Conference 7.286::sports_91

    That is kinda strange how they figure out who will be home. The Pats
    played the Cardinals AT Phoenix this year, so you'd think the 'birds
    would visit Foxboro next year. Why the home and home with Denver? I
    thought they only played teams in their own division twice in a season.
    
    Any news on the grass field? It seemed like a done deal, but I read
    that the Patriots were "reconsidering" They would be crazy not to go
    with it, but then again, they are a "colorful" team...
    
    Tom

�    Why the home and home with Denver? I
�    thought they only played teams in their own division twice in a season.
    
Tom,

When you finish 5th in one of the 5 team divisions, you play a home
and home with the other 5th place finisher the following season....

hth,
'Saw

    Oh Gawd -- I kin jest see the junk-noting that will ensue from a
    home&home with the Donks coming now......
    
    A&W
    

    	As a season ticket holder I enjoyed the game with the Midgets.
     40,000 New Yorkers showed up for a party and got a football game
    instead.  Other than the Miami and Seattle games it was nice to see
    four quarters where the team actually showed some emotion.  If the
    Pats played the Giants every year the money generated on the Mass
    Pike (tolls, drunken driver arrests) could pull the state out of
    debt.
    
    				/Don

AP, Scripps Howard News Service. 

FOXBORO, MASS-- New England Patroits Def lineman Garin Veris reportedly was 
involced in a scuffle with hecklers in a resturant shortly after the teams
final game. 
Veris punched an abusive New York Giants fan (Mike Childs ?)Sunday after the man 
and his companions directed racial slurs and sexually explicit insults at Veris 
and four teammates. 
no complaints or charges have been filed. 

 

    	Gee that's a shame...
    
    	A shame Veris didn't put the S.O.B. in Mass General...

Too bad Zeke wasn't there.  The outcome might have been a 
whole lot different.....

heh heh heh,
'Saw

       Gee /Don, looks like Dins is still in stunned silence from Sunday,
    eh?
                               Denny

    Well the Pats made it official - Rod Rust is canned.
    
    They haven't fired hsi staff yet, their fate will be up to the new
    coach.
    
    =Bob=
    

    
    	So who will the pats pick in the draft?
    
    B.A.

    Impatience is wonderful, isn't it.  If the Steelers had been as
    impatient with Chuck Noll, they wouldn't have 4 Super Bowl rings.
    
    I'm not saying that Rust would turn the Pats into a powerhouse but when
    a guy inherits someone elses garbage, ie rust and the Pats, is it fair
    to give him just one year and then lower the boom.
    
    I didn't watch the Pats, except for the Steeler game, this year and
    I've heard that Rust made some bonehead decisions, but, Noll didn't
    exactly establish himself as a brain surgeon in his 1-13 inauguration
    to the NFL in 1969.
    
    Kiam:==Modell:==Steinbrenner  ????
    
    JaKe
    

    I'm going to the press conference today at which Dick MacPherson will
    be announced as the new Patriots coach.
    
    Mac has been the coach at Syracuse from 1981-1990 and was linebacker
    coach under Sam Rutigliano at Cleveland from 1978-80.  Prior to that,
    he was head coach at the University of Massachusetts from 1971-77.
    
    Mac is a man who is like a second father to me and I'm so thrilled
    today it's beyond words.  Ever since it was announced yesterday, I've
    been walking on air.  For him to get this opportunity and for me to
    have a chance to work with him again have both made me so excited and
    happy.  Not only that, but for what he's going to mean to the team
    guarantees improvement.  He'll make a difference on the field but more
    than that, his enthusiasm and energy will make a 180 degree difference
    in the perceptions of the fans and the media here in New England.  He's
    no Raymond Berry and he's no Rod Rust.
    
    I don't think I'm going to need a car to get to Foxboro today.
    
    John

    
    I thought the announcement of MacPherson was kind of stange because of
    his age. I think he's up there in his 50s and I don't think he'll be
    around long enough for the type of rebuilding program that the Patriots
    are going to go through.
    
    Dennis
    

    Mac is 60 but has the energy of someone 20 years younger.  He's not
    going to be around for 20 years but he will be around long enough to
    finish the rebuilding.
    
    John

    So how do you feel about MacPherson, John?  Ha ha... I'm happy for you?
    
    I'd just like to be the first to ask if you can set me up with his
    daughter Elle... 
    
    -Walt

    
    EXCELLENT move by the patriots!!!!!!!  I had mixed emotions about this
    deal.  Being a Syracuse grad, I would like to see MacPherson stay at
    Syracuse because he has really done a lot for their program, and he was
    considered the "father" figure of the university.  Everybody loved him!
    Yet, being a Patriots fan also, I suppose if he was to go anywhere,
    this is where I want him to be.
    The only thing that people have questioned about him is his age.  
    MacPherson has more energy that probably all of us put together.  He's
    always on the side line jumping up and down, cheering his players on,
    and showing a lot of "positive" emotion which I think is very important
    in the game.  Not only is he a good coach (36-8-3) in the last 4 years.
    But he is one hell of a guy.  He really cares about his players,
    coaches, and fans.  At SU, he was the one that the players always went
    to if they had a problem.  He was always there for them.  He was also 
    very active in the community doing many charitable things, and he had
    his own call-in talk show where teens would call in with their
    problems, and he would talk with them and try to work them out.
    
    New England is going to love this guy's personality, he can talk to
    anybody and anybody can talk to him with ease.  I use to work security
    up at Manley Field House, where the S.U. athletic offices are, and I
    met MacPherson a few times, and it wasn't because I went up to him, but
    he just happened to be passing by, stopped, and started talking...
    
    He also has a great sense of humor!!!!  The best thing about the
    Syracuse football games was listening to what MacPherson had to say in
    the post game interviews.  You always knew it was going to be something
    good.  I remember there was one game at the Carrier Dome in which
    Syracuse was playing Army.  Army had the ball and where in field goal 
    range but for some reason something happened and time ran out.  Army
    insisted that the refs should put time back on the clock, and the refs
    were standing on the field contemplating this idea.  Meanwhile,
    MacPherson runs into the locker room with his team following him.  Army
    wasn't too happy with this and wanted Syracuse to come back out so they
    could have one more play in which they were going to go for the field
    goal.  Syracuse never came out, and the refs said there is no time on
    the clock, and it is half time.  After the game in all the interviews
    that were taking place, the media was asking MacPherson WHY he took his
    team off the field.  MacPherson's comment was, "I didn't take my men
    off of the field.  I just said to them, ' I have to go to the bathroom,
    anybody else have to go??' ", and they all followed!!!!!!
    
    
    DEFINITELY A TOP CLASS COACH FOR THE PATS!!!!
    
    - Ken -

    
    >    He also has a great sense of humor!!!!  The best thing about the
    
    I would think, as Patriots coach, this would be his top qualification;
    knowledge of the game of football, a distant second.
    
    Dickstah
    

    
    re.  .17
    
    The way things are now, you're probably right!!!
    
    - Ken -

Congrats John you deserve it for sticking it out...

mike

    On McPherson's age:  Isn't Rust 62?  Aren't there several other NFL
    coaches who are in their 60's?
    
    Will Jankovich bring the spirit of Miami football to the Patriots? 
    After watching the Cotton Bowl, do we want it?

    Mac won't let the spirit of Miami football anywhere on the field and
    came out and said being demonstrative has no place in the game.
    
    He's already been a breath of fresh air.  I got back from the press
    conference and he already has the press eating out of his hand.  Once
    the fans hear him and get to know him, it will be a turnaround there
    too.  He has his priorities straight - defense wins games (and that's
    where he's going to concentrate his hiring first), offense sells
    tickets and special teams wins the close ones.
    
    He was funny and open and handled the press very, very well.  He's only
    been there for less than a day and the front office people like him
    already.  He wasn't officially contacted until Friday, it happened
    quickly and he's on his way to New Orleans (NCAA coaches meetings) to
    talk to his staff (because this all happened while he was in Florida).
    Then, he's going up to Syracuse to talk to his players (who return to
    school today) and have a press conference.  He should be on the job
    full-time by Thursday.
    
    He's going to bring in a mixture of pro and college coaches and I think
    he has a pretty good idea of who he wants.
    
    I was standing next to his brother (the priest who inadvertently broke
    the news) and I was the second person he said hello to after he walked
    in.  I shook his hand, hugged him and said "Congratulations Mac, I'm
    glad you're here."  I stayed for his press conference, listened to him
    do his interviews, fetched him a cup of coffee when he asked for it
    (proving once a team manager, always a team manager) and was one of the
    last people to say good bye when he left.  I also gave him a note to
    read on the trip.  He thanked me for coming and I could tell he was
    happy and touched that I came.  I'm just glad I was able to be there.
    
    He is exactly what the team needs both on and off the field and if you
    don't think he's energetic and enthusiastic, watch and listen to him on
    the news tonight.
    
    I'm still so thrilled I can barely describe it and I can't wait for
    next season.  I'm thrilled for him, thrilled for the chance to work
    with him again and thrilled for what he's going to mean to the team.
    
    John

While I've never been a big Pats fan, I've always been a fan
of seeing a poor team turn around and rebuild.  

Watching the Cowboys this season was kind of fun, even though I'm a
die hard Giants fan.  And I have a feeling that watching next year's
Patriots might be the same kind of fun....

Good luck John...hope you guys have a season worth celebrating next
season.....

'Saw

    When I first heard that the Pats were going for a college coach,
    my immediate reaction was "oh no" visualizing a Jimmy Johnson clone.
    Then I thought a little bit and realized that with the rebuilding 
    this team is going to need, and the likely ages of the players we'd 
    be getting and realized that a coach who's used to younger players
    and the need to *teach* might not be a bad idea.
    
    Then I heard it was going to be Mac, and remembered some of what
    John had said about him in the past.  Gotta say that it's looking
    better with each piece of news coming out of Foxboro this past week.
    
    A&W

Now let's not all get caught up in this John Hendry hero-worship.  The truth is
that the coach has been given clearance to hire a new stat crew and John is
just sucking up to the guy who holds his future by the cashews.

Hope this helps.

    >When I first heard that the Pats were going for a college coach,
    >my immediate reaction was "oh no" visualizing a Jimmy Johnson clone.
    
     BTW, what is wrong with Jimmy Johnson, he seems to have done a
    respectable job with the team this year. 
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.

>>BTW, what is wrong with Jimmy Johnson, he seems to have done a
>>    respectable job with the team this year. 
  
    
    And he only had his hair cracked twice!!!
    
    JaKe
       

    
    We really can't trust John Hendry too much.  He was the one hyping
    Fritz Shermer (sp) the defensive coach of the Rams earlier this year. 
    Look what happened to the Rams defense.  8^)

Anyone who sees this before the 11:30 PM ESPN SportsCenter should tune in and
catch the MacPherson press conference prominently featuring none other than our
own John Hendry.  The first shot you see is John hugging Dick MacPherson.

Congrats on the national exposure, John!

j.

How's that song by Rush go?

	Living in the limelight, the universal dream?

Yeah, congrats, John!

    I don't want to be a celebrity, and nothing I did was calculated to
    make me one.  It was just a measure of the feeling that Mac and I have
    for each other that what happened occurred.  No preplanning, completely
    spontaneous.
    
    I didn't even see it because I went to Amherst for the UMass basketball
    game last night.
    
    John

    
    John, what's the inside scoop on Mac's coaching staff? Anyone?
    Bueller?
    
    
    
    Steve

    
    John, were you the guy in the maroon sweater next to Father Dickie?
    
    Coach Mac claims the keys to success are enthusiasm, innovation, and
    perseverence.  He then went on to explain, "When you get home to your
    wife at night, doesn't she like it when you're enthusiastic?  Doesn't
    she like you to be innovative?  And doesn't she really like it when you
    persevere?"
    
    Yup, I like this guy's style already.
    
    Dickstah
    

    
    SPORTS' first celebrity, whether he likes it or not!  All the local
    stations *and* coast-to-coast on ESPN.  Pretty impressive, John H...
    
    The naming of MacPherson as head coach brought back my first memories
    of him, also when he was coaching at UMass.  Back in 1976-77, I used to
    tag along with a family of blue-blood UNH fans and alums to all the
    games, and work as a ball boy with my friend at most of them.  Anyway, 
    before the big grudge match at Cowell Stadium in Durham (don't remember 
    which year), all the talk seemed to center around this maniac
    MacPherson, and of course considering the sources it wasn't positive.
    There was definitely one of those healthy hatreds going that die-hard 
    fans have with a rival, something I'd heard before from these guys and 
    didn't take too seriously.
    
    As usual, because I was more of the outsider, I was working the
    visitors' side.  MacPherson did not disappoint.  He was easily
    identifiable as the guy who was up and down the sideline, screaming and
    swearing a blue streak at players, coaches, officials, whomever.  He 
    may have even barked at me a couple of times for sleeping on a ball 
    switch or something; I don't remember (what can I say, those things 
    happen when you start concentrating on the game; I was only a kid).  
    But I'd have to say that I actually liked MacPherson, and I'd tease my 
    friend about it afterward.  In my limited experience, I thought he was 
    more of what a football coach was supposed to be, in direct contrast to
    the stone-cold stoicism that UNH's Bill Bowes always demonstrated.  And
    of course MacPherson rose to the big time shortly thereafter...  
    
    I also recall that that game meant a lot to UNH that year (potentially 
    playoffs were at stake), but I believe that UMass and MacPherson won.  
    You rememeber it, John?
    
    glenn
     

    It was me in the maroon sweater.  I was standing next to Father
    Normand.  He was there and didn't really know anyone except me, so I
    wanted to be sure he had a good place to see everything and got to meet
    everyone.
    
    I would have been on the sidelines for those games.  In 1975, we'd won
    our first 8 in a row and went to Durham and lost 14-11.  UNH won the
    Yankee Conference Title and went to the playoffs, we went home.  1977,
    we'd lost to Army, won 7 in a row, went into Durham and won 19-6.  We
    win the title and go to the playoffs, UNH goes home.
    
    If previous Patriots coaches have been ice, Mac is definitely fire.
    
    John

    
    >    It was me in the maroon sweater.
    
    It was too crowded to tell on the TV, but wasn't it actually the maroon
    and gold sweater with the little "BC" embroidered on the front?
    
    Dickstah
    

John, 

I think I've gotten to know you somewhat from the Notesfile here,
and having met you.  I didn't want to imply that you were consciously
seeking the limelight, because I know you wouldn't do that.

Hope I didn't imply that.  I was just joshin' ya for being (at least)
SPORTS_91's first Superstar 8^)

Enjoy what's gonna be happening with the Patriots...it's gonna be interesting
to see all the hardwork take place...

'Saw

    
       I saw the highlights and out this way (Western Mass) and during
    that shot, at the bottom of the screen, it had...
    
    Father Normand (brother) & John Hendry (Patriot statistician and UMass
                                           alumni) :^>
    
     
     On a non-joking note, the local rag is pushing a Jim Reid-as-assistant
    rumor. Anyone else hear anything like that?
    
    Bull~
    

    Maroon is just as much a UMass color as it is a BC color.  The only
    difference is that we don't have any gold mixed in - we're strictly
    maroon and white.
    
    There was lots of speculation yesterday about Jim Reid, head football
    coach at UMass.  Jim came to us as a Graduate Assistant out of Maine
    in 1973 and was a Grad Asst for 2 years.  He was an unpaid, volunteer
    assistant in 1975 and was hired full time in 1976.  Mac was going to
    hire him anyway, but the thing that impressed Mac was that the players
    on the team, to a man, wrote Mac and asked him to hire Jimmy when the
    opening occurred over the summer.  Jimmy coached defensive backs under
    Mac.  When Mac left for Cleveland, Jimmy was defensive coordinator
    under Bob Pickett and did so during Bob's 6 years as head coach.  Mac
    wanted Jimmy to join him at Syracuse but Jimmy didn't go, figuring he'd
    get a chance to be UMass' head coach one day.  It paid off for him.
    
    While it would be bad for the university, I think it would be good for
    him, for 3 reasons.  He's never worked anywhere else and if he doesn't
    make a move soon, he may never get the chance.  He's taken UMass about
    as far as it can go.  As much as I love the football program there, we
    realistically will never get beyond the second round of the playoffs
    since we can't get the kind of players that will allow us to compete on
    that level.  The 3rd reason is the uncertainty in state government and
    with the University.
    
    Working against it is his family.  They really have a home in Amherst,
    his daughter is in high school and is an athlete at Amherst HS and she
    holds Jim's phone cable on the sidelines.  His son works with the team
    as a water boy.  Jim would really lose that family connection if he
    left.
    
    I have mixed emotions about it and it could go either way, so I
    wouldn't be surprised at either scenario.  Speculation up at the
    University last night was that he would be offered a job and he would
    take it if offered.  Mac did a great job deflecting all the speculation
    yesterday, so I don't know what's going to happen.
    
    John

Dick Macpherson was a Bronco assistant coach under "sweet" Lou Saben 1969-1971

    I have grown weary of the stoic head coaches of the Patriots in the
    past. Rod Rust had the enthusiasm on the sidelines of a snail. Elmer
    Berry looked like he fell out of the stands and didn't know where he
    was. Ron Earhart almost looked like John Madden and paced like him but
    showed no emothion. On and on. John Mazur, Phil Bengsten, Ron Meyer...
    
    I don't know about anyone else but when a call goes against tTHE
    Patriots or a Patriot makes a boneheaded play, I get angry and I like
    to kick something. I yell things. It is almost as annoying to watch the
    Patriot head coach see something bad happen and appear like he is
    watching "I Love Lucy" reruns. I like it when Shula or Ditka or Ryan or
    even - "shudder" - Reeves stomp around on the sidelines yelling and
    ranting. They are reflecting their fans', as well as their players',
    frustrations. 
    
    MacPhearson has always been an emotional guy and, although I may not
    have been a Syracuse fan, he was far more palatable than Jack Bicknell
    haplessly going through hand signal routines.
    
    The Patriots NEED fire. The Patriots' fans NEED fire. If MacPhearson
    only coaches 5 years and gets the team to a 8-7 record, he may very
    well restore a sense of pride in the team and make people want to come
    back to see them.
    
    John, my heart felt congratulations to you since, through this file I
    have seen your deep affection for Mac and his program and I know you
    are one of the few who truly bleed for the Patriots. Good luck, my
    friend. 
    
    Rich
    

.40� The Patriots NEED fire. The Patriots' fans NEED fire. If MacPhearson
                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    	I'll tell ya Rich the last time the fans tried lighting a fire
those Foxboro fireman came in and doused it.  Remember Denny?  So we
going to get the cheerleaders back?
    
				/Don    

    I didn't recognize John at first because he didn't have a beach ball.
    But then I realized it was him.  Nice going...

While the Patriots fans may need fire, I must caution against the 
need for Loinal Fire(tm).

Especially now where the new coaches brother is a Father, you'd better
be pretty careful what kinds of fire your basic Patriots fan is
needing.

hth,
'Saw

    Two of Mac's brothers are priests, and two of his sisters are nuns.
    
    One of Mac's comments yesterday was "My father believed in the rhythm
    method.  It only failed 12 times."
    
    John

Out here in Colorado, when the ESPN bit was on, they ran a ribbon of
type under the shot of John and the Padre identifying them as:

Shady Character `Pops' Normand and suspected Crime Figure Johnnie `The
Ninja' Hendry. The thrust of it all seemed to be that Macpherson had
just arrived, and was already in deep caca with the Underworld.

Serious Question: Everyone refers to the Pats as a poor team. What the
hell happened? They were in the Superbowl in 85. They got blown out,
sure... but that's practically a tradition for the AFC lately. They were
still a pretty good club. Were there specific changes or losses which
precipitated the demise, or was 85 a fluke year, or what?

Mike JN

    
    1985 was no fluke.  After 1985, the inspirational heart and soul of the
    team, John Hannah, retired.  The running game disappeared.  Also, Tony
    Eason was still sort of shell-shocked from the Super Bowl.  He had a
    great 1986 statistically, we won the division and gave Denver a great
    game.  Then, I think Raymond let the team get old and I also think the
    team sort of tuned him out.  We were still in contention in 1987 and
    1988, and then really hit the skids in 1989 and 1990.
    
    John

Five years is a long time in football.

In five years you can have taken a team from 3-12-1 (Giants 1983) to
Super Bowl Champs (Giants 1986)... Or the opposite can happen.

Dynasties are hard to come by.  After the last 60s the Packers hit
the skids fast and stayed down for a long time.  They still aren't
back.  Other teams have had that happen too...

Should be interesting to see how long it takes the Pats to regain top form...

'Saw

    A succession of TERRIBLE drafts in the mid-80's left the Pats
    without a nucleus of good young talent that every team needs
    to continue to play at a high level.  When Hannah, and then Wooten
    left, for example, there simply was no one even close to their
    ability level to replace them.  Fortunatley, Dick Steinberg is now
    in New York to work his "magic" with the Jests.  They deserve
    each other.
    
    NAZZ

    I just heard an interesting rumor about the Pats draft activity. What
    do you think the likelihood of this willbe? Do you think it's a good
    idea?
    
    With the #1 pick, select Rocket Ishmeal (assuming he comes out). trade
    him and Irving Fryar to Dallas for "a ton" of picks. Of course, it
    would depend on how many and which rounds. Dallas has a lot
    of picke from the Hershel Walker anf Steve Walsh trades. I don't know if
    the Cowboys need a couple of goreceivers, but maybe the change of
    scenery would od Fryar some good. He's certainly talented, but he
    reminds me a little of Oil Can Boyd with shoulder pads. Who knows,
    maybe they can bick up a slew of good young guys (offensive linemen?)
    that will be the foundatin of the club for many years.
    
    Whaddaya think?
    
    Tom

    I don't think it will happen, Dallas learned a lesson from their
    dealings with Minnisota;
    
    Don't give up the farm for a little flash!
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

    I get a kick out of rumors. The biggest one going around for about
    2 years has been Fryar to Dallas. How in the world would Dallas benefit
    by trading for Fryar. Correct me if I'm wrong but I haven't read or
    heard any reference of Fryar to Dallas other than Pats fan in this
    notes file. Is it because Fryar now lives in the Dallas area?

    First it was Irvin for Steve Walsh and a #1. Good luck unloading
    Fryar.

    I'll start a rumor, how about trading Fryar to the Raiders. The Raiders
    have a history of wanting players nobody wants to take a chance on :-)

Chuck

    	Yeah but Chuck those Texas roads are all pretty straight so
    old Irving don't have to worry about those dreaded forks in the
    road.
    
    				/Don

    Plus EVERYONE has their own guns...
    
    ;-)
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

    /Don,

          You may have point there. I hear the gun laws are more relaxed
    in Texas than all of the northeast. He might be a good fit after all
    send him to JJ's office for an interview and then to a surgeon for a
    brain transplant.

    Chuck

Texas used to have a law allowing you to drink while driving.

The penalties were DUI were a lot stiffer if you *were* DUI and the
cop observed you drinking while driving, but hey, nothing like one
for the road....

Yeeehaaa!
'Saw

    If MacPhearson truly believes in Defense as the basis for a contending
    football team, I believe the Pats will keep their pick and take
    Maryland from Miami. Don't forget where Jankovich (Weird Al?) came
    from.
    
    The other option would be to see if someone like Cleveland or the Jets
    or the Cardinals were really hot over getting the 1st pick and trade
    for multiple top round picks.
    
    The Pats haven't had had a pass rushing defensive lineman since Tony ?
    a few years ago. And he wasn't all that great. I think the Pats have a
    decent linebacking corps that can stop the run if the guys up front do
    their jobs. But they allow opposing QBs too much time to make up their
    minds.
    
    Also, the Pats DB's are either aging or are not that good. James is how
    old? and Lippett isn't as good as he used to be. 
    
    This is an ideal time to start building a contender on the defensive
    side, telling the fans they are rebuilding and allowing 2-4 years for
    things to come together.
    
    Rich
    

    Rich,
    
    I don't know who the top offensive linemen are coming out in this
    year's draft, but I think the Pats need help there first.  They seem to
    already have a couple of good defensive linemen with potential (Goad,
    Agnew, Brett Williams and if Veris comes back, there's another one).
    Maybe I'm just leary after they got semi-burnt by picking Ken Sims with
    the first pick years ago.  If they bring Collier on board, he prefers
    the 3-4 defense.
    
    I hate to say it but I think Fred Marion may have served his
    usefulness.  He surely still has a place on the team, but maybe they
    could move Lippett to the safety postion.  He's a heavy hitter, we know
    that, but he may have lost a step after the Achilles tendon surgery a
    year ago.  Just how good is Todd Light (sp?) from Notre Dame anyway?  It
    seemed pretty obvious from the games I saw that most teams threw away
    from him.  Mike Haynes showed just how much difference a top flight
    cornerback can make on a team.
    
    					Steve
                                             

    Good points, Steve and you just may be on to something. But, seriously,
    Are Goad, Williams and Veris thought highly of anywhere BUT New
    England? My point is that the Pats can become VERY competitive in the
    weak AFC East if they put together a top flight defense. Teams of the
    past like the Steelers and Vikings got a long way with great defenses
    and mediocre offenses (although the Steelers developed an excellent
    offense. 
    
    The point is, you establish a devastating defense first and build from
    there. Parcells did it in NYC. Noll did it in Pittsburgh. The Patriots
    are just so bad now that they can't effectively try to perform a
    miracle on both the offense and defense.
    
    The offensive line they have now is young. I suggest they work with
    them and allow them to develop. Work with Hodson. Stephens is still a
    decent back although I never can figure out when the REAL John Stephens
    will emerge. You have to admit that his yard total of over 800 yards
    this year was incredible given the poor offensive scheme and
    merry-go-round at QB. 
    
    They started last year with Agnew and Singleton. Agnew seems to be
    legit but the jury is still out on Singleton. But don't forget, the kid
    missed training camp. 1-2 more years of defensive drafting (going after
    top-flight defensive college players) and the Pats would then be able
    to work on improving the offense. In a year, we should know whether
    Hodson is worth waiting on. I'm not expecting him to have a Roger
    Staubach year but at least to show signs of improvement.
    
    I still feel they have a golden opportunity to build a truly great
    defensive unit and believe that is the key to the successful rebuilding
    effort of the team.
    
    Rich
    

    
    Don't forget about Sean Smith and Chris Gannon on the defensive
    line, Smith had a whale of game against the Jints.
    
    I agree, they need help in a big way on the offensive line.
    It was pretty offensive. 
    
    
    Steve

 According to the USA today, David Klinger will return to play for 
Houston despite reports that he will forgo his senior season to enter
the NFL draft and be the #1 pick of the New England Patriots.
 
        What a scary thought it must have been! :*)

If the Pat's were so interested in Klinger, do you suppose they
may have wanted to dabble in the run and shoot?

           Robbie

    re .60:  There were alot of reports that Ware would return to Houston
    as well.  He is now in Detroit.
    
    Since when were the Pats interested in Klingler?

re 61:  I would guess that alot of people felt that the Pat's QB situation
is not settled and that they would make it a priority to get a 1st round
caliber player as a QB via the draft.  I've heard the names Mcguire and
Klinger mentioned as the top prospects at that position.  
 
  Obviously if Hodson can do the job,  they do not need to draft a QB.
I would venture to guess that they need a "Jeff George" franchise kind
of a player in order to get the most out of trading down for more
draft choices (bait).
  Mcguire isn't thought of as a franchise, but could develop quite
well.  He's already hired Steinberg so you can count on the price
of his contract being extremely over priced.  

