Conference back40::soapbox

 allowed

 Shannon Faulkner





 nnttm

    Wait, wait, .1 -- methinks he LIKES wymminz when they ain't aloud.
    
    That's kinda his point donchaknow...  :-)
    

    Umm....
    
    VMI is quite definitely all male.
    
    Each new governor seems to try to make it a
    political issue to force the school to go co-ed.
    
    Always good for some blistering editorials from the Richmond papers...
    
    As for the topic:
    Nothing wrong in my book with private single-sex schools. Wouldn't send
    my kid to one, though.

    
    In Jack's 502.0, he mentioned Virginia Military Academy as being 
    all female.  As far as I know, there is no such place.  There is
    (as -.1 can attest) Virginia Military Institute (VMI), which was
    allowed to remain all male when they opened a military program
    for women at a nearby school.
    
    VMI grads would be very, ummm, interested to know that they
    went to an all-female school...;-)
    
    The Citadel's latest problem with Shannon Faulkner is that she
    is too fat to meet current cadet standards.  Cadets are routinely
    denied admittance if they exceed Army weight guidelines by more
    than twenty pounds.  Shannon's lawyer has stated that it is
    "not in keeping with their standards of gentlemanly behavior" for
    the school to bring up the matter of her excess baggage.
    
    Oh, are they also not being gentlemen when they keep out fat male
    cadets?
    
    
    
    
    Rob
     

    No doubt she expects to be the exception to other standards as well...
    
    I have a tough time with this one. On the one hand, I think that people
    ought to be able to do what they want regardless of gender or color,
    etc. On the other hand, it would seem that there is value added in
    having (at least some) single gender schools. I can't escape the notion
    that she is doing this for the publicity... Part of me says to just let
    her in and judge her with the same yardstick used on everybody else,
    and if she makes it give her the same accolades everybody else gets,
    but if she doesn't, make no special allowances. But while no special
    allowances should be made, they shouldn't go out of their way to make
    it harder on her either. And I don't think that they ought to make any
    special allowances for her in terms of hair length, either. If the
    standard is a crew cut, then crew cut it is.
    
     The recent case of a woman fighter pilot who crashed her F14 should
    give us all pause. Apparently, the standards for female pilots are
    lower than the standards for male pilots in terms of test scores,
    simulation results, etc. And it would appear that the crash was a
    direct result of these lower standards, to wit, two of the three things
    she had trouble with during training (which would have DQ'ed her had
    she been male) were things she did wrong on her fatal flight.
    
     I have no problem with women being fighter pilots; in fact I think
    that's a good place for them since women's differences (like upper body
    strength) are not a disadvantage. However, they absolutely must be held
    to the same standards as men; the standards ought not be seen as being
    per gender but per job.

	Jack, since it's your basenote, what do you think are the
	benefits? 

    Not only that, but what good do you think would come of it?  

    .5 Well said!!
    

Then there's the problem of bathroom usage.  I mean,
you let one in and you're gonna havta make restrooms
for 'em.  After that, tampon machines.  Then, you 
gotta put up with the PMS.  Not to mention the sexual
tension the boyz will experience, even if they are fat.

    are you for real???
    
    

    I donno. I would like to say nice things about this string.. ... and I
    try to see it both ways. With the fighter pilot, welcome to real world.
    She probably was very well trained, and I rather doubt that there is a
    training issue here. I think that its more, when you mess with the gods
    your bond to get burnt. Remember that there are many Men before her who
    have burried themselfs a grave well beyond Marc2 into a hill side. And
    few tears have been shed over them, execpt it. I guess.
    
    

    What is wrong with having a school as single gendered?  Why can't
    people respect this?  
    
    
    -steve

re .9

That actually was a real problem for the couple of dozen Co-Techs at Georgia
Tech in the late sixties.  There were several buildings on campus (Lyman Hall
Laboratory of Chemistry, for example) which had no restrooms for women.

/john

Was there Kotex in the Co-Techs?

    >What is wrong with having a school as single gendered?
    
     Nothing, so long as an equivalent education can be obtained for the
    other gender elsewhere.

    WRT Falkner and the Citadel, she was within weight standards when she
    was accepted, and had they not forbidden her entrance then she would
    have stayed in shape (cadets *do*).  So if she doesn't make the
    standards now because she's been fighting a court case instead of being
    enrolled its partly their fault.  Give Faulkner a corrective action
    program after she's enrolled and give her the chance.  I do not support
    any institution, especially a publicly endowed one like the Citadel
    (they're a land-grant school) having the power to discriminate on
    admissions criteria for gender.
    
    .0 was a deliberate Citadel swipe at VMI (all female) not an innocent
    mistake.  Boys will be boys, you know, and some military school boys
    never outgrow playing male one-upsmanship games with each other.  Learn
    to spot the silly swagger, downgrade your estimate of the source's
    intelligence a few notches, and move on.
    
    > The recent case of a woman fighter pilot who crashed her F14 should
    > give us all pause. Apparently, the standards for female pilots are
    > lower than the standards for male pilots in terms of test scores,
    > simulation results, etc.
    
    I never got full news reports of this- the information that came out
    was contradictory, and I considered it an unverified rumor.  Did you
    get different information?  
    
    DougO

    Here I am.  Going to the DVN now but would like to briefly explain.
    
    Sorry about aloud...realized the error on the way in today and figured
    I'd get more abuse over such a simple word than I did.  Thank you for
    your graciousness.  Also, I thought Brudnoy had stated VMA (I) was an
    all women military academy....so again my mistake.  My lack of
    sensitivity in the basenote was actually in hopes to kind of shake a
    bee hive and get alot of involvement and variety of opinions.  I see
    the traditions of certain schools as one gendered as a benefit to those
    who wish to participate in them.  There are, for example, many benefits
    to the Citadel being all male.  There is no social stigmas going on
    between the cadets, there is none of the typical leftist nonsense you
    see at places such as Harvard, UPenn, and Yale.  The Citadel has a
    reputation for excellence...and this means that fat men, fat women,
    whatever...cannot participate because they don't meet standards.  If I
    tried to attend, I would be laughed out of the office so I include
    myself in that list of horizontally challenged.
    
    All men and all women schools are freed from the distractions of the
    opposite sex.  On average, there are fewer discipline problems, the
    students maintain a decorum of respect for the faculty, and the
    teachers can in essence pour their lives into the students with fewer
    problems.  Furthermore, scholastically these schools produce better
    students...both men and women alike.
    
    But the biggie I see here is that traditionally, the Citadel has
    maintained standards of excellence.  The military is not supposed to be
    a career.  It is a group of men and women with similar cause...to kill
    people and to break things.  Ms. Faulkner doesn't have the drive
    necessary to get through the Citadel based on what she has said!
    
    -Jack

    >I never got full news reports of this- the information that came out
    >was contradictory, and I considered it an unverified rumor.  Did you
    >get different information?  
    
     I read something about it earlier this week or last week, but it
    wasn't a press release about any report into the incident. It may have
    been an op-ed piece, so the facts may or may not be as stated. I was
    skimming and not paying strict attention.

    
      Well, I attended such a college - I won't say when.  It changed
     from all-male to co-ed in the 70's or so, for outright financial
     reasons.  The male applicant pool just wasn't big enough.
    
      So far as I can tell, it makes practically no difference.  We did
     not live as monks, you know.  There was a female college downstreet.
    
      bb

>>       <<< Note 502.17 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I press on toward the goal" >>>
    
>>    But the biggie I see here is that traditionally, the Citadel has
>>    maintained standards of excellence.  The military is not supposed to be
>>    a career.  It is a group of men and women with similar cause...to kill
>>    people and to break things.  Ms. Faulkner doesn't have the drive
>>    necessary to get through the Citadel based on what she has said!

	So, let me get this straight here - does your concern rest with
	Shannon Faulkner and what you perceive to be her lack of drive, or with
	preserving single-gendered institutions in general, as the basenote
	would tend to indicate?  In other words, is Shannon a red
	herring?
	

.10  are you for real???

Yup.  And in some circles, so are the attitudes
expressed in .9.

    I'm not sure there are any.  And I have some experience in this 
    area, I spent 3 years in an all-girl private high school
    (would've graduated, but the school closed).  
    
    Life isn't single-gendered,  why should school be?  Segregation 
    doesn't teach you anything about getting along with the other gender.
    
    If we weren't taught from birth to treat each other differently,
    it wouldn't matter in the least.  Perhaps THAT is what should
    change.
    
    Mary-Michael

	maybe we need some sort of a little
	sarcasm symbol to avoid these situations.
	whaddya think, Oph?

	i'd be using it all the time.

    
    jack is right... not that his delivery couldn't use a bit
    of polish, mind you... but as we strive to homogenize
    sexual identity we lose sight of the fact that we
    compromise the training of men -- who presently are the only
    ones allowed to engage in combat -- by establishing physical
    standards that both sexes can meet. sorry goilz, but
    the truth is that while they may be equally matched
    among themselves, you would be hard pressed to produce
    a specimen from your sex that a marine couldn't grind
    into a pulp in a nanosecond. if given a choice between
    fighting units consisting of

    1. a bunch of sexist pigs who happen to kick ass...

    2. a nice group of sensytyve people who wish everyone could
       just get along...

    guess where my money is when the fertilizer hits the
    ventilator?

    -b

    
    
    Homogonize sexual Identitiy??  Where's that Box word/phrases
    topic?!?!?!?!?!?!?  :*))
    
    
    
    Terrie
    

    re :.24
    
    Whoeee, isn't *that* special?!  Where's your smiley face?
    
    So our only two choices for combat are groups of men who
    think with their brain and groups of men who won't wrestle 
    with unimportant things like verbal skills and a three digit IQ? 
    
    So there is no value in intelligent thought, only in
    armed conflict?
    
    So men who are ill-bred and violent are more useful to
    society than men who can think and feel?
    
    Oohhhh, I love your world.....:-)
    
    Mary-Michael
    

    
    I saw a good program a while back about women pilots who used to ferry
    Spitfires and Hurricanes from factories to airfields during WWII.   
    Most of them clocked up hundreds more flying hours than the average
    male pilot, and a few even got into scrapes with marauding ME109s.  (As
    the delivery planes were unarmed, they had to be very good at evasive
    flying).  Many of the women pilots interviewed said they would have
    welcomed a chance to fight.
    
    Colin
    

.29

This kind of story should be kept under
lock and key.  It simply serves to demystify
the AXIOM that men do it better!

    
    Are we discussing the same woman pilot (from however long ago) that
    crashed because of engine failure, not pilot error?
    
    Or is there another one?
    
    

Well, someone reported that
she just, well, didn't cut the mustard.  But
then he backed off immediately when Doug O. asked
him to prove his statement.

    
>>    Are we discussing the same woman pilot (from however long ago) that
>>    crashed because of engine failure, not pilot error?

	that's what i was wondering too.  

    If anyone is truly interested, I can do what I can to extract "facts"
    from several flying magazines about the female pilot cutting/not
    cutting the mustard.
    
    There are no test scores, as the Navy did not release those - only
    interviews with other people in her unit who claimed that she received
    preferential treatment to compensate for her low proficiency scores.

    > other people in her unit who claimed
    
    These "other people" wouldn't all be male flyers, now, would they,
    hmmmm...?

    Keep in mind that I also inferred men who go to Wellesley are most
    likely ugly hard up individuals who have delusions of
    grandeur...thinking they are going to be surrounded by babes when the
    fact is they'll still be ugly when they graduate.
    
    I wasn't just picking on Shannon.
    
    -Jack

  >  men who go to Wellesley are most
  >  likely ugly hard up individuals who have delusions of
  >  grandeur

Then after they graduate, they land a job at DEC.

    
    .24

    so how was that career in the NFL? the one where you played
    next to the 6'5", 300 lb guy who could benchpress a pickup
    truck? what, you mean you didn't have one? now, why was
    that? because I'm a sexist pig, or because you're not 6'5"
    300 lbs? neither am i; despite a great deal of interest,
    it kept me out of the nfl... probably kept you out too.

    look, in general, do what you want, go where you want,
    etc.etc. doesn't matter much to me. but i was talking
    specifically about jack's example regarding the citadel...
    if you want to use me as the general case sexism poster
    child, go for it, but you'd be wrong. my concerns
    lay entirely in those areas where the physical (and
    perhaps psychological) characteristics of men make them
    better suited for certain jobs... jobs which make up
    a small minority of jobs in the workplace... with that
    behind us:
    
    please tell me, if you would be so kind, why men, who are
    the only ones doing the actual fighting (forget the pilot
    boloney, i'm talking about the ones slogging it out
    on the ground) are training with women? isn't that what
    the citadel is for? training? men? for fighting?

    what's the point (besides not wanting to be annoyed to
    death arguing about it) of allowing women to train to
    fight in combat roles, if... women can't fight in combat
    roles? what's the point of paying for a whole bunch of
    soldiers who can't fight in combat roles? so, stan
    wants to be called loretta and have babies... what's
    the point?

    fine, complain until they let women fight in combat
    roles, and then we can argue some more about whether
    women should be at the citadel.

    and talk about being sexist... you mind rethinking the part
    of your note which implies that the men who fit my idea of
    a good soldier are all morons? my idea of a good soldier
    is a killing machine. if that's not your idea of a good
    soldier, perhaps you are suggesting what i sarcastically
    referred to as a "sensytyve" soldier in my previous
    note. if you agree with my definition, than please
    explain to me how i'm being sexist when i believe that
    men make better killing machines (for various physical
    _and_ psychological reasons).
    
    the argument for allowing woman into the citadel is
    that the school receives public funds... yes it does;
    for the purpose of creating marines. combat soldiers.
    people who can and will kill and be killed.
    
    should women be payed the same as men for the same
    job. yes! should women be allowed every opportunity
    to advance in the workplace that men are? yes! should
    men and women be competing over every known job in
    the universe? no. should every known instiution be
    forced into being co-ed? no.
    
    -b

    
    Without wanting to delve too deeply into this discussion:
    
    How has the recruitment of women into combat roles affected the
    highly-regarded Israeli military?
    

    
      Gee, somehow I see this as much less a Battle-of-the-Sexes thing
     and much more a How-times-and-theories-have-changed thing.  Back
     when I attended a (completely nonmilitary) school, I didn't get a
     degree in Computer Science, because there was no such thing - they
     called us Applied Math.  The place was male, not for any exclusionary
     reason.  Since the men's school had a limited language program, and
     our sister school lacked good lab facilities, both could cross
     register, and I attended classes at both over the years.
    
      No, the split-up of the sexes was for one reason only - a failed
     attempt to suppress sexuality.  But actually, it amounted to nothing.
    
      bb

    .38
    
    -b,
    
    Y'know you don't have to go too far back in history to find
    plenty of examples of women soldiers who trained, fought &
    died just as well as men.   The rifle is a great equalizer.
    I have no doubts that American women volunteers would fight just
    as hard (maybe even harder) for their country & children
    as men would.
    

    
    re: .42
    
    yeahbut, they currently aren't allowed to... so what's the
    point of sending them to a school to be trained for something
    they aren't allowed to do? eh?
    
    -b

    >The place was male, not for any exclusionary reason.
    
    How charmingly quaint, someone who still thinks there weren't any girls
    in his college "Applied Math" course of study simply because they
    chose not to be there.
    
    >How-times-and-theories-have-changed 
    
    indeed.
    
    DougO

    Keep in mind that before Hillary got indoctrinated into Wellesley, she
    was head of the Women's Republican Club.  Then they got her!!!
    
    -Jack

    
      Oh, and another thing (it's all coming back to me - from the
     50's, early 60's).  College life would hardly be recognizable
     as the same institution as college life today.  My point about
     sexual conduct wasn't some whispered secret - we as students
     read and signed a "Social Honor Code", promising not to engage
     in sexual intercourse (no joke !  They expelled guys, same at
     the girl's school.)  There was the "wastebasket rule" - you could
     not entertain a female guest in your quarters without the door
     stopped open by a large wastebasket, so you could be seen.
    
      Cars were forbidden to freshmen.  There was a dress code.  On
     Sunday, there was a compulsory chapel, even for those of different
     sects or none at all, unless waived by a written excuse.  And
     so forth.  An entirely different world, now gone forever.
    
      bb

    Re: .35
    
    Well, of COURSE they are!
    :)
    
    (No interest expressed, I'm not gonna waste my time.)

    
      And DougO, that was my point - THERE WERE girls in my course.
     But their degrees came from a different institution.
    
      bb

    ah, sorry to have misinterpreted.
    
    DougO

>Wellesley is where wealthy Republicans send their daughters, so
>that the latter might learn to speak without moving their jaws

I've always wondered how they do that.  Maybe it's a genetic kind
a thing that has to be coaxed out and cultivated.  Like, if they
talk that way, how do they chew?  Oh, I forgot, they don't eat. 

	are you for real???



	oh, excuse me.  carry on.

Di, still working on a sarcasm smiley.  Not much luck so far.

     > how do they chew
    
    Surely, in a single-sex college one would have to resort to
    mastication?
    
    

>Di, still working on a sarcasm smiley. 

	oh, i'll _bet_ you are.  <-- insert TBD icon here

Girls, girls!  Stop bickering or you'll be sent to a single-gendered school.

Paaassss the grey poupon........

    my suggestion for a sarcasm smiley:
    
    
      |
      |
    ^^ ^^
    \\ //
    
    
    -b

>>Girls, girls!  Stop bickering or you'll be sent to a single-gendered school.

	sounds good - won't have to help any of the guys with their
	homework.  hoho, etc.

Looks like one of those rubber things inside a toilet tank.

Looked like a mushroom cloud to me.

 .61 Rorschach woulda liked you.

    
    ascii art is not my strong point, as you can see. let's just
    say i was trying to represent something which has the same name
    as the object of interest to ornithologists...

    -b

Oh, you mean Figure 1.

    
    exactly.
    

    
      Nostalgia alert !!!  How can someone born in the sixties get
     the flavor of this extinct universe pre-sexual-revolution,
     pre-rock-music, pre-drug-culture, pre-you-name-it ?  Why, by
     watching old TV shows, of course !  Well, everybody looks at
     Ozzie and Harriet, or Leave It to Beaver, but if I had one show
     to pick, one show that displays the sexual mores and what passed
     for generation gaps back then, I think my pick would be "My Little
     Margie".  Not that the show was so great, but as a satire of manners,
     it captures the era the best.  Now I know Gail Storm played the
     marriagable Margie, but who were the other regulars (calling Chris
     Ralto) ?  Who played dimwit Freddie the boyfriend, "Father" the
     widower banker, and most of all "Grandmother", she of "Why, it
     reminds me of my fifth husband !"
    
      Quick, stop me before I recall again...
    
      bb

    
    bb's having a flashback, mannnnnn...
    

    You mean "My Three Sons" didn't catch the full flavor?
    
    

    
      Aaah, yesss - Fred MacMurray.  Where are the actor of yesteryear,
     back when cars had tailfins, as God intended them to ?  That would
     also be a good pick !
    
      bb

    We allow women into West Point, why not The Citadel?
    

    It is not "our" decision...
    West Point is a public institution, the Citadel is private.

    re: "My Little Margie"
    
    This was a pretty good show, and I liked it when I was a very
    little kid, but it's a little before my time (hey, I don't get
    to say that very often).
    
    I'll have to 'fess up, I only remembered the first two of these
    cast names, and I did a "phone home" for a remote consulation into
    the "Harry & Wally's" book.  :-)
    
    Gale Storm as Margie Albright
    Charles Farrell as Vernon Albright (Dad)
    Clarence Kolb as George Honeywell
    Gertrude Hoffman as Mrs. Odetts
    Don Hayden as Freddie Wilson
    Willie Best as Charlie
    
    Something seems to be missing here... didn't she have a "sidekick",
    or am I thinking of "Oh Susanna" where Gale Storm had ZaSu Pitts
    as a buddy?
    
    That show is a pretty good pick for being representative of the times,
    if I'm remembering it correctly, though it may be even more indicative
    of the lost world of the 1940's than the 1950's.  Since "My Little
    Margie" was filmed, it should be available, and I'd sure like to
    see it again (along with "Mr. Peepers", which, alas, is mostly lost,
    having been broadcast live).
    
    Chris

I thought the Citadel is state-supported.

    
    Yes, Mr. Honeywell !!  Margie's stiff-upper-lip dad would suck up
    to the old bank prex bigtime, only to have all his schemes undone
    by the eyebrow-raising escopades of Margie.  Of course, all would
    come right in the end.  My Dad (may he rest in peace) took me to
    see Gail Storm sing live in a nightclub in Las Vegas in 1956.  It
    was my first ever nightclub.  She seemed so out-of-place after the
    Margie character, I remember, but I was smitten, although too young
    of course to gamble or drink.
    
    Forties ?  Can it be ?  I seem to recall an even earlier show I
    watched before that (maybe we got TV before you did ? I recall a
    6-inch B/W.)  It was called "I Remember Mama".  Man, I used to cry
    over that.  I was very young, I remember.  I'm too young to have
    vivid talk-radio memories, I think...[sound of rummaging in attic]
    
    Thanks a lot for the info - can you get the Margie show's years ?
    
      bb

    The Citadel is a land grant institution, some of its property was
    deeded by the state government for the trustees' use to establish a
    military institute.  As many Citadel graduates go on to military
    careers, there are also extensive liaisons with US Department of
    Defense, who provide visiting faculty, scholarships for some cadets,
    and other training money.  By no means can they be considered a
    strictly "private" institution.
    
