Conference 7.286::sports_91

 This is a classic case of cause followed by effect.   
 
 Assuming for the moment that these things have happened and thus the story
 is actually true, these brain-dead cretins who do these sorts of things
 deserve nothing more or less than a big giant yawn.   The chain between
 their cause and your effect has to be broken with indifference.
 
 They're like obscene phone callers ... they don't call women on the phone
 or play with inflatable dolls in Fenway for their own sexual thrills,
 rather it's done to see how much shock and disgust they can generate
 within those they expose to their actions.
 
 Most everyone knows that the only true solution to an obscene phone caller
 is a simple click of the phone.  Once he hears the dial tone come back in
 his ear, you've won.   Same thing here ... watch the game, go buy a beer,
 rag on the umpire, anything but give the idiots the satisfaction of
 knowing that they've shocked and disgusted you.   End of story.   First
 sign that you're bothered by them and they've won.  Don't let 'em.
 
 I guess you can make a case for getting a bit more upset at this because
 it's in public and children could see it but, to be honest, the lesson I'd
 teach my girls if they saw it and had concerns about what they saw would
 be to emphasize the stupidity and idiocy of their actions rather than try
 to counter any kind of psychosexual dominant object-oriented abuse damage
 potential.
 
 Now if only the government would realize that international terrorists are
 after the same effect and we'd win that battle, too.
 
 I love idiots ... they generate free publicity for the rest of us.
 
 Bob Hunt

    If'n I run across any of this behavior, I'll become an immediate member
    of the Ninja patrol.  On top of that, if I can identify the individuals
    responsible for bringing the thing to the park, I'll sic Security on
    them, with a recommendation of arrest for public lewdness.  This is
    clearly a case where someone hasn't used the gray matter between their
    ears for anything but stuffing.
    
    I *hope* that park management will clamp down on this behavior
    immediately and hard.  As long as this sort of activity is tolerated, a
    trip to the ball park isn't a suitable outing for a family.  When
    families cease to go to games, you've eaten your seed corn for a fan
    base for the future.
    
    A&W

    First off, I *agree* wholeheartedly with you, REK (and the original
    Noter -- Hmm, *rational discourse*: which conference did this come 
    from?).  I think this kind of cr*p is one of the major reasons I find
    myself shaking my head so often about the prospects of _homo_sapiens_
    ever rising above the primate-level; as long as the monkey-brain
    tendencies are still prevalent (and accepted, as they often are in
    these situations -- other fans, instead of showing their disgust, are
    as often likely to CHEER when they see this sh*t going on!), the quest
    is clearly on hold...
    
    I think the general title of this Note goes even farther, though.  It
    opens up the whole question of why-do-people-attend-sporting-events in
    the first place:
    
    Over the years, it has become increasingly more difficult to justify
    going to a live game:
    
    If it's not the drunks spilling beer on their neverending cycles from 
    seat-to-beer-window-and-back, 
    
    it's the bozos whose only function seems to be to cheer on (if not
    join) the bleacher-brawls; OR 
    
    it's the ones throwing beachballs on the field (often during tense 
    moments in the game; OR
    
    they're doing the X-rated version of the Miller Lite chant, OR
    
    they're throwing trash at one another (across rows of folks in between, 
    of course, with the expected fallout landing on them); OR
    
    they're upping the ante with the rubber-doll routines mentioned above,
    thereby offending/demeaning/disgusting those around them with at least
    half a brain and a modicum of decency and compassion for valuing
    differences, etc.
    
    And I won't even go into the Wave, which I HATE -- not because it's a
    bit of harmless fun, but because it interferes with what MANY OF US
    came for in the first place:  to WATCH and ENJOY the game on the field.
    
    Nor will I add the vast number of folks I've noticed in the past few
    years -- even at FENWAY PARK, home of the most knowledgeable
    sports-fans around -- who, like transplanted Angel-fans, seem delighted
    to (a) enter around the second inning, (b) spend 2/3 of the time going
    for concessions and schmoozing about ANYTHING NUT the game before their
    eyes, and (c) leave in the eighth inning -- even sometimes in a one-run
    game with the tying runs on base(!) -- whether to avoid the traffic or
    catch first-call at the disco down the street, I don't know, but GO
    they do, blocking the aisles for minutes at a time, so nobody else can
    see the game they came to see...
    
    I don't know the answer, but there's GOT to be one; I've essentially
    stopped going to the ballpark ...
    
    - Steve, a_loyal_fan_for_34_years_but_enough_is_enough
       

    I was at the game in question and saw the doll being batted around.  I
    was nowhere near the rightfield bleachers where the alleged events were
    taking place, so I can't comment on the validity of what English
    reported went on last Friday night.  If what she reports did take 
    place (and I have no reason to doubt that it did), I agree that it can 
    only be described as disgusting and appalling and that it should make 
    people think twice about coming to the ballpark.
    
    However, I disagree with the notion in the article that suggests that
    this inflatable-doll thing has become something of a male ritual at 
    Fenway Park.  I go to 20-30 games a year, most of them in the
    bleachers, and in the last three to four years have witnessed only a 
    couple of previous instances where these dolls were batted around. 
    That's bad enough, but both times the dolls elicited nothing more 
    than a few chuckles before some good soul like our very own Beachball 
    Ninja destroyed them.  I saw nothing of the graphic sexual nature 
    that English described.  (This is just my experience, having brought 
    my two young daughters out to sit in the centerfield bleachers many
    times and never having had the problems that many have described...)
    
    glenn
    

    IMO, Bella's head can be a bit inflated (oh my, is that a pun?) She
    did get a smile from me with 'Fenway does Fifi'.  Anyway...
    
    I don't get to that many games, so I've yet to see these dolls but I've
    heard the lewd comments and seen people harrassed.  When you open your
    mouth to ask one of these guys why they are there, they respond by
    calling you an "uptight bitch."  You gotta wonder about some people.
    
    We usually have a good time.

    Okay 'Saw, you've been warned.  :*)
    
    Actually, it doesn't surprise me to hear of this.  There seems to be a
    small element of jerks and creeps who attend public activities and
    whose sole purpose seems to be to attract attention to themselves,
    regardless of who might get hurt or offended.  While I don't think it's
    a very new phenomenon, I perceive the reaction of the crowd as somewhat
    new.  That is, to not react negatively to whatever is occurring.
    
    And, that's pretty much why I don't attend very many professional
    sports events.  I still like the games being played, but I find it just
    too distracting to enjoy the very event that I paid money to see.
    
    Kinda makes you think just how long will it be before "Rollerball"
    becomes a major "sport".
    
    lEe

	I suffered through every Patriot home game last year and never saw 
the Lisa Olson blow up dolls.  Matter of fact I can't remember seeing a 
generic one either, do you Denny?  About the only thing happening at 
Patriots games last year, other than the "Lisa Incident" was people leaving 
disgusted at halftime.  The most fun I had all year was when the Giants 
fans showed up the last game of the season.  They're a rowdy bunch but good 
natured.


				/Don

Hey, nothing surprises me anymore...

My first reaction when I heard this story was "Gee, those blowup dolls have
to be much more expensive than you're average beach ball."   With that in
mind it must be one sick individual who would spend that much money for
a few seconds of cheap thrills before a "Blow_up Doll Ninja" punctures it...

I'd much prefer to watch a game at home, where the beer is only a few
steps away, there's instant replay, the bathroom floor isn't flooded, and
the only thing flying around is the occasional house-fly that came in through
the door when I let the dog out.....

'Saw

 On the way back to my hotel room lasted night, I picked up a copy of
 yesterday's Globe and read the entire article about these incidents.  
 Interestingly enough, it was not in the Globe's sports section ... rather
 it was in the local news section.
 
 I honestly do not want to seem insensitive to her feelings here but she
 made a very fast jump in the article from seething about the Fenway idiots
 to a bitter recital of national statistics on rape, hate crimes, and
 violence against women.
 
 It's not at all clear to me how these cretins are directly responsible for
 the grim environment some women find themselves in.   I can see, perhaps
 from her point, that these idiots might illustrate a small thread of a
 larger negative attitude against women but that's a *HUGE* leap.
 
 Again, I don't want to discount the stupidity of these bozos' actions.   I
 just think that this particular writer has a major league axe to grind
 against all men and these fools gave her the prop she needed.
 
 The "Fifi Does Fenway" line was good, though.
 
 Bob Hunt
 
 P.S.   Despite my earlier insistence that ignoring the jerks is the smart
 thing to do, it would *NOT* bother me terribly if Fenway officials
 confiscated their toys and escorted the cranial cavities out of the
 ballpark so that other people could watch the game in peace.
 
 However, that would certainly not eliminate the possibility of their
 return the nexted night, would it ???

    Bob, if you were a regular Globe reader you'd soon find that Bella
    English has nothing more than a complete feminist agenda.  She seems to
    use her column as nothing more than an excuse to bash men, and she also
    seems to print sensationalist stories with no verification from the
    other side.  On this one, she probably hasn't been in Fenway Park or
    Foxboro Stadium in her life.  Some of the time, Ellen Goodman (another
    Globe columnist) isn't much better either.  I find Bella English to be
    sort of the liberal equivalent of a ranting, raving conservative (Jesse
    Helms?) and I read her with not just a grain of salt, but several pounds.
    
    I have never seen the dolls being bounced around in the Fenway
    bleachers.  I've never seen them at Foxboro either but then again, I'm
    not in the stands at Foxboro so I don't see a lot of things that are
    alleged to go on.
    
    It was reported in the Globe today that the Red Sox are going to take
    steps to cut down on this.  For example, the need to search for these
    blow-up dolls has been emphasized.  The dolls are being confiscated
    when found and those responsible are being ejected, when identifiable.
    
    I also agree - behavior such as this, or beachballs, or the wave, or
    excessive drinking, or excessive profanity, or drug abuse - has no
    place at the ballpark.
    
    John

    Had they been batting around an inflatable dolphin/shark/whale etc.,
    would that have been linked to animal cruelty?  Doubt it.  Bob is right
    when he says there's an axe grinding here.
    
