Conference napalm::heavy_metal

    BK made a great point a while back.
    
    Why the hell would a band want its fans (the source of their income)
    to kill themselves.  That's the most rediculious thing I've ever
    heard.
    
    Those two boys were also Drinking hard alcohol, smoking pot, and
    snorting cocaine.  Musta been those damned subliminal messages at
    work again.
    
    Steve O

    I'd like someoone to name 1 JP tune that talks about suicide!
    
    I wuz once a big Priest fan and I can't think of one.

    
    	Is this a re-run...or have I seen this before.  Gawddamn I am
    tired of all this subliminal message bullsh*t.  When are these people
    gonna lighten up and see the story for what it really is instead
    of trying to put the blame where it dosen't belong.
    
    Bk
    
    re Steve...thanx for putting that it...saved me some time.  8^)  
    
    

    Re:-1
      This has been talked about in every Conference
    jim..tama

    Several times in every conference
    
    Steve O

    Yes Steve I really would like to get to the bottom of this and drop
    this subject Dead In its tracks! but to tell you the truth,While
    People like Tipper Gore (sp?) are around this battle will never
    end. We may be fighting but they will NEVER take us down!
    
                                         jim..Heavy_metal_draft
    
                  WE  WANT  YOU !

    
      They think they have found a loophole in this case, they believe
    these guys were driven to suicide by a combination of "backward
    lyrics, subliminal messages, and hypnotic beat of the music"...the
    tv show claimed lyrics in one of the songs, played backwards, say
    things like "suicide is the answer" and "F**k the Lord" and things
    like that. 
    
    I still don't go for it. In my opinion, this is just another case
    of trying to protect stupid people from themselves.
    
    -Bruce
    
    
    

        1)  Why would anyone wanna play a tape/record backwards?
    
        2)  Why would anyone take ANY lyrics seriously?  Have they
            no minds of their own?
    
        3)  How could anyone prove that the music was the cause of
            the shooting?  Like Steve and Brian said, alcohol and/or
            drugs are overlooked when combined with HEAVY_METAL music.
    
        Would the person who remembers which album this was supposedly
        contained on please refresh our memories?  I seem to recall
        that the 'message' was a mistake ... one of the band members
        apparently said "They'll kill themselves when they hear this"
        in the background during the mixing.  Thanks for any info.
    
                                                       GTI

    
    
    There are like millions of suicides that have happened.
    Why do people pick out the ones where the person was
    listening to heavy metal?
    
    I'm sure noone pays attention if the person listens
    to Air Supply and then kills themself - its probably
    happened before.
    
    What about people in department stores who go beserk?
    Is there subliminal messages in the Muzac????
    
    I used to listen to Priest constantly and I'm not dead yet.
    
    
    
    F.

    HA!  Gosh, I see this is an interesting note.
    
    I saw that show last night also.  It was pretty helarious.  I guess
    the second guy who blew his face off and lived is saying it was
    really because of the music.
    
    But I agree with most everybody.  The losers were seriously stoned
    when they did it.  Shoot (little pun!), Mr. Faceless probably doesn't
    even remember doing it.  Of course, when I get seriously stoned,
    I have a bit of enough intelligence to say, "Hey, ya, here you blow
    your face off first and I'll follow."  Which, of course, I never
    follow through on.  Gee, call me a lier.  But it won't be my face
    smeared on the ceiling!
    
    Personally, I'm pretty sick of the old ladies ragging about heavy
    metal music killing their kids.  I've got a tape at home that I
    spliced together.  It contains some of the most mellow - best songs
    I've ever heard.  AND THEY'RE ALL BY HEAVY METAL BANDS!  I'll write
    down what they are if anyone is interested and post the list tomorrow
    or so.  I'd like to send the tape some of these people and flame
    all over them about stuff.
    
    Hey, what about Pink Floyd's "Empty Spaces" on their Wall album.
    There it says "Congradulations, you have found the secret.  Send
    your answer to ..."  and gives an address in England.  AND IT IS
    ALL RECORDED BACKWARDS!  Now this "scientist" on the show last night
    said your brain can pick up and understand messages recorded backwards.
    I don't remembering listening to The Wall for the first time and
    suddenly mailing some bogus 'answer' to this address!!  In fact,
    I don't know of anyone who did such a thing!  Seems this "scientist"
    has his head on backwards.
    
    cDw

    
    I kind of think it's strange that we never hear about someone killing
    them selves and finding a bible on the body.  "Gee, he was such a quiet
    man, I guess that reading the bible is what did it."
    
    What's next?  Studies that show that 98% of all convicts listen to HM?
    
    
    						Dr. Pizza Guy      <)
    

    
      Remember, this stuff is nothing new... almost 20 years ago, 
    Charles Manson (supposedly) got messages to have is followers
    massacre people through The Beatles music, from their white album.
    
    People always seem to have scapegoats to blame their own stupidity
    on. 
    
    -Bruce
    
    

    
    >I thought all people with guns drove pickups trucks....
    
    I don't have a gun and I drive a pick up truck!!! 8^)
    
    I've been trying to stay out of this subject of H-M being blamed
    for suicide etc...My will power is gone.  IMO what it comes down
    to is too things either the parents failed with the kids and are
    looking for some one or thing to blame most convient is music and
    Heavy Metal.  Two) family members don't want to admit that the
    person whom commited whatever had mental troubles so what the
    heck blame H-M.
    
    Heavy Metal music is used for a scape goat for alot of things becasue
    a majority of the adult population does not like it and the image
    it projects.  It is a fact of life and nothing anyone does or says
    is going to change it.  People have doing better to do but b***h
    about something they don't like or have never tried.
    
    I'm starting to babble....I think I'll shut up now.
    
    
    Rae

    
    
    	My question is, where did he get the gun in the first 
    	place and what's the gun doing in his room, surely
    	most people have gun racks or some kinda storage for
    	this stuff. 
    
    	And then, why did the kid go from idolizing JP to 
    	hating them, my answer is cuz' his lawyer told him to.
    
    	I saw the show and there are still alot of unanswered
    	questions, IMO
    
    	Someone already said this but it's a main factor in
    	all this mess about tapes, TAPES OF ANY KIND ARE NOT
    	INTENDED TO BE LISTENED TO BACKWARDS, IF THEY WERE
    	SOMEONE PROBABLY WOULD'VE ALREADY PUT THEM IN STORES
    	
    	So in ending, all I'd like to say is that the people
    	that choose to give our kinda of music a hard time
    	are the kinda people that don't have the word
    	forgiveness in their vocabulary. All in All....
    	to err is human to forgive is divine....
    
    	Hollywood...................long live Heavy Metal!
    

    
    	I would  really like to know the exact song that caused these
    kids to go that far ?  I have ALL but ONE of Priest's albums, and
    I  sure  as  $h!t  don't hear any songs that say suicide's okay !
    `Beyond the  Realms of Death' is about dieing, but anyone stoned/
    fried/wasted/cooked(no offense Pete :^)) could take ANYTHING  the
    WRONG  WAY !  I  could  understand it if it was the `Bee Gee's' !
    :^) x 1000  
    
    	Just  like  this church that I went to one time.  They played
    a  whole BUNCH of records backwards, and told everyone that there
    was  a message.  They played each section four times, and I NEVER
    ONCE heard anything subliminal or even a something that was clear
    enough to BE  A  MESSAGE !  Hypocrites !  Afterward, they  had  a 
    book/record  burning outside the church.  The minister was sad to
    see me leave with `British Steel' blaring in my car, and asked me
    to come back.  Said he could save me from the devil's music. B_S!
    Never went back, and never saw the girl I went with again.
    
    METALord"_will_listen_to_HM_until_old_age_takes_me_!

    You know, its funny I just thought of this, but looking back I could
    sware I remember hearing years ago about a kid who killed himself
    while the record he was listening to was still spinning.
    
    You know what group it was?
    
    THE PARTRIDGE FAMILY!!!
    
    I think I heard about in in religion class in high school during
    one of our discussions!!!
    
    NO WONDER THAT PROGRAM WENT OFF THE AIR!!!  Everybody who watched
    it KILLED THEMSELVES, RIGHT???!!!???
    
    Suck on that, PMRC!
    
    HITMAN

    
    
      re. 32 >>   I don't remember what album/song they said these
                  delinquents were listening to but a major point
                  is that they were seriously fanatics of J_P.  One
                  of their girlfriends said her boyfriend would
                  wake up and first thing he would do is pop on some
                  Priest.
    
                  Also, the report is that they were listening to the
                  SAME album for 5 or 6 HOURS -- THE SAME ALBUM!!
                  First of all, that is probably some sort of torture
                  test in its self and add constant beer, dope, and
                  snort on top of that and I don't know too many people
                  who wouldn't blow their brains out!  Yowza!
    
                  Hey, here's a thought:  if these bozo's "constantly"
                  (as the report said) listened to Priest everyday
                  then why the f*ck didn't they blow brains before?
    
    
    Hammer  (Welp, since everybody here at CXO calls me that I guess
             I'd might as well start using it).

    I have been listening to Priest for years now.  I wake up and pop
    in a casset.  I have listened to one album for 3 hours straight.
    and have listeded to Priest for 8 hours while I was working.  I
    say that I'm a BIG fan of them.  (you could almost say fanatical).
    I never once had the urge to off myself because of this.
    
    Why don't these people just look and they will see the problem
    with their kids.  Priest has nothing to do with it!!!  These 
    A$$es need something to  blame their own f*cking stupidity on.
    Just put yourself in Mr. Faceless's shoes.  Of course I'd blame
    the music.  I just did the most STUPID thing because I was
    stoned/smashed out of my head.  Who knows the little twit, might
    have had a fight with his bro and blew his head off.  What a cover
    up.  "The Music made us do it!!!".  Just like that Son of Sam guy.
    I have to blame something so I will get off easier.  Wouldn't it be
    possible that he may killed his brother and then saw what he did
    and tried to do himself also.  THESE PEOPLE PISS ME OFF!!!!!!
    Priest should sue for slander!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    The Sentinel (Who listens to Priest everyday, and still is willing
    to trash his car to save a ground squirrel.....)
     

        There was an article in the new RS that my sister pointed out
        to me last night:
    
        The album/tape/whatever was "Stained Class".  And yes, they
        had been listening to the SAME album for 5 hours or so, and
        had been drinking beer and smoking marrihuana (this only makes
        sense if U saw "Murphy's Law" with Charles Bronson).
    
        The plaintiff (lawyer for the kid(s)) is claiming that sublim-
        inal messages aren't (shouldn't be?) included under "free speech".
    
                                                       GTI

    Ya but that is still IF (BIG IF) there really are any subliminal
    messages!
    
    re .42 >>  Man, that's nuts.  Three hours?  I don't think I've listened
               any album for three hours straight.
    
               Some good points though.  I wonder if faceless freddy
               really did blow his friend's brains out.  Definitely
               possible.  Ya, I think J_P and Oz should sue the piss
               out of these people for ruining their reps (although
               record sales could have actually increased, I don't know).
    
    Hammer (who loves to run over squirls and especially cats and even
            once trashed his dad's car while in hot pursuit of a dog!)
    