  Dick Coury as offensive coordinator: I love it, and I believe the
fans will be flocking back to Foxboro with this coaching staff.
Hopefully the defense will be read/attack, versus read/react.

              Robbie 
 

    re .62:
    
    >	Dick Coury as offensive coordinator: I love it
    
    Is this official?
    
    
    py

    Wasn't Coury the coach of the late (not so) great Boston Breakers? They
    pulled out a few games in th elast minute, and generally played pretty
    open-exciting offensivley.
    
    Tom

    Dick Coury was the coach of the Breakers and no, his appointment is not
    yet official.
    
    John

  CBS stated yesterday that Coury may be inked today.  Has this
happened?

               Thanks, Robbie 

    GM of the Patriots, Pat Sullivan, has resigned.  I believe I heard he
    was the last remaining Sullivan employed by the team.
    
    					Steve

    
    I assume Pat's "buyout package" was pretty hefty, since he had some
    guaranty left on his guaranteed contract.  He probably had the option
    of leaving with reduced pay, or staying on with full pay, and fill his
    time by scrubbing the rest rooms at Sullivan/Shaeffer/Foxboro stadium.
    
    
    Dickstah
    

2 million dollar buyout for Patty. 

 mike

    Lost Wages(tm) has declared the Patriots at 1,000,000:1 odds to win the
    Super Bowl next year.  The Giants, Bills, and 49ers topped the list at
    5:1.
    
    Mike

    The Herald has Pat getting 2.8 Million, and although hes the last 
    sullivan they still bill listed as the president of the team.  They
    have a great article in the herald, pat said he realized although he
    had a job and a title he had no say in notin...and didnt want to be
    a paper shuffler.......Ho Well....

    Since the buyout, Billy Sullivan has had the title of President
    although that's more ceremonial than anything else.  He'll probably
    hold that post until he dies.  Losing his association with the team
    would probably quite literally kill him.
    
    Regardless of your feelings about the Sullivan family, remember, there
    wouldn't be a football team here if it hadn't been for them.
    
    Regardless of your feelings about Patrick, remember that a public
    humiliation is never pretty and that's what he ended up going through. 
    A certain proportion of it was, I'll admit, self-inflicted but it still
    doesn't make it any prettier.
    
    My personal feelings are that I'm sorry to see him go.  Pat has been a
    colleague and friend for the last 13 years and I'm going to miss him. 
    I predict he'll come out of it OK.
    
    I'll reserve judgment on what it means to the future of the team.
    
    John
                                      

 I also hope that Pat makes it out there in the cold cruel world.
2.8 million isn't what it used to be!  Good thing he was making
such a good salary before this came along...Must be a similar
feeling to taking the DEC package. :*) 

              Oh to be the son of a franchise owner,

                   Robbie
                                      

    It is being reported in the Globe today that the Patriots are
    considering shifting their training camp from Bryant College to the
    University of Massachusetts, due to rising costs at Bryant.
    
    Bryant has been a good camp for the Patriots.  The buildings all have
    central air, everything is close together and the college is close to
    Foxboro.  UMass has better locker facilities and more and better
    fields.
    
    John

    
    I read about that too, but I thought a bigwig at Bryant went up
    and straightened everything out (i.e. came to terms in principal 
    although not on paper).  I heard Mac brought the whole thing up -
    personally I think the Pats will be blowing a good deal by going
    to UMass instead of Bryant (and I get to see 'em more at Bryant).
    
    SEAN/BEER=LABATTS

    could this have anything to do with Mac's prior affiliation with UMass?
    

    I wouldn't be surprised.  While relations between him and the athletic
    director were somewhat strained when he left (largely over the budget,
    and he did interview for the Dartmouth job that was open when he went
    to Cleveland) he has a lot of friends out there, is remembered very
    warmly in the town and by the University in general and it is the place
    where he and his family lived second longest in his coaching career. 
    The family spent 10 years in Syracuse and that's really home now (Mac
    is keeping the house in Syracuse, one of his daughters will live there
    and he plans to retire up there) but they spent 7 years living in
    Amherst.  His daughters were 11 and 9 when he first arrived in Amherst
    and the older daughter graduated from Amherst HS before entering UMass
    (where she spent 3 years before transferring to and graduating from
    Syracuse, and then going to SU Law School) so they really grew up out
    there.
    
    I think the move is largely due to the alleged rise in prices by
    Bryant.  Moving from Bryant to UMass just for the sake of moving really
    doesn't make sense because of the distance and because the dorms aren't
    as nice.  Summer in Amherst is brutal, at least by New England
    standards, because the campus is in a valley and the dorms aren't air
    conditioned (as one who spent 4 college and 1 pro training camp in
    Amherst, that's no small consideration).
    
    I think if money was no object, Bryant would be the superior choice.
    
    John

    John Hendry,
    	Can you enlighten me on a supposed rift between Mac and Jack
    Bicknell  that developed when Mac was at UMass and Bicknell at
    Maine? Or had bicknell already gone to BC?
    
    Thanks,
    MikeL
    

    The careers paralleled like this:
    
    Mac took over at UMass for the 1971 season.  At that time, Bicknell was
    still an assistant at BC and Walter Abbott was the head coach at Maine. 
    Jim Reid, current UMass coach, was a junior DB at Maine.
    
    At that time, Maine was in the middle of a streak where they hadn't
    beaten us in football since 1965 (and wouldn't, until 1982) and in the
    middle of a streak where they were shut out against us from 1969-75. 
    Mac's record against Maine was a perfect 7-0:  1971 it was 13-0, 1972
    was 37-0, 1973 was 20-0, 1974 was 42-0, 1975 was 10-0, 1976 was 24-3
    and 1977 was 28-0.  In other words, the point difference was 174-3 
    over 7 years.  Jim Reid was captain of the 1972 Maine team and would
    join us as a graduate assistant the next year, coaching the freshman
    Defensive Backs when I was freshman team manager.  The Maine game
    always had special meaning for Mac because Old Town is right next to
    Orono and a lot of his home town pals used to come to the game.  There
    was a lot of extra pressure because it was always a game we were
    expected to win.
    
    Bicknell took over in 1976 and at the time, Maine was still pretty bad. 
    I never saw any evidence of bad blood between Mac and Jack, other than
    Mac speaking out against Bicknell for using a trick play against UNH. 
    This was a play where Maine lined up to try a field goal, the holder
    tossed it into the air, the kicker punched it forward into the end zone
    and a Maine player fell on it for a touchdown.  The play was legal at
    the time and Mac was furious to hear that someone would have pulled
    something like that.  Of course, Bob Griffin down at URI used to do a
    lot worse.  His favorite play was to fake a punt, throw a pass and have
    the punt coverage people draw interference from the person back to
    receive the kick.  That I think is the root of it but I'm not sure. 
    Nothing that happened on the field during that two year period would
    have caused any trouble, at least not that I know of.
    
    Our record against BC while Mac was there was about as dismal the other
    way:  1971 lost 35-0, 1972 won 28-7, 1973 lost 59-14, 1974 lost 70-8,
    1975 lost 24-14, 1976 lost 35-0 and 1977 lost 34-7.  This was a point
    differential of 264-71.  Mac always wanted to beat BC more than any
    other team on our schedule because of this.  As I've said many times,
    this is where my strong hatred of BC comes from.
    
    Mac went to Cleveland in 1978 and Jack was still at Maine.  They both
    arrived at their new schools, Syracuse and BC, in 1981.  Going into the
    BC game that first year, SU was 2-6-1 and BC wasn't much better, but BC
    had this remarkable freshman QB who'd come out of nowhere.  Anyway, SU
    beat BC pretty badly.  I've been told that despite all the big games SU
    played regularly over Mac's 10 years at SU, the game he got most
    nervous about and meant more to him was the BC game.  That's more
    likely where it started from.  There was a lot of cross-pollination
    between the two coaching staffs, too.  4 of SU's coaches had coached at
    UMass, 1 of those and a grad assistant had played at UMass, so they'd
    all felt the humiliation of those big defeats.  Tom Coughlin, who's now
    the BC head coach, is a Syracuse grad, was not kept by Mac when he took
    over up there and ended up as an assistant at BC from 1981-83.
    
    The next year, SU was 2-7 going into the BC game and playing worse than
    they had the year before.  The 1981 team at least had Joe Morris, the
    1982 team had nothing.  BC was flying along going into that game.  Mac
    came up with a quote that said something like "I see the light at the
    end of the tunnel, but I hope it's not a train."  Someone from BC,
    alleged to be Bicknell but I'm not sure who it was, took that quote and
    had T-shirts printed up for the BC players to wear under their uniforms
    in that game.  They had a picture of a train on it and the T-shirt said
    "The Train", implying that BC was the train at the end of the tunnel. 
    BC won a thriller that year.  Tied 13-13 late in the game, SU running
    back Jaime Covington "fumbled" close to the goal line.  Instant replay
    probably would have reversed it, because as we all know, "the ground
    cannot cause a fumble."  BC drove down the field and Flutie hit Gerard
    Phelan with a late TD pass to win the game.
    
    Each team then won on its home turf through 1988, when SU won at BC, as
    they did again in 1990.  Mac's record at SU against BC ended up being
    7-3 and his career record ended up being 8-9.
    
    I think the talk of the rift was overblown.  What you had was an
    intense rivalry to begin with, fueled by a coach for whom the game had
    a lot of personal meaning and fueled by two coaches who are both good
    with the press and like to talk.  Then there was the shirt incident
    which I thought was overblown.  I actually thought it was clever and
    funny, and I think the coach who thought it up should have been
    commended.  It was a great idea and a good motivational tool.
    
    John 
                    

  Pat's announced yesterday that they will be installing grass
for next season.  I like this guy Jankovich (sp?)  The managment
seems to be setting a tone of "take action now" which is a pleasant
change.  This attitude should filter down through the ranks and create
an exciting football team for years to come.  I hope they trade
down and grab Maryland.

            Robbie

    Plans were in place to install grass in Foxborough before Jankovich
    arrived.

>>    <<< Note 34.81 by ORCAS::LEAVITT_RO "Don't miss the humidity at all!" >>>
>>                                 -< Go PAT'S >-


>>  Pat's announced yesterday that they will be installing grass
>>for next season.
    
    Sheez, the season is 6months+ away and already they're planning for
    drug problems.  Has Kevin Mack asked for a trade to the Pats in light
    of this info????
    
    JaKe
    

    I heard they were planning on putting in grass and then changed there
    mind and then recently decided to go with grass again....If this is
    true Im sure Jank and Mac had something to do with it seeing that there 
    running the show now.......How about that Kiam...Intelligence at its
    best.  He should have told the Patroit Missle joke and left out Olsen's
    name, Im sure he could have said something like what do Iraqians and
    you know which reporter have in common.......still may have taken some
    heat over it but hes begging for trouble..I laughed...
    								MaB

�    I heard they were planning on putting in grass and then changed there
�    mind 
    
    I don't think they changed their minds exactly.  It was reported that
    the grass might not be put in because of an event scheduled for the
    stadium.  The event would have taken place before the grass had a
    chance to take.  Planting after the event would have been too late for
    it to be ready for the season.

    Yeah, I was going to ask about the grass switch. I had heard they were
    going to do it, but at the end of the season, Kiam said it was "on
    hold" and they were going to "reevaluate" the situation. So have they
    decided to go ahead with the grass after all? Am I right in thinking
    the stadium and the team are owned by different people, so the stadium
    people could (theorhetically) do whatever they want, regardless of what
    Kiam says?  Supposedly they want to stage soccer games involving the
    USA team at Foxboro, and they would like to have Foxboro to be
    considered as a site for the 1994 World Cup. To do this, it has to be a
    grass field.  
    
    I herd that Lisa Olson/Patriot missle joke, but did Kiam *REALLY* say
    that publicly, or are you winding us up? If he did, he's a LOT more
    stupid than I ever thought, which is saying quite a bit...
    
    Tom   

    �So have they decided to go ahead with the grass after all? 
    
    Yes
    
    �Am I right in thinking the stadium and the team are owned by different
    �people, so the stadium people could (theorhetically) do whatever they
    �want, regardless of what Kiam says?  
    
    Yes
    
�    I herd that Lisa Olson/Patriot missle joke, but did Kiam *REALLY* say
�    that publicly, or are you winding us up? If he did, he's a LOT more
�    stupid than I ever thought, which is saying quite a bit...
    
    Yes, he did repeat the joke, in public, and has since issued an
    apology.  The guy is not neccessarily stupid, he seems to have very bad
    timing.  Apparently the time isn't ripe for everyone to look back at
    the incident and laugh.

    Ha,
    	Billy,Chuck,and Patrick Sullivan must be chuckling over their
    promissory notes. Kiam just doesn't have a clue.
    

    After a meeting with the new PR Director on Thursday, March 21, I am
    pleased to announce I have retained my job and will be there for at
    least another season.
    
    John

Congrat John Hendry!

    Speech ! Speech !

    
    >    After a meeting with the new PR Director on Thursday, March 21, I am
    >pleased to announce I have retained my job and will be there for at
    >least another season.
    
    Dontcha wish you could meet with KO and hear the same thing?
    
    Dickstah
    

       Good news John. I renewed lasted week so I'll be suffering along
    with you!
                                     Denny

    	Same here.  Try to convince Victor we need cheerleaders!  8^o

       IF they come back /Don I'm moving down to the front row with youse
    guys!!
                                              Denny 8^P

SorrY to hear that, John.  Another year of being forced to watch Patriots'
games.  Did you ask the PR director what you ever did to him?

;-).
j.

    I do it because I like it.
    
    Actually, I've met him before.  Pat Hanlon, who is our new PR Director,
    was the Assistant PR Director for the Steelers last year.  I met him
    when I made the trip to Montreal last August to work at our game
    against the Steelers.  He's a good guy, I think he'll be good to work
    with and we're on the same wavelength about what needs to be done and
    how we're going to do it.  We can't control what happens on the field
    but Pat wants us to have the best press box operation in the league. 
    Since one of my goals is for us to be recognized as the best crew in
    the league every year (ie, to win the award if the NFL was to give an
    award for the best crew if they did what the NBA does) our goals are
    the same too.
    
    It's a busy off-season for me because the league-standard computer
    stat system is really and truly going to happen this year so I have to
    get involved in learning the system, going to training for it and
    implementing it.
    
    John
    
    PS - Jimmy Oldham, former PR Director, has moved to Memphis and is
    happily employed as the PR Director for the World Basketball League.

    It was reported in the Globe today that the Patriots are bringing back
    the cheerleaders next year, under the direction of Lisa Coles, Hugh
    Millen's fiancee and former director of the cheerleaders for the
    Atlanta Falcons.
    
    John

    Yes, the cheerleaders are cuming back to Foxboro. Kiam figures that if
    the fans don't want to see te football team then maybe they will cum
    and see the cheerleaders...
    
    HTH
    
    REK

    Anything new to report on the #1 draft pick front?
    
    
    py

    Nope.  The rumors about Woodson haven't been reported here that I know
    of.  Rocket is still talking to the Argos.  The Argos are giving him
    more money than we'd offer and guaranteeing the contract, which we
    won't do.  On the other hand, Rocket probably wouldn't make as much
    money up there in endorsements.
    
    No trade action either.  The only possibility is a trade with Atlanta
    but it certainly wouldn't be as lucrative for us as we'd originally
    hoped.
    
    I hope Rocket signs with the Argos because then we can take someone who
    plays a position that we really need - like offensive line.  I
    personally feel we'd be strongest if we took someone like Antone Davis
    as the first pick and John Flannery with the second round pick.  
    
    John
    

    > I personally feel we'd be strongest if we took someone like Antone Davis
    > as the first pick and John Flannery with the second round pick.  
      
    My sentiments exactly John.  Forget Ismail, forget McGwire.  You build
    a team starting with the line.  It's no coincidence that this team's
    fall from contender to pretender started around the time #73 hung them
    up.  The early-80s Houston Oilers had a sound plan for making the jump
    from also-ran to contender; for 3-4 years straight, they drafted the
    best offensive lineman available.  Only after that was in place did
    they add Warren Moon and a host of WRs.  I certainly feel a similar
    plan is in order with this team.
                                
    
    py

       Forget it /Donald, after a coupla games they'll do to you guys what
    they used to do when I sat in the endzone. They'll just run right by
    and NEVER stop!
                                Denny

    I'm personally against it for two reasons.
    
    1.  Cheerleaders really have no place in professional sports.  Even the
    term cheerleaders is a misnomer, even to a certain extent in college,
    because they don't lead cheers, they dance.
    
    2.  A couple of our stat crew members get (ahem!) distracted by the
    antics of the cheerleaders on the field and their job performance
    suffers accordingly.
    
    Of course, if they distract the crowd from a dreadful performance on
    the field then that's OK with me.  On the other hand, why these women
    would put up with the abuse they get from the stands is beyond my
    comprehension.
    
    John

    And the answer for why these women are willing to put up with the ****
    from the fans....
    
    It looks good on the resume when trying out for parts as members of the
    chorus line.  (I'm not kidding.  Consider Paula Abdul.)
    
    A&W

    Good job John, making an impact on the new crew already...

    Actually, it's the same crew we've had from last year.  No one has ever
    asked me to hire cheerleaders though I'll be glad to take credit for
    it.
    
    John

    John, either we get the cheerleaders, or a 40% raise.
    
    Take it or leave it ....
    
    Signed,
    
    The Union Of Harrassed, Underpaid, and Unappreicated Statmen.
    
    Motto : Treat us like dishes, and swim with the Fishes !

    ><<< Note 34.95 by AXIS::ROBICHAUD "UNC - AnotherExcellentLossPending" >>>

    >	Same here.  Try to convince Victor we need cheerleaders!  8^o

    

   Teams should not be able to compete unless they have cheerleaders. AND
   the cheerleaders must be able to do proper cartwheels (I love
   cartwheels).

   RE: the NFL draft

   I hear a lot of disparagement of this year's draft. But looking at it
   top to bottom, I think it's a pretty solid draft. There are some good
   players there, but not necessarily that many you  could call
   superstars. AND.... I think what is finally beginning to happen is...
   teams are looking at first rounders and saying: `This clown is going to
   want a million to show up, and about two million a year to play, and
   he's not worth it. He's a college punk, and I've got players on the
   team NOW that are better than him, and they're not making anything
   CLOSE to what this Bozo's gonna want.

   Maybe
   Mike JN

Paula Abdul....what a waste....


What's her ratio of albums to commercials now 1:30 ?



metz

    
    >Paula Abdul....what a waste....
    
    Got any other waste ya wanna dispose of?
    
    Dickstah Inc.
    Waste Removal and Sanitory Service
    
    "If you need our services, it's truly a waste"
    

    You can throw some of that TRASH my way as well.... And the only
    commercials I ever see her in is COKE ?  Gotto love her...

    Did anybody else hear Mel Kiper on ESPN lasted night say that
    Antoine Davis has looked less than stellar in workouts this spring,
    and that he has ballooned to 330+ pounds?  He sounds like a major
    bust waiting to happen.  Pats should take Ismail unless they get
    overwhelmed by a deal.
    
    NAZZ

>    Antoine Davis has looked less than stellar in workouts this spring,


Is he the guy that hangs around Blaine in that skit Men on ________  ??????

    Men on Films (with a long 's').
    
    Mark.

    Close, that is Antione Merriweather .....

    preseason
    
    Sat	Aug 3	at Green Bay	7PM
    Sat Aug 10	Washington	7PM
    Sat Aug 17	at Phoenix	1030PM
    Sat Aug 24	New York Giants	4PM
    
    regular season
    
    Sun Sep 1	at Indianapolis	4PM
    Sun Sep 8	Cleveland	1PM
    Sun Sep 15	at Pittsburgh	1PM
    Sun Sep 22	Houston		1PM
    Sun Sep 29	at Phoenix	4PM
    Sun Oct 6	Miami		4PM
    Sun Oct 13	OPEN DATE
    Sun Oct 20	Minnesota	1PM
    Sun Oct 27	Denver		1PM
    Sun Nov 3	at Buffalo	1PM
    Sun Nov 10	at Miami	8PM (ESPN)
    Sun Nov 17	NY Jets		1PM
    Sun Nov 24	Buffalo		1PM
    Sun Dec 1	at Denver	4PM
    Sun Dec 8	Indianapolis	1PM
    Sun Dec 15	at NY Jets	1PM
    Sun Dec 22	at Cincinnati	1PM

    Nazz has started an anti-Dick Steinberg crusade over in the Jets note
    and it looks like it's going to end up being more relevant to the
    Patriots than to the Jets.
    
    As you know, I can't be completely objective about anyone involved with
    the Patriots because I know them all too well.  I also have to be
    careful about what I say and how I say it.  With that being the case -
    
    I don't think Dick Steinberg can be blamed for drafting Ken Sims
    because anyone who had the first choice in the NFL in 1982 would have
    drafted him and he would have been just as much of a bust playing for
    any other team in the league.  Also, while Irving Fryar may not have
    been a number 1 pick, he certainly would have been in the top 5 - by
    anyone.  It's not sufficient to evaluate a draft or a trade years after
    the fact, you must remember the context in which the choice or trade
    was made at the time and as Keith MacNeal says, compare the results to
    everyone's results.
    
    In comparing Dick Steinberg to Joe Mendes, the impression I get is that
    Dick is more of a gambler.  He will draft "riskier" players than Joe
    will.
    
    Dick is also not totally to blame for the downfall of the Patriots.  A
    lot of it is coaching.  Both Raymond Berry (and before him, Ron
    Erhardt) let the team get old and didn't replace key personnel.  One of
    the reasons for the success of the Forty Niners has been that they've
    turned the team over and gradually rebuilt year-to-year.  They've
    admitted that they kept some of their aging veterans (ie, Lott and
    Craig) a year longer than they should have because they felt they had a
    legitimate chance to win last year's Super Bowl, and they came close.
    
    Dick cannot be completely absolved of fault in our downfall but he's
    certainly not the only reason.
    
    If I look back on the most successful teams in the Patriots history
    (the 1976-1978 years and not 1985-86, despite going to the Super Bowl)
    I see it as being the stamp of one man - Chuck Fairbanks.  Say what you
    will about his performance at Colorado or with the Generals, or his
    lack of charisma or whatever, not only could the man coach but he was
    in complete control of everything.  He was the General Manager with
    full responsibility over the personnel function (he worked very, very
    well with Bucko Kilroy as well) and he was the head coach.  During the
    first part of his tenure, the Sullivan family wasn't around because
    they'd lost the proxy fight and they were scrambling to buy the shares
    of stock enabling them to get complete ownership of the team.  The Marr
    family, which had majority control at that time, gave Fairbanks the
    full authority to run the show.  That's what built the groundwork for
    the success of the team.  When the Sullivans came back, I believe they
    were threatened by Fairbanks' control, chipped away at it and drove him
    to take the job at Colorado.
    
    The team had some great people at that time.  In the scouting
    department we had 3 guys who are now in prominent positions in the NFL
    - Tony Razzano is Personnel Director of the Niners, Tom Boisture has
    the same position with the Giants and Mike Holovak is GM of the Oilers. 
    On the coaching staff, we had Sam Rutigliano at the beginning of
    Chuck's tenure.  We had Ray Perkins for the first half of it and then
    Raymond Berry, coaching the receivers.  Offensive line was first Red
    Miller and then Jim Ringo.  Running backs were Ron Erhardt all the way
    through.  On defense, the line was coached first by Hank Bullough and
    then Fritz Shurmur.  Linebackers were coached by Charlie Sumner and
    Rollie Dotsch.  All of these guys, except Fritz, have been head coaches
    later in their career.  While they may not have all been successful
    head coaches, at least they had the opportunity.  It was a damn good
    staff, the best I've ever worked with and I'd stack it up with anybody.
    
    While Victor Kiam has done some stupid things, he's done the right
    thing by hiring Sam Jankovich, giving him complete control and getting
    out of the way.  Except for the fact that Sam's not the coach, it's a
    repeat of the same scenario as during the Fairbanks years and that's
    why I'm optimistic about the future.  Things are a lot more
    businesslike down there now and it's like it was when Fairbanks was
    there.  Mac is coming in, like Fairbanks and Meyer, to a situation
    where he has no previous loyalties to any of the veterans and will do
    what needs to be done to clean house.  Unlike Meyer, he has pro
    experience and has a more pro-oriented coaching staff - only two of his
    pro "rookies" are in directly important positions.  Clearly Mac is a
    rebuilding coach, both on and off the field, and I hope he can coach
    long enough to get a Super Bowl shot.  The success or failure of the
    program can only really be determined by whoever takes over for Mac in
    a few years - will he keep turning over the team or will he let it get
    old?  I'm not saying this to minimize my expectations for Mac because I
    fully believe he's the right guy for the job both on and off the field,
    he has a track record of success wherever he's been and I believe he
    will take us back to the Super Bowl if his age and health will allow
    him to coach long enough.
    
    John 

 John, agreed with most of what you said about Fairbanks except I felt he
 was a lousy game day coach much like Dean Smith. He had a good eye for 
 talent and preparing that talent but when the heat of the battle started
 he made questionable moves. As for the other coaches moving on and etc
 alot of that can be attributed to the good ole boys' network....

 mike

    I'm suprised there's been no mention that the Pat's told Grogan
    "see yah".
    
    I was wondering about that.  Grogan said he wouldn't "retire" and
    he feels he can still play the game , mostly as a back-up QB to some
    team (the Fish?).
    
    Could anybody expand on the following:
    1) if Grogan did retire, would he get his/a pension?
    2) Since he was unprotected and untaken, now that he's history, does
    the Pats or the league have a financial obligation to him?
    3) What happens to players in similiar circumstances?
    
    
    Aside for Stevie boy's competitive ability and toughness, I'd say
    his 14-16 years with the Pat's were mixed with either total brilliance
    or total incompetence.  When watching him, deep down I always knew he'd
    find some way to toss an interception or find some way to snatch
    defeat from the jaws of victory.  Sure, he's had a couple of really
    great games but I think most of his career (results wise) has him as
    a "OK but not great" QB.
    
    Personally, I like Grogan as a person although I've only met him
    through Lorin and Wally's weekly radio interviews on WVBF.  He DOES
    have what appears to be the most professional demeaner and moderate
    ego.  I'm not bashing the guy, as a person, but as a player.
    
    Anyway, so long Grogan, (obligatory statement here) thanks for
    all the memories.
    
    Kev
    

    1.  He absolutely does get a pension.  He played more than long enough
    to qualify.
    
    2.  The team and the league have no financial obligation to him
    whatsoever.  His contract was up at the end of this year but it wasn't
    guaranteed (few NFL contracts are) so he could quit or the team could
    cut him with no obligation at all.  The team wasn't obligated to him
    any further until he stepped on the field in September.  Baseball and
    basketball get in trouble in similar situations because they have so
    many guaranteed contracts, and very often their decisions to keep or
    cut someone depends on the amount of money they have to pay out.  Such
    is rarely the case in football.
    
    3.  If he'd been claimed on waivers, he would have been obligated to
    play for that team and that team would have been obligated to pay him
    under the terms of his contract with the Patriots.  He's now completely
    free to make his own deal anywhere else and the team he makes the deal
    with is only obligated to pay him the league minimum for a veteran with
    his years of service (which is substantially greater than the rookie
    minimum and which very often leads to marginal vets being cut in favor
    of lower paid rookies simply because of the higher minimum salaries). 
    He doesn't have an agent, interestingly enough.
    