    	--dan'l

    Apparently the inflatable-doll incident has now sparked something of a 
    major controversy, with an article in this morning's Globe claiming 
    that the Red Sox offices were flooded with critical phone calls 
    yesterday.  We've also got the president of Boston's NOW chapter saying, 
    "One of the questions you have to ask is, why are they seizing 
    beachballs more quickly than they are seizing degrading dolls of women?"
    (News to me, as I've never seen a security guard seize a beachball
    unless it hit him in the face, and even then he'll usually throw it
    back.)  For some reason, the teams themselves, the Red Sox and Patriots 
    in particular, have become the focus of attention for what a few patrons 
    would attempt to do once inside the park.
    
    I think this comment and both of English's suggestions that the Red Sox
    "implicitly condone" such behavior and that the Patriots have done the 
    same with vendors hawking "Lisa Dolls" at Sullivan Stadium are well 
    off the mark.  I only hope that the reaction to this particular problem
    (the disgusting behavior of a few specifically directed at women in the 
    ballpark) don't overshadow the general problems of fan behavior that 
    have been going on for years and years with very little attention 
    paid to them...
    
    glenn
       

    >>  I only hope that the reaction to this particular problem (the 
    >>  disgusting behavior of a few specifically directed at women in
    >>  the ballpark) don't overshadow the general problems of fan behavior
    >>  that have been going on for years and years with very little attention
    >>  paid to them...
      
    Amen, Brother!  Amen!!
    
    - Steve  

    The other thing I didn't like about Ms English's article is that she
    implied that the "Lisa Olson dolls" were being sold at the Stadium last
    year with the implied consent of the New England Patriots.
    
    1.  Not even we would be that stupid.
    2.  We have no control over the concessions.  The Stadium does.  We own
        no land down there that I know of.
    3.  I would hope the Stadium wouldn't be that stupid.
    4.  If there was a concessionaire selling the dolls in the parking lot,
    	we have no control over that and the Stadium has little control.
    5.  If there was a concessionaire selling the dolls in a
    	privately-owned parking lot or along the highway, no one has any 
    	control over that.
    
    John

    Here we go again.  Every year about this time we seem to have a few
    people come out condemning the sports fan attending games.  Most of the
    people making accusations hide behind "I haven't been to the ballpark
    in years because of this very problem".  I admit I only get to a
    handful of games at Fenway each year, and I haven't been to Foxboro in
    a few years, but I have never seen the degree of behaviour the critics
    bring up.  Yes, I have seen 1 blowup doll in the bleachers.  It was
    being batted around like a beach ball.  I didn't see/hear any lewd
    action/comments.
    
    If you don't like it, stay home.  Don't go to a movie either because
    someone may laugh at a joke or sneeze and make you miss something. 
    Personally, although there are the benefits that 'Saw mentioned for
    staying at home to watch, there is something extra to gain by being
    there.  I don't like the wave or beachballs interfering with my vision
    either, but I don't let it get to me.
    
    So, what should we do?  Close the stadia to the public and pipe in
    crowd noise and all watch from home drinking our non-alcoholic beverage
    of choice?
    
    Another thing that cracks me up is the sentiment that fans have a right
    to do whatever they want since they paid the price of admission. 
    Witness the discussions around the Canseco and Belle incidents.  Yet
    these same people condemn the wave.

    
    They had a picture of two such dolls being 'batted' about in da
    bleachas in today's Globe. Looks to me like everyone is laughing,
    men, women and children. Lord knows I detest the idiots at the 
    park, but they'll allways be there, and if it aint inflateable
    dolls, then they'll just find somin' else. C'est la vie!
    
    
    
    Steve

 And you wanna know what else ???
 
 I'll bet the house (what the hell, I've lost it so many times before ...)
 that at tomorrow's game in Fenway against the A's, the place will be
 filled with the dolls.    There'll probably be about 50 of 'em ... all in
 various shapes and sizes and colors and features.   A veritable plethora
 of inflatability.
 
 Madonna said it great last summer during the Rosanne Barr national anthem
 flap ...
 
           "America, get a sense of humor, willya, please ???"
 
 {insert the standard disclaimers about how much I detest wife beating,
 incest, date rape, child support deadbeats, and whatever other causes
 were offended by this doll thing}
 
 Bob Hunt

Bob, you raise a very good point.

We have, as a society, become so sensitized to things that we can't even
laugh about something any more for fear of offending someone.  


I mean, even in here we have to tread on eggshells most of the time for
fear of offending someone.  For instance, I thought long and hard about
using the term "whitebread honky" to describe those rap lyrics.  I mean,
in my mind, I was poking fun at the "whiteness" of the rap and at myself
etc etc etc etc.  But, there were myriad thoughts running through my head
like "Let's see, how far could someone stretch their imagination to prove
that I'm casting aspersions on some race, religion, creed or whatever"

It's a scary thing.  We have forgotten how to laugh...at *ourselves*.

Sure, there will always be hate, but if you can't laugh at a people's
foibles, then we've lost something.  Even the guys on the radio in the
morning were saying that about the only people they could laugh at 
anymore were White Anglo-Saxon Protestant yuppies from Fairfield county....


Oh well, I've been on my soapbox too long today.

Just remember one thing:  the only thing common to all languages of the
world is laughter....

'Saw

    
    I'll tell ya what, if any woman ever laughed at my foibles, I'd put my
    pants back on and throw her out!
      

    I worked one summer at Wrigley Field, back in 1971.  I was accosted by
    drunk fans twice, and one guy tried to walk me out of the ballpark.  It
    took three pretty good-sized ushers to convince him to let me go. 
    Wrigley at that time didn't have any problems with beach balls or other
    toys in the ball park.
    
    The few games that I've been to at Fenway have been significantly more
    rowdy than those games were.  (And I'm including a 'bleachers vs box
    seats' differential, since I sat in the bleachers at Wrigley as well.) 
    I'll only go to Fenway as part of a group -- i.e. Noter's
    get-togethers.  And even then only for day games.
    
    I don't believe that a majority of you gentlemen (and those of you who
    I have met fit that definition) understand the gut-level "is it safe
    for me to do this" that most women deal with on a daily basis.  There
    are a *lot* of subtle ways that I govern my own behavior so that I
    won't find myself in a dangerous situation.  It includes things like
    never leaving a rugby party alone - there is always someone else
    leaving the bar at the same time I am (whether they know I'm leaving
    with them or not).  It includes not using public transportation after
    dark, or parking on a side street in a city.
    
    The folks with the mind set that brings an inflatable doll to the game
    and thinks it's "fun" to incite disgust in their audience are the ones
    I most want to avoid.  They may or may not be dangerous, but *I can't
    tell*.  And I can't take the risk, because in a confrontation the
    statistics say that I will lose.  And I will be blamed for having put
    myself in a dangerous position in the first place.  "Didn't she know it
    was dangerous/Why was she there?" are very common questions to ask when
    you hear of a victim being assaulted.
    
    Bella English tends to be an extremist, and I don't like her writing. 
    John has an excellent point that she may be playing fast and loose with
    the facts of what happened at Foxboro last fall, and even at Fenway
    this week.  But the fear which such activity engenders is very real.
    
    A&W 

 I hear you loud and clear, A&W.   
 
 And I know I'll never be able to relate to your very legitimate fears on
 your very personal level.   All I can do is acknowledge their existence.
 
 My thoughts are on this issue are in no way meant to discredit your fears.
 
 Bob Hunt

    > I'll only go to Fenway as part of a group -- i.e. Noter's
    > get-togethers.  And even then only for day games.
    
    This is a good point, too, A&W.  I go to mostly day games too, and
    while I think that just as much beer if not more gets consumed out
    there during the day, once the sun goes down people start to behave 
    differently.  Not necessarily just in their behavior towards women, 
    either, but in general.  It's like people think they're inconspicuous 
    at night or something...
    
    glenn
    

    Thanks, A&W, for putting it into its proper perspective --
    
    At 6-4, 180, and male (and looking much tougher than the little-boy
    inside feels most of time?  ;^}), I can NEVER feel the level of fear
    (even when I think I do) that you must experience daily in this
    all-too-often violent society.  The uncertainty about whether the
    yokels in the stands are just `letting off steam' (and how far they
    might take it?) is pretty frightening it itself -- my SO has expressed
    it often enough, even if I hadn't noticed at times, myself..
    
    Again, I reiterate and repeat myself, but the `bystander' aspect of
    benign neglect and cheerful tolerance is still the greatest danger...
    
    IMO, of course,
    
    - Steve

    John, I don't know if doing the Wave or playing volleyball with a
    beachball is comparable with what some of these jerks are doing. I like
    the Wave, it defintely can get a crowd involved. And it's harmless.
    
    Let's not make that huge leap in the other direction ...

Yeah, but the Wave is so OLD....

I think the guy who did the swan dive into the screen behind home plate
a Yankee Stadium a few years back had the right idea.  Personally, I'd
like to try Bungee Jumping from the upper deck.....

8^)

'Saw

    I may be tall, but it's still a bit difficult for me to see the game
    when the idiots in front of stand up, throw their hands in the air, and
    ooh and ahh at their ability to do this in unison.  The wave also seems
    to come at the stupidest times - like a bases loaded situation with the
    home team at the plate and a bunch of people in CF standing up as a 95
    mph fastball is bearing down on the batter.  Great hitting background,
    eh?
    
    Anyone who needs to do the wave, have a pair of clapping hands on the
    scoreboard, or a be told when to cheer to "get into the game" should go
    home and leave their box seat for someone who deserves it.

    >> The wave also seems to come at the stupidest times - like a bases 
    >> loaded situation with the home team at the plate and a bunch of 
    >> people in CF standing up as a 95 mph fastball is bearing down on 
    >> the batter.  Great hitting background, eh?
    
    Mr. M., we seem to be following each other around here, and saying
    mostly the same things... ;^}
    
    That's my biggest beef -- the WAVE and its relatives would be FINE, in
    a dull moment, or getting some energy into the park to inspire the
    team, but it seems, MOTN, that this stuff gets going just when the GAME
    gets interesting for those of us who are there to watch it...
    
