Conference 7.286::sports_91

    Well Barry Bonds is trying to get the Dave Parker Massive Mouth of the
    Year award already.  Bonds told the media here that if he goes to
    arbitration next month instead of getting a long term contract from the
    Bucs, he WILL leave Pittsburgh after the 1992 season.
    
    He reportedly wants $5 million a year.  Funny how one good year goes to
    somebody's head, and wallet for that matter, eh?
    
    I figure that since these statements were made, the Bucs will have
    Bonds on the trade block pretty soon.  If he plays for the Bucs this
    year, it wouldn't suprise me to see an eveready shower in left field.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    	But JaKe, sometimes you got to wonder if all those players who
    complained were wrong and the Pittsburgh management right.  I would
    pay him the money.
    
    				/Don

    /Don
    
    I still don't see where one good year after 2 or 3 VERY mediocre(at
    best) years justifies paying a guy $5 mil a year GUARANTEED!!!!
    
    I could see it if Bonds had played up to the level he played at last
    year for the one or two years previous, BUT, the 2 previous years he
    played like a platoon player with a sh!tload of potential.  If they
    give him the $5 Mil and he reverts back to that style, it would be the
    biggest mistake the Bucs could make, after the Dave Parker fiasco of
    the early '80's.  I could see paying him say, $3.5 kil with incentive
    clauses, but not $5 Mil.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Even in today's world of highly-paid, self-publicizing athletes, Barry
    Bonds is fast becoming intolerable.  I think the crying spell on Roy
    Firestone's ESPN show sealed it for me.  Hell of a ballplayer, one I'd
    love to see play everyday, but see him on TV with a mike in front of 
    his face and it's time to switch channels, fast...
    
    glenn
    

    He was on ESPN last night and said he was misquoted.
    
    He said he wanted a 5 year contract.  He then asked someone with
    the numbers being thrown out out there, what did the guy think he
    would get on the open market.  The guy (don't know if it was a
    management type or not) said $5 million maybe, and Barry said,
    "Well, there you go...".  
    
    I don't think he's worth $5 million. (Is anyone?)  I'd give him
    $3-$3.5 million and sign him for 3 or 4 years.  The guy can play.

    I agree Bonds is a good player but he's a DUD in the clubhouse.
    
    One example was his open criticism of Jeff King DURING the NLCS for not
    playing with a sprained back.  I feel he should have kept his big mouth
    shut and played his best, which he was far from doing in the NLCS.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    
    
    	It's simply a sign of the times...
    
    	The Pirates could very well be doomed in Pittsburgh.  They clearly
    have one of the smallest population bases and in todays market, that
    can kill a team.
    
    	In the paper yesterday, it was stated that the Pirates generate 
    between 5-10 mil off of radio/TV.  Now compare that with the 50+mil
    that the Yankees get from TV/radio and it only figures that some 
    teams will suffer.  Granted they will get 15 mil from the Network TV
    contract, but their salaries totaled 15.5 mil last year.  It's also
    a fact that the Buc's never really draw that well.  Even when they are
    winning, Three Rivers rarely has 45K in it.  It's great for those of
    us who come home for a visit and can get decent seats on gameday, but
    it doesn't do much for the overall problem.
    
    	Bonds is just the latest to want "his".  Bonilla also will command
    a large salary, and how will they manage that?
    
    	It's a sad situation, but the Pirates could eventually move from
    the steel city just to stay afloat!
    
    								bill..g.
    

    Goose,
    
    
    	I really hope it never comes to that.  Pittsburgh Steelers
    has been an integral piece of making the NFL what it is today! 
    Unfortunately, in today's super money grubbing, ridiculous salary
    structure, I don't believe that the team could expect any kind of
    $$ supports.
    
    Hope they stay.
    
    Kev
    

    >>    <<< Note 92.9 by CSTEAM::FARLEY "Have YOU seen Elvis today??" >>>
    
    >>	I really hope it never comes to that.  Pittsburgh Steelers
    >>has been an integral piece of making the NFL what it is today! 
    
    Kev, Not to nitpick or anything but this is the PIRATES note, ya know
    baseball, throw the ball hit with bat make a zillion dollars a year for
    hitting .245 and making errors out your a$$.
    
    The Steelers are over in good ole note # 35.
    
    JaKe
    

    re .8
    
    I don't get it Goose. Granted the Pirates don't draw a lot of people,
    but Fenway's top capacity is 35,000. Three Rivers is much bigger
    (55,000 ?), why are they operating on a shoestring (relatively
    speaking) ?

>    I don't get it Goose. Granted the Pirates don't draw a lot of people,
>    but Fenway's top capacity is 35,000. Three Rivers is much bigger
>    (55,000 ?), why are they operating on a shoestring (relatively
>    speaking) ?
    
    Because Fenway usually fills all 35,000 seats.  If 35,000 came to Three
    Rivers for every game of the year, the Bucs would have a ton of cash. 
    If you haven't been to Three Rivers for a baseball game, don't bother. 
    Aside from the terrible traffic and parking that go along with most
    stadiums/parks, it's just a big concrete circle that is so very
    impersonal.  It's just not as much fun to to Three Rivers as it is to
    many other parks.
    
    	--dan'l

    
    Being from Pittsburgh, I don't see the Pirates drawing 35,000 per even
    under the most ideal of stadium conditions, unless (maybe) they're 
    having a great season like last year.  While the Pirates certainly 
    have their share of die-hard fans, there just aren't enough of them 
    in a relatively small population base (but don't let Pittsburgh 
    proper's population of 375K and steadily dropping fool you completely-- 
    there are a lot of people in those hills) to sustain a large attendance 
    for baseball.
    
    Like another favorite city of mine-- Baltimore-- used to be, Pittsburgh
    is first and foremost a football city.  I don't think there's enough
    time, energy, and money to support both sports team to the fullest
    extent.  When the Steelers exploded in the 70's, it hurt the Pirates'
    standing badly.  A previously laughed-at, pathetic franchise (even in
    comparison to the Pirates over most of the post-WWII years) became the
    top dog for good, now selling out every game every year, even in 
    off-years.
    
    The Pirates-to-move rumors aren't anything new.  I remember the same,
    but stronger, talk in the late 70's, but didn't new ownership and a
    World Championship turn that around?  The key to the Pirates' survival
    will be performance, 'cuz if they don't play well in a failing economy,
    there's going very few people at Three Rivers...
    
    glenn
      

    
    
    	I'll also add that one of the Pirates problems over the last 15 
    years has been identity.  Maybe I'm all wet, but when I was growing up,
    every kid I knew identified with some pirate, namely Clemente, Stargell
    or Maz.  Now, I'm talking white kids here that could identify with 
    a Puerto Rican, Black and white.  In the early 70's when the Pirates 
    fielded an all black lineup, that brought some resentment.  That's not
    to lump all of Pittsburgh or their fans as being racist, but I know
    there was some resentment among the fans.  Clemente dies, and Stargell
    takes over the reigns.  Might I add that willie was great in what he
    had to do.  The first major rumblings of decent were with Gene Cline,
    and moved to Doc Ellis and finally erupted with Dave Parker so much so
    that the fans were throwing batteries at him.  Again, I don't think it
    had much to do with the fact that these individuals were black, but
    that they chose to "speak out" and this was uncommon for a Pirate fan.
    Everyone would say, "Clemente would never say that, and Roberto would
    never act like that!"  Same for Stargell.  
    
    	All through the 70's (except for the "family"), I believe the fans
    had a difficult time identifying with the players, hence the small
    turnouts.  Granted, the Pirates had some dismal teams, but to only draw
    a couple of thousand is pretty bad considering they did with two titles
    in the 70's.
    
    	Now we have the 90's where big bucks are the key.  Pittsburgh is
    still a blue collar town where the people drink their Iron City with a
    shot and it is difficult for these people to identify with guys who
    want 1-5 mil per year for playing a game, while the local steel mills
    have went south.  I think identity is a big problem, but maybe I'm wrong.
    
    	Part of the identity problem I believe has to do with the late 
    Pirate broadcaster Bob Prince.  Although he was a homer, he gave every
    Pirate a "label" and usually those labels stuck and as a fan, you began
    to identify that player with his nickname.  Reguardless of Princes'
    ability behind the mic, I really enjoyed the names he came up with, and
    as a fan, I miss that!  It made the game more interesting and personal.
    There were no stats for BA on grass and on turf.  No stats on BA for 
    night or day games, or for a 2 strike count.  The game was a lot
    simpler then as stats didn't mean as much to the average listener as
    we are led to believe today.
    
    	I guess Pittsburgh'ers love nicknames!  Take the Steelers for
    example.  During the 70's and even now, most have nicknames and the
    fans use those names.  Franco's "Italian Army", "Mean Joe" Greene,
    Dwight "mad dog" White, Gerella's Gorillas etc.  I'll never forget a 
    sign the fans used to put up for Jack Ham...it was (excuse my polish) 
    "dobra shanka" which meant "great ham".  Corny, but the fans identified 
    with all these guys.  They wore their numbers on their shirt sleeves.
    
    	To me, part of being a fan, means identifying with the team and its
    players...  To this day, whenever I bat, I still cock my head around
    like Clemente did...I guess we never really grow up!  Heaven forbid!
    
    
    							bill..g.

    Bill,
    
    nice essay.  You may be right; the Pirates' downswing may just have
    been started when Clemente's plane crashed into the ocean.  The city
    loved him for and identified with his work ethic.  But then too they
    still tarnished that love and respect by saying things like, "Man, that
    n_____ could run."
    
    And then the all-black lineup in a very bigotted town (meaning not only
    a resentment of blacks, but of all ethnic groups) to which fans openly
    referred to as the "Nigerian Nine," really gave Pittsburgh an excuse to
    turn away from baseball and embrace football even more.
    
    Somehow, I feel if those nine black players had been playing at Forbes
    Field still in the 70's, nobody would have even raised an eyebrow. 
    Which leads me straight back to the point that Three Rivers has very
    much to do with the demise of attendance.  We tore down a ballpark with
    the mystique of Wrigley and Fenway in leau of some concrete,
    cookie-cutter monstrosity.  
    
    If you want to identify with a player, you must first feel you are part
    of the team.  You certainly don't get this at Three Rivers.  There you
    are only a spectator removed from the action.
    
    	--dan'l

    
    > Somehow, I feel if those nine black players had been playing at Forbes
    > Field still in the 70's, nobody would have even raised an eyebrow. 
    
    Why, Dan'l?  My experience regarding racial division in Pittsburgh
    corresponds very nicely with yours ("separate but equal" might come
    as close as it ever could to being true in Pittsburgh), but I don't
    know why Forbes Field would have changed anything.  Early in his
    career, Clemente was much maligned in Pittsburgh, mostly because of his
    injury record, which was somehow traced back to his ethnic and national
    heritage.  When we were kids, he was a god, but it wasn't always so in 
    Pittsburgh.  I don't see Forbes Field as some kind of a romantic
    panacea to the race-related problems.  Fenway Park hasn't been, has it?
    
    glenn
    

    No, Glenn, the racism would always be there.  My point, that I didn't
    make very well, was that people became disenchanted with going to the
    games once the Pirates moved to Three Rivers.  They used racism as an
    excuse not to go.  It was convenient.  No one wanted to fess up to
    being a lousy baseball town...which it has become regardless.  
    
    But maybe I'm totally off base (ho ho, I made a funny).  I was only
    eight years old when the Bucs moved to Three Rivers.  I never even went
    to Forbes.  How was attendance at Forbes before the move?
    
    All I can identify with is the left field wall still standing and home
    plate presereved in its exact location in Pitt's Forbes Quad Building. 
    But people love to relive the past and I can only imagine what it would
    feel like going to Forbes Field today and looking out at left field,
    closing my eyes, and watching Yoggi Bera turn and run chasing that ball
    and the fans quiet for a moment until...yes, Maz had won the world
    series in the bottom of the ninth.  Now the only thing I can even
    connect with is the colored, upper-level seats that denote Stargell
    homeruns.  
    
    Guess I just feel kind of cheated out of a link the the Pirates of old.
    
    	--dan'l

    
    	I really don't think 3 Rivers Stadium is the problem.  Granted,
    it's pretty boring once inside, but there aint a better postcard view
    in the world than one looking up-river at the "golden Triangle" at 
    night with 3 rivers on the left.  I think the powers to be put the
    stadium where it would best fit the skyline and fit in.  It's pretty
    bland inside, but I really don't mind to much.  The Steeler's play 
    there and the fans don't seem to mind a bit about it either.
    
    	I still say there is a lack of identity and that goes for a lot of
    sports towns.  Not to many people can identify with "joe-player" in 
    his 500 dollar silk suit checking out his investment portfolio.
    
    	Pittsburgh people are still a people who pride themselves in an
    honest day's pay for an honest day's work.  If the players remove 
    themselves from the general community, they tend to become less
    respected.  At least in a small city Pittsburgh.  In NYC and LA, who
    cares if the guy is a jerk because they are all around.  But smaller
    metro areas like Cincy and Pittsburgh really feel that their teams are
    part of a family...at least in Pittsburgh they do.  
    
    	With things the way they are in all sports, I wouldn't be surprised
    to see the Pirates eventually move.  On that day though, I know I will
    surely die.  
    
    	Every year when I venture home, I take in a game if the Bucs are 
    home.  I'm simply shocked that more people don't come out.  Even though
    my parents live a whopping 55 miles from Pittsburgh, if I moved back 
    home, I'd buy season tickets and make the hour drive.  Maybe not every
    home game, but I'd make a good many.
    
    	I guess you never know what you had until it's gone...let's hope 
    that the Pirates never leave the Steel city!
    
    							bill..g.
    

    
>    	I really don't think 3 Rivers Stadium is the problem.  Granted,
>    it's pretty boring once inside, but there aint a better postcard view
>    in the world than one looking up-river at the "golden Triangle" at 
>    night with 3 rivers on the left.  I think the powers to be put the
>    stadium where it would best fit the skyline and fit in.  
    
    Yes, lovely view...one of the nicest in the country.
    
    But Bill et. al., see if you can dig up a copy of "Pittsburgh: Story of
    an American City," First Edition.  The First Edition is key.  It
    was published before the plans for Three Rivers were finalized.  In it
    is a picture of Municiple Stadium...the original plan for that area. 
    It is a beautiful, open-ended park that looked out upon the city.  
    
    I'm sure the Steelers had something to do with nixing these plans to
    raise seating capacity.  Oh what could have been, folks.
    
    	--dan'l

    
    re: dan'l
    
    	Dan'l, I am old enough to remember a little about Forbes and had
    the good fortune to attend the 3 Rivers opening.
    
    	Forbes was a pretty grungy place.  Very similar to Fenway in that
    there were poles everywhere!  It was stuck in the middle of Oakland and
    I think the congestion around it was far worse than anything at 3
    Rivers.  I've always said the highlight of going to Forbes was parking
    in Oakland and watching that cop (who was on Candid Camera) before the
    game started.
    
    	Forbes was also a massive park in that its fences were really out
    there.  At the time, I believe only Yankee stadium had a deeper center
    field.  The brick walls were ivy covered and there was a relatively
    short porch in right.  My biggest highlight at Forbes was seeing
    Willie hit his 7th and what was to be the last ball hit over the 
    double decker seats in right....talk about a moon shot!  Before the
    Pirates moved to 3 Rivers, Willie's wife said that she counted 16 fly
    balls (in just that year) that Willie hit that would of been HR's in the 
    new stadium, but were outs at Forbes.  Ohh, I got a Robeto Clemente
    bat (these were real bats) on "bat day".  Carried that thing around
    like it was the last bat on Earth...never forget the day it cracked!
    
    	As for attendance, Forbes didn't hold that many.  As I recall,
    about the same as Fenway.  I'd also say that they had attendance
    problems there too from what I can remember.
    
    
    							bill..g.
    

    
    Dan'l, I can tell you for a fact that if a refurbished (it would
    have had to have been, because the place was falling apart) Forbes had
    been around when I went back to school in Pittsburgh, I would have gone
    to about ten times the number of games for all the good reasons you've
    given.  But then again, because I was living in Oakland a block off of 
    the Blvd. of the Allies, I was walking along Roberto Clemente Drive,
    over Maz' plaque in the sidewalk and through the remnants of Forbes 
    Field every morning on the way to school.  Otherwise, it must have 
    been a real bitch to get to, even tougher than Fenway.
    
    In retrospect, maybe the design, if not the location, of Three Rivers
    was a mistake.  I agree completely that it's a boring place to see a
    game, and sitting in an empty concrete bowl around the 1982 timeframe 
    watching a mediocre team with an overdue-for-retirement Willie 
    Stargell and an as-yet-unacknowledged drug abuser and talent waster in 
    the form of a bloated Dave Parker wasn't too appealing, even at a buck 
    apiece for student tickets.  But in 1970, when the Pirates moved into 
    Three Rivers, my perception is that the move was warmly welcomed and 
    considered long overdue.  Forbes *was* a dreary place and was falling
    apart, and people were not coming out.  The new ballpark was a
    necessity, but unfortunately as you say, the football dimension 
    resulted in a multi-purpose design of the times.  
    
    I went to Forbes a few times as a young kid, but I don't remember it.
    My dad says that it took a bribe to park somewhere, and then instead of
    buying tickets he'd slip an usher aquaintance a buck or so and be led 
    to a couple of the best seats in the park (there wasn't much demand). 
    Sometimes the guy would even come around during the game with a player
    to meet who'd already finished up or was injured or something.  My 
    father remembers watching a couple of games with Elroy Face that way.  
    Like Bill was pointing out, I think that says it all as to how things
    have changed, beyond the particular stadium surroundings.  And I
    agree that the character of Pittsburgh perhaps demanded that personal
    attention more than in larger cities, and that it's all but gone now...
    
    glenn
    

    Speaking of dads relating stories...
    
    I was born on Sunday, November 10, 1963, in Shadeyside Hospital (funny
    I should get my graduate degree just blocks away).  My dad, driving
    home after I was born (I guess they did that in those days leaving the
    wife and kid behind for a few days), got stuck in Forbes Field traffic
    after the Steelers had just beaten Cleveland.
    
    I couldn't think of a more appropriate time to be born.
    
    	--dan'l

    Forbes Field held about 42k.
    
    I thought the reason for the lousy attendance in 3 Rivers was the
    sh!tty hot dogs!!! (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

    re .14
    
    I saw nothing corny at all in your note. It was a great one, and
    thanks.
    
    I feel the same way about listening to PAdres games on the raido as a
    kid. Dave Winfield, Randy Jones, Gene Richards, and that clown Jerry
    Coleman as an announcer ....
    
    Funny you mention Bob Prince and his style. Many Tiger fans say the
    same things about Ernie Harwell, and Bo Schembecher (sp) is taking a
    serious bashing for dumping him. Frankly, I think the Tigers are going
    to suffer in a big way under Bo.
    
    Two trends I see my crystal ball for the next 15 years :
    
    Baseball will go back to its roots. New ballparks will shoot for
    ambience more, instead of these sterile cookie-cutters you see today.
    Promotions such as the White Sox's "Turn The Clock Back" is just the
    beginning. It will be welcome I'm sure ....
    
    Doc

    (I just caught up with SPORTS and this note again)
    
    1) I didn't see if this was mentioned, but if it was, excuse the
    redundancy...one of the primary Three Rivers Stadium is where it is is
    that's almost exactly where Exposition Park (pre-1909 and Forbes Field)
    was.  I believe that was factored heavily into putting the stadium on
    the north side.
    
    2) I agree with whoever in one of the previous replies said that he
    catches as many games when returning to Pittsburgh as possible.  Living
    in Colorado (which was very convenient when the Bucs were considering
    moving to Denver 5 years ago; I would have, and still would, hate to
    see them leave Pgh., but if they are going to go at least I could see
    them play a lot more) I try to see a game at Three Rivers whenever I
    get back to Pgh.
    
    3) I agree that the rise of the Steelers in the 1970s and the griping
    by Dock Ellis, et al. contributed to the decline in interest in the
    Pirates, but don't forget the drug stuff and resulting publicity in the
    1980s, as well as Dave Parker...I think Parker getting his 5-year
    contract and dogging it for that entire period turned off a lot of
    people to the Pirates as a whole.
    
    Anyway, we'll see how this year goes...
    
    Al

    The Bucs won their arbitration cases against Bonds and Bonilla.
    
    Bonilla was asking for, I think, $3.45/year and got 2.3 mil.
    
    Barry "Mouthy" Bonds, who had earlier stated that he "COULDN'T LOSE IN
    ARBITRATION"  lost and will get $2.3 mil/year also after asking for
    $3.2 mil.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    
    > Barry "Mouthy" Bonds, who had earlier stated that he "COULDN'T LOSE IN
    > ARBITRATION"  lost and will get $2.3 mil/year also after asking for
    > $3.2 mil.
    
    With two years to go for free agency for Bonds, I don't know if the
    Bucs were the "winners" here or not.  I'll be paying special attention
    to see how an already aggravated Bonds responds to this...
    
    And with Bonilla losing his case, the Pirates better get moving and
    fast if they intend on keeping him.  If I were managing the Pirates'
    affairs, I'd commit to Bonilla and let Bonds pout his way to free
    agency if that's the way it's going to be.  I like Bonilla's talent and
    attitude, and his versatility (if not ability) without complaint on 
    defense. 
    
    glenn
    

    Bonds stated before arbitration that if he doesn't get what he wants,
    he will someday go to a team where he could haunt the Pirates.  If he
    keeps flapping his lips, he better wear a batting helmet in the
    outfield because the batteries will be flying.  The people of
    Pittsburgh don't take kindly to talk like this.
    
    As far as Bonilla goes, it would be nice to see him in a Pirates
    uniform for a while, but mark my words, he will be in a Yankee uniform
    within the next three years.
    
    This wouldn't hurt so bad had the GM not messed up toward the end of
    last season and mistakenly put two young, talented outfielders on
    waivers and had to settle on a trade for Carmello Martinez...who was a
    foot away from taking the Bucs to game seven.
    
    Bottom line, however, is I really don't give a darn about Bonds or
    Bonilla as long as the Bucs keep Van Slyke in center.  In my opinion,
    he is the best and most exciting of the three.  If he can continue to
    improve on hitting lefties, Pittsburgh will forget about B&B as long as
    Andy is around.
    
    	--dan'l

    > As far as Bonilla goes, it would be nice to see him in a Pirates
    > uniform for a while, but mark my words, he will be in a Yankee uniform
    > within the next three years.
    
    ... unless Fred "Best Farm System in the League" Claire gets to him
    first and persuades him to join the Dodger All Free Agent team of the
    90s.
    
    I wonder what Syd Thrift thinks of all this.
    
    Dave W.

    Bonilla was offered 3.85 mil a year for 4 years before arbitration so
    maybe he'll talk the bucs into the same deal.
    
    Dan'l,
    I echo your sentiments about Van Slyke.  Truly one of the most exciting
    center fielders in the game.
    
    JaKe
    

    For sale or trade, one slightly used NL MVP.  Low mileage, very good
    performance, tends to act up at times.  Has choke problems.  Reason for
    sale: not worth what we paid for it.
    
    Barry Bonds may have crossed the line yesterday that will make him even
    more hated in Pittsburgh than Dave Parker ever was.
    
    In case you didn't see it on ESPN, the events in Bradenton went
    something like this:
    
    	- Bonds getting into it on the field with the Pirates PR director.
    	  Bonds won't talk to the press or let photographers take pictures
    	  of him, but yesterday he had a private photographer taking
    	  some pics of him in action.  The PR director said the guy had
    	  to go since Bonds had stated his policy of no photographers
    	  earlier.
    
    	  Bonds got in the PR guy's face and was mother f-ing him left
    	  and right about who he was to tell HIM who he could and couldn't
    	  have on the field.  Most of the words out of Bonds' mouth had
    	  to be bleeped.  The PR guy was just doing his job and when he
    	  told Bonds to calm down, Bonds blew up even more.
    
    	- I don't know if the second incident was related to the first,
    	  but Bonds picked the wrong guy.  Apparently he was going at it
    	  with one of the Pirate coaches when Leyland walked onto the
    	  field, overheard the exchange, got into it right there in front
    	  of everyone with Bonds.  Most of that conversation was one big
    	  bleep, but one thing I did manage to pick up was Leyland saying:
    
    		"If you don't want to play, get your bleeeeeeeeeeep stuff
    	  	and get the bleeeeeeeeeep out of here.  I've got a 
    		bleeeeeeeeeeeep team to manage here and I'm not going to
    	 	have bleeeeeeeeeeeep like you bleeeeeeeeeeep."
    
    	  Later on in the clubhouse, Leyland put it bluntly: "I'm the
    	  goddamn manager of this team, and goddamnit I'm going to manage
    	  it,"  or something like that.  (He said that to the press.)
    
    	  And Bonds contradicted himself on SportsCenter when at first he
    	  said that this whole incident has nothing to do with losing
    	  arbitration.  Then a few minutes later, he said I just want to
    	  be paid what I've worked for...even if that's a dollar, I'll
    	  be more than happy.
    
    	  He said he also feels like Darryl Strawberry in New York.  Well,
    	  if he feels like Darryl Strawberry, smells like Darryl
    	  Strawberry, and acts like Darryl Strawberry, he must be...
    	  an asshole.
    
    Battery sales in Pittsburgh have skyrocketed in anticipation of opening
    day ceremonies. :-)
    
    	--dan'l
    	
    	

�    	  He said he also feels like Darryl Strawberry in New York.  Well,
�    	  if he feels like Darryl Strawberry, smells like Darryl
�    	  Strawberry, and acts like Darryl Strawberry, he must be...
�    	  an asshole.

I know how you feel.
Over the last year, I've done almost a complete about face re: Baseball
in Denver. At first I was really excited, and thought it'd be great.
Lately, I've been almost hoping they give the expansion to some other
city. I don't need this crap.

I also saw an article Sunday about the NFL having select games going PPV
by 1992, at least. As I've stated before... that's when they lose this
fan... just like boxing did. I'll start watching less, and playing more.

Mike JN

    Trade him to L.A.   Hail, we'd even give Gott back.
    
    
    Mike a NL team in Denver would be great, then I can go see the Dodgers
    play.

    The paper quotes Leyland as saying to the press, "I don't give a damn
    what his problems are, he's not going to run this camp.  ...He can just
    go home."  
    
    If you know anything about Jim Leyland, you know he's of mild temper. 
    This is really uncharcteristic of him.  And I've never heard him
    discipline a player in public before.
    
    Bonds better straighten up or he might be the sorriest player ever to
    wear black and gold.  Leyland will put the screws on him...maybe move
    him down in the order or have him lead off again (less RBIs).  That
    would hit Bonds where it hurts and Leyland knows this.
    
    Last years Manager of the Year will definitely win over the MVP...you
    watch.
    
    	--dan'l

    	That was one of the best spring training scenes to come out
    of camp.  I rate it ahead of the Hernendez/Strawberry "FotoFight"
    but slightly behind Boggs' "I found out I was addicted to sex on
    Geraldo" statement.
    
    				/Don

    I'll agree /Don, that was a lollapaloosa...my wife counted 10 "bleeps"
    in about 7-8 seconds.

random thoughts --

I'd love to hear what Barry's dad had to say to him after all this stuff.

Leyland is faced with a really difficult problem right now.  This is where
we will see if he is an HOF caliber manager.  On the one hand, if he starts 
in with the Dick Williams "I'm the <bleep>ing manager no <bleep>ing player 
talks to me like that mess with me and I'll rip off your <bleeping> head and 
..." act, he runs the risk of making the rest of the team real sick of this
and looking for places to hide.  On the other hand, if he plays the Davey
"Darryl's understanding Dad" Johnson game, there's a whole bunch of other
effects which can cause the team to extend Spring training into April and May 
(ref: last year's Mets).  

Is there any player on the current Pirates team who can help Leyland out 
by telling Barry to sit up and shut up and make it stick?  It's times like 
this that managers would kill for a Don Baylor on their bench.  It's also 
times like this which prove Howard Cosell wrong -- managing baseball is 
not the easiest job in sports.

Dave W.

>Is there any player on the current Pirates team who can help Leyland out 
>by telling Barry to sit up and shut up and make it stick? 
    
    I think Bonds' ego might be too big for this.  However, Wally Backman
    might have had a shot, but he's a Phillie now.  Bream too, but he's in
    Atlanta.  Bonilla is in the same boat so he won't say a thing. 
    VanSlyke is due up next year so he'll probably be quiet...not that he's
    smart enough to figure anything out anyway.
    
    Perhaps LaValliere.  Maybe Drabek.  But frankly, Barry is going to have
    to settle this within himself first.  Maybe a clonk on the head with an
    Everready might help.  8-)
    
    Maybe Jeff King will step forward as a leader, who knows.  Right now,
    losing all those minor league outfielders in the Phillie fiasco last
    season has the Pirates front office's back against the wall.  
    
    This team will be in the cellar in two years.  You watch.
    
    	--dan'l

    I just bought my season ticket in the left field seats, SO, if anybody
    has any coupons for Eveready, Duracell's or any other brand of battery,
    please send me the coupons, I'll be going thru a lot of batteries this
    season!!!!!       (many (8^)* 's)
    
    Leyland also told (Crybaby)Bonds that he(Leyland) has taken
    (Crybaby)Bonds' bleep for three years and he won't take it for a
    fourth.  
    
    Dan'l, the incident was all the same incident.  Bill Virdon, a spring
    training coach for the Pirates heard (Crybaby)Bonds giving the PR guy
    the word and came over to try and calm thing down, Leyland heard the
    commotion and showed up and the rest is history.
    
    The actual reason for the fracas is as follows.
    
    (Crybaby)Bonds has stated no interviews or pics.  A film crew from
    Pittsburgh was taking some general panamoric view shots of the facility
    where the Pirates hold spring training.  (Crybaby)Bonds, who was
    conversing with an ESPN photographer who is a friend of (Crybaby)Bonds,
    tried to order the film crew to stop filming him in the views.  The
    Bucco PR guy stated to (Crybaby)Bonds that the ESPN photog is
    prohibited from conversing with (Crybaby)Bonds during workouts, which
    (Crybaby)Bonds was not attending so he could talk to his buddy, and
    (Crybaby)Bonds flew off of the handle.
    
    My advise to the MORON who may be playing left field for the Bucs this
    year, WEAR AN ARMORED SUIT, and buy your kids some toys, you'll have
    enuf free batteries that you won't have to buy any.  
    
