Conference back40::soapbox

    _How to take a serious topic and make seem silly: the ham handed
    approach_ by not so Lucky Jack Martin

 .0  that God - what a practical joker, eh?

    The dozens and dozens of young students waiting patiently in line for
    their busses to their field trip at "Ecole Bilingue" (nnttm feel free
    to get it right) are victims of child abuse in the Jack Martin world
    view.
    
    								-mr. bill

re: .0, Our Jack Martin

But, what of Nimrod and his arrogance? 

Surely you have a tie-in there somehow.

    Okay, here's the deal.  A bill will be put forth on the floor of the
    Massachusetts legislature sometime in the next few months.  This bill
    will make English the official language of the Commonwealth of
    Massachusetts.
    
    I find it amazing the utter arrogance and elitism of the Dukakis
    Administration and all the years up to today.  The very idea that those
    of Spanish speaking descent are apparently morons and too stupid to
    learn the English language.  How dare you assume this and how dare you 
    take upon yourselves the idea it is up to us to perserve other
    cultures.  Free clue...most people who immigrate to the United States
    are actually trying to escape from one place in order to prosper at
    another place.  
    
    -Jack

    
    ZOOOOOMMMM!!!!!
    

    
    	Leave it to Jack to start a topic on the Tower of "Babble".
    

    
    
    .0 yep we beat god again.
    

    hold it just a second???
    
    .0 starts with "i'm reminded of a story", proceeds to recall what 
    I think is a bible STORY, then blasts the US for not learning from 
    history???
    
    stories .nne. history     (nne = not necessarly equal)

	Jack, this is another one of those things to get people going, right?
You can't be serious here. Let's look at the story you told. You have a bunch
of people that worked well together, but then all of a sudden they talked
different languages and so they split up. Gee, in todays world, we have people
who speak many different languages. In fact, right here in the facility I work
in. We get around it and get the job done. Funny how the others from the past
couldn't see this reality.

	Now, as far as the Bill goes, it's stupid. 


Glen

    No, it is NOT stupid Glen. 
    
    First, there is a difference between bilingualism and bilingual
    education.  I am a strong proponent of bilingualism.  Anybody with a
    secondary language is far more likely to succeed or be more marketable
    than anybody with knowledge of one language.  So we can put that bit of
    misinformation to rest.
    
    Glen, there are individuals of Mexican descent...people who are
    naturally born in the US...even working in high level positions in
    government had to fight tooth and nail to get their child out of
    bilingual education.  I just find the whole thing disgusting and a big
    sham.  Glen, you would be amazed.  You put a 5 year old spanish
    speaking child in an all English class.  Trust me, he will assimilate
    very quickly.  But let me pose the question to you.  Why is it that
    individuals such as yourself believe that people of Spanish speaking
    descent are morons and incapable of learning the English language?
    
    -Jack

    It seems that the focus of bilingual education always comes down to
    "Spainish speaking", as if by offering English/Spainish education
    solves the "perceived problem".
    
    Let me explain the "real problem" with bilingual education.  When I
    lived in Northern Virginia just across from D.C., the local governments
    were studying offerring bilingual education in the schools.  I should
    say they were being FORCED to study the idea by highly vocal special
    interest groups.
    
    What the local governments learned was that there were 128 seperate
    nationalities represented in the schools, where the native tongue was
    most likely to be spoken at home.  I mean Spainish, Japanese, Swahili,
    Moung (tribe from the highlands of Vietnam), Portugese, and on and on.
    
    To provide a bilingual education in each of the subjects offerred
    across grades 1-12 in 128 different languages was impossible.  The
    governments did not have enough money, and most importantly, did not
    have trained educators for each of the courses in each of the
    languages.
    
    If bilingual education is mandated by the governments/courts, then how
    will you implement it?  The first time you do not teach a class in the
    native tongue of a newly arrived immigrant, the local school board will
    get sued.  To offer bilingual education only in Spainish will be unfair
    to the Koreans, Vietnamese, Chinese, Indians, Africans, and on and on.
    
    Bilingual education is a stupid idea and a logistical nightmare. 

    
    
    
    How does a bill to make English the Official language of the 
    CommonWealth relate exactly to bilingual education?
    
    What is the exact state of bilingual education in Mass right now and
    how will this bill change it?
    
    

    
    	It's not so much the problem of teaching all foreign-speaking
    	students English, since any English teacher could do that.  The
    	problem would appear to be that you'd need teachers that can
    	speak in all the languages that are represented by the foreign-
    	speaking students in order to translate everything to English.
    	And that could prove to be very costly, not to mention impract-
    	ical.
    

    
    	RE: Jack
    
    	Glen must have called Spanish people morons in another note,
    	because I didn't see it anywhere in 551.
    

    Leave it to Jack to thump his way into a political issue.
    
    >"Behold, for they have built this great city and this tower.  I will 
    >therefore give them each a different language and confound them.  
    
    So does this mean that Jack's god is for or against bilingual
    education? This is very confusing.
    
    >What a beautiful, ingenious way to destroy a society.  What a wonderful
    >plan for destroying unity and bringing strife and division between
    >people.  
    
    Jack's god, the great destroyer, ie god of love!
    
    >Boy am I really glad the United States has the intellect to 
    >learn from history lest we be condemned to repeat it!
    
    Hopefully the US won't take any stock in such a myth. To make real
    decisions based on the likes of this fantasy would spell doom for the
    US. 
    
    Decisions should be made by integrating reality, not by referring to
    some bibical myth conceived for emotional sensationalism. It is
    interesting to note that the average non-english speaking Americans are
    not interested in bilingual education, they only wish not to be regarded
    as outcasts. Leave the laws out of it. People can take care of
    themselves when know-it-all authorities keep there minds on there own
    business.
    

    Shawn:
    
    The fact that bilingual education in Massachusetts is mainly for
    Spainish speaking individuals implies the insult is there.
    
    Bollot boxes written in spanish...this strikes me as the same problems
    they are experiencing in Quebec...that being they want to become
    independent of Canada.  I see no value in this.  If anything, I see a
    balkanization of America.  
    
    -Jack

    As usual, Tom comes out with a totally emotional knee jerk reaction and
    brings up a bunch of irrelevents.
    
    First of all, whether the tower of Babel is fact or myth makes
    absolutely no difference.  The point is that a unified group of workers
    was dispersed and scattered because they could no longer communicate.
    
    Secondly and for those (like Tom) who don't understand the text of the
    story, The men who were contructing the Tower had no interest in God. 
    They were constructing the tower for the purpose of Astrology and
    observing the stars.  Nimrod, the Great Hunter, is the father of what
    we know as modern day astrology.  Nimrod also founded Baal worship.
    
    I used the story as a possible attention getter and apparently Tom fell
    for it!
    
    -Jack

    
    	See?  If they would have been constructing the tower for religious
    	purposes, rather than that hokey astrology stuff, there would have
    	been no "trouble from above".
    
    	So in a nutshell, this is yet another pro-religion note.
    

>>       <<< Note 551.0 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I press on toward the goal" >>>

>>  Boy am I really glad the United States has the intellect to 
>>  learn from history lest we be condemned to repeat it!

    Jack, are you full of cow doots or what?  You're saying this
    was all meant as an attention-grabber?

    
    

    But Jack, God was quite concerned that they would be able to 

    		"see us"

    I've always wondered why God didn't want to be seen. Perhaps he had
    already learned the first lesson on how not to be seen.

    Oh for crying out loud	....
    
    Mods., please delete base note and just relace it with
    
    Discuss.....
    

    I find it fascinating that it degenerated into a discussion on Nimrod
    and the Tower of Babel.

  .22  I'm afraid we can't do that, Jack.
       We can't open the pod bay doors either, Jack.

    
    Jack,
    
     You have the privilege of deleting your own replies whenever you want.
    As long as you're on the same node::name as when you entered it.
    
    Go to .0, and type "DELETE" and the an "Y"...
    

    
    	I thought the syntax was
    
    	Notes>DEL ENTRY SOAPBOX
    
    	no??
    

    
     I believe that would be one string he could type, but then who would
    be better off?
    
      Then, of course, no-one would be able to thump... er.... blast him..
    
    
     Or.. we could always ask Meowski to come back...
    
     
    
    
    
       Bluuuuuuuurghh!!!!!
    

    >As usual, Tom comes out with a totally emotional knee jerk reaction and
    >brings up a bunch of irrelevents.
    
    BWHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA   Jack equates the myth of his god destroying a city 
    by changing the language of the people, relates this to bilingual
    education in the real world and then makes the above statement. 
    
    Now my screen needs a good cleaning!

| <<< Note 551.11 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I press on toward the goal" >>>

| But let me pose the question to you. Why is it that individuals such as 
| yourself believe that people of Spanish speaking descent are morons and 
| incapable of learning the English language?

	Jack, as Cindy pointed out to u in CP, you have a knack of coming to
conclusions based on your opinions, and stating them as fact. 



Glen

| <<< Note 551.26 by BUSY::SLABOUNTY "I'll kiss the dirt and walk away" >>>


| I thought the syntax was
| Notes>DEL ENTRY SOAPBOX


	Too funny, Shawn!

       As usual, Jack Martin displays a total inability to communicate. 
       Forget about bilingualism, Jack; it would surely be miraculous if
       you could manage to express yourself in just one language.  I
       can't figure out if you want to carry on about:

           � The Bible, or at least your version of it and the Tower of
             Babel story

           � The history of languages, and whether or not there indeed
             was a common language from which all other languages evolved
             (Nova had a great program on this very subject a few weeks
             ago)

           � Whether or not schools should include bilingual education

           � Whether or not English should be the `official language'
             (whatever that means) of Massachusetts

       I'm going to skip the first three questions because I feel like
       discussing the fourth.  

       One fundamental problem with English as the official language of
       the country (or of a state) is that the issue becomes a rallying
       cry for all of those who can't seem to embrace or find value in
       any culture other than their own -- in short, the Jack Martins and
       David Dukes of the world.  Another fundamental problem is the
       historical issue: how can you reconcile the issue of the English
       language culture with the Native American languages (1)that were
       here first, and (2)that many in the English-language culture have
       tried to eradicate over the past hundred or so years.

       Those issues notwithstanding, I believe that it makes sense for
       English to be the official language of the US and/or its states,
       with a few provisoes.  English is the de facto language almost
       everywhere and has been for a few hundred years; with the
       noteworthy exception of those who were brought here as slaves, no
       adult who has immigrated to this country would not have known that
       English is the lingua franca.  The benefits of a common language
       -- that is, a language that is known to everyone -- are
       overwhelming: they benefit people socially and economically.

