Conference hbahba::cam_sports

    
    I thought I deserved the honor of the first note in here.
    
    BOSS

    Dread Tom says hi to all...

    Does anyone have a list of US players who are currently active with
    European or South American teams?
    
    NAZZ

>    Does anyone have a list of US players who are currently active with
>    European or South American teams?
    
Nazz,

You might want to ask this question in TRUCKS::FOOTBALL.  Of course,
you might suffer some slings and arrows because you're an American 8^)


'Saw

    So, 'Saw, how was the soccer match?
    
    Mac for Brews

Don't know if this was mentioned, but watch TSN in Canada a few weeks
back, they had World Cup Soccer qualifying info on.  I think it
was EL Salvador that beat Canada in El Salvador.  Fans have an
interesting 'tradition'.

They throw plastic bags full of urine at the opposing players, whenever
player gets near the end of field near stadium.  Saw a few Canucks
get hit by them.  Yuch.

JD

PS:  TSN is the equivalent of "Sports Center" on ESPN. Hilights, Scores,
etc...with Canadian Chris Berman wannabes.

JD

Well, we trekked down to da Yale Bowl to see the US National Team play
the Brazilians in the first game of the USA Cup.

It was almost like Carnival in Rio.  The Brazilian fans brought huge 
flags, drums, and maracas, and throughout the game there was this
incessant drumming and stuff.  It was neat.

The US played like shit.  Bora Multinovic's offensive scheme leaves quite
a bit to be desired.  He's only playing two forwards, five defenders, and
four midfielders.

There were consistently problems when the fowards would get the ball upfield.
Five Brazialian defenders were there, and they'd triple-team Roy Wegerle.
He'd try to dribble through these guys, and lose the ball.  Or else he'd look
to pass and the midfield wasn't up to support.

(Wegerle would make a great rugby winger -- he's more worried about his
hair style than anything else).


Offensively the US couldn't find a way to defeat the close marking of the
Brazilians.  Logic would dictate that crisp, one-touch passing (much as in
hockey) would defeat the Brazil strategy, but to a man the Americans kept
trying to dribble around and over and through.

The US defense was atrocious.  John Doyle, a tall defender from UCLA I 
believe was particularly bad, almost earing the nickname "Toast" because he
was burned so often.   

Very often, after defending a rush, the defenders would pass the ball to
sweeper Desmond Armstrong, who'd wait so long back there, every one was
covered and he'd have no one to pass to.  I guess Coach Boring made a rule
that Armstrong had to start every play.

The officiating sucked.  The first goal against the US was clearly and
egregiously offside, and the ref missed the call.   Late in the game, when
the score was 1-nil, Wegerle got mugged in the area, and the ref let it go.

Final was 2-nil Brazil.


I guess the most telling fact is that the best offensive chance the US had
all day was a misdirected header by a Brazilian defender that almost found
the Brazilian net.....


'SAw

Two forwards...at home..ugh...

I thought they were going to try to make this world cup somewhat exciting? 
It looks like I'll have to root for good play instead of the home towne team.

Go Cameroon....


 Metz

                         
    But the US was missing some of the guys who will start at forward, I 
    think, like Tab Ramos and some other guy whose name I can't remember.
    Not that this will make much difference in the results, but might 
    possibly in the approach to the game.  Hopefully all these best US
    players who are off playing in the European leagues will get some 
    serious time together before the real thing starts, which has not been
    the case in the past. 
    
    glenn
    

>    But the US was missing some of the guys who will start at forward, I 
>    think, like Tab Ramos and some other guy whose name I can't remember.
>    Not that this will make much difference in the results, but might 
>    possibly in the approach to the game.  Hopefully all these best US
>    players who are off playing in the European leagues will get some 
>    serious time together before the real thing starts, which has not been
>    the case in the past. 
    
Ramos was missing (this past weekend was the last weekend in the Spanish
league) and Tom Dooley was missing (last weekend in the Bundeslige).

They had two of their best out there - Wegerle (Coventry City) and
Harkes (Sheffield Wednesday).

Two seasons ago, Harkes was in the running for BCC Goal of the Year with
a booming 35-40 yard that tucked inside the upper corner.  He ALMOST made
one like that yesterday.  For my money, with the Brazilian defense
collapsing down, some of that long range shooting might have pulled them
forward a bit and opened things up.

I truly think it was coaching yesterday.  They were very Snuffy like,
in that they showed a marked failure to adapt and overcome what the
Brazilians were doing.....


Metz, this is the USA Cup, between Brazil, Germany, England and the US.
World Cup starts nexted year....


'Saw    

I realize that, but all this stuff is just tuneups for the World Cup.
I just hope the offensive strategy changes by '94 because it's they only
chance the game has to be shown widely in the U.S. and if it's boring it'll be
the death knell for a pro league here.

Metz

    
   >> the death knell for a pro league here.
    >
    >  Say it ain't so!
    
    I'd settle for some serious attention paid to the national team in
    international competition.  A self-supporting league is too much to
    hope for, I think.  It's cultural.  The kind of support and devotion 
    that club and city soccer teams have in countries all around the 
    world is part of their national consciousness and heritage, somewhat 
    akin to what baseball used to have in this country before everyone 
    decided that it was too boring to tolerate.  It's not to be duplicated. 
    Our society doesn't have time for that kind of nonsense, where a game
    doesn't conveniently fit into a two- or three-hour time slot with
    natural TV commercial breaks eating up half that time.
    
    glenn
    

Okay, Metz.  It sounded as if you were confused.  My apologies.

At any rate, I'm hoping that Coach Boring gets things a little more lively.


'Saw

    re .13
    
    Thank you Tommy, it's ggod to know that, in the middle of a hectic Q4,
    the BOSS can count on you to keep these jokers in line.
    
    BOSS
    

Well, a little bit of history was made last night in Foxboro.

For the first time in 43 years, and only the second time overall, the
USA beat England.  Last night's score was 2-nil.

Actually, last night's game was a lot of fun.  Not long after we parked
a bunch of England supporters pulled in behind us.  A very friendly bunch
of lads, they came over, shook our hands, introduced themselves, and
proceeded to hang out singing terrace songs:

	"West Ham, West Ham, sing us a song for West Ham"

	"Eng-a-lund, Eng-a-lund...."

and a bunch of others.

There were a lot of English supporters there, and they certainly are
a colorful bunch.  


Our seats turned out to be about 8 rows back from the pitch, near the
start of the penalty area.  We had an opportunity to see England defend
that end in the first half, and had a great view of the first goal.

USA had been awarded a corner kick, and Tab Ramos put it into the crease,
but it rebounded back out to him right on the goal line near the corner.
He lofted a nice cross that Tom Dooley headed down into the net.

The crowd went spastic.  I was impressed because the US was playing lots
better than they did against Brazil.

The US got a goal in the second half, when a substitute defender headed
in another corner.  (I think the guy's name was Lalo).

The real story of the game was Tony Meola, though.  England definitely
had better scoring chances throughout the game, but Meola stonewalled
them, with some unconscious goal-tending.

Other notables included the play of Nigel Clough, former Forest player
who's signed with Liverpool for next season.....

Wrap all of that around a few Bass Ales and the Chainsaw had a fine time....


'Saw

    
    So how long until England's coach gets canned?  Maybe he and Butch
    should go out on the town together...
    
    glenn
    

>    So how long until England's coach gets canned?  Maybe he and Butch
>    should go out on the town together...
    
I'm sure that all over Eng-a-lund right now they are calling for
Graham Taylor's sacking.

His strategies are a little suspect -- he only brought three strikers with
him and one seems perpetually injured.

I'm sure that the defeat at the hands of the Americans is going over
VERY badly.....

'Saw    

Wasn't the US win against England in 1950 in the World Cup? I seem to
recall that it is considered the biggest upset in World Cup history.

re:last nights game

Glad it was a good game, but it F**KING tie up traffic all over
the Boston area.

The Crazy Met

>Wasn't the US win against England in 1950 in the World Cup? I seem to
>recall that it is considered the biggest upset in World Cup history.

Yes, I think it was.  I'd have to ask DreadTom for specific details.


>re:last nights game
>
>Glad it was a good game, but it F**KING tie up traffic all over
>the Boston area.

Yeah, it took far longer to get out of Foxboro than normal too....


'Saw

�Glad it was a good game, but it F**KING tie up traffic all over
�the Boston area.
    
    I would think that Foxborough is far enough from Boston as to not
    effect the traffic there.  But then again, TCM probably thinks Maynard
    is in Boston.

128 was backed up all the way to the Burlington Mall, route 3 backed up
past the Bedford exit. 

Thats what I like about Mac he ignores facts unless they are in his favor.

The Crazy Met

    That was from Foxboro?  You're kidding, right?
    
    Walt (who had to get off 62 to get home lasted night...)
    

    Well all the traffic reporters were saying it was from the traffic
    going to Foxboro (WBZ, WODS, WBMX, and one other). So no I'm
    not kidding.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

I think they had about 30K fans at the game.  The traffic did seem
bad right around the stadium.

Also, the parking lot attendents must've been taking lessons from the
Gestapo.  We had to park where they said, and not where we wanted.
Well, what're ya gonna do????


'SAw

    
    Some nifty London tabloid headlines in the wake of the US' 2-0 victory
    over England Wednesday:
    
    
    "Taylor's Disgrace!  (Sops reach all-time low)"
    
    "Stars 'N Tripe!  (Nothing Can Save Taylor From Chop)"
    
    "Yanks 2 Planks 0  Taylor MUST Go!"
    
    "We Can't Get Any Lower!  America 2 England 0.  WANTED DEAD OR ALIVE:
     Graham Taylor, the Outlaw of English Football."
    
    
    glenn
    

Too funny.  I mean, for the English this defeat is ODIOUS.

And really, the English did not play a bad game.  YOu can question 
Taylor's strategy in substitutions.  After Ferdinand went out, he subbed
in a striker (Ian Wright -- whom staunch Liverpool supporters must
call Ian Wrong), but late in the game he should have subbed another
striker.

You can question his decision to only bring three strikers on tour.

And in typical English fashion, they're calling for him to be sacked,
yet no one has suggested a replacement.  Brian Clough?  I don't think so....


'Saw

               <<< Note 18.24 by METSNY::francus "Mets in '93" >>>


>128 was backed up all the way to the Burlington Mall, route 3 backed up
>past the Bedford exit. 
>
>Thats what I like about Mac he ignores facts unless they are in his favor.
    
    Fact is, neither 128 or that section of Rt 3 are in Boston.
    
    Mark.

re: .31

Well exccuuuuse meee for assuming that folks have some semblance of
intelligence and not explicitly stating the Boston area.

The Crazy Met

    If Burlington and Bedford are unaffected by a 60K+ sellout against
    Miami, what makes you think they will be affected by 30K soccer fans?
    
    Mark.

    	Hey Mark, what do you expect, they're soccer fains.  Now us Broons�
    fains know how to drive.  Figures the SoccerSissies would let those
    wimpy Foxboro parking lot attendants tell them where to go.  We just
    run the wannabees over if they get in our way.
    
    				/Don

    
    Have they paved any of the lots yet?  I also suspect that if the soccer
    fans refused to park their Volvos in an unpaved, crater-filled lot that
    could cause quite a back-up, too...
    
    glenn
    

    	Paved lots in Foxboro?  Good one Glenn!  The only "paved" lot is
    the one the team owns near the stadium.  Otherwise it's gravel, rock
    and crushed beer cans, just like God intended.
    
    				/Don

    
    >	Paved lots in Foxboro?  Good one Glenn!  The only "paved" lot is
    > the one the team owns near the stadium.  Otherwise it's gravel, rock
    > and crushed beer cans, just like God intended.
    
    I thought I'd heard that that great new K & K Corp. ownership, in
    partnership with the always community-minded James Busch Orthwein, 
    had made some stadium improvements.  Two or three new paved parking
    spots, at least...
    
    glenn
    

    Were there any pickup soccer games in the parking lot(s)?
    
    When I was in grammar school (just moved to burbs) soccer was fading as
    a Sport but was still played during recess.  I headed a ball in once
    and score was called back for illegal play.  This probably occurred
    about the same time as the first 4min. mile.
    
    Soccer finally got going again in 70s 

Those English soccer fans make /Don look like a prim and proper schoolboy
in knickers sipping tea.

They were some neat folks though.

We parked in the paved lot near the stadium, across the street from
where Don usually parks.  But I didn't have any control over that, as
we were meeting some folks and that's where they had been told to
meet us.


'Saw

            <<< SMAUG::USER$944:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DEC_SOCCER.NOTE;1 >>>
                           -< Digital Soccer League >-
================================================================================
Note 182.0          FREE TICKETS FOR SOCCER EVENT AT BRANDEIS            1 reply
ASABET::KNIPSTEIN                                    18 lines  10-AUG-1993 12:57
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    
    Corporate Public Relations was recently contacted by SOCCER BLAST USA
    about Digital Employees being offered free tickets to an event being
    held at Brandeis this coming Saturday, August 14th.  After talking with 
    the Employee Services and Recreation office, I was given the go ahead
    to accept them and handle distribution.
    
    SOCCER BLAST is overnighting me 100 tickets for the event, which I will
    describe in the first reply to this note.  Please send mail if you are
    interested in tickets.  I am located in the Mill (MLO3-4/T83) and will
    do what I can to get tickets out, but I will not be able to travel all
    over EMass dropping off tickets.
    
    If the response is overwhelming, the folks at SOCCER BLAST have
    indicated that additional tickets might be made available, but since
    the event is this Saturday, time is short.  If you want tickets, get
    your requests in as soon as possible.
    

    Hey Brews, do you want some tickets for USA vs. Norway in January?  

    The US-Ghana game has been cancelled for Foxboro...
    

    Does New England have an indoor team?

    I play on the Whitefish, so that's one...

    My oldest boy is a Viking.  He's also a Taekwondo green-belt (going for
    the blue on Friday).  I'm waiting for Brews to tell him he plays a wuss
    sport ;-)

    
    Mike,
    
    Was that the kid I saw riding a pink bike and wearing the Little
    Mermaid outfit when I saw you at the park that day?  Give me your home
    number and I'll call him tonight and let him know he plays a wuss
    sport.  8^)
    
    brews 

    Nope, my oldest boy's bike is red.  My youngest boy (4) is going to play
    this year too, for the first time.  You could probably get away with
    calling him a wuss.  He doesn't start Taekwondo for a few months ;-)

    Younzes don't give a hoot, but I gots to announce
    
    
    ROBBIE GOT HIS FIRSTED GOAL EVER SATURDAY!!!!
    
    He's seven, and is playing his 4th year of soccer.  He's not that
    aggressive, and has always wanted to just stay back on defense, but
    this year, his coach has been sorking on him to be better on offense.
    Saturday, he was as aggressive as I've ever seen him, and him and
    another kid broke off with the ball towards the other teams goal on a 2
    on 2, did some good passing, the other kid shot, the shot was blocked
    but Robbie was in perfect position fer the rebound and slammed it into
    the net.  The rest of the game, having had the "taste" fo scoring a
    goal he played like he was possessed, but didn't get any more goals. 
    I've never seen him so focused and into the game as I did after he
    scored Saturday.
                                                              
    
    JaKe
    

    That's great, Jake!  A little bit of success sure is a great confidence
    builder.

Jake,

That's excellent.  There is NOTHING (well *almost* nothing) like that
satisfaction of watching the ball cross the line, then die in the net.

Tell him after he does that to ALWAYS look the goalie square in the eye.
If you can intimidate him like that just after you've scored on him, it
might make him flinch the next time.....


Tell him "Congrats, no flies on you"......


'Saw

    
    Jake,
    
    Tell your son who plays the wussy sport congrats from me and /er.
    
    BOSS

    
    >>Tell your son who plays the wussy sport congrats from me and /er.
    
    Well, the week before a hokey game broke out at the soccer game.  These
    two "sorta short fer 7 yr olds" were at each other fer the whole first
    half, bumping each other, blocking each other out of plays, when
    finally this kid on my son's team grabs the other kids shirt and swings
    him around to the ground.  the other kid hops up off of the ground,
    runs over to the shirt grabber and plants his fist right into his
    mouth.  Blood flows, cut lip, kid upset, mother almost passes out, the
    whole shebang.  Well, partway into the second half, both of these kids
    fer some unknown reason end up on the field again at the same time, an
    now, this kid on my son's team is seeking revenge.  He paid no
    attention to the ball, just took to chasing the kid who hit him.  the
    other kid is hoofing it to get a way, but finally gets caught and takes
    a full fist to the middle of the back, then they started wrestling.  
    
    I was laughing so hard my sides hurt.
    
    JaKe
    

    Hope you took him out for a nice jar of cheez-whiz after the game...
    

    
>>   <<< Note 18.53 by ROYALT::ASHE "Center wanted: Inquire with Don Chaney" >>>

>>    Hope you took him out for a nice jar of cheez-whiz after the game...
    
    Nah, he ain't the one who prefers to have Cheez-Whiz on his weiner,
    that's Nathan(4).
    
    Speaking of Nathan, the local YMCA has an instructional league for 4
    and 5 year olds.  Nathan WANTED to play soccer, so we signed him up. 
    On the first day, all he could think of walking around the house was
    soccer.  Finally, we got him dressed in his shorts, shirt and soccer
    shoes, complete with shin guards.  Took him to the "Y", as soon as he
    saw there were 35 other kids, he turns around and states that he WILL
    NOT BE PLAYING SOCCER, now or ever.  He won't even pick up the ball
    now. 
    
    he does, however, like to play catch, and at 4 years old, he can put
    the ball in my glove consistently from about 25-30 feet.  he's a lefty
    and I'm sorta envisioning him as a 20 game winner in about 20 years,
    and making me and his mom sorta financially secure and .....dreams, eh,
    dreams.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    	Yabbut over across the pond, it seems that several hundred
    British fans were arrested after going on a rampage in da Netherlands
    when the British World Cup team was defeated.  It appears that this
    loss knocks the Brits out of contention for nexted year's
    champeenships.
    
    Where's TTom when ya need him?
    
    I remain,
    wonderin why those redcoats allus do soccer related riots?
    Kev
    

    Yup, scores of English fans were rounded up in Amsterdam the night
    before the match (couldn't they quietly tour the Redlight district?)
    and scores more hooligans rounded up in Rotterdam on the day of
    the match. But the Dutch hooligans got busted up also.
    
    Looks like England may not reach the US. The Republic of Ireland
    were dumped by Spain and must defeat the Northern Ireland team
    to qualify. Yikes!
    
    MikeL
    

    
    Mebbe if the game wasn't so boring the fans could look for action on
    the field rather than trying to make it themselves.
    
    BOSS

    
    
     And we get WC soccer in, what, 1994?
    
     
    LATEST LINE  (home team in CAPS)
    
     Hooligans vs GANGS    2�      
    
    

England are out, barring a miracle, so you won't have to worry about rampaging
hordes of malcontents.

Scotland are out, Northern Ireland are out. Wales can still qualify, the
Republic of Ireland probably will.

As for the game being boring: this comes from a nation whose national sport is
rounders? I rest my case. Watch the World Cup and learn.

Mike

    -1,
    Agreed Mike.
    
    My fellow American compatriots just don't see beauty even if it's
    paraded in front of them. Patience would go a long way in educating
    us colonials in the world's most supreme sport. 
    
    Unfortunately if there were more 6-5 games, maybe more Americans
     would get interested in the sport. But then again, 6-5 ain't true
    soccer.
    
    BTW, I thought English hooliganism was on the wane. Again, is this
    just a small bunch of idjits ruining England's rep agin??
    
    MikeL
    
    
    

I watched the 2-0 defeat of England by the USA up at Foxboro.  You couldn't
have asked for a more exciting game.

Tony Meola had to make some tough saves fairly late in the game till we put in
an insurance goal.

I find the 6-5 games boring to watch, because that usually indicates that
each team has solved the other's defense, and the goals all start to 
look alike...

Folks who find soccer boring don't know what to watch for.   Just like
a lot of folks who find baseball boring are not folks who appreciate
the pitcher-batter matchup.....


'Saw

�As for the game being boring: this comes from a nation whose national sport is
�rounders? 
    
    Rounders?  What's that?  I think you have us confused with someone
    else.

>    Rounders?  What's that?  I think you have us confused with someone
>    else.

Rounders :== baseball.....

    	As anybody who's been to a Patriots' game in Foxboro would concur,
    my money would be on the State Police against any country's hooligans,
    'specially if they're soccer fans...
    
    				/Don

> I have a feeling though with he explosion of
> youth soccer in this country, in twenty years the national feeling toward the
> game will change.


Haven't people been saying this for the last 20 years??

The Crazy Met

    Soccer is a great sport for girls or boys like Heiser's who wear pink My
    Little Pony outfits.  Hopefully when the boys get older they will be
    man enough to realize that they oughta be playing real football.  Heck,
    we even get some of these ferreners claiming that soccer should be
    called football just so they can pretend to be playing a manly sport and
    not a sissy sport.
    
    BOSS            

    Brews, my boy could kick your tail now, never mind waiting until they
    get older.  
    
    Anyone who burns their competitive fires playing volleyball (another
    sissy sport) with wymmin isn't one to talk.

    
   >  my boy could kick your tail now, never mind waiting until they    get
   >  older.
    
    what happened?  Is he done taking his karate lessons that he was forced
    to take 'cause all the other boys were laughing at him for being a
    soccer weenie?
    
    BOSS

    Why Brews?  Are the wymmin too competitive now?  Are you gonna volley
    with soccer boys now?
    
    Nobody laughed at him before he started Tae Kwon Do.  They were already
    skeert to begin with.

No matter what the youth explosion for soccer is it will never be a big TV
sport in this  country....

#1 The networks won't let it. There is no place to call a tv timeout and show 
	the Nth Bud brawl between the english bud hooligans and the american 
	bud light hooligans...

#2 TV already has it's fill of sports. Between Basebrawl, footbrawl and 
        sneakermerchandising ball there isn'r room for anything else.

#3 It isn't that exciting to watch...Heck..I've played the sport for 20 years  
       and I don't watch it much on TV. I'd rather play it and if I do watch it
       it's in the background while I'm doing something else. It rivals 
       baseball for small amounts of exciting action...

#4 No merchandise to sell. Unless wearing cleats to school becomes newveau 
	fashion there isn't much you can market except the jersey's.

#5 No tutus, no dramatic pairs competition, no controversial judging, no real 
	benefit of taking steroids, no genetic mutants, no team of fat    
	beerswilling guys to love, no astroturf and no organists.

#6 Too many guys gong down and holding their legs like they just stepped on a
	land mine...

#7 Brent Musberger wouldn't know what to say during the game...

Metz

   
    I put in for two tickets in the lottery for the quarterfinal game at
    Foxboro.  It's a very long shot and I'm not a huge soccer fan, but what 
    the hell.  A game of that magnitude is going to be played with some 
    intensity and will not be boring in person, and the atmosphere outside 
    the place alone will outdo anything that the Patriots have been able to
    create in 20+ years at the place.  Except maybe for the time Flutie
    beat Coach Dikka and Coach Dikka was so shocked he had a heart attack 
    (the Polish sausages contributed, though)...  ;-)
    
    glenn
    

Right, time to leap heroically to the defence of the world's favourite sport....

Football is a fringe sport only in the sense that it is played by every country
in the world, and that the World Cup is just that, rather than the domestic
competitions you call World series Baseball, Basketball, and American Football.

American Football is hardly a real man's sport, considering it is just rugby for
people with no talent that are too scared to play without pads. When the NFL
were first pushing their sport in the UK Dan Marino watched a rugby match and
admitted that it looked scary.

Rounders is a game identical to baseball that is played by 14 year old girls in
the UK.

Sorry and all that. I don't normally insult sport because I love it all, but if
you will go around calling the rest of the world names for playing football then
the rest of the world reserves the right to strike back. 8-)

"Have a nice day"

Mike

Oh, I meant to say something about football hooliganism...

Hooliganism in the domestic games has largely been dealt with because the
hooligans get taken to court and sorted out good and proper.

However, the international game tends to attract the fascist elements and they
just go to cause trouble. I heard some rather frightening reports that over 1000
people were eventually arrested in Holland but I hope it's not true.

Some politician was on t.v. last night saying that the hooligans were apparently
from quite well-paid jobs, so that's how they afford it. Rich people can be
thugs too.

That said, foreign police forces tend to make things look worse than they really
are by arresting massive numbers of people simply for looking like they might
cause trouble, i.e. being England fans. There were hooligans in Rotterdam, but
there certainly weren't 1000 of them. Of the arrests, only 6 fans were actually
tried in courts, so make of that what you will.

At least you won't have to worry about English thugs in 94 any more. However,
the German and Dutch fans have a reputation that is just as bad as ours
(domestically at least)...

Mike

>
>American Football is hardly a real man's sport, considering it is just rugby for
>people with no talent that are too scared to play without pads. When the NFL
>were first pushing their sport in the UK Dan Marino watched a rugby match and
>admitted that it looked scary.

I'll disagree with this here. 

I play rugby.  It's a tough, hard-nosed game, and there is an element of
danger involved.  There are tough collisions ( a guy I play with hit a
guy so hard the guy messed his pants).

But I've also talked to some ex-NFL players who play rugby now, and they
say that the hitting doesn't compare.

But you can't sell American Football short either.  The action is brutal,
the injuries sustained are most times more serious, and the toll that
a career takes on a player's body is worse than any rugger I've seen.
(cf. Jim Otto of the old AFL Oakland Raiders).


>Sorry and all that. I don't normally insult sport because I love it all, but if
>you will go around calling the rest of the world names for playing football then
>the rest of the world reserves the right to strike back. 8-)

Not all of us are so small-minded in their appreciation of the different
sports of the world....


>"Have a nice day"

Cheers,
'Saw

    Mike,
    
    I'll double what 'Saw states. American football is a tough sport and
    fun to watch. 
    I enjoy soccer very much, and while not trying to speak for others,
    I believe much of the anti-soccer feelings shown here are mostly
    "cojone-busting" if you catch my drift.
    
    MikeL
    

> I play rugby.  It's a tough, hard-nosed game, and there is an element of
> danger involved.  There are tough collisions ( a guy I play with hit a
> guy so hard the guy messed his pants).
> 
> But I've also talked to some ex-NFL players who play rugby now, and they
> say that the hitting doesn't compare.
    
    Of course it doesn't.  The helmet alone takes care of that.  But I
    appreciate Mike's points about the different sports.  Much of what we
    Americans consider to be "interesting" about a sport, especially in the
    case of American football, is rather contrived and has moved away from
    the simple basics of athletic competition like footwork, hand-eye 
    coordination (okay, you don't have this in soccer), balance, endurance,
    etc.  If you just take a step back and look at NFL football in comparison 
    to what it was even 20 or 30 years ago (the game I preferred), it is really 
    quite a spectacle to behold, and to an outsider that spectacle probably 
    ain't so pretty.  The NFL is increasingly specialized, technological, 
    high-speed and violent with its players more and more anonymous each
    year, and while we joke about efforts to sissify the game (which have 
    hardly worked) in the end on-field success in large part boils down to 
    the team that can keep half its players on the field without sustaining 
    serious injury...
    
    glenn
       

Good points Glenn.


I've always liked soccer since I played in school when I was little.  But
other sports have fascinated me for a long time -- things like hurling,
gaelic football, Aussie Rules Football, rugby.

When I was in France I used to catch some of the british sports shows,
and found a plethora of interesting sports we rarely see here.  Motorsports
coverage was excellent also.

'Saw

>, hand-eye coordination (okay, you don't have this in soccer), 
    
    I think you are underestimating the soccer players here, Glen.  
    they use the hand-eye coordination on date night.
    
    re FORTY2::MFOWLER:
    
    Those are the same lame excuses we constantly hear from soccer fans. 
    Nothing new there at all.  Soccer is played here by school girls, and
    when it is time (again) for the US to bail your butts out of the next
    war, you'll be glad we weren't wasting our time playing that sissy
    sport.
    
    BOSS 

All good points, and to be honest I actually quite like American Football too,
so I'll stop berating it for no good reason. You'll have to forgive me for
calling it that, but I can't get my head round the word "soccer".

I think a lot of English people find your Football confusing because there seems
to be such a lot of stuff going on that is peripheral to the actual mano a mano
athletic elements, and because there are so many confusing rules. (What on earth
is offensive pass interference?) Also, it takes too long, and there are far too
many breaks in the action (presumably ad breaks).

If I'm being realistic I wouldn't suggest for one second that the hits in rugby
are anything like as hard. In fact, some rugby (league) players in the UK now
wear shoulder pads, so there you go.

I get wound up when people of any nation deride football, so don't take it
personally. I must also admit that I am one of several who are a bit dubious
about having the World Cup in a country which cares little for the game, but
such is life in this big capitalist world I suppose.

Ta-ta,

Mike

re:.80

dear, oh dear. 

A chance meeting, one night of passion, and humanity gets a life sentence.

And I was beginning to think Americans were reasonable types after all. I hope
you're just trying to wind me up.

Mike

>All good points, and to be honest I actually quite like American Football too,
>so I'll stop berating it for no good reason. You'll have to forgive me for
>calling it that, but I can't get my head round the word "soccer".

