggin'.
    
    Speaking of baffroom Olympics, I'll be there tomorrow night with about
    20 friends (hold yer keyboard, Nazz :-), and I'm sure we'll consume the
    minimum required for entry into the 100 yd crawl...  but excatly which
    baffroom is it, and when are the post times?
    
    ML

    Can someone please tell me what Tom Bolton is doing with the Sox,
    this guy has great credentials in the minors and has NEVER,I repeat
    NEVER shown that he can get a major leaguer out when it counts,how
    is he still in the Boston organization after all his piss poor
    appearances,I don't care if he strikes out 100 guys in a row at
    Pawtucket but everytime they say he's ready he's like kerosene on
    a fire.....he's USELESS.He must have knee pads that don't wear out
    or something because he's certainly not here with his so called
    pitching talent.
    
    
    Tom

HE IS NO TWO BLAM U OUR

    First off Bolton is a lefty. Lefties tend to get more attention
    and are forgiven more frequently than righties.
    
    Secondly, when Dopson went down for good, Morgan called Pawtucket
    and asked them what they had for pitching. He was told that Bolton
    was the best they had. 
    
    Like you said, a successful AAA pitcher is not necessarily a good
    major leaguer (witness Jeff Gray as a closer or Dana Kiecker) but
    you have to go with what your minor league manager says sometimes.
    
    Seems as though the best prospects the Sox have are not in Pawtucket
    but at New Britain. I would expect a few of the AA Sox to get a
    long look see next year at spring training and perhaps 1 will come
    north with the big team. One or two others will probably end up
    with Pawtucket with guys like Liester getting their walking papers.
    
    Rich
    

    
    	Does anyone know what happened to the RED_SOX conference?
    
    	Is it still on HARBOR?  I'm getting "File not found".
    
    	Thanks for any info.
    
    							GTI
    

    Try SHPLOG::RED_SOX

     re: -1
    
       Just  tried SHPLOG::RED_SOX and got "File Not Found"

    Sorry, it was working on a couple of days ago when I last checked,
    maybe someone else knows something.....

              <<< ASABET::ASAB11:[NOTES$LIBRARY]BASEBALL.NOTE;2 >>>
                                 -< BASEBALL >-
================================================================================
Note 27.221                  The Boston Red Sox note                  221 of 225
VAXWRK::NEEDLE "Money talks. Mine says "Good-Bye!""   6 lines  21-JUN-1990 10:55
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The satellite that houses the RED_SOX notes file went away according to Bill
Jackson (HARBOR::).  The file is in the process of moving.

I'll let you know when it's back if Bill lets me know.

j.
    

    
    >          -< Sox Sad Slump Continues.  Slip To Second In Standings. >-

    Right.  And the Hindenburg just "slipped" off its moorings.
    
    Dickster
    

    What did Marty Barrett say?
    
    JD

	RE: JD

	Marty was moaning about Morgan's Barrett benching.  Incredulously
crying foul and favoritism.

				/Don

    He said he felt and many other players allegedly agree with him that
    the Sox strongest lineup had him at second and Reed at short.  He said
    also that Reed felt he should be playing second rather than
    flip-flopping positions and that if management felt Reed should
    flip-flop, Reed should do what's best for the team.  Reed said he never
    said he wouldn't play shortstop but did say he'd prefer to play only
    one position.  Reading between the lines of Barrett's quotes, it seemed
    like he was unwilling to accept there is a difference between
    management and labor.
    
    That sort of sums it up.  More current discussion in the Red Sox notes
    conference.
    
    John

    clemens +  tired arm=  no 20 game  season
                                             
    
    
    film a t 11
    

    
    'Bout time we're back on line.
    
    Red Sox haven't won a World Series since 1918, but *NO* team, until
    the Sox did it last night, has *ever* hit into two triple plays
    in one game.  
    
    Way to go Sox!!  Congrats!!  You make my pants swell with pride!!
    
    Dickster
    

    Sorry bout the down time (complain to the Customer Svc's group)
    Couldn't get my TU81 fixed. 
    
    Jeff

    Dinz,
    
    Why don't ya quit pickin' on poor Roger for 1 minute.
    
    The last few games the Sox were merely emulating the Yanks
    but finally, some desperate fan gave them some smelling salts
    and woke 'em up.  The results were clearly evident in last
    nights game..................
    
    Wheel

    yea right 1-0.. big run support, wheel, be nice to me, i am going
    through a crisis, my daughters voice is changing!!!!!!!!
    
    shitttttttttttttttt
    

    Be nice to you?
    NEVER!!!!
    

    
    >   Sorry bout the down time (complain to the Customer Svc's group)

    No reason to apologize.  Youse moderators and technoweenies and
    other techno-support guys and gals have my utmost respect and support.
    
    I'm swelling with pride over you too.
    
    Dickster
    

    
    >>< Note 28.241 by WMOIS::JBARROWS "Wanted: Man in velcro pants!" >
                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    See Lufay.  I think velour pants come with velcro.
    
    Dickster
    

    Nah, velour and velcro don't stick together.......
    
    Thanks for da help!!!
    
    Wheel

    You think he's gonna put his money where his mouth is????
    
    ya know Dinz, ya can't back down from a dare, its not a *manly*
    thing to do.....
    

Dinz, just remember, the better part of valor is discretion.

And Dickster, you'd better put some ice on that wang, er, thang of
yours to keep the swelling down.  Even swelling wif pride can
be dangerous if it swells too much!

'Saw

    Yeah, if it swells too much it'll pop and there won't be anything
    left!!!!!

    	5-4-3, 5-4-3 double triple.  I wonder if anyone will play those
    numbers in some twin-trifecta action tonight?
    
    				/Don

�    numbers in some twin-trifecta action tonight?
    

I could get into a little twin action tonight.  Couple of Swedish
twins would be nice...  Oh, oh, you said trifecta.....  must be
meaning a little Spanish flavor there, eh Slasher?

I'm outta here....
'Saw

    
    tplay the 6-9 quinela  frankwa
    

Yankees mired in Steinbrenner's Scandal...

    Battling Bosox bounce back by Bluejays by beating Bi-guys� bigtime behind
    Bolton,Boggs...
    
    Yanks - yuck!  
    
    
    � bi-guys :== Twins

    Knudson missed the extra point last night in the sox game.. it went wide
    
    left... 13-0.. boddicker is coming back to earth after a strong
    start, A deal for  Scott  is close but they want  Naering.
    
    Mac,
    
    whats wrong with this team??
    
    
    
    dinz
    

    What's wrong with the Sox???
    
    
    THEY GOT YANKEE-ITIS!!!!!!!!!
    
    Wheel

    THEY WILL BE IN 4TH, WHENS THE SEASONS OVER...
    
    meaning the red_sox
    
    
    dinz
    

    It's too early to write them off entirely, but if Boddicker doesn't
    regain his first half form pretty soon the Sox are toast.  This
    morning's Globe reports that Mike has a 7.36 ERA since July 7th.
    
    
    py

>    It's too early to write them off entirely, but if Boddicker doesn't
>    regain his first half form pretty soon the Sox are toast.  This
>    morning's Globe reports that Mike has a 7.36 ERA since July 7th.
    
 
 Proves Tony Larussa was right....

 mike

    they cant seem to hit  either..... must be the moon in leo...
    

    o The Sox are merely losing all the games now at this point of the
      season so when they make it to the World Series, they'll win.
    
    o Wait till Dewey gets back....
    
    And Dinz, if its the moon in Leo what is it with the Yanks, the year
    in 1990???????   Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha (tm)
    
    Wheel

    set marker  28.265   ha
    

    Well if ya think I am a dreamer listen to this comment made by my
    mother last night:
    
    'Wouldn't it be nice if the Red Sox, Celtics, Patriots (she's really
    joking on this one) and Bruins all won this year?'
    
    Maybe I should have put this in the Sports Joke Topic????
    
    BTW, Sox are gonna take off soon, TRUST ME!
    
    Wheel

    
    ya, they are taking off on that plane that will lead them into 4th
    
    place....
    
    

    okay, okay arguing with you is a moot point, even if da Sox finish
    fourth (which they won't) at least it is better than LAST! HA!
    
    Wheel

    
    whos arguing, i just happen to disagree with ya wheel kid..
    

    Okay OLD man Dinz!!!!! hahaha
    
    Sox are gonna come alive, I'm tellin' ya now......wait and see!
    Saw Dewey lasted night on da news and he's starting to practice.
    
    Better start putting your money away for that case you owe /Don!
    
    Wheel

    
    Anybody got a score on this afternoon's game vs the Brewers?
    
    

    Sox 2 Brewers 0, Clemens complete game, 9 Ks, 1 BB, 3 hits.
    
    John

    Wheel,
    
    	The Sox only problem is that they are in the same division as the
    Orioles and Blue Jays.
    
    PaulaSue

    How can a team lose 15 out of 21 games and be tied for 1st place!!??
    
    
    
    
    
    John

Clemens is a bum.

Right Dinz?

daryll

    re Daryll, personal name:
    
    You too?  Congrats!  Alison and I just found out a couple days ago 
    that we'll be parents for the first time in the spring (probably around
    Opening Day next year).  
    
    
    Best of luck,
    Paul

    Somebody want to ask Dinz what Clemens record would be if the Red
    Sox had a closer?
    
    Mark.

    Hey Daryll, how 'bout dat Mike Boddicker!
    
    Mark.

Still gotta go some to get into Allan Anderson territory...

daryll 

>    Somebody want to ask Dinz what Clemens record would be if the Red
>    Sox had a closer?
    
    Mark.


 Or what it would be if Dinz had left well enough alone? ;^)

mike

Hey, all you Dads-to-be...

Congratulations.  I guess there weren't any (closed) flies on you!


But, gentlemen, remember.  Your part of the deal only took a couple
of minutes.  Your lady's part of the deal will take considerably
longer, and will get her more testy than you could ever imagine.

So, on those evenings when you come home and she greets you at the
door with a butcher knife and that Charles Manson look in her
eyes, demanding Ben 'n Jerry's Heathbar Crunch something in Vlasic
Pickles and topped with peanut butter, just go out and get her some.
Keep in mind the little bundle of joy that will be arriving, and
that will make you smile.

Also, pick a good name for the kid.  Names like Dewdrop, Leaf, Autumn,
Star, are so dweeby now.  If it's a boy, make sure the name is
a manly one.  Something like Joe, Mack, Bubba, or Biff is gonna strike
fear in the hearts of the other kids when he gets to be in 3rd grade.


Finally, don't forget to teach your kid about the important things
in life:  good nutrition, good beer, good sportsmanship, respect,
love, safe sex, Jack Daniels, and about never, never putting coat
hangers into live electrical outlets.


Hope this has shlepped,
Chainsaw (who hasn't had any, and probably wont' for a while....)

    Saw -
    
    Your manly names were good, but I'm partial to Vito, Nunzio, Guido,
    etc, you know, those fine ethnic names that are not an indication
    of any particular nationality but project a certain "if you don't
    give me your lunch money I'll make you throw up quicker than you
    thought humanly possible" kind of image that will hold your child
    in good company for his formative years.
    
    NAZZ

    clemens  is a average picture, i have to agree with Dinz
    
    

    < Note 28.285 by MSBVLS::REPRO >


>    clemens  is a average picture, i have to agree with Dinz

    He might be a_average picture, but he's a superlative 8x10 glossy.
    
    HTH,
    
    Mark.

    
    Dinz u using Ruthies account? You bumski!
    
    
    
    
    Steve_who_knows_better

    And after Clemens great performance, what dominated the sports page of
    the Hearld ?
    
    You got it, a petulant bashing session by some writer who was p.o.ed
    that Roger didn't inform the press that he wouldn't hold forth and kiss
    their a** .....
    
    Just another reason to despise the Boston media.

    Who did they give up for Marshall?

    Sox go 4-8 on this road trip and find themselves only a game back.
    Unreal.
    
    

    
    I think they picked Marshall up for nada. Not sure tho'.
    The Herald is a rag. Is the AL East still the AL least?
    
    
    
    
    Steve

 They gave up two or three minor leaguers for Marshall. Why? He's always
 been hurt. They certainly can't take Qunitana out of the lineup at first.
 Maybe they can play him in right but they just traded for Brunasky to that
 and if they DH him what's Evans going to say? The Soap Opera continue...

 Worcester writer Phil Oneil has suggest that trade Clemens now before they
 loose him. Makes sense to me. IMO the writers have a right to be pissed
 off at Roger. They wait an hour for him and then he sends word down that he
 isn't going to talk to them anyways. He could hace told them that in the
 first five minutes after the ballgame and all because the week before they
 report about him getting elbowed iced after two week before he's complaining
 about a heavy arm? The guy is a first class jerk and probably the biggest
 crybaby to ever play in Boston and that's saying a lot.....

 for the record Boggs is hitting 291  ;^)....

