Conference 7.286::sports_91

    Well, the Pistons have quietly put 10 wins in a row together.  Hope
    it continues.
    
    Anyone know if Dumars played last night?
    
    -Walt

    According to the Globe:
    
    	Dumars - 8-17, 1-2 - 17 points
    
    Mike

    How many minutes?

    Dumars played 43 minutes against the Mavs.  He also had 2 rebounds and
    4 assists.
    
    Joe

    Pistons win their 12th of 13 (lost at Phoenix without Thomas)
    101-90 over Boston (Boston was missing Bird and Parish). 
    
    Anyone know what's wrong with Isiah?  How long is he out for?
    
    -Walt

    USA Today said Zeke was "probable" for last night's game.  The
    injury was a pulled groin muscle.  Maybe Wednesday's game?

During the game, Fox25 annoucer Bob Cousy (ughh) said Isiah has 3 injuries - 
a pulled groin, something wrong with a shoulder, and a damaged wrist.  He said 
they are somewhat worried about the wrist, as it may be broken.  Test results 
on the wrist are forthcoming.  FWIW.

Scott

>    Pistons win their 12th of 13 (lost at Phoenix without Thomas)
    
    Suns held them to 0 FG's in the last 3 minutes to ice the win.
    
    Mike

    Jesse and Glen really enjoyed the Suns thrashing of the Pistons. 
    Detroit isn't as tough of a place now! ;-)

Article 958 of clari.sports.basketball:
From: [email protected] (BOB TRIPI, UPI Sports Writer)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball
Subject: (Suns 112, Pistons 97)
Date: 3 Feb 91 20:27:52 GMT
Priority: regular


	AUBURN HILLS, Mich. (UPI) -- Kevin Johnson poured in 28 points Sunday
afternoon, including 20 in the first half, to help the Phoenix Suns to a
112-97 victory over the Detroit Pistons.
	Tom Chambers and Xavier McDaniel added 20 points apiece for the Suns,
29-15, who swept the Pistons in their two-game season series. They also
beat Detroit 103-102 on Jan. 18.
	Detroit, 32-14, had its five-game winning streak snapped and lost for
the second time in its 22 home games this year.
	The Suns scored five of the first seven points of the third quarter
to go ahead 64-50 with 11:29 to play.
	Joe Dumars keyed a 7-0 Detroit spurt with five points as the Pistons
climbed within 66-59 with 9:03 remaining. Detroit again cut the deficit
to seven points, 72-65, with 5:26 left.
	Phoenix regained control and hit six straight points at the end of
the quarter to take an 87-69 edge.
	The Suns maintained a sizeable lead in the final quarter, not
allowing the Pistons any closer than 14 points.
	Dumars paced the Pistons with 20 points and James Edwards added 18.

    The Hawks that the Pistons to five games.  I'm worried about the
    Pistons this year.  They just haven't seemed the same team since Isiah
    went down. They have had a long history of injuries and winning inspite
    of it, but I guess this just shows how important Isiah is to the team.
    
    This is a team that has always thrived on adversity, but now they are
    putting themselves in must-win positions much too often.  I hope they
    can get themselves back in synch soon.  This is a little late to be off
    your game.
    
    Commander Scott

    
    Rumour has it that at the end of the season McCloskey is going
    to make some wholesale changes to the Pistons. Possible trade
    bait:
    
    John Salley, Mark Aguire, James Edwards.
    
    Laimbeer might retire.  Salley is looking at becoming a free agent.
    Edwards is unhappy with his contract.  Aguire has been whining about
    playing time.
      
    The Pistons are looking to make deal to get a first round draft
    choice this year.
    
    \pjb

    The problem with the Pistons trying to trade is that they have
    basically three marketbale commodities:  Dumars, Rodman, and the
    Little Princess (tm).  It seems VERY doubtful they'd trade Dumars 
    or Rodman, so Isiah is the most likely candidate to go.  The Thomas
    to the Clippers rumor will most likely surface again.  I think it was
    Thomas and some scrub for Gary Grant and two #1 picks.
    
    Edwards will be 36 nexted year, which makes him virtually untradeable.
    VJ will be 34, which puts him in the same category.  Aguirre will be
    32, and I doubt they'll be much interest in his act.  Salley is an
    unrestricted free agent, so the Pistons couldn't trade him if they
    wanted to.
    
    NAZZ

    
    re: -1
    
    From what happened to the Pistons this year when Isiah went down
    with his wrist injury I don't think he will be traded.  The Pistons
    have only one point guard and that is Isiah.  Dumars filled in pretty
    well but he is best suited for the scoring guard.
    
    McCloskey has been in Italy lately looking at Shackleford.  It seems
    he has cleaned up his act since his NJ days.
    
    \pjb

 But Chuck was just saying the other night that they were on top of their
 game defensively wasn't he???

 ;^)

 Speaking of Chuck, should the Pistons make an early exit (highly unlikely)
 will he jump off the sinking ship much like the other would-be genuis with
 the vitalsis hair-do???

 mike

    
    re. -1
    
    I think Chuck is gone after this year.  He can then devote his time
    to the Olympic's.  If he does go I hope the Pistons make one of
    the Brendan's  Suhr or Malone the coach.
    
    \pjb

    Rothstein could coach too.  Or Vercase...
    
    I don't think he'll leave though.  I think he'll stick around 1 more
    year.

    	Hey Walt, I say we make a little "manly" wager.  If the Celtics
    win this series you have to wear my Larry Bird hat for a week and
    if the Pistons win I'll wear the Dennis Rodman shirt that I got
    as a joke gift for Xmas.  Whattadaya say?
    
    				/Don

    re .18:
    
    How about loser wears said apparel to TigerMania?
    
    
    py

    What?  I get to wear your lousy, smelly, well used Larry Legend hat
    that who knows what kind of cooties it has, and you get to wear some
    shirt you've never worn before?  Nah, can't do that... I got a
    Princess jersey you can wear.  Unless you let me see the t-shirt
    first...
    
    Tigermania?  Hmmm... I want to make an Ernie Harwell banner for that
    game and get on TV in Detriot (tm) to incite riots all over again if
    we clinch the AL East that night.  Aren't there events before then?
    I'd do it Giantmania came off...
    
    
    Wait... Detriot ain't no place for wimps... I can handle that, besides,
    that's only if Larry and his cryer boys who don't ever foul anyone win,
    right?  I'd say ok by me... I'd wear it at either... just don't stretch
    the seams on my jersey, ok?  And just in case, keep the hat away from
    Dinz' jock!
    
    -Walt
            

	The T-shirt has a picture of Rodman, fist defiantly thrust in the 
air, running down court in a Detriot� home uniform.  On the side are 
relevant statistics in Rodman's career and down the bottom is his nickname 
"The Worm".  My "Larry Legend" hat's been hardly worn, never been near 
Dinz's jockstrap, never, ever and has his handsome visage adorning the 
front of the cap.  Giantsmanis� if it comes off it is, or maybe when we do 
our Patriots/Giants - Foxy Lady doubleheader.

				/Don

    Anyone have an update on Isiah Thomas' condition?
                                                                         
    
    py

    Didn't see the game (sorry Ram, didn't feel like driving to the border
    to see their exploits...) what happened THIS time?
    
    Thomas is day-to-day.  I hope he doesn't play tomorrow, honestly.
    I guess as the team leader, he wants to make sure he throws in the
    past triumphs to inspire them...
    
    NBA Finals - lose game 7 bad ankle
    NBA Finals - beat the Lakers, Scott has a bad hamstring, which by
    Dan's dissertation is much different from a bad ankle and now way
    anyone with hamstring problems can play
    NBA Finals - broken hand (except wrist surgery this year)...
    
    Maybe if he's lucky, the Celts can goon him and make him have back
    spasms too...
                             
    Let me guess, if the Celts lose, Chuck Person will B to BLAM, right?

    re Walt, there were a couple of plays where Laimbeer drew an offensive
    foul against a Celtic that looked questionable/borderline.  As Hawk
    noted McHale was also the beneficiary of such a play, Laimbeer being
    assesed the foul.  
    
    There was plenty of sloppy play and poor shooting on both sides...
    whoever wins this series is going to have to crank things up a couple
    notches over last night, or they'll be handled easily in the Eastern
    finals.
    
    
    py

Walt,

Marc Sullivan took a job in the Boston minor league system.

HTH
daryll

    
    	So who won todays game?
    
    B.A.

    Celts did 109-103. Thomas wimped out but Bird played.
    

    Yeah, yeah, wimped out, they got the split, give him more time to
    rest the ankle... we'll see how Larry's back is on Saturday...

    ><<< Note 72.31 by REFINE::ASHE "Whatever happened to Long Duck Dong?" >>>
    
    He's the cook in some really dumb sitcom I watched one night when I had
    nothing to do.  I don't know why, but I laughed.  It's about a diner on
    a lake where they repair boat engines.  Someone who knows more about
    current TV shows can fill in the details.
    
    Dan

    <<< Note 72.32 by VAXWRK::SCHNEIDER "Sununu escaped from Animal Farm" >>>
    
    >                 -< I'd recognize Long Dong anywhere! >-
    
    Gawd knows you've seen enough of 'em.
    
    Regarding Thomas' "wimping out".  Yeah right.
    
    Mark.

    So that is the same guy?  I knew the guy on that show was the same guy
    that was in Gung Ho or whatever that flick was with Michael Keaton,
    but I wasn't sure if he was the same guy as Long Duck Dong.   The
    flick was on the other night, that guy still cracks me up...

Same guy!

And Gung Ho made me think of George "Norm" Wendt.  He's profiled in Playboy
this month, for his cooking ability.  It seems that cooking with beer is
becoming big in the States, and he makes his chili that way.

But the point is that his wife is pretty good looking.  She's an actress
too, I think her name is Brigitte Birkette......

'Saw

PS George was in Gung Ho.....

    Yeah, with boar sausage and venison.
    
    Mark (purveyer of fine chili).

 sounds interesting and tasty Mark. I was refering to the beer, but then again
 you knew that, Hawk knew that and probably 1/2 the free world did too...

 last one out the door tonight needs his head examined...

 mike

    Mike, I know you knew that.  I know that Hawk knew that, too.  And that
    probably 1/2 of the free world knew it.
    
    But you knew that.
    
    Mark.

I gather the lack of input in this note lately has
SOMETHING to do with the Pistons Somnambulist act on
Saturday...

Hmmm?

    Not from me... I've got work to do... but the whole team slept, what is
    there to say?  The refs didn't lose it.  The defense didn't lose it.
    The Pistons just failed to show up... what else needs to be said?
    
    

    Well, with being on the road full time, I haven't been able to catch
    every game.  But the Pistons are 4-0 when I've watched most of the
    game.  Looks like I d*mm well better watch the game tonight.
    
    Commander Scott

 Scott,, your boss just called me he wants to know if you can work some
 overtime tonight from 8 till 11????

 ;^)

    Refusing to pay $60/ticket for tonight's festivities, I'll be driving
    to Albany to see it...
    
    Has nothing to do with my brother leaving for Switzerland tomorrow
    afternoon... (BTW, don't expect to hear much from me about anything
    in here, either way...)

    re: .43
    
    So that's why I only hear from my boss 2-3 time a month -  HE'S TALKING
    TO YOU.
    
    Seriously though, it is 15 min to tip-off time.  I'm outa here.  Stop
    at the Sub shop for beer n food, and back ta the hotel to watch the
    Piston produce that blowout everyone is waiting for.
    
    Commander Scott

    
    Pistons are now 9 - 0 when televising the away playoff game on
    palace vision.  They shouldn't have let Boston get back into the
    game.  Unbelievable that Dumars takes 2 charging calls in the
    garden in the last minute.
    
    Commander Scott please watch the game on Friday night.  I do not
    want to watch another game at the garden.
    
    \pjb

    I watched the first half, then had to go out.  I turned on TNT to catch
    part of the post-game show.  They didnt' show the score, and were
    gushing about Bird and showing Larry and gushing. I figured the Celts
    had won.   Then I saw the final on ESPN.  Made my night!
    
    JD

    Great shooting by Bird in 4th quarter, great game from lewis,
    
    pinkney did it on the defensive end, Dee Brown continues to impress
    
    he made  some clutch  outside shots.. Need the CHIEF  tomorrow to pull
    
    game 6  out
    
    Dinz
    

    The Celtics choked.  They had a 2 chances to tie in within the last 24
    seconds of the game and 1) Larry forces a 3-point attempt that clangs,
    and then Reggie charges Dumars.
    
    Mark.

    A few more points on the Piston's lead in the the middle of the 3d 
    quarter, and it might have been a blowout.  As it was, it was real
    tense in the 4th when it looked like they were falling apart.  They got
    it together during gut-check time though.
    
    Yes I am planning on watching the game friday, just to preserve the
    streak.  Have ta have a talk with the wife-to-be though.  She still
    claims that I told her the NCAA Final was the last basketball game of
    the season.
    
    As to why the Pistons are 5-0 in the playoffs when I watch, easy - the
    Pistons raise the intensity level when their back is to the wall.  I
    simply make a point to watch when conventional wisdom says it's a
    critical game.  Unfortunetly, they can be beat other times, this year
    especially.
    
    Here's hopin' - the Celtics may have more to lose this game.
    
    Commander Scott
    
    P.S. Those charges looked perty obvious to me.  Great shooting when
    they had to to have the buckets too.

   <<< Note 72.53 by CNTROL::CHILDS "Shot NG! He forgot to call the bank" >>>
                               -< Congrats Walt >-


Dan, Doc feel good, my mind just kept wandering, couldn't believe on 
saturday that I was no going to see another Celtics game this year...
What a knife! What a series! Looks like a ThreePeat to me....

Can we have Dennis Rodman please???? He was my MVP of the series...

Looks like CAM was nice enough to take off friday just like me....

;^)

    Yeah Mike, that 3 pointer looked like something NAZZ will throw up
    (so to speak) this afternoon... sorry I can't be there for that,
    I gots to hear Martha sing the national anthem this afternoon.
    
    I'm not so sure about that Mike.  I'll take it of Detriot(tm) gets
    past Chicago, but I'd be surprised. Chicago is pumped and it will
    tough with the little injuries here and there.   You can't just
    play Jordan rules anymore.  But, it was encouraging that once they
    got their legs under them after Aguirre kept them for an complete
    embarrassment in the first quarter, that they played them even, despite
    the fouls... Tomorrow night is big...
    
    -Walt

 I didn't get to see much of yesterday's game but Chuck said the longer it
 went on the tougher he thought his team would be. Let's face it if they're 
 health they're deeper than Chicago and the better defensive team. It'll
 probably be 7 games but it will still be Detroit standing at the end.

 mike  

    
    The Jordan rules seemed to work pretty well yesterday.  13 pts at
    half time, 13 pts going into the 4th quarter.  Now the Pistons need
    to work on defensive rebounding.  To many 2nd shot opportunities by
    the Bulls.  Also, Pippen woke up in the 3rd quarter.  I think he had
    12 pts.  Good physical game but the Pistons looked real tired in the
    4th.
    
    \pjb

    The Pistons Starting 5 scored 37 points.    And Chicago won by 11.
    If any of the Pistons starters get hot, the Bulls could be in trouble.
    
    The officiating was very, very bad yesterday.  
    
    I think Mike Childs talked about 3 seconds last week.  Horace Grant
    could have been called at least 2 dozen times yesterday.  Amazing.
    
    JD

Only the princess scored in double figures for the 'riot starters yesterday and
he only scored 11 (if I heard correctly).

That's some pretty piss poor shooting.....


metz

They started off the sma way against the Celts. They shot 38% in the 
first game and around the same mark in the second. Then they got hot.



Steve

      Way to go Bulls,  I noticed this file was a bit quite.  The poor
    sports got swept in 4.
    
      I hope the Blaizers can come back over LA, this would make a great
    series.
    
      It don't matter now though.
    
    	Tim

Glad to see the Pistons display the same amount of class in losing 
as they've always shown -- none.  From top to bottom, the Piston
organization is scum.  It will be nice to watch real bball in
the finals this year instead of the hockey-ball style of play
Detroit embraces.  

Laker_Ken

     <<< Note 72.61 by COMET::JACKSONTA "You forgot the Violin again!!" >>>
                                   -< Ha Ha >-

>      I noticed this file was a bit quite. 
    
    A bit quite what?  If you mean 'quiet', yeah, it's about as quiet as
    Monday mornings in the Donk note after Elway takes the pipe.
    
    Mark.
    
    

    re .62
    
    Laker_Ken, the Pistons didn't show a lot of class in losing (Rodman in
    particluar), but the Bulls sure could have used a few lessons from
    Emily Post themselves. Even Jordan made a few mealy-mouthed replys
    before Game 4 that will be hung from Piston chalkboards for a few years ...
    
    Dr Three_outta_Five-Peat

The Pistons kept the TEAM together by unamiously walking off the court. I 
expect that Daly is gone, to win the gold for the USA in 92 and they will groom 
a new coach next season with a hungry team. 

With Lambeer and Budda "Edwards" getting on in years. They should trade Aguire
or VJ maybe Dumars and try to get a new goon for the middle. 

Jeff  

    Just catching up in this note.  (Sorry I wasn't in here, I was busy
    congratulating Air_Brooks in his note... something like work gets in
    the way sometimes, and personally, I saw no need to talk about the
    same stuff in this topic and the NBA topic...If it's too quiet (or
    as some like to say, quite), check that one out. Didn't think it was high
    priority from Jan to May when there were 2 replies in here, where were
    ya then?)
    
    re Tessier:  Good to see that someone who puts in such classy notes as
    yourself is qualified to determined who is and isn't classy.  Next time
    I'll call all the Celtics and Hawks scum when they lose... guess I got
    a little confused.  
    
    As said earlier by myself, the Bulls deserved to win.  I think the refs
    were out to clean up the game a little and called some fouls based on
    reputation instead of real play, but bottom line is the Bulls deserved
    the win in each game. (I'm assuming the did in game 4.)  Can't sounds
    like the Pistons embarassed themselves, but with some of the comments
    that have come out from both sides, I'm not all that surprised. Sort of
    like what Buddy Ryan and Jerry Glanville have done in the past.  Not
    really proud of it, but you have to talk to them.  
    
    Good luck to whoever's in the finals.   I've been saying a
    Bulls-Blazers final all along, we'll see if that happens... 
    
    

Re. 

>  Next time I'll call all the Celtics and Hawks scum when they lose... 
>  guess I got a little confused.  

Yes, apparently you did get confused.  There's nothing wrong with
losing, and a team should not be criticized for that.  What is 
offensive to me and a lot of basketball fans is the way the Pistons
conducted themselves when it became apparent that they were about
to get swept.  In what way is this analogous to the Celtics and
Hawks?  

    
    Besides, isn't Mr. Tessier a Laker fan? Why oh Why are innocent
    Celtic fans drawn into the fray at the drop of a sneaker?
    
    
    
    Steve

    Well, I can't comment on Atlanta, but I have heard all the talk on the
    sport shows on the radio claiming the Celts were wronged by the refs,
    how Detroit's didn't deserve to win the way they did, etc... point
    is.  Detroit outplayed Boston, they deserved to win.  Don't know how
    the Celts fans would have reacted completely because game 6 was in
    Detroit.  I would assume they would behave better, but die hard fans
    aren't going to be as gracious in losing a big game at the time they
    lose.  Couple of days later, people calm down.  Not saying those people
    are in the right, just assuming that a couple of drunks started a cheer
    and you shouldn't slam a whole group for a couple of numb nuts...  I'll
    call Celts and Hawks fans scum, is that better?  I think it's all a
    crock that I don't really have time to worry about anyway...

 � ... innocent Celtic fans ...
 
 Now *THERE* is an oxymoron for you.
 