Not a problem.  Lots of folks here berate soccer for no good reason. 8^)


>I think a lot of English people find your Football confusing because there seems
>to be such a lot of stuff going on that is peripheral to the actual mano a mano
>athletic elements, and because there are so many confusing rules. (What on earth
>is offensive pass interference?) Also, it takes too long, and there are far too
>many breaks in the action (presumably ad breaks).

Offensive Pass Interference:

	On a pass play, both the offensive receiver, and the defender have
	a right to the ball.   If the OFFENSIVE player interferes with the
	defenders attempt or right to the ball, that's offensive pass 
	interference.


There's usually a short break atfter every play, but I believe there is a
40 second clock to get the ball back in play.   There are some longer
breaks for commercials though.


>If I'm being realistic I wouldn't suggest for one second that the hits in rugby
>are anything like as hard. In fact, some rugby (league) players in the UK now
>wear shoulder pads, so there you go.

Yeah, I've noticed that.   I'm not a League fan.  I prefer Union. 


>I get wound up when people of any nation deride football, so don't take it
>personally. I must also admit that I am one of several who are a bit dubious
>about having the World Cup in a country which cares little for the game, but
>such is life in this big capitalist world I suppose.

But we can (and hopefully will) pull it off with class and dignity, and it
should be a great Cup.  


'Saw

> But I've also talked to some ex-NFL players who play rugby now, and they
> say that the hitting doesn't compare.
    
    Dress anyone up in 50 pounds of body armor, tell them there is no way
    they could possibly get hurt, and you could make them a monster hitter.

�Rounders is a game identical to baseball
    
    Identical?  I thought it was as identical to baseball as cricket is.

    
    
    While living in Europe for three years, I got the opportunity to see a
    lot of soccer football played. The difference between the way it's
    played here in the US and over in Europe is like night and day. It's
    very much akin to the difference between European/International
    basketball and the NBA. In the US, soccer is a non-contact sport. In
    Europe, particularly the UK, there's a lot of physical play. I grew to
    appreciate the sport, and will watch it when it's on one of the cable
    channels.
    
    One of the things I absolutely never had an appreciation for was the
    way many players "fake" fouls. Incidental contact anywhere near open
    field or the penalty box invariably leads to a player flopping over
    grabbing a body part and screaming at the refs for a call. The first
    time this happens during the world cup, most americans will switch
    channels out of embarrassment and never go back.
    
    One other thing that americans will have no sympathy for is the
    football "hooligan." The unfortunate thing about this is that it
    has its apologists who seem to believe that it's to be expected or
    that it's overstated. Nothing could be further from the truth. Anybody
    who watched the last World Cup and saw the behaviour of the English,
    Dutch, and German fans (not the Scots, Irish, Belgians, S. Americans,
    Italians, or Africans.) has to believe that this is unacceptable. The
    BBC and Sky News (a Euro CNN) showed the riots between the police and
    the "fans" nightly. Disgraceful. Countries who's fans riot ought not to
    be allowed into the WC or international competition. End of story.
    
    I'd like to see it catch on here. There does seem to be some very simple
    things that could be done to improve the game and make it more
    exciting, but I doubt if this will ever happen.  I recall that there
    was a fear that bringing the WC to the US would cause too many changes
    to the sport, but here's a few anyway...
    
    
    Some suggestions:
    
    	1. Have unlimited substitution. Why only one or two subs are
           allowed is beyond me. More people playing and substituting on
           the fly as in ice hockey might help.
    	2. There's no deterrent for continually, but "accidentally", kicking
           an opponent, as was the case in the last WC with Cameroon. Why
           not some sort of rule that says if you foul somebody so many
           times, you're gone. This is similar to the rules of B-Ball,
           where you only get so many fouls.
    	   Soccer does have "professional" fouls, but that's hardly enough.
    	3. If a player falls down and fake's a foul, there should be a
           penalty of some sort.
    
    Didn't mean to get carried away.....Just my .02 cents....
                       

    If I'm not mistaken there is a lot of soccer played in this country
    which to use baseball vernacular would be A semipro leagues.  This is
    made up of foreigners and former collegians.
    
    I've never seen info on the games themselves except scores posted now
    and then.  But these leagues have one thing going for them: they are
    not infected by the virus of tv money.
    
    I think big money is just about ruining baseball,football and
    basketball  and big money combined with ncaa style bureaucracy is
    ruining sports at college level.
    
    If semi-pro soccer expands and improves gradually there may be a small
    window where excellent entertainment and dollar value can be had from a
    sport like this along with a high skill level.  then of course big
    money from overbearing tv and its media "producers" will ruin it like
    it has the others.

re:-2

No-one's condoning hooliganism, merely stating that police forces always seem to
over-react and consequently it looks like there are more of the mindless
minority than there are.

    Some suggestions:
    
    	1. Have unlimited substitution. Why only one or two subs are
           allowed is beyond me. More people playing and substituting on
           the fly as in ice hockey might help.

Help in what way?

There is a big difference, or so it seems, between European football and your
American sports leagues in that your leagues are small and have built in parity
via the collegiate drafts. Football leagues tend to be very large and have no
built in parity at all. The English league for example has four fully
professional divisions comprising 92 clubs, and then has lots of
non-professional divisions below it.

Unlimited substitution would just shift things more in favour of the big clubs
that can afford big squads and ruin all the smaller ones that have to struggle
along with a playing staff of about 15, and in some cases even less than that. 

I think it would completely stifle the attacking nature of the game. Teams would
go one goal in front and immediately take off all the attackers and play defence
for the rest of the game.

I share your sense of complete embarrassment about players diving though. Expect
loads of it in the World Cup, especially from well known Oscar contenders like
german striker Jurgenn Klinnsman (or however you spell it.). Personally I think
they should be sent off instantly because ungentlemanly conduct is the worst
form of crime in my book. It's unlikely to happen though. 

Mike

    
    	Yabbut I don't like any game that doesn't let yer hands touch yer
    balls!
    
    ;^)
    
    I remain,
    da grabber!
    Kev
    

    re: 90
    
    From my view, teams in International play do not play to win, they play
    not to lose. Example: Republic Of Ireland advanced pretty far into the
    WC competition winning only one single game, a penalty shoot-out against
    Romania. Teams that are forced to win (Example RoI against NI in
    Belfast for their next game) are in a pretty unsavory position. Teams
    are not geared up to win.
    
    
    My point in suggesting more frequent substitution is to get players to
    play full out for the entire game. I'm not convinced that this happens
    now.
    
    I don't know how to raise the next point without potentially hurting
    somebody's feelings....
    
    The issue of hooliganism is a touchy subject, particularly in the UK. I
    saw the telecasts of the tragedy at Anfield, where several people were
    crushed by a last minute influx of people arriving at the gate just in
    time for the start of the match. The inititial reports from the police
    indicated that the crowds that arrived late had been drinking heavilly
    and were unruly. Several policemen interviewed indicated that they had
    been urinated on by "fans" standing on a wall above the crowd. 
    
    However, there was such a public outcry against the police for even
    intimating that the fans might have been in some way culpable, they
    were forced to recant.
    
    Now the fact that there was loss of life, tragic loss of life, obscured
    what I felt was one of the causes of this incident. While I'm not
    doubting that the age or structure of the stadium was also a cause for
    the deaths, it was the militant, drunken manner of the fans which was
    the critical cause for the tragedy.
    
    It's just this public view that this type of behaviour is OK, is
    acceptable that irks me. You'll never ever solve the issue of the
    Football hooligan until such time as the public calls it for what it is
    and clearly lays the blame for it at the feet of those who go to the
    matched for something other than sports entertainment....
    
     
    

    Soccer hooliginism reared its ugly head in the States last week in a
    High School game no less.  In a High School game in the Boston area,
    people in the stands stormed the field during a game and started
    swinging at players with whatever they could get their hands on.

    Ruggers shouldn't pick on sissies.

    Mike, why don't you fill us in on the details.

    Any word on the qualifying games in Europe??
    
    England-San Marino
    Poland-Holland
    Ireland-Northern Ireland
    
    
    Up the Republic!!
    
    MikeL
    

England    7:1  San Marino
Poland     1:3  Holland
N. Ireland 1:1  Rep of Ireland
Wales      1:2  Romania
Malta      0:2  Scotland

The Republic qualify for USA 94, England (and Northern Ireland, Scotland, and
Wales) miss out.

Life stinks.

Mike

>
>The Republic qualify for USA 94, England (and Northern Ireland, Scotland, and
>Wales) miss out.
>
>Life stinks.

I agree Mike.

I was looking forward to seeing the Scots and the English and the Welsh
all playing.

Now I guess I'll have to settle for just watching John "The Great Aldo"
Aldridge play for Ireland....8^)

'Saw

    
    Which is the one slot remaining to be decided (if I've counted right)?
    
    I'm assuming that the powers that be will rig the schedules to get
    Ireland in Foxborough for at least one qualifying game next summer.  
    At least that's what I told my Irish cousin (living in PA) to expect 
    as he'll probably be scheduling an unscheduled vacation around that 
    time... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    Argentina vs. some team down under I think... played late lasted night

>    Argentina vs. some team down under I think... played late lasted night


Yeah, it was billed as Madonna vs. Australia... 8^)

    Eire will be here!!
    
    Long live Charlton.. Question tho, how many legit Irish are on the
    Republic's team this year?
    Was hoping to see Wales, Scxotland and England qualify as well.
    Was looking forward to some real donnybrookes!!
    
    MikeL
    

    
    Nope, Argentina is on the list from the Globe.  The list is, in order
    of qualification:
    
    USA, Germany, Greece, Russia, Colombia, Bolivia, Brazil, Nigeria,
    Cameroon, Morocco, Norway, Sweden, Saudi Arabia, South Korea,
    Netherlands, Belgium, Romania, Switzerland, Italy, Bulgaria, Ireland,
    Spain, and Argentina.
    
    That's 23 countries, but for all I know the Glob just neglected to list
    one...
    
    
    glenn
     

Argentina beat Australia 1-0 so they take the last place.

Real Irishmen in the Ireland squad? Well, they all have grandparents (at least)
that are Irish so what do you mean by real Irish? Born in Ireland? If so then I
have no idea: I would guess about half of them. There are only a few really
dubious ones, but the Ireland manager is doing his best to entice English
players with Irish ancestors to declare themselves as Irish so that he can
strengthen his squad.

Mike

    Mike,
    
    I heard a couple of years back that the FAI had ground rules for
    "Irishness" for lack of another word.. I'll qualify it to mean,
    "born in Ireland" even though, many Irish are in England for
    employment, etc. I always got a kick out of the joke about
    the FAI (Find Another Irishman)...
    
    Let's see, my paternal great-grandparents were from Ireland and\
    onew maternal grandparent was from Scotland, so if I was a
    good footballer, would I be for Scotland or Ireland ( if there was
    no USA team!)??  I'll have to poll the FAI  8^)
    
    MikeL
    
     

From Atlanta's Most Infamous Welshman:




Frank,

The final 24 are:

1st seeds: USA, Germany, Argentina, Italy, Brazil, Belgium
2nd        Spain, Russia, cameroon, Eire, Romania, Mexico
3rd	   Colombia, Holland, Morocco, Bulgaria, South Korea, sweden
4th	   Bolivia, greece, Norway, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, Switzerland

Yes that is how they're seeded on past WC record.
Teams from South america or Asia can't be drawn in the same group as each 
other.

Draw Dec 19th 3pm EST on ESPN.

Regards,

Andrew.D.Wicks

    
    Aha... Mexico was omitted from the list.  Must be some post-NAFTA
    fallout.
    
    Thanks Frank/Andrew...
    
    

>    
>    Aha... Mexico was omitted from the list.  Must be some post-NAFTA
>    fallout.
>    


Yeah, you never know.....


8^)    
    

    Strictly a guess, but I'd bet Foxboro gets the following four teams:
    
    	Brazil
    	Ireland
    	Sweden
    	Nigeria
    
    NAZZ

    What do base your guess on NAZZ?
    
    I would think that there'd be quite a lobby to get Italy here.
    You remember how the town went nuts when the "Aruzzi" won the World
    Cup a few back
    
    
    MikeL
    

Who plays where will be determined on the draw in December....

'Saw

    Italy has already been promised to New York.
    
    Ireland has been promised to Boston (er, Foxboro), which means
    one of the top six have to come here.  Italy is accounted for, as is
    Germany and the US.  Which leaves us Belgium, Argentina, and Brazil.
    I think the second European country here will be Scandanavian, which
    would leave either Argentina or Brazil for Foxboro.  I'm guessing on
    Brazil.  The fourth team probably will be a 3rd world team, either
    Saudi Arabia or Nigeria - I just picked one.
    
    NAZZ

    
    
    Regarding the Republic Of Ireland's team:
    
    I have a program from the USA v Ireland game played April 29th 1992 in
    Dublin. USA lost 4-1.
    
    The program lists all the players and the teams they currently play
    for, but not their place of birth. It has some feature articles on some
    of their key players, though, which provides some information. 
    
    As far as I can figure out, the following players were actually born in
    Ireland:
    
    	Packie Bonner	Goaltender
    	Stephen Staunton
    	David O'Leary
    	Kevin Moran
    	Roy Keane
    	Niall Quinn
    
    All of the others were born in England (Aldridge, Cascarino,
    McGoldrick, Phelan, McGrath, McCarthy, Houghton) Scotland (Coyne,
    Houghton) or Wales (Sheedy).
    
    I'm reasonably sure this is correct. Some of those I'm not sure about
    (Peyton, Morris, Byrne, and Townsend) are probably English-born and
    have Irish parents or grandparents.
    
    I believe that the Globe indicated that only 2 of the Northern Ireland
    team were not born in Ulster.
    
    There are a number of US players who weren't born here, and one (Tom
    Dooley), who had never even visited the US until he was auditioned for
    the team. One player, Brian Quinn, is from Belfast and could have
    elected to play for either the US, Ireland, or Northern Ireland. Figure
    that out.....
    
    
    
    
    
    

    Ialso thought that two ROI members were born in Northen Ireland.
    
    MikeL
    

The rules are that you have to have at least one grandparent (or parent or you
yourself) born in the country for which you want to play. So MikeL would be able
to play for Scotland but not Ireland. There are other ways, of course, which
involve taking nationality or living somewhere for several years. The England
cricket team often includes people born in South Africa, Zimbabwe, and the West
Indies. We are not fussy over here, just desperate.

I don't think that seeding in a previous note is official beyond the first six
teams, because I don't think FIFA ever seed beyond the top 6. The top 6, I
think, get allocated but the rest is a random draw. England traditionally get
seeded so that they can be allocated to somewhere where the fans can't cause
trouble. Obviously this is not a problem you will have to deal with. This does
mean that if Ireland aren't seeded they can't (theoretically) be guaranteed to
any specific place, but I'm sure FIFA will arrange something on the sly.

When Jack Charlton took over as Ireland manager, he immediately started
researching the backgrounds of English players to see which would qualify for
the ROI team.

Mike

    I don't think they actually seed 1-24 but from what I read concerning
    possible locations for various teams they do seed by tier.  The
    speculation was that Ireland a second tier team would determine the
    location of their group's early games, not the first tier team in
    that bracket.
    
    Jimbo

    
    Hey, did anyone out there put an order in for World Cup tickets? 
    What's the date that they hold the lotteries, send announcements, etc?  
    Looking at the draw I'm glad I didn't for the preliminaries at Foxboro, 
    but I did put in for the quarterfinal game.  I figure that's a 10-to-1
    shot at best, but it'd be nice to know.  Considering their weak division 
    Argentina looks like a lock to be one of the teams for that game...
    
    glenn
     

    	Is it true that Barry Manilow was at the World Cup drawings
    yesterday?  That in itself tells you all you need to know about the
    sport!
    
    				/Don

    Yea Barry Manilow... James Brown kickin' off..
    anyone see Neil Sedaka?
    
    8^)
    MikeL
    

    I still can't believe they actually televised the draw.

>    I still can't believe they actually televised the draw.

The World Cup draw is probably one of the biggest sporting events
for folks outside the US.  It ranks up there with the Olympics or
the Super Bowl.

Millions and millions of people have an interest, and from what I
understand it's quite the spectacle.....

    US got stuck in a tough group Group A).  The change in rules that awards
    three points for a win instead of 2 could hurt the US chances to advance.
    The first game against a strong Swiss team could be a must win
    situation for the US.  They will be heavy underdogs vs Columbia,
    and slight underdogs to the Swiss and Romania.  Four points is enough
    to advance to the second round.
    
    Group E, with Italy, Mexico, Norway, and Ireland is the toughest
    group.  Mexico is a legitimate contender to reach the semi-finals.
    Norway weon its qualifying group.  Ireland will be hard-pressed to
    advance.
    
    It appears the Netherlands and Belgium are a cinch to advance in Group
    F (the weakest group), and Argentina has little competition in Group D.
    Three teams could advance from Group C (Germany, Spain, and Bolivia),
    and two of the three behind Brazil (Cameroon, Russia, and Sweden)
    should advance in Group B.
    
    Ninj arranged it so he'll be working the Argentina - Greece game and
    I got stuck with Bolivia - South Korea!  ;-(
    
    NAZZ
    

>    
>    Group E, with Italy, Mexico, Norway, and Ireland is the toughest
>    group.  Mexico is a legitimate contender to reach the semi-finals.
>    Norway weon its qualifying group.  Ireland will be hard-pressed to
>    advance.
>    

Group E, The Group of Death it's being called.

    
>    Ninj arranged it so he'll be working the Argentina - Greece game and
>    I got stuck with Bolivia - South Korea!  ;-(
    
Nazz, you'll probably see the better of the two games. The Argies play 
one hellaciously boring brand of soccer.....    

    I watched some of the draw and thought it was a blast. Robin Williams
    was in rare form yesterday...
    
    REK
    
    PS Early reports that over 500 million people watched/heard the draw
    yesterday. The World Series and the Super bowl could do so good...

�Nazz, you'll probably see the better of the two games. The Argies play 
�one hellaciously boring brand of soccer.....    
    
    Who doesn't?

    Guys - I think you're suffering from a little tunnel vision. If you
    were brought up here in Europe you'd at least have an understanding
    instead of a self important, pompous self centered opinionated guess
    about things 'All European & Worthless'.
    					    flame off....

    -1,
    You signed off "flame off".. exactly the type of response me
    fellow SPROTSTERS wished to elicit with their bombast.
    Possessing a twinkle in their eyes, they aim to reel ya in ( akin
    to deep sea fishin' me bucko).
    
    As they say in the "Wizard Of OZ",  "Pay no attention to that man
    behind the curtain."  They are willfully malicious.
    
    As a youth soccer coach, I say, "SOCCER ROOOLZ"
    
    GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!
    
    MikeL
    

    
    
        Don't get upset oh European Comrade. You just got to realize that
    we are not like the rest of the world. Soccer might be the #1 sport in
    the rest of the world but it never will catch on here. There are to
    many other sports that are more exciting (less boring). 
    
    
    By the way how does that Metric system work again????? 
    
    
    Chap

Well, I enjoy it.

If you've never gone to a game that features Brazil, then you've missed
something.   Sitting in the stands for that was quite an experience, and
probably the closest I'll ever get to "Carnival" down in Rio.


And the English fans made it a real scream up in Foxboro last summer
when they came in singing their songs and partying it up -- real style,
I have to admit.

They were a little quieter when the USA spanked them 2-0, but then they
started getting on their team, it was great again.


Anyone who knows the slightest thing about soccer would know that
Argentina plays a very boring, very defensive game designed for not
losing, whereas Brazil is always sniping at the net.   The Germans
play a damn good game too.....


'Saw

    
    	Yeah!  Let's string up Leary!  
    
    Claybone

> Yeah!  Let's string up Leary!

Yabbut, we got much better reasons for doing that than his prediliction (sp?)
for soccer.

The Crazy Met

	Do to the boring/defensive style of play that most teams play. They
changed the point system in the world cup. You now get 3 points for a win
and 1 for a tie. Teams have 6 months before the World Cup, maybe some of
the teams will open up there game a little bit.

Ron

    Dullards!!
    
    Have you know appreciation for the grace, intelligence, and strategem
    involved in world class football?
    
    Go see a soccer game *in person* this spring, be it at the youth/
    high school level whatever. Watch the sheer tapestry of beauty
    as the strategies unfold. (Er, don't watch yung'uns, 8 or younger,
    or you'll see that international strategy;the herd mentality).
    
    String me up indeed...well what did I expect from such neanderthal
    thinking...Galileo was persecuted in his day as well..sigh..
    
    MikeL
    

>    
>    Have you know appreciation for the grace, intelligence, and strategem
>    involved in world class football?
>    

Nah.  They have no appreciation whatsoever.

Mike, you forget that they're part of the Gotta Have It Now Generation,
weened on the glass teat that provides instant gratification.  If someone
isn't getting crunch every second or two, the tiny attention spans start
to scream inside their brains -- "Gotta have something, gotta have something,
gotta have something NOW NOW NOW".


Mike, the beauty and finesse of a play developing would be lost on them
anyway......


Cretins, Mike, that's what they are......

    
    	"Shear tapestry"?  Sounds like a Dick Buttons description of
    	soccer.  There you have it!
    
    	String up Leary for sissifyin' our youth!
    
    Claybone

Yabbut Tommy I thought basbeall players didn't have to be athletes?

re: Leary and the English language: what do you expect from an ND grad?? :-)

The Crazy Met

    Bronko Segota, Tatu and Steve Zungul ROOL!!!

    
    
    I'll get the rope.
    
    
          Oooo a corner kick! Wait a minute honey I'll be right in I can't
    miss this. Oooo the goalie caught it, I think I'll watch the whole game
    now!
    
    
    
    
    Chappy

    
    Cheeses, all this activity before I got in.  Is the shear tapestry in
    soccer anything like when my dog starts ripping up the drapes?  I know
    there is more action watching the dog.
    
    BOSS

    So I got ticketed by the know/no police.
    
    The art of soccer is lost on these BartSimpsons. Stand still as the
    world passes y'all by. 
    
    I challenge you, watch one game in person. Methinks y'all are afraid
    you might get educated.
    
    MikeL
    

>    
>    The art of soccer is lost on these BartSimpsons. Stand still as the
>    world passes y'all by. 
>    

And it's their loss.

I used to have the same bigoted, prejudicial ideas about opera, and when
I gave it a listen, (and grabbed a libretto so I could know what was
going on) I found it to be quite a satisfying art form.


As the Russians would say : nekulturny!


'Saw
    

    
    Sheer/sheer police.
    
    As me note said "sheer" meaning pure, undiluted... as in world class
    football 
    
    "shear" as in to cut you big dummies!
    
    Thanks BOSS for the sly dig at those KnowNothings
    
    MikeL
    
    

    Yeah, soccer can be boring to watch if you don't know the game, the 
    players, etc., but the reason that it is so popular worldwide is that 
    like basketball and baseball, two other sports whose popularity 
    extend beyond US borders, it is a game that spirit willing anyone
    almost anywhere in the world can play well into middle age.  It's not, 
    as Bob Ryan says, because the rest of the world's tastes are just plain 
    wrong.  No matter how corrupt and perverted the World Cup tournament may 
    have become, soccer's roots lie not in elitism but in poverty.  Now, 
    'Merican football may indeed be more manly and macho but this sentiment 
    is in almost all cases expressed out of pure couch-potato vicariousness, 
    completely free from the risk that after getting pumped up on the big 
    boys on the tube over the weekend that the next amateur club game could 
    be your last.  The world loves soccer because it can and does play soccer...
    
    glenn
    

    
    
    >> (and grabbed a libretto so I could know what was
    >> going on) I found it to be quite a satisfying art form.
    
    
        In my best Cliff Claven:
    
      "Libretto? Is that, uhh, something attached to ya filberts to
    help ya hit the high notes?"
    
    

    >    The art of soccer is lost on these BartSimpsons. Stand still as
    >    the world passes y'all by. 
    
    >    And it's their loss.
    
    
    That's what they said when the Bay City Rollers didn't catch on too. 
    Of course all the soccer fans broke out their Monkees 8 tracks when
    they left, so you can go on living in the past with the your friends 
    in the OLD world.
    
    BOSS

>    What a load of elitist crap! Anyone who doesn't like soccer is obviously
>    deficient somehow. "Oh, you obviously lack the mental capability to grasp

But that's what you've been spewing out too.  You're as far to one side
on this one as I am on the other.   I'm just trying to prove that 
point.

Because you don't like the game is no reason to attack it.  I don't like
basketball, but I'm not in here saying how much the game sucks because
it's just a bunch of tall freaks breaking backboards and such.  I don't
care for it that much, but if other folks enjoy it, I'm not pissing and
moaning at them how bad it is or how stupid it is.   And as for a sissy
sport, nothing I've seen looks worse than some tall skinny freak
having a sissy slap fight like they do in hoops....


I don't care if you don't like soccer or not.  I do.  There are things
in the game that I find satisfying.  Sure, there are times when I wish
that some of these teams would get their asses in gear and push the
limit a bit, but I've seen a lot of soccer and seen some memorable
players and memorable games.

And it's too bad Tom Hill or Andrew aren't in here, because we had a 
helluva time at the Brazil-USA game -- that was an experience.....


'Saw

>     How many middle-aged baseball and/or basketball fans actually still play?
>     5%? 10%? 15% tops? And you can certainly play touch football well into
>     your 30s 40s and beyond.
    
    Lots play basketball, less play baseball (I've messed around with it,
    and there are many leagues out there to provide the opportunity), but 
    a large percentage play the related (but inferior) game of softball.  
    The point is, though, that regardless of age worldwide popularity comes 
    with the opportunity to play.  It's just not there for American football
    with all its equipment and technical requirements.  That's not a
    judgment, it's a fact.  It's not a fact, as Bob Ryan suggests, that 
    foreigners are just somehow too blind or pigheaded to "get it".
    
    But touch football, that's a different story.  Now there's a manly,
    rugged game to pass on to the world.  Barefoot beach rules or 
    non-barefoot rules?
    
  >> No matter how corrupt and perverted the World Cup tournament may 
  >> have become, soccer's roots lie not in elitism but in poverty.  
   >
   >  What does that have to do with anything other than that it sounds nice?
    
    You were stressing the elitism present in the views of those who 
    voiced support for soccer, no?  Now you have to account for the 
    other 99.9% of the world...
    
    glenn
    

    How can anyone call Soccer a sissy sport? Just look at the fans who
    attend the games.... Are you going to call them sissys?
    
    
    REK

|  >>  You were stressing the elitism present in the views of those who 
|  >> voiced support for soccer, no?  
|
|     No. I was stressing the elitism present in Saw's statement.


And I was just making the point that there are all kinds of elitists.




There's a lot of opportunity to play soccer around, and I've seen lots
of leagues (albeit heavily ethnic) with older guys playing.  

Soccer, like baseball, is one of the few sports where size does not matter.  
You don't have to be a gawky freak at 6'11", or a strapping 300 pounder
to play.   That in itself makes it worthwhile for teaching kids about
athletics and sportsmanship.

'Saw
    

>     What's a better reason? I make no apologies. 

Well, whatever floats your boat.  I guess all those groups out there
that hate the Jews, and the Blacks, and the Asians use pretty much the
same theory -- I don't like it, it will spoil my culture, therefore it
sucks and should be attacked and not tolerated....   (Gee, does that 
sound elitist?)

Okay, as long as I know where you're coming from.


>     The games that we play say something about us and if we embrace soccer
>     that says that we're followers not leaders. 

Uh, with the exception of baseball (perhaps) and basketball (definitely)
most of the games that we play originated elsewhere.

>That we're imitators not creators. The arrival of soccer in this country as 
> a major sport will
> signal the beginning of the end of the total uniqueness American pop cul-
> ture.

We're not uniquely creators nor are we uniquely imitators.  The most
precious documents that started this country are imitations of others.
Granted, the concept was lifted and improved, but the seeds of our
Constitution can be found in many other documents that go way back.

By your logic, skiing and hockey shouldn't be tolerated either, since
neither were invented here, and might, no, probably HAVE infected 
the purity of American Pop Culture...   Whoa nelly, better call ESPN
and tell them.......


'Saw

And Tommy would have voted against establishment of the UN, NATO, the World
Bank, IMF, NAFTA, GATT and a bunch of other stuff. 

The Crazy Met

	Soccer's roots in poverty?  Maybe in the rest of the world, but 
certainly not in this country.  I challenge you to go to any poor 
neighborhood in the USA and find a soccer game.  In this country soccer is 
played and watched by the middle class on up which may explain the "looking 
down their nose" attitude at those who don't like it.  I won't touch on the 
"racial rathole" aspects of soccer in this country, but it's there.

				/Don

�If you've never gone to a game that features Brazil, then you've missed
�something.   Sitting in the stands for that was quite an experience, and
�probably the closest I'll ever get to "Carnival" down in Rio.
�
�
�And the English fans made it a real scream up in Foxboro last summer
�when they came in singing their songs and partying it up -- real style,
�I have to admit.
    
    So, you're going to the soccer matches not for the actions on the
    field, but for the actions in the stands.

