Conference hbahba::cam_sports

>Though I'm a least-likely candidate, I'm starting up da boxing note.

Nonsense, JD, we all know that you are a Gossamer-weight division world
champ!


8^)

The International Boxing Hall of Fame selected the following folks for
induction this year (ceremony is June 13).

Modern Era:

Gabriel "Flash" Elorde, junior lightweight 88-25-2
Joey Giardello, middleweight, 100-25-7
Marvelous Marvin Hagler, middleweight, 62-3-2
Harold Johnson, light heavyweight, 76-11
Fritzie Zivic, welterweight, 155-65-10

Oldtimers (last bout no earlier than 1893, no later than 1942):

Les Darcy, welterweight, middleweight, and heavyweight, 45-4
Theordore "Tiger" Flowers, middleweight, 133-15-7
Tommy Gibbons, heavyweight, 57-4-1
Maxie Rosenbloom, light heavyweight, 223-42-32

Pioneers (Last bout before 1892):

Henry Pearce, retired undefeated, career from 1803-1806

Non-Participants:

Arthur Donovan, referee
James Jacobs, historian
Teddy Brenner, matchmaker
Gil Clancy, manager and trainer
Don Dunphy, commentator


Some info:  Habler, Giardello, Johnson, Brenner, Glancy and Dunphy are still
alive.  The rest are deceased.

Giardello held the world middleweight title from 1963-65
Johnson was light heavyweight champeen from 1961-63
Brenner was Madison Square Garden's long time matchmaker
Dunphy broadcast more than 2000 fights.

Flash Elrode was junior lightweight champeen in the 60's.

JD

    	Hagler in the Boxing Hall Of Fame?  SnideAir must be choking
    on his Perrier.
    
    				/Don

    
      A very solid case could be made for Marvin Hagler being the
     best middleweight *ever*.

Some of the fight totals are amazing for old time boxers.  

Marvelous, c'mon Tommy, we all *know* it was Vito Antefermo (spelling messed
up, I know).   ISFH.

JD

    JD, with your lats, you must have been an awesome fighter in your day.

    Nah,
    JD , being the high toned sumbitch that he is wif massive chest
    musculature, couldn't box cuz as we all know, being so muscle-bound,
    he couldn't swing them pythons around quick enough. Kinda resembled
    a mick Oscar Bonavena and woulda been susceptible to the jab, jab, jab
    and right cross.
    
    No suh, JD actually took up the mainly sport a_wrasslin where he was
    known as "Squire Johnny Darlin', the Besotted Irish Wonder". If his
    trademark bear hug didn't keel ya, his Jamieson's breath did. 
    Kinda looked like the Baron Von Raschke with green tights.
    
    HTH,
    MikeL
    

Well, no one has mentioned it so I will.

On Saturday night I watched Tommy Morrison TKO Carl "The Truth" Williams.

Morrison started out well, knocking The Truth down in rounds 1 and 3.
The Truth was told when he knocked down the Duke in round 5.

The announcers started to peg Morrison as the loser because the Truth
was starting to throw more and land more as the rounds got later, but
in the 8th Morrison landed a couple of good combinations, and The
Truth didn't know what day it was, so the ref stopped it.

Good fight.  Morrison may be one-dimensional, but he can punch, and
all a puncher has to do is land one good one.....


Forman took on Coetzer in the headline match.   Old George got the
TKO as he opened up a mess of Coetzer's face.   Not a great fight, but
what impressed me was how relaxed and laid back Foreman is in the ring.


Just thought you might like to know.....


'Saw

  >> Good fight.  Morrison may be one-dimensional, but he can punch, and
  >> all a puncher has to do is land one good one.....

     When Tommy first broke on the scene I loved him (if for no other 
     reason than his first name) and expected big things from him. Ten 
     fights later he hasn't improved. He's virtually the same fighter 
     he was when I first saw him with the same big left hook but also 
     with all of the same flaws. He still has no head movement, he still 
     throws one punch at a time and he still thinks a jab is a witty 
     comment. Supposedly, his next fight is going to be against George 
     Foreman. I hope Tommy rethinks this. George may be as slow and as 
     graceful as a pregnant Roseann Barr but he also has enough power 
     to end Morrison's career.
     
    

>     When Tommy first broke on the scene I loved him (if for no other 
>     reason than his first name) and expected big things from him. Ten 
>     fights later he hasn't improved. He's virtually the same fighter 
>     he was when I first saw him with the same big left hook but also 
>     with all of the same flaws. He still has no head movement, he still 
>     throws one punch at a time and he still thinks a jab is a witty 
>     comment. Supposedly, his next fight is going to be against George 
>     Foreman. I hope Tommy rethinks this. George may be as slow and as 
>     graceful as a pregnant Roseann Barr but he also has enough power 
>     to end Morrison's career.


He's never going to be a boxer, but I think that he did grow a lot
from this fight with Williams.

The fight started out much the same as his fight with Mercer, and he
could have fallen into the same bad habits.  But he seemed to overcome
that, get some stamina for the later rounds, and used a couple of
combinations to get Williams outta there.

He is an AWESOME puncher.....


I agree with you on Foreman -- another awesome puncher, and he is so
relaxed in the ring.   Plus, I love the guys style.....


'Saw     
    

     Well, I must admit that I didn't see the fight. I was at the
    Loading Zone to see Buddy Johnson and His Blues All-Stars feat-
    uring Weepin' Willie. Even so, I know Carl Williams and I know 
    Carl Williams is washed up. Carl never had much of a chin, (Tyson
    took him out before I could sit down) and he never had much power 
    but he managed to go eight rounds with Morrison and knock him down in
    the process. Tommy's on a road to nowhere. It's just a question 
    of where his final stop is going to be and what kind of payday
    awaits him. Foreman may actually be Morrison's best bet. It's the 
    fight he'll probably make the most money on and he won't take the 
    sustained beating that he would against Bowe, Lewis or Michael 
    Moorer. I just hope Tommy takes his lumps and his money and goes
    on to something else because he'll never be champ and it'd be a
    shame to see him reduced to an 'opponent'.
 
    Michael Moorer, btw, is the one I consider to be the most talented 
    heavyweight out there, but the problem is that *he's out there*. He's 
    a headcase. 
    

    

    Riddick Bows (sp) destroysSpinks...

    REK

    re:1
    
    that was dokes
    
    tony
    

	More like joke(s), as in the whole stinking farce was one.  While 
Bowe and Lewis pretend to dislike each other and make lots of money 
fighting "rank" contenders, Don King keeps looking for a way back in the 
heavyweight division and the new promoter on the block could "hammer" his 
way to the top.  Business as usual.  We will not see a Bowe/Lewis fight 
until at least 1994.

				/Don

/Don,

It's been a farce for years, why stop now?

I see Dershowitz will be pleading his case for Iron Mike today.

Godd luck....

daryll

    	I finally got to watch the Toney/Barkley fight that was on HBO
    Saturday night.  Toney really pounded Iran.
    
    				/Don

    Morrison wins by unanimous decision...
    

One of the guys on the radio said that Foreman looked like 

	"one of the stop-action monsters from the old Sinbad movies"




'Saw    

    
    
      The man who many (myself included) feel was the greatest middle-
     weight ever, Marvin Hagler, was inducted into the Boxing Hall Of
     Fame yesterday. 

    	Absolutely Tommy.  If he had been given a title shot around 1977
    instead of getting the run around Carlos Monzon's record would've
    fallen.  And if Marvin and Sugar (quit holding) Ray had fought in both
    their primes old Sweet&Low would be doing denture ads.  Hinsdale Race
    Track had a live boxing card last Monday to go along with the
    Foreman/Morrison simulcast.  It wasn't half bad and they plan on doing
    one again in August.
    
    				/Don

    Hear, hear. Well deserved for ol' Marvin.
    
    Will never forget his wanton destruction of Hearns. He was possessed.
    
    MikeL
    

    
      Yup, Hagler-Hearns was the best 8 minutes of fighting (not boxing)
     I've ever seen. I have it on tape and I've probably watched it over 
     a thousand times. Hagler's destruction of the (almost) indestructible 
     John "The Beast" Mugabi was another great one. I knew Mugabi was in
     serious trouble when Mickey Duff told Mugabi that he had to back Hagler
     up. Yeah, John and after you do that you can try and arm wrestle a
     gorilla. I was also lucky enough to have seen Marvin fight live at
     the Centrum back in about '83 against Tony Sibson. Of all the concerts
     and plays and sporting events I've been to, nothing even comes close to
     the excitement of that championship fight. The place was sold out with
     the fight being in Marvin's backyard but there was also a huge contingent
     over from Britain to support their boy Sibson. There must have been at
     least fifty fist fights in the stands. When the Brits started chanting 
     "Here we go" just as the fight was about to commence I could feel the 
     hairs on the back of my neck start to tingle. I'd been to the Exhibition 
     Hall at the Centrum to see Sibson train and he was banging that heavy 
     bag around like it was full of air not sand. He looked pretty fierce 
     and I thought Marvin might have his hands full. Hagler took him apart 
     like a cheap watch in six rounds. He tried to back Hagler up, too.

    
    
          Not too mention, Ive seen that Hagler Leonard fight about 5 times
    and I can't for the life of me see how any judge could have gave that
    fight to Leonard. He ran like a little girl all fight.
    
        wohhhhh /er in my stomping grounds now (hinsdale). They gots about
    1000 of my dollars that I lost to them in the last 10 years or so.
    
         But my family would tell me if I had a problem.   8-)
    
    Chappy

    	Hey Tommy I was at the Sibson fight too.  Remember the blizzard
    afterward?  Took us four hours to get home!  Hey Chappy you a Hinsdale
    Regular?  We're usually at the bar by the finish line every Saturday
    afternoon.  Stop by and give me some tips.
    
    				/Don

>     serious trouble when Mickey Duff told Mugabi that he had to back Hagler
>     up. Yeah, John and after you do that you can try and arm wrestle a
>     gorilla. 


Well, I don't know about arm-wrassling a gorilla, but I play rugby with
a guy who wrassled a bear once.

They had a thing at the Outdoor show at the Civic Center where you 
could wrassle this bear.  Well, all these folks were signing up, and losing,
and this guy I know (we'll call him Dennis) had signed up.  Well, he
was watching all these folks lose, and he came up with a strategy.

The bear's strategy was to bear-hug (what else?) the folks into
submission.   So when Dennis got up there, the first thing he heard
was all these students of his crying out "Hey, that's Mr. _________"
(he's a schoolteacher).

Well, he started to wrassle the bear -- every time the bear tried to
wrap him, he push the bear's "arms" backward and away, and then the
bear would lower his head, and then Dennis would head butt him.

Dennis was the only non-loser that day.  He actually drew with the bear.


Mac knows who I'm talking about (or I'm pretty sure he can guess at
any rate).....


'Saw

PS  Hagler probably would have knocked the bear out.....8^)

    Yeah, Slashman, I remember the blizzard. It took me about two hours
   or so to get home and I only live 12 miles away (Clinton). Most of the
   way down rte 110 I couldn't see more than a couple of yards out in front 
   of the car. I was following some tire tracks in the snow. If those tracks
   would've gone off of a cliff I would've gone right off with them. My
   brother and I didn't mind too much, though because the whole way home
   all we did was talk about what an amazing event we had just witnessed.  

    
    Ditto on Hagler. One of my all time faves. I like when he won the title
    against Alan Minter in England and the fans responded by pelting him
    with anything they could get thier hands on. He never got to hoist the
    belt over his head  after winning it.
    
    After living in Italy for the last 5 years or so I guess he talks like
    my cousins.
    
    -TH

      >> I like when he won the title against Alan Minter in England 
      >> and the fans responded by pelting him with anything they could 
      >> get thier hands on. He never got to hoist the belt over his head  
      >> after winning it.
    
        I'll never forget that. People ducked Marvin for so long and it 
        took him so long to get the title he beat Minter cleanly and the 
        fans responded like that. Really sad. Marvin said he'd never fight
        in Britain again after that.
     
        Worth noting is that including the Leonard fight, Marvin had three
        losses in 60+ fights and two of them were decisions to Philly
        fighters in Philly. Both of those losses were later avenged. The
        third loss was of course the controversial decision to Leonard in
        a fight that never should have taken place. In a more fair world
        Marvin would have retired undefeated.

Hagler's best move was to go to acting.

Overrated Boston Area Bias alert in full swing.

But then again, some folks think Ali's career was clean...

JD

    
         I thought you left in a huff. Again.

Naw Tommy, just away for a mini-vacation...

JD

> Overrated Boston Area Bias alert in full swing.
    
    Yes, I really do believe that Marvin wouldn't have beaten a legend like
    Carlos Monzon, among others.  I keep hearing these apologies for Marvin
    for his performance when he had the chance to cement his place in
    history with a demolition of Leonard (which is what most expected), but
    the fact is that the *heavy underdog* and likewise past-his-prime
    Leonard, coming off a two-year retirement no less, frustrated the hell 
    out of Hagler with flurries that he just couldn't cope with.  Leonard
    may have run excessively but the simple fact is he made Marvin look
    bad.
    
    glenn
    
    glenn
    

      >> Yes, I really do believe that Marvin wouldn't have beaten 
      >> a legend like Carlos Monzon, among others.  
    
         Marvin would have rendered Monzon comatose. Nobody but nobody
        could go flat-footed with Hagler and that was Monzon's style.
        Marvin took Tommy Hearn's best shots and Hearns was the great-
        est one-punch knockout artist of my generation. He took John "The
        Beast" Mugabi apart when Mugabi was 25-0 with 25 knockouts. He
        beat Roberto Duran when Marvin wasn't even at his best. And he did 
        it all with the worst corner in boxing. You can't judge Joe Louis 
        by the Marciano fight or Ali by the Holmes fight. Don't judge Marvin 
        by the Leonard fight.

                                       
      >  Marvin would have rendered Monzon comatose. Nobody but nobody
      >  could go flat-footed with Hagler and that was Monzon's style.
      >  Marvin took Tommy Hearn's best shots and Hearns was the great-
      >  est one-punch knockout artist of my generation. He took John "The
      >  Beast" Mugabi apart when Mugabi was 25-0 with 25 knockouts. He
      >  beat Roberto Duran when Marvin wasn't even at his best.
    
    Well, Duran fought in that flat-footed style and he was a natural
    welterweight fighting above his weight class and past his prime, and
    while it was a good fight for Hagler, Duran more than held his own 
    and Marvin didn't put him out.  Hearns was a huge hitter with a huge
    heart but a very imperfect boxer with his infamous glass jaw.  Mugabi
    doesn't even merit mention as a serious boxer with championship
    credentials, in spite of the hype that surrounded him for about a year
    or so.  And other marginal bums with no quickness like Vito Antuofermo
    were not "rendered unconscious" by Marvin.
    
    Even judging him at his best, against the top competition (which wasn't
    that long), Hagler as the greatest middleweight of all time?  Better 
    than Sugar Ray Robinson?  Better than Monzon?  C'mon...
    
    glenn
    

     >> -< Like you said, don't listen to the Petronelli brothers >-

        Who's listening to the Petronelli brothers? I'm quite capable
        of forming my own opinions. Thank you very much.
    
     >> Well, Duran fought in that flat-footed style and he was a natural
     >> welterweight fighting above his weight class and past his prime, and
     >> while it was a good fight for Hagler, Duran more than held his own 
     >> and Marvin didn't put him out.  

        I always thought Hagler gave him too much respect in that fight
        and was too tentative. He should have kicked Duran's ass easily
        but Duran didn't get his rep for nothing. I think he psyched Marvin
        but he didn't really want to fight with him.
    
     >> Hearns was a huge hitter with a huge heart but a very imperfect 
     >> boxer with his infamous glass jaw.  

        ...who knocked Duran out in two and came within one round of stupidity
        of beating Leonard in their first fight.

     >> Mugabi doesn't even merit mention as a serious boxer with championship
     >> credentials, in spite of the hype that surrounded him for about a year
     >> or so.  

        Because? Because saying so fits your stance? Or because he was never 
        the same after Hagler crushed him? Nobody could have taken the shots 
        that Mugabi laid on Hagler but Marvin. Nobody.

     >> And other marginal bums with no quickness like Vito Antuofermo
     >> were not "rendered unconscious" by Marvin.
    
        Vito was a cement-head out of the Jake Lamotta mold. You couldn't 
        knock him out with a sledgehammer.

      >> Even judging him at his best, against the top competition (which 
      >> wasn't that long), 

         Which was well after he turned thirty.

      >> Hagler as the greatest middleweight of all time?  Better than Sugar 
      >> Ray Robinson?  Better than Monzon?  C'mon...
    
         It's purely subjective. But Robinson wasn't a true middleweight he 
         was a welter who fought all of his best fights as a welter and who
         lost twice to Jake Lamotta a fighter with a similar style to Hagler. 
         And I've seen tapes of Monzon. He was made for Hagler.
    
    

    	Can't say Marvin would've beaten the "real" Sugar Ray, but he
    would've taken Monzon apart.  Marvin wasn't the most improvisational in
    the ring, but he could learn from his mistakes.  The only reason Rim
    consented to step into the ring with Hagler (besides the moolah), was
    because he saw that Mugabi had actually hurt Marvin.  When Hagler was
    at his best all Sweet&Low could do was say "It would be a great fight,
    but it can never happen".
    
    				/Don

    
     >> -< Like you said, don't listen to the Petronelli brothers >-

    >    Who's listening to the Petronelli brothers? I'm quite capable
    >    of forming my own opinions. Thank you very much.
    
    Wasn't implying that you aren't.  Was implying that just about the only
    boxing circles where I've heard this "Hagler greatest middleweight of
    all time" talk has come from the Petronellis and maybe Bob Arum, hardly
    your detached observers.  But I could be wrong about this; maybe other
    nationally-based boxing afficionados also hold this opinion...
    
    glenn
    

      >> Wasimplying that just about the only boxing circles where 
      >> I've heard this "Hagler greatest middleweight of all time" 
      >> talk has come from the Petronellis and maybe Bob Arum, hardly
      >> your detached observers.  But I could be wrong about this; maybe 
      >> other nationally-based boxing afficionados also hold this opinion...
    
         When Marvin retired, Ron Borges of the Globe had an article on 
         how and why Marvin just may be considered the greatest middleweight
         ever. Borges may or may not be biased. I *know* I am. But nobody
         disputes the fact that Marvin belongs ranked with the all-time
         greats. The old-timers acknowledge it. The so-called experts too.
         And one ugly fight against Leonard cannot diminish that fact.

	Tom DesRochers
	dtn 223-8925
	uspmlo::desrochers

	Boxing - Major Fights Magazines
	   o best reasonable offer
	   o all in perfect condition
	   o will include cardboard mounted newspaper clippings of 
	     the following fights;
		- Foreman vs Frazier I
		- Ali vs Foreman
		- Ali vs Frazier II
		- Frazier vs Quarry

	Muhammad Ali
	============
	Sports Illustrated	One Tough Cookie for Ali	27-Sep-76
	   - Cover issue Norton vs Ali before the fight

	Boxing Illustrated	Ali vs Norton Special Issue	Oct-76
	   - Cover issue of Ali after loss to Leon Spinks

	Time Magazine		The Greatest is Gone		27-Feb-78
	   - Cover issue of Ali after loss to Leon Spinks

	Sports Illustrated	The Champ Again			25-Sep-78
	   - Cover issue of Ali vs Spinks after 2nd fight

	Sports Illustrated	Pride of the Lions		22-Nov-80
	   - Preview of Ali vs Holmes

	Sports Illustrated	Ali				29-Sep-80
	   - Cover issue of Ali vs Holmes before the fight

	Sports Illustrated	The Last Hurrah			13-Oct-80
	   - Cover issue of Ali vs Holmes after the fight

	Inside Sports		It's been a ball with Ali	30-Nov-80
	   - Cover issue of Ali after Holmes

	Duran vs Leonard
	================
	Sports Illustrated	Boxing's Big Week		02-Jul-79
	   - Cover issue of Duran vs Palomino after the fight
	   - Holmes beats Mike Weaver
	   - Gerrie Coetzee floors Leon Spinks 3 times in 1st round

	Official Program	The Montreal Showdown		20-Jun-80

	Sports Illustrated	No Way Sugar Ray		16-Jun-80
	   - Cover issue of Duran before the 1st fight

	Sports Illustrated	The Brawl in Montreal		30-Jun-80
	   - Cover issue after the 1st fight
	   - 2 copies

	Inside Sports		Fast Hands vs Stone Hands	30-Jun-80
	   - Cover issue of Duran vs Leonard before the 1st fight

	International Boxing	Duran vs Leonard		Aug-80
	   - Cover issue with additional articles about Salvador Sanchez
	     and Mike Weaver as champions

	The Ring		Ali on Cover			Jun-80
	   - Preview of Duran vs Leonard

	The Ring		Official Program		Jul-80
	   - Cover issue preview of Duran vs Leonard

	Inside Sports		Sweet Roberto Duran		31-Aug-80
	   - How Duran beat Leonard

	Official Program	Once Again			25-Nov-80

	Sports Illustrated	It Will Be a War		24-Nov-80
	   - Cover issue of Leonard before the 2nd fight

	Sports Illustrated	Ram Power			08-Dec-80
	   - Duran blames Stomach cramps in loss

	Roberto Duran
	=============
	Sports Illustrated	Redemtion for Roberto		27-Jun-83
	   - Cover issue after beating Davey Moore

	The Ring		One Mas Time			Aug-83
	   - Cover issue after beating Davey Moore

	Fight Game		Duran				Nov-83
	   - Cover issue after beating Davey Moore
	   - Holmes vs Marvis Frazier
	   - Curry Brothers, Mayweather, Jeff Chandler

	The Ring		Hagler vs Duran program		Oct-83
	   - Cover issue before fight

	Inside Sports		Marvin Hagler			Oct-83
	   - Hagler just before Duran fight

	KO Annual		Hagler vs Duran program		1983
	   - Cover issue before fight

	Boxing Scene		Duran vs Hagler			1983
	   - Collectors Edition

	Sports Illustrated	Toughing it Out			21-Nov-83
	   - Cover Issue after Hagler fight

	Miscellaneous
	=============
	The Ring		Leonard and Sanchez		Mar-82
	   - Cover Issue of Leonard and Salvador Sanchez
	     as Fighters of the Year

	KO Magazine		The Man, the Champ, The Superstar  Jul-83
	   - Marvin Hagler

	Sports Illustrated	GUILTY				17-Feb-92
	   - Tyson guilty of rape

	Fight Game		Cooney vs Norton

    Ray Mercer has been arrested for offering Jesse Ferguson
    $100,000 to take a dive in their fight.  Mercer lost the
    fight, and a title shot a Bowe.
    
    Mike

   Apparently, Ray has made it his life's work to keep re--defining the
  word "loser".

   In other news: USA network will have a lenghty profile of Marvin Hagler,
  focusing largely on his anonymous days, during tonight's telecast.

    
    Thanks for the note on Hagler. One of my Fav's. Whats up with Mercer ?
    

    	...and remember before you plunk down $30.00 to watch
    Lewis/Morrison, this is the same Mercer who absolutely destroyed
    DukeJr.
    
    				/Don

    >> Whats up with Mercer ?
    
       During his fight with Jesse Ferguson when it became apparent to
       Ray that he was on the verge of losing both the fight and a title
       shot against Bowe, Ray *allegedly* offered Ferguson $100,000 to 
       take a dive. The film footage I saw showed the two jawing in the 
       clinches and Ferguson really has no reason to lie, so...    
   

    
    I knew about the alledged plot but can he really be that stupid. He
    deserves what he gets  now.

    TH, I'd guess that "experts" must have reviewed the footage, both
    participants were questioned as well as people at ringside and the
    Grand jury (or whoever) felt there was enough evidence to proceed.
    So, let's see - Ray loses to a 36 year old man, he loses his title
    shot in the process, he gets indicted for trying to fix the fight 
    that he ended up losing and his boxing career is over. Cheer up, Ray.
    Things could always be worse. Don't ask me how.

    >> ...and remember before you plunk down $30.00 to watch
    >> Lewis/Morrison, this is the same Mercer who absolutely destroyed
    >> DukeJr.
    
       But it isn't the same Tommy Morrison. I don't think he'll beat 
       Lewis, who I'm not all that impressed with (at least not yet), but
       Morrison's a better fighter now than he was when he fought Mercer.
       Even still, the only fight on the horizon that I'd plunk down $30
       for is Whittaker-Chavez which should be one hell of a fight.

I can't imagine how this could be taken as a serious comment. Remember folks
this is close to the most corrupt sporting event known nexted to ProWrasslin. 

It's called talkin trash in the NBA. Should that be illegal. I can see it now 
Charles Barkley was banned from the NBA for talking to Mike Jordan during game
4 accusing Mike of betting that he could tie a NBA record for most points 
scored in a Championship game. 


Who really cares. 

Marlon Brando in On The Waterfront

"I coulda been a contender"

The Crazy Met

    
    >> I can't imagine how this could be taken as a serious comment. 
    
       I can. Obviously, whoever indicted Mercer can, too.
    
    >> Remember folks this is close to the most corrupt sporting event known 
    >> nexted to ProWrasslin. 

       You think ProWrasslin is a "sporting event"? It's precisely because
       of boxing's rep that they can't let this slide.
     
    >> It's called talkin trash in the NBA. Should that be illegal. I can see 
    >> it now Charles Barkley was banned from the NBA for talking to Mike 
    >> Jordan during game 4 accusing Mike of betting that he could tie a NBA 
    >> record for most points scored in a Championship game. 

       There's a difference between talking trash and offering someone
       dough to take a dive. Do you think if Chaz offered Mike a million
       bucks to fake an injury in game six that the NBA would have laughed
       it off. I don't think so.
    

   >> Who really cares. 
    
      I think Ray is being punished enough just being Ray but what he did
      besides being monumentally stupid is damaging to a sport that does
      enough damage to itself so I care.
    

  >> Marlon Brando in On The Waterfront

  >> "I coulda been a contender"
    
     My favorite movie of all-time. 
    
     "I coulda been somebody. I coulda been a contendah. Instead of a bum
      which is what I am - let's face it. It was you Charlie. Remember that 
      night in the Gahaden you came down to my dressing room and you said,
      'Kid, it's not your night we're going for the price on Wilson.' Not
      my night? I coulda taken Wilson apart. So what happens? He gets a 
      title shot outdoors in the ball park and I get a one way ticket to
      Palookaville."
      

|     My favorite movie of all-time. 
|    
|     "I coulda been somebody. I coulda been a contendah. Instead of a bum
|      which is what I am - let's face it. It was you Charlie. Remember that 
|      night in the Gahaden you came down to my dressing room and you said,
|      'Kid, it's not your night we're going for the price on Wilson.' Not
|      my night? I coulda taken Wilson apart. So what happens? He gets a 
|      title shot outdoors in the ball park and I get a one way ticket to
|      Palookaville."


Classic stuff.... absolutely classic.      

    
     'Saw,  just going from memory so, I don't think it's 100% accurate but
     you get the jist of it.

thanks Tommy. Even if its not 100% it sounds real authentic.

The Crazy Met

I can. Obviously, whoever indicted Mercer can, too.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Who was that Don King or maybe the New Jersey State Boxing Commision both are
fine and reputable people. 

       Do you think if Chaz offered Mike a million
       bucks to fake an injury in game six that the NBA would have laughed
       it off. I don't think so.

I do,  cause in both cases the other party won the battle. Without any money 
changing hands. 

  re .TCM

  It's probably pretty close. Like I said that is my favorite all-time movie
  and I've probably seen it about 47 times. I finally got to see it on the
  big screen last year at the Brattle Theater. Marlon Brando, Eve Marie Saint,
  Karl Malden, Lee J. Cobb, Rod Steiger... What a cast. What a movie. 

    	Does Vinny Pazz get Macho Man Randy Savage's hand-me-downs or what?

re: .55

For Brutus is an honorable man.

re: .57

Eva Marie Saint - quite a babe in those days. Pretty good in North by Northwest
as well. She occasionally pops up in a made for TV movie these days.