    Yeah, I have to agree.  I think most folks would need some, umm
    *assistance* to listen to the same album more than a couple of times
    through. 
    
    gh

    Kid blows face off and survives.  Family sells household items to
    help pay medical bills.  Family mortgages their house to help pay
    medical bills.  Oh dear Oh dear.  These bills are adding up higher
    and higher, hundreds of thousands of dollars and more operations
    and plastic surgery to go.  How can we pay for this.  
    (insert lightbuld here) I know, PMRC has been saying a lot of things
    about subliminal messages in HM tunes.  Lets say that they were
    listening to one of them and there must have been a subliminal message
    in it telling them to kill themselves.  Oh but wait a minute, they
    were drinking and had drugs too.  Well, on second thought, booze
    and drugs are old news.  This HM stuff is the newest thing.  Everyone
    will concentrate on that part of it.  Now, how are we going to get
    junior to go along with this?  I know, we'll tell him if we pull
    it off, we'll get him a Porche.  That's it!  We're all set.  Lets
    call the lawyer.  He'll go along with it considering the percentage
    he'll get when it's over, not to mention the publicity.  
    
    And so the story goes.
    
    Chris D.

    
    
    Re: - .29, .42 Ya gotta point there. Which is easier:
    a) My child has a multiple substance abuse problem, in
    addition to serious and numerous mental problems.
    b) This band killed my kid.
    
    RE: - .10 I must tell this - I am 100% serious, no BS - 
    I worked in a K-Mart (sometime back) in Suitland, Md. 
    They played Musak. After working there for a while, I 
    started to notice "...be honest..." and "...don't steal..."
    being softly sung along with the low-level mood music. 
    Around this same time, the story broke in the media that
    certain chain stores were doing this. It supposedly had 
    minimal effectiveness, but when yer talkin' 15% of 
    $750,000 worth of "shrinkage" a year, I guess management
    thought it was worth the probably minimal added expense.
    Hafta wonder who it was aimed at, though... from what I was
    told, most of the shrinkage was internal... and most 
    K-Mart choppers don't have anything to sublimate! 

    P.S. Re: last few replies - should we start a seperate
    "Wasting critters with yer auto" note, or... would that be in
    bad taste?
    
    
    
    YOWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!
    
    
                                        Warren Young
    
    

    
      RE .47;
    
     You could make him listen to the music some more after he blew
    his face off, then maybe he'd finish the job himself!
    
    8^)
    
    

    
    	   Making Judas Priest suffer for what happened to those kids
    is like
    	making Sammy Hagar pay for all the speed limit signs that have
    had the '55' circled and crossed through.
    
    				Les
    				 \8^)
    

    re:.56
    
    At least with Sammy, they can say that the kids were copying the
    video.   I don't remember when anyone in Priest blew his face off.
    
    The Sentinel 

    
    
         I saw a commercial for Entertainment tonight, and tinight they
    have a special report about the lawsuit brought against Judas Priest
    for those two kids shooting themselves. What will Mary Hart think,
    I bet she's a Priest fan all the way.
    
    /Bill
    

    In the vid for "You Got Another Thing Coming" Rob blows some dudes
    head off. IMO these kids were trying to be like the dude in the
    vid and Priest should compensate them fully, I'm just glad they
    never saw a MJ vid cuz they'd really look stupid dancing in alleys.
    
    
    the devil dog who wishes people would take responsibility for their
    actions. 

    	Jesse,
    
    	Did Rob blow that guys head off in that video or did the guy
    self destruct?  I may be thinking of the wrong video.  Was it the
    guy in the suit with the brief case and he was walking...forget
    where...anyway, I always got the impression from that video that
    the guy self distructed.
    
    	I disagree with you that JP should compensate the families of
    these two kids.  I see videos as an artistic/creative form.  And
    as such, it is open to interpretation by the individual.  Musicians
    are artists to me and should not have to censure their work in anyway.
    Nor do I think they are responsible for the actions of some obviously
    unbalanced kids.  I thought that there was a meaning to this video
    more along the lines of what society can do to people. 
    
    	Any way, my basic point is that musicians should be able to
    create their music, videos or what ever without having to worry
    how it will effect people.  They are art forms (IMHO) and deserve
    to be presented uncensured.  People are then free to pick and choose
    what the want to listen to or watch.
    
    	Whew....
    
    	Vicki
    

    re: Vicki
    
    You may want to read .60 again, he didn't mean that literally. 
    It was tongue in cheek...   :-)
      
    gh

    re .61    Perhaps I shoulda included  lotsa :^)s  cuz I was kidding.
     
    I thought the part about how they would be influenced to dance in
    alleys after seeing a Micheal Jackson vid gave my sarcasm away.
    I'm sorry for not clearly stating the scarcasm contained in the
    note. 
    
    
    have a nice day :-)
    
    the devil dog

    	Oh, welll....it was Sunday....and I had a hangover....too much
    sex on the beach I guess !!!  Sorry, guys !
    
    	I promise to read more carefully next time, okay?  Maybe....;^)
    
    	Vicki

    This is the same story I saw on Current Affair that pissed me off
    so bad when I saw it.
    
    Actually, they weren't brothers, they were best friends, I believe.
    They did *everything* together. Two days before Christmas one of
    the friends gave his friend the 'Stained Class' album. He loved
    it and listened to it from morning til night. The song they are
    accused of putting subliminal messages in is called "Saints in Hell".
    Apparently they were partying in the kids room. Getting high and
    drinking alot, they made a pack to committ suicide and somehow got
    a rifle, and walked down to the playground. One succeeded in his
    mission, the other chickened out last minute and only got his face.
    
    I agree totally, "gee let's not deal with the fact that our no-life
    juvenile son has a drug and alcohol problem," "It's that Music!!!"
    
    BTW-
    
    For those who asked why people would play an album backwards on
    purpose? Only people who are looking for "so called" subliminal
    messages, play music backwards. That's supposedly how you can 
    hear them....whatever! I dunno, I listen to Judas Priest, and I<kill>
    don't have any<kill> subliminal message<kill> problems!
    
    <kill> See? I'm just<kill> FiNe!!!!!
    
    AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGHGGGGGGGGGHHHH, I just heard a Whitney
    Houston song and for some reason beat the sense out of my boss with
    the three hole punch???
    
    
    ;')
    
    -crazy>

    FLAME ON!!!
    
    I can't believe what I'm hearing...It is a well known fact that
    all these demon worshiping heavy metal bands use subliminal messages
    to control our kids.  Of course these kids are on drugs.  The music
    tells them to take them.  After all we know that all those bands
    are part of the reason we have a drug problem in america.  I heard
    of one kid who after listening to Aerosmith's "Dream on" went and
    stole his mother's eight ball out of her purse.  He then OD'ed and
    died.  This was all the fault of subliminal messaages that were
    put on the records just to make kids get hooked on drugs.  COme
    on now the name Judas Priest tells you alot about the band.  Judas
    was the one who betrayed Christ.  Any band that uses that name is
    bound to Saten and his evil ways....
    
    FLAME OFF!!!
    
    
    AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH...... I was watching a talk show with
    some of these people who blame music on social problem.  They must
    have used subliminal messages to make me say that stuff......
    
    I'm sorry if it got any of you folks rialed....

    
        Geez, I thought u were cracking up on us!!
    
                                                       GTI
    

        Just wondering if anything new has come up on this case.
    Did they finally decide that they were nuts and drop it, or 
    are they gonna follow thru.
        Any input would be appreciated by this "inquiring mind".
    
    					Thanks,
    
                     
    

    For those of you that don't follow the UPI feeds on USENET, the case
    has already started in Reno, Nevada.  Some interesting articles have
    come up so far.  I'll post some...
    
    Mike

From: [email protected] (CY RYAN)
Newsgroups: clari.news.music
Subject: Mother in Judas Priest case says son used drugs

	RENO, Nev. (UPI) -- The mother of a teenager who killed himself in a
suicide pact after listening to allegedly subliminal messages on a Judas
Priest album said her son used drugs and drank but was not involved in
satanic rituals.
	Aunetta Roberson, who is suing the rock band over her son's 1985
suicide, also testified in U.S. District Court that she does not
remember ever talking with her son, Raymond Belknap, about the British
heavy metal band and that he never had magazines, posters or books about
the musicians in his room.
	Her testimony Wednesday came on the third day of the trial in which
Judas Priest is accused of concealing on their ``Stained Class'' album
subliminal messages urging suicide.
	On Thursday, the jury was scheduled to hear recordings of the
album. The record will be played at a slow speed in an attempt by the
plaintiffs to show the hidden messages are present.
	The parents of Belknap and James Vance are seeking unspecified
damages, arguing that those messages prompted their sons to make the
suicide pact.
	The plaintiffs argue that Belknap and Vance were heavily influenced
by the records and it took only the subliminal messages to push them
over the edge. The messages allegedly say, ``Try suicide ... let's be
dead ... do it, do it.''
	Belknap, 18, died instantly after he shot himself with a shotgun on
Dec. 23, 1985. Vance, then 20, blew away part of his face but lived for
three more years before his death on Thanksgiving Day 1988.
	The two smoked marijuana, drank about four to five beers each and
listened to the Judas Priest records for hours before entering the
suicide pact.
	Judas Priest members have maintained there are no subliminal
messages.
	Under cross-examination by Bill Peterson, a lawyer for Judas Priest
and co-defendant CBS Inc., which distributes the group's albums,
Roberson said Wednesday that ``Stained Class'' was on the turntable in
her home when Belknap and Vance left to shoot themselves.
	But she said the side that was playing contained the song ``Heroes
End and Saints in Hell.'' The song in dispute, ``Better by You, Better
than Me,'' was on the other side.
	The plaintiffs' suit originally said the subliminal messages were
contained only in ``Better by You, Better than Me.'' However, the
plaintiffs now say there are hidden suicide suggestions throughout the
album.
	Roberson, who now lives in Las Vegas, said her son dressed normally
and was not involved in satanic rituals.
	She acknowledged that she knew he used drugs and she allowed him to
drink beer in their home. Her philosophy was that he was free to do what
he wanted -- ``as long as he had a job.''
	If successful, the lawsuit would force record companies to screen
lyrics or face the possibility of having to pay huge damages in similar
cases.
	In at least three previous cases -- in California, Georgia and New
Jersey -- fans of heavy metal have killed themselves after listening to
the album ``Suicide Solution'' by Ozzy Ozbourne.
	The California case was dismissed when a court ruled that song
lyrics were protected by the free-speech provisions of the First
Amendment.
	Although he has yet to decide whether the Judas Priest recordings
contain subliminal messages, U.S. District Judge Jerry Carr Whitehead
has ruled that such messages are not a form of speech and therefore are
not covered by First Amendment protections.