       That being said, it's necessary to include a set of conditions to
       the `official language' bit, including:

           � Support for native languages, including the right for Native
             Americans to determine their own schools' language policies

           � Bilingual education for children of non-anglophone parents,
             allowing the children to learn English without holding them
             back in other subjects
       
       --Mr Topaz

    
    "Of course it costs more to have a bilingual country, 
     and the nation is that much richer for it."
    
    			- Pierre Elliot Trudeau
    

    Okay Glen, that was easy.  You avoided my question by bringing up the
    lovely Ms. Painter.  However, I will not let you get away with that.  
    Why do you think the bill is stupid and why shoud Spanish be above all
    other languages...that is if your intentions are honorable!!
    
    -Jack

    "It's the extra printing costs! Good Lord! All the packaging,
     currency, contest rules, tax forms, condom instructions and
     more tax forms! Sacr� Bleu!"

    			 - Korff Barbunk

ZZ           � Whether or not schools should include bilingual education

Bingo.  That's what I wanted to address.  Forget the base note.  It was a 
mistake that resurrected the Tom Ralstons of the world.  Totally missed the
point.

ZZ           � Whether or not English should be the `official language'
ZZ            (whatever that means) of Massachusetts

This I would also like to address.

ZZ       One fundamental problem with English as the official language of
ZZ       the country (or of a state) is that the issue becomes a rallying
ZZ       cry for all of those who can't seem to embrace or find value in
ZZ       any culture other than their own -- in short, the Jack Martins and
ZZ       David Dukes of the world.  

No...the problem with bilingualism is that a society unable to communicate is
unable to function.  The Jantech guys come in every evening to empty my waste
baskets.  Fortunately I speak some Spanish and am able to communicate with 
them.  They have no concept of the English language.  

You know as well as I do that without learning the English language, the 
likelihood that these two guys will ever reap the benefits of industrialized
America are very slim...and yet the politicians feel it is more
beneficial and our duty as a taxpayer to preserve other cultures.  This is
simply NOT true.  


  ZZ     Another fundamental problem is the
  ZZ     historical issue: how can you reconcile the issue of the English
  ZZ     language culture with the Native American languages (1)that were
  ZZ     here first, and (2)that many in the English-language culture have
  ZZ     tried to eradicate over the past hundred or so years.

Could you please discuss this a little more?  I fail to see how this is a 
problem.  

  ZZ     The benefits of a common language
  ZZ     -- that is, a language that is known to everyone -- are
  ZZ     overwhelming: they benefit people socially and economically.

Exactly, so why am I a bigot here for stating the same thing?

  ZZ         � Support for native languages, including the right for Native
  ZZ           Americans to determine their own schools' language policies

This could be a whole topic within itself.  If Native Americans are to be 
separate, then are they also responsible for the tax burden of the United
States?  Are they also able to reap the benefits of what the US has to offer?
I'm sincerely asking this just to understand better.  

ZZ           � Bilingual education for children of non-anglophone parents,
ZZ             allowing the children to learn English without holding them
ZZ             back in other subjects
  
     I believe if you begin a child immediately in school, they will assimilate
very quickly and pick up the language.  Children are very fast learners.  I 
also believe that the more languages a child learns, the better off they are.
I wish very much I had learned Greek and Latin in school.  Alot of our root 
words derive from these languages and I'd probably be a better speller today! 
:-) 

I think bilingual education...teaching the child the language of their heritage
as the primary language WILL effect the child negatively because they don't 
have a grasp of the English language...which is used in our society.

-Jack
                                                

    
    	Trash guy:  Hmmm, if I learn English I can better communicate
    		    with that Jack Martin guy.  Nah.
    

    A typical Shawnism....Cute.
    
    Bottom line is he won't be able to have that interview...or possibly
    secure that bank loan....or run for Congress.....

    
    
    
    
    .37 and you think the trash guy went to public school and never learned
    	english because he had a translater/educator?
    
    
    	I wish the benifits vs cost arguements were based off of relevant
    	information like, have studies show this program to be an 
    	overwhelming FAILURE or SUCCESS.
    
    	Or how much of a burden has it been?
    
    	Not how many spanish workers we know that can only speak the 
    	third most common tongue in the world.
    
    

    What I failed to mention is I told one of the guys if they could learn
    the English language, they would open the door of opportunity and have
    alot more options available.  He flat out told me he wasn't interested.
    
    Now that is fine and he can decide as he wishes.  But I don't believe
    our public school system should be encouraging young students to learn 
    the language of their heritage if they can't function or communicate in
    an English speaking society.  
    
    -Jack

    
    Free hint Jack: Those people you've been speaking Spanish to
    	probably speak Portuguese as their native tongue, which
        is a different language. They're already bilingual.

        Most of the cleaning folks here are from Brazil, where
        the most common language is Portuguese and where the
    	second most common language is Native Indian dialects.
    	Spanish is a distant third...

    -b

    Perpetual motion machine, start at any step:
    
    1.  Democrats get re-elected to Mass. state government.
    
    2.  Democrats support continuing bilingual education in schools.
    
    3.  Non-English-speaking students are encouraged to continue
        using their native language as their primary language.
    
    4.  The students grow up to become adults who are functionally
        illiterate in English.
    
    5.  The non-English-speaking adults are unable to enter the
        professions in which English proficiency is required.
    
    6.  The non-English-speaking adults find that their only career
        alternatives are low-paying unskilled jobs.
    
    7.  Because of their economic status, they are frequently
        compelled to seek economic and other assistance from
        government programs.
    
    8.  Election time rolls around again, and the non-English-speaking
        population must again decide whom to vote for.
    
    9.  They realize that it's the Democrats who support continuation
        and expansion of all of the economic and other assistance programs
        that they must rely on to survive.
    
    10. Go to Step 1.
    

    Exactly.  The democrats have no power base if the populace is self
    sufficient.
    
    

> I told one of the guys if they could learn the English language, they
> would open the door of opportunity and have alot more options available.

Our Jack Martin - Career Counselor.

    
    
    
    .41 OH PLEASE!
    
    You actually believe that spanish speaking students are entering our
    public schools and leaving without knowing english? 
    That Jack's wastebasket emptier is one of these ex-students?
    
    If Jack understood spanish as well as he wished,  he'd probably
    understand why his wastebasket emptier doesn't bother to learn english.
    
    He probably doesn't plan to live in the U.S. after his Visa
    expiration.
    What good will english do him if he only achieves the level of Jack's
    spanish before returning home.
    

    
    Is Jack Martin trying to tell these cleaners what's best for them?
    
    Why...that sounds like...like...like something a LIBERAL would do!
    
    ;^)
    

    Touche!
    
    

	Listen JM, you can keep stating what you want, but if you would only
ask..... oh, you did. :-)

	Jack, I live in a Greek neighborhood. When we walk down it, they mostly
speak Greek. If I talk with them, they speak English. If people want to speak
their native tongue, why not let them? You're telling them they have to learn
English. Well what language are we going to force the english speaking
population to learn? To be honest, I think learning another language is
something that is good to learn. But it is up to the individual. What I would
like to learn is sign language. It would help me communicate better with my
deaf friends.

	But as an aside, my father was like you in a way. He is Portugese. My
mother, who was not, wanted my father to teach us the language. He said no,
because you must only speak english. Boy, was he wrong..... but that was the
mentality of the people back then. White and English. If you're anything else,
you better change. That's bigotry, Jack.

    
    Glen lives in a Greek neighborhood. Will wonders ever cease... :-)
    
    -b

<grin> :-)

    
    
    Aside from .44's tirade, no-one seems to want to take apart .41
    
    Too close to the facts??
    

    I think we're confusing being bilingual with bilingual education here.
    
    It's fine to be bilingual, or even multilingual.
    
    What's not fine is to deny students the opportunity to become
    proficient in what is obviously the language of the higher-level
    professions in this country, by coddling them in their native
    language for as long as possible in the school system.
    
    Students are indeed leaving school without being proficient and
    sufficiently literate in English to enable much professional
    advancement, and that's holding them back.
    
    As I've said before when this topic comes up (and I'll say it
    more briefly this time, so as not to be too tedious :-)), if my
    father (and I) had been feelgood'ed with Italian through the
    school system, I'd be flipping pizzas now in the back room at
    Mario's.
    
    Chris

    
    
    
    .50 Tirade?                                
    
    
    
    >no-one seems to want to take apart .41
    
    There is nothing to take apart IT HAS NO SUBSTANCE. At least he
    could have waited till make up a fact friday and added meat to it.
    
    WATCH.
    
    	1) Student can't speak english; is 13 years old and newly arrived
    	   from germany.
    
    	2) While learning english gets to complete his education in math,
    	   science, and World history.
    
    	3) Goes on to graduate with his peers.
    
    	4) graduates college and discovers single handly the cure for
    	   all known types of cancer.
    
    
    	DUH! This probably has a greater chance of coming true than .41
    
    This entire note contains nothing but right-wing feel good statements.
    It has not offered a single piece of fact to support that biligual
    education hurts students.
    	

    Dia dhuit tra'thno'na.
    
    Ta' Gaelige agus Be'arla agam.  

    Mr. Wilbur-
    
    If the student is as bright as you posit, learning English as his/her
    primary language won't dramatically impact his/her ability to discover
    the cure you are talking about.  How does one decide which language to
    promote in the school system?  Or shall we offer courses for the native
    tongues of all who don't have English as a first language?  I don't see
    anybody here saying there is a problem with being bilingual, but that 
    we shouldn't offer wholesale support to the notion of creating
    bilingual school systems.

    Glen:
    
    Thank you...but read the first few replies of mine.  Better yet, I will
    repeat.
    
    From .11 to you!
    
    "First, there is a difference between bilingualism and bilingual
    education.  I am a strong proponent of bilingualism.  Anybody with
    a secondary language is far more likely to succeed or be more
    marketable than anybody with knowledge of one language.  So we can put that
    bit of misinformation to rest."
    
    Apparently you do what Ms. Painter claims I do...that being you assume
    something that's not there or you just read what you want to read.  I
    ask again...Children of Hispanic origin are forced into bilingual
    education programs...even if they are born in the US.  This is an
    infringment on the childs nationality (US Citizen) and an infringment
    on those who would benefit by assimilating into our society.  Why is
    good to keep the status quo???
    
    -Jack
    

    
    
    
    .54 
    
    >How does one decide which language to promote in the school system? 
	
     I don't know. I asked what was the current situation in Mass in
     regards to bilingual education. Nobody knew or answered.
    
    >shall we offer courses for the native
    >tongues of all who don't have English as a first language? 
    
	I don't know. I asked if any knew of any studies that proved
    	or disproved the VALUE of such education.
    