 Bob Hunt

Walt, I never said a thing about the Pistons fans; I was talking
about the behavior of the Pistons' players.  So, how is the way
the Atlanta and Boston players reacted in defeat comparable to
the pitiful performance displayed by the Pistons?  

    No, if I recall, you mentioned not the players, but the whole
    organization.  I heard Daly congratulated the Bulls, as did Salley.
    Hastings wasn't happy about it, and Rodman apologized.  Daly gets
    to coach the Olympic team, so some people don't seem to think he's
    scum.  Don't really see how the owners, GM, etc... all fall into
    the category because the players were crass.  Never said they did
    the right thing, did I?  The Hawks and Celts didn't do anything
    wrong, but I don't come off being Mr Ethical either.  Whatever...
    

    
Walt,
    
    I don't know what your problem is.  Following is an example of how you
    should act, by someone who obviously knows who has class and who
    doesn't.  Maybe if you weren't a fan of a team that represents an
    organization that is scum "from top to bottom,"  you'd understand
    things better.  Let me spell it out ofr you-- everyone associated with
    the Pistons is scum-- that means EVERY player, ALL the coaches, EVERYONE
    in upper management, and ALL of the supporting cast, including ALL
    the people who do the menial tasks such as selling tickets, act as
    ushers and sweep the floor.  Can't you understand that?  Boy you guys
    with no class must be thick or something.
    
    If you want further directions on what constitutes class and what
    doesn't, I'm sure Mr. Tessier will be more than happy to give you some
    advanced lessons.
    
    
           <<< CAM::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS_91.NOTE;1 >>>
               -< CAM::SPORTS -- Digital's Daily Sports Tabloid >-
================================================================================
Note 72.62               Official Detroit Pistons topic                 62 of 74
LIMPID::TESSIER                                       7 lines  29-MAY-1991 13:11
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glad to see the Pistons display the same amount of class in losing 
as they've always shown -- none.  From top to bottom, the Piston
organization is scum.  It will be nice to watch real bball in
the finals this year instead of the hockey-ball style of play
Detroit embraces.  

Laker_Ken
                        

    
    
    
Ken
    
    To refresh your memory, the following note of yours clearly states that
    you think the whole Detroit organization, from top to bottom is scum.
    
    Anyone who thinks Isiah Thomas, Joe Dumars, Vinnie J, Salley, Gerald
    Henderson, etc are scum, doesn't seem to be looking at things very
    objectively.  
    
    re:  ALl
    
    What's the big thing with the Go La chant?  Big deal.  So it slams
    Chicago.  Big Deal.  The Beat LA chant slammed LA.  No difference when
    talking about class, in my book.   Would the Chant GO Chicago really
    have been sincere?  No.  So at least the Detroit fans were being
    honest.  Of course, the Chicago fans who jeer and cheer are extremely
    classy....
    
    Too much being made of that.  Who really cares?
    
    JD
               <<< CAM::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS_91.NOTE;1 >>>
               -< CAM::SPORTS -- Digital's Daily Sports Tabloid >-
================================================================================
Note 72.62               Official Detroit Pistons topic                 62 of 75
LIMPID::TESSIER                                       7 lines  29-MAY-1991 13:11
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glad to see the Pistons display the same amount of class in losing 
as they've always shown -- none.  From top to bottom, the Piston
organization is scum.  It will be nice to watch real bball in
the finals this year instead of the hockey-ball style of play
Detroit embraces.  

Laker_Ken

That's right, I said the organization, and the last time I checked,
the fans were not part of the Pistons organization.  Daly is to 
blame for encouraging the type of cheapshot play that the Pistons
have thrived on for the past several years, and the front office
folks are at fault for giving their approval of this type of play.
Certainly, if we were talking about a one-time incident, then we
could blame nobody beyond the players involved.  But this type of
nonsense is part and parcel of the Pistons' philosophy of how the
game should be played.  

    And Ken, 
    
    As I've said, one person's cheap shot is another persons aggressive
    defense.  I've yet to see anything over and above what many other
    players and teams do employed by the Pistons.  Charles Barkley bangs
    and pushes and hacks - but he's not cheap.  John Salley does it, and
    he's cheap.  Michael Cooper used to be 'aggressive' - Dennis Rodman is
    cheap.  Kevin McHale does the right thing when he takes Kurt Rambis
    head off - James Worthy does the right thing when he shoves I think DJ
    or AInge into the stanchon - Will Purdue does the right thing when he
    THROWS Isiah into the stanchon - BUT, Ralph Sampson is a sissy and a
    cheap shot artist for taking on a smaller player, and Dennis ROdman is
    cheap for pushing Rodman.  
    
    The Pistons played old time hoops - maybe not a lot of slammajamma -
    but a blue collar game - the type made famous by the old Washington
    Bullets, 76ers and Celtics and Knicks.   Yep, some of the stuff they do
    could be called cheap - but too many folks have become blinded by the
    whinings of guys like Pippen and Jordan to see anything but cheapness.
    
    Funny how Dennis Rodman wins Defensive Player of the Year - lauded for
    good, tough defense, great hustle and work ethic by players and fans
    and coaches - but thanks to whining by Michael and Phil and Scottie -
    his game all of a sudden is an afront to Western Civilization.   
    
    Its funny that in order to win, teams have changed styles to be more
    physical - including the Lakers and Blazers.  Hoops is a contact sport.
    
    Some folks seem to want to see ballet, complete with leaps and spins -
    instead of hoops.  Bill Laimbeer hacks a guy and is vilified.  Michael
    Jordan, as clearly shown in replay, rakes James Edwards' arm, steals
    the ball and heads down court - that's a 'great' defensive play
    according to the announcers.
    
    I've seen Sam Perkins, AC Green and Vlade Divac give out some real
    physical fouls and play this year.  
    
    JD

I agree with {SHUDDER!}  Laker_Ken... up to a point...

It WILL be nice to see some 'real b-ball" in the finals, instead of the
'street hockey' made famous by the Pi**ed-ons in recent years...

... Just like it was nice when the Canadiens, and later the Oilers, showed
how hockey could be played -- with skating, passing and teamwork -- instead
of the Big Bad intimidation tactics of the Bruins/Flyers heyday...

Guys, there is a vast diff'rence (no pun intended?) between tough defense
and bar-brawling -- the former has limits, and is done with the intention of
denying a player the ball/puck/whatever, and is taken as 'part of the game';
the latter has no limits, is intended to injure or scare the other guy out
of the game, and should be met with fines/suspension/banning when it is
encountered.

As for me, I'd rather watch a flying 360 that scores a hoop than a flying
mare that throws somebody into the third row...

- Steve, a lifelong Celtics fan..

    Fans?  Organization? Players?  Which is it?  Why not the whole town? The
    state?  No, can't be the state, Earvin's from Lansing... but that's the
    capital of the state, must come from there... He went to MSU too...
    Must be something in there...
    
                      <<< Note 72.73 by LIMPID::TESSIER >>>

Walt, I never said a thing about the Pistons fans; I was talking
about the behavior of the Pistons' players.  So, how is the way
the Atlanta and Boston players reacted in defeat comparable to
the pitiful performance displayed by the Pistons?  
    

    Hows the Water in here...Ohhh Coooollleedd..  Well Im a Bulls fan
    I dont see any difference with the pistons this year compared to
    the last few they played the same way as always.  The problem is
    that one ref (or set of refs) will let the pistons hack, scratch
    hammer and pound the other teams all night long and theyve been letting
    the pistons do this for several years.  Now I dont think its whinning
    when Phil Jackson and Michael Jordan remind the refs the when Rodman
    Pushed Pippen to the court that its a foul.  The play where Purdue
    threw
    Isahia into the post, both players had there hands on the ball and
    purdue was trying to get the ball away.  If that particular play was
    reversed and it was lambrain throwing paxson detroit fans would be
    saying it was perfectly legal..And you know what theyd be right because
    there was no foul on that play.  Chicago Outrebounded, outshot, out
    hustled and out played the pistons plane and simple.  The only problem
    is the Pistons where not man enough to except defeat like a SPORTSMAN
    I dont see how anyone who reacts this way to losing can be considered
    a role model...I wouldnt want a kid of mine lookin up to someone who
    cries, complains and quits when there losing, but hey if thats how you
    want your kids to react to losing so be it.  Rodman was fined a messaly
    5K big deal, now if the pistons had the atletic ability and bball
    talent to have won a game, should rodman have sat out game 5...???
    
    Well whinning in this notes file will not accomplish much, hopefully
    the NBA will once again become basketball where the team with the most
    B-Ball talant and not wrestling talent will again win championships.
    
    GO BULLS !!!!!!!!!!1					M_AIR_B

Re. 

>   Fans?  Organization? Players?  Which is it?  Why not the whole town? The
>   state?  No, can't be the state, Earvin's from Lansing... but that's the
>   capital of the state, must come from there... He went to MSU too...
>   Must be something in there...

Cute, but all you've done is avoid the issue by bringing up fans,
Hawks, Celtics (still trying to figure out how you managed to get
these poor teams into the discussion), ushers, ball balls, and anything
else except the Pistons.  Can't blame you, though.  If my team put on
such a gutless display as the Pistons did Monday, I'd want to divert
attention from it too.

  

    You Brooks - Purdue threw Isiah into the Stanchon - AFTER the whistle
    had blown - it was excessive, and Purdue even took a few steps toward
    Isiah after it happened.  Geez - you really do have blinders on.  It
    was flagrant - it could have really hurt Isiah - and to make it worse -
    Purdue is almost a foot taller and I'd guess 50-75 pounds heavier. 
    Real TOUGH guy. 
    
    So - Mr. Brooks, I'll ask again - if Michael Jordan rakes his arms over
    the forearms of James Edwards while making a steal - is it a foul?   Or
    is it not, because Jordan does it?
    
    
    This is fruitless.  Let the blind see what they want.  Detroit is evil
    - until another team beats Chicago or whoever - then that team will be
    evil....
    
    JD

      See what 1 reply will do?
    
      I wouldn't go so far to say the Pistons org is scum,  but I don't
    like the way they play ball.  Cheap shots are common place for this
    team.
    
      I think the Pistons lost their intimidation factor in game 1.  Look
    at how Jordan was mouthing off to everyone and then taking the ball
    right at them.
    
      Before (last 2-3 years), the Pistons would be the ones mouthing and
    doing anything else they could (injuring Jordan on flagrant fouls) to
    win the game.
    
      The Piston players didn't like to see someone beat them at their own
    game.
    
      All this is just my opinion of course!
    
    	Tim

    This is rich.  I'm getting chuckles.  Now we have the 5-man foul - and
    teh "fact" that the rest of the league hates the Pistons.
    
    Lets see - it IS well documented that lots of folks don't like Bill
    Laimbeer.  I'll give you him for the "rest of the league" remark.
    
    Rodman?  Most of the problems I've read and heard with Rodman resulted
    from his 'hot dogging' stuff he did after scoring - and he used to do
    it more when a rookie and 2nd year man.  Except for the Bulls, I
    haven't read nor heard a lot about him cheap shotting.  Not even by the
    Lakers nor the Blazers in the finals.  Must have missed the 'rest of
    the league' stuff.
    
    Joe Dumars - lets see - the guy is regarded as a class act, a clutch
    player, and a great defender by the rest of the league - at least from
    all I've ever heard or read.  Didn't realize the rest of the league
    hated him.
    
    Isiah Thomas - biggest bruhaha with Thomas was the Bird/Rodman/Thomas
    problems about 4 years ago.  Other than that, I'ver read and heard that
    Isiah was a leader, a good ballplayer, and pretty classy.  His guts can
    never be questioned.  Didn't realize he was hated by the rest of the
    league, nor that he was a cheap shot artist, or 1/5 of the dreaded
    5-man foul crowd.
    
    John Salley - considered, wit Mychal Thompson of the Lakers, to be one
    of the best interviews, and funniest guys in the league.  Oh, wait - I
    forgot, he's hated by everyone in the league.
    
    James Edwards - only derogatory stuff I ever remember about James was
    his 'Moneybags' moniker given to him while with Cleveland, and
    accusations that he didn't put out all he could effort wise.  But now I
    find out he's hated by everyone in the league.
    
    Vinnie Johnson - the Microwave.  Haven't read bad things about him
    either.  Thought he was well respected by his competitors, opposing
    coaches, broadcasters, etc..  But he's also hated by everyone in the
    league.
    
    Gerald Henderson - Only remember his steal vs. the Lakers when with the
    Celts, and some other hilights.  Didn't realize he was a villian.
    
    Treee Rollins - oh yeah, the guy bit Danny Ainge's finger - so he
    deserves to be universally hated (the fact that he was with Atlanta
    when he did it makes no difference - he drove a car MADE in Detroit -
    guilt by association...)
    
    Scot Hastings - yep - he's been generally on the most hated lists
    around the leagues for YEARS now....
    
    Chuck Daly - another hated villian.  Hated so much that he's the next
    Olympic coach - no doubt the US is hoping Chuck will have his players
    (which will be pro players) bring blackjacks and Uzi's on the court -
    in order to wipe out the opposition.
    
    I admit I don't remembe the other assistant coaches names, and I
    probably forgot someone fromthe team.
    
    what a rogue's gallery.  What S-C-U-M!!!!!  Child molesters,
    date-rapers, serial killers all.  None have any basketball talent. 
    They GANG-FOUL for ChrispSakes!!!!  They Cheat!!!!  They Maim!!! Theyu
    Rape, Pillage and Plunder!!!!!!!!  They are probably inarticulate!!!
    
    Write Bad Checks!!!! Drive FAST!!!!  Don't use TURN SIGNALS!!!!!
    
    Ban them NOW!~!!!  Strip them of there Champeenship rings!! Take the
    franchise AWAY RIGHT THIS MINUTE!!!!
    
    Disperse the team - oh yeah, I forgot - everyone HATES the players - so
    no one would take the players!!  The Bulls wouldn't want Joe Dumars if
    available - nor would the Lakers, Knicks, Sixers or Celtics!!!!
    
    Walt ASHE - calling WALT ASHE!!!  Give it up WALT - dont become SCUM _
    root for another TEAM!
    
    
    Sincerely,
    
    JD
    
    PS:  Glenn, I DID not FAX this to ESPN  ;-)

    Hawks - I remember at least one altercation in that series.
    Celtics - I'm sure they and the Pistons are out drinking side
    by side right now... My point originally was I didn't say "Gee,
    I'm so glad those guys lost, they're all scum."  That was the
    point.  How's that?  Kicking when they're down is real tough...
    
    Ushers, ball balls (what's that?):  You said the whole organization,
    or was it someone else... I forget... is the players?  The coach?
    The receptionist?  The guy picking up the trash?  The guy who changed
    the name from One Champeenship Dr. to Two Champeenship Drive?  Who?
    You backed down from the organization to the players.  Whats the
    next plea bargain for?  Think Scott Hastings is scum?  Think John
    Salley is?  Dumars, what a thug... I bet if Lance Blanks was off the
    injured list, he'd be one too, right?
    
    Sorry if I root for a team of hard-working guys, from a blue collar
    city, who wear red, white and blue, and do what the have to to get to
    the top... I thought I lived in America.  In fact, I hope you're not
    criticizing the US of A, Mr. "Our centers aren't even from this
    country..."... Well, I'm not going to sit here and listen to someone
    bad mouth the United States of America... Gentleman, are ya with me?
    
    (Hummming the Star Spangled Banner on my way out...)
    
    -Otter, or was it Hoover, who was it?
    

    This is for Air, and Laker_ken, and the rest:
    
    I only have 2 verses, but more can easily be made up - to be
    sung to the tune of "Windy"  (Everyone knows its Windy...)
    
    "Who's pushing Scottie into the stands now?
     Who's assinating Mr. Gan-diiii?
     Who's should be sitting on death row now?
     Everyone knows its Rodman
     And Rodman has scarey eyes
     And Rodman uses railroad ties
     And Rodman uses elec-tric prodes
     To kill his opponent (to kill his opponent)"
    
    "Who's flopping around under the basket?
     Who's putting poison in the kool-aid?
     Who's sitting up in the TExas Tower??
     Everyone knows its Laim-beer
     And Laimbeer has weepy eyes
     And Laimbeer used shuddering thighs
     ANd Laimbeer uses Ginzu Knives
     To maim opponents, (to maim opponents)"
    
    "Who dresses like a cheap hood?
     Who teaches S&M in the neighborhood?
     Who packs an uzi under his pompedour?
     Everyone knows its Daly
     And Daly has dishonest eyes
     ANd Daly throws mud pies
     And Daly uses the weed weasel
     To injure other coaches (injure other coaches...)"
    
    And as you can see, in ture Detriot (TM) fashion, I lied - I actually
    had THREE verses!!  String me up by my heels!
    
    JD

    Re. .88 --
    
    Look, Walt, I've been consistent in my replies on this issue.  I said
    the organization, figuring that anyone who was interested in seriously
    discussing the issue would know that I meant people who had a direct
    affect on determining the type of play on the court.  Sorry if you or
    JD couldn't quite comprehend that I wasn't talking about Detroit fans,
    Piston ball balls, ushers, or other behind the scenes people.
    
    Anyway, when I got home tonight, I read Peter Vescey's column from
    today's paper, and it sums up exactly my feelings on this group of
    Pistons.
    
    Reprinted without permission:
    
    Admittedly my sight lines weren't as good as the refereeing crew which
    mysteriously didn't notice Dennis Rodman sending Scottie Pippen
    sprawling into the end zone with a vicious, two-handed blindside in
    Game 4.
    
    Nonetheless, as far as I could see perched in front of my 21-inch TV
    screen, the defending champion Pistons conducted themselves no
    differently while being vanquished four games in a row by the Bulls for
    the Eastern Conference title than they did in stalking two crowns.
    
    In fact, for five seasons now, averaging about 110 games per, Pistons
    opponents have been conspicuously mistreated, mangled, mocked and
    maligned by the team's more glamorous cheapshot artists, regardless of
    whether the team was in the business that season of promoting its Bad
    Boy image.   
    
    Management (and that's where the attitude starts, make no mistake about
    that, right at the top with GM Jack McCloskey and coach Chuck Daly)
    decided long ago the team would play with a vengeance.  The players
    would sacrifice their bodies and be just as tough mentally to win at
    all costs.  And if that meant committing heinous acts, no problem. 
    Volunteers, commanded by leaders Isiah Thomas and Bill Laimbeer, were
    everywhere.
    
    So were their splattered victims.  If you weren't on their side during
    this period, you were the enemy, outsiders who couldn't be trusted,
    and, inevitably would be busted.  Sooner or later, everyone got a taste
    of their flagrant elbows, caveman force and violent behavior.
    
    They beat you, and they beat you up, and nobody in the NBA,
    particularly a star like Michael Jordan who always has seemed to get
    the brunt of it, liked it one bit.  But only when the Bad Boys abused
    somebody like His Highness, only when they overstepped even their
    out-of-bounds mark, did anybody really bitterly complain; only then was
    something done about it, in terms of fines, suspensions or both.
    
    Why?  Because the Pistons won, and, as we all know, you can get away
    with all sorts of terror tactics and techniques, in and out of sports,
    in the name of victory.
    
    Because the Pistons won, their special dispensation of intimidating
    mayhem gradually gained a mystique about it, a heavy glorification,
    actually.  Because they won, earning three consecutive trips to the
    Finals, the league office was all but forced to back off a few paces. 
    It seemed as if VP of Violence Rod Thorn almost had to tolerate their
    antics, and only was able to pounce on it when it became blatantly
    reprehensible.  Because they won, their contemptuous reputation
    suddenly changed almost to an awestruck quality in the minds of fans,
    and the works of many in the media.
    