    And the stuff about the hitting background -- how long before a player
    (Canseco, perhaps?) refuses to step into the box until the Wave abates
    -- can't say as I'd blame him, with Clemens throwing heat, for example!
    
    - SteveT

    Re: .24
    
    Doc, the only way in which the acts with the doll, the wave, beachballs
    and so forth are comparable is that none of them are really appropriate
    at the ball park, in my not-so-humble opinion.
    
    The acts with the doll are completely disgusting.  The wave and
    beachballs distract from those of us who want to go and watch the game.
    
    John

Well, I was in the bleachers lasted night and there were NO blow up dolls.  And
there was only one naked lady.  On the whole, the bleachers were very well
behaved.

j.

    re. -1
    
    	j.  did they pass her from one guy to the next?
    

    re .28
    
    The Wave is a sacred institution.
    
    End of story.
    
    
    
    Many :-)'s

   <<< Note 164.24 by EARRTH::BROOKS "All around the world, same song ..." >>>
    
    >                  -< What's a man without The Wave ? >-
    
    A fan?
    
    Mark.
    
    

    >                -< j, what do you say to a naked lady? >-
    
    Down in front!
    

>> -< j, what do you say to a naked lady? >-

"Hello, Naked Lady."

 Was mindlessly watching the drivel on "Good Morning, America" this morning
 while packing up and getting ready to check out and I noticed that Cher
 was being interviewed.   Caught my eye because she's sporting this new
 flame red hair, but that's beside the point ...
 
 Anyways, the gossip lady who was interviewing Cher commented that this was
 the first time in a long while that Cher isn't seeing anyone.   Cher
 acknowledged the fact that she's flying solo for the time being and how
 much she enjoyed the change of pace blah blah blah ...
 
 So, Cher says ... "Yeah, it's nice to be alone for a little while but I'm
 not looking forward to doing this forever ... blah blah blah ... because
 there are *some* things men -- wink -- are good for."
 
 Interviewer asks the obvious ... "Such as ???"   
 
 So, of course, Cher says ... "Sex."
 
 And suddenly half of America is all giggly_a_twitter with the images of
 Cher and some 21-year-old hunk o' beef doin' the deed, right ???
 
 So, I instantly juxtapose this rather interesting objectification of men
 as sex objects up against Bella English's "Fifi Does Fenway" axe grinding
 and the faint odor of "double standard" certainly drifted past the ol'
 nostrils.   Not that I wouldn't mind being Cher's "object", mind you, but
 it certainly seems okay for women such as Cher to think beefcake while at
 the same it's not okay for men to think cheesecake.
 
 Not sad, per se, just bizarre as usual ...
 
 Bob Hunt

    Quite frankly, Bob...I'm insulted.  This objectification of the male
    species has to stop.
    
    As Molly Yard would say, "I'm outrayyged!"
    
    Mark.

    	Next thing you know they'll be bouncing anatomically correct
    male blow up dolls around at tupperware parties.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...
    
    				/Don

    RE: .41
    
    �    Next thing you know they'll be bouncing anatomically correct
    �male blow up dolls around at tupperware parties.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...
    
    
    /Don,
    
    Why blow up dolls?  A couple of years ago we'd go to Crystal Parties
    and there would be male strippers live, in person.
    
    Jo

    
    
    >>	Next thing you know they'll be bouncing anatomically correct
    >>male blow up dolls around at tupperware parties.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...
    
    Seem to remember something about an ex of mine going to a bachelorette
    party where they had a "John Holmes" blow-up doll present!!!
    
    Just wonder where the nozzle was????  (8^0*  (8^0*  (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

SEE, I told you guys there'd be a need for my Average Guy strip shows!

Our first song will be Joe Walsh's "Average Ordinary Guy"...

Exploit me, baby, you won't hear my squaking......


'Saw

    Yeah, but you got to admit, Bob, what Cher said compared to what those
    guys were doing is pretty innocent.
    
    On the other hand, Bella English asked in her article what the reaction 
    would be if a female simulated sex acts on a *male* inflatable doll.
    To which I thought, "Well, that would be a Madonna concert!"
    
    glenn
    

    Doesn't take 'BCN long...
    
    Just heard their contribution to the bleacher doll thing.  It's sung
    to Zevon's "Excitable Boy" and it's called "Inflatable Doll."  (real
    original)  Only caught the foul balls/being stabbed in the shin by a 
    pen wielding Security guard part... 

    Follow up, of a sort.  Thursday night on my way home, I was listening
    to Anvilhead.  (I can deal with it for about 15-20 minutes at a crack.) 
    One of the kids that brought the doll to the park called up to
    apologize, saying "We didn't think it through far enough.  We
    concentrated on the fun for the 15 of us, and forgot about everyone
    else."  Eddie suggested to the kid that if they *really* wanted to
    apologize, they should consider a hefty donation of money or time to
    the Jimmy Fund.
    
    I was impressed that Eddie had a reparation in mind that actually made
    sense.  And that someone was willing to go on the air and confess.
    
    A&W

    On the Cher/Madonna/Real Guys Strip Bar (do it, guys, please) thread. 
    There's a difference between what is done in private, or semi-private,
    talking about it, and imitating it graphically in public.
    
    I can think of a number of guys that I'd be delighted to star in their
    fantasies, possibly even participate in real life.  Wouldn't mind in
    the least if someone thought of me that way :-).  But I ain't about to
    go at it in the bleachers at Fenway !!!
    
    A&W

Boston Red Sox Mgmt. wants us to believe it opposes the fondling of anatomically 
correct inflatable dolls in the Fenway Park bleachers because of the lewd acts 
are offensive to other paying customers. This is a ruse. What the BoSox really 
fear is that their third baseman with teh wandering eyes, Wade Boggs, may get 
attracted to one of these plastic, buxom babes and invite her on the teams next
road trip as his guest. And, as the Beantowners battle for first place, another 
adultery scandal is the last thing they need. 

What is really sad about the whole thing is that the original press
release or whatever it's called, that alleged the same thing happened
at the Patriots games and that they were selling Lisa Olsen dolls has
made the rounds. 

Last Friday morning a local radio station broadcast that release as part
of their newscast.  That says to me that somewhere along the line, something
*was* released to the press which spoke of the Patriots etc etc.  If that's
the case, and I was the Patriots, I'd sue the sh_t out of whoever wrote
that without (obviously) getting all the facts....

'Saw

    And that's the thing that burns me most about this entire thing, 'Saw,
    the implication that the Patriots are somehow involved when we're not.
    
    I was also taken to task by another noter in another conference for the
    following - after what happened to Lisa Olson, he doesn't care how
    badly or unfairly the Patriots get treated and if I had any integrity
    as an employee, I'd organize a petition or some other job campaign to
    go to Victor Kiam and tell him to keep his mouth shut because of the
    bad brush it paints the team with.  Otherwise, I'm just as much a part
    of the problem as Victor is.
    
    Isn't that special?
    
    John

    
    There would be no grounds for the Patriots to sue, though.  As slanted
    as the original article might have been, there was no claim that the
    Red Sox or Patriots actively participated in the sale, distribution, or 
    transport into the stadium of the articles, only the suggestion that 
    they were encouraging it by looking the other way.  The fact that another 
    news organization might have misinterpreted the article and ran with is
    understandable given its overall impression, but it is still their
    responsibility to check the facts...
    
    glenn
     

    Just for the record, I'm sure you've all heard by now of Friday's
    Reagan/Bush Supreme Court ruling that enables local governments to
    outlaw nude dancing.
    
    Yes, I'm sure that's the cause of all this sexual excitement we see in
    America today.  Gotta be.  I'm sure many families will be saved in the
    long run because of this ruling.  Give me a freakin' break!
    
    	--dan'l

 It's Ronnie and Georgie's solution to the AIDS problem Dan-l don't
 you realize this....

 What's the difference between a Republician Government and a Dictatorship?



 beat's me if I know. oh yeah wait a minute I do the republicians lie better...

John,

Just remember that there's always an a**hole in every crowd.  People that
make sweeping generalizations like that usually aren't smart enough to
think through what they are saying.

Mike, 

The Republicans are no worse than the Democrats...the Democrats just want
a shitload more social programs 8^)  The problem is that they are all
liars when you come down to it, because the name of the game is
who can wash the other's person's back the best, garnering IOUs for 
political favors later.

Rare is the political person who can work within the system without being
tainted by it....


Re the Supreme Court,

Screw their ruling.  I'll dance nude for any ladies that wanna come to
my house.  In fact, I'll have a bunch of my "regular guy" friends over
and we'll all dance for them.  Like during Prohibition however, you'll
have to know the password at the door.

(Sheesh, I can just hear all those wives out there going "It's about time")


'Saw

    This note is in danger of going down the wrong rathole.  Let's keep it
    sports related or move it to 73 (or SOAPBOX).

    What's the management of CleveScum Staduim going to say this year about
    Bernice Kosar's request to be accompanied on field by his "lifesize"
    John Holmes doll?????
    
    (8^)*  (8^0*
    
    JaKe
    

    In light of the Supreme Court ruling, it looks like Canada will be
    doing  better business.  Their more lenient nudity laws are already
    pulling a lot of "tourists" across the border.
    
    IMHO, if noone is get hurt, why bother.  Wouldn't be ironic if rapes
    increased after this.  Though for the sake of the future victoms, I
    sincerly hope not.
    
    Commander Scott

    Bella's column today is parts of po'd readers/callers gripes about the
    doll thing.  Wonder how long she's gonna drive this bandwagon?

    Re: 60 As long as people talk about it and send her mail....
    
    REK

	With unemployment lines winding around buildings and a good 
percentage of Boston's youth slated for a slab on the morgue this summer I 
just can't see making a big issue out of an inflated doll in the Fenway 
bleachers.

				/Don

    As long as she doesn't drag the Patriots back into it, fine.
    
    John

    >> With unemployment lines winding around buildings and a good
    >> percentage of Boston's youth slated for a slab on the morgue this
    >> summer I just can't see making a big issue out of an inflated doll 
    >> in the Fenway bleachers.
         
    /Don,
    
    As one of those who will be among the unemployed again as of Friday,
    I heartily agree...
    
