Conference 7.286::sports_90

    
    Bob, quick question, why didn't you listed UNC last? They finished
    there in football and I believe thay plan to finish the basketball
    season in the same place.....
    
    ;^)
    
    mike

    Good point, Mike.
    
    I'll try to do better next time.
    
    In fact, let's do it right now.  In order of their finish in the
    ACC college football season just past ...
    
    Virginia
    Duke
    Clemson
    North Carolina State
    Georgia Tech
    Wake Forest
    Maryland
    North Carolina
    
    Bob Hunt

    
    	Duke Before Va. According to the Alphabet!!!!!
    
    	
    
    B.A.
    

    Va. before Duke cause they beat em.
    

    ACC Final Standings for 89-90 Hoop Season:
    
          1. Ga. Tech
          2. NC State
          3. Duke
          4. Clemson
          5. UNC
          6. Virginia
          7. Wake Forest
          8. Maryland
    
    
    Chris

    
    My vote...
    
    Duke
    N.C.S.U.
    Virginia
    U.N.C.
    Ga. Tech
    Clemson
    Wake Forest
    Maryland
    
    B.A.

    
    Gotta look for a darkhorse this year and I'll agree Virgina on top.
    UNC is in the dumper this year talenmt wise so Smith is like a
    junkie without his juice, moan' and beggin for help. Duke seems
    tough but unless Hurley and Mcfertty come quick the backcourt will hurt
    em.
    
    mine
    
    Virgina
    Duke
    Geo Tech
    UNCS
    Clemson
    Wake Forest
    Marland
    UNC
    
    mike

    Hahhahahahahahah, Mike.  Hahahahah!!!  Virginia, ... FIRST?!?!?!?!!!
    You're oughta your BigBeast mind.  No way, no chance, zilch, nada,
    none.
    
    BTW - Duke's backcourt will NOT hurt them this year.  By tournament
    time they'll be one of the best in the country.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    
    

    Bob,
    Let us know when you get settled in, in Charlotte! You should love it
    there. Lots of fun...
    
    
    B.A.

    This is easy, picking the ACC standings
    
    	1) Anybody but North Carolina
    	2-7) Ditto
    	8) Tar Heels
    
    Gee, that was fun!!!
    
    NAZZ

    Chris,when was the last time there was no ACC team in the top 10?

    re: Nazz
    
    There's a difference between what you WANT to happen and what you THINK
    will happen.  Keep that in mind when you're making a "prediction",
    which is, by definition, a THINKING process, not a WISHING one.  Humph.
    
    
    re: Top 10
    
    It should be no surprise to the knowledgeable hoops junky that we've
    got no one in the T10.  Overall I felt this would be a down year for
    the ACC overall - hence my glee at splitting in the Challenge Series
    and eliminating the sickening gloating we would've surely heard from
    the Made-for-TV Conference bigots.  We've got alot of good teams this
    year, but no great ones.  Every team has at least 1 major weakness. 
    This is no surprise.  The Challenge Series highlighted this.  The Big
    Beast is definitely stronger at the top, yet we held our own due to
    better balance from the middle teams.
    
    All of this should make for one of the most wild ACC races in recent
    memory.  8 or 9 wins might get you a share of the ACC Title, with any
    of 7 teams with a shot at winning the ACC tourney.  (Maryland is the
    only team I give no chance to.)
    
    Along these lines I'll go out on a limb and submit my Official ACC Chris 
    Crystal Ball prediction for this years ACC race.
    
    Enjoy.
    
    
    1. (tie) Georgia Tech.  Dennis Scott belongs in the NBA right now.  Best 3
    	  	            man game in the USA (Scott, Anderson, Oliver)  Lack
    	 	            of front court experience and depth are significant
    		            problems.
    
    1. (tie) Duke     Solid starting 5, but lack bulk up front.  Also not
    		      very deep.  
    
    3. UNC	      Next to Syracuse, perhaps the best front court in
    		      America.  Not a good ballhandling or shooting team.
    
    4. NC State	      Best guard tandem in USA.  Can beat anybody on a 
    		      given night, but weak frontcourt will hold them 
    		      back.  Also lack a backup for Corchiani.
    
    5. Clemson	      Strong baseline, when they decide they want to play.
    		      Clemson will be Clemson this year - almost unbeatable
    		      at home, cupcakes on the road, and 1 win and out in
    		      the tourney.
    
    6. Wake Forest    Very talented group which hasn't jelled yet.  Could
    		      easily move into the upper echelons, but so far it's
    		      all been on paper.  They've got to prove it with some
    		      wins, like the one they should've had against an
    		      inferior (but better coached) Seton Hall 5.
    
    7. Virginia	      Great tandem with Stith and Crotty, but other than
    		      that this team has major problems.  Will not contend
    		      for the Title, but watch out for late season run.
    		      Jeffries will be a key for them - if he lives up 
    		      to his potential Virginia could muster 5 or 6 ACC
    		      wins.
    
    8. Maryland	      Truly a disapointing group with major weaknesses.
    		      Might win 1 or 2 in the ACC if they're lucky.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
    Chris, you must be joking, UNC next best frontcourt in the nation?
    excuse me while I laugh loudly HAHA. Mourning alone has more talent
    than the whole UNC line. What about Mills, Vaugh and Higgins? UNLV's
    frontline? IN your own conference for petesakes there's clemson and
    Virgina who maybe slightly weak but Stith is worth any two tarheels...
    
    mike 

    Hey ho there Mikey.  Mentioning Virginia's frontcourt in the same
    breath as Carolina's is true hoops blasphemy, not to mention just plain
    dumb.  Carolina's loss to Georgetown was in no way a result of our
    frontcourt.  They held their own quite nicely, and in the 2nd half
    actually out played them.  The Horror (tm) guards killed us, 
    which is both a compliment to them (Edwards was especially effective) 
    and a statement about our horrendous backcourt.
    
    In any case it hardly matters whether we're 2nd best, 3rd best, or 10th
    best.  The fact is we've got a darn good frontline which is *one of*
    the best in the nation, definitely best in the ACC.  All of this won't 
    matter a bit if our guards can't hit the wide open 15 footer or turn 
    the ball over 20+ times a game, like they're currently doing.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Sorry ACChris, Georgia Techs 3 man game is ONE of the best in the
    land. SU's Coleman, Owens, and Thompson will make a run at it before
    the year is over. 
    			Raider_Rich
    

ACC games last night:

Wake Forest 67, Alabama 65
	Wake converted 2 late free throws to upset #20 'bama.
Duke 89, Davidson 44
	Coach K softens Davidson for Terry Holland next year.
Virginia 69, Richmond 57
	Will Bob Hunt's bliss ever end?

TTom

    .16�ACC games last night:
    
    one more...
    
    N.C. State beat up U.N.C. Asheville  110-73!  Tough game!
    
    
    Go Pack!
    B.A.

Yeah, after losing to East Tennessee St, I should count this one, too.

TTom

    .18�Yeah, after losing to East Tennessee St, I should count this one, too.
    
     I must say that ETSU is a real good team! They put the hurting on
    Oklahoma last year.They are also a shoe-in to win the Southern Conf.
    
    	I predict that ETSU will be a top twenty team, which is where some 
    other teams would like to be.
    
    B.A.
    

    You're right Chris, I apologize.  I was way out of line with my
    previous ACC prediction.  Please forgive me.
    
    Here is my thought-out (not wished-for) ACC prediction:
    
    	1) Anybody but Carolina
    	2-6) Ditto
    	7) Heels
    	8) Maryland
    
    There - I feel much better now.  thanks for setting me straight!
    
    NAZZ

	How did UNC do against Colorado State ?  Did they then beat
	up Massachusetts in the championship game ?

Oh Chris....

Umass won their first round game in the Colorado Classic....
Carolina lost theirs.....

therefore.......

  Umass is better than Carolina this year.......


Glad you admit it and have a Happy New Year....



Metz

    Enjoy guys, enjoy.  I'm munching, munching, munching, .... believe me. 
    All I need now is for Nazzaro to check in and I'll have eaten my fill
    of Crow Pie.  
    
    Never in my wildest dreams did I expect to give you Hourmen so much
    material to work with.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    UMass 78	Colorado 71
    
    The Wimps from Chapel Hill then turned around and lost to Colorado
    State out of fear of facing the mighty Minutemen.  The Heels then
    beat Colorado in the 3rd place game while Colorado State hammered
    the Minutemen for the title.
    
    John

    Ga. Tech blew away Pitt over the holidays with freshman Kenny Anderson
    getting 32 points, 18 assists and 12 rebounds. Not bad for a kid with
    only 8 games under his belt.
    
    Anyone have the current head-to-head results for ACC vs. Big Least for
    the year so far?
    
    Chris

NC State beat Seton Hall to win the ECAC Holiday Tourney. That puts State
at 3-0 against the Big East: Pitt, St. John's, Seton Hall.

TTom

    HEY ACC_CHRIS - HOW DID THE HEELS DO IN THE MILE HIGH CLASSIC?
    
    AH, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Is it true that when they saw the score of the first game, Carolina
    tanked their game against Colorado State to save themselves the
    indignity of the whuppin' that UMass was surely gonna give 'em.
    Timidity is the better part of valor, I guess, and now we just have
    to continue to wait to extract our revenge.  Ol' Dean is pretty
    smart to duck the Minutemen now, so that he'll probably be dead 
    and forgotten by the time the Heels agree to schedule UMass.
    
    NAZZ

    Me and Dean wanted to play UMass so bad we had the team geared to lose
    against Colorado St.  When UMass pulled off the unlikely win it was too
    late to change the game plan.

    'Nuf said.


    - ACC Chris

    

The ACC season starts tonight with Clemson at NC State. This should
feature the Tiger's strength in the front against State's guards, Monroe
and Corchiani. State in a close one (aren't they all?).

Meanwhile, the Tar Heels hope to rekindle the flames of their ardent
followers with an easy win over visiting Old Domininion. Should be a 
double figure difference. They hope.

TTom

Mr T cares, that's for sure. First he brings up the ACC in the Big 10
topic and now he's over here. Can't get enough, huh T?

TTom

    Brilliant note in .34.  NOTY material!  Great stuff MrT - keep it up. 
    Imagine that - "Who cares?".  Well I sure don't, do you TTom?  And I'll
    bet BobHunt hardly cares either.  Why, I'll bet the collective states
    of Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia will
    just snooze right thru the winter because, heaven forbid, we don't
    have anybody in the Associated Press Top 10 at present.
    
    Thanks MrT, and keep up the good work!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

ACC Results:

NC State 79, Clemson 77
	Gugliotta hit the winning jumper with 6 seconds to go. State was 
led by Brian Howard who's recovered from the flu and other minor maladies 
and scored 29.  Mickey Hinnant came off the bench to add 16. Clemson, led 
by Eldin Campbell's 29 points, shot 58% from the field.

No Carolina 90, Old Dominion 78
	The Tar Heels found somebody they can press. Even King Rice 
looked good in this affair. The real news is that Dean let Kenny Harris 
play. Lynch continues to develop while Madden is doing the Tar Heel
Senior Fade (tm).

Duke 108, The Citadel 69
	This wasn't that close. Duke shot over 60% from the field. 
Brickey, 22, and Henderson, 29, led Duke. The Citadel left for Chapel
Hill to try to schedule a more even constest.

One other note:
	Starting this year, the ACC will give a trophy to the team that 
wins the regular season. The ACC Title will still be awarded to the team 
that wins the tournament. The trophy will be passed on to subsequent 
winners. 

TTom

    re -.36
    The 9-0 Yellow Jackets will soon put the ACC back in the Top Ten, not
    that it matters in early January anyhow.
    
    re earlier Bozo comment-- if you don't care, why stress your little
    fingers on the keyboard? Use them to pull your foot out of your mouth
    so that you can reinsert your thumb.
    
    Chris

    .44�         <<< Note 25.44 by RHETT::KNORR "Just a great, great coach." >>>
    
    	Who's past his prime.
    
    B.A.
    

    I was actually thinking along the same lines until recently B.A.  Dean
    had 2 bad recruiting years in a row (one was mediocre, the other was
    awful) and I was starting to worry that maybe Deano was a little out of
    touch.  In terms of coaches getting old, it's the recruiting that's
    usually the first to go.
    
    But then came a solid campaign in '88-'89 and a #1 ranking in '89-'90. 
    No, he hasn't lost it.  Just lacking some guys who can dribble it and
    shoot it.  Carolina is in great shape for the 90's, but this
    year and the beginning of next will be rocky.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

The ACC is considering a limit on the number of hours an athlete can
spend on  sports. This would include practice and participation. The plan
will be voted on at the a Feb conference meeting.

TTom

Hoops resluts, over the weekend:

#9  Ga Tech 81, Wake 79
#10 Duke 76, Virginina 68 (16th straight loss by 'hoos to Duke)
#17 NC State 74, Temple 71
    Clemson 82, Maryland 77
    No Carolina 95, Pepperidine 69
	Note: The Tar Heels have caught UAB in the USA Today Poll with
		6 votes each.

TTom

    But the real news in the ACC is TTom.  He's maintained his "Carolina
    Comment after any win or loss" streak.  This time he even mananged to 
    shamelessly withhold comment on EVERY score, except for UNC.
    
    This streak will, of course, end when UNC blows by State in the polls. 
    (Are they allowing probation teams in the polls these days?  Heh heh!)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

ACC Chris,

Look again. I got in a Bob Hunt dig, too!

On the matter of polls, State is ineligible for the UPI poll as part of
an agreement with the coaches that vote in that one. As you can see from
the note I posted, State is hanging in with the USA-Today Poll (271
points to No Carolina's 6) and is still on most other polls.

Besides, I was being kind. I coulda said that No Carolina got less votes
than Idaho (7), but I wouldn't do that would I....

TTom

    
    Correct, but the only way they'll get there is if they win the ACC 
    tournment and get an automatic berth....
    
    mike

    Mike,
    
    We're currently 10-5, with those 5 losses coming against 5 teams who
    will probably all make the tourney.  (Missouri, Alabama, Iowa, Colorado
    St., and Georgetown)  
    
    For us to hit the 15 loss plateau during the regular season would
    require a 4-10 ACC record.  How much would YOU bet that we'll do any
    worse than .500?
    
    Hitting the 20-win mark during the regular season will require a 9-5
    effort, assuming a win over Miami (Fla.), our only remaining non-league
    game.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    
    Chris as you can see from above I do bet p-names ;^(....
    I guess with Maryland and Wake Forest around they might finish at
    .500 in the conference maybe not. Lord knows every team in the 
    conference must want to spank them while they're down.....
    
    time will tell.....and if we keep to p-names I might be interested in
    taking you up on that .500 record....
    
    mike

    Tigers will win the ACC title this year. With the Football team on
    probation they have decided to spent more money on Basketball ;^)

    
    I finally got to see the Rev. and his band of merry underachievers
    play last night and I think they'll be very fortunate just to make
    the NIT this year.  It's amazing how much talent Smif actually wastes
    on this team and how poor of a game coach he is.  With 12 minutes
    to go, NC down by 14, Smif has his boys shooting treys on almost
    every trip down the floor, allowing Maryland to get a few long rebounds
    that they turned into easy points on the break.  With that much
    time on the board, you should get the easy two and then work hard
    on Defense in order to get the ball back.  I couldn't believe how
    stupid Smif was last night.  He lost that game for NC, with his
    bonehead coaching.  It's no wonder he's only had one tainted title
    in all his years of coaching.
    
    C'mon Cyst wake up and smell the coffee.  Williams, Rice, Lynch,
    Fox, Chilcutt, Harris, Madden; all HS All-Americans and Smif continues
    to lose to inferior teams.  
    
    Cap
    

    I don't know what game you were watching last night Cap but based on
    your comments I can only conclude you don't know much about college
    basketball.  "Smif chokes on another".  Gimme a frockin break.
    
    In the first place, we didn't start shooting 3's with 12 minutes left. 
    It was more like 8 or 9 minutes left and we were down by 17.  And you
    know what?  The strategy almost worked.  We had the game down to a 4
    point spread and Maryland had to make a ton of free throws at the end
    to hang on.  
    
    More to the point is how could we get down by so much.  Turnovers was
    the primary culprit.  We had mass quantities of them.  This has plagued
    us all year (last year too) and it's primarily because we are simply a
    very, very slow team.  We have no quickness, and against a very quick
    team like Maryland these things will happen.  Your thought on digging
    down and playing tough D is bogus.  If you've got a quick team capable
    of forcing turnovers, maybe.  This UNC team ain't one of those, and if
    you don't believe it you're just flat-out wrong.
    
    Dean tried everything last night, and nothing was working.  At one
    point he was so discusted he yanked the entire starting 5 early in the
    2nd half.  He tried firing up the troops with a T.  We played zone,
    man-to-man, traps - it just wasn't our night.  
    
    And you know what?  We *still* made things interesting at the end.  I
    for one was proud of the boys last night because they played HARD right
    to the end, even when Maryland had salted it away.  This is a trademark
    of a well-coached team (read UNC).  
    
    To blame last nights loss on Dean is to show true ignorance of college
    basketball, or even basketball in general.
    
    
    - Chris

    Maybe he got a hold of Dock's BROKENRECORD.COM(tm) file......
    
    :-)
    
    Hawk

This is, of course, a theoretical inquiry into is it true that Dean was
the cause of last night's pasting at Maryland. Well, I think the true
nature of this possibility occurred not last night but began many years
ago when Dean spawned his system.

If you watched the game last night, towards the end, Rick Fox was burying
the 3. This is only unusual to the extent that this fine shooter is not
allowed to shoot that shot, normally. Anytime Rick needs a blow, take
that shot and you're on the bench. Certainly not the coaching technique
to emply for times that you might need it. Forget needing it, most teams
would want to use it all the time.

In any case, it was fun to watch Walt Williams score 30+, including a
couple of major jams, Mustaf before and above Scott Williams, and, most
humorously, Teyon McCoy get Denny rocking backwards, trying to cover
his superior speed - the Terps blew by the slow-footed Tar Heels at will.

BTW, State drubbed Boston U despite players continuously taking
themselves out of the game so they could watch the Tar Heels lose on TV.

TTom

    
    but Chris, who got the W? When you consider that Gary Williams came 
    into the game with less HS all-americans and has had only this season
    to work with these guys you gotta wonder? I mean why hasn't Scott 
    Williams became a dominate College Player? He has the size. One looks
    back to Brad Daugherty and knows why........
    
    mike

I'm not trying to break ranks with the Dean bashers but in all fairness
Maryland has some good players. Mustaf and Massengil play big. Mustaf is
especially quick for his size. Walt Williams is a 6'8" point guard that
is going to bother most teams. They have good team speed and certainly
last night were the better prepared team.

But then again, I wonder what this Tar Heel team would be like if Gary
Williams had coached them for 4 years.

TTom

    Comparing Scott Williams to Brad Daugherty is not fair.  Daugherty was
    a much better collegian than Scott and had 4 very solid years at
    Carolina.  If you look back at our record (and yes, NCAA Tourney
    performance) you'll find it to be outstanding.  If you're gonna gauge
    his success by NCAA Titles you'll say he was a "disapointing"
    collegian.  By any other standard he had a fine career.  (BTW - why is
    it everybody thinks he's such a great pro now, even though he hasn't
    won any NBA Titles, or even been to a Conference Championship game?)
    
    Scott was highly recruited and has been a good collegian.  He's off to
    a good start this year and played pretty well last night.  He had
    little help inside.  NOBODY, I REPEAT, NOBODY, EVER HAD SCOTT WILLIAMS
    LABELED AS A DOMINATING PLAYER OUT OF HIGH SCHOOL.  A fine player, yes. 
    A future NBA player, yes.  But not dominating.  He was a Top 25 HS
    player, not top 10 or even top 5.  I'd say he's lived up to his billing
    reasonably well, particularly when you factor in the mega-problems he's
    encountered in his personal life.
    
    The biggest problem this team has is lack of quickness and lack of
    consistent outside shooting.  Quickness is especially painful because
    it affects both your rebounding and defense.  It showed last night.
    Fox *has* been looking for his shot more TTom.
    I think it would be a foolish offensive strategy to start
    playing like Kentucky and take 3's all game, especially when your
    strength is inside.  If we're going to have any success this year it's
    going to be from banging inside, not firing 3's.  If the 3 point shot
    is there, he takes it.  Only at the end of the game when we only want
    a 3 is he forcing them.  Last night he was hot when forcing these up, so
    everybody's Monday Morning Quarterbacking saying "why didn't he take
    these all game?".  Not fair TTom and you know it.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    Yeah but Cyst, King Rice was judged to be a dominating talent coming
    out of HS and look what Dean did to him.  He looks lost out there.
    
    Oh by the way, I just dug out the tape of last night's game and
    yes Carolina started their run of three's at the 12 minute mark.
    Your ignorance of B-ball remarks just don't cut it as I'll put my
    knowledge(18 years of organized ball, 3 years as a coach and 5 years
    of reffing up agianst your regurgitation of 'good losses' any day.
    
    Dean's lost it, he couldn't coach his way out of a paper bag.  Last
    night especially showed it.  There is no way that team should have
    lost to Maryland.  They looked lost, committed a rash of stupid
    turnovers and played some of the worst defens that I've seen this
    year.  That's the fault of the coach.
    
    Let's face Smif without super talent equals 'ugly losses'.
    
    Oh yeah, at least I don't regurgitate my b-ball knowledge from some
    newsletter.
    
    Cap

I didn't start my Fick Fox campaign today. This is not a new theme with
me. Check the notes. Dean sits on Fox, pure and simple. Nor did I
advocate that the Tar Heels adopt a run and gun offense. I suggested that
if a guy has a good offensive weapon - and I assert that Fox has the
tools to be a good scorer - you don't develop that by putting handcuffs
on him.

Get a grip, Chris. The underlying theme of a lot of this is that some
think this same collection of players could perform better within another
system - as in almost any other system. Dean is making a crucial mistake
in thinking that he can coach this group like he did when he had players
like he's used to (e.g., Brad Daugherty since you alluded to him). 

TTom

    Wow - the man brings his videotape of the UNC-Maryland game to work
    with him.  I'm impressed.  We may have taken some 3's at the 12-minute
    mark, but we did NOT start singularly going to that option until well
    beyond that.  In any case, that's how we started to get back in the
    game, so maybe we *should've* gone to it sooner.
    
    As to your hoops knowledge, I'll tell ya what.  I'll rank your 18 years
    of "organized ball", etc, etc. with Dean's 29 years as head coach, Hall
    of Fame membership, and countless other records and achievements *any
    day*.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    No TTom.  The underlying theme is that Cap made the outrageous
    assertion that Dean choked away last nights game.  
    
    If you want to make the assertion that this team would do better with
    another coach, fine.  It's easy to 2nd guess, especially when a team is
    struggling.  This is the first time in around 20 years that UNC has
    gotten off to this bad a start.  Other great coaches have had bad starts -
    some even worse.  (Knight and Crum come to mind.)  It seems to me that,
    given the remarkable success the man has had, you oughta give him the
    benefit of the doubt.  And don't forget, the season's relatively young. 
    I'm willing to bet we won't be the only ACC team to go into Maryland
    and come away with a loss.  They're not a bad team, especially playing
    at home.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

Sorry Cyst, I'm at home watching Smif and his boys get their hineys
    handed to them.
    
    Your reading comprehension skills sure are lacking.  I wrote that
    I'd put my B-ball knowledge up against yours anyday.
                                     
    But hell when you're frustrated  I guess you'll try anything to
    deflect criticism off the demigod, Reverand Smif'.
    
    Cap

    Since you're critizing Dean I'm assuming you think you know more about
    coaching than him.  Thus, *my* comparison of Dean vs. you is valid.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    
    BTW - To show my true objectivity, even you Cap, can enter my 
          Contest, assuming you live in the Boston area!  What a guy
    	  I am, eh?   Heh heh!

    
    Simply put Chris, Brad Daugherty never was aggressive in college.
    He could pass, shoot and rebound at times, the skills were there.
    Now he seeks out his offense aggressively which has in turn opened
    up his passing game even more. He's also more aggressive defensively
    and on the boards. He always had the size, tools and brains..
    
    Agression is a mental state brought out it would appear by Lenny
    Wilkins probably with some help from Embry. Dean never natured,
    another reason for so little titles....
    
    mike

We shall see what else happens in the ACC this year.

Of one thing we are all - I think - agreed: this is some hard times for
the Boys in Baby Blue. I'll go so far as to say that my respect for Dean
will go up if this team turns it around. I don't consider 8-8 in the ACC
and an invite to the NCAAs as turning anything around. I'm not on the
list of those that see them headed for the NIT. If y'all get 19 wins (8
from the ACC and that 1 other you mentioned), y'all will get an invite.

TTom

    ACC_Chris = Sports Objective analyst
    
    NAZZ

Besides George Lynch, which of the other NC freshman are future
All-American types?   That kid from Germany looked lost.. the big
guy they brought in in the first half looked bad too.  

I like Lynch.  I think Lynch could be a dominating player RIGHT NOW
if Dean would put aside his ego to allow a freshman to star... and 
forget about guys like Madden and Rice.

Doug,

The only other freshman of any note is Kenny Harris, who hasn't/doesn't
fit into Dean's scheme, at this point anyway. 

To state in other terms how bad it is: the Baby Blue faithful are already
talking about next year's crop.

TTom

Back to real basketball....

Ga Tech plays Duke tonight. Matchups include freshmen Bobby Hurley (Duke)
up against Kenny Anderson (Ga Tech). Tech has no one to match up with
Laettner and Duke shouldn't be able to cover Scott. Oliver and Henderson
are about the same. So the difference in the game could be decided by
how well Duke takes advantage of Ga Tech on the inside and/or how
effectively Ga Tech plays bombs away.

TTom

    
    re-TTom,
    	
    	You hit it right on the number, the inside game of Tech! Duke had
    more muscle inside. Duke did some pretty good outside shooting,but it
    was the overall inside game that did it for them.  Good game, better
    then the blowout Wed. night(a.k.a the Maryland win)!
    
    B.A.

    
    Didn't see the entire game as wife was actual able to wrestle the
    remote control away from me after I bought it from the kids. What
    I did see was excellent basketball by both sides though when I was
    tuned. Considering Duke played without Brickey you realize just
    how tough they are. You got to like Hurley and Mcafferty they play
    with the heads up.
    
    Anderson is all he was published to be, but tends to shoot at the 
    wrong times as does Scott. A little more patiences in the Georgia
    Tech offense would go along way towards making them a solid contender.
    They need it cause they aren't as already stated strong in the middle..
    
    mike 

I, for one, was surprised that Ga Tech blew their lead last night.
Usually, when they get in the flow - and they certainly were in the flow
for a good while - Scott buries them. Kenny Anderson had a streak where
everytime he had the ball down court Tech scored. And the kid has a nice
shot but needs to learn to square up and then look out.

Tech has a great trio in Oliver, Scott and Anderson. A strong inside game
will always give them problems.

BTW, has anyone else noticed how much weight Scott has lost this season.
He used to be of the chubette ilk but now he's a lean, mean scoring
machine.

Matchups this weekend:
	Bob Hunt at ACC Chris - the 'hoos at the heels.
	Ga Tech at NC State - Scott and Anderson vs Monroe and Corchiani 
	Maryland at Duke - Mustaf on Laettner
	Wake at Clemson - the Deamon Deacon pray against Campbell and Davis

TTom

    As a college BB fan, last night's game was one of the best 
    non-NCAA title game I'd ever seen.  It had it all.  Too bad
    the Yellow Jackets blew it.
    
    I think fatigue had something to do with it for Ga. Tech.
    The heat, the pace, and the playing time for the starters,
    Anderson in particular, was what done them in.  Did anybody notice
    that after they got the 10 point lead, nobody (Ga. Tech) really played for
    the rebound, and they appeared to be flat footed?  I think it was
    a mental and physical relaxing thing.
    
    Gawd, I'm gonna love the next 4 years of Anderson vs. Hurley!
    "In Yo Face Mannn" every time they get together.  
    
    All in all, it was a super contest.  Thanks go out to both
    teams for a very very enjoyable, well played game.
    
    Oh yeah, the ref's did a terriffic job and showed a lot of
    patience and consistency.
    
    Kev_OW(tm)
    

    The thing I hate about watching college hoops is the endless parade
    to the foul line down the stretch and the constant time outs.  Last
    night's game had neither.  I loved it!
    
    If Bobby Hurley played for any other ACC school except Duke, he'd
    be up there with Mike O'Koren on their all-time, all-ugly team.
    
    John

ACC results:

No Carolina 92, Virginia 70	(NO CAROLINA 6)
	Scott Williams scored 31 (career high). Virginia had no chance.
	Scott's grandmother flew in from California, replete with Mo Jo. 
	Williams shot 12-12 from the fields. The Cavs looked more like 
	Davidson (Holland's 1991 team), shooting less than 40%. 

Ga Tech 92, State 85	(GA TECH 3)
	Brian Oliver reminded everyone, especially the Wolfpack, that 
	he's as important as Scott and Anderson. He scored 27 but as 
	important he came back from an ankle injury to stretch the lead. 
	The Pack got 13 points and 6 rebounds from freshman Bryant 
	Feggins. State trailed by 15 at the 6 minute mark.

Clemson 76, Wake 57	(CLEMSON 11)
	Dale Davis is playing like the ACC POY he hopes to be: 14 
	rebounds, 20 points. But the newest feature of the Tigers are the 
	gurads who are coming on, especially Marion Cash. Wake heads for 
	the Cellar while Clemson heads for the top.

Duke 91, Maryland 80	(DUKE 15)
	The starting front line of Duke outscored that of the Terps 
	61-46, led by Abdelnaby's 22 and Laettner's 27. Typical of a game 
	at Cameron Indoor Stadium, Christian shot 13 free throws. 
	Unfortunately, the Terps hadn't stolen any underwear or pizzas, 
	so the crowd was a little lame.

TTom

    re Tech v. Duke game
    
    Great game, but a heartbreaker for Tech fans. I think Tech and Duke
    will be battling all year for the top spot in the ACC, and Tech really
    needed to hold serve at home. Now we'll just have to kick butt in
    Durham.
    
    I thought the key to the game was Tech's shooting went cold in the last
    9 minutes. They really didn't turn the ball over during Duke's 17-2
    run, they just couldn't put the ball in the hoop. Their shot selection
    wasn't too good either, and Duke did raise their defensive effort to a
    higher level. These are two very good basketball teams.
    
    Tech bounced right back with a win over a tough N.C. State team on Sat.
    I didn't get much info on the game, but it sounded like Tech had the
    game pretty well under control with a fifteen point lead until it
    degraded into a free throw shooting contest.
    
    Chris
    

    			LIVING UP TO ITS IMAGE
    
    The ACC commissioner said the league's image won't be tarnished
    despite the possibility of having three of its eight teams on
    probation.  N.C. State's basketball program recently was hit with
    two year's probation, and the NCAA is investigating Maryland basketball
    as well as Clemson football.
    