    DougO

    .75
    
    I don't see how any of the facts you listed prevent it from becoming a
    private institution.
    
    A land grant is quite different from a lease - the land is given away.
    Gone. bye-bye.
    
    And a liason with the DoD does not make it public, either. None of the
    activites you mentioned involved the Dod giving money to the school
    (what do you mean by "training money?")
     Of course, the DoD would be well within its rights in severing all
    relationships with the school if it didn't go coed, but it can't force
    it to do so.

    No boys to stare at during class?
    
    
    BORING :-)

    re: .74
    
    See you in the TV topic, bb... :-)
    
    Chris

    > None of the activites you mentioned involved the Dod giving money to
    > the school
    
    Paying the salaries of visiting officers, paying cadet scholarships?
    Those are indirect grants to the school.
    
    > Of course, the DoD would be well within its rights in severing all
    > relationships with the school if it didn't go coed, but it can't force
    > it to do so.
    
    I don't know the contractual obligations of scholarships or of the
    institutions involved; but complying with Title IX to stay eligible 
    for the scholarship moneys they've already accepted may indeed give 
    the courts the obligation to force the Citadel to go coed.
    
    DougO

    I still don't see why I'm off the mark; a number of you take
    exception to females being admitted to The Citadel.  A lot was said
    about whether or not females could keep up etc.  I was just trying
    to point out that if woman can make it through West Point they could
    make it through The Citadel.
    
    I'm not sure what the woman's motives were or how altruistic they
    were.  If she was *really* intent on a military career, why not try
    for West Point (although I do understand it's much more difficult
    to gain admission at WP).
    
    DougO, I do think your theory on her weight gain a bit lame though :-)
    

    
    > Those are indirect grants to the school.
                ^^^^^^^^
    This is the key word.  The DoD can cut off funds, but can not FORCE the
    Citadel to go co-ed.  They can require co-ed status to maintain funds,
    but that's about it.
    
    Dan

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       ZaSu Pitts  ZaSu Pitts  ZaSu Pitts  ZaSu Pitts  ZaSu Pitts  ZaSu Pitts 
       ZaSu Pitts  ZaSu Pitts  ZaSu Pitts  ZaSu Pitts  ZaSu Pitts  ZaSu Pitts 
       ZaSu Pitts  ZaSu Pitts  ZaSu Pitts  ZaSu Pitts  ZaSu Pitts  ZaSu Pitts 
       
       
       I love that name, and she certainly was the crotchety old bag in MLM.

    re: ZaSu Pitts
    
    A few weeks ago I saw a "History of Hollywood" kind of show, probably
    on AMC, and they did a bit on ZaSu Pitts' movies.  She was apparently
    quite popular in the thirties, one of the most popular comedy actresses
    around at the time.  She was usually teamed up with some other
    comedienne type (whose name escapes me) in the typical sidekick
    situation that she later did on TV, but here she was much younger,
    and not too bad looking in her younger days.
    
    Most of the female comedy stars on early TV did similar stuff in
    the movies in the 30's and 40's (e.g., Lucille Ball, Eve Arden,
    etc.).  I should try to catch more of their old movies...
    
    Chris

    >>A few weeks ago I saw a "History of Hollywood" kind of show, probably
    >>on AMC,
    
    
    chris, you watch all my children?!??!?!
    
    
    :> ;> ;>
    
    

    >> chris, you watch all my children?!??!?!
    
    Ha-ha, good one... funny, when I first typed "AMC", I thought
    of "American Motors Corporation".  But then again, that's probably
    because I had one of their cars.
    
    I think that I used to watch "All My Children" during college
    vacations, but that should go into the "Confessions" topic...
    
    Chris

    > This is the key word.  The DoD can cut off funds, but can not FORCE
    > the Citadel to go co-ed.  They can require co-ed status to maintain
    > funds, but that's about it.
      
    Try to keep up.  The last point made was that the courts, not the DoD,
    would have to be the active agent, because the discrimination against
    female would-be cadets is a violation of Title IX, the Federal Law
    already applied by Congress to all institutions that accept federal
    money.  The Citadel accepts such money on any ROTC scholarship cadet,
    and by accepting the services of any professional military officer
    while Congress pays that officer's salary.  They are in violation of
    Title IX, as I understand it has been interpreted in past court cases.
    Are they too good for the law?  The argument won't wash.
    
    DougO

    Well, it matters not because Shannon is simply too fat to participate
    at the Citadel!
    
    -Jack

    > DougO, I do think your theory on her weight gain a bit lame though :-)
    
    OK, I think it is too, actually.  It isn't the important issue here to
    me, though.  I hope the court still makes a ruling on the principle of
    whether the Citadel is to be allowed to continue to discriminate.  If
    they aren't, then Shannon will have to meet cadet standards, period.
    If she doesn't, she's out.  I have no problem with that- as I thought
    was clear when I said previously that she should be put on a corrective
    action plan, as would be any cadet the first time they failed to meet
    standards.
    
    DougO

    DougO:
    
    How can you say that with a straight face?  Every school discriminates!
    
    -Jack

    
    ah yes, the old ignore the question you can't answer ploy, eh?
    
    so does this mean there really isn't a point to allowing someone
    who can't participate in combat to train for it?
    
    -b

    
    Most male soldiers will never fight in hand-to-hand combat either. How
    many people actually pursue the career for which they are trained?  
    The question is whether all individuals should have equal opportunity
    to make choices.

>    Most male soldiers will never fight in hand-to-hand combat either.

Unless they get in a barroom brawl.  In which case they should be executed.

        >ah yes, the old ignore the question you can't answer ploy, eh?
        
    No, its the old ignore the question you don't find relevant in order to
    stay focused on what you do find relevant approach; not a ploy at all.
    
    There are 90 troops behind the line for every 10 in combat.  All
    service training requires that people be trained to perform all of
    these roles- nobody is guranteed a combat position.  Nobody is
    guaranteed that they'll ever see combat.  Entire careers are spent and
    specialisation required, in materiel logistics, communications,
    maintenance, artillery, personnel support, transportation, etc, etc,
    etc.  
    
    > so does this mean there really isn't a point to allowing someone
    > who can't participate in combat to train for it?
    
    The Citadel may like to pretend it sole mission is to train officers to
    lead combat troops.  But the rest of us know that the services need far
    more than that of all its' trained personnel, and that gender matters
    not a whit to the utility of these officers to the services.  Training
    for the 10% who will be commanders of combat troops continues when they
    join their units, well after the Citadel has offered them generic
    officer training; when the crucial skills they need to lead in combat
    are to be learned from interacting with their troops, something the
    Citadel can't even offer.  What the Citadel nees to recognise is that
    all of their officers *will* have women in their commands, and as
    senior officers, and they had better get used to it from the first day,
    and not allow a sexist attitude to pollute the officer corps from the
    graduates of a hidebound military academy.
    
    What this means is that the issue of women attending the Citadel is not
    at all about whether there is a point to training women for combat
    roles they'll never be allowed into; clearly its about allowing them
    into the Citadel to be trained as officers.
    
    DougO

    Oh and DougO,
    
    Don't forget some of those officers from the C will have women officers
    over them at some point in their military carreers as well.
    
    meg

    what, you missed "and as senior officers" Meg?
    
    DougO

    Oops, that is what I meant dougO

    <<< Note 502.80 by DECLNE::REESE "ToreDown,I'mAlmostLevelW/theGround" >>>

>    to point out that if woman can make it through West Point they could
>    make it through The Citadel.
    
    	Women have different physical standards from men at West Point.  
    	And at Annapolis.  And at the Air Force Academy.  And to become
    	police and fire officers in most municipalities.
    
    	This violates the position of many of the participants in
    	this discussion -- that of equal standards.  I can accept 
    	women in such fields, but ONLY if they can meet the standards
    	already in place.  If it has been determined that x-ability
    	is necessary to do the job, then it's not so much a matter of
    	unfairness to lower the standard for special cases as it is
    	a functional matter or a matter of safety.  Otherwise, why is 
    	that standard in place?  Someone has determined that that is
    	the ability necessary to do the job effectively or safely.
    	If the standard is in place solely to keep women (or some
    	other group) out of the job, then that is a different matter 
    	entirely.
    
    	Someone back there asked how hard it is to carry a rifle,
    	suggesting that any woman can do that.  Probably true, but
    	there is more to being a soldier than carrying (and being able
    	to successfully use) a rifle.  Or handle a joystick, for that
    	matter.  Soldiers carry things, climb obstacles while carrying
    	things, carry each other, and do all sorts of physically-
    	demanding tasks.  They don't just stand in one place and
    	shoot.  Look at the Normandy invasion.  Many men drowned,
    	unable to swim to shore with the loads they had to carry.
    	Do you think that lower standards for women would have helped
    	in that situation?  Those who made it to shore (sometimes
    	carrying their wounded comrades in addition to their own 
    	loads) then had to scale cliffs.    This is just one
    	example.  Soldiers are supposed to be interchangeable 
    	parts in an army machine.  If the guy in front of you is
    	cut down, you should be able to pick up his load.  Would
    	a lower-standards woman be able to carry her wounded 
    	platoon-mate out of a firefight?  If she can meet the
    	male standards, we can expect that she would be able to
    	perform that task.

	.97  agreed.  

    
     I agree with Joe...
    
     If I'm in a fire-fight, and need someone to hump ammo for me (go
    ahead... you're gonna anyway) then they better be able to do it...
    whether they're a man, woman or... Canadian!!!
    
      If they can't, then my life's in danger and they better give me
    someone who can or I'll shoot them myself!!
    
        If PFC Wally Nerd can't tote the stuff and Pvt. Bertha Butt with
    her 25 inch biceps can, then BB's my life saver... hands down!!
      
     But you better not ask me to lay my life on the line because some
    hot-shot PC pencil pusher says we gotta be equal and all... 
    
      Soldiers in all sorts of wars and battles have been killed by
    "snipers".. even if the bullets were fired into their backs...
    
      

    
    > If I'm in a fire-fight, and need someone to hump ammo for me (go
    >ahead... you're gonna anyway) then they better be able to do it...
    >whether they're a man, woman or... Canadian!!!
    
    :^)
      

Canadians... the elusive third sex?  Next on In Search Of...

    	THIRD sex?  Contemporary logic is now pushing for FIVE!!!  

    Joe,
    
    Can you give us a reference besides Dobson?
    
    meg

>    	THIRD sex?  Contemporary logic is now pushing for FIVE!!!  

You been talking to Heiser about Jamie Lee Curtis agin?

TTom

    .103
    
    > THIRD sex?  Contemporary logic is now pushing for FIVE!!!
    
    Contemporary logic is already behind the times.  There are actually
    eight:
    
    male homo
    male hetero
    male bi
    male neuter
    female homo
    female hetero
    female bi
    female neuter

Nine, if you include Canadians.

    
    <------
    More like 16.... if you include Canadians (sans Richardson)
    

   ZZ     How
   ZZ     many people actually pursue the career for which they are trained?  
   ZZ     The question is whether all individuals should have equal
   ZZ     opportunity to make choices.
    
    The Citadel is a school made up of cadets who are quite serious about 
    military service.
    
    The answer to the question is no, all individuals shouldn't have equal
    opportunity to make choices because not all people are the same. 
    Should Haystacks Calhoun have the right to make a choice about going to
    the Citadel?  No because quite frankly, (other than being dead), the
    man is tremendously obese and his metabolism didn't afford him the
    choice to go to Citadel or West Point.  
    
    Shannon Faulkner has the choice to cut 20 lbs.  Then they will take it
    from there.  Remember, the military is here to kill and destroy.  Not
    interested in civilian protocols.
    
    -Jack

    Not only that but don't some of them speak two languages also?

I definitely think the Citadel shouldn't accept dead obese professional
wrestlers.  Whoever disagrees with me can step into the ring.

A big cornerstone of the "save our Citadel" crowd's
monologue is the "lowering of standards" mantra.

Who has pushed for "lowering the standards" in this string?
No one.

>I definitely think the Citadel shouldn't accept dead obese professional
>wrestlers.  Whoever disagrees with me can step into the ring.

He'd prolly become the head of that there cadre o' cadets.

Y'all should come on down and take a look at the Citadel. It's in the
finest tradition of the south, namely mid-19th century. Back then, you
could get a_honest day's work for a_honest day's flogging. If'n you were
poor, black or female, no need to apply.

All paid for by our tax dollars and don't you fergit it.

TTom

    
    joe and andy have done a better job of making the point i was
    trying to make yesterday (thanks!); let me add that i have
    my doubts that a significant number of woman would meet the
    standards that should be in place for a _combat_ soldier;
    purely from a physical perspective. so, i'm still not sure
    about the value of training them for combat. i also have
    my doubts regarding the value of training someone to command
    combat troops who cannot be a combat troop (referring to
    DougO's argument).
    
    to me, social engineering the military is a *huge* mistake.
    although i support gay rights, to me it is foolish to
    impose my will (or even the will of the majority) upon
    the military. the military is too unlike civilian life;
    it should not be somewhat self-governing as a social
    structure.
    
    i don't agree with the notion that a gay soldier is a
    problem; but then again, i don't have to fight with gay
    soldiers. if my well-honed killing machines don't want
    to fight with gay soldiers... OK. none of my business.
    
    if my well-honed killing machines resent being led by
    officers who can't meet the same physical standards
    they do... OK, none of my business.
    
    the military is not a training ground for your careers
    folks; it is an organized war machine.
    
    -b

Ah, the good ol' days...

    
    I can't say I disagree with Joe and Andy WRT standards, BUT...
    
    ("everyone I know has a big but")
    
    ...one *should* be allowed to question whether the standards are
    unnecessarily high in the first place.  For instance, police and
    firefighters have to pass rigorous physical tests prior to admission.
    After 10 years of service, however, how many could still pass those
    same tests?
    
    jc
    

    
    My only problem with a homosexual combat soldier is that if he's in the
    trenches next to me and gets his head blown off, the blood and gore is
    gonna be all over me... he may or may not be HIV+ but why put that
    worry on a combat soldier's head along with worrying about if the enemy
    is gonna kill him?
    
    Granted, I may or may not be aware of this soldier's sexual preference,
    but if I were, what would that do to my morale??
    

    
    re: .117
    
    Re-test em every  5-10 years!!
    
    I can't tolerate seeing some of the cops and firefighters in the
    trenches who can't do their jobs because of their physical limitations.
    
     I don't watch it but have seen COPS at friends houses and it disgusts
    me to see these fat cops chasing a fleet-footed suspect and after a few
    hundred feet, they're gasping for air and ready to collapse...
    
     Same with the Fire-fighters... can't close their coats cause of the
    Budweiser tumor... If, because of this condition, it costs precious
    seconds where someone's life is at stake, get Bertha Butt in there,
    and fatso out!!!
    
      

    
    
    Andy...that's probably by far one of the most pathetic notes of yours I
    have ever read.  If you watch ANYONE get his head blown off next to you
    it's going to affect morale, I hope!
    
    And with all the testing, physicals, etc. that they do these days, I
    think it's safe to say that someone infected with AIDS would not be
    allowed to enter the armed forces anyways, wether they be homosexual or
    heterosexual.
    
    AIDS IS NOT A HOMOSEXUAL DISEASE!!!!!!  How do you know that the guy in
    the hole next to you hasn't been sleeping with every whore in Bancock
    for the past twenty years, and also has AIDS????
    
    Be realistic....I could have it....the person in the office next to you
    could have it.....you may never know.  
    
    
    Terrie
    

    
    
    .121 was in reference to .119, not .120
    
    
    
    Terrie
    

    Ummm...I believe that's "Bangcock," Terrie...
    
    (Ya, I know that's not it either, but it fits, don't it?)

    
    
    :*)  I typed it that way firs, but then I figured I might get deleted
    for R.O., so I changed it.  :*)
    

Isn't Bancock some kind of male hygiene spray?

    
    
    First.....not firs.  :*)
    

 ZZ   Who has pushed for "lowering the standards" in this string?
 ZZ   No one.
    
    So you believe Shannon Faulker should get a butch?

    
    
    No.  It's the prostitution capital of the world....in Thailand.
    

    Bancock, the deodorant stick?

    No, it's the capital of tie-me-up-land.

    
    re: .121
    
    terrie,
    
    Pathetic (in your eyes) or not, it's a very real scenario. Why? Because
    I've had the opportunity to talk with GI's about this very same thing.
    
    >If you watch ANYONE get his head blown off next to you it's going to
    >affect morale, I hope!
    
     Nope... you don't have time for that at that particular moment. It
    doesn't affect morale, it affects head-count (no pun intended) and
    the worry if you'll have somebody else there soon to help you stay
    alive that much longer... 
    
     If you would kindly re-read my reply, I was talking about HIV+ people
    and not AIDS... HIV takes years to develope and may not be readily
    caught during routine tests... So your finding it before the person
    gets any farther is a straw-man at best...
    
     Pathetic? I suggest that unless you've been a soldier, and been
    there-done that, you reserve judgment for a future date...
    

    I'll remember that if I ever get into combat and the head of the guy
    next to me suddenly begins accelerating outwards in different
    directions all at once.
    
    Puke? Tremble? Pee my pants? "NoSIR, ain't got time for that!"

    You got that right.  You will be too busy running and will save your
    bodily functions for a better time!  In boot camp, they'll tell you if
    you puke, you die!
    
    -Jack

    Were you in boot camp Meatie?

    .119
    
    Andy, I've got news for you.  HIV is not a gay disease.  It's an
    equal-opportunity killer.  Consider also that in most combat zones a
    nontrivial number of the troops around you would be helping the local
    businessowmen to ply their trade - in some areas, the percentage of
    such businesswomen who are HIV+ approaches unity.  Your straight-as-an-
    arrow foxhole mate might be as likely to be HIV+ as the gay guy in the
    next ditch.

    
    You're probably right Dick...
    
    But if you go back and re-read what I wrote, I believe the main point I
    was trying to make was morale? 
    
    What is it based on? Knowing and not knowing certain things... 
    
    Knowing that your CO won a medal for bravery is better than knowing he
    just came from commanding a rear echelon unit...
    
    Knowing the guy next to you MAY be HIV+ (whether straight or not) is
    not better for morale than not knowing..
    
      I know I have to obey orders... Psychologically (morale wise), if I
    know three of the guys in my squad are homosexuals, I'd be worried.
    If Joe Straight is HIV+ and I don't know it because I know that Joe is
    straight, my morale is not affected. If I didn't know those same three
    guys in my squad are homosexual, it hasn't affected my morale...
    
     Clearer??
    
    
    

    Exactly my point, Andy.  Knowing that you are in a combat zone where
    more than 75 percent of the whores are HIV+, and where many of your
    straight buddies are getting their horns clipped anyway, is no less
    damaging to morale than knowing that a perhaps-monogamous gay trooper
    is in the next foxhole. My brother-in-law Patrick is gay.  He's been
    with his partner for a great deal longer than the average married
    couple.  They both made sure that each was HIV- before they engaged in
    any activities that might communicate the virus.  Whom would you rather
    have covering your ass, my brother-in-law or Hugh Grant, who recently
    allegedly indulged in an activity that could well result in his
    becoming HIV+?

    translation of .136:
    
    ignorance is bliss.

   <<< Note 502.117 by TROOA::COLLINS "Careful! That sponge has corners!" >>>

>    ...one *should* be allowed to question whether the standards are
>    unnecessarily high in the first place.  
    
    	I left room for that in my .97.  In addition I was thinking to
    	add (but forgot it in the end) that if lower standards for
    	females are actually sufficient, then those same standards
    	should be OK for males too.
    
>    For instance, police and
>    firefighters have to pass rigorous physical tests prior to admission.
>    After 10 years of service, however, how many could still pass those
>    same tests?
    
    	I thought they were supposed to be retested...  Then again,
    	when you look at the physical condition of many of them, one
    	has to question whether that is a true statement.
    
    	They should be retested.
    
    	Doesn't the military have ongoing physical requirements and
    	tests?

	>>My brother-in-law Patrick is gay.

	more's the pity.  

    re: .136
    
    Ignoring the possible impact of your surroundings is not
    bliss, it is plain stuipd.
    
    If we make a habit of training military personnel by telling
    them, "if you don't know about it you can make it go away"
    I really do fear for this country.
    
    AIDS and HIV is real.  It is everywhere.  Some people who
    have contracted it have probably done so by ignoring the
    facts, ie "ignorance is bliss".
    
    Wake up.  Ignorance can be death.

    
    re: .137
    
    I think you know what I meant Dick.... why belabor the point...
    
    re: .138
    
    >ignorance is bliss.
    
    Absolutely!!!! Have you ever been in the military??
    
    Have you ever been shot at?
    
    Would you want to know where the bullet meant for you was coming
    from... and when??
    
     Do you realize how many front-line combat troops there would be if
    ignorance wasn't bliss??
    

    .142
    
    Don't get so dang defensive!
    
    I didn't comment on your reply at all...just translated.

    
    RE: .141
    
    Mary-Michael...
    
    >If we make a habit of training military personnel by telling
    >them, "if you don't know about it you can make it go away"
    >I really do fear for this country.
    
     Don't fear too long... it's always been that way and always will be..
    
    What do you think the results of D-Day would've been had the troops
    been told.."Well, there's 100,000 of you and we know for sure that
    10,000 of you will die securing the beach head.." ????
    
     I "fear" there would've been many many more that 10K...
    

