Conference hbahba::cam_sports

>	Well, no note yet on the Colorado Rockies, so here goes....
>
>	They won their first two exhibition games, in the first one they beat
>	the Pittsburgh Pirates 9-5, yesterday they beat the San Diego Padres 
>	2-1. (I think those were the scores).
>
>	Kevin


In their first game they beat the San Francisco Giants 7-2, making 
Barry Bonds look bad in the process.....


'Saw

    Who would be their starting lineup if they started today?  Just
    curious... Is Wedge going to get a shot?
    
    -Walt
    

>>In their first game they beat the San Francisco Giants 7-2, making 
>>Barry Bonds look bad in the process.....


Boy is this tempting!  Naa I'll wait til October rolls around.

Billl

>In their first game they beat the San Francisco Giants 7-2, making 
>Barry Bonds look bad in the process.....


>'Saw

Jeeze, I hope JaKe will forgive me, I got the Pirates and Giants confused due
to Barry Bonds.  Thanks for the correction 'Saw...

Kevin

>Jeeze, I hope JaKe will forgive me, I got the Pirates and Giants confused due
>to Barry Bonds.  Thanks for the correction 'Saw...
>
>Kevin


Well, Kevin, you can be forgiven, because if you saw the highlights, it
was tough to tell who they were playing.  It was only when I heard
Bonds name that I knew.   Then the announcer finally gave the score....

Course, with all the changes of players this year, it's tough to remember
who went where also.....


'Saw

	Rockies lose their first game, 5-4 to San Diego.  Winning run walked
	in by Scott Holcomb in the 9th.  For someone (forgot who) I looked
	at the boxscore and didn't see Wedge listed.

	Kevin

>     <<< Note 99.2 by ROYALT::ASHE "T. Kennedy: Good senator, bad date" >>>
>
>   Who would be their starting lineup if they started today?  Just
>  curious... Is Wedge going to get a shot?
>    
>    -Walt
 

   Walt,

   Wedge was slated to be their backup catcher.  Yesterday they found out
   that he had a bone spur in his right elbow.  Doesn't look like he'll be
   on the opening day roster.  Look for him to be in a Colorado Springs Sky
   Sox uniform to start the year.

   Kevin

    
    >>curious... Is Wedge going to get a shot?
    
    
    Is that "Sand Wedge" or "Pitching Wedge".  Probably get a shot if the
    distance to the hole is less that 100 yards.
    
    JaKe
    

	Colorado finishes the Cactus league with 17 wins, I believe that's a
	record for exhibition season victories.

	Kevin

  The way I heard it was that it is a record for an expansion team
  exhibition season victories. Not too shabby.

	Keith

    
    	Actually, I think they tied the record for spring wins by
    	an expansion team.  I believe they tied the Houston Colt
    	45s.
    
    	Aside:  We used to have a guy on our softball team that
    	played for the Colt 45s.  I know...BFD.
    
    Claybroon

    
    >	Aside:  We used to have a guy on our softball team that
    >	played for the Colt 45s.  I know...BFD.
    

    >	Aside:  We used to have a guy on our softball team that
    >	played for the Colt 45s.  I know...BFD.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I had a guy on my team that used to drink Colt 45's ...

So there

    
    	Oh yeah?  Well, we had a guy who used to carry a Colt .45!
    	None of the umps had the noive to call him out.
    
    	glenn,  the fella's name was Roger Linberg(sp?).  He played
    	3rd for us.......
    
    Claybroon

    
    	Yo glenn, were you gonna look this guy's name up and confirm
    	he played for them?  I was just going by what he said.......
    
    Claybroon

    
    >	Yo glenn, were you gonna look this guy's name up and confirm
    >	he played for them?  I was just going by what he said.......
    
    Don't see anbody in the encyclo by the name of "Lin"-something who
    played for Houston in the 1960s.  I smell another Affaire de Radatz...
    
    glenn
     

>                      <<< Note 99.17 by TOOK::WAUGAMAN >>>
>                -< Was 'Saw involved with this softball team? >-


HEY!

I believed that Raddatz was going to be there just as much as the next
guy!

I wasn't involved in any hoax.  I'm just the po', po' victim of an
innocent collegep prank gone awry.   I just picked the date and location!


Po' Mr. Chainsaw

    
    	Nah, glenn.  We're oallowed one platestacker on our team
    	and wwe've already got one.  ;^)
    
    	TTry Roger Lenberg...........
    
    Claybroon

>    	Nah, glenn.  We're oallowed one platestacker on our team
>    	and wwe've already got one.  ;^)
>    
>    	TTry Roger Lenberg...........
>    
>    Claybroon


I dunno, Glenn.  I think that Claybone is pulling one over on us.  I'll
bet you'd have more luck looking up Moonlight Graham than Roger Lenberg...

'Saw

    Yabbut I had a friend who had a friend who had 45 colts!
    
    Once they git moving, nobody tried to stop them either.
    
    My friend lived in Boulder!  He was always stumbling around town
    screaming.....
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Nah NEW!!!!!   Nah NEW!!!!!!
    
    grins....
    
    I remain,
    wondering if he ever got his egg-ship repaired?
    Kev
    

yeah Kev is really back!


The Crazy Met

    
   >> yeah Kev is really back!
    
      Ooh, break out the good china.

    Thanks Tommy, 
    
    Now I gotta find some virgin tissues to wipe da coke of'n my tube!
    
    made my day!
    
    I remain,
    back (until it gets too busy again)
    Kev
    

The largest crowd ever for Major league Baseball piled into Mile Hi today 
over 82,000 fans are watching the Rockies pound the Expo's in the thin air. 

Jeff

    re-1
    
      The best part is the 1st at bat for the Rockies hit a homer, plus
    they ended getting 4 runs total in the 1st inning.  Good way to start!
    
      Tim

    The Rockies blew a late-game lead for the first time last night and
    lost to the Mets, 8-4.  Terrible 8th inning: with 2 outs and the bases
    empty and the Rockies leading 4-2, Parrett gave up 2 singles.  Then Holmes 
    came in and walked 3 straight batters for 2 runs.  Willie Blair then
    came in and give up a bases-clearing triple to right field that
    should've been caught by Bichette but was terribly misplayed.  
    
    Rockies now 2-4.
    
    
    Joe

Imus was joking around this morning, saying that the Rockies lost in front
of the smallest crowd in Rockies history -- approx 52K people.....8^)

      I hope they don't do that tonight,  Im'ma going fur free!
    
      Please, no rain or snow!
    
      Tim

    Do you realize if the ROckies pull 50k per game this year
    they will have 4,050,000 people this year?
    
    REK

It will be easier for teams in the NL to reach 3 million in attendance this
year than it has been in the past. The NL is counting tickets sold to get
the attendance figures, like the AL has been doing for a while, rather than
the actual number of people who show up to see a game which is the system
they used through last year.

The Crazy Met

    re NL attendance calculations:  I'd love to hear T's spin control for
    this one.

    
    > re NL attendance calculations:  I'd love to hear T's spin control for
    > this one.
    
    Yes, it seems that little by little (artificial turf, bad stadiums,
    expansion dilution, All-Star Game futility, World Series losses,
    re-alignment and interleague play votes, balanced divisional
    scheduling, attendance calculations) NL purism/superiority/snobbery 
    has taken a beating in recent years.  Baseball's system of two "major 
    leagues" has never been closer to being just one non-distinct league 
    than right now, and even that may soon disappear, which is kind of a 
    shame...
    
    glenn                              
    

>    Do you realize if the ROckies pull 50k per game this year
>    they will have 4,050,000 people this year?
   
    After last night's game, the Rockies are averaging 64K per game.  Of
    course it's early and that figure will drop as the season wears on.
    
    After 1 inning today Colorado leads the Mets 4-2.
    
    
    Joe 

    The team is fairly popular here as well (as are the Donks).  Lots of
    folks running around with Rockie t's, especially at my kid's school.

    
    > After 1 inning today Colorado leads the Mets 4-2.
    
    Sheesh, hang it up, Doc.  What a difference a week makes.  Maybe that
    thin mountain air is straightening out Gooden's already nearly dead-
    straight fastball...
    
    glenn
    

    Rockies beat the Mets for the first time today, 5-3.  Neid gets the
    complete-game win.  Colorado is now 3-5 and heads out on a 6-game road
    trip to Montreal and St. Louis.
    
    Joe

      Of course the colorado teams should be popular down in Az,  you
    people need water from us;^)
    
      Actually,  alot of people I know, have, are going to, or live in Az.
    Close proximity (sp?), especially in winter time when its a warm 60
    degrees.  I lived there for 2 years.  Had a great time,  but its toooo
    hot in the summer.  103 degrees in the middle of the night is too
    much..
    
    
      Tim

                      <<< Note 99.36 by NAC::G_WAUGAMAN >>>

    
        
   > Sheesh, hang it up, Doc.  What a difference a week makes.  Maybe that
   > thin mountain air is straightening out Gooden's already nearly dead-
   > straight fastball...
    
    Remember those silly Gooden-Clemens comparisons a couple 
    years back? ho HO!

    daryll

    Rockies lost 2 out of 3 over the weekend to the Expos and started a
    3-game series in St. Louis last night by losing 5-0.  This one wasn't
    lost by the bullpen, but instead by starter Bryn Smith, who gave up all
    five runs in the first 4 innings.  Of course he didn't get any help
    offensively as the Rockies only had 5 hits all night.  The bullpen only 
    gave up 2 hits in the last 4 innings.  
    
    Eric Young stole 2 bases and leads the league with 9.
    
    Rockies are now 4-8 and closing in on last place.
    
    
    Joe                                  

    Rockies got their first save Friday night as Holmes pitched himself out
    of trouble in the ninth and the Rockies beat Florida, 5-4.  Holmes had
    runners on first and third with one out but got the Marlins to hit into
    a game-ending double play to preserve the win.
    
    Marlins evened up the series Saturday by holding off a 9th inning rally
    by Colorado to win the rain/snow-delayed game, 2-1.  Ashby is Colorado's 
    hard-luck starter - in his first 2 outings, he pitched well only to end up 
    with no decision.  Saturday he got into trouble early but still only
    gave up 1 run on 4 hits in 7 innings of work.  He now leads the team
    with a 2.0 ERA but only has an 0-1 record to show for it.  Rockies had
    a few base-running errors in this game that cost them.
    
    Marlins took 2 out of 3 in the series after yesterday's 11-1 rout of
    the Rockies.   Starter Bryn Smith pulled a hamstring stealing a base and
    was placed on the 15-day DL.  A whopping 71,0000 fans showed up at
    yesterday's game, bringing the season average to a little over 62K.
    
    Rockies are now 6-11 and play 2 at home against the Cubs followed by 2
    more at home against the Cardinals.
    
    
    Joe

    Rockies blasted the Cubs last night 11-2, giving them a split in the
    2-game series.  It was ironic that Colorado got the win from one of
    their poorer pitchers, Butch Henry, while one of their aces, David
    Neid, took the loss Monday night.  Rockies got 16 hits Monday night but
    only managed 3 runs in part because they hit into a few double plays
    and had some guys picked off on the bases.  Gallarage had a 464-foot
    homer to right center field last night.
    
    The Rockies now host 2 games against the Cards.
    
    
    Joe

After last night's 5-3 loss to the Giants, the Rockies are now 11-21 and have 
lost 6 out of their last 7.  Over the past week and a half, Colorado took 2 
out of 3 from the Marlins, split a 2-game series with the Cubs, lost 4 straight 
to the Braves, and now have split the first 2 games of a 4-game series with the
Giants.  After this series with the Giants, the Rockies will head out on a
2-week road trip.

The bullpen is still a disaster - their combined ERA is 7.83 - but now the
starters aren't pitching as well as they were early on.  The supposed ace David
Nied hasn't posted a victory in about 3 weeks and his record has fallen to 3-4.
One of the bright spots is Armando Reynoso, who was called up from AAA Calhan
just before the series in Miami.  Reynoso's first start was a complete game
victory over the Marlins, and Monday night he got his 2nd complete-game
victory.  He also hit a homer against the Giants, the first by a pitcher this 
season.  However, he is the only pitcher on the staff with an ERA under 4.

As for attendance, the Rockies are still a huge success at the gate.  They are
averaging just under 59,000 per game and set a major league record by
reaching 1 million fans in their 17th home game.  The last 3 games of the
recent series against the Braves drew 200,000 fans, and so far there have been 
3 crowds of over 70,000.


Joe

    I think the Rockies are at or are near the top of the NL in offense (runs
    scored), and you know those hitters aren't that good (although much better
    than their pitching).  The early returns do not bode well for baseball
    played at mile-high altitudes.  You can move the fences back, but that
    might actually increase scoring.  I think the potential will be there
    for all sorts of strange records from Rockie hitters, and I don't think
    I'd want to be the guy in charge of putting together a pitching staff.
    In the long run this might be to the Rockies' disadvantage, like Fenway
    has historically been to the Red Sox in evaluating and grooming talent,
    but on a much larger scale.
    
    glenn
    

>like Fenway has historically been to the Red Sox in evaluating and grooming 
>talent, but on a much larger scale.

Gee Glen,

 Everybody knows that the Sox have the best talent in the majors and the
minors. Lou Gorman would never overestimate the worth of a Red Sox player and
the Boston Media would never blow up expectations of a player coming up from 
the minors...

Metz
 

> Everybody knows that the Sox have the best talent in the majors and the
> minors. Lou Gorman would never overestimate the worth of a Red Sox player and
> the Boston Media would never blow up expectations of a player coming up from 
> the minors...
    
    But only because Pawtucket is a mini-Fenway.  Then when Lou gets his
    hands on a stud hitter like Jeff Bagwell who bats .333 and wins a 
    legit batting and slugging title in that hitters' hell in New Britain, 
    he figures that something's awry and the guy better be liquidated
    before he messes up The System.
    
    glenn
    

    	Hey don't knock it Glenn.  Bagwell is going to lead the Astros
    to the pennant and World Series and when I get my dough from Vegas
    there'll be a ::SPROTS GitTogether on me!
    
    				/Don

    
    >	Hey don't knock it Glenn.  Bagwell is going to lead the Astros
    > to the pennant and World Series and when I get my dough from Vegas
    > there'll be a ::SPROTS GitTogether on me!
    
    I'm with ya.  I'm a big Jeff Bagwell fan.  He's already one of the best 
    10 hitters in the National League, and will be a perennial All-Star.
    And the 'Stros definitely have a shot...
    
    glenn
    

    >I'm with ya.  I'm a big Jeff Bagwell fan.  He's already one of the best 
    
    I was wondering who that guy was doing the CBS football commercials
    was.
    

    The Rockies just completed another disastrous homestand where they lost
    5 out of 6.  For comparisons, they're 7� games behind the Marlins.  The
    biggest reason for the difference is that the Marlins have a legit
    closer in Harvey.
    
    After starting the season a respectable (for an expansion team, that
    is) 10-15, the Rockies have now lost 23 of their last 28 games.
    
    
    Joe

	And to add to the Rockies woes, they lost to their AAA team (Colorado
	Springs Sky Sox) yesterday, 4-2 in a 7 inning exhibition game.  The
	Rockies didn't score until the 7th.  Pitcher David Neid, who has not
	been pitching well at all, started against the Sky Sox and was expected
	to go 5 innings or so.  He left in the 3rd with something wrong with
	his pitching arm.  Agree with you Joe, the Rockies pitching staff
	is terrible.  In other Rockies news, earlier this week they gave an
	unconditional release to pitcher Bryn Smith.

	Kevin

    
    	They even lost to their Triple A team last night (The Colorado
    	Springs Sky Sox).  I know, not that big a deal.....
    
    	Speaking of the Sky Sox, I went to a game Tuesday night.  I
    	saw DAR-RYL, DAR-RYL play for the Dukes.  He's down on rehab
    	due to his back.
    
    	We sat about 15 feet from the visitor's on deck circle.  Every
    	time he came out, he was brutally dogged by a few of the fans
    	sitting near us.  I felt sorry for the guy.  So sorry that I,
    	a long time Reds fan, rooted very loudly for Strawberry.  He
    	ripped a double to right center to shut 'em up....for a while.
    	I guess if I got paid what he's making, I could ignore the
    	insults too...
    
    Claybone

    
    >	We sat about 15 feet from the visitor's on deck circle.  Every
    >	time he came out, he was brutally dogged by a few of the fans
    >	sitting near us.  I felt sorry for the guy.  So sorry that I,
    >	a long time Reds fan, rooted very loudly for Strawberry.  He
    >	ripped a double to right center to shut 'em up....for a while.
    >	I guess if I got paid what he's making, I could ignore the
    >	insults too...
    
    Bart and Maggie proved that this is not the case...
    
    glenn
    

    These guyz need a closer...
    

    
    	And a couple more starters......... :*(
    
    	Wonder who'll win the bidding war for the "Big Cat" after
    	this season......
    
    Claybone

       Within the next 2-3 years, the Rockies can start affording better
    pitchers IMO.  They seem to have the offensive weapons.
    
      Tim

    
    The fact that they have won more games than the Mets in their inagural
    year (at this point in time) with a team ERA of around 6 is amazing. 
    They sure are making it tough for my prediction that their winning %
    will be higher than the Broncos a tough one.
    
    I'm pretty sure that the top two starting pitchers were in Colorado
    Springs at the start of the season.  Seems the Sky Sox and Rockies
    pitching staffs are interchangable.
    
    Marc
    

minor nit:

Mets have more wins than the ROckies, but fewer than the Marlins.

The Crazy Met

    
    Ahh, incorrect grammar, I meant in comparison to the Mets inagural
    year, not the Rockies inagural year.
    
    Marc
    

    
    Marc,
    
    *I* knew what point you were trying to make!  I think the TcM's
    lack of sleep sorta shorted out a few o' his neurons!
    
    ;^)
    
    I remain,
    well rested and alert!
    Kev
    

for the lack of the word "had"

The Crazy Met

    Mets fans are teste, makes up for the lack of it on the team.  8^)

    
    > The fact that they have won more games than the Mets in their inagural
    > year (at this point in time) with a team ERA of around 6 is amazing. 
    
    I don't think it's amazing at all.  The Mets' 1962 season stands as the
    all time yardstick for futility by a team in modern baseball history.  It 
    would take some serious and probably intentional effort to outdo that.
    
    glenn
    

    Andres Gallaraga was named NL player of the week.
    
     Now if he had decent pitchers to back the offense....
    
      Tim

Rockies sweep the home stand against the Astros's 
winning streak is 3  and 1 game up on the Mets.....

Laughs are hard to come by in MLB but this is something to cherish. 

Jeff

Well Last Wednesday night I took my wife and 2 children and 6 friends to our
first Rockies game. It was a cold damp Denver evening with just a hint of wind. 
Rockies against the AAA Padres from San Diego. Parking was $4.00 for a car 
of 4 or more people traffic wasn't a problem got to the stadium about 35 
minutes before the National Anthem. 
We took our seats next to the roof along first base line. I was suprised to see 
42,*** other freakin lunatics out on a cold mid-week night game. Beer was
$2.50 for a 32 oz. went pretty well with a hot dog. We bought a bag of peanuts 
before the game from a outside vendor for a buck. Rockies won 11-4 with 
Gallaraga going 2-3. 
Great party and there were only slightly over 4mil fans for the home games 
this year not bad for a state with a population of just over 2mil. 

Jeff   

    
    	Who do you think you're trying to fool, Riggo?  You don't
    	have 6 friends.......
    
