Conference hbahba::cam_sports

    
    >>If ya play golf and drive a cart, it ain't?
    
    Depends.  If ya play it as "Full Contact" Golf, it is.
    
    First, ya drink two or three sixers of cheap beer, then ya head out to
    the local golf course, pay fer 18 holes of golf, get a cart, load up
    the clubs and begin.
    
    ya play the golf part of it more like polo, hitting the ball whilst on
    the move, from the cart.  the full contact part comes from the people
    ya "meet" on the course.  Wanna play thru someone, fine, just drive
    right over them.  Points are awarded.  Golfers aged 70+ are worth 10
    points, 50-69= 8 points, 40-50 5 points, Wimmen golfers who haven't a
    clue what they're doing, 25 points.  Golfers dressed like a pimp, 20
    points.
    
    Total up your "hits" and see who wins.  Highest score wins.
    
    Schnorttt Schittt Schleppps
    
    JaKe
    

Hey JD why do they call them Sports Jackets, If I know my wool these are made 
by machines usually by 11 year olds in Thailand. Don't tell me these kids don't
sweat. 

Jeff

    > "I don't jog."  - JD
    
    lessee, we've determined that "jogging" is recreational, but not a
    sport.  "Running" is a sport, as long as it's not a running engine, or
    an engine running.  Both "running" and "jogging" involve the identical
    motion (i.e. left foot, right foot, left foot, etc, etc, etc, etc.)
    
    So let's agree on the following:
    
    Jogging (Non-SPORT):
    
    LEFT ...... RIGHT ..... LEFT ..... RIGHT ..... LEFT ..... RIGHT ....(etc.)
    
    
    Running (SPORT):
    
    LEFT,RIGHT,LEFT,RIGHT,LEFT,RIGHT,LEFT,RIGHT,LEFT,RIGHT,LEFT,RIGHT, (etc.)
    
    MrT'd be proud of me,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

Hey Ack - You said you were a 4 - is that a DEC 4 :-)

Also, how come you ain't in the 1992 USTA ratings - with a -6 you
should be?

Hey, have fun with the running stuff.  Seeing you lean on MrT is
so rich that I'm almost wetting my pants laughing.  You using MrT
to defend a point.  Oh main, that's funny.  

An Like I said, to put it in tennis terms - what you do is jogging,
what Boris Becker does is running.  

And boy, I'm tired after driving to work, cuz driving is a sport.
Can't decide if it was turning the key or using the signal lights
that was the most taxing.  I'm tired from having that engine do
all the work....

Jeff -

HEE HAW.  Sports Jackes - I don't know.  Maybe the guys who wear 'em
are 'sports'.   Heck, half of em are lime green and have them buttons
wif the anchors on em!

    nit - JD it should be the ALTA ratings.....
    
    hth
    
    ;^)
    
    I remain,
    knowing the difference between a *LEGAL* USTA 4 and a DEC-USTA 4!
    ;^)
    Kev
    

    What ever happened to Turkey Bowling?  Wasen't it declared a sport?
    
    Gin

    
    TCM got dizzy as he was rolling down the alley.   8^)

	It's amazing what one good old belly laugh will do for even the 
	toughest of days.


	billl

What is it Brews trying to pull me into this senseless, meaningless,
redundant, overbaked, undercooked coversation??:-)

The Crazy Met

    
    Sorry TCM, I saw an opportunity, and your face popped into my mind
    firsted.  Mebbe it's cause I've never met most of the other noters. 
    8^)
    
    brews

                <<< CAM::$1$DUA5:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS.NOTE;1 >>>
                                  -< SPORTS >-
================================================================================
Note 123.11                     What is a Sport?                        11 of 11
SOLANA::MAY_BR "Clinton,Guinier,Heiser"               6 lines  17-JUN-1993 12:24
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Sorry TCM, I saw an opportunity, and your face popped into my mind
    firsted.  Mebbe it's cause I've never met most of the other noters. 
    		               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    8^)
    
    brews
    
    
    
    
    	AND FOR THAT, WE ARE MOST GREATFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    

    Like most of the masochistic runners I know, JD adheres to the bogus
    mindset that SPORT must involve some level of physical pain to qualify
    as meaningful.  We've all heard the expression "If It Ain't Hurtin', It
    Ain't Workin'."  For those addicted to the "activity" of
    jogging/running (and addicted is the appropriate term here, as
    scientists have proven that a "runners high" is the result of a
    chemical release in the brain) it's appropriate to snub their nose at
    "lesser" (i.e. non-anaerobic) activities and even go so far as to label 
    them "non-SPORT".
    
    Wail as a former jogger/runner I'm here to blow the whistle on this
    discusting and ill-founded elitism.  Somehow or other runners, in their
    addictive behavior, feel they're actually running away from death.  As
    if as long as they hit the pavement each and everyday the grim reaper
    will somehow pass them by.  Nevermind about that fellow Jim Fixx. 
    Nevermind about the women who are so addicted that their body fat goes
    too low to bear children.  Nevermind the fat bucks runners plop into
    podiatrists wallets cause humans are doing far more than their bodies
    were designed to do.  Nevermind the guilt that often plagues a runner
    when he cain't make it out for his daily jog cause he's gotta take
    his kid to a little league game or, worse, the dad who passes up his
    daughters first school play cause he's gotta log his daily 10-miler.
    
    What's my definition of SPORT?  For me, SPORT == competition.  If it's
    competitive it cain be called SPORT.  Any further disection of the
    definition is pure academic. 
    
    But there's more.  In my mind a SPORT involves two (2) basic
    ingredients:
    
    a) The Physical
    b) The Mental
    
    Plotted on a graph we might see SPORTS like running and chess look
    like:
    
    PHYSICAL								MENTAL
      |								          |
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------
        ^							          ^
        |							          |
     running							        chess
    
    The "perfect" SPORT would be the perfect marriage between the physical
    and the mental.  IMO this sport is Boxing.  Incredibly challenging
    physically and mentally.  
    
    Hope this clears things up for everyone,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    	

    
    I'd pick real rasslin' over boxing.  A sport in which George Foreman is
    amongst the top performers can't brag about the amount of physical
    fitness required.
    
    brews  

    	I like real 'rasslin too Bruce.  The King of the Ring is probably
    the best athlete in all of sports.
    
    				/Don

    Is Demolition Derby a sport?
    

    or better yet, what about r/c car racing?
    

    Or Matchbox vs. Hot Wheels racing..
    

    or the annual Audobon Society bird watching contest?
    

Matchbox RULES!

    Hot Wheels kicked butt... you could run them into a wall and they'd just
    chip the paint.  Matchbox would dent and crack...

Ack -

Totally Wrong should be yer middle name.  I don't subscribe to the no
pain, no gain theory.  In fack, why you've been busy hoping the stain
don't show in the crack of yer tennis whites, almost all of the running
community has turned completely away from that style of training/running -
a style that has been daid for over a decade now.

Sure, there are still some nuts who subscribe to that, but most listen
to their body.  You know Ack, you stick to the idolation of Dean, at
least there you almost sound like you may have a slight clue.

And did you have those guilt feelings?  I've never had a 'streak' of 
running that I've tried to keep up.  My body is tired, I take a day
off.  Even when competing, we had off days.  Sorry ACK, nice try.  Jim
Fixx, FWIW, was a smoker, overweight, who road a wave by writing a book
that was pure crap.  And he died.  Of course ACK, no matter what you do,
if its time, and you being an oh-so-good-b-a'er should know that when
the good lord wants ya...

As for woman...its a fack that in athletics, if a woman gets in super
shape, and loses x% of body fat, that certain bodily functions cease -
one being the period.  By stopping hte training, they go back to normal,
which is why those horrible folks like Joan Benoit and Grete Waitz, for
example, are mommies, (Evelyn Ashford and many others also...)

As for snubbing my nose at other sports:  Which ones other than the 
good old boy car racing ones ACK?  Less see, I play or played tennis, 
gaelic football, golf, base/soft ball, football, hoops, lacrosse, badminton,
volleyball...

So come on ACK?  Sounds like ya got sour grapes ACK.  

And the graph summs up just how incredibly off base you are.  Competitive
racing is more mental than physical, especially longer distances.  Perhaps
you never understood that ACK.  Good/great runners have a mental toughness
that takes more out of you then the physical exertion.  

And the podiatrists wallet?  Lets see, I've run, oh 45,000 miles, probably
more.  I've spent about $140.00 on pods.   In over 20 years.  Another 
big zero for the ACKSTER.   Also, name a sport that the top athlets don't
physically challege the limits of their bodies  (oh, perhaps tennis don't, hey
Ackster - or perhaps you never had the mental toughness to push yerself, 
which may explain the drifting from sport to sport...)

Lets see:  bicyclists, weightlifters, swimmers, hoopsters (say, don't you
think Micheal Air Jordan pushes hisself to the limit at times?), football
players, skiers, and the list goes on.

So, sounds like you know one of them addicts (and you get em in every
sport - including tennis, golf, softball), who don't have priorities.  Or
are you speaking from personal experience ACK?  And that type of thing
happens with non-sports activities, like work, etc.  Why Ackster, I've
known folks who do the kind of things you wail about because they
gotta watch a college hoops game, or a baseball game, or a football
game on TV....

JD

    Throughout this fun filled discussion, I find it interesting that
    every thing that is/is not  is/is not  is/is not a sport
    really doesn't clarify the human element of what is a sport.
    
    Following the form feed, I'm attempting to resolve this dilemma.
    
    hth
    
    
    
    
	telephone ringing......

	Ringgg    ringggggg    ringgggg

Dave:	Hello?
 Jane: Hello Dayvvve?

Dave: Yeah this is Dave. Who's this?

Jane: This is Jayyyne!
Dave: Jane? Jane who????"

Jane: "JAYNNE, remember - we met at a party ohhh six to eight weeks ago???
	You said I was a GOOD SPORT!!!"
Dave (mutterring under his breath) Oh sh*t, it's Jane: "Jane, oh yeah, Jane,
	How are you?"

Jane: "I'm pregnant.........and I'm gonna jump out of a window......"

    
    
    
Dave: "SAY......YOU ARE A GOOD SPORT!"

    
    
    
    
    
    

No pain, no gain is a totally overrated saying.

There are points in any athletic competition or training where you have
to push yourself, but there is a limit too.


btw, Chess is not such a total mental game.  I remember seeing a report
on 60 Minutes years ago of how Fisher would train for a champeenship
series.  And to be that sharp mentally your bod has to be in tip
top shape.

Maintaining concentration in a run, or any endurance sport can be 
very tough.  75% of proper front row scrummaging is form, and form is
directly related to concentration.  Late in the game, with strength
waning, and concentration waning, it takes a lot of mental effort
to "stay IN the game".  It's like that with other sports too....


Matchbox rules.   


And also, I'm going to write a letter to the IAEWBA (International
Association of Electric Wheelchair Basketball Athletes) that they
are not playing a sport, and in the interest of good sportsmanship
they should give up all their trophies!


'saw

You need a vacation JD.  Not only are your notes lacking in factual content
but they're just getting plain dull.  There's your incessant whining about
the officiating regarding Jordan (Big-time YAWN).  Then I notice in your 
reply to me you used the word "Ack" no less than *12* times.  Your prose 
needs some work bub.


