Conference hbahba::cam_sports

	1.  Will somebody buy this team?

	2.  Will somebody coach this team?

	3.  Will somebody manage this team?

	4.  Will anybody want to play for this team?

	5.  Will somebody build a new stadium?

	6.  Will Billy Bulger let them?

	7.  Will Mr Orthwein move this team to St. Louis?

	8.  Will anybody care if he does?

	9.  Will anybody notice if he does?

	10. Will this team win another game?

From: [email protected] (United Press International)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.misc,clari.sports.top

Subject: Patriots not for sale ... yet
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 17:38:21 EST

	FOXBORO, Mass. (UPI) -- The New England Patriots, coming off a 2-14
season, said Monday they have begun looking for a coach and general
manager, the first steps in an overhaul of the team.
	Mike O'Hallaron, the club's vice chairman, said only once those
positions are filled and the direction of the team set will club owner
James Orthwein address plans to sell the franchise.
	``When Mr. Orthwein feels comfortable, the Patriots will be for sale,
'' O'Hallaron said at a news conference. ``However, at the present time
no offers are being entertained.''
	Orthwein is likely to get the first bid from Fran Murray, a former
owner of 49 percent of the team. Orthwein expects several bids and the
selling price could be about $110 million, although he would not confirm
that figure.
	More immediately, Orthwein will interview coaching and general
manager candidates in St. Louis, where he lives. It is not yet clear if
the two positions will be incorporated into one.
	Dick MacPherson was fired as coach of the Patriots last Friday, and
General Manager Sam Janovich resigned the next day.
	``We will have the right person or persons in place as quickly as
possible, hopefully within the next 10 days,'' O'Hallaron said.
	O'Hallaron said Orthwein began receiving offers from local groups as
early as last May, when Orthwein purchased majority interest of the team
from Victor Kiam.
	At the time, Orthwein said he would not be the owner ``indefinitely,''
nor would he move the team to another city. Orthwein will serve as
chairman and chief executive officer for a St. Louis franchise if the
NFL awards a team to the city.
	``Mr. Orthwein has no intentions of moving the franchise out of New
England,'' O'Hallaron said. ``Jim's goal is to build a winning football
team. I don't know how much longer he'll own the team. But you can be
sure that as long as he does, he feels an obligation to make it as good
as he possibly can. We believe that an NFL franchise must have local
identity to succeed.''
	Orthwein is said to have paid $86 million for the team and assumed
another $20 million in obligations. The team reportedly lost $4 million
this past season.
	Whoever owns the Patriots must assume a lease with the owners of
Foxboro Stadium that runs through 2006. O'Hallaron said Orthwein hopes a
football stadium/convention center can be built.
	``It would not only benefit the Patriots but be helpful in attracting
revenues from conventions and their associated business,'' O'Hallaron
said.
	The Patriots, who shared the league's worst record with the Seattle
Seahawks, have the first pick in the April draft.

	1.  Will somebody buy this team?
             (yes)

	2.  Will somebody coach this team?
             (yes)

	3.  Will somebody manage this team?
             (no that is the coach's job)

	4.  Will anybody want to play for this team?
             (no but the draft still exists)

	5.  Will somebody build a new stadium?
             (aren't the braves building a new stadium ?)

	6.  Will Billy Bulger let them?
             (only if Joe Walton picks em' will buger let em')

	7.  Will Mr Orthwein move this team to St. Louis?
             (Orthwein Pigstein who cares)

	8.  Will anybody care if he does?
             (see above)

	9.  Will anybody notice if he does?
             
	10. Will this team win another game?
             (only if Dan reeves is at the helm)

Boy with Lou Gorman's Plan in place for the 1993 Red Sox, the Celts
treading water, the Broons preparing for their annual imitation of
the Rangers, and the utter chaos of the Pats, it sure is a good
year to be a Boston fan, eh?

JD

    If the Cards don't hire Ditka, this team better.

	1.  Will somebody buy this team?
          I'll sell my DEC stock for it...
	2.  Will somebody coach this team?
          Sure, you want to... nah. we'll get Ninj to manage it.
	3.  Will somebody manage this team?
          I did ok with fantasy football, why is this different?
	4.  Will anybody want to play for this team?
          Nah, I'll get Doc to be QB, everyone else will quit (haha)
	5.  Will somebody build a new stadium?
          No, stay down there, just put in seats, to replace the benches.
	6.  Will Billy Bulger let them?
          See 5)
	7.  Will Mr Orthwein move this team to St. Louis?
          Can you say Bud-Weiser?
	8.  Will anybody care if he does?
          You will, that means Lisa goes with them...
	9.  Will anybody notice if he does?
          See 8)
	10. Will this team win another game?
           Who cares...
    
    Who's left there?  Is Lisa Coles the highest ranking position there?
    Let her be GM.  Get some new uniforms, let the cheerleaders be the
    coaches.  
    

    Walt #5 is a classic, I almost spit out my lunch.  Send it to the Doc!
    
    Jimbo

    Yeah, but am I wrong?

    Rumor has it that the Pats have an offer on the table to Bill Parcells.

>    Rumor has it that the Pats have an offer on the table to Bill Parcells.

If so, then Orthwein seems to have more gray matter than George Young....

    Lemme ask a real dumb question.
    
    Why the hail would Orthwein offer the job to Parcells when da franchise
    is in disarray, needs to be stabilized and THEN sold to a local buyer.
    I woulda thunk that Orthwein woulda hired a_interim type coach for less
    bucks(Say a Ryan), stabilize da team, sell it to Fireman,
    THEN take off to San Loooie wif an expansion team and THEN offer
    Parcells THAT job??
    
    Either that or he offers Parcells the Pats job, and eventually moves
    the franchise to San Looie and THEN NE gits an expansion team!!
    
    Am I that far off?
    
    MikeL
    
    
    

    Parcells has priced him self out and Buddy Ryan is in..
    
    REK

If Orthwein can land Parcells, it may allow him to get more when/if
he sells the team.  Ryan and Ditka may have a similar effect, but I
can't see any prospective buyer not wanting Parcells.  

I think Orthwein is going to hold on to the team until he gets an
expansion club.  If he doesn't get one, blackouts won't be a problem
around here anymore.

Mike

    
    The Pats have to hire a coach, and soon, or they'll be in a lot of
    trouble for next year and perhaps longer, and no prospective owner is
    going to like that.  Given that, I think that Bill Parcells is as
    good as anyone to have in place when the franchise is sold.  What's the
    price of a coach such as Parcells, anyway?  Per year, what they paid to 
    Hugh Millen last year?  At absolute worst, Orthwein may have to
    subsidize the salary in order to sell the team.  Big deal, maybe
    another couple million out of $100M+.  The guy wants out, and he wants
    his expansion franchise.  Other than that, what right-minded intelligent 
    owner is going to object to Parcells (don't say anything, Giants' fans!)?
    I think this issue has been completely overrated by the local media,
    which loved Dick MacPherson, in spite of his obvious and glaring 
    shortcomings (including his health, and, yes, age).  The question is
    simple: do the Patriots ever want to get serious and win, or do they
    want to be "entertaining", as in the circus?
    
    Buddy Ryan is another story.  He'd be a good candidate to get fired the
    minute the ink is dry.  If Buddy Ryan is named the head coach of the
    Pats, I predict that it will only turn out to be the latest fiasco in a
    long history of fiascos for the New England Patriots.  Going from
    Parcells to Ryan is penthouse to the outhouse, imo.
    
    glenn                                        
    

    Didn't Parcells leave the Giants partly due to health reasons?

>    Didn't Parcells leave the Giants partly due to health reasons?


That's been my contention for a while.  But he's had his ticker fixed, and
changed his lifestyle a bit.  (I thought I'd heard that he had quit
smoking, but I might be wrong).....


'Saw

Parcells left the Giants as much because of burnout as anything else.

Apparently the issue with Parcells and NE is Parcells wants language in
his contract protecting him if the team is sold.

The Crazy Met

Have an unconfirmed report that Parcells has been named Head
Coach of the Patriots.

JD

    Someone in the Patriouts conference says he called the Globe to ask
    about the Parcells rumors and was told that the Pats HAVE NOT made an
    offer to Parcells.
    
    Seems they're denying their own story.

    -1,
    Patriouts? I like that Mac. Intentional? TM that baby.
    
    BTW Pats sip.
    
    Was listening to dynamic duo from the FAN ( Mike da mouf and Chris
    the Laughin' Hyena) on the way back from a meeting. Thay say neither
    Parcells to the Pats or Reeves to the Jints is in da bag. 
    HAHA if the Pats do land Parcells, those two maroons will be blasting
    George  "I wanna look like Peter Boyle in Young Frankenstein" Young
    all over the place.  Po Po Jints, nobody wants ta coach 'em. 
    
    MikeL
     

    Freudian Slip, MikeL.  I saw it and was gonna correct it, but CAM3 is
    so darn slow that I left it.  I figured someone would get a kick out of
    it.

>    Was listening to dynamic duo from the FAN ( Mike da mouf and Chris
>    the Laughin' Hyena) on the way back from a meeting. Thay say neither
>    Parcells to the Pats or Reeves to the Jints is in da bag. 
>    HAHA if the Pats do land Parcells, those two maroons will be blasting
>    George  "I wanna look like Peter Boyle in Young Frankenstein" Young
>    all over the place.  Po Po Jints, nobody wants ta coach 'em. 
    
Mike Francessa and Chris "The Mad Dog" Russo, are split on the Parcells
issue vis-�-vis the Giants.  Mike feels that if Parcells was interested
he could have called Young, but Russo feels not.

They are right (or were as of last night) about stuff being in the bag.

As to them blasting Young if Parcells signs with the Pats, I doubt it.
The fans will be.   

Francessa probably put it best the day Handley was fired:

	If Young doesn't sign Parcells, and Parcells signs with
	someone else and turns that club around, and IF Young
	signs someone who spend the next three years with the
	Giants wallowing around, then Young will be in jeopardy.....



'Saw     

I heard this AM that the Pats are holding a press conference at 11:15 today
(2:15 Eastern) to announce Parcells as coach AND General Mgr.

Doug

>   <<< Note 56.13 by FDCV06::KING "The Jessinator, Not just a child!!!!!" >>>

>    Parcells has priced him self out and Buddy Ryan is in..
    
>    REK
    
Thanks for the scoop!  (smiley goes here)
    
    Article 6008 of clari.sports.football:
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From: [email protected] (UPI)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.football,clari.local.new_england,clari.local.massachusetts,clari.sports.top
Subject: Patriots said to offer coaching job to Parcells
Keywords: football, men's professional
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 16:09:10 PST
Location: new england states, massachusetts
ACategory: sports
Slugword: fbn-parcells
Priority: major
Format: regular
ANPA: Wc: 163/155; Id: z6751; Sel: xbsf; Adate: 1-20-145pes; V: sked
Approved: [email protected]
Codes: ysfprxb., &sfprma., tbza....
Lines: 15

	BOSTON (UPI) -- Bill Parcells, the former coach of the New York
Giants, will be offered the New England Patriots' coaching job, the
Boston Globe reported Wednesday.
	The newspaper said club owner James Orthwein and his top aides have
agreed on offering Parcells a lucrative, long-term contract.
	Mike Ditka, recently fired as coach of the Chicago Bears, and Buddy
Ryan, former coach of the Philadelphia Eagles, also were interviewed.
	Dick MacPherson was fired as coach of the Patriots this month and the
man who fired him, Sam Jankovich, the chief executive officer, resigned
the following day.
	The Patriots finished 2-14 this year, tied with Seattle for the NFL's
worst record. New England owns the first pick in the April draft.
	Parcells led the Giants to two Super Bowl titles before resigning in
1991. He has worked as a television commentator for NBC the last two
seasons.


    

    LIKE I SAID EARLIER... Bill Parcells is the new Coach/GM of the
    NE Pats... It was just announced at a press conf. in Boston...
    
    REK

    any decent coach would need both positions to clean that mess!

This has some VERY interesting implications for George Young.


The WORST scenario that George Young could imagine is that Parcells comes
in, and within two or three years turns the Pats around and takes them
to the Bowl, while the Giants are still rebuilding.   

An almost as worse scenario would be if Parcells gets the Pats to the
Bowl, where they meet and beat a Reeves-coached Giants squad.


Either way, the second guessers and NY media will have a field day 
with Young, who could have had Parcells but for some pride....



Congrats Bill!  Hope you take 'em all the way!!!!!


'Saw

re: .31

Please 'Saw anything but Parcells taking NE to a SB championship. Papers
around here border on the insufferable already. (.5 :-)

The Crazy Met

>Please 'Saw anything but Parcells taking NE to a SB championship. Papers
>around here border on the insufferable already. (.5 :-)
>
>The Crazy Met

I'd love to see it.

He did it with the Giants, who were almost as bad as this year's Pats.
The Giants were 3-12-1, and within three seasons they had won the 
Bowl.   George Young was the GM, and a case could be made that George
might not be the BEST GM around, so perhaps Bill could do a better
job on that end....

The Pats are another cold weather team, so look for the typical Parcells
offense, which works well late in the season.

Yeah, it's entirely plausible that he could turn the franchise around....


'Saw

                                        
    Yes!  This is the best thing to happen to the Patriots since Chuck
    Fairbanks.  And to think that the media has been all over James 
    Orthwein for knowing nothing about football.  That's been the problem; 
    past owners *thought* they knew football, and were afraid to turn the
    whole thing over to someone who does...
    
    glenn
    

Pats fans, here's some stuff to expect:

*  Don't expect a winner right away.  Parcels was 3-12-1 wif the Giants in year
    1, I believe.

*  Don't be surprised if you see some familiar Giants faces on the Pats
    sidelines (I won't be surprised to see LT or Simms...)

*  Expect the offense to be smash mouth.  Remember Parcells' motto is:
    "Power wins football games".

*  He'll build a team that can win in the cold in November and December.

It'll be interesting, although I don't go to the heights of hoping for 
Pats success like Chainsaw.

BTW, the Chainsaw has been noted praising hte Cowboys and the Pats, hmm,
his standing as a Giants fan must be questioned. 

JD

>*  Don't expect a winner right away.  Parcels was 3-12-1 wif the Giants in year
>    1, I believe.

Yes, and they almost fired him.  The nexted season the Giants were back
in the playoffs, losing to San Fran in the second round, 21-10.


>*  Don't be surprised if you see some familiar Giants faces on the Pats
>    sidelines (I won't be surprised to see LT or Simms...)

A lot of talk on WFAN about this.  There is some speculation that Parcells
wouldn't do this, as he has "turned the page on the Giants".



>*  Expect the offense to be smash mouth.  Remember Parcells' motto is:
>    "Power wins football games".

Parcells said that anyone not willing to work hard would be asked to
leave.


>*  He'll build a team that can win in the cold in November and December.

Yep.  I agree 100%.


>It'll be interesting, although I don't go to the heights of hoping for 
>Pats success like Chainsaw.

I'd like to see Parcells do well.  The better Parcells does, the worse
it looks for George Young, who I am beginning to doubt.



>BTW, the Chainsaw has been noted praising hte Cowboys and the Pats, hmm,
>his standing as a Giants fan must be questioned. 

Do me, JD. 8^)

I haven't praised the Cowboys.  I just said that I respected what they
have done with their football team in three season.  Any football
fan would say the same thing.

I haven't praised the Pats.  I am a big Parcells fan, and I want to 
see him do well......



'Saw

    Since I moved away from NE, I haven't followed the team that close.
    
    Is John Stephens trying any harder than a few years back?  Would he be
    traded away if Parcy wasn't happy with his motivation?
    
    I seemed to remember an always hurts, semi-productive Stephens after
    his first great year...

�*  Don't be surprised if you see some familiar Giants faces on the Pats
�    sidelines (I won't be surprised to see LT or Simms...)
    
    I'd be very surprised to see Simms.  The Pats already have 3 QBs they
    don't know what to do with and there is a push to get a 4th (Bledsoe or
    Mirer).
    
�*  Expect the offense to be smash mouth.  Remember Parcells' motto is:
�    "Power wins football games".
    
    Pats fans have been calling that "boring football".  It will be
    interesting to see how they accept Parcells' offense.  FWIW, the Pats
    have been trying smash mouth football under the last 3 or 4 coaches. 
    It hasn't been that successful since Hannah retired, but I think as
    this young OL continues to gain experience with each other it will get
    better.  They have a few guys who could become 100 yd/game rushers
    again.
    
�*  Don't expect a winner right away.  Parcels was 3-12-1 wif the Giants in year
�    1, I believe.
    
    I don't and hope the fans and front office show the patience required
    to rebuild this team.  I think Mac was canned prematurely because he
    didn't bring the Pats to the playoffs in his second season.

    Chip, Stephens started showing signs of his rookie season this past
    year.  I think he'll do just fine, or at the very least the Pats will
    get a decent player/draft pick in return from him should they decide to
    go with Russell.

Re: Stevens

The past two seasons his role has been different than his rookie year.  He was 
the running back as a rookie, but mid way through last year he was given the 
starting fullback job.  With his primary responisbility being to block for
Russell or Vaughn, he seemed to be reborn.  Later in both seasons he got a few
carries, as well as some passes out into the flat where he looked good.

>    I'd be very surprised to see Simms.  The Pats already have 3 QBs they
>    don't know what to do with and there is a push to get a 4th (Bledsoe or
>    Mirer).

My best guess is that they grab Bledsoe.

    
>    Pats fans have been calling that "boring football".  It will be
>    interesting to see how they accept Parcells' offense.  FWIW, the Pats
>    have been trying smash mouth football under the last 3 or 4 coaches. 
>    It hasn't been that successful since Hannah retired, but I think as
>    this young OL continues to gain experience with each other it will get
>    better.  They have a few guys who could become 100 yd/game rushers
>    again.

Giants fans ragged on Parcells offense for years as being boring.  And
it was, but it ate up the clock, kept the ball away from the other team's
offense, and won football games.

I would have preferred a slightly more open offense, but hey, two Super
Bowls ain't bad.

The ONE big drawback of the Giants offense to me was the fact that they
were not a quick strike offense, and if they got down big, it was pretty
much over.  Of course, with their Defense, that rarely happened.

    
>    I don't and hope the fans and front office show the patience required
>    to rebuild this team.  I think Mac was canned prematurely because he
>    didn't bring the Pats to the playoffs in his second season.

I don't know if he can bring them to the 'offs in two years, but he
did it with the Giants.

If Parcells can work his magic the team will be competitive though....


'Saw

� Congrats Bill!  Hope you take 'em all the way!!!!!


� 'Saw

	He will 'Saw.  All the way to Saint Looee...

				/Don

      Parcells won't rest til they get to the big one?  The man will die
    from exhaustion;^)
    
      Tim

    FWIW Tommy,
    That old NBC/Globe sage Will McDonough agrees with ya on Jones of
    FSU. Or didya steal that from him??
    
    Muchos
    MikeL
    

    
    Didn't Stevans also severly injure some guy and end his career and
    then, in addition to the injuries, develop into a bit of a head case?
    
    ????
    

    /Don, you callin' Orthwein a liar?

>               <<< Note 56.50 by AXIS::ROBICHAUD "Zo� Must Go" >>>
                                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^


She's gone already, Slasher.


Time to reprise the "skin bus" p-name.....


'Saw

    

    naughty, naughty 'Saw. See i don't mind much but last time someone tokk
    this type of topic out of the p-name realm by using ^^^^ his hands
    got slapped by one of the mods. JaKE I would protest big time :-)
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    >>got slapped by one of the mods. JaKE I would protest big time :-)
                                      ^^^^
    
    The only thing I'll protest is your inept ablility to use the shift key
    properly.
    
    JaKe
    

    	Let's get this topic back on track and talk about the St. Louis
    Patriots!
    
    				/Don

    re: .53
    
    wimp
    
    :-)
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Hey dweeb, who ya callin' a wimp????
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

	Here comes the King here comes the Big Number One.
	Budweiser beer, the beer that's second to none.

	Move to St. Louis, and bring Parcells,
	And ol Foxboro can just go to hell....

	Da da da da da dada dada da daaaaaaaaa
	Da da da da da dada dada da daaaaaaaaa
	Da da da daaaa da, da da da da da
	da da da da da da da da da da da da da ad da da.....

    The Pats won't draft Mirer or Bledsoe to hand the ball off.  Unless
    they trade the pick, it'll be Marvin Jones.  You can dominate from the
    linebacker position, whereas you need some help to dominate from the
    down lineman position.  So I can't see them taking either of the guys
    from 'bama.
    
    					Steve

>    The Pats won't draft Mirer or Bledsoe to hand the ball off.  Unless
>    they trade the pick, it'll be Marvin Jones.  You can dominate from the
>    linebacker position, whereas you need some help to dominate from the
>    down lineman position.  So I can't see them taking either of the guys
>    from 'bama.
    
I thought a lot about this this past weekend and I tend to agree.

I also lost sight of the fact that Parcells is of the school of thought
that Defense wins Championships.   That means that he probably will
attempt to bolster the defense first....


I heard Season Tickets sales are going through the roof....


'Saw

    
    	Lots of talk on the radio about changing the teams name, color
    and logo.
    
    	some of the ideas....
    
    			Boston Warlocks
    			Boston Warlords
    			Boston Bulldogs
    		 	Boston Beaners
    			Boston Gas
    
    		Re:  Boston Gas - This guy wanted to take the logo and
    				turn the guy around.  :-)
    
    
    
    	WOOF!

Actually, I'm surprised.

In 1976 the organization wanted to "update" the Patriot symbol, with
a newer, more stylized version, and the fans totally voted it down.


I wish Ninj' was around so we could get some "poop" on what's going on....


'Saw

    Still using the same sources you got all your Browns' news from, I see,
    Hal.
    
    Pats sold over 750 season tickets last Thursday.  The ticket office was
    open all weekend.  People were driving to Foxborough because they
    couldn't get through on the phones.  Football fever has gripped the
    Hub.

                              
    Just goes to show you what is possible if you use a little business
    sense.  Past Patriots' owners would have scoffed at Parcells' asking
    price (as they did with many key players), but before the equipment has
    even been unpacked from last season, Parcells has already generated
    several hundred thousand dollars in new season ticket applications. 
    This is money in the bank collecting interest, money coming in before
    even the renewals are due.
    
    I still like Bledsoe.  I liken the guy's situation to that of Terry
    Bradshaw, in that's he raw, very young, and is coming to the pros from
    a school that isn't known as a perennial power, so he's a bit 
    underrated if not underpublicized.  The kid is still only *20* years 
    old!  To be that big and fast and talented and yet only 20 is highly
    remarkable (not like Vinnie Testaverde's situation, coming out at 24 
    after being red-shirted and/or held back in both high school and 
    college, and maybe even grade school, if the truth be known).  As the
    Dallas Cowboys have proved, there are many ways to build a top-notch
    defense, but very rarely does a franchise QB come for free (and the
    'Boys made the right choice going after Aikman first even though they
    were a pathetic team with many needs at the time).
    
    I trust Bill Parcells with whatever decision he makes, though.  As the
    man himself said at the press conference, he's one of the best talent
    evaluators in the business, and no one thought for a minute that the
    statement was egotistical. 
    
    glenn
    

    
    Heard a rumor that Bledsoe MIGHT state that he wants to play near home
    and that , like Mr. Ed, if a certain team drafts him, he'll refuse to
    sign with them    ^-(St. Louis?)
    
    Him making that statement hurts the Pats & puts Seattle in a win (no
    trade needed) - win (we get the QB anyway) situation.
    
    Metz, hear anything of this in yo' backyard?
    
    I remain,
    wanting Jones,
    Kev
    

>    and that , like Mr. Ed, if a certain team drafts him, he'll refuse to
>    sign with them    ^-(St. Louis?)
    
If the StL is a question about who first drafted Mr. Ed, it was
Baltimore.....


'Saw

      Isn't the QB that won the heisman coming out in the draft?  Gino
    Terretta or somfin like that.
    
      A heisman is a sure winner, just ask uncle al;^)

    
    >  It doesn't hurt Aikman that he has the best running back in the
    >  league to hand off to, one of the best receivers in the league to
    >  throw to and one of the best lines in the league to stand behind.
    >  All he has to do is not screw up. Bledsoe ain't gonna have that
    >  luxury.
    