    Claybone
    

      re-1
    
     Amazing what $$$$ will do;^)
    
      Tim

    	Two dollars and fifty cents for 32 ounces of beer?  Man, in Fenway
    they won't even let you sniff the tap for $2.50!
    
    				/Don

    
    	Who do you think you're trying to fool, Riggo?  You don't
    	have 6 friends.......
    
    Claybone
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^   
Amazing what a Beautiful Blonde wife will do for the friends catagory.

    
    	Who do you think you're trying to fool, Riggo?  You don't
    	have 6 friends.......
    
    Claybone
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^   
>>>>	Amazing what a Beautiful Blonde wife will do for the friends catagory.

    
    
    Okay Jeff, fess up now.
    
    Was it the roll of $100 bills you borrowed, the keilbasa sausage in yer
    pocket, the drugs ya slipped into her coke or a combination of da 3?
    
    ;^)
    
    I remain,
    somehow thinking JaKe inspired me to write this!
    Kev
    

Help me out Clay she used to feed you Snickers bars. 

    
    	She gave me those Snickers bars so I would talk to you and
    	make you feel like you had a friend.  So I'm cheap.....
    
    Claybone

    Hey Claywad, quit pickin' on my friend Riggen...
    
    JoJ
    
    Ok Jeff...deposit the $100 in my account tomorrow...

    
    	It's being reported here that the Rockies signed Ellis Burks
    	to a 3 year 10 million dollar deal.......
    
    Claybone

    
    ..His back must be feeling better, eh?
    
    ...Mel

    Wedge, Baylor, Evans, now Burkes.  Sounds like Red Sox-West.

     I brought in the Cactus league schedule today, so if anyone wants ti
    know who plays when, give me the dates, aand I'll fill you in.
    
    brews

	Brews,

  I'm looking for all the games played 21-25 march the team does not make that
much difference to me. I am planning to see as many as my family will allow.
If you have a soft copy, please send mail.


Thanks

Keith 

    3/21
    Cubs @ Mariners
    Giants@Brewers
    A's@ rockies
    3/22
    Angels (SS)@Cubs
    Brewewrs@A's
    Mariners@Padres  nite
    ASU@Angels(ss)   nite
    Rockies@Giants   nite
    3/23
    Brewers@giants
    A's@Padres
    Rockies(ss)@Angels  nite
    UA@Rockies(ss)   nites
    3/24
    Brewers@Cubs
    A's@MAriners
    Giants@ANgels
    Padres@Rockies
    3/25
    Padres(ss)@Cubs
    Mariners(ss)@Giants
    Mariners(ss)@Padres(ss)
    Brewers@Rockies
    Angels@A's        nite
    
    
    Nite games are all 7:05 starts
    
    Phone numbers
    
    For Angels, Cubs, Brewers, A's  home games   602-678-2222
    Rockies   800-388-7625
    Angels, Padres, Giants, Mariners    602-784-4444
    
    
    Cain't believe I did this for a 'girls fan.
    
    brews

    Hey thanks a bunch, Brews!  

	brews,


   Thanks!  I needed that... Looks like I can plan two days each in Phoenix and
Tucson.

 Cadzilla2

    
    Traveling to Denver on Memorial weekend.  Could someone post the
    Rockies' schedule, if their in town that weekend?
    
    Thanks,
    

The Rockies play the 26th @3:05 Business persons special. 
Don't return till the 3rd o' June. 

Jeff


Skiing should still be fantastic. At A-basin 4' of new snow in the 
last 2 weeks.

Jeff

    re -1 
    
    > The Rockies play the 26th @3:05 Business persons special.
    > Don't return till the 3rd o' June.
      ----------------------------------
    
    The Rockies or the Business persons?

The business persons since I'm planning on going to that game and sitting 
19th row above the  home dugout

    
    	I must be a bidniz man too cuz I'll be there.  Go Reds!  :*)
    
    	19th row behind the homedugout eh?  At least I'll know 
    	where to aim......
    
    Claybone

	Rockies only need about 30K at tonight's game against the Braves
	to reach 1 million in attendance for the year.

	Kevin

    
    Went to back-to-back Rockies vs Dodgers games this week. Rox lost both.
    
    The boys and I got some nice autographs (Brett Butler, Joe Ferguson and
    Kevin Gross), and I just missed an HR from Piazza in batting practice.
    He absolutely crushed one off the 'Ring of Fame' (Gerald Phipps) that
    made the whole crowd just go "Ooooooohhhhhhhh ..." !
    
    Drove by Coors Field, construction appears to be coming along nicely.
    I can't wait for next year !
    
    - acp

      If the Rockies could only beat the Braves!
    
      Tim

First the Rockies had never beaten Cincinatti in Riverfront Stadium 

They finally beat them last weekend.


even better they were 0-fer against the Braves

well last night they stomped the Braves 7-2 in Atlanta. 

    ...but it took an ex-Brave to beat the Braves.

    is it my imagination or do the rockies pitchers give up to many hits to
    the other teams pitchers?

    
    	They give up too many hits period.
    
    Claybone

    
    	Let's see, Salomon Torres hits Charlie Hayes in the face a while
    	back.  Burba hits Dante Bichette and Galarraga in the same inning
    	yesterday.  Cat is out for the year.
    
    	What would SF fans be saying if Rockies pitchers had hit their
    	heros Barry Bonds and Matt Williams (putting one of them out
    	for the year)?
    
    	I think you'll see some Giants on their butts in the batter's box
    	soon.....  Just a hunch.
    
    Claybone

    Hayes was fortunate that he was not out for the year as well.  Lets
    see that makes our three power hitters being hit by the same team.
    Coincidence???  Call me skeptical but I do not think so.  It was
    the Rockies that put the final nail in the coffin of the Giants
    last year.
    
    Frank mendez
    
    

    
    
     re -.1
    
      I could have sworn it was Mike Pizazza and the rest of the Dodgers.
    I hope to god that this doesn't blow into a bean ball war.  I did not
    see the game only heard about it but it all seems to be one sided and
    if thats the case Baker has to be suspended and quick.  A brush back/
    purpose pitch is part of the game but to intentionally drill more
    than one player is as bad as charging the mound.  Even as big a basball
    fan as I am if this nonsense is to continue maybe the strike is the
    best thing to come along in awhile.
    
    Jerry

      What,  the Cat is gone?  I hadn't heard a word.  It sounds like the
    Giants are scared of the 2nd year team.  Take Bonds down!!! (-)
    
      Tim

    So who is going to play first.  Looks like maybe HoJo at first and
    Kingery at left and Burks at center.  I'm not sure when Burks is
    coming back so maybe Young at left, Kingery at center and HoJo
    at first.
    
    

    Would VanderWal play first?
    

    I guess vanderwal would play first.  He has subbed for Galarraga
    before.  But the Rockies have to figure a way out to get some power
    in the line-up in Galarraga's absence.
    
    Frank
    

  So what's the story with Howard Johnson? He seamed to be putting up some
bleak numbers all season but he did ok last week, has he been injured?

  George

    I think Howard's done. From what i've see, he has no bat speed anymore
    and he swings at to many bad pitches. Yea, I know he hits an 
    occasional pinch homer but other that he usually strikes out
                                           Just my opinion

    
    	They are bringing Ty Van Burkleo up from AAA here in Colorado
    	Springs.  He's got some pop...
    
    Claybone

    
    First the strike date set, then the Big Cat goes down. It's getting
    really hard to stay a fan.
    
    I have tix for August 8th against the Dodgers, but I just don't know ...
    
    But it would be great to be in 1st place when the strike hits !
    
    - acp

    
    	I told ya somebody was going down.  ???? hit Royce Clayton
    	then Manwaring back to back.  I couldn't believe they
    	didn't do Williams & Bonds.  
    
    Claybone

    I believe it was Jim Czajkowski who hit Clayton and Manwaring. 

    Yea, with the Cat going down it is hard to stay interested. It seems
    like the whole team is that way. Without Cat and that pitching staff
    I don't think there's much hope for first.

    If the Rockies could only play Houston for a while....  Rockies win
    a big one last night.  It is hard to have hope but it is easy for
    me to be interested.  Hey anything can happen.  I did not expect
    them to be this close anyway.  Burks had a dinger last night and
    various Rockies came through.  Girardi, Kingery, Vanderwal, and
    Hayes played well.  Watching Bagwell play was a joy.  The guy can
    really hit for power and I was surprised how well he fields.
    
    Frank
    

     re. Bagwell
    
    	Why can't the Red Sox gets guys like him?
    
    Claybone

    re:note 99.111
    Don't know if you knew this, but Bagwell use to belong to Boston, and
    for some unknown reason they traded him.

    go figure. The Rockies do no wrong against Houston but they can't beat
    the Marlins. Another thing, when the Rockies play at home they seem
    nervous a lot but on the road they seem more confident. You think they
    press more at home because of the big crowds(as in wanting to impress
    them).

>                                   -< ohno >-
>
>    re:note 99.111
>    Don't know if you knew this, but Bagwell use to belong to Boston, and
>    for some unknown reason they traded him.
>

Don't know if you're serious, but considering I haven't see you in 
here much....


Of course we knew that.  It's a Sports 'thang' for Red Sox fans (mostly)
to say that about Bagwell.....


Hell, for me, it's even carried over outside of work.  I saw a clip of
Jeff hitting a tater a few nights ago, and said to my dad "Gee, why
can't the Red Sox get a guy like that...."


'Saw

	Rockies get 12 hits last night and only score once.  All 12 were
	singles.  They lost.

	Kevin

>	Rockies get 12 hits last night and only score once.  All 12 were
>	singles.  They lost.

That's better than scoring once then having her hit you 12 times......

    anyone know of any big time pitchers that will be free agents at
    the end of this year? 

    re Marland
    
    	I knew that.  'Saw knew I knew that.  Anybody that knows anything
    	knows I knew that.
    
    Claybone
    
    ps	You need a name on your notes so we can insult you on a first
    	name basis.  :*)

    re Claybone
          I've only been doing these notes for a couple weeks so I didn't
    know you knew that.
    
    ps. By the way, the name's Marland.

    Dwight Gooden... haha...
    

	Well, anyone thinking that the fans would backlash against the strike
	will be sorely disappointed in Colorado.  98% of season ticket holders
	for the Rockies renewed.  Could be due to the "newness" of the Rockies
	or could be that Coors Field is opening up.

	Kevin

    
    Or it could be because a significant number of the players play AAA
    ball and will probably make up the new team.
    
    Marc

    
    A little history:
    
    	Last season, Dante Bichette, Andres Galarraga, and Charlie Hayes
    	were all hit by a San Francisco Giant pitcher.  Galarraga suffered
    	a broken right hand (ending his season), Hayes incurred a broken
    	cheek bone, and Bichette got lucky.  Dante was hit in the nose but
    	there was no damage.  An inch the other way could have caused him
    	a serious injury too.
    
    	Yesterday in a exhibition game with the Giants, Galarraga was hit
    	again by a Giant pitcher just inches away from where he was hit
    	last year.  Don Baylor is pissed.  This is gonna blow up
    	someday in the near future....
    
    Claybone
      

    
    
    	Yo Claybone!
    
        I heard some of this on ESPN yesterday. Dusty is saying come on
    we can handle it.  He say with that stance and the way he dives into
    the pitch the Cat is going to get hit. 
    
        If I was Bonds I'd ready for anything when these two meet in May.

    
   > 	Yesterday in a exhibition game with the Giants, Galarraga was hit
   > 	again by a Giant pitcher just inches away from where he was hit
   > 	last year.  

	You mean he did it in the same town?!!!  :-)

   >	Don Baylor is pissed.  This is gonna blow up
   >    someday in the near future....

	I'm not trying to be a wise guy or anything, but doesn't Baylor
	have the all-time hit-by-pitch record?  He's an old-timey guy -
	I'm surprised he doesn't just keep quiet and have his guys drill
	the Giants a few times.

	This is where the old style of immediate retaliation really made
	sense.  Just keep quiet and get them back, one for one.  Nowadays,
	you get guys charging the mound just for an inside pitch...

Roland

    
    	Don Baylor would squish Dusty Baker like a grape.
    
    	The "wide open stance" excuse doesn't cut it with me.  Cat
    	stands so far off the plate it's hard to believe this isn't
    	intentional.
    
    	Roland, this is headhunting plain and simple.  There's a difference
    	between pitching inside and throwing at somebody's noggin.  I agree
    	with you on the retaliation though.  They went after our best
    	hitters last year and now this year.  Barry Bonds and Matt Williams
    	should find out how it feels too.....just to be fair right?
    
    Claybone

    
    
    	Rockies now lead the league at 7-1, having thumped the Padres 12-7
    yesterday. The bullpin is not giving games away, and the hits
    are coming around when necessary.  The current home stand will shed
    some light on the NL West. One more game with the Padres, then three
    each with the Dodgers and Giants. A triple sweap would make the fans
    here go crazy.

    
    Whats wrong with Larry Walker??  He got hit by a pitch the other night
    Monday I think and theres seems to be a no show in the box scores??
    Is it a serious injury from the HBP???
    
    /westy
    

    
    He has a pulled quad in his leg, and has been doing nothin but pinch
    hit work since then injury. He had been a great addtion to the roster.
    With his and Ellis Burks return to the active squad, the team will have 
    to make some moves to get them back into the lineup.
    
    Bichette may move to third, with Walker in right, Burks back in center and
    Kingery moving to left. At the moment third appears to be the only weak
    link in the infield. Nobody has proven themselves with the bat or glove
    so far.

    
    	They never shoulda let Charlie Hayes go.
    
    Claybone

    >>what wrong with Larry Walker ?
    
    Other than overpaid !!
    Alergic to sun in the eyes !!
    Slow !!
    
    
    Nuthing
    
    Jeff

    
    
    	Rockies get sweep by the Dodgers, tied with SF for first in the
    NL west. Dodgers score 30+ runs in three games. Glad they only ome to
    town twice a year. 
    
       Giants come to town on Tuesday.

	Rockies got spanked by the Bravos last night, 15-3.  Colorado has now 
	lost 23 out of the 25 games the two teams have played.  I think Colorado
	is still in first place in the NL west.

	Kevin

    
    Rockies come back and take one from Greg Maddux and the Braves 6-5 in
    Atlanta. An error by McGriff in the 7th produced the go ahead run. This
    was the first loss for Maddux in 40 games when the Braves score 4 or
    more runs.

    
    Rockies drop two of three to the RED's this weekend in Cincinnati, but the
    win came on a day when the rest of the west lost. Walks continue to kill 
    this team. Twelve walks produced seven runs in a game lost 9-8 on saturday.
    
    Rockies still in first by 1 1/2 games over the Giants. 
    
    Three game home stand with Chicago starts tonight, then back on the
    road. 

    
    Rockies were up in the 9th down by one.  Bichette got on first (don't
    know how), was sac'ed to second.  Then Kingley (I think) hit a ball
    down the first field line for a double.  Tie score, still one out. 
    Mejia is now up and hits a single to dead center, there is going to be
    a play at the plate, but not to be the center fielder makes an error,
    Rockies with 9-8 with 2 in the 9th.
    
    I've been debating whether the Rockies were for real or not.  They've
    come from behind several times this year.  If they finish with Chicago
    and come back from their road trip in first, I think they'll be in it
    until the end.
    
    Marc
    

    
    	That was Vinny Castilla who scored the winning run.
    
    Claybone

    
    It was Vinne that knocked Bichette in also. Kingery laid down the bunt
    to move Dante over to second.   I bet these out of towners love playing
    in the sleat and 40 degree Denver weather in May.
    
    
    Walks are still eating the pitching staff. Four runs off the bb last
    night.

    
    Dropped one to the Cubs last night. Rockies left to many men on base.
    Strange game though, both starting pitchers hit homers.

    
    Rockies drop another to the Cubs 5-3, first game this year were total
    score was not double digit. 

    
    >    Rockies drop another to the Cubs 5-3, first game this year were
    >total score was not double digit.
    
    Not true, the Rockies won back to back 2-1 games against the Astros in
    Houston.  Or are you saying in Coors field it is the first time double
    digits weren't reached.
    
    Marc
    

    @Coors Field
    

    This note doesn't seem to have seen much action lately ...
    
    Does anyone know where I can get the Rockies home schedule?  Internet?
    WWW?
    
    I'm looking to see if they have home games any time from June 31st -
    July 8th.  Also, July 25th - Aug. 12th.
    
    thanks,
    Dan

    Nevermind.  Got schedule and website elsewhere...
    

    
    	Rockies split four with the Padres this weekend. Rockies took the
    day games and padres took the night.
    
       1B Andres "Big Cat" Gallaraga hit a home run in three 
    consecutive innings in yesterdays 11-3 Rockies win. Few men MLB
    history have performed that feat.  

    I think Art Shamsky did it with the Reds in 1966 in an extra inning
    game although it's possible it wasn't consecutive innings.  Shamsky
    also was on deck when the game ended with the reds losing.  His
    previous homers had tied or put them ahead, the first was a pinch hit
    homer.
    
    I'm doing this from memory.

    
    His name was not on the list of four people to hit three in three
    consecutive innings. Lance Parish did it in 78? , the other two are 
    old timers from 1930 and before.

    
    The scary part about the feat was that the Cat was on deck.  Just
    getting up that often is bad news for the opponent.  He missed his
    chance at 4 homers in 4 innings.
    
    Marc
    

	Nomo did a number on the Rockies last night.  Struck out 13 and had
	50 Ks in a four game stretch, breaking Sandy Koufax's Dodger record
	of 49 in four games.  Even though, Rockies had a chance.  Bases loaded
	in the top of the eighth, no outs with Gallaraga at the plate.  Hits
	a weak grounder back to Nomo.  Nomo throws back to the plate for one,
	Piazza (sp?) back to first for the double.  Pretty much ended the game.
	Dodgers in first place now.

	Kevin
	(BTW, Nomo goes to 6-1)

    
    
    Rockies take two of three from the Astro's, 15-10,8-16,4-2 and up their
    western div lead to two games over the Dodgers. 
    
    Dodgers dropped one to the Braves last night. Two outs bottom of the ninth,
    two men on. Dodgers bring in some guy to face Chipper Jones, who has a 2-0
    count. First pitch gets launched over right field wall. 

	I think Nomo was pitching for the Dodgers last night.  Had 10 Ks
	when Tommy put in the relief pitcher.  Smoltz was doing ok for the
	Bravos too, I think he had 12 Ks when the relief pitcher went in.

	Kevin

I heard someone discussing Nomo -- can't remember where now, as it was a week
or so ago -- and they were saying he has this habit of throwing his pitch in
the dirt when he has two strikes on a batter.   Whoever was talking was saying
that lots of batters are striking out on a lousy two-strike pitch.

He was speculating that once the hitters catch on to this, Nomo is going to
find it a little harder than he has so far.


I haven't seen the guy pitch to know if this is true or not.....


'Saw

	'Saw,

	I don't know where you heard it, but the Rockies manager, Don Baylor,
	said exactly the same thing after Nomo beat the Rockies, striking out
	13 in the process.

	Kevin

Laying off that two-strike pitch is easier said than done.  Supposedly, Barry
Bonds was saying that Nomo's forkball starts up around the chest and ends up
at your feet.  That's got to be awfully tough to lay off of.

The guy is for real.  He played in Japan for something like 4 or 5 years and
was putting up numbers in the neighborhood of 290 Ks for 215 IP, while being
a consistent winner.

Roland

    
    Nomo has that weird motion that people are having trouble picking up
    his release point and the rotation. For a two pitch ( fastball, slider)
    man, he's pretty hot so far this season. If he can learn a change-up or 
    splitter he'll give the nat'l league even more trouble.