    But then, when do GLOBE columnists EVER pay attention to reality?  (My
    favorite is Barnacle(tm), who has made a tidy living writing about the
    horrors of society:  e.g., this elderly lady or that one, living in a 
    housing project with a broken window in the dead of winter -- I keep 
    wanting to scream out, "Get out from behind your @#$% terminal and go 
    FIX the &@^%$ window, Bozo!"  Instead, he just keeps writing about it...)
    
    - SteveT, who_thinks_it's_all_just_an_excuse_to_print_more_fishwrapping
    

    
    Did she ever determine that no women were involved in bringing these
    dolls into Fenway, or did she just assume so?
    
    Bruce

    I'd say that at least 3 years ago, maybe more, Monday Night Football
    showed fans playing with a_inflatable doll in the stands of some
    stadium.  Over 3 years ago my brother-in-law told me about a Jets game
    where they were chanting "joe Must go" and folks in the stands were
    using a_inflatable doll for a beach ball.
    
    This is not a new thang - but Bella is obviously on her high horse.
    
    And I agree with /Don - once again folks get more worked up over an
    "Oprah" issue then do about 'REAL' issues like unemployment, crime,
    etc.
    
    JD

    - What's the harm if nobody gets hurt?
    
    - It's just an overreaction by an ultra-feminist.
    
    - What's wrong with guys just havin' fun?
    
    - The whole things' being blown out of proportion,
    
    - Isolated incident; to be sure.
    
    These are just a few of the lines this note has taken to sluff off this
    incident. I find the entire theme revolting.
    
    I received a mail message from someone who attended a game in Fenway
    that pretty much described what the base note stated. Except it
    mentioned how a group of men were chanting around this doll " Do her,
    do her good, that's the ticket, show her how it's done". Then cascades
    of laughter from this gang of men.
    
    Now I'm picturing in my mind my wife and daughter sitting in front of
    these lunatics in the blezchers at Fenway. I pitcure them beginning to
    shake with fear. I can only imagine what would be going through their
    minds. A&W tried to portray this fear but so many of you noters quickly
    got back to Bella bashing and other justifications for sluffing the
    whole thing off.
    
    Perhaps Bella DID overreact. Perhaps it WAS an isolated incident. The
    fact is that something happened to upset a female in the bleachers at
    Fenway and a bunch of testosterone drenched males see nothing wrong
    in having a little fun. 
    
    On the heels of Vic Kiam's insensitive remarks, this incident points
    out the lack of understanding that still exists concerning womens'
    fears. If NOW speaks out it is passed off as some hairy manly lesbian
    ranting.
    
    The fear a woman would have in that situation is real. I have an
    attractive wife whom I would fear for had she been in close proximity
    to that situation.
    
    And Bob Hunt, I would have difficulty with my 7 year old son for weeks
    had he been exposed to that kind of crap. Sure I could explain to him
    how bad it was. Is THAT going to make sense to a kid who just witnessed
    thousands of bleacherites laughing at the spectacle?
    
    Something is really wrong with the attitudes of so-called sports fans
    who go out of their way to condone this type of activity.
    
    Rich
    

 �   And Bob Hunt, I would have difficulty with my 7 year old son for weeks
 �   had he been exposed to that kind of crap. Sure I could explain to him
 �   how bad it was. Is THAT going to make sense to a kid who just witnessed
 �   thousands of bleacherites laughing at the spectacle?
 
 So be it.   I could very well have the same problem explaining it to
 my girls.  I don't deny that.    But I like to think that I'd focus
 more on how thoughtless and stupid they were rather than launch into
 a discussion on rape, hate-crimes, and actual women-objectification
 (none of which happened at Fenway).
   
 �   Something is really wrong with the attitudes of so-called sports fans
 �   who go out of their way to condone this type of activity.
 
 Unless I'm mistaken I don't recall a single noter in here condoning
 the activity.   I called the jerks every single "stupid" name I could
 think of.   
 
 I just didn't call them rapists or woman-haters or woman-objectifiers
 or whatever Ms English called them.   Hope you don't consider that
 "condoning" because it's certainly not.
 
 Anytime something like this happens, you get a polarization of
 opinion.   That's not bad, in fact, it's good.  I won't deny that I
 don't think it's a big deal.    But I certainly don't condone it. 
 Bella English has a right to write what she feels.   And I have a
 right to disagree with some or all of it.
 
 And I also was quick to recognize that I'd never know a woman's fears
 like A&W described.
 
 Bob Hunt

 > Anytime something like this happens, you get a polarization of
 > opinion.   That's not bad, in fact, it's good.  I won't deny that I
 > don't think it's a big deal.    But I certainly don't condone it. 
 > Bella English has a right to write what she feels.   And I have a
 > right to disagree with some or all of it.
    
    And write about it.  And write about it again.  And continue to write
    about it, accusing the Red Sox (as Rich has done here) of condoning the 
    behavior and doing nothing about the problem even after they've 
    continually aired community service messages in both their radio and 
    television broadcasts reaffirming their standing policies.
    
    Yesterday she included a cute little poem from Bill Littlefield of
    WBUR, sung to the tune of "Take Me Out to the Ballgame", with all sorts
    of stuff about smoking crack and rape and murder and famine and
    pestilence  in the bleachers and management thinks it's a ball blah
    blah blah... (This was after slapping around those notorious bad apples
    Ellis Burks, Jody Reed, and Tony Pena for failing to show at a photo
    session with some kids and causing their parental escort to get a
    written warning from his supervisor for missing work.)
    
    I sincerely apologize if I've offended you with what you might
    mistakenly think to be my views on the seriousness of this problem,
    Rich, but I do think this little media campaign has been entirely 
    the wrong approach and more than a little dishonest.  Like most of
    these feature columnists in the local papers usually do, it's turned 
    me way off to their message and I see no reason to be ashamed to say 
    so...   
    
    glenn
    

    re Bob and Glenn
    
    Bob, I apologize if you felt I was lumping you and other noters into a
    category of condoners. And, Glenn, I don't believe I pointed a finger
    at the Red Sox.
    
    However, judging from the never-ending DH debate, I find it hard to
    swallow that I am being castigated for dredging this issue up again. 
    
    This is not just a Boston issue. It is not to be treated lightly. (And,
    Bob, I know you referred to the instigators as jerks and morons). 
    
    I would like to think I could take my family to a Patriots game or Red
    Sox game and have them feel at ease throughout the contest. But, before
    I left Massachusetts, I experienced roguh incidents at both Fenway and
    Foxboro that turned me towards McCoy Stadium to share the baseball
    experience. To hear my wife tell me in the 7th inning, "Come on, Rich,
    I think it's time to go, I don't feel safe here at all" really pisses
    me off. I love baseball and I love the aura of Fenway Park. But when
    you are surrounded by 20 or so thoughtless clowns who you can't gauge,
    as far as how far they will go, you have to give in and get your family
    out of a potentially bad situation.
    
    Sorry, guys, but I think it IS a big deal. I like to think that a
    baseball game can be a place where a father can take his kids, enjoy
    peanuts and a hot dog and watch his favorite team. I'd like to think
    it's a great place to take my wife on a warm summer night to soak up
    some suds and a game. 
    
    But attitudes are changing in the stands. A ticket seems to stand for a
    license to act like a jerk and illicit fear and horror in those that
    sit around you to too many people these days.
    
    It's different if a bunch of guys go to watch a game, some punks act
    up, you tell 'em to shut up, they refuse and you punch their lights out
    in the mens' room. I'm talking families here. 
    
    Rich
    

    
    (Rich, I wasn't claiming you said the Red Sox were condoning the
    behavior, rather that you stated that the noters in here were.  I 
    also have no problems with you bringing the issue up again.)
    
    Given the number of bad experiences that have been cited by many in 
    here and in the RED_SOX conference, I'm beginning to get the idea that
    my outlook has been severely prejudiced by the fact that I'm usually
    sitting in the same place with the same group of people (or friends or
    acquaintances of those people), mostly season ticket holders, at nearly 
    every game.  It's in the bleachers no less, which has probably overly
    sensitized me to the debate.  It's hard for me to believe that we're
    even talking about the same place, because I've brought my family so
    many times, have rarely had any problems, and count the experiences up
    with the best I've had anywhere.  There's been a little rowdiness,
    occasional profanity, but nothing that's crossed the line where I was
    in fear of my surroundings.  That's also probably why I've objected to
    the wholesale depiction of the ballpark as a 33,000 seat drunktank.
    
    Nevertheless, I'll have to acknowledge in light of the experiences of
    so many others that we're obviously not talking about the same 
    conditions here.  I think your concerns are legitimate, Rich.
    
    glenn
       

    Glenn -
    
    From my experience as an usher, season ticket sections were always the
    best place to work.  The fans were calm, reasonable, and interested in
    the game.  Other sections had reputations (usually ones sold as small
    group seating, one shots, non-youth teams) as being real hell-holes. 
    They didn't let the girls usher those sections, even in 1971.
    
    Everybody -
    
    It is my personal opinion that *other fans* can do a lot to curb this
    kind of behavior.  If caught early enough, saying directly that you are
    interested in the game on the field, not those in the stands, can have
    a wonderful effect.  When you get spilled on, tripped over, or
    otherwise mistreated, indicating that it is *not all right*, but you'll
    overlook it if not mistreated, helps.  (And if I'm at fault, I
    apologize profusely and immediately and attempt to make amends --
    right??)  Generally, if one person speaks up, others around will come
    to their support.  But it takes courage, and a willingness to leave
    immediately if the confrontation doesn't work.
    
    A&W

    Glenn,
    
    You are correct - not ALL of Fenway is rowdy. I have had some enjoyable
    and memorable nights not only in the grandstands and box seats but in
    the bleachers as well. My first game in Fenway was in 1956 when my Dad
    brought me in to see the Yankees. We sat out in the triangle, front
    row. I was so close to Jimmy Piersall and Mickey Mantle.....a little
    kid's dream come true. I have attended one Tiger-mania event and
    enjoyed the heck out of it. I have been in just about every section of
    Fenway (except the LF corner) and most experiences have been great.
    