> almost all of the running community has turned completely away from that 
> style of training/running - a style that has been daid for over a decade 
> now.

Funny, cause I don't remember mentioning a "style of training".  In fact,
I'm sure I didn't.  I was talking about the mentality of the runner - the
mindset that "If it doesn't include physical effort, it's not a SPORT." 
attitude.  Doesn't sound to me like that mentality has changed, unless
a_course you've just bean pullin' our legs regarding AutoRacing <> SPORT.
HAW!!


> Jim Fixx, FWIW, was a smoker, overweight, who road a wave by writing a book
> that was pure crap.  And he died.  

Yes he died, which is the only thing you got right in that sentence.  Fixx
was an **EX** smoker, and **FORMERLY** overweight.  Kindof an important
distinction.  His book was a Best-Seller that spawned a revolution in
American recreation.  I wouldn't exactly call that "crap".


> And the graph summs up just how incredibly off base you are.  Competitive
> racing is more mental than physical, especially longer distances.  Perhaps
> you never understood that ACK.  Good/great runners have a mental toughness
> that takes more out of you then the physical exertion.  

Haw haw!  More mental than physical?!  Haw!  Let's see, here I aim at
mile marker 20.  Should I go:

LEFT, .. RIGHT, .. LEFT, .. RIGHT.

Or mebee pick it up a tad:

LEFT,RIGHT,LEFT,RIGHT.

Mebee it's time to sprint:

L R L R L R L R

Mental *toughness*?  Definitely.  But mental in the sense of "Ya really gotta
use those synapses."?  No way.


> And the podiatrists wallet?  Lets see, I've run, oh 45,000 miles, probably
> more.  I've spent about $140.00 on pods.   In over 20 years.  Another 
> big zero for the ACKSTER.   

JD I worry about you.  These lapses in basic logic are skeery.  Surely
you don't mean to say that just cause *U* only forked over 140 bucks to
a podiatrist doesn't imply that the increase in jogging over the last decade
or so hasn't caused a rapid increase in cash outlays to foot doctors.


> which may explain the drifting from sport to sport...)

JD attacks me for "drifting from sport to sport", yet only a few paragraphs
previously sez:

"I play or played tennis,gaelic football, golf, base/soft ball, football, 
hoops, lacrosse, badminton,volleyball..."

Ho my this is *rich*.  RICH!  


- ACC Chris
    

    
    As defined from Pioneer Square, Seattle, USA:
    
    "Whuzzat cher drinkin'?"
    
    "S'port."
    
    "Oh."

    You have to admire Chris for posting his recreational interests and
    sports experience.  I knew he was setting himself up for scrutiny as
    soon as it appeared.  Too many armchair types in here that love to tear
    other people down without having the filberts to open up their
    experience to the same scrutiny.

    Just read the last few:
    I think it does not make too much sense to find out which 'sport'
    is physically and mentally more or less demanding ( personally would
    put amateur wrestling, boxing and ice-hockey at the top ).
    Perhaps the old english gentleman-like competition is still the best
    definition. If that is accepted, though, one can seriously doubt that
    many professional 'sports' are still sports, as much as they are 
    dominated by mechansims of commerce these days.
    Another way to look at 'sports' would be, how good or bad their
    implications are towards the general society. In this sense I
    personally would be very 'defensive' (to say the least) vs. all kinds
    of motor-sports. I think in these days it is simply the wrong signal
    that 'we' still can afford to act as if natural resources are there
    to play with (myself being a pilot I once saw a proud sign on a
    high performance plane saying "I'm a gas guzzler"), even if the actual
    amounts of gas and terrain consumption and air-pollution is neclectable
    based on the general mess in that area. But i'm talking about signals,
    and for me restricting or even prohibiting some or many motor-'sport'
    events would be a good signal. So, in this instance it would not matter
    to me if car-racing is physically demanding or not. In this context,
    isn't it so that sport is somehow connected to health, and if so, don't
    you have problems in saying 'this is a sport' when participants ruin
    their health by doping or being around exhaustion-gases all the time? 

Accrisp -

So, you KNOW the  mentality of every runner?  From your note, I'd
say you don't have a clue.  I'll even use your time honored logic:

JD has been active for over 20 years, Crisp a few.  JD literally
knows hundreds of serious runners, recreational runners, and 
joggers.  Crisp knows how many?  Yet Crisp claims to know the mental
makeup of these folks.  This from a guy who puts in the incredibly
stupid "Mental - Physical" chart and claims all it is is LRLRLRLR

As for 'drifting from sport to sport' - One sport seriously, others
as recreation.  Looking at your life experience, looks like you lack
the mental toughness, or physical ability, to stick with any sport.

Incredibly wrong Chrissy.  Your lack of knowledge in this area even
overshadlow yer love for Dean.

And if fact, you also got the "If it lacks physical effort, it 
ain't a sport" - that you spout as a quote to back up yer claims.
I said, "If you need a MOTOR to propel yerself, it ain't a sport,
to me..."   Even said to TH that its athletic.  

On Jim Fixx - Yes he was an ex-smoker, and he was overweight.  He also
was a noveau born-again runner.  Someone who took it up later in 
life trying to save themselves.  His book was pure drivel. He didn't
spawn any running revolution, Chris.  The so called running boom can
be traced to Frank Shorter's victory in Munich, coupled with the
widely popular Steve Prefontaine's career, and the writings of
folks like Dr. George Sheehan.  Fixx can later, and rode the wave.
So his book was popular - so was the Scarsdale Diet book.  Big deal.

No to the outlays to the podiatrist.  I'm sure there are many runners/
joggers that have had lots of physical problems that have caused an
outlay of money.  So Chris, tell me - what sport hasn't caused money
to be paid to one specialist or another?  You play tennis - I know
lots of folks who have spent big doctor bills caused by tennis - from
Tennis elbow, to back, neck, knee and ankle injuries.  So that is
a lame arguement.  Why even that new saviour sport of our today's
youth, soccer, has seen a huge increase in injuries (leading to
someone paying bucks to doctors/specialist) as it has increased in
popularity.

And I"ll say again, if you think its mostly physical, you are wrong.
The physical abilities, or differences, between the top, say 5 - 10%
of track and field athletes is small or nonexistant.  Its the mental
training that separates the Carl Lewis' from the 'close but no cigar'
types.  

Game, Set, Match Chris.   Stick to stroking Dean.

JD

    I was going to go into it with the preface "please, don't take this
    personally...but", but what I would have to say about this "send
    signals" baloney needs to be shouted in a padded, sound-proofed room.
    (I just wrote it anyway but am not posting it for now)
    
    Bill

    	Bowlin' is a great sport, 'cuz you has to drink beer while your
    participatin'!
    
    				/Don

Well, the way I see it, as long as you don't use a motorized cup to
shake and roll the dice, Yahtzee is a sport.....


right?


'Saw

    But Karen, you not very good at card games are you?
    
    REK
    :-}

> Game, Set, Match Chris.   

Yea, it's over all right, and unfortunately you just got double-bageled.
(That's high tech tennis talk folks for 6-0, 6-0.)  In your reply
you managed to:

o Admitted that you were wrong regarding Fixx.  He had, in
  fact, given up smoking.  He no longer was overweight.  Whether or not
  his book spawned the running revolution, enhanced the running revolution,
  or was merely a beneficary of the same is a question for historians to
  answer.

o Agreed with me that the running boom did result in increased trips to
  podiatrists.

o Managed to completely miss my point on the mental vs. physical aspect
  of running.  Try an remember JD I may not be a world-class runner like
  you but *did* run competitively in HS and college, *have* run hundreds
  of road races, and finished 3 marathons.  When defining the mental aspect
  I'm *not* talking about guts, determination, or desire.  I *aim* talking
  about using your brain to solve complex problems presented by multiple
  stimuli.  Chess would be the supreme example of this (running has absolutely
  no equivalent mental challenge).  Other sports require a far greater degree
  of mental aptitude.  A hoops PG has countless decisions to make.  A
  baseball pitcher is faced with a myriad of complex alternatives.  A
  football quarterback must decide among many alternatives in a fraction
  of a second.  

  What does running have that compares?  Precious little.
  

> I said, "If you need a MOTOR to propel yerself, it ain't a sport,
> to me..."   

I, the admission we've been waiting for.  Those last two (2) little words:  
"to me...".  To *U* motor sports are not SPORT.  Which brings me full circle 
to my original statement:

Who cares what you think?  If ya can't back it up with some type of 
objective case your opinion don't mean squat.


- ACC Chris
    

�Who cares what you think?  If ya can't back it up with some type of 
�objective case your opinion don't mean squat.
    
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    
    People have been telling you that for years...

Thanks Mac.

And Chrisp - always have me laughing when you claim victory even
in defeat.  Must be all those excellent losses you crowed about
with the TarHells.  Cuz Chris, you got a_excellent loss.

Especially the Pod thing.  Now that's too funny.  Increased
participation in a sport results in increased trips to the doctor.
Gee, that's a no brainer.  And like I said, find me a sport that
this hasn't happened in.

As for the IMO, I said that all along.  You jest never READ the
notes.   

\As for Fixx - he was a health risk (that came out after his
death). The smoking, the virtual disregard for his body, coupled
with family history put him at serious risk.  Fixx was perhaps someone
teh weekend jogger could relate too - but to the vast majority of
runners I knew, he was a nobody.  No one shed a tear when he died,
and no one cared.  He was the Dyan Cannon of running - jumped on
the bandwagon...He never achieved anything worthwhile running - no
good times, no good distances, nothing.  He wrote a book that was
a best seller read by folks who read allthe self-help books.

And I'll assert that if you don't think there are any decisions to
be made, then you don't know anything about the sport.

Oh, and Chrissy, you've double-faulted again.  Advantage, Devlin.

JD

    I never said there were *NO* decisions to be made in running.  Matter
    of fact I documented one.  I did say (and will continue to say) that
    running simply does not present the participant with the level of
    complexity that other sports routinely do.
    
    As to the podiatrist thang, it's axiomatic that increased participation
    will result in increased doctors visits.  I've never argued otherwise. 
    What I have and will argue is that:
    
    a) You initially tried to deny this fact, claiming that you've logged
       45K miles and only spent 140 bucks on a podiatrist, the implication
       being running does not increase doctors visit.
    
    b) On a relative basis runners present more problems for the medical
       profession than other sports because high-mileage running very
       often involves exceeding the boundaries of what our bodies were
       designed to do.  (i.e. a horse was made to run alot; Man (generic)
       was not.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    This is one of those notes that I usally Next/Unseen but Im really
    enjoying it :-)
    
    Im just trying to decide who's side I should take, seeing that I dont
    know anything about running from a pro's standpoint (I was in a jogging
    club way, way back in JR HIGH) Ill just sit back and enjoy.
    
    								MairB

Now Chris -

You are really doing a spin job with the Podiatrist thang.  Medical
problems abound in sports.  Like I said, as soccer play has increased,
so have soccer-related injuries. But that seems normal.  

The Human body was made for running.  Some indian tribes in the
Andes regions of south america still run long distances without
problems (like hundreds of miles non stop).  Many of the great
Kenyan distance runners come from a tribe that is used to running
as a way of life.  For an anecdote, in the 1920's, some indians
from COlumbia were brought in to run the Boston Marathon.  They
didn't win, but upon finishing asked "That's all you run?"  They
were used to running much longer distances.