    That's true enough now, Tommy, and it was true with Aikman when the
    Cowboys were 1-15.  Similarly, the Patriots will have to build at many
    positions, and like the Cowboys they won't get that done with a single 
    #1 pick, regardless of where they go.  But I don't think you give 
    Aikman enough credit.  He does more than just "not screw up".  In 
    fact, George Seifert commented that Aikman as much as anyone was the 
    guy who beat his team.  Seifert claimed that they knew what everyone 
    else could do and what they had to do to stop them, and that indeed 
    they had some early success at slowing down Emmitt Smith, but Aikman 
    was damn near perfect.  The kid is a critical piece to the team, not 
    just a lever-puller... 
    
    glenn
    
    

    It deeply pains me to admit this, but I have a hunch that Nother
    Shame's Mirer will be a very good NFL QB.

Bledsoe has repeatedly said that he will play for whatever team drafts him.
He's said it 5 times now and still gets stories written that he'll pull an
Elway. An article in the paper out here said that the Seahawks should try 
and trade up (from the #2 spot) to ensure that they get Bledsoe..Ho-Ho-Ho.

I'd be very happy with the FSU linebacker at the #2 spot or if the Hawks
traded down and picked up some quality O-lineman and Mirer. Decent Qb's can
be gotten via the trade or free agency route. I still think that the Pats
will follow Tommy's theory and draft Graves and the Hawks will pick up Bledsoe 
with the #2 pick.

Toretta won't amount to anything inthe pro's. He's Vinnie Testeverde V2.


Metz
 

    Mirer had another less than mediocre game yesterday in the (mumble,
    mumble) All-Star game.  He was 6-15 for 86 yards with 2 INT, and one 
    the completions was a 60+ yarder.  This is a guy who couldn't generate
    much of an offense behind five HS all-americans in the o-line who
    averaged 285 pounds per man, unless he was playing some sub-standard
    big-time pretender like BC.  Mirer will do better once he's away from
    Holtz, but he looks a lot like Browning Nagle to me!
    
    As for naming the Pats, my favorite nickname was the Boston Stranglers.
    The caller suggested a noose for a logo on the side of the helmets.
    And when someone screwed up, you could hang him in effigy in the
    papers.  Lots of possibilities.
    
    NAZZ

    
    Comment by Dale Arnold on the present logo:
    
    	" I mean LOOK at the guy. Look at the expression on his face.  The
    guy looks like he's trying to take a DUMP!"
    
    
    

    Nazz,
    I've seen Mirer on many occasion and I still think the jury is out
    on him. I noticed vast improvement in the latter half of '92 but
    he dooes have his moments of mediocrity/ineptitude ( see Stanford '92).
    Whereas I agree that he MIGHT have done better stats-wise in more
    open offense than Holtz', is not Parcells projected offense similar
    to ND's? Emphasis on solid running game, ball control and a structured
    controlled passing game?
    
    MikeL
    

    
    	The only way I'd root for the Pats is if they change their name,
    team color, logo and field location.  So, for me to drop the Browns,
    what do you think the chances of the Patsies doing that???
    
    		WOOF!

    Somethang like 3,000 new season holders since the Parcells announcement
    lasted Thursday.
    
    Parcell's already hired 8 assistants and is expected to announce 3 more
    maybe today.  Stategically it's great he's moved so fast in hiring his
    assistants because the other teams (like the NY(J) Giants) have yet to
    hire a Head and Parcell's got the jump on the creme-de-la-creme of the 
    assistants....
    
    It's just possible nexted season may turn out NOT to be a disaster?
    
    I remain,
    thinking some home games might be on tee vee too!
    Kev
    

      Is Joe Collier still the defensive man, or did Parcells get rid of
    him?
    
      Tim

Most notable move by Parcels was the appointment of Ray Perkins, his old boss, 
as o-coordinator.  The remainder of the staff is former Giants assistants.

The d-coordinator (Al Groh?) has no experience as a coordintor, but that is
probably cool, since Parcells will probably be pretty hands on with the D.

re: name, logo

I think they should take an astrological tract with this.  Change the team name
to the Boston Novas.  That way they could have some sort of star as a logo, and
their theme song would be:

"Blame it on the Boston Novas".

Sorry.

=Bob=

>"Blame it on the Boston Novas".
>
>Sorry.
>
>=Bob=


I know Dickstah, and you, sir, are no Dickstah.....  8^)

'Saw

>    With the hiring of Perkins, you could probably bet the Pats won't be
>    drafting a QB.  From all I've heard, he's big on the run, run, run.  
>    So why waste the number one on someone who'd be handing the ball off,
>    when anyone can do that.  Right?


I think you'll see something very similar to what the Giants did 
under Parcells.  I wouldn't call it "run" so much as "ball control".

It will be a conservative offense, with passing that is more controlled.
Look for the TE to get a lot of receptions....

It will also be a very good cold weather offense.....


hth,
'Saw

    I didn't realize that Parcells was with the Pats earlier in his
    career.  Rumor had it he might bring Steve Grogan and Steve Nelson back
    as coaches.  Is this still a possibility given the coaches he's named
    already?

It would be beautiful if the Jets could get Marvin Jones with the 3rd
pick. By all means I hope the Pats take Bledsoe.

The Crazy Met

                                      
    > I still think 
    > Zolak is good enough to win with and drafting Bledsoe would be a waste.
      
    Bledsoe might be a waste but you're kidding about Zolak, right?  Each
    of the Super Bowl-winning QBs you listed got there because they
    outperformed the opponents' QB (and I think that in this year's Bowl 
    the Aikman vs. Kelly matchup will again be the difference).  When the 
    best go up against the best, the winner must get strong play from the 
    QB position.  Scottie Zolak is not going to take the Patriots or anyone
    else anywhere.  Nor will Tommy Hodson.  Hugh Millen *might* if he can
    stay injury-free, but the clock is running on him.  This hole in the
    Patriots' lineup is not a trivial one...
    
    glenn
    
                                                        

	As Mike Childs was saying in another note, we were at the Firehouse 
last Sunday and there was a gaggle of yuppies seriously discussing Bill 
Parcells and the New England Patriots.  This does not bode well for folks 
like Denny, Chap and I.  Look what creeping yuppieism did to the Garden.  
8^(  And with regards to the mascot, I was at the game when the fans voted 
for the old mascot over the squared jaw new one with the American flag in the 
background.  It was against the San Diego Chargers and a Grogan interception 
almost blew the game (surprised?), until Steve Nelson made a goal line 
interception to save the game.  But if you notice over the years the facial 
features have become less gruff (and less manly), to where today's mascot 
almost resembles the one the fans unanimously voted down.  If Parcells 
brings a winner to Foxboro the yuppie caravan will migrate down Rte 1 and 
infect Foxboro.  Of course then, the sissified version of the mascot will be 
quite appropriate.      

				/Don

 Al Groh was the defensive cordinator for the Giants in 91. He wasn't any
 better or worst than Rust....

 So another words GOOD LUCK!!!!!!!!

 Nelson could handle the linebackers and Grogan could handle the QB if
 they need to find posistions for them....

 mike

 
    > C'mon , Glenn you were singing a completely different tune not all that 
    > long ago (see below).
    
    While I acknowledge that Zolak's physical skills are superior to 
    Millen's, my comments were mainly directed towards the ridiculous 
    policy of sending a lame QB out to get the hell beat out of him for 
    an 0-10 team, with absolutely nothing to gain for it in a lost season.
    If you think Bledsoe would be a project, then Zolak is doubly so. 
    Zolak has taken very few snaps since *high school*, much less college.
    He was drafted as a long-shot project with a big arm and based on his 
    brief appearances to date I'd say that his status is unchanged...
    
    glenn
    

The only reason Bill Parcels tooks this job is cause Mike Ditka can talk into a 
mircophone and not sound like he's got marbles in his mouth. The day Mike 
was fired Bill Parcels was fired by NBC and this guy needs the money to feed his
face and the Patroits picked up the tab.


Jeff

    Mike C.
    
    I thought I read that Groh was the linebacker coach for the Gints?
    
    
    Jeff R.
    
    For the first time in history, the Pats have done something that's made
    sense.  I will say right here and now, the Patriots will have a .500 
    record or better next year.
    
    					Steve

I heard last night on the FAN, in an interview with Dick Ebersole that
Parcells was one of their best analysts, but not the best (he said Trumpy
was).

Parcells had improved a lot during his tenure at NBC but the man wanted
to coach.  


I agree with Steve, Parcells gets them to at least .500 next season...


'Saw

    Any confirmation on Mr. Riggins' assertion that Parcells was fired by
    NBC?

>    Any confirmation on Mr. Riggins' assertion that Parcells was fired by
>    NBC?

I don't have any confirmation, but if memory serves me correct, he
had another year left on his contract, but had a clause in there that
allowed him to leave if he chose to coach.


'Saw

    I believe Mr Riggen is cackling agin, having yanked yo' chains.
    
    Careful Jeff, I won't buy you a nearbeer if I get to Coloraddy
    this year.
    
    MikeL
    

I expect to see replies in the Crow Cafe by both 'Saw and Steve sometime
in December of 1993.

The Crazy Met

    
    
       I would have to agree with .101.  Millen is way overated anyhow.
    With Parcells and Perkins all the Z man is going to have to do is
    give the ball to Russell, Stephens or Vaughn and on occasion toss
    a 10 yarder to Cook.  Why waste the money that Bledsoe is going to
    want when it could be spent on another player that is needed now.
    I would like to see them trade the #1 pick for a proven center and
    with the lower pick in the draft take the best available player
    anyhow.
    
    Jerry

    
    >  Glenn, I usually think you have an intelligent, informed opinion
    >  but this time I think you're doing some serious spin control. You
    
    Call it spin control or just a slight change of opinion, but we did get
    to see Scott Zolak up close and personal 4-5 times (after I said 
    little more than it was obvious that he should be starting ahead of 
    Millen during this lost cause of a season), and I'm sincerely 
    unimpressed by his prospects as an NFL quarterback.  And I'm not 
    sure how my comments came to be construed as an endorsement of Millen. 
    If I thought Millen were an adequate QB for an otherwise championship-
    caliber team, I certainly wouldn't be in the Bledsoe camp.  Millen is
    entirely *inadequte*.  All I've said is that Millen *might* be able to 
    be this "don't make any mistakes"-type QB that others feel is good 
    enough to win big in the NFL, but which I don't.
    
    > And personally, I think the quarter-
    > back postion is overrated anyways. Of the last ten or so Super Bowl 
    > winners the only team that had a bonafide "franchise" QB was the '9ers 
    > with Montana and even he had the the best offensive supporting cast, a 
    > dominating defense, strong special teams and the game's best coach/tact-
    > ician.
    
    I think the issue has become confused here.  We're not debating which
    is the single most important aspect to football, we're talking about
    the decision on a single draft pick, *one* player.  The Patriots are 
    not able with that one pick to draft an entire offensive line, or an 
    entire linebacking crew, or kicking game, or special teams squad, or
    any of the other areas of the game you've intimated are more important
    than QB play (some I agree with, some I don't).  It's strictly a
    decision on one player, unless they trade for a package, which both of
    us have agreed we don't want to see.  I submit that even on the teams 
    that have won it all without a "franchise" QB, the QB was still either 
    the most, or at least the second- or third-most important *single* 
    player on the team.  I think that the Phil Simmses, Doug Williamses, 
    Mark Rypiens and such did much, much more than just hand the ball off 
    and get out of the way without making any mistakes.  I don't think that
    anyone the Patriots currently have at QB is even close to being able to 
    fill the duties that these players did.  
    
    Whether the Patriots should look for a QB through the draft or by other 
    means is a good question, but they'll eventually have to get one, or at 
    best they'll end up as bridesmaids as I think current teams like 
    Pittsburgh, San Diego, and Kansas City will unless they do the same... 
    
    glenn
    

The single best thing the Patroits have done in is adding grass to Foxbourgh.

Parcells is gonna collect a check till the bank runs dry. This team needs 
MONEY to win football games. The last time I checked the owners don't have very 
deep pockets specially since they have them a high priced coach.

You got it baby. In the new football era of free agency you'll
see the owners with deeper pockets purchasing themselves
some good teams.

Arguements that rich owners haven't been able to buy the WS in
baseball do not apply to football, a sport where the more
talented team wins a significantly larger portion of the time
than baseball.

Metz

    re: .106
    
    Free agency has also not won NBA championships, that of course is
    because of the salary cap. Football has a salary cap mechanism as well
    so teams will not be able to spend past a certain point. Only time will
    tell if free agency will readically change the balance in the NFL to
    the richer teams. Remember all teams share in TV revenue which is a
    great equalizer.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Have to agree with the Met on that one.  If I'm not mistaken, were the
    salary cap in effect today, the Skins, 49ers, Buffalo and a couple more
    would already be over the cap, thereby denying them the opportunity to 
    sign any free agents.  I'd guess that a team like Dallas, loaded with a
    bunch of young stars, would be at or near the cap quite soon.  Of
    course, if they can keep them all in Dallas they shouldn't have any
    worries.
    
    The difference in football and basketball is that in football, teams
    are more willing to dump an aging veteran much quicker than in the NBA.  
    For example, Robert Parish and Kevin McHale would be long gone if their 
    career of choice had been the NFL, yet they're still pulling in serious 
    money playing hoop.
    
    Regarding the Pats, I'd say this'll be Andre Tippett's last year.  He's
    not anywhere near the player he once was, but commands a high salary
    nonetheless.  If the players thought that management was quick with the
    knife in the past, I'd guess that they will be even more so in the
    future. 
    
    					Steve

�Parcells is gonna collect a check till the bank runs dry. This team needs 
�MONEY to win football games. The last time I checked the owners don't have very 
�deep pockets specially since they have them a high priced coach.
    
    I think you need new sources, Jim.  Orthwein's pockets are deep thanks
    to ties with Anheuser-Busch.

                       
> Arguements that rich owners haven't been able to buy the WS in
> baseball do not apply to football, a sport where the more
> talented team wins a significantly larger portion of the time
> than baseball.
    
    Huh?  It's true that the most talented teams in baseball win less on a
    percentage basis, but that's why they play 162 games.  The talent still
    rises to the top, especially with a more selective playoff system in
    place.  I think what you're implying is that the game of baseball
    itself is "flukier", Metz, and I'd have to disagree if we're talking
    about the regular season.  The reasons that free agency won't destroy
    competitive balance in football are the same as in baseball: 1) there
    aren't enough starting spots on the "rich" teams to accomodate all the
    talented players, 2) even "poor" teams will actively pursue free
    agents, especially so in the NFL with its 100% equitable TV
    revenue-sharing system, and 3) the benefits of the free agent market
    are highly unpredictable to begin with, as time and time again owners
    have demonstrated that they will throw themselves at "sure thing" 
    veteran players who have undoubtedly had their better days with someone 
    else.
    
    Besides, in the case of the Patriots and James Orthwein we are talking 
    about very deep pockets anyway.  About as deep as they come, folks.
    He certainly has the capital to shape this team anyway he wants, and it
    makes sense to do so even if he is going to sell (in my opinion, as I
    think that the NE football market has tremendous potential that is as
    yet untapped).  The question is whether he will have the time to follow
    through and do so, but so far with the Parcells and assistant hirings
    the signs are good...
    
    glenn
    

>    I think you need new sources, Jim.  Orthwein's pockets are deep thanks
>    to ties with Anheuser-Busch.


In addition, Parcells is already drawing folks in.  The recent season
ticket sales show that.


'Saw

    
    Heard this little bit of news on the radio.
    Pats are going to dump their helmet logo as well as change their
    uniform color. They're checking with NFL Properties and are looking
    into sveral new designs. Supposedly they're looking at retaining the
    red jerseys, and incorporating silver pants and helmets wif a new logo.
    
    Jeez, almost like Ohio St. Let's hope they don't continue to play like
    the Buckeyes.
    
    MikeL
     
    

	RE: Parcells salary.

	Well Jeff, the Patriots have already sold about 1,500 season 
tickets and that translates to about 500K extra the team has that would not 
be in the coffers had they not hired Parcells.  And who knows how much 
revenue would've been lost in season ticket cancellations had the team not 
hired Parcells.  Sounds like a smart financial move too.

				/Don

Has any coach ever won it all with two different teams?  Either Super
Bowl or pre-Super Bowl.  I know that Don Shula has lost the SB with
two different teams (Colts and Dolphins), but don't know about the
winning.  For that matter, has any coach other than Shula lost it
all with two different teams.

Jerry

    	Weeb Ewbanks won it all with the Colts in "The Greatest Game
    Ever Played 'Cuz it was played in New York" and with the Jets in
    "The Greatest Super Bowl ever played 'Cuz a New York team won".
    
    				/Don

    Mebbe they'll make if official and put little "x"'s over Patsy's 
    eye's...   ;-)
    
    I'd like to see'm go to a White hell-mutt with a red stripe, keep it
    plain like the Dawgs or Penn-State.
    
    (I bet they get crazy and make it real busy)

For their helmets, I'd like to see a picture of Saddam Hussein, looking
upward, with a look of sheer terror on this face.

Jerry

I dunno, maybe it's me but I LIKED their helments and their uniforms....


'Saw

> >> I dunno, maybe it's me but I LIKED their helments and their uniforms....
>    
>    Nope. It ain't just you. I like 'em just the way they are, too.


Well, I see I'm in some FINE company then.  

I'm a bit of a traditionalist.  I'm not usually too upset when colors
change (ie the Oilers going from a silver helmet with blue oil rig,
to a white helmet with blue oil rig) but I don't like to see the logos
change too much.

I think they should leave them.  And I might just write them a letter
and tell them that too.   

'Saw

    Tommy and I finally agree on something.

    The helmut design s*cks bigtime.... I rather they go with
    something of New Endland folklore... Like Kaim being burned at the
    stake.... Or someone sitting on a chair being dunked...
    
    REK

>       the NBA. But I think you may be just a little to fanatical about
>       'em. Sort of a John Hinckley/*Travis Bickle/Get-a-hobby type fanat-
>       ical.
    
    I was like that over the Celts too when they had an active Dream
    Teamer.

Not sure why the connection between New Jersey and New England. The
2 are definitely different.

The Crazy Met

>Not sure why the connection between New Jersey and New England. The
>2 are definitely different.

It's close, as compared with Seattle.

Parcells spent time coaching in West Point (close to New England) and
for the Pats before coming to the Giants....


Probably has something to do with all those reasons....


'Saw

Actually the lifestyles between New England and seattle are pretty close. The
seattle area mirrors the northshore of Mass. I'd say there was more of a contrast
between the sewage dumps of Jersey and New England than Seattle and NE.  :-)

Which doesn't even come close to the lifestyle differences between the south
and NE.


Metz

>Actually the lifestyles between New England and seattle are pretty close. The
>seattle area mirrors the northshore of Mass. I'd say there was more of a contrast
>between the sewage dumps of Jersey and New England than Seattle and NE.  :-)

I realized that I had made a slight blunder using Seattle as an example.
I was just looking at distance.

Seattle is a lot like New England, except the folks are far friendlier....


'Saw

    	If I were the Patriots I would do anything in my power to get
    Reggie White on the team.  It would sell more tickets and upgrade
    the defense by at least 25%.  He may not want to come here, but
    it doesn't hurt to try.
    
    				/Don

	I doubt seriously that Reggie White would want to go to the Patsies no
matter how much they payed. He wanted that SB Ring for some time and knows NE has
little or no chance of getting their during whats left of his career.


   Cadzilla

    
    	Reggie White will sign with the Cleveland Browns...its a done deal!
    
    
    	WOOF!
    

    
    I dunno, I like the fact that Bill Parcells has been dropping Reggie
    White's name a lot in public lately.  Whether he'd come is another
    story, but when Big Bill lets the media know that Reggie is "the
    best there is", it can't hurt...
    
    glenn
     

And him being the best there is ?? would give you the idea he would like to play
for the best there is and not New England.

    Why would he sign with the Browns when he could sign with the Erlers
    and rejoin Buddy Ryan?
    
    I heard the 'Skins have the inside track anyway...
    

Don't those top tier teams (skins, 49ers..etc.) have to lose a free agent before
they can sign one?


Metz

    Only the 4 final playoff teams must lose a player to free agency before
    being able to sign one; fwiw Dallas will definitely lose Burlein (sp?)
    
    The next 4 teams can sign a limited number of players, not sure how
    many.
    
    All other teams (including the 4 first round losers in the playoffs)
    can sign as many free agents as they want.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    	The reason Reggie White will sign with the Browns is because
    there is a commitment to winning in Cleveland.  Cleveland is a
    real football town!  
    
    
    	WOOF!
    

    
    Reggie White is an unrestricted free agent not because of his contract 
    status but as a result of the settlement of the lawsuits in which he
    was a plaintiff (he cannot be tagged as a "franchise player" by the 
    Eagles, etc.).  As such, I believe that he can sign with any team 
    without compensation or limitation...
    
    glenn
    

    Reggie White is still bound by the Rooney Rule, which says that he
    cannot sign with any of the final four teams (Miami, SF, Buffalo and
    Dallas) unless they lose the same value free agent. For example, if
    Beurline (sp) signs with another team for $3 million a season, Dallas
    could sign Reggie for the same $3 million a season. Other than that,
    the final eight teams (includes the Eagles, Washington, San Diego and
    Pittsburgh) may only sign one free agent over $1.5 million without
    having a matching free agent that the lost, similar to the final four
    arrangement. Any of the final eight teams may sign as many free agents
    as they want for under $1 million a player.
    
    IMO, the only team that has a shot at Reggie from the final four is
    Dallas, losing Beurline (sp). The only other free agent that any of
    those teams that will get close to what White will demand is Steve
    Young, and he will more than likely be either designated a "franchise"
    player or will be one of the 49ers match players.
    
    Dennis Faust
    

SF could lose Montana so they could sign a free agent.

White would be a free agent since his contract is over. The clause
regarding the lawsuit is that he cannot be designated as a franchise
player, but the Eagles might not have done that anyway.

The Crazy Met

    	I thought that the club had an option for one more year on Montana
    and that Steve Young was a free agent.
    
    				/Don

    Montana is indeed under contract for a bit yet with the 49ers.
    
    Reggie White has been given a qualifing offer from the Eagles. It was
    some legal deal so that they may be in line for some type of draft pick
    as compensation if White signs elsewhere.
    
    Dennis Faust
    

    
    Unless they're bluffing, the local papers are reporting that the Patriots 
    are in the market for a QB with the #1 pick, Bledsoe or Mirer, depending 
    on whom you believe.  According to the Glob, Marvin Jones is out of the
    running because he measures up at only 6'1", 235 lbs, which might allow
    him to become a fine conventional inside linebacker (which is basically
    what he was at FSU), but not the monster dominant pass-rushing all-purpose
    LB/DE in the LT or Derrick Thomas mold.  Apparently none of the
    defensive players available this year measures up in this regard,
    including Alabama DEs Curry and Copeland.
    
    glenn
     

Last year, Taylor was listed at 6'3" 243 lbs.

    That is admittedly the problem with QB.  Any or all of them could turn
    out to be a Marc Wilson.  But I don't think the comments about Bledsoe
    were physically comparing him to Wilson, they were just general
    statements on college "systems", which if you think it through
    shouldn't matter if your talent evaluators know what they're doing
    (anyone can go to the "right" school and put up good numbers; these
    guys are supposed to see through that).  There is no comparison 
    physically between Wilson and Bledsoe or Mirer.  Wilson couldn't run 
    and didn't have a very strong arm, nor was he even that highly 
    regarded by the pros (I think).  And of course no one is complaining 
    about the BYU system in the case of Steve Young, who does have the 
    tremendous physical skills.
    
    >  Granted, 6'1" 235lbs isn't all that big by NFL standards but how much
    >  bigger are Derrick Thomas and LT ? I'd be surprised if Thomas was much
    >  over 235. Speed is his forte. And LT always played at about 245, no?
    
    I think the concern is more with his height, not his weight.  If you 
    have the frame for it you can always add weight anyway.  You can't get
    taller to get in a QB's face or to use arm extension to slip blockers.
    But I think that at best Jones could develop into a Wilber
    Marshall-type (and there's certainly nothing wrong with that).
    
    glenn
    

I think back to Lambert playing at 220!  8^)


LT is around 245, but he has a lot of strength on that frame and
his arms are massive.