    
    EXTRA EXTRA EXTRA
    
    This just in, (Crybaby)Bonds IQ reported to be 2 points lower than his
    shoe size, film at eleven.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Heard this on the Myron Cope radio talk show tonite, from Myron
    himself, so consider it gospel.
    
    Seems that on the way back to Pittsburgh after getting trounced by the
    Reds, (Crybaby)Barry Bonds was sitting in the back of the plane eating
    pizza and bitching about players, by name, and their lack of
    accomplishment during the playoffs.  Included in these gripes were
    downright insults to the players involved.  Which makes me wonder, who
    the f_ck is (Crybaby)Bonds to gripe about the poor performances of his
    teammates when he HIMSELF, only went 1 or 2 for the playoffs and didn't
    contribute sh_t!!!!
    
    Back to the story. 
    
    It seems that R.J. Reynolds had enuf of this behaviour and turned
    around and told (Crybaby)Bonds to grow up.  (Crybaby)Bonds response,
    showing that his age is barely larger than his IQ, was to throw his
    pizza in Reynolds face.  Reynolds became livid and went after
    (Crybaby)Bonds, only to be restrained by 3 of his teammates.
    
    Shame he was restrained, I think a sound a__kicking could have possibly
    straightened the freakin' spoiled brat out.
    
    JaKe
    

    	Acutally I feel Bonds is no different than say Roger Clemens
    or any of a host of younger players.  It's just Roger gets treated
    like royalty and his every whim catered to, while Bonds gets treated
    like any other player.  Fact is, lots of todays "superstars" are
    pampered jerks, and if you don't kiss the ground they stand on they
    take their ball and go home (i.e. file for free agency).
    
    				/Don

    /Don,
    
    You could probably write to the Pittsburgh Pirates Fan Club and get
    some battery throwing tips.  Maybe that's what Clemens needs.  He's big
    enough, how could you miss him?
    
    8-)
    
    	--dan'l

When throwing the Duracell Copper Top, do you throw with the copper top
facing toward the target, or away from the target?

If you choose EverReady, can you throw that stupid rabbit instead?

What if I'd like to heave a DieHard?  Is that permissible?


Geez, I never knew being a Pirates fan was so physically demanding.
I thought all you had to do was sing "We Are Family"....

8^)

'Saw

    Frank, what an excellent idea.  Jake, you've got to follow up on this!  
    I'll pitch in for one of those Eveready Bunnies.  If you were to wing
    that onto left field on opening day, it would make sports highlight
    films all over the country.  What a message/warning for Bonds.
    
    	--dan'l

My favorite Stupid Bond Trick was when he said during contract negotiations,
"Will Clark makes $15 million.  What's he ever done?"

Get a clue, man.

Dave W.

    
    The Radio Shack chain has a "Battery of the Month Club" where you get
    a free battery of your choice just for walking in the door.  I'd go
    with the nine-volt, since those square corners can be very effective,
    and they don't tend to sail as much as the double A's.  Be careful
    loading up the spitter though, you can shock your tongue.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    Dickstah
    

    Please tell me you guys are kidding about throwing batteries at
    baseball players.
    
    Mark.

    	Come on Mark, why do you think they call the pitcher and catcher
    a "battery".  They're just axing for it!

    Oh oh, we have differences showing up in this "charged" situation.
    
    Perhaps we are "polarized"?
    
    lEe

    Mark, yes we are kidding...I think.  We are referring to an actual
    incident, however, of when Dave Parker was pelted with a battery (don't
    think it hit him) right after he signed his big, fat contract and then
    proceeded to get big and fat.  Pittsburgh hated him.
    
    But I think lofting an Energizer Bunny into left field would be totally
    cool and absolutely hilarious.  
    
    	--dan'l

    "There are also times when you make an extra effort to pay a player
    who is important to his team.  According to the way [Bobby] Bonds
    played last year, yes, he would be one of them."
    
    - Former pitcher Tom Seaver on MVP Bobby Bonds's feud with the
      Pittsburgh Pirates' management.

    FWIW, it's Barry Bonds.  Bobby is his dad.  But you are one of
    thousands to make that mistake...including 'The National.'
    
    One of the funniest moments was in Atlanta a few years ago.  I had
    seats right behind the Buc dugout and the announcer kept calling
    Bonilla 'Barry Bonilla' and Bonds 'Bobby Bonds.'  Both rolled their
    eyes in disgust every time their names were called.  It became a big
    joke after a while and the announcer never did catch on.
    
    	--dan'l

    
    I think a Sears Die-Hard catapulted by a professional hurler from 
    the Peanut Gallery would be the best option... 
    
    The difference between Clemens and Bonds is that while Roger may be
    selfish and arrogant to writers, photographers, and all other 
    outsiders, he seems to be well respected by his teammates and
    considered a "gamer" and team player by those around him.  From what 
    I gathered during last year's NLCS, you'd be hard pressed to find a 
    single Pirate who can even tolerate Bonds, much less respect him...
    
    glenn
    

    �              -< Seaver Speaks (Unwisely I might add...) >-
    
 Soup, you would have been better off leaving your opinion unsaid.   Tom
 Seaver knows *exactly* what he's talking about.
    
 In 1977, M. Donald Grant refused to pay Tom Seaver and the Mets traded him
 to Cincinnati instead.  Tom Seaver was arguably the single most important
 player in New York Mets history and to let him go guaranteed the Mets
 several seasons of 100 or more losses throughout the late 1970s and early
 1980s.
    
 Now the Mets are jerking around the second most important Met of all time,
 namely, Doc Gooden.   If he goes, the Mets are toast.   Take it to the
 bank ... toast.
 
 Pittsburgh needs to decide if Barry Bonds is their cornerstone.  If so,
 pay him.  If not, let him go.   Personally, I think Doug Drabek is the
 most important Pirate right now and I'll bet the Pirates do too based on
 the fact that he got a huge new deal and Bonds did not.
    
 Teams can find young stud left fielders in several places.    A starter
 who wins 20 plus *and* the Cy Young are as rare as North Carolina hoops
 titles.
 
 Bob Hunt

    For him to make the comment he made at this time strikes as an
    endorsement of Bonds recent actions.
    
    I seriously doubt Terrific Tom wants to become attached to the extreme
    negative sentiment that's being attached to Mr. Bonds.  Hence, it was
    an unwise thing to say.
    
    
    - Chris

    
    
    	It appears that Barry Bonds is following in his fathers footsteps
    in more ways than one!!  
    
    
    								bill
    

    I guess you mean by being well-traveled right Bill ?
    
    Because Bobby seem to be well liked and respected by his peers ....

    'Saw, I tend to thro mine end over end.  Gonna line up my old
    motorcycle "Diehard" that died hard this winter.  (8^)* (8^0*
    
    I predict here and now that (Crybaby)Bonds won't make the trip north as
    a Bucco.  He'll be traded before the season starts.
    
    JaKe
    

    Trade 'im to the Braves.  Canseco, Bonds and Neon Deion in the
    same lineup would give the West a run for their money and would
    make TBS the most entertaining superstation in baseball.
    
    If they don't kill each other first.
    
    Dave W.

    > Because Bobby seem to be well liked and respected by his peers ....
    
    You pullin' our leg, Doc?  Bobby had many the run-in with managers,
    coaches, and players wherever he went.  After his initial run with San
    Francisco, Bonds played for seven different teams, lasted with the
    Angels for two seasons and *not more than ONE* for the other six teams.
    Year in and year out he was with a new team, if not twice in the same
    year.  That's amazing.
    
    I will say this: Bobby Bonds might have been the all-time best player 
    that everyone couldn't wait to get rid of...
    
    glenn
    

   � I seriously doubt Terrific Tom wants to become attached to the extreme
   � negative sentiment that's being attached to Mr. Bonds.  Hence, it was
   � an unwise thing to say.
    
 Says who ???   What possible risk is Tom Seaver taking by saying what he
 said about Barry Bonds ???
    
 He's been retired for years now, he's probably disgustingly wealthy, his
 wife is probably still a stone fox, and probably all he's ever worried
 about these days is his golf handicap and the map he needs to get to the
 next autograph show.   I seriously doubt he's terribly worried what the
 Pirates' front office thinks of him.
 
 I know you like to spend a lot of time and effort psychoanalyzing what you
 think certain sports figures are doing, saying, and feeling but you're
 shooting at windmills on this one.
 
 Pray do tell what is so unwise about Tom Terrific's comments ???  What is
 he at risk of losing ???  His lifetime free pass to Three Rivers Stadium
 ... if he even has one ???
 
 Bob Hunt

    Am I correct in hearing that Bobby Bonilla has again turned down an
    offer from the Pirates that would pay him $16 million over four years,
    including an immediate raise this season to $4 million from his 
    arbitrated salary of $2.4 million?  If Bonilla takes the field this
    season without putting a pen to that paper I'd have to say that he
    and/or his agent should be committed.  Is it really worth it for a
    player like Bonilla to take a chance to gain a couple of million 
    dollars over the span of four years?
    
    Bobby Bonilla is a very good baseball player.  Considering the total
    package, I don't think he's a *great* baseball player.  Even with many
    of the owners apparently on the brink of clinical insanity, I don't see
    Bobby Bonilla making $5 million a year.  Is it really worth all this to 
    get out of Pittsburgh?
    
    glenn
     

    re .62:
    
    Yup, you read that right Glenn...SportsChannel reported this morning
    that Bonilla is seeking a 4-year, $17.something million deal.
    
    
    py

    Bonilla doesn't have ice water in his veins, he's got it in his head.
    
    Last night's paper said that Bonilla's asking price was $17.9 mil for 4
    years BEFORE arbitration.  Bonilla said that now that he's gone thru
    arbitration, the asking price has gone up.
    
    Shame that these a__holes have become legends in their own minds and
    think they're worth so freakin' much cash.
    
    Guess maybe I should start a contest as per where Bonilla will be
    playing nexted year!!
    
    JaKe
    

    Pittsburgh signed VanSlyke to a three-year contract extension worth
    $12.65 million.  VanSlyke readily accepted the offer.  Believe me, with
    the antics of Bonilla and Bonds, Andy will be the darling of
    Pittsburgh.  By just picking up a pen and signing his name to what was
    a "fair" offer he has earned the people's respect.
    
    So fair is it that it makes VanSlyke the fourth-highest paid player in
    baseball.  
    
    I don't give a flying fart if the Bucs finish in the middle of the
    pack.  They've got their priorities straight by signing the best
    centerfielder in the majors.  If VanSlyke continues to improve on his
    hitting, he might become a major star in MLB.
    
    So long, Bobby.  So long, Barry.  Have fun being babbies somewhere
    else.  Bonds will be gone by June.  Bonilla will last the year in
    Pittsburgh and be hitting up a storm to boost his free-agency appeal. 
    If he doesn't perform, he might look back on his $16 million/four-year
    refusal as the worst mistake in his life...and I really couldn't care
    less.
    
    	--dan'l

    Dan'l
    
    I agree with you that Bonilla could look back on the contract he passed
    up with regrets.  The 4 yr/$16 mil was a GUARANTEED contract.
    
    Now let's see, it's the middle of June and Bonilla is legging out a
    double, he slides into second and shatters his ankle, never is the same
    again and goes to the AL(alternate league) and spends his aging days as
    a DH(dork head).  
    
    The guy is involved in a crapshoot.
    
    Re Bonds.  Bob Smizik's column in the Pittsburgh Press was urging the 
    50,000 plus in the Stadium tonite NOT to BOO Bonds.  Said the guy has 
    righted himself after the much bleeped argument with Bil Virdon and Jim
    Leyland early in spring training.  
    
    Hell, if people want treat him like they treated Dave Parker, he could
    be Eveready'd before the end of the first inning tonite.  Wonder if
    he's going to wear armor under the uniform this year!!!   (8^0*
    
    I agree on your comments about Andy Van Slyke.  Van Slyke's agent
    initiated the "back-door" negotiations and refused to negotiate thru
    the media, as Bonilla has done all along.  Van Slyke called the
    contract "fair".  He thought he could get a better contract money wise
    by going the free agent route, but said that he has made a lot of ties
    here in Pittsburgh over the last five years and that he wanted to stay
    here.  His contract calls for a $1.4mil DECREASE in the last year.
    He said it offers the club some protection in case of a lockout or
    strike in the last year of the contract, also.
    
    Let the batteries fly!!!!!
    
    Many (8^)* 's
    
    JaKe
    

    Beano Cook, self-proclaimed sports analyst and prognosticator, inferred
    today that the signing of Van Slyke, coupled with the failure to sign
    Bonilla, is an example of racism by the Pittsburgh Pirates.
    
      He inferred that the Pirates will have a higher attendance over the
    next 3 years because Van Slyke is in the outfield, therefore keeping at
    least one white in the outfield.
    
    JaKe
    

    Buccos took it on the chin tonite in their home opener.  Lost to
    Montreal 7-0.  Bucs only had one hit in the game, a single by Barry
    "WahWah" Bonds.  Doug Drabek took the loss while dennis Martinez got
    the win.  Martinez is now 8-2 lifetime vs. the Pirates.
    
    Montreal seems to always bring out the worst in the Pirates.  Last year
    the Pirates wer 5-13 vs. the Expos, and a couple of losses were late
    inning come-from-behind wins by the Expos.
    
    Bucs vs. Expos again tomorrow night(4-9-91).
    
    JaKe
    

>    Beano Cook, self-proclaimed sports analyst and prognosticator, inferred
>    today that the signing of Van Slyke, coupled with the failure to sign
>    Bonilla, is an example of racism by the Pittsburgh Pirates.
    
    As much respect as I have for Beano, I think he's way out of line here. 
    Yes, there is accute racism in Pittsburgh, but not in this instance.  
    
    For some reason, ESPN was showing the Pirate game here in Charlotte
    last night.  (Thanks for nothing.)  The two announcers, one of which
    was Bill Robinson...both of which were terrible, gave details of the
    contract negotiations.  After the antics of Bonds and Bonilla and their
    respective agents, Pirates GM Carl Bahrger (sp?) asked VanSlyke's agent
    to keep things out of the media.  Both sides agreed to this and voila!
    
    Another interesting note is that Pittsburgh did indeed cheer Bonds and
    Bonilla.  There were boos also, but mainly cheers.  However, there was
    a tremendous difference in the cheer level when ever VanSlyke came to
    bat or caught a ball.  Told ya he'd be their darling!
    
    	--dan'l

    Bucs beat the Expos last night 4-3, after trailing 3-0.  Kipper gets
    the win, Landrum the save.
    
    Bucs beat the Expos today, 6-3.  Zane Smith got the victory and pitched
    7 2/3 innings.
    
    The Bucs won the 3 game set 2-1 and it marked the first time the Bucs
    have done so in Three Rivers against the Expos since 1987.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs beat the Mets last nigt 4-0 behind a one hitter by John Smiley.
    Smiley Allowed only one batter to reach base, and that was because
    Gary Varsho gave up on a fly ball and let it bounce over his head and
    it ended up being a double.  If Barry "Wah Wah" Bonds had been playing,
    the ball more than likely  would have been caught and Smiley "COULD"
    have pitched a perfect game.  Smiley retired the last 23 batters in
    order.  Helluva game for Smiley who is trying to regain his form that
    he seemed to lose after losing a fight with a "cab door"(according to
    Smiley) in the middle of last season.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs come back yesterday from a 7-2 deficit to tie the game in the
    ninth and send it into extra innings vs the Cubs.  Then after Andre
    Dawson hit a grand slam in the top of the 11th, they went into the
    bottom of the 11th down 12-7, but scored 6 runs in the inning to beat
    the Cubbies 13-12.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs beat the Expos lasted night, 7-3.  John Smiley gets the win, he's
    now 3-0 with ERA of 1.59.
    
    Andy Van SLyke and Barry "Wah Wah" bonds both hit 2-run home runs in
    the game.   The Bucs are still tied with the New Yuck Mutts for the NL
    East lead with 9-5 records.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs prevail over Expos, 2-1 lasted night.  Doug Drabek finally broke
    his drought and got his first win, he is now 1-3.  Drabek allowed only
    one unearned run in 7-2/3 innings despite giving up 6 hits, 5 walks and
    hitting one batter.
    
    The Bucs remain tied for first with the Mutts.  The Bucs have won 5 in
    a row.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs beat the Astros tonite. 1-0.  The game took all of an hour and 41
    minutes.  Can't remember the name of the Astro pitcher but he only gave
    up 2 hits, AND LOST.  Only run scored in the game was on a home run by
    Orlando Merced. 
    
    Zane Smith(3-1) pitched a 4 hitter and got the complete game and the
    shutout.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs beat the Reds tonite to stop the two game losing streak.
    Vincente Palacios got the win.  He only gave up 3 hits in 7 plus
    innings but he walked 7 or 8 batters in the game before being yanked
    from th game.  Jay Bell hit a dinger for the Bucs.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs beat the Reds tonite, 7-2, and swept the 3 game series.
    Zane Smith got the win.  Jay Bell hit an inside the park home run, and
    Lloyd McClendon and Jose Lind hit back to back homers also.
    
    Bucs are off tomorrow night(they play an exhibition game in Buffalo)
    and then they play the Braves over the weekend here in Pgh.
    
    JaKe
    

	Heard on SportsCenter last night that some old lady who liked to go 
to Pirate games dressed as a bumblebee (to each his/her own) has been asked 
to stop doing so by Pirate management.  Seems like the organization feels 
that due to insurance considerations nobody should be allowed to go to a 
game dressed as a bumblebee, chicken, turtle, gorilla etc.  What is this 
world coming to when you can't attend a baseball game attired in the above.
Sheesh...

				/Don

    Bucs beat the Braves and John Smoltz tonite, 5-2.  John Smiley(5-1)got
    the win and Stan Belinda got the save.  Orlando Merced and Lloyd
    McClendon hit round trippers for the Bucs.  Merced has been a pleasant
    suprize for the Bucs, filling the weakspot at first base with decent
    defense and good offense.
    
    Syd Bream, whom the Bucs let get away thru free agency, pinch hit in
    the 9th inning, the first time he has been to 3 Rivers since joining
    the Braves, received a standing ovation from the Pirate's fans, and
    proceeded to hit one out of the park to center field.  He got another
    standing ovation and a couple of encores.  The Pittsburgh fans showed
    that they were displeased that the Bucs lst Syd get away.
    
    The Bucs have now won 4 straight, and have the best record in the major
    leagues, at 19-9.
    
    JaKe
    

	We'll be awaiting the weekend report ...

    Braves took two out of three from the Pirates over the weekend.  Drabek
    picks up his sixth loss after serving up a fat one in the 8th Saturday. 
    Both teams still in first place in their respective divisions.
    
    What the much-maligned Pittsburgh fans did for Sid Bream on Friday was
    very touching.  You don't see a standing O for many opposing
    players...especially twice, once when announced and then after he
    homers against you.  I think Sid appreciated every moment.  I sure did.
    
    	--dan'l

    Bucs beat the Astros tonite, 6-3.  Zane Smith gets the win, he is now
    5-1.  Bill Landrum gave up his first run of the season, in 15 inning of
    relief pitching.
    
    Bucs will either be up by 2 or 3 games, depending on what the Mutts do.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    The Bucs today traded pitcher Mike York to the Clevescum Indians for
    Mitch Webster.
    
    Anybody able to give the lowdown on Webster. 
    
    JaKe
    

    Buc Update
    
    Jeff King is on the DL with a back problem.
    Bob Walk is back off of the DL, but is working in the bullpen right
             now.
    Doug Drabek, coming off his 22-6 Cy Young season is 1-6, and gave up 4
             runs in the first tonite, but has held off the Astros since.
    Jose Lind is day to day with a sore back.
    Barry Bonds can't hit right-handers so far this season.  Besides having
             an absolutely overall batting average, he has only one extra
             base hit off of a right hander this season.
    Orlando Merced is rapidly earning the first base job for the Bucs. 
             Despite going 0-4 last night, Merced has 13 hits in his last
             30 AB (.433 clip)
    
    
    The Bucs trailed last night, 4-0, but managed to come back and beat the
    Astros, 8-7.
    The Astros scored 4 runs off of Drabek in the first tonite, BUT,
    couldn't hold that lead and right now it is 4-4 in the 6th.
    By winning the first two games of the three game series in the
    Astrodome, the Bucs have assured themselves of winning their first
    series in the Astrodome since 1986.
    Should the Bucs win tonite and sweep this series, it would be the first
    3 game series sweep in the Astrodome for the Bucs since 1981, though, in
    1983 they swept a 4 game series.
    
    JaKe
     
    

    Bucs copmpleted 3 game sweep with second straight victory in which they
    came from 4-0 deficits to win.  Tonites score, Bucs 6 Astros 4.
    
    Doug Drabek gets the win and is now 2-6.
    
    JaKe
    

    The Braves continued to beat up on the Bucs this weekend.
    
    They beat the Bucs twice and the third game was rained out.
    
    Bucs still 2 up on the Mutts.  They are off tonite.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Barry Bonds really raised his free-agency clout last night.  Bonds,
    showoff that he is, has a habbit of slapping his glove two times on his
    thigh before catching a fly ball. 
    
    Last night he gets turned around on a deep fly to left.  He manages to
    get under the ball at the warning track, wacks his glove on his thigh
    twice, then before he can raise his glove, the ball hits the top of it
    and bounces away.
    
    Two runs score.  St. Louis beats the Pirates 5-3.
    
    	--dan'l

    Bucs beat the Phillies tonite, 9-1.  6 run fifth was the turning point
    in the game.  Bonds and Bonilla both hit round trippers for the Bucs.
    
    Zane Smith gets the win, he's now 6-2.
    
    Bucs broke 2 game losing streak.  They had lost 4 of the last 5 games
    played before tonite.
    
    It's a race between Barry Bonds and Doug Drabek for the "Dave Parker
    Busted Year after getting Big Bucks" award.
    I personally vote for Barry Bonds at this point, after his bonehead
    "slap the glove on the thigh twice then drop easy flyball and let 2 runs
    score play" the other night.  He also is hitting below his weight, but
    way over his IQ.  
    
    Drabek, on the otherhand, has pitched well of late, but has had his
    problems with the Bucco defense holding onto the ball for him.  See
    "Barry Bonds" above for further info.  Drabek is 2-7, but throwing
    well.
    
    Bonds is just trying too hard and not concentrating enuf.
    
    Bucs are on top of the NL East with the Cardinals holding onto second,
    1-1/2 games back, depending on what they do tonite.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs had a good weekend.  Swept the Phillies.
    
    Yesterday, Doug Drabek returned to his Sie Jung form, pitching a one
    hitter vs. the Cardinals.  The one hit he gave up came in the 7th.
    
    First the Pens, next the Bucs will win the NL east, NL Pennant, then
    the world Series, returning Pittsburgh to the "City of Champions"
    stature.
    
    JaKe
    

    
>>    First the Pens, next the Bucs will win the NL east, NL Pennant, then
>>    the world Series, returning Pittsburgh to the "City of Champions"
>>    stature.
    
    Amen.  And the thing that's real scary (for the rest of the N.L.) is
    that Van Slyke, Bonds, and Drabek haven't done much so far this year.
    And King is hurt.
    
    Warren

    The Bucs won their SIXTH in a row tonite, 6-0 over the Cards.
    
    Zane Smith pitched a one hitter.
    
    Bucs have the best record in baseball at 29-15.
    
    Bucs lead in the NL East is at 4 games over the Mutts.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs just beat the Phillies, 5-1.  Jeff King returned from the DL and
    hit a dinger.  Bob Walk got the win and is 1-0.
    
    Bucs have now won 7 in a row and their record is 30-15 and is best in
    the Majors.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs swept the Phillies this weekend, Smiley gets his 8th victory, now
    is 8-1.
    
    Bob Walk got the victory yesterday vs the Phillies, in a relief type
    mode.  Barry Bonds hit a homer and drove in 3 runs, two with a double
    in the ninth, to help the Bucs to a 5-3 win.  Doug Drabek struggled
    again, working with the bases full in two innings and stranding 8
    runners thru the first 4 innings.
    
    The Bucs have now won 9 in a row and have the best record in the Major
    Leagues, plus something like a 6 game lead in the NL East.
    
    17-15 here we come!!!!  (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

    
    >>17-15 here we come!!!!  (8^)*
    
    Make that 147-15, not 17-15
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs 9 game winning streak ended tonite at the hands of the Giants.
    Final score 5-3.  Zane Smith, who pitched a one-hitter last time out,
    didn't last thru the fifth inning and took the loss.  Smith is now 7-3.
    
    Barry "Wah Wah" Bonds drove in all three Pirate Runs with a double and
    a home Run.
    
    Last I heard the Mutts were winning, which would leave the Bucs up by 5
    games, should the Mutts win tonite.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs beat the Giants lasted night, 7-3.  Bucs scored 5 in the first and
    added 2 more in either the 2nd or 3rd, forgot which, and pretty much
    coasted home with the win.
    
    Bob Walk got the victory and is now 3-0.  Oddly, his three victories
    have come in the lasted 5 Pirate games, 2 starts and one relief
    appearance.
    
    Jeff King hit a 3 run homer in the first to cap off the 5 run inning.
    
    Kelly Downs lasted 2/3 of an inning for the Giants.
    
    Anybody know what the New Yuck Mutts did lasted night...Whatabout the
    Cardinals????
    
    JaKe
    

>>    Anybody know what the New Yuck Mutts did lasted night...Whatabout the
>>    Cardinals????
 
NY lost.  Not sure about St.Louie.  The biggest lead in Baseball is back to
6 full games.

Now that the Cubs, Expos, and Phils have fired their managers, can the Mets
and Cards be far behind?  I know there's already lots of talk in NY.  Any in
STL?

Has there ever been a division (or league) where every team but one has fired
their manager?

Warren

    Bucs lost to the Giants tonite, 6-3.  The loss leaves their record at
    34-17, still best in the Majors.
    
    John Smiley took the loss and is now 8-2.
    
    The Mutts lost tonite so the Bucs lead is still 6 games.
    
    JaKe
    

    Doug Drabek improved his record to 4-7 tonite, beating the San Diego
    Padres, 1-0.  Bob Patterson, Stan Balinda, and Bill Landrum also took
    part in the shutout.  The Bucs record is now 34-17 and the lead,
    depending on what the Mutts and Cards do, will be at least 6 games
    after tonite.
    
    
    Outta here for a week
    
    JaKe
    

    The Bucs have sipped recently.  They are in the midst of a 4 game
    losing streak and their recent Left Coast trip was a disaster.  Their
    left-handed starters(Smiley, Zane Smith, Randy Tomlin) haven't won
    since June 3rd.
    
    Jeff King is out at least until the All-Star break, but if he needs
    surgery for his problematic back, he will be out for the rest of the
    season.  Andy Van Slyke and Bobby Bonilla are both playing but neither
    is playing at 100%.
    
    As of 6 tonite, the Bucs still hold a 4 game lead over the Cards in the
    NL East.  Hopefully they can break out of this "Everybody is either
    hurt at once or in a slump at the same time" garbage.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs beat the Cubs 7-6 yesterday.  Bob Walk got the win and is now 6-0.
    
    Tonite, the Bucs scored four runs in the bottom of the ninth to beat
    the Cubs, 4-3.  Unfortunately, the Cards beat the Phillies today also
    so the Bucs lead is still 4 games.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Make that:
    
    >    Tonite, the Bucs scored four runs in the bottom of the ninth 
    >    WITH TWO OUTS to beat the Cubs, 4-3. 
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    That's the second time they've done that to the Cubs this season, the
    other one being one of the greatest games in a long long time for any
    baseball fan when they scored six runs in the bottom of the 11th on
    April 21.
    
    	--dan'l

    Bucs beat the Expos tonite in Olympic Stadium with the hole in the
    roof.  Final was 6-1.
    
    Zane Smith gets the win, Stan Belinda finished up.
    
    Jay Bell went 3-5 with a home run.  Bell leads all of the National
    League shortstops in RBI with ~37.  He went 5-5 the other night vs. the
    Cubs.
    
    The Cards won tonite also so the lead in the NL East stays at 4.
    
    JaKe
    

    Anyone know who won the Pirates Cubs game last night.  I watched until
    the end of the 12th, but then it got pasted my beddy-bye time.  Bucs
    should have won this one and deserved to lose...just wish they woulda
    done so in 10 or 11.
    
    	--dan'l

    
    Cubs won in 13, 6-5.  Two outs, Belinda (Stan, not Carlisle) hits
    Berryhill, walks Grace, and Sandberg singles in the game-winner.
    
    glenn
    

    The Bucs won today, beating the Cubs 13-4.  The Bucs had 22 hits,
    including 14 singles, 3 triples, 3 HR's and a double.
    
    Mike Lavalliere and Bobby Bonilla each had 4 hits.
    Gaary Varsho hit the first 2 home runs of his career and had 6 rbi. 
    Andy Van Slyke had a HR and a triple.  Barry "Wah Wah" Bonds had 3 rbi.
    
    Doug Drabek pitched the complete game and got the win, making his
    record 7-8.  He has won 5 of his last 6 decisions.
    
    Bucs play the Cubs again tomorrow afternoon at Wrigley Field.
    
    JaKe
    

 The NL East race is toast.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Bucs beat the Cubs again today, 11-7.
    
    Andy Van Slyke hit a home run for the third time in last three games.
    
    Zane Smith got the win.
    
    Lloyd McClendon also hit a homer for the Bucs.
    Bucs have won 7 of their last 8.
    
    GO BUCS!!!!!!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    

    
    Hey, did you guys see fat old Bill Mazeroski jack that 350-foot home
    run out of SkyDome yesterday in that old-timers (sorry, "legends")
    exhibition?  This is a 55-year-old man, wider than he is tall, born
    within a month of my father (and within a few miles away), fer cripes 
    sake!  Somehow I can't picture dear old Dad, who's in much better shape
    than Maz, even getting the ball out of the infield, in the air or on
    the ground...
    
    glenn
    

    Yeah, I saw that game Glenn.  Kind of ironic that Maz parks one after
    the announcers spend half the game talking about the 1960 World Series
    Game 7 HR.
    
    John Mayberry and Boog Powell don't look like they've missed many meals
    lately...
    
    
    py

    The Bucs swept the Reds (4 games) over the weekend.
    
    Randy Tomlin pitched hiis first major league shutout and fourth career
    complete game and 5 hit the Astros tonite as the Bucs won their 6th
    straight game by a score of 8-0.
    