 Mac thanks for Gooden comments a while back, he's won 8 straight since
 then.... ;^)

mike 

    RE. -1   Clemens
    
    Mike and you'd still love to have him on your beloved Indians.
    
    
    
    Tom

    
    Sox blast Tiger pitching for 18 hits including a new record 12
    doubles.  Broke the old Tiger record of 11 doubles in a game.
    
    Sox and Tigers split the series 2 - 2.
    
    \pjb

 Tom, you couldn't be more wrong. I'd rather have a team that gets along
 than pampered, whinny stars who still loose. Of course I'm not an owner
 trying to make bucks. If the Indians or Mets traded for Clemens, I'd root
 for other teams....

 mike 

    I thought everyone knew that Roger wasn't talking to the press
    anymore.  Why did a reporter wait around for an hour?
    
� Tom, you couldn't be more wrong. I'd rather have a team that gets along
� than pampered, whinny stars who still loose. 
    
    With Darryl Strawberry in the outfield, how do you manage to be a Mets'
    fan?  And as far as "still loose", since Clemens arrived the Sox have 2
    division titles and a pennant.  Add to that a few All Star team
    selections, an MVP, and 2 Cy Youngs.

    
    Don't trade Clemens... please...  I'd rather see the Sox lose him
    to free agency for a 1st round draft pick.

>    I thought everyone knew that Roger wasn't talking to the press
>    anymore.  Why did a reporter wait around for an hour?
 
 week to week thing up here Mac. If he wins and he's in a good mood he talks.
 if he looses forget it. if they print something bad about him forget it.
    
    
>    With Darryl Strawberry in the outfield, how do you manage to be a Mets'
>    fan?  


 Well Darryl has had his mouments they seem to be few and far between now that
 Davey is gone. Also I guess the fact that I don't read a lot of NY newspapers
 or hear NY sportsnews I may miss the day to day trials and trivulations
 of Darryl so I'm able to remain a fan. Here everyday it seems like King Roger
 has something else to say, some new ax to grind or some new excuse for his
 performance. Also again I'm not the owner if I was I trade Darryl.

>    And as far as "still loose", since Clemens arrived the Sox have 2
>    division titles and a pennant.  Add to that a few All Star team
>    selections, an MVP, and 2 Cy Youngs.

 Nice indivdual awards there but it seems to me that their two division titles
 and pennant were won inspite of Roger and not because of him. His best years
 they did squittly. Last year during the pennant race of August he was lost in
 a six game loosing streak if I remember correctly. He certainly did well
 against the A's last year in the league championship series didn't he?

 What's his post season record? 

mike

    Sox won the pennant in spite of Roger Clemens?  What in the world were
    all of those sportswriters thinking of when they voted him the MVP that
    year?
    
    And to those who still contend that Roger can't pitch in the clutch, I
    ask that you look at the Rocket's record after a Sox loss.

    re .297
    
    Gronowski, you're mad because Swindell is sipping gallons of pond-scum 
    this year ....
    
    re Roger,
    
    The media makes him The King, and last time I looked, all a player is
    paid to do is play. Period. Not put up with small-minded, petualnt,
    ego-tripping idiots who when *THEY* decide to have a temper tantrum,
    trash you over the papers for years.
    
    They ran Steve Carlton into seclusion, George Hendrick as well. I'd
    like to see some of these noters take the Boston media's garbage as
    well. 
    
    Given the long list of Boston players who have had bellicose relations
    with writers, I have to believe that the players are not most of the
    problem, IMO.

    
    The Indians have not lost in Swindell's last 9 starts... he's gone
    4-0 or 5-0 with a bunch of no decision's and a 2.7? ERA...  he
    might sip... but he doesn't guzzle like the Astros or any other
    teams you might currently be riding on...
    
    Get a life pal... you told me you were going to destroy me in a
    rotis league this year... what's your excuse?
    

    Big Mac,
    
    IMO, Clemens winnig the MVP was a joke, and he won it for the noteriety
    of 'no one has ever done it before'.   And, in the World Series
    when they needed him, he sipped, and he did in the champeenship
    series.  Roger is a great individual, but he'll never be a team
    leader or a team player.  Because of that, the only way Rogerwill
    ever get a champeenship ring is if he goes to a team and is carried
    along by real team players.
    
    He's a great pitcher, but IMO, he's one of the most, if not THE
    most, overrated player in baseball.  
    
    jD

 Mac, if the team is 30 games out and Clemems wins after a loosing streak
 how in the world does prove he can pitch in the clutch? Now I know the
 Soxs haven't been 30 out for a long time but I think you can see my point.

 I think JD stated the MVP pretty well as for my own belief, I don't care if
 a pitcher goes 30-3 with 340 strikeouts there is no how no way he deserves
 to be MVP when he doesn't play everyday or in this case even bat. Even if
 an NL pitcher had that kind of record and even hit a few game winners for
 himself, I'd have hard time buying it....

 mike 

Clemens shuts out Chisox. Sox win 3-0 and keep pace with Jays.

Clemens unscored upon in 23 consecutive innings.

daryll

 Anyone still doubt the power of the KOD?  ;^)....

 mike

    The bum threw another shutout last night, making it 23 consecutive
    scoreless innings.  I agree with DrM.  The Boston press is worse than a
    tub full of piranhas.  
    
    Mike C. - would you say Ted Williams was a bum too?  He was labelled
    a head case himself by the Boston media.
    
    Personally, I'd just as soon see Clemens pull a Steve Carlton.  I don't
    care if he says another word, as long as he gets along with his teammates, 
    and continues to pitch the way he has for the past five years.
    
    					Steve
                         

    
>    Mike C. - would you say Ted Williams was a bum too?  He was labelled
>    a head case himself by the Boston media.
 
 Tough for me to say Steve because I wasn't quite old enough to read all
 about the on goings of ted Williams during his time. While I agree the 
 boston press isn't the greatest and loves to attack I still think Clemens
 has brought alot of it on himself.

 One day he talks then he doesn't and it's always related to his pitching 
 effort.

 The main reasons I consider him a bum are these, if and when he looses he
 always has an excuse and has gone as low as to blame his teamates at time.
 He blasted managment (sure they deserve it) but they do bend over backwards
 for him. He blasts the city but most of all my biggest beef is have you
 ever seen this guy do any charity work around here? Anything for the kids
 who idolize him?

 I just don't happen to believe he is the best pitcher in baseball either
 for which I take most of this crap.

 Ted Williams may have been a headcase but I don't believe he was wishy washy
 with his dealing with the press and atleast he has return something to the
 community....

mike

I don't think that a dominant year by a pitcher is, by itself enough to warrant
consideration for the mvp. However, when a pitcher has a dominant year and leads
his team to the series I think they should get MVP consideration. 

Clemens did nothing else but lead the Sox to the series in '86. Especially 
when he was coming off major surgery and not expected to do much. 

IMHO...I don't care whether Clemens ever talks to the media again. All I want to
see is him on the mound every 5th day and in a Sox uniform for the rest of his
career. IMNSHO he should be the top payed pitcher in baseball and amongst the 
top payed players in the game. Granted he didn't have a great series in '86 but
his contributions over his career in a hitters park mark him as one of the
best in the game.

Fortunately the pitching position in baseball is one where you can afford to 
have an ego because you rely on yourself more than anybody. I've been the first
to jump on Boggs because of what I deem his selfish hitting style. This I feel 
does not benefit the team. However Clemens is payed to go to the mound and 
get people out. He does it, he does it well and that is all that matters....


Metz

    
    	I took my 11 year old son to the ball game last night. It wasn't
    the first time he'ld been but I think it's the first time he really
    understood what was going on and appreciated the game. We go to
    Pawtucket fairly often and most of you who have been to McCoy know
    that it's fairly easy to get autographs and talk to the players.
    Well my son couldn't understand why it would be any different at
    Fenway (forgive him, I tried to explain about the lunkheads who
    play ball here) so after the game I took him to the players gate
    and we stood there and watched the players drive out. Some of the
    White Sox players weren't taking the bus to the hotel and they walked
    out and signed autographs and talked to us for a while(Sammy Sosa
    is a real nice guy - Steve Lyons is wierd but he was great with
    my son). The rest of this little tale has two parts to it. Both
    are exactly what I saw and heard but each shows different sides
    of Roger Clemens. 
    	Now all the time we were standing around the gate to the players
    lot was open. Jody Reed stood at the gate and talked to folks for
    awhile but refused to sign autographs. Not one of the Red Sox players
    took the time to stop and sign. There were maybe 15-20 people there
    most of them kids. About 45 minutes after the game most of these
    people started to filter away. There were now maybe 7 or 8 people
    there. All of a sudden one of the clubhouse kids comes through the
    lot carrying two enormous suitcases (This kid was about 6 foot tall
    and 200 lbs and he was really struggling). He placed them in Roger's
    car. The security guards closed the gate. Roger, without any yelling
    or screaming from the folks who were left came over, opened the
    gate and signed autographs and talked to us for about fifteen minutes.
    What I noticed was security guards and clubhouse employees doing
    things for Clemens they didn't do for anyone else. I also found
    a nice guy who was willing to give a few minutes after a hard days
    work to a few kids who waited just to get a glimpse of any player.
    
                       
    One other rather funny point, When Roger finished signing and was
    starting back towards his car there was one other car in the lot.
    One of the little girls who was standing there asked whose it was.
    Roger said " I'm the last player to leave tonight. That's Lou Gorman's
    car. He's probably on the phone."
    

That Roger Clemens.. what an overrated, egotistical, self-centered,
kid-hating, park-effected, late-season-losing, SOB.   Where can we
get 4 more like him?

I watched the Sox-Sox game last night on WGN from the 6th inning on
and at the end I said to my wife, "I can't understand where people
get the idea that Roger is not a team player.  Same for Boggs, too."

After Jody Reed made a nice play to end a late inning, Clemens waited
for him to give him a handshake.     And whenever anybody hits a home
run, Boggs is nearly always the first guy up in the dugout to greet 
him.

These guys may have large egos, but they are arguably the best at 
what they do.  We have no idea what they go through on a day-to-day
basis.   

I hope Roger continues to excel and at the same time screw with the
local press.  They deserve everything they get.

Anyone catch the latest feud between the McDonoughs and the (Mc)Barretts?

Apparently, Will McDonough had been trashing Barrett in the Globe recently,
so Marty happened to bring the subject up with Sean McDonough {the Sox
TV announcer}.  A heated exchange took place and was reported in the Herald.
Will's next two columns in the Globe each had strong anti-Barrett "stories."

I think Will's losing it.  He came out with a big scoop about Dwight Evans
retiring because his back was so bad and how he didn't want to wait until
the end of the season.  Guess who was in the lineup last night?   And when
another Globe reporter quoted Evans as saying he had no intention of retiring
{without mentioning McDonough}, Will came back a couple days later with a 
story about how surprised Red Sox management was that Dewey wasn't retiring.

Steve Lyons is definitely one of baseball's characters.  

I used to talk with him when he was on the AA New Britain Red Sox.
He *always* took time to talk with anyone and everyone after the game.
He'd answer questions that must have sounded dumb to someone playing ball
for a living, and he always did it with great and style.

He may never make the HoF, but he's given me some memories that will be
passed on to any grandchildren I may have with a smile and a laugh
at the fun part of baseball.

Just as I'll always remember Pudge Fisk for his retort when, because
the Sox were short of third basemen, Pudge went in at third.  My
buddy yelled out "So, Pudge, when was the last time you played third?"

Without missing a beat, Pudge yelled back up "Little league"...

I believe it's little things like that which you remember about baseball,
and are truly important parts of our National Pastime....

'Saw

    re:  Steve Lyons
    
    The older kids have affectionately labeled my son "Psycho" recently.
    No, he didn't pull down his pants like Lyons, but if you knew this kid,
    you'd know why.....  :-)
    
    Hawk

   A regular chip off the old blockhead, hey Hawk?

   Heh, heh, heh,
   Couldn't resist

   Mike JN

   PS -  No offense intended to blockheads in general, or in particular.

    Ha!  yeah, everyone refers back to me when they see my kid and learns
    of his new name.....  :-)
    
    BOSTON RED SOX is this note so, what do you fans think of this new kid
    just brought up a couple weeks ago.  Is he going to stay on as a
    regular for many seasons to come?
    
    Hawk

Hawk, we're glad to see that you are carrying on the freakin Lunatic
tradition with the fruit of your loins.

This new kid...would that be Naehring or whatever his name is?  Haven't
seen enough of him to know.  So making a prediction would not be
prudent at this juncture.


This not was not intended to be offensive to freakinlunatics, fruits,
or loins, nor should it be constrewn as a commitment on my part to
predict anything concerns Red Sox players in the future.

'Saw

    Naehring has the tools to become an everyday major league player.  
    Sox personnel often compare him to Cal Ripken, IF he pans out.  
    I've been to two games since he's been called up and saw him hit his
    first homer, a shot to left-center.  He has power, is enthusiastic, 
    has a good glove and a strong arm.  He came out of nowhere about a 
    year and a half ago.  I think he's about 23.
    