    
    When there is a base runner, Nomo does not use the weird motion.  His
    motion is then quite normal.  The key is that his strike out pitch has
    one of two characteristics.  He either tries to blow it past you just
    above the belt or he uses his nasty forkball that has the appearance to
    drop out of the sky coming across the plate about 16" off the ground.  
    
    This is based purely on 50 or so pitches in a single game.
    
    Marc
    

    I heard an interesting piece of information on Japanese pitchers.
    Apparently Nomo wasn't even the best pitcher in the Japan League.
    There are a handful of pitchers in Japan at least as good as Nomo.
    Wonder when the scouts will make their way to Japan?
    

>    I heard an interesting piece of information on Japanese pitchers.
>    Apparently Nomo wasn't even the best pitcher in the Japan League.
>    There are a handful of pitchers in Japan at least as good as Nomo.
>    Wonder when the scouts will make their way to Japan?
    
    I've read the same but don't bet on there being too many better than
    Nomo.  I think this was more the case after Nomo hurt his arm due to 
    overuse (typical in Japan) and slumped a bit, but he appears to be 
    completely recovered and back at the top of his game...
    
    glenn
    

I saw Nomo a couple of times while I was in LA last month.  He throws three
pitches, not two: fastball, slider, fork ball.  You rarely see the slider
with two strikes, but figuring out whether what's coming at you is the
fastball or the fork ball is quite a challenge.

As I understand it, he actually had to formally retire in Japan in order to
be able to sign with the Dodgers, and even then, needed the approval of the
league president.

However, now that a sort of free agency has been introduced in Japan, it is
quite possible that Nomo's success will pave the way for other Japanese
pitchers to come to the major leagues.  With another expansion coming up,
the demand for competent pitching will go through the roof.

Steve

    
    
    	Rockies take the first game of a four game home stand with the Expo's
    9-6 last night coming back from a 6-3 expo lead in the fifth. 
    Rockies now lead the west by three games. 
    
    The Rockies are 31-0 when leading after the eighth ie; no blown saves 
    without a true closer. 
    
    Tonights game may be touger since Osevedo starts in place of Billy Swift. 
    Swift came down with the stomach flu yesterday and is out of the rotation 
    for awhile. If the rookie Osevedo has his good stuff it may be a long night
    for the Expo's.
    
    Dodgers loose to the Braves 1-0 on a bottom of the ninth single by McGriff
    scoring Grissom from second.

    
    >no blown saves without a true closer
    
    A rather misleading statement.  There have been several times when the
    bullpen did not do its job, but the offense made up for it.  For
    example, review prior messages for more detail, there was a game this
    year that the Rockies and xxx were tied in the 8th.  xxx scored in the
    top of the ninth, Rockies tie it.  xxx scored in the top of the 10th,
    Rockies tie it.  xxx scored in the top of the 12th, Rockies tie and win
    it.
    
    To me, that is three blown saves (yeah, I know, not a save) in one
    game.
    
    Marc
    
    

    
    Read the message, no losses when leading in the eighth, not tied!
    I'm only reporting what was said during last nights game.

    >Read the message, no losses when leading in the eighth, not tied!
    >I'm only reporting what was said during last nights game.
    
    Yes, but I'd be willing to bet that at least a couple times, the
    opponent tied the store in the ninth only to have the Rockies hit
    another ninth inning run.  I'm just saying that they may be 31-0 in
    that scenerio, but I'll bet there was a blown save that turned into a
    relievers win instead.
    
    I'm not getting down on the pitching staff, they are performing better
    than I thought they would, but I don't think the statement is
    completely accurate.
    
    Marc
    

    
    They are 31-0 in the situation described, sounds like the game was
    saved and not lost! Argue with Dave Campbell  and Charlie Jones if you
    want. If this was the first inaccurate statement made by an anouncer
    I'd be suprised.

	Speaking of Charlie Jones, I can't believe that the Rockies still
	have him as the play by play guy.  He has a great voice (to me)
	but he doesn't know very much about baseball.

	Kevin

    
    
    Thats the reason that have Dave Campbell

	Dave's too technical for me.  Did you hear him trying to explain
	cruve balls and fork balls last night?  Inept, and he kept digging
	himself in the hole long after he should have stopped.

	Kevin

    
    Rockies sweep the EXpo's and take a 5 game lead into the All Star
    break. 20 dingers in four games, with more than one back-to-back
    situation. Fridays game also had a back-to-back-to-back with Gallaraga,
    Walker and Castilla each knocking one out of the yard.
    
    Rockies travel to Shea for a four game set with the Mets after the break.  

    
    	The way they were knocking them out in Arlington last night, I can't
    wait till the Dinger Derby takes place a Coor's Field with its thin
    atmosphere.   

    
    Rockies drop three of four with the Mets over the weekend. Should have
    been a split, but lost the last one in the 10th. 
    
    Picked up the first of a four games series with the Phillies last
    night. The game ended 8-5 ,it was an ugly win with 14 runners left on
    base with bases loaded three times.
    
    
    Question:  Why did Paul Revere take a Midnight ride?
    
    Answer:   He missed the 10:30 bus!!

    
    Rockies take another from the Phillies 5-3 with rookie pitcher Byran
    Rekar winning his first MLB start. Anothe game with the Phillies tonight
    with the Mets coming to Coor's on friday for a three game stand.

    Thank you, Rockies.
    
    UMDan

    
    Rockies finish series with the Phillies with a 7-3 win. Still a five
    game lead over the Dodgers in the West. Mets are in town for the
    weekend. Maybe the Rockies can get them back for last weekends three
    losses. 

    
    
    Rockies still cling to a three game lead over the Dodgers. A nine
    game road trip starts in Miami with Atlanta and Cincinnatti to follow.
    This should be a long hot trip, I doubt they will be in first when it's
    over.
    
    At present the Rockies have the top three Home Run leaders in the
    league with another tied for fourth.
    
    Walker and Bichette are tied for first with 26 followed by Castilla
    with 24. Gallaraga at 22, is tied  with several others. 

	I saw that HR leader board this weekend and wondered if this was
	a fluke caused by the "thin air" in Denver, or if these guys would
	be in this postion no matter where they played?

	What's their home/away numbers look  like?


	billl

I know that until a couple of weeks ago, *all* of Bichette's homers
were at home.  Then he hit 3 in a row away.  Don't know about the rest
of the guys...

    
    Don't know the actual numbers, but I think you will find them in the
    range of:
    
    Player	Home HR		Away HR
    ------	-------		-------
    Walker	 14      	  12
    Bichette	 21                5
    Castilla     13               11
    Gallaraga    11               11
    
    During his Rockies career, Bichette was almost even on home vs away HRs
    before this season.
    
    Looking forward to actual numbers if anyone has them.
    
    Marc
    

	Thanks, it does look like one of those "thin air" flukes



	billl

  I'm not sure I'd call the thin air effect a fluke. That's sort of like saying
that people ski down a mountain real fast because of that slippery snow fluke. 

  The effect of thin air on a baseball or anything else that flies is very
real. Reduced drag allows the ball to fly further and it has a tendency to
straighten out pitches causing curves and sliders to break less and fastballs
to move less.

  George

    
    Obviously there is an effect.  However, I wonder if anyone with a
    science background could explain the real effect.  Obviously it is not
    the reduced gravitational pull.  That difference would account for
    about 1 extra foot on a 500ft home run.  What exactly is meant by "thin
    air" anyways?  Sure there is less oxygen, but the air is just as
    "thick".  Anyone up for an explaination?
    
    On a similar topic, I'd like to see the three year totals for Colorados
    home and away home runs and compare that to other ball parks.  I'll bet
    that there is not a significant difference in ratios.  Almost all teams
    hit more home runs at home than away, at least that what it seems like
    to me.  Anyone have these numbers?
    
    Marc
    

>    Obviously there is an effect.  However, I wonder if anyone with a
>    science background could explain the real effect.
    
    As George explained, it's the reduced drag.  The air isn't just as 
    thick.  Less pressure, less air molecules...
    
>    On a similar topic, I'd like to see the three year totals for Colorados
>    home and away home runs and compare that to other ball parks.  I'll bet
>    that there is not a significant difference in ratios.  Almost all teams
>    hit more home runs at home than away, at least that what it seems like
>    to me.  Anyone have these numbers?
    
    Don't have the numbers offhand (I'll bet Joe H does, though) but I
    think you'll find that not only is there an effect, but that the effect
    is *huge*.  Let's face it, if your basic stiffs like Castilla and
    Bichette can do what they're doing, if and when Colorado ever gets 
    ahold of a genuine superstar hitter (Walker comes close, but not so
    much for HR power) many of the single-season records are going to be
    shattered...
    
    glenn
    

	What I meant by "fluke" was that it was a peculararity (sp?)
	that will only happen in Denver (amongst current MLB towns).

	It's kind of like a wind aided 100m dash in track.  Sure it's
	real and can be explained scientificly, but I do think an 
	asterik is in order.


	billl

    
    If Sneide_Air was still here I'm sure he'd be calling Bichette the
    Wade Boggs of the West.........
    
    ;^)

    
    HR breakdowns for selected players...
    
    Bichette - 23 HR home, 3 HR away  
    	       .780 SLG home, .417 SLG away 
               .391 OBP home, .311 OBP away
    
    Castilla - 17 HR home, 7 HR away
               .762 SLG home, .395 SLG away
    	       .414 OBP home, .266 OBP away
    
    Walker - 19 HR home, 7 HR away
             .754 SLG home, .450 SLG away
             .404 OBP home, .347 OBP away
    
    Galarraga - 11 HR home, 11 HR away
                .530 SLG home, .518 SLG away
                .350 OBP home, .321 OBP away
    
>    Obviously there is an effect.  However, I wonder if anyone with a
>    science background could explain the real effect.  Obviously it is not
>    the reduced gravitational pull.  That difference would account for
>    about 1 extra foot on a 500ft home run.  What exactly is meant by "thin
>    air" anyways?  Sure there is less oxygen, but the air is just as
>    "thick".  Anyone up for an explaination?
    
    It's not gravitational effects; it's air pressure that makes the
    difference, from my understanding.
    
    Denver, being about 4000 feet further above sea level than any other
    MLB city, stands out in its effects.
    
    
>    On a similar topic, I'd like to see the three year totals for Colorados
>    home and away home runs and compare that to other ball parks.  I'll bet
>    that there is not a significant difference in ratios.  Almost all teams
>    hit more home runs at home than away, at least that what it seems like
>    to me.  Anyone have these numbers?
    
    I don't have those numbers, but I do have some other useful numbers...
    
    At home, the Rockies score 6.5 runs/game, and give up 6.0
    On the road, the Rockies score 4.0 runs/game, and give up 4.2
    
    Offense in Colorado is increased by 64% over a neutral park.  Given
    that players on other teams do play at Coors Field some, whereas
    the Rockies players play half their games their, this equates to
    a 30% inflation of offensive numbers for a Rockies player.  This is
    a _huge_ difference.  It's more than twice the effect any other park
    has upon numbers; it's actually close to being three times the effect.
    
    Joe

    Why wouldn't a fastball rise more if the curve doesn't drop as well (as
    well as less movement on all the junk pitches)?  Wakefield had best
    hope the Rockies don't make it to the world series - though I suppose
    the Rockies would be the least of National League evils (Reds,Braves).
    
    I know golf balls travel a lot farther out there.

    
    My fault - my memory failed me again.
    
    The Rockies don't score 6.5 runs/game at home; they score 6.9.
    And they don't give up 6.0; they give up 6.5.
    
    Joe

That's shoddy!  Go to your corner and sit there for five minutes!

    
    Rockies drop on to the Marlins in the 13th last night. Crused into the
    9th with a 4-1 lead. Saberhagen loads the bases and departs. Holmes
    comes in and fails to save for the second time in 42 games.

RE                      <<< Note 99.190 by AKOCOA::BREEN >>>

>    Why wouldn't a fastball rise more if the curve doesn't drop as well (as
>    well as less movement on all the junk pitches)?  

  Same reason. Any ball moves because of "lift" created by the spinning of the
ball. Lift is defined as a difference in air pressure which causing a flying
object to move in the direction of lower pressure. For example a wing of an
airplane is forced up by lift because the pressure above the wing is less than
the pressure below the wing. 

  A fastball "rises" because the backspin creates less pressure above the ball
than below the ball. I put "rises" in quotes because it doesn't really rise, it
just descends slower than the batter thinks it should descend. Lift causes a
curve ball or slider to break to one side. It causes a sinker to drop faster
than the batter would otherwise think it would drop. 

  In thin air there is not as much air per cubic volume to create as much
difference in pressure, hence less lift. The fastball won't "rise", the sinker
won't sink, the curve won't curve, the knuckle ball won't flutter. At least
they won't do those things as much. 

  Air tends to be thinner at high altitude than at low altitude and it tends to
be thinner on hot days than on cold days. 

  Or to put it another way, there is no chance that the 5 iron that Al Shepard
hit on the moon had any slice or hook at all. You can be just about certain
that it went straight. 

  George 

    
    The previous note failed to write due to loss of network partner at
    just the wrong time.  Oh well.
    
    Thanks for the stats Joe.  The scientist in me still wants to know the
    percentage difference of air pressure as a result of lower
    gravitational pull (theres your link between the two BTW), temperature
    (seeing as how it is hotter here than most of the country, although
    granted there is a far lower dew point, thus lower humidity) and how it
    affects the air pressure and just how many fewer molecoles per cubic
    whatever are there.  This percentage difference would tell us exactly
    how many extra feet a ball can be expected to travel before falling
    prey to the newtons laws 8^)  This of course would help on both the
    homerun discussion and the "junk" ball pitches.
    
    Marc
    

    No the ball does rise for the same reason it sinks.  I'll go along with
    less action (in Col.) but the rise on fastball or any ball thrown hard with
    backspin is no more optical illusion than the curve ball (which was
    thought so too).
    
    And George - I may not be able to hook a golf ball on the moon but I
    can guarantee I can slice it - :-)

RE      <<< Note 99.196 by COORS::MACGREGOR "Colorado: the TRUE mid-west" >>>

>    Thanks for the stats Joe.  The scientist in me still wants to know the
>    percentage difference of air pressure as a result of lower
>    gravitational pull (theres your link between the two BTW), 

  The difference in air pressure is not so much due to the difference in
gravitational pull, it has more to do with the difference in the amount of air
sitting on top of the location in question. 

  The Atmosphere goes up about 50 miles above sea level with most of the air in
the bottom mile or so. At 0 feet ASL there is 50 miles of air sitting on top of
each molecule. In Denver at 5000 feet ASL there is 49 miles of air sitting on
top of each molecule with that one mile difference being the mile with far more
air than any mile above it. 

  As for how much less I don't know the numbers but from flying small airplanes
out of LaFleur airport in Northampton I've been able to sense the difference
clearly. On a cold day a Cessna 150 would practically jump into the air a few
hundred feet down the runway that is about 100 feet ASL but on a hot day when
the "Density Altitude" was up around 9000 feet it would gobble up quite a bit
more runway then drag it's tail over the trees just past the fence.

  George

    
    
         Seeing byou guys have your scientists hat on. What makes a golf
    ball slice.
    
    chap

>         Seeing byou guys have your scientists hat on. What makes a golf
 >   ball slice.

Your swing?  :-)

   Same thing. When you hit the ball with the club face angled back

                       / <---
                   O  / <---
                     / <---
                    +

it causes the ball to spin (clockwise in our picture).

  The spin put's more pressure on the left side of the ball than on the
right and the ball moves toward the area of lower pressure.

  George

    
    
       Thanks that oughta save me 5 strokes.....z
    

    
     I doubt it. Once you correct the slice you'll probably putt lousy...
    
     ;^)

    Rockies continue their June swoon - lose again to the Marlins, who are
    one of the top three teams in baseball since the All-Star break.  The
    Rockies lead over the Dodgers is down to one game.
    
    NAZZ

    
    OK, here's some numbers I really wanted...
    
    Coors Field, while increasing offense performance in general by
    30%, actually increases a Rockies player's HR numbers by _64%_.
    That's an absolutely _incredible_ effect.  Frank Thomas, in Coors,
    could be expected to hit between 70 and 80 HR - in a _normal_ season. 
 
    The numbers:
    
 
HomeRuns		Rockies		Opps
 
In Coors		92		61
Other Games		40		27
    
    Another way to look at it: hitting 30 HR as a Rockie is about
    as difficult as hitting 18 for most other teams, or perhaps 15
    for the Dodgers.  Puts Piazza's accomplishments in another light...
    
    Joe  

	Thanks to the Cubs (beating LA in 11) the Rockies are still only one
	game back.  Rockies got beat by the Reds 4-0.  Rikar on the mound 
	tonight for the Rockies.

	On the recent thread in this note, what does science say about the thin
	air?  I mean, does the ball go 10% further, 20%, etc?  I'm thinking the 
	disparity in HRs is a combination of the altitude and attitude (i.e.
	"Hey, I'm one mile high, I'm gonna cream it!"

	Kevin

  I said earlier, the ball goes further because the air is thinner and creates
less drag. Also breaking balls don't move as much so pitches are easier to hit.

  I don't know the percentages but anyone who's flown a small plane on both hot
and cold days knows that the difference is rather dramatic. The plane seems to
jump into the air on cold days but really drags it's tail over the fence on hot
days due to the difference in lift. 

  If you want numbers you might want to purchase a book on how to fly a small
plane. Any decent text should tell you how to calculate density altitude and
it's effects on take off distance since they ask that on the FAA written exam. 

  George

	I'm not looking to learn how to fly a plane.  I thought someone in here
	might know.

	Kevin

  Some of it's coming back to me, it's been 20 years. 

  One answer to your question is that there is no one percentage since it
depends on the temperature. 

  On a very cold day in Denver the effect on the ball might be similar to a
warm day anywhere else. On an average day in Denver there will be noticeable
thin air effect. On a hot day in Denver it would be like hitting the ball on
the moon (OK not really), it would just go forever. 

  Just to put things in perspective, I seem to remember that doing the
calculations on really hot days summer days the "density altitude" at sea level
in New England could be around 9,000 feet. That means that the air at sea level
on a really hot day (high 80's) would be as thin as it would on regular days at
9,000 feet. 

  Denver being at 5000 feet there would be a noticeable effect on regular days.
If they were to have a really hot day it seems that they might get something
like 12,000 to 14,000 feet density altitude which would be so thin that
breathing would start to become uncomfortable and objects would experience very
little drag or lift going through the air. 

  I wouldn't be at all surprised to see someone break the 4 home run record on
a hot day in Coors stadium. 

  George 

	Thanks George.

	Kevin

    
    
    Rockies drop one to the RED's 4-0 last night. Thanks to the Cubs
    for stopping the dodgers. one game back with 19 of next 27 at home
    with only 43 games to go.
    
    The last 11 or 12 games will determine the NL West. Rockies have 
    3 with the Padres 4 with the Dodgers  and 4 with the Giants all on the
    road. I think we finish with 4 at home against the Giants.

    
    
    	Rockies loose to the REDS again 11-3, Reggie Sanders gets back to
    back to back homers two off Rekar ans one of Neid. Now two games back
    of the Dodgers with one to go before the next home stand.

	Rockies win today, 6-4.  1 1/2 back now.

	Kevin

    
    Pretty dismal road trip finish 2-7, Hopefully things will pick during
    the next home stand.