Andy, my understanding is that, since at least WWII, the military has devoted
a lot of effort to convincing soldiers to avoid prostitutes.  I'd hope that
they would devote even more effort now that so many third world prostitutes
are HIV+.  It's in the military's interest that soldiers be afraid of HIV.
It's not in the military's interest that soldiers be afraid of combat.

    .142
    
    > Would you want to know where the bullet meant for you was coming
    > from... and when??
    
    Yes, I would.  An accident that you can anticipate may well be an
    accident that you can avoid.  Ignorance is not bliss in combat, Andy. 
    Ignorance is ignominious death.  And if you think otherwise, you might
    address your remarks to some of the 20 British pilots who were told off
    to go up against more than a hundred Messerschmitts in order to cover a
    retreat.  If any of them had come back, that is.  They went up not
    because they didn't know they were doomed, but because they were
    honorable men willing to give their lives to save thousands of other
    British lives.  That's what being a hero is all about.

    .146
    
    > my understanding is that, since at least WWII, the military has devoted
    > a lot of effort to convincing soldiers to avoid prostitutes.
    
    And if you think it works, I have this beautiful oceanfront property in
    Vermont I'd like to sell you.  Talk to soldiers who fought in Korea. 
    Or in Viet Nam.  They'll tell you they pretty much interpreted orders
    to avoid prostitutes as meaning don't get caught with a whore.

    
    re: .143
    
    Dick,
    
     Heroism in the face of danger and certain death is just that.. heroic.
    It is not ignorance and it is not bliss...
    
     Combat has nothing to do with accidents... unless you want to start a
    rat-hole about friendly fire. 
    
     Would you have crawled out of your fox-hole knowing you're gonna die?
    
    Besides... you can't hear the one that gets you anyway.... 
    

I realize it's not terribly effective.  But Andy was equating being afraid
of HIV with being afraid of combat.

    .148
    
    > Would you have crawled out of your fox-hole knowing you're gonna die?
    
    If I believed in what I was fighting for, yes.  Willingly.  I would
    today voluntarily die saving the life, for example, of either of my
    children.

    
    re: .151
    
    Dick,
    
     That's you... and we know that can't be quantified...
    
    I happen to agree with your sentiments entirely. That's me...
    
    Most soldiers crawl out of their fox-holes for less altruistic reasons
    than you or I.
    
     Firstly they are trained and indoctrinated to do so. If you (generic)
    haven't been in the military, you won't understand. The fear of being
    punished and/or seeming a coward in their peers eyes is another. They
    crawl out because they know they MIGHT get killed, not that they would
    be killed. They know it might happen to the other guy, not them.. 
    
     and probably a host of other reasons...
    
     BTW... your example of your children is, I think, not appropose to a
    combat situation...
    
    

    .152
    
    > not appropose [sic]
    
    Ah, but it is.  It illustrates by analogy a scenario in which I would
    be willing to sacrifice my life knowingly.

    
    Okay... I'll give you the "knowingly"... 
    
    But it still begs the whole question of the initial scenario of combat
    and morale...

    .154
    
    I think not.  I would rather know that the guy next to me is a good
    hand with an M-16 than that he is heterosexual.  His ability with a
    rifle could keep me alive.  His bedroom proclivities can't.  Morale
    (in combat) for me is an issue of who is the best person to be with
    if my object is to come out with my shield instead of on it.

    
    re. .155
    
    That's fine for you and I Dick..
    
    Convince some 19 year old combat jock who just got out of high school
    and is still under the impression you can catch AIDS from shaking a
    homosexual's hand...
    

  <<< Note 502.102 by NOTIME::SACKS "Gerald Sacks ZKO2-3/N30 DTN:381-2085" >>>

>Canadians... the elusive third sex? 

	I think it's more along the lines of speciation.

	;-)

Jim

    	Well, lesbians have one of the lowest rates of HIV infection, so
    	to get back to the topic (somewhat) maybe all Citadel enrollees
    	should be lesbians!   :^)

    On a side rathole regarding blood and bloos bonrne infections, there
    are several other nasties you can pick up from bodily fluids that
    aren't limited to one orientation or another as well.  Hepititis B and
    Hep C (also implicated in a large number of liver cancers, and what
    probably was responsible for Mantle's problems), and hep a can all be
    cuaght by exchange of bodily fluids and are far more distributed in the
    population than HIV has ever been.  Hep B and C are also STD's and a
    large number of prostitutes, IV drug users and college students have
    been exposed to or have caught one of the other.  There is a vaccine
    for Hap B, but nothing existing at this time for hep C.
    
    This makes using good universal blood precautions paramount in all
    first aid and field conditions when possible.  The last first-aid
    course I took strongly emphasized carrying gloves, and "mouth condoms"
    in a first aid kit.  
    
    meg

    Dare I ask...
    
    Whazza mouth condom?
    
    I've seen mouth-to-mouth adapters for PR...izzat the same thing?

    Meg,
    
    I think there's reason to believe that hepatitis had nothing to do
    with Mickey Mantle's liver problems.
    
    

    .161
    
    > I think there's reason to believe that hepatitis had nothing to do
    > with Mickey Mantle's liver problems.
    
    Given that Mantle was diagnosed as having hep c, I think you think
    wrong.

    Oh come on Binder, Mantle is an admitted alcoholic; we're talking
    40+ years of hard boozing!!  I'm sure the hep c didn't help matters
    any, but after hearing Mantle and members of his family talk about
    just how much he did drink over that extended period of time, I
    think it's a bit naive to think the hep c is the sole source of his
    liver problems.
    
    

    >I think it's a bit naive to think the hep c is the sole source of his
    >liver problems.
    
     I have yet to come across anyone making such a claim. Why the red
    herring?

    
    
    It may or may not be, Karen.  I know people who drank real hard for 50+
    years and died of heart ailments in their late 80's.  I'm not saying ot
    was or it wasn't, we cannot know.

    .163
    
    > I
    > think it's a bit naive to think the hep c is the sole source of his
    > liver problems.
    
    Try reading for comprehension.  Where did I say hep c was the SOLE
    source of Mantle's problem?  You said in .161 that you thought that
    hepatitis had NOTHING to do with his problem.  You were wrong.  Hep c
    contributed to the need for a new liver.  Admit your error.

    Ray,
    
    Check out .159, I saw no mention of alcohol being the probable source
    of Mantle's problems, only hepatitis.  I was responding to Meg's
    note.
    
    I'm not denying hepatitis C can't be a factor in severe liver problems
    and/or cancer, perhaps Mickey Mantle just isn't the best example to
    use for the hepatitis angle, that's all.
    
    

    
    	re: mouth condom
    
    	Most likely meg is talking about a face-shield. It's used for
    emergency mouth-to-mouth when a pocket face mask or bag-valve mask are
    not available. A thin sheet of plastic with a hole in it basically. If
    the person upchucks, you will eat it. Get a pocket face mask with a one
    way valve...(not 100% upchuck proof, but better).
    
    
    jim (3 weeks from completion of his EMT course)
    
    p.s. - Hepatitis kills more EMT's every year than HIV....
    
    

    
    
    RE: You is a classy dude, James, that's what I like so much about you.
    :')
    
    Mike

    
    re: .168
    
    re: face-shield
    
    Got's one of dem... fortunately, haven't had a chance to use one yet.
    

    face shield was what I was talking about.  
    
    HEP C has been implicated heavily in Cancer of the liver, as HPV has
    been implicated heavily in cervical cancer.  The cchirroses (sp) is
    what did prevent the more conservative LC treatment as there was too
    much scar tissue to remove parts of the liver and let it regenerate.  
    
    meg
    
    re.168
    
    I hope you have gotten vaccinated for hep B.  There is also a new
    vaccine for hep A out now.  Unfortunately there is none that I know of
    for hep C.
    
    

    Wasn't it a hep C infection that has endangered Naomi Judd's health?
    Think she said she was infected while she was still working as an R.N.
    
    

    Good thing that Hep Cats are so pass� these daze.  They used to be
    a prime vector for hep C.
    

    man, take a day off and the topic goes rather far afield.
    
    > about the value of training them for combat. i also have
    > my doubts regarding the value of training someone to command
    > combat troops who cannot be a combat troop (referring to
    > DougO's argument).
    
    You've misunderstood my argument.  I'm saying that although the Citadel
    grads may like to pretend its sole mission is to train combat troops,
    in reality its mission is to train officers.  What the DoD does with
    them is up to the DoD, and many will never see combat or get another
    day of combat training, or need it.  90% of the officers aren't in
    combat, they're in support.  If the Citadel wants to continue to have a
    market for its "private" grads, it had better ensure that they're fit
    for duty with the DoD- and that means not trained to disregard the
    capabilities of a significant fraction of their troops and commanders
    and peers- those who happen to be female; that is, the Citadel had
    better be sure it doesn't train sexists.  Hard for the good ol' boys to
    understand, but thats the rules.
    
    DougO

Well, looks like she's in.  Quite honestly, IMO, she
must be a little naive or a little nuts to want to attend
school there.  I hope she knows what she's in for.
It ain't gonna be no joyride.

>>It ain't gonna be no joyride.

	Not even a scintilla of joy should she expect.

Indeed, not the tiniest of scintillas.

    
    Actually, she seems to have done the smart thing...
    
    She'll be treated with kid gloves so's the big, bad federalis won't
    come down on the school some more (IMO of course)
    

You really think so?  Maybe.  For awhile.
But eventually she'll be pretty much on her
own.  Oh well, she got her own bathroom, that
oughta count for something.

>>                                -< Easy Street >-

	she's already encountered a sign telling her to "go home",
	so i doubt it'll be "easy street".  personally, i see no
	problem with single-gendered institutions.  i think she
	should have respected that aspect of that particular institution
	and stayed out.  that's an unpopular opinion for a woman
	to have, no doubt, but hey, it's monday.

    
    >she's already encountered a sign telling her to "go home",
    
    Wow!!! Poor thing!!
    
    No crosses being burned? No 'tar-and-feather' effigies?
    
     Bonnie's right... things will quiet down... but she'll still be
    treated with kid gloves, whether she's ostracized or not... 

    
    
    Yup, us men are perfectly content to let you wimmins have yer quilting
    bees without wanting to join in.... :')
    
    
    
    I agree 100% with M'Lady concerning the subject at hand.   

    
    >she's already encountered a sign telling her to "go home",
    
>>    Wow!!! Poor thing!!


	I'm not saying that's such a horrible thing, but it's clear
	she's not wanted there by some factions.  "Easy street"? - no.
	Treated with kid gloves by some faculty members?  - yes, that
	seems very likely, you're right.

They certainly won't be able to taunt a guy
using the 'p' word when he can't do a gazillion
push-ups...

    >    Wow!!! Poor thing!!
     
     I am bowled over by your inestimable compassion.

    Faulkner says she wants to be treated exactly the same as the other
    knobs (slang for buzz-cut hair of new cadets).
    
    Right.
    
    The Citadel has decided that, because the knob haircut is part of the
    "uniformity" thing and because she's already inherently different from
    all the other cadets, she does not get a buzz cut.
    
    Also unlike all other cadets, she has a private room - with security
    cameras monitoring the corridors outside.  I'd guess that the cameras
    are there because the Citadel, despite its tradition of officers and
    gentlemen, does not expect the male cadets to play nicely with their
    new friend.

>    The Citadel has decided that, because the knob haircut is part of the
>    "uniformity" thing and because she's already inherently different from
>    all the other cadets, she does not get a buzz cut.

They should give her the buzz cut then.  But I'm sure they just can't
bring themselves to do it.

    It occurs that refusal to administer the buzz cut may be part of a plan
    to treat her UNLIKE the other cadets, enough that she decides it's not
    worth it and quits.

    
    re: .184
    
    Urban legend... (at least in the military)...
    
    The most endearing term used, 90% of the time, was "maggot". The other
    10% was confined to variations of four letter words...
    

hmmm. maggot.  I like that.  It's gender-free.

    
    re: .185
    
    >I am bowled over by your inestimable compassion.
    
    I'm sure she knew what was in store for her before/during/after, to a
    degree...
    
    Compassion? No... respect maybe, for seeing through with her
    convictions... a certain amount of admiration for sticking it to them
    (deservedly)...

    
    re: .190
    
    The Drill Instructors were always in the "equal opportunity" bracket
    when dispensing "praise"...

>It occurs that refusal to administer the buzz cut may be part of a plan
>    to treat her UNLIKE the other cadets

Yup, it's time for the citadel authorities to set the stage...
these differences are _really_ gonna be valued.

    >Compassion? No... respect maybe, for seeing through with her
    >convictions... a certain amount of admiration for sticking it to them
    >(deservedly)...
    
     Really? One would not infer that from the notes you've written thus
    far.
    

    
    One would infer that I had no compassion (which you rightly did), and
    since I stated what I wanted to subsequently, then there's no need to
    infer anything else...
    

    Compassion???
    
    I hope they make her cry...I hope they really make it hell for her!
    
    Why??  Because she wants to be a martyr and plow the field for feminist
    groups...and if she is going to be an icon for feminism, I want her to
    be able to stand up and say Hey...I got through the Citadel and opened
    the doors for all women.  
    
    If they make it easy for her, then women at the Citadel will always be
    in the same category as the Affirmative Action nonsense that goes on in
    other companies and segments of society.
    
    -Jack

>    I hope they make her cry...I hope they really make it hell for her!

Such a kind and charitable way of looking at things...

TTom

    TTom:
    
    Granted.  Realize that it is boot camp that is supposed to train a
    person to survive....to break things...and to kill.  The military is
    not a place to assume a danger free career, it is not a place to
    perform social engineering, it is a place to learn how to hate...sorry
    to say but these are the facts.
    
    It is this attribute of what we are that helps us to survive.  If
    Shannon wants to be a Citadel cadet, then she reaaaaally has to want
    it!
    
    -Jack

Attention!!

Snarf!

    
    Leech ones don't count....
    

Ya can't set yourself up?

    
    Nope.  That's cheating.
    

No wonder Leech does it all the time.
Oh well, I have so much to learn about snarf culture.

    
    > I hope they make her cry...I hope they really make it hell for her!
    > 
    > Why??  Because she wants to be a martyr and plow the field for feminist
    > groups...and if she is going to be an icon for feminism, I want her to
    > be able to stand up and say Hey...I got through the Citadel and opened
    > the doors for all women.  
    
    What's the implication if she opts out next year?
    

    
    It's bad enough to just take one, but setting yourself up is considered
    "gauche" by box standards
    

    >It is this attribute of what we are that helps us to survive.  If
    >Shannon wants to be a Citadel cadet, then she reaaaaally has to
    >want it!
    
     So, basically, she has to be 10 times the average male cadet to make
    it out? Then butt pimples like yourself will still claim she had it
    easy. Like it or not, she's already shown much more initiative and
    resilience than the average male cadet. She's already shown that she
    "reaaaaally" wants it. And yet we still hear an assortment of barnyard
    sounds from your general direction. nice oinking and braying, but you
    need a little work on your squealing. No doubt her continued existence
    will give you plenty of practice.

I shall never commit a Leech-snarf again.

    
    re: .210
    
    Snarf-control is much more challenging...
    

    >>Like it or not, she's already shown much more initiative and
    >>resilience than the average male cadet. 

	I wouldn't contest this, but what are you basing it on?

    >I wouldn't contest this, but what are you basing it on?
    
     I'm basing it on her willingness to endure the slings and arrows of a
    protracted court battle, in yo' face publicity, and what is likely to
    be a very lonely college career just to get the education of her
    choice. Any other cadet applies, gets accepted and shows up.

    >>Like it or not, she's already shown much more initiative and
    >>resilience than the average male cadet.

My guess would be that Mark is referring to Faulkner's 
stick-to-ittiveness in getting into the Citadel in the
first place...the battle's been on for about 2 years,
hasn't it?

    >It's bad enough to just take one, but setting yourself up is considered
    >"gauche" by box standards
    
     Not that that even slows Leech down...

	>>Any other cadet applies, gets accepted and shows up.

	That indicates nothing about initiative.

    >That indicates nothing about initiative.
    
     It doesn't? Well, it does to me. Note that I am not saying that she
    HAS more initiative than your average cadet, just that she's SHOWN it.

	>>Note that I am not saying that she
        >>HAS more initiative than your average cadet, just that she's SHOWN it.

	Yeah, I figured you'd say that. ;>  Sorry, it just didn't come
	across that simply to me. 

    
      Howcum rebel states run military academies to teach more treason ?
     Somebody shoulda told Sherman and Grant, "You missed a spot."
    
      bb 

    
    <-----
    
    Can you say Robert E. Lee???
    

    Mark:
    
    Butt Pimple.....moi!!?  
    
    You have cut me to the quick.  Bottom line Mark, is I don't really care
    if she's the best cadet that ever went through the Citadel anymore than
    I care if President Clinton saves the world.  President Clinton is
    still in my opinion not worthy to be Commander in Chief for the United
    States Military and Shannon Faulkner is the wrong gender! 
    Superficial???...perhaps but there you have it.
    
    I am a solid believer in the integrity of single gendered schools for
    both men and women.  Unlike popular opinion, I reject the notion that
    men and women are alike.  They are not, this is the politically correct
    fallacy going on these days so don't fall for it!
    
    -Jack

OK, whassamatta here?

Everyone afraid to post the news about Shannon ending up in the infirmary
suffering from heat exhaustion on her first day of training at the Citadel?

It is to be noted that five cadets also succumbed.

/john

    It was probably the school's plan to push them until Shannon succumbed
    to the heat/exhaustion or whatever to show that she couldn't take it. 
    Poetic justice that some of the guys went down with her.
    
    Never understood why the military is so fond of pushing their own
    people until they drop or die.  Seems to happen every so often.  Is
    there some point to it?

    
    Shannon's heat exhaustion, which has so far prevented her from taking
    the oath to become a cadet, is by no means an unusual thing.  Knobs,
    rooks, or plebes (depending which school you're at) are under so much
    unaccustomed stress the first few days that it is easy to forget
    to drink, even under a hot South Carolina sun.  It becomes a familiar
    sight to see knobs passing out when in formation out on the parade
    ground, either from heat exhaustion or from having knees locked 
    when standing at attention.  Besides, I suspect that perhaps Shannon
    might have been decreasing her water intake over the last few days
    just to ensure that she comes in within the Army weight standards
    for her height, just to avoid any embarrassing criticism.
    
    Having gone to two military colleges/academies, and having known men
    who went to all the well-known schools, I have my own expectations about
    the environment Shannon Faulkner will face at the Citadel.  It
    surprises me to hear media personalities voice fears that Shannon will
    be unduly hazed as the first female cadet.  Rather, I expect that she
    will be shunned by both the training cadre of upperclassmen and by her
    own classmates, who will be mortified to be in the first Citadel class
    to include a woman in their ranks.  No one will haze her.  No one will
    associate with her.  Her classmates will not include her in duties
    or in social interaction.  This behavior will be subtly encouraged by
    the upperclassmen and by the old guard that runs the Citadel.
    
    Shannon will spend four years, if she lasts that long, alone in her
    $25,000 private room and bath, or in a similar arrangement in the band
    barracks if her lawyers are successful in their latest bid.  She may
    get a Citadel ring and degree, but she will NEVER know what it was like
    to be a Citadel cadet.
    
    I feel sorry for everything that has happened to Shannon Faulkner, and
    I feel sorry for everything that is going to happen to her.  However,
    she asked for it.  She decided to spit in the face of Southern
    tradition when she could have gone elsewhere for an equivalent
    education.  And as far as her showing "initiative" goes, I suppose
    that is true if you consider "initiative" to include outright lies and
    distortions of her academic record on her application to disguise the
    fact that "Shannon" was a "she" instead of a "he."  The Citadel brought
    this up to the court, but the court was not interested.
    
    Since she has already shown herself to be a liar, I would not be
    surprised to see her brought up on honor board charges at some point
    in the future.  But hey, who knows?  Maybe her experience at the
    Citadel, under the microscope with the whole world looking on, will
    help to demonstrate to her how important honor is, especially to 
    someone seeking a military career.
    
    No matter what happens, Shannon Faulkner is going to have a tough
    row to hoe.  It certainly wouldn't be fair to judge all future female
    cadets based on her experiences.  But the courts have made the
    decision to force Shannon and the Citadel to change and grow 
    together, so one can only hope that the change, in both cases, will
    be for the best.
    
    
    Rob
    

    
    
    She was on of six to be overcome by the heat.  I caught some of the
    news last night, she seems to be a bit on the portly side from the
    photos that I saw last night.
    
    Mike

    If I remember boot camp (Paris Island) the standing at attention in
    this (or that weather) was for self decipline. They tell you up front
    how to stand so your knees don`t lock and wake you up at 2:00 A.M. to
    give you salt pills. Paris Island (IMO) was 90% decipline 10% strength.
    It was at ITR and BST that it got physical (again MO). AT P.I. we got 8
    hours sleep but at Gieger it was when ever they wanted to go for a 20
    mile hike be it 3:00 in the morning or 3:00 in the afternoon you went.
    Ahhh the good old days.

    
    It's called hell week for a reason ...

re: .225

    "PaRRis Island"

    NNTTM.
\john

ZZ    I feel sorry for everything that has happened to Shannon Faulkner, and
ZZ    I feel sorry for everything that is going to happen to her.  However,
ZZ    she asked for it.
    