    					Steve

    
    August 1st and the Sox are tied for first, despite going something
    like 6-19 in their last 25 games.
    
    The "fat lady", however, is taking voice training and packing her
    bags for the dreaded Left Coast engagement Aug. 7 thru 15th.
    
    BTW, has anyone ever seen the proverbial "fat lady" and Roseanne
    Barr in the same place?  Could it be...?   Nahhh....
    
    Dickster
    

    Roseanne, my ex-babe, has done a studio version of the Star Spangled
    Banner with her husband to be aired on today's Raphael Jesse Sally's
    show.  She did this in total seriousness and offering it as her public
    apology to all offended Americans.  Don't know whether she actually
    apologizes or not.......
    
    Hawk

While Roseanne's singing is not in any way sports related, I will
digress momentarily to say that most of the reaction around here
was that Roseanne is a comedienne, not a singer, and the person
who should be taking most of the heat is the person who arranged
to have her sing in the first place.

Perhaps she could have sung the SPORTS anthem instead:

	
		Oh give me a home, where the junk notes don't roam
		And the notes don't get hidden away,
		Where never is heard, a disparaging word,
		And differences are valued all day


Chainsaw_Scott_Key

    
    HAHA.  Great tune 'Saw.
    
    Now, bailiff, whack his pee-pee if it's not already "set hidden".
    
    Dickster
    

The Red Sox beat the White Sox last night behind the pitching of 
Dana Kiecker, 7-2.   Wade Boggs has been effective so far in the 
#3 slot, driving in a run for the third straight game.

If the Sox can win the AL East, Joe Morgan deserves Manager of
the Year.   That is assuming the White Sox don't take the West.

    
    Boggs is now hitting like he's on a mission to get those 200 hits
    again this year.  As a side dish, he's also knocking in some runs
    and batting somewhere in the high 300's with men in scoring position.
    Tsk. Tsk.  How selfish. ;^)
    
    He now needs around 85 more hits in (not sure) 54 games to do it,
    but if he avoids all injury, I believe he has the mindset and the
    ability to do it.  If he can chip away to, say, 20 more hits with
    a dozen games to go, I think he'll make it.
    
    Dickster
    

    Dickster, you must be making that up.  Wade Boggs, a well known selfish
    non clutch hitter, has a higher BA with men on base than he does an
    overall BA.

    
    Mighty Lou has done it again. He has put a supposedly healthy
    (at least according to himself) Wes Gardner on the DL and signed...
    
    Joe Hesketh...
    
    Former Brave, Former Expo, and hopefully soon to be former Red Sox.
    
    It has to be the curse of Jack Billingham. Lou has to sign every
    misfit project discarded by other teams in hopes of finding that
    one guy who has a little gas left. Reports are that Mr. Hesketh
    will bring his 5.81 ERA in 31 appearances and 5 saves to the Sox
    bullpen and "help" Rob Murphy. 
    
    Lou, how gullible do you think we are? Better yet, how gullible
    do you think the rest of the league is?
    
    Santa, please bring Jean Yawkey to her senses and bring us a real
    GM....
    
    

    Wade Boggs is a one dimensional, egotistical, me first, non team
    player.   Always has been, always will be.   He hits for average,
    but does nothing else well.  He's perhaps the most overrated hitter
    in the history of the game.
    
    Doug, I can't understand how you can like a one dimensional player
    like Boggs - I thought you didn't like one dimensional players....
    
    He can't play defense, unless the ball is hit right at him - he
    has the range of a legless moose, he moves like a slug with training
    wheels, he has less power than Pee Wee Herman, and he never comes
    through in the clutch - witnessed by his stellar play in the ALCS.
    
    He's another player who will never wear a champeenship ring, unless
    he ends up on another team that can carry his bags.
    
    JD

    
    Jd your a piece of work!
    
    
    
    
    Steve

>    Wade Boggs is a one dimensional, egotistical, me first, non team
>    player.   Always has been, always will be.   He hits for average,
>    but does nothing else well.  He's perhaps the most overrated hitter
>    in the history of the game.

You'll have to try harder, JD... I'm not going to bite.  You just called
Roger Clemens the most overrated pitcher the other day.  You gotta try and
let go of that Boston-based anger.     

What does Wade Boggs's or Roger Clemens' personality have to do with their
ability and performance as baseball players?   
    
>    Doug, I can't understand how you can like a one dimensional player
>    like Boggs - I thought you didn't like one dimensional players....

I don't value them in basketball where deficiencies can be covered up
by other players.

>    He can't play defense, unless the ball is hit right at him - he
>    has the range of a legless moose, he moves like a slug with training
>    wheels, he has less power than Pee Wee Herman, and he never comes
>    through in the clutch - witnessed by his stellar play in the ALCS.

JD's version of "Field of Dreams".   

	"If I say it, it must be true"

Boggs is no worse than the second best leadoff hitter of the 80's and
an above average major league third baseman according to people who know
a little more about the game than you or I.   If you can bring yourself
to examine him in that context, you might be able to be more objective.
Power is a non-factor.   As a leadoff hitter, look at OBA, Runs.     

"Never comes thru in the clutch" is just another baiting phrase.  It's
your definition of clutch.    And at least he has been a key factor in
getting the team to that situation.    

>    He's another player who will never wear a champeenship ring, unless
>    he ends up on another team that can carry his bags.

Rings, shmings.   In evaluating individuals, rings don't mean a thing.
There's plenty of good players without them {Mattingly springs to mind}.

    Dickster is right!!!!!!  Boggs needs a lot more hits!  I saw this
    watching a game, was it last week??
    
    The announcer said he had about the same # of hits last year around
    the same time and mangaged to get 200 in.
    
    I believe they said it would be his 8th continuous year with 200+
    hits.....something only a few greats ball players have done!
    
    Wheel
    

    I'm fairly certain that should Boggs get #200 he will be the ONLY
    person to do it 8 consecutive times.
    
    The Wizard

    Doug,
    
    Bogggs is an average 3rd baseman, at best.  He matadors any ball
    that causes him to move in a way that he might perspire.  
    
    ANd remember, no Boston anger in me - I love the town, love the
    Sox.  
    
    Boggs and Clemens are overrated, but so are all boston sports folks
    - oh wait, I forgot, only other cities overrate their players....
    
    Lets see, the Sox have the 2nd best leadoff hitter of the 80's,
    who is the best hitter in baseball in boggs, the best pitcher ever
    in Clemens, the MVP man in center, the next Cal Ripkin at short,
    etc., yet they caint win the big ones.  Hmmm, why is that.  Perhaps
    you need to look no further than the Ego twins, Boggs and Clemens.
    They put themselves first, the team last.   
    
    JD

�    Bogggs is an average 3rd baseman, at best.  He matadors any ball
�    that causes him to move in a way that he might perspire.  
    
    C'mon JD, you can't really believe that.  I guess you must have missed
    that defensive display of his in the All Star game.
    
�    They put themselves first, the team last.   
    
    Baseball is a team of individuals.  There are a few things I'll never
    understand about statements like the one above.  How is a player who is
    doing the best he can at what he does (and is one of the best at what
    he does) putting himself above the team?  How can a pitcher who has
    publically said that he will stick up for his teammates and then
    delivered on it be putting himself above the team?  Sorry, baseball
    doesn't have situations that require setting a key block for a score,
    or dishing off and setting a pick for another player to get the winning
    basket.  

One thing that I can appreciate about Boggs is the fact that he
worked and works very hard on his defensive skills.  He has improved
tremendously since he first came up.

Is he a natural defensive 3rd baseman?  No.  But he worked hard to get
where he is.  He could have just tried to get along with his phenomenal
hitting skills, but he felt he needed to be a rounded player to 
succeed in the game.

Players are human beings.  Ted Williams always got the rap that he
was cold.  Others have been rapped for other things.  Limelight does
funny things to people -- sometimes it truly changes them, other
times it causes the way people see what are normal human foibles
to change.  Thus a person who is typically shy and reserved can
be labelled cold and standoffish.

We should always try to remember to put ourselves in their places
before we make value judgements. 

How many times have any of you snapped at a co-worker, whether out
of frustration with a situation at home, a car that doesn't run right,
or Uncle Sam taking so much of your paycheck.  Now, imagine the
same situation in major league baseball.  You're still a human being,
you're still frustrated, but now you've got a million presshounds telling
the world that you're a prima dona who snaps at your teammates because
you think you're better than they are....

JMHO,
Chainsaw

>    Bogggs is an average 3rd baseman, at best.  He matadors any ball
>    that causes him to move in a way that he might perspire.  

	Total fabrication.   You can keep saying it a hundred times,
	but it looks more foolish each time.   Your "analysis" of
	Boggs' defensive skills goes 180� against the general, informed
	view.
    
>    Boggs and Clemens are overrated, but so are all boston sports folks
>    - oh wait, I forgot, only other cities overrate their players....

	I've never understood what "overrated" means.   Are you talking
	about the lunatic fringe who wouldn't trade Boggs for Will Clark
	and Kevin Mitchell without Matt Williams thrown in?   Or are you
	speaking of those hometown fans who greatly appreciate the talents
	of those players who they see most often?    Who cares?
    
>    Lets see, the Sox have the 2nd best leadoff hitter of the 80's,
>    who is the best hitter in baseball in boggs, the best pitcher ever
>    in Clemens, the MVP man in center, the next Cal Ripkin at short,
>    etc., yet they caint win the big ones.  Hmmm, why is that.  Perhaps
>    you need to look no further than the Ego twins, Boggs and Clemens.
>    They put themselves first, the team last.   

	You've finally convinced me, JD.  You can quote me, "Clemens 
	and Boggs suck".   

	But, since I'm joining your side, let's add some other teams
	and players to our hate-list.

        New York Yankees had Don Mattingly - "The Best Player in Baseball"
	  and Dave Righetti - a record setting reliever, for several years
	   and couldn't even do as well as the Sox.   Suck.

	Utah Jazz - Karl Malone and John Stockton... They make up a larger
	percentage of the team, yet they both bite the big one cause they
	suck in the clutch... And we all know about Karl Malone's ego.  Suck.

	Chicago Cubs - Ryne Sandberg... voted most exciting player in NL
		this year by baseball personnel.  Last place.   Suck.

	New York Knicks.  Pat Ewing.  Suck.

	Los Angeles Kings.  Wayne Gretzky.  Suck.

	I've seen the light.   Two players {one who can only affect 
	20% of the outcomes of the games in a season, the other who
	score more runs than any other} are the cause.

    >C'mon JD, you can't really believe that.  I guess you must have missed
    >that defensive display of [Boggs] in the All Star game.
    
    Yes, JD, didn't that stop he made on a grounder (the one where he left
    his feet and got his uniform all dirty, even though most major league
    3Bs make the play on their feet) in this year's All Star game wipe your
    mind clean of a career of being a statue in the field?  Well, didn't
    it??
    
    He also hit a homer in last year's All Star game, which instantly makes
    him one of the games great power hitters in the eyes of some.
    
    By the way, Boggs is keeping his career record of home and away hitting
    intact this year.  Some will continue to believe that the park has
    nothing to do with it.
    
    Dan
    

    Except, Dan, that those defensive plays shown in the All Star game (and
    there was more than a grounder), are the rule not the exception.

I'll have to say I agree with neither of the two camps in regards to Boggs 
defensive abilities...

He was a well below average 3rd baseman defensively when he came to the bigs.
He ahs improved himself immensely to the point where he is an average 3rd baseman
now. He doesn't butcher balls hit to him like Garry Sheffield but he doesn't 
have the great range to be an excellent 3rd baseman. 

He is an adequate fielder in a position that most managers rely on for offensive
ability rather than defensive ability. Third base is probably the 7th or 8th
easiest defensive position in the game (arguments between lf and 3rd as easier)
Pitcher the 9th easiest....


Metz

    Apparently JD's rememberances of Boggs post-season offensive
    performances have caused him to overlook the defensive contributions he
    made during those series.
    
    3B 7th or 8th most important position defensively?  That's a new one on
    me.

    Mac,
    
    I always thought team chemistry was an important part of any team
    sport.   If a team is just a bunch of individuals, it will go no
    where - which is where the Sox are going.
    
    
    Doug,
    
    A simplification.  My comment was based towards the boston media/fans
    that I heard for the 13 years I lived there - Boston always seems
    to have the greatest players to ever breathe, but never goes anywhere.
    I'm just giving back criticisms that we, who are from different
    parts of the country, have had to hear from Boston fans concerning
    other teams and players.  
    
    Re Boggs fielding - wow, he makes a good play every eon or so and
    he's canonized as a Brooks Robinson.  Geez - that's a PERFECT example
    of typical BoSox fans' view.   Wade is, as I said, average at best
    in the field.  He has absolutely no range...
    