    This win, coupled with the Mutts losing to the Giants, 4-3, puts the
    Bucs lead in the NL East at 4-1/2 games.
    
    The Bucs record is now 53-31.
    
    The 2-3-4 hitters for the Pirates tonite were a combined 8-12 with all
    eight of the Bucs RBI:
           
                    Jay Bell   3-5, 1 rbi
                    Andy VanSlyke  2-3, 4 rbi (Van Slyke has 20 rbi in the
    last 16 games the Bucs have played)
                    Bobby Bonilla  3-4,  3rbi.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs won lasted nite 6-4 over the Astros.
    
    Zane Smith gets his 10th win.
    
    Gary Varsho's pinch hit 2-run dinger broke a 3-3 tie to put the Bucs
    ahead.
    
    Bucs have won 7 in a row.
    
    Anyone know what the New Yuck Mutts did lasted night??????????
    
    JaKe
    

    Mets won.  Bucs lead still at 4�.  
    
    Can you imagine how the Mets feel winning 10 in a row and still being
    4� out?!?
    
    Go Bucs!
    
    	--dan'l

    Bucs won last night, 7-4.  Smiley wins his 12th(12-6).
    Bucs have taken 2 of 3 from the Braves, only losing Monday night while
    I was at the game.
    
    Bucs now have 3 pitchers with 10+ wins,  Smiley(12-6), Zane Smith, and
    Drabek(10-9).
    
    Jeff Bannister got his first major league hit the other night.  He was
    diagnosed with bone cancer in his ankle in 1982.  The doctors wanted
    to amputate the leg but he said NO.  Fought and beat the cancer and 
    continued his dream to someday play in the Major Leagues.  A few years
    later, while catching for some minor league team, he was involved in a
    collision on a play at the plate.  He suffered 3 crushed vertebrae in
    his neck and was paralyzed for 10 days.  After numerous operations and
    fusing of the neck vertebrae, his doctor pronounced to him that his
    neck was stronger than it was previous to the collision.  He said the
    first time that he was involved in a collision afterwards, he got up
    real slow and prayed on the way up that everything still worked.
    Guts.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs beat the Astros tonite, 8-1.  Don't have any details of the game
    other than that, though.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    
    I was out of touch for about a week and came back and noticed some guy
    named Wehner,3B had 5 hits the other night.  Where did we get him?
    And how do you pronounce his name?  Can I stop worrying about King
    not coming back and Bobby Bo at 3rd base?
    
    Warren

    It's pronounced Way-ner.  He's from Carrick, a suburb of Pittsburgh.
    Came up from the minors.  Has a weird batting style but gets the job
    done, and is not too shabby defensively either.  Made a few extra-fine
    plays at third.
    
    
    Bucs took 2 of the 3 game set from the Astros this weekend.  Lost
    yesterday, 9-7.  Zane Smith had his third straight HORRIBLE outing. 
    Didn't last thru the 4th again.  Somebody kick him and wake the guy up.
    
    Jay Bell had 10 or 11 hits in the 3 games against the Astros, including
    3 home runs.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs lose both ends of a doubleheader to the Braves tonite, 7-5 and
    5-3.
    
    Drabek loses the first game and is now 10-10.
    
    Smiley loses second game and is now 12-7.  Stan Belinda gave up back to
    back HR's in the eighth inning to put the game "out of reach".
    
    Pirates pitching in the last three games, all losses, has not been able
    to put the ball across the plate.  Drabek walked 5, Smiley 4, Belinda
    2.
    
    Bucs are 0-4 in Atlanta this year and have 2 more games against the
    Braves tomorrow and Wednesday, then will be glad to leave Atlanta.
    
    Depending upon what the Mutts do tonite in LA, the Bucs lead will be
    either 5-1/2 or 6-1/2 games.
    
    JaKe
    

    
     Mets won lasted night 5-1.  Cone pitched a 3-hitter for his 10th
    win.
    
      Seems like the Mets & Pirates haven't played at all this year.
    When will they finally meet?
    
    						 glen j.

    re .119 (glen j), remaining Mets-Pirates games:
    
    3 games August 6-8 in NY
    3 games August 16-18 in Pittsburgh
    3 games September 24-26 in NY
    3 games September 30-October 2 in Pittsburgh
    
    
    Jake -- have you heard anything about the Pirates perhaps making a
    trade for Kansas City 3B Kevin Seitzer?
    
    
    py

    
    How about the Bravos!!!  That pair of wins did their us cubs fans who
    live in Atlanta quite a favor.  I'm not a huge braves fan but I root
    for them when they are not playing the cubs.  The cubs are about 12 1/2
    out but they have plenty of games left against the pirates and the rest
    of the division.  Cubs about to make a run at the Bucs .
    
    It is an amazing turn around to see the braves beat the bucs because
    the bucs ususally come down here and beat the braves head in the sand,
    or georgia red clay.
    
    Roy 

    And the picture doesn't get any rosier for the Pirates today and
    tomorrow as they've got two minor leaguers pitching (one was called up
    intentionally and the other replaces an injured Bob Walk).
    
    Not to make excuses, but VanSlyke is out of the lineup and that's a
    pretty big blow for the Pirates.  Offensively he was on a streak, and
    defensively...well, there's none better.  In the loss to the Astros the
    other night, two balls were hit over Gary Varsho's head in center that
    VanSlyke would have had.  Those led to the winning runs.  I don't
    understand why Leyland doesn't move Bonds to center and put Curtis
    Wilkerson in left.
    
    But every team hits a slump and it looks like it's the Pirates' turn. 
    It's much better to lose out of the division than in it.  I just hope
    this doesn't last as long as the Reds' faulter.
    
    	--dan'l (who'll be at Three Rivers on the 18th to see the Mets
    		 lose)

    I'll be rootin' for the Braves to stomp the Pirates (again) tomorrow
    night.
    
    GO ...........  BRAVES!!!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
    >>Jake -- have you heard anything about the Pirates perhaps making a
    >>trade for Kansas City 3B Kevin Seitzer?
    
    
    >>py
    
    
    Haven't heard anything about it here in Pittsburgh, but then again,
    with the ongoing remodeling going on at the house, haven't seen many
    newspapers or listened to the radio that much.
    
    
    JaKe
    

>    Haven't heard anything about it here in Pittsburgh, but then again,
>    with the ongoing remodeling going on at the house, haven't seen many
>    newspapers or listened to the radio that much.
    

Oh sure, Jake, start working on the "Regular Guys Strip Bar" without
me!

I'll see you in court buddy!!!!


8^)
'Saw    

    
>>Oh sure, Jake, start working on the "Regular Guys Strip Bar" without
>>me!

>>I'll see you in court buddy!!!!

    Nah, I wouldn't start the place without ya.  I ain't got that kind of
    money.
    
    Actually, I own a 100 year old house that  I started to remodel, but
    everytime I  start a new project, 3 more things pop up that need done.
    Like removing a sheet of panelling to find plaster falling off of the
    wall.  So I start removeing the bad plaster only to find that it's all bad,
    And some of the wall studs are in lousy shape.  Found a nice brick wall
    behind one of the walls, though, and decided to fix up the wall.  Spent the
    whole weekend.  Got major blisters the probably look like the ones PeeWee
    has on his palms, but mine are from REAL work.

    As soon as we raise some capital, we'll start work on the "Regular Guys
    Strip Bar", and if it takes off, maybe we can sell franchise rights!!
    
    
    JaKe
    
    

Oh, okay....


Sounds like a job for Steve and Norm....  This Old House in Pittsburgh!


'Saw

    After a major rain delay, the Bucs and Braves started playing again
    around 10:00 last night.  Around midnight I was headed for bed as the
    Braves racked up 4 runs in the 6th and 6 more in the 7th.  The Mets
    were losing 3-1 to LA at this time.
    
    What were the final scores of both games?
    
    Pirate pitching is weak.  Landrum is slumping.  Zane Smith has been
    getting knocked around.  Walk went on the DL.
    
    Pirates had a ragtag lineup in there last night with Redus in center,
    McClenden at first, Wilkerson in right, and Prince catching.  The new
    kid at 3rd, Wehner, finally made an error.  And to top it all off, Jay
    Bell's wife is due any minute and as soon as the labor pains start,
    he's gone and replaced with a rookie.
    
    	--dan'l

    Re -1
    Not a happy night for Pittsburg fans, but then again the bright side is
    that the Mets lost also.

         Atlanta 10   Pittsburg 3    -    Los Angeles 3   N.Y 1

                                   Richard

                              <<< Note 92.129 by SHALOT::MEDVID "boys have wants, girls have needs" >>>
                                                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 I know what boys want, but what do girls need?

 ;^)

    Dan'l
    
    Wehner did make an error lasted night, BUT, the guy also went 4 for 4,
    and got on on a walk also.  So, out of 5 trips to the plate, he got on
    base 5 times...not too shabby...The error came in the 6 run seventh,
    and wasn't the reason they lost it.  
    
    Rookie(just up from the minors and on his way back down today) Paul
    Miller was called up specifically to start lasted nights game.  
    He pitched 5 complete innings of 3 hit baseball until he got in trouble
    in the sixth.  He walked the leadoff hitter of the 6th, then gave up a
    single, then walked the 3rd batter to loda the bases.  Leyland yanked
    him in favor of Landrum and the fllodgates opened.  Landrum walked the
    next batter to force in a run and then gave up a couple of hits, by the
    time the inning was over, the Braves had the lead for good.
    
    The 6 run 7th, with 5 of the 6 runs being earned, didn't help matters,
    either.  The injury train hath stopped at the Pirates gate and they
    better get healthy in a hurry cause the Mutts will be breathing down
    their backs soon.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs drop 5th straight to da Braves, 8-6.
    
    The Pirates had a 6-1 lead and the Braves got two 3 run homers.
    
    The Bucs are headed out of Atlanta and into St Louis where they
    hopefully can get back on the winning track.
    
    The Braves swept the Bucs season series in Atlanta, winning all 6
    games.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Well, it's confirmed.  Deon Sanders is as big a show off,
    rub-it-in-your-face a$$hole in baseball as he is in football.  He hit
    the go-ahead homer and as it sailed out of the park he took a wide
    turn, hit first with a sideways stride, and continually banged his hand
    to his batting helmet in a "wake me up, did I do that" manner.  I was
    hoping Lind or Bell would trip him.
    
    The clock is ticking for Sanders because someone is going to clean his
    for good one of these Sundays in the NFL.  Let's hope it happens during
    the preseason so we don't have to watch this stuff through December.
    
    VanSlyke will be back Friday.  Don Slaught should be back soon after. 
    Now if the Pirate pitching would break out of its slump, especially the
    middle relief, around this time, Pittsburgh fans have little to worry
    about.
    
    	--dan'l

    I have a stupid question.  Why are the Pirates sometimes called
    the Bucs?!
    
    Glen.

    Bucs is short for Buccaneer, another name for a Pirate.  I get asked
    that question about three times a year so it's not stupid.  Pittsburgh
    has abominated even further by calling them the Buccos.
    
    	--dan'l

    Anybody know where the Pirates keep their buccaneers???
    
    Under their Buckin' Hats!!!!!(8^0*
    
    JaKe
    

    Thanks JAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am rolling!!!!!!!!!!!1111
    
    REK

>  <<< Note 92.138 by FDCV06::KING "If the shoe fits... BUY IT!!!!!!!!!!!!" >>>
>                -< Now, I have to get the coffee of my screen >-
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


You know, if DEC was smart, they'd make terminals with a kind of glass
that coffee could clean.  That way, when we spew coffee all over the
screen, we'd actually be something useful.....

8^)

    Geez, and I always thought buck-an-ear was expensive corn.
    
    Ya never know, ya know?
    
    lEe

    Pirates broke the 8-game losing streak on Ozzie Smith's throwing error
    yesterday, beating the Cards 2-1.  Believe it or not, they have a
    5�-game lead on the second place cards and a 6-game lead on the Mets
    and still have the second best record in baseball.  VanSlyke should be
    back any day now, just in time to meet the Mets at Shea.
    
    	--dan'l

    Da Bucs lost tonite to The New Yuck Mutts and "Toot" Gooden, 7-1.
    
    Zane Smith, for the 5th consecutive outing, didn't last until the 6th
    inning.  Got nailed for 4 runs in the 5th, then the Mutts got to
    Vincente Palacios in the 6th for 3 more runs and the game was history.
    
    The Mutts broke their 7 game losing streak and are now 6-1/2 games out
    of first.  Depending on what the Cardinals do, they will be either
    5-1/2 or 4-1/2 games out after tonite.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Dem Dam Bucs lost again to the Mutts 4-3 today.
    
    Drabek, now 10-11, didn't last thru the third, he pitched 2-1/3 innings
    to be precise.
    
    The Bucs have lost 10 of their lasted 12.
    Their starting pitching in that stretch has sipped big time.  Zane
    Smith can't seem to pitch past the 5th anymore, Drabek gets clobbered
    in the first 2 or 3 innings, and then either gets yanked or settles
    down.  In the games where the starting pitchers have turned over leads
    to the bullpen late in the game, the bullpen has squandered the lead
    with the utmost of ease.
    
    HELP
    
    
    JaKe
    

    And the answer is:
    
    Bucs are to NL as Red Sox are to AL.
    
    Sorry, Jake (in tones from the charlie the tuna ads of long ago)
    
    A&W

    Bucs drop another one, they have now lost 11 of their last 13, to the
    Cards tonite, 5-1.  John Smiley started and didn't get thru the fifth
    inning, giving up 4 runs.
    
    Bucs lead is now down to 4 games over the Cards, and 5-1/2 over the
    Mutts.
    
    JaKe
    

    Sheeeeeeit, if things keep going the way they are, I'll have to step
    into the Crow Cafe at the end of the season and order up a heaping
    helping of the bird for some of the things I said earlier in the season
    about Barry Bonds.
    
    Bonds is following his MVP season, crybaby spring training, and
    horrible slump in April and May with nothing but another MVP caliber
    season.  
    
    Lasted night he hit 2 2-run homers to pace the Bucs to beat the
    Cardinals, 4-3 and increase their NL East lead to 7 games.  The second
    homer came in the bottom of the 11th inning with the Bucs trailing 3-2
    and won te game.
    
    Bonds is 2nd in the league in RBI, is hitting nearer .300 every day,
    and making things happen.
    
    
    The Bucs are ahead of their record attendance pace set last year, and
    figure to beat that attendance figure, (2.08 million).
    
    
    JaKe
    

Well, the Buccos are 6-0 so far against the Phils this year.  And I seem to
recall that Drabek owns the Phils - at least he did last year...

So what am I trying to say - time for this Phillie streak to stop.  A good
Phillie fan is a depressed-cause-their-team-actually-blows Phillie fan.  

Hopefully the Bucs can squeeze any hope out of them this week.

Warren

    Dem Buccos broke the Phillies 13 game winning streak lasted night,
    winning 4-3.  Doug Drabek got the W and is now 11-11.  
    
    Bucs lead stands at 7 games, the Cards beat the Mutts, who are now
    9-1/2 games back.
    
    
    JaKe
    

 � A good Phillie fan is a depressed-cause-their-team-actually-blows
 � Phillie fan.  
 
 Consume excrement and expire.
 
 Bob Hunt

>>   <<< Note 92.149 by SHALOT::HUNT "Who invented liquid soap and why ???" >>>
>>         -< Haven't hated the Bucs in ages; maybe it's time to renew >-

>> � A good Phillie fan is a depressed-cause-their-team-actually-blows
>> � Phillie fan.  
 
>> Consume excrement and expire.
 
>> Bob Hunt

    
    Now Now, Bob, The opinions expressed in here are not necessarily those
    of the management!!!!
    
    JaKe
    
    

    The Bucs continued their dominance over the Phillies lasted night,
    making them 7-0 vs the Phils this year.  The Bucs have won the last 14
    games between the 2 teams.
    
    John Smiley got his 14th win, and Barry Bonds robbed John Kruk of a
    2-run homer by scaling the left field wall and reaching over to make
    the catch, then doubling the runner off of first base.  Bonds also had
    an RBI double in the game.  Attendance was 42,000+, and the Bucs are
    now ahead of the record setting pace of lasted year.
    
    Tonite is the last game of the 3 game series with the Phillies, and
    since I'm going to the game, the Bucs will probably lose.  The Bucs
    have lost every game that I've gone to in 3 Rivers this year.
    
    
    JaKe
    

>   <<< Note 92.149 by SHALOT::HUNT "Who invented liquid soap and why ???" >>>
>         -< Haven't hated the Bucs in ages; maybe it's time to renew >-
>
> � A good Phillie fan is a depressed-cause-their-team-actually-blows
> � Phillie fan.  
> 
> Consume excrement and expire.
> 
> Bob Hunt
>
Thanks.  Always feels good to bug a Phillie fan.  Sure I hate the Mets
(hey, who doesn't) but there's always a special place in my hate for
Philadelphia.  I had to spend 77-81 in Philly (at Penn) and endure the
only moment of Philly non-ineptness during their entire franchise history.   

But things are right again - to before the 76-83 era.  And throw in the
fact that the Flyers were golfing for two months while the Penguins were
winning the Cup.

Hey, I would've moved to Charlotte, too.

Warren

    Hey Warren, doncha consider the Penn_relay's_annual_Fashion_Show_at_
    the_330_2nd_Level to be of SOME value????
    
    Bested colors *I* ever seen!!!
    (not to mention the rah-rah's???)
    
    Kev
    
    

    Went to Three Rivers yesterday to watch the Bucs complete their utter
    annihilation of the Mets and knock them back to 13� games out.

    The promised tickets from Orlando Merced (a possible NL ROTY) were not
    waiting for my friend as he was expecting so conversation of "Boy, I
    hope the dugout isn't in our way" turned into a gametime scramble for
    four descent seats.  But at the start of the game it's pretty much a
    buyers market and Yo Mahman was more than happy to unload a few for
    face value.

    Bucs are still in a pennant race with the Cards, but Pittsburgh looks
    awfully tough.  Now, could it be that they're headed for a world series
    with the Twinkies?  It would be too good to beat the Minnesota
    brie-eaters in two championship series in the same year.

    	--dan'l

    Bucs are in Philly tonite if the rain stops.
    
    THe Pirates swept the Mutts this weekend in 3 rivers.  They have won 8
    of their last 10 after breaking out of that horendous slump.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Two outs, bottom of the 9th, Pirates leading the Phils by 1 run, and
    Dickie Thon hits a two run homer to win the game.  I take full
    responsibility for this Pirates loss because:
    
    Jinx #1: Earlier last evening I switched my Penguins license plate
    	     to the Pirates one.  Figured the mistique of the Stanley Cup
    	     had worn off and the Pirates needed my support more.
    
    Jinx #2: Stan Belinda came on in relief of Smiley in the 8th.  He
    	     looked great and I blurted out, "Stan's got his stuff
    	     tonight."
    
    Jinx #3: After Belinda got the second out in the ninth, I inexcusably
    	     yelled out, "Just one more, Stan, and we go 7� up on the
    	     cards."
    
    Sorry, all you Bucs fans out there.  I'll never be so irrational again.
    
    	--dan'l

 RE:

 >>   	     Figured the mistique of the Stanley Cup
 >>   	     had worn off and the Pirates needed my support more.
 
It hasn't worn off for me!  Whenever I'm feeling down (like last night after
the ph&^*&cking phillies game)  I just tell myself that: Hey, the Pens won
the Stanley Cup!  They rule the hockey world!  Then I feel better.

As for the bucs, I do wish I had more confidence in the bucco bullpen.  
What about this Mason guy?  Think Leyland will use him in the later innings.
I've seen him twice and he looked pretty good.

Warren

    
    >>   <<< Note 92.156 by SHALOT::MEDVID "so drowned you were angels" >>>
    >>                      -< Or was JaKe at the Vet? >-
                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                               |||||||||||||||||||||||
    
    Nope Dan'l,  Had the noght off from work but was at home with the wife
    and munchkins.  in fact, I didn't even have the game on the radio or
    telly.
    
    Now for the good news for the Bucs, when the playoffs start, and it
    will take one helluve choke job by the Bucs to not win the East, I
    won't be able to attend any of the games at 3 Rivers 'cause I'll be in
    Colorado Springs.  Ditto for the World Series.  Leaving the 'burgh a
    month from tomorrow and returning on the 19th of October.  SO, I won't
    be able to work my jinx by showing up for any games.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Dem freakin' Bucs just lost their third straight to the Filthydelfia
    Phillies, 4-3, in 11 innings.  The Bucs had trailed 3-0 but tied it
    only to lose it in the 11th.
    
    The Bucs lost the first two games of the series in the ninth, and the
    last one, as stated before, in the 11th.  RELIEF PITCHING IS SIPPING
    BIGTIME!!!!!
    
    The Bucs are now 8-4 vc the Phillies.  The Phillies have won the last 4
    meetings between the 2 teams.
    
    THe Bucs play the Giants in 3 Rivers Stadium tomorrow night, Doug
    Drabek will be on the mound for the Bucs.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    -dan'l--
    
    I see by your "reply" you caught some of the Bucco game lasted night.
    
    Bill "F$%king" Landrum blew another one.  
    
    Is it time for the Pirate Mgmt to make some kind of move to try and
    obtain someone who can come in in the late innings and actually get
    somebody out, whilst protecting a lead?????
    
    Between Landrum and Belinda, I don't know who has blown more leads in
    the past few weeks.
    
    The Bucs sure are trying to give St. Louis the NL East.
    
    
    JaKe
    

>    Between Landrum and Belinda, I don't know who has blown more leads in
>    the past few weeks.
    
    JaKe, you forgot to qualify that with:
    
    	"with two outs in the 9th inning."
    
    In four of their last seven games, the Pirates have been an out away
    from winning and have lost.  That is not the way to win a division, let
    alone a pennant, and a world series.
    
    	--dan'l
    

>    Between Landrum and Belinda, I don't know who has blown more leads in
>    the past few weeks.

Well, How about this Roger Mason guy?  I've only seen him twice - both in the
middle innings - and he looked pretty impressive.  He had a save last night.

Well the Parts start their final west-coast trip today.  Last time they were
4-6. They have 2 in LA, 3 in SD, 3 in SF. This trip is usually a good measure
of their eventual success.  I think the last time they ruled the west was in
1979...  St. Louie has to make the trip too, though.

I'm still feeling pretty good about the Bucs chances. They should/could have
blown it open by now, but when it does get close, they have sucked it and 
played better all year long.  I will feel better if they survive this thip
though.

Warren on Sports

    Bucs are up by 7 games over the Cards.  So far on the Left Coast road
    trip, they are 3-1, losing Sunday to the Padres.  The Bucs are 78-52.
    
    Tonite, Bob Walk faces the Giants.
    
    Yesterday, Stan Belinda goth the win althoug he couldn't keep the
    Giants from tying it in the eight.  The Bucs scored one in the top of
    the ninth to take a 9-8 lead and they won it by that score.
    
    
    BUCS IN'91!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Dem Buccos beat the Giants tonite(this AM.), 5-3 in 10 innings.
    
    A correction to -.1, the Bucs are 6-1 on the road trip, with I think 2
    games left before returning to the 'Burgh.
    
    Tom Prince homered in the ninth to tie the game.
    
    The Cardinals losted to the Dadgers also, so the Pirates lead is now 8
    games.
    
    The Bucs have put playoff tickets and World Series(optimism is
    wonderful, ain't it) on sale and my only regret is that I won't be in
    Pittsburgh for either.  Guess I'll have to watch the games on the tube
    from Colorado!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    

    John Smiley won his 17th game vs 6 losses today, beating the Giants. 
    Mason finished out the game.  Steve Bouchele(sp?) and Andy Van Slyke
    hit homers as the Bucs beat the Giants for the third consecutive game.
    The Bucs are 7-1 on the West Coast trip and their record now stands at
    80-52.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    >>                      -< It's spelled Booshell. >-
    
    Actually Jeff, it's spelled Buechele.
    
    Bucs are 80-52, leading the NL East by 9-1/2 over the Cards who lost
    today.
    
    John Wehner underwent surgery today to remove a ruptured disk in his
    back.  It is not yet known whether he will return this season.
    
    The Pirates were off today but start a four game series with the
    Dodgers in 3 Rivers stadium tomorrow.
    
    Barry Bonds needs 3 rbi to become the first Pirate to have back-to-back
    100 rbi seasons since Willie Stargell did it in 1972-1973.
    
    PIRATES STATS:
    
    BATTING:
    		AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI    AVG
    Wehner	106	15	36	7	0	0	7      .340
    Bonilla	485	83	151	38	4	16	84     .311
    Heaton	13	0	4	1	0	0	1      .308
    McClendon	130	19	38	5	0	7	20     .292
    Bonds	427	78	124	21	4	22	97     .290
    Merced	339	71	98	16	2	7	42     .289
    Buechele	21	4	6	1	0	1	5      .286
    Espy	42	2	12	2	0	1	8      .286
    LaValliere	283	23	80	9	1	3	34     .283
    Bell	510	83	139	28	5	13	55     .273
    Prince	22	3	6	2	0	1	2      .273
    Slaught	172	11	46	13	1	1	23     .267
    Lind	403	41	105	13	4	3	41     .261
    VanSlyke	416	76	107	16	7	15	77     .257
    Patterson	4	1	1	0	0	0	0      .250
    Redus	204	39	51	9	1	7	20     .250
    Varsho	153	20	38	10	2	3	20     .248
    King	109	16	26	1	1	4	18     .239
    Tomlin	43	5	9	1	0	0	2      .209
    Wilkerson	146	16	27	7	1	0	11     .185
    Drabek	71	6	13	1	0	0	1      .183
    Smith	56	3	10	3	0	0	7      .179
    Walk	30	2	5	1	0	1	4      .167
    Smiley	57	2	7	0	0	0	3      .123
    Palacios	14	0	1	0	0	0	0      .071
    Belinda	7	0	0	0	0	0	1      .000
    Garcia	5	0	0	0	0	0	0      .000
    Landrum	4	0	0	0	0	0	0      .000
    Kipper	1	0	0	0	0	0	0      .000
    Rodriguez	1	0	0	0	0	0	0      .000
    Mason	0	1	0	0	0	0	0      .000
    Bullet	0	0	0	0	0	0	0      .000
    
    PITCHING:
    		w   l	s	ip	h	er	bb	so	era
    Mason	2   0	2	20	11	3	2	12    1.35
    Rodriguez	1   0	2	6-2/3	4	1	5	6     1.35
    Tomlin	8   4	0	136	117	41	43	78    2.71
    Landrum	2   4	17	65-2/3	63	20	15	39    2.74
    Walk	7   2	0	86	69	28	29	53    2.93
    Drabek	13  11	0	191-2/3	206	71	51	110   3.33
    Smiley	17  8	0	170	166	63	38	109   3.34
    Smith	12  10	0	178	193	67	24	90    3.39
    Belinda	4   4	14	67-1/3	42	27	31	65    3.61
    Patterson	3   1	2	55	52	23	12	50    3.76
    Palacios	6   3 	2	73-1/3	61	31	35	57    3.80
    Heaton	3   3	0	60	58	26	17	27    3.90
    Kipper	2   2	3	52-1/3	59	26	18	30    4.47
    
    Home Attendance(64 dates)
    1991:  1,650,203(avg. 25,784)
    1990:  1,595,377(avg. 24,928)
    
    
    JaKe
    

Thanks for the stats Jake.

I find this one pretty interesting:

    		w   l	s	ip	h	er	bb	so	era
    Mason	2   0	2	20	11	3	2	12    1.35

I'd like to Leyland use Mason in a few situations where the game is on the
line to see how he does.  Because these numbers bother me just a bit:

    Landrum	2   4	17	65-2/3	63	20	15	39    2.74
    Belinda	4   4	14	67-1/3	42	27	31	65    3.61

Do they print the new "blown saves" saves stat in the Press?

With STL losing last night the magic# is done to 21.

Warren

    re .169:
    
    >	Do they print the new "blown saves" saves stat in the Press?
    
    USA Today uses it in their box scores.
    
    
    py

    Bucs lost the first game of the doubleheader tonite, 4-3.
    
    The Bucs scored 2 in the eighth to tie it, 3-3, but Stan Belinda gave
    up a home run to Mike Scoscia and the Bucs went down the drain.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    The Bucs won the second game of the doubleheader, 3-1.  Zane smith
    pitched the complete game, and gave up 3 hits, winning his 13th game of
    the season.  It was his 4th complete game of the season.
    
    With the split in the twinbill, depending on what St Louis does in San
    Diego tonite, the Bucs will either be up by 9 or 10 games.
    
    Jay bell hit his 14th HR in the second game.
    
    
    JaKe
    

The Bucs dropped 3 of 4 to Dodgers but maintained a 9.5 game lead over STL.

The magic# is down to 18 with 26 games remaining, all against the NL east.
They're 41-23 against the NL east so far this season.  40-32 against the west.
They're 41-27 at home and 40-28 on the road.

The Bucs record by team so far:

	CHI  8-6
	MON  9-3
	NY   8-4
	PHL  8-4
	STL  8-6

	ATL  3-9
	CIN 10-2
	HOU  8-4
	LA   5-7
	SD   7-5
	SF   7-5

The only losing record is against ATL and LA.  Great.  Why couldn't the Reds
repeat?

Warren

    The Bucs won today in a wind swept game in Chicago, not sure of the
    score but I think it was 12-10.
    
    The Bucs had a 6-0 lead at one point in the game, then squandered it
    with their illustrious relief pitching staff.  They entered the ninth
    inning down 9-7 but Orlando Merced hit a 3-run homer to put the Bucs
    up.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Pirates are on ESPN tonight putting the finishing touches on the Cards. 
    What does the 'H' that they are sporting on their right shoulders stand
    for?  Did somebody die?  That hasn't been there all season has it?
    
    	--dan'l

    Bucs won 3-1.  Don't have any details of the game, though.
    
    >>What does the 'H' that they are sporting on their right shoulders stand
    >>for?  Did somebody die?  That hasn't been there all season has it?
    
    >>	--dan'l
    
    John Hallihan(sp?) the Pirates equipment manager and clubhouse
    supervisor(or something like that) died today.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    If'n the Buccos go .500 for the rest of the season, the Cards will only
    be able to lose 1 or 2 games if they are to catch the Bucs.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs beat the Cards lasted night, 6-5 on Cecil Espy's sac fly in the
    ninth.  The Bucs lead the Cards now by 11-1/2 games, their biggest lead
    since 1972.
    