    "I hate that this happened," commissioner Gene Corrigan said.  "We
    all hate that this happened.  Does it help us?  No.  Does it ruin
    our image?  No.  Does it change the way the Big Ten or Notre Dame
    feel about us?  No...  I don't think it hurts the ACC's image, as
    long as you consider the other schools that we have in the league.
    They're the reputation of the conferences in many ways, anyway."

    What logic....:)
    

    	Hey MrT, what's the BIG1?  Knight's ego?  All you have to do
    is watch ESPN's "Lighter Side of Sports" to realize that anyone
    as dumb as Valvano would have to cheat to win.
    
    				/Don

Corrigan has been studying scripts from the Big East How to Make Money
Using Public Relations home study kit.

And it doesn't take a pro-ACC or an anti-ACC fan long to know that Gene
blew it on this one. There was a lot he could have said like "We'll
recover" but to think that the probations have no impact is a little
skewed.

If asked the same questions, NC State would have had a much different
response. The position there is that in fact the probation for the
basketball team has hurt the school, the team/program and the coach.

However, I think that many people see the troubles with State and
Clemson as something distinct from the programs at Duke, Virginia and
Carolina.

TTom

re: .94

The main thing that Valvano did to "cheat to win" was to qualify to play
the final against Guy Lewis. Not too dumb.

TTom

    ACC is not that bad.  Just get rid of that guy.

    
    Speaking of Valvano...
    
    He was fired from Lighter Side Of Sports and will be replaced with Lyle
    Alzado. 

    I've said it before and I'll say it again:  The ACC should *dump*
    Clemson.  If you want to know why you need look no further than this
    NOTES conference.  Every other ACC fan puts notes in .25.  The Clemson
    fans feel they must have their *own* note.  And you thought UNC had
    arrogant fans.  :^(  They're a renegade school with renegade fans and
    *deserve* to be independent.
    
    Clemson aside, the troubles at Maryland and State are a little more
    typical of problems we've had in the past.  But I wouldn't get all
    high-and-mighty if I was a Big Ten Bigot.  Illinois is traveling down
    probation road and Iowa's been pointed at, both involving their
    recruitment of Deon Thomas.  MrT is an authority on Minnesota's
    troubles, and even Indiana was implicated (if not convicted) in the
    recruitment of Funderburke.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    RE-1
    
    Sounds like sour grapes from a bitter UNC fan. I might feel the same
    way you do if Clemson had a year like UNC has in Football and
    Basketball. ;^)

    .101�                           -< Frustrated ACC Chris? >-
    
    Rich,
    	He just don't know how to handle losing! Like the way you tiger
    fans do...
    
    B.A.
    

    Wow.  I'm just impressed that the "Raving One" actually *reads* the
    Atlantic Coast Conference note.  (I suspect he doesn't and somebody
    just tipped him off via e-mail, but that's just a guess.)
    
    UNC jealous of Clemsuck (tm)?  HA HAH HAH HAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111
    
    Even BobHunt might get a laugh out of that one.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    Nah, nothing to laugh about, Chris.
    
    I was the first one in this forum to propose that Clemson be
    expelled from the conference if they could not run a clean
    athletic  program.   I see nothing that makes me want to retract
    that suggestion.   I believe that Clemson's boosters are out of
    control and that the priorities of the university need serious
    reconsideration.
    
    I just sit here sometimes and keep praying that my beloved Wahoos
    stay clean.  So far, they have.
    
    The ACC can be a lot cleaner.   Corrigan should be at the
    forefront of this effort rather than trying to downplay the whole
    thing.  Although I would agree that the ACC is not as bad as some
    other conferences (the SWC, for example), being "not as bad" is
    not the same thing as being "clean".
    
    We've got to get our act together or boot 'em out.
    
    Bob Hunt
    

    Big one tonight in the ACC with Duke visiting Chapel Hill.  Dickie will
    be fired up, I'll be fired up, Dean & the Dome will be fired up, the
    Dukesters will be .... I think you get the idea!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

Go Dean!  Go Heels!  George Lynch is God!   Scott Williams := Lottery Pick!

{now about those tix...}

    >Dickie will be fired up, I'll be fired up,.....
    
    >- ACC Chris
     
    ACC Chris,
    
    I know you really like Dean and the Tar heels, but firing up Dickie
    during the game is going to make you go blind and put hair on your
    hands.
    
    Cap :-)

Tonight's lines:

	VIRGINIA	5^	maryland
	NO CAROLINA	2^	duke

Virginia and Maryland are both coming off blow outs on the road. The Cavs
should enjoy the home court advantage and barely cover.

In the other game, Duke will go out to a double digit lead and Dean will
get the Heels back in the game late, but alas, Coach K and the Blue
Devils hold on to win. The last 3 minutes of the game should take about
45 minutes with Dean calling time outs and substituting after every
basket.

TTom

    I may wrong, but wasnt NC State's probation due to infractions
    by the players (ie. selling comp tix, selling comp sneaks etc)?
    If this is the case, then the infractions are, in the words of the
    NCAA, "minor". 
    			Jus' Wonderin'
    			 Raider_Rich
    

The actual offenses for which the NCAA placed State on probation were
those committed by the players. However, if that were all that was wrong
with the basketball program, these may have never been found.

TTom

    It's official Danny was forced to resign today. Life goes on....

    Last night it was CLEMSON 97
                      Western Carolina 61
    
    At one time the score was 51-45 before the Tigers got it in gear. Look
    out ACC the Tigers are now the favorites to win the Title.

I can't believe I'm doing this, but I want MrT to enter my little
contest so badly I'm actually offering him this conciliatory
note.

Now head over to 110 PRONTO and enter that pro-Carolina note.  That
T-shirt *needs* you!


- ACC Chris


Fellow SPORTS compatriots,

As many of you realize MrT was tried and convicted of forgery last year.
Specifically, he entered a note which I supposedly entered and then 
deleted which was obviously a forgery.  The context had "MrT" all over it, 
what with him saying some nasty stuff about Dean and all.  What's worse, T,
being a salesy type, made several blatant errors around the note which
rendered it *impossible* to have been written by myself.  His attempted
coverup proved so foolish and embarassing that he ended up huffing away,
stating he wouldn't be back in SPORTS until, apparently, his name was
cleared.

Well we all know that *that* isn't possible, but given the time he's 
served (we've been free from MrT diatribes for many months now) I'd
like to propose a pardon.  Since I was the offended party I feel I
have the authority to do this, but if there's strong opposition I'll
go along with the majority.  Perhaps we could offer him some type of probation,
say for a week or two.  If he stays clean we could extend it to a month.
After a month, 6 months, etc.  I don't envision the day when we can
ever "take our eye" off him, but it's downright unAmerican to not give
a man a 2nd chance.  In sum, if Willie Horton deserved a 2nd chance, then
certainly MrT does.  

So, from the bottom of my heart, you're forgiven MrT.  Go, and sin no
more.   (And we'll be watching just in case you do.)



- ACC Chris
    

       Sounds good to me, but I'd make him do some kind of 'community
    service'. 
                                          Denny

    Only if T convinces Chris to give my little girl and me (or LEe) those 2
    danged Celtics passes........
    
    Buzz

    	What kind of 'community service' could we make T do?  Restrict
    his notes to 100 lines or less?
    
    				/Don

I think we should restrict his replies to 24 lines or less...

If he can manage that for 1 month then I think he's been cured.


My $.02,


  Metz

    
    what's wrong with being a salesy type?

At least I admit when I've resorted to illegal tactics T. I don't whine, pander
about and play ghostly games.

You wouldn't have stood a chance alone in the NOTY vote T. You were the Dan 
Quail to John Hendry's George Bush. You're just lucky he took pity on you like
our president did for Danny. Without him you'd still be a nothing....

Metz

BTW - There are no rules for NOTY....:-)

    > what's wrong with being a salesy type?
    
    Simple, Bruce.  Take the word "salesy" and place the "le" between the
    "s" and the "a".  Nexted, substitute a "z" for the 2nd "s" and, what
    have you got?
    
    Hope this helps.  :-)
    
    Hawk

    
    I say no restrictions. The more lines the better the content....
    
    mike

    
    re .125
    
    Yea, but if you take the letters "techno" out of "technoweenie"
    look what you get.
    
    Besides, it's we salesy-types who are out in the trenches every
    day protecting your job.  8^)
    
    Bruce

    Bruce, I'm a non-technoweenie, so if I take out the "techno", I'm a
    "non-weenie"!  Just axe my wife......  :-)
    
    Oh, and thanks for "protecting" my job.  Now get back to work so I can
    have a raise too!  :-)
    
    Hawk

    
    re -1
    
    OK, how's this.  Take the beer out of Hawk and what do you have?
    
    nuttin
    
    
    BTW, it's still morning here, so I got plenty of time to protect
    your job and get you a raise.  8^)
                                      
    Bruce                            
    
    

    Thanks, Bruce.  When I get the raise, I'll buy you a beer!
    
    Hawk

    Don't get too excited the Tigers are going to whip some Tarheel rear
    end.  ;^)

    Dean, of course.

    Heels beat Wake to go 4-1 in the ACC.
    
    Next time we're struggling I'm gonna send out a personal plea to Cap to
    berate Dean again.  It seems to have turned us around.
    
    Hah!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    re -1
    
    Yeah Dean must have turned the coaching duties over to an assistant
    like he did all the years that he rode Roy Williams coattails.......
    
    We'll see where the end up, still a long way for Dean to choke.
    Anyway I want to see them in the NCAA's so Dean can do his annual
    choke job and then I can read a few more hundred of your "I'm really
    proud of our good losses" notes....
    
    Cap

    Chances of you getting the tickets are mighty slim indeed Cap.  Me and
    Dean may be fair, but we also hold a grudge!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Anybody catch wind of the Bobby Fight (tm) style deeds that his clone,
    Mike K has been up to??  Seems Mike took exception to an article
    published by the Duke school newspaper about the basketball team and
    proceeded to call them all together and verbally abuse them.  (Wonder
    where he picked *that* little talent up from??)  The article supposedly
    "graded" each of the Duke players (i.e. "A" for Laettner, "B-" for
    Hurley - he flunked his test against Carolina though. Heh!, etc., etc.)
    
    Classy move Coach K.  Keep it up and you may get to coach the Olympic
    team after all, but it might be the USSR's!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    ACC Chris,
    
    You mean you would penalize me for a simple joke?  I thought you
    stood for integrity, honor and honesty like your mentor Dean Smith.
    
    Hey, I was responsible in part for NC winning streak, so don't I
    get bonus points for that....
    
    Cap
    
    P.S.  You're really reaching for potshots at Knight and it's not
    very becoming of you.  Coach K is his own man......

    Chances of you making my Sweet Sixteen Cap (specially with that p-name. 
    GROSS. Not to mention ridiculous.) are approximately equivalent to the
    chances of Mother Teresa getting in the ring with Iron Mike and
    delivering a knockout blow.  ZERO.  SLIM.  ZILCH. NADA.  (I think you
    get the point here.)
    
    True, CoachK is his own "man".  (You gotta be pretty manly to verbally
    abuse and intimidate a bunch of college kids, I'll tell ya.)  And
    perhaps it is a bit unfair of me to lump his mentor in with him on an
    issue in which he's clearly in the wrong.  
    
    But I gotta call 'em as I see 'em.  And in this case, K's behavior 
    so matches the well-known signature of his teacher that it's just 
    too delicious (and obvious) to pass up.
    
    Sorry.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Some big games coming up in the ACC this week, including tomorrow
    night's NC State @ Duke matchup.  Potential here for an excellent
    contest.  We'll see how State responds after somewhat of a poor showing
    against Carolina.
    
    Also coming up:
    
    1/24 (WED)	Virginia @ Virginia Tech
    
    1/25 (THUR) Georgia Tech @ Clemson  (Must win here for Clemson.  After
    					 this game they go on the road to
    					 Chapel Hill & Durham.)
    
    1/27 (SAT)  Maryland @ NC State
    		Clemson @ UNC
    		
    1/28 (SUN)  Georgia Tech @ Duke
    		Virginia @ Wake Forest
    
    1/31 (WED)  Clemson @ Duke
    	        Colorado @ Wake Forest
    		Virginia @ NC State
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

To paraphrase MrT: something old, something Clemson, something wrong,
something irrelevant and something asserted.

Where's the meat? How do you really feel about these dire issues?

TTom

    	Hey T, why won't Mr. Morals (a.k.a. Tubby Knight) give Funderburke
    his release so he cain go to Kaintuk?  Is he worried about the academic
    standards at Kaintuk, or being petty?
    
    				/Don

Big game tonight: NC State at Duke.

State needs to beat a rated team to stay rated. Duke needs the win this
league gaem at home. Latest line was Duke favored by 6 1/2.

An additional concern for the Wolfpack is the threat by Coach K to
verbally abuse them if they win. This apparently is in keeping with his
new coaching style.

TTom

    Hmmm ...  T raggin' on the ACC again, eh ???   Haven't we seen
    this movie before ???
    
    C'mon T, with the exception of the recent brawl, you're just
    dredging up your old biases against the ACC.
    
    Shall we bring up the old Minnesota gang rape mess that cost
    Jim Dutcher his job ???
    
    Not to mention Illinois' probation problems and the Iowa basketball
    players who had the creampuff course loads.
    
    Or how about this little item that showed up in *today's* edition
    of USA Today ...
    
    The University of Michigan baseball team is under NCAA
    investigation for illegal payments to players.   *If* the
    investigation proves that the infractions occurred, this will be
    the first time Michigan will ever be slapped with NCAA penalties.
    
    So, how about if you make sure your own backyard, the Big Ten, is
    clean before you point your soiled fingers at the entire ACC.
    
    You cannot compare one program, Indiana, to an entire conference,
    the ACC.  You must compare program-to-program or
    conference-to-conference.   If you do, you'll find some good and
    some not so good in both conferences.
    
    Which hopefully will end this rathole forever ...
    
    Bob Hunt

    Gee, I didn't know North Carolina A&T (and whoever else it was) was in
    the ACC.
    
    Guess we're adding teams too, huh?
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

T,

Great verb, that node name of yours. 

And as a resident of the region that you've chosen as your crusade, let
me be the first to say how much better I feel about all this now that you
have so clearly and objectively delineated the issues. I'm sure that I
speak for the populace when I say that we are a better place to live
because of your efforts.

TTom

    And the oh-so-clean Big Ten has *never* ever had an on-court
    brawl, T ???
    
    Let us not forget that famous incident (circa 1972) where the
    Minnesota players decided to mix it up with the Ohio State boys. 
    
    Wasn't there one Gopher who went to help a Buckeye get up off the
    floor and kneed him in the groin as he got to his feet ???
    
    Class act, that Big Ten conference.   Any convictions result from
    that one, T ???
    
    Again, I do not dispute your assertions that justice seems lax
    down Tobacco Road.  I believe Driesell should have been indicted
    and tried.   And you know how I feel about Clemson's program.  And
    I think the recent brawl between the two small schools was
    extremely poor and that some criminal charges should come out of
    that, too.
    
    All I'm trying to say is "glass houses", T.   Glass houses.
    
    Bob Hunt

�    	  As for the accusations in Madison (which is the most leftist,
�    	  feminist metro area in the United States),

	It's evident from this comment that you've never been to the 
People's Republic of Boulder, Colorado.

Mike JN

    or, to the People's Republics of Amherst, Mass and Cambridge, Mass.
    
    John (who spent 5 years in the People's Republic of Amherst and
    who has seen it get worse each year since I've left)

    
    	Wasn't that Minnesota player that kicked the Ohio player none
     other than Dave Winfield.
    

    	Winfield was on the team, but I don't think he kicked the Ohio
    State player in the filberts.
    
    				/Don

    I dont see how punishing the players for an incident that got out
    of hand because of spectators will do any good. Granted the players
    involved in the fracas arent free of blame, but the crowd reaction
    was terrifying. This summer I'll probably see one of the players
    involved, Glenn Taggert from A&T, and I'll be interested to hear
    his reaction. If any of you guys are in the Rochester NY area during
    the summer months, stop by Cobbs Hill Park, ranked by basketball
    mags as the 10th best playground competition in the country in 1987.
    Chances are you'll see Tony Scott from SU, Greg Woodard from 'Nova,
    and Taggert from NC A&T. I'm transferring out, so I'll be there
    on my visits "home".
    				Raider_Rich  

    I had heard that the schools are punishing (expelling?) any students
    they can identify from the video tapes.  Not true anymore?
    
    	--dan'l

Come on guys, leave it lay before T brings out the big guns and starts
comparing Jesse Helms to Dan Quayle.

TTom

�    If anything I regard Boulder and the school there as right wing
�    cowboy with the usual fringe of college hangers on ragtag. 
�    I wasn't aware that Boulder was especially political at all, except 
�    maybe for active chapters of DAR, Young Republicans and YAF. 

Good Grief T !!!

	Where in hell did you hang out in Boulder ?!?!

	Boulder is practically the only bastion of atavistic-liberal,
pseudo-intellectual, neo-militant-fascist-feminist, hand-wringing,
breast-beating, inept packs of hyena-like doo-doo gooders in the entire state!
Although there are real live honest-to-god working cowboys in Colorado, the
only cowboys you'll find in Boulder are of the urban variety, and they think a
mechanical bull is a Democratic Party Propaganda Machine.

H T H
Mike JN

    This ain't the "Mid-Atlantic States Sports" note T.  It's "ATLANTIC
    COAST CONFERENCE". 
    
    Glad I could help.
    
    
    - Atlantic Coast Conference Chris
      -        -     -
    

    Tonight the Yellow Jackets stinger won't be enough. This
    Victory will leave the TIGERS tied for First place...
                                                       

    Tough loss for the Pack last night.  They had this game won if Monroe
    had made the 2nd of 2 free throws in regulation.  Then, after Billy 
    McCafferty completely chocked 2 free throws (neither were even close, 
    and he's 80%+!) the Dukesters miraculously tipped the ball in, effectively
    sending the game into OT.  Duke pulls it out in the overtime.
    
    Duke shouldn't feel overly good about winning this game.  First, they
    should have lost.  Second, Monroe shot 6-26!  Third, they were
    at home.  A win is a win though, no matter how ugly it is.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    
    
    

    Gotta love the Duke students ...
    
    Last night during pre-game activities, they showered the court
    with 50-75 pairs of sneakers.
    
    This, of course, was a dig at NC State's recent problems with the
    NCAA wherein some of the Wolfpack players were found to have been
    selling their basketball shoes.
    
    Reminds you of the time they threw ladies underwear at Maryland's
    Herman Veal when he was involved in a sexual assault case.
    
    They are way too funny ...
    
    Bob Hunt

    And how about the classless move by the Dukie students when 
    Arizona was playing at Dukie. One of the Az. players father was
    kidnapped in Lebenon and the chanted "Hostage" or something else
    that you wouldnt think an acedemic institution as highly regarded
    as Duke would say. Sneakers are funny, but dont get personal, and
    I heard the kid from Az. was really shook up about the whole deal.
    Anyone remember his name? Damn, I caint think of it...Steve something
    Kerr. THATS IT!! Anyway, the Duke studdent body president apologied
    to the Kerr family but that really inhaled.
    				Raider_Rich
    

    That didn't happen at Duke, that happened at Arizona State.
    
    Steve Kerr was the Arizona player.  His dad, Malcolm Kerr, was the
    head of an American school over in Beirut.  While Kerr was a freshman
    at Arizona, his dad was kidnapped and murdered.  Kerr came out and
    played a game right after his dad's death and played great - he
    was Lute Olsen's last recruit during Olsen's first year at Arizona.
    
    Kerr's senior year was the year that the incident happened.  Arizona
    was dominating the Pac 10 and went to Tempe to play a late season
    game against State.  While Arizona was shooting around way before
    the game, some early arriving students were making chants about
    the incident.  Kerr was very badly shaken up but went out and
    absolutely torched State that night.  To his credit, he wrote a
    letter to the U of A student newspaper requesting that the Arizona
    students not retaliate against State when the Pac 10 tournament
    was being held at Arizona.  Kerr got a letter from someone at State
    saying they did that because of the s*it State took when they went
    to play at Arizona.  This was also the year Arizona went to the
    Final Four and the entire incident is well-chronicled in John
    Feinstein's _A Season Inside_.
    
    The Duke fans have done many tasteless, classless things, most of
    which are pretty funny, but this wasn't one of them.
    
    John

    The Duke fans are obnoxious, bratty, *holes.  
    
    Last year they held up pizzas against State, a jab at Avie Lester who
    has an acne problem.  Is that funny?
    
    And then there's the infamous "JR can't Reid" signs, which are
    tasteless, not to mention racist.
    
    I have no tolerance for this kind of thing, though I'll admit the
    sneaker prank was aboveboard and pretty funny.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

   � The Duke fans are obnoxious, bratty, *holes.  
    
    Yes, they are.  And they are very clever, too.   In contrast to
    those squeaky clean-cut, baby blue, and terminally *dull*
    pre-yuppies over at Chapel Hill who can't think of anything more
    original than "Go Heels Go".
    
   � Last year they held up pizzas against State, a jab at Avie Lester who
   � has an acne problem.  Is that funny?
    
    As a matter of fact, yes, in a sly way.   I'm sure Avie Lester
    didn't think it was very funny but acne is hardly a life-and-death
    matter.   Comes with the territory.
    
   � And then there's the infamous "JR can't Reid" signs, which are
   � tasteless, not to mention racist.
    
    How is this racist, Soup ???   Are you implying that the Duke
    students thought JR couldn't read because he was black ???  If so,
    where's your proof ???  Didn't say it on the actual signs they
    held up, did it ???   And besides, if it were really true that JR
    was indeed illiterate (which *everyone* knew was false), how could
    a written sign help attract his attention ???
    
    Could it merely have been just a clever play on words ???
    
   � I have no tolerance for this kind of thing, though I'll admit the
   � sneaker prank was aboveboard and pretty funny.
    
    Back in the days when I was at UVA, the Duke students rattled
    their car keys at NC State's Clyde Austin (who's now a
    Globetrotter, by the way) because he was driving a very suspect
    hot sports car around Raleigh.
    
    Tasteless ???  Not really.   Clever ???   I think so.
    
    Bob Hunt
        

    .172�   � And then there's the infamous "JR can't Reid" signs, which are
    .172�   � tasteless, not to mention racist.
    
    re-1,
    	Thank you Hunt!
    
    B.A.

    John, thanks for the clarification. I thought it MUST have the Dukies.
    Oh well, it still s*cked. 
    				Raider_Rich
    

    In this year's addition of the Sporting News Basketball Issue, coaches
    around the country were polled as to the best and worst of everything. 
    Duke was listed as having the best fans.  One coach hit the nail on the
    head when he called them "intelligently obnoxious."
    
    The Duke fans have the *respect* of the college coaches polled.  Why
    can't yunz drop your biases and give them that respect.  They are not
    racist and they are not *holes.  They are the best in the business. 
    
    	--dan (who hates the ACC - tonight's CBS shows in Charlotte get
    	       pre-empted for GA Tech at Clemson - Yawn.)

    Sorry, but I cain't agree.  Saying that acne is not "life or death" is
    a feeble argument Ketch and you know it.  Racism isn't "life or death"
    either (in most cases).  Are you going to say it's not tasteless and
    wrong?  The pizza thing crossed the boundary of good taste.  My
    brother had bad acne and I can tell you from personal experience
    it's no laughing matter, especially when you're in those hell-
    hole teenage years.  Clever?  Sure.  Life or Death?  Nah.  Tasteless?
    Definitely.
    
    My foundation for calling the Duke bit on Reid "racist" (and BTW, I'm
    not alone in this feeling.  Dean called it the same thing) is based on
    the simple fact that, IMO, if JR were white there would've been no
    Sign.  Can I prove this?  Heck no.  But the fact is a presumption was
    made on his intelligence (he is, in fact, very intelligent, but that's
    not the issue).  Now, how many times can you think of that a presumption 
    (stereotype) is made on a *white* athlete that he "Can't Read"?  Not often.
    
    I can't prove any of this so it's all just opinion.  Might as well
    agree to disagree cause you won't change my mind on either point and
    (sadly) I probably won't change yours.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    
    
    
    

You got your ACC bigot who thinks that Duke are *holes. You got your ACC
haters who think that Duke fans the best in the business.

No wonder MrT is raising concerns about this region.

TTom

    .177�No wonder MrT is raising concerns about this region.

    Isn't MrT a Big 10 fan? If so, He might want to concern himself with 
    Illinois! They're looking dead at the death penalty.

    B.A.

    Re. ACC_Chris and his god (Note .176):
    
    Well golly gee, heck, gol darn it, if ol' Dean said it, it must be
    true.  Dad gum it, if ol' Dean thinks it's racist, it must be.
    
    Jest 'cuz it happened to one of his players wouldn't affect his
    judgment would it?  Nah, not ol' Dean.
    
    Keep wearin' those pale blue glasses, Chris.  You wouldn't be you
    without 'em!
    
    NAZZ 

This week's SI describes Bobby Knight's refusal {again} to be considered
for the Basketball Hall of Fame.   Dean Smith is quoted as saying roughly,
"Knight belongs in the Hall of Fame and should be dragged in kicking and
 screaming" and not given the option to refuse.

Good to see Dean recognize talent.   Dean's already in there.

    Dragging Knight in "kicking and screaming" *would* be fitting,
    now wouldn't it?  (Might even need a straight jacket.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    

Just as with the greats seats of wisdom, the HoF should have a

	Bobby Knight Chair of International Diplomacy

Scholarships and  awards could be given to develop basketball folklore in
the Caribbeans. Either that or a booth where fans visiting the HoF could
toss folding Chairs at full size standups of the Russian National Team.

TTom

    And don't forget a couch so visitors to the Knight wing could just
    "lay back and enjoy it" ...
    
    Bob Hunt

    Clemsuck stretched their perfect Chapel Hill record to 35 on Saturday,
    gettin shellacked by 23.
    
    Congrats!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

Couple of good games yesterday. Unfortunately, you had to have 2 TVs to
watch them. For some reason, both games were on 1.

Duke came from behind to beat Ga Tech at home, 88-86. Kenny Anderson had
the time to get another shot off but allowwed Hurley to tie him up,
possession to Duke. That was about his only mistake.

In overtime, Bryant Stith hit a shot with about 1 second left to beat
Wake. This was a 2 man game: Stith and Wake Forests Siler.

TTom

Over the weekend, the paper published College Hoop Power Ratings for
Conferences. 1-2-3 were:

ACC 
Big 10
Big East

It's evident to me that the sleaze and graft so prevalent in the ACK has even 
managed to subvert the once pristine poll takers. This is a dark day for
College Sports.

Mike JN

Any report from the media concerning the ACC is always skewed by the
power monger Tar Heels who own a large portion of that industry.

TTom

Plus I've heard that the Onan of SPORTS has major tie ins with the 
media....hmmm....can you say collusion?

    
    Bob! O Bob!,   Where you at?  Come out and play!   
    
    	Had to give you a little H*ll about the game... Tough game for the 
    Wahoo's.
    
    B.A._making_up_for_football_season!

    I'm here, B.A.
    
    Wahoos took a severe one on the chin versus the Wolfpack.   The
    only consolation for the Hoos is that we didn't sell no sneakers
    before the game.
    
    Life for a shooterless, lame duck coaching team ain't pretty.
    
    Bob Hunt

    GT returned UNC to their proper place last night-- out of the top 20.
    GT had all the guns and UNC looked bad, very bad.
    
    Chris
    

It's clear that the only way the Tar Heels can win is by shooting
extremely well, which they didn't do, last night. And this lack of
shooting coupled with what looks like an integral part of the Deano
Hoops System, slowness of foot, produced a team that can't come back,
much less win when it ain't shootin' good.

TTom

    So, T, now that UNLV and Utah State have had themselves a rather
    nasty little brawl, are you now going to start ranting and raving
    about how basketball is out of control in the western half of the
    country ???
    
    I mean, c'mon, T, where's your sense of objective fair play ???
    
    You might as well start pissin' them off out west, too, while
    you're at it ...
    
    Bob Hunt

Well, I saw the movie "Hoosiers", and there was an ugly little incident there, so,
painting with MrT's very wide brush for a moment, not only is ACC-style
basketball out of control, as is, as Bob points out, the entire West Coast, but
therefore so is America's heartland.

Good thing the Big East remains pristine.

Dan

Nah, Dan, they all have dirty hands.

From what I heard, Alonzo Mourning of Georgetown, spent a good part
of the game making Anti-Semitic slurs to Nadav Henefeld of UCONN,
trying to throw him off his game.

Maybe not pugilistic endeavors, but just as low, IMO....

Chainsaw

>From what I heard, Alonzo Mourning of Georgetown, spent a good part
>of the game making Anti-Semitic slurs to Nadav Henefeld of UCONN,
>trying to throw him off his game.

Really?  Keep me posted.

Dan

Yeah, seriously, although I don't have the story first hand.

A girl that works with us has some friends that are friendly with
the UConn players.  Evidently that was what was going on during
that game.

Peronally, if it's true, I think that's pretty low...  

I'll see if I can get some more details...


College sports...doncha love it?

Chainsaw

Well, MrT, at least your historical revisions still make me laugh.

BTW, I think it's shameful the way the NCAA gets after the Tark.
They obviously wasted some big bucks trying to hurt him in court,
and when that doesn't work they systematically suspend his players
for lousy unpaid phone calls!?  That's the NCAA's business?  I
would think Conrad Hilton might ask for the few dollars they owe calling
Mom or the main squeeze, but obviously (to me) there's some
vindictiveness out there.

From what I've read, the Tark has put in his time in sincere helping 
of his less privileged kids.  I don't know much about his violations,
but apparently the law doesn't hold him to blame.

Dan

>            but I believe in free speech and if you wanna speak out
>    on behalf of nut-case extremism, well, I ain't gonna complain.
    
     Me, too, T.  You go ahead and speak out any time you want !

    Actually, the unpaid phone calls are the NCAA's business.  On a road
    trip, the school is only allowed to provide rooms, transportation
    and meals.  Phone calls must be paid for by the player, otherwise,
    if the school pays the bill, it's illegal.
    
    I remember when I was in school the football players always wanted
    to use the football office's WATS lines to make phone calls and
    the coaches would never let them for this reason.  If a player did
    make a call and it showed up on the bill and the coaches could figure
    out who made the call, then the player was billed for it.
    
    I do feel, however, that the NCAA shouldn't be concerned with such
    mundane matters and should instead concentrate its efforts on the
    big scams going on in college athletics.
    
    John

    re .200 .201
    
    Keep me posted too. I know that Moruning has been the recipiant
    of a few ethinc slurs himself, but people either 1) didn't think
    it newsworthy (remember the sh-t Ewing got ?), or 2) he was crying
    wolf ....
    
    Doc

Yeah, it really bothers me.  I mean, I know that psyching your opponent
out may be a part of sports, but to go so low, is not, in my book,
very "sporting".

If I hear anything more, I'll let you know....