    My sentiments exactly.  Against popular belief, I do NOT want Shannon
    Faulkner to fail.  However, if she is going to grab the title of
    martyrdom for the sake of social change, I want her to be worthy of
    it.
    
    -Jack

I'm sure she'll try her best, Jack.

    .223
    
    > distortions of her academic record on her application to disguise the
    > fact that "Shannon" was a "she" instead of a "he."
    
    Removal of irrelevant information is not distortion.  The student's
    gender has no bearing on his or her academic abilities.
    
    > but the court was not interested.
    
    And correctly so.  The Citadel accepts federal moneys and is thereby
    prohibited under penalty of law from discriminating on the basis of
    gender on its admissions.
    
    Faulkner will get what she will get.  The Citadel has received a black
    eye, in the view of anti-discrimination people for its archaic sexism,
    and in the view of Southern "traditionalists," for accepting a woman,
    even under duress.
    
    No one is helped by what has happened, and is happening.  It's not a
    nice world.

    
    I wonder what the reaction would have been if the Citadel had refused
    to take her, and either refuse all current government money, just
    closed down, or not taken any cadets this year.
    

    Dick:
    
    There are many schools, all women, who receive federal money.  I for
    one have this idea that these traditions should be maintained and that
    Shannon Faulkner went against protocol on this one.  
    
    Single gendered schools work...they have worked so we don't want
    anybody mucking up the waters!
    
    -Jack

    <<< Note 502.231 by DEVLPR::DKILLORAN "It ain't easy, bein' sleezy!" >>>

    
>    I wonder what the reaction would have been if the Citadel had refused
>    to take her, and either refuse all current government money, just
>    closed down, or not taken any cadets this year.
 
	Either would have been an acceptable response to the legal 
	problem. Not taking government money and boosting the tuition
	would have been an honorable way out of the mess.

	As it was they thought they could keep the money AND their
	tradition. The were wrong.

Jim   

      <<< Note 502.232 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I press on toward the goal" >>>

>    There are many schools, all women, who receive federal money. 

	And the law would apply equally to them should a male apply
	for admission.

Jim

    
    
    >>There are many schools, all women, who receive federal money.
    
    wasn't there an all-female school a few years ago that was forced to 
    allow admission of the male student who applied and got accepted???
    
    
    

    There have been cases where males tried to get into all women schools.
    I think these types should be neutered on sight!  I have no more
    respect for them than I do Shannon Faulkner.
    
    -Jack

    .235
    
    Dunno if it's the one you're thinking of, but Smith College, where my
    mother matriculated, is no longer single-sex.  Nor is Wesleyan
    University, where my father took his degree, any longer single-sex.

       > There have been cases where males tried to get into all women
       > schools. I think these types should be neutered on sight!  I have
       > no more respect for them than I do Shannon Faulkner.
       
       As always, Jack Martin displays, for all the world to see, his
       analytical approach to the social contract:  "If it's not
       something that I would do, why would anyone else want to do it, or
       even be allowed to do it?"
       
       Doesn't matter what the issue or question might be, Jack's
       approach is predictable and obsessively self-centered.  Way to go,
       Jack.
       
       --Mr Topaz

    re. .236  [men going to women's schools]
    
    A friend in high school did an English paper on single-sex colleges
    that had recently turned coed, then was admitted to one.
    
    We all had *lots* of respect for that dude...

    After hearing about Shannon Faulkner's sickness on her first day at
    the Citidel, I thought I would see if there was any mention of her on
    there WEB page.  The answer was no.
    
    However, there were these interesting statistics:
    
    All women (no males) colleges have produced 1/3 of all women board
    members of Fortune 1000 companies, 1/4 of women board members of
    Fortune 500 companies, and 1/2 of the women in Congress.  However, only
    4.5 % of women college graduates went to all women colleges.
    
    One could conclude that single sex education institutions produce
    outstanding achievers.  Of course, many BOXERS are going to disagree.

Binder, have you no shame?  Admitting right here in the 'box that your
mother matriculated?

>    One could conclude that single sex education institutions produce
>    outstanding achievers.

One could also conclude that single sex education institutions _accept_
outstanding achievers.

 
>>  <<< Note 502.240 by NOTIME::SACKS 

   see 17.6939  ;>

    re: .240
    
    Well... at least she didn't expectorate!!
    

    Or masticate.

    
    and obfuscate..
    

       re .241:
       
       > All women (no males) colleges have produced 1/3 of all women
       > board members of Fortune 1000 companies, 1/4 of women board
       > members of Fortune 500 companies, and 1/2 of the women in
       > Congress.  
       
       You conveniently, or ignorantly, neglect to list or even mention
       corresponding statistics: namely, that many, many more Fortune-n
       company board members graduated from Harvard and other all-male
       schools than graduated from all-female schools.

He's honor roll today....

    
    re: .247
    
    How about schools in Ohio????
    

       
       All they got is a football team in a crap conference, or
       drug-infested free-sex hippie places like Kenyon.

    What do you think of her first day at school?
    

    
    remind me to {smaq} you, later, andy...:> :>
    
    

She probably had her monthly...but how come
the guys fainted?

    
    Swooning in her presence, no doubt.
    

    
    re: .255
    
    Let's get this right Bonnie!!!
    
    Women "faint"
    
    
    Guys "Pass Out"!!

And women glisten
and men sweat, right?

Or are cadets allowed to sweat (or glisten)?

    re. 247
    
    Why don't you list those statistics for us.
    
    By the way, why did you omit the 4.5% number from my entry?  It was the
    most important number, but of course it was "so convenient" for you to
    omit.

re .258:

NoNoNo!  Horses sweat, men perspire, and women get dewy.

re .260

Truman, dammit!

Do we?

       � Bess certainly did.
       
       � Wood eye.

Glisten here.  You would.  We do.

    I thought it was "ladies glow"
    

that's when they're preggers...

      <<< Note 502.223 by MKOTS3::CASHMON "a kind of human gom jabbar" >>>
    
>    Knobs,
>    rooks, or plebes (depending which school you're at) 
    
    	You forgot doolies.  (Air Force Academy.)
    
    	And what are US Coast Guard Academy rookies called?

wet behind the ears?

Note 502.221          Benefits of Single Gendered Schools!            221 of 224
COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert"                       8 lines  14-AUG-1995 23:32
        -< Cadette in infirmary, misses tonights oath-taking ceremony >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK, whassamatta here?

Everyone afraid to post the news about Shannon ending up in the infirmary
suffering from heat exhaustion on her first day of training at the Citadel?

It is to be noted that five cadets also succumbed.

/john
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "Everyone afraid", oh yeah sure.  If that ain't a classic case of
    projection, I ain't never seen it.  No /john, here's MY theory.  That
    wasn't a very prominent news item at the time you posted it...  And I
    think that it was most likely to be ferreted out & trumpeted as BIG
    NEWS, first, by one who just LIVES to see his gnawing contempt of
    certain groups (I can think of at least two) "vindicated."  All the
    while projecting his shame at this behavior onto others, in the form of
    saying that they "obviously" share, but are AFRAID to express, the
    feelings that HE has.  Sorry pal, that dog won't hunt.
    
    In fact the ol' fella is looking pretty goldurned bedraggled...

    >        And what are US Coast Guard Academy rookies called?
    
    Fishbait?

  .269 methinks that's one nail that's been hit squarely
       on the head by our esteemed glow-in-the-dark beanie man.

.269

It was a rather astute observation.

    Perhaps Shannon's plan is to spend all of "hell week" in the infirmary.  
    This way, she can get out of doing any hard work.
    
    For someone who was going to be put in the national spotlight, who was
    going to break fertile ground at the all male Citadel, who was going to
    be an example to other women, she was poorly prepared.  I mean, she
    looks to be in pitiful shape.  It is not just a weight problem, but I
    think she must be lazy.
    
    When I was preparing for my physical for Naval Flight School, I was
    running six miles a day plus exercising my ass off.  I was doing that
    for six months prior to arriving in Pensacola.  I could easily have
    kept up with the Marine DI (Marine DIs have Navy flight guys for the
    first 13 weeks).  I was prepared.
    
    Shannon was NOT prepared, and judging from the looks of her, had put
    out "zero" effort at getting prepared.  Now she wants to sit back in
    the air conditioning while the others bust their ass.

    

                          I N   C O M I N G   ! ! ! ! 

re: .273

>    looks to be in pitiful shape.  It is not just a weight problem, but I
>    think she must be lazy.

Now, now. Let's keep facks and opinions separate.

She shore did look pitiful, though.

TTom

>    Shannon was NOT prepared, and judging from the looks of her, had put
>    out "zero" effort at getting prepared.  Now she wants to sit back in
>    the air conditioning while the others bust their ass.

I'm waiting for her sexual harrassment suit to be filed the first time
she gets roughed up by her sargent ...

Sergeant.  NNTTM.

    
    <---- I saw that, Gareld.
    

If I misspell a spelling correction, and Di doesn't see it, does it make
a sound?

>I'm waiting for her sexual harrassment suit to be filed the first time
>she gets roughed up by her sargent ...

>It is not just a weight problem, but I
>    think she must be lazy.

What pathetic slurs!!!  C'mon, ladies!!!
You can do better than that!!!  Why, I 
haven't even come across the "L" word yet!!!

    Heard on noon news that Shannon has been moved from the infirmary
    to a local hospital.  She has been rehydrated, but is still unable
    function.  Further tests will be done.
    
    Someone else in this string mentioned that she might have been
    skipping on fluids trying to lose some weight; if that's the case,
    she may have done serious damage to her kidneys (kidneys are first
    major organ to go if one is allowed to get REALLY dehydrated).
    
    The male cadets who collapsed have been released from the infirmary.
    
    

    Hope she comes out of this okay.  
    
    Again...the issue isn't whether or not she as a woman can succeed.  It
    has to do with the interference of a tradition that has proven
    successful for years.
    
    -Jack

    
    
    Gee Jack!!! I'm disappointed!! I thought for sure you'd take the last
    line of .282 and run with it!!
    
     :) :)
    

    	I don't understand the argument that "5 male cadets passed
    	out too".  This in no way shows that the regimen was too
    	strenuous.  Not all men are cut out for it either.  Those
    	that can't will get cut from the program (or should get cut
    	from the program) and if Faulkner can't keep up, she should
    	get cut too.

    
    
    Cuz, if it wasn't mentioned, it would have been used by someone to
    point out that the noter who entered about Faulkner was a sexist.

    
    There's a world of difference between "six people passed out and she
    was one of them" and "she passed out".  Not mentioning that she was not
    the only one who passed out makes it look as if she couldn't cut it
    simply because she was a woman.
    
    

     Wonder if she is with child?  Seems like an awful long time to be in
    the infirmary and hospital.
    
    Not commenting on her personal life, etc., just wondering.
    
    Dan

    Thank you Mike.  That's exactly why I entered it!!!!!
    
    Andy has always been a troublemaker...and he likes the Yankees and the
    Rangers too!

    >Not mentioning that she was not the only one who passed out makes it look 
    >as if she couldn't cut it simply because she was a woman.
    
    No, she just can't cut it period (no pun intended). She forces her
    entry into an all male school and shows that she is in the bottom 6 of
    her class. If the rumor is true, and she is the only one left in the
    hospital, then she is at the bottom of her class as far as physical
    endurance is concerned. We won't mention that she is female, but would
    anyone want to wager that she won't wash out?
    
    ...Tom

    
    "She forces her entry", hogwash.  She was ACCEPTED by the school and
    then the acceptance was withdrawn after they discovered she {gasp!} 
    DIDN'T HAVE A PENIS.
    
    Oh dear!  No penis?  What a drawback!  We certainly don't want anyone
    around who doesn't have a penis.
    
    
    
    

    	Well one theory is that the rigors of hell week were elevated
    	such that she was sure to fail, and that some or all of the 5
    	males are casualties of unfair requirements enacted purely to
    	oust Faulkner.  If she had been tougher, dozens of male recruits
    	would have fallen because of the scheme.

    Shannon has the right to succeed and the right to fail.  Success for
    her should not be guaranteed.  If she cannot make the grade, she should
    be cut.
    
    I will still say that for someone who wanted it so bad, she was poorly
    prepared.
    
    I wonder how she will make-up the time missed during hell week?  
    
    By the way, someone who takes diuretics to lose weight is trying to
    "cut corners".  Trying to do it the easy way.  Trying to get by on
    minimal effort.  If the diuretics rumor is true, perhaps Shannon cut
    one to many corners.

    re: .291
    
    Yes, forced. When you have to go to court to make anyone do something
    they either don't want to do or preset regulations preclude them from
    doing, that is force pure and simple.
    
    ...Tom

    
    re: .289
    
    > Andy has always been a troublemaker...
    
    {pained look on his face} Moi??? Beverly you jest!!!!
    
    >Yankees 
    
    Not this year (or maybe never again)... I'm boycotting MLB..
    
    >Rangers
    
     Never was a Ranger fan... (only when the Sovs were in town)
    
    

    
    
    So the fact that she was accepted means nothing?  The fact that The
    Citadel accepts taxpayer money means nothing?  They can still
    discriminate?
    
    Oh, I see.  Sorry I didn't understand such a simple concept.  You see,
    I don't have a penis.
    

    re. 291
    
    Apparently a penis serves most men well in hot weather.  Helps keep you
    cool and dissapates excess heat.  

    
    re: .291
    
    mz_deb...
    
    let me get this straight... You're talking about a penis??
    

    
    Brian Markey isn't the only one who can talk about penises!
    
    

Jeez, give her a break, will ya! (Shannon, that is, not Mz Deb, who can 
more than take care of herself among this tribe of renegade, thank you)

So she passed out. So she landed herself in the infirmary. Sheesh. Since 
when should a school pass/fail someone based on his/er first month, let 
alone first day?

Give it a rest for a while, then start yer babbling. 

Tom

    
    is that what i've become? the guy who talks about penises?
    
    oh dear. such a distinction al all...
    
    -b

        re: .302

    well, generally speaking, only your own, -b.  however, it must be nice
    to be an authoritative expert on *something*

He knows it like the back of his hand.

  .301  yeah, really.  she passed out from the heat, so she's already
	in "the bottom 6 of her class"?  please.

    ZZ    then the acceptance was withdrawn after they discovered she {gasp!} 
    ZZ    DIDN'T HAVE A PENIS.
    
    How do you know this?
    
    I mean afterall, this is the 90's.
    
    

	mz deb, lady 'tine, and gerald.  you guys are great. ;>
	
	deb, somehow when you say "penis", it's special.  it gives
	it a certain je ne sais quoi.  you have taken the penis to
	new heights, as it were.

    What about me?

    
    <-------
    
    You have one too???
    

    re. 301
    
    I vividly remember Shannon rejecting outright going to another school
    where a program similar to the Citadel's had been set up.  She said it
    would not be the same, it would "not have the tradition."  
    
    Well, "hell week" is part of the tradition at the Citadel and Shannon
    is sitting out this part of the tradition.  Apparently she likes to
    pick and choose what parts of the tradition she likes (easy parts) and
    what parts she does not like (hard parts).
    
    Also, a previous noter raised the issue that the Citadel might have
    made this hell week harder than in past years to insure that Shannon
    would fail.  This implies that there is a level of activity where women
    will fail and men will succeed.  Does the noter know where this level
    is?  Are there any women noters who would agree that there is such a
    level?  If the answer to both of these questions is "no", then we can
    dismiss any ideas that the Citadel made this an unusually hard hell
    week.
    
    

re: .303

>    well, generally speaking, only your own, -b.  however, it must be nice
>    to be an authoritative expert on *something*

Wait just a minute.  He's also a leading authority on bidets.

       > I vividly remember Shannon rejecting outright going to another
       > school where a program similar to the Citadel's had been set up.  
       
       And Rosa Parks couldda got where she was going just as easily,
       just as quickly, as with far less fuss if she hadn't insisted on
       that particular seat.

    RE: .305
    
    Out of context alert!!
    
    >.301  yeah, really.  she passed out from the heat, so she's already
    >in "the bottom 6 of her class"?
    
    Read on. I said as far as physical endurance is concerned. But why use
    facts when you can ride the emotional keyboard?
    
    ...Tom

    
>>    But why use
>>    facts when you can ride the emotional keyboard?

	<r.o.> which has to do with fornication and thou.

	She passed out, so she's already in "the bottom 6 of her class" as
	far as physical endurance is concerned??  Please.

    .314
    
    >She passed out, so she's already in "the bottom 6 of her class" as far
    >as physical endurance is concerned??  Please.
    
    Um....yes.
    
    Why wouldn't that place her there?

    
    >Well, "hell week" is part of the tradition at the Citadel and Shannon
    >is sitting out this part of the tradition.  Apparently she likes to
    >pick and choose what parts of the tradition she likes (easy parts) and
    >what parts she does not like (hard parts).
    
    Getting admitted to the hospital is not exactly picking and choosing
    to sit out that part of the tradition.
    
    
    
    

    
>>    Um....yes.
    
>>    Why wouldn't that place her there?

	Um....how many people get ranked after their first day of 
	anything? 

    >And Rosa Parks couldda got where she was going just as easily,
    >just as quickly, as with far less fuss if she hadn't insisted on
    >that particular seat.
    
    Non Sequitur to the max!!
    
    ...Tom

    
    were there not others (with peni) that passed out during hell week? are
    they taking the easy way out, too, or were they really ill from the
    heat?
    

    
    THEY were ill from the heat.  SHE was taking the easy way out.
    
    

    re. 319
    
    The men have a right to fail to.  They have all been released by the
    infirmary and are now back at hell week.  Only Shannon is missing out
    on the tradition.

    .318
    It seemed very sequitous to me...
    
    .317
    >Um....how many people get ranked after their first day of
    >anything?
    
    Cadets. 1st day, you run. Your run is timed. The time yields a rank.
    If you don't cross the finish line, you're at the bottom.

    
    
    Then you become a road guard...
    

    Or a speed bump...

>Cadets. 1st day, you run. Your run is timed.

They get 3 chances to come under the time limit.

She will have to run 2 miles in a little under 19 minutes.

The guys have to run 2 miles in a lesser time, around 16 minutes,
I believe.

>    were there not others (with peni) that passed out during hell week?

They had small ones, no doubt.

       <<< Note 502.294 by DASHER::RALSTON "Idontlikeitsojuststopit!!" >>>

>    Yes, forced. When you have to go to court to make anyone do something
>    they either don't want to do or preset regulations preclude them from
>    doing, that is force pure and simple.
    
Tom,	Do you feel "forced" to not commit murder? All Faulkner did was
	require that the Citadel obey the law. It says more about them
	than it does about her that it took 2 years of court action
	to explain this to them.

Jim

    .325
    
    I'm not saying she failed. I'm just saying she was ranked, and ended up
    in the bottom of her class. Frankly, I'm disappointed. After all that
    tenacity it took to get in, I was hoping she'd kick a little @ss. Well,
    as you pointed out, she still has a chance.

  .322  I'm talking about ranked as she was by Mr. Ralston in this note -

>>       <<< Note 502.290 by DASHER::RALSTON "Idontlikeitsojuststopit!!" >>>
>>    No, she just can't cut it period (no pun intended). She forces her
>>    entry into an all male school and shows that she is in the bottom 6 of
>>    her class... [physical-endurance-wise, according to him] 

	He says that she can't cut it period.  This is supported by his
	next statement, as though her first day proves it.  As though
	that is her ranking now and forever.  It may well be, but she
	hasn't had a fair chance to show what she's capable of yet.

>    I'm not saying she failed. I'm just saying she was ranked, and ended up
>    in the bottom of her class. Frankly, I'm disappointed.

Me too.  It's not a very auspicious start.  And guaranteed, it _will_
be remembered by all.

    
    > And guaranteed, it _will_ be remembered by all.
    
    As will the fact that she doesn't have a penis...
    

    
    Glad to have been of service, Andy 8^).
    
    

	>>And guaranteed, it _will_ be remembered by all.

	I would think particularly by Shannon "easy-way-out" Faulkner. ;>
	I'm sure she's just tickled pink right about now.  Prolly didn't
	want to do well at all, nope.  

    
      Well, no.  But she has other things unique in Citadel history.
    
      bb

Well, as Elaine on Seinfeld says:

"I don't know how you guys walk around with those things."

    
    re: .333
    
    >tickled pink 
    
    Actually, heat exhaustion causes the skin to pale considerably..
    
    :)
    

                     <<< Note 502.310 by MIMS::SANDERS_J >>>
    
>    Also, a previous noter raised the issue that the Citadel might have
>    made this hell week harder than in past years to insure that Shannon
>    would fail.  This implies that there is a level of activity where women
>    will fail and men will succeed.  Does the noter know where this level
>    is?  Are there any women noters who would agree that there is such a
>    level?  If the answer to both of these questions is "no", then we can
>    dismiss any ideas that the Citadel made this an unusually hard hell
>    week.
    
    	I mentioned the theory, though I reject it outright.  To answer
    	some of your questions, though, I do not believe that there is
    	some level where women will fail and men will succeed.  I wouldn't
    	be surprised that there is some woman out there who is more fit
    	and stronger than the majority of men who made it through hell
    	week at the Citadel, and had SHE been there instead of Faulkner,
    	and had the theory held true, then more than half of the class
    	would have collapsed during hell week.
    
    	But we are not talking about that particular woman.  It was 
    	Faulkner who was at the Citadel, and as the results show 
    	(assuming the theory is true) she fell before many of the rest
    	of the class fell, and she fell harder.  And assuming the
    	theory is true, what is to say that those five males would not
    	have fallen anyway?
    