    JD

    Sheet, when I first read JD's note I thought it was sarcastic in tone,
    but obviously not.
    
    JD, as far as I know, nobody in this note has stated that Roger Clemens
    is the "best pitcher ever", or that Tim Naehring is the next Cal
    Ripken, or that Ellis Burkes is the AL MVP, as you stated in .332.  
    
    Who's doing the exagerating now?
    
    Anyway, back to the subject.
    
    The Sox have been very fortunate to date considering their pitching
    rotation.  Career minor leaguers are pitching as never expected as has
    journeyman, Greg Harris.  I don't know if this is complimentary to
    Bill Fisher, Tony Pena, the demise of hitting in the A.L., or a
    combination of all the above.  Whatever the case, they're holding my
    interest.  Morgan has made his share of mistakes, but managing in Boston 
    isn't easy.  The fans are so obsessed with winning it all, that 
    everyone's a supposed expert.
    
    					Steve

    JD,
    
    Chemistry in a team is great, unfortunately it is not the only
    pre-requisite.  If the players are lousy then the chemistry 
    means nothing!
    
    Wheel

    Steve,
    
    Yes, my original note was sarcastic in nature.  All the things I
    said I've heard one place or the other (The RED SOX conference,
    perhaps....).
    
    
    Anyway, back to the Red Sox - they are in town soon (I think) and
    plan to go to as many of the games as I can.
    
    Joe Hesketh is not the answer - unless the change in leagues helps
    him a lot.  I've seen him 3 times this year, and have seen him pitch
    batting practice each time.   This guy couldn't stand getting booed
    in Montreal - imagine what Fenway will do to him.
    
    JD

    I'm going to my first Sox game in about 5 or six years at Fenway
    tonight.  Does anyone know who's pitching tonight(haven't seen a
    newspaper  or the news in over a week.
    
    TomR

    Tom Bolton is pitching for Boston.
    
    Mark.

    Thanks Mark.
    

>    Tom Bolton is pitching for Boston.


	or as NESN has been sayin Boston's new left ace, Tom Bolton.

mc

    JD, you want to point out where I said that Boggs is a Brooks Robinson,
    or even where I said that he is the best 3b in baseball?  Maybe you
    should just relax.  This crusade you are on to compensate for the
    alleged overrating of Boston players is going to turn you into a raving
    lunatic.

    Mac,
    
    You never said it, it was an embellishment on my part.  I still
    think Wade is good at one thing only - hitting.  And he's damn good
    at it, at that there is no question.   I still feel he's a me-first
    person, more interested in his precious stats then with the team's
    record.
    
    He's what I call a true, blue, rotis owner's dream player.  Puts
    up great stats, keeps the stat hounds happy, helps a rotis player
    (rotis being a total stats game - takes the human element completely
    out of the game...).
    
    And finally, IMO, Wade's a perfect example of this conference -
    because if Wade was on the Yankees or Mets, and not the Red Sox,
    he'd forever be labeled an overrated, egotistical head case.
    
    JD

    
>    3B 7th or 8th most important position defensively?  That's a new one on
>    me.


yup...here's my list in order of importance and reasons why...

1 catcher - calls the game, handles the ball every pitch, needs good arm for
		throwing out base stealers, has to be quick to field the bunt.

2 ss	- Needs great range on ground balls, great throwing arm for throws deep
		in the hole, Needs to be able to turn the DP and make tags on
		attempted base stealers. takes cutoff throws.

3 centerfield - needs speed to cover much ground, needs to be quick to get a
		jump on well hit balls, needs good arm for throws to 2nd,3rd and
		home.

4 2nd base - much the same as SS but doesn't need as good an arm. Must turn a
		more difficult dp and have decent range. Takes cutoff throws and
		cover 2nd on steals.

5 rf 	- needs excellent throwing arm to make the throw to 3rd, good arm for
		throws to 2nd and home. Good speed to catch balls tailing away.
		Usually a better much better fielder than lf.

6 1st base - doesn't need great range but must field 10+ throws a game from 
		infield. Must start off difficult 3-6-3 dp. Must be able to 
		cover bunt. Must be able to move off the bag and cover position 
		after holding runner on base. Must be able to decide when 
		stretch is needed and execute it.

7 or 8 3rd base - doesn't need great range, Most balls are reaction plays. Needs
		good reactions and a good throwing arm but only on slow choppers
		Has to be able to cover bunt. Doesn't see to many fielding 
		chances per game. Doesn't get involved in many steal efforts,
		doesn't get involved in much cutoff action. (whenever they let
		a hot shot get past them announcers always cover up :-) :-)

7 or 8 rf - doesn't need great speed usually, weaker throwing arm needed for 
		throws to 3rd, Usually the place where most teams hide their
		weakest defensive player

9 Pitcher -	Out there to pitch and not field. A good fielding pitcher can 
		help himself by fielding comebackers and bunts well. As well as
		backing up the play...


Feel free to discuss....

These are just my opinions..............


          Metz

 Excellent arguments Metz can't say I disagree with your reasoning...

 could it have something do with the fact that I catch? :^)

mike

    I was a catcher, also.  Loved every minute of it.
    
    Another reason why the catcher is the most important defensive position
    is that all the other eight players face him.  He is the man who calls
    the shots.  Plus, home plate is where the runs are scored so the last
    line of defense is always the most important.
    
    Just my biased opinion ...
    
    Bob Hunt

Yeah Bob and sometimes those shots don't get heard. Tonights' game we had
a guy dead at the plate and the pitcher cut the ball off. I thought I was
supposed to yell cut if I wante it cut? :^)

even still the runner stopped and we had em dead in a pickle except the
pitcher dropped the ball...

oh well we won anyways so it wasn't that costly...

mike

    Wade Boggs had 3 hits last night, 2 of which were clearly
    selfish........  :-)
    
    Hawk

    That makes about 118 hits for Wade!

In my time I've played CF, C, RF and 1B.

I'd say the hardest to play was catcher, but part of that was that
I'm a lefty.  At any rate, the calling the shots part of it is tough
too.  More than any other fielder, I think, the catcher must play
that "what if" game when players are on base.

CF was hard also, because of the arm.  I used to have a good arm.
Can't pitch worth a darn, but could always get the ball within
the catchers reach.  Also had good range -- not much speed, but an
excellent jump.

I will go on record however as saying the hardest thing, I think,
in baseball, is throwing a runner out at 3rd, from RF.  Just being
heads up enough to know when to try for it, and then doing it, are
very hard.

1B was fun.  Always have that old dilemma though -- stretch or short
hop.

I guess I liked CF the best....

Thanks for letting me reminisce...

'Saw

    > 79 hits to reach 200 (again)
    
    How many of those would be considered selfish hits?  :-)
    
    Hawk

    All of them ;^)

    Metz, I'd move RF way up to number 3.
    
    The RF typically sees balls talingin away (from right-handed batters)
    and has the longest throws due to his distance from 3b.
    
    Mark.

    
    I agree with Mark. But that might be a Red Sox prejudice. We tend
    to hide our weakest defensive player in Left Field.
    

 But how many chances does a rf see in a game? Not as many as center or
 second that's why I agree with Metz. While the ball does tail away most
 experienced rf know this and adjust accordingly.

 mike    

 Also the centerfielder must back up both the lf and rf in case of the
 occasional error, which happen quite frequently in lf at fenway ;^)

mike

The reasons I put Rf low was because of the # of chances they handle a ball
in a game, Less range required than CF and not as much thought/decision
making ability required as 2nd.

They do need to have an excellent arm to make the long throw to 3rd but it
doesn't happen that often and a good right fielder can keep a man from taking 
3rd of reputation alone....


Metz

I disagree.  RF, at Fenway anyway, is very tough to play.

That's because if you screw up, there's a toofless bearded mountain
man, and 12 kids from Mefaa ready to tell him he's a waste of skin...

Or is that a ParkDefect(tm)?

'Saw

   Wade Boggs is god.... and  JD knows  it. He's just trying to get people
   riled up. In fact, JD has a small shrine to Wade hidden behind a secret
   sliding panel in his living room.

   Wow! Seven years (heading for eight) of over 200 selfish hits per year.
   What a greedy little pig! 

   Mike JN

   No offense blah blah pigs, hitters, blah blah wade's mother, blah etc.

    I dunno, but I always thought that teams put a big slow lummox at 1st 
    since it is an easier position than 3rd.  1B does not need an arm or
    very good range, however, he needs to be able to work the feet around
    the bag and know whether he should stretch or take the short hop. He
    also needs to have decent hands, but that goes with any position.
    
    At 3B, he needs to have more range, a better arm, and quicker reflexes.
    With a RH pull hitter, it can be downright dangerous. Look at how many 
    3B have made theswitch to 1B later in their careers. Tony Perez and
    George Brett come to mind, but obviously there are a ton of others.
    
    Tom

    Tom, thank you for the "big slow lummox".  Ever since that World Series
    where the Cardinals got shafted and lost to Kansas City, I've been
    seeking the correct terminology to describe Steve Balboni.  And "big
    slow lummox" is it exactly, to a T!
    
    Actually, you should (tm) balboni as the substitute for "big slow
    lummox".......
    
    :-)
    
    Hawk

    That one just came to me... The kind of guys I had in mind were Boog
    Powell, George Scott, Frank Howard, and definitely Balboni. Funny thing
    about Frank Howard is that he's as skinny as a rail these days. I saw
    him in spring training before the '89 season (Yankee hitting coach) and
    had a chance to talk with him. I remember seeing him with the Washinton
    Senators & he and Ted Williams would have batting practice HR contests.
    
    Waht does a ball cost, $2? No wonder the Seantors lost money & had to
    move to Texas!
    
    Tom

    > Boog Powell, George Scott, Frank Howard, Balboni.....
    
    Add Harmon Killebrew.  Actually, Balboni shouldn't be included in this
    particular group of lummoxes.  At least these guys could hit......
    
    Hawk

    >Except, Dan, that those defensive plays shown in the All Star game (and
    >there was more than a grounder), are the rule not the exception.
    
    I believe you.  Not because you said it, understand.  But because the
    Tooth Fairy told me so.
    
    If only my eyes would stop showing me reality...
    
    Dan

    
    Of course we all know that Don Mattingly is the best player in 
    baseball, even this season! 
    
    
    
    Steve

    That selfish bum Wade Boggs showed his true colors lasted night.
    With Quintana on first, Morgan called for a hit and run. What did
    Mr. Selfish do?? Promptly laced a ball into RF to move Carlos to 3rd.
    Wow. Imagine that. 
    
    			Rich
    

Gawd, what a heinous display of ergegiously selfish hitting!

�     -< Boggs keeps getting gypped out of Gold Gloves.  Poor Wade.  Poor >-
    
    True.  There was the season that he finished 2nd to a declining George
    Brett.

    Gold golves is a garbage award... Just like the world chumps of boxing.
    Its a popularity contest... Range means nothing... A good firstbaseman
    saves a lot of errors for the infield...
    
    REK

    >True.  There was the season that he finished 2nd to a declining George
    >Brett.
    
    Brett may have been declining, but Boggs never approached Brett with
    the glove, and the truth be told, Brett was far from spectacular with
    it.  He just was the best with it at the position in the post-Nettles,
    pre-Gaetti years.
    
    Most of Wade's fielding impressions are courtesy of the Boston press. 
    He has already peaked and at his best was a slightly better than
    average 3B with the glove.  Always had a powerful arm though, which is
    flashy, but not so important at the hot corner.
    
    Most Boston and Boggs fans allow themselves to be easily fooled by
    false impressions (such as the All Star game, and consistent kind
    articles).  It's a good thing I'm around to straighten you guys out.
    
    Dan
                     

    Anyone got a spare set of hip-boots I can borrow in this note?
    
    Dan, you're so full of it lately, you're tarnishing your image in
    here.  How one can tarnish bullsh*t I'll never know, but you're
    doing it!  :*)
    
    Lee

>    Most of Wade's fielding impressions are courtesy of the Boston press. 
>    He has already peaked and at his best was a slightly better than
>    average 3B with the glove.  Always had a powerful arm though, which is
>    flashy, but not so important at the hot corner.

	Dan's never one to let stats get in the way of an argument.. Here's
	a breakdown of fielding stats for Boggs vs. Gaetti from 1984 to 
	1987.   George Brett is included where he played enough games to
	make it worth comparing.

		Games		PO	ASS	E       Edge? 
1987 Boggs        147          111      277    14
     Gaetti       154          134      261    11       Even

1986 Boggs        149          121      267    19
     Gaetti       157          118      334    21       Gaetti..
     Brett        124           97      218    16 

1985 Boggs        161          134      335    17
     Gaetti       160          146      316    18       Even 
     Brett        155          107      339    15

1984 Boggs        158          141      330    20
     Gaetti       162          142      334    20       Even


>   Most Boston and Boggs fans allow themselves to be easily fooled by
>   false impressions (such as the All Star game, and consistent kind
>   articles).  It's a good thing I'm around to straighten you guys out.    
>   Dan
                     
 Good thing we Boston fans have an objective, factual, accurate source
 to fall back on.   While Boggs never was the best 3B, he certainly did
 earn his repuation as a better than average 3B.   