Chainsaw

       Add Mike Jarvis' name to the list in contention for the Virginia
    job. For those uninitiated, he's the coach at Boston U. and the
    former H.S. coach of Pat Ewing and Rumeal Robinson. The list is
    supposedly at about 30 now.
                                      Denny

    >I'm on the other side of that argument
    >myself, but I believe in free speech and if you wanna speak out
    >on behalf of nut-case extremism, well, I ain't gonna complain.
     
    You mean you're on the side of the argument that says that blacks
    shouldn't attend mostly-white colleges?  Sorry, I think they should,
    but at least you can count George Wallace c. 1960s as solidly in your
    corner.
    
    Or is it that you just really can't stand that Thompson has a
    competitive advantage?
    
    Dan

    110 is reopened.  
    
    Big one tomorrow night at Chapel Hill, with NC State comin' down the
    road.  Heels coming off poor performances against Tech and Miami (FL).
    
    Jimmy V attemts to end his Chapel Hill drought (0-fer-whatever). 
    Here's hoping the streak continues ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    >Stompshim is very different indeed.  He has a different universe
    >of talent and a different roster (i.e., segregated), he uses different 
    >things to motivate his players, and he's judged by a different standard.
    >He's an embarrassment to black America.                

Why don't you stop condescending and let black American's speak for 
black America.   So far their silence on your fantasies has been deafening.

Dan

�Why don't you stop condescending and let black American's speak for 
�black America.   So far their silence on your fantasies has been deafening.

Whooopp, Whhoooop, Whooop....

Mr. Worf, sound Red Alert.  Number One, prepare photon torpedoes for
that offending Romulon Apostrophe...

Number One, fire at will....make it so.

    >I think the way it works is that the aggrieved, not
    >the perpretrator, is the one who protests.

Okay fine.  Let's figure out who is aggrieved.  I'll look back at your
original statement;

    >He's an embarrassment to black America.                

Sounds to me as if, in your mind, "black America" is the aggrieved
party.

Again, I say, stop condescending.  They don't need some bitter
college basketball fan to tell them what they should be embarrassed
about.  They can decide for themselves, and apparently they are
in disagreement with you.

Dan

    Racial hatred stoked after 20 years rest ?
    
    T, I know you live in Minneheha and all, but if you believe that
    things have been cool for 2 decades, then you've flies as big as
    buzzards flying around you.
    
    Anyhow, you are in fantasy land ... draem on.
    
    Doc

                      No Flies on Docker Manyzeros (tm)

Mike JN

    .212�    Big one tomorrow night at Chapel Hill, with NC State comin' down the
    
    	Glad to see someone thinking about B-ball again in this conference!
    
    	I hope that the Pack can rebound from there loss at U.N.L.V.!
    
    	Should be a good win for Coach V.  after 0-for whatever,it will be
    nice.
    
    B.A.

       Hey Dan, you seemed to do a lot of 'speaking for others' in the
    past when you called the Celtics racist. Or is that ok?
                                   Denny

 >      Hey Dan, you seemed to do a lot of 'speaking for others' in the
 >   past when you called the Celtics racist. Or is that ok?
 
Hey Denny, you learning how to tell half-truths from MrT?  When I
discussed the Celtics, I  discussed the probability of them remaining
a mostly white team in a mostly black league, and the doubts I had
that it was just coincidence.

That's not the same as calling them "racist", nor is it "speaking for
others".

Get it straight next time.

Dan

       No Dan, you came right out and called them 'racist'.  And I'd
    say T has his doubts that G'town being an almost exclusively black
    team in a mostly white college is a coincidence.
                                     Denny

>       No Dan, you came right out and called them 'racist'

Denny, instead of accusing me of something I did not do, why don't
you try and prove it if you can?  Your memory is faulty.

> T has his doubts that G'town being an almost exclusively black
>    team in a mostly white college is a coincidence.

T has used called the bringing in of black players to a mostly white
college segregation, when actually, the word that more aptly, but not
perfectly, describes it is 'integration'.

T has also expressed doubts that teams in college basketball shouldn't 
be mostly black, even though that flies in the face of fact that many teams 
are mostly black, which is true in the NBA as well.

Denny, I can understand why you feel the need to defend MrT.  Afterall,
he does such a poor job of defending himself.  When he starts to totally
lose it, he brings in this political hogwash about how Thompson has the
tacit approval of the right wing, etc.  If any of his allegations were true, they'd
be part of not just Sports Section headlines, but probably editorial page
pieces in every major paper in the country.  Somehow, everyone keeps
missing this major story.

Dan

       Can someone point me to archived versions of Sports from 2 and
    3 years ago? Are they still available? 
       I believe your exact words were 'racist org.' if I get the pointer,
    I'll look it up.
       And Dan, can you tell us how many black coaches the Lakers have
    had? And why so many!
                                     Denny

       ...and the papers keep their hands off this 'story' because if
    they don't big Jawn will label them 'racist'. It's a no win situation.
                                         Denny

Guess Attorny Rev Dean Smif' was too busy wif the trial lately to
prepare for lasted nights game....

    True enough Frank.  ADA-T mighta cost us this one!
    
    Actually congrats should go to State which played a heckuva game.  Even
    if we'd played well (which we didn't) it would've been tough to win
    this one.  Jimmy V had the boys fired up.  Carolina was flat as a
    pancake and didn't shoot well.  State executed flawlessly the last nine
    minutes, rarely failing to score.
    
    Now for the good news.  Contrary to popular opinion, (and rumors
    presented by Mr.Simpson) the Eric Montross sweepstakes ain't over!!!!
    If you watched the game last night you'll know that Eric & dad payed
    their own way to Chapel Hill and were in attendance at the game!!!!
    I can only conclude that, at worst, Eric is wide open on his college
    choice, and not leaning to Michigan as was previously thought.  To add
    to our chances, Dickie pointed out Eric has some friends nearby (not
    sure if they're attending UNC or just live in Carolina)!!!
    
    In sum, we may have lost a battle, but won a war!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

       Yeah, I'll bet ol' Eric was pretty impressed with the rev's team
    last night too.
                               Denny

    Hopefully Eric was impressed with how much we *need* him.  Tough to get
    inside a young guys head and know what he's thinking about, but I found
    it interesting that he was being escorted by Warren Martin, ex-Tar Heel
    big man.  (And I mean *big*.)  Warren must be working for the
    university, perhaps in admissions or something.  
    
    Tough to tell whether our poor showing will have any impact on Eric's
    decision.  Last year George Lynch went to the Virginia vs. UNC game at
    Virginia.  (It was his official visit to Virginia.  He had it down to
    Carolina & UVa.)  We got royally blown out that night (the infamous
    night of "the speeding ticket"), but it apparently didn't phase Lynch.
    
    We shall see.  I will say this though.  If we land Montross it'll be
    our all-time best recruiting class.  And that's sayin' something!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    YES! YES! YES!

    	Finally! The PACK beat Rev.Smith in the Dumb Dome! Took Coach V. 
    almost six years to do it, but it feels good anyway! Also keeps the 
    Pack in the regular season race...Pack by 11! WOW! Chris, can you
    believe it?

    B.A.

    >   I believe your exact words were 'racist org.' if I get the pointer,
    >I'll look it up.
    >   And Dan, can you tell us how many black coaches the Lakers have
    >had? And why so many!
    
    Why don't you do the sensible thing and look it up before you make the
    ridiculous accusation?  You learn that from MrT or something?  And tell
    me, what difference does it make how many black coaches the Lakers have
    had?
    
    Denny, you are being preposterous.  What got you so defensive?
    
    Dan

    >   ...and the papers keep their hands off this 'story' because if
    >they don't big Jawn will label them 'racist'. It's a no win situation.
    
    
    It hasn't stopped the media before from reporting such stories, has it? 
    Why would it start with the relatively small issue of college sports
    when relatively larger issues have already been publicized?
    
    Dan

    Congrats to the Cavs for upsetting Duke.  Man was the last 2 minutes of
    this one ugly.  BobHunt, I don't know how you survived it (assuming you
    did).  Virginia missed a preposterous *FIVE* (5) front ends of 1 and
    1's, most of them by either Crotty or Stith.  Plus they missed a few
    other free throws coming on 2 shot opportunities.  Throw in a few
    additional turnovers by Virginia and you get the picture.
    
    Still though, a win's a win.  I'm pesonally dreading Carolina's trip to
    visit their northern neighbor.  First, there's the matter of the vendeta 
    the Virginia State Police have against Dean.  (My advise to my noted
    attorney is to hand the keys to somebody else for this trip.)  More
    importantly though is the fact that this will probably be Terry's last
    game against Dean, so you know he's gonna have the troops fired up to a
    fever pitch.  This is not a game I would expect the men in blue to win.
    Not with this years team anyway.
    
    - ACC Chris

    
    This one must have been ugly from starty to finish then as I attemped
    to watch the first half but quickly lost interest when their were
    more fouls than points score. 13 minutes left in the first half both
    teams were in the bonus and the score was 7 to 6 Virgina......
    
    only got worst. watched the NBA instead hard to believe that the 
    NBA was more enjoyable but last night it was....
    
    oh BTW Dock, the Rockets gaged. Chaney has to substitute for Akeem
    more especially against a physical player like Malone. Akeem had
    nothing left at the end....
    
    ole Moses made the game winner....
    
    mike

Down go the slow, plodding Tar Heels on the road. Bob Hunt can rejoice as
his Cavaliers withstood the Dean assault: the Heels mugged the Hoos; the
Hoos miss the front end of the 1-and-1; the Heels can't score.

Anyhoo, the final: 81-80.

TTom

Who are the seniors on the Tar Heels?   Williams and Madden?  Is 
Fox a junior or a senior?

Any way you look at it, the Heels are in BIG trouble for the next 
couple years.

    Wrong Ross.  We've had the #1 recruiting year in the country on
    everybody's list, and still have a decent shot at the best big guy in
    the country in Eric Montross.  
    
    Williams will be missed, but he's not irreplaceable.  Madden and
    Jeff Denny will be graduating and will be marginally missed.
    
    I'd look for a rough 1st half of next season for Carolina, kinda like
    this year.  But watch out in the 2nd half.  It's gonna be important for
    Dean not to overschedule us in the beginning of the year next year like
    he did this season.  
    
    Players coming in for UNC who could have an immediate impact:
    
    Derrick Phelps - PG for NYC.  Rated top point guard in USA.  
    Brian Reese - 6-6 from NY.  Awesome shooter.  Good athlete.  
    				Impact player.
    Cliff Rozzier - 6-10.  Could be the best of the bunch, though
    			   not rated as high as Phelps or Reese.
    			   From Florida - compared with Sam Perkins
    Pat Sullivan - 6-8 	   Another New Jersey kid, so we can count
    			   on Dan Schneider's continued allegance!
    			   Heady, improving.  
    
    Combine that with the return of Lynch, Chilcutt, Rice, Fox, Davis,
    Wenstrom (7 foot McDonald's All-American who hasn't played much
    this year) and Kenny Harris (explosive guard who hasn't picked up
    on the fact that you have to pass every once in a while) and I
    think UNC is looking extremely SOLID heading into the 90's.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    Nothing could be finer then beating Carolina ...
    
    Virginia 81, North Carolina 80
    
    Way to go, Hoos ...
    
    Bob Hunt

>    We've had the #1 recruiting year in the country on
>    everybody's list...
    
    Who's everybody?  From what I've read in the Charlotte Observer, which
    might as well be printed on light blue paper, UNC hasn't even had the
    best recruiting in the ACC.  The nod goes to Duke and GT in the ACC
    alone.
    
    	--dan'l

Yo Dan'l, watch out for opinions on matters that you are on record on as
saying do not interest you and concerning which you clearly have read
little but the local rag. UNC-Chapel Hill had no worse than a top 3
recruiting year, some say the best. And besides, the guy who wrote the
article also covers the NWA (with apologies to wrasslin fans).

HOWEVER, one need only look at Kevin Madden to see how talent often ends
up at Chapel Hill. When he came in, it was gaga this and gaga that and
now he's put in the same class as Jeff Denny. The point is that high
school talent does not always translate into college talent.

TTom

    Correct TTom.  Don't know who in their right mind woulda put Duke &
    Tech's recruiting year ahead of Carolina's.  Duke signed Grant Hill
    who's a studly type, but that's about it.  Tech has had a *horrid*
    early signing period.  Other than transfer Matt Geiger, they haven't
    got *anybody*!  Cremins is coddling a couple of studs for April though,
    so the complete verdict is still out.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

Recruiting is kinda like a pre-Primary Presidential election poll.

It looks okay on paper, but it ain't gonna get ya points.

So many times we've heard of phenoms that get recruited, and fail
to produce, kinda like the high school love stud that when presented
with his first real opportunity either comes up short, or shows
up a tad too "early".....

A point to ponder.....
    
    UNC's most successful years and only championship(tainted as it
    may be) came when Roy Williams was working the controls on the Dean
    Smif' puppet.
    
    Since he's been gone, Carolina's been reduced to a team that struggles
    against even mediocre talent.
    
    Cap

Yo Bob Hunt:

What's with the new Holland doo? Is he into the Pete Rose look?

TTom

    No idea, TTom, about the lame duck doo that Holland was a_sportin'
    last night.
    
    It looked semi-rad though, don'tcha think ???
    
    Bob Hunt

It's always been fun watching Holland. Last night was a classic. Sure he
goes up and down and all that, but at the end he walks off the court and
you can't even tell who won. The ACC will miss him.

BTW, does anyone know if Dean managed to get home last night without any
tickets? Perhaps T can investigate this in between episodes of THE TRIAL.

TTom

    Terry's "do" is the result of the Cavs win over Duke.  Matt Blundin
    made a bet with him prior to the game that, if Virginia sprung the
    upset, he'd get a haircut just like his.  UVa won and Terry made good
    on his promise!
    
    Congrats to Virginia for a nice win.  This appears to be typical year
    for Terry.  They start out slow and look feeble, yet put together a run
    and sneak into the tourney at the end of the year.  They should made
    the NCAA's again, and will be a pushover for no one.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    Football,this early?

    Chris,
    	You'll be glad to know that the Heels got the TWO most recruited
    players in N.C. Both are from Richmond Co. Man,are they good!

    6-3 200 lbs. quarterback  Mike Thomas...
    6-6 215 lbs. Tight-end   Oscar Sturgis...

    MAYBE they'll win one next year!

    B.A.

    YEEE HAAAH!
    
    Thanks for the pick-me-up, B.A.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

>Yo Dan'l, watch out for opinions on matters that you are on record on as
>saying do not interest you and concerning which you clearly have read
>little but the local rag. 
    
    Disgust of the ACC TV coverage has little to do with knowledge about
    it.  I'm a sports fan through and through.  I read every word of
    the sports page every evening (yes, even NASCAR and NWA).  So just
    because I hates it don't mean I know nothin' about it.  
    
    But, TTom, I guess I shoulda realized what I was doin'; relying on the
    Observer's opinions could get me 45 years cleaning toilets.  Just ask
    Jim Bakker.  See ya at Tripps some night!
    
    	--dan'l
    
    

    I'm curious about this article Dan'l and don't mean to put you down. 
    I follow high school hoops recruiting more closely than most, perhaps,
    and am curious about who wrote the article that had Duke & Tech's
    recruiting ahead of Carolina's.
    
    Whoever it is can only be summed up as incompetant, assuming this is
    indeed what he said.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    Don't remember exactly who, but it appeared in an analysis about two or
    three weeks ago.  Could have been one of three writers:
    
    	- Tom Sorensen
    	- Ron Greene
    	- Charles Chandler
    
    Most likely it was Sorensen because he's a columnist that covers this
    kind of stuff the most.  Ron Greene talks a lot of BS about golfing and
    other stuff in his column, and Chandler just reports the games.  
    
    I must admit that I lied in my previous reply.  I realize I don't read
    every word.  I usually skip by-lines.  Sorry.
    
    	--dan'l

re: .251 and the very busy MrT (you know, 110. and all)

You mean like in 84 when the Hoos beat the Hoosier to get to the final 4?

But that ain't even the point. No one has ever done much with Ralph.
Terry got to the final 4 with him and without him. 

As to the underachievers in the ACC, let's not forget the Coach to Be of
the 92 Olympics, Coach K. Who knows, with a little luck he may be able to
match the accomplishments of the 88 team, led by another of MrT's
favorites, Big John.

Oh yean, congratulations, MrT, on the prompt and orderly way that the
improper actions of Michigan's baseball coach (former) was dealt with.
That felony indictment for embezzlement, I'm sure, represents exactly the
call to action that you have been making in your campaign in this area.
I'm sure you contributions to this fast, legal response are manifest.

Yeah, Dan, let's tip a couple of cows sometime...

TTom

meanwhile back to Basketball...

State came up with a big second half effort and a big win, last night, at
home against the Blue Devils, 76-71. Rodney Monroe hit 4 free throws in
the last 20 seconds or so as Duke threw the ball away or put of poor
shots and had to foul. Monroe finished with 22 points - 19 in the second
half - and 11 rebounds.

TTom

    .259�                             -< State beats Duke >-
    
    	So how do the standings look? Duke tied with Clemson? With the
    tiggers come BIG three games this week, N.C.,Duke, and Tech. They
    should lose all three. Could make the standings interesting.
    
    B.A.

ACC standings:

	Duke		9  3
	Clemson		8  3
	Ga Tech		7  4
	State		6  5
	No Carolina	6  5
	Virginia	4  6
	Maryland	4  7
	Wake		0 11

Tonight:
	Virginia at Ga Tech
	Maryland-Baltimore County at Maryland

TTom

Virginia 73, Ga Tech 71.

Bryant Stith hit a jump shot in the lane at the buzzer. The 'hoos got the
ball out with 1 second to go and Dennis Scott went to sleep on Stith who
was standing unguarded in the lane. Stith jumped, caught the inbound pass
and hit the jumper as time ran out.

Maryland won against non-conference Maryland-Baltimore County, 113-61.

Updated standings:

	Duke		9  3
	Clemson		8  3
	Ga Tech		7  5
	State		6  5
	No Carolina	6  5
	Virginia	5  6
	Maryland	4  7
	Wake		0 11

TTom

    Yup TTom, great win for the Cavs last night.  Georgia Tech is content
    to live or die with the jump shot and most of the time things have
    worked out pretty well this year.  But Dennis Scott had a horrid
    shooting night last night, which means whoever they're facing will stay
    right in the ballgame.  I just hope and pray he has a repeat
    performance next Wednesday in Chapel Hill.
    
    Announcer last night said something like "Kenny Anderson just might 
    be the best freshman in the country."  MIGHT?  IMHO there's nobody 
    even close.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

>                  -< UVa will make the NCAA's.  No question. >-

Last night should take them off the bubble.

Kenny Anderson certainly has the ACC ROY locked. He's got a good chance
of making All-ACC. This is a very important time for the Jackets.
Traditionally, during Cremins tenure, the team tends to get tired late in
the season. They play all year with 6 or 7 players and Anderson, Oliver
and, especially, Scott play ALL the time. One of the symptoms of this is
a drop in FG% for a shooting team.

But, if they're rested, the Tar Heels had better watch out. They have no
defense for the Tech Top Trio (tm). The Heels had better take in inside
all night and not take too long to do it.

TTom

    
    I think Johnny Jackson of Ohio State should be consider every bit as
    much as Kenny Anderson for top freshman honors. Anderson's probably
    a shoo-in though due to all the hype.....
    
    mike

    This is one case mike where hype = reality.  Kid has just had an
    exceptional year and the stats prove it.
    
    Besides, if you can't get a guys name right (Johnny (?) Jackson) he
    can't be *that* good!  ;^)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    
    Didn't say he wasn't a ballplayer just said he get more consideration
    than Jackson.....
    
    mike

    After "reading" the article about the girls of the ACC in the latest
    Playboy I received yesterday, I'm convinced that when I die and get
    reincarnated, I want to come back as an ACC college student (male, of
    course)!  
    
    Holy Birthday Suits, Batman!
    
    Woob bwoob bwoob bwoob bwoob!  [making Curley sounds]
    
    :-)
    
    Hawk

    
    Hawk,  the NC State cheerleaders are worth the price of addmission
    alone. I had the pleasure of catching their act live last year. I
    can only hope that the NCAA board sends the Wolfpack to Hartford
    this year....
    
    mike

>    Hawk,  the NC State cheerleaders are worth the price of addmission
>    alone. I had the pleasure of catching their act live last year. I
>    can only hope that the NCAA board sends the Wolfpack to Hartford
>    this year....
    
    Speaking of cheerleaders, I understand that the UNLV Cheerleaders,
appearing at the regionals in Denver last year, had people heading back to
their seats during intermission, with a show that was "stunning"
Jim M

    As Far as top freshman in the country go I think Nadev Henefield
    has as much a claim as Anderson.  Having watched a few of each teams
    games I'd give the edge to Henefield as I think he is far more
    polished.  Anderson on the other hand has unlimited talent, he can look
    unbelievable one minute and silly the next.  Henefield recently has
    gotten some national exposure also with ESPN doing a story on him, and
    if UCONN goes to the final four 8*) you just never know.  I don't
    think Georgia Tech will do anything in the tourney, they rely too much
    on too few.
    
    Jimbo

    IMHO
    
    NoWay is Henefield as good as Anderson. I have seen him make many
    unbelievable plays, but I can't agree that he looks silly half the
    time. Against ND on Saturday, he personally brought Tech back from a 14
    pt deficit by scoring the next 10 pts in the game and then getting 3-4
    assists in a row. The closest thing I've seen to silly is the look on
    his teammates faces when an unexpected pass hits them in the chest.
    At 19 he is one of the three best guards that I've ever seen play
    college hoops(with Magic and Isiah).
    
    Chris
    

    re .271
    
    Also- Tech has lost their 5 games by a total of 12 points. They could
    very easily be 22-3 or 23-2. They have one of the toughest schedules in
    the country. I don't think they will win it all, but I think they will
    do very well in the tournament. Final Eight or maybe Final Four.

Wolfpackgate (tm) Update:

o Charles Shackleford has supposedly admitted to taking $65K from an
agent, or at least someone posing as an agent, during his stay at NC
State. Typically, the NCAA goes legal in this situatioin, filing civil
and/or criminal charges to the parties involved, not the institution.
Unlike shoes and tickets, illegal payments were never the property of the
school. However, already being on probation, State will get special
scrutiny in this matter.

o The NC State Bureau of Investigation (SBI) confirmed that it was
making an investigation into State. The SBI would only say that it was
not related to either the issues that led to State's probation or the
newly disclosed allegations concerning Shack on the Take (tm).

TTom

    The Terry Holland Farewell Tour is rounding into shape quite
    nicely, thank you ...

    The Wahoos are now 17-8 overall and 6-6 in conference with recent
    wins over Ga Tech and State.  The usual Holland trademarks are
    showing up.  Rebounding and defense.  Rebounding and defense.

    Holland's final home game is this Wednesday against Wake and the
    Hoos wrap up the regular season next Saturday against Maryland. 
    If they should take them both, they'll be 19-8 and 8-6 in
    conference and *should*, in my opinion, get a ticket to the dance.

    Well done, boys.

    Bob Hunt
    

    
    Point shaving at NC State!  Valvano not to blame!
    
    glenn
    

    CLEMSON REFS SHOW UP AT CAROLINA - GIVE WIN TO HEELS!!!!!!
    
    NAZZ

       The MAFIA is to BLAM!!
                                      Denny

    
    re: .276
    
    Know wons the BLAM!

    Jimmy V is on *very* thin ice.
    
    How in the world could one of his players suddenly come into
    $60,000 and Jimmy V not know it ???   He ought to know if one of
    his players has a new suit, let alone a new money market fund.
    
    Also, how could he watch hour after hour of game films and not
    suspect some questionable plays by his alleged point-shavers ???
    
    It's gotten to the point that it's hard to sympathize with a coach
    who claims ignorance.  Makes you want to kick him in the pants to
    wake him up.
    
    Bob Hunt

No contest on the comments about Jimmy V, Bob.

Howere, in terms of playing, the one thing that Shack was consitent at
was being inconsistent. One of the games being questioned was a Wake
Forest game that state won but did not cover. While I don't have complete
records of that series, I do remember many games with this exact
outcome. Anyone remember last year's multiple overtime, the last game of
the season? 

Now this doesn't mean that I'm saying that it isn't another case of Shack
on the take (tm), just that it would mean more if they suggested another
game/series.

ON the issue of Jim not knowing, this may be the last straw. After last
night's interview, I wouldn't be surprised to see Jimmy leave and, who
knows, maybe end up with the Hornets.

TTom

    Not defending Valvano, but one possible reason why he didn't have a
    clue about the player's $60k is that maybe the kid was smart enough to
    put the money in hiding for a while instead of buying the brand new
    suit and the BMW.........  No?
    
    Hawk

    On Jimmy V.
    	I DO beleive that he knew of the money! He just told Shack to keep
    quite about it...Yes! this is/was the last straw for the coach. We'll
    be in search of a new one after the tournament next weekend...Humm..Do
    you think we could get Terry Holland??? Bob, you would love that! :*)
    
    Still a PACK fan, through thick and Valvano!
    
    B.A.

    .284�    Arthur Ashe put it succintly two nights ago: Academic standards
    .284�    need to be raised not lowered, and the "journalists" supposedly
    
    	I agree! But when the NCAA does that, you get coaches walking off
    the court in protest(J.T.). I say, if you can't make the grade(B) get
    off the floor...goes back to that other mess you guys were talking
    about!
    
    B.A.

    I don't think Coach Valvano knew about the point shaving at all,last
    nite I watched the Syracuse-Seton Hall game and it made me real
    suspicious about Coleman and Thompson,please understand that I 
    started thinking this after I heard about State,but those two guys
    missed so many gimmes and free throws that I relly thought it was
    a bag job,especially when syracuse wins it at the buzzer.I don't
    think the coach is always involved when it comes to point fixing
    because if your a key player and your involved nobody has to know
    because your gonna have the ball 75% of the time and you can do
    whatever the "boys" want you to do.
    
    Tom
    

>    Not defending Valvano, but one possible reason why he didn't have a
>    clue about the player's $60k is that maybe the kid was smart enough to
>    put the money in hiding for a while instead of buying the brand new
>    suit and the BMW.........  No?
    
    Hah hah hah!!!  Good one Hawk!  (Apologies if you weren't jokin'.)
    
    Having watched Shack at State, having observed the caliber of Jimmy's
    typical patrons, and having read Personal Fouls, I doubt seriously
    Charley was "smart enough" to do almost anything.
    
    Whether or not Valvano *knew* about the shaving or not is obviously an
    important point (I don't think he did, though perhaps was suspicious
    and didn't exactly do an ADA-T investigative job) he's ultimately
    responsible.  He's recruited kids who simply don't belong in college. 
    Washburn and Shack are two prime-time examples.  It's starting to get
    hard to work up sympathy for Jimmy V.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    .287�    typical patrons, and having read Personal Fouls, I doubt seriously
    .287�    Charley was "smart enough" to do almost anything.
    
    .287�    Washburn and Shack are two prime-time examples.  It's starting to get
    .287�    hard to work up sympathy for Jimmy V.
    
    .287�          <<< Note 25.287 by RHETT::KNORR "Innocent Contest Judge" >>>
    
    	Who are *YOU* to judge? :*)
    
    B.A.

    Since we are on the subject.  
    
    Jose Canseco makes MILLIONS himself and makes MILLIONS for the Athletic
    organization.
    
    Joe Montana makes MILLIONS himself and makes MILLIONS for the 49er
    organization                                              
    
    Michael Jordan ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto .
    
    
    Athletes make MILLIONS and MILLIONS for Colleges.  Why not give
    them a stipend or something.  I just learned what it means for 
    a school lets say the difference between a NIT invite and a NCAA
    invite not to mention how far a team goes in the NCAA, major major
    bucks.  
    

    
    To help Hawk out cause friends be like that, V could have been
    unkowning of the cash not because Shack was smart enough but the
    people behind him were. Obviously if you have a golden banana like
    Shack on your rope you'd tell him to keep it as quiet as possible
    so you could use him over ond over agian.
    
    Jimmy V has to go. the guy is a great coach but it's obvious he has
    no scrupels in winning at all costs. He should be away from the college
    game and into the pros where he belongs. I think the problem is the
    pros would be a paycut for him....
    
    mike
    

re .289:

	I've got to disagree.

	Sports is a very small segment of our society.  We all know
	the percentages of individuals who ultimately make the
	big leagues.

	Adding a stipend (or basically a salary) for kids playing
	college sports will only lessen their already low motivation
	to study.

	Unfortunately, because these coaches want to win, for various
	reasons ranging from prestige to greed, people are not getting
	an education.

	I realize I'm generalizing a lot, and I apologize for getting
	on my soapbox, but I've been doing a lot of thinking lately
	about the quality of the product turned out by high schools
	and colleges in the US, compared to others in the world.

	We have got to do something to raise the educational level
	of American students (all of them).  Because basically,
	I'd rather have a few physicists and scientists and engineers
	that can put the Japanese out of business, rather than 
	a few more guys to argue over in the NBA...

	Sorry for the soapbox...

Chainsaw

    I've said before, and I'll say again:
    
    Colleges are being asked to do remedial work that should have been
    done before students get to college.  Too many unqualified people,
    not just athletes, are being admitted to colleges.  Educational
    improvement has to start before college.
    
    Too much raising of academic standards (not just for athletes, but
    for everyone) will mean many, many empty college classrooms.
    
    John

I agree John.  I didn't mean to imply that it's only at the
college level. There are individuals in this country who
can't read well, or put an intelligent sentence together, let
alone master enough arithmetic to balance a checkbook.

There has to be a good foundation, and that mean elementary
and middle schools.

I'm in favor of athletics to round an individual (just as I'm 
in favor of music and art in schools) but let's get them grounded
in the basics too....

'Saw

    
    Leave Sooner hoops out of it, T, unless you can prove some kind of
    misconduct in the program.  Granted, OU academic standards for 
    athletes have never been that high, but taking pot-shots at JUCO's 
    just shows prejudice against anyone who has had to work their way up 
    from the bottom.
    
    > One last loaf (sorry to be on my soapbox again, but lately 25 seems
    > to be the appropriate note to discuss these things): For all the
    > jive-bull about how the "scholar-athlete" is being exploited, think
    > about the fack that if these supposedly invaluable commodities were
    > playing minor league football or baseball with no college affiliation
    > (e.g., The Durham Devils or the Baton Rouge Bengals) how much TV
    > and gate money would be there?  Table scraps.  How much exposure
    > would be given to the star 21 year old to enhance his value to bidding
    > NBA or NFL franchises?  Dog food.
    
    Very true, the college holds a lot of the appeal.  On the other hand,
    if these "scholar-athletes" disappeared, what would happen to the
    national popularity of the college game, seeing as how many of the
    future professionals would be elsewhere?  If your theory holds true,
    why would anyone tune in to watch a semi-pro team from a nondescript
    university like UNLV?
    
    glenn

    

    Chainsaw, sounds like you've recently read the Lee Iacoca speech to
    magazine publishers that's been passed around the Enet lately.  The man
    can sure tell it like it is in regards to the Japanese and especially,
    American (lack of) education.  It's excellent reading material and very
    thought provocative........
    