    
    Rockies thump the Cubs 12-5 last night. Three of the four Blake St.
    Bombers send one out of the yard. Bichette has passed Walker for NL 
    dingers. Harold Bailey picked up his first win as a starter giving up 
    only two runs till the eight. Sammy Sosa took one out 415 to center scoring
    three.  Hickerson retired the side in the ninth for the save.

    
    I think the Rockies out to try to get Sammy Sosa.  Seems like every
    time he comes here he goes 3 for 4 with 3 RBIs or something.
    
    Marc
    

    
    	I thought they measured Sosa's dinger at ~460 feet?  It was a
    	monster shot.  
    
    	"Anything that travels that far oughta have a stewardess on it!"
    
    	Claybone

    
    Ole Dave campbell gave out that one. It looked deeper than that to me
    also, but they see that park more than most folks. Looked like it went
    off the bullpin wall, but they only reviewed one angle.

    
    Rockies split the four game stand with the Cubs. What a weekend. Cubs
    score 26 runs on Friday night. 17 came after a 2.45 hr rain delay.
    came back saturday an won 6-5, but lose 4-2 on two run bottom of the
    ninth homer by Vinnie Castilla. 
     

	Lucky for the Rockies the Dodgers have been tanking it.  BTW, we stayed
	at the Embassy Suites in downtown Denver Saturday night.  Great view
	from the 18th floor of Coors Field.  That TV screen at the field is
	impressive.  Sharp and clear from four blocks away.

	Great comment from some Denver sportswriter after the debacle on
	Friday night (26-7, Cubs).   "The Cubs looked good but their kicking
	game needs some work".

	Kevin

    
    	After droping the first game 10-1 tuesday. The Rockies came back
    last night 9-5. Bichette 31 ,Castilla 29 and Gallaraga 27 each knocked
    ols Mr. Spalding out of the yard. Rookie Harold Bailey got his second
    win in as many starts. Bailey gave up two runs early, but managed to
    keep the Pirates off balance till relieved.

	Rockies win yesterday after being down 6-1.  Larry Walker hit a three
	run pinch hit homer in the 7th.  Final was 8-6.  With the Dodgers losing
	in 11, this puts the Rockies back 1/2 game.  They are also 1/2 up on
	the Astros for a wild card spot.

	Kevin

	Damn Rockies lost to Pittsburgh last night, 4-0.  Not only did they
	lose to a guy (Wagner) whose record before the game was either 2-13 or
	3-13, they were within one out of being no-hit.  Luckily, the Dodgers
	lost as well so Colorado is still one game back.

	Kevin

    
    Rockies return the favor and shutout the Pirates last night. Walker and
    Burks each homered. Still a half game behind the Dodgers

>     <<< Note 99.224 by OLD1S::CADZILLA2 "Rocky Mountain Ichthyologist" >>>
>    
>    Rockies return the favor and shutout the Pirates last night. Walker and
>    Burks each homered. Still a half game behind the Dodgers

	The late LA/Mets game didn't show up in the GT's stats page.  The Mets
	beat LA (forgot the score, something like 8-1 or so) and now the 
	Rockies are tied with LA for first.

	Kevin

    
    
    ROCKIES thump the Reds 10-5 firday night. A slam by Gallaraga iced the
    game in the 6th or 7th with the entire lineup coming up starting and
    finishing with Castilla. Seven runs in the inning put the games out of
    the reach of the Reds who only scored one run in the ninth. 

    
    
    	Rockies complete a sweep of the Reds this weekend. Still % points
    ahead of the Dodgers. Now they get Atlanta for two or three. Saberhagen
    and Swift each pitch 5 innings in the two wins. Hopefully the entire
    pitching staff will come off the DL and be ready for the remainder of
    the pennant race. 

    
    
    Rockies have taken two from the Braves so far this week. A 12th inning
    single by Galarraga Monday night ends a 6-5 comeback.
    
    On Tuesday with 17 hits, they scalp the BRaves 12-2 knocking Steve Avery
    out in 2 2/3 innigs after giving up 7 runs.  Still one game ahead of
    the Dodgers.

    
    
    Rockies drop the end of a three games series to the Braves 9-7.
    
    The Braves have taken the NL East, with the win and the Phillies loss.

  The Braves are 1st to clinch in the N.L., the Indians and BoSox have the
best record in the American League, there's a Democratic president and a
Republican Congress, a general who won the last war is talking about running
for President.

  Geezes this is looking an awfully lot like 1948.

  George

>  Geezes this is looking an awfully lot like 1948.
>
>  George

   At that point, there was a heated discussion in the Boston newspapers
   over whether or not certain events qualified as sports, when the eldest
   person in the debate was reminded of the early 1900's when ...

>  The Braves are 1st to clinch in the N.L., the Indians and BoSox have the
>best record in the American League, there's a Democratic president and a
>Republican Congress, a general who won the last war is talking about running
>for President.

>  Geezes this is looking an awfully lot like 1948.

>  George

...and none of this has *anything* to do with the Rockies.

What are Castilla's numbers right now?  I remember when he was a Braves 
prospect.  It seemed he had a good stick then, but not *this* good.  And the
jump can't even be entirely accounted for by playing in Denver...

> What are Castilla's numbers right now?  I remember when he was a Braves 
> prospect.  It seemed he had a good stick then, but not *this* good.  And the
> jump can't even be entirely accounted for by playing in Denver...

Sure it can.  Look at Dante Bichette.

BTW, if both the Dodgers and the Rockies make the playoffs, who plays
the Reds and who plays the Braves?  Not that it's much to choose from,
but I'll be in LA at that time, and I'm curious who I'd be watching,
and whether the away games will be on grass or the rug.

Steve

    
> What are Castilla's numbers right now?
    
    OBP - .352
    SLG - .586
    
    30 HR
    
    1 SB; 7 CS (cost - 11 runs)
    
>    I remember when he was a Braves prospect.  It seemed he had a good 
>    stick then, but not *this* good.  And the jump can't even be entirely 
>    accounted for by playing in Denver...
    
    Well, this is the real reason I replied - it seemed like an interesting
    comment.
    
    And it _is_ correct - Castilla is performing far better than one
    could expect, even when removing the (huge) influence of Coors upon
    his stats.
    
    It's a freak season, though, much like DiSarcina's.  Castilla's
    27 - the perfect age for freak seasons.  If he stays in Colorado,
    his numbers might look good enough to give him a career; he's really,
    in a normal season, about a backup-infielder level player.
    
    Joe

    
> Sure it can.  Look at Dante Bichette.

    You're right about Bichette - his numbers really _are_ a result of
    playing in Colorado, and ignoring that _aren't_ out of line for
    his career.  A bit high, but nothing like Castilla...
    
    Joe

>> What are Castilla's numbers right now?  I remember when he was a Braves 
>> prospect.  It seemed he had a good stick then, but not *this* good.  And the
>> jump can't even be entirely accounted for by playing in Denver...

>Sure it can.  Look at Dante Bichette.

Bichette had a bad year before he came over, and some solid ones beforehand.
Excepting the bad year, he was kind of a .275-15-70-15 guy.  Castilla wasn't
even that...

    
>    1 SB; 7 CS (cost - 11 runs)
    
    Oops - that should read cost - 4 runs.
    
    Joe

It's OK - we'll let it slide.  Don't let it happen again... :-)

I found it hard to believe that 7 CS could cost 11 runs...

    A lot of you guys are talking park effects with the thin air in
    Colorado . What about the park effects of 50,000 in the stands every
    night vs. 6,700 in Pittsburgh or 35,000 in Atlanta ?
    
    

How do the people in the stands explain the fact that both the Rockies
*and* their opponents score more in Denver than away?

Steve

What, are the fans passing so much gas that they blow the balls outta the
park?

TTom

    Many of the players from opposing teams say the fans help them get into
    the game. Better concentration... Remember these guys need the money
    and the Rockies are making lots of it still. 
    
    Jeff

    Why do golf balls travel 20 yards or more further when playing in
    Colorado?  During the tournament where they use that Stableford system,
    it's well known that there is pretty much a two club difference for 
    players when compared to playing at sea level.
    
    So, Paul Gronowski's 110 yard drives with his Big Bertha would now go
    a buck thirty!  At a minimum!
    
    					Steve

    
    Probably the best study of the effect of elevation on baseball
    was one done on the Texas League, where over the course of a
    decade all the parks had essentially the same dimensions, but
    the parks were at significantly different elevations - larger
    differences than were seen in MLB until the Rockies began.
    And in spite of constantly changing personnel, many more HR
    were hit in the high elevation parks, by both the home and
    away teams.
    
    "Park effects" encompass many things - elevation just happens
    to be the most significant right now, because there's more
    of a discrepancy between Colorado & everyone else then any
    foul territory or fence distance differences.
    
    The degree to which Colorado effects performance is enormous.
    A really great hitter - a Thomas, or Griffey, or even someone
    who just hits HR like Gonzalez - could be _expected_ to break
    Maris' HR record playing half their games in colorado.  Mo
    Vaughn, playing in Colorado, would have over 50 HR by now.
    Mark McGwire would likely have over 50 HR by now, even _with_
    his injuries.  The effect is that big.
    
    And so OK players having OK years (read - Bichette) and poor
    players having peak years (read - Castilla) look like MVPs,
    unless you adjust the stats.
    
    Joe

    
    Since when is Castilla a poor player. He made the All-Star team this
    year! To date has 9 errors for the season and should be in the running
    for the Gold Glove for 3rd basemen. 

    
>     Since when is Castilla a poor player.
    
    Actually, he's always been a poor player.  This year, he's having
    a freak season, and is a little (and just a little) above average.
    
>    He made the All-Star team this year! 
    
    Whoopee.  Jorge Orta made the all-star team one year too.
    
>    To date has 9 errors for the season and should be in the running
>    for the Gold Glove for 3rd basemen. 
    
    Errors are an almost worthless defensive statistic, as are Gold
    Glove (just count the number of times you hear someone say
    "he'd have won the GG if only he'd hit a bit better").  Easiest
    demonstration:
    
    3B A stands perfectly still, but gets all 80 balls hit right to him.
    
    3B B has incredible range, but make one error every 20 plays.  As
         a result, he makes 20 errors and 380 plays.
    
    Which player is more valuable defensively?  Clearly player B.  But
    errors & fielding percentage both say player A is superior.
    
    Clay Davenport has created a statistic called "equivalent average".
    What it messures is the ability of a player to create runs.  It
    factors in power & walks, and is normalized to a neutral park in 
    the 1992 AL.  An equivalent average of .270 is OK; .300 is good;
    .330 is great; on the other side, .230 is poor, and anything lower
    tends to land you out of baseball.
    
    Castilla's equivalent averages each time he's gotten 150 AB:
    
    .189
    .202
    .208
    .236
    .219
    .217
    .284 - 1995
    
    Which one doesn't fit?
    
    Joe

    
    This is his full season in the bigs. How do figure he's always been a
    poor player. The man worked hard in winter ball, comes in and makes the
    team. Makes the All-Star team, and you determined that he's a poor player.
    Maybe you should change jobs and become a GM for the Indians 
    
    I bet you could find thousounds of players that wish they were that poor.

    
>    This is his full season in the bigs. How do figure he's always been a
>    poor player.
    
    Very simple - minor league numbers, viewed properly (the ballpark
    and talent level must be accounted for) are as valuable in evaluating
    a player as major league numbers are.  And Castilla's minor league
    numbers are poor.
    
>    The man worked hard in winter ball,
    
    I'm not stating or implying that he doesn't work hard, or that
    he isn't a good person, or anything like that.  Just that, as
    a baseball player, he's poor as compared to other major league
    ballplayers.
    
>    comes in and makes the team. Makes the All-Star team, and you 
>    determined that he's a poor player.
    
    Yes, I did; I would have said the same thing before the season
    began.  He's having far and away the best year of his career -
    in terms of rate of production - and is _still_ just barely above
    average.
    
>    Maybe you should change jobs and become a GM for the Indians 
 
    I'd love _some_ of the job of the GM.  There _are_ things I
    think I could do very well.  There are others that I'm sure I'd
    be poor at, in part because I wouldn't enjoy them in the least.
       
>    I bet you could find thousounds of players that wish they were that poor.
    
    Heck, I could find millions.  Again, I'm calling Castilla poor
    _in comparision to other major league ballplayers_.  _Not_ in
    comparison to pro ballplayers as a whole (he's undoubtedly above
    average in that group) or everyone who plays baseball (he's
    clearly among the top 1% in that group).
    
    But, frankly, his past performance and present performance strongly
    suggest:
    
    1) He's a poor hitter.
    
    2) He's likely to see his numbers drop 15% or more next year.
    
    It's not a given; it's not _completely_ unheard of for someone
    to learn to hit at the age of 27.  But it's a 1 in 100 or 1 in
    1000 type shot; lack of progress previously suggests that that
    isn't the case here.
    
    Joe

    
    Joe,
    
    Since you are privy to lots of cool stats, what is the average NL road
    average and what is Castilla's road average this year.  Not using this
    for any argument, just curious how his first full year is really doing.
    
    Marc
    

    
    Unfortunately, since ESPN shut off half their web site, I don't have
    current access to home/road breakdowns.  I don't believe the stats
    I posted here previously have significantly changed, though.
    
    Joe

     >   So, Paul Gronowski's 110 yard drives with his Big Bertha would now go
    >    a buck thirty!  At a minimum!
     
    Yeh, but what about all that spin he put's on'em

    
    The Rockies now have four player with over 30 dingers. Second time this
    feat has been accomplished. Galarraga got his 30th on Tuesday In
    San Diego.
    
    John Vanderwal broke the 17 year old pinch hit mark of Jose Morales last 
    night with a dinger in the 7th. 26 Pinch hits in 134 games.

    
>    The Rockies now have four player with over 30 dingers. Second time this
>    feat has been accomplished. Galarraga got his 30th on Tuesday In
>    San Diego.
    
    Which is about the equivalent of having four players with over 20 HR
    in a normal park, or 15 HR in Dodger Stadium...
    
    Albert Belle, if he were playing for the Rockies and had a normal
    home field advantage, would right now have 57 home runs, with 10
    games to play.
    
    The numbers we'll see when a really great player gets to Coors
    Field will be scarry.  Heck, even just a good year from Walker
    and you've got scarry numbers... put Griffey there and you'd
    better stock up on fireworks...
    
    Joe

>    Which is about the equivalent of having four players with over 20 HR
>    in a normal park, or 15 HR in Dodger Stadium...

	In your opinion...
    
>    Albert Belle, if he were playing for the Rockies and had a normal
>    home field advantage, would right now have 57 home runs, with 10
>    games to play.
 
	In your opinion...

	All this homefield talk (and the Coors Field park effects)
	reminds me of the garbage about Maris and the right field
	line in Yankee stadium only being 296'.  

Claybone

    
    Albert Bell played at altitude with the SkySox back when he was Joey
    Bell. The Cleveland fans ran him out of town with his bad attitude and
    lack of hustle.
    
    Funny how a name change and a winning season can change the fans 
    perspective of a player.
    
    It took the Rockies 134 game to set the record were it took the
    Dodger's all season. Baker got the 30th on his last at bat during the
    162nd ie; last game of the season. 
    

Albert didn't only change his name.  He changed his attitude.  He wouldn't
have had seasons like this one and last one otherwise.

Steve

    I heard on sports radio last night someone correcting the ESPN report
    that the Rockies were the second team to have 4 30 home run hitters. 
    The one they mentioned was the Dodgers I think, the caller said the Red
    Sox did it in 77 (Rice, Lynn, Scott, Hobson I think were the names
    mentioned).  Ted Sarandis agreed.
    
    Sorry about the "I thinks", this is from memory that I wasn't
    expecting to use...
    
    Todd  

    
    	Where's the Ninja when we need him?
    
    Claybone

    
    During the period that has been leading up to this event, no mention of
    any other foursome but the Dodgers. With all the stats guys that work
    for these networks. I doubt they would have missed Boston doing it the
    year before the Dodgers. Then who knows they could be wrong.    

    
>>    Which is about the equivalent of having four players with over 20 HR
>>    in a normal park, or 15 HR in Dodger Stadium...

>	In your opinion...
    
>>    Albert Belle, if he were playing for the Rockies and had a normal
>>    home field advantage, would right now have 57 home runs, with 10
>>    games to play.
 
>	In your opinion...

    No, neither is my opinion - both are fact (well, the first one
    is exaggerated a little to make a point - the total in Dodger
    Stadium would be closer to 18, I think).  If you take Belle's
    actual numbers for this year - 44 HR - and give him the _average_
    offensive effect of Coors - 30% - you get 57 HR.  Actually, thats
    extremely conservative, since the boost in HR is larger than the
    boost in general offensive numbers.  If you want _opinion_, see
    my MVP picks.
    
>	All this homefield talk (and the Coors Field park effects)
>	reminds me of the garbage about Maris and the right field
>	line in Yankee stadium only being 296'.  
    
    OK, if you wish to continue not believing in park effects in spite
    of _tons_ of evidence (heck, even the mediots realize that park
    effect exists and does significantly influence numbers), fine.
    That's certainly your right.  But if I do nothing more than apply
    the available park effect, and state that that's what I'm doing,
    then what I'm presenting is not opinion.  It's my opinion that
    reality would match my statements, but that's another can of
    worms...
    
    Joe

>    No, neither is my opinion - both are fact (well, the first one
>    is exaggerated a little to make a point - the total in Dodger
>    Stadium would be closer to 18, I think).  If you take Belle's
>    actual numbers for this year - 44 HR - and give him the _average_
>    offensive effect of Coors - 30% - you get 57 HR.  Actually, thats
>    extremely conservative, since the boost in HR is larger than the
>    boost in general offensive numbers.  If you want _opinion_, see
>    my MVP picks.
 
	Yes, it is your opinion.  Based on some mathematical *model*
	I'm sure.  The key word being model.  The ball still has
	to be pitched by a real person and knocked out of the yard
	by a real person.  Your model is nothing more than a SWAG.
	It is not fact.
   
>    OK, if you wish to continue not believing in park effects in spite
>    of _tons_ of evidence (heck, even the mediots realize that park
>    effect exists and does significantly influence numbers), fine.
>    That's certainly your right.  But if I do nothing more than apply
>    the available park effect, and state that that's what I'm doing,
>    then what I'm presenting is not opinion.  It's my opinion that
>    reality would match my statements, but that's another can of
>    worms...
 
	Don't get me wrong.  I believe in park effects.  I just don't
	use them to downgrade somebody's accomplishments.  

Claybone

>    During the period that has been leading up to this event, no mention of
>    any other foursome but the Dodgers. With all the stats guys that work
>    for these networks. I doubt they would have missed Boston doing it the
>    year before the Dodgers. Then who knows they could be wrong.    

Cadzilla,

I'm pretty sure the '77 or '78 Red Sox did this.  They had a year where
Hobson hit 31 HR out of the #8 slot in the lineup.  Can't say I'm absolutely
sure, though, and I don't have the appropriate references.  But Rice had
46 HR one of those years, Lynn had 39, blah, blah, blah...  I remember them
beating Toronto 8-0 once on 7 homers.

The Dodgers are probably being emphasized on Rockies' telecasts because:
	a) we're sure they did it :-)
	b) they're in the Rockies' division and fighting with them for the
	   division title, so it's of infinitely more interest to Rockies
	   fans.