Dang, I just can't help myself anymore.

re:.159, True, and if you adopt football the rest of the world will also lose
something that separates you from us. 8-)

Please feel free to stick to Baseball and Basketball, if the World Cup draw was
an example of what you are going to do to the world's favourite sport.

The reason you don't like football is that unlike American sports, such as
Baseball, Basketball, and American Football, it is more than just a cynical
marketing ploy to sell fashion accessories.

True, there are people in England that don't like football, but if it wasn't for
them, we fans wouldn't realise how lucky we are. 8-)

As for turning your young into sissys; oooh, you're so hard you scare me. I bet
people in the street tremble as you pass by. So very sad.

Mike

�Nah.  They have no appreciation whatsoever.
�
�Mike, you forget that they're part of the Gotta Have It Now Generation,
�weened on the glass teat that provides instant gratification.  
    
    I guess William Webb Ellis was a man way ahead of his time.

>     That's just plain stupid and irresponsible to be using that kind of
>     language because I find it deeply insulting. If you want to pretend 
>     to be some kind of renaissance man who can appreciate soccer because 
>     you have a superior attention span and can appreciate the subtle nuance 
>     of the game thne go ahead but don't try and label me as some kind of 
>     fascist because I hate the game.

Then point out to me where your logic is any different.  It follows the
same patterns exactly:

	1. I don't like it
	2. It will despoil my culture
	3. Let's get rid of it, or keep it separate.




I'm not pretending to be some elitist who likes soccer.  On that score
I was goofing around.   I like soccer.  You don't.  That's fine with me.
But you're the one making the big stink about it spoiling the culture and
all that stuff.

|  >> Uh, with the exception of baseball (perhaps) and basketball (definitely)
|  >> most of the games that we play originated elsewhere.
|
|     Well, basketball was invented by a Canadian but that's not hardly the 
|     point. It's an ingrained part of our culture as is baseball and foot-
|     ball. I don't really give a damn where hoscotch or mumblety-peg was 
|     invented.

Well, fact is it was supposedly invented here.  


|  >> The most precious documents that started this country are imitations of 
|  >> others. Granted, the concept was lifted and improved, but the seeds of 
|  >> our Constitution can be found in many other documents that go way back.
|
|     What the *hell* does this have to do with anything? Try and stick to the
|     subject and not go off on tangents with that purple prose of yours.

Well, it has a lot to do with American culture, and isn't that the heart
of your argument?

 

>     Why? Is there a massive effort to sell skiing and soccer to the American
>     public as "the world's game"? Hockey has already pretty much accepted the
>     fact that it won't be but so popular in the States. Soccer, on the other 
>     hand, is looking at the States as some vast untapped market and you 
>     chuckleheads are leading them through the front door.

Hockey is pretty damned popular.  I see more and more kids lacing up the
skates and putting on the pads every year in the school systems.

And so what if we are a vast untapped market?  If you're really worried about
that, then why not worry about something more important, like foreign
competition in important markets?


'Saw
     

>    
>    So, you're going to the soccer matches not for the actions on the
>    field, but for the actions in the stands.
>

Show me where I said that?

I enjoy what goes on in the stands just as much as I enjoyed the game,
most especially the England-USA game.

Just like I enjoy a summer day in the bleachers at Fenway -- there's
always going to be something happening there, even if it's just a guy
being obnoxious to someone in the bullpen.....

>    
>    I guess William Webb Ellis was a man way ahead of his time.
>

Nah, Ellis just didn't play very well, and got frustrated....8^)

> The reason you don't like football is that unlike American sports, such as
                            ^^^^^^^^^
                            soccer - lets get the name right.

> Baseball, Basketball, and American Football, it is more than just a cynical
> marketing ploy to sell fashion accessories.

ho ho ho, ha ha ha. The marketing that FIFA, etc. will try to do with the
World Cup in the US will put any other overhyped marketing campaign this year
to shame. 

The Crazy Met

�Show me where I said that?
    
    I thought I did when I quoted you word for word.  Everything you said
    about what a great sport soccer was centered around the stands.  Not a
    thing was said about what was going on on the field of play.

>    
>    I thought I did when I quoted you word for word.  Everything you said
>    about what a great sport soccer was centered around the stands.  Not a
>    thing was said about what was going on on the field of play.
>

Yeah, I was talking about the atmosphere, true, but you can't infer as much
from that as you were.

The Brazil game was a good game despite the fact that the US played
like shit and lost.  

The US-England game was classic, and the acrobatic saves by Tony Meola
to keep the game at 1-nil under pressure from the English attack were
far more interesting that watching some geeky tall freak hang on the
rim and break a backboard.....

    
    
      It's a great sport.
    
      The World Cup is a wonderful oppurtunity to showcase our
    country, and we should take every oppurtunity we can
    to make the World Cup succesful.
    
     Pass the Br�e please.
    
    
     
    
    

>>> Just like I enjoy a summer day in the bleachers at Fenway -- there's
>>> always going to be something happening there, even if it's just a guy
>>> being obnoxious to someone in the bullpen.....
>    
>    Hard to argue with someone whose idea of a fun sporting event is 
>    some guy being obnoxious to someone in the bull pen.
>

CHEESES (to quote Brews), read my lips. 8^0

It's all part and parcel of the experience, the gestalt.  I've seen some
funny things happen out there in the bleachers, things that aren't necessarily
part of the game, but have caused me to chuckle nonetheless....

Actually, my idea of fun is driving toothpicks into my belly button, 
just to see how far in I can get them to go.....

                                 
> Soccer's roots in poverty?  Maybe in the rest of the world, but 
> certainly not in this country.  I challenge you to go to any poor 
> neighborhood in the USA and find a soccer game.
    
    That'd be very easy.  Try most any ethnic neighborhood.  There are 
    plenty of poor ones. 
    
> In this country soccer is 
> played and watched by the middle class on up which may explain the "looking 
> down their nose" attitude at those who don't like it.  I won't touch on the 
> "racial rathole" aspects of soccer in this country, but it's there.
    
    What?  In this country soccer is played and watched by anyone who 
    enjoys the game, and that comes as with anything else with exposure.
    I seriously have no idea what you mean by these "racial rathole" 
    aspects because this being a country with a very diverse cultural 
    makeup, no single game enjoys a more diverse cultural following.  If
    we're talking about some small cross-section of upscale New England, I
    would suggest that this not a representative sample of all those who 
    enjoy soccer in this country. 
    
    I don't see how it follows that in a comparison of a sport that costs 
    almost nothing to organize (soccer) and consequently has very high 
    participation rates at the youth levels, versus a sport that is very 
    expensive (football), that soccer is the game that excludes people.  
    It's one thing to hold the opinion that the game is boring but this 
    threat to America's culture stuff is really pretty absurd.  Soccer is 
    no more a threat to America than the immigrants who brought it and any
    other cultural influences here...
    
    glenn
    

>   must be stopped." I'm not advocating anything on the scale of killing these
>   soccer weenies when they show up here. So chill the hell out.


I didn't say you did.  If you can point out to me where I said you were
advocating killing soccer weenies, I'll gladly retract it.

Till then, get off your high horse, and listen to what I was saying and
don't make assumptions and embellish it to make it something it isn't.

I was saying that your attitude towards soccer fit the classic logic
of people who hate other people.   I don't care if you don't like
soccer, really, because in the entire scheme of things it don't really
amount to a hill of beans.   I was just pointing out what your attitude
looked like to me.


Personally, I wasn't really in favor of us getting the World Cup, mainly
because of concerns I had about us doing a good job.  And it's important
to me (ie something I feel) that we do a good job since the entire world
will be watching.

Now we have it, and I hope we, America, can do a really good job putting
it on, and covering it on television.   

And if I get a chance to go to one of the games I will.  Worldwide, it's
the equivalent of say, a Super Bowl, so it'd be nice to be able to go and
experience that.....


'Saw

    

 
   You want boring (said only partially tongue-in-cheek)?

   How about a sport which strongly favors 250-lb-ers and excludes 95%
   of the population because of body shape/size? 

   We are lucky if there is real play action for 8-10 minutes; the rest of
   the time is spent conferring with each other, patting each other,
   changing personnel (one couldn't possibly play the entire 10 minutes),
   lining up for a 10-second play, getting up after the 10-second play, etc.

   This same sport, by the way, calls on a kicker to plunk a ball through
   the uprights every so often from as far as the others could advance the
   ball, thereby bailing them out and earning the "team" 3 points.

   OR

   How about a sport which favors 6'-11"-ers and excludes 95% of the
   population because of body shape/size?

   These athletes stand uncontested and motionless at a line and shoot
   at a basket approximately 40 times a game.  They do this much more at
   the end of the games, and spend a lot longer conferring with each other 
   and their coach during the last two minutes of the game (which can take
   up to 20 minutes to play, by the way).

   OR

   How about........no, I can't do it.....baseball is too easy.

   Contrast these to a 90-minute, no-timeouts, both-ways, only-three-
   subs-allowed, a-goal-really-means-something sport...

   Clark

   On a more serious note, it is not the ACTION that counts, it is
   what it means to YOU.  Picture yourself as the lone person in the stands
   at the next Superbowl, the next Final Four, the next World Series, watching
   one of the best plays you have ever witnessed, but no one else there to
   cheer or "high-five".  The fans and the passion around you are the essence
   of sports, and folks, there is no more world-wide passion than you will see
   next June and July.

   Enjoy it.

   Clark

    re: .181
    
    Tommy there's a snowball's chance in hell of soccer pre-empting any of
    our American SPORTS.
    
    Stand tall to these bullies, cause you're right: Soccer is *incredibly*
    dull.  And as to Leary's dumb remark that all ya gotta do is watch a
    game, well, bull.  My alma mater had no football so soccer was our big
    fall SPORT.  We had some outstanding teams, and I steal thought
    watching a chess match would've been only marginally less exciting.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    -1,
    That's because you is basically uneducated about the game Iggy.
    Pay attention you may learn something. Since soccer is not an
    ingrained "American" sport, you have to go beyond the visceral
    and *think*. Maybe if you expanded yo' horizons and glanced at
    yo' adopted alma mater, you would see a tradition of soccer
    achievement that make Dean pale. But of course, it may require
    you to think and strategize beyond Dean's probiscus so I might
    be asking too much.  Look up at Charlottsville and you'll see
    "excellence" as well.
    
    And Craze, "soccer" was known world-wide as "football" long
    before we christened our amended rugby as "football".
    
    And lemme tellya. My favorite sports are steel college football,
    hockey, and baseball in that order. And I enjoy the game of
    soccer immensely and don't feel culturally threatened. How silly.
    
    MikeL
    

�Personally, I wasn't really in favor of us getting the World Cup, mainly
�because of concerns I had about us doing a good job.  
    
    The LA Olympics should have put any of those fears to rest.  The US
    will do a fantastic job of what those who put the World Cup on want --
    exposure and money.

Tommy and ACCCrisp on the same side? what next??

re: 'Saw a few back
The US being able to handle the World Cup was never really in doubt. One
of the things the US does very well is manage LARGE events. The infrastructure
and expertise exist in abundance. Filling up the stadiums - especially with
all the fans from other countries - was never a real concern either.

each round robin (6 groups) has 6 games + 4 QF, 2 SF, 1F.
Thats a total of 43 games. Selling out 43*70,000 seats is not
all that tough.

The Crazy Met

>>     What's a better reason? I make no apologies. I will be deeply saddened
>>     if the day ever comes when soccer gains a real foothold in this country.
>>     We'll lose a small piece of what sets us apart from the rest of the world.
>>     The games that we play say something about us and if we embrace soccer
>>     that says that we're followers not leaders. That we're imitators not
>>     creators. The arrival of soccer in this country as a major sport will
>>     signal the beginning of the end of the total uniqueness American pop cul-
>>     ture.
    
    
    HAHAHAHAHAHA Tommy, you slay me. I gots me hip waders on.
    You sure that in a previous life you weren't a founder of that
    infamous political party in the 1840's, the KnowNothings?
    
    
    Rollward,
    MikeL
    

notes collision.

The Crazy Met

    
>    As absurd say, as PPV being "the devil's work". No, nothing is really 
>    quite that absurd is it?
    
    That's called intentional hyperbole.  I was going to say "the debil's
    work" to help you out and I guess I should have.  Then again, to be
    fair, you're engaging in a whole lot of hyperbole yourself that I
    suspect I've fallen in for hook line and sinker...
    
 >   My point simply is that we have our own set
 >   of fairly unique sports that we follow here in the States. To have that
 >   change, and it *will* change if soccer gains the level of popularity 
 >   here that it has in the rest of the world, will be a little sad to me
 >   and I don't want to see it happen. Vive la difference and all that crap.
    
    I don't really care about the spectator following so much.  To
    rephrase Knorr's point a bit these sports can co-exist and I don't see
    soccer completely pre-empting anything.  However, I think it's
    indisputable that soccer has many kids (and adults) participating in a 
    sporting activity that they wouldn't be involved with at all otherwise.
    I would have said that it's indisputable that this can't be bad but with 
    this cultural argument where little monsters might grow up to be big
    monsters now I'm not so sure...
    
    glenn
    

�    That's because you is basically uneducated about the game Iggy.
�    Pay attention you may learn something. Since soccer is not an
�    ingrained "American" sport, you have to go beyond the visceral
�    and *think*. Maybe if you expanded yo' horizons and glanced at
    
    Tommy, I really don't understand where you're getting the feeling that
    soccer fans are elitists.
    
�    And Craze, "soccer" was known world-wide as "football" long
�    before we christened our amended rugby as "football".
    
    That's rugby football to you.  I'll admit we may have backslid a bit in
    the evolution of football by including the TV timeout and unlimited
    substitution, but there are some very good reasons why people stopped
    simply standing around kicking a ball to each other.

TCM,

Just to clarify a bit.... I wasn't worried about the things you mentioned,
but I was more worried about having pitches that were acceptable, and
having TV coverage that would handle a non-stop event such as soccer....


To all:

	In case your wondering, in the old days (and I mean the old days)
	what we call soccer was known as Association Football, and
	rugby was known as Rugby Football.  Soccer came as a derivation
	of "Association"......


'Saw

                
>    Tommy, I really don't understand where you're getting the feeling that
>    soccer fans are elitists.
    
    As if perceived ignorance has ever been treated with gentle kindness 
    and polite education in SPROTS.  Least of all by Tommy, on a variety 
    of topics!  Just ask him!  ;-)
    
    glenn
    

re: .188

why help out someone who refuses to use smileys??

The Crazy Met

�    That'd be very easy.  Try most any ethnic neighborhood.  There are 
�    plenty of poor ones. 

	Let me define poor then.  I mean the government classification.  
More than likely unable to afford a house/home.  I don't mean poor as in we 
only can afford one car, or poor as in we don't have a house on the Cape.  
I mean POOR.  I challenge you to go to these kids and start talking about 
soccer.
    
�    I seriously have no idea what you mean by these "racial rathole" 

	If it was played by mostly African Americans or Latins would we 
describe the sport with words like "woven tapestry".  I doubt it.  Probably 
"athleticism".

				/Don

    re: Leary
    
    You're wrong, bucko.  I understand soccer inside and out.  Some of my
    best friends in HS were soccer players (one of 'em used to drag me to 
    watch some local college teams play, and me and another dozen or so people
    used to occasionally actually watch our Varsity play).  I was
    suite-mates with soccer players in college, and while running
    Cross-Country had the pleasure (NOT!) of traveling with the soccer team
    to most of their away matches.  (Much to Mac's amazement, our
    low-budget Division III SPORTS program was a money loser and combined
    soccer/X-country trips to save bucks.)
    
    The sport is DULL, as in boring, as in sleep-inducing.  It's a
    downright event when somebody actually gets a feeble shot on goal that
    gets easily scooped up and booted away.  Goals are as rare as hens
    teeth, and usually come about as the result of some wacko chain of
    events that take place while away for a commerical.  
    
    What other SPORT could afford the luxury of going to commercial in the 
    midst of the "action"?. 
    
    
    - ACC Chris

        
�    That'd be very easy.  Try most any ethnic neighborhood.  There are 
�    plenty of poor ones. 
>
>	Let me define poor then.  I mean the government classification.  
> More than likely unable to afford a house/home.  I don't mean poor as in we 
> only can afford one car, or poor as in we don't have a house on the Cape.  
> I mean POOR.  I challenge you to go to these kids and start talking about 
> soccer.
    
    That's what I meant too.  Poor.  Try the Latin neighborhoods, the Asian
    neighborhoods, the Portuguese neighborhoods.  Central American,
    Caribbean, Brazilian.  In all of these cultures soccer is a popular 
    indigenous game, and remains so in the ethnic American neighborhoods. 
    Certainly dominant to American football...
    
> If it was played by mostly African Americans or Latins would we 
> describe the sport with words like "woven tapestry".  I doubt it.  Probably 
> "athleticism".
    
    Considering that *we* (the US) are the rich ones and that soccer is
    king on every other continent in the world including the impoverished 
    ones and has boasted great international stars like Pele and Maradona
    and many others who came out of absolutely nothing, I don't see how 
    this image of the sport as elitist and European holds up...
    
    glenn
    

yabbut Glenn you're trying to inject facks into this debate.

The Crazy Met

    re: Brydie (i.e. U.S. Soccer == Elitist)
    
    And look at who's won the last three (3) NCAA Men's Soccer Titles.  It
    doesn't get any preppier than the University of Virginia, bubba.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    	Stop interjecting facks Brydie!
    
    				/Don

    HHAHAHAHA laughward again,  Tommy
    
    A_veritable_rookie debating tack... change the subject whence
    your thinhinly-velied sarcasm is exposed.
    
    Shameful!
    
    MikeL
    

    
    With foreign players, Chris.  Hired guns, I think you call them.
    Same is true in the lower divisions with local powers from this area,
    like New Hampshire College, which believe it or not has cleaned up 
    with a lot of African kids on scholarship.  Some probably come from
    families with some money , but they hardly fit the preppie image...
    
> The vast majority of soccer playing kids in this state are white middle/
> upper middle class kids. Go by any soccer tourney in Massachusetts
> and count the imported cars if you doubt it.               
    
    I don't doubt it.  With the possible exception of basketball, the same
    is largely true in the other sports like baseball and football.  The
    richer kids have the advantages in the organized leagues, get better
    coaching, play more organized games and win more often.  This is also 
    what I meant about not using a small cross-section of upscale New 
    England as representative of the country as a whole.  Massachusetts
    overall is not a soccer hotbed, not like New Jersey, New York,
    Maryland, etc.  When I lived outside of DC in some fairly integrated
    areas of Maryland (no, not generally poor) soccer was played by just 
    about everyone through the boys and girls clubs.  These weren't exclusive
    clubs or anything; they were the standard community clubs which all the
    youth sports programs were run from, and soccer was far and away the
    sport most participated in, and this was in the early 70s... 
    
    glenn
     

When Columbia was a soccer power they generally had 2-3 foreign players
that gave them the edge. Double OT loss in December of 1983 to Indiana in
the championship game was tough. CU was undefeated, with 1-2 ties at that 
point.

The Crazy Met

�    What other SPORT could afford the luxury of going to commercial in the 
�    midst of the "action"?. 
    
    Golf, cross-country, marathon, auto racing,...

> auto racing

ask JD about that :-)

The Crazy Met

>>                 -< Easily the worst TV SPORT ever invented. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Soccer does not translate well on TV. Kinda like hockey to the
    uninformed. TV really does not do justice to any sport that
    relies on constant movement.
    
>>   You're wrong, bucko.  I understand soccer inside and out.  Some of my
>>    best friends in HS were soccer players (one of 'em used to drag me to 
>>    watch some local college teams play, and me and another dozen or so people
>>    used to occasionally actually watch our Varsity play).  I was
  
    Yabbut did your "understanding" of soccer preclude this preconceived
    disdain of the sport(dey had to drag me). If you say defensive soccer
    ad nauseum, then it would explain yo' reticense in embracing it.
    Not that there's nothing wrong with defesnive soccer, but ah believe
    America's predilection for offensive firepower has a definite
    causal relationship to kinship for the sport, n'est-ce-pas? 
     
    
     
 >>   The sport is DULL, as in boring, as in sleep-inducing.  It's a
 >>   downright event when somebody actually gets a feeble shot on goal that
>>    gets easily scooped up and booted away.  Goals are as rare as hens
>>    teeth, and usually come about as the result of some wacko chain of
>>    events that take place while away for a commerical.  
    
    Again, depends on your perspective and expectations. I will agree
    wholeheartedly that World Cup '90 in Italy was an immense bore
    with mediocre teams playing "katey bar the door toronto maple leaf
    hockey"  relying on the one big break or shootout to win. BORING.
    Watch Brasil perform soccer. Simply magnifico. 
    No sport is parfait, jest look at NFL '93 for boredom.
    
    MikeL
    

    Waugamain are U sure UVa is loaded with foreigners?  I know some
    soccer power programs (Hartwick, IU, St. Louis) definitely load up on
    the foreigners, but my impression of Virginia was that they were mostly
    'Merican.  I know Carolina has very few foreigners, and is usually one
    of the Top10-15 soccer programs in the country.
    
    One interesting phenomenon in women's soccer is that, despite the
    SPORTS late development here, it's dominated (maybe this is too string
    a word, but we're dang good) by the U.S.A.  Carolina's coach, Toran 
    Dorrance, led the U.S. to a World Cup 'W' last year.  (He took the year 
    off from coaching @ UNC and took several of his top players with 
    him - Carolina won the NCAA's anyway!  Course one of those players was
    Mia Hamm, who is likely the best soccer player in the world.  She's
    100% American, BTW.)
    
    I wonder if perhaps this has something to do with the fact that women
    from many of the top soccer countries are not encouraged to participate
    in SPORTS?
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
>    Again, depends on your perspective and expectations. I will agree
>    wholeheartedly that World Cup '90 in Italy was an immense bore
>    with mediocre teams playing "katey bar the door toronto maple leaf
>    hockey"  relying on the one big break or shootout to win. BORING.
    
    Yep, the last World Cup was very weak.  But I genuinely enjoyed the 
    final games of the 1986 and 1982 Cups.  Especially Italy's victory in 
    1982, featuring Paulo Rossi's assault on the nets.  For some reason I
    was much more into the World Cup that year, in part because my 
    father was living in Spain at that time.  Even as an admitted 
    complete novice I didn't find these 2-0, 2-1, 3-1 final round games 
    too boring.  The teams were legitimately playing to win, and as with
    well-played baseball, each of the 2-4 goals scored in the games had
    great meaning and kept them sustained at a high level of tension.
    
    Especially when it gets to the later stages of the tourney I expect 
    that I will let my country down and watch with some fair interest...
    
    glenn
    

    
>>    Especially when it gets to the later stages of the tourney I expect 
>>    that I will let my country down and watch with some fair interest...
    
>>    glenn
  
    Good one monsieur.. I suppose you'll be marched out to that same tree
    after they're done with moi..
    
    HA
    MikeL
    
      

    
>     When I lived in the South End and in Worcester, the kids in the neigh-
>     borhood whether they were Asian or Hispanic or Black didn't play soccer
>     they played basketball. And the the biggest reason isn't lack of coach-
>     ing. You don't need coaches to play a pickup game. The biggest reason is
>     that it's a dull ass sport.     
    
    I respect this point of view from your experience (except maybe for the
    last sentence).  Still, I think we've gotten off the track here with
    this more anecdotal and possibly parochial evidence on both my part on
    yours, where things are defined based on who succeeds at the very highest
    local levels and such.  Bottom line is that soccer, along with baseball,
    enjoys the highest participation in organized youth sports in this
    country, numbering in the tens of millions.  Now even though "organized" 
    sports aren't the be-all and end-all, I still can't label this activity 
    with that kind of large-scale participation as "elitist".  If that's
    the case then most of us (in here) are elitists, merely by being
    average.  We're talking about the norm, the commonplace, and even if 
    that doesn't make the such a sport the #1 game of choice in the 
    inner-city or wherever else, I can't throw it out as socially or 
    culturally unredeeming.  Exactly the opposite, in fact. 
    
    glenn
     

I enjoyed the Germany-England game in the last World Cup, in the semis,
that eliminated England.  I think it was Germany that eliminated England.

At any rate, it was a good game -- better than the final, although the
right team won in the final as far as I was concerned....8^)


Mike and Glenn, save me a branch, okay?


'Saw

>     You're all laughing now but in twenty years when we're all driving on
>     the left hand side of the road, our kids are watching non-violent car-
>     toons and our women are sporting so much hair under their armpits that 
>     it looks like they have Don King in a headlock then then THEN you'll
>     wish you had listened to me.     


Dammit Tommy!  I wish you'd wait until I finish my coffee before putting
in notes like this.  Just got another caffeine wash for my sinuses.....

MikeL, you got it wrong. Glenn will be strung up before you, he admits
that it is treason :-)

The Crazy Met

    Wail, I hope that 'Saw is after glenn afore me.
    
    Mebbe y'all will git tired by then
    
    8^)
    
    MikeL
    

dream on Mikey :-) ND is more likely to win this years MNC then
Tommy, et al getting tired of stringing 'em up :-)

The Crazy Met

>
>    Wail, I hope that 'Saw is after glenn afore me.
>    
>    Mebbe y'all will git tired by then
    

Well, you might get lucky.  If'n there's only one tree around, I might
be so big that I break the branch.  If that's the case, then you'll
be all set....


'Saw    

	Tell you what.  I'm a main with an open mind, so's I propose the 
following.  On my nightly januts to the Dunkin Donuts near my home to get a 
coffee and chocolate frosted donut, I'll stop and axe the local toughs who 
hang around the street corner what they think about the marvelous 
MaraMadonna and "woven tapestry".  To make this a fair and honest sampling, 
I'll separately poll the black, latin and white kids.  If I don't get 
stabbed to death, I'll report back on my findings.

				/Don

    -1,
    
    Where you live Slash? Leominster? All the toughs out there are prolly
    wearin' skirts. You'll prolly be smothered in red lipstick.
    
    MikeL
    

    	No MikeL, to my knowledge none of them are soccer fans...
    
    				/Don

    Yes I am familiar with Leominster Thomas.
    
    Mah sis went to Fitchburg St and mah bud's wife's from Leominster
    so I been there on several occasions. Tongue in cheek.
    Mebbe I shoulda said Clinton.
    
    BTW, I was raised in tough Winthrop, right next to Reveyah and
    Eastie. Quite a bit of interaction between the three "towns"
    if ya catch my drift. Not exactly the quiet burbs where ah reside
    now that I'm in me late youth 8^)
    
    MikeL
    
    

    MikeL, you ain't never gonna be able to live down that "tapestry"
    remark now.  Slash goes in that place talking like that he probably
    will come out as someone's bride...
    
    glenn
    

    
    Nah,
    he goes in there quotin' tapestry, and they'll tell him the cross
    buns are on the second shelf.
    
    MikeL
    

    
>     Not really. It's not like anyone with a modicum of sense thought that 
>     soccer was anything but sissified sport favored by non-violent, poet-
>     ical-waxing, let-all-the-kids-play, suburban geeks.
    
    Is this where I'm supposed to say that I'm deeply insulted by that kind
    of language?  ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    I played soccer in high school and in my first year of college.  It's
    anything but a "sissified sport".  It's the most physically demanding
    sport I've ever played, including basketball.  
    
    - Rope

    
    
    >>It's the most physically demanding
    >>sport I've ever played, including basketball.
    
    
      Don't matter. If it don't appeal to you while sitting 
    your fat lazy butt in the easy chair pumpin' some serious aluminum, 
    then it ain't a sport.
    
      

    
>     Not really. It's not like anyone with a modicum of sense thought that 
>     soccer was anything but sissified sport favored by non-violent, poet-
>     ical-waxing, let-all-the-kids-play, suburban geeks.
    
  � Is this where I'm supposed to say that I'm deeply insulted by that kind
  � of language?  ;-)

      No, this is where you're supposed to say something like, "Soccer is as 
      vicious as a cheetah taking down an antelope on the sun baked plains of 
      the Serengeti. The constant struggle for survival, as timeless as the
      roar of the victor and the anguished cry of the vanquished. Death. But
      in death, life. And in life a renewal of self. Yes, soccer is indeed
      non-violent but the struggles are no less vicious than the everyday 
      struggle for life on this bluegreen orb called Earth." And then I say
      something like, "What have you been taking Frank Way pills or sumpin'?"
    

    
    
    >>Shouldn't you be busy exposing a fix in some sporting even that you
    >>didn't watch?
    
    
     Like the Roberto Duran fight last week?
    
          

    What did you play other than basketball and soccer, Rope, badminton?

That thing about the Serengeti was good.  Mind if I use it?

8^)

> That thing about the Serengeti was good.  Mind if I use it?

For your New Year's message?? :-)

The Crazy Met

    Hey let's keep fighting out of this year mainly soccer note.
    
    Take  "fighting" (and ah don't mean boxin' cuz Duran's fight was
                      a sham)  to the basketball or baseball note whar
                      it belongs.
    