    Consequently, to all the critics who are now whimpering and whining
    about the Pistons' unsportsmanlike behavior (and their postseries
    remarks) against the Bulls, if you weren't protesting while they were
    chug-a-lugging champagne the past couple years, then it's too late, you
    forfeited your right to do so long ago.
    
    Let's be up front and impersonal about this:  Being down and dirty,
    ungracious and arrogant, are not afflictions Laimbeer, Thomas and
    Dennis Rodman (despite his written apology to Pippen) contracted
    without warning.  They are what they are, and they've been what they've
    been, and whether you appreciate or depreciate it, they've maintained
    their mangy image at the line of scrimmage.
    
    If nothing else, give the Pistons credit for not misrepresenting
    themselves.  They've remained true to their mission and their
    reflection.  Win a title, or get swept in a series, they've handled
    themselves the same way  -- as a crass act.
    

    re -1
    
    So KEn, I take it you are one of the "critics who are  now
    wimpering and whining..."    Glad you admit it in your introduction. 
    It's also says a lot that neither you nor Mr. Vecsey could see no
    difference in the conduct of this year's Detroit team and the two
    previous years.  If you can't tell the difference between a team
    winning and losing, that's quite a comment on your understanding of the
    game.

 JD you're still the master of songs....hahaha truly beautifully...

    Isahia Purdue incident....If the whistle had already blown then why
    was the princess still attempting to RRIIPP the ball from purdues
    hands, was this some attempt on his part to be more masculine, if so
    it didnt work.  Like I said before if John Paxson was attempting to
    rip the ball from Lambrain's hands and lambrain mearly pushed the ball
    at him NO DETROIT FAN or ANTI_BULLS fan would have complained or
    considered it a foul.  Ive rewatched it and the whistle did blow and
    the Princess was strugglin for the ball...PURDUE mearly gave it to him
    
    Now for the Jordan RAKE of the arm on Edwards, I rewatched it and
    rewatched (Only had 2 angles the original and the replay, neither were
    great).  The initial contact is with the ball (ALL BALL) as edwards
    follows thru with his acting attempt to get a foul called Jordan does
    make contact (alot of contact) with edwards arm...AGAIN if you REWATCH
    the tape (Slow-Mo) you will see CONTACT WITH ALL BALL, BALL GOING FREE
    and then CONTACT WITH EDWARDS arm.  Not exactly sure if this is a foul
    or not but the original steal IS CLEAN, If this was the average player
    doing the same steal, yes it may have been called a foul because
    edwards did a good acting job.  But with 2 Good-Great players the refs
    looked past the acting and gave jordan the benefit of the doubt.  DO
    I agree with this treatment...No but it happens on every team every
    game and has been happening for many, many, many years and will
    continue to happen.  There are proberbly 2 miss calls for every call
    made and out of every call make about 33% are bad calls....this is
    life.   If you play a very aggressive game year after year after year
    and then you start getting caugth doing what youve been getting away
    with for years...Do you know what happens
    
    
    
    	You Get Swept 4 in a Row by a much Better Basketball team
    	with More skill and talant.
    
    Bulls VS Lakers Game 1 Sunday June 2nd 3:00pm (est) at Chicago
    
    							M_Air_Brooks

    Actually, JD, I agree totally with your analysis of the Pistons
    players. And I enjoyed your song, too.
    
    The whinning and preferential treatment surrounding players like
    Jordan, Magic, Bird, McHale, Laimbeer is disgusting. I remember hearing
    one of the things Red Auerbach said some years ago about how distraught
    he was that so many players felt they could drive the lane and not
    expect to get hacked or pasted. Red feels that you have to send a
    message to the other team and the message is, come into my lane at
    your own risk.
    
    Players like Wes Unseld, Paul Silas, Chet Walker all ensured that their
    boards would be accessed at high risk. Other players knew this and
    respected it. It was called hard nosed basketball.
    
    Now, with the prima donna superstars, Larry goes to the line if someone
    breaths on him...ditto Magic and Jordan.
    
    And Laker_Ken and Air Brooks call Piston basketball thuggery. Well,
    guys, the Pistons are, as JD said, a blue-collar team that plays hard
    noded basketball. I despise Laimbeer's antics but I admire the tenacity
    and effectiveness of the team and even begrudgingly admire Laimbeer's
    sacrifices for the team concept.
    
    Rich
    

Re. 

>  So KEn, I take it you are one of the "critics who are  now
>  wimpering and whining..." 

No, I've been complaining about the Pistons's style of play for
several years now.  With the above statement, Vescey was clearly
talking about people in the media who have said nary a negative
word about the Pistons behavior while they were winning, and 
then acted completely surprised by the Pistons' disgraceful,
but keeping in character, tactics in this series.

    
    Thank God JD doesn't exercise this much restraint in dealing with the
    One True Satan, Roger Clemens!
    
    glenn
    

    One thing I'll say - and Hawk, hold onto your jock - the Celtics fans
    BY FAR have been the most gracious, and have shown the most class in
    their comments about Detroit.  Most Celtic fans (Mike C. comes to mind
    immediately) have admitted that Detroit was a good ball club, and have
    rooted for them in the last two finals.
    
    But then we have the alledged keepers of class, Laker Ken and Air
    Brooks the two charter presidents.  They've watched, in Laker Ken's
    case, their favorite team get swept by Detroit in the finals, and
    watched Detroit repeat as champions - equalling what the Lakers ahd
    done a few seasons before.  And of course, we had whining and excuses
    about injuries when detroit did beat them.  ANd we have Michael Air
    Brooks - who is both a Celtic and Bulls fan.  He's watched Detroit beat
    his Bulls for 3 straight years.  But unlike Walt Ashe and the few other
    Pistons fans - who have said Chicago was the better team this year, Mr.
    Brooks has simply said Detroit cheated their way past the BUlls the
    last 3 years.
    
    Funny how fickle class is.  I'm a Knick fan from way back, and Phil
    Action Jackson was always one of my favorites.  Funny how classy Phil
    is now.  He admitted that he started baiting the refs over a year ago,
    and in his comments, seemed to imply that yes, Detroit only beat them
    in the past due to cheating.  That's real classy Phil.  Especially from
    a guy who played like Phil Jackson did - he was a first class HACK.  He
    had the 'aggressive team player' label - heck, old Phil even engaged in
    fisticuffs on occassion - I remember one with I believe Steve Kuberski
    of the Celtics, and another with I think Tom Boerwinkle of the Bulls.
    
    And Pat Riley - another coach I liked -  he's shown no class in his
    criticism of the team that beat him.  Where's the class in that?  Or is
    class only a one-way street?  
    
    Costas, Vescey and the rest were stumbling over themselves in praise of
    the 2-time defending champions.  IN fact, Vescey, who writes (or did
    write) for the NY Post (and covered the Knicks) wrote many columns
    praising Detroit and saying that the Knicks lacked the spirit and team
    play of the Pistons.  Funny how now that Detroit has lost, Peter has
    changed his tune.  And BTW, the Knicks still suck, Peter.   Vescey
    really wanted them to get one of the Pistons assistants as coach, in
    fact.
    
    Yeah, class.  The last two finals I've rooted for the Lakers and the
    Blazers against the Pistons.  But thanks to Air Brooks and Laker_ken, I
    really hope the Pistons come back with a vengence next year, and go to
    the finals.  For no other reason than I'd get to hear the great whine
    out of Chicago and LA.  
    
    We've had folks call Detroit classless - yet these folks have called
    teh Pistons SCUM - which is a real classy why to show 'sportsmanship'.
    
    We've had another who can't see straight due to Jordanaire blinders.
    
    Oh, and Air - you claim (falsely) that no one would be complaining if
    Laimberr 'purdued' Paxson - wrong - you'd be in here whining and crying
    about it - and the anti-Pistons cabal would be joining you.  ANd know,
    we find out that it was little ol' Isiah picking on Will Purdue. Boo
    HOO - ol' Will just isn't as strong as Isiah I guess.  As I've said -
    Rodman was wrong, and a suspension and fine was warranted.  Of that I
    have no doubt.  I also have no doubt that what Purdue did was wrong.
    
    Oh, and Air, Jordan hit Edwards arm - if say, Rodman had gotten all
    ball, then raked Jordan's arm - would it be a foul in your eyes? 
    Probably - you'd probably want Rodman to get castrated for it.
    
    
    Class - it is such a wonderfully subjective thing.  So let Bob Costas
    show his class with his snide remarks,  let Pat Riley and Phil Jackson
    show their class by whining and trying to deny the fact that the
    Pistons were a good team.  That's class alright.
    
    And again, I'll say it -- the Bulls and Lakers fans could learn
    something from Walt Ashe and most of the Celtics fans when it comes to
    being classy.
    
    JD

    To clairfy one thing - Phil Jackson, the ball player, would have fit in
    perfectly with today's Pistons.  But then again, that's how hoops was
    played back then, before the primadonnas took over.
    
    Re:  Rich Brake - imagine what Nate Thurmond or Wes Unseld would have
    done to a guy like Jordan after a show-boating slam.  Next time down
    the lane, Michael would be ass-over-tea-kettle and forced to count his
    teeth and limbs.   Oh, and Phil Jackson would have undercut him...
    
    JD

    
    JD, you talk like the NBA of old was like Rollball or the WWF or 
    somin'! Cripes it twernt that bad! One thing that is different though,
    is the players. Years ago you didn't see all of this cry baby crud
    you see today, and all these dives players are taking to draw fouls
    is ludicrous. The game has changed as well, there was far more
    perimeter play than the game of today. This I feel has alot to do 
    with the banging and cheap shotting. Also, to me the players seemed
    to have more maturity(with the exception of Maurice Lucas!). You
    didn't see any finger waving, hot-dogging and temper tantrums
    that are so prevelant in today's game . Sure the game was rugged but 
    to me the players showed far and away more sportsmanship.
    
    
    
    
    Steve

    PPPLLLEEAASSEE...I never called the detroit organization classless
    But if you dont think there one of the Most Agressive teams in BBall
    today you have to learn to turn the TV on before watching a game :-)
    As far as the bulls being cheeted the last 3 seasons this is just a
    clever why to get some of you less then calm people all riled up, I
    sit here in my office thinking of things to say to ruffle up your
    feathers and many others and it always works...were talking like major
    league predictable....As far as the pistons, yes im a basher and I
    dont care for ther brand of bball but if the league and refs are going
    to let them get away with it, then so be it...But let the other teams
    get away with it once in awile as well.... As far as the last 3 years
    the first 2 times the Pistons beat the bulls they also happend to be
    the better team, as a matter of fact they were a better team then
    the celtics there year they lost to them in the eastern finals, they
    lost by lack or experienc and nothing less, they were the better bball
    team.  The yeat the lakers beat detroit in the finals, again that was
    won on pure lack of experience....But last year when the Pistons beat
    the bulls (7 games) I truly believe the bulls were the better team and
    let the Pistons agressive style of play (that was allowed by the refs)
    take them out of there game....This year the BEST TEAM WON PURE AND 
    SIMPLE...On to LA LA Land...Oh and by no means think that this will be
    the last time I ruffle your feathers....I will bait and hook you agian
    no Doubt about it....:-) :-) :-) :-) etc, etc, etc...
    
    							M_Air_Brooks

    Air,
    
    Don't drown in your own delusions.  I"m not upset - nor do you 'bait'
    me at all.  It's hard enough trying to read one of your stream of
    conciousness notes anyway.  
    
    I don't think about this notesfile at all in my office - unless I'm in
    the notesfile.  So don't flatter yourself.  
    
    Just enjoy pointing out your inconsitencies - especially when talking
    about your Bulls (or is it your Celtics...)
    
    Ta-ta
    
    JD

    Ya Right Whatever...and to many back where someone ?'s the loyalty
    of fans...Not sure who they were pointing to but Ive been an active
    bulls fan for about 5 years..Of course Ive only been an active noter
    for about 2-3 but if you look in the CHICAGO notes file a few years
    back I started a bulls note in there, of course there were about 3 or
    4 active people.  Then move on to sports and the celts notes file.
    Im proberbly one of very few people who actually bet on and won money
    when the BUlls knocked out cleveland in 5...Talk about your long shots.
    I try not to be inconsistent in my notes, I dont always have time to
    reread every note ive ever entered...I may say something or side with
    someone just for fun and not remember :-) Oh well whatever..But I
    have to bask in the glory this year, my bulls have come closer and
    closer each year and now have a chance....I must take advantage of it
    becasue like most teams, one injury can change it all and the bulls
    could be middle of the pack for the next 25 years ....Heres to Jordan
    staying healty and playing for the next 5 seasons (as well as the team
    hanging onto pippen and grant).
    
    ?? When's the Actually NBA draft and is the entire schedule for the
    finals out yet ?? 
    							Air_B

Thats the LAST time I ever try to change the subject in this file.





Steve

    
    	Isiah's Smile Doesn't Mask True Attitude, Layden Says
    
    	Although he isn't exactly objective, Utah Jazz President Frank
    Layden is his usual outspoken self on the subject of Isiah Thomas'
    exclusion from the 1992 U. S. Olympic basketball team.
    	Layden considers Thomas' objectionas a dig at Jazz point guard John
    Stockton, who was selected to the team in what would have been Thomas'
    spot.  And Layden has had enough of it.
    	"John Stockton will deliver the ball," Layden told the Associated
    Press.  "That's what John Stockton does better than anyone, and that's
    what the [selection] committee was looking for.  I'm not sure they knew
    Isiah would do that.
    	"Is everybody afraid to say this to Isiah's face?  I don't know.
    But I'd tell him.  I'd say, `Because of your actions, nobody likes you. 
    We see through the smiles.  We see all through the baloney.  We don't
    want you on our team.'"
    	According to Layden, the refusal by Thomas and his Detroit
    teammates to congratulate the Chicago Bulls after last season's Eastern
    Conference finals played a part in the decision to keep Thomas off the
    Olympic team.
    	Said Layden: "Would he do something like that if the Russians beat
    us?   Would he embarrass the whole country?  That was a disgrace."
    
    	Add Olympics: Speaking of Detroit center Bill Laimbeer's threat of
    legal action because he wasn't given a chance to try out for the team,
    Layden said: "Laimbeer couldn't make the Czechoslovakian Olympic team. 
    In 9 million years, he couldn't make our Olympic team."
    
    	Last add Olympics: During the Boston Celtics' media day, Larry Bird
    was asked whether Thomas' cool relationship with Michael Jordan led to
    Thomas' exclusion from the team.
    	Said Bird: "I think that's a bunch of bull.  I don't think Michael
    has any say over who goes over and plays.  Isiah's just upset because
    he wasn't picked.  I can understand a guy being upset.  But there are a
    lot of great players on that team.  What can you do?"
    
    					[]
    
    	Larry Bird, when asked whether his 3-month-old son.  Connor Anthony
    Bird, had changed his life:  "It's made my life better.  Now I look
    forward to going home."
    
    					[]
    
    	The Forward Foursome Is Still Playing Through.
    
    	La Jolla-The gang's all here. . . still.  All four on the floor,
    not at once, but it would seem too much horsepower anyway.
    	The Clipper logjam at forward still exists with Charles Smith,
    Danny Manning, Ken Norman and Loy Vaught.  Norman, who lost his
    starting job to Manning last season and will be No. 2 again come the
    Nov. 1 season opener at Sacramento, spent much of his summer at home in
    suburban Chicago wondering if he would be traded.
    	He was ready for anything.
    	And he got nothing.
    	"Am I surprised?" he said in the first week of Clipper training
    camp.  "I wouldn't say I'm surprised to be back, but I thought someone
    along the front line would be moved.  As I've said before, we have four
    of the finest forwards in the league-Danny, Charles, Loy and myself.  I
    knew we were trying to deal for a point guard, and I thought one of us
    would go in the trade.  But I'm happy to be here and I look forward to
    the season."
    	Norman hasn't been a regular non-starter since early in his rookie
    season of 1987-88.  Now, even though his 17.4-point average was third
    on the team last season, he faces the prospect of constant sixth-man
    status.
    	Not to worry.  Just as Manning did a few seasons ago with Don
    Casey, Norman went to Coach Mike Schuler and said he would prefer to
    come off the bench, a conversation Schuler confirmed.
    	"Sure there's ego involved," Norman said.  "But the bottom line is
    winning.  People outside the team may talk about who took Ken Norman's
    spot, but the coach thought the move would help the team, so that's
    fine.  My role is the same thing as a starter or a reserve, to help the
    team win."
    
    
    					[]
    
    	Although the side never talked specific figures before he walked
    out of training camp Friday night, sources for both sides agree the
    one-year contract extension guard Doc Rivers wants is at about $4
    million.
    	The Clippers are not amused.  They are not so much against an extra
    season on a deal that still has four years to run, but at the right
    time, after they take care of Charles Smith and Olden Polynice.  And
    the $4 million is starting since Rivers, who will turn 30 Sunday,
    already is the third-highest paid player on the team for 1991-92 at
    $1.2 million, trailing only Danny Manning and Ron Harper.
    	Even if they wanted, the Clippers couldn't spread $4 million over
    two extra seasons instead of one because of a rule against extending a
    player's contract beyond the season of his 35th birthday.  That
    prevents avoiding the salary cap with pseudo-deferments for players
    nearing retirement.
    
    					[]
    
    	The news on Harper, in his first training camp in two years, is all
    good.  
    	Recent test have determined reconstructive surgery in January of
    1990 to be at 80-85% of its original strength, which indicates
    continued improvement during the off-season.  Equally encouraging is
    thet Harper has been cleared to play without a brace on the joint,
    though he will probably wear it at least to start the season.
    
    	Clipper Notes
    
    	Olden Polynice, who was born in Haiti and still has relatives
    there, has drawn a peace sign and the name of the Carribean country on
    his sneakers in protest of the coup there.  "Those are my roots," he
    said.  "That's my background.  I feel I have to show my feelings one
    way or another.  I play in the NBA and I get to be seen so maybe people
    will see the shoes and become aware what is happening there." 
    Polynice, who plans for a basketball for a basketball clinic next
    August in the capital city of Port-Au-Prince are on hold, moved with
    his family to New York City when he was 7 years old but retains dual
    citizenship.
    	In what could be an entire training camp without competition as his
    foot continues to recover from a summer stress fracture, Bo Kimble will
    be relegated to the likes of swimming, riding a stationary bicycle and
    a rowing machine to stay in shape. . . The Clippers, who have had
    occassional workouts at UCLA in the past, have scheduled 20 practices
    there this season.
    
    					[]
    
    	Atlanta Hawks resigned center Gary Leonard to a one-year contract.
    
    	Milwaukee Bucks signed forward Fred Roberts and guard Bobby Phills.
    
    
    
    
    from LA Times
    
    

    Why does everyone like Frank Layden.  Besides from having a big mouth
    and being fat, what is his claim to fame?  Leading Utah to losses in
    the playoffs?
    
    I was never impressed with him as a coach, and frankly, his act got
    tiring after about the second time I heard him speak.
    
    Boy, everyone is really done on Isiah, except for Dick Vitale and Al
    MaGuire, who both say he's still one of the best point guards in the
    game.  
    
    Isn't it amazing how if a guy doesn't smile, he's labelled as a
    'problem', and if a guy does smile, he's labelled as a 'problem'.
    
    On Laimbeer - in the interviews with Laimbeer, he has said that he
    knows he wouldn't make the team.  THat's not his issue.  His issue is
    that there should be tryouts just like their are for other sports.  No
    problem.  If Tom Chambers had said it, no one would have any problem.
    