    I'm really torn on the decision, both personally and professionally. 
    Steve was the first and last Patriots player I've really known well. 
    He was a rookie when I first worked with the team, in 1975, and he was
    very unheralded yet when he stepped on the field, I could see that not
    only did he have great physical tools but he knew the game well and was
    a tremendous leader.  I knew he'd make it but I never dreamed he'd do
    as well as he did.  More than that he was always very friendly and I
    remember him on a couple of rainy days picking my brains about what New
    England was like and we'd talk about how different it was from Kansas. 
    When I worked with the team again in 1978 and throughout the many years
    afterward, whenever we saw each other, he was always very friendly and
    was the same guy I first met back in 1975.  That's one of the great
    things about him, no matter how well or badly things may have gone for
    him, he never changed.
    
    If any of you saw the clips of the press conference, that was the real
    Steve Grogan.  He was very humble and very unassuming, no matter what. 
    He never enjoyed the limelight and preferred time with his family no
    matter what, which is why he probably won't go into coaching.  He
    married his hometown sweetheart and she was about the nicest of any
    Patriots player wife I ever met.  I never met his boys but he's a
    devoted dad and I'm sure they're just the same as he is.
    
    To me, Steve Grogan was always courage and leadership personified.  He
    always stood in there to take the hit, he never flinched under
    pressure, he played hurt and stood tall.  He could inspire other
    players like few other players ever could.  His numbers aren't Hall of
    Fame numbers (he had 20 more interceptions than touchdowns, for
    example) but to me, he was a great quarterback.
    
    I think he's better off physically not being with the Patriots because
    with our offensive line, he'd get killed.  I'm sure that what has
    happened has hurt him but he understands it's a part of the game.  I'm
    not sure whether we'll be better off without him.
    
    Shed no tears for him.  He had a better career than anyone probably
    ever thought he would, he has a great family, he has alternatives and
    he'll do just fine no matter what he does.  I'm going to miss him,
    though.
    
    John

    Well said, Ninj'.
    
    Since Stevie hasn't retired from the game but has no employment (at
    this time), is there a time limit for him to "officially retire"?
    I mean, what if, for whatever reason, his present situation weren't
    to change for say.... 3 years (like he's got enough doh-ray-me to
    get by) and THEN, even though he's been out of the game for 3 years,
    announces his retirement.
    
    I'm curious and wondering when Steve'll realize he's too battered
    to play (IMO) and retire.
    
    Kev
    

    Nope.  He's like any other player who's been cut.  He doesn't have to
    announce anything, he's just unemployed.
    
    The impression I got from the press conference is that he'd try to hook
    on with a contender but only if he thought he was going to be around
    for most of the season.  He doesn't want to be an itinerant journeyman,
    playing a game here, 2 games there and so forth.  He realizes that if
    he's not picked up by the start of the season then chances are he won't
    ever play again - unless there's a real emergency.  Most teams are
    scared off by his medical history, too.
    
    John

    	The guy was one gutsy competitor.  But some of the shots he
    was taking the last couple of years should convince him to retire.
    
    				/Don

    Slasher,
    
    "..but some of the shots he was taking....should convince him to
    retire"
    
    Maybe THAT's exactly why he won't - too many synapsis knocked out of
    place?
    
    Kev
    

>>    	The guy was one gutsy competitor.  But some of the shots he
>>    was taking the last couple of years should convince him to retire.

Or go to a team with an offensive line.

    Did the Raiders say they need a QB ?

    Grogan was released, Wilson retired.  That leaves Hodson, Mueller (is
    that right?  the guy they picked up via Plan B).  Anyone else on New
    England's QB depth chart?

    Tom Hodson, #3 draft choice in 1990
    
    Hugh Millen, Plan B free agent.  Has been a backup with Rams and
    Falcons.  Fiancee Lisa Coles was Director of Cheerleaders for the
    Falcons and is now Director of Cheerleaders for us.
    
    Scott Zolak.  4th round draft choice from Maryland.  Grew up in same
    town as Joe Montana, was the ball boy for Montana's high school team
    (allegedly)
    
    Most likely scenario seems to be Millen starting with Hodson and Zolak
    being developed for the future.
    
    John
    
    PS - Wilson was in effect released since he was put out on Plan B, no
    one signed him and we didn't take him back.  Same scenario as Grogan. 
    Only difference is that Wilson announced his retirement and Grogan
    hasn't yet.

    How aboyut Proctor ? He's supposed to be a talent, but a raw one.
    Wouldn't this be an ideal situation ?

    I gotta admit, I was a big fan of Grogan, and for some of the same
    reasons previously mentioned.  Like, his toughness, his leadership
    abilities, his ability to rise from a relatively unknown college player
    to a long-time starter in the NFL.  
    
    The one negative aspect I felt about him was his tremendous desire to
    win often resulted in his attempt to force a pass, resulting in an
    interception.  This is often a problem with young QB's, and Grogan fit
    into that catagory.  But, the better QB's either learn from that
    experience and cut down on the attempts, or their team improves such
    that the need to try such a play is reduced in frequency.  I think
    Grogan cut-back somewhat, and the Pats did improve.  But, he still
    tried to throw the ball thru a defender, and on too many occasions.
    Perhaps that was due to his competetiveness, or his desire to lead.
    Unfortunately, it had, in my opinion, a negative result far too often.
    
    Anyway, I salute him for his toughness, but more importantly to me, his
    humbleness in public.  In that regard, he is what I remember from my
    youth; pro athletes who acted as men, not boys.  Guys who gave their
    teammates credit while ducking the publicity aimed at them.  That's
    become pretty rare over the last 20 years or so.  If I were to select
    an example of what a MAN should be, I certainly wouldn't pick Reggie
    Jackson or Ricky Henderson, or Jose Canseco, or a Pete Rose.  I'd pick
    someone like Grogan, or Al Kaline, or Robert Parrish.  There are many
    others I'm sure, but we notice the other type, primarily because the
    reason I fault them is the reason I know of them.  Fat Heads.
    
    I think Grogan can help out a team with overall strength if they have a
    problem at QB.  He CAN'T help out a cellar team on the field for any
    period of time.
    
    I wish him good health and good luck.  Thanks for the memories.
    
    lEe

    Rumors have it that Steve G. has been approached by the Rams
    as a third-string Qb....


    REK

Nice article by Will McDonough on page 2 of the Sports section of today's Boston
Globe.  He echos the sentiment of many of us, and has some good quotes from 
Grogan's former teammates.

I heard the Grogan to Rams rumor on the radio this morning - don't remember 
which station.

=Bob=

    I heard it on WBZ.

	I agree with Doc (even though he trashed the only "manly" sport 
left in North America - i.e. hockey) that the Pats should invite Proctor
to camp.  They've got plenty of time to develop him and it was said he had 
the best arm of anyone in camp last year.  This is assuming that nobody 
already got him under contract.  Signing Proctor would be no gamble.  8^o

				/Don

    The Patriots lost an important member of the family yesterday as Bill
    McPeak, former Director of Pro Scouting, died suddenly of a heart
    attack.  Bill had just retired last week after 12 years with the
    Patriots and was getting set to move to Florida.  (His replacement,
    ironically, is Rod Rust).
    
    Bill was a graduate of Pitt and played for the Steelers at the same
    time Bucko Kilroy was playing for the Eagles.  Bill was the head coach
    of the Redskins from 1961-65.
    
    While an assistant coach with the Dolphins in 1974, Bill suffered a
    stroke and the Dolphins fired him.  He was left with limited use of his
    left arm and hand but successfully rehabilitated his speech on his own. 
    He showed a lot of courage in coming back from this, especially since
    he was out of football for a time until we hired him in 1979.
    
    I saw Bill at the draft a couple of weeks ago and he looked fine.  I
    was down there for a meeting last week, found out he was retiring but
    couldn't find him to wish him well.  Bill was a truly nice man.  I used
    to help him out with the operation of the "Bill McPeak Gong Show",
    which was the in-house name for the annual free agent tryout camp.  It
    was a privilege to have known him and worked with him.  
    
    I'll miss him.
    
    John

Condolences John....

You know, so many times I've heard about people who have just retired
having the old ticker go.  There's GOT to be a correlation.

I was worried about my dad when he retired, but hell, he works harder now
than he EVER did when he was working (always got some project going)
so I don't worry too much any more.....


'Saw

    I just got back from Bill's wake in Foxboro.  I'm not sure how many
    players were there this afternoon, but there was only one player there
    tonight - the much-maligned Irving Fryar.
    
    Bucko Kilroy was pretty badly shaken up by all of this because he and
    Bill played against each other, coached together and worked together
    with the Patriots for the last 12 years.  Bucko hired him in 1979 and
    will be the team's representative at the funeral in the Pittsburgh area
    on Saturday.
    
    John

	There is a very interesting article in the Globe's Living/Arts
section today about the Patriots "secret weapon" (i.e. the Cheerleaders).  
Supposedly the introduction  of these frolicking females will "change the 
staduim's image as a place notorious for Animal House behavior and turn it 
onto a genteel playpen for family fun."  Oh yeah.  Definitely.  The 
parading of scantily clad young nubiles will certainly attract the more 
cultured types to the new mecca of professional football and generate a 
Walt Disney like family atmosphere.  Suuuure it will...
    
				/Don

>parading of scantily clad young nubiles will certainly attract the more 
             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    Slasher, tm that sucker or I'll sue yer arse from here to Kingdom Come.
    
    Mark.
    

    After attending games in other stadiums around the country, the
    Patriots have a L-O-N-G way to go before they even hope to have an
    arena for familys to attend. Parking stinks, bathrooms are too small
    and not plentiful enough, not enough concession stands, access is the
    worst of ANY pro stadium and there seems to be this mindset that it is
    noble to arrive for the game at 9:00 AM, start drinking enough beer so
    that you can urinate in front of familys when they DO arrive for the
    game.
    
    I know there are many true football fans who attend but the image that
    Schaefer/Sullivan/Foxboro stadium has fostered all these years will
    take a long time to change.
    
    Rich
    

>    I know there are many true football fans who attend but the image that
>    Schaefer/Sullivan/Foxboro stadium has fostered all these years will
>    take a long time to change.

Unfortunately, Fenway Park seems to be making an effort to catch up.  (no, I'm 
NOT refering to the blow up doll).


=Bob=

    
    That entire article was a riot!  Just wait till Bella English gets
    ahold of her co-worker on that one!
    
    glenn
    
    

    
    The Pats got their heads handed to them by the Skins lasted Saturday
    night.  Their "new improved" innovative offense consists of two plays
    of "no gain and a cloud of dust", a sack, and a punt.
    
    But that's not important right now.  I am pleased to announce that the
    new "Patriettes" are simply mouthwatering.  As opposed to the barkers
    they had in the past who simply did a few junior high school cheers and
    a cartwheel, I must say that these new babes are true proffessionals.
    
    First of all, they are gorgeous, or did I already say that?  Long hair,
    long legs, big smiles, and cute "innie" belly buttons.  
    
    And move?  Well, my hat is off to the choreographer.  They do some
    great dance moves to "Can't Touch This", "Wipeout", and others.  I even
    joined in the singing with "Boom, lacquer lacquer  lacquer..."  One
    could almost forget the pasting the Pats were getting.
    
    Dickstah
    

    Who appears to be the front runner for the starting QB job?
    
    It's unrealistic to expect a miracle turnaround for this team; you
    don't go from 1-15 to contender overnight.  However, I don't think it
    unreasonable to at least expect effort and progress this season...if 
    the Pats can at least provide that much, I'll gladly stick by them in
    hopes of better days ahead.
    
    From what little I've seen of McPherson in TV interviews I like him, 
    *much* more energy/enthusiasm than the last few Patriots head coaches.
    
    
    py

       So you went after all eh Dickstah! Where'd you sit? I know, I know
    anywhere you wanted. You're absolutely correct about the cheerleaders,
    mouthwatering covers it nicely. The new field looked good too. So did
    Irving.
       The part I liked best though was the FG when they were behind 21-0.
                                          Denny

    Denny, what's the going price of a tickets to see a good football
    team play the pats?
    
    REK

       $28 for sideline, $18(?) in the E-Zone.
                                 Denny

    
    >       So you went after all eh Dickstah! Where'd you sit?
    
    Why, on my ass of course. 8^)  I had tickets up with Bob Eucker, but
    sat down in 217 since there was plenty of room.  Unfortunately, the
    security bastards blocked all the aisles leading down to the sections
    any lower than that, even though those were half-empty, too.  Sheesh,
    you'd think they would at least back off after half-time and let the
    people move around a bit.  Hell, what are they losing?
    
    Dickstah
    

    The Cards marketing folks are having fun with this weekend's matchup.  The 
    newspaper ads show a Patriot missile launching and the caption reads: 
    "Under normal conditions, we're not afraid of Patriots!"
    
    I just might splurge for the game.  They're supposed to have a real
    Patriot missile on display at halftime.  Veterans are getting discount
    rates on tickets.
    
    Mike

    Not only were they a 1-15 team last year, but they have a new coach, a
    new offense, and (I think) a new defense.  I'm with Paul.  I'm not
    expecting much either, but I'll be watching.

       I'm not expecting much either. But they're shooting themselves in
    the foot by not signing their holdout defensive players. If they can't
    pay competitively, they should git outta the business!
       Roland James was informed he will be waived if he doesn't retire.
                                    Denny

    Talking about expectations...
    
    I was expecting that *maybe* they'd win 4 or 5.  I've changed my mind.
    They're going to be extremely lucky to match last season's win total.
    
    My condolences.

 You're just saying that KBD because you saw what happened when you wrote
 off the red soxs...you're hoping for the same effect here...

 ;^)

 mike

    Ouch!
    
    Hey Dickstah,
    You meant the team chant should be "Boom,
    shellack,shellack,shellack,Boom,etc. "  Incoming!!
    
    MikeL
    

    
    I predict the Pats will go 6-10 this year.
    
    That is, they'll score in 6 games, get shut out in 10.
    
    Purely "offensive" touchdowns (not gift fumbles and the like), will
    be in the single digits.  This is the worst team *ever*, IMO.
    
    Dickstah
    

    Great line in today's Glob regarding the current Pat's.
    
    It went something along the lines of "This year could be the first time
    in the history of professional sports when both the fans AND the
    players show up for the game wearing bags over their heads...."
    
    Oh yeah, this one's for Dan  "The Pats are the Columbia University
    football team of professional sports!"
    
    ;+)
    
    Kev
    

       I saw that Kev.How about the picture on the front of the Sports
    section of the 2 girls and the kid. At first glance I thought they were
    both wearing wedding gowns. I couldn't figure out if they were marrying
    each other or if the kid got real lucky!
                               Denny

    From today's Herald (honest!):  "In an effort to lure patrons back
    to the stadium, the new Patriots cheerleaders have agreed to enter
    the stands at halftime and perform (expletive deleted) for lucky
    fans.  'The game may not be interesting, but the action in the
    stands should pack the place', said a member of the Pats front office,
    who requested anonymity."
    
    NAZZ 

    I hear Hart Lee Dykes is out for the year. True?
    
    Who appears to be the leading QB candidate; Hodson or Millen?
    
    3-4 wins for them this year would indicate, to me, they are on the road
    to respectability.
    
    Rich
    

    Hart Lee Dykes is indeed out for the year and has been placed on IR. 
    He broke his kneecap in the Phoenix game.
    
    No one is really standing out as the leading QB candidate.
    
    John

�    I hear Hart Lee Dykes is out for the year. True?
 
    True.  Dykes fractured his kneecap.
       
�    Who appears to be the leading QB candidate; Hodson or Millen?
    
    According to coach MacPherson, it's still a tossup.  A decision will be
    made after the Giants game, but it won't be etched in stone.

    Thanks Mac and John.
    
    Actually, I like the idea of going into the late pre season games
    without knowing who the starting QB will be. It keeps everyone sharp
    and anxious to excell.
    
    Rich
    

    
       Are the Pats even close to signing John Stephens?
    
       Needs ta know fo me FFL team.
    
       Thanks.
    
    						 glen j.
    

    No.  At least, not to the best of my knowledge.
    
    A&W

        I wouldn't count on Stephens starting the season. And with his
    history of injury I wouldn't count on him much in FFL with a late
    start. Leomard Russel will outgain him anyway this year.
                                            Denny

    Given our offensive output last year and our likely offensive output
    this year, why would any fantasy league owner want to have any Patriots
    on the team?
    
    John

Personally, I think the offensive output in the locker room and the 
Owner's office was much more than the offensive output on the field....


;^)

    
    Holdout Maurice Hurst has finally signed on for two (maybe three)
    years.  Part of the deal is if he plays well enough he will be allowed
    to become a free agent for the option year.  How's that for incentive?
    If he plays lousy, why would they want to keep him anyway?
    
    Only on the Patriots....
    
    Dickstah
    

    John H.
    I feel kinda bad for Mac. Here's a coach who's got the fire and
    enthusiasm but not the foot soldiers. It's gonna be a long year.
    Here's hoping someone buys out Kiam and commits to keep the Pats
    here in New England. I'll be there for at least the Denver game.
    Gonna brin the Pats' biggest fan ( the wife ). She's supported them
    through thick and thin over the years. Wish I could say that.
    Ciao
    
    MikeL
    

    If the Pats can rebuild the way Dallas has, I'll live with a couple
    more losing seasons.  Dallas did have the benefit of a lopsided
    Minnesota trade, though.

    Further, Mac, I don't see that the Pats have anyone of Herschel
    Walker's caliber to offer as trade bait.
    
    Mac seems to be the right coach for the situation.  Sam is saying (and
    doing) a lot of the right things also.  There seems to be a willingness
    to face up to and correct the non-football related problems that were
    keeping folks away from Foxboro, to the extent that they are able with
    the stadium contract they have.
    
    But the team on the field simply doesn't have the horses.  Hasn't
    really since John Hannah retired.  (I don't think any of us fully
    realized how critical he had been until he was gone.  I know I didn't.) 
    And it will be a long, slow slog while the team digs its way out.
    
    And they need to keep the muzzle on Kiam, BIG TIME.
    
    A&W

    It took a long time for the quality of the talent to degenerate and it
    will take a longer time for the quality to regenerate.  I hope we can
    get it done before expansion or else it will be even harder.
    
    I also feel that Mac and Sam are the right people for the job, though I
    imagine Mac may look wistfully in the direction of the Carrier Dome
    this season and wonder why he ever left.  Both of them are very good at
    taking the heat and staying the course with what they think is right,
    and not be panicked into doing something stupid.  Sam has made an
    especially big difference in the attitude and quality of the front
    office as well.  It's a much more professional atmosphere instead of
    the family atmosphere that's always been there.  I know Sam and his
    staff are all working especially hard to improve the environment for
    the fans who go to the games.
    
    I never knew much about Sam before he came here and have only met him
    once but I'm impressed by him.  I am of course a loyal Coach Mac
    disciple and I have complete faith and patience that he will be able to
    get things improved.  He's handling things very well and I hope to see
    him after tomorrow's game to at least say hello to him.
    
    All isn't perfect but I hope the improvement comes before we're forced
    to move, because the New England fans won't support a losing football
    team.
    
    John
    

 While Sam and Mac maybe great guys and the right guys to do the job, I can't
 help but feel they are doom to failures because good ole Vic is trying to
 demolish the team so he can move it to greener pastures. Can't say I blame
 him with the lease he has...

 mike

    
    As also stated by others, it probably wouldn't have mattered anyway
    as long as Kiam is running the circus, but I think I would have
    preferred that the Patriots were being rebuilt by a younger guy
    who came directly from the pro ranks, like the Giants and Eagles
    are doing.  I know MacPherson has pro coaching experience, but it's
    a been a while, and I think this situation is going to take a lot
    out of him.  Even if he does get this turned around in 4-5 years,
    at 65 years of age will he still be able and willing to continue
    (no age discrimation comments, please, I'm just trying to be 
    realistic.  The job of an NFL head coach is not an ordinary 
    occupation.)?  In football as opposed to other sports, coaching
    stability is of paramount importance, a truism the Patriots have
    been all too familiar with in the past...
    
    glenn
    

    PATS 24
    GIANTS 3
    
    Go Figure !! Anyway, great Pats win even if it is pre-season. More than
    anything, this team needed a win so they realize they can. Wouldn't
    predict a victory turn-around (no Super Bowl this year) but a
    confidence turn-around possible and more victories than last year.
    
    God, I hope so....
    
    regards

    Well, I'm going out on a limb, and predict that the Pats will
    accomplish something this year that is impossible for the Giants to do.
    The Bills can't, and neither can the 49'ers.  Matter of fact, most
    teams won't be able to do so, either.
    
    The Pats will DOUBLE their wins compared to lasted year!!!111
    
    And, I'll bet that if they don't, the won't lose more than 1 more game
    than last year, tu!  :*)
    
    lEe, a_loooooooong_time_suffering_Pats_fan.

    
    	Congrats to the Pats...........whats that say for the Giants?
    

I'll repeat what I put in over in the Pats note...


The Patriots were incredibly up for the game (and who wouldn't be).  The
Giants were incredibly flat.

The Giants line was like a seive, not the least of the problems was Jumbo.

The Giants also had NO pass rush, and their defensive line was not in it all
that much on the run either.


I'd say the Giants just weren't up for the game, and when the Pats struck
and struck hard right off, the Giants didn't meet the challenge.  Personally
I think it's a good thing that happened.  A little dose of reality is GREAT
for a team in the Giants position right now.

I don't think the Giants are out of it Hal, but then again we know that you
have major problems with the concept of reality anyway.  I will say that I
have a feeling that the 'Skins will take the division and the Giants will
end up as a wildcard.  That's just a gut feel though.

Simms did not play, and Perez came in late, and didn't look all that bad.


'Saw

    I'll echo what Frank said.  We needed a win in this one a lot more than
    the Giants did.  More importantly than that, we needed to play well.
    
    While a win does a lot to boost the morale (for me, too - I haven't
    seen a win in person since December 3, 1989) what matters is that we
    looked good doing it.  We blocked well, we tackled well, didn't get
    very many penalties, only had to punt once and only had 1 or 2
    turnovers.  We also answered many of our personnel questions and all
    around, I'm very pleased but I'm still realistic about what the season
    will be like.  We have a long, long way to go.
    
    A team like the Giants is only concerned about getting through healthy
    at this point.  Their people are pissed because they came out flat and
    looked lousy but they'll be at or close to the top again.  Remember
    back to December 30, 1990 - the same thing happened.  They came out
    flat, we came out pumped and damn near beat them, and you saw how much
    that bothered the Giants the rest of the way.
    
    John

       Coach Mac was pumped down there Sat. He was pacing around, yapping
    at everybody, slapping people on the back. It was GREAT! What a change
    over the lasted 2 huh! 
       Hey! we pissed and moaned about the poundings in the first 3 games,
    so I think we should be allowed to celebrate this one. 
                                    Denny

The most fun part about the game was that the kid from Deliverance 
(you know, the one who's grandfather was also his father) was sitting
two rows in front of us.

Everytime the Patriots would do something even semi-good, this kid would
turn around, wave that stupid foam hand with the index finger, grin
a toofless grin, and make the stupidest noises I ever heard.

I figure the kid must live under an overpass on I-495 or something...

The funniest noise outta the kid all day was this "Eeeee, Eeeee, Eeeee"
sound that made me almost piss myself everytime.

'Saw

'Saw,
	/Don and I saw the kid from Deliverance after the game, he mumbled
something about TONE EASTON IS NOTE TOO BLAM.

Eeee, Eeee, Eeee

:-)

Chap

    
    	That was my cousin Pervis from Arkansas you knucklehaids!
    
    	Claybone

Are his molars really in the front, or does it just look that way.

And Claybone, if that's kin, the (as Arnold would say) you must be
one, ugly, mother******.......


Eeee, Eeee, Eeee.....


'Saw

    Don't worry Mark, we saw you too, nice costume...

Yeah!  Markie boy hit the yuppie-dom Trifecta and just missed the Grand Slam.

btw, does your wife know about that blonde?????

'Saw

    Pro football = 1/4 talent
    		   1/4 preparation
    		   1/4 emotion
    		   1/4 execution
    
    Pats had 3 of 4 on Saturday; Giants only had talent.
    
    NAZZ

       Mark, what kinda wine was that you 2 were drinking? And we did like
    the tablecloth. Nice touch!
                                     Denny

We were suspicious when they drove into the parking lot in a VOLVO,
We were concerned when they broke out the wine glasses and table cloth,
But our worsted fears were confirmed with the sighting of the freakin'
DOCKERS label.

How could this be ? YUPsters in Foxboro ?  Couldn't be.

Ah,  I know,  

Must of been GIANTS fans,

That explains it. I was worried there for a minute.

Chap

Well, it would appear that after watching Leonard Russell run for 122
yards against the Giants, John Stephens thought it was time to get back to
work.

According to this mornings Globe, Stephens signed a contract late last 
night.  "Terms of the deal were not immediately available".

Nothing like a little friendly competition to help work out your 
contractual differences.

Chap

No, that's not it.  They threatened him with having to squeal like a pig
for the DeliveranceDude....

8^)

    .176 John H.
    
      Figured he was one of the better RBs still available.
    
      Judging by the performances of some other RBs not selected,
    Stephens might not last on the roster.  
    
    
    						 glen j.

    Tommy Hodson was named the starting QB for the season opener against
    Indy.
    
    Stephens has signed.

    Sammy Martain is also in.
    
                                               Dan

    Parade in January!
    
    Mark.

    Counting Incentives, Stephen's will make slightly more than
    
    a Million Bucks a year!
    
    Doesn't sound like HE was the skeered guy!
    
    Kev
    

    Despite the fact that the last reply ran severely afoul of the
    Apostrophe Police, the Patriots won the opener today 16-7.  Jason
    Staurovsky was 3/3 on field goals.  Hodson looked sharp with 1 TD to
    Marv Cook, no ints and one sack (on which he fumbled).  Dean Biasucci
    of the Colts was 0/4 on field goals (one of those was blocked).  Jeff
    George was sacked 4 times and threw 2 interceptions, one of which was
    the first of Andre Tippett's illustrious career.
    
    John

Congrats, John...

Now if they could just beat someone besides the Colts!  8^)

But hey, a win is a win is a win.....


'Saw

�Now if they could just beat someone besides the Colts!  8^)
    
    Cleveland is coming into Foxboro next week ~/~

    I shoulda put this in sooner but what the hey, the season's still
    young.
    
    Every Monday night, WBZ AM radio (1030) is broadcasting a 3 hour
    (6:00PM-9:00PM) "Monday-night Quarterback" show with Coach MacPherson
    and Sam Jenkowitcz (sp?) live from some bar in Foxboro.  They have
    good interviews, ton's of hype so ya buy tickets, call-in's etc.
    
    I'd rate it ~6-7.  Worth a try
    
    Kev
    

    Peter Meade, who normally does a night time political type talk show
    and Alan Segal, who's in the WBZ Sports Department, host the show from
    the Hall of Fame Sports Lounge in the End Zone Motor Inn just down Rt 1
    from the stadium.  Sam Jankovich is there from 6-7.  Coach Mac is there
    from 7-8.  Some players come in from 8-9.  Sam and Mac are both taking
    calls and talking to fans live.
    