    	To help debunk or add credibility to the theory, are there
    	generally a few such casualties each year?  If not, maybe
    	there is something to the theory.

    If she was 20 lbs. overweight, what was she doing there in the first
    place?
    
    

    re. 329
    
    "she has'nt had a fair chance"
    
    What the hell was unfair about the first day?

    
    >What the hell was unfair about the first day?
    
    
    
    The weight of all the media around her????

    RE: .329
    
    >He says that she can't cut it period.
    
     BS, please show where I said such a thing.
    
    RE: .294
    
    >Do you feel "forced" to not commit murder?
    
    Come on Jim. I think that you know that murder is force in the extreme!
    
    ...Tom

    
    Oh, fer the good ole days when wimmins knew their place.
    
    

    re. 340
    
    It was not the weight of the media that caused her a problem, but the
    weight around her frame.

    
    >Oh, fer the good ole days when wimmins knew their place.
    
    
    
                           ATTA GIRL!!!!!!!!!!
    

    
    .341
    
    See .290.
    
    

>       <<< Note 502.341 by DASHER::RALSTON "Idontlikeitsojuststopit!!" >>>
    
>>     BS, please show where I said such a thing.

    hello?  didn't you write .290, which i was quoting?

    ZZZ   Oh, fer the good ole days when wimmins knew their place.
    
    Mz. Debra:
    
    You are making this a gender thing...like Shannon Faulkner has been
    victimized.
    
    To me, yes, it is a matter of breaking traditions that have proven
    highly successful.  Any male who fights to attend Vasser should in my
    opinion be changed from a Rooster to a hen with one shot.  They should
    be stripped naked and tied to a dock for high tide.  But I digress.
    
    When it comes to military matters, a person who does not meet the
    standards....simply can't play.  It's that simple.  If you're five
    pounds overweight, you are horizontally challenged here at Digital.  If
    you are 5 lbs. over in the military, you are fat...you are probably
    undisciplined, and you are not allowed!
    
    -Jack who would be deemed a fat slob, and undisciplined!

I gotta admit tho, I think she dropped the ball a tad
in the physical fitness department.  For her own sake,
and knowing what she was going to face at the chitadel, 
well, a strong body aids a strong mind and all that...

    
    Meaty, *I* didn't make it a gender thing.  The Citadel did by
    withdrawing her acceptance when they discovered she was penisally
    challenged.
    
    She was acceptable to them when they thought she was "properly"
    equipped. 

>>                     <<< Note 502.339 by MIMS::SANDERS_J >>>
    
>>    What the hell was unfair about the first day?

	Nothing.  I didn't say the first day was unfair.  The fair
	chance I'm alluding to is from 'boxers such as yourself, who
	are unwilling to allow that there may be mitigating factors
	wrt her performance on the first day.  One day doesn't prove
	anything.  She may well fail, but making blanket assessments
	after one day is hardly fair.  Then again, you've made some
	totally ridiculous statements about this whole matter over
	the past few days, so I guess I shouldn't be bothering to argue
	with you.

    >didn't you write .290, which i was quoting?
    
    Yes but I was speaking in regards to the first day, which I believe is
    what was being discussed. I ment she can't handle it physically. That
    was all.
    
    ...Tom

    	Maybe they should have simply accepted her right from the get-go
    	and drummed her out on lack of physical ability as seems will
    	happen anyway.  Then we could have been spared the circus and
    	this would have all been a faded memory by now.
    
    	Isn't 20-20 hindsight wonderful?

    When it is all said and done. I think that all should be given the
    opportunity, whether male or female. It is true that this government
    run institution is one of the last bastians of unrealistic machoism.
    However, they shouldn't ever have to lower their physical or academic
    standards in order to accomodate anyone. It just appears to me that the
    first women to break the male barrier should have made sure that she
    was physically and mentally prepared to compete in this environment, an
    environment in which she was expected, by some, and hoped, by others,
    that she would fail. It would be a shame if she can't make the grade.
    It would be more of a shame if she can't make the grade but gets to
    stay anyway.
    
    ...Tom

       <<< Note 502.341 by DASHER::RALSTON "Idontlikeitsojuststopit!!" >>>

>    Come on Jim. I think that you know that murder is force in the extreme!
 
	Indeed. But you have not answered my question. The goverment has some
	very forceful laws, with significant penalties, that prohibit
	murder. THey use this threat of force to discourage murder.

	They also have laws regarding discrimination at publicly funded
	institutions of learning. The penalties are different, but the
	idea of "government force" applies to both situations.

	You say that Shannon Faulkner "forced" her way into the
	Citadel. All she really did was ask that the government's laws
	be obeyed. If we accept your use of the term "force", then we
	are "forced" to do things, or not do things, every day by the
	threat of the government's "force". Hence my question to you.
	Do you feel "forced" to not commit murder (AKA Obey the laws
	regarding murder)? Or did you misuse the term?

Jim 

    re: .354, Jim
    
    I'm not sure how to answer your question. The power that the people
    give the government to back laws with force, that is laws that are 
    political policy, is IMO what is wrong with the country. I think, as
    I'm sure 99.9999 (just a guess so please don't beat me with it) of the
    populas would agree that murder is an objective crime. This would
    preclude a law that says murder is against the law because it is
    unwanted force against an individual, which would make its illegality
    axiomatic. So I guess my answer to your question would be yes.
    
    I will concede that the case of the military school, supported by
    taxpayer dollars, is a situation where anyone should be allowed to
    compete. However, I don't think that a private institution should be
    forced to go contrary to their charter, unless that charter consisted
    of force, coersion or fraud against individuals or group of individuals.
    
    ...Tom

       <<< Note 502.355 by DASHER::RALSTON "Idontlikeitsojuststopit!!" >>>

>    I will concede that the case of the military school, supported by
>    taxpayer dollars, is a situation where anyone should be allowed to
>    compete. However, I don't think that a private institution should be
>    forced to go contrary to their charter, unless that charter consisted
>    of force, coersion or fraud against individuals or group of individuals.
 
Tom,	On this we agree. And since the Citadel is, at least partially,
	taxpayer funded, I take it that you then agree that the government,
	via its court system, was correct in requiring the Citadel to 
	admit women. Correct?

Jim

    i have to disagree with Jack and Jim on the position that a public
    institution can break with tradition simply based on $$$'s and a
    private one doesn't have too... 
    
    are you guys saying that if a private institution's charter
    discriminates or violates other civil liberties/rights that
    it's alright because no "public" money is involved?
    
    another penis observation...  evidently, a penis has a great deal to
    do with the body's recovery powers since Shannon was the last to leave
    the infirmary :-)

    SillyBoy.  More cutaneous surface area whence excess heat may be shed
    implies faster recovery from excess-heat-caused-problems.  QED.
    
    :-)
    

    -1 ahhhh, thanks!

                    <<< Note 502.357 by WMOIS::GIROUARD_C >>>

>    are you guys saying that if a private institution's charter
>    discriminates or violates other civil liberties/rights that
>    it's alright because no "public" money is involved?
	
	"Alright" as in "correct" or "a good thing", no. "Alright" as
	in "legal", yes.

	If the Citadel had simply said, "OK, we will no longer accept
	government funds" then they can set their own admission rules
	and the courts would have allowed them to keep women out.

Jim

    -1 think so? I would've thought that would be determined discriminatory
       by the court and a violation of her constitional rights...
    
       i could be wrong.

    .358
    
    Of course, the mammaries, what with that interior tubing and all, are
    most efficient radiators.

   .351  speaking of "BS".... sheesh.

                    <<< Note 502.361 by WMOIS::GIROUARD_C >>>

>    -1 think so? I would've thought that would be determined discriminatory
>       by the court and a violation of her constitional rights...
    
>       i could be wrong.


	There is nothing in the law that requires private institutions 
	(or individuals for that matter) not to discriminate. Nor should
	there be, IMO.

Jim

    
      Not quite correct.  If you are "an accomodation" operating in
     interstate commerce (and a school might well be so considered),
     then the Constitution gives the USA authority to regulate you, and
     the Civil Rights Act of 1964 does just that.  This was the key
     question in the St. Pat's parade case - the court, after much
     deliberation, decided a parade WAS NOT an accomodation operating
     in interstate commerce.  But there are plenty of federal statutes
     and case law that says you CANNOT operate a private restaraunt, a
     private hotel, or a private recreational facility which violates
     the anti-discriminatory provisions of the Act.  You CAN operate
     these private accomodations, and you CAN exclude non-members, but
     you CANNOT operate them in a discriminatory manner against the
     groups specifically listed in the Act (only).  I don't agree with
     all of this, but that's the way it is at present.
    
      bb

    .365
    
    Which part of the consitution gives such power to the Congress?

       accommodation

	an "accommodation"?  i wonder how they define that.

    
    Article I, Section 5, Paragraph 3 :
    
     "The Congress shall have the power to regulate commerce with foreign
    nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes."
    
     This was the key in the Lopez gun-free school zone case.  The USA
    claimed he was operating in Interstate Commerce, the Court ruled the
    law unconstitutional (just this year), saying he wasn't.  If Lopez
    had crossed a state line, it would have gone the other way.
    
      bb

    How the he!! does a restaurant cross state lines?????
    
    Talk about usurping power...

    Let's say I did something like this. I open a restaurant called the
    "Tom's Only Club" and in order to eat at my restaurant you have to
    apply and become a member. The only absolute requirement is that you
    have to be named Tom or Thomas to become a member and must have
    documentation to prove it. My restaurant soon gets the reputation of
    being the best restaurant in the country. Everyone is clamoring to eat
    there. One day Jim applies because for years his nickname has been Tom.
    The restuarant denies his application based on it's rules. Jim decides
    to take his case to court. QUESTION: Should the courts get involved and
    if so should they force the restaurant to take Jim as member.
    
    
    Oh, by the way Jim P., in regards to .356, the answer is yes, except
    that I don't think that schools should be supported by tax dollars at
    all, especially my tax dollars.
    
    ...Tom

    
    > She will have to run 2 miles in a little under 19 minutes.
    > The guys have to run 2 miles in a lesser time, around 16 minutes,
    > I believe.

    Why does she get the extra 3 minutes?

    re:.350
    
    > Then again, you've made some totally ridiculous statements about 
    > this whole matter over the past few days, so ....

    errr..... Lady Di, he's not the only one to make ridiculous statements
    about this recently...

    Re:.353

    > It would be more of a shame if she can't make the grade but gets to
    > stay anyway.

    No, it would be more than a shame, it would make a farce of the whole
    situation.  It would be morally wrong...(IMO, etc..)

    re:.358

    > SillyBoy.  More cutaneous surface area whence excess heat may be shed
    > implies faster recovery from excess-heat-caused-problems.  QED.

    aaahhhh, so that's why I'm always cold..... ;->

    Stupid question... Can a guy join the NOW organization?

    Dan

    
    
    re: stupid question...
    
    Ask DougO
    

    
    Yes, males can join NOW.
    
    

    
    
    Then they can be paid to picket...
    

    .371
    
    Verdict:
    Jim gets beaten with a blunt object for such a stupid lawsuit.

    
      Ralston :  you slink by.  The Congress has the power to prohibit
     "Tom's Only Club" from this policy, but it has not done so, so
     you can restrict to people named Tom.  But you cannot do the same
     for race.  As originally written, you COULD do it by gender, but
     you cannot today because Congress amended it.  I am not sure what
     Congress has said, if anything, about sexual preference, but there
     is no doubt they have the power.
    
      However, you might be able to escape them in court in this way :
     restrict your clientele, and your menu, to only people and foods
     from the state in which you are located !  Then, argue that you
     ARE NOT operating in interstate commerce.  I'm not sure whether
     you'd win or lose that one.
    
      bb

    This is SUCH a huge abuse of power!
    
    The act of importing the food from another state is the interstate
    commerce. THEN THE INTERSTATE COMMERCE STOPS!
    
    If I want to sell Idaho baked potatoes in my restaurant, I get
    regulated by the feds? 
    
    Christ, give me a break. And a new federal government, while you're at
    it.

    A private institution has the right to discriminate and that right
    should not be impeded.  If you have an all black male club, then you
    have the right to refuse white males or any females, etc.  
    
    -Jack

       Messrs Martin and Covington would apparently like to return to the
       glory days of segregation.
       
       This "abuse of power" to which Covington refers is precisely the
       theory by which the federal government prohibited Lester Maddox
       from allowing only white people into his restaurant.  
       
       Martin and Covington would apparently be perfectly content  to
       have repealed the federal law, based on interstate commerce, that
       prohibits restaurants and hotels from refusing people service
       based on their color.
       
       --Mr Topaz

>>    errr..... Lady Di, he's not the only one to make ridiculous statements
>>    about this recently...

	I didn't say he was.  I can think of a couple of other people.

    >Martin and Covington would apparently be perfectly content  to
    >have repealed the federal law, based on interstate commerce,
    >that prohibits restaurants and hotels from refusing people service
    >based on their color.
    
    You can add my name to this list as well. If some stupid businessman
    is willing to lose sales by using discrimination, let him. I'll be the
    guy to open up down the street and take all that business.
    
    ...Tom

    Mr. Topaz:
    
    You don't realize it but you are trying to legislate
    morality...something you usually squak about regarding pro lifers and
    the school prayer crowd.  The pendulum swings both ways.  
    
    I hold my nose and accept government regulations regarding these
    matters.  Like Tom, I believe a hotel or restaurant who discriminates
    as was done in the 60's is most likely to self destruct.
    
    However, I was addressing private clubs in my note.  I believe the
    American Legion for example, has the right to discriminate against
    me...and I should respect their reasons.  Same with the girl scouts, 
    ACT UP, an all black night club, the Ku Klux Klan, whomever...it is
    their perogative and it isn't mine to question.
    
    People equate the Citadel to machoism.  I disagree with this.  It is a
    school receiving state funds who prefers to remain traditional and 
    attended by those with members.  Vasser College is a prestigious
    school, attended by women only.  I personally respect this tradition
    because I understand the benefits of it.  People such as yourself or 
    the lovely chunky lady seem to poo poo this respect.  Oh well!
    
    -Jack

    
      It is not possible to read everything written on the history of
     the interstate commerce provision.  Since 1787, it always was
     interpreted to give the US Congress considerable powers, but not
     such things (all justified under this provision) as OSHA, EPA,
     TVA, the Civil Rights Acts, gun laws, you name it.  Historically,
     FDR got elected promising to fix a broken economy, with a heavy
     New Deal majority to boot, but every new law they passed, SCOTUS
     knocked down.  With time, FDR got smart young lawyers (Cohen/Corcoran,
     etc), and some SCOTUS appointments, and the Interstate Commerce
     clause was used successfully to OK the Social Security Act, plus
     many others.  Later, LBJ used the same trick for Civil Rights, and
     Clinton is trying to do it with gun bans, with less success.
    
      Of course, on a purely logical level, it seems weird that the US
     Constitution bars the feds from interfering in your life, until
     you affect interstate commerce, and then suddenly they can order
     you around like a robot.  But that's what the courts say it means,
     and if you read it straight out, maybe they're right.  Whole books
     have been written about this.  I researched it a bit after the
     Lopez, and was amazed at the vast literature on the subject.
    
      bb

Shannon Faulkner pronounced fit to return to duty,
but misses morning run


(c) 1995 Copyright the News & Observer Publishing Co.

(c) 1995 Associated Press

CHARLESTON, S.C. (Aug 18, 1995 - 09:30 EDT) -- Despite
being pronounced fit to return to duty, the first female cadet at
The Citadel missed her classmates' 6 a.m. jog today and still had
not rejoined her cadet company hours later.

Shannon Faulkner was expected to report to her company after
breakfast after spending most of her first week as a cadet, the
grueling "hell week," in the infirmary for apparent heat-related
illness.

She underwent tests at a hospital Thursday and had been deemed
fit. But Citadel spokesman Terry Leedom said the school's doctor
reported this morning that Ms. Faulkner still was not ready to
take up the cadets' regimen.

Leedom would not comment further except to say he thought that
by the end of the day today she would be ready.

Ms. Faulkner, who battled in court for 2 1/2 years to join the
all-male corps, was admitted to the college infirmary on Monday
after marching in 100-degree heat. She was taken to Roper
Hospital on Thursday for undisclosed tests.

Ed Faulkner said his 20-year-old daughter had been vomiting and
was treated for dehydration.

"She couldn't keep anything down until last evening and I am told
she was able to keep some toast down last night," said Citadel
spokeswoman Judith Fluck.

Heat illnesses are not uncommon at the college. College officials
said one cadet was taken on a stretcher from a physical fitness
test Wednesday for treatment of heat stress. Two others were
taken to the hospital Thursday for treatment.

Ms. Faulkner missed a large part of "hell week," the first week of
training for freshmen, and will have to catch up on her study of
the honor manual and cadet regulations.

AP-DS-08-18-95 0917EDT 

    .380
    (Digging a really deep hole...)
    (Filling sandbags with dirt from said hole...)
    (Stacking sandbags around, taking defensive position...)
    
    >Martin and Covington would apparently be perfectly content  to have
    >repealed the federal law, based on interstate commerce, that prohibits
    >restaurants and hotels from refusing people service based on their
    >color.
    
    Ummm.....yup.
    (DUCK!)
    
    Can't speak for Martin, but that would be fine with me (and preferred!)
    I would also feel comfortable with replacing "their color" in the above
    sentence with "the time of day," "religious beliefs," "musical
    preferences," "current alignment of planets," etc...
    
    Some qualifications: (aren't there always?)
    I would not operate such a business.
    I would not eat at such a business.
    I wouldn't even visit such a business.
    I strongly believe, however, that such a business should be allowed to
    exist.
    
    Name the speaker: (I forget who it is - I should know this.)
    "I disagree with what you say, sir, but I will defend to the death your
    right to say it."

    So Shannon misses most of hell week.  How convenient!

    
    
    I agree with ::COVINGTON on this.  
    
    
    Mike

                     <<< Note 502.365 by GAAS::BRAUCHER >>>

    
>      Not quite correct.  If you are "an accomodation" operating in
>     interstate commerce (and a school might well be so considered),
>     then the Constitution gives the USA authority to regulate you, and
>     the Civil Rights Act of 1964 does just that.  

	True concerning the limitations on operating a public accomodation.
	But I don't believe schools fall into this category. Schools are
	covered under Title IX (or is is X?) of the US Code. It was under
	this section that Shannon Faulkner filed, not the CRA.

Jim

    
    (digging fox hole right next to Jim and Mike)
    
    That makes three of us!
    

    
>>    (digging fox hole right next to Jim and Mike)

	a cave would be more appropriate.

    
    Well M'Lady, 
    
    Just because we think they have a right to do such a thing doesn't mean
    we'd do such a thing or frequent a place like this, I would not.  I look 
    at it as part of the price of freedom in this country.  I know that it
    probably makes me unpopular, but to me it is a question of freedom in a
    free country as opposed to a discrimination issue.  It is a prvate
    enterpirise after all.
    
    Mike  

    
    
    Just announced on the radio that there are unconfirmed reports that
    Shannon is droppin out of the Citadel.
    
    

    
    
    Hmmmmmmm.... who to blame... who to blame?
    

 Who's she going to sue is the question.

  oh brother

Shannon Faulkner pronounced fit to return to duty, but misses morning run
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

(c) 1995 Copyright the News & Observer Publishing Co.

(c) 1995 Associated Press

CHARLESTON, S.C. (Aug 18, 1995 - 15:36 EDT) -- The first female cadet at The
Citadel missed another morning of grueling "hell week" indoctrination today,
and a television station reported that her father planned to take her home.

Just one week after two U.S. Supreme Court justices paved the way for her to
enter the school's all-male cadet corps, Shannon Faulkner spent a fifth day
at the school infirmary. She had fallen ill of apparent heat-related
problems Monday after beginning the school's tough military regimen.

WSPA-TV in Spartanburg quoted an unidentified source as saying at midday
that Ms. Faulkner's father, Ed, had said he was "going down to get Shannon."
The elder Faulkner had said earlier that his 20-year-old daughter had been
vomiting and was treated for dehydration.

There was no answer at Faulkner's parents' home in Powdersville early this
afternoon.

On Thursday, Ms. Faulkner was examined at a hospital and deemed fit to
return to duty today.

But she again missed activities this morning after infirmary staff said she
was not ready. School spokesman Terry Leedom said the plan was still for her
to return to her company sometime today.

"She was still a patient in the infirmary and she is still scheduled
sometime today to return to duty," Leedom said early this afternoon. "We're
trying to get her back to duty, we're trying to get her back to health.
Medical personnel feel she is not ready to return to duty yet."

"We hope to learn something more soon," he said at yet another briefing at
midafternoon. "The rumors are out there, you've heard the rumors and we'll
deal with the rumors as we can. But right now, I can't shoot down any of the
rumors or add any credibility to any of them."

Ms. Faulkner battled in court for 2 1/2 years to join the all-male corps. A
week ago today, the day before new cadets were to arrive at the school, two
Supreme Court justices turned down without comment a bid by college
officials to keep her out.

Heat illnesses are not uncommon at the college. College officials said one
cadet was taken on a stretcher from a physical fitness test Wednesday for
treatment of heat stress. Two others were taken to the hospital Thursday for
treatment.

Ms. Faulkner "couldn't keep anything down until last evening and I am told
she was able to keep some toast down last night," said Citadel spokeswoman
Judith Fluck.