    Has anyone taken a worse rap than Isiah has over the last few years?  
    Here's a guy that has provided this hoop fan would some incredible
    memories - from his "And a Child Shall Lead Them" days with Indiana,
    through his incredible duel with Bernard King inthe Pistons/Knicks
    series, to his amazing performance on Bum ankle vs. the Lakers in the
    champeenship series.   And what is he BLAMMED for:
    
    *  The Larr Bird incident - even though Larry Bird dismissed it, Celtic
    fans can't stop blamming Isiah (much like Ainge bit ROllins)
    
    *  Kissing Magic - a typical American homophobic reaction.  If people
    were just a little bit more secure in their manhood, these things
    wouldn't bother them.  It doesn't bother me.  Don't Europeans kiss as a
    form of greeting and friendship??
    
    *  Smiling - oh yes.  THe Cardinal sin.  Sports figures, especiall it
    Seems (in my observations) black sports figures, can't smile, or it is
    diagnosed as 'phoney' or worse.  Magic also gets railed on for smiling.
    Maybe they should just scowl like Ewing or Alonzo Mourning (even though
    that gets criticized, also...)
    
    *  Whining - like no one else does it.  Mchale does it.  Ainge does it.
    Magic does it.  Michael (gasp) does it, Scottie does it, Karl does it.
    It's a way of life.  But it all depends on what team you play for.
    
    
    *  The Olympics - well, I can see the disappointment that Isiah has. 
    After all, lest we forget, Isiah was slated to be the starting point
    guard for the 1980 Olympic team - a virtual lock on the GOLD.  However,
    the boycott came, and *poof*, there went his chances.  This is, in all
    probability, the last chance he'll ever get at playing for that gold
    that he was denied, due to political reasons.  And no, he's not the
    only player from the 1980 squad to have this happen (I can't really
    remember the rest of the team...) to.   And given that a few players on
    the dream team were less than enthused at being selected, I can see his
    disappointment.  His mistake was airing his views.
    
    *  The infamous Jordan freeze out.  This is another in the vein of
    "Ainge bites Rollins".  Poor Air. He whined that Isiah and Larry and
    the guys tried to freeze him out.  Over the years, it has turned into a
    total "let's blame Isiah" vendetta, with Air having his slate totally
    cleared.  This has been one of those 'burning issues' that the media
    resurrects whenever they are bored.  It was a non-issue when it
    happened, and it is still a non issue.  I just wish Air would come out
    and clear everything up (either give real proof, or simply say it
    should be forgotten - but he's never been that type of person....)
    
    So know we have fat Frank opening up his big trap, so that the media
    spot light can shine on his immense bulk for the few minutes he has
    between gallops to the Roadmaster Truck Stop's All-You-Can_eat-Buffet.
    
    JD

    Frank Layden is the NBA's answer to Tommy Las-orta-fat ... a big
    overrated (at least Lasorda can manage a team to a title), buffoon.
    
    Funny how nobody remembers the vendetta he had against Dantley in Utah,
    when AD held out, AND had the support of fans and players. 
    
    Mr Media was so jealous that he stripped AD of his team captainacy.
    
    But AD still got his money.
    
    JD hit it on the head, Isiah is a big target right now, and a easy one.
    He may not be a saint, but he's far from a scoundrel.
    
    And Layden had better remember that Isiah has two more rings (and who
    knows how many more big game performances) than John Stockton.
    
    BTW, if I had to pick a Piston, I'd take Joe Dumars ...

    When was the last time Thomas was voted to the All NBA first or second
    team?  Wasn't it Dumars who received the Playoff MVP?
    
    JD, you forgot a few other things Isahia is noted for.  How about those
    big chokes in the first couple of meetings with the Celts in the
    playoffs?

    What chokes, Mac?  The 'steal' by Bird?  Didn't Laimbeer throw that
    pass?
    
    Weren't the Celts favoured in those early playoff series?  How can an
    underdog 'choke'??
    
    Also, I'd take Dumars before Isiah - but Isiah isn't any slouch.
    
    Wasn't Isiah on the all-NBA team just a few years' ago??  
    
    JD

    No, Thomas throught the pass JD...

    Layden said what anybody with cajones would have said.  It had to be
    said, and I agree with him 100%!  Magic didn't even defend his "best 
    friend" when he had the chance to on national TV with Jordan at his side.
    
    Isiah is still one of the best point guards in the NBA.  One of a few
    pocket-sized-Magics that can take control of a game.  He's provided me
    with some great moments too.  Especially that pass he made to Bird in
    game 5 of the Eastern Conf. Finals that also earned an assist for Bird
    and the 2 point game winner for DJ.  Isiah is still a classless anus 
    though.
    
    As I said before, and others have said, Dumars is the best player on
    that team.
    
    Mike

 JD, I won't argue with you that Isiah is a great player but if you're only
 going to take two points guards then I say those two have to be Magic for
 his creative/desire/knowledge etc and Stockton for his consistancy and better
 team play. Also if they were to take a third point guard I'd take Hardeway
 over Isiah so by me estimation that leave Zeke as the 4th best point guard
 in the league.

 Now if we talk big games by indiviual it seems to me that the Pistons have
 a very mediocre record when Thomas tries to do it all while the Lakers'
 record with Magic doing it all is documented and I'll assume that the Jazz
 have a fine record when Stocton does it all...

    Mike -
    
    Why is what Layden said so true?  Layden has an interest in degrading
    Isiah while talking up his favorite player, John Stockton (who I like
    very much as a player...)  Celtic fans hate him cuz he plays for the
    Pistons.
    
    So, he threw the pass.  One mistake and he's vilified forever.  His
    performances in other games more than makes up for that mistake, IMO.
    
    So, since none of you KNOW Isiah personally, how do you know he's a
    classless anus?  
    
    So what if Magic didn't defend him in public?  What has that got to do
    with anything.  It isn't Magic's team to select (it's Gatorade's,
    Nike's and TV's) - so what good would it do?
    
    Larry Bird hasn't been the classiest person in the world, neither has
    Air, nor a lot of other guys.   
    
    I've always thought Isiah played the game with guts, determination and
    class.  He's given his all to the Pistons, and there's no doubt in my
    mind, or the minds of the Pistons' ownership that drafting and signing
    Isiah Thomas was the first step they took in turning around a franchise
    that was moribund.  
    
    Right now, Dumars is the best player on the Pistons, but Isiah was for
    years.  Just like Bird was the best player on the Celtics, but right
    now its Reggie Lews.
    
    I haven't seen a lot of Frankie Layden 'friends' jumping to echo
    Frankie's comments....
    
    In fact, you could take Layden;s comments about Isiah, and substitute
    "Frank Layden" for "Isiah" and have the same effect.  Anyone with hoop
    sense has seen through Frankie's smile and schmaltz by now...
    
    JD

    Mike Childs -
    
    I agree.  I take Stockton over Magic for pure point guard.  The
    selection process makes for a lot of second-guessing.  Even with
    tryouts, Isiah probably doesn't make the team - even though with his
    desire, he might just have a monster tryout session, while others might
    do 'walk throughs'.
    
    I've just marveled at the character assassination of Isiah, which
    started with Michael J.'s 'Freeze out' allegations and continued.
    
    He's no angel, Isiah isn't.  He isn't perfect.
    
    And now Frank Layden has spoken - hey Frank "Let he without sin cast
    the first stone..."
    
    JD

    Another knock on Thomas that JD forgot.  He was known for trying to do
    too much for the Pistons and take the game into his own hands during
    crunch time.  When he did so, he seldom delivered.  The committee
    selecting the Olympic TEAM may have taken this into account in the
    selection process as well.

    There are only 10 spots open to the nba star for the team...
    2 centers 
    2 small forwards
    2 power forwards
    2 shooting guards
    2 point guards
    2 point guards... Magic and Stockton....
    There is no way in HELL the Thomas is beter than the two picked...
    
    REK

    Mac -
    
    Acutally, Isiah has delivered, on numerous occasions.  Before the rest
    of the cast was assembled, Isiah was THE man - and the only reason why
    the Pistons were able to get as far as they could.  The Pistons grew up
    as a team, slowly advancing, year-by-year, to higher height, until they
    won back-to-back titles - something only one other point guard in the
    NBA can claim.
    
    I can cite numerous playoff times when Isiah delivered.  Ask a Portland
    fan about Game 1 of the finals a few years ago.  The Pistons were daid.
    In the 4th, Isiah took over the game.  
    
    He threw the pass to Bird, and he had a bad playoffs this year (heck,
    he had a bad year, especially with injuries...)
    
    I'd say he's been a clutch performer more often than not.  And despite
    being a mere mortal, he's delivered his team to the promised land only
    one less time that that certain Celtic deity.
    
    JD

    Hey I USE to enjoy thomas as much as the next guy, he was exciting to
    watch and made some great crunch time plays early in his career.  I
    feel they were good enough to have won 4 championships but 2 they lost
    out of pure inexperience.  I can admit all that I also admit that I
    know very much dislike the image they so HEAVILY pushed onto the fans
    of being the bad guys of BBall...ANd during that time there was Isiah
    smiling thru it all...Once, Twice, Threee times your out..Theres just
    too many instances where he acts like a spoiled child who crys when
    they dont get what they want...Weather thats Not giving jordan the ball
    in the all star game, Mauling magic then kissing and making up, saying
    birds just another player (If black) walking off the floor after
    loosing to the bulls...Id say that if Isiah spent as much time thinking
    of ways to win instead of ways to whine they would be a better team.  I
    think the problem is plain ol jealousness because hes not now and never
    was as big as jordan/magic/bird and never will be regardless if he had
    10 Rings...  I wish him well and I dont know enough about every player
    in the league to pick the Olympic team but I think they did a fairly
    good job with it.
    							M_Air_Brooks

>    Acutally, Isiah has delivered, on numerous occasions.  
    
    Isiah, the NBA's deliverance dude.
    

    re .124
    
    I believe it was ROdman who said that Bird would be just another player
    if he was black.  Isiah agreed when the reporters asked him.  Didn't he
    say something like "Yeah, whatever Rodman said" or something like that.
    
    Celtic revisionism has Isiah saying the Bird comment.  
    
    Without a doubt, that whole incident was stupid and dumb. However,
    since one Larry Bird, to whom the comment was made, was able to push it
    aside, I think that the fans can too.  
    
    Obviously, you also buy the complete Michael whine story about the
    all-star game(BTW, in the original complaint, Michael cited one Larry
    Bird as being in cohoots - another fact left out in Celtanic
    revisionism).  It always amazed me that Michael acted like a little
    baby and came out smelling like his diaper had roses in it.
    
    I'll stay away from the kissing thang, don't want to upset the macho
    men.
    
    Oh yes, and his other sin continues to be that he smiles....
    
    I guess smiling is kinda like sweating....it must mean *something*
    
    JD

    RE: Celtics revisionism
    
    JD, 
    
    The Celtics have never claimed that Thomas made the direct comment.  I
    don't recall them ever saying anything, aside from Bird accepting
    Isiah's apology.  You took a statement from a barely literate Bulls fan
    and made it sound like the Celtics are trying to change history. 
    Somehow you've managed to drag the Celtics into the brouhaha caused by
    Layden's comments.  Congrats on continuing to fester your ill conceived
    notions.  Too bad Dan's no longer here to join you,leaving you stuck with
    just the Doc on your side (and we all know about measuring a man [and
    his statements] by the company he keeps).   
    
    Keep up the hypocracy!

    	Congrats B.O.S.S.  And just to set the record straight before
    we get some more revisions, it was an L.A. writer who started the
    whole thing by reporting it.
    
    				/Don

    Nice try B.S. er B.O.S.S.
    
    /Don - thanks for pointing out the L.A. angle - funny how Mike H.
    entered it.  Methinks he's a closet Lakers fan...
    
    JD

    I think Zeke could be guilty of a lot worse than being upset that he
    doesn't have the opportunity to play ball for his country.  I agree,
    I'd take Dumars over Thomas, but I can't knock the guy for expressing
    disappointment.
    
    Hawk - there are only 3 guards that I can see - (Air, Magic, Stockton).
    A couple that could play guard if they had to (Mullin, Pippen), but no
    4th guard.
    
    I'd take KJ over Thomas right now too... maybe even a healthy Mark
    Price.  But Thomas has led a team to a title...
    
    -Walt
                                                   

>    Why is what Layden said so true?  Layden has an interest in degrading

    Probably because I believe he is.  Taking Layden's interest in Stockton
    aside, I agree with what he said.  I used to think he was genuine, but
    he's slipped too many times for me to believe that All-American-
    Humble-Pie attitude and smurk of his.

>    So, since none of you KNOW Isiah personally, how do you know he's a
>    classless anus?  

    Some people are better at evaluating character than others.  I admit, I
    was fooled at first by his appearance of good-naturedness and the cat 
    that ate the mouse grin.
    
>    So what if Magic didn't defend him in public?  What has that got to do

    I lost respect for Magic over that too.  Personal experience tells me
    that true friends are there for you when you need them most.  Magic
    could've put in a good word then, but declined.  I don't know, maybe
    Magic saw the light too.

>    Larry Bird hasn't been the classiest person in the world, neither has
>    Air, nor a lot of other guys.   

    Agreed, but not nearly at the same level as Isiah.
    
>    I've always thought Isiah played the game with guts, determination and
>    class.  He's given his all to the Pistons, and there's no doubt in my
>    mind, or the minds of the Pistons' ownership that drafting and signing
>    Isiah Thomas was the first step they took in turning around a franchise
>    that was moribund.  
    
    I agree with most of that, but it also helps me remember that cute
    little maneuver where he steps on opponents feet to cause turnovers.
    He's going to ruin someone's career one of these days and that's
    another classless part of him.

    Mike

>    /Don - thanks for pointing out the L.A. angle - funny how Mike H.
>    entered it.  Methinks he's a closet Lakers fan...
    
    Not on my worst day.  That LA Times article was originally posted in
    CELTICS notes (in the NBA News topic) by a DECcie in the LA area.
    
    On the lighter side...
    
    It's official: Nintendo will release Bill Laimbeer's Combat Basketball
    in time for Christmas! No referees! No personal fouls to worry about!
    Just all-out full-contact basketball! I think the story-line is something
    like "It's the year 2023 and Bill Laimbeer has become commisioner of
    the NBA...  He's back, he's mad and he's carrying a nine-iron!"
    
    You get the idea.
    
    Bill's going to be in the commercial, too, sporting a hi-tech armour suit.
    
    Mike

    I keep seeing references to an interview whereby Magic didn't defend
    Isiah, and Jordan was standing next to him or nearby.
    
    Since I didn't see it, could someone please provide the details so I
    can figure out what everyone is talking about?
    
    Thanks,
    
    lEe

 Gee JD, you and I are polar opposites on this Isaiah thang. What
are the chances of that? [insert smiley face here] It wasn't just
the Bird/Rodman incident where btw Bird could have hung Isaiah out
to dry but instead let him off the hook. Not exactly the act of a
classless man either. It's the total package that comes off as much 
less than sincere and bordering on totally fake. The phoney smile,
the kiss, starting up with Mahorn only to be brushed aside like
some annoying insect, I just find it unpalatable. I agree with an
earlier noter who said that it wasn't just that he kissed Magic it's
that it was staged for the viewing public. I used to live in Boston's
South End. Guys kissing don't bother me, guys in stilletto heels and
cocktails dresses now that's another matter. Finally, I haven't seen
as bad a display of dirty basketball since ML Carr retired than in the
Detroit-Chicago series.

 In other news William Bedford, rocket scientist and winner of the
Willard Scott/John Kenneth Galbraith Award for his ground breaking
research on weather and how it affects world economies, is being
sued by a man who claims Bedford pushed him aside and  made off with the
man's limo which Bedford claimed to own. The man, Patrick Gallina,
also claims Bedford threw him to the ground when Gallina tried to recover
some personal property from the car.
    

    Yawn...  who cares?  I'm sure this is worse than say, vehicular
    homicide...

    
     Reason No. 317 to dislike Isaiah Thomas: He plays in Detroit but
     he's a spokesman for Toyota.

    re -1
    
    That's no reason.  Toyota makes a superior product to anything Detroit
    turns out....
    
    JD

Ross Perot said on Larry King the other night that we have to improve
the quality of our products if we want people to buy American.

He's right.  We used to turn out stuff that was solid.  Now we don't
any more.

Although I must say, I've got NO complaints about my GMC pickup truck.
BEST vehicle I've ever owned....


And on the Pistons:

	Anyone seen the sneaker commercal with Isiah yet?


'Saw

    
     re .138
    
     Yeah, it is a reason because it's insensitive. What's next ? Michael
    Jordan for krugerrands ?

       Yeah, I almost bought a GMC lasted month Saw. The Mazda guy gave me
    a better deal though. Hey, I got 185,000 out of my old Mazda, so I
    caint go wrong with another one.
                                       Denny

    re .140
    
    Is it insensitive only because Isiah represents Detroit, and presumably
    most of the basketball fans who work in the auto industry in the area
    are Pistons fans? If it was, say Magic Johnson, would it be any
    different? (FWIW, an article in SI a couple of weeks ago mentioned how 
    Magic, who endorses KFC, couldn't be seen in public eating McDonalds, at 
    the McDonalds tournament in Paris, and couldn't pose for a photo with 
    Ronald McDonald) 
    
    As far as cars go, unless things drastically change I would never buy
    an American car. Jingoism and patriotism aside (what's the diff?), I
    will buy the best product for my money, period. Having said that, there 
    probably is no such thing as an "American" car, since pre-asembled parts 
    come from all over the world - Electronic chips from Japan, but asembeld 
    in Singapore, seat leather from Brazil, steel from Korea, mechanical
    parts from Mexico, etc.
    
    Lee Iacoca said it best in one of his ads about 10 years ago: "If you
    can find a better built samll car, buy it!"  
    
    I did, and I did. 
    
    Tom

    Tom, it isn't because he's a Piston - but because he's Isiah.  He can't
    do anything right in some folks eyes.  Michael Jordan could endorse
    selling child pornography, and no one would utter a peep.
    
    JD

    re .142
        
  >>  Is it insensitive only because Isiah represents Detroit, and presumably
  >>  most of the basketball fans who work in the auto industry in the area
  >>  are Pistons fans? If it was, say Magic Johnson, would it be any
  >>  different?     
    
    Yes and yes but make that most of the basketball fans who *used* to
    work in the auto industry. Also because I don't like him. Patriotism 
    has nothing to do with it.
    
    re. 143
    
    More of the same old JDeology (tm).
    
    (insert smiley faces where appropriate)

     Well, I could understand if the Detriot fans felt Isaih is "slapping 
    them in the face" by endorsing a Japanese car manufacturer, especially 
    if the region is dependent on the US auto industry, which is in a pretty 
    bad slump right now. What do the Detroit fans think? Is he booed at home? 
    This is the first mention I've heard of this.
    
    The funny thing is, I always thought Isiah was a better PR manipulator
    than to do something like this. He is a marketable enough star that maybe 
    he coulda done the same thing for Ford, GM, Chrysler, etc. Now suppose
    Thomas played for a different team, would there be anything wrong with
    him endorsing Toyota?
    
    This isn't to say we need to have a "politically correct" (hate that
    term!) list of possible endorsements for celeberties.
    
    Tom

     WHAT'S ALL THE FUSS ABOUT..... So the guy endorses a Toyota !
    They are good cars and besides,  how many people are really gonna
    buy a car just because some bum from the Pistons says it good. I
    say let the guy make his money anyway he wants within the leagal 
    bounds and leave him alone.
    
    Big Game
    
    P.s. I Hate Thomas !!

    Agree Big Game.  Manyathletes endorse foreign products.  many endorse
    food or drink that may not be good for kids (who they are 'role' models
    for...).
    
    Others endorse products that, through no fault of their own, become
    status symbols and people die over - such as Air Jordans, Reebok Pumps,
    and Addidas Bulls jackets...
    
    JD

    
    	re a few
    
       You guys can take your toyomazhonuzki's and jam them were the rising
    sun does not shine.
    
    
    Cadzilla
    
    I'd rather push my GMC than ride in some damn rice burner!!!