'Saw

    
    the Cardinals are planning on taking which Alabama DE is left by the
    4th pick.  Hopefully the PAts will take a QB
    
    brews

    
    Yeah, I saw the quote and I'm still not sure what the unnamed AFC East
    GM (probably old friend Dick Steinberg) means by them.  If you 
    substitute Mirer's name and say "if he is just another Marc Wilson and 
    you use the first pick to take him, it's a disaster" is the statement 
    any less valid?  Or does the PR associated with Mirer's name cover him?  
    As has been documented many times in here, Rick Mirer was *not* an 
    up-on-my-shoulders-boys big game performer, and you'd think that 
    playing at Notre Dame would help a QB more than playing at Washington 
    St., so I'm at a total loss as to who this Rick Mirer was that was winning
    games for Notre Dame "on his own".  I suspect that the guy likes Mirer, 
    which is fine, but "big game performer" and "another Marc Wilson" 
    sounds too much like empty rhetoric for me.  You'd like to think that 
    they're a bit more scientific than that.
    
    Again, I don't care who they take; just get the right man.  Break out
    the films and the tape measures and radar guns and stopwatches and 
    psychological tests and whatever else it is that Bill Parcells likes 
    to use and get the right guy...
    
    glenn
     

>    psychological tests and whatever else it is that Bill Parcells likes 
>    to use and get the right guy...
    
You gotta get a guy that he can give a nickname to, like when the Giants
got Elliot.  He supposedly got the Jumbo nickname because at the end of
one of his first practices they were gonna run laps around the field,
and he was plodding along, and Parcells yelled out "C'mon there, Jumbo"

The name stuck....


'?Saw     

    	Rick Mirer?  The one that played for ND?  I thought Parcells
    was going to build a mainly team?  8^(
    
    				/Don

        > As for being more "scientific",
        > I think they're already *too* scientific. There has to come a point
        > when the numbers only mean so much and what it comes down to is, *is
        > the guy a football player?*.
    
    This much I wholeheartedly agree with.  Inside of some reasonable
    physical parameters I think devoted film study is probably the best bet
    in evaluating talent.  At least you're watching the guy play football.
    I just got a chuckle from the comments of this unidentified "AFC East 
    GM", who was even referring to Bill Walsh not by name but as "The 
    Genius" (a nickname that's supposed to be reserved for Jerry Glanville).  
    I just wonder if this interview was all on the up-and-up or if there 
    isn't some chicanery going on.  By the same token Bill Parcells may have 
    his true intentions completely hidden from the media, and may be going
    in a different direction entirely.
    
    glenn
      

    
    Performing well at the end of a game is often the overriding factor
    in armchair judging of college QB's by us masses. I often overlook
    (when it's not ND) what happened the first 40-45 minutes that creates
    the setting for those last few minutes( read Elway ad nauseum).
    
    Having said that, I've got some strong opinions on Mirer relating to
    that. Yes, Mirer has performed well in several games at the end, and
    more importantly throughout the whole game. Examples being Michigan
    '90, Michigan State '90, Penn St '92 (altho glenn will claim it was the
    Penn St prevent defense!). Several games he has come out solid in the
    first half only to "disappear in half 2; Penn St '90, Stanford '90,
    Colorado Orange Bowl, Tennessee '91.  And other games he shoulda 
    stayed in bed; Stanford '92, Penn St '91. 
    Mirer, INO, has been consistently inconsistent in his overall
    college performance. Quarters of brilliance followed by quarters 
    of mediocrity and ineptitude.  I don't know if you chalk that
    up to immaturity, not being totally comfortable with Holtz'
    run-oriented, controlled pass offense, lack of concentration,
    confidence, or even "feeling the footsteps". I assume it's a
    combination of all. But let me say this; after the Stanford debacle,
    I thought "here we go again" Mirer is up to his old Jekyll/Hyde
    tricks. But for the rest of his senior year, Mirer was immense in
    general.
    
    The knock on Mirer is that he was not perceived as a " take charge"
    guy in the huddle and seemed a little tentative at times in crunch 
    time. He certainly has shownm a history of that, particularly his
    junior year. Also, he had not handl;ed a good pash rush during his
    career. He seemed to freeze up agasinst a solid pass rush ( read
    Stanford '92). 
    
    If you look at the above knocks, you will also see a guy who came
    up huge against Penn St in '92, Tennessee in '90, Michigan in '90,
    and Florida in the Sugar in the fourth quarter of each game. 
    He's an enigma. His postives are his mobility, scrambling, and
    yes, passing skills. He can pass both in the pocket and on the run.
    He's 6'2, 215. The scouts say he's got a "good arm', not great. Well
    I think he has a gun, maybe not quiteas strong as Elway or Bledsoe, but 
    cetainly not weak. He can throw the cross field look-in.
    
    So to sum up, He's got immense talent and needs to gain consistensy.
    If the real Rick Mirer is the quarterback that looked damned good
    against BC, Penn St, USC and Texas A&M to close out the ND season,
    then he can be a franchise-type player. 
      
    I haven't seen much of Bledsoe so I can't comment. Let me say this,
    though. If Parcells feels that either one can be a great QB, then
    you have to take that man. Franchise QB's do not grow on trees.
    
    

	Let's face it folks.  We can sit here and thrash through stats 	and 
	opinions, but it's all nothing more than a crap shoot!  Sure, if the
	player you hype up now turns out to be a REAL NFL player than you
	can do the rooster strut and puff that old chest out and say, "I told
	yunz guys!"  But if he doesn't, which unfortunately is more often the
	case, who cares?  

	After all these are the Patriots we are talking about, right?

	nyuk, nyuk,

	Bill

I can't seriously believe that people are buying this Bledsoe is a product of
the WSU system crap. WSU was a school on the verge of being an annual Pac-10
patsy after Erickson left. Along comes Bledsoe and after getting hammered his
freshman year (even then I was more enamored of him than Mark Brunnel).

His sophomore year he started to lead an othewise mediocre team back out of
the trenches. The cougs got hammered by the huskies in the Apple cup again
but Bledsoe still looked worlds better than almost any college QB i'd seen
that year.

This year he led a team with some decent wide recievers and an average running
back to a bowl game. If anybody saw the apple cup this year where Bledsoe
was the only person unaffected playing in a blizzard you'd realize that he 
is definately the #1 qb in the college game.

I've seen plenty of Rick Mirer and probably 7 games with Bledsoe and Bledsoe
is 10x the QB mirer is. Not only are his physical tools better but so is his
consistancy, ability to read defenses and attitude.

Granted he got to show his strengths in the pass oriented WSU system but he
wasn't throwing behind the O-line of the Irish, to the WR's of the Irish and
he didn't have 2 NFL class running backs with him in the backfield either.

It's a serious snowjob by the NFl dudes...

Bledsoe will be the 1st QB taken and he'll be an Aikman type franchise QB for
the team that gets him...

Metz

    So Metz, what you are saying here is that you don't have an opinion
    one way or the other?
    
    Bill

    Well Metz,
    I'll go halfway and agree with ya on Mirer in some aspects; Mirer had
    the offensive line, etc. but ND's offense was not the pass-oriented
    deal that Bledsoe had (here I'm taking your word for this, having
    watched glimpses of him in the bowl game) and he has his faults.
    
    Buut if you expect me to believe that Bledsoe is 10X better than Mirer,
    then I'm Robert Parish' mailman. Git real main!
    
    MikeL
    
    
    

    
    
    should prove interesting if they take a QB...
    
    From the latest poop I've heard...
    
    Bill P. now is leaning towards Bledsoe after his interviews, and
    Perkins wants Mirer because he doesn't feel like Bledsoe takes football
    serious enough because of the Bungie Jumping.
    
    Lou

    I don't see Parcells going for a franchise QB so much as going after
    what he feels is a potential NFL QB who can run Parcells' type of 
    offense.  If he selects a QB as #1, then it must be his opinion that 
    this is the best place to start, given the talent available, regardless
    of the position.  
    
    Lee 

	new logo???

	what's it look like?


	Billl

    	Like I said in another note the logo looks like "The Old Man
    In The Mountain" on LSD.  Hope they like it in Saint Looee.
    
    				/Don

Re: st. Louie

Almost average things come to those who wait?

Nah, they're stayin.

daryll

To continue Slasher's QB conversation in the STEELER'S note (I always capitalize
STEELERS in recognition of JaKe):

Hugh Millen is a decent QB, who can take a hit without suffering from the Jeff
Hostetler Happy Feet Syndrome.  He's not a superstar, and I suspect that Scott
Secules will give them about the same job for half the money.  Of course none 
of this matters until the Pats get a center who could stop Irene Ryan from 
penetrating the backfield.

re:Logo

I don't think logos per se is what is selling team clothing these days.  
Kids seem to be more attracted to colors than anything else.  Unless the 
Pats change their colors to teal and black, don't look for them to sell a
whole lot of apparel.

I dunno, give me good old Packer green and gold any day.

=Bob=

>
>I don't think logos per se is what is selling team clothing these days.  
>Kids seem to be more attracted to colors than anything else.  Unless the 
>Pats change their colors to teal and black, don't look for them to sell a
>whole lot of apparel.

I recently receive e-mail that in a momentous decision, the BofD decided
to change OUR logo from blue to some queer shade of (flip wrist when 
you say it) maroon.

Now, most sports clothing today is going towards black, closely followed
by the "cowboy's blue" that the Whalers recently switched to.  Those colors
were chosen primarily because of their marketability to buyers in pro
shops.

So, leave it to DEC to pick a POWER color for their new logo.....


'Saw

	The only Mainly colors are BLACK and GOLD.

	IMHO

	billl

    I heard they used Lucky Lindburgh for the profile...  Makes it an
    easier conversion when the move!   ;-)

    
    
    	Is it just coincidence that red, white and blue are the colors
        for the state of Missouri as well as for Bud!! Mr. Gee made
        mention of this in the Herald yesterday. They also had two
        logo's, one with the Granite face the other without. I don't
        want to say the writing is on the wall but...
    
    
        RM

I seen the new logo and uniforms on ESPN and while I don't know about the
old man in the mountain, but someone is doing LSD. Could be something
outta Heavy Metal. Even the guys who were wearing the new togs looked
embarassed, like maybe they weren't getting enough money for all the
humiliation they were suffering.

Can't wait to see how this looks on the field ;-(

TTom

    Looked to me like some good Arena football jerseys...
    

      I was thinking  USFL Jerseys....

	I know that putting this in here I could be tossed right outa
	"Traditionalists Anonymous", but I really thought it looked ok
	on the silver helmet.  My only concern, from the marketing side,
	is how will it look on the baseball caps?  My guess is about as
	dumb as the Seahawk.

	billl

>	... My only concern, from the marketing side,
>	is how will it look on the baseball caps?  My guess is about as
>	dumb as the Seahawk.

Based on how it looked on the football helmets, I think "dumb" is being
charitable.

TTom

	It sounds like the real logo is the new face on top of the "P"
in Patriots. The new face is only by itself on the helmets and uniform
sleeve. For merchandise like hats, the logo will be 

It's pretty funny in a way.

The team has become a laughing stock in the past couple of season.

They got a new coach, who has a good reputation for turning losers into
winners, and that's good.

So why didn't they just leave the old, staunch, traditional logo alone
for a couple of years until they were winning.  Folks are a lot less
likely to criticize a winning team than a losing one.

Now, when they lose a game, not only will the fans beat up the team
but the logo as well...


It would be one thing, if they had a really stupid logo to begin
with (like the Whalers green road unis).  Then, if they changed and it
improved, then it's cool (like the Whalers going to blue).  But the
Pats old logo was so much better.....


'Saw

    What did the Chicago Blitz uniforms look like?
    

    
    	I don't think the logo's that bad, compared to say ah a Buffalo
        with a lazer beam sticking out of it ;^)
    
        RM

    	The Patriots Cost Cutting Measures continue as Irving Fryar
    is now a Dolphin.  With the increase in ticket sales and the decrease
    in payroll the profit made this season may just cover the moving
    costs to St. Louis.
    
    				/Don

�So why didn't they just leave the old, staunch, traditional logo alone
�for a couple of years until they were winning.  
    
    One of the official reasons is that it is too intricate and thus too
    difficult to mass produce for NFL Properties.  The NFL has been wanting
    the Pats to change their logo for years.

    
    I actually think the worst thing that the Pats did was change the base 
    uniform color from red to blue.  Color establishes a team's most basic
    identity, even before the logo design.  Alas, this movement toward the
    "attractive" colors is starting to dominate all sports, such as the
    movement in baseball towards every wannabe looking like the LA Dodgers.
    
    glenn
    

    	Bill Parcells is GOD!  Everything the Patriots have done so
    far is GREAT!  When I got home last night I burnt all my OLD Patriots
    hats, shirts etc and am looking forward to spending this and next
    week's paychecks on the NEW stuff!  I only hope for two things,
    first that the EVIL media leave PARCELLS and ORTHWEIN alone and
    second that the PATRIOTS raise ticket prices so they can scrape
    up enough money to keep the TEAM here!
    
    				/Don

    Hey Waugamain!!
    Welcome back from spring training!  Where's yo' trip report?
    Did ya see Dick Radatz?? Tell me, do the Sox REALLY have a chance for
    5th place??
    
    And on the Pats' scene.... local radio personalities Tom Doyle and
    Craig Condiment on WEEI have created a new personality for their
    show... Puxatawney Bill.. you guessed it, the new haid coach of the
    Pats who only comes out ta see his shadow.  Kinda humorous.
    
    MikeL
    

    ...Oh yeah, and I also hope the STATE raises our TAXES to build
    this WONDERFUL franchise the kind of stadium they deserve!
    
    				/Don

>    ...Oh yeah, and I also hope the STATE raises our TAXES to build
>    this WONDERFUL franchise the kind of stadium they deserve!


Heard on WFAN yesterday that the NFL is now telling the Patriots that 
they need to have a domed stadium in Boston.  

It didn't sound too facetious, but you never know......


'Saw

    	NOTHING is too good for the PATRIOTS 'Saw!  I'm more than willing
    to fork over 25% of my paycheck if it will keep PARCELLS and ORTHWEIN
    happy!
    
    				/Don

    
    Yabbut I think the new logo was snitched from a '42 (or wuz that '52?)
    DeSoto hood ornament!
    
    I remain,
    traditionally yours!
    Kev
    

    
    What do you guys think of this proposal to trade the #1 pick to San
    Francisco for two low first-round picks, a low second, and a third? 
    The selection numbers are #18, #27, #57, and #83.  That's quantity, but
    the picks in general seem too low for the kind of players available at
    the top this year.  Didn't the Pats get the #10 and #12 picks for only
    a #4 a few years ago, which they effectively wasted on Singleton and 
    Agnew?  As a fan and not a draft or talent guru, I know I don't like 
    the sounds of this...
    
    glenn
    

As a fairly objective observer of the Pats I would say they should not make that
deal. The quality available seems to fall off somewhere in the 10-15 pick range.

The Crazy Met

    
    My opinion is that the PATS would take Bledsloe except for the fact
    that his agent is asking for a 4 year deal in the area of 17+ million.
    This is chasing the Pats away, also Mirers' agent wants a 4 year deal 
    worth about 15 million....The Pats want something in this draft not 
    a big ?? on if they can sign someone....there has been talk that they 
    could get 4-6 quality players and fill in where they need for the same
    amount of money. Take the draft picks and maybe deal a Mullen and the
    18th pick to someone and move up in the draft.....
    
    /kevin
    

    Hey Karen.... What happened at bowling lasted night?  :-}
    
    REK

The pats should trade down to the number 4 or 5 slot and grab some huge
offensive lineman. It appears that Parcell's can get by wiht a mediocre QB in
his system and as evidenced by the latest free agent signings teams are placing
a priority on offensive lineman to build teams around.

Dropping below 10 in this years draft is another way to insure the continued 
mediocrity of the Pats by filling holes w/ mediocre crap shoot players instead
of getting some cajones and drafting an impact player for a change.

By dropping to a #4 or 5 slot then can weasel somebodies 2nd round pick to 
continue the mediocre stocking of warm bodies....

Either way the 'Hawks will stay at #2 and pick whomever of Bledsoe or Mirer
is left (they prefer Bledsoe for aarm strength and local boy story)

Metz

> Either way the 'Hawks will stay at #2 and pick whomever of Bledsoe or Mirer
> is left (they prefer Bledsoe for aarm strength and local boy story)
    
    If the Patriots are going to trade down (and that looks more and more
    like what's going to happen) the very first thing they should do is
    tell the Seahawks that they're taking Bledsoe and then extort a player 
    or a 3rd-round pick not to do so.  Then they can trade the #2 to one of
    the teams clamoring for Mirer or Hearst.  Basically, there should be a
    fee for the mediator who's making sure everybody gets what they want...
    
    glenn
    

Nor does Seattle. They won't give up anything to move up 1 spot in the
draft. Especially a 3rd round pick. Remember they have close to as many holes
to fill as the Pats do (mostly on offense) and Flores intends to built an O-line
through the draft...

The Pats shouldn't trade down any lower than #4 or 5 in the first round. Any
lower than that an they don't get an impact player. And they desperatly need
an impact defensive or offensive lineman....

Metz

    
    Sure, Metz, but what will you be saying come Monday if Parcells is just
    bluffing about trading down (or doesn't get the right offer) and goes
    ahead and picks Bledsoe, and Seattle is left with your fave Mirer?  I
    know I'll be happy... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

I'll be pissed as all hell and I'll be ranting and raving about how Mirer is
a stiff and he'll be another Kelley Stouffer and the Qb equivalent of Bosworth
and they shouldda asked for Krieg back from the Chiefs and drafted Jones 
instead of that stiff Mirer. :-)

But I have a feeling that Parcells has made his mind to either trade the pick
or to draft mirer...My guess is that he'll trade the pick..I just hope he drafts
better than the Agnew/Singleton type player.

Heck he's got 5 Qb's all ready. WWWwwhat's he need with another one?

Bledsoe to Martin....Touchdown !

Metz

 

	Hey Tommy Brydie, this week's S.I. has an article about our 
studmeister linebacker from Florida State.  Guess he impressed all the 
voyeur scouts with his bench press, vertical leap and all the other stuff 
that doesn't measure if the guy can actually play football.  S.I.'s DoctorZ 
(who knows as much about football as Al Bundy does about satisfying a woman) 
has Jones going to the Jesters with the third pick.  Sure hope that Mirer 
doesn't turn about to be John Huarte, but if past Patriot history is any 
indication...

				/Don

    
    	Here is what I have for the first round. I think Parsalls had
    everybody confused, but made the right choice.
    
    Pats           - Drew Bledsoe QB Washington St.
    Seahawks       - Rick Mirer QB Notre Dame
    Phoenix*       - Garrison Hearst RB Georgia - Swapped with Jets, plus
                     gave up Johny Johnson RB to the Jets.
    Jets           - Marvin Jones LB Florida St.
    Bengals        - Eric Curry DL Alabama
    Tampa Bay      - William Roaf OL NE Louisiana
    Bears          - Curtis Conway WR USC
    Saints*        - John Copeland DL Alabama - Traded LB Pat Swilling to
                     Lions for the 8th pick
    Atlanta        - Lincoln Kennedy OL Washington
    Rams           - Jerome Bettis FB Notre Dame
    Denver*        - Dan Williams DL Toledo - Swapped 14th pick plus with
                     Cleveland
    Raiders        - Patrick Bates DB Texas A&M
    Houston*       - Brad Hopkins OL Illinois - Swapped 19th pick plus with
                     Philadelphia
    Cleveland      - Steve Everit C Michigan
    Green Bay      - Wayne Simmons LB Clemson
    Colts          - Sean Dawkins WR California
    Washington     - Tom Carter DB Notre Dame
    Phoenix*       - Ernest Dye OL South Carolina - Swapped 20th pick plus
                     with 49'ers
    Eagles         - Lester Holmes OL Jackson St.
    Saints*        - Irv Smith TE Notre Dame - Swapped 26th pick plus
                     with 49'ers
    Minnesota      - Robert Smith  RB Ohio St.
    San Diego      - Darien Gordon  CB Stanford
    Pittsburgh     - Deon Figures DB Colorado
    Philadelphia   - Leonard Renfro  DT Colorodo
    Miami          - O.J. McDuffie WR Penn St.
    San Francisco  - Dana Stubblefield DL  Kansas
    San Francisco  - Todd Kelly DL
    Buffalo        - Thomas Smith DB North Carolina
    Green Bay*     - George Teague           - Traded picks to Dallas
    
    
    
    /Ron

    also a good move by the Jets
    
    The Crazy Met
    

re:Jets

Don't know much about Johnny Jones, but it seems to me that Phoenix got took.
All the talk I heard was that the Jets wanted Marvin Jones anyway, so the 
Cards gave up a player for nothing.

=Bob=

re: .214

The Cardinals had the problem that the Jets were talking to other teams
that were likely to take Hearst with the 3rd pick. So Phoenix gave up
a RB, and got into position to take the RB they wanted. 

This is similar to a suggestion made in this notesfile about what the Pats
could have done with Seattle if the Pats were going to take Mirer. Good
move in taking Bledsoe.

The Crazy Met

      I thought the Pats already had 4-6 QB's?  Trades coming?
    
    t Tim

    	The Jests must've been trying to sell the "we're taking Hearst
    or trading the pick to someone who will" bait and Phoenix took it
    hook, line and sinker.  Jesters still get their man and a running
    back to boot.  You got to love ESPN's DraftCam.  Nothing like seeing
    a bunch of executives in suits and ties using the telephone to really
    bring home the total "draft experience" to the audience.
    
    				/Don

The Seachokes are putting a good face on about not getting Bledsoe. They make
no bones about the fact that would have prefered Bledsoe but are content in
getting Mirer. 

Personally I'm bummed because I think that Bledsoe is a QB that will do things
on the field that have yet to be done. He's a true franchise Qb that , if given 
the chance, will do spectacular things. I don't think that Parcells offensive
scheme that he used on the Giants will let him showcase his ability at all.
Having a Bledsoe throw 20 times a game is a major waste of talent. It's like
putting a Marino on the bears. I suspect that in 3-4 years either Parcells will
have to open up his game plan a little more or Bledsoe won't be a happy camper.

Mirer, on the other hand would have been content to throw 25 times a game as
long as the team was winning. I think the Seahquacks will throw him into the
fire this season and ask him to throw a ton downfield. His college stats 
seem to indicate that he's abetter qb when he throws less. The Seachokes are
saying that he will compete with dan McGwire for the starting qb slot but if he
can't beat out Dan "rooted to the ground like an oak" McGwire than Mirer was
a wasted pick. Hopefully Flores will tailor the offense around Mirer's 
strengths and design a lot of rollout and short pass plays to John L. and 
Blades and Martin. Asking him to sit in the sievelike Seattle pocket and throw
downfield is a sure ticket to an injured QB by game 4.

All in all I'd say the NE got a true franchise QB but the hawks did O.K. by
meeting a need in drafting Mirer. I would have been happier if they had filled
the QB need through free agency (Burlein) and drafted Marvin Jones instead but
they needed a QB and they got one. 

Did Toretta get drafted? I know that Billy Joe Hobert went to the faiders and
Brunell went somewhere today...

Metz

Bob Griese was a QB who did just fine throwing 20 times a game. He
probably could have done a lot more if the game plane had him throwing
35 times a game. If New England wins I'm not sure anyone, including
Bledsoe, will complain. If they are losing everyone will complain about
everything.

That being saidI can see Bledsoe being a franchise type player, much harder
to see Mirer being that kind of QB.

The Crazy Met

>Having a Bledsoe throw 20 times a game is a major waste of talent. It's like
>putting a Marino on the bears. I suspect that in 3-4 years either Parcells will
>have to open up his game plan a little more or Bledsoe won't be a happy camper.

A lot of Parcells game plan with the Giants was dictated by the fact that
a lot of their season is played outdoors in the cold.  A good solid
running game, with high percentage passes thrown in when needed will
be the way to go.

However, if the Pats end up with a new stadium, with a dome, then I'd
bet Parcells opens it up a little more.

'Saw

>    Never mind the fact that Parcells simply never had a QB with Bledsoe's
>    supposed talent. Can't fire a weapon you don't have. 