    Barry Bonds became the first Pirate since Willie Stargell(1973 & 1974)
    to drive in 100 or more runs in 2 consecutive seasons.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Dem Buccos came from behind in the bottom of the ninth to win it
    tonite.
    
    The Bucs entered the ninth trailing 1-0 to the Cards, they scored one
    run and then Curtis Wilkerson blasted a grand slam and the Bucs won it
    5-1.
    
    Wish i was going to be here for the World Series!
    
    JaKe
    

    The Bucs lost tonite to the Phillies, 8-3.
    
    When the roster gets pared down to 25 for the playoffs, look for Bob
    "Round Tripper" Kipper to not be on it.  Kipper of late has been giving
    up homers left and right, and the Bucs have to get rid of 2 pitchers
    come the playoffs.  i figure Vincente Palacios to be the other cut.
    
    The Bucs did get one step closer to clinching the NL East tonite,
    though, cause the Mutts beat the Cards, 1-0.
    
    The race between the Cards and the Bucs this year resembled the Pirates
    vs. Mets of 3 years ago, when the Bucs stayed close to the Mets until
    the second week of September, then quietly faded from the race leaving
    the Mets to take the title.
    
    JaKe
    

    ********THE PIRATES WIN THE NL EAST*************************
    
    By beating the Phillies yesterday, the Bucs won the NL East for the
    second consecutive year.  They are the first team in the National
    League to win consecutive division titles since both the Dodgers and
    Phillies did it in '77-78.
    
    The Bucs now have a record of 91-59, best in the majors, and now can
    sit back and watch to see who their victims will be in the NLCS.
    
    I'm hoping that Leyland doesn't play all of the extras for the lasted
    10 games and plays the regualrs most of the time so's they can maintain
    their sharpness.
    
    BUCS ARE GOIN' ALL THE WAY IN '91!!!
    
    
    
    JaKe
    

�    BUCS ARE GOIN' ALL THE WAY IN '91!!!
 
 Better make it quick.   Bonilla's got his bags packed and Bonds ain't
 far behind.
 
 The worst two words in the entire language for Pirates fans are
 "free" and "agency".
 
 Bob Hunt

       Congrats Jake, and as Dan woulda said, I've always been a closet
    Bucs fan!!1
                                 Denny

    Your a Closet Pirates fan too hey denny...Being the Huge BaseBall
    fan I am (can proberbly name about 1/2 the teams but not even 1 player
    from each) I only watch the sox's and if they done make the Playoffs
    I dont watch any baseball at all.  But You have to have teams in other
    divisions and the Pirates have the Best team logo next to the chicago
    bulls and the Blackhawks... SO I say Go Pirates (Best BaseBall Logo):-)
    
    							M_Air_Brooks

    > Your a Closet Pirates fan too hey denny...
    
       Absolutely!! I think BobHunt has the right idea on this frontrunning
    Biz.
                                      Denny

    	What a coincidence, I'm a closet Pirates fan too!

    In memory of JOJ:
    
    WOW!  Love them Bucs.  They've always been one of my favorite teams!
    
    JoP

       Welcome aboard lEe. Bob Ryan had a good story about the Pats today.
    He mentioned his FRAA (Front-Runners Assoc. of America) card. Looks
    like we need to get some in here too!
                                       Denny

The Bucs, the bucsters, buckeroo, buckerooski, the bucs stops here, 
bucmania, buczilla, buckbuck, uncle buck, bucking bronco, bucaholic,
bucinstien...I've allway's liked the Bucs!



Steve

    
       JoP would be proud of youse guys!  
    
                                                 glen j.

    
    
    How have the Bucs done against LA this year?  I know they've struggled
    against Atlanta...  Anybody know the specific head-to-head records?
    
    
    Charlie
    (formerly "Lemieux est le mieux")
    

    
    Dodgers have beaten the Pirates 7 0f 12 this year.
    Braves have beaten the Pirates 9 of 12 this year.
    

    Of the 400,000 tickets available for the 4 playoff and the 3 world 
    series games, the Pirates have sold 313.197 thru Monday.
    
    47,000 tickets have been sold for the Oct 9th NLCS opener.
    
    
    DIH
    
    JaKe
    

�    Of the 400,000 tickets available for the 4 playoff and the 3 world 
�    series games, the Pirates have sold 313.197 thru Monday.
    
    Maybe T is right about Pittsburgh.  Hard to believe they've only sold
    313+ tickets.  What I really want to know is who bought 0.197 tickets
    and what that entitles them to -- maybe watching the first pitch being
    thrown out?

    Hardy Freakin' Har, Mac!!!
    
    DIH
    
    JaKe
    

       What's the holdup Jake? In most places they sell out in hours.
                                    Denny

    
    >>   What's the holdup Jake? In most places they sell out in hours.
    >>                                Denny
    
    Probably 'cause I didn't buy any tickets cause I'm in Colorado!!
    (8^)*
    
    DIH
    
    JaKe
    

CITY'S BLACK EYE FADING ALREADY
reprinted from The Pittsburgh Press, 10-22-1991

By 

Gene Collier

	What follows is perhaps an unnecessarily close look at a black eye, the
one Pittsburgh got from the final line of the final box score of the final 
National League game of the season.

A---46932.

	It represents more than 11,000 empty seats, and social critics
everywhere, from this squeaky chair to San Francisco to USA Hooray to the New
York network towers, decried it in tones appropriate for some dark mental rot
that had infected the local populace.
	As the post-season approached, the Pirates had roughly 407,000 tickets
to sell for four playoff games and three World Series games.  The fact is,
Pittsburgh baseball fans bought about 99.6% of them.  The World Series games
were sold out more than two weeks in advance.  Game 1 of the playoffs was
watched by the biggest Pittsburgh baseball crowd ever, until Game 2 outdrew it
by a couple of hundred,  and game 6 drew more than 54,500 after a weather
forecast of rain and temperatures in the 40s.
	Still, though they failed to purchase less than one-half of 1 percent
of the total postseason tickets, a black eye was sustained, just as you can get
a black eye even when you are hit by less than one-half of one percent of the
actual surface of a 2 by 4.
	As with most black eyes, this one was real avoidable, and the fact that
it wasn't avoided still says something that's not too promising, but how close
it came to being avoided might at least provide some psychological ointment to
whomever might need it.
	First, the Pirates faced a critical decision on how to distribute
playoff tickets with a face value of $40, a 33% increase from the 1990 price
and a figure which they have no control.  The National League fixes that price. 
In most situations, tickets are sold in strips, not on an individual game
basis.  You want game 1, you buy a strip of tickets for all home games, game 1,
game 2, game 6, and game 7.
	The Pirates say they thought this:  Because of the recession and their
desire to see as many people see as many games as possible, they would make the
tickets available on an individual ggame basis.  They wouldn't make you buy
something you didn't want, like game 6 for whatever reason, to get something
you did want, like game 2, for example.
	That might have been the sum and total intent of their policy, but it
might also have been that had everyone who wanted a ticket been forced to buy
four, they would have been looking at four embarrassing crowds instead of one.
	Implicit in this plan, they knew, was the real possibility they could
get stung in Game 6 and/or Game 7 because it's so hard to market those games
before the playoffs start.  You might not be able to delivir them.
	That was the Pirates' mistake, however large or small or in between.
	When the Pirates won game 5 one week ago yesterday in Atlanta, though,
they still had 48 hours to sell game 6, for which they got an adequate 54,508
on a cold night.  But when the fellas lost game 6, they had barely a business
day to sell game 7.
	Fans miscalculated the flow of the series as well.
	Game 6 featured Atlanta's Steve Avery, against whom the Pirates had
trouble leaving the infield in Game 2, against an injured Doug Drabek, but fans
put almost no stock in the possibility of a Game 7.
	"If we sold 7,000 tickets for game 6 after the fifth game," said
Pirates vice president Rick Cerrone, "we sold 700 for game 7."
	Had the Pirates drawn merely 53,000 for game 7, they would have
announced the largest attendance for one city in a postseason playoff since
1959, more than 222,000 for four games.  They would have told you that not
since the Los Angeles Dodgers drew three crowds in excess of 90,000 to The
Coliseum for games 3,4,and 5 of the 1959 World Series had one city drawn more
in a postseason series.
	But they fell short with 216,320, 6,000 short of the four games that
drew some 222,000 in St. Louis for the 1987 NL Championship series.
	Pittsburgh's baseball fans bought nearly 2,500,000 tickets(2,065,302
were used) in the regular season without the incentive of a pennant race after
Aug. 15, then bought nearly 407,000 postseason tickets, including the World
Series that Wouldn't.
	That's nearly 3 million tickets, hardly the profile of a bad baseball
town, so whoever said that is a certifiable idiot.  Oh, I said that.
	No need to thank me.
	What happened to Game 7 was that the fans were likely too tapped out,
and emotionally too wiped out, to fill the vacuous building one more time,
although the filled 80 percent of it.
	What this says about the missing fans for game 7 is only that they made
a judgement call on whether what they thought were the remaining tickets for
Game 7 were worth the price.
	Those people decided, wuite logically, and for whatever combination of
dozens of what I truly think are legitimate reasons, that Game 7 was not.
	So, Why the Black Eye?????
	It's this.  In almost every other big-league city, if not every other
big-league city, logic would not carry the day of game 7.  Passion would, and
they would fill the place.  Passion would rewrite the wuestion from "Are the
remaining tickets for game 7 worth the price after all this outlay and
heartache and frustration?" to "Do I want to be in the ballpark when the local
nine win the pennant??"
	There's your black eye, Pittsburgh, but hey, it doesn't look that bad;
it's starting to fade already.
	Does Pittsburgh love baseball right now? Probably so.  Is it psychotic
about baseball? No.
	I only bring the whole thing up again because I'm afraid that psychosis
might one day be the price of survival.                Gene Collier

JaKe

    --dan'l
    
    I agree with ya on Collier being headed to the big time.  I look
    forward every day to his columns.  Lots of laughs interjected with the
    trufe.
    
    JaKe
    

Collier writes almost as well as I do.......


8^)

    Good thing you got EMT training, Saw, in case you break your arm
    pattin' yourself on the back!  :*)
    
    lEe

    The Bucs made another offer to Bobby Bonilla in the lasted few days.
    It was something like $18.5 million for four years with an option year
    in year 5 worth $4 or 4.5 million.  That's either $22.5 or 23 million
    for 5 years.  The moron turned it down.
    
    Look for the Bucs to come up with another offer in the nexted week. 
    Also look for Bonilla to sign for some ludicrous amount of money that
    he is not really worthy of.  Hope he hits .092 nexted year.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    
    JaKe,
    
    	I hope he hits .092 too..............FOR THE BUCCOS!
    
    	Go Reds! :^)
    
    Clay

    
    >>	I hope he hits .092 too..............FOR THE BUCCOS!
    
    Claybone:
    
    Bonilla won't play for the Bucs nexted year, guaranteed!!!!
    He'll get some big time contract in New York or California and then
    proceed to have a horrible 3 or 4 years.  It's the pattern.
    
    JaKe
    

    .205
    
    JaKe,
    
       You got the right numbers(.092), only in the wrong 
    order.  He'll hit .290
    
    
    
       For the METS!  :-) :-) :-)
    
    						 glen j.

    I believe the offer in .205 also included a $1 million signing bonus.
    
    If owners are willing to pay outrageous salaries to free agents these
    days, you can't fault a Bonilla or any other player in his situation
    for trying to get every last buck the market will bear.  (I'll agree
    with glen j.'s prediction that Bonilla will end up with the Mets.)
    
    
    py

    Personally, I think Bonilla is a liability on defense, and only
    slightly better than Van Slyke with a bat.  Let's spread that money
    around... Lind, Bell, Merced.
    
    Later Bobby... it's been surreal...
    
    Rick

    Onme of the fist stops in the Bobby Bonilla Tour across the USA 1991 was
    in Philadelphia Saturday. He visited with Phiilies President Bill Giles
    and went to Lenny Dykstra's house. The Phillies termed the meetings
    "positive" and made what was called a "competitive" offer. It is
    beleived that the offer was in the range of $ 25 million over 5 years.
    
    Dykstra showed Bonilla around the area where Lenny lives (the Main
    Line, just outside of Philadelphia). Apparently, Bobby was looking for
    an area to buy a home, in case he signs with the Phils.
    
    I wouldn't rate it more than a 25% chance.
    
    Dennis
     

    Dennis, I disagree.. I would put the Pills chance about 40%...
    
    REK

    Bonilla signs with the Mets for undisclosed amount of "Too Damn Much"
    money.
    
    The guy ain't worth $26-30 Mil.  hope he falls flat on his dipsh!t
    face, greedy SOB.  For that matter, hope the Mutts finish last in the
    NL East next year.
    
    JaKe
    

I heard on the radio this morning it was 29 mil.....


Sheesh.

    
     Bobby Bonilla did what 99.44% of us would have done if someone
    offered us $29 million to play in our hometown...he took it.

yeah Jake he did it so his dad can watch him play all the time not for the 
money...:^)

he now makes more than his Highness...expect Sir Roger of Crydoom to stalk
down Yawkey Way soon demanding a raise...

why won't they pay Viola? dumb dumb dumb....

    So when does the Rickey/Roger/Jose watch start?  You know, predict the
    day and time that those three will start the 'holdout' and
    'renogiation' phases of their careers...I won't be surprised if Clemens
    passes - but Rickey and Jose are almost sure bets.  Darryl is a good
    possibility also.
    
    JD

>   Bobby Bonilla did what 99.44% of us would have done if someone
>   offered us $29 million to play in our hometown...he took it.

For that kind of money I'd play in anybody's home town.

    
    I think Jose's thinking is that Bonilla should go for all that he can
    get.  His comment was something like " he should go for $35mil and they
    could start their own league together."  I doubt he's going to ask to
    renegotiate.
    
    Bruce

       Hey JaKe,
    
    
    
    		METS in '92!  ------->:-)
                                                       
       Re: Roger/Jos�/Ricky
    
       No doubt that Ricky will be the first to whine, claiming
    "Bonilla ain't half as good as me, so I deserve more."  
    I doubt you'd see either Roger or Jose trying to renegotiate.
       
    
                                                 glen j.

JaKe,

It's really quite simple.   If youze guys had bothered to fill those 39,000 
empty seats for Game 7, Bonilla would have stayed.

Bob Hunt

    
> It's really quite simple.   If youze guys had bothered to fill those 39,000 
> empty seats for Game 7, Bonilla would have stayed.
  
    Okay, who let MrT into BobHunt's account?
    
    Lest there be any doubt whatsoever, Pittsburgh's attendance problems
    or lack thereof had no affect on the loss of Bonilla whatsoever.
    Pittsburgh actually made several fantastic offers to Bonilla, both
    before and after this season.  The fact is that Pittsburgh is the
    smallest market in MLB, smaller even than Seattle and some of the
    other franchises that are in financial trouble.  There's just no
    way that they can afford to lay out $30 million on one player (and if 
    they could, it would only be one, and that one would be Barry Bonds).
         
    Bonds is the next to be gone as this team is quickly dismantled...
    
    glenn
    

Glenn,

Take a chill pill right now, dude.   

$ DEFINE/SYSTEM/EXEC TONGUE$CHEEK "YES"

Whew, that is one sensitive nerve you got there.

Bob Hunt

    
>    Whew, that is one sensitive nerve you got there.
 
    I understood you completely, Bob.  That's why I cracked the (lame)
    joke about MrT getting into your account.  I just used your reply as 
    an intro to my commentary on the Pittsburgh/small market issue, that's 
    all.
    
    glenn
    

    re.225
    
    And baseball will be out of business in 5 or 6 years if'n the current
    trend keeps up.  Just wait till they get their nexted TV contract and
    see how much they DON'T have to play with.  Baseball is going to be in
    BIG money trouble in the nesed few years.
    
    JaKe
    

    Jake, people have been saying that about baseball ever since free
    agency began (and probably even before that).

    Maybe so Mac, but when a person will make $35,802 per game to play
    BASEBALL(judging on him playing 162 games, which he won't so it's
    actually more per game) things IMHO have gone too far.  It's a F__KING
    GAME, or it's supposed to be, it's no longer a game, it's big business.
    
    In a time when there are many companies shutting down, and laying
    people off, and just letting people go, and the economy has to look up
    to see the ground, these bozos are just paying the HUGE contracts and
    turning around to bleed the public by bumping up the ticket prices
    20-25% per year.  
    
    Don't get me wrong, I like baseball and always have, but when it costs
    me close to 2 days pay to take the WHOLE family (me, da MRS., and the 3
    munchkins) to see a game, + the extras the little ones want, it's
    getting out of hand.  Now there's talk that the Pirates wuill go
    exclusively pay per view in the Pittsburgh area within the next year or
    two, to try and make up for the small market they are in.  If they do
    that, they can kiss my ass cause there's many many more things I could
    put my money towards that are better than pay per view, or $16 for a
    decent seat at 3 Rivers.  Wonder when they'll go pay per listen on the
    radio?????   The radio and the newspapers will be my lasted line on
    keeping track of the Pirates then.
    
    JMHO
    
    JaKe
    

    BTW, Larry "and his brother Darryl and his other brother Darryl"
    Doughty will be looking to deal away Barry "Eyes have changed to $$$
    signs" Bonds at the baseball winter meetings.  Doughty said that if he
    can't sign Bonds to a multi-year contract, he'll do his best to trade
    him so they don't end up getting nothing(other than a draft pick) for
    Bonds.
    
    JaKe
    

    The Bucs signed Steve Buechele to a 4 year $11 million contract
    yesterday.  
    
    Mike LaValliere has accepted the Pirates offer of salary arbitration,
    but, word is that LaValliere will be putting his signature on a 3 year
    ~$6 million contract any day now.
    
    Both Jeff king and John Wahner have had back surgery this fall.  King,
    who was thought to have a bulging disc in his back, actually had a
    ruptured disc, which was removed during the surgery.  Prognosis for
    King's recovery is very good.  King will probably become the Pirates
    1st baseman next year.
    
    IMHO, the Bucs should give the Mets a good run this coming season.  The
    Mets have worked at making their pitching better, and their hitting
    better, BUT, I think their defense will suffer some.  Bonilla, in the
    outfield, is just an average player.  he has lousy speed, is lousy at
    getting the ball in his glove, and has a fair arm.  Helluva bargain for
    $5.8 mil/year, Eh??
    
    JaKe
    

    Bob "Round Tripper" Kipper signed with the Minny-soda Twinkies today
    for a reported $1 million.  Sheez, with the gopher balls he throws,
    some batter on the visiting team will probably put one through the roof
    in the MetroDome.
    
    Thanks, Twinkies for taking him off of our hands.
    
    JaKe
    

    The Pirates fired GM Larry Doughty today.  No other details as of right
    now.
    
    JaKe
    

    Whassa mattah?  2 division titles in 2 years ain't good enough?
    
    And I thought Gorman gets crucified.
    
    Mark.

    	I figure this is S.O.P. for Pirates management.  They put all
    kinds of fiscal constraints on their G.M. then fire him when the
    players start to leave the roost.
    
    				/Don

Pirates: "Best team money can't buy"

    Yeah, I can see how they expected him to hold on to Bust-nillia when
    the Mutts offered him 29 million...
    
    

    Pirates signed Barry Bonds to a 1-year 4.7 million dollar contract
    Friday.  Bonds stated that if he doesn't have a long-term deal signed
    by the end of spring training, he will be gone next year.
    
    Free agency was a dirty word in Pittsburgh at the end of the season. 
    They've done a good job of re-signing some key members of the team and
    should still be tough this season.  Bonilla really didn't leave THAT
    big a hole.
    
    	--dan'l

    re .237:
    
    > They've done a good job of re-signing some key members of the team 
    
    Good point; things could have been a lot worse for the Bucs if Buechele
    and LaValliere had signed elsewhere and Bonds had been dealt.
    
    
    py

    Bonia wasn't worth the Buc's he wanted...  The Buc's fans should
    be saying good riddens !!
    
    
    BG

    
    >><<< Note 92.239 by QUASER::HUNTER "Two JaKes... Your Worst Nightmare" >>>
                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    And don't you fergit it, Little'n'Lame!!!!
    
    BTW, speaking of Bonilla, here in Pittsburgh, we have a world class
    aviary, but the mayor, in all of her cheapsh_t ways, wants to close the
    place down.  The latest billboards proclaim:
    
    "FORGET BONILLA, SAVE THE PARROT!!!!  call 1-800-XXX-XXXX and give to
    the save the aviary fund."
    
    Luv It!!!
    
    JaKe
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

>    BTW, speaking of Bonilla, here in Pittsburgh, we have a world class
>    aviary, but the mayor, in all of her cheapsh_t ways, wants to close the
>    place down.  The latest billboards proclaim:
    

Made me remember and old line from a Benny Hill sketch:

	
		And then there was Betty Mavery,
		she 'ad 'er own aviary,
		and the biggest parakeets you ever seen.....



8^)

'Saw    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    The Pirates have named Ted Simmons as their new General Manager.
    He is the third GM in 4 years for the Bucs.
    
    JaKe
    

    Hey Rake...
    
     This is another example of a sorry Pitt. Team trying anything to 
    get the Choke artist label off the team.  Sorry Bucs...  You can't
    get there by playing musical chairs !
    
    BG

    Hey Little'n'Lame
    
    Lets see how many decades it takes before the expansion team that
    Denver is getting even finishes within SIGHT of a playoff team.
    
    JaKe
    

    I predict 3 years...  After all,  Denver is the greatest sports
    city in the world !!
    
    BG

    
    >><<< Note 92.245 by QUASER::HUNTER "Two JaKes... Your Worst Nightmare" >>>

    >>I predict 3 years...  After all,  Denver is the greatest sports
    >>city in the world !!
    
    >>BG
    
    Mr. Moderators,
    
    Shouldn't the above reply be moved to the note it rightfully belongs
    in, 
    
    THE SPORTS JOKE NOTE!!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    

    Lessee, the Pirates are suing the city of Pittsburgh for ~$4.3 million
    that the last mayor supposedly promised them, and the city won't deliver on,
    plus the Bucs want some improvements that were allegedly promised also
    to be done to the stadium.  
    
    Meanwhile, the city has filed a counter-suit for $1.6 million they say
    the Pirates owe them in back rent.  
    
    Legal sources here in the 'Burgh say that the Pirates will lose both
    cases if they go to court.  Speculation is that the current ownership
    is trying to weasel around and get the lease broken and then move the
    team to a larger, more profitable market.
    
    JaKe
    
                                                                               

    Da Bucs signed Doug Drabek to a one year contract worth $4.5 mil, but
    up to $5 mil with incentives.
    
    JaKe
    

    The Bucs avoided arbitration with John Smiley today, signing him to a 1
    year contract for $3.44 million.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs sign Bill Freakin Landrum to a $1.7 mil one year contract.
    
    Sheez, this a__hole has ONE, count it, ONE good year and that was 3
    years ago, and they pay him WAY woo much.  Jay Bell turn in two solid 
    years at ss and cain't even PRY $1 mil out of em.  Same with Jos� Lind.
    
    What's this world coming to, Eh????
    
    JaKe
    
                     

    Probably something to do with seniority and number of years before free
    agency and/or arbitration, Jake.

    Jos� Lind wins his arbitration case and gets $2 mil this year.
    
    JaKe
    

    This is from US9eless) A TODAY:
    
    Barry Bonds showed up, after a mandatory photo session, on a motorcycle
    and wearing a leather jacket.  After a session with a team
    photographer, Bonds refused to pose for a contractually-required
    shooting of his baseball card, for which he receives a $78,000
    licensing check.  "Let them use last year's picture," he said.
    
    
    Ya know, the guy is a good/great ball player, but his IQ is three less
    than his shoe size.  But his head size is in the six figure range.
    
    Personally, and I don't normally go for something like this, I hope the
    guy blows out his knees in the lasted week of the season(he's useless
    in post season anyways) and never plays baseball again.
    
    What an A-Hole!!!!
    
    JaKe
    

    well if he is going to blow out his kness, I would much rather it be
    the first week of the season.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    re-.1
    
    Nah, he's been real productive the lasted two years during the REGULAR
    season, and this being the year he goes free agent, he'll probably be
    trying to have another big one(year, not EGO), so I look for 40-40 out
    of him.  Then on the lasted day of the year, knees disintegrate and
    leave Mr. BigHead with zippo.  Maybe an offer of $100,000 from the
    Japanese or sumthin.  Ah, if dreams could only come true.
    
    JaKe
    

    PIRATES TRADE BONDS!!!!
    
    Not really, but wishful thinking.
    
    Actually, the Pirates did trade pitcher Neal Heaton to the Kansas City
    Royals today for OF Kirk Gibson.
    
    Andy Van Slyke is not even in camp now, he flew back to Pittsburgh
    yesterday to have his back examined to try and determine whether he has
    a ruptured disk or a degenerative disk condition.  There is
    specutlation that he could miss at least a month of the season.  More
    when the news becomes available.
    
    The Pirates announced that if Van Slyke cannot play, they have plans of
    moving Bonds to Center, and playing Gibson in left.
    
    My question.  Doesn't Gibson have gimpy knees and spend much time on
    the DL?????
    
    thanks
    
    JaKe
    

    Yeah Gibson has gimpyu needs and spends time on the DL, more suited
    these days to a DH job in the AL. But he does have a way of getting
    folks to play hard (ref. 1988 Dodgers).
    
    The Crazy Met
    

 One slap upside da haid from Gibson and Bonds just might put together a
 Triple Crown season.  He might also sulk his way into another late-season
 swoon, too.
 
 Bob Hunt

Three Sewers stadium is faux grass correct ?


Metz

    > PIRATES TRADE BONDS!!!!
    
    Don't scare me like that, JaKe.
    
    I predict that Gibson won't make it halfway through the season without
    a major breakdown.  The Pirates still may be able to use his bat off 
    the bench, though.
    
    I may be the last one left, but I'm still a big Barry Bonds fan, and
    even if it's for only one year I'd like to see it be for the Pirates.  
    Peter Gammons wrote this weekend that in spite of the perceived 
    attitude (and unlike Strawberry and Henderson) he's still a popular 
    guy in the clubhouse because no one questions the fact that he 
    plays as hard as anyone else on the team, all out and all the time.
    
    I also came across an interesting garbage-stat in an article a couple
    of weeks ago.  Someone calculated the percentage that baserunners
    successfully advanced to second on balls hit to the outfield last
    season.  Bonds' ability to play the ball and unleash a strike to second 
    is already legendary, and the numbers backed it up.  Amongst regular 
    leftfielders, he was first with a percentage in the mid-teens.  The 
    second highest leftfielder's percentage was in the low thirties, with 
    the league average in the high thirties.
    
    Just a phenomenal all-around talent, with only Griffey Junior
    potentially in his league...
    
    glenn
    

    Oh geez, that's what I need... I have the first 6 picks in a rotisserie
    league (NL) and I'm gonna have to keep the "No Kirk Gibson on my team"
    philosophy in tact...
    

    Don't do it Walt, not for one of the most overrated 'leaders' in modern
    history (IMO).
    
    As for Bonds, Jake, you need to chill. The guy is HoF material, and if
    he's traded, 20 years from now, you'll be moaning about him and how the
    Pirates have yet to replace him.
    
    Bonds is _awesome_ ....

    
    
    Bonds is a GREAT athlete.  He is one of if not THE best baseball
    players in the major leagues right now.
    
    BUT
    
    As soon as the third out is recorded in the ninth inning, he reverts
    back to being the BIGGEST MENTAL MIDGET in baseball at this time.  The
    guy has not ONE OUNCE of brains once he leaves the field.  He is a
    liability in the dugout.  How would you like to have a rookie latch
    onto this guy and decide to be "just like him???"
    
    On the field, I like bonds, but as a person, I think he's a far-ging
    icehole.
    
    JaKe
    

                                                                
    > As soon as the third out is recorded in the ninth inning, he reverts
    > back to being the BIGGEST MENTAL MIDGET in baseball at this time.
    
    Fortunately, when the third out is recorded, the game is over.  The
    rest of the antics are left for the sportswriters' daily feast.
    
    JaKe, you're probably old enough to remember that Clemente was an
    arrogant, overly proud goldbrick who complained after every season
    (except 1966) that he never got the recognition he deserved, right?  
    Somehow the kids filter this stuff right out and it takes we adults 
    years after the player has retired to catch up with them...
    
    glenn
    

    Thanks for beating me to it Glenn. I had thought that Roberto didn't
    become so beloved until 1970 (?) ....
    
    Maybe history is a set of lies agreed upon (emphasis on agreed) ....

    I IDOLIZED Clemente during the '60's and 70's up until he was keelt in
    the crash.  I remember him doing some griping, but most of it was (if
    memory serves me correctly) to do with the Pirates failure to come up
    with huge cash money.  The Bucs DID keep him the highest paid Pirate
    but never coughed up MAJOR sums of green.
    
    Clemente DID make his public appearances, and he played hurt(not saying
    that Bonds doesn't), and he didn't convey a "I really don't want to be
    here" attitude while making those public appearances, which Bonds
    DOES!!
    
    Sure, Clemente did have his downsides, but, he was respected in the
    clubhouse, as well as on the field.  Bonds, thus far, only deserves
    respect for what he does for 9 innings, no further.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    	Jake, there simply is no comparison.  From what I recall about 
    Clemente he didn't have a mean or spiteful bone in his body.  He was
    always concerned about people who were poorer than himself and he was
    always trying to get more attention focused on the Hispanic population
    and their problems.
    
    	As I recall, Clemente was the first Pirate signed to a six figure
    contract and at that time I believe he was only the 6th person in 
    the Majors with a salary in 6 figures.  I could be wrong about the
    exact numbers, but I remember there were only a handful of players 
    making in excess of 100K.  Mays, Aaron, Mantle, Koufax and possibly
    Gibson are ones that come to mind, but during the mid to late 60's,
    100G's was a lot of dough!
    
    	Funny, I don't really remember Clemente ever complaining about his
    pay... I guess all I remember were his constant complaints about his
    body!
    
    	Bonds has a lot of growing up to do and given the situation with
    the big dollars these days, Bonds will never be even half the player or
    man Clemente was!
    
    	'The Great One' will live on forever!
    
    
    								bill..g.
    