    Yeah but, Doug, Fenway is a 3rd baseman's dream park.  Didn't you know
    that?  So stats don't mean squat, right Dan?  :-)
    
    And speaking of stats, Wade has selfishly been ripping the hide off the
    ball in this home stand.  And we all know that, clearly, the one and
    only thing in Wade's mind when he steps up at bat is to get yet another
    200-hit season.  Getting some runners across is purely a_accident and
    unintentional......  :-)
    
    Go get 'em, Wade!
    
    Hawk

    Doug,
    
    Of course, stats don't measure things like range - of which Wade
    has none, and Gaetti has lots.   That's the problems with stats.
     Everything can't be measured in pure numbers.  Wade's a great hitter
    (a singles hitter, and fenway doubles...), and an average fielder
    - which is what has been said ad nauseum.
    
    IMO, the measure of Wade is the answer to this question:  Would
    Wade rather get 200 hits and hit over .300, and not win a champeenship,
    or  would he rather get 100 hits and bat .250 or so and be on a
    W.S. winner?.  My guess is the former.   He's the type that if he
    was hitting .400 with 4 games left, he'd mysteriously pull a hamstring
    or strain his mustache, instead of being a man like Ted Williams
    was.  
    
    You've said you'd take 9 Wade's on your team.  That's great - you'd
    win your rotis. league hands down.  IN REAL baseball, you'd win
    nothing but some individual awards....
    
    JD
    Wade would rather do the first

    
    re: -1
    
    9 Boggs on one rotis team does not make a winner... that would 
    give you average and RPs... but nil in HRs and SBs...  now, 
    talk about 9 Rickey Henderson's or 9 Jose Canseco's and that's
    a different story... (even 9 Strawberries...)

>    <<< Note 28.384 by RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JO "Buzzed by the Blue Angels...." >>>
>
>    Doug,
>    
>    Of course, stats don't measure things like range - of which Wade
>    has none, and Gaetti has lots.   That's the problems with stats.
>     Everything can't be measured in pure numbers.


Geez... if over a four year period, two players have roughly an equal number
of assists, that would normally mean they get to the same number of
groundballs.   Thus, it would not be farfetched to say that the players have
comparable range.    Can you explain it some other way????  We're not talking
about 10 games you might have seen.  We're talking about 600 games and over
1500+ total chances and the numbers come out pretty close.  

Just like home runs and slugging percentage are a measure of power,
assists are a measure of range.  It's pretty simple.  It's objective.
It's the truth.   Your biased opinion is just that...  and, worse, it's false.



A team of Wade Boggs {batters} would set records for runs scored.  They
would be a mediocre rotisserie team, though.

    Doug, for chrissakes, Fenway has a much smaller infield than any other
    ballpark in the universe, didn't you know that?  :-)
    
    Hawk

not to stir up too much trouble, but wade's home field is grass and gaeti's 
is astroturf.  There's a pretty good argument that grass slows down groundballs 
significantly enough to increase wade's range, as you measure it by number 
of assists.

    Re: Saturday's game
    
    I woke up in time to see Jody Reed get ejected from the game.
    
    What did he get ejected for?  Yelling at that bozo McKeon (sp)?
    
    What made it all the funnier was when they came back from commerical
    break and they showed Reed in the dugout chewing him out.  Boy, was Reed
    livid!  Now if only I could read lips...
    
    
    

AFter ingesting an inordinate amount of SPORTshrooms at the game
Saturday, I was able to see this black hole anomaly halfway between
3rd and Home.

Ground balls hit there rocket away from Wade, forcing him to cover
more ground.  

Therefore, Wade is a better 3B.

HTH,
Sweatin_Saw

Assists are strictly a measure of the number of balls that a players was able
to get to. Which is strictly a factor of the number of balls hit to a player.

I'm quite sure that it doesn't take into account the number of balls hit in the
general vacinity of a player.

Imagine this doug...

Player A has 5 bob Stanley type throwers in his starting rotation..He gets 
1000 balls hit in his general vacinity. He has the range of the Venus de Milo.
He gets to 500 of these balls and gets 500 assists.

Players B has 5 Nolan Ryan type throwers in his starting rotation. He gets 600
balls hit in his general vacinity. He has the range of Ozzie Smith. He gets to 
500 of these balls and gets 500 assists. They are both responsible for the same
number of outs but one obviously has much more range than the other.

Using your numbers they are both equal players....


Yet another example of using statistics to tell 1/2 the story....


       Metz

Well, for a 3B, we're talking about 2 assists per game on the average.
The turf also provides a cleaner hop and fewer short rollers that a
player beats out for hits.

To me, there's three ways to gauge range... 

	Coming in on a bunt/tapper...
	Grabbing balls down the line...
and	Grabbing balls to the SS side...

I state {subjectively} that Boggs is above average on the first two and
average on the third.   Combine that with a powerful arm and a good ability
to go out to LF foul area for popups, and I still say he's above average.

    re .390:                                           
    
    Reed got ejected for arguing a called third strike.
    
    re .388:
    
    Point well taken on grass slowing a ball down, but one also gets truer
    hops on turf...six of one, half dozen of the other....
    
    
    py

    Thanks Paul, the announcers didn't know if it was something he said
    or some gesture (ha ha) he made to the ref!

And no team fields a team of Nolan Ryan's or Bob Stanley's.  There's
bound to be a true mix of ground outs, fly outs, and strike outs over
a four year period.   Twins had Viola and Allan Anderson, two lefties,
who are ground ball pitchers I think.  Bert Blyleven was a fly ball
pitcher {some REAL LONG fly balls in Minn}.  

Here's the pitching staffs for the Twins/Red Sox during that period:


1984			Twins			Red Sox
                        Viola                   Hurst   
                        Smithson                Ojeda   
                        Butcher                 Boyd    
                        Filson                  Nipper  
                        Filson                  Clemens 
                        Ron Davis               Stanley
						Clear

1985			Twins			Red Sox
                        Viola                   Hurst      
                        Smithson                Ojeda      
                        Butcher                 Boyd       
                        Schrom                  Nipper     
                        Blyleven                Clemens    
                        Ron Davis               Crawford   

1986                    Twins                   Red Sox
                        Viola                   Hurst      
                        Smithson                Seaver     
                        Heaton                  Boyd       
                        Portugal                Nipper     
                        Blyleven                Clemens    
                        Ron Davis               Schiraldi  


1987                    Twins                   Red Sox
			Blyleven		Clemens
			Viola			Hurst
                        Straker                 Nipper
			Smithson		Stanley
			Berenguer		Sellers
			Neikro			Gardner 
			Reardon			Schiraldi


I don't think you can make a case for either team being all of one
type.... 

Sorry Doug,

You can't just switch back and forth between subjective opinions and statistics.
Either present the stats that say both 3rd baseman had an equal number of 
balls hit in their vacinity or admit that you are making a totally subjective
observation that Boggs is equal to Gaetti in your opinion.

You can't have it both ways ya know  :-)

Maybe you can invent a "new" statistic that plots all the balls hit in a game
and calculates out the average range of a 3rd baseman and draws a semi eliptical
pattern around them so that you can calculate out who had what number of balls
hit to them and what percentage they actually got to. Possibly # of balls that
the 3rd baseman got to divided by # of balls hit within an average 3rd basemans
range to that player = range index....Or we could just call it the Ross #. 

You SABRE types would have a field day with it and you could all be busy for the
next 10 years calculating it for every ball player known to man :-)


Metz

I noticed the smileys... but I'm not a SABR type... {and I do know
those eggheads :-)}.  I look at raw numbers - assists... and conclude that over
four years, if two players have roughly the same number, then they
are probably getting to the same number of groundballs, thus to say 
one has far better range than the other lacks credibility.

Others take those numbers and come up with "Yeah, but he plays on
grass"  or "yeah, but if he had 16 Nolan Ryans..."  I've done no
analysis.   I presented the raw stats and then responded to your
comment by showing that the staffs were not all of one type.  So
where am I going too far?

Brooks Robinson is considered one of the best fielding 3B ever...
He played on grass...  he played on a team with {normally} an
excellent pitching staff...  And the numbers show that he got about
10% more assists per game than Boggs and Gaetti... Making one think
that he probably had better range.   Is that so hard to figure out?
In 1974, Brooks got 410 assists... I don't think Gaetti or Boggs
ever came close to that.   Mike Schmidt did.   Again, another great
3B.   

I'm just looking quickly at the book, but it looks like Boggs got
about 20% assists than Butch Hobson normally did, and about 25% more
than Carney Lansford while with the Sox.  10% more than Petrocelli
when he played there.  About the same as Joe Foy with fewer errors.
You have to go back to the middle 50's and Frank Malzone to find
a Red Sox 3B who got more assists.  And I think Malzone was considered
an excellent fielder.

your point about robinson is well taken.  however, if the o's playing 
with robinson played against the sox's with wade, i doubt that even you 
would say they were comparable infielders.

of course, i'm biased being a boggs-basher, but you have to give wade the
credit for making the ordinary into the sublime.  how many times a game do you
have to see him fall spin and dive for a ball 2 feet away from him.

if only he'd hit more homers 8^)))))

    That fall-spin-hop-up is a standard 3rd baseman move. Nettles was the
    best at it. Play 4 ft. from the line. Wait on a ball. Then....DIVE.
    I love it. Brooks Robinson hardly ever left his feet according to 
    some people. He just plain got to the ball and threw the guy out.
    Nettles was an above average 3rd bagger, just like Boggs and Gaetti.
    
    				Rich
    

�your point about robinson is well taken.  however, if the o's playing 
�with robinson played against the sox's with wade, i doubt that even you 
�would say they were comparable infielders.
    
    I didn't read anything where Doug said that they were.  In fact, I read
    that Robinson had better range which was backed up by the higher assist
    numbers.

>if two players have roughly the same number, then they
>are probably getting to the same number of groundballs, thus to say 
>one has far better range than the other lacks credibility.
    
    The statistics you presented are not inconsistent with the statement I
    made, which, to paraphrase is that Gaetti is likely the best fielding
    third baseman in the league for the last few years.
    
    Dan

    Dan, I just learned over in 320 that Doug isn't really serious in what
    he writes, it's all merely a form of sarcasm.  You must learn not to
    take Doug seriously, as I have.  I'm not miserable anymore and life is
    truly wonderful again.
    
    Hawk

    Sox win 6-3.  Brunansky goes deep with a 3 run homer in the sixth
    inning, I believe.  Pena also hit a solo shot earlier in the game.
    Boggs doubled and singled off Langston.  I think I read over the
    weekend he's only batting .170 against lefties on the road.  He's been
    on a tear for about a week now.  Greenwell had 3 hits.  
    
    Bolton went the distance to improve his record to 6-1.  Tonight it's
    Harris vs. McCaskill.
    
    					Steve

Boggs drove in a run with a bases loaded single... making him 5 for 6 this
year in bases loaded situations with 11 RBI's.

    
    Selfish B is just padding his stats, as usual.  ;-)
    
    

It's easy to see that the biggest reason the Sox are still in first place
is Tony Pena.  The difference between him and the droopy-lidded, three-toed
sloth Gedman is enormous.    He sets up so low, that the pitchers seem to
be keeping the ball down.   He's always looking for the pickoff when guys
get on base.  He doesn't worry about the helicopter swing, just hacks away.

    i have never seen a catcher that stay in that position for so long
                               
    ya think he would get real tired.. must work alot on the legs..
    
    
    dinz
    

    I've been fortunate enough to get tickets to a few games this year 
    7 rows behind the Sox on-deck circle.  My son, who's an absolute
    baseball freak and just shy of 6 years old, asked me why Pena was
    laughing and smiling while taking his cuts.  He thought players only
    smiled after they'd hit a homer or won a game.  I told him the game is
    actually fun and enjoyable for Tony Pena, and to appreciate it while 
    Pena's still around.  He's a pleasure to watch.
    
    That, to me anyway, is the way the game was meant to be played.
    
    It's an ongoing joke in the Sox dugout as they watch Pena catch.  He
    causes problems for the umpires by getting so low, as he's a form of
    protection for the ump.
    
    					Steve  

    Do ya think  Soxfans and players alike will be saying in sept..
    
    
    no maas.. no  maas..
    

I like what Pena brings to the game.  He looks like a little
kid and he has *fun* playing.....

I read somewhere why he gets so low.  I think it's a carry over
from one particular pitcher that he'd catch, but I don't remember...

'Saw

Dinz,

Will the fridge in the camper be big enough to hold all the brews 
you're buying? Or should we bring coolers too?

daryll

    
    
    bring the coolers.. gonna be one of those weekends.. Thank god
    
    Jimbo  mcfall designated  driver..
    