    As part of their coverage, WBZ has a 2-hour pregame show each week as
    well.
    
    John

       WEEI also is running a pregame show.
                                 Denny

/Don, Denny and myself are planning a little road trip down to the Foxy
Lady following the Patriots - Browns game on Sunday.

If any of you ::SPORTSters that may be attending the game would like to
join us, let us know.


Chap

       Chap, don't expect to hear from any Spots fans. They don't want
    anyone to know where they're parkin'. That way they won't have to make
    up any excuses after the game. Besides they don't like that kinda
    entertainment. Bernice wouldn't approve!
                                           Denny

So when was the last time the Patriots beat a team other than Indianapolis?

j.

Denny,	
	Being that the Browns fan(s) are supplying the food and the beer, I
figured the least we could do is invite them to join us.

:-)

Chap

    on the FL, absoulutly Beautifulll Entertainment but Leave 1 Piece
    2 many.....Maybe Dec is paying some of you guys too much...Ticket
    Food, Beer and then a Road Trip.....I need to change jobs !!!
    								 MaB

       Hey Brooksie, some of us know how to make 'sacrifices' for the
    important things in life!
                                    Denny

    	After this week's victory over Clevescum our favorite moderator
    (i.e. Jeff Needle) will be hoisting his Dockers� on the Pats bandwagon.
    And with regards to the Foxy Lady I only go to watch the dance
    routines, nothing else...
    
    				/Don

    Other than last week's Giants game, the last win over someone other
    than the Colts took place on November 19, 1989, at Foxboro, 33-24 over
    the Bills.  The last road win someplace other than Indianapolis was the
    1989 season opener, September 10 to be exact, 27-24 over the Jets at
    the Meadowlands.  In 1989, we swept the Colts, beat the Jets on the
    road and beat Houston and the Bills at home.
    
    John

    Jeff, no problem.  I didn't do it from memory.  I keep a Patriots Media
    Guide in my office and if they weren't so damned expensive, I'd keep a
    NFL Media Guide and Record Book here too.
    
    John

    Most of the information about yesterday's game has been covered in the
    Browns note, but I do want to make a few observations.
    
    There were quite a few Browns fans there yesterday including what
    looked to be a few carloads from Ohio.  Loud and loyal they seemed to
    be, especially the group sitting just to the left of the press box. 
    Most of the trouble I saw yesterday seemed to be battles between Browns
    fans and Patriots fans.
    
    Patriots management continues to make efforts to improve the atmosphere
    there.  While walking into the stadium, there were little jazz combos
    and other bands in the area.  There are now information booths all over
    the place.  Sam Jankovich and his staff continue to walk through the
    stands getting an eye on what's going on, where the trouble is and what
    to do to correct it.
    
    I thought we did have a bigger crowd than the 35K or so announced.  It
    was 35K well-spread out because I didn't really see any big chunks of
    open seats.
    
    The grass on the field looked very nice but I noticed a couple of big
    divots torn up during the game.  I think it's going to be another year
    for the grass to really take root.
    
    We still have a long way to go on the field but I think we'll get
    there.
    
    John

	Tommy Chap and I were guests of Sam Jankovich at the Stadium Club 
this morning in Foxboro.  Jankovich has been having these breakfasts with 
Patriot season ticket holders, chosen randomly, to sound them out.  I was 
definitely was impressed by the guy and appreicated his candor when asked 
about the team moving.  He stated that the Patriots cannot afford to wait 
until they start winning again to draw fans and if attendance sags it very 
well could be sayonara.  

	Coach Mac spoke first because he had scheduled meetings and you 
gotta love this guy.  Chap and I were sitting next to the window when he 
walks by and says "What a nice veiw up here.  Another game like Sunday's 
and I'll be watching from up here too."  After a brief speech MacPherson 
started to head out but he grabbed Jankovich and said... "If you're going 
to keep kissing me I'll have to ask you to do what my wife asks me to do. 
SHAVE!" Then he plants one on Sam's cheek.  He's a piece of work.  I would 
love to see this guy turn things around.

				/Don

 Re: MacPherson ...
 
 I, too, think that New England has hired a good man for the job and
 I'd like to see him do well.
 
 One thing concerns me, though ... The highlight films from last
 weekend's games showed a clip of MacPherson *vigorously* calling for
 a time out.   We're talking major arm gyrations, top-of-the-lungs
 screaming, and a very stressed-out beet-red complexion as he
 frantically called onto the field for somebody to ask for a "T".
 
 Somebody please make sure Mac has a good doctor.  I'd hate to see him
 check out early.
 
 Bob Hunt
 
 P.S.  Jimmy Johnson should review the film clip to remember how to
 call one.

>              <<< Note 34.232 by SHALOT::HUNT "RIP, Brad Davis" >>>
                                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Not the movie actor I hope.  If so, how?

> I, too, think that New England has hired a good man for the job and
> I'd like to see him do well.
 
Me too.  I enjoyed going that day to see the Jint/Pats.  I enjoyed the
cheerleaders.

(/Don, didja get us dates???????????)

I enjoyed seeing the effort Mac had put into the team...


'Saw

    Movie actor Brad Davis died of AIDS, allegedly from having shared dirty
    needles in his youth.
    
    Bob, Mac is about the last guy I know who'll have a heart attack, at
    least from stress.  He has a temper and he does lose it but I think
    it's healthier than keeping everything in.  Having been the target of
    said temper once or twice during my college days, I understand it.  He
    lets things out and he gets angry but he tends to forget about it right
    away and unlike with a lot of people, you always know where you stand
    with him.  He quit smoking about 5 years ago and he's put on a little
    weight since then, but otherwise, I think he's in fine health.  He
    always does the calisthenics with the team (always did too, except on
    game day).  I'm probably more apt to have a heart attack than Mac
    because I tend to keep things in too much.
    
    George Luongo, the Patriots equipment manager, is another let-it-all-go
    type of individual and I can just imagine the fireworks when/if he and
    Mac ever have a disagreement. 
    
    John

Well, "O", now that Mac has made it to the big dance, he won't be fully
accepted until he does an Ultra-Slimfast ad.

btw, I saw a picture of Tootie (from that TV show).  Her titles look 
even more impressive now that she's shed some pounds.  Also, Peter
Deluise (formerly of 21 Jump Street) also Slimfasted and is looking 
properly pumped....

hth,
'Saw

 'Saw, Brad Davis died late Sunday from one or more of the usual
 complications from the AIDS virus.
 
 Apparently, he was diagnosed with the virus in 1985 but kept quiet
 about it so he could continue acting.   His widow, a Hollywood
 casting director, stated that he got the virus from sharing dirty
 needles back when he was using drugs pretty heavily.
 
 I loved "Midnight Express".   He did great work in that film and the
 music was simply haunting.   Cured me of any urge whatsoever to try
 and smuggle drugs outta Turkey.  Brutal.
 
 Bob Hunt
 
 P.S.  I also saw where Belinda Mason, the only member of the
 President's Commission On AIDS with the virus, also died on Sunday. 
 She was a very vocal critic of Bush policy.

    Tommy Hodson has been named the Pats' starting QB for the Steelers
    game.

    
    Saw an article in the Woostah papah about the NFL considering building
    a stadium for the Patriots, and that Woostah wants to be considered.
    This is the first I've heard any mention of this, and was wondering if
    there are any other places where the NFL itself has stepped in to help
    build a facility just to keep a team in a particular market.
    
    It's good news for New England football fans who stand a chance right
    now of having *no* professional team at all, and with so many colleges
    around, I don't think the slack could be picked up there.
    
    Actually, Worcester would be great as it is centrally located.  They'd
    still have the Boston population to draw from (mass transit would be
    expanded out this way), and I'm sure they would pick up thousands of
    fans from the huge greater Springfield area, as well as Haafah CT.
    
    BTW, I stopped by the Greendale Mall on the way home lasted night to
    catch a little of the Eddie Andleman talk show.  There were maybe only
    around thirty or so interested watchers.  Actually, I enjoy the local
    broadcast since now I don't lose the signal half way home.  Every two
    minutes the local businesses were sending over all kinds of food to
    Eddie and the boys in hopes of getting a free plug.  No wonder Eddie
    is the size he is!
    
    Dickstah
    

    The NFL has never, to my knowledge, helped anybody out in building a
    facility.  Paul Tagliabue has mentioned that given the cost of stadia
    nowadays the NFL may have no choice but to step in and help.
    
    John

    
    Well, since Sack and General Cinema have been building theater chains
    so people will (surprise!) have access to and attend movies to support
    their industry, I guess there is no revolutionary concept here.
    
    I like to think there will always be pro football somewhere in New
    England if for no other reason than that it is a proven viable market.
    Now if we only had a quality product....
    
    Dickstah
    

       There has been talk of a stadium at Fort Devens. Chap and /Don might
    be able to give some more details since they were shmoozing with the
    bigwigs lasted week.
                                  Denny

    
    Devens certainly has the space for both stadium and ample parking. 
    It's getting the State to expand Rte 2 in that area or perhaps connect
    directly with 495 and/or 190 that would be the problem.  You know how
    things are when you have to get the State involved.
    
    Think a name change is in order for the team?  How 'bout the
    Massachusetts Miracles?  Nah, I think that concept flopped already.
    Let's see, there were the Washington Senators, so how 'bout a name in
    honor of one of this state's most famous senators, and call 'em the
    Massachusetts Drunks?
    
    Hmmm.... another unique charm about Mass. is its drivers and their
    ubiquitous universal hand gesture.  The Boston Birds perhaps. Certainly
    their logo on the helmets and souveneers would be recognized world wide
    and would sell in the millions!  It's a gesture more famous than the
    Atlanta Braves Chop already.
    
    Dickstah
     

       Caint change the team logo Dickstah!! Nothing's more fitting than a
    cartoon character.
                                 Denny

Yeah, you can't.

There aren't too many "original" logos left.  I was never a big AFL fan,
but I know that the logo on the Pats helmet is the same from their
days as the Boston Patriots....

    What's wrong with Foxboro?

       The lease sips!
                              Denny

    Back in the days when the Sullivan family owned both the team and the
    stadium, the lease was written such that the bulk of the parking,
    concessions and luxury box income went to the stadium and not the team. 
    The entities were owned by 2 separate companies but it didn't really
    matter since all the money was going to the Sullivan family.  I will
    not speculate on the reasons why this was done.  
    
    Now that the team and stadium are under separate ownership, the lease
    has come back to hurt the team and the team is really being taken to
    the cleaners on the lease.  Concessions, parking and luxury box income
    really make a big difference.  As the lease is written now, it makes
    the most sense for both to be under one ownership.
    
    Besides the lease, there are at least two well-known problems with
    Foxboro Stadium that work to the detriment of the team:
    
    1.  Access - while I go so early and leave so late it doesn't matter to
    me, the stadium is hard to get to and the traffic jams are legendary. 
    This leads to tailgaters getting there early and staying there late,
    which leads to more drinking, which leads to crowd control problems and
    the lack of Monday night games.
    
    2.  Parking - the parking lots look like a remnant from WW2.  They are
    unpaved, poorly lighted and laden with potholes.  This one never used
    to bother me because I parked in the press box parking but we were
    moved to regular employee parking last year, which is just as bad as
    everywhere else.
    
    The other major problem with Foxboro Stadium is the stadium itself. 
    While well-designed, it's basically just stark concrete and not very
    pleasant.  Stadium management has done a lot to make it more attractive
    but it's still the same basic, bare-bones structure.  This, plus the
    lack of a dome (I personally don't feel there should be a dome because
    football is meant to be played outside) has led Kiam to push for a new
    facility - first on his own and now with the NFL's help.
    
    Mike, that's what's wrong with Foxboro.
    
    John 

From what I can recall from our "Breakfast with Sam", the NFL would not actually
have any financial interest in a new stadium, but would secure the loan(s)
used to build it.

Sam went on to say that any new stadium in the New England area would 
require outside financial backing from either the State, or private
industry.  He used the words "New England area" on several occasions, which
would indicate to me, if a new stadium is built, it may possibly be outside
of Massachusetts.

Chap

When I went to the game with Chap, Denny, Walt, Mike, Hawk and Slasher,
we didn't have any problems in the parking lot.  (Except that Lufay showed
up with a Volvo, Chardonnay, a blonde, and wearing Dockers).

The crowd did stay late, and did drink a lot, but anyone that gave us
problems, we promptly beat the tar out of and then handed them over
to the proper authorities (Police, or Waste Management, depending on
how badly we beat them....)


*Seriously* I can see the problems.  Parking is ludicrous, and the 
Route 1 bottleneck is legendary....even in Hell.....


'Saw

 � ... the NFL would not actually have any financial interest in a new
 � stadium, but would secure the loan(s) used to build it.
 
 Repeat after me ... North Carolina National Bank (NCNB)
 
 When expansion comes up nexted year, I will *DEMAND* full enthusiasm
 and support for a Charlotte team from all Patriots fans.
 
 You're welcome.
 
 Bob Hunt

< Note 34.247 by FSOA::JHENDRY "John Hendry, DTN 297-2623" >
.

.

.
    
�    Mike, that's what's wrong with Foxboro.
    
�    John 



Very well said, John


Chap

    Foxboro was probably the least expensive modern stadium ever built,
    costing something like $3 million in 1971. Today, that wouldn't buy the
    construction workers' samwidges, but it might get you a lefty almost as
    good as Flanagan...
    
    I don't think there's much they can do about the "concrete slab" motif,
    except perhaps constuct walls on the outside of the stadium. I went to
    a game several years ago where it was cold and raining, and even under
    the stands there is nothing to protect fans from the elements. One
    novel idea that I saw on a soccer stadium in Germany is having a giant
    canvas tarp/awning over the whole stadium when it pours. There was a
    tower at each end with a cable running across. A tarp was stretched
    from the top (this stadium had a roof covering some of the stands)
    across the stadium like a giant tent. Of course, this still keeps the 
    game in the "He-Man Mud & Grass" mode, since it couldn't be as aniseptic 
    as one a them thar girly-mon domes, but it would keep things reasonably
    confortable for the fans.
    
    I agree that they ought to re-pave the parking lots. What's the big
    deal, it can't cost THAT much, can it?
    
    Tom

    I was slightly off before.  1 company owns the team.  1 company owns
    the stadium.  A third company owns the race track and the parking lots. 
    That company refuses to do anything to improve the parking lots.
    
    John

Eddie Anvilhead is a member of the group that owns the parking lots/track.

One other problem with Foxboro is that towards the end of the season,
the cold/wind can make it brutal there.  The stadium is too wide open.

Mike

       Eddie was the loudest voice screaming about the condidtion of the
    parking lots. That is, until he bought them. Now they're worse!
                                         Denny

Hawk,

I was there in late Oct/early Nov in 84 for BC-Syracuse.  I was in the 
southwest corner.  The sun set behind the top of the stadium by halftime.
The wind picked up.  It felt like I was sitting on a block of ice.

Why is the home side of the stadium in the shade anyway?  So the players
can be in the sun, I guess.

Mike

    Most teams have their bench in their home park on the side of the
    stadium with the press box, and that is usually on the west side of the
    field since most football fields run north-south.  At Foxboro, the home
    bench is on the side of the field away from the press box, since the
    home locker room is on that side of the field and it avoids the teams
    having to pass through each other going to/from the locker room.
    
    John

       The press box side is in the shade during late Fall afternoons.
    You guys are pansies. Nothing better than a Pats-Colts game on a 10
    degree Dec. afternoon!
       One of the worst ones I was there for was BC-'Bama. It rained,
    snowed, sleeted, and the lights went out.
                                Denny

       John, didn't one of the coaches decide to move the bench to the East
    side so they'd be on TV? I coulda sworn I remember that.
                                    Denny
    

    Not Erhardt.  The benches were moved during the Ron Meyer regime.
    
    John

       That's right! It was Meyer, didn't he comment that they'd be on the
    'TV side'?
                                    Denny

    Saw in the paper today that Dallas traded disgruntled linebacker Jesse
    Soloman to the Pat's for an undisclosed 1992 draft choice.  Hope the
    Patriots have more luck with him than Dallas.
    
    Wildcat

    It's rumored that Solomon will now be dealt to Tampa Bay for a pick.

    The story I've heard is that Jesse could not be traded to an NFC team
    by the Cowboys.  Therefore, the Pats pass him along, and move up into
    the 3rd round (rumor has it that's what Tampa will give them) from the
    fourth.
    
    Mike

    
    	The real story in Dallas.
    
      Don't piss Jimmy off or you'll get traded to the Patriots.
    
    
    Cadzilla

    I wonder if all of these recent Dallas deals have a Miami connection...

       Absolutely! Kind of like the Dallas-Reeves connection before the
    shakeup in Big D.
                                 Denny

    The Herald had a story this morning stating that the Pats really
    screwed up in this Solomon trade.  Dallas told them that the Bucs would
    trade a 3rd round pick for Jesse, so the Pats gave up a 4th, to turn
    around and get the Bucs' 3rd!!  Now, someone in Bucs management was
    quoted as saying...'if they gave up a 3rd to get him, then they're the
    dumbest S.O.B.'s in the league'....and continued that they had told
    Dallas that they would give up a 5th in exchange for him!!!  So now,
    New England has a LB that they have no interest in or need for, and
    would have to settle for moving DOWN in the draft to free themselves of
    him!!!
    
    
    Nelly

    ...the quote from Tampa Bay should begin....'if they gave up a 4th....'

       Today's Glob has him going to Tampa for a 5th. It says the Pats gave
    up a 6th to get him. John, cain you straighten this all out?
                                     Denny

    I don't know anymore than what I read in the papers on this one.
    
    John

    Heard that the Patsies waived or released Bryan "Kick 'Em in the Back"
    Wagner, their punter heretofore.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Yes.  It happened 2 days ago.  Looked like we were going to re-sign
    Shawn McCarthy, who was let go in the final cut after the Giants game.
    
    John

    We had a rather interesting crew of NFL bigwigs in the press box
    yesterday:
    
    Commissioner Paul Tagliabue and Vice President of Communications Joe
    Browne, there for the Commissioner's press conference.
    
    Director of Information Pete Abitante, who was the Replay Communicator.
    
    Supervisor of Officials Jerry Seeman, there as the observer and sitting
    in front of us.
    
    Assistant Supervisor Jack Reader, who was observing from the replay
    booth.
    
    John

       Did any of the big shots see the Houston coach pass that envelope to
    the side judge after he didn't call pass interference on the Oilers in
    the 4th quarter. The play was right in front of the Houston bench.
                                    Denny

    I don't see how it could have been called an attempted pass or if it
    was an attempted pass, how it wasn't beyond the line of scrimmage, but
    I don't get paid to officiate.  This particular officiating crew was a
    big improvement over the one we had for the Browns because they were
    consistent, clear and in control of what they doing on the field.  The
    call in question was probably the toughest play we had all day.
    
    John

    Well, it was an interesting afternoon - trying to keep track of the
    Pats via the 10-minute ticker.  I was in a bar at O'Hare, watching the
    Saints demolish the Vikings (that was one ugly game folks).  Then the
    ticker came up showing the Pats ahead and drawing an audible, if quiet,
    cheer from this correspondant.  That started enough conversation to
    make me miss a couple of updates until the final score showed up. 
    Fortunately, none of them were from Houston :-).  I think I'm glad I 
    didn't realize how close it got :-).  As someone else there said "at
    least now they've doubled their number of wins from last year".
    
    Made me very glad I have the resources of this notes conference to draw
    on.  Thanks to y'all, I've got a fairly good grasp of what's going on
    around the country in football (and a bunch of other sports).  Helped
    make for interesting conversation in a number of unexpected venues over
    the weekend.
    
    A&W

    More rumblings in the great "where will the Pats play" rumor mill. 
    Tagliabue met with Boston Mayor Ray Flynn last week.  Flynn wants to
    get the NFL to help build a domed stadium in Boston.
    
    Another tough call for the replay booth was the "was it a pass or
    wasn't it" on Warren Moon's "fumble" forced by Tippett in the first
    half.  Moon's arm was going forward, but it looked like it was just a
    pump fake the way he was bringing his left hand up towards the ball.

    	For all you sad sacks who watched the Red Sox blow a game to
    the pathetic Yankees (you knew it *had* to happen, didn't you?),
    you could've been a Foxboro having the time of your life.  Better
    get those Miami tickets before they're gone.
    
    				/Don

    RE Dome in Boston:
    I managed to miss the details other than Flynn & Tagliabue meeting and
    deciding that it would be good to have a dome in Boston. Could someone 
    please fill us in on the details? 
    
    These questions initially came to mind:
    
    1) What's the cost and who will pay for it?
    2) Where in Boston is there enough land/highway access/parking?
    3) Will a dome *REALLY* make the difference in whether the team stays or
    moves to Jacksonville/Memphis/Baltimore/Oakland or any other city dying
    for an NFL team? 
    
    Possible answers:
    
    1) a - Too much; b - They might *SAY* it will be privately built, but
    who are they trying to kid?  Given the current budget situation with
    the public sector, it better not cost taxpayers anything. 
    2) I'll have to look at a map, but I don't think there is such a place
    inside Boston itself. If you're taliking suburbs.....
    3) No. The dome will make a lot of people rich, like Kiam and other
    owners as well as anyone else connected who doesn't actually pay the 
    construction costs. For Tagliabue to imply that this is the only way 
    for the team to stay in the area is basically playiong into Kiam's 
    hands - Build me a new stadium or else!
    
    Why is it that old stadiums lasted 50 years or more while people talk
    about replacing newer ones before they reach their 30th birthdays? What
    is this, the 21st year the Pats have been in Foxboro?
    
    Tom

    
    There are a couple of places in/close to Boston proper where you could
    concievably put a domed stadium.
    
    1) Suffolk Downs property - I can see Buddy Lerouix drooling already. 
    the drawbacks are accessability and the end of any chance to forge a
    comeback for horse racing in Massachusetts. 
    
    2) Parcel 18 - For those who aren't familiar with Boston this is an
    infamous area zoned with special tax considerations to encourage 
    development. Only DEC and Wang took advantage of this and the area
    is close to major highways. 
    
    3)Chelsea - This would solve the state bailout of the bankrupt city by
    providing tax revenue from the stadium/convention center. The only
    problem is there won't be anybody left living in Chelsea.
    
    

    re -1
    
    I don't think you could put a domed stadium in Chelsea - isn't it only
    something like 2.3 square miles with a 100,000+ folks crammed into it?  
    
    Unless of course, you simply flattened Chelsea and built a dome...hmmm,
    wait a second =- that's not too bad! ;-)
    
    Just about anywhere near Boston they try to put it, access will be
    horrendous (traffic will strangle the area...more than it does now).
    
    Flynn and others were saying Boston could schedule 100+ sporting and
    cultural events (hmm, what's this...wrestling, rock concerts???, dog
    shows???)
    
    Never happen...
    
    JD

    Has Flynn acknowledged the fact that most modern baseball fans now 
    abhor the idea of the game being played indoors (it's bad enough
    with football, but even more so for baseball)?  Earlier his rough 
    proposals included plans for a multi-sport complex, including baseball,
    with enticements to lure the Red Sox into his evil plot.  Has Ray-Ray
    conceded that the sports complex notion is fast becoming a dinosaur 
    across the country?
    
    glenn
    

 I thought it was a Mass state law that forced all sports venues to be
 placed in the absolute worst location possible.
 
 Right nexted to the Sumner and Callahan Tunnels.  That oughta do it. 
 
 Oh, and make sure the construction crews block everything off on
 Friday afternoons.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Yeah, the "Parcel 18" area leapt to mind, since it is relatively barren
    wasteland, reasonably near highways like the Pike and SE Expressway.
    BUUT, there's the ol' "Bad Neighborhood" factor to contend with. A lot
    of older inner-city parks like the Tigers have that image problem,
    whether it's true or exagerated. I can't realistically see them doing
    this, no way. First of all, there's the obvious trend AWAY from those
    multi-purpose stadia, as someone pointed out. Second, the Red Sox are
    married to Fenway Park. Sure, they could use more seats, but the aura
    of the team has more to do with the park than anything else. (You MIGHT
    see the Sox in a Old/New park like New Comisky or Camden Yards in the
    future, but not in a Metrodome). For a facility like this to work, they 
    would have to get the Celtics and/or Bruins to play there as well. What
    about this "New Gahden" that is allegedly gong to be built?
    
    Naw, we Bostonians know all about Flynn, how he never met a media
    opportunity he didn't like. This, IMO, is nothing more than a
    grandstanding ploy by Flynn to make it look like he's out there with
    big plans for Boston to be a "World-Class City," one of his favorite
    phrases. Granted, it's a tough job, but there are way more important
    things for a mayor to be concerned with.
    
    Tom

    	Why don't they build this domed stadium in Leominister instead
    of putting in another mall?  That way I could tailgate in my backyard
    before the games.
    
    				/Don

    
    
    A Domed stadium is a great Idea for Boston, but at the most it is
    nothing but a pipedream.
    
    It can't be supported with a footbal team alone, not even a top team.
    
    Ray Flynn will be gone soon, and the city will be better off.
    
    They have talked about moving the stadium to Suffolk Downs but, it can
    be reached only by the Blue line and 1A in revere, Thats 10 lbs of shit
    in a 2 lb bag. Major league problems.
    
      Chelsea will be part of the Atlantic soon and we will all be able to
    breathe easier. (Besides where would it go)
    
    
    Parcel 18 HHmmm.. where is that exactly ?
    
     I agree that the stadium Should be moved back, but I have'nt the
     slightest idea as to where ?  This is and will be a major pissing
    contest for a few years to come. Heck they have'nt built the new garden
    yet!  Where's that cash going to come from ? If a new stadium  is to be
    built it will be for the Bruins/Celtics, not for the Pats.
    
    Boston has always been basically a Hockey,Baseball,Basketball town
    before Football. 
    
    To bad because I would go to a football game located in Boston, but I
    will never go back to Foxboro.
    
    
    I 

    
    Count me among those who actually enjoy going into Boston for a game,
    even though it's a major hike from where I live.  I like having the
    option of doing stuff after the game, especially if it's a weekend
    afternoon game.  Traffic and parking aren't bad on the weekend, either, 
    at least once you become familiar with the city streets.
    
    I could put up with some of the hassles of having the stadium within
    the city limits, especially when the alternative is Foxboro...
    
    glenn
    

       I think putting it in Boston is a GREAT idea. I cain see it now.
    Billy Bulger will give up his senate seat to run it!
                                                Denny

>                      -< Domed stadiums are for wusses. >-

Yeah, but no one wants regular ones anymore.  With a dome you can
have the Super Bowl.  With a dome you can have all sorts of stuff
in the winter...

I like regular stadiums and regular turf, but the domes make more $$$$$


jmho,
'Saw

So 'Saw are you saying? No! It caint be! Say it aint so Sawmiester! 8^)
I knew that Rugby image was a ruse! 


Why would anyone want to travel to Boston in the dead of winter for
the Super Bowl? I would rather go to Florida or No'Lens or Pasadena
where it's warm. Football was made to be played outside, the elements
are part of the game. 

homjo


Steve

>So 'Saw are you saying? No! It caint be! Say it aint so Sawmiester! 8^)
>I knew that Rugby image was a ruse! 

What are you talking about?  I'd rather play in the mud and the rain
than heat and dust.  God loves the Infantry and Ruggers.