From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: clari.news.music,clari.news.law.civil,clari.news.issues
Subject: Judas Priest members say they defending free speech

	RENO, Nev. (UPI) -- Members of the British rock band Judas Priest
say their trial is an attack on free speech.
	The members, in an interview with the Reno Gazette-Journal
published Thursday, said it would be a blow to entertainers and artists
worldwide if they lose the suit filed against them by the parents of two
young men who committed suicide after listening to the band's album
``Stained Class.''
	``We're not only defending free speech but communication of artists
around the world,'' said Rob Halford, the lead singer of the band.
``It's not just Judas Priest that's on trial here but free speech in its
broad symbolism.''
	The suit is about subliminal messages -- whether they are on the
records and whether they led two young men James Vance and Raymond
Belknap into a suicide pact in 1985.
	District Judge Jerry Whitehead has ruled the lyrics and music are
protected by the First Amendment right of free speech. But he said that
subliminal messages does not have this protection.
	Guitarist K.K. Downing said a defeat in the case would be a
disaster for  entertainers and artists. ``The consequences could be
dramatic -- the Iron Curtain torn down and hundreds of others put up all
over.''
	Halford, who wrote much of material on ``Stained Class,''
reinterated there are no concealed messages. 
	Attorneys for the families of the two men say these subliminal
messages consist of ``try suicide,'' ``let's be dead,'' and ``do it, do
it.'' The lawyers must convince Whitehead the phrases are hidden on the
album and that they pushed the two men over the edge into the suicide
pact.
	Halford acknowledged publicity from the Reno trial probably will
help in future record sales. He said however, ``We're not actively
exploiting it because we don't want to exploit the pain of the
families.''
	Plans for the band include a tour of Europe and the United States
after the trial and the group is working on a new album. 

    
    
    There was an excellent interview I think it was last Friday on "Current
    Affair"  They had Rob H, and K.K. Downing on.  They were saying
    is the sad part about the whole thing was that Heavy Metal was probably
    the only thing that made them happy considering the atmosphere they
    lived in.  Anyways, it was very interesting. - Kim

    
    	RE: Kim
    	>considering the atomosphere they lived in.
    
    	As I was flipping through the channels last week some time
    	they showed a bit of the actual court hearing.  One of the
    	attorney's asked the mother if she physically abused her
    	child.  She said she didn't abuse him but she did whip him
    	more than she probably should have...
    
    	Hmm..... yup.  It was definitely subliminal.  Please.
    
    	tigga~~~

    
    	Thanks for the cross-postings Mike.
    
    	Mommy's definitely a looney, I'd guess.
    
    							GTI
    

    i think i'll experiment with subliminals, not the backward kind but
    maybe embeded in the wierder frequencies or as sounds played forward
    but really fast. Some i'll be buy more Toenail tapes, some'll be 
    Gorgeous girls Love toe,  yea this could be neat.
    
    The last thing i'll do is get my fans to kill themselves. 
    
    There COULD be such embedded stuff in this record, tho, it's kind of
    stupid to think the back-masking is the only subliminal. 
    Come to think of it, if there's alot of such high-tech subliminals 
    embedded in media, to make it well known might cause a revolution...
    OOPS, think i figured it out, this case is a diversion from the real
    issue..... 

    I did a little research on this years ago (about 9) when it was a real
    hot issue.  Some of the subliminal stuff used in commercials (TV,
    magazines, etc.) were startling.
    
    But that's another rathole...
    
    Mike

    !!!!edicius yrT
    
    
    !!!MALB ot era stnerap ehT

    woe, i think the dog's subliminal would make parental murder-suicide!
    

    Let's face facts people... JP have sold in excess of 10,000,000
    records in the past 17 years.  And after all this time, 2 (apparently
    week minded and possibly abused kids) fans, blow themselves away.
    
    There is no way on earth that JP are responsible for this!  If you
    want to start pointing fingers at artists, try the House Music scene
    for the drug problem in America, or the Hippy movement for the wacked
    out acid heads we have in our towns, etc....
    
    I would not be suprised if Tipper Gore and her people have a hand
    in this.  Once again, we are the scape goat for unattentive parents
    who could not give their kkids the support they needed at an obviously
    really down time in their short lives.
    
    Bonzo.
    p.s. In the 15 years or so I've been into Rock/Metal I have never
    seen music as something to blow myself away over, it's always been
    something to lift me!

    
    
    I think this thing is a big joke.  How can anyone take this thing
    seriously.  It's quite obvious this family was completly WACKO!!
     after hearing all these crazy stories and story changing I can't
    believe the courts have let it come this far.
    
    - JMHO - Kim
    

    
    
    I was thinking the same thing Kim.  When I read the story in Rolling
    Stone I laughed at most of it.  It is sad but, it is incredible to
    read and hear how screwed up these kids were and that the families
    have the gall to blame it on someone.  Take a look in the mirror folks!
    
    It is also pretty incredible that it has made it into the courts and 
    is tying up court time etc.  There are real criminals out there that
    need to be dealt with and the system is being bogged down with
    something as stupid at this.
    
    JMHO..too...Renee

    
    	RE: came after me with a hammer
    
    	If I'm not mistaken, the kid was only 8 when he went after her.
    	Says a lot right there, dontcha think?!
    
    	tigga~~~

    I think the solution would be to bring the Jury to a recording studio,
    pull up the Master 2" reel of S.C., and go thru the reel TRACK BY
    TRACK, that would say wether or not there are any subliminal messages
    in there!!!

    .90
    
    Why fart around??  gotta do something useless with the taxpayers money!
    
    Renee

    
    
    On "Current Affair"  the proscuting lawyer(s) were going to bring
    in the album "Stainless Steel" adn play it backwards.  Rob H. was
    like go ahead so we can get all this behind us.  I don't know what's
    taking them so long. - kim

    I think we need a psychiatric evaluation of the whole family admitted
    as evidence. People close to the edge could be set off by anything. 
    Even Perry Como music  %)
    
    -rt-

    That's Stained Class Kim!
    
    Sheeeesh, battin 1,000 today, huh?
    ;^)

    
    
    RE: Bill
    
    I didn't win this award for nothing.  It tooks years of hard work
    and practice.  
    
    - Kim

    RE: Kim
    
    and the crowd goes W * I * L * D !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I've probably said too much already but I can't resist this...
    
    
    Sometime ago I was watching CNN, and heard something about one of
    the STATES (mid-west I think) was going to ban the playing of certain
    country & western (phttt) music in bars, as the owners hooked on
    to the idea that the songs were so depressing that it made people
    buy more booze.... this could have been around the first of April,
    but if it is true.... this probably has caused more deaths than
    any subliminal messages could ever do.... DRUNK DRIVERS!
    
    Anyway, if this was a bull****, I was taken in!
    
    Bonzo wearing his gullible hat today.

    Yo KimR. You Spilling and tiping is badAs mine, only I is try'in ta do
    it so u is to BLAM!!!
    
    
    Has the prosecution rested yet? If so, will the defense try and show
    how unstable the families were already? Will they take the
    "prosecution has proven nothing" stance? IMO the prosecution is trying
    to base a case on assumptions and accusations. Was the song what put
    them over? Was it the booze? Drugs? Subliminal messages that the
    defense has yet to prove even exist? Beatings from the parents? A
    depressed school life not yet considered? Other pressures that perhaps
    only they knew about when they decided to end it all? There is too much
    to consider, and too many outside influences to single out just one as
    the key to the pact. I think the parents are more to BLAM! than Judas
    Priest ever could be. Their trying to pass off their responsibility on
    JP clearly shows their willingness to avoid the reality that they are
    in all probability the single biggest factor in the dismal life their
    son seemed to have led. The parents should not only be ashamed of
    themselves for blaming JP for their failures, but for the actual
    failures themselves.
    
    the devil dog

From: [email protected] (CY RYAN)
Newsgroups: clari.news.music,clari.news.issues
Subject: Judas Priest songs blare in courtroom

	RENO, Nev. (UPI) -- Rock music by Judas Priest blared through a
district courtroom Thursday in a demonstration to show there were
subliminal messages that prompted a suicide pact of two young men -- but
the judge who will decide the case didn't give any indication whether he
was able to decipher any hidden phrases.
	The songs were played forwards, backwards, speeded up and with
quick switches from loud to soft volume by William Nickloff Jr., who
considers himself an expert in subliminal messages.
	District Judge Jerry Whitehead stared at the audio equipment or
looked at papers on his desks as the song ``Better By You, Better Than
Me,'' was played  in which Nickloff says contains the concealed phrase
``Do It'' at least seven times. The phrase was played repeatedly for the
judge.
	Outside the courtroom, Nickloff said he could not tell whether the
judge heard the subliminal messages which were magnified. But others had
their own opinion.
	Glenn Tipton of the rock group, said the so-called ``Do It''
message was merely breathing with the sound of a grunt. But Kenneth
McKenna, an attorney for one of two families that are suing Judas
Priest, said, ``We demonstrated they exist.'' The words, if they were
there, were hard to make out and McKenna said these phrases are not
supposed to be heard. He said he thought that the first part of the case
had been proven and now his side will have to show the messages
triggered the shotgun shooting.
	In December 1985, Raymond Belknap, then 18, and James Vance, then
20, smoked pot, drank four or five beers each and listened to the record
``Stained Class'' for several hours before joining in a suicide pact.
Belknap took his shotgun and killed himself. Vance blew away his face
but lived until 1988. Their families contend hidden suicidal messages on
the record pushed the two men over the brink into suicide.
	But even Phyllis Vance, the mother of the victim, conceded she
could not decipher the ``do it'' phrase from the recording in the
courtroom. ``I heard a `D' but I didn't hear the rest of it. I became
too upset.'' But she said she was convinced that these messages are on
the record. ``Our experts are doing the best they can,'' she said.
	Attorneys for the families also said hidden on the record are ``Try
Suicide'' and ``Let's Be Dead.'' 
	Nickloff of Sacramento, Calif., who closed his sound and subliminal
message business because of money problems, played a portion of the
Stained Class album in reverse, saying it contains the phrases ``F--- The
Lord,'' and ``F... All of You.''
	He said he was able to detect these messages on the forward play by
``manipulating'' the record, changing filter channels, lowering the tape
speed and increasing the amplifications. The untrained ear, he said,
could not decipher these unless they were played over and over.
	A random survey of about 10 people in the courtroom ended with
mixed findings. Some said they heard the ``do it,'' while others said
there was nothing there.
	Rob Halford, the lead singer of Judas Priest who wrote much of
Stained Class,said the sounds of the so-called ``Do It'' are nothing
more than breath noises or instruments. He said that will be clear when
the defense presents its presentation on 24-track sound equipment.
	He said that Nickloff has no credentials to be considered an expert
in this field. When playing the music in reverse, Halford said anything
can be made of the sounds.
	Gail Edwin, an attorney for CBS Records, which is also a defendant,
called the so called messages ``gobbledygook,'' and said the
demonstration was an illusion much like visiting a fun house with
distorted mirrors.

    
    	The parents probably AREN'T shirking responsibility ... I'll
    	bet they know darn well it was their fault.  But now there's
    	a couple less witnesses as to how bad they actually were as
    	parents, and they see this as a "get rich quick" scheme.
    
    	And the lawyers will take this for (1) publicity, because they
    	are handling a "Heavy_Metal is the work of the devil" case,
    	and (2) they stand the chance of getting rich if they win.
    
    							GTI
    

    Are they asking for a monitary settlement?  For some reason I thought
    they were going for something else.
    
    gh

    I'm not sure what the settlement is, but the mother seems to contradict
    herself in the quotes from the press.  She's trying to win a case and
    then tells the media she couldn't hear any messages.
    
    Mike

    re. last 
    
    	really that alone** the judge should throw it out of court..
    
    Plus I wanna know why that if the parents knew they were smoking and
    drinking, and being minors *what kind of parents would allow it* I 
    mean come-on!
    