I think Clemente was more known for griping about nagging injuries. Of course
those injuries never seemed to affect his play...

Tom

              
    I don't remember Clemente complaining about his pay, either.  I do
    remember him complaining about a lack of respect from the writers come 
    MVP time, though.  Clemente was quite outspoken about the fact that he 
    wasn't given the recognition he deserved because he was a Puerto Rican 
    black man.  And the fact is, he was right.
    
    I wasn't trying to compare Bonds to Clemente as a man.  Clemente died
    in the service of other human beings, the ultimate sacrifice, and not 
    knowing Bonds personally I really don't know what kind of person he is 
    at the core (I don't begrudge him wanting to be paid at the top of his 
    profession, which is where he resides as a player, though).  My point 
    was that until near the end of his career if you believed everything 
    that was said or written about Clemente or took things he himself said 
    out of context without considering where he was coming from, you might 
    not have liked him.  And quite a few people didn't (I can give
    references from the Pittsburgh papers taken from Clemente's biography--
    commentaries saying that he was a spoiled goldbrick, etc.), but 
    eventually they found out what kind of person he truly was.  
    
    Barry Bonds is still a young man.  In ten years, we might know more
    about what kind of person he really is, too, when and if he sheds the
    immaturity.  Until then, I still love watching him play.
    
    glenn
    

    Well said Glenn ...

    bill g. and glenn, good notes.
    
    Now my memory may be clouded but I swear I remember Clemente doing the
    money gripe thang a few times, but I ain't going to argue the point.
    
    Bonds will never be worthy of sniffing Clemente's jock, let alone
    carrying it.  Bonds is  self-centered, conceited spoilt brat, and will
    never grow up whilst in the major leagues, strictly my opinion.
    
    Barry's dad, Bobby was no clubhouse leader and spent every year or so
    getting used to another team cause mentally he was a bozo too.  Whadda
    they say. like father like son????  This case probably will hold true.
    
    JaKe
    

                                                
    After his career was over, Bobby Bonds did acknowledge an alcohol
    problem that caused him many troubles and a premature end to what
    should have been a HOF career.  Bonds, father, indeed didn't kick 
    this problem until after his retirement, but now apparently has his
    life in order as he's a respected batting coach somewhere, I believe.  
    Maybe Bobby's problems had an effect on his son?  Who knows...
    
    glenn
    

    FaKe, from what I hear, Barry is respected in the clubhouse. Fact is,
    the man cheats no one between the white lines and is a professional to
    the core ....

    Rumor patrol:
    
    Supposedly John Smiley has been traded to the Twins for two prospects
    but I haven't been able to confirm this...
    
    Anyone have any info????

 Spud Weirsbeck over in the BASEBALL conference reported this ...
 
  �   Twins just had a BIG trade go down this morning.  They've traded
  �   pitcher Denny Neagle and minor league OF Midre Cummings for Pirate
  �   pitcher John Smiley.
  
 Right in the middle of Rotis draft week.  Betcha lotsa junkies are
 scrambling big time this morning.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Anybody got any info on these guys the Bucs got fer Smiley???
    
    Smiley, after going 20-8(I think) lasted year in the reg. season,
    couldn't pitch his way out of the firsted inning in the
    playoffs(although he did last ~2 innings in his first start, he was
    TATOO'd in the first inning), and this spring he has gotten shelled,
    also.
    
    That, coupled with the big contract he signed, got him a ticket outta
    here, cause Ted Simmons is trying to make this team profitable
    (hahaha).
    
    JaKe
    

 Danny Neagle was 9-4 with a 3.27 ERA at the Twins' AAA club in Portland
 lasted year.  He got a September cuppa coffee and went 0-1 in 3 starts.
 
 I don't have data on the other guy.
 
 Bob Hunt

    From the information provided in BASEBALL, the deal is a sell-out on
    Pittsburgh's part.  The minor leaguers and cash for a 20-game winner,
    albeit not a legitimate, perennial 20-game winner.  With 
    division-winning caliber talent still left over from last year, are
    Pirate fans supposed to feel good about this movement to make
    themselves "profitable"?
    
    glenn
    

    Can we now say that the accursed Mets are now the hands-down (yuck)
    prohibitive favs in the NLEast?
    
    MikeL
    

    Lessee, weren't the Mutts SUPPOSED to be the Favs lasted year, too?? 
    Or wuz that the Cubbies?????
    
    JaKe
    

    > Can we now say that the accursed Mets are now the hands-down (yuck)
    > prohibitive favs in the NLEast?                          
    
    Not necessarily...depends on Sid Fernandez'/Doc Gooden's health, and
    whether the Mets' defense can field a notch better than in recent years.
    
    Favorite perhaps, but not a leadpipe cinch...
    
    
    py                                                         

    I'd still pick Pittsburgh.  Unless they deal Bonds...and even then if
    they deal Bonds for Hunter and Wohler (sp?) the Smiley deal makes
    sense.  Hmmmmm...could this be the set up for the rumored trade with
    Atlanta?
    
    	--dan'l

 Could be indeed, Dan'l.  ESPN is reporting some more hot trade rumors ...

 Apparently, the Barry Bonds-to-Atlanta deal is now heating back up again. 
 The Braves are to send Brian Hunter, Mark Wohlers, and an unnamed minor
 league prospect (Ryan Klesko?) to the Bucs for Bonds, a free-agent after
 this season.   Could be done by Friday.

 This would also make Otis Nixon expendable and the Angels have a welcome
 mat all laid out for him.

 And here's a new one ... The Rangers are talking with the Phillies about
 Ruben Sierra, another free-agent-to-be.   The Phils have offered Wes
 Chamberlain, Jason Grimsley, and Pat Combs for Sierra but the Rangers want
 either Terry Mulholland *or* Tommy Greene included in the deal.

 Last time the Phils got an AL hot shot, Lance Parrish was a total bust but
 Sierra's a different story.  Big difference.

 Bob Hunt

    re .275
    
    Rub it in willya Bob !
    
    Dr Midnight - Who lost Smiley from his title-winning NL rotis team.

    Ruben Sierra in the NL ? Interesting ... but we know how some AL
    players have big problems adjusting to NL pitching. However, Sierra
    could make the Phils' O explosive. Yet, I can't see them losing Greene
    or Mulholland and Combs (who I think will be a big player) and be
    serious contenders in the East ....

    The Bucs gave Bill Landrum his walking papers today.  Miracles never
    cease.  THis guy was another in a long line of one year wonders. 
    Lasted year AND the year before, he couldn't put his cat out after the
    All-Star break.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs won their opener lasted night, beating the Montreal Expos(ed),
    2-0.
    
    Doug Drabek got the win, pitching 8 innings and giving up 5 hits.
    
    JaKe
    

�< Note 92.287 by CELTIK::JACOB "On the trail of Svelt" >


�    Bucs won their opener lasted night, beating the Montreal Expos(ed),
						              ^^^^^^^^^^	
    2-0.
    
	
Pehaps Mets pitcher David Cone should request a trade to Montreal, eh ?
    

    Bucs goto 2-0 with a 4-2 win over the Expos(ed) tuunite.
    
    Zane Smith gets the W, Barry "Mental Midget" Bonds hits a 2-run homer
    and Stan Belinda gets the save.
    
    JaKe
    

    Sheeeeeeeeit
    
    The Bucs longest(and only) winning streak of the season comes to a halt
    as the Expos(ed) pummel Bob Walk and crush the Bucs, sumthin like 8-2.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs beat the Cubs tonite, 7-2.
    
    Bucs are now 6-2 and have a game and a half lead over the Expos(ed).
    
    Sheez, only 154 games til the Bucs meat the best of the West in the
    playoffs.
    
    JaKe
    

>    Sheez, only 154 games til the Bucs meat the best of the West in the
>    playoffs.
    
    Sheez, only 154 games til Barry Bonds goes into his third consecutive
    post-season slump.
    
    Hal Tied Hard (Bonds didn't)
    
    	--dan'l

    Dem Bucs, if they could play the Phillies all year, along with the
    Expos(ed), would be about 140-22 by the time the playoffs rolled
    around.
    
    They beat Montreal today, 11-1, with the help of a nine run ninth
    inning, featuring Kirk Gibson's grand slam, and Barry Bonds' 6th homer
    in 12 games(it was a three run shot).
    
    The Bucs are now 10-2, and have won 7 in a row.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs streak reaches 8, Bonds hits 7th dinger of the year, Bucs are now
    11-2.  Van Slyke finally starting to slam the ball around too.
    
    JaKe
    

    	You still hopes he breaks his leg JaKe?  8^)
    
    				/Don

    re: .296
    
    Much as I hate defending him, Jake only wanted him to break a leg AFTER
    the 1992 season. Jake, ya owe me one :-)
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    TCM,
    
    I'd rather owe ya one than cheat ya out of it.
    
    I still want him to totally blow out a knee, maybe during the
    off-season, after signing on with some other team, he'll blow it out
    carrying all his money up the steps at his house.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs win 9th in a row at the expense of the Expos(ed) tonite, 2-0.
    Kirk Gibson led the game off with a homer and then Steve Buechele drove
    in Andy Van Slyke in the ninth to complete the scoring.
    
    Doug Drabek pitched his 13th career shutout, and got the complete game.
      
    The Bucs are now 12-2 and are on their way to a 139-23 season.  (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

    	If the Pirates ever let Leyland go somebody will give him over
    a million dollars.
    
    				/Don

    Bucs left their defnse at the hotel today as they commit 5 errors,
    leading to 3 unearned runs, and lose the the Expos(ed), 6-3.
    
    Zane Smith took the loss and is now 3-1.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    The Pirates are playing .778 ball going into Cincinnati tonight. 
    Wonder how "intelligent" Barry Bonds feels about this quote after the
    Bucs dealt Smiley and released Landrum:
    
    "If you're making a move to save money, say so.  Don't insult our
    intelligence by saying it's for the best of the team."
    
    Guess what, Barry.  It was for the good of the team.  Smiley's ERA is
    6.86, much closer to his career stats, and Landrum has been shelled in
    Montreal.  The Pirates lead the NL in pitching.
    
    	--dan'l

    Dan'l, that sounds more like a chance to bash Barry than anything else.
    Face it, he just echoed what a lot of people were saying.
    
    Moreover, the calender says April, not October. Let's wait awhile hmm ?

    Hey, I'll take any chance I can to bash Barry Bonds.  Even if he leads
    the Pirates to the world series (avoiding his annual NLCS choke job),
    I'll dislike the big cry baby.
    
    There he was all last year trying to get us to believe he wasn't crying
    about money (ESPN interview in which he stated that money was not a
    factor, he just wanted respect) but as soon as his own club makes money
    moves to perhaps sign the overgrown infant, he cries to the media that
    the club isn't being upfront with the players.  Not only is he a big
    mouthed cry baby, he's a hypocrite.
    
    	--dan'l

    --dan'l
    
    I agree with ya whole-heartedly about Bonds.
    
    The Bucs are reportedly close to signing Doug Drabek to a 4 year $20
    million plus contract.  Now that would be a good move on their part.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs are in Cincy tonite.  Their lead ove rthe Mutts right now is 4-1/2
    games.
    
    Tonite Drabek goes against Browning.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs losted to the Reds tonite, 3-2.  Browning gets the win and is 3-1,
    Drabek took the loss and is now 3-2.
    
    The New Yuck Mutts won and are now 3-1/2 back.
    
    JaKe
    

    Careful or the Pitt baseball team may develop the nickname of Bastards
    in this notesfile.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Bucs broke out of their big slump(2 game losing streak) to beat the
    Reds tonite.  Zane Smith got the "W", pitching a 3 hitter and Steve
    Buechele had a home run for the Bucs.
    
    The Mutts won again so the Bucs lead is still 3-1/2.
    
    JaKe
    

    Jake,
    
    I figured you couldn't be getting your team nicknames wrong so I made a
    concerted effort to find a team with the nickname Mutts that plays
    in either the NL or AL of MLB and I couldn't seem to find it. Are you
    trying to pull a Sid Finch on us? If you are it is a bit after April
    1st for that don't you think??
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Pirates signed ex-Red Sox/Expos/Rangers pitcher Oil Can Boyd to a 
    triple-A contract.
    
    
    py

>   Pirates signed ex-Red Sox/Expos/Rangers pitcher Oil Can Boyd to a 
>   triple-A contract.
    
That'll lock up the division for the Bucs.     8^)

>    Pirates signed ex-Red Sox/Expos/Rangers pitcher Oil Can Boyd to a 
>    triple-A contract.
    
    That means he's back on Lake Erie (in Buffalo), one of his favorite
    oceans.
    
    Mods, would it be possible to change the title of this note to remove
    the "1991" or should we begin a 1992 note?
    
    	--dan'l
    

Dan'l,

The mods or the author can changed the title.  I'll do it if I get a chance.


'Saw

    Bucs get pummeled tonite.
    
    Mutts win, now 2 back.
    
    JaKe
    

    As Walt reported in the NL note, Kirk Gibson was released today by the
    Pirates.
    
    In tonite's game, the Bucs were trailing the Reds 5-1 entering the
    bottom of the sixth when the bats came alive and after the smoke had
    cleared, the 6th ended with the Bucs leading, 12-5, which, by the way,
    was also the final score.  Dennis Lamp got the victory for the Bucs.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    Bucs beat the Reds tonite, 5-2.  Paul Miller got his first MAjor League
    win in the game.
    
    The Bucs are now 18-7 and lead the Mutts by 3 games.
    
    JaKe
    
    

    New Yawk loses tonite, Bucs are in 15th inning, tied 3-3.
    
    Bucs will be either up by 3 or 4, depending on the outcome of this
    marathon, but I'm going home.
    
    JaKe
    

    Pirates won at 12:45 AM when Don Slaught hit a one-out triple and Jose
    Lind, who had been 0-6 in the game, hit a ball over Otis Nixon's head
    (who I'm sure was playing in in that situation).  Pirates stranded a
    total of 21 base runners in the game.
    
    Went to a bar after water polo practice lasted night and the Braves and
    Pirates game was on TBS.  Pirates were losing 2-0 when we left and I
    had pretty much written them off since it seemed they were stranding a
    lot of runners and young Steve Avery was pitcing for Atlanta.
    
    Took a friend home at about 12:30 and on my way back decided to see
    what talk radio was saying on KDKA (Pittsburgh).  Much to my surprise,
    the game was still on, top of the 16th inning.  
    

    
    	Can anyone post the Buc's August schedule of home dates?  If I'm
    going to make a trip home, I'd also like to take in a game if possible.
    
    
    								bill..g.
    

    8/1-2	St Louis
    8/4-5	New York
    8/6-9	at St Louis
    8/10-12	at New York
    8/14-17	Atlanta
    8/18-20	San Diego
    8/21-23	at San Fran
    8/24-26	at LA
    8/27-30	at SD
    9/1-3	San Fran
    
    John

    
    
    	Thanks John.
    

    Bill, I'm planning a trip myself mid to late August, most likely over a
    weekend.  Maybe we can hook up, including JaKe too.
    
    	--dan'l

    RE-.1  Sounds good to me.
    
    Nixon was indeed playing very shallow when Lind lifted the ball over
    his haid and Slaught coulda crawled home.  I had made it home and
    watched the lasted inning on the tube.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs lost lasted night to the Braves and Tom Glavine, who they NEVER
    seem to be able to beat, 4-2.
    
    No problemo though cause the New Yuck Mutts lost also to the Reds, so
    the lead stays at 4 games, but that don't mean squat right now, but
    wait till September when the Bucs are up by 14.
    
    
    
    
    JaKe
    

    In two consecutive nights, Barry Bonds has failed to deliver with the
    bases loaded.  In the 16-inning game Wednesday, he had bases loaded
    with two outs; Bonds grounded out.  Lasted night he had bases loaded
    with one out and took three called strikes.
    
    I only point this out because on ESPN Monday, Bonds said, "That's the
    way I play.  If you dare challenge me in my territory, I'll beat you."
    
    Time to give Cecil Espy a little more PT.  He is a switch hitter
    batting .464 in pinch situations.  He's got to be better defensively in
    the outfield than Gary Redus.
    
    	--dan'l

    
    	dan'l, if I plan a trip home this august, I'll probably opt for
    the first week of August.  My Dad's birthday is during that first 
    week and the old 'county fair' is in town that week, but I haven't
    made up my mind yet.
    
    	So, if you're around at that time, I don't have a problem hooking
    up at the park.  This year though, I'm taking my son...it would be
    his first 'big league' game.
    
    	As august gets closer, we'll have to see where we are at.
    
    
    							bill..g.
    

    I'm probably playing in a water polo tournament in Philly the first
    weekend in August, so I doubt I'll be going to the St. Louis series
    over the 1st and 2nd.  Looks like that only leaves me with the Braves
    series (could be a good one) 14-16.
    
    Can't your dad move his birthday?
    
    	--dan'l

    
    re: .331
    
>    Can't your dad move his birthday?
    
    	Dan'l, I'm sure that he would move his birthday, but it's the 
    County Fair that would be the problem...  Just love those county 
    fairs!!
    
    	Like I said, I'm not sure if let alone when I'd be going home.
    Usually we shoot for the first and second weeks of August, but this
    year I know it will only be for a week to 10 days.  So, as August
    nears, I'll see..
    
    	Then of course there is always 'Rain Day' on July 29th.. I always
    like to be home then too!!  Not to mention the Jacktown fair (longest
    continuous running fair in the country)!  Ain't seen nothin' till you
    seen the Jacktown fair!!
    
    
    								bill
    

    Anyone catch ESPN's baseball tonight lasted night?
    
    If not, let me relate one of their top stories to you.
    
    If you saw baseball highlights Wednesday, you saw Jim Leyland go
    ballistic on an ump (can't remember his name).  Another ump was holding
    and shoving the target ump back to keep him off of Leyland.  This all
    stems from Tuesday night when this ump was behind the plate calling
    strikes on the Pirate batters that were over a foot outside.  These
    were not marginal calls.  The camera doesn't lie.  If pitchers were to
    get calls like that every night, we'd be seeing 40 no-hitters per week.
    
    Anyway, Wednesday night, this ump was at third and the Bucs were
    getting on him from the dugout.  Everyone thought the Leyland
    confrontation was strange because the Pirates were up 10-2 at that
    point.  Then they heard what was said.  The ump yelled back to the
    Pirate players, "If you thought those weren't strikes last night, wait
    until next time you get me."  Leyland yelled back that that was
    cheating, to which the ump made some references to the Pirates recent
    October performances.  That's when Leyland blew.
    
    Sad thing is, according to ESPN, the league can do nothing because of
    the Bill White (?) overruling.  (Someone want to refresh my memory
    here?)
    
    Pirates won Wednesday and lasted night and were able to flush out a
    skunk.  I just hope MLB doesn't have a clothes pin on its nose.
    
    	--dan'l

    Pirates got swept by the Padres this weekend.  Their lead in the NL
    East is 1� over the Cards who have been hot.
    
    Pirates continue to have problems with Mark Hirschbeck (the sad subject
    in -.1) and his umpiring crew.  Friday night with runners on first and
    second and one out in the first inning, a pitch to Lloyd McClendon
    eluded Benito Santiago.  Instead of chasing the ball, Santiago got
    another ball from Charlie Williams (the ump who held Hirschbeck back
    when he was unjustly threatening Leyland the other night).  Santiago
    threw the ball back to the pitcher as if the pitch had been fouled off.
    
    No contact was ever made with the ball, but the umps sent the advanced
    runners back to first and second.  The umps met and ruled the pitch was
    fouled off.  I'm sure Hirschbeck was a deciding factor there.  He
    should be fired.
    
    	--dan'l

    
    
    	Hey dan'l, Leyland and the Pirates just need to keep their mouths
    shut and play ball.  If the umps are screwing up, sooner or later they
    will screw up big time.  In the mean time, Leyland should just keep
    his yap shut and play the game.  Arguing with the umps/refs never 
    amount to anything anyway.  Leyland would do better to concentrate
    that same effort into managing the Bucs out of a 4 game losing streak.
    
    
    							bill..g.
    

    Ah, but Goose, the umpiring is sooo screwed up right now, that some of
    teh worst umps act as if they have tenure - and I've no evidence to
    prove otherwise.

    
    
    	Doc, I'm not saying that there aren't bad umps or that it's getting
    out of hand in the baseball ranks.  I'd just like to see Leyland and
    the rest of the crew get on with business.  Frankly, I'd like to see
    the league ban all this arguing crap anyway.  Never does any good and
    just slows the game down.  
    
    	Just like in hoops.  You question a call (correctable error) and
    it is found to be un-correctable, your team would be charged with an
    out.  If it's the 3rd out, the side is retired.  It wouldn't get rid
    of all the arguing and complaining, but a coach might think twice 
    before poping off at the ump.
    
    	I would just like to see all the baiting and badgering stop. 
    Heaven knows I've had my share and I'm just tired of the whole
    confrontation thing.  Just play the game and stop all the crying
    because a call didn't go your way!
    
    								bill..g.
    

    
    Hey, arguing with the umpire is as old as the game itself.  When the
    manager has a legitimate beef and isn't just giving it to the ump to
    cover his own butt, I say have at it.  It's good entertainment and
    everyone, including the umpires (especially these days), need to be
    kept honest from time to time.
    
    They say there's no accountability with the umpires, and technically
    that may be true, but I can't think of too many punishments worse than
    the media hue and cry that's been foisted on John Hirshbeck in the last
    week.  And he deserves it.  The guy let a personal grudge get in the
    way of his objectivity (the most important thing an umpire possesses,
    even more important than his umpiring talent), and he's been held up to
    ridicule in baseball circles on a national scale.  We're living in the
    video age, and umpires can't get away with that stuff like they might
    once have...
    
    glenn
    

    Pirates lost to the Giants late lasted night 7-2 (boy am I tired this
    morning after a night of hockey and then baseball until 1:30).  Game
    was over when Doug Drabek made a mistake to the natural, Will Clark. 
    What a sweet poke that guy has.  Even though it was against my team, I
    just melted when he swung at that pitch.  Beautiful.
    
    Pirates have only a � game lead on the hot Cardinals and are in
    jeopardy of falling out of first place for the first time since 1990.
    
    	--dan'l

    re: .340
    
    Small quibble. The Pirates have been out of first place since 1990.
    They did not lead the division from start to finish in 1991. What you
    are thinking of is that the Pirates have been in first place at the end
    of each month since 1990.
    
    Go Bruins (at least in this round)
    The Crazy Met
    

    Bucs lose again to the Giants, 3-1 today at Candlestick.  Bucs lead is
    now 1/2 game and could evaporate tonite if the Cards win, leaving them
    tired with the Bucs.
    
    Bucs were getting everything during the first month or so of the
    season, but now, if the hitting is there, the pitching is out to lunch,
    and visa versa, plus the defense is having lapses.
    
    Time for the Bucs g=to get their collective heads out of their asses
    and start playing as a team again.
    
    JaKe
    

    Eh Mike, does Phoenix have a baseball team???
    
    JaKe
    

    This slump was inevitable.  Bucs will bounce back.  In fact, it's a
    good thing it is happening now while they are playing out of the
    division.
    
    In fact, I expect Montreal to make a run anytime now.  Pirates could be
    in fourth place soon, but not for long.
    
    	--dan'l

>    Eh Mike, does Phoenix have a baseball team???

    
    >>      <<< Note 92.346 by FRETZ::HEISER "just say no to wankers" >>>
    >>                           -< LOTS of them >-
    
    I mean a REAL team.
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

    Da Bucs losted another one lasted night.  (8^(*
    
    They've lost something like 11 of their last 12.  The starting pitchers
    have only 2 victories in the last 22 games, and the bullpen is just
    non-existant.
    
    HELP!!!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    

    And JaKe's especially ticked off because he cain't BLAM Bonds ;^)

 And it was an especially sweet loss for the Buccos, too.   Bottom of the
 10th, Leyland ordered Dennis Lamp to walk Kurt Stillwell so he could pitch
 to Darrin Jackson with the force on at all three bases.
 
 Lamp went to 3-0 on Jackson and then grooved a 'hit-me-please' fastball. 
 Darrin put him out of his misery and sent moi into a healthy round of
 late-night applause for my rotis team.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Well the Buccos did it again.
    
    
    L O S T !!!!!!!!
    
    They blew leads of 6-4 and 7-6, finding a way to lose it in the ninth
    inning, 8-7.
    
    Lessee, ~2 weeks ago, they was 23-10 and cooking.  Now, they're 24-21
    and appear ready to go out with the trash.  I only have one hope for
    the Bucs, that they'll
    
    
    GET THEIR HAIDS OUT OF THEIR ASSES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Stan Belinda, who has grooved many a pitch lately, took the loss.  I
    didn't hear how the Padres scored in the ninth, but in the top of the
    ninth, Bonds doubled(he also had a HR and 3 RBI in the game), went to
    third on McClendon's hit, and scored on the next base hit.  Bucs were
    up 7-6 after the top of the ninth, and if they had a freakin' closer,
    they'd be flying back to Pgh. tonite with a "W" instead of a "L".
    
    Where is the team that played the first 33 games of the
    season???????????????
    
    JaKe
    

    Remember the preceding note folks.
    
    Carbon copy of JaKe at the Other Place in Boyslton regarding the
    'Goons. Watch the Bucs make the World Series!
    
    mucho 8^)'s 
    MikeL
    
    

    
    Trivial stat:
    
    The standings at the end of May 1992 have the Cardinals leading the
    Pirates by 1/2 game. This is the first time since October 1989 that the
    Pirates have not led the NL East at the end of a month.
    
    Go Hawks (do you believe in miracles :-( )
    The Crazy Met
    

    Despite the protestations of my wife, the family stopped at Three
    Rivers yesterday on the drive home from Dayton OH to catch the Pirates
    versus Giants in another one of those "Turn Back the Clock" games. 
    The "New York" Giants looked familiar in their old greys, but it was 
    very strange seeing the Pirates dressed in white uniforms with dark 
    blue hats and red lettering with blue trim.  The design was supposedly 
    from 1939, and the shirts looked something like the nice ones the 
    Minnesota Twins used to wear in the late 1970s before they traded them 
    in for one of baseball's uglier contemporary costumes.  Pretty sharp, 
    but I honestly never recall seeing any pictures of Pittsburgh with a 
    script "Pirates" like this across the chest.  Either they didn't for 
    very long or the Pirates management was pulling yet another fast one
    (Leyland sounded less than thrilled with the whole affair in the
    pre-game, probably reflecting the general mood of the team the way
    things have gone lately).
    
    Anyway, it was totally forgettable game and yet another lackluster 
    performance by the Bucs, who blew an early 3-0 lead with the aid of 
    three late unearned runs to lose 5-3.  We missed the Buechele home run 
    and just caught Jeff King's, but it was downhill from there.  The same
    two players made the costly errors, with King's being an *easy*
    three-hop groundball on artificial turf that he just flat forgot on his
    way to first.  You're not going to win many games with the kind of
    effort the Bucs put in yesterday...
    
    Oh well, at least it was nice coming through the Fort Pitt tunnel and
    looking down on the The Point and the downtown area again.  Had been a 
    while for me, and I'd forgotten how pretty it is...
    
    glenn
    

    Where'd ya sit, Glenn????
    
    Me, Mrs. JaKe, and the two older little JaKes was in section 460 fer
    the game, yesterday(free tickets is wunderful, ain't they??).
    
    Started out as a good game, but as you said, twas very forgettable by
    the time the ninth ended.
    
    JaKe
    

    I've seen an old picture of Ralph Kiner with the script Pittsburgh (or
    was it Pirates) on the shirt. The navy blue/red combo is real common in
    baseball, even the Giants used to have those colors. At one point the
    only teams in baseball with colors OTHER than that were the Yankees (no
    red) Tigers (a dab of orange) Cubs, Dodgers & Philly A's (lighter shade
    of blue). 
    
    I saw this in a book on the uniforms down through the years, with every
    team, every year. It's interesting to see the changes in style and
    colors. The 70s was probably the most radical. It is always hard to tell 
    what colors they wore in the old days, since all we have to go on is black
    and white photos.
    
    Tom

               
    > Where'd ya sit, Glenn????
    > 
    > Me, Mrs. JaKe, and the two older little JaKes was in section 460 fer
    > the game, yesterday(free tickets is wunderful, ain't they??).
    
    We bought the cheap general admission seats but sat in the lower left
    field stands instead of upstairs (the rain wasn't bad until the game
    ended and we had to walk back to the car).  I don't think those are 
    general admission seats but from a past life I remembered the ushers 
    won't really hassle you out there.  One guy near home plate where we
    came in offered to take us all down front for 10 bucks, but just for 
    a fun day out with the kids (no front row heckling action required) I 
    wasn't going for it.  It's no wonder the Pirates are going broke with 
    people buying general admission seats and bribing corrupt ushers to 
    fill the boxes, though.  Betcha can't do that at Pens' games... ;-)
    
    Next time I'm out there hopefully it'll be for longer and I can look
    you up and hit those cheap box seats, JaKe, but with your reduced
    stature it sounds like I might have walked right past you yesterday 
    and not even recognized you...
    
    It was a Pittsburgh sort of a week for us even out in Dayton.  Loads
    of relatives and friends in from the area for my brother's wedding and 
    almost all sports nuts, with everyone in the wedding party wearing
    Bucs' and Pens' caps for everything but the ceremony itself (and I
    think even that might have been a close call...)
    
    Tom, I just now looked at the program from the game and there are
    pictures of manager Pie Traynor and others from 1939 so the Pirates
    did indeed wear these uniforms.  I think I've seen some of the same 
    pictures of Ralph Kiner with the script "Pittsburgh", but maybe 
    because the pictures are all black and white I'd always assumed the 
    Pirates had gone to black as their primary color by then.  These 
    were a little different, though, with large script "Pirates" underlined
    with a trailer off the "s".  Definitely threw me for a loop having no
    black or gold, to the point where if you're not paying attention to the
    game subconsciously you forget which team is which.
    
    glenn
    

    
    
    	According to my Pirate Centennial Yearbook, the Black and
    Gold/Yellow did not appear until 1948!
    
    	Here's the breakdown for all the Pirate faithful...you know, just
    information.
    