    However, within the last few years (which coincided with my son's
    interest in baseball) I noticed a changing attitude. It became
    difficult to get a reserved grandstand seat 2-3 weeks before a game.
    Tickets became scarce and it seemed bleacher seats were the only place
    to get tickets on short notice. Just my luck that my seats happened to
    be in the middle of a bunch of coneheads.
    
    I admit that I gave up and started attending games in Pawtucket. And
    now I take the family regularly to the Diamond in Richmond to watch the
    local AAA Braves play. Looking forward to trekking up I-95 next year to
    see the Orioles play in their new stadium.
    
    As far as the Patriots go, I've had some wonderful experiences there as
    well. But I also sat next to some boneheads who trampled a guy trying
    to recover the beer from the cup of a women who had fainted from the
    heat (vs Packers 1985). Even though I lived 10 miles from the stadium,
    the experiences did not warrant the inconveniences, rowdiness, etc.
    
    I just hope that Bella's (and I really don't care for her writing
    style, either) article raised the awareness of the many true sports
    fans in the Boston area and will cause them to turn on these mindless
    fools in the bleachers and in Foxboro.
    
    Rich
    

>    To hear my wife tell me in the 7th inning, "Come on, Rich,
>    I think it's time to go, I don't feel safe here at all" really pisses
>    me off. I love baseball and I love the aura of Fenway Park. But when
>    you are surrounded by 20 or so thoughtless clowns who you can't gauge,
>    as far as how far they will go, you have to give in and get your family
>    out of a potentially bad situation.
    
    Then, Rich, you have let the "clowns" succeed in their goal, to be the
    center of attention and annoy people.  The best thing to do (and I
    think Bob Hunt said this way back) is to ignore them.   
    
    I got a fortune cookie once that read: "The life you lead should be
    your own."  I have carried that piece of paper with me ever since and
    remembering it helps me be a much better and happier person.  Think
    about it.
    
    Furthermore, Bob is an excellent father and I would hope to emmulate
    him someday.  I believe his approach to the situation is the best.
    rather than teaching children to run, teach them to comprehend; they
    will be much better people in the long run.
    
    	--dan'l

    This is a serious problem.  And it goes beyond Fenway, and sports and
    arenas.
    
    The one thought in my mind when thinking about confronting jerks is the
    unknown of how unstable they are.  Really.  Too many folks are killed
    these days over little arguements and petty annoyances.   
    
    As a youngster I remember my father making a comment to some jerks in
    front of us at Yankee Stadium. The stewed over it, and after the game
    we thought it was over.  The guys followed us to the parking lot, and
    as my father opened the door to let my sister and I in, they jumped
    him.  That was in 1966, when I was 7.   Nowadays, I feel that type of
    behavior could happen at anytime.  
    
    I have to think twice before asking some jerk to turn down the boombox
    at the beach - or ask some jerks to go somewhere else at 2:00 A.M. (I
    live right near a beach, and the night noise can get loud when kids
    decide to party/argue/urinate on one of the quiet side streets.)  I
    always wonder - will I get jumped?  Will the kids remember where I live
    and throw something through the window?   Especially if they've been
    drinking.  
    
    I've seen bad behavior at different parks - Fenway, Yankee, Shea,
    Giants, Foxboro, Veteran's, La Stade Olympique, the Kingdome, the
    Astrodome, and the corner softball field.  
    
    Enforcement of the rules is what is needed.  IF some jerks are
    simulating a gang-rape of a blow-up doll - chuck them out of the
    stadium.  If they are drunk, starting fights, and throwing things- -
    chuck them out.   Too often its a warning.  And I can't blame ushers
    for being scared to confront 20 drunken louts.   Added police to get
    the message across is what is needed.   If the reputation of a place is
    "You can get away with anything" - then folks will push it to the
    limit.  If it has the rep that "You do something stupid, you get in
    trouble and chucked out", then it will gradually cool down.
    
    Peer pressure is the cause of many of the obnoxious, stupid acts.  A
    guy who wouldn't curse or not use a turn signal, may do a simulated
    rape on a doll upon the urging of his buddies - for the fear of being
    called a wimp, wuss, or other term.   The same peer pressure from the
    larger group can be used to make those folks feel like total low-life
    scum.  Most folks won't take repeated public humblings.
    
    JD

    	I dunno.  Is this the same permissive Fenway security force
    that threw out a bunch of kids on Patriots Day for taking their
    shirts off?

    re .75
    
    Well said, JD. I agree totally. My fear is for my wife and kids. I
    don't know how far these jerks will go and there certainly is not a
    visible deterrent force nearby when these things start to brew.
    
    If my wife feels threatened I feel a need to do what is prudent and get
    her to safety. This is not a situation where a single mugger confronts
    you on the street. These are situations where you can be caught up in
    the midst of an unthinking mob.
    
    Bob H IS correct in how to try and pass these incidents on to kids. I
    heartily agree. But there comes a time when the trheat of physical harm
    causes one to just get the hell away and STAY away until strong
    measures, such as the ones JD alluded to, are taken.
    
    Dan'l, I hear what you are saying and, in it's way, it is wise. BUT,
    reality sometimes has no logic and there is no way to logically predict
    what a bunch of out of control thugs will do. The fear of the unknown
    in these situations can be terrifying. Can you imagine how women feel
    in these situations?
    
    Rich
    

    We never *did* find out what the shirtless wonders had done to deserve
    being tossed, did we?  I find myself wondering if they were passing a
    joint or drinking under-age, either of which would cause them to get
    tossed that early in the game.  My bet would be on under-age drinking,
    which could cause Fenway to lose their liquor license.  Simulated rape
    of a doll doesn't have the same level of economic impact to the stadium's
    management, unfortunately.
    
    And I agree whole-heartedly that confrontation can be a very risky
    tactic.  I find myself wondering if I'd ever reach the point where,
    upon leaving the stadium because of discomfort from rowdy fans, I'd ask
    the ticket office for a refund :-)
    
    A&W

    > My bet would be on under-age drinking,
    > which could cause Fenway to lose their liquor license.  Simulated rape
    > of a doll doesn't have the same level of economic impact to the stadium's
    > management, unfortunately.      
    
    No doubt it doesn't, A&W, but as /Don implied, the notion of Fenway
    security as lax, especially in the bleachers, is an amusing one.  I
    talked with my brother-in-law this past weekend and he told me that he
    did see one of these dolls released last year in a game I gave him
    tickets to, and four guys from where it originated were promply
    bounced.  I've seen a whole row get booted for a mass release of
    beachballs they perpetrated.  Of course they don't see everything or 
    even close to it, but from what I've seen these guys aren't going to 
    sit around and debate constitutional rights with you before you get 
    the thumb.  They will act.
    
    glenn
    

    
    All through the 'Bad ole days' of English soccer fans hooliganism, I
    used to point to North American sports as a model of how fans should,
    and could, behave in these situations.
    
    While I can in no way compare any of this to anything that has happened
    here, it saddens me. The way some of you are talking, it sounds like
    fewer and fewer women and children are being taken (or goping) to a
    ball game. I fear that unless this trend is reversed, it is the road
    to problems like we experianced here.
    
    Fewer women and children means fewer family men, which means more
    boneheads. This means more problems which means fewer women and
    children ...... etc etc. 
    
    The more families that are encouraged to go, then the fewer boneheads
    get in. It seems that there are one or two people who are conected with
    a Team or a stadium in this conferance. Perhaps they can answer me
    here. How difficult would it be to administer a rule which prevented
    the selling of seats to an all-male groups in bigger groups than (say)
    four ? This would spread them around a bit, and reduce the 'pack'
    mentality. I know it is a little unfair on the large groups of well
    behaved males, but might it be worth it ?
    
    I hope you don't mind me poking my oar in.
    
    Regards,
    Wayne.

Wayne,

You can poke your oar in all you want today - there won't be much company in
here.  ;^)

I would be against starting up any quota/card carrying system because it's
so hard to control and so restrictive for the 98% nice people. Let's not forget
that the problem isn't (yet) the size of the UK Football Hooligan problem.

I agree with dan'l and others that the best thing to do is ignore them since
what they want is attention.  Carry a pin in case the doll comes too close
too many times, ;^)

Otherwise, if the problem still persists, just get more cops and kick 'em out.
They must be pretty sick anyways to do such things with a blow up doll.

After all, it's your National Pastime, and if your wife wants to leave in the
7th inning because she's uncomfortable, that's crazy.

rick

After re-reading my earlier reply, I realise that it might be open to a
misunderstanding.

What I meant to say was that the problems we have/had here in England can not
be compared to the problems that you are now experiencing in the States. 
However, I am not trying to trivialise what is happening there. Basically, I
am saying that whatever, it should be sorted out/stopped, before its too late.

Wayne - who forgot they had a holiday on July 4th for some reason or other ;)

 Wayne,
 
 You make a good point but isn't there more to it than just noting a
 difference in fan behavior ???
 
 For example, it's widely believed that a big reason for soccer
 hooliganism in England is the age and design of some of your older
 stadiums.    That is, they have a substantial amount of standing-room
 only seating which is where the worst of the rowdies congregate.
 
 Here, we have almost no SRO seating whatsoever.   Nearly everyone,
 even day-of-the-game general admission patrons, have an assigned
 indiviudal seat.   That doesn't eliminate all drunkeness and all
 violence but it does eliminate overcrowding and it helps considerably
 in cutting down the "mob" factor that, I believe, leads to your worst
 soccer incidents.
 
 That is one thing that Ms English did not consider.   Namely, how
 much *worse* the doll incident could have been had it occured in a
 mob-like, SRO section of a crowd.    Could have been brutal.
 
 Bob Hunt

 Bob,

  you are so right when you mention the state of Stadiums here, but they are
getting better (slowly). Also, the English seem to have this 'pack' thing where
bye they think along lines of protecting there territory, and trying to 
establish some sort of superiority. During the 70's, the most common form of
toilet wall graffitti was which teams supporters were the tougher.