	Simms is loaded with talent Tommy, it's the receivers that we're
 and still are suspect for the Giants. When a Bavaro leads you're team in
 receiving your wide receivers aren't gettin the job done.....JAYYYDEEEE
 has the numbers not me but Simms has HOF numbers and has played on a
 running team....

 mike
    

              
    Saw a quote from Rick Mirer in today's paper that he really wasn't all
    that thrilled with the East Coast anyway.  Another Elway!  Tell it to
    all those eastern real and subway ND alums who wanted to see you in
    Foxborough, Rick...
    
    glenn
    

Do you really think Parcells will open up his offense?

I think he'll stick with what has brought him success....A huge O-line, some
good rb's that don't fumble and an excellent defense...

The problem is that the Pat's currently have none of the above...


Metz

The mark of a good coach is to work with the talent you have.


If you want my HONEST opinion, the Broncos had a wide-open, devil-may-care
offense in 1986.  The Gaints made Pat Roberston looked like an ultra-left-wing
liberal with their offense.

The Giants won the Super Bowl and their first Champeenship in 30 
years.   Was I complaining about their conservative offense?  Was I?

Not on your life.


I'd posit that not one of you Pats fans would utter one peep of complaint
if Bill could bring the Lombardi trophy home to Foxboro, if he ran 85%
of the time, and only threw to the TE and RB the rest of the time.....


8^)


'Saw


PS  I have a GREAT poster of the Patriettes that'll soon be up on 
    my office wall.....

             
    A great QB can be great in any NFL offense these days.  Don't confuse
    quantity (stats) with quality in the context of the chosen offensive
    scheme.  *No* team can just almost exclusively run the ball and win.  
    *Every* team needs a QB who can make big plays.  There will be plenty
    of opportunity in the future (not this year) for Mr. Bledsoe to make a 
    winning impact, even if he's only throwing just 20 times/game in bad
    weather conditions (the other QB has to perform and perform well in 
    that bad weather, too, even if both suffer statistically).  
    
    glenn
     

    Ha ha, love your comment about Perkins and his hair, Tommie!  :*)
    
    Lee

    QB Hugh Millen was traded to Dallas for an undisclosed 1994 draftpick.
    
    The biggest problem with the Pats' O-line is their age.  They are all
    young and all thrown into the fray at about the same time.  As they
    mature you'll see them get better.  And as Tommy said, the Pats have
    quality RBs (as displayed by their ability to trade away Stephens) and
    a decent defense.
    
    Times are changing.  Free agency allows teams to aquire veteran talent
    for the short term and use the draft for the long term.  At least
    that's the theory.  Let's see how long it takes the Foxborough Faithful
    to boo Secules off the field in favor of Bledsoe.

	Just out of curiosity, what do yunz think the order of play will
	be for the Pat's qb?
	
	My guess to start the season: Zolak, Secules then Bledsoe.


	billl

With the new salary cap in effect for rookies how will Bledsoes
contract be structured??

The Crazy Met

    
    Yabbut my $0.02 says Bledsoe's gonna get a total package of someplace
    between $17M-$20M for 4 years.
    
    Anybody else care to speculate?
    
    I remain,
    thinking that's about the right range
    Kev
    

        I thought that rookies can't go over 2 mil a year?.?.?
    
      Tim

Right. No team can spend more than 2 million per year TOTAL on rookies,
hence the question of how a contract will be structured. They presumably
can structure it so it is 1 million for Bledsoe's first year, and then
much larger sums for the other years.

The Crazy Met

    
> Right. No team can spend more than 2 million per year TOTAL on rookies,
> hence the question of how a contract will be structured.
    
    Actually the rookie cap is supposed to be on a graded scale, with the
    teams drafting at the top allowed more money.  The current basis 
    reflects the contracts offered after the last draft, roughly
    maintaining the status quo but putting an end to the massive inflation
    that has occurred with draft picks.  Whether or not this will be
    acceptable to Mr. Bledsoe remains to be seen.  All I can say is, beware
    Dick Steinberg, the roughest, toughest hombre agent in the land...
    
    glenn
     

    Are there any provisions for teams that have more 1st round draft
    picks?  This could hurt a team that astockpiles picks.
    
    brews

    
    > Are there any provisions for teams that have more 1st round draft
    > picks?  This could hurt a team that astockpiles picks.
    
    I think the pay scale depends on the actual picks you have, not some
    pre-fixed amount...
    
    glenn
    

    Depends on number of picks, and where they are.  Bledsoe would get more
    than say Deon Figures.
    
    Gino got drafted in the 7th round by Minnesota.  Around the same time
    as pre-season Heismann candidate, Elvis Grbac.
    

    	Patriot's draft?  It costs too much ($3.75 for a 12 oz. cup)
    and it's usually warm.
    
    				/Don

    
    >>	Patriot's draft?  It costs too much ($3.75 for a 12 oz. cup)
    >>and it's usually warm.
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    At least it cools down in the pipes on the way from the urinals in the
    men's room.
    
    JaKe
    

    No comment on this morning's stabbing of Leonard Russell and Tim
    Edwards?  Any update's on Russell's condition?  Edwards was released ad
    Russell (per WBZ this AM) was in serious condition in Intensive Care at
    Mass General.
    
    Mark.

    At noon they hade Russell still in serious condition...
    
    Rick

    What's there to comment about?
    

    
    Heard something on the radio this AM about it. Wha' happened?
    
    MikeL
    

�    No comment on this morning's stabbing of Leonard Russell and Tim
�    Edwards?  
    
    Of course not.  Irving Fryar wasn't involved.

    They were talking to some women outside the Harbor Club when some guys
    looked to start a discussion.  Words were exchanged and Russell was
    allegedly stabbed by one of the two suspects.   The other was stabbed
    trying to break up the fight.

    I see Lowell Weiker wants to put all of those income tax dollars to
    work.  He is supposed to meet with Fran Murray, former minority owner
    of the Pats, today to discuss a domed stadium in the Hartford area.

>    I see Lowell Weiker wants to put all of those income tax dollars to
>    work.  He is supposed to meet with Fran Murray, former minority owner
>    of the Pats, today to discuss a domed stadium in the Hartford area.

See the NFL note.

There is supposed to be a news conference today with an announcement.

The one thing I know about ol' Lowell is that he doesn't even take a dump
without having a plan, and there's got to have been a lot of groundwork
done on this.

It'll be interesting to see what's what.


'Saw


PS  If it's true, watch for our income tax rate to JUMP way up. 8^(

    Worcester to Hartford is about 45-60 minutes, about the same as going
    to Foxborough.  Moving to Hartford put it closer to the second or 3rd
    largest city in New England -- Springfield.  If they don't think about
    highway acess when locating the stadium, the traffic could be worse
    than Route 1.  Hartford is a pain to get through as it is.  The 91/84
    interchange is a nightmare as it is now.
    
    I think they are getting a little too close to Giants territory if they
    move it there, though.  Besides, it will cost the Pats a fortune to
    break their current lease.

    Boston-Hartford is about 90 minutes - going 70MPH on the Pike; if
    stadium traffic needs to be included it would mean at least 2 hours
    from Boston. Quite a way to go. I mean this is the Pats we're talkinmg
    about not a Bruce Springsteen concert.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

84/91 is improving.

As it is right now it's 100% better than it was, but it's still under
construction.

I don't believe Weicker is tilting at windmills, if only for the fact that
he doesn't usually work that way.  Don't get me wrong -- I hate the guy,
but he doesn't do stuff without lots of groundwork in place.  I believe he's
serious about making a serious bid for the Pats.  Whether or not he gets
it, is another thing


If they put it east of the river, then access becomes less of a problem
because that area is not as congested, and you don't hit the 84/91 interchange.

As to Giants territory, the Hartford area is pretty much split.  I'll watch
the Pats if nothing else is going on, but I am a Giants fan.


It'll be interesting to see what the man has up his sleeve.

'Saw

�As it is right now it's 100% better than it was, but it's still under
�construction.
    
    It's been under construction since I can remember (and I grew up out
    that way). 
    
    In one way, moving to Hartford would be better for the Boston area. 
    That would put Boston outside the TV blackout zone.

    
    I also don't see Hartford supporting anything less than a solid,
    winning, suuitable-for-bandwagon-jumping Patriots' football team.  
    So where's the payoff?
    
    glenn
    

84/91 has always been under construction, true, but they have recently (last
two years) totally revamped about 3/4 of the interchange.  It's way better
than what was there before.  


>    
>    I also don't see Hartford supporting anything less than a solid,
>    winning, suuitable-for-bandwagon-jumping Patriots' football team.  
>    So where's the payoff?
>    

Want my cut at it?

Due to an intense lobbying effort, along with buy-in from the Mashintucket(sp)
Indian tribe, Weicker defeated the proposed Casino plan -- THIS year.
The casino folks will be back in record numbers next year to try and push
casino gambling in Hartford/Bridgeport through again.

In effect, what Weicker did was say no to about 22K direct and indirect
jobs from those casinos.

My thinking is that this is his clincher to kill off the casino gambling
question for next year.

If he can get buy-in, approval whatever, to build a domed stadium, then
he's got all sorts of possibilities for sports, including wooing the
Pawsox away from Pawtucket, the Patriots possibility, UCONN playing
Division I football etc etc etc.   (A few years ago, the Red Sox were thinking
of switching their AAA and AA ball clubs because of fan response in this
area -- I don't know if it is still the case.)

It creates jobs -- direct and indirect, and when the question of the casino
comes up again, he's in a much better position to defeat it.   


That's just me trying to get inside his head.  I could be completely wrong.


'saw
    

Subject: Ever unstable Patriots on the move?
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 93 21:25:47 PDT
 
	HARTFORD, Conn. (UPI) -- Fran Murray, former part-owner of the New
England Patriots, Tuesday made an offer to buy the troubled franchise
and said he would keep the team in New England but wouldn't commit to
Massachusetts.
	Murray's offer to current owner James Orthwein -- who intends to bring
NFL football back to St. Louis with an expansion team -- was made on the
eve of a news conference Murray is scheduled to hold 10 a.m. EDT
Wednesday in Hartford with Connecticut Gov. Lowell Weicker. Weicker will
apparently announce plans to build a major sports complex for the
Patriots. 
	Murray has been trying for some time to develop a major sports and
convention complex in the Boston area for the Patriots, who play in
Foxboro. Orthwein has repeatedly stated his intention to eventually sell
the Patriots and buy into an expansion team in St. Louis.
    

    Putting aside the bidness aspect...
    
    How many Ct people are Pats fans?? I dunno, I heard it's no more than 
    20%( much less than the 50% deemed to be BoSox fans).
    
    So this move would alienate 80% of their fan base ( EMASS, some of
    CMASS, RI, NH) in order to attract WMass, Vt and some Ct fans?
    
    If the Pats move to Ct., sorry, but my ass roots for someone else
    (Jints?)
    
    MikeL
    

    	CT are fains of who is winning.  The last year the Giants won the
    Super Bowl every car with a CT license plate had folks in there wearing 
    brand new Giants apparel.  Last year there were tons of Miami CT fans 
    wearing brand new Dolphin apparel at Foxboro.  Hey 'Saw I would've
    never supported a dime of my tax money going to the Patriots, but since
    it's *your* tax dollars, what the hell.  FWIW, Denny, Chap and I would
    still go to the games as long as there is tailgating.
    
    				/Don

�       That would seem to be another strike against moving out that way. 
�       Why would Bostonians drive two hours to see the Pats when they can 
�       stay home and watch them?
    
    TV ratings are better than attendance figures because TV is where the
    money is.

�    So this move would alienate 80% of their fan base ( EMASS, some of
�    CMASS, RI, NH) in order to attract WMass, Vt and some Ct fans?
    
    I don't think they'd alienate anyone in CMass if they moved to
    Hartford.
    
�    If the Pats move to Ct., sorry, but my ass roots for someone else
�    (Jints?)
    
    Let's see, if the Pats moved farther away from you, you'd root for a
    team that is even farther away?  

    -1
    
    Yabbut Mac, IMO they would alienate a majority of their fans from
    Woostah ( well Framingham ) in. Don't you think the majority of
    season tix holders and frequent attendees are from east of Woostah?
    
    
    Sorry, but the Pats would be thumbing their nose at a vast % of their
    supporters if they went to Haarfa. I'd just do the same to them.
    Hey it's pro football, it's not like it's religion like college
    football!  I dunno, again apologies to 'Saw, but I just don't
    consider Ct. as an integral part of NE. Kinda like a crossroads.
    
    
    
    MikeL
    

The only group I think they would lose would be the southern N.H contingent.
If they located the stadium on the east side of the river about 20 mins east
of haarfaa then the drive from boston wouldn't be bad at all. If they
designed a stadium with easy in and out access then the round trip time would
probably be faster than foxboro.

Haarfaa would clean up on speeding tickets down 84 as well.

Of course the Pats would have to change their name to the Fighting Insurance
Salesmen and their newly designed logo would have to be changed to a guy in 
a 3 piece suit carrying a briefcase leaping over a dog with pen in hand
trying the sell another policy.

Metz

    Pats move to Haafaad??
    
    Party at the Sawmill!!

    I guess if they look at the past 3-5 years attendences they can risk
    moving to CT ?  How many seats would be empty in this dome :-),
    if its too big the pats may never see a sell out.  Of course if they
    get a good deal on playing in this dome maybe they can afford to pay
    there players more $$$ and produce a winning team :-) ya buy a
    contender that's the ticket :-)
    
    							MaB

�How long do you
�  think it will be before most of the marginal Pats fans start tuning out.
    
    But Tommy, since they haven't been selling out folks in Boston haven't
    been able to watch them anyway due to the blackout rule.
    
�If the Pats move to Hartford they'll be the Hartford,
�  Connecticut Patriots not the New England Patriots.
    
    If anything they will stop being the Boston Patriots and be closer to
    the New England Patriots.

    
�  How long do you
�  think it will be before most of the marginal Pats fans start tuning out.
>    
>    But Tommy, since they haven't been selling out folks in Boston haven't
>    been able to watch them anyway due to the blackout rule.
         
    Exactly.  That's a very simple problem to fix.  If TV money is more
    important to the NFL than paid attendance, then the blackout rule can 
    be dumped.  Even now the individual teams can waive the rule if they
    want, if the TV money issue is deemed more important than the marginal
    gate receipts.  No sense in taking the drastic step of moving the team 
    just so more people in Boston can watch on TV.
    
    glenn
    

I thought you people thought that Boston was the hub of the universe?

I'm amazed that it's fallen to just the hub of New England...

 Metz

The Connecticut rap as a "crossroads" is ill-deserved and shows
a major lack of knowledge of New England history as well as a superficial
look at what CT really is.

I've lived here all my life and I can you you sites with as much historical
impact and importance as any place in the rest of New England.  The rap
as a crossroads comes mainly from two things:  a) proximity to New York and
the abundance of folks in Greenwich County who work in New York, and b)
Hartford as an insurance center.

But do a little digging, go down to Chester and ride the ferry, go to
South Glastonbury or any part of Old Wethersfield and I'll show you as much
history and "New England" as anywhere east of 495.

I get tired of hearing that rap, because I come from old New England stock, 
and not the yuppified, suit-wearing, beemer driving weinerheads who work
in Hartford.  My father's side of the family can trace his roots back past
1700 in this area.


Personally, from a CT point of view I think it's great that they're trying
to go after the Patriots.  I don't think they'll get them, and I think that
some of the reasons for trying are what I put in earlier, but you can't fault
them for trying.....


'SAw

    So Hartford will have 2 teams renowned for their losing ways.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Top 10 Things John Q. Public Knows About Connecticut
    ====================================================
    
    1.  I-95
    2.  Traffic jams on I-95
    3.  Toll booths on I-95
    4.  The bridge that collapsed on I-95
    5.  The truck driver who barreled thru the toll booth on I-95
    6.  Can't use my radar detector on I-95
    7.  Outrageously high speeding fines on I-95
    8.  Perpectual road construction on I-95
    9.  Car needs an alignment after driving on I-95
    10. No matter how slow that trucker's goin' cain't pass on the right
        on I-95
    
    
    - ACC Chris

>    Top 10 Things John Q. Public Knows About 1% of Connecticut
>    ==========================================================


Anyone who lives in CT knows to avoid I95 like the plague.  Unless you
wanna rub elbows with folks from Greenwich county.


Folks who've been to the Sawmill have seen some of the pretty areas
of CT.   I'd take a small plot of land over a mansion in Fairfield County
anyday.


PS  Earlier I referred to it as "Greenwich County".  By rights it's 
    Fairfield County, but a lot of us refer to it by the name of the
    town our Fat Fascist Governor is from.....
    

    
    >> New England IS the universe. Ya dad-gummed furriner.
    
    Ya fergot how it REALLY goes, Tommy.
    
    Here's how it should be:
    
    New England IS the BUTT of the universe.   And, Boston is the
    sphincter.
    
    
    Schnorttt SChittt Schleppps
    
    JaKe
    

      Domes are fur sissies!
    
      Tim

    re: .274
    
    btw law changed and you can use a radar detector in CT.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    'Saw,
    As I said, my apologies regarding the "crossroads" thang, as it is
    based on perception and ignorance on Ct. history, but it would be a
    travesty, IMO, if the Pats moved to Ct and tried to pass it off as
    NE Pats, no matter what Mac says. OK, so I'll accede to you and
    intellectually say that Ct is NE, but emotionally I won't. FWIW,\
    the perception is out there because of the reasons you state, 'Saw,
    that CT is half and half ( dat's admittedly provincial Boston area
    bias) and I cain't accept a NE Pats team in Ct. Hartford whatever but
    not NE Pats. 'Saw, you sum up what most people percieve about Ct;
    50/50 Bosox/Yank fans, majority Jint fans; quasi-NE/quasi-NY, history
    notwithstanding.
    
    And as Tommy said Mac, Boston is the Hub and media center of NE, not
    Hartford, Woostah, Springfield etc. It that's provincial, so be it.
    Ya thinn NooYawkas would be pleased to see the Yanks move to Ithaca
    cuz it's mo' "New York"?.
    
    So 'Saw, nothing against CT in this endeavor, it's the Pats who would
    be
    the ogre in this matter if they move. And likle Tommy, I don't think
    they'll venture 30 miles outside Beantown if/when they move.
    
    MikeL
    
    

    	HAHAHAHAHAHAHA�  What a joke of a press conference.  I was waiting
    for Weicker or Murray to say "pay no attention to that man behind the
    curtain".
    
    				/Don

>    btw law changed and you can use a radar detector in CT.
    
Actually, you always could.  8^)


That law was only enforced on a spotty basis, and there were lots of
ways around it, if caught with one.   

The one and only time I got nabbed it cost me $40, and when the trooper
said to me "It's illegal to have these you know, and it's gonna cost
you $40" I replied  "First off, the constitutionality of the illegality of 
owning and operating a device to receive radio signals is open to question.
Second off, I figure this baby has easily saved me $1500 worth of tickets,
so I'm still $1100 ahead of the game".

I thought he was gonna blow a gasket.



re Mike:

I hear what you're saying, but it still rankles me that folks just
trash the area without having checked it out.   Actually, the split
of Yankee/Sox fans in the area has always made things really interesting,
and sparked many a coffee-shop or pub debate.   And most "Connecticut"
folks, don't believe that Fairfield County is part of Connecticut, no
matter what the map says....8^)


re /Don:

I didn't see the press conference.  I was in this dump until 7:30.

The reaction around here is "Where can I sign up for season tickets".


The only thing I see bad about it might be that Giants telecasts might be
affected....


'Saw
    

    	Hey 'Saw, hold off on the season tickets.  Murray will pay 133
    million for the team, but can't say where the money is coming from and
    the only thing solid about the stadium is the cardboard that the
    picture of it is on.  The Boston media is having a field day with this
    one.
    
    				/Don

    So you can use a detector in CT now?
    
    Is the stadium going to be near the mall with the fake ATM?
    

re /Don:

	Well, I wouldn't expect the Boston media to be sitting around
	with the thumbs up their arses.  Of course they're having a
	field day.  But stranger things have happened, and it sure will
	be interesting to see what kind of spin control they use if the
	Pats DO move.


>    So you can use a detector in CT now?

Yep, have been able to legally since last October, but seriously, I've
always used one.
    
>    Is the stadium going to be near the mall with the fake ATM?

Not from what they're talking about.  They're looking at site
in Colt Park or near Brainard airport (not Bradley, Brainard on the
southeast side of Harfaa)


'Saw
    

    I always used a radaar detector in CT as well; got caught speeding
    once but managed to hide the detector before the cop came over.
    
    The crazy Met
    

    While this New England cultural discussion is all very interesting, the
    fact of the matter is that football has never been a big part of the
    New England cultural landscape anyway.  I still think it'd be dumb to
    base the region's football team in Hartford, for logistical reasons.
    Connecticut may be every bit as much New England as Maine, but I
    wouldn't want to see the Patriots based out of Portland, either.  And 
    for most people living north of Boston as opposed to south it'd be no
    less convenient.
    
    glenn
    

    >> the fact of the matter is that football has never been a big 
    >> part of the New England cultural landscape anyway.  
    
      Tell that to the thousands who bought season tickets after Parcells
      was announced as the new head coach. A successful NFL franchise will
      sell just about anywhere but to really cash in on all of the peripheral
      goodies the team *has* to be located in Boston.
    
      BTW - 'Saw, Georgia has a rich colonial history and it ain't New
            England either.

    >> the fact of the matter is that football has never been a big 
    >> part of the New England cultural landscape anyway.  
    >
    >  Tell that to the thousands who bought season tickets after Parcells
    >  was announced as the new head coach. A successful NFL franchise will
    >  sell just about anywhere but to really cash in on all of the peripheral
    >  goodies the team *has* to be located in Boston.
    
    Oh, I agree.  For financial reasons especially it'd be best if in the
    team is in the region's largest city.  All I was saying is that I don't
    think the Patriots in Connecticut would be the cultural travesty
    that a Nashua NH Red Sox would be.  Or a Providence RI Celtics.  Hell,
    having Foxborough for an identity is bad enough...
    
    glenn
    

Tommy,

Perhaps I didn't express myself as clearly as I would have liked.

I'm not saying that Colonial history makes it New England, but I'm talking
about that for a start.   There are very definite things in Connecticut
that ARE New England in addition to a colonial history.   The farms, the
people and their traditions.

Granted, I'll give you Fairfield County (you can have it 8^)) isn't New England,
but the rest of the state is, from the Northwest corner to the Southeast
shore (excluding Fairfield County).....


'Saw

No more toll booths on I-95 right?   Radar detectors?  Just drive around the speed
limit and you don't need one.  Never have gotten a speeding ticket in CT.  Radar
Dectectors are for weinies.

JD

I drive around 70, which is what everyone else is driving...

Right, no tolls on I95 in CT, no tolls anywhere in CT any more.  It took
a couple of major 18-wheeler-crushes-car-with-young-mother-and-baby type
accidents, but they finally got rid of them....


'Saw

Okay, Tommy.

Anyway, you should come down some weekend and check out the Mark Twain
and Harriet Beecher Stowe houses in Hartford, along with the Wadsworth
Atheneum.

Old Newgate Prison is a rush too -- all underground (from colonial times)
and some of the passages off the tour route are clearly marked "pass at your
own risk".  

Gillette Castle, built by the late 19th, early 20th century actor,
William Gillette is also fun, especially at Christmas time, when it's done
up a la Victorian Christmas...


your CT tour guide,
'Saw

    HAHAHA
    This from someone from Clinton??
    
    MikeL
    

                <<< CAM::$1$DUA5:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS.NOTE;1 >>>
                                  -< SPORTS >-
================================================================================
Note 56.297         The Unofficial New England Patriots Note          297 of 297
MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!"             5 lines   1-JUL-1993 12:02
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>  I'll have you know, Leary that Clinton is the cultural and political 
>>  center of the quad-town area (Clinton, Sterling, Lancaster and Bolton).
 
    Now there's a downright scary development. Don't tell me... you're
    chairman of "The Quad-town Apple-picking festival" and guru of the
    "County grass growing fest"
    
    And Heiser left this beacon of renaissance for staid Arizona
    
    
>>     If you weren't so busy writing checks to Notre Dame football players
>>     you'd know that.
    
    Checks aren't allowed. Cash in big brown bags preferred. No smoking
    guns you see....
    