    >I don't see anybody here saying there is a problem with being bilingual
    
    	Gratefully, I don't either.
    
    What I do see is a bunch of writers that don't care what the facts are
    or might be. Just a bunch or grunting and knee-jerking. If anyone,
    the basenoter should have provided information to discuss rather than
    summoning the players to a circle of LET'S COMPLAIN ABOUT PEOPLE THAT
    CAN'T SPEAK ENGLISH.
    
    Hiding this behind public education makes it even more wrong.
    
    Again, How much is it costing the state? What is the reality.
    

 ZZ   summoning the players to a circle of LET'S COMPLAIN ABOUT PEOPLE
 ZZ   THAT CAN'T SPEAK ENGLISH.
    
    Talk about being Waaayy out in left field...
    
    How am I complaining about people who can't speak English?  If
    anything, I complained about the Dukaka crats and I complained as to
    what a sham bilingual education is.  If anything, I'm standing up for
    the folks who need to assimilate into society.
    
    I wish you'd learn to comprehend a little better.  You're pulling a
    Glen here!!!!
    
    -Jack

    
    I AM JACK OF BORG.  YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED.  RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.
    

    I AM PENTIUM OF BORG. YOU WILL BE APPROXIMATED. DIVISION IS FUTILE.
    
    (copied, not my original quote)

    
    
    
    .57 oh I am sorry Jack.
    
    	But your only fact that you have provided so far was a 
    	Cleaner that didn't speak english, that you were fustraited with
    	because he didn't want to know English. He did not go through
    	the public bilingual education system, right?
    
    	So Jack, please tell me so I can return to center,
    	What does this Cleaner have to do with the entire
    	arguement except for the fact that he does not speak English
    	and that you want to complain about him?
    
        Jack you don't know how much it costs the system.
    	     You don't know how successful or not the program is.
    	     You don't know and I mean, sink your teeth and gnaw on the
    	     truth, anything about this subject except....you don't think
    	     it's good and the cleaner can't speak english.
    
    
    
    

    .53
    
    Salue.
    
    Latine Angliceque dico.

       It is a shame that ex-boxers Dermot O'Sullivan and Mike Hughes no
       longer participate.  Each is a thousand times more eloquent than
       Brother Leech in either English or Irish.

>                     <<< Note 551.63 by CALLME::MR_TOPAZ >>>

>       It is a shame that ex-boxers Dermot O'Sullivan and Mike Hughes no
>       longer participate.  Each is a thousand times more eloquent than
>       Brother Leech in either English or Irish.
        
        Bolleaux!
        
        Mike Hughes (aka "SNAKE") could only be considered eloquent if
        you accept certain forbidden "f" words, used alternately with
        "acceptable" words, as eloquence.
        
        I miss him too.
        

    re: .63
    
    I wasn't going for eloquence, I was going for simplicity.
    
    In any case, I would welcome fluency lessons from a native of Ireland,
    I would (I believe O'Sullivan was native to Ireland, though I'm not sure 
    about Hughes). 
    
    
    -steve

    All's I've heard from alot of you is the perpetual bellyaching
    regarding the Tower of Babel...followed by the usual accusations of
    bigotry and racism.  
    
    No, actually I don't know a whole lot about the subject...so what.  I
    never claimed to know alot.  I figured you intellectual types could
    educate me on the matter.  
    
    Regarding the cleaning man; The reason I brought him up was to show
    what might happen if one cuts off their opportunities by refusing to
    learn the English language.  The guy is happy where he is and I in no
    way fault him for that.  However, a day may come when he will regret
    not broadening his horizons.
    
    If you force a child to learn the language of his heritage in place of
    the English language, assimilation will be more difficult and
    opportunities will be lacking.  This is why I'm so amazed at the likes
    of Mr. Topaz...who has the balz to call me a bigot when in fact he is a
    proponent of a sham.
    
    -Jack

    
    .66

    >The guy is happy where he is and I in no
    >way fault him for that.  However, a day may come when he will regret
    >not broadening his horizons.
    
    I, on the other hand, regret not broadening my horizons by paying
    attention in French class, thus not becoming functionally bilingual.
    

    .67
    
    Tant pis.

    
    
    And what of us who are tri-lingual and more? Do we get to read 3 or more
    menus at the local McD's???
    

    SILVA....I'm waiting for your reply!!!!

    
    .68
    
    Allons-y aujourd-hui, et vous?  Manger la porte, comme-ci.
    

    
    .69,
    
    Knowledge is a blessing and a curse, Andy.   :^)
    

    
    
    .66
    
    >>No, actually I don't know a whole lot about the subject...so what.
    
    Thank you for saying that.
         
      BUT then you turn around and make statements like this...
    
        >If you force a child to learn the language of his heritage in place
    	>of the English language, assimilation will be more difficult and
        >opportunities will be lacking.
    
    	You have no idea if this is true or not. Doesn't that bother
    	you? If I started a base note, I would have at least brought
        something to the table to discuss. You brought knee-jerking rhetoric
    	repeated with every note and by others.
    
        >followed by the usual accusations of bigotry and racism.
    	 
    	Did I do this? I thought I was being consistant in my arguements.
    	Asking if you knew anything about what you were condeming.
    	I guess it could be bigotry if you were a supporter of inclusion
    	programs. These sound very similar to me except the targeted
    	students.
    
    	I would probably agree with you Jack if I knew more about the
        subject, I don't like Inclusion programs myself and I feel I
    	know enough about them to say so.
    
    	>I figured you intellectual types could educate me on the matter.
    
    	You started the note, I hoped you could or someone else that
    	agreed with you. 
    
    
        >I've heard from alot of you is the perpetual bellyaching
        >regarding the Tower of Babel.
    
    	One note, one sentence. I was wrong. It's my anti-religion reflex.
    	

    
    We don't need to establish an Official Language, and we don't need to
    make sure that everyone in our society can speak English.  We can 
    get along perfectly well with everyone speaking a multitude of
    tongues, and everything will work out just fine.
    
    As an example, one cold and snowy night last winter, I went around
    the building trying to get everyone to move their cars so that the
    snowplow driver could clear the front lots.  I had no problems
    until I got to the night janitor, Obdulio.
    
    Now, Obdulio speaks no English, and I regret to say that I speak no
    Spanish.  But by using the Ugly American's internationally recognized
    mode of communication (speaking the English words s-l-o-w-e-r and
    LOUDER,) I seemed to be able to get my point across to him.  Nodding
    his head in agreement, Obdulio walked off for a few seconds.  Then he
    returned bearing his thermos of coffee, whereupon he proceeded to
    pour me a cup of steaming hot joe in response to my pleas and
    entreaties.  Being an agreeable sort, I accepted his gift, and 
    bade him goodnight.
    
    So, you see, everything worked out fine.  Although I was not able to
    communicate my message to him, and he could not discern the nub of
    my gist, I did get a free cup of hot coffee.  Every dark cloud has its
    silver lining, and that's something, even if it is nothing.
    
    Yours truly,
    
    
    
    Rob                
    

No doubt Obdulio had seen Garret Morris on Saturday Night Live's Weekend Update,
and he simply assumed you took him for one who was hard of hearing.

    re: .74
    
    What a nice chap.  Hope his car didn't get plowed in.

     ZZ       You have no idea if this is true or not. Doesn't that bother
     ZZ       you? If I started a base note, I would have at least brought
     ZZ       something to the table to discuss. 
    
    You do not have to be an expert at bilingual education to see the
    writing on the wall.  The symptoms are there.  People who have migrated
    from other countries who cannot speak English rank high amongst the
    welfare dole, the unemployed...You really don't see this??  
    I would encourage you to look up the stats in Southern California. 
    Pete Wilson is fed up with this very problem...people illegally
    entering the country, without resource, without education and a
    definite bend toward dependence.
    
    Bill Clinton is a big proponent of Education and so am I.  He feels it
    will make America stronger economically and socially.Training students
    in their hereditary language and not English will make America
    stronger??  I see a disconnect here.
    
    -Jack

   ZZ     We don't need to establish an Official Language, and we don't need to
   ZZ     make sure that everyone in our society can speak English.  We can 
   ZZ     get along perfectly well with everyone speaking a multitude of
   ZZ     tongues, and everything will work out just fine.
    
    Rob, let's assume you were trying to get hold of an ambulance and your
    ability to understand Spanish caused the death of a loved one.  How
    would you feel about his inability to understand the English language?
    
    -Jack 

    
    	RE: Rob
    
    	Are you trying to make poor Jack feel bad?  He didn't get a cup
    	of coffee from the trash guy.
    

    
    It might interest Jack to know that the company currently paying his
    bills sells more that 60% of its products outside the US, about 50%
    are sold on countries where English is not the first language.
    
    Like any other US company in the world market place, there is a huge
    cost associated with doing business in other countries and a good
    percentage of those costs can be reduced by engineering-in
    internationalization during the inception and design of a product.
    
    When Digital was developing overseas markets, it used local workforces
    to take care of producing international products by reengineering the
    original English products that were produced in th USA.  This was (and
    is) very expensive.  For example, producing Japanese variants of
    documentation can cost $250 PER PAGE and very often, much of that
    documentation is only there because the product interface was not
    designed for international use.
    
    In some cases, supporting local languages is an absolute requirement of
    doing business in a country.  We have to support the minority language
    of Catalan.
    
    The irony was, that while the US has a huge and diverse culture, it
    was not making use of this diversity in the business world.   This has
    changed recently.  Companies, including Digital are using local
    expertise to engineer and deliver international products in the US and
    shipping the same product worldwide.  However, we find it hard to
    find engineers with the dual expertise of engineering skills plus the
    understanding of another language and culture.  
    
    Multilingual employees from diverse cultural backgrounds are very
    valuable to US businesses.  We can't get enough of them in Digital
    and we are still relocating employees from China to do I18N work.
    Just as I was relocated here Jack - to do a job that Digital couldn't fill
    locally (Internationalization training design and delivery.)
    
    Colin

| <<< Note 551.77 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I press on toward the goal" >>>

| I would encourage you to look up the stats in Southern California. Pete Wilson
| is fed up with this very problem...people illegally entering the country, 
| without resource, without education and a definite bend toward dependence.

	Ahhhh... let's just use your scenerio..... how do you force people who
are in the country illegally to learn the English language? If everyone HAS to
learn it as you say, how do you force them? 

	Why do you put people who enter the country illegally into the same
catagory as anyone who enters the country who doesn't speak English? I think
someone earlier hit the nail on the head with you. Jack, you take a group of
people, and apply them to everyone. Not good, Jack, not good.