>Why would anyone want to travel to Boston in the dead of winter for
>the Super Bowl? I would rather go to Florida or No'Lens or Pasadena
>where it's warm. Football was made to be played outside, the elements
>are part of the game. 

I agree, but the fact is that if they're gonna build in Boston it'll
be a dome, and they'll charge outrageous tix fees and they'll make
a ton of money.

Too true 'Saw. It's bad enough that it cost a small fortune to take
the family to the Garden or to Foxboro. I can just imagine how much 
a ticket would cost to see an event at the new BILLION dollar dome
complex. You'd probably have to take out a loan to bring the wife and
kids!!



Steve

    A dome would really kill the Centrum.  The monster truck rallies would 
    flock to the dome, where they could really pack the patrons in.
    
    The Centrum would be empty, except for a few Cetlics pre-season games
    and holiday on ice.
    
    Jd

    What's the difference between removing the weather factor by playing
    the game in Pasedena or playing the game in a dome?
    
    If Boston does come up with a domed stadium, Flynn wants the NFL to
    hold 2 SuperBowls there within the first 5 years.  The end result would
    be alot of money being pumped into the local economy.
    
    Are the guys complaining about the cost taking the wife & kids to a SB
    game in a new dome in Boston taking them to games in New Orleans now?

    
    
    Parcel 18  = Roxbury.
    
    Why a dome? Easy. Domed stadiums can be used as convention centers
    and that's the only way you'll break even in Boston. Even the new 
    Boston Garden will be too small for large conventions. You'll never
    get the Celtics out of the garden anyway and the NFL doesn't want
    baseball in the stadium because it effectively hurts the design.
    
    To make money they would need to book 100 dates a year. You only
    get 10 out of pro football. You might get another 6 or so from a
    local college football team and, if you're lucky enough to land 
    the Celtics or a college basketball team you'll still only fill
    about half the dates. You'll need 50-60 "events" that are going to
    either draw lots of out-of-towners (IE conventions) or are big name
    acts that  will draw the locals. I didn't here the seating numbers but
    one would assume it won't be less than Foxboro's 60K and probably more
    like 100K. The 100 dates probably assume 75% of capacity so you might
    even need more dates to make up for poor attendance. 
    
     

Pasadena- Everyone knows it never rains in California! 8^)

    Tourism is the #2 industry in Massachusetts.  The thinking behind a
    domed stadium is that you provide another avenue to funnel tourists
    into the state.  Access to the site is going to be the number one issue
    in siting it *if* the decision is made to go forward.  The NFL has a
    minimum number of seats required to host the Super Bowl, and I'd hope
    we'd be intelligent enough to build somewhat bigger than that minimum,
    to allow for later standards changes.  That will be a second siting
    factor, as you'll need enough acreage for parking as well as the
    structure.  Really kind of need to have the new airport location and a
    new stadium location decided in tandem, so you've got easy access to
    the stadium from the airport.
    
    I'm *very* certain that I want to see this done with private money, not
    state funds.  We have a state-run convention center (the Hynes) and it
    is very poorly managed.  The stadium will need better usage than the
    Hynes gets if it is to succeed.
    
    (What's gonna happen to the stadium in Foxboro if a new one is built? 
    How does one recycle a stadium?)
    
    A&W

    A&W hits a lot of thangs right on the haid.
    
    A Dome would open up Boston to bid on events such as the NCAA FInal
    Four, the Republican or Democratic national conventions, etc..
    
    The Kingdome is used for large shows such as hunting/fishing shows,
    home shows, etc...
    
    My guess is they'd have to entice more than just the Pats to play 
    there.
    
    They could also try to get a College Bowl game (A lesser, before New
    Year's Day type Game) to be played there.  BC could use the dome to 
    play 'big' opponents such as Notre Dame or Miami.
    
    Boston could compete for Olympic trials and National Champeenship
    events (Such as gymnastics...etc...)
    
    Now, if they put a retractable Dome on it, they could entice the 
    red sox to move.
    
    Yeah, the fans would be outraged.  But, the Sox would increase average
    attendance - plus work out deals for luxury boxes, etc.
    
    Of course, if they could build a real world-class Dome - that could
    be used for football and baseball, plus retractable roof and set up
    like the SkyDome in Toronto - the Sox could draw 4 million - and the
    'purists' would baa-baa-baa through the turnstyles.  
    
    It could work - but Mass. will never be able to pull it off.  If they
    started tomorrow, it wouldn't be done for 20 years.  THe politicians
    would fight about every last detail.  The public would fight it.  
    
    JD

    Mac had a great line last night:
    
    "By the time a domed stadium gets built, I'll be up in Maine, fishing."
    
    That's my attitude towards the whole thing.  Building such a facility
    is the right thing to do.  It's a great investment in putting people to
    work building it, attracting more business for the tourism industry and
    putting people to work afterwards.  But, governments are having enough
    trouble keeping afloat now, let alone making any sort of a long-term
    investment in anything.  This sort of structure has been talked about
    since the mid-sixties if not before and we all see what we have now. 
    I'm not holding my breath over it.
    
    If this was to be built and if there was enough business to keep it
    going (I agree, it's just not for the Patriots) then Foxboro Stadium
    would sit abandoned and empty unless it was to be torn down.  The
    people who own it would be in competition with the dome for events.
    
    As far as the Red Sox go, I wouldn't be surprised if they've mortgaged
    Fenway Park and are quietly buying up enough land someplace to build a
    ballpark of their own.  There is going to come a day when it will no
    longer be feasible to put more money into maintaining Fenway Park and
    the Sox will have to be ready with a new home.  I don't know how much
    of the attraction of the Red Sox now is due to the quality of the team
    and how much is due to the nature of Fenway Park.
    
    John

    
    >>ballpark of their own.  There is going to come a day when it will no
    >>longer be feasible to put more money into maintaining Fenway Park and
    >>the Sox will have to be ready with a new home.  I don't know how much
    
    I just hope that when they do, they'll build a place with character,
    and real grass.  Not one of the multi-purpose dung-heaps like 3-Rivers,
    or the Vet, or Riverfront, or Busch Stadiums which have about as much
    true "Character" as an empty can of dog food.
    
    
    JaKe
    

       I agree Jake. That's one reason I don't like domes. Look what
    they've done in Chicago and Baltimore. That's what they oughta do here.
    Private financing of course.
                                        Denny

    	Bulger would be a good choice Denny, but I think a tandem of
    Keverian and Crane could make the stadium commission one of the most
    efficient and profitable ever!
    
    				/Don

    Flutie passed for 582 yards to surpass Warren Moon's CFL record for
    most yards passing in a season..... Why can't the Patsy get player like
    that..???????
    
    REK

    re. .306
    
    Yea but the Bum lost......
    
    
    That's because he is too short.....
    
    
    Lou

    Heard on a talkshow last night that Philly would be a possible place
    for Flutie, since Cunningham is out and their offense was designed for 
    a scrambler-type.
     
    The chances of his leaving the CFL aren't too goo right now.  He's the
    main drawing card of the league, according to an article I read.
    
    Anyone read the story in SI on the owner of the BC team?  Interesting
    character, especially in regards to his relationship with his
    "housekeeper"/"maid".
    
    Lee

In an unprecedented move, the NFL took control of the Patriots today.

They have given Victor "Am I really such a dork" Kaim 38 days to come
up with a $38 million payment to Fran Murray(?) who owns 49% of the
club.

Of ol' Vic can't come up with the moola, Murray becomes managing general
partner....

Just fyi,
'Saw

       Maurray will sell the team to local people who must promise not to
    move it. I hope Paul Fireman (Reebok) gives it another shot.
                                 Denny

Couldn't have happened to a better guy than Victor "How dry" Kiam. 
This guy is a stiff nd I hope and pray that he cannot come up wif
the cash and the Pats get a real owner. Did I mention that he was
a stiff? I feel bad for the players and coaches who are put through 
yet another finacial fiasco. This team will not be competitive again 
until they have a solid ownership.



Steve

STeve, tell us how you REALLY feel ;^)

'Saw

For the most part, I agree with Steve.  My only concern is that the team seems
to be headed in the right direction, and I would hate to see it sidetracked by
a major change at the top.  If new ownership came in, they would decide if they
wanted Jankovic, McPherson, etc.

Fireman may not be interested this time around, considering the stadium 
situation, and the attendance.

=Bob=

I'd be willing to bet that the Stadium could be upgraded.  I mean, it
might cost some money, but even if they put in seats instead of those
cheesy-ass bleachers, they'd have improved it 50%.

I know that there are parking problems, and that there are traffic problems,
but those could somehow be overcome, perhaps.


The team itself appears to be on a slight upswing.  I mean, I don't
perceive them to be as hapless as they were last year.

If they could get rid of Vic "I'm SUCH an ASS" Kiam, then they'd really
be doing something.....

'Saw

I doubt that Kiam will lose the team.  I'm sure he's just playing games with
the $38,000,000 to get extra interest on it.  That's close to 6 figures worth
of interest.

j.

    I'm not an architect, nor do I play one on TV but I've been 
    
    giving the issue of a new/refurbed stadium some thought and I wondered
    
    if simply putting some "I" beams along the outside walls, extending
    
    above them and then putting some roof trusses for some sort of covering
    
    over the field would be maginally acceptable to those who want a
    
    domed stadium.  Are there some minor (read cheap) modifications
    
    that could be made to make the place more attractive to the non-
    
    game goers (like me)?
    
    Have at it stadium designers....
    
    Kev_who_LOVES_"The Fountainhead"_and_Frank_Lloyd_Wright_!
    

    	If Kiam goes will Jankovich go?  And if Jankovich goes will
    MacPherson go?  I heard on channel 7 last night that if Victor had
    declared backruptcy the players salaries were not guaranteed beyond
    that week's pay and that's why the NFL took this action.
    
    				/Don

       The NFL doesn't want a team in bankruptcy. If that were to happen
    the league's books would probably see the light of day. No way they want
    that!
       
    Re:Kiam hording interest.
       Vic had to make Murray's interest payment for him this week. Well
    into 6 figures.
                                     Denny

 Maybe not Jeff, perhaps the interest rates are different. Besides if he
 claims he can't come up with the money how can he come up with the interest?

 As I see it at the 11th hour VIc comes up with $37,999,999.00 which Fran 
 accepts. Good ole boys promise Fran St Louis rights that he cherish for 
 being such a sport. Vic jumps ships to new stadium, new deal and recoups
 the 37 million...

 I mean when I think how many times his ugly puss used to be on TV selling
 those razors, he must have saved the 38 million in advertising alone...

 mike

    The NFL probably also wanted to prevent a fire sale of Patriot players.

    Speaking of "fire sale", I heard this AM that Paul Fireman is *VERY*
    interested in buying the Pats, if Murray takes control.
    
    Murray has been quoted as saying he will sell the team to local owners
    who will keep it in the area.  He supposedly will sell within 120 days. 
    And, he is now actively looking for buyers.
    
    Stay tuned for the never-ending saga of the Patriot owners.  The names
    may change, but the problem remains.  From Sullivan to Kiam, with
    *LOTS* of names in between.
    
    Lee

       I don't think Fireman wants the team unless the stadium is included. 
    Eddie Anvilhaid had a good point lasted night. He thinks Kiam will find
    someone to pay off Murray for him. If he does he'll also sell the 'new
    guy' 2% of his 51% share. This will make the latest sucker the majority
    owner and Vic stays around as minority owner. I caint think of any
    other reason why Kiam would fork over that interest payment. He's got
    to have SOMETHING up his very long sleeve.
                                       Denny

    Doug Flutie *CANNOT* play in the National Football League this season
    for two reasons:  1.  He's under contract to the CFL and 2.  There is
    an agreement between the 2 leagues that a player will *NOT* play for an
    NFL team upon the conclusion of the CFL season.  The NFL will not waive
    this rule to help any one team and in particular the Eagles, given all
    the friends Buddy Ryan won over the last few years.  What goes around,
    comes around.
    
    I did have an interesting conversation with a NFL scout at the URI at
    UMass game on Saturday and asked him point-blank - can Doug Flutie play
    in the NFL.  His reply was interesting.  For him to play most
    effectively in the NFL, offenses have to begin thinking the way
    defenses do, ie, in a way similar to the "nickel" defensive back, they
    have to use situational quarterbacks as well.  Flutie is most effective
    if brought in once a team is inside the opponent's 20 yard line, ie,
    the "red zone."  Use another QB to drive the team down the field and
    then bring in Flutie to take you the rest of the way.  He felt Flutie's
    quickness, running ability and improvisational ability would make him
    extremely effective and help compensate for the fact that the offense
    has a shorter field to work once in the red zone.
    
    John

    Oh boy, if Fireman did buy the Pats, then it would become America's
    YUPPIE team.  I mean, Reeboks are the yuppiest shoe there is (and one
    of the worst made, FWIW).
    
    I can see it now.  Reebok's everywhere.  Free wheels of Brie on Fan
    Appreciation day...
    
    HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA(TM)
    
    JD

    The NFL's issistance on 1 and only 1 QB is something that I've been
    questioning for a while now.
    
    If you look at the defense, between the normal set, goal line set,
    prevent set, and all 28 teams, about the only position that someone
    doesn't situation substitute are the starting CBs.  Usually there is a
    core group of players who play every down, but the actually positions
    vary depending on the quality of the players and the defensive scheme.
    
    On offense, the norm is to situation substitute the backs and
    recievers.  Only the O-line and the QB are constant.
    
    For the QB, ability to avoid the pass rush and the threat to run the
    ball definitely has different levels of importance depending on the
    situation.  Why not have specialists?
    
    Philly used Cunningham only on 3 and long situations at the beginning
    of his carreer.  While this scheme didn't have and earth-shattering
    effect, neither was the offense the worst in the league.  So it can
    work to some degree.
    
    I can see a couple of immediate benifits:
    
    - A rapid way of getting a young or backup QB experience without the
      high risk of devoting entire games (starting) to training the new QB.
    
    - Each QB takes less physical abuse for the game as a whole.
    
    - Gives the coaching staff a prolonged, real-life method of comparing
      several players.
    
    The major drawback is that it is difficult for the QB to remain the
    team leader.  But what rule specifies the QB must be the leader?  I
    sure the veterans have lot of input in the leadership role.
    
    Commander Scott

>    The major drawback is that it is difficult for the QB to remain the
>    team leader.  But what rule specifies the QB must be the leader?  I
>    sure the veterans have lot of input in the leadership role.
    
I never played line in organized football, but I can offer a parallel
from my rugby experiences, especially if one assumes the scrum and
scrumhalf relationship in rubby is the predecessor of the QB and O-line.

A set of fowards tends to get used to one particular scrum half - the
rhythm of his voice, the way he puts the ball into the tunnel.  Change
it during a game (except out of necessity) and timing suffers.  

Put the microscope on the scrumhalf-hooker interaction, and it parallels
the QB-center relationship as well...  New type of put-in, tougher hook.
New QB, snaps become an uncertainty instead of a given.

It's the same thing with a line and a QB.  That rhythm that gets
set is crucial to the time, and perhaps with the exception of pass routes,
time is never more crucial on a football field than between the QB
and the line, and the execution of their assignments.

Years ago, the Dallas Cowboys experimented with sending in their plays
by alternating QBs... the results were disastrous...

I think that's the reason why....

    While Biff 'n Buffy were up in Minnysoda sitting in
    
    45% humidity watching the Twins win a few baseball games, 
    
    the girly-mon Vikings visited Sullivan/Schaeffer stadium and 
    
    just didn't have enough to take home a win.  From what I remember
    
    of the radio broadcast, the Pats had a 23-13 lead with about 3 minutes
    
    to go.  The 'kings pulled off 2 onside kicks (1st one called back for
    
    only going 9 yards) and wound up tying the score.  The Pats had a
    
    chance to win with ~:45 seconds to go but Jason missed the f/g.
    
    OVERTIME!!!!
    
    Pats took the kick at their 20 and marched up field to their ~25
    
    when they fumbled and the Vikings took over.  Vikings had to punt and
    
    the Pats, once again, marched downfiled and this time Jason nailed
    
    the game winning f/g with no time left on the clock!  Pats are now
    
    3-4!
    
    Congrats!!!!!
    
    Kev
    

    
    > I did have an interesting conversation with a NFL scout at the URI at
    > UMass game on Saturday and asked him point-blank - can Doug Flutie play
    > in the NFL.  His reply was interesting.  For him to play most
    > effectively in the NFL, offenses have to begin thinking the way
    > defenses do, ie, in a way similar to the "nickel" defensive back, they
    > have to use situational quarterbacks as well.  Flutie is most effective
    
    I agree with this, and I have a feeling that Doug Flutie may just yet
    get the last laugh on the conservative ol' NFL when they come around to
    opening things up a bit.  You look around the league and see all these
    stiffs at QB and the sputtering offenses they're in charge of and 
    there's still not one team that could use a player like Flutie in
    situations, as a football "relief pitcher"?  I have a hard time
    believing that.  These guys have gotten to the point where they're 
    employing players who were backups and total unknowns in college and 
    haven't taken many snaps anywhere, anytime, much less under any kind of
    real NFL conditions...
    
    glenn
     

    One nit in .331 -- the Pats' first drive in OT ended not with a
    fumble, but with a missed FG from 36 yards out.
    
    Glad Jason got a chance to redeem himself.  The Pats still have a ways
    to go to be a true contender, but they're not a laughingstock any more.
    
    
    py

 as long as Vic's there, there will always be something to laugh about...

 mike

 Gotta love MacPherson ... Freshest and most exciting thing to hit New
 England since the British taxed tea.
 
 Vikings are major gaggers ... The "ghosts" of Joe Kapp, Alan Page, Mick
 Tinglehoff, Carl Eller, Chuck Foreman, Bill Brown, Jim Marshall and all
 the other great *OUTDOOR* Vikings must be in terminal agony.
 
 Bob Hunt

I think that Joe Morgan was standing in for the Vikings coach yesterday.

I had to leave the house for a short time during OT, and of course
missed it, but the Pats are actually EXCITING this season.....

'Saw

                                          
> I had to leave the house for a short time during OT, and of course
> missed it, but the Pats are actually EXCITING this season.....
    
    More exciting than they needed to be.  I aimed the antenna to
    God-knows-where and watched the end of this game (Channel 3), and while
    the Vikings may be gaggers, the Pats sure did their share too.  But it's
    only the final score that counts...
    
    glenn
    

    That was a very, VERY gutsy performance by NE DB Pool.  He slapped
    down a game-winning pass against AC, and in the OT picked up the
    fumble.  Gutsy.
    
    Too bad the Vikes don't have a coach like MacPherson.  His teams
    are motivated and committed.  He's got them playing up to their
    abilities.  He's also developing some talent, this Millen kid was
    impressive with his accuracy. 
    
    Meanwhile, the Vikes are unmotivated and uncommitted.  Their coach 
    shrugs his shoulders and walks away, always more concerned with being
    a players coach, whatever that is, than discovering that you cain be 
    liked and be demanding too, and that there's no unwritten law that sez
    you have to play veterans who've lost a step, that young people cain
    perform just as well.
    
    I was glad to see NE and their gutsy DB win it.  Kudos to Dick!
    
    MrT

I did see that play, late in regulation.  Nice heads-up play by the DB.
In fact, I'd rank it right up with the Millen last second pass in the
Houston game, for best NE plays this year....

'Saw

    
     Damn....  I hate to see the Patsies playing good ball now....
    Us Donk Fans were counting on the basic cake walk we usually
    have when we play them....  Guess we might have to start the
    1st string this week.
    
    ;^)
    
    Big Game

    Oop's !! 
    
    			Donks 27
    
    			Pats  17

    Talked with the Ninj on the phone today (he's in class this week and
    won't be able to log in).  From him.......
    
    Since the start of regular season OT, this is only the 4th time that
    there has been a winner in a game where the full 15 minute OT was
    played.  13 full OT games have ended in ties.
    
    A&W

    Cake walk, Big Game???  I'm sure if Ninj were here this week he'd
    set you straight again.  The past several meetings between the two
    teams have all been in Denver.  The last couple were decided late in
    the game (like that one where the dependable Mosi Tatupu fumbled the
    ball while trying to run out the clock - Denver picked up the ball and
    ran it in with no time left).

    Like I said....  A Cake Walk !!!   ;^)
    
    Bring on the Ninj....  I ain't scared !!!!   I wish he were 
    here too..... He's really easy to get cranked up !!!  I wouldn't
    even have to get out my trusty "Hoot Gibson Book Of Outragous
    Comments" guide to pull that off...  Oh well,  Guess I'll have to
    work on you Big Mac.....
    
    Big Game

    Ha ha ha, love that "Hoot Gibson Book Of Outragous Comments", Big Game!
    
    Hoot was always entertaining, wasn't he?  It really didn't matter
    wether you agreed with him or not, his total defense of his beloved
    Raiders was only equalled by his never-ending attacks on the Donks and
    Pats.  'Course, you could also always count on the Parrot to add his
    agreements, too.
    
    Anything less than outrageous was out of character for 'ole Hootsie.
    
    lEe

    Well, I was able to log in today.  The last time we beat Denver was the
    last time they played here, in 1980.  Since then, Denver has beaten us
    as follows:
    
    1984	26-19
    1986	27-20
    playoff	22-17
    1987	31-20
    1988	21-10
    
    There hasn't been a game in recent history that has been won at the
    last minute although the 1984 or 1986 game was rwon when Dennis Smith
    recovered a Mosi Tatupu fumble and returned it for a late TD.  The
    series stands Denver 15, Patriots 12 with Denver outscoring us 614-594.
    
    Mr Hunter, the only thing that's easy to get me riled up on is cheap
    shots against the Patriots.  I also get upset at ranting and raving
    when the raver doesn't know what s/he is talking about.  Otherwise, I'm
    fairly mellow.  I'm so used to watching games in my official capacity
    that I find it very difficult to be a truly rowdy fan.
    
    I will make one and only one prediction about the game - we've got a
    better stats crew than Denver does.  Nyah, nyah.
    
    John

       I think the 1980 win over the Donks was a Monday nighter. It had
    onea those 'free kick' field goals (a miss) if my memory's right.
                                       Denny

    	Hey Glenn cardiac doesn't imply comeback it implies that folks
    with weak hearts shouldn't watch, which definitely applies to the
    Pats.  8^)  This team is long on heart but still short on talent,
    however after sitting through numerous "who cares" second halves
    last year this team is fun.  
    
    				/Don

    Hey Slasher,  what thoughts were going through your mind when
    
    the Patriots had the 23-13 lead?  Didja think it was inevitable
    
    that they'd find a way to (almost/definitly) blow it and lose?
    
    I agree that this year they're fun - at least listening to it
    
    on WBZ radio.
    
    Kev
    

    If you're in the Worcester area and want to see the game on TV, go to
    Casey's on Park Ave.  They have a sattelite dish, a big screen TV and 2
    or 3 regular size TVs.  A pitcher of Miller is $4.25, hot dogs and peel
    your own shrimp (Big ones) are 25� each.  With the game on CBS last
    weekend, this was about the only place to see it on TV locally.

       I couldn't believe all the Vikes fans leaving after they screwed up
    the 1st onside kick. I said to them: "you folks don't come here often
    do you? This game aint over yet." Little did I know.
                                         Denny

    
    Well then,  Cardiac should be the name of this weeks game between
    the Patsies and the Donks !!!  It seem both team have a knack for
    keeping it interesting down to the wire.  I always have to bandage
    my finger nails after Donk's games....   With the Patsies and Donks 
    in the same game it may be really exciting.....  
    
    Ninj......  I was hoping you would see that little note.....   I put
    it in there just for you.   
    
    
    Big Game

    >I said to them: "you folks don't come here often do you?  This 
    >game aint over yet." Little did I know.
    
    Indeed.  Any self-respecting Vikings fan (and there aren't many a
    them) knows that the 'Queens right now are the biggest pack of vastly
    overpaid gutless wonders in captivity.  Add to that the disasterous
    Hoo-Show Walker trade (probably the worst trade in team sports history)
    and then you have trouble understanding why they even bothered showing
    up in Sullivan Stadium in the first damned place...
    
    MrT

    
    The Minnesota Vikings... just another team with an empty bandwagon
    waiting for MrT to hop on...
    
    glenn
    

    which way is the wind blowing today ??????
    
    I bet T's on the Minni Bandwagon as soon as they break .500,
    Maybe 2010 or so !!!   ;^)
    
    Big GamE

I'd love to see the Viking turn it totaly around and go to the Bowl this year.
Imagine the stuff that T would enter in here then....

Metz

    re.357
    
    Yeah, I agree Metz, it'd be something like this
    
    "<insert AFC team here> doesn't deserve to be in the Super Bowl, in
    fack, they don't even deserve to be in the NFL at all, they and <insert
    city of AFC team> are a cyst on the anus of the NFL"
    
    JaKe
    

    Maybe this is why he and Jo* were such good main friends!

    If you don't feel like going to Worcester, I know a bar in Marlboro
    that has the Pats home games.  If you want to know which one send
    me mail.  
    
    Jimbo

       There are plenty of bars around with dishes. Most of them have
    signs outside that advertise the games. Partners Pub in Fitchburg is
    one for sure. So is the VFW in Westminster. Christophers in
    Leominster (?) and possibly Slatterys. 
                                  Denny

    	Before I got season tickets I used to go to the Grafitti because
    he had a_extended UHF antenna and could get the western Mass stations.
    They also had some smoking waitresses there.  8^o  Shame on you
    guyz for pickin' on MorT.  He's sick and needs our help.
    
    				/Don

I was SO disappointed yesterday.  The Pats were so close.

And hey, in case anyone hasn't figured it out yet, this is a very
exciting team.  (Slasher, you must be disappointed about the cheerleaders
cold weather uniforms....)


But a rookie mistake by a guy trying to make something happen, cost
them the game (sigh).....

Oh well,
'Saw_who_had_a_sh*tty_sports_weekend....

    
>    But a rookie mistake by a guy trying to make something happen, cost
>    them the game (sigh).....
     
    'Cept Millen's not a rookie, and that mistake was more on the
    grade-school level...
    
    But lest anyone think that Millen takes sole possession of the goats'
    horns, I must admit that I didn't understand what Coach MacPherson
    hoped to accomplish in that situation, especially since he had been
    ultra, ultra conservative earlier in the quarter by kicking a field 
    goal on fourth down inside the one (a play that I think you have to 
    go for if you deserve to win, and which even if you don't make it
    you still control field position).  Sure, I guess someone could break 
    free for a miraculous touchdown, but in a situation where the defense
    can cherry-pick because the Pats' options were very limited, I was
    waiting for something bad to happen.  Unfortunately, I expected
    a sack or interception, not what transpired...
    
    glenn
    

    As I understand it, on the last play of the game, Millen was told to
    throw the ball away if no one was open.  He was scrambling a little and
    then explained he wasn't sure if he'd crossed the line of scrimmage or
    not.  Once he'd crossed, he had no choice.
    
    Still, I'd rather see us lose the games the way we've been losing them
    this year rather than so passively the way we were last year.  Losing
    is never pleasant but this is a better and far more exciting team.
    
    John

    
>        As I understand it, on the last play of the game, Millen was told to
>    throw the ball away if no one was open.  He was scrambling a little and
>    then explained he wasn't sure if he'd crossed the line of scrimmage or
>    not.  Once he'd crossed, he had no choice.
 