No, Chris, Man has running in his blood.  

The vast majority of injuries do occur in those who take up the
sport, and then try to do too much too soon, or use improper
equipment (this is documented in different journals).  Of course,
with any sport, if you try to do too much too soon, you run a 
higher risk of injury.

Are bodies probably weren't made to be slammed repeatedly by 
300 lb behemoths (football), or to do slamma jammas over genetic
mutants (hoops), or chase a fuzzy little ball around trying to
hit it with a racquet.

Running is natural Chris.  The body was built for it.  Children
instinctively run - almost as soon as they cain walk.  They don't
instinctively don shoulder pads, or a tennis racquet, or ice
skates (well, maybe in Canada they do ;-) ).

Approach the net Chris and be a sportsman and shake the hand
of your conqueror.

JD

    The human body may have been made for running in some sense.  Going
    long distances in bare feet over dirt or grass, ... I cain buy that.
    But long miles on concrete with synthetic materials strapped to our
    feet?  No I dunnot think so.
    
    One aspect of running that must be mentioned is the significantly high
    degree of natural ability necessary to perform successfully.  I
    recognize that "talent" plays a role in any sport, but running would
    seem to me to be more genetically controlled than almost any other.
    
    In sum, to compete at the top in running you must first be born with
    the right genes.  In motor sports there's an equal chance for all,
    since almost anybody knows how to drive a car.
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

CHriss -

So you admit defeat, by saying that anyone can do car racing - with
the hidden admission that it is the engine that does the work,
meaning that it don't take any athletic ability to do it.

Thanks.  

Game, Set Match again.

JD

    Nice try JD, but you're the one spouting the prerequisite that SPORT
    *must* involve a physical outlay, not me.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    LESS FILLING!
    
    TASTES GREAT!
    
    LESS FILLING!
    
    TASTES GREAT!
    
    
    Conrad Dobler

Oh Chris - 

Awash in a wave of spin control, hanging yer haid low, clay stains
on yer tennis whites, yer racquet strings broken from trying to
return my blasts, shuffling in defeat....

Not a pretty site.  Tough day.  Getting whupped here, and only
having the ACC note to go back to - a note where you are in
serious disarray trying to return Waugaman's volley's.

I think you need a vacation - take next week off and regroup.
Read a few poop sheets. Restring the racquet.  Think about
taking up croquet...

JD

    from 123.27
    
    > You have to admire Chris for posting his recreational interests and
    > sports experience.  I knew he was setting himself up for scrutiny as
    > soon as it appeared.  Too many armchair types in here that love to tear
    > other people down without having the filberts to open up their
    > experience to the same scrutiny.
    
    Thank you Mike.  Thank you.  But it should come as no surprise that I
    would be the one to seek the Objective Truth regardless of the public
    ridicule that we both knew would come my way.
    
    Yours in martyrdom,
    
    
    - ACC Chris

BTW:

Who tore down Chris' experience?  Was it those cracks folks made
about the baseball schedule?  

JD

    the reason I was testy about "sending signals" relates to Minor league
    ban of chewing tobacco.  Phoenix AAA players have responded by a ban on
    talking to press to protest.
    
    I think we should take up a collection to help pay for any fines
    incurred by players still chewing; 
    
    Mike, where should I send the check since you are in Phoenix and can
    present it on behalf of sprotsters
    
    Bill "Jefferson,Madison, Patrick Henry" Breen

    Send it to me so I can buy tickets for games 6 and 7.

    Yabbut since we (still) don't have a rasslin note, I figgered I'd 
    put it in here, 'specially for da Slasher and Tommy.  ;^)
    
    Tonight in da Woostah Memorial Auditorium there's gonna be a bunch of
    'roid filled girly-mons from da WWF doing their thang.  
    
    I guess ya gotta check yer local listings for anything else!
    
    I remain,
    truely believing that da WWF is legit!
    Kev
    

  Has wrasslin' declined in popularity or sumpin' cause they used to hold
 the matches at the MUCH larger Centrum? But the new Aud really is nice and 
 it has a rich wrasslin'tradition along with more nuts per square inch than
 any place else on the east coast.

    
    
    
    Is Balcony Rat Tossing a sport?
    
    'Saw can explain it all.
    
    Gin

    Balcony Rat Tossing????
    Is that anything like Dwarf Tossing????
    
    OOPs
    
    JaKe
    

>>    Balcony Rat Tossing????
>>    Is that anything like Dwarf Tossing????

	Probably depends on the size of the varmit.  (And whether or not it
	is a NEW job, or not.)


	billl

    
    
    Yabbut if'n we're up in the balcony,  would loogie hawkin be considered
    a sport?
    
    I remain,
    holdin a big one in ma throat!
    Kev
    

> I remain,
> holdin a big one in ma throat!
> Kev

Kev, do always make it THIS easy?? :-)

The Crazy Met

    
    
       Kev don't swallow!
    
    
    Chappy

    It all depends on if the loogie hits the rat bag.
    
    Gin

    Depends on what the guy did before you threw him over...
    

    Walt,
    
    Contrary to popular gossip, I do not throw men over the balcony.  They
    have always choosen to jump, honest!
    
    Gin

    Seems that says   a lot about you Gin... Men would rather jump that
    face you??????
    
    
    REK

    I didn't say anything about throwing men over, did I?

    
    >>Contrary to popular gossip, I do not throw men over the balcony.  They
    >>have always choosen to jump, honest!
    
    Is this before or after you exercise your "sense of humor" on them???
    
    JaKe
    

    WHAT!!  So you are saying, JaKe, that I don't have a sence of humor? 
    How the heck would you know?  You, the one who thinks letting people
    believe he is leaving (only for 3 days) is humor.  Well me dearie, I
    think I should shove YOU in the beer box, then dumpt the box in an
    Albertson's bag, then over the balcony you go.   Now THAT would be
    funny.
    
    As to the other questions and statements................
    
    Walt, you know my roommate has handcuffs and shackles.  I doubt anyone
    is going to jump off the balcony.
    
    Gin
    
     

	Now that's what I call a SPORT!  It would take one heck of an 
	athlete to be able to shove JaKe entirly into a beer box. I assume
	we're talking 24 can case of 12ozers, right?

	Sorry, ole fellow 'burgher, I gotta go with Gin on this one.  She's
	got one helluva sense of humor!


	billl

    How about Gin and JaKe take this to mail.  I see no reason for
    continuing this in here.

Sounds like a mighty fine sport to me.

HtH,

The Crazy Met

    
  >><<< Note 123.65 by SWAM2::MASSEY_VI "I don't know, he's shooting blanks!" >>>
  >>                      -< Just cain't leave it alone >-

    No, dammit.
    
  >>  WHAT!!  So you are saying, JaKe, that I don't have a sence of humor? 
  >>  How the heck would you know?  You, the one who thinks letting people
  >>  believe he is leaving (only for 3 days) is humor.  Well me dearie, I
  >>  think I should shove YOU in the beer box, then dumpt the box in an
  >>  Albertson's bag, then over the balcony you go.   Now THAT would be
  >>  funny.
    
    I only got oto look at the fact that you got peaved over this to see
    that something is lacking, don't I??
    
    Sheesh, getting peaved at this prank is like the guy who got peaved at
    me because of a little note I entered onece about NY banning bowling,
    when a vertically disadvantaged individual was substituted fer the
    bowling ball.  ANybody who PAYS ATTENTION to this notesfile knows that
    my mission in here is to get set hidd....er....just try and be funny,
    maybe I don't always succeed at it, but there are times...  I,
    personally, got a big laugh out of SantaScam '93, as did quite a few
    others who have let me know offline.  The fact that you have to get in
    here and whine about it being bad to do, and effectively calling me an
    egotistical self-serving bastard, which I'm not, cause my parents were
    married, only goes to show that you have one of those senses of humor
    maybe needs a jump start.  Lighten up, it was a minor prank to loosen
    up this notesfile, it's been pretty dead in here recently, so I
    figgered I'd get something going.
    
    Re. beer box, let me drink it empty first and ya could do with me whatever
    you please.
    
    billl....I'm suprised at you, being a traitor on a fellow 'burgher, I'm
    drinking those Ahrn City's tonight when I get home, and defiling the
    Clemente pictures on them, then I'll fill them up with the "rented beer
    return" and ship them to ya.
    
    (8^(
    
    JaKe
    

    
    >>How about Gin and JaKe take this to mail.  I see no reason for
    >>continuing this in here.
    
    How's about if we move it to the junk note, or the Rugby note, same
    difference.
    
    JaKe
    

    Awww,
    
    In keeping with this here note, JaKe is a sport we all know that.
    
    I dunno, ah thought it was harmless and a tad comical....plus he
    didn't waste too much disk space...
    
    MikeL
    

    Well this "bantering" back and forth between the two of you has
    extended over 3 or 4 topics already.  Enough is enough.  Take it to
    MAIL.

    She must have a sense of humor.... she puts up with JaKe...
    
    I didn't say a word about handcuffs and roommates...
    
    

    To mail it is.  Besides, most of the stuff I want to say here would get
    me set hidden till I was JaKe's age anyway.  I dont' want to be hidden
    THAT long.
    
    Gin
    

    
    >>me set hidden till I was JaKe's age anyway.  I dont' want to be hidden
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    Oh, so now I'm an "Old Man".
    
    Dueling Mail Messages it is.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    >><<< Note 123.77 by CSTEAM::FARLEY "Carol's wearing maternity clothes" >>>
    >>      -< pleeze put me on the cc: list?  I don't wanna miss dis! >-
    
    
    Kev,
    
    Yer ::SPORTS version of a ambulance chaser.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    >><<< Note 123.79 by CSTEAM::FARLEY "Carol's wearing maternity clothes" >>>
    >>          -< Yabbut ain't ambulance chasin a sport?????  ;^) >-
    
    Nah, yer thinking of Skirt Chasing!!!!
    
    
    JaKe
    

    
    >><<< Note 123.81 by CSTEAM::FARLEY "Carol's wearing maternity clothes" >>>
    >>              -< Skirt chasin's a pretty neat sport too! >-
    
    But skirt removing is a stretching exercise fer the best sport knonwn
    to man!!!
    
    (8^)
    
    (8^0
    
    JaKe
    

    cc list
    
    csteam::farley
    metsny::francus
    mkfsa::long
    royalt::ashe
    
    make sure that pate::macneal is not on it, wouldn't want to waste his
    disk quota.
    
    The Crazy Met

    Hey, thats my line!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Rodney
    
                <<< CAM::$1$DUA5:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS.NOTE;1 >>>
                                  -< SPORTS >-
================================================================================
Note 123.73                     What is a Sport?                        73 of 83
16421::HEISER "visualize whirled peas"                 1 line  27-OCT-1993 17:23
                -< "Why can't we all just try and get along?" >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    

    TCM, the voyuer of SPORTS.

    No you did mention handcuffs and shackles... just that you didn't
    have them, your roommate did...
    

    Jake......You're the old man, you tell me.
    
    Walt......Okay, so she owns them but I do know how to use them.
    
    Gin

    Probably some butthead who kept saying "fire... fire... that's cool..."

    
    
    	Yabbut, I think thisa belongs here.
    