Ms. Faulkner has been under continual stress since early 1993, when she
launched her court fight after The Citadel withdrew its acceptance of her
college application when officials realized she was a woman. References to
her gender had been deleted from her high school transcripts.

She had received death threats and her Powdersville home was vandalized.
Bumper stickers and T-shirts appeared with slogans "Shave Shannon" and "Save
The Males," during the fight.

Even last Saturday, her first day as cadet, she was largely left alone by
the other first-year cadets.

She had been allowed to take classes at The Citadel before this week, but
not take the military training.

The state of South Carolina wants to create a separate women's leadership
program at another college, but plans for that program have not been
approved by the courts. While the two Supreme Court justices allowed Ms.
Faulkner to enter the school this year, the larger question of whether
separate but equal educational facilities for women are constitutional has
not been resolved by the courts.

    
    she didn't look too buffed from the photos I saw; 
    
    how long  has she had to prepare herself for PT and 
    a military regimen?
    
    if this was what she wanted logic would have dictated that
    she would have done training in the heat to enable her to 
    last through hell week.

Is anyone besides me sick of hearing about this?  It's getting to be as bad
as OJ.  Shannon's vomit is getting as much publicity as George Bush's.

>>               <<< Note 502.398 by CALDEC::RAH "Hey hey hey.." >>>
    
>>    if this was what she wanted logic would have dictated that
>>    she would have done training in the heat to enable her to 
>>    last through hell week.

	yeah, her and the other people who passed out.  but 
	apparently heat sickness is not uncommon there, if you
	believe the reports of what officials have said.

    Latest news says that she is quitting the Citadel. 
    News reports say that her attorney and the Commander have confirmed
    this.
    
    Dan

 

 Wonder if they'll throw a going away party for her?

    re .401 et. al.
    
    	Well, that reduces credibility of the theory that the rigors
    	of hell week were elevated to oust Faulkner...

Shannon Faulkner quits Citadel before ever really getting started
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

(c) 1995 Copyright the News & Observer Publishing Co.

(c) 1995 Associated Press

CHARLESTON, S.C. (Aug 18, 1995 - 17:30 EDT) -- The first female cadet at The
Citadel quit the state military college today after missing the crucial,
grueling "hell week" indoctrination.

"I will tell you right now, today has been the hardest day of my life,"
Shannon Faulkner said. "The past 2 1/2 years came crashing down on me in an
instant."

Just one week after two U.S. Supreme Court justices paved the way for her to
enter the school's all-male cadet corps, her attorney Suzanne Coe said Ms.
Faulkner was overcome by nerves.

"It's very hard for her," Ms. Coe said. "She's a 20-year-old girl and it's
hard to anticipate what happens next."

Ms. Faulkner said she had "no idea" what she would do next.

"I know my life is going to be miserable for a while," she said. "I'll just
have to deal with it the best I can.

"It's not going to do my attorneys any good if I just get in there and have
a mental breakdown or anything like that," she said.

When Ms. Faulkner's decision filtered out around campus, other cadets
cheered and horns sounded.

The choice ended a week of speculation about Ms. Faulkner's fitness that
began on Monday when she was taken to the infirmary with a heat related
illness.

She spent most of her first week under a doctor's treatment and was taken to
a hospital for tests on Thursday morning.

"I don't think there's any dishonor in leaving," Ms. Faulkner said. "I think
there's dis-justice in my staying and killing myself just for the political
point."

On Thursday, Ms. Faulkner was examined at a hospital and deemed fit to
return to duty today. But she again missed activities this morning after
infirmary staff said she was not ready.

Ms. Faulkner battled in court for 2 1/2 years to join the all-male corps. A
week ago today, the day before new cadets were to arrive at the school, two
Supreme Court justices turned down without comment a bid by college
officials to keep her out.

Heat illnesses are not uncommon at the college. College officials said one
cadet was taken on a stretcher from a physical fitness test Wednesday for
treatment of heat stress. Two others were taken to the hospital Thursday for
treatment.

Ms. Faulkner "couldn't keep anything down until last evening and I am told
she was able to keep some toast down last night," said Citadel spokeswoman
Judith Fluck.

Ms. Faulkner has been under continual stress since early 1993, when she
launched her court fight after The Citadel withdrew its acceptance of her
college application when officials realized she was a woman. References to
her gender had been deleted from her high school transcripts.

She had received death threats and her Powdersville home was vandalized.
Bumper stickers and T-shirts appeared with slogans "Shave Shannon" and "Save
The Males," during the fight.

Even last Saturday, her first day as cadet, she was largely left alone by
the other first-year cadets.

She had been allowed to take classes at The Citadel before this week, but
not take the military training.

The state of South Carolina wants to create a separate women's leadership
program at another college, but plans for that program have not been
approved by the courts. While the two Supreme Court justices allowed Ms.
Faulkner to enter the school this year, the larger question of whether
separate but equal educational facilities for women are constitutional has
not been resolved by the courts.

    So, when does the {book, made-for-teevee-movie, talk show rounds}
    come out?
    
    Chris

Of course, Shannon is only one of 24 cadets who dropped out of the Citadel
this week.

/john

    .397
    
    What legal process allows two Supreme Court Justices to make a
    decision? I never heard o' that.
    
    It's too bad she made that comment about it being a political point. I
    think her physical shape (overweight) shows it. If she had been really
    serious about being a cadet, I think she would have been in better
    shape entering.

    
    
  >When Ms. Faulkner's decision filtered out around campus, other cadets
  >cheered and horns sounded.

  let's hope they grow up before they get into the real military, where
  working both for and with women is essential to the well-being of the
  national defense.  will they be cheering for the woman helicopter pilot
  flying in their supplies and medicine to be shot down one day?  somehow
  i doubt it.  nope, they'll be hoping that her military training was the 
  very best possible because it would increase her chances of a successful
  mission, which would increase their chances as well.  they'll just
  hope she got it somewhere else besides their mynly (in deference to 
  deep-south pc) alma-mater.  a pathetic display by kids who seem to be
  in the wrong place to learn any better, at least for the next four years.   

  bill

 What does a graduate of the Citadel do upon graduation?  enter the military?
 become cops?  Work at Burger King?  What?




 Jim

Second louie, U.S. Army.

    
    	ROTC?
    
    

    .412> Second louie, U.S. Army.
    
    ... as in Louie, Louie??!!!!???  NOW we know where the woids come from!!
    

    
    I agree with bill.  I certainly hope those cadets who cheered and
    celebrated grow up a bit before they're called upon to defend the
    U.S.A.  I certainly don't feel a bit sure that they'd be interested in
    protecting ME.
    
    I'm disappointed that Shannon dropped out, but evidently about 200
    other women have expressed interest (letters/applications?) in
    attending The Citadel.  

    
    Bill completely missed the point (as did the incomparable Mz_Debra, 
    I regret to say.)  If anyone thinks that the cadets' celebration was
    just a misogynistic hatefest directed at all women, they have failed
    to recognize the most essential element of this 2 1/2 year debacle.
    
    Shannon Faulkner illustrated this feature perfectly with her comment
    that there would be "dis-justice(?) in my staying and killing myself
    just for the political point."
    
    Just for the political point.  There it is, right there.
    ----------------------------
    
    Shannon Faulkner never gave a damn about the Citadel and its history
    and traditions.  For Shannon, this was all done just for the 
    political point, so Shannon could try to become a feminist heroine
    by forcing "equality" on those backward redneck good ol' boys.  It 
    is entirely laudable for Shannon Faulkner to have striven for this
    goal, but it was completely despicable of her to have used the
    Citadel in this manner.  And it is Shannon Faulkner's utter lack of
    respect for the Citadel and for tradition that has resulted in her
    being hated by the cadets, and their celebration at her untimely
    departure.
    
    I don't even know if it's really possible to understand what I'm 
    getting at here without having lived at least a little bit of it.
    Suffice it to say that the Citadel is much more important, and even
    revered and holy, in the minds of the young men who become cadets than
    most of you realize.  If you go to a civilian school, you pretty much
    just want to go to a good school.  Whether it's UMASS-Boston or 
    UMASS-Amherst or UMASS-Lowell is of fairly little consequence.  These
    young men at the Citadel have been hearing, and thinking, about the
    Citadel all their lives.  They take it very seriously.
    
    I am on familiar ground here.  For me, it was West Point.  My father,
    a career NCO, saw the way the Academy grads were treated and treated
    each other, and decided he wanted that for his son.  I had the
    USMA crest and "Duty-Honor-Country" carved into my heart before I was
    even born.  He brought me there twice before I was ten years old, just
    to get used to the place.  I was the kid in the library checking out
    biographies of Patton, Bradley, Macarthur and Eisenhower while the
    other kids were reading books about football or baseball players.
    It was my inescapable and inexorable destiny to go to West Point, so
    I did.  Note:  I am not saying any of this was necessarily a 
    good thing, nor am I complaining.  What's done is done.
    
    Most of the cadets at the Citadel have a similar history.  Their
    brothers went there.  Their fathers and grandfathers went there.
    They are carrying on a Southern legacy of military tradition that
    stretches back long before the War Between the States.  They
    fervently believe in protecting the sanctity of the Citadel's 
    traditions, and any attempt to dismantle those traditions deeply 
    offends them.
    
    Perhaps Shannon Faulkner was the little girl in the library checking
    out the works of Betty Friedan, or Gloria Steinem, or Bella Abzug.
    For her, the Citadel was merely a prominent place where she could
    strike a blow for all women.  The traditions that the other cadets
    cherish so much are to Shannon Faulkner merely the relics of an
    unjust and patriarchic system that must be swept away.  Far be it
    from me to suggest she is wrong in this, but it should help explain
    the rallies and celebrations that took place when Shannon resigned.
    She insulted them before they ever even heard of Shannon Faulkner.
    
    I could go on for thousands more lines, but it all comes down to
    something that it is very simple and substantial.
     
    Shannon Faulkner made a decision in her high-school guidance
    counselor's office that eventually resulted in her becoming a
    Citadel cadet, even if only briefly.  The other cadets were born
    to it.  This is why they resented her presence, and why they cheered
    when she left.
    
    
    Rob
    
    
                                                                      

    
    well, there are wymmin at the Point making the grade 
    aren't there, in terms of taking the heat and not
    flagging down during the hell week festivities?

    
    There certainly are, and I've known women there who I thought would
    make excellent officers in non-combat roles (not to bring up that
    rathole.)
    
    The change to include women cadets was forced on West Point by
    the government (as it was at Norwich University, which I also 
    attended for a year) after much resistance.  It has irrevocably
    changed the nature of the institution, and diminished the power
    of tradition there.  There is still considerable tension between
    the male and female cadets at West Point (and at Norwich,) and
    I'm sure these problems will always be present.
    
    Certainly, there are women who can physically "make the grade" (at
    lesser standards than males are expected to attain, naturally,) and
    there are definitely many women who are fantastic officers and
    born leaders.  That does not mean that there should not be places
    in the world where tradition still rules and where men can go to
    learn the art of war from other men.  There is still a need for
    these places.
    
    When the courts make the decision who can go to these schools; when
    we encourage the government to step in and set quotas (and there are
    quotas at West Point, believe me); we are tampering with a wall
    of security that was built, in some part, by men who went to these
    schools.  Don't muck around with what works.  If you choose to do so,
    you do so at your peril.
    
    
    Rob
    

    
    Sorry Rob, but YOU appear to have missed the point in your rush to
    label misogyny and sexism as "tradition".
    
    Not a hatefest?  Most of the cadets didn't even KNOW Shannon Faulkner,
    yet they cheered and celebrated when she left.  Did they cheer and
    celebrate over the other two dozen who dropped out?  Doubtful.
    
    >Just for the political point.  There it is, right there.
    >----------------------------
    
    Yes, the political point of STAYING.  Not the political point of being
    admitted.
    
    >Shannon Faulkner never gave a damn about the Citadel and its history
    
    Pure conjecture on your part.  Who wastes 2.5 years of their life to
    make a politcal point?  How many teenagers do you know that would do
    that?  
    
    >and traditions.  For Shannon, this was all done just for the 
    >political point, so Shannon could try to become a feminist heroine
    >by forcing "equality" on those backward redneck good ol' boys.  It 
    
    And you know this to be a fact because...?
           
    >And it is Shannon Faulkner's utter lack of
    >respect for the Citadel and for tradition that has resulted in her
    >being hated by the cadets, and their celebration at her untimely
    >departure.
    
    Yes, how DARE a woman expect to be treated equally at a
    taxpayer-supported institution?  How dare she expect to be given a fair
    shake?  That would go against tradition!
    
    >Suffice it to say that the Citadel is much more important, and even
    >revered and holy, in the minds of the young men who become cadets than
    >most of you realize.  
    
    And it's not possible that she felt the same way?
    
    >If you go to a civilian school, you pretty much
    >just want to go to a good school.  Whether it's UMASS-Boston or 
    >UMASS-Amherst or UMASS-Lowell is of fairly little consequence.  
    
    Bogus assumption.  It's not just those who go to a military-type school
    that have been brought up with the desire to go to a certain
    university.  And if you were going to reference GOOD schools, why did
    you pick those three 8^)?
    
    >Most of the cadets at the Citadel have a similar history.  Their
    >brothers went there.  Their fathers and grandfathers went there.
    
    Unfortunately, their sisters and mothers and aunts and grandmothers
    weren't allowed to attend.
    
    >They are carrying on a Southern legacy of military tradition that
    >stretches back long before the War Between the States.  They
    >fervently believe in protecting the sanctity of the Citadel's 
    >traditions, and any attempt to dismantle those traditions deeply 
    >offends them.
    
    Oh well, we wouldn't want to damage their little psyches, now would we?
    
    >Perhaps Shannon Faulkner was the little girl in the library checking
    >out the works of Betty Friedan, or Gloria Steinem, or Bella Abzug.
    >For her, the Citadel was merely a prominent place where she could
    >strike a blow for all women.  
    
    Conjecture.  
    
    
    >The traditions that the other cadets
    >cherish so much are to Shannon Faulkner merely the relics of an
    >unjust and patriarchic system that must be swept away.  
    
    Such as sexism?  In what year did The Citadel stop practicing racism
    and allow non-whites to attend?
    
    >Far be it
    >from me to suggest she is wrong in this, but it should help explain
    >the rallies and celebrations that took place when Shannon resigned.
    >She insulted them before they ever even heard of Shannon Faulkner.
    
    By wanting equal access?  By expecting an institution that accepted her
    to allow her to attend?
     
    >Shannon Faulkner made a decision in her high-school guidance
    >counselor's office that eventually resulted in her becoming a
    >Citadel cadet, even if only briefly.  The other cadets were born
    >to it.  
    
    And you know this to be fact because...?
    
    >This is why they resented her presence, and why they cheered
    >when she left.
    
    All right, you've made enough suppositions in your note, let me make
    one of my own.  They resented her because they don't consider women to
    be equal to men.  They expect women to be discriminated against, to be
    treated badly, to be kept down.  They expect it, and they revel in it. 
    It wouldn't matter to any of them if she was physically and mentally
    superior to the best of them - they didn't want her there because
    they've been socialized to think of women as inferiors.
    
    And all in the name of 'tradition'.

   <<< Note 502.416 by AIMHI::MARTIN "actually Rob Cashmon, NHPM::CASHMON" >>>

Rob,	Do you believe that it is a "good" thing that the future officers
	of our Armed Forces learn that they do not have to obey the civilian
	government? Or its laws?

	Shannon Faulkner's motives are her own. But the principles brought
	out by her fight are not.

	BTW, I heard a report this morning (by Cokie Roberts, so I take it
	with a large grain of salt) that most graduates of the Citadel do not
	pursue military carreers.

	I would suppose that graduates receive Reserve Commissions as 2nd
	Lieutenants. You can make a career in the military with a Reserve
	Commision, but you can not expect to go much beyond the rank of
	Major. Higher ranks and virtually all flag ranks are held by those
	with Regular Commissions (those who graduated from one of the service
	acadamies).

Jim

>	I would suppose that graduates receive Reserve Commissions as 2nd
>	Lieutenants.

Not necessarily.  They can also receive regular commissions.

>       You can make a career in the military with a Reserve
>	Commision, but you can not expect to go much beyond the rank of
>	Major. Higher ranks and virtually all flag ranks are held by those
>	with Regular Commissions (those who graduated from one of the service
>	acadamies).

Regular Commissions are not reserved to those who graduate from one of
the service acadEmies.

/john

    
    Rob, you seem to think that there aren't wymmin who could 
    march with, PT with, and be just as tough and as bbad-assed 
    as any of the male cadets.
    
    Let me assure you that there are females out there fully able
    to ace the heat, the field problems, and the classroom, as well
    as clean clocks at the local.
    
    the fact that Shannon wasn't one of them doesn't mean squat. 
    

    re. 502.419, Mz_Deb,

    I did make some assumptions in my note.  I don't know Shannon
    Faulkner, nor are my si'kick powers well-honed enough that I can
    peer into her soul and uncover her dreams and desires.  I can only
    judge Shannon by her own actions and words.

    As a very interested observer to this whole mess, I have never
    once heard Shannon Faulkner say that it was her lifelong dream to
    attend the Citadel, nor even that she was interested in a military
    education or a military career.  What I have heard her say, in 
    response to the direct question "Why do you want to go to the
    Citadel?" put to her by a sympathetic member of the news media, is
    the following:  "I think that women should have the right to go  
    wherever they want to go."  Shannon's team of lawyers have been 
    very effective in getting her media coverage, I have read and
    heard countless statements by her in the past two years, and I 
    have never seen her say anything to indicate that she has even a
    passing interest in what the Citadel is all about.

    Even today, as she relaxed with an interviewer at her home,
    Shannon Faulkner said that she was satisfied that she had
    accomplished what she set out to do; that her lawyers had proven
    that the law was on her side.  She is now thinking of becoming
    an education major at a nearby school.

    In a way, this reminds me of the Norma McCorvey/Jane Roe situation
    as it relates to the abortion debate.  We can argue about the
    principle, but Shannon Faulkner was not the best candidate to 
    base a case around.  Her reasons for wishing to attend the Citadel
    are, IMVHO, insufficient given the extent of the problems she has
    caused for the school (or, depending upon your point of view, the
    extent of the problems they have caused for themselves by following
    an exclusionary policy.)

    >Not a hatefest?  Most of the cadets didn't even KNOW Shannon Faulkner,
    >yet they cheered and celebrated when she left.  Did they cheer and
    >celebrate over the other two dozen who dropped out?  Doubtful.
    
    Most of the cadets have been following this, I'm sure, as least as
    closely as I have, and they have no doubt formed their own opinions
    of Shannon Faulkner based on her actions and words.  Their opinion,
    clearly, is that she was lacking in what it takes to become a
    Citadel cadet.  You may think that what she was lacking was 
    merely a penis (merely?!), but there is much more to it than 
    that simple answer.

    Although this will seem cruel, I can assure you that there were 
    those who cheered as the 24 male cadets dropped out, and who 
    will continue to cheer as more drop out over the next few months.
    Hell week is not the end of the hazing, by any means.  Due to
    a particular mindset (that some may refer to as brainwashing,)
    peer pressure and the wrath of the cadre will combine to force 
    out those that Citadel cadets see as unworthy.  Those who can
    not or will not "make the grade" will get little sympathy, even 
    from their own classmates.  Life's tough during your knob year,
    and shared misery forges incredible bonds.  Those who will not
    share the misery don't get any compassion from those that will.
    Again, this is a different world.


    >Pure conjecture on your part.  Who wastes 2.5 years of their life to
    >make a politcal point?  How many teenagers do you know that would do
    >that?  
    
    Actually, I think teenagers would be more likely to do something
    like this, since they have the enthusiasm (and gullibility) that
    encourages such activism.  That point aside, Shannon Faulkner is
    clearly not a typical teenager.  She is an exceptional young
    woman of unusual strength and determination, and she had to be to
    get through the media circus of the past two years.

    This does not mean she would make a good cadet or a good soldier,
    any more than I would have made a good soldier.  There are a 
    particular set of skills and a certain mindset that are needed
    for success in the military, and they are quite different from 
    qualities that may be beneficial in the outside world.  Since
    Shannon bowed out after a week, we'll never know, will we?

    >Such as sexism?  In what year did The Citadel stop practicing racism
    >and allow non-whites to attend?
    
    urghhhh...well, I was hoping not to see that question, since it
    does make my arguments about tradition a lot more difficult.  It
    is a perfectly valid point, though, so I'll try to bite the bullet
    and give a bit of an answer.

    Racism was certainly part of the Citadel's past, and the first
    non-white would not have attended until sometime in the early 
    seventies.  (If you're interested in this, try reading Pat Conroy's
    "The Lords of Discipline," which is a fictional account of the
    introduction of the first black cadet into the Citadel, and which
    gives a pretty accurate reading of the feelings of the cadets at
    the time.  Don't bother with the movie.)  However, in the military
    sense, there is more of a justification for discrimination based on
    sex than based on race.  (Pardon me while I dig this BIG hole for
    myself...)

    No matter what colour a man's skin is, it's just skin.  It's not
    going to have any impact on his abilities as a soldier.  We can 
    all agree, however, that men and women have different physical
    characteristics (thank God!) and different levels of physical 
    ability.  Also, despite the best of intentions, there is a
    different social dynamic between single-sex and multiple-sex
    (ooh err!) environments.  This is not a good or bad thing, but
    it would completely change the character of an all-male school.
    And perhaps I had better stop with that before I really get
    myself in trouble...;-)


    >By wanting equal access?  By expecting an institution that accepted her
    >to allow her to attend?
    