Glen

    
    
    551.77
    
    >You do not have to be an expert at bilingual education to see the
    >writing on the wall.  The symptoms are there.  People who have
    >migrated from other countries who cannot speak English rank high 
    >amongst the welfare dole, the unemployed...You really don't see this??
    
    How you put two and two together is amazing, truly dizzying.
    
    The subject, I believe was bilingual education. 
    
    'The People migrated from other countries who cannot speak English
     and recieve welfare' as you describe; are not going to public schools.
    
    Effectively they are out of the equation.
    
    Now if you could show me, any proof that a bilingual education does
    leave the students without an effective grasp of the English Language,
    then you have an arguement.
    
    Isn't that the topic 'bilingual education good or bad?'
    
    If the wefare dole as you described it was being filled by the ranks of
    this public school program, again there would be substance to your
    notes.
    
    For all you know, they are going to college and making more of their
    lives and career than you are.
    
    >You really don't see this?? 
    
    See what? That your complaining again about people that don't speak
    English and not of the success or failure of a single program
    that you wrap up with them. I'll bet their REAL problem of these 
    non-english speaking welfare takers is they don't have any education. 
    English or otherwise else they probably wouldn't be here.
    
    
    	Would you consider the bilingual education program a sucess if
    	you knew Jack, 
    
    	That all or nearly all students graduated with the ability to 
    	speak English and that without such programs 
    	the droppout rate for these students was higher than average?
    
    

    ZZ    Multilingual employees from diverse cultural backgrounds are very
    ZZ    valuable to US businesses.  We can't get enough of them in Digital
    ZZ    and we are still relocating employees from China to do I18N work.
    
    Colin, I can appreciate this very much and I am a proponent of learning 
    as many languages as you possible can.  I am not addressing this in the
    context of bilingual education.  I am poo pooing the beurocrats locally
    and in Washington DC who are forcing children into bilingual education
    programs...simply because they are from a hispanic background.
    
    Now...let's address the diatribes of Glen and Mr. Wilbur.  You guys are
    either hopeless or I am not communicating properly...nevertheless, I
    brought up the Southern California thing ONLY to show that people who
    don't speak the English language will tend to have a more difficult
    time finding employment than one whose primary language is English. 
    Those whose primary language is English and has one or more other
    languages has a wide field of opportunity...more than one who only
    speaks English.  Do you agree...yes or no with both of these
    points...yes or no???
    
    

    Jack,
    
    Never mind the fact that parts of the SW, including California were
    colonized originally by founding fathers who spoke Spanish.  I am at a
    distinct disadvantage in parts of New Mexico with my spanish, or lack
    thereof.  
    
    meg

    Meg:
    
    And if you had to do alot of business down there the best thing to do
    would be to learn that dialect of Spanish.  The worst thing to do would
    be to take your daughter at six and force her to learn Spanish in place
    of English!
    
    -Jack

| <<< Note 551.83 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I press on toward the goal" >>>



| I brought up the Southern California thing ONLY to show that people who don't 
| speak the English language will tend to have a more difficult time finding 
| employment than one whose primary language is English.

	Jack, you use people who are in the country illegally as your models to
show that those who don't speak english have a hard time getting jobs. Lets
see, what is wrong with this..... could it be that people who are in the
country illegally might have a hard time finding a job because they are hear
illegally???? But it is so much easier to take one part, their not speaking
english, and apply that to anyone who does not speak english. The hell with
their not being here legally to begin with. 


Glen

    Okay...point taken and accepted...bad example.
    
    I would still like you to answer my two points from a few notes back...
    and I will haunt you to the very fires of hell till you answer me!

    
    <--- YOU're waiting for answers?  So's Topaz, I hear.
    
    :^)
    

    I plan on starting another note on that very topic.  Topes will of
    course go up my behind with a fine tooth comb and will therefore have
    to compose a bibliography, give all sources, make sure the sources
    aren't National Review or anything like that, etc.
    
    I need to go to a library and we are moving this week.  I've been
    packing every night the last two weeks.
    
    But thanks anyway Joan!!! :-)
    
    

    
    "...up my behind with a fine tooth comb..."
    
    You desperately need a better metaphor, Jack.   :^)
    

    
    Mixed Metaphors, Mixed Marriages, Mixed Language Teaching...
    it's all the same thing! :-)

    -b

    
    ...the horror...
    
    ...the...horror...
    

    
    
    .83 Jack     
    
    >I brought up the Southern California thing ONLY to show that
    >people who
    >don't speak the English language will tend to have a more difficult
    >time finding employment than one whose primary language is English.
    >Those whose primary language is English and has one or more other
    > languages has a wide field of opportunity...more than one who only
    >speaks English.  Do you agree...yes or no with both of these
    >points...yes or no???
    
    
    
    I agree, especially if you qualify the statement with jobs in the U.S.
    
    What I don't agree with is.
    
    BILINGUAL EDUCATION PROGRAM = NO ENGLISH 
    
    You have done nothing to address this wild assumtion. Worse you repeat
    this idea like it is fact. You could at least qualify your statements
    with IMHO or I believe, I feel, I think.
    
    You slam a program, you admitt, you know little about.
    
    
    
                    

| <<< Note 551.87 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I press on toward the goal" >>>

| Okay...point taken and accepted...bad example.

	Phew....

| I would still like you to answer my two points from a few notes back...

	Readdress the questions. I probably did not answer them because using
your scenerio, of illegal people = why non-english speaking people are not
supposed to be able to have jobs. Explain them (the questions) a bit so I know
where you're trying to come from this time.

| and I will haunt you to the very fires of hell till you answer me!

	I knew you were going to Hell! :-)

    Well if my child were forced into bilingual education I would be
    offended.
    
    -Jack

    
    
    
    .95 
    
    
        >>Well if my child were forced into bilingual education I would be
        >>offended.
    
        >>-Jack
          
    
    	Really?
    
    	First, I'm sorry, do you have a child? For me to believe you
    	thats the first requirement.
    
    	Senerio,
    
    	Ok, you have been transfered to Spain for five years.
    
    	Your child is about to become a freshman in highschool.
    	Nice School in Spain. 
    	Reknown for giving the best HS education in the world.
    	They would like to have your child in a bilingual forum and
    	you would be offended?
    
       
        

    
    	Actually, I think Nice School is in France.
    
    	And they probably refer to it as Nice Ecole.
    

    
    re:.97
    
    >>And they probably refer to it as Nice Ecole.
    
    Nah, L'ecole Nice would be closer wouldn't it?
    
    C.

     ZZ       First, I'm sorry, do you have a child? For me to believe you
     ZZ       thats the first requirement.
       
    Yes, I have three.
     
    ZZ        Senerio,
        
    ZZ        Ok, you have been transfered to Spain for five years.
      
    I'll go along.  Keep in mind that I am addressing children who have
    been born in the United States, have been accustomed to English all
    their lives, and parents have to fight to get them into a regular
    school program.
      
    ZZ        Your child is about to become a freshman in highschool.
    ZZ        Nice School in Spain. 
    ZZ        Reknown for giving the best HS education in the world.
    ZZ        They would like to have your child in a bilingual forum and
    ZZ        you would be offended?
    
      So in this case, I would want to have her go to a Spanish speaking
    school and they (the beurocrats) want my daughter to go to an English
    speaking school.  If that be the case, then yes, I would be offended.
    I believe this is a parents decision and not the governments.
    
    Now let's assume the opposite is the case...that they wanted me to have
    my daughter in a Spanish speaking school.  I have this belief that if
    one goes abroad it is your utmost responsibility to assimilate.  This
    means ADAPTING to THEIR culture and their primary language.  I think it
    is rude otherwise and I'll give you an example.
    
    A week ago, I took my wife to a Chinese restaurant.  The manager was
    speaking kurtly in Chinese to one of the waiters...actually to all the
    waiters.  First of all, the guy is greatly lacking in protocol;
    however, I just find his speaking in Chinese rude.  For all I know, the
    guy could be bad mouthing the customers.  It is the same as if you were
    giving a lecture and two people in the front row were whispering to
    each other.  Rude!
    
    -Jack

 Bilingual snarf!

    
    >>>And they probably refer to it as Nice Ecole.
    >
    >Nah, L'ecole Nice would be closer wouldn't it?
    
    
    	Probably depends on which road you take into France.
    

    
    .99

    >...I just find his speaking in Chinese rude.  For all I know, the
    >guy could be bad mouthing the customers.
    
    You say a lot more than you may realize here, Jack.  Careful!
    

    Not sure I understand.  The same could be said for me if I were in
    China and I yelled at the help in English.  
    
    It's a courtesy issue...nothing more. 

    
    You could always go to China and yell at the help in Spanish...
    
    -b

    
    .103
    
    Why?  Do you feel you should be party to all that goes on around you?
    

    
    re:.101
    
    >>Probably depends on which road you take into France.
    
    Prob'ly.
    
    Chris.

    
    
    .99   
    
    Thanks for going along.
    
    I'm chewing on your reply. Is what you described a true equivilant to
    Mass? Or what you think the Mass program is.
    

    
    	Chinese people speaking Chinese in a Chinese restaurant ... what's
    	this world coming to?
    
    	Jack, maybe you shouldn't speak English in a Chinese restaurant,
    	since the employees might think you're bad-mouthing them.
    

    
    I know that Chinese people like to talk about me, but I wish I knew
    what they were saying.  It's important that I know how they feel
    towards me.
    

   
    
    
    .99
    
    Ok I called a Mass Teacher.
    
    It wouldn't be a different school. 
    
    At the High-School level, Core classes like science, and math
    that need a high level of language comprehension have
    class rooms dedicated for this. 
    
    Not all classes are in Spanish as the focus is to immensed the students
    in the language.
    
    How long do you think it would take your children to learn Spanish
    at high school level Jack?
    
    ....
    
    
    As for your dinning out experience....It's what I call atmosphere.

    given a stated dislike of cultures other than Euro-American, I am
    surprised you actually walked into a resturant that has a high chance
    of being staffed with people from a different culture, many of whom
    have probably immigrated fairly recently.  
    
    Now, knowing what the bilingual program is in my kid's school, I don't
    see the issue.  English, reading, art are all done in an english
    environment.  Math, Science, Geography, are taught in the students'
    primary language until there is some expertise in English.  what is the
    problem with this?  Do you oppose having children who speak Amerslan
    having interpreters in a classroom?  Should a blind child be expected
    to read a non-braille book?  Oh yeah, they should be forced to work the
    same way as hearing/seeing children to avoid employment difficulties,
    even if it means they will fail.
    
    meg
    
    
    
    

    
    >    ... the issue becomes a rallying
    >    cry for all of those who can't seem to embrace or find value in
    >    any culture other than their own -- in short, the Jack Martins and
    >    David Dukes of the world.