    And if sumbinal messages work so **da*ned much how come i'm not
    skinny and quit smoking?? :^}
    
    		wendy o'
    
    
    	
    

  Re 102.  Yes I mostly agree with your analysis.  The parents are very
  definitely to blame for the deaths of their boy and his friend.  But are
  trying both to shift responsibility while at the same time make a name
  for themselves plus maybe a few bucks.

  This is a civil case, so it is not the courts that are at fault in 
  allowing the case to be brought.  The court has no choice in the matter.
  What is at fault is the legal profession in the US, which seem to be
  able to make capital out of the most tenuous and facile of evidence.
  These sort of so called 'lawyers' should be drummed out of the profession.
  The legal professions used to be extremely well respected until the
  fashion for 'ambulance-chasing' etc took hold.  Now if anyone admits
  to being a lawyer at a social gathering (HM concert??) they are immediately
  sneered at and avoided.

  On a more prosaeic note.  How the hell would these wallies know if there
  was any message (subliminal or otherwise) in JPs music.  This is probably
  the first time in their misbegotten lives that they have ever, deliberately,
  listened to any HM at all.


GAZ
     
    	
    

    
    The other amazing thing about this case is the kid that did not succeed
    in killing himself the first time did it three years later.  Subliminal
    messages can stick in someone's head for 3 years!!??!?!?!!?
    
    Renee

From: [email protected] (CY RYAN)
Newsgroups: clari.news.music,clari.news.issues
Subject: Judge indicates he has questions about claim against Judas Priest

	RENO, Nev. (UPI) -- A district judge gave his first sign Friday he
had doubts about a suit accusing Judas Priest of cleverly hiding
subliminal messages on a record that prompted the suicide pact between
two young men.
	District Judge Jerry Whitehead sat through repeated playing of the
record ``Stained Class'' Thursday with a poker face -- not giving any
indication whether he heard the so-called ``Do it'' message, said to be
concealed by drum beats.
	William Nickloff Jr., the self taught engineer who says he has
uncovered the camouflaged messages, testified Friday the phrases were
``cleverly disguised'' and it took him ``hundreds of hours'' listening
to the record to convince him they were the words ``Do It.''
	Nickloff said he was not able to examine the original of the
24-track record but he had access to a backup of the original from CBS
Records. As he listened to each track, he never heard any sounds of ``Do
it.'' But he said when he combined 7-8 tracks, the ``Do it'' words came
through. They are masked under a drum beat, he said.
	Judge Whitehead asked Nickloff if, in 1978 when the record was
made, if there were people looking for these subliminal messages.
Nickloff said he did not think so. Then Whitehead wanted to know why
Judas Priest and others ``would go to so much trouble'' to hide the
messages.
	Nickloff replied, ``I don't know.''
	Gail Edwin, attorney for CBS Records, said the questions of the
judge ``were telling.'' She noted he sat through the record playing
Thursday ``expressionless.'' She indicated she thought the question was
a good sign.
	She said the whole case against CBS and Judas Priest is built on
the theory of a mass conspiracy involving the band, engineers, producers
and CBS, a separate company in England and the one in the United States.
	Parents of Raymond Belknap and James Vance are suing on grounds the
subliminal messages on the record ``Stained Class'' prompted them to
shoot themselves with a shotgun in December 1985 after smoking
marijuana, drinking beer and listening to the music for several hours.
Belknap, than 18, died instantly and Vance, than 20, died three years
later.
	The trial completed its first week Friday and Nickloff has been the
key witness, saying by his method of ``reverse engineering'' he has been
able to bring out the hidden messages. 
	Under cross-examination Friday, Nickloff of Sacramento, Calif.,
agreed that the so-called ``Do its'' appear in the same place where the
singer on the record is exhaling. But he maintained these were the
places where the ``punched in'' subliminals were placed.
	Judas Priest members say these so called ``Do its'' are the breath
sounds of the the singer. 
	There was wide disagreement among those in the courtroom Thursday
after the repeated playing of the record ``Better By You, Better Than
Me,'' whether those present could make out any subliminal messages. The
records were played forwards, backwards, speeded up and with loud and
soft.
	Attorneys for the parents say these messages are not supposed to be
heard but invade the subconscious and trigger the behavior.
	The trial continues Monday.

From: [email protected] (CY RYAN)
Newsgroups: clari.news.music,clari.news.law.civil,clari.news.issues,clari.news.top
Subject: Judge questions motive for subliminal messages

	RENO, Nev. (UPI) -- A judge Friday questioned what possible motive
the heavy metal band Judas Priest would have for putting subliminal
messages on an album blamed for driving two young men to suicide.
	District Judge Jerry Whitehead, who earlier sat through repeated
playings of the album ``Stained Class'' with a poker face, raised
questions Friday about therecord's so-called ``do it'' subliminal
message.
	Whitehead, who is hearing the trial without a jury, asked audio
engineer William Nickloff Jr. if there were people looking for
subliminal messages in 1978 when the record was made. Nickloff responded
he did not think so. Whitehead then asked why Judas Priest and others
``would go to so much trouble'' to hide the messages. Nickloff replied,
``I don't know.''
	Nickloff, a self-taught engineer, was hired by the families of the
two young men suing the band and others involved in making the record.
	Nickloff testified the phrases were ``cleverly disguised'' and it
took him ``hundreds of hours'' listening to the record to convince him
they were the words ``do it.''
	Nickloff said he was not able to examine the original of the
24-track record but he had access to a backup of the original from CBS
Records. Listening to the tracks individually, he said he did not hear
the words ``do it.'' But he said when he combined 7-8 tracks, the ``do
it'' phrase came through. They are masked under a drum beat, he said.
	Gail Edwin, attorney for CBS Records, said Whitehead's questions
``were telling.'' She noted he sat through the record playing Thursday
``expressionless.''
	Edwin said the whole case against CBS and Judas Priest is built on
the theory of a mass conspiracy involving the band, engineers, producers
and CBS, a separate company in England and the one in the United States.
	Parents of Raymond Belknap and James Vance claim the subliminal
messages prompted the youths to shoot themselves with a shotgun in
December 1985 after smoking marijuana, drinking beer and listening to
the music for several hours. Belknap, than 18, died instantly and Vance,
than 20, died three years later.
	Under cross-examination Friday, Nickloff of Sacramento, Calif.,
agreed that the subliminal phrases appear in the same place where the
singer on the record is exhaling. But he maintained these were the
places where the ``punched in'' messages were placed.
	Judas Priest members say the so-called ``do it'' messages are
simply the breath sounds of the the singer. 
	There was wide disagreement among those in the courtroom Thursday
after the repeated playing of the record ``Better By You, Better Than
Me,'' whether those present could make out any subliminal messages. The
records were played forwards, backwards, speeded up and with loud and
soft.
	In at least three previous cases -- in California, Georgia and New
Jersey -- fans of heavy metal have killed themselves after listening to
the album ``Suicide Solution'' by the rock singer Ozzy Ozbourne, another
artist who has recorded for CBS.
	The California case was dismissed before coming to trial when a
court ruled that song lyrics were protected by the free speech
provisions of the First Amendment. The Georgia case is pending, and
heavy metal is no longer a factor in the New Jersey case.
	In the Judas Priest case, however, lawyers for the plaintiffs argue
that the young men were driven to shoot themselves by the alleged
subliminal messages. Although he has yet to decide whether the
recordings contain such material, Judge Jerry Carr Whitehead has ruled
that such subliminal messages were not a form of speech and therefore
were not covered by First Amendment protections.

    I was just wondering how did the second kid die three years later?
    I haven't seen any news on the trial recently, but when I saw it
    discussed on a show last year, the way I understood it, he couldn't
    hold on any longer with half his face missing.
    
    I don't think Judas Priest have too much to worry about.  I don't
    see how that judge can rule against them!  The whole idea of it
    is ridiculous!
    
    � Ken �
    

    
    	The second kid died of either an OD or complications from
    	the shooting ... I forgot which one.
    
    							GTI
    

    
    The second kid died of drug and booze OD.
    
    

    re: ...from .110

> 	There was wide disagreement among those in the courtroom Thursday
> after the repeated playing of the record ``Better By You, Better Than
> Me,'' whether those present could make out any subliminal messages. The
> records were played forwards, backwards, speeded up and with loud and
> soft.

    Gee, you'd think if there *were* any subliminal messages there that
    that poor group of people would have gotten them by now.  Have any of
    the jurors pumped themselves off?  If so, do their families have a case
    against the people bringing this to court for exposing them to these
    dangerous subliminal messages?

    I also find it pretty humorous that these people are spending all this
    time looking for a message that says "Do it".  These two words are
    repeated ENDLESSLY in MANY songs, even if they were there, why would
    someone think they were intended to persuade someone to kill
    themselves?  It seems to me that this phrase is usually used as a
    sexual  connotation these days and maybe even more so in the late 70s
    when "Stained Class" was recorded.  What a senseless approach! 
    Couldn't they find anything worse then that to think they heard?

>	In at least three previous cases -- in California, Georgia and New
> Jersey -- fans of heavy metal have killed themselves after listening to
> the album ``Suicide Solution'' by the rock singer Ozzy Ozbourne, another
> artist who has recorded for CBS.

    Clearly this press organization is WELL informed.  The album is not
    called Suicide Solution, that's the name of one song.  I also can't
    believe that any intelligent person could believe that a song that has
    lyrics that basically say "Suicide isn't a solution" could motivate
    someone to off themselves.  I've listened carefully to the words of
    that song and it's not encouraging suicide, it's really down on it.  

    If Ozzy was so big on suicide, why is it that he's still living today,
    almost 10 years after that song was recorded?

    gh

    -1:
    
    Good points-  All of them!!!!
    
    � Ken �
    

    
    	And the biggie ... if a courtroom full of people can't hear
    	the words on a BACKUP OF THE MASTER, how could 2 teenagers
    	hear them on a worn-out record that's supposedly been played
    	a bazillion times?
    
    							GTI
    

	Yep, its gettin dafter and dafter..



GAZ

    
    That's because you have to want to hear it.  Like with the commercial
    where the dog is talking...if you don't believ in it, it'll just
    sound like him growling.
    
    FLip

    
    They did want to here it though!  They were trying as hard as possible
    to hear what they were saying and even mummy couldn't say she heard it.
    
    Sometimes I feel that baby boomers are a bunch of hypocritcal sh*ts!
    
    F.

    well, being 34 yrs old, I'd have to say most everybody is.