    	1887	Blue hat, solid white shirt and pants, blue socks.
    	1895	Blue hat, white shirt with "Pittsburgh" in block letters,
    	        blue socks and white pants with a blue zig-zag stripe.
    	1909	White hat with blue bill, white shirt with blue collar,
    		blue socks with red stripe.  Shirt had PBC on sleeve.
    	1927	Blue cap with red 'P'. White shirt and pants with blue P on
    	        sleeve, blue socks with white stripe.
    	1934	Same hat as 1927, same shirt only with large red P on
    		breast.  Socks were red, white and blue.
    	1936	Same hat, "Pirates" appears on shirts in red with blue
    		border.  Socks were red and blue.
    	1939	Same as '36 only 'Pirates' appears in script writing on 
    		shirts.
    	1941	Hat was blue with red bill with 'P'.  Pirate emblem appears
    		on breast of shirt.  
    	1944	Back to 'Pirates' on shirt in block letters.
    	1950	Colors change.  Black hat with gold 'P' and 'Pirates' in 
    		block letters across shirt in Black with gold highlight.
    	1960	Sleevless shirt with black undershirt(first worn in '57).  
    		Same Pirate writing across shirt.  Socks are black with gold 
    		stripes.
    
    	Uniforms thoughout this time varied also to home and away.  Some
    years, the home jerseys would say "Pirates" and the away jerseys would
    say "Pittsburgh".  Other years they would not.
    
    
    								bill..g.
    

Better watch out, there Bill, you're givin' John Hendry a run for his 
money 8^)

'Saw

    Fine with me.  I like challenges.
    
    Ninj

    
    re: -2
    
    	Nope, John is all alone at the top.  It just so happens that I
    have a few Pittsburgh articles hanging around in my office cube, and 
    when some stuff comes up about Pittsburgh teams, I can usually find
    something of interest in there.  It just so happened that I had the
    Centennial Yearbook and it had a history of the uniforms in it.  
    
    	I'll leave the rest to Mr. Hendry.
    
    
    
    								bill..g.
    

           <<< Note 92.359 by CAMONE::WAY "Two Bullets and a Lady" >>>
    
    Who are LaBradford Smith, Rex Chapman and Jan Stephenson?

    re .362
    
    The Love children of Baskerville Holmes?
    

Walt, you slay me.  8^)


It was from LASTed week's Northern Exposure, when the real Joel was 
swapped with his brother Jules, and running the card-game-scam.  He had
two aces and a queen, and kept calling it "two bullets and a lady".

Course, Jules was a faux-brother, since it was all a dream anyway....

The two guys at the end were from Topeka, which is a way's from PITTSBURGH,
just like this reply....


'Saw


PS  Wanna get a new p-name from the new Delbert McClinton song, but can't
    remember the line exactly -- i think it's something like

	"She's like rolling a 7, every time I roll the dice"

    Bucs beat the Dodgers tonite, 1-0.  Tomlin(6-3) gets the win, Mason got
    the save.
    
    Bring on those Muckin' Fets this week.  The Bucs are going to give them
    an a$$ kicking like they shoulda had years ago!!!
    
    JaKe
    

    Should be a good series between PITT and the Mets. 
    
    At the moment, Cards and Bucs are tied for first with 27-23 records.
    Mets are .5 games out witha 27-24 record. Mets have the day off.
    If Cards and PITT lose today all 3 are tied for first with 27-24
    records. Cards game is 12:35 EDT, PITT plays at 3 EDT.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Bring on the MUCKING FETS!!!!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    

    Pitt pitt pitt
    
    The Crazy Met
    

What in the wide wide world of sports was going on in Pittsburgh
yesterday?

I'm looking at Sporstcenter and here's Jeff King milking a cow!

TTom

    Bucs won round 1 against the Mets 7-2 last night. Lind got a 2 run
    single with 2 outs after Doc had worked from a 1st and 3rd, noone out
    situation. Murray just missed a grand slam HR that would have tied it
    5-5 in the 8th.
    
    Real class act by those Pirate fans throwing a golf ball at Bonilla!!
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Been done before TCM,
    Was with me Pop at a Bosox gamw in the early/mid 60's, sittin behind
    the Red Sox dugout when a golf ball came whizzing by us aimed at
    Dr. Strangeglove, Dick Stuart. In Stuartesh fashion, the ball went
    harmlessly right through his laigs. Boorish but kinda funny.
    
    MikeL
    
    Any more Met fans out there that still thinks Doc comes near Clemens?
    

    > Any more Met fans out there that still thinks Doc comes near Clemens?
    
    not this year
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    re: .371-2
    
    fwiw if I needed someone to pitch a big game (pkayoff/WS) I wouldn't
    pick either Clemens or Doc.
    
    The Crazy met
    

    How sweet.  A New York fan lecturing the rest of us on what is and is
    not "classless."  Too funny.  Glass houses there, Crazy Met.
    
    When Bonilla got up to bat, the Three Rivers organist played "Take The
    Money And Run."
    
    	--dan'l

    re: .374
    
    You missed the point. All we NY fans hear is how boorish NY fans can be
    etc, etc. I was simply pointing out that NO team has a monoply on
    boorish and obnoxious fans. In other words, glass houses but the other
    way around.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    Bonilla's defensive skills what they are, he couldn't have been hit by
    the golf ball if it came straight at him.
    
    Damned ball cost me $3.25 at Herman's before the game.  (8^)*
    
    At least it wasn't an Everready battery like Parker got thrown at him
    when he took the Bucs money and proceeded to go into a 3 year
    cocaine-induced slump.
    
    JaKe
    

    Some of us see Bonilla nearly every game, for better or worse :-).
    So far this year a couple of real nice catches, no errors, and no
    blatant mental errors when throwing the ball to the infield. He sure as
    heck ain't in Bond's or van Slyke's class of defense, but few players
    are.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    re-.1
    
    Give him a chance, he'll surely distapoint ya when the games on the
    line, probably inm the very near future.
    
    JaKe
    

>    He sure as
>    heck ain't in Bond's or van Slyke's class of defense, but few players
>    are.
 
    Glad to hear you say that about Bonilla, TCM, because I just heard the
    following quote from Bonds on ESPN SportsCenter regarding the
    Pittsburgh fans booing Bonilla:
    
    "It's a black thing.  They would never do this to a white player.  They
    would never do it to VanSlyke...Mr. Pittsburgh."  
    
    There were a few other digs at white people and Andy in general that I
    couldn't memorize as they rolled by, but there were three screens full
    of negative comments about the fans and VanSlyke.  This solidifies it
    for me.  Trade the jerk now, pennant or not.  He doesn't deserve a
    city the class of Pittsburgh.  Let's hope he ends up in Cleveland.
    
    	--dan'l
    

         
    Dan'l, you don't believe that for a large segment of Pittsburgh's
    rooting populace Bonds doesn't speak the truth?  I was there during the
    drug trial years and just from casual conversations with many Pirate
    fans, I believe he is.  It's unfortunate that Bonds uses an active
    teammate in Van Slyke to make his point, but for his part I've heard
    Van Slyke state that he understands Bonds' point, knows his outspoken
    personality and doesn't have any problems with it...
    
    The Pittsburghers' treatment of Bonilla was totally unreasonable and 
    I have a hard time understanding what their problem is with the guy.
    Unlike Bonds, Bonilla generally kept his mouth shut, played hard and
    played hurt close to a 162 games a year.  Bobby Bonilla isn't the 
    first free agent to leave Pittsburgh and he won't be the last.  If and
    when Doug Drabek leaves will he be showered with abuse and have a golf
    ball thrown at him upon his return?  Let's face it, the fan behavior 
    was shameful and I for one think Bonds' comments in the face of that
    abuse have a lot of merit...
    
    glenn
    

    The fans were booing because Bonilla turned down 26 million and left
    their Pirates.  For Bonds to suggest that the booing is racially
    motivated is shallow.  Bonilla did his own form of outspoken
    pompousness by refusing to talk contract after turning down the initial
    competitive offer.  
    
    The Pirates did everything they could to sign Bonilla.  He turned his
    nose at the team and the fans.  The fans feel betrayed and boo him.  If
    VanSlyke had acted the same way and he were now with New York or
    anybody else, you can bet he would be showered with the same abuse. 
    Instead, VanSlyke professionally and quietly signed an offer behind
    closed doors and announced it the next day.  Sure he's Mr. Pittsburgh. 
    He chose to stay with the team that allowed him to be the star he is.
    Loyalty is applauded.
    
    On ESPN yesterday, Dick Schapp said that booing Bonilla is just a
    warmup for the MVP (most volatile Pittsburgher) because next year they
    get to boo Barry Bonds...even if he goes to the American League,
    Pittsurghers will drive to Cleveland to boo him.  And deservedly so.  
    
    	--dan'l (who's considering rooting for the Cards until Bonds is
    	         out of Pittsburgh)

    
    > Bonilla did his own form of outspoken
    > pompousness by refusing to talk contract after turning down the initial
    > competitive offer.
    
    This seems to me to be a contradiction or at the very least a gross
    exaggeration of what Bonilla did.  Ballplayers refuse to negotiate
    during the season all the time.  It's a source of leverage, and for
    those who are concerned that a ballplayer should have his mind on the
    game instead of his paycheck it's probably a good idea all the way
    around.  Kirby Puckett and Cal Ripken are currently taking exactly the
    same tack, and I don't hear anyone screaming about any such
    pompousness.  And no matter how much Pittsburgh fans want to revise
    history, unlike with the situations with Puckett and Ripken the Pirates 
    eventually came around to offering Bonilla what he originally demanded, 
    but by then his value had risen with the market and with another 100 R, 
    100 RBI season.  And after the delay in the Pirates coming to market
    value Bonilla's somehow obligated to take less money out of a sense of 
    "fairness" or even more ridiculously, "loyalty"?  The Pirates negotiated 
    tough and hard from a business perspective, and Bonilla did the same.  
    Loyalty is a two-way street.  
    
    > Instead, VanSlyke professionally and quietly signed an offer behind
    > closed doors and announced it the next day.  Sure he's Mr. Pittsburgh. 
      
    Van Slyke was offered and accepted a deal at $4+ million/year that was 
    well above his market value, based on price for performance (I'll reserve 
    judgment on his value after this season, but this was at the time).  They 
    didn't play hard ball with him at all, and Bonilla and Bonds have noticed
    this.  Before this season, Van Slyke hadn't hit with Bonilla and had been
    prone to injuries, missing 25+ games to injury on average over the last
    three years, in contrast to Bonilla, a virtual ironman.  Van Slyke hasn't 
    performed particularly well in the postseason, either, if that's an issue.
    If the Pirates had given Bonilla everything he'd wanted at the drop of a 
    hat as with Van Slyke I'm sure Bonilla would have handled it all very 
    quietly too.  As it was, he wasn't exactly a loudmouth about it.   
    
    > On ESPN yesterday, Dick Schapp said that booing Bonilla is just a
    > warmup for the MVP (most volatile Pittsburgher) because next year they
    > get to boo Barry Bonds...even if he goes to the American League,
    > Pittsurghers will drive to Cleveland to boo him.  And deservedly so.  
    
    Why can't Pirate fans adopt the wise and gracious attitude of their
    classy manager, Jim Leyland, he of the record $1 million/year longterm
    contract himself?  Leyland understands the business aspects to the game, 
    and even though he's had his run-ins with Bonds, he's on record that no
    one plays any harder than Bonds between the lines, and certainly no one
    plays better.  No one in baseball is as strong in all of the disciplines 
    of the game (hitting, hitting with power, fielding, throwing, and 
    running) as Bonds.  *No one*.  It's a shame that Pirate fans concentrate
    on Bonds' words, some of which really aren't so outrageous after all,
    to the exclusion of appreciating his talents and *effort*.  His manager 
    and his teammates do; why can't Pirates' fans?
    
    Bonds and his outspokenness may be a special case, but I repeat: what
    kind of a reception will Doug Drabek receive if and when he returns to
    Pittsburgh?  And if and when both Bonilla and Bonds are playing for
    someone else because the Pirates played hardball with them, citing
    unreasonable economic pressures, but both Van Slyke and Drabek end up
    with market or even above-market longterm contracts with the Pirates, 
    what does that tell you about Pirate management's priorities?  Not 
    winning, at least...
    
    glenn
      
                

�    He chose to stay with the team that allowed him to be the star he is.
    
    Are you saying that VanSlyke would be less of a player if he was with
    another team?
    
�    	--dan'l (who's considering rooting for the Cards until Bonds is
�    	         out of Pittsburgh)
    
    Isn't it curious how often times fans wish to get rid of the best
    player(s) on the ball club just because of a perceived attitude problem
    that obviously is not affecting their performance?  This view isn't
    unique to Pittsburgh.  Take a look at the cases of Jody Reed, Bob
    Stanley, and Jim Rice for the Red Sox.

Hi,

I'm a seldom seen noter who grew up in Pittsburgh (now living in Maryland).

Some points:

  - Pittsburgh fans like loyalty. (Who doesn't?).

  - The Fans don't care about race -- I'm not sure about the Pirate owners...  

  - Clemente and Stargell are the two most popular players in recent history.
	(of course they came before free agency)

  - Bottom line - Bonilla wanted to play in New York.  That was always clear.

  - The fans sense that Bonds wants to play elsewhere (Calif.?) as well.

  - Anyone remember what happened to a fellow named Cliff Stoudt on his
    first return to Pittsburgh?  He was pummelled with snowballs.

  - Public Relations is where it's at.  Van Slyke is the best I've ever seen.

  - But Bonds is a much better player.  It's too bad he can't:

	    1) accept someone else being more popular, although inferior, or
	    2) play the P.R. game.

  - I might turn off a game with Van Slyke batting, NEVER with Bonds batting.
    It's the opposite if they're being interviewed.

  - During the playoffs, Van Slyke said things like "I sucked".  Bonds said "".

  - What would Bonds' excuse be if he was being overshadowed by Stargell?
 
Now, as for this,

�	--dan'l (who's considering rooting for the Cards until Bonds is
�	         out of Pittsburgh)

    Blasphemy.  I think we need to review your Pittsburgh Fan credentials.

Hoping Bonds stays (no way) and has a good playoffs (unlikely),

Warren

    Ok, dan'l, replace "Van Slyke" with "Bream" and tell me the difference?
    Bream got standing ovations when he left to go to Atlanta.  I think
    Bonds went overboard, but it's difficult to understand how Bream gets
    standing ovations even when he hits a HR against them and Bonilla gets
    pelted with stuff looking at it from an outsider.  Van Slyke and Bonilla
    handled their negotiations differently, but I think Bream's case is a
    better argument to Bonds' claim.
    

>    Ok, dan'l, replace "Van Slyke" with "Bream" and tell me the difference?
>    Bream got standing ovations when he left to go to Atlanta. 

    Before Bream left for Atlanta, he made a public statement that he loved
    Pittsburgh and wanted to stay in his "hometown" to play, but the
    Pirates organization was not cooperating in the contract talks (one of
    the main reasons being so they could have extra money to sign Bonilla
    who left anyway).  Bream didn't make statements like Bonds and he didn't
    take the money and run like Bonilla.  He endeared himself to Pittsburgh
    before he left.  

    In addition, keep in mind that Bream got that standing O when the
    Pirates were ahead 6-0 in the top of the 9th.  It's easy to be gracious
    when you're winning.

    As far as my Pirates loyalties are concerned, yes I'll still root for
    them, but the Cards have always been #2 on my list of favorite baseball
    teams.  Bonds raises my temper with his spoiled-boy rantings.  My
    favorite team would be much more enjoyable for me if he were not on it. 

    I don't care if they were mired in the middle of the league, I wouldn't
    have to hear the jerk demean his teammates, my hometown, and my friends
    and neighbors.  Get where I'm coming from?  When Bonds makes statements
    like he does, he insults me personally.  Why shouldn't I be angry and
    hurt?

    	--dan'l

>    Ok, dan'l, replace "Van Slyke" with "Bream" and tell me the difference?
>    Bream got standing ovations when he left to go to Atlanta. 

�    Before Bream left for Atlanta, he made a public statement that he loved
�    Pittsburgh and wanted to stay in his "hometown" to play, but the
�    Pirates organization was not cooperating in the contract talks (one of
�    the main reasons being so they could have extra money to sign Bonilla
�    who left anyway).  Bream didn't make statements like Bonds and he didn't
�    take the money and run like Bonilla.  He endeared himself to Pittsburgh
�    before he left.  

    Didn't Bobby say he wanted to be able to play in "his hometown" so his
    dad could see him play?  What's wrong with having roots to mom and dad
    vs. where you work?  Bobby I thought kept his mouth shut, didn't he
    (during the season).  How do you know Bream didn't take the money and
    run?  Because he said so?  Doesn't sound like that big a difference to
    me.  And I think playing hard for the team is more important than
    kissing butt to the press/fans when you leave town.  I'd be pissed if
    a player whined about not getting their money and wanting to stay "at
    home" because if he really wanted to stay there, he would have.  Shouldn't 
    they be attacking Bonds, if throwing things at players was considered 
    civilized to begin with?  Again, I'm an outsider to all this, I don't
    know all the things happening in Pittsburgh.
    
    
    
    �In addition, keep in mind that Bream got that standing O when the
    �Pirates were ahead 6-0 in the top of the 9th.  It's easy to be gracious
    �when you're winning.

    Don't see that being a big part of it.  Boos are boos, no matter where
    you are in the game.  Bonilla started the game, should he wait for a
    6-0 game?
    

    
    
    Rumour has that Bonds has stated Ryne Sandburg's contract
    isn't enough for him.
    
    AFTTF -  Adding fuel to the fire.
    
    \pjb

    
    > I don't care if they were mired in the middle of the league, I wouldn't
    > have to hear the jerk demean his teammates, my hometown, and my friends
    > and neighbors.  Get where I'm coming from?  When Bonds makes statements
    > like he does, he insults me personally.  Why shouldn't I be angry and
    > hurt?
    
    Maybe you should, and maybe should look at his point of view and say
    that maybe there's something to that too.  You may even have some
    common ground, and maybe some of what Bonds is experiencing is subtle or
    even unintentional (when I was in Pittsburgh, with the frustration
    level high based on the poor play of the team and the drug scandal, I 
    heard stuff about the racial makeup of the Pirates that was neither, but 
    then again that's not unique to Pittsburgh) but he sees it and responds 
    to it nonetheless.  Maybe from his background he doesn't, as has been 
    suggested, understand the value of playing the part of dedicated company 
    man (this means more to some fans than others).  Depending on his frame 
    of mind, I *have* heard Bonds say in the past that he'd like to play in 
    Pittsburgh (I know he likes and respects Leyland), but that's all long
    gone by now...
    
    As for Bonilla, I'll never understand that one.  He always seemed to me
    to be a hard-working, nose-to-the-grindstone player, and a likable guy
    to boot, especially for a New Yorker (just kidding!).  The only thing I
    can see with Bonilla is that he took the money and didn't apologize for
    doing so, but that's the case with 9 out of 10 players these days (and
    no slight as far as I'm concerned).
    
    glenn
    

    OK, seems like we're going around in circles here.  Let me just state
    that I don't like Barry Bonds.  Everyone else is welcome to admire
    Barry Bonds for whatever reason you want to, speaking his mind, being
    the best player in the game, being a black role model, going after all
    the money he can.
    
    I'll stick with admiring Willie Stargell as I have done since I was
    about five years old.  Thanks.
    
    	--dan'l

>    As for Bonilla, I'll never understand that one...The only thing I
>    can see with Bonilla is that he took the money and didn't apologize for
>    doing so, 
    
    Glenn, you are forgetting one very important factor as to why the
    Pirate fans were unmerciful this past week...Bonilla went to the one
    team more than any other that Pittsburgh loves to hate...the team that,
    BTW, lost 3 of 4 to the Pirates.  8-)
    
    	--dan'l  
    

    FWIW,                                                                
    
    Sid Bream did indeed want to stay in Pittsburgh and play for the Bucs.
    The Bucs had offered him a contract at a higher pay, per year, than the
    one he eventually signed with the Braves.
    
    The reason he went, was that he wanted a longer contract(2 or 3 years)
    and the Pirates only wanted to sign him for one.  
    
    Bream had his agent call the Bucs with Atlanta's offer BEFORE he signed
    with the Braves, and offered to play for even LESS than what the Braves
    gave him, if the Bucs would give him a longer contract than one year.
    
    The Bucs turned him down.
    
    This demonstration of how he WANTED to stay in Pittsburgh, almost at
    any cost(short of contract length) is what FURTHER endeared him to the
    Pittsburgh fans.
    
    Bonilla left with a kiss-my-ass attitude.  It was truly a case of "take
    the money and run".  Now I don't fault a guy fer getting all the money
    he can, hell, I'd do the same if I was in sports, but the guy was as
    loyal to the Bucs as a rotten grapefruit, telling them when
    negotiations started that there was no way they'd come up with signing
    sort of cash fer him.
    
    Bonds thinks he's going to get $$$ to go with his mega-sized ego.  This
    year will not, IMHO, be a year of the multiple record $$$ signings,
    seeing as you could make an all-star team with the players eligible for
    free agency this year, coupled with the lack of a big $$$ TV contract,
    and the owners will be stingy with the cash.
    
    Bonds should feel lucky if anybody offers him Sandberg style money.
    
    If he's thinks he's so damned great, let him negotiate with some
    Japanese team and go play there.
    
    JaKe
    
    
    

    Dan'l, I hear you; we all have our heroes.  I was/am a big fan of
    Stargell, too, but I also think it was easier to be a "hero" in his
    day, or at least it seems that way from the perspective of youth. 
    Stargell wasn't perfect, but I don't expect any athlete to be.  I've 
    already pointed out Stargell's poor postseason performance (something
    Bonds has been hammered for regularly in Pittsburgh) before 1979, and 
    his was among the names that surfaced in the Pittsburgh drug scandal.
    Considering the time and the circumstances, to me Stargell's image as
    a classy *ballplayer* wasn't tarnished.  With Bonds it may be his 
    mouth that goes overboard and gets him into trouble (I don't recall 
    Stargell engaging in any negativism-- with the possible exception of
    when Pirate management let him go as a coach, too-- but that was his 
    style), but I can similarly live with that and appreciate Bonds for 
    what he's paid to do, the sum of his existence for my knowledge and 
    benefit, which is to play ball... 
    
    Stargell versus Bonds as human beings and their endeavors outside
    baseball is a topic that I don't have much information on, but is
    outside of the scope of what I really care to know.  Who am I to 
    judge based on what I personally know about either below the surface?
    
    glenn
    

    Sounds like Bonds deserves the debris more than Bonilla...
    

    Bucs lost to the Philth-adelphia Phillies lasted night, 7-0.
    
    Fortunaately, the Mets cooperated by losing and the Cards dropped a
    pair to the Cubbies.
    
    GO BUCS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs beat the Phillies
    
    Mucking Fets won, lead stAYS AT 3 GAMES FOR THE BUCCOS.
    
    JaKe
    

    Fittsburgh Pucks also won 5-3.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Bucs beat the Philthy-delphia Phillies tonite, 2-1 in 12 innings.
    
    The Muckin' Fets and the Cards losted tonite, so the Bucs lead is 4
    games over both.
    
    GO BUCS!!!
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs beat the Muckin' Fets 2nite. Lead over the Fets is now 5 games,
    and will be either 4 or 5 games over the Cards, depending on what they
    do tonite.
    
    Tomlin gets the win, he's now 8-3, atterson gets the save, his third.
    
    JaKe
    

    Tomlin is now 7-0 against the Mets, at least he didn't opitch a
    complete game again :-(
    
    Mets lost Sat night 3-2. A 9 inning game that took almost 4 hours. The
    Fittsburgh Pucks left lots of men on base. Mets had a 2-1 lead on a
    clutch hit by HoJo, but middle relief blew it again.
    
    Gooden vs Drabek today.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Think the Muckin' Fets will be glad to see the Bucs leave town?????
    
    Bucs are now, what, 6-1 versus the Fets???
    
    
    Luv it
    
    GO BUCS!!!!!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    

    The Bucs have flat-out owned the New York Not-Yets the last three 
    seasons, no?  Gotta love it...
    
    Any of you guys find yourselves way down deep summoning even the 
    slightest bit of appreciation for Bonds when he went deep to knot
    things up late in Saturday night's game?  Or would it have been 
    better to lose than to further stroke Bar's giant ego?  ;-) 
    
    glenn
    

    Note the "vs. NL East" column in today's standings.
    
    Pirates are 26-6 within the division.
    
    Other than the Cubs at one game over .500, no other NL East team has a
    winning record within the division.
    
    
    py

>>  Pirates are 26-6 within the division.

Too bad they'd have to play against the West to get to the W.S.

Anybody know what the record for best winning percentage within a division is?
26-6 works out to .813!

The Bucs don't look to dominating, though, they just find a way to win.

I was watching the end of the game on WOR on sunday when it looked like
Barry Bonds was shot or something.  He took a swing and just crumbled.
Turns out he just pulled a muscle -- must have been a big muscle.

Warren

    	Guess the Mets are going to need another trip to the vault to
    be a contender.
    
    				/Don

    re: .406
    
    Guess by your definition the Red SOx are also out of it.
    
    Lousy weekend. Bah humbug. We'll see if the Fittsburgh Pucks (tm)
    will stay this hot for a while.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    > Guess by your definition the Red SOx are also out of it.
    
    That comes pretty close to summing it up.  Except the Mets are actually
    in better shape having to chase only one team that's a ways out in
    front, and having 12 games left with the Pirates to the Red Sox' 5 with
    the Jays (thanks to the screwed-up AL balanced schedule...)
    
    glenn
    

    Alright you NL Feasters,
    Give us a shortened analysis on the chances the others ( read Cards,
    Expos) have in keeping up with the Mets and Bucs. And cain the Mets
    catch the Bucs in the dog days of August?
    
    deen to wonk,
    MikeL
    

    Depends on the Cards pitching.  I don't think the Expos have the depth
    after Martinez and Hill.  The Cards have a shot to hang in..
    

    Mets chances depends on 2 critical things.
    
    1) HoJo has truly got to start hitting. He did a bit this weekend. but
    it still is not enough.
    
    2) Getting Saberhagen back and having him pitch like he was pitching
    the 4-5 games before he got injured.
    
    #2 is more critical than #1.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Bucs lose to the Phillies tonite, but the Cards lost to the Cubbies so
    the lead remains at 5 games.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Bucs win in 12 innings.  Cards and Cubs lost, Bucs lead is now 6 games.
    
    Muckin' Fets won too, but they're still, what, 7 back???
    
    GO BUCS!!!!!!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs won lasted night, Cards-Cubs rained out.  Lead now 6-1/2 games.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs lose to the Expos(ed)onite, 4-0.
    
    Don't know what the Cards or Cubs did, but at the worts, the Bucs will
    end the day up 5 games.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs lose second straight to the Expos(ed), 2-1 tonite.
    
    Drabek took the loss, although he pitched a 5 hjitter and only gave up
    2 runs, the Bucs anemic bats couldn't get going.
    
    See y'all in a week
    
    JaKe
    

    Fittsburgh Pucks lose to St. Louis 4-1. Mets win 3-2. Pitt leads
    by 6 games.
    
    Barry Bonds was placed on the DL.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Bucs get second straight shut-out over St. Louis today, 1-0.
    Zane Smith pitched a 5 hitter.  
    
    Lasted night, the Bucs beat the Cards, with Doug Drabek pitching a
    3-hit shutout.
    
    The Mucking Fets are playing the Cubbies today, and lasted i heard, the
    Cubs were losing, 2-0.
    
    JaKe
    

    Whatta crummy weekend for baseball in Pittsburgh.
    
    The Sinsinati Reds come into town with their tails between their legs
    from a severe horse whipping in Houscum and proceed to shut off the
    Pirate bats and sweep the four game series.
    
    Bucs had fair pitching, but couldn't get ANY hitting when it was
    needed.
    
    The Bucs have only scored something like 11 runs in their lasted 8
    games.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs win second straight over Houscum Assho...er...Astros, tonite.
    
    Lasted night Zane SMith pitched a great game and Orlando Merced hit a
    420 ft homer for the win, don't have any details on tonites game, 'cept
    for the fact they won, 5-3.
    
    JaKe
    

  JaKe,

	Thanks fer puttin in all these updates on the Buc's games and what is
  going on with the Pirate's organization and the fans. There are a few
  of us long time Pirate fans who appreciate gettin a little more info than
  our papers provide here in remote parts of the country.  
    
	Beat em Bucs,

		Keith

    Last night's Bucs game featured the first unassisted double play by an
    outfielder in 18 years.
    
    Joe

    
    Van Slyke is a ham.

>    Last night's Bucs game featured the first unassisted double play by an
>    outfielder in 18 years.
    
  OK, I give up, how did an outfielder perform an unassisted double play ?

  Did he catch a fly ball and then tag a runner out ?

	Keith

    
    
         No he caught a short flyball and the runner on first thought there
    was already 2 down so he was all the way to third. AVS ran (jogged) all
    the way to first to get him out.
    
    BTW for some reason he also pushed Redus the Buck 1st baseman out of
    the way. 
    
       The centerfielder on my Semi Fast softball team has done this same
    thing twice this year. W/O the push though.

    The paper says VanSlyke "bounced the ball basketball-style between
    second and first and playfilly fought off first baseman Gary Redus to
    make the force out."
    
    I didn't see it.  What does bouncing the ball basketball style mean?
    
    	--dan'l

>    ... What does bouncing the ball basketball style mean?

You work a deal with corporate sponsors, get named to the Dream Team,
violate all spirit of the Olympics and drub any and all opponents.

HTH, etc.

TTom

    nah, just means that he was playing on phony turf
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Nope, he walked a long way, just like NBA players do on their way to
    the hoop.
    
    :-)
    
    Doc

    He bounced it off da turf.  If I were Houston, Van Slyke woulda been
    on his butt the nexted time up...
    

    Bucs took a 7-3 lead into the 4th lasted night and then the wheels fell
    off and they ended up losing, 11-8.  Team needs some relief help,
    badly.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs blew ANOTHER lead lasted night, they had lead 3-0 and ended up
    losing 4-3 in extra innings(not sure how many) to the Houscum A$$h_les.
    
    Bucs lead is now ~3 games.
    
    JaKe
    

    Thats 3 blown leads in a row, plus that game in Chicago on Sunday.
    
    Keep up the good work.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    >    Thats 3 blown leads in a row, plus that game in Chicago on Sunday.
    
    What will they offer for one Jeff Rearend, the all-time save leader?
    
    Dickstah
    

    Well the Buccos finally won lasted night in OT.
    