    I was wondering about this.  If Millen had had the presence of mind
    to realize his mistake and just thrown the ball away after crossing
    the line, wouldn't it be a ten-yard penalty, loss of down, but the
    clock stops?   Or is there a special rule that prevents a team from
    trying a running play in this situation and then just tossing the
    ball into the stands if it doesn't work?
    
    glenn
    

    John,
    
    Even if he had crossed the line of scrimmage, it just would have been a
    penalty (loss of down and ball at the spot of the infraction, I think).
    That would have stopped the clock for them to attemp the FG, wouldn't
    it?
    
    Dennis
    

    The clock would have stopped and the team would have been penalized 10,
    they would have still been in easy FG range.  If he was thinking about
    the clock, he should have tossed it.
    
    Even if he were unsure of the ruling, a run tackle was a loss.
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

    However, if the officials rule that he took the penalty intentionally
    to stop the clock, they can take time off the clock for that.  I don't
    think he even considered taking a penalty, intentional or otherwise.
    
    John

    I don't blame MacPherson for trying the play - it was Millen who
    screwed it up.  It should've been pretty cut-and-dried: if a receiver
    is open, get it to him; if nothing's there or if the rush even starts
    to come throw it into the tenth row.  But I would imagine many people
    are upset at Mac for even trying a play in which Denver knows they have
    to go to the end zone.  Plus there's always a chance of a fumble or
    bonehead play, as was the case.
    
    I agree that Mac should've gone for the TD on 4th and goal inside the 1
    yard line.  I thought it kind of uncharacteristic of him not to go for
    it in that situation.  
    
    
    Joe

      Congrats on a good game,  and the OL and DL for Pats need the credit. 
    They controlled the game IMO.
    
    	Tim

     The Pats finally had a chance to do it to a team that's been doing
    it to us for years and we let it slip away. Oh well, there's good news 
    and bad news. The good news is that this is an exciting team and we get 
    another shot at Denver. The bad news is that the  chances are Denver's 
    not going to the Superbowl anyway, so we won't get to see them redefine 
    the word "roadkill" yet again.
    

NE has some strong talent this year, I hope the ownership problems don't 
flow downhill. MacPherson is a joy to watch kind of like a friendly Mike Ditka. 

It sounds like the Pats gave the Donks a good game.  I was sorry to see them
lose it at the end.  It would have been great to see the Donks get beat.

David

    Pats need to loosen up their offense too.  They were moving the ball
    very well in the 4th quarter.  Before time became a factor, they were
    way too conservative.
    
    That referee crew was one of the most incompetent crews I've ever seen
    on TV.  Between fooling with the clock, missing calls, and making bad
    calls for either team, they didn't have a clue.
    
    Mike

    Good Game Pats......  I was suprised it turned out to be as
    close as it was.  But then again it was a Donks game and they 
    always seem to play down to their opponents level.  I was
    going to keep this nice but the few Jabs in here about the 
    Donks are making it tough......  AHHHHH   lets see...  I guees 
    The patsies aren't quite going to become the Saint's of the 
    `90's.....  But they're right behind the Dolts !!!  Seriously,
    The Pats play a good game and could have won the game except 
    for a silly mistake by an excited kid...  They will get better,
    it's tough to get much worse !!     ;^)
    
    Big Game

    Ninja, maybe I missed it, so I'll ask.  What is your opinion of the
    officiating crew in this game?
    
    I was listening to Gino and Gil Santos, and they were making remarks
    about how the crew seemed so un-coordinated and out of sync.  Nothing
    about bad calls against one team, but that they were continually
    stopping play so that they could meet and talk.
    
    Any inside scoop?
    
    lEe

    I was surprised at what was going on with the men in the striped
    shirts.  They made my day rather difficult since we pretty much have to
    follow along with them and take our direction from them.  The problems
    came from late flags and flags we didn't see.  They didn't seem to be
    well-organized and they didn't look good out there.  At least they
    didn't mis-spot the ball too much - only once or twice.  It wasn't
    quite as bad as the Browns game but it was close.  And I was surprised
    because working a game with Dale Hamer as the referee is usually pretty
    good - he's very clear on his calls, easy to understand over the mike
    and in command of what's happening on the field.
    
    I have to be careful of what I say so let me just say this - I can't
    worry about bad calls but I do mind a sloppily officiated game and
    that's what it was.
    
    I don't mind them stopping play to have discussions but my biggest
    complaint is with the replay rule in general - I don't mind the replay
    but I wish they'd signal a play under review right away instead of
    waiting until the next play is ready to be run.
    
    John

The Coaches show mentioned the condition of the field as sooo bad that most
people wouldn't let there cattle graze on the grass. Seems the Pats watered 
the field very heavy to slow down the Bronco's speed team. 

Highlight was the pee wee league before the NFL game. 

Jeff

        re .377     

        Actually Big Game, thanks to the Donks I made $1500 in a 'squares'
       pool the year San Francisco beat them 55-10 (maybe you remember it).
       Any way I was bumming because I had 5-0 in the pool but the Donks 
       came through for me and did their patented 'Superbowl speed bump' 
       routine. [insert smiley face here]
    

    
     Although the Donks faird poorly in their Superbowl's,  I wouldn't
    say that the Patsies fair a whole lot better against the Bears...
    It's one of those things,  no one was going to beat the Niner's on
    that day and for that matter the Bears when the Patsies got
    steamrooled(tm) by them.  I get this feeling you're trying to crank 
    me up......  It won't work unless you talk about Super Sam Winder,
    then I'll really FLAME !!   ;^)
    
    Big Game

    
      No, I'm not really trying to tweak you Big Game. Just a little
     bummed that we had a chance to remove that Denver thorn from our 
     sides and we let it slip away. And yeah our on one trip to the
     Superbowl we didn't exactly cover ourselves in glory either.
    

    
     Well,  Heres to the Donks and the Pats winning their nexted(tm)
    Superbowl's   
    
     (God I know I begging for it here but hey, I can take it)
    
    Big Game

    Jeff,
    I'm not so sure if the Pats watered down the field that much. This is
    the first year of the natural stuff and it will take awhile before it
    settles. Next year the sod should be ok and the surface should be able
    to take the wear and tear a lot better. The field is not in that good
    shape but it's because of the newness, not any extra watering, IMO.
    Sheesh, the Donks complained enough during the game ( was at the game
    behind their bench 30 or 40 rows up), now they're still complainin?
    Take the victory and skedaddle and shaddap.
    
    MikeL
    

    
    >    Sod takes several years for it's roots to firmly implant themselves into
    >the soil below it, so it's not going to be that much better next
    >season.
    
    Hawk, did you get a patent on the "Hawkmaster Chia Head" yet?
    
    Dickstah
    

    I still say that the Foxburo fatheads watered down the field to slow 
    down the super speedy Donks high power awsomely productive offense.
    
    ;^)
    
    Big GAME

      They didn't seem to have this much complaining about Chicago's grass
    when it was installed 3 years(?) ago.
    
      A win is a win.  Cacti,  did you check out the jousting at the
    Renasance festival this year?   One teams motto was cheat to win;^^)

    	I believe the Pats should be applauded that they put in a natural
    playing surface. O.K., the turf hasn't grown tight yet, but in time...

I agree 100%.

I was mentioning that to Ninj in Malden on Saturday.  (He agreed with
me that you'll never see rugby played on plastic or under a dome 8^))

Now, if they could just replace those bleachers with some real seats,
they might have the makings of a decent stadium there.....


'Saw

�I was mentioning that to Ninj in Malden on Saturday.  (He agreed with
�me that you'll never see rugby played on plastic or under a dome 8^))
    
    You need to change that statement to "you'll never see rugby played on
    plastic or under a dome AGAIN".  A few years ago, the Texas Rugby Union
    put on some exhibition 7s matches inside the Astrodome prior to a
    preseason Oilers game.

>    You need to change that statement to "you'll never see rugby played on
>    plastic or under a dome AGAIN".  A few years ago, the Texas Rugby Union
>    put on some exhibition 7s matches inside the Astrodome prior to a
>    preseason Oilers game.


AHHHHHH!!!!  SACRILEGE!

Get thee to confession!


8^)

Well, I suppose, Mac, if it was a_exhibition, you know, spreading
the gospel to people, I suppose you couldn't have been too particular
about the setting.

I mean, missionaries had to take their church to the jungle and all....

I understand.....

    	Under the category of "physician heal thyself", did you notice
    the two moderators having this rugby discussion in the Patriots
    note?  8^)  I'll have to agree with John that despite its shortcomings
    this Pats team is worth geting excited over.  The last two games
    in Foxboro were more entertaining than all eight home games last year.
    Leave it to Big Game to whine about the field conditions as an excuse
    for a close game.  Jo* gave me the lowdown on you Game...
    
    				/Don

    Jack, if you keep up this whining crap, you're gonna be know as little
    Game!  
    
    lEe  :*)

    Ok, Ok......  But I didn't start the Whining about the dame SOD 
    in New England.  
    
    
    Big Game

    Is this a common practice in the NFL.  I read in one of the other
    notes file (or another note) that San Fransisco Had left the sprinklers
    on over night before the game against detroit in an attempt to slow
    down Sanders..... This seems real cheap if its true.  There should be
    some rule against this kind of strategy.  
    
    Whats next buy Wind Machines for games Against Houston/SF or any other
    air attack offenses.
    
    								Mike

>    Is this a common practice in the NFL.  I read in one of the other
>    notes file (or another note) that San Fransisco Had left the sprinklers
>    on over night before the game against detroit in an attempt to slow
>    down Sanders..... This seems real cheap if its true.  There should be
>    some rule against this kind of strategy.  


Ever hear of home field advantage?  It's all part and parcel of that.

It's much more prevalent in baseball, where groundskeepers who work
in stadiums with natural turf groom the infield to take advantage of
a team's pitching style and such.

It happens in rugby somewhat (cf Providence v Hartford @ Providence) but
i won't go into that here...


'Saw

    I started the bad turf, not as an excuse (because I don't really care
    who won or lost) but because it was so awful. I was going to compare
    the Pats/Broncos game to the CU/Missouri turf issue from last year, but
    I didn't see the need to start that again.  ;*)
    
    AS far as the 9ers watering the turf the entire night before, that's
    not home field advantage, that's dangerous. WHat if someone slipped and
    got hurt because the a$$holes in SF want to stop Sanders. I don't mind
    the doctoring of the grass in basball, but if the home team does
    _anything_ to the playing surface that could make it more dangerous to
    play on, they should be fined very heavily or have other sanctions
    taken against them.
    
    Dennis
    

    not to mention that the jerks who try that seem not to realize
    that the field is slippery for EVERYBODY, including the home team.
    
    Kev
    

�    not to mention that the jerks who try that seem not to realize
�    that the field is slippery for EVERYBODY, including the home team.
    
    Which would really make me question if they did it purposely in the
    first place.

    The Only Reasoning I can come up with is that they would have the
    advantage in know the condition of the field come game time.  They
    can change the spikes on there shoes to fit the field conditions.
    
    Im not an expert but Im sure they have someone on the teams payroll
    to come up with stupid ideas like this.  They could also maybe just
    wet the center of the field heavily for a team that runs up the middle
    alot like KC... Again Im just going on something enter in another notes
    file and was curious if someone know for sure weather or not this is
    a tactic that teams actually use ??
    							M_Air_Brooks

Again Im just going on something enter in another notes
    file and was curious if someone know for sure weather or not this is
    a tactic that teams actually use ??
    							M_Air_Brooks


Denver, CU and CSU have coated the field with slippery snow for this weekends 
games. 


Should get some complaints. 

Jeff

 Well in the Niners case they have always been more of a passing team so on
 a wet field the receiver has the advantage so it makes sense for them to
 water the field to slow down a great runner...

 so what this means is that all of Jerry Rice's records can be attribute
 to park-effects. right Dan?

 mike

    
     I knew there was a reason that bum got all those records.
    
    Big Game

    	Come on John, 'fess up.  Are our Pats cheatin' or what?

     You Know it !!!!   But it still couldn't stop the high powered
    Donk offense !!!!   
    
    Big Game

    I hope all of you from around the country got a chance to watch the new
    and improved New England Patriots last night, to experience some of the
    frustration we're facing around here.  It's nice to be frustrated as
    opposed to last year, when we knew we were beaten most of the time
    before walking on the field, but I'd rather have a few more wins.
    
    I predict we'll beat the Jets at least once and beat the Colts again. 
    Our other best chance for a win is at Cincinnati at the end of the
    season.  Don't think we'll beat Denver, wouldn't be surprised (though
    I'm not predicting it) if we beat Buffalo in the rematch.
    
    John

    Pats got hosed on that roughing the kicker call at the end.  Not that
    they would have won, but they deserved the chance...
    
    Mac is a good coach, but at times he's a bit too emotional.  On the
    roughing the kicker call, for instance, he was out on the field...a
    flagrant penalty.  He was lucky he didn't hurt the team more...not that
    that would have mattered anyway.
    
    	--dan'l

    The highlight of the game for me without a doubt was seeing Vincent 
    Brown show the rest of the country why he's nicknamed "The Undertaker". 
    
    

    
    	I agree Tommy.  That kid has "STUD MUFFIN" writtten all over
    	him.  I haven't seen a linebacker fill the hole like that
    	since Willie Lanier and Dick Butkus.
    
    	Claybroon

    Oh yeah???
    
    How would YOU like to have been on the receiving end of Willie
    "the Fridge" Perry's imitation swan dive lasted night??????
    
    SPLATTTT!!!!!
    
    ;^)
    
    Kev
    

       Poor Steve McMichael He looked like he was gonna die! 
                                  Denny

    That really was something....  The Fridge is huge and just seems to 
    be getting bigger and bigger....  Wouldn't be surprised to hear that
    he's blown up one of these days...  McMichael really look like he'd
    been hit by a truck, which isn't far off !!
    
    Big Game
    
    P.S.  Whats this doing in the Patsies topic... ??? You know,  I bet 
    on the Pats over the Fish lasted(tm) week..... Once again they let
    me down

    BG,
    a couple o replies back a reference was made about getting
    hammered so in the time-honored tradition of related tangents......
    
    Kev
    

    No Problem.....  Just wondering how it got started in the Patsies
    note....
    
    Big Game

    	Perry's got muffin written all over him, but I don't know about
    the stud part...

    Did Lippett do something to the family of the Head of Referees last
    week or something?  First there was the defensive holding call on him
    (turned out to not be a factor though) when the replay showed he didn't
    come close to laying a finger on the receiver, and then that roughing
    the kicker call.
    
    Gotta give Miami credit.  They were being knocked over their poor run
    defense, but came up big against the Pats running game.

    
    Mighty frustrating loss after making up 21 points in the last quarter.
    
    I can't believe the number of bogus calls that went both ways
    yesterday.  There have been dozens of calls in the NFL this
    year that show one thing on replay, yet the call goes the other way.
    Time to get rid of it if they disregard it anyway.
    
    Dickstah
    

    Here was a case where replay had a chance to make the right call, a
    big on at that, but they don't have the guts to reverse it.  That NE
    receiver definitely fumbled before he was down, but at least it didn't
    end up hurting the Jets as they held on the last play.
    
    Another tought loss for MacPherson.  That makes a couple tough losses
    and a near-miss at Buffalo in the last month.  Needless to say, they're
    a much better team this year with renewed enthusiasm.
    
    
    Joe

    We got inside the Jets 10 twice earlier in the game and fumbled on the
    Jets 29 on our first possession.  The game was not lost at the end of
    the 4th quarter.  The game was lost earlier.  We had our chances but we
    didn't get it done.
    
    John
    
    PS - I thought McMurtry's play was a fumble, too

                       
    They don't overrule fumble calls in the NFL unless they signal a
    change of possession on the field, guys.  If they didn't call a 
    fumble down there, the de facto ruling is "whistle had blown, not 
    reviewable".  They reviewed for ball placement, right?
    
    glenn
    

Terry Bradshaw on "The NFL Today" blasted MacPherson for running Jon Vaughn 
up the gut with 0:01 left.    He insisted that Hugh Millen should have 
rolled out to the far side and tried to make something happen out there.

It's easy to bash the play when it didn't work but what do the Pats' 
faithful think ???  Should Millen have tried to do something ... either a 
short pass out on the roll or just run it in himself ???

Bob Hunt

    	I hate to be in agreement with that yahoo Bradshaw, but I was
    telling Chap the same thing while they were sorting out the tape
    on the McMurtry fumble (it was a fumble, but the incomplete pass
    call earlier in the drive was bogus too).  But Mac decided to go
    with what worked before and it just didn't work this time.  A lot
    of folks are getting on the offense, but in the last two home losses
    the offense brought the team downfield *after* the defense looked
    like swiss cheese when the team needed them the most.  Denver kicked
    a field goal with a few minutes left and the Jets scored in less
    than a minute by driving against a defensive secondary that can't
    stop anybody when they really have to.  If that kid Buckley of FSU
    comes out early this year the Pats should grab him.
    
    				/Don

    They had nothing to lose since they were given that final play.  The
    off-tackle was pretty unimaginative imho.  I agree with Bradshaw.  A
    roll out would have given you more options and would've been harder to
    defend.
    
    I also agree with what Parcells said after the game.  They're still
    losing and these types of losses will take their toll also until they
    get over the hump.
    
    Mike

    I think the refs are deliberatly attempting to sabotage IR. Sorry if I
    offend ya John H., but the lack of guts I saw on a consistant basis
    yesterday on some pretty easy potential reversals leads me to that
    conclusion.
    
    Doc

    No offense taken.  I don't agree with the replay because it slows
    things down too much.  The thing that annoys me the most is with my
    job.  We get the play entered, we're sitting there waiting to enter the
    next play, the offense goes up to the line of scrimmage and *THEN* they
    tell us the play is being reviewed.  Why the hell do they have to take
    so long to even let us know?
    
    It is the responsibility of the replay official to decide whether or
    not a play is going to be reviewed, not the on-the-field officials.  It
    is the replay official who decides whether a play is going to be
    reversed.  
    
    John

    Either the officials are banding together to get the instant replay
    thrown out or they were just giving the Pats a makeup call for 2 blown
    replay rulings earlier in the game (the "incomplete pass" earlier in
    the drive and Cook's "ip" that was actually a catch and a fumble
    recovery).  An earlier non-call for offensive pass interference when
    Moore tackled the Pats defensive back so he wouldn't pick-off
    K-k-k-kenny didn't help either.
    
    Having said that, the Pats should have been able to make the reffing a
    non-factor, but they stalled out on a few drives that should have
    turned up some points.
    
    For the final play I was remembering Steve Grogan's naked bootlegs run
    in that same situation.  As for running Vaughn, it worked before for a
    TD.  The OL didn't get the job done that time.
    
    Millen looked impressive.

There was an OBVIOUS offensive pass interference play on the Jets that
occured directly in front of us, and the Side Judge (# 38), that went
uncalled.  There were a lot of people in the first few rows giving the
SJ a lot of crap.  What pissed me off was after the play, the freakin'
guy was smiling. It was like he knew it was penalty, and it was, but
some unknown reason he wouldn't call it.

As has been stated elsewhere, there were a few other obvious bad/wrong
calls, not the least of which was the McMurty fumble on the next to last play
of the game.

It seems like we have gotten more than our share of poor officiating crews
in Foxboro this year.

Chap

Only when the eliminate the abomination of Instant Replay will the
quality of officiating in the NFL improve.

With other sports, you know that the final word is the ref, be it good
bad or lousy.  Now, with the replay, the final word can be overruled, and
I feel that loss of "authority" has infused the officials with a big
lack of guts.


Put it back the way it was.  It's an affront to the game.  Really POOR
officiating, like the SJ that Chap mentioned, isn't going to be improved
by replay anyway......

    
    I question why you would ever use a little guy like Jon Vaughn down
    by the goal line with one play to get it done, do or die.  Vaughn
    hasn't been used much in other situations because of questions about
    his experience, so why there?  Even if you decide to run instead of 
    roll out, let a big guy like Ivy Joe Hunter pound it in there.
    If he gets hit, he's got a second chance...
    
    glenn
    

      Everyone has had bad officiating this year.  It's in every game now,
    IMO.
    
    	Tim

    re .434
    
    Sorry 'Saw, but IMO, that line of reasoning is a pure and simple
    cop-out. Hell, I'd be glad to have the IR to help me in a tight spot, I
    could still make calls with confidence, probably even more than before
    since IR could remove doubts on the close plays.
    
    Instead we have refs sulking and using IR was a crutch, or making a
    mockery of the system.
    
    To be a ref, you have to have guts to make a tough call and SELL the
    call. If you can't, then use the IR as an aid. All players ask for is
    fairness and consistency. They don't look at IR as a sign of weakness.
    
    They WILL see a lack of conviction as weak. 

     I gotta agree with Tim....  The Zebras really stink this year...
    The Donk game is a perfect example of this....  No way was Elway
    behind the line or even close when throwing the TD to Jackson.
    Should have been no TD...  I was amazed when they let it go !
    The the Pushing off by the KC receiver in the lasted(tm) KC TD.
    It was blatant and didn't get called...  Things are looking pretty 
    bad around the NFL as far as the Zebras go...  IMHO anyhow !!
    
    Big Game

Doc,

I'm not coping out.

I hate IR.  I think the refs stink too, and I think a portion of it
may be IR, but not all of it.

I think they should do away with IR all together, because I don't like
it, and I think it destroys the flow of the game...


'Saw

First off, the officiating in the Pats/Jets game was TERRIBLE. 
I was at the game freezin my kahoonas off waiting for what seemed
like an eternity for a replay decision. What the hail takes so long?
Everyone in the stadium can see the play on the big screen and can make
the call, why can't some dork in the replay booth make the call??
HEY WILL YA MAKE THE STINKIN CALL!!!! MA HOT SEAT HAS FROZE TO MA ASS, AND
I'M WAITING FOR THIS DORK TO MAKE A CALL!! ARRRGGHH!! Gawd it was frustrating.

As far as the last play for the Pats, all I can say is bad call Mac. Should've
spread out the D. The Jests were doing a good job against the run all day.
A sweep to Stephens would've been a better call, or a pitch back, or a qb
sprint/option. Oh well, it was an exciting finish to a loooooong game.



Steve

Very simple Steve.

Replay officials are usually retired referees etc.  Now, if you look
at the refs on the field, they are older than Jesus.

Ergo, one should conclude that the replay official is older than
the Pharohs.  If that is the case, then what takes so long is the guy
to get his hand to stop shakin' so he can hit the rewind button.....

hth,
'Saw

               -< Mattie told Hattie, bought a thing she saw... >-
                                      ^^^^^^

Oops, should be 'bout....

>I think they should do away with IR all together, because I don't like
>it, and I think it destroys the flow of the game...
    
    Commercials destroy the flow of the game also, but see if they ever do
    away with them either.  Even PPV will probubly have commercials. :-(
    
    Seriously though, I personally like IR.  I also think the refs grossly
    mismanage the use of it.  As I have stated before, I am begining to
    think this is intentional.
    
    Scott

    I need commericials when I'm working at a game, to either get caught up
    when things get hectic or when we have a problem to correct.
    
    John

    This Sunday Buffalo comes to Foxboro.  Normally, it would be a
    mail in the score event for the Pats (those tough losses gotta
    have a mental impact) BUT, Buffalo played lasted night, some of 
    their defensive linemen got pretty beat up.  I figure they may have 
    3.5 days to prepare for the Pats and heal.
    
    Do they have a chance? (especially considering the way Kelly played
    last night?)
    
    What about the field conditions?
    
    ???????
    
    Kev
    

    This is meant to be a serious question, so please take it seriously.
    
    Last night on the WBZ Monday Night QB show (where Sam is on from 6-7
    and Mac from 7-8), for the first time I heard Sam express frustration
    over the poor attendance at games so far this year.  He felt the team
    has proven itself to be entertaining, it delivered on what it promised
    early in the season and still the attendance hasn't grown.  He and his
    staff have done a lot to improve things like traffic flow,
    entertainment and crowd control and it's not helping.
    
    My opinion of what the problem is isn't that the team is bad and it's
    not that the facility is all that bad.  The thing that hurts most is
    the reputation of the place - crowd control, traffic and so forth and
    the reputation is going to take a long time to turn around.  Second is
    the location - when you go to a game at Foxboro there's nothing else
    you can do except go to the game - unlike in Boston or in a downtown
    setting where there are lots of things to do within walking distance
    after an event at Boston Garden or Fenway Park (although this doesn't
    seem to hurt attendance at either the Meadowlands or Rich Stadium). 
    Third is the parking lot.
    
    If I was to sit with Sam I would have to tell him that the reputation
    is the biggest problem keeping people away and in order to bring back
    the crowds, it's going to take time to turn that reputation around.
    
    So to those of you who went to games and don't anymore, why not?  If
    you go regularly, what you'd like to see done better?  If you've never
    been and you like football, what keeps you away?
    
    John

    
>    So to those of you who went to games and don't anymore, why not?  If
>    you go regularly, what you'd like to see done better?  If you've never
>    been and you like football, what keeps you away?
     
    The *biggest* gripe I've had is none of the ones you've mentioned.
    I haven't been down to Sullivan since they raised the ticket prices,
    and I was going to 4-6 games a year for a while.  It might not sound 
    like a big deal, but when it used to cost $21 for a decent seat that 
    seemed a reasonable price to get together a group, tailgate, and 
    have a good time.  But, *BAM*, overnight Kiam jacked the price up 
    to $28 at the same time the team stopped winning (and at the same time 
    most New Englanders stopped getting raises if they didn't outright 
    lose their jobs).  I don't have an unlimited sports budget, and when 
    push came to shove my $168, 28-game season ticket at Fenway took 
    precedence. 
     
    I know they've tried to do some discount things this year with endzone
    seats, but when you're only bringing in 30,000 people for a reasonable
    product, it's time to re-check the ol' supply-demand curve...
    
    glenn
    

    
    Unfortunately for the Pats, coming in a close second isn't going
    to put fanny's in the seats. For instance, I'd bet dollars to donuts
    that if the Pats would've beat Denver, you would've seen a marked
    raise in ticket sales. JMHO.
    
    
    Steve

    I think replay has its place, especially for turning around the
    obviously missed calls.  Like the fumble in Luckalo's win last night in
    the 4th quarter.  The Bills' player had obviously hit the ground and a
    reversal was the right decision.  But there's been alot of criticism of
    replays, especially this past weekend.  Before we continue to criticize
    replay officials though, I would like to know if the replay officials
    are indeed seeing the same replays we are seeing.  Are they seeing the
    exact same angles (and only those angles), or are they perhaps seeing
    angles we aren't, or maybe not seeing some of the angles we are.  Also,
    they can take a replay, slow it down, reverse it, and stop it at any
    point, correct?  Until we know for sure exactly what angles and replays
    they're looking at it's unfair for us to be criticizing the replay
    officialas.  But if they are indeed seeing the same replays we are (as 
    myself and probably everyone else has assumed) then the criticism is 
    certainly justified.
    
    
    Joe
    

    
    You also can't criticize the replay official for something like
    McMurtry's fumble, because as was confirmed yesterday on 
    SportsCenter, when a fumble isn't ruled on the field BY LEAGUE
    DECREE the play is considered dead.  And that was a *very* tough 
    call on the field, and one that pre-replay would never have been 
    ruled a fumble considering how close McMurtry was to the ground.
    