The Crazy Met

    
>>For Brutus is an honorable man.
    
    How the hail cain you say this??  It's utter Bullsh_t and you know it!!
    
    
    Brutus always used the lowest most dirty tricks to try and get rid of
    Popeye so's he could have that babe of babes, Olive Oil, all to
    hisself.
    
    JaKe
    

JaKe your ignorance is showing.

In his eulogy for Julius Caesar (at least the one that Shakespeare wrote)
Mark Antony uses the phrase "For Brutus is an honorable man" a number of times.
It is used in a very sarcastic manner and of course means that Brutus is
a real lout.

Shakespeare uses this literary trick quite a bit. My favorite is
Hamlet telling Ophelia "get thee to a nunnery"

The Crazy Met

    
>>JaKe your ignorance is showing.

    No it ain't TCM, the wife put a new zipper in these pants a day or two
    ago, so I cured that problem.
    
>>In his eulogy for Julius Caesar (at least the one that Shakespeare wrote)
>>Mark Antony uses the phrase "For Brutus is an honorable man" a number of times.
       ^^^^^^
    
    Now, how cain anything credible be attributed to a guy who misspells
    "Anthony"??????
    
    Shakespeare was a *W*U*S*S* from that Island over there between the
    Atlantic Ocean, the North Sea, and the English Channel, which by the
    way, is not on my cable system.
    
    JaKe
    
    

�Hamlet telling Ophelia "get thee to a nunnery"

	Hamlet was a Phoenix Nuns� fan too?

				/Don

I'll check it out, but I believe it was Mark Antony in Shakespeare.

The Crazy Met

    Is "Shakespeare" where the term "backstabber" originated?????
    
    And, why did a guy who made fishing gear decide to write plays???
    
    Inquiring mindless and all that CRAP
    
    JaKe
    

    Take it to the Junk Note or I will (and you know how testy 'Saw gets
    when I mess up his unseen maps).

    Well maybe with 'Saw as the host moderator for this conference other
    mods would be more inclined to listen to him, huh MtM ??
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    Tonight on ESPN at 10:00 (EDT) Woostah local <mumble> Fitzgerald fights
    Roberto Duran.  Duran's 42 years old and <mumble> is something like 23
    or 28 years old.
    
    If <mumble> wins, he thinks he'll break into the top 15 in rankings and
    make some serious $$$ in his nexted fight.
    
    I remain,
    Kev_for_Da_Bibe :^(
    
    

When does Vinny Paz fight again?  Sometime soon, right?


'Saw

  It's Sean Fitzgerald and if he beats Duran it means somewhere down the
 road he'll get to have his butt kicked by either Roy Jones or Reggie 
 Johnson or Terry Norris or someone else in what is, right now, the most
 talent-laden division in boxing.

  Vinny Paz will fight Duran if Roberto wins. If Roberto "Manos De Arthritis"
 Duran should happen to lose then Vinny will probably fight the least threat-
 ening fighter who represents the biggest payday. Like I said the middles and 
 super-middles are the best division in boxing. If Vinny really wanted a fight...

>  Vinny Paz will fight Duran if Roberto wins. If Roberto "Manos De Arthritis"
> Duran should happen to lose then Vinny will probably fight the least threat-
> ening fighter who represents the biggest payday. Like I said the middles and 
> super-middles are the best division in boxing. If Vinny really wanted a fight...


I was just curious, because Denny was telling me he saw him sporting a 
"Foxwoods Casino" jacket not long ago, and I thought he had a fight coming
up soon....

Middles are far more interesting than the heavyweights these days....


Now, if I could just get the lowdown on who's doing what in Roller Derby....



'Saw

    Ya all can sit back from the edge of yer seat now.  Here's
    the poop.
    
    6th round KO by Roberto Duran.  Fitzgerald tried to "out quick" the ol
    man in the early rounds but the ol man just kept hammering away.  The
    kid has had only 2 fights going longer than 6 rounds and Duran said he
    knew that the kid would tire out so he went for the body alot (to
    effect his ability to breathe).  Late in the 6th round the kid was on
    the ropes and Roberto (who was in close) and the kid were exchanging
    body punches when Roberto opened up with a fast fury to da face. 
    Fitzgeral dropped his arms and WHAM - POW - Ratta tat.  4 or 5 quickies
    to the head and Fitzgeral went down.
    
    There's a scary guy in the heavyweight division who is up and coming -
    one Jorge Luis Gonzales.  Apparently he's a defected-Cuban who was the
    Pan-Am champ.  He happens to be 6'6", 230 pounds and has a 84"
    wingspan!  
    
    From what I saw (during the 2 rounds he fought), the guy's a real
    slugger.
    
    I remain,
    Kev_for_Dennis  :*(
    

R.I.P Bibe.....



>    6th round KO by Roberto Duran.  Fitzgerald tried to "out quick" the ol
>    man in the early rounds but the ol man just kept hammering away.  The
>    kid has had only 2 fights going longer than 6 rounds and Duran said he
>    knew that the kid would tire out so he went for the body alot (to
>    effect his ability to breathe).  Late in the 6th round the kid was on
>    the ropes and Roberto (who was in close) and the kid were exchanging
>    body punches when Roberto opened up with a fast fury to da face. 
>    Fitzgeral dropped his arms and WHAM - POW - Ratta tat.  4 or 5 quickies
>    to the head and Fitzgeral went down.

Mas...Mas...Mas....

I'd have like to have seen this fight.  Sounds lots more interesting
than Foreman-Morrison was.

    
>    There's a scary guy in the heavyweight division who is up and coming -
>    one Jorge Luis Gonzales.  Apparently he's a defected-Cuban who was the
>    Pan-Am champ.  He happens to be 6'6", 230 pounds and has a 84"
>    wingspan!  

Sounds like a candidate for Marfan's Syndrome 8^)

    
    

'Saw

    I guess Fitzgerald will have to update the message on his answering
    machine.  It answered calls by saying you have reached _______
    Fitzgerald, the man who will retire Roberto Duran.

Here's a suggestion:


    You have reached _________ Fitzgerald:  No mas, No mas, No mas......

I caught this, uh, spectacle lasted night. Duran looked better than he
has in the recent past. Fitzgerald shoulda stuck to boxing and shoulda
never pissed Duran off. 

But the undercard fight with Gonzalez was the high light of the event. In
the second round of a heavyweight bout, just as the opponent was sticking
his head in, Gonzalez landed up the side of the head. The other guy
proceded to go down on his back and started quivering, doing a very good
imitation of a turtle on its back. I mean the guy had both arms and both
legs up and flapping around like his nervous system had totally shorted
out. The scary part is that the punch didn't completely land. If Gonzalez
had hit the guy square, the buy would still be out.

TTom

    > Sounds like a candidate for Marfans Syndrome
    
    Better make sure his hotel doors are nnot locked at night..

    	Anybody heading up to see the live card at Hinsdale tonight?  I'll
    be there around 7:00.
    
    				/Don

We're supposed to take this sport seriously after lasted night?

daryll

   I didn't watch it last night. From what I've read in the BOXING 
  notesfile, Tomashek was a last minute fill in for Mike Williams
  who refused to take a pre-fight drug test. Almost invariably when
  ever a fighter fills in at the last minute you can be sure that
  a) he has little or no other options and isn't in top condition
  because he wasn't expecting a fight and b) the other corner isn't
  going to bring in someone with a realistic chance of winning and 
  throw their fighter in with someone dangerous who their fighter 
  hasn't trained for. It'll be a lot easier to take this sport ser-
  iously next week when the two best fighters in the world pound for
  pound go it in the person of JC Chavez and Pernell Whitaker. 

	Edwin Santana was worth the trip up to Hinsdale (than and the fack 
that I walked out with some of the track's money).  The kid is real good 
and I would be surprised if he doesn't make it to at least contender status 
within the year.  Sad to say but the dark side reared it's ugly haid again 
lasted night.  Jason Fiske (a New Hampshire white hope type) fought Gennaro 
Andujar in a Junior Welterweight fight.  In the third round Andujar rocked 
Fiske and had him on his knees.  Andujar backed off for an instant, but the 
referee was staring off into space (probably looking at the ring card girls),
so Andujar stepped up and hit Fiske in the jaw snapping his neck back.  
Fiske crumbled to the canvas and the crowd (most of whom would have trouble 
with the WWF rules) started to pelt Andujar with anything available.  A few 
of us knew who really caused it though, but when the referee disqualified 
Andujar the crowd acted like he was some kind of a hero.  The only thing that 
moved on Fiske was his eyes and he was taken off in an ambulance, and the 
kid Andujar needed a police escort to get from the ring.  Hopefully when 
they review the tapes the New Hampshire Boxing Commission will do the right 
thing by making Andujar the winner and banning that bozo ref for life.

				/Don

  >> Julio Cesar Chavez	5:2	Parnell Whitaker

      This fight is going to be a lot closer than these odds would seem
     to indicate. In fact, although I think it's too close to call, if
     someone put a gun against my head and forced me to make a bet (could
     happen!) I'd bet Whittaker. Chavez starts too slow and he's a plodder.
     If he gets behind to Whittaker he may never catch up. On the other 
     hand the crowd will favor Chavez heavily and Chavez has those two 
     hammers. When JC hits people; they hurt. It'll all be a matter of
     who dictates the pace and whether Whittaker will make the same mis-
     takes Meldrick Taylor did and I don't think he will. The slickest and
     quickest against the new and improved version of Los Manos De Piedras.
     It's gonna be a humdinger.

    =Bob=
    
    Can you please explain what the following means? Thank you.
    
    > When JC hits people; they hurt. 
                         ^ ??
    
    The Crazy Met
    

>    Can you please explain what the following means? Thank you.
>    
>    > When JC hits people; they hurt. 
>                         ^ ??
    
It indicates a pregnant pause.

As in

	"When JC hits people [insert pregnant pause to think long and
	 hard about the punching power of Chavez] they hurt



hth,
'Saw    

Now that Duran has fought, any word on when Pazienza fights again???


'Saw

  Paz' people are in negotiations with Buddy McGirt's people for a December
 bout. The Paz-Duran fight went out the window because nobody would pay
 for it, so Vinny's gonna have to actually fight a live body this time and
 will probably end up getting his butt kicked and retiring after this one.
 McGirt put on a good show against Whitaker despite being injured and can 
 box circles around Vinny. Vinny's head will be snapping back and forth like 
 his neck was made of rubber.
  

>    > When JC hits people; they hurt. 

I thought it meant that JC has had intestinal surgery, and, like Ronald Regan, 
only has a semi-colon.

HTH

=Bob=

    
    
    This is one fight that I almost broke down and spent the 29.95 for. 
    I'm torn between one of the best fights to come around since
    Hagler/Hearns, and my non support of PPV. Ugg. Won't spend the dinero, 
    and I have to go with JCC by a K.O. after being behind on points. 

McGirt is tough, I'll say that.....

> (I even debated putting in a smiley face here just for you)
    
    That's so sweet, Tommy.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

   Despite the fact that the best fighter he had beaten, Meldrick
  Taylor was just a good fighter and until the fight was stopped
  Taylor was leading and had beaten Chavez to every punch all night
  long. Despite the fact that of his 87 victories no more than twenty 
  came against fighters that anyone outside of Mexican boxing circles 
  had ever heard of. Despite the fact that the lightweight and junior
  welterweight ranks hold less talent than a roomful of Star Search 
  rejects. Despite all of that, everyone was ready to rank JC Chavez
  as one of the all-time greats. He's a good fighter maybe even a
  great one but Pernell Whitaker showed it's he who deserves to be
  ranked with the all-timers not Chavez. If you watched the Chavez-Taylor 
  fight you saw in Chavez a devastating body puncher but also a guy with
  limited speed and defensive skills. Unlike Tyson, who in his Kevin
  Rooney days, was not only a human wrecking ball but a well skilled
  defensive fighter, Chavez doesn't do a lot of things well defensively.
  He comes straight forward, doesn't use a lot of head movement and let's
  his sense of machismo get the best of him. If he fought Whitaker a hundred
  times he'd lose everytime. At any weight. He couldn't hit Whitaker with
  a solid punch unless someone held Whitaker for him. I thought this fight
  would be a lot closer (see note 67.81) but I also thought Whitaker would
  win because he was the better skilled fighter and he did win. Handily.
  Despite the scorecards of the judges and Chavez knows that in his heart.
  Unfortunately for Whitaker, the only fight out there for him is a Terry
  Norris fight that he's too small to win. A Chavez rematch might make him
  some money but it's doubtful that he can get motivated to box Julio's
  ears off again. It's just too bad that Sweet Pea didn't leave San Antonio
  with the 'W' that he deserved.

I came very close to ordering this fight at the last minute, but the 
$34.95 price tag was just too steep.

Now in a way I wish I had.   The article in the paper was not very informative
but to say it was a controversial decision I suppose would be an
understatement.


From some of the interest in this note, we ought to think about getting
together at Foxwoods the next time they have a fight down there.....


'Saw

Am I the only one who didn't think of this immediatly?:

They were saying on the radio that the only reason that the fight was called a
draw was because Chavez is in Don King's pocket.

Shocked me.  Duh...

=Bob=

>Am I the only one who didn't think of this immediatly?:
>
>They were saying on the radio that the only reason that the fight was called a
>draw was because Chavez is in Don King's pocket.
>
>Shocked me.  Duh...


Bob, 

Those are heavy accusations.  I mean, seriously, how could anyone think
that Don "I'm Having a Bad Hair Day" King could have influence over impartial
judges.

I don't know.  If it's true, boxing is no better than the WWF......

Shocked also,
'Saw

    I figured it was to set up the rematch...
    

 I figured it was because there were 60,000 Chavez fans in the stands and
 the judges wanted to get out of there with their heads still firmly attached
 to their shoulders. 

    Well lets see. The 2 European judges are official of the WBC. Don King
    is real tight with the President of the WBC. All the expenses of the
    judges were covered by King - first class airfare, etc. If they did not
    go with the "house" fighter they would have to wait a while to get
    another match to judge. Nahh that had no influence on the decision.
    
    Kicker is King and the WBC tried to get the American judge, who was
    appointed by the Texas Boxing Commission and substitute a Mexican judge
    instead. 
    
    The Crazy Met
    

  If you want to take that a little further, CraZe, the WBC itself is based
 in Mexico. I was worried that Whittaker might get screwed if there was a
 decision and he did. The WBC jobbed him when he fought Luis Ramirez and 
 Pernell got his only loss. I tend to doubt Whittaker will be fighting any
 WBC sanctioned fights in the very near future.

    I cain't believe anyone in here would ever doubt the integrity of
    boxing in general and Don King in particular?!?!?!?!?!  Just because
    the WBC appointed the judges, and King owns the WBC, is no reason
    to believe the judges would be anything less than professional in
    their judging of the fight.  Even though I watched most of the fight,
    I'm sure my eyes deceived me when I felt that Chavez won only a couple
    of rounds.  Just because Whitaker landed 100 more punches doesn't mean
    that he was the better fighter, obviously.  There must be a certain
    subtlety to watching a WBC fight that is beyond someone like me.
    
    NAZZ

    It may sound sad, or may sound funny... but that's what people do for
    money...
    

>    Had another wild weekend, Mike?    
    
    every weekend is wild.

    So, even though boxing ain't a sport, just barbarism mascarading as a
    sport, who won this useless display of fisticuffs????
    
    (8^0
    
    JaKe
    

    
    
      I heard on Sportscenter last night that one of the judges the WBC got
    (I think he was from England Its still early) had deducted a point from
    Sweet Pea in the 6th for a low blow.  The problem is the ref did not
    issue a warning first so he cannot do that.  Stiener went on to say
    that Duva is appealing and trying to get that point back giving Sweet
    Pea the split decision I quess.  Lets be real though, with all the
    money that Don King stands to make on a rematch what are the chances of
    him letting that that scorecard get adjusted??
    
    Jerry

�    So, even though boxing ain't a sport, just barbarism mascarading as a
�    sport, who won this useless display of fisticuffs????
    
    Nobody, the fight was declared a draw.

    a majority draw to use the exact term. 2 judges scored the match a tie,
    one - the non WBC judge - had Whitaker as the winner.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    	I disagree with Tommy Brydie's assessment of Chavez's career, but
    Whitaker won the fight on Friday night.  Chavez is only 31 (maybe) but
    he's been fighting for a long time and maybe is past his prime.  I
    would love to see a Norris/Whitaker fight, but it will probably never
    happen.
    
    				/Don

   >> I would love to see a Norris/Whitaker fight, but it will probably 
   >> never happen.
      
      I hope for Whitaker's sake it doesn't. Whitaker isn't a welterweight
      much less a superwelter. If he takes Norris on, he'll get creamed.
     
      As for all the Chavez excuse-making, the man has trouble with slick
      boxers. He was losing to Taylor who is not nearly the boxer that
      Whittaker is. Give Chavez someone who is right there for him and
      he'll destroy 'em. A quicker, slicker fighter like Pernell will
      whup Chavez every time. He's lucky he didn't fight Whittaker when
      he was younger or he never would have had a prime.

    So if you bet the fight was it a push?  Or did books pay whitaker.
    
    btw - the appeal is to the texas boxing commission which doesn't
    directly have to listin to donk.  I don't know what effect a texas
    boxing commission decision has on wbc.  It may have to do with wbc
    sanctioning a future bout in texas if they ignore commission decision.
    
    It seems like norris - chavez is the fight - what is the ideal weights
    of both?
    

In the ilk of the rough man contest, boxing is going to stage a last man
standing format for a million bucks.

The "Superfights" is a one night tournament of 16 boxers. To win you have
to beat 4 opponents. Eash win is worth 20K with the finals giving 940K to
the winner and 40K to the loser. First round knock outs are worth 20K.

Tony Tubbs, Bonecrusher Smith and Michael Dokes have supposedly signed
up. Tyyrell Biggs, Henry Tillman and Bert Cooper were among others
mentioned. 

TTom

    
    What total rubbish, I wonder if Don is behind it and it will be
    sanctioned by the WBC ?

    
    Yabbut squirrelled away somewhere else is the question of catfish
    baiting and as I envisioned my arm being swallered by one of those
    babies, it brought back a memory of when I met Floyd Patterson.
    T'was back in sophomore year of high school ('66).  My homeroom teacher,
    a guy named Brother Aquinas Richard (we called him BAR behind his back)
    was really active after school in trying to keep NYC yoots from getting
    into trouble.  Some of the things he did was try to get famous people
    to talk to dese yoots.  He was really persistent in getting these
    people too!
    
    One day we're all in da homeroom and this big guy in a suit knocks on
    da door.  BAR got up from da chair and opened up the door and in
    strolled his buddy Floyd Patterson!  WE were in awe!!!!  Like WOW!!!!
    
    Anyway, we got a chance to shake hands with Floyd.  That guy had hands
    about the size of Rhode Island and when I stuck my hand out to shake
    his, my po' po' hand was totally swallowed up and totally disappeared.
    Thankfully, he was kind and didn't squeeze to hard so I didn't get any
    broken bones.
    
    Proportionaltely speaking, it was just like me "shaking" hands with a 6
    month old baby.
    
    I remain,
    looking forward to my 25th class reunion thisted November!
    Kev
    

    Don King has actually come out with a decent idea for a change, imho. 
    He wants the boxing arena to have electronic scoreboards.  Judges tally
    scores and post them for all to see after each round.  

  >  Don King has actually come out with a decent idea for a change, imho.    
    
    King didn't "come up" with it.  It's been talked about for years.  King
    is trying to shift the focus of his latest mess, that's all.
    
    brews

I think this is a_idea whose time has come. Supposedly, the judges write
down their scores at the end of each round. Why not just put them up
where everyone can see. One thing for sure, the fighters would know where
they stand and you're liable to see some helacious last rounds.

Of course, this doesn't preclude buying the judges. Instead of fixing it
at one point, the end of the fight, they'd just have to make sure they
did the right thing each round. But imagine the crowd's reaction when
everyone - the other judges, all the people, both fighters, etc. - knows
that one of the judges is at best not watching the same fight.

Another "proposal" was to add overtime in the case of a draw. Let 'em
fight another 3 rounds and see what happens. I think his proposal is that
if'n it's still a draw after 3 more rounds, let it stand.

TTom

    re: Big Hands
    
    I'll never forget the SI picture from a few years back that showed
    Andre The Giant (RIP) with his hand around a 12oz can of beer.
    The width (from thumb down to pinky) of Andre's hand easily surpassed 
    the height of the beer can.
    
    Yikes!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    	I think they should do like the early years in boxing and fight
    until somebody goes down.  No doubt about the winner then.
    
    				/Don

Article: 13317
From: [email protected] (UPI)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.misc
Subject: Bruno to sue over ``Uncle Tom'' slur
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 93 8:28:45 PDT
 
	CARDIFF (UPI) -- Frank Bruno Wednesday issued a High Court writ
against his world heavyweight title fight rival Lennox Lewis.
	He is seeking damages for libel claiming that Lewis referred to him
as an ``Uncle Tom'' in a newspaper article.
	Bruno is also seeking an injunction to prevent Lewis using the words
again.
	The writ was served on the WBC champion Wednesday by Bruno's
solictor, Henri Brandman, at a press conference in Cardiff to publicise
Saturday's morning's big fight at Cardiff Arms Park.
	It was immediately torn up by Lewis's manager, Frank Maloney, sitting
next to the champion.
	Maloney said: ``This is the cheapest publicity stunt ever.''
	Brandman said later: ``This is not a publicity stunt to throw Lennox
Lewis off guard -- these are words which Frank finds particularly
offensive.''
	He said Bruno's claim was for ``damages for libel which the defendant
caused to be published in an article headed 'Bruno's dream is haunted by
realities of the past' in the sports section of the Observer dated
September 26''.
	The boxer also sought ``an injunction to restrain the defendant from
further publishing or causing to be published any words to the effect
that the plaintiff is an 'Uncle Tom' or any similiar libel on the
plaintiff''.
	The press conference took another bizarre turn when Dan Duva, Lewis's
American promoter, arriving late, was forcibly prevented from joining
the top table by a security man.
	Duva was eventually allowed to sit between the rival camps after
Maloney intervened.
 jl-skxmi

    	Can't say that I blame Bruno for filing the libel suit.  After
    Lennox pummels him in their fight Uncle Frank won't be making any money
    off boxing.
    
    				/Don

  I read today where only 12 people in all of England have bet on Bruno.
 That has gotta hurt Frank, who at one time was the country's most popular
 athlete. Not only that, it's damned ridiculous. Lennox Lewis isn't super-
 man. He isn't even Mike Tyson. Lewis' biggest claim to fame is his second
 round knockout of Razor Ruddock which was deemed impressive because after
 all Ruddock had gotten his ass kicked by Mike Tyson not once but twice.
 Lewis has a good set of skills and in a different climate than today's defend
 the title once a year, he might have improved those skills enough to warrant
 being such a prohibitive favorite. Despite the fact that Bruno has lost his
 three biggest fights, I give him a very good puncher's chance of winning
 this fight. I want to see Lewis' reaction when Frank hits him on the button.
 I want to see Frank's reaction when he hits Lewis on the button.  There's
 a lot of animosity between these two and someone's going down. I'm not as
 sure as the betting public that it's going to be Bruno.

Article: 13374
From: [email protected] (UPI)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.misc
Subject: Tape on Lewis-Bruno fight
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 93 8:55:36 PDT
 
	CARDIFF (UPI) -- Tale of the tape for the Lennox Lewis-Frank Bruno WBC
world heavyweight fight in Cardiff on Saturday.
 
LEWIS                                 BRUNO
East London       BIRTHPLACE          Hammersmith, London
28                AGE                 31
6ft 4 3/4in       HEIGHT              6ft 3 1/2in
16st 5lb (229lb)  WEIGHT              17st (238lb)
83in              REACH               82in
48in              CHEST (normal)      46in
50in              CHEST (expanded)    48in
16 1/2            BICEPS              18in
14in              FOREARMS            15in
34in              WAIST               34in
26in              THIGH               28in
17 1/2in          NECK                18 1/2in
17 1/2in          CALF                16in
9 1/2in           ANKLE                9in
14in              FIST                14in
10in              WRIST                9in
23                FIGHTS              39
23/0              WINS/LOSSES         36/3
20                STOPPAGES           35
92                ROUNDS BOXED        144
 
 mp-skxmi

re: .123

Unfortunately Lewis is the only heavywieght fans have any reason to get excited 
about.  The rest of them are current stiffs, or stiffs in the making.

    
    MOre on the Horizontal H/W class........

    Anyone hear something about bad weather and having to postpone the
    fight?  Maybe fog?
    

    	TommyB, you got lucky with the Whitaker over Chavez prediction, but
    your luck has run out.  Lennox will outfox and outbox Bruno.  By the
    time Lewis and Bowe get together nobody will care. 
    
    				/Don

 Slash, I don't want to sound like I'm making an ACC Chris type prediction
 *but*...

   Lewis should win and will probably finish Bruno in about 6 rounds. However,
  Lennox isn't all that great a fighter *yet* and I've never seen him get hit
  smack on the button. If he comes out as lackadaisical as he did against Tony
  Tucker then it could get interesting. Either way, at 6 to 1 odds, I'd lay
  some scratch on Bruno. I'd at least take him to go the distance that's got
  to be somehwere around 2 to 1.

   
 re . Walt

    Yup, the forecast is for torrential downpours. The fight would then be moved
   to tomorrow night. If it does move that might favor Lennox because big Frank
   has worked himself up into a lather ovwer this one.

    	Tell you what Tommy I'll lay you six beers to one for the next time
    we get together at Forty's.  How 'bout it?
    
    				/Don

    	Okay, either I get a free beer, or you get a free buzz.
    
    				/Don

    Lennox Lewis *did* end up winning on a sixth round stoppage but he
   confirmed everything that I thought about him. He was seriously hurt
   quite often in this fight, up to and including the very moment that
   he landed that wild and lucky left hook that sent Bruno along on his
   trip to the arms of Morpheus. It is quite possible that Lewis hadn't
   won a single round of the fight accept the last one and if Bruno were
   a better finisher he could have put Lewis away a good four or five diff-
   erent times. Bruno deserves credit for having a big heart and I hope
   he retires and enjoys all of the money he has made. Lewis on the other
   hand had better go back to the drawing board and figure out why his
   skills are regressing. If he couldn't solve something as simple Frank 
   Bruno's straight up and straight ahead style then he'll be easy pickings 
   for Michael Moorer or Riddick Bowe. It sounds a bit jingoistic but if you 
   want to be the best then you have to train and fight with the best and 
   learn from the best. If Lewis wants to fully develop the raw talent that
   he has then he had best drop his current management, hook up with proven
   winners and move to the States. Otherwise he'll just be an answer to a
   trivia question.

re: -1

I didn't see the fight, but from the hightlights, Lewis looked much slower than
I expected.  After this, I tend to agree that he is far from a dominant 
heavyweight.

=Bob=

    Kinda funny to be worrying about being a jingoist after you tell a Brit
    he needs to move to the States. 

 >> Kinda funny to be worrying about being a jingoist after you tell a Brit
 >> he needs to move to the States. 

     I'm not worried about it because it's true. And funny or not, it's not 
    mere happenstance that no British fighter has won the heavyweight title 
    *in the ring* in over 101 years. The US is where it's at as far as boxing 
    is concerned *especially* for the heavyweights. The money is here. All of 
    the best trainers, sparring partners and facilities are here, too. Lewis 
    *did* train in the DC area for this fight but obviously it wasn't enough.
    Friday night, Lewis looked like a fighter fighting his fourth professional
    fight not his twenty-fourth. He continually ate Bruno's jab and had no eff-
    ective counter for it. He threw looping punches, he never really attacked 
    the body, he got caught with his feet together and a myriad of other amat-
    eurish mistakes. No way a guy with his raw ability in the hands of the 
    Duvas or Emmanuel Stewart or Kevin Rooney or Eddie Futch gets beaten as 
    badly as he did Friday night and needs a lucky punch to save his butt. Word
    is that Tommy Morrison is next in line for a title shot at Lewis. Morrison
    has his own flaws but he also owns the best left hook in the business so if
    the same Lennox Lewis that fought Friday shows up against Morrsion we could
    very well see the first white heavyweight champ since Gerry Coetzee.
    