     I'll tell ya....  I've yet to have to push my Toyota Pick-up anywhere
    and that includes through some of the toughest four wheeling in the
    state of Colorado.  The truck has 100,000 plus mile on it and runs
    like a champ.....Only thing I've replaced is a fan belt and brakes.
    I resent you statement.... I picked a Toyota because it was the best
    truck on the market and a real value not because it was from Japan.
    When Detroit gets off their ass (And it looks as though they are)
    and builds a product that is of the same quality and close in price,
    I'll buy it.  Until then, Toyota has my business.
    
     You Know,  I get the same kind of crap from the Bikers around here
    about my Yamaha FZR600.  They say "what a peice of crap" or Why don't
    you get a real motorcycle.  I say,  Lets run the Quarter mile or how often
    to you push you Harley home from a days ride.  Besides, and this really
    ticks me off....  Harley is nearly half owned by the Japanesse and 35%
    of the friggen parts are mad there.....  Give me a break !!!   I'll bet
    you'll find that many of the parts on your GMC (which you've probably
    had in the garage several times) are made in Japan.  I think spending
    you hard earned money on anything but the best quality product is
    stupid,  what do you think !!!
    
    
    Big Game  (Who has a TV, Sound System, Microwave, Camera and a ton of
    	       other stuff from Japan as well !!!)

     When I entered the original note about Isaiah I honestly had no
    idea that it would start this jingoistic bull****. It's not about
    Japan-bashing, it's about a perceived lack of sensitivity on Isaiah's
    part because he plays in Detriot. That's it, period. Terms like "rice 
    burner" are inflammatory and unnecessary.
    

   
    

    I agree, what it all the fuss about.  Making a Toyota commercial may
    not have been the wisest PR move, but there is nothing illegal about
    it.  Besides, we don't hear (for example) Pepsi drinkers complaining
    that Ewing made Minute Maid commericals.
    
    RE: Detriot Cars
    
    I'll keep it mild and short.
    
    I've spent much time in very pro-union mills and factories.  Unions are
    necessary and history has proven what happens without them.  But...
    Unless unions release their grip on corporate America, they will
    destroy the U.S.
    
    Corporations (so I've been told - I'm too young) used to be bad, but
    have gotten the message about competing and quality.  It's time that
    union workers did also.
    
    I used to be *buy american*.  I am no longer so sure.
    
    Commander Scott

For the record "Rice Burner" is not an inflammatory term.

It's a pretty accepted term among motorcyclists.  I've heard more
Kawasaki and Suzuki riders refer to their crotch rockets as rice burners.

It used to be a deragotory term hung on them (used to be us but I don't
ride anymore) by the Harley guys.  But now just about every biker I know
who rides a Jap machine calls it "ridin' rice".


The problem in this country is that Japan makes a damn good product.
They ain't the most innovative people in the world, but if they reverse
engineer something they can turn out quality, quality, quality.

If this country spent half as much time worrying about the quality of
the products it turns out as it did who's gonna win the NBA champeenship,
the rising sun wouldn't.....8^)


'Saw

    
    Re Small game
    
      I would expect that kind of comment from a geek of your class. When
    do you ever stop running the mouth? I have 96k on my GMC and it'll drag
    that toy of yours up and over any pass here in the Rockies. 
    
    Cadzilla

>      I would expect that kind of comment from a geek of your class. When
>    do you ever stop running the mouth? I have 96k on my GMC and it'll drag
>    that toy of yours up and over any pass here in the Rockies. 


[PUTTING ON MODERATOR HEADGEAR]

	Guys, guys, guys...

	I'm not singling anyone out here, but this is the pistons note.
	Please take the my truck is better that your truck to the 
	nah, nah, nah, nah, note.  I'll even join you there when I
	remove my Official Genuine Non-Nationalistic Moderator's Headgear.


Frank

[REMOVING MODERATOR HEADGEAR -- LOOKING FOR THE NAH NAH NOTE]

    One lastthing. I come from a blue-collar, union card carrying, factory
    working family.  My dad, like a million other blue collar workers, is
    no longer a worker.  His factory was first moved from New York to New
    Jersey, most of the skilled workers fired and replaced by unskilled
    boat people from Haiti.  After a few years (and a few months short of
    important pension stuff...) he was cut without warning and little
    severance by this company.  They are moving most of the operation to
    the south for even cheaper unskilled labor, and then out of the country
    for even cheaper unskilled labor.  
    
    Was this the unions fault?  Or was it the 'owners' who over borrowed
    and then sold the company to a huge conglomerate that specializes in
    buying and trading companies for profit - they don't care about the
    PRODUCT or the PEOPLE - they only care about lining their own pockets.
    
    The American Dream.  Serve in the armed forces.  Work to support your
    family for years and years.  Get dumped so that a rich trader like Carl
    Ichan can make another million.   So that illegal aliens can work in
    sweat shot conditions.
    
    JD
    
    PS:  There's a decent series of articles in many newspapers on the
    "Death of the Middle Class" - good reading material - but very
    sobering.

    
     GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR !!!!!!!
    
     I think I'll leave this one alone.....  I will say hov ever that
    I didn't see any FACKS(tm) about that GMC Repair Record,  Only a
    few uncalled for Personal attacks....  Later Butt Head !!
    
    Big Game

    OK, I probably started this whole thang on this tangent, but the
    question remains: Are Detroit fans upset about this, or not? If they
    are oblivious, and only care about what he does on the court, well who 
    cares? All I was saying was that I could understand it if they were
    upset, since the US car industry indirectly supports the Pistons and
    pays Isaih's salary. Yes, Isaih is free to do whatever he pleases, but 
    as we all know, any individual is capable of making judgement errors. 
    
    Tom

    Tom-
    
    We should just invoke the "T.B. Jordan Rule" that was used in the
    Presidential snub.  Makes no difference if fans are angry.  This is a
    non-issue, like Michael, Isiah should be able to do whatever he needs
    to make money for his family (the last sentence invokes the AirBrooks
    Code...)
    
    JD

    re .138

    JD, that is true, but if Isiah is really image-consciosus, that is a
    HUGE blunder. I don't know if you've ever been to Detroit, but people
    who drive foreign cars usually have to park a long way off from their
    jobs - esp. in a auto factory.

    As a PR move - it is horrendous, but like I said before, John Salley
    is the Pistons true ambassador to the city - and esp. inner-city
    Detroit.
                                                             
    Doc

    re .149
    
    I can vouch for Small Game's Toyota.
    
    
    
    Why, I've seen him put that truck through some incredible stuff to get
    it up into other team's bandwagons when the Donks fade ! And at
    altitude no less !
    
    One hell of a car !!!!
    
    
    :-) :-) :-)
    
    Doc

    
    	Let's see......Jack claims GMC's are in the shop alot........
    	He then sez they are made up mostly of Japanese parts........
    	Is there a correlation there? :^)
    
    	Claybroon

Guys, guys, guys....

The Detroit Pistons we're talking about are the HOOPS team, not the ones
in the GMC 8^)


'Saw

    Good one Doc....  On that note I'm outta this one.  I never liked
    the Detroit Pistons any how.
    
    
    ;^)
    
    Big Game
    
    P.s.  Clay,  Shaddaapp !!!

    
    	I have one question for you Big Game,
    
      Why does the Toy you claim in .149 to have 100k+ miles only show
    69k on the odometer? No more comments, but I had to know.
    
    Cadzilla
    
    

    re .167:  Take it to CARBUFFS (or at least to Topic 73, the Junk Note).

    
     Isaiah "Psycho Midget" Thomas was fined $3,000 for retaliating when
    Hawks center Kevin Willis flagrantly fouled him. If they really wanted
    to punish the little twerp they'd let it continue the next time he
    starts up with someone like Willis or Mahorn.

    Tommy -
    
    If Willis flagrantly fouled him (and think about it -- a 7'+ guy with
    over a 100 pounds on him flagrantly fouls a little guy...) and Isiah
    retaliates - how can you then say Isiah "starts UP"...
    
    I think he deserved the fine - but it isn't like nothing happened and
    he went after Willis.  Funny, but when Ralph Sampson went after
    Schitingg - everyone was all over the big guy picking on the little
    guy...
    
    And - to put it in perspective, I've seen lots of guys retaliate - or
    start to retaliate - after a flagrant foul.  
    
    Did WIllis go and apologize for the foul after the game?  Last week,
    Chris Mullin flagrantly fouled Michael Cage very hard - so hard that
    Cage had to leave the game and couldn't shoot his foul shots.  After
    the game, Mullin went straight to the Sonics dressing room to apologize
    to Cage.  Cage said it was a classy act.  I wonder if Willis did the
    same - or if a flagrant foul is okay in some cases....
    
    JD

    Thomas said after the game that he ddn't think the foul was dirty. I
    guess two men lost their head in the heat of the battle.
    
    Big deal.
    
    Doc

    
     If the foul wasn't dirty and Isaiah came up swinging after it then
    how does that make *two* men who lost their heads in the heat of bat-
    tle ? One of these days Schizo is going to take a swing at the wrong 
    guy and end up getting seriously hurt. I just hope I get to see it.

       Did Ralph 'Stiff' Sampson ever apologize to Sischting(sp)?
                                          Denny

       Did Ainge ever apologize to Rollins for biting off his arm?
                                    Denny

    Did Sam jones ever apologize to Wilt for raisin that chair in self
    defense?
    
    

    Did ML Carr ever apologize to the entire NBA for being such a
    brown-nosing jerk ?

    
>    Did ML Carr ever apologize to the entire NBA for being such a
>    brown-nosing jerk ?
     
    Next time ML's over here in LKG on his DEC customer business,
    Midnight, I'll tell him you're looking for an apology pronto and
    point him in your direction...
    
    glenn
    

    

     More importantly, who cares whether ML Carr apologized or not ? If he
    has anything to apologize for. All of this talk of apologies detracts 
    from the central issue which of course is Isaiah's deep rooted psychosis 
    which is linked to a severe Oedipal Complex, a Napolean Complex  and strong
    feelings of inadequacy. These conditions manifest themselves in these fits 
    of rage and violence. The cherubic facade he seeks to maintain is only a 
    vain attempt to hide the emotional turmoil hidden just beneath the surface.
    What we have here is a very sick young man crying out for help. 

    re Denny and Bye-Bye (Byrdie)
    
    Rooooling !
              
    re  ML Carr
    
    Brown-nosing :== Towel waving, end of the bench routine, master of
    undetected (by refs) cheapshot .... an living embodiment of all that is
    wrong with Celtichood.
    
    And if I come up to ML navel, I blast him in it with my water pistol !
    
    Doc

    
    Tommy - 
    
    What I want to know is how come you never mentioned the fact that
    Willis was fined $3,500 for hi part in this 'fight'.  Since Willis
    received the higher fine - that means that in the NBA's eyes he was the
    instigator of the impropriety.
    
    Must have just slipped by ya....
    
    JD

�    What I want to know is how come you never mentioned the fact that
�    Willis was fined $3,500 for hi part in this 'fight'.  Since Willis
�    received the higher fine - that means that in the NBA's eyes he was the
�    instigator of the impropriety.
    
    JD, Tom did say that Isiah was fined for retaliating.  According to my
    dictionary, retailation comes after someone instigates something.

    
    re  JD    
     
     This is the Pistons Note. Willis plays for the Hawks. I also didn't
    mention that Isaish himself said that it wasn't a dirty foul. It was
    a simple 'no easy layup' foul. If you saw it you would be hard pressed 
    to disagree . Pipsqeak overreacted. If he hadn't overreacted no one would 
    have been fined.
    
     I also never claimed to be impartial. I said I don't like Isaiah and I 
    don't.
    
     I'm sensing a bit of hostility here, JD.
    
     
    

    Tommy, .180 is a classic!   Ha ha ha
    
    I haven't the foggiest idea of what it meant, but it sure looked good
    to me.
    
    lEe

    	Hey JD, Tommy's right.  Isiah needs help (and you need to cut
    down on your coffee).
    
    				/Don

 cmon now Doc, Ml's only crime in life is that he played for the Celtics. case
 closed.

 I'd say Tommy's got Isiah's pysche down pat...I saw the play, hard foul,
 Isiah again for the hundreth time over-reacts...

 mike

    Yawn... so a guy 6'11" fouls a guy 6'3" hard and the 6'3" took
    exception to it.  What's the big deal.  Do we start a Sabre's
    note after what happened with Calgary?  Do we start a Heat note
    to talk about Seikaly retailiating with Kite?  Oh joy... If Laimbeer
    does that to Rumeal Robinson, I bet Rumeal isn't the one who gets
    blasted...

 You mean Lamibeer is still playing? Geez can't recall seeing him in any
 highlight films this year...

 ;^) <- many

    
    re: .192
    
    Mike, Bill stopped playing when they rode him out of Cleveland
    many years ago.
    
    :-)
    

    Little Princess put the final nail in his Olympic coffin last night. 
    After KJ scorched him with 23 points (to Thomas' 6) in the 3rd quarter
    alone, Princess flipped off ref Rich Powers early in the 4th to get
    ejected.
    
    Suns were only up by 5 then, but won easily 102-92, to take their 8th
    in a row and 10th out of their last 11.
    
    Mike

     This news of Isaiah's latest psychotic episode saddens me but it
    doesn't surprise me. I just hope the poor emotionally crippled SOB
    gets help before he seriously hurts somebody. Drawing on my exten-
    sive background in psychology (PSYCH 101) it's my opinion that it is 
    only a matter of time before his mind snaps and he's on top of some
    building with a high powered rifle picking off innocent pedestrians.


    
    

    	Let's hope it doesn't come to that Dr. Tom, but I would suggest
    staying away from the Garden the next time Detriot� comes to town.
    
    				/Don

    We've needed a good armchair doctor since Dan Schneider left ;^)

    I'm here reading USA Today - and it mentions that Isiah THomas became
    the first person to ever be ejected from a game.  Thanks to Mike Heiser
    for entering the information.  Amazing how Isiah is psychotic - yet
    CHarles Barkley, who's been known to be chucked from games, get large
    fines, and spit on folks, is just another guy.   In fact, looking at
    the boxscores, we find that Isiah was the only guy ejected last night,
    but not the only person to draw technicals.
    
    Oh, and from reading Mr. Heiser's original note, it would *seem* that
    Isiah had a woeful game.  Here are his numbers:
    
    7-13 from the field, 3-4 from the line for 18 points, he had 10
    assists, one rebound and a steal in 34 minutes.
    
    Kevin Johnson, who 'scorched' him, was an amazing 9-22 from the field,
    but was 10-10 from the line, with 4 rebounds and 8 assists and a steal
    in 36 minutes.  
    
    As those numbers show, KJ totally dominated Isiah.  Oh, and both
    gentlemen had 3 personals.  
    
    Oh, and after the game, Isiah went out to the desert, killed some cows
    and kids, drank their blood, worshipped some shrubbery, and went home
    to watch "All-Satan Satellite TV" while beating his wife and passing
    out condoms to 5-year olds.
    
    That should just about make the character assassination complete.
    
    Oh, and Frank Layden reported that Isiah is really David Duke dressed
    as a Drood(Tm).
    
    JD

>    Oh, and after the game, Isiah went out to the desert, killed some cows
>    and kids, drank their blood, worshipped some shrubbery, and went home
>    to watch "All-Satan Satellite TV" while beating his wife and passing
>    out condoms to 5-year olds.
>    
>    That should just about make the character assassination complete.
>    
>    Oh, and Frank Layden reported that Isiah is really David Duke dressed
>    as a Drood(Tm).
>    
    
       Looks like Dr. Tom was right. Somebody better lock the guy away!!
                                  Denny

    I failed to mention that he flipped off the ref after he was called for
    fouling KJ.  As KJ says in his Converse commercial, "You can't beat
    what you can't catch" and Princess was totally frustrated.  He couldn't
    stop KJ's quick first step as he blew by him for the easy baskets so he
    resorted to his dirty tactics (stepping on KJ's shoes) and fouling.
    
>    7-13 from the field, 3-4 from the line for 18 points, he had 10
>    assists, one rebound and a steal in 34 minutes.
    >
>    Kevin Johnson, who 'scorched' him, was an amazing 9-22 from the field,
>    but was 10-10 from the line, with 4 rebounds and 8 assists and a steal
>    in 36 minutes.  
    
    According to your numbers...
    
                       Pts   Rebs    Asts
    KJ                 28     4       9
    Princess           18     1      10
    
    What your condescending note and paper didn't state is that KJ only had
    5 points at halftime.  KJ destroyed him in the 3rd quarter.  In the
    first half, Phoenix was working the inside game so KJ only drove enough
    to keep the D honest.
    
>    As those numbers show, KJ totally dominated Isiah.  Oh, and both
>    gentlemen had 3 personals.  
    
    As with steals, the paper doesn't tell you who the fouls were against.  
    I watched the game.  Thomas just couldn't handle the player that should
    rightfully replace Magic in the Olympics.
    
    The rest of your note only proves how foolish you can be at times.

I've long despised the Princess, but now that I know he's a Drood,
I kinda like the little feller!

Laker_Ken

  I know it's hard not to take it personally but you shouldn't, Mike.
 Given the overwhelming evidence of Isaiah's lack of character and JD's
 defence of him it leads me to believe that there's a deeper, psych-
 ological reason why JD seeks to defend the indefensible. Something 
 deep within JD's psyche that causes him to react with fists clenched 
 whenever someone casts aspersions on the name of Isaiah. My personal 
 theory, once again drawing on my extensive background in the field of 
 psychology, is that what we have here is a simple case of "good/evil
 inversion". You see in JD's mind good (Michael Jordan) is evil and evil
 (Isaiah Thomas) is good. Thus it is perfectly acceptable for Isaiah to
 blatantly assault another player or flip off the referee but it's a major
 transgression for Mike to skip visting the Prez so he can spend time with 
 the greatest gift life has given him, his family. If I've seen it once
 I've seen it a million times.
 

    FWIW
    
    
    
    ISFH
    
    
    
    HTH
    

    Mike -
    
    I read your note before looking at the paper.  From reading your note,
    I assumed I'd look at Isiah's box and see less than 10 points, a couple
    of assists, and lots of fouls.
    
    Your note didn't present everything - just your totally biased
    pre-Phoenix SUns, anti-isiah Thomas feelings.   
    
    Isiah was tossed in the 4th quarter.  
    
    Hey - if you want to get jollies over every little mistake Isiah does -
    then go for it.  KJ would be a fine Olympian. I certainly like him.  
    
    Every night, someone in the NBA does something that can be considered
    'dirty' - Bill Cartwright's elbows, the myriad of players who push off,
    grab, hold, etc. - yet its Isiah who gets the rap from folks.  
    
    Actually, Mike - KJ had THREE points - not five as you stated - at the
    half, as he scored 25 of his 28 points in the second half.  How many
    did he score after Isiah left (8:40 mark of the FOURTH quarter?)  I
    know he scored 2 with less than 30 seconds left.  
    
    And no matter who's doing the shooting - 9-22 isn't a good percentage
    from the field.  
    
    As for the rest of your note - I'll let you whine and pout to the refs.
    
    JD 

    PH.D. Tommy,
    I get this uncontrollable twitching and drooling whenever ND loses.
    Tell me, O Quacked One, how do I control this neurotic behavior?
    
    8^)
    MikeL
    
    

    Tommy -
    
    HAHAHA - good stuff.   Actually, I don't really care about Isiah - and
    his game has been going down hill over the last few years.  I think the
    burden of carrying the Pistons in his early years has caught up with
    him.  
    
    I only 'defend' him cuz so many folks seem to get a perverse pleasure
    out of pointing out all his downfalls.   In his prime, there werent'
    many folks better than Isiah.  Anyone who denies that doesn't know a
    dang thing about hoops.  
    