  Regarding Ms. English and her comments,  do you think that the way she
puts over quite valid points is detrimental to way people perceive these
situations ? If I read about something in one of the 'gutter press tabloids'
or here one of these extreme jounalists on the T.V. over here, I switch off,
and go do something else (Not because I disagree or don't beleive what they are
saying, but because the way they are saying it ). So I miss the point, and they 
missed their chance. I suppose that for every one like me there are two or three
who sit up and take notice ( or jump on the bandwagon ).

  My personal feelings (but then I am a 6'2 - 200 pound male) are to either
ignore these prats, or laugh at (AT, not with) them. I guess that is not so 
easy when you are female, and have to think of things that I can't possibly 
comprehend properly.

  Not that I think the Teams or the Stadia' personelle have anything to do with
these things, but they should do a lot more to stop it. It will be a whole lot 
better for everyone, in the long run.

Regards,
Wayne

�   Regarding Ms. English and her comments,  do you think that the way she
� puts over quite valid points is detrimental to way people perceive these
� situations ? 
 
 For me, it was the way she juxtaposed two separate sets of quite
 valid points in an attempt to generalize a global "truth" she
 believes.    She first described the idiots and their blow-up dolls
 at Fenway and *then* she described this country's serious problem
 with violence against women.
 
 I don't question either set of points she made.   Yes, they were
 idiots and, yes, there's far too much violence against women.   What
 I questioned was the connection she made between the two.    To me,
 it seemed to be a threadbare attempt to squeeze off an "All Men Are
 Pigs" shot.   I *do* resent that implication.
 
 If she had written an article that was titled "Fenway Bozos 'Blow'
 It Big Time", I could have accepted it.   If she had written an
 article titled "National Rape Statistics Are Horrifying", I could
 have accepted it.   She tried to do both and she lost me in the
 process.
 
 There are 100,000 or so rapes in this country every year.   And,
 sadly, there are probably 'X' times that many that go unreported.  
 But, there are 50 million or so men in this country.   Obviously,
 we're not all rapists.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Sox management is doing something about it.  I was listening to the
    game Wednesday night, and there was a fairly detailed description of
    "not tolerated" activities at the park (immediately after the
    announcement of where to get tickets).  Left me feeling a lot better
    about going to the game, which was the whole point.  Let's face it, the
    blurb was targetted at folks like me who would reconsider going to the
    game after the latest round of publicity.
    
    
    I think part of the reason that there has been such reaction to the
    incident is that we *don't* want to see things get worse, and do want
    to continue to feel free to bring families to the game.
    
    
    A&W

    I was at the game on Thursday night and after the top of the first
    inning, where Sherm makes his futile announcement about interfering
    with balls in play he read the statement about the activities.
    
    I was sitting in Section 11 on Thursday and saw fewer beachballs than
    I'd seen all year, saw no fights and saw a very well-behaved family
    crowd (except for a couple of drunks on field level way down in front
    of me who tried to lead the crowd in cheers and who were promptly
    escorted out).  If every crowd was like the Thursday crowd there
    wouldn't be any trouble at all.
    
    John

 �   I was sitting in Section 11 on Thursday and saw fewer beachballs than
 �   I'd seen all year, ...
 
 They probably heard you were gonna be at the game ...
 
 Bob Hunt

    You don't see a lot a Black folks at Fenway, and believe me safety has
    a lot to do with it.  Besides the fact that the Sox never seems to have
    more than one or two Black ballplayers on the team, you don't feel
    comfortable or safe there.  The last time i went to Fenway, Jim Rice
    was playing, and how the hell i'am going to be comfortable with people
    hollering Nigger this and sambo that at Rice.  I'am a big man, and i
    wasn't looking for anybody to protect me, and to tell them 'shame on
    you'....but i was damn sure sitting there steaming, watching my back,
    and ready to knock the crap out of somebody.  Who want's to PAY to go
    thru that?  I grew up going to Braves games, watching Hank Aaron, Rico
    Carty, and the 'baby bull' Cepada.  That was in the 'Deep South' and i
    never felt like i did at Fenway. Best fans in baseball my ass.  I
    wanted the Sox to knock off that As two years ago, but I was so glad
    that Dave Stewart went out and smoked the Sox after the Sh*t the 'best
    fans in baseball' were yelling at him in bullpen before that game. 
    Buying a ticket to a game don't entitle or excuse you from everything.
    What's fun to some, is serious business to others.  It ain't about
    bringing racial this or that platforms to the baseball, it's just about
    paying your money to go see a ball game and not having to feel like
    it's a three hour endurance test - you want to relax and enjoy
    yourself, yell at the umps, watch a sucker throw it 95 miles an hour,
    and watch somebody knock onto the Pike.  

    
    re: .89
    
    I can't walk a mile in your shoes but.....
    
    I don't doubt that you've heard some pretty rotten stuff at the games,
    but could you also say that the fans who said them were pretty much in
    the minority of those in attendance?  Yeah, I know the "one bad apple"
    thing, but I think you're being unfair to the majority of good fans. 
    And I do believe they are a majority.
    
    Dickstah
    

    I can't disagree with that...99 percent just want to see Roger smoke
    Cancesco three times swinging and see Boggs dent the wall a few times.
    But, i wonder what caves some of them crawl out of.  I love the game
    and you can't blame anybody, because it could happen anywhere, but the
    experience and a couple of hot dogs don't sit well in your stomach.

    Re -.2
    
    It's more than one bad apple, I'm afraid.  Or even just a few bad
    apples.  It isn't the majority, thought, either.
    
    This type of crap happens at other than baseball and football games.
    Or BB or hockey, too.  It seems to happen at MOST all public
    gatherings, including the local fireworks last week.  People were
    setting off their private fireworks while in a crowd!  Kids were
    injured, families were frightened away.  It's part of some vague idea
    some people have that they can exercise their *rights* anywhere and
    anytime they wish to do so.  Foul language in front of small children.
    
    We went to a cookout last weekend at a beach.   The wife and I went for
    a walk, away from the group we were with.  It was about 2 in the
    afternoon.  Some jerk was mad at his fishing buddy because his catch
    got away.  He was using every foul word he could think of. 
    Fortunately, his repeated used of the F work was a clear indication
    that his vocabulary didn't even have too many foul words in it, never
    mind normal verbs, adverbs and adjectives.  Anyway, we tried to get
    away from this pair, and we finally had to just wait and let them pass. 
    Once they were downwind, we couldn't hear them.  I wasn't about to take
    them on by myself.  But it sure p*ssed me off.  What really offended my
    wife was that she noticed two young teen-age girls who must have heard
    them, too.
    
    Freedom - ain't it grand?  I guess this is becoming the price we have
    to pay in order to stay away from a police state.  Wonder how it was
    done in the past?
    
    One things for sure, it's much more difficult to shame someone today
    than it used to be.  Perhaps that's a small part of the problem.
    
    lEe

    LEAZAH::RANDERSON brought back some painful memories vis a vis Jim
    Rice. Damned but some people can be jerks.
    
    It reminds me of the flack Jim Eisenreich got from the Fenway bleachers
    (a few jerks in the bleachers) when he was having that nerve trouble.
    Jim was with the Twins then and was having a seizure in CF. A bunch of
    the jerks started chanting, pointing and laughing at him. Naturally,
    every member of the Twins, from that point on, made a judgement about
    Boston fans that was based on a few jerks.
    
    I also recall the crap Mickey Rivers used to through in CF. Wore his
    helmet out there. Jerks were throwing pieces of metal and firecrackers
    at him.
    
    I recall hearing some pretty nasty things being yelled at George Scott.
    Same for John Wyatt and Julio Valdez. Picturte yourself as a black or
    hispanic in the stands while this is going on. Ouch!
    
    Lee is right. There seems to be a total lack of respect for other
    people today. "I paid good money and I'm gonna do whatever the %$#^ I
    feel like!". Little things like shopping in a mall and escorting your
    family past foulmouthed groups of teenagers can get scarey.
    
    Anybody ever ride the subway in NYC? First rule of survival is to stare
    blankly ahead at NOTHING - if you haven't got a newspaper. If you have
    the paper, you bury your head in it.
    
    I dunno, I've been to games in St. Louis, NY, Baltimore, Atlanta and
    Chicago. And I've never felt so close to the action as at Fenway. I've
    had some of the best conversations in my life with people sitting
    around me in Fenway. Most of the people there are the greatest fans
    I've ever seen. But that handful of people can make things lousy.
    
    Based on John's experience Thursday night, I hope that authority comes
    down hard on the majority's right to enjoy a game in the spirit of fun.
    
    Rich
    

I just go to Fenway to yell at Kevin Romine.  He's white, so I guess it's
okay 8^)

Seriously, people are just jerks.....


'Saw

    Without the jerks in this world, you wouldn't be able to appreciate
    great people like myself.
    
    	--dan'l

    'Saw, I used to rag on Dewey, too. But I never included epithets
    regarding his race, religion, family ....
    
    Rich
    

Well, Rich, I was being funny, or trying to, because at one Patriots Day
game I too succombed to the Demon Alcohol, and while the Red Sox were losing
15 or so to zip, I thought I saw Kevin Romine dog it after a bawl.
From that point on, I started a never-ending rampage against him, calling
him a waste of skin.....


Personally, I don't feel there's ANY place for racial slurs or yelling about
the problems in someone's life.  If you wanna call the guy a bum because
you think he plays lousy, then call the guy a bum.  Calling him a
"nigger" or "spic" or whatever the derogatory terms are these days are
in poor taste.  

Then again, society has been going downhill for years so what can we
expect......


later,
'Saw

    Rich, those instances from the past you've related make me wonder if
    things really have gotten worse at the ballpark or if old-timer's
    disease has set in with all of us.  The rowdiness and drunkenness may
    be as bad as it ever was, if not worse, but you rarely see anyone
    throwing dangerous articles at the ballplayers anymore as some players 
    back to the 1940's have described happening.
    