    Good to see you haven't changed Don.... Still using the broad brush
    technique I see.  Trying to prove guilt by association, where no
    association exists.....typical liberal ploy.  Kinda boring though.

    
    re:.44

    > He probably doesn't plan to live in the U.S. after his Visa
    > expiration.

    You think this person is here legally?  Maybe he is, maybe he isn't,
    but you probably shouldn't just assume that he's a legal.

    
   | A week ago, I took my wife to a Chinese restaurant.  The manager was
   | speaking kurtly in Chinese to one of the waiters...actually to all
   | the waiters.  First of all, the guy is greatly lacking in protocol;
   | however, I just find his speaking in Chinese rude.  For all I know,
   | the guy could be bad mouthing the customers.  It is the same as if you
   | were giving a lecture and two people in the front row were whispering to
   | each other.  Rude!
    
    sounds like your a tad thin-skinned.  my guess is that the
    manager was repremanding the waiter and  in chinese
    so that he wouldn't embarrass the patrons and could get on with
    the job at hand.  i'd prefer this than have a lukewarm meal served
    after the manager took the matter off-line in the back of the kitchen.
    anyway, if people talk in their native tongue in an ethnic restaurant
    it's some indication that the food will be the real mccoy.
    
    
    

    > A week ago, I took my wife to a Chinese restaurant.  The manager was
    > speaking kurtly in Chinese to one of the waiters...actually to all the
    > waiters.  First of all, the guy is greatly lacking in protocol;
    > however, I just find his speaking in Chinese rude.  For all I know, the
    > guy could be bad mouthing the customers.  It is the same as if you were
    > giving a lecture and two people in the front row were whispering to
    > each other.  Rude!
    
    While it is clear that you were uncomfortable, it is not so clear that
    the manager was rude.  It is possible that the need to communicate
    clearly necessitated the use of primary language- which may have
    resulted in better service for you and your wife, or some other
    customer.  The worksite where I work most of the time is staffed by
    many people for whom English is not the primary language- and in the
    course of the normal workday I hear several other languages, including
    Hindi, Chinese, and Farsi.  When people are not communicating directly
    with me, I am not at all offended that the requirements of their
    communication take priority over the possibility that I might not
    understand communication not intended for me anyway.  In fact, its a
    useful filter for me.  I can't understand the mindset that chooses to
    take offense in such situations.  If the guy *is* badmouthing the
    customers at least he has the courtesy not to do so in a manner they'd
    understand.  So what's the real issue here, Jack?  
    
    DougO

    
    .113

    >You think this person is here legally?  Maybe he is, maybe he isn't,
    >but you probably shouldn't just assume that he's a legal.
    
    That's *right*.  Anyone who can't speak English should be viewed as
    a potential illegal.  Jack should probably put a call in to INS, just
    to be on the safe side.

    JM:  Hello?  INS?
    
    INS: Buenos dias, senor
    
    JM:  Forget it.
    

    
    > > "...up my behind with a fine tooth comb..."
    > 
    > You desperately need a better metaphor, Jack.   :^)

    actually, I think that's a pretty good description !

    
    re: .117
    
    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA
    
    
    :-)))))
    

    
    Come to think of it, that Colin Walters doesn't strike me as being
    quite right...perhaps HE's an illegal!!
    

    
    Note 551.118

    >actually, I think that's a pretty good description !

    Ummm...I guess...provided Jack has a hairy "behind"...
    
    I'm certain I have no clue on that subject...
    
    :^)
    

    Curses, they're on to me. Time to leg it to Canada.

| <<< Note 551.99 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I press on toward the goal" >>>


| A week ago, I took my wife to a Chinese restaurant. The manager was speaking 
| kurtly in Chinese to one of the waiters...actually to all the waiters. First 
| of all, the guy is greatly lacking in protocol; however, I just find his 
| speaking in Chinese rude. For all I know, the guy could be bad mouthing the 
| customers.  

	Jack, either you are trying to cause controversy, or who have some
pretty bigoted views. First off, it is his restaurant. Why the hell can't he
speak whatever damn language he wants to? Why should he not talk the language
of his choice in the restaurant he either owns or manages? Just because you
feel he should speak english? I guess this guy must be doing pretty bad seeing
he is a manager and all...... maybe even an owner. Hey, it is a Chinese
restaurant. I suppose he should have talked French or something... opps....
only English..... sorry, I forgot. 




Glen

    
    Good idea, Colin.  Just claim "refugee" status or something.  You'll
    be safe for years.  Tell them that you're...ummmm...a victim of...
    ummm...the...the...rising tide of anti-Welsh sentiment...yeah...that's
    it.  Anti-Welsh.
    
    

re: .117


	Pretty funny stuff! Glad I was home when I read it cuz I laughed pretty
loud! :-)


Glen

    
    No, wait a mo - Canada still pays homage to those Royal gits.  Iceland,
    here I come.

re: .99, Our Jack Martin

I haven't been keeping up with a lot of this string, and would have missed
this if another noter hadn't pointed it out in a recent reply that I happened
to catch -

>    A week ago, I took my wife to a Chinese restaurant.  The manager was
>    speaking kurtly in Chinese to one of the waiters...actually to all the
>    waiters.  First of all, the guy is greatly lacking in protocol;
>    however, I just find his speaking in Chinese rude.

Wow, Jack! See, in my opinion, speaking curtly to one's staff in a language
which can't normally be understood by the clientele is much more proper
than the English speaking oafs who yell at their help in front of the 
customers. Whether he lacked protocol has zero to do with the language
he used. But the use of an uncommon language certainly improved, rather
than detracted from the situation in my view.

    Re: .99  ... school and they (the beurocrats) want my daughter to ...
    
    bureaucrats, please!
    
    As of note .99 you have misspelled this word the same way at least
    twice, so I no longer believe it was a typo, but rather laziness or
    ignorance, your choice.
    
    Learning another language, such as French, would assist greatly in
    knowing how to spell bureaucrat.
    
    -- Jim

    
    Actually, when Chinese is spoken, it usually doesn't sound too polite
    to those who do not understand the language.  
    
    
    Mike

    <---- That's correct at least as far as my experience in working in a
    Chinese restaurant goes.  Then again maybe they were always yelling at
    me.  
    

    All right all right...the guy was just annoying because he was yelling
    that's all!  
    
    Meg, that's very convenient of you to state I only like Euro American
    cultures...but unfounded.  My beef with multiculturalist is this. 
    There are Eurocentric bad cultures and there are non Eurocentric good
    cultures...but don't sit there and state that EVERY culture is good.  
    No...a lie from the goo goo's on the left.  There are horrible cultures
    out there...white or non white...pick your poison.
    
    -Jack

    Re: Bureaucrat...I was ignorant of the spelling.  Whatever.  Go have
    some coffee.
    
    -Jack

    
    
    
    
    .131 Be specific. What culture is horrible?
    
    

    > .131 Be specific. What culture is horrible?
    
    Tunafish Yoghurt

    Yes, I believe that would hurt.

>> What culture is horrible?
    
    Transylvania, but they like it that way.
    
    Chris                  

    Nazi Germany for example.  I picked this one in particular lest the PC
    squad swarm me like a cloud of locusts.  I'm not allowed to mention
    countries like Uganda or Cuba...or other puppet dictatorships where
    the masses are persecuted, AIDS and other disease is rampant, the
    people are being starved to death, et cetra...et cetra...et cetra....
    
    Let's put it this way.  Every culture has the ability to be a good
    culture but political forces squelch their ability.  The goo goo
    lefties in this country tend to dig in hopes of finding a precious
    gem...digging deeeep into the earth so that they may proclaim their
    culture as equal to western culture.  Lie!
    
    -Jack 

    Ohh...and please...before any of you ga gaaa's in this conference react
    violently toward me.  Keep in mind that people throughout the world
    would give their left arm to become an American citizen.  So please
    don't patronize us with your nonsense of bigotry and racism.  This is
    about cultures, not about the color of one's skin.
    
    -Jack

    
    <<<mob noises>>>
    
    <<<rattling of farm implements>>>
    

    
    | This is about cultures, not about the color of one's skin.
     
    i thought it was about the do's and don'ts of chinese restaurants.
                                                                     

    
    ......would give their left arm to become an American citizen
    
    So that's where all these armless toilet seat messers are coming from.
    

    Ohhh....forget the Chinese Restaurant...I was just annoyed that the guy
    was acting like an abusive boss in front of the patrons.  
    

RE: 551.142 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I press on toward the goal"

How do you know?  He might have been discussing the babe at the table in
the corner or the latest Red Socks game... Unless you know Mandrin,  that
is,  then you would know.


Phil

       Once again, Jack Martin backtracks awkwardly after being snared by
       his own words:
       
       The backtrack, trying to sound like a nice guy:
       
       .142> forget the Chinese Restaurant...I was just annoyed that 
       .142> the guy was acting like an abusive boss 
       
       The original comment:
       
       .99> I just find his speaking in Chinese rude.  
       
       

    
    
     >Keep in mind that people throughout the world
     >would give their left arm to become an American citizen.
    
      Is this suppose to mean the U.S. has the best culture in the world
      and the proof is that people (Some or alot or all - number unspecified) 
      want to become citizens (not just live here).
    
      We know that some of the very richest members of our 'culture' give up
      their citizenship every year. Does that by-your-logic prove our culture 
      is horrible?
    
      I definitely think you are corrupting the word culture here.
      
      Websters:
      Culture: The customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits
      of a racial,religous or social group.
    
      Governments really don't fit this definition. While someone living
      here from another country could bring their cultural beliefs they
      can't bring their government.
       
                                     

    
    >   We know that some of the very richest members of our 'culture' give up
    >   their citizenship every year.
    
    hhhmmmm very interesting, do you have some examples of this?
    

    
    
    
    
    .146 I don't know how specific I have to get to jolt your memory.
    	 But congress caught some flak earlier this year because they
    	 would not close the tax loop that's been allowing millionaires
    	 (I 'think' it was an average of thirty a year) 
    	 to disavow their citizenship to avoid paying taxes. 
    
    	 If you looked I'm sure you'll find references in this notes file.
    
    

| <<< Note 551.131 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I press on toward the goal" >>>

| All right all right...the guy was just annoying because he was yelling
| that's all!

	Sorry, Jack. We have your words a few notes back that state otherwise.
If you're going to say something that stupid, either apologize for it or stick
to your guns.



Glen

| <<< Note 551.138 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I press on toward the goal" >>>

| So please don't patronize us with your nonsense of bigotry and racism. This is
| about cultures, not about the color of one's skin.