    I'd be glad to forward it to anyone who's interested.  Just send me
    mail.
    
    Hawk.
    
    P.S.  Thanks for trying to bail me out, Mikey!  Actually, ACChris, I
          was semi-serious when I wrote that maybe Valvano had no clue.
          You laugh at me again, and I'll whack your peepee!  :-)

    No argument from me on this one T.  This has been Dean's operating
    procedures for years.  He goes with academically solid kids for the
    most part, but mixes in a couple of question marks.  Kevin Madden is a
    prime example.  Had to skip his sophomore year to get his academics up
    (eligible by NCAA standards, not by Dean's) but will graduate as far as
    I know.
    
    Overall a truly horrid year for the ACC.  The NC State and Maryland
    stuff is inexcusable, to put things mildly.  How does the league 
    respond?  By letting both play in the ACC Tournament, of course. 
    What's it say when your league has *lower* standards than the NCAA??
    
    The only positive face to put on this thing is that it appears the
    trouble spots are easy to identify.  Namely, MARYLAND, NC STATE, and
    CLEMSON.  Unfortunately that represents 3/8 of the league!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    
    But the ACC has some very fine babes, as seen in the new P'boy layout,
    The Girls of the ACC.
    

    On a positive note Carolina put a solid shellacking on the Duke Nerds. 
    Part of the credit should go to their geeky fans, who yelled "NIT!",
    "NIT!" at the Heels prior to tip-off, no doubt getting the boys in
    baby blue plenty fired up.  King Rice again outplayed Bobby Hurley,
    though Hurley had quite a good game himself.  Coach K deserves some
    credit as well.  Scott Williams & Rick Fox both picked up their 4th
    foul early in the 2nd half.  Dean pretended not to notice, playing both
    practially the rest of the way.  Neither one fouled out.  Duke 
    should've gone after Williams for sure, but inexplicably started
    playing passive inside.
    
    ACC Tournament matches:
    
    Clemson vs. Wake Forest
    
    Watch for the upset here.  Wake is playing exceptionally well right
    now (finally).
    
    Carolina vs. Virginia
    
    The Cavs appeared in prime shape to make it to the NCAA's.  Now they
    need a good showing in the tourney.  Beating UNC will be no easy
    trick, especially in Charlotte where we historically play well.
    
    Duke vs. Maryland
    
    Maryland is capable.  Question is how will they respond now that they
    know they've got no chance to go to the NCAA's?  They'll either be a
    team on a mission or a team ready to get blown out.
    
    NC State vs. Georgia Tech
    
    Possibly the last game for Valvano.  Tech has beaten them twice,
    FWIW.  I'd watch for payback for State and Valvano's execution to
    be stayed.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

some points:

o Jim V should leave NC State. It doesn't matter for this issue if he
knew of didn't know about the Shack on the Take (tm) and the supposed
point shaving.

o The evidence for the point shaving consists entirely of one disguised
face/voice of one former player. All others associated, implicated, etc.,
have denied any and all knowledge of this. On Sunday, ESPN, the reporter
for ABC who broke the story and interviewed the player said that the
basis for his story is that he "believed" this one source. No other
confirmation has come forth.

o State and Maryland play in the ACC because it is not a post season
event. It is the way that this league determines the championship of the
league.

TTom

    
    Listening to Jimmy yesterday I knew what his next career move should
    be:
    
    
    	Politics...
    
    mike

    > State & Maryland play in the ACC tournament because this is how the
    > league picks its champion ...
    
    Why is it the NCAA can take a stand and say no school on probation is
    eligible to win the National Championship, yet the ACC feels a school
    on probation can win *its* Championship???
    
    There's no difference, IMO.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris

I have no problem if the league takes this stand. Similarly, the league
can go ahead and cancel the rest of the season for the guilty team(s). If
they say to State, you are not going to be in the tournament, so be it.

My point was that the ACC tournament is not a post season event, as it is
with most conferences.

TTom

    
    What is it Chris do figure if you cut out some of the competitors
    UNC might win the thing?  I can see why you'd be scared of the Terps..
    I mean one year in the league and Williams has shown he can coach rings
    around ole Deano....:^)
    
    Got to call my brother tonight to wish him happy birthday and to show
    there are no hard feelings I'll ask him again for ya....are you willing
    to pay scalper prices?
    
    mike

    Maryland put on probation.

    .307�                -< Let's hope NC Skate gets the Death Penalty >-
    
    	Let's hope NOT!...
    
    B.A.

    �            -< Let's hope NC Skate gets the Death Penalty >-
    
    Right alongside Illinois from that oh-so-squeaky clean Big Ten,
    right, T ???
    
    Bob Hunt

    > Any riots out your way
    
    I was waiting for this to come up again.  Dean was asked the
    question about fighting in the ACC recently.  He said (and I
    can't disagree) that the last bench clearing brawl in the ACC
    was in the mid-1960's!  He attributed it to the excellent
    officiating we've had in the conference over the years.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    Tom,
    
   � Well, so far the only thing on the Illini are some disputed 
   � allegations from a hated rival.  Nothing like fixing games or
   � the like.  Don't see the analogy, Bob.
    
    You can't see the analogy because you refuse to open your eyes.
    
    The only thing on NC State in the point-shaving turmoil is the
    ABC-TV "hidden testimony" of one anonymous former player who
    claimed Shackleford and others shaved points in return for cash.   
    This person may indeed be telling the truth but so far it's pure
    allegation and nothing else.  So. before you start calling for the
    death penalty, please make sure the program is convicted.
    
    And, now before you start twisting *my* words all around, let me
    state it for you as clearly as I can ...
    
    *IF* the North Carolina State University's intercollegiate
    basketball program or any of its current or former basketball
    players is found conclusively to have participated, condoned, or
    supported any of these alleged illegal acts, then I fully support
    whatever sanctions, penalties, or sentences that are inflicted
    upon the program or upon any guilty individuals.
    
    Is that clear enough for you ???  If not, too bad.
     
   � Wrist slaps on pukebucket behavior only begets bigger buckets of
   � puke, and the buckets are slopping over in the Almost Close Conference
   � right now (which explains why you're so chippy, Bob) and the wrists
   � there are mighty limp too.
    
    Excuse me, Tom, but if you're going to judge the *ENTIRE* apple
    barrel based on the the three rotten apples in it, then I have no
    choice but to discount your short-sighted views.    NC State,
    Clemson, and Maryland have either been convicted or are currently
    under investigation.   Duke, North Carolina, Wake Forest, Georgia
    Tech, and Virginia are not.    I'm not happy about the three
    renegade schools but I am happy about the five clean programs. 
    Okay ???
    
    I also respect the president of Maryland who admitted their
    violations but protested the harsh treatment.    The Terps' most
    serious violations were advancing a player about $200 for a trip
    home, giving another player car rides to class, and giving free
    clothing away to some recruits like Alonzo Mourning.    Hardly
    *major* violations in my book.   Violations, yes, they were.  
    Major ones, no, I think not.
    
   � Any riots out your way lately Bob?  Say, mebbe you cain sign those
   � scholar-athletes from Runnin' Rabble U. to come on out and join
   � the fun next year!
    
    No, Tom, no riots out here.   There was a brawl between two
    smaller non-ACC schools (NC A&T vs NC Central) earlier this year. 
    What that has to do with the ACC only you can figure out.
                        
    I concede, Tom.  I no longer have the will or the desire to engage
    you in this forum.  If everything you say is truth, justice, and
    the American way and everyone who disputes you is a lying,
    misguided, masturbating, puke bucket with open sores, then I guess
    I'll just have to be content here in my own little private Idaho.
    
    The weather down here in Charlotte is absolutely lovely.  65
    degrees today.  I've got an interesting new job assignment.  I
    love my sports teams.   My wife and our three gorgeous daughters
    are doing fine.   And I don't need you or your childish behavior.
    
    This is our last communique, Tom.   I've enjoyed the discourse but
    it has run its course.   Good luck.
    
    Bob Hunt

    Hey Bob and Tom  (re:.312),  you guys are missing out on the BIG
    picture.  You are bickering about the ACC and BIG-10 while the real
    action and superior basketball is being played in the BIG-8.
    
    As North Carolina, NC State, and Maryland are floundering along
    with Indiana;  Kansas has won a preseason tourney, Missouri has
    been demolishing lesser foes (except the fluke at Notre Dame), 
    and Oklahoma has been destroying opponents with 110+ point 
    average scores.  
    
    Wake up! the ACC and BIG-10 are not worth fighting over.
    
    JHawk
    

    Yea, but take away the big 3 of Missouri, Oklahoma, and Kansas and
    you've got a combined winning pct. of 44.9.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    > Yea, but take away the big 3 of Missouri, Oklahoma, and Kansas and
    > you've got a combined winning pct. of 44.9.  
    
    That may be true but the other 5 BIG-8 teams have to play each of
    these 3 teams (all of which have been #1 atleast once) 2 times.
    That's an automatic 6 losses on their schedule for most of them.
    Add 2-3 more highly ranked teams on their schedules and the other
    5 teams' will definitely have a low winning pct.  Kansas State
    has 2 upsets against the big 3 and Oklahoma State, Iowa State and
    Nebraska have played them good games at times.
    
    It's rough playing in the "best" sports conference!!  ;^)
    
    Cowboy
    

   � *Look* at you, on your way out posing me as somehow standing
   � against fulfilling work, pleasant weather, and wholesome family
   � life.
        
   � Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out, Bob.
    
    Sorry to disappoint you but I'm not leaving the conference, T.   
    If you would just for once go back and read a note the way it was
    written, you would discover that I have nothing further to discuss
    with *YOU*.   You're not worth the effort.
    
    Try and have fun with your life, T.   I feel sorry for you.
    
    Bob Hunt

    > That's an automatic 6 losses on their schedule for most of them.
    
    Put another way Cowboy, it's practially an automatic 10 WINS for the
    Top 3, no?  If the conference had better balance perhaps the Top 3
    wouldn't be ranked quite so high in the polls.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Hey ACC Chris, we just proved once again that ANYTHING can be
    shown to be correct by using stats!!
    
    Once the NCAA Tournament starts the REAL bragging/crying will
    begin!
    
    Cowboy

    True enough Cattleman.  True enough!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

> re: Big8
    
    > When there's no clearly dominant team on the national level, the
    > top rankings become an almost random matter.  Teams who've lost
    > the least recently tend to cycle up to replace the ones who did
    > lose.  
    
    Not if there are 3 teams in the same conference (BIG-8) that have
    shown dominance.
    
    >        In the case of the Big8 this year, they happened to be on
    > the up cycle when the pre-conference season ended.  
    
    An unranked Kansas team won the pre-season NCAA tournament and became
    #1 in about 2 weeks.  Missouri, if I remember correctly, didn't lose
    until they started playing conference games.  Oklahoma did get beat
    by Arizona early in the season but improved continually.
    
    > From there they've
    > enjoyed the benefit of playing in a weak league where the three
    > good teams weren't penalized for losing to one another; and the
    > teams from the better leagues (Big10, Big E, ACC), were penalized
    > for the inevitable losses not only to other top conference teams
    > but the middle and lower ranks too.  
    
    It's odd that the non-conference wins have been ignored here.  After
    you remove the 6 losses from the records that the "big-3" have received
    from playing each other how many other losses do you end up with?  
    Other than the 2 losses to KSU the other 3 losses are to non-conf
    teams.  If the "big-3" are so over-rated then how come there are only
    3 total non-conf losses?
    
    Cowboy
    

    
    Don't waste your time, Cowboy.  T's currently at war on all fronts
    right now:  ACC Knorr/The Trial, Valvano, Schneider/Bob Knight, 
    Loyola Marymount, Big Eight, Bob Hunt, etc, etc, etc.  He's spreading 
    himself too thin to maintain a really good argument at any quality 
    level.  I suspect he'll be spontaneously bursting into flames any
    minute now...
    
    glenn
    

    Hey Chris,
    	Have you heard about the crimes at Syracrap? Seems like the ACC
    isn't the only league with problems...That Bohemian coach is already
    starting to cry FOUL!

    B.A.

    Actually Cattleman, I thought we'd come to an intelligent "Agree to 
    Disagree" conclusion to the debate.  Just ignore MrT, unless of course
    you enjoy things like pounding your head against the wall.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

  >   level.  I suspect he'll be spontaneously bursting into flames any
  >   minute now...
  
    Cowboy
    

no,no,no...

Ralph Caso is the one that burst spontaneously into flames.

I think T's head is just going to explode one of these days. Either that or
he and Dan will meet face to face some time and the resulting verbiage will
result in the end of civilization as we know it. Ozone will erode, buildings
will topple under the onslaught and the enevitable explosion as the swelling
of these two enormous ego's becomes too large for the planet to handle will rip
the fabric of time into shreds. 


:-)


 Metz

       Anyone see the Sat. Night Live repeat last week?
                                              Denny

    From .324 (Glenn Waugaman) ...
    
   � Don't waste your time, Cowboy.  T's currently at war on all fronts
   � right now:  ACC Knorr/The Trial, Valvano, Schneider/Bob Knight, 
   � Loyola Marymount, Big Eight, Bob Hunt, etc, etc, etc.  He's spreading 
   � himself too thin to maintain a really good argument at any quality 
   � level.  I suspect he'll be spontaneously bursting into flames any
   � minute now...
    
    T and I are not "at war".   I've got nothing constructive to say
    to him so I'm just applying the good old-fashioned Golden Rule. 
    I'll live longer, breathe easier, and smile a lot more without
    worrying about holding up my end of an absolutely futile noting
    relationship with someone who's about as important to me as
    roadkill.
    
    It's a beautiful day in this neighborhood ...
    
    Bob Hunt

    > Maybe I should do like Bob Hunt and start attacking people and 
    > then you guys wouldn't make fun a me.
                                      ^
    > MrT                             |______________
                                                    |
    > ps. Hey Metz, you misspelled "egos"           |
                                                    |
                                                    |
                                                    |
                                                    |
                           Hey T, ain't pok'n n funnin' bu sumpn don
                           loo rite.
    
    
    Hop'n thisn heps
    
    Cowboy
    

�                           Hey T, ain't pok'n n funnin' bu sumpn don
�                           loo rite.
�    
�    
�    Hop'n thisn heps
   
Ralph?  Ralph?  Is that U?  R U back Ralph????      

Early lines on ACC games. Don't be the last to get in on the point
shaving...(smiley, stirring, etc.)

	noon	Clemson		7	Wake Forest
	2	No Carolina	2	Virginia
	7	Duke		5	Maryland
	9	Ga Tech		2	NC State

TTom

    Predictions?  Sure, why not.
    
    Wake in an upset over Clemson
    
    Carolina in a nail-biter over UVa
    
    Duke easy over Maryland
    
    Tech by 10 over State.
    
    
    You heard it here first,
    
    
    - ACC Chris

One good jester disserves another:

	Clemson BIG, Ralph Kittley doesn't shave.
	No Carolina pulls out a stinker. Knorr buys film rights.
	Maryland in the day's upset. Coach K's crying heard in Gaffney.
	Ga Tech in OT. Valvano thinks he sees Mr T, moons the crowds.

TTom

    I like the second list of predictions better.....with the only change
    being a Georgia Tech win in regulation by about 7 points.
    
    Clemson will cover...and Maryland will win one at the wire.
    
    Nelly

    > Valvano thinks he sees MrT, moons the crowd
    
    Hah hah hah!!!!  Good one TTom!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    This just in...
    
    FYI #1 Roy Williams was just announced BIG 8 "Cach of te Year"
    
    Even if the Jhawks get derailed in the tourney, and the hawks 
    are a shoe in FINAL 8 and a scrappy FINAL 4, look for him to 
    win NCAA "Coach of the Year" honors as well.  I must say ACC fans -
    Roy learned from a pro.
    
    FYI #2 Larry Brown (present Spurs coach) rumored to be wanting out
           of the PROS again, and wanting to get back to college ranks.
           Any validity to this rumor?
    
    Larry has always been one of those guys you hate to love and love to
    hate...but, to me I've always thought he was a TRUE motivator of men.
    YOUNG MEN that is.  I think it takes something different to tell 
    adults who make more money than you what to do and how hard to work.
    
    Trivia:
    
    Boy, Dandy Dean has spawned some coaching talent over the years:
    Larry Brown, Eddie Fogler, and Roy Williams.  Are there any other
    Dean clones out there that I dont know about?  
    
    Prediction:  Two teams from the BIG 8, 1 ACC, 1 BIG LEAST 
                 in the FINAL 4.  
                 
    		 You pick em.
          
    
    Kansas Comet
    
    
    
    

    
    The rumor around here is Brown taking over the Colorado job.

Virginia and UNC have just gone into overtime... Dean Smith pulled
some of his typical Carolina magic at the end of regulation to pull
out the tie.   Stith hit two free throws to put Virginia up by 4 with
45 seconds to play.  Carolina came down and Scott Williams hit a short
hook... UNC calls timeout with 35 seconds left.   On the inbound
play, Virginia tossed it in to Stith.  Fox came up and was completely
in Stith's face.  Stith turned his shoulder slightly, Fox flopped
down on the ground {this all takes place right in front of Dean and
the UNC bench} and the call is offensive foul on Stith!!!!  Carolina
misses a shot but ties up the rebound and gets possession.  Williams
puts back a King Rice miss with 6 seconds left and then Virginia 
misses a last second shot {the shooter was fouled big-time by 
Williams but no call}.

One minute left in OT and Virginia leads 88-85...

    
    First round winners---first two games...
    
    Clemson over W.Forest
    U.Va over U.N.C in O/T  92-85... 
    
    B.A.

It's over... Carolina loses to Virginia... 92-85 in OT.

Dean's worst season ever continues...  A first round loss in the
NCAA's would be the topper.

If I needed to win one game, I know that Terry Holland would be on the
short list of coaches I'd want.

> It's over... Carolina loses to Virginia... 92-85 in OT.

> Dean's worst season ever continues...  A first round loss in the
> NCAA's would be the topper.

  Dean's worst season ever continues...  A first round loss in the
  NIT would be the topper.

    
    	Duke over Maryland by 14....
    
    
    B.A.
    

    re: K-Comet
    
    Other Dean Disciples include:
    
    - Doug Moe (Denver Nuggets)
    - George Karl (former Cleveland Cavaliers coach.  Look for him to
                   resurface in the NBA soon)
    - John Kuester (George Washington University)
    - ACC Chris (Digital Equipment Corporation  ;^) ;^) )
    
    Also the fine Big10 commish, Delaney, is a UNC grad who played for Dean.
    
    
    re: ACC Tourney
    
    Congrats to Terry Holland, BobHunt, and the Virginia Cavaliers for a
    couple-a nice wins.  They simply wanted the game more against Carolina. 
    We were fortunate to send it into OT.  Stith, Crotty, Oliver, and
    Turner represent some mighty fine offensive firepower.  Oliver was
    particularly poisonous to the Heels.  The Cavs then knocked off a
    somewhat depleted Clemson squad.  (A bunch of em were suffering from
    the flu.)
    
    But of course the ACC Champeen was the Yellow Jackets who, without a
    doubt, have the finest trio in the USofA.  Anderson, Scott, and
    (tourney MVP) Oliver were too much for the upstart Wahoos.
    
    Congrats to Tech.  Some excellent games in this years tourney helped
    push the headline Pack & Terp stories to the back pages, if only
    temporarily.
    
    re: NCAA Tourney
    
    For its ACC Title and outstanding season, Georgia Tech gets a whopping
    #4 seed in the Southeast.  Ouch.  They'll play a dangerous E. Tennessee 
    State in Tennessee (these guys are no pushover) then face either LSU or
    Villanova.  Ugh.
    
    Maryland was left out, and no matter how much they may deny it, I gotta
    believe part of the snub was because of the pending NCAA allegations. 
    Plus they desperately needed a solid showing in the 1st round against
    Duke and proceeded to get blown out.  I'm not gonna shed too many tears
    over this one. 
    
    Duke should enjoy the benefit of an ACC arena as they play Richmond in
    Atlanta and then the winner of the St.John's vs. Temple game.  The
    Nerds are in pretty good position to advance to the Sweet 16, assuming
    they can shake their end-of-season slump.  (Duke's the #3 seed in the
    East.)
    
    Clemson is the #5 seed in the East and will be in Hartford to play BYU. 
    A win will likely match them up with LaSalle, which is a very
    interesting matchup.  Clemson should be recovered by then but must
    shake the stigma of a) Being patsies away from home; and b) Being
    patsies in the NCAA Tournament.  (Part b may be a redundency.)
    
    Virginia couped the #7 seed in the Southeast and will play undeserving
    tourney entry Notre Dame.  UVa is hot and should handle the Irish,
    especially with the game held in Richmond.  Lordy I hope they win this
    one.  Unfortunately a win matches them up with #2 Syrexcuse (tm), which 
    is a tough one for Virginia but a scary one for SorryExcuse (tm).  Again, 
    playing it in Richmond could make this intewesting.
    
    And finally UNC deserved no breaks and got none by being sent to
    Austin, TX as the #8 seed in the Midwest.  They'll face #9 seed SW
    Missouri St and if they're lucky enough to win will run smack into #1
    seed Oklahoma.  Tough draw without a doubt, but I'm sure OU could think
    of teams they'd rather face in the 2nd round than Carolina, no matter
    how down we may be this year.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
    UNC got no breaks? Just  getting a tourny bid was a BIG break IMHO.
    They didn't deserve it.

    Hoot, 
    
    Not only does UNC not deserve a bid, but IMO, neither do St. Johns,
    Providences, IU or OSU.  They all had, I believe 10+ losses, and
    finished in the middle of their conferences.
    
    JD

    re: Hoot & JD
    
    I'd like to know your rationale for this.  The goal is to get the top
    64 teams in, more or less.  The automatic bids circumvent this
    somewhat, but it makes it fun for the little guy.  With this in mind
    there is no question Carolina deserved a bid.  They finished tied for
    3rd in the ACC, had one of the toughest schedules in the country, and
    had 19 wins.  Nobody, I repeat, NOBODY, is questioning whether or not
    they deserved a bid, save you 2 radicals.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

Did UNC dersreve a bid?

    Chris,
    
    I thought the Heels finished 5th, not 3rd.  In that case, they deserve
    it.
    
    See, even your tone is condescending towards the little guys "The
    automatic bids circumvent this somewhat, but it makes it fun for
    the little guy..."
    
    Why do we naturally assume that because a team is from a smaller
    conference, they aren't as good as  the 6, 7 or 8 teams from the
    larger conferences?  Media prejudice, for one thing.  
    
    It is my belief that by the end of the century, either the NCAA
    tourney will almost totally exclude the smaller conferences, asn
    the bigger conferneces and the networks get greedier and greedier,
    or the field will grow to some assine number like 128 and the tourney
    will run until June....
    
    And why are smaller teams automatically made the lowest bids?
    
    Chris, I bring this up every year.  But for the most parts, folks
    only want to see the big schools, the known schools, the schools
    they see every year.
    
    JD

 
>    Chris, I bring this up every year.  But for the most parts, folks
>    only want to see the big schools, the known schools, the schools
>    they see every year.


which is why the ncaa should go back to a 32 team tourney and let the NIT be
the tourney for the smaller schools. I really don't think it does anybody
any good to see somebody like BU go in and get their but kicked in the first
round. Yes, the occasional upset or the occasional good first round game 
(harvard vs. georgetown ) does occur but its lack of frequency makes the
first round a total bore.

but the overriding love of $$$$ rules the ncaa.....


      Metz
   
  

    it was princeton-georgetown....
    

    Chris,I question UNC getting in. The NCAA tourney should be for winners
    and almost champions with a limit of four per conference. According to
    my system the ACC's four should be : Clemson(regular season champion),
    Georgia Tech(torunament winner),Duke (regular season runnerup) and
    Virginia(tournament runnerup).
    
    From the Big Ten,Purdue,Michigan State,Michigan and Illinois.
    From the Big East (UCONN,Syracuse,Georgetown and... a tossup between St
    Johns and Villanova,but give it to Villanova on the basis of the
    tourney win).
    
    I'd rather see another team from the Ohio Valley or the Mid American
    that may have had an outstanding season than the mediocre UNC's,Ohio
    States and Providences. 
    
    BTW,Chris,I am a University of Maryland graduate and I wouldn't want 
    the Terps in. It was a disgrace in 1974 that they didn't go anywhere
    with the third best team in the country,but the current setup is
    overkill.

    The ncaa tournament should encompass not 64 teams but 256 teams.
    A national championship tournament should allow all teams to
    participate.
    
    GT - Pat

    Picking Virginia over Carolina would've been a VERY tough call.  My
    guess is we would've gotten the nod due to a much more difficult
    non-conference schedule.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    
    How many of those low-seeded conference champs actually win games?  
    Not many.  Maybe they'd win more if they were seeded against some
    middle-caliber teams, but there are so many of these small conference 
    champs that the low seedings cannot be avoided.  I don't think media
    bias is at fault.  There are plenty of small schools in the tournament,
    which I like, but to be honest most of these teams would not have
    winning records in the major conferences.  Why be cynical towards the
    NCAA until they actually start yanking the automatic bids?  As it 
    stands now, there are enough of them without creating more.
    
    Did anybody catch the coach from So. Illinois' act?  He was accusing 
    the selection committee of prejudice and dishonesty.  Too bad.  He
    should go back to his own conference and rant and rave about using a
    post-season tourney to select its champion.  I don't think the NCAA
    needs to expand to two slots for conferences most have never heard 
    of, even if the team was 26-7.  I wonder who those seven losses came
    against?
    
    I'm glad Carolina's in.  Looking ahead a bit, I think they'll give
    Oklahoma a real test of character.  Billy Tubbs is on the hot seat as 
    far as I'm concerned.  He's yet to prove that he can coach down the 
    stretch in a close, tight game.  We'll get to see if Dean can pull one 
    over on him.  I like the matchup.
    
    glenn
    

    Re:.356 
    
    How can you pick Illinois and not Minnesota?  
    

>    How can you pick Illinois and not Minnesota?  
    
    Charles: I obviously don't know as much about the Big 10 as you,but my
    reasons for Illinois  over Minnesota were better overall record and
    tougher scedule. What was the head-to-head? Illinois' performance last
    year would be one more point in their favor.
    
    Unfair as it may seem,only one of those two should be in the NCAA.As
    JD said,"Why play the regular season?"

    DUKEsters,
    
    Looks like another Kansas/Duke matchup.  
    
    DUKE beat us in'86...
    Jayhawks won in '88...
    Who will win this year?
    
    See you in New Jurzzzy on the 22nd.
    
    Kansas Comet
    
    Comments: - LSU has the Southeast region cold. (home court 16 & 8)
              - New Mexico St. sleeper to beat Michigan
              - Once heard that Denny Crum only had one graduating senior
                that didn't attend a Final 4. (there on my dance card)
              - Purdue to choke again.
              - Missouri to lose to Syracuse (no depth) Peeler coke rumor
                 
    

    .362�    DUKE beat us in'86...
    .362�    Jayhawks won in '88...
    .362�    Who will win this year?
    
    	Duke has aleady played,and beaten Kansas this year...@ Duke!
    
    B.A.

    Looking at this weeks AP Poll confirms my suspicion that Georgia Tech got
    the royal shaft in the tourney selection process.  They're ranked ninth
    this week, a ranking they righteously deserve after winning the ACC
    Tourney.  Yet they've been given a #4 seed in the Southeast region, which 
    indicates they're no better than the 13th best team in the USA.  Worse
    yet, the Southeast is arguably the most difficult region this year and
    they're matched up against East Tennessee State in Round 1 *IN
    TENNESSEE*.  (E Tennesse St. has already beaten Tennessee on the Vol's
    home floor by 13 and NC State, in Raleigh.  They also nearly knocked off
    Oklahoma in Round 1 of last years tourney, losing by a scant point.)
    
    On the other hand Duke, which ALWAYS seems to get a big-time break from
    the NCAA's, has done it again.  They're ranked 15th this week, yet
    landed a #3 seed in the East, which many feel is the *easiest* region.  
    They're playing in an ACC arena (The Omni) against a tough but beatable
    Richmond team.  Duke didn't win the ACC, didn't even make it to the
    finals of the ACC Tourney, didn't have a particularly rugged
    non-conference schedule, and has been on a horrid end-of-season run,
    something the NCAA loves to emphasize.  (You know, the crap about Notre
    Dame being hot at the end, so they get in.  No matter that 4/5th of
    their season has been an utter disapointment.)
    
    All of this is reminiscent of last year when Duke got to stay in the
    East and play in Greensboro while the Tar Heels got shipped to the
    Southeast.  This was despite the fact that the Heels had won the ACC
    Tournament over the Nerds.
    
    Am I the only one who thinks Duke has been strangely blessed over the
    past few years???
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    
    Yeah, Duke's gotten a break.  I tend to be philosophical about these
    things, though.  Oklahoma is the #1 team in the country, and although
    they get to stay relatively close to home, by most accounts they're in
    the toughest regional.  But, hey, if they really are the best, they
    should be able to handle North Carolina, Arkansas, and Georgetown or
    Purdue, right?  If they get through it, it may actually be an advantage
    going into the Final Four.
    
    Dick Vitale put the whammy on North Carolina last night by predicting
    that they'd knock off OU.  He even said "Put it on the bulletin board,
    Billy Tubbs, you're going down...."  Not that it means much, but it's
    slightly reassuring to know that this blowhard is not on your side.
    
    glenn
     

    Way to go, Hoos ...
    
    Boy, I sure picked the right month to move to Charlotte.   Roll on
    into town just in time to get swept up in ACC Tournament fever.  
    
    Not to mention my beloved Wahoos coming oh-so-close to the
    championship.   Hmmm, let's see.  Knocking off *both* North
    Carolina and Clemson in successive days.   Nah, I wasn't too
    happy, was I ???
    
    Dare I say it ???   
    
    The University Of Virginia Cavaliers program is the premier
    athletic program in the Atlantic Coast Conference.   The 1989
    football co-champions and the 1990 men's basketball runners-up are
    the best overall *major* sports performances in the conference not
    to mention the Lady Hoos' 1990 women's basketball championship.
    
    And all done with no suspicions or allegations ...
    
    One proud Orange and Blue man ...
    
    Bob Hunt

    Bob, you're starting to sound like Chris .....
    
    The premire program in the ACC ??? Heh heh heh ...
    
    I lost all respect for Terry Holland when he couldn't get a good
    enough suppoting cast for Ralph to even get in the Final Two ....

    
    Vitale also questioned Jim Calhoun last night on the possibility of 
    moving with the ex-president of UConn to Virginia.  Of course Calhoun
    wasn't going to respond to something like that at this time, though.
    Any thoughts?  Or has this already been brought up in here?
    
    glenn
    

    Actually I've gained a certain amount of respect for Terry over the
    years.  It took me a long time for me to overcome his dog naming thing,
    but perhaps I overreacted.
    