    	I'll make sure and tell Forty to put my beer on ice so it'll be
    cold when you buy it for me Tommy.
    
    				/Don

  Did you watch it, Slashman? If you did, can you honestly tell me that you
 never once thought Lewis was on the verge of being knocked out and losing
 his title? He hurt himself where it counts most in boxing - at the box 
 office. His aura of invincibilty is gone. Out the window. The talk about
 wanting to fight Tyson just once before retirement is just idle boasting 
 by a wannabe. Luckily for Lewis, the public has a very short memory and one
 or two impressive knockouts of someone the likes of Morrison or Gonzales and
 he can regain some of the luster that he lost. But another bad outing or
 two and he'll be lucky to get a 25% share of the purse of an eventual fight
 with Bowe. It'll be interesting to see what his next move is. Unlike, Hagler
 who used to have the worst corner in boxing, Lewis doesn't have any longstand-
 ing loyalties to his cornermen who had him ill-prepared for Friday's bout.
 Lewis can't afford to wage the kinds of wars he had Friday very often. It's
 just not healthy.  

Until just prior to Lewis' left hook that absolutely caught Bruno, it
certainly looked like he was headed to losing the decision, at best.

There's no way Lewis woulda survived Mike Tyson for the first 5 or 6
rounds if he had fought him the way he fought Bruno. In fact, I kept
thinking that he wouldn't have lasted against Riddick Bowe. 

And I'll go so far as to say, he'd better get his act together or he
won't last against Tommy Morrision.

But the man can punch. He took his own sweet time to do it Friday and
that may cost him next time around.

TTom

    	I knew he would come up with the knockout punch.
    
    				Nostra/DONus

re: 146

Tommy Morrison says he is going to train in England...

He's dead meat.

Mike

I was in a bar while the fight was on.  They weren't showing it, but 
ESPN kept breaking in with "round scores".  I don't know who was doing
the scoring for ESPN, but Bruno kept winning rounds, and was slightly
ahead when he got TKO'd.


'Saw

    replay of SweetPea / Chavez fight on ESPN this weekend.
    
    

    	NBC should air it on Unsolved Mysteries.
    
    				/Don

Rollward Chubbo, uh, er, Slasher.....8^) 8^) 8^)

good analysis Tom , but personally I hope Bowe falls asleep and Evander
knocks his block off. It'll probably happen too. We must grease the skids
as much as possible to having the "The Duke" as the unified champ....

Besides Roc N. is almost as low on the pole as DK..........

    re: .148
    
    I just called my bookie and planted $100 on Holyfield.
    
    thanks,
    
    - ACC Chris

    In SPORTS there is no such thing as a sure thing, 'specially when
    you're talking about the corrupt boxing industry.
    
    Your KoD just cemented my thinking that Holyfield will win to set up
    the inevitable HOLYFIELD-BOWE III.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

�    I just called my bookie and planted $100 on Holyfield.
    
    I thought you were against this kind of thing.

  >>  In SPORTS there is no such thing as a sure thing, 


      Of course there are sure things in sports. For example:

       o Always bet against the Broncos in the Super Bowl
     
       o Always bet against the Red Sox in the World Series

       o Never bet on the white guy in a heavyweight championship fight

       o Never bet on a jockey who looks like John Candy
 
       o The 2-2 never wins the final in a Super Bowl squares pool
          
       o Never bet on a Navy team that Lou Hotlz calls "their best ever"

       o Never bet on the Caribean entry in any winter Olympic sport
    
       o Always bet on Kirelin
    
       o Don't pick the Ivy League entry to win it all in your NCAA 
         tournament pool
       
       o Never bet that Charlie Brown will finally kick that football
         in this week's strip    
    
       o Bet that Cal Ripken Jr will be at ss on Opening Day 1994
    
     

    
    	Amen Tommy.  He should take his 1.5 mill and quietly retire to
    	the movies or something.
    
    Claybone

    	Hey Tommy, go back a few notes and you'll see that I told you
    Morrison was a stiff.
    
    				/Don

>    	Hey Tommy, go back a few notes and you'll see that I told you
>    Morrison was a stiff.
    
 
  Slash your missing the big picture here. I think in true WWF style Tommie
 has to learn to loose before he can win....makes the story that much better...

 mike

I think he still needs to loose a few more and start working in a meat plant..

Does this mean that of the three world heavyweight titles, two are now held by
"englishmen"? Excellent. Any time you chaps over the pond want some tips, don't
hesitate to ask. 8-)

You used to be the best but now you can only dream of having boxers like Chris
Eubank, Lennox Lewis, etc. Still at least you've got Riddick "Fat Boy" Bowe. 8-)

Mike

 >> Does this mean that of the three world heavyweight titles, two are 
 >> now held by "englishmen"? Excellent. 

    Actually, the title that "englishman" Michael Dent took off Tommy 
    Morrison is scoffed at by boxing fans and insiders. Nobody takes the
    WBOgus seriously but the WBO itself and promoters after a fast buck.
    There are three generally recognised sanctioning organizations - the 
    IBF, the WBA and the WBC - Riddick Bowe holds both the WBA and IBF 
    titles. He threw the WBC title in the trashcan rather than fight a
    mandatory title defense against Lewis. By the way, Michael Dent is a 
    former three time New York Golden Gloves champ and Lennox Lewis re-
    presented Canada in the Olympics.

 >> You used to be the best but now you can only dream of having boxers 
 >> like Chris Eubank, Lennox Lewis, etc. 

    Chris "I can't even beat that stiff Nigel Benn"  Eubanks and Lennox
    "Frank Bruno rocked me" Lewis? There are about twelve guys (no exagg-
    eration) in Eubanks' weight class in the States that could beat him 
    like he stole something. And Bowe's biggest fear, after the Lewis-Bruno
    fight, is that someone will knock Lewis out before Bowe and Lennox can
    meet for a big payday. Britain hasn't produced a fighter that was the
    best in his class since Lloyd Honeyghan.

Err, no, Chris "I've never been beat" Eubank and Lennox "Bowe too scared to
fight me" Lewis. 8-)

And Frank Bruno rocked Mike Tyson too, if you remember, so that hardly makes
Lennox a dropout. 

As soon as fat boy Bowe steps in the ring with Lennox he's dogmeat.. That's if
he beats Holyfield, of course, which I doubt.

Chris Eubank is simply the best. He's had a tough time recently because he's
sort of lacking that killer instinct, but you try putting someone in a coma and
not worrying about it the next time you step in the ring. Give the guy a break.

Mike

 >> And Frank Bruno rocked Mike Tyson too, if you remember, so that 
 >> hardly makes Lennox a dropout. 

    Yes, Frank Bruno in his prime did rock Mike Tyson but he certainly 
    wasn't giving Tyson the same gad awful beating that the washed up Frank
    Bruno was giving Lewis and forcing Lewis to save his skin with a very
    lucky punch.

 >> As soon as fat boy Bowe steps in the ring with Lennox he's dogmeat.. 
 >> That's if he beats Holyfield, of course, which I doubt.

    Riddick Bowe likes to pattern himself after Muhammad Ali but the truth 
    is that he's a hell of alot more like Larry Holmes. And that's not a bad
    thing at all. Both Holmes and Bowe are big (6'3" and 6'5" respectively)
    both have that stiff jab and a lot more heart than people ever give them
    credit for. And both don't get the recognition that they deserve because
    they lack(ed) that tough challenger to bestow greatness upon them. And
    neither one of them look like Michelangelo's David. Bowe will absolutely 
    crush Holyfield. And if Lewis continues to fail to improve and turns in  
    an amateurish performance, similar to the one he turned in against Bruno, 
    he'll get crushed, too. Right now, Michael Moorer looms as Bowe's toughest 
    challenge not Lewis.

  >> Chris Eubank is simply the best. He's had a tough time recently because 
  >> he's sort of lacking that killer instinct, but you try putting someone 
  >> in a coma and not worrying about it the next time you step in the ring. 
  >> Give the guy a break.

     Eubank isn't talented but he's smart. Smart enough not to fight anyone 
     of note from this side of the pond until he does he's just another good
     European middle.

Bowe models himself on Ali? Snigger. Most amusing. More like Larry Holmes? Oh,
this is too much. Riddick Bowe is more like the recent prize porker version of
George Foreman than Larry Holmes. Face facts: he's a bloater and will have no
chance against an in-form Lennox Lewis. The sooner everyone's favourite cockney
unifies all the titles, the better. 8-)

Moving on to your follow up gag, I imagine Chris will stroll across the ocean
and give your lads a pounding when you can come up with a decent opponent. He
can pick up plenty money fighting Europeans and those Americans brave enough to
get in a plane, so there's little point him taking on a boxer like James Toney
in the States. Toney can make all the cracks about "whupping you (Eubank) and
your mother's ass" he likes but the sad truth is that he'd probably stand a
better chance against the latter. That way it will bear a closer resemblance to
the fights that won him the title in the first place.

Both Chris and Nigel Benn have fought plenty of Americans and I don't remember a
single one of them that was a challenge. True, they talk good fights but when
it's mano a mano, I buy British every time. 8-)

Mike

Bowe only threw the belt in the bin because he was scared to fight Lewis for it.
Take a brief visit to Reality Ranch; you might like it. Bowe preferred to fight
some over-the-hill saddo like Jesse Ferguson instead of a prime-time Olympic
champion like Lennox Lewis. Bowe knows only too well that he can't take Lewis.
Remember, he's tried and failed before. When he enters the ring, he'll know that
his career is over. 

No-one's trying to claim that the Bruno fight was Lewis' best, but he still won,
and by a knockout. Bruno punches like a sledgehammer and doesn't know when to
fall down, and yet Lewis a) took everything Bruno threw at him, and b) flattened
Bruno. Your man has no hope. 

When Lewis fights Bowe, if Porkie can pick up the courage that is, Lewis will be
ready for a tough fight and will slaughter Bowe. It will be the Olympics all
over again. Bowe is too slow, too fat, and too cocky. Personally, I doubt that
Bowe will ever agree to fight Lewis.

Nunn-Eubank will hopefully happen soon. Doubtless Chris will win yet again, but
no-one will give him credit because he wins through tactics and speed rather
than standing still and punching his opponent until one guy falls over.

Mike

I thought I heard on the radio this AM that Bowe was in the 250-260
lbs range, and that he was at 235 for the first Holyfield fight.
If true, then the "porker" label might be accurate.

Ken

    	Man I hope this guy Mike is around when/if Bowe and Lewis finally
    get it on and he's willing to back up his bluster.
    
    				/Don

I miss the Bibe........

    	Yeah, but Tommy I still want a piece of that wager if he really
    thinks Lewis can beat Bowe.
    
    				/Don   

Unfortunately for your wallets I'm not desperately keen on gambling (even though
Lewis over Bowe wouldn't be a gamble) but I stand by what I said. Bowe-Holyfield
will open your eyes as to what a guzzler Bowe is, and you'll be flocking to the
Lewis camp the day after. (He's about as American as he is English anyway.)
Until that cheery date I will sit and revel in my own smugness.

Nunn's too old to have a realistic chance against Chris. Chris doesn't just win
fights, he ends careers. Nunn's morale will be laying next to him on the canvas
after he goes the whole fight without laying a glove on our boy.

Mike

If Bowe beats Holyfield I will eat my hat. 8-)

Mike

	Mike, 

	Eating you "hat" will not suffice in this file.  That is, unless it
	is made out of CROW feathers.  Take from one who knows.


	billl

    Mike,
    	Being in the land of punt I would suggest you get down long and
    hard on ol holyfield if you have an inspiration that the upset is in
    the making.
    	We don't have the luxury except in Las Vegas to back our foresight
    on sporting events.
    	I have to agree with Tommy etal; Holyfield is outmatched and will
    end this fight with his back on the canvas around round 6 or 7 with
    only his fattened wallet as a cushion.

Err..... language barrier. In England crowing is something you do if you win, so
are you suggesting that I'm right or is it something entirely different over
there? If so, why can't you just speak proper Queen's English and stop messing
about with all your daft sayings and mis-spellings? We invented the language,
after all. 8-)

You'll all be eating humble pie on Monday. 8-)

Lennox rules.

Mike

|
| >> If so, why can't you just speak proper Queen's English and stop messing
| >> about with all your daft sayings and mis-spellings? We invented the lang-
| >> uage, after all. 8-)

And we just set about cleaning up the mess you made with it...[many smilies
and tongue firmly planted in cheek....]


'Saw

RE: eating crow.

Oh. Now I understand. Well, I won't be doing any of that anyway. 8-)

Besides when was I bragging and boasting? I'm just proud of our humble boxers
triumphing against all the odds, emerging from their humble, bankrupt nation and
soundly thrashing the pants of you American types. 8-)

I think I might be off sick on Monday.

Mike

> I think I might be off sick on Monday.

and .184 has also learned very quickly to prepare and Hal it.

The Crazy Met

    Mike's note is an interesting example of different perceptions via
    different medias and I am sure Mike is as sincere as Tom is and trust
    me Tom is not exagerrating on the general perception stateside on Bowe
    and that is
    
    	There is no threat to him among any active heavyweight
    	Holyfield is simply an event waiting to be over - no more suspense
    than, say, the Buster Douglas - Mike Tyson fight
    	Lennox Lewis will be an even easier fight than Holyfield or
    	Holyfield would whip Lewis
    
    But Mike I do believe you are sincere in your perception and as
    confident that it is accurate ...
    
    

So when does Tyson get out of prison? He should be eligible for
parole fairly soon. That could make things even more interesting.

The Crazy Met

what does -$450, +$350 mean??

The Crazy Met

    
    Tommy, do you think Moorer would really give Bowe a good fight ?
    
    

Geez Tommy, you just drop the ball there man. Anyone who would take Rock Newman
for a man of intergrity needs help....

;^)

    
  >> Tommy, do you think Moorer would really give Bowe a good fight ?
    
     Moorer's biggest problem, besides his soft chin, is that he's 
     a bit of a headcase. Sometimes he trains. Sometimes he doesn't.
     Sometimes he wants to be a champion. Sometimes he wants to re-
     tire from boxing. I don't know what else he wants do with his
     life but last I checked there aren't a whole lot of ways to
     earn a couple million for a night's work. Moorer with his head on 
     straight could prove interesting for Bowe. Moorer's got a great 
     set of hands. He's sneaky quick with flashes of power. George
     Benton and Lou Duva think enough of his talent to take him under
     their wing. But that chin is a big negative. He could go down a 
     whole bunch of times against Bowe but he could also make life 
     miserable for Riddick. The thing is, there's no one else out 
     there.
     
    

Tommy,

are you ordering the PPV telecast for this fight??

    
    I see your point with Moorer. The last time I saw him fight he showed
    good hand speed but not much power. Lateral movement was good, but a
    blast from Riddick I feel would send him one way to Palookaville. 
    I think the fight I saw him was with James (I'm at least 50)
    Bonecrusher Smith. If memory serves me correctly he could not put him
    away, but I may be wrong.
    
    I think if Moorer were to step into the ring with RB, he may wish he
    never did once inside of 2 rounds. JMO. At least the great pretender
    Tommy (Big Gun, Little Chin) Morrison won't be heard from again. Can
    you imagine the beating either Holyfield, Moorer, or Lewis would give
    that big white turd ?
    
     The HW division is always controversial, to say the least.
      
    

    
    
        Hinsdale NH. has got it live!!!! on TV of course...
    
    
    
    Chappy

   >> I think the fight I saw him was with James (I'm at least 50)
   >> Bonecrusher Smith. If memory serves me correctly he could not put him
   >> away, but I may be wrong.
    
      I think I remember this fight. Duva and Benton were trying to get 
      Moorer to do some new things to help him minimize the risk that he 
      would ever get whacked on that fragile chin of his. As a result,
      Moorer had to pause and think before he did just about anything.
      Towards the end of the fight he said the hell with it and fought
      his natural style and looked more dominant. Hopefully,  the things
      that Benton is trying to get him to do will become second nature 
      at some point and Moorer will be a bit of a force.
    

    That might be fall 1996 with proper buildup similar to Ali - Frazier
    
    I will take Tyson over Bowe in that one

  >>  -< First 100 million$ fight, maybe more >-

      If Tyson comes out and is anywhere near where he was at his peak then a
      Tyson-Bowe or a Tyson-Lewis will set all kinds of receipts records.

  >>  That might be fall 1996 with proper buildup similar to Ali - Frazier
    
      Yeah, Ali is the most obvious precedent for this. But largely because 
      of his religious beliefs, Ali had a lot more personal discipline than 
      Tyson. If Tyson had Ali's self-discipline he wouldn't even be in the 
      spot he's in. Because of that, there's no telling what kind of cond-
      ition Mike's staying in. Even if he is working out in jail, it's not 
      the equivalent of going down to Gleason's Gym and banging with a grade 
      A sparring partner. There's no doubt that Mike's skills will have atr-
      ophied. It's just a matter of how much and can the damage be repaired. 
      It's really too bad because Tyson, at one time, had a real shot at break-
      ing Marciano's record and was as good a heavyweight as has been around 
      in a long long time. It was almost as sad to see him take that big fall 
      as it was to see Tony Ayala take the same fall ten years ago when Ayala
      was a great great jr. middleweight who would have made that whole Hagler/
      Leonard/Hearns/Duran mix real real interesting if he were tossed in there.
    

    Ah, Tyson will come out fo the joint weighing 375, and the only thing
    he'll be able to beat when he gets out is the eggs fer one of his 12
    egg omelets.
    
    JaKe
    

    Tyson will be 25 at that time, maybe 26??
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
  >> Tyson will be 25 at that time, maybe 26??
    
     He's 27 years old now.     
    

    yabut, iffin he runs around the globe REEEEEAL fast a few hundred
    times...
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

    Has Tyson let himself go in jail, I know all jails seem to have Gym's
    but dont some of them have boxing rings as well ?? (Or is that just in
    the movies).  I mean what else can he be doing (dont answer that), I
    would figure he'd be spending every available moment training.  he
    should come out of jail, bigger, stronger and maybe even faster and
    smarter :-) .... I guess well have to wait and see.  If he comes out in
    shape he'll fight a couple middle of the road contenders and get a
    match with the #1 contender of the champ, both of which will draw big
    money.....
    								MaB

    
    
    
    
             He was on 20/20 or something a couple months ago. He looked in
    real good shape. He is not allowed to box in jail though. I believe he
    could jog though.
    
    
    Chappy

    Holyfield wins in a decision.
    Scores were 115-113, 115-114, 114-114.
    
    Some guy parachuted into the ring in the middle of the 7th round.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    ap had it 115 - 113 Bowe
    
    Anybody watch it?  Who actually won.

    Well ESPN's scored it 115-114 Holyfield, Globe scored it 115-113
    Holyfield. Neither Holyfield nor his mananger, Rock Newman, complained
    about the scores. Sounds like this time the judges saw the same fight
    everyone else did. Tommy was planning on watching the fight.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

Well, far be it from me to say I told you so (but I did).

Bowe was, in the end, just too out of condition to face Holyfield. He was
puffing after the first couple of rounds and never really dominated the fight
for anything more than a couple of minutes in the last round. Interestingly
though, he was starting to look better just before Captain Nutcase parachuted
into history. Holyfield's lack of punching power almost betrayed him once more,
as he repeatedly thumped Bowe on the chin without any real effect. If it had
been Lewis packing the punches Bowe would still be unconscious.

The fight proves that Lewis is streets ahead of the rest of the field, and he
will murder Holyfield should Evander be fool enough to get in a ring with him.

I imagine fat boy will try to make a comeback, but if he does it will have to
wait until after Lennox unifies the belts, and when the two finally meet, Lewis
will finish him for good. If those two are the best you can offer, then I think
Britain will hold the title for a mighty long time yet. Keep trying lads.

Rule Britannia,

Mike

    Holyfield definitely won the fight, but to be honest I thought they'd
    call it a draw and Bowe would still be champ.  The fans certainly get
    their money's worth when these two guys go at it.  Bowe's mistake was
    having to lose too much weight in too short a time.  He wasn't as
    sharp this time around.  Holyfield was.
    
    The idiot with the parachute is lucky he wasn't beaten to death.  They
    should have let those guys pound on him a bit longer to knock some
    sense into his hollow head.  That was the most bizzare thing I've seen
    in a while.
    
     					Steve
    

re .213:

	Well, you certainly have taken the title.   The title used to
	belong to MrT for his T-Illogic, but this one takes the cake.

	I've seen some shakey prepositions in my time, followed by some
	even shakier conclusions, but if this one isn't apples and oranges
	(and a monster leap away from all objective analysis)
	who knows what is.

	This one ranks right up there with all the folks who just KNEW	
	that Tyson was gonna take Douglas apart, because Tyson has KO'd
	everybody in less than 2 minutes....   One fight has no bearing
	on another when you come right down to it.

	I'll give ya this -- the heavyweight fight scene just got a little
	more interesting.  It was kind of boring before....


The moral is -- don't bulk up....8^)


'Saw

     It was a close fight but Holyfield did win it. Or more accurately,
    Bowe lost it. Riddick didn't do enough to win it. Holyfield threw a
    simple problem at him and Bowe couldn't solve it. The turning point 
    in the fight came when Bowe got cut in two places ( 3rd or 4th round?).
    One cut was on high on left side of the bridge of his nose and the other
    was right on his left eyelid. Bowe seemed to lose heart for a few rounds
    after that and really it looked like Evander was going to win on a stop-
    page. That parachutist was really manna from heaven because it gave Bowe 
    a chance to recover from his cuts and get himself back together. He was
    more effective after that but still couldn't get his right hand off. He
    may have suffered from lack of conditioning but it seemed more like he
    just couldn't figure a good counter for what Holyfield was throwing at 
    him.
    
     Holyfield fought a much smarter fight this time and for the most
    part avoided the infighting that cost him the last fight. But when the 
    two did lock in the clinches Evander gave as good as he got.
    

Interesting differences of opinion. 

I thought Bowe was beginning to reassert himself when the parachutist landed,
and was quite relieved that he was forced to wait and let Evander get his breath
back.

As for "objective analysis". Who needs it? I prefer "objectionable analysis".
But you probably guessed that. 8-)

Mike

>As for "objective analysis". Who needs it? I prefer "objectionable analysis".
>But you probably guessed that. 8-)

It don't much matter to me because I don't follow boxing that much, but
short of Hal or Joj it's rare in here that you get a totally illogical
argument based on fanaticism.....8^)


'Saw

                                    
    Only in boxing would they permit a guy as fat as Riddick Bowe vie for the
    championship of the world... ;-)
    
    Seriously, though, conventional wisdom took a serious beating in this
    fight, starting with the business about how it was not possible for 
    Holyfield to still possess the desire after taking such a beating at 
    the hands of Bowe in the last fight.  The Duvas must feel just a little 
    foolish right about now (although maybe for the first time in the 
    history of boxing they did what they felt was right in letting 
    Holyfield go, which was commendable if wrong).  And while Bowe's
    storied childhood background is inspirational, it still is just a 
    story, part of the past and not the present.  Whatever emotional hunger 
    Bowe feels in the ring still cannot permit him to come in at 10 pounds
    overweight after a crash conditioning program just to get that far.  The
    guy in the other corner doesn't much care about the stories...
    
    Holyfield is not a great heavyweight from a historical perspective by
    any stretch, but the guy is gaining immense respect with each and every 
    fight at this point.  He doesn't let up.  If they all had Holyfield's 
    discipline in training and his toughness, there'd be no room for
    Holyfield...    
    
    glenn
         

    
    
         Well I for one thought that Bowe won the fight. As Rock Newman
    said on 'Fan this morning Bowe landed 100 more punches than Holyfield.
    It was a close fight and I always thought in the boxing world you give
    the close ones to the Champ? Holyfield did impress me though. He took
    an awful lot of punishment and stood toe to toe with Riddick.
    
    Chap

 I agree with Mike that I thought at the begining of the 7th, it appeared
 as if Bowe was ready to take control and lost it. After the break he 
 seemed to fight in spurts. Evander took the Sugar Rim approach and used
 the last 30 seconds of the rounds brilliantly. I myself thought the fight
 should have been a draw. The fight really reminded me of Hagler and Sugar
 Rim from a scoring standpoint in that the Champ did enough to win but didn't.
 He threw more and landed more but was lackadasical at times. Evander did
 enough to win and won because he was more agressive than Bowe.

 I think that it was sick of those people to attack the Parchutist. Sure
 the guy was jerk and totally wrong but it a sorry state of affairs here
 that people figure hell I can get away with this so let's beat this guy
 to a pulp. Luck for him no one had a gun. 

 mike

Holyfield said that he had back spasms in the 7th round. After the loonie 
parachuted in and they had that 20 minute break the spasms were gone.

The Crazy Met

I sat up until 5-30 a.m. to watch the fight with a friend, and I said then and
still say now that they should have declared the fight a no-contest and sent
Bowe to hospital with his wife. Some things are more important than fat
promoters making lots of money.

When it restarted the UK commentator confirmed that Bowe was not told about his
wife's condition because Rock Newman didn't want to worry him. If this is true
then Newman deserves a thorough kicking. Correct me if I'm wrong but a husband
_should_ worry when his pregnant wife is taken to hospital, and might even want
to go with her and make sure she's okay. 

Shows what a friendly, humanitarian sport boxing is. For every guy that makes it
big I'll bet there's a thousand poor guys with brain damage and one fat promoter
with a big house and flash car.

All hail free enterprise.

Mike

re:-2

You wouldn't understand. 

It's called chivalry (It comes from history, which is not something your chaps
are greatly blessed with). 

Besides, it would have got Bowe in practice for when he fights Lewis, because
he's certainly going to be taking a trip to the hospital then. 

That's if the poor fellow manages to resurrect his career, of course. Perhaps
you could arrange a charity playoff between your two great ladies of the ring
Bowe and Morrison for the right to be humiliated in public by Sir Lennox Lewis. 

But take heart. At least the baseball world series is sure to never leave your
side of the Ocean.

Mike

	Could someone tell tose that didn't see the fight what happened
	with the parachutist?  I surmised from the previous replies that 
	some nut parachuted in the ring during the fight, but am unclear 
	as to what exactly happened after he landed.


	billl

Half way through the seventh round a guy with a parachute and a massive
propellor on his back landed on the ropes. He fell backwards, landing on Revd
Jesse Jackson's wife, and several members of the irate audience started thumping
him He got up, and fell on Mrs Jackson again before hordes of guards descended
on the fracas It took twenty minutes to get everyone sat down, and several
people were taken to hospital including Mrs Jackson (accompanied by her husband)
and Bowe's wife (not accompanied by her husband). The guy himself was taken off
in a stretcher and later charged with dangerous flying.

Hope this helps.

Mike

PS Look, not one anti-American slur. I must be losing my touch.

        The parachutist was carry a banner that read "Save the Whales" after
    hearing that Holyfield was beating up on some boxer that carried a lot
    of blubber. After landing and trying to "Free Willy" the Japanese
    Nintento people ( Who were there trying to get a look at an American Sumo
    wrestler) took offense to the parachutist and tried to make shusi out
    of him. Clearer heads prevailed and the Nintento people are now
    marketing a new game, Parachuting into Sports Events. You can try and
    land in the Super Bowl, The world Series, The World Cup and even the
    Indy 500. The NBA and the NHL are the toughtest, not much room to open
    your chute before you hit the ice/floor.

    HTH, REK

    Saw a interview with the nut on TV.  He calls himself "FAN MAN."
    
    All he got was a $200 dollar fine.  He's lucky he didn't pull
    the lights down.
    
    Mike

So was the label "porker" accurate then?  Is Bowe just another Greg
Page?  Loads of talent, loads of fat.