    MikeL
    

    Hey, don't be using all those athletic animal metaphors for soccer
    players; you'll get Slash all upset.  You have to go with something
    that the soccer audience can relate to.  The great but gray Maradona
    should be in a rocking chair, his energies sapping; yet somehow in
    bursts still capable of slapping needle upon needle to intertwine 
    the delicate fabric fibers, producing a tapestry, or elegant rug, 
    or maybe just a small throwrug but a rug nonetheless...
    
    glenn
    

I was flipping around the dial last night, killing time before the
excellent CBS retrospective on 1968 came on, and I happened upon
"Christmas Greeting from QVC in the United Kingdom"....


They wished us all a Happy Christmas, and then they said that the heathens
in the colonies who didn't like soccer were pooftahs, or something like
that.....


8^)

>
>  Care to explain exactly what the hell you're talking about?
>

Relax my main... just a_attempt at makin' you smile.


I was channel surfing last night, and as I passed the QVC channel, 
they had this "banner" screen up, and it said "Holiday Greetings from
QVC in the United Kingdom".

Well, I didn't realize they had QVC in the United Kingdom so I turned
up the sound, and there were these two English folks, wishing all the QVC
views a "Happy Christmas"....

I just added the rest myself....8^)


'Saw

    Hey slasher - ain't the most popular sport in the Fitchburg/Leominster
    area drive-by shootings?  Leominster ain't the handgun capital of the
    Northeast by accident!
    
    Come to think of it, America's biggest sports legacy is shootin' each
    other.  I'd wager more people in AMerica own a handgun than a soccer
    ball.  Despite the hooligans that follow England's soccer team, England
    has fewer gun-related deaths per year than New York has in a weekend.
    So, the moral is obvious:  Americans should start playing soccer and 
    stop shooting each other.
    
    That would really make for a Merry Christmas!
    
    NAZZ 

    At least more soccer might stop the 12 year olds from packin' heat at 
    the junior high!
    
    Getting back to who plays, Dracut is far from an ethnic hotbed, but
    there is a group of Portugese, Brazilian, and Hispanic adults who have
    a weekend soccer league in town.  Some old white guys are in it too.
    I've seen them play a couple of times, and how they understand each
    other is a mystery to me!  Lowell is very much an inner city high
    school, and their soccer team won the Merrimack Valley championship
    over some real brie-eating towns like Andover.  I saw them play twice,
    and their team is also an ethnically mixed squad.  Soccer is one of the
    few activities where blacks, whites, and everyone in between can play
    together, no matter how big or small they are.  That is one reason why
    soccer is so popular - everyone can play.
    
    NAZZ

    
    	"Drive by hissy-fits"?  Rollward!  That's twice this week I've
    	had to clean this stupid keyboard off.
    
    Claybone

re: last note/title

NOT!!!

The Crazy Met

>       Lowell also has a large immigrant population. I wonder how many of
>       those kids came all the way through Lowell's youth soccer program.
    
    What's the point here now, though?  If these kids are passing this
    all-important litmus test of not being "wimps" and are still playing
    and succeeding, then it's not inherently the game itself that's
    deficient.  In fact, if anything, it points out (as Nazz said and I've
    been saying all along) that the sport is very egalitarian, with very
    few resources required to get started and involve many youngsters,
    formally or informally.  If the idea is to knock this out of these 
    kids' heads with this ludicrous notion that "no, that's the rich kid's 
    game", then the opportunity is lost.  Once again we Americans are
    right and the rest of the world is wrong...
    
    glenn
      

  >> all-important litmus test of not being "wimps" and are still playing
  >
  >   Who said they're not wimps? Wimpiness isn't determined by where you live 
  >   or the color of your skin.
    
    I agree.  I'm just responding to the idea about how telling it is that 
    game isn't popular in Fitchburg and such, with the Slash's modest
    proposal that if he didn't get a knife stuck in his belly for broaching
    the subject at the local Dunkin' Donuts it might be okay...  ;-)
    
>     This great egalit-
>     arian sport that is being embraced as some kind of panacea for our social
>     ills hasn't even been met with minimal acceptance by the vast vast VAST
>     majority of poor kids if they've even been exposed to it.
   
    Let's just leave the discussion in a sports context and forget about
    the social cure-alls (I'm pretty sure Nazz was joking anyway).  It's
    always been my opinion that our country's sports establishment has 
    done more harm than good to these poor kids anyway, such that it
    wouldn't be a bad thing to emphasize a sport (any sport, really) 
    purely from recreational goals.  But that's a totally different 
    subject, I guess... 
                                                           
    glenn
    

    Yes Glenn - I was joking.  I purposely didn't put in any smilies to 
    see who was payin' attention!
    
    Dracut plays Fitchburg in youth soccer.  They sip.
    
    NAZZ

> I purposely didn't put in any smilies 

and you would have thought that of all people Tommy would understand this.

The Crazy Met

    Had to laugh on the way to work today after hearing an ad for
    Nickelodeon on the radio.  It's a conversation between a promoter for
    Nickelodeon and this southern drill sargeant type, who's appalled that
    there isn't any football being shown on the station on New Year's Eve.
    The last couple of lines reminded me of the discussion going on here.
    
    southern guy says:  "You know what I think?"
    Nickelodeon guy:  "What?"
    southern guy:  "I think you're some kind of soccer boy."

I heard that too this morning.
What a hoot.
'Specially liked the "Football on New Years bin a tradition
fer a thousand years, boy!"

    
    The only reason you lot don't like soccer is cause you don't have the
    ability to do 2 things with your feet at the one time. And dont hit the
    rest of the world with all this it aint macho enough for us americans
    to play crap. Your 3 great sports are played over here:
    
    Baseball- we call it rounders, it's played by girls in junior school.
    Basketball- called netball, another womans game
    Football- it's just rugby with pads incase youse hurt each other
    
    Hope you all enjoy the World Cup 
    					Kenny
    

     Speak for yourself.

    If "our"games areplayed by girls in Junior School there,then it must be
    because the menfolk you have there cannot master the mental aspect of
    these games. In other words your womenfolk are smarter and can learn
    the game better and faster than "soccer" men folk can. Nuff said.
    
	Just kidding!
    
    	@@
    	 >
    	\_/ 

    Real true football fact:
    
    When asked to describe themselves, nine out of ten American football
    players use the noun "Duhhh".
    

Flay that horse boys.  It's only been dead for two weeks now.  

Flay it hard.....

    
    Apparently soccer fans think so...

    When asked to describe themselves 9 out of 10 NFL players said ....
     
    			SAD
    
    D.

    SPORTS biggest Dolphin fan comes out of hiding to trash the NFL?  Go
    figure.

    Anybody see "Shoe" in yesterday's funny pages?  Skyler (I think that's
    the characters name) is unsuiting from football and is wondering what
    the game would be like if it was played without all of the equipment. 
    There he is standing in his underwear with his cleats still on when he
    realizes it would be soccer.

    Guess you had to be there.
    
    Mark.

    re: .265
    
    Oh dear - I seem to have been caught with my panties down ! The
    phrase crossed purposes comes to mind. But go easy on me - I'm a
    grid fan from way back, living in a Euro country where soccer is king.
    I still stick up for it when it's being slayed as it's still a good
    game.
         Davie (shrinking Dolfan)
    
    BTW - you must've dug hard to find that out.

    German soccer player Oskar ???? was stabbed by a woman while watching
    an indoor soccer game in Germany.
    
    Unbelievable..
    
    MikeL
    

    Latest polls rank the U.S. team at #14 in the world.  Their opponent on
    Saturday here in Tempe, Norway, is #5.

Don't put too much faith (i.e. any) in those FIFA polls. They take account of
how many games you play, how you do, etc so you can go up them by playing lots
of games, rather than by being any good.

Mike

    Mike, are you going to the game?  If so, please give us a full report. 
    I'm especially interested in learning who shows up to play for the US.
    If Wynalda, Harkes, Ramos, and Meola are back with the team, that would
    be a very positive step toward the WOrld Cup.
    
    NAZZ

Speaking of Harkes, I haven't heard much of him out of Sheffield Wednesday
this year?

Has he been having a poor year?


'Saw

    Harkes was sold to Derby in Division 1 at the beginning of the season.
    
    NAZZ

>    Harkes was sold to Derby in Division 1 at the beginning of the season.
    
Well, duh, no wonder why I didn't hear about him....

Division 1, eh?  I never get ANY news about Division 1.....


'SAw

Derby are making a big push to get promoted into the Premier League, so that's
probably why they bought Harkes. I don't think they paid �1.2 million for him
though, I seem to recall it was nearer �500,000. He might be injured at the
moment because I haven't heard anything about him.

Mike

    >                      -< Is soccer among your passions? >-
    
    not really Nazz, but I have friends and family members who have played
    it or are in leagues now.  I don't have plans on going at this moment.

    Hey NAZZ!
    
    Get any tickets to any Foxboro World Cup Games??
    Too bad Italy and Ireland are going to NY. Woulda loved to see
    either one.  I believes Waugamain has a coupla Foxboro tix.
    
    MikeL
    

>    Too bad Italy and Ireland are going to NY. Woulda loved to see
>    either one.  I believes Waugamain has a coupla Foxboro tix.
    
    Naw, I don't.  I sent in for the huge crapshoot on that quarterfinal game 
    but I don't know when or if they've held the lottery.  I just figured 
    that if I won the two tickets that a) it'd be a very important game and 
    a once-in-lifetime-experience, or b) that the tickets would be worth
    many times their weight in gold to someone who actually believes a).  
    
    Anyone know what's up with these ticket lotteries, though?
    
    glenn
    

    
    Are any of the games going to be played in the REAL mid-west (you know,
    actually WEST of the Mississippi), ideally in the four-corners area?
    
    Marc
    

    Marc, they're playing in Tempe tomorrow at Sun Devil Stadium.

    
    ...and everyone knows AZ is 1/4 of the four corners area.
    
    brews

    The Ninj got me in to work a couple of the games at Foxboro.  I got
    unlucky and will miss Argentina.  I got SOuth Korea - Bolivia and
    Bulgaria - Greece.
    
    NAZZ

    USA scores late in the game to beat Norway 2-1.

    This was an outstanding victory for the US team, to come back after
    trailing 1-0 at the half to a team that won their qualifying group over
    the Netherlands and England.  I heard Cobi Jones got the winner, but
    I didn't get any more details.
    
    NAZZ

    ...and the winning goal came with about 2 minutes left.

Nice to see they tried for the win and didn't settle for the tie....

    So, did you go, Mike?

    No, I watched the highlights on the news.  They said only 15K+ were on
    hand to watch (in a stadium that holds 72K+).

I'm pretty sure Eric Wynalda hit a shot that the keeper  couldn't hold and Cobi
knocked in the rebound from about 6 yards away...

I'm thinking about going to see the US vs. The russian national team in a few
weeks at the kingdome...

Metz

    Does anyone know what happened to the USA_YOUTH_SOCCER notesfile?
    It's been unreachable for about a month.
    
    Thanks.
    
    NAZZ
    
    

   > They said only 15K+ were on    hand to watch (in a stadium that holds
   > 72K+)
    
    More evidence of the good taste of Arizonans.
    
    brews

    NAZZ,
    
    Youth soccer notesfile is now at:
    
    MEMIT::BECCA::USA$YOUTH$SOCCER
    
    Clark
    

    Thanks!
    
    NAZZ

On the news this morning:

Germans and England are scheduled to play in Germany on April ??. That
day was Hitler's birthday and the German skinheads announced they would use
the match to "celebrate". The English soccer fans heard this and announced that
they would come prepared to ruin the celebration.

The soccer fans are now scheduling their riots.

The Crazy Met

Article: 14325
From: [email protected] (UPI)
Newsgroups: clari.news.interest.history,clari.news.interest.people,clari.news.europe,clari.news.demonstration,clari.sports.misc
Subject: Hitler birthday soccer game canceled
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 94 7:54:42 PST
 
	BONN (UPI) -- The German city of Hamburg Wednesday canceled a Germany-
England soccer match because it was scheduled to be held Apr. 20, the
date of Adolf Hitler's birthday.
	The city authorities in the northern German city said, after
consultations with representatives of the two national teams, that the
decision was taken because of concern there could be neo-Nazi riots
during the game.
	A senior city official said Hamburg wanted to avoid offering a stage
for radical rightists to ``play out their aggressions''
	The match was initially scheduled to be held in the northern German
port city.
	There has been speculation that the match could still take place Apr.
20, but that the two national teams would meet at London's Wembley
stadium.
	German national coach Berti Vogt has said the match would be
important to prepare the players for the World Cup finals in the United
States.
	nnnn

so now we have English, German, and Dutch fans that go to games to riot.
Real great sport!

The Crazy Met

    
    >>Is there a sport in the world that has more crime associated with it?
    
      Yeah, boxing.
    
    
    

    thanks to soccer, we're heading toward world anarchy.

some people never disappoint.

The Crazy Met

    How many of your kids did you say play soccer, Mike?

we'll see what happens when (mercer?) goes on trial. It's kind of tough to
argue with videotape...

Personally I think Don King would be a great head of FIFA. You'd probably see 
the Americans  win the  cup in '94 and then they would abdicate in favor of the
French club that was caught trying to fix a game.

Metz

> It's kind of tough to
> argue with videotape...

Can you say Rodney King? There was also another case in the NE (Boston area)
that there was a videotape and the people got off.

The Crazy Met

    >    How many of your kids did you say play soccer, Mike?
    
    none of them do.  One played in a 6-game league over a year ago and
    hasn't played since.

    re: 307
    
    Wasn't that why they banned instant replay :-)
    
    Davie.

Get Congress to send the World Cup somewhere else? Please, do it today. It might
have escaped your attention, but the rest of the world (apart from FIFA
committee) weren't desperately keen on letting you lot butcher our sport in the
first place.

International rivalries are going to be a feature of any international sport.
The only reason you've not come across them before is because no other country
in the world wants to play your silly games. 8-)

Mike

Can you say baseketball?? There I knew you could.

The Crazy Met

�International rivalries are going to be a feature of any international sport.
�The only reason you've not come across them before is because no other country
�in the world wants to play your silly games. 8-)
    
    Glad to see that smiley there, Mike.  People the world around flock to
    see Americans play basketball.  They are also setting up leagues and
    working real hard to knock off the Americans in the Olympics and World
    Games.  Your own homecountry seems to be going crazy over American
    Football.  People stay up in the wee hours to watch the Super Bowl. 
    Leagues are forming all over, both professional and amatuer.  In the
    American_Football notesfile a woman from Germany reports on her Women's
    American Football games.

    True enough Mac but,
    All this hooey aside (shame on you Mike Fowler for falling for
    these jaded faux anatagonisms *^), explain why soccer is an
    expanding sport among this country's youth?
    
    MikeL
    

    He'll have to expand his IQ first if it's only US football he's played
    :-)
    
    Only kidding ! But it's nice to get a dig back in, albeit belated.
    
    Davie.

I think American football has pretty much stopped expanding in the UK, and
compared to football it's a nothing. The coverage has got progressively worse
each year, and now runs at about 11.00p.m. on a Monday evening, which is not
exactly prime time. Basketball I'm not sure about, there's an hour of NBA stuff
a week but it's on saturday afternoon, which is again, not prime time. 

Football on the other hand is growing. It's got prime time coverage, it's the
biggest selling point for satellite television, and Channel 4 (who were
responsible for introducing American football into England) have now switched
their emphasis to Italian football (soccer) which is gaining in popularity at a
meteoric rate.

There's always going to be a small group of people in every nation that fall for
the slick marketing and crass commercialism of American sports, but those true
sports fans with any touch of common decency and integrity will always be
devoted to football.

Still, what do you care?

Mike

    But soccer has been wildly popular in Europe for ages. Now there is
    more TV coverage. The one real untapped market for Soccer is the US and
    even with the World Cup taking place here I do not see it increasing in
    popularity enough for a top pro league to develop. On the other hand
    many of the US sports - especially basketball - have huge markets to
    to still conquer and can play very well on TV.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

�    All this hooey aside (shame on you Mike Fowler for falling for
�    these jaded faux anatagonisms *^), explain why soccer is an
�    expanding sport among this country's youth?
    
    They're too young to know any better. 
    It's cheap to start up a program.
    Gives today's parents an opportunity to feel more involved with child
    rearing, or another excuse to keep them out of the house under the
    watchful eye of someone else.
    
    But don't you worry.  There is a game on the horizon that will save
    these kids from this sissy sport.  The game already has a strong
    hold in New Zealand, the United Kingdom, Australia, and Canada.  It's
    called, Mini Rugby.  It's a non-contact version of 7-a-side Rugby Union
    Football geared for the 5-12 year olds.  The contact version kicks in
    for the older kids when they are physically equipped to handle it. 
    High school football coaches are already coming around as they see
    their rugby playing kids making laterals to each other to create the
    game winning touchdown.

    Ah Mac,
    You're being faux and you know it.  Soccer is a great sport as well
    as rugby. So what if soccer doesn't catch on here as a pro
    sport. It's fun and young athletes enjoy it.
    Explain why rugby hasn't caught on in America as a national
    past time? Enjoyabe, yes, but popular? No..
    
    MikeL
    

�    You're being faux and you know it.  Soccer is a great sport as well
�    as rugby. 
    
    If soccer were such a great sport, William Webb Ellis would have had no
    need to improve it.
    
�    Explain why rugby hasn't caught on in America as a national
�    past time? 
    
    Until recently it has been run entirely by volunteers without the time
    (and sometimes without a clue) to market it properly.  From its noble
    beginnings at Harvard, it degenerated into a fringe sport played mostly
    by anti-establishment types who revelled in the party aspects of the
    game.  This is no longer the case (and hasn't been for at least 10
    years), but old stereotypes are tough to break.  It has not been an
    Olympic sport since 1924.  The International Rugby Board is an Old Boys
    network who pay nothing more than lip service to developing the game
    outside of the 8 or so countries that founded the IRB.  With the 40
    minute halves and only a halftime break, it does not lend itself well
    to TV and their advertisers.  

As enjoyable as rugby is, it isn't close to being as popular in England
as soccer is, from what I've heard.

Soccer's a cool game, so is rugby, and so is baseball and football.

Hoops is okay, but not high on my priority list....


I wish we had more curling coverage though....8^)


'Saw

    Don't even joke about curling coverage to me ! TV bosses up here seem
    to think that because we're up in the glens & it is prone to snow that
    all us Gaelic sons like nothing better than watching curling on TV. It
    gets more coverage than gridiron. Saturday afternoons/nights & Sunday
    afternoons.
    
    Ach aye, it's richt braw tae be a Scot :-)
    
    Davie.

>    Don't even joke about curling coverage to me ! TV bosses up here seem
>    to think that because we're up in the glens & it is prone to snow that
>    all us Gaelic sons like nothing better than watching curling on TV. It
>    gets more coverage than gridiron. Saturday afternoons/nights & Sunday
>    afternoons.
>    
>    Ach aye, it's richt braw tae be a Scot :-)
    

Davie, my heart goes out to you laddie.  Curling on TV.  Why, I think I'd
rather watch paint dry.

There's a commercial on TV here now for one of those three-wheeled
motorized "cart" type things that a lot of invalids use.  In one scene
it shows this woman who looks a bit like Marge Schott saying

	"Curling is an exciting sport.  I can't play it any more,
	 but my [insert brand name of motorized cart] let's me get
	 down here so I don't miss all the action"

I laughed my ass off, I really did.


Curling, eh?  That's cruel and unusual punishment....


'Saw

�Curling, eh?  That's cruel and unusual punishment....
    
    Oh yeah, like bass fishing, monster truck pulls, golf, and soccer are
    any worse.

>    Oh yeah, like bass fishing, monster truck pulls, golf, and soccer are
>    any worse.

Monster truck pulls are pretty dumb.  I never watch bass fishing.  

Golf is okay, depending on who's winning, and I like to watch soccer.

'Saw

    
    	Ha!  Mac offering criticism of *unpopular* events whilst
    	trumpeting the virtues of the ever unpopular rugby game.
    	It is to laugh......
    
    	To each his own I say.
    
    Claybone

    I must admit that the monster truck stuff is pure dung. They put it on
    TV here on holiday w/ends after old re-runs of cartoons. Guess you
    don't have to think too hard....
    
    At least in curling there's a chance one of those mousctached wimps
    might slip & fall on his ass !
    
    Ah well.

    Claybone, don't make me come out there and slap you.  My "unpopular"
    sport has almost 1400 clubs in the US alone.  It is played in about as
    many countries as soccer.  It is considered the National sport in Wales
    and New Zealand and is close to it in South Africa and Australia.

    
    	I doubt anybody could *make* you do anything big guy.  But,
    	if you're willing to try on your own..... :*)
    
    	I'd be willing to bet that more folks fish than play rugby.
    	Don't get me wrong.  I don't watch those fishin' shows or
    	anything.  I just thought it was amusing coming from you.
    	1400 clubs doesn't quite equate to popular to me (if you
    	compare it to everybody that drowns a worm).  When you slammed
    	fishin' shows, well.....
    
    Claybone

    I have nothing against fishing.  I just never considered it to be a
    specator sport.

    -1:   Neither did I about curling. :^)
    
    Davie.
    

Mac, I'm as big a rugby fan as anyone I know, excepting perhaps you, but
I'd hardly call rugby popular.  1400 clubs or no, for the most part
the only folks who are into rugby are rugby players, their families and
friends....

Great sport, a lot of fun to play, but I don't see it eclipsing "The
American Outdoorsman" in popularity on TV....


'Saw

    Australian rules football developed quite a big TV following in the US. 
    With the right marketing and 7-a-side rugby, I think Rugby Union could
    do OK in the US.

>    Australian rules football developed quite a big TV following in the US. 
>    With the right marketing and 7-a-side rugby, I think Rugby Union could
>    do OK in the US.

Big compared to what?  Grandma Gertrudes Quilting Bee?

I don't see that Aussie Rules Football has any bigger a following than
English League Football.  The last time I saw Aussie Rules I was flipping
around late night when I couldnt' sleep.  

Sevens would be the way to go, but I don't see it getting a ton of
popularity.....realistically speaking.....


'Saw

�Big compared to what?  Grandma Gertrudes Quilting Bee?
    
    Big enough to at least get airtime on at least 2 national sports
    networks (ESPN & PRIME).  Big enough where at least most folks on the
    street know what the game is.

    Big enough to try and find the ref outfit for Halloween and have Grand
    Final parties at school...

>>    Big enough to try and find the ref outfit for Halloween and have Grand
>>    Final parties at school...


Hey, I love watching it.  I really do.  The refs are too cool.

I think that a$$hole Jocko kind of put a bad taste in some folks mouth,
but it is a cool sport....


'Saw

    Did he play that?  I never saw him play. I just figured it was you
    stereotype Aussie like Crocodile Dundee was talking about...
    

>    Did he play that?  I never saw him play. I just figured it was you
>    stereotype Aussie like Crocodile Dundee was talking about...

No, he was an Aussie rules player (Oy! Oy!) and then he was like suspended
for something bad, like running another player's head into the goalpost
or biting some guys ear off -- I forget which.

So he came over hear and was the predecessor to the Everready Bunny.....

Last I hear, his film career went fish-belly up, and he's back in Oz....


'Saw
    

    He can hang out with the Boz I guess then...
    

    Tough break for the US team:  their top forward Roy Wegerle, while
    playing for Coventry City in the England Premier League, partially tore
    his anterior cruciate ligament in his knee and will be sidelined for up
    to two months.
    
    NAZZ

    I saw that too NAZZ,
    
    If he's healthy by April, he should be OK.. he'll have lost that
    competetive edge, but we'll take healthy.
    
    MikeL
    

    Mark Jackson, aka Jacko, played Rules for the Geelong club. He acted
    the fool while playing footy as well, but was an above average player by
    most accounts. Australians are quite embarrased about his TV exposure
    in the US. I shared a few ales with him one time a found him quite the
    entertainer...he hates a beer though ;-)
    
    RE: rugby...I think Americans would enjoy Rugby League more as opposed
    to Union. The rules are clearer, there are not as many stopages in play
    and the hitting and tackling are much more fierce. The athletes that
    play League are the most well conditioned as any I have seen. There's
    no where to hide when you play league. A true mainly sport!

>    Mark Jackson, aka Jacko, played Rules for the Geelong club. He acted
>    the fool while playing footy as well, but was an above average player by
>    most accounts. Australians are quite embarrased about his TV exposure
>    in the US. I shared a few ales with him one time a found him quite the
>    entertainer...he hates a beer though ;-)

I have to admit I found him funny when I first saw him.  I've never seen
any footage of him playing "Rules" though -- that might be interesting.
Quite the character I guess.


    
>    RE: rugby...I think Americans would enjoy Rugby League more as opposed
>    to Union. The rules are clearer, there are not as many stopages in play
>    and the hitting and tackling are much more fierce. The athletes that
>    play League are the most well conditioned as any I have seen. There's
>    no where to hide when you play league. A true mainly sport!

As someone who has played Union, I could never get into League.  But in 
a sense you are correct -- League would probably catch on here, but I think
because it's closer to American football (from what I know of it) than
Union is.....


'Saw

�    RE: rugby...I think Americans would enjoy Rugby League more as opposed
�    to Union. The rules are clearer, there are not as many stopages in play
�    and the hitting and tackling are much more fierce. 
    
    I don't know that much about League, but I thought there were more
    stoppages in that form of the game due to use of something similar to
    American Football's "Downs".  As for the tackling, that is true if you
    compare Union to League in the UK, NZ, or Oz, but the Union game in the
    US is well known for their fierce tackling and hitting.  This is a
    result of the influence of American Football on the US Union game.

>    US is well known for their fierce tackling and hitting.  This is a
>    result of the influence of American Football on the US Union game.


Yeah.  If I couldn't make a little snot run outta the guy's nose when I
hit him, I didn't feel like I was doing my job....

8^)

Aw consider the source.  Mardonna was probably coked up when he did it too....

speaking of drugs, here's some catchy lines in another CLARI article on
this:

	On Wednesday, Maradona told a Buenos Aires radio station that he was
insulted by several journalists who were gathered outside his home. He
said someone was shouting about his former problem with drug addiction,
and that he went out to the fence to confront the person.
	``I went to face them because I have my daughters (at home) and they
ask me why they are shouting,'' Maradona said. ``I know that whenever
something happens to me they are going to bring drugs into it.''
	Maradona's actions have caused a major buzz among Argentines, with
radio and television call-in shows dwelling on the subject.

You gotta like the lines "bring drugs into it" and "major buzz".

TTom

�	BUENOS AIRES (UPI) -- Argentine soccer star Diego Maradona said
�Wednesday that he was insulted by several journalists outside his home
�near Buenos Aires when he fired at them with an air rifle, injuring
�four.
    
    And people put up a stink when Clemens bopped a reporter off the head
    with a few hamburger buns and Deion dumped some ice water on Tim
    McCarver...

>
>You gotta like the lines "bring drugs into it" and "major buzz".
>

Must be that brown acid.....


Actually, from my point of view, Mardonna is a guy you love to hate.
I think he's overrated.  Plus, he's had his share of problems with
tooting snow up his nose...

But that's a great article in terms of the lines you mentioned....


'Saw

    1.  Maradonna is much bigger ww than Clemens
    
    2.  He is that good by all accounts.  Better in what he does than
    	Clemens in what he does.
    
    whether he plays in world cup is questionable, I hope so

    Hi everybody, I'm from Holland and over here Soccer is the nr. 1
    national sport. Now, with the WC coming to your country (USA) in the
    summer of this year, I wanted to hear from you people over there what
    you think about soccer, what you know about soccer, how do you feel
    about the WC coming to the USA and If soccer is becoming more populair
    in the States.
    
    I'd like to know your opinion about the game of soccer.
    
    Marcel

Maradona's a washed-up a coke-head. He just to be the best player on the planet
by a ton, but not any more. in the 86 World Cup he was absolutely awesome and
won it practically single-handed. 8-) (in-joke for football fans)

Mike

Hi Marcel,

The football note in this conference is number 18, but you'd be better off
trying the football conference TRUCKS::FOOTBALL, which is devoted to the world's
top sport. 

Cheers,

mike

    
    
    	Yabbut Marcel,
    
    That was a joke.......right?
    
    ;^)
    
    
    anyway, welcome to da ::sportsbar
    
    I remain,
    ::Sports social director and part of da welcoming committee
    Kev
    

    
    Soccer is for sissies.
    
    BOSS

    Mike Fowler was asked his opinion about soccer and he said that sports 
    tastes are completely subjective and though he may not like it that 
    doesn't make it bad; it just means that he doesn't like it and nothing 
    more. Brews, /Slasher, and Tommy don't like soccer?  You're not supposed 
    to. You were never the intended audience.  It's a sport by, for and about 
    disenfranchised Europeans not Americans.

>>>>>
Soccer is for sissies.
    
    BOSS
>>>>>

Presumably the type of sissies that you keep whittering on about because they
are all "hooligans" and "should be banned". Or maybe the kind that are too
scared to take part in the all-star-game because they might get hurt? Oh no, I'm
getting mixed up, that was another sport.

I guess you're just not used to World Championships where other countries are
allowed to take part. 8-)

mike

>Presumably the type of sissies that you keep whittering on about because they
>are all "hooligans" and "should be banned". Or maybe the kind that are too
>scared to take part in the all-star-game because they might get hurt? Oh no, I'm
>getting mixed up, that was another sport.