From: [email protected] (CY RYAN)
Newsgroups: clari.news.music,clari.news.issues
Subject: Behavorial expert says subliminal messages never prompted suicide pact in Judas Priest trial

	RENO, Nev. (UPI) -- Subliminal messages, if there were any on an
album of the rock group Judas Priest, couldn't trigger a suicide pact by
two young men in 1985, a behavior expert testified Monday.
	Dr. Donald Lunde, a clinical professor of psychiatry and behavioral
sciences at Stanford, said, ``Suicide is not a decision made by the
subconscious mind.'' His testimony came at the opening of the second
week of the trial in which Judas Priest and CBS Records are accused of
hiding messages on an album that prompted Raymond Belknap and James
Vance to shoot themselves after drinking beer, smoking marijuana and
listening to the ``Stained Class'' album for several hours.
	Lunde, hired by the attorneys for Judas Priest and CBS Records,
said his research shows that emotional crisises ``tipped the balance
into action'' for Belknap, then 18 and Vance, than 20, to shoot
themselves with a shotgun. Belknap died instantly and Vance died three
years later of complications from the wounds that blew away his face and
the prescription drugs.
	Lunde said the ``fatal combination was they seemed to encourage
each other,'' into the suicide effort, rather than one trying to talk
the other out of it. He said that was the ``unusual thing'' about this
case.
	Parents of the two young men claimed that subliminal messages of
``Do it, Do it,'' on the album sent the two young men over the edge.
Judas Priest and CBS Records both deny there were any hidden messages on
the record.
	Vivian Lynch, attorney the parents of Vance, said Lunde's testimony
does not mean anything since he is not an expert in subliminal messages.
Lynch and her co-counsel will put their expert Dr. Howard Shevrin on the
stand later this week.
	Lunde, under cross examination by Lynch, admitted there was a lot 
psychiatrists didn't know about the mind and how it functions.
	But he said it was impossible for the subconscious to decipher a
backward message on a record. He said a person will hear and perceive a
louder sound.
	``A low sound will not be heard and will not affect behavior,''
said Lunde who has testified in such trials as those involving Patty
Hearst, the Hillside Strangler and Larry Layton in the Jonestown
massacre.
	Attorneys for the families have presented testimony that the ``Do
it, Do it'' message was masked under a drum beat on the record. They
also contend that the lyrics played backwards has such sayings as ``F---
the Lord.'' These messages invaded the subconscious of the young men,
say the lawyers, and touched off the suicide pact.
	Lunde said his research of the case shows that Belknap had lost his
job and Vance had a confrontation with his mother shortly before they
shot themselves. These are the emotional crisises, said Lunde that
triggered the action.
	The two men, he said, had the high risk factors that make for a
greater liklihood of suicide. These include difficulities in school,
with the law, with parents and the use of alcohol and drugs. 
	In talking about the subliminal phrases, Lunde said there were no
studies that showed audio messages could change a person's behavior.
There has been research, he said, on subliminal messages flashed on the
screens of movies or television.

From: [email protected] (CY RYAN)
Newsgroups: clari.news.music,clari.news.law.civil,clari.news.issues,clari.news.top
Subject: Expert: Subliminal messages cannot prompt suicide

	RENO, Nev. (UPI) -- Emotional crises and not subliminal messages
allegedly slipped into an album by the heavy metal group Judas Priest
caused two young men to kill themselves, a behavioral expert testified
at a trial that could force record companies to screen lyrics or face
stiff damages.
	``Suicide is not a decision made by the subconscious mind,'' the
portion of the mind that is targeted by subliminal messages, Dr. Donald
Lunde testified Monday in U.S. District Court in the trial of a product
liability suit.
	Judas Priest and CBS Records are accused of causing the suicides of
Raymond Belknap and James Vance, who shot themselves with a shotgun in
1985 after drinking beer, smoking marijuana and listening to the group's
``Stained Class'' album for several hours.
	Lunde, a clinical professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences
at Stanford University who was hired by the defendants as an expert
witness, said his research shows that emotional crises ``tipped the
balance'' and prompted Belknap, 18, and Vance, 20, to shoot themselves.
	Belknap was killed instantly and Vance died three years later of
complications from the shot that blew away his face.
	The young men's parents argue that the words ``Do it, do it,''
masked under a drum beat on the album, invaded the subconscious of the
young men and led to their suicide pact. They also contend that the
record played backwards includes such phrases as ``F--- the Lord.''
	Judas Priest and CBS Records deny there are any hidden messages on
the record.
	U.S. District Judge Jerry Carr Whitehead has ruled that subliminal
messages are not a form of speech and therefore are not covered by First
Amendment free speech protections. But he has not ruled whether the
Judas Priest album contains such material.
	A verdict for the parents could force record companies to screen
lyrics or face the possibility of having to pay huge punitive damages in
similar cases.
	There have been at least three previous cases in which suicides
have been blamed on the album ``Suicide Solution'' by the rock singer
Ozzy Ozbourne, another performer who has recorded for CBS.
	A case in California was dismissed when a court ruled that song
lyrics were protected by the First Amendment. The case in Georgia is
still pending, and heavy metal is no longer a factor in the New Jersey
case.
	Vivian Lynch, a lawyer for Vance's parents, said outside court that
Lunde's testimony is meaningless because he is not an expert in
subliminal messages. The plaintiffs are expected to call their own
expert witness later this week.
	Under cross-examination, Lunde conceded there is much that
psychiatrists do not know about the mind and how it functions, but he
said it was impossible for the subconscious to decipher a message played
backwards on a record or a masked sound.
	``A low sound will not be heard and will not affect behavior,''
Lunde said.
	Lunde said he has discovered that Belknap had lost his job and
Vance had a confrontation with his mother shortly before they shot
themselves. Those emotional crises triggered the suicides, he testified.
	The two men, he said, were high risks for suicide because they had
troubles with school, the law, their parents and used alcohol and drugs.
	Lunde said the ``fatal combination was that they seemed to
encourage each other'' into suicide, rather than trying to talk each
other out of it. He said that was the ``unusual thing'' about this case.

From: [email protected] (CY RYAN)
Newsgroups: clari.news.music,clari.news.law.civil,clari.news.issues
Subject: Expert testifies subliminal messages triggered suicide

	RENO, Nev. (UPI) -- Subliminal messages allegedly recorded on an
album by the heavy-metal rock group Judas Priest ``played a contributing
role'' in the suicides of two young men, an expert in subliminal
messages testified Tuesday.
	Howard Shevrin, a professor of psychology at the University of
Michigan said the phase ``Do it,'' allegedly hidden on the group's
``Stained Class'' album was responsible in part for the deaths of
Raymond Belknap and James Vance. The two shot themselves in 1985 after
listening to the songs for several hours while drinking beer and smoking
marijuana.
	Shevrin, who said he has been researching ``subliminal perception''
since 1956, said messages appealing to the subconcious mind can prompt
``compulsive reactions'' in people.
	Shevrin was a key witness in the district court trial in which the
parents of Belknap and Vance claim subliminal messages were mainly
responsible for their deaths.
	On Dec. 23, 1985, Belknap, 18, died instantly after shooting
himself with a shotgun. Vance, then 20, blew away his face but lived for
three years before dying of complications from the wounds and the
prescription drugs.
	The parents of the two young men argue that the words ``Do it, do
it,'' masked under a drum beat on the album, invaded the subconscious of
the young men and led to their suicide pact. They also contend that the
record played backwards includes such sayings as ``F--- the Lord.''
	Judas Priest and CBS Records both deny there were any hidden
messages on the record.
	Shevrin's testimony ran contrary to that of Dr. Donald Lunde, a
clinical professor of psychiatrist and behavorial sciences at Stanford,
who told District Judge Jerry Whitehead Monday a subliminal message
would not trigger suicide. Lunde said the high risk factors in the
background of the two troubled youths were the reasons for the suicide
attempts.
	Shevrin said the ``inner conflicts'' of the two young men, the
lyrics on the records and the subliminal message all contributed to the
tragic event. He testified that if one of those ingredients had been
missing, there probably would not have been a suicide.
	He said the victims exhibited ``violent destructive behavior'' and
had conflicts with girlfriends, families and others. They became like
brothers, using drugs and alcohol and turned to the heavy metal music
``as a source of support and strength.''
	Shevrin said he based his conclusions on the subliminal messages on
the pretrial testimony of William Nickloff, a sound engineer who said he
was able to decipher the words ``Do it'' in at least seven places on the
album.
	Attorneys for the family say their case may be complete by early
next week. They have not yet revealed how much money they are seeking
but the medical  bills for Vance were in excess of $400,000.
	A verdict for the parents could force record companies to screen
lyrics or face the possibility of having to pay huge punitive damages in
similar cases.
	There have been at least three previous cases -- in California,
Georgia and New Jersey -- in which suicides have been blamed on the album
``Suicide Solution'' by the rock singer Ozzy Ozbourne, another performer
who has recorded for CBS.
	The California case was dismissed when a court ruled that song
lyrics were protected by the free speech provisions of the First
Amendment. The Georgia case is still pending, and heavy metal is no
longer a factor in the New Jersey case.
	In the Judas Priest case, Whitehead has ruled that subliminal
messages are not a form of speech and therefore are not covered by First
Amendment protections. But he has not ruled whether the Judas Priest
album contains such material.

From: [email protected] (CY RYAN)
Newsgroups: clari.news.music,clari.news.law.civil,clari.news.issues,clari.news.top
Subject: Subliminal rock messages triggered suicides, expert says

	RENO, Nev. (UPI) -- An expert in subliminal perception testified
that hidden messages of ``Do it, do it'' allegedly inserted on an album
by the heavy metal rock group Judas Priest helped trigger the suicides
of two young men.
	Howard Shevrin, a professor of psychology at the University of
Michigan, was a key witness Tuesday in the trial of a product liability
suit against Judas Priest and CBS Records in which the parents of the
young men claim subliminal messages were mainly responsible for their
deaths.
	Shevrin said the phrase ``Do it,'' allegedly hidden beneath drum
beats on the  ``Stained Class'' album was responsible in part for the
deaths of Raymond Belknap and James Vance, who shot themselves in 1985
after listening to the songs for several hours while drinking beer and
smoking marijuana.
	Shevrin, who said he has been researching subliminal perception
since 1956 and was called by the parents as an expert witness, said
messages appealing to the subconscious mind can prompt ``compulsive
reactions.''
	On Dec. 23, 1985, Belknap, 18, shot himself with a shotgun and died
instantly. Vance, 20, blew away his face, but lived for three years
before dying of complications from the wounds and the drugs he was being
prescribed.
	Their parents argue that the inaudible messages invaded their
subconscious and led to the suicide pact. They also contend that the
record played backwards includes such sayings as ``F--- the Lord.''
	Judas Priest and CBS Records deny there were any hidden messages on
the record.
	As expected, Shevrin's testimony ran contrary to that of Dr. Donald
Lunde, a Stanford University psychiatry professor called as the
defendants' expert. Lunde told the court of state District Judge Jerry
Whitehead that a subliminal message would not trigger suicide. In
testimony Monday, Lunde said the youths were at high risk for suicide
because of their drug use, drinking, and troubles with parents, school
and the law.
	But Shevrin said the ``inner conflicts'' of the two young men, the
Judas Priest lyrics and the subliminal message all contributed to the
suicides, and that if one of those ingredients had been missing, the
shootings probably would not have occurred.
	He said the victims exhibited ``violent destructive behavior'' and
had conflicts with girlfriends, families and others. They became like
brothers, using drugs and alcohol and turned to the heavy metal music
``as a source of support and strength.''
	Shevrin said he based his conclusions on the subliminal messages on
the pretrial testimony of William Nickloff, a sound engineer who said he
was able to decipher the words ``Do it'' in at least seven places on the
album.
	There have been at least three similar cases -- in California,
Georgia and New Jersey -- in which suicides have been blamed on the album
``Suicide Solution'' by rock singer Ozzy Ozbourne.
	The California case was dismissed when a court ruled that song
lyrics were protected by the First Amendment guarantees of free speech.
The Georgia case is still pending, and heavy metal music has been
removed as a factor in the New Jersey case.
	Judge Whitehead has ruled that subliminal messages are not a form
of speech and therefore are not covered by First Amendment protections,
but he has not ruled whether the Judas Priest album contains such
material.
	The families have not said how much money they are seeking, but the
medical  bills for Vance exceeded $400,000.
	A verdict in favor of the parents could force record companies to
screen lyrics or face the possibility of having to pay huge punitive
damages in similar cases.