Ken

      When I 1st heard of the parachutest came in at the same time Bowe
    started losing in rounds,  I thought maybe he was payed to save Bowe.
    
      Of course as honest as the boxing profesion is,  this kinda thought
    can't be reality, or could it?
    
      Tim

	Not to rub it in Tommy, but I think after Holyfield's masterful 
performance the beer count is up to 5.  I figured that Evander was a good 
shot at 4-1 especially after the reports that Bowe reported to training 
camp at over 300 pounds.  Even at a young age losing that much weight in 
such a short amount of time definitely affects strength and stamina.  You 
can count on Bowe/Holyfield III in 6 months or more.

				/Don

    With all the bad mouthing accross the sea's, I cant get the players
    straight, which of these boxer's is from England ? Bowe, Evendor,
    Lewis etc ????
    
    								mab
    
    I wish I watched this fight, as for close fight going to the Champ,
    one judge saw it as a draw, he proberbly saw it as a holyfield win
    but let the fact that bowe was the champ he scored it as a draw.
    
    I havnt heard one source that outright felt Bowe won it

    
    
     So, anybody know where I can get me a rig similar to what
    the parachutist was sporting? How about a catalog?
      
      Little did his wife know, that, when he said:
    
        "Gee hon, I think I'll drop in on the fight tonight"
    
         that he really meant it!
    
      I think what Vegas will attempt next is simultaneous
    championship fights in adjacent rings, and then lay odds
    that Joey Kneival can't jump 'em.
    
    
       Unbelievable.
    
    

    I strongly disagree with anyone who called Bowe fat or out of shape.
    In my opinion, he salvaged a draw by winning the last two rounds of the
    fight, and only an impressive spurt in the last 30 seconds of Round 10
    won Holyfield that round, which IMO was even until then.  No fat or out
    of shape fighter could have performed as well as Bowe did in the last
    few rounds.
    
    I also concur with those who said Bowe was coming back in the 7th
    round.  The first minute of that round were the best for Bowe since
    round 3, and he was impressive coming back from losing rounds 4-6
    rather decisively.  After the long break, Holyfield came back quickly
    and whatever momentum Bowe had built earlier in the round was gone.
    
    This was a good, not great fight.  I think htere should be a third
    fight, and the sooner the better.
    
    NAZZ

    
    > I strongly disagree with anyone who called Bowe fat or out of shape.
    > In my opinion, he salvaged a draw by winning the last two rounds of the
    > fight, and only an impressive spurt in the last 30 seconds of Round 10
    > won Holyfield that round, which IMO was even until then.  No fat or out
    > of shape fighter could have performed as well as Bowe did in the last
    > few rounds.
    
    Talk to his own manager.  Bowe isn't "fat" and he might not have been 
    in bad shape, but whatever kind of shape he was in it wasn't good 
    enough.  In the decision of the people who count (da judges) Bowe lost, 
    and he wasn't in this to salvage a draw in any case.  Bowe's manager 
    Rock Newman says that Bowe trained for a 7- or 8-round fight and that he
    just wasn't quick as he should have been, which he attributed to his 
    conditioning...
    
    glenn
       

	I didn't see the fight but looking at the judges score card's posted
in the paper. The 7th round was a very critical scoring round. One judge had
Holyfield winning, another had Bowe winning, the third called it a tie. In
the entire fight the judges disagreed in only 3 rounds. Here are the cards.

Bowe Holy Bowe Holy Holy Holy Holy Holy Bowe Holy Bowe Bowe --- Holy 115 - 113

Bowe Bowe Bowe Holy Holy Holy Tie  Holy Bowe Holy Holy Bowe --- Holy 115 - 114

Bowe Bowe Bowe Holy Holy Holy Bowe Holy Bowe Holy Holy Bowe --- Tie  114 - 114

	Granted you don't know what would have happened if there wasn't a 21
minute delay. If the first 2 judges gave Bowe the 7th round. All three judges
would have scored it 114 - 114 draw and Bowe keeps the title.

Ron

    
>>Bowe Holy Bowe Holy Holy Holy Holy Holy Bowe Holy Bowe Bowe --- Holy 115 - 113

>>Bowe Bowe Bowe Holy Holy Holy Tie  Holy Bowe Holy Holy Bowe --- Holy 115 - 114

>>Bowe Bowe Bowe Holy Holy Holy Bowe Holy Bowe Holy Holy Bowe --- Tie  114 - 114
    
    
    
    		***STRANGE CHANTING ALERT***STRANGE CHANTING ALERT***
    
    Is this some kind of novena style prayer or whut???
    
    JaKe
    

    
    
    Deck your Bowes with Bowes of Holy.....Falalalalalalal
    
    
    Chappy

�    I havnt heard one source that outright felt Bowe won it
    
    You missed the AP source then.

fwiw there does not seem to be a lot of controversy over the decision.
The AP source would seem to be in the minority.

The Crazy Met

    It's not out of the realm of possibility that Bowe lost this fight to
    to have a shot at $50M in another rematch.

    
    > It's not out of the realm of possibility that Bowe lost this fight to
    > to have a shot at $50M in another rematch.
    
    From the postfight quotes (something like "how much money are we gonna
    make on the rematch, Rock?") neither Bowe nor his manager seemed terribly 
    heartbroken about the fight.  At least subconsciously Bowe probably
    understood going into the fight that a tough loss wouldn't be catastrophic.
    
    glenn
    

    
  >> Holyfield is not a great heavyweight from a historical perspective by
  >> any stretch, but the guy is gaining immense respect with each and every 
  >> fight at this point.  He doesn't let up.  If they all had Holyfield's 
  >> discipline in training and his toughness, there'd be no room for
  >> Holyfield...    
    
      The guy had to get up off of the floor to beat tomato can Bert
      Cooper. He then proceede to lose his title to Bowe. And then went
      the distance with journeyman Alex Stewart. And then eked out a close 
      decision over a fighter who we now know had to drop fifty pounds in 
      the weeks leading up to the fight. Let's hold off on building any 
      monuments until we're sure that this fight wasn't just an aberr-
      ation.
             
    

    I heard a report today that Marvin Hagler was admitted to a hospital in
    Milan.  Not too many details.  Some reports are that it is a stomach
    problem, others are that it is a cardiac problem.

    I'm not building any monuments for Holyfield.  He's not a great
    fighter.  I thought he was a bum until the first Bowe fight and then
    only in defeat after that fight did I have any respect for him.  Now
    that he's won this fight that respect has only doubled.  When I say
    "respect" it's not strictly his boxing talent that I'm talking about;
    if he never wins another fight I just personally feel that he's
    accomplished more than he had any right too...
    
    glenn
    

    RE: 248 Mac, it was reported yesterday that MMH has a stomach virus...
    
    REK

    
      Does anybody still believe that boxing is legit?
    
      In my opinion, the only difference between boxing and the 
    WWF admits that wrestling is "for entertainment only".
    
      
    

	Guess I'm not the only one who compares this to a circus, huh?


	billl

    Id say im not convinced that the majority of the big fights are fixed.
    But it would be too much work to fix them all :-)
    								MaB

    The outcome of this fight was telegraphed months ago:
    
    - Bowe wins a 12-round decision a year ago.
    - Bowe puts on 60 lbs. in the 10 months following the fight.
    - Holyfield puts on 10 lbs. of muscle over the next year.
    - Bowe loses 50 of those lbs. in the last 2 months and is obviously
      underconditioned.
    - Bowe loses a potential $50M payoff in a 2nd rematch if he loses on
      Saturday.

    0-------10-------20------30------40------50------60------70------80------90
    
    |WWWF             |REG.SEASON
    	|MTV-BASKETBALL   |HOCKEY  |PRO TENNIS                     |REG.SEASON
                                                                   |COLL.BASKETS
                             |REG.SEASON       |NFL FOOTBALL
    	                     |NBA                 |NBA PLAYOFFS
                                 |BOXING                     |NCAA champ.
                                                                |NIT
                                                       |STANLEY CUP
                                                                  |MAJOR LEAGUE
                                                                  |BASEBALL
                                                                      |GOLF MAJOR
    
                                                                             (*)
    
    (*)College Minor sport such as Lacrosse
    
    Notes:
    	Baseball and Football to me have same intensity in regular season
    as postseason.  NHL/NBA differ greatly.
    	I like regular season in college basketball, especially (fe Big 10)
    major matchups.  NCAA Chanpionships suffers because if conf.tournements, 
    politics of seedings, assigning refs etc.
    	Golf is near top because of micro effect of referees decisions the
    exact opposite of nfl,nba.
    
    Boxing has potential because of mano-mano but refs,judges,alphabet
    commissions ruin it.
    
    but just 1 humble opinion
    
    Bill
    
    
    

Gee Bill,

You're moving right in on Walt's territory with your diagrams.

I dunno, though, I think that Walt had a real good one of that NY Knick,
Phoenix Suns Scalp Massage Fest, so you might not have taken the Diagram
Title yet.....


'Saw_who_could_never_draw_to_save_his_life

� I think that it was sick of those people to attack the Parchutist. Sure
� the guy was jerk and totally wrong but it a sorry state of affairs here
� that people figure hell I can get away with this so let's beat this guy
� to a pulp. Luck for him no one had a gun. 

	Mike, Mike, Mike...  My first reaction to watching the crowd 
pummel "Fan Man" was laughter.  Yup, I thoroughly enjoyed watching the 
"mob" beating the crap out of this celebrity wannabee.  Now folks can try 
to "educate" me by force feeding me Barney videos or beating me about the 
face and neck until I become more sensitive to the criminal's feelings, but 
don't bet the farm on me changing my opinion.  Quite honestly if I had been 
sitting in the front rows, I probably would've balled my fists in anger and 
gleefully joined in.

	I heard yesterday where the Reverend Jackson is calling what happened 
"concern" and not "violence" because I guess the beaters were black and the 
beatee was white.  Course if the roles were reversed the good Rev might be 
putting a different spin on it and I could be labelled a racist jerk instead 
of just a jerk for my opinion.  Hey Jesse it was "violence" and this is one 
person who has absolutely no problem with it.  The next "event crasher" may 
think twice about it if there's a possibility he'll get a broken nose and 
lose a few teeth instead of the customary slap on the wrist.  Kudos to the 
ringsiders who gave "Fan Man" the beating he deserved!

				/Don

    Yea,
    And which one of y'all never wanted to take the multi-colored afro
    and strangle that JOHN 3:23 preachin' tilt-a-whirl??
    
    MikeL
    

That guy has definitely got his come-uppance.

He finally flipped completely out, took a hostage at gun point and was
lasted seen having to be drug outta the court after being sentenced to
many years.

Actually, I didn't mind the guy, being a big fan o' the First Amendment.
Unlike the fan guy or the other episodes being mentioned, he stayed in
his seat and flipped his sign.

TTom

re rainbow head:

	And here all this time I've been seeing a shrink for all that 
	hostility I've felt towards that shmuck.  I guess I ain't so
	different after all.


	billl

    Re: last Tom and Don King is legit too.... They are a lot of fixes in
    boxing and I would not doubt that this last one was....
    
    REK

>    This talk about the fix being in for Bowe-Holyfield II is 
>   just as ridiculous as the talk about the NBA marketing depart-
>   ment orchestrating the playoffs. It insults the particpants,
>   their corners and the viewing public. If you don't like boxing
>   that's your perogative. But I've been to sporting events of 
>   every type, and nothing compares to the aura of a championship 
>   fight. It's sport at its purest. Man to man. The objectives are 
>   clear. There's no more definitve way to end an athletic contest
>   than a knock out. There's nothing more spine-chilling than a 
>   Hagler-Hearns type slugfest. Or anything prettier than a young
>   fighter in full command of his skills a la Pernell Whittaker.
>   If you don't like boxing don't watch. And if you don't watch don't
>   criticize. Because obviously the folks in here crying "Fix! Fix!"
>   like Mike Heiser, didn't even see the fight.


I'll give you all of that Tommy, because I do agree.

However, nothing causes more controversy, more cries of "fix, fix"
than a decision in boxing, especially a split decision.

I for one would like to see that electronic scorecard they talk of,
where round scores go up round by round.....


But I do agree about the knockout.....that's COOL.....


'Saw

>   criticize. Because obviously the folks in here crying "Fix! Fix!"
>   like Mike Heiser, didn't even see the fight.
    
    didn't need to, Tommy.  I told ya days ago who was going to win.  I'm
    on record among friends with predicting the winner weeks ago.

    
    Bring back 15 round title defenses, mandatory 2/year for the champ.
    This 12 round stuff is garbage.  I left the fight in the 7th round due
    to the sideshow, and the first bout.
    
    This fan man is a real meathead, he doesn't deserve the press he's
    going to get. True about the rev. Jesse, why doesn't he just button his
    trap and go away instead of putting his spin on it  ? This fight for me
    was a true low in boxing. I love boxing, but after seeing decisions go
    to the challenger in a 12 round title defense, a 20 minute delay due to
    a real a$$hole with his PR stunt and the  animals that
    wailed on him with their walkie-talkies, I got up out of my seat and
    left. I didn't care who won at that point, it was a true circus event
    with all the attractions. If I had paid 29.95 to watch that at home I
    would have been outraged. That's why I don't support those crooks and
    TVKO/PPV. I just happened to be watching a hockey game and the bar switched
    to the fight, what the hell. I didn't pay for it and I still felt
    ripped off.
    
    IMO, if you don't knock out the champ, you don't deserve the title.
    Beat him and beat him clean without any lingering questions. This is
    why I always liked Tyson, get in, wail on your opponent until he's a
    marshmellow, collect your nights cash, go home. No questions, no
    doubts. Hell, when he lost his title, Ol' Buster took his head off with
    a screaming combination and left him a quivering heap on the canvas.
    Again, no question. Result, title. 
    
    Hitman Hearns, now there is a true Fighter.
    
    

    
    
     Rocky Balboa and Apollo Creed did this gig 15 years ago.
    
     Tyson and Douglas went through the same story.
    
     boxer a wins the title from boxer b.
    
     boxer b gets bulks up, boxer a gets fat, rematch is scheduled.
    
     boxer b wins the title back  (which planet? what a surprise)
    
     boxer a vs. boxer b III is scheduled. 
    
     Tyson would have been involved in here somewhere, but he done screwed
    up and went to jail. 
    
        I was also wondering how a network camera (on the ground, and not a 
    handheld) managed to get a perfectly clear overhead  shot of this
    FanMan flying in, on this way to the ring. Just happened to be 
    shooting some buildings, I suppose.  Now Jesse Jackson has
    some input on the FanMan. (This reminds me of Bob Hunts story
    about Keena Turner of the 49'ers and his wife says: 
    "What is she doing there?" 
    
       Too f'in funny. 
    
    Too bad the 'Bibe (RIP) ain't still around. He'd make it very clear. 
    
       
    
      STeve
    
    

    
>     Have you seen the fight, Glenn?
    
    Nope, not yet.  I saw the first one live and was very much impressed
    with Holyfield's courage and stamina because I thought he was going to 
    get killed, both before and during as the action was unfolding.  I 
    thought the chances of that happening in this second fight were even 
    greater, yet Holyfield won outright in a fight that by all accounts 
    I've read was better than the first.  Was there something hidden in 
    there unreported that should cause me to actually lose respect for 
    Holyfield?
    
    glenn
    

    The NBA doesn't have the rep or past history to indicate a potential
    fix.  Boxing does.  Look at the 2 fighters in NY that were recently
    involved in a bribery case.  Look at the questionable company that
    boxing has always willingly embraced.
    
    I haven't followed boxing much for the past 6 years because of the
    circus it has become.  We were spoiled by the great heavyweights of 
    the '70s and middleweights of the '80s.  Some of the characters in the
    boxing today, and the lack of quality athletes, are ruining the sport.

    
    >> Tyson and Douglas went through the same story.
    >> boxer a wins the title from boxer b.
    >> boxer b gets bulks up, boxer a gets fat, rematch is scheduled.
    >> boxer b wins the title back  (which planet? what a surprise)
    >> boxer a vs. boxer b III is scheduled. 

       Wrong. Tyson never took the title back from Douglas. Holyfield
       got to him first. There's no way Mike Tyson took the pummeling
       that he did just so he *wouldn't* get a rematch and end up start-
       ing practically from scratch.
    
     >> I was also wondering how a network camera (on the ground, and not a 
     >> handheld) managed to get a perfectly clear overhead  shot of this
     >> FanMan flying in, on this way to the ring. Just happened to be 
     >> shooting some buildings, I suppose.  

        It would really help if you had your facts straight. It wasn't a net-
        work per se, it was the Family Channel blimp. You remember them. In 
        order to enlarge their audience base they changed their name from 
        the Christian Broadcast Network. Apparently, if your and Heiser's 
        conspiracy theories have any merit, Don King and Pat Robertson are 
        in cahoots with professed Christian, Evander Holyfield, doing their
        bidding. I bet if you boys put your heads together you could involve
        Vanna White, the CIA and the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.
    
    

    I remember quite recently that some fighters where scheduling fights
    with fighther X with a decent record, only too put a  no-name bum in
    the ring pretending to be fighter X so that they could get the ratings
    of fighting a decent fighter when they were actually fighting a bum.
    
    Even since Suger Ray Leanard got the decision over Marvin Hagler Ive
    been convinced Boxing is not legit. If Title had to swith hands by
    KnockOuts you would have 15rnd wars of death....
    
    I would watch a tyson fight if he gets back in the ring after
    his divorce from his cell mate...
    								MaB

Tommy you forgot to throw the JFK assasination conspiracy into that mix.
Sooooo disappointed.

The Crazy Met

  >> Was there something hidden in there unreported that should cause 
  >> me to actually lose respect for Holyfield?
    
     I think if you actually watch it, you'll come away feeling that
     it wasn't really that great a fight. Everyone is lauding praise 
     on Holyfield when if anything this fight was indicative of the
     mediocrity of the heavyweight division. It's no wonder there is
     so much clamor for Tyson. Sure, there was plenty of action but it 
     more decided on what each of the particpants could not do than what 
     they could. Bowe stood all night with that right hand cocked and 
     couldn't let it go and when he did he miss timed it badly even though 
     Holyfield left his jaw exposed all night long by holding his left too 
     low. Bowe banged Holyfield to the body in the first round and didn't 
     go back to the body until five rounds later. Bowe overall looked down-
     right lethargic until late in the fight. He rocked Holyfield with a 
     stiff jab but only used it sporadically. Holyfield still can't knock 
     out a  big heavyweight. He still has defensive lapses. He still doesn't 
     throw punches in bunches. I had hoped that Bowe would be the savior of 
     the heavyweight ranks but the way he approached this fight, the way
     he fought it and his comments afterwards show that he's just a clown.
     And Holyfield has heart but everyone who steps between those ropes 
     has heart no matter what his skill level. Don't believe the hype.

Boxing fixed?...nah....

I'm sure when those NBA guys are jawing at each other they are talking payoff. 
Boxers would never do that...

Every sport has 4 governing bodies that hand out titles like halloween candy. I
understand that the great sport of Chess is trying this method to boost revenue
as well.

I'm sure that all the other sports have close ties to organized crime and hold
their biggest playoff in Las Vegas because of the ambiance and not the quick
easy money to be made from taking a dive.

I heard that the Knicks pulled together a team out of the stands at the Garden
the other night when the Bullets refused to take their pre game drug tests. 

Did you also know that Don King is part of the expansion group trying to get a
football franchise in St Louis? He is one upstanding individual that Don King. 

I hear that the NFL is going to start keeping the score secret during it's
games and revealing it at the end. This should remove all doubt about the NFL
being fixed.

Metz

	Tommy, I was agreeing with you right up until:

>>	There's too much money for a guy like Riddick Bowe to make for 
>>	him to take a dive. 

	Now I didn't even see the fight so I don't know how well each of
	the pugalists did.  Therefore I'm not refering to this fight in
	particular when I say this, but to the boxing profession as a whole.

	There's TOO much money for a guy like Riddick Bowe to make for
	him NOT to take a dive.


	billl 

Did I say this fight was fixed? 


I didn't think so. I was just pointing out the colorful history of  boxing as a
"sport" and the many reasons why people have valid reasons when they shout
fixed at an exhibition of pugilism.

Would boxing fans get so upset at the mention of a fix unless it was a valid
soar point? Would boxing need to defend each and every fight if the tainted
past wasn't so visible? Wouldn't boxing, if it were a real sport, do something
about the countless shams so readily exposed to the public?

It's a "sport" whose time has gone by....If it weren't so laughable and hadn't
defrauded millions of people of their money I'd totally ignore it...

Metz


  

    
    I think the one disconnect here between the two points of view is that
    a fight can very definitely be fixed without the knowledge or consent
    of the two participants (in fact, it's preferable for obvious reasons).
    I don't think that there's any doubt whatsoever that this has been the 
    case with many ridiculous decisions in fights controlled by an
    individual governing body, like most recently the Chavez-Whitaker fight.  
    Which leads to the advice that I try to follow when viewing a fight
    (I am marginally interested in boxing): watch the fight for what it's
    worth as a sport and disregard the rest, including the final decision.
    I believe that the fighters themselves are on the up-and-up in 99% of
    the fights, so if you find some intrinsic beauty in the mano-a-mano
    sporting aspect of boxing, enjoy that much and forget about who 
    wins and loses.  That part of it has become too much a sham to get
    worked up about.
    
    Right now boxing's biggest shame is not the fix but in its
    right-up-front failure to pit two worthy (practically even breathing) 
    opponents against each other on even a semi-regular basis, in just 
    about all the weight divisions...
    
    glenn
       

>Would boxing fans get so upset at the mention of a fix unless it was a valid
>soar point? Would boxing need to defend each and every fight if the tainted
    
    soar/sore police!

Changing the topic slightly,

	What ever happened to Bobby Czyz (or however you spell his name).
	I haven't heard anything about him in a while.  Did he retire?


'Saw

re: .281

Yo' Karen you gonna let Tommy talk about you that way??

The Crazy Met

>    
>     He finally (and mercifully) retired. I saw him doing a bit some
>    analysis during a bout not too long ago. He wasn't too bad. 


I saw him fight on TV in a bar in the Bahamas one evening back in '91
but hadn't heard anything since....

It's nice when guys can retire and have enough on the ball to become
analysts.  Most of them suck, but every once in a while you get a good
one....


'Saw

>    
>    I love you Tommy.
>

That's only because you and Tommy like the same kind of music.....


8^)

JaKe threatening suicide, and a Karen-Tommy love in the same 24 hours. eggad!

The Crazy Met

>    It's even simpler than that. You have two people, Heiser and Gaulke,
>    who didn't watch the fight but still cry "fix" and then Metz, who is 
>    well on his way to being a 10 on the Tommy Brydie Obnoxious Scale (Karen 
>    Derry being a 1 and Tommy Brydie being a 10), and who also didn't watch 
    
    You forgot MAirBrooks and a few others that agreed with us.
    
    BTW - how far am I from being a 10 on that scale?

    
    Re:color men
    
    I think Sean O'Grady is a superb color man on the Tuesday nite fights
    on ESPN. 
    
    Ones I hate that cover boxing:
    
    1. Dan Dierdork, knows nothing but never shuts up.
    
    2. Jim Lampley (sp) Needs a haircut, again knows nothing.
    
    3. Larry Merchant, simply annoying.
    
    4. Alex Wallau, Some knowledge, needs to have a neck lift to go along  
       with the one he had on his face.
    
    5. Al Berstien, ESPN Very good, I really like his superbouts feature on
       those rainy Saturdays.
    
     
    Boxing is the one sport in the world where alot of pro athletes try to
    imitate it, I.E. the big 4. Few athletes are as conditioned and have
    the stamina and coordination skills as a pro fighter.
    
      

�    Boxing is the one sport in the world where alot of pro athletes try to
�    imitate it, I.E. the big 4. 
    
    Hockey is the only one doing a decent job at it.  The boxing attempts
    in the other 3 sports are rather silly.  You have the NBA's scalp
    massages, MLB's let's dance & glare, and the NFL's let me hit you in
    the helmet with my bare hand.
    
�Few athletes are as conditioned and have
�    the stamina and coordination skills as a pro fighter.
    
    I can imagine what JD would say if he were still here.  Probably
    something along the lines of "this from a guy who thinks motor racing
    is a sport".

    
    I wouldn't say Hockey is doing a decent job at it. It's a farce when
    others try to fight like a trained fighter. No comparison. Maybe they
    seem to fight because they actually throw punches at each other that
    sometimes connect. This does not make a boxer.
    
    
    Screw what JD thinks, He wouldn't last two laps throwing my CBR600F2
    around the tight circuits that I race on. And that's knowing that he
    was a runner and not knowing anything else about his physical
    traits/training. Lets not start that LDUC again, besides I offered him
    a chance to educate himself and he reluctantly declined, choosing his 
    closed minded beliefs.
    
     If any of you out there ever trained as a boxer you would know it's 
    one of the most grueling training regimens in the world of sports.
    
    

                         
    > If any of you out there ever trained as a boxer you would know it's 
    > one of the most grueling training regimens in the world of sports.
    
    That's if the fighter (and the powers in the sport) take it seriously
    (like Holyfield), of course.  There are varying degrees of "grueling
    training" in practice, but there's no denying that some of the stiffs 
    that get propped up in the ring (even in so-called championship fights) 
    adhere to no more a grueling training regimen than John Kruk sitting in 
    a Barcalounger doing 12-oz curls...
    
    glenn  

�     If any of you out there ever trained as a boxer you would know it's 
�    one of the most grueling training regimens in the world of sports.
    
    And if you don't believe it, just ask George Foreman.

    Wait a minute, Auto/Bike Racing is a sport, but athlete's.  I know a
    guy(kid) who races street bikes and he has about 1% muscle tone, does
    no physically workouts or any kind and has a GREAT RECORD.  Of course
    I've never seen him race, ive just seen his bike and heard his stories.
    
    He also has a pre Race Warmup Routine which to me doesnt seem like one
    an althlete would use (Although then again maybe they would).
    
    								MaB

    
    Just because someones not cut from stone does not mean that they 
    don't have stamina. Laugh at Big George but EH couln't put him away and
    the fight went a *FULL* 12 rounds. That either says alot for george or
    very little for EH. Equating conditioning and stamina to a ripped
    physique is akin to  Dec Marketing.
    
    

    
    
     What a bunch of horseshit!
    
      Even Micheal Keaton and Betty White can step into a ring and 
    duke it out.  
    
      Yeah, that Keaton, tr�s studly.  And Betty White? Don't let
    that Golden Girls character fool ya. She's at the top of her game.
    
    
    
      
     

All right...I'm a perfect 10....I'm a little disappointed that pointing out the
obvious can rate a 10 on the Brydie obnoxious scale though. I would have though
that only the really obnoxious intending types like 2 Live Crew, Dennis Leary,
Madonna  and Ross Perot would get the coveted 10 but I am honored....

Those boxers are in fine shape though...Just look at the stamina of George
Forman...able to eat all that food in one sitting..Big George hisself even said
that one of the reasons he works out is so that he can eat more...

And that ex-champion Buster Douglas....he was in superb condition for his title
defense wasn't he? 

For every Hollyfield, Hagler, Sugar Rim or Chavez out there there are 10 guys
calling themselves "boxers" that resemble the pillsbury doughboty in external
and internal consistancy. True you have to be in better shape than John Kruk to
continue to be at the head of your profession but I wouldn't hold up the whole
profession of Boxing as being an example of superb conditioning...

Metz

    
      >>  You fight (oops, I mean box) too?  Which is more grueling... boxing
      >>  or cycle racing?
    
          I never  Boxed in sanctioned events , only trained with and like
    boxers. This was years ago. I always found that there was someone
    bigger, tougher, better ring smarts, and most of all meaner. For my
    weight class (Welter/Middle) the competition is always top notch and
    never out of shape. Stepping between the ropes with these guys meant a
    good beating if you weren't prepared. This is true with sparring and
    'slipping' punches when working out. I really enjoyed watching a little
    guy wail on the new larger guy who thought that he could beat him
    because he was bigger. 
    