I think he means nancy-boys....


>
>I guess you're just not used to World Championships where other countries are
>allowed to take part. 8-)
>

Surely you can't be referring to things like basketball at the Olympics,
right 8^)

>>>>>
>
>I guess you're just not used to World Championships where other countries are
>allowed to take part. 8-)
>

Surely you can't be referring to things like basketball at the Olympics,
right 8^)
>>>>>

So what you're telling me then is that the World Champion Chicago Bulls won that
title at the Barecelona Olympics? And presumably, by the same token, the World
Champion Dallas Cowboys won their title there too? Many apologies, I'll never
cast aspersions on the universal popularity of your sports again. 8-)

mike

>So what you're telling me then is that the World Champion Chicago Bulls won that
>title at the Barecelona Olympics? And presumably, by the same token, the World
>Champion Dallas Cowboys won their title there too? Many apologies, I'll never
>cast aspersions on the universal popularity of your sports again. 8-)

No, I'm telling you that the Olympic basketball team, with several minor
exceptions, won their titles in a world competition.  (Read what I write,
not what you think I write....)

'Saw

>>>>>
>So what you're telling me then is that the World Champion Chicago Bulls won that
>title at the Barecelona Olympics? And presumably, by the same token, the World
>Champion Dallas Cowboys won their title there too? Many apologies, I'll never
>cast aspersions on the universal popularity of your sports again. 8-)

No, I'm telling you that the Olympic basketball team, with several minor
exceptions, won their titles in a world competition.  (Read what I write,
not what you think I write....)

'Saw
>>>>>

Fair enough then, no arguments from this end. I was only really having a go at
the way domestic leagues in the States are called World Championships. 8-) I
wouldn't debate for a second that you're not by far and away the best at
Basketball, baseball, etc. Even I'm not that stupid.

Mike

>Fair enough then, no arguments from this end. I was only really having a go at
>the way domestic leagues in the States are called World Championships. 8-) I
>wouldn't debate for a second that you're not by far and away the best at
>Basketball, baseball, etc. Even I'm not that stupid.

Yeah, I know Mike, I was just bustin' yer stones.... (or do they call them
bullocks over there?  8^))

'Saw

and hockey is called the Stanley Cup champion, not world.

would be real interesting to see how the NHL champ would fare 
in the Olympics.

The Crazy Met

re: .352

which game was it that Maradona scored by hitting the ball with
his hand?

The Crazy Met

    
> which game was it that Maradona scored by hitting the ball with
> his hand?
    
    Believe it was the final, against West Germany...
    
    glenn
    

I thought that the final was Germany 1-nil, on the basis of a late
penalty shot award to the Germans.

Are we talking about the last WC final?


'Saw

    
> Are we talking about the last WC final?
    
    No, 1986, when Argentina won.  But the Maradona goal might not have
    been in the final; I remember it but not exactly when...
    
    glenn
    

Oh, okay.


Argentina sucks....8^)

hmm, I thought it might have been in the semis against England(?)

The Crazy Met

It was in a quarter final against England. He claimed afterwards that the goal
was scored partyly by his head and partly by the "hand of God", and it has
forever after been known as the "hand of God" incident. Forgiving as we are, the
English have loathed and despised evil Diego ever since. 8-)

Most of us choose to ignore the fact that he later scored a goal that involved
him beating all of our defenders twice before smashing it past our goalkeeper,
and so Argentina would have won anyway.

mike

Article: 18221
From: [email protected] (AP)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.misc,clari.world.africa
Subject: Algeria Soccer Referee Killed
Date: Wed, 18 May 94 7:30:16 PDT
 
	ALGIERS, Algeria (AP) -- A soccer referee was killed when a
player punched him in the temple after being expelled from a game,
Algerian radio reported.
	The radio report Wednesday said Nourredine Terkhi was killed
instantly when Ain Boudinar player Mohamed Korti struck him in the
temple after receiving a red card for insulting the referee in the
75th minute of Monday's game with Stidia.
	The match was canceled.
	Police were investigating the incident.

    That just might warrant a suspension.
    
    JaKe
    

So my irrelevant note gets moved but Heiser's stays over in 21.?

Hey, mods, if'n you're gonna move one move the other. Miami aint in no
ACC.

TTom

    Knicks and Rangers' success is somewhat overshadowing World Cup hype.
    Italian team has arrived,practicing in secrecy with HEAVY security in
    NJ burbs. Greek team had valuables pilfered while playing in Long
    Island. Saudis are also here as well as Irish. 
    
    Any hype in New england?

	About the only hype I've seen so far is one of the Sportscasters
pretending to be the pink panther. In trying to get a glimpse of
Diego Maradonna of Argentina. They are practicing at Brandeis University,
the place is sealed off to EVERYBODY. He was trying to get a picture
of Maradonna. He ended up going up in a helicopter and took footage of
Argentina practicing from about a mile up. A couple of more teams are
arriving in the next couple of days, with security extremely tight.
	The big local news for the Marlboro/Hudson area is that Mike Burns
of Marlboro. Made the final cut for the U.S. World Cup team. Mike has been
starting at midfield for the U.S. Mike is the first player every in
U.S. history to accomplish the following. He was on the U.S. 16 and under
amateur team, U.S. 20 and under amateur team, U.S. Olympic team, and now the
U.S. World Cup team.

Ron

    It's probably bigger news in NJ ,because 5 of the 22 are from NJ:
    Goalie Tony Meola,and Midfielders Tab Ramos,Claudio Reyna,Alaexei Lalas 
    and John Harkes.
    
    Did anyone catch the nightline earlier this week about the World Cup.
    

Well, one good thing is that I believe the games are being carried without
commercial interruption.  I know for years since this thing was announced
the Europeans have been pissing and moaning about our TV coverage of
the World Cup, certain that they will miss something crucial during
a commercial.

Mardonna?  He's the Mike Greenwell of soccer -- highly overrated with a big
ego....;^)


Meola is playing for the US?  I hadn't seen him in any of the prep games....


'Saw

Nightline?? Letsee it conflicts with SportsCenter,StarTrek(least up here),
guess I missed it.

The Crazy Met

    	Personally I wish they would replay the World Cup games on late
    night television so that if I have any trouble sleeping...
    
    				  /Don

    re .383
    
    Because by that time, all the baseball games are over, right ?

Great weekend if you like soccer.

I didn't see any of Friday's games, but I guess the defending champs had
their hands full with Bolivia until their keeper screwed up.  I think it
was the ever-present Jurgen Klinnsman who got the goal.

South Korea put on a pretty intense display netting two goals in the final
six minutes to tie Spain, 2-2.  Must've have been something to see.

On Saturday morning, I took a break from all the heat and watched soccer
history -- the first indoor World Cup game from the Silverdome.  Those
folks from Michigan State did a bangup job with the grass inside there.
I just wish the Americans could have done a bangup job against the Swiss.

Instead, they squandered a golden opportunity to pick up 3 points for
a win, giving up a poor goal on a direct free kick.  Meola was out
of position, the shot paralyzed him and fell softly into the American
goal in the 39th minute.  However, in the 45th minute, Eric Wynalda
made one of the best goals I've ever seen.

The Americans had a direct free at the top of the box, and Wynalda
shot over the wall for the top corner of the net.  His kick was like
an Aaron Sele curve ball -- straight as an arrow till it was past the
keeper's outstretched hand, and then it just dipped into the net.
The Americans salvaged a point in the hotbox in Detroit....


In other action, Ireland upset the vaunted Italian team, shutting down
the over-hyped (IMO) Roberto Baggio (hey, get a real haircut) and winning
1-nil on a goal by Ray Houghton (who used to play for the Liverpool
Reds, thank you very much).  Late in the game, The Great Aldo, John
Aldridge, appeared briefly, and I could well feel what his 35 year old
legs felt like in the heat.

Romania beat the Columbians -- who were more or less favored to win I
assume, 3-1.  

Yesterday, the Belgium beat Morroco 1-nil on a beautiful header late
in the first half, but the Morrocans had NY Rangers Game 6 disease as they
collect the prize for most posts in a half in the second half of the
game.


The Norwegians beat the Mexicans 2-nil(?) on a late goal.  It was a contrast
in styles.  The shorter, lighter Mexican team prefer a passing, finesse
game, while the taller, heavier Scandanavians use a long ball, quick strike
philosophy.  The Hungarian refs did his best to castrate the Norwegian
attack, calling many non-existent fouls as the taller Norwegians went
up to head balls on net.

One matchup in particular featured the 6'4" Flo opposed by a 5'10'
Mexican defender.  Flo was continually called for pushing off when it
was clear from the replay he just had a 6" height advanatage that translated
into aobut a 2' difference in vertical leap.

The Norwegians prevailed however.....


The final match yesterday was on ESPN2, which I don't get, so I turned
on Univision and watched it in Spanish.  What a rush.  I don't know much
Spanish, but I followed the game pretty well: Sweden vs. Cameroon.

The game ended in a 2-2 draw, but the fun part was listening to those
Spanish announcers pronounce the Swedish names.....



Games today feature Brazil vs Russia......


'Saw

    
    
    
    BORRRRRRRRINGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

    Well if it's boring go an read something else, smarta$$.

>                  -< I'd rather watch intramural Kickball... >-

So.  Don't watch then.  If it's boring, and you don't like it, don't
watch it.  No one is making you watch it.  It's not like I'm at your
house with my Python cocked at your temple making you watch it.

I find basketball pretty boring, so I don't watch it, and don't complain
about it much.

I've liked soccer ever since I was little and they used to play a
5-3-2 (which they haven't played in years), so I watch the World Cup.
I worked six months in France and while you see precious little baseball,
hoops, American football or hockey, you see lots of soccer, rugby, road
rallying (cool stuff) and auto and bike racing.  So you get used to
it....


'Saw

    
    I only caught the second half, but I doubt that anyone who had been in
    attendance at the Ireland-Italy game could have come away calling it
    "boring"...
    
    glenn
    

    
    
        I watched parts of the Ireland game. Parts of the Columbia game, I
    tried going in with an open mind, but there is just too much back
    passing and passing to your own goalie. I suppose if there were more
    corner kicks and free kicks it would be a little more exciting but I
    found myself switching over to Bewitched. :-)
    
    
    Chap

    	I've enjoyed the WC immensely.
    
    	I used to get German soccer on Sunday morning. I'd tape it
    	to watch after church. No longer on, so not much soccer left
    	to see.
    
    	I amazed at what those folks can do with their feet and a ball.
    
    	Scott

>        I watched parts of the Ireland game. Parts of the Columbia game, I
>    tried going in with an open mind, but there is just too much back
>    passing and passing to your own goalie. I suppose if there were more
>    corner kicks and free kicks it would be a little more exciting but I
>    found myself switching over to Bewitched. :-)
    
The only team that has backpassed to their goalie with any regularity
were the Irish.  Under the circumstances (ie, their offensive philsophy
and their opponent) it was warranted.

A lot of times if something doesn't open up at midfield, they shunt it
to the defenders to try to let the midfielders create some space or
rush up the wings.   That is very similar to what a lot of hockey teams 
do in passing back to their defensemen to reset the rush.


The Norway-Mexico game abounded with corners, which the Norwegians with
their great height advantage should have capitalized on, save for the
ref who nullfied a great deal of it with bogus foul calls...


If you want to see flashes of offense, watch a team like Norway or
Sweden who live on the long-bomb, switch-fields passing.  That creates
a lot of offensive opportunity.....


Actually, Columbia-USA on Wednesday should be a good game, but the Columbians
will win.....


'Saw

>    	I used to get German soccer on Sunday morning. I'd tape it
>    	to watch after church. No longer on, so not much soccer left
>    	to see.
    

Prime Sports Network (SportsChannel out here in CT) show an hour
long highlight program of English Premier League during the season.
I catch it Saturday mornings.....


'Saw

    
    re .390:
     	    Having been only a short time back from Hudson I can 
    understand your philosophy on soccer - My brain would turn to
    stagnant shit too if I watched bewitched an the other 95% of US
    tv which never makes it over here (thank god).
    Davie.

Well despite all my misgivings, I've really enjoyed USA 94 so far. The best bit
was Diana Ross messing up the penalty. 8-) 8-)

Norway won 1-0, not 2. How are they being marketed over there? They are
universally hated in England. They have a reputation for playing defensive,
kick-and-run football, even in friendlies which count for nothing, so I doubt
they'll impress the watching millions. I hope that Ireland and Italy both
marmalise them. Mind you. that's obviously just sour grapes because they stopped
us qualifying.

I stayed up to watch Cameroon-Sweden (5 hours sleep last night) and got many
laughs out of the English commentators saying how poor the goalkeepers have been
so far in all the games. Meola was a case in point. Me and my housemate sat
watching the game and when the free kick was taken we both noticed that Meola
was out of position. The whole world could see it, but not Tony. 8-) Stunning
free kick from Wynalda, which is probably the best goal so far. Wegerle was
rubbish; no big shocks there though. I think the draw with Switzerland is very
bad news for the US's hopes of progressing because they were definitely the
weakest team in the group.

Can't wait for the Brazil game tonight. Hopefully they'll turn on the style and
win some more converts. The World Cup's never as enjoyable when Brazil aren't
doing well.

mike

From Mosaic and www.worldcup.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

June 20, 1994

      Brazil vs Russia   

      Netherlands vs Saudi Arabia 



Results and Standings

Table of Contents

   First Stage Group Standings 
   Previous Match Results 



First Stage Group Standings

 
    Group A 

 Country          W    L   T   GF   GA   PTS  Game Date-Opponent

 Romania          1    0   0    3    1    3   6/18-COL,6/22-SUI,6/26-USA
 Switzerland      0    0   1    1    1    1   6/18-USA,6/22-ROM,6/26-COL
 United States    0    0   1    1    1    1   6/18-SUI,6/22-COL,6/26-ROM
 Colombia         0    1   0    1    3    0   6/18-ROM,6/22-USA,6/26-SUI



 
    Group B 

 Country          W    L   T   GF   GA   PTS  Game Date-Opponent

 Brazil           0    0   0    0    0    0   6/20-RUS,6/24-CMR,6/28-SWE
 Russia           0    0   0    0    0    0   6/20-BRA,6/24-SWE,6/28-CMR
 Cameroon         0    0   1    2    2    1   6/19-SWE,6/24-BRA,6/28-RUS
 Sweden           0    0   1    2    2    1   6/19-CMR,6/24-RUS,6/28-BRA




 
    Group C 

 Country          W    L   T   GF   GA   PTS  Game Date-Opponent

 Germany          1    0   0    1    0    3   6/17-BOL,6/21-ESP,6/27-KOR
 Spain            0    0   1    2    2    1   6/17-KOR,6/21-GER,6/27-BOL
 Korea Rep.       0    0   1    2    2    1   6/17-ESP,6/23-BOL,6/27-GER
 Bolivia          0    1   0    0    1    0   6/17-GER,6/23-KOR,6/27-ESP



 
    Group D 

 Country          W    L   T   GF   GA   PTS  Game Date-Opponent

 Argentina        0    0   0    0    0    0   6/21-GRE,6/25-NGA,6/30-BGR
 Greece           0    0   0    0    0    0   6/21-ARG,6/26-BGR,6/30-NGA
 Nigeria          0    0   0    0    0    0   6/21-BGR,6/25-ARG,6/30-GRE
 Bulgaria         0    0   0    0    0    0   6/21-NGA,6/26-GRE,6/30-ARG



 
    Group E 

 Country          W    L   T   GF   GA   PTS  Game Date-Opponent

 Ireland          1    0   0    1    0    3   6/18-ITA,6/24-MEX,6/28-NOR
 Norway           1    0   0    1    0    3   6/19-MEX,6/23-ITA,6/28-IRL
 Italy            0    1   0    0    1    0   6/18-IRL,6/23-NOR,6/28-MEX
 Mexico           0    1   0    0    1    0   6/19-NOR,6/24-IRL,6/28-ITA



 
    Group F 

 Country          W    L   T   GF   GA   PTS  Game Date-Oponent

 Belgium          1    0   0    1    0    3   6/19-MOR,6/25-HOL,6/29-KSA
 Netherlands      0    0   0    0    0    0   6/20-KSA,6/25-BEL,6/29-MOR
 Saudi Arabia     0    0   0    0    0    0   6/20-HOL,6/25-MOR,6/29-BEL
 Morocco          0    1   0    0    1    0   6/19-BEL,6/25-KSA,6/29-HOL


      

Copyright 1994 World Cup USA Los Angeles, CA USA. All rights reserved. 

    Where's Aldo?
    

with goal scoring being so tough, I wonder why more people don't imply a
Bruins' style offense and kick the ball in from further out and hope for
a rebound. Seems to me everyone tries to get it too far in to the zone only
to twarted by a defender....

mike

>Norway won 1-0, not 2. How are they being marketed over there? They are
>universally hated in England. They have a reputation for playing defensive,
>kick-and-run football, even in friendlies which count for nothing, so I doubt
>they'll impress the watching millions. I hope that Ireland and Italy both
>marmalise them. Mind you. that's obviously just sour grapes because they stopped
>us qualifying.

Yes, it was 1-nil, I got mixed up....

Their defense was good, but it seemed they tried to get their offense going
with the headers and stuff and got shut down by the ref....



>I stayed up to watch Cameroon-Sweden (5 hours sleep last night) and got many
>laughs out of the English commentators saying how poor the goalkeepers have been
>so far in all the games. 

That was the one I saw in Spanish, so I have no idea what they talked about.
8^)




>Meola was a case in point. Me and my housemate sat
>watching the game and when the free kick was taken we both noticed that Meola
>was out of position. The whole world could see it, but not Tony. 8-) Stunning
>free kick from Wynalda, which is probably the best goal so far. Wegerle was
>rubbish; no big shocks there though. I think the draw with Switzerland is very
>bad news for the US's hopes of progressing because they were definitely the
>weakest team in the group.

Agreed.  Meola so badly misplayed that shot.  I used to play a bit of
goal a long, long time ago, and I couldn't believe how poorly he was 
positioned to begin with.   I always felt that the wall is there for a 
reason, and that it take a Wynalda like shot to beat the wall, and if that's
the shot they make, well, hell, they deserve the goal.  But to be beat on 
the side where the wall is open, and where you're supposed to have your
poofta-little-pony-tailed-ass planted, that's horrendous.

(Tony, lose the pony-tail and let's play some position, eh?)

Wynalda's goal was one of the prettiest I've ever seen....


The draw with the Swiss was the death knell, no doubt about it.  I know
you probably didn't see Meola's comments after the game, but he seemed
perfectly willing to accept the draw.  Well, consider it was his total
blunder that caused it, he should have been harder on himself.

Look for the USA to lose big to Columbia (4-1 I predict) and to draw
Romania, and go out in the first round with two points.  The US Sports
media will hail it as a successful World Cup, because they got two points,
but personally, I think they could have, and SHOULD have advanced out of
this round....




>Can't wait for the Brazil game tonight. Hopefully they'll turn on the style and
>win some more converts. The World Cup's never as enjoyable when Brazil aren't
>doing well.

I'm not a Brazil fan, never have been.  I'd rather see the Germans win
it again....8^)


'Saw

    Cameroon-Sweden was on "the deuce" live...
    

>    Cameroon-Sweden was on "the deuce" live...

I dont' get the deuce.

But I love those spanish announcers!   

	�GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLL!  �GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLL!




The Great Aldo figured in Houghton's marvelous goal against the dreaded
and much-hated-by-the-Chainsaw Azurri.   The Italian keeper heard one
of the press behind the net say

	"I think they're warming up The Great Aldo"


and his knees started to shake.  So frozen in place was he, that Houghton's
deft little kick went right over him.....


Late in the game, the Great Aldo took the field.  In that heat, I knew
what those 35 year old legs felt like -- the aches, the pains, the rubbery
weakness.  But he proudly took the field and his opponents quaked in fear....


Aldo!  Aldo!  Aldo!


One can only wish that the Great Ian Rush had Irish Grandparents so that
once again I could see my two favorites on the field at the same time.....



'Saw
    

   > We had But I love those spanish announcers!   

   >	�GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLL!  �GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLL!
    
    
    We set the tv to last channel and watched  the games.  If there was a
    corner kick or a score, we flipped to Univision so we can hear the call
    and then back to American TV for the replay and explanation...
    

    
�    We set the tv to last channel and watched  the games.  If there was a
�    corner kick or a score, we flipped to Univision so we can hear the call
�    and then back to American TV for the replay and explanation...
    
    I do the same thing. The best call was Wynalda's goal. They do a whole
    Budweiser thing entitled GOL or something like that. Russia-Brazil
    today should be a good one.
    
    'Saw-I used to have a listing of key terms to help you watch a game on
    Univision. A few quick Spanish terms:
    
    Pelota-Ball
    Cabeza-Head
    Tino Escino-Corner Kick
    Tino libero-Free kick
    Arbitro-referee
    Equipo-team
    GOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!- Ball in net

    
    
    other terms:
    
    muchos owee		  kick to shin
    
    
    Burpee Y Dribblos     Bad Wurst at the Rose Bowl.
    
    
    cajones inflamme      kick to filliberts(tm) (international spelling.) 
    			  After all, this IS the World Cup
    
    
    Skullsa Y Airborn     Literal Header
    
    
    El blinko del goalo   Romanian method of scoring.
    

>    'Saw-I used to have a listing of key terms to help you watch a game on
>    Univision. A few quick Spanish terms:
>    
>    Pelota-Ball
>    Cabeza-Head
>    Tino Escino-Corner Kick
>    Tino libero-Free kick
>    Arbitro-referee
>    Equipo-team
>    GOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!- Ball in net


Thanks!

A couple I knew (pelota, equipo) and I figured out tino escino last night.

I could also pick out all the team names from the teams in the Bundesliga
or the Italian league where a lot of those players play....



I think Wynalda has the goal of the Cup so far.  He said something interesting
in an interview too.  He said in basketball, you score 38 points in a game
and that's really, really a good thing.  He said scoring a goal in a
soccer game, because of the difficulty of the thing, is like those 38 points
all wrapped up in to one small moment...

Hell, his goal was like a 60 point game......


'saw

I don't know if I mentioned this, but if any of you have Mosaic or
a WWW browser, there's a page out there for the World Cup.

It's http://www.worldcup.com


It's horrendously SLOW, but you can pull up results with it...

It's brought to you by Sprint, EDS, and Sun I think....  (no wonder it's
slow 8^))


'Saw

Only the Summer Olympics approaches the World Cup as a global
sporting event. Great entertainment.

The game of weekend as definitely Ireland-Italy, with Norway-
Mexico a close second. Brazil and Nederlands both play today,
my personal favorites....

My 17-year-old daughter was *very* impressed with the looks 
of the players - particularly the Swede with the blonde dreads...
she's used to ugly, scarred, toothless hockey players....

josh  

    Estados Unidos = USA...
    

    Unfortunately for Italy, Ireland got an early goal and took the air out
    of the ball for the remaining 78 minutes.  It was similar to a four
    corner offnese in basketball without having to ever shoot the ball. 
    this took all the flair out of the match, and unfortunately for the
    Italians, they never felt a sense of urgency until Massaro came on as a
    sub in the final minutesd.  Then they mounted a semblance of an attack,
    but it was too little, too late.
    
    I greatly enjoyed watching Morocco (who were unlucky to lose 1-0), the
    2nd half of Spain-South Korea, Romania-Columbia, and Sweden-Camaroon.
    The African teams play an exciting brand of soccer, and their skill
    level is surprisingly high.  I look for all three (Nigeria is the
    third) to advance.
    
    NAZZ

    Why is that so surprising?  Cameroon did well last time?
    

I'm going to see Nigeria on Saturday, and root especially hard to them
to beat Mr. Toot and Company....


Ireland shut down Baggio et al....  It was kind of cool.  I saw the
Irish against Portugal two years ago and what a game that one was.....


'saw

    Geez Nazz, you must reeely be down on baseball if watching "4-corners"
    soccer is better.  
    
    Haw!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Of course, watching curling is preferable to watching any sport that
    involves the Heels.
    
    HTH
    
    NAZZ

I'm confused about the tournament rules. Can anybody 'splain
how it works? 

What I think I know:

Round 1: 8 groups of 4 teams. 3 pts - win, 1 pt - draw. Top
2 from each group plus 4 of 8 third place teams go to round
2.

That's it. Do points get carried forward? How does Round 2
work? What happens after that? Anybody?

josh 

    Small nit to what you said in the previous note - there are only six
    groups.  The top four third place finishers also advance.  Then teams
    are seeded based on there results in the preliminary rounds, and a
    straight single elimination draw is set up.  The round of 16, the
    quarterfinals, seminfinals, and championship.
    
    NAZZ

    
    
       So its kind of like the Basketball and Hockey playoffs you guys
    bitch so much about right? More than half of the teams that start
    advance to the second rd??????
    
    
    Chappy

>    bitch so much about right? More than half of the teams that start
>    advance to the second rd??????
    
Not really, because you have to look at how many teams actually started.

Each team in the "finals", which is what this tournament is properly
called, I guess, had to face a qualification tournament in their geographic
area.....


Lots and lots of teams fought for these final 24 slots.  If 16 advance,
there's no big deal there......  Percentage wise of all the teams that
started out over a year ago, it's minute.....


'Saw

Talked with Mike Leary:

	quote:

		Soccer is beauty in motion.

	unquote:


'Saw

> Lots and lots of teams fought for these final 24 slots.  If 16 advance,
> there's no big deal there......  Percentage wise of all the teams that
> started out over a year ago, it's minute.....
    
    It does seem like it would make more sense to use the more
    comprehensive round-robin stage to cut down to 8 teams, with just
    winners and the couple very best runners-up advancing... but the way 
    they do it creates more games, and more of the kind of "excitement" 
    that only single-elimination sudden death games can bring.  The World 
    Cup is certainly not immune to sporting hype...
    
    glenn
    

>    It does seem like it would make more sense to use the more
>    comprehensive round-robin stage to cut down to 8 teams, with just
>    winners and the couple very best runners-up advancing... but the way 
>    they do it creates more games, and more of the kind of "excitement" 
>    that only single-elimination sudden death games can bring.  The World 
>    Cup is certainly not immune to sporting hype...
    
Yeah, but don't forget that FIFA is heavily influenced by many countries
and this format is probably the best compromise.

In a way, it makes it more exciting -- you have to play your very best
because you can still make it even if you don't finish top two....


Talk about hype, you should see the interest and reaction to the
World Cup Draw once they know all the qualifiers, and have to group them.



'Saw    

    Next time they go to 32... so 32 to 16 is more natural...
    

  >  straight single elimination draw is set up.  The round of 16, the
  >  quarterfinals, seminfinals, and championship.

Perfect, I like it. The round-robin format minimizes the chances of an
inferior team advancing due to a lucky day, and the final 16 should be
a straight elimination, no excuses.

You Yanks can view soccer as slow-motion hockey with more guys. The flow 
is very similar, but with virtually no substitutes pace and conditioning
become huge factors. It's like a cross between hockey and chess.

josh

    ... with no blue line...
    

  >  ... with no blue line...

Actually the blue line is constantly moving.

josh

    Any update on the game this afternoon?
    

>    Any update on the game this afternoon?

A little late, and I didn't see much of either game, but  Brazil took
Russia 2-nil and the Netherlands took Saudi Arabia 2-1.



    

          <<< Note 18.426 by CAMONE::WAY "Real men use iron sights" >>>


|A little late, and I didn't see much of either game, but  Brazil took
|Russia 2-nil and the Netherlands took Saudi Arabia 2-1.

	Why is it in soccer a score of "0" is called nil, but in most (all?)
	other sports it's "0"?

	Kevin


    

>	Why is it in soccer a score of "0" is called nil, but in most (all?)
>	other sports it's "0"?

Just a habit I picked up from watching a lot of British announcers.

I've heard them do it with rugby also.


'Saw

    

    >           <<< Note 18.424 by VAOP28::Rice "It can't happen here" >>>
    >                     -< Its' there, but you can't see it. >-
    >
    >  >  ... with no blue line...
    >
    >Actually the blue line is constantly moving.
    >
    >josh
    
    Could you explain this one - most of soccer/football is self evident
    but figuring out offsides befuddles me
    

  I saw some of the World Cup action over the weekend. From what I saw, it
appears that soccer and hockey are enough alike so that if you understand one,
you can understand the other. 

  Even though the games I saw were 1-1 and 1-0, they were pretty exciting. It's
weird the way that the players don't know when the game is going to end. I was
watching the Italy Ireland upset in which Ireland had a 1-0 lead when regulation
time seemed to run out but because "injury time" was added no one knew how long
they would have to play. Italy kept threatening right down to the end. Even the
announcers seemed to feel that a lot of time was added. The clock shown on TV
had over 3 minutes when the final whistle blew. 

  Should be fun, and I hope it catches on,
  George 

Unless my memory has faded, no offensive player may preceed all defensive 
players to receive a pass.  In essence, if a player breaks into the clear,
it is because he has dribbled by all defenders.

HIR  (hope I'm right)

=Bob=

  I saw a rather complicated description of off sides in the paper which I
didn't completely understand but one thing was good for a chuckle. It seems
that the official can rule in certain circumstances that a play is not off
sides if it is determined that a player was not trying to interfere with the
other team. 