    I believe the story is that Pena was forced down into that "crouch"
    of his by Kent Tekulve back in Pittsburgh.

>           <<< OURGNG::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS.NOTE;2 >>>
>                 -< OURGNG::SPORTS - Digital's daily tabloid >-
>================================================================================
>Note 28.411                  The Boston Red Sox Note                  411 of 415
>COBRA::DINSMORE "yanks..spoilers in sept."            5 lines   8-AUG-1990 07:30
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    Do ya think  Soxfans and players alike will be saying in sept..
    
    
>    no maas.. no  maas..
 
    I think you are probably right, Dins.  When the Yankees start playing
    contenders and teams with decent pitching, we'll see no Maas.
    
    Bruce   

    Re .405
 
    I think Boggs is dogging it, only 6 trips with the bases loaded.
    Says something about his range, huh?
    
    And, he's only batting .833 in that situation this year, and hasn't
    driven in 49% of the runners.  What a flop!   
    
    :*)
    
    Lee

    whats this lee, you now a sox fan?? Or just part of the Wade  Boggs
    
    fan club? :)
    
    
    dinz
    

    I have also read somewhere that Sandy Alomar Jr. and Santiago have
    molded themselves after Pena, and all are excellent catchers.
    
    
    
    
    John

Personally, I think that Pena was one of the best Red Sox
acquisitions in years.  Ol' Gorman musta been doin' the shrooms
I sent him when he made that trade, cause it sure ain't like
the other boners he's pulled....

Go Tony Pena!

'Saw

    re .420:
    
    Pena didn't come to the Sox via trade, he was a free agent signing last
    winter.  I agree, getting Tony was one of the best moves the Sox have
    made in a while.
    
    
    py

You know Paul, after I wrote that note I said to myself "Self, I think
you screwed up".

I think I must have mixed up him and Bruno, at least in how they
got to the team....

'Saw

It was almost impossible for Gorman to screw up getting Pena via free agency.
Pena basically told everybody that he wanted to play here and after that it
was simply a matter of getting the contract done (although that, in itself might
have been a way for trader Loo to screw it up )


Metz

    Hi dINZ.  Not a Sox fan, not a member of the Boggs fan club.  Just
    trying to stir the pot a bit.  Actually, I think that Boggs is an
    above average 3b.  Not the greatest, not among the next level,
    but somewhere between that second tier and average.

    Lee
    
    

    Hes turned himself into a better average  3rd baseman..
    
    i was lucky enough to wake up early and see replay of game and see
    
    Parish  deposit one in the stands..
    
    Toronto  wins.. this race gets decided in late september, and i
    know those young Yanks will be spoilers either to sox or jays.
    
    
    dinz
    

Hey Dinz,

Nice article in the Tribune yesterday about how Sox fans are 
getting their revenge for '78, Bucky's canned and now Lou looks 
like he's gonna take the pipe out in Cincy....

I've got plenty of coolers....

daryll

    well i may not be buying any, if the yanks continue  winning, and
    brewers  losing..
    
    

    The bum's on the mound tonight against Abbott.  He'll take his normal
    start after throwing a career high (168?) pitches on Saturday.  Here's
    hoping the Sox score a bunch of runs, 'cause the bullpen can't be relied
    upon at present.
    
    					Steve

    The Score is 10-2 Sox are leading in the 8th inning.. Bases loaded with
    Boggs up to bat!... Will Boggs go for a selfish hit!..
    Strike one...
    Ball one , check swing..
    Ball 2 close but not close enought!!
    
    Boggs swings.... up the middle for a single driving in 2
    its now 12-2... must have been a "park-effect hit"  Right Dan?
    
    Bluejays lost sox about to take 2 out of 3 from the ANgels and go back
    to 2 games ahead of the Bluejays...
    
    REK

    Had to put this somewhere.  While watching last night's game against 
    Seattle, I believe I witnessed the weakest throwing arm of any major 
    league ball player.  Luis (?) Polonia.  Greenwell flyed to short, short
    left field with Ellis Burkes on third.  Having never observed Polonia's
    throwing arm I was kind of shocked Burkes was tagging.  The throw was
    up the first base line, but even if it were on the money Burkes would
    have beaten it easily.
    
    					Steve

    
    That was quite a lame throw by Polonia! Small nit Steve it was 
    California not Seattle! 8^) Sox are hitting well as a team.
    
    
    
    Steve

    Thanks for pointing that out, Steve.  I must have entered a time warp
    and got a day ahead of myself.
    
    					Steve

    re .429
    
    Notes like that crack me up.  Imagine if Jim Rice did that, he'd
    be railed against as only getting hits when it doesn't matter.
    
    I've taken part in the Clemens and Boggs debates - I don't like
    either, but I do acknowledge their talents.  CLemens as a damn good
    pitcher, Boggs as a damn good hitter.   IMO, however, both are the
    types that won't lead a team to victory when it matters.   Boggs
    especially.  
    
    I guess it comes from being a Sox and a Mets fan.  I know that if
    Boggs and Clemens played for the Mets, many of the Sox fans/diety
    builders would be saying they were just products of New York hype.
    
    JD

    	JD's right.  I would much rather have Doc Gooden's team oriented
    E.R.A of almost 4.xx than Roger's selfish E.R.A. of almost under
    2.xx.  Congrats JD!
    
    				/Don

    /Don,
    
    How many World Champeenships have the mighty individualistic Sox
    won in the last 25 years???             
    
    I'd rather see a champeenship flag flying over center field than
    a bunch of individual trophies in someone's living room.
    
    
    HTH
    
    JD

I am not a number, I am a Red Sox player?

The Red Sox will eventually put it together and become
a champion.  Of this I have no doubt.  And, believe it
or not I think it will be in my life time.

And folks, when that day comes, look out, because Freakin'
Lunatic wouldn't come close to describing a buzzin' Chainsaw
that day.....

'Saw

    Nice to see the shaving cream and coke cups Saturday night...

    I was watching channel 56 last night... The rally stuff was great!!!!
    
    REK

    �Maybe Noxema will buy the Red Sox
    
         And get some kind of cooperative crossover deal going with Victor
    Kiam's Patriots...

    I think that it's great that two teams can have so much *fun* playing
    the game. I thought the Arab shieks in the Seattle dugout was pretty
    funny too, then they all changed to Zorro masks, but the shaving cream
    and the coke cans for ears took the cake. Clemens looked like something
    from outer space.
    
    The Red Sox have to be the team leader in practical jokes. A few weeks
    back they actually were doing some kind of voodoo or something, setting
    up a shrine and sacrificing a rubber chicken. Did anyone catch that
    one?
    
    John
    

    There is only one way to figure out fielding by position and by park
    effects.  Take the number of assists and putouts made at each position,
    calculate the average and then figure out how many above and below the
    average each position is.  Then, do it by ballpark to get rid of the
    park effect.  It won't be the absolute answer but it will be close.
    
    One of the things I've been doing recently is rereading a lot of the
    work done by Bill James and so forth.  I'll admit that James has come
    up with a lot of meaningless numbers but one thing he doesn't do
    (unlike some others, who miss the point) is think a ballplayer can be
    evaluated purely on the numbers.  There is a human factor there that
    can't be quantified.  As kind of a protest to what he has done, he has
    gotten out of the statistics part of the writing and is now
    concentrating on other areas.  If you can ignore the numbers part of it
    the man is a pretty darn good writer.
    
    I think his most positive contributions have been first, to approach
    baseball with an open mind.  There are many myths that have been handed
    down through the generations that needed someone to look at them
    objectively.  SABR first, and then James, have done that.  (SABR btw is
    not just about statistics - it researches history and other important
    aspects of the game).  The other thing has been to try to come up with
    ways of measuring baseball players and how their offensive and
    defensive stats contribute to a team's winning because unlike ERA and
    winning pct for a pitcher, there's nothing in baseball that measures
    these things directly.  I know there's a lot of you who'll disagree
    with me on this, but I think such a measure is helpful.  I will admit
    that it's not a be-all, end-all.  We argue all the time about how much
    Wade Boggs actually contributes to how the Red Sox do, and then when
    someone tries to quantify it, the person who comes up with the system
    for attempting to do so gets bashed.  There's an inconsistency here
    someplace.
    
    People who rely on pure numbers miss the point.  James admits this. 
    Don't blame him.
    
    John
              

    Got his first ever? win in Oakland.  11k and 1 walk.  Lowered his
    era to 2.06
    
    Canseco and Ricky didn't play.  McGwire got the night off (he sips 
    against Clemens)
                                                         

Clemens was in complete control of the game until the ninth inning.  He
then gave up a walk and a hit by Felix Jose.   Not having a Dennis Eckersley
to turn to, Clemens had to gut it out.  He got Dave Henderson to fly out
to deep center and then after getting behind 3-0 to Terry Steinbach, worked
the count back to 3-2 before dropping down almost sidearm on his last pitch
to get Steinbach to pop out to 2B.

Chris Berman of ESPN had an "exclusive" interview with Roger and some
interesting things came out:

On his refusal to talk to the press:   He said he felt like he had been
burned by the Boston media, saying that he had allowed many of them into
his home in the early days and they turned around and blasted him later
on when he complained about the less-than-major-league conditions around
Fenway.

On this year:  He was quoted as saying that he and the rest of the team are
trying to win this year for Evans, knowing that he won't get many more 
chances to do so.   

Anyone think the Sox would be near first place if they had Rice, Stanley,
Smithson, and Price around this year?   I think not.   The best thing Joe
Morgan did was rid the team of those guys.

    
    SIGN ROGER NOW!!!!  Don't wait till next year!!!
    
    Course, he just might up and leave anyway, even if the Sox offer
    him something equilavent to the S & L bailout, and throw in Quincy
    Market and Martha's Vineyard to boot.
     
    Dickster
    

	Rice probably wouldn't have helped any but with the bulpen the way it
is now would Stanley or Smithson have hurt any?  They certainly couldn't have  
done much worse then who is/has been in the middle relief.  

	Take a look -

Lamp      77 ip 4.09 era
Gray      28    5.08
Murphy    48    6.33
Hesketh    4    6.75
irvine     3    9.00
Reed       ?    ?     so bad he was released

	I think they would have been better off with Stanley and Smithson
over Gray/Reed/hesketh/Irvine.

mc

I'm sure I'm exagerating, but I cannot remember a time when the
Red Sox ever had a good bullpen.

I guess you'd have to go back to 1968 time frame...I remember
Sparky Lyle and Lee Stang, but I don't know if they were considered
great relievers (I had only watched baseball for two seasons at that
point)...

Maybe Santa Claus will bring us Sox fans a good bullpen for the next
season......

'Saw

Stanley had his days Saw....

but Dick Radtz was the man....

    If the season ended today, Clemens would be an *easy* shoe-in for his
    3rd Cy Young award.
    
    
    
    Go Roger!
    
    John

    RE: the pen
    
         I hardly think Darryl Irvine can be judged on 3 IPs.  In fact, I
    believe that one of those innings came very early in the year before he
    was sent back to Pawtucket - where he should've started the year anyway.
    
         Gray's been up and down.  Put a fork in Hesketh.  Lamp? (sigh)
    
         Mike Smithson might've been a decent addition to the pen.  He did 
    okay last year, winning some key games and can start or work out of the 
    pen.  However, he probably would've been used as a spot starter and we 
    never would've found about the new improved Tom Bolton.
         

    easy shoo in?? naw, dont think so.. 
    

    Dins, why don't you bet someone on it?  8^)

There's too many starts left to give the award to Clemens yet... It's
a five man race, and each probably has 9 or 10 more starts before the
season ends.

The five candidates are:

	Welch, Clemens, Stewart, Stieb, and Chuck Finley where the
	last three are on the outer edge.

Finley is about 100-1, unless he finishes up with about 7 more wins,
	and leads the league in e.r.a. while the other four finish badly.

Stieb is about 25-1, unless Toronto wins the East and he finishes with 20 wins,
	then he'd be about 10-1

Stewart is about 5-1, if he wins more than 20 and Welch and Clemens fade.

Clemens and Welch are even money right now.   If Clemens wins 22 or more
and holds onto the e.r.a title, and the Sox win the East, then I'd call
him the favorite... unless Welch wins 25+ and gets his e.r.a under 3.

If Clemens does win, we all know it'll be because of the Boston media
juggernaut that shapes the collective sporting minds of the nation.

Actually, if it's a close race between Welch and Clemens, I wonder if
any of the local writers will have the guts to pick Welch over Clemens.

    Clemens would probably win it, but shoo=in, to me, means no comp,
    by a landslide.   I think that if the season ended RIGHT now, as
    Mr. bonin said, that Mr. Welch would garner a hell of a lot of votes.
    No landslide victories in the Cy Young awards this year.
    
    JD

Hekseth....another Gorman Folly....