    Suffice to say that Terry's an excellent coach who will be missed by
    the ACC.  He's leaving the program in excellent shape.  Many thought
    UVa would suffer a real recruiting void when he left, but they managed to
    sign a couple of decent players last year (Smith & Jeffries) plus they
    had a prop-48 casualty who, last I heard, still wants to attend UVa. 
    (He's in Community College land right now.  (Kids name escapes me at
    the moment.  He's a small forward.)  
    
    Plus the fact that he was able to turn in such a solid season despite
    being a lame-duck coach and suffering significant losses from last year
    (Dabbs & Morgan).
    
    My gut is Terry loves the coach part but dreads the recruiting. 
    Replacing him will be no easy chore.  I'd shoot for Rick Barnes myself.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

   � Bob, you're starting to sound like Chris .....
   � 
   � The premire program in the ACC ??? Heh heh heh ...
    
    Hey, Doc, why shouldn't I feel good about the Hoos.   The football
    team wins the conference championship, plays in a New Year's Day
    bowl game and finishes 10-3.  The basketball team was picked for
    7th place by every so-called "expert" but confounded them all by
    actually playing the games and finished a "hot" second in the
    tournament.
    
   � I lost all respect for Terry Holland when he couldn't get a good
   � enough suppoting cast for Ralph to even get in the Final Two ....
    
    Doc, you can't be serious.  Ralph Sampson played for the Wahoos
    from 1980 to 1983.   In 1980, they won the NIT.   This was the
    coming-of-age event for the entire program.  Believe me, it was
    big.  I was at Madison Square Garden for the final game against
    Minnesota (McHale, Tucker, Breuer).   The program was a winner
    from this point forward.
    
    In 1981, Virginia achieved a #1 ranking and went to the Final Four
    in Philly.  They lost in the national semis to Carolina and a
    red-hot Al Wood.   Remember the old cliche about you can't beat a
    team three times ???  They had already beaten UNC twice that year
    and couldn't win the third time.   They won the last-ever 3rd place
    game against LSU the day Reagan was shot.
    
    In 1982, they won the regular season ACC title but lost the ACC
    title game in that infamous 47-45 slowdown game with Carolina. 
    That was the game that inspired the 45-second clock.   The Hoos
    got a #1 seed in the Southeast Region.   And what did that get for
    them ???   A Sweet Sixteen matchup against Alabama-Birmingham on
    UAB's very own home court in Birmingham.  The Hoos lost by 2
    points.  That was one of the games that inspired the NCAA rule
    against teams playing tournament games on their own home courts.
    
    In 1983, they again won the ACC regular season title but this time
    ran into Valvano's magical mystery tour and fell by a single point
    to NC State in the West Region finals.  Ralph sank a jumper in the
    lane a second or two after the buzzer sounded.
    
    Disappointed ???  Hell, yes, I was crushed by each defeat.  But to
    downgrade Terry Holland for each of these events is not accurate.
    
    How do you explain Holland taking the Hoos to the Final Four in
    Seattle in 1984 ???  Or to the Final Eight last year against
    Michigan in the Southeast Region ???  Or to this year's ACC 2nd
    place finish ???
    
    And all without any hint of cheating or foul play ...
    
    C'mon Doc, look for the trees *and* the forest at the same time.
    
    Bob Hunt

    B.A. (.363),
    
    Wrong.  Do your homework.  
    
    Kansas has not played Duke this year.  You are thinking 
    of Kansas State.  There is a BIG difference between a 
    Jayhawk and a Wildcat.  
    
    Coach K had to deal with Larry Brown in two Final Four's 
    '86 & '88, and will now meet Roy Williams for the first 
    time in the round of 16 in New Jersey on the 22nd.
    In my oppinion, it wa no accident they wound up bracketed
    to play each other.  Subtle rivalry brewing...and revenge 
    factor a plus. 
    
    Come on ACC, there is basketball west of the Mississippi!
     
    PREDICTION:  2 BIG 8's in the Final 4 (you pick em)
    
    See you in Denver.
    
    
    Kansas Comet
                                  

    .371�    B.A. (.363),
    .371�    Wrong.  Do your homework.  
    
    	Oops! My bad!  I was thinking of Arizona! You know all those teams
    out that way sound the same around here...:*)
    
    B.A.

    Georgia Tech is starting to take on the appearance of a Final 4 team. 
    A complete thrashing of a tough E. Tennessee St team (this one was over
    at the half) was both unexpected and confidence-inspiring.  They should
    be able to dispatch of LSU, which then might match them with a possibly
    sputtering Spartan club.  From there, it might be Syrexcuse (tm), and
    some SU fans have already groaned about Tech posing the worst possible
    matchup situation for them.  Better watch out for the Jackets!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

	Tech was so impressive because they shot so well (16-of-19 in the
	first half, I believe), but throughout the second half of the season
	this has not been the case.  Almost certainly Tech's perimeter game
	will have to be nearly as hot, because the LSU front line will
	dominate the Jackets.  With Brian Oliver at about 40% (per coach
	Bobby Cremins), Tech will need a super-human effort from Dennis Scott
	to beat the Tigers.  I don't think they'll get it.

    Don't believe that 40% stuff.  If there's one thing Oliver's shown this
    year is that he can play with pain.  He'll be out there and will
    probably play well.  
    
    I used to be suspicious of two (2) things with Tech this year.  One was
    that they had to shoot well to win.  This is not the case, as they
    proved in the ACC tourney.  Secondly is that their front line is
    talented but weak due to underutilization.  What seems to be happening
    is these guys (Mackey, McNeil) have have really accepted their role and
    have come on to do at minimum an adequate job.
    
    In sum, I'll be shocked if LSU beats Tech.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    (ACC 4-0 if you count Maryland's NIT win)
    
    Tech should beat LSU handily. IMO, Tech's frontline is really
    underrated primarily because their backcourt is so exceptional.
    They also play much better defense than they are credited for.
    I don't see LSU's frontline dominating Tech's, and they will have 
    their hands full trying to stop the awesome threesome.
    
    Incredibly, the Tech-LSU game will not be on TV (at least not in 
    the Boston area). CBS will pass up the opportunity to show the
    matchup of the two best point guards in college hoops, two of the 
    best freshmen in the country, and two of the most exciting teams
    in hoopology. My white and gold heart is broken.
    
    Chris
    

    Tough break Chris.  I'll think of you during the game!  ;^)
    
    BTW - Has CBS published the games they're showing Saturday.  I'm
          operating under the assumption that Carolina vs. Oklahoma
          will definitely be on.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

Todays prediction: 2 more ACC wins. Virginia has a tough game against
Notre Dame who are one of the marginal teams in the NCAAs. But the Hoos
should handle the Irish. Duke should win fairly easily against the
Richmond Spiders but since this is the 1st round of the tourney it'll
probably be closer that it looks like.

	Virginia will cover the 2 1/2.
	Duke will win but not cover the 13 1/2.

TTom

    `Nuff said
    
    
    O_J

    For all you Carolina fans[sic] UNC beat OU(i'm sure you've heard
    already) on a last second shot by Rick Foxx.
    
    
    
    
    Later
    `Juice

Oh, that poor, poor ACC ...

*Only* a 9-1 record after two rounds of the tournament ...

Carolina takes out Oklahoma and their big-mouth coach, Billy Tubbs.  This game
forced me to modify my long-held desire that Carolina lose on all occasions.
Seeing top-seed Tubbs bite the dust against an ACC team for the second year
in a row was sweet.

Duke had a little soul-seaching party after the ACC tournament   They then
came out smoking and are going back to their favorite regional site, the 
Meadowlands.

Clemson survives a poor game against BYU and then beats the L-Train's La Salle
Explorers.

Georgia Tech continues its hot play of late and takes out LSU.

Only my beloved Cavaliers failed to advance.  They took out Notre Dame to the
delight of all those who felt the Irish didn't deserve a bid.  Then the Hoos
fell by 2 points to Syracuse in Terry Holland's finale.  Down the stretch, the
Hoos were taking it to the Orangemen but they just ran out of time.  Billy 
Owens hit a clutch jumper and Derrick Coleman made the key block.

Quite a weekend for the ACC ...

Bob Hunt

    Bob, I always wondered what it would take to get you to root for the
    Heels.  Looks like the discusting loud mouth Tubbs was the answer. 
    Course these guys don't stop when the lose.  Skeeter Henry after the
    game came up with the classic line "I still think we're the best team
    in the country." after the game.  Sure you are bub.  Cain't even beat a
    #8 seed!  
    
    Ketch, you're showing too much class in defeat.  IMHO, Stith got fouled
    on that last shot by Coleman.  Looked like Derrick got solid forearm on
    the block.  I'd like to here what Stith had to say about it.  In any
    case you played typical gritty Virginia ball and gave the Orange all
    they could handle.  10-0 woulda been awesome, but 9-1 ain't too shabby!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    Chris,
    
    I'm another who caint stomach Tubbs, so I was glad to see the Tarhells
    win ;-)
    
    It may have been a foul - and I feel a couple of other games might
    have had fouls on the last second shots, but I'm glad that they
    weren't called.  I hate seeing games decided by the whistle (such
    as lasted years final...)
    
    JD

Yeah, I thought Coleman fouled Stith, too.  But what can you do ???   It's 
over and they ain't coming back to argue about it.

I was just so thrilled to see the Wahoos play so well down the stretch in an
effort to send Holland out a winner.  In my opinion, they did just that.
No height to speak of, not much speed, and no real gunners.   Just a ton of
heart, guts, and determination.   That translates into rebounding advantages
and solid defense.  Both were in evidence all day yesterday.

Syracuse has the studs, no doubt about it.  Owens and Coleman are for real.
I was praying for a patented Boeheim Blunder but he managed to keep his brain
locked just long enough for the clock to run out.

Thanks again, Hoos ...

Bob Hunt

P.S.  An item of interest ...  Seems that the ACC has sent a letter to Playboy
protesting the use of the conference and team logos in the recent "Girls Of The
ACC" pictorial spread.  Something about lack of wholesome values and a misuse
of trademarks.   Blech ...

God, I wish the ACC brass would spend more time worrying about recruiting
violations, grades, point-shaving allegations, booster payoffs, and so on.
Focus on fixing the important problems and forget about Playboy, will ya 
please ???

    Stith quote on the block at the end of the game:
    
    "This is NCAA tournament time, so I don't think you can make a
    touch call like that.  That's the way things go."
    
    Stith is a class act from a class program.  Unlike say, Oklahoma,
    or Gene Keady of Purdue, whose tirade yesterday was inexcusable.
    
    NAZZ

    Believe me, Bob, I didn't pay a bit of attention to any ACC labels and
    trademarks!  I am very grateful, however, to the ACC for their fine
    display of young female, uh, talent!  Yeah, that's it- talent!
    
    :-)
    
    H'awk

Which would, of course, be two *LESS* losses than the *FIVE* that the almighty
Big Ten has already managed (er, mis-managed ...) to rack up so far.

And Michigan State and Minnesota don't exactly look overpowering, either.

Bob Hunt

    >Yup, the script is moving right along.  Now the stage is set for
    >yet three more of those excellent losses you people place so much
    >value on!

Yep, talk about your excellent losses.

Dan

    >The losses you cite weren't "excellent losses," they were losses
    >incurred by the one living coach apart from Wooden who's tournament
    >record is beyond criticism.

Sorry, I didn't realize the parameters you had placed on the term.  Is that
"beyond criticism" quote so we don't spend any time examining all the
underachievement?

Dan

I don't believe T ever used the term Good Loss to describe an Indiana loss.
It was always brought up to describe Dean-o's exits from the tourney.

He simply downplays the ability of his team so that early exits provide an
opportunity to spout I told you so-s to everybody that dared to call Indiana
a good team. :-)

You got to admit it's a great strategy. Downplay your team so you always think
they pull the underdog victory when they win and you can always say they 
weren't as good as everybody said when they lose. 

Metz

    One thing is 100% certain, the Hoosiers would have been better prepared
    for UCONN than Cal was.  Granted, I still think the Huskies would
    have won fairly easily, but Cal played like they had NEVER seen
    pressure before - and to me it was obvious they weren't prepared
    for it.   At least Indiana would have had the fundamentals down...
    
    JD

    	Wow, congrats to ACChris and all other ACC fans for the
    unbelievable 9-1 (almost 10-0) showing so far in the NCAA tournments!
    I never would have rated this conference on equal with the Big 8
    or Big 10 until watching them in action this last week!  It sort
    of makes me wonder if Maryland (I'm not sure which team was rated 6th 
    in the conference) should have made it??
    	Should be interesting to see how many teams make the final 8.
    
    sean

    .395�    unbelievable 9-1 (almost 10-0) showing so far in the NCAA tournments!
    
    	That's SO FAR!  Now is when the real tournament starts! Sure, you
    have a few underdogs in there, but the rest of the teams are for real!
    
    	U.N.L.V, L.M.T., and Syracuse should give the ACC all they can
    handle if it comes down to it. Don't get me wrong, I'm pulling for the
    ACC just as much as Bob and Chris, but you never know what's going to
    happen...  Let the tournament begin!
    
    B.A.

    With the present brackets my prediction is that the ACC will have
    zero teams in the final four.  I think Syracuse will eliminate 
    G tech, UCONN will take care of Clemson (handily) and Duke, and
    Arkansas will handle NC (handily).  
    
    Jimbo

    You could very well be right Jimbo.  But even if you are the fact that
    the ACC had 4 teams in the Sweet 16 is a fine accomplishment.  
    
    The ACC this year was a league of balance.  There were no teams that
    were ranked in the Top 5 for any length of time (Duke flirted there for
    a brief period) and, because of all the inter-league losses, even the
    Top 20 often only contained 2 or 3 ACC teams.  Keep in mind that the
    ACC lost 3 ballplayers in last years NBA lottery.
    
    But it would appear the overall quality of the league is about as
    strong as it's ever been though (despite the NCAA Selection Committee's
    opinion), and it should get better over the next couple years as many of 
    the teams are stocked with young talent.  
    
    The conclusions I draw from the NCAA tournament so far (league-wise)
    are that:
    
    a) The ACC was underrated.
    b) The Big 8 was vastly overrated.
    c) The Big 10 was overrated.  
    
    Pretty ironic, given the constant BillyTubbs,MrT-style bashing about
    how the ACC is overrated and overhyped, while those mid-western hoops
    leagues are the *really* tough ones.
    
    Heh heh!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Comments on upcoming ACC games:
    
    Clemson vs. UConn
    -----------------
    
    Interesting matchup featuring Clemson's awesome front-line and UConn's
    outstanding backcourt.  Clemson's backcourt isn't that bad though, as
    they've been schooled in the conference with the best guards in the
    USofA.  (Hurley, Anderson, Crotty, Corchiani.)  The Tigers will have
    to come to play from the get-go to hang in against the Huskies though.
    
    Bottom Line:	Slight edge to UConn.
    
    
    UCLA vs. Duke
    -------------
    
    Duke is playing in their home away from home: Byron Byrne Arena. 
    Forget about Duke's poor play at the end of the regular season. 
    Tournament momentum is built *during* the tourney, not before it.
    And they seem to be getting their act together, which should be more
    than enough to beat the Bruins.
    
    Bottom Line:	Duke by 10.
    
    
    Ga. Tech vs. Michigan St.
    -------------------------
    
    Give alot of credit to Tech for beating LSU.  The Tigers played their
    best game of the year and, even with Chris Jackson less than 100%,
    probably would've beaten just about anybody in the country Saturday
    night.  Michigan St. seems to be struggling.
    
    Bottom Line:	Georgia Tech by 5.
    
    
    UNC vs. Arkansas
    ----------------
    
    The Razorbacks are in great shape to advance to the Final 4, playing
    (potentially) their next 2 games in Dallas, a SWC arena, where they'll
    also benefit from a partesan crowd.  They're also loaded with
    outstanding players.  Only negative is they seem to be struggling a bit
    right now, while UNC is playing their best ball of the year.  
    
    Bottom Line:	Heart says UNC, mind says I'm too biased to
    			possibly give an honest opinion.  ;^)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

Uh, Soup, that's the "Brendan Byrne Arena".  Brendan Byrne was the Governor
of New Jersey for the eight years before Tom "Elmer Fudd" Kean held the 
office.

I have no idea who "Byron Byrne" is but he does not have an arena named after
him.

And, for the record, in my opinion, Brendan Byrne did nothing special that
would warrant naming a building after him.  Hell, he's still *alive*, fer 
cryin' out loud.  Makes you wonder just what political strings were pulled
to get that building built.

Duke has won the East Region in that building 3 of the last 4 years.  It is
just about a perfect venue for an NCAA weekend.

Bob Hunt

    Sorry 'bout that Ketch.  No disrespect intended.  I've actually been
    there several times (saw Carolina play LSU there in one of the most
    boring college games of all-time, 22-21 at halftime or something like
    that) so perhaps felt unnecessarily cocky that I knew what the name was. ;^)
    I thought it was one of the nicer hoops facilities I'd ever seen a game
    in, FWIW.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    
    

    Has this been entered already?  Skipped a lot of notes this mornings so
    sorry if it's a repeat.  If it's new news, sorry Chris.
    
    North Carolina forward Kevin Madden injured a knee in practice Monday
    and will be lost to the Tar Heels for the rest of the NCAA tournament. 
    He tore the anterior cruciate lgament in his right knee while driving
    past another player in a one-on-one drill.  The injury will have to be
    repaired surgically.
    

    Difficult to determine how this injury will effect Carolina, though
    it's hard to believe it's gonna help.  Kev doesn't score much and isn't
    much of a factor on the boards.  Come to think of it his defense ain't
    so hot either!  But he's a senior and provides some leadership I
    suppose.  Kevin missed a couple_a games earlier this year and we
    weren't effected much.  An overall decrease in depth might be the most
    obvious problem.  Look for George Lynch, Henrik Rodl, and Hubie Davis
    to get increased PT as a result of Kevin's injury.  Also Matt Wenstrom
    (7' frosh) will probably get a few more minutes.
    
    I hope the team doesn't get overly discouraged about this.  They can
    win without Kevin but how they approach his absence mentally will be
    the key.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    .399�    Comments on upcoming ACC games:
    .399�    Clemson vs. UConn
    
    	Your comments are correct Chris, but add one more thing, UCONN has
    a great back-court press! This could be Clemson's downfall, as you have
    said, Clemson isn't that bad, but I don't believe they'll handle the
    press with much success.
    
    B.A.

    
    If anything Chris I'd expect it to be a helpful boost. The old rah-rah
    let's get it for the senior deal and hey I got to impress with my
    increased playing time or loose it. I must say I was impressed with
    Lynch who hadn't even seen play before.
    
    mike

    >I introduced the term and place usage parameters on it only as it
    >applies to references made to my past uses of it.  Clearly what
    >Excellent Losses implies is the comparison of a larger number of
    >regional finals and/or Final Four choke jobs to National Championships.

yeah, yeah, yeah... I know all that.  It's been proven beyond the shadow
of a doubt that when you use your special terms like "Bob is an overachiever",
it means "I really like Bob." and when you say "Dean is an underachiever",
it means "I'm really jealous that Dean gets as much acclaim as Bob".

So now, it becomes clear that your "Excellent Losses" means, losing in
a high round of the NCAA Tournament.  And it's meant as a real put-down,
as if taking a team far into the tourney beyond where they should have 
finished (what the real world calls overachievement, not MrT's term) is
an accomplishment to be embarrassed by.

And further, that taking a team which everyone picked for the top 10 or
20 *in the country* to yet another first round loss - what the rest of the
world calls underachievement (again, not MrT's term) - you don't
have any good put-down term for that.   It's a shame, a real hole in the
vernacular.  

For what it's worth, I suggest that you label this year's embarrassment at
the hands of the mighty studs of the California Golden Bears another
example of overachievement (the MrT definition, natch').  

>1) The concept of relative underachievement isn't
>    applicable to one who has achieved more than anybody other active
 >   comparison 

Yeah, that's a beaut all right.  Aren't you a wee bit embarrassed just to have
typed it in?  You should be.

Dan

>    Hey ACCaught, if - as seems likely - your four teams depart this
>    weekend and the two from the Big10 get through, does your conference
>    appraisal change based on results?  Or do your criteria flip-flop?
    
    *IF* is the keyword here.  IF.  Right now though it's 9-1 verses
    7-5.  Even Hoot's infamous TWENTY-ONE logic cain't help you with this
    simple math.  Hah!
    
    And your "seems likely" comment is a classic.  It seems likely that
    Michigan State, which needed OT to beat a #16 seed and only beat UCSB
    by 4, is gonna get by Georgia Tech and Syracuse?  Sure it does.  And
    Minnesota to squeeze by the Orange?  I doubt it.
    
    I'll admit it's entirely possible the ACC could end up with no teams
    in the Final 4.  But I'd say it's *MUCH* less likely that any Big10
    school will be there.  Simple math is against you.  At best you could
    only end up with 1 team in Denver, where we could have 3.
                                                  
>    The idea of the tournament *is* to win the thing, rite?
    
    Yes.  But when comparing conferences it's obviously not the only
    metric.  You've admitted this so why bring up this ridiculous and
    simplistic statement at this point.  (Cause you're backed into a
    corner, that's why.)
    
    >Billy Tubbs-style,MrT bashing
    
    MrT:  The BillyTubbs of SPORTS.  I like it, and there's some truth
    there!
        
>    Btw, one week ago you were in the Big10 note conceding that it was
>    the best from top to bottom.  In fack, until last week end there
>    was little debate anywhwere in this file on which conference was
>    best, except a few peeps from the Big8 people, but *they're* gone
>    until the next ten years now...
    
    I admit the propaganda spewing forth from the press made me an
    (erroneous) believer that, this year anyway, the B10 was stronger
    top-to-bottom.  It's pretty obvious at this point the so-called experts
    were wrong.  The ACC places 4 teams in the Sweet 16 despite getting
    horrendous seedings courtesy of a committee chaired by a UNC-alum. 
    (Being a UNC alum apparently means little these days.  Curry
    Kirkpatrick took a nice cheap shot at his alma-mater in this weeks SI. 
    In the backpage editorial he implies Carolina was getting into the
    tourney thanks only to their reputation.  Never mind all those other 
    schools that got at-large bids with fewer wins and a much easier schedule, 
    never mind that we finished tied for third in the conference, never
    mind that we had one of the toughest schedules in the USofA, never mind
    any of it.  In the words of the Illini fans, "CHEAP SHOT!  CHEAP
    SHOT!"  Fortunately our win over OU made ole Curry look foolish, but it
    was still a lousy thing to say.)
    
    Anyway I digress.  Not only did we have 4 teams get in, but a FIFTH
    very nearly pulled a huge upset to sneak in, which woulda been an
    all-time record for most schools in the Sweet 16 from the same
    conference.
    
    Now let's look at the B10 performances.  The IU over-achievers, coached
    by the most brilliant basketball mind in the universe, coming off what
    everybody touted as one of the Top 3 recruiting classes in the USA,
    falls to mighty California from the awesome PAC-10, which 
    subsequently gets blown away by UConn.  That sure was impressive.
    Ohio St. pulls off a fortunate win thanks to a Providence choke-job. 
    PC had the game won but gave it away the last couple of minutes.  OSU
    apparently had enough of the thrill of victory though as they were
    quickly axed by powerful UNLV.  Illinois choked, Purdue choked,
    Michigan State, your champeen, needed OT to beat a #16 seed and then
    only beat UCSB by 4.  Not exactly impressive performances to say the
    least.  And lastly Michigan, a team with more talent than most NBA
    franchises, gets completely blown away by a team whose superstar just
    *died*!  Oh yes, a fine showing indeed.  You can spout your "what if
    your FOUR teams lose and my two teams win" crap all you want, but it's
    pretty obvious at this point which of the two conferences is stronger.
    
    'Nuf said.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
    Take a gander at who the ACC has played, other than OU. Quite favorable
    seeding, I would say.

    The Big10 is still better than the ACC,the inly reason they are doing
    better in the tournament is due to better coaching.Period.
    
    
    
    
    
    O_J

    >As for me, I'm not interested in elucidating further
    >on the matter, cuz you employ a floating criterion where I stick by stated
    >principle.
    
    >Big10 Tom

Not so fast, Slippery Tom.  I realize that you're uncomfortable with the facts
of another Hoosier crash and dive job in the NCAAs, but before you slide
on over to critisizing those who are still competing (after all, the tourney
only can have ONE winner, which you think means that you have to
ruthlessly and insidiously rip everyone else BUT Overachiever (read
as MrT's definition -> "I really like Bob") Bob for failing to be the one.
So much grist for your mill, huh?

Okay, I know it hurts.  Let's just take a second of reflection, while you prepare
to roast Dean for taking his team much further than they have a right to go,
and cover (up) the first round KO of your beloved.  I promise to be gentle,
for vindictiveness cuts across my grain.

   >the bookies had the game a tossup

Not the bookies that set the odds that the AP eventually reports in all the major
newspapers.  To the best of my recollection. IU was favored over the California
basketball factory by 6 to 8 points.  And certainly not by the NCAA committee
who deemed IU a higher seed than the aforementioned stud-studded Golden 
Bears.

   >the Big10's seventh best team

Yeah, but they were best a year ago, and added the cream of the recruiting
crop.  We basketball fans had a right to expect a little better than the dismal
showing in the overrated Big 10.  And before you say it, they lost two studs
who for some unknown reason (but let's not point any fingers anywhere near
the ill-fitting red sweater wearer) just didn't want to stay at Indiana.  That was
probably Dean's fault or something.

    >No, I'm afraid your reliance on preseason rankings won't cut it. 

It doesn't have to "cut it".  It just forms a reasonable means to measure
over- and underachievement in an objective manner, and IU '89-'90 is
definitely among the latter.

    >you woulda been forced by intellectual honesty to heap praise on Bob's 
    >genius coaching feat with last year's rag-tag bunch. 

I've never quibbled over Bob's coaching genious.  Before you and your
Bush-like campaign arrived in Sports, *I* was the one who stood by it.
But let's not lose sight of the fact that *in Bob's own words* he ardently
disagreed with your appraisal of the talent of last year's team.  After
all, intellectual honesty is my bag.

    >No, better to go by the criterion that the best indication of a
    >tourney is its winner, and that the best indication of a winner is the
    >one who's won the most tourneys. 

No, this is amateur basketball, not professional basketball.  There aren't
255 (whatever) losers every year and just one winner.  And I know, when
your argument of convenience isn't blinding you, you've agreed on this
point in the past.  The distance travelled within the tournement has
great meaning to everyone: coaches, players and fans.  It doesn't
fit your simple model, but it did the one you proposed last year (which
you withdrew after the results weren't to your liking).

    >You've become confused by your own bull.

No, but I've succeeded in pointing out, and correcting, your own.

Dan

    re- pre-LDUC note on UVa having best athletic program.
    
    I am biased, but I think Tech can make a strong case for having the
    best major sports program in the ACC this year. 7-4 in football, ACC
    champion in basketball (and still very much in the hunt in the
    playoffs), and the new No.1 baseball team in the nation with a 23-1
    record!!
    
    Chris  

    I'm sure I am echoing the feelings of many other noters when I say:
    
    HEY SHAUGHNESSY AND SCHNEIDER - GET THE HELL OUT OF THE ACC NOTE AND
    ARGUE WITH EACH OTHER IN YOUR OWN NOTE.
    
    There.  I feel better already.
    
    As for the ACC teams in the tourney, I predict none of them will see
    the weekend.
    
    NAZZ

    I'll keep it short for Nazz's sake (the ever-so-gracious ticket
    provider).
    
>So sorry, Schneid.  I've factually rebutted each of your substantive points in
>this note (such as they are), and you will tacitly admit this by failing to 
>rebut the rebuttals.
    
    No need to apologize, Tom.  Everyone recognized your "factual"
    rebuttals as nothing more than the rehash of your fabled bigotted
    opinions applied to a subject you'd always rather leave alone:
    Richmond, Cleveland St., California Golden Bears.  Yeah, sure you threw
    in some of the usual personal attacks against me, but that's an
    accepted feature about the weakness of your tired arguments.  As per
    usual, you told a few whoppers, such as comparing Jay Edwards with JR
    Reid, but that's not too important at the moment.  It's not even so
    important that you can hypocritically proclaim the importance of the
    Big 10's regular season, and then leave it insignificant in trying to
    cover up Overachiever ("I really like Bob") Bob's tournament
    underachievment.
    
    The facts (NOT facks, very slippery creatures those) that have been
    established:
    
    Bob took last year's Big 10 champions already a fine bunch according to
    him, added what everyone called the best recruiting class in the
    nation, had a top 10 season regularly predicted for him in the hoops
    annuals, had a cream-puff out-of-conference schedule, and then
    brilliantly guided his team past Northwestern and Wisconsin to 7th
    place in the overrated Big 10, and then, capitalizing on his stature in
    a college basketball industry that needs the IFRS on national TV, lost
    in the NCAAs in the first round to a California Golden Bear team which
    everyone has said is lacking and showed it by getting absolutely
    demolished in their next game.
    
    And it's all real, honest-to-goodness, look the definition up in the
    dictionary, FACT!
    
    Dan

    Ah, bringing laurel-resting to a new low.  How refreshing.
    
    "But Dan, stop being so mean to my idol.  Bob's the greatest.  Bob's
    won the title three times in the past, so that means no ones supposed
    to look at the deep troughs in between his sporadic peaks.  And don't
    talk anymore about this year's underachievement because I'm attempting
    to white wash this one away, so if you persist I'll call you a liar and
    a hypocrite, even if I have no basis.  It worked for George Bush,
    right?"
    
    Tell the California Golden Bears coach about all those great historical
    records that you claim Bobby Knight holds.  Who knows, it might have
    intimidated them.
    
    Dan

    
>    - He has among the all-time best overall winning percentage in the
>      NCAA tournament.  He had the highest overall for a while a few
>      years back.                             
      
    	Wanna know who's ahead of him?  [Dean]
    
	    
>    - He is among the all-time leaders in total victories in the NCAA
>      tournament.
    
	Wanna know who's ahead of him?  [Dean]    
    
    
    You shrug off Dean's 10th straight Sweet 16 appearance as nothing but
    "good losses", then extol the virtues of Knight for piling up similar
    credentials. 
    
    Can you say "T-hypocrisy" kids?  I knew you could.
    
    
    - ACC Chris	
    

    
    	Yeah, Chris, but who's won more champeeeenships??  8^)  Knight's
    a cool dude.  Definitely gets an A for personality and an A for
    spokesmanship.  Like his game time antics or not he is truly one
    the best coaches around.  JMO.
    
    sean

    Dean is ahead in total victories but Knight has the highest winning
    pct. of active coaches.  Dean is in 8th place, I believe.
    