    I heard that over in England, the hang-glider_guy_who_invades_boxing_
    matches, did his thing again only thisted time he landed at Buckingham
    Palace!  The story goes on to report that after landing, he undressed
    and had painted the lower part of his body green.
    
    My question is, which of these constitutes a sport?  Is it the hang
    gliding or is body painting a sport?
    
    Either way, there's more to this than the left,right,left,right
    skills =bob= employs!
    
    ;^)
    
    I remain,
    hangin babeee!
    Kev
    

    
�    Either way, there's more to this than the left,right,left,right
�    skills =bob= employs!

Hey Kev, do diapers...

=Bob=

    
    
    >> Hey Kev, do diapers......
    
    
    	Yabbut I cain't!  The Storkmeister hasn't even started flyin yet!
    
    I remain,
    wondering, is doing diapers morally wrong??????
    Kev
    

|                       -< Is delivering babies a sport? >-

Only for EMTs who get to deliver in the ambulance on the way to
the hospital....

There's usually a pool going in any given month in any given
ambulance company on who might get pick up the little pink or
blue diaper pin you get to wear on your uni after a successful
delivery.

If there's a pool going on, then it's a sport.....


'swa

That hang-gliding guy is now languishing in an English jail. This time he picked
the wrong target. You might let him get away with messing up sporting events,
but touch our Queen (or her property) and you die. No messing. 8-)

mike

>but touch our Queen (or her property) and you die. No messing. 8-)

Mike, 

I gots to know.

Did she say  "We are not amused"???????


God Save the Queen,
'Saw

    Good for the Brit pooleece Mike.
    Can you arrange to send him to a penal colony...via his hand glider?
    
    MikeL
    

>    Can you arrange to send him to a penal colony...via his hand glider?
>    
>    MikeL

Mike, is that a little Freudian slip there?


'Saw
    

    
    
    	Yabbut 'saw he SAID "penal".  I didn't see no reference
    to Lorena Bobbit!!!!!
    
    ;^)
    
    I remain,
    fully knowing that shovelling snow thisted AM ain't a sport!
    Kev
    

>    	Yabbut 'saw he SAID "penal".  I didn't see no reference
>    to Lorena Bobbit!!!!!
    
He put penal and HAND glider in the same sentence......

Freudian?  Could be.  

But knowing Mike to be the Mick that he is, he's probably typing through
a Bushmill's haze this morning, not knowing where his fingers are going
because his Irish skull is pounding.....


[many 8^)]

'Saw

MikeL,

We don't have penal colonies in England no more. We just cut their heads off. Ah
well, maybe I'm just dreaming, but it couldn't happen to a more deserving guy.
8-)

mike

>We don't have penal colonies in England no more. We just cut their heads off. Ah
>well, maybe I'm just dreaming, but it couldn't happen to a more deserving guy.
>8-)
>
>mike

Mike, was it Henry VIII who kept saying "Off with her head"??????


'Saw

>>>>	Mike, was it Henry VIII who kept saying "Off with her head"??????

    
    	Yabbut I'm sorry to tell ya saw that that phrase is incorrect.
    Ya see, it was wrongly translated from old english.  Scholars are now
    reporting that Henry really said "Get her off my head"!
    
    Seems she was about 16 stones....
    
    
    ;^)
    
    I remain,
    auld enuf to me-member
    Kev
    

I thought it was "Get me off my head" and he just wanted to go down the pub. 8-)

mike

    Penal... hand, nope won't take crdit, Freudian slip. now if
    I said penile...
    
    Off with his head, I like that..sounds Cromwellian. Poor Chuck the
    First (or was it second)..
    
    MikeL
    

>    Penal... hand, nope won't take crdit, Freudian slip. now if
>    I said penile...
    

Well, I stand corrected....or would it be circumcised?

    I thought Ol' henry said:
    
    
    
    "I want more head."
    
    
    
    JaKe
    
    

�That hang-gliding guy is now languishing in an English jail. This time he picked
�the wrong target. You might let him get away with messing up sporting events,
�but touch our Queen (or her property) and you die. No messing. 8-)
    
    Good thing he didn't land in the midst of a soccer match.  He never
    would have made it to jail.

        Time to start a rathole.....

    Instead of trying to figure out what is a sport and what is not a sport
    I have a better idea.... Take a look at the person who is "doing" the
    sport and see if this person is an athlete.....

    Example: Sumo Wrestling, Sport?? Athlete Nope....
             
    REK

  Most figure skaters are better athletes than a lot of baseball pitchers.
Would anyone say that Surya Bonaly of France was not an athlete? 

  By the way, did you see the skating exhibition? She wowed everyone by doing a
back flip (a real one following the gymnastic definition) and she did land on
one foot. To my knowledge no man has ever done that in either gymnastics or
skating. 

    George

    	Hey REK, I bet a sumo 'rassler would make a good first baseman
    or a designated hitter though...
    
    				/Don

    Goalie...
    

    Hey, the US Olympic hokey team was clearly the wimpiest thing on ice at
    the Lillehammer Games.  They could have used Kathy Turner.  Our bobsled
    guys were also disgraceful but at least they tried to pull something
    that Travis Ford would've been proud of...
    
    glenn
    

    thats Cathy Turner.
    
    REK, is dog catching a sport?? or is it just a service for humanity??
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    SI last week had article about MJ making Chicago team. It mentioned
    that top "athletes" do not make baseball players. It has the John Kruk
    quote. When asked while smoking a butt, was that appropriate for an
    athlete, he said "I'm a baseball player, not an athlete!"
    
    I get a kick out of that. 
    
    
    Since the Schmets (schmuck Mets) were so ******** last year,
    I liked rooting for those misfits in PA.

    well we almost forgive you for abandoning a team in need, but only
    because it was for the Phillies. Mets never did have a stretch where
    they battled the Phillies; Cards and Pirates, yes, Phillies no. Cubs
    rivalry is in the mind of Cubs fans.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Using the Maiewski definition of a sport, "Star Search" is a sporting
    event.  It is quite popular and features a competition.

    Read a good line on this subject in the Globe during the Olies. "If you
    have to smile to be successful, it isn't a sport" (or words to that
    effect). Referring, naturally, to the skating events.  

  If 2 or more competitors, with or without officials agree on rules to some
athletic event, agree on a way of keeping score, compete to win, and each has a
reasonable chance of winning, it's a sport, even if the scoring is subjective. 

  Figure Skating is a sport.

  College Wrestling is a sport.

  Pro Wrestling is not a sport since there is no competition. It is a scripted
and rehearsed performance. 

  Duck hunting is not a sport. The Duck never agreed to the rules and never
wins (i.e he never gets to eat the hunter).

  Bear hunting with a bow and arrow is a sport. The bear appears to agree with
the rules and will eat the hunter if he wins.

  George

    re .119
    
>  If 2 or more competitors, with or without officials agree on rules to some
>athletic event, agree on a way of keeping score, compete to win, and each has a
>reasonable chance of winning, it's a sport, even if the scoring is subjective. 



  So, lessee.. 

 If I ride my bike for 30 miles solo, that's not a sport, because
 there's no competitors and no rules.

 If'fn I decide to do some mainly work, i.e. left right, for a couple
 of hours, that's not a sport, because there's no score.


 
 

    
    George....
    
    	You are full of shit.
    
    Claybone

 >> Bear hunting with a bow and arrow is a sport. The bear appears to 
 >> agree with the rules and will eat the hunter if he wins.
    
    How does a bear "appear to agree"? 
    

RE                      <<< Note 123.120 by CSC32::GAULKE >>>

> If I ride my bike for 30 miles solo, that's not a sport, because
> there's no competitors and no rules.
>
> If'fn I decide to do some mainly work, i.e. left right, for a couple
> of hours, that's not a sport, because there's no score.

  Sounds like exercise, not sport.

  George

    
      George, do you work with chemicals?

RE        <<< Note 123.122 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!" >>>

> >> Bear hunting with a bow and arrow is a sport. The bear appears to 
> >> agree with the rules and will eat the hunter if he wins.
>    
>    How does a bear "appear to agree"? 
    
  If the hunter misses or wings the bear, the bear will often join in the
fight to the death instead of running away. Not always, but sometimes.

  The duck never seems to get into the competition but always tries to
run (i.e. fly) away. I would conclude that the duck never agrees to the
competition therefore it is not a sport.

  And to reiterate, the duck never wins but the bear sometimes does win
therefore the former is not a sport, the latter is.

  George

RE      <<< Note 123.121 by 8387::WADE "So, what's on your alleged mind?" >>>
>    George....  You are full of ...
    
RE        <<< Note 123.124 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!" >>>
>    George, do you work with chemicals?


  Arguing with Wade and Brydie is not a sport, they usually run away.

  George

    
    
     re: ...sounds like exercise..
    
    
    So, where the dictionary defines sport to be
    
    
      ..an active pastime, recreation, ...
    
    
    I should ignore that, because it's wrong?
    
     

    
    From the American Heritage Dictionary:
    
    	Sport n. 1. An active pastime; diversion
    		 2. A specific diversion usually involving
    		    physical exercise and having a set form
    	 	    and body of rules; a game
    		 3. Light Mockery
    		 4. One known for the manner of his acceptance
    		    of defeat or criticism: a good sport
    		 5. Informal: One who lives a gay, extravagant
    		    life
    		 6. Genetics: A mutation
    
    		V.
    		 1. To play; frolic
    		 2. To joke or trifle
    		 3. to display or show off
    
    		adj.
    		 Of, pertaining to, or appropriate for
    		 sport: a sport shirt
                              

    Gaulke
    
    Only in george's mind...
    

    
    	"I'm here for an arguement."
    
    	"No you're not!"
    
    Claybone

	What with all the S and LDUCs going on yunz musta drank your
	share of beer last night!


	billl

    
   >> Arguing with Wade and Brydie is not a sport, they usually run away.
    
      It's not so much running away as realizing the futility of arguing
      with someone who actually believes:
    
         o that there should be pros and free agents in college basketball
           and those pros and free agents need not be students.
    
         o that Japanese women's professional wrestling could very well be
           on the up and up.
    
         o that bears have a much more competitive nature than ducks and
           will consent to being ambushed on the odd chance that they might
           bag a hunter every now and again. It is still unclear how either
           one of these animals show consent. It would seem to anyone who
           used their head for something more than a hatrack that what
           these animals are exhibiting are nothing more than their basic
           'fight or flee' instincts. But if you want to belive that bears
           actually agree to a set of rules beforehand, you go ahead,
           George.
    
    

    
    
    yabbut, ducks are unwinged...
    
    
    
    
    OOPS, I MEANT UNARMED.   
        
    
    

    If the duck gets away unscathed, doesn't that count as a win for the
    duck?

 re: 123.132   MSBCS::MISTER_BRYDIE 


    
 >> It is still unclear how either one of these animals show consent. 
    

 Oh, they lay down and get this look in their eye....
    

  �		 6. Genetics: A mutation
  
Never heard that one before.  I wondered my father always said to me "Hey sport"
when I was a kid...

RE        <<< Note 123.132 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!" >>>

>         o that there should be pros and free agents in college basketball
>           and those pros and free agents need not be students.

