Conference hbahba::cam_sports

      Gambling is addictive just like the rich mans asprin,  but is Mike
    really an addict?  I don't think so.  I haven't heard of him losing
    everything including family. 
    
      To me that means he is under control.
    
      I like to gamble at gaming establishments, the golf course, playing
    pool, poker & etc..  Does this mean I'm outta control and should seek
    help?
    
      I say no.  I'm a nickel and dime (or beer/hole) kinda a guy, and I
    don't bet on everything/everyday like addicts do.  I may make 1 bet
    a week if that. The last bet I made was 2 weeks ago at a monster truck
    rally, and it was for $1.  It was a bet that this guys favorite truck 
    wouldn't win that night.  I won. Never saw the dollar though.
    
      Grant it that isn't betting $100k/hole or whatever the amount these
    guys were doing, but the "concept" is still the same.  THE WORD BET and
    the risk of losing/winning something.
    
      I say that gambling and sports do mix, especially if no "rules"
    (whatever they may be) aren't broken and one doesn't get addicted to
    where they lose touch with reality.
    
      Tim

    
    >>  Gambling is addictive just like the rich mans asprin,  but is Mike
    >>really an addict?  I don't think so.  I haven't heard of him losing
    >>everything including family. 
    
    >>  To me that means he is under control.
    
    But to many, the difference between being "in control" and being out of
    control is a very fine line.
    
    JMHO
    
    JaKe
    

It's all that morality crap left over from the RAYGUNS years....legislate
your rights and how to think....The dems don't care what you do as long
as you pay and pay and pay for it.......

mike 

    
    Re.-1
    
    I think you have it backwards. 
    
   > It's all that morality crap left over from the RAYGUNS
   > years....legislate your rights and how to think....
    

To me Sports and Gambling are 2 very different areas. I think of horse racing 
as gambling and card games i.e Poker, Blackjack as gambling, but events like 
the NBA finals the final 4, baseball should attempt to keep the players
and events as distanced from gambling as they can get. 

Mike you might call it the RAYGUN moral majority but I feel it ruins the sport
of the event. We all talk about how NBC would want a Charles/Jordan final and
the "MONEY" would be better. 

Jeff

    
    To expound on the 1/35 of Jordan's salary a little, it's even more of a
    pittance to Michael than that.  The $1000 that it translates into in
    Riggen$ is probably close to Jeff's house payment/rent.  To Mike, it's
    nothing.  It is truly disposable income.  If most of us in here lost
    $1000 we would feel some pinch, our life would be affected to varying
    degrees.  Outside of mediaq scrutiny, Mike doesn't have to change his
    lifestyle one bit when he loses  mil.
    
     brews

Lawrence Taylor on the Jordan gambling thang:

"Him losing 1 million is like a normal guy losing $100."


JD

    
      I keep hearing about how little a million dollars is to Mike.
     I don't give a damn if it's pocket change to him because to 
     a whole lot of people who thought the world of Michael, a mill-
     ion clams is one hell of a lot of money. Mike has lost his per-
     spective. He's forgotten. Forgotten the value of money, the value 
     of character and the value of respect. In short, he's a fool.
     I know it's not Mike's responsibility to save the planet. And
     he earned the money he should be able to spend it any way he
     wants. I'd just like to see him tell a room full of city kids
     who can't afford to go to college or some guy struggling to put
     food on the table or a family living in a shelter just how little
     a million dollars really is.

Unless you feel that Jordan has an obligation to be a role model, Ijust
don't see how .8 applies.

The Crazy Met

  
      TCM, it has little or nothing to do with being a "role model".
     My personal feeling is that if you are a successful black person
     you bear a certain responsibility to the community. This is
     especially true if you are a celebrity. Bill Cosby realizes this.
     Harry Belafonte, Cicely Tyson and several other too. Michael has
     that responsibility. I'm sure he does alot of things for charity.
     I'm sure he gives alot of his time, too. It just seems to me
     to be colossally stupid to piss away the kind of money that could
     have a positive and permanent affect on a lot of peoples lives.
     It ain't just about being a role model.
    
    

Tommy I agree with your points but it just ain't my business or anyone's
business to know how Mike conducts his personal life. It's a shame that
somebody feels it's my business to know and their business to report such.
Yes, Jordan could bend to public opinion and live his life like a Cosby
or others but I'll take him as is. I'm sure his rep kid won't tarnish
too much as said kids probably have dads who bet on a pony or two ot three.
A chance in the lottery etc.....

mike

    Garbage !!!!!  He donate's time and money to charities, and the bulls
    organization WHICH MIKEY HAS MADE also donates time and money to many
    charities that they would not have if MIKEY was not playing on there
    team.  Lets expand even more, would any of the other bulls be public
    figures in chicago if chicago bulls were a losing club.  And how much
    money and time do they all donate to charity that they may not have if
    they were a 20-62 ball club.
    
    I dont care if he loses 20Million a year gambling, He enjoys playing
    GOLF, and an occasional card game or trip to the casino with his
    FATHER.  Ocasionaly the stakes get a little high, of course we have no
    proof what so ever that it was really over a Million dollars.  So just
    because he's a Succusful BLACK athlete he has no business going to a
    casino with his farther, is being a role model more important then
    spending time with his family and friends regardless of what they enjoy
    doing on his personal time.  This subject is getting old, people could
    use there engery into helping people rather then raggin on people.
    
    							MairB

    
       M_Air, with all due respect, you defend virtually everything 
      Mikey does in your own grammatically inimitable way. At the 
      very beginning of the note that you're ranting and raving 
      about I said "My own personal feeling..." If "my own personal 
      feeling" doesn't jibe with your own personal feeling, that's 
      life. I think Mike is a fool, a sucker and a chump who should 
      hang his head in shame.
    

	Good ol' M_Air.  As predictable as the sun rising in the morning.
	Or is it ol Nathan Air Detroit Jordan that rises in the morning?

	I think we should come up with a reason to nominate Mikey for
	Sainthood.  They could beatify him for his good works of MAKING
	the Bulls (but last time I looked the team existed before Jordan)
	and for his good works and charity.

	And they can Canonize him for his miracle shots. 

	And then on the day The Pope is gonna give Mikey that coveted
	Sainthood Champeenship Ring, Mikey can dis His Holiness and
	hit the links to lose some money.

	After which we can all have a Mikey Lovefest where we can
	worship His Airness in orgiastic warmth and love....


Sounds like a plan,
'Saw

    
    Air Nathan has never, ever, ever turned down a chance to be in the
    limelight.  He's never, ever turned down a chance to be depicted as a
    role model (I wanna be  like Mike...), he's never turned down a chance
    to get his mug on anything from ant traps to blimp rudders.  In doing
    so, he's made himself into a person that is in the public eye, and
    is considered as a role model (I wanna be like Mike).  He's chosen this
    lifestyle.  No one has ever put a gun to his haid and forced him into
    making endorsements or anything.  He's made his bed, and he has to lie
    in it.  He's praised for zillions of things.  He, and his zealot fans,
    should be big enough to take the criticism and to admit that its stupid
    to do things like gamble away millions.  
    
    He, and his agents, have made the image that is Air Nathan.  When Air
    Nathan does something to tarnish that image, Air Nathan has NO ONE to
    BLAM but himself.  
    