    Don't think that's true Cap.  I believe Dean is ahead of Bob on winning
    pct.  Where's "O"Hendry?  We need some FACTS here.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    Dean's NCAA Tourney record is consistently good, while Bob's has been
    occasionally brilliant.
    
    Fair summation?
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    Hope this helps,
    
    
    O_J

    Here's the FACKS, Chris, do what you want with them....
    
    All-time NCAA Tourney winnig pct. of active coaches
    
    1. Knight		.730
    2. CoachK		.727                                   
    3. Massimino	.704
    4. Crum		.689
    5. Davis		.688
    6. Thompson		.676
    7. Smith		.672
    
    And not to far behind
    
    8. Heathcoate	.667
    9. Tubbs		.654
    10 Valvano		.652
    11 Tarkanian	.643
    
    Don't mess with the FACKS boy or you're gonna get burned :-)
    
    Cap

    >No one's called you a "liar," only that your argument is patently
    >mendacious.  And now you're typing in fantasies about what I'm
    >saying - but careful enough to use quotation marks (thanx).
    
    There isn't much difference between the two, either your
    characterizations of my assessment, or my paraphrasing of your pro-Bob
    attitude.  There was nothing mendacious in any of my notes.  I
    corrected you last week: the word you should have used was tenacious. 
    Get it right please, because otherwise, I consider it an insult to my
    character.
    
    >No, you're being called mendacious and a hypocrite cuz you cain't
    >call a guy a tournament underachiever when he has among the best
    >overall tourney winning percentages and among the most wins ever.
    
    Call me all the names you want.  Bob's record in this year is
    underachievement, a vast one at that!  How many of the other pre-season
    Top 10s were first round tourney KOs?  Maybe one.  Besides Indiana.
    
    Now I wouldn't be hammering this point in, but for the fact that you're
    calling me all these hurtful names, and denying the factual and
    obvious.  The NCAA isn't giving away early round byes for a lifetime
    achievement awards, so your claims that Bob's record is almost as good
    as Dean's  didn't help him past the California Golden Bears.  You can
    ignore this, you can argue this, but don't call me names for stating
    the bare facts as they are.
    
    >Now, quit telling lies about Bob's sterling tournament record and
    >get real for a change.
    
    I haven't told any "lies" about Bob's tournament record, in fact, I'm
    the one who typed the whole thing in here two years ago, much to your
    consternation.  I think you should use another T-term instead of lies,
    like MU's which you use below.  That way people can reconcile it like
    they do your FACKS, your DASTISTICS and your OVERACHIEVER, meaning
    things that are not facts, statistics and overachievement.  So MU works
    just fine: that would be "Things that MrT doesn't want to hear" like
    Richmond, Cleveland State, Jay Edwards, Funderburke, chair-throwing,
    Puerto Rico, etc, etc, etc.
    
    Dan

    Cap, have you got the W-L records to go along with the percentages? 
    Also, are you including this year?
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    Knight 29-11
    Smith  41-20
    
    With this year's totals
    
    Knight 29-12 .703
    Smith  43-20 .682
    
    Dean does have the most victories of any active coaches, but he
    has the most losses as well. :-)  And he's way behind on the number
    of title wins. :-)
    
    In fact has Dean ever beat a Bob Knight coached team in the NCAA
    Tourney, even when he's had clearly superior talent????
    
    Cap

    Let's see ...
    
    Michigan and Indiana are at home watching the rest of the
    tournament on CBS.
    
    Carolina is in Dallas preparing for a regional semi with Arkansas.
    
    Eric Montross signs with Carolina.
    
    Coincidence ???   Hardly.
    
    If there's anyone out there who feels like bashing Carolina today,
    get in line behind me.   I've already yelled "lock and load". 
    Look out, Soup, you're on my hit list today.
    
    Gawd, I *hate* the Tar Heels.  Year in and year out, the top studs
    sign to play for this team.
    
    It's just not fair.
    
    Bob Hunt

       Take heart Bob, Smif will still not win a dang thing, talent or not.
    This'll just prove the underacheiver moniker even further.
                                Denny

    True Bob, it ain't fair.  But who ever said life was fair?  Heh heh!
    
    Details from the Montross signing are as follows:
    
    It appears Eric took Dean's advise and rated each of his 3 finalists. 
    They rated coaches, academics, and incoming class, and Carolina came to
    the top "in almost all categories".  Montross cited Dean's work with
    big men: "Ten of the 17 big men recruited by North Carolina in the last
    20 years were first-round draft choices in the NBA."  He was also
    impressed with UNC's academic record.  Apparently old man Montross
    tried talking his son out of his decision by playing devil's advocate
    after Eric announced his decision, but he didn't budge.
    
    Our freshman class next year could probably compete for the ACC Title
    in and of itself.  Here's the roster:
    
    G	Derrick Phelps
    G	Brian Reese
    C   Eric Montross
    F	Pat Sullivan
    F   Cliff Rozier
    
    As I've said, this is Dean's finest hour as far as recruiting is
    concerned.  Let's just hope the magic continues tonight against
    Arkansas!  
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    I asked this semi-seriously in the Big Ten note. I'll be real serious
    here.
    What are the respective graduation rates for Smith and Knight?
    I bet they are lower than the 90% that Digger Phelps has, probablly
    lower than the 85% that Gary Colson has, but they are probably higher
    than Tark the Slime's rate of 1% (his son, Danny, somehow slipped up
    and graduated, and is now a Las Vega$ lawyer)
    
    Does anybody know? We all will next year, when the new NCAA rule
    publicising this figure comes out
    
    ...mike
    

    Interesting, Mike, that you would raise Digger Phelps' name.
    
    Most folks loathe Digger Phelps and his Irish hoops team.   He may
    very well be a poor game coach and a poor recruiter but the man is
    a model "program coach".
    
    His graduation rate is extraordinary and people should give him
    more credit for it.
    
    Bob Hunt

    mike,
    
    The last statistics I heard had both IU and UNC well over 90%.  The
    Hucksters were slightly ahead of Carolina if I recall.  Both Dean and
    Bob are notoriously strident about their kids graduating.
    
    Interesting thing I read recently about Dean, when asked about his kids
    graduating.  While he obviously feels it's of primary importance, he
    downplays his role in his players graduating.  His exact quote was
    something on the order of "The kids and parents are the reason for the
    high rate.  Coaches don't go to class."  If anything I think this
    highlights that the most important thing in achieving a high graduation
    rate occurs before they step foot on campus.  Namely, defining who you
    will (and won't) offer a scholarship to.
    
    One other interesting insight to the Dean vs. Bob thing is that, while
    we all battle back and forth defending our leader, the two are actually
    good friends.  This weeks Carolina Blue talks about them playing some
    golf together during the off-season and they both have a high-degree of
    respect for the other, often supporting each others proposals.  I've a
    suspicion (complete conjecture here) that Bob could've actually pushed
    Eric toward Carolina, just as Dean tried to push Jerod Mustaf away from
    Maryland and toward Georgetown a couple of years ago.  Why?  To get
    them out of the league, that's why.  IU is gonna have to play Michigan
    an awful lot more than UNC over the next 4 years.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

chris,

IF dean doesn't win a title in the next 4 years with his greatest recruiting
class ever will you be willing to lable him with the title Underachiever ?

Lets save the answer to this one for posterity....

Metz

    You know it's funny, I just went through all 3 of my pre-season
    basketball mags and could not find one that listed Indiana as a
    pre-season top 10 team.  In fact they all had Indiana listed to
    finish somewhere between 3rd and 7th in the Big10 and this was with
    Funderbunke.
     
    Dan McCarthy which one did you use for  you're pre-season top 10 
    propaganda?
    
    Cap

Re: graduation rates

	An article that I saw last fall was discussing this with regard to
football programs. Notre Dame and the Service Academies (Air Force etc.) were
up there at the top. The criteria they were using was: from the time a young
man joins the program (Freshman, Sophomore or Junior transfer, whatever), what
percentage of them graduate? They mentioned that many schools used a percentage
figure based on how many of their Seniors graduate, which naturally inflates
the percentage significantly. If the former criteria were used ( % after
joining the program ) I doubt if NCU OR Ind would be over 90%. (Note _ I'm not
saying this as a slam, just putting things in perspective. I think both
programs are to be complimented for the emphasis place on Academic
Achievement.) If you stop and think about it, even excellent schools usually
have a graduation rate that looks relatively shoddy if you count percentage of
graduation of all who enter the school. To have student athletes do so well is
definitely cause for kudos all round.

Mike JN

    
    Hmmm, do I smell another sweatshirt contest coming 'round the bend?
    

>    Big10 Tom (a_HONEST contest operator)
    
    Looks like we have more in common than we thought Tom.  Care to get
    together for a round of golf, Dean & Bob style?  Heh heh!
    
    Seriously though I'm a bit of a nervous wreck right now contemplating
    tonights run-in with the Hogs.  In many ways they represent a clone of
    OU in terms of playing style.  They've got a bit more inside power but
    possibly are not quite as talented as the Sooners.  The key for the
    Madden-less Tar Heels will be to control tempo.  Our bench is thinned a
    bit so avoiding foul trouble could be more important than usual.  Fox
    simply cannot foul out.  Look for Scott Williams to have a big game
    tonight.  
    
    The Razorbacks will enjoy the homecourt edge.  They're more talented
    than us and could even blow us out.  I hope not.  For some reason
    they've struggled in their first 2 games which means either they'll
    bust out tonight and play well and win (if so, they're in the Final 4
    guaranteed) or struggle and possibly get beat.
    
    In any case I think I speak for everyone (well, sorta) when I say
    GO TAR HEELS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    ;^)
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    >Didn't even have to read to the bottom of it
    >to find you misrepresenting that Indiana was a preseason Top 10
    >(it wasn't).

If that's your example of mendacity, than it is absolutely true when I say 
there is nothing mendacious in any of my notes.  I picked up two magazines
last fall.  Dick Vitale's 89-90 Basketball (part of the series of sports
annuals which I consider the best these days) has Indiana rated at #8
for this season.  Sports Illustrated didn't pick a Top 10 as they have in
past years, but instead opted for a Sweet Sixteen.  Indiana was among
them, and mentioned prominently. 

Pre-season experts placed Indiana very highly.  That is verifiable fact,
which is significantly better than your "I really like Bob"+ad hominem
attacks rebutals.

    >First we find a raft of first game losses blotching Smif's record
    >too;

Comparing apples and oranges.  This "raft" was afloat when the tournament
was significantly smaller, and many of this "raft" weren't first round 
disappointments against inferior competition like California, Cleveland St. and
Richmond.  Since the field was increased to 64, we can see that Dean's
record is Sweetly (16) Consistent.  Bob suffers a lot of valleys for his 
occasional peak.  While Dean did lose a few first games in the smaller
fields of the '70s, we can also see that some of those years, Bob wasn't
even invited to the NCAAs.

Dan

    
    And why all the hype about the NCAA now that the best teams are NOT
    playing in the tourney?   8^D
    
    Cowboy

    
    Clemson loses 71-70 on a last second shot by UCONN.  
    
    	There should have been no way for UCONN to score tha length of the
    court with 1 second left! The Clemson players didn't even put their
    arms up to try and stop them. Clemson had it won, but let it slip away!
    
    B.A.

Remember that the clock doesn't start until the ball is touched.  So going the
full length of the court added no time since the pass was a long bomb.  It was
a close call.  I think there's a slow-up disease among scorers in the general
New York area ;^).  But no matter.  I love an exciting ending.

j.

    
    Jeff,  did you see the slo-mo fast forward one frame at a time they
    did of it? Shot left his hand just as the light went on and the buzzer
    sounded when the ball was half way to the hoop. In college the buzzer
    rules for those that may wonder what signifies the end of regulation.
    Shot looked good even by NBA standards.
    
    Also for the record in the LDUC  IU was rated #21 by TSN in pre-season
    
    
    mike

		Indiana				North Carolina

1939		DNP				DNP

1940		1st: IU 48 Springfield 24	DNP
		2nd: IU 39 Duquesne 30
		Title: IU 60 Kansas 42

1941		DNP				1st: Pittsburgh 26 UNC 20

1942		DNP				DNP

1943		DNP				DNP

1944		DNP				DNP

1945		DNP				DNP

1946		DNP				1st: UNC 57 NYU 49
						2nd: UNC 60 Ohio St 57
						Title: Okla St 43 UNC 40

1947		DNP				DNP

1948		DNP				DNP

1949		DNP				DNP

1950		DNP				DNP

1951		DNP				DNP

1952		DNP				DNP

1953		1st: Bye			DNP
		2nd: IU 82 DePaul 80		
		3rd: IU 79 Notre Dame 68
		4th: IU 80 LSU 67
		Title: IU 69 Kansas 68

1954		1st: Bye			DNP
		2nd: Notre Dame 65 IU 64

1955		DNP				DNP

1956		DNP				DNP

1957		DNP				1st: UNC 90 Yale 74
						2nd: UNC 87 Canisius 75
						3rd: UNC 67 Syracuse 58
						4th: UNC 74 Mich State 70 (3 OT)
						Title: UNC 54 Kansas 53 (3 OT)

1958		1st: Bye			DNP
		2nd: Notre Dame 94 IU 87

1959		DNP				1st: Navy 76 UNC 63

1960		DNP				DNP

1961		DNP				DNP

1962		DNP				DNP

1963		DNP				DNP

1964		DNP				DNP

1965		DNP				DNP

1966		DNP				DNP

1967		1st: Bye			1st: Bye
		2nd:  VPI 79 IU 70		2nd: UNC 78 Princeton 70
						3rd: UNC 96 BC 80
						FF Semis: Dayton 76 UNC 62

1968		DNP				1st: Bye
						2nd: UNC 91 St Bonaventure 72
						3rd: UNC 70 Davidson 66
						FF Semis: UNC 80 Ohio St 66
						Title: UCLA 78 UNC 55

1969		DNP				1st: Bye
						2nd: UNC 79 Duquesne 78
						3rd: UNC 87 Davidson 75
						FF Semis: Purdue 92 UNC 65

1970		DNP				DNP

1971		DNP				DNP

1972		DNP				1st: Bye
						2nd: UNC 92 S. Carolina 69
						3rd: UNC 73 Penn 59
						FF Semis: Fla St 79 UNC 75

1973		1st: Bye			DNP
		2nd: IU 65 Marquette 59
		3rd: IU 72 Kentucky 65
		FF Semis: UCLA 70 IU 59

1974		DNP				DNP

1975		1st: IU 78 UTEP 53		1st: UNC 93 N. Mexico St 69
		2nd: IU 81 Oreg St 71		2nd: Syracuse 78 UNC 76
		3rd: Kentucky 92 IU 90

1976		1st: IU 90 St Johns 70		1st: Alabama 79 UNC 64
		2nd: IU 74 Alabama 69
		3rd: IU 65 Marquette 56
		FF Semis: IU 65 UCLA 51
		Title:  IU 86 Michigan 68

1977		DNP				1st: UNC 69 Purdue 66
						2nd: UNC 79 Notre Dame 77
						3rd: UNC 79 Kentucky 72
						FF Semis: UNC 84 UNLV 83
						Title: Marquette 67 UNC 59

1978		1st: IU 63 Furman 62		1st: San Francisco 68 UNC 64
		2nd: Villanova 61 IU 60

1979		DNP				1st: Bye
						2nd: Penn 72 UNC 71

1980		DNP				1st: Bye
						2nd: Texas A&M 78 UNC 61 (2OT)

1981		1st: Bye			1st: Bye
		2nd: IU 99 Maryland 64		2nd: UNC 74 Pittsburgh 57
		3rd: IU 87 UAB 72		3rd: UNC 61 Utah 56
		4th: IU 78 St Josephs 46	4th: UNC 82 Kansas State 68
		FF Semis:  IU 67 LSU 49		FF Semis: UNC 78 Virginia 67
				Title Game:  IU 63 UNC 50

1982		1st: IU 94 Robert Morris 62	1st: Bye
		2nd: UAB 80 IU 70		2nd: UNC 52 James Madison 50
						3rd: UNC 74 Alabama 69
						4th: UNC 70 Villanova 60
						FF Semis: UNC 68 Houston 63
						Title: UNC 63 Georgetown 62

1983		1st: Bye			1st: Bye
		2nd: IU 63 Oklahoma 49		2nd: UNC 68 James Madison 49
		3rd: Kentucky 64 IU 59		3rd: UNC 64 Ohio State 51
						4th: Georgia 82 UNC 77

1984		1st: Bye			1st: Bye
		2nd: IU 75 Richmond 67		2nd: UNC 77 Temple 66
				3rd:  IU 72 UNC 68
		4th: Virginia 50 IU 48

1985		DNP				1st: UNC 76 Mid Tenn 57
						2nd: UNC 60 Notre Dame 58
						3rd: UNC 62 Auburn 56
						4th: Villanova 56 UNC 44

1986		1st: Cleveland St 83 IU 79	1st: UNC 84 Utah 72
						2nd: UNC 77 UAB 59
						3rd: Louisville 94 UNC 79

1987		1st: IU 92 Fairfield 58		1st: UNC 113 Penn 82
		2nd: IU 107 Auburn 90		2nd: UNC 109 Michigan 97
		3rd: IU 85 Duke 82		3rd: UNC 74 Notre Dame 68
		4th: IU 77 LSU 76		4th: Syracuse 79 UNC 75
		FF Semis: IU 97 UNLV 93
		Title:  IU 74 Syracuse 73

1988		1st: Richmond 72 IU 69		1st: UNC 83 North Texas 65
						2nd: UNC 123 Loyola Marymount 97
						3rd: UNC 78 Michigan 69
						4th: Arizona 70 UNC 52

1989		1st: IU 99 George Mason 85	1st: UNC 93 Southern 79
		2nd: IU 92 UTEP 69		2nd: UNC 88 UCLA 80
		3rd: Seton Hall 78 IU 65	3rd: Michigan 92 UNC 87

1990		Cal over IU in first round	Arkansas over UNC in 3rd round
    

    The Sporting News selected Dennis Scott of Georgia Tech as national
    Player of the Year!! The bad news is that this will almost certainly
    guarantee that Scott will go "hardship" and enter the draft. There is
    some hope because no Tech player has ever gone hardship before (not
    that there have been very many who were good enough).
    
    Chris

    
    Is he going to share the award with Anderson and Oliver? ;^)
    
    While I think the world of Dennis Scott, I think the L-Train got
    ROBBED!!!!
    
    mike

    One of the things that has gone unnoticed in all the hoopla over ACC
    versus Big Ten versus Big East versus Big Eight is the lightly regarded
    South west Conference. Lasted night they placed two teams in the
    Awesome Eight. Arkansas looked great in pasting UNC and Texas Travis
    Mays looks as good as any player in the tournament. Way to go SWC!!
    
    Chris

   � Indiana was ranked anywhere from 13th through around 25 in the various
   � preseason polls (TSN, USA Today, AP, UPI, CNN, etc.).  The 13th
   � ranking was, I'm guessing, in the poll where coaches vote, you know,
   � the poll that at the outset always reflects the previous year.  After
   � ThunderBurp departed and they started playing tough Big10 opponents
   � the polls caught up with reality.
    
    And based on their first-round defeat to the mighty California
    Golden Bears, the Hoosiers finished in a 32-way tie with the other
    first-round losers for 33rd best team in the nation.
    
    Tied for 33rd could easily be considered an "underachievement"
    compared to the expectations (#13 through #25) set for them.
    
    Bob Hunt

    Bob, I'm disappointed in you.  One game does not a season make.
    I suppose that you are going to tell all of us that Missouri is
    in a 32-way tie 33rd best team in the nation and that California,
    Dayton,UCSB,Northern Iowa,Ball State,etc... are far superior to
    Missouri.  VERY weak argument if you ask me.
    
    The Wizard

    
    I'm opposed to these dollars-for-graduation percentage proposals.
    Just seems like another avenue for corruption and further watering down
    of academic standards.  It can be argued that all things being equal in
    terms of academic quality of recruited athletes (which I know is not 
    the case, but for comparison purposes), that the *better* schools might 
    have the lower graduation rates.  People forget that national averages 
    for graduation rates hover around 50%, far below the percentage some 
    athletic programs maintain, making me skeptical of what really goes on
    in the athletic programs.  Should athletes even be given the privilege
    of special help, beyond what is necessary to make up class time lost to
    travel, etc.?
    
    If real solutions cannot be found to the problem of who should be
    admitted to school in the first place, I'd rather have the athletic 
    programs in the negligent schools continue to be mired in the academic 
    squalor than to have the value of a degree cheapened for everyone.
    
    glenn

    	The Wizard is right Bob.  I would rate Indiana a whole lot lower
    than 33rd.
    
    				/Don

    Ketch was just using T's own T-illogic against himself, that's all.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    re .470: Then how would you spilt up the pie? 
    
    Remember it is a LARGE pie, and the amount of dollar$ available
    certainly put the lie the the designation "amateur". 
    
    I see only three ways to do it:
    
    1) Graduation rates (my preference, but most unlikely to happen)
    
    2) Equal division of the $142.8 million per year with a trophy going to
       	    the team that wins it all (but no extra ca$h) (Almost as unlikely 
    	    as 1)
       2a. If this is the case then what arguments are there for not
    	   including all 291 Division 1-A schools in the Tournament (except
    	   those on probation) (Allowing all schools a crack at the prize
    	   would cut down on the recruiting cheating since you remove the	
    	   monetary incentive to cheat; i.e. you cheat to get better
    	   athletes so you can go to the tournament so you can get more
    	   $$$$)
    
    3) A subset of the schools get most of the ca$h (which in turn by the
    	converse of the argument above impiles more (incentive for)
    	cheating) (most likely to happen)
    
    I am sure that there are some coaches whose egos are so big that they
    will be tempted to cheat on recruiting for more glory and honor to ol'
    Podunk U. but I sincerely doubt that there would be anywhere near the
    problems that there are now.
    
    Or will CBS scuttle any talk about this because they want "the best
    teams" (i.e. the Big Names) to be in the finals? I daresay that the
    real fans will be happier to watch, say, Alcorn State vs. Lamar
    University if both teams are good than, say, Syracuse vs. North
    Carolina if both those teams are bad. But not the boys at CBS...
    
    Think about it.
    
    ...mike
    

>    What's verified here is that you false claimed "top 10," NOT "very
>    highly."

I already supplied two sources which verified the fact (not claim, fact).

>    As for you the implication (sic) by behind (sic) this particular Dan M.U. (that
>    Bob "underachieved" in the tournament), that doesn't wash either.

Listen, I already caught you fibbing about who was favored in the IU - 
California game.  It was last year's IU team that you had to tear down to
try to get someone to believe that they shouldn't achieve success in the
tournament, not this year's team.  They were supposed to beat California,
even considering the whole regular season's worth of excuses you made for 
them.  They didn't.  Really I don't care what kind of achievement you care 
to label it at this point, but don't try to convince me that they were
underdogs against a light weight team from a light weight division.

Pre-season, California was hoping to reach the NIT's, while IU was 
supposed to be anywhere from 8th to 25th best team in the country.
Post-season, they meet in the NCAAs, first round, and IU, although
the favorite in everyone's eyes (except apparantly, your own) lost.

To you that's an M.U.  To the rest of the world, that's fact.  To me it's
just stuff that you don't want to admit.  That's all an M.U. is, facts that
MrT doesn't like.

>    but to hype this year's unsurprising first
>    round loss as "proof" that Bob has a poor NCAA record from a coaching
>    standpoint is just plain wrong.

The first round loss was *very* surprising.  When an unranked team coming
off an early round NIT loss upsets Bobby Knight and the Hoosiers, that
qualifies as surprising, especially considering Knight's NCAA record.  And
I haven't offered the opinion that Knight "has a poor NCAA record from a
coaching standpoint".  For about the 6th zillionth time, I've caught you
fabricating arguments and saying that they are mine.

    >Ain't winning percentage considered a fair objective measure of
    >consistency?  Huh?

No, and an elementary understanding of the subject of Statistics would
teach you that.

Dan

    >Right now you've only supplied an almost irrelevant
    >and highly questionable unsubstantiated claim.
 
No, you'r lying again.  I've supplied two references which anyone can look
up for themselves, or come to my office/home and I'll show them upon
request.  That you don't believe these facts is part and parcel of your
absurd dislike for anything which doesn't praise Knight, such as the
facts I've brought up.

    >Still waitin' for your retractions on the best NCAA tourney winning
    >percentage thing, though.  Are you man enough?

I'm more man than you, considering you won't answer any of the questions
I've put to you.  I have nothing to retract, since I made no claims on
Knight's tourney winning percentage.  Why not deal with the issues 
without all the hypocrisy?  Afraid to wander around without your favorite
crutch?

Dan

    Congrats to the ACC for an outstanding NCAA tourney showing.  We had
    1/4 of the Sweet 16 and now have fully 50% of the Final 4.  It's been
    awhile since we pulled this off (Virginia & UNC the last to do it in
    '81 I think?).
    
    Sure to consume lots of disk space in here is the Tech win over
    Michigan State.  Kenny Anderson's bucket to tie it at the end of
    regulation appeared to my eyes to go in just a tiny hair after :00
    showed on the clock.  Where the horn fits into this I can't say.  In
    any case give Smith from Michigan St (heckuva ballplayer, BTW) credit
    for not making excuses about it.  (Fact is he coulda iced it if he made
    his free throws, but he missed the front of the 1&1.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Chris,
    
    The clock is sort of irrelevant in this situation.  The officials
    are watching the ball and listening for the horn, which is synchronized
    with the clock hitting 00:00.  If the ball is released before the
    horn goes off, then the shot is good.  If the ball is released after
    the horn, it's no shot.  CBS showed the play on its pre-game show
    on Friday and it looked to me like the ball was not released before
    the horn sounded and shouldn't have counted.
    
    John

    Oops, sorry, meant to say it was shown on the pregame show on Saturday
    not Friday.
    
    jh

    
    Didn't really seem that close even in full speed, although CBS played
    it up over how difficult a call is was...
    
    glenn
    

    Fact is Fack(tm).....
    
    The ACC once again proved that real basketball is played in the East.
    And, the Big Ten Bigots can thank Minnesota for preventing the 
    perennial early exit by all Big Ten teams.
    
    And Hootsie, see what  I mean about "real" divisions. How many Big Ten
    teams are in the final four? Lemme help ya.....ZERO BABY.
    
    But half the field is ACC teams. So, lemme regurgitate for ya: ROOT FOR
    A REAL DIVISION LIKE THE BIG EAST OR THE ACC AND FORGET THE LITTLE TEN.
    
    JOJ

    
    While I'm very happy to see Georgia Tech move on, I don't even think
    it was close MSU got jobbed. I couldn't beleive the announcers where
    even questioning whether shot was good but whether it was a 3 or 2.
    Really on the ball.
    
    What I don't understand is why they can use the clock to reset the time
    but can't use it at the end of the game? I realize that the buzzer
    rules but if the refs could have used a replay they would have heard
    as I heard the buzzer than the shot....
    
    good move by Tech to start celebrating and sway the officials....
    
    mike

    What does Coach K and Duke have with the officials?  Every year,
    they alwasy shoot at least twice as many foul shots.  
    
    In general, I noticed that 3 seconds is never called, in the Alabama
    - LMU game, I got my stopwatch out - that guy Cheatem was in the
    paint one time for 6 seconds!!  Alaa and Laetner each hit the 5
    second mark numerous times, but the worst was Larry Johnson of UNLV,
    who was in the MIDDLE of the paint for 7 full seconds without a
    call.  Really ticks me off.   
    
    In general, however, congrats to those whose teams made it.  This
    has been a very enjoyable tourney for me, so far.  I'd say UNLV
    and Tech are my favs.  
    
    JD

    Hey people ! Have you ever seen Coach K of Duke and Steve Whatshisname 
    from "Married With Children" at the same time ?

    What say we apply that infamous "32 Point Must System" to this
    year's NCAA tournament results to date and see how our favorite
    conferences are doing ???
    
    Here goes ...
    
    			First   Second   Region   Region
    			Round    Round    Semi     Final
                	-----   ------   ------   ------
    Big Ten
    =======
    Michigan State	  1	   2	   0
    Michigan		  1	   0
    Minnesota		  1	   2	   4	     0
    Illinois		  0
    Indiana		  0
    Ohio State		  1	   0
    Purdue		  1	   0
    
    Total:	13
    
    Big East
    ========
    Villanova		  0
    Providence		  0
    Georgetown		  1	   0
    St. John's		  1	   0
    Syracuse		  1	   2	   0
    Connecticut		  1	   2	   4	     0
    
    Total:	12
    
    ACC
    ===
    Duke		  1	   2	   4	     8
    Georgia Tech	  1	   2	   4	     8
    North Carolina	  1	   2	   0
    Clemson		  1	   2	   0
    Virginia		  1	   0
    
    Total:	37
    
    So, after the Regions have been completed, the Big Ten is toast
    with a whopping 13 points for a tournament record 7 teams and the
    Big East placed 6 teams and racked up a huge 12 points before
    folding its doors.
    
    While the poor, down-trodden, little ACC which landed only 5
    teams, none seeded higher than #3, checks in with *37* points with
    the Final Four yet to be played.  *If* Duke and Tech advance to the
    championship game, the ACC will finish with the title and 64 more
    points for a gargantuan total of 101 points.
    
    Read 'em and weep, boys ...
    
    It's a proud year for the ACC ...
    
    Bob Hunt
    

    Re:.478 ACC Chris
    
    >Congrats to the ACC for an outstanding NCAA tourney showing.  We had
    >1/4 of the Sweet 16 and now have fully 50% of the Final 4.  It's been
    >awhile since we pulled this off (Virginia & UNC the last to do it in
    >'81 I think?).
    
    Did you congratulate the Big Ten when they did that last year :)
    
    In any case, it proved to be a good year for the ACC.  They peaked just
    the right moment.
    
    Charles

    >The ACC once again proved that real basketball is played in the East.
    >And, the Big Ten Bigots can thank Minnesota for preventing the 
    >perennial early exit by all Big Ten teams.
    
    Perennial?  What about just last year?  Huh, short term memory?
    
    And what about the Big East huh?  
    
    Charles

    
    JoJ,
    Are you trying to lose all credibility here? The BIG-10 was 2-0 vs.
    the Big East in the tourny. The BIG-10 had a lock for a final 4 spot
    if not for counting shots that were obviously taken after the game was
    over. 
    
                                                   HOOT
    

    Big Ten perenially in the Final Four ???
    
    Repeat after me ...
    
    1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1988, 1990
    
    Seven out of the last 10 years have seen exactly *ZERO* teams from
    the Big Ten represented in the Final Four.
    
    1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1990
    
    Eight out of the last 10 years have seen exactly *TEN* different
    squads from the ACC pay a visit to the Final Four.
    
    Offhand, I'd say the word "perennial" ought to be used by ACC fans
    as opposed to Big Ten followers.
    