From: [email protected] (CY RYAN)
Newsgroups: clari.news.music,clari.news.law.civil,clari.news.issues
Subject: Psychiatrist: man believed music responsible for suicide attempt

	RENO, Nev. (UPI) -- A young man who entered into a suicide pact
after listening to hours of the albums of the rock group Judas Priest
believed the music influenced his actions, a psychiatrist testified
Friday.
	Dr. Bruce Tanenbaum said that James Vance ``didn't care if he ever
got a dime from the law suit'' against Judas Priest and CBS Records.
Vance, who survived for three years after blowing away his face, ``felt
other people needed to be aware of the dangers'' of the music, said
Tanenbaum as the trial ended its second week.
	Vance, who was than 20, and his friend Raymond Belknap, then 18,
took a shotgun after listening to hours of the record ``Stained Class'',
drinking beer and smoking marijuana on Dec. 23, 1985. Belknap shot
himself and died instantly. Vance shot himself, but survived until he
died from complications of the wounds and prescription drugs in November
1988.
	The families claim subliminal messages on the record telling the
young men ``Do it'' are responsible for the suicide. They are seeking
damages which have not yet been specified except for the more than
$400,000 in medical bills for Vance.
	Tanenbaum said he treated Vance's mental problems after the
incident. Vance, according to the psychiatrist, was ``not in a suicide
zone'' the day of the shooting.
	He said there was nothing, outside the music, driving him to
suicide. ``I cannot see any other event that would have led James to
suicide,'' said Tanenbaum.
	On that day, Tanenbaum said the two ``were celebrating,'' with
Christmas just around the corner. ``They were listening to music,
drinking beer and smoking marijuana which is typical of adolescents,''
he said.
	``I don't see any stress or circumstances to push him to be
suicidal,'' said Tanenbaum, talking about that December day.
	Attorneys for the families are expected to complete their case next
week. They have not given any indication whether they will call the four
members of the band who cut the record in 1978. The band has denied
there were any subliminal messages hidden on the record.
	District Judge Jerry Whitehead, who is hearing the case without a
jury, has ruled that the music and the words on the album are protected
from liability by the First Amendment of free speech. But he has ruled
that subliminal messages, if there are any, can be a target for damages.
	Attorneys for the family have presented a biologist-turned-sound
engineer to testify that after hundreds of hours of listening to the
record, he uncovered the words ``Do it'' at least seven times. William
Nickloff Jr., testified these phrases were masked by drum beats. 
	But Nickloff, when he listened to each of the 24 tracks of the
album, never was able to hear any voice giving this command. It was only
when he meshed some of the sound tracks that the message was able to be
deciphered, he said.
	Vance, in his pre-trial deposition before he died, never said he
heard the ``Do it'' commands.

    
    	Well we have:
    
    	2 kids who heard backwards messages while listening to a
    	record forwards.  They also heard "Do it" masked behind a
    	drum beat on a record that's been played a hundred times.
    	We have a biologist (??) who's suddenly an expert in sound
    	engineering testifying that he hears the "Do it".
    
    	Yeah, right.
    
    
    	In a way, you do have to feel bad for the parents.  Here's
    	these 2 teens who commit suicide, but the second one lived
    	for 3 years and rang up $400K in medical bills.  But, if
    	Judas Priest decides to plead "Guilty" to the charge then
    	they'll set s precedent (of sorts) that can be used in all
    	future cases which are similar to this.
    
    							GTI
    

    Yeah, and he had to mesh a few select soundtracks out of 24 in order
    to be able to hear it!  I'm sure Judas Priest would go through the
    tremendous trouble of having to analyze the words "do it" and seperate the
    frequencies in such a way that they could finds sounds that when
    added together said "do it"  
    
    � Ken �
    

    
    Some day,someone is going to kill themselves after listening to New
    Kids On The Block and no one will blame them.
    
    
    
                               DEEBS

Sorry, but I have to vent my feelings. If you're not interested in the news
or my feelings please pass on to another reply or note. What follows is very 
personal, written with great sadness and anger.

We've had two young people who (for whatever reason) have blown their
lives away. That saddens me greatly.

What really gets up my nose is the total rejection of any solution other
than heavy meal as the cause for this. Backing up this blindness is a bunch
of people who belive anything other than hymns, psalms, etc are evil.
Unfortunatley these people have large financial clout (and let's face it,
that's all that matters these days in the Establishment and Legal Worlds).

The worst thing is that one of the poor unfortunates was left to slowly die
over three years. In that time he may have had all sorts of ideas stuffed in
his head without any real help. In my (personal) experience, someone has tried to top
themsleves they need a lot of sympathy, understanding, time, and HELP to
sort out why they reached that point. 

All I see so far about this case is that
a snap decision by parties who'd rather not admit any guilt, reponsibility,
or what ever have seized on something that they all dislike and are able
to waste a lot of time money and resource chasing the elusive butterfly. 
Money, for instance, that could be better used trying to help out the
starving and homeless in this world (who Rockers have done most over the
last few years to help -- Rock Aid to Armenia, Band Aid, etc).

From: [email protected] (CY RYAN)
Newsgroups: clari.news.music
Subject: Computer scientists testifies about subliminal message on Judas Priest album

	RENO, Nev. (UPI) -- Subliminal messages such as ``Try Suicide'' are
on an album by the British heavy metal band Judas Priest, a computer
scientist testified Monday.
	Victoria Evans, a mathematics and computer science professor at the
University of Nevada, Reno, said she also found the hidden message of
``Do it,'' on the album. She was the final witness for two families
suing the rock group and CBS Records, charging that concealed messages
prompted the suicide of two young men in 1985.
	Evans who used a computer to decipher the phrases said the ``Try
Suicide'' is on the record ``Heroes End'' and can be heard when played
backwards. She said there was also the words ``It's dead,'' when the
recording is played in reverse.
	These messages, according to attorneys for the families of Raymond
Belknap and James Vance, invaded the subconscious prompting the two boys
to shoot themselves after listening to hours of Judas Priest music,
drinking beer and smoking marijuana on Dec. 23, 1985. Belknap, then 18,
died instantly. Vance blew away his face and lived for three years
before dying of complications of the injury and prescription drugs.
	The family lawyers completed their case at the beginning of the
third week. Suellen Fulstone, attorney for Judas Priest, said band
members would testify later this week, possibily as early as Tuesday.
	The group has denied any hidden messages were put on the ``Stained
Class'' album produced in 1978.
	Evans told District Judge Jerry Whitehead she was hired in May to
go through the records to see if she could uncover any subliminal
message. Her statements were to back up William Nickloff, a sound
engineer from Sacramento, Calif., who testified earlier that he had
found the hidden messages.
	Whitehead is hearing the case without a jury. He has ruled that the
lyrics are protected by the free speech constitutional amendment. But he
has ruled that subliminal messages do not have this protection and
damages can be awarded.
	In the song, ``Better than You, Better by Me,'' Evans said she
found the phrase ``Do it'' hidden in several places. 
	The crux of the case of the families is that these subliminal
messages pushed the two troubled youths into the suicide pact.
	Susan Rusk, a high school counselor, testified she had talked with
Vance after the shooting. She said Vance told her the two had started
talking about suicide while listening to the record and they both
started saying the phrase ``Just do it.''
	Vance, in a pre-trial deposition before his death, said he never
heard the phrase ``Do it'' on the record. He also did not mention that
the two men had said anything like ``Do it.''

    A comment and a question about this trial:
    
    First of all, it should be noted that this is a jury-less trial.  The
    judge made the decision on this configuration.
    
    Secondly, does anyone believe a supernatural force could be responsible
    for these messages?  Of course, if you don't believe in the
    supernatural you need not answer, we already know your answer.
    
    Personally, I think it is possible, but have no idea if it applies
    here in this trial.  To have messages only show up in 2 of 24 tracks is
    amazing.  This would be way too tedious and complex for the band to do
    this themselves and make sure it is hidden in the music or the
    exhalation of a vocalist.  The album sure wouldn't have made the 1978
    release date! ;-)
    
    Mike

    
    	And another thing:
    
    	Why does "Do it" mean "commit suicide"?  It could have any
    	number of meanings, like "Go shopping" or "Kiss your mother",
    	but I guess it means "Commit suicide" in this case.
    
    	????
    
    
    	RE: Mike
    
    	Keeping an open mind, I guess it could have been "supernatural"
    	in nature.  But if it is, the parents are suing the wrong person
    	(or whatever).  Sue the devil!!
    
    	[I'm not mocking you, I'm just trying to add some more nonsense
    	to this mess.]
    
    							GTI
    

    re:1
    
    or the "DO IT", might have been a hidden advertisement for NIKE!
    
    Tony
    

From: [email protected] (CY RYAN)
Newsgroups: clari.news.music,clari.news.law.crime.trial,clari.news.economy,clari.news.top
Subject: Judas Priest vocalist denies hidden messages on album linked to suicied

	RENO, Nev. (UPI) -- The vocalist for the British heavy metal rock
group Judas Priest testified Tuesday there were no messages hidden on a
record album blamed for driving two young men to suicide in 1985.
	But under cross-examination, Rob Halford acknowledged that he
included a message, recorded backwards, on a different album as an
artistic experiment.
	Halford, the first member of the group to testify in the trial, in
its third week, told state District Judge Jerry Whitehead he never
deliberately slurred words so reverse recordings could produce concealed
messages such as ``try suicide.''
	The parents of Raymond Belknap and James Vance sued Judas Priest
and CBS Records claiming subliminal messages on the record ``Stained
Class'' pushed the two young men into a suicide pact after they listened
to the music for several hours, drinking beer and smoking marijuana.
	The parents claim the record contains subliminal messages and other
phrases that can only be heard when the record is played backward.
	They said the words ``do it'' are concealed on the record on the
song ``Better by You, Better than Me.'' But Halford said the so-called
subliminal message was simply the exhalation of his breath and the
guitar playing into loud speaker.
	To prove his point, Halford belted out a phrase of the song in the
courtroom, singing the lyrics: ``Better by me, better than you. You can
tell her what I want it to be.'' He said the exhalations demonstrated in
the courtroom was the same he uses when performing.
	Halford, dressed in a grey suit with a black shirt, was asked by
Whitehead if he had put in any words that could produce messages when
the record was played backwards. He also asked the singer if he had
deliberately slurred the words so a backward playing of the album could
produce those messages.
	``I did not,'' Halford said to both questions.
	But under cross-examination by plaintiffs' attorney Kenneth
McKenna, Halford acknowledged that he intentionally placed a reversed
message on a song called ``Love Bites'' during the mid-1980s.
	He testified that he recorded the words ``in the dead of the night,
love bites,'' then inserted it in reverse on the album. When it was
played forward, Halford said, the listener heard garble. But if the
record was played backwards, the words could be heard.
	Asked by the judge why he did it, Halford said he wanted to try new
ideas, new sounds. He compared it to an artist who ``adds another piece
of paint to the picture.''
	He said no one ever suggested to him that inserting such a message
would enhance a record's commercial value.
	Halford, who joined Judas Priest in 1971, said the group did not
become stars until 1980. He detailed the bands rise through appearance
before small groups to international music festivals.
	On Dec. 23, 1985, Belknap and Vance took a shotgun and went to a
playground. Belknap, then 18, put the gun under his throat and said, ``I
sure f---ed up my life,'' and pulled the trigger. He died instantly.
Vance, then 20, shot himself but only blew away the lower portion of his
face. He lived for three more years before dying of complications of the
wounds and prescription drugs.
	Halford, 39, testified the group was involved in every step of the
record making. He said he doubted anybody could have inserted any
subliminal messages without the knowledge of the band.
	In at least three previous cases, heavy metal fans have killed
themselves after listening to the album ``Suicide Solution'' by the rock
singer Ozzy Ozbourne, who also has recorded for CBS.
	One suit was dismissed before trial when a court ruled that song
lyrics are protected by the First Amendment. A second is still pending,
and heavy metal is no longer a factor in the third.