    MikeL
    

    	Hey Tommy if they Pats move into a sissified domed MegaHypePlex
    near the waterfront they can take my season tickets and stick 'em where
    the sun don't shine.  It would be faster getting in and out of Hartford
    than going through Boston every Sunday.  And if the developers get
    their way the stadium will be smack dab in the middle of a mall meaning
    no more tailgating.  8^(
    
    				/Don

	The New England (MegaPlex) Patriots signed Drew Bledsoe to a six 
year (MegaPlex) 14.5 million dollar contract.  The only thing that could be 
better (MegaPlex) was if those evil Massachusetts politicians would allow 
the new (MegaPlex) stadium to be built.  The Patriots will never be a 
competitive (MegaPlex) team until they have a brand new (MegaPlex) domed 
stadium, completely paid for by the state (MegaPlex).  Lord knows that Mr. 
Orthwein (MegaPlex) is doing everything in his power (MegaPlex) to bring 
the fans of New England (MegaPlex) a winner.

				/Don

    Thanks for the note about Bledsoe (MegaPlex), /Don.  I didn't get the
    (MegaPlex) message Orthwein was trying to get across at the press
    conference (MegaPlex) to announce Bledsoe's signing.  Thanks for
    (MegaPlex) clarifying it for me.
    
    NAZZ

    I see ACChris knows as much about CT as he does about hoops outside of
    Chapel Hill.  And once again, everyone is asking, "who cares?".
    
�The only thing I see bad about it might be that Giants telecasts might be
�affected....
    
    Don't worry.  Giants (NFC) are on CBS, Pats (AFC) are on NBC.

 but Mac you know how those TV exe's are. They just can't get enough of
 Eddie Mac drooling over them there prospective models on the universally
 appealing Star Search. Why I can't recall how many tears I've shed watching
 5 year olds belt out them tunes....

 mike

    
    That James Orthwein is a real bore, isn't he?  He looked half-dead up
    there at the podium, with that new designer Pats' cap propped up on his 
    head as if he'd never wore one before in his life.  If they can stretch
    this megaplex thing out long enough in the legislature, this threatened
    move problem (as far as Orthwein personally is concerned) may take care 
    of itself...
    
    glenn
    

�Not from what they're talking about.  They're looking at site
�in Colt Park 
    
    Why do new stadia always seem to get situated in one of the worst parts
    of town?

    	That's easy BigMac, real estate is cheaper.  Now that my seats have
    been "up"graded I hope the Pats stay in Foxboro.  If they move Joes
    like Denny, Chap and I will get "relocated" to the nosebleed section.
    
    				/Don

In addition to cheaper real estate, it's an area where there is a lot of
open space.


Since then, the site has been narrowed down, so to speak, to the
south meadows, an area near Brainard Airport and Hilltop Steakhouse
(which for years was Valle's Steak House).

That area is a fine area....


'Saw

    [email protected] articles by Jul 15, 1993:

--------
Subject: Patriots for sale for $140 million
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 93 15:27:47 PDT
 
	FOXBORO, Mass. (UPI) -- The New England Patriots will be put up for
sale next month, the Boston Globe reported Wednesday.
	The newspaper said Patriots owner James Orthwein is expected to start
entertaining offers for the team around Aug. 1. Orthwein is seeking at
least $140 million for the Patriots, the same price put on expansion
franchises by the NFL two months ago. Orthwein is involved with a group
looking to land an expansion team in St. Louis.
	Orthwein purchased the Patriots last year from debt-laden Victor
Kiam. According to the Globe, Orthwein was prompted to put the Patriots
up for sale sooner than expected after the NFL announced it would hold a
special expansion meeting in September to receive the final
presentations from five cities vying for two expansion franchises.
	If St. Louis is granted an expansion franchise, Orthwein would have
until February to complete the sale of the Patriots. St. Louis is
considered a front runner for an expansion team.

    	Denny and I are heading down to Smif'field this Monday to watch the
    Pats groan and sweat under Parcell's whip.  I'll put in a full report
    nexted week.
    
    				/Don

    More talk of the Boston Megaplex.  Gov. Weld's plan is for the city of
    Boston to kick in some money, the Pats to kick in some money, and the
    rest will be funded via Boston Harbor gambling cruises.

    Yippee!
    I'd go on a gambling cruise..
    "Hit me" as I pass the wonderful Deer Island sewage plant.
    "Red 25" as I see kneecapped Vinny float by off the East Boston Piers.
    "Where's the one-armed bandit" as I hear hordes of Boston-whalered
    drunks make their way back to the Winthrop Yacht Club.
    
    8^)
    MikeL
    

	Went down with Denny and Chap last Monday to the Patriots' training 
camp in Smithfield.  For those with a little free time I would recommend 
the trip because watching Bill Parcells is worth the trip.  This is 
definitely *his* team and it will be run *his* way.  There's nobody hanging 
around or sitting on his helmet not paying attention.  He runs a tight 
practice with every minute of it filled.  His tart one liners had us 
rolling.  During one scrimmage he yelled at Chris Slade "Slade, you've been 
in camp two days and I've already caught you for five penalties.  You ain't 
playing Wake Forest!"  Another gem was when Zolak was getting constantly 
sacked in the afternoon scrimmage, "When there's nothing there, get rid of 
the damned ball!  No wonder you guys were sacked 57 times last year!"  Like 
I said, he's worth the trip down there.  One free agent who looked 
impressive was Corey Croom a free agent running back from Ball State.  I 
would think he'll get some playing time against the Chargers.

				/Don

    
    For those of you with satellite dishes who wish to watch the SD/NE
    game on Saturday, it'll be on Galaxy 7, transponder unknown.
    
    This has been a public service announcement.
    
    Live from Charger Central.......Glenn
    

�    game on Saturday, it'll be on Galaxy 7

	Hey Glenn, I thought the game was in San Diego?  Now that's what I 
call a road trip!!

				/Don

    
    Don, I've observed that sometimes the Chargers play better on alternate
    galaxies.  Has something to do with weightlessness and little martian
    guys with ray guns that Bugs can really annoy. ;-)
    
    Live from Charger Central.......Glenn
    <

    
    	G7, transponder 22
    
    	Live from Charger Central......Glenn
    

    
    >	G7, transponder 22
    
    Otherwise known to us mere mortals as planet earth, UHF channel 56...
    
    ;-)
    
    glenn
     

    
    	I guess that's true.  I would have no idea about that tho.
    
    	Live from Charger Central......Glenn
    

	Almost 50K for an exhibtion game?  The Pats offense looks better 
than I thought they would be but the defense is worse than I hoped they 
would be.  If the Chiefs had let Montana play 3 quarters they would've 
scored 50 on the Pats' Keystone Cops defense.  The only things that may 
allow the team to win 5-7 games are the last place schedule and Parcells' 
coaching because the defensive line and backfield are pathetic.

	Traffic was at an absolute standstill on Rte 1 after the game and 
it wasn't a whole lot better an hour later.  How come it takes a guy from 
Miami (Wierd Sam Jankovich) to get a decent traffic flow on a road in New 
England?  Last year I had to leave immediately after the 49er game (a 
sellout) and was home in less than an hour and a half.  Didn't get home 
until almost one on Saturday morning!  Anybody at the game see the skinhaid 
security guard patrolling the visitor's sideline on Friday night?  Tell me 
he don't say a few Hail Adolphs when he gets up in the morning...

		      		/Don

re: da skin haid security guard

He was there lasted week too.  In the third quarter a guy with "Supervisor" 
on his shirt came over to talk with him.  At that point all your friends in 
the next section (the ones who harrass the cheerleaders) started to yell "tell
him he can smile, tell him to let his hair down".  After a few minutes of this, 
he took off the baseball cap he was wearing, ran his hand over his chrome dome,
and cracked a huge smile.

We were rollward.

=Bob=

    Parcells says he'll be scouring the other teams' cuts to find a pass
    rusher and a free safety.
    
    Rumor has it there is a bidding war going on over the Pats.  One of the
    parties interested is Kraft, the owner of the stadium.

    Yabbut either lasted night or the night before, WBZ radion had a
    interview with some guy who said he and his family are making a bid. 
    Don't remember his name but he's a native of da bahston area but now
    lives in Hollywood.  He is a movie producer and he said he'd like to
    see a stadium build in/near the city.
    
    I remain,
    not remembering his name but he's 41 years old.
    Kev
    

    re: .323
    
    I forget the guys name also, but his uncle is Dick Smith, the president
    of what is now Harcore General Corporation, but for years was know as
    Gneral Cinema Corporation.  Lasted week the rumor came out in the paper
    that Smith was bidding, he denied it, but confirmed his nephew was.
    
    As a former employee of General Cinema (no, I wasn't an usher, I wrote 
    softwqare for them), all I can say is betterPacells working for Di
     Smith than me.
    
    =Bob=
                                                                      

    	As long as they don't play in a SissyDome I would travel to
    Connecticut to see the Pats.
    
    				/Don

>    	As long as they don't play in a SissyDome I would travel to
>    Connecticut to see the Pats.
    
Talk here is of a real stadium, no dome.

That's just what I hear.


Connecticut folks are going "Pats in CT?  We'll believe it when we see it"


BTW, the new logo SUCKS.


'Saw

And as Tommy stated before there is pretty aparent unification among a lot
of factions to get this done.

For example, once it appeared that it would be feasible to do this, and
perhaps even likely, a bunch of folks from East Hartford tried to jump
on the bandwagon, and make a site available in East Hartford.

The site is Rentschler Field, the airfield on the ground of Pratt and
Whitney Aircraft, which Pratt is trying to sell off.   It is 12 acres
of level ground.

However, the "powers that be" are really set on having this thing in 
Hartford, to benefit all of the folks in downtown that would or could
benefit from this, not to mention the hotels and things....


'Saw

    Well, if the pols in Connecticut decided to bail out the Whalers, why
    not take the Pats as well.

    	Hey why not ask the state of Connecticut to donate some of their
    tax dollars to Jacobs so he can sign Bourque?
    
    				/Don

    Let the Foxwood Indians purchase the team.  They could include the
    stadium in their casino expansion plan.
    
    Weld wants to pay for the Megaplex with Boston Harbor gambling boats.

�    Weld wants to pay for the Megaplex with Boston Harbor gambling boats.

	Don't you just love it.  Gambling on football games (where the 
bettor actually has a chance to win) is a sickness but scratch tickets 
(where the odds are long on winning anything substantial) is okay.  Video 
Poker (where you can apply strategy) is like "crack cocaine", but Keno 
(another nobrainer longshot bet) is allowed.  Now we want to have the 
RobertCraneMemorialFloatingFixedCrapGame to pay for a SissyPlex.  Why don't 
some of these pols spend the night in a package store, or any lottery agent 
the day welfare checks come in if they really want to see a "crack cocaine" 
like addiction.  What a bunch of phonies!

				/Don    

I've had great luck on CT's new scratch game.

I bought two tickets last week, and won $2, and $50.  I cashed the $2
and came up empty on the two more tickets I bought with it.  I spent
the $50 on someone really special.

Then, the next time I bought two tickets I had a $10 winner.

6 tickets and I've won $62.....  Not bad.


'Saw

�and came up empty on the two more tickets I bought with it.  I spent
�the $50 on someone really special.

Yea, those flowers you sent me were so sweet...

>Yea, those flowers you sent me were so sweet...

Dammit, =Bob=, you weren't supposed to tell anyone.  


'Saw

    
    	After seeing the Pats new uniforms, it'd be hilarious for me
    	to catch any more flack 'bout *orange jersies* from a certain
    	noter.  :*)
    
    Claybone

>    	After seeing the Pats new uniforms, it'd be hilarious for me
>    	to catch any more flack 'bout *orange jersies* from a certain
>    	noter.  :*)
    
Man, do they SUCK.

I mean, that logo looks like someone used a gym-teacher's handkerchief
to blow their nose, and it kind of landed on the side of the helmet.

It ranks just below DEC's new burgundy logo on the list of totally
messed up logos.

Whoever came up with that logo should be shot.....


'Saw

    Some Elvis lover I'm sure...
    

>    Some Elvis lover I'm sure...

Elvis died on the can in mid-peench, reading a article entitled
"The Scientific Search for the Face of Jesus"

Man, can you imagine going like that?
    

    Whats up with the Flotting Gambling casino's... Face if if people want
    to gamble there going to gamble.  The biggest thing I see happening is
    keeping the money in mass rather then sending it to Conneticut.  Where
    they dont even pay taxes on the money (Indian reservation).
    
    Ever been to CT's casino, the Parking lot is full of MA plates and the
    Busses are coming from the North...
    
    The Casino's is a great idea and will not promot NEW GAMBLERs just keep
    them in mass and help generate money for MA rather then CT or NJ. 
    Might even keep some from travleing to Vagas....
    
    This is a NO Brainer... People are going to gamble no matter what you
    do so why not have the state and government make the money rather then
    the mafia and bookies....
    
    								MaB

    Re:  "I spent the $50 on someone really special", here are the
    Top Ten uses 'Saw had to spend the $50 on someone really special:
    
    10) Auntie Ethel needed a new set of false teeth.
    
    9) Finally got around to paying the barber for his haircut.
    
    8) Sent in the pledge to Jimmy Swaggart.
    
    7) Every secretary needs to feel appreciated.
    
    6) There was a special on "Beavis and Butthead" dolls and
       'Saw had to have them both.
    
    5) The dog needed to get fixed.
    
    4) Kev is still taking donations to buy that Mexican growth hormone.
    
    3) Ken Olson's surprise birthday party needed some balloons.
    
    2) Hartford hookers are getting expensive.
    
    and the #1 way 'Saw spent the $50 on spmeone special:
    
    1) A donation to the governor to help build a stadium for the Patriots!
    
    NAZZ

Well, okay, if you must know, I spent the $50 on my "boys".  I needed to
buy a truss.......

    	Mike "Air", my point is that whenever there's talk about *real*
    gambling (wagering on sporting events, etc.) the state's arguement is
    that it is "crack cocaine" like addictive and take the moral high
    ground.  But when it's gambling where they can't lose suddenly there's
    no moral problem.  Phonyism at it's best (which is what Massachusetts
    pols excell at).
    
    	I'll be wearing what I think should be the Patriot's new colors and
    logo this Sunday (it'll be very mainly).
    
    				/Don

    Yes but this is gambling where you can get behind and lose more then
    you can afford and end up in debt to a guy you dont want to owe money
    too, and depending on your position he may take advantage of you in
    a few different ways.  This also can lead to crime becuase youd rather
    spend time in jail then owe these people money... But make it legal,
    the odds will be better and the state dont let you fall behind in what
    you owe :-), no money no play...
    
    I just feel that there's is going to be gambling no matter what you
    do.  I can place a bet with about 5 different guys today, no problem.
    If I lose I can bet until next tuesday before I have to pay up.  Have
    a bad week and you looking at some serious trouble... Id rather that
    the state was making the profit not the bookies, plus maybe it will 
    put some extra money in the budget to either lower taxes or keep them
    from going up.
    
    Floating Casino's will do one thing, keep people from going to CT and
    maybe draw some out of staters to boston rather then CT, NY or NV.
    
    Sports gambling will take money from one group, the Bookies...
    
    Im sorry but seeing less money put into the bookies pockets and the
    casino's on other state will not bring tears to my eyes.....
    
    							MairB

>>  But make it legal, the odds will be better <<

 hahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
 hhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa11111!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 mike

    Well Im asuming you wont pay JUICE if your betting thru the state !!!
    Most gamblers would put down many different bets, and at the end of 
    the week if they didnt have to pay the JUICE they would proberbly
    do ok....
    							MaB

>    Well Im asuming you wont pay JUICE if your betting thru the state !!!
>    Most gamblers would put down many different bets, and at the end of 
>    the week if they didnt have to pay the JUICE they would proberbly
>    do ok....

 Of course I know what "Juice" is....it comes from a orange...

 What makes you think the state won't charge "Juice"?????????

 They'd call it administrative costs....

 most pols learnt from the crooks that put there in the first place...

 besides the state probably wouldn't allow you to bet straight up...

 make you play a card where you had to pick 4 teams or more, in an effort
 to increase their chance of winning.....


 mike

    	Hey I wouldn't mind the state taking a 10% vigorish, that way the
    aim is to get money bet equally.  Like I said, even though at the end
    of the year the state would come out way ahead if they booked football,
    they would rather concentrate on games, that if you or I ran on a
    street corner would be called con-games and we would time for.
    
    				/Don  

�I just feel that there's is going to be gambling no matter what you
�    do.  I can place a bet with about 5 different guys today, no problem.
�    If I lose I can bet until next tuesday before I have to pay up.  Have
�    a bad week and you looking at some serious trouble... 
    
    They don't call him Mike "Air" Brooks for nothing.
    
�    Sports gambling will take money from one group, the Bookies...
    
    Depends on where you do your gambling.  Some states have legalized
    sports gambling.

    Other than Nevada what other states have legal sports gambling??
    
    I think it is not allowed in Atlantic City.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    Somehow I just don't see the state of Massachusetts (or any state, for
    that matter) as ready or able to set up a professional Vegas-style
    sports betting operation that would allow fair, single-game wagers.
    Running a sports book is not a trivial matter, and some have gone out
    of business.  Even for Vegas it's a complicated exercise requiring 
    monitoring of national betting trends.  I agree with MikeC; if you ever 
    see legalized state-run sports betting look for it to be of the 
    pick-4-winners, collect 8-to-one ripoff variety.  It's been tried in 
    states like Oregon (don't know if it's still running or not, because of 
    the lousy payoffs) and that's what they did...
    
    glenn
                          

Plus, let's face it, the folks who run State Government are not all
that swift, for the most part.

I've had friends who work for the State and they tell me horror stories
about folks who simply got a state job because it's pretty secure, you
don't have to produce (cf Department of Motor Vehicles) and the work
is easy.

I can't see some enterprising young, shirt and tie, State employee going
"Golly Gee Whiz, Governor Weicker, I think we should set up a sports
betting scheme, and I'm just the guy to do it"


Glenn is right -- it's got to be private to be fair, and the state would
never allow that.


How do they do it in England?  I know they bet on EVERYTHING over there.....


'Saw

>     England has privately-owned book shops. Anybody who has ever bet with
>    a bookie (not me!) knows that they are nimble-minded shrewd individuals.

Thanks, I wasn't aware if they were private concerns or government run.


>    That's not exactly something the state has in surplus. 

That, my friend, is a Universal Truth.




And of course, all this talk of gambling if purely for amusement purposes
only.....8^)


'Saw

    
    AND, just remember that the folks in government are the folks
    who couldn't a) either get a job in the real world or
    		 b) couldn't HOLD a real job in the business world!
    
    I mean, name one single building/project that took 30 years to finalize
    (like the new Shawmutt Center aka da new garden) the plans on in the 
    private sector.
    
    NB - the pyramids of Egypt are not eligible, they were monarchially
    sponsored!
    
    I remain,
    wondering if gov't employees can be weathermen (at 30% accuracy)
    Kev
    

    Kevin, what happened to you starting notes with "yabbut" ?
    
    Just wondrin,
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.

 I hear we're getting Keno in this state....We ought to get our sales
 force down to see Malone and Weld and sell them some Alphas. Tell
 Weld he can get and extra 12 games per hour with our machines!!!!

 ;^)

    
    Yabbut I sometimes do it for variety.  I fired up 2 brain cells on this
    gambling thing and I think it's a good idea.
    
    Foist, maybe some of the laid off digits can get employed (can you
    imagine Hawk and Dickstah dealing????).
    
    I like MikeyC's idea of populating them with Alpha's cause then we get
    to keep our paychecks for maybe 3 or 4 more weeks  :^(
    
    'nuther idea is NOT to have them state run (only causes more taxes,
    retirememt stuff and all the other baggage).  Rather, franchise or
    award a contract to a_independant company for say 5 years.  Then all ya
    gotta do is hire a few state auditors or some big 5 company.  Of
    course, this is only to minimize the mob effect.  They're gonna get in
    there anyway.
    
    I remain,
    2 cents poorer
    Kev
    

�    Running a sports book is not a trivial matter, and some have gone out
�    of business.

	HAHAHAHA�!  What was it the late Pete Axthelm used to call his bookie, 
Captain Cry.  I used to be friends with a bookie Herbie Goguen (God rest 
his soul) and over a few beers he would tell you the horror stories about 
games where the money was all on one team or how guys used to skip town 
without paying off...  I always used to ask him why, at the age of 55, 
would he keep doing this year after year if all he did was lose money?  He 
always would answer that he did it for us.  What a public servant!  8^)

				/Don

    Breaking story. Orthwein has pulled out as major backer for the St.
    Louis group looking for an NFL expansion team. No idea what this means
    or what he'll do but it could be very bad news for New Englanders.
    It could be the St Louis Patsies.
    
    Mike

    NJ had a big fight over legalized gambling but in the end the
    sanctimonious troika of Bill Bradley,PJ Carlesimo and Chuck Daly helped
    shoot it down. 
    
    A local politician who opposed it and the Donald got into a great
    argument about it on a local talk radio program. Trump claimed the 
    pol wouldn't support it because his bookie friends bought him off.
    
    I just can't see the  harm  of legalizing sports betting in a state
    like NJ. I'm also for legalizing prostitution. Prohibition doesn't
    work,but politicians don't ever do the logical thing. 

    
    In Vegas betting is prohibited on games that involve local teams - that
    pretty much means UNLV basketball. They could have the same rule in NJ,
    but that would stop action on Seton Hall, Nets, Devils, Giants, and
    Jets which is a large number of teams (especially 2 NFL teams).
    
    The Crazy Met
    

The only thing here is that the Las Vegas bettin' parlors, by agreement,
won't book UNLV. This pretty much only only effects the basketball since
very few places book 1-AA games.

They most certainly will book any fight that takes place there.

The extension to other states doesn't matter since there isn't any legal
bookmaking on sports except in Nevada. Certainly New Jersey doesn't have
it.

I feel quite confident that local, do-it-yourself entrepreneurs (bookies)
would be glad to furnish any and all lines.

TTom

�    Running a sports book is not a trivial matter, and some have gone out
�    of business.
>
> HAHAHAHA�!  What was it the late Pete Axthelm used to call his bookie, 
> Captain Cry.  I used to be friends with a bookie Herbie Goguen (God rest 
> his soul) and over a few beers he would tell you the horror stories about 
> games where the money was all on one team or how guys used to skip town 
> without paying off... 
    
    I was talking about legal, fair sports books in Vegas, not the local
    arm-breakers.  God only knows what kind of vigorish and other
    inducements the wise guys are extracting to keep their "businesses"
    going.  Likewise, the state can also take the path of least resistance 
    and make the most money by running a scam operation, with no shortage
    of gullible customers.  The scratch cards and other lottery games are 
    proof enough of that.  Why work at it when you don't have to?    
    
    glenn
    

Gee, am I the only one who thinks that this Bushcwhine resignation thing does 
not bode well for the Foxboro Footballers?  Seems that without ol' Jimmy's 
money from the sale for the Pats, St. Louis is no longer a lock for a franchise.
That being the case, well you know the rest...

	[email protected] articles by Thu, 9 Sep 93:

--------
Subject: Patriots owner steps aside in St. Louis
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 93 17:01:19 PDT
 
	FOXBORO, Mass. (UPI) -- New England Patriots owner James Orthwein
resigned Thursday as chairman of the investor group seeking an NFL
franchise in St. Louis, apparently clearing the way for him to sell the
Patriots for top dollar and keep the team in Massachusetts.
	Orthwein has been under NFL pressure to sell the Patriots as long as
he remained a majority stockholder of the St. Louis group, but his
resignation appeared to give him more time to find local buyers and hold
out for a higher bid.
	Francis Murray, a former part-owner of the Patriots and a new
stockholder in the St. Louis group, has already offered Orthwein $133
million for the team, providing the Patriots are moved to Hartford,
Conn.
	But Orthwein has promised Massachusetts Gov. William Weld to keep the
Patriots in the state for 30 years providing a way is found to build a
$700 million sports-convention center in the Boston area to house the
team, which now plays in suburban Foxboro, Mass.
	Orthwein, who will remain a minority partner in the St. Louis deal,
did not put a deadline on selling the Pats, but said he had retained the
Wall Street investment banking firm of Goldman Sachs to evaluate offers
and said he expected to ``start making decisions on our options in the
near future.''
	Weld, meanwhile, appeared before a state legislative committee
Thursday to urge approval of his plan to finance the so-called megaplex.
The proposal includes floating gambling casinos in Boston Harbor and new
state bonds, both of which face stiff opposition among legislative
leaders.
	Weld said the complex, which would include a domed statdium, would
put Boston ``in the top tier'' of convention cities in the United
States, and would allow Massachusetts to host such events as the Super
Bowl and college basketball's Final Four.