    Bob Hunt

    
    ******REASON #1,234,234,345,346,568,678,980,457,885************
     ******TO HATE THE STARHEELS************************
    
    This year after suffering their first double digit losses
    season in a long time they published a newletter listing
    every other ACC team to have had double digit loosing seasons...
    
    mike

    re; Bob Hunt
    
    Thanks for the support. The Big Ten is truly overrated.
    
    JoJ

    CONGRATS TO CLEMSON FOR LENDING THEIR REFS TO GEORGIA TECH!!!
    
    SHOTS AFTER THE CLOCK!!!!
    
    35-11 IN FREE THROWS!!!!!!
    
    CLEMSON LOSES IN TOURNEY BUT LEAVES ITS REFS TO HELP ACC TEAMS!!!!!!!
    
    NOT FAIR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    DON'T BLAM ME - I'M SHOUTING ON PORPOISE!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    (LEARNED THIS IN NJ DEVILS NOTE!!!!!!!!)
    
    nazz

    Mike,
    
    What's this newsletter you're talking 'bout?  I thought I subscribed to
    'em all. 
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    
    BTW - Feel free to include the order info stuff.  ;^)
    

I know one double-digit in losses year that State had:

	1983.

TTom

    
    Don't know Chris, it was just a quick blurp I caught in TSN 3/19
    edition. Where TSN does it's college basketball rundown by geographical
    areas of the country.
    
    mike

    He ACC_Chris....just wanted to let you know that I'm attending the
    Final Four in Denver this weekend with the Duke Jihad. I'll be there
    rootin' for an all ACC champeenship game.
    
    Watch for me on TV, I'll be wearing a white Seton Hall sweatshirt.
    
    JoJ

    Be careful, JoJ.  Your notecount is rising.........
    
    :-)
    
    H�wk

    I don't care if my notecount is rising...the notecounters can stick up
    their respective butts. 
    
    Are the NoteKGB still around?
    
    JoJ

    Good deal JoJ.  I'm not thoroughly optimistic though.  UNLV will be a
    tough nut for Tech to crack, but as they've proven all year, when
    you've got Kenny Anderson running the show anything's possible.  Duke
    stands a reasonable chance against Arkansas.  Game will probably be
    decided in the last 2 minutes.  My heart will be with Duke but my mind
    says Razorbacks.  Reason?  Arkansas *could* blow out Duke.  Duke cannot
    blow out Arkansas.  If it's not a blowout it's a coin flip, just like
    this whole NCAA tournament.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    
    Arkansas has the athletes to give Duke fits. Speed advantage Razor
    backs, size advantage Duke. Todd Day is due to bust a big one I
    like the Razorbacks here. Only fear is Duke as pernially ref's
    favorite. Can't wait to see Alaa and Ollie Miller go at in down
    low....
    
    Tech's hole in the middle hasn't hurt them yet. If they can check
    UNLV's perimeter game I like their chances. Anderson if he declared
    pro right now would be the number 1 pick and Scott reminds me of
    Rice last year. I like Tech in close one....
    
    mike
    
    

    If Ball State can keep UNLV in check, so can Georgia Tech.
    
    I'm looking for an all ACC champeenship game. I figure Duke to win by 5
    and for Tech to win by 2.
    
    And if it doesn't work out that way, I'll root for whoever UNLV is
    playing.
    
    JoJ

    One interesting thing about the Final Four- Tech has played three teams
    rated in the Top Twenty in the last poll in the tournament, Duke has
    played one (UConn) and UNLV and Arkansas nada. Tech clearly has had the
    most difficult road to the Final Four. It will be interesting to see if
    that will help or hurt their chances. One thing that should help is a
    week for Oliver to rest his bad ankle. It has really slowed him down in
    the tournament. Anderson gets better every game.
    
    I look for Arkansas to beat Duke, but would LOVE to see an all-ACC
    final (and a repeat of the ACC semifinal game!!).
    
    GT Chris
    

    Comments
    --------
    
    -Hurley looked terrible against UConn, is he on the take? ;^) He MUST
     play an outstanding game for Duke to beat Arkansas.
    -UNLV vs Tech could be one of the best games ever. Winner should take 
     it all.
    -Look for Brian Oliver to do the Senior leadership thing and be a major
     factor on Saturday. UNLV plays his kind of game. Final score will be
     in the 110 each area.
    -If Tech wins it all, Anderson will probably go hardship this year
     since there would be nowhere to go but down from there. If not, he'll 
     be back.
    -Scott is gone no matter what happens. :^(
    -This has been an AWESOME tournament for basketball fans, ACC fans, and 
     GT fans (Heart don't fail me now!)
    
    Chris

    UNLV will beat the Hogs for the title ..... bank on it.
    
    DrM- Who will win his pool if Tech beats UNLV or if UNLV wins it
    all ....

    
    Duke will handle Arkansas with relative ease by controlling the tempo.
    
    UNLV will beat Georgia Tech in a close (but not last-minute) game.
    
    
    glenn

    RE:Duke handling Arkansas
    
    
    No way.Puke(tm) doesn't have the horses to handle Arkansas' running
    game.This team has choked the last two years in the final four(i.e. SHU
    and Kansas).And don't give me that bull about "well at least they got
    there",if you don't win the thing then there is no reason to be
    happy(unless of course you're the Huskies!!)Arkansas will win because
    Hurley is too inexperienced at point guard and Mayberry will have his
    lunch............
    
    
    
    Many smileys,
    O_J

    Re Anderson #1 pick
    
    
    No way he's young needs help on DEFENSE and is not mentally mature to
    be in the NBA.I'd wait till my junior year if I were him.The # 1 pick
    would be either Coleman or Simmons(maybe Kimble)
    
    
    
    
    P.S. No way `Tech beats UNLV,Johnson will be just too tough for anybody
    `Tech can muster!!UNLV has the best starting line-up in College Bball.
    
    
    
    Now I'm done,
    O_J

    .509�    `Tech can muster!!UNLV has the best starting line-up in College Bball.
    
    	How about the CBA?
    
    B.A.

    
    Hey O_J, UNLV may indeed have the best starting five left in the
    tournment but and I'll make this simple anything can happen. Look
    at your beloved Orangemen, definately the best starting five in the
    Big East and what was that worth to them? 
    
    I guess you really don't understand game too well if you think Anderson
    shouldn't be the #1 pick the minute he declares. Magic Johnson doesn't
    exactly strike fear into the opposistion with his defense but
    offensively, he enough to make a guy head for the ole toliet bowl and
    call for RALPH. Maturity would be a question mark but I haven't seen
    the kid act like a child in games I've watched....
    
    Now if we talk Derrick Coleman we easily can see a man acting like a
    child....
    
    mike

    re- Anderson
    
    Let's put it this way-- Dennis Scott won TSN's Player of the Year in
    the US-- and he's only the second best player on Tech's team.
    
    Chris

    The only thing wrong with Kenny Anderson is that he didn't go to
    Carolina.  On the postive side though, at least we don't have to worry
    about him jumping ship into NBA-land at any given moment, leaving us
    high and dry. 
    
    Enjoy it now Techies,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

  
  �  On the postive side though, at least we don't have to worry
  �  about him jumping ship into NBA-land at any given moment, leaving us
  �  high and dry. 
   
    I thought in "The Land Of Dean", this sort of situation would be
    explained as ...
    
    Dean Smith advises all his youngsters regarding the "right" time
    to apply for the NBA draft.   He has their best career interests
    in mind and sacrifices his team goals so that the player can
    maximize his NBA earnings.  Both Michael Jordan and James Worthy
    were advised by Coach Smith that leaving the program early was in
    their own best interests.  This only serves to further illustrate
    the care and devotion that Coach Smith affords to his players and
    why they love him so.   {Cue the violins ...}
    
    Or some such other marshmallow fluff ...
    
    Bob Hunt

    re: .514
    
    That's all true Bob.  (Are you legitimately skeptical, or just tryin'
    to bust me chops?)  But it still leaves the team in a talent shortfall
    until that player can be replaced.  In the case of Tech (coulda been
    Carolina) Cremins obviously has a difficult time right now going out
    and recruiting a point guard.  Who the heck's gonna wanna play behind
    Anderson, specially when Ken is getting practically 40 minutes of PT
    per game.  If he jumps to the NBA the cupboard is *bare*.
    
    This is one of those cases where, depending on how you look at it,
    signing the top-notch studs can be a disadvantage.  If the player goes
    to the NBA you're stuck until you can go out and hire a replacement.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

BOB --

GREAT p-name...simply superb...

>Would look good in Green!!
>    re- Anderson

Aggghhhh!  Perish the thought!!

Let him caddy for Magic for a few years to learn how the game should be
played.  Then he can get the opportunity to pass to James on the swoop.

Dan

    
    Dan, the kid doesn't need to caddy for anyone he's ready. And if
    we can't have him I'd prefer to see him hit Michael or Scottie on
    the swoop....
    
    mike

 >   Dan, the kid doesn't need to caddy for anyone he's ready. And if

Didn't claim he needed it.  Just that he'd benefit greatly from it, and
so would I.

Dan 

    
    What bennies? Oh yeah I know he can teach him how to charge with that
    whinny look on his face so the ref always calls the defender. Maybe
    palming? Traveling?....
    
    mike 

>    What bennies? Oh yeah I know he can teach him how to charge with that
>    whinny look on his face so the ref always calls the defender. Maybe
>    palming? Traveling?....

WINNING?

Dan

�WINNING?

Dan, I'm surprised at you, literary man that you are...  You forgot
the "H", second letter in.....and knock one "N" out while yer at it....

HTH,
'Saw

    
    
    Mike,chill out.No Anderson would not IMO be the #1 pick if he came out
    early.He's not yet mature enough to handle life at 19 in the NBA.Magic
    was the #1 pick mainly because of his personality.In the draft he came
    out of Sidney Moncreif was considered the best player coming out.But
    the Lackers ownership took a cahnce which paid of.
    
    
    
    And on the Motown Masher you're just jealous because he Scortched you
    and your mighty Hoyas twice this year.Coleman should go #1 this year.I
    don't see why not.He does it all,he can pass occasionally hit the three
    blocks shots and is the GREATEST REBOUNDER in modern
    basketball.No,Coleman a'int no crybaby;in fact he's a man among
    boys!!!!!
    
    
    
    
    P.S. Gee how's `The Great' Alonzo Mourning doing these days........
    
    
    
    
    Hope that helped
        O_J
    
    
    
    
    O_J

    I got my SI yesterday and was thrilled to see none other than UNLV on
    the cover!! Add to that the fact that virtually everyone in this
    notesfile and in the office is picking UNLV, and Tech should be a
    lock!!
    
    FWIW, here's the seeds that each team beat in the tourney to date:
    
    Duke 1,6,7,14
    Tech 1,5,6,13
    UNLV 8,11,12,16
    Ark. 8,10,12,13
    
    The ACCteams clearly earned their way to the FF, where UNLV and Ark.
    have yet to face a major challenge. Let's hope that means a 16-4 ACC
    record!
    
    re- Anderson, he is a VERY mature 19. Watch his style of play and
    listen to his interviews. I believe he will stay one more year and then
    go pro, probably as the #1 pick. I would LOVE to see him stay three
    more years, but that's not realistic.
    
    BTW, Scott broke the season scoring record in the ACC which was held by
    _____ from Wake Forest in the early 60s. Anderson had the second
    highest assist total in ACC history, behind Tech's Craig Neal.
    
    Chris

    Slight tangent:
    
    SI sent out a special issue with its 35 years of covers.  Leigh
    Montville did a piece on the infamous SI jinx.  This was far, far
    more prevalent in the early years of the magazine than today.  Because
    of the lead times involved in those less-technologically advanced
    times, covers had to be planned weeks in advance and very often
    didn't match the actual news when the magazine was printed.  For
    example, the cover of a SI in 1957 was about the Oklahoma football
    team which was in the midst of its 47 (or so) game winning streak.
    The cover said "Oklahoma is Unbeatable" but it came out either just
    before or just after Notre Dame upset them to end the winning streak.
    
    If you look at early SI covers, they had a lot of stories on animals
    (dog shows, horses, etc) because they were "safe" covers not subject
    to the whims of wins and losses.
        
    I don't think the SI jinx exists anymore.
    
    John
    

The SI jinx still exists at least as a point of interest and discussion.
As recently as the Super Bowl, Denver was on the cover, not SF. Of
course, Denver didn't exactly play a jinxless game.

One cover that I remember was the regional cover last year during the
NCAAs. Chris Corchianni was on the cover the issue before losing to
Georgetown. 

TTom

Last year, SI put the Lakers on the cover after they swept through the western
conference playoffs to enter the finals.  Within several days, Byron Scott and
Magic Johnson were in street clothes with severe hamstring injuries.  I always
hate when SI puts my team on the cover  -- unless it's after they've actually
won something.

Laker_Ken

�< Note 25.528 by CUPTAY::TESSIER "Who's on first? Bill Buckner!" >
                                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I've heard the Red Sox had to hire six body guard to surround him 
during the games, cause they're afraid some fool with a rifle will
try to kill him.  I don't know what they're worried about since
the shot would probably go through his legs anyway....

Now:

�Last year, SI put the Lakers on the cover after they swept through the western
�conference playoffs to enter the finals.  Within several days, Byron Scott and
�Magic Johnson were in street clothes with severe hamstring injuries.  I always
�hate when SI puts my team on the cover  -- unless it's after they've actually
�won something.

1986-87.  Issue one week prior to the Super Bowl:  LT on cover

Giants win the bowl...

One instance where it didn't work....(thank God!!!!)

'Saw

    
    Dan could you extrapolated on Mr. Tessier's statement for me...
    
    ;^)
    
    

�    Dan could you extrapolated on Mr. Tessier's statement for me...
    
Clearly, Dan is not up to a Dan Diatribe(tm) today....    
    

� Bill Buckner!" >
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
� I've heard the Red Sox had to hire six body guard to surround him 
� during the games, cause they're afraid some fool with a rifle will
� try to kill him.  I don't know what they're worried about since
� the shot would probably go through his legs anyway....

	RoLliN` sAW!

Mike JN

    Re: Lakers on SI
    
    They should've put them there after they swept through the Conference
    SEMI-FINALS! ;-)
    
    Mike

   
     Hot off the press.
     Dennis Scott as expected announced that he will be available for
     next years pro draft.  UNEXPECTEDLY Kenny Anderson also announced
     that he will be giving up is his last 3 years of school to do the
     same.
    
     In related news Eric Montross announced(a la SHAWN KEMP) that he
     too will be eligible for the NBA draft.  A shocked Dean Smith had
     no comment.

    ACChris, any word whether Montross is going pro?
    IMHO it would be a large error in judgement on his part, where
    else would he learn how to handle Excellent Losses(tm)? 8^
    			Rich
    

    Yup, he's going Rich.  And Jim Valvano just got a 10 year contract
    extension.  ;^) ;^)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    Anybody know the ACC's record of Final Four appearances vs.
    Championships?
    
    Just wondering.
    
    NAZZ

    Well NAZZ, we know Duke is 0-8, and Georgia TEch is 0-1.
    We know under Dean UNC is 1-10 or sumthing. ;-)
    
    JD

> 4159::NAZZARO "Thanks Minutemen, for a GREAT year!!"  
    
    Anybody know the Minuteman record of Final Four appearances vs.
    Championships?
    
    Just wondering.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    	Hey Chris, how many NCAA violations did the A10 make versus
    the ACC????  Just wunnerin' 8^)
    
    sean

I think I recall Packer saying during the telecast that the ACC has sent a
grand total of 24 squads to the Final Four and they've come up with a total
of 4 championships.

The four titles are ... 1957 Carolina, 1974 State, 1982 Carolina, 1983 State

Admittedly, the conference has come up short far more often than not.  Of 
course, both this year and 1981 saw 2 teams from the conference in the Final
Four so at least one loss had to be expected.

Bob Hunt

    I never knew that ... and when you consider that 3 of those 4 titles
    could have gone the other way (the 57 NC team needed 2OT's to hold
    off Kansas, the 82 Carolina team got a big break from Freddie Brown,
    and Guy Lewis handed the 83 title to NC State on a platter ...),
    the ACC could have had 23 "excellent losses" (tm) in 24 tries ....

    So, Doc 12am, how many times did Houston win the championship?
    
    The only one I remember was the embarrassing defeat that the over
    rated Phi Slamma Jamma's suffered at the hands of NC State.
    
    JoJ

    The Minutemen never have any excellent losses because we never come
    close to qualifying for anything.
    
    So there.
    
    John

Excellent losses...sheesh.

I think we should start calling things around here properly.
In keeping with my Ted Theodore Preston frame of mind today, 
we will henceforth and forward from this moment on I get
no kick from champagne, call a win a

		Totally Triumphant VictoryDude (tm)

and a loss (whether excellent or not) shall be called a
	
		Totally Bogus and Heinous Defeat...


[air guitar thingie]

So there!

'saw

Actually all 4 titles were close. In 74, when David Thompson led State
they had to go to OT to beat Bill Walton and UCLA in the semis. The
finals, against McGuire and Marquette, wasn't much of a game.

But for the record, Duke needs to win 1 to at least get to a bad record
in the Final 4. The earlier losses (long ago to UCLA and Kentucky) were
one thing. They lost to big favorites. But against Louisville and at
least going into the UNLV game, they had a chance and didn't get it done.

TTom

    re .548
    
    No /Don, unlike some noters, I don't b.s. the UH loss was FAR from
    excellent. It was a f---ing nightmare.
    
    The UH/NC Skate game should have been like the UNLV/Duke blowout.
    There is no way in hell that NC State should have won (although
    I was one of the few who felt that NCS might have a chance, due
    to their fantastic outside shooting), and UH rallied in the second
    half. They turned a 7 point deficit into a 7 point lead, and had
    the 'Pack reeling. 
    
    Then Guy Lewis (the Boeheim of the SWC) started 'coaching'.
    
    As one sportswriter said, "Guy Lewis slept for 35 minutes, woke
    up, and thought he was Dean Smith."
    
    And we didn't even get an Excellent Loss for it either ....
    
    WAAAAHHHHHHH !!!!!!!!!!!!! :-(
    
    Doc

    Actually the Minutemen have had 4 excellent losses during the seventies
    and eighties:
    
    1.  Florida A&M 35, UMass 28 in the 1978 Pioneer Bowl for the National
    Championship of 1-AA football.  The score wasn't as close as it
    looked as the Minutemen scored a TD as time expired.
    
    2.  Temple 53, UMass 51 in the finals of this year's Atlantic 10
    basketball tournament.           
    
    3.  West Virginia 1, UMass 0 in the finals of the 1988 Atlantic
    10 baseball tournament.
    
    4.  North Carolina 1, UMass 0 in the finals of the 1987 women's
    soccer National Championship, played in Amherst, on a freezing cold
    Sunday, with the only Tar Heel goal coming as the UMass goalie slipped
    on the frozen turf.  This is why I'm an anti-Heel.
    
    We have lots fewer excellent losses than most schools.  So there.
    
    John

    Hey, it weren't our fault your goalie slipped.  Anyways you shoulda had
    the edge with the icy field.
    
    BTW - As John is aware, the UNC soccer team has won over 90 games in a
    row.  A few of these (6 or 7) have even been excellent!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    
    chris,
    
    
    where i work my 2nd  job at hanscom field one of the guys in the
    office has a daughter who played or still does on the UNC  soccor
    team... guanotta or something like that is the name, i will get
    
    the true spelling tonight.. 
    
    dinz
    

    > .... i will get the true spelling tonight...
    
    Yeah, DinZ, but will you be able to type it in correctly tomorrow?
    
    :-)
    
    H�wk

Dinz...

YOu ain't moonlightin' as one of them fighter pilots are ya?

'Saw

    If his daughter plays soccer at Chapel Hill rest assured she's got some
    purty fancy feet!  You can also be confident that she hasn't
    experienced the agony of defeat very much.  Tar Heel ladies soccer was
    featured recently in SI as won of several "dynasties" that exist today.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    
    shes a definite  good looking gal....
    

>    Well well well I am SO pleased to see the Almost Close folk in here
>    running their hands over their latest passel of Excellent Losses.

Was this predictable or what folks?  Despite the fact that the ACC 
landed 25% of the Sweet 16 & Excellent 8 and a whopping 50% of the
Final 4 and Title Game, *and* despite that the Big 10 resumed its 
tradition of end-of-season choking, placing 2 teams in the Sweet 16,
1 in the Excellent 8, and ZERO in the Final 4, MrT *STILL* feels completely 
at ease to swagger in here and talk about Excellent Losses.  

Have you no pride man?


>    ACConfessed, you, among all, must be especially pleased with this
>    year's Sweet 16 choke job

Your definition of choke is interesting T.  See, when a team is an underdog
playing in an opponents back yard and one of its senior starters tears
his knee up a couple days before the game, it's not considered a "choke"
when you lose.  

On the other hand when you play in the (supposedly) best conference in
the land and are led by the (supposedly) greatest coach in the universe
and are coming off one the Top 3 recruiting classes in the USA and are
playing a team from the lowly Pac10 (in the 1st Round, no less) ....

And Get Beat, ....

That, my friend, is a C-H-O-K-E.  

(Glad I could be of service ...)


- ACC Chris
    

    Well gee ACC Chris,wasn't UNC in the preseason top 10??
    How did they do this year??
    
    
    Glad I could help,
    
     O_J

    Thanks Cap, for bringing up a game that happened over 20 years ago.  I
    wasn't in double digits age-wise at the time, but I assure you no one
    was accusing Dean of underachieving his way to the NCAA finals only to
    lose to a powerhouse UCLA team.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Congrats, John, for all those excellent UMass losses.  I'm glad
    I could count on you. 
    
    And you didn't even mention the excellent losses accumulated by our
    always nationally ranked men's lacrosse team (a manly game!).  Just
    last week, they lost their only game of the year in excellent fashion,
    16-15.
    
    I've got a couple of other excellent UMass losses you failed to
    mention, both in basketball (both go back a ways, too):
    
    1) The first round loss to eventual NIT champion Marquette in 1969.
    
    2) The 92-85 overtime loss to Holy Cross in the Colonial Classic in
       1978.  This one was special in that the Bulldog (Jack Leaman, our
       illustrious coach for you unitiated) took a nutty when Derek Clay-
       borne got hammered with 2 seconds left and the score tied in 
       regulation after UMass had blown a 12 point lead in the final 2 1/2
       minutes.  Holy Cross made only two field goals during their rally,
       scoring 10 free throws to one basket by the UMies.  The Crusaders
       took 30 more free throws than UMass that game.  Poor Jack nearly
       had a heart attack that game.
    
    I'm sure there are many others.  And we aspire to many more.  But the
    Heels already have more excellent losses with far greater "talent" than
    UMass could ever hope to accumulate.
    
    NAZZ

    Anybody know the latest on the Cavalier coaching situation.  Yesterday
    I heard the Stanford coach was a lock for the job and then Howie Cosell
    told me last night on his radio show that Rick Barnes had the inside
    track.  Both seem like pretty good choices to me, FWIW.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    Nazz, I should have remembered that excellent loss in the Colonial
    Classic because I was on the bench for that game.  Jim Laughnane,
    the head basketball trainer, had badly sprained his wrist the day
    before the Classic and was unable to do the taping.  I show up at
    Boston Garden to watch the game, had tickets and I was going to
    sit with my parents, introduce them to Bulldog and the players and
    so forth.  I walk into the locker room and Jim says "I'm hurt, you're
    doing the pre-game taping."  So I did that for both games of the
    Classic and for the revenge game at Holy Cross the next week when
    Eric Williams threw in a buzzer-beating prayer.
    
    It was an excellent loss and working with that basketball team was
    a real trip, considering the temparment of the coach and the head
    cases we had there.
    
    The loss to Marquette was slightly before my time though.  I was
    either in 8th grade or a freshman in high school.
    
    John

re: Coaching job at UVa.

EPSN reported that it had been offered to Rick Barnes (from Providence)
and the only catch was getting him released from his current contract.
There is no buyout clause for either party so it should be pro forma.

TTom

>    ... everybody has accepted that a
>    ACC-dominated officiating crew robbed the Big10 of a Final Four
>    appearance 

Oh most kinder and gentler Noter, Mr T. This member of "everybody" has
not accepted that ACC dominance in anyway contributed to this
controversy.

For the record, this member of "everybody" saw what most everyone else
saw on the umpteenth replay: the shot was late. 

A question about excellent losses: Was the Purdue loss better than the
Indiana loss? Is this good or bad?

TTom

    > ACC-dominated officiating crew
    
    Does anyone know what conferences the 3 refs were from?  I wasn't aware
    that *any* of the refs were from the ACC, although it is pretty well
    established that we've got the best officials in the country.
    
    (If you don't believe it, ask the coaches, and ask the NBA, which came
    knocking on the ACC's door a few years ago when it needed
    replacements.)
    
    Oh, and by the way, I notice you've toned down your "bought-em-off"
    lunacy.  A special "Thanks for small favors." comment is certainly in
    order.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

       I need some info on coach K from Duke. 

       I know he was an assistant under Bobby Knight at West Point at one
       time.

       I need to to know where he played college ball assuming he played,
       and what high school he graduated from.


Chuck

    Coach K is from the Chicago area.  He went to college at West Point
    and played for the General.  West Point does have a program where
    you can serve your duty there as a coach or whatever  (NB - it's
    also open to people who want to work there as a trainer, it was
    one of the options I considered after college but would have had
    to go into the Army as an enlisted man).  I believe that after Coach
    K's 5 year commitment was up (he did serve part of that commitment
    as an assistant coach at West Point), he went to Indiana as an
    assistant and then went to Duke from there.
    
    John

    BTW, John Feinstein, author of _A Season on the Brink_ is also a
    Duke graduate (class of '77) and got to know Coach K after the K-man
    ended up at Duke (even though Feinstein had already graduated) and
    I believe Coach K's reference was one of the reasons Knight agreed to
    the book.
    
    John

Jeff Sagarin's final conference power ratings:

	ACC		86.37
	Big 10		84.44
	Big East	84.43
	Big 8		82.82
	SEC		82.11
	PAC 10		80.10
	Big West	79.66

TTom

    	Clearly, the Big West is #1 8^)

    Oh gee,is this theJeff Sagarin who had Oklahoma ranked at #2 at the end of
    the year??
    
    
    
                                  O_J

This is the same Jeff Sagarin that Mr T so blatantly triumphed in this
topic (see .113) and about other college basketball topics.

TTom

    Rick Barnes makes Larry Brown look stable!  If he gets the Virginia
    job, I think it'll be his fifth job in six years!
    
    NAZZ

    Classic TTom!  Comments MrT???
    
    Heh heh!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111
    
    
    - ACC Chris

Nazz,

I liked the RAVELIN man idea, also.

TTom

    You guys sure read fast!  ;-)
    
    NAZZ

    T would *NEVER*  admit to anything like that!!!!
    
    
    
    O_J
    

    re: O_J
    
    Sounds like he already did juice. 
    
    
    re: ACC officials
    
    Can anyone confirm that there were 2 ACC officials working the MSU vs.
    Georgia Tech game? 
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    Why can't you answer the question,T???  
    
    
    
    O_J
    
    
    
    
                                     

   � What are you getting at, exackally?  I ain't gonna answer one of
   � these carefully crafted vague queries of yours.  In light of your
   � well-documented sneaky behavior over the last few months certainly
   � you cain understand my caution on this.
    
    A simple yes or no question, nothing vague about it ...
    
    Do you acknowledge the validity of Jeff Sagarin's most recent
    listing of college basketball conference power ratings ???   Is
    Sagarin's list valid ???  If so, fine.  If not, fine.   If you
    choose to dispute his listing, however, then please tell us why
    you felt compelled to post an earlier one of his listings in reply
    .113 ...
    
   � I got burned bad [sic] when I bellied up to the bar one the 80s
   � question 6 months ago.  Ain't gonna get jobbed again.
    
    The crushing grip of reason got you.  Not to mention the "Great
    Big Ten Whitewash Of 1982-1986" where *none* of the Big Ten teams
    made it to the final dance.
    
    Bob Hunt

    Okay, lemme spell it out for ya, big guy.  (We all know you git it, but
    this will help frame your embarassment.  Hah!)
    
    In note 25.113, back in January (when the Big10 was riding high) you
    posted ratings from a Mr. Jeff Sagarin who, as you so thoughtfully
    pointed out, is highly credible, so much so that his power ratings are
    used by the NCAA selection committee.
    
    Mr. TTom just posted Sagarin's end-of-season ratings, showing the ACC
    to clearly have finished in the numero uno position.
    
    So.  Given your initial endorsement of Mr. Sagarin, (when the B10 was
    on top) are you now willing to state that the ACC was the #1
    conference?
    
    (Do you have a choice?)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    I wouldn't be surprised if there was at least one ACC official working
    the game.  Unlike some other conferences, the ACC doesn't have its
    own officials working its games exclusively.  Most of the officials
    who work ACC games also officiate in the Big East, Atlantic 10,
    ECAC and other Eastern conferences throughout the season.  So, there
    was probably an official who'd worked several ACC games, but not
    exclusively for the ACC.
    
    John

    25.593 should be extracted and placed in the SPORTS HoF.  The category? 
    ONotY, of course.
    
    FYI, ONotY == Obfuscation Note of the Year
    
    
    - ACC Chris

>As we've seen it's ACCaught and Dan who're left obdurately facing down
>unfavorable data.  Not me.  

>Now ain't that a_ironic hoot for ya?

Now we've got Obdurate Dan and Ironic Hoot into the fray.

TTom

    
    Hey, wait a minute here. I aint ironic. I have an iron, though.
    
    
    The question at hand wasn't directed at me but since I've been dragged
    into the fray...
    
    Due to the fact that Sagarin hoisted the ACC over the BIG-10, and
    others, on the basis of the NCAA tournament, and to the fact that MSU
    was severely hosed in favor of Georgia Tech with two ACC officials (yes
    Chris this is true, the other guy was from New York, I reported this
    fact after the hosing, they introduced the officials before the game
    and it struck me as odd at the time that MSU had to play in the south,
    against an ACC team, with ACC officials in what is supposed to be a
    neutral site and MSU was the #1 seed) working the game, that game had
    allot to do with the ACC's ascent and those rankings are quite
    misleading and deserve a giant *.
    
    Was the ACC better than the BIG-10 this year?
    
                    Absolutely not!
    
                                                   HOOT
     

   � No, I got burned.  Especially by you, who's spent the intervening
   � months fostering the false impression that I don't accepts
   � unfavorable facts even if established.  
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    And just what exactly is an "unfavorable fact", O Most Lordly
    Objective One ???    
    
    And how does it differ in objectivity from a "favorable fact" ???   
    
    How can a "fact" have favor and still be a "fact" ???
                                                             
    I think you oughtta trademark that sucker real quick, T.  In fact,
    maybe you ought to *patent* it instead since "inventions" are your
    particular specialty.
    
    Bob Hunt

    I doubt it.

    No, to me a fact is a fact is a fact.  Reagan might have had
    lots of trouble with them but they are supposed to stand on their
    own with no help from "favors" either way.
                  
    As in ...
    