    I find the whole love/hate relationship with the Pistons rather amusing
    - but a perfect example of media manipulation.   CBS and the national
    media jumped on the 'Bad Boys' image - and except for Mahorn and
    Laimbeer, the team was regarded as hard working, blue-collar, with a
    revolving 'star' offense.  Namely, the guy who was hot got the shots.
    
    In Isiah, DUmars, and the Microwave, they had the best 3 guard combo
    the league had seen in a long time (IMO).  They came within a
    questionable call (Laimbeer on Kareem) of being Three-time champs. 
    SUddenly last year, the Bulls and Air finally put the pieces together -
    and like vultures to rotting carrion, those in the media that had rode
    the crest of the Pistons busily readied knives to stick in their back. 
    And the guy they went after was Isiah.   Coupled with injuries, he had
    his worst year last year - and the vultures loved it.  Now, with the
    Pistons struggling, the Bulls flying, and age and too many minutes
    catching up with Isiah - he's attacked from all corners.  Would make a
    good case study.
    
    The only reason I'd like to see Isiah do well is because it would piss
    a lot of folks off.
    
    JD

>    Isiah was tossed in the 4th quarter.  
    
    correct and KJ sat down for *most* of the remainder.  Knight ran the club
    after that.  KJ came in with less than 1 minute left when Detroit cut a
    10 point lead to 5.  
    
>    Actually, Mike - KJ had THREE points - not five as you stated - at the
>    half, as he scored 25 of his 28 points in the second half.  How many
>    did he score after Isiah left (8:40 mark of the FOURTH quarter?)  I
>    know he scored 2 with less than 30 seconds left.  
    
    That was his only hoop since he sat down immediately after the
    ejection.  The TV stats crew showed that KJ outscored Princess 23-6 in
    the 3rd quarter.  23 (3rd quarter points) + 3 (1st half points) + 2
    (4th quarter points) = 28 (when I last went to school)
    
>    And no matter who's doing the shooting - 9-22 isn't a good percentage
>    from the field.  
    
    What has his FGM-FGA ratio in the 3rd quarter when the game became
    tight and crucial?  Besides, that's irrelevant to the fact that Thomas
    was outclassed all the way around.
    
    Mike

    JD,
    
    If ya REALLY want to get a lot of people pissed off
    
    
    	pick up the bar tab all night long!
    
    
    ;^)
    
    Kev
    

    You guys slay me !

�CBS and the national
�    media jumped on the 'Bad Boys' image 
    
    And Thomas and the rest of the Pistons did nothing on or off the court
    to promote this image themselves.

    
    JD, I've always hated the Pistons.  Is it okay to continue to hate
    them?
    
    glenn
    

    Even George Trapp and Bob Lanier?  Even when ML Carr was a Piston?
    Or when it was trendy to hate them?  

    RE: -1
    
    I think the hatred started when the Pistons started playing
    Playoff basketball in the Regular season
    
    In the Playoffs the tough, hard, physical play has always
    been allowed
    
    When the Pistons won their first title, every regular season
    game was played like the playoffs and it took the whole league
    by suprise
    
    The second title, was harder because other teams (Bulls, 76ers
    and Celtics) started "fighting" back during the regular season,
    but Detroit got to the finals and Portland got so caught up
    in the NBA sponsorsed "BAD BOY" crap that they were outplayed
    and REALLY out coached ... I'm suprised Adelman kept his job
    
    Detroit never had a chance to three-peat, the NBA built the
    hysteria on the tough play, and even allowed it, then they
    had to react and start handing out fines and suspensions
    (David Stearn is a looney, imho)
    
    Maybe the play will finally settle back down, but there is
    still plenty of animosity towards the Pistons, some of it
    would be better directed at the League for allowing the
    type of play and NOT acting responsible enough to clean it up
    
    Just my .02 cents
    

    Pistons lost last night to the Clippers (have won 6th in row..)
    
    They are getting very little production from the center position. 
    William Bedford plays like Luther Rackley with a stress fracture, and
    Laimbeer's shooting touch is seemingly gone.   Thomas and Dumars are
    carrying the offensive load, and Darryl Walker, the Microwave's
    replacement, has never been a scorer, and is not getting a lot of
    minutes.  Aguirre is inconsistent, while ROdman is still playing good
    defense and grabbing boards.  Orlando Woolridge is Orlando Woolridge.
    
    Dumars with 36 and Isiah with 26 represented most of the Pistons
    scoring last night.  Meanwhile, Charles Smith continues to shine off
    the bench for the Clippers - scoring 23 points and grabbing 7 boards
    inonly 29 minutes of play.  
    
    There were no technical fouls called in the game.  
    
    JD

 
     
       Didn't the Pistons themselves revel in this "the guys you love
      to hate" reputation from the Bad Boys hats and T-shirts, that 
      despite what JD says were created by the Pistons players them-
      selves not given to them by the media, to the ultra-physical style
      of play. They fancied themselves sort of the Oakland Raiders of 
      basketball. And now that they're down people are not supposed to 
      enjoy kicking them ? Like I said before I like all the Pistons but 
      one and every time he screws up, which is quite often, I'm putting on 
      my steel-toed boots.
    

    Tommy -
    
    Yep, the Pistons sure reveled in the image.  No doubt about that. 
    Perhaps I wasn't clear - and I probably wasn't.  The media ate it up. 
    They loved it. Costas and the bunch loved it.  I just found it slightly
    amusing how last year these same folks who one year before were
    sporting woodies about the Pistons were feigning shock over their play
    and likening them to richard Speck and Charles Manson...
    
    JD

    Right JD, no matter what they said, they equated the Pistons with
    Jack Tatum and the Raider mystique.  So if you can't beat it, join it.
    I've got my black "Bad Boys" t-shirt (thanks to Ken Upton).
    
    Won't get into why they were treated differently from what Ainge did
    with Rollins and Threatt, what McHale did with Rambis, what Parish
    and Laimbeer went through, Sampson and Sichting...  Celts were never
    thought of as bad boys for similar tactics.  Of course they were the
    Celts.  Only Parish of that group isn't White.  That's a whole other
    rathole though.
    
    The Pistons tried to change their attack because they were getting old
    and they needed to change to try to win with the rest of the NBA
    (Chicago).  IMHO, they shouldn't have traded Edwards, but he's up
    there in years.  Vinnie, well, you've got to try something.  Walker
    is a good player but Woolridge isn't going to make up for the scoring
    drought.  A lot of their offense was based on establishing an inside
    game to Edwards and loosening things up for the guards and Aguirre.
    They have no inside game right now, and without that, you don't win
    in the NBA.  Dumars and Thomas have a lot of talent, but have to work
    a lot harder to score than past years and need help from somewhere.
    They need a productive big man or else they're going nowhere,
    especially with Daly leaving after next year.
    

                                                          
    C'mon, guys, you're reading way too much into this.  In the first
    place, I was kidding about "hating" the Pistons. I don't "hate"
    any members of any sports teams.  In the second place, Bill Laimbeer
    (who is white the last time I checked, although the mask last year
    might have confused things) has made a living out of this schtick of 
    his.  He'd probably be disappointed if opposing fans didn't hate
    him.  If Kevin McHale or Robert Parish had adopted the same routine 
    (and Danny Ainge did), I'm sure they'd be regarded the same way.
    
    The WWF-style play acting that the NBA doesn't mind cultivating
    did seem to cross the line somewhere in last year's playoffs, though.
    That was a bit much and I don't think it was just media interpretation
    either (blam the media only when it's convenient, JD?)  ;-) 
    
    glenn
    
    

    You're grasping at straws there, Walt. Fact is the most re-
   viled Piston, Laimbeer, is white and hardly anyone who is im-
   partial especially me would defend the actions of any of the 
   Celts you mentioned with the exception of Parish. Besides Celtics
   fans defending or excusing the actions of their players is no
   different from what you're doing. If the Pistons weren't your team 
   I seriously doubt that you'd be defending their actions because 
   by and large they're indefensible.
    
    

    I don't think so.  People bring up incidents from years ago with
    the Pistons but not the Celtics.  Also, most of the comments in
    here haven't been Laimbeer this and that they've been Rodman and
    Thomas.   I'm not defending them all the time, but I think they
    are getting a bum rap compared to a Cartwright or a Barkley, or
    other players.  Did I defend Thomas for the ejection in Phoenix
    or the fine against Willis other than Willis got fined more and
    nothing was mentioned about that.  I don't think I did when Rodman 
    dumped Pippen other than it was going both ways.  I don't think I 
    did when they left the court early.  But I do think Thomas shouldn't 
    be excluded from the Olympics because of his attitude and I think 
    there should be some kind of tryout for all interested instead of 
    handing out invites.  And I think that other players do the same
    things but when you're champion 2 of 3 years, you get more ink because
    of it.

    
    People don't bring up incidents from years ago with the Celtics?  Why
    just today someone was bitching about Danny Ainge, again making it
    sound like he bit Trre.  The person went on to mention Sichting and the
    McHale-Rambis incident.  
    
    It is funny how beople complain a lot less about Ainge once he was
    dealt away from the Celtics, though.
    
    Bruce

    Ainge started to tone down his act after :
    
    1) He got his clocked cleaned by Sedale Threatt (who should be inducted
    into the HoF on that bit of public service alone).
    
    2) He realized that he was getting older, slower, and that the
    Mafosio-style Celtic protection he got from the league (note that he
    never got fined more than the other guy - even when he instigated) was
    evaporating behind the weight of public opinion.

    	Hey Doc, I hear that Star magazine is looking for reporters.
    That last note should qualify you to be on their staff.
    
    				/Don

    Doc/Celtics=Schneid/Notre Dame   n'est-ce-pas?
    
    MikeL
    

    
    Not true, at leas Dan didn't try to use words he knew he couldn't
    spell.

 
 
	SALT LAKE CITY (UPI) -- Tyrone Corbin hit a free throw with 14.2
      seconds left Saturday night and the Utah Jazz withstood the first-
      quarter ejection of Karl Malone to register a 102-100 victory over 
      the Detroit Pistons.
	Malone was thrown out for a flagrant foul when he elbowed Isiah
      Thomas in the face while attempting to block Thomas' shot 7:32 into 
      the game. Detroit's Darrell Walker was also tossed after he threw a 
      punch as both benches emptied when Thomas went down.
	Thomas' forehead was split above his left eye and he was taken to a
      hospital where doctors used 25 stitches underneath the skin and 15
      stitches on top to close the cut.
	After being sewn up, Thomas returned to an 83-83 game with 6:53 to
      go. He brought Detroit to within one point with 24 seconds left when 
      he hit two free throws.
	However, Thomas missed a jumper with five seconds remaining and saw
      what would have been a game-winning 3-pointer from the right side go
      long. Utah's John Stockton grabbed the rebound as the game ended.
	Thomas finished with six points in 11 minutes. Detroit's Joe Dumars
      led all scorers with 28 points while teammate Dennis Rodman grabbed 18
      rebounds in 48 minutes.
	Jeff Malone had 26 points for the Jazz, including seven in the final
      quarter. He also had a season-high eight rebounds before fouling out.
      Blue Edwards added 19 points while Stockton and Mike Brown each con-
      tributed 17, with 10 of Brown's coming in the fourth quarter.
	Utah led 45-42 at the half, but Detroit scored the first six points
      of the third quarter.
	The win gave Utah a 15-9 record and an 8-1 mark at home. Detroit went
      2-3 on its road trip and dropped to 10-14 overall and 5-8 on the road.
    

    Well, I was wondering if Tommy B and Mike H. and the other anti-Isiah's
    were sporting woodies when they say the cheap shot that Karl "another
    fine Olympian" Malone threw at Isiah the other night.  Yeah, split his
    haid right open - wasn't it just great guys!  Isn't that what you guys
    have wanted.   Another big guy cheap shotting a small guy - opening up
    a massive wound.  Geez I hope Isiah didn't hurt Karl's elbow when he
    cheap-shotted him with his face.  What a cad that Isiah is.  That'll
    teach him.   I'm sure Frank Layden was happy too.  
    
    Too bad the Ol' Mailman couldn't have gotten him in the temple, or
    maybe in the eye, so that he could have caused permanent damage.  Boy,
    that would have made a lot of folks day.  
    
    Lets see what the NBA does with this one.  Bad weekend.  They have one
    Olympian claiming he was misquoted in his autobiography, another
    throwing balls in opponents faces (and not getting a whistle), and
    another one cheap-shotting, with intent to maim, another opponent. 
    Strut those chests, boys.
    
    Kudos to Darryl Walker for going after Karl Malone - of course ol' Karl
    only picks on guys smaller than him.   Kudos to Jerry Sloan for the
    best bit of spin control outside of Note 17.  
    
    Bill Laimbeer said it best "If it was me, they'd probably ban me..."
    
    JD

     Personally, I almost felt sorry for the little Pipsqueak. Almost but 
    not quite. I didn't get any pleasure out of seeing him get hurt but I
    also didn't think it was a vicious act either. It may have all been for
    the best. This incident may have cured Shortstuff of his penchant for 
    violence which was probably Malone's intention. Karl did him a favor.

     As for Walker going after Malone, he made sure there were plenty of peo-
    ple between him and Karl before he went ballistic. He's no fool.

     To answer Hawk's question: Isaiah was going in for a layup and Malone
    came out to meet him and leapt into Isaiah striking him above the left (?)
    eye with an elbow and opening up a nasty gash. The foul did look intent-
    ional (might not have been) but not it didn't look like Malone meant to 
    cause as much damage as he did. He looked genuinely sorry afterward.
    

>    Well, I was wondering if Tommy B and Mike H. and the other anti-Isiah's
>    were sporting woodies when they say the cheap shot that Karl "another
>    fine Olympian" Malone threw at Isiah the other night.  Yeah, split his
>    haid right open - wasn't it just great guys!  Isn't that what you guys
    
    JD, you're a whiner, and Karl Malone is a first class thug.  He gets
    away with murder on the court.
    
    Mike (who doesn't like him either)

                                              
    I question how they determined the play was a flagrant foul.  Unlike
    most flagrant fouls, Malone met Thomas from *in front* when they
    collided.  Sure, Malone initiated the collision and it was violent, 
    but how do they determine intent on such a play?
    
    glenn
    

    
    Look for "Massive Headwound Isiah" on Saturday Night Live nexted week.
    
    
    

    Glenn -
    
    I thought it centered on whether it was intentional - the Jazz sending
    Isiah a message cuz he lit up Mr. Olympian, John Stockton, for 44
    points the last time they met (made Stockton look like a fool...)
    
    Boy, I am touched that folks don't like to see others hurt.  Especially
    after reading numerous notes saying they hope Isiah gets clocked by
    someone.
    
    Walker did connect with Mark Eaton, though...now that's a mismatch.
    
    JD

>   Boy, I am touched that folks don't like to see others hurt.  Especially
>   after reading numerous notes saying they hope Isiah gets clocked by
>   someone.
    
    Glad that you admit you're touched.  Now the next step would be
    professional help.

    
>    Boy, I am touched that folks don't like to see others hurt.  Especially
>    after reading numerous notes saying they hope Isiah gets clocked by
>    someone.
    
     I just wasted half of my lunch hour going through the Pistons' note
     looking for one of the 'numerous' notes where it was hoped that Isaiah 
     gets clocked by someone and the only thing I could find was one note by 
     me saying that the next time he starts up with a Rick Mahorn or a Kevin 
     Willis the refs should let it go. It's entirely possible that this op-
     inion was expressed in another note.
    

    I'm sure Isiah must have started this one too somehow.  How can
    someone not get thrown out of a game for if he crosses the 3 second
    lane, hits the guy with an elbow leaving a 40 stitch gash?  If it's
    not intentional or flagrant, what is?  I guess Isiah must have deserved
    it because he was on the court and shouldn't try to drive to the hoop.
    
    He did return to the game after going to the hospital.

    
    From the replay I saw, Malone started under the basket, he didn't
    really cross the 3 second lane.  And I thought Malone did get thrown
    out.  

Excellent defense by Malone.  Considering the Pistons' well-known
fondness for tough defense, I half expected their bench to applaud
the Mailman for not allowing an uncontested layup.

Laker_Ken

    
    re .238
    
    Mike - reread your own note.  I never pointed you out, did I?  I said 
    "...touched that folks..."    Feeling paranoid?  Thinking that 'folks'
    included you.
    
    Oh, and about whining and the like - you've been whining ever sense the
    mods stopped the religion crusades.  
    
    IN this note, btw, you haven't advocated hurting Isiah - you've called
    him a classless anus, but that's about it...
    
    JD

    My comment was directed towards Glenn.
    
    Stopping a layup is one thing, causing a wound that large is another.
    Cartwright's another guy who has to learn to watch his elbows.
    
    
    For all those people who talk about the Piston's cheap shots, how do
    you defend this one or is like Clemens suddenly losing control after
    2 HR's enough to drill someone in the back "accidently"?

    Oh please, Walt.  You're starting to sound like JD.

    All I'm saying is that if you think the things the Pistons have done
    to get them criticized in here, then at least take the same view when
    others do it.  That's all.  Be objective in this crap.  I'm not saying
    Isiah's a saint, but perhaps he's not 100% guilty for every episode,
    but if others do it, it seems acceptable.  That's my beef.  Sorry if
    offends people.  
    
    I asked when Gullickson got tossed against Toronto after giving up
    back to back home runs how people could justify that Gullickson got
    tossed when Clemens did the same thing and got no real answer.  Just
    be consistent in what you think is right and wrong.  What's wrong with
    that?
    

    Walt you did get an answer on the Gullickson/Clemens thing.  I guess
    you just didn't think it was good enough.  Gullickson was tossed for
    headhunting with a fastball.  Clemens was warned for throwing a
    breaking pitch down and behind.
    
    FWIW, several folks in the Boston_Celtics notesfile (fans of not just
    the Celts) who actually saw the play in question (one of them was
    courtside when it happened) thought the contact was incidental.  It was
    also pointed out that Malone wasn't tossed for the flagrant foul, but
    for arguing the call with the ref and using profanity.

    
>    FWIW, several folks in the Boston_Celtics notesfile (fans of not just
>    the Celts) who actually saw the play in question (one of them was
>    courtside when it happened) thought the contact was incidental.  It was
>    also pointed out that Malone wasn't tossed for the flagrant foul, but
>    for arguing the call with the ref and using profanity.
     
    Thanks for the answer, Mac.  After seeing the replay, I was sincerely
    asking what I thought to be a legitimate question: how could you
    tell that Malone was deliberately trying to elbow Thomas in the
    head as opposed to aggressively going for the ball?  It sure wasn't
    clear to me, since Malone was coming in from within Thomas' field
    of vision and appeared to be in reasonable position to defend the
    play.  The number of stitches that Isiah took is irrelevant.  The 
    end result does not imply the intent.
    
    There is no parallel with the Clemens incident.  As you recall, Walt, 
    I stated that I believed that Clemens *was* deliberately brushing
    John Shelby off the plate.  I also claimed that the brushback is a
    legitimate, accepted part of baseball (with the exception of
    headhunting, which Clemens was not guilty of and Gullickson clearly
    was) and that Shelby and many other thin-skinned batters should 
    accept that and leave themselves and their bats at the plate.  There
    is no analogy between baseball's time-honored practice of the brushback
    and an elbow to the head in basketball.  If that was Malone's intent,
    it was indeed a despicable act.
    
    glenn
    

    So we know Gullickson was throwing at his head?  I thought Clemens
    said the ball slipped out of his hand.  
    