  But as one coach pointed out, if he is not trying to interfere with the other
team, what is he doing out there?

  George

Basically, offsides depends entirely on where the player who will receive
the pass is WHEN THE PASS IS MADE.

The "receiver" must have at least TWO defenders, including the goalie,
between him and the goal, WHEN THE PASS IS MADE.  That means that he
cannot be EVEN with the second defender.

As soon as the ball is kicked, he can sprint like hell and get past that
defender and receive the ball and still be onsides.


Now, the "interferring" deal is this.  Let's say play is confined to the
left side of the field, and the midfielder makes a pass up the left wing
to a breaking player.   If there's a player from his team on the far
right side of the field who's in an offside position, he's deemed out of the
play and chances are the flag doesn't go up.   If that player is near the
center though, chances are it does go up.


There's no offsides on corner kicks or thrown ins...


'Saw


PS  They might have changed the rule to allow the offensive player to
    be EVEN with that second defender, but I'm not sure.....

PS  They might have changed the rule to allow the offensive player to
    be EVEN with that second defender, but I'm not sure.....


Yep, they have. FIFA did this at the beginning of last season I think. the rule
about interfering with play is highly suspect, and most referees tend to ignore
it, because an attacking player can hardly be doing anything other than
interfering.

The easiest thing to do is ignore the interfering bit, and just assume that an
attacking player is offside if there isn't at least one defender (not counting
the goalkeeper) either level with him or between him and the goal when a pass is
made in his general direction. And now a handy diagram:


	A1 
	   D	G	Neither of these attackers are offside. A2 can 
		O	pass to A1 because the defender is between A1 and
      A2	A	the goal.
		L


	A1 
	 D	G	Neither of these attackers are offside. A2 can 
		O	pass to A1 because the defender is level with A1.
      A2	A	
		L


	A1
      D1	G	If A2 passes to A1, A1 is offside.
		O
     A2		A
		L

Mike

  Sorry if this has been covered in the 400 something replies, but could
someone either go over the substitution rule or point me to the note where it
is covered? 

  In particular, when can you substitute?

  Are there any restrictions?

  Can players taken out go back in?

  What is the normal strategy for substitution?

  Are there specialists who are brought in at particular points in the game?

  George

>  In particular, when can you substitute?

Whenever you want.

>  Are there any restrictions?

Two subs per game.


>  Can players taken out go back in?

No.


>  What is the normal strategy for substitution?

Depends.  If you're down, you might want a striker with fresh legs.
If you're up, you might want a defender with fresh legs.


>  Are there specialists who are brought in at particular points in the game?

Not really.  It tends to fit the strategy outlined above....



If a player is injured, the player can received treatment on the sideines,
and go back in, as long as he hasn't been subbed for.  That means that
the team plays down a man.

If a player gets two yellow cards in a game, or one red card, he's ejected,
and the team plays down a man (someone else can fill in the suspension 
aspect).....


'Saw

    New one for this World Cup.
    
    A 3rd substitute may be made...the goalkeeper...
    
	Dezzz.

    I thought you could only substitute at a dead ball.. (hand ball, out
    of bounds...)
    

>    
>    A 3rd substitute may be made...the goalkeeper...
>    
Yeah, I forgot about that.....


'Saw

Walt,

You are correct about the dead ball.  I didn't interpret the question quite
so literally.

And I believe that the substitute has to be "allowed" by the ref.....

Tommy, any more soccer facts of the day?  I miss reading them.

>>  Even though the games I saw were 1-1 and 1-0, they were pretty exciting.

	This from a guy who thinks figure skating and ice dance is exciting.
	Quite a testimonial.



	billl

  The contempt pours in. Obviously I struck a raw nerve.

  So now are we going to hear about how soccer is not a sport?

  George

>>  The contempt pours in.

	One reply isn't exactly "pouring in".

	BTW, that clanking you are hearing is the sound of someone's
	chain being yanked, in case you've never heard it before.


	billl

    Why is Soccer so POPULAR everywhere except in USA
    
    Becasue USA has the BEST Basketball, Football, Baseball and Hockey
    teams so other contries need someone who can be competative and be
    called the best in the world :-)
    
    Its funny most of the people I personaly know who follow soccer have
    kids that play soccer ???  Why do more kids seem to make there soccer
    team then most other sports ???
    
    								MaB
    
    Great sport for Young Kids to learn the team concept and have some
    fun.... I'll proberbly get my daughter to play when she is old enough

    Anyone who can say baseball is more exciting than soccer...

    >So now are we going to hear about how soccer is not a sport?
    
    No one ever said it wasn't a sport.  It's just a sport for wuss'. 
    (apostrophetically correct, I believe)
    
    BOSS

    MaB,

    I don't think our level of skill has much to do with it.  Baseball is
    popular in Japan, Football is catching on in Europe, etc...

    I think you start to follow sports by virtue of what you played as a 
    kid, what you dad followed, etc.  There are still guys playing softball
    who think they are reliving the same kid fantasy they had when they
    were eleven.  (Unfortunately, once they get on the field, they act like
    they are eleven)

    I remember I had to choose between baseball and soccer, when I first
    picked up the game.  At the time I was a good baseball player.  It
    really broke my dads heart.  The guy told me over and over that I would
    be sorry about the soccer choice.  As I got better, we lobbied the
    school to form a varsity team, and I became captain (later to play in
    college), my dad ended up loving the game.

    We had three seasons, Fall, Spring, and summer.  In Kentucky, there was
    about 6 weeks between Fall and spring, so we played all year round.

    I guess as fathers start getting their kids to play, and kids who have
    grown up playing start their kids, the game will catch on just fine.

    One big thing soccer needs is a great marketing program, and U.S.A.
    teams to cheer for, some popular players that kids want to emulate.

    As basketball players and baseball players become more pampered and
    bigger babies, soccer has its opportunity to come through...

  The big problem for soccer in the U.S. is that there are no time outs for
commercials. No commercials, no TV. No TV, no popularity. If you'll notice, in
Europe it's sort of like college sports where there is a huge following of
regular fans that follow the teams around, sing songs, wave flags, crush each
other against fences and generally have as much fun being a mob as watching
the game.

   In the U.S. to be successful and draw the best athletes a sport needs big
TV bucks for big salaries and the fans tend to be a more general audience of
people that average only a few games per year and don't know each other as
well. 

  True there is TV for the World Cup but it's being covered by ABC and ESPN and
funded by sponsors as a one time special event / public service type of thing.
It would be very hard for them to make money on a regular basis unless the
rules were changed to allow for ads.

  George

>    
>    Becasue USA has the BEST Basketball, Football, Baseball and Hockey
>    teams so other contries need someone who can be competative and be
>    called the best in the world :-)
>    

Guess you've never spent much time outside of the US, eh MaB?

Basketball -- US is the best there, no doubt about it, but hoops has
nowhere near the popularity in any of the European countries I've spent
time in or have friends from.

Baseball.  Considered by most Europeans to be the epitome of boredom,
despite my explanations of the game within a game.  Only the Brits
seem mildly interested.

Football.  American Football is big in England, but we're still the
best.

Hockey.  Hardly can be called an American sport.  Brian Leetch was the
first American ever to win the Conn Smythe trophy, and probably 75%
of the players in the NHL are Canadian, with the rest made up of a mix
of European and American.   



Most countries in the world have been around longer than we have, and
soccer is an old, old, old game.  It probably made its way around the
world through the Colonization efforts of Britain, France and Spain.
The US hasn't been really big into the Colonization thing because most
of it was over before we came around (generally speaking).

Baseball is big in places where American service men were stationed in 
WWII, as an example....

That's most likely why so much of the world plays.



>    Its funny most of the people I personaly know who follow soccer have
>    kids that play soccer ???  Why do more kids seem to make there soccer
>    team then most other sports ???
    

My dad ran track, played baseball, and played soccer when he was in school.
He was a center-half and goalie, and in his senior year they were never
scored upon in 16 games.

Of the three sports he was into, I picked up baseball and soccer, and still
love both today.


One nice thing about soccer, as opposed to a lot of our sports in this
country is that size does not matter.



'SAw

  >  Hockey.  Hardly can be called an American sport.  Brian Leetch was
  >  thefirst American ever to win the Conn Smythe trophy, and probably
  >  75%of the players in the NHL are Canadian,
    
    Not meaning to turn this into Pick On 'saw Day, but, I think Canadians
    are considered Americans.  some cet pretty ticked when you tell them
    they aren't.
    
    brews

    I think another major problem (and maybe its been alluded to) is that
    there are no true hero's for U.S. fans to follow or cheer for. 
    Whenever I watch a game, half the fun for me is following a favorite
    player(s) or watching the progress of some up and coming guy. 
    e.g. I love college basketball, but put some game from an obscure 
    conference and I lose interest.  
    The U.S. team and players are mediocure, at best, and I'm
    always disappointed/frustrated/bored when I watch them. Until we
    develop some exciting/memorable players, its tough for the average guy
    to relate.
    
    By the way I am not a HUGE soccer fan,  but...
    
    I am getting very tired of these d**k-h**ds coming in from other notes
    in the conferences to talk about how soccer is not a sport, etc. It's
    pretty pathetic..  get a life guys
    
                                                         KB
    
    
                                                                           
                                                

>    As basketball players and baseball players become more pampered and
>    bigger babies, soccer has its opportunity to come through...
    
    I think generalized statements like this one demeaning athletes of 
    popular American sports do absolutely nothing for soccer's cause in 
    the eyes of many Americans, especially when I pick up the SI World 
    Cup preview issue and read about the number of teams rife with 
    dissension, great players like Ruud Gullit quitting their national 
    squads in disputes over playing time and playing styles, players
    refusing to come off the field when their coaches tell them to, 
    the Brazilian star Romario labelling national hero Pele "a retard", 
    the exploits of Maradona and those gracious Argentinians, etc., etc.
    
    I'll watch some of the games and even appreciate them, but I'm not
    going to buy into the myth that this is some kind of high-minded,
    spiritually superior undertaking.  I respect the talents of these 
    players like those in "our" sports, but this "God's rock stars" 
    business spewing forth from that ESPN yahoo is either pure crap, 
    or entirely accurate, depending on your opinion of rock stars... ;-)
    
    glenn
     

>    Not meaning to turn this into Pick On 'saw Day, but, I think Canadians
>    are considered Americans.  some cet pretty ticked when you tell them
>    they aren't.
    
Well, depends on how you use the term Americans.  If you want to use it
in the broadest sense, anyone from the tip of Argentina to the Arctic
Circle are "Americans".

But I'm using it in the narrow sense -- ie. US from the USA....born here
or holding US citizenship......


picky, picky, picky....8^)

    
    Well I figgerd I could pick on you and you wouldn't whine like the
    soccer fan in .452.
    
    brews

|    I think generalized statements like this one demeaning athletes of 
|    popular American sports do absolutely nothing for soccer's cause in 
|    the eyes of many Americans, especially when I pick up the SI World 
|    Cup preview issue and read about the number of teams rife with 
|    dissension, great players like Ruud Gullit quitting their national 
|    squads in disputes over playing time and playing styles, players
|    refusing to come off the field when their coaches tell them to, 
|    the Brazilian star Romario labelling national hero Pele "a retard", 
|    the exploits of Maradona and those gracious Argentinians, etc., etc.

Good points Glenn.

Gullit should be ashamed of himself.  Romario wishes he could carry
Pele's jock.....

Maradonna?  Toot toot toot...


Instead, for inspriration turn to The Great Aldo....playing for his
country on 35 year old legs, never giving up, stirring fear in the
heart of the opponents....

    
>    I'll watch some of the games and even appreciate them, but I'm not
>    going to buy into the myth that this is some kind of high-minded,
>    spiritually superior undertaking.  I respect the talents of these 
>    players like those in "our" sports, but this "God's rock stars" 
>    business spewing forth from that ESPN yahoo is either pure crap, 
>    or entirely accurate, depending on your opinion of rock stars... ;-)
    

Clearly that guy on EPSN is the World Cup's equivalent of Dennis Hopper.


Soccer in some countries (especially poorer countries) has been the
equivalent of our hoops in some respects, allowing dirt poor kids to
become wealthy stars and help their  parents out.

     

>    
>    Well I figgerd I could pick on you and you wouldn't whine like the
>    soccer fan in .452.
    
sniff, sniff...

you almost hurt my feelings -- I thought you were my friend.....


;^)

    
    >sniff, sniff...you almost hurt my feelings -- I thought you were my
    >friend.....
    
    There, now yo're acting like a soccer fan.  Where are your seats for the
    Michael Bolton concert?  
    
    BOSS 

> Clearly that guy on EPSN is the World Cup's equivalent of Dennis Hopper.
    
    My favorite part is when he queries with that butchered British accent, 
    "Can your Bo or Shaq stop this leather ball using nothing more than a 
    pair of gloves?"  Note that there's no mention of taking a 8-pound 
    fiberglass football helmet to the stomach... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    RE: .453 G_WAUGAMAN
    
    Whoa there big boy.  I did not say that soccer players were any more
    or less human than other athletes.  I was trying to say that soccer 
    can use the nastiness you see with the fighting in baseball and
    basketball, and the constant crying from most pro leagues as an
    opportunity to gain an advantage.  They would first have to learn
    the lessons of success, and run the league and market it to be
    better than the cry baby, pre-madonna, crap you see in every game,
    during every off season.

    That is not to say soccer players are above such mundane actions, it
    means that they might be able to capitalize on the actions of the
    yahoos making most pro games intolerable...

    The Bears of course, are exempt from such accusations...

    Chip_GSH_Bach

    One thing I don't like about soccer is all the dives these guys take
    to draw fouls and yellow cards.  But then, imagine if all these sissy
    boys who want to take the fighting out of hockey and don't like the
    way the Pistons and Knicks play hoop got their way.  Someone gets
    slapped going for a layup and you'd see people roll around and
    grimacing for minutes on end too.  Mason gets a yellow card and the
    Thorpe or Horry would jump back up and hit 2 free throws.    THAT would 
    suck...
    

    Just heard on KGME, in reference to popularity in U.S. regions:
    
    "Soccer is the most popular in the Bay Area."
    
    'nuff said,
    Mike

                                           
>    They would first have to learn
>    the lessons of success, and run the league and market it to be
>    better than the cry baby, pre-madonna, crap you see in every game,
>    during every off season.           
    
    And my point is that you can't legislate human behavior, especially
    where there is big money involved around players powerful enough to 
    call the shots, as is the case in the World Cup, pre- or even 
    post-Maradona... ;-)
    
    The sport will have to sell on its own merits, which are considerable
    but not necessarily superior in my mind, and not based on some
    imaginary virtues of the competitors...
    
    glenn
    

    I would guess Southern CA since the weather's nicer year round and
    there's more influence from other countries...
    

    I have an active 'career' in both (ice) hockey (in europe and in the
    US) and soccer of approx. 20 years. I only play hockey now, because
    soccer is the much rougher and more dangerous (injuries) sport.
    The injuries just aren't that 'visible' (blood, black eyes), same
    goes for the collisions, which look tough in hockey, but mostly are
    not, while every single 'bone-to-bone' clash in soccer (mostly not
    seen by the spectators) hurt like hell and in many cases provide for longer
    lasting injuries.
    It is o.k. to not like soccer, but this 'soccer is for wuss' argument
    is pure crap, made by people who definitely don't know what they are
    talking about.

    Any update on the Argentina-Greece game?
    

  From the little bit of soccer I saw this past weekend it looked pretty rough
and I can see what you mean when you talk about serious injuries. Players often
seem to do this move where they slide baseball style right in front of someone
running as fast as they can move and when their legs get tangled up you can
almost hear the **crack**. 

  Then the one that really looks painful is when the goalie kicks the ball
over half the length of the field and some guy comes up and smacks it back
with his head. And it's not a matter of just putting his head in the way, he
leans back and uses his head like a baseball bat (**WAP**). 

  Do guys ever get concussions doing that? 

  Ouch! 

  George 

    Well, you don't understand it. Then again, 'we' dont understand
    what is so exciting about some fat old pumkins in pyjamas standing around
    for hours doing mostly absolutely nothing (aka baseball). 
    
    All this doesn't mean that both cannot be boring in themselves.
    The preception is created by tradition, mostly.

    >      What's your poitn? Let go of your hangups, dude. It's 1994.
    
    What hangups?  I'm making fun of the wealthy, or is that non-PC now
    too...

    Wealthy?  SF?  I wouldn't have put the two together...
    

    why not?  That's a very wealthy region of the country.

                                   
>    Well, you don't understand it. Then again, 'we' dont understand
>    what is so exciting about some fat old pumkins in pyjamas standing around
>    for hours doing mostly absolutely nothing (aka baseball). 
    
    I do get a kick out of comments like these because as a big baseball
    fan, I do admit (as 'Saw expressed earlier) that I see many parallels
    between soccer and baseball in terms of the unseen strategy and the
    building of tension in the game, as opposed to non-stop end-to-end
    action of some other sports.  There's no denying that the constant 
    motion required in soccer necessitates better-conditioned athletes, 
    but to the untrained eye of a spectator it appears that most of the 
    players aren't really doing too much at any given time.  Likewise, 
    rest assured that the fielders in baseball are not just "standing 
    around doing absolutely nothing".  As in soccer, the game is won and 
    lost on the margins based on the advance positioning of the player 
    and then the execution of the play when called upon at the critical
    moment.  That can be boring, or it can be compelling, depending
    on the level of your interest... 
    
    glenn
       

    So is PalmSprings, Beverly Hills, Long Island, LasVegas and the Florida
    Keys.  What's the ranking there?

    Don't know, only relaying what was reported as the *most* popular area
    for soccer in the U.S.

    RE: HEISER  Hmmm.  I don't buy it.  Nice attempt at a bait job,
    but weak on the fine'.

    RE: Soccer being "boring" and "wimpy"...

    If our national past time is a measure of "excitement" I must take
    issue with the comments...

    After spending a few summers with fat, out of shape softballers,
    who spent five days a week running their batting averages, I can't
    imagine a life more boring than that...  ;-)

    Anyway...  I have to agree a few back.  Anyone that can argue that
    baseball is more "exciting" than soccer doesn't know much about 
    soccer.

    If you are watching the guy with the ball, or just following the ball,
    you are missing out on 80% of the game.  Just like Football, the camera
    and fans don't simply follow a tight shot of whoever has the ball, but
    the plays around the ball that are developing.  That is where the game
    is really at...

    Watching baseball (for example) Ball one.....   Ball two.... Foul
    ball...  Strike...  Foul ball...  Oh no bloop fly...  I mean, c'mon,
    I like baseball just fine, but there is no comparison.

    And compared to baseball, what is so "tough guy" rough about chasing a
    fly ball, stealing a base, or swinging?  The contact, sliding into
    home, happens to a soccer player every few minutes.

    When I played sweeper in high school and college, I had twenty hard
    collisions in a ninety minute game.  Two 45 minute halfs, all running,
    no "time outs", no "quarter breaks", no "TV time outs", no "inning
    change", etc.

    The reason I left baseball was because I got sick of a game where I got
    to "play" offense four times a game, and "defense" if the ball was hit
    my way, maybe ten times...

    I tend to agree with Pele'.  "Soccer is like chess at ninety miles an
    hour"...

    Chip_GSH_Bach

>    Anyway...  I have to agree a few back.  Anyone that can argue that
>    baseball is more "exciting" than soccer doesn't know much about 
>    soccer.
    
    Or, as you did with soccer, they simply played it and know it and 
    prefer it.  I played soccer, too, into high school, and while I
    especially enjoyed it as a participation sport where the play is an 
    end unto itself, it's not my #1 preference as a spectator sport-- the
    reason I appreciate the 1-0 game in baseball is exactly because it's
    the *exception*.  Basically, what your argument boils down to is that
    a whole bunch of action in soccer that produces a 1-0 game is only
    unappreciated due to an ignorance of the nuances in play away from the
    ball-- and then you demonstrate the same towards baseball by reducing
    it to "ball one... foul ball... ball two..."!   I'd have a lot more
    respect for your "intellectual" argument (any references to chess, 
    at any speed, are highly suspect and are to be immediately ridiculed) 
    if you'd just admit that you couldn't hit the curve ball...
    
    ;-) ;-) ;-)
    
    glenn
    

  >  Not meaning to turn this into Pick On 'saw Day, but, I think Canadians
  >  are considered Americans.  some cet pretty ticked when you tell them
  >  they aren't.

Them's fightin' words around here. The vast majority of Canadians are PROUD
not to be considered Americans. I won't go into all the reasons why.

re: Soccer - the sport

Soccer is the greatest SPORT in the world for several reasons:

- no props. a bunch of guys and ball is all you need. 
- size is not important. skill, co-ordination, conditioning is all you need.
  it is the BEST measure of a total athlete. and these guys are not freaks.
- great mental game. strategy is everything.
- no technology. the ref decides everything. clock runs out? who cares. 
  injury? get off the field. foul? you get written up. kinda like life.
- great approach to sportsmanship. if you get out of line or taunt you get
  the boot. no reason needs to be given. anthony mason's haircut, for
  instance, would be enough ;)
- great teamwork. 11 guys playing as one, 50 or 60 yards apart.
- simplicity. there are only a few rules.
- popularity. most popular game in the world.

And then there are some secondary reasons:

- the english announcers. they use words like "elegant", "valient", "duty", 
  "superb" and "brilliant. they actually have a vocabulary! refreshing.
- the haircuts. my daughters assure me that these are far and away the best
  looking athletes in the world. 
- the politics. global events can be affected by the results of a world cup
  match. 

There's more, but I'm supposed to be working ;)

josh

    
    
    Soccer will not succeed here in North America because there is not
    enough scoring for the average Amercian sports fan. No USA fan
    will put with 0-0 or 1-1 score. The average sports fan in the USA
    wants winners and losers not tied games. The average fan loves 
    a 90 yard touchdown run, the homerun, the three-pointer or the end
    to end rush in hockey. Until Alan Rothenberg and the world cup 
    committee learn how to sell the game here in the USA (which IMHO 
    they have done poorly), it will not be successful here.
    
    Craig
    
     

    Soccer won't take off for you guys as the TV rules the sport scene as
    someone else previously mentioned. Now call me an idealist if you wish
    but I believe the game comes first. If I want to watch TV then I switch
    on to a soap film etc. If I want to watch soccer, gridiron etc then I
    want to see the whole game. 
    			       In the UK we have 2 TV stations who play
    adverts but they are 15min apart on normal TV and not on at all when
    non stop sport games are televised. I'm a real sports fan but was even
    having difficulty handling the amount of adverts on your channels when
    I visited the US a couple of months ago. ( Watched ESPN & the deuce. )
    
    We all realise there are a need for sponsors in sport but when it comes
    down to stopping a sporting event for an ad break I think someone in
    the grand scheme of things has their priorities mixed up a little. If
    it meant that the game be butchered in order for it to be popular 
    Stateside then i'd rather see it fail miserably.
    
    If you guys came over here & watched an NFL game which had only about
    4 ad breaks ( & these outwith the game ) I think you'd realise how much
    better TV it is.
    		    Davie.

    My theory goes like this. 
    
    Problem with soccer is that there is no "progress". Unless a goal is
    scored, there are few minor victories that affect the future of the
    game. Guy makes a great play, gets the ball to midfield, but then the
    next player is tackled, the ball goes out of bounds, and we go the
    other way.
    
    Meanwhile, Starks hits a three. Akeem blocks an easy shot. MJ makes
    a steal and takes it for a basket the other way. All of these have
    tangible effects on the future of the game (This is more evident in
    basketball than any other sport - it appeals the most to people who
    like action)
    
    Football - A small victory like a first down affects who keeps the
    ball. And even if a TD/FG is not made, field position can swing by
    a drive being more than three-and-out, and this affects how the other
    team must start their drive (pinned at the 5 vs starting at midfield).
    
    Baseball - Runs are less prevalent here than points in FB/Hoops, but
    inside an inning, base hits, stolen bases, double plays, outs, and
    even strikes and balls radically affect the next play. The ball, foul,
    foul, pop-up argument advanced earlier falls apart when you know the
    game, as the count affects not only the pitch used, but also fielders
    positioning and what attention must be placed on the runner. I realize
    this example could be countered with some more knowledge of Soccer
    nuances, I simply haven't derived them yet. 
    
    Murph
    

 well I found a team to root for last night besides of course the USA, that
 team is Nigeria. I really liked the fact that they were so offense minded.
 80 minutes into the game with a 3 goal lead they were still attacking.
 I also thought that they were the quickest team I've seen so far. With the
 tie yesterday by Germany, they must be in trouble of repeating. Don't
 know who their next opponent is but if they loose, I'd assume they're
 out of it.........

 mike

>    Problem with soccer is that there is no "progress". Unless a goal is
>    scored, there are few minor victories that affect the future of the
>    game. Guy makes a great play, gets the ball to midfield, but then the
>    next player is tackled, the ball goes out of bounds, and we go the
>    other way.
>

Kind like hockey?

    
>    Meanwhile, Starks hits a three. Akeem blocks an easy shot. MJ makes
>    a steal and takes it for a basket the other way. All of these have
>    tangible effects on the future of the game (This is more evident in
>    basketball than any other sport - it appeals the most to people who
>    like action)

To me, basketball is one of the most boring sports around.  I can tune
into the last five minutes of a game and need not have watched the
previously 35 or 43 minutes...

    
'Saw

    
>  With the
>  tie yesterday by Germany, they must be in trouble of repeating. Don't
>  know who their next opponent is but if they loose, I'd assume they're
>  out of it.........                                                
    
    No, they won their first game with Bolivia, and the next one is with
    South Korea.  Remember, 16 of 24 teams move on...
    
    glenn
    

RE Brews:  

	I don't have seats for the Michael Bolton concert.  They offered
	me a job playing boards, but I don't like him, so I said no.....


Re Soccer in the bay area:

	The west coast has a high influx of folks from places elsewhere
	in the pacific.   Rugby teams from that area perenially contend
	for the national title, mainly because there's lots of Aussies
	and Kiwis there....


Re Soccer on the field:

	One thing you don't see much on TV, but see more in a live game,
	and learn if you've played the game, is that the play away from
	the ball is just as important as it is in hoops.   In soccer,
	if you're away from the ball you're trying to create space, and
	space is sometimes everything in the game.   The world class
	level players you're seeing now don't need much, just a tiny
	little bit, but away from the ball you still have to work to
	make opportunities....


Re soccer being boring:

	I have no problem with folks who find soccer boring, because I
	personally find basketball one of the stupidest boring games
	and annually fail to see how anyone could get caught up in
	the NBA playoffs.  I watched part of one game this season, and
	that becuse there was nothing else good on, and I was out
	of barium for an enema.  That game got interrupted by the
	Richard "OJ" Kimball story....


Re Rainer Forst:

	Hi Rainer, long time no talk....  How's it going?


'Saw

 thanks Glenn that's right. Braincramp had me think they tied the first one
 which would have left them with only 2 points and a miserable goals scored
 total. 

 mike

>  Then the one that really looks painful is when the goalie kicks the ball
>over half the length of the field and some guy comes up and smacks it back
>with his head. And it's not a matter of just putting his head in the way, he
>leans back and uses his head like a baseball bat (**WAP**). 
>
>  Do guys ever get concussions doing that? 


Doesn't hurt.  You hardly feel it.  If you do it right you can put all
kinds of "english" on the ball.  

Like any other sport, if you learn the fundamentals, you're okay.....

    
    
    	Yabbut earlier somebody (was it George?) wanted to know about
    the Greece - Argentina game.
    
    	Argentina won 4-zip.  Maradonna scored once and some other guy on
    the team had a hat-trick.
    
    hth
    
    I remain,
    thinking I might try to get interested
    Kev
    

    Germany is virtually assured of advancing to the second round, they've
    got 4 points already. I too liked the Nigerian team, although watching
    it on the Spanish channel I didn't know why the Bulgerian goal was
    disallowed... The Nigerians are VERY fast.
    
    Keith

The Bulgarians' goal as I understand was disallowed because it was supposed
to be an indirect kick which I believe means atleast two players from your
team, the guy putting the ball in play and a teammate must touch the ball
first before a shot can be attemped but I think if the goalie makes a mistake
and plays the ball then it would have counted. This is where some controversy
was arising last night night cause at first the Nigerian goalie went for the
ball before getting smart and not playing the ball. So the announcers on the
duece where wondering if he did indeed touch it...........

if I got the rules wrong please feel free to correct me.....

mike 

The Bulgarian goal was disallowed because it was an indirect free kick, i.e.
someone else has to touch it before you can score. If the goalie had got to it
and palmed it into the back of the net it would have been a goal, so he's lucky
he's not just a little bit better (if that makes sense). 8-)

Do you rate your chances against Colombia tonight, or is it this afternoon for
you?