    JD

    as expected I dont thinks he's a saint and he could proberbly do better
    things with his money.  But you see, I spend some money on the lottery
    and I dont pay enought attention to the environment, I eat faty foods,
    I voted poorly :-), but none of this is anyone business but my own.  My
    wife likes to play bingo, but that dont make the paper and nobody
    bitches about her not giving the money to charity. (Actually I guess
    bingo money goes to the church and Boys club so it is charity) :-)
    
    Bottom line is a person (yes hes a person) who happens to play a
    professional sport went out for a night with his father and it makes
    the press, I just cant beleive the the Media and some Fans actually 
    fault a person (there I go again calling him a person) for spending
    time with his friends and family.  
    
    I guess what it comes down to is some people never have anything good
    to say and feed off anything that they can to say something bad and or
    negetive about certain people.  He's not a gawd, and hes not a saint,
    weather you feel he should be a better role model for some kids is fine
    but I still cant get over the fact that he was simply out with his 
    father and it makes the press.
    
    Now we all know about the 50 or 60K he gave to this slim guy but if in
    fact he paid out in excess of 1million dollars to anyone there would be
    some sort of bank transaction to prove it, and if there was such a
    transaction some slimeball in the media would have dug it up.  Im not
    much for beleiving the enquirer or star so untill someone is found or
    proved guilty I still consider them innocent, I guess its from poor
    upbringing that I look for the good in people first.
    
    								MaB

    
    
           Look,some form of Gambling is legal in 50 of the 51 states,
    Utah being the only non comformant. I count Canada as the 51st state
    :-)  What the man does in his own time is his own business. He does
    give to charity and he does give back to the community. I go to the
    track at least 3 times a month and play poker every weekend, damn
    I hope my my five year old daughter Danielle don't go and kill a
    classmate cuz her dad's a bad role model.
    
    Chappy

Welcome to the Real World, M_Air...

First off, go back an re-read JD's note.  The fact that it made the media
is because Mikey chose to make himself a public figure.  When you make
yourself a public figure, even your bowel movements are fair game.

The reason we don't give two hoots about your wife playing bingo is that
your wife isn't a public figure.  She's not on TV shilling gynalotrimin,
or bread, or Rice-a-Roni, or playing in the French Open tennis tournament.
If she was, and if she had a fat contract with Nike, we'd be interested
in her bingo jones....  very interested...



Second, why would there be ONE bank transaction of million dollars?   Mikey
has basically pissed away 10-15 grand at a clip playing golf, rolling the
dice, etc etc etc.   It might take a while, but it adds up to a million
after a while.


Mikey's got the jones, and it's good for him he's got mega-millions to play
with.


Ol' Air Nathan.... I'm rollward.....


'Saw

Chappy,

Like I just told M_Air about his wife, you ain't even small potatoes on
the public figure scale.

Now, if you were shilling Preparation H, or maybe Cruex, or complaining
about your denture adhesive, then we'd probably look at your gambling
habits much more closely.  

But, unfortunately for you, you work for the company with the new Burgundy
logo.....


[many 8^)]


'Saw

I don't see what's all that mind bogglin.

The facks of this case are that there are 2 checks, each for $100K.  No
one - not Jordan, not the Bulls, not his agent - denies that at least
this much changed hands. 

What's happened is that Jordan has sold himself out. Now he and his fans
are crying cause he can't have it both way: the money and the privacy.

If'n Jordan wants to return to "civilian" status, he should retire and
continue his no media campaign. Tell everyone it's none of their
business. Of course, he'd have to give up the bucks, which he's clearly
not willing to do.

TTom

    
    JD,
    
    Sorry but the "nit Police" has just awarded you a whopping "WRONG!"!!!
    
    Mikey turned down a publicity opportunity only lasted year when he was
    invited to da White House!  Doesn't a photo op present itself there
    too?
    
    I remain,
    thinking Flounder would say
    "This *IS GREAT*!!!!!
    ;^)
    Kev
    

    
    
    
          I see what your saying Saw, but him being a public figure
    shouldn't have to make him any more perfect or imperfect than you or I.
    
      He likes gambling, like I like gambling. It gives some people a rush
    like going to an Art museum gives people a rush and spending millions
    of bucks  on a stupid piece of canvas. If he was just gambling or
    drinking all his money away I think it is a problem. But he does give
    back to the community.Just with the commercial I wanna be like Mike it
    puts more kids into Sports and keeps them out of drugs and gangs.
    
    BTW 4 of my Jr High school teachers (public figures) Play cards with me
    every weekend. :-)
    
    Chappy

    
      Well put, TTom. You can't on the one hand be the star of your
     own "Be like [me]!" commercial and on the other hand moan "I
     vant to be alone." 
    
      And I'd think anyone who gambled away a million samolians is 
     a fool (can you hear me Leonard Tose?). For me, it's not some
     smear campaign. I really think it's idiotic to gamble that kind of 
     dough. And yes, I like to place a wager now and then but my bets
     couldn't change my life much less the lives of countless others.
     Another peripheral issue seems to be Mike's habit of associating 
     with people who aren't out to do him any good. First the coke dealer
     and now this monkey with the book. Smarten up, Mikey.

    
    I think there is a big difference between public employees and public
    figures.

The big todo over the trip to Atlantic City was not that Jordan was 
at a casino; rather it was the reports that he left very late and had a game
the next day that was the issue.

The Crazy Met

    >> I wanna be like Mike it puts more kids into Sports and keeps 
    >> them out of drugs and gangs.
    
       Do you really believe that, Chappy?

  Here's my 2 cents,

  Lately, I've been gettin real turned off by a lot of pro sports figures
  and some commercials on TV. Things like chargin for autographs or how
  about the Barkley/Nike commercials that go something like:
	I'm paid to wreck havoc on the court.
	I'm not paid to be a role model.
	Don't ask me to raise your children.
  Well, that's all very true. He's paid to play basketball and he doesn't
  have to be a role model if he doesn't want to and raising children is a
  parents responsibility first. **However, the fact is that he's in a very 
  unique position where he can be a role model if he wants to and he can 
  make a difference in the lives of some young people if he wants to.**
  But with many successful pro atheletes, they choose not to. To me this
  comes across as very selfish and self centered. But maybe this is just
  all a reflection of our society. Whether they care or not, children do 
  watch these pro atheletes and do learn from them. And I'm afraid all they 
  are learning is to look out for yourself first and to hell with the everbody
  else.

  And now we have the God of basketball, who seems to be in every advertisement,
  commercial and billboard in the world urinating away millions of bucks.

	Keith_who's_turned_off_by_the_whole_thing_and_doesn't_plan_to
		watch_any_more_playoff_games

�    Air Nathan has never, ever, ever turned down a chance to be in the
�    limelight.  
    
    Yes he has and you criticized him heavily for it.  He refused to have
    his picture taken with the US President.
    
�    should be big enough to take the criticism and to admit that its stupid
�    to do things like gamble away millions.  
    
    Do I sense a value judgement here?

     >> -< Does anyone else share my opinion ? >-
    
        For the most part, I do. I think the "I'm not a role model"
        campaign is/was a good idea but the fact of the matter is that
        it's not Charles' or Mike's or Ted Bundy's decision whether 
        or not they're role models. It's the decision of all those kids
        that look up to them. Maybe, the "I'm not a role model" comm-
        ercial will convince kids to pick better idols but probably not.
        But it isn't being a role model that I have a problem with about
        Jordan and his gambling jones. It's his inability to realize the
        tremndous amount of good he could do and the tremendous amount of 
        responsibilty he has. He's got incredible fame. He's got incredible
        fortune. Those things come with an incredible price.

�When you make
�yourself a public figure, even your bowel movements are fair game.
    
    I disagree.  A line has to be drawn somewhere even if you are a
    household name.
    