    This is a part of the crux of the matter for me.  The Citadel
    accepted her only under the assumption that Shannon was a male.
    Dick Binder can argue that she did not lie when she removed all
    allusions to her sex from her transcript, references, and
    recommendations, but to me it is dishonest because she knew
    full well that this was an all-male school.  There was a clear
    intent to deceive that is dishonorable in one who is applying
    to a school whose foundation is based on honor, and a formal
    honor code and system.

    Possibly bogus example:  There are several womens' fitness centers
    in the Central Mass/Boston area.  If I dress up in drag (I can't
    believe I just said that,) go to one of these places, and buy
    a membership, the salesperson may not notice that I failed to
    check off the box on the form where it asks for the sex of the
    applicant.  When I hit the locker room and it becomes apparent
    that I am not a woman, are they going to say "Hey, you're a
    man!  Oh well, enjoy your membership!"  Of course not.  There
    was still an intent to deceive, and although the legality of
    it may be in question, the precepts of honor and honorable
    conduct would dictate that I should be out on the street in a
    New York minute.


    >All right, you've made enough suppositions in your note, let me make
    >one of my own.  They resented her because they don't consider women to
    >be equal to men.  They expect women to be discriminated against, to be
    >treated badly, to be kept down.  They expect it, and they revel in it. 
    >It wouldn't matter to any of them if she was physically and mentally
    >superior to the best of them - they didn't want her there because
    >they've been socialized to think of women as inferiors.

    If you believe that about these men, you must believe it about
    all men in our society.  These men are not monsters, they come 
    from all socioeconomic levels and all walks of life.  They share
    a common love, an intensity of fervent belief in the traditions
    of an institution, but not a sinister hatred for all womankind.
    If you've ever met any of them, you'll realize they are all just
    normal guys.

    I would agree with you that these attitudes do afflict all men to
    one degree or another; sexism is a very real problem in the world.
    But one can do the wrong thing for all the right reasons.  I would
    be very hesitant about tampering with an institution that has done
    its job and accomplished its mission with exceptional success for
    close to a century and a half.  I have seen what this tampering has
    done to other environments, and the changes have not all been for
    the best.

    
    >>And all in the name of 'tradition'.

    Yes.  It is a brotherhood, and should remain thus.


Rob

    
    re 502.420, Jim,
    
    I do think that it is critical that those who will be serving our
    country learn that they must obey civilian authority and the laws
    it creates.  I only wish that that authority and those laws would
    reflect the truth of the situation as I see it.
    
    But hey!  Maybe I'm wrong and they're right.  We shall see how the
    situation resolves itself.  More women will be applying to the
    Citadel, and they should have a much easier legal path to travel.
    Shannon was the first, but she won't be the last.
    
    Shannon Faulkner has driven a wedge into the Citadel's armor, and
    the situation is, for better or worse, different now than it was
    before.
    
    Here's to the future.
    
    
    
    Rob
    
    BTW, Citadel grads who have not accepted a ROTC scholarship have no
    commitment to the military, and may enter the world of business or
    do whatever they wish.  Most grads do enter the military, although
    not all of them make a career out of it.
    

    
    re.422, RAH,
    
    If I've given you that impression, it is incorrect.  I am well aware
    that there are women who can meet the standards.  There are plenty
    of women out there who could run me into the ground.  Hell, there are
    even women in the world who can bench press more than me.  Tamara
    Rainwater-Grimwood recently benched 402 at a bodyweight of 180, which
    is slightly more than I have ever done at 240-250.  The difference,
    of course, is that Tamara is the world record-holder and the first
    woman to bench 400 (and is using plenty of exogenous testosterone, to
    be sure,) while I am merely Joe Schmoe from Nashua.
    
    I recall one woman, who ended up being a company commander her senior
    year at West Point, who I would rather have beside me in a bar fight
    or combat ops than almost any man I've ever met.  Talk about tough
    as nails...
    
    There are both men and women who will make good or bad soldiers, or
    even cadets.  But there are already places where one can go for a
    coed military school experience.  The Citadel and VMI are the last
    refuge of the single-sex military college experience.  I would like
    to see them keep their unique character, even if it means losing
    government funds.
    
    
    Rob
               

    
    
    I agree that the reaction by the cadets were shameful.  They do need to
    grow up.  
    
    
    I hope that Shannon has learned from this experience.  The lesson that
    I see is that one should choose ones battles carefully.  Does anyone
    know how this all started?  How she got the idea to apply to the
    Citadel?  
    
    
    I wish her well in whatever she decides to do with her life.  I feel
    that she bit off more than she could chew without understanding the
    ramifications of her actions.  
    
    
    Mike

    
    How's the expression go?  "Be careful what you ask for, 
    or you will surely get it."  Something like that.  ;^)
    

             <<< Note 502.421 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >>>

>Not necessarily.  They can also receive regular commissions.

	Under what conditions does a Citadel graduate receive a Regular
	Commission upon graduation?

>Regular Commissions are not reserved to those who graduate from one of
>the service acadEmies.

	It is possible to have your status changed during the course of your
	career, but I was under the impression that only the service acadamies
	granted regular commisions upon graduation.

Jim

     Shannon's out of court performance was shameful. It looks like she was
    just making a statement and completely unprepared to undergo that which
    she had claimed to want so bad. Unfortunately, I don't see her
    performance as advancing the cause of equality since she so clearly
    couldn't cut the mustard; it gives the dinosaurs all the "I told you
    so" ammunition they can use. I just feel that she pulled a Peter
    McNeely; bailing out at the first sign things weren't going to be light
    and breezy. Can she really say she gave it her best shot? I don't think
    so- but if she honestly can then she didn't have much in the first
    place. It's pretty difficult to tell whether she was simply out to get
    her 15 minutes by forcing the Citadel to accept a female cadet, or if
    she's just a quitter. Either way, she makes a lousy first female cadet,
    IMO. I'm sure there are thousands of women who would have done a better
    job.
    
     There is, of course, another side to this. And that is that we will
    not have achieved equality until females are allowed to try and fail
    just like males. Having the freedom to fail is part and parcel of
    equality; insisting that females succeed just because they are females
    when men are allowed to fail and quietly slink away is tantamount to
    holding females to higher standards. It's just disappointing that the
    very first had to fail. :-/

    Heard on the radio this morning that Shannon also took her High School
    to court to allow her to try out for the football team.  When she was
    finally allowed to try out she lasted one practice.  I cannot verify
    the facts as reported, just thought I'd pass it along.
    
    Dan

    
    Hmmmmm....
    
    Wonder how long it will take NOW to gather up and pay the obligatory
    picketers???

    Is it equalitywhen women are held to lower standards than men?
    
    Is it fair because women are physcially inferior?
    
    Or are they physically equal, and should they be held to the same
    physical standards?
    
    (Light fuse. Get away.)

    There should be one set of physical standards for anything that
    requires a physical test, assuming that the physical test is a valid
    requirement.
    
    Bob

    
      Um, if I remember correctly, Colin Powell (retired chairman, Joint
     Chiefs of Staff during the Gulf War), did not attend any service
     academy or military school.  He was in ROTC, and attended Georgetown,
     and was sent to business school by the army to get an MBA.  Later he
     was a line commander in Viet Nam, and received a regular army
     commission.  During the Reagan years, he became a general because
     of his much-valued advice to Cap Weiberger, and his considerable
     combat record.  As to commissions, Congress can grant them to
     anybody they like.  In the Civil War, they often went to politicians,
     who were handed whole armies they had no idea how to lead.  The
     theory, spectacularly disproved, was that extreme hatred of the
     Confederacy would make up for minor deficencies in matters like how
     to operate weapons or organize troops.
    
      bb

    
>         There should be one set of physical standards for anything that
>    requires a physical test, assuming that the physical test is a valid
>    requirement.


    As simple as that is written it is ambiguous.  Is the desire to ensure
    a level of fitness or a particular skill level.

    For example,  if a firefighter needs to be able to carry 200 lbs
    because that is the size person they should be able to carry alone then
    the standard should, IMO, be the same for men and women.  The standard
    has a tangible value.

    However if the test is to test general physical fitness, which is what
    I expect the case is at the Citadel (spoken by an ex-ROTC guy), I think
    different standards are the fairest.  The goal is to expect the same
    level of fitness from each of the cadets.  There is 100 years of
    evidence that shows A LOT more men can run a 16-min 2 mile run than can
    women.  Using the same absolute standard skews the results
    tremendously.  However, using differing times, both of which
    correspond to x% of their gender performance levels, would IMO be
    fairest.  

    I would guess the 16-min and 19-min requirements represent goals 
    represent the same level of fitness as opposed to the same absolute
    level.

    Take care,
    Greg

                                                                     

    re: .435
    
    I tend to agree with you.  Since I don't know the reasoning behind the
    standards in this case, I can't make a valid judgement.
    
    Bob

     <<< Note 502.436 by ROWLET::AINSLEY "Less than 150kts is TOO slow!" >>>

>    I tend to agree with you.  Since I don't know the reasoning behind the
>    standards in this case, I can't make a valid judgement.
 
	Heard a report this morning that the standards that were set for
	Faulkner were those that are in effect at the military service
	acadamies.

Jim

    
    re 502.434, bb,
    
    Small nit.  If I am not mistaken, Colin Powell attended City College
    of New York, where he received a commission through the ROTC program.
    He may have received his MBA at Georgetown.
    
    Sigh...one would think I would know his background better by now, 
    since the man has been on the cover of virtually every news 
    magazine in the country recently ("Colin Powell -- will he run?")
    
    
    
    Rob
    

(c) 1995 Copyright The News and Observer Publishing Co.
(c) 1995 Associated Press

CHARLESTON, S.C. (Aug 22, 1995 - 11:18 EDT) -- Another
woman has been found who wants to become a cadet at The
Citadel now that Shannon Faulkner has dropped out, one of the
lawyers in the case said Tuesday.

"It's hard to find somebody who is willing to put themselves in
the middle of the hurricane," attorney Suzanne Coe said. "But
there is a woman who will step in and take off in the same
shoes that Shannon stepped out of."

Coe said she would file federal court papers on Wednesday
seeking to add the woman to the case.

The lawyer would not identify the woman until the papers are
filed, except to say she is from South Carolina and attends
college. Like Faulkner, she would be a junior if she entered the
corps next year but would take the freshman year of military
training.

Faulkner, the first woman cadet in the 152-year history of the
state military college, fought for 2 1/2 years to join the corps,
then withdrew last week after less than a week on campus. The
20-year-old woman said the stress of the court battle and her
isolation as the only woman in the corps were taking too great a
toll on her health.

If the new woman is permitted to enter the case, Coe said she
expects the court ruling that made Faulkner part of the cadet
corps also would apply to the new woman. In that case, she
would become a cadet in the fall of 1996.

But Citadel spokesman Terry Leedom said, "The Faulkner case
applies only to Faulkner and it's not a class-action suit."

Two women have applied to join the corps, but the applications
have not been processed, Leedom said. The school has
received inquiries from about 200 other women, he said.

Lawyers will ask U.S. District Judge C. Weston Houck on
Wednesday to make Faulkner's case a class action
representing all women who want to become Citadel cadets,
Coe said.

Even if the college doesn't process the new woman's
application, Coe said the judge could determine whether she
meets Citadel admission requirements.

"There is no doubt that the woman who says she will intervene
meets all those requirements," she said.

Several weeks ago, attorneys for Faulkner told the judge they
had found a second woman who wanted to become a cadet.
Then a few days later, they said the unidentified woman
decided against seeking admission because of family concerns.

"Who really wants to go and become the center of
controversy?" Coe said. But the new women is committed to
joining the corps and will spearhead the case, she said.

"What Shannon did was pave the way and now we need people
to continue carrying the torch," Coe said.



    
    
    So it's the lawyers seeking these people out to make a name for
    themselves?

OK the barrier is broken. now let them apply like any other student/applicant
and if accepted start as freshpersons like everyone else.
The argument was Shannon was delayed two years so should start as a junior 
makes some sense but others should go thru the whole process.

Amos

Presumably the lawyer (see, I've already forgotten her name) strongly believes
that women should be allowed to be cadets in the Citadel.  She's probably
doing it more out of principle than for the publicity.

>>Presumably the lawyer (see, I've already forgotten her name) 

 i think it was either Medico, Medina, or Medrick.

    Coupled with the fact that the Citadel is saying the the Faulkner case
    only applied to Shannon Faulkner and that it was not a class action
    case (thus requiring each new potential female candidate to fire up her
    own lawsuit to gain entrance...)

> i think it was either Medico, Medina, or Medrick.

Wise guy.

    
    And so the whole circus begins again.
    
    At least the new applicant, based on her ROTC performance and the
    fact that she is willing to transfer in after having spent two
    years someplace else, seems to be more serious about the military
    side of things than Shannon Faulkner.
    
    
    Rob
    

    
      For those who don't know, the game in the USA today is the "prepared"
     case.  This is not just used by the left, either.  For example in
     reverse discrimination, although I think the genre was invented on
     the left.  The whole litigious matter is CHOREOGRAPHED ahead of time,
     the people are selected and instructed in what to do to test the law,
     the lawyers are paid by well-heeled lobbies, and spies from the
     opposing camp meanwhile prepare to sabotage the staged litigants in
     court.  There are WAY too many lawyers with time on their hands and
     dollar signs in their eyes in the USA.  It is now a blood sport.
    
      bb

    <== agreed.

    .447
    
    So when is someone going to do it with the second amendment?

    > Shannon's out of court performance was shameful. It looks like she was
    > just making a statement and completely unprepared to undergo that which
    > she had claimed to want so bad.
    
    I am disappointed that she pulled out.  But I don't feel like
    second-guessing her on matters of her health.  I seem to remember you,
    Mark, complaining mightily about a court action you were involved in
    sometime in the recent past- certainly you didn't bear the strain of it
    for two years.  I can easily see how a 20-yr old woman would finally
    collapse under the strain- not able to hold down any food for three
    days after finally winning the court case and entering the program-
    having her family harassed at home for two years (stuff thrown at their
    house in the middle of the night, old friends breaking off all contact-
    you get the picture.)  As I say, I'm disappointed- but I can understand
    her actions.  It isn't in me to condemn her for inadequate preparation,
    or to thereby judge that she must not have wanted it "enough".  Two+
    years of stress caught up with her; not too difficult to figure out.
    
    DougO

    -1 no sale DougO. she had the stamina and character to take up the
       good fight and win. for that she gets all of my praise and
       admiration.
    
       not showing up prepared was either an act of irresponsibility or
       was simply not on the agenda (planned). i tend to think the latter.
    
       my admiration for her would be bolstered greatly if she indeed came
       out and stated that breaking down the barrier was the agenda.

    
    
    Truth is, she was recruited by the ACLU to make a statement.  They used
    her and she was tired of being used.  The ACLU lyeers changed her
    transcripts removing all references to gender and adding more
    activities than Shannon actually participated.  

    When women were first invited to attend West Point, the candidates were
    motivated to do so and went in as prepared somewhat for the rigors in
    store for them.  This is not the case here.  This leads to questioning
    motives as is the case here.  
    
    Brian
    

    >I am disappointed that she pulled out.  But I don't feel like
    >second-guessing her on matters of her health.
    
     I don't think she was prepared to actually go through with it; she was
    ready to talk the talk and did a great job in lobbying the court. But
    when it came right down to it, I don't think she was prepared to
    undergo Citadel training. I admire her courage in breaking down the
    barrier, but I think she was woefully unprepared for what being in the
    Citadel meant. That's all.

            <<< Note 502.452 by GRANPA::MWANNEMACHER "NRA member" >>>

You have a source for this truth?

    reading something in the paper by Clarence Page yesterday, Shannon
    Faulkner fared no worse than some of the first black men who went to
    West oint.  Out of the first 12, (all of whom were pretty-well
    isolated, harrassed, beaten and wenr at different times over several
    decades) only 3 managed to graduate.
    
    meg

    
    Tom,
    
    It was in an article I read the other day.  In the Times.
    

    >reading something in the paper by Clarence Page yesterday, Shannon
    >Faulkner fared no worse than some of the first black men who went to
    >West oint.  Out of the first 12, (all of whom were pretty-well
    >isolated, harrassed, beaten and wenr at different times over several
    >decades) only 3 managed to graduate.
    
     So how many dropped out on day 1? (I don't consider laying in the
    infirmary to count as time in the academy.)
    
     Anybody see the guy (faculty) who was interviewed regarding the Citadel
    students' treatment of Faulkner? Sounded like the thrust of his message
    was "we're lunkheads, and proud of it. I'm not going to make any
    excuses for the way we behaved, nor should I." I thought the
    celebrations of exultation when it was announced that that big, bad
    girl was leaving reflected most negatively on all the participants; it
    made them look impotent and childish, IMO, like fighting a girl being
    allowed to be in their school was the most positive contribution to
    society they were capable of making.

    
    > Faulkner fared no worse than some of the first black men who went to
    > West Point.  Out of the first 12, (all of whom were pretty-well
    > isolated, harassed, beaten and wenr at different times over several
    > decades) only 3 managed to graduate.

    To compare what Shannon Faulkner went through with what the first blacks
    in West Point went through belittles the efforts and achievements of
    the blacks IMNHO.  Shannon Falkner was unprepared, and not willing to
    go through the effort required to compete at the Citadel.  In my
    younger days I went from 165-170 lbs to 145 lbs in a matter of two
    weeks.  It was a result of living with the military, and just trying to
    keep up with there regular (easy) schedule.  Shannon could have lost
    the weight and reached the level of health necessary to compete within
    the time allotted to her.  She CHOSE not to.

    The citadel is beginning to sound like an older, but not necessarily
    more grown up, version of Spanky and his gang.

    i agree 100% with Dan (now pick yourself up)... to make a comparison
    between SF and blacks at West Point is grossly ridiculous. sheesh,
    where do these idiots come up with this stuff.
    
    blacks were often beaten out of the academy...
    
    

    >It was a result of living with the military, and just trying to
    >keep up with there regular (easy) schedule.
    
    And of course we know that they do more before 9am then most people do
    all day. That seems like a real strong point. Would make me want to
    join.   :-)
    
    
    :)

    Saw an interview with Shannon on teevee (not mine) the other
    night...she said she would recommend the Citadel as a place to send
    either sons or daughters of friends.

    This morning's Atlanta Constitution reported that Shannon Faulkner has
    inked a movie deal.

    
    
    Imagine that.......

    Yawn.

    
    Who'd a thunk it????
    

    	It's gonna take some mighty literary license to make a movie
    	about this episode interesting, exciting, marketable.
    
    	Who wants to see a movie about a loser?  Maybe the final
    	victory at the end of the movie will be that the main
    	character gets rich from a movie deal.  Can't wait for
    	the sequel...  8^P

    
    In the movie version she will endure years of abuse and harrassment
    prior to graduation.
    

    Obviously Clarence Page did not feel it innapproriate to compare
    Faulkner and the original blacks at WP.  Given his ethnic background, I
    think if it were innappropriate to him, he wouldn't have used it.
    
    The Citidel's behavior reminds me of a GOB meeting.
    
    meg

    Wonderful...another victim movie.
    
    

    >	Who wants to see a movie about a loser?  
    
     Who cares? She'll have her payday.

>Who wants to see a movie about a loser?

I'd much rather see a movie about OJ, or David Koresh, or
Jim Jones, or John Wayne Gacy, or Ted Bundy, or Son of Sam,
or Leona Helmsley any day. 

    Yeah, but you're just funny that way.

    
    Just cuz she dropped out doesn't make her a loser.  TYVM

    Hmmmm, if the movie is about her "stay" at the Citadel, should be
    one, very short movie :-}
    
    A lot of women are PO'd at Shannon.  Woman wrote in to Atlanta
    editorial section earlier this week.  She is an executive with
    local firm, but also a member of a reserve unit.  She was activated
    for Desert Storm and served there.  She said she worked out for
    months before enlisting, knowing that the P.T. would be fierce
    combined with our summer weather.  She also questioned Shannon's
    desire to really attend the Citadel versus the publicity garnered
    to gain admittance.  This woman said she knew Faulkner wouldn't
    make it when she saw film clips of Faulkner's arrival at The
    Citadel, woefully out of shape.
    
     

    That is exactly what I was saying.
    
    Faulkner was trying to make a name for herself...that's all!  She was
    prostituting the Citadel in order to fulfill her own agenda.  
    
    - Jack

And yet in that televised interview, Faulkner said
she had run 2-3 miles each a.m and then another 
3-5 miles in the p.m. every day in preparation.
She also said that she worked out on the Nautilus
machines every other day.   Go figure.

    Yeah, she did say that she had run with her father on a daily basis. It
    sure didn't look it, relative to the way she looked before all of her
    training...

Definitely not a runner's physique.

    
    No doubt, Mark.  Makes one wonder how much food she was consuming if
    she was doing all this exercise.  
    
    
    
    I don't think it was any kind of conspiracy on her part for fame and
    fortune.  Remember, she was only 17 at the time.  I think she got the
    idea and decided to go for it as a curiosity thing then the lawyers got
    ahold of it and turned it into what it had become.  I don't think she
    was expecting it to get that far and be as stressful.
    
    Mike

>She was
>    prostituting the Citadel in order to fulfill her own agenda.