    From a few back (RANDERSON), it's a damn shame that you've been made to
    feel unwelcome at the park based on the racist remarks directed by some
    at the players.  I can certainly understand why you'd feel that way. 
    On behalf of the large majority who frequently attend games and who
    harbor no such feelings, though, I'd encourage you and your family to
    continue to come back if you want to see baseball and are able to 
    withstand the rantings of a few morons.  You're correct that there are
    very few black persons regularly in attendance, but I think the best
    way to change that and people's ignorant perceptions is to keep coming 
    back until it sinks in.  I believe there's only one black in the area 
    where I sit (a few seats down from me) and he's one of the more 
    knowledgeable, intelligent and popular fans in the section, and I hope 
    to hell he doesn't eventually come to feel unwanted in Fenway because 
    it'd be a loss all the way around.  
    
    > Based on John's experience Thursday night, I hope that authority comes
    > down hard on the majority's right to enjoy a game in the spirit of fun.
    
    I also hope that the trend does not swing excessively in the opposite
    direction, though, where people are ejected for "leading cheers" (as
    John described; I'm sure there was more to it than that).  It is a
    baseball game, after all, and getting the crowd into the game and even
    the riding of opposition players in good taste is all part of the fun
    for me.  Saturday, for example, Pete Incaviglia was getting it pretty
    good from the centerfield bleachers, and he was smiling and loving it.
    I hope we don't see people starting to get the boot for hurling the
    occasional witty barb at the opposing player.  At least where I sit, a
    couple of guys have made incisive heckling an art form, and the
    overwhelming majority of patrons eat it right up, as do many of the
    "victims"...
    
    glenn
    

    The thing about Thursday was that the security didn't seem to be any
    greater than usual, it just seemed like Thursday's game was so family
    oriented that no one was getting out of hand.  
    
    The guys who attempted to lead the cheers were obviously drunk because
    one of them proudly held up a stack of empty beer cups.  If they drank
    all those beers themselves they probably went broke before they got
    drunk.  
    
    John

    Often in Fenway I have lifted up my head and scanned the people in the
    stands.  The lack of black people who attend games there is strange
    indeed.  This past weekend I was in Yankee Stadium for the first time
    in three or four years and did the same thing.  I'd estimate one in
    four or five fans is black there.  But in Fenway, there are times when
    there's not a black fan in eyesight.
    
    How can this be?
    
    Dan

    > How can this be?
    
    I think there are two major reasons.  The first and the one that
    management is responsible for is the Red Sox' shameful record over 
    the years in developing and/or acquiring black talent.  The second is 
    that Fenway, unlike many other old parks situated within city limits, 
    is in and is adjacent to overwhelmingly white neighborhoods where 
    blacks may not have traditionally felt comfortable.
    
    It's funny (curious, not humorous) that in Pittsburgh where the Pirates 
    have always been heavy into development of minority (black and Latin) 
    players, the sentiment I often heard expressed and that I believe was a 
    factor in some years of lean attendance was "there's too many n----- on
    that team".  That's the opposite effect that you see in Boston.  It
    just goes to show you that racism is everywhere, but as a business or
    organization you don't have to sell out to it...
    
    glenn
    

    Yeah, why should i not go to ball park, because of a couple of knuckle
    heads, i love the game, it's probably what they want.  But, i don't
    know about bringing the family.
    
    Heckling is part of the game, i have no objection to that...your team's
    players, the other teams players, the umps, the mascot, the managers,
    the ballboy...but, when they start throwing around the N-word around I
    lose it.  I pretty thick-skinned, but i can't handle that...veins start
    poping in the neck.  Why people have to resort to that ignorant stuff
    at a ball game, i don't know.  It's just that i'am older now, i don't
    want to get in a beef and get locked-up or something.  But screw 'em,
    now that the 'Hit Dog' is there, i'am going.
    
    ra

    Good for you, ra.  
    
    One item that I still don't understand is why professional sporting
    arenas and stadiums and parts and all find it necessary to sell beer.
    
    I like my suds, although I've tapered off quite a bit over the past
    year or so.  I really don't know why, but I have.  Anyway, why are suds
    sold at these facilities?  I don't see it happening at softball
    tournaments that I've attended, or other such events where the
    participants are of the non-professional level.  But, I must admit that
    I don't attend a lot of these events, either.
    
    Anyway, is beer sold at Track and Field meets, for the most part?
    
    How about other types of sporting events?  Any input?
    
    lEe

         
    > One item that I still don't understand is why professional sporting
    > arenas and stadiums and parts and all find it necessary to sell beer.
    
    It's continued for no other reason than tradition, really.  Baseball
    and beer go back together to before the turn of the century.
    
    However, I think those that have called for the banning of beer sales
    at ballparks in the past underestimate the effect it would have on both
    attendance and fan behavior.  Granted it would cut pretty well into
    pure profit for the ballclub because of the gouging that takes place
    (which doesn't concern me as a fan), but I think that this kind of a
    policy that punishes the many for the behavior of a few irresponsibles 
    would turn a lot of people off, including myself, on the principle that
    it detracts, however slightly, from the enjoyment of the ballpark
    experience and by no fault of my own.  If you think about it, by the
    same logic, shouldn't the sale of alcohol at bars be banned, since from
    time to time it interferes with the comfortable social interaction of
    the patrons (the core reason why most go to bars) and can wreak so much
    other havoc on society?
    
    At the ballpark, I think you'd also get a situation similar to Foxboro
    where the hard-core rowdies get tanked beforehand and/or bring in small
    liquor bottles, so I'm not sure you'd help promote the family
    atmosphere with a ban on beer sales in the park.  Has anyone actually 
    ever purchased that low-alcohol swill they sell at Foxboro, anyway?   ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    re .98
    
    Excellent note, Glenn.
    
    re Black fans at Fenway.
    
    Dan, you are correct in that few blacks attend games at Fenway. And,
    most likely for the reasons already noted. However, I have also seen
    this in St. Louis where the stadium is in the heart of downtown. And,
    during my trips to Atlanta I have seen the same thing.
    
    Could it be that baseball is perceived by the black community as a
    white sport dating back to the pre Jackie Robinson days? Your point is
    valid, Dan, but I think the wordage you used inferred that Fenway is
    the only place this happens.
    
    However, perhaps Dan has opened a sore that deserves further
    discussion. How many blacks attend Celtics, Bruins and Patriots games?
    When one considers that more than half of the Patriots' team is black
    and that basketball is dominated by black athletes, is the Boston area
    reprentative with the rest of the country?
    
    Perhaps we can get some input from our fellow noters from Los Angeles
    and Denver. 
    
    Rich
    

       
    > However, perhaps Dan has opened a sore that deserves further
    > discussion. How many blacks attend Celtics, Bruins and Patriots games?
    > When one considers that more than half of the Patriots' team is black
    > and that basketball is dominated by black athletes, is the Boston area
    > reprentative with the rest of the country?
    
    But at least attending a Red Sox game can still be affordable, as
    opposed to the others.  And while overt racism may or may not be worse 
    in Boston than in other places, I think that one thing that is undeniable
    is that class division very much is, which makes money a part of the
    equation...
    
    glenn
    

    There may well be many reasons for this, and one may be the particular
    reason why I don't go too often.  It's because I'd like to take my wife
    with me, but I don't want to take her to such places knowing that if I
    do get in, it's going to be with seats in Right Field, or the upper
    balcone at the Garden.  As far as the Pats are concerned, it's just too
    far and takes almost the whole day for me to go from Haverhill. 
    Expensive, too, and then all I'll get is end-zone seats.
    
    Where do the crazies *seem* to congregate?  Endzone, upper balcony,
    right field.  I'm not saying that anyone in one of these areas is a
    looney, but perhaps the percentage of loonies is much lower between the
    35 yd lines, or between 1st and 3rd base, etc.  
    
    Season tickets are not the answer, either.  A friend of mine has had
    them for the Celts for over 12 years, and he's still sitting behind the
    basket.  
    
    So, TV is my answer.  Until, that is, it's pay-only.  Then, back to
    radio, if at all.  
    
    Ya know, it's during discussions like this that I begin to realize why
    my interest in sports in on the wane.  Heck, I hardly even listen in to
    a Tigers game anymore, even when they're at Fenway.
    
    lEe

       Wait'll Larry retires and the Yuppies turn in their tickets. He'll
    be able to sit nexted to Red.
                                      Denny

    re. 105
    
    I don't think Fenway represents the rest of the country.  When i went
    to Braves games, many Blacks were in attendence.  The Sox have an image
    problem in the Black community....whether it real, or imaged, it's
    there.  For one, they never had many Black players. And the one they've
    had, such as Rice and Burks are not out-going types that branched out
    into the community.  Rice once missed a banquet for kids at the Roxbury
    Boys club and lost a lot of fans.  Burks and Rice are reserved, keep to
    them self types, thus they never cultivated any relationships in the
    community.  
    
    For two, it preceived that the Sox and the press are more critical of
    the Black players they have had, and run them off....i.e. Reggie Smith,
    Lee Smith, Oil Can, Cecil Cooper.  The community is still bitter about
    Lee Smith...why go out and get a closer when you have a first-rate
    closer...when you don't have a 4th starter, or a shortstop.  And now
    Lee has 23 saves at St Louis.  Even though Readon is doing a good job,
    what's the point, when you already had that.  The feeling is that Burks
    will never reach his potential playing in Boston, and it is felt that
    his liabilities are always highlighted and he doesn't get the credit he
    deserves.
    
    Jack Clark vs Joe Carter.  People are bitter about that....people feel
    that Carter is 10 times better all-around ball player, and preceive
    that the Sox could have had him if they really tried, but that they
    never go after the Black ballplayer...they never go after the speed,
    Willie Mcgee, Willie Wilson, etc....the feeling is that they never take
    a chance on the Black ball player.
    
    Mo Vaughn,  the feeling is "about time", why the hell did it take so
    long
    
    Reggie Harris, the feeling is, how the hell can you let a young kid
    with that much raw talent get away who can throw 95 miles an hour, and
    you keep bringing up these duds over and over again.
    
    Even though Rice wasn't that popular, people didn't like the way he was
    treated by the fans, the press, or the organization.
    
    A lot of this is myth, a lot of it is conjecture, but is the perception
    that the Sox have in the Black community.  It ain't good.