�The reason we don't give two hoots about your wife playing bingo is that
�your wife isn't a public figure.  
    
    Now there is a sad but true statement about our society.  Let's just
    pretend that MAir's wife is losing half or her hubbie's paycheck
    playing Bingo.  We don't care cuz we don't see her on TeeVee.

    
    Re .28
    
>�    Air Nathan has never, ever, ever turned down a chance to be in the
>�    limelight.  
    
>    Yes he has and you criticized him heavily for it.  He refused to have
>    his picture taken with the US President.
    
    And didn't that buy him even more press time than actually going ever
    would have?  B^)
    
    Joe

|�When you make
|�yourself a public figure, even your bowel movements are fair game.
|    
|    I disagree.  A line has to be drawn somewhere even if you are a
|    household name.


Yes, and no.  I'm not saying it's right but the media doesn't always
draw the line.  And the media today is ruthless, figuring that the public
will be more interested in someone's sexual proclivities than their
ability on a basketball court.

Today, people like Babe Ruth would be drawn and quartered in the press.


But all of that aside, the way the "press game" is done today, Mikey is
a public figure, and the microscope of the press will be looking at
every aspect of his life.   Regardless of what he might think, he HAS to
take that into consideration....


'Saw

    Someone has ad's with kids about "I wanna be like Mike" isn't setting
    himself up to be a role model?
    

                       
    The continual problem I have with the "role model" argument is that it
    *will not work*.  No matter how much any of us or the media want it to
    be so, you cannot say on one hand that we'll put a guy (or we'll allow
    him to put himself; semantics) in a position of adoration due to his
    athletic prowess, but on the other hand we'll require or expect him to
    be morally upright.  That's an illogical, losing proposition, right out
    of the chute.  Always has been, always will be.  Complain about it if
    you must, but it will not change.  I honestly don't even see the point
    in debating the issue, because it's debating human nature.
    
    With that said, on the other side of the coin, in fairness a guy can't
    expect to have every thing he does excused just because he's famous, 
    either.  Equal standards.  I agree with Tommy that Michael Jordan is 
    a fool for gambling away millions of dollars (if indeed he is).  Not 
    because he's a role model, not because he's black, not because he's 
    in the spotlight, but because that's just plain stupid.  Even relative 
    to his tremendous income.  That's *not* normal, folks.  It is definitely 
    compulsive, sick behavior that you just don't see with rich people 
    just because they're rich.  It's legal and its his business (meaning
    that I'd just as soon not know about it or even really care), but it's
    still sick, if true.
    
    glenn
     

First off, once you become a public figure, you give away some
privacy.  That's a fact, and is believe it or not, part of the 
package.  It is the norm.  In fact, there have been law cases and
judgements which have seen public figures lose lawsuits because it
was deemed they were in the public eye.

Most of us aren't in the public eye, so no one cares what we do.

If Mike was drinking heavily, instead of gambling, don't you think
there would be a backlash?  And couldnt' the same arguements be
used? (It's legal, he's of age, blah...?)

And yes, he declined the white house opp.  But he hasn't had a 
history of shunning the public eye, has he?

Perhaps Air Nathan just thinks that he's above it all?

JD

SNL is in summer re-runs, otherwise I'd expect them to do a commercial
called "I Wanna Be Like Mike", and have him shooting craps with the kids,
helping a kid pull the arm on a slot machine, hitting the roulette tables,
playing blackjack....

Actually, it'd be pretty funny.


'Saw

    
> First off, once you become a public figure, you give away some
> privacy.  That's a fact, and is believe it or not, part of the 
> package.  It is the norm.  In fact, there have been law cases and
> judgements which have seen public figures lose lawsuits because it
> was deemed they were in the public eye.

    Right, but so what?  All you're telling us is that we live in a free
    country, and the press has the right to print just about whatever they
    see fit, however sleazy.  There's no argument here.
    
> Perhaps Air Nathan just thinks that he's above it all?
    
    Why do you say this?  I've heard very little from his camp, not that
    you wouldn't expect him to defend himself.  Basically he's clammed up.
    Usually it's only the self-righteous sports media that gives a damn about
    that, and I wonder why?  Because in addition to abusing the freedom of 
    the press, they want instant, automatic access, served right up.  On
    this one point I don't blame Jordan because if he talks, he loses.
    
    glenn
    

�    Someone has ad's with kids about "I wanna be like Mike" isn't setting
�    himself up to be a role model?
    
    Depends on what role you consider him to be modelling.  If I wanna be
    like Mike, I wanna be able to soar through the air in the NBA.  I don't
    look much deeper at it than that and I'm not sure kids do either.

�It is the norm.  
    
    But does that make it right?

                       
   > The continual problem I have with the "role model" argument is that it
   > *will not work*.  No matter how much any of us or the media want it to
   > be so, you cannot say on one hand that we'll put a guy (or we'll allow
   > him to put himself; semantics) in a position of adoration due to his
   > athletic prowess, but on the other hand we'll require or expect him to
   > be morally upright.  
    
     Not to get sidetracked because the discussion is not about role models
     it's about Michael Jordan, degenerate gambler, BUT are we really asking
     that they be 'morally upright'? Aren't we willing to accept that we
     are all just human and we all have flaws? Isn't what would be nice is
     that these guys execise a modicum of common galldang sense? Is that
     too much to ask?
    
    > That's an illogical, losing proposition, right out...
    
      We're talking about little kids idolising these guys not Vulcans.
      Little kids don't always exercise the best of logic. There's a 
      reason why shoe companies pay these guys millions to wear and
      endorse their shoes.
     
    

    Considering the amount he's supposedly lost, the jingle should
    be:
    
    	I want to bet with Mike!
    
    Mike

    	>> I want to bet with Mike!
    
           Thanks, Mike. Now either JD or Saw are going to compose one
           of them danged song parodies that I love so much.

Tommy has a really good point.

Lots of little kids are totally swayed by what they see on TV.  When I
was a kid I thought that PF Flyers really would make you run faster and
jump higher.  That's what the ads said.

Nowadays, they have that show on HBO to help debunk the commercials.  It's
a pretty good show and it airs every month or two dealing with new ads.


So, if a kid doesn't have a parental role model (ie. my mom and dad told
me i was slower then Rich Gedman and that sneakers wouldn't help that fact)
then they can be very easily swayed.


'Saw

Whatever it takes to keep you happy, Tommy :-)

The Crazy Met

|    	>> I want to bet with Mike!
|    
|           Thanks, Mike. Now either JD or Saw are going to compose one
|           of them danged song parodies that I love so much.


Tommy, you're outta luck on this one, bud, because I don't know how
"I Wanna Be Like Mike" goes....

I'll try harder next time, I really will....8^)


'Saw

    Kids are smarter than you think.

    Was anyone else a kid when Namath got hit with gambling allegations?  I
    remember thginking at the time, who cares?  Kids are smart enough to
    know what's real, what isn't, and who is a role model.
    
    brews

    
    I also remeber Joe having an interview while shooting pool saying if he
    wants to go out with the ladies and have a few cocktails, so be it.
    It's my life, and I'll do WTF I want.
    
    When I was a kid and saw that, I thought he was basically doing it
    Joe's way and it was part of his personality. The Panty hose commercial
    was a totally different matter.
    

And Brews - Namath got RAILEd by the Press, by fans, etc. - Just like
Mikey is now.  Joe weathered it.  Of course, Joe Namath was NEVER
held up as a role model (at least from what I remember growing up
in NY) - he was a womanizer, etc...