>Hekseth....another Gorman Folly....
    
    I read over the weekend that Roger McDowell was one of those that
    cleared waivers, and in response to that, Gorman said "We are not
    interested in McDowell."!  If I was a Red Sox fan, I'd take Lou out
    back and shoot him.
    
    Dan

    
    What about Eck?  Sub 1.00 ERA and blowing out the record for most saves
    in a season ought to be worth some consideration.
    
    Bruce

    Bruce,
    
    The Eck deserve mention, but I think a starter will get it this
    year.
    
    Dan - why would the Phillies put McDowell on waivers, and no one
    claim him?  I know they did it to test the waters, but I caint believe
    teams like the BoSox didn't at least go through the motions and
    claim him.   Geez, the guy is better than anything they have right
    now, that for sure.  But then again, Pat Clements is better than
    anything the have right now.
    
    JD

	I wasn't trying to say Irvine is a stiff (though he might be) it's
just with what the sox have had in the pen all year, I don't see how Smithson
or Stanley could do much worse.

mc

    	John Wyatt had a good year in '67.  8^)  Stewart has 16 wins,
    possibly 17 after today and his E.R.A in the last three starts is
    0.00.  I consider him along with Clemens and Welch to be a strong
    contender.
    
    				/Don

    If Boston had a bullpen, Clemens would be 20-3 at this point.  Reardon
    blew at least 3 games that he inherited from Clemens with the lead.
    
    Mark.

    If Clemens didn't have to play Oakland (which Welch doesn't) he'd hav e
    two less losses.

yeah and if umps called real strike zones he'd have 5 more losses so take
the supposed victories he lost and balance them against this and you see
he's right about where he belongs in victories but well below what his
era should be....

;^)

mike

The reason I left Eckersley off the contenders list is because normally
the only way a reliever gets consideration for Cy Young is if there is
no real dominant starting pitcher.   

It should be interesting if Stewart, Welch, and Clemens end up with
nearly identical records.   Clemens may pull it out simply because the
West Coasy writers will probably split between Stewart and Welch for
first, with Clemens getting seconds.

    re .470
    
    And if Stewart go to go against Clemens more than twice, he'd have at
    least 3 more wins ....

    'Saw,
    
    From some of the things you write I'd guess you and I are about the
    same age - hence I am left wondering why you can't remember when the
    Sox had a good pen.
    
    As someone pointed out, there was Dick Radatz and that sage, /Don,
    recalled the work of Johnny Wyatt (although Wyatt is better known for
    getting hit in the head when Bob Tillman tried to throw out a runner at
    2nd).
    
    But let us not forget the original Red Sox reliever, Ellis Kinder. Then
    there was Mike Fornieles. How about Jim Willoughby and Dick Drago. We
    also had a monster of a guy named Bob Veale and then there was the guy
    that Zimmer burned up, Bill Campbell. Tom Burgmier was a decent middle
    man - probably one of the better the Sox had.
    
    People laugh but, in his prime, Bob Stanley was one of the best middle
    men-turned-closer the Sox ever had. I also recall a lefty by the name
    of Arnold Early who had a decnt year or two.
    
    The Sox have had their share of good relievers. This years middle
    relievers and the lack of a closer make it a glaring weakness.
    
    But, given the past propensity of Sox management to sell the farm for
    aging veterans (Juan Marichal, Dick Ellsworth, etc) I give credit to
    Gorman for trying to develop (FINALLY!) some homegrown talent while
    seeing if there are any bargains to be had for nothing. Remember, Lamp,
    Sambito, etc came here and contributed and we paid next to nothing for
    them.
    
    However, the Reggie Harris story is one that riles me and is
    indicative, perhaps, of why the Mets, Dodgers and Orioles can
    continually develop good young pitchers and the Sox get so few. There
    is no development in the farm system of the Red Sox. We let a great
    talent like Harris rot down there and Oakland, with Dave Duncan, Tony
    LaRussa, Dave Stewert and others out there have worked with the guy to
    the point where he can pitch in the majors. The Sox? They do the same
    thing with John Trautwine and let him sit on the bench.
    
    Rich
    
    
    

Rich --

I'm 31 (be 32 next month), I started watching the Sox in 1966, but
didn't develop the savvy to be a real fan until probably 68 or so.

Some of the names you mention ring a bell...Drago especially.

I just couldn't come up with a bunch of consistent names over a
period of time.  I'd forgetten about Campbell too...

Oh well.....

'Saw

    Saw,
    
    Ain't no way you are 31.  I'm 31 and you are at least 25 years older
    than me.  That's a fack.
    
    JD

Think Lou's on the phone to McDowell today?

how about those announcers are they prophets of doom or what?

 "Well McGuire's the kind of guy you can make look bad all day then
  all of sudden bang with 1 swing he kills ya"....

  inning number 8 they came out with that gem....

mike

    mcguire stinks lifetime against clemens, but not murphy..
    
    
    A lack of bull pen  will cost the sox in october
    
    
    dinz
    

    	While Irvine's pitches were swervin',
    	Rivera made an error.
    
    	Then bonehaid Joe the game did blow,
    	When he brought in Murph the derf.
    
    	Because Rob threw up a lob,
    	That Mark hit out of the park.
    
    	But the Sox are still in first,
    	In the division that is the worst.
    
    				/Don

    toronto  will win the division... they lost to chicago
    
    
    KOD  FINALLY GETS PUT TO REST!
    

    BS, put to death!  Look what you've done to the Tigers!!!
    
    We/re having a tough year, but you're making it worse!!  
    
    Change that damn P-name, will ya?
    
    Lee
    

>    
>    	Then bonehaid Joe the game did blow,
    	When he brought in Murph the derf.

	

	I don't know if you were serious don but others have also blamed
morgan for the loss and i don't think its right.  He made the right move.
He couldn't leave Irvine in. The kid couldn't find the plate, balked, and
threw a wild pitch.  he's also a rookie.  No way would I have left him in.
He realy needed a K.  Although he went against the percentages I think bringing
Murphy in was almost his only choice.  Murphy is a K, pitcher and a has
experience.  The only other option (that makes sense to me) was to bring in 
Gardner.  Seeing Wes hasn't pitched in awhile I can see why he didn't do that.
With the bulpen the way it is his hands were tied and he made the best move he 
could. 

Mc

    	I saw the replay of the game on NESN last night Mike, and I
    agree Irvine had to come out.  Hell, he almost threw the intentional
    ball four past the catcher, but Murphy?  I dunno about that one.
    
    				/Don

    Right and wrong, Mike.  Wrong, I ain't in St. Louis, but right,
    I can throw as well as Murphy.  Hell, Murphy's so bad, even my Tigers
    would't use him.
    
    Lee

Morgan had no choice.  He simply had to choose which poison
he was going to die by.

Murphy is a stiff.  Plain and simple.  The guy makes me wanna puke
every time they bring him in....

The Caterer...serving up those homerun meatballs....

    How can the guy go downhill so quickly?  Is he burnt out from pitching
    so often over the years?  One stinkin' pitch and Apollo lifts off. 
    What a shot by McGuire.
    
    					Steve

Is Clemons still slated to go on Sunday??

RE: Murphy

I too have been wondering why he has been so hot and [mostly] cold this season. 
I try to watch the quality of his pitches, and although I by no means any kind 
of expert, he doesn't look all that bad.  Yet he still has an ERA in the 6 
range (probobly a few 10ths higher after McGwires moon shot) and is still 
sliding.  Did he show promise last year or was I in another universe (entirely 
possible ;^))???????

Scott

    re .488, .489 on Murphy:
    
    It's certainly plausible that after being among the league leaders in
    appearances the last few years, Murphy may be just plain burnt out.  
    Will a winter's rest help?  Who knows? 

    >	Is Clemons still slated to go on Sunday??
    
    I hope so, that way my O's will miss him... :-)
    
    
    py

Regardless of whether he was ever hot, The Caterer(tm) is serving
up cold meatballs these days.  With Reardon out, perhaps Gorman
should get a life, get a brain, (get a new job - oh please oh please)
and find someone capable of closing.

They can send the Caterer into the RF bleachers, since we could use
a few more hot dog vendors in that neck of the woods....

'Saw

    
    Those who should know say that Murphy is spending too much time
    with his "other" business interests (Horse breeding) and is not
    concentrating on the game. Seems sort of logical to me. 

>    Those who should know say that Murphy is spending too much time
>    with his "other" business interests (Horse breeding) and is not
>    concentrating on the game. Seems sort of logical to me. 

I stand corrected.

Let me rephrase my observations:

	Rob "The Caterer" Murphy should be put in the RF bleachers
	because he keeps serving up cold horsemeat balls to 
	opposing hitters.....

Thanks for the help,
Chainsaw

    What do we all think Gorman should do? If there were any REAL bona fide
    closers on the market at this point, they would have been scoffed up.
    
    If Dave Smith is the best out there right now, I'd rather not risk it.
    And that's the real word..RISK. The trading deadline is over so Gorman
    cannot engineer a trade. He has to see what clears waivers. And a real
    closer would NOT clear waivers.
    
    So, rather than risk some future phenom on a used up closer, he's
    risking the race on kids like Gray and Irvine from Pawtucket. I
    actually think he's doing the right thing, at this point.
    
    My problem with Gorman is that he waited too long after it was
    reasonably certain that Raerdon had serious back problems. He should
    have been dealing back in June or around the All Star game. So, given
    the fact that he bothced that opportunity, I agree with his agenda now.
    
    No comments on Marshall and Plantier? I was sort of sad to see
    Lancelotti sent back down but he just didn't produce given a chance.
    The guy is a career minor leaguer and had probably this one last chance
    to play out a meaningful year in "The Show".
    
    I would really like to see Plantier used as a pinch hitter alot down
    the stretch. I watched him alot at Pawtucket and, although he probably
    won't meet the expectations of the Kevin Maas Adoration Society (tm),
    the kid has raw power from the left side. In September, enjoy Mo
    Vaughn. That guy is something to see. Carlos may well be the bait
    we will use for pitching over the winter.
    
    Rich
    

    As you stated, Rich, there's not much they can do about the relief 
    pitching at this point.  Gorman doesn't have a hair trigger when pulling 
    the finger on trades, but I'm sure they probably expected Murphy to come 
    around by the time the trading deadline passed.  I know I did.
    
    I'm anxious to see Plantier.  From what little I've seen of him, it
    looks like he's got a quick bat.  How is he in the field?  I've heard
    someone say he'll make Greenwell look like a Gold Glover.
    
    Marshall was probably gotten as an insurance policy, which I have no
    problem with.  Dewey's back is uncertain and Brunansky is in a severe
    power slump (and may be hightailing it via free agency).
    
    					Steve

    Steve, I've seen Plantier in Pawtucket and he isn't the second coming
    of Paul Blair in the OF. However, I've never been very fond of
    Greenwell as a fielder and I think they are about equal.
    
    Methinks Dennis Lamp will be gone after this season. For a guy who was
    aquired for next to nothing, he has been a good solid member of the Sox
    bullpen for a few years but, alas, has lost it.
    
    Don't be fooled by Hesketh last night. The Orioles must have been tired
    from running the bases so much.
    
    If Kiecker doesn't turn it around in his next 2 starts, the Sox should
    go to a 4 man rotation for September.
    
    Evans may be gone for the season. With Brunansky, Burks, Greenwell,
    Plantier, Marshall and Romine around for OF duty and with Mo Vaughn on
    the way up from Pawtucket, he may feel it's time to get that back taken
    care of. Look for Kutcher to be brought up before Sept 1. I sure hope
    so, anyway.
    
    Rich
    

    re .494
    
    Rich "Sir" Lancellotti had what 4 at bats ???
    
    Not much of a 'chance' if you ask me Rich ....

    	Hey Rich, maybe if Gorman had told Bonehaid Morgan to kiss and
    make up with Lee Smith the Sox would be looking real good right
    now.  Seems like Boston's the only place where Lee was a
    *troublemaker*.  Makes you wonder.  
    
    				/Don

Cmon Don, why lay it at Morgan's feet? How many times was good ole like
adding gas to the fire? After signing Reardon to such an amount when they
already had Lee they had to obstucate something now didn't they...

mike

    	If Morgan got along with Smith they never would've had to sign
    Reardon.  
    
    				/Don

    No question, in hindsight, the Sox made an error with Lee Smith. There
    aren't many guys who can get you 30 saves a year and Smith was one of
    them. So, is Reardon.
    
    Problem was, both Smith and Reardon let it be known that niether of
    them would be satisfied as a set-up guy. So we have to go back and
    figure out why the Sox signed Reardon in the first place.
    
    In my opinion, ever since Smith got stuck on the shitter in Toronto,
    his days were numbered with the Sox. When Reardon was signed, the Sox
    had no intention of keeping Smith. This has nothing to do with Morgan
    although he is, for all intents, a bonehead.
    