Roland

    
>>    No, neither is my opinion - both are fact (well, the first one
>>    is exaggerated a little to make a point - the total in Dodger
>>    Stadium would be closer to 18, I think).  If you take Belle's
>>    actual numbers for this year - 44 HR - and give him the _average_
>>    offensive effect of Coors - 30% - you get 57 HR.  Actually, thats
>>    extremely conservative, since the boost in HR is larger than the
>>    boost in general offensive numbers.  If you want _opinion_, see
>>    my MVP picks.
 
>	Yes, it is your opinion.
    
    NO IT'S NOT.
    
>       Based on some mathematical *model* I'm sure.  The key word 
>       being model.
    
    NO IT'S NOT.
    
    The _only_ numbers I am using for Coors (nay, the only ones _available_
    to use) are the actual performance numbers from this year.  It's
    not as statistically significant a sample size as the numbers for,
    say, Fenway; however, we are talking about thousands and thousands
    of at bats in Coors alone, plus nearly as many from the Rockies'
    road games.  I'm not modeling anything, simply taking the average
    effect and applying it - which is all I ever _said_ I was doing.
    
>       The ball still has
>	to be pitched by a real person and knocked out of the yard
>	by a real person.  Your model is nothing more than a SWAG.
	It is not fact.
    
    Again, it's not a model.  All I am relying upon is the facts of
    the matter - and the facts are that offensive numbers in Coors
    are over 60% _higher_ than in an average NL park.  The fact that
    the ball _should_ travel further in Coors has nothing to do with
    my statements - I'm only using the _facts_ of what has happened.
    
    Joe

    
    	They were probably indicating that the Rockies. Were the 2nd
    NL team to have 4 players hit 30 hrs in a season. Thus, they were
    ignoring the AL teams.
    	I would think that 1 of the bronx bombers teams like '27. Had
    4 guys hit 30 hrs before.
    
    Ron

    
    Joe,
    
    	Opinion, prediction, whatever you want to call it.  You haven't
    	posted any facts concerning how Walker, Bichette, Castilla, and
    	Cat would fare playing for the Dodgers.  Do you know why?
    
    	Albert Belle hitting 57 homeruns for the Rockies is not a fact
    	either.  Do you know why?
    
    Claybone

    
    So, then, if Joey Belle played for the Rockies, they's always get to
    play at home???
    

    
>    	Albert Belle hitting 57 homeruns for the Rockies is not a fact
>    	either.  Do you know why?
    
    I NEVER SAID HE WOULD!
    
    Please re-read what I wrote: I said that -if Belle had an average
    Coors home field advantage- he would have 57 home runs right now.
    
    Let me try it another way:
    
    It is my opinion that, if he played for the Rockies, Belle would
    have about 57 home runs right now.
    
    If is a fact that, if you apply the best available adjustment
    available for Coors field currently to Belle's numbers, you get
    57 home runs.
    
    The _latter_ is all that I stated.
    
>    	Opinion, prediction, whatever you want to call it.
    
    I was making _no_ prediction whatsoever.  I certainly do make
    predictions, but in this case was not doing so.
    
>       You haven't
>    	posted any facts concerning how Walker, Bichette, Castilla, and
>    	Cat would fare playing for the Dodgers.  Do you know why?
    
    Yes - unless I've got a time machine tucked up my sleeve, I have
    no way of knowing.  But I can make a prediction (which, IMHO, isn't
    the same as an opinion _anyway_, but that's another matter) based
    upon their performances.  Heck, if Bichette signs w/ the Dodgers,
    I not only would _predict_ he won't hit 30 HR, I'd bet _money_ on
    it if given the opportunity (assuming even odds, or thereabouts)...
    
    Joe

    
>    So, then, if Joey Belle played for the Rockies, they's always get to
>    play at home???
    
    No, he wouldn't.  If we were to apply an -every-game-in-Coors-
    adjustment to Belle's number from this year, we get 70 HR so far...
    
    Joe

    I looked through the Baseball Encyclopedia yesterday and found that the
    '77 Red Sox only had 3 players hit 30 home runs:
    
    Rice     39
    Scott    33
    Hobson   30
    Yaz      28
    Fisk     26
    Lynn     18
    Evans    14
    
    I also looked through the glory years of the Yankees.  It was typically
    Ruth and Gehrig with over 30, nobody else even close.  Then Gehrig and
    DiMaggio for a year or two, then Mantle and Maris.  The Mantle/Marris
    years were the best shot for 4 30 HR hitters, but they never managed to
    do it all in the same year.
    
    The '77 Dodgers did it with
    
    Garvey  33
    Smith   32
    Cey     30
    Baker   30
    
    
    Todd

    
>                            -< quacks like a model >-
>
>    	Opinion, prediction, whatever you want to call it.  You haven't
>    	posted any facts concerning how Walker, Bichette, Castilla, and
>    	Cat would fare playing for the Dodgers.  Do you know why?
    
    The home/away HR numbers for these guys are well-documented and
    are not opinion, prediction, model, or anything else but fact.
    Speaking of something so obvious as to quack...
    
    glenn
    

    
    Yahbut, Walt Weiss has 100% of his home runs on the road 8^)
    
    Heard an amazing stat.  Apparently, with 2 outs already recorded, Walt
    Weiss's on-base percentage is over .400.  Not bad for a #8 hitter.
    
    � game lead with 7 to go and 3 with the Dodgers, let the fun begin.
    
    Marc
    
    P.S.  As an aside, the Rockies have been playing .500 ball ON THE ROAD
    during crunch time.  Both the Dodgers and the Rockies had 8-3 or 9-3
    runs during the stretch.  Neither team is folding.  Unlike some other
    western team.
    
    

    
>    Yahbut, Walt Weiss has 100% of his home runs on the road 8^)
>    
>    Heard an amazing stat.  Apparently, with 2 outs already recorded, Walt
>    Weiss's on-base percentage is over .400.  Not bad for a #8 hitter.
    
    Hmmm... smells like a red herring...
    
    In the NL, walking the #8 hitter when it can "safely" get you to the
    picher is a standard strategy, particularly when there are men on base.
    There are more men on base for the Rockies than for just about anyone
    else as a result of playing in Coors.  Therefore...
    
    Nothing against Weiss - but that stat doesn't impress me.
    
>    P.S.  As an aside, the Rockies have been playing .500 ball ON THE ROAD
>    during crunch time.

    Another tribute to the Rockies very good pitching staff.  They might
    have the best bullpen in the NL; only St Louis is close.
    
    Joe

    
    Hmm, now that you mention it, my statement must not be accurate.  There
    was something more that make it impressive.  Maybe it was .400 average
    not .400 on-base percentage.
    
    No, now that I think of it, it actually makes sense.  With 2 outs
    already recorded, the pitcher says, "hey, if I can get this guy out,
    then the pitcher will be an easy 1st out next inning"  I think the key
    here is the 2 outs part.  With 0 or 1 outs, I would agree with your
    assessment.
    
    Marc
    

    
    Actually, it's _with_ 2 outs that a #8 hitter would be the most
    useful to walk.  With 0 or 1 out, the pitcher can simply sacrifice.
    With 2 outs, the pitcher is forced to try to hit.
    
    Joe

    
    I should say: I think walking a #8 hitter with 2 outs is usually
    bad strategy myself, but it certainly is done freuently - the NL
    intentional walk leaders are almost always a bunch of #8 hitters
    and Barry Bonds.
    
    Unfortunately, McWeekly doesn't print IBB numbers these days...
    
    Joe

from .270
    
>>    	Albert Belle hitting 57 homeruns for the Rockies is not a fact
>>    	either.  Do you know why?
    
>    I NEVER SAID HE WOULD!

from .262

>>>    Albert Belle, if he were playing for the Rockies and had a normal
>>>    home field advantage, would right now have 57 home runs, with 10
>>>    games to play.

	Yes Joe, you did say it.  Have you figured out why you're
	wrong yet?


from .262

>    No, neither is my opinion - both are fact (well, the first one
>    is exaggerated a little to make a point - the total in Dodger
>    Stadium would be closer to 18, I think).  If you take Belle's
>    actual numbers for this year - 44 HR - and give him the _average_
>    offensive effect of Coors - 30% - you get 57 HR.  Actually, thats
>    extremely conservative, since the boost in HR is larger than the
>    boost in general offensive numbers.  If you want _opinion_, see
>    my MVP picks.

from .270
   
>    Please re-read what I wrote: I said that -if Belle had an average
>    Coors home field advantage- he would have 57 home runs right now.
    
>    Let me try it another way:
    
>    It is my opinion that, if he played for the Rockies, Belle would
>    have about 57 home runs right now.
    
>    If is a fact that, if you apply the best available adjustment
>    available for Coors field currently to Belle's numbers, you get
>    57 home runs.
    
>    The _latter_ is all that I stated.

	So, is it an opinion or a fact?  You're going around in
	circles.  One would also have to agree with the principle of
	applying your *adjustment*.  I don't.
 
    
glenn,
    
>>                            -< quacks like a model >-
>>
>>    	Opinion, prediction, whatever you want to call it.  You haven't
>>    	posted any facts concerning how Walker, Bichette, Castilla, and
>>    	Cat would fare playing for the Dodgers.  Do you know why?
    
>    The home/away HR numbers for these guys are well-documented and
>    are not opinion, prediction, model, or anything else but fact.
>    Speaking of something so obvious as to quack...
     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                        ^
			|
	This some kind of slam at me?

	I think this whole arguement is ridiculous.  There are too many
	factors that come into play concerning whether or not a ball
	will leave the yard to be able to accurately say player X
	would really do this if he played for another team.

	Post the HR ratios for these four guys.  Post the ratios for
	the top 10 HR hitters in each league while you're at it (excluding
	the afore mentioned four players).  Seriously, I don't know what
	they are.

Claybone 

>	This some kind of slam at me?

    No, just a wordplay on your preceding title.  I do think that the
    effect from Coors Field is very obvious...
    
>	I think this whole arguement is ridiculous.  There are too many
>	factors that come into play concerning whether or not a ball
>	will leave the yard to be able to accurately say player X
>	would really do this if he played for another team.
    
    There's not a whole lot of precision in it when applied to a single 
    player.  But when you're looking at whole teams, or parts of teams
    (like X players hitting 30 HRs, or whatever), the effect is obvious.
    That's what started this.  When you have 4 players and/or a whole 
    team with that big a home/road split, there is only one major factor, 
    and that's Coors Field.  It's also completely consistent with
    expectations from a ballpark with very normal outfield dimensions
    placed at a mile-high altitude.
    
    I would have to agree with the general opinion that 4 Rockies hitting
    30 HRs is not that big a deal.  I expect Rockies' hitters to continue
    to match this and other feats over the years.  This is not
    belittlement, just straightforward analysis.
    
    glenn
    

    
    	I don't agree glenn.  Why didn't they have 4 players hitting 30+
    	dingers in '93 and '94?  If you expect them to keep this HR
    	derby up in upcoming years, you're going to be disappointed.
    	That's an opinion and a prediction BTW!  :*)
    
    	Also, let's see those well documented numbers I requested.
    
    Claybone

    
>    	Also, let's see those well documented numbers I requested.
    
    The numbers as of mid-August are back in .189 and .205.  Of the 
    98 HRs hit by those 4 players, 70 were hit at Coors Field.
    For both the Rockies and their opponents, the Coors/away ratio
    was better than 2:1 (and I'm not buying the increased motivation 
    due to large crowds-- why doesn't that work for the pitchers too?).  
    No, I don't have numbers for the top 10 HR hitters in the league, but 
    I can assure you that these kind of splits are not close to normal.
    
    glenn
    

    Colorado factor discussions aside, anyone hear anything about last
    nights game?  Pretty big game with pennant going down to the wire.

                                                           
    Rockies took it 7-3. Walker had back to back dingers. Saberhagen gave 5
    good innings with his swollen rotator cuff. The team pulled togetrher
    last night. After Saberhagen got out of a man on third and one out jam 
    getting Piazza and Karros both to pop out, Walker hit his first HR to
    tie. Later on Holmes got out of a bases loaded situation getting a
    popout and a K to finish the Dodger 6th.
    
    One more game tonight, then it's home for four against the Giants. The 
    Dodgers finish on the road with three games in San Diego. After Thurs game
    the two team will have played the same number of games.
    
    The Dodgers are still 1/2 game ahead of Houston in the Wildcard race.
     

...what do they have for a rotation if Saberhagen can't make his starts?
Whatever it is, I think Rekar should be involved - from what I've seen of him
he looks pretty solid.

    
    	Who's selling the increased motivation/large crowds theory?
    	Not me.  No other numbers (ie other clubs/top 10 HR hitters
    	and how they perform road vs home)?  No comments concerning
    	'93 & '94?  How 'bout a p-name wager on the Blake St. Bombers
    	all hitting 30 (or more) next year?  :*)
    
    Claybone

>	How 'bout a p-name wager on the Blake St. Bombers
>    	all hitting 30 (or more) next year?  :*)

I'd bet that three of them will...  I'm with Joe H. re: Vinny Castilla -
he'll never be this good again.

In fact, I'd even be willing to bet that Bichette, Gallaraga, and Walker are
among the three or more that do it.  What the hey, it's only a p-name!

Of course, we'll both have to be here through next year :-)

On an unrelated note:

	I love watching the Big Cat's stance!  Too cool-looking... :-)

    
>  No comments concerning
>  '93 & '94?  How 'bout a p-name wager on the Blake St. Bombers
>  all hitting 30 (or more) next year?  :*)
   
    Oh, I don't think it'll happen every year, or necessarily often
    (hey, the Rockies weren't that good in '93 and '94-- plus Mile 
    High also had at least one deep outfield-- and the specific 
    players they field is not predictable).  But major offensive 
    milestones will occur regularly...
    
    glenn
    

RE<<< Note 99.285 by IMBETR::DUPREZ "The stars might lie, but the numbers never do..." >>>

>...what do they have for a rotation if Saberhagen can't make his starts?
>Whatever it is, I think Rekar should be involved - from what I've seen of him
>he looks pretty solid.

  Here's the Colorado Rockies pitching staff as of week 20 from our Rotisserie
Freeze Stats. Check GS for games started.

  George

COL Rockies Pitchers W  L   G GS CG GF SH SV   IP    H   R  ER HR  BB  SO
Roger Bailey         7  6  36  6  0  9  0  0  78.1  82   0  42  7  39  32
Marvin Freeman       3  7  21 18  0  0  0  0  94.1 122   0  62 15  39  61
Joe Grahe            4  2  15  8  0  0  0  0  52.2  59   0  27  4  26  25
Bryan Hickerson      3  3  54  0  0 13  0  1  47.0  62   0  42  7  27  38
Darren Holmes        6  1  60  0  0 31  0 14  61.0  53   0  19  3  27  53
Curt Leskanic        6  2  68  0  0 20  0  8  90.2  76   0  33  6  32 100
Mike Munoz           2  4  59  0  0 17  0  2  41.1  49   0  33  7  26  37
David Nied           0  0   2  0  0  0  0  0   4.1  11   0  10  2   3   3
Lance Painter        2  0  29  1  0  5  0  1  42.1  51   0  20  8  10  34
Steve Reed           5  2  63  0  0 15  0  3  73.2  55   0  17  8  18  72
Bryan Rekar          4  4  12 12  1  0  0  0  74.0  79   0  38 10  20  57
Armando Reynoso      6  6  17 15  0  0  0  0  78.2 102   0  46 10  30  31
Kevin Ritz           9 10  28 25  0  3  0  2 153.2 157   0  75 15  59 107
Bruce Ruffin         0  1  27  0  0 18  0 10  25.1  18   0   6  1  12  18
Bret Saberhagen      6  6  23 23  3  0  0  0 145.2 151   0  63 19  29  94
A.J. Sager           0  0  10  0  0  2  0  0  14.2  19   0  12  1   7  10
Bill Swift           7  2  16 16  0  0  0  0  88.2 103   0  54 10  38  61
Mark Thompson        2  3  18  5  0  3  0  0  45.1  70   0  37  7  20  25

4.62 ERA, 1.338 Ratio, the only complete game registered by someone other
than Saberhagen.

Given most of the alternatives, he looks pretty decent.

Who is Curt Leskanic?  His numbers jump out at you.  He's a reliever, though.

    
    	Curt Leskanic is finishing his first full year in the bigs. He came
    up last year but couldn't handle the pressure. He got an new attitude and
    has been pretty good. 2nd on the staff with K's for a reliever is 
    not to bad. As you may see this Pitching staff has gone up and down
    with it's starters with many on the DL. Rekar came in from a few weeks in 
    AAA and did okay,but fell apart a few times and has been struggling to 
    retain his early success. 
    
    I still have problems with some of the people the front office buy off the
    wire. They've picked a few that have just not worked out or were out of it
    before they got here. Saberhagen has had one maybe two good starts with
    his dead arm. Swift came in and has not produced.
    
    The people keeping them in the race are the rookies and 2nd year guys. 
    Ritz, Bailey and Rekar (for awhile) have kept the starting rotation
    in balence. David Nied has been a bust and Reyenoso is still not at 100%
    
    
    Myself I think Baylor should be considered for NL MoY for keeping this 
    team in the race most of the year. He's done a pretty good job of
    working the staff and getting the most of the fielders. 

    If indeed not one of those pitchers has 10 wins yet (not sure about
    week 20 meaning?) then I'm with you.  Lasorda for bum of the year for
    not winning with the dodgers is another.

    
    Right now, Ritz has 11 wins.  However, the fact that the Rockies are
    "currently" in 1st with noone having more than 11 wins is an impressive
    job of juggling your pitching rotation.
    
    If Saberhagen can't pitch, I don't think anyone is really going to
    notice.
    
    Marc
    

    
    Rockies got thumped last night by the Giants 12-4. Bonds started it 
    with a three run dinger in the first and it went downhill from there.
    
    Were now a full game behind the Dang Doogers

    
    
    Rockies split series with the Giants and lock up the NL wild card.
    After a day off, Atlanta comes to town the for first two games of the
    best of five. With the current condition of the Rockies pitching staff
    this series wont last long.  Atlanta has had little trouble beating
    the Rockies in the past. 
    
    
    This was a great season for the third year team. No expansion team has
    ever made it in to post season play in just three years. Many will say
    it the new league structure or the Coors field effect. But they still
    had to play 144 games like all the others. Don Baylor should be a lock
    for NL MoY. 

    
    Sorry, I've been on vacation.  Let me try to get this through one
    more time.
    
>from .270
>    
>>>    	Albert Belle hitting 57 homeruns for the Rockies is not a fact
>>>    	either.  Do you know why?
>    
>>    I NEVER SAID HE WOULD!
>
>from .262
>
>>>>    Albert Belle, if he were playing for the Rockies and had a normal
>>>>    home field advantage, would right now have 57 home runs, with 10
>>>>    games to play.
>
>	Yes Joe, you did say it.  Have you figured out why you're
>	wrong yet?
    
    NO I DID NOT.  _READ_ WHAT I SAID - Albert Belle, if he were playing
    for the Rockies AND HAD A NORMAL HOME FIELD ADVANTAGE, would right now
    have 57 home runs, with 10 games to play.
    
    I did _not_ say that if was playing for the Rockies he'd have 57
    HR at that point.  I _did_ say that, if we apply an _average_ home
    field advantage to Belle, he'd have 57 HR.
    
>	I think this whole arguement is ridiculous.  There are too many
>	factors that come into play concerning whether or not a ball
>	will leave the yard to be able to accurately say player X
>	would really do this if he played for another team.
    
    There are _not_ too many to make a reasonable guess, though.
    
    Joe

    
>    Right now, Ritz has 11 wins.  However, the fact that the Rockies are
>    "currently" in 1st with noone having more than 11 wins is an impressive
>    job of juggling your pitching rotation.
    