Why don't you go fulfill your own agenda, Jack?  And don't hurt
yourself while you're doing it.

I'm usually able to avoid your nonsensical baiting...why don't
you just give it a freakin' rest.  

  

    I for one can't wait to see this woman's face on the big silver screen.
    I'm simply giddy with anticipation.

    
    ...or just plain giddy.   ;^)
    

    It's a fair cop.

    >> Faulkner was trying to make a name for herself...that's all!  She
    >>was prostituting the Citadel in order to fulfill her own agenda.
    
    
    do you know this for a FACT??  (lemme know if you need help looking it
    up)  or are you just assuming this to be the real story?
    
    
    

    .486
    
    Faulkner did use the words "to make a political point" in her press
    release when she left the Citadel. She did not use the words
    "tradition" or "education."

    
    We've already gone through this political point thing, and there is
    disagreement on the meaning.  Unless she comes right out and says "I
    only wanted to go to The Citadel to make a political point", my
    interpretation is as valid as yours.
    
    

    Has anybody noticed that Raq has been standing up to me lately???

>do you know this for a FACT??

Jack never dabbles in fact.  Fact might muck
up Jack's agenda.  From the get-go Jack's 
mouthed off and assumed the worst about Faulkner's
motivations.  Jack's assumptions are fact to Jack.

    
    Well, it IS Friday, you know.
    

    Jack doesn't b'leeve in discriminating against the other days of the
    week.

ZZ    Jack never dabbles in fact.  Fact might muck
ZZ    up Jack's agenda.  From the get-go Jack's 
ZZ    mouthed off and assumed the worst about Faulkner's
ZZ    motivations.  Jack's assumptions are fact to Jack.
  
    Yes, the typical tyrade from the looney left.  Of course you never
    really read the basenote carefully...where I stated that single
    gendered schools are a great tradition and I have contempt for both men
    and women who attempt to break these working traditions.  No...you
    failed to read this because you read what you wanted to read.  Then
    when you couldn't come up with a substantial counterpoint, you chose to
    implement the lefty method which is finger pointing and insults. 
    Apparently you need to do this because you can't offer anything
    substantive to the conversation.  Always with the poor lil old me
    attitude.
    
    In fact, about half way through these replies I mentioned that in way,
    I hope Shannon does succeed because I don't want to see her fail since
    she is at the Citadel anyway.  I just hoped that she was there because
    she WANTED to be a military officer in the future.  She wanted it so
    bad she would bust her hump to get it.  
    
    Being a martyr has it's price.  Shannon Faulkner didn't make it because
    Shannon Faulkner didn't want it!  
    
    -Jack

    Going to the Citadel and graduating does not guarantee one a commission
    in the military.  It is not a military school as West Point, Annapolis,
    Air Force or Coast Guard academies.  It is a private institution that
    holds military traditions and receives public funds.  

>Yes, the typical tyrade from the looney left.

Another stupid assumption of yours.

>Then
>    when you couldn't come up with a substantial counterpoint, you chose to
>    implement the lefty method which is finger pointing and insults.

Jack, no one political party holds the patent on this tired method.
Finger pointing and insults?  You've got to be kidding.  How about the 
personal insults you've hurled at Faulkner in this string?  Oh. But
that's safe to do, right?  She ain't here.

>Always with the poor lil old me
>    attitude.

Give me one example of this from my writing Jack.  Just one.  
You're such a blowhard.

    She likes you, Jack, she really does. ;-)

    The MUFF note?!?!
    
    Hmmmmm.

 ZZ   Another stupid assumption of yours.
    
    Yes, it is an assumption...but it is based on your apparent belief that
    Shannon Faulkner is a victim.  
    
    This has little to do with women's rights.  There are quite a few women
    who believe as I do...that Shannon Faulkner has stepped over the line
    of breaking traditions that have been effective throughout history.  
    I find this to be dishonorable on her part.  There are PLENTY of State
    Funded women schools in this country...and I hold men to the same
    convictions.  Keep your hormones and your non so good looking self out
    of women's colleges.  YOU DON'T BELONG THERE.  Respect the traditions
    that are successful and stay away.  
    
    So...you think I'm picking on Shannon Faulkner.  Well, I wish Shannon
    the best wherever she ends up.  Quite frankly, she wasn't welcomed at
    the Citadel and although I believe she should succeed if she made the
    standard, I don't have to approve of her actions.  That's why I was
    saying I hope they make her life hell because if she reeeeaaaalllly
    wants to be a Susan B. Anthony, then she has to earn it!
    
    -Jack
    

    I really hope she is successful

    Vertically Challenged Snarf

By the way Mark, I've been meaning to axe you...
remember you were going to mail me examples of
women using the line, "Well, I don't care, it's
how I feel" to win arguments with men in various
notesfiles?  Remember that discussion back in
womannotes?

Well, I haven't received any examples from you
yet...what happened?

    Womannotes...that explains it.
    
    Womannotes is a mecca of socialism and social engineering.  Speak
    correctly lest you offend the masses.  
    
    

Is Christian-Perspective a Mecca of Christianity?

>but it is based on your apparent belief that
    Shannon Faulkner is a victim.

Do you just like, make things up as you go along?
I never implied or stated that I thought SF was a victim.

>Shannon Faulkner has stepped over the line
    of breaking traditions

Could you elaborate on these traditions?  Do they
include hazings and circle jerks?

>Is Christian-Perspective a Mecca of Christianity?

No, it's a mecca of Perspectives, a few of them Christian.

    You mean just like xiannotes?  when are you all going to quit trying to
    figure out who the true xians are, anyuway?
    
    

>>  when are you all going to quit trying to
>>  figure out who the true xians are, anyuway?

    oh but Meg, that would take all the fun out of it. ;>
    
    
    

    To be honest, some of what I am writing is in response to your remarks 
    about circle jerks and your inferences to my acting in such a manner. 
    
    It was this type of rapport that you established.
    
    -Jack

    re. 478
    
    There is no way in hell that Shannon was running 2-3 miles in the AM
    and 3-5 miles in the PM.  That is anywhere from 5-8 miles a day.  As a
    runner, I can assure you that it takes time to work up to 8 miles.  By
    the time I was running 6 miles a day (PM) and could run up to 10 miles
    at once, I was lean and mean. 
    
    Either your numbers are wrong or Shannon if F.O.S.

    .509  I agree.  Several female co-workers are avid (and faithful)
    runners; I envy their physical fitness.  They never cease to
    amaze me with their stamina to go out and run on their lunch hours;
    even when the heat has been as ghastly as it has been since July
    4th here in Hotlanta.
    
    On the other hand, maybe Shannon jogs like Sliq, right thru the
    drive-in lane at Mickey Dee's :-}
    
    

    I vote that the part of Shannon Faulkner should be played
    by Genevieve Bujold (who bolted from the Captain's chair of
    "Star Trek: Voyager" after a few days of filming).
    
    Chris

    
    re. 509,
    
    For the sake of argument (what nobler cause could there be?) I will
    disagree with you and say that it is possible, albeit unlikely, that
    Shannon Faulkner was running as much as she has claimed.  Remember,
    she may have been running shorter distances, or less frequently, all 
    along and only increased the distance to the stated mileage during
    the last few weeks, when it became apparent that she was going to
    get into the Citadel.
    
    Even if she jumped into such a severe program without adequate
    preparation, Shannon is still at an age when the body will let you
    get away with things like that, if she wanted it bad enough to 
    endure the pain.
    
    When I began running at the age of 17, I had never done anything
    athletic in my life.  It was June, and I knew I had the physical
    test for West Point coming up in the fall.  So, in my youthful
    exuberance, I said to myself, "Self, if I want to do well at this
    test, I'm going to have to run five miles a day, every day, between
    now and the date of the test."  The concept of overtraining would not
    have occured to me then; I was still convinced that which did not 
    kill me would make me stronger.
    
    The first day, I went out to the local eighth-of-a-mile track, and
    ran/walked five miles.  I ran until I couldn't run anymore, and 
    then I walked until I could run again.  I did this every single day,
    and every day I could run a little further, and had to walk a 
    little bit less.  But I always did at least five miles.
    
    Looking back, I am surprised that I did not do permanent damage to my
    knees or ankles.  I was in absolute agony for the first two weeks.  My
    joints hurt so much that it took me several minutes to climb a simple
    flight of stairs, and I had to go up it sideways, making extensive
    use of the handrails.
    
    Despite the pain, I became better and better at running.  My 
    schedule eventually broke down to:  getting up in the morning, running,
    going to class, running, going to the gym, then running some more, 
    then sleeping.  Five weeks after I started, I ran my first 10K.  By
    the end of the summer, I was logging over ten miles a day.
    
    The point of this long-winded diatribe is that if you want something
    bad enough, you can achieve almost anything.  If it was really
    Shannon Faulkner's most heartfelt desire to attend the Citadel, it
    would be entirely possible that she would have subjected herself to
    running the kind of mileage that she has claimed.  Subsequent events
    would seem to indicate that she did not want it that much, but the
    fact remains that such things are within the realm of possibility.
    
    
    
    Rob
                    

    Rob -- all that exercise was no detriment to your doublejointedness
    neither!  Why even at this late date, you are still able to pat yerself
    on the back without incurring damage to yer sainted jointz.  Congrats!
    

    
    Hey, if I don't do it -- who will?
    
    :-)
    
    
    
    Rob
    

    Don't look at ME!!!!!:)
    

    
    re: .478
    
    She also stated for the record that the authorities at the infirmary
    kept her there longer than she wanted to stay and that she was able to
    return to "duty" after just a day or two.
    
      The head of the infirmary (a woman I believe, fwiw) just about called
    her a bald-faced liar and said (paraphrased) "Shame on Faulkner!" for
    making a statement like that. The head of the infirmary stated the
    length of the stay was entirely up to, and in the hands of Faulkner.
    She stayed as long as she did of her own accord.
    
      The head of the infirmary has asked Faulkner for an apology...
    

Re: .509
    
>    There is no way in hell that Shannon was running 2-3 miles in the AM
>    and 3-5 miles in the PM.

From my note .478

>And yet in that televised interview, Faulkner said
>she had run 2-3 miles each a.m and then another 
>3-5 miles in the p.m. every day in preparation.....
>Go figure.
 ^^^^^^^^^
Did you happen to read the last two words of my note?
Well, read them again and go do it again.

    
    re: .517
    
    Well... since her veracity is in question, the point seems to be
    moot... no??

But Andy, I want everyone to see Shannon as a victim.

    Cow Moots.
    

    
    
    Can they blur those out on film????
    

    -1, ya but only on really old fim

Second woman hopes to become Citadel cadet


(c) 1995 Copyright The News and Observer Publishing Co.
(c) 1995 Associated Press

CHARLESTON, S.C. (Aug 31, 1995 - 21:24 EDT) -- The next
woman who wants to march in the all-male corps at The Citadel
is a military academy student and star athlete who has a brother
in the college and a father who is an alumnus.

Nancy Mellette, a 17-year-old senior at a North Carolina
military boarding school, is asking to intervene in the Shannon
Faulkner case, according to federal court papers filed Thursday
by lawyers who also represented Ms. Faulkner in her quest to
become a cadet.

Ms. Mellette wants to join The Citadel in the fall of 1996.

"I think she could do the physical part of it ... but I'm not too sure
how they would treat her," Katherine Mellette, her twin sister,
said outside the family home in suburban Columbia.

Her mother, Connie, said she admired her daughter for "having
the courage to even try to take this step."

Ms. Faulkner fought a 2 1/2-year court battle to become a cadet
at the state-supported military college. She became ill during the
day of rigorous training known as "hell week" and quit five days
later, saying the stress of the court battle and her isolation at the
college threatened her health.

South Carolina Attorney General Charles Condon said he would
fight Ms. Mellette's bid.

"Obviously they're very adept at public relations," he said of the
women's lawyers. "They've taken a bath in public relations and
they've gotten a new and improved model."

Ms. Mellette is a second lieutenant in the Oak Ridge Military
Academy corps of cadets, court papers said. She is on the
cross-country, track, basketball and softball teams. Calls to
Oakridge administrators to get comment from her were not
returned.

Lawyer Val Vojdik originally said two women wanted to join the
corps, but she said only one is pursuing the matter for now. She
would not elaborate.

Ms. Vojdik would not say whether Ms. Mellette had approached
the lawyers or they approached her after Ms. Faulkner dropped
out.

Ms. Mellette has not yet applied to The Citadel, the school said.
Her brother, a senior and captain at the college, did not return a
call to his barracks room. It wasn't immediately known what
year her father graduated from the school.

Ms. Mellette must intervene to have a say in the November trial
of a women's leadership program that South Carolina has
proposed as a way to prevent women from breaking the all-male
tradition at The Citadel, Ms. Vojdik said.

Twenty-two students arrived at private Converse College in
Spartanburg on Wednesday to begin the first year of the South
Carolina Institute of Leadership for Women.

In Virginia, the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals has approved a
similar program set up by the Virginia Military Institute, the
nation's only other state-supported, all-male military college.
The women's program began last week at Mary Baldwin College.

The Justice Department, which is challenging all-male
admission policies at The Citadel and VMI, has asked the U.S.
Supreme Court to declare the separate-but-equal program at
Mary Baldwin unconstitutional.

    Shannon will appear on the "Oprah" show this Thursday.

    
    <-------------
    
    
                                B A R F   !   !   ! 
    
    Does anyone really think that she wasn't in this just for the
    publicity?
    

|   Does anyone really think that she wasn't in this just for the
|   publicity?
    
    She wasn't in this just for the publicity.
    
    								-mr. bill

  .525

   <raises hand>

    
    <---- I'm wit doze two.
    

    
    
    
                    Yup, that does not surprise me.
    
    

    Money and fame may not have been among her original motives,
    but they sure look tempting now, eh?
    
    Why go on Oprah (or sign a movie deal, or write a book, or go
    on the talk circuit, etc.)?  If the answer is "to tell her side
    of the story", then I submit that she's already told it at the
    various press conferences that have been held.  What more is
    there to say?  It's all over.  Except for the moneychanging,
    that is.
    
    Chris

    Oprah nauseates me with her philanthropic schtick. Money is the name of
    her game.

	>>What more is
        >>there to say? 

	Maybe there's more to say to people like Dan Killoran.

    
    > Maybe there's more to say to people like Dan Killoran.
    
    Such as, my dear?
    

    >Money is the name of her game.
    
    OH NO!!!! She makes money. We should hang her for sure.

    
>>    Such as, my dear?

    Such as, "I didn't do it just for the publicity."
    

  .536 oh that's a very strange sentence - yes indeedy.

    
    
    I think she had gotten in over her head and didn't know how to say no
    to the liars who were handling her case.  
    
    
    

>>                              -< Better My Lady? >-

    it's a thing of beauty and a joy forever.
    

    
    > Such as, "I didn't do it just for the publicity."
    
    To which my reply would be "Horsefeathers !"
    

    
>>    To which my reply would be "Horsefeathers !"

    How the hell do you know what motivated her originally?
    

    Didn't you already say you thought she did it to make a political
    statement? Therefore it wasn't _just_ for the publicity. This next one
    actually seems serious about doing it; we'll see.

    
    > How the hell do you know what motivated her originally?
    
    I don't know what motivated her originally.  I just don't believe her. 
    I think that she thought it would be neat to do it, and get all the
    publicity.  
    

    
    > Didn't you already say you thought she did it to make a political
    > statement? Therefore it wasn't _just_ for the publicity.
    
    IMO this is a distinction without a difference.
    

    .524 ya, but will she make it to the first commercial break?
    

    Melette.  You heard it here first ;-).
    
    DougO

    Well, Oprah is known to be very generous.  Perhaps she'll give
    Shannon a copy of her new diet book, loan Shannon her personal
    trainer, join her in long runs.  Then Shannon will be back in good
    physical condition and try it all over next year :-)
    

    I taped Oprah today to see what Shannon had to say.  My impressions
    were that she got in over her head.  I think she honestly started
    this whole case because she wanted to go to the school, but once
    her lawyers got involved it became their cause, and Shannon was just
    a puppet. I do believe that the next girl to go this route will have a
    much easier time because she will know exactly what kind of reaction to
    expect and also, because I don't think the media coverage will be as
    great - for this, Shannon deserves some credit.  There was a cadet and
    a Col Leedom from the Citadel being interviewed and IMHO they did not
    represent themselves well.  In fact, my impression of the Col. is that
    he is an ass. My 2 cents.
    
    Chris

    I'm sure Oprah was dripping with empathy too.
    
    8^p

    Yesterday, Shannon Faulkner said she had plans to reenter the Citadel.

    Well, not really.  If other women are accepted, she MAY reapply per her
    sworn testimony in federal court.  

    >> Yesterday, Shannon Faulkner said she had plans to reenter the Citadel.
    
    The scriptwriters probably convinced her to work in a good
    sequel tag to the end of the screenplay.
    
    Chris

Attorneys question Citadel's plan to kick out pregnant cadets
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Copyright � 1996 Nando.net
Copyright � 1996 The Associated Press

CHARLESTON, S.C. (Aug 9, 1996 6:17 p.m. EDT) -- The Citadel's plan to kick
out cadets who become pregnant violates the law, while putting latches only
on women's dorm room doors is discriminatory, lawyers who fought to get
women into the state military school said Friday.

The 21-page plan filed this week covers everything from where women will be
housed to what type of lipstick they may wear and whom they may date. But it
is basically "a plan to plan," said Val Vojdik, one of the lawyers who has
led the challenge to the school's all-male policy.

The U.S. Justice Department joined the women's lawyers in the response,
filed in preparation for a federal court hearing on the plan Monday. At
least three women are expected to enroll as cadets when school starts Aug.
24.

The Citadel decided to admit women after the U.S. Supreme Court ruled June
26 in a challenge to the Virginia Military Institute that excluding women
from a state-supported school was unconstitutional. The Citadel and VMI were
the only all-male, state-supported military schools in the nation.

VMI still is deciding what it will do.

The Citadel's plan to keep pregnant women out and dismiss those who became
pregnant while in school violates civil rights laws, Ms. Vojdik said.

"You have to treat pregnancy as a temporary disability," she said.

And while the school would put latches on women's barracks doors, male
cadets rooms would remain without them.

"The problem here is that women are singled out for different treatment; a
uniform policy of latches on all doors -- and specifying the limited times
during the day when they may be used -- better serves the objective of
assimilation," the response said.

The lawyers also said the state should modify the makeup of the Citadel's
governing board "since, as it stands now, no woman will be eligible for the
board for a significant time to come."

The board includes seven Citadel graduates elected by the General Assembly,
three members elected by alumni and one member appointed by the governor.

The Citadel is too vague about what it will do about sexual harassment
training, scholarship money for women and when an additional woman staff
member will join the commandant's office, the women's lawyers said.

On Monday, the women's lawyers may ask U.S. District Judge C. Weston Houck
to formally declare The Citadel's previous males-only policy
unconstitutional and order the state never to return it. They also have
asked Houck to retain jurisdiction of the case for five years.

Citadel attorneys said that is not necessary.

"Coeducation at The Citadel is now a permanent fact. It is clearly in The
Citadel's best interest to make it work," they wrote in a court filing.

They want the court retain jurisdiction only long enough to settle
attorney's fees and to determine there is no expectation The Citadel would
return to the males-only policy.

 Unbelievable..

Citadel plan to admit women will go before judge Monday for OK
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Copyright � 1996 Nando.net
Copyright � 1996 The Associated Press

CHARLESTON, S.C. (Aug 11, 1996 4:23 p.m. EDT) -- A federal judge will hear
arguments Monday on The Citadel's plans for its new female cadet corps --
everything from dating to door latches to pregnancy.

At least three women were expected to enroll when school reopens on Aug. 24
-- the first since the state-supported military school changed its all-male
policy in June.

Last week, The Citadel filed a 21-page plan with U.S. District Judge C.
Weston Houck outlining how women will be accommodated.

But lawyers for the women joined the U.S. Justice Department in opposing a
plan to put latches only on the women's barracks, calling it discriminatory.
They also oppose plans forbidding dating between freshmen and upperclassmen
or dating within a chain of command.

Furthermore, lawyers said a proposal requiring pregnant cadets to leave
school violates federal civil rights laws that say pregnancy must be treated
as a temporary disability.

The Citadel agreed to admit women two days after the U.S. Supreme Court
ruled that the male-only admissions policy at Virginia Military Institute
was unconstitutional. VMI still hasn't decided what it will do.

    Only in America can truly humourous litigation of this stupidity
    be deemed necessary. WHich lawyers will be making billyuns from THIS
    case?
    
    

    Wouldn't be so one-sided if they also kicked out any guy who gets
    someone pregnant while he is in school.

How would they prove that?  Maternity always seems much easier to prove
than paternity.

Howzabout if they kick out anyone who becomes pregnant regardless of his/her
sex?

    What do they mean, "latches"?
    
    .553> the school would put latches on women's barracks doors...
          [vs.]... a uniform policy of latches on all doors--and 
          specifying the limited times during the day when they
          may be used.
    
    Do the doors swing free now, or what?!  If they mean "locks", why
    would there be "limited times during the day when they may be used"?
    Makes me wonder what side of the door accepts the key....
    
    Leslie

    >kick out anyone who becomes pregnant regardless of his/her sex?
    
    Good.  But to be fair they'd also have to kick out anyone who GOT
    someone pregnant regardless of their sex, wouldn't they?