    The Sox felt that Smith was worth a lot more than hea actually was. He
    had faded a bit in the last year or 2 and there were bona fide
    questions about his knees, back and heart. Admittedly, he usally got
    the job done but damned if he didn't take you on a roller coaster ride.
    His typical line score was:
    
    		IP	R	ER	H	BB	SO
    Smith (S25)  1      0        0	2	 1	 2
    
    So, if Reardon had been healthy this year and did as expected, we
    wouldn't hear about Smith. But because the unexpected happened and
    Reardon came down with a bad back, the Sox are held up for ridicule.
    Sorry, but I think I would have done the same deal over again.
    
    Rich
    

    No way, Rich.  Smith is younger than Reardan and Reardon has more of
    a history of injury than Smith.
    
    Hindsight, nothing.  I said they made a mistake the day the signed
    Reardon.

    I respect your view, Mac, but you haven't been away that long to forget
    the many instances when Smith begged out of the bullpen claiming his
    knees and/or back hurt. I'm not saying Smith was faking but the fact is
    that Smith is not a clean bill of health either.
    
    Add to that the fact that Smith was cahstised for arriving to camp
    every year out of shape and it wasn't really the dumbest move some make
    it out to be.
    
    Rich
    

    I don't know Rich.  Although some of his outings have been adventurous,
    you don't pile up his kind of stats by begging out of games and
    pitching lousy.
    
    I think people have been skeptical of Smith despite the fact that he
    came through for the Sox because noone wants to believe that the Sox
    actually could get a pitcher of his caliber for Schiraldi and Nipper. 
    People were saying that there must be something wrong with him for the
    Cubs to take the Sox excess baggage.  He then pitched poorly in the
    Fenway opener, and I think that is what a great deal of Sox fans
    remember.

    Dins, how's the view from the cellar?
    
    Mark.

    the view  could change  very soon marcus..
    
    
    dinz
    

    Why dinz?  You jumpin' on the Sox band wagon?

    NOPE, yanks wont be in celler  much longer
    

    	But they'll be there Friday.  Put the beer on ice tonight would
    you Dinz?
    
    				/Don

    Sox take 3 of 4 from Jays...  Shut them out 2-0, 1-0 and 1-0...
    Harris is 11-5.  Bolton is 7-2.  Do the fans dare get comfortable?
    I keep waiting for that wrench...

    Although this may sound strange after what just happened, the Sox'
    pitching, lack of speed and power and shortstop make them iffy even to
    win the East. The things they have going for them are a good attitude,
    Roger Clemens and the Toronto Blue Jays. I seriously doubt the Tigers,
    Orioles or Indians has the horses to make up 10 games in a month. But
    the Jays could catch the Sox if just one cylinder misfires at Fenway.
    
    Harris and Gray are pleasant surprises. Kiecker is an anomoly. Of all
    the Red Sox teams I've followed, this really is the weakest since 1966.
    
    Rich
     

          <<< Note 28.515 by AXIS::ROBICHAUD "Dinz welches again!" >>>
              -< The World Series jinx will be broken this year! >-

    

    
      >             -< The World Series jinx will be broken this year! >-

    Why?  Do you *really* think the Cubs have much of a chance at this
    point? ;^)
    
    Dickster
    

    
    Get real you guys! The DRed Skunks(tm) will never get past the A's. In 
    fact they still have chance to blow it(As per the norm) before the ALCS
    even starts.
    
    Cadzilla

    
    -1
    
    No they won't.  The bombing of Iraq and the Sox winning the series
    are listed in the Book of Revelation as signaling the end of the
    world.  At least the Sox fans will go out smiling.
    
    Dickster
    

And behold, the Seventh Seal was opened, and out rode the 
Four Horsemen of the Boston Red Sox.


I have more faith in the Sox getting by Oakland this season than
in the past.  We'll have to see, but if they do get by Oakland,
I think they could win the series...I really do....

'Saw

    	Dickster, I thought the final two signs were the Red Sox winning
    a World Series and Dinsmore actually paying off a bet.
    
    				/Don

    At least the Sox are actually beating Oakland this year!  Aren't they
    undefeated against the A's at home?
    
    Mike

    Fat chance that ANY team will beat Oakland this year, after their
    acquiring Baines and McGee...  A lineup of 
    
    Henderson
    McGee
    Canseco
    Baines
    McGwire
    Lansford
    
    or thereabouts, is just too strong, with their pitching...
    
    What really pisses me off is
    
    (1)  how the !@#$ did Felix Jose ever clear waivers?  (If you are Sox
         GM, and that name shows up, how many seconds pass before you
         claim him?  I mean, you KNOW that he's not going to be waived,
         but is about to be traded...   Unbelievably stupid move by the
         incompetent Sox administration
    
    (2)  Why can't we ever pull deals like this, Loo?
    
    I was optomistic until hearing about those acquisitions this morning,
    now, I wouldn't bet against another sweep.
    
    ML

    Scene:  It's a beautiful summer day, in the park.  There's a bench with
    a bat leaning against it.  A guy wearing a Red Sox uniform, is sitting
    on the bench.  His arm is around his favourite girl. 
    
    Guy : "Trust me baby.  I'll never break your heart again!"
    Girl: "Honey, I believe you.... again." 
    
    

    Late season trades in baseball don't seem to affect team chemistry 
    as in other sports, but here's hoping it affects Oakland.
    
    What I mean is that other sports (i.e., basketball) seem to benefit 
    more from team play than in baseball.  A single individual can do more 
    damage in baseball (IMHO).
    
    Mike

ML is right.  Expect another ALCS sweep.  Three of the four games
will be close with good pitching by both sides.  Difference being
that the Sox won't score diddly against Eck, while the A's will 
have a field day against the Sox bullpen in the late innings.  As
for Clemens, it will be pretty much a repeat of '88.  He'll pitch
well into the late innings but will get no support.  Probably
lose on a mistake to Canseco or Henderson.  Stewart will make 
Boggs and company look foolish.

Laker_Ken

    	Hey Karen, I still got that cartoon in my office, right on top
    of the Morgan's Miracle handkerchief.  8^)
    
    				/Don

    I've got it right next to all my pictures of God.  Mikey, I could 
    copy some of those for ya.  Nice article in today's Globe about him,
    too.  Let me know. 
    
    (-:

re the cartoon:

	Actually, the way the Sox screwed us in 1986, you could have
	the guy saying "Really, honey, this time it is just a
	cold sore....Trust me!"

re Gorman:

	I'm sorry.  Maybe I'm a tad bit uninformed, and maybe I don't
	have all the dastisticks etc, but I think Lou Gorman is clueless.
        I also think the Sox have no chance to ever win with that
	guy in there....

'Saw
	

    I have it on good authority that the end of the world occurs during the
    9th inning of the 7th game of the World Series between the Red Sox and
    the Cubs.
    
    So it won't be for a while yet.
    
    A&W

Yeah, and the box score the next day in Heaven reads


	Chic  vs  Bos   ppd Armageddon


'Saw

    Amazing, you guys sure know your Revelation (or parts of it).  Ever
    consider taking it seriously??  :-)  And not in relation to the Red
    Sox...  :-)
    
    RE: McGee / waivers
    
    He's a free agent.  Oakland is probably just "renting" him as insurance
    against this year's pennant.  He can fly in the off-season.  They can
    afford a Felix Jose and a minor leaguer or two, most teams can't. 
    That's why they got him (for now).
    
    -- dg

    
    >  Ever
    >consider taking it seriously??  :-)  
     
    Nope.
    

    Sox keep rollin' along.  Roger wins 20th.  Yanks in town tonight...
    Who wants to predict a NY sweep, in place of Dinz?  

    Doug Jones is God...........he looked awesome the past couple of
    appearances.
    
    
    Tom

Yanks sweep soxs. jays 3 back...yeah Mac no S  ;^)

mike

The Red Sox now are tied with Oakland for the largest lead over
the second place team.

    
    Yea but the DRed Skunks (tm) are still 7 games behind the A's on the
    win list. 
    
    		A's all the way to WS.
    
    Cadzilla

    
    Can you spell SSSSwwwweeeeeeeepppp? Roger Clemens for the Cy Young,
    give me a break. Eck's numbers look much better, Hell Welch has more
    wins, and  Stewart's thumped him three times this year. Get a clue,
    No W.S. in Beanburg this year.
    
     
    Cadzilla

    Interesting that Stewart has won 3 head-to-head games against Clemens.
    
    But, what does that really mean?  Stewart doesn't have to face his
    own hitters, nor does Roger face the Sox.
    
    So, does anyone have their records against common opponents?
    
    It may be meaningless, but I'd like to see them.
    
    Lee

 I think one of the best comments made by Remy last nights was

 "and one of the Oakland batters are hellping Roger out by swing at bad
  pitches"....

 mike

>    So, does anyone have their records against common opponents?
    
    Let's see -- if neither Stewart nor Clemens has faced the Sox/A's
    except against each other, then:
    
    	Stewart		15-10
    	Clemens		20- 3
    
    against the rest of the league -- their common opponents......
    
    -- dg

    Let it rest ... Stewart is near-deity .... SO THERE !

    
    The Sox in the AL East are a big fish in a small pond and are the
    cock-of-the-walk in their division. (How's that for mixed metaphors?)
    
    They're just doing the ol' 'possum trick by lulling the A's into
    complacency so they can ambush 'em in the playoffs.  Good strategy,
    I'd say.  Joe Morgan: Supergenius.  Manager of the year! 8^)
    
    Let's go Sox...let's get swept, build up the A's overconfidence
    some more, then we'll show 'em what we're made of in the ALCS!
    
    Dickster the Delerious

    Good stats, Don, but that doesn't really say what each did against
    common opponents.  What would be more meaningful to me would be
    each guys's record against each of the remaining teams in a given
    period of time.  Like, Clemens is x-x against Seattle, while Stewart
    is x-x.
    
    Lee

    
    Armageddon is here now. Clemens has a shoulder problem that could
    be a muscle tear. He could be lost for the season. Then again it
    could all be part of Morgan's "let's see how confident we can make
    the A's" ploy....
    

    What were the scores for the last 2 nights?
    
    Thanks,
    Mike

    
    >    What were the scores for the last 2 nights?

    Don't know.  They haven't finished adding them up yet.
    
    Dickster
    

    
    Last night was another un-important lose, 10 - zip to the A's.
    
    Cadzilla 

Down to 3 GONGS !!!


Joe (returning the favor)

    Sox win, Jays lose, lead back up to 4.
    
    Lee

 got to share this BCN joke with those who don't get it or don't both to
 listen now that they're all hits radio all the time...

 one of their usual feature is Sports for Girls (big intro music, dateline
 type typing etc) and then the girl comes on and speaks

 "I don't get it how can the Red Soxs have a 2 1/2 game lead over the Bluejays?
  I don't think it's fair how can they charge full admission for a 1/2 game?"

 obviously our women readers are excempt from this joke as they fully 
 understand the standings and how they work....

mike

    re the last few:
    
    When the Red Sox are in first place, Eddie Anvilhead says that they're
    x number of kisses (not gongs) in first.  The gongs come into play only
    when they're out of first.
    
    
    py

>        -< 3 GONGS up looks ahellofalot better than 21 GONGS back. (-: >-

but it won't mean nuthin' if they don't win it all....
For me, "it ain't worth the trip if ya come back empty-handed".


Joe

Then you've been savin' plenty on mileage lately, huh Joe?

daryll

    re .565
    
    Joe,
    
    Even if you have the worst record in the league and almost all of
    baseball?

    
    
    Question for you dedicated Red Sox Fans.
    
    Who was the batter that won the game for the Sox in the Playoff
    series against the Angels in 1986?
    
    Drewski
    

       Dave Henderson?
                                    Denny

    Don Baylor hit one out to put the Sox in a position to win and as Denny
    noted, Dave Henderson hit one out with two strikes and two outs in the
    ninth.  The guy had an incredible playoff/series year in '86.
    
    					Steve

I had a flat tire on I-95 in NH when Hendu hit that dinger, listing to the game 
on the radio as I struggled with the spare.  I started dancing around on the 
side of the road, passing cars honking as they sped by.  I'll never forget it.

Scott

    Scott,
    
    You best change that p-name; it's tomorrow!
    
    :^)
    

>    Even if you have the worst record in the league and almost all of
>    baseball?

Not following ya Bruce.  What's this got to do with the Sox' possibilities
of winning it all ?

>but it won't mean nuthin' if they don't win it all....
>For me, "it ain't worth the trip if ya come back empty-handed".

Yeah, and tell me that if the Yanks finished 2nd and the Sox finished 50 games
out you wouldn't be somewhat satisfied with the season.  Uh-huh.  I believe
ya. 

Boy, mention the Yankees and all the NY fans start to ask what 
note we're in, what does this have to do with the Sox, etc 
etc....

daryll

    	Still holding at -4 gongs.

    What's with the Red Sox conference today?  I'm unable to access it.
    
    
    py