    A couple of more things that people didn't like:  Tommy Harper, and
    that whole thing with the Winter Haven Elks Club - and how they ran
    Harper off after he went public.
    
    The Boomer.  He's been trying to get back in the organization for years
    as a coach, but nah, hah...
    
    They have a hell of a P.R. problem in the community.  But why should
    they care when they're going to draw the two mill anyway.  
    
    It just an answer to the question: why you don't see a lot of Blacks at
    Fenway.
    
    ra

    LEZAH::RANDERSON has brought up some very valid points concerning the
    Red Sox orgainzation. The more I think about it, the more I believe
    that racism is ingrained into the organization from front office to
    bush league scouts.
    
    Why don't the Sox cultivate more Hispanic players. I recall seeing the
    New Britain Red Sox a few years back and they had 5 or 6 Hispanics. I
    wonder now what happened to them.
    
    With the wealth of talent coming out of the Dominican Republic, why
    don't the Sox have a scout down there? 
    
    When one looks at the International League, why are the rosters of
    Syracuse (Toronto), Columbus (NY Yankees), Scranton Wilkes-Barre
    (Phillies), Toledo (Tigers), Tidewater (Mets), Richmond (Braves) and
    Rochester (Orioles) intermingled with blacks and hispaniocs while
    Pawtucket looks, for all intents and purposes, like the 1939 Red Sox -
    color wise.
    
    The only time in their history when the Red Sox did not make a big deal
    about race, in my opinion, was 1967 with Dick Williams in the dugout
    and Dick O'Connel wheeling and dealing. They had Scott, Joe Foy, Jose
    Tartabul, Johnny Wyatt, traded for Elston Howard and, I think, 2 or 3
    other "minorities". They won a pennant and gave us all alot of
    excitement. Sure Yaz and Lonborg got the lions' share of adulation but
    the whole team came through. Anybody recall Tartabul throwing out Ken
    Berry of the White Sox at home with Howard blocking the plate?
    
    .110 is correct, though. It seems as though the Sox have had no more
    than 2 blacks on the squad for years. Today it is Burks and Vaughan.
    Before it was Rice and Lee Smith. It seems as though the organization
    would rather pack up and quit rather than have an all black outfield.
    
    This is not to say that the Red Sox have lacked for talent. On the
    contrary, Boston has had a contender on the field for most all of the
    last 20 years. They have had some damned good players. But I think the
    subtle racist makeup of the top office prevents them from adding the
    final piece of the puzzle like a Carter, Winfield or Fielder.
    
    Rich
    

    As far as community outreach goes, there was an interesting article in
    the Phoenix (a Boston weekly) about a year ago.  The Red Sox response
    to community outreach is, always has been and probably always will be
    the Jimmy Fund, their official charity.  For those who don't know, the
    Jimmy Fund is set up to support the Dana-Farber Cancer Institute, which
    does research into childhood cancer.
    
    There is nothing wrong with the Jimmy Fund in and of itself but the
    perception (both from the article and from LEZAH::RANDERSON) is that
    the Red Sox can and should be doing more, particularly in the minority
    community.  They do help support the Boston Park League (summertime
    semipro baseball for college age players and older) but that's the only
    other thing I know of.  I don't know of any commercial tie-in they have
    where a business donates money to anything but the Jimmy Fund.
    
    What else should the Red Sox be doing and why?  My personal opinion is
    that teams are asked to do far more in whatever community they reside
    than is humanly possible and I think the Red Sox have chosen a good
    charity to help out, and I don't know what or who else they should
    help.
    
    John

    re .111
    
    Forgot Reggie Smith from the 1967 squad. BTW - he is a great answer to
    a trivia question. Reggie Smith was the starting 2nd baseman for the
    Red Sox on Opening Day that year.
    
    Rich
    

    What i hear is not exactly a scientfic poll, it's a bunch of old-timers
    sitting around the barber shop, a little buzzed, talking baseball. 
    it's hilarious, guys who claim they saw 'Cool Papa' Bell hit the ball
    to the pitcher and get a triple.  But, it's the best gauge i have as to
    how the Sox are preceived.

    Ra, your view isn't really much different from I've heard and read over
    the past 15 years or so.  I'd venture to say it would have been more
    than 15 years, except these type of things weren't brought out in the
    media back then.  At least, not as much as nowdays.
    
    Anyway, I truly wish that the Sox would trade Ellis Burks, and just for
    his own sake.  While his being a black in a Boston uniform is part of
    the issue, it's also that he's a product of the kind of hype that is so
    damn typical of boston newspapers.  They always seem to tout their
    younger players to the point that anything less than a triple crown or
    an MVP award is considered as a failure.  I think Burks would do better
    if he were away from the spotlight, so to speak.  Is this true in other
    BB cities?  I've seen it for a loooooong time, and it's one of the
    reasons that I never became a Sox fan.  In fact, it's turned be against
    the Sox as a team, even though I'm able to be a fan of individual
    players, such as Jim Rice, Ellis Burks, Jimmy Piersall, Ted Williams,
    Pete Runnells, George Scott, Wade Boggs, El Tiante, and others.  Some 
    were popular with the press, others were not.  All I cared about was 
    their ability to play the game, the hell with the Sox record.
    
    When I'd see the print given to such noteables as Lou Clinton, Norm
    Zauchin, Rich Gedman, Billy Consolo, and far too many young pitchers,
    it would really get me ticked off.  Not at the player himself, but at
    the press and the fans who would repeat the same crap to me while
    trying to convert me from a Tiger fan to a Sox follower.  The pressure
    that this put on many young players was incredible, and most failed in
    their bid for a job in the "bigs".  I can't help think that the
    pressure had a lot to do with it.  Some people can take it, others
    can't.  Not the pressure of the game, but the pressure to excel before
    they've even learned the game at this level.
    
    lEe

    Boy, Lee, you got that right when you talk about pressure.
    
    I remember a kid the Sox had in the late 50's named Frank Baumann. The
    guy was touted as the next Bob Feller. Relentless hype in the papers.
    The kid couldn't take it. Remember Bobby Sprowel? The kid was runined
    by the atmosphere.
    
    I don't think the media in Boston is any worse than New York, Chicago
    or Philadelphia. But, perhaps, those other teams do a better job of
    preparing players while in the minor leagues.
    
    Rich
    

    Yeah, i agree with Burks...before this year, the guy would hit .280,
    with 20 homers and 80 RBIs, and play gold glove center field, and all that
    would be in the paper is: "When is Ellis Burks going to play up to his
    potential", and the whole burden of the Sox not stealting bases is his
    fault.  The guy never complains, never runs off at the mouth, and comes
    to play everyday.  It's always, " he had a good year, but...when's he
    going to have an MVP-type year"...hell, when's Greenwell or Boggs going
    to have one.  I think playing in Boston has grinded him down.
    
    

 Boggs had five or six MVP seasons already...just ask him...

    Most excellent suggestion, Hawk!  Where *do* the Fenway bleachers fit 
    into the Book of Revelations and Nostradamus' predictions?
    
    glenn
    

Very simple explanation, as any of you Biblical scholars should know.

See, when God told Lot not to look back at Soddom and Gamorrah, it wasn't
because God came down and did a hocus-pocus hoochie coo over it, or
even nuked it, as Carl Sagan claims.  God was much more elegant than
that....

God took and time warped old Soddom and Gamorrah right into the bleachers
at Fenway Park.

THAT'S how it fits in....


'Saw

    'Saw,
    	And don't fergit that God was already PO'd because Onan was,ahem,
    wasting his seed in Sodom.
    
    MikeL
    

	You know all this talk about the rowdy crowd at Fenway got me to 
thinking.  I've been watching this Judas Priest trial on the Court Channel 
(the one where the parents of these suicidal kids are trying to prove that 
Priest's subliminal messages caused the kids to off themselves), and was 
wondering if maybe this could be happening in Fenway.  What I did was tape 
John Kiley for a week and then played his songs backwards at varying speeds.
Well what I found was shocking!

	Played backwards and discounting certain background noises I could 
swear that I heard things like "objectify women", "bounce blow up dolls 
around", "boo black players" and "act obnoxious".  When I played "Take Me 
Out To The Ballgame", usually played during the 7th inning stretch, 
backwards I could make out "hurry up and buy another beer, the stands are 
closing soon!"  This kind of subliminal tinkering disgusts me, and to think 
that John Kiley would allow this to happen is heinous!

	Curiosity got the better of me so I went out and bought some Judas 
Priest albums and played them backwards and was equally surprised at what I 
heard.  I definitely heard things like "Be a good sport", "Don't rock the 
boat" and "Drink responsibly".  So my suggestion for crowd control at 
Fenway is to play Judas Priest songs and fire that scoundrel John Kiley.

				/Don

    Yeah, I watched a little of that trial too.  Some of those testifying
    are really too funny with this backwards stuff.  Did you ever see the
    people who were complaining about backwards Madonna?  Well, I guess it
    keeps these loonie tunes off the streets.
    
    As for my part, I'm gonna picket outside Fenway demanding that John
    Kiley be beheaded.
    
    Dan

 A few years ago, Jay Leno used to tell a joke that said something
 like this ...
 
 	"I played my 'Twisted Sister' album backwards just the other
 	day and it said ... 'Go to church' and 'Pray on Sundays'".
 
 Bob Hunt

    
    Last weekend I went to the beach with my kids, y'know, and they were
    throwing around a beachball, and I was trying to watch the scenery and,
    y'know, just kinda enjoy the day.  But we kept getting disturbed by all
    these obnoxious people all around us who were playing baseball.  They
    were hitting flies and bunting and sliding all around me.  The last
    straw was when I went into the water to do the waves and got clocked by
    a wild pitch, so I picked up their baseball and bit the cover off. 
    That'll teach 'em.
    
    Dickstah
    

    RE: last few
    
    I thought that Judas Priest won that suit that was brought against
    them?  Is this a re-trial?
    
    Getting back to Fenway/blow-up dolls, etc., I can accurately report
    that Fenway has posted signs with specific language about blow up
    'objects' not being admitted to the park (amongst other things).
    
    Jo

    
    See, there are a lot of rugby parallels here too....