  There already are pros in college. They are paid with tuition and perks.
Why not just relax the rules and pay them with money. You'd basically be
seeing the same guys with a few alumni thrown in.
    
>         o that Japanese women's professional wrestling could very well be
>           on the up and up.

  You were guessing before you saw the film. There was no way to know for sure
if they were competing according to some set of rules or if they were faking
it like they do in U.S. Wrestling.
    
>      It would seem ... that what
>           these animals are exhibiting are nothing more than their basic
>           'fight or flee' instincts. But if you want to believe that bears
>           actually agree to a set of rules beforehand, you go ahead,
    
  Like people, some processing goes on in the neural net of the bear's brain
that causes it to participate in the hunt. It will hunt the hunter just as
the hunter hunts the bear. Winner eats the loser.

  I've never heard of a duck stalking a hunter.

  Anyway, if you still don't believe that animals are capable of agreeing to
rules even through instinct, then you must agree with me that duck hunting is
not a sport. Neither is horse racing or dog racing. If you count instinct then
bear hunting, horse racing and dog racing seem to be sports because the animals
behave as if they agree to the rules. 

  In any case, I've never seen a duck that shows any sign of behavior that
would indicate having agreed to the rules and I've never heard of a duck
winning so it's not a sport. And no Mac, running away does not mean winning it
just means running away. 

  George

�  You were guessing before you saw the film. 
    
    Darn good guess, eh?  Amazing what a little deductive reasoning can do.
    
�And no Mac, running away does not mean winning it
�just means running away. 
    
    Tell that to the duck.

Claybone....


Right on dude.....

    
    	Rats!  Missed 'em again......
    
    Claybone

RE   <<< Note 123.139 by CAMONE::WAY "Aiming for pb cookies with fork marks" >>>

>Claybone....
>Right on dude.....

  Now there's a profound contribution to the discussion at hand.

  George

>  Now there's a profound contribution to the discussion at hand.
>
>  George

Just about as profound as the discussion itself....

    
    
    	Warning to DEcWindows folks, the nexted reply is a couple of
    hundred lines long.
    
    Kev
    

                           +-------------------+
                           |   F E N C I N G   |
                           +-------------------+

The following questions are addressed in this document:

General:
  1)  What sports and martial arts comprise fencing?
  2)  How do western and eastern fencing styles differ?        ** revised **
  3)  Which is the best weapon?

For Beginners:
  4)  Does it hurt?
  5)  What is the best weapon for a beginner to start with?
  6)  How long does it take to become good?
  7)  What qualities make a good fencer?
  8)  How much does it cost to get involved in fencing?

For Experts:
  9)  What kind of cross-training will help my fencing?
  10) Do flicks have the right-of-way?

Reference:
  11) How do I find a good fencing club?                       ** revised **
  12) What kind of equipment should I buy?
  13) Where can I order or buy equipment?                      ** revised **
  14) What organizations control fencing?                      ** revised **
  15) Bibliography
  16) Glossary 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

1)  What sports and martial arts comprise fencing?

    The Olympic sport of fencing is comprised of three weapons:  foil,
    epee, and sabre.  The rules governing these three weapons are
    determined by the FIE (Federation Internationale d'Escrime).
    Briefly, the FIE weapons are described as follows:

    Foil:  Descended from court sword training weapons of the 17th-18th
	centuries.  The foil has a thin, flexible blade with a square
	cross-section and a small bell guard.  Touches are scored with
	the point on the torso of the opponent, including the groin and
	back.  Foil technique emphasizes strong defense and the killing
	attack to the body.

    Epee:  Similar to the dueling swords of the mid 19th century,
	epees have stiff blades with a triangular cross section,
	and large bell guards.  Touches are scored with the point,
	anywhere on the opponent's body.  Unlike foil and sabre, there
	no rules of right-of-way to decide which attacks have precedence,
	and double hits are possible.  Epee technique emphasises timing,
	point control, and a good counter-attack.

    Sabre:  Descended from cavalry swords of the late 19th century,
	sabres have a light, flat blade and a knuckle guard.  Touches
	can be scored with either the point or the edge of the blade,
	anywhere above the opponent's waist.  Sabre technique emphasises
	speed, feints, and running attacks.

    The most popular of eastern fencing techniques is kendo, the Japanese
    "Way of the Sword".  Kendo is fought with a bamboo shinai, intended
    to resemble a two-handed Japanese battle sword.  Combatants wear
    armour, and strike to the top or sides of the head, the sides of the
    body, the throat, or the wrists.  Accepted technique must be
    observed, and judges watch for accuracy, power, and spirit.

    Other martial arts that include elements of swordsmanship are:

    Aikido -- self defence against armed and unarmed attackers.  Includes
	using and defending oneself against Japanese sword techniques.
    Arnis, Escrima -- stick fighting.
    Iaido -- the Japanese art of the draw.
    Kenjutsu -- the unadulterated Japanese martial art of the sword.
    Kung-fu -- a Chinese martial art that includes many sword techniques.
    Modern Pentathlon -- the "soldier's medley", a sport that recreates
	demands placed on a pre-20th century military messenger:  running,
	swimming, shooting, equestrian jumping, and epee fencing.
    Single Stick -- an ancestor of sabre fencing.
    SCA -- the "Society for Creative Anachronism", an organization that
	attempts to re-create the lifestyle of Medieval Europe, including
	jousts and tourneys.  Emphasizes heavy weapon and shield
	techniques, the use of armour, Florentine fencing, and fencing
	in the round.  Additional info on the SCA can be found in the
	newsgroup rec.org.sca.

2)  How do western and eastern fencing styles differ?

    There is a lot of room for debate on this question.

    Considering only FIE fencing vs. kendo, one can spot a few obvious
    differences in technique.  Kendo is a two-handed style used against
    armoured opponents in a two-dimensional ring.  FIE fencing, on the
    other hand, is a one-handed style used against unarmoured opponents
    on a one-dimensional strip (piste).  There are many resulting 
    differences in stance, movement, and defensive strategy.

    FIE fencing is more liberal when defining valid attacks, but more
    restrictive when defining valid defences.  A fencer needs only to
    contact his opponent's target area with sufficient force to score a
    point; style and technique are not relevant to the attack's
    validity.  Consequently, proper defence demands complete avoidance
    of the opponent's blade.  The onus is always on the defender to
    respond appropriately to the attack, or else he risks having his
    response ignored completely by the director or machine.

    Kendo is more liberal on the subject of defence, but is much more
    restrictive regarding valid attacks, partly due to limitations in
    armour coverage and manual judging.  There is also an assumption
    that by mastering attacks on limited targets, a kendoka should in
    principle be able to strike accurately at any chosen target in a
    real sword fight.  Kendo also has a strictly defined style which
    must be observed; judges watch not only for accurate touches, but
    sufficient strength behind the attacks, proper technique,
    motivation, intent, coordination of mind, spirit, and body, and a
    willingness and ability to continue attacking.  Defence is less of
    an issue, and can be as simple as muddling the clarity of the
    opponent's attack.  Some kendoka take the position that defence is
    irrelevant, although this is somewhat exaggerated.

    The difference in emphasis between offence and defence is
    philosophical, and is sometimes summarized by saying kendo (and
    perhaps Japanese martial theory in general) places a premium on
    destruction of the enemy, while personal survival is irrelevant.
    Western fencing philosophy, on the other hand, questions the value
    of victory if you don't survive to tell the tale.

    The kiai (yell) is a formalized and essential component of a good
    kendo attack, but it is also commonly used by more exuberant FIE
    fencers.

    Etiquette and formality is much more prevalent in kendo (and eastern
    martial arts in general) than in FIE fencing, and at times borders on
    the ritualistic.  Kendo has more gradations of skill level (ie.
    belts) has and two or three competitive levels based on rank that can
    make it easier to measure your progress and set goals.  FIE fencing
    competitions tend to be more open, and novices can sometimes find
    themselves matched against Olympic level fencers.  This is not
    necessarily a bad thing.

3)  Which is the best weapon?

    Such a question is an open invitation to religious warfare.
    Everybody loves to participate, but nothing is ever settled.

    If the question means "what kind of fencing is the most fun?" then
    the answer is: it depends what aspects of fencing you enjoy the most.
    If you are fascinated by technique, bladework, and tactics, you will
    probably get a lot of satisfaction from foil fencing.  More visceral
    fencers who want to experience the adrenaline rush of a fast,
    agressive sword fight will want to try some sabre.  Most epee fencers
    consider themselves practical, no-nonsense sword fighters who rely on
    as few artificial rules as possible.  Enthusiasts of more medieval
    combat styles, involving armour and heavy weapons, should consider
    joining the SCA or a kendo dojo.

    On the other hand, if the question means "which weapon is the most
    deadly?"  the answer will depend on a lot of factors, not the least
    of which are the skill of the combatants, the presence of armour, the
    military and cultural context, and the rules of the fight (ie. is
    this a street fight, a gentlemen's duel, or open field warfare?).
    Most swords are highly optimized for performance in a specific
    environment, and will not perform well outside it.  Comparing two
    swords from completely different historical contexts is therefore
    extremely difficult, if not downright silly.

    Then again, perhaps the question means "which style of fencing is
    the most realistic?"  It must be said that questions of realism have
    little relevance to an activity that has almost no practical
    application in the modern world other than sport and fitness.
    Historically, however, epees have the closest resemblance (among FIE
    weapons) to real duelling swords, and the rules closely parallel
    those of actual duels (sometimes being fought to only a single
    point).  Other martial arts with a high realism factor include
    kenjutsu and some aspects of SCA fighting.

4)  Does it hurt?

    Not if done properly.  A well executed fencing attack hurts no more
    than a tap on the shoulder.  Reckless and overly aggressive fencers
    can occasionally deliver painful blows, however.  Fencing *is* a
    martial art, so you should expect minor bruises and welts every now
    and again.  They are rarely intentional.

    The primary source of injury in fencing is from pulled muscles and
    joints.  Proper warm-up and stretching before fencing will minimize
    these occurences.

    There is a risk of being injured by broken weapons.  The shards of a
    snapped blade can be very sharp and cause serious injury, especially
    if the fencer doesn't immediately realize his blade is broken, and
    continues fencing.  Always wear proper protective gear to reduce
    this risk.  FIE certified jackets, britches, and masks are ideal, as
    they are made with bullet-proof fabrics such as kevlar.  If you
    cannot afford such extravagances, use a plastron (half-jacket worn
    beneath the regular fencing jacket), and avoid old and rusty masks.
    Always wear a glove that covers the cuff, to prevent blades from
    running up the sleeve.

    Fencing is often said to be safer than golf.  Whether or not this is
    true, it is an extraordinarily safe sport considering its heritage
    and nature.

    KENDO:  Although kendo attacks are executed with appreciable force,
    accurate attacks to the armour are not painful, although missed
    attacks can bruise.  Novices tend to be the best at making bruises.

5)  What is the best weapon for a beginner to start with?

    This question pertains to FIE fencing.  The choices are foil, epee,
    and sabre.

    Foil is the most common starter weapon.  It is an excellent weapon
    to begin with if you have no preferences or want to learn
    generalized principles of swordfighting.  Transitions to the other
    weapons from foil are relatively straight forward.  Foil is an
    abstracted form of fencing that emphasises proper defense, and
    cleanly executed killing attacks.  Historically it was a training
    weapon for the rapier and court swords, so it is well suited for the
    purposes of learning.  However, it is far from a simple weapon, and
    many experienced fencers return to foil after trying the others.