    If Malone wasn't thrown out for the elbow, he should have been.  Let's
    try another example.  In hockey, everyone except Ziegler thought Macoun
    should have been suspended for the stick incident with LaFontaine? 
    Why?  Because a player should be responsible for his stick at all
    times, accidental or not.  Now, what makes this different?  If a guy
    comes in hard and splits a guys head open, he shouldn't be held
    responsible?  Clemens and Gullickson both should be held responsible
    with what they do with a ball.  Hopkins should be held responsible
    for hitting a receiver across the middle, intentional or not.  Malone
    should be held accountable too.  That's my point.  The player shouldn't
    be so out of control that he can cause injury to another, intentional
    or not.  An elbow to the face like that should have resulted in an
    ejection.

    
    > The player shouldn't
    > be so out of control that he can cause injury to another, intentional
    > or not.
                                                        
    I see now what you're getting at, but I don't agree with it.  The
    punishment of a player, especially in a contact sport, should not
    be dependent on the possibility of injury incurred by another player.
    If that were the case, the cheapest of cheap shots might go 
    unaccounted for and pure accidents or hard, clean play discouraged 
    (especially in football!).  I don't have a problem with a rule in
    basketball that says all hard fouls shall be punishable by ejection,
    but as the flagrant foul rules now stand I believe they do allow for 
    the possibility of unintentional injury from rough play.
    
    Again, I'm not saying that's the case in the Thomas/Malone incident,
    but the doubt from watching the film is the reason I asked the question
    in the first place.  And I felt the same way when the Pistons played
    that kind of game (I mainly didn't like the post-game, between-whistles
    stuff in last year's playoffs).  No big deal...
    
    glenn
    

    
    I couldn't sleep last night from 2-5 am.  Phoenix, being the hot spot
    that it is, has only 2 tv stations that stay on after 2am, one shows
    Costas reruns the other repeats the name � hour newscast all three
    hours.  I saw the Malone play at least 4 times.  It looked like to me
    that Malone was going up to make sure Thomas didn't get an easy layup
    and planned on a hard foul.  However, it looked like he tried to do it
    in a way to make the contact look incidental (you can see him turning
    his body into Thomas).  I don't think he intended to hurt Thomas like
    he did.  
    
    I will admit, the play made me look forward to this note, though  (does
    that make me a bad person?)
    
    Bruce  

    ...no blood, no foul
    
    I guess it was a good call!

    
    
    Malone was fined $10,000 and suspended for 1 game.  Thomas 
    didn't play last night and is not expected to play in the next
    game.  His eye is swollen shut.
    
    Let's see $10,000 / 40 = $250 per stitch.
    
    \pjb

 Like BOSS said I finally saw the replay yesterday and sure looks like Malone
 is intentionally turning into Isiah to give a good hipcheck. He didn't give
 him a WWF style elbow but he sure kept it held still at a nice height...

    Walt -
    
    Why bother?  
    
    At least the NBA fined and suspended Malone.  
    
    I'd have loved to see the reaction if say, Bill Laimbeer had done this
    to say, Dee Brown, or KJ, or Mark Price, or the John Stockton.  I'd
    doubt anyone would be defending the action, no matter how many times
    they saw it on TV.   
    
    For those few who'd like to know a hoops score, instead of the latest
    Frank Layden quote on Isiah, the Pistons beat the Nuggets last night
    103-89.  Joe Dumars had 27 points, Laimbeer 15 with 7 boards, the Worm
    13 with 20 boards and Aguirre 22 off the bench.  For the Nuggets,
    Mutombo had 22 points, 13 boards and one block.
    
    Rest updated in the NBA note...
    
    JD

    I too finally got to see the incident, and have to agree with Mike's
    account (.254).  Maybe the elbow itself wasn't intentional, but Malone
    threw a hip check Chris Nilan would've been proud of, and was clearly
    going for the man and not the ball...
    
    
    py

    
>    I'd have loved to see the reaction if say, Bill Laimbeer had done this
>    to say, Dee Brown, or KJ, or Mark Price, or the John Stockton.  I'd
>    doubt anyone would be defending the action, no matter how many times
>    they saw it on TV.   
     
    Oh-so-typical dishonesty in response to some well-reasoned discussion,
    JD.  No one was "defending" Malone's action.  I for one do not believe
    that suspensions and fines should be handed out based on the extent
    of injury caused.  You and I both know that if Malone and Thomas
    crashed to the floor on the exact same play but no injuries were 
    sustained, there would be no suspension.  Just as with the NHL, if 
    the NBA wants to clean up rough play they have to apply some consistency
    to their rulings.
    
    glenn
    

    Malone also loses the $40K/game salary for being suspended.
    
    I think it was a little light, not because it was Isiah but I'm
    not thrilled with the idea of going for the body instead of the
    ball.  I believe Malone when he says he wasn't out to head hunt,
    but the intent was to go for the body and he did commit a foul
    which resulted in a serious injury.  Too many guys are having
    to wear goggles because of flagrant elbows.  It should be cracked
    down upon across the league.

    In response to JD's supposition, there's little doubt in my mind 
   that there would have been more of an outcry if it had been Laimbeer
   fouling KJ or Dee Brown or Mark Price or John Stockton. If for no other 
   reason than that (right or wrong) it would have been perceived as the 
   latest in a long series of thuggish incidents by Bill and none of the 
   'victims' JD named (again right or wrong) have Isaiah's reputation for 
   confrontation and it would be easier to feel sympathy for them.
    
    

    Hawk 
    
    RWIW, Malone has a rep for 'physical' play.  He's  no gentle giant.
    
    It's typical NBA fantasketball double standards at play.  I commend
    Tommy B. for being honest about the perception if that play was by
    Laimbeer, or against someone other than Isiah.  
    
    They fined him and suspended him, so they considered it an especially
    hard and flagrant foul.  That's the bottom line.  We'll never know
    whether or not Karl wanted to do what he did - only he knows.  I just
    hope that the nexted time folks are SURE that Rodman or Salley or Isiah
    or Laimbeer did something that they give them the same benefit of the
    doubt.  
    
    Bill Cartwright has hurt more people with his elbows in his career then
    all the Pistons combined.   
    
    JD

    
    On a more positive note for the Pistons.  Rodman was named
    NBA player of the week.  Over the last 5 games he has played
    all but 3 minutes, is averaging 20+ rebounds per game and I think
    16+ points per game.
    
    \pjb

Here's a summary of Rodman's performance per game, starting with his most
recent and working back toward the beginning of the season.  He certainly has
been a monster lately, but he's really racking up the minutes.

j.

Team Player             MN FG AT FT AT RO RD RT AS PF ST TO PTS BS 3P AT
 DET Dennis Rodman      45  5 18  2  4 10 10 20  0  2  0  1  13  2  1  1
 DET Dennis Rodman      48  5  8  2  3  5 13 18  1  2  0  2  13  3  1  1
 DET Dennis Rodman      47  8 11  4  4  5 20 25  2  3  3  3  20  2  0  1
 DET Dennis Rodman      48  6  8  3  4  2 16 18  0  5  1  0  15  2  0  1
 DET Dennis Rodman      47  7 15  2  2  9 14 23  1  3  0  0  17  1  1  4
 DET Dennis Rodman      46  2 10  0  0  9 12 21  2  2  0  2   5  2  1  3
 DET Dennis Rodman      39  6  9  1  2  9 12 21  0  3  0  3  14  2  1  3
 DET Dennis Rodman      30  2  7  2  4  9 10 19  3  4  0  2   6  0  0  1
 DET Dennis Rodman      45  5 10  1  1  4 13 17  1  1  2  0  11  2  0  0
 DET Dennis Rodman      29  4 11  0  0  3  6  9  2  3  1  3   8  0  0  0
 DET Dennis Rodman      40  4  8  0  0  4  8 12  1  1  1  1   8  0  0  0
 DET Dennis Rodman      28  7  9  0  0  5  6 11  1  5  1  3  14  1  0  0
 DET Dennis Rodman      38  5 10  0  0  7  9 16  3  2  1  0  10  0  0  1
 DET Dennis Rodman      34  3  6  0  2  3 12 15  1  2  2  1   6  0  0  1
 DET Dennis Rodman      38  2  8  3  4  6 13 19  0  4  0  4   7  2  0  1
 DET Dennis Rodman      39  4  6  0  0  8 11 19  3  3  0  0   8  0  0  2
 DET Dennis Rodman      36  5  7  3  6  7 10 17  4  4  1  2  13  1  0  0
 DET Dennis Rodman      34  4  9  1  3  6  8 14  2  3  1  1   9  0  0  1
 DET Dennis Rodman      40  4  8  0  0  8 12 20  5  4  1  1   8  0  0  1
 DET Dennis Rodman      40  6  8  6  8  9  4 13  3  3  0  1  20  0  2  3
 DET Dennis Rodman      30  2  7  0  0  6  6 12  2  1  3  1   4  2  0  0
 DET Dennis Rodman      27  3  5  0  0  4  4  8  1  1  1  1   6  0  0  0
 DET Dennis Rodman      20  0  2  0  0  4 11 15  6  3  1  1   0  0  0  0
 DET Dennis Rodman      37  4  5  1  3  4 13 17  2  5  0  4   9  0  0  0
 DET Dennis Rodman      26  2  4  1  2  2  3  5  1  2  0  4   5  1  0  0
Team Player             MN FG AT FT AT RO RD RT AS PF ST TO PTS BS 3P AT

    Probably will continue to until Salley returns.
    

    I've always said Malone was a thug.  Readers of CELTICS will vouch for
    me on that.
    
    FWIW, he has done this to KJ too and I objected to it just as much as I
    did in this case.
    
    You'll never see Malone try this to someone over 6'6".  When he threw
    KJ to the floor, Majerle went after him and the Mailman backed down
    like the oversized wimp that he is.
    
    Mike

    Suns swept the season series with Detroit for the second year in a
    row.  The game in Detroit (Monday after Christmas) was especially
    sweet!
    
    My Dad (who grew up in Pontiac and is a major Detroit fan) was in town
    so we settled down to a good ole fashion boast fest.  It didn't look to
    good in the 3rd quarter when the good guys fell behind by 18 points. 
    But then Cotton put in a lineup of 4 guards and 1 forward and rattled
    off 19 unanswered points and ended up winning by 10!
    
    Needless to say, Dad roots for the good guys now too. ;-)
    
    Mike

    Yeah, but how many... nah never mind... (ha ha)
    

>                -< Oh sure, you dad's a Wardlevane... (ha ha) >-
    
    well he still has the Tigers, Lions, and Dead Wings.  We just showed
    him the light ;-)
    
    ...and the Suns have only been to the dance once, but they don't have 
    a ring
    
    YET!

    Hey, fix that, the Red Wings are leading their division...
    
    Yeah, they came close in that dance.  I had the Garfield Heard
    turnaround jumper down when I was growing up.  Too bad they
    didn't take it.

    Well, if this weekend wasn't an indication that the Pistons aren't
    a top tier team anymore, I don't know what is.  Blown out in Chicago
    and came up short at crunch time at the Gahden. (thanks Nazz!!!)
    Without Edwards they don't have a guy to get in Parish's face or
    a guy to go to inside to relieve the pressure on the guards.  Couldn't
    believe the crap Douglas threw in and dropped and how hot Joe Kleine
    got.  If you can't shut down a Joe Kliene, you have not right to win.
    They need a big man from somewhere.  If it means making a big deal to
    get one, they need to do it.  I think they're still in the top 8-10
    teams in the league, but they won't contend the way they are now.

What is it that is carved into the Worm's haid?  I had the volume down, and 
wasn't paying enough attention to tell on Sunday.

    Larry Bird is just another player if he was black... :-}
    If you can read this then I've got you blocked out.. :-}
    The space for rent... :-}
    Where in the world is Carman Sandiego...:-}
    Mike Tyson is too big for his britches...:-}
    
    
    REK

    
    Rodman had the phrase "Bada Bing" carved into his cranium.
    It's from some fast food commercial or somin'.
    
    
    Steve

>    Rodman had the phrase "Bada Bing" carved into his cranium.
>    It's from some fast food commercial or somin'.
    
Bada Bing....

That's Andrew Dice Clay.  As in "Bada Boom, Bada Bing".....


hth,
'Saw

    	If Rodman thought like Midnight, and had the room on his haid
    he could carve out "Three out of FourPeat".
    
    				/Don

    Not enough room on da scalp...
    
    Besides who thinks like Midnight?  Who wants to?  (ha ha)
    

'Saw, during the Celts-Pistons game on Stuper Sunday they showed 
Rodman's haid and then they showed a clip of some greasy, totally
Paulie clone, jamming fast food into a bag, and he was a saying
"fries, bada bing" etc.. Maybe they were slippin a bit in da
research department.


Steve

    
    He did manage to get 32 rebounds.....in one game recently.
    
	Too bad he can't shoot free throws...or the J.

    He is up to 64% , which is a big improvement from the line.
    He is also shooting 54% from the field.

    54% from the field isn't that good when you remember that most of his
    shots are layups and dunks. He doesn't seem to shoot many times a game.

    Well, since the league leaders are around 60% and he's now at 55.7%.
    a lot of people must be in the same boat.  Full time players ahead of 
    him are Buck Williams (61.6), Daugherty (57.5), Barkley (57.1), 
    Cage (56.8),Thorpe (56.7), and Robinson (56.5).
    
    Williams has 50 less attempts, Cage 60 fewer.  The rest are all-stars.
    Then again, so is Dennis...
    

    Out of that group, only Barkley, Thorpe, and Robinson shoot outside the
    paint.
    
    

    The Heiser-man... on a rampage.
    
    He's not paid to shoot outside the paint, he's paid to get rebounds
    and play defense.  They've got enough shooters between Dumars, Thomas,
    Aguirre, Woolridge, Laimbeer.... when he does shoot, he's among the
    leaders... he won the defensive player of the year, he's at an all-time
    pace for rebounds...  I'll take him despite his faults.

    I never said he was a bad player.  I'd love to have him on the Suns,
    but his points and high FG% are the result of gargabe points and
    offensive rebounds.  
    
    Guys like him and Kevin Willis are more impressive because they have to
    work for their points (i.e., they're not a major option in the
    offense).
    
    Mike

    Mr. Rodman was named NBA player of the month for January...

    I wouldn't call points scored off of rebounds garbage points.  A lot
    more work goes into scoring those kind of points than the baskethanging
    fastbreaking types exhibit.

    
    Often times, players who are not scorers are referred to as defensive
    specialists.  Some times this is true, more times than not (in my
    opinion) it is not true.  However, in Rodman's case, the guy is a 
    defensive force.  He is a force on the boards, can put it back up and
    in off the offensive glass, and he plays with great enthusiasm.
    
    I'd love to see him starting along with Nance for the Cavs.
    
    One weakness is his free throw shooting, but he is improving on that.
    

    Interesting article yesterday from yesterday's USA Today on Rodman.
    Right now, he's averaging 18.1 rpg, highest since Wilt did 18.6
    in 72-73.
    
    This year, a team averages 92 shots per game and makes 47%.  Quick
    math means there are 97-98 chances for a rebound a game.  In Wilt's
    era, teams took 100 shots per game and made 45%, or about 110 chances
    for a rebound.  It also points out Wilt was 6 inches taller and played
    3 minutes a game more.
    
    It would be the largest increase for average rpg since they started
    going by average and not total rebounds in 69-70.  Also the largest
    percentage of difference from the previous year (Robinson averaged
    13.0 last year).  He gets 21% of the GAME's rebounds.  Jordan gets
    14% of the game's points on average.
    
    

    Speaking of the Pistons, Isaiah was on Sesame Street yesterday
    afternoon...it was a brief segment in which Isaiah dribbled a
    basketball, and then Elmo asked Isaiah to dribble him.  (For those
    noters in the Boston area, Channel 2 will rerun this episode at 7:00
    tomorrow morning...the bit with Isaiah is about ten minutes into the
    program.)
    
    
    py

    Only after Elmo puts on his Larry Bird shirt...

    Nah Walt,
    Onlyt after Elmo puts on his John Paxson shirt. Then Isiah slaps
    him upside the haid and gives him the sardonic smile.  8^)
    
    MikeL
    

    re .288
    
    You're welcome ... :-)
    
    I'd love to see what % of his team's boards Rodman has, and compare it
    to Wilt's numbers in 1962 (when he grabbed 27.2 per game for a season
    !)
    
    BTW, Wilt holds the single game record with *55* ...
    
    
    And it was against Bahstin ....
    
    I wonder if Slusher and Denny will come up with 'evidence' that Russell
    was on the DL that night ?
    
    Doc

    Doc,
    Bet ya it wasn't during the playoffs.
    
    HTH
    MikeL
    
    

    	Took the woids right out of my mouth MikeL.  Hey Doc if you
    think 55 rebounds is something how about 11 titles in 13 years!
    Russ needs a customed made G-String.
    
    				/Don

       Who won the champeenship that year Doc?
                                      Denny

Also of those 55 I'd venture to guess 30 of them were stickbacks on his own
misses...

mike

>Also of those 55 I'd venture to guess 30 of them were stickbacks on his own
>misses...
>
>mike

55 is NOTHING.

One night, when I was out partying with Hawk, I must've picked up 
70 or so of his rebounds.  He'd take a drink of beer, put the mug down,
and I'd rebound and finish it....


Simple...


8^)

�    I'd love to see what % of his team's boards Rodman has, and compare it
�    to Wilt's numbers in 1962 (when he grabbed 27.2 per game for a season
�    !)

Rodman has about 40%.

j.

    Speaking of picking up rebounds
    
    
    
    Cain we mention --dan'l in this note?
    
    ;^)
    
    grins,
    Kev
    

    Sorry Doc, didn't realize that's what you were trying to tell me
    yesterday... IF you did...
    

    So Denny, it's good to hear from ya, since you got reeeel quiet when
    the Rockets wiped out the Septics !
    
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA !!!!!

    Almost as quiet as you've been about the Lackers since Sunday!

       Well, I'm STILL looking for Doc's explaination of his 6ers TWO (2)
    losses to the mighty Nets lasted week.
       BTW, anyone know if ANY of 00:00:00s teams has a better record than
    the lowly 'septics'?
                                     Denny

>       BTW, anyone know if ANY of 00:00:00s teams has a better record than
>    the lowly 'septics'?
    
    Only if he has added new teams to his fandom...
    
    1. Chicago     .808
    2. Portland    .706
    3. Golden St.  .688
    4. Utah        .660
    5. Cleveland   .660
    6. New York    .647
    7. Phoenix     .623
    8. Detroit     .577
    9. Boston      .569
       LA Lakers   .569
       San Antonio .569
    

    
    Golden State plays in his town of birth I believe.  

    Cute .. the Lakers have the SAME record as Boston.
    
    At least Denny is trying to cover his well-worked-over arse for a
    change ... heh heh heh ...

       Cover what? Worked over how? Who won the champeenship the year Wilt
    had his 55 reb game? You KNOW the chances are about 80-90% it was
    'Bahstun' that won it, dontcha Doc?
                                  Denny

    Denny,
    If'n it was 'tween 60-66, chances are 100% it was da Celts.
    
    MikeL
    

    Thought this has been over rat-holed, I'd venture to say that
    individually, Wilt Chamberlain was a better hoop player than Bill
    Russell.   For a team, Russell's Celts were better than Wilt's teams.
    
    Given the makeup of the teams, I've always felt the Celts had a better
    team - deeper than the Wilt teams.  Even the Lakers of Wilt, West and
    Baylor didn't have the depth of the Celts teams.
    
    The arguement is analagous of who was better:  Joe DiMaggio or Ted
    Williams?   Williams has the better stats, but Joe's stats are damn
    good and his team won a zillion champeenships to NONE for Ted - and in
    Ted's only shot at the big dance, he hit .200.   
    
    If you were starting a team from scratch, IMO, you couldn't go wrong
    starting with Jolting Joe or Ted (in their prime, not now you
    knucklehaids).  ANd I'd also feel you couldn't go wrong with either
    Russell or Wilt (or Kareem, FWIW).
    