    
    	Even if Rob did record "In the dead of night, love bites"
    	backwards on the song "Love Bites", it wouldn't matter ...
    	because those words appear forwards in that song anyways.
    
    	Of course, now the prosecution will claim that they had made
    	a mistake and they had cited the wrong album ... and they
    	will hire some more idiots to testify that the "Defenders
    	of the Faith" album incorporates backwards messages.
    
    							GTI
    

    
    
    BUT,
    
    In the end of the song "Love Bites" it is *obvious* there is a backward
    message!!  It is not hidden, you can hear it plain as day..
    
    F.

    
    -1
    
    Yup. It's garbled. Just like the beginning of Still Life by Iron
    Maiden.
    
    
                                  DEEBS

     JP are not the first band to put backwards messages on an album. The
    Beatle did it, as I am sure everybody knows, in Revolution #9 and ELO
    did it on the album Face the Music. So why is the court making such a
    big deal over it. It seem that if this was something that shouldn't be
    done that it would have been stopped long ago. Then again I guess
    nobody has sued a band for something like that huh.
    							The KER
    

    Re: -1
    
    Not only that, but the FCC has determined such stuff is illegal since
    they claim it has an influential effect on humans.  Subliminal messages
    in media (i.e., movies) and background music in stores have been
    outlawed.
    
    Mike

    re: -1
    
    I don't think it's even been proven that words played backwards have a
    subliminal effect.  Played forward, a low volumes, they do and quick
    glimpses of visual images do.
    
    I don't think anyone is denying that subliminal messages exist,
    otherwise you wouldn't see those "Stop Smoking" subliminal cassettes in
    about every bookstore you go in,  however there is lots of debate as to
    how effective subliminal messages are and what forms they can take.
    
    Also, subliminal messages are NOT illegal (remember the tapes in the
    bookstore), it's just illegal to use them on someone that's not aware
    of it.
    
    gh

    
    
    I use subliminal tapes on a regular basis..  I think they do work, but
    its a lot more complex than someone saying - quit smoking... quit
    smoking... quit smoking...
    
    At least my experiences with them its much more detailed with creating
    visual images, going into a hypnotic state.. AND if you sat and
    listened to this and said this isn't going to work, it wouldn't..
    
    A kid hearing the word Do It should not affect their subconsious to
    that point!!  Thats ridiculous!!
    
    F.

Newsgroups: clari.news.music
Subject: Suicide expert testifies in Judas Priest trial that one of two young
men never intended suicide              
    
By CY RYAN                              
	RENO, Nev. (UPI) -- One of two young men who entered into a suicide
pact after listening to hours of a Judas Priest record, never took the
agreement seriously, a suicide behavior expert testified Thursday.
	James Mikawa, director of the psychological service center at the
University of Nevada, Reno said his ``psychological autopsy'' concluded
that Raymond Belknap was suicidal but James Vance was not on Dec. 23,
1985.
	Mikawa, a director of the Suicide Crisis Center in Reno for seven
years , said Vance was surprised when Belknap shot himself.
	Vance, said Mikawa, felt he would be charged with the killing of
Belknap. The clinical psychologists said Vance then shot himself in a
way he would not be killed. ``He (Vance) didn't have any intention of
following through,'' he said.
	Belknap, then 18 and Vance, 20, drank beer, smoked marijuana and
listened to the album ``Stained Class'' several hours before they got a
shotgun and ran to a nearby playground from the Vance home.
	Belknap pushed the shotgun up against his chin and said, ``I sure
f----- up my life'' and pulled the trigger, dying instantly. Vance grabbed
the gun and blew away part of his face but lived for three more years
before he died of complications from the wound and prescriptions drugs.
	The families of the two men claim that a subliminal message of ``Do
it'' on the album pushed the two over the edge to the suicide pact.
Judas Priest members have denied there were any concealed messages on
the album.
	The trial, expected to conclude next week, has turned into a battle
between experts on sound and psychologists and psychiatrists. Attorneys
for Judas Priest and CBS Records presented witnesses who testified there
were no subliminal messages and that the reasons for the suicide effort
was a myriad of problems confronting the two men. Family lawyers have
called witnesses to testify there were messages on the records, both
hidden and played backwards and that the final thing to push the two
over the edge was the repeated commands of ``Do it.''
	Mikawa testified he has never come across a case where a subliminal
message caused a suicide.
	In this case, Mikawa said these two men did not confront their
stresses but used and ``escapism'' by listening to heavy rock music and
using drugs and alcohol.
	He said both young men had a variety of past behavioral problems
that contributed to the action, including loss of jobs, family violence
and problems in school.

    
    	I can't believe that this trial has lasted this long...
    
    	Meanwhile, some *real* criminal is out on bail somewhere
    	waiting for a court date...
    
    	unreal...
    

    
    	does anyone know if the kid who survived ever maybe possibly
    	had the nerve to actually SAY what made the other want to do
    	it?  (Provided he was able to do anything like that, of course)
    
    	tigga~~~

>>    Yeah, and he had to mesh a few select soundtracks out of 24 in order
>>    to be able to hear it!  I'm sure Judas Priest would go through the
    
    
      Instead of "in order to bo able to hear it"  Maybe it should be "in
    order to be able to create it".
    
    
    As far as subliminal messages being illegal, I believe it's only when
    the person listening (or watching) is not notified beforehand and they
    are for personal use.  That's why you can listen to those tapes you 
    can get in the stores but theaters can not "flash" advertisements on 
    the screens.    
    
         Chris D.

    
    	If "popcorn" or soda were flashed during a movie, I know I
    	wouldn't jump up and refill my container.  I always get all
    	the junk I want before the movie starts and I DON'T get up
    	until it's over.
    
    	Heck, I'm not going to pay $6 to wait in a line ... unless
    	I'm going to the Registry and then I'll gladly pay $40 or
    	more to stand in line.
    
    	8^)
    
    							GTI
    
    

    Re: -1
    
    ...and you never steal in stores regardless if they play background
    music or not, right? ;-)
    
    Mike

Article 143 of clari.news.music:
From: [email protected] (CY RYAN)
Newsgroups: clari.news.music
Subject: Ruling expected in Judas Priest subliminal trial
Date: 24 Aug 90 07:28:58 GMT
Priority: major


	RENO, Nev. (UPI) -- The record industry, on trial in a landmark
product liability case, could be rocked by a judge's ruling on whether
messages hidden in the heavy metal music of Judas Priest drove two young
men to suicide.
	The office of state District Judge Jerry Carr Whitehead said
Thursday he was ready to issue a ruling in the case Friday. Whitehead
heard from more than 40 witnesses in 17 days of testimony that ended
earlier this month in the non-jury trial.
	The parents of Raymond Belknap and James Vance sued Judas Priest
and CBS Records, claiming subliminal messages on the album ``Stained
Class'' drove the troubled young men to make a suicide pact after
listening to the music for several hours while drinking beer and smoking
marijuana.
	Judas Priest's lead singer, Rob Halford, denied there were any
hidden messages on the album but admitted under cross-examination that
he once recorded a backward messages on another album as an artistic
experiment.
	Whitehead has ruled that such subliminal messages were not a form
of speech and therefore were not covered by First Amendment protections.
	If successful, the product liability lawsuit could have
far-reaching effects of the record industry, forcing companies to screen
lyrics or face the possibility of having to pay huge punitive damages in
similar cases.
	Belknap, 18, and Vance, 20, listened to the Judas Priest album for
hours as they drank and smoked marijuana on Dec. 23, 1985, before
tearing up Belknap's room and taking a sawed-off shotgun to a nearby
playground.
	Belknap put the gun to his throat and pulled the trigger, killing
himself instantly. Vance then shot himself -- blowing away the lower
portion of his face -- but lived three years before dying of
complications from his wounds.
	Lawyers for the parents argued that ``Stained Class'' contains
subliminal messages and other hidden phrases that can only be heard when
the album is played backward. They also maintained that the masked
messages can be unscrambled by the subconscious mind, no matter which
direction the record is played.
	They said the message ``do it'' is concealed in the song ``Better
by You, Better by Me.'' But Halford said the so-called subliminal
message was the exhalation of his breath and a combination of other
studio sounds.
	Halford performed part of the song in court, singing the lyrics,
``Better by me, better than you. You can tell her what I want it to
be.'' He said the exhalations demonstrated in court were the same he
uses when performing.
	In at least three previous cases -- in California, Georgia and New
Jersey -- fans of heavy metal have killed themselves after listening to
the album ``Suicide Solution'' by the rock singer Ozzy Ozbourne, another
artist who has recorded for CBS.
	The California case was dismissed before coming to trial when a
court ruled that song lyrics were protected by the free speech
provisions of the First Amendment. The Georgia case is still pending,
and heavy metal is no longer a factor in the New Jersey case.

    Well, anyone have anything posted from the Usenet(?) about the outcome?
    I heard the outcome on the radio, but would be interested in reading the
    article.
    
    Chris D.

    RE:1
    
    How about posting what you heard on the radio until some
    posts the article from Usnet, 
    
    thanks
    Tony
    
    
    

    
    I saw on the news that Judas Priest were declared innocent.
    
    
    
    
    
                                 DEEBS

    That's all I heard too.
    
    Chris D.

     I heard they were aquitted(sp?). They still or CBS one had to pay
    40,000 dollars for something or other though. I don't remember why it
    was paid. Heard it over the radio.
    						The KER
    

    They had to pay the $40K because they were *so* late bringing the
    master tapes into court.  The judge said that if the tapes had been
    brought into court in a timely manner, that this probably wouldn't have
    gone as far as it did.  The prosecuting lawyer said that this case was
    the first of many, and that it would only be a matter of time before a
    band was found guilty.  I can hardly wait ...
    
    Scary

    
    JP Free ?
    
    Damn! I thought this could have got rid of the plonkers for good !!!

    
|    Damn! I thought this could have got rid of the plonkers for good !!!
        