    Both are physical, but boxing is by far the toughest workout for the
    whole body.
    
    
      

Did I ever mention anything about weight classes? You read more inbetween the
lines than IggKnorr has excuses, Tom-tom...

See if you can follow this again and if you do you'll be well on the way toward
a perfect SAT  score for reading comprehension...

    >> For every Hollyfield, Hagler, Sugar Rim or Chavez out there there 
    >> are 10 guys calling themselves "boxers" that resemble the pillsbury 
    >> doughboy in external and internal consistancy. 
 

Sure most of the fat slobs out there are the heaveyweights but it doesn't make
the statement false does it?

I'm sure since you love boxing so much you must go see the locals fight or
watch the fights on USA or even go down to the local gym. Now tell me that
their aren't a bunch of doughboys out there that call themselves "boxers".


Metz

	Tommy, have you ever gone to Lowell to see the Golden Gloves?
	A friend, who recently moved away, used to go every year.  I think
	it was during January-February time frame.

	I've never seen a Golden Gloves tournament, but I understand it is
	considered by many to be the best "bang for the buck" in boxing.


	billl

    
>>       Wrong again, Bo Derek. 

	I'd say you called him 10...but hey that's HO....The way TCM and
        Jake have been carrying on Bo maybe a 7 in their NSHO's.......

 ;^)

    
     Kinda makes ya wonder that, even though the heavyweights are the
    "fat_slob_out_of_shape_cain't_hardly_walk", this is where the money is.
    
       Further extrapolationizing would result in the conclusion that
    the heavyweights are representative of the entire boxing sport.
    (follow the money. You won't see a pay per view when Carbajal fights.)
    
      So how is it that the "creme de la creme" of the sport are also
    the, well, the fattest? 
     
      What we see here is the direct similarity that the heavyweight boxer 
    is the equivalent of the baseball first baseman. Able to exceed at
    his sport, without regard for physical well being.

        
     
    
     

    My apologies, Roberto Duran is only a fat "non-heavyweight".  Super-
    middleweight or whatever other designation boxing has come up with to
    classify fat ex-welterweights.  Forget about the shape of the guys in 
    your local gym; boxing still regularly lets guys like Duran get in the 
    ring against all logic and reason, in sanctioned *championship* bouts, 
    no less.
    
    glenn
    

    
    
     >>Carbajal, who has a lot more heart than I once gave him credit
     >>for, had a pay-per-view event just one week before Bowe-Holyfield.
    
      Was that a national thang, or perhaps in his hometown maybe.
    
      I didn't see it advertised around here. (CO) 
    
     >> Yeah right. There's a lot of first basemen who look like Evander
     >> Holyfield or Mike Tyson or Frank Bruno and can box for tweleve
     >> rounds without breaking a sweat. Please.
     
    
      There's also a lot of heavyweights that look like John Kruk,
    Kirby Puckett and Cecil Feilder. (So they're not fisrt baseman)
    I'll give you Vegas type odds that the percentage of fat out of shape 
    professional heavyweights is magnitudes higher than that of 
    professional baseball players.
    
       Whaddya say?
    
    
    
          

What I'm dying to know is where they came up with the classification

	Cruiserweight.


Also, are boxers routinely tested for steroid use?


'Saw

    	Who cares if boxers are in shape?  I watch for the blood and the
    violence.  Like Jimmy Cannon said, "it's the red light district of
    sports".  You know what it is going in, and if you don't like it stay
    out.
    
    				/Don

    
    Yabbut what about summo wrestlers?
    
    Or pentathon athletes?
    
    

    Tommy's skeert to give me my rating.  Obviously I'm not a 10 or else he
    would've told me.  He's skeert to encourage my competitive nature that
    yearns for perfection.
    
    

    
    
    
            Well after rewatching the fight last night (HBO). Between
    scenes of The Wizard of OZ (My 6 yr olds favorite movie ya know!).
    
       I gotta reevaluate my opinion. I now think that Evander really did
    win the fight he was much more crisp and stole alot of rds. (Amazing
    what 9 less beers will do for ya.:-) )
    
           HBO had some much clearer shots of FAN MAN coming in towards the
    ring. He was lucky he landed on the ropes with that big canopy and the
    lights hanging over the Ring. He could have really hurt someone.
    
    
    Chappy

    Word is that the most (over?)hyped US Olympic champion since Mark 
   Breland, Oscar De La Hoya, is going to court to have his current 
   management contract torn up. Oscar apparently isn't too thrilled 
   about his new trainer. It would seem that given the number of en-
   dorsements Oscar has and the dough he's getting as an unproven 
   fighter fighting nobodies, Oscar ought to be kissing his managers' 
   feet if not an even less appealing part of their anatomies. His 
   managers' have up until now capitalized beautifully on Oscar's 
   ethnicity, good looks and well spoken manner. They may have rushed 
   him towards a title a bit too fast but he can't complain about the
   money he's making outside the ring which will include a now being cast 
   movie with Oscar in one of the starring roles. Obviously, Oscar didn't
   see what trying to start an acting career did for Tommy Morrison's 
   boxing career. Boxing is a full time job, Oscar, it's not a hobby.
   Frankly, at this point in his career Oscar hasn't shown anything to
   indicate that his career in the ring will not mirror that of Mark Breland
   rather than that of Sugar Ray Leonard. Breland was a much hyped fighter 
   who was pummeled on a few occasions by Hartford's own Marlon Starling
   and hasn't been heard from since. Sugar Ray, of course, is a future 
   Hall Of Famer. De La Hoya has a good set of mitts but has already been 
   knocked down once in his young career. He's 11-0 against a group of
   fighters hand picked to give him that record and he still has more 
   amateur than pro about his game. What's more is that this dispute with 
   a management team that has already made him rich can't help his nice 
   guy image with the sponsors and the public. Nor can cancelling out
   on a scheduled Thursday night bout in MSG help him with east coast
   boxing fans and writers not to mention the NY state athletic comm-
   ission. What Oscar needs are fights not disruptions if he wants to
   continue to improve and he sorely needs to do just that if he doesn't
   want to be just a flash in the pan - a distinct possibility.
    

    	Gee Tommy, too bad De La Hoya ain't fighting in New York, because I
    might've had a chance to increase my Christmas Cheer stash.
    
    				/Don

�The odds for this fight would have been beyond prohibitive.

	"Beyond Prohibitive" is the amount of beers you probably owe me now 
anyway...

				/Don

    
    Another pretty-boy ex Olympian that has shown me nothing, except good
    management that can make him some coin.
    
    When the air gets let out of his ballon, he'll sink fast and never be
    heard from again. 

    	Yeah but who's got the 5 beers in the bank Tommy?
    
    
    				Nostra/DONus

	Roberto Duran, in the 100th fight of his career, stopped 
        21-year-old Tony Menefee in the 8th round after scoring 2 
        knockdowns and forcing him to take a standing 8-count in
	the bout at Casino Magic in Bay St. Louis, Miss.

    
         This fight really was an embarassment for boxing. If this 
         kid didn't take a dive last night then he fights just like 
         he is. The first time he went down the punch barely grazed 
         him and he fell like he'd been shot. The last time he went 
         down he looked like he was a clown in Ringling Brothers' 
         Circus doing a pratfall. The referree looked pretty damned 
         stupid, too when he waved the fighters on and then at Duran's 
         insistence changed his mind and stopped it. Of course, Menefee 
         didn't protest too vehemently perhaps he was late for acting 
         classes. Goodness knows he needs them.
    

    It was pretty bad when the fighter says "I want the fight stopped so
    I don't have to hit him" and the ref says "Duh ok..."...
    

When I saw the report on Duran before the fight (forget where it was, perhaps
ESPN) they said his opponent was basically a fall guy, who should get
Duran a fight against Vinny Paz....

Guess ol' "No Mas, No Mas" got what he wanted....

'Saw

    
    
    	Yabbut Tommy, yup!
    
    Kid has a 7" reach advantage, says he's gonna dance and jab and then
    tried to bix inside with "The Hands of Stone".  IMO, the firsted
    "fall" *could* have been a slip coupled with the off-side glancing
    blow.  Second shot shows the kid either has a glass jaw or he took a
    dive but on replay, his legs looked real wobbly.  Had the fight
    continued, he could have been hurt real bad.  Of course, I may have
    been duped by his acting job........
    
    If this 21 year old grew up in boxing and has been boxing since the age
    of 4, I didn't see much to impress me.  Maybe it was shadow boxing?
    
    I remain,
    liking my honker as it is, thank you
    Kev
    

    
     Who won the Padilla-Oliveira WBO Jr. Welterwieght champeenship fight
    last night?
    
     Did they go over the 2400 punch mark?
    
     I turned it off in 8th round.
    
    

    
    
    	Yabbut and in other action, Woostah's own Sean Fitzgerald losted
    again.  I think it was a decision and the fight might have been held
    in Ledyard.
    

    did I hear that pay-per-view boxing show is coming up this Saturday
    night?  The fellow that beat Norris is fighting.
    
    Is that Superbowl Sat. nite?  How does this four bouts look?

    >What is the laste Tyson proposal?
    
    If he admits guilt, they'll redo his sentence to time already served
    and let him free.  I just can't believe guilt is now a prerequisite for
    freedom.

    The Tyson deal was denied by both sides.  Doesn't mean it won't
    happen though.
    
    Mike
    

�    If he admits guilt, they'll redo his sentence to time already served
�    and let him free.  I just can't believe guilt is now a prerequisite for
�    freedom.
    
    I heard about this alleged proposal a week or so ago.  It was
    vehemently denied by both sides that anything like this was in the
    works.

 The way I heard it was that if Tyson will admit he is guilty and drop his
 appeal they'll let him off with time served and good behavior.

 don't do it Mike, she railroaded you....

re: .338

the voice of reason chimes in :-)

The Crazy Met

    Still looking for info on that ppv coming up ...

    What kind of info are you looking for, bill?  I heard an ad for it on
    the radio yesterday.  Chavez is on the bill.

    Mac,
    	Is it this saturday night?
    
    	Any fights look like they may be worth watching?
    
    	I know the guy who beat Norris is fighting
    
    b

    I'm pretty sure it is, bill.  I don't really follow boxing so I can'
    comment on the quality (or even remember most of the names involved) of
    the fights.  Tommy's your man, but it seems as if he isn't around
    today.
    
    Chavez was the one name I remember, and I remember the add mentioning
    somebody who beat Norris.

    
    Chavez was beaten by Frankie Randall on Saturday. Also Tommy Hearns
    scored a 1st round k.o in his first Cruiserweight bout. 
    
    Tony
    
    ps who won out of Camacho & Trinidad.
    
    

>    ps who won out of Camacho & Trinidad.

Tony, 

I don't have the details, but WFAN reported that they both won.


'Saw
    
    

Trindad beat Camacho in a one sided decision....

    Chavez is cryin' that referee Steele took away points for low blows
    and cost him da match. Anyone see it?
    
    MikeL
    

Duh, I thought Trinidad and Camacho were separate fights.  Guess I should
have been listening instead of talking with my brother during the 20-20
Sports....

    
    I understand that Chavez was beaten fairly, despite the split verdict.
    He is/was a ferocious body puncher and must expect to have points
    deducted for low blows now and again. He can't really call Richard
    Steele a cheat either, remember the Taylor fight?!?
    
    I hope that we see a rematch soon.
    
    Tony
    
    

    
    Hahahahahaha.  One of boxing's biggest promoters, handler of the
    heavyweight champeen of the world: "This is not a joke.  We are 100%
    serious."  Maybe we can get some boxing apologists to defend this, and
    Michael Jordan's right to participate, too:
     
	NEW YORK (AP) -- Michael Jordan is concentrating on hitting these
days. Baseballs, not punching bags.
	Jordan said he's not interested in boxing promoter Dan Duva's
offer of $15 million to fight the Evander Holyfield-Michael Moorer
winner for the world heavyweight title.
	The former Chicago Bulls superstar is trying to make a second
career in baseball, taking batting cage swings with the Chicago
White Sox in Sarasota, Fla.
	When told of Duva's offer, presented to his agent David Falk in
a letter, Jordan laughed it off.
	``Yeah, where are my gloves?'' Jordan asked. ``I wouldn't fight
those guys if I had a gun in my hand. No way. That's crazy.''
	But Duva said the proposal was on the level.
	``This offer is not a joke. We are 100 percent serious,'' Duva
said. ``It seems that Mr. Jordan loves the challenge of proving he
is the best, regardless of the sport. ... I would like to offer
Michael the ultimate individual sport challenge, an opportunity to
fight for the heavyweight championship of the world.''
	``While this idea might seem crazy, remember, in the sixties
Muhammad Ali and Wilt Chamberlain were close to finalizing
arrangements for Wilt to challenge Ali for the world heavyweight
championship. The deal fell apart when Ali (not Wilt) backed out,''
Duva said.
	Duva said the proposed bout would take place this November in
Las Vegas. Along with a guaranteed $15 million, Duva said Jordan
could negotiate for a percentage of the gross revenue which, the
promoter claimed, could be worth a over $25 million.
	Duva is Holyfield's promoter. Holyfield and Moorer will fight
April 22 in Las Vegas for the IBF and WBA title belts.
	Holyfield, in Detroit on a promotional tour for the fight,
kidded Jordan.
	``I don't want to beat up Michael Jordan because I like him.
Frankly, I'd rather fight Shaq (Shaquille O'Neal),'' Holyfield
said.
	Jordan, 6-foot-6 and about 200 pounds, did not get into many
scuffles in his NBA career. But he was suspended for one game and
fined $10,000 after a fight with Indiana's Reggie Miller last
February.
        

    Tommy, did you see the Carbajal-Gonzalez rematch?  Sounds to me like
    Carbajal was robbed too.  2 of the 3 judges scored Gonzalez a few
    points more than Carbajal, but the ringside media judges had scored a
    split decision.  I can't believe they didn't stop the fight with the
    bloody mess Gonzalez had all over his face.  

	Well Glenn, here's my take in all this.  Duva is looking for a 
tomato can that Holyfield can knock out and still make a bundle of cash.  
When Jordan was a basketball player Duva was probably afraid that, with his 
athletic skills, Mike could land a lucky punch and stop the gravy train for 
his champ.  But once Duva saw that Jordan's skills had deteriorated to the 
point that he was taking up baseball, he knew it was going to be cream puff 
city.

				/Don

> When Jordan was a basketball player Duva was probably afraid that, with his 
> athletic skills, Mike could land a lucky punch and stop the gravy train for 
> his champ.  But once Duva saw that Jordan's skills had deteriorated to the 
> point that he was taking up baseball, he knew it was going to be cream puff 
> city.
    
    Now if we could only convince Michael the managers and fans in both 
    sports would be happy... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    
    >>As probably the biggest boxing fan in here, I think it's stupid
    
    Yeah, I think boxing is STUPID, too!!!
    
    JaKe
    

    
    Michael "Second To" Nunn was beaten on Saturday night in the U.K by
    Steve Littles on a split decision. 
    
    That'll teach the smug git!
    
    Tony
    
    

Nunn looked shockingly poor. I hate to think what a real boxer like Chris Eubank
would have done to him, but I doubt it would have been pretty.

mike

    
    	Geezus, the SUBURBIANS have made it into ::sports...
    
Claybone

    
     Nunn looked like he hadn't properly warmed up. He definitely suffered
    from not having Angelo Dundee there. It's just as well because Nunn's
    Howard Davis imitation is as boring as all get out. 
    
     The Brits had their problems too, though. Henry Wharton took four
    rounds to do anything more than strike a classic boxers pose. If he
    landed five punches in those first four rounds, I'd be surprised.
    And Nigel Benn has a good set of mitts and he slips punches well,
    but his supect chin showed itself again when he went down and was
    in real trouble from a relatively weak left hook. Benn also doesn't
    take advantage of his hand speed by throwing combos. He threw one 
    punch and then stood there as if gauging its effect or he'd throw
    one punch and clinch. No way Wharton should have been able to go the
    distance. It pretty much solves any mystery there might have been
    as to why Benn doesn't fight in the States. He'd get his ass kicked.

re: -1

Agreed, and to think I almost paid to go and watch it. Thank goodness all the
tickets had been sold.

Eubank and Toney are now a street ahead of everyone else in the division. Either
one would have put Wharton down after five, if not sooner. When does Toney fight
next?

mike

    
    When Benn last fought in the U.S he won six straight. To answer Mikes
    statement, Benn fought (and in 99% of observers opinion) beat Eubank
    last time out, despite the draw that was announced.
    
    Toney, when focused and when motivated, is world class. Sadly for him,
    he has a touch of the Riddick Bowes. By that I mean his eating habits
    are becoming more important than his training habits. I don't think he
    will be fighting at super-middle again.
    
    Wharton is very, very one-dimensional and slow. But to say he would
    have put away in five by Eubanks or Toney is ludicrous. Neither guy
    would have bothered to extend themselves beyond a points victory. They
    are both to lazy to up their work-rates.
    
    Tony
    
    ps BTW, Steve Littles is a native of Reading, England. My brother
    claims to have known him when he was younger!
    
    

    
    I thought that Barkley only ever won world titles at middleweight????
    Didn't he beat Hearns and Duran at middleweight??
    
    Tony
    
    

    
    I think if he returned to the middleweight ranks, as he most probably
    could, he would give McClellan, Jackson or Jones a good run for their
    money. I do think however, the supermiddleweights are currently not the
    strongest division around. The Nunn result proved that.
    
    If the unification series comes off, it would now include Benn,
    Littles, Toney & Eubank. Littles is mediocre and Toney struggles to
    make the weight. Where are the serious supermiddleweight challangers??
    
    Tony
    
    ps I'm sure the Barkley/Hearns fightwas at 147!!!
    
    

Former champ Frank Bruno was doing sports for Imus this morning.

I thought he was extremely witty, in that nifty sort of way the British
are, and he had me laughing pretty hard....

Especially when he talked about the Holmes fight last night....


'Saw

Saw, that's not really Frank Bruno.  Not anymore than it's the real
Dick Nixon doing commentary.  

Ken

>Saw, that's not really Frank Bruno.  Not anymore than it's the real
>Dick Nixon doing commentary.  
>
>Ken

The folks who come in to do sports are real.  That much I know.   He's
had lots of different people doing the sports news.

Now, the commentaries, you are right, are recording.  Rob Bartlett
does Nixon and Cronkite, and I think also Mike Tyson, along with the
current Frank Sinatra song.   The other fellow, (the rock DJ, can't
remember his name off the top of my head) does some of the other
pre-recorded things that he does.

But the guest sportscasters who fill in for Breen are live. They've
had Lesley Visser, Boomer Esiason, Phil Simms, Kathleen Sullivan to 
name a few.....


'Saw

    Howard Stern really did hav e Lennox Lewis as his guest this morning.
    Any truth to Riddick Bowe ballooning to over 300 pounds?

    
    That wouldn't be that surprising. Bowe is naturally about 238/240, so a
    guy who's got a touch of George Foremans when it comes to his diet can
    put on 60lb in no time. The problem is, as shown with Holyfield II, is
    taking it off again.
    
    Tony
    
    

    I thought they were supposed to have the guy who gets kicked off all
    the other shows doing sports this morning.
    
    Rock Newman was on with Salzberg today.  He says Rowe's learned his
    lesson and is ready to go kick some butt.  Didn't hear anything about
    the weight though.

>    I thought they were supposed to have the guy who gets kicked off all
>    the other shows doing sports this morning.
    
Eli?

Nah, they said he can "talk the talk" but when it came down to it he
couldn't "walk the walk"......


'Saw

    
    
    Frank "I've only ever been beat by world champions, four of them
    admittedly" Bruno has been offered a fight with George Foreman in
    London.
    
    Tony
    
    

Tony, I thought George was going to retire..... I must've heard that
wrong.....8^)

    
    This was `announced' by Mickey Duff on UK TV on Wednesday after a very
    boring Bruno wipeout of Jesse Ferguson. It could well be Duff bull****,
    but it was mentioned in the next days papers.
    
    If Foreman fought Bruno in London, it would be worth mega �����.
    
    Tony
    
    

>      It would figure to be a real festival of footwork wouldn't
>     it, Tony? 

They might have to reinforce the flooring I'd think.....

    
    To make way for more seats the ring has been cut to 2 foot by 2 foot.
    They figured the boxers wouldn't notice.
    
    Tony
    
    ps Did anyone see Herbie Hide KO Tommy Morrisons one round slayer
    Michael Bentt?? Bentt was pretty poor.
    
    

    
    I see there is massive interest in Friday's heavyweight title fight
    between Holyfield & Moorer.
    
    I suppose that just serves as prove that the world recognises the great
    Lennox Lewis as the *real* champ.
    
    Tony
    
     

>    I suppose that just serves as prove that the world recognises the great
>    Lennox Lewis as the *real* champ.
    
My dead grandmother can fight better than Lewis....8^)    
     

    I think a motivated Bowe could kick any of their butts...
    

	Could be the $39.95 PPV price.

>    I think a motivated Bowe could kick any of their butts...

I agree with you Tommy.  If Riddick hadn't come into that last fight so
heavy, and out of shape, he would have had Evander for lunch.

Lennox couldn't carry Evander's jock, let alone Riddick's....


And, like I said Friday night, I tend to enjoy watching the lighter weight
classes fight.  Their hand speed is awesome, and they tend to box more,
as opposed to a lot of the sluggers in the heavyweight division.....


'Saw
    

    Uh, I know we all look alike and all that, but my name's Walt...
    (smiley goes here)...
    

>    Uh, I know we all look alike and all that, but my name's Walt...
>    (smiley goes here)...


Uh, duh....

Okay, I screwed up.  I guess I looked at it quick, and assumed that it was
Tommy writing it.   You might not all look alike, but your writing all
looks alike on my workstation....8^)


Sign me

STOOOOPID_'Saw    

    Thanks for the setup, it was too good to pass up...
    

>
>    Thanks for the setup, it was too good to pass up...
<    

No problemo, Tomm, uh, er, Walt.  I never have a problem setting my
friends up.....


'Saw

    So tell me more about Ms. Peanut Butter Cookie then.... haha...
    

>    So tell me more about Ms. Peanut Butter Cookie then.... haha...

She'd eat you alive - I know this first hand because I've been through
that opening scene of Jaws with her myself.......   WHOMP, and a laig is
gone....
  
She's a tough cookie herself, but that's what makes her so intriguing.  
I'm still shooting for a home cooked dinner though, to see how the cookin'
tastes, but all things in time as they say....

I'm always keeping my eyes open for you though, dude....
    

    
    Mr Way, you know zip about boxing. Lewis is unbeaten. He kicked
    Riddickulus's arse in 2 rounds in the Olympics. He knocked Razor
    Ruddock senseless in just over a round. He is the only man to ever deck
    Tony Tucker (twice), and that includes a prime-time Tyson. He has the
    best jab, the best overhand right and best upper-body movement in the
    whole division.
    
    He has yet to reach his potential, *always* comes in in terrific shape
    (as all good champs do) and is taking on live contenders in Phil
    Jackson & Oliver McCall. 
    
    The *only* heavyweights that matter are Holyfield and Lewis and the
    only fight that matters is between the two.
    
    For what it's worth, if their unification bout comes off. I'll be over
    to cheer Lennox on, and I'll buy you a beer.
    
    Tony
    
    

	Don't feel too bad, 'Saw.  JaKe made the same mistake introducing
	Denise to Tommy.  Course it had zip to do with the fact that we were
	the first warm bodies to open the Rat that morning.


	billl

>    
>    Mr Way, you know zip about boxing. Lewis is unbeaten. He kicked
>    Riddickulus's arse in 2 rounds in the Olympics. He knocked Razor
>    Ruddock senseless in just over a round. He is the only man to ever deck
>    Tony Tucker (twice), and that includes a prime-time Tyson. He has the
>    best jab, the best overhand right and best upper-body movement in the
>    whole division.

The Olympics don't mean squat.  Boxing in the Olympics is as rigged
as figure skating is....

    
    
>    The *only* heavyweights that matter are Holyfield and Lewis and the
>    only fight that matters is between the two.

Yeah, Holyfield should have a good fight against this guy on Friday night.
There's not more excitement, as someone stated before, because of the
hefty PPV price tag.

    
>    For what it's worth, if their unification bout comes off. I'll be over
>    to cheer Lennox on, and I'll buy you a beer.
    
Well, Tony, you're always welcome to buy me a beer.  We'll go to a good
place, where they microbrew the beer, so that it's decent stuff.  And
after you buy me one, I'll buy you one.....


cheers!
'Saw    
    

    
    I really hope Lewis/Holyfield happens. However, early `95 will do me.
    That way I'll have the necessary dosh.
    
    Tony
    
    ps I'll see if I can convince Dave Wilson to put his hand in his pocket
    as well.
    
    

    	Lewis is a big wuss.  Maybe he can coax a fight out of Foreman
    or Holmes so he looks like the tough guy some claim he is.  Course
    I wouldn't be surprised if one of the 40Somethings knocked Lewis
    out.
    
    				  /Don

    Carbajal and Majerle fought to a draw.  Carbajal came back in beat
    Barkley in the next fight.

    
    Your name is added to the `Rub it in when it happens' list. If Lewis is
    a big wuss, then what does that make fatty Bowe. That ponce got his
    butt kicked in a so-called meaningless Olympic fight by Lewis and has
    since been climbing to the top of the nearest tree at even the mention
    of Lewis's name.
    
    Tony
    
    

             <<< REPAIR::DISK$USERS:[NOTES$LIBRARY]BOXING.NOTE;1 >>>
                                  -< BOXING >-
================================================================================
Note 324.6             Evander Holyfield v Micheal Moorer.               6 of 15
MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!"            17 lines  13-APR-1994 18:58
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
      This figures to be a good one. Moorer's got as good a set of 
     mitts as anyone in the division and Holyfield doesn't know the
     meaning of the word quit (as opposed to Ray Mercer who doesn't
     the meaning of most of the words in the English language but that's
     another story). For my money, Holyfield really isn't a good enough
     heavy to even have the title. If Bowe had any self-discipline he
     would have been able to blast Holyfield last time out. But Holyfield
     trains hard and comes to do serious battle and that was what carried
     him against Bowe. Moorer, on the other hand, runs hot and cold. Some
     days he comes to fight and other days he'd rather be fishing. His
     training is equally sporadic but supposedly he's worked hard for this
     one. Holyfield's obvious assets are his chin and his heart. Moorer has 
     the solid punch. When a blown up light-heavy with a punch but a suspect
     chin meets a blown up light-heavy with a chin but a suspect punch, who 
     wins? Moorer, the guy with the punch. Holyfield can't have but so many
     wars in him. 
    

    
    Moorer is an excellent betting proposition here in the U.K. For me, it
    he's going to win, he's going to win early. Therefore the odds offered,
    50/1 1st round, 40/1 2nd, 33/1 3rd & 33/1 4th are a good risk.
    
    Although I want Commander Evander to win (for Lewis reasons!), I
    couldn't resist an interest.
    
    Tony
    
    

�    Your name is added to the `Rub it in when it happens' list. If Lewis is

	When I think of Lennox, a Winston Churchill paraphrase comes to 
mind...	 "Never has been so much made of so little by so many".

				/Don

Article: 17624
From: [email protected] (Reuters)
Newsgroups: clari.local.nevada,clari.sports.misc
Subject: Holyfield/Moorer tale of the tape
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 94 18:30:03 PDT
 
	 LAS VEGAS (Reuter) - Tale of the tape after the weigh-in
Wednesday for Friday's heavyweight title fight between World
Boxing Association and International Boxing Federation champion
Evander Holyfield and challenger Michael Moorer:
	
	                     TALE OF THE TAPE
	
	 EVANDER HOLYFIELD                            MICHAEL MOORER
	
	 31                           AGE             26
	 214                         WEIGHT           214       
	 6'2''                        HEIGHT           6'2''        
	 77 1/2''                     REACH            78''         
	 43''                     CHEST (normal)       42 1/2''        
	 45''                    CHEST (expanded)      44''            
	 16''                         BICEPS           17''       
	 12 1/2''                     FOREARMS         14''       
	 32''                         WAIST            34''       
	 32''                         THIGH            26 1/2''       
	 13''                         CALF             17''       
	 19 1/2''                     NECK             20''       
	 7 1/2''                      WRIST            8''        
	 12 1/2''                     FIST             12''       

    
    Are you guys going to tell me now that Moorer would beat Lewis??
    Holyfield was sad and Moorer is nothing. Bowe is walking around at
    336lb & Tyson is dropping the soap in the showers.
    