    The one big difference I see between Wilt and Bill is if you could
    magically transfer them to today's game.  Wilt, IMO, would still be a
    force and an all-star.  Russell, IMO, would be a Rodman type player -
    defender and rebounder, with accidental offense.  He'd be a power
    forward.  He'd be a stud like Rodman or Buck WIlliams.  Wilt would be,
    with Mr. Robinson and Ewing, the cream of pivot men.  
    
    The Wilt/Russell arguement is moot.  Even if Wilt outplayed Russell in
    every game, IMO, the Celts STILL would have been champeens given the
    makeup of the team.  
    
    I know to Celts fans, clinging to that memory - which is much like
    Yankee fans cling to the gloried teams - it the tantamount attestment
    to their  loyalty to the green.  I can almost predict who will comment,
    and what the comments will be.   
    
    JD

 pardon me while I chuckle JD but obviously I can't let the last two paragraphs
 just hang there. If you feel the argument is moot why bring it up? Just to
 tweak a few greenies? Given the closness of the final outcome in those series
 (how many went 7 games? how many games were decided by 2 or less?) it only
 stands to reason that had Wilt been able to dominate Russell like he did
 most everyone else then the Celtics wouldn't have won as many championships.
 In which case the argument would really be moot.

 If Russell were playing today yeah he might play PF but given that he dominated
 supposedly the greatest player this side of Magic/Michael/Larry/Kareem, I'd
 venture to say he could play center too. Sheer determination would allow him
 to succeed....

    Let's do Walt and the rest of the Piston fans a favor and move this
    overused rathole over the Celtics topic, OK gang?

      it's been discussed before, what's left to say?
                                      Denny

    As I recall, there is NO Celtics topic here Mac!
    
    Schep that!!!!!
    
    HtH,fwiw,tysn, etc......
    
    Kev
    

    Kev, schep this.  Topic 90.

    MtM,
    
    Try aimin before shootin, that's a "anti-celtic, BASH" note!  Close
    but not quite!
    
    sclhjrlasp,
    Kev
    

    Big win for the Pistons last night. Dumars was superb, he had several
    tre's, an awesome behind the back pass to Isiah, and tough defense on
    Jordan, including the stopper at the end. Great game from Rodman
    including a couple sweet jams near the end. He had trouble with Pippen
    though. 
    
    The entire game it seemed like Detroit expected to lose. Everytime they
    got close, it was as if they knew they weren't supposed to be there and
    they'd make a stupid play. Even at the end, they just about gave the
    game back to Chicago until Dumars held off Jordan.
    
    So much of winning in the NBA is mental toughness. The Pistons had
    forgotten that they can be just as good as Chicago or anyone else. You
    have to take the court expecting to win. 
    
    Here's hoping this is the turnaround the Pistons have been desparately
    in need of. The team is still there, all they need back is the attitude 
    that everone but Rodman has lost much of this year.
    
    -dennis                         

    Rodman for MVP?

    I like it.  Did you see him can that three last night?  He certainly
    enjoys the game more than anyone else in the league. 

    Ok, time ot bring this topic back to life now that the real season is
    getting under way...
    
    Rodman deserves MVP consideration, but won't get it.
    
    Oakley got fined for bopping Zeke in the haid with a forearm bash. 
    Zeke was not fined, so he must have been a good boy....
    
    Still got a shot at the #4 seed, big game in the Palace thised week...
    

�    Oakley got fined for bopping Zeke in the haid with a forearm bash. 
�    Zeke was not fined, so he must have been a good boy....
    
    Seems like anyone who touches Zeke these days is going to draw a
    fine...

    	Hey Walt, despite numerous uses as a toilet paper substitute
    I still have that Dennis Rodman shirt.  Maybe we could have another
    little bet again this year if the Pistons play the Celtics?
    
    				/Don

    	Once Mighty Pistons Now Coming Apart at Seams.
    
    	Parting is such sweet sorrow: You've got to give Detroit's Bad Boys
    their due.  
    	Well, you don't have to, but they're on their way out.  It can't
    hurt now.
    	They worked with was available to them.  They weren't from some
    chi-chi vacation destination but the frozen heart of slump-bound
    industrial America.  Fate did not deliver Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, yearning
    to return to the balmy days of his youth, but Bill Laimbeer, yearning
    only to get out of Cleveland.
    	They were intelligent, professional, tough-minded  and
    businesslike.
    	On the other hand, you can't say they did a lot for basketball as
    an art form.  Their gift to the game was developing techniques to shoot
    down the stars.  After the Pistons' second title, Dallas Coach Richie
    Adubato showed his players a highlight reel of Laimbeer taking charges
    against the Trail Blazers in the finals.  If the Pistons had won again,
    teams might have started signing Sumo wrestlers.
    	Two years later, they're an aging, quarrelsome group coming apart
    at the seams.
    	The Flint (Mich.) Journal, citing a front-office source and two
    unnamed players, says Coach Chuck Daly has already told the team he
    won't be back next season.
    	The old tug-of-war between Daly and GM Jack McCloskey is out in the
    open.
    	Pistons players, siding with Daly, are incensed that McCloskey
    signed Orlando Woolridge to a $2.4-million extension but couldn't find
    the money to keep Vinnie Johnson or James Edwards.
    	"Basically, we have a situation here where the general manager
    doesn't like the head coach," Laimbeer told the Journal last week.
    	"He brings in a guy [Ron Rothstein, Daly's old assistant, given a
    $125,000 contract as a Piston broadcaster] to oversee the coaches. . . 
    	"Why couldn't [McCloskey] give Vinnie and James a little more
    money?  Vinnie had to get down on his knees and ask Jack for money. 
    All James wanted was to make more money than William Bedford, and they
    traded him away.
    	"Our organization has deteriorated to the point where it's every
    man for himself."  
    	Goodby, thanks for coming, don't let the door hit you in the rear
    end.
        
    from LA Times

Any more ino on the possibility of Daly going to San Antonio as coach and
GM after this season?

Or just another rumor in MoTown?

TTom

    re         <<< Note 72.322 by AXIS::ROBICHAUD "CokeIsTheRealThing-UhHuh" >>>

     >>	Hey Walt, despite numerous uses as a toilet paper substitute
    >>  I still have that Dennis Rodman shirt.
    
        Wait a minute, /Don. If I understand this correctly, you have used
    a T-shirt as toilet paper to &%$# your ^%#(*  several times and you
    still wear it?
    
    Rich
    

    	Don't worry Rich, I wash in Tide.
    
    				/Don

    It's a cool shirt too... 
    
    Looks like the C's aren't gonna get the chance to play the Pistons
    unless it's for the conference title.  I'd rather play the Knicks
    than the Celtics anyway right now, so I hope you guys can at least
    beat Miami..
    
    The stuff in that article is nothing new.  That could have been printed
    last September.  And the players are right- although they miss Edwards
    a lot more than Johnson.  Woolridge would have been good if they dealt
    Aguirre but that never happened.  They need a post up man/enforcer in
    the middle.
    
    Piston fans can at least admit their team won't win it and need to
    rebiuild...
    

    Hey Pistons' fans,
    Was Aguirre always such a a#^hole? He loves them forearm shivers
    and shoulder block in the paint. Sure looked tough banging the
    BBall down 'specially for the camera. Nice scowl, you classless
    jerk, must be a friend of Isaih. If he wants to be tough but not dirty,
    he should emulate Rodman. That man cain play.
    
    MikeL
    

    He was like that in Dallas, don't blame that on the Pistons.  He was
    not the most popular guy in Mavericks history...
    
    
    

    The Mavs threw a party when Aguirre left ...

    	I'll say this much for the Pistons.  Despite an off year they
    ain't tanking games to get into the Shaq lottery like a certain
    left coast team who started a losing streak right after O'Neil
    announced he was leaving school.
    
    				/Don

    Hoo boy, Pistons vs Knicks (hopefully) Goodbye NY.
    
    BTW,Walt, I don't blame the Pistons at all fer Aguirre, he was a
    joik at DePaul ( from local Chitown sources). Jest yankin' yo' disco-
    lovin' butt! 8^)
    
    We'll be stayin' alive on Monday!
    Should I wear mah lime green leisure suit wif white bead necklace and
    cream white platform shoes und mood ring! 
    
    MikeL
    

    What you hear is not a test...
    Despite what ya sayin' may be in jest...
    Pistons close out at Chicago,
    (I hope Monday there ain't no snow...)
    
    Then we probably play the Knicks,
    Hopefully they'll throw up some bricks...
    I'm not worried if it's the Knicks we're facin'
    I mean who else would have shooters named Mason?
    I say "CLANG", there's Wilkins off the rim
    I say "CLANG", their hopes are dim...
    I know Jimmy Clang's on the other coast,
    but we like hot butter on our breakfast toast
    
    Now Marky Mark, Zeke and all the guys
    are the ones most people in here despise,
    But one thing have to realize and don't forget it,
    the have two rings and don't forget it...
    They some experience and like to play "D"
    They try real hard and that's enough for me...
    
    
    I don't know 'bout you MikeL but I'll tell you what,
    you won't see ME Monday wif a disco-lovin' butt...
    It's lunchtime here but I'll be back,
    Pistons may not unless they pick up Shaq'...
    
    
    Skettlee be-bop, hip-hop scooby-doo....
    

    	Pretty good Walt.  It's much better than that pathetic Portland
    Trailblazer rap song called Busted Hoops or something.
    
    				/Don

    just picked it up as I rollerskated through the parking lot while I had
    da boom box on my shoulder...

    Well, he can do it... (see the p-name?)
    

    Pistons are out... yeah, I'm sure I'll get a lot of sympathy on this
    one, but I'll stick by them.  If I could deal with the John Shumate,
    John Mengelt, George Trapp, Leon Douglas and Eric Money years, I can
    deal with this too...
    
    What was the scoop on withdrawing the T on Mason?  Anyone else hear
    what the deal was there?  Something was fishy on that one and that was
    at the critical part of the game.  However, the Pistons went cold other
    than Zeke, they had to pull Rodman out to get some offense, the Knicks
    took over the boards and that was all she wrote.  
    
    Time to regroup.  Time to find a center.  I'd be surprised if they
    traded the 3 all-stars, but anyone else is probably fair game.  Dumars
    may even go for the right price.  Drafting 19th isn't going to do the
    job.
    
    And thanks Chuck, for all you did.  Even if McCloskey can't see it, the
    fans did.  Good luck if you wind up in NJ, behind the mike or whereever
    you go...
    
    
    -Walt

>                       -< The era is officially over... >-

What's the word with Daly? Is he going, going, gong? From the sounds of
it McCloskey should be the one to leave.

TTom

    I think he's gone... he more or less told the team "good luck in the
    future" after the game yesterday.  McCloskey said he had no comment,
    Chuck will make a statement in the near future...
    

    Hey Walt, you're probably right, that the era is over, but it was a
    great era.  Back-to-back, and a bad call away from 3 in a row.  Tough
    basketball, not that fantasketball crap.  Damn glad to have Detroit in
    the Eastern Conference...
    
    You may now go into hibernation for the next 30 years...  :-)
    
    Hawk
    

Peter Vecesy (sp) reported that Daly will announce his resignation today.  
Nothing on the New Jersey rumor, just that he was through with Detroit.

Daly did have a great run with the Pistons, if I were him I'd get out of 
the coaching rat race, and take something a little easier like announcing.

=Bob=

It's official. Daly just had a press conference and he's outta there.

No replacement was named.

TTom

    Rothchilds (sp?) Coach of the Heat is rumored to be the first choice...
    
    REK

    Ron Rothstein is the one you are thinking of.  He was the first coach
    of the Heat until he was fired and replaced by Kevin Loughery.  He was
    an assistant with the Pistons before going to Miami.  I think he went
    back to the Pistons after being dumped by Miami.
    
    John

    Rothstein is the Pistons' color man on the broadcasts now.  He and Gene
    Littles (formerly of the Hornets) are the two main candidates.
    
    	--dan'l

    Look for Brendan Suhr (ex asst. coach) to get the head coach job in
    Denver...
    

    	I'll have to wait 'till nexted year to make Walt wear my Larry
    Bird hat.  8^(
    
    				/Don

    Sorry /Don, youze guys should have made Bird play more I guess...

    
    <<< Note 72.341 by SASE::SZABO >>>
    
    -< Cain't deny the greatness of the '80s Pistons... >-

    Says who, Hawk ? OK, I deny it - there, I said it !
    
    � Back-to-back, and a bad call away from 3 in a row.  Tough basketball, 
    � not that fantasketball crap.
    
    Oh, puuuhhhllleeeaaassseee ! The Pissed-Ons (tm ?) have Passed On, and we
    revel in their demise !
    
    ((:^))
    
    - acp

    Yeah yeah yeah, whatever you say...
    

    there's turmoil in the Motor City:
    
    - Rothstein was named head coach.
    - McCloskey steps down.
    - Rodman wants out of Detroit.  Says he won't play there without Daly.
    
    Mike

    Rothstein is a good chice.. Don't expect miracles too quick..
    McCloskey got lucky with a couple of picks and had a coach who got the
    MOST of what he had to work with...
    Put Rodman in Sacramento... Minny..... He would realize what was going
    on in Detriot...
    
    REK

    Rothstein or Suhr would have been the best choice IMHO.  They've been
    around long enough.
    
    I hope McCloskey goes to Minny.  Have a fun time.  Hope Chuck becomes
    the GM.
    
    Rodman thought Rothstein was taking pot shots at Daly on the air. 
    He'll work things out with him.  Only way Dennis wants to be traded is
    if Daly's a coach somewhere else.  Maybe if he goes to Philly, we could
    work a Rodman deal for Sir Charles...
    

    	I think Detriot� should trade Rodman to the Celtics.  What the
    heck he already has a Ford dealership on Route 1.
    
    				/Don

    Hey, you guys already had a shot at VJ and didn't want him...

    I think that's one of the best moves (or non-moves) the Celtics ever
    made! ;^)
    
    Glen.

    McCloskey's moved on to Minnesota... Later dude...
    

    > <<< Note 72.338 by ROYALT::ASHE "The roof�, the roof is on fire..." >>>
    >                   -< The era is officially over... >-
    >And thanks Chuck, for all you did.  Even if McCloskey can't see it, the
    >fans did.  Good luck if you wind up in NJ, behind the mike or whereever
    >you go...
    
    
    >-Walt
    
    Can I officially say good luck in NJ now?  Wonder if a Coleman/Anderson
    for Rodman/Aguirre deal would work...

    I'll take the Polynice for McLean/Bedford picks.  They owe us for
    Edwards...
    
    

    Petty Walt, what happened to love and togetherness ? :-) It was funny
    as hell on WEEI as they broadcasters first speculated on McLean falling
    out of the first round, then on how he makes the perfect Bad
    Boy/Laimbeer successor.
    
    Now, he's a Clipper ... hmmm .... first Gary Grant is as good as gone,
    now Norman ?
    
    The Rockets took Robert Horry - if he has a real outside shot, then
    pencil him in at SF. But he looks like he has "Otis Thorpe-clone"
    written all over him ...

    Went out the window when they traded Edwards for Jeff Martin...
    Miami won't get Salley for Burton.

    Dennis Rodman is claiming he's thinking of retirement to work with
    his excavating business because he wants a challenge...
    

    
     Seen this commercial yet, Walt ?
    
     
     Disciple: Master, what happens if we're bad ?
    
     Master: You go to Detroit !

    Yeah, I saw it yesterday... all wrong... everyone knows Detriot(tm)
    is no place for wimps!!! I'd guess they'd go to LA or Boston...
    

Article 12037 of clari.sports.top:
Xref: nntpd.lkg.dec.com clari.sports.basketball:6568 clari.sports.top:12037
Path: nntpd.lkg.dec.com!news.crl.dec.com!deccrl!enterpoop.mit.edu!eff!world!uunet!looking!clarinews
From: [email protected] (LES KJOS)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball,clari.sports.top
Subject: NBA player denied entry to refugee center
Keywords: basketball, men's professional, us border areas, special interest
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 93 15:52:57 PST
Location: michigan, florida
ACategory: sports
Slugword: bkp-polynice
Priority: major
Format: regular
ANPA: Wc: 630/668; Id: z6132; Sel: xxsk; Adate: 1-5-645pes; V: sked
Approved: [email protected]
Codes: yskprxx., &skprmi., &skprfl., ynjbrxx.
Lines: 73

	MIAMI (UPI) -- Olden Polynice, a Haitian-born NBA player, was stopped
by armed federal officers Tuesday when he tried to enter a detention
center to visit hunger-striking refugees.
	The 7-foot player for the Detroit Pistons made two attempts to get
into the the Krome Avenue center for Haitians, once by car and once on
foot, but was denied entry to the sprawling facility on the edge of the
Everglades.
	Polynice had asked through official channels to visit the center but
was told his request had been forwarded to Washington. When he and
attorney Cheryl Little, a refugee advocate who has three clients in the
center, drove to the gate, guards stopped them because he had forgotten
his identification.
	Wearing T-shirt and shorts in a steady rain, Polynice returned to
another car in the parking lot for his identification and decided to
walk the 400 yards from the center entrance to the security gate.
Halfway along the road he and reporters walking with him were stopped by
a van with its siren blaring and told through a loudspeaker to return to
the parking lot.
	Polynice refused and asked why he was not allowed inside.
	``What are you all scared of?'' he yelled. ``What are you hiding?''
	``Return to the visitors area (the parking lot). You are blocking the
traffic. Please go out,'' came the reply from Immigration and
Naturalization Service officers.
	Polynice stepped onto the grass along the road and refused to move.
There was never any threat of a physical confrontation nor any attempt
to arrest Polynice.
	Little and her assistant were allowed to enter the center to talk to
her clients. After an hour, Polynice returned to the parking lot, and
when Little finished talking with her clients they left.
	Polynice said he wanted to call attention to the hunger strikers, who
are protesting what they say is unequal treatment by immigration
authorities. Some have been in custody for ``months and months and
months,'' Little said.
	They began the hunger strike after the release of a planeload of
Cubans who defected in Miami last week. The Cubans spent less than 36
hours at Krome.
	A 1966 federal law gives Cubans special immigration status because
they are fleeing communism. Haitian refugees are more often considered
economic refugees and frequently are detained while their political
asylum claims are considered.
	``The Haitians risk their lives to get here and then when they do get
here, they're put in jail,'' Polynice said. ``The Cubans hijack a plane
and they are let go. It has a lot to do with skin color. They treat one
group of people one way and the other group another way. What would
happen to a Haitian who hijacked a plane and came here?
	``There are Haitians who have been in here three years. This is
supposed to be a holding center, but it's being used as a jail.''
	Polynice, 28, was born in Haiti and flew to New York when he was 7 to
join his parents, who had emigrated earlier. He starred at the
University of Virginia and entered the NBA in 1987 with the Seattle
SuperSonics.
	He was traded to the Los Angeles Clippers in the 1990-91 season and
then went to the Pistons last year. He is on injured reserve with a
broken hand.
	Polynice had organized a fund-raiser for the Haitians in Los Angeles
Aug. 30, but said he wanted to do more.
	``I don't want to talk the talk,'' he said. ``I want to walk the
walk.''
	He said he ordinarily wouldn't travel with the club while he was
injured but he managed the trip to Miami for Tuesday night's game with
the Heat so he could try to help the refugees.
	Polynice attended the game at Miami Arena and planned to leave with
the team. He said he hoped to make another effort to visit the center.
--
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re: Polynice

Saw a report on this on CNN.  I heartily applaud his efforts.

So as not to start a rat hole on Haitian detainees, suffice it to say that 
it is good to see an athlete doing some good.

=Bob=

     re .367
    
     I with you, Bob. Nice to see an athlete make good use of his
     social prominence.