Mike

  
    That Spanish-language channel "goooooooooooool" thing constantly being
    replayed on ESPN is getting old real fast.  It was more amusing in 1990
    when there were only a few goals scored in the entire tournament... ;-)
    
    I guess Foxboro was well short of a sell-out yesterday for Argentina-
    Greece.  Large numbers of tickets are constantly being returned, yet 
    at the same time over several tries starting way back last winter 
    I've either been rejected or unable to get through to purchase tickets 
    (granted, this was for the more popular Round-16 or Quarterfinal game).  
    I haven't tried all that hard, either, but there does seem to be quite
    a bit of disorganization around the ticket distribution, at least in
    Boston...
    
    glenn
    

Mike,

The Columbians play the USA early evening (19:30 our time).

I think the Columbians are going to put some hurting on us.

I don't want to get on Meola too badly, but his being totally out of position
will, I believe, be the sole cause of the USA not advancing.  A loss to
Columbia and perhaps a tie with Romania will most certainly leave the
USA to wallow around with one point.

I cannot believe that Meola is the best the USA can put in net.   He 
flunked out of the English league I believe (at least I haven't heard anything
about him in a long time), and I cannot believe how out of position he
was on that goal-that-shouldn't-have-been by the Swiss.....


Another disappointing Cup.   Well, I can still relish the wonderful
2-nil win over Eng-uh-lund last year 8^) 8^) 8^)


'Saw

>>>    I guess Foxboro was well short of a sell-out yesterday for Argentina-
>>>    Greece.  Large numbers of tickets are constantly being returned, yet 

 The place was jammed full.  If you are going by attendance figures 
 (vs. Patriot games), remember that they removed some seats in each corner, 
 and there is a large allocation for the press.  

 There were a few tickets available outide, but it looked to me like every one 
 of them must have sold. It was the most amazing crowd I have ever witnessed.
 
 If you can scoop a ticket for Saturday (Arg-Nig), do it.  You will not be 
 sorry.
 
 Clark

                                    
> The place was jammed full.  If you are going by attendance figures 
> (vs. Patriot games), remember that they removed some seats in each corner, 
> and there is a large allocation for the press.  
    
    I was going by a TV report I saw that said that tickets were available
    at the gate, and that the ever-ubiquitous scalpers were dumping them
    outside at half-price (you gotta love that; they deserve it).  So I
    guess the game did end up a sell-out, and at the same time those that 
    wanted to be there came away happy...
    
> If you can scoop a ticket for Saturday (Arg-Nig), do it.  You will not be 
> sorry.
    
    Thanks for the tip...
    
    glenn
    

    	The paper reported Foxboro as sold out. I also saw the mention of
    the goal disallowed due to it being of the indirect variety. At first
    I thought it was disallowed due to possible offsides, I don't remember
    from way back when to my high school soccer days, if there can be
    offsides on a kick...

    Frank Way,
    
    I'm doing o.k., as you might remeber I'm in hockey mostly. Why are
    you out of that, it seems? Because the Whalers suck?
    
    Talking about 'out of': I'm out of DEC in a few days, I turn to soccer
    only for WCs. I dont expect much from 'our' (german ) team this time.

>    I'm doing o.k., as you might remeber I'm in hockey mostly. Why are
>    you out of that, it seems? Because the Whalers suck?

Yep, I remember we talked quite a bit of hockey.  I went back to my 
first love, the Bruins, because the Whalers were suffering from DEC
disease (ie MISMANAGEMENT!).

    
>    Talking about 'out of': I'm out of DEC in a few days, I turn to soccer
>    only for WCs. I dont expect much from 'our' (german ) team this time.

That sucks.

Best of luck to you.  The German team didn't look as good as they normally
do against Spain yesterday, but I do love to watch them play.  Klinsmann
came close late though.....  I still hope they kick some butt!


Good luck in whatever you do after DEC!

frank

    Frank,
    
    DEC disease, eh?
    Well, your 2nd love didn't bring you much pleasure neither, I guess.
    Sutter could be in DEC (see above).
    
    From what you hear these days mother DEC will turn into a bunch of
    baby DECs, and who knows, I might show up in one of them sooner or
    later. Not in the immediate future, though.
    
    Best of luck,
    
    Rainer

>    DEC disease, eh?
>    Well, your 2nd love didn't bring you much pleasure neither, I guess.
>    Sutter could be in DEC (see above).

Yeah, they kept playing this real STIFF in goal  8^)


    
>    From what you hear these days mother DEC will turn into a bunch of
>    baby DECs, and who knows, I might show up in one of them sooner or
>    later. Not in the immediate future, though.
    
If Palmer has anything to do with them, they'll all die of mismanagement....

I have no idea where I'll be from one day to the next....8^)

    Baseball players conditioned? Or football linesmen and special team?
    
    Conditioning is the 1st measure of what an athlete is, not size.
    Guys who can bench press a lot are very often sorry excuses of an
    athlete.
    In that sense soccer players are near the top of team sports. Hockey
    is there, too.

    To say you dont Like basketball because the game is decide'd in the
    last few minutes YOU DONT KNOW THIS GAME... Yes teams can make a come
    back in the last 5 minutes.  If your opponent has played there starters
    from opening tip off to the 4rth qtr you may be able to take advantage
    of that... Forcing the ball inside against the opponents #1 guy who may
    have 4 fouls.. There's alot more strategy in basketball, and you have
    to be able to SCORE as well as play defense..
    
    In soccer you could get a lucky gaol right off the bat and if you play
    nothing but good defense the rest of the game you win.. Plus how long
    does it take to score 1goal (From what Ive seen a lLLLLOOONNGGG time).
    
    If you really find soccer more exciting the basketball How do YOU FEEL
    about Truck/Tractor Pulls :-) Now I know who they called to get ratings
    (Rankings) on the favorite sports in the US...
    
    								mab

Meola played a few times for Brighton (a crap nowhere team) but didn't get
anywhere and was dropped some time ago. Keller is better but I read somewhere
that he's had a bit of a tiff with the football authorities in the US. Meola is
poor, and I suspect that we'll all find out just how poor against Valderrama and
co. tonight. I would have wished you luck, but you mentioning last year's result
has ruined your chances. 8-)

I think Maradona is an unfair point of reference in any "footballer as athlete"
debate, given that every football reporter in the universe said before the World
Cup that he was too fat, too old, and too wasted to play this time. I know you
won't, but if you're ever at a complete loss for something to do, watch a
highlights vid of the 86 World Cup, and then dispute Maradona's status as a
sporting legend.

Mike

    All sports have there John Kruk's :-)
    
    You can Glide In Hockey you can stand around in baseball (ALOT)..
    And from watching soccer the players on the opposite side/end of
    the field from the ball do a little sitting around as well.
    
    So what has more movement Basketball/Football.. Obviously the Linemen
    dont have to be that athletic but dont put down all football player
    based on that, the QB/WR/RB/TE/SS/LB are moving almost constant during
    the play.. And in basketball (Other then the centers) move alot, id
    say the PG does the next least moving on every play but they alwasy
    seem to be in great shape..
    
    Again you always have the overweight slow player in every sport....
    
    Is the hardest thing in sports Hitting a 100+MPH fast ball ????
    But does that make them a great athlete ???
    
    								Mike

                                 
    Meola is only in goal for his athletism that sometimes produces flashes 
    of brilliance, as opposed to any great technical ability, no?  Perhaps 
    the US, as a big underdog, is rolling the dice on the side of raw talent.
    As an ignorant spectator from a third-rate soccer country I'd probably
    rather see that approach than a more conservative one...
    
    glenn
    

>
>    To say you dont Like basketball because the game is decide'd in the
>    last few minutes YOU DONT KNOW THIS GAME... Yes teams can make a come
>    back in the last 5 minutes.  If your opponent has played there starters
>    from opening tip off to the 4rth qtr you may be able to take advantage
>    of that... Forcing the ball inside against the opponents #1 guy who may
>    have 4 fouls.. There's alot more strategy in basketball, and you have
>    to be able to SCORE as well as play defense..
>    

I know the game.  I just don't like it.  Never have.  Everything you
say in that paragraph can apply to lots of different sports.


>    In soccer you could get a lucky gaol right off the bat and if you play
>    nothing but good defense the rest of the game you win.. Plus how long
>    does it take to score 1goal (From what Ive seen a lLLLLOOONNGGG time).

There's few lucky goals in soccer.  We've seen more bad goals in this
WC than I can remember.


>    If you really find soccer more exciting the basketball How do YOU FEEL
>    about Truck/Tractor Pulls :-) Now I know who they called to get ratings
>    (Rankings) on the favorite sports in the US...
    
I don't like Truck/Tractor pulls.  What does that have to do with anything?
How can you equate soccer with a truck and tractor pull?  What rogue synapse
do you have operating in your parietal lobe that would ever in a million
years connect and cause that comparison to be made?

I like soccer, I like rugby, both of which I've played, both of which
I know the strategy.  I've played some hoops, but just never really developed
a like for the game.   I watch the college game sometimes, but not a lot,
and the NBA is just a lot of hype and marketing.

That's my opinion.  I'm not bashing you for liking hoops.  More power to
you.   Just don't come in here and tell me I don't know what I'm talking
about because I don't like hoops.   


'Saw

    Well said,
    	      It's US citizens the calibre of yonder noter that makes our
    euro skin itch. We aren't even asking you to be a gentleman; just turn
    the volume knob down. Brash, loud, uninformed statements do more damage
    than good.
    		Davie who likes some sports & crucifies none he dislikes.

>    Well said,
>    	      It's US citizens the calibre of yonder noter that makes our
>    euro skin itch. We aren't even asking you to be a gentleman; just turn
>    the volume knob down. Brash, loud, uninformed statements do more damage
>    than good.
>    		Davie who likes some sports & crucifies none he dislikes.


I've spent some time across the pond, and I learned early on that being
a subtle American was the key to survival.  You can dress American, 
and you can be proud of being an American, but things are a helluva lot
easier if you're polite, curteous, and subtle to go along with it.

Haven't made it to Eng-uh-lund yet, but will someday and I'm thinking I'm 
going to have lots of folks to look up....


'Saw

    Soccer and baseball have one thing in common.  first let me mention
    that there truly is a lot of movement in baseball on every pitch: the
    outfielders for example have to break on everyball hit and backup plays
    at the bases, trying in each instance to economize movement as when a
    play finally occurs it will probably be decided by inches and when done
    right may decide the entire game.
    
    In soccer similarly a lot of the incidental movement does not achieve
    anything but has to be done right every time and when the critical play
    occurs those inches gained by doing it right each time are critical.

    	I certainly hope none of the Volvos or Saabs overheated in the
    Route 1 congestion yesterday...
    
    				  /Don

    Well fortunately i'm from Bonnie Scotland myself so i've alot of
    English people to look up too - preferably women :-)
    
    I'd expect most countrymen, whichever partof the world, to be proud of
    their heritage. But there are limits for those of us who like to be
    counted as part of the human culture in the 20th century.
    							     Davie.
    
    p.s. Most Scotsmen are nicer than me :-)

    
    Forget all you Europeans and European wannabes, MAirB isn't scoring 
    any points with many of his own kind by crapping on the national 
    pastime... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

>
>    Well fortunately i'm from Bonnie Scotland myself so i've alot of
>    English people to look up too - preferably women :-)
>    

Sorry Davie, but I'd forgotten you were from Scotland.  My father's side
of the family is from Scotland originally so I'm doubly ashamed.

I guess I should ask you: Rangers or Celtic?   8^)



I'm excited to go to the Nigeria-Argentina game.  While, given my absolute
choice I'd have liked to have seen either Ireland or Germany live, I'm
still very excited.


'Saw

    'Saw,
         i'm yer middle 'o the road kinda guy. Don't like Rangers or 
    Celtic. I like to see the smaller clubs do well. Development and
    all that.
    	     Re: Ngr v Arg. I envy you. This will be an exciting match.
    The Nigerians are the dark horses of the tourney & will surprise alot
    of people with their composure & flair. One of my favourite players
    is up front for Nigeria - Aamokache (sp). He plays for FC Brugges I
    think. Brilliant touch & the fastest i've seen. Would make a braw
    punt returner,
    		  Davie. 

    for you Europeans, a 100 MPH fastball = a 160.9344 KPH fastball

>         i'm yer middle 'o the road kinda guy. Don't like Rangers or 
>    Celtic. I like to see the smaller clubs do well. Development and
>    all that.

Ah.....


>    	     Re: Ngr v Arg. I envy you. This will be an exciting match.
>    The Nigerians are the dark horses of the tourney & will surprise alot
>    of people with their composure & flair. One of my favourite players
>    is up front for Nigeria - Aamokache (sp). He plays for FC Brugges I
>    think. Brilliant touch & the fastest i've seen. Would make a braw
>    punt returner,

Well, I was planning on supporting Nigeria at the match.  I don't like
Maradonna (don't like most folks who are stuck on themselves) and they
say that Nigeria has an explosive offense.

Gonna be a good day.  I'll be attending with Tom Hill, who used to frequent
this file, and Atlanta's Most Infamous Welshman, Andrew Wicks.  If you're
in the Football notesfile, you must at least know who Andrew is.....

Can't wait!

>>      And Glenn inadvertently mentioned a fact about a lot 
>>      American soccer fans - they're Europeans wanna-bes. They 


	And they pretend to be fine beer connie-sewers, too.  



	billl

    American beer tastes good (like lager). Only thing is I could get a
    buzz from my own pis$ quicker. The 'real ales' were totally stinking.
    It takes a while to make ale decent 'though.
    						Davie.
    
    p.s. I do like alot of US things :-)

>      
>      I'm having a real hard time picturing Saw playing any-
>      thing approximating basketball. 
>

Just try to clear my out from under the net.  I guarantee you'll bleed.  8^)

I've always played with big guys and it more resembles wrasslin underneath.

I'm not as good at hoops as I am at other things -- rugby, baseball, but
it's not like I won't play from time to time.


>      And Glenn inadvertently mentioned a fact about a lot 
>      American soccer fans - they're Europeans wanna-bes. They 
>      like to pretend that they're worldly and open-minded so 
>      they pretend that those British comedies on PBS really are 
>      funny and that soccer isn't boring.
>

I don't think so, not as far as I'm concerned.  There's a lot of British
comedy that I guess I just plain miss the point, because I don't think
a lot of it is funny.  I do like Monty Python.  (Trivia:  The Monty
Python theme was "The Liberty Bell March" by J.P. Sousa).

Soccer isn't boring -- to me.

'Saw
    

>
>	And they pretend to be fine beer connie-sewers, too.  
>

Who's pretending?

I've had lots and lots of different beers, some I like, some I hate.

I just don't tend to like beer with a lot of corn sweetner and rice added
to smooth out something that should be there anyway.

If I wanna piss around and have a good time, I'll drink MGD.  Hell, I
even bought a 6pak of Carling Black Label the other night, just for shits
and grins.

If I wanna sit down and enjoy a beer, I'll have something along the 
lines of a "Newcy Broon", a Bass, or something even heavier...


'Saw

    Columbia is talkin' some trash about the USA team, calling them a
    "bunch of amateurs."  They have a lifetime 7-1 record vs. the USA.

    Signing off 'till Monday nite but i'll make a prediction for Us v Col
    0 - 2.
    
    Enjoy/hate your soccer .
    
    Davie 

    im not crapping on soccer and I didnt compare soccer to tractor
    pulls One of those ragtag sports shows said soccer was rater 67th
    in the us and that was below truck/tractor pulls (I swear to god
    thats what they siad Ive never seen the list).
    
    But I just cant imaging WATCHING SOCCER to be more exciting then
    watching BASKETBALL (IMO).  I also cant get into watching baseball
    on TV Either... The only reason I can watch golf is that when one
    of them is hot they can hit a 2" ball 150-200yrds in the air and
    come down within a 10' area using a stick ????
    
    I'll ask again does anyone know if the list they were talking about
    does exist ? If so where does soccer fall on that list (USA Ranking
    on sports accross the country in terms of intrest ?).
    
    Maybe I dont watch enough soccer, but the few movies Ive seen with
    soccer always have exciting games :-)
    
    								MaB  

 better beer, legalize drug houses, carefree women, nude beaches, yeah
 I wanna be a European......

 ;^)

 mike

    US beats Columbia 2-1. Should be enough to advance to the next round.
    Supposed to be a huge upset.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    If the Swiss beat Columbia and the US ties against Romania, then 
    US team will be in 1st place in Group A. Boy, how'da like that now!
    Can anyone give a synopsis of the US-Columbia matchup. Thanks.
    
    Craig
    

    	In a nutshell, the US wouldn't allow Columbia to penetrate the
    center of the field near the US goal and the Columbians failed to try
    using the wings and crossing it in. The US defense played a great game
    in front of Meola. A few testers got through and Meola made some big
    saves, including one just before Columbia scored but he gave a rebound
    out front so he had no chance. Questionable offsides on the play where
    Lalas apparently scored. He looked onside, but Balboa at the top of the
    picture might have been offsides...  Balboa almost redeemed himself
    later on a spectacular athletic maneuver. On a looping deep corner kick
    he used a bicycle kick and nailed it just past the post to the
    amasement of just about everyone. What a game...
    
    Keith

    	Compared to the Colombian goalie, Meola looked like the best
    	in the world. He played very well. Only gaf was just after
    	the first US goal, on the shot that hit the top of the goal.
    	Meola lost his footing and went down.
    
    	Great game.
    
    	Scott

    I've been watching youth soccer for five years with casual interest,
    only because my kids play, and never really got into the "soccer is a
    great sport" debate.  But, that game last night between the US and
    Columbia was a thriller.  IMO, if the US can continue playing
    reasonably well, soccer could garner the interest of the casual
    sports fan, to go along with the multitude of Volvoheads that currently
    rant and rave about it.
    
    I've seen bicycle kicks before, but that kick by the guy that Keith
    mentioned in a previous note was highlight film material, even though it
    went inches wide. 
    
    					Steve

I was just too tired to stay up and watch the game so I've videoed it for later.
If Balboa's shot was as good as you say, the fact that he missed won't stop it
being repeated ad nauseum. Two of Pele's most famous moments were shots that
just missed. One a lob from the half way line and the other the most amazing
dummy body swerve. in both cases the shot missed but it was the epic endeavour
that appeals to the fan. Poetry. 8-)

Mike

    Excellent entertainment.  It always helps to have a rooting interest.
    And I guess you should never underrate the power of a homefield crowd,
    even in soccer-sedate America, because it was emotional and Colombia
    appeared almost completely disorganized and confused throughout.
    
    I guess we saw why Meola is in goal for the US.  Very solid if
    unspectacular game; he seemed to be making all the right reads and 
    several times, coming out on the run without hesitation, was just 
    able to beat a Colombian forward to the ball.  I'd also read in a WC 
    preview that the Colombian keeper Cordoba is supposed to be one of 
    the better ones in the game, often bailing out an undisciplined 
    defense.  Hard to believe that given his play over two games now.  He 
    was completely lost out there.  Valderrama was kept fairly quiet too...
    
    The second US goal, the only legit one, was finished off on a Cordoba
    screw-up but was nonetheless created by a beautiful end-to-end
    possession in which I don't believe the ball was ever lost.  This is
    not something the US is supposed to be good at, but they had it working
    on that goal.
    
    Perhaps Colombia's sloppy play, particularly on defense, was more
    responsible for this win than anything the US did, but given that
    Colombia is a team that some picked to win the whole thing, maybe the 
    US really is starting to catch up and is better than some of the rest 
    of the world thinks.  This may be all we'll see but at least it's 
    progress...
    
    glenn
    

    First Win in 44 Years ?  Have they ever made it to the 2nd round ?
    Im assuming theyve never won the whole thing :-)...
    
    Face it even if you dont like the sport you have to have intrest for
    2 reasons
    	1. Its being played on us soil
    	2. Usa is undeafeated
    
    								MaB

I saw most of the second half live, then saw the first on tape.....

First off, I was wrong, dead wrong with my prediction of a USA loss.



>    Excellent entertainment.  It always helps to have a rooting interest.
>    And I guess you should never underrate the power of a homefield crowd,
>    even in soccer-sedate America, because it was emotional and Colombia
>    appeared almost completely disorganized and confused throughout.

Excellent game for the US.
    

>    I guess we saw why Meola is in goal for the US.  Very solid if
>    unspectacular game; he seemed to be making all the right reads and 
>    several times, coming out on the run without hesitation, was just 
>    able to beat a Colombian forward to the ball.  I'd also read in a WC 
>    preview that the Colombian keeper Cordoba is supposed to be one of 
>    the better ones in the game, often bailing out an undisciplined 
>    defense.  Hard to believe that given his play over two games now.  He 
>    was completely lost out there.  Valderrama was kept fairly quiet too...
    
Okay, here's my 2�.

I've always thought a goalie, if he's doing his job right, isn't very
noticeable.   I should put Meola down more often, because last night
he played one of the greatest positional games I've ever seen.   It looks
almost as if he's lucky to be in front of almost every shot like that,
but believe me, it takes a lot of study to do that.  

The score did not indicate the caliber of the game.  Meola was even
better last night than he was against England late in the game last
year.


Cordoba (rich Corinthian leather!) roams a lot and is always off his line.
I found it amusing that he's been mentored by the former Columbian goalie
who blew their game in the 1990 Cup.


>    The second US goal, the only legit one, was finished off on a Cordoba
>    screw-up but was nonetheless created by a beautiful end-to-end
>    possession in which I don't believe the ball was ever lost.  This is
>    not something the US is supposed to be good at, but they had it working
>    on that goal.

Minor nit.  An own-goal is always legit.  It just looks worse than say
a deflection off a defenseman's skate past the goalie in hockey, because
the pace is slower.

I've had them happen to me, and you want to throttle your defender.  8^)

But, what makes it legit is the fact that the US offense was pressing
and they had the Columbian defense in disarray.




    
>    Perhaps Colombia's sloppy play, particularly on defense, was more
>    responsible for this win than anything the US did, but given that
>    Colombia is a team that some picked to win the whole thing, maybe the 
>    US really is starting to catch up and is better than some of the rest 
>    of the world thinks.  This may be all we'll see but at least it's 
>    progress...
    
I disagree.  

I have to agree with Meola.  The US executed their game plan the way they
wanted and forced Colombia to play the US game and not the other way
around.

I think the one thing that you have to mention is that the US midfield
had a stellar game -- they were pushing up on offense, yet got back in time
to defend.  In 90+ degree heat that's an accomplishment.


Valderamma has cool hair though.....8^)


'Saw

    US dominated Colombia - result should have been 3-1 at a minimum.
    Wynalda hitting the post in the first half, Lalas was definitely
    onsides and if the call was made against the guy on the left, that was
    a bogus call, since he wasn't involved in the play, no offsides should
    have been called.
    
    Balboa's bicycle kick was a thing of beauty.  Clavijo, who played in
    place of Kooiman, was spectacular on defense, as was Lalas.  Dooley
    was better than he showed vs Switzerland, and Harkes had another
    strong game.
    
    Question:  if US beats Romania and Switzerland beats Colombia, who gets
    the top seed in the group?  Is it by goal differential?
    
    NAZZ

>    
>    Question:  if US beats Romania and Switzerland beats Colombia, who gets
>    the top seed in the group?  Is it by goal differential?
>    

I think so.....

>
>    First Win in 44 Years ?  Have they ever made it to the 2nd round ?
>    Im assuming theyve never won the whole thing :-)...
>    

The last US WC win was in 1950, in the by now infamous 1-nil victory
over England.....  (Bit of trivia here -- the guy who set up the goal
in that game was Matt and Chris Bahr's father)

I don't believe they have ever made it to the second round, in fact,
it's been rare that they've even made it to the dance.

They've not come close to winning the whole thing.  


The Cup Winners:

	1930 Uruguay		def. 	Argentina
	1934 Italy                      Czechoslovakia
	1938 Italy                      Hungary
	     *
	1950 Uruguay                    Brazil
	1954 W. Germany                 Hungary
	1958 Brazil                     Sweden
	1962 Brazil                     Czechoslovakia
	1966 England                    W. Germany
	1970 Brazil                     Italy
	1974 W. Germany                 Netherlands
	1978 Argentina                  Netherlands
	1982 Italy                      W. Germany
	1986 Argentina                  W. Germany
	1990 W. Germany                 Argentina


Three 3-time winners (Brazil, W. Germany, Italy), two repeat winners
(Italy Brazil)

    
    So perhaps I was not even giving the US *enough* credit... yes, they 
    played what looked to me to be a great game, in control for the most
    part, but as a novice maybe I just couldn't believe what I was seeing.
    Some of the offensive opportunities, especially on the longball
    breakaways which were actually working against Colombia, almost seemed 
    to come too easy.  For the amount of time that Colombia controlled the 
    ball, the majority, which you expect when a team takes a commanding 
    lead and plays more defensively, the US had the better scoring 
    opportunties.  Even on the own-goal, as 'Saw said, they might have 
    scored had the defenseman let the ball through...
    
> The last US WC win was in 1950, in the by now infamous 1-nil victory
> over England.....  (Bit of trivia here -- the guy who set up the goal
> in that game was Matt and Chris Bahr's father)
    
    Yep, Walter Bahr, who has coached soccer at Penn State for just about
    forever, including his sons, who were soccer All-Americas while
    pursuing that "other" hobby for that "other" coach across campus...
    
    glenn
    

    
     Short shameful confession...
    
     The laundromat had the game on and I managed to catch the second
     US goal and the subsequent twenty or so minutes. It wasn't as bad
     as I thought it'd be. Don't know if I would have bothered if it
     weren't Team USA but I can somewhat understand what some of the fuss
     is all about. 

>     Short shameful confession...
>    
>     The laundromat had the game on and I managed to catch the second
>     US goal and the subsequent twenty or so minutes. It wasn't as bad
>     as I thought it'd be. Don't know if I would have bothered if it
>     weren't Team USA but I can somewhat understand what some of the fuss
>     is all about. 
>

I've always thought you were a person of high intergrity Tommy, and
this reply of yours proves it to me again.....

>            -< So you're saying US can win in Round-16, 'Saw? ;-) >-

No, I don't think so -- perhaps they might get an upset.

The goal for the US has been to move into the second round -- that for
them would be considered a successfuly World Cup.  

If you look at what they needed after 1990, they clearly needed for some
of the players to get European experience.  That happened and they 
got a good coach (Bora is called 'The Miracle Worker').   Ramos has
experience in Spain, Harkes is semi-legend in Sheffield, Kooiman plays
in Mexico, Dooley and Stewart are sons of US Servicemen, foreigners in 
a way, with US Citizenship....   That has helped.

Coming in this year they figured to advance with a win against the Swiss,
and hope for two ties, maybe a tie and a loss to Colombia and Romania.
It hasn't happened that way at all.....

But they look good to advance, barring a disaster on Sunday.



>    So perhaps I was not even giving the US *enough* credit... yes, they 
>    played what looked to me to be a great game, in control for the most
>    part, but as a novice maybe I just couldn't believe what I was seeing.

They basically shut down what Colombia does well -- from my point of
view the USA's best defense was their good offense.  I'm sure they caught
Colombia off-guard by pushing the ball up so much.  I think Colombia
figured the USA would play a highly defensive game trying to keep
Colombia from scoring.   They did that, but they also managed to strike
at the Colombia goal early and often.  Cordoba looked VERY shakey, so I think
he was caught off guard.


>    Some of the offensive opportunities, especially on the longball
>    breakaways which were actually working against Colombia, almost seemed 
>    to come too easy.  

Colombia likes to play tight, in the middle, with lots of little quick-touch
passes.   The US spread things out, attacked long down the wings and
executed (very important) well enough to win.   Valderamma (cool hair)
didn't have an opportunity to be the playmaker.   



>For the amount of time that Colombia controlled the 
>    ball, the majority, which you expect when a team takes a commanding 
>    lead and plays more defensively, the US had the better scoring 
>    opportunties.  Even on the own-goal, as 'Saw said, they might have 
>    scored had the defenseman let the ball through...

Yeah I think they might have, if not then, then certainly soon after.
The Colombian defense was in disarray....


    
>    Yep, Walter Bahr, who has coached soccer at Penn State for just about
>    forever, including his sons, who were soccer All-Americas while
>    pursuing that "other" hobby for that "other" coach across campus...
    
Hehehehe......    

    Ramos was fabulous. He almost had the third goal on a beautiful run.
    Balboa's bicycle kick was highlight material. Meola vindicated himself
    for bad goal in game 1.

    	Anyone happen to have the pre-Cup odds online? I was just curious
    how things shape up after a few games. I know the Columbians were
    favored in the A group, but don't know the odds for the whole thing.

    
    Somebody mentioned a US win over Rumania and Swiss win over Columbia...
    
    Positions are determined by tie-breaking as show below...
    
    1. Points (obvious)
    2. Goal Difference.
    3. Goals scored.
    4. Drawing lots.
    
    Dezzz.

    Yikes.  I remember putting the ball in the net like Escobar did.
    
    It looked like the goalie and he didn't communicate well, and he made
    a pass to a goalie that wasn't there.  Either that or he tried to clear
    it and missed the center of the ball.
    
    It looked like he expected the goalie to stay in his spot and he had a 
    braincramp, passed it to a goalie who moved.
    
    Great game.  Great bicycle kick!  It looked like a Gerd Mueller
    special!
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

>    Great game.  Great bicycle kick!  It looked like a Gerd Mueller
                                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^


Der Bomber!

He owned a steak house down in Florida last I knew.  Scored the winner
for WEst Germany against Holland in 1974.... 

Phenomenal......


'Saw

> Der Bomber!
> 
> He owned a steak house down in Florida last I knew.
    
    I guess being a World Cup hero doesn't pay off like it used to...
    
    If that goal that came off Escobar was intentional, he had a hell of 
    lot more confidence in Cordoba than anyone else did.  The little USA 
    speedburner wings wish they could hit a ball that good... ;-)
    
    
    glenn
     

    	Shame on you Brydie!  Partner's Pub insisted on putting the
    soccer on the big screen, so Denny and I turned our chairs around
    to watch the Slobs/Blue Jays and the buxomy barmaid pour drafts.
    
    				  /Don

>             <<< Note 18.549 by NAC::G_WAUGAMAN "Indians in '94" >>>
>      -< Lemme guess... he's set up right next to Greenwell's GatorWorld >-
>

The first time I was in Munich, the bartender in my hotel had been to the 
US a lot (his name was Tony).  Anyway, he told me about M�ller....

Actually, I have a feeling that owning a restaurant is probably one
of the only things you can do today where there's any job security -- as long
as you do it well.....


'Saw

    Well, he (Der Bomber) obviously didn't do it well. I think after
    his US Steakhouse 'adventure' he had a hard time back home and was
    an alcoholic case for quite some time. As far as I know his old buddy
    Franz Beckenbauer (probably the most dominant soccer duo of all times)
    helped him quite a bit and made him assistent coach of Bayern M�nchen,
    or something like that. Another eternal 'supporting cast' of Franz,
    Georg 'Katsche' Schwarzenbeck, the axe-man, who even has a bit of the
    physique of Schwarzenegger, has a little newsstand these days. No,
    pro sports fame didn't pay that well back then. On the other hand, it
    has to be said that both Der Bomber and Katsche are not really Nobel
    Price material, not even by soccer-player standards...

    
    
      Hey Rainer....
    
      I thought you left?
    
    Jerry

Rainer -


Gee, that's too bad about Der Bomber....At least Beckenbauer helped him
out -- that was cool..

Say, whatever happened to a guy I used to see on a highlights show
over here called "Soccer Made in Germany".  He played for Bayern Munich
and his name was Karl-Heinz Rumminegge (I'm sure I misspelled it...)


'Saw

    Karl-Heinz Rummenigge, on the other hand, who has some brains,
    is a big shot in the club of Bayern M�nchen today, some kind of vice-
    president or something, he made it. He returned to Munich after a good
    career with Inter Milano in Italy. Uli Hoeness, another prominent
    player for Bayern, is the highly influental team manager today.
    So, the whole 'gang' is back in the front office.
    Problem is that they still could kick most of the current team's
    asses on the field. That is a nice picture of how things are with
    german soccer today.
    
    That's it for me, 2 minutes before "delete entry *", as of tomorrow
    I'm out of DEC US and as of next thursday I'm out of DEC germany and
    DEC in general. 
    Have fum ...

Thank Rainer, Good Luck...



the Italian goalie was sent off (red card) for touching the ball outside
of the penalty area.

I had thought that an intentional handball was a booking only, but I guess
for goalies it's a red card....  That means he's gone for Italy's next
game also, I believe....


'Saw

> I had thought that an intentional handball was a booking only, but I guess
> for goalies it's a red card....  That means he's gone for Italy's next
> game also, I believe....
    
    The red card is supposed to be a *two* game suspension now.  Apparently 
    they changed the rule after the games started and even applied the new
    penalty to some of the players red-carded in their first game, before 
    the rule change (including the Bolivian star Etcheverry).  Must be some 
    kind of FIFA absolute power to do that, something we'd never hear of in
    our leagues...
    
    glenn
    

    S. Korea 0, Bolivia 0... good thing we got the expensive tickets...
    sigh...
    

>    S. Korea 0, Bolivia 0... good thing we got the expensive tickets...
>    sigh...

That's the first 0-0 tie in a Cup since 1958....



Re the Red Card --

I know that the penalty for an intentional handball by a regular
player got stiffened up to a yellow card a while ago.  Used to be just
the regular free kick -- nothing else.  Now they get a yellow.

I never remember any stronger penalty for a keeper doing that either.


I saw the replay last night when I got home and it was, IMO, an iffy
call.

Norway could have won the game, but Italy did a remarkable job, down a man
to get the game winning goal and really, really turn the game around.


'SAw
    

    Saw, I believe the graphic was they were hoping to equal 1958
    by NOT having any 0-0 games. 
    
    Jimbo

>    Saw, I believe the graphic was they were hoping to equal 1958
>    by NOT having any 0-0 games. 
    
What I heard the guy say on ESPN last evenign during the Norway-Italy
game was that at that point in the game, it was the furthest into
the World Cup that they had been without a 0-0 tie since 1958.

And I guess this morning I made the mistake of writing that without
having had my coffee first.  (One of these days it would be nice if I could
get a full night's sleep too 8^))

Anyway, I guess what I'm getting at is that this could be the farthest
into the WC that they haven't had a 0-0 tie since 1958.....


Can I go home and go back to bed?

> I saw the replay last night when I got home and it was, IMO, an iffy
> call.
    
    Well, I guess I can see the intent of the rule, when a guy comes out
    with a sliding tackle like that *and* uses his hands, because they do 
    want to discourage anything illicit that keeps the scoring down any 
    further than it already is (Norway may have lost an all-important goal 
    there).  The two-game suspension the goalie still has to serve is rough,
    though.
    
    Did Roberto Baggio get the equivalent of a Jose Canseco superstar
    benching, or what?  In the paper Italy's coach is downplaying it as due
    to injury, etc., but Baggio is talking personal humiliation...
    
    
    glenn
    

Deliberate handball is now a sending off offence. They should get rid of the
ridiculous rule about being able to bring on a substitute goalie, because it
used to be much funnier when an outfield player had to don the keeper's jersey.

Mind you, I think they should abolish substitutes altogether. 8-)

Mike

>Deliberate handball is now a sending off offence. They should get rid of the
>ridiculous rule about being able to bring on a substitute goalie, because it
>used to be much funnier when an outfield player had to don the keeper's jersey.

Oh, I thought it was just a booking for a regular player.  Thanks for
the clarification.  It's a bitch keeping up with all these new rules....


>Mind you, I think they should abolish substitutes altogether. 8-)

Well, you figure they get four all told in rugby and rarely use them
except in the case of injury, and soccer gets two and they almost always
use them.....   I think there's a disparity there somewhere.....


'Saw

(from http://www.worldcup.com) 



First Stage Group Standings

 
    Group A 

 Country          W    L   T   GF   GA   PTS  Game Date-Opponent

 Switzerland      1    0   1    5    2    4   6/18-USA,6/22-ROM,6/26-COL
 United States    1    0   1    3    2    4   6/18-SUI,6/22-COL,6/26-ROM
 Romania          1    1   0    4    5    3   6/18-COL,6/22-SUI,6/26-USA
 Colombia         0    2   0    2    5    0   6/18-ROM,6/22-USA,6/26-SUI



 
    Group B

 Country          W    L   T   GF   GA   PTS  Game Date-Opponent

 Brazil           1    0   0    2    0    3   6/20-RUS,6/24-CMR,6/28-SWE
 Cameroon         0    0   1    2    2    1   6/19-SWE,6/24-BRA,6/28-RUS
 Sweden           0    0   1    2    2    1   6/19-CMR,6/24-RUS,6/28-BRA
 Russia           0    1   0    0    2    0   6/20-BRA,6/24-SWE,6/28-CMR




 
    Group C 

 Country          W    L   T   GF   GA   PTS  Game Date-Opponent

 Germany          1    0   1    2    1    4   6/17-BOL,6/21-ESP,6/27-KOR
 Spain            0    0   2    3    3    2   6/17-KOR,6/21-GER,6/27-BOL
 Korea Rep.       0    0   2    2    2    2   6/17-ESP,6/23-BOL,6/27-GER
 Bolivia          0    1   1    0    1    1   6/17-GER,6/23-KOR,6/27-ESP



 
    Group D

 Country          W    L   T   GF   GA   PTS  Game Date-Opponent

 Argentina        1    0   0    4    0    3   6/21-GRE,6/25-NGA,6/30-BGR
 Nigeria          1    0   0    3    0    3   6/21-BGR,6/25-ARG,6/30-GRE
 Greece           0    1   0    0    4    0   6/21-ARG,6/26-BGR,6/30-NGA
 Bulgaria         0    1   0    0    3    0   6/21-NGA,6/26-GRE,6/30-ARG



 
    Group E

 Country          W    L   T   GF   GA   PTS  Game Date-Opponent

 Ireland          1    0   0    1    0    3   6/18-ITA,6/24-MEX,6/28-NOR
 Norway           1    1   0    1    1    3   6/19-MEX,6/23-ITA,6/28-IRL
 Italy            1    1   0    1    1    3   6/18-IRL,6/23-NOR,6/28-MEX
 Mexico           0    1   0    0    1    0   6/19-NOR,6/24-IRL,6/28-ITA



 
    Group F

 Country          W    L   T   GF   GA   PTS  Game Date-Oponent

 Netherlands      1    0   0    2    1    3   6/20-KSA,6/25-BEL,6/29-MOR
 Belgium          1    0   0    1    0    3   6/19-MOR,6/25-HOL,6/29-KSA
 Morocco          0    1   0    0    1    0   6/19-BEL,6/25-KSA,6/29-HOL
 Saudi Arabia     0    1   0    1    2    0   6/20-HOL,6/25-MOR,6/29-BEL





An Index, FAQ, and Help are available. 

Comments or problems regarding this service? [email protected]. 

           

    re 565:
    
    Substitutes:
    
    Why not have free substition? I think one of the reasons that the game
    is not that popular with US & Canadians is that the pace is so slow
    relative to ice hockey and basketball. I believe that the pace is slow
    sometimes due to the players pacing one themselves.
    
    Last night's Bolivia v Korea game. Players are exhausted. Can't get to
    the ball to make plays and can't be subbed for. This makes no sense.
    
    

>    Why not have free substition? I think one of the reasons that the game

I feel just the opposite.

If ruggers can do it for 80 minutes with a 5 minute half and referees who
really do enforce the pace of the game (plus it's a rougher game), then
soccer can go 90 minutes with their 15 minute half, without subs.

It's rare you see a sub in a rugby match unless a player is so injured
he can't continue.....


'Saw

    
    	Any updates on the Ireland/Mexico game out there ???
    
    	thanx,
    
    	Gilley
    

    Final score:  Mexico 2, Ireland 1.
    
    Garcia scored twice for Mexico, once in each half.  Mexico dominated
    most of the action, and could have had a couple more goals with a
    little luck.  'Saw's hero, the Great Aldo, put in a header seven
    minutes from time for Ireland's only tally.
    
    NAZZ

ALDO! ALDO! ALDO! ALDO!


They should have put him in earlier.  He would have given a clinic!


And the only other sport that Mexican keeper could play wearing those
kind of clothes (with that many colors that clash) would be golf....


'Saw

>             -< ALl four teams in the group now have three points >-
    
    Everyone's goal differential is 0, too.  The Great Aldo's goal was 
    an important one, apparently.  Ireland and Mexico each have 2 goals,
    total, which puts them a slight leg up after differential, right?
    What a tough group, and what a mess.  A tie in the last game and 4
    points might not be enough in this group (if both final games are 
    ties, someone's out...)
    
    glenn
    

    What a gutsy performance by Italy on Thursday! The games at the
    Meadowlands are virtually home games with a big pro Italian crowd.
    Contrast the way the Norwegians played with a man advantage with the
    way the Brazilians dominated Cameroon on Friday.
    
    Italy completed dominated the game although the Norwegians finally got
    a few good chances after falling behind.

Norway are a disgrace to international football and I hope Ireland massacre them
this week to end their chances of progressing. Viva Aldo.

Mike

I saw a replay of Aldo's goal against the Mexicans.  Clearly, the goal
of the tournament IMO, but I might be a bit biased.....8^)


Saw Nigeria vs. Argentina at Foxboro on Saturday.  What an experience.
The atmosphere was like the Olympics.  Security was tight but not intrusive,
and the Massachusetts Fascisti were actually polite.  

Nigeria scored first on a wonderful goal by Samson Siasi, but then the
Swedish ref took over.  Nigeria could not move without the ref calling
a foul on them.    Argentina came back to win on two goals by
Claudio (SNIFF SNORT SNIFF) Canigia.

I was disappointed with Argentina.  Hearing that they were one of the
greatest teams in the world and knowing they were previous Cup winners,
I expected to see some great soccer.  Instead I saw a team of whining 
wusses who ran to the ref every five seconds.

The Great Maradonna is anything but.  He runs a few feet then takes a
dive, looks to see if the ref is looking, if not, he's up again and off.
And the little porker is FAT.  I mean, he's almost as fat as I am!
He looks like Tattoo, from "Fantasy Island".

The rest of the team is as bad.  One of them actually got booked for
feigning an injury.  When the stretcher was brought the player was put
on the stretcher and then got up.  Fortunately, the biased ref couldn't ignore
that blatant foul and booked the bugger.

Nigeria got a little playing room late, but their inexperience showed,
as they weren't getting the bodies up the field to support their rushes,
or else they took too much time trying to set a play.


Things got nasty in the stands at half time as a Nigerian support threw
something at the ref.  The Massachusetts Fascisti moved in quickly, did
a Rodney King on the guy, and off he went.   

I heard talk that on the TV, someone reported that someone asked the
Argentine coach how much he'd paid off the ref.



So, while the game wasn't the greatest -- and the poorest case of officiating
I've seen in years -- the day and the event were something I'll never
forget....


'Saw


PS Tom Hill says to say hi to everyone.....

Team USA had their destiny in their own hands yesterday, and blew it, 
losing 1-nil to Romania.

From where I sat, the US gave up a bad goal.  Meola was again out of position
and the shot inside the near post should have been stopped.

The US had plenty of chances, but it seemed that Romania did their homework
and devised a game plan that stifled what the US was trying to do.  However,
the US team that played yesterday looked more like the pitiful team that
played against the Swiss than the team that took it to the Cartel, uh,
er, the Colombians.

I was disappointed in their play.


So, the Romanains win the division, as the Swiss lost to Colombia.

The US is still in it and will most likely advance to the second round.
There are three things that must happen for the USA to be eliminated.


		- Cameroon must beat Russia by 3 or more goals

		- S. Korea must beat Germany

		- Bulgaria must tie or beat Argentina


If all of those three things happen, the USA is out.

So, it looks like they will advance, which will be a "successful" Cup for
them, but chances are as a wildcard they will end up playing a powerhouse
in the second round, and get spanked hard.

If they had won yesterday, they'd have played one of the weaker sisters
and might have advanced further....


'SAw

    
    
    	Yabbut I heard that the Camaroon goalie has quit the team so I
    don't know what impapct that will have in the Russian game.
    
    I caught the lasted half-hour of the US-Romania game and it was quite
    enjoyable.
    
    I remain,
    potentially capable of getting a kick out o' soccer!
    Kev
    

I think the difference between coming second and third in your group is going to
be the difference between playing Spain and playing Brazil, so that was a big
loss for you. You'll have a hard time against the Brazilians, and Meola had
better be on form. But at least you're in the pigging thing, unlike us. 8-)

Mike

>better be on form. But at least you're in the pigging thing, unlike us. 8-)

They were looking as getting to the second round as success -- which I think
was a good goal for them.  They've done that.  It will be a tough game
whoever they play, but it's been a good Cup for them.


'Saw

If the US had tied or win they would end up 1st in the group which would
mean playing SOuth Korea or Spain(?) in the Rose Bowl. Assuming they
make it to the next round they will play either Brazil or Germany. 

The Crazy Met

Standings from www.worldcup.com:


 

First Stage Group Standings

 
    Group A

 Country          W    L   T   GF   GA   PTS  Game Date-Opponent

 Romania          2    1   0    5    5    6   6/18-COL,6/22-SUI,6/26-USA
 Switzerland      1    1   1    5    4    4   6/18-USA,6/22-ROM,6/26-COL
 United States    1    1   1    3    3    4   6/18-SUI,6/22-COL,6/26-ROM
 Colombia         1    2   0    4    5    3   6/18-ROM,6/22-USA,6/26-SUI



 
    Group B

 Country          W    L   T   GF   GA   PTS  Game Date-Opponent

 Brazil           2    0   0    5    0    6   6/20-RUS,6/24-CMR,6/28-SWE
 Sweden           1    0   1    5    3    4   6/19-CMR,6/24-RUS,6/28-BRA
 Cameroon         0    1   1    2    5    1   6/19-SWE,6/24-BRA,6/28-RUS
 Russia           0    2   0    1    5    0   6/20-BRA,6/24-SWE,6/28-CMR





 
    Group C

 Country          W    L   T   GF   GA   PTS  Game Date-Opponent

 Germany          1    0   1    2    1    4   6/17-BOL,6/21-ESP,6/27-KOR
 Spain            0    0   2    3    3    2   6/17-KOR,6/21-GER,6/27-BOL
 Korea Rep.       0    0   2    2    2    2   6/17-ESP,6/23-BOL,6/27-GER
 Bolivia          0    1   1    0    1    1   6/17-GER,6/23-KOR,6/27-ESP



 
    Group D

 Country          W    L   T   GF   GA   PTS  Game Date-Opponent

 Argentina        2    0   0    6    1    6   6/21-GRE,6/25-NGA,6/30-BGR
 Nigeria          1    1   0    4    2    3   6/21-BGR,6/25-ARG,6/30-GRE
 Bulgaria         1    1   0    4    3    3   6/21-NGA,6/26-GRE,6/30-ARG
 Greece           0    2   0    0    8    0   6/21-ARG,6/26-BGR,6/30-NGA



 
    Group E

 Country          W    L   T   GF   GA   PTS  Game Date-Opponent

 Ireland          1    1   0    2    2    3   6/18-ITA,6/24-MEX,6/28-NOR
 Mexico           1    1   0    2    2    3   6/19-NOR,6/24-IRL,6/28-ITA
 Italy            1    1   0    1    1    3   6/18-IRL,6/23-NOR,6/28-MEX
 Norway           1    1   0    1    1    3   6/19-MEX,6/23-ITA,6/28-IRL



 
    Group F

 Country          W    L   T   GF   GA   PTS  Game Date-Oponent

 Belgium          2    0   0    2    0    6   6/19-MOR,6/25-HOL,6/29-KSA
 Netherlands      1    1   0    2    2    3   6/20-KSA,6/25-BEL,6/29-MOR
 Saudi Arabia     2    1   0    3    3    3   6/20-HOL,6/25-MOR,6/29-BEL
 Morocco          0    1   0    1    3    0   6/19-BEL,6/25-KSA,6/29-HOL


           

Copyright 1994 World Cup USA Los Angeles, CA USA. All rights reserved. 

    Ok the US team lost but dont they play 1 more game in this round ?
    Do the top 2 teams in each division go on, then there are wildcard
    teams (Right) ?  They had 4 pts do 2 teams in there division now have
    more then that ?  I know had they tied or won they were in yes ?
    
    Man this is harder then the last 2 weeks of football all the who's in
    and who's not and what can or cant happen...
    
    								MaB

>    Ok the US team lost but dont they play 1 more game in this round ?
>    Do the top 2 teams in each division go on, then there are wildcard
>    teams (Right) ?  They had 4 pts do 2 teams in there division now have
>    more then that ?  I know had they tied or won they were in yes ?
>    
>    Man this is harder then the last 2 weeks of football all the who's in
>    and who's not and what can or cant happen...
    
No.

It's VERY simple.

They play a round robin in their division, which means three games.  
Group A is done in Round 1.

Romania won the division, and Switzerland took second on the basis of 
goal difference, as they and the US were tied with 4 points.


As I stated earlier, the ONLY way the USA can be eliminated is if ALL
of the following occur:


	1. Cameroon beats Russia by three or more goals.  

	2. S. Korea beats Germany

	3. Bulgaria beats or ties Argentina                          



'Saw

Oh yeah,  the top two in each division go through, and the top FOUR 
third place teams.  That makes the round of 16.

    OK now I get it, looks like there all but a lock to make the next
    round, what time today is the K VS Ger game ?  I think the Cameroon
    beating Russia by 3+ goals is all but a clincher for US... So does
    getting a WC spot (3rd place Finish) Mean playing a #1 seeded team?
    
    								MaB

    John Harkes will be miss the next US game because of two yellow cards.
    Norway should watch videos of Brazil-Cameroon so they can learn how to
    play with a man advantage.

> As I stated earlier, the ONLY way the USA can be eliminated is if ALL
> of the following occur:
>
>	1. Cameroon beats Russia by three or more goals.  [Group B]
>
>	2. S. Korea beats Germany                         [Group C]
>
>	3. Bulgaria beats or ties Argentina               [Group D]           
                [*and* Nigeria beats or ties Greece]
    
    The Globe has it outlined today as considerably more complex than this.
    They're saying that 4 of any 5 events would eliminate the US (the above
    3, plus 2 more).  Basically what this "4 of 5" boils down to are the
    events that need to occur to place 4 of the 5 wild cards ahead of the
    US' current wildcard position-- no group has yet had its wild card 
    position mathematically eliminated.
    
    4.  Saudi Arabia beats or ties Belgium                [Group F]
    		and Holland beats or ties Morocco
    
    5.  A whole bunch of possibilities that advance the Group E wildcard.
    
    
    glenn
     
    
    

>
>    John Harkes will be miss the next US game because of two yellow cards.
>    Norway should watch videos of Brazil-Cameroon so they can learn how to
>    play with a man advantage.


Last I knew they were not carrying yellow's over into the next round.

I could be wrong but the way it was explained to me was that if you got
yer second yellow in the 3rd game it wouldn't carry over. 

Of course, it could just be that they're not carrying the yellow "count"
into the next round, and the person who did the explaining to me was
all wet.....


'Saw

    	They're not carrying yellows forward into the next round, but 
    Harkes got 2 yellows in round 1 so he faces the 1 game suspension
    as a result... 

>
>    	They're not carrying yellows forward into the next round, but 
>    Harkes got 2 yellows in round 1 so he faces the 1 game suspension
>    as a result... 

Oh, okay.

Well, looks like his Cup is over....  A disappointing Cup for John.....

    Germany is beating South Korea, 2-0.

    Frank,
          I wouldn't say Harkes had a disappointing WC. He has been your
    best player. Harkes is the only one who has seen alot of playing time
    and hasn't looked flustered. He has worked tirelessly & has shown more
    of a 'football brain' than the whole of the squad put together.
    
    I hope you guys make it through OK but there isn't much chance of the US
    being unable to progress. Third place spot has guaranteed your exit in
    the next round. I coult see the US give Brazil a game of they were in 
    the same group but not in a knockout game.
    
    Here's what i'd do with the team in any case;
    
    Drop Wynalda - Only thing he's done is score on a free kick (*good
    though it was). His work rate is far too low at this level of play.
    Replace him with Cobi Jones. He has impressed me more than any of the 
    other forwards. Good control & very quick.
    
    Replace the suspended Harkes with Wegerley - he's played midfield
    before. He could also drop out & push up the flanks giving more service
    to Stewart/Jones.
    
    Get rid of the ar$ehole of the year goalie. He may be well liked but he
    hasn't a clue how to position himself. He may be more athletic than the
    guy he beat out but that's obviously not enough as it's been his fault
    the US lost one & drew one.
    
    comments,
    	     Davie.

Personally, I'd shoot Wegerle. Everyone seems to think he is the saviour of U.S.
football, but the truth is that evry time he sets foot on the pitch he does
nothing. I remember a few years ago when he was looking to be selected for the
England team. What a joker.

My advice would be to drop Meola; because you can't afford to have a goalie that
looks good 75% of the time, man to man Romario and Bebeto (by which I mean, kick
Romario and Bebeto off the park), play Ernie Stewart alone up front and just try
to stifle the Brazilians in the hope that they get frustrated.

Alternatively, play a decent game of football, get hammered, but have fun doing
it. 8-)

Mike

    Here's a question for the World Cup Experts
    
    Even with all the problems with the heat, (which is to be expected in
    the middle of summer ) I'm don't think I've seen any
    night games.  Was this dumb scheduling or....
    
    Is there some WC rule against night games ?
    

>    Is there some WC rule against night games ?

I don't think so.

But don't forget that the rest of the world is watching, so some effort
must've been made to schedule games so that Europe and other areas might
get to see some of it live.....


Germany's game yesterday was set up for that reason.....


'Saw
    

Re Davie and Mike, and Harkes and Meola......


	I know what you mean about Harkes.  I guess I should take my own
	advice and remember that the best players are sometimes the ones
	who aren't noticed.  I stand corrected.

	btw, he was jobbed on the yellow card.


	Meola.  Man, what an enigma.  I mean, to me, he clearly was responsible
	for the Romanian goal.  I was far from great as a goalie, but
	I remember that if players coming in were marked, I didn't worry
	about the cross first, but I worried about the shot.   Meola
	has supposedly "studied" goaltending, but yet his two mistakes
	cost the US a good chance to get by the second round.

	But, we don't have anyone else who can replace him -- I don't think.
	Casey Keller is on the outs, and I don't know enough about the
	two other keepers....


	Wegerle..... Nope, he's useless.  It's sad but true.


	Brazil?  I'd say foul the sh*t outta them.  Hammer them 
	physically, make them pay for every inch they try to take
	and lose big -- who cares.    I saw USA-Brazil last year
	at the Yale Bowl and Brazil could have eaten them for lunch
	if they had wanted.  It was 2-1 favor of Brazil in the end....


'Saw

                                                             
>	Brazil?  I'd say foul the sh*t outta them.  Hammer them 
>	physically, make them pay for every inch they try to take
>	and lose big -- who cares.
    
    Lalas, Kooiman and the like are due for a red card... ;-)
    
    
    glenn
    

In the last World Cup, Cameroon beat Argentina in the first round by kicking the
cr*p out of them all through the game. They got two players sent off and about
fifty booked, but they won the game, and probably changed the world cup fortunes
of both teams.

I predict that if any more than 6 Brazilians can still walk at the end of the
match, you'll have lost. 8-)

Mind you, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that Sweden could beat them
and leave you with a slightly easier game.

Mike

  Yesterday the news reported that a couple of games improved the chances of
the U.S. team making the 2nd round. Any update on what has to happen for them
to advance?

  George

Well, it's pretty complicated.

I highlighted three out of five (I think) things that needed to happen
for the US to advance.  One of them was that South Korea had to beat
Germany -- they didn't.

South Korea gave the Germans a helluva game late in the second half,
as the torrid heat was getting to the Germans.  That the Germans wons
was testament, IMO, to the unbelievable play of Bodo Ilgner, their
goalie. 

(btw, if anyone saw the interview with him post-match, I don't think the
interpreter was saying half of what Ilgner was responding, because even
with my sketchy German, I could pick up things that the interpreter didn't
say)


Cameroon must beat Russia by 3 or more, and Bulgaria must tie or beat
Argentina.   If any of those two don't happen, the chances get better
and better for the US to advance....


'saw

>
>I predict that if any more than 6 Brazilians can still walk at the end of the
>match, you'll have lost. 8-)
>

Hell, the US could afford a booking or two, since they're not going anywhere. 
Maul them, I say. 8^)

'Saw

    
> Yesterday the news reported that a couple of games improved the chances of
> the U.S. team making the 2nd round. Any update on what has to happen for them
> to advance?
    
    From 18.587, we're down to events 1-3-4-5 _all_ necessary to knock the 
    US out.  Any one of those doesn't happen, they're in...
    
    glenn
    

  Ok, then it looks good. Will any of those games be happening today?

  If the U.S. does advance to the 2nd round, will 1 loss take them out from
that point on?

  George

>
>  Ok, then it looks good. Will any of those games be happening today?
>

I think Cameroon-Russia and Bulgaria-Argentina happen today.


>  If the U.S. does advance to the 2nd round, will 1 loss take them out from
>that point on?



Yep, all rounds from here on out are "knockout" rounds....

    Anyone got the results from this afternoon's games out of "The 
    Group of Death"?
    

>
>    Anyone got the results from this afternoon's games out of "The 
>    Group of Death"?
>    

At the half it was

	
	IRL 0
	NOR 0

	ITL 0
	MEX 0


'Saw

  Dan Shaughnacy (sp?) of the Boston globe has been poking fun at soccer
lately because of the low scores. When ever he's asked for any prediction he
always predicts a 0-0 tie. 

  He claims that he keeps getting beat up by soccer fans who say that he "MUST"
learn to love soccer. Dan feels that soccer fans don't have a sense of humor.

  What about it? Can you soccer guys take a joke?

  George

I've been trying to get into the World Cup stuff.

First of all ESPN is doing something that I wish all sports could do:
televise without commercial interruptions.

I guess my biggest problem is with the people who try to tell me how
simple the game is, with very few rules. Except that on every play they
have to explain exactly why a call went a particular way. It seems that
there is a_awful lot of making up the call as they go along.

But I'm hanging in there, trying to get into it. I do appreciate the
magnitude of the event, namely, a world champhionship will be determined
on the field.

TTom