    Actually, to a large extent it's also a result of Coors Field.  Ritz
    (who's one of the best pitchers in the NL this year, btw) has managed
    11 wins in spite of pitching in Coors, where the extremely high
    offensive levels do a lot to reduce the chances of a starter getting
    a win.  I wish I had the numbers, but I'd bet that the percentage
    of games won by the starting pitcher in Coors is lower than at any
    other stadium.
    
    Joe

    
    >I wish I had the numbers....
    
    No bet 8^)
    
    Marc
    

    
>    NO I DID NOT.  _READ_ WHAT I SAID - Albert Belle, if he were playing
>    for the Rockies AND HAD A NORMAL HOME FIELD ADVANTAGE, would right now
>    have 57 home runs, with 10 games to play.
 
	I did read what you said.  Geez.  Belle can't have a normal
	home field advantage for the Rockies playing for the Indians.
	Get it?  You try and pawn this off as a fact and it ain't.
    
>    There are _not_ too many to make a reasonable guess, though.
 
	Aha.  So it is a guess.  Call it a guess.

Claybone

    
>>    NO I DID NOT.  _READ_ WHAT I SAID - Albert Belle, if he were playing
>>    for the Rockies AND HAD A NORMAL HOME FIELD ADVANTAGE, would right now
>>    have 57 home runs, with 10 games to play.
 
>	I did read what you said.  Geez.  Belle can't have a normal
>	home field advantage for the Rockies playing for the Indians.
>	Get it?  You try and pawn this off as a fact and it ain't.
    
    I was never trying to state as a fact that Belle, on the Rockies,
    would have had 57 HR.  It's not a fact; it's the statistically
    most likely result, but I'm sure the range of possibilities would
    be rather large.
    
    It all comes down to the same point, in any case - Coors Field
    distorts statistics to a level never seen before.  As a result,
    Bichette is considered an MVP candidate while Ritz is not, even
    though (after adjusting for Coors) it's Ritz who had the most
    impressive season.
    
    Of the Rockies 30 HR guys, the only player I'm fairly certain will
    hit 30 HR again is Walker.  Gallaraga _might_, but I sincerely doubt
    it; I suspect Bichette will sign elsewhere, and won't approach 30 HR
    again - though even if he stays at Coors, I'm not convinced he'll
    necessarily hit 30 HR again.  If Castilla ever approaches his '95
    numbers again, I'll be shocked.
    
    Joe

    
    	What a game....Rockies lost 5-4, but that's not half the
    	story.  Lance Painter as a pinch hitter in the 9th with
    	2 outs and bases loaded?
    
    	Glenn
    

    
    Glenn,
    
    The reason Lance Painter was the pinch hitter was that the Rockies had
    already used ALL of their pinch hitters with the exception of pitchers. 
    Therefore, since Lance is one of the better hitting pitchers, he got
    the chance.
    
    Three innings in a row with bases loaded.
    
    Marc
    

  The announcer said something about one of the potential pinch hitters being
used up as a pinch runner. Anyone catch that? I didn't get the name.

  George

    
    Hubbard went in for Castilla, after hit the double. I assume Castilla
    was injuried? No real reason to pull him as a baserunner.

    
    Just what Coors does to offense:
    
    Rockies...              RunScored               RunsAllowed
    
    HOME                      485                     490
    AWAY                      300                     293
    
    72 games at each
    
    
    In home games, the the Rockies score 6.736 rpg, allow 6.806.
    
    In away games, they score 4.167 rpg and allow 4.069.
    
    Rockies scoring is increased by 61.7% at Coors Field.
    Opponents scoring goes up by 67.2%.
    
    The overall increase in scoring is by 64.4%.
    
    Joe

What is the average difference between Home and Away scoring?

Mike

Given .306, Claybone, I stand corrected.  You got 1.825 ducks, not 1.8.

    
> What is the average difference between Home and Away scoring?
    
    I have no idea; it's irrelevant to the question of Coors' park
    effect, though.
    
    It is interesting (though probably not statistically significant)
    that the Rockies actually gained _less_ from Coors than did their
    opponents...
    
    Joe

    
> Given .306, Claybone, I stand corrected.  You got 1.825 ducks, not 1.8.
    
    Nah, he still gets credit for all 3 ducks; it's just that it's
    only as difficult as hitting 1.825 ducks at sea level...

    
    	In your opinion....  :*)
    
    Claybone

...keep in mind that the ducks only scored 4.26.  So it was closer
than it looked.  :-)

>> What is the average difference between Home and Away scoring?
>    
>    I have no idea; it's irrelevant to the question of Coors' park
>    effect, though.
    
    It damn well better be 0...
    
    
    glenn
    

I assume that there is some drop off in scoring when a 
team is on the road.  The difference between the average
drop off and the Coors drop off should be the more telling
statistic.

Mike

>I assume that there is some drop off in scoring when a 
>team is on the road. 

Why?  Some teams play in a pitcher's park - scoring would
go *up* on the road.

I would think that comparing the average number of runs scored
in a Coors Field game against the average number of runs scored
in all National League games would be the best mode of comparison.

    
> I would think that comparing the average number of runs scored
> in a Coors Field game against the average number of runs scored
> in all National League games would be the best mode of comparison.
    
    No, that has an inherent bias - a good offensive team would effect
    the scoring in their home park more than anywhere else (since they
    play the most games there).
    
    The best measure is total scoring in home & road games by a team
    & their opponents.
    
    Joe

    
    One more interesting Coors field stat:
    
    Only 5 times all year (in 72 games) did a team win in Coors in
    spite of scoring 4 runs or fewer:
    
    June 4 :  4-1 -- Joe Grahe beats Paul Wagner and the Pirates
    June 16:  2-0 -- Tom Glavine and the Braves shut out Billy Swift
    July 5:   4-2 -- Kevin Ritz beats Darryl Kile and the Astros
    July 9:   4-1 -- Marvin Freeman beats Pedro Martinez and the Expos
    August 20:4-2 -- Curt Leskanic beats Turk Wendell and the Cubs
    
    Joe

    
    So when the a team wins with 4 runs or less in Coors, the Rockies are
    4-1, wow, obviously then the key to the game is to keep the opponent
    under 4 runs >8^)*
    
    Marc
    

    
    Of course, that doesn't help against the Braves, since they're 1-0...
    B^)
    
    Does Coors field serve Duck?
    
    Joe

    
    	No, but if you sit in an outfield seat, you'd better duck
    	cuz of all those dingers headed your way.
    
    Claybone

    
    More Coors oddities...
    
    In 17 (of 72) games at Coors, the _losing_ team scores 7 or more runs.
    
    In the 72 games the Rockies played outside Coors, a team scoring 7 runs
    or more _never_ lost.  Not once.
    
    In Coors, a team scoring 1-3 runs won (as noted previously) once.
    
    In Rockies road games, a team scoring 1-3 runs won 21 times.
    
    In Coors, the winning team scored 6 runs or fewer 19 times.
    
    In Rockies road games, the winning team scored 6 runs or fewer 53
    times.
    
    Joe

    
>What is the average difference between Home and Away scoring?
    
    OK, now I've got the stats...
    
    Home and away scoring:
    
    Atl - 322 home, 323 away
    Cub - 339 home, 354 away
    Cin - 358 home, 389 away
    Col - 485 home, 300 away
    Fla - 331 home, 342 away
    Hou - 321 home, 426 away
    LA  - 281 home, 353 away
    Mon - 303 home, 318 away
    NYM - 308 home, 349 away
    Phi - 336 home, 279 away
    Pit - 329 home, 300 away
    Stl - 311 home, 252 away
    SDP - 304 home, 364 away
    SFG - 305 home, 347 away
    
    Average - 331 runs scored at home, 335 runs scored on the road.
    
    If anyone wants further home/way scoring data, let me know...
    
    Joe

    
    Hmm, let me see if I got this straight.  The Rockies had the at least a
    tie in the eighth inning of each of the first three games with the
    Braves, winning the third in extra innings beforing a Brave onslaught
    in the fourth game.
    
    The Indians scored *2* earned runs in the first two games with the
    Braves, win the third game in extra innings before being able to score
    only 1 run off the Braves "backup" pitcher (Avery).
    
    Obviously the Rockies are far better than the Indians (many 8^)
    
    Marc
    

    
    
    Don Baylor has been named National League Manger of the Year. Baylor
    had 122 points. Davey Johnson of the REDs came in second with 89
    points.
    
    Now all we need is for Bichette to win the MVP and this season will be
    complete. 

    
    IMHO, Baylor was a poor choice (Pinella, OTOH, was reasonable, though
    there are others I would have preferred).  However, it wasn't a
    complete travesty or anything like that.
    
    Now, Bichette as MVP - that would be among the _WORST_ choices for 
    MVP baseball's ever seen.
    
    Significantly better MVP picks: Grace, R. Sanders, Larkin, Conine,
    Biggio, Bagwell, Karros, Piazza, Mondesi, Caminiti, Gwynn, Bonds.
    And there's a lot of guys who would be _better_ choices, just not
    by as large a margin...
    
    Joe

Relax, Joe - the guy is excited for his team...

Bichette just got re-signed, didn't he, Cadzilla?

    I think Bichette will be runner up to Maddox which may make Joe madder.
    
    Statavision,Colorado factor or whatever the runs still count and
    Bichette knocked them in and the Rockies wouldn't have been in playoffs
    without him doing same.

    
    No, Maddux is fine, and Nomo would be as well - I just happened
    to be looking at hitters.
    
>    Statavision,Colorado factor or whatever the runs still count and
>    Bichette knocked them in and the Rockies wouldn't have been in playoffs
>    without him doing same.
    
    1) Runs are only usefull when they translate into wins.  A run
       at Coors field is worth significantly less than a run in
       any other field.  This is basically the same adjustment as
       park factor, just looking at it from another angle.
    
    2) The Rockies very well _might_ have been in the playoffs without
       Bichette - their strength was in their pitching (especially
       relief), not their offense.
    
    w.r.t. Grace & Caminiti:
    
    Bichette created (adjusting for park) 93 runs, while providing
    poor defense.
    
    Grace created 103, Caminiti 104.  And I'm _certain_ Caminiti was
    more useful defensively than Bichette...
    
    Joe

    
    How do you compare a third baseman to a converted right to left
    fielder. Bichette was first in Home runs ,hits , total bases third in
    ave and I think fifth on the doubles list.  He plays left better than
    Joey Bell.
    
    As far as the pitching staff being better than the offense, now thats a
    joke. Worst era in the league. No real reliable starting pitchers. Ritz
    was the only pitcher to have 10 wins. The bullpin came to more game
    than any other team in the majors. Baylor performed a major juggling
    act when it came to this pitching staff. 

>    As far as the pitching staff being better than the offense, now thats a
>    joke. Worst era in the league. No real reliable starting pitchers. Ritz
>    was the only pitcher to have 10 wins. The bullpin came to more game
>    than any other team in the majors.

Basically, it ties in to the same "park effects" argument.  Given that so
many runs are scored at Coors, the ERAs are higher, and Baylor *has* to 
go to the bullpen earlier and more often...

    
>    How do you compare a third baseman to a converted right to left
>    fielder.
    
    Good question.  IMHO, the 3rd baseman is more valuable, because
    the average offensive output from a 3rd baseman is lower - that
    is, if you have a LF and a 3B putting up the same numbers, the
    3B has better numbers _relative to his position_.  I also believe
    (though certainly can't prove) that 3B is the more difficult
    position defensively.
    
>    Bichette was first in Home runs ,hits , total bases third in
>    ave and I think fifth on the doubles list.
    
    All because he plays in Coors field.  Have you seen his road
    numbers?  They're pretty bad - a sub .400 slugging percentage
    isn't pretty.
    
>    He plays left better than Albert Belle.
    
    Possibly.  The gap isn't large, and is shrinking (Bichette hasn't
    been above average defensively since 1991; Belle has never been
    above average, but sometimes comes _near_ average.)  Belle might
    have been better in 1993.
    
>    As far as the pitching staff being better than the offense, now thats a
>    joke. Worst era in the league. No real reliable starting pitchers. Ritz
>    was the only pitcher to have 10 wins. The bullpin came to more game
>    than any other team in the majors. Baylor performed a major juggling
>    act when it came to this pitching staff. 
    
    I honestly hope the Rockies believe that, and that the Tribe picks
    up some of the castoffs.
    
    Again, take a look at just the road games for a minute: the Rockies
    had the third best ERA in the league outside Coors, and the second
    fewest runs scored.  Yes, Baylor went to the bullpen a lot - which
    makes sense, because it takes more pitches to win a game in Coors,
    and his bullpen was the strongest element of the team.
    
    BTW, the aforementioned Kevin Ritz deserves the MVP more than Bichette.
    
    It all comes down to this: for every run scored in a neutral park,
    1.65 were scored in Coors.  This isn't anything new; PCL league
    numbers have been skewed for years.  But if you don't take these
    things into account, you end up doing stupid things like giving
    Bichette the MVP and letting Steve Reed go.
    
    Joe 

    
    
    
    	I do not see to many castoffs from the staff. My point is that the
    starting pitchers lived on the DL most of the year. Without the run
    production the Rockies had this year, they are in big trouble. Baylor
    juggles the available staff and wins 77 games after scoring lots of
    runs.
    
        As for Bichette left field abilities, it was his first year in
    left and he still played better than Joy Belle. Belle has been in left
    since making the squad after his second or third cup of coffee.
    Bichette was scheduled to possible play  third until Castilla stepped
    his game up and began starting at the hot corner.
    
        

The 1996 edition of Stats, Inc.'s Major League Handbook has just arrived,
and that means (among other things) that I now have the park effects data
for the season just completed.

If anybody out there still doubts that park effects are real, take a look
at the data for Coors Field:

           HOME GAMES                        AWAY GAMES

     Rockies     Opp   Total         Rockies     Opp   Total  Index
AB	2515	2679	5194		2479	2363	4842	107
AVG	.316	.315	.315		.247	.254	.250	126
Runs	 485	 490	 975		 300	 293	 593	164
Hits	 794	 843	1637		 612	 600	1212	135
Dbls	 140	 165	 305		 119	 112	 231	123
Tpls	  31	  28	  59		  12	   8	  20	275
HR	 134	 107	 241		  66	  53	 119	189
LH Avg	.322	.315	.318		.252	.278	.266	119
LH HR	  33	  36	  69		  23	  21	  44	144
RH Avg	.313	.315	.314		.245	.236	.241	130
RH HR	 101	  71	 172		  43	  32	  75	215

The index is home frequency divided by road frequency times 100; the
frequencies are per at bat.  Thus, it was 115% easier for a right
handed hitter to hit the ball out of Coors Field than of the average
of the rest of the National League Parks.

These numbers are unreal.  Typical for most parks are indices of 85 to 115,
with an occasional higher number in an unusual season in a single category.
This ballpark is a threat to the record books.  Larry Walker hit 36 home
runs (24 at home); his previous career high was 23.  Dante Bichette hit
40 (31 at home); his previous high was 27--at Mile High.  His pre-Colorado
career high:  15.

If this franchise ever signs a Mark McGwire or a Matt Williams, stand back,
Babe and Roger.  If it ever drafts one, stand back, Henry.

Steve

  It's a Colorado Rockie Mountain high.
  I see it rain'en hommers in the sky.
  Shadows on the base paths, of batters go'en buy,
  Rockie Mountain high, Colorado.

                                 George, With apologies to John Denver

John Denver should apologize to you, your lyrics are much better than his.

Steve (who loves John Denver about as much as Uncle Duke does)

Worst


Dante Bichette and Vinny Castilla, Colorado 

                       ab  r  h rbi bb so lob   avg 
Bichette rf             4  0  0  0   0  1   1  .000
V Castilla 3b           3  0  0  0   1  0   1  .000


After terrorizing National League pitchers last season with 40 homers, 
128 RBI and a .340 average, Dante Bichette has gone south to open 1996. 
The Colorado right fielder has no hits in two games, as does his 
slugging partner Vinny Castilla. Castilla hit .309 with 32 homers and 90 
RBI last year. The pair has combined to go 0-for-14 (0-7 Wednesday) with 
five strikeouts through two games in Philadelphia. Of course, the 
Rockies are on the road, far from Coors Field, the pinball machine of 
baseball. They close with the Phillies Thursday and play three in 
Montreal before staging their home opener in Denver on Monday. 

Yes, those two-game samples are extremely meaningful...

    
    Yep next thing you know the Rockies will be the Cowboys of MLB. Like
    I'm sure these are the only two players in the league with a ofer in the
    first two games. 
    
    I don't think anyone has to worry about the Rockies this year. Still no
    pitching, lost another starter last night. Freeman went down with a
    groin pull in the 4th or 5th inning. Swift and Saberhagen are still on
    the DL and no one down here in AAA to help out.

I'm sure there is more than these 2 that 0-fers. Just trying to show that
somethings never change. What? The fact that these guys suck away from Coors
and Dante had no business being in the running for MVP.........

Cad, we already have the Yankees as baseball's answers to the Cowboys what more
do we need?

mike

Clemens was already at the South pole how much further can he go??????//

    
    hey using the 2 game  logic the Pirates are the dominant team!

    
    After a two game slump, Mr. Childs in his infinite wishdom has declared 
    they are both undeserving of last years success because they play at 
    Coor's Field. A player cannot go out and have a great season without
    the critics finding a reason for their success.  
    

    
    	Nah, Mikey is just tired of spinning up Marty so he's pickin'
    	on po' po' Dante/Vinny.  ;^)
    
    Claybone

    
    Yo Mike, how come there was no mention of the *11* preseason homeruns
    by Galaraga (All games away from Denver BTW).  Dante hit something like
    .130 in the preseason, give him some time.
    
    Seems to me that Griffey was also 0-fer in his first two games.
    
    Marc
    

Cause those were the only stats in the article I was reading. I don't follow
baseball closely but wasn't the Cat one of the few who hit for power  on the
road as well as at home?

Cad I also said last year that their stats were overblown due to Coors and
that they were undeserving then. 

You folks aren't any fun you're too easy to tweek.....

;^)

mike

    
    And next you'll be saying the Braves were not deserving either. Atlanta
    is the second highest MLB city in elevation. 

      Well, Dante just hit a double with 2 RBI's.  Got to see it during
    lunch/dinner break.
    
      Um, didn't Dante, Larry Walker and big cat do well on the road last
    year?  Vinnie definitly struggled on da road.
    
      I think people take the elevation thing to serious when it comes to
    baseball.  Does it help that much?  Nah, since denvers air is thick and
    brown.  The thing is, players get it in their heads that they can do
    better in coors field, and thus they do.
    
      I never hear these complaints about the Sky Sox, though AAA, they
    play at a higher altitude than da rockies.
    
      As Cadz said, the rockies pitching will still be the problem this
    year.  The pen will be spent by 1/2 season, unless Swift and Saberhagen
    heal, which Saber may be done for good;-(
    
      Tim

RE           <<< Note 99.348 by BSS::JACKSON "Ice off has started!" >>>

>      I think people take the elevation thing to serious when it comes to
>    baseball.  Does it help that much?  Nah, since denvers air is thick and
>    brown.  The thing is, players get it in their heads that they can do
>    better in coors field, and thus they do.
    
  Yes it does help that much. I don't know about brown but Denver's air is
not thick. At 5000 feet there isn't nearly as much air pressing down from
above and the density of the air is thin.