Whatever.  Is the issue gambling, or Air Nathan's image?  To me
its his image.  Personally, I'd like to see Air Nathan Gamble 
every cent he's ever made away, just because of the comical 
reaction Air Nathan wannabes would have.  

It seems to me that the big arguement is that Po' Nathan should
be left alone.  And again, I'd love it if he became the most
private person on earth.  But he won't.  He loves the exposure,
and he loves the millions.  And because of that, everytime he
does something spectacular - he'll get zillions of lines of press -
and everytime he does something that doesn't fit HIS image (I wanna
be like Air Nathan...) - he'll get zillions of lines of press.  And
that's how it should be.  

And Air Nathan has nothing to worry about.  First, Nike won't let
any real bad press hit their biggest meal ticket - the one human
who forces them smart kids to get their equally smart parents to
buy shoes at obscene prices just to 'fit' in with their buddies.  And
the NBA won't allow it either.  Air Nathan don't need to worry.  But
he should be man enough to handle some pressure and criticism.  

He gets upset whenever he's criticized - as if he alone should 
be above criticism.  Please.  

JD

Kids are not that smart.

As someone who was going to be a teacher, I had an opportunity to see first
hand just how impressionable they are.  If they hear something over and
over enough times, from a source that has the slightest hint of
authority, they'll believe.   The TV, Ellison's "Glass Teat" has become
a powerful force in our society today, and we all know how much damage
TV (the wrong kind of TV) can do to kids.

'Saw

     > Aren't we willing to accept that we
     > are all just human and we all have flaws? Isn't what would be nice is
     > that these guys execise a modicum of common galldang sense? Is that
     > too much to ask?                
    
    That's fine, and I can't disagree that it would be nice, or that we 
    should be able to ask for that much.  So what is your proposal? 
    Athletes not meeting this standard, committing the sins of the variety 
    that Michael Jordan has recently been found guilty of (including legal
    gambling at Atlantic City), should be suspended for an indefinite
    period?  Shouldn't be legally allowed to make commercials?  I just
    don't see any way to legislate common sense.  I might not like it, but
    complaining about it is just so much whistling in the wind.  What it 
    ultimately boils down to is can we still stomach watching the athletes 
    for what they're paid to do?  In most cases, with most people, I 
    suspect the answer is yes.
    
    >> That's an illogical, losing proposition, right out...
    >
    >  We're talking about little kids idolising these guys not Vulcans.
    >  Little kids don't always exercise the best of logic. There's a 
    >  reason why shoe companies pay these guys millions to wear and
    >  endorse their shoes.
        
    I think you've misunderstood.  I'm not asking that the kids think this
    through.  It's illogical for *adults* to assume that because someone is 
    being paid a lot of money to play basketball that they're going to be 
    good people too.  Regardless of whether it would be good for the kids 
    if they were.  Perhaps Charles Barkley should go a step further and say
    that not only shouldn't you let your kids be raised *by* me, but rather
    you should protect your kids from *the likes of* me.
    
    glenn
    

>And Brews - Namath got RAILEd by the Press, by fans, etc. - Just like
>Mikey is now.  Joe weathered it.  Of course, Joe Namath was NEVER
>held up as a role model (at least from what I remember growing up
>in NY) - he was a womanizer, etc...


Amen.  You didn't have commercials saying "I Wanna Be Like Broadway Joe"...


'SAw

    
>>And Brews - Namath got RAILEd by the Press, by fans, etc. - Just like
>>Mikey is now.  Joe weathered it.  Of course, Joe Namath was NEVER
>>held up as a role model (at least from what I remember growing up
>>in NY) - he was a womanizer, etc...

> Amen.  You didn't have commercials saying "I Wanna Be Like Broadway Joe"...
    
    C'mon.  Joe did all the commercials but because he was up front about
    his bad-boy image he wasn't a "role model" but rather was a hell of a
    guy?  What a crock...
    
    glenn
    

The obvious reason why wanna be like didn't go to the White house was because
there was no cash in it for him. We all know that Mike thinks mostly of Mike and
maximizing Mike's revenue stream. That's why I can't believe he's so stupid as
to bet millions on golf...Not that I don't believe that he did because the
evidence provided makes it pretty apparent that he wagered huge sums on a golf
game but that he's so stupid as to think that it wouldn't be made public....

Dumb, Nathan, dumb... 

If be like nathan detriot didn't want to assume role model stature he would have
graciously refused to put his mug every where it was possible, same applies for
Sir Chuckles...

Dale Murphy is what a sports role model should be....

Greed does funny things with people...did anybody else watch day 1 with the
story about the Indians who became wealthy as a result of their kids getting
killed in an accident?

Metz

re: Namath versus Jordan

One should remember that the league did step into Joe's private life.
The NFL made him sell his part of the bar that he opened ostensibly
because one of his partners was associated with gambling.

The NBA could invoke the "best interests of the sports" stuff and have
Jordan swear off gambling but just like Nike, they don't want to
jeopardize their meal ticket. 

Is it time to promote Shaq yet?

TTom

    
> One should remember that the league did step into Joe's private life.
> The NFL made him sell his part of the bar that he opened ostensibly
> because one of his partners was associated with gambling.
    
    And all bleary- and teary-eyed Joe "retired", saying that the NFL
    couldn't rule his life.  But like Jordan, he couldn't walk away for the
    sake of saving his privacy.  Namath was no saint...
    
    glenn
    

Namath had his commercials, but he wasn't out shilling himself to
little kids as someone to "wanna be like".

Truth be told, my impression was that he didn't give a shit about little
kids 8^)


Metz hit the nail on the head.  Mikey is a self-centered person, and
unless Mikey's gonna get something out of it, well......


'Saw

Glenn -

The reason I respect Chuckles more than Air Nathan is that Chuckles
speaks his mind - the hell with Nike or whomever.  Air Nathan clams
up cuz he's too chicken to tell folks to go to hell.  If he did
that, like Chuckles, he'd make his case clear.

But old Air Nathan seems to want it all.  Superstar.  Riches.  Face
everywhere.  A legion of Wannabes.  A connection with being a role
model (hey, its there, like it or not, and I agree, he shouldn't
be one).  

JD

 >> That's fine, and I can't disagree that it would be nice, or that we 
 >> should be able to ask for that much.  So what is your proposal? 
 >> Athletes not meeting this standard, committing the sins of the variety 
 >> that Michael Jordan has recently been found guilty of (including legal
 >> gambling at Atlantic City), should be suspended for an indefinite
 >> period?  

    Oh no. Glenn's on his role model soapbox[isfh]. No Glenn, I'm not 
    trying to legislate common sense never said I was. I just said that 
    we're not expecting folks to be "morally upright", whatever that means, 
    just that they use their heads for something besides a hatrack and
    that shouldn't be asking for too much.
            
    >> I think you've misunderstood.  I'm not asking that the kids think this
    >> through.  It's illogical for *adults* to assume that because someone is 
    >> being paid a lot of money to play basketball that they're going to be 
    >> good people too.  
    
       I don't think many adults assume that you're being a good basketball
       player means anything more than that you play basketball well. I know I
       don't. However, cashing in on the adulation of youngsters carries with 
       it some burdens. If you don't like it, there *are* options.
    

    So what's so stupid about betting money you have and in amounts that
    won't effect your standard of living?
    
    Geez, some of you guys are starting to sound like Dan Schneider when he
    made an expert medical observation about Wade Boggs from in front of a
    13" TV screen.  Yeah, you know all about what makes Mike tick.
    