    "The fact of overall NCAA tournament winning percentage clearly
    shows that Coach X's teams have won a higher percentage of total
    tournament games than Coach Y's teams have."
    
    End of fact.  End of story.   No favors, no fools.   You don't
    like it, then win more games.
    
    Just the facts ...
    
    Bob Hunt

Rick Barnes announced that he is going to stay with Providence and not
take the Virginia job as head basketball coach. Providence said
that they expected Barnes to fulfill the 2 years remainingo on his
current contract.

Meanwhile 2 other candidates withdrew: Bruce Parkhill of Penn St and Mike
Montgomery of Stanford.

This can't be helping the Cavs recruiting.

TTom

    First off, it's 29::19, not 30::19.  Then there's the 3 for 1 thing.  I
    hope everyone realizes that if ONE SINGLE GAME had been different, it'd
    be 2 for 2.  In comparing men who have been coaching for a combined
    48 years, can ONE SINGLE GAME define the difference between greatness
    and goodness???  [no]
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

   >> Imagine what a screw job it was for State and the Big10 this time
   >> around.  Not long ago they keep extending the game until the homeboys
   >> cain finally "win" over State in Kemper.  This year, they send the
   >> Big10 champs and the team generally regarded as the conference's best 
   >> NOT to Indianapolis but to a naval port o' call smack in the heart
   >> of ACCountry to play a game against a_ACC team officiated by ACC refs...
   
New Orleans is *NOT* smack in the heart of ACC country.  No ACC team hails 
from New Orleans.  No ACC team hails from the entire state of Louisiana.
You'd have to drive all the way through Mississippi and Alabama and a good bit
of Georgia before you get to the nearest ACC city, namely Atlanta.

New Orleans is SEC country and whatever conference UNO is in.

Boy, we really *DO* have a problem in this country with our understanding of 
geography.

Bob Hunt

    The poor Big 10.  (Sniff, sniff.)  Robbed again.  (Whaaaa!)  I feel so
    (pout) *bad* about it!!  (WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!)
    
    
    - ACC Chris

re: .605

NO, I don't agree with agree about a big bold asterisk.

But I am confused. T, are you saying that every loss for the Big 10 this
year in the NCAAs was because of ACC dominance? I know of at least one of
them for which this is not true: the Loyola Marymount Massacre and Minced
Meat Mauling of Michigan. The real cause of that loss is yourself. They
were all fired up about all of your comments about the Jesuits, etc. They
got mad as hell at you and said they weren't going to take it anymore.

Now that leaves Ohio St, Indiana, Illinois, and Purdue. I assume that you
feel that Minnesota should also get an asterisk for losing to Ga Tech.
When they saw the outcome of the Moo U game, they obviously layed down
and folded just like you would have us believe the Spartans did in OT. 

TTom

    I contest your comment that the B10 was in a "down" year and the ACC
    in an "up" year.  We lost 3 players to the NBA lottery last year. 
    Everybody (including myself) was predicting a down year.  
    
    The Big10 on the other hand looked strong.  Michigan was loaded,
    Illinois strong, IU a Top 15 team, Iowa came out strong before losing
    all their players, Ohio State landed one of the Top 5 phenoms who
    panned out as expected, and this list doesn't include the 2 teams who
    ended up leading the league!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    
    

    Speaking of next year, perhaps it's worth considering what the ACC will
    look like.
    
    Duke should be the league favorite.  They're losing some hefty talent,
    but have alot returning.  Losing Abdelnaby won't make a dent.  They've
    got a couple of 6-10 HS All-America types on the bench who should fill
    in nicely.  As long as Hurley progresses they'll be in Top 10 shape,
    specially with phenom Grant Hill moving in next year.
    
    Georgia Tech will be extremely good as long as Anderson stays. 
    Assuming Scott leaves (if he stays they'll be Top 5 in the USA, but I
    doubt he will) Tech will transform from a perimeter team to an inside
    team.  They get Auburn transfer Matt Geiger next year and have some
    very nice talent inside.  
    
    UNC will be interesting to watch with 3 seniors and 11 freshmen and
    sophomores.  The team of the future in not only the ACC but the USA.
    Next year will see some of the most ferocious PT fights ever at
    Carolina.  Watch out 2nd semester ...
    
    Clemson loses alot but should be strong, but not as good as this year. 
    Campbell and Cash are gone.  They've got some good talent moving in
    and Davis should be back.
    
    Wake Forest will have talent and be a year into Dave Odom's tenure. 
    I'd look for them to make some decent strides from last year.  They've
    put together another excellent recruiting season.  Could finish in the
    top half of the ACC.
    
    Virginia has good talent returning and a good recruiting class coming
    in.  Question will be how do they mold with their new coach?  Also
    they're putting themselves in jeopardy for next years recruiting by not
    having a coach.  Unless they get one soon next years recruiting could
    be a washout.
    
    Maryland and State, ....  Things could really bottom out quick here.
    Both schools under NCAA penalty.  Both schools with big-time players
    threatening to quit.  It's hard to predict how bad State will be 
    next year.  Then again, if they only lose a player or 2, they could be
    okay.  Same thing with Maryland.  In either case you've gotta put them
    at the bottom.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

State could have a problem fielding a team next year. D'Amico and Howard
were seniors. Corchianni, for sure, and Monroe, Gugliatto, Feggins and
Thompson are threatening to leave when (not if) Valvano leaves. I have no
idea if Avie Lester will come back (he has 1 more year left). That takes
care of the 1st 8 players from this year.

TTom

    As an RON to this lively debate,I thought it would be interesting to
    see what has been the top conference in reaching the final 4 since the
    NCAA became an open tournament. I used 1974-5 as the first
    season,because that was the inital time that multiple teams from a
    conference were allowed.
    
    Here are the conferences that have had more than 3 of their members
    make a final 4 during this period.
    
    Name      Appearances    Titles  Runnerups    Teams
    --------------------------------------------------------
    Big 10      9             5        1          In(3),Mi(2),MS,Il,Ia,Pu
    ACC        11             2        4          Du(5),NC(2),Va(2),NCS,GT    
    Big East    9             2        4          GT(3),SY(2),SJ,Vil,Pro,SH
    SEC         7             1        1          Ky(3),LSU(2),Aub,Ga
    
    Some of the conferences that were  mainly 1-team dominated were 
    the Pac10(UCLA),Big West (UNLV),Metro (Louisville).
    
    A couple of intersting facts:
    
    The ACC is the only conference that has had each of its members make
    the sweet 16.
    Georgetown has never had a team without Pat Ewing make it.
    When Big 10 teams make the final 4 they almost always win it. 
    Only in 1980 when Purdue lost to UCLA and Iowa to Louisville 
    have they lost to an outside team. I am certain the ACC has a 
    comfortable lead in sweet 16 appearances.
    
    My conclusion: The ACC is a better balanced league,but the Big 10's
    best  are more often good enough to win it all than the ACC's.
    The Big East is the most snake-bit with three one point losses
    in the final game. 
    
    It makes for interesting debates.

    Before Dr M objects: One team conferences I left out the SWC that had 
    Houston(3) and Arkansas (2) dominate.

    Thanks Dave.  Interesting stuff, but I think you've got an error.  UNC
    has had 3 Final 4 appearances since 74-75, not 2.  We were in the
    Finals in '77 (lost to Marquette in Title game), '81 (lost to IU in
    Title game) and '82 (Title).
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    You're right Chris,I was scribbling stuff on paper real quick and I 
    messed up. BTW,who was the other final 4 team in 1982?
    
    NC beat Houston and Georgetown. Who did the Hoyas beat? Louisville
    I think 46-43 or something like that.
    
    
    Revised results:
    Name      Appearances    Titles  Runnerups    Teams
    --------------------------------------------------------
    Big 10      9             5        1          In(3),Mi(2),MS,Il,Ia,Pu
    ACC        11             2        5            Du(5),NC(3),Va(2),NCS,GT    
    Big East    9             2        4          GT(3),SY(2),SJ,Vil,Pro,SH
    SEC         7             1        1          Ky(3),LSU(2),Aub,Ga
    
    Record in finals against other conferences: Big 10 4-0,ACC 2-5,Big East 1-3
    

    1982 Final Four in New Orleans was ...
    
    North Carolina over Houston
    Georgetown over Louisville
    
    North Carolina over Georgetown
    
    Bob Hunt

Wolfpackgate (tm) update:

Jim Valvano was officially fired as head coach for NC State. A financial
arrangment was agreed upon by Valvano's attorney and the Board of
Trustees. Basically the terms were for State to pay Valvano the rest of
this year's salary and 2 full years' salaries, a little more than 1/4
million.

TTom

    Dave, Georgetown beat UH for the title in 84 ....

    Having completed my 25th year of watching ACC basketball(yes I am
    getting old),I tried to compile an all-ACC team of the last 25
    years,trying to emphasize what the players accomplished while in
    college,and not necessarily how they did as pros.
    
    The envelope please ....
    
    
    1st Team
    
    PG   Phil Ford,UNC (1974-8) --   Not a great pro career,but noone better at 
    the 4-corners,renamed the "Ford corners"
    SG   Charlie Scott,  UNC (67-70) -- The first black to play at UNC,he
    had a great pro career,led UNC to the finals as a sophomore and won the 
    Eastern regional on a buzzer beater as a junior.
    C    Ralph Sampson, UVA(79-83)-- Underacheived as a collegian and a
    pro,but was still the most dominant ACC center. 
    PF - James Worthy - NC (80-83) - A very tough pick,he had an injury
    marred college career,but was the best at his posiiton.
    SF -  David Thompson _ NC State(72-75) -- The best player while in the
    ACC that I've seen. Jordan has far eclipsed him as a pro,but anyone
    who saw Thompson play in college will never forget him.
    
    SF - Michael Jordan - UNC (82-85) - Need we say more,couldn't leave him
    off the first team,could replace Ford or Scott with him.  
    
    Second team 
    
    PG John Lucas,Maryland (72-76)
    SG Jeff Lamp, UVA (77-81)
    C  Sam Perkins,UNC (81-85)
    PF Danny Ferry, Duke (85-89)
    PF Buck Williams ,Maryland (78-81)
    SF Len Bias , Maryland (82-86)
    
    
    
    Almost made it - Tree Rollins,Clemson;Tom Burleson NCST; Dennis Scott
    GT; John Roche USC; Tom McMillen UM; Len Elmore, UM; Johnny Dawkins,
    Duke; Mike Gminski,Duke; Larry Miller, UNC ; Mitch Kupchak, UNC; Bobby
    Jones, UNC; 
    
    I'm sure I've missed many as Mr. Hunt and Mr. Knorr will likely remind
    me.
    
    
    

Duke	Jeff Mullins
	Gene Banks

UNC	Mike O'Koren
	Brad Daugherty
	Kenny Smith

Ga Tech	Kenny Anderson (current)
	Mark Price

VA	Wally Walker

NCSU	Hawkeye Whitney

WF	Rod Elkins (led league in both scoring and rebounding)

Clemson	Dale Davis (Current)

    Tom Hammonds and John Salley.
    
    Chris

>    ... and you see a_ill wind blowing ...

Or in Mr T'scase, a_ill wind passing.

TTom

Sir, I in no way meant any offense to you, personally. I thought I was
replying in kind to your Note. I was referring to several points about
which I would be glad to elaborate to continue this discussion:

1. Lefty does not coach in the ACC. Did you know that? Oh.

2. Your comments are obvious in their opinions concerning Jim Valvano but
your details are unsubstantiated. Please elaborate on your "cheat-ass"
comment, with exactly those offenses for which Valvano has been found
guilty.

3. Surely, we can discuss these and many other wonderful issues of
Sports, despite any surliness that may or may not be relevant.

4. Often it is hard to separate your attacks on everyone from how you
truly feel. I admit that this often clouds my thinking about your
otherwise eloquent arguments.

TTom

    Keep in mind, TTom ...
     
    That in that incredible bizarro world labyrinth we all know and
    love as "MrT's Brain" (cue the "Twilight Zone" theme song) ...
    
    Not only does Lefty Driesell still coach a team in the ACC ...
    
    Not only did two small North Carolina black colleges from the ACC,
    namely NC Central and NC A&T, have an all-out rumble ...
    
    But New Orleans is in the "heart of ACC country".
    
    It doesn't get much better, does it ???
    
    Bob Hunt

   � You two sound like oily Philadelphia lawyers seeking to rob a_old
   � innocent widow of her life savings by declaring her incompetent and
   � attempting to have her forcibly committed.
   
    This coming from one of the slipperiest "lawyers" this conference
    has *ever* seen as we all witnessed over in that endless Note 110
    farce.

   � Lefty Dreissel coached in the Almost Close for a very long period
   � of time.  The only reason his latest sleazoidal excapade [sic] was
   � reported was cuz of his fame achieved in that once pristine conference.
    
    Yes, he did coach in the ACC for a long time.   His "fame", such
    as it may be, is largely the result of his Maryland tenure.

    So, what this means now in T-Land, I guess, is that *all* former
    coaches and their alleged sins bode ill for their former
    conference's image, right ???

    So, if it's open season on the ACC because Driesell, the James
    Madison coach, allegedly misbehaved, then what say we set up a
    George Raveling, Johnny Orr, Bill Frieder, Gary Williams, Jim
    Dutcher, and Eldon Miller purity watch and we make sure that
    wherever they are and whatever they do, we relate it back to the
    Big Ten ???

    So, if Raveling gets a speeding ticket in Southern California or
    if Frieder fibs about his frequent flyer bonuses at Arizona State
    or if Johnny Orr's library books are overdue at Iowa State, then
    we all know that the Big Ten is nothing but a bunch of reckless,
    lying, and delinquent deadbeats, right ???

    Gawd, T, you'll have us worshipping Tipper Gore in no time.

   � So, if I'm "attacking" anything by reporting the facks, then could you
   � all please copy me on your letters of complaint sent to the AP, UPI,
   � USA Today, ESPN, etc.?
    
    No such letter forthcoming from me.   If you're right, you're
    right.  If Driesell is in trouble, then he is JMU's problem.   And
    JMU plays in the Colonial Conference, not the ACC.

   � As for the Great Carolina Basketball Riot, Bob Hunt exhibits duplicity
   � by denying the connection: The selfsame state government that went
   � totally spineless through several Jimmy Vulva scandals also decided to
   � avert its eyes when it came to *that* tawdry little example of perverted
   � values in sports.
    
    Again, T confuses the facts with his "facks".   Two small Southern
    black colleges, NC Central and NC A&T, have a nasty rumble. 
    {Maybe they had been watching some old videotapes of Minnesota and
    Ohio State back in 1972 for some pointers on some really good
    rumble techniques.}   The state government in North Carolina or
    the state college administration or whatever "state" something or
    other doesn't do exactly what T demands they do and the next thing
    you know, it's the ACC out of control all over again.

   � As for my Nawlins mistake (GAWD they're few and far between!), the
   � major point stands: The Big10 Champ is forced to go to a mildewed naval
   � port o' call instead of Naptown.  Then, they're forced to play in front
   � of a_ACC officiating crew, who pulled what most now consider the biggest
   � screw job in the history of the NCAA tourney.  It was so bad, SO obvious,
   � and *SO* extraordinary given that it was the second time in a row for
   � State, that the Authorities have admitted this egregious "error" and are
   � considering use of instant replay to avoid it happening yet again.
    
    New Orleans is a "mildewed naval port o' call" ???   T, I suggest
    you fire your travel agent pronto.   They must have sent you to
    Norfolk instead.   

    As for the Michigan State "screw job", all the Spartans have left
    is "woulda, shoulda, coulda".   As in "woulda" won if Steve Smith
    had hit his 1-and-1 front end.  As in "shoulda" never been that
    close in the first place for the mighty Big Ten champions.  As in
    "coulda" still won in overtime if they had listened to their coach
    and hustled to call for a time out with 7 or 8 seconds remaining
    in overtime rather than wasting 3 or 4 precious seconds until it
    was too late. 
                  
   � Btw, what kind of men seem to endorse riots, sexual harrassment, cutting 
   � scholarships cuz of torn up knees, cash payoffs, test faking and grade 
   � tampering?
    
    I dunno, not me.   How you conjure up your beliefs is a mystery
    I'll never solve.   I don't seem to recall ever endorsing riots,
    sexual harrassment or athlete abuse, but hey T, if you say so,
    then golly geez, I guess it must be true.   I'm just a tiny little
    mosquito to your big bazooka.  Go ahead and shoot.  Make your day.

   � You two don't seem to share the sentiments of your own State Legislators,
   � who are willing to spend a quarter million of your hard earned taxpayer
   � dollaras just to rid themselves of that souless little devil.
    
    T, of course, conveniently forgets that Valvano had a *CONTRACT*
    that called for *HALF* a million dollars if NC State fired him
    without just cause.

    I'm not so much interested in stringing up the bureaucrats who
    authorized the $250,000.  I'd rather slice and dice the braindead
    stuffed shirts who would offer *ANY* basketball coach such a
    ridiculous buyout clause.

    NC State ought to reconsider its values and use slightly higher
    ethical standards in its hiring practices.  Like, for example,
    higher graduation rates and lower crime statistics, to name two.

    Bob Hunt

    

� No, that would be stupid across-the-board logic.  Cain you quote me
� where I said such a thing?  [no]

Just taking your tactic to its analagous conclusion.   If the ACC is
called to task for the alleged sins of the James Madison University
coach, then it only seems fair that the Big Ten be keelhauled if one
of its former coaches break a rule or two.

� >So, if it's open season on the ACC because Driesell
�  
� "Open season?"  Reporting fact is going hunting all of a sudden?

I haven't yet read or heard anything about this alleged harassment
incident.  And I sure as hell ain't gonna take *your* word as fact. 
If it's true, it's true.  If not, not.   *YOU* are the one who drew
*YOUR* own conclusion about the ACC from a piece of news *YOU* read.

� >So, if Raveling gets a speeding ticket 
�
� Bob Hunt, are you a sexist?  How cain you equate sexual harrassment to
� a lousy speeding tickets and library fines?

No, cain you quote me spouting sexist drivel ???  Cain you quote me
equating aleeged sexual harassment with speeding tickets and library
fines ???  No, you cain't.   Look real closely, T.  See that word "if"
there.  I said *IF* Raveling got a ticket.  *IF*.   You cannot pin a
"sexist" label on me, suh.

� >Gawd, T, you'll have us worshipping Tipper Gore in no time.
�
� How do you feel about unconstitutional drug tests?

They are an invasion of personal privacy.  They are illegal.  They
have no place in our society.   Of course, I sure would sleep easier
at night knowing that our tanker captains, bus drivers, train
conducters, pilots, truck drivers, nuclear weapons technicicans and so
on are sober but ...
             
� Boy, you guys spend years mulling over Bob's "lay back and enjoy it"
� faux pas, yet wink your eyes at the real thing: sexual harrassment.

No, we don't spend years chuckling at old Bob material.  He gives us
fresh stuff each time out.  I don't consider the "lay back" comment to
be all that terrible.  It was *not* sexual harrassment.  What it was
was further proof that Bob Knight, who may be the most brilliant coach
in the game, college or pro, is his own public relations nightmare. 
You can't even teach a guy to have a worse way of presenting himself
publicly.   From "lay back" to "better in the locker room than Red" to
"pound that phone" to "stuff an LSU fan in the can" to "Puerto Rico
Rock-N-Roll" to "heave that seat" to ...

I will give Bob credit for one tirade I loved.  A couple of years ago,
he exploded on the tube ranting about his kids playing all those
ESPN made-for-tube night games on the road that cut into their
next-day study time.   Of course, he didn't back it up by refusing to
play those *RICH* games but he did give us a little pout to show he
cared.
      
� Until the ACC head official and Cremins locked eyes and reversed the
� outcome with a call that wasn't even close.
  
Boy, you see the most amazing things at games, don't you ???   Prove
it that Cremins and the official conspired at that moment to force an
overtime.  Don't bother, you cain't.
  
� What happened in Carolina is that Vulva was in non-compliance with his
� contract but the state's "leaders" didn't have the courage to sue him
� for non-compliance.  

Call it a bad contract, if you will.  I already did.   But Valvano
complied with the exact wording of the contract.   He was not
implicated in any of the improprieties.   They had no just cause to
fire him other than his program was reaping huge amounts of horrible
press.  They needed to get rid of him to quiet the outcry and get on
with the business of building a new clean program.

But his contract said they coudn't just do that without paying him
$500,000.  They tried to welsh on that and Valvano stood his ground. 
Good for him.   He agreed he had to go but he didn't agree to the way
the university tried to renege on his contract.  You ought to be
applauding this "little guy" standing up for what was due him in
addition to smacking him down for letting his program get out of
control.
        
� The Almost Close should follow the lead of the Big10, where violating
� the behavior codes of the conference AND the univeristy at which he
� works consitutes abrogation of contract and thereby just cause for
� dismissal.  

He was dismissed, T, he was dismissed.  And so was Driesell and so was
Wade and so was Danny Ford.   Sheesh, at least recognize the effort to
improve alongside the effort to gain an edge.

� Also, they should follow our latest ethical innovation taken by the
� Big10 out of frustration with the NCAA's lackadaisacal enforcement of
� the rules:  If one gets caught making cash payments to athletes, the
� state of jurisdiction is encouraged to press felony charges for
� embezzlement (Luther Darville in Minn., the baseball coach in Mich.)

And you forgot to mention the Illinois recruiter (Collins ?) who's
accused of offering Deon Thomas $80,000 to wear Illini colors.

Bob Hunt

        <<< Note 25.635 by 34905::SHAUGHNESSY "A cloaca of heresies" >>>

>    >IF
    
>    That's right: You said "IF" the guy got the speeding ticket then
>    you at least would find that equivalent to sexual harrassment.
>    Almost everybody speeds and, in Bob Hunt World, apparently almost
>    everybody commits genderist [sic] crimes as well.
    
     This is completely false.  He said that a person could infer, using
     your logic, that if a former Big Ten coach got a speeding ticket,
     then the Big Ten fosters recklessness.  The exact quote:


       <<< Note 25.632 by SHALOT::HUNT "A single ping please, Vasily." >>>

>    So, if it's open season on the ACC because Driesell, the James
>    Madison coach, allegedly misbehaved, then what say we set up a
>    George Raveling, Johnny Orr, Bill Frieder, Gary Williams, Jim
>    Dutcher, and Eldon Miller purity watch and we make sure that
>    wherever they are and whatever they do, we relate it back to the
>    Big Ten ???

>    So, if Raveling gets a speeding ticket in Southern California or
>    if Frieder fibs about his frequent flyer bonuses at Arizona State
>    or if Johnny Orr's library books are overdue at Iowa State, then
>    we all know that the Big Ten is nothing but a bunch of reckless,
>    lying, and delinquent deadbeats, right ???

 > So, either I'm right and he was only kidding, or I'm right and he thinks
 > speeding and library fines are no less serious than sex crimes - something
 > I just cain't accept in my *own* ethos.
    
And yes, folks, we have yet another discussion that has been sliced and diced
for us into the only options available ...

Either A) MrT is right or B) MrT is right.   Some choice, huh ???   Stalin
would be proud.

What would we ever do without this guy ???

Hey, T, are you sure you were awake during your "Valuing Differences" course
or did you graciously volunteer to rewrite the materials after it was all 
over ???

Bob Hunt

    This argument is TOOOOO funny.Hunt and T arguing for no apparent
    reason.It seems to me when T was stating a "fack" that Hunt jumped all
    over him because he deameaned the ACC(god forbid!! -:).Please gentlemen
    let's not argue over something that is really nothing.........
    
    
    
    
    BTW - T,are you related to Dr. M???
    
    
    
    
    Just curious  -:)
    
    
    O_J

>    I said a_ill wind's blowing in the ACC what with snaggletooth and,
>    yes yes, that old ACC star Lefty Dreisell's recent sex abuse charge.
>    Then, by way of false analogy, the apparent genderist Bob Hunt wrote
>    these words:
>    
>    >if Raveling gets a speeding ticket... then we all know that the 
>    >Big Ten is nothing but a bunch of reckless, lying, and delinquent
>    >deadbeats...
>    
>    Now, I think we all cain agree that his analogy is fallacious, for
>    it seeks to establish two things: 1) that referring to a_ill wind
>    in a conference is the same as flatly stating that specific individuals
>    are reckless lying thieves and, 2) that sex abuse is the moral equivalent 
>    of speeding (not to mention incurring overdue library fines).


     No, we can't all agree.  Nothing in the first two paragraphs above
     require the conclusiions in paragraph three.  Anyone who would insist
     that they do is, well...   Let's drop that idea.

     Perhaps you can explain, IN DETAIL (since apparently we are to blind
     to understand), the logical progression from Bob Hunt's statements to
     your assertion that he is equating sexual harassment with speeding.
     Or can you ?

    Okay, okay, I concede ...
    
    Ready ???
    
    If Johnny Orr, the current head coach at Iowa State and a
    long-time Big Ten head coach, were to walk into his office stark
    naked while dripping cocaine dust from all his bodily orifices and
    he was heavily armed with an Uzi submachine gun and he then
    proceeded to ...
    
    Rape all the women, shoot all the babies, and call the Medellin
    cartel to arrange another shipment ...
    
    Would then, the world wonders, the Big Ten, his *former*
    conference, be held to blame ???   Would then the Big Ten be
    considered nothing more than a bunch of addicted, murderous
    rapists ???
    
    Would it, T ???
    
    Bob Hunt

>    And before you go off on me again, please factually objectively
>    note that all I said was "a_ill wind's blowing in the ACC" ...
    
    So.  To sum up your whole point, MrT:
    
    "There's an "ill wind" blowing in the ACC because a former ACC coach has
    been accused of sexual harassment."
    
>    Get real willya.
    
    Assuming my above summation is correct, I'd rather just let the noting
    public draw their own conclusions about whose "real".
    
    
    - ACC Chris

T did raise 3 issues:

1. Behavior of former ACC coaches.
2. Activities within the georgraphic boundaries of a state that has
ACC teams.
3. Current problems at 1 school.

I think the debate is around the first 2. 

Around the 3rd issue is a lot of room for a lot of discussion. Add to it
the Maryland troubles and all this aint good for the ACC. Also, around
the last issue there are a lot of opinions about what happened and what
should have been done about it. Interestingly, Maryland did the quick fix
and got rid of all involved and they get the bigger penalty. Of course
their violations are considered more serious because these involved
direct participation from the coaching staff and involve recruiting
violations, which the NCAA has always looked at harder.

State on the other hand has been found guilty of no recruiting
violations and no violations involving anyone from the coahing staff or
administration. The violations were the illegal transfer of tickets and
shoes by the players.

Now on top of that, State has been hit with the situation wherein Shack
took some money while in under scholarship. Shack and the agents have
confirmed this. Finally came the ABC scoop that Shack and 3 or 4 other
State players were invovled with game fixing. To date, the New Jersey and
the FBI have dropped the case due to lack of any evidence other than the
disquised player that was in on the fixes. The State of North Carolina is
still investigating the charges but have no one currently under
investigation because of it.

Ill wind? You betcha. It's bad when this happens to any college. It
certainly damages the reputations of the school, the conference and the
NCAA. Just like whatever happens to Illinois will damage that school and
the Big 10, just like whatever happens to Florida will cause damage for
it and the SEC, etc. 

However, it is highly debatable whether whatever else might happen in the
state of Illinois or whatever might happen to former Michigan coaches
reflects in any way on the Big 10.

TTom

    Divide the ACC into two groups:
    
    The good guys:(The schools that run clean programs and even manage to
    win games)
    
    UNC
    Wake
    UVA
    Duke
    Georgia Tech
    
    The outlaws(The schools that continue to have problems):
    
    Maryland
    NCST
    Clemson
    
    As an embarrassed UM graduate,I can tell you that Maryland will clean
    its house up at the risk of going back to the doormat days of the 60's.
    
    Someone unbiased should do this for the Big 10.
    

Let's make the delineation a little more definitive.

State - we're talking about the basketball program here (plus or minus
what the administration did to respond to the problems). The football
program has no such problems and in fact is run by one of the best and
cleanest in the business, Dick Sheridan.

Clemson - again, this is the football program (+/- admin). No problems in
basketball under Cliff Ellis (other than winning NCAA games which a lot
of schools have).

TTom

    Has anybody heard anything more on the rumor that the ACC is talking
    with Miami about joining the ACC?  
    
    I can't say as I'm thrilled with this move given the reputation their
    football team has had, but it is an intriguing development.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    .647�State on the other hand has been found guilty of no recruiting
    .647�violations and no violations involving anyone from the coahing staff or
    
    .647�confirmed this. Finally came the ABC scoop that Shack and 3 or 4 other
    .647�State players were invovled with game fixing. To date, the New Jersey and
    .647�the FBI have dropped the case due to lack of any evidence other than the
    .647�disquised player that was in on the fixes. The State of North Carolina is
    .647�still investigating the charges but have no one currently under
    
    Thank You!    CASE CLOSED!!!!!!!! Bam!
    
    B.A.

  >> Has anybody heard anything more on the rumor that the ACC is talking
  >> with Miami about joining the ACC?  
  >> 
  >> I can't say as I'm thrilled with this move given the reputation their
  >> football team has had, but it is an intriguing development.
    
First off, the ACC has not extended an open invitation to *any* school let
alone Miami.  Most of the ACC directors are happy with the number of schools
at eight.  Makes tournament brackets very easy to run.
   
In addition to the Hurricanes, the South Carolina Gamecocks have made some
noise about wanting back in to the conference.

As for Miami, what is their reputation, Soup ???  They're not under NCAA
probation or investigation, are they ???   Their football players are loud, 
brash, and obnoxious but the program isn't out of control, is it ???

Miami may not be the academic bellwether of this country but their sports
program is not totally shot to hell like Florida's.

Bob Hunt

    re: Miami
    
    Perhaps you're right Bob.  I don't claim expert status on the school,
    although I read some nasty articles about their football team a couple
    of years ago.  
    
    Also they dropped hoops for quite a few years.  Anybody remember what 
    circumstances were?
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

>    Also they dropped hoops for quite a few years.  Anybody remember what 
>    circumstances were?

Lack of support.  No interest.  Perhaps with the new NBA
franchises in the state of Florida, there's reason to be
optimistic again.

Dan

    No facility at UMiami either, no support, although they did have
    Rick Barry go to school there.
    
    John

    With the UNC football team being what it is the prospect of going up
    against Miami is a scary prospect indeed.  :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    
    I wouldn't be surprised at all for Miami to try to get into the ACC.
    They would have a built in patsy football schedule and couldn't ruin
    the conference's reputation with their shenanigans.
    
    Oh yeah! How much coke did George Rogers get busted with the other day?

    I love this.  MrT blasts the ACC cause the James Madison hoops coach
    is accused of sexual harassment and a couple of non-ACC teams are
    involved in a brawl, and then T's sidekick Hoot chimes him by blasting
    a running back from South Carolina whose got drug problems!
    
    You guys is killing me!
    
    
    - ACC Chris