	Jack, do you really believe that bigotry and racism is held to just the
color of ones skin? 


Glen

    Jack, I'd take Glen's advice and do what he does...stick to your
    guns :-)

	Jack Martin, could you please address .144? I've got my program all
cued if you decide to ignore this request. :-)


Glen

    	I think that being multi-lingual is one of the great skills
    	a person can possess.
    
    	I think that bi-lingual education is often the antithesis of 
    	being bi-lingual, or of encouraging people to be multi-lingual.

    Joe,
    
    How is the definition of bilingual education as it is practiced in my
    school district discouraging multilingualism?
    
    English, art and history in English.  math and sciences in the primary
    language until the student is caught up really contributes to not
    learning a language?
    
    just curious.
    
    meg

   <<< Note 551.153 by CSC32::M_EVANS "nothing's going to bring him back" >>>

>    How is the definition of bilingual education as it is practiced in my
>    school district discouraging multilingualism?
    
    	I didn't say YOUR school system, so don't ask me to defend or
    	attack it specifically.  Far too often, though, bi-lingual
    	teaching is nothing more than catering to the student's 
    	unwillingness or inability to learn English, and is nothing
    	more than the ongoing teaching of the lesson in the student's 
    	native language.
    
>    English, art and history in English.  math and sciences in the primary
>    language until the student is caught up really contributes to not
>    learning a language?
    
    	Far too often the phrase "until the student is caught up [in
    	English]" is a no-op.  ***KIDS REMAIN FOR YEARS IN BI-LINGUAL
    	EDUCATION.***  That doesn't indicate to me a program of "catching
    	up".  
    
    	It was that way when I lived in Mass, and to make matters worse,
    	the school district was required to provide instruction in
    	EVERY native language that came into the school -- a subset of
    	which included Greek, French, Laotian, Cambodian, Korean, 
    	Spanish, Portugese -- and those were required to be provided in
    	each school that a (yes, even a single) student attended.  They
    	weren't allowed to consolidate like-tongued students into a
    	building where a qualified bi-lingual teacher resided.
    
    	Back in the earlier half of this century when immigration was
    	much more aggressive, speakers of foreign tongues first took
    	courses in English.  Then after they were lingually-mainstreamed,
    	they went on to do whatevever it was they wanted to do.  They
    	bent to accommodate the society rahter than the way it is today
    	where the society is forced to bend to accommodate them.

	Joe, how old are you???? :-)  The only language that we had to take
when we were kids was French. Otherwise, all that was taught was English. I
live in MA and went to school during the 70's, and to 3 different school
districts.


Glen

    
    	We of the Texas persuasion learn Spanish on the street, by virtue
    of girlfriends, best friends, and enemies, whilst growing up.
    
    	Don't learn it in high school, where Castillian is taught and
    subsequently laughed at by Mexican-Americans.

    	.155
    
    	Glen -- I think you are confusing the learning of a second language
    	with bi-lingual education.
    
    	Bi-lingual education is the teaching of core courses (math,
    	science, geography, etc.) in the non-English-speaking student's
    	native language so that he won't fail the subjects due to the
    	language barrier.  I contend that this practice is like the
    	enabler to an alcoholic -- it enables the student to discount
    	the need to learn English.
    
    	Yes, when I went to school it was much like you described.  "All
    	that was taught was English" (I'm assuming that you were referring
    	to the rest of your classes and not the elective languages courses.)
    	We had a large contingent of Italian students, and those that
    	learned English could keep up in their courses.  Those that did
    	not learn English usually failed or dropped out.  We WERE required
    	in high school to take a minimum of two years of a second language,
    	and our choices were French, Spanish, German, and Latin.  
    
    	As I stated in my first sentence in .152, I think that being fluent 
    	in a second language (or third or fourth...) is a valuable skill, 
    	and I regret today that I did not have that attitude back then, so 
    	I opted for the minimum, and have since lost practically all of it.
    	
    	I'm not sure that anyone here is arguing against learning a
    	second language.  The discussion here is about bi-lingual
    	education.  With that understanding of the term, please re-read
    	the last half of .154 and you'll see why I'm not in favor of
    	bi-lingual education.

       For some reason, Joe, you seem to have an inordinate amount of
       diffculty in understanding the key word here, bi-lingual.
       
       Bi-lingual means two languages.  Bi-lingual means being educated
       in two languages, namely, a language already known to the student,
       and English, which the student has yet to master.
       
       You seem to think that bi-lingual means `one language'.  It
       doesn't; it means two languages.  Two.  That's why it's called
       bi-lingual and not mono-lingual or uni-lingual.  
       
       Now, maybe you believe that bi-lingual education doesn't include
       the teaching of English in the curriculum.  If you've got some
       information to support this, let's hear it.
       
       --Mr Topaz
       
       p.s.: As proff, please don't tell us about n kids in a bilingual
       program who had crummy English skills when they completed some
       level of schooling.  That's as convincing as saying that algebra
       courses ahouldn't be taught because you know some kids who took
       them and can't solve 2x-7=3 for x.
       
       

                    <<< Note 551.158 by CALLME::MR_TOPAZ >>>

>       For some reason, Joe, you seem to have an inordinate amount of
>       diffculty in understanding the key word here, bi-lingual.
>       
>       Bi-lingual means two languages.  Bi-lingual means being educated
>       in two languages, namely, a language already known to the student,
>       and English, which the student has yet to master.
    
    	Now tell it to the NEA.  Currently, and counter to what the
    	definition of the word is SUPPOSED to mean, most bi-lingual
    	education programs teach the student in his native tongue
    	while he takes some English courses -- much in the same manner
    	most U.S. students take Spanish (for example) as a second 
    	language.  Student in current bi-lingual educational programs
    	remain in bi-lingual education for years -- some until they
    	graduate or drop out.  How many high school students learn
    	Spanish (for example) fluently enough to take their Geometry
    	classes in Spanish?  But if you put them in a Spanish-only
    	environment, then within a year they would most likely be
    	able to do it.  My primary point is that common current 
    	programs enable the student to de-emphasize the need for 
    	learning English by allowing him to fall back on his native 
    	language.  My secondary point is that some (and I don't know
    	how widespread this is) school districts require the schools
    	to provide bi-lingual education in ANY non-English language
    	that shows up at the school, overburdening the system by
    	accommodating for even single-student bi-lingual education.
    	
    >       You seem to think that bi-lingual means `one language'. 
    
    	I'd thank you to point out how you arrived at that.

	Mr Topaz, notice how Joe never bothered to address your PS?

    	The PS was answered by the response.  I don't see the need
    	for line-by-line replies.
    
    	If you still disagree with something, Glen, please point it
    	out.

       re .159:
       
       � You seem to think that bi-lingual means `one language'. 
    
       > I'd thank you to point out how you arrived at that.
       
       OK.  Here's what you opined 5 notes previously:
       
       .154> Far too often, though, bi-lingual teaching is nothing more
       .154> than catering to the student's  unwillingness or inability to
       .154> learn English, and is nothing more than the ongoing teaching of
       .154> the lesson in the student's native language. 
       
       I still can't figure out if you're arguing on educational grounds
       (the students would be better off immersed only in English) or on
       economic grounds (I, Joe Oppelt, and my fellow taxpayers would be
       better off if we didn't have to fund a teacher for every kid who
       speaks a different language).  I can understand and in many ways
       agree with the latter, but I think you're out to lunch on the
       former.
       
       --Mr Topaz

    
    Much more importantly, why do I have to pay for this?  God knows I have
    little enough money as it is, why are they spending my money on this?
    

       
       I'm still waiting for your answer about your collegial schooling,
       Brother Killoran.  
       
       Perhaps then we can address the question as to why your tax monies
       might go toward something for which you do not receive the direct
       benefit.

    
    > I'm still waiting for your answer about your collegial schooling,
    > Brother Killoran.  

    knob off little man, your schemes are too transparent to bother with.

| <<< Note 551.165 by DEVLPR::DKILLORAN "Uneasy Rider" >>>



| knob off little man, your schemes are too transparent to bother with.

	Yeah, we're seeing right through you, Dan.

       
       Cowardice runs rampant:  The Dandy one whines about his tax money
       being spent on someone else's schooling, then cries boo-hoo when
       he's asked whether everyone else's tax money supported his higher
       education. 
       
       Put up or shut up, Master Killoran.

    
    T, need I point out that you went through this before?  Will your
    approach be any different this time?  I think not.  You are as
    predictable as the tides.  Have a day little one.

       
       Killoran, it is spineless to complain about someone else getting
       `your' tax monies for their education and then to be silent about
       the benefits that you did or didn't receive.
       
       As long as you continue to complain about your taxes going for
       someone else's benefit, you can expect to be asked about the
       benefits that you received.  
       
       If your schooling included institutions supported by government
       funds, you can expect to be asked why our tax monies should go for
       your education while you whimper about your tax money going for
       someone else's.  If your schooling did not have the benefit of the
       common till, you have nothing to fear.  (Until, that is, the next
       time you open your mouth to change feet.)

    RE: 551.169, CALLME::MR_TOPAZ
    
    Just a question. If someone at sometime in their life participated in a
    program, due to lack of sufficient knowledge at the time, and later
    in that persons life, and after receiving vast amounts of additional
    knowledge, discovers that he does not support the program for whatever
    reason, is he still required to support it, due to his previous
    participation?

       re .170:
       
       No.
       
       

    Mr. Topaz:
    
    I just paid off two college student loans with Education Loan Services.
    By your .169, apparently it is spineless for me to ridicule our
    educational system because I am already a member of the club??  Not
    really sure I follow especially after your .171.
    
    -Jack

    
    Donny, you're argument has a hole in it I could drive my truck
    through ( see your own .171)  But much more interesting to me is that
    you seem to think that bi-lingual (sp?) education is a good thing.  I
    disagree with this.  I do not see this as a valuable item.  This is
    why I am opposed to funding it.

    
      Topes may be surprised to learn that there are billions of people
     the world over working within systems they consider outrageously
     stupid.  By his lights, these people have no right to complain,
     since they participate in what they criticize.
    
      My view is the opposite.  If my company, or my government, or my
     wife, puts in an irrational incentive system, I behave in the
     irrational way that gets rewarded, complaining all the while how
     dumb it is.  And I see no hypocrisy whatever in doing so.
    
      bb

 
    .172, Jack:
          
       >...it is spineless to complain about someone else getting
       >`your' tax monies for their education and then to be silent 
                                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
       >about the benefits that you did or didn't receive.
    
    THIS is what Don's on about, Jack: the deafening silence.  Kirby
    smells a trap, and clams up, little realizing he's already been caught.
    