    Hey Craze, Think the Mutts and the RedFlops can set up another
    exhibition match just like they did in '86. This year they can
    feature the two most overrated teams.  
    
    8^),
    MikeL
    

    What happened last night?  I went to bed after I heard the Astros had
    once again come back to take the game into extra innings.  The score
    was tied 7-7 in the 10th.
    
    If I'm Bonds and VanSlyke, I gotta be pretty sick of carrying the team
    only to have the relief pitchers blow the games.  I think you'll be
    seeing some starting lineup players being traded real soon for some
    bull pen studs.
    
    	--dan'l

From pa.dec.com!decwrl!looking!clarinews Thu Jul 23 10:36:30 EDT 1992
Article 16207 of clari.sports.baseball:
Path: e2big.mko.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!looking!clarinews
>From: [email protected] (UPI)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.baseball
Subject: Pirates 10, Astros 7, 13 inn.
Keywords: baseball, men's professional, broadcast
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 23:02:47 PDT
Location: pennsylvania, texas
ACategory: sports
Slugword: bbn-astros
Priority: regular
Format: game story
ANPA: Wc: 394; Id: z0649; Sel: xxsbp; Adate: 7-23-150aed; Ver: 6/0
Approved: [email protected]
Codes: ysbpgxx., bsbpgxx., &sbpgpa., &sbpgtx.

	HOUSTON (UPI) -- Orlando Merced stroked an RBI single and Jose Lind a
two-run double in the 13th inning Wednesday night to give the Pittsburgh
Pirates a 10-7 win over the Houston Astros.
	With one out in the 13th, Barry Bonds drew a walk from Willie Blair,
2-5, and stole second. Merced then blooped a 3-2 pitch into center field
to score Bonds with the go-ahead run.
	The Pirates loaded the bases on a single by Mike LaValliere and walk
to pinch-hitter Cecil Espy before Lind lined a pitch over the head of
Gerald Young in right field, which bounced over the wall for a ground-
rule double.
	Stan Belinda, 4-2, notched the win with two innings of scoreless
relief. Bob Patterson retired the side in order in the bottom of the
13th to earn his sixth save.
	The teams banged out a combined 32 hits while battling for almost
five hours. The Pirates outhit the Astros, 18-14. The game featured
three ties and four lead changes.
	Pittsburgh ended a three-game losing streak.
	The Pirates jumped to a 2-0 lead in the first on an RBI double by Jay
Bell and run-scoring single by Jeff King.
	Houston tagged starter Randy Tomlin for five runs on seven
consecutive hits with two outs in the fourth inning. After Tomlin got
Casey Candaele and Ken Caminiti on ground balls, Jeff Bagwell rocketed a
double off the center-field wall to start the rally.
	Pete Incaviglia singled in Bagwell for the Astros' first run. Before
the onslaught ended, Scott Servais and Gerald Young added RBI singles
and Pete Harnisch a two-run double. The seven straight hits fell one
short of the Astros' club record, set in 1966 against Cincinnati.
	The Pirates tied the score 5-5 in the fifth on an RBI triple by Andy
Van Slyke and a two-run homer by Bonds, his 18th home run of the year.
	Pittsburgh took a 6-5 lead in the seventh. Alex Cole led off with a
single, stole second and scored on Van Slyke's bloop single to left
center that Young misplayed.
	The Astros scored twice in the bottom of the seventh to regain the
lead. Bagwell walked and scored on Incaviglia's double to left center.
Incaviglia advanced to third on a fielder's choice and scored on Young's
bloop single.
	The Pirates tied it 7-7 with a run in the eighth. Lind led off with a
double and scored on Gary Varsho's pinch-hit single up the middle.


    

    Bucs lost to the Cubbies lasted night and they're losing right now  to
    those same Cubbies.
    
    Going into today's game the Bucs lead has dwinled to 1 game over the
    Montreal Expos(ed).
    
    Sheez, time to light a fire under this teams a$$.
    
    JaKe
    

    Score is 6-0 in the fifth.  VanSlyke and Bell have just thrown major
    temper tantrums in the dugout, Andy throwing helmets and bell chucking
    armfuls of bats down the tunnel.
    
    Dawson made an awsome catch for a gimpy man with the bases loaded and
    two outs to keep the Bucs from scoring in the fourth.
    
    Hey TCM, remember what I said in E-mail about the Expos last week? 
    Three more days left in July.
    
    	--dan'l

    Is anyone gonna take charge in this division. The Cubs and Cards
    are only 5 1/2 out. Cain the lowly Phils, although 10 games out,
    make a charge?  As long as the Mutts stay leashed in the middle.
    
    MikeL
    
    I'm bettin' on the Bucs staggerin' to win the thang.
    

    dan'l
    
    You beat me to the punch I was about to reply that you sent me
    email that said the Expos would be in 1st before the month of July was
    over. I of course, in my infinite wisdom, pooh-poohed that absurd
    notion. Glad it wasn;t in notes or after tonight I might have had to
    post in the crow note.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Bucs lose, 10-1.  Sure does sip indiscreetly!!!    (8^(*
    
    JaKe
    

    Jake,
    
    Thanks for the good news. Nice to see the Fittsburgh Pucks having this
    kind of road trip.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

	Well, since the Pirates are sipping wind, and since I've temporarily
resurrected Clemente from the grave, I thought I'd keep it up with a few
articles I have here at work.

	There are 3 articles.
  
	Reprinted without permission from the _Three Rivers Stadium Souvenir
Book_ by Charley Feeney,  Copyright 1970


	The Complete Clemente 


	There are ballplayers and there are ballplayers.  There are superstars
and, in rare cases, super, super stars.  
	Some stars stir fans with their home runs. Others with their base hits
and speed.
	Few players in baseball history have excited baseball fans in as many
ways as Roberto Clemente, who has been known to win ball games with his arm,
legs, glove, bat and sometime just by being present in right field for the
Pittsburgh Pirates.
	Before Clemente finishes his brilliant Pirate career, which began in
1955, he will rank among the top 10 men in numerous offensive departments.
	A post is waiting for the most exciting Pirate in history in 
Cooperstown, N.Y., where Baseball's Hall of Fame is located.
	But there is still plenty of baseball left in Roberto Clemente who has
proven his is capable of achieving fantastic heights on a baseball diamond.
	He generated excitement at grand old Forbes Field for close to 15 and
one-half baseball seasons and he will continue his exciting play at the Three
Rivers Stadium.
	"There will be a day when I will stop playing baseball," Roberto 
Clemente says, "but I will never stop loving baseball.  It has done so much
for me and my family and in some ways for my people in Puerto Rico.  It 
showed them that baseball is open to everybody."
	Fans who have watched Clemente through the years will never forget
him.
	Neither will opposing players and managers.
	Casey Stengel, who managed the Yankees against the Pirates in the 1960
World Series, was in awe of Clemente.
	"When I saw our scouting reports of the Pirates, I couldn't believe
what was said about Clemente.  They had him rated No. 1 in everything.  I 
accused my scouts of watching superman movies instead of the Pirates.  If I
missed something out of baseball, it was not getting a chance to see Clemente
play every day."
	Red Schoendienst, who managed the Cardinals to pennants in 1967 and
'68, calls Clemente "close to the most perfect ballplayer of all time."
	"Clemente can go hitless, not catch a fly ball or throw a runner out,
and still help his club win a ball game," Schoendienst says.
	"Many times a base runner won't attempt to take an extra base on a 
single because of respect for Clemente's arm.  Sometimes the runner has an 
80-20 chance to make it, be he won't risk it.  Clemente has earned that
respect and a little thing like that can help the Pirates win a close game."
	Schoendienst was on the Cardinal bench one night in Pittsburgh when
Clemente made on of the greatest throws ever seen of a ball field...and 
ironically he was charged with an error on the play.
	With Orlando Cepeda on first base, Tim McCarver singled to right.
Clemente charged the ball which skidded through his legs and rolled to the 
wall at the 375-foot marker.  Clemente retrieved, and threw from the base of
the wall an on-the-fly strike to Catcher Jerry May nailing the startled 
Cepeda by three feet.  
	Leo Ward, Card's traveling secretary, who has watched baseball for 
close to 55 years, said afterwards:
	"If I didn't see that throw with my own eyes, I wouldn't have believed.
I'm still not sure that it happened.  Clemente threw a baseball almost 400
feet on the line.  Unbelievable!"
	Roberto Clemente undoubtedly will go down as the greatest baseball
draft in history.  The Pirates selected him off the Montreal roster (Brooklyn
Dodger farm) after the 1954 season.  He batted .257 at Montreal and batted
.255 as a Pirate rookie in 1955.  Two years later, Clemente batted .253.  Those
are the only two campaigns where Clemente showed any mediocrity with the bat.
He went on to win four National League batting titles and batted over .300
for eight successive seasons, beginning in 1960 when he helped lead the Pirates
to the world championship.
	Pittsburgh General Manager Joe Brown rewarded Clemente's greatness
with a $100,000 contract-a first in Pirate history-after the 1966 season when
Clemente was named the most valuable player in the National League.
	Most often the MVP award goes to members of pennant winning teams.
But Clemente's achievements in 1966 overshadowed the great work of such 
performers as Sandy Koufax of the pennant-winning Los Angeles Dodgers and
Willie Mays and Willie McCovey, both of the second-place San Francisco Giants.
The Pirates finished a close-up third in 1966.  It was a year when Pirate 
manager Harry Walker asked Clemente to sacrifice some part of his batting 
average and go for the long ball.
	Clemente responded as only Clemente can.
	He belted a personal high 29 homeruns and drove in 119 runs.  His
average was a most respectable .317.
	In 1967, Clemente did it all.  He slugged 23 homers, batted in 110
runs and finished with a resounding .357 average and his fourth bat crown.
	He also set a major league record in 1967 by leading the National
League in outfield assists for the fifth time.
	Clemente is a rare two-time Pittsburgh Dapper Dan award winner.  He
won it following the 1961 season when he batted .351 and again after the 1966
campaign.
	Joe Brown, Pirates' GM, has seen most of Clemente's baseball
accomplishments.
	"I rate Clemente with the Williams, Mantles, Mays, Aarons...all the
great ones,"  Brown says, "He has done more to excite fans in Pittsburgh than
any player I have ever known."
	Through the years, Clemente has had more than his share of injuries.
He played the entire 1968 season with a damaged right shoulder and managed
to hit .291.
	Injuries slowed him in 1969.  He batted only .242 in the first 27
games.  In the last 111 games, he hit at a .373 clip to finish at .345 at 
age 35.
	Perhaps in another baseball era, Clemente would have added another 
plus to his numerous achievements.
	He is an excellent base-runner, with good speed.
	"Under the right circumstances," Joe Brown says, "Clemente could have
been one of the great base-stealers in history.  But he batted mostly in the
third spot in the batting order and his chances to steal bases were reduced
because of the home-run potential of the man who batted behind him.  And a
runner on base ahead of him."
	Clemente is a daring base-runner.  he has taken an extra base numerous
times during his career, setting up victories.
	Three thousand base-hits are not beyond Roberto Clemente's reach.  He
has a chance...a good chance.
	Before he is finished playing, he will rate among the top 10 in the
National League in hits, runs scored, total bases, and other bat departments.
	Clemente has made a reservation for himself in baseball's Hall of
Fame.
	But the Hall of Fame will have to wait.
	Roberto Clemente is still wearing a Pittsburgh Pirate uniform.  He
remains the most electrifying, most exciting ball player to wear a Pittsburgh
uniform.
	He will go down as one of the great right-handed batters in history.
He is the complete ballplayer, highly-keyed, intense, determined.
	Any fan who watched Roberto Clemente play just one baseball game will
never forget him.  
	The great ones are never forgotten.

	Part 2

	Reprinted without permission from the _1974 All-Star Game Program_
by Dick Young, a writer for the New York Daily News.

	Clemente...So Dedicated, So Dominating

	Pittsburgh, Oct. 13, 1971---The best damn ballplayer in the World
Series, maybe in the whole world, is Roberto Clemente, and as far as I'm
concerned they can give him the automobile right now.
	Maybe some guys hit the ball farther, and some throw it harder, and
one or two run faster, although I doubt that, but nobody puts it all together
like Roberto.
	"He's showing the others how to play the game, isn't he?" said Lee
MacPhail at Press Hq., where lots of people, in lots of little groups, were
talking up the Roberto Clemente for-the-automobile movement.
	
	Roberto Gives Dignity to Word Hustler

	They were talking not only of how well Clemente plays the game, but how
hard he play it.  Mainly how hard.  In this day of the prima-donna athlete,
the guy who isn't in the mood to run out a ground ball, or chase a fly, Roberto
Clemente give dignity to the word hustler.
	The true test of the baseball hustler is what he does hen his team
is losing.  In the firs tow games, when the Orioles were beating the brains
out of the Pirates, you would hear baseball people saying, "How about that
Clemente!" and there was a professional admiration which those in the game like
to believe is their exclusive property.
	"Greatest throw I ever saw by an outfielder," said Any Etchebarren
after Game 2.  He meant the play by Roberto Clemente in the middle of the game.
The strangest part was that the throw didn't get anybody; didn't mean a thing.
It came in the midst of a six-run Baltimore inning, at a time when a player
on the losing team might be expected to start going through the motions.
	Clemente raced to the right line, caught Frank Robinson's fly on his
glove side, did a complete spinning turn and fired a strike to third, where 
the runner was sliding in on a tag-up advance.  The runner was Merv Rettenmund,
a quickie.
	"You'd have had him if it weren't Rettenmund," a praising newsman said
afterward.
	"Eef I have my good arm thee ball get there a leetle quicker than he
gets there," said Clemente.

	Playing With Sore Shoulder Since July

	Roberto has been playing with a sore shoulder since late July. It is
one of the inside jokes of baseball that Roberto Clemente always is playing
with some ache or pain, and the more he hurts the more dangerous he becomes.
Somebody once said that three years after he is dead, Roberto will lead the 
National League in hitting.
	"They laugh at me, but I heet thee ball," says Roberto, pointing to
his teammates.
	There is very little humor in Roberto Clemente, and none at all where
baseball is involved.  It is his life, his escape.  It has given the little
boy from Carolina, Puerto Rico, with the running nose and the kicked-out knee
in his pants, a chance to become rich, to live in a large and elegant home
he has had built in Rio Piedras, and you do not laugh at such things.
	"When we have a meeting een thee clubhouse, when Harry Walker ees thee
manager," says Roberto, "thee writers say that Clemente he ees taking the team
away from Walker.  Thee press crucify me, but they do not know what ees all
about.  I tell thee players, either you play baseball, or you don't play
baseball.  Eet ees not too much that you geev one hundred percent.  That ees
thee on'y theeng that make me mad, when a player don't ron."
	In Game 3, Roberto Clemente hit a ground ball to the right side first
time up.  It was stamped DP.  The Orioles got one.  In the seventh, Clemente
led off with a bouncer back to the box.  Mike Cuellar knocked it down, picked
it up, was aghast to see the batter streaking down the line hurried his throw,
high, and Clemente was safe.  The next batter walked on four pitches, the next
batter hit the ball out of the park.  Mike Cuellar's composure was shattered.
The game was over.
	"It all began with Clemente hustling to first," said Cardinal star
Joe Torre, who is here and who probably will be MVP.  "He knows only one way
to play this game."
	He knows, too, that he must take care of himself, or he will squander
the gifts he hs been given, as do so many.  "I weel go home after the Worl
Seeries," he says, "an' rest my shoul'er for a leetle while, then I weel
exercise to make eet strong, and next year I come back, an' hope eet weel be
thee way eet should be.  I have eet always eeen my head t take good care of 
my body.  Some players go home an' start drikin' and eatin' peanuts and come
to camp weeth beeg bellies."
	Roberto Clemente is a 37-year-old roadrunner.  He has spent 18 summers
of those years playing baseball for the Pittsburgh Pirates.  He has batted
over .300 thirteen times, and for the last three seasons, in his decrepitude,
he has hit .345....352...341.
	But everyone has numbers.  Don't mind the numbers.  Just watch how
Roberto Clemente runs 90 feet the next time he hits the ball back to the
pitcher and ask yourself if you work at your job that way.  Everytime I see
Roberto Clemente play ball, I think of the times I've heard about how "they"
dog it, and I want to vomit.

	Part III

	Reprinted without permission from the 1987 _Pirates Centennial
Yearbook_ by John Mehno.

	Roberto Clemente

	Finishing last in the National League in 1954 was one of the best
things that ever happened to the Pittsburgh Pirates.  A 53-101 record put the
Pirates 11 games behind the seventh-place Chicago Cubs and assured them of first
choice in the minor league draft.
	On November 22, 1954, that option and $4,000 brought Roberto Clemente
to Pittsburgh from the roster of the International League's Montreal Royals.
It was barely a ripple in the day's sports news but after 3,000 hits, 12 gold
gloves, three divisional titles, and two World Championships, who can dispute
the importance of that transaction in the Pirates' first 100 years?
	The Pirates were not alone in projecting Clemente's brilliance.  In
fact, though, everyone in baseball knew the talent-rich Brooklyn Dodgers were
trying to hide Clemente on their Triple-A roster.  Clemente was signed by
Brooklyn in 1953 for a $10,000 bonus.  A starting outfield of Jackie Robinson,
Duke Snider and Carl Furillo, plus an unwritten racial quota, kept Clemente
in Montreal.  Any team that signed a player for more than $4,000 was obligated
to either keep the player in the major league or risk losing him in the minor
league draft.
	The alternative was for the Dodgers to try and hide Clemente.  His 
talent made that impossible, despite the Dodgers' laughable efforts.  He was
once lifted for a pinch hitter with the bases loaded in the first inning.  He
hit two triples in one game and then found himself benched the following night.
	Clemente, just 18 and struggling with a dual language barrier in 
Quebec, was baffled and the Dodgers chose not to explain the situation to him.
Clemente finally approached Al Campanis, the Dodger executive who signed him.
	"I want to go home," Clemente said.  "I know I can play better than
these guys but I'm not being used."
	"Do you trust me?" Campanis said.  Clemente said yes.  "Then believe
me, everything will be all right."
	The Dodgers knew they only had a minimal chance of making the charade
work.  Other teams had been aware of Clemente as an amateur in Puerto Rico.
Besides that, everyone was smart enough to keep an eye on the always-productive
Dodger farm system.
	"I couldn't take my eyes off him," said Clyde Sukeforth, the Pirate
scout assigned to observe Montreal.  With that statement, Sukeforth echoed
the words Campanis uttered at a tryout camp in Puerto Rico a year earlier.
	Sukeforth had dinner with Montreal manager Max Macon and made no 
secret of his mission.
	"You might as well play him."  Sukeforth said.  "He's better than 
anyone we have now.  We are going to finish last and we are going to draft
him number one."
	Even though Clemente sat out Montreal's final 25 games, the Pirates
chose him at the major league meeting in New York.  It wasn't a difficult
decision.
	In Pittsburgh the outfield competition was less formidable and Clemente
quickly worked his way into the starting lineup.  He got his first major league
hit, and infield single against Brooklyn's Johnny Podres.  His last regular
season hit was his 3,000th, a double to the gap in left-center against Jon
Matlack of the New York Mets on September 30, 1972.  In between, Clemente had
a Hall of Fame career memorable for both substance and style.
	There was intensity in his eyes as he concentrated on a pitch.  There
was the unorthodox grace of the corkscrew batting stance as he uncoiled and
lashed line drives.  There was the calculated nonchalance basket catch and
the underhanded flip of the ball back to the infield when no runners were on
base.
	There was the chiseled physique, 5-11, 180 pounds.  Despite the well-
chronicled aches and pains, it was perhaps the perfect baseball player's body,
driven by an uncommon inner fury.  There was a .317 career batting average,
four batting titles, 14 All-Star games, the 1966 MVP award and a prominent 
place in virtually every Pirate offensive category.
	There was also attributes not reliably measured by statistics-like the
power of Clemente's throwing arm.  Records of outfield assists don't reflect
how his reputation kept a runner from even daring an extra base.  But ask 
someone who was there the time Clemente threw out St. Louis runners at the
plate in consecutive innings or the times he'd throw behind a runner making 
a wide turn at first base.
	He was the prototype complete player, something the nation came to know
when he made the 1971 World Series his personal showcase.  He used those seven
games to catch up on whatever recognition eluded him for the first 17 years
of his career.  Fiercely proud of his heritage, he used the forum his Series
fame brought him to improve the image of Latin American players.
	Clemente's social conscience put him aboard a small plane overloaded
with relief supplies for earthquake-ravaged Nicaragua on New Year's Eve 1972.
The plane went down in the Atlantic Ocean shortly after takeoff.  Pittsburgh
and Puerto Rico began a new year mourning a hero.
	The Hall of Fame voting was conducted with unprecedented swiftness
and the cruel reality of his absence was confronted by his family, teammates
and fans.  Baseball has developed stars since but few, if any, have come close
to merging excellence with elegance as Clemente did.
	In an interview conducted shortly after the 1972 season ended, 
Clemente said, "I am convinced that God wanted me to be a baseball player.  I
was born to play baseball."
	Anyone who ever saw Roberto Clemente in action would surely agree.

    Pirates lead Cubs 1-0 in the 2nd on a Bonds HR.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

  Until 1971 when he was near the end of his career, Clemente never got the 
  publicity that Mickey Mantle or Willie Mays got. Maybe it was because he 
  played in a smaller city or maybe it was because he could barely speak 
  English. But I always thought he was the best baseball player during those 
  years.

  That's a really incredible story in the last reply about Montreal having 
  him sit out the final 25 games to try to hide him. He almost gave up and
  went back to PR. It's a good thing the Pirate scouts were doing their 
  job and not listening to the papers.

  I was just thinking about making comparisons between Bonds and Clemente.
  Bonds is a better power/HR hitter. Even though Bonds can throw well, 
  Clemente had the best outfield arm the game has ever seen. Both have/had 
  speed in the outfield and on the basepads and are excellent at getting RBIs. 
  Both were capably of making the big catch. Clemente was a better hitter for 
  average. Both have/had incredible baseball talent. Bonds will make a lot 
  more money and get a lot more publicity, but for some reason I doubt that 
  people will be talking about him as a God-like baseball player 20 years 
  after his death as they do with the Great One.

		Keith

    re: .451
    
    Clemente was a great ballplayer. But part of the reason people talk
    about him now as they do is because of the tragic way he died.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    If what we're seeing right now is the real Barry Bonds and he can
    continue to do for another ten years what he's done the past four, I'd
    have to rate him a better all-around hitter than Clemente, because of
    his power.  The difference between a .290 hitter and a .320 hitter is
    not that much, not if you can hit 30 home runs.  But I agree, Clemente 
    was quite probably the best defensive outfielder the game has ever seen.
    
    When you start talking about the greatest of all time and such, as 
    great as he was it's tough to place Clemente above of two of his own 
    NL peers, Henry Aaron and Willie Mays.  As an outfielder, it's not 
    humanly possible to make up for 650, 750 home runs with your glove.
    Those kind of numbers are ones that no currently active player can even
    dream of...
    
    glenn
    
                                         

 � But part of the reason people talk about him now as they do is because
 � of the tragic way he died.
 
 Same thing with Thurman Munson.  Clemente was a lock for the Hall Of Fame
 and they did the right thing waiving his 5-year waiting period.   But
 Munson was borderline all the way and there are times when his fans seem
 really perturbed that he ain't in the Coop.   Nosediving your plane into
 the ground (or the sea in Clemente's case) don't getcha in da Hall unless
 you gots da numbers to get there in the firsted place.
 
 Clemente was a great player, no doubt about it.  Better than Willie Mays
 or Hank Aaron ???   That's real tough but I really don't think so.  They
 all got rings so they all were winners but Mays and Aaron were just
 awesome ballplayers.   Clemente was merely astounding.
 
 Bob Hunt

  You guys have made some good points the last few replies but I'll still 
  stick with Clemente as being the best I've ever seen(although maybe I
  should say he's my favorite of all time). I grew up watching Clemente play 
  3 or 4 times a week so I knew first hand what type of a player he was. 
  And I'm sure the people in Milwaukee felt the same about Aaron and the 
  people in San Francisco felt the same about Mays. They watched
  those excellent atheletes play everyday and only saw Clemente 4 or 5
  times a year. So yes, it's hard to say who was the best, I just went the
  way my heart said to go. But I was always amazed at the lack of national
  publicity Clemente got until the 71 series. When he finally got the
  recognition, I couldn't help but think "hell, he's been playin like this
  for the last 15 years and it's about time he finally got some respect". 

 � But part of the reason people talk about him now as they do is because
 � of the tragic way he died.
 
  Good point. For me, it was just like the "day the music died" when Buddy 
  Holly, Richie Valens and the Big Bopper died. I couldn't believe the news
  and I didn't want to believe it was true. The next year there was something 
  inside of me that still expected to see the Great One wearin a Pirate 
  uniform in right field and hittin a game winning line drive when the score 
  was tied in the nineth. The Pirates have had some very good ballplayers 
  since then but for me there's been a black hole in right field since the 
  day of that awful crash. If it hadn't been for that tragic day, the people 
  in Pittsburgh might just talk about Clemente like they do Jack Lambert or 
  Franco Harris(Hall of Famers, great players but not Gods).
  
	Keith

    re: Bob Hunt
    
    I must disagree that the HoF did the correct hing by waiving the 5 yr
    rule. It would have done nothing to diminish what Clemente did to make
    him wait the 5 yrs. If he had been in a position where he had a fatal
    illness and would not have lived to see his induction, that would have
    been different. Clemente was already dead. I think you might see
    something similar to this if Magic Johnson takes a bad turn (heaven
    forbid!) and might not make it until he's eligible for the Basketball
    HoF. Otherwise, I don't see the reason to waive the waiting
    requirement.
    
    Dennis
    

 � It would have done nothing to diminish what Clemente did to make him
 � wait the 5 yrs. 
 
 *He* wasn't waiting for anything.  He was shark food long by then.  It's
 really a moot point.   Either way would have been fine.  The man was a
 lock anyway.
 
 Bob Hunt

    
    
    	I really don't think people remember Clemente (at least I don't)
    becaue of the way he died.  In a way though, through death, he became
    bigger than life.
    
    	Until '71, Clemente was really unnoticed to a degree.  If asked
    by the media or the average fan across the nation who the best was,
    the Mantle's, Aaron's, May's and so forth were usually mentioned.
    Clemente seemed to be an afterthought and part of that might have
    been due to his race.  Clemente was really the first great star from
    outside the USA and since the NL and AL were just getting used to the
    idea of blacks being equal, they might of not felt to warm and fuzzy
    about a non-resident being tabbed as the greatest baseball player at
    that time.
    
    	Sad though that the world really didn't know what Clemente was all
    about until '71 when they found out not only could he play, put he had
    a genuine concern for the people of Puerto Rico.  People in Pittsburgh
    always knew of the work Clemente did in the off season, so even though
    it was a surpirse to us that he died so suddenly, it seems fitting 
    that he died helping others less fortunate.
    
    	Although I can't speak for Mantle and Yaz, and can only say that
    I saw Mays and Aaron play a few times compared to Clemente, I'd have
    to say that he was as complete a ballplayer as Mays was.  Aaron,
    although a great hitter and one for power, was nowhere near the
    defensive outfielder Clemente was.  Aaron was good in the OF, but
    Clemente was the best rightfielder I have ever seen, and I've never
    seen anyone that could throw like he could and get it there on line!
    
    	Funny thing is when we all compare greats to great, to much
    emphasis is placed on the offensive part of the game.  Those that
    appreciate and think Bill Russell was the best do so because he was
    the consumate team player and because of his defensive skills.  I 
    could make the same comparison with Clemente.  He played hurt at times
    and always gave 100%.  I also doesn't hurt to have 12 Gold gloves along 
    with an MVP, four batting titles, not to mention a few records leading 
    the league in assists and two World Championships.
    
    	Geez, I'll always love Clemente and cherish the thoughts and 
    memories I have of him.  Hopefully, I'll be able to communicate some
    of those to my son who can only watch the man on video.
    
    	We all have our heros and favorites.. I guess no one in my mind
    will ever take the place Clemente has in my heart.
    
    
    								bill..g.
    

  Regarding the comparison between Bonds and Clemente:

	I don't think anyone will disagree that Bonds has the talent to
	have a career comparable to a Roberto Clemente or a Willie Mays
	or a Hank Aaron. However, with Bonds, the jury is still out. He's 
	relatively young and still has a long career ahead of him. A lot of 
	things can and will happen in the coming years. Someone pointed out
	that Bonds is a better HR hitter and that stat is very important. 
	But I think that the RBI stat is even better to look at when comparing 
	players. If you look at Clemente's RBI stats, on average, they may 
	not be as high as Bonds but they were very high and close to what 
	Bonds has been doing. But then there's the intangibles. Clemente
	was a team leader even though his English was horrible. So far, I've
	seen no team leadership with Bonds. The only thing he's been able
	to inspire, so far, has been his ego. Also, when invited to the Big
	Dance, Clemente put on one of the greatest all around 
	performances(1971) ever seen in the history of the World Series.
	So far, Bonds hasn't done this. In fact, when invited to the 2nd biggest
	dance, he has twice played poorly. One final important fact, the 
	people of Pittsburgh loved Clemente. Bonds, well, that's another story.

	Clemente just did everything so well and then he would do things
	that you just couldn't believe were possible. In my mind, I can still
	see him digging a ball out of the dirt on the warning track in the
	right field corner, spinning around in a circle and throwing an on the
	fly strike to nail a runner at third. And he would do it all in one
	motion. 

>    	We all have our heros and favorites.. I guess no one in my mind
>       will ever take the place Clemente has in my heart.
    
	Yesterday, after making my last few entries I was thinking exactly
	the same thing. Pittsburgh has been blessed with some great athletes
	over the years with people like Bradshaw, Harris, Blount, Lambert,
	Ham, Stargell, Tony Dorsett and now Mario Lemieux. I think every
	sports fan has one player who has inspired him more than any other
	player he has ever seen and the player becomes almost larger than
	life. For me, that player has always been Roberto Clemente and the
	others are a distance 2nd.

		Keith

>        Pittsburgh has been blessed with some great athletes
>	over the years with people like Bradshaw, Harris, Blount, Lambert,
>	Ham, Stargell, Tony Dorsett and now Mario Lemieux. 
    