  I've mentioned this before, but if you've ever flown a small airplane you
know how dramatic the difference is between ground level density altitude,
5000 feet density altitude, and 9000 feet density altitude. Density altitude
measures the effective air density for any given altitude and temperature.

  On a cold winter day in New England with 0 feet density altitude a small
plane will jump off the runway and it feels like a high speed elevator going
up. On a hot summer day in New England with 9000 feet density altitude a
small plane will drag it's tail over the trees at the end of a 3000 foot
runway. The difference is remarkable.

  In Denver I'm sure 9000 foot density altitude or greater is common in the
summer which would mean the air is extremely thin. People not use to it would
feel signs of altitude sickness and a ball would go like a shot. Also there
should be less movement on a pitch.

  It's no illusion, density altitude is real. You are required to know how to
calculate density altitude before you can get your private pilots license
because it is that important and the effect on anything flying through the
air is that dramatic.

  George

    
    	George,
    
      We beat this horse last year. The air is thinner, it makes a
    difference. Curves don't break as much, and the ball leaves the yard
    faaster. But to say that thin air the only reason a player had a good 
    year is pure bovine scatology. 

    
    Good year: Lead or in top five of all the offensive categories

    
    	One could argue that since you play 50% of the games on the road,
    half of your production (HR's and RBI's) should be on the road and the
    other half at home, its called consistency and balance. If I'm not
    mistaken Dante Bichette, hit 40 hrs last year, with 35 being at Coors
    Field.  Which translates to 87.5% of his HR's were at Coors Field,
    which is a hugh number that can only be accounted for by, 1) Parks
    effects and the thin air, 2) The confidence the park creates in his
    mind.
    
    Ron

You forgot the relatively duck-free air (thanks to Claybone)...

>    Good year: Lead or in top five of all the offensive categories
    
    Oh goodness - with that requirement, even ignoring park effects
    a good year has probably _never_ happened.  Maybe Bonds has done it,
    but he's the only player offhand that might come close.
    
    But the fact remains - you must adjust for park effect before
    comparing stats in order to have a fair comparison.  Now, Bichette,
    Walker, and so on certainly didn't have _bad_ years last year; they
    just had decent seasons (Bichette's being the best of his career,
    but not by _too_ much; Walker's being possibly the worst of his
    career, but still a bit better than Bichette).  Castilla had a less
    impressive season (and one that's _way_ out of line for his career -
    he's the guy we should expect to fall flat on his face this year),
    but not a _bad_ year.  No _hitter_ on the Rockies had an MVP season.
    
    As I've said before, the reverse needs to be done with the pitchers.
    Reed had one of the most remarkable seasons of all time for a middle
    reliever, if not _the_ most remarkable, for instance.
    
    BTW - Bichette hit 31 HR in Coors, 9 on the road.  A player who plays
    in Coors will, on average, see their overall HR production go up by
    about 60%, based upon last year's data.
    
    Joe

    
    Joe,
    
    	I know we went round and round about this last year but I'd
    	like to discuss this 60% figure you mentioned.  How do you
    	arrive at that number?
    
    	To me, it should be nothing more than a matter of physics.
    	I think the figure I've heard is that the ball will travel
    	10% farther up here.  They purposely made Coors Field larger
    	to try and account for this.  The way folks in here discuss
    	the park effects of Coors Field, Walt Weiss should be hitting
    	around 10 HRs a year.  To my knowledge, he only hit a couple
    	like he usually does.
    
    Claybone

    
>    	I know we went round and round about this last year but I'd
>    	like to discuss this 60% figure you mentioned.  How do you
>    	arrive at that number?
    
    Very simple: I looked at the numbers.  I don't believe these were the
    final numbers, but they didn't change significantly late in the year:
    
HomeRuns                Rockies         Opps

    In Coors                92              61
    Other Games             40              27
    
    Thus, HR production when in Coors is 128% higher than that outside
    Coors.  A player who has Coors as their home park would thus expect
    a little less than a 64% increase in their HR total.
    
>    	The way folks in here discuss
>    	the park effects of Coors Field, Walt Weiss should be hitting
>    	around 10 HRs a year.  To my knowledge, he only hit a couple
>    	like he usually does.
    
    Weiss is affected, as is everyone, but 1.64 * 0 still equalls 0...
    
    Specifically, for Weiss:
    
    91-93: in 301 games, Weiss hit 1 HR.
    
    94-95: in 247 games, Weiss hit 2 HR.
    
    Weiss doesn't buck the trend in any way, shape, or form.  He just has
    so little power that a 64% increase in his HR totals does nothing
    interesting.
    
    Joe

>The way folks in here discuss
>    	the park effects of Coors Field, Walt Weiss should be hitting
>    	around 10 HRs a year.

Well, I don't think he ever hit one out of the infield in Oakland Coliseum...

    
    
    My mistake, Bichette was only top five in HR 1st, hits 1st, total bases 1st, 
    average 3rd and doubles 5th.  But none of these figure count because he
    played half his games at high altitude. 
    
    I guess if he got lucky and hit 62 dingers this year, the record would not 
    count since some of them would have been hit at high altitude.
    
    
    

    
>    Very simple: I looked at the numbers.  I don't believe these were the
>    final numbers, but they didn't change significantly late in the year:
    
>HomeRuns                Rockies         Opps

>    In Coors                92              61
>    Other Games             40              27
    
>    Thus, HR production when in Coors is 128% higher than that outside
>    Coors.  A player who has Coors as their home park would thus expect
>    a little less than a 64% increase in their HR total.
 

	Wait a minute, there has only been one season played at
	Coors Field.  The Rockies played at Mile High in 93 and 94.
	What are the numbers for those years home and away?  Mile
	High had a very short porch in left BTW.
   
	We don't have many datapoints yet but I'm willing to count
	a full season as valid.  I seem to recall making a wager
	with somebody in this file last year concerning this issue.
	I maintained that this was nothing but an anomaly (4 guys hitting
	30 HRs each).  Was it you?  My prediction is that this won't
	happen this year.  

	How did other teams do WRT home/away HRs hit last year?  My
	guess is that teams hit better at home than on the road.

	No comments on the physics hypothesis?
    
>    Weiss is affected, as is everyone, but 1.64 * 0 still equalls 0...
 
	Ha!  Good point.  ;^)
   
>    Specifically, for Weiss:
    
>    91-93: in 301 games, Weiss hit 1 HR.
    
>    94-95: in 247 games, Weiss hit 2 HR.
    
>    Weiss doesn't buck the trend in any way, shape, or form.  He just has
>    so little power that a 64% increase in his HR totals does nothing
>    interesting.
 
	I don't think Weiss supports the trend either.  How about somebody
	like Joe Girardi or Ellis Burks?  Keeping in mind there has only
	been one season played at Coors Field......

Claybone

    
    	Some people believe that if a Frank Thomas, Albert Belle, Barry
    Bonds, or Ken Griffey, play half of there games in Coors field that
    62 Hr's is possible. Those 4 players typical hit the same amount of
    HR's at home as they do on the road. I believe Mo Vaughn has 21 Hr's
    at Fenway and 18 on the road, for his 39 Hrs, which is pretty
    consistent.
    
    Ron

  One of those sluggers in Coors plus the even thinner pitching rotations
after next year's expansion draft and you can take that to the bank.

  George

>    My mistake, Bichette was only top five in HR 1st, hits 1st, total 
>    bases 1st, average 3rd and doubles 5th.  But none of these figure 
>    count because he played half his games at high altitude. 
    
    Sure they count.  Always have.  But they aren't as impressive
    as they would at first sound, because Bichette played in Coors.
    Someone can put together a less impressive performance (in terms
    of raw numbers) elsewhere and be a better player.
    
>    I guess if he got lucky and hit 62 dingers this year, the record would not 
>    count since some of them would have been hit at high altitude.
    
    Again, sure it counts.  Records are nearly _always_ set under unique
    conditions.  The record for doubles was set by a player with Fenway
    as his home park.  Nearly every offensive record has been set in a
    hitters park at a time when hitting has dominated (see the 1930s);
    nearly every pitching record has been set in a pitchers park at a
    time when pitching dominated (see the 1960s).  Records are simply
    that - records.  It would be much more impressive if someone hit 62
    HR playing in Dodger Stadium 1/2 the time, but it's not going to
    happen.
    
    Joe

>	Wait a minute, there has only been one season played at
>	Coors Field.  The Rockies played at Mile High in 93 and 94.
>	What are the numbers for those years home and away?  Mile
>	High had a very short porch in left BTW.
 
    I don't have the home and away number for those years; sorry.
    they weren't as bad as last year, but still were of historic
    proportions.  No park in baseball has as big an effect as either
    park in Colorado.  
    
>	We don't have many datapoints yet but I'm willing to count
>	a full season as valid.
    
    I agree, we'll be better off when we have more.  I suspect that
    the actually inflation, over time, will be closer to 50% (HR-wise)
    and 25% (overall offense - last year, it was ~30%).  But we'll
    know more in a few short months.
    
>      I seem to recall making a wager
>	with somebody in this file last year concerning this issue.
>	I maintained that this was nothing but an anomaly (4 guys hitting
>	30 HRs each).  Was it you?  My prediction is that this won't
>	happen this year.  

    Could be.  I wouldn't bet on it happening during any given year, but
    we _should_ expect it to become a fairly regular event -unless
    steps are taken to give back more control to the pitchers in general-.
    The expanded strike zone _might_ keep it from happening - we'll see.
    
>	How did other teams do WRT home/away HRs hit last year?  My
>	guess is that teams hit better at home than on the road.

    Sorry, I don't have the numbers, or I'd post them.  In general,
    the home field advantage in baseball is very small, though...
    
>	No comments on the physics hypothesis?
 
    Not really.  Physics was never my thing; I suspect that a 10% effect
    would be sufficient to produce the effects we're seeing, though...
       
>>    Weiss is affected, as is everyone, but 1.64 * 0 still equalls 0...
> 
>	Ha!  Good point.  ;^)
>   
>>    Specifically, for Weiss:
>    
>>    91-93: in 301 games, Weiss hit 1 HR.
>    
>>    94-95: in 247 games, Weiss hit 2 HR.
>    
>>    Weiss doesn't buck the trend in any way, shape, or form.  He just has
>>    so little power that a 64% increase in his HR totals does nothing
>>    interesting.
> 
>	I don't think Weiss supports the trend either.
    
    I agree.
    
>       How about somebody
>	like Joe Girardi or Ellis Burks?  Keeping in mind there has only
>	been one season played at Coors Field......
    
    OK - I just realized, I have at bat data, too, so I'll use that.
    
    Girardi -
    
    91 (Cubs): 0 HR in 47 AB
    92 (Col):  1 HR in 270 AB
    93 (Col):  3 HR in 310 AB
    94 (Col):  4 HR in 330 AB
    95 (Col):  8 HR in 462 AB
    
    Not really enough pre-Colorado data to say anything.
    
    Burks:
    
    91 (Boston): 14 HR in 474 AB - 1 every 34 AB
    92 (Boston): 8 HR in 235 AB - 1 every 29 AB
    93 (WhiteSox): 17 HR in 499 AB - 1 every 29 AB
    94 (Colorado): 13 HR in 149 AB - 1 every 11 AB
    95 (Colorado): 14 HR in 278 AB - 1 every 20 AB
    
    Overall, Burks went from 1 HR every 31 AB to 1 HR every 16 AB when
    he went to Colorado.  He's a fair example - if he had more AB in
    Colorado, he'd be a great example.
    
    How about Larry Walker?
    
    91-94 (Montreal) - 80 HR in 1900 AB - 1 every 24 AB
    95 (Colorado) - 36 HR in 494 AB - 1 every 14 AB
    
    Walker's HR production increased by almost precisely the average.
    
    Or Bichette:
    
    91 (Milwaukee) - 15 HR in 445 AB - 1 every 30 AB
    92 (Milwaukee) - 5 HR in 387 AB - 1 every 77 AB
    93 (Colorado) - 21 HR in 538 AB - 1 every 26 AB
    94 (Colorado) - 27 HR in 484 AB - 1 every 18 AB
    95 (Colorado) - 40 HR in 579 AB - 1 every 14 AB
    
    Joe

    
    Ron,
    
>    	Some people believe that if a Frank Thomas, Albert Belle, Barry
>    Bonds, or Ken Griffey, play half of there games in Coors field that
>    62 Hr's is possible. Those 4 players typical hit the same amount of
>    HR's at home as they do on the road. I believe Mo Vaughn has 21 Hr's
>    at Fenway and 18 on the road, for his 39 Hrs, which is pretty
>    consistent.
    
    I'll go one step further.
    
    62 HR isn't just possible, it's _inevitable_.  It's not even going
    to require a Thomas, or Bonds, or Griffey, or Belle to do it - 
    there are dozens of players who could do, and the cream of them almost
    certain would set the record, and could very well pass it with
    ease.
    
    Joe
    

    
    Claybone,
    
    I agree with you that the actual physical effects of Colorado are less
    than the perceived one, but you put out a challenge I will try to
    answer without any actual facts.
    
    What percentage of balls hit by a HR hitter end up as long fly outs in
    the warning track?  Tack on the 10% or whatever it is and you could see
    a 64% increase in homeruns. 
    
    The ONLY way you are going to determine what percentage increase should
    be occuring, is to determine how far each and every ball hit into the
    outfield goes at sealevel.  Determine the standard deviation.  Apply
    the 10% or whatever it actually is and re-calculate the standard
    deviation.
    
    *I* would not at all be surprised if the final numbers 10 years from
    now should a 50% increase in homeruns.  However, I would not expect the
    air to make as large a difference in doubles (average maybe, but not
    doubles).  I'm more curious how those numbers came out.
    
    Marc

    
    BTW - I don't mean to imply that Bichette had a poor year last
    year - even adjusting for his park, he did have a very good year.
    The following is a list of all the players (adjusted for park
    effects) who had better years both in terms of rate of production
    and total production:
    
    Mark Grace
    Reggie Sanders
    Barry Larkin
    Craig Biggio
    Jeff Bagwell
    Eric Karros
    Mike Piazza
    Ken Caminiti
    Tony Gwynn
    Barry Bonds
    
    Not producing as well as those players is nothing shameful; there's
    a very impressive list of players who Bichette clearly out-produced,
    and a few who produced similarly.  All in all, a very good year for
    Bichette, but also one clearly above his proven level of ability,
    and given that he wasn't < 27 years old last year, unlikely to
    continue this year.
    
    Joe 

    
    Marc,
    
    	That's what I'm getting at.  If somebody kept track of warning
    	track outs, we might be onto something.  I know they keep track
    	of distances for HRs hit at Coors Field (estimated anyway).  If
    	we could get that number, we could deduct 10% and see if they
    	still clear the fence (not taking into account trajectory).
    
    	Thanks for the info Joe.  I went back a few notes and .322 is very
    	telling (also your Ellis Burks/Larry Walker data).  Is the
    	offense at Coors Field due solely to the added HRs?  I'd be
    	surprised if it were.  I think things will level off though.
    	The Rockies starting pitching is/was not good.  That combined
    	with their good hitting last year I think skews the data.  They
    	did not hit that well at Mile High with a short porch in left.
    	Their pitching still stunk though.  :^)
    
    Claybone
    
    ps	It was Waugaman who's gonna wear the p-name of my choice this year!

        Geez, I guess I stirred the pot;-)  I wasn't in here lasted year;-(
    
       Someone did mention pitched balls don't break as well in "thin" air,
    but shouldn't someone that normally throws a 85mph fastball be able to
    throw it 92mph?  Just curious since I haven't heard anything mentioned
    on this, and I'm no physics person.
    
       Tim 

  Remember, the effect thin air would have on velocity would have nothing to do
with the initial speed, it's only effect would be to decelerate the ball much
slower. 

  A pitch takes such a short amount of time to travel from the mound to home
plate as it is that it doesn't seem it would slow a ball from 92 to 85. But
it would have an effect on the break that happens at the plate due to pressure
built up during the pitch.

  George

    
>    	Is the offense at Coors Field due solely to the added HRs?
    
    No; the HR are just the most dramatic element.  BA and doubles
    are up (I'm not sure about triples) as well; other elements might
    be.
      
>       I'd be surprised if it were.  
    
    So would I, though it's certainly theoretically possible...
    
>    I think things will level off though.
    
    Level off _where_?  With Coors as a neutral park?  Not bloody likely.
    Below last year's level?  Possible.  But if Coors isn't the best
    hitter's park in the league over the next ten years, I'll eat my hat...
    
>    	The Rockies starting pitching is/was not good.
    
    Maybe not _good_, but it _was_ above average.
    
>      That combined with their good hitting last year I think skews 
>      the data.
    
    No, it doesn't.  And no, they didn't hit well last year.  They
    were -next to last- in road scoring, even if you _don't_ include
    opponent's games in Coors in the totals.
    
    Now, they weren't a particularly _bad_ hitting team last year; they
    did hit better (relatively; obviously they're going to absolutely
    hit better in Coors) at home; still their starting pitching was better
    than their offense.  And neither was in the same league as their
    relief pitching, which was simply incredible.
    
>    They
>    did not hit that well at Mile High with a short porch in left.
>    Their pitching still stunk though.  :^)
    
    They've been building quite a staff, though.  If they stay healthy,
    their pitching is sufficient to win a pennant.
    
    The problem is that for the Rockies to win a pennant, they will have
    to lead the league in runs scored by _gobs_.  Look at Red Sox pennant
    teams and contenders, and what do you see - average (ERA-wise)
    pitching, and league leading runs scored totals.  The Rockies are
    even more severe a case; their staff can be dead last in ERA and
    still be average, but their offense has to be at least 20% above the
    next highest to be capable of leading a team to a pennant.
    
    The Rockies _do_ have some players to build around, though,
    offensively.  Walker's a better player than he showed last year,
    Gallaraga's sufficient (though likely to get old soon), and
    Bichette's become and average player (well above that last year).
    The Rockies could dearly use a catcher who can hit, and more players
    who take walks.  They'll need a 3B when Castilla collapses.
    
    Joe

      Does anyone know who is pitching for the Rockies on thursday?
    
      My daughters choir is singin' the national anthem (no Rauf) and I'm
    taking the rest of the kin to watch...
    
      Tim

  This just in from USA Today on the WWW.

    Colorado: In winning four of five on their recent trip, Rockies
    starters posted a 2.61 ERA with three consecutive seven-inning
    outings. Coors Field probably won't allow the Rockies to pitch that
    well during a five-game homestand that began Wednesday night.
    The Rockies are batting .340 and averaging seven runs a game at
    home. Opponents are batting .343 and averaging 8.3 runs at Coors
    Field. On the road, the Rockies are batting .227 and scoring 3.8
    runs a game. Opponents are batting .234 against the visiting
    Rockies and scoring 4.4 runs a game.

  George

once again the evidence is overwhelming. Except for the Big Cat the Rockies
batters' stats should be taken with a grain of salt.........

    
>once again the evidence is overwhelming. Except for the Big Cat the Rockies
>batters' stats should be taken with a grain of salt.........
    
    There's no "except" about it.  While Gallaraga _doesn't_ hit more HR
    in particular in Colorado, his batting stats there are still better 
    overall.
    
    You just might need a smaller salt shaker...
    
    Joe

    Mayber they should trade for that noted slugger Kevin Stocker!
    

      And yesterday was UGLY!  Rekkar was sent down to find himself;-).
    
      Tim

What was it, 11 earned runs in 2 1/3 innings?

And he has pretty good stuff, too.  I can't see how you can avoid having your
confidence destroyed by pitching at Coors Field...