    Lewis is numero uno whether you like him or not.
    
    Tony
    
    

 Wasn't a bad fight. Certainly not one of the best I've ever watched. I
 think the decision could have gone either way. Interesting thing is
 that without Don King involved the challenger actually got a fair shake.
 If King had been the promoter and in Evander's corner, he'd still be
 the champ today. One only has to refer to injustice done to Sweetpea
 to know where I'm coming from.....

 Best part of the fight was Teddy Atlas lashing Moorer....

 mike

I don't care how good Moorer is, for the moment a lefty has won the
Championship, and that makes all of us lefties happy.

As to Lewis, he's a pansy.  He'd never handle a Bowe who was up for the
fight.   And further, I bet a Mike Tyson, fresh outta the pen, would 
clean Lenny's clock....


'Saw

    
   >> Lewis is numero uno whether you like him or not.
    
      Lewis isn't a "pansy" or a "wuss" but whether he's "numero
      uno" remains to be seen. He is, after all, the guy that was
      in very very very serious trouble against perennial championship
      whipping boy, Frank Bruno. Lewis' skills have progressed with 
      glacier-like speed and Lewis the champ is hardly discernible
      from Lewis the amateur. Would he beat Moorer? If, as has been 
      rumored, Emmanuel Steward becomes his trainer then probably.
      Steward could make a very good and possibly great fighter
      out of Lennox. Lewis has more raw talent than anybody in the 
      division and the size to go with it. But if the Lewis that 
      fought Bruno and was reeling and rocking like a drunken sailor
      and getting bum advice from Pepe Correia comes to fight Moorer,
      he won't be as lucky as when he fought Bruno.
 

>      Lewis isn't a "pansy" or a "wuss" but whether he's "numero

I know THAT.  I say that just to get Tony's goat....8^)


>      in very very very serious trouble against perennial championship
>      whipping boy, Frank Bruno. Lewis' skills have progressed with 
>      glacier-like speed and Lewis the champ is hardly discernible

This I know too.


'Saw 

    
    What do you guys think of Phil Jackson? Do you think he will pose
    Lennox many problems? Is he a legitimate challenger??
    
    Tony
    
    

    He's done a heck of a job coaching the Bulls this season without
    Michael Jordan, and at 6-8, he'll have quite a reach advantage over
    Lewis.  Don't know if he's in prime shape for this fight, though.
    
    NAZZ

    
    Oh I see, so he hasn't got a hoop in hell. Although he maybe looking
    for a couple of three pointers! 
    
    Ho ho etc
    
    Tony
    
    

    
  > What do you guys think of Phil Jackson? Do you think he will pose
  > Lennox many problems? Is he a legitimate challenger??
   
    I haven't seen that much of him, Tony. There are few things more boring
    than watching second-tier heavyweights toil. I suspect that Lewis will
    be able to get by on sheer talent. The real question is, will Moorer
    meet Lewis in the fall now that Holyfield has been dispatched or will
    Michael take the usual route and sign for a couple of easy paydays?
    I suspect the latter.
        
    
    

 fortunately USA Today printed Teddy's pyshce job on Moorer after the
 8th round:

	" Do you want me to fight, huh, do ya? Do you want me to change
 places with ya - do ya? Listen this guy is finished. There comes a time
 in a man's life when he makes a decision - makes a decision to just live
 survive. Or he wants to win. You're doing just enough to keep him off ya
 and hope he leaves you alone. You're lying to yourself, but tomorrow 
 you're going to be crying! You're lying to yourself and I'd be lying to
 you if I let you get away with that! You're going to cry tomorrow because
 of this! Do you want to cry tomorrow - do ya? Then don't lie to yourself,
 there's something wrong with this guy. Back him up and fight a full
 round. And after the right hook, throw the left uppercut."

 the guy was priceless...

 another gem I forget which round:

 "He's done, he washed up he'll loose his next fight and that'll be a shame
 cause it should been this one."

 mike

>	" Do you want me to fight, huh, do ya? Do you want me to change
> places with ya - do ya? Listen this guy is finished. There comes a time
> in a man's life when he makes a decision - makes a decision to just live
> survive. Or he wants to win. You're doing just enough to keep him off ya
> and hope he leaves you alone. You're lying to yourself, but tomorrow 
> you're going to be crying! You're lying to yourself and I'd be lying to
> you if I let you get away with that! You're going to cry tomorrow because
> of this! Do you want to cry tomorrow - do ya? Then don't lie to yourself,
> there's something wrong with this guy. Back him up and fight a full
> round. And after the right hook, throw the left uppercut."

I'm gonna print this out and put it up on my wall.  That is one inspirational
speech....


'Saw

    	...and over in Holyfield's corner, did Turner ever say anything
    other than "Jesus is with you."?  If this is indeed the case then
    Moorer is one heck of a fighter because even Jesus couldn't stop
    his left hand jab.
    
    				  /Don

    
    Turner was right, Evander kept turnin' the other cheek....
    
    BTW Slash, ain't it Singapore, not Manila?
    
    MikeL
    

    Holyfield has announced his retirement due to a heart condition.

    
    >>Holyfield has announced his retirement due to a heart condition.
    
    What, "lack of" concerning fighting???
    
    JaKe
    

>    >>Holyfield has announced his retirement due to a heart condition.
    
I'll bet he's gonna be our next CEO......

    No Jake, this is a physical ailment, not a mental one.  He's been in
    the hospital in Atlanta since the fight for tests.

    
    >>No Jake, this is a physical ailment, not a mental one.  He's been in
    >>the hospital in Atlanta since the fight for tests.
    
    But most of that time he's been studying fer his urine and blood
    tests...oops...sorry, I was thinking of Mike "Lady's Man" Tyson.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    Holyfield suffered a partial heart failure in round 2 of Fridays fight.
    A blocked left ventrical meant that insufficient oxygen was getting to
    his muscle and body tissue.
    
    Doctors say it's an absolute miracle that he was able to carry on
    whilst he was suffering from a heart failure.
    
    But as stated, it may be dodgy now, but Holyfield is without doubt the
    bravest heavyweight champion there has ever been. The man wasn't big
    enough, didn't have the speed, didn't have the style, didn't have the
    defence but still made to the pinnacle of his sport. 
    
    After a long period of ill-discipline in the heavyweight division
    Holyfield showed that hard-work, belief and determination go a long,
    long way to off-set a lack of god-given gifts.
    
    Happy retirement Commander Evander.
    
    Tony
    
     

>    Holyfield suffered a partial heart failure in round 2 of Fridays fight.
>    A blocked left ventrical meant that insufficient oxygen was getting to
>    his muscle and body tissue.
>    
>    Doctors say it's an absolute miracle that he was able to carry on
>    whilst he was suffering from a heart failure.

Considering the recent tragedies with Reggie Lewis and that fellow
from Loyola, it's a miracle we didn't have a 3rd heart-related sports
death.


'Saw
     

    
    By the way, the doctor stressed it was in *no* way connected to boxing
    or to Holyfields punishing training regime. It seems it was just one of
    dem fings.
    
    Tony
    
     

Lucky that they know about it before it really hurt him in the ring.....

Article: 708
From: [email protected] (Reuter/John Phillips)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.misc,clari.local.new_jersey,clari.sports.features
Subject: Boxing-Lewis' Camp Chases Jackson from his Own Workout
Date: Tue, 3 May 94 18:00:03 PDT
 
	 ATLANTIC CITY, N.J. (Reuter) - As a 15-1 favorite to lightly
regarded Phil Jackson this Friday, it wouldn't seem that World
Boxing Council (WBC) champion Lennox Lewis needs much more of an
edge, but his camp still tried to rattle the challenger Tuesday.
	 It began when Jackson (30-1) did not arrive for his allotted
12-2 p.m. workout in the ring until about 1:15.
	 Lewis, who had been waiting his turn, noticed Jackson was
not using the big ballroom and decided to get an early start on
his workout.
	 But when the Jackson and his crew finally appeared to claim
their remaining time, Lewis and company refused to leave the
room.
	 Then it was a scene out of a Three Stooges movie, as
cornermen -- in less than great physical condition -- from both
camps climbed into the ring and traded insults like street kids
arguing over who claimed the ballfield first.
	 Jackson's publicist, Dave Metzger, on the far side of 60
tried to climb into the ring using a table as a step-stool, but
it collapsed under him. He then went into the ring by the steps
and he and Lewis' trainer Pepe Correa and a handful of others
milled around yelling at each other.
	 ``Get out, get out!'' shouted Metzger.
	 Correa, with his team around him, refused to budge and
said: ``How're you gonna train now? You'll have a helluva time
moving around. Let's see you put me out of it. We'll knock you
all out.''
	  Correa had a few more things to say which included some
expletives and a reference to Jackson, 29, having ``a canvass
back.''
	 Jackson, as he is expected to do on Friday in their
scheduled 12-round fight, folded without saying much and went to
another ballroom where he hit pads and jumped rope on a carpet
rather than on a proper floor.
	 After the incident, Correa acknowledged that Jackson was
entitled to use the ring but said: ``Right or wrong, we were
going to stay.''
	 And Lewis (24-0) said: ``I think he knows whose ring this is
and the guy who's house it is.''
	 Lewis said he was very disappointed when Evander Holyfield
lost his World Boxing Association and International Boxing
Federation titles to Michael Moorer on April 22. Lewis said he
was looking forward to fighting Holyfield in September, as
agreed, to re-unify the titles.
	 It was clear that Lewis, 28, does not have great respect for
Moorer, whom he called beatable.
	 Moorer ``comes across to me as a guy who just basically
wants to make money ... I can't really figure him out.
	 ``He said that he needs to go out and rest and think for a
while and maybe after he's been thinking he'll realise that I'm
the man out there and after he's not getting the respect from
the people he'll realise that if he wants to gain respect he's
gonna have to fight me.''
	 Lewis, handed the WBC belt two years ago when then champion
Riddick Bowe gave it up rather than defend his titles against
the Briton first, said he did not think that Moorer ``will be
around long'' as a champion.
	 Lewis and his corner derided the 26-year-old Moorer for not
being able to stop Holyfield, who, after losing a 12-round
decision to Moorer, was found to have had heart problems and has
retired.
	  ``Holyfield said, 'take the fight because I'm not feeling
well,''' Lewis said. ``Michael Moorer said 'I don't want it.'
Moorer's trainer says 'take it or you'll cry tomorrow.'''
	  Lewis said: ``All I want is the opportunity to hit him.''

    If by some chance boxing was still above the WWF, this weekend's
    Chavez-Randall fight just changed that.  

>    If by some chance boxing was still above the WWF, this weekend's
>    Chavez-Randall fight just changed that.  

What happened.

PPV was making a big deal out of four huge championship rematch fights,
but my sports page had nothing on Sunday morning.....


'Saw

    Christmas came early for Chavez.  I'm surprised anyone still deals with
    Don King, he's a crook.  If Chavez loses, he's history.  Since he won,
    he (and King) get at least 2 more paychecks.

>    Christmas came early for Chavez.  I'm surprised anyone still deals with
>    Don King, he's a crook.  If Chavez loses, he's history.  Since he won,
>    he (and King) get at least 2 more paychecks.

Oh.  I thought he was washed up.....

    Any chance of me thinking of ordering a PPV fight has gone out the
    window the last couple of weeks...
    

>
>    Any chance of me thinking of ordering a PPV fight has gone out the
>    window the last couple of weeks...
>    

They want too damned much to watch PPV events like that.  I'd pay $12
or so, but $30 is outrageous.

I equate PPV with a concert like at the Sting or Toad's Place, which
normally range between 12-15 dollars.  No TV coverage of something like
that is worth 30 bucks.

JMHO,
'Saw

PPV is alright if'n there's something to watch and you can get a group to
go in on it.

This wasn't one of those, failing to meet the first criterion.

TTom

    they should discount PPV based on the kickbacks Don King & Co. get.

 You know it's bad when your sister tells ya Frankie Randall got screwed.
 I remember before King, Arum Duva et al, I wouldn't miss a fight. We use 
 to always get together on saturdays to watch the fights. We used to go to
 every close circut event. Not anymore. I'll watch them at home if I'm
 not doing anything else......

 mike

Very eloquent reply Tommy.  And all of it true.

It used to be a pleasure to sit down and watch a fight, especially
the lighter weight divisions.   

Now, everything seems so crooked, with the most shady characters
imaginable running the show.....

Sad....


'Saw

	I wonder how many people will suscribe to showtime for the month.
They claim they have on tape, the ring doctor asking Chavez if he wanted
to continue. Chavez's reply was NO, by WBC rules he forfeited the fight.
The fight should have never went to the cards after the head butt.

Ron

    	Hey, but it was fun to see Simon Brown get the snot knocked out
    of him then claim the fight never should've been stopped.
    
    				/Don

    Lennox Lewis is sacrificing 1M pounds to fight his next fight in London
    instead of Los Wages.  His reasons are because of the recent Michael
    Moore and Julio Cesar Chavez fiascos.

    
    The Chavez fight was a major factor. I also heard that one of the
    scores on the Lewis/Tucker fight was a bit iffy so Frank Maloney
    has decided a DonKing promotion in Las Vegas was to dodgy. Also,
    Lewis/McCall won't be a MASSIVE draw in the states, whereas Lewis is
    gauranteed a 20,000+ live gate here in the U.K.
    
    Tony
    
     

    
    I see old Big Fatty Bowe has pulled out of another comeback fight.
    Apparently KFC have got a "Eat All You Can for $10" night. 
    
    Tony
    
    

	SI had a little article about Mike Tyson potentially being released
from prison on Monday 6/13/94. The deal is Tyson would appoligize to
Desiree Washingston saying that wrongdoing took place, but he doesn't have
to say he raped her. He would also pay her 1.5 Million to drop her pending
cival law suit and settle out of court.
	Desiree would appear before the court on Monday. Saying that she
accepts Mike's apology. Desiree would also tell the Judge that she believes
that Tyson has served enough time and that he should be released from
prison. If the Judge agrees, Mike could walk out of court a free man after
the hearing on Monday.
	A plea bargain like this could save Tyson millions on the civil
law suit. He is scheduled to be released in May 1995. If he fights once or
twice before the civil suit is settled in court. Mike could have around
15 million from his fights. Then have to fork over big bucks to Desiree if
she won the civil suit. Whereas now Tyson is close to broke, and the
settlement would be less.

Ron

>>	Desiree would appear before the court on Monday. Saying that she
>>accepts Mike's apology. Desiree would also tell the Judge that she believes
>>that Tyson has served enough time and that he should be released from
>>prison. If the Judge agrees, Mike could walk out of court a free man after
>>the hearing on Monday.

	This is interesting.  It's rare that a victim has 'direct' influnce
	over the perp's jail time.

	Does this mean that is Desiree feels he needs to spend more time
	in prison Tyson goes back to the lockup?



	billl

	If the Judge doesn't let him out, the deal is off and she doesn't
get the 1.5 million. Its suppose to be all pre-arrainged between Tyson,
Washington and the Indiana court system.

Ron

As they'd say on Imus:

		Pimp Slap the.....

    	So basically for 1.5 million Washington concedes she wasn't
    raped, but was the victim of a "wrongdoing"?  What would it cost
    to get the "wrongdoing" plea bargained down to a "faux pas"?
    
    				   /Don

Reports are that Tyson would have to pay the money in installments since
he is reportedly broke; but one or two fights will take care of his
cash shortage.

Which alphabet soup organization would put him as the #1 contender??

The Crazy Met

    	WBC would be my choice Craze.
    
    				  /Don

    Tyson's blown $16 million since being in prison?  Isn't that what he
    made on his last fight before being jailed?
    
     I know, the more ya make the more ya spend,  but thats stretchin'...
    
      Tim

    
    The "world champion" is setting out his stall very early I see.
    Perrenial meal-ticket George Foreman has been brought in to be Moorer's
    first defence. 
    
    That's it Mike, clean up the division!!
    
    Tony
    
    

    Evander Holyfield made some new last week on a trip to Philadelphia. He
    funded (to the tune of $235,000) a faith healer's three day stand at
    the Philadelphia Civic Center and announced that the Healer (Wally Hinn,
    I think) had cured his heart condition and now Holyfield will return to
    boxing. If he follows through on this.......
    
    Dennis Faust
    

    
    I thought his cornerman for the Moorer fight was a faith-healer. The
    amount of times he told Evander that "Jesus loves you champ" would have
    cured a truckload of lepers.
    
    Tony
    
    

    re .457
    
    That's Benny Hinn.
    
              stig

 Tyson's 16 million = $125.35 and a happy meal for Mike, $15,999,874.65 for
 Don King..........

 I read a good quote from Charlie Ward's father. King stoppeed by the house
 to try and sign Charlie to a contract to represent him. Charlie Sr. said
 "If he hadn't left to catch a plane he still be talking"........

 mike

    Given Benny Hinn's failure to produce doctor's medical reports
    verifying his "thousands" of healings, I think Evander better do some
    Bible reading and praying on his own.  We don't need another Reggie
    Lewis or Hank Gathers.
    
    How did Tyson's parole review go?  Is he getting out earlier? 
    Supposedly he's converted to Islam while in prison and cleaned up his
    act.  This fact was going to be one of his presentation points to the
    female judge.
    
    Mike

Just heard on the radio that Tyson's parole was turned down.

Looks like the Champ stays in prison.....


'Saw

|    Supposedly he's converted to Islam while in prison and cleaned up his
|    act.  This fact was going to be one of his presentation points to the
|    female judge.
     ^^^^^^
 
Would this fact have more impact on a FEMALE judge than a MALE one? 

    No it wouldn't.  Commentary on ESPN radio last week stated that what
    would sway the judge is a full apology for what happened and a sign of
    complete remorse.  By doing this, he would basically confess that he
    did it.  As I understand it, Tyson never confessed to raping her.
    Judging by the outcome, he probably didn't do this.
    

 he didn't and why should he? He was setup and railroaded imo. They turned
 him down because he didn't meet the educational egilibility requirements.
 As far as remorse goes he said he should have been more of a gentleman and
 walked her down and out fo the hotel.......

    If he's innocent, I'm glad he stood his ground.

For the lastest result of a boxing match, check out note 3177 in the
Digital Notesfile......


'Saw

    Did Benny Hinn heal any of them?

    
    Riddick Bowe has signed to fight Lennox Lewis after Lewis has fought
    Oliver McCall and Bowe has had a warm-up fight. Lewis will recieve $23m
    and Bowe will get $16m.
    
    Rock Newman said Bowe had been craving for this fight ever since Lewis
    stopped him in the Olympics. Yeh right, that's why he backed out of a
    signed contract, relinquished the WBC title and fought smack-head
    Michael Dokes!!!
    
    January is the likely date, Vegas the venue.
    
    Tony
    
     

    
       If Riddick Bowe comes into this fight in good trim, he'd
      be favored to take it. Unfortunately, that's a big "if".
      Obviously Riddick and Rock were as unimpressed as the rest
      of the boxing world with Lewis' last couple of outings. The
      feeling probably is that if Lewis continues with the lack-
      luster performances the price of a Lewis-Bowe fight will
      go down not up. Tony, if you really want to see Lewis reach
      his full potential then start a "Drop Pepe Correia" campaign
      or you could be crying in your ale after this fight.

Tommy,

Who do you like in the Hands-of-Stone vs Oh-My-Achin'-Neck matchup?

I can't believe they're putting it on PPV.  I'd like to watch it, but
not for 29.95 or whatever.....


'Saw

    
      Duran vs. Pazienza has freak appeal but not much else. Duran
     is a good fifteen years past his prime and Vinny lost to every 
     really good fighter he ever faced. That people could even seriously
     believe that the geriatric Duran could beat Vinny speaks volumes.
     This figures to be a matchup of a runner against a man to old to 
     catch him. In a word - BORING. I wouldn't cross the street to
     watch these two fight let alone pay $29.95.

    
    Tommy, 
    
    How about Correa as your trainer and Newman as your manager, now that's
    scary!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Tony
    
    

    

    From a twenty-one year old Ring magazine, the heavyweight rankings
    at that time looked like this:

     HEAVYWEIGHT
     Champ: George Foreman, Hayward
     1. Joe Frazier, Philadelphia
     2. Ken Norton, San Diego
     3. Muhammad Ali, Cherry Hill
 
    
    

    
      There's a picture of a Vinny and Duran going at it in today's 
     Boston Globe. Duran's face looks a bit puffy and Vinny's is a 
     bloody (literally) mess. "Anything is possible" says Vinny's
     manager, Bill Cayton, in regards to a possible matchup with
     either Steve Collins, Nigel Benn or Chris Eubanks after Vinny
     took a twelve round inanimous decision over Duran. Yeah, Bill.
     Possible but not likely. If 43 year old Duran can knock Vinny on
     his butt, you know Nigel Benn or Chris Eubank would put poor punch-
     eating Vinny through the ropes. Vinny has never beaten a great
     fighter in his life and he still hasn't. I hope Roberto has made
     enough money this time and learned some financial lessons and 
     retires permanently this time so that a few years down the road 
     we don't see him staging another comeback and getting beaten by 
     another fighter that couldn't carry his jockstrap when 'Manos De 
     Piedra' was in his prime.
    

I respect Paz for his comeback from the broken neck.  No matter how much
of a stiff the guy is, that took guts.

But man, from what I have read and heard on the radio about the fight
the other night, Paz should hang it up.

And Duran -- what can you say....give it up too. 8^(


Sad.


'Saw

    
      Paz came back because he was broke. Not just his neck. He made
     some awful investments, he got burned in the Rhode Island banking
     crisis and he spent his money like he had an unlimited supply. There
     may have been a way for Vinny to earn $500,000 in a single night but
     figting Duran wouldn't land him in the federal penitentiary. Vinny's
     a game guy and early in his career before Rooney turned him into a
     runner (and prolonged his career), Vinny was entertaining. He staged
     some great bloodbaths against Greg Haugen. But he also got his butt
     kicked by Roger Maywether, Hector Camacho and all of really good
     fighters he's ever been in against. He's good but he's not the great
     fighter that he and his supporter's think that he is. There are about
     ten guys in his weight class that would beat him like he stole some-
     thing.

    'Manitos de Piedres' could probably whip him now.

	Buster Douglas in diabetic coma.  Admitted to the hospital yesterday.

	Kevin

>    
>        Apparently, Douglas has been upgraded from porr to stable.
>       It's not yet known whether he knew he had diabetes or not.
>       The betting here is that he went comatose after watching an
>       entire soccer game.
>

I heard on the Imus sports report this morning, and at that point I was
in a poor reception area of my drive, but what I heard was that Douglas
is between 350 and 400 pounds, and that his blood sugar was up around
800 where a normal reading is around 120.

Bernard cracked me up when they said that Douglas was now out of the coma.
Bernard goes "Yeah, he woke up asking for Ho-Hos..."

I was rolling.....

|Bernard cracked me up when they said that Douglas was now out of the coma.
|Bernard goes "Yeah, he woke up asking for Ho-Hos..."

Yea, that Bernard - he's a riot.

    
    
         A smarter, more disciplined person than Douglas could
        have parlayed the knockout of Tyson in Tokyo into a
        very large fortune what with the generally mediocre state
        of the heavyweight ranks then and now. Instead Buster loses
        the Holyfield fight at the dinner table and is now nothing
        more than a footnote in boxing history as the man who 
        beat the unbeatable Tyson. It's not too surprising that
        Douglas has ballooned. If $50-100 million wasn't enough
        to loosen his death grip on his knife and fork then
        nothing is. Except maybe his health...
    
      
        In other boxing news...
    
        USA network showcased a very entertaing Derrel Coley versus
        Terrence Alli fight last night. Coley is an undefeated up
        and comer and Alli is granite-chinned veteran who has seen
        better days. Still the mix of styles made for an interesting
        bout. Alli put on relentless pressure but Coley was just
        too quick for him and rocked Alli on several occasions.
        The last occasion being the 11th which prompted the referee
        to stop the fight. A bit premature, I thought, but Alli had 
        no chance of winning so it was just as well. I see Coley breaking
        the top ten but not really much more than a title shot and a 
        loss when his turn comes. Good mitts but very hittable and 
        lacking in pure punching and stopping power.

>         A smarter, more disciplined person than Douglas could
>        have parlayed the knockout of Tyson in Tokyo into a
>        very large fortune what with the generally mediocre state
>        of the heavyweight ranks then and now. Instead Buster loses
>        the Holyfield fight at the dinner table and is now nothing
>        more than a footnote in boxing history as the man who 
>        beat the unbeatable Tyson. It's not too surprising that
>        Douglas has ballooned. If $50-100 million wasn't enough
>        to loosen his death grip on his knife and fork then
>        nothing is. Except maybe his health...
    
      
I agree.  He basically had the world at his feet there for a time, and
while I don't think he was a GREAT boxer, he certainly could have 
defended his championship in a more honorable way, and could have contended
for a while, amassing paydays here and there....

350-400 pounds is a lot of weight, and I did a double take when I heard
what his blood sugar was.  He's lucky he's not dead.

I lost a friend who was diabetic a few years ago.  He was the nicest
guy, and took good care of himself, but unfortunately he got a little
out of balance one day, slipped into a coma and there was no one there
to revive him.

Douglas should consider himself a very lucky man and use the opportunity
wisely.....


'Saw

    What does Tommy know, he's a boxing fan...
    
    Anyone see the piece on SportsCenter about WWF and McMahon getting
    heat on the steroids suit?

|      The last occasion being the 11th which prompted the referee
|      to stop the fight. A bit premature, I thought, but Alli had 
 
Twas a good fight.  I agree that Alli looked liek he could go on, but not knock
him out, which would have been his only chance of winning.

=Bob= 

    I saw the WWF piece promo'd but I missed it.  What did ESPN have to say
    about that sleazebag McMahon?
    
    NAZZ

Seems Vince is probably looking at some time in the employ of the 
state for peddling and "pushing" steriods on wrestlers.

He'd better keep his mouth shut and take the fall for the people 
he works for. They're the type that don't take kindly to people 
who like to talk....

daryll

    Yeah, like Boxing has a lot of credibility with all its managers right
    now...  their main stories are a guy with a broken neck being hit by
    an ancient warrior, a guy with a sugar coma and a convicted rapist who
    isn't sure when he's getting out of jail, and council presidents who
    rate their boxers worse than the WWF deciding who should challenge
    Bret Hart or Mr. Perfect or whomever's hot right now...  When's the
    next Boxingmania fiasco?
    
    ESPN showed Wayne Coleman (aka Superstar Billy Graham) and Bruno
    Sammartino talking about the widespread use of steroids, even in
    McMahon himself.  Talked about how all wrestlers know Hulk Hogan and
    others took them to get bigger and "muscle repair".  Coleman's knees
    and ankles are deteriorating as a result of the steroid abuse.
    
    
    
    

Hey Walt, you forgot about the faith healer....

daryll

  >> their main stories are a guy with a broken neck being hit by
  >> an ancient warrior, a guy with a sugar coma and a convicted 
  >> rapist who isn't sure when he's getting out of jail...

     To casual fans those may be the "main stories". To boxing fans,
     Vinny Ha-ha vs. Manos De Arthritis was nothing more than an
     embarassment. To boxing fans, aside from the Dougls case, the 
     main stories are that Lewis-Bowe *will* happen, that Sweet
     Pea Whittaker will more than likely square off against the one
     man that can (and IMO *will*) beat him, Buddy McGirt and James Toney
     cleaning up his division. The machinations of the powers that 
     be do give boxing an unseemly circus atmosphere but it doesn't
     detract from the lustre of something of the magnitude of Bowe-
     Lewis or Whittaker vs. McGirt (a not-to-be-missed fight). These
     fights are real, the heart and the heartbreak is real. WWF is
     nothing but a scam to seperate suckers from their money.
    