    How many years are there left on the Foxboro Lease ?  I thought
    Orthewein sold his intrest to another rich dude ?
    
    								MaB

It sounds like super fran put legal schananigans on the whole St Lous deal.

My prediction is that St. Loius will get an expansion franchise (in thanks for
super fran bailing out the pats), fran will sell the pats for top dollar (maybe
not until 1995 when the team begins to draw fans again after a decent season)
and will then miraculously turn his minority part of the St. Louis franchise
into a majority ownership when one of the majority owners sells his part of the
St Louis spirits to frugal fran.

fran is trying to get a bidding war between Conn and Mass over the pats and
sell out for maximum profit....


Metz

Locally, they're trying to make a big deal of Orthwein's dropping out of
the St. Louis bid. 

Basically, this is the second time recently that St. Louis, the supposed
lock for a bid, has stubbed its toe. They were the only city in the
running to not sell out the luxury boxes. The NFL, for some reason, put
that on the list of things it wanted to see done. Charlotte, Baltimore
and even Jacksonville sold all of theirs. Now the principal money behind
the bid is gone leaving them to try to convince the NFL that they still
have a cartel with enough money to fund the $200 mil to join the club.

One irony of this may be that Orthwein won't be trying to move the Pats
to St. Louis. And the league can go a long way to prevent that by
awarding a new team to St. Louis.

TTom

    
    There is too many things happening at once here.  I'm too far away to
    get all the details, but some plan is being worked.  We'll probably all
    figure it out in a month or two.
    
    brews

    I thought it was Barney Fife... figure with Mr. Drummond from Diffrent
    Strokes... Fife and Drummond would be good mascots for the Pats...
    
    

    	Barney Bites.  One of those 'raptor dinosaurs would be a nice
    mascot though.  Walt(e), get out of this mainly Patriots note!
    
    				/Don

You got it slasher....

The New England Dinos...we'd corner the kiddie NFL merchandise market and make
enough to have the state of Mass buy the Pats, lock stock and barrell and
george Kevarian could be the new nose tackle....

Bring back Tip O'neil as an o-lineman and put a dress on dukakis and let him
play QB...

Yeah,

 Metz

    Yeah yeah, I'll stay out of it...

Some miscellaneous thoughts:



	o The Patriots uniforms SUCK.  The logo does worse than suck,
	  but I just can't find the words.  The logo looks like a 
	  sick sperm cell, trying valiantly to keep up with the other
	  little sperms heading towards that egg, but doomed to be
	  in the back of the pack.

	  The logo is almost, but not quite, as bad as our new logo.


	o The Patriots defense has good speed laterally down the line
	  and they did a good job shutting down Barry Sanders to the
	  outside.  Unfortunately, he managed to get up the middle.

	o Patriots special teams need work.  

	o Patriots need a running back -- badly.  I've never seen a 
	  Parcells team throw so much, and as /Don and Denny and Glenn
	  pointed out "if the Pats had anyone who could run the ball,
	  they'd be running instead of passing"

	o Bledsoe is good.  If the Pats can build a decent team around
	  him, they can contend.  He made several plays that looked like
	  veteran QB type of plays.

	o The Pats made mistakes at all the wrong times.  They made mistakes
	  on key plays, and lost the game.


	o The cheerleaders are fine -- very fine, and there's more of them
	  now.

	o The girl who was running the camera for CBS was looking VERY
	  good.....


'Saw

�	o Patriots need a running back -- badly.  I've never seen a 
�	  Parcells team throw so much, and as /Don and Denny and Glenn
�	  pointed out "if the Pats had anyone who could run the ball,
�	  they'd be running instead of passing"
    
    I think Russell is just fine.  The reason a Parcells team is throwing
    so much is because he finally has a QB who can throw.  They've also
    been forcing themselves into playing catch up.

>    I think Russell is just fine.  The reason a Parcells team is throwing
>    so much is because he finally has a QB who can throw.  They've also
>    been forcing themselves into playing catch up.

Parcells had a QB who could throw in NY.  Simms has proven that again
and again.  Simms just didn't have great wide-outs.  He could hit
Bavaro though....

Russell doesn't seem to have a lot of speed.......


'Saw

	I'm gonna hafta disagree wit ya, Frankie, on the uniforms.  I like 'em.
	After all think of all the negative things that go along with the color
	red....
		o  the color of the British imperialists' coats
		o  the color no one wanted to be related to in the McCarthyism
		   years (Commies)
		o  the color no one likes to see in their bank book
		o  the color your face turns when you are either embarassed or
		   really pi$$ed

	Blue is the all-American color.  Somebody told me yesterday that it was 
	like the Steelers changing their logo and uniforms.  Again, I disagree.
	If and when the Pats ever have a dynasty or even a string of winning
	seasons, then all this fuss about changing the logo and uniforms would
	make sense.  I would think true Patriot fans would want to erase any
	reminder of how absolutly atroucious they were.  After all that's exactly
	what the Steelers did when Chuck Noll took over and the rest is history.

	As far as the cheerleaders and Russell go, I'm in total agreement wit ya,
	'Saw.  I spent all night last night cleaning the slobber off of my 
	binoculars from yunz guys.

	
	billl

    Is the line protecting Bledsoe, or will he see the same fate as a young
    Jim Plunkett?

>    Is the line protecting Bledsoe, or will he see the same fate as a young
>    Jim Plunkett?

For the most part, Bledsoe had good protection yesterday, I thought.



re Bill and the unis:


	Their unis look "cheap and chintzy", kind of like the old USFL
	stuff.

	I didn't get any slobber on your binoculars....  After that bozo
	behind me spilled beer on my seat, I just slobbered on myself,	
	so I could be wet from both sides......


'Saw

    Chris Berman made a USFL crack about the uniforms last night... Then
    again, he did when they change to the Pittsburgh Loons too...
    

  I thought the old unis and logo were just fine  but I don't care if they
 traipse around in tutus as long as they win football games.

    	Well, just before the new logos, etc., were unveiled, someone
    	said the old logo looked "like someone taking a dump." I agreed
    	then and I still agree now.
    
    	Scott

�    	Well, just before the new logos, etc., were unveiled, someone
�    	said the old logo looked "like someone taking a dump." 
    
    As anyone who has played the line knows, you're supposed to look like
    that while in a 3 point stance!

|�    	Well, just before the new logos, etc., were unveiled, someone
|�    	said the old logo looked "like someone taking a dump." 
|    
|    As anyone who has played the line knows, you're supposed to look like
|    that while in a 3 point stance!

I'd rather look like someone taking a good healthy dump than look
like "a shot that missed the pot".....

8^)

After two games does anybody want to go back to the draft and take Rick Mirer
over Drew Bledsoe? 

I said it then and I'll say it again. This guy is an NFL super stud and if he
can survive this year and parcells gets to throw around some of super frans
cash for some O-linemen (they are in great shape under the salary cap) the Pats
will be a contender in a couple of years.

Parcells is smart enough to adapt his style to his players. The Pats will have
a balanced attack but it will be more throw then the Giants were under his
reign. Irving Fryar will wish he stayed in NE (although he's got a decent QB
throwing to him).

Mirer is playing magician here in seattle, repeatedly running for his life
behind an offensive line that carries red capes as part of the standard uniform
(in order to ole the defensive linemen on their way to Mirer's mid section).


Metz

    what imagery Metz.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Why would I disagree with Metz?
    
    Nowhere in his reply did he say that Mirer would be a flop, only
    that he be running for his life. I assume he thinks Bledsoe was better
    than Mirer and I have no problem with that. In fack, he jest might
    be right. I only objected to Metz stating that Bledsoe was 10X the QB
    that Mirer is. I disagree with that, but we'll soon find out!
    
    BTW, I'm happy that the Pats drafted Bledsoe rather than Mirer.
    But that don't mean Mirer is chopped liver either.
    
    MikeL
    

 I'm with MikeL. It's also a little tough to tell how good Mirer really
 is right now when he's constantly in survival mode.

    
> After two games does anybody want to go back to the draft and take Rick Mirer
> over Drew Bledsoe? 
    
    Drew was my man then, now, and until he otherwise demonstrates that he's 
    not the star in the making that he appears to be, always.  It was 
    Slashmain and Tommy that wanted to draft that midget linebacker Marvin 
    Jones ;-), who last I heard couldn't crack the Jests' starting lineup 
    (although that may have been due to reasons other than his ability, like 
    falling behind after his holdout; I really don't know).
    
    Bledsoe has the ability but he does have a long way to go.  The one
    thing that disappointed me in yesterday's game was that after surviving
    some pretty good pressure (he may need to be more attentive about
    holding onto the ball with this team's pass protection) and executing 
    well on some nice timing patterns on the game-tying drive and on 
    that nice long-gainer to Russell in overtime, he kind of choked on the 
    first reasonably "easy" deep opportunities he had against the Lions' 
    secondary all afternoon.  I don't know what caused the Lions to finally 
    break down back there, but on the first missed play that Brisby kid was 
    wide open for the game-winner, and on the other play the Lions' DB had 
    to grab some shirt to contain his man but the zebra ruled that Bledsoe's 
    pass was too high and too far out-of-bounds to be catchable.  After 
    playing a pretty decent game, those missed opportunities on the last 
    possession of the game left a bit of a bad taste as far as Bledsoe's 
    overall performance went...
    
    glenn
    

|    As anyone who has played the line knows, you're supposed to look like
|    that while in a 3 point stance!
    
    I never use to 3 pt. stance while taking a dump.

    re: .395
    
    Bledsoe is a rookie; those were rookie mistakes. I wouldn't worry about
    it at this point. If he is still making those mistakes consistently at
    the end of the season it might be of greater concern.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    re: .396
    
    Not even when camping? Ya know...two pt squat stance with one arm
    behind for support? 
    
    re: Bleed-so
    
    Bledsoe = Ken O'Brien
    
    JoJ_NOT

>    
>    JoJ_NOT
>


Hey, JoJ_NOT,

Please tell JoJ that FrankWa says the Scorpions RULE!


thanks,
'Saw

    	Hey Marie, take it to the Sissy Note (a.k.a. Jests Note).  Bledsoe,
    Slade and Brisby looked good Sunday, but they still lost and the
    defense couldn't contain Sanders or Moore when they really had to. 
    
    
    				/Don

    Slasher, JoJ knew you'd come back with some baloney about the Pats
    looking good....and what the heck kinda name is Brisby for a football
    player?
    
    JoJ_NOT

    Same as Norman, Blair and Browning?

    
 >> Drew was my man then, now, and until he otherwise demonstrates that he's 
 >> not the star in the making that he appears to be, always.  It was 
 >> Slashmain and Tommy that wanted to draft that midget linebacker Marvin 
 >> Jones ;-), who last I heard couldn't crack the Jests' starting lineup 
 >> (although that may have been due to reasons other than his ability, like 
 >> falling behind after his holdout; I really don't know).
   
    Jones' problem is that he's having trouble picking up the Jets' defense
    whether that's because he held out or he's just stupid, I don't know. 
    The jury, as far as I'm concerned, is still out whether the Pats picked
    the best player in the draft. Mirer is stuck with that gad-awful line up 
    in Seattle and Jones is off to a slow start. Give it two or three years
    and we'll see what's what.
     

I just picked up Drew for my FFL team. I'll probably start him against
Seattle so everyone should expect a_underachieving day outta him.

What's this I read about the center hurt and out?

TTom

>>What's this I read about the center hurt and out?

	I read that too in this morning's paper.  


	billl

    	Hey TommyB, it would be ironic though if both Bledsoe and Slade
    were all-star performers and Jones was yet another in a series of Jests
    draft blunders.  I would gladly munch crow if that were the case.
    
    
    				/Don

�    	Hey TommyB, it would be ironic though if both Bledsoe and Slade
�    were all-star performers and Jones was yet another in a series of Jests
�    draft blunders.  
    
    It would also add to Nazz' list of reasons Dick Steinberg is overrated.

  I remember Jets fans booing the selection of Jeff Logeman on draft day. Of
 course, now the guy's a Pro Bowl player and a dirty one at that. Two things
 that New Yorkers can appreciate.

    Well, one Jets fan predicted that Lageman would be a pro-bowler. Who
    was that masked fan? Why, JoJ (a.k.a. Carnac) of course.
    
    Whereas /Nostra_have_another_DONus was WRONG AGAIN.
    
    JoJ_NOT
    
    

�    Well, one Jets fan predicted that Lageman would be a pro-bowler. Who
�    was that masked fan? Why, JoJ (a.k.a. Carnac) of course.
    
    Yabbut, he says that about every Jests player.  What's that they say
    about blind squirrels?

    	Yeah, what's JoJ's overall average in predicting successful Jester
    draft picks?
    
    			Nostra/DONus

    
    Yabbut it seems that the patsies are, if nothing else, keeping ya
    interested in the outcome of the game.  They almost tied it with a
    couple of seconds left in the game, only to have the field goal attempt
    hit the crossbar.
    
    Mirer won the battle of the QB's, imo.
    
    I remain,
    having a premonition they might win next week!
    Kev
    

�    Mirer won the battle of the QB's, imo.
    
    How?  He spent half the game on the bench.

    	On the bright side Chris Slade is no longer a "ball in tall grass"
    anymore.  Forget stats, for the entire second half the Seahawks ran
    their play away from Slade's side about 90% of the time.  Late in the
    fourth quarter Parcells was flipflopping Slade and Tippet so Seattle
    wouldn't know where he was.  He may be the best player on the team
    right now.
    
    	Singleton continues to verify that the trading down of their '90
    pick (and passing on Kennedy and Seau), for two lower round picks may have
    been the biggest draft day blunder in Pats history (and that's saying a
    lot!)  Somebody actually rented a plane to fly the following banner
    over Foxboro Stadium: "We wanted wins not blue jerseys and a crap
    logo".  I loved it!  
    
    				/Don

    What's a ball in tall grass?

    	Mac,
    
    	Ball in tall grass = Cannot be seen
    
    	I think,
    	Scott

  Parcells said about Slade earlier this year:

  "He's like a ball in tall grass. You know what that is? Lost."

    Singleton got benched for Todd Collins, who played a terrific 4th
    quarter - had five tackles and an interception.  He stuff Warren on a
    3rd and inches at the Seahawk 29 to force a punt late in the 4th
    quarter.
    
    Vincent Brisby also got benched, but I don't know why.  If anyone
    should sit down, it's Timpson.  But getting Ray Crittendon on the field
    was a great idea.  That catch he made over the middle to keep the final
    drive alive was a thing of beauty!!!!!!!!
    
    NAZZ

    	NAZZ, were you there?  On the pass to Crittendon late in the game
    Ben Coates was wide, wide open over on the sidelines and would've
    trotted into the end zone had Bledsoe seen him.
    
    				/Don                 

    Heard a fella say he watched game at rockingham - not a bad idea on
    blacked out games
    
    Same guy is full of hope for pats - why or how can parcells lose 3, 2
    at home to ordinary teams and come up roses while same thing last
    year..  well, you know
    
    the century of imaging is upon us all

It took the New England defense to make the Seattle offense look good. 
I don't think the Seahawks scored more than 16 points in any game last season.

The big thing the pats lacked is a Rb catching passes out of the backfield.
John L. Williams burnt the pats several times catching them. The Pats defense
also made Chris Warren, who is a decent back, look all world.

Bledsoe needs to learn to look off to secondary recievers instead of fixating
on 1 guy. Watch steve Young for a lesson in how to do this.

The Pats should abandon all pretense at a balanced offensive attack and work on
a hurry-up, no huddle approach to maximize their scoring chances. They have no
offensive line to run block....

Nice effort by the kicker.....almost went to O.T.....


Metz
 

�The big thing the pats lacked is a Rb catching passes out of the backfield.
    
    Yet another past Patriot strength sacrificed in the name of Parcells
    getting "his" players on the field.  John Stephens was quite good at
    this.  Letting Fryar go fits into this category as well (Pats finally
    get a topnotch QB and let go the only receiver that warrants double
    coverage).

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA...
    
    JOJ_NOT

Mac, any coach who would double-team Fryar, deserves to be in an unemployment
line.............

mike

Most folks forget that Parcells first year with the Giants was 3-12-1, and
yet in three seasons he had them to the Super Bowl.

That first season the Giants lost a lot of close games, and all of us
Giants fans were doing the same thing that some of the Pats fans are doing
now -- pissing and moaning.

His system brought two rings to a franchise that hadn't had a champeenship
in 30 years.  And you can bet that if the Pats DO get back to the Bowl,
they won't throw up such a pathetic effort as in 1985.....


'Saw

In 1985 the Bears would have massacred whatever team they met
in the Super Bowl.

The Crazy Met

 Except the Dolphins.

Nope. Dolphins that year did beat the Bears in Miami, but the Dolphins 
were not THAT good; Bears would have had even more incentive to beat
them up in the Super Bowl.

The Crazy Met

DOn't be so sure of yourself there TCM. Most of the Bears' ability that year
was built on inner motivation, had they met and got down early to Miami after
already loosing to them once I could see them doubting theirselves and blowin
it.....Shula not the greatest genius around was a tad smarter than Ditka...

mike 

Miami was sooo up for that game against the Bears; not just the teams the
whole freakin' city. A friend of mine who taught 3rd and 4th grade in Miami
at that time said that the next day all the kids were basically asleep
since they had all been allowed to stay up and watch the whole game. If I recall
the Bears were 11-0 or 12-0 and Miami was the only team that remotely had
a chance to prevent an unbeaten season. I'm pretty sure the SB would have been
very different. Bears defense in the playoffs was awesome!

The Crazy Met

If LandettA hadn't wiffed, the Giants would have kicked their butts.....

mike

    	Quit talkin' about DaBeers and Midgets in my note!

    Yeah, I was there.  Up in the booth wif da Ninj.  Ya gots the best
    of both worlds up there - see the game on the field, and watch the 
    replays on the monitor.  I musta missed Coates on the play.
    
    John Hendry sez Hello to everybody.  He hasn't broken a beachball in 
    a long time, and misses them good ol' days.
    
    NAZZ

    Hey Slasher,
    
    Ya gotta love that Patsie's defense in the firsted half tonite, eh??
    
    35-0 Jets in the first half alone.
    
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    
    JaKe
    

The Pats defense was sieve-like last night, and Boomer was slicing
through them the way Kev cuts the cheese at the OPP.

However, the second half seemed much more like a normal Jets-Pats game,
the second half total being 10-7.   Of course, the Jets went to Nagle
so perhaps that explains it...8^)


'Saw

looks like /er will have to pay up this year.

The Crazy Met

    
    Yabbut is it too early to start talking about who the Patsies should
    draft when they have the #1 pick?
    
    Will Parcell get sacked?
    
    When will the Patsies get a few breaks by the ClemsonRefs(tm)?
    
    What will come first, hell freezin over or the Patsies 1st win?
    
    Heard on the radion thisted AM that so far in this decade, the Pats
    have won NINE (count 'm 9) games.  Soooo, what's the problem?  Ya want
    everything??????
    
    I remain,
    stoopid enough to stay up and watch it until they scored!
    Kev
    

>    
>    Will Parcell get sacked?
>    

Probably not.  His first year in NY was 3-12-1, the second year was 9-7
and then two years after that they won the Super Bowl.

'Saw

    It is too early.  Cincy is pretty bad too..
    

  It would have been nice for us Pats fans if we could have pointed to just
 one positive thing in last night's game but there wasn't anything. Not one.
 Bledsoe stunk. The o-line stunk. The d-line stunk worse. Russell couldn't
 start for any other team in the league. McMurtry couldn't shake a martini.
 The defensive secondary was just awful. This team would have to improve a
 whole heap just to suck. To make matters worse, playing in the AFC East ain't
 the picnic it used to be. We might not win a game all year. 

�  It would have been nice for us Pats fans if we could have pointed to just
� one positive thing in last night's game but there wasn't anything. Not one.
    
    Here's a couple:  The Pats only got beat 10-7 in the second half.  They
    scored their first rushing TD of the season.

>  It would have been nice for us Pats fans if we could have pointed to just
> one positive thing in last night's game but there wasn't anything. Not one.
> Bledsoe stunk. The o-line stunk. The d-line stunk worse. Russell couldn't
> start for any other team in the league. McMurtry couldn't shake a martini.
> The defensive secondary was just awful. This team would have to improve a
> whole heap just to suck. To make matters worse, playing in the AFC East ain't
> the picnic it used to be. We might not win a game all year. 


There was one positive thing.  One of the NE receivers, I forget who
(A TE perhaps), kept going over the middle, taking the shots and trying
to catch the ball.

A receiver who will do that is a good thing, which will pay off when
the team becomes competitive, especially in those 3rd down situations....


JMHO,
'Saw

      re-1
    
      By the time the team is competitive,  the guy going over the middle
    will have his career ended;^)
    
      Tim

�There was one positive thing.  One of the NE receivers, I forget who
�(A TE perhaps), kept going over the middle, taking the shots and trying
�to catch the ball.
    
    Are you thinking of Coates?  He had the ground knock out 2 nice catches
    in traffic.  The Pats do have a nice pair of TEs in Coates and Cook.

   >> Are you thinking of Coates?  He had the ground knock out 2 nice catches
   >> in traffic.  
    
      One of which was ruled incomplete but shouldn't have been. He did
      look good but he won't last long if Bledsoe keeps hanging him out to 
      dry. He seems to be Parcells' favorite of the two tight ends. He's
      more of the rugged Mark Bavaro mold than Cook who is a receiver first
      and a blocker second. I was so disgusted after the first half that
      I didn't bother to watch the second but from what I've heard,the Jets 
      took pity on us or the score could have been even worse. Man, do we
      need next Sunday off.
      
      

    
    	Yabbut Tommy shirley you remember da announcers saying that the Noo
    Yawk Jests have *NEVER* shut out da Patriots!  Thisted goes back to
    1960 so the fact that they scored with a REAL touchdown to put some
    points on da board, instead of those girly-mon field goal attempts had
    to be, imho, "one good thang".
    
    I remain,
    Kev_on_Stats!
    

�   >> Are you thinking of Coates?  He had the ground knock out 2 nice catches
�   >> in traffic.  
�    
�      One of which was ruled incomplete but shouldn't have been. 
    
    Both were ruled incomplete.  The second one had a chance at being ruled
    a fumble if it weren't incomplete (not sure if the DB knocked it out or
    if Coates slamming into the ground on his back did it).

I was thinking of Coates.

Poor guy looked totally knackered late in the game....  But he has guts.


'Saw

    THE GAME of the season:
    
    
    Sunday, December 12
    
    
    Cincinnati travels to Foxboro to take on the Patriots.
    
    NAZZ

    
    Think we could have a two week buildup ala the SuperBowl in this note
    for the upcoming Cards-Pats game?  
    
    lemme start it off
    
    
    Pats sip! Cardrool!
    
    boC

    BTW, the over-under for the game here in two weeks is 30,000. Fans,
    that is.
    
    brews

    The Cards did have some misfortune via the refs yesterday, but they
    still sip as well.

yeah Brews bold prediction for the Cards is becoming a surer and sure bet of
earning for him an honored spot in topic #50.


/er what's the deal you have with JoJ? is it for the season series??

The Crazy Met

    	TommyB, there was something positive about last night.  I only paid
    two dollars more for a pitcher of Killian's Red than I would have paid for
    12 ounces of some swill beer had the contest been at Foxboro.  Craze we
    bet a six pack on each game in the series.  The last two years the Pats
    won the second game to give me the push.  Cincinnati vs. New England in
    the Marshall Faulk Bowl!
    
    				/Don

     Don't forget Tampa is in the running too

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...HEY SLASHER, SEND THAT 6 PACK RIGHT AWAY
    WILLYA!!!!
    
    

    Atlanta look solid, huh?
    

    	Come and get it Waddle!
    
    				/Don

What's this about moving the Pats to Connecticut? 

I heard a blurb that they're working on some contract that if approved
would have the team move somewhere to Connecticut.

Any details? Insight?

TTom

    
     There has been talk in here for awhlie about Connecticut trying to 
    lure the Pats to the Hartford area. In fact, there's a front page
    story in the Globe (that I haven't read yet) about Connecticut
    approving $252 million in financing for a new stadium. A couple 
    of more games like this past Sunday's abd Connecticut might want to
    rethink this.