    As for Charles would tell them to go to hell and Mike is just clamming
    up -- well, Mike is getting his message across much better than
    Charles.  Mike is hitting the media where it hurts the most, Charles
    keeps giving them what they want -- material to print/air.

      >> If you don't like it, there *are* options.
    
         By that, I meant if *players* don't like it.
    
    

>  So what's so stupid about betting money you have and in amounts that
>    won't effect your standard of living?
 
	Negative publicity...If be like Air nathan wants to keep the revenue
stream full he's stupid risking the negative publicity....I'm sure the IRS will
be delving a little deeper into be likes finances now as well.

Metz
   

                                                                        
    >   I don't think many adults assume that you're being a good basketball
    >   means anything more than that you play basketball well. I know I
    >   don't However, cashing in on the adulation of youngsters carries with 
    >   it some burdens. If you don't like it, there *are* options.
    
    My point, I guess, is that in our society today (of which sports are
    just a part), there are apparently very few burdens imposed on "role
    models" indeed.  I certainly don't see many.  Athletes seem to stretch 
    the limits of what you would think would be in their own best interests 
    to keep under control, and if anything just come away with just more 
    publicity and riches.  Look at the defenses of Charles Barkley for 
    "speaking his mind", etc., no matter how asinine or outrageous the 
    expressed opinion.  This is just the reality of the situation.  The 
    only option I can see is just to shut off the game (as was suggested 
    by someone several back), and thereby not contribute to it.
    
    What are these burdens or options you suggest, that can actually work?
    
    glenn
      

�The TV, Ellison's "Glass Teat" has become
�a powerful force in our society today, and we all know how much damage
�TV (the wrong kind of TV) can do to kids.
    
    I think you've been listening to too much Tipper Gore.

|�The TV, Ellison's "Glass Teat" has become
|�a powerful force in our society today, and we all know how much damage
|�TV (the wrong kind of TV) can do to kids.
|    
|    I think you've been listening to too much Tipper Gore.


"I don't think so, Tim".....


If you look at the amount of hours per day the average American watches
the tube, it HAS to be an influence.   Ellison hit the nail on the head.

While I don't believe in being PC about this whole thing, there are
studies that show violent behavior in children goes up if they are
inundated by violent TV shows.  In addition, concepts like the finality
of death are beyond some very young children, and they're not always
really good at realizing that if you pull the trigger and the guy falls
down on TV, it's make-believe, but if you do it in real life to your
buddy, he ain't getting up.

I'd have to really go home and dig through some old files, but I remember
studying this stuff in college in my developmental psych courses...


'Saw

    
    Having burdens is a lot like rugby!
    
    Kev_for_Hawk
    

    To lighten up things, I've stolen this from the Jokes file and modified
    it for Michael Jordan.
    
    It seems that Jordan was in a foursome playing a new course.  
    
    Arriving at a Par 3 which overlooked a pond, Michael asked his caddy
    what he thought he should hit.  the caddy replied, "Most use a 6 iron,
    some a 7."  Mike said, "I can carry the water with an 8."  He and the
    caddy jawed back and forth, and finally the caddy said, "I'll bet you
    $20 you won't carry the water with the 8."  Mike agreed to the bet.
    
    One of the other players said he'd bet $1000 that Michael wouldn't make
    it.  The two others wanted in for $2000 each.  Mike agreed, and now had
    $5020 riding on the shot.
    
    He teed up, and adressed the ball.  He looked to the hole, back to the
    ball.  He stepped back, and said to his caddy, "Maybe I better play an
    old ball."
    
    Lee

    What inquiring minds really want to know...
    
    Who does Jordan have money on for the series?

    Barkley comes out and admits that he and Mike will play golf and
    bet on the course but not on the game and nobody is jawing at
    barkley for it (I know he siad it with a smile).  Jordan has never
    ever been linked in any way shape or form with sports gambling.  He
    makes bets on his free time weather it be Cards or Golf or in a
    casino.  He does not bet on any sports at all and surprisingly no
    one has ever even tried to accuse him of it.
    
    I think Ill get in touch with Jordan and tell him instead of Gambling
    he should spit on fans, date hookers, do drugs or get aids from too
    many one night stands, He'd get better press that way :-)
    
    							MairB

    MaB,
    
    You forgot molest little kids!
    
    hth,
    
    I remain,
    remembering a certain Dallas Cowboy!
    Kevin
    

Good luck getting in touch with Air Nathan, M_Air....  you're one of the
little people he doesn't want bothering him in his restaurant....

Course, maybe if you agreed to prostrate yourself and kiss his feet, he
might condescend to notice you.....


'Saw

    I bet Id have better luck getting in touch with jordan then
    say, Roger Clemens (Unless I had a $20 spot for an autograph).
    
    Again, coming from a poor upbringing I still look for the good and If
    somehow I bumped into jordan on the Golf Course, first Off Id try to
    resist hounding him for an autograph and leave him to his priviacy.
    Of course I dont think he'd be playing on the $12 to $15 course I play
    on :-).  Id expect him to treat me in respect as how I treat him.  If
    I start yelling HEY, HEY ITS MICHAEL JORDAN as he's about to make a 
    shot Id expect him to respond negativly.  If I casual commented about
    his shot (after he was done), Id expect him to respond accourdingly.
    
    We all see what the press wants us to see, I dont fall into that trap.
    Although if your already looking for the negative youll tend to beleive
    anything negative you hear on that subject.
    
    My Mother-In-Law fell into this same trap.  A few years ago jordan was
    at some High School playing with the High School kids.  One of the Kids
    (I beleive the center) starting getting mouthy and did a slam over
    jordan in his face type shot and then made some comments.  So Jordan
    did the same back, maybe this was childish but of couse the media never
    showed what lead up to jordan responding that way.  
    
    Bulls in 6 (BJ, BJ, BJ)
    								MairB

    I know a few people who have written to MJ in hopes of him signing 
    their hoops card of him, only to have their request ignored and not
    even returning the card.

    
    > I know a few people who have written to MJ in hopes of him signing 
    > their hoops card of him, only to have their request ignored and not
    > even returning the card.
    
    Say what you want about Jordan, but that's the lamest, sappiest thing
    I've ever heard.  Michael Jordan didn't return some overgrown kids'
    basketball cards so he's a real cretin.  And I'm sure that Charles
    Barkley and the rest have a 100% return rate, all personally
    authenticated, on all 10,000 pieces of mail they receive per day.
    
    glenn
    

    
      I have to give it to Glenn. He has a clarity of vision that's almost
     unmatched here in SPORTS. 

    Hey!
    
    I use extra strength Visene and I c real good!
    
    I remain,
    only using braille on dataes!
    Kev
    

    Well Glenn, believe it or not, there are superstars that have even
    hired their own staff in their determination that every piece of fan
    mail gets answered.

Glenn -

How dare you write that.  The great all knowing Mikey H. wrote
that note. Therefore it is gospel.  You are wrong.  

Get with the program, will ya.

JD

JD, missing Don Cherry is really doing things to 'ya :-)

The Crazy Met

Naw, Metz.

I'm outta here anyway, so who cares?

I don't get a chance to note with a perfect diety like Mikey H.
very often, so to increase contact with the Perfect One, I
need to rile him a bit.  

Plus, I'm hoping he'll come up with one of his great
lines like "Idiot" again...