    Sabre can also be an effective starter weapon, for a few reasons.
    Like foil, it has rules of right-of-way to emphasize proper defense,
    and its de-emphasis of point attacks can be a relief to a beginner
    who doesn't yet have much point control.  Also, many low-level sabre
    competitions are still fenced dry, meaning that it can be the
    cheapest of all weapons to compete in (although electric sabre is
    definitely the most expensive weapon to compete in).  However, sabre
    differs from foil and epee in a few key respects that can reduce its
    effectiveness as a starter weapon if the fencer plans to try the
    others in the future.  Among these differences are the
    aforementioned de-emphasis of point attacks, and a different sense
    of timing and distance.

    Epee can sometimes be a good starter weapon for two reasons.  First,
    the rules are simple and easy to grasp, and second, the competition
    costs are lower, since no lame' is required.  However, the apparent
    simplicity of the sport can obscure its subtleties to the beginner,
    and make progress difficult later on.  Furthermore, the lack of
    right-of-way in epee can make transitions to the other two weapons
    difficult, if put off for too long.

6)  How long does it take to become good?

    There is a saying that it takes two lifetimes to master fencing.  By
    the time anyone has come close to "mastering" the sport, they are
    long past their athletic prime.  Some may feel that this is a
    drawback to the sport, but most fencers see it as a great strength:
    fencing never becomes dull or routine; there are always new skills to
    master, and new grounds to conquer.

    A dedicated novice who practices twice per week will be ready to
    try low-level competition in 3-6 months.  Competition at this point
    should be viewed as a learning aid, not as a dedicated effort to win.

    Serious attempts at competing will be possible after 2-3 years,
    when the basic skills have been sufficiently mastered that the
    mind is free to consider strategy.

    A moderate level of skill (eg. C classification, shodan) can take 3-6
    years of regular practice and competition.

    Penetration of the elite ranks (eg. world cup, A classification, 4th
    dan) demands three to five days per week of practice and competition,
    and usually at least 10-15 years of experience.

    Progress can be faster or slower, depending on the fencer's aptitude,
    attitude, and dedication.  Rapid progress normally requires at least
    three practices per week, and regular competition against superior
    fencers.

    The average world champion is in his late 20s to early 30s and began
    fencing as a child.  Kendo world champions are generally 6th dan.

7)  What qualities make a good fencer?

    There are many.

    On the athletic side, speed and endurance must rank foremost.  Other
    traits that can be exploited are strength, precision, and flexibility.

    On the intellectual side, a good mind for strategy and tactics is
    essential.  Quick reaction time is extremely important.  The ability
    to quickly size up your opponent and adapt your style accordingly
    is essential.

    Psychologically, a fencer must be able to maintain focus, concentration,
    and emotional level-headedness under intense conditions of combat.
    Stress management, visualization, and relaxation techniques are all
    helpful to putting in winning performances.

    As far as body type goes, height seems to be an advantage in epee,
    but not in sabre.  Small or thin people are harder to hit in foil.
    A long reach is always an advantage.

    It should be noted that left handers usually enjoy a slight advantage,
    especially against inexperienced fencers.  This may account for the
    fact that lefties make up 15% of fencers, but half of FIE world
    champions.

8)  How much does it cost to get involved in fencing?

    Beginner's dry fencing setup:  about $100 US
	Includes: cotton jacket, glove, dry weapon, mask

    FIE Competition setup:  about $500 - $1000 US
	Includes:  FIE 800N jacket & britches, FIE 800N mask, at least
           2 FIE (maraging) electric weapons, body cord, socks, glove,
           shoes, lame (foil & sabre only), sensor (sabre only).
	Note:  costs can be as much as halved by avoiding purchasing
	   FIE certified clothing and arms.  While such equipment is
	   required at national (Canada and Europe, but not USA) and
	   international levels of competition, most local tournaments
	   will overlook it.  If you use a cotton or synthetic knit
	   jacket, however, be sure to wear a plastron underneath.

    Kendo:  shinais run from about $25 (bamboo) to $250 (graphite).
	Kendogi and hakama (jacket and skirt) $100 - $400, depending on
	the quality.  Armour (men, kote, do, tare) runs from about $300
	(used) to $1500 and up, although it can usually be rented or
	borrowed from a club.

    Club costs vary, but are usually on the order of $50-$100 per year
    for each day per week of fencing.  Many clubs will provide or rent
    equipment to beginners.

9)  What kind of cross-training will help my fencing?

    The best training for fencing is fencing.  Few other sports use the
    same muscle groups, so this is a difficult question whose answer
    depends largely on what aspect of your training you really want to
    focus on.

    Cardiovascular fitness and leg strength always help, so anything that
    enhances these will be beneficial.  Cycling, swimming, and aerobics
    are good examples.  Running, sprinting, soccer, basketball, and
    similar sports can also be helpful, although some athletes dislike
    the stresses they put on the knees.  Racquet sports like tennis,
    badminton, squash, racquetball, and table tennis are also excellent,
    and will exercise your weapon arm and reflexes in addition to your
    legs.

    Many martial arts have physical and mental demands that are similar
    to fencing, and can improve both your fitness and your intellectual
    approach to the sport.  Technique and tactics very rarely translate,
    however.

    Weight training can help, if done properly, but the athlete must
    remember that flexibility, speed, and technique are more important
    than raw strength.  Endurance training should have priority over
    strength training or bodybuilding.

    Some fencers maintain that juggling improves reactions, hand-eye
    coordination, and use of peripheral vision.

    Many coaches and fencers suggest occasional fencing or workouts with
    your opposite hand, both to improve skill and balance your muscular
    development.

10) Do flicks have the right-of-way?

    A "flick" is an attack that is executed with a cutting motion
    followed by a sudden stop, so that the foible of the blade whips
    around a blocking parry or body part to score.  The attack is
    controversial for several reasons.

    The most important concern with flicks is that they challenge many
    commonly-held beliefs about what constitutes right-of-way in a
    fencing attack.  In particular, some fencers believe that flicks do
    not take the right-of-way because they begin out-of-line (ie.
    pointing away from the target) and often with a significantly bent
    arm.  Because of this, they feel that by counter-attacking into the
    flick, they should be awarded the attack on the preparation.  Such
    beliefs are descended from the incorrect notion that right-of-way
    demands an extended arm with the point aimed at the target.

    In actual fact, an attack begins when the arm STARTS its extension,
    and the point of the weapon is moving towards the target.  A phrase
    that is commonly heard is that the weapon must be "threatening the
    target".  This does not necessarily mean that it is aimed at the
    target, but that the scoring part of the weapon is on a trajectory
    that will hit the target if nothing is done to prevent it.  A blade
    must point at the target to threaten it if the fencer is thrusting,
    but if the blade action is a cut (which includes flicks) then the
    blade need not point at the target at all.  Instead, the arc of the
    blade (and more importantly for foil, the tip) must intersect with
    the target area.

    In a well-executed flick, the arm does extend and the point traces a
    smooth arc towards the target.  Therefore, it takes the right-of-way
    as soon as the arm begins its extension and the point starts moving
    forward.  A successful attack on the preparation must start BEFORE
    the final extension of the flick begins.  The same is true of any
    attack that begins out of line, whether it is a flick or not.

    A secondary concern with flicks is that some fencers dislike it
    because it is non-traditional and relies on blade properties that did
    not exist in the golden age of dueling.  Such concerns are of
    relevance to historical re-creations of fencing, such as one finds in
    stage fighting or the SCA.  The sport of fencing, however, is not a
    simulation of 17th century murder techniques, but a modern, dynamic,
    highly technological sport that honours those techniques that work
    today, not just the ones that worked a couple of centuries ago.
    Regardless of how one feels about the flick, it is a legitimate
    attack, and a very dangerous one in the hands of a skilled fencer.
    It is important for experienced fencers to know how to use it and/or
    defend themselves against it.

11) How do I find a good fencing club?

    Start with your local Provincial or Divisional fencing association.
    If you don't know how to find them, contact your national fencing
    body (see question 14).  The local association will be able to tell
    you about officially recognized clubs in your area.  Many
    universities and colleges also sponsor fencing clubs and teams that
    will often accept non-students as members.  You might also check out
    courses or camps offered by local community centers.  Once you have a
    list of potential clubs, you will want to evaluate them and your
    needs.  Desirable qualities vary, depending on your skill level and
    what you want to get out of fencing.

    Ask the following questions when selecting your club (if you're not
    sure what you want, "yes" is a good answer to all these questions):
    Does it have an active beginners' program?  Are there enough fencers
    of your own skill level?  Are there some fencers above your skill
    level?  If you don't have your own equipment, does the club provide
    it?  Does the club have ample electric scoring boxes and reels?  Does
    the club emphasize the same weapons that you are interested in?  Do
    club members compete regularly?  Does the club have a master or
    coach?  Has he/she had many competitive successes either fencing or
    coaching?  Can you get individual lessons and instruction?  At no
    extra cost?

    Lastly, atmosphere is important to any social endeavour.  Choose a
    club that makes you feel comfortable and relaxed without sacrificing
    the athletic spirit that is essential to progress.

    KENDO:  Seek a club or dojo that is affiliated with your national
    kendo federation.  Try to find a sensei who is at least 4th dan, if
    possible.

12) What kind of equipment should I buy?

    This FAQ does not endorse particular brands, but will point out some
    of the things to consider when purchasing equipment.

    CLOTHING: FIE 800N clothing is the most expensive available, and is
    required at the highest levels of competition.  It includes special
    fabrics (such as kevlar or ballistic nylon) around vital areas such
    as the chest, belly, and groin, and is highly resistant to punctures
    by broken blades.  Alternatively, you can purchase kevlar
    underclothes and wear regular cotton outerwear.  If not using 800N
    clothing, cotton or synthetic jackets should be utilised in
    conjunction with a plastron.  Most jackets are left- or
    right-handed.  Sabre fencers may wish to consider extra protective
    padding and elbow protectors.  Jock straps are helpful for men, and
    breast protectors are essential for women.  A glove for the fencing
    hand is essential; it should cover the sleeve cuff, and have an
    opening at the wrist for the body wire.  For the anal-retentive, FIE
    rules state that fencers must wear only white, and that skin must
    not show between the socks and pant legs.  For casual and beginner
    fencers, sweat pants or baseball knickers are reasonable
    alternatives to genuine fencing clothing.

    MASKS:  The best have FIE 800N bibs to protect the neck, but cost
    considerably more than the regular varieties.  For foil, masks should
    be well-insulated to prevent touches to the head from conducting to
    the lame' and registering as a touch.  Electric sabre masks must be
    conductive, on the other hand, to allow head touches.  Avoid old and
    rusty masks, and consider subjecting a used mask to a punch test
    before using/purchasing it.

    LAME'S:  Stainless steel is preferred, as they are much more corrosion
    resistant than older copper ones.  Your lame' should come to your hip
    bones, and be form-fitting but not tight.  Most lame's come in right
    and left-handed versions.  Regular rinsing or careful hand-washing of
    your lame' (especially immediately after a tournament or practice) will
    improve its lifespan.  Avoid folding, crumpling, or abrading it.