    Waddle's a BC grad and a Bear, get with it /Don..
    

The CT legislature approved funding for a stadium in Hartford if the Pats
commit to moving into it. This depends on Fred Murray (the old Pats owner)
convincing Orthwein (sp?) (the current Pats owner) to sell the team to Murray.
Murray would then commit to moving the team to CT.

Keep in mind that no one is happy with the Foxboro facility. But for the MA
legislature to get anything done can take years - just witness what shenanigans
went on to get a new Boston Garden built.

The Crazy Met

Folks down here are experiencing a plethora of morning wood over this
possibility.   They are holding rallies, the legislature is legislating....

Personally, I think it is a waste of time.  I will believe that the
Patriots will be in CT when, and not until, the opening kickoff of their
first game here.   

But I'll tell you right now it's NOT going to happen.....



btw, have I told you all lately how much the Pats uniforms SUCK?


'Saw

'Saw

why are you so sure it won't happen? because the NFL won't allow it? NFL
has a tough time stopping franchise moves (see Al Davis and Bob Irsay)

The Crazy Met

    They don't suck, 'Saw, they blow, remember?
    

>why are you so sure it won't happen? because the NFL won't allow it? NFL
>has a tough time stopping franchise moves (see Al Davis and Bob Irsay)

I dunno.  Just a feeling.  I don't see the folks from Massachusetts giving
up their team.....


'Saw

But do you see the MA legislature doing anything within the next 10-20 years
to help keep the Pats?? Not getting into the issue of should governments
do this or not, CT clearly has, MA therefore likely needs to come up
with something. If they had such a bad time getting anything done for the
Celtics and Bruins I just don't see the Pats faring any better.

The Crazy Met

    I really don't think the NFL would step in to prevent a team from
    moving from one spot in New England to another.

Orthwhine will never sell the team to Fran Murray, since he can't come up 
with enough scratch.  (As I recall, the Whiner wants $110 Mil, and the Murray 
group can only com up with $104 Mil).

Orthwein will hang on until somebody comes up with the $110 mil, or until he 
has an excuse to move the team to St. Louis.

=Bob=

�Orthwhine will never sell the team to Fran Murray, since he can't come up 
�with enough scratch.  (As I recall, the Whiner wants $110 Mil, and the Murray 
�group can only com up with $104 Mil).
    
    I'm sure CT could find $6 mil in that stadium bill...

I don't know that much about the Mass legislature, but I think they'd
want to keep the Pats.

=Bob= has the best point, but then there is always another $6 million to
be found.   Hell, I'm sure Shamu the Governor can work a deal with the
Mashentucket Pequots to put a few more slots in Foxwoods, marked 
"NE Pats to Harfaa or Bust"


'Saw

    Ya right, TCM.  And the already overtaxed taxpayers of Massachusetts 
    are going to jump for joy when they realize that their cash
    strapped state is going to build a stadium for the worst team in
    football.  No thanks.  They've got a billionaire owner that could
    basically gives a hoots ass what's good for the people of New England.
    
    The Garden was different.  It's being built with private funds, 
    although the state did deed the land to the builder. 
    
    					Steve

  As Craze as already pointed out, the NFL has already lost in court when they
 tried to prevent Al Davis from moving the Raiders. If Murray buys the Pats and 
 wants to move 'em there's nothing the league can do short of begging him not
 to do it. Murray is using the old Irsay/Davis ploy of ringing concessions out
 of a desperate city/state to line his own pockets. He's got the pols down in
 the Nutmeg state falling all over themselves to build him a stadium. How much
 of his own dough is he tossing into this joint? Not much if any I'm sure.

    
    Yabbut what if we "loaned" the Patsies to Harffa for a couple of years
    while (or until) the new stadiom is built.  Ya know, we could have the
    right of re-call and bring them back.
    
    and, oh by the way,  I really don't care if they stay or if they go.
    I don't go to Foxboro and since they (until recently) didn't sell out
    the stadium, I don't see them on tee vee.  I gotta listen to them on
    the radion.  This works out pretty well because then I can get chores
    done around the house and not be glued to the couch and tee vee so it
    really doesn;t matter to me where the game is played.  It's all the
    same at my house.
    
    :^)
    
    I remain,
    wondering if anybody likes da new uniforms?
    Kev
    

�    Ya right, TCM.  And the already overtaxed taxpayers of Massachusetts 
�    are going to jump for joy when they realize that their cash
�    strapped state is going to build a stadium for the worst team in
�    football.  
    
    Wrong.  As we discussed in here earlier, Weld's plan calls for the
    Stadium/Convention Center to be funded primarily with legalized
    gambling in Boston Harbor.

�  As Craze as already pointed out, the NFL has already lost in court when they
� tried to prevent Al Davis from moving the Raiders. 
    
    And as I already pointed out, the move would be within the same market.

�    and, oh by the way,  I really don't care if they stay or if they go.
�    I don't go to Foxboro and since they (until recently) didn't sell out
�    the stadium, I don't see them on tee vee.  
    
    Either you're not looking hard enough, or the cable company in Grafton
    doesn't carry Channel 22 out of Springfield.

Kev,

but if they moved you could see them every week since Hartford is beyond
the black-out area.

The Crazy Met

    
    Mtm, it's the latter.  No Ch22.
    
    Craze, but then how would the house chores get done?
    
    
    I remain,
    I guess just full of questions today....
    Kev
    

    Mac,
    
    And you don't think gambling is a regressive form of taxation?
    
    					Steve

Pet Peeve alert...

 Personally I don't consider any sort of gambling a "tax". A tax is the
goverment taking money directly out of your pocket when you purchase a goods or
service or in the case of an income tax directly out of your paycheck.
 
 Gambling is an individuals desire to try and convert a small amount of money
into a larger amount by taking a chance where the odds are not in your favor.
No goods or service is purchased and the individual has free choice whether or
not to "give" his money away....

 State run gambling isn't a tax in any way shape or form much less a regressive
tax like a tax on food or clothing is....

Metz
 

    re: /Don
    
    Hey, if the Pats move to CT, will you and your buddy from that appeared
    in SI still be allowed into the stadium?
    
    Heck, Hartford is only a couple of hours from NJ, why not just buy a
    green hat and root for a real team and give up on those shiny pants
    girly mon Pats?
    
    JoJ_the_unchained
    

    OK, Metz we'll go by your definition.  But, let me add to my point. 
    
    Massachusetts recently overturned the public education system in the 
    state.  They'll be pumping in something like $1B/yr within 5 years to 
    the cities and towns.  Problem is, nobody knows where the money's going 
    to come from!  As we all know, it'll most likely come from increased
    taxes.
    
    Wouldn't the money from these "floating casinos" be better used to fund
    education or provide financial help to students attending state
    colleges/universities?
    
    I'd rather have my tax money go to something a bit more productive than
    a domed stadium for the billionaire owner from St. Louis, thank you. 
    That's where I'm coming from.
    
    					Steve

 Maybe after they skim their 80% adminstrative cost off the Keno money
 they'll be something left for the schools. I'll bet that's the snowjob
 they're selling on the hill....

 mike

    At this point I dont care if they use the money for the Domed Stadium
    which by the way will bring/keep a lot more in this city then the pats.
    Possible SB site, Soccer, concert, etc, etc, etc.  So all the local
    businesses/businesmen will benefit from this.  Which in turn brings
    more tax money into the state.  And if they send some money towards the
    school's thats even better.  Bottom Line is they better get there act
    together SOON... Because casion gambling is coming to Mass weather we
    want it or not.  The Indians (not sure which tribe or where) are
    looking at several sites to put a casino on in MASSACHUSETTS.  So we
    get the benefit's of gambling with NO TAX DOLLARS... so lets see if I
    get this straight.. 
    
    	1) We (the state) could put in casino's, on or around boston harbor
    	   and use the profits directly towards building a stadium and then
    	   continue to run/operate them bring money into the state for
    	   other uses...
    					or
    	2) Let an Indian tribe build a casino on Indian land, they keep all
    	   profits and dont pay taxes ??????
    
    	I dont know If im understanding this correctly anyone who doesnt
    	think number 1 is the way to go has more problems then anyone in
    	here can help them with :-)
    
    Like Ive said before, the casino's wont premote more gambling, and now
    with an Indian Tribe looking for somewhere to put one, its only a
    matter of time before there's a casino anyway so why not take advantage
    of it now....
    
    If this doesnt go thru its just another wasted opputunity....

�    And you don't think gambling is a regressive form of taxation?
    
    At least with state run gambling I have a choice over whether or not
    I'll be taxed.

    
    As far as I'm concerned, the part of the lottery revenues that get paid
    back to bettors (maybe around 50% tops, because these lotteries are the
    worst kind of suckers' bets) is not a tax, and the part that the state
    keeps is.  What else can you call it?  It's a tax paid for the
    "privilege" of gambling with the state, just like the taxes paid for
    the privilege of buying cigarettes or alcohol or whatever else.  It
    also happens to be a whopping tax; like I said, upwards of 50% and
    beyond, depending on the game.  I see no difference with the lottery 
    just because it might be a service that some feel is the most frivolous 
    and discretionary activity of all (I feel the same way about
    cigarettes, but I'm not going to tell cigarette smokers that they're
    not paying taxes, but rather are making a "voluntary contribution" to
    the state).
    
    glenn
       

    Glenn, nobody said it wasn't a tax.  Metz and I were just pointing out
    that it was a voluntary tax.  Steve seemed to think it was a tax that
    hit everyone.

re: .489

The argument that stadiums bring in incredible amounts of revenue, leading to
more tax revenue, etc. is not that clear. A number of studies have shown that
the benefits are generally far far less than anticipated.

The Crazy Met

    
      Word is that Zolak is getting most of the snaps in practice so
     far this week (Courtesy of The Globe). The reason given is that
     they want Bledsoe to rest his arm. That may or may not be true,
     but I hope Parcells doesn't hesitate to go to Zolak if Bledsoe
     shows once again that he can't get it done. Bill owes it to the
     rest of the team and the fans up here to give us a chance at at
     least one win. I realize that Bledsoe is in the midst of a learning
     process but I can't see how he's gonna learn all that much getting
     crumpled and tossed aside. The other thing is that the Pats have 
     brought in  Dave Bavaro to work at inside linebacker. If they had 
     just drafted Jones, he could be playing inside LB and Scott could 
     be starting QB and we might not be enduring the agony that we are.

    Parcells has 2 weeks to get ready for the next game.  I'd hope he'd be
    working in some of the backups.

    	The season's shot.  Go for the draft pick (and offer season ticket
    holders a 20% rebate).
    
    				/Don

    I don't think they have to "go" for the draft pick. With the talent
   of this team they can play as well as they're capable of and still have 
   a good shot at the pick. Other than Vincent Brown and Harlowe (on a good
   day), I can't think of any they have that is above average at their pos-
   ition.

    
    >>	The season's shot.  Go for the draft pick (and offer season ticket
    >>holders a 20% rebate).
    
    Spoken like a true season ticket holder, eh Slasher??
    
    I agree with ya on the draft pick part, but anybody who was dumb enuf
    to put the money out deserves to lose it.
    
    (8^)
    
    JaKe
    

    Tommy you forgot our 2 Pro Bowlers -- Bruce Armstrong and Marv Cook.

  Armstrong coming back from that knee injury and isn't 100% yet and Cook
 seems to be in Parcells' doghouse. I think Bill believes taht little 5'10"
 180 lb. guys should be receivers adn big guys like Cook should be bashers.
 But as receiving tight ends go, Cook *is* above the league average so that
 makes a total of three.

�I think Bill believes taht little 5'10"
� 180 lb. guys should be receivers adn big guys like Cook should be bashers.
    
    Cook says the first thing he did after he found out Parcells was going
    to be the new head coach was to request a neck brace like the other
    linemen wear.

>    
>    Cook says the first thing he did after he found out Parcells was going
>    to be the new head coach was to request a neck brace like the other
>    linemen wear.

Yabbut, in New York Bavarro was always way up on the reception list.  IN
1986 he was their bread and butter receiver....


'Saw

    Yabbut, ya gotta throw sometime and with the WRs and QBs the Giants
    had, it's no surprise the TE was high up on the reception list.

 Bull, Mac!! Bavaro was up there cause Bavaro was GREAT!!!!

 Bavarro was as well rounded a tight end as has been in the league in some 
time. He was certainly a hell of a lot better than what we have. Given Parcells'
and Perkins' conservatism and the wr that we have, if we had someone like Mark
Bavarro, he'd be leading this team in receptions, too.

If you look back at the 1986 season, one thing you find over and over
was Bavaro getting open up the seam in the zone.  Simms (who proved by
Super Bowl XX that he was a top echelon QB -- better than anything that
Pats have had) routinely would find him there, and hit him.

The Giants WR corps did get it done in 1986, especially McConkey in the
clutch 3rd down situations......  Bavaro was a monster, and the Giants
running game was tough too.....


That Pats could use a TE like Bavaro, thats for sure....


fw

>>  That Pats could use a TE like Bavaro, thats for sure....



     So couldn't the Jints......

 mike

>     So couldn't the Jints......

Amen......

Unfortunately, right now Marv Cook looks totally lost on the field.  He is 
obviously having trouble adjustoimg to the new offense.

    I agree with Big Mac on the Bavarro issue...who else could Simms throw
    to? Oh, I remember, that perennial pro-bowler, Phil McConkey...
    
    re: Slasher
    
    Drew Bledsoe <= Browning Nagle
    
    

>    I agree with Big Mac on the Bavarro issue...who else could Simms throw
>    to? Oh, I remember, that perennial pro-bowler, Phil McConkey...
    
Do me, JOJ.


Simms connected with Manuel quite often, but not so much on 3rd down.

I think it was Manuel, or Stacey Robinson, that Phil hit on the big
4th down play in Minnesota, late in the game which helped the Giants
turn it up another notch in that season.

As to McConkey, he was good at what he did, and he was a spark plug
for the team.  What more could you ask for?


Jets self-destructed yesterday.  So did the Giants.....


'Saw

    According to the Worcester paper, Fran Murray has 2 stadia ready to be
    built if he can buy the team from Orthwein.  The CT legislature
    approved a bill to fund a stadium in the Hartford area if the Pats
    commit to moving there.  There is a group in St. Louis willing to build
    a stadium for Murray if he'll move the Pats there.  Meanwhile Orthwein
    is being very quiet.  Massachusetts is asking for $6 mill/year plus
    rent to build a stadium for Orthwein.  Speculation is that after the
    expansion franchises are announced there will be a bidding war between
    the losers over the Pats.

    	Denny and I were wondering if any of our southern Deccies could put
    us up for the Super Bowl in Atlanta?  It's obvious that after lasted
    Sunday's game the Patriots will be the AFC representative.  Thanks in
    advance.
    
    				/Don

 >         Denny and I were wondering if any of our southern Deccies could
 >   put    us up for the Super Bowl in Atlanta?  It's obvious that after
 >   lasted    Sunday's game the Patriots will be the AFC representative. 
 >   Thanks in    advance.   
    
    And next week the 'skins fans will be figuring that they will be the Pats
    opponents.
    
    boC

How did Bledsoe do in the win?

I hear he got inured, but did he do anything before then?

Mike

    
    
     Bledsoe played allright but they where loosing when he got hurt. 
    Secules came in the Cards fell apart and Pats won.  Bledsoe is not
    putting up ROY type numbers but has shown he IS going to be a great
    QB.  I did hear on the tube that he won't play on Sunday against the
    Houscum (is that what youze guys call them in here?), but the sprain
    knee is not serious.
    
    Jerry

    Hear ye... Hear ye.... Special Announcement
    
    Patriots Look For Assistance for Halftime show....!@!!?
    
    Yassirree,
    Lisa Coles' asst PR director for the NEPATS, is looking for all
    would-be Elvis impersonators to hep out with the halftime show.
    Don't matter how good/bad you is, just call Lisa at WEEI or the
    Stadium.
    
    So go home and buff up yo' rhinestones, break out yo' favorite gaudy
    white jumpsuit, uncrate those Vitalis and Brylcreem bottles and
    git some throat spray to practice some warbling fer Sunday. No
    experience necessary; but a few shots a Jack will sure help!
    Don't ferget yo' Percosans, Percosetts, ups, downs and in-betweens!
    
    
    Goin' home to practice
    "Thank ya. Thank ya very much."
    "Hunk-a-Hunk-A-Burnin' Love!"
    "BaabaaBlue Blue BLue Christmas!"
    
    How'd ah sound?
    MikeL
    
    

>How'd ah sound?
>MikeL

pathetic.

The Crazy Met

    Elvis impersonators at halftime?  I knew this new logo would start
    leading to stuff like this.
    
    When is the San Diego chicken scheduled to make an appearance?

    
    MikeL,
    
    	You couldn't carry a tune in a bucket!
    
    Claybone

    
    	Yabbut Denny said that the reason slash don didn't go lasted night
    was 'cause he's got a baaaad cold and since he wants ta be sure to
    be able to make the Patsies game on Sunday, he was medicatin himself
    with brandy.
    
    	What I wanna know, cause Denny didn't 'splain it, is  who is this
    babe Brandy that /don is gettin medicated from?
    
    I remain,
    Kev_for_Jed_Clampit
    

�    	Yabbut Denny said that the reason slash don didn't go lasted night
�    was 'cause he's got a baaaad cold and since he wants ta be sure to
�    be able to make the Patsies game on Sunday, he was medicatin himself
�    with brandy.
    
    I hear that /Don, 'Saw, and ACChris are teaming up on a writing project
    -- The Excuse Bible.  It will be a quick desktop reference to explain
    yourself out of any situation.

    	Sad but true Kev, given a choice between a ::SPROTS GitTogether and
    the HaplessPats, the HaplessPats (Elvis Halftime Show and all) get the
    nod.  No offense (appropriate phrase for the Patriots' Note).
    
    				/Don

	The NFL Suits fined Corwin Brown $3,500 dollars for a perfectly 
legal hit on Derek Ware.  I guess the litmus test for whether a hit is 
legal, is not if you use the crown of your helmet when delivering the blow 
(Brown didn't), but whether the player hit (the hittee), is knocked out of 
the game.  Good thing they didn't do this when Donnie Shell played, 'cuz he 
never would've made any money playing this game.

				/Don

�	The NFL Suits fined Corwin Brown $3,500 dollars for a perfectly 
�legal hit on Derek Ware.  I guess the litmus test for whether a hit is 
�legal, is not if you use the crown of your helmet when delivering the blow 
�(Brown didn't), but whether the player hit (the hittee), is knocked out of 
�the game.  
    
    I was amazed at the Boston sportscaster who likened this hit to the one
    that paralyzed Darryl Stingley.
    
    I wonder if Brown would have been fined if the hit was against somebody
    besides a Cardinal.

    
    And the Cardinals all agree that the hit was legal.  Hey, it could be
    worse.  Cecil got fined 30K for two VERY similar hits.  He's got a
    bigger rep though.  Could you hear the Cardinals fans chanting "thirty
    thousand dollars" after Brown's hit?  It was funny.
    
    Credit should be given to the Cards and Redskins (Cecil's hits) for not
    whining about it the way the folks in Philly did.
    
    They're trying to turn the NFL into soccer.
    
    boC

    
    	Yabbut and Denny said that he also head that somebody with the Pats
    said that he was gonna bring one of the "NFL bonecrunching hits" videos
    they're selling with him and show it to them!
    
    Seems that there might be a bit of hypocracy with the NFL, hawking
    bone crunching stuff to the unwashed masses and also fining a guy for a
    bonecrusher play!
    
    I remain,
    wondering what Mr. G Rillar would do?
    Kev
    

    
    Hey, the NFL gets money both ways.  Fine the players, then sell the
    tape.
    
    nutting wrong wif dat!

    	Patrick Forte, the vice president of football operations is
    supposedly going to include "NFL Rocks" with his appeal of the fine on
    Brown.  The Suits are trying to convince the SortOfFan that when played
    within certain rules, subject to change weekly, injuries won't happen. 
    Of course anybody who knows anything about football knows this is
    folly.  It's a violent game and people are going to get hurt, if this
    aspect turns you off then watch Disney On Ice or a soccer match.
    
    				/Don

	re fines:

	Brews, I believe the fines levied against the players, and the teams
	for that matter, are donated to charites. 


	billl

    Who's to say this isn't simply nfl using publicity from fines to
    advertise their game.  Main argument against that is to say that nfl is
    not that sleazy.  Weak argument.
    
    And I am somewhat concerned with the way spreads are going vis a vis
    eventual results.  Denver - GB last sunday is latest game where unusual
    spread is followed by favored team going crazy.  It was an understated
    fact that the main reason nfl wanted instant replay was because of the
    need for control where so much gambling was going on.
    
    Call it just a feeling or just sour grapes over my poor prognosticating
    lately - tho I'm still surviving koh

I saw a really neat helmet the other day on TV that has an airbag collar on it
that deploys when the impact is made with the crown of the head. It's supposed
to take up to 500lbs of pressure  off the spine.

All you have to do is wait until a crucial play. Whpa somebody on top of the
head with the foreign object hidden in  your trousers  deploying the  airbag
and  making them sit out a play to get a new helmet....The NFL would rival the
WWF and Conrad  dobler and his bag of cheap tricks could make a comeback...

It's perfect...

 Metz

	UGH!  The worst thing that happened to the Pats was Commander Cody 
getting hurt.  Houston's 3 million dollar backup was about the only hope 
the Pats had.  He threw more bad passes than a nerd in a single's bar.
I didn't figure Moon to miss wide open receivers.  Boy I bet the Dolphins 
wish they had Secules now (I wish they did).  

				/Don

    The Pats snatched another defeat from the jaws of victory.  I couldn't
    believe the announcers saying what a great game Cody Carlson was
    playing until he got hurt.  If the Pats' DBs had hands we woulda seen
    Cody benched and the Pats with a decent lead.

    	Hey BigMac who was the announcer?  Namath?  Something was wrong
    with Cody prior to his going down because before that offensive series
    Moon was warming up.  Then Carlson came limping off the bench and
    started to throw to Warren.  I thought the whole ice throwing incident
    between Jeffries and Gilbride was directed at the referees, course we
    had the offensive lineman and their big butts shielding most of the
    Houston bench from our view.  Man the way the Pats are playing those
    three December/January games (two after major holidays) are looking
    pretty tough.  Here's hoping for warm weather at least.
    
    				/Don

�    	Hey BigMac who was the announcer?  Namath?  
    
    No, somebody and that ex-Raider TE.
    
�Something was wrong
�    with Cody prior to his going down because before that offensive series
�    Moon was warming up.  
    
    Carlson suffered a pulled groin on his TD scramble.  He got taped up
    while the Pats had the ball.  He went out for the next series but had
    to come out when he found out the hard way he couldn't plant on that
    leg and throw.

    	Todd C?  Boy does that guy love the sound of his own voice.  Cripes
    I was better off sitting in the drizzle than having to listen to that
    cacophonous claptrap.
    
    				/Don            

�    	Todd C?  Boy does that guy love the sound of his own voice.  Cripes
�    I was better off sitting in the drizzle than having to listen to that
�    cacophonous claptrap.
    
    Yeah, Christianson.  He did come up with some beauts.  3 or 4 penalty
    flags being thrown on one play was described as a "cascade of amber
    linen".  Sheesh.

 Charlie Jones was working with Todd...what a team....love to listen to Todd
 do Donkey games....

      I'm sure you do Mike since you both are anti's!
    
      I did like one of Deirdorks coments the other night.
    
      Elway has been harrassed all night,  maybe he should tell his linemen
    to put on rear view mirrors so they can see whats happening behind
    them.  
    
       It was a great slam to the donk OL that wasn't playing.  Maybe
    Elway pissed 'em off.  Na, that would never happen (-).
    
      Tim

    Namath wasn't hired thised year.  I loved when Sean was talking about
    something the other night and used the word "pah-lay" instead of
    "play". He then declared: "I'm slipping into my Joe Namath
    impression"...  

    	I was in the process of taking a late lunch this afternoon and
    listening to Eddie Anvilhead.  He was in a tither about the offensive
    lineman for Houston who took Sunday's game off against the Patsies to
    be with his wife who was giving birth.  Well old Eddie was calling the
    fact that the Oilers didn't pay the guy for Sunday's game typical
    neanderthal NFL mentality, when who should decide to call but my old
    ::SPROTS adversary DocQuixote�  Couldn't mistake that voice of his.
    