    
    
    

    Whitaker-Chavez was real and the charlatans ruined that one.  I
    can't be convinced it couldn't/wouldn't happen again with any of
    these judges or refs anymore.  It's like Jimmy Hart hitting a guy
    off the back the haid with a gee-tar and rolling him over with the
    ref not looking for a pin.
    

Weren't Whittaker and McGirt supposed to square off this past winter?

I remember hearing each of them interviewed on the FAN, but now I can't
remember if they fought or not.  Did they, and is this a rematch?


'Saw

    
    
    	Yabbut say what you will about Vinny Paz.....I happen to like the
    guy, especially *because* he came back to fight after a freeking
    broken neck!
    
    	Wasn't he holding the belt when the accident ocurred?
    
    	Wasn't he *not responsible* for the accident?
    
    Certain similiarities/parallells could be drawn between Vinny Paz and
    Ali being stripped of his title.
    
    
    I remain,
    entitled to my opinion, I guess
    Kev
    

    
    re McGirt vs. Whittaker
     
     McGirt and Whittaker fought about 18-24 months ago with Pernell
    getting the decision. It was later revealed that Buddy fought most
    of the fight with a torn rotator cuff. After surgery and some tune-
    ups, McGirt looks as good as new which is pretty damned good. Pernell's
    strength is his quickness and his slickness. He's got lightening fast
    hands and reflexes and he's almost impossible to hit. McGirt is a
    ring savvy New Yorker with a pretty good set of mitts of his own and
    he doesn't respect Pernell's power. Buddy won't be made to look like
    a tortoise they way Chavez was.
    
    re Paz
    
    Yup, he's tough for coming back from the neck injury. Flat broke,
    though he was. As for any comparisons to Ali, Paz ain't even close 
    to that level. They shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sent-
    ence. 

    Beat ya Kev!
    
    NAZZ

|    re McGirt vs. Whittaker
|     
|     McGirt and Whittaker fought about 18-24 months ago with Pernell
|    getting the decision. It was later revealed that Buddy fought most
|    of the fight with a torn rotator cuff. After surgery and some tune-
|    ups, McGirt looks as good as new which is pretty damned good. Pernell's
|    strength is his quickness and his slickness. He's got lightening fast
|    hands and reflexes and he's almost impossible to hit. McGirt is a
|    ring savvy New Yorker with a pretty good set of mitts of his own and
|    he doesn't respect Pernell's power. Buddy won't be made to look like
|    a tortoise they way Chavez was.
    
Oh yes, I remember now.  I thought it was this past winter, but no, it
was the winter before, early in the year I believe....  The rotator
cuff is what jogged my memory.....


Should be a GREAT fight......


So Tommy, have you ever donned the gloves and stepped into the ring?

I had a friend that used to, and I thought about it once, then I realized
that my nose is big enough as it is, without letting some other guy 
pummel on it...


'Saw

|I had a friend that used to, and I thought about it once, then I realized
|that my nose is big enough as it is, without letting some other guy 
|pummel on it...

Once when I was in High School I was goign to do it.  I watched a friend of 
mine, who knew what he was doing get in the ring with another kid.  I had
"sparred" with this kid a few times, and had concluded that he had the fastest
hands I had ever seen.  Well when he got pummeled, I decided that maybe I 
should stick to doing a few more bench presses.

=Bob=

    
    
    	Yabbut it wasn't my intention to dishonor Ali by mentioning Paz's
    name.  Just a very simple statement
    
    
    	Ali - held the title		Paz-held the title
    
    	Ali - had the title taken away
    
    	Ali - outa boxing for 3(?) years  Paz - broke neck, outa boxing
    						bye, bye title
    	Ali - came back			Paz - came back
    
    
    So.......there is a sorta comparison/parallel......
    
    
    	Kev
    

re: .504

The kid I saw in the ring was a great natural athlete too.  He was a running
back on the football team, ran track, and played outfield on the baseball team.
The kid he got into the ring with just plain old knew how to box (not fight,
box).

=Bob=

Boxing is definitely a science, no doubt about it.  And it takes a very
high level of one type of fitness if you're going to last also.

If they could get rid of the Don Kings and the circus atmosphere I'd
enjoy it even more....


'Saw

    Ironically in one measure of "what is a sport?" the two activities most
    similar are figure skating a boxing (as was mentioned in the great
    winter debate) and two that are most dissimilar would be bowling and
    golf.
    
    That is where the similarity and vv is how much the outcome is decided
    by judges.
    
    

hey, at least in boxing you bleed.....  And there is one clear cut way
to win where you don't need to be judged.....  

    
    
    	Yabbut doesn't Vinny get any credit for being a Crrode Eyland
    native?????
    
    ;^)
    
    I remain,
    a fan of Ocean State products!
    Kev
    

    yes, there was a lot of irony there and boxing is one of my favorite
    sports and in the past the judging wasn't nearly the factor it is today
    - or should I say we didn't have don king buying the judges.
    
    the nba has lost a lot if its appeal in trying to handle the role of
    "judges" (read referrees).  Last years it was star treatment, this year
    they had to deal with the canny Patrick Ewing who had figured out what
    Stern had told the refs about not fouling out either of the big guys.
    
    So Patrick would get more and more flagrant with his moving picks
    challenging the refs to use up one of THEIR allotted Ewing fouls
    knowing he had them over a barrel - if they called foul number 4 or 5
    (depending on when) he could have carte blanche until the time of game
    - number of fouls had hit the correct metric.

    	Speaking of steroids and Pazienza, Vinny looked pretty pumped
    up for the Duran fight.  Anybody who thinks only Don King is
    responsible for the circus atmosphere surely hasn't followed boxing
    through the years.  Like Jimmy Cannon said, boxing is the red light
    district of sports, you know what you're getting when you go there.
    
    				  /Don

>    	Speaking of steroids and Pazienza, Vinny looked pretty pumped
>    up for the Duran fight.  Anybody who thinks only Don King is
>    responsible for the circus atmosphere surely hasn't followed boxing
>    through the years.  Like Jimmy Cannon said, boxing is the red light
>    district of sports, you know what you're getting when you go there.
    
I don't think it's only Don King, but he's always the first name who
comes to mind.


Don't they test these guys for juice and stuff like that?

    
      Fighters *are* drug tested. I'd guess Vinny is just hitting
     the weights. 
    
      Speaking of overrated and undertalented New England middleweights, 
     the latest one being pushed is Malden, Mass' Dana Rosenblatt. Like 
     Paz, Rosenblatt is heavily pushing the ethnic angle (he's Jewish) in 
     hopes of drumming up the type of hardcore following that Vinny Haha 
     has. And like Vinny, Rosenblatt is padding his record with 'bakery 
     specials'. You know, cream puffs and cupcakes. The kid is cocky, too. 
     He may eventually get a title shot if he doesn't fight a live body 
     beforehand because this kid has even less talent than Vinny and is 
     really due for a pounding. On the brighter side (maybe) is that
     Micky Ward from Lowell maybe making a comeback at age 28. Micky
     is the younger half-brother of Dick Eklund, a guy who took Sugar
     Ray Leonard the full distance in a ten round bout early in Leonard's 
     career when Ray was blasting out everybody he faced. Micky had his
     career derailed by personal problems but was a really promising
     fighter early on.

    Yup, I've seen a few of Rosenblatts fights. He struggled against the
    most shot fighter in the world, Brent Lally. He is a never-will-be and
    no mistake.
    
    BTW Brydie, one more nasty comment about soccer and I'll be over there
    slid-tackling yer.
    
    Tony
    
     

>     himself) could take Rosenblatt serious when he says that he''ll be
>     champ one day. He reminds me of Maine's Joey Gamache who was all the
>     rage until he actually faced a live opponent and then he was exposed
>     like Pee Wee Herman in aporn theatre.
>    


Man, Field Service just hates it when they have to clean the soda outta
my keyboard, and my sinuses are all fizzed up!

You got me rollin' with that one Tommy....

    
    
    From the FWIW department:
     
      Southbees(?)(sp) of London auctioned off Ali's championship belt (1st) 
    yesterday. They were expecting ~ $125k.
      
      They didn't get a single bid.
    
      

	Don King indicted on 9 counts of wire fraud.  Filed false claims with
	Lloyds of London after a 1991 bout was cancelled.

	Kevin

yeah what a shock. such a paradigm of virtue like Don King being
indicted for fraud.

Is there anything sleazy that this guy hasn't done??

The Crazy Met

  Don King is sleazy. Don King is ruthless. Don King would
 scam his mother for a buck. In short, Don King has all of the
 qualities of a top notch boxing promoter. He may be a little
 dirtier than the Duvas and Bob Arum but not all that much. They
 all play by boxing's rules. You know those rules. The ones they 
 make up as they go along. "You want a title fight? Give us op-
 tions on your next four fights and three pints of blood." "You're
 30-0 with 30 knockouts and I don't have options on you. Until 
 I do have options on you, you're unranked." Before anyone gets
 all happy about King being indicted, remember he's no fool and
 no courtroom virgin. We're talking about a former numbers king
 from Cleveland who beat a man to death over $600 (mere pocket
 money) and paid off a judge to get only 4 years for *manslaughter*.
 A guy who went to prison a street hustler and read everything in
 the prison library to the point where he can quote everything
 from Malcolm X to Macbeth. Don King talked Muhammad Ali into
 doing a benefit in Cleveland and parlayed that into being
 the biggest, most recognisable promoter in boxing. The man makes
 PT Barnum look like a piker. He's been indicted before and
 walked. He won against the IRS. How many people can say that?
 No doubt he's dirty but he knows how to play the game because he 
 invented the new and improved version. But the Feds want him bad 
 and chances are they've got him this time and if not they'll
 surely try try again.
    

 I doubt they've got him. It's only 350K. If quilty he'll pay that back
 and the judge and walk.......

 mike

        It's really vintage Don King. He filed a $350,00 claim
       to LLoyd's Of London claiming lost training expenses when
       Chavez had to pull out of a bout with Harold Brazier due
       to a cut nose. Allegedly, the contract that he submitted 
       to LLoyd's was not the contract that King and Chavez had 
       signed. King claimed that he had paid Chavez the $350,000
       in non-refundable training expenses. LLoyd's claims that King 
       lied when he said that the expenses were non-refundable.
       It also claims that King never told Chavez that he recouped
       the money from LLoyd's. Don King is the type of guy who'd
       get a hole-in-one and score it as zero and here Chavez is
       signing on with the guy when Chavez was already at the 
       top of his prefession with hero status in Mexico and in
       the Mexican-American community. If Chavez is lucky, he'll
       come out of his relationship with King with a decent pair
       of shoes and bus fare home. If Mike Tyson is lucky, King  
       will be going to jail just as Tyson gets out and Mike can
       get a promoter that won't screw him over as completely as 
       King could.

    This boxing, it's not possible that people only care to watch for the
    spec-tick-al of it all, is it?  ;-)
    
    glenn
    

 >> This boxing, it's not possible that people only care to watch for the
 >> spec-tick-al of it all, is it?  ;-)
   
    There is no spectacle. There are no chants in the stands. No drum
    playing. No nationalistic fervor. The crowd isn't a part of the 
    draw at all. It's two guys, a referee and a ring. In that sense it is 
    the purest of sports.  All of the talk about soccer as 'art' and 
    soccer as the 'best measure of an athlete'. You want art? Watch a tape
    of Pernell Whittaker completely stifling a 65-0 JC Chavez. It was
    a masterpiece almost on par with some of Ali's best performances.
    You want the best measure of an athlete? Try going just three rounds
    at three minutes a piece with someone trying to take your head off
    and then imagine the condition of guys that go twelve rounds and
    the guys that used to go fifteen or more. Then there's the courage and
    the heart that anyone who is brave enough to just step into the ring
    must have. What's more, almost without exception boxers come from the
    mean streets. It's not not a profession that well-to-do kids often choose 
    or do well at when they do choose it. To box you must be hungry. It's 
    something that poor kids do because they can do little else. And that's
    why great champions often hang around too long. Having gone from rags to 
    riches and fame, they cling too long to what has given them an identity in 
    the eyes of other - to be 'Champ'. Joe Louis, Sonny Liston, Muhammad Ali
    and so many of the other great tragic figures of boxing. It is a sport
    that drips with pathos.  In all of sport there is nothing uglier than 
    watching a bout between two stiffs or anything  more beautiful than watch-
    ing a great boxer practice his craft. It is both the noblest of sports
    and a damn shame.
    

    	Sport's Illustrated reports now that Mike Tyson used the magic
    word in his letter to the judge (conduct was "inexcusable") he'll
    be a free man by Labor Day.
    
    				  /Don

   >> Ever been to a Chavez or Duran fight????

      Nope and I tend to doubt that you have either. But I know what your
      point is. Chavez is a hero in Mexico. Duran is a hero in Panama. They
      both bring large numbers of their countrymen to their bouts. One of
      the amazing things when Whittaker beat Chavez (yes "beat") was the
      stunned silence of the hugely partisan Chavez crowd in San Antonio.
      Still, most of Chavez' early fights were in Mexico against fellow
      Mexicans. I doubt there was much flag waving then. What would be
      the point? And when Hearns fough Hagler there wasn't any flag waving
      or chanting then. And you know what? No one missed it and it was an
      incredibly electric fight. When Duran fought Esteban DeJesus early in 
      his career (boy would I have loved to have been *there*) there was no 
      mention of the "pageantry" or "passion" of the Panamanian and Puerto 
      Rican fans. Strangley enough most of the writing and talk centered 
      around the actual fights themselves. Imagine that.
    

    -2
    
    You bring back memories Tommie....
    
    Duran in his heyday in great fights with De Jesus.  Great memories
    because Duran was not real known and those fights were on Wide World
    of Sports.  People who have never seen Duran in those days have never
    witnessed one of the great fighters of all time.  He was quick,
    elusive and could knock the sh*t out of a person.  I remember reading
    an article about ten - fifteen years ago on Duran and how he grew up.
    A poor kid shining shoes in Panama...  I remember him fighting Edwin
    Viruet from Puerto Rico.  Theses guys genuinely hated eachother and
    fought for peanuts.  Boy those were the days.....
    
    Frank
    
    A fan of the early Manos de piedra.
    

    Remember the Ken Buchanan massacre? Had to be over 20 years ago.

    
       Edwin Viruet. There's a blast from the past. 
    
       I rented a video once that was put out by Ring magazine. They
      had a panel of experts rate the top three fighters in the eight
      classic weight categories (no "junior" or "super" anythings). Duran
      was rated the number two lightweight of all-time. He certainly
      was the best that I ever saw. Not only did he have good hand
      speed but he had very heavy hands (hence the moniker "Hands Of
      Stone), was a devastating body puncher and he had a mean streak 
      two miles wide.  
    
       Another guy who I used to love and who died much much too soon 
      was Salvador Sanchez. Just a complete joy to watch perform his craft. 
      Salvador used to sit pat for a round or two until he figured you out
      and then you were done. He'd take you apart with surgical precision.
      Another favorite, Tony Ayala who would have really livened up the
      Hearns/Hagler/Leonard mix if he hadn't gone whacko and ended up
      a guest of the New Jersey state prison system. Talk about heavy
      hands. I saw him knock a kid cold with a punch that couldn't have
      traveled six inches. I think he could have beaten just about any
      of the top middles and junior middles out there in the early to
      mid 80s. Alexis Arguello was another great one. I'll never forget 
      him giving "Boom Boom" Mancini a very painful boxing lesson that
      Ray didn't learn to well because Livingstone Bramble gave him
      an even more painful one. Aaron "the Hawk" Pryor, who was about
      as good 140 pound fighter as I've seen, was another favorite.
      Danny "Little Red" Lopez...
    

    Tommy, I should hook you up with my brother-in-law.  He must have at
    least 100 tapes of fights over the ages that he's either picked up from
    PPV or purchased through magazines.  I'd venture to say that he's
    probably got over 400 fights on tape dating back to the early Cassius
    Clay days, including the Liston fight.
    
    He's a certified boxing junkie.
    
    Mark.
    

    -a couple...
    
    I remember Duran fighting a guy from Italy named Luigi Munchillo.
    This guy ran from Duran for the entire fight.  Finally in round
    13 Duran hit him with a punch that I thought killed the guy.  He
    fell like those western movie guys who get shot.  They interviewed
    Duran after the fight.  Duran called the guy a "gallina" and stated
    that if he fought him again he would kill him ( mato was the word
    he used).  And I believe he meant it.  Hey Tommie remember seeing
    Carlos Monzon fight???  Man that guy was smooth.  I think he held the
    middle weight championship for 10 years.  
    
    Boxing today is not the same as it was.  I lost interest when fights
    went exclusively to Pay per view.  Early pay per view was OK but today
    it is out of hand and I basically lost interest.  Give me the days when
    you could watch the fight on abc or cbs or even nbc.
    
    Frank Mendez
    

    I vaguely remember Monzon. He stills holds the record for
   title defenses with something like 17. Boxing has a lot of
   problems and most of them are promoter related. If a genie
   popped up and made me boxing czar I'd:

       a) Make it illegal for promoters and managers to be aff-
          iliated. Manager's are supposed to get the best matches
          for their fighters. Promoters just want to make money.
          When the two are one they seldom seek out the toughest
          opponent, they play the percentages instead. You'll
          never see the likes of Ali fighting Norton, Frazier,
          Foreman and whoever else is out there ever again and
          certainly not with that frequency.

       b) One and only one sanctioning organization. As it is now
          the rankings of the three major orgs are completely diff-
          erent with glaring omissions on some lists based purely
          on politics and economics.

       c) Give boxers *national* boxing licenses. Today a meat
          fighter can fight in Massachusetts and get knocked out, 
          drive to Connecticut tomorrow and get knocked out. Be-
          fore you know it he's seriously and permanently brain
          damaged. I'd have mandatory physicals twice per year.

       d) Create a national boxers union with a percentage of all
          purses going toward a retirement fund for fighters. Too
          many fighters are really ill-equipped to do much else
          and too many fighters are scammed by promoters and end 
          up broke.

       e) National licenses for promoters. I'd drive guys like King
          out of the boxing businesses. What he does may not be strictly
          illegal but it is certainly unethical. 

       f) Two mandatory title defense per year for all champs and they
          must be against the number one challenger.

      
    

    Bravo Tommy, great ideas.
    
    Even the Ali that fought Frazier the 2nd and 3rd time and the one that
    beat Foreman was a sight to savor. I can only imagine what a younger
    Ali was like.
    
    re: crowds, etc.
    
    Ali had the crowds on his side in Zaire and Manila; that has to help
    when you are fighting at a wierd hour for TV purposes in a foreign
    country. btw this is just an example of crowds coming into play not a
    statement about Ali.
    
    The Crazy Met

    -2
    Tommy
    What can be done about promoters having all the ranked fighters in
    a given weight? I remember Chavez having a fight with the top ranked
    fighter who were both promoted/managed by the Don King.
                   

  >> What can be done about promoters having all the ranked fighters in
  >> a given weight? I remember Chavez having a fight with the top ranked
  >> fighter who were both promoted/managed by the Don King.
    
     It has to do with the option contracts that promoters (not just
     King either) make fighters sign before they'll put them in with
     their champion. When Buster Douglas went in with Mike Tyson, King
     had him sign a four fight option contract. So King is covered
     no matter what. If Tyson wins, King is still his promoter. If
     Douglas wins, King has options on his next four fights. What do you
     suppose King does before he lets anyone in with Dougls? Sign an
     option contract first, buddy! That's how King managed to control
     the heavyweight picture for a long long time. In the real world 
     it might be considered a conflict of interest to be able to play 
     both sides of the street. In the twighlight zone of the boxing 
     world no one even thinks twice about it.
    

    
       Apparently, Mike Heiser isn't the only person whose ability
      to think and reason have been adversely effected by prolonged
      exposure to the Arizona sun. Arizona kid, Michael Carbajal, is
      the baked brain in question. Carbajal has just inked a five
      fight deal with recently indicted Don King. Now to your aver-
      age schmoe signing on with a promoter who is under indictment
      for swindling an insurance company and for playing two side
      against the middle might not seem like a good idea. But Car-
      bajal is a boxer and an Arizonan (two strikes) and he and his
      manager/brother Danny say they have no reservations about fight-
      ing for King. It must be a case of the evil you know versus the 
      one that you don't. 
      

    
      re .541
    
      Give it up, Davey. The sport that you've been defending all 
      along just had its championship game end in a nothing-nothing 
      tie. "This will be kind of like Ali-Nortron". Ha! It was more
      like Kramden-Norton (see The Honeymooners - American tv c.1957)
      A lot of bluster and boast but next-to-nothing happened.  

    
    	Just imagine if boxers took dives like WC "football" players
    	do.....
    
    Claybone

    And boxing is a 'sport'. Young musclebound meatheads against fat old
    hasbeens 'till they gain a reputation then......hey presto they lift
    one of the 29 world titles  available (for the same weight).
    
    Yes, I love SPORT.
    
    yer pal,
    	    Davie.

               
>    	Just imagine if boxers took dives like WC "football" players
>    	do.....
                                       
    Field-side microphones did pick up Maradona offering Stoitchkov an
    "inducement" to perform his best Klinsmann imitation in that Arg-Bul
    game... ;-)
    
    Ali-Frazier was 20 years ago.  That's the sad reality, that most of
    what boxing fans (including myself) enjoyed is gone, and ain't coming
    back.  That library of taped fights discussed earlier is far more
    attractive than any future "boxing" might try to maintain...
    
    glenn
    

>                                       
>    Field-side microphones did pick up Maradona offering Stoitchkov an
>    "inducement" to perform his best Klinsmann imitation in that Arg-Bul
>    game... ;-)
>    

Hey, watch the Klinsmann shot.  It was a foul in the area, no doubt
about it!  8^)

    
  >> Ali-Frazier was 20 years ago.  That's the sad reality, that most of
  >> what boxing fans (including myself) enjoyed is gone, and ain't coming
  >> back.  That library of taped fights discussed earlier is far more
  >> attractive than any future "boxing" might try to maintain...
    
     Ali-Frazier(s) was twenty years ago but Chavez-Whittaker wasn't and
     was every bit as good a fight as any of the Ali-Frazier fights. Neither
     Whittaker or Chavez (You rememeber Chavez. You laughed when I told you
     he wasn't that good.) is a star or has a persona on the magnitude of
     Ali but examining just what happened in the ring, Whittaker-Chavez   
     was aboslutely beautiful. Bowe-Holyfield I&II were both excellent
     fights. Bowe-Lewis should be a good one as will Whittaker-McGirt.
     Most of the fighters referred to earlier like Ali and Duran and Monzon
     rank among the all-time greats in their divisions. To see a fighter
     like that in your lifetime, it's inevitable that as a boxing fan, you
     will point ot those fighters and their greatest fights with fond
     remeberance the way my dad points to Graziano-Zale or Willie Pep
     vs. Sandy Sadler and says "*That's* when boxers were boxers."

    Im not a huge fan of either soccer or boxing, but I think Id survive
    longer on a soccer field then in a ring :-)
    
    Neither sport is something I could watch/follow on a regular schedule,
    boxing has the 1 fight every few years that everyone watches and hey
    even soccer has those 3-5 games everyone watches.  But even though I
    found a way to sit through and watch 2 USA games the WC Championship
    didnt entice me to watch even a minute... I came accross the game while
    channel surfing, it was 0-0 and i Just thougth it figures... and kept
    going...
    
    Funny thing was when I got my morning paper I pulled out the sports
    page and on the front page of the sports was............
    
    
    Local Softball  :-), wc was a few page's in ....
    
    								MaB

    
>     Ali-Frazier(s) was twenty years ago but Chavez-Whittaker wasn't and
>     was every bit as good a fight as any of the Ali-Frazier fights. Neither
>     Whittaker or Chavez (You rememeber Chavez. You laughed when I told you
>     he wasn't that good.)
    
    I think you have me confused with /Don, or someone else (although I do
    have more respect for Chavez' career than to say he's "not that good").  
    But in any case, as with your unpalatable 0-0 soccer game, that fight 
    was judged a draw (let's go to the penalty punches!).  The point is 
    that there's more to an appreciation of a sport than a pre-occupation 
    with the final score.  In boxing there *has* to be, in order for there 
    to be any appreciation (or applied sanity) whatsoever.
    
    Still, exceptions aside, you'd be hard-pressed to convince anyone that, 
    in the ring itself, boxing is not in serious decline.  Because the
    feeder system is hurting (at least in the US), I don't see how that
    will be reversed.  And I agree, it's a damn shame, but take it out on
    your own sport... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    Tommy,
    I disagree with you about Chavez.  When he fought Meldrick Taylor, he
    was given very little chance.  Chavez is not very quick but he can cut
    off a ring and through heavy body punches.  When Chavez was done with
    Meldrick Taylor it was a mess.  Taylor was taken to a hospital to be
    given blood transfusion.  Taylor was considered at the time to be the
    best fighter "pound for pound".  Chavez hit Taylor more than just the
    last part of the fight.  BTW have you ever heard from Taylor since?
    
    Frank Mendez
    

    	Frank, if the Taylor/Chavez hadn't been stopped with one second
    left Meldrick would've won the fight on points (and fair and square
    I might add).  While it's true Chavez's punches did much more damage
    that's not the sole factor judged.  I think Taylor outpunched him
    by something like a 3-1 margin.  I like Chavez, but the Taylor and
    Whitaker fights have knocked him down a bit as far as all time greats
    go.  He certainly isn't in the Prime Duran pantheon.  Supposedly
    Taylor and Chavez have signed to fight again.
    
    				   /Don

    
>     Nope, it was you at the Ground Round for JD's going away. I said 
>     that Chavez was good but not nearly the great fighter that he was
>     being made out and you had a good little belly laugh. Poor little
>     addle-brained Tommy don't know what he's talking about. I had
>     Taylor to beat Chavez in *that* fight but Taylor did what one
    
    Well, I'm really confused now.  Taylor-Chavez was in what, 1991?  So I
    guess I'm guilty of not giving you full credit for an opinion on Chavez 
    (that wasn't totally correct, in any case, at least not in the Taylor
    fight-- Steele's assessment of Taylor's condition was justified by the 
    amount of time Taylor had to spend in the hospital afterwards) a couple 
    of years before I'd ever met you!
    
    Regardless, I still Chavez was one of the greats.  As is Whittaker...
    
    glenn
    

    
  >> Well, I'm really confused now.  Taylor-Chavez was in what, 1991?  So I
  >> guess I'm guilty of not giving you full credit for an opinion on Chavez 
  >> (that wasn't totally correct, in any case, at least not in the Taylor
  >> fight-- Steele's assessment of Taylor's condition was justified by the 
  >> amount of time Taylor had to spend in the hospital afterwards) a couple 
  >> of years before I'd ever met you!
    
     Yes you are confused. I didn't meet you until well after the Taylor
     fight. What I'm saying is that I was so unconvinced of Chavez' talent
     despite the hype that I expected him to lose back then and he really 
     came within two seconds of doing just that.
     
  >> Regardless, I still Chavez was one of the greats.  As is Whittaker...
    
     Fighters like Chavez point out more than anything that you can't just
     judge a fighter stricly based on his record. Can you name two of Chavez'
     pre-Taylor opponents? One even? Of course not. Fighters are only as
     good as the level of the competition that they've faced and beaten and 
     that's why Chavez isn't one of the "all-time" greats and Rocky Marciano 
     is the most overrated athlete of the 20th Century.
    

    
    Gotcha on the Taylor-Chavez... I mis-read the emphasis on *this*
    fight...
    