    WEAPONS:  Maraging steel blades are now required at the highest levels
    of competition.  They are about twice the price of regular blades, but
    are supposed to be more durable, and break more cleanly.  There are a
    large number of variables to consider when shopping for blades,
    including stiffness, length, durability, flex point, weight, balance,
    and (of course) price.  Which qualities a fencer prefers is largely a
    matter of taste.  The length and thread of the tang may also be an
    issue.  A wide variety of grips are available to epee and foil fencers,
    but choice is also a matter of preference.  Guards come in various
    sizes and weights.  Some fencers will also have preferences between
    2-prong and bayonet body cords and connectors.

    SHOES:  Fencing shoes are ideal, but expensive.  Indoor court shoes,
    volleyball shoes, and even wrestling shoes are good alternatives.

    KENDO: bamboo shinai are the most common, but an avid kendoka can go
    through one or two per year.  Regular sanding and oiling of the
    shinai staves will enhance its lifespan and reduce splintering.
    Graphite shinais cost 10 times as much as bamboo, but should last at
    least 10 years in recreational use, and they require little
    maintenance.  When purchasing armour, concentrate especially on your
    kote and men.  If buying used, watch for wear that manifests itself
    as softness on the top of the men and the wrist section of the kote.
    Also watch for missing padding over the knuckles.  If buying new,
    remember that you can buy individual pieces;  your money is best
    spent on quality men and kote, while you can get by with cheaper do
    (eg. fibreglass, rather than bamboo) and tare.

13) Where can I order or buy equipment?

    Most of the following businesses will mail you a catalogue if
    requested.  This FAQ does not endorse any of these companies.

    USA:

    Triplette Competiton Arms            Blade Fencing Equipment, Inc.     
    162 W. Pine St. 			 212 West 15th St.                 
    Mt Airy, NC 27030			 NY, NY 10011                      
    TEL: (919) 786-5294			 TEL: (212) 620-0114            
					 FAX: (212) 620-0116            
    George Santelli, Inc.
    465 South Dean St.			 American Fencers Supply           
    Englewood, NJ 07631			 1180 Folsom St.                   
    TEL: (201) 871-3105			 San Francisco, CA 94103           
					 TEL: (415) 863-7911
    Colonial Distributing		                                   
       Fencing Equipment		 Uhlmann International             
    PO Box 636				 Wolf Finck, Pres. USA Headquarters
    Cedarburg, Wisconsin 53012		 330 N. Fayette Drive              
    TEL: (414) 377-9166			 Fayetteville, GA 30214            
    FAX: (414) 377-9166			 TEL: (404) 461-3809

    The Fencing Post                     Zivkovic Modern Fencing Equipment
    2543 Monticello Way                  77 Arnold Road
    Santa Clara, CA 95051                Wellesley Hills, MA 02181
    TEL: (408) 247-3604

    CANADA:

    Fencing Equipment Calgary            Herb Obst Agency          
    2407 Bayview Place		         CP 788 NDG Station        
    Calgary, Alberta T2V 0L6	         Montreal, Quebec H4A 3S2  
    TEL: (403) 281-1384		         TEL: (514) 482-2140       
    FAX: (403) 281-0043		         FAX: (514) 485-9283

    BRITAIN:

    Blades                               Leon Paul           
    35 Edinburgh Drive			 14 New North Street 
    Staines, Middlesex TW18 1PJ		 London WC1N 3PW     
    TEL: 0784 255-522			 TEL: 071 405-3832    
    FAX: 0784 245-942			 FAX: 071 405-3834    

    SCORING MACHINES ONLY:

    Fencing Technologies                 Commodore Systems  
    P.O. Box 3154                   	 P.O. Box 22992     
    Iowa City, Iowa  52244-3154 	 Nashville, TN 37202
    TEL: (319) 337-4128			 TEL: 1-800-627-4903

    KENDO:

    Jukado, Inc.                         Kyoto Tozando          
    10126, Saint-Laurent boul.		 Mukomachi P.O. Box 27  
    Montreal, Quebec			 Kyoto 617 Japan        
    Canada H3L 2N7			 FAX 75-344-4719        
    TEL: (514) 387-6978
    FAX: (514) 387-7110

14) What organizations control fencing?

    Federation Internationale d'Escrime
    32, Rue La Boetie
    75008 Paris, France

    Amateur Fencing Association (Britain)
    1 Barons Gate
    33-35 Rothschild Road
    London W4 5HT
    Tel: 081 742-3032

    Canadian Fencing Federation
    1600 Prom. James Naismith Drive
    Gloucester, ON   K1B 5N4
    TEL: (613) 748-5633
    FAX: (613) 748-5742

    United States Fencing Association
    1750 East Boulder Street
    Colorado Springs, CO 80909-5774
    TEL: (719) 578-4511
    FAX: (719) 632-5737

    British Kendo Federation
    31 Woodstock Rise
    Sutton, Surrey
    GB-SM3 9JE

    Canadian Kendo Federation
    150 Lesmill Road
    Don Mills, Ontario
    M3B 2T5
    TEL: (416) 445-1481
    FAX: (416) 445-0519

    Kendo Federation of United States
    25600 Rolling Hills Way
    Torrance, California  90505

15) Bibliography

    This list has been compiled from suggestions by rec.sport.fencing
    readers, and is far from complete.

    Fencing references:

    Anderson, All About Fencing (Arco, 1970)
    Castello, The Theory and Practice of Fencing (Charles Scribner, 1933)
    Castello, Fencing (Ronald Press, 1962)
    Crosnier, Fencing with the Foil (Faber & Faber, 1951)
    Curry, The Fencing Book (?, 1984)
    Lukovich, Electric Foil Fencing, (Corvina Press, 1971)
    Nadi, On Fencing (G.P. Putnam, 1943)
    Palffy-Alpar, Sword and Masque (FA Davis, 1967)
    Manley, Compleate Fencing (Doubleday, 198?)
    Selberg, Foil (Addison-Wesley, 1976)

    Kendo references:

    Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei, Fundamental Kendo (Japan Publications, 1974)
    Kodansha, Kendo (?, ?)
    Sasamori & Warner, This is Kendo (Tuttle, 1982)
    Warner & Draeger, Japanese Swordsmanship Technique and Practice
	(Weatherhill, ?)

16) Glossary of terms:

    Fencing terms:
    ==============

    Attack:  an action that includes extension of the arm, a forward
	moving blade, and the threatening of the target with the scoring
	part of the weapon.
    Balestra:  a forward hop or jump, typically followed by an attack
	such as a lunge or fleche.
    Bayonet:  a type of electrical connector for weapons.
    Beat:  an attempt to knock the opponent's blade aside or out of line.
    Conversation:  the back-and-forth play of the blades in a fencing match,
	composed of phrases (phrases d'armes) punctuated by gaps of no
	blade action.
    Counter-attack:  an attack made against the right-of-way, or in
	response to the opponent's attack.
    Counter-parry:  a parry that is initiated by first coming around to
	the opposite side of the opponent's blade.  Eg. counter-sixte.
    Counter-riposte:  an attack that follows a parry of the opponent's
	riposte.
    Corps-a-corps:  lit. "body-to-body";  illegal physical contact between
	the two fencers during a bout.
    Coule':  an attack or feint that slides along the opponent's blade.
    Coupe':  also cut-over;  an up-and-down motion of the blade that avoids
	the opponent's parry.
    Cut:  an attack made with a chopping motion of the blade, landing with
	the edge or point (see Flick).
    Derobement:  avoidance of an attempt to take the blade.
    Disengage:  a circular movement of the blade that avoids the
	opponent's parry.
    En Garde:  fencing position;  the stance that fencers assume when
	preparing to fence.
    Envelopment:  an attack on the blade that sweeps the opponent's blade
	through a full circle.
    Fleche:  lit. "arrow";  an attack in which the aggressor leaps off his
	leading foot, attempts to make the hit, and then passes the opponent
	at a run.
    Flick:  a cut that lands with the point, often involving some whip of
	the blade.
    Florentine:  a fencing style where a secondary weapon or other
	instrument is used in the opposite hand.
    Foible:  the upper, weak part of the blade.
    Forte:  the lower, strong part of the blade.
    French Grip:  a traditional hilt with a slightly curved grip and
	a large pommel.
    Guard:  the metal cup that protects the hand from being hit.  Foils
	use small bell guards, epees use large bell guards, and sabres
	have a knuckle guard that wraps around the hilt to protect from
	cuts to the hand.
    Hilt:  the handle of a sword, consisting of guard, grip, and pommel.
    In Quartata:  an attack made with a quarter turn to the inside,
	concealing the front but exposing the back.
    Insistence:  forcing an attack through the parry, using strength.
    Italian Grip:  a traditional hilt with finger rings and crossbar.
    Lame':  a metallic vest/jacket used to detect valid touches in foil
	and sabre.
    Line:  an extended arm and blade that threatens the opponent;  also,
	the main direction of an attack.
    Lunge:  an attack made by extending the rear leg and landing on the
	bent front leg.
    Mal-parry:  a parry that fails to prevent the attack from landing.
    Maraging:  a special steel used for making blades;  tends to be stronger
	and break more cleanly than conventional steels.
    Neunte:  parry #9; blade behind the back, pointing down.
    Octave:  parry #8; blade down and to the outside, wrist supinated.
    Opposition:  a counter-attack or riposte that deflects or binds the
	attacking blade.
    Parry:  a block of the attack, made with one's own blade.
    Pasatta-sotto:  a lunge made by dropping one hand to the floor.
    Phrase:  a set of related actions and reactions in a fencing
conversation.
    Piste:  the linear strip on which a fencing bout is fought; approx.
	2m wide and up to 14m long.
    Pistol Grip:  a modern, orthopaedic grip, shaped vaguely like a small
	pistol;  varieties are known by names such as Belgian, German,
	Russian, and Visconti.
    Plastron:  a half-jacket worn over the weapon-arm side of the body
	for extra protection.
    Pommel:  a fastener that attaches the grip to the blade.
    Preparation:  the initial phase of an attack, before right-of-way is
	established;  also, an attack made on a fencer who is in
preparation.
    Prime:  parry #1;  blade down and to the inside, wrist pronated.
    Priority:  in sabre, the rules that decide which fencer will be awarded
	the touch in the event that they both attack simultaneously.
    Pris-de-fer:  an attempt to push the opponent's blade aside or out of
	line.
    Quarte:  parry #4;  blade up and to the inside, wrist supinated.
    Quinte:  parry #5;  blade up and to the inside, wrist pronated.
	In sabre, the blade is held above the head to protect from head
cuts.
    Redoublement:  renewal of an attack that missed or was parried, after
	a return to en-garde.
    Remise:  renewal of an attack that missed or was parried, in the same
	line as the original attack.
    Reprise:  renewal of an attack that missed or was parried, in a
different
	line to the original attack.
    Right-of-way:  rules for deciding which of two touches should be given
	precedence, in foil and sabre.  The attack has right-of-way over
	the counter-attack;  the riposte has right-of-way over the remise
	of the attack;  the counter-riposte has right-of-way over the
	remise of the riposte;  and so on.
    Riposte:  an attack made immediately after a parry of the opponent's
	attack.
    Seconde:  parry #2;  blade down and to the outside, wrist pronated.
    Septime:  parry #7;  blade down and to the inside, wrist supinated.
    Simultaneous:  in epee, two hits that arrive within 1/20 - 1/25 s of
	each other.  In foil and sabre, two attacks for which the
	right-of-way is too close to determine.
    Sixte:  parry #6;  blade up and to the outside, wrist supinated.
    Stop Hit:  a counter-attack that stops the attack from finishing.
    Three Prong:  a type of epee body wire/connector;  also an old-fashioned
	tip that would snag clothing, sometimes used in conjunction with dye
	markers to make it easier to detect hits in the pre-electric era.
    Thrust:  an attack made by moving the sword parallel to its length and
	landing with the point.
    Tierce:  parry #3;  blade up and to the outside, wrist pronated.
    Two Prong:  a type of body-wire/connector.
    Whip-over:  an invalid touch in sabre that results from the foible of
	the blade whipping over the opponent's guard or blade when parried.
    Whites:  fencing clothing.