    	Well Doc was taking his usual stance against the Oilers management
    but, honest to God, he praised the Boston press for not pandering to 
    management of the local teams when such issues arise here, unlike in 
    Houston.  Typically for Doc he dragged on and on, but Eddie took a real 
    liking to him and suggested some local restaurants where Doc could get 
    some Texas-style barbequed ribs (guess he's off his meatless/health kick).
    
    	I must confess that I felt a pang of regret that the good Doctor
    is not here in notes so I could take him to the woodshed just one more
    time on the RUSSELL vs. chamberlain debate.  I really miss him and all
    the other agigtators who have left our notes brotherhood for bigger and
    better things (in some instances).
    
    				/Don

                                                         
>    Well Doc was taking his usual stance against the Oilers management
>    but, honest to God, he praised the Boston press for not pandering to 
>    management of the local teams when such issues arise here, unlike in 
>    Houston. 
    
    What a brown-noser that DrM is. ;-)  Praising a stooge like Eddie
    Anvilhead and his Boston media cohorts for not pandering to local teams
    (did the word "Celtics" come up in this conversation?).  Hahahahahahaha.
    I've heard it all now...
    
    glenn
     

    	Actually yes Glenn, I'm paraphrasing what Doc said, but is was
    something like "When the Red Sox, Patriots or Celtics pull a stunt like
    this the media doesn't let them off the hook like the Houston press
    does the Oilers".  But to give credit where credit is due, Doc actually
    came up with a rib-tickler when Eddie was explaining that good Texas
    barbeque is hard to find up here Doc said he doesn't go looking for
    good clam chowder in Houston either.
    
    				/Don

    Doc eats meat, just not pork... last I heard anyway...
    
    Just like him to suck up to Eddie though.  Probably thought there
    was a free Reebok shirt to go with it...
    

    	Ugh!  The Patriots should have a new slogan for this year "Losing
    Ugly".
    
    				/Don

    Nice seeing you /er and the boys at Partners Pub... And thanks for the
    drinks they were the best....FREE!!!!!!!!! It was an UGLY lose...
    I still have not heard of any "kicking" tryouts as of today... :-]
    
    
    REK

      I thought all the the patsies games were ugly losses?
    
      Ti
    

    
    Slasher...  I feel for ya buddy...  I for one thought the 
    Patsies would have been doing much better this year than 
    they have...  Like 2 wins at least !!!   HA!!!!
    
    BG

/er wouldn't have any sympathy for you, no need to give him any.

HtH,

The Crazy Met

little consolation /er. Pats have been worse than the Mets over
the last decade (Mets won something and competed for most of the time). 
And at least with the Mets they don't have games in 20 degree weather.

The Crazy Met

    	Agreed Craze, the Pats have stunk as much as the Mets have choked
    in the last ten years.  By the way we mainly football fan types happen
    to think that 20� fahrenheit is pretty balmy.
    
    				/Don

> By the way we mainly football fan types happen 
> to think that 20� fahrenheit is pretty balmy.
    
while most folks would call this insanity.

The Crazy Met

>> By the way we mainly football fan types happen 
>> to think that 20� fahrenheit is pretty balmy.
    
 and all this time I thought playing in 20 degree weather was to keep the
 beer cold...........

 mike

    	It does save on ice costs Mike.  Hey Craze, you baseball/soccer
    types wouldn't understand...
    
    				/Don

/er some things ar not worth understanding ...

The Crazy Met

> Hey Craze, you baseball/soccer types wouldn't understand...
  
    That's right, we discriminating consumers demand that the games be
    played on god's green grass and under god's blue sky.  If it were
    anything but I wouldn't even bother waiting to see how good the
    tailgating is.  Besides, /er, just because the Patriots move doesn't
    mean you can't still tailgate in Foxboro.  I'm sure if you ask nicely 
    Eddie Anvilhead'll still let you do it for the $10... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

      TCM,
    
      Since you can't handle the mainly cold, does this mean you own an
    electric blanket?
    
      Tim

    nope, never had an electric blanket.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

�    nope, never had an electric blanket.
    
�    The Crazy Met
    
	How 'bout jammies with bunny rabbit feets then?

				/Don

    He has Knickerboxers Underroos(tm)

    As this relates to NE Pats it may be good news in that one out of town
    prospective bidder will be taken care of.
    
    That leaves Memphis and Jacksonville as possible homes for pats.
    
    The Rams originally were in the All America Conference and possibly
    were originally in Baltimore.  In the late 40s when I was more
    interested in Kukla Fran and Ollie (did I hear they were making a
    comback?) there were a couple of attempts at a rvial league to nfl and
    the final result were the Baltimore,Rams,Browns and one other nfl team
    (Pitt?).
    

�   The Rams originally were in the All America Conference and possibly
�   were originally in Baltimore.  In the late 40s when I was more
  
Rams were originally in Cleveland.  Colts were originally in Dallas.  Dunno if
Baltimore had a team.

    	You know, when Zolak was warming up yesterday I really thought that
    Parcells was going to swallow his pride and put him in.  Next week
    against Buffalo the quality of the opposition will be considerably
    greater than it has been the last two weeks (when the Pats actually 
    looked like they could've won).
    
    				/Don

   I could understand why Parcells might not want to take Bledsoe out
  if the kid was struggling. After all, Drew is supposed to be our qb
  of the future and you want him to learn and get some confidence and 
  realistically we aren't going to the playoffs anyways. But Secules
  is just a backup. If he ain't doing the job then yank his butt out
  of there and give Zolak a shot. Z-man certainly would be hard pressed 
  to do worse than that spirit-killing INT in the endzone. It's painfully
  obvious why Miami let Secules go. What's not so obvious is why Parcells
  is in love wuth the guy.

	I watched most of this game, while reading the new insurance options,
	(Rip Van Winkle got nuthin' on me) and saw that glare Parcells gave
	Sisson after he missed a field goal.  Wow, if looks could kill.

	Then "noclue" Secules tosses an inti in the endzone and he gets a
	pat on the butt from "The New England Messiah", otherwise known as
	Bill Parcells.  What IS this guy's problem with Zolak?  I know,
	everyone keeps talking about the "attitude" thing, but I really
	find it hard to believe that a coach of Parcells' supposed caliber
	is carrying this grudge this long.  It's no wonder Zolak has an
	attitude!  Wouldn't you?

	Turner continued to look good.  The defense gets a B- from me. 
	A step up, but there's still room for improvement.


	billl

	Well Billl, aparently Zolak's problem is he too free a spirit for 
the coach.  According to the Globe both defensive coordinator Al Groh and 
Maurice Hurst are hinting that the problem here certainly isn't the defense.
Hey guys, who gave up game winning drives late in the fourth quarter the 
last two games, Secules, the offense?  If you hold the Bills to 9 points then 
you can crow, but Seattle and Indianapolis don't exacltly bring back 
memories of the Montana 49ers or the Fouts Chargers.  Hey like the paper 
said, even Rod Rust won against the Colts!

				/Don

    
    These games like New England-Seattle and New England-Indy are so bad
    that it's almost purely academic that someone even gets the "W".  You
    might as well watch the games looking just for the good and bad points 
    and put the final score at a priority somewhere down around which team
    has the uglier uniform.  That the Indy fans were cascading the field
    with boos as their QB was kneeling down to run out the clock on a
    *victory* speaks volumes about the quality of play (and Indy fans
    aren't exactly known for Philadelphia-like dispositions...)
    
    glenn
         

What you guys are finding out is that Bill Parcells loves Bill Parcells
and Bill's never wrong. To admit Secules sucks would be to admit he was
wrong......

mike

    
  >> These games like New England-Seattle and New England-Indy are so bad
  >> that it's almost purely academic that someone even gets the "W".  

     It may be academic to the casual viewer but it ain't academic to Pats 
     fans at least not this one. I'd rather have an ugly win than a pretty 
     loss. Of course, what we're getting lately is butt ugly losses. I want 
     to see some wins. I don't expect a whole lot of 'em but I'd like to see
     a few and screw the aesthetics.

    
    	Yesterday listening to the post game show on the radio, Gino or
    	maybe it was Gil Santo commented on how well Sisson was booming
    	field goals through the uprights from 60 yards out! What I want
    	to know is what the hell is he trying to prove? I mean when was
    	the last time they tried a 60 yard field goal...I would think
    	especially with his consistency, that he should set up some place
    	around the forty where 85% of attempts come from anyway, and 
    	practice more realistic game situations. Also this comparison
    	thing with Bledsoe and Mirer, what you have to remember is Mirer
    	is two years older than Bledsoe. That's a big difference at this
    	stage in their careers. Plus Mirer has REAL receivers to throw to.

    I heard something about the colts fans booing their team running out
    the clock for the victory.  I was listening as pats wasted their final
    time out and as soon as the interception occurred knew it was over
    since this wasn't Michigan-Illinois.
    
    Apparently the spread not being covered was the reason for the boos or
    else fans want to get the full 60 minutes worth.
    
    Perhaps instead of having the qb drop to a knee they should just
    concede at the point where defense has no timeouts to cover remaining
    seconds.  Patriots need to learn to save those timeouts but apparently
    they had [just] called them on the last plays of colt's possession.
    
    The problem with use of timeouts at the end of the game is that it
    takes fourth grade level arithmetic and where in the world are
    you going to find a football coach with that type of math. ability.
    
    bill

    Another Missed FG and another close loss.. Is it the offense or the 
    defense ?  The Detroit, both seattle games and now this one were all
    in reach of the offense and at least 2 of them should have been won.
    And in all these close games there were missed FG and INT in the red
    zone... so is it the offense's fault, you bet your a$$, but should
    the defense be offended, excited or mouthing off, I dont think so
    seeing that theyve givin up more pts then any other defense in the
    AFC (only the Rams and Falcons have givin up more pts).  Id say thats
    no reason to seek praise...
    
    They need a new owner and less distractions (and write off this year).
    They are still rebuilding, longest rebuild process Ive ever seen...
    
    								MaB

This team needs a Legitamate QB. They have all rookies or 2nd string backups
at the reigns. Lets get us a veteran, to show the youngsters a thing or two.
There's know to learn from. I think if Hugh Millen was QB this year the pats
would have 3-4 wins. Secules is not gonna get the job done and Zolak had 
2 dream games last year, and that's it.

They have some quality offensive players they just need a solid QB to lead them.

 

	re .-1   Steve DeBerg is available  :-)

	Kevin

    	Kevin,
    
    	Shush up! The next thing ya know, we'll be watching DeBerg
    	hobbling around at Foxboro. 8-)>
    
    	Scott

  Parcells isn't about to bring in any veteran QBs. I'm not happy
 that he's continuing to play Secules but at least this coach and
 front office aren't looking for any quick fixes and panicking when
 something doesn't seem to work. We weren't going  to the playoffs 
 this year. We probably won't next year either. But we can over the 
 next few years build a team that will be successful for several years.
 That's what Parcells is attempting to do. You need only look at how
 many players he's let go and how none of them have caught on anywhere
 else to realize that the guy knows talent and we didn't very much of it.
 I'd like some wins as much as any Pats fan but for now I'll give Bill 
 the benefit of the doubt. I think he knows a little more about football
 than I do. It'd be pretty damned said if he didn't.

    Best news I heard all day was Singleton getting the gate.  Half their
    1st round picks in the last 10 years are gone.  Our sincere thanks to
    Steinberg, Mendes and the biggest stiff of the bunch, Jankovich.
    
    					Steve

    Stop it now, Steve.  Singleton was a Mildcat.

    I told you guys to hang in there with Leonard Russell.

	Heard on the way to work this morning...

	Patriots named their new team doctor...




	Dr. Jack Kavorkian

    Parcells has invited a couple of kickers for tryouts this week.

    	At least we got Patriettes' Cheerleader posters after the game. 
    Hey Mike Childs, what did you think of the Foxboro "mob" cheering
    Secules' injury?  8^)  And speaking of that, the way Cornelius was
    carrying on you would've thought that the "mob" was saying stuff about
    his mother or something.  Course I can understand him and the rest of
    the Bills wanting Secules to stay in the game.  He was an asset, for
    Buffalo!
    
    				/Don

I wasn't surprised Don. I was there against Seattle when they booed Grogan
off the field and annointed Tony Eason as a saint. I then saw said "Saint"
doused with beer going into the tunnel when he turned out to be another
Grogan...

I said C's fans Don. Whole different mentality from Pats fan although many
are the same....

mike

What position are these kickers going to play ILB ?  Free Safety ?

	Hey Tommy Brydie!  Did you happen to catch IRVING FRYAR's game 
winning touchdown reception yesterday afternoon?  Or maybe you saw the ESPN 
clip of FRYAR's devastating block on a Higgs (I think), touchdown last 
Sunday against the Eagles.  He remains the consumate professional, doing 
whatever it takes to put his team on the plus side of the scoreboard every 
Sunday.  Congratulations to IRVING and a Bronx cheer to the Patriots for 
letting such a team oriented player leave their midst.

				/Don

  Yeah, I saw Irving on Sunday. Big deal, he beat the Pats' secondary for
 a long bomb. He'll choke in a big game just like he always does. 

 BTW - Pats fans forget about Marshall Faulk. If you want to talk running
       back the best one in the country will be playing against FSU Saturday
       in the person of Eric Rhett from Florida. Even so, I wouldn't take
       either one of those two over JJ Stokes, receiever from UCLA, if he 
       forgoes his senior year.

	Do you really think they'll go after another "franchise" player?
	How many "boy he's going to be great in a couple years" rookies
	can one program endure.  I expect them to look to make drastic 
	improvements at the running back position.  However, it will 
	probably come from a "proven" veteran.

	Just my hunch.


	billl

	I petty the proven veteran getting traded to the pats, whomever 
 he may be!!

 Cadzilla2

	Could be worse.  He could be sent to Cincinati!


	billl

   >> I petty the proven veteran getting traded to the pats, whomever 
   >> he may be!!
    
       Anyone who has watched this team knows that it's a comer. It's 
      the second youngest team in the league, they've only been blown 
      out once and they have an excellent, young offensive line. I don't
      think it's any exagerration to say that we're two or three players
      from being a playoff team. And maybe even less players than that.

	How many times will we here that this team is a comer!! This franchise
has never had a winning tradition and would not how to develop one if their
life depended on it. Its been more of a tax writeoff for the owner than a good
team. They ran off the only coach they had that made it to the big show.  They've
let the good players they had get away because they were to cheap to pay them. 

     Parcells may be a good coach, but his record has been proven with some
great team players, and not what he has now.   

 Cadzilla2

�       in the person of Eric Rhett from Florida. Even so, I wouldn't take
�       either one of those two over JJ Stokes, receiever from UCLA, if he 
�       forgoes his senior year.

	Agreed, since receiver is the possibly the weakest position on the 
team.  We can only hope that Stokes is as productive and half the 
competitor that the guy the Patriots let the Dolphins steal was.
    
�     Anyone who has watched this team knows that it's a comer. It's 
�     the second youngest team in the league, they've only been blown 
�     out once and they have an excellent, young offensive line. I don't
�     think it's any exagerration to say that we're two or three players
�     from being a playoff team. And maybe even less players than that.

	How did that Who song go, "Won't get fooled again".  Watching these 
"close losses" brings back terrible "deja v�" images.  Last game of the 
1966 season, all the Pats needed to do was beat a less talented Jests team 
and they tie Buffalo for the AFL East crown.  The Jesters led by a young 
Namath and Emerson Boozer crush them.  Losing a playoff spot in 1980 due to 
a loss to the then, 5 win San Francisco 49ers.  The 1974 6-1 start followed 
by a 1-6 finish.  The seemingly dozens of losses late in the season in 
Miami to seal their "close but not quite" fate.  It goes on and on.  And we 
really don't want to discuss the one time they did come close to football's 
Holy Grail, do we?  If Parcells really wants to break this "almost" syndrome 
he could start by hiring better offensive and defensive coordinators.

	Parcells never had to do both the job of coach and general manager. 
He had a tremendous GM in New York, regardless of what the Midget fans and 
tabloid press would have you believe.  Now that he has the added 
responsibilites he needs to hire talented coordinators on both sides of 
the ball and then give them the freedom to operate.  Ray Perkins is living 
proof that ability is not a high priority item when selecting a coach.  
My guess is that his most marketable trait is the ability to plant his lips 
firmly on Parcells' ample posterior.  Bill needs to lighten up on the reins 
and get some new talent to help run the show, or it'll be the same old same 
old for the Patriots.

				/Don          

    re: .597
    
    /er did you confuse the Patriots with the Red Sox? hahahaha
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Well were use to seeing the pats lose and lose big.  In the past we
    couldnt even say what if we had a FG kicker who could hit a bldg from
    10 yrds out... Face it this pats team has lost 6 games by a combined
    17pts and in just those games Sisson missed 6FG (18pts).  So the 
    statement that there a few good players away is very credible.  If
    say Morten Anderson was playing in NE I feel pretty confident that
    they would be more like 6-4 or somewhere along those lines.  Sisson
    has cost this team alot.  Im not sure how to look at this team. With
    a great Kicker they could be a borderline Playoff team (Under the
    circumstance's theyve been in so far this season) but they would
    have a middle of the pack type draft pick.  Sisson and Sisson alone
    has been in position to tie or win 4 games and blew them.  And how
    many times did the pats punt instead of attempting a 50yrd FG ?????
    
    I hope Sisson comes around and finishes up the season strong, he seems
    to have a strong leg just no confidence.  Think about it, there coming
    ohh so close, if Sisson snaps out of it, they get the kicker they 
    thought they drafted :-), a low draft pick, plenty of money to spend
    in the Free Agent Market and a 5th round pick...  Next year will be fun
    in Foxboro :-) (I think I'll attend a few next year before they start
    selling out).
    
    								mab

    Good teams find a way to win, bad teams find a way to lose.
    
    JaKe
    

      AGreed,  look how Denver lost to Muffalo in the AFC champeenchip game
    2 years ago.  Had to depend on FG's, which 3 or so were missed.
    
      Tim

    The Pats sip, big time. Fryar is great, and they miss him. Who replaced
    him? Brisby? HAHAHAHAHAHA
    
    Yeah, they're up and coming...next year they'll win 2 games. Then
    Parcells will retire again, and they'll hire Lou Holtz.
    
    JoJ_NOT

    How often does a team have a runner rack up around 120 yards in a game
    and lose?
    
    According to yesterday's NBC broadcast duo, Parcells says his first
    priority in the draft is a running back.

>
>    How often does a team have a runner rack up around 120 yards in a game
>    and lose?
>    

I dunno.  

I think if the Pats didn't fumble, then you figure they might have won.


>    According to yesterday's NBC broadcast duo, Parcells says his first
>    priority in the draft is a running back.

Yep.  I don't doubt that.  Parcells doesn't have the kind of runner he
wants on the team....

'Saw

    Re: Marshall Faulk
    
    It definitely wouldn't hurt the Pats to take a look at LeRon ( or is it
    LeWon?) Johnson (Northern Illinois).  Afterall, he's only the 4th back 
    ever to rush for 2,000 yards in the NCAA.  I'm curious to see how he does 
    in the Senior Bowl against Division 1 talent.

    Is weatley still around, isnt he more of the Parcells type RB ?
    If they end up with the #1 pick, I hope they trade down a few
    and grab weatley and let faulk go else where...
    
    Garrison Hearst didnt cut it, but the power backs are doing ok
    this year...
    
    								mab
    

    At the risk of taking another beating about it, I still like Marshall 
    Faulk over the other running backs.  He adds another dimension with his 
    demonstrated ability to catch the ball out of SDSU's pro-style offense.  
    Yes, I happen to believe he's the real thing in the mold of the 
    Barry Sanders/Emmitt Smith-type back.  I did hear that ESPN geek Fred 
    Edelstein pushing Wheatley as Parcell's type of back and projecting 
    him as the Pats' selection, leaving Faulk to someone else (forget who) 
    in the top three picks, and I hope that doesn't come off.  For one 
    thing, for a supposed power back, Wheatley has been awfully injury 
    prone.  Faulk has been more durable.  To be honest, I still haven't 
    heard anything about the pro prospects of Tommy's guy Errict Rhett, 
    and he might be right up there in the scouts' opinions even though he 
    did take the big KOD hit in Saturday's game with FSU.
    
    Right now the Pats probably need the top-notch WR more than the RB but 
    I'm not sure there's a player available who can provide the same
    impact.  It seems that as far as projected NFL success goes, WR is a
    position where sleepers emerge from the draft more than at RB, and can
    be had with lower picks.  J.J. Stokes might be the guy but with a #1 
    or #2 pick you'd better be damned sure of the guy, because unless he 
    turns out to be truly great, the solid single player at WR just does 
    not deliver play-in, play-out contributions that a RB, defensive
    player, or even offensive lineman does.  Still, if he's the choice, 
    I'd rather roll the dice with Stokes as the impact offensive player 
    the Pats so desperately need than trade down (unlike with past
    adminstrations I think Parcells realizes this and has faith in his
    ability to draft talent in the middle rounds).
    
    glenn
    

 Don't worry Glenn, when was the last time Edlestein was right? Didn't the
 Patriots take Fryar #1? Could be gun shy on Stokes but given the relaxing
 of all the passing rules he should be the pick. Trouble is Parcells still
 thinks like the ancient ones and wants to run.....Also Parcells did it with
 a small back (Joe Morris) and a big back (OJ Anderson) so how can anyone
 say what type of back is his type...one thing for certain it's somebody
 who runs with their head up looking for more yardage instead of bowling
 through there like Russell....

 mike

� Don't worry Glenn, when was the last time Edlestein was right? Didn't the
� Patriots take Fryar #1? 
    
    Yeah and although Parcells would never admit it, he's probably kicking
    himself for trading him to Miami.
    
�one thing for certain it's somebody
� who runs with their head up looking for more yardage instead of bowling
� through there like Russell....
    
    Yeah that Russell, what a bum.  He was only able to rack up 120+ yards
    yesterday and is averaging close to 5 yards a carry.

>    
>    Yeah that Russell, what a bum.  He was only able to rack up 120+ yards
>    yesterday and is averaging close to 5 yards a carry.
>

Yeah, but if those 120 yards are all between the 30s, it don't do you
much good.

Besides, he's basically the ONLY back the Patriots have, at least the
only one I've seen.

The Giants, when Parcells was there, tended to have a couple of different
backs, all very capable.  I think he'd like a little bit of depth there....


'Saw

    Russell yesterday:  147 yards, 27 carries, 5.4 ave.
    
    Russell hasn't fumbled since the third game of the season, and has
    had some excellent games when Parcells & Co. have let him run the
    ball.  I'd love to see Marshall Faulk, but I'd prefer a big subhuman
    defensive end who could pressure the QB.
    
    With the Pats about $11 million under the proposed salary cap, I would
    think Parcells will go after an experienced safety and wide receiver,
    overpay for them both, and still have enough money to satisfy everyone
    he wants to keep on the current roster (Brown, Coates, Turner, Goad).
    
    NAZZ

�Yeah, but if those 120 yards are all between the 30s, it don't do you
�much good.
    
    Whose fault is that?
    
�Besides, he's basically the ONLY back the Patriots have, at least the
�only one I've seen.
    
    Of course, that's because you're busy watching the Giants on CBS. 
    The Pats are pretty deep at RB with Croom, Turner, et.al.  Heck, they
    cut/traded 2 RBs this season.  I will admit they don't have a
    Foster/Sanders type back, but only Pittsburgh and Buffalo do.  If they
    could get Faulk and move Russell to FB that would make for quite a
    backfield.

    It really is frustrating watching the Pats pile up the yards on the
    ground only to watch them get stuffed on 3rd or 4th and 1.  Why not
    call one of those plays that got you the 8 or 9 yards to get you to 3rd
    and 1?

>   The Pats are pretty deep at RB with Croom, Turner, et.al.  Heck, they
 
Yea, a coupla real studs there... 

>    It really is frustrating watching the Pats pile up the yards on the
>    ground only to watch them get stuffed on 3rd or 4th and 1.  Why not
>    call one of those plays that got you the 8 or 9 yards to get you to 3rd
>    and 1?

Situations are different perhaps.


One thing that Parcells really blew yesterday was going for it on 4th
down and putting the punt team in there.  I think he should have just
bellied up to the bar and gone with the offense.....


'Saw