  I saw an interesting thing on USA Today's WWW page about the new plan for
Coors Field. Seems that now they are going to try growing the infield grass a
little deeper. They were saying that now the pitchers have to strike everyone
out since everything hit in the air goes so far so they are going to try to
give them an advantage if they can keep it on the ground.

  George

    Sorry George the length of the infield grass isn't going to change 
    how far a ball fly's. The basic problem is that here in teh Rocky
    Mountains the ground is just beginning to grow grass. The infield 
    grass at Coors was having some growing problems. So they decided not to
    mow it against the Marlins last weekend.
    
    Jeff

RE                       <<< Note 99.380 by BSS::RIGGEN >>>

>    Sorry George the length of the infield grass isn't going to change 
>    how far a ball fly's. 

  No one said it would. The implication was that longer grass would
slow down balls on the ground.

  George

      And the people chasing dem balls...

    
    
    
      > No one said it would. The implication was that longer grass would
      > slow down balls on the ground.
    
     So we won't be seeing any of those exciting worm burner's leave the
    yard at Coors?  Or are you implying that the longer grass would make
    pitchers keep the ball down thus getting more ground balls.  

    Letting the grass grow longer at Coors will have a negligible effect
    on hitter's averages and run-scoring, regardless.  There's a point
    at which longer grass actually helps a hitter.  The Detroit Tigers
    with their shoddy pitching tried such an approach in recent years and 
    even crusty ol' Sparky had to admit that it didn't work.
    
    glenn
    

RE <<< Note 99.383 by AD::HEATH "The albatross and whales they are my brother" >>>

>     So we won't be seeing any of those exciting worm burner's leave the
>    yard at Coors?  Or are you implying that the longer grass would make
>    pitchers keep the ball down thus getting more ground balls.  

  I'm not implying anything. I just related a story I saw in the USATODAY
Rockies home page on the WWW. Here's what it said with the only change being to
make it fit into 80 cols. 

Tuesday, May 7 

Hitters still have an advantage with balls hit in the air at Coors Field, but
it will be tougher for them to get a groundball hit. The infield grass has been
cut higher, and GM Bob Gebhard said it will stay that way. ''There was no
logical way for pitchers to get hitters out unless they struck them out,'' he
said. ''Balls hit in the air go a little farther; there's a big, huge outfield
and then all the groundballs were shooting through there, too. We can let the
grass grow a little taller, but we can't change the air. Someplace, you have to
look at pitching, too, and try to do something that's right for them.'' . . .
The complete game RHP Kevin Ritz threw Sunday was his second in the majors,
first in seven years. It was also the first-ever by a Rockies pitcher at Coors
Field and only the staff's second in two years. 

http://web.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/sbn/sbn04.htm

  George

	Well, the Rockies road woes continue. They lose 2 out of 3 in 
Philadelphia, head to NY tonight.  But the good news is that Ellis Burks is 
hitting .346, has 19 homers (2 yesterday) and 62 RBI.  Didn;t Burks play for 
Boston a while back?

Kevin

  Yes, Ellis Burks played for the Red Sox a few years back and after that he
spent some time playing for the White Sox. 

  He's been a good (not great) player all along and is now benefiting from
playing in Coors field. He's been with the Rockies 2 or 3 years but he's missed
a fair amount of time first because he was injured then because he had to win
his job back from Mike Kingery. 

  Kingery has since gone to the Pirates where's he's really struggling and
Burks is now playing for the Rockies full time and having a career year.

  George

    
    The Rockies tied a major league record on Monday. Seven straight wins,
    with at least seven runs scored. The record is also held by the 1938
    Yankees ( Gerhig, DiMaggio ,Bill Dickey) and the 1971? Cincinatti Reds
    (Rose, Bench,Perez, Foster)  

    WHO keeps track of these things...
    
    Red Sox's tied an all time record this week, 100 straight games
    where each player spit at least 100times :-)

    
     >>WHO keeps track of these things...
    
    The danged announcers doing the broadcast. These guys now have some
    much information at their hands. They could spend the whole game
    listing stats or records. 
    
    
    I'm still waiting for someone the throw in the Coor's Field effect. 

    
    Is the seven game win streak also a home win streak?
    
    Marc, who is still in vacation mode

>    I'm still waiting for someone the throw in the Coor's Field effect. 
    
    At this point it goes without saying.  The field is damned near
    100% responsible for these records.  Otherwise the Colorado Rockies
    are a run-of-the-mill, mediocre ballclub.
    
    Looks like I might win that outrageous p-name bet on the Rocks 
    putting up another four 30-HR hitters this year.  It's not in the
    bag but it'll be close.  Vinny Castillo is having another "great" 
    season, and if Larry Walker hadn't been hurt, we might be talking
    about five 30-HR hitters...
    
    glenn
    

    
    Okay, who can explain how I read Glenn's message before typing
    reply and then end up having my reply before in the note.
    
    
    Marc

    
    
    
        Its that Coors field effect. Your typing at a higher Altitude
    therefore it gets here faster.
    
    
    Chap

    
    
    I agree the the Coor's field has a great deal to do with all the
    dingers. I do not see were it has anything to does with grounders
    threw the middle , down the line etc;  All of the hits these guys get
    is not due to thin air.  The road/home sceanario is another farce.
    How many teams in the league bat better on the road than at home? 
    Player's play better at home. They get into one of George's zones,
    they feel more relaxed, have had better rest, and they know the field.
    

   >> The road/home sceanario is another farce. How many teams in the 
   >> league bat better on the road than at home? 

      How many teams in the league have a more dramatic difference be-
      tween their road and home numbers than the Rockies? Put the
      Rockies in Busch stadium and they don't break squat for records.
    
    

    
    The other teams have the same thin air advantage as the Rockies in Coor's 
    Field. During a resent home/away stretch with the Dodgers, both teams
    split with 3 and 1 home records. They swept the Padres and are sweeping
    the Giants during the current home series. If both teams have the same
    thin air to play in why are the Rockies winning 10 of 11

    
> Player's play better at home.
    
    Unless they're Rockies' pitchers, apparently...
    
> If both teams have the same
> thin air to play in why are the Rockies winning 10 of 11
  
    Winning 10 of 11 or seven straight wasn't the "record" in question.
    Those feats have been accomplished many times.  The runs scored in
    those games was the record cited.  These records have become mundane 
    at this point.  We can only hold our breath and wait to see what
    might happen when the Rockies get some really _good_ hitters.
    
    How many teams in baseball history have scored more than *twice* as
    many runs at home as on the road?  The Coors Field effect is 
    undeniable; I don't know why anybody even bothers attempting to 
    deny it.
    
    glenn
    

    
    
    Glenn,
    
      I do not deny the Coor's Field effect. I'm only saying it's not the
    total reason for the Rockies ability to score runs. All the runs are
    not the result of dingers. Granted a hard hit fly will leave the yard
    at a greater rate than in any other ball park. But I do not see where
    Coor's Field has anything to do with a hard hit grounder that scores a
    runner from second that walked and stole second.  

    
    Simple:
    
    Pitched balls break less at high altitudes.  This makes the ball
    easier to hit (which inflated BA in Coors for both the Rockies and
    visitors testifies to - the difference in HR alone does not come close
    to accounting for the difference in BA).
    
    Joe

    
    
    Don't forget that fastballs are faster to Joe. A Dodger (Park) reliever hit
    100 on the fast gun a few weeks ago. Having watched appx 50
    games in Coors Field the only pitchers I see having problem with
    breaking balls are the knucklers. Curves and sliders are still getting
    batters out on both sides out. The hits come from the same places as 
    other parks. Those up in the zone or in the batters wheelhouse. 

     I think that alot of it is mental.  Players know they can hit it
    farther, thus they seem to concentrate on doing that.
    
     Was this thin air argument going when they were playing at Mile hi or
    just at Coors?
    
      You also have to remember, Coors Field is supposedly "sold out" every
    game.  I know the times I've gone, its been packed.  So the point is,
    the fans help big time.  Look at alot of these other teams that may get
    12k fans for their home games.  How many do they win at home?  The
    opposing teams like playing at places like that, 'cause it doesn't get
    to rocking, thus not as much "home effect".
    
     Tim

Speaking of Bill Dickey, I just wanted to verify that he passed away a few
years back, yes?

    
    	Could it be that the Rockies pitchers have learned how to pitch
    in the thin air? Do Rockies pitchers issue more walks away then at
    home? Ex. They start a slider or curve lower in the strike zone, 
    knowing that is won't break as much. While opposing pitchers who don't
    pitch much in Coors field, throw at there normal locations, leaving
    the ball slightly higher in the strike zone.
    
    Ron

    
    	I went to my first game at Coor's Field Saturday.  There were
    	five dingers hit (I think).  Three of them would not have made
    	it out at sea level given the same park dimensions (345 down
    	the lines, 390 in the alleys, 415 in center).  This is assuming
    	a 10% difference in distance travelled which is what I see
    	quoted often.
    
    Notes:
    
    	The park is beautiful.
    
    	It's friggin expen$ive to take a family there.
    
    	Roger Bailey is a class act.  There must have been 150-200 kids
    	along the first base line waiting for a Rockie autograph.  He
    	started down near the right field corner and gave an autograph to
    	all of them (worked his way to the dugout where my boys were
    	waiting).  It must have taken him 45 minutes.
    
    	There's still some good people out there.  There was a mad scramble
    	for a foul ball and a man came up with it.  This little boy was
    	dejectedly walking back to his seat.  The man tapped him on the
    	shoulder and gave him the ball.  Big ovation from the crowd.
    
    	They need more shuttles between the stadium and parking lot for
    	after the game.
    
    Claybone

>    	Roger Bailey is a class act.  There must have been 150-200 kids
>    	along the first base line waiting for a Rockie autograph.  He
>    	started down near the right field corner and gave an autograph to
>    	all of them (worked his way to the dugout where my boys were
>    	waiting).  It must have taken him 45 minutes.

Who's Roger Bailey?  I'm not trying to be snide - I honestly have never
heard of him.  He's certainly a nice guy if he signed 200 autographs.  If
he's a pitcher, I hope it was an off day for him - his wrist must get sore...

Of course, because this was Coors Field, it wasn't 150-200 kids, it was
90-120.  And it didn't take him 45 minutes - it really took him 27... :-)

    
    Tim,
    
>    I think that alot of it is mental.  Players know they can hit it
>    farther, thus they seem to concentrate on doing that.
    
    No, it's not mental.  Some of it _is_ physical; because of the
    difference on movement of pitches, Rockies players do seem to take
    a somewhat different approach, possibly.
    
    There's two key facts, here:
    
    1) Over a period of years, parks display certain tendencies, relative
       to the rest of the league.
    
       Over a _single_ year, this is not necessarily true; weather can
       overwhelm a single season's results (well, in outdoor stadiums).
       And changes to a park can most certain _adjust_ this characteristic;
       for a good example, look at what happened around 1990 when the
       Indians moved there fences to approximately East Guam.  But it's
       safe to say that Fenway's a hitter's park (even relative to the
       current league, which has many more good hitter's parks than in
       the past), and that the Oakland Coliseum is a pitcher's park
       (construction or no).
    
    2) There are a few key factors which determine _most_ of the hitting/
       pitching characteristics of a park.
    
       Dimensions obviously matter.
     
       Foul territory makes a significant, sometimes underrated difference.
    
       General weather characteristics make a difference.
    
       Altitude makes a significant difference.
    
    In his 1988 Baseball Abstract, near the end, Bill James published
    a key study.  As any scientist knows, the key to a comparative study
    is having all things equal.  In baseball, that's rather hard to do.
    But for around two decades, there were eight teams in the Texas
    League.  Each ballpark had the same dimensions.  Being a minor
    league, there was nearly a complete turnover of players from year
    to year.  But four of the eight ballparks were at high altitude
    (above 2000 ft, I believe), four at low altitude (below 500 ft, I
    believe).
    
    And guess what - with no one talking about the effects of thin air
    or anything of that nature, the number of runs scored by both the
    home and away teams at the high altitude parks were significantly
    higher (30% comes to mind, but I'll have to double check) than
    the runs scored in the low altitude parks.
    
>    You also have to remember, Coors Field is supposedly "sold out" every
>    game.  I know the times I've gone, its been packed.  So the point is,
>    the fans help big time.  Look at alot of these other teams that may get
>    12k fans for their home games.  How many do they win at home?  The
>    opposing teams like playing at places like that, 'cause it doesn't get
>    to rocking, thus not as much "home effect".
    
    Jacob's Field was sold out last year.  And both the Indians and
    their opponents scored _fewer_ runs at Jacob's Field than elsewhere.
    
    If there is a "home effect", why doesn't it work for Rockies pitchers
    or Tribe hitters?
    
    High altitude increases offense.  Extremely high altitudes (Denver,
    or much of the PCL) _dramatically_ increases offense.
    
    Joe

    
    Roland,
    
    	Yup, a pitcher.  Normally middle relief.  He started Sunday's
    	game, I believe, and pitched well.
    
    Claybone

    
    Yep  any MLB records from 1995 forward will have an note indicating
    if the record was set at altitude and therefore they are not real records.
    Oh well, thats life in a high altitude environment. Just think if
    Boston was at 5000 feet the REDSux might win a game.

    
>    Yep  any MLB records from 1995 forward will have an note indicating
>    if the record was set at altitude and therefore they are not real records.
    
    Actually, things were just as bad at Mile High.
    
    But a record is a record is a record; records are usually set under
    ideal conditions.  Hitting records set at Coors are every bit as
    valuable as sixties pitching records set at Dodger Stadium or
    the Astrodome or wherever. 
    
>    Oh well, thats life in a high altitude environment. Just think if
>    Boston was at 5000 feet the REDSux might win a game.
    
    Moving Boston to Denver wouldn't necessarily have any effect upon
    their ability to win.
    
    The Rockies won (well, enough) last year with good pitching and
    poor hitting.  This year, the hitting seems to have improved a
    bit; the pitching, stepped back.
    
    Joe

      Joe,
    
      I don't disagree that the better stats at coors are do to physical
    abilities, but I still say its also mental, ie, I can do this at home,
    but on the road I can't and don't.  The Rocks are proving that this
    year, hitting .223 on road.
    
      Stadium makeup does effect stats, but that true anywhere. Look at the
    pansy domes when balls are lost in the ceiling as an example.
    
      Why low run totals at Jacobs is happening, I can't tell you. I would
    think it would be higher do to the DH.
    
      Rockies pitchers get some help from the fans, but you have to
    remember that the rocks pitching is average.
    
      And finally, yes the thin air makes a difference.
    
      Tim

    
>    I don't disagree that the better stats at coors are do to physical
>    abilities, but I still say its also mental, ie, I can do this at home,
>    but on the road I can't and don't.  The Rocks are proving that this
>    year, hitting .223 on road.
    
    When Rockies' hitters put up dismal road stats yet at home accomplish 
    things like break the NL homefield HR record (1995), it points to one
    thing only: the ballpark and its atmosphere.  These are major-league 
    ballplayers, they are not that far subjected to the psychological 
    factors of travel.  Amazing coincidence that the greatest home-road 
    discrepancy in ML history just happened to come with the team that 
    plays their home games at 5000 feet.
    
    Like I said before, look out when the Rockies actually get a bunch of
    _good_ star hitters (ones that can hit above .250 on the road, etc.).
    
    glenn
     

    
>      I don't disagree that the better stats at coors are do to physical
>    abilities, but I still say its also mental, ie, I can do this at home,
>    but on the road I can't and don't.  The Rocks are proving that this
>    year, hitting .223 on road.
 
    That's not far different from what they hit on the road _last_ year.
    The problem is that the Rockies, who _don't_ have very good hitting,
    look like they're all set hitting-wise; meanwhile, the pitching, which
    is above average, is wrongly considered a problem area.
    
    Bill James once looked at the Red Sox history, and discovered that to
    be successful, they had to have league leading runs scored totals,
    and average runs allowed totals.  The Rockies go even further - leading
    the league in runs scored isn't enough.
    
>      Stadium makeup does effect stats, but that true anywhere. Look at the
>    pansy domes when balls are lost in the ceiling as an example.
 
    Yes it is; absolutely, no question about it.
    
    But nowhere in modern baseball as statistics as dramatically effected
    as Coors.  Hitting stats are increased by over 30%, which is three
    times the effect any other stadium has.
       
>      Why low run totals at Jacobs is happening, I can't tell you. I would
>    think it would be higher do to the DH.
 
    The DH has an effect on one league vs. the other; park effects are
    within leagues.
    
>      Rockies pitchers get some help from the fans, but you have to
>    remember that the rocks pitching is average.
 
    I'd call it above average (well, last year at least)...
    
    Joe   

    
    
    We''l here's another record for you guys. The Rockies will break a 
    record last set in 1929 with four men (Bichette, Galarraga, Burks and
    Castilla) with 100 rbi's. Castilla has 99 as of last night. The other
    three lead the league. 
    
    It appears they also have a chance at having three men with over 40 dingers
    Gallarraga hit number 39 last night, Burks has 36 and 34 for Castilla. 

>    We''l here's another record for you guys. The Rockies will break a 
>    record last set in 1929 with four men (Bichette, Galarraga, Burks and
>    Castilla) with 100 rbi's. Castilla has 99 as of last night. The other
>    three lead the league. 
 
    Apply triple asterisk (***)...
       
>    It appears they also have a chance at having three men with over 40 dingers
>    Gallarraga hit number 39 last night, Burks has 36 and 34 for Castilla. 

    Quadruple asterisk (****)...
    
    
    glenn
    
    

>Let's see the road numbers for these guys, times two...

Hell, I'd settle for:

	(Road #s) + ((Home #s + Road #s)/2)

since there are other parks that have some built-in advantages.

>>Let's see the road numbers for these guys, times two...
>
> Hell, I'd settle for:
>
>	(Road #s) + ((Home #s + Road #s)/2)
>
> since there are other parks that have some built-in advantages.
    
    Yeah, I know.  I'm curious as to just how mediocre those numbers
    are...
    
    glenn
     

    
    It could be worse. Larry Walker was out half the season. Burks has
    added his numbers to make for the loss of Walker.

  On the other end, you sort of have to wonder what keeps guys like Armando
Reynoso and Darren Holmes from bolting to some other team. No doubt the
damage that park has done to their numbers is as great as the benefit it's
given to the sluggers.

  George

      re-1
    
      The fans?  Maybe they have contracts to "fullfil"?
    
      Since '93, Armando has been the most consistant pitcher for the
    rocks.
    
      Tim

    >Since '93, Armando has been the most consistant pitcher for the rocks.
    
    Only because he is still pitching.  Some of the most consistant
    pitchers don't make it to the next season with their 7.00 o rhigher
    ERAs 8^)
    
    Marc
    

    
    The Rockies tied a 65 year old National record yesterday when Castilla
    hit his 35th dinger giving him 102 RBI's for the season. The record was
    tied in 29 by the Phillies and  Cubs after being set in 25 by the
    Pirates.

      Some team in '36 had 5 with over 100 rbi's.  Can't remember the team
    though.
    
      It would be nice to see Larry Walker get to 30 hr's before seasons
    end, but with 18 now, that may be pushing it.  He missed 60+ games this
    year. If he did get to 30, then that would be a record.
    
      I heard the rocks got spanked today.  They will be hitting the road,
    and if they don't win 40% of the remaining road games, they will be
    watching the 'offs.
    
      Tim

    
    	The way the Padres are playing, they better win 7 of 9 on this
    	road trip just to stay 5 back.......
    
    Claybone