        Still stirring the $h�t eh, Tony ? :^)
        
        METALord"�

    
    Some things never change mate 8^)

|    Some things never change mate 8^)
        
        Glad to hear it ! :^)
        
        METALord"�

    8^)

    
    The new album from Judas Priest!
    
    
            "Do it"
    
    
    The title track:
    
    
    
     "Do it, but don't tell them I sent you"
    
     "Do it, come on test your aim"
    
     "Do it, your not gonna like it here"
    
     "Do it, the end result is the same"
    
    
    Ect ect ect.....:^)
    
    
    
    
                                  DEEBS

From: [email protected] (CY RYAN)
Newsgroups: clari.news.interest.people,clari.news.lifestyle,clari.news.music,clari.news.top
Subject: Judge rejects subliminal message suit against Judas Priest
Date: 24 Aug 90 20:41:15 GMT
 
 
	RENO, Nev. (UPI) -- A judge rejected a landmark product liability
suit against the heavy metal band Judas Priest, ruling Friday that
messages unintentionally embedded in the band's music did not lead two
young men to commit suicide.
	State District Judge Jerry Whitehead rejected the $6.2 million suit
by the families of Raymond Belknap and James Vance, who claimed a
subliminal message of ``do it'' on the album ``Stained Class'' made the
two shoot themselves in 1985.
	However, the judge awarded $40,000 in sanctions against CBS
Records, which released the album and was sued along with the band, on
grounds it attempted to withhold original master recordings for the
album.
	Whitehead said the families lost the case ``because they failed to
prove that defendants intentionally placed subliminal messages on the
album and that those messages were a cause'' of the suicide pact between
Belknap and Vance.
	The judge said in his 93-page ruling that the ``do it'' message
heard on the song ``Better by You, Better by Me'' was a combination of a
singer exhaling on one track and a guitar playing on another track.
	Whitehead said ``the words `do it' are the result of a chance
combination of sounds: The words were not intentionally formed.''
	The judge said there was ``credible factual support from a lay
witnesss'' that the Belknap and Vance perceived the subliminal message.
But he said other factors prompted the suicide of ``these troubled young
men.''
	For the families to collect money, Whitehead said, they would have
had to show a ``clear, conscious and intentional act'' on the part of
Judas Priest.
	Whitehead listened to 43 witnesses during 19 days of testimony,
which ended Aug. 10.
	If successful, the product liability lawsuit could have had
far-reaching effects of the record industry, forcing companies to screen
lyrics or face the possibility of having to pay huge punitive damages in
similar cases.
	Kenneth McKenna, attorney for the Belknap family, said he was
disappointed with the ruling but predicted, ``This will not be the last
case. There will be others and sooner or later someone will win.''
	But McKenna said he doubted there would be an appeal of Whitehead's
ruling.
	The band's lead singer, Rob Halford, praised the ruling, saying it
was a ``great day for Judas Priest and for all the artists of America.''
	``Artists of all kinds have learned enough in this trial to know
that anything with the word `subliminal' is like playing with a stick of
dynamite,'' Halford said in a telephone interview from Mexico, where he
is on vacation.
	``There are going to be two-bit lawyers waiting in the wings to run
out at any given opportunity to slap a lawsuit on any artist.''
	The parents sued Judas Priest and CBS, claiming the subliminal
messages drove the young men to make a suicide pact after listening to
the music for several hours while drinking beer and smoking marijuana.
	Halford denied there were any hidden messages on the album but
admitted under cross-examination that he once recorded a backward
message on another album as an artistic experiment.
	Belknap, 18, and Vance, 20, listened to the Judas Priest album for
hours as they drank and smoked marijuana on Dec. 23, 1985, before
tearing up Belknap's room and taking a sawed-off shotgun to a nearby
playground.
	Belknap put the gun to his throat and pulled the trigger, killing
himself instantly. Vance then shot himself -- blowing away the lower
portion of his face -- but lived three years before dying of
complications from his wounds.
	Lawyers for the parents argued that ``Stained Class'' contains
subliminal messages and other hidden phrases that can only be heard when
the album is played backward. They also maintained the masked messages
can be unscrambled by the subconscious mind, no matter which direction
the record is played.
	They said the message ``do it'' was concealed in ``Better by You,
Better by Me.'' But Halford maintained the so-called subliminal message
was the exhalation of his breath and a combination of other studio
sounds.
	Halford performed part of the song in court, singing the lyrics,
``Better by me, better than you. You can tell her what I want it to
be.'' He said the exhalations demonstrated in court were the same he
uses when performing.
	In at least three previous cases -- in California, Georgia and New
Jersey -- fans of heavy metal have killed themselves after listening to
the album ``Suicide Solution'' by the rock singer Ozzy Ozbourne, another
artist who has recorded for CBS.
	The California case was dismissed before coming to trial when a
court ruled that song lyrics were protected by the free speech
provisions of the First Amendment. The Georgia case is still pending,
and heavy metal is no longer a factor in the New Jersey case.

From: [email protected] (MARC McFARLAND)
Newsgroups: clari.tw.science,clari.news.music
Subject: `Subliminal message' researcher supports Judas Priest ruling
Date: 24 Aug 90 19:32:55 GMT
 
 
	SEATTLE (UPI) -- A Seattle psychologist whose research concluded
subliminal messages don't influence behavior said Friday he believes the
controversy over so-called ``hidden messages'' will continue, even
though a judge ruled such a message did not persuade two men to commit
suicide.
	``This is a controversial question; there's divided expert
opinion,'' said Anthony Greenwald, a psychology professor at the
University of Washington. ``My reading of the current evidence is an
accurate one, but others may pay more attention to other evidence.''
	A Nevada judge rejected Friday a liability suit against the heavy
metal band Judas Priest, ruling that messages unintentionally contained
in the band's music did not lead Raymond Belknap and James Vance to
commit suicide.
	State District Judge Jerry Whitehead rejected the $6.2 million suit
by the men's families, who claimed a subliminal message of ``do it'' on
the album ``Stained Class'' led the two to shoot themselves in 1985.
	``I certainly can agree scientifically with the judge's conclusion
that the message did not cause the suicides,'' Greenwald said. ``That
seems to be in keeping with my research and in keeping with the other
evidence.
	``I think it's the right verdict.''
	Greenwald and his colleagues recently presented a study at the
American Psychology Association's annual meeting in Boston that
concluded subliminal audio messages did not influence behavior.
	``My position, based on my research and the research of others, is
there is not a scientific basis for the claim that the message that is
alleged to be on the record could have caused a behavior effect, that
is, could have caused these two youths to commit suicide.''
	Greenwald and his colleagues tested commercially available audio
recordings that claimed to improve memory or increase self-esteem by
using subliminal messages that purportedly penetrated the user's
subconscious.
	Using tapes supplied by three different commercial vendors, the
researchers performed three studies involving daily tape use with 237
volunteer subjects in Seattle and Santa Cruz, calif.
	They concluded the subliminal messages did nothing to improve the
subjects' memories.
	The judge ruled there was evidence the two men perceived a
subliminal message, but other factors prompted them to commit suicide.
	Belknap, 18, and Vance, 20, listened to the Judas Priest album for
hours as they drank and smoked marijuana on Dec. 23, 1985, before taking
a sawed-off shotgun to a playground.
	Belknap died instantly when he shot imself in the throat. Vance
then shot himself -- blowing away the lower portion of his face -- but
lived three years before dying of complications from his wounds.

From: [email protected] (United Press International)
Newsgroups: clari.news.interest.people,clari.news.lifestyle,clari.news.music
Subject: Quote of the Day
Date: 25 Aug 90 04:14:30 GMT
 
 
	Rob Halford, lead singer of heavy metal band Judas Priest after a
state judge rejected a landmark product liability suit claiming
subliminal messages in the band's music drove two young men to suicide.
	``Artists of all kinds have learned enough in this trial to know
that anything with the word `subliminal' is like playing with a stick of
dynamite. There are going to be two-bit lawyers waiting in the wings to
run out at any given opportunity to slap a lawsuit on any artist.''

Article 184 of clari.news.music:
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: clari.news.music,clari.news.law.civil,clari.news.issues
Subject: Judas Priest subliminal message case to be appealed
Date: 31 Aug 90 23:39:32 GMT
Priority: regular


	RENO, Nev. (UPI) -- A lawyer says she will appeal a judge's ruling
that subliminal messages in the music of the rock group Judas Priest did
not cause the death of two young men.
	Vivian Lynch, representing the family of James Vance, said District
Judge Jerry Whitehead will be asked to reconsider his ruling and, if
that fails, the appeal will be carried to the Nevada Supreme Court.
	Lynch said Thursday the judge was wrong when he ruled there was
insufficient evidence to show hidden messages caused Vance and Raymond
Belknap to shoot themselves after drinking beer, smoking marijuana and
listening to hours of the Judas Priest record ``Stained Class''.
	Whitehead ruled there was a subliminal message -- ``do it'' -- on the
record caused unintentionally several times by the exhalation of the
singer and a guitar sound but that there was no evidence to show these
prompted the suicide pact.
	Lynch also said the judge was wrong in his ruling on the message.
She said the attorneys had only to prove the messages existed. There was
no requirement, she said to prove they had been intentionally placed on
the record.
	Belknap, 18, and Vance, 20, shot themselves on Dec. 23, 1985.
Belknap died instantly. Vance blew away the lower part of his face and
died three years later of complications from the wound and from
prescription drugs.
	Suellen Fulstone, a lawyer for Judas Priest and CBS Records, said
she was surprised by the announcement of an appeal. But she said she may
file a cross-appeal on the judge's ruling that subliminal messages are
not protected by the constitutional right of free speech.
	The judge said the lyrics are protected by the First Amendment but
not any messages or phrases that are hidden on the record.
	The families had sought $6.2 million in damages.

    
    
    	Gimme a break....how far are they gonna take this?
    
    	Let me guess...this lawyer for the prosecution is running
    	for DA or something right?
    

No he's running for Pope! ;-)

    
    Just for the record,that line goes "Better by *you* better than *me* -
    You can tell her what you want it to be." They had that line reversed.
    
    
    
                                     DEEBS

I was just listening to Stained Class today and I figured while I was at it, I
might as well give a real good hard listen to "Better By You Better Than Me"
and try to see If I could hear those infamous words "do it" even though I've
listened to it a million times before.  And you know what?... I HEARD 'EM!!!!!

Or should I say, I found what the prosecuting attorneys built their case
around.  It's at the end of the song, the second time it slows down and mellows
out.  I was going to type out this elaborate diagram pinpointing exactly where
it is in the lyrics, but it got to be too much trouble, so suffice it to say it
is where the background vocals are going "oooooooooooh" at the same time Rob
says "Bet- ".  It happens a couple of times.  Just the right combination of
lead and background vocals overlapping.

<< Ken >>

    Yeh but what did u do after hearing the "do it" part. Did they want u
    to kill yourself? Make dinner? Hit the doberman across the street with
    tater tots? Sing "Happy Birthday"? "Do it" is a little vague.   

    Well, at first I had this uncontrollable urge to blow my head off,
    but then the song ended, and then I couldn't remember what it was
    I was supposed to DO!  8^)
    
    < Ken >

    Yeah, I was listening to that song the other day too.  I was going to
    go blow my head off, but then I heard those subtle words, "DO it...DO
    it", so I went and had sex instead.
    
    gh