JD

    
       Well, Mikey tried a little damage control last night in
      an interview with Ahmad Rashad that was televised at half-
      time. Unfortunately, Mike chose to wear a pair of Raybans
      the entire time which really made me take everything he said
      with a grain of salt. Mike, apparently, can't even look into
      the electronic eye and with a straight face say he doesn't
      have a gambling problem. He did, however, in a roundabout way
      put the tally of his losses at $500,000. He also said his
      family has never told him he had a problem nor any of his
      friends. It all would have gone over alot better if he hadn't
      worn the shades.

M_Air,

	I too tend to look for the good in people.  But I'm not as
	naive as I used to be.

	Mikey is out for #1, and that's all he cares about.  He
	doesn't walk on water.


re the interview:

	Must be nice to piss away a cool half-a-mil.  If that's not
	a gambling problem I don't know what is.

	And of course, he's not admitting he has a problem, which 
	is a sign that he really DOES have a problem.....


'Saw

	re interview:

	I switched over to get the score and caught the tail end of the interview.
	The first thing that went through my mind was the sunglasses thing.

	The other strange part, to me at least, was when he was asked point
	blank, "Do you have a gambling problem?"  What a shock - he said, "No."
	Does the word denial pop into anyone else's mind?


	billl

    I was waiting to hear him say "I can stop anytime I want to..."
    
    

    Yeah there's something wrong when they can't look you in the eye.

    I am suprised at the people in here.... The biggest concern in here in
    nat that he gambles BUT the AMOUNT! If Mike Airhead bet 100 bucks a
    hole we would never hear anything would we......
    
    REK

    
    > I am suprised at the people in here.... The biggest concern in here in
    > nat that he gambles BUT the AMOUNT! If Mike Airhead bet 100 bucks a
    > hole we would never hear anything would we......
    
    Well, geez, REK, everyone knows that Mikey could be put in a really
    compromising position by some unsavory characters over $100.  I mean,
    maybe with some arm-twisting he could be persuaded into buying a round
    of beers at the clubhouse...
    
    glenn
    

    You've got to know when hold 'em,
    Know when to fold 'em.
    Know when to walk away... and know when to run
    You better hold(?) your money, when sittin' at the table,
    there'll be time enough for countin, when the dealin's done.
    
    When Mike makes what we're making, $100 bets would startle me.  Since
    he's making at least 100x what I'm making, and it ain't my money, I
    don't care how much it is....

> You better hold(?) your money, when sittin' at the table,

You never count your money when you're sittin at the table

HtH

The Crazy Met

    Somehow I just knew TCM would know the correct lyrics.

>    Somehow I just knew TCM would know the correct lyrics.


TCM always makes sure he's holding his money when he LEAVES the table. 


[many good-natured 8^)]

'Saw

    Thanks 'Saw... 

    
    
    TCM the Kenny Rogers of Sprots....
    
    
    Chap

    Ain't dat Ruby?

    
    
    Why is Bobby Bonilla's wifes name Ruby? :-)
    
    You picked a fine time to leave me Daryl
    
    Chappy

	re where's billl?


	I was workin' and got into the Suns note firsted where you will see
	I quickly corrected Mr Ashe.





	billl

    Then again, has any one seen billl and Kenny in the same place?
    

	First you have to realize there are two types of gambling, good 
gambling and bad gambling.  Good gambling (legal and state approved) is not 
addictive plus your chances of winning (megabucks, scratch tickets etc.) 
are extremely low.  Another side benefit is that folks like Bob Crane can
build mansions on the profits the state makes.  Bad gambling is the kind of 
gambling where you 1. have a fraction of a chance of winning and 2. the state 
gets no cut on the action.  Y'all understand?

				/Don

>are extremely low.  Another side benefit is that folks like Bob Crane can



Ah, /Don, Bob Crane is dead.


hth,
'Saw

    I cannot see where legal vs illegal has much to do with gambling as a
    problem.
    One of the aspects of the jordan situation is his alleged refusal to
    pay these bets of his... we saw one man's solution to his welshing -
    tell the world.
    
    Gambling for anyone gets to be a problem real quick when the payoff is
    delayed.  If Mike wants to gamble on golf he needs to carry a few gs
    around and play with it; no ious.  But he seems past that stage.
    
    Funny, one would think that a person who is so good at what he does
    would realize that there are people really good at say golf or
    whatever.
    
    From my experience Michael Jordan is of the "type" that always loses
    when he tries to gamble mainly because of ego.
    
    Andleman says news on mikej is only tip of iceberg.

    And of course noone would try to grab headlines by claiming Mike owed
    them money or Charles was the father of their baby or...

The big question is ifin it was somebody with fleeting fame but  mega-bucks 
would the NBC/ABC/CBS even carry the story ? I don;t think so we
are all groomed by our local sports page to read and define these atheletes as 
totally committed to the sport that they play. We all dream of playing like 
them as children and as adults sit on the couch critisizing how bad they play
or how they should do this or that.

There are at least 100 hollywood types that have gambled away the fame and 
fortune for just one lucky draw why doesn't "Dateline", "60 Minutes" or "20/20" 
do a show on the countless others than Mike and Pete the Sports heros. 

Jeff

    >> Mikey is out for #1, and that's all he cares about.  He
    >> doesn't walk on water.
           
       No, he does all his walking on the basketball court  :-)
    
       Ben

    I can't help but wonder why the author of that book released early
    copies to the media during the NBA finals.  Getting even because Jordan
    hasn't finished paying off the settlement?  Publicity to push the book?
    All of the above?
    
    Lee

    Rob Ficker should get a prerelease copy.

    
     >> Rob Ficker should get a prerelease copy.
    
        There is something pretty pathetic about a grown man who derives
        so much pleasure from harassing people. Somebody ought to take
        Rob Ficker and that lady with the twirling arms from the '86
        World Series and lock 'em in a small room with Jake after he's
        had a big plate of beans and two six packs of Penn Pilsner.

    
    BTW, it was reported yesterday that Barkley did not pay for Ficker's
    appearance/plane fare/tickets.  Another urbane legend bites the dust...
    
    brews

    
>    BTW, it was reported yesterday that Barkley did not pay for Ficker's
>    appearance/plane fare/tickets.  Another urbane legend bites the dust...
    
 
Considering it was in bad no matter who did perhaps this is just damage
control by Stern & Co.....

I'm sure that somebody in the Suns front office had something to do with it.
Stern & co. are hard at work squashing the source due to bad P.R.

Bulls by 5 tonight as they continue to try and make it look close. Suns shoot
45 from the line but still can't win.


Metz

I was kinda hoping Air Nathan would sing "Sit Down Yer Rocking The Boat.."

JD

    
    Didn't know where to put this but since it concerns sports and gambling
    felt this was a proper place....
    
    When does Saratoga start running?? Is it this Sunday?? Anyone know??
    
    Thanks....Westy
    

I always thought it the meet at Saratoga started in August.

The Crazy Met

    Nope, starts Tuesday... expanded schedule...

	5 Attorney(s) General from Northeast states, minus Connecticut's 
for the obvious reason (the state's take on the Foxwoods video machines), 
have banded together and asked that no further expansion be allowed in the 
legalized gambling field, citing the standard reasons of addiction, criminal 
involvement, morality, ad infinitum.  My guess is that local racetrack owners,
fearing competition, have decided to call in some favors and launch a counter 
offensive.  Being a slow learner I still have a difficult time differentiating 
between good and bad gambling.

				/Don

    
    
    	Yabbut slash,
    
    Good Gambling is when I win
    
    Bad Gambling is when I lose.
    
    hth
    
    ;^)
    
    

    The FBI is investigating unusual betting patterns in Arizona State
    basketball games. The Saturday game against Washington State(?) was
    taken off the boards when a pile of money came in against ASU.
    