    Kendo Terms:
    ============

    Bogu:  complete kendo armour, consisting of men, do, tare and kote.
    Bokken:  wooden practise sword.
    Budo:  martial way; martial arts in general.
    Chudan:  middle position; sword at waist level, point towards
	opponent's throat.
    Dan:  rank or grade.
    Do:  chest protector made of laquered bamboo and leather or fibreglas;
	a cut to the body.
    Dojo:  exercise hall or training room.
    Gedan:  low position; sword pointing towards ground (kenjutsu).
    Hakama:  pleated, divided skirt, usually cotton or cotton blend.
    Hasso:  side position; sword handle at face height and to one side
	(kenjutsu).
    Hayasuburi:  jumping or bouncing practise stroke.
    Ji-geiko:  free practise; sparring practise.
    Jodan:  high position; sword above the head, ready to strike down
	at the opponent.
    Kakari-geiko:  attack practise; one person provides openings, and the
	other attacks.
    Kamae:  posture or position.
    Kata:  series of ritual practise excercises performed by kendoka;
	required for grading.
    Katana:  steel sword.
    Kendo:  way of the sword.
    Kendo-gi:  long, heavy shirt with 3/4 length sleeves, usually cotton.
    Kendoka:  a practisioner of kendo.
    Kiai:  showing strong spirit by yelling from the abdomen.
    Kirikaeshi:  two-person practise where one person makes a series of cuts
	to the side of the head, and the other person blocks them.
    Kote:  padded glove/gauntlet;  a cut to the wrist.
    Maai:  combat distance - to position yourself relative to your opponent
	for safety and for offensive ability.
    Men:  helmet made of steel mask and quilted padding;  a cut to the
	top of the head.
    O-suburi:  very big practise stroke (almost to the ground).
    Saiumen:  cut to either side of the top of the head; also yokomen.
    Seiza:  formal kneeling position.
    Sensei:  teacher.
    Shiai:  match or contest.
    Shimpan:  referee.
    Shinai:  bamboo practise sword.
    Sonkyo:  crouched posture.
    Suburi:  practise stroke.
    Suriashi:  kendo footwork;  sliding steps on the balls of the feet
	with the right foot always in front of the left.
    Tare:  hip and groin protector.
    Tsuki:  thrust to the throat.
    Waki-gamae:  back position; sword behind the body pointing towards the
	rear (kenjutsu).
    Zanshin:  correct finishing posture/position/attitude after attack,
	demonstrating mental alertness, good guard, and correct position.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS:

Author:  Morgan Burke ([email protected])
Contributors: many helpful suggestions made by Suman Palit and Guy Smith;
	some fencing supply house addresses obtained from Greg Dilworth
	and Kevin Taylor; USFA address and some books suggested by Eric
	Anderson;  Kendo references supplied by Al Bowers, Drew Saunders,
	Steve Hick, and Robert Stroud;  a lot of kendo material supplied
	by Neil Gendzwill;  British sources supplied by Blaine Price.

(C) 1993 Morgan Burke
Permission is granted to copy and distribute all or part of this document
for non-profit purposes.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

My dad used to fence when he was in High School.  He went to Mount Herman,
well, it's Northfield-MountHerman now, but back then it was Mount Herman.

I still have his mask and foil.

Of course, nowadays everything is electrified to monitor touches.  Gone are
the days when it was a gentleman's honor.....


Good sport to develop quickness and agility.....

    
    	I used to fence with my Uncle.  Had to be careful with that
    	barbed wire though.....
    
    Claybone

    
    > He went to Mount Herman, well, it's Northfield-MountHerman now, 
    > but back then it was Mount Herman.
    
      Thanks for clearing that up. I was about to jump all over you for
      that one.
    

Then I'm sure 'Saw is glad that he anticipated your confusion.

The Crazy Met

|    > He went to Mount Herman, well, it's Northfield-MountHerman now, 
|    > but back then it was Mount Herman.
|    
|      Thanks for clearing that up. I was about to jump all over you for
|      that one.
|    

Well, I know that alums of that school get a little testy if you
don't put Northfield on the front, since they merged and became co-ed, 
especially the female alums.

My father was a year behind the late Forrest Tucker, who also went there. but
my dad's definitely not famous or anything, 'cept he was alive the last
time the Sox won the series....8^)


'Saw

without permission, from USA Today:

	CRICKET STRIPTEASE: Sushmita Sen, the 1994 Miss
	Universe, Sunday is schedule to wear and remove scarf-
	sized flags of the 12 participating countries at the opening
	ceremony of the World Cup, the Olympics of cricket. She is
	supposed to take the flags off one by one and hand each to a
	team captain at the tournament in Calcutta, India. Organiz-
	ers have not said what she will be wearing underneath.
	Many people in Calcutta, a conservative city of 10 million,
	are aghast. Others are titillated.

>the World Cup, the Olympics of cricket.

Does it include a javelin event?

Cricket, in its own way, is cool.

I watched a match for a long time one evening in Paris, and almost had it all
figured out.

I know one thing -- bowling (i.e. pitching) in cricket is just as hard as 
throwing a good curve in baseball, if not harder....


'Saw

Saw, you need a break ;=)

Crickett has all the intrigue of horseshoes. However, you can give a
sport no worse a slur than to compare it to baseball.

TTom

>Saw, you need a break ;=)
>
>Crickett has all the intrigue of horseshoes. However, you can give a
>sport no worse a slur than to compare it to baseball.

Well, alright let me explain.

I like baseball.  I used to LOVE baseball before realigning the division, hell,
before the divisions themselves.  Now I just like it.


When cricket first came on, I said UGHHHH, but there as NOTHING else on.
So, rather than lay there and toss and turn, I said, well, okay, I'll give this
a try.  

That's the way, as a kid, I discovered that I liked brocolli, by giving it a
try.

So, the more I watched cricket, the more I started to figure it out.  It wasn't
all that bad.

I could never quite get into it the way I'm into other sports, and I think
spectating at cricket is probably a lot like spectating at golf, only less
walking.  

I know from some English and Irish guys I know just how hard "bowling" is.
They tried to teach it to me, and I was miserable at it.  It'd be easier for me
to pitch in the majors than for me to bowl a cricket ball....


I could use a break.8^)

>   <<< Note 123.159 by HBAHBA::HAAS "Extra low prices and hepatitis too!~" >>>
>                        -< NASCAR >>> Cricket >>> MLB >-

Well, I'd almost give you that.  But over the past two years, NASCAR has become
more "sports entertainment" like wrasslin is, than a true sport, what with
predefined winners and all, and so yer comparin' apples and oranges...

NASCAR and Rasslin? Blasphemy!~

Just cause Jeff Gordon and Dale Earnhardt win all the time doesn't mean
it's fixed. No more than the NFL where the 'Boys and 'Niners take turns
winning.

Speaking of Gordon, while he may drive like a main's main, he shoots a
basketball like a girly mon. Lasted night at the Hornets game, he had a
little free throw contest with Muggsy. The closest he came was about 2
feet. Never even hit the rim!~

TTom

>Just cause Jeff Gordon and Dale Earnhardt win all the time doesn't mean
>it's fixed. No more than the NFL where the 'Boys and 'Niners take turns
>winning.

I wish MrT was here.  He'd back me up.

It's all fixed.  Go back and see some of the duels that were created (and
almost kilt a couple of drivers) when they kept yellows on until but one lap
was left on them super speedways.


>Speaking of Gordon, while he may drive like a main's main, he shoots a
>basketball like a girly mon. Lasted night at the Hornets game, he had a
>little free throw contest with Muggsy. The closest he came was about 2
>feet. Never even hit the rim!~

He drives like a wussy too.  He bangs more things than the Inseminator, and
all the other guys is just gettin' outta his way is all....


8^)

>It's all fixed.  

Like I've always said, I don't mind if'n it's fixed, I just wanna know
which way it's fixed. It'd save a lot of wear and tear.

I'd be careful, though, Saw. You're starting to sound a bit like Rusty
Wallace.

TTom

Turtle Races >>> NASCAR

College Basketball >>> MLB >>> NBA >>> WWF >>> NASCAR

NASCAR should be used as natural anesthesia in dentist's offices.

TEFKAR, I hereby apologize for all them nice things I said about you,
earlier.

You and the Soapbox Derby you rode in on ...

Sir Turtle

    
>>Speaking of Gordon, while he may drive like a main's main, he shoots a
>>basketball like a girly mon. Lasted night at the Hornets game, he had a
>>little free throw contest with Muggsy. The closest he came was about 2
>>feet. Never even hit the rim!~
>
> He drives like a wussy too.  He bangs more things than the Inseminator, and
> all the other guys is just gettin' outta his way is all....
    
    Just goes to prove that because you can make a left turn without
    using your directional that doesn't make you an ath-e-lete...
    
    glenn
    

>    Just goes to prove that because you can make a left turn without
>    using your directional that doesn't make you an ath-e-lete...

No, it makes you a Boston driver...

Unless you're at the Glen or Sanoma, cause then you gotta turn both ways
while sitting on your ass.

TTom

>anything >>> MLB

You're confused again, TTom.  MLB does not stand for Mother in-Law Bowling
(which in WVa is the same as Sister Bowling).  It stands for Major League
Baseball.

>TEFKAR, I hereby apologize for all them nice things I said about you,
>earlier.

I must have missed this.

My eight-month-old daughter gets the same effect as NASCAR without watching
by whipping her head back and forth.

You're bad mouthing my relations and you whip your daughters head back
and forth just cause she watches NASCAR.

And you got that family thing all scrambled, too. Mothers-in-law are not
the same as sisters. Hail, if'n you have any kinda sisters you don't need
to get married.

TTom

>You're bad mouthing my relations and you whip your daughters head back
>and forth just cause she watches NASCAR.

No, she does it herself.  At this point her IQ has developed to just about
the high end of the NASCAR fan range.

Barney videos >>> NASCAR

Now that's what I call some real home training. Teaching they kids to hit
theyselves. Cool!~

Now, this high end that she's developed. Is this a Ford, Chevy or
Pontiac. It's all in the rear spoiler.

TTom

Surprisingly enough, after getting past the EXCELLENT
swim suit layout in SPORT magazine, I found an article
entitled

	NASCAR Racing and Wrestling

Haven't read it yet.  I'll post some observations after
I do.��


'Saw