    "Can I get some numbers on that?"
    
    "Do you have some examples?"
    
    "Can you back that up with, say, facts?"
    
    "IYO, HTH."
       

    >re .170:
    
    >       No.
    
    Then I would guess that Dan doesn't need to justify his opinion, simply
    because he may have participated in a program that he now feels is
    wrong.

    
    .176

    >...he may have participated in a program that he now feels is wrong.
    
    Dan's never said he that he "now feels" any program he "may have part-
    icipated in" is wrong.  In fact, he hasn't said anything.  He's playing 
    his cards pretty close to his chest.
    

    re: .177
    
    True enough, it just seemed to me, and I could be wrong, that Mr. Topaz
    was trying to push Dan into the "how can you justify opposing it now
    when you participated in it" corner.

    
    .178,
    
    Well, if that corner is so easily defended, then Dan shouldn't have
    any trouble offerring a straight answer to Don's question.
    
    For someone who bleats constantly for "examples", "facts", and other
    supporting data, Dan proves to be pretty slippery under direct
    questioning.
    

    re: .179
    
    see .172
    
    This is kind of strange. I'm usually not in the position of defending Dan. 
    In this case I agree with him.

    
    <------------
    
    Ohmigod!  What did I do wrong?!?!?
    

    Well...good things do become corrupt.  When an educational system is
    ranked 13th amongst progressive countries, then one has to conclude
    there is a problem.  
    
    Problems as I see them are the NEA which is the most destructive
    element of public education, the sensitivity crap which we have already
    addressed, and the dysfunctionalism in society which propogates
    illiteracy and poor academics.  The poor children are being victimized
    by their own environment, the union schmucks who feels society owes
    them, and the goo goo's who promote outcome based education.  This is 
    why I believe in privatization. 
    
    -Jack 

       re .182:
       
       Please explain how privatization helps poor children.
       
       This ought to be good.

    Topes:
    
    You will be satisfied to hear that I don't have an answer for you.  But
    does this mean we continue the status quo in the inner city school
    system??  Do we continue to have schools with unruly kids...with
    violence...where the illigitamacy rate is amazingly high and is getting
    higher...where the recruitment of teachers in these areas poses a great
    challenge.  How about this...are you willing to send your children
    there Topes?  Jesse Jackson sure as heck isn't...he's not stupid. 
    Neither is Clinton or the rest of his administration.
    
    Topes, it is your ilk that made the public school system what it is
    today.  How do you propose to clean it up!

    
    .180
    
    >see .172
    
    See my reply in .175.  Again, the point is *not* that Dan is right or
    wrong, the point is that Dan is unwilling, or more probably, unable to 
    defend his position against Topes, so he adopts the old "I'm not gonna 
    play your game" tactic, as if we'll all be fooled by it.  I'm suprised, 
    Tom.  You wouldn't be put off so easily, why would you expect Don to?
    
    >This is kind of strange. I'm usually not in the position of defending Dan. 
    
    I feel you pain.  :^)
    
    However, in theory, Dan *should* be able to defend himself.
    

    In a free/capitalistic society, it is in the best interest of the
    businesses in that society to have a pool of educated individuals to draw
    from. If government got out of the education business, with all its
    inefficiencies and government abuse, business would have to take up the 
    slack of educating individuals, to meet their needs. Businesses would 
    freely educate these individuals, those who are willing to make the effort,
    in order to meet the demand. Government sponsored education today is just
    another failing welfare program. A program which continually degrades
    the education level of the country while wasting more and more of our
    hard earned money, money that the politicians do not have to earn but
    are given the power steal. Politicians do not know how to
    educate. Politicians do not know the needs of an expanding economy.
    Politicians only know how to force their will on the populas. This
    force continues to negatively affect our economy and every facet of our
    lives. If government programs for education, the poor, drugs, or
    anything else worked, after all these years of their forced rules and
    regulation and the wasting of our money, the US would have the most
    education population, the least number of poor and no drug problem.
    However, these government programs don't work, they only feed the
    problems. Get them out of our lives and soon these problems will be
    solved.

RE: 551.186 by DASHER::RALSTON "There is no god but you."

> In a free/capitalistic society, it is in the best interest of the
> businesses in that society to have a pool of educated individuals to draw
> from. If government got out of the education business, with all its
> inefficiencies and government abuse, business would have to take up the 
> slack of educating individuals, to meet their needs. 

It's in the best interest of each and every business that there is a pool 
of educated individuals,  but it's in the best interest of each and every 
business that some other business pay for this education.


Phil

    
> It's in the best interest of each and every business that there is a pool 
> of educated individuals,  but it's in the best interest of each and every 
> business that some other business pay for this education.

    Unarguably true, but if need be, the business will train its employees. 
    GE used to have an apprentice program for machine operators and welders. 
    If you work in construction, having to train new help goes with the
    turf.  It's better to train them right, then to have to go back and fix
    their screw ups.

| <<< Note 551.184 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I press on toward the goal" >>>


| You will be satisfied to hear that I don't have an answer for you.  

	You used the poor people as a reason to go to it, yet you can't provide
an answer for how it will work? Wow, Jack, this is a new one. Even for you.

| But does this mean we continue the status quo in the inner city school system?
| Do we continue to have schools with unruly kids...with violence...where the 
| illigitamacy rate is amazingly high and is getting higher...where the 
| recruitment of teachers in these areas poses a great challenge.  

	Now the answer for this is obvious. No. What I would ask of you is how
would you correct this problem?

| How about this...are you willing to send your children there Topes?  Jesse 
| Jackson sure as heck isn't...he's not stupid.

	The Jessie thing again. How nice. How does that solve the problem? It
doesn't. How does that make your idea for privatizing legitimate? It doesn't.

| Topes, it is your ilk that made the public school system what it is today. How
| do you propose to clean it up!

	No, Jack, your ilk is. Let me show you why. All along you talk about
would you send your kids there. But where is the plan? 



Glen

    Knowing the way our "market" capitalism has worked, the educational
    needs of most will go unmet, while the businesses move to countries
    that actually GAS about educating their people.  

 ZZ   No, Jack, your ilk is. Let me show you why. All along you talk
 ZZ   about would you send your kids there. But where is the plan? 
    
    Glen, my ilk doesn't institute or believe in touchy feeley.  It doesn't
    promote the sensitivity schtick or the outcome based poop.  My ilk 
    believes in education that makes students excell and builds the
    character trait of self determination.
    
    As far as ideas go, I believe the bad kids are basically ruining it for
    those who want to learn.  I promote the idea of military schools for
    deviants.  I promote the notion of standards and strong discipline.  I
    promote the separation of adults from students and believe it needs to
    be strongly enforced.  I believe in rewarding for achievement, I
    believe there needs to be ramifications for one's actions.  
    
    I don't believe in the ADD schtick, I don't believe a deviant child is
    societies fault.  I don't believe it is the responsibility of society
    to act as a surrogate for children.  It is definitely not the
    responsibility of the teachers.  
    
    It has been proven that schools which compete offer a better service to
    the student, do you deny this?  Where we do see eye to eye is for
    teachers to be solid role models, the parents need to take an active
    role, the need for activities for students to build cohesiveness, the
    need for strong academics.  I think a firing of 65% of the social
    workers in the Boston school system would be a good start.  
    
    -Jack 

| <<< Note 551.191 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I press on toward the goal" >>>

| Glen, my ilk doesn't institute or believe in touchy feeley. It doesn't promote
| the sensitivity schtick or the outcome based poop. My ilk believes in 
| education that makes students excell and builds the character trait of self 
| determination.

	You left one part of it off, though. If you're poor, you're screwed.
You all but said that when you didn't have an answer to Mr Topaz's question for
"your" plan.

	As far as your plan goes, you can't be serious.



Glen

    Oppps....Attention.  Glen Silva needs a paradigm shift!
    
    Yes Glen, my ideas are not foreign in other societies.  They work, they
    build respect, character, integrity, and all the other traits molding
    a students person.  Yes Glen, not everybody thinks it's societies
    fault!
    
    I am very serious about discipline...very serious about respect, very
    serious about standards.  Which one of these are you having a difficult
    time with?
    
    Re: The poor.  Glen, I'm poor.  I deliver papers to send my son to
    Christian school.  It works.
    
    
    -Jack

	Jack, you wanted something. You did not have the money for the EXTRA
thing. You found a way to get the money. Does that really make you poor? If we
were to pool the money from your regular job, do you think any in here would
think you're poor? One living a lifestyle that is beyond their means does not
classify someone as being poor, just as living beyond their means. (I am not
saying you do this as I don't know what you make to begin with)


Glen

    RE: Phil
    
    >It's in the best interest of each and every business that there is a
    >pool of educated individuals,  but it's in the best interest of each and
    >every business that some other business pay for this education.
    
    Business don't make a profit by waiting for someone else to do what
    they need to have done. Business always through thinking and action
    solve the problems required to support their business. Training and
    education is required by any profitable business. And yes, some other
    businesses and individuals will benefit from the education supplied by
    others. This is good, everyone benefits, unlike government programs
    where something is taken from one place to support another.
    
    RE: Meg
    
    >Knowing the way our "market" capitalism has worked, the educational
    >needs of most will go unmet, while the businesses move to countries
    >that actually GAS about educating their people.
    
    The market capitalism doesn't work in this country as it would under
    free and open capitalism. Why, because government control and regulation
    bastardizes the capitalistic system. The present control by government
    over the economy forces business to operate in a corrupt system to
    survive. Businesses move where it is profitable for them. Eliminate the
    the regulation that ties the hands of business and this country becomes
    that place. 

    This whole thing has wandered all over the place, but in spite of
    that I'll ask a more-or-less rhetorical question, and then offer
    a suggestion.
    
    Rhetorical question:  If I pack up my family and move to, say, Norway,
    what experience will be awaiting my kids in the Norwegian school
    system?
    
    Suggestion:  How long does it take an average non-English-speaking
    student to become fluent enough in English (studying nothing but
    English full time) to be able to succeed in "mainstream" classes? 
    Call that length of time "x" years.  Now, instead of all this endless
    "classes in my very own language" stuff that we do now, how about
    making every incoming foreign student take "x" years in intensive,
    full-time English As A Second Language courses, with no other
    classwork?  Then when they're ready, they can just go into the
    regular classes along with everyone else, plus they have a working
    knowledge of the language in their new home, so they have a fighting
    chance to get out of the back room.
    
    It's fine of course to be bilingual or multilingual (I can't even see
    how this confusion got started), but if you want to get anywhere in
    this country, it's important to know English.
    