    I heard the Pac 10 commish on the radio last night,saying that the
    matter is being looked at with great attention.

    The Huskies game is the only one being investigated.  You have to be pretty
    stupid to lose $200K on Washington's basketball team.

    Mike:
    
    According to the report I heard,there were a number of suspicious ASU
    games. Saturday's was the first to be taken off the board.
    
    This is a story that could really explode in the next several weeks.
    How has ASU done compared to their expectations? Is Frieder in trouble
    out there?

>    How has ASU done compared to their expectations? Is Frieder in trouble
>    out there?
    
    Frieder's not in trouble.  This team wasn't even supposed to finish
    over .500 and they were in the running for an NCAA bid up until 2 weeks
    ago.  They should be in the NIT for sure.  They vastly overachieved
    considering all their injuries to key players.
    
    I've seen Frieder at the dog track ;-)
    
    Mike

    ASU is under investigation for four games.  The first three they were
    slight to solid favorites and lost all three.  Then Saturday's game
    against Washington, they started out as 6 1/2 point favorites.  Over
    $500,000 was bet on Washington, on a game that should have only had
    about $50,000 bet on both teams.  Most Vegas books took the game off
    the boards.  The ones that didn't adjusted the line, down to 4 or 4
    1/2.  ASU screwed the betters and won by 18.
    
    NAZZ

    Like I said, they're idiots for making those bets, true or not.

I wonder if there would be such a rush to defend if a school other
than ASU was being investigated. No need to answer this
rhetorical question.

The Crazy Met

    who's defending them?

    well lets see, first you were saying it was this one game; then when
    the facts showed otherwise you said that folks were stoopid for betting
    on Washington, trying to change the subject. Sure as heck sounds like
    you're trying to fudge the issue. But you do that so often with KJ and
    Sir Charles it is becoming rather amusing to see what new Heiserism we
    will see today.
    
    Anyone ever see Acc Crisp and MikeH in the same room together??
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    You people keep saying they're investigating more than 1 game, yet all 
    of the news services say that's false.  The Gaming Commission and
    PAC-10 has also cleared ASU of any wrong-doing.  They were favored by
    18 and won by 22.  
    
    The real issue here is the 2 guys that bet $200K on Washington.  They
    are the complete idiots and the only ones being investigated.

    It was allegedly two college age kids who bet $250,000 on Washington,
    getting 6 1/2.  The line immediately moved down to 4.  ASU won by 18,
    so the kids got roasted.  Obviously, if there was a fix, the kids
    woulda won.
    
    NAZZ

    Was it 73-55?  I thought it was 75-53.  Either way, they did get
    roasted.

Does your local or favorite paper publish the betting lines?

If so, it may be barred from covering the NCAA Finals.

The NCAA will debate nexted month what to do about their concerns over
gambling - legal and illegal - on collegiate sports. What they're
considering is to deny press passes for the basketball Final Four to the
papers that publish the betting line.

The press is screaming First Amendment but so far the NCAA is holding to
the position that the Final Four is a private event wherein they can
invite or deny access to about anyone they want.

In any case, a possible compromise may be in the way that the NY Times
and Washington Post do it: they only publish the pro lines, not the
colleges. 

USA Today, the local paper Charlotte Observer and many others including
the Boston Globe publish both pros and colleges.

My only complaint is that the Observer doesn't publish the over/unders,
not even for pros.

TTom

    This is great news.  The ncaa tournement is covered profusely by ESPN
    and tv and radio in general.  If the Globe and others are denied ncaa
    coverage then perhaps they'll cover the NIT tournment in depth.
    
    I am totally sick and tired of the ncaa and their attitude of control,
    control, control; make another rule....
    
    The NIT is a lot of fun but has been hard to follow and our Globe can
    send a reporter down to Marietta to cover the Mississippi Valley State
    game with , say, NC Charlotte.
    
    But Globe will probably capitulate.
    
    bte

>    I am totally sick and tired of the ncaa and their attitude of control,
>    control, control; make another rule....
    
    This one doesn't seem to be consistent with the usual goal of making
    money, though.  It's a ridiculously stupid idea that only slits the
    NCAA's own throat, so I expect it'll get bounced...
    
    glenn
    

 >> The NCAA will debate nexted month what to do about their concerns over
 >> gambling - legal and illegal - on collegiate sports. What they're
 >> considering is to deny press passes for the basketball Final Four to the
 >> papers that publish the betting line.

    The debate will last about five minutes. I don't know that it'll hurt
    them monetarily but they'd have to wage a pretty pitched battle to get
    it to stand then it'd be a bitch to enforce it. Why bother because it
    won't affect gambling on college sports one iota.

>    won't affect gambling on college sports one iota.

Well, it looks like I survived Las Vegas. 

Firsted of all, I could never be a professional gambler. It's too much 
like work. You gotta walk all over the Strip and make sure Harrah's got
no better line than Mirage. And just when you got today cyphered, there's
the nexted day's line and start all over again.

The weekend started out with a light play on BC over Louisville. It's 
always nice to win the firsted bet.

Friday, it was run all over town to see what was happening. NBA hadn't 
kicked off so you can play the bets on who wins it all and how many games 
each team plays. I bet the Magic to win the whole NBA. It went off at
9:2. I also bet the Magic to win over 56 games. Among some of the other 
odds, the Suns and the Sonics were at 3-1, and the Knicks were also 9:2.

Then I played the horses most of the day. It was Breeder's Cup weekend at
Churchill Downs. My girlfriend is from Louisville and turned me on to Pat
Day. I bet him all day and he finished in the money about 6 times. 
Saturday, was a repeat for me. I was betting him across the board and he 
paid everything from 5:2 to 7-1. Evidently, I wasn't the onliest Pat Day 
player.

And of course, there's college football. I always have a tendency to make 
too many plays so there were certainly some losers and did-not-covers, 
including No Carolina who lost outright to Clemson and Kansas St who
didn't cover against Iowa St. But luckily I hit the big ones. I hit a
Florida-parlay with Florida blowing out Southern Miss, Florida St romping
over Georgia Tech and Miami finally covering at Syracuse. I also made a
five-star play. It's a personal rating system where you flip a coin and
if'n it's head's or tails five times in a row you bet the ranch. So it
was big on Texas A&M and a_easy cover. 

Saturday night was the Foreman-Moorer fight. I had a little bit on 
Moorer, a loser. But I doubled up on over 8� rounds which won.

I've been out there several times and Saturday was probably the bestest I 
ever done.

Now we move to NFL where I caint seem to figger nothing out. I played 
light and lost a little. My girlfriend was the big winner Sunday. She
doubled up on Green Bay who hung on to cover over Detroit and on San
Diego who lost but squeeked out the bet at +2 against Atlanta. 

I finished the weekend doubling up on Dallas. I had -6� for the half time 
spread and -13� for the game, both winners. I also played one of those 
funky parlay cards. I played a $10 on 4: Giants to kick first, under on 
the sacks (5) and interceptions (3) and over on the fumbles (3). Winner, 
paying 11:1.

Most of the time, I watched the action from the Mirage. It's one of them 
amphitheater type rooms. On the left is all the horses. On the right is 
all the sports. There's a bar in the middle to sit at if'n you get there 
a little early. 

I reaffirmed several beliefs. 

The first is, when going to Las Vegas, don't do anything that's free
cause it aint free. The free ride from the airport on a shuttle takes
over a hour cause you gotta stop at 7 other places besides yours. 12
bucks gets you a cab that takes about 12 minutes. Those free buffets?
Stand in line 2 hours. And how 'bout them free drinks? Well when you're
playing the slots or doing the casino style betting, it works pretty
well. But for sports betting it's about 2 hours between calls. 