  >> Regardless, I still Chavez was one of the greats.  As is Whittaker...
  >  
  >   Fighters like Chavez point out more than anything that you can't just
  >   judge a fighter stricly based on his record. Can you name two of Chavez'
  >   pre-Taylor opponents? One even? Of course not. Fighters are only as
  >   good as the level of the competition that they've faced and beaten and 
  >   that's why Chavez isn't one of the "all-time" greats and Rocky Marciano 
  >   is the most overrated athlete of the 20th Century.
    
    This is also *exactly* the same argument I made to you about the
    in-his-prime Marvin Hagler that you claim the world didn't get to 
    see (which maybe is true, maybe not; we'll never know for sure). 
    And don't go trotting out Willie Monroe, Alan Minter and Vito 
    Antuofermo! ;-)  Because as we've discussed, Hagler was not 
    terribly dominant and impressive when he made it to prime-time...
    
    glenn
     

    I never said that Chavez was an all time great.  Regardless of whether
    Chavez was behind on points or not.  He gave Meldrick Taylor a
    tremendous beating.  You are right that Taylor would have won the
    decision but that does not have anything to do with the physically
    beaten that happened.  BTW I would not have had much of a problem
    if Taylor had won the decision.  I understand that Pernell Whitaker
    gave Chavez a boxing lesson.  Boxing is one of those sports that
    can have a winner who looks like a loser.  Personally, for his era
    Chavez was one of if not the hardest punchers around.  The problem
    with Chavez and other light fighters is when they change weight
    classes.  Chavez did not get the big money fights until he went up
    in weight.  I believe he as well as Duran started at lightweight and
    during THEIR prime dominated that weight division.  Check out Chavez
    at the light weight division and you will see a quicker, heavy handed
    boxer as well has puncher.
    
    Frank
    

    Marciano's success was a combination of heart and luck over sheer
    talent but he did do it - it being wins over ezzard charles, jersey joe
    walcott (2nd), joe louis (ok,40s version of foreman) and all comers.
    
    Who did he dodge, Tommy.
    
    But this brings me to an earlier point.  The demise of boxing which
    Ali,Duran and later sugar ray (2nd,again) rescued can be traced fromm
    Rocky's retirement thru the awful patterson years with dick tiger and
    other exceptions (sugar ray I was older like a 1970 Pele).  So boxing
    40 years ago was on the decline.
    
    Billthe

    
  >> Marciano's success was a combination of heart and luck over sheer
  >> talent but he did do it - it being wins over ezzard charles, jersey joe
  >> walcott (2nd), joe louis (ok,40s version of foreman) and all comers.
    
     Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe and especially Joe Louis were all well past
     their primes when Marciano came along. He didn't really have to dodge
     anybody because anybody who was anybody was a grandfather by the time
     the Rock came along. If memory serves, Walcott was 38 when he fought
     Marciano. The average age of Marciano's title opponents was 34! I'd put 
     Marciana a peg below Larry Holmes in that they both held their titles 
     during a lull in the heavyweight ranks but still Holmes fought stiffer 
     (although still weak) competition.
    
    

    
  >> This is also *exactly* the same argument I made to you about the
  >> in-his-prime Marvin Hagler that you claim the world didn't get to 
  >> see (which maybe is true, maybe not; we'll never know for sure). 
  >> And don't go trotting out Willie Monroe, Alan Minter and Vito 
  >> Antuofermo! ;-)  Because as we've discussed, Hagler was not 
  >> terribly dominant and impressive when he made it to prime-time...
    
     I admit that I have a weak spot Hagler because he was a local guy and 
     he had a big heart. Still, I'm not so blinded by loyalty that I'll
     argue that he won the Leonard fight. He didn't. I will contend that
     he was too old and lacked the motivation to win it. And I will argue
     that Leonard would not fight Hagler when he was in his prime. The
     other fight that people point to is the Duran fight and Hagler didn't
     exactly shine in that one either. Too much respect. On the postive
     side, Hagler destroyed the best one-punch knockout artist of my gen-
     eration and holder of titles in five divisions, Tommy Hearns. And
     Hagler destroyed John "The Beast" Mugabi when Mugabi was 26-0 with
     26 knockouts. Hagler was only ever down once and that was really
     a slip in his fight against Juan Domingo Roldan. Hagler persevered
     despite having the worst corner in boxing. He lacked the connections
     to get a title fight until he had fought well over 40 fights and had
     only lost two to Philadelphia fighters Willie "the Worm" Monroe and
     Bobby "Bugaloo" Watts *in* Philadelphia by shaky decisions. Both losses
     were later avenged. Another reason no one wanted Hagler was that not
     only did he have a granite chin and a relentless attack, he was a south-
     paw. Managers don't like to put their prize fighters in with southpaws 
     because they're dangerous - the angles are different. Hagler in his
     prime was a good a fundamental boxer/puncher as I ever saw and he was
     the best middleweight I ever saw.

    Pernell Whitaker is also a southpaw and maybe that was the problem
    that Chavez had with him?
    
    

	Surprise!  Con King has pleaded innocent.  "...due process is a 
	wonderful thing...."

	Kevin

	(typo intentional)

    
    	Rolling!  You'd better (tm) "Con King".
    
    Claybone

    
    
       HBO has two fights on tonight that could prove to be very
      entertaining. The first one will be James Toney vs. Prince
      Charles Williams for Toney's IBF super middleweight crown.
      Williams is a very good fighter who has the misfortune to be
      up against one of the best fighters going right now. It should
      be good for as long as it lasts which I figure will be about 
      seven rounds. In the other fight, over-hyped Olympic pretty
      boy, Oscar DeLaHoya, goes up against journeyman/showman Jorge
      Paez in what should be Oscar's stiffest test yet. If Paez packed 
      little more power I'd take him over Oscar. As it is, it may
      well turn into a real war because Paez is busy and aggressive
      and Oscar has been on his butt a couple of times lately and has 
      something to prove. I figure the referre stops contest some-
      where around the tenth and Oscar wins or he gets a unanimous
      decision. I'll put an ACC_Chris spin on that prediction and say
      that I won't be surprised if Oscar gets clocked and loses. I'm
      just not at all impressed with him.

Tomnmy,

Did you happen to catch the Goodwill Games boxing, and the "controversy"
over the electronic scoring and how it is actually changing the 
strategy of the sport (ie boxers going exclusively for head shots, passing
up combinations because the electronic scoring defeats the purpose)?

I hadn't heard much about it, but I think it sucks.....


'Saw

    Tommy
    I heard that Oscar cold cocked Paez.  Did you see the fight? 
    Fill me in...
    
    Frank
    

    Second round, a minute + gone....
    
    left hook, miss, left hook, left hook, miss, left hook....out goes the
    lights.  I was consuming beverages and thats about what I remember.
    
    Oh...you meant the Paez, DeLaHoya fight;*).....
    
    Paez was shook up early in the 2nd round, then Delahoya laid him out
    after a bunch of lefts to the head.  No way Paez was going to get up on
    the count.  The commentators after the fight were comparing him with
    Leonard.  Maybe?
    
    BTW...First round was pretty much a draw..thew fighters were pretty
    lame.
    
    Ciao
    Steve 

What's this I hear about Bobby Czyz fighting for some champeenship.

I thought he retired.  Last time I saw him I was in a bar in the Bahamas,
sucking down Kalik beer, on rugby tour.....


'Saw

   >> Tommy
   >> I heard that Oscar cold cocked Paez.  Did you see the fight? 
   >> Fill me in...
    
      Two fighters moving in completely different directions here.
      Oscar is the 'Golden Boy' and Jorge is rapidly declining to-
      ward 'opponent' status. Not only was Oscar too big for Paez
      but too young, too quick and too smart also. Unlike recent
      outings when DeLaHoya has gotten knocked down early while
      trying to press, he played it smart this time and felt Paez
      out. Taking a shot here and there but never out of control
      never taking that homerun swing. Paez, for his part, looked 
      totally ineffective. The pawing style that worked at 122 and 
      126 pounds made him look like a kitten to DeLaHoya's doberman 
      pinscher. It was obvious very early that this wasn't going to 
      be much of a fight. Proof positive came about one minute into 
      the second round when Oscar absolutely crunched Paez with a left 
      hook and finished him off with a succession of punches that left 
      no doubt that this baby was over. The victory was just what
      Oscar needed to polish his somehwat tarnished image. The 
      defeat was surely the last of Paez' big paydays. However, IMO, the
      jury is still out on Oscar.

How 'bout that Bowe-Mathis fight?  Didn't see anything except the ending.

Tough call.  I had always heard that boxers were instructed to fight until the 
bll or th ref separating them.  I suspect that Bow just couldn't stop himslf
from instinctually going after Mathis.  Arthur Mercante has been refereeing 
fights ver since I can remember, but he was a much too slow onthe uptake on this
one.

(If anyone missd it, Bowe hit Mathis with a couple good punches, Mathis went 
to on knee to recover, and Bowe moved in, sucker punched him, and knocked him 
cold.  The officials ruled it a no-decision.)

=Bob=

    
    
       This past weekend I stumbled across a copy of Sports Ill-
      ustrated from 1958. After breezing past the yachting article 
      and the bridge strategy article (really!), I came across a nice
      piece on Hartford, Connecticut's pride and joy, Willie Pep.
      The article covered a fight towards the end of Pep's career 
      when he got his clock cleaned but it waxed fairly eloquent 
      about what a fighter Pep was in his prime. Unfortunately (?)
      Willie had an insatiable appetite for gambling and blondes
      that left him penniless when he was done in the fight game. 
      After his last fight his manager surprised Willie with an 
      annuity that the manager had bought to ensure that Willie
      was taken care of after he put the gloves down for good.
      He knew Willie couldn't save a dime himself. Impossible to
      imagine such a thing happening today.

I have some friends that lived a couple of houses down from him.

He's definitely Connecticut's pride and joy, moreso even than Marlon
Starling.


Tommy, did you see the piece on Boxing on 60 Minutes Sunday night?  Pretty
interesting -- it showed the totally unscrupulous side of the fight game
and how fights are fixed.   Unreal.....


'Saw

  >> He's definitely Connecticut's pride and joy, moreso even than Marlon
  >> Starling.
    
     That's not surprising. White fighters invariably make out better than
     fighters of color who are equally talented. Do you really think that
     Tommy Morrison deserves to be a millionaire or that Jerry Cooney did?
     Pep was an engaging white playboy. Marlon Starling was a black tough guy 
     from East Hartford who once said that he'd fight Vinny Pazienze fornoth-
     ing just to kick his ass. Not exactly the type of thing to endear you to 
     the public. But to give Pep his due, Pep vs. Sandy Sadler is considered by 
     just about every boxing expert to be one of the greatest fights of all 
     time.

Hey, don't get me wrong, I like Marlon Starling.  He seemed to have it
all,then kind of came up a little short -- or let's say he didn't live up
to what might have been too big expectations.

If I remember right (and it's been a while) he was one of Johnny Duke's
fighters, and Johnny Duke is revered around here for his work in the projects.


Tommy Morrison was, is and always will be a stiff, and I half wonder if he
didn't get where he is because of a scam by the promoters like they were 
talking about on 60 Minutes last Sunday....


'Saw

 Can't wait for the Wampanoags to stage some big time matches...Will they
 be ready for the return tour of Iron Mike??????????

 mike

    
>> Hey, don't get me wrong, I like Marlon Starling.  He seemed to have it
>> all,then kind of came up a little short -- or let's say he didn't live up
>> to what might have been too big expectations.
    
    Marlon held the title for a while and had an ongoing rivalry with an
    excellent fighter named Donald Curry who walked over everyone except
    Marlon 'Moochy' Starling. Marlon's biggest drawbacks were that he
    wasn't a power puncher, something crowds love, and he was a great great
    defensive fighter, something crowds don't care for. His style wasn't
    'made-for-tv' but he was still a very very good fighter.

I don't disagree with your assessment at all Tommy.

I guess what I'm getting at was that around here, folks had these HUGE
expectations.  At the time he was fighting, NOTHING had come out of
Hartford in years, and the Whalers were mired in total "suckdom".

The kid was carrying the "Pride of Hartford" around with him, and, IMO,
it was too great a burden to ask him to carry.  Not that he ever did
a bad job with it at all, I just think folks around here expected him
to be the next Ali or even better....


I can't recall the details, but he got wickedly jobbed down in New Jersey
with a punch clearly after the bell that was allowed.  AFter that we didn't
hear much from him any more.....


'Saw

    Starling I believe was a first cousin of Michael Adams of BC and the
    Nuggets,Bullets and now Hornets.

>                  -< Micheal was no one to fool around with >-
>
>    Starling I believe was a first cousin of Michael Adams of BC and the
>    Nuggets,Bullets and now Hornets.


Michael is another Hartford story come true.  And I'd forgotten about the
relationship until you'd mentioned it.

Michael Adams does a lot for the community, in a very quiet sort of way.
Not highly publicized, but someone we watch with interest nonetheless....

    
    I think Starling was an excellent fighter. He gave Lloyd Honeyghan the
    pasting of his life, and effectively finished him. 
    
    Didn't he beat Breland as well?? (when that meant something!)
    
    Tony
    
    

    
       Saturday night I got to witness the worst decision since
      Stu Sutcliffe decided to leave an obscure group called The
      Beatles. Three blind mice gave Nigel Benn the nod over much
      traveled Juan Jimenez in a fight that Jimenez seemed to have 
      clearly won or at least a fight that Ferdie Pacheco, Bobby
      Czyz, Steve Albert and Tommy Brydie thought he won. Not only
      did Jimenez lose on the scorecards but the judges had him 
      losing badly by 4, 6 and 7 points. Amazing given that Jimenez
      carried the fight to Benn and landed more and cleaner punches. 
      Benn, on the other hand, looked lethargic and unable to get 
      untracked. He later said that he was distracted by a melee in 
      the stands that had fans turning their backs to the ring and 
      watching a much more interesting fight in the bleachers. Excuses 
      aside, Benn managed to escape with an undeserved victory. A
      fight between Benn and James Toney that once looked attractive 
      to this fight fan now looks like it'd be a date with a meat 
      grinder for Benn.

Tommy, sad to say, after watching a 60 Minutes report on the sport of
boxing several weeks ago, I wouldn't be at all surprised if some, or all,
of those judges were getting paid off......

'Saw

    
       I don't think the fight was so much fixed as the judges 
      were intimidated by the ruckus in the stands. Apparently,
      there were numerous brawls that escalated into chair throwing
      between rival fans of two local fighters who were scheduled
      to box after the Benn-Jiminez fight. Kind of bizarre to see
      the vast majority of the crowd at ringside standing with their
      backs to the ring while the boxing match was going on. The bad
      decision also could have been a case of the 'name' fighter getting 
      the nod over the journeyman. Either way, it was an awful decision.

Wow.  That sounds like it must've been a three-ring circus.

    	Hey Tommy, who do you like in the Unfinished Business - Battle
    of Has Beens this Saturday?  I say Chavez in a controversial decision.
    
    				   /Don

    
    This is now common-place in the U.K. I would say home fighters get
    about a five point swing in title fights.
    
    It saddens me to see it. For another example view Thornton v Eubanks.
    
    Tony
    
    

    
      re .588
    
        Chavez is going to walk right over Taylor. Meldrick has
       nothing left and really shouldn't even be allowed to fight
       even the likes of a declining Chavez. Taylor will be ahead
       of the game if he can get out of this fight and still be
       able to spell ko.
    
     re .589
    
        It isn't just Britain, Tony. The Chavez-Whittaker draw was
       a disgrace. Michael Spinks' first victory over Larry Holmes
       was worse. Even Ali benefited from a couple of suspect dec-
       isions. It's part of the sport that you just have to live
       with but it'd be much easier to take if their weren't so much
       collusion between the promoters and the sanctioning organizations
       so that bad decsions could be more chalked up to human error
       and less to pure greed and corruption. 

    Ali went both ways with controversial decisions.  I still feel he
    outpointed Frazier in I and Spinks in I.  Of course in Joe I he was
    knocked down late to influence decision making.

    What's with this Chavez not being allowed to lose any title fights?  Is
    he the godfather's son or what?

    
    
       And people thought I was just tweaking the Brits in 67.133 
      and 67.136 and several others. No less than the great Emmanuel
      Steward concurred with me that Lewis has regressed not progressed.
      Depsite the loss, Lewis still has the most raw talent in the div-
      ision, the question is whether or not time has passed him by.

    After he got hit he looked like Gumby.
    
    Good call by the ref.
    
    Mark.

A lot of people (even in Britain) have been dubious of Lewis, at the
latest since the Bruno fight.  Apparently (I didn't see it), he was
being made to look generally incompetent until he landed a lucky punch.

He has been telling the British press for months that he's working on
this or that aspect of his skills, but the suspicion is that deep down
he figures he can always land a winning shot.  No way he should have
lost this one.  Can't anybody out there fight?

The card I'm sorry to have missed (we get very little boxing on German
TV) was the one with Randall-Coggi, Chavez-[the mortal remains of]Taylor,
and the wonderful Ricardo Lopez, among many others.

Steve

    Not knowing much about boxing when I watched the highlights (lowlights)
    I didnt even know which guy was which but after hearing so much about
    lewis in this notes file I thought he threw that punch and was saying
    to myself WOW this guy is good, when they ever said the lewis was the
    one looking like he just came out of a coma.. WHO AM I WHERE AM I WHATS
    GOING ON...I was shocked...
    
    He was totaly out of it, had no idea what was going on around him, pure
    instincts got him off the mat, his mind was mush for a good minute...
    
    Will be intresting to see if King gives him his rematch...
    
    								mab

    
      There's a picture on the front page of the Globe's sports 
     section with Don King flanked by Oliver McCall on his right
     and local heavyweight Pete McNeely on his right. The three
     are touting McCall's first title defense which supposedly 
     will be against McNeely. The angle is that McNeely's grand-
     father fought on the card when the Garden opened and McNeely
     wil fight on the card as the Garden nears its close. Of course,
     this fight will more than likely signal the close of all brain
     function for McNeely although whether anyone will notice is
     open for debate. Yes, McCall is mediocre but McNeely is med-
     iocrer (to coin a phrase). A list of McNeely's opponents reads
     more like a 'Who's that?' than a 'Who's who'. It's not an accident
     either. Don King (MCNeely's promoter) knows there's no surer way
     to make a million in boxing than to have a charismatic, white heavy-
     weight challenging for the title. It's money in the bank and then
     some. Never mind that McNeely hasn't beaten a top ten fighter in
     his entire career. He doesn;t have to. Never mind that McNeely was 
     stopped by Stanley Wright. I know - Stanley who? The fight is to be 
     sanctioned by the WBC and King and WBC kingpin, Jose Sulaiman are 
     soulmates (and maybe someday cellmates) so McNeely is miraculously 
     a top ten contender. Not for long.

>     either. Don King (MCNeely's promoter) knows there's no surer way
>     to make a million in boxing than to have a charismatic, white heavy-
>     weight challenging for the title. It's money in the bank and then
>     some. Never mind that McNeely hasn't beaten a top ten fighter in


Agree 100%.  

This was a highlight of the 60 Minutes segment on boxing.  Anytime you
can get a white heavyweight in there, you can make money.  It's axiomatic
in boxing.


In a related story, Lampley and (forget his name) from HBO are taking heat
from a lot of folks for their reaction to the stoppage of the fight.
Russ Greenberg, from HBO Sports, talking with Mike and the Mad Dog yesterday
on WFAN, said that they didn't overreact.

Did anyone see it on HBO and did Lampley and (his name's on the tip of
my tongue) really go nuts because the ref stopped it?


'Saw

    
    
    Larry Merchant

Yeah!  That's the guy.

Try as I might I couldn't pull his name up from my memory banks.  I could
see his face and hear his voice, but couldn't think of the name...


'Saw

    
    
         I can't stand him his Ego precedes his every move. I loved it when
    Tyson Dissed him.
    
    
    
    Chap

    
      >> I can't stand him his Ego precedes his every move. I loved it when
      >> Tyson Dissed him.
    
         Yup. He's just like George Will and Frank Deford in the way that 
         he's so enthralled with his own voice and his ability to verbalize 
         his thoughts that he makes a fool of himself elevating mere games 
         and contests into Homeric struggles. What's more is that he can
         only analyze the matches in retrospect and not as they unfold
         before him. Tyson blowing him off really was a classic and a long
         time coming.

 Tommy, nice article in the Times today on Sweetpea. They don't give
 Buddy a chance. The fight is on HBO tomorrow nite. I can't wait
 to see it. I think Sweetpea can survive even my KOD........

 mike

     >> Tommy, nice article in the Times today on Sweetpea. They don't
     >> give Buddy a chance. The fight is on HBO tomorrow nite. I can't 
     >> wait to see it. I think Sweetpea can survive even my KOD........
    
        They don't give Buddy a chance? Buddy MCGirt busted shoulder and
        all gave Pernell Whittaker all that he could handle in their first
        bout. Buddy is a very solid, ring savvy, New York-style fighter.
        He's going to give Pernell all that he can handle and is quite
        capable of winning. Of course, as Pernell showed against Chavez,
        he can rise to the occasion so he may be more prepared for McGirt
        this time around. Even so, I don't see this fight as a blowout.
        It probably will be the best bout this year, though.

I agree, Tommy, and I wish I were going to be able to see this one.
Buddy McGirt is one of my very favorite fighters, lightning fast,
brilliant footwork, very heady, as good as anybody at making you
miss and hitting you while you're off balance.  I'll be pulling
for him, all the while having nothing but the greatest respect for
Pernell.

Steve

Refresh my aging memory:

	McGirt and Whitaker -- Welterweights?


'Saw

correct Saw.........that ought to make your day.....

 ;^)

>
>correct Saw.........that ought to make your day.....
>

Yeah, that and the fact that someone special has a rather romantic evening
planned for the Chainsaw this evening....

Add it all up, and I'm on Cloud Nine today....

Now, if only my Giants-Saints pick works out 8^)


'Saw

    >>Yeah, that and the fact that someone special has a rather romantic
    >>evening planned for the Chainsaw this evening....
     
    Say hi to Rosie and her sisters for me, 'Saw.
    
    
    billl

 get those Under bets in now Folks...line could be dropping tomorrow....

 ;^)

>
> get those Under bets in now Folks...line could be dropping tomorrow....
>
> ;^)
>

hahahaha.... you slay me Mike....8^)


Another buddy of mine, Don Rooney, was thinking of giving his girlfriend
a ring last year.  I was on him like white on rice all the time "Didja give
her the ring yet?"

Well, he's returning the favor now, and the other evening he says
"Didja give her the ring yet?"

I said "I told you know, it's too soon"

He says "Well, just makin' sure"

I said "Yep, I am too....."


So Mike, keep your eye on The Line....

    Ok without reading thru all these notes, when Does George Forman fight
    again ? And who is he fighting ? For What (Title) ?
    
    								mab

    
    
        Michael Moorer I think in Nov.
    
    
    
    Chap

He's gonna fight Michael Moorer for that version of the crown.

TTom

So if George actually shows up in a fighting mood (as opposed to the
grandfatherly approach he took to Tommy Morrison) and catches Moorer's
suspect chin a couple, we could be looking at this:

LADEEEEEEZ AND GENTLEMEN: The Heavyweight Champion of the World...

	. according to the IBF and WBA: Foreman
	. according to the WBC        : McCall
	. according to the WBO        : Herbie Hide

The WBO might actually have the most credible champion.  Impossible.

I'm beginning to suspect that I'm actually a character in a novel by
Franz Kafka.  Baseball on strike.  Hockey locked out.  Digital in the
toilet.  And the heavyweight championship belt in the garbage can
where Riddick Bowe pitched it--and belonging there!

That's it.  On that note, I'm outta here.  Til November...

Steve

    
    
    
    Or Moorer could beat Foreman. Than when Tyson gets out of jail (wrongly
    convicted) he beats McCall, Bowe beats Moorer. Than Bowe and Tyson get
    it on.
    
           Who cares about the WBO
    
    Chap

 Too bad Buddy didn't have a left arm. Could have been an interesting
 fight if he did. For those that missed it Pernell won an unanamous
 decison. Won big to like 10 rounds to 2 on most cards. He is a joy 
 to watch could be one of the greatest ever if he had a KO punch. His
 inability to knock guys out cost him greatness points I'm afraid.

 mike

 >> Too bad Buddy didn't have a left arm. 

    That flyswatting motion with his left hand that Buddy was using used
    to be a devastating left hook. That pushing motion with his left used
    to be a stiff left jab. Neither punch could break a wet tissue these
    days. Buddy says that he can't make the weight at 147 anymore and he's
    moving up. I say that he hasn't recovered from rotator cuff surgery
    and probably never will and he should hang 'em up. Of course he won't
    and he'll get a real pasting by some junior middleweight.
    

The comeback by former heavyweight champ Leon Spinks aint lookin too
good. 

Spinks was knocked out in the first round over the weekend. Supposedly,
he hit the canvas before he threw a punch.

TTom

    
         All part of Leon's ingenious, diabolical plan to land
        a title belt within a year. I'm sure Moorer and McCall
        both think that they have nothing to fear from Leon.
        Fools!

Leon would have done more damage if he'd have driven into the ring!

    
    Any truth to the rumor that Leon is moving to England, renouncing his
    US citizenship, becoming a British citizen, becming the reigning
    British Champ, and bringing that country back to its rightful place in
    the heavyweight boxing world?
    
    No?  OK, how about any truth to the rumor that when Leon moves to
    England he helps to raise the average IQ in Britain?
    
    brews

It's boxing, right, so don't be surprised...

Newly crowned Oliver McCall who knocked out Lennox Lewis with one punch
has signed to fight his firsted title defense. The opponent? Larry
Holmes.

Here's hoping Holmes wins.

TTom

    
         To make matters worse, local guy Peter McNeeley, who
        is about as threatening as Anne B. Davis, is promised
        the winner. As much as I'd like to see the best fight 
        the best, I really cant get too upset about these mach-
        inations because right now the heavyweight ranks are
        about as talentless as they've been in 40 years. If 
        Michael Moorer, Oliver McCall and Herbie Hide were each
        to fight each other, it would certainly be more enter-
        taining than watching 45 year old Larry Holmes (sagging
        breasts and all) lumber about the ring but it would
        be no less depressing because none of the three is fit
        to be champ. If you were to take the best qualities of
        all three you still wouldn't have a decent champ. Now
        perhaps more than ever the best fighters are in the lower
        weight classes.
        

After the retirement of Marciano and Cus D'Amato owning the championship with 
Patterson, the good heavyweights like Zora Folley and several others (Liston)
were frozen out from fighting for the championship.

Several years were used up with the three Johannson fights until finally, succum-
bing to pressure D'Amato put Patterson in to be murdered (twice) by Liston.

There were good heavyweights but Floyd wasn't one of them.

Billte

The J fights were entertaining but not at the highest skill level.  It is generally
conceded that D'Amato undertrained Patterson for I knowing he could win the 
return(s).  After that came the no-rematch rules.

    
    
      What is going to happen in May/June when Mike gets outta the pen.  I
    sort of thoought he'd have a few tune ups and destroy Bowe for the
    title but they might as well just hand him the belts as he's leaving
    the joint.  I'm not a huge fight fan but like a good go now and again
    but to watch someone dope like Holmes stroll in on his walker to fight
    for the Heavyweight Championship of the world is ludicrious.  So let me
    quess who gets the winner of the McNeely fight Ali or Frazier???
    
    Jerry

Jerry,

The scenario scripted by Don King is that his new guy McCall will fight
his old buy Tyson.

They started the hype the morning after Lewis lost. And speaking of Ali
and Frazier, McCall assured us all that his fight with Tyson would be
bigger'n the Thrilla in Manila.

Of course, this assumes that McCall doesn't lose to another nobody owned
by Don King.

TTom

    Well, all you fans pugilism out there are no doubt waiting with
    breathless anticipation the fight this Saturday night in Las Vegas. 
    The Moorer-Foreman bout - NO.
    
    We are talking about the huge undercard event - Bonnaduce vs Kirkham.
    
    Yes, that Danny Bonaduce.  I can hear those PPV line ringing off the
    hook.
    
    Has boxing really gotten so bad as to even stage an event like this?
    
    UMDan