    There are so many practical imperfections to replay that in spite
    of its good points it leaves enough bad calls undisturbed that it
    leaves more doubts in the viewers' minds than was there before.
    That may only be a perception problem, but it's the perceivers who've
    got to sit through interminable delays that ultimately pay the
    freight.  Put up with the bad calls, put the damn ball in play and 
    don't worry about it.  Bad calls *do* even out.  Consider it part
    of the game...
    
    glenn
    
                                                            

�< Note 34.446 by FSOA::JHENDRY "John Hendry, DTN 297-2623" >


�    This is meant to be a serious question, so please take it seriously.
    
�    Last night on the WBZ Monday Night QB show (where Sam is on from 6-7
�    and Mac from 7-8), for the first time I heard Sam express frustration
�    over the poor attendance at games so far this year.  He felt the team
�    has proven itself to be entertaining, it delivered on what it promised
�    early in the season and still the attendance hasn't grown.  He and his
�    staff have done a lot to improve things like traffic flow,
�    entertainment and crowd control and it's not helping.
    
     While I agree that this years team is certainly much more entertaining
     than in the previous few years, the fact remains that they simply are
     not winning enough games.  With the Patriots, (as well as many other	
     teams) the attendance is directly proportional to the number of wins.
     You're always going to get your "die hard" fans that will stick by the
     team regardless of their record, what winning more games will get you
     is the "boarder line" fans, that may get caught up in the excitement
     that winning inherently brings.

     I have heard a lot of talk about the improved traffic flow, and 
     frankly I haven't seen it.  Take the Jets game for instance, the
     attendance was almost 38,000, but, probably less than half of that
     number actually stayed until the end of the game.  It still took
     about 30 minutes to get out of the parking lot, and onto 495.

     I agree the entertainment is better this year, the addition of the
     cheerleaders, and selected half-time shows have been a nice change.

     As far as crowd control goes, it is better, but I think it still has
     a way to go.  I can again point to the Jets game, Security was 
     busy all afternoon in the endzone, but in the 1st row of section
     104 (I think) there was a guy drinking a can of Bud, making no 
     attempt to try to hide it. In the FIRST ROW ! right in from of those
     yellow-jacketed security types.

�    My opinion of what the problem is isn't that the team is bad and it's
�    not that the facility is all that bad.  The thing that hurts most is
�    the reputation of the place - crowd control, traffic and so forth and
�    the reputation is going to take a long time to turn around.  Second is
�    the location - when you go to a game at Foxboro there's nothing else
�    you can do except go to the game - unlike in Boston or in a downtown
�    setting where there are lots of things to do within walking distance
�    after an event at Boston Garden or Fenway Park (although this doesn't
�    seem to hurt attendance at either the Meadowlands or Rich Stadium). 
�    Third is the parking lot.

     I admire your loyalty to the Patriots John, but again while the
     team may not be "bad", until it starts winning I don't think you 
     will see a marked increase in attendance.  As far as the facility
     goes, well, I've been to Giants Stadium, and there really is no
     comparison. I know Foxboro Stadium is 20 years old, but even when it
     was new, it wasn't "state of the art".
    

     I agree the reputation of the team, stadium, parking, and fans
     is not good, and will be difficult to turn around, but I'd like
     to see what a couple of winning seasons would do for out reputation.

     I also agree the location of the stadium is not best, but I don't 
     really think that it affects a persons decision to attend a game, or
     spend their money on something else.

     The parking lots are simply a disgrace, which I realize the Patriots  
     have little, or no control over.  Again I can only use Giants Stadium
     as a comparison, and again there is none.  The parking in Giants 
     Stadium is $3.00, yup, 3 BUCKS, that's it.  All parking areas are
     paved, have lights, are lined with individual parking spaces, and
     are clearly marked for identification purposes.

�    If I was to sit with Sam I would have to tell him that the reputation
�    is the biggest problem keeping people away and in order to bring back
�    the crowds, it's going to take time to turn that reputation around.

     As I said earlier, a couple of winning seasons will do a lot to 
     change that reputation.    


�    So to those of you who went to games and don't anymore, why not?  If
�    you go regularly, what you'd like to see done better?  If you've never
�    been and you like football, what keeps you away?
    
   
     /Don and I are in our second season as season ticket holders, and
     we go with Denny Rieu, who has been a season ticket holder for
     17 years, we go because we like football in general, and the Patriots
     in particular, because they are the "home" team.

     If the Patriots organization want to see increased attendance, all 
     they have to do is like that guy in LA says, "Just Win, Baby"

Chap

    Chap, you're making assumptions.  I, for one, have neve returned to
    Foxboro mainly because of the distance..  I believe Hawk stated the
    same.
    
    In any case, it took most of my Sunday to just go to a damn exhibition
    game (preseason now).  Between the drive from Haverhill to the Foxboro
    exit, park, walk, then return by in MUCH more time, it just took too
    long.  That's my first reason.  If you're assuming that someone from a
    more closer locale will take my place, fine.  But John specifically
    asked us noters why we didn't return.
    
    My second reason has to do with the stadium.  That's meant to include
    the rowdiness and the poor attention paid to the rest rooms.  I'd NEVER
    take my wife to such a place.  Matter of fact, I won't go by myself.
    (I would, however, give my ex-wife a ticket)  :*)
    
    And third, at least until the VERY recent past, the ownership and
    management was such that I would not contribute my money to their poor
    efforts.  Now, I might pay to see them if I was going to a circus, but
    they were supposed to be running a team and trying to make it
    competitive within the NFL.  They didn't succeed very often.
    
    Management has changed, and certainly for the better.  Perhaps the
    rowdiness has been controlled.  Maybe the restrooms are cleaner.
    
    But they are STILL in Foxboro, and I ain't gonna take that ride again.
    
    Now, if they were still in Beantown, like the old days at BU's
    Nickerson Field, perhaps I'd have become a season ticket holder when
    the Sullivans finally got out of control of the team.
    
    Incidently, didn't I hear recently that they, the Sullivans, are
    contending to get control again?  Talk about a bad penny!
    
    lEe
    

    Ninj,
    
    I like football and I've never gone.
    
    Here's why:
    
    Ten years ago when I first moved here, I was all excited about being
    able to go to Foxbor and see the Pats since I had MANY fond memories
    of the Jets games at Shea and the Jints at Yankmee stadium.  The 
    weather notwithstanding, there's nothing like being there in person.
    
    Hey, Foxboro?  Just off 495?  Ya mean I don't need to drive into the
    city and play bumper cars with those loonies??? Great!!!!
    
    Couldn't wait.....
    
    Then I was told what it's like there!  8*0
    "Kev, they're a bunch of drunks, foul mouthed to the max, you'll
    probably get the sh*t kicked out of you for no reason, the place is
    filthy and you stand a high probability of being run over.  Football is
    the excuse to (see the above)."
    
    I stayed away because I believed what was said and the media reports
    did little to change my perception.  If you stayed with the show after
    Sam talked about the poor attendence, you should remember the lady who
    called in to speak about her experience (along with her 12 year old son
    and her husband).  She spoke of seeing the fights, hearing EVERY SINGLE
    FILTHY DISGUSTING WORD IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE (actual quote) etc. etc.
    She was a big football fan and said she attended lots of Michigan games
    and as a fan, she didn't appreciate the "no booze section" being stuck
    behind the end zones.  I didn't know they were there.
    
    I don't go for a few reasons.  IMO, since I don't like to go to games
    alone, I figure the cost to be somewhere around $90-$100 for 2 people.
    (big bucks and that makes the impulsive "let's go...." impossible,
    especially when there's the perception that the $$$ spent in other ways
    might be more enjoyable than "suffering through the experience of
    dealing with those a**holes"."  I'd also like the booze free areas to
    be located where the good views are too.
    
    Perceiving the place to be a pig sty, what would it take to give the
    impression of cleanliness?
    
    Sam said their "break even" analysis said 37K people/game was needed.
    If he wanted to fill the stadium, why not drop the price of tickets?
    
    Kev
    
    

�            -< Everybody buy a ticket (so I can wathc it on teevee >-
    
    Kev, if Channel 22 out of Springfield is on your cable system, you
    should still be able to watch the game.  If not, I suggest taking a
    trip into Wormtown and watching the game on the big screen at Casey's
    Pub.

�Take the Jets game for instance, the
�     attendance was almost 38,000, but, probably less than half of that
�     number actually stayed until the end of the game.  
    
    Interesting, the announcers kept remarking about how many folks were
    still in the stands right up until the end.  They were making comments
    like "that wouldn't have happened last year" and "the Pats never give
    up and apparently neither do their fans".
    
�     104 (I think) there was a guy drinking a can of Bud, making no 
�     attempt to try to hide it. In the FIRST ROW ! right in from of those
�     yellow-jacketed security types.
    
    I can see your point about it being in violation of stadium policy to
    bring in your own beer, but was it really a problem if the guy wasn't
    obnoxious?

    Comment on the ticket prices - for comparason:
    
    Tickets for a Green Bay game are $18.  In addition, there are only 4
    home games in Green Bay.  I believe that parking is $2.  So the season
    price for watching the Packers is unbelievably low.  The Packers also
    have a 20 year (28 yr at 1 time) waiting list for season tickets.
    
    This info is all from season ticket holders.
    
    Granted, this is the extreme further end of the scale, but...
    
    Scott

�< Note 34.453 by CSLALL::TIMMONS "HELP SET PROFILE" >


�    Chap, you're making assumptions.  I, for one, have neve returned to
�    Foxboro mainly because of the distance..  I believe Hawk stated the
�    same.

     LeE, if you mean I'm  assuming the attendance will increase with
     more wins, I think that this has already been proven.  During the early
     to mid '80's when the Patriots were winning consistently, the 
     attendance was very good, with many sell-outs, and near sell-outs.
    
�    In any case, it took most of my Sunday to just go to a damn exhibition
�    game (preseason now).  Between the drive from Haverhill to the Foxboro
�    exit, park, walk, then return by in MUCH more time, it just took too
�    long.  That's my first reason.  If you're assuming that someone from a
�    more closer locale will take my place, fine.  But John specifically
�    asked us noters why we didn't return.
    
     All I'm saying is, that it is more likely more wins will mean more
     willing to overlook all of the shortcomings you have mentioned.

�    My second reason has to do with the stadium.  That's meant to include
�    the rowdiness and the poor attention paid to the rest rooms.  I'd NEVER
�    take my wife to such a place.  Matter of fact, I won't go by myself.
�    (I would, however, give my ex-wife a ticket)  :*)
    
     I agree with you here, I would not take my wife and/or my daughters
     to see a game under the current conditions.

�    And third, at least until the VERY recent past, the ownership and
�    management was such that I would not contribute my money to their poor
�    efforts.  Now, I might pay to see them if I was going to a circus, but
�    they were supposed to be running a team and trying to make it
�    competitive within the NFL.  They didn't succeed very often.
    
     I agree here also. When this ownership thing is finally settled, if
     new owners are brought in, and they bring a new coach and GM with
     them, I will seriusly consider giving up my season tickets.  I like
     what Sam and Mac have started, I hope they have the chance to
     continue on.

�    Management has changed, and certainly for the better.  Perhaps the
�    rowdiness has been controlled.  Maybe the restrooms are cleaner.
    
�    But they are STILL in Foxboro, and I ain't gonna take that ride again.
    
     I guess there is not much I can say about our ride to Foxboro, except
     to consider car pooling, or any possible bus trips that may be 
     available. The train, may or may not be another possible option.

    Now, if they were still in Beantown, like the old days at BU's
    Nickerson Field, perhaps I'd have become a season ticket holder when
    the Sullivans finally got out of control of the team.    

�    Incidently, didn't I hear recently that they, the Sullivans, are
�    contending to get control again?  Talk about a bad penny!
    
     If this were to come about, I'd be outta there in a heart beat.

Chap    

< Note 34.456 by CNTROL::MACNEAL "ruck `n' roll" >


�Take the Jets game for instance, the
�     attendance was almost 38,000, but, probably less than half of that
�     number actually stayed until the end of the game.  
    
>    Interesting, the announcers kept remarking about how many folks were
>    still in the stands right up until the end.  They were making comments
>    like "that wouldn't have happened last year" and "the Pats never give
>    up and apparently neither do their fans".
    
     I don't know Mac, but we sit on the press box side of the field,
     and looking across the field you could see 'em heading for the exits
     as early as the 3rd quarter.  I am not sure where the announcers were
     coming from, but I can't understand how they could make statements
     like that, because they just weren't true.  I guess I should stick a
     "IMO" in here.


�     104 (I think) there was a guy drinking a can of Bud, making no 
�     attempt to try to hide it. In the FIRST ROW ! right in from of those
�     yellow-jacketed security types.
    
>    I can see your point about it being in violation of stadium policy to
>    bring in your own beer, but was it really a problem if the guy wasn't
>    obnoxious?

     Actually, I didn't have a problem with it at all.  It's just that we
     are getting all of this lip service about how things are improving,
     and I just don't see it.

Chap

When I started going to Pats games back in 1984 or so end zone seats were $13 
I think. That made it affordable for a once a year outing for our entire work
group to buy a block of seats and go have a good time at the game.

3 years later the practice was discontinued because ticket prices had risen so
much as to no longer make it affordable.

Sure, Foxboro stadium sucks, the weather bites, and the team was atrocious lasted
year but the primary factor for most people is probably price. Eventually the
point is reached where the price of a ticket (combined with the hassles of 
the stadium) outweighs the enjoyment of watching a game.

'Saw can tell you that the Whalers have reached the same point. Ticket prices
have gone up to a point where people don't show up for a game. And the Hartford
Civic Center is a lot nicer place to see a game than Foxboro.

Boston isn't a football town, unless the team is a bonafide winner the fans 
won't be knocking down the door for tickets. 

I'd have a tough time bringing my wife there as well....


Metz

 of course it's the price. 20 plus bucks for hunk of a bleacher that it
 always seems 25 people are trying to squeeze into a 20 people seat
 bleacher.

 as for the fights what can I say except that when we did go we won
 most of em..

 ;^)

 and LA beer. cmon????

 start with real seats with some decent spacing for one....

 traffic never a problem cause we always chowed up after....

 

    I'm going to my first game on Sunday.  I'm going with three guys, all
    of whom I trust to win any fight they might find themselves in, without
    being the instigator.  If there weren't a "family section" (where I got
    our seats), I wouldn't even consider it.
    
    Price is a *huge* factor in whether or not to go to the games.  I've
    currently got 5 tickets on my credit card, and I'm not looking forward
    to hitting up the actual money source when the bill comes in.  (On the
    other hand - he said he wanted to date a rich woman.  Handling this one
    has definitely made me qualify :-) )  The incidental expenses of
    parking and food on top of game price make it a VERY EXPENSIVE event. 
    We'll spend more on this one game than on all of our other dates
    combined.
    
    The reputation of the place for having obnoxious fans has been a huge
    deterrent to me going.
    
    Access isn't a huge issue for me, as I live fairly close by.  Having
    someplace to go to warm up after the game, quick and close by, would be
    helpful.
    
    The only other teams that I know of have a pricing structure that
    includes more than two price points.  $28 (or a few bucks more) may 
    be appropriate for seats in the first section between the 40's.  Less
    as you get farther away from the action, with end zone seats around
    $15.  $15 is the price point for getting kids and teens into the game.
    
    Publicizing how many people got tossed from the game, and what for,
    might help with turning around the reputation of the place.
    
    Plastic rather than aluminum bleachers might help.
    
    A&W

A little late, but here's my $.02 on goign to the Pats games.

I think that a winning team would increase season ticket sales.  I don't think
it makes as big an impact with the occasional attendee, who goes for the sake 
of seeing NFL football.

My main reason for not going (it's been 12 years since I last went) is distance.
When I lived on the South Shore it wasn't a bad drive, but now, living in the 
northern part of Mass., Foxboro is just too far to go to sit in traffic, and be 
gone all day.  Build a statium closer to Boston, and I would be more likely.

The crowd is also a major factor.  As I said, it has been 12 years since last 
I went, but the reputation is still terrible.  It's not even a matter of family,
since I would never take my wife, since $28 is too much to spend on someone who
doesn't give a hoot about football.  I wouldn't want to put up with the drunken 
rowdies looking for fights myself.  Perhaps a little good publicity around the 
"cleaning up" of the area would help.

The only reason I cona think of to go would be to party with Slasher, Chap 
and Denny.   8^)

=Bob=

    Thanks for the input so far.  Regarding location, no one location would
    ever satisfy everybody, unless perhaps it was Boston.
    
    Regarding price, here's a follow-up question.  If tickets for Bruins
    and Celtics games were just as available as Patriots tickets, and given
    the price is roughly the same, which would you choose and why?
    
    Thanks,
    
    John

                                                 
>    Regarding price, here's a follow-up question.  If tickets for Bruins
>    and Celtics games were just as available as Patriots tickets, and given
>    the price is roughly the same, which would you choose and why?
     
    Patriots.  Prefer football to other sports, and more fun with a
    group being outdoors, tailgating, throwing a football around, etc....
    
    glenn
    

The games that I've attended at Sullivan I enjoyed.

It would be better if they had real seats though.

Location is closer for me than the Meadowlands and tickets are
easier to get.

I can't answer your last question about availability/price between
Bruins/Celts/Pats tix, because it's rare that I'd go to the Garden
for a hockey game unless I'm up there for training......

    I'd go for all three (3) choices (assuming I could afford 'em)
    
    ;^)
    Kev
    

Glenn, amazingly, you cannot throw a football around the parking area at
Foxboro anymore. Well you can but you will be told to stop(by police).
I'm not sure if this is just within the confines of the stadium or at all
the lots lining the street. Needless to say we were bumming heavily...
Isn't there an amendment that allows freedom of football?



Steve

    Steve,
    
    	What if you were to bring one of those maleable, soft
    Droods(tm)?  Ya could mold 'em into a similiar shape and have at it!
    If there is a law, ya ain't breaking it and the Droods(tm) absolutely
    LOVE the feeling of having wind rush around their ears!  Give's 'em
    goose bumps.
    
    hth
    
    Kev
    

�    Thanks for the input so far.  Regarding location, no one location would
�    ever satisfy everybody, unless perhaps it was Boston.
    
    Since most of the input is from the northern 495 corridor, I wouldn't
    jump to that conclusion (Boston) too quickly.  Like the Sox, the
    Patriot following is pretty much from all over New England (except for
    those pockets of misfit Giant fans ;^)  ).

    I am absolutely amazed that tickets to a hockey game are as much or
    more than a ticket to a football game.  It seems to me that with the
    shorter playing season and fewer number of homegames that football
    ticket prices should be higher than that for hockey.  I guess we're
    seeing a bit of supply and demand at work as well as the work of a
    brain dead league who can't get a decent TV contract.

     I've been to Sully Stadium once. I did enjoy the game and the traffic,
    well it's not to difficult to cope with. Prices? Well unless they were
    outrageous I would still go. As Sox tickets skyrocket, nobody is ever
    turned away from that. 
    
    Now that I live in Virginia, and yes have jumped the Skins bandwagon, I
    would pay the sully ticket prices to see a game, rain sleet snow or
    whatever. Why? Because getting a ticket to RFK is impossible. They have
    a list a years long for seasons tickets. I enjoy watching a game in
    person. it gives me a great feeling even though it's cold... it still
    feels good. 
    
    Dennis
    

�As Sox tickets skyrocket, 
    
    Since you can still get a decent seat for $7, I'd say Sox ticket prices
    aren't even a sparkler.

�< Note 34.463 by TNPUBS::MCCULLOUGH "Dr. Seuss - RIP" >

�The only reason I cona think of to go would be to party with Slasher, Chap 
�and Denny.   8^)

	What other reason do you need ?

:-)

Chap

�< Note 34.468 by CUBIC7::DIGGINS "Thirst N'Howl Roolz!" >


�I'm not sure if this is just within the confines of the stadium or at all
�the lots lining the street. Needless to say we were bumming heavily...
�Isn't there an amendment that allows freedom of football?


 Steve, we park in the lot that is directly across from the stadium, 
opposite the press box.  There are usually people tossing footballs around,
I have never seen anyone tell them to stop.

HTH,

Chap

�< Note 34.464 by FSOA::JHENDRY "John Hendry, DTN 297-2623" >


�    Regarding price, here's a follow-up question.  If tickets for Bruins
�    and Celtics games were just as available as Patriots tickets, and given
�    the price is roughly the same, which would you choose and why?
    
     John, I would still have to choose the Patriots tickets.  The reason
     being is;
		$28.00 * 10  <  $28.00 * 40

     I simply could not afford season tickets to the Bruins or Celtics.

     If we are talking single game tickets, I would probably choose the
     Bruins, because seeing a hockey game on tv or listening on the radio
     I do not get a real 'feel' for the game. I do not have that problem
     with football.

     That may not be too clear, what I'm trying to say is, I think I miss
     more of the action watching or listening to a hockey game than I do a
     football game.

Chap

	Well I got an idea on how to deal with the rowdy fans, since quite 
a few of you in here think it's a problem.  When a fan gets thrown out of 
the stadium, instead of letting him walk back to his car (very few are 
actually arrested) how about they do this.  Take one of those parking lots 
on Route 1, surround it with barbed wire, and put the misbehavee in there. 
Kind of like a Patriots gulag.  Make them stay there overnight, rain or 
shine so everyone going home after the game can see that justice has been 
served.  Whaddaya think?

				/Don

    
     Slasher.....  Thats pretty heavy man...
    
    Big Game

    re .477, sounds good Slasher.
    
    For repeat offenders, make 'em watch films of every game of the 1981
    and 1990 seasons in their entirety.  :-)
    
    
    py     

    re .479
    
    Not only is he meaner - but he's got a smoother face, nicer legs, and a
    better accent!
    
    JD
    
    :-))))))))

    I see where they're having a day for Steve Grogan.  Nice.
    
    However, it's being touted as a day for "The Patriots most respected
    and admired Player Ever", or words to that effect.  Myself, I can't
    agree, although I did admire Grogan.
    
    See, I got two other guys who, to me, also occupy that level.  Steve
    Nelson, and, of course, John Hannah.
    
    All three of them were guys you could count on for playing at their
    max.  Nelson suffered from numerous shoulder injuries over the years,
    but he was a PLAYER.  Grogan was another who was not afraid to stick
    his helmet into a defender, and he also had mucho injuries.  Hannah,
    well I'm not sure if I can even describe how I feel he played.  But,
    you don't just perform to be considered one of, if not THE, best
    offensive linemen ever to play the game.
    
    Neither Nelson nor Hannah played a "glamor" position.  But, they
    PLAYED!
    
    I'm not trying to demean Grogan, but I personally feel that to single
    him out is a cut at the others.
    
    lEe
    

Hannah was a STUD, 'nuff said.....

    
    "Most Respected and Admired Day" at Foxboro?  That sounds like a
    cricket or curling award or something.  How about a "Meanest, 
    Lowdown, Orneriest SOB in the League Day" for Hannah?  I'd pay money
    to see that...
    
    glenn
       

    The thing I find most ironic about the recent canonization of Steve
    Grogan is that from about 1977-1984, when Tony Eason took over, he was
    about the most reviled and hated Patriot player in history (until poor
    Tony took that honor away from him).  I gave up on listening to talk
    shows in about 1979 since 90% of the callers who called about the
    Patriots blamed Grogs for everything that was wrong with the team.  It
    wasn't until Eason was hurt in 1985 and Grogs led us to the 6 straight
    wins before getting hurt himself that fans realized just what a good
    quarterback we had here.
    
    I was fortunate to have spent my first tenure with the Patriots working
    during the 1975 training camp, when Steve was an unknown rookie coming
    out of Kansas State.  With Jim Plunkett ahead of him, no one gave him a
    chance to do much of anything.  I saw the talent in him early and
    thought it was too bad we got him because he wouldn't really get a
    chance.  Well, Plunkett got hurt and then traded and Grogs took the
    job.  Steve and I spent some time together during that first training
    camp - he and I were relatively close in age (2 years, 2 days apart)
    and for some reason we just sort of hit it off well.  We spent lots of
    time talking about New England, college (he'd just finished, I was
    halfway through) and various other topics.  What made him great to me
    is that he never changed one iota over the years.  That's very rare
    in an athlete of his stature.
    
    John Hannah is probably the best Patriot who ever played.  Nellie was
    really the heart and soul of the defense for the many years he played
    and is arguably the most involved Patriot player in the community -
    both while he played and now.  I don't think any Patriot player has
    ever stirred the emotions of the fans, either good or bad, the way
    Steve Grogan did when he played.  I'm proud to see him getting honored.
    
    John

    	It would be nice to see the Patriots do something for Jim Nance.
    He has recovered nicely from his stroke and he was a huge part of
    the Patriots in the middle to late 60's.
    
    				/Don

    John, I haven't anything against Grogan getting honored.  I liked the
    man, and I admired how he dedicated himself to the team.  
    
    I'm just not in agreement with the title of the honor.
    
    Lee

    I didn't think you had anything against Grogan being honored Lee, I was
    trying to point out how the title of the award could be justified.  By
    the same token, it's an example when anyone tries to anoint the best of
    anything - there's always a good argument for someone or something
    else.
    
    John

    Nelson and Hannah have already had thier days in Foxboro (and Hannah
    also had one in Canton, OH).  Anyone remember what the Patriots called
    those days?

    
    Mac,
    
    	It was probably called "Sunday". :')
    
    	Anyway, wasn't Hannah a CU Buff?
    
    Claybone

 ->       Anyway, wasn't Hannah a CU Buff?

Don't think so ... Alabama Crimson Tide, I do believe ...

Bob Hunt

    
    	Geez <slap to forehaid>, I knew that......

    PATRIOTS BEAT BUFFALO!!!!!!!!!
    
    16 - 13
    
    Didn't I mention the MNE? (Monday Night Effect?)
    
    ;^)
    Kev
    

    
    At last!  A win in a close game, and against a good team, too.  A real
    big boost for the coach, the team, and especially the fans.
    
    But isn't there *somebody* out there that can kick field goals and
    PAT's that's better than the guy they're currently paying???
    
    Here's hoping they can stay focused and get some revenge against them
    damn Donkolos nexted week.
    
    Dickstah
    

    It's the snapping, not the kicking.  We didn't have a good snap on a
    kick all day, it seemed.
    
    John

    	John's right Dickstah.  Can't blame the kicker for those.  Millen
    got hammered quite a few times yesterday and came back for more.
    He may look like a prettyboy but the guy's tough!  Nice to see Fryar
    being a team leader.  In years past after a couple of drops he would've
    hung it up for the day.
    
    				/Don

    The blocking for the kicking teams has been horrendous this year as
    well.  I can't believe the number of blocked kicks and punts the Pats
    have been giving up this year.

    The general consensus from my group:
    
    The kicking game is a real adventure - and it isn't the kicker.
    
    The offensive line needs some serious beefing up - they were getting
    blown away awfully easily.
    
    Kelly threw absolutely nothing real long.  What's the story?  Nagging
    injury?  (It looked like we would have been vulnerable to that, too.)
    
    Defensive line isn't too spiffy either.....
    