I've also come to the conclusion that playing the slots and especially 
the poker machines is a losing venture. I bet I save a hundred bucks not 
playing either.

All in all, I was very happy to come back with my money. We used frequent 
flyer points to get out there and got a real cheap hotel package. For me 
it was free cause the said same girlfriend paid for it since I paid for 
it the lasted time. The big expense of the whole trip was the bar tab. 

TTom

>
>All in all, I was very happy to come back with my money. We used frequent 
>flyer points to get out there and got a real cheap hotel package. For me 
>it was free cause the said same girlfriend paid for it since I paid for 
>it the lasted time. The big expense of the whole trip was the bar tab. 
>


That's pretty cool.  Let me know when you're coming up to Ledyard, I'll
come with ya!

The big line this coming weekend is 9:2 that Saw doesn't get skin cancer
exposing his fishbelly white legs to the hot Florida sun.....


'Saw

>The big line this coming weekend is 9:2 that Saw doesn't get skin cancer
>exposing his fishbelly white legs to the hot Florida sun.....

How 'bout a_over/under on the SPF rating of the sun tan lotion?

TTom

  While you were out in Lost Wages, did ya bump into Art Schlister ?
  The Columbus Dispatch just reported that he's stolen and forged over
  400 grand in bad checks to cover gambling debts.

	Keith

Nah, never saw ol' Art. Looks like he's still got that gamblin' jones,
though.

One of the nice things about Vegas is how safe it is. There's security
all over the casinos. People are around all day and all night. 

Probably the worst thing you gotta watch out for is a pick pocket.

TTom

    So ttom did you make enough to cover the bar tab and hotel?
    
    We used to try to cover the NIT trip with winnings on the games.  The
    hardest part was trying to phone out of the Garden.
    
    Of course the New York part of the NIT is only three games not like the
    60s and early 70s with double headers during the week and a full slate
    on Saturday.
    
    I also remember split lines where you got 1 1/2 if you took undergog
    but gave 3 1/2 if you wanted the favorite.

Yeah, I made enough to pay for a couple of 99 cent margueritas ;-).

Speaking of split bets, there's a bunch of different ways to play about
ever thing.

There's Teasers where they let you change the spread. Say the Eagles were
favored by 7 to beat up Buddy and his Cards. With a 5 point teaser, you
can reduce that to 2 if'n you like the Eagles and bump it to 12 for the
cards.

Also on most games you can bet the spread, the odds or the over/under.

TTom

                    
> I've also come to the conclusion that playing the slots and especially 
> the poker machines is a losing venture. I bet I save a hundred bucks not 
> playing either.
    
    Hey, TTom, little hint for the next time, all the games out there are 
    losing ventures, by the numbers... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

Contining saga ...

Over the weekend, I hit a couple of parlays that I played in Las Vegas.

On Saturday, I hit Clemson - 7, Rutgers +15, and Duke +2�.

On Sunday, I hit Philadelphia-Cleveland under 38, Cincinnati-Houston over 
34 and the Raiders-Rams under 38.

The onliest easy one in the crowd was the Cincy-over. Each payed 6-1.

And while getting the tickets, I found a Dallas bet from lasted week that 
I forgot I made and hadn't collected. I bet it at Palace Stations, where
we stayed, Friday morning and forgot all about it.

TTom

My luck sucked.

Go to Florida for a few days of beach weather and get hit with Tropical
Storm Gordon.....8^(


Actually, it wasn't so bad -- there was plenty to do, and it was warm.

I spent more money than if I'd have hung out on the beach for a few days,
but on the whole the Chainsaw has NO complaints about the vacation, except
that I didn't get to see an aligator.....


'Saw

    is the storm hitting the NE? if so when?
    
    The Crazy Met
    

|    is the storm hitting the NE? if so when?

Yea, it's headed straight for Cambridge, but is expected to bypass 
the rest of the region.

    It hit Cambridge last tuesday.

Nah, it's just a little tropical storm, and it's kind of farting around
down in the gulf area.

It started out off Nicaragua, I caught that much on the Weather Channel before
I left.  It blew up over Haiti and Jamaica, clipped Guantanimo Bay, and
cut Northeast, supposedly it was supposed to pass through the Florida Straits
and into the gulf.  

Now, it's just kind of farting around down there.  Winds were like 50 mph.


To me, it just made life a pain in the ass for a couple of days.  The
most dangerous part where I was was that it affected traffic lights and
some train crossings -- lights acted strangely and stuff like that....

    hell it can hit Cambridgefor all I care just as long as it doesn't
    do it until Friday. Just don't want it messing with my flight plans
    tomorrow.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Sports Illustrated has started a series on sports gambling,
    specifically college students and their gambling.  It mentioned by the
    way five states that allow some form of sports gambling although only
    Nevada allows direct bets and a ship harbored off Fort Lauderdale.
    
    I knew Ontario had a sports lottery but didn't know any states had
    anything.  Anyone know what states and what kind of sports betting they
    allow?
    
    Article is fairly interesting and I'll forward if anyone is interested.

I think Oregon has a lottery based on the NFL. Maybe Washington. In any
case, the league was trying to get it stopped using copyright
infringements as the raison d'etre.

Is there a_indication of how many articles/issues this will involve? I
mean I'll spring for a copy, maybe 2 but that's tops.

TTom

	I got a kick out of the S.I. article.  As long as any gambling 
problems were confined to poor or working class venues nobody gave a rat's 
about it, but let Skippy and Buffy get the bug when they go to college and 
it's a national emergency.  The irony of this situation is that our state 
and national legislators portray legalized gambling as the panacea for all 
our money woes, we can gamble our way out the national debt, just like the 
guy down a grand can play his way back to even.  Heck, old governor Weld 
will have you believe that casinos will be a boon to our state and local 
economies.  My retort to that fallacy is to take a walk two blocks beyond 
the boardwalk in Atlantic City and see how legalized gambling helped that 
community.

				   /Don

    Just got finished reading the first two parts of the SI article.  I
    guess I never really imagined that gambling on campus by students was
    as prevelant as the article makes it out to be.  When I was going to
    school (Sep. 1973 through April 1977) I never bet on a game, and
    probably would not have known how to get a bet down.  Then again I
    worked at a race track for 3 years and hardly ever bet there.  
    
    While reading the article I kept on thinking what the impact of all of
    the gambling is on the game itself?  I guess the next article goes into
    that aspect.  
    
    As if binge drinking, drugs, sex and violence on campus wasn't enough
    to worry about.
    
    UMDan

RE       <<< Note 120.153 by ODIXIE::ZOGRAN "It's the Champale talking!" >>>

>    As if binge drinking, drugs, sex and violence on campus wasn't enough
>    to worry about.
    
  Well none of this looks any different than it did back in the '60s when
I was going to school. Somehow most of us survived. I doubt that gambling
on sports will spell doom to our institutions of higher education. So what
if daddy's money get's redistributed a bit? The kids that work for a living
will get smart quickly.

  No biggie,
  George

It looks like the trend is to try about anything in college and then move
on. 

They drink, they smoke, they toot, they gamble, then they get a job, get
married, have kids and become more and more conservative as their years
progress.

That seems to be what's happening. That seems to be what has been
happening for quite some time.

The whole attraction to gambling is that unlike most of the rest of life,
the outcome is difinitive: someone loses by some margin and everyone
knows who won what.

TTom