    ...Bruno Samartino
    
    

    One of my memories of Clemente is the way he legged out triples.
    My Grandfather had box seat tickets behind the Bucs dugout at Forbes
    Field and I got to go to many a game with him(and ate and ate and ate).
    To see Clemente turn a double into a triple, and the way he ran, which
    looked a little unorthodox, is something blasted into my memories.
    His legs would be flailing in every direction, and at times I wondered
    how someone could run as fast as he did with the ways his legs went.
    
    Also, to watch him take his "big cut", where his momentum would turn
    him completely around, was great too.  Saw him crank a homer over the
    457 ft. mark one fine day, also.
                                             
    JaKe
    

    Re the Bucs, Stan "He did it Agin" Belinda gave up a 2 run homer to
    Sammy Sosa yesterday in some extra inning, I fergit which, to drop
    another Bucco game.
    
    Fortunately, The Expos(ed) lost too, so the Bucs and Expos(ed) are
    steel tied for first place in the East.
    
    The Bucs now come home after a disastrous road trip which saw them
    leave with a five game lead, and come home tied for first.
    
    JaKe
    

       HEy Jake, I saw SMokey Burgess hit a triple at Forbes one night.
    Prob'ly the only one a his carreer!
                                           Denny

    
    >>   HEy Jake, I saw SMokey Burgess hit a triple at Forbes one night.
    >>Prob'ly the only one a his carreer!
    >>                                       Denny
    
    What happened, everybody in the outfield fall down???  (8^)*
    
    Bucs beat the Cards lasted night, 4-0, behind Danny Jackson and Bob
    Patterson combining for the shutout.
    
    Montreal also won so the Bucs and Expos(ed) are still tied for first.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    >>   HEy Jake, I saw SMokey Burgess hit a triple at Forbes one night.
    >>Prob'ly the only one a his carreer!
    >>                                       Denny
    >
    > What happened, everybody in the outfield fall down???  (8^)*
    
    Lotta space out in the outfield at Forbes Field, which was the triples 
    park of all of baseball (the Pirates still hold most individual and
    team triples records).  Even Smokey had 33 in his career, which in a
    normal park wouldn't be bad for even an average runner.  Obviously
    these triples would have been inside-the-park home runs for anyone
    else...
    
    glenn
    

    Bucs pulled out the brooms this weekend and swept a four game series
    from the Cards, including yesterday's beauty where the Cards got a gift
    run in the eigh.  In the bottom of the ninth, With one out, Andy Van
    Slyke singled, then stole second.  With 2 out Jeff King singled up the 
    middle, scoring Van SLyke.  King went to second on the throw home, which got
    away slightly from Pagnozzi.  Don Slaught then singled into right
    center, and King scored slightly ahead of the throw, and the Bucs had
    plucked Victory from the Jaws of defeat.  The losing pitcher was none
    other than Lee Smith, whom is having his problems this year, 'specially
    with people stealing bases on him.  The Bucs are 8-2 .vs. Smith in his
    career.
    
    Bucs are now up by 2 games and have tonight off with the Mucking
    Fets(minus one Blobby Bon(haid)illa, who dislocated his head, er broke
    a rib, yeah, that's the ticket, yesterday trying to immitate Andy Van
    Slyke.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs beat the Mucking Fets 2nite in 12 innings.
    
    Cubbies overcame an early 5-0 deficit to beat the Expos(ed), so the
    Bucs lead is now 2-1/2 games.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs pulled out the broom for the Mucking Fets, in a 2 game series.
    
    The Bucs won tonight, 6-2.  Rookie knuckleballer, Tim Wakefield, in
    just his second major league start, got the win and is now 2-0, having
    beaten St. Louis in his major league debut last week.
    
    Bucs scored 3 in the first(1 on a double steal, Jeff King stealing
    second, while Lloyd McClendon(sp?) went home.  Other 2, Bell double,
    Van SLyke single, bell scores, McClendon singles, Bonds Sac fly, double
    steal.
	    
    Mets are now 7-1/2 back.
    
    Montreal is leading the Cubs in the eights, 5-2, so if they win, the
    Bucs will still hold a 2-1/2 game lead over the Expos(ed).
    
    JaKe
    

    FWIW, The Bucs ERA for the six game home stand they just completed, and
    went 6-0 during, was 0.95
    
    JaKe
    

    I saw Tim Wakefield pitch for the Carolina Mudcats when they played the
    Charlotte Knights last year.  He got rocked around the fifth inning
    then, but I was hoping he would make it.  
    
    Glad to see his knuckler took him to a win in the bigs...especially
    against the hated Mets.
    
    	--dan'l

>
>    I saw Tim Wakefield pitch for the Carolina Mudcats when they played the
>    Charlotte Knights last year.  He got rocked around the fifth inning
>    then, but I was hoping he would make it.  
    
That to me is what makes watching minor league ball so much fun.

I've seen guys like John Marzano, Steve Lyons, Ellis Burkes, Roger Clemens,
and Sam Horn all in AA ball.  It was fun....


'saw

    Dem Bucs beat the Cards lasted night(er, actually this morning), 3-2 in
    13 innings.
    
    Montreal also won so the Bucs lead is still 2-1/2 games.
    
    Ths Bucs have now won 7 in a row.  Their longest streak this year was 9
    games.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs pulled out the Broom this weekend, and swept the Cards about down
    the drain.
    
    The Bucs have won 10 straight, their longest winning streak in 14
    years.
    
    Bring on the Mucking Fets!!!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    

    Make that 11 in a row and the Mets lost their 7th in a row...
    
    REK

    Mets lost in 16 innings 4-2. It was a really good game. Good defense,
    great pitching. Kept me up until 12:45AM and then there was work to do.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Sure was a good game, I left Brockway, Pa.(111 miles northeast of Pgh,
    all backroads) at about 10:30 p.m. and got to listen to the 8th inning
    to the end of the game.  GREAT that the Bucs beat the Mucking Fets,
    AGAIN, this year.  
    
    The Bucs lead is still 3-1/2 as the Expos(ed) crushed the Cubbies
    yesterday, 11-0.
    
    Rookie knuckleballer Tim Wakefield pitched another very good game,
    giving up only 3 hits in 8 innings, but got a no decision.
    
    Bucs and Mucking Fets agin tonite.
    
    JaKe
    

    Those Mucking Fets beat the Bucs tonite, 2-0 to stop the Bucs win
    streak at 11 games  Good performance by rookie pitcher from NY (can't
    remember name) who got his 1st major league win.
    
    The Expos(ed) beat the Cubbies in 17 innings today, 3-2, so the Bucs
    lead falls to 2-1/2 games.
    
    JaKe
    

    Of course a pitcher making his first start in the majors got the win.
    Guy pitched 8 innings of shutout ball and the fans booed when they
    pinch hit for him. Mets scored 2 unearned runs. 2 outs in the 3rd an
    error by King followed by 3 hits and that was it. Drabek pitched a
    complete game, in this case 8 innings, but got the loss.
    
    Guess its only fair a rookie won the gme. Mets have made a habit over
    the last few years of making rookie pitchers look like Cy Young (see
    Tomlin in 1991 among others).
    
    The Crazy Met
    

Kid was only 22 years old, I heard......


Nice way to start a career!


'Saw

Any of you Pencilvanians know anything about Harrisburg?  Is it near anything
else?  Decent town?  ANything to do?  I may be down there nexted week...

JD

      I think Hershey Park's not too far from there. And a course 3-mile
    Island.
                                   Denny

    Good eats.  You'll be in Pennsylvania Dutch country.

       ...Dutch country has lots a outlet stores if you're so inclined.
                                    Denny

    
    Lotta whitetails to blow away down there too.
    
    Dickstah
    

    I believe Gettysburg is within an hour's ride. Could be mistook, tho.
    
    MikeL
    

    ...and while you're within a coupla hundred miles you might as well go
    to Camden Yahds too. You don't have to worry though, they already had a
    team when they built the stadium!
                                 Denny

    Food is overrated.  All those family style places don't serve beer!

       I think that's 'Amish effects' Brews.
                                Denny

    So you are planning on replying to JOBS note 4109 too, eh JD?
    
    Harrisburg is a big little city.  State capital.  Good minor league
    hockey (Hershy Bears).  Good water polo team.  About 2� to Philly, 3 to
    Pittsburgh.  Rabid Penn Staters.
    
    	--dan'l

    Bucs winning in 7th inning, 5-3 but steel 2 innings left to go.
    
    JaKe
    

    If you get a chance while your in Harrisburg, you can check out some
    Eastern League baseball at RiverSide Park in Harrisburg. The ballpark
    is on an island in the middle of the Sussquehanna (sp) River and is a
    neat place to see a game. The Reading Phillies play about 1 1/2 hours
    away from Harrisburg. The Phillies will be home fore some of next week.
    And if you do go to Camden Yards, take your wallet. All of those games
    are sold out and the scalpers want big bucks.
    
    Dennis

    re-.1
    
    As an added bonus, after attending one of those games on that island,
    you won't use any electricity to light your home for a week or so cause
    you'll be glowing from 3 Mile Island being so near.
    
    JaKe
    

    Jake it was 6-3 after 6.5 any more updates? 
    
    Happy BD, even if you are a Pirate/Penguin fan.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

Thanks for the info.  SHould be down there nexted M-W, barring something
unforseen in the nexted day or two.

Doubt I'll have much time to take in a game or travel much, I haven't been
down that way in probably 15-20 years - whenever the last time I went
to Gettysburg was.

JD

    Bucs beat the Mucking Fets in 10 innings, 7-6.
    
    Jay Bell knocked Lloyd McClendon(sp?) in with the winning run by
    hitting a triple in the top of the 10th.  Stan Belinda, as usual, made
    things hairy by walking one, and going to a 3-2 count on another before
    Leyland yanked him in the bottom of the 10th.  Fets ended up loading
    the bases with 2 out before Bob Patterson got Eddie Murray to fly out
    to Andy Van SLyke to end the game.
    
    JaKe
    

    Thanks for the BD wishes gents.
    
    37 years ago today my mom went thru tons of pain, and when I popped
    out, the first thing she could say was,
    
    WHAT THE HELL IS THAT??????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    37 years later, almost every time she sees me she wonders the same
    thing.
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

37 - what an old fart!

=Bob= (a mere child of 35 nexted week)

I'll be 34 nexted month, but I learned the secret of a long, young life
years ago.

When I was a little boy, just into baseball, I saw a film clip of the
homer that Ted Williams hit in the All-Star game.  I saw Ted clap his
hands as he rounded first base, and for some reason that impressed me.

Over the years, that vision has stayed with me, and some years ago
I began to realize that you are only old if you feel old, and that your
attitude has a great deal to do with the way you look.


I mean, look at lEe.  He's older than Methusalah, but he doesn't look
a day over 70.....8^)



Happy B-day Jakester!!!!


'Saw

    
    I know what you mean, 'Saw.  Everytime I score too I run around the
    bedroom clapping and waving.  That's when my wife starts looking
    through the yellow pages for either lawyers or mental health clinics,
    or both.
    
    Dickstah
    

    
    Dickstah,
    
    How do you know your wife is looking through the yellow pages? 
    Whenever you score in the bedroom, she's over at the neighbors house. 
    
    Brews

    'Saw  Thanks
    
    Bucs lead stayed at 2-1/2 lasted night as the Expos(ed) beat the dying
    Cubbies agin.
    
    Bucs are off tonite and then Atlanta comes into Pittsburgh tomorrow for
    a 4 game series.  Advance ticket sales are throught the roof, according
    to reports.
    
    JaKe
    

    re: .502
    
    You mean people in Fittsburgh are actually buying tickets to see the
    Pucks?? Amazing. If the Pirates win the division they may even sell out
    the stadium for the playoffs.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    Careful, TCM, I got the goods on you.
    
    Brews

    Bucs lose to the Braves in 10 innings, 6-5(or was it 5-4?).
    
    Lead is now 2 games as Montreal didn't play tonight.
    
    JaKe
    

	I saw the last four innings of last nights game.  By far the most 
pathetic attempt at an at-bat was Bonds' weak sister attempt that ended 
the game. This guy continues to cough up the giant plegm ball anytime he 
gets into a clutch situation.  

        He must have thought that it was October and they were in the playoffs!

Bill

    
    > I saw the last four innings of last nights game.  By far the most 
    > pathetic attempt at an at-bat was Bonds' weak sister attempt that ended 
    > the game. This guy continues to cough up the giant plegm ball anytime he 
    > gets into a clutch situation.  
    
    Please.  What about the few ninth- and extra-inning game-winning home 
    runs the guy has hit the past couple of years?  What about the game 
    earlier this season, where with the Bucs three runs down in the ninth 
    inning, Bonds delivered with a two-out bases-clearing triple to tie the
    game?  The TBS announcers had just finished saying that Bonds'
    production late in close games had been excellent this year when he
    struck out.  Sometimes you're going to lose...
    
    glenn
    

 That's true, Glenn, but Alejandro Pena just completely overmatched poor
 Barry on that final at-bat lasted night.   I actually felt a little sorry
 for the young stud.  Pena was throwing aspirin tablets past him and Bonds
 looked tres feeble.
 
 Bob Hunt

    
    Absolutely.  That's 19 out of 20 scoreless appearances for Pena.  The
    guy's got it back together and at least part of the Braves' bullpen
    problems appear to be solved.  He's been making a lot of hitters look
    foolish lately...
    
    glenn
     

I liked the look on Bonds' face after Pena threw some *serious* heat past him
for strike 1 (Bonds started his swing about when the ball was in the catcher's
mitt).

You could see him thinking "Hey waitaminute, I faced this guy earlier in the
year and he didn't have *that* kind of smoke before!".

He did look kinda pathetic when he struck out, tried to do the exasperated
grab-the-bat-by-the-barrel, and ended up fumbling it back to the backstop.

Bruce (a Reds fan who is hoping that *somebody* will start beating the Braves 
but is losing hope day-by-day)

    I'm with Glenn on Bonds.  As much as I hate the guy as the spoiled brat
    he is, there are few players I would rather have up in a clutch
    situation between the months of April and September.  October is a
    different story for Mr. Whiney-pants.
    
    Still won't shed many tears when his sour personality leaves the
    Pirates to be the bane of some other team, though.
    
    	--dan'l

	re: .508

	Glenn,

	As a translant up here in New Hanpshire, I'll grant you that I don't
	get to see "Mr October-NOT" very often, much less read a play by play
	account of all the Bucco's games.  The only time they seem to get a
	big writeup in the local paper is when Mike Lavalliere, a Manchester,
	NH, native, has an outstanding game.  
	
	One thing that, in my opinion, seems to be consistant is Mr O.N.'s 
	gross inconsistancy under pressure.  I'm sure he has probably had a few 
	instances that go against this belief, but they appear to be more 
	the exception than the norm.

	Anyway, what I was getting at in my original reply was that Mr O.N.
	looked a whole lot like he did last October against the same team --
	totally without a clue.

	Bill

    I agree Pen� was throwing some serious smoke, but there was no reason
    for Bonds to lay off of that pitch.  From the moment it left Pen�'s
    hand it was headed to the strike zone and Bonds should have at least
    swung at the damned thang, but he just kept his thumb up his spoiled
    little a$$ and let the thing go by and the Bucs went to the clubhouse
    losers.
    
    The Bucs finished their season series with the Braves with a 5-7 record
    .vs. the Atlantans.
    
    The Bucs last hit in the game was Jeff King's home run in the 4th
    inning.  From then through the 10th, they had NO HITS!!!!
    
    The Braves, IMHO, have one helluva pitching staff.  The Pirates,
    comparatively, have a patchwork quilt of pitchers who somehow, have
    been getting the job done adequately.
    
    The Bucs loss lasted night was just their 4th loss in their last 17
    games.  Not too shabby.
    
    JaKe
    

 �   I agree Pen� was throwing some serious smoke, but there was no reason
 �   for Bonds to lay off of that pitch.  From the moment it left Pen�'s
 �   hand it was headed to the strike zone and Bonds should have at least
 �   swung at the damned thang, but he just kept his thumb up his spoiled
 �   little a$$ and let the thing go by and the Bucs went to the clubhouse
 �   losers.
 
 If Bonds was guessing off-speed, then that's exactly why his bat stayed on
 his shoulder.  Pena's heater was by him before he had a chance to react. 
 
 One could argue whether Bonds was or wasn't guessing off-speed on that
 pitch, but just think back to that final s-l-o-w pitch Pena threw against
 a frozen Andy Van Slyke in lasted year's NLCS Game 6 and you can't fault
 Barry at all if that's what he was thinking.
 
 In my opinion, I think he was guessing gas but Pena still blew it by him. 
 That'll be one of the hardest non-Ryan pitches you'll see all year.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Man, I guess you guys are going to be real disappointed when Barry
    comes through big in the postseason (you heard it here first!).  Which
    are you going to be rooting for, Barry Bonds to fall on his face or 
    the Pirates to win it all?  Is it a close call?
    
    glenn
    

    Given that even a good hitter fails to get the job done around 70% of
    the time, I find it interesting how fans can get on a hitter's case for
    1 failed at bat.

    re: .517
    
    Fans of the Red Sox have been doing that for years.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Bucs beat the Padres(for the first time this season in 7 meetings),
    5-1.  Mr. October(NOT) drove in a couple of runs.
    
    The Expos(ed) lost tonite to the Braves, so the Bucs lead is now 3
    games.
    
    JaKe

    Bucs won lasted night, Bob Walk pitched 7 good innings.
    
    Expos(ed) lost, so Bucs lead is up to 4 games.
    
    The Bucs are playing right now against San Diego(I think).
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs beat the Padres? today, 7-1 in an afternoon game.
    Don't know what the Expos(ed) did, but the Bucs lead will be at least 4
    games.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs lost to the Dodgers lasted night, 5-4.
    
    No game details.  Went to bed early 'cause I'm on dayshift this week.
    
    Did the Expos(ed) play lasted night????If yes, did they win or lose.
    
    I know the Expos(ed) start a series with the Braves tonite, but I'm not
    sure whether they had lasted night off or not.
    
    JaKe
    

    Expos had the night off.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Thanks
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs beat the Dodgers lasted night, 10-3.
    
    Andy Van Slyke lacked only a triple from hitting for the cycle.
    
    Expos(ed) won also.
    
    JaKe
    

    --dan'l, you'll love this.
    
    Barry "Wah Wah" Bonds has stated that he MAY take less money and stay
    with the Pirates after this season is over.  He said that he likes
    Pittsburgh and plying for Jim Leyland and is willing to take a reduced
    offer to stay here.
    
    My bet is that he won't be here, cause the Bucs Management won't fork
    over enuf just to keep him here.
    
    JaKe
    

    I'd just as soon see the Pirates let Bonds go on his merry arrogant way
    and concentrate on signing Drabek and perhaps going after Kirby
    Puckett.
    
    	--dan'l

	I wholeheartedly agree with dan'l.  Let Mr October(NOT) dash the 
	hopes of some other contender.

	Bill

    	Interesting statistic on ESPN's SportsCenter the other night
    regarding the Pirates offensive production.  Bonds and Van Slyke
    have almost as many homeruns as the rest of the team combined. 
    The Pirates will not even make it to October if Bonds leaves.
    
    				/Don

>    	Interesting statistic on ESPN's SportsCenter the other night
>    regarding the Pirates offensive production.  Bonds and Van Slyke
>    have almost as many homeruns as the rest of the team combined. 
>    The Pirates will not even make it to October if Bonds leaves.
    
  I agree. Without Bonds and Van Slyke, the Pirates batting average would be 
  something like .023. If there's a chance to sign Bonds, they should go
  after him. I'm no fan of Bonds, but a man with his talent doesn't end
  up in Pittsburgh that often. And, there's always the chance that he may grow
  up in the few years.

	Keith

	
	/Don,

	I saw that same show and I'll have to admit I was suprized by the
	statistic.  I suspect that Bond's production was more often than
	not inconsiquential to the outcome of a game.  What I mean is,
	from the limited number of games that I've been able to see/read
	about, VanSlyke, among others, have more consistantly made the big 
	offensive play to either win the game or at least turn it around.  
	Whereas Bonds will hit a solo homer, or drive in a RBI, to give 
	the Bucs a run in a game that is already out of reach, one way 
	or the other.

	I will grant you that this is an opinion of someone who has never
	really liked Bonds, but it seems to be shared by several more local
	fans in Pittsburgh.

	Bill

    The Bucs won lasted night, 2-0, over the Dodgers as the rookie
    knuckleballer, Tim Wakefield won again.  He's now either 4-1 or 5-1.  
    Can't remember.
    
    Don't know what the Expos(ed) did.
    
    JaKe
    

    re .532:
    
    Expos beat the Braves, can't remember the score.
    
    It's not that often one sees a knuckleball pitcher, but last night's
    Bucs-Dodgers game had two knuckleballers dueling (Wakefield and
    Candiotti for the Dodgers).
    
    
    py

    
    >>It's not that often one sees a knuckleball pitcher, but last night's
    >>Bucs-Dodgers game had two knuckleballers dueling (Wakefield and
    >>Candiotti for the Dodgers).
    
    Heard on the news at lunchtime that lasted night's squaring off of the
    knuckleballers was the first time it's been done in 10 years.
    
    Expos(ed) beat the Braves 5-4, so the Bucs lead is still 2-1/2 games.
    
    JaKe
    

    THe Padres walked over the Bucs lasted night, 11-6 or something like
    that.
    
    JaKe
    

    The Bucs won Saturday and Sunday over the Padres.
    
    No idea what the rest of the NL East did, since it was one of those
    "picnic" type weekends, where me and the fambily was out all weekend.
    
    JaKe
    

    So, if the Bucs advance to the postseason (and I'd say they're a good
    bet, with about two-thirds of their remaining games at home), are any
    of you Pittsburghers local or remote planning on going to the games to
    head off another MrT-inflamed "embarrassment"?  I'm thinking of going
    for the same deal I've had with my brother (from Ohio) the last two
    years, alas-- if the Pirates make the Fall Classic, I'll drive down
    (by my calculation those games would be on the weekends in the NL city
    this year).
    
    JaKe (Newspaperless One), have the Bucs announced ticket sales yet?
    A phone number?  Are they going to be smart about it for a change and 
    sell individual games for some of the seats?
    
    I'm not counting my chickens or anything (for starters the Braves look
    damn near invincible), but with SPORTS and its beloved members dying a
    slow painful death I thought I'd throw this out now...  ;-(
    
    glenn
      

    Glenn,
    
    if I'm still woefully unemployed in October (or I can convince my new
    employer to a late October start date) I've already told friends up
    home that I'll be there for the playoffs (provided Montreal does its
    usual end-of-the-season fold).  We were joking about going an hour
    before the game and getting tickets at the gate.  Sad but true.
    
    	--dan'l

    Playoff and WS tickets are available thru mail order only right now.
    
    If'n the Bucs make it, they'll be here in PGH. on Oct. 8, 9, & 10, a
    Friday, Sat. and Sun.
    
    Prices are $30 for reserved seats, and $20 for reserved General
    Admission(peanut heaven).
    
    No box seats are available(unless you know a scalper or two).
    
    You cain get an order form by calling 1-800-BUY-BUCS, or if you cain't
    get thru there, call 412-321-BUCS.
    
    Don't know if I'm going to any games yet, but probably will break down
    and go to at least one.
    
    JaKe
    

Dan'l -

Hey, you never know.  You may be on your way to Pittsburgh during a time when
I'm in Harrisburg.  Possible get together for a drink could be in the works??

Please note that I have no idea about the driving route from Charlotte to
the 'burgh.

JD

    Charlotte to Pittsburgh is a straight shot north, so I don't come close
    to Harrisburg.  Now, if you were willing to drive a few hours east, I'm
    sure JaKe and I could show you a most excellent time in Steel Town.
    
    	--dan'l

    Wow dan'l,
    I didn't know you were taking a geography class from ProfessorT??
    
    8^),
    MikeL
    

 Harrisburg - A mildewed naval port o' call smack in the heart of ACC
 country.
 
 Bob Hunt

Bob-

Must be a naval port - they got a navel depot right in town!

Dan'l -

If I have to spend more than a week (i.e. a weekend...) I could
probably make a trip to steel  town.  Although Washington D.C. is
a straight shot west from Harrisburg  ;-)

JD

    JaKe,
    
    I may be in Pittsburgh October 11-13. Probably have bunch of time on
    October 11th, too bad NLCS won't be having a game that day.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    TCM,
    
    Let me check tonite with the SO and see if she's got anything on the
    calendar.  If not, maybe we'll have to get together.
    
    Where you going to be staying in Pgh.????
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs won lasted night, 5-3 over the Giants.  Expos(ed) also won,
    keeping the Bucs lead at 3 games.
    
    Barry Bonds had a solo HR in the 2nd, his 24th on the year.
    
    JaKe
    

    If I am there it is to visit my brother his wife and my 10 month old
    nephew. Anyway Sunday night, Monday and Tuesday won't work for me, but
    sometime earlier on Sunday might. Heck a couple of brewskis and
    watching the Steelers lose might work for me.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    TCM:
    
    Where abouts in the Pittsburgh area??????
    
    JaKe
    
    

    The Bucs beat the Giants again tonite, 3-2 behind rookie knuckleballer
    Tim Wakefield.  They will end the night at least 3 games up depending
    on what the Expos(ed) do.
    
    JaKe
    

    Squirrel Hill
    
    The Crazy Met
    

From uvo.dec.com!rdg.dec.com!news.crl.dec.com!deccrl!decwrl!looking!clarinews Thu Sep  3 12:36:02 EDT 1992
Article 17407 of clari.sports.baseball:
Xref: e2big.mko.dec.com clari.sports.baseball:17407 clari.local.pennsylvania:633 clari.news.lifestyle:3309 clari.news.interest.people:7289
Path: e2big.mko.dec.com!uvo.dec.com!rdg.dec.com!news.crl.dec.com!deccrl!decwrl!looking!clarinews
>From: [email protected] (UPI)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.baseball,clari.local.pennsylvania,clari.news.lifestyle,clari.news.interest.people
Subject: She strips while team scores
Keywords: baseball, men's professional, sport trends, lifestyle, people,
	human interest
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 9:04:10 PDT
Location: pennsylvania
ACategory: sports
Slugword: bb-stripper
Priority: daily
Format: daily
ANPA: Wc: 92; Id: z4072; Sel: xxsbp; Adate: 9-3-12ned; Ver: 1/0
Approved: [email protected]
Codes: ysbpdxx., &sbpdpa., &ncsdpa., &nhpdpa.

	PITTSBURGH (UPI) -- Peanuts, popcorn and ... stripping.
	A bachelor party, complete with stripper, was held in one of the
private boxes at Three Rivers Stadium Wednesday night during the
Pittsburgh-San Francisco game.
	The woman, dressed in a string bikini, removed her clothing except
for the bikini bottom. Stadium security guards ejected her and those at
the bachelor party after receiving complaints from fans at the game.
	Pirates officials called it an ``unfortunate incident.''


    

       That's what they get for playing in onea those sanitized stadiums!
                                    Denny

    I wonder if --dan'l pushed up the clock on his request and it was HIS
    party?
    
    Was the Power Bulge ejected?
    
    deen to wonk,
    Kev
    

>The woman, dressed in a string bikini, removed her clothing except
>for the bikini bottom. Stadium security guards ejected her and those at   
>the bachelor party after receiving complaints from fans at the game.      

  Maybe now, they'll be able to sell all of their tickets for the NLCS.

	Keith_who_will_have_to_tune_in_to_more_Pirate_games

    Wasn't me, Kev.  I was getting my own private show that night here in
    Charlotte.  
    
    	--dan'l
    

    Where are the Bucs playing Sept 18?  I'll be in the Steel City,
    actually in Penn Hills, for a family reunion that weekend.  If they
    are at home, would anyone else be interested?
    
    Bill

    Bill,
    
    Pirates are at home the weekend of the 18th-20th, against the Phillies.
    
    
    py

    Thanks Paul.
    
    Jake,
    
    I guess I'll be sucking down Arns at the Three Rivers while yinns
    are partying in Massatooshits.
    
    Bill

    dan'l
    
    so I guess that date went pretty well.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

>If they are at home, would anyone else be interested?
    
    Probably only about 10,000 other people.  Pretty sad for a first place
    team in September.
    
    RE: that date going well
    
    She's no Jai, and I doubt there will be many that can compete, but the
    road to recovery is filled with humps...er...bumps.
    
    	--dan'l
    

    
    >>I may be in Pittsburgh October 11-13. Probably have bunch of time on
    >>October 11th, too bad NLCS won't be having a game that day.
    
    TCM:
    
    Game 5 is on Sunday the 11th of October.  You figuring on the Bucs
    sweeping, eh??
    
    JaKe
    
    

    I see where I made the mistake. In .539 you gave the dates as October
    8,9,10 and the days as Friday, Saturday, Sunday. 
    
    Is the NL Sunday game a day or night game? If it is a day game, how
    about it??
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    The game is at 4:00 pm.
    
    You make the call, If'n ya wants to go, I cain order the tickets.  Just
    tell me reserved or general admission(nosebleeds) reserved.  Hope you
    wouldn't mind the Mrs. going with us, too.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    The Bucs won their 7th in a row tonite over the Giants, 9-3.
    
    Alex COle(what a great acquisition he's turning out to be) had 4 hits,
    and Orlando Merced went 3-4 with a career high 5 RBI.  DOug Drabek got
    his 11th win(11-10)
    
    The Expos(ed) won so the lead stays at 3.
    
    JaKe
    

Goin' to the wire Jake.  

The 'spos are hot.  I watched a little of their game with the Braves lasted 
night, and they absolutly tagged Liebrant in the firsted two innings.  Buccos 
better keep winning, the 'spos timing seems to be good.

=Bob=

    Should be a good race. The 2 teams still have a few games agianst each
    other. The Bucs game was 2-2 last I heard. I usta follow the Expos as a
    kid, so I'd like to see them win it. We'll see...
    
    Tom

    
    After talking with my brother and father, if the Bucs hold on it looks 
    like there's a fair chance that I'll go out to Pittsburgh for those 
    NLCS games Oct 9-11 (if the Series happens, it happens, and I'll play 
    that by ear-- my ideal scenario would be Pirates-Orioles, Round III).  
    TCM, you definitely going to try to go to the Sunday game?  Maybe we 
    could all get together afterwards...
    
    glenn
      

 Should be plenty of tickets available ...
 
 Bob Hunt