    Fryar did a great job on the day.  The interceptions were wonderful. 
    The good guys won!!!  :-)  :-)  :-)
    
    
    All in all, it was a wonderful day, in spite of the dismal weather. 
    The family section worked well.  John - you can pass that on to Sam
    along with the other complaints about why folks aren't coming. 
    Everyone in the section was pleasant, friendly, involved in the game,
    and helpful.  It was a mixed bag of Bills and Pats fans, with
    good-natured ribbing among them, but not a sign of garbage.  I did see
    one fight in the end zone, which was quickly quelled.  Don't know how
    things were elsewhere.
    
    A&W

    re .498
    
    If Fryar had droppe a couple, he would not had SEEN another pass the
    entire game.
    
    This Pats team does a better job of getting the ball to him than any
    other team I've seen. Too often in the past, Fryar would get a couple
    of short passes thrown his way for the entire game. Now they are
    looking for him 7-10 times a game ...

    Doc,
    
    And Fryar is responding in kind.  Every highlight I've seen of him this
    year he seems to be playing like a god.
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

    The turnaround and maturation of Irving Fryar has definitely been one
    of the highlights of the season for me.  The thing that makes it even
    more amazing is that with the loss of Dykes, there really isn't another
    great wide receiver to take the pressure off him.  Having 2 good tight
    ends and knowing how to use them has been a help too.
    
    John

    CONGRATS TO THE Pats !!!!  If only the Donks and Soilers could have
    taken advantage of the Bill's loss.  Oh Well,  this win will be good
    for the Pats...  I just hope not too good.  As loss for the Donks
    Nexted week would just about seal their fate as a wildcard.
    
    Big Game

    >If Fryar had droppe a couple, he would not had SEEN another pass the
    >entire game.
    
He dropped one or more early, I can remember dreading the rest of the game.  
Glad I stuck with it though!!!

Scott

    My one comment on yesterday's loss to the Broncos.  Obtaining at least
    one good pash-rushing defensive lineman needs to be a top offseason
    priority.  You CANNOT give ANY NFL QB, never mind a John Elway, two and
    a half light years to find an open receiver as the Pats did
    yesterday...
    
    
    py  

    
     NE's pass rush was pretty anemic yesterday but the ineffectiveness of
    the offense was much more frustrating for me. I wish they'd use Vaughn
    more.

    
    Pass Rush? What pass rush? You really can't put all the blame
    on the secondary, even though they did not deliver. Elway was
    just picking his spots. Russell needs to use a little stick-em,
    either that or put Stephens back in there, these fumbles are 
    costly. If they would've got the 7 instead of the 3 and then another
    td instead of a fumble, or maybe if I had watched a movie instead.
    Pats need:
    
    a) a hard hitting safety 
    b) a bonafide pass rusher
    c) another solid offensive lineman
    
    
    Steve
    

�    a) a hard hitting safety 
    
    Looks like they have one already by the name of Gordon (I think).  They
    snapped him off the waiver wire last year when Atlanta allegedly tried
    to sneak him through.  He had a monster game against the Bills.

    	Hey Small_Game, let's see what the Donkeys do when they play
    a main's schedule.
    
    				/Don

    We'll almost certainly finish 4th in the East.  It's almost impossible
    for the Colts to catch us and I doubt we can catch the Jets.  Given
    that, it means we'll play the NFC West nexted year (and I hope we get
    to play San Francisco here), home games with the 4th place team in the
    AFC West (likely Seattle) and 3rd place in the AFC Central (Pittsburgh,
    here for the first time since 1979), and road games with the 4th place
    team in the AFC Central (Cincinnati) and the 2nd place team in the AFC
    West (Los Angeles, Denver or Kansas City).
    
    Ninj

     Slasher,
    
     No questiont he Donks have had to say the least a soft schedule 
    this year, I won't argue that.  What I will say is that the Beat 
    Patsies 2X, TWICE....  You know, 2-0 vs the mighty Pats.  The Donks
    will have a tuffer schedule next year and this will be a test to 
    see just how good they really are.  Don't be suprised to see the
    Donks heading East to take on the Bills for the AFC title, and another
    trip to the SB.  
    
    Big Game  ;^)

    	Agreed gAME, the Donks are the best team of all those playing
    the "little boy's schedule".  There's no arguing that.  But either
    Houston or Buffalo (or maybe even the Jests) will put an end to
    the Super Bowl talk when the playoffs start.  And you cain take
    that to the bank (and I will).  8^)
    
    				/Don

    What ever /er...   The Donks have a weak schedule....  I've already
    said as much.  The thing is,  they will be in the Playoffs to lose
    to the Bills, Soilers or Jests....  The Pats on the other hand will
    be at home spending yet another X-Mas with the family.  
    
    
    Big Game
    
    P.s.  Donks in AFC Championship Game !!!

    It is being reported in the Globe today that Victor Kiam intends to
    sell his interests in Remington in order to maintain his ownership of
    the Patriots.
    
    John

    
    Why would Kiam want to take his one bucket of profits and dump it into
    a bucket full of holes?  Doesn't make much business sense to me.
    
    Dickstah
    

I told you all the guy's a STIFF, major.



Steve

       I don't think Remington is a 'bucket of profits' any more. I think
    he's losing money there too.
                                          Denny

    Moreover, pro sports still means some serious money-making. Maybe MLB
    has crested, but you can't say the same for football or hoops ....

       That may be but he's certainly not doin' any 'serious money-making'
    in foxboro. 3x,000 (avg.) butts in seats don't make for profits.
                                        Denny

    
    Denny, sure they ain't making money on a yearly basis, however, I think 
    Kiam is approaching this as an investment, not as a business.
    
    The capital gains on a franchise over 5-10 years could represent bocku
    bucks.   Not sure what they're talking about for expansion franchises,
    however, 250-500 Million bucks ain't unheard of.  Think what the
    Patriots might be worth in 5 years..   maybe a billion?  
    
    How much did the Cowboys sell for a few years ago?  (it was the Cowboys
    that sold, wasn't it).  I thought it was for 10-20X what the original 
    investment was.  It's hard to do that well in any investment, and the 
    small loss each year (relative to the total value of the team), is well
    worth the return.
    
    /Jeff

    
    I have a question on the end of regulation in the Pats-Colts game
    yesterday.  On the Colts' last series, they got the ball with 2:02
    left and the Pats had three timeouts left.  The clock was stopped 
    after first down for the two-minute warning, but how did the Pats 
    come out of the series of downs with two timeouts remaining?
         
    Needless to say I was shocked that Dick MacPherson decided to punt
    the ball on fourth down in Colts' territory with two minutes to
    go in a meaningless game-- but this time the conservative approach 
    worked to perfection (damn close after Dickerson went nine on first
    down though)!
    
    glenn
    

    Time out #1 was at 1:33, right before the Colts punted.
    
    Time out #2 was at 0:51, after Millen ran up the middle for 14.
    
    Time out #3 was at 0:09, after Millen completed a 26 yard pass to
    Timpson putting the ball at the 2, right before the TD pass to Coates.
    
    Earlier in the quarter, after an injury, Millen was up at the line and
    then called time out.  Mac argued (and the officials bought it) that he
    shouldn't have needed to call time out because of the injury - time was
    still out.  The Colts had called 2 timeouts in the first 1:30 of the
    quarter.
    
    John
    
    PS - according to today's Globe, our next Foxboro appearance will be
    the second preseason weekend, August 14, 15 or 16 against San Diego. 
    Yesterday's game locks up 4th place for us so we'll play the NFC West
    next year.  Seattle and (most likely) Pittsburgh will be here, we'll go
    to Cincinnati and either Denver, Kansas City or Los Angeles (Raiders).
    
    

    
     The Pats might just be a contender nexted(tm) year !!  I thinks
    it's important for the whole team, including the coach to never play 
    a game like it's meaningless. The Pats have fire in their eyes and
    if Mac can keep it burning through the off season they could come out 
    hot !!
    
    Big Game

    Glenn, also the Colts got the ball at 2:02 and Dickerson ran for 9. 
    The 2 minute warning was at 1:57.  Dickerson ran for 1 again, the Colts
    snapped the ball at 1:33 (probably a bit too soon) and then ran for 1
    again before the timeout.  I made a mistake in the previous reply, the
    timeout was called at 1:13.  We got the ball back for the tying drive
    at 1:05.
    
    John

    Ninj,
    
    2 questions about the game which the announcers (Gil and ????) on
    'BZ weren't too clear about.
    
    First one was toward the end of regulation (I think) and there was
    something about a NEP fumble, recovered, reviewed, protested,
    re-reviewed, ball awarded to NEP.  They babbled something about the
    ground can't cause a fumble AND fumbles were non-reviewable.  Were
    the officials really as bad as 'BZ alleged?
    
    What was really happening when NE called their first t/o in the 2nd
    half and the ref said "NE has *1* t/o left".  Did you and yer team
    set him straight?
    
    dtw...
    Kev
    

    1.  The fumble play in question happened during OT, our first
    possession, second play.  Russell fumbled, recovered by the Colts. 
    Officials ruled down by contact and the whistle had blown, making it
    non-reviewable, but they were reviewing it anyway until the
    announcement was made.  For some reason, after the announcement was
    made the officials got together and conferred further.  I really don't
    know why, but it made it look like they were reviewing it again.  The
    key point is that we kept the ball.  I couldn't tell from the replay
    whether it was a fumble or not but again, since the whistle had blown
    before the ball came loose, that made it non-reviewable.
    
    2.  Earlier in the 4th quarter, there was a play with an injury. 
    Millen got up to the line and was calling signals and then called time
    out.  We were originally charged with a time out until Mac argued that
    because of the injury, Millen shouldn't have had to call time out.  The
    officials were confused because they remembered calling the time out
    and forgotten their reversal.  In either case, we and the scoreboard
    had it right and they never called up to ask.
    
    John

                                 
    Gotcha, John.  I didn't know about the injury thing earlier, but
    I had thought the Pats had still used timeouts after the Colts' 
    second and third downs on that last drive and the refs had forgotten
    about one.  Obviously the Pats had actually let the clock run after
    second down (also kind of a strange decision...)
    
    glenn
    
    

    Kev, pay attention.  John already answered the question about the time
    out.  ;^)
    
    The refs seemed to be having alot of conferences lately.  It was well
    past 4 pm when regulation ended.

    Glenn's right.  The handling of the clock by the Pats in the last few
    minutes of regulation was a bit screwy.

    I would rather the officials have conferences to make sure they have
    things right than make incorrect calls or have controversial
    non/reversals.
    
    I'm kind of glad we went into OT yesterday.  I always hate to have the
    home season end.  My last live game will be this Sunday (I'm going to
    the game on Sunday and to the Celtics-Knicks game in NYC the night
    before) and now it's 8 months before I work again.  :-(
    
    John

    MtM,
    
    On Monday's I don't have to pay attention 'cause it's my turn to 
    wear the dunce cap (Which I'm dooin....).
    
    ;^)
    
    Denny, Slasher or anybody else who saw the game.
    How'd Stephens look as a linebacker?  Was putting him as a blocker a
    smart move?  Does he have a future in that position?  'BZ doesn't
    really do that great a job but........
    
    I was suprised Millen threw the TD bomb to win, I expected the Pat's
    to drive to the 35yd line and try a f/g.  Comments?
    
    Howcome Stephens carried the tieing TD?
    
    dtw II,
    
    Kev
    

    There were a couple of short yardage plays yesterday where Stephens
    lined up as the fullback, Russell as the tailback (I-formation),
    Stephens got the ball and Millen faked to Russell who'd dive over the
    top.  I think the theory was that the Colts would be keying on Russell
    and ignoring Stephens.
    
    John

�    How'd Stephens look as a linebacker?  
    
    Still got that dunce cap on, eh Kev? ;^)  The experiment was to go to
    an I formation with both Stephens and Russel in the backfield.  It
    didn't work too well and they later went to the single back offense
    with Russel in the backfield.  On the two times the I worked well (as
    John H. mentioned) Millen gave the ball to Stephens (the "blocking
    back") and fake to Russel.  This resulted in a key first down the first
    time and a TD the second time.  The rest of the time, there didn't seem
    to be much room for Stephens to act as a lead blocker and a couple of
    times the Colts D just stuffed Stephens and caused a logjam in the
    hole.
    
�            -< Howcome they don't do no-huddle O all the time???? >-
    
    I don't know.  It may have to do with the fitness of the O-line.  It
    may be alot to ask of those big horses to have to keep going to the
    line of scrimmage without a breather (aka huddle).  It may be that
    McPherson and staff are using this year to try and stick with the
    basics since they are implementing a new offense and working with alot
    of new personnel.

    One of the problems yesterday is that Villa went out with an injury and
    Melander played at least half the game.  That limited our effectiveness
    significantly.  Fryar missed quite a bit of the game and McMurtry was
    hurt late in the game too.
    
    John

    re Kev a few back:
    
    Maybe the Pats went for the TD rather than the FG in overtime because of
    all the problems with long snaps on kicks lately.
    
    
    py

       They went for the TD because Millen saw the Colts were going to
    blitz. HE knew Timpson would be open down the middle. It was the same
    play that got them to the 2 at the end of regulation. 
                                     Denny

	Great win, but the best (and funniest) moment came in the first 
quarter.  John Vaugh dropped the ball and recovered his own fumble.  Lisa 
Coles (Hugh Millen's girlfriend, the Patriots director of the cheerleaders, 
and knockout good looking) walks over to Tom Chappel and asks "who fumbled?".
Well Tom's chin drops to his shoe tops with his tongue not far behind and 
while I *think* he wanted to say something all that I heard was "Uhh, uhh...".
Finally the guy sitting behind us yells that it was Vaugh.  After coming 
somewhat to his senses Chap looks over to me and says "somebody fumbled?".  
HAHAHAHA�  Classic stuff!

				/Don

    Ha Slasher,
    Poor Chap. all I cain envision is Papa McFly in Back to The Future
    at the prom!
    
    MikeL
    

    On a depressing note, last night on 'bz's broadcast
    they had Hugh for a bit and when they asked him what he'd be doing in
    the off season, he replied that one of the things he was
    gonna do was
    
    
    tie the knot and get married to Lisa!
    
    hth,
    yer rovin reporter,
    Kev
    

�< Note 34.538 by AXIS::ROBICHAUD "GE Bowl?" >


Slasher, you're just jealous that Ms. Coles had the good sense to talk with
me instead of you.

And why don't you tell everyone about the early Christmas present you got
from the Massachusetts State Police.


:-)

Chap

    
     AHHHH !!  The Slasher got a little ticket aye...  Hope you weren't
    drinking or it was a big ticket.
    
    Big Game

    Not only is Hugh getting married, but his one-year contract is up so he
    will be better able to support the lovely Lisa.  He'll almost certainly
    go after big bucks now that he's proven himself.
    
    John

    
     Not to be contradictory but what exactly has Hugh proven ?

    	No ticket Big Game, but a commendation from the State Police
    for having the courage to babysit the three rummies in my car for
    a whole day.  Geez, the things I gotta go through sometimes for
    those guys...
    
    				/Don

    Tommy,
    He's proven he's got great taste in women. 8^).She is a knockout!
    
    MikeL
    

    He's also proven that ya can spend the entire first half at yo car
    tailgate party'n and not miss anything.
    
    hth,
    
    Kev
    

       Thanx a lot /Don 'preciate it!!
                                     Denny (a rummy)

>       Thanx a lot /Don 'preciate it!!
>                                     Denny (a rummy)


Hey, I've been (hic) a rummy at /Don's car too.


Denny, were you making aTTremA cake that day????


'Wsa

    Sound like what happens at Donk Games...  We always raise hell !!
    lot of fun as long as you stay outa trouble !!
    
    Big Game

    	Denny's just mad because Princess Cheyenne's gots bigger musckles
    than he do.
    
    				/Don

    Anyone see that Remington commercial with Kiam dressed as Santa?
    When he pulls of the beard, he's a dead ringer for the Grinch!!!

    Sign in the endzone at Silly stadium on Sunday:
    "I liked the team so much, I sold the company"
                                          -Vic

Kwak yer right he does look like Crazy Eddie cuz the man is...

IN-SAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNE! 

Karen, if you look real close you can see a piece of roast beast
stuck on the side of the gri..er..a..Vic's mouth!


Steve

       Watchin' the bundys lasted night eh Digger!!?
                                       Denny ;^)

	I think there were more than 20K fans there Sunday.  I also wonder 
about Sam bemoaning the fact that the Pats drew better last year.  Take away 
the Giants game (at *least* 40K Jint fans) and this year's attendance doesn't 
look so bad.  Victor either wants his GE Dome in Lynn or wants to move to a 
sunnier climate.

				/Don

    We sold about 25600 tickets for Sunday and had slightly over 20000 in
    house.
    
    I was disappointed in the attendance for this year as the season went
    on because I thought we had an extremely exciting team.  I can
    understand the relative lack of attendance though.  I desperately hope
    the attendance picks up in the next couple of years because if it
    doesn't we may not have a team anymore.  I think we've done well enough
    on the field this year to justify more folks showing up (and yes, I do
    intend to share the results of my little survey with Sam after the
    season - but I'm not going to extract from here and show it to him.)
    
    I can definitely understand the relative lack of attendance for the
    Colts since they have traditional been our worst home draw ever since
    their last really good period in the seventies.  The schedule makers
    did us a lot of favors this year but having the Colts here in December
    definitely wasn't one of them.
    
    John

    I think Sam has to realize that he can't expect miracles after 1 year. 
    I don't think he should be bashing the fan base unless he is still
    seeing no improvement next year.  To ask the fans to fill the seats in
    December against a team that has no big name stars and a miserable
    record is alot.  He also can't forget that the Pats are coming of a
    1-15 year preceded by a strike year.

    
    I'd be there every year for the *Baltimore* Colts' games!
    
    Rule #1 as a businessman: you can't blame the customer for your
    own failures.  You can, of course, do something about them, including
    moving on.
    
    I agree with the theory that a sports' team's attendance is heavily
    tied to its performance in the *previous* season.  There's a lot
    of inertia to overcome in getting people to buy season tickets or
    even to plan and commit in advance to going to single games.  I
    wouldn't give up yet.
    
    glenn
    
     

    John another factor is this suckie economy and the fact that tickets
    start at $28. That is a LOT of money for a game.
    
    If they went down to $20-$22, the Pats would easily get 5,000 mor
    people. But to have to kick up nearly $60 to take you and a friend to
    game with a OK team, parking in a rockpile, and playing in a
    (sometimes) wet, windy or cold staidum that has a rep for being a
    masoleum ? 
    
    Nah .....
    
    Doc
    
    p.s. I'd love to attend more games, but I don't have that type of
    money.

    I'm not complaining about what happened this season.  In a sense, what
    happened this season was perfectly justified.  I would have *LIKED* to
    have seen more people there but I understand why there weren't.  I also
    understand that the Colts are year-in and year-out, the toughest ticket
    to sell for us.
    
    All I'm saying now is that I *HOPE* we get better attendance for the
    next few years.  
    
    John
    
    PS - Boston Garden is more of a mausoleum than Foxboro Stadium ever
    thought of being

       Endzone seats are $18 I think. 
                                         Denny

 but the Garden has an "AURA" John that Foxboro never will....

 forget it Doc, even if Vic and Sam wanted to lower the price of tickets
 the good ole boys would drum them out of the corp....

 mike

    
    Quite the barn-burner in Jints Stadium yesterday.  You usually only see
    those 6-3 scores in either blizzards or monsoons.  BTW, the Jets will
    never need cheerleaders as long as B.J. Namath is doing the
    broadcasting.
    
    Dickstah
    

    I was there yesterday and the wind was horrible.  Both teams played it
    conservatively, both teams got their defenses cranked up but we were
    better on offense when it counted.
    
    Giants Stadium is still my favorite place to go to a game, bar none.
    
    John

    
    I gots a question for those that watched the game on the tube: if
    Joe Namath went down on the field dressed up in a green-and-white 
    sweater and skirt with pom-poms, would he be a more effective 
    cheerleader than he is up in the booth?  My money says no...
    
    glenn
     

Not a very exciting game to say the least. What I can't stand about Joe 
Willie is the way he talks! He hangs his l's. He'll say "I really don't
think that was a very good plllay by the Jets.." It really drives me crazy 
lllllistening to the guy! 8^)

Lllleonard Russelllll had a great game. I think you have to give alllot
of credit to the offensive lllline though.


Steve

    JOe Namath is simply an overrated punk living off the fame of a
    prediction - that thanks to Emerson Boozer, Matt Snell, and the Jets
    defense came through.  He was an overrated New York hyped QB, a
    horrible aspiring thespian, and a pukey commentator.
    
    But Dan Schneider sure did love him.
    
    JD

    Boy, I'd love to see one of JoJ's newsletters today.

    
    John Hendry,
    
    /Don and i thought you were sitting with the cheerleaders in the
    
    end zone is that true? We had a great time at frigid  Giants Stadium
    
    Kenny Obrien is a lousy qb, told wardle all second half that at game 
    
    haaa..
    
    dinz
    
    
    

    Well, uh, er, uh, I ended up being the Official Cheerleader Escort for
    the day, since I was the only other team employee in the stands, other
    than Lisa Coles.  It certainly made a cold day that much more pleasant.
    
    Ninj

    
    
    
    re -1
    
    YEa we know....
    
    It was a tough job....but someone had to do it.
    
    Lou

    
     Vincent Brown's name should be near the top of the list of
    players who deserve to go to the Pro Bowl but aren't.

    You are absolutely right, Tom, and he is:
    
       <<< LMOADM::LP$DISK:[NOTES$LIBRARY]NEW_ENGLAND_PATRIOTS.NOTE;1 >>>
                      -< New England Patriots (volume V) >-
================================================================================
Note 45.12         Patriot Pro-Bowl Players - Any speculation?          12 of 14
39527::JHENDRY "John Hendry, DTN 297-2623"            5 lines  19-DEC-1991 09:09
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Marv Cook and Bruce Armstrong are starters.  First alternate (go if
    starter gets hurt) is Irving Fryar.  Second alternates are Vincent
    Brown, Leonard Russell and Andre Tippett.
    
    John

    The Undertaker - from Mississippi Valley State !!!!!!

    Home:  AFC East, Cleveland, Seattle, San Francisco, New Orleans
    Road:  AFC East, Cincinnati, Kansas City, Rams, Atlanta
    
    John

    The Pats played at Cincy this year.  Why do they travel there again
    next year?

       I think it's the way the schedule makers do it Mac. If you have a
    certain record, you play against teams from the other divisions at
    predetermined sites. For instance, the last time we played the NFC 
    West ('89) the Saints played here and we played in Atlanta, the same
    thing happens again nexted year.
                                  Denny

    It's no grand conspiracy.  The 4th place team in the AFC East has home
    games with the 3rd place team in the AFC Central and the 4th place team
    in the AFC West, and road games with the 2nd place team in the AFC West
    and 4th place team in the AFC Central.  This formula is drawn up before
    the season and before anyone knows who the teams will be.
    
    This formula has led to the following anomalies with the Patriots:
    
    1.  The long string of games at Denver without a home game against
    Denver (we played them here in 1980, and played 5 there).
    
    2.  The last time we played Pittsburgh here was 1979.  Since then,
    we've played at Pittsburgh 7 times).
    
    3.  We'd played Cincinnati 4 times here (84-86 and 88) and now will
    have played there 3 straight years.
    
    4.  3 games here vs Cleveland since the last time we went there.
    
    5.  Last time we played at KC in the regular season was 1970.  We've
    only played them 4 times since then, all here.
    
    6.  Last time we played at San Diego in the regular season was 1977. 
    We played them here in 1978 and 1979, then 1983, and not since (though
    we are playing them here in preseason next season).
    
    7.  Last time we played at Seattle in the regular season was 1985. 
    Next year will mark the 5th time we've played them here since then.
    
    I'm sure you can find similar anomalies with all the other teams in the
    league.
    
    John   

Category	1991		1991		1990		1990
		Patriots	Foes		Patriots	Foes

First Downs	259		312		239		307
Rushing		93		94		65		151
Passing		155		199		156		139
Penalty		11		19		18		17

3rd downs	72/213		95/228		86/227		84/192
4th downs	6/13		4/14		2/12		7/13

Net Yards	4473		5431		4163		5697
per game	279.6		339.4		260.2		356.1
Plays		977		1050		955		972
per play	4.6		5.2		4.4		5.9

Rushing		1467		1579		1398		2676
per game	91.7		98.7		87.4		167.3
rushes		433		460		383		565
per play	3.4		3.4		3.7		4.7

Net Passing	3006		3852		2765		3021
Ave/game	187.9		240.8		172.8		188.8
sacks/lost	63/436		25/183		58/443		33/224
Gross yards	3442		4035		3208		3245
att/comp	481/284		565/335		514/274		374/218
% comp		59.0		59.3		53.3		58.3
had int		22		12		20		14
ave/att		7.16		7.14		6.24		8.68
ave/comp	12.1		12.4		11.7		14.9

Punts		82		69		92		56
Yards		3198		2909		3752		2282
Gross ave	39.0		42.2		40.8		40.8
Net Ave		34.6		36.2		33.6		36.6

Punt Ret Yds	211		303		134		503
Number		31 (14 FC)	37 (20 FC)	29 (10 FC)	50 (13 FC)
Average		6.8		8.2		4.6		10.1

KO Ret Yds	1108		850		1438		665
Number 		56		51		78		38
Average		19.8		16.7		18.4		17.5

Penalties	97		83		99		73
Yards		667		608		742		488

Fumbles/lost	34/20		32/19		33/16		25/18

TDS		22		31		19		52
Rushing		9		5		4		29
Passing		11		25		14		21
Returns		2		1		1		2

PATs		19/21		30/31		19/19		51/52
FGs		20/29		29/42		16/22		27/31
Safeties	0		1		0		1

Points		211		305		181		446

Comment:  The offense showed slight improvement in almost all areas this year
and where it regressed, it wasn't particularly significant.  One of the more
significant things to me was the play of the special teams.  Bad though it may
have been at time, it was still an improvement over last year.  It at least 
narrowed the spread between what we got and what we gave up.  On offense, the
most significant negative figure is sacks allowed.

The significant improvements on defense were in rushing yards and points.  The
passing defense regressed, pointing out the need to solidify the defensive back-
field and pass rush.  The passing defense did cut down on the big play by quite
a bit, so that helped.
    

John,

Since I didn't see all their games this year, I'd be interested in how
many close games (let's say TD or less) they lost this year.

I think I remember two games where they were driving but just ran out
of time.

As any Giants fan would know, the difference between winning a significant
number of those close games, and losing them, is the difference between
a Bowl win, and making the playoffs...


'Saw

    Won the Colts game by 9.  
    Lost the Browns game by 20.
    Lost to Pittsburgh by 14.
    Beat Houston with 6 seconds left
    Lost to Phoenix by 14
    Lost to Miami by 10
    Beat Minnesota by 3 in OT
    Lost to Denver by 3.
    Lost to Buffalo by 5
    Lost to Miami by 10
    Lost to Jets by 7
    Beat Buffalo by 3
    Lost to Denver by 17
    Beat Colts by 6 in OT
    Beat Jets by 3
    Lost to Cincinnati by 22
    
    Given the scores and the way the games went we could have been anywhere
    from 2-14 to 10-6.  6-10 is right in the middle.
    
    John

>    Given the scores and the way the games went we could have been anywhere
>    from 2-14 to 10-6.  6-10 is right in the middle.
    
That's kind of what I thought, but I didn't trust my memory.

To me, the Houston game had to be the MOST exciting...


Mac should be getting CoY, since he turned these boys around big time....


'Saw