    Chris

    re: .196
    
    Actually you will find that many countries already teach 
    English as a second language, and begin teaching it in the
    very early grade.
    
    The United States is the country which has insisted for many
    years that our citizens do not need the benefit of a second language.
    Personally I think that has cost us in terms of English grammar,
    tolerance of other cultures, and made us a very arrogant and
    self-centered people.
    
    Mary-Michael (tri-lingual)
    

>    The United States is the country which has insisted for many
>    years that our citizens do not need the benefit of a second language.

Untrue, and it misses the point. I don't know of any kid who's graduated from
HS in the US who wasn't expected to take a second language course for a year
minimum, and most schools offer at least two if not four years of advanced
second language studies, so the bit about "don't need the benefit of a second
language" is without substance. And, as far as the non-english speaking
students in American schools, many public schools right here in New England
(especially in areas which have a high concentration of non-English speaking
residents) have an English As Second Language course available. This is not
the issue. The issue is about teaching the normal academic subjects in 
OTHER THAN English.

    re: .198
    
    It may be untrue in your part of the country, it wasn't
    in mine.  I was in high school in the late seventies, and
    while some exposure to a foreign language was encouraged from
    the 7th grade on, it was certainly not a requirement.  As a 
    matter of fact, I ran into trouble finishing my bachelor's
    degree in French for this reason.  I had started French in
    the 7th grade and taken it straight through.  By my sophomore
    year in college I was taking graduate level courses since they
    did not often run into students who had had that much exposure
    to the language who weren't actually French.
    
    I honestly don't see why we can't make it easy for students
    who can't speak English to get up to speed in their schoolwork.
    Better educated citizens vote, get involved in their government,
    read and have better jobs and careers.  I don't see why we
    shouldn't encourage this any way we can, no matter what language
    they speak.  In fact, it would also be great if students who
    were studying a second or third language did have some of
    their academic courses in that language.  Nothing strengthens
    language skills like having to use them to survive. I admit
    this course can only be used with students who already have
    strong skills in the subject matter being taught, but I should
    think it would be one way to accomodate bright students who
    were bored in regular classes.
    
    Mary-Michael
    

    
    re:.191

    > I promote the idea of military schools for deviants.  

    What a waste of good schooling...  What if the deviants screw up in the
    military school?

    > I promote the notion of standards and strong discipline.

    Make that HIGH standards, and I'll agree with you.

    > I promote the separation of adults from students and believe it 
    > needs to be strongly enforced.  

    eeerrr...I missed you on this one.  What do you mean?

    > I believe in rewarding for achievement, I believe there needs to be 
    > ramifications for one's actions.  

    mandatory.

    What exactly is a "deviant child"?

    > I think a firing of 65% of the social workers in the Boston school 
    > system would be a good start.  

    Here your wrong Jack, you've gotta can at least 85% of them, or they'll
    just breed more.   :-)

    re:.194

    > Jack, you wanted something. You did not have the money for the EXTRA
    > thing. You found a way to get the money. 

    Glen, you've just discovered the solution to the problem of the poor. 
    If they want it badly enough, they'll find a way to do it.

    > Does that really make you poor?

    > One living a lifestyle that is beyond their means does not classify 
    > someone as being poor...

    You are correct, that makes you broke, not poor.

>    they speak.  In fact, it would also be great if students who
>    were studying a second or third language did have some of
>    their academic courses in that language.  Nothing strengthens
>    language skills like having to use them to survive. I admit

So, then you are in favor of non-English speaking students being immersed
in English in their academic courses.

    ZZ    > I promote the separation of adults from students and believe it 
    ZZ    > needs to be strongly enforced.  
    
    ZZ    eeerrr...I missed you on this one.  What do you mean?
    
    Sorry.  I was thinking of the show Welcome Back Kotter.  In this show,
    Kotter acts like a boob...he's trying to relate to the kids and that is
    fine; however, he often relates too much and identifies to the point
    where he is a peer to them, and the respect goes down.  I believe there
    has to be a line drawn in the minds of teachers and students...where
    the students understand the authority figure of the teacher.  Believe
    me, the over relating happens a lot.
    
    Mary Michael, keep in mind there is a difference between bilingualism
    and bilingual education.  I think you got the two mixed up.  I took
    four years of Spanish and our school offered 10 different languages. 
    Furthermore, each language had a club that met after school.  It was a 
    wonderful way to learn about other cultures and gain proficiency at
    other languages.
    
    Just make sure our students learn English as the primary language in
    order to excell and have the same opportunities as other children.  It
    is our responsibility to expose our children to other cultures but it
    is NOT our responsibility to preserve other cultures.
    
    -Jack

    re: .202
    
    Actually, Jack, I do think it is our responsibility to help 
    preserve other cultures.  It is part of our national heritage
    as a "great melting pot".  It isn't a "great smelting pot",
    we don't go in one thing and come out another.  Yes we are
    all Americans and are all proud of it.  But we are also
    something else.  If someone asks you in conversation,
    "what's Martin?" do you answer, "American."  Well, you
    may :-), but most people would answer something along the
    lines of "my mother was German, my father was French" or
    whatever.  I'm an American first, but I am also of Scottish
    and Irish heritage.  And I know and celebrate that heritage.
    Living here together under the banner of one country gives
    us a marvelous opportunity to sample and understand other
    cultures as we see them in our friends and neighbors, and
    within our community.  If we could learn not to fear these
    cultures, but instead to use the best ideas of each of them
    to build our community, wouldn't that make this country a 
    better place to live?
    
    Yes, I think non-English speaking students should have some
    degree of immersion.  I also think English speaking students 
    should have the same degree of immersion in the language of
    their choice.  
    
    Mary-Michael
    

    ZZ  I also think English speaking students 
    ZZ    should have the same degree of immersion in the language of
    ZZ    their choice.  
    
    The bottom line is this.  If they don't have a grasp of the English
    language, they will NOT have the opportunities opened to them.
    
    -Jack

  <<< Note 551.197 by SMURF::MSCANLON "alliaskofmyselfisthatiholdtogether" >>>

>    Actually you will find that many countries already teach 
>    English as a second language, and begin teaching it in the
>    very early grade.
    
    	But how many of them teach English-only-speaking students in
    	English for core classes because the English-only-speaking 
    	student doesn't know the local language?  THAT's what's being
    	argued against here.  What you been discussing is great, and
    	I don't hear anyone arguing against it.
    
>    The United States is the country which has insisted for many
>    years that our citizens do not need the benefit of a second language.
    
    	Contrary to the arguments that opposed this statement, I agree
    	with it to a certain degree.  Oh, sure, there are many school
    	districts across this nation that require one or two years of
    	a foreign language for high school graduation, but I consider
    	that lip service to the need for foreign language.  Very few
    	students will be fluent in that language (or even conversant 
    	a year after the fact) after two years of High school language.
    	Oh, perhaps they'll be able to recite a few lines of foreign
    	dialogue about spinach or whatever else they memorized in class,
    	and they'll probably be able to say, "My name is ...", and
    	hello and goodbye, and maybe they'll even be able to ask where
    	the bathroom is, but they'd be absolutely lost if they were
    	suddenly dumped into that culture.
    
    	And yes, I agree with you that the USA culture generally expects 
    	everyone else to be able to speak English to them -- even outside
    	of the USA.
    
    	Many other countries turn out students who are fluent in second
    	and third languages.  As I said way back when I forst entered
    	this discussion, I think this is a tremendous asset.
    
.199>    I honestly don't see why we can't make it easy for students
>    who can't speak English to get up to speed in their schoolwork.
    
    	Continuing to cater to their native tongue allows them to 
    	cling to it and allows them to get by without a grasp of
    	English.  I suggest that they take a full 6-12 months of
    	English only, and then they can be put back into public
    	education.  So maybe they are a year behind after that. 
    	So what.
    
>    Better educated citizens vote, get involved in their government,
>    read and have better jobs and careers.  
    
    	And some communities have English as their official language,
    	thereby eliminating the need to print ballots and public
    	documents in multiple languages.  Foreigners that weren't
    	mainstreamed in Enlish will not be able to participate.
    
>    In fact, it would also be great if students who
>    were studying a second or third language did have some of
>    their academic courses in that language.  Nothing strengthens
>    language skills like having to use them to survive. 
    
    	You make my case against bi-lingual education as it exists now.
    

| <<< Note 551.200 by DEVLPR::DKILLORAN "Uneasy Rider" >>>


| Glen, you've just discovered the solution to the problem of the poor. If they 
| want it badly enough, they'll find a way to do it.

	If one can find the work, yeah. Now if a single family parent wants to
work at night, like Jack (he delivers papers 3 late nights a week), then I'm
sure no one will object to their children being left at home. You can't
generalize with this. Like everything else, it has to be done on an individual
basis.

| > One living a lifestyle that is beyond their means does not classify
| > someone as being poor...

| You are correct, that makes you broke, not poor.

	Oh no....... I can't believe it. We agree on something! :-)

    
    	I just heard a cleaning person singing "Volare".
    
    	If he were better educated, he could be singing "Itsy Bitsy Teeny
    	Weeny Yellow Polka Dot Bikini", or "The Witch Doctor" instead.
    
    	I feel so bad for him.
    

    
    Woa... oh...OH...oh...
    

	Shawn..... that was too damn funny! :-)

> | You are correct, that makes you broke, not poor.
> 
> 	Oh no....... I can't believe it. We agree on something! :-)
    
    Don't jump to conclusions Chumly, you could hurt yourself...
    
> BUSY::SLABOUNTY "A swift kick in the butt - $1"
    
    eeerrr....Shawn, you got a dollar?  I have something for you that you
    REALLY need.... ;-)
    
    

    
    >eeerrr....Shawn, you got a dollar?  I have something for you that you
    >REALLY need.... ;-)
    
    
    	Good deal!!  That usually costs me $20 in the city.  8^)
    

    
    
    
    .204  
    
    
    >    The bottom line is this.  If they don't have a grasp of the English
    >    language, they will NOT have the opportunities opened to them.
    
    >    -Jack
    
     Bottom line is Jack...Bilingual Education gives students a grasp of
     Science, Math and other core classes without this they will NOT have
     opportunities opened to them.
    
     That your assumtion that English will not be learned with this program
     has no earthly grounds in reality.
    
     It's about time you admit that.
    
    

    I recently heard an interesting topic discussed on the news; 'Should
    English be the official language of the U.S.'?.  Believe it or not,
    only a few states have adopted English as the official language.
    
    What do you think?

    
    Topic 551?
    

    
    	Well, Joan, at least you phrased your answer in the form of a
    	question, but it hardly seems to be